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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/817/10800/PFawcettK1701.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/817/10800/AFawcettK170926.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Fawcett, Ken
K Fawcett
Description
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An oral history interview with Ken Fawcett. He flew operations as an air gunner with 617 and 227 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fawcett, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr Kenneth Fawcett at his home on the 26th of September 2017. I’ll just put that there. What I’ll do is if I —
KF: Switch it on and off.
DK: Yeah. I can switch it on and off.
KF: Yeah.
DK: And if I’m looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working. Ok. Ok, what [pause] just having a look at the, at your bits here I’m just wondering if we could go back a bit and just ask you what were you doing immediately before the war?
KF: I was working with the Post Office.
DK: Right. So what made you then want to join the RAF?
KF: Because I didn’t want to be called up to the Army or the Navy. Is this on?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
KF: Sorry.
DK: No. That’s ok. That’s ok.
KF: During the wartime you were called up at eighteen. If you didn’t make any preference beforehand you were posted to either, you could go in the Bevan boys which were the miners.
DK: The miners. Yeah.
KF: You could go in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force. If you volunteered for any particular job then you could take that as, in your choice. So a number of us, six of us went off to the Recruiting Centre and made our choices. Three of us joined the RAF as aircrew. Two joined the Navy. And one joined the Army.
DK: And were these six, were they your friends then were they?
KF: They were all my working colleagues.
DK: Working colleagues from, from the Post Office.
KF: From the Post Office.
DK: Right.
KF: And we were then, having made our choices we were left to be called up eventually as we got nearer to eighteen.
DK: And then what happened then? Did you have to go off for your initial training somewhere? Or —
KF: Well, you were called up eventually.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then you were posted to, I joined up at the Lords Cricket Ground in London.
DK: Yes. Yeah. I know it well.
KF: Do you?
DK: Yeah.
KF: That was an ACRC Recruiting Centre.
DK: Alright.
KF: And you went down there and you were billeted in the empty luxury flats in the area.
DK: Right.
KF: And we dined at the zoo restaurant.
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
KF: In Regent’s Park.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then from there you went on through the courses.
DK: So what was it like then? Was this, would this have been the first time you’d left home or —
KF: Yes. Yeah.
DK: So after your initial at Lords Cricket Ground where did you go on to after that?
KF: You were then sent to 17 ITW at Bridlington.
DK: Right.
KF: Which was like a, an introduction to the, you did the square bashing.
DK: Square bashing.
KF: And kitting out and one thing and another.
DK: What did you think of the square bashing?
KF: Came naturally because I’d already done two and a half years in the Home Guard.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
KF: So that was, I joined the Home Guard when I was sixteen. And at seventeen, eighteen and, seventeen, eighteen and a half you were called up.
DK: Right. And what year would that have been?
KF: ’43.
DK: ’43. Yeah.
KF: September ’43.
DK: So, after Bridlington where did you go on to then?
KF: After Bridlington went to Northern Ireland.
DK: Oh right.
KF: Which was the Air Gunnery School.
DK: Right.
KF: And —
DK: So, by this time they’d already decided what trade you were going to be in.
KF: No. That was decided for you at, at the Doncaster Recruiting Centre.
DK: Right.
KF: I had to go for PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
KF: And then while I was waiting for call up I realised or I found out that to become a pilot was a two year course and being ’43 and being eighteen and naive I wrote to them and asked them for to reassign me to the shortest course which was air gunnery.
DK: Right.
KF: Because at that time I had ambition to get in the war.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Stupidly. But so they did and of course I got called up to go to a Gunnery School.
DK: Right.
KF: So Northern Ireland. Bishop’s Court —
DK: Right.
KF: Was an Air Gunnery School with Ansons.
DK: Right. So, when you got to the Ansons then would that have been the first time you’d actually —
KF: Flown.
DK: Actually flown.
KF: Fascinating really. Because what they did was they took seven pupils up in an Anson and I was fortunate to get the co-pilot’s seat.
DK: Right.
KF: And in the Anson the pilot said, ‘There’s a handle down by the side of your seat.’ You know it do you? And he said, ‘You wind it up and you watch the lights and when they turn green we’ve got them locked.’
DK: Can you remember how many times you had to turn the —
KF: About a hundred. And of course I’m down here winding this and looking at the lights and by the time we I looked up we were about a thousand feet up in the air. So I never saw my first —
DK: Take-off.
KF: Take-off.
DK: Oh no.
KF: But it was interesting.
DK: So, what did you think of the Anson then? Was that [unclear]
KF: It was, it was interesting because it was my first flying and funnily enough I, we used to get kitted out with a flying suit and parachute and I said to the instructor one day, ‘You never bring a parachute. Why is that?’ He said, ‘I’ll tell you, son,’ he said, ‘If you jumped out at this height you’d never survive.’ So we were always down time taking parachutes. But that was only an aside, you know.
DK: So what would you, at the Gunnery School then were you introduced to the gun? The guns you were going to be using before the first flight.
KF: Yeah. You had to learn all the parts of the gun.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you had to be able to strip a gun down and reassemble it.
DK: So, can you remember what type of weapons they were?
KF: It was a Browning 303.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Air cooled. And the Anson had a gun turret on.
DK: Right.
KF: And you took your turn in the gun turret and the ammunition belt had been tipped. The bullets had been tipped with paint of different colours.
DK: Right.
KF: So that you may be designated the blue tips. And when you fired at a drogue that was being flown by another aircraft, when the drogue was taken to the ground and counting the holes in the drogue the blue paints would show up and you’d be credited with those hits.
DK: Yeah. Was it something that came naturally to you?
KF: Well, being in the Home Guard for two years I’d been firing Bren guns and Thompson sub-machine guns and throwing grenades and, and anti-tank mortars. So, you know at sixteen and seventeen we were playing soldiers anyway.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So with ammunition and firing it became second nature.
DK: So, after the Gunnery School then where did you go on to next?
KF: That’s what I got this for.
DK: Ah. Say for the tape that’s your force’s logbook —
KF: Sorry.
DK: That’s ok.
KF: Bridlington. Oh yes. Bridgnorth. 1650 Conversion. No. Number 1, Elementary Air Gunnery School at Bridgnorth in Shropshire.
DK: Right. So that was more advanced.
KF: That was more advanced training. More square bashing. More fatigues and what have you.
DK: Right. And what aircraft were based there? Was that —
KF: No. There was no flying there.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So it was purely just gunnery training.
KF: In fact, I think I’ve got these the wrong way around. It was London, Bridlington, Bridgnorth and then [pause] yeah. I haven’t got them in order. 12 Air Gunnery School. 17 OTU. That was at Silverstone. So, yeah. We did Bridgnorth and then [pause] That’s right. Bridgnorth and then Silverstone.
DK: Right.
KF: 17 OTU.
DK: Right. So, Bridgnorth first. Then Silverstone.
KF: Yeah.
DK: And that was 17 Operational Training Unit.
KF: Right.
DK: Right. And, and is that where you would have met your crew then? All the rest of your crew.
KF: We were taken to a station in the Midlands. I forget the name of the one. And you were taken into an assembly room and there were twenty pilots, twenty navigators, forty gunners because there are two gunners to a crew.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And twenty wireless operators. And the pilots were told to wander around and go to each trade and select a member of a crew. If a pilot approached you and asked you and you didn’t like the look of him you could say no. If you liked him you’d say yes and then he would go on to find a wireless operator or the, whatever crew he hadn’t yet selected.
DK: And this was all mixed together regardless of rank.
KF: Yeah. Completely.
DK: And just by trade.
KF: And you were entirely free to say yes or no to the guy.
DK: How did you think that worked? Because it’s quite unusual in the military. It seems a very relaxed way of —
KF: Oh, it was. It was unique to the military. Instead of being told you would do this or that you were given the choice because I think in the sense that if your life was on the line and you didn’t like the guy you were going to have to live with you were given the option of declining. Although face to face it’s a first instinct. If you sort of, it’s an attitude when you first meet somebody.
DK: Yes.
KF: You have a feeling.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And this fella came along in dark blue because the Australians were, were in dark blue uniform whereas we were in light blue. And he came along and asked if I cared to join his crew. I looked at him and he had his Australian colleague with him who was the wireless operator and I just thought oh it’s different. ‘Yeah. Ok.’
DK: Ok. Just for the tape can you remember their names?
KF: Yeah. Ken Allen.
DK: Ken Allen was the pilot.
KF: Was the pilot.
DK: Yeah. And —
KF: And he was from Melbourne in Australia.
DK: And the wireless operator?
KF: And the wireless operator was a Bill Eudey.
DK: Right.
KF: He was Australian. He was from Melbourne.
DK: Right.
KF: And the pilot at that time was a flight sergeant.
DK: Right.
KF: He subsequently got promoted to commissioned rank.
DK: Right. And can you remember the name of the second gunner that joined your crew?
KF: Yeah. Mike Clegg. Mike Clegg from [pause] Rotherham.
DK: Right.
KF: In Yorkshire.
DK: We’re missing one. Is the other one the navigator?
KF: The navigator was a guy from London. But subsequently we lost him because he couldn’t keep up with the training.
DK: Oh. Ok.
KF: So we had a different navigator when we eventually went on to ops.
DK: And can you remember his name?
KF: His name was —
DK: We can come back to it. It’s alright.
KF: Yeah. I’m looking. Where’s the photograph?
DK: Is he there?
KF: No. That’s, that’s have you got this to switch off or not?
DK: Yeah. I can pause it. It’s ok.
[recording paused]
DK: Right. So looking at the photograph here from right to left.
KF: Mike Clegg.
DK: Mike Clegg. Yeah.
KF: That was the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
KF: He was from Preston. That was the flight engineer. Ken Mepham from Manchester.
DK: Ken.
KF: Mepham.
DK: Mepham. Yeah.
KF: That was the second bomb aimer because that first bomb aimer Kirk Kent.
DK: Right.
KF: Had a nervous breakdown during the course of the ops.
DK: Oh. Ok.
KF: So he came back with the photograph.
DK: Right.
KF: But he was on our twenty seventh op.
DK: Right.
KF: So he did twenty six and then he did twenty seven to thirty six. That was Bill Eudey, the Australian wireless operator.
DK: Right.
KF: Ground crew. Ground crew. Ground crew. And myself.
DK: And who’s that down there?
KF: That’s the pilot.
DK: That’s the pilot. And the pilot’s name?
KF: Ken Allen.
DK: Ken Allen. So these are two bomb aimers then. That one and that one
KF: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And he had a nervous breakdown.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Right.
KF: He was on the train going home on leave. He was on the train and had a collapse on the train. So he was off then for several weeks.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then we finished our tour while he was having hospital treatment.
DK: Right. With, with the replacement bomb aimer.
KF: With, yeah.
DK: Right. Ok. So if I could just take you back to the Operational Training Unit then. Number 17.
KF: 17 OTU.
DK: 17 OTU.
KF: Silverstone.
DK: So what type of aircraft were you training on then?
KF: Wellingtons. Twin engine Wellingtons.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington as a, as an aircraft?
KF: We went from Silverstone. We were there for a week and then we were sent to Turweston, which was the satellite airfield where there were also Wellingtons. On the morning we arrived, about 11 o’clock we went to the mess. We had lunch. We came out and we were going up to the flights and it was in a lane and we heard a Wellington landing. So we went to a gap in the hedge, watched the Wellington land and take off again on circuits and bumps.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And sadly the pilot pulled the plane up too steeply, stalled and crashed. So our first sight of a Wellington was one coming down on its tail and all eleven onboard were killed.
DK: That was —
KF: So we, we looked at the pilot and thought how clever is he?
DK: That must have made you all a bit nervous about what was to come.
KF: Well, you didn’t get nervous really. You just simply thought well, but that was the first we’d saw of the Wellington. You know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Anyway, we, we eventually did some of the training there. Then we were sent back to Silverstone to complete the training.
DK: Right.
KF: So each trade was working with the pilot as a student pilot.
DK: Right.
KF: With a trainee, with a instructor alongside.
DK: So you’d have the instructor pilot, your pilot as trainee and the rest of the crew there.
KF: That’s right.
DK: So had you decided which gun position you were going to take?
KF: Well, on the, on the Wellington there was only a rear turret.
DK: Right.
KF: There was no mid-upper turret. And we weren’t particularly designated to any particular one. So throughout the tour we used to switch.
DK: Right.
KF: Sometimes I’d go in the mid upper turret. Sometimes I’d go in the rear turret.
DK: So this training then at the OTU that was mostly circuit and bumps.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Cross country.
KF: Yeah. Yeah. It was mostly really for bomb aiming when the Wellington would fly over the predetermined bombing range on the, on the coast. Used to fly out to the coast at Lincoln.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And near the Wash somewhere. And the bomb aimer would then drop the practice bombs and he would get a qualification depending how good he was.
DK: And at this point can you remember were you beginning to feel confident with your crew? Or were you beginning to gel and —
KF: Oh yes. You got on very well. If you hadn’t got on well you would apply for a move.
DK: Right.
KF: But no. We all got on fine and eventually you did everything as a crew. When you went to the pub you all went together. And when you went for a meal you all went together. Basically.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But your crew because your lives depended on each other you became quite associated with one another.
DK: So after the OTU then where did you go on to then?
KF: Lanc Finishing School.
DK: Right.
KF: Where the pilot was particularly trained to switch from twin engine to four engine.
DK: And would that be the point when your flight engineer joined you?
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
KF: No. Sorry. There was, before the Lanc Finishing School there was an OT.
DK: It was at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
KF: That’s right. Yeah. Convert. Conversion Unit.
DK: Can you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit it was?
KF: Wigsley, Wigsley.
DK: Wigsley. Yeah.
KF: Yeah. And —
DK: And was that —
KF: That was the conversion from twin engine to four engine.
DK: Right.
KF: And then from there we went to the Lanc Finishing School to give the pilot training from radial engine to Lancaster.
DK: So, at the Heavy Conversion Unit what four engine bombers —
KF: Stirling.
DK: Stirlings. Right. Ok. And what did you think of the Stirling?
KF: Well, not being the pilot particularly, we were passengers.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So each aircraft didn’t matter to us particularly.
DK: Yeah.
KF: As gunners.
DK: And on the Stirling did you train in the mid-upper and the rear turret?
KF: Yeah. There was the mid upper and rear.
DK: Yeah. So after the Heavy Conversion Unit on Stirlings you then went to the Lancaster Finishing School.
KF: The Lanc Finishing School.
DK: For the pilot. For the Lancaster.
KF: That’s right. For the pilot to convert.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And I’m not sure what stage, before Lanc Finishing School or after you were posted to a particular group.
DK: Right.
KF: And we were fortunate in the sense that we were posted 5 Group which was considered the elite group of the Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: Because 5 Group was at Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With —
DK: Ralph Cochrane.
KF: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah
KF: Yeah.
DK: So you were quite pleased about that then, were you? Did they —
KF: Oh yes. Yeah.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Because to be sent on the Lancaster as opposed to the Halifax.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because you know the Halifax was slower and it was more vulnerable. So to get on to Lancasters we were quite happy.
DK: And then your first squadron was?
KF: First?
DK: Your first squadron.
KF: 619 Squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: At Dunholme Lodge.
DK: Dunholme Lodge.
KF: Just outside Lincoln.
DK: Yeah.
KF: It’s now a school. I think.
DK: Yeah. I actually drove through there quite recently.
KF: Did you?
DK: it’s all farms now.
KF: Is it?
DK: The airfield’s long gone. Right. So this was your first operational squadron then?
KF: 619 was. Yes.
DK: 619, at Dunholme Lodge. And did you like the squadron as you joined? Was it —
KF: It was very basic.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you were in Nissen huts, and there was sufficient beds in one Nissen hut for two crews. And one crew would have one end of the room.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the other crew would have the other end of the room and you just simply got on with each other. But sadly, very often the crew in the other end of the hut would go missing so another crew would come in. And that was the [pause] you just shrugged and —
DK: Yeah.
KF: Tough. Sort of thing.
DK: So on your first operational squadron then can you remember much about your first operation?
KF: My first operation I was called to operate with another crew.
DK: Right.
KF: Yeah. One of their gunners had gone sick so I was called up to make up their crew.
DK: Yeah. Would you mind if I close the door? There’s a bit of drilling going on outside.
KF: Is there? Yeah.
DK: Yeah. It’s picking up on the [unclear] is that alright?
[pause]
DK: That’s it. Somebody had a, somebody had a drill going.
KF: Did they?
DK: Yeah. Sorry. So your first operation then you flew with another crew.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KF: It was a daylight op to Le Havre submarine pens.
DK: Right. And at, so as an extra gunner then where did you actually sit because you couldn’t obviously both get in the turret. Did you just sort of swap places with him?
KF: At what stage?
DK: Well, you’re with another crew at this point.
KF: Yeah, but their gunner had gone sick so I was sitting in his turret.
DK: Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. I thought you meant —
KF: He wasn’t flying. He wasn’t flying so I took his place.
DK: You were a replacement gunner.
KF: I was a replacement gunner.
DK: So how did that make you feel then? Flying out with a different crew then on your first operation?
KF: You just got on with them. You just simply fitted in and they accepted you and you accepted them. There was no, no embarrassment at all.
DK: Yeah. So when was your first operation then with your actual crew? Was that the next one?
KF: The next one was a daylight to Brest. That was a, so throughout the whole tour I had always done one more than they had —
DK: Right.
KF: You know, I was one ahead of them. It was interesting because when I came back, ‘What was it like? What was it like?’ And of course when you flew from Lincoln to Le Havre this was in September and of course D-Day was in June.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you flew over the Channel and saw the battleships shelling the French coast.
DK: Right.
KF: It was quite spectacular because it was daylight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And of course Le Havre was a short hop over France so you weren’t in too much of a, you got the odd ack ack but nothing special.
DK: So as your operations have progressed then can you remember the different targets you were sent too?
KF: Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember them all really.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Not necessarily in order but the first, the third operation was a night one to Munchen Gladbach.
DK: Right. So that would have been your first time over Germany then.
KF: This was the first time over Germany and of course it was spectacular because it was night time and you saw all the fires and the explosions and it was all like a bit of a firework display. In fact, I called the navigator and I said, ‘Terry,’ Terry Fellowes, that was the navigator —
DK: Terry Fellowes. Right.
KF: Terry Fellowes.
DK: Terry Fellowes. The navigator, yeah.
KF: And he was always in, the navigator worked in a curtained off area.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With lights on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the lights had to be shielded from outside to save giving your position away. So he looked out and he blamed me after that. He said, ‘I wish I’d never looked out,’ he said. And he said throughout the rest of the tour he never did look out.
DK: Look out.
KF: But of course as gunners we were seeing everything, you see.
DK: Yeah. So, as a, as a gunner then this might sound a silly question but what was your actual role as part of that crew? What was your job?
KF: Your main basic job was a lookout. Particularly in the dark because you’d have seven or eight hundred aircraft all flying along in the dark with no lights on and you particularly had to have good night vision.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because you could see, you might be flying along for a while and suddenly see some sparks and when you looked up you discerned another aircraft only fifty, sixty feet away. So you’d then call the pilot up. Warn him that there was another aircraft to the port or starboard. Wherever. And he would veer away slightly and you would sit, then you would tell him yes ok you were out of range. And of course you were looking out for enemy aircraft. The difference in the dark sky is very minimal between seeing something and not seeing something.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you had to have good night vision to see a black shadow against a slightly less black background. And then you had to recognise the shape. And if the shape was an enemy aircraft you’d got to decide whether to move away or attack or whatever. If he was doing no harm you left him alone because he had a bigger gun than you did.
DK: Right. So the intention would be you wouldn’t want to draw attention to yourself if you saw an enemy aircraft and he wasn’t behind you.
KF: If he wasn’t, if he wasn’t aware of your presence you kept schtum because if you fired your gun every fifth round of the belt was an incendiary. And it was an incendiary to aid you to know why you were firing. But at the same time it gave your position away.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So that if you fired when you didn’t need to and then the enemy aircraft could say, ‘Hello. I didn’t know you were there. I’ll go for you.’ So you kept quiet. If he saw you and you attacked, he attacked then you’d call the pilot up and call him to veer and corkscrew port or starboard. If the aircraft was coming in from the starboard you dived in to him.
DK: Right.
KF: If he was diving from the port you dived in to him. And the pilot, you’d call the pilot up and just simply shout quickly, ‘Corkscrew. Starboard. Go.’ And the pilot never stopped to ask. He just went.
DK: Right.
KF: And then he did a corkscrew. You know what a corkscrew is?
DK: Yeah. I do.
KF: And he’d do the corkscrew until you felt you’d got rid of him and then he would get back on to course. And the navigator then would curse and swear at you because everything had gone up in the air. His plan, maps and pencils and everything else shot up in the air.
DK: Yeah. So, you were actually attacked by German aircraft.
KF: Oh, you could. Yeah. On several occasions.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: So you, you simply got out of the way because they had cannons which had a six hundred yard range.
DK: Yeah.
KF: We had 303s which had a three hundred yard range. So if you fired at him he could stay further away and hit you and you couldn’t reach him.
DK: Did any of these German attacks ever damage the aircraft or did you always always manage to —
KF: Not, not to, well I say not to our knowledge. We sometimes came back and there was holes in the aircraft. Whether they were shrapnel or bullet holes you never really discerned.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The ground staff would have known because they were having to repair them. But when you got out of after coming back from a raid there were very often holes in the aircraft from either bullets or shrapnel.
DK: Right. But you never came back severely damaged though.
KF: Not severely damaged.
DK: No.
KF: But the amazing thing to me was that seven of us in an aircraft. We came back with holes in the aircraft but none of them ever hit anybody. Not one of the aircraft, not one of the crew was hit with any bit or injured.
DK: Right. So how many operations did you do with 619?
KF: We did nine with 619.
DK: Right.
KF: And then they wanted to form a new squadron so they took the best or the experienced crews from 619 and they also took the experienced half the crew, half the squadron and the other half was taken from a squadron at Bardney and they were sent to Strubby. And then from Strubby we went down to Balderton where we formed 227 Squadron. And then from ten ‘til thirty six we did at Balderton.
DK: Right. So you did thirty six operations altogether.
KF: Well, a tour was thirty.
DK: Right.
KF: And every four weeks of flying you were sent on ten days leave. So we thought right if we do twenty eight we’ll go on leave for ten days, come back, do two and we’ll get to our next leave. So we were being clever to get two lots of leave in quick succession.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When we came back from the twenty eight ops thinking we’d two to do and we arrived back on station and we were told that they had increased the tour from thirty to thirty five because of the bad weather down the training line was stopping new crews coming up the line. So we had seven to do.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And sadly when you went to the flight and looked at the casualty board while we’d been away somebody had done thirty one and shot down. Thirty two, shot down. If they had finished their tour at thirty they would have survived.
DK: They’d have survived.
KF: So there was a bit of an ironic situation.
DK: How did that, can you remember how that made you feel at the time?
KF: Well, you’re invincible at eighteen. Anybody else was going to.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When you saw an aircraft being shot down over target you just simply said, ‘Well not me. Tough mate.’ You know.
DK: So you did, so the rest of your crew did thirty five but you did the —
KF: I did the odd one.
DK: Extra one at thirty six, yeah.
KF: What I didn’t realise until much later was that I could have called off at thirty five but I carried on with my crew without question.
DK: So, could, could you talk through sort of what an operation would be like. A night time one. Presumably they got you up quite late during the day and then you’d, would you do a sort of training mission during the day with the aircraft? Or —
KF: Yes. You did what they called the pre-flight test.
DK: Right.
KF: You would, the morning would [pause] in the morning the pilot would go to the flights and look at the Battle Order. If he was on and the aircraft he was designated to then we would go out to that aircraft and make sure everything was in working order and then he would do a pre-flight test of about ten minutes, fifteen minutes. Check that it was, sounded all right. The radio operator would contact base and make sure —
DK: Yeah.
KF: The radio was working. And we would just make sure the guns were, were working. We didn’t actually fire them but you made sure that the mechanism was working. And then you landed. Then you went to a meal. Then you would come back and get briefed. And then you would go to the aircraft and wait for take-off and then when the green light went up you took off.
DK: What was it like at the briefings though when you saw what your target was going to be? Was it —
KF: Well, you went in to, all the buildings were Nissen huts.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And this was the biggest style of Nissen hut. And you went in and it was seated. Benches and chairs. And you were looking at the stage and the whole of the back of the stage was covered with a big curtain. And when the CO and the briefing crew came along you stood up to attention. The guy, the CO told you, ‘Sit down.’ And then the curtains were drawn back. And then you would see the whole map of Europe and a tape would be from base to the target.
DK: Right.
KF: During the course of the day you established from the ground crew how much petrol they were putting in. If it was a little, a small amount they could put more bombs. If it was a long target, a long range target it reduced the amount of bombs you could take because there was more petrol.
DK: Petrol.
KF: So if the petrol load was high you knew it was a long way.
DK: Yeah.
KF: If the petrol load was low you knew it was a shorter one.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So when you looked at the map you have a preconceived idea that it was going to be a long one or a short one.
DK: Yeah.
KF: If it was long one it was obviously going to be in to, in to Germany. One particular one was Gdynia. Which was in Poland.
DK: And that was your longest.
KF: Ten and a half hours that one.
DK: Ten and a half hours.
KF: Five hours out and five hours back. And but if it was a short one it would be something like Le Havre or Brest or —
DK: Yeah.
KF: Any of the occupied countries. You know.
DK: So before, you had a pre-flight meal presumably before you went.
KF: Well, you just had a normal meal.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But as aircrew you were privileged in that you could have as much milk as you liked.
DK: Right.
KF: Where, I’m talking, that’s surprising but milk was in short supply at the time. So being privileged you could drink as much milk as you liked. You could eat, you could ask for anything you wanted from catering.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That was available.
DK: So basically you get the green light and off you go. For take-off then where were you? Were you in the turret or were you in the —
KF: You were in the turret.
DK: Right.
KF: But you had to centralise them and, and not swivel them because that would unbalance the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When you were taking off. The pilot could feel you if you were swinging the guns about. So you sat with your guns centralised.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you just took off down the runway and got airborne. Once you were airborne then you could swivel your turrets.
DK: Yeah. And what was that like though? Being sort of dragged backwards as it were.
KF: Didn’t really, didn’t I don’t think there was anything. It’s just like sitting on the train backwards.
DK: So you would be in the turret for the entire time.
KF: Oh yeah. You never. It wasn’t wise to leave the turret.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you stayed in it. But if you were over friendly territory there was in the aircraft there was what they called an elsan which was a chemical toilet. And if needed to go to the loo you could go.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But being in a flying suit as the gunner you had four layers of clothing on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you would, you made sure you didn’t need to go to the loo.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You made sure before you put your suit on.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That you’d drained yourself.
DK: Did you have electrical heated suits?
KF: Yeah.
DK: You did. Yeah. And were they any good because I’ve heard different stories.
KF: Oh yes. They were good. No. They were good.
DK: Yeah.
KF: In fact, sometimes they would, I remember once getting my foot slipper was getting too hot and there were studs at the back of the heel fitting on to the suit, and I just disconnected it.
DK: Yeah. What was it like being in the rear turret then? Was it, because you are cut off from the rest of the crew. Was it a little, a little lonely there? Or were you —
KF: Well, you could always call up on, on the intercom. You never felt. I mean the rear turret was behind the tail so you were hanging over the back and you could see the tail struts were out here somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You’re out in space really. You’re in a, in a Perspex dome.
DK: And do you remember much about as you reached the target and the bombs dropping and what happened to the aircraft then?
KF: Oh yeah. I mean the pilot, the navigator in particular, to get seven hundred aircraft over the target they were all give a different direction to come in so that they weren’t all falling over one another. So every aircraft would come in at a certain time at a certain angle to make sure that they all dropped over the target but they were all zigzagging about. So you would be [pause] the navigator would tell the pilot what course to fly. He would fly the course. Then eventually he would see the target because it had already been marked by the Pathfinders.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Or it was already in flames anyway. So as you approached the target on the heading that you had already been given, no, the navigator had been given. At the height the bomb aimer would be laying on the front nose looking through the bombsight and as he got closer to the target he would direct the pilot. The navigator would fall out of the equation and the bomb aimer would take over and tell the pilot, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Right. Steady.’ Got him on. And then when the pilot, when the bomb aimer was over the target he would press the tit, shout, ‘Bombs gone,’ and the aircraft would lift up. You could feel it. But what you had to do as gunners you had to make sure that the guy above you wasn’t directly above you dropping on — several aircraft got lost on targets by other aircrew dropping their bombs on the aircraft below.
DK: So, as, as the bomb run was happening you were looking up there and there and there right up to —
KF: Well, you were looking left, right and centre. And if you, two aircraft on the route from base to the target some aircraft would be two minutes later than they should have been or two minutes earlier. So there would always be a little bit of congestion over the target.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The worst thing that could happen when you were over the target was not being able to drop the bombs and then you were shouted, ‘Bomb bays closed. Go around again.’ So you had to go around again whilst everybody is shooting at you. Because the guy above you was going to drop his bombs on you.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And so you would tell the pilot and he would drop back a bit and then the guy above you would drop his bombs past you. But sometimes because the guy above didn’t want to go around again he wouldn’t care that you were underneath him.
DK: Yeah.
KF: He would drop them and hope they didn’t hit you. But that was one of the hard facts of life.
DK: So you dropped your bombs on target. You were heading for home now.
KF: After you’ve dropped your bombs the bomb aimer and the pilot had to continue for another thirty seconds on a straight and level course to allow the flash, photo flash to trigger over the target and it took a photograph of where the bomb aimer had dropped his bombs.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And then after thirty seconds of level you could fall off and then the navigator would give the pilot a course to set for home.
DK: Yeah. So you’re setting back for home then. How, how are you feeling as you approached the airfield? Was it a sense of — ?
KF: Well, you left the target but you still had to be alert.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because when if an enemy aircraft was above you he could see you silhouetted against the flames below.
DK: Right.
KF: So he could come down on you when he, and what he would often do was go under you. There was a bit of a fallacy that the rear gunner is in the most endangered position.
DK: Right.
KF: Not necessarily so because an enemy aircraft depending on which angle he’s coming at you isn’t necessarily going to kill the rear gunner first.
DK: Right.
KF: He could come in from the side and as you possibly well know there was what they called schrage musik. And the enemy aircraft had a gun —
DK: Yeah.
KF: At an angle. And he would come underneath you and fire into the wing.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Where the petrol tanks were. And the first you knew of it was where the wing took off. You know. And so periodically you would get the pilot to tilt over so you could look underneath and then look underneath again.
DK: You never saw anybody coming up to shoot you from below then when you [unclear]
KF: No. No. No
DK: No. I guess, yeah, so when you got back home then what was the feeling as you got back off an operation?
KF: You were only relieved when the wheels touched down. You were always looking out for, at one time, particularly during the end of the war a lot of the German aircraft used to follow the bomber crews in when their airfield was lit up and they were landing on the runway. When they were wheels down and flaps down.
DK: Yeah.
KF: They were at their most vulnerable because they couldn’t manoeuvre and the enemy pilot who’d followed him in would then shoot him down and several aircraft sadly were lost —
DK: Right.
KF: On the approach to the runway. So you never gave up until you actually wheeled down.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And hit the runway.
DK: Yeah. Is it ok if I have a look at the old logbook? [pause] I just wondered if I have a look at the various operations there.
KF: Red were night ops.
DK: Red for night ops. Yeah.
KF: Green were daylights.
DK: So that —
KF: And black was flying.
DK: This is just for the recording. So that’s the Lancaster Finishing School.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Syerston. So then 619 squadron. So that’s Allen. Your —
KF: Flight Sergeant Allen.
DK: Your pilot. So, that’s the first operation was to Brest. Wasn’t it?
KF: Yeah
DK: So with a different pilot. Franks.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. [unclear]
KF: And then the next one was Le Havre. Was it Le Havre?
[pause]
DK: I’ve got Darmstadt.
KF: Sorry?
DK: Darmstadt.
KF: No, that’s, there’s another one.
DK: Oh, here we go. Le Havre.
KF: Later on. That’s it.
DK: Gun positions.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So the Brest operation was on the 2nd of September.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Then Le Havre.
KF: That was the first one with my crew.
DK: The first one with your crew. 10th of September. And then the 11th of September your first night operation to Darmstadt.
KF: Darmstadt. That’s right.
DK: So there’s Darmstadt. Munchen Gladbach.
KF: And then Munchen Gladbach.
DK: So most, most of the German cities here aren’t there? Ops to Bergen. Was that —
KF: Norway.
DK: Norway. Right.
KF: Norway.
DK: So that’s with, that was Balderton. So you joined Balderton with 227 Squadron in October ’44. [pause] So there’s a Dortmund Ems canal.
KF: Yeah.
DK: So that was two operations there then.
KF: Oh, we went there several times.
DK: Several times. Right.
KF: The idea was you, there was a high point between Dortmund and Ems.
DK: Right.
KF: And the idea was to break the banks, drain the canal and none of the barges could travel from Dortmund to Ems.
DK: Right.
KF: With material for the war production. So they kept going back and of course when they built the, when they repaired the dam and the water went back in again you went back again and burst it again.
DK: Right.
KF: So that’s why we kept going back to the Dortmund Ems Canal.
DK: You went there on the 4th of November. Then again the 6th of November.
KF: Went back three or four times I think.
DK: Yeah. Then Munich, 27th of November.
KF: Three times to Munich.
DK: Three times Munich. There’s a recall there I see. The Urft Dam.
KF: Urft Dam. Yeah.
DK: U R F T Dam. Yeah.
KF: Gdynia.
DK: Gdynia.
KF: That was Poland.
DK: Yeah. So Gdynia was on the 18th of December. Oh. So you did Munich on the 17th of December. And then Gdynia the next day. The 18th of December.
KF: Yeah. Two long ones. Because Munich was right down in the far end of Germany.
DK: Then the 30th of December there’s ops to I’ll spell this out for the recording H O U F F.
KF: Houffalize.
DK: ALIZE. Houffalize. The Dortmund Ems Canal again on January the 1st.
KF: Yeah.
DK: So, Houffalize again.
KF: You see, Royan. That one is a coastal town in France.
DK: Right.
KF: And when the D-Day landing took place they went down. The Americans went down the peninsula and Royan was in a German garrison but because the Americans went down so fast they were —
DK: Cut off.
KF: Cut off.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the French were complaining that the Germans were going out in to the countryside and rustling for food and one thing and another so they asked for, and the garrison was too big for the French Resistance to take on so they asked us to go down and —
DK: Bomb them.
KF: Bomb them. But the point I’m getting around to is that the briefing by the meteorological officer was completely wrong, and when. Because it was only a pocket in France and the country around about was already occupied by us —
DK: Yeah.
KF: We didn’t do a deviation. We went straight to the target. The wind speed given by the meteorological officer was wrong and there was a huge tailwind which got us there early. And we flew over Royan about six or seven minutes early for the bomb aiming, for the bombing and there were no markers down so we didn’t know where we were. So when we’d over shot the target we had to turn around and come back because it was fatal because every other aircraft was still coming.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So there was and we lost several aircraft in crashes.
DK: Collisions.
KF: Albeit there was very little anti- aircraft.
DK: So that was Royan. R O Y A N. And that’s January the 4th.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. In France.
KF: Well, if we’re going back one if you look back at December [pause] December we were out on New Year’s Eve. December 31st. 30th.
DK: No. That’s the 18th there.
KF: Sorry?
DK: 30th. Yeah.
KF: That was the, that was—
DK: Houffalize.
KF: The [pause] when the Germans broke through. You know the Battle of the Bulge.
DK: Oh, the Battle of the Bulge. Oh right. Ok.
KF: That was the Battle of the Bulge.
DK: Right. So that’s —
KF: And what date was that?
DK: 30th of December.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Houffalize.
KF: The night before the New Year. Night before New Year.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So Politz.
KF: Politz.
DK: Politz on —
KF: That was in Czechoslovakia.
DK: Yeah. So Politz again there. Dresden on the 13th of February.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember, do you remember much about that?
KF: The famous Dresden raid.
DK: Do you remember much about that operation?
KF: Nothing special. Just another one. It was only afterwards that we, I mean that was this is what really appalled me. If you remember Harris. Bomber Harris, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: You know. He got no credit for doing what he did because after the war everybody was saying, ‘Look at the damage you’ve done. Oh terrible.’ So even right up until when was the Battle of Britain, not the Battle — the Bomber Command Memorial.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Seventy odd years later.
DK: Yeah. 2012 that was. Yeah.
KF: And what I’m saying is really nobody gave you credit for what you did.
DK: No.
KF: And in fact, I’ve an opinion. I’ve a theory that we did Germany a favour in a, in a odd way. When we knocked everything out of Germany I mean we flew over Germany after the war to look at the damage and it was, you might have seen photographs yourself.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: They had nothing. So they had to renew everything with new equipment to get back on their feet. And we gave them thousands. And America did. To save them going over to the Russian sphere.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: We pumped millions of pounds into Germany. They got all completely new equipment.
DK: Yeah.
KF: New factories. New houses. New, new buildings.
DK: That’s it.
KF: We’re coming back to all our old clapped out aeroplanes and trains.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And infrastructure. And Germany then went to be a very renowned engineering country.
DK: Yeah. It was the West German economic miracle wasn’t it?
KF: That’s right.
DK: But of course it was financed by the Americans and Volkswagen. Yeah.
KF: Volkswagen. Volkswagen was saved by the British Army.
DK: That’s right. Yeah.
KF: They ran it for several years after the war.
DK: Yeah. True. So then —
KF: But people forget that.
DK: Yeah.
KF: I mean Germany today in my opinion is ruling Europe.
DK: Yeah.
KF: By economic means. Whereas it tried to do it —
DK: Militarily.
KF: By military means.
DK: Yeah. So just going on then into March ’45. So you’d then got, I see the Dortmund Ems again. March the 3rd. Harburg on the 7th of March. And a place near Leipzig on the 20th of March. So, would that have been your last operation then?
KF: What was that one.
DK: Leipzig, Poland.
KF: No. That was —
DK: Bohlen.
KF: What date was that?
DK: March the 20th.
KF: No. Bohlen was the last one.
DK: Yeah. Bohlen. Yeah.
KF: Oh. Near Leipzig.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Bohlen. That was the last one.
DK: So your last operation then March the 20th.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Bohlen near Leipzig.
KF: That was their thirty fifth. My thirty sixth.
DK: Right. So that’s B O H L E N.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So the war’s come to the end then and did, did you [pause] what happened to your crew then? Did they all split up?
KF: When we finished operations. The two gunners. Myself and my other mate we were sent back to Silverstone as instructors. What you [pause] if the war had lasted longer if you did thirty ops then you did six months rest. And at that six months you were sent to a training base to train up the crews coming up the line. And then you went back for another thirty. And then you could opt out altogether or volunteer for more.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But being, being the end of the war we were at Silverstone as instructors when VE day came up.
DK: Was there any plans that you might go out to the Pacific afterwards?
KF: We were then sent to Cranwell with a view to training for Tiger Force.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But fortunately while we were at Cranwell VJ day came up.
DK: Were the atomic bombs a bit of a relief?
KF: So, oh yeah. Funnily enough there was always a fear that dropping in, dropping over Europe if you were shot down.
DK: Yes.
KF: And you could get out if you could out. Dropping out over Germany and either trying to get back through the escape channels or getting captured didn’t bear the same risks or fears that if you dropped over Borneo.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And going, thinking of going out to Japan.
DK: Get caught by the Japanese.
KF: Or the Japanese theatre you kept thinking of the bloody jungles and dropping in the trees and God knows what, you know.
DK: So did you manage to keep in touch with your crew after the war?
KF: Sadly no. It’s always with hindsight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: I suppose some crews did keep in touch but life was so quick and so you moved so quickly that we, we dispersed.
DK: Right.
KF: And didn’t keep in touch. But years later I got in on my computer and I found what they were called in Australia the Odd Bods Organisation. Have you heard of it?
DK: No. I haven’t. No. No.
KF: The odd bods. There was a lot of Australian crews, members and they flew from RAF stations. Some of them went to an Australian, purely Australian squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So when they went back to Australia after the war those who weren’t in the Australian squadron formed a group called the Odd Bods.
DK: Right. Right.
KF: They were the odd crew members —
DK: Yeah.
KF: In the British. And I got through to them and I found in their website a Roll of Honour and saw Flying Officer Allen.
DK: Oh right.
KF: Who had died. As a civilian of course.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KF: Years after this is. So I got in touch with the secretary on the computer and asked him if I could get in touch with his widow.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And I said I also knew Bill Eudey who was the wireless operator.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
KF: So he said, ‘Oh, he’s also died.’ So he said, ‘Yes, I’ll get in touch with the widows to see whether they’re happy for you to communicate with you. And they came back and said yes.
DK: Oh good.
KF: So I got in touch with them both. One was on the computer.
DK: Yeah.
KF: One wasn’t.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The pilot’s wife wasn’t computer literate so I kept in touch with her by correspondence.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But sadly since she’s died.
DK: Right.
KF: The wireless operator’s widow I speak to every morning on, every Saturday morning on Skype.
DK: Oh excellent. That’s —
KF: We have a chat you know.
DK: Yeah. There’s some good aspects to new technology isn’t there?
KF: That’s right. Yeah. The flight engineer when you got to the OC, OC [pause] whatever. Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That’s when you picked up the engineer.
DK: Right.
KF: So we picked up an engineer. A flight engineer from Manchester.
DK: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
KF: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And he eventually moved to Australia.
DK: Right.
KF: So I tried to get in touch with him. But he had died.
DK: Right.
KF: And these are all about ten years ago.
DK: Yeah. Oh, that’s a shame.
KF: So I’ve got in touch with his widow. But then she’s since died. You know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: This is what time does. We all go off the end at the end.
DK: Eventually. So all these years later looking back at your time in RAF Bomber Command how do you feel about that period of your life now? Looking back on it.
KF: How do I feel?
DK: [unclear]
KF: I suppose really being one of the fifty percent that lived you know you feel relieved that you, as I said earlier none of us got wounded at all.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So we were lucky in that sense and to survive as well was also another bonus, you know. But you see people began to get this attitude of we were cruel. We were [pause] so they didn’t want to know you. They don’t say directly but there was that undercurrent.
DK: Yeah.
KF: That you did. I mean the RAF Bomber Command was the only arm of the services that fought throughout the whole of the war.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The Navy never went out of bay, err out of port unless they had to.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The Army got defeated at Dunkirk and had two years where they were completely reforming.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So the RAF Bomber Command were the only group that kept the war going.
DK: Yeah.
KF: When everybody else was marking time.
DK: Yeah. That’s very true. Ok. I’ve just got one final question. I know I asked you this before but for the recording could we, could we just go through the crew again. Is that alright?
KF: Sorry. There’s one.
DK: Have you got one with the names?
KF: I’ve got one with all the names on. Let me go upstairs again.
DK: Are you ok doing? Are you sure? Is that alright?
KF: I’m trying to think where I put it.
DK: It might still be on the table. Put that on there again. So left, so left to right that’s Charlie Clegg.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Terry.
KF: Terry.
DK: Fellowes.
KF: Fellowes.
DK: Then it’s the rigger there presumably.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Harry Reeves. The rigger.
KF: Yeah. Harry Reeves.
DK: Then Charlie Tudor, flight mechanic.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Then Sergeant Ken —
KF: Mepham.
DK: Mepham. That’s M E P H A M.
KF: That’s right.
DK: He was the flight engineer.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Then Jack Barton.
KF: Yeah.
DK: The second bomb aimer.
KF: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Then Pilot Officer Bill —
KF: Eudey.
DK: Eudey.
KF: E U D E Y.
DK: E U D E Y. Then Corporal Scotty Scott.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Who was a fitter. Flight Sergeant Ken Fawcett.
KF: Yeah.
DK: Which is your good self.
KF: That’s right.
DK: You’re listed there as the mid-upper gunner. Yeah.
KF: That’s right. Well, the gunner. We used to do both.
DK: Yeah. And then Flight Sergeant Kirk Kent.
KF: That’s right.
DK: And then kneeling is —
KF: Flying Officer Allen.
DK: Flying Officer Ken Allen.
KF: Ken Allen.
DK: The pilot. So just going back to Kirk Kent did you ever find out anything more about him as his, when he was ill or —
KF: No. No. Things are [pause] wartime you didn’t take the same personal interest in, you simply they were there or they weren’t there.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Whilst he was in hospital we were flying operationally so we didn’t have time to bother.
DK: Right.
KF: How he was or who he was or where he was.
DK: Right. Ok. And —
KF: Movements were so fleeting.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You just came and went. People. You didn’t, you didn’t get —
DK: On that point, just one final thing as a crew did you all used to socialise outside?
KF: Oh yeah.
DK: What did you do then? Do you go to the pubs and —
KF: Yeah. You go down the pub together.
DK: Yeah.
KF: You wouldn’t necessarily all go together.
DK: No.
KF: At Balderton the air, the air [pause] the station.
DK: Yeah.
KF: The runways and all that were over the A1.
DK: Right.
KF: The living quarters were about a half a mile away down a country lane. What they used to do was to disperse everything so that if there was an attack on it everything wouldn’t go together.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So that if the living quarters was always away and the mess and everything else was away.
DK: Yeah.
KF: So you would get from the, you would simply walk or sometimes you could get a station bicycle.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And you’d cycle from one place to another. The living quarters were down a country lane which if you went down about a mile down the road was in to Balderton village.
DK: Right.
KF: Where the pub was.
DK: Right.
KF: And that was either you went to the mess or you went to the pub.
[recording paused]
DK: Well, thanks very much for that. That’s been absolutely marvellous. It’s been just over an hour.
KF: I don’t know whether it’s me or what but when I did the Duxford one they said it would only take about a quarter of an hour.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And when we ended up it was about an hour and a bit.
DK: An hour and a bit, yeah. Well, this one’s an hour and a bit so that sounds about right. Ok. Well, thanks very much for that. I’ll switch off now.
[recording paused]
KF: Flying fortresses were coming back from the daylight.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And the air was full of Maydays. They didn’t have separate navigators on every aircraft. They had a lead navigator and a back-up navigator and when they turned everybody turned.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But when they came back in dusk and it was getting dark they were panicking because they couldn’t, they didn’t have navigators to get them home.
DK: They hadn’t navigated in the dark.
KF: That’s right.
DK: What did you feel about the Americans then? Were you sort of in awe of them? Of what they were doing. Or think they were daft.
KF: Only in awe in the sense that going out one night when they were coming back they were flying a slightly, you could see them in the dark and dusk you know.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And there was holes, and the tails were flying off, wings were hanging off, engines were hanging off. And I mean they took an awful lot of hammering but that was partly their own fault because they simply wouldn’t. They didn’t. You see we were individual and we could fly. We could turn off target. Off course.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And get back on course because the navigator knew what he was doing.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But when they came off course very often they were isolated and they were picked off.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So you preferred the way the British did it then. At, at night.
KF: And when you see most of the documentaries they were always showing daylight raids by American Fortresses.
DK: Yeah.
KF: As if the Bomber Command didn’t exist.
DK: Yeah.
KF: Because everything that the bombers, the did the Americans did was in daylight.
DK: And they could film it.
KF: So the cameras could film it.
DK: Yeah.
KF: But at night time there wasn’t a lot of material.
DK: No. Did you, did you ever meet any of the American aircrew at all?
KF: No. But mind you I will admit that when some of our aircrew parachuted over an American airfield or crash landed on an American airfield in an emergency —
DK: Yeah.
KF: They usually come back loaded with, they were taken to the PX store.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And they were give free hand to take what they wanted.
DK: Oh right.
KF: So the guys used to come back with a load of goodies that we’d never seen for years.
DK: They were very generous then, were they?
KF: Oh yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
KF: But they were funny because they couldn’t discern very often when an aircrew crashed anywhere near the American field. They were apprehended.
DK: Oh right.
KF: And treated as if they were Germans.
DK: Right.
KF: Because the Americans didn’t always recognise an RAF. They had to convince them. And then they would allow them to ring the squadron.
DK: Yeah.
KF: And call for the transport to come and bring them. Once they realised they were British then they treated them.
DK: Yeah.
KF: With generosity. But they very often used to because the German Air Force blue was similar to ours.
DK: Right. Right. So they had to be wary to start with.
KF: But the Americans were quite naive you know.
DK: Well, you’d think they wouldn’t make that mistake wouldn’t you?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ken Fawcett
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFawcettK170926, PFawcettK1701
Format
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01:06:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Fawcett worked for the Post Office and served in the Home Guard for two and a half years having signed up at sixteen. He joined the Royal Air Force at Lords Cricket Ground in September 1943. He initially requested pilot training but realising the duration of training Ken transferred to air gunner which enabled him to join a squadron much sooner. Ken trained at No1 Elementary Air Gunnery School at RAF Bridgenorth and No 12 Air Gunnery School at RAF Bishops Court in Northern Ireland. He recalled gun turret training in Anson aircraft using ammunition tipped with coloured paint so that his accuracy firing at towed target drogues could be assessed. Following gunnery training Ken transferred to No 17 Operational Training Unit at RAF Syerston flying Wellingtons, he recalled his first sight of a Wellington was a training flight stalling on takeoff and crashing with the loss of all crew members. No 1654 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Wigsley brought four engine training in Stirling and Lancaster aircraft in preparation to joining 619 Squadron in 5 Group. Ken’s Crew included: Pilot Ken Alan and Wireless Operator Bill Eudey from Australia, Bomb Aimers Kirk Kent and Jack Barton, Gunner Charlie Clegg, Flight Engineer Ken Mepham and Navigator Terry Fellows. On completion of nine operations with 619 Squadron at RAF Dunholme Lodge his crew were transferred to 227 Squadron at RAF Balderton, they completed both daylight and night operations and Ken recalled seeing capital ships shelling the French coast during the D Day invasion. He described a typical operation from pre-flight test to returning to base and how they would quiz the ground crew as to how much fuel was loaded, this gave an indication of the duration of the operation that evening before the official crew briefing. Ken gives a vivid insight into the role of the rear gunner as a lookout scanning the darkness for both friendly and enemy aircraft, trying to discern dark shadows against a dark sky or sparks from an aircraft’s exhaust. The danger from collisions or another aircraft dropping its bombs from above was ever present. Opening fire he described as a last resort given the range of the enemy fighter’s cannons were twice that of his .303 machine guns, so stealth he stated was the best policy. On completion of 36 operations Ken was transferred to No 17 Operational Training Unit at RAF Syerston as an instructor and then to RAF Cranwell in preparation to join Tiger Force in the Far East. VJ Day led to the cancellation of Tiger Force before he completed his training.
Contributor
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Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Shropshire
France--Le Havre
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
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1943-09
1944
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
1654 HCU
17 OTU
227 Squadron
619 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Cook’s tour
crash
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Balderton
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/PFreemanR1801.2.jpg
bee4e64fb2e686498699c522ead3d620
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/AFreemanR180312.1.mp3
dfcfd17e510a1bd603ffdddd8c3cb840
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Freeman, Ralph
R Freeman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Ralph Reginald Freeman (1923 - 2019, 1523700 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He trained as a pilot and later flew as a flight engineer.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Susan Abbott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Freeman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Let’s try that again. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Ralph Freeman at his home on the 12th of March 2018. So, if I just put that there.
RF: Yeah.
DK: So, first of all then, if I was to- What were you doing immediately before the war?
RF: Before the war?
DK: Before the war.
RF: I was working for the BBC on the transmitters, and I was away from home because I was- I had to go into [unclear] which is too far to go to travel, and I was held back for about six months because it was in a so-called reserved occupation, and I often wonder what would have happened if I'd have got in when I volunteered. But as I say they held me back for about six months.
DK: So, can you remember which year this would of been?
RF: Yes, it, it was 19-
DK: Do you want to have a look at that?
RF: I’ve got my [paper rustles] 1942.
DK: 1942. So, what made you then, want to join the air force? Was there any particular reason?
RF: Well, I was- I hadn’t done any flying but I was in the ATC, very keen to fly, and as a- As I was in the ATC for some time and then, I volunteered for air crew. But as I say I was held back about six months before they let me go.
DK: So, what did you want to do as air crew then, were you hoping to be a pilot?
RF: I wanted to be a pilot [laughs] which I did achieve actually.
DK: Right, so can you remember going to the recruitment office?
RF: Yes, I can, I’ve got all the dates here.
DK: Oh yeah, if you want to go through those?
RF: All those, yes. I went to London ACRC on the 1st of March 1943, and I was there just over a fortnight. Then I went to Brighton, and I was in Brighton about three weeks.
DK: What were you doing in Brighton?
RF: Square bashing mostly [chuckles].
DK: What did you think of the square bashing then? Was that-
RF: I didn’t mind it, because we used to do what they called a continuity drill, where you count in numbers all the time and- Making various rules, I thought that was quite good. But, most- Funny really because there’s always somebody who took their own direction [chuckles] but, we finished up quite well on that sort of thing. So that’s what we were doing mainly in Brighton. But then, we were billeted in The Grand Hotel, which was bombed.
DK: Ah ok, yes, yes, remember that.
RF: Yeah, I can remember that very plainly, and then from there I was right to ITW at Newquay and I was there for just over three months.
DK: So, what were you doing there? Can you remember what you were doing at Newquay?
RF: Oh, at Newquay, ITW, Initial Training Wing, mostly classroom lessons. Theory of flight and controls and all that sort of thing.
DK: So, at this point you were still hoping to be a pilot then?
RF: Oh yes, oh yes, I was still hoping to be a pilot, and we finished that and from there I went to Cambridge, just for a fortnight where we had some training on Tiger Moths.
DK: Right.
RF: I wasn’t there very long.
DK: So, would that of been the first time you flew then?
RF: Yes, on the Tiger Moths, yeah.
DK: And what did you think of that then?
RF: I thought it was marvellous [chuckles] yeah.
DK: So, you only sat in the back as a passenger then?
RF: Yes, I didn’t solo then until much later on when I was on a sort of, in-between thing. Of course, I got to solo on a Tiger Moth then, yeah, and then from there- Try to see what I'm doing. Yes, went to Heaton Park as a holding- That was a holding centre for- Before we went abroad for training. I was there about three of four weeks, and then we went to Canada, in October ‘43.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
RF: Oh yes, yeah. It was a troop ship, it was the Mauretania, we went on the Mauretania and came back on the Queen Elizabeth I.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And, it was unescorted because the speed and the zig-zag [unclear] them, there was no startling[?] of runts[?] on that.
DK: So, was there many on board the Mauretania?
RF: Yes, it was quite a lot.
DK: What were conditions like on the ship then?
RF: Not too bad, not too bad. I think I had a lower bunk. I think there was about four bunks and I had a lower one but, the main thing I remember was the fact that you could go and buy sweets and things because they were all rationed at home and we thought that was- You could get chocolate and- Thought marvellous [chuckles] and- So it was quite a pleasant trip that really, but we didn’t do very much in the way of any lessons or training or anything, it was just the journey. Then, we got to- Went to Moncton which was a holding centre in New Brunswick, and from there I went to Manitoba for my EFTS flying, that was the first flying course I was put on, and at the end- That was about three or four months and eventually went to a service flying training school in Manitoba, service, was there about seven months.
DK: And this would’ve all been practical flying experience then?
RF: That’s right, yes, yes, a lot of flying and I got my wings then, at the end of that course.
DK: Can you remember what it was like then, when you first went solo?
RF: Yes, I can, I can. We were doing circuits and bumps and eventually the instructor- We pulled up outside the flight control and he jumped out and said, ‘Right, go and do one by yourself,’ and I just- I’d done plenty of it and I said- I thought it was marvellous by myself and I did these circuits and bumps no bother [chuckles]. So that was- I’ve got a record of it in here.
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft you were flying?
RF: Yes, it was a Cornell.
DK: Right, yep.
RF: [Paper rustles] My first solo was on the 16th of November 1943, yeah, and we finished that course and then I was- Went to service flying training on Ansons because they- At the end of the EFTS they graded you as to either single engine or multi-engine, and I wanted to get on single engine but wasn’t lucky.
DK: Did you see yourself as a fighter pilot then?
RF: Yeah [laughs] everybody does.
DK: So, when they said multi-engine, was that a bit of a disappointment to you? Or you just-
RF: Not really, not really a disappointment, I didn’t fret over it at all, and then we went to- [unclear], yep. EFTS, flying Ansons, yes, and I came back to this country, I was abroad about just over a year, about thirteen months.
DK: So, what was Canada like then because obviously there was the blackouts and rationing in England, what was it like when you got to Canada?
RF: Oh, marvellous, absolutely marvellous. The people were really- Well, they’d do anything for you. We- If we had a free weekend, or anything like that, they would give us an address to go to and a private house and you’d be looked after and fed and shown around, and they were most hospitable people, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it was really pleasant.
DK: Was there much to do in your off times there, did you go into the towns and?
RF: Yes, yes, we used to get forty-eight hour passes and that sort of thing, and as I say, we’d be given an address or a couple of addresses to call at and they’d put you up and feed you.
DK: What about the weather though, was it cold?
RF: It was cold, but it was a sort of a dry cold, and we had to have ear protectors because of cold. But it was- As I say, it was dry, so I coped with that alright.
DK: So, you’ve come back then, on the Queen-
RF: On the Queen Elizabeth I, yes, that, that was about six days I think, and-
DK: Can you remember where you docked when you got back?
RF: Yes, when we left, we left Greenock in Scotland.
DK: Right.
RF: And when we came back, I think it was Liverpool. I'm pretty sure it was yeah, and, where are we? Yes, went to Harrogate, to Harrogate at a sort of a holding centre for a couple of weeks, and then I went to Brough in Yorkshire and that’s where they had the Tiger Moths, we had a mess around with those for a bit.
Dk: So, you were flying on the Tiger Moths there, were you?
RF: Yeah, just before- We got our wings in Canada you see.
DK: Yeah.
RF: But I got back and hoping to get onto a squadron, but instead of that they sent me to St Athan in Wales on a flight engineers’ course.
DK: Oh right, so did- Was there a reason why you didn’t end up as a pilot rather, as a flight engineer?
RF: Well, they said that there was a glut of pilots at that time
DK: There was too many?
RF: Too many of them, and we were sent on this- Oh we had a choice, you could either go as glider pilots or we could go to St Athan and train as flight engineers, which is what I did.
DK: Presumably if it was the gliders, it meant you’d be transferred to the army?
RF: Yes, more or less, yes.
DK: Yes, so you wouldn’t of- You didn’t want that then?
RF: I didn’t, I didn’t fancy that, no. Some of our flight went and I never heard what happened to them, but there we are.
DK: So, you got to St Athan then-
RF: Got to St Athan and it was about a three-month course.
DK: And what were you doing there then?
RF: We were training to be flight engineers on Lancasters, and from there were went to conversion units, to be crewed up.
DK: Right, so can you remember which conversion unit you were at?
RF: Yes. Bottesford.
DK: Bottesford.
RF: Nottinghamshire, yeah.
DK: So that’s where would’ve first met your crew then?
RF: That’s right, yes. Apparently, I was crewed up twice, and I can’t quite remember the reason. So, I was there longer than usual.
DK: So, what was the crewing up process, how did you meet your crew?
RF: Well, as far as I remember, it was meeting in a large hall with various flying types you know, like pilots, bomb aimers, and navigators, wireless operators and gunners we, we just sort of got round talking to each other and if we liked him, what they looked like and if they liked us, we said, ‘Well, what about crewing up together,’ you know, so it was quite a short process really.
DK: So, it’s quite hap-hazard then?
RF: Hap-hazard, yeah.
DK: No formality to it?
RF: No, no.
DK: Which is quite unusual for the military, did you think that worked well?
RF: Well, it- Yes, I was quite happy with my crew yes, and I think- Yes, you all fitted together quite well.
DK: And can you remember the name of your pilot then?
RF: Yes, Reynolds- He finished us as a flight lieutenant, but he was a flying officer when I first got to know him.
DK: So, you all got on very well together then as a crew?
RF: Mm-hm.
DK: So, is that when you're training on the Lancasters started then?
RF: That’s right, yes.
DK: So that would’ve been your first time on the Lancasters?
RF: Yes.
DK: So what did you thing of the Lancaster as an aircraft?
RF: Very good, very good, we didn’t have any trouble with it at all.
DK: No vices?
RF: No, not really, no.
DK: So, could you just say a little bit about what the role of a flight engineer was, just for somebody who doesn’t-
RF: Yes, well, mainly to do with the fuel and the various tanks, booster pumps, that sort of thing, making sure that we changed over at the right times, because we used different fuel tanks on the Lancaster, about four or five I think, and looking after hydraulics, that sort of thing, checking. But, the main, main job I think was looking after the fuel, and checking the pumps and-
DK: So, where abouts were you positioned in the aircraft?
RF: On the right-hand side, next to the pilot.
DK: Right.
RF: And had a blank row, which was on my right for the fuel. We used to keep checks on the fuel and if the tanks, the tank you were using was getting low, you used to start the booster pumps on the other, next tank and swap over.
DK: Did you help with the take off at all, or was that down to the pilot?
RF: Yes, in as much as the throttle, the throttles and looked after the undercarriage and that sort of thing
DK: Right.
RF: And then, [unclear]. Then, controlling the throttles all the time, synchronising the engines, and maintaining the shooting speed or climbing, whatever was needed.
DK: So, so you had to work very closely with the pilot?
RF: Oh yes, very closely.
DK: Did you have to kind of second guess once you got to know each other?
RF: Oh yes, yes, we were very- Quite close, yeah, got on very well with each other.
DK: So after the heavy conversion unit then, you’re now fully trained crew-
RF: That’s right.
DK: Where did you go then?
RF: We went to 101 Squadron, although it was at Bottesford, that’s right. Yes, went to 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna, they called it Mudford Lagna because it was all muddy.
DK: So I've heard [chuckles].
RF: And we were there for about three months or so and then they moved to Binbrook which was more or less a permanent base which was much better.
DK: With the same squadron?
RF: With the same squadron, yes, and I went there on the 10th of August ‘45. I didn’t actually do any service- Any operational flying because I was bit too late coming in you see. By the time I was- Got onto the squadron it was the 6th of July 1945, just after the end of the war.
DK: Right.
RF: So, I was very lucky I suppose in that respect.
DK: So, your crew never did any operations then?
RF: No, no.
DK: What was Ludford Magna like then, ‘cause it’s in the middle of nowhere isn’t it?
RF: More or less, yeah. Yes, it was, it was muddy there’s no doubt about it [chuckles].
DK: Did that affect flying at all as you landed?
RF: Not- No, not really, no, it- I, I had purchased a motorcycle in those days and I stored it in a farmer’s barn nearby and this allowed me to get home if we had any weekends and that sort of thing.
DK: So, did you and your crew socialise together then?
RF: We did yes, quite a bit.
DK: So what did you used to do?
RF: Go down the pub and drink [laughs]. The skipper, he had a motorbike at that time before I got mine, and believe it or not, it will take seven people [chuckles] on the way back [emphasis] from the pub [laughs].
DK: Probably wouldn’t want to do that now?
Other: No [laughs].
RF: Yes.
DK: Was there anything- Were you ever told anything about 101 Squadron, because they were doing some special duties there? Were you ever-
RF: Yes, we- Well as I say, by the time we got there, the war had finished. We did a lot of cross-country flights and we did trips to Italy and fetch back some Middle East people who had been in the army there.
DK: Yeah, Operation Dodge.
RF: Is that what they called it?
DK: Yeah.
RF: Yeah, I don’t-
DK: 101 Squadron though, they had some special equipment on-
RF: They did, yes that’s right.
DK: Did you ever see any of that at all, or was it quite sort of secret?
RF: Well, I, I did yes but it was mainly operated by the wireless operator so I didn’t have much to do with it so I didn’t know very much about it really.
DK: So, you weren’t really told then about the specialty [unclear]
RF: No, as I say, the war was over and, I suppose there wasn’t any need for us to know about it.
DK: So, you’ve done the operation- Not the operation, you’ve done the flights to Italy to pick-
RF: Yes, we did, quite a few flights to Italy and one to Berlin.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And brought back- I think we used to fetch back about nineteen soldiers at a time, sitting on the floor.
DK: What sort of condition were they in, presumably they hadn’t been home for a few years?
RF: Oh, they were over the moon, you know, they didn’t care about where they sat, and they all wanted to see the white cliffs, so we let them come up-
DK: Up to the cockpit?
RF: Yeah.
DK: You say you did one trip to Berlin-
RF: One trip to Berlin.
DK: You actually landed in Berlin then?
RF: Yes.
DK: Did you get a chance to look round Berlin at all?
RF: Yes, we did, yes. We were there a day or a couple of days, and I went to Berlin and saw the wall, and-
DK: Presumably it was all ruined, the city then?
RF: I don’t actually remember seeing much of ruins at all. It looked to be a thriving city and, I didn’t see much in the way of damage at all.
DK: So, was there suggestions then that you might be going out to the Far East?
RF: Yes, there was, yes but the atomic bomb kettled all that you see.
DK: Right was that kind of a blessing in disguise then?
RF: Well, depends what side you’re on doesn’t it? [chuckles]
DK: So, had you had any training to go out in the Far East at all?
RF: No, we hadn’t had any, any training but I’m sure that was where we would’ve finished up, if it hadn’t been for that, and I-
DK: So, you finished the war at Binbrook then?
RF: That’s right, yes, and after that they sent me to a maintenance unit at Stoke Heath, 24 MU, and put me in charge of a gang of about five AC2’s and our job was to break up aircraft. The aircraft was supplied in very large pieces, and we- It was our job to get them broken down so they would fit on garbage trucks to be taken for scrap, which was- I didn’t like that job at all.
DK: Do you know what sort of aircrafts were being scrapped?
RF: They were American aircraft, that’s about all I can tell you.
Other: That’s alright then.
RF: But what sort of aircraft they were I don’t know, and I finished my service there and I came out on the 6th of December 1946.
DK: So, what was your career post war then?
RF: Oh, as I say, I was working for the BBC before I went in, on transmitters, and when I came back, I applied again for my job which I got, but they sent my onto a small transmitter in Wrexham, a local transmitter just for the area, in a couple of sheds it was [chuckles] and I didn’t enjoy that very much, and I wanted to get back home into the North East, but I couldn’t get back to the North East but they transferred me to a shortwave station in Skelton in Cumbria and that’s the nearest I got to home.
DK: So, this is still with the BBC then is it?
RF: Still with the BBC yes, but I could see no chance of getting back home so I chucked that job, and I went into radio servicing with a local TV, radio and TV shop.
DK: So maybe they should’ve had you as a wireless operator then?
RF: Well, that’s what I was frightened of [chuckles].
DK: Oh, you didn’t want to do that? So, all these years later, how do you look back on your time in the RAF?
RF: I, I look back on it as a very good time, I thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly because of the flying I suppose.
DK: And did you stay in touch with your crew at all?
RF: Pardon?
DK: Did you stay in touch with-
RF: I stayed in touch with the skipper, yeah, Bob Reynolds.
DK: Bob, Bob Reynolds?
RF: Mm, until about a year or so ago and then we- I don’t know what happened but we just sort of let it tail off, so I don’t really know if he’s still alive or what.
DK: Ok, well that’s, that’s marvellous, I think we better have a break there, but I think if you’re happy with that I’ll turn the recorder off
RF: Oh good.
DK: But, thanks very much for that.
RF: At- I remember telling- Came in and pulled up over the cliffs, and shot straight up passed this, while we were doing-
DK: Oh right, so you were parading on a promenade?
RF: In front, yes on the prom, on the road in front of The Grand Hotel, and he was flying so low that he had to climb very steeply to get some altitude, so he wasn’t able to fire us or anything because guns were pointing the wrong way you see[chuckles].
DK: So, it was German Focke-Wulf?
RF: It was a, yeah, 190.
DK: Right, so how did- What did- Did you all scatter or were you all-
RF: Well, it was over so quicky, we didn’t do anything [chuckles]. Because the [unclear] down Binbrook and we went and they had the FIDO petrol things.
DK: At Woodbridge?
RF: Yes.
DK: What was it like [unclear] at Woodbridge with the FIDO?
RF: They had petrol pipes each side of the runway which they lighted, and it cleared the fog and when you came in for the landing, you felt the lifts straight away from the heat from the petrol.
DK: Oh right, was that quite frightening, cause you’re landing in flames in effect?
RF: Yeah, yes, bit dodgy.
DK: Bit dodgy.
RF: [Laughs]
DK: So you were actually still flying Lancasters into 1946 then?
RF: Yes.
DK: And it’s got here some SABS bombing, S-A-B-S?
RF: Oh yes, that was-
DK: Can you recall what SABS bombing was?
RF: Oh, S-A-B-S, um.
DK: I think it was a specific type of bomb site wasn’t it?
RF: I’m not sure, I can’t really remember. I know it was a special range we flew to, to drop these bombs but they were only little things. I forget what the S-A-B-S stands for [unclear] that’s right.
DK: Right, the bombing range?
RF: Yeah [pause] 1946.
DK: So, the last flight was, April the 7th 1946?
RF: Yes.
DK: Ok then, we’ll put that-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph Freeman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFreemanR180312, PFreemanR1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:33:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Wales--Glamorgan
Manitoba
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Freeman volunteered for the RAF in 1942. He began initial training in March 1943 and was posted to Manitoba in October, where he qualified as a pilot after training on Cornells and Ansons. Upon returning to Great Britain, Freeman was remustered and completed flight engineer training on Lancasters at RAF St Athan, before forming a crew at RAF Bottesford. The crew joined 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna on the 6th July 1945, but moved to RAF Binbrook in August, where they undertook flights to Italy under Operation Dodge. For his final posting, he completed maintenance at RAF Stoke Heath and left the RAF in December 1946.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1945
1946
101 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cornell
FIDO
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bottesford
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/844/10838/AGreenE180522.2.mp3
249391cf79090c9672f3295249b1c716
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Elaine
E Green
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Elaine green (b. 1940). Her Uncle was an armourer for 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Ok. We’ll get, just get this going. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s working.
EG: Ok.
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing, interviewing [unclear] on the 22nd of May 2018. So, if I just put that there.
EG: Yeah.
DK: I’ll. I’ll occasionally look over like this.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, what, what I want to do first of all is just ask a little bit about yourself. So, have you always lived in this area then?
EG: No. I, I was born in Yorkshire but I lived in Peterborough but my grandfather lived on Nelson Street in Lincoln.
DK: Right.
EG: And we used to go and see him. And my aunt and my uncle were there as well and my cousin, Richard.
DK: Right.
EG: But they moved around to Woodhall Spa and all around there in lodgings.
DK: Right. If you don’t mind me asking how old would you have been during wartime then? Would you —
EG: I was born 1940.
DK: Right. Ok. So come, come the sort of Dambusters time —
EG: Oh yeah.
DK: You were about three. Three years old.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. I don’t remember that but my mother does.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They weren’t supposed to say anything but my uncle did say to my mother, ‘Don’t tell Lottie.’ That was his wife, ‘But pray for us on the 16th.’ Or around about there.
DK: Right. So, your uncle’s name was —
EG: Ernest Richard Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: B O L T O N.
DK: And he was with 617 Squadron.
EG: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Right [unclear]
EG: Yeah. He was in there for twenty five years. I’ve got the paperwork about it. He, I think he was the eldest one in the squadron. He was the, he looked after the bombs and he was the chief armourer.
DK: Right.
EG: He worked with Barnes Wallis. There was letters between him and Barnes Wallis but my aunt destroyed them.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: I know. My cousin was furious about that.
DK: Oh dear. So, you don’t, now after all these years you probably don’t know what exactly he was doing with Wallis then.
EG: Well, he was at the Ladybower.
DK: Right. Right.
EG: And also down by the sea. Where ever that was.
DK: Reculver? Would it have been Kent?
EG: I don’t know but it’s my Aunt Ettie, his sister in law that told me what she knew.
DK: Right.
EG: Guy Gibson said to him, ‘As you’ve been here right from the beginning would you like to go?’ Now, I’d have said no but he said yes and he went so there was a hundred and thirty four went that night. Which plane he was on we’re not sure. It could have been Guy’s. We’re not sure. And, but he cut his head badly and when he got back he was in hospital for two or three days.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, he actually went on the raid then.
EG: He went on the raid.
DK: Right.
EG: As an observer. As an observer. I mean what was Guy? Twenty four.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he would be forty four.
DK: Right. So, he’d have been born in —
EG: 1900.
DK: 1900. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. There’s a photograph of him. That’s his medal.
DK: Right.
EG: That’s a letter from the King.
DK: So, he was awarded the, just for the recording here he was awarded the MBE then.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So that’s the MBE there.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, it’s Squadron Leader Ernest R Bolton, MBE.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. That was from Arthur Harris.
DK: So, there’s a post, well, a telegram here.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: A telegram here to Squadron Leader Bolton at 54 base which was Coningsby.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, “My warmest congratulations on the well-deserved award of your MBE.” Signed by Arthur T Harris.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Air Chief Marshall.
EG: That’s right.
DK: And can I just, for the recording that’s dated 16th of June 1945.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So that’s, that’s from the Under-Secretary of State for Air.
EG: Maybe Johnny Johnson might know about it.
DK: Yeah. Might do. Yeah.
EG: That was —
DK: That’s the Gazette. Yeah.
EG: The Gazette.
DK: The London Gazette.
EG: Yeah. And that was when he died, I think. That one. 1947.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So —
EG: You can have all those.
DK: So, yeah. Right. Thanks. He’s in the London Gazette then and that’s, this is recording his, his death, is it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh, was it —
EG: I don’t.
DK: Oh, no. It’s —
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton. Yeah.
EG: Bolton. I don’t know what MBE.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. I know he died in ’47.
DK: Right. So, he died January 1947 or —
EG: Yeah.
DK: About that time.
EG: Around about that time. I can remember the funeral. We weren’t sure what it was but we were, my cousin and I were pushed next door while they went to church.
DK: Right.
EG: I think it was St Faith’s. That’s the nearest church to Nelson Street.
DK: So, whereabouts were you living then at this time?
EG: Well, we were living in Peterborough.
DK: Right.
EG: My mother and I.
DK: Right. And Bolton himself, your uncle where was, where would he have been based? Was he based at Scampton at the time?
EG: Well, when he died, no. He’d retired.
DK: Right.
EG: And he’d got a job and through the accident on the plane.
DK: Right.
EG: He caught, he got cancer of the brain and died.
DK: Gosh.
EG: Because of it.
DK: Really?
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, while he was with 617 Squadron then he’s gone up in a plane.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And been injured in some way.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And that led to his death.
EG: Yeah.
DK: In 1947.
EG: ’47. Yeah.
DK: Right. So, he retired and then died very soon afterwards.
EG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely old chap. I can remember he always used to cook breakfast when we used to go up for a weekend and put a pinny on. He’d got his uniform on.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But always liked cooking breakfast.
DK: Yeah. So, do you know much about what he was doing before 617 Squadron?
EG: No. That’s where —
DK: So you don’t know whether he was, because Gibson tried to recruit most of the aircrew and ground crew. Do you know if he would have been personally recruited —
EG: I think, yeah. I should think he would be, yeah.
DK: Recruited by Gibson.
EG: I should think he would be but you’ve got to find that out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: There was a programme the other night about it but it was 2010 and they’re saying that the ground, he, he couldn’t recruit many people.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Not many volunteers [laughs]
DK: No. So, do you know much about what he did after the Dambusters raid then?
EG: No. I know nothing. Now, if you ring my cousin up he might know more.
DK: Ok.
EG: Because he was living with his mum and dad.
DK: Right.
EG: But he said he was at Coningsby.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because —
EG: Well, it’s not far away.
DK: Yeah. Because 617 then moved so he’s probably then moved with them.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: To Coningsby.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And I think they went to Woodhall Spa after that.
EG: Well, they lived at Woodhall Spa for a bit. But they did have accommodation, I think at Scampton —
DK: Right.
EG: At one time. I remember seeing a photograph of Richard when he was a little boy sitting on the step. It looked like a Nissen hut.
DK: So, the story about the dog then.
EG: The dog.
DK: The dog would —
EG: Well —
DK: The dog called N*****. We can say that in front of [unclear].
EG: Well, I’ll tell you another story about him later but they brought, we were up at my grandfather’s at Nelson Street in Lincoln for the weekend. Uncle Richard brought N***** home and he chewed my hat. I was about two at the time but I thought maybe he’d gone away with his wife but looking at this other, he had a lady friend called Margaret.
DK: Right.
EG: And they used to go to Honeysuckle Cottage.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Did you know that?
DK: No. Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Well, I’m not sure about this but my friend, Liz, her mother was his driver and I can’t remember if her name was Margaret but they used to interview her.
DK: Just in case. So it, so that’s, I mean do you remember much about the incident?
EG: No. I remember nothing.
DK: Yeah.
EG: It’s what my mother always told me.
DK: So, no pictures of the dog then.
EG: No.
DK: No.
EG: No. None at all. But funnily enough I was in the dentist in Grantham here and Richard Todd used to live here, around here.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And Richard came into the dentist and, being nosy I said, ‘Oh Richard, by the way,’ I said, ‘Have you heard that they’re going to do a remake of your film?’ And he had this booming voice.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he shouted out, ‘And do you know they’re going to call the bloody dog Trigger?’ [laughs] Oh dear. Oh, I remember that. But they never did, did they?
DK: No.
EG: Make another film.
DK: So, so the story is, so, the story is then as the armourer there he actually went on the raid itself.
EG: Yeah. As an observer.
DK: Observer. Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And is, is there anything, you haven’t got any any documentation at all about when he was with, just that?
EG: Just that.
DK: When he was with Wallis.
EG: This is what my cousin put though yesterday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: For me. You can have all that.
DK: Ok.
EG: But if you want my cousin you’ll have to ring that number.
DK: Yeah. So, what’s your cousin’s name then?
EG: Richard Bolton.
DK: Right.
EG: It’s another Richard Bolton.
[pause]
DK: I have got my pen here somewhere.
EG: But the RAF, because my uncle died they sent my cousin to boarding school and paid for it.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was at Queen’s College, Taunton, Somerset.
DK: I can never find my pen when I really want to.
EG: Here you are. Just put Richard Bolton on there.
DK: So, is that his son?
EG: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. I think he was stationed in India for a while. I’m positive he was, joined the, not the RAF but before the RAF.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he would be one of the, what did they call it in those days before the RAF.
DK: Oh, the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: The Royal Flying Corps. That’s right.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, his career might go back that far.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. He’d been there twenty five years.
DK: Could well do then, couldn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because that was 1918.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Might have joined the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: He’d be about eighteen then.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. So, he’s one of the old school.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was a Regular.
DK: So, do you want to, for the recording then do you want to tell your story about your father and the tank? You’re going to have to repeat it again because I’ve just the recorder on.
EG: Well, dad was about, he would be about five at the time.
DK: Yeah.
EG: When my grandfather came home and said he was going to take dad up to the Common to see Little Willie, the tank which was called in those days the Water Tank of Mesopotamia.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And they picked him up, took a photograph of him and put him in the tank and rode around the Common with it.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he was the first child in the world —
DK: To ride on a tank.
EG: On the tank.
DK: So just for the recording what was your father’s name then?
EG: Ernest Watkinson.
DK: Ernest Watkinson.
EG: Yeah.
DK: The first, first child to ride on the tank.
EG: Yeah. I know. I’m still looking for that photograph.
DK: Yeah. As I say you might want to try the Imperial War Museum. They might have it.
EG: Well, they’ve got photographs of a woman with a dog with a long frock on and a hat and two little girls. But not a little boy sitting on a tank.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But I would have thought the papers would have been there. The newspapers. Local.
DK: Could. Could well be.
EG: Yeah.
DK: If you look in the archives for the —
EG: Well, I did ring them up.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And heard no more from them.
DK: Probably might have though if it was a local paper that no longer exists where the archive.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That could have gone but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: But I expect it’ll be out there somewhere.
EG: But also, when my father, who was in the Second World War and he was stationed in Suffolk near Orford.
DK: Right.
EG: Do you know where Orford is?
DK: Yes. Yes.
EG: Yes. South of Southwold.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he was on duty in the forest there. Is it Rendham or Rendlesham Forest, on a field phone and he was told what he saw that night he wasn’t to divulge.
DK: Was this the famous flashing lights?
EG: No.
DK: Oh, another one.
EG: Before that.
DK: Oh, before that. Oh right.
EG: Before that. No. No.
DK: Because that was quite recent, wasn’t it?
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: That was the 1980s, wasn’t it?
EG: Yeah. Well, apparently —
DK: The Americans saw something in the woods.
EG: Yeah. The Americans saw something in the woods.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. This was during the war this was.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And apparently the Germans landed. There’s a shingle street and they came with rubber boats and the Canadians, I believe it was the Canadians, dad said went over, dropped petrol on the top of them and dropped a bomb in the middle and they’re all buried in the forest.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: So, whether that was the film, do you remember, “The Eagle Has Landed?”
DK: Has landed yeah. Yeah.
EG: That’s based on that I think.
DK: Based on that. Yeah. There has been rumours of German landings hasn’t there but nothing has ever been —
EG: Oh, yeah. Well, dad saw it that night. Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: Yeah. So, whether the lights came on after that —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, he had a son then. Richard Bolton who was your cousin.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Was there any other children then?
EG: He had two sons from his first marriage.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: But what their names are I don’t know. They were much older. His first wife died. Whether in childbirth I’m not really sure.
DK: Yeah. So, you don’t really know anything more about this accident that he actually had on this aircraft other than he banged his head.
EG: Well, he banged his head. I believe cut it open. That’s what my aunt said.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. But he was lovely. He really was a nice man.
DK: And you haven’t got any stories handed down about, you say he was a chief armourer but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: What his actual role was as an armourer?
EG: He was, well that’s all I heard. He was a chief armourer and he worked with Barnes Wallis.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They were quite close and he went around with Barnes Wallis as well. I said there was letters but my aunt destroyed them all.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Why? I don’t know.
DK: Because I’m, I’m wondering. He’s clearly got involved in the development of the bouncing bomb, hasn’t he?
EG: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
DK: And the various issues you’d need to set the thing off.
EG: Yeah. Well, Barnes Wallis might have. If he’s written to him he might —
DK: Might have copies of it.
EG: Copies. Yeah.
DK: Because I think the Barnes Wallis Archive now is in York, I think.
EG: Is it?
DK: I think it’s at the York Aircraft Museum. I think. It should be at Brooklands but, because that’s where he worked for many years but I don’t think it is. It’s either, either Brooklands or up in York.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That’s where it might be. There might be something there.
EG: Yeah. But I took my cousin up to Scampton. Saw the grave and Guy’s office.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: And what have you.
DK: Because it’s got a big fence around it now, hasn’t it? Iron railings.
EG: Has it? Oh.
DK: Yeah. Iron railings around, around the grave.
EG: Oh, yeah. I saw the —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Railings around the grave. Yeah. And funnily enough the Red Arrows just turned up that time.
DK: Yeah. Oh right.
EG: And the chap, the guide who was taking us around said, ‘If you wave they’ll wave back.’
DK: Yeah.
EG: And as they came down they waved [laughs]
DK: Excellent.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, that’s, I think that’s probably all we’re going to be able to do today.
EG: Yeah.
DK: But just background on him. Is there anything else you’ve thought of?
EG: I can’t think of anything else.
DK: Yeah.
EG: He was, I think he was the oldest one in squadron. There might have been another one on the ground crew but there definitely the flight wasn’t.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: They were in their twenties weren’t they? I mean even Guy was twenty four.
DK: He was only twenty four wasn’t he?
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: David Shannon had only just turned twenty one.
EG: Terrible.
DK: Yes.
EG: I know my uncle as that happened in the May my uncle, my mother’s youngest brother was twenty one on the [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
EG: In July he was shot in Sicily.
DK: Right.
EG: And his captain visited [unclear] in Yorkshire and he said, ‘If it’s any consolation we got the sniper.’ And she turned around and she said, ‘No. You shouldn’t have done that. Somebody else’s son.’
DK: It’s always the tragedy, isn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: The tragedy of war. Nobody, nobody wins in war.
EG: Nobody wins in war.
DK: Yeah.
EG: My grandfather you see we were all mining stock.
DK: Right.
EG: All my uncles had gone down the mines but my grandfather didn’t want his youngest son going down. He said, ‘You’re going to be a gardener.’ So he was called up and killed. Yeah.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok, then. Well, I’ll, I’ll stop the recording there. That’s, that’s great. Thanks very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Elaine Green
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGreenE180522
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:02 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Elaine’s uncle worked as an armourer in RAF Scampton. He first joined the Royal Flying Corps before the organisation was renamed the RAF. He worked with Barnes Wallis at the time of the design of the bouncing bomb. He sustained an injury which the family believe led to his early death.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/PHollierM1701.2.jpg
2d2bff42122046751c24c3477c3ffe25
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/AHollierM171016.1.mp3
1cffc294b38a22c75f045c3808219b63
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hollier, Marian
M Hollier
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Marian Hollier (b. 1926, Royal Air Force). She served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Wickenby and RAf Ludford Magna.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hollier, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right, I think we’re ok. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs. Hollier on the 16th of October 2017. I’ll just put that down there and if I keep looking down, I’m just making sure it’s working. Yeah, we’re ok. Could I just ask you then what were you doing immediately before the war?
MH: I was in, it’s another funny thing, I was in the accounts department of the George Wimpey company who built most of the aerodromes, so of course, I knew everything about aerodromes all over the place but I did belong to the Women’s Junior Air Corps and in there I learnt Morse. And my father was a telegraphist in the First World War, so I suppose the radio bit hereditary, so I decided that I was about coming seventeen and a half I will join the RAF
DK: Did, was Morse something that came easy to you?
MH: Yes, so I, that’s what I joined the RAF, which we were sent to Wilmslow in Cheshire for the six weeks square bashing and injections and what have you and then went to Blackpool for three months on a radio course doing the Morse and then after three months we were sent to Compton Bassett in Wiltshire to finish the course. And from there I went to, oh dear, my mind’s gone
US: Ludford?
MH: Where did I go to first?
US: Ludford
MH: Ludford,
DK: Ludford Magna
MH: Ludford, sorry about that [laughs]
DK: [unclear]
MH: My mind’s gone.
DK: That’s right, we’re [unclear]
MH: But I wasn’t there at Ludford Magna all that long but one did have a scare there one night, I was busy taking a Morse message and my colleagues just dived underneath the benches there oh my god but I had to keep on doing the Morse and so finished and I said, [unclear] what’s wrong with you lot? The Germans had followed our aircraft in and strafed our headquarters.
DK: Oh, right
MH: So that was a bit of a scare
DK: So Ludford Magna then, whereabouts were you [unclear], were you in the control tower there or?
MH: No, no
DK: Right
MH: We had our headquarters in the main building
DK: Ah! Alright, ok. So, what would’ve been your role there? You are sitting there and you’re receiving messages or you’re transmitting them?
MH: Yes, receiving message for aircraft coming in and yes, and they strafed the headquarters, so that was scary and then I suppose I must have been there for about six months or so and I was transferred to Wickenby because Morse was coming to an end then so that wasn’t necessary so they put me into the wireless section, the radio section and that was doing the daily inspections on the Lancasters and that’s where I met my husband and there again we had a scare because the Germans who liked to come in after our aircraft and start bombing but this particular day some chaps said to my husband would you like to change shifts with me? So he said yes, I don’t mind because they used to have to go out, when the aircraft were coming in and going out they used to have a radar van that used to go round the airfield, so this chap said, oh, thanks, anyway the same thing happened, the Germans came in our aircraft and the bomb dump went up and this poor chap was killed, he had changed with Eric for this to go out somewhere, so that was scary.
DK: If I can just take you back to Ludford Magna, did you know anything about the squadron there, 101 Squadron?
MH: Yes
DK: Because they were special squadron, weren’t they, with radio countermeasures?
MH: Yes I don’t think I knew a lot about Ludford Magna
DK: No. They didn’t mention anything about what the squadron was doing
MH: No, no
DK: No. Ok, so, you’ve gone on to Wickenby then and you said that Morse wasn’t being used so much. You’re now transmitting by radio, is that what’s happened? You, at Wickenby
MH: Yes
DK: You are using radio now instead of Morse
MH: No, we’d be doing the daily inspections on the aircraft
DK: Ah, right, ok, right. So what would that involve then?
MH: Go onto the aircraft and testing the headphones and all the radio equipment, was it, 1154, 1155, I think they were [laughs] and
DK: So
MH: But of course, I wasn’t trained to do that so I only did menial jobs on the aircraft
DK: And that would be after the raid
MH: Yes
DK: Would these be the following morning, so you’d go out to the aircraft and then
MH: Yes, and do an inspection on them before they went off again, but I mean, they used to come in and go out and sometimes there was no chance that you could do an inspection on them
DK: And then so, what did the inspection sort of involve then? Did you take the radios out or are you inspecting?
MH: Yeah, just to see if they were working alright
DK: Yeah
MH: That sort of thing
DK: Yeah. And how long were you at Wickenby for then?
MH: From forty, I did write it down somewhere, can’t remember what I’ve done with it,
DK: [unclear]
MH: Don’t think that’s in there, I was there from about March ’44 until about September ’45 and then I got sent to Sturgate on 50 and 61 Squadron and that was just in looking after headsets and that sort of thing, nobody was interested in doing anything at the end of the war [laughs] and then, have you ever heard of Ralph Reader?
DK: I haven’t, no, no
MH: Well, he did gang shows for the forces and then at the end of the war he decided he would do a gang show involving all the people who were involved in the war, all the services, the fire people, the police, everything and it was going to be held in Royal Albert Hall and they were asking for people who lived near London if they would like to come and do it and so that we could work in the week and at weekends we could go home and that’s what happened with many because I lived in Middlesex
DK: Right
MH: So, and then we were based at Epping during the week and that went on for about three weeks so that was something interesting after the war and a lot of people don’t remember
DK: No
MH: Because if you weren’t involved you wouldn’t remember. And then I got sent to RAF [unclear] at Eastcote in Middlesex which was near my home, so we got billeted out and a friend of mine that I was at Wickenby with, she got sent to Eastcote and we were allowed to go home to my mother and father at the week, every week and they, we got billeted there
DK: Yeah. So how long were you in the Air Force for altogether?
MH: From beginning of February 1944 until November 1946, because I got married 194, September 1946, so I had to come out anyway
DK: You had to come out with, if you got married, did you?
MH: But I did enjoy my life in the RAF
DK: Just going back a little bit, you mentioned a bit earlier about the ground crew, did you see much of what the groundcrew did on, at Wickenby?
MH: No, not really, because you just stayed in your own section.
DK: Ah, right
MH: But, one thing is when I was at Wickenby, somebody came up and said to me, you’ve got to see one of the officers, so I said, what for? No, I can’t tell you, she says, you’ve gotta come with me, so I got to this office and said, [unclear] the officer, and he says, I understand your name is Taunt, T-A-U-N-T, so I said, yes, that’s right, it turned out he was a long distant cousin of mine. No, I didn’t know him, I didn’t know him at all and they owned the red bus company in Birmingham and his wife bred Bedlington terriers [laughs], that was funny. But a lot didn’t happen to me, not [unclear] exciting, did some exciting things [laughs]
DK: So what did it feel like then when you used to see the aircraft going off on the raids? How did that?
MH: Well, we all, if we were on duty we would be out there watching everything,
DK: You were, yes
MH: Yes, yes
DK: So can you recall what actually happened then as you watched the aircraft take off?
MH: No, not really, just hoping they would all come back.
DK: Did you use to wave to them?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, but when we went on this trip to Canberra, I got talking to two gentlemen there and they were looking at this aircraft so I said, you are looking very lovingly at that aircraft, yes, he said, we were on this squadron during the war, I said, oh yes, were you? Whereabouts? Oh, you wouldn’t know whereabouts, so I said, well, try me, so he said, well, we were in a place called Lincolnshire, I said, oh yes, and whereabouts in Lincolnshire? Oh, he says, that’s no good, we were only in a village, so I said, well, tell me the name of the village then, he said, Wickenby. And he was there in ’45 when I was there
DK: Yeah, And they were Australians, were they?
MH: They were Australians, yes
DK: Oh, right
MH: And he wrote a book of poems, his name is Jeff Magee and he wrote a book of poems and he sent us a book of poems and every year when we used to go back to Australia we used to meet up with him but he’s gone now
DK: Do you, can you recall what type of aircrew he was? Was he a pilot or?
MH: Oh, he was a pilot
DK: He was a pilot, yeah
MH: Yes, yes and his friend was a gunner
DK: Right
MH: And they both survived but it was amazing to go twelve thousand miles
DK: And bump into
MH: And to meet up with these two people
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby then?
MH: Sorry?
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby?
MH: Oh no, no, no, but it was funny that all this business of this chat, chat, chat to think that we were at Wickenby at the same time during the war or after the war I should say
DK: So were you actually with 626 Squadron or
MH: With 626 and 12
DK: And 12, alright, ok
MH: Yes, yes, we did both squadrons,
DK: Right
MH: The radio school did both then
DK: So the radio school there wasn’t allocated to one or either of the squadrons
MH: No
DK: You just did both squadrons on the base, yeah
MH: Both, yes
DK: So what was it like living on the base there, did you have much of a social life?
US: [unclear]
MH: I didn’t
US: I think you did, [unclear] the story you told me, I think you did
MH: [laughs] we
DK: [unclear]
MH: No, one thing that we did have was the Americans, they were, they [unclear] Scunthorpe
DK: Right
MH: And they used to send a truck down to take the WAAFs for dances
DK: Right
MH: But I didn’t go on one of them, no, I didn’t like Americans [laughs], my son-in-law is American
DK: Oh right
MH: No, they were up to no good [laughs]
DK: So did you manage to, apart from the Americans, did you manage to get off the base at all? Did you go to the pubs?
MH: Oh yes, I took my bicycle with me all over the place and it’s amazing now to think that from Wickenby or Ludford Magna to Louth was, is a long way but we used to cycle and then, when we had time off, when I was at Compton Basset, I lived, my grandmother lived in Berkshire, which is not all that far from Compton Bassett, with my mother’s home is round there, so I used to skive off and one day I did skive off and I left my bed, cause we used to have to make our bed everyday but this day I left the bed and put that bolster in the bed and skived off overnight and I got caught [laughs] and spent some days peeling potatoes in the canteen [laughs]
DK: So how, when you are on the base then and the aircraft have all gone off on their operations, did you wait for them to come back?
MH: Well, only if we are on duty because at Wickenby the WAAF section was on one side of the airfield
DK: Right
MH: So unless we were on duty, no
DK: So, the WAAF section then was quite someway
MH: Yes
DK: From the rest of the base?
MH: Yes
DK: Right
MH: Yes, cause when we see it now, you know the road that we come in, that right-hand side was where all the WAAF was
DK: Alright. That’s at Wickenby is that as you got to the control tower
MH: Yes
DK: So, you were on the right on the road there
MH: Yes, yesh
DK: Right. So how, when you did see them come back how did you feel about them as they all came back damaged aircraft and things?
MH: A bit tearful you’ve, because they, in the section we had a list of the aircraft that were going out and coming back and some of them didn’t come back, didn’t know what happened to them, dreadful. Their choice, flying
DK: So, how did you feel once it was all over then and the war came to an end?
MH: Elated, glad it was over. We, my husband and I, when he was my husband then, we skived off, got a train to Grantham, and cleared off home and came back a week later but we didn’t get any jankers for that [laughs]
DK: So there was a bit of a celebration then, was it, for the end of the war?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: Yeah. And how do you look back on your time now [unclear]?
MH: I loved it, yes, I loved being in the Air Force,
DK: And was that your main role then, just the radios?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And can you still do the Morse now, if you [unclear]?
MH: I could do it, that’s where my Morse key that I had when I was at Ludford Magna is there
DK: Oh right, right
MH: And they hadn’t got one
DK: And it’s on display now
MH: It’s on display, yes, yes
DK: And you say you received messages then you would
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And what sort of messages were they?
MH: They were all in code
DK: Right, alright, ok
MH: Yes, but we didn’t do the code, we had to pass that on for somebody else to do
DK: So you wouldn’t really know what the message was
MH: No
DK: Right, ok, so
MH: When it was in code
DK: So it’s in code and then it’s deciphered elsewhere
MH: Yes
DK: Right. And if you transmit to them, was that in code as well?
MH: That in code
DK: So you pass the code
MH: Yes
DK: So the message you are sending out, you also [unclear]
MH: Yes, you wouldn’t know what the code was, no, no
DK: Did you sort of [unclear] that and wonder what you were saying or?
MH: No, I was young, wasn’t I? Seventeen and eighteen [laughs]
DK: So, once the Morse finished then, you were transmitting by radio? Presumably that wasn’t in code then
MH: Say that again
DK: Once Morse had finished, you said radios came in, you weren’t speaking in code then
MH: It was all in code, didn’t have anything in plain language
DK: Oh
MH: I didn’t
DK: Right
MH: No,
DK: Ok
MH: I liked the Morse code. When I came out and we moved to Horsham in West Sussex, I joined the Air Training Corps
DK: Right
MH: And taught them Morse, that happened for a little while, why I don’t know
DK: It’s not used very much now, is it? It’s not used today.
MH: No, well, they had what they called Morse lip reading and then, oh, what else did they have? There is the same as the aircraft, they change as well because they had a blister under the aircraft radar, and my husband one of the first people to go on a course for that
DK: H2S
MH: Yes, that radar
DK: Yeah, H2S
MH: At Yatesbury
DK: Right. So, he was, he worked on the radar [unclear]
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes
DK: OK, well, I’m happy with that if you’re ok
MH: Not very interesting.
DK: It’s very interesting, if you ask me. You’ve got a photo here. Right, this is
MH: That’s Wickenby
DK: Right, this is just for the recording then, so
MH: That is a, on the back of this, that’s the radio section
DK: Alright. So, just for the recording here, we’ve got a picture of a Lancaster with
MH: Yes
DK: Are you in this?
MH: Somewhere [laughs], I think I’ve circled where my husband and I are [laughs]
DK: Oh, ok. So this is the signal station at RAF Wickenby, June 1945. So, assuming that sort of something taken for the end of the war, was it, a sort of souvenir?
MH: Well, I suppose so
DK: Yeah
MH: I can’t remember.
DK: So, it’s got the names of everybody on here, can’t see your circle
MH: So, how old’s your dad then?
DK: Oh, he’s ninety next year, be ninety next year
MH: A bit younger than me [laughs]
DK: Yeah. He would’ve, as I say, he would’ve caught the very last year of the war [unclear] he was called up
MH: Yes
DK: He was nineteen then, as I say, failed his medical to get in the Navy and ended up in the factories. I can’t see you here, see if you can point yourself out. Ah, right, ok, so you’re third one in from the left, front row. Ah!
MH: [laughs]
DK: Oh! That’s a wonderful photo there.
MH: What a change! Thank you
DK: So, just for the recording then, I got two photos here, that’s [unclear] good so and this is your husband
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, and what was his name? What was his?
MH: Eric
DK: Eric, Eric. Yeah. So he was signals as well then. Yeah. Just for the recording here, I say, it’s a photo of a Lancaster from the signal section RAF Wickenby June 1945 and the aircraft is coded PH0, PHO, that’s for 12 Squadron and is that the squadron leaves the field? Is that the squadron right at the bottom there?
MH: Oh, that’s the, oh no, that’s the, that’s on the badge
DK: The crest, on the crest, so that’s the 4 Squadron crest
MH: I have been down to Brookwell, that’s where my mother’s home is, I’ve been down to Brize Norton and taken over the airfield by one of the workers there and had coffee in the officer’s mess
DK: Cause 101 squadron is still going, isn’t it?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, that’ll be, that’s a hundred years
DK: Yeah, I’m not too sure about 12 Squadron though, I don’t think, is 12 Squadron still going, do you know?
MH: No, 12 Squadron is, no, only 101
DK: Nor 626 either
MH: Uh, no
DK: No, no
MH: But I noticed that 61 Squadron was mentioned the other day. I can’t remember in connection with what. Because I thought to myself, oh, I was on 61, oh, something to do with that body that they found somewhere
DK: In Holland
MH: The aircraft that got lost
DK: Yeah
MH: That was 61 Squadron
DK: That was a wreck in Holland, wasn’t it?
MH: Yes
DK: Yes
MH: That was where I was in Sturgate was on 61 Squadron
DK: Right, alright. Cause I think they found the remains of one of the crew, don’t they?
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes, I think it was the pilot cause he’d told all the others to jump out, didn’t he, and he didn’t.
DK: Right, right, yeah. Ok, let’s, let’s stop that there. I’ll ask the question again. Did you ever get to fly in a Lancaster?
MH: No, I didn’t [laughs]
DK: And there was a reason for that. What’s the reason?
MH: Yes, uhm
DK: You did flights to Germany?
MH: Yes, they were sending flights over Germany and I said to my husband who was my boyfriend then, I’m going on one of those, he says, if you go on one of those, I won’t marry you [laughs], so I didn’t go on one. And we were married for fifty-eight years [laughs]
DK: Did he go on one of those trips?
MH: No, I didn’t, no
DK: He didn’t either
MH: No
DK: No
MH: No [laughs]. When, going back to Brize Norton, an uncle of mine was at Brize during the war when they had the Wellingtons pulling the Horsa Gliders
DK: Oh right
MH: And apparently, they had to hold onto the back end of the glider before it took off and he held on and he fell and got killed and that was at Brize Norton.
DK: Right. Yeah. So, have you had many family members that have been in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Right
MH: Only me.
DK: Right.
MH: My brother went into the navy, my father was in the army
DK: You mentioned your son-in-law, is it, he’s at Coningsby?
MH: My son-in-law
DK: Yeah, alright, ok
MH: With his husband
DK: Right, and he was at RAF at Coningsby?
US: No, he was in the United States Air Force
DK: Oh!
US: He served in, during the Vietnam war
DK Oh my!
US: He was in, think he was in Laos
MH: He gets teased. If anything goes wrong, he says, I’ll stay in America again, he doesn’t mind [laughs]
DK: So, what did he do in the US Air Force?
US: He was on, as far as I know, cause he doesn’t talk about it a great deal, he was on the helicopters, in the back end of the helicopters with a machine gun
DK: Oh right!
US: To, cause they used to go and pick up the downed pilots.
DK: Right
US: And he was one of the people that, you know, was protecting the people that were
DK: Going and pick’em up
US: Going to pick’em up
DK: Oh right, cause someone I know, I’ve never met him, but he’s the son of somebody who fought in, who served in RAF Bomber Command, who was a pilot but he has since gone back to America, lived there and he served in Vietnam on the helicopters doing a very similar job. Yeah. So where did you meet him then?
US: RAF Bentwaters
DK: Right. So you were
US: I was civil servant, yes.
DK: Right
US: And he was still serving time, I mean he was, he was actually military place
DK: Right. Spent time in Vietnam, interesting
US: Well, I think again, it was a case of joining the Air Force before he was
DK: Drafted in, yeah
US: Before he was drafted
DK: Drafted into the army, yeah. Ah, well, right, just for the recording again, there’s this lovely photo of your wedding
MH: Honeymoon paid for by the RAF in the Isle of Wight [laughs]
DK: Ah, that’s very nice, I’ve just come back from the Isle of Wight funnily enough, I was [unclear]
MH: Freshwater [laughs]
DK: Freshwater, yes, we went there. Very handsome chap. I like the way the flairs are in color
MH: Yes, you didn’t get things in color in those days
DK: No, no
MH: They all had to be hand done afterwards
DK: Lovely photo. And did your husband stay in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Alright
MH: He wanted to
DK: Alright
MH: He was an architect, but I said no, I didn’t want my children to be sent to boarding school in this sort of and keep on moving here, there and everywhere so he went back and then got his degree in architecture
DK: Ah right. Did he tell you much about what he was doing cause you mentioned he was working on the radar?
MH: No
DK: Alright, so he never really talked about that
MH: No, he wasn’t very talkative about other things, was he?
DK: Alright.
MH: He would be a good friend, cause he wouldn’t tell anyone anything [laughs]
DK: But you knew he was working on the H2S radar then, yeah
US: His wing
MH: was part of the section
DK: Right, yeah, yeah
US: We were talking to a lady cause my mother got invited to one of the memorial flight
DK: Right
US: And we were talking to the curator there and she said, you know, how interesting it is talking to people after the war, how some people are quite happy to talk about it and it doesn’t bother them and other people just
DK: Just don’t
US: Just don’t want to
DK: We’ve actually found that this was part of this project there’s a lot of people now who obviously, you know, got to a great age are only now talking about it so when you ask about how many, you know, are still surviving, a lot of these people haven’t mentioned it but we identify them and then for the first time they are talking about what happened, you know, for understandable reasons they haven’t spoken about it before. Sometimes the families haven’t been interested and sometimes they just obviously found it too difficult to talk about and you know, it’s sad and understandable but you know hopefully now we are capturing some of those stories before it’s, you know obviously it’s too late. Cause some people say, well, why didn’t you start this project twenty years ago when the memories were fresher? And perhaps we should’ve done and [unclear] we would’ve done but they didn’t want to talk about it twenty years ago
MH: I’ve still got my father’s diary that he went into the army in 1916, was eighteen in 1916, and I’ve still got his diary written in pencil and still readable
DK: Yeah
MH: Of his time in the army and I’m just wondering whether records in any of the Army things might cause that’s no good to me, nobody wants them
DK: Yeah, it might, you can’t, does it mention which regiment he was with? Because there’s regimental museums, they might be interested probably
MH: Yes, oh right, I think I didn’t give it, I gave you something, didn’t I?
US: I’ve got a few bits and pieces of [unclear]
MH: I think I’ve got a
DK: Because there’s
MH: A little disk upstairs somewhere
DK: Because there’s similar projects to the Bomber Command one where if there is research into this particular regiment like us they might want to copy it, you keep the original document but they, cause now you don’t really need to hand over the original document, they just make a copy of it electronically and the family gets to keep the documents, so it might be worth looking into
MH: It’s very interesting reading and exactly as you see in these pictures with all the margin, he had, a bullet went in his neck and he lived until he was seventy-nine, but he had mustard gas
DK: My grandfather on my mother’s side, he was gassed in the First World War, he lived to be ninety-nine but he was, I think it was phosgene gas that he was wounded and he collapsed and had a label on him and he said, oh, you’ve got a blighty wound, you know, you’re going home and then my grandfather on my father’s side as well and his brother so my great grand uncles all fought in the Western Front
MH: I like hearing about people’s experiences during the war because I’ve got a friend that lives on the estate, he’s coming up ninety-three, and he was in the Red Berets
DK: Alright, yeah
MH: What are they called?
DK: The commandos
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, yeah
MH: Yes, and he can tell me a few stories
DK: Ah, right. But once again, there might be a project where his stories are being captured, cause I know old history’s now is really a big thing really
MH: And I keep meaning to try and go to Ypres because an uncle of mine got killed in the first week of the First World War and a couple of years ago friends that live at Brize Norton they found his grave
DK: Ah, right
MH: And but I haven’t managed to get there
DK: Hopefully, you’ll get to see it
MH: So
US: Did you, did you have any Polish people on your squadron?
MH: Can’t hear you
US: Did you have any Polish people on your squadrons?
MH: Yes, no, no
DK: Oh, right, ok
MH: Oh no, not allowed, at Faldingworth, have you heard of Faldingworth?
DK: Yes, yes, yeah
MH: That was part of the number 1 Group at Faldingworth and when I got transferred from Ludford Magna to Wickenby which isn’t that far, we stopped at Faldingworth so they said you gotta stay in the van, what do you mean I gotta stay in the van? WAAF are not allowed to get out on a Polish squadron
DK: Really?
MH: The men are always after them [laughs], but you could always get lipstick and nylons and this sort of thing
DK: From the Polish
MH: And silk stockings and, yes, we swear that they used to land somewhere and pick these things up [laughs]
DK: So you have no idea where they got this stuff from then? You’ve got no idea where the Polish were getting the nylon from?
MH: No, no, no, no
DK: So you never actually met any Poles then, no?
MH: But they were always very nice [laughs]
DK: Yeah
MH: But you weren’t allowed out of the van [laughs]. But I don’t know whether there were any women on that squadron at Faldingworth, I didn’t know much about it but I know it was all Polish fliers there
DK: Yeah. So, when you were allocated to a squadron or a base, you really kept within that, did you, you didn’t really mix with people from other squadrons
MH: Well, I think so, I did because it was still Lincolnshire when I went to Gainsborough
DK: Right
MH: To Sturgate so I just stayed in and of course they used to, when you went from, you finished your course and they said, where do you want to go? Everybody put near home, well, you never ever got near home it was miles away [laughs] cause I was in Middlesex
DK: Did you manage to get home much though while you
MH: No,
DK: Served, no
MH; No, no
DK: So, you weren’t granted leave for the weekend or
MH: No, not very often, might get seven days now and again, and you would get days off, but you would just stay locally, well unless you were like me and skived down to my relatives [laughs]
DK: Ok, well, I’ll stop that there but thanks very much for your time. Put that back on again, the radiation cells, so they were all
MH: They were valves
DK: Right. So, was part
MH: Nothing electric
DK: So, was part of your role then changing the valves?
MH: Yes, yes and on the aircraft it was the same
DK: Alright. And this might sound an odd question, but did you take the whole radios out? You had to pull them out presumably.
MH: It could’ve done but I didn’t because they were too heavy
DK: Right. Right
MH: But there will be a receiver, what’s the other thing?
DK: Transmitter
US: Transmitter
DK: Yeah. And then all the valves that you had, did you use to change the valves?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And could you tell if the valves needed changing?
MH: Can’t remember, long time ago [laughs]
DK: But it was good technology because it worked
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
US: I mean, my dad used to build his own radios, didn’t he? Papi used to build his own radios after the war
MH: Yes
DK: Yes, yeah
US: Locked in boxes
MH: He really wanted to stay in, no, I wasn’t going to have my children taken away from me [laughs], go to boarding school
DK: It’s understandable. Ok
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Marian Hollier
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHollierM171016, PHollierM1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:38:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Hollier served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force from February 1944 to September 1946. Before the war she worked in a construction firm, The George Wimpey Company, which built aerodromes. She learned the Morse code in the Women’s Junior Air Corps. Tells of her father who served as a telegraphist in the First World War. Later on, she joined the Air Training Corps. She was trained at RAF Wilmslow, then Blackpool on the Morse code, before moving to RAF Ludford Magna, with 101 Squadron, and from there to RAF Wickenby with 626 and 12 Squadron. At RAF Wickenby her duties included radio transmitting and carrying out inspections on aircraft. While she was stationed at RAF Ludford Magna, she witnessed enemy aircraft strafing headquarters.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945-06
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
626 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Wickenby
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/928/11171/ALinakerJ150924.1.mp3
3a460fac50d11fa36d2a5548c624bfeb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Linacker, Jack
Linacker, William John
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Jack Linacker (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 9 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Linacker, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. David Kavanagh, International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jack Linaker. Put that there.
JL: Yeah but you’ll have Jack Linaker. The name is William John.
DK: Oh.
JL: But everybody calls me Jack.
DK: Sorry. William John known as Jack Linaker.
JL: Yeah.
DK: Ok. I wonder if we could just, do you mind if you just pull one of these tables up? One of these. Just put that there and put the microphone on. I’ll put that there. You won’t have to shout then. Ok. So, so you were saying about the militia then?
JL: Pardon?
DK: You were talking about the militia.
JL: Yeah well —
DK: And the Territorial Army.
JL: Before the war started the government had a plan to call up young blokes like me. And I was called up. I had a medical examination and all the rest of it. I went to, had the medical examination and we were interviewed and, by, by these big shots like. And I said I wouldn’t mind being in the Guards. And this chap said —
DK: Right.
JL: ‘Well, you can’t be in the Guards Jack because you’re not tall enough.’ He says, ‘Join the artillery.’ So, he put me down for the Artillery. WelI, I thought that was great you know. So, anyhow, I was called up to go up to Bishop Auckland. To the Artillery.
DK: Yeah.
JL: And I went. I took it down to the steelworks and they sent it back. They said, ‘You’re not going. You’re staying here for the simple reason we’ve got that and we’ve got women coming in and you’ll be able to teach the women.’ So I didn’t get called up. And then eventually the war started. And the women come in to the steel works and there was me teaching women little jobs that men did. And I wasn’t, I wasn’t quite on — I think I was about twenty. I wasn’t twenty one but anyhow whilst the women was there we had we had rationed the chocolates and things like that. We could get it. And then anyhow these women they was very good to us all and all the rest of it. And the next thing is they told me I have to be transferred and they transferred me to Kettering furnaces.
DK: Right.
JL: And it was the worst bloody job I ever had in my life. I’m not kidding you.
DK: So how old were you when you started in the steel works then? Sixteen?
JL: We, when we come to Corby from Northampton we had nothing. My father was out of work. And he got a job as a work chauffeur.
DK: Right.
JL: So I’ll be about sixteen or seventeen.
DK: Right.
JL: When we came to Corby.
DK: So you’d be about sixteen or seventeen working in the steel.
JL: Yeah.
DK: Corby. Yeah.
JL: And I did get a job straight away. Of course, the steel, the Germans were still building the steelworks. And I biked to Kettering, and I got a job in Kettering where they made furniture. And then when, round about Whitsun time the bloke says, ‘Jack, I’m sorry. We don’t want you anymore.’ So I went back to Corby. Went down to the local dole place. They said. ‘You’re just right. They’re taking young lads into the steel works.’ So, I got a job in the steel works. And I’ll tell you what. Men were teaching me and they was on, one or two blokes who knew all about it but most, most of the chaps had come down from Scotland.
DK: Right.
JL: Where they’d had it, had it rough. So I never picked up the wages like, like the beginning of the steel works. So the first thing I did, I had to, in them days you handed your money over. I handed my mum over and she give me ten shillings. The first thing I did with that ten shillings, I went straight into Kettering and put the ten shillings down on a fifty bob suit.
DK: Right.
JL: The fifty bob tailors. And then the fifty bob tailors was bloody good in them days. So, anyhow that was it. In that time I used to go into Kettering. I did a bit of dancing and all the rest of it and I picked up a young lady there. We got on alright together and all the rest of it but one night when I was taking her home in Kettering her old man come out and he said, ‘If that’s one of them buggers from Corby he can bugger off.’ So anyhow, I said, ‘I’m not from Corby. I’m from Northampton.’ So he took me in. We had a cup of coffee and all the rest of it. I said, ‘I’ve missed the bus.’ He said, ‘You can borrow my bike.’ But that was the end. The Kettering people didn’t like the blokes from Corby. So anyhow, eventually I did take, take the job in Kettering. But it was the worst job I ever had. In the meantime I got married.
DK: Right.
JL: And I had to live with her mother. She told me, ‘If you marry me you’ll have to,’ But she wanted me to marry her because she was only eighteen and I was twenty or twenty one. But anyhow we got married. And the job I had in that place was bloody horrible. So I went straight down to the Labour Exchange and I volunteered for the RAF.
DK: Right.
JL: So, they filled in all the forms and all the rest of it and they sent me to Cardington. They sent me to Cardington. I passed the exam and all the rest of it. They interviewed and they said, ‘Right. We’ll put you down as a flight engineer.’
DK: Can you remember what year this would have been? Had the war started by this time?
JL: The war had started by that time. It would be —
DK: 1940 sort of time.
JL: You stay there.
[pause]
DK: So it would have been 1942 then.
JL: Yeah. So anyhow, as I said I went and had the interview and I had to come home. And they put me down for a flight engineer. And I was married. I was living with, with the mother in law and all the rest of it. And I thought this was, it was alright but the money was no good. Eventually I wrote to the RAF to call me up. And they did. And they sent me down to the RAF Regiment. And I went over to the Isle of Man and did training with the RAF Regiment and all the rest of it. And then eventually I was in the RAF Regiment and then others, others was volunteering. They wanted aircrew and all the rest of it. But I don’t know why, I never bothered about it. Then all of a sudden it come to my head and I went to see the adjutant. I said, ‘Look, I’ve got a paper here.’ I’ve got it still in there. I said, ‘I wouldn’t mind going aircrew.’ So he said, ‘Why not?’ So, he sent me up to London. I had an interview and I think I stayed at one of the posh places up London and they says, ‘What did you — ’ I says, ‘Well,’ I says, ‘I didn’t know what to do.’ So anyhow, he says, ‘Right. We’ll send you down.’ And they sent me down to the RAF Regiment, and I was with them and then all of a sudden I went and saw the adjutant. I said, ‘Look, I’ve got this bloody paper here. Aircrew.’ So he said, ‘Right.’ He sent me up to London again and the next thing is I was training to be an air gunner and I trained at, over the Isle of Man.
DK: Right.
JL: And from that on I met a friend of mine, Bunny Rothwell. And when, when we’d passed our tests we were sent out to Desborough way to our IOU and then we went and trained on Wellingtons and things like that.
DK: Yeah.
JL: You know.
DK: So when was your training first of all in the air? Was the Isle of Man — ?
JL: Yes. Well, the first time we went training in the air it was on Ansons.
DK: Right.
JL: And they had turrets on the ground and all the rest of it and that’s how we, how we trained. And then —
DK: So you trained on the ground first of all.
JL: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then in the turret in the, on the Anson.
JL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So what were your targets in the air then?
JL: Pardon?
DK: What were your targets? Your training targets.
JL: What?
DK: What were you shooting at?
JL: Well, they used to put a plane in the air with a bloody great big trailer on the back of it.
DK: Yeah.
JL: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JL: We used to shoot at that.
DK: And try and avoid the plane.
JL: Yeah. Yeah. Of course the bullets was covered. All the rest of it.
DK: Right.
JL: And that would be on [pause] that would be Ansons.
DK: Right.
JL: That would be about 1944 on Ansons. And [pause] then they sent us to an OTU but we was on Wellingtons. And from Wellingtons, well we had the, I must admit we had the time of our lives because we used to bugger off when there weren’t anything else. And the next thing is, the next thing is —
DK: Is that where you met your crew?
JL: No.
DK: Oh you hadn’t met your crew yet.
JL: No. No. First of all they sent us to, we was on Wellingtons. And then they sent us to a Conversion Unit. And I don’t know why but I arrived a bit late. And they seemed to be all crewed. Crewed up. So when I walked down there the first bloke I met was Bunny Rothwell. And I was at air gunner’s school with him. So he says, ‘Just the man, Jack. You can come. You can be in our crew.’ He says, ‘We want a rear gunner.’ He said, ‘I don’t want [laughs] I don’t want to be the rear gunner,’ he said, ‘No. You. I’m the mid-upper.’ So, Curly Read was the pilot. And that’s how I got crewed up. And then —
DK: So this was on 9 Squadron was it? Or before? Before then?
JL: Just before then.
DK: Before. Ok.
JL: So we was in an OTU.
DK: OTU right.
JL: But we was training on Wellingtons.
DK: Right.
JL: Then we went on what they called Conversion Unit.
DK: Ok.
JL: And then we went over on Stirlings. The [pause] everybody hated flying in Stirlings. The aberration of the air force. So anyhow —
DK: You didn’t, you didn’t like the Stirlings then.
JL: No.
DK: No.
JL: So the next thing is we got called up they sent us to 9 Squadron.
DK: Ok.
JL: The best of it is when we got to 9 Squadron the bloody place was empty. So we went into the sergeant’s mess. So we said to said to the young, somebody in there, ‘Where are they?’ They said, ‘Shhhh top secret. They’re in Russia.’
DK: Right.
JL: So 9 Squadron was in Russia.
DK: The Tirpitz.
JL: We went, we went down to the local pub. The Jolly Sailor. And everybody in there, they knew, ‘Shhh top secret. They’re in Russia.’ And they, 9 squadron had flown out to Russia to get the Tirpitz because of that. But, ok. They was there. So, alright, they didn’t get it so when they did come back they brought a load of Russian money back which was worthless. So anyhow —
DK: No vodka.
JL: Yeah.
DK: No vodka.
JL: Anyhow, when we got back like, we got crewed up and all the rest of it.
DK: So which base was this then? Which RAF station? Was it Bardney?
JL: Yeah.
DK: Bardney. Yeah.
JL: And then we got crewed, we got a crew. Curly Read was my first pilot and we crewed up. And then [pause] right. We, we really, really enjoyed it at Bardney. That was around about 1944.
DK: Ok.
JL: And we’d already been [pause] we’d had already been to Munich.
DK: So where was your first?
JL: We’d been to, we’d been up to Norway.
DK: Right.
JL: To the fjords. The idea was to get hold of the boats that do that. So we had, whilst we was there me and my mate Bunny Rothwell we had, you know we really enjoyed ourselves. We used to go down to the local pub, The Jolly Sailor . Which ain’t there anymore and that. So when we, we carried on, we did a few flights and then we come back. It was very, oh we’d been up to Norway. We’d come back and it was very very foggy. He overshot the runway and he tried to get around again and he crashed. I fell out the rear turret. And the next thing is I was laid on the bloody floor in mud. The next person I saw was Bunny Rothwell. So we went over, saw Bunny. And as that one bloke stepped out of the plane and he fell down. And then another one come out. He fell down. I pulled the parachute cover up one of them and that was when the navigator and the bomb aimer, they was, they was killed. The pilot, we couldn’t find him. But he’d gone through the canopy. He was over, way over there but he was still alive but he had a [pause] skull. And the wireless operator he had a fractured skull. So that, that was him gone. 1944. Just before Christmas. So we moaned and moaned and moaned. They was, they was going to take them two lads back to where their parents was. And I managed to get home for Christmas, to Kettering. And that was on operation. We’d been to Stettin. Crashed on return to base. Then afterwards Ray Harris had these two air gunners and they got shot up well one day and he lost them. And then I joined Ray Harris and I flew, flew with Ray Harris right ‘til the end of the war. And he was the man who started the reunion. 9 Squadron. The first reunion we ever had was RAF Club Piccadilly. And he had a little bit in the News of the World about it. My mate Bunny Rothwell, he rung me and he said, ‘You’re going.’ So, we went down and we stayed the night at some hotel. We stayed at, went to RAF Club Piccadilly. When we, you’ll laugh at this bugger then. When we stayed the night we had the time of our life. We was going back to the hotel. When, when we got back to the hotel there was these women in the doorway and they said so and so and so and so, ‘You can have the night for us for thirty quid.’ And me and Bunny Rothwell bloody laughed our heads off. He said, ‘You’re a bit expensive.’ Anyway, we never had, we never took any notice of women. We just bloody went up. And we didn’t know half the stuff that went on in bloody London you see. So anyhow, we went, we went back to 9 Squadron and then well me, we had, any time we could get away we used to go down to Nottingham. Why we went to Nottingham it was always known that was the place for wine, women and song. This is true. One night we was down Nottingham. So we didn’t have to get back until the morning. So we booked a bed in, this is true, we booked a bed in at the YMCA. So, we went down to this pub, not a really nice pub. We’d become, I forget the name of it now. But anyhow, we was up the bar. We were having a drink. Now, this is a fact this lady come up to us. So she says, ‘Are you two boys in Nottingham for the night?’ We says, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well,’ she said, she was very nice, she said, ‘Well, my husband is in the Middle East and he’s a major. But it was always our intention if anybody was aircrew they could stay in our house for the night.’ We thanked her very much and all the rest of it. In the end we did go back to her place. So when we got to her place in Nottingham, lovely. Like that. The maid opened the bloody door and we sat down. We had a couple of drink and all the rest of it. So she said, ‘I’ll show you to your bedroom.’ She showed me to my bedroom. And then she showed Bunny to his bedroom. And we got up in the morning. We told her we had to be on Trent Bridge. We’d get the lorry back. So we went up. And we got up in the morning and there was the maid there. All that. And she come down and she said, ‘Don’t forget. Go back and tell your boys they could stay here anytime.’ So we went back and told the blokes about it.
DK: Yeah.
JL: And we had a laugh. Anyhow, when we got back we never bothered about going back to Nottingham. We’d go to anywhere. We’d jump and all the rest of it. And of course, I’d been married and my, and my wife had buggered off with the bloody Yanks.
DK: Oh no.
JL: So, that put the cap on married life. So anyhow, one day I went down to the mess. Picked up this letter and I read it. And I went straight down to the gunnery section. I says to Bunny Rothwell , you know the night we stayed at Nottingham?’ He says, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Did you sleep with a woman?’ He says, ‘I did.’ I said, ‘And did you tell her your name was Jack Linaker?’ He said, ‘Yeah. I wasn’t going to tell her my own name.’ He says, ‘What’s the matter. I said, ‘She’s just died and left me all her money.’ [laughs] He tells the same story but the other way around.
DK: Yeah.
JL: So anyhow, we, I went. I started to fly with Ray Harris. He, he went out on the motorbike and he crashed the motorbike and hurt his leg. He never went flying again. And I flew with Ray Harris right until the war ended. We did a tour of all the places we —
DK: So how many operations did you do altogether?
JL: Pardon?
DK: How many operations all together?
JL: Counting leaflets I only did eighteen.
DK: Eighteen.
[pause]
DK: So how, how many were with the first crew and how many with the second crew?
JL: That, that was my second crew.
DK: Yeah.
JL: That would be 1945 would be the last time I flew on the squadron. Then I finished up in Singapore. Not flying but they sent me to Singapore and that, that was it.
DK: Were most of the flying night time? Was most of the flying during the night?
JL: Pardon?
DK: Were they daylight operations or during the night?
JL: During the night.
DK: During the night.
JL: I don’t, I don’t think [pause] I think I did one daylight raid.
DK: Right.
JL: Over in France.
DK: Did you, as an air gunner did you ever fire your guns while on operations?
JL: Once.
DK: Once.
JL: Once I fired them. Once. But the best of it is when you, when you went out with a squadron and that, the, the Germans could put up a Lanc, pull up a Lanc and they put it in the bomber stream. So, and also if anybody was tailing you you’d tell your pilot you were being tailed. He’d either dive to starboard or port you see. And one night a Mossie was there. And I said to him, ‘If that Mossie doesn’t get off our tails I’ll give him a shot.’ Anyhow, the Mossie, the Mossie buggered off and all the rest of it so that was it. And when I think about it and all the rest of it you know, I was a lucky bugger.
DK: The one time you did fire your guns can you remember what you were shooting at?
JL: Yeah. We saw this bloody Dornier come in but he was at quite a distance. So I told the pilot. I says, ‘I’ll give him a shot.’ And I did. And the next thing is he buggered off so we never saw him again. And the next time — I did fire once more. I’ll tell you what. We, we were going over. I think it was to Munich and they’d put the flood lights on. And I turned the guns down and threw a few shots at the —
DK: The searchlight.
JL: Searchlight.
DK: Searchlight. Yeah.
JL: And they went out and that was it.
DK: So, was, was your role then as an air gunner to be more of a lookout? To warn the pilot of dangers.
JL: Pardon?
DK: Is your role as an air gunner to warn the pilot of dangers?
JL: Well, the role of, the role — this is a fact. The role of a rear gunner. He had a life of four hours.
DK: Right.
JL: That’s what they said to that. So you’ve got to be lucky because many a time they get hold of the rear gunner and all they do is throw meat out. Now, one night, before, before we went on the squadron there was this pilot come in with a [pause] it was either a Hurricane or a Spitfire and he crashed. They couldn’t get him and he was screaming. Well, one of the blokes come out with his arm and he, he fired his gun straight into that because they couldn’t get the pilot out. And killed him.
DK: Oh dear. So how, as, as all these years later as you look back on your time in the RAF how do you feel about it now?
JL: The time I had in the RAF I did, I did try to stay on. Of course I was a warrant officer. And the bloke said to me, ‘You’ll drop a rank.’ And I said no. I’ll stay on but no drop. And that’s when I come out. Because I’d got to drop a rank. I wouldn’t have minded staying on if I didn’t have to drop a rank but I did. And I come home and I’d got, I’d got my job back in the steelworks and a bloody good job and all the rest of it. And then my father fell out of work. Me and my wife bought him a taxi and he run a, run a taxi. And then when that, I packed up the job when my dad died. I packed up my job at the steelworks which I shouldn’t have done and run the taxi business. And I should have bloody sold it out there then. So I didn’t.
DK: Do you look back on your time in the RAF as proud of that time or is it — ?
JL: I look back on my time in the RAF. I enjoyed every minute of it. I probably, I would have stayed on if I didn’t have to drop a rank.
DK: Yeah.
JL: But today you get different views. Now, we are always on about these migrants coming over and all that. When I think about it you see the little babies being pulled out. And I want, I look, I want to know, they would have been much better off staying in their own country. And I I look at children. Unfortunately, we never had any children what with one thing and another. It was something to do with the wife but we tried to have children and didn’t. But there was always kids in this house. And there’s that little girl up there. She would have stayed here. A relation of ours. This is me personally. Every child when they’re born should be baptised. Why they should be baptised? You never know what that child wants to grow up to be. So, like one of them who married in to royalty. He was baptised but he wasn’t confirmed. That. But he had to go and get, do it before he got married into royalty. But I still say I believe and sometimes I wonder why do I believe? But —
DK: Ok.
JL: It’s one of these things. I love to listen to Songs of Praise on Sunday and things like that. I do go in to church. I do say prayers. And sometimes it makes you wonder where was God?
DK: Yes. Very true. Ok. I’ll just pause.
[recording paused]
JL: Those electric clothes. You know, we was well looked after.
DK: So you had electrical —
JL: Yes.
DK: Overalls.
JL: What we used to do, we used to plug in before we got into the aircraft. In that. Got them warmed up and that and then we plugged ourselves in.
DK: So you felt very confident in the Lancaster then did you?
JL: Oh yeah. Never worried me, flying in the Lanc. I’ve seen one or two packed up flying. There was one bloke he’d done sixteen trips and he’d had enough. And they stripped him. Left his brevet on and stripped his tapes off of him because he refused to fly anymore.
DK: Right. So —
JL: And he’d done sixteen. And there, we used to go in to the mess sometimes and there was this bloody bloke he got his ticket. He was trying to feed the ducks on the bloody wall. And there was another bloke. He was in the, and he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t wash. And two of the blokes took him down to the showers. Washed him. Brought him back. He still refused to wash and we reckon he got his ticket in the end. He wouldn’t wash.
DK: So, the, the crash you were returning from Stettin?
JL: Stettin.
DK: Stettin when the aircraft crashed. And, and the crew, and the crew killed.
JL: Two of the crew was killed. That was Whitey and the bomb aimer. The other one was smashed in the head and all the rest of it but I, I was the first one to fly again. Bunny Rothwell, he started flying again. Then he went out on a motorbike and hurt his leg and crashed. He never flew again. So I was the only one that carried on flying until stopped. I had to go.
DK: What about —
JL: I had to go training somewhere and —
DK: So the bomb aimer was killed. And the pilot was killed.
JL: No. The pilot was —
DK: Bang on the head.
JL: Yeah.
DK: Oh. So was the flight engineer killed or —
JL: Yeah. The flight engineer was killed.
DK: The flight engineer and the bomb aimer were killed.
JL: Yeah.
DK: And the others all wounded.
JL: Yeah.
DK: Were you hurt yourself or —?
JL: The two was killed and I was alright. I managed to go home for that Christmas.
DK: Ok. It happened just before Christmas didn’t it?
JL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: The 21st of December. So you were flying again back in March.
JL: Yeah.
DK: And that’s with Harris, I see. Yeah. So Flying Officer Read never flew again.
JL: No.
[pause]
DK: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Linaker
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALinakerJ150924
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:36:08 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Linaker was working in a reserved occupation as a steelworker before volunteering to join the RAF. He was originally told he would be trained as a flight engineer but as delays were frustrating he began training as a rear gunner. He joined 9 Squadron and crewed up with his friend who had been through the training with him. After one operation their aircraft crashed on return to base. The bomb aimer and navigator were killed and the pilot was wounded. Jack went on to fly with a new pilot who had lost his own gunners.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Kettering
England--Northamptonshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
crash
faith
Lancaster
Mosquito
RAF Bardney
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/934/11291/PLovattP1701.2.jpg
2363c9a6e0c9fbdba36e8345aedf980d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/934/11291/ALovattP170927.1.mp3
11a65dc90eee6449ec8ceb4bcdfa24d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lovatt, Peter
Dr Peter Lovatt
P Lovatt
Description
An account of the resource
117 items. An oral history interview with Peter Lovatt (b.1924, 1821369 Royal Air Force), his log book, documents, and photographs. The collection also contains two photograph albums. He flew 42 operations as an air gunner on 223 Squadron flying B-24s. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1338">Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2135">Album Two</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nina and Peter Lovatt and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
2019-09-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lovatt, P
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just interview myself. It’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Dr Peter Lovatt at [buzz] with his daughter Nina.
Other: Nina.
DK: Yeah. I’ll just put that on there.
Other: Ok.
DK: We just have to ignore that.
Other: Ok. That’s fine.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working because I’ve been caught out when the batteries have suddenly gone or the memory has gone.
Other: Ok.
DK: Just [unclear] —
Other: Alright [pause] Let me, shall, shall I just move it off that.
DK: Yes.
Other: So we can, we can access these?
DK: Yeah.
Other: That’s your logbook. And do you want to look at the photos because they might be —
PL: I’d like, I’d like the photos.
Other: Yes. There you go. That’s where you started, dad. Look.
PL: Oh yeah.
DK: Oh right. Ok. [pause] Oh the old pet dogs.
Other: There we go. That’s Walney Island, isn’t it?
PL: Yes.
Other: So do you want to tell David about joining up?
PL: Yes, I’ll tell him about that if you want me to.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Please do. I mean that would be my first question. What —
Other: Yeah.
DK: What made you join the RAF?
PL: Well, it was, it was very good. There was tremendous competition between the three Services even though men were being pressed in to the Army and Navy and the Air Force there was still competition between the Services for the better type of chap. And the Air Force appealed to those who wanted to fly and they formed the Air Training Corps.
DK: Right.
PL: And I joined the Air Training Corps and they really were good. They taught me how to navigate and I started to appreciate what mathematics was all about and I took off from there. I was really interested in the Air Force so I joined up and after a year’s wait they sent for me and I went to Walney Island.
DK: Right.
PL: The Air Gunnery School.
DK: So although you were good at navigating you didn’t try to become a navigator then?
Other: You wanted to be a pilot didn’t you, dad?
PL: I wanted to be a pilot.
DK: Right. Ok.
Other: But they gave you a bit of an option didn’t they? They said either, didn’t they offer you to be a Bevan boy or be —
DK: An air gunner?
Other: An air gunner.
PL: So I took air gunner.
DK: Yeah. Rather, rather than going down the pits.
Other: Which was quite harsh wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
DK: In fact, a veteran I spoke to yesterday said exactly the same thing
Other: Yeah.
DK: They didn’t do the pilot training and wanted to get in
Other: Yeah.
DK: And given the choice well air gunner or Bevan boy.
Other: Bevan boy.
DK: Yeah.
Other: I think they must have been desperate for air gunners.
DK: Yeah. So, Walney Island then. Was that your first place you went to?
PL: For training, yes.
DK: Training. Yeah.
PL: And I think the course was ten or eleven weeks and the standard was quite high and the training was good. You didn’t need second training.
DK: What, what did the training involve? Were you, were you square bashing at this point or had you moved —
PL: I’d finished that.
DK: Right.
PL: And they assumed, I took two or three exams with the Air Training Corps. They called them proficiency exams and I had part one and part two. Part two was quite unusual as it was fairly advanced so I really started off with a good, a good [pause] a good advantage.
DK: Right. So, at Walney Island then that’s, that was all air gunnery training.
PL: Air gunnery training.
DK: Yes. So, what did the training involve initially? Did they let you loose on the machine guns or did you have to do a bit of target practice?
PL: Well, they didn’t allow you to fire the machine gun for some time. You had to learn all about the machine gun first of all and then gradually you worked up to the position of firing the gun.
DK: So, you had to learn how to strip the weapon and put it back together again.
PL: That’s it.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember what sort of weapons they were? So, the Brownings or —
PL: Browning 303.
DK: And at Walney Island were you flying at that stage?
PL: Yes. They had Ansons.
DK: Right. Ok.
PL: Almost flying from day one.
DK: Right. So once you were on board the Anson what did the training involve?
PL: Firing the guns.
DK: From the turret?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And what, what was your target?
PL: A drogue.
DK: Right. And that’s flown by another aircraft then.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Normally a Martinet.
DK: Right. So you did quite a few trips in the Anson then.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And how many of you would be on board for this?
FPL: The Anson only took a few. There would be two or three at the most.
DK: Right.
Other: And that’s your record isn’t it of all the trips dad? In the Anson.
DK: And it has here the kinds of training that you were doing here. Tracer. Beam.
PL: Yeah.
DK: Air to sea so you’re shooting down. And cine camera gun.
PL: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. There’s a few abbreviations here. Do you, you don’t remember what they stand for do you? BRST? No. CCG? No. Don’t worry.
Other: That’s the cine camera gun.
DK: That was cine camera gun.
Other: Cine camera. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. And QXU there. So it was Number 10 Air Gunnery School then.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And that, yeah.
Other: And the total flying for the course that’s quite interesting, isn’t it? Twenty one. That’s it. Gone.
DK: Twenty one hours forty minutes. So that was all your training then. All twenty one hours. So then after number 10 AGS can you remember where you went on to then?
PL: We went to 223 Squadron.
DK: You went straight to the Squadron.
PL: Yes.
DK: Ah that’s quite unusual. There was no Operational Training Unit or anything?
PL: Well, they, what they decided to do I queried that and they decided to use the squadron as an OTU and the first few weeks we were treated as OTU people.
DK: Right.
PL: So we did our OTU on our operational squadron.
DK: That is very unusual.
PL: Very unusual.
DK: Yeah. So that was where you met your pilot then.
PL: Yes. On, on arrival at 223 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. And can you remember when they were based?
Other: Yeah. Oulton.
PL: Oulton.
DK: Oulton. Oulton. Right. And what did you think of your pilot? Was he, was he a good pilot?
PL: He was exceptional.
DK: Yeah.
PL: In fact, I thought he was overlooked and we were lucky to have him.
Other: Do you want to tell David about Jock Hastie and his background? Do you remember?
PL: Well, what was his background?
Other: He’d been in the Bahamas, hadn’t he? And he’d trained pilots. He was in his thirties when dad met him.
DK: He was quite old for a pilot then.
PL: Oh yes.
Other: He was old.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And he’d, he’d been a, he’d trained them and he’d been in the Bahamas, hadn’t he, flying? I can’t remember what he was flying. Do you remember?
DK: The Mitchells.
PL: Mitchells.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Ok.
PL: That’s him there.
DK: Right. Ok. So, he, he’d previously been with the rest of the crew in the Bahamas training there and then came back to the UK. I see you’ve got here about a full flight with him as a waist gunner. You’ve put Bullseye.
PL: Yes. That was a night time exercise flown around the UK.
DK: Right.
PL: And I forget what Bullseye was but it was, it was an exercise.
DK: Yeah. Because it’s quite unusual here. Did they tell you anything about what 223 Squadron was doing because it was unusual to the rest of Bomber Command.
PL: Well, they said it was a radio counter measures squadron. They told us that. They didn’t tell us much detail but we assumed we were carrying going to carry equipment which would jam German communications.
DK: And is that what the rest of your crew were doing as special operators then?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So, the Liberator itself. What did you think of that as a, as an aircraft?
PL: Cold and draughty.
DK: Because I believe the squadron only got second hand ones from the Americans.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So were they a bit clapped out?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And do you know the reason for using Liberators because you were the only squadron using them?
PL: I think it was because the amount of power we used. Electric power.
DK: Right.
PL: And its range.
DK: Right.
PL: And endurance.
DK: So can you recall a little bit about what these special operations involved?
PL: We at the, at the maximum we carried two special operators and they both carried, operated equipment each.
Other: Yeah. Have a look at your pictures dad because you’ll remember.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Here we go.
PL: We didn’t have a lot to do with them because they, they were a bit reticent about talking about their work.
Other: There you go.
DK: Right.
Other: There’s one there.
DK: There’s the Liberator there then.
Other: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And there’s you standing the crew in front of the plane.
DK: Oh wow.
Other: It was a big crew wasn’t it, dad?
DK: Yeah. Can you recall how many were in the crew?
PL: About eight or ten.
DK: Right. And once again that’s unusual because the normal Bomber Command crew was about seven. So as, as your job as a, as a waist gunner what was your role as a gunner there?
PL: It was to protect the aircraft.
DK: Right. And can you recall any incidents while you were flying then because I believe you saw a German night fighter at one point?
PL: Yes. There was one. One occasion when we were flying and a German night fighter had come up underneath us and unseen and was [pause] came in to view and of course the alarm was immediately entered into and the skipper, normally one would do a corkscrew.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Out of the way of the bullets. But instead of doing a corkscrew he used his head and just throttled back a bit and stayed on course. This put the night fighter pilot into a bit of confusion because he was expecting corkscrews. And we stayed like this for several minutes and something was bound to happen and all of a sudden the Messerschmitt disappeared. I think he realised that he’d been seen and had been spotted and was due to be blasted out of the sky any minute.
DK: So how close was he then? Could you, could you see the pilot?
PL: Yes. Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Quite easily.
DK: But you didn’t open fire then.
PL: No.
DK: No.
PL: We were just about to. If he’d stayed another minute we would have done and he would have had .5s. We didn’t carry 303s.
DK: Oh right.
PL: And a .5 bullet makes quite a hole.
DK: So were, can you recall if you were actually fired on at all by the enemy or for the most part you were [pause] they missed?
PL: Well, I think we were. We were either using our equipment.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Jamming the radar so it was unusable or we were just lucky.
DK: Yeah. Because your operations you weren’t actually flying with the bomber streams were you? You were flying separately to them.
PL: Yes. We took off with the bomber stream and returned with the bomber stream.
DK: Right.
PL: So, gave them protection.
DK: Right.
PL: But near the target we went off on our own.
DK: And the special operators would be jamming the radar.
PL: Yes.
DK: And, and did you use Window as well?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: In dad’s logbook it tells you which raids —
DK: Yeah. Ok.
Other: Were Window and —
DK: Ok. And did you used to throw the Window out?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yes. And can you recall what the Window was like? Was there different sizes of it?
PL: Yes. Different lengths.
DK: Lengths. Right. Just going through your logbook here for the sake of this you’ve got another bullseye operation in support of Duisburg so that was where you were flying out with the counter measures.
Other: Yeah. What is interesting about the logbook I’m sure you’ve seen this so the red is active.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Green is training.
DK: Oh, green is night time.
Other: A night time. Sorry.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And the black is —
DK: Yeah. So you, you’ve got here for example Window raid to Denmark. So you flew out to Denmark and then threw the Window out.
[pause]
DK: So, can you remember how many operations you actually flew?
PL: I have, I have to count them up so —
DK: If I just read through some of these.
PL: Yes.
DK: Just for the sake of the recording here so there is a lot of standing patrols and then, well Window. So as I say you’ve got October the 26th Window to Denmark. Air test. Engine trouble. So, 1st November Window raid to Homberg.
PL: Yes.
DK: 4th of November Window raid to Bochum. 18th of November Window raid to Hanover where you were diverted to Manston on the way back.
Other: Was that when it was foggy and they wouldn’t give you any food? Was it? [laughs] Do you want to tell David that story? Where you got diverted. Do you remember that? [pause] Do you not remember. Ok. It doesn’t matter.
[pause]
DK: Just going on here. So you got a Window raid to Essen, November the 28th. 30th of November Window raid to Duisburg. So, it’s mostly Window you’re doing then. And then December the 2nd ops to Gladbach. You’ve got here, I don’t know if you remember this one. December the 4th ops to Merseburg. Oxygen leak and returned to base. You had an oxygen leak.
PL: Yeah, but as we were on, we were on oxygen very early.
DK: Right.
PL: From about fourteen thousand feet. But we were flying fairly high so we needed oxygen badly. If we ran out of oxygen we were finished so we were caution, precautionary returned early I think.
DK: Right. So December the 4th Karlsruhe. And then December the 12th ops in support of Essen. So I’m assuming that’s radio counter measures again. Radar counter measures. Then December the 15th ops to Ludwigshafen. December the 17th ops to Ulm. And then December the 21st again Window over the Ruhr. So you’re [pause] and then December the 24th Mannheim. So there’s a lot of operations there [pause] And you flew on February 13th dropping Window in support of the Dresden raid.
[pause]
DK: And then you’ve got one here February the 23rd Window raid to the Ruhr. It mentions a combat with a JU88 or was that when you saw the aircraft then?
[pause]
DK: There was a lot of operations there wasn’t there? We’ll count them up later.
Other: What was it like in the aeroplane, dad?
PL: Cold and draughty.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And noisy.
PL: And noisy.
DK: Did, can you recall if you got much support from the Americans because they were doing similar operations?
PL: We didn’t. We didn’t talk about it if we knew. I think we must have known but we didn’t talk about it.
DK: No. [pause] And can you, can you recall the names of your crews still?
PL: Oh yes.
Other: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: We’ll get to the picture of the crew. Let’s get a big picture. That’s just really, that’s [pause] there we go. There you are.
DK: There you go. Can you name them now?
PL: Yes.
DK: Go on then.
PL: Bob Lawrence.
Other: That was dad’s good friend.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Roy Hastie. I don’t, I can’t see who that is.
DK: Right.
PL: That, that was known as Wee Jock. He was a wireless operator. Navigator Soapy Hudson. Flight engineer, co-pilot Chris Spicer.
Other: Which one’s Syd Pienaar dad? Is that? That’s, is that Syd Pienaar there?
PL: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
PL: Yes.
DK: So, did you get, did you get on well together?
PL: We got on very well.
DK: Yeah. And did you socialise together?
PL: Very much so.
DK: So what did you do on your time off?
PL: Well, we socialised with one another. We didn’t do much socialising outside the crew.
DK: No. And what did you do in your times off then? Did you visit the local pubs?
PL: The local pubs. Yeah.
Other: It was a long walk because dad was stationed at Oulton and he used to go to the Black Boy, didn’t you? So Soapy and, Soapy Hudson and Bob Lawrence and dad they were the three babies of the crew, weren’t they? So they used to walk quite a long way to the Black Boy Inn for a beer didn’t you? And if you were lucky you had bicycles and the Canadians used to steal your bicycles didn’t they?
PL: Yes.
Other: And they dumped them in the duck pond and your bicycle got shot up by a Messerschmitt didn’t it? In the duck pond. So there was quite a lot of pranking going on I think. So —
DK: So, so did you stay in touch with the crew after the war then?
PL: For as long as they stayed alive. Yes.
DK: Right. And did you regularly meet up again then?
PL: Not regularly.
DK: No.
PL: But we did meet up.
DK: So you’d go back to the pub where you used to —
Other: Yeah. And —
DK: Used to drink.
Other: And there’s pictures of having meals at people’s houses and, but Jock Hastie died quite young, didn’t he?
PL: Yes.
Other: So the pilot died quite young. Syd Pienaar went to South Africa. He was South African wasn’t he?
PL: Yes.
Other: And you’ve had contact from his son recently. And Bob Lawrence and Soapy Hudson you stayed in touch with, you know, closely.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
Other: I don’t know about Chris Spicer. He went to Canada, didn’t he?
PL: No. I don’t know what happened to him. No.
Other: Ok. Ok. Ok. And then you’ve done a lot through 100 Group Association.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: So dad’s been a regular.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Regular participant in 100 Group activities. Haven’t you, dad?
PL: Yeah.
Other: And that’s where he’s met other people that were stationed at Oulton. But as he said, you know they socialised in their crew.
DK: In just their crews. Yeah.
Other: So —
DK: Can you recall much about what you were told before an operation? At the briefings?
PL: They were very thorough and very methodical. Including very accurate weather forecasts.
DK: Right.
PL: It was like having your own personal weather forecaster and generally they were accurate. Occasionally they were wrong. Very wrong. But generally they were spot on.
DK: And presumably the briefings involved what would happen with the special operators and the points you’ve got to drop the wing nose.
PL: Yes.
DK: And when they’ve got to block the —
PL: Yes.
DK: German signals.
PL: Yes, indeed. They must have gathered a lot of information. With two of them carrying two different types of equipment they must have covered an awful lot of territory.
DK: Yeah. And what was it like then? Did you, because you were away from the bomber stream could you see much of the targets when they being bombed or were you away from that?
PL: No. We were right in it.
DK: Right.
PL: In fact, when, when the cloud was thick you were in thick cloud.
DK: And that was right over the target then.
PL: Yes.
DK: So as the bomber stream comes in are you circling the target area then?
PL: Well, I think that may have been the theory but in practice you got, you got stuck in.
DK: Right. So you were within the bomber stream itself.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And, and did, did the rest of, you may not know the answer to this did the rest of Bomber Command know about you? Did they know that there was this special squadron?
PL: I’ve asked myself that question. It’s still a question being asked, I think. Some of them did know. Others didn’t.
DK: And, and because you were doing something out the ordinary was there any special instructions about if you were ever taken prisoner?
PL: Just to keep your mouth closed.
DK: Right.
PL: Not say anything.
DK: And, and were any of the Liberators lost on operations?
PL: A few. Not many. A few were lost.
DK: So, as you, as you’ve come back from an operation you’re landing back at your base what was it, what was the feeling like when you landed?
PL: Oh, absolute jubilant. We were let off. We let off steam.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Down to the nearest pub.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Celebrate.
DK: And then sometimes I assume you were flying again the following night.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And how did it work because not all of you were flying out, flying these operations at the same time? Did you have crews that were sort of sleeping and then you came in?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And you didn’t have a regular plane, did you? You just took a plane.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: So they didn’t have like a, I thought that quite interesting.
DK: Ok.
Other: It was just a pool, a pool plane.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that was a good idea with a different Liberator each time?
PL: Well, we tried to. It was more popular to fly your own aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
PL: But if your own aircraft wasn’t available so be it. You took the one available which was serviceable.
DK: Yeah.
PL: That was the main thing.
DK: Yeah.
PL: All the equipment was serviceable.
DK: And then as the war was coming to an end what did, what did you do then? Did you, were you posted somewhere else or was there, was there talk of you going to the Far East?
PL: Yes, there was but it didn’t happen. Eventually peace crept up on us and we [pause] peace was declared and we just went our separate ways.
Other: You [pause] you did more. Dad told a great story. I don’t know if he remembers this but we asked him at the end of the war how did, you know how did dad feel? Bearing in mind he was a very young man.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: And dad said they had, you had to carry on doing some missions because they wanted to test see if it had worked.
DK: Oh right.
Other: So you carried on doing a few missions after the war, didn’t you? But you didn’t get your eggs and bacon flying rations so, and dad said, ‘I was just cross. I didn’t get my eggs and bacon anymore and I was still flying.’ Do you remember that?
PL: Yeah.
DK: So, oh that’s quite interesting. So after the war is finished you were still flying. Well, they’re not operations but it was still —
Other: No. Tests. They were tests.
DK: Tests. With the, with the captured German equipment.
Other: Yeah.
PL: Yes.
DK: Right.
Other: Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
Other: To test it.
DK: To test it to see whether your counter measures —
Other: Yeah.
DK: Had worked during the war.
PL: That’s right. That’s right.
DK: And can you recall these tests you did? Did it show that the counter measures had worked?
PL: In most cases. Yes.
DK: So, it was worth, worth doing then.
PL: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah. And that’s an interesting question because your role wasn’t to drop bombs it was actually to save other airman’s lives, wasn’t it?
PL: Yes.
DK: So, how does that make you feel?
PL: Well, it made us feel very good.
DK: Yeah. Because your role is to protect.
PL: Yes.
DK: Fellow servicemen, isn’t it?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. It’s strange because its something that’s not very well known is it? These missions.
PL: No. Hardly at all.
DK: Yeah. And the, did you stay in touch with the special operators after the war?
PL: Not particularly.
DK: No. So they were never able to tell you what they were doing when they were —
PL: No.
DK: No. And can you remember whereabouts in the aircraft they were, they were sitting?
PL: Yes. They had a position side by side. Very close to the wireless operator’s position.
DK: Right. So the Liberator itself it had all its bombing equipment taken out.
PL: Mostly, yes.
DK: And how big was the, can you remember how big their equipment was?
PL: About as big as the ordinary radio equipment.
DK: Right. Right. And they were, did they have curtains around them so you couldn’t see what they were doing?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So although you flew these operations it was a bit of a mystery as to what they were actually doing.
PL: Yes.
DK: How did that make you feel? Not quite knowing what was going on.
PL: Well, we knew roughly what was going on and that seemed to be good enough.
DK: Yeah. Ok. So the war’s ended then and presumably you stayed in the RAF then did you?
PL: Yes.
DK: And what were you doing post-war?
PL: Mainly training.
Other: Here we go. [pause] This is what he did. RAF Gutes —
DK: Gütersloh.
PL: Gütersloh. Yeah.
Other: Gütersloh.
DK: So you —
Other: In 1946.
DK: So you were posted to Germany soon after the war then.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And did you see much of Germany post-war?
PL: Yes.
DK: And did you go to some of the cities that had been bombed?
PL: Yes.
DK: And what sort of condition were they in then?
PL: Pretty grim.
Other: And then you went to Egypt, didn’t you?
PL: Yes.
DK: Oh. You visited the Mӧhne Dam.
Other: Yeah, this is, this is from dad’s time in Germany.
DK: Oh wow. So you went to see the Dams then.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: I think there was an RAF Leave Centre at the Mӧhne Dam.
DK: Right.
Other: That’s what dad’s written there. Do you remember that dad? And there’s like sailing on the lake. And then you were in Watchet in Somerset next. And then you went out to Egypt didn’t you? This is in Egypt.
DK: Right.
Other: In 1952.
DK: Oh right. So what sort of training were you doing post-war? Was it air gunnery again?
PL: It was gunnery. It wasn’t air gunnery. It was gunnery.
DK: Right. So, kind of looking back now all these years later how do you look back on your time in RAF Bomber Command. How does it make you feel now?
PL: I thought it was very educational and something not to be missed. It really was first class.
DK: You look back on what you were doing with a sense of pride.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And how do you feel how Bomber Command has been treated since then?
PL: Well, I think they’ve been treated fairly. They may not have had a lot of publicity but they’ve had their share. I think they’ve done well and they’ve reacted enormously.
DK: Yeah. And, and the Liberators then. Do you miss flying in those? Would you go back up in one now?
PL: I would go back in one.
DK: You would. Ok.
PL: But it was very noisy.
DK: Yeah.
PL: And draughty.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And cold wasn’t it, dad?
PL: Cold.
DK: So you never actually fired your gun in anger in the end then.
PL: No.
DK: No. Did you used to test fire them as you were?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Especially in bad weather. In cold weather.
DK: Right.
PL: We tested them regularly. Made certain they worked.
DK: Right. And you obviously had the American .5 inch Brownings then. Were they a better machine gun than what the others had? The .303s.
PL: I don’t think they were any better. They just carried a larger bullet that was all which did tremendous damage.
DK: Right.
PL: To take a broadside of .5s was quite something.
DK: Right. Because you’re quite unique really in veterans I have met who actually flew on the Liberators so I’d just like to ask did you feel safe flying in them?
PL: With the hand, with Jock Hastie at the controls. Yes.
DK: Right.
PL: But you needed a competent pilot.
DK: Right. So they were difficult aircraft to fly then were they?
PL: They were.
DK: Yeah
PL: To fly properly.
DK: And did you see any that were badly flown?
PL: Well, we, Chris Spicer was our co-pilot.
DK: Yeah.
PL: He occasionally made a misdemeanour and I remember Roy Hastie saying, ‘Get that wing up quickly,’ you know and obviously Chris was flying one wing low and it was getting very low.
DK: Yeah.
PL: And Roy Hastie intervened and said, ‘Get it up immediately.’
DK: Right. So he, he knew then there was a problem. Yeah. And did, did Hastie’s not passed away I assume then did he?
PL: He has now.
DK: Yeah. And did you stay in touch with him?
PL: For a long time.
DK: Yeah.
Other: And his widow. You stayed in touch with his widow, didn’t you?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: I think he died in his fifties.
DK: Oh, right.
Other: It’s a long —
DK: You obviously wrote a book about him.
Other: A book about him. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. I’ll just read this out for the recording. “Ordinary Man, Super Pilot - the Life and Times of Roy Hastie DFC AE.” By Peter Lovatt. So you obviously thought a lot of him to write a book about him.
PL: He was very impressive. He was out of the ordinary.
DK: And, and do you think he got the recognition for this? Or —
PL: Yes. I think he did. I think he was fairly recognised.
Other: He got a DFC didn’t he?
DK: Yeah. And did he carry on flying after the war? Do you know?
PL: He did. I think he did for a short while.
DK: And then left the RAF did he?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: But you stayed in touch with his widow until she died, didn’t you? This came out of dad’s PhD.
DK: Right. Ok.
Other: So dad did a PhD in radio counter in history and it was around radio counter measures wasn’t it dad? And the book came from that but you had promised Ida that you would write Jock’s story didn’t you?
[pause]
DK: Ok. If I stop that there then. Well, I should say thanks for your time. It’s been interesting with all this.
[recording paused]
Other: France, is it?
PL: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember the name of the other gunner?
PL: Bob Lawrence.
DK: Bob Lawrence. Yeah.
PL: Soapy and Bob. Soapy and Bob were dad’s good friends.
DK: Right. Did, this is another question actually did you have to work closely with the other gunners?
PL: Fairly closely. Yes.
DK: So the other waist gunner stood next to you then is he?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And then what would happen if one or either of you saw something a bit dangerous?
PL: Well, he’d tap me on the shoulder and get me to look.
DK: Right.
PL: And confirm or not confirm.
DK: And is, is night vision important then?
PL: Very important.
DK: Yeah. So if you, can you name them still?
PL: Yes. Soapy Hudson.
DK: Navigator.
PL: Navigator.
DK: Yeah. That’s you.
Other: That’s you.
PL: Bob Lawrence. Oh. That’s Hastie.
DK: Yeah.
PL: That’s the engineer.
DK: Jamie Brown.
PL: Jamie Brown.
DK: Yeah.
PL: And then that’s Wee —
Other: Is that wee Jock? Somebody Watson.
PL: Wee Jock Watson.
DK: Wee Jock Watson. Yeah.
Other: Yeah. And Syd Pienaar.
PL: Syd Pienaar.
DK: Syd Pienaar. Yeah. And what’s it like seeing a picture of the Liberator behind you?
PL: Yeah.
DK: So were you, were you about to go flying when the photo was taken?
PL: Yes.
DK: There’s, there is mention here about you returning to a base somewhere isn’t there? And you got no food.
Other: That’s right. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Is that —
Other: So, that’s the story when you went to the base and they wouldn’t let you have anything to eat. You had to do a landing so you were running low on fuel.
PL: Why?
Other: And it was foggy.
PL: Why did they say they didn’t —
Other: I don’t know [laughs]
DK: See if we can find it [pause. Pages turning] There? Should have counted these last time. So there’s the story here of the, the BF110 pilot that wasn’t very experienced and your pilot just throttled back.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
Other: Do you remember you told us the story that you were, that it was foggy at Oulton and you were low on fuel so you had to divert to another airfield and you got a bit of a hostile welcome when you got there. They didn’t give you any rations. Do you remember that?
PL: Vaguely.
Other: Vaguely [laughs]
DK: See if I can find it [pause] Oh, where’s it gone?
PL: They’re all marked with this.
DK: Yeah. So there you are. So this is your crew here then. So you’ve got the pilot is Hastie, Second Pilot Spicer, Navigator Hudson, Flight Engineer Brown, Wireless Operator Watson, Special Operator Beacroft.
PL: Yeah.
DK: And then Front Gunner Lockhurst, Mid-Upper Gunner Weston, waist gunner your good self, the other waist gunner Lawrence.
Other: Bob Lawrence. Yeah.
DK: And Rear Gunner Pienaar.
PL: Yeah.
Other: Didn’t you go, or didn’t you have to go as a rear gunner once and you didn’t like it?
PL: Yes.
Other: It made you feel sick.
PL: Yes.
DK: So you preferred the waist position then did you?
PL: Yes. I did.
DK: What was it like being in the rear gun turret? You’re being pulled backwards.
PL: Claustrophobic.
DK: Right. Where has that story gone? Typical isn’t it? Oh, here we are.
Other: There we are. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. It is. So this is the waist gunner, yourself. It says, “Coming home the German flak around Hamburg was extremely accurate at twenty two thousand feet and hit our aircraft severely damaging number two engine.” Then it says, “Propeller had to be feathered.” And then you said you realised, “There was limited fuel to get back so you started throwing everything out.” Do you remember throwing everything out the aircraft?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So what would you have thrown out? The guns?
PL: Yes, guns and ammunition.
DK: Right.
Other: Heavy stuff.
DK: So, your pilot then, Roy has got the aircraft back to Oulton only to be told to divert because of bad weather and you were diverted to RAF Barford St James in Oxfordshire. This was not far away but the extra distance certainly added to the pilot’s problems. Barford was a Mosquito training station and they clearly liked their sleep. A Liberator arrived overhead to find not a single light showing below. Firing a red verey cartridge or two provoked some reaction and the airfield lights reluctantly switched on. You said here with his usual superb airmanship Roy landed his much bigger aircraft on the unfamiliar runway. As he taxied to the dispersal the three working engines cut out. The fuel exhausted. It had been a close run thing. Do you remember that?
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. You don’t mention here in the book that they then didn’t give you any bacon and eggs.
PL: No. No.
DK: So you got no breakfast.
PL: No.
DK: I hope you complained.
PL: We did [laughs].
DK: So that, so that wouldn’t be too unusual then diverting to another base.
PL: No.
DK: No.
PL: No. The weather did change and it was a surprise because the forecasters were generally very good but sometimes the weather took hold.
DK: Yeah.
PL: And the weather changed and you couldn’t land in your own airfield. You had to go somewhere else and you weren’t very popular if you woke them up.
DK: And what was it like flying through bad weather because normally when I fly it’s in an airliner. We are flying over the weather but what’s it like as you go through it?
PL: Well, pretty grim.
DK: So you buffeted around a lot.
PL: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So can you hear the hailstones?
PL: Yes. Oh, indeed. Yes.
DK: And did your aircraft ever freeze up at all? Ice up I should say.
PL: No. Not whilst we were flying. It did whilst it was on the ground.
DK: And, and what was the feeling then when in the mornings you were earmarked for operations?
PL: Well, we thought if we had to go we would have to use somebody else’s aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
PL: Which was never very popular.
DK: No. Ok, well let’s, let’s stop that there then.
[recording paused]
DK: So, sorry you were saying there that, can you say that again? That —
PL: Well, not all trips counted as an operation.
DK: Right.
PL: A quick trip to Duisburg dropping Window probably didn’t count as a full op.
DK: Oh right. So would that have been counted like a half an operation or something?
PL: Yes. Something like that. So you had to be very careful when you were adding up.
DK: Right.
PL: I probably did something like seventy trips but they didn’t all count.
DK: How did that make you feel then? Because you’re still facing the enemy gunfire.
PL: Yes.
DK: And everything else.
PL: It didn’t make us feel very happy.
DK: So when you came back then were you told when you’ve come back that it would only be a half a mission? Or were you told before you went?
PL: No. We were told much later.
DK: That’s not very nice is it?
PL: No.
DK: Oh well when I count these up I’ll count them as full missions [laughs]
PL: Alright [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Lovatt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALovattP170927, PLovattP1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Format
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00:45:52 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Peter enrolled in the Air Training Corp before joining the Royal Air Force. He went to Walney Island, the Air Gunnery School, and was given the option of becoming a Bevin Boy or an air gunner choosing the latter. Following training on Ansons he joined 223 Squadron, based at RAF Oulton operating B-24s. The squadron took off with the bomber stream and escorted them back home. He recalled some incidents, one involving a German night fighter and said that the Squadron did many Window operations. Another incident was when they were running out of fuel and had to throw equipment out. At the end of the war the squadron tested whether the counter measures had worked and the aircraft guns were tested regularly. Peter remembered members of his crew, with whom he socialised and kept in touch after the war. He stayed in the Royal Air Force after the war and was posted to Germany, RAF Watchet in Somerset and finally Egypt. He admires Bomber Command and has has written a book about their pilot, Roy Hastey.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
100 Group
223 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
bombing
RAF Oulton
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/944/11387/PMakensL1701.2.jpg
05b7ba41508ba4dde289a303dae307f7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/944/11387/AMakensL170117.1.mp3
f837a144815b5928751ae6cb9c78ae50
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Makens, Louis
L Makens
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Louis Makens (1921 - 2018, 1442236 Royal Air Force). He flew six operations as an air gunner with 196 Squadron before being transferred to 76 Squadron. He joined a new crew as a mid under gunner and their Halifax was shot down 18/19 March 1944 on his first operation with them. He became a prisoner of war and took part in the long march.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Makens, L
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Louis Maken.
LM: No. No. No.
Other: Louis.
DK: Louis. Sorry. Sorry. Louis Makens.
LM: My grandson. He don’t like it.
DK: Misinformed. I was misinformed [laughs] 17th of January 2017. If I put that there.
LM: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m not being rude I’m just making sure it’s still working. I’ve only been caught out by the technology once. It was a bit embarrassing.
LM: It wouldn’t take a lot to catch me out.
Other: No. It wouldn’t.
DK: Right. Ok. What I’m going to ask you first of all was going back now what were you doing immediately before the war?
LM: I worked on a farm.
DK: Ok.
LM: Market gardening and ordinary agriculture on a farm.
DK: Ok. So and then war started. What made you then want to join the RAF?
LM: We had, we were called up weren’t we? We had to register and I went for an interview and they gave me the choice of what you’d like to do and not being very smart I volunteered for air crew.
DK: Right.
LM: And went back to work and I suppose it must have been about a few months. Something like. I was about nineteen I got my call up papers saying to report to Uxbridge.
DK: Right.
LM: That was where they had done all the interviewing.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they asked you silly, well not silly little questions I suppose but half multiplied by half. That was one of the questions on, at the interview. And another one was if the Suez Canal got blocked how would the transport, how would they get cargo around to England?
DK: Oh right.
LM: And which was a long way around.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: The Cape of Good Hope, wasn’t it? And from then on I just had my papers come in. Called up. Report to Uxbridge and then from Uxbridge I went to a place called Padgate. We were kitted out at Padgate and I actually volunteered wireless operator air gunner.
DK: Right.
LM: And I’d done Blackpool in 1942 and there were some old hangars there where we used to do Morse Code [coughs] Morse Code in and I had a spell there and they asked for straight air gunners which was a lot quicker course.
DK: Right.
LM: Why? I don’t know why I volunteered for that. I don’t know to this day. Anyway, I volunteered and I was taken off the course there and from then on I had a life of leisure.
DK: Right.
LM: I went to a place called Sutton Bridge. That was a fighter OT Unit.
DK: Yeah.
LM: General duties. From Sutton Bridge the whole squadron moved up to Dundee and under the Sidlaw Hills. And there was a Russian aircraft landed at the airfield at Dundee.
DK: Oh right.
LM: And the camouflage was really marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And that was where I was on general duties up there as well. What we were doing going around with little bits and pieces. Anything. Anything there was to do which you’d gather what general duties mean.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Everything. And then I was called to, I got my call up from —
DK: Just stepping back a bit you never found out what the Russian aircraft was doing there then.
LM: Yes. Molotov.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
LM: Molotov came over.
DK: Oh.
LM: I’m sorry about that I should have —
DK: Did you actually see him?
LM: Yeah. No I never. No. No.
DK: No. Oh right.
LM: Only saw the plane at a distance.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Oh yeah.
DK: Wow.
LM: And it was quite funny really because I wouldn’t have believed it. There was a Scottish lad worked with me and he said to me, ‘Louis,’ he said, ‘How would you like to my parents and just meet my parents and just have a cup of tea with them.’ They lived in Dundee.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I had to get him to interpret what they said. I [pause] Dundee was really broad and I felt a really Charlie because you had to say, ‘Sorry. What did you say?’ and I had, I had to say things like that. But from there on I got called back to a place called Sealand.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And that’s where I met up with two lads who had already been the same thing as me further afield but they’d been on a wireless so they had decided to remuster as well. Quicker course. We’ll get in to action. Silly weren’t we?’ Anyway, Stan Gardiner was one of them and Harold Lambourn and how, I think Stan Gardener was a welterweight boxer. I didn’t realise that at the time.
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
LM: But I often wonder. We parted because they remustered as pilots.
DK: Right.
LM: And I remustered to straight air gunner. Well, while we were at Sealand we used to go with a Polish squadron and fly with a Polish squadron in Lysanders. Dive bombing for the ack ack training. And we used to fly up the Dee and almost looked up at the houses because you approached and then they’d quick climb and then dive on their guns.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But then I was posted to, from there I left them and I was posted to [home] house in London. That’s where we done the Lord’s Cricket Ground. Was it Lords or the Oval? One of those. And that’s where we’d done gas training and things like that and from there I was posted on to Bridlington and that’s where I done my gunnery, ITW for the second time.
DK: Right.
LM: And from there I was posted on to Stormy Downs.
DK: What did, what did the training involve then at ITW?
LM: At the ITW?
DK: Yeah.
LM: It was back to square one. You know what I mean by square one? Square bashing.
DK: Oh right.
LM: But we did go in to, Bridlington had on the front there was a shooting range. A twelve bore shooting range. Clay pigeons.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I won the competition and won twelve shillings and sixpence. And there was —
DK: You obviously went into the right duties then as an air gunner.
LM: I came away the best shot of the lot. I suppose I must have been. But no. But cutting it short there at Bridlington and then Stormy Down. From Stormy Down we went to Stradishall.
DK: Yeah.
LM: First we were on Wellingtons and then Stradishall was conversion on to Stirlings.
DK: Right.
LM: Now, I think —
DK: Just stepping back can you remember what it was you were flying at Stradishall? Just —
LM: Stirlings at Stradishall. I’m trying to think where I’d done my OTU. I’m not so sure where the Wellington, when I’d done the OTU on. I went to so many places. I’m not sure if I could swear blind.
DK: No.
LM: Where the Wellingtons were stationed. Where we, they had so many of them.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But I finished up at Stradishall and that’s where we were crewed up and already crewed up and I happened to be the seventh member of the crew.
DK: Right.
LM: Which I was a top gunner. A mid-upper.
DK: How did the crewing up work?
LM: Just, I was just introduced to them.
DK: Right.
LM: They were already crewed up.
DK: Right.
LM: But as they —
DK: They needed a gunner.
LM: As a yeah. They had to have a top gunner.
DK: Yeah.
LM: For the start of the four engines. Then finished Stradishall. And that’s where I’d done the odd circuits and bumps and that sort of thing. And one particular night I was laying in bed and I heard this machine gun fire and it was a Focke Wulf had come back that night. I got up the next morning. A Focke Wulf had come back and shot one of our planes down doing circuits and bumps and the only one hurt or I think I’m sure the news was that he got killed and he was Canadian. And he was a screened pilot. What we called a screened pilot.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Was one who, you know —
DK: Already done a tour.
LM: Already done his tour and I think he was teaching us to land.
DK: And he was killed in a, back in the UK while training others.
LM: Yeah. A fighter come back with the bombers to wherever they were going to or from and must have picked up Stradishall and that was how. So the next night we had to go. I was on the next night on circuits and bumps and of course the warning was if there’s a bandit in the area all the ‘drome lights would go out.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And of course, what happened? All the lights went out didn’t they? And we were still stooging around, stooging around, stooging around, waiting for well we didn’t know what was going to happen. Everybody was on edge and all of a sudden the lights come on. It was a dummy run. So we were a bit relieved about that but then after my OTU there and the, and the conversion at Stradishall I was posted to 196 Squadron Witchford.
DK: Right. Ok.
LM: As the mid, mid-upper gunner.
DK: Still on Stirlings.
LM: Still on Stirlings.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Yeah.
DK: So what were your thoughts about the Stirling then when you first saw it and flew in it?
LM: Well, as we went to Stradishall they stood behind almost on the edge of the road where we went.
DK: Right.
LM: And they were massive and if you can imagine what a Wellington was like. Quite low down.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You could almost touch the nose. These Stirlings. They’re twenty two foot to the nose in the air. I have to be careful what I say if this is going down on there. But —
DK: We can edit the bits out later.
LM: Well, yeah. You’ll better cut this piece out because I think what happened our pilot who he’d been out in Rhodesia, flying out in Rhodesia and I think when he saw them he got a fright.
DK: Really?
LM: We had [laughs] we had some near misses. Or near tragedies. When you come in to land you’ve got your three lights. Red too low.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Green. Lovely. Amber too high. We would come in on no lights at all.
DK: Right.
LM: Nose down. And I just used to sit there like that. ‘Christ, what’s he doing?’ And I could have landed the plane quite easily because when you sit in that top turret a beautiful view and I used to sit on the beam like that and check, check, check and I could get that to a tee. I’m not boasting about how. I couldn’t fly a plane anyway. But the bomb aimer, the wireless operator he had his parachute like that every time we landed and we came in —
DK: Not giving the pilot confidence is it? Or having confidence in your pilot if he’s doing that.
LM: No. None whatsoever.
DK: No.
LM: We’d been to Skagerrak mine laying and we came in this night and I got caught sharp a bit. Get down a bit. Down a bit. A bit high. Came in. Bang. We hit the ground, smashed the undercarriage up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Soared up unto the air and of course came down again and the undercarriage had gone because we went down on to one wing and slid, as luck would have it we went off the runway onto the grass. We never did land on the runway or take off on it. There was either run off at the end or whatever. Oh, you have got to watch what you put on there haven’t you? [laughs] He might be alive. I don’t know what happened. Later on I was, we didn’t, we went on, went from Witchford to Leicester East. Irby.
DK: Right. Just going back to Witchford can you remember how many operations you did from there?
LM: Altogether there was six.
DK: Right.
LM: That was the seventh one. Number seven on the night we got shot down.
DK: Right.
LM: And that was the first time on the first raid we’d done with, first I’d done with Halifaxes.
DK: Right. So when did you convert to the Halifax then?
LM: Well, I didn’t convert. I was just, we were made surplus.
DK: Right.
ILM: We went towing gliders and that sort of thing and eventually that was what they called we were transferred to what they called the AEAF. That’s the Allied Expeditionary Air Force so therefore they decided they didn’t want a top turret. Extra drag. Which you would get wouldn’t you?
DK: Yeah.
LM: With the top turret on so we were made redundant in a way.
DK: Right.
LM: And there were six of us were taken off 196 Squadron and we were posted to Marston Moor and from Marston Moor we were then sent up to Holme on Spalding Moor. They had then fitted a gun emplacement, a beam if you’d like to call it that underneath the plane.
DK: And that’s on the Halifaxes.
LM: That was on the Halifaxes.
DK: It was like a belly gun in effect.
LM: A mid-under they called it.
DK: Yeah. Right.
LM: It wasn’t a turret as such it was just a, it was a piece of metal stuck on the bottom as near as near as I can explain it.
DK: Right.
LM: You had a .5 between your legs.
DK: Was that something the squadron itself had done or was it an official —
LM: It was what they were trying to get.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We were getting so many attacks from below.
DK: Right.
LM: Because as you know you can’t see below your own height can you?
DK: Yeah.
LM: It’s very difficult to see. You can see upwards but you can’t see below your own horizon.
DK: And were you aware at the time that a lot of the attacks by the Germans were from underneath?
LM: It was known.
DK: It was known.
LM: It was well known.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Oh yes. Yeah. That was well known. That was the idea of fetching this gun underneath.
DK: Right.
LM: And the Germans knew very well that we were [pause] well no protection underneath at all coming up from —
DK: So, you’re now with 76 Squadron at this point.
LM: That was 76 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re now in the, in the belly.
LM: That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, I had never met my crew that I flew on that night with.
DK: Right.
LM: We went to briefing. We went, we’d done a little bit of training on it. There weren’t all that much more training to do. It was only sort of getting used to a .5 and that sort of thing and a fair old go on that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And the first time I actually met my crew was when I was a prisoner of war.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Well, after I’d been shot down I should say.
DK: Right. So you only did the one operation [unclear]
LM: That was the very first one.
DK: And you were shot down.
LM: We were shot down the very first night. There was six of us went and I think there were three of us allocated to go that night.
DK: Right.
LM: March the 18th 1944. I should have been at a wedding.
DK: Can you recall where the operation was to?
LM: Yes. Oh yeah. Frankfurt.
DK: Frankfurt. Ok.
LM: Yeah. Frankfurt. And we were about twenty, twenty minutes from the target.
DK: Right.
LM: And everything was quiet. Not a very good thing in a way and we hadn’t crossed any borders as such for anti-aircraft or anything like that and every now and again the pilot would just call up and say, ‘Are you alright?’ And so forth, ‘Gunner.’ So forth. And the next thing I knew there was a blaze of bullets, well incendiaries, you couldn’t see the bullets. Incendiaries. And I sat in the turret like that you see facing the rear and the bullets came through, went between my legs. Almost. I was stood. They went between my legs. Well, there was the pilot looking out the front. There was the navigator [pause] could have been I suppose. The bomb aimer should have been in the, in the astrodome looking out. Top gunner in the top turret. The only two of us who saw the bullets were myself and the rear gunner.
DK: And this was from a German aircraft presumably.
HLM: That was [laughs] that’s hard to say.
DK: Oh right.
LM: I don’t know. We never saw the plane. It was head on.
DK: Right [unclear]
LM: So was it one of ours?
DK: Ah.
LM: Well, I’ll never know.
DK: No.
LM: I don’t think so.
DK: No.
LM: But they were fairly heavy. It weren’t small machine gun fire so it could well have been a night fighter. And when you think that no one up front saw the tracers at all.
DK: Were they an experienced crew do you know? Or —
LM: Were they —?
DK: Were they an experienced crew that you —
LM: They’d done, they’d done seven nights. They’d already done seven operations.
DK: Right. Ok [unclear]
LM: Yeah. And four that night.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. Yeah. They weren’t over experienced. Like I was I suppose. But, but they hadn’t, they, I sometimes think how ever I got away with being missed in that dustbin when you think of the midair of that aircraft wing as mid —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Fuselage.
DK: It’s, you’re in there then.
LM: That’s right. That little bit underneath.
DK: Yeah. Do you know what other damage was done to the aircraft then? Or —
LM: Well, we caught on fire.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. They hit the inboard. The inboard starboard engine and I thought well that’s all right. With the old extinguishers put the flames out. Anyway, we went on a little while and there was quite a, it was getting quite light then because we were on fire and the pilot, David Josephs was my pilot. Never knew him at the time.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But I found out later on and he said, ‘Prepare to bale out.’ Which is the first thing, isn’t it? So I opened my hatch up and just stood there. Kept on the intercom. Kept on oxygen and the top gunner he’d already got out of his turret and he came down and opened the back hatch.
DK: Right.
LM: And he must have thought because it was quite light because of the flames and so forth and he thought, I think he thought I’d been hit because I was still in the turret and standing up. He came back and he went to get a hold of me like that and I went, ‘Ok. I’m alright. I’m alright. I’m ok.’ Well, the pilot hadn’t told us to bale out then. But he did eventually say, ‘Right. Well, better get out. Bale out.’ So that was myself and the top gunner. We went to the back hatch and when you go out you have to roll out otherwise you’re likely to hit the tailplane or the fin.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Which is easily done. So it was quite comical in a way. It must have been a comedy act. We stood near the hatch or laid near the hatch arguing who was going out first. I’d, I’d seen it happen. People who baled out and they’d extinguished the flames, the [unclear] switch or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And put the flames out and they’d flown back.
DK: Right.
LM: I thought I’m not going to be, I’m not going to be here on my own so we, Spider went out first and I toddled out behind him. But I went out with my arms folded like that because when I put my parachute on you don’t wear it all, you sort of have it beside you.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: So I quick put on my hooks.
DK: So you [unclear] then
LM: Clipped them on the hooks.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And I think what happened you’re supposed to leave, lose speed count up to seven because you’re travelling at a hundred and something, a hundred and eighty mile an hour. The first thing I knew, bang. The parachute had, whether the slipstream caught my hands and my parachute, must have pulled the parachute, the rip cord.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The next thing I knew that was bang. Oh, the pain, the jerk on your neck. People don’t realise it’s a —
DK: As the parachute opened.
LM: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
LM: It almost feels like you break, you know.
DK: So is it is it a chest ‘chute you’ve got then?
LM: Yeah. Chest.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Chest it was. No seated ones then. We always carried them and just stuck them in the little hole at the side of the, of your turret.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, I don’t know how long it was coming down but when I looked down I thought, oh shite. Water. I thought I can’t be over water. That’s one thing I always dreaded. Coming down in the, in the sea. And what it was the plane was on fire and that had gone down and there was snow on the ground and little hillocks that looked like waves.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And [unclear] It just looked like a patchwork of little waves. Anyway, the lower I got they disappeared. Anyway, I hit, the next thing I knew I was laying on my back groaning. I can remember now as if it was yesterday I laid there and thought oh, oh. I sort of shook myself up and of course up I got and I tried to pull the parachute in and got caught on a tree.
DK: Right.
LM: Right on the edge of a wood. As I went to pull the parachute in I thought, oh Christ there’s someone there. One of my old crew. So I sort of called out. No answer. It was just somebody falling in.
DK: Yeah.
LM: It wasn’t a crew at all. It was a piece of grass that was just doing that with the back light, the back sight of the flaming plane where it had gone down on the horizon.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Was casting this little piece of grass going along. I could imagine someone pulling a parachute in.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Anyway, I couldn’t get the parachute off the tree. I tried to get it down and I had to leave. What I’d done I just curled up under a hedge and I don’t know where the hell [pause] escape kit. Lost it. I had it, you had it park it on the side of your leg and it must have come out as I was upside down or —
DK: What would have been in the escape kit you’d got [unclear] ?
LM: Oh, you’d got a map.
DK: Right.
LM: Chocolate. One or two. Quite little bits of ration material.
DK: Right.
LM: A compass, etcetera but I lost them and so I curled up under a hedge and I had to sleep until it was daybreak. And I got up the next morning and when I woke up and I thought now sun is coming up in the east. If I go towards the sun I might make my way to France. But I wasn’t anywhere near France, was I? [laughs] Not really. I wouldn’t have met, I don’t think I would have, I don’t know. But anyway, I knew I wanted to go east because of the sun coming up and Germany here, France going in that direction sort of business and I thought if I make my way that way I might be able to come up against somebody but I went and I travelled for a day and never saw anybody. The next day I was walking what do you do? I covered my, took my boots and covered them up. I was lucky in a way digressing a little bit normally you know the old flying boot we used to have?
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old fleecy lined things.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Huge things. Well, I hadn’t. My equipment hadn’t arrived at 76 Squadron so I borrowed the squadron leader’s equipment. His flying boots. And we had, I had an electrically heated suit.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because it was cold. We are talking about twenty two frost and I had an electrically heated suit. That’s your socks and just a jacket and I had his size elevens flying boots. Normally your flying boots fly off which they will do quite easily. That just shows the force of the parachute opening doesn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
LM: And how I kept them on I can only imagine I had electrically heated socks inside them. That’s how I think, the only way I can think I kept those shoes or flying boots three times the size of mine.
DK: So they were wedged in there with the sock.
LM: They must have been fairly —
DK: Yeah.
LM: No end of people. That’s the, my pilot lost his.
DK: Yeah.
LM: He was walking about with a, when I saw him last, the first time I met him he had got pieces of rag wrapped around his feet and that was one of the problems. Getting frostbite.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I think I got a little bit of frostbite on that ear and it’s still there. But lucky I didn’t get any more and no one else did. Anyway, I eventually I got, I did walk into two, I’d compare them with our Home Guard.
DK: Right.
LM: Two old boys walking over a bridge and where the village was, God knows, I have no idea and these two old lads walked towards me and all of a sudden they walked towards, crossed the road towards me like that and he pulled out a big revolver and I, that’s it. So I put my hands up. ‘Flieger. Flieger.’ And they took me back to their headquarters all dolled out with Hitlerites and all that sort of thing on the wall and they weren’t very, they didn’t seem too bad. They were the oldest of people and they took me to their little headquarters and then they had to get the Army to come and pick me up and they took me to another, somewhere else. Got above, it was only a walk from somewhere else to there. Well then, they sent in ex-RAF. The Luftwaffe.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Two of them came and picked me up and I was a little bit lucky in a way because we were walking along. They didn’t bother too much about whether you’d got hit or not. The Germans didn’t care. If somebody hit you with a hammer even. We was walking along and it was a Hitler Youth I think. Something in that region. He came up, he said, a lot of them spoke good English. He said, ‘Did you raid Cologne? Were you on a raid on Cologne?’ I said, ‘No. No. No. No.’ I said, ‘This was my first raid. First time.’ Well, it was a lie because I’d already got the 1939 43 Star on my tunic.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And he didn’t think nothing. He couldn’t have been, he couldn’t have fathomed that one out because well he probably didn’t know what they, what it was anyway.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And he just went away because Cologne was awful one wasn’t it? That was an awful thing.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And eventually they took me to their barracks and they were good. They gave me, the Germans, they gave me a lovely piece of black bread and jam. I’d had one taste of it and I threw it across the bloody cell. I thought, oh Christ and I couldn’t eat it. I just could not eat it. Which I learned different later on. Well, I went and laid on this old bunk of a bed sort of thing and the next thing I knew there was a boot in my back and they, then they brought the pilot. They’d got the pilot.
DK: Right.
LM: And one, I think that was the rear gunner. They’d picked them up as well. And that’s the first time I had met my pilot.
DK: Bizarre.
LM: And we were on our own until we got on with the crew itself.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But for some reason David Josephs, name spelled Joseph, J O S E P and do you remember Keith Josephs?
DK: The politician?
LM: Yes.
DK: Oh yes. Yes.
LM: He was the dead spit.
DK: Oh Right. Oh.
LM: Exact. Exact. Well he palled, why I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
LM: He palled up with me.
DK: Right.
LM: Not his crew.
DK: Did you think he was related then or —
LM: Well, I would have swore blind he was. He never said. We never spoke about private life. We never told each other what we’d done, or what we did or what we hadn’t done or anything like that. It was just you met them and that was it.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Like when we left we never left any, I often wish I had have done. Kept in touch perhaps with two of the lads I escaped with. I would have loved to have known what happened to them.
DK: No.
LM: But you don’t. You’re so keen to just carry on. Carry on. Carry on regardless of what goes on around you really. It’s —
DK: So were you then sent to a proper prisoner of war camp at that point?
LM: I was taken back. Now this is the bit that really peeved me at one time because I often think of it. They took me back to Frankfurt.
DK: Right.
LM: And I saw Frankfurt’s Railway Station what they were doing to Germany that we were doing or we were getting over in London and I thought the very same thing. There was people on the station with a, one particular person there was a woman with a little child and they’d got a basket, a linen basket like that between them.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I suppose they were trying to get out. Mind you that was two days after they’d been bombed quite a bit then day and night you see. We were full incendiary. That was all we carried that night was incendiaries.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But that, then I’d done solitary confinement. They put you in solitary there and there was a raid on that night and that [pause] we had all sort of a, there was solitary confinement and there was a blind you could almost it was like a slab of blind and the light, you could even see the lights flashing through this sort of one of these old plated blinds sort of things.
DK: But flashes of the explosions.
LM: Yeah. Of the, of the raid.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Yeah. And I was there three days and they asked you all sorts of questions and a corporal he must, think he was a corporal he looked like it to me. Got a couple of stripes of some sort and he came down and he interviewed so forth to this. He’d got a big list where I’d come from. You only say what you know. Or you’re supposed to say name, rank and [pause] name, rank and whatever.
DK: I was going to ask that. If I could just take you back a bit did you have training as to what to do if you were caught as a —
LM: None whatsoever. We were —
DK: Ok [laughs]
LM: We were just told the general thing. Name, rank and number.
LM: It was a general thing. Name, rank and that’s all.
DK: So you had no other training if you ever were captured.
LM: No. No. that’s all we, never even had trained parachute jumping. Never had. Never had a [pause] The art is the falling over and rolling over you see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, I hit the ground straight legged.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I think that’s why I knocked myself out. I think that’s the reason. I must have hit the ground straight legged.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Instead of doubling up and falling over.
DK: Yeah. And rolling. Yeah.
LM: Which is the correct way.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I knew the way but you can’t tell how far off the ground you are you see.
DK: At night. Yeah.
LM: And the last fifteen feet or the last little bit was like jumping off the wreck and like jumping off a fifteen foot wall when you hit the ground quite hard.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So that was part and parcel. They’d never done, I don’t know if it was the pilot’s fault or not. I don’t know ‘til this day if he should have made his crew take part in —
DK: Training. Yeah.
LM: Escaping or whatever or what to say what not to say. No one else did. We never had any training of that at all.
DK: And, and dinghy practice. Did you ever have any of that?
LM: No. we were, I did learn to swim.
DK: Right.
LM: At Blackpool and if we could swim a width.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s all you had to do.
DK: So you had no training on what to do if you crashed on water, baling out or — [unclear]
LM: No, we had none.
DK: No.
LM: I think some did.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We had no training whatsoever.
DK: Wow.
LM: Never had. They just, all they told us was when you go out to roll over the hatch.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Rather than the other way.
DK: Avoiding the —
LM: I had seen a lad. He had knocked his teeth out. He’d hit the tailplane. But apart from that we didn’t. It was —
DK: Yeah.
LM: The discipline I suppose we were treated very leniently.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because when I I thought I was going to get out of a church parade so when I joined up they say religion. I said none. I thought I’ll get out of church parade doing this and they put atheist on my dog tags.
DK: Oh right.
LM: So they were on until the day I lost them.
DK: Oh right. Can I just take you back then to Frankfurt? You were interrogated there after three days.
LM: Yes.
DK: Solitary confinement, so you’ve only given name, rank and serial number and that. What happened after? Next after that?
LM: They don’t [pause] they will keep you there and keep asking you questions and they showed me a list. I thought good God. They could have shown, they could have told me much more than I knew. I couldn’t. I couldn’t. If I’d have wanted I couldn’t have told them anything.
DK: So their intelligence then on the aircraft, the squadron —
LM: They knew every airfield. They knew every airfield and what there was. They got this map of every, almost every airfield in this country.
DK: Wow. Did they know who was based there on these airfields?
LM: They knew the squadrons as well. They’d got the squadrons down. My old squadron 196.
DK: Yeah.
LM: That was down there. I may have shown that because I thought 196 I just and the realised then that —
DK: Yeah.
LM: You don’t think that they’re using you know on the spur of the moment. I thought 196 and Witchford.
DK: So they had all that intelligence. Did they have names at all as to who the commanding officers were?
LM: No idea.
DK: No. No.
LM: No. I don’t. What on the German side you mean?
DK: On the other side. Yeah.
LM: No. I wouldn’t. No. No. There was the treatment we got in the prison camp we can’t grumble.
DK: Right.
LM: I mean we went over there.
DK: Can you remember which prison camp it was?
LM: Yeah. After leaving, after leaving Frankfurt.
DK: Yeah.
LM: On the old cattle trucks and we were going along and I thought oh whatever is that smell? Christ. And there was a lot of us in this cattle truck. I didn’t realise at the time it was an American and he had been, he must have been loose a little bit for a while before he got caught because he’d got frost bite and his foot had got gangrene and I’d never smelled anything like it. He sat with his shoe off and he was like that and I realised then what he’d got. And his foot was absolutely. I don’t know what it was like inside the sock but he’d obviously got frost bite and it had turned to gangrene.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we called at a place called Sagan. That’s Stalag Luft 3.
DK: So it’s Stalag Luft 3.
LM: That’s the officers.
DK: Yeah.
LM: That’s the officer’s camp.
DK: Right.
LM: Stopped at the officers off or whatever there was to get off there and from there on we travelled through Poland by train and I can’t tell to this day how long so I weren’t one of those who made notes of where we were, what we’d done, it was just one of those things. You accepted what had happened and eventually arrived at a place called [pause] up in Lithuania [pause] Sally, what was the name of it?
Other: I weren’t there grandad.
LM: Anyrate, it was not, not all that far away from, now when you get to my age that happens you know. You lose your train of thought a little bit don’t you?
DK: I do now [laughs]
Other: Yes. So do I [laughs]
LM: But no, I —
DK: So it was a camp in Lithuania.
LM: Stalag Luft, no, Stalag Luft 6.
DK: Stalag Luft 6. Right.
LM: Up in Lithuania.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s right.
DK: Ok. Ok.
LM: Anyway, with the name Twy, I think it was [Twycross] or something like that. We were the furthest north of any camp.
DK: I was going to say that’s someway east isn’t it you were?
LM: Yeah. We were right up near the Russians.
DK: Russians. Yeah.
LM: Because it was a bit [pause] Dixey Dean. A great footballer wasn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
LM: He was our camp leader.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Yeah. Dixie Dean.
DK: Did you get to know him well?
LM: No. No.
DK: No.
LM: Oh no. Didn’t. Well, I knew him.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But he didn’t converse with very [pause] He could speak fluent German.
DK: Right.
LM: Been a prisoner of war for a long while and he used to go to Sagan the officer’s camp and converse with the Germans there on the conditions of camp and all that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because he knew the Geneva Convention backwards.
DK: Oh right.
LM: And when we could, 19th June 1944 when, the Second Front —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Now, they knew that in the camp but no one said.
DK: So, it was a decoy then.
LM: They wouldn’t let us know.
DK: No. Right.
LM: They knew that Dean and his escape, whatever they were radio, they’d got a radio because they used to come around and give us the news each night. Someone would come around and just and sometimes a German would do that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old goon would.
DK: So how big was the camp there? How many prisoners were there roughly.
LM: I don’t know but I’d hazard a guess. In our camp compound alone there would be one, two, three, four, five, six, sixteen, six, eight. Oh, three or four hundred if not more.
DK: Right.
LM: Yes. They were all officers. All NCOs.
DK: NCOs. Yeah.
LM: And then —
DK: And what were you in? Were you in sort of cabins or Nissen huts or —
LM: One long, one long hut.
DK: One long hut.
LM: There were bunks.
DK: Right.
LM: And if the weather was nice and we were going on parade and roll call then some of the lads would play up and they would nip up or make a count wrong. We reckoned they could only, they could only count in fives the Germans. So we said they could only count in their fives and the lads would play up a bit. But if it was raining.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We used to put a head out the end of the pit and they would come along and count you and we behaved ourselves then.
DK: Right.
LM: But there was a case where we came, we could, later on it must have been getting towards August we could hear the Russians from where we were.
DK: Right.
LM: The tales we heard about what happened to the Russian guards and the German guards when they got taken by the opposite side.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They didn’t take prisoners.
DK: No.
LM: They didn’t take either side. They didn’t touch the prisoners but the guards they shot them. So there was no love lost between them.
DK: No. So —
LM: Well eventually, yeah —
DK: As I say could you briefly describe what the camp looked like? Presumably you’d got barbed wire as a —
LM: Yeah.
DK: Watch towers and —
LM: Yeah. You had the old, I’ve got a couple of paintings upstairs that a fella had done in the prison camp.
DK: Right. Right. So it’s a compound thing.
LM: It was a big, what it amounted to was, was a big area.
DK: Right.
LM: And your huts one, two, three, four. Long huts. About must have been more than twenty yards I suppose all tiered both sides. You had an odd table in the middle and around the outside of that was your walking area.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Always had that. Then you had a warning wire. They called it a warning wire. That was just a little board that ran along. You mustn’t put your foot over that otherwise they would shoot you.
DK: Yeah.
LM: If you put your foot over the warning wire. Then you had your barbed wire.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And then the goons were up in their —
LM: In towers.
LM: Towers.
DK: And you were just watched the whole time.
LM: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, what, what did you do to pass the time because days must have —
LM: Walk around the, we weren’t allowed to go out. Now, early on they were allowed to go out as working parties but there were so many RAF tried to escape.
DK: Right.
LM: Escape. And they stopped it. We weren’t allowed outside the camp. Once you were in there you didn’t come out until they wanted to move you which they did us. From the Russians you see.
DK: Right.
LM: And no, we weren’t allowed outside the camp.
DK: And —
LM: It was —
DK: And with the restraints there would have been were you treated well then? Or treated [unclear]
LM: In the camp there was no hard [pause] no. But I don’t think I would say I was treated badly. We went over there to kill them but to me we were treated fairly. Geneva Convention. They abided by that.
DK: And what was the food you got then?
LM: Well, that, now that’s sauerkraut.
DK: Right.
LM: And there was an American parcel and an English parcel. Now, the English parcels, well obviously England was struggling to even feed their own people, weren’t they? So they weren’t the serviceability of the package wasn’t very good because we would get in the British parcel or English parcel we would get condensed milk.
DK: Right.
LM: Well, that weren’t, that wouldn’t keep. But the American parcels were in a nice cardboard box and we’d get oh quite a little bit of chocolate etcetera etcetera and you know different things in there.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And used to tide us over. You’d only get a parcel between perhaps four or five or six or seven of you.
DK: And are these parcels that have gone through the Red Cross then?
LM: Yeah.
DK: So they were done, made up in Britain or America by the International Red Cross.
LM: They were already sent. Yeah.
DK: Somehow —
LM: They were the Red Cross. Yeah.
DK: Right.
LM: But they used to puncture them before they came. They couldn’t empty them but they could puncture the tins before they came in.
DK: Right.
LM: And this went on until when we, we knew the Russians weren’t far away. We could hear gunfire in the distance and we were told this and that, this and that. And then eventually they said we would have, they were going to move us out of the camp to another camp. So we deserved what we got in a way because there used to be what they called in the American parcel it was called klim. It was a lovely powdered milk. It was milk spelled backwards.
DK: Oh right. Yes.
LM: See. That was called klim. Milk spelled backwards.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We had, when you said did they treat us alright we weren’t badly treated as such at all but the food weren’t, it was a bit sparce. I mean we got a loaf of bread and that was black bread between seven.
DK: Right.
LM: And no argument as one would cut it up in seven pieces and you just had a slither of a loaf. No argument at all about how big yours was and how small it was or whatever.
DK: I suppose you had to get on with your fellow prisoners then.
LM: Oh yes. Yes. Because you could soon lose your old temper. I’ve seen that happen but not not very often. Not very often because when well I suppose in a way we were very, everybody was an individual in their way because we weren’t like the Army as such. We didn’t mix like the Army did because you were a crew on a crew.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You just kept your crew. You had somebody look after you when you went in for your meals and so forth in the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing. But then we had, they told us we were going to evacuate to a port. We had to walk to a port called Memel. That was in the Baltic.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Well, we could hear the Russians firing and so forth and whatever was happening and we decided we couldn’t take all this stuff with us because we’d got quite, as we came out of the camp they were crafty in a way because before we came out of the camp we thought well we’ll not, we won’t leave anything. What people can eat or do so we had Oleo margarine and they were tins about that big. Quite a lot we had of that. And we stood them up and we were throwing these tins at each other. Had the bloody tins stood up. And there was also this klim milk. Now that was really you mixed that up and it would make, you could make a real nice cream of it.
DK: Right.
LM: So we thought we’re not leaving that. So what we’d done I don’t know whether you’d call it carbolic soap. What they used to call Sunlight? You know the old, what they used to wash.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The old ladies used to wash with. We grated that up. We put that in with the milk and we left it there and I reckon the Germans must have, they must have tried that and instead of them getting a nice cream there was this powdered milk. This powdered milk all mixed in with the little grated —
DK: Just soap.
LM: We even powdered up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Just like the milk so they really couldn’t say look at it and think I ain’t very keen on this. So I, we did pay for it later on. And anyway they marched us to this port called, it was Memel and had to go down in a coal ship. We had to go down this hatch and you left all your, whatever equipment you’d got you had to leave that on the deck.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So we said, ‘We’re not going down there. Not going down a bloody hole in a ship and go through the Baltic.’ They said, ‘If you don’t go down we’ll put the hoses on you.’ And they threatened to hose us with the, they’d got these hoses on deck and so forth so we did actually go down in to the hold of the ship. But there weren’t room to sit. Not to lay down especially. You could just squat.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The trouble was that some of the lads all they had to escape was a ladder, a vertical ladder to this little sort of porthole and some of the lads got a bit of diarrhoea as well because it wasn’t long before the food sort of affected people.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And if they wanted to go to the toilet which a lot did. They couldn’t stomach, some people couldn’t stomach this sauerkraut and things like that so they did have to go to the toilet pretty regular. I was one of the opposite. Absolutely. And anyway, we went to go down in to the ship and away we go and they had what they called the old [unclear] and that was for the mines.
DK: Right.
LM: To ships against mines. We’d already mined that with, with these acoustic they were quite a huge mine. About, they’d be about fifteen foot long.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Twelve, thirteen, fifteen long what we used to drop and that was a bit of a risk because you had to —
DK: So you would actually drop mines in to the Baltic.
LM: Yes. Yeah.
DK: And were now —
LM: I hadn’t dropped them in to the Baltic but I had elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
LM: The RAF had.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And they would [pause] they would, that was a bit of a hazardous old job because you had to come down almost to zero feet. You cut your, you dropped your flaps just to sort of give you a bit of buoyancy and you cut your speed down as low as possible. Just above stalling speed. You’d be down to perhaps a hundred and twenty mile an hour and only about two or three hundred feet high.
DK: Yeah.
LM: So if you were lucky you didn’t go over a flak ship but if you did then they could just blow you to smithereens. So that was, people used to say that used to count as a half an op.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But it alright maybe it weren’t because you used to go there, come back and never see a thing.
DK: But you were still on an operation.
LM: You were lucky, you were lucky if you to just get by and —
DK: Yeah.
LM: And never even have anybody fire at you but no, we I suppose the prison camp weren’t too bad and we’d done three seventy odd hours on that boat and you were allowed up on deck one at a time so you could just imagine how long, I don’t know how many I wouldn’t like to say hazard a guess how many were down in the hold of that ship. Hundreds of us. Sitting there. And we came to a place called Swinemünde.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: You’ve heard of Swinemünde have you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Have you? Nuremburg was laying there. One of their battle cruisers?
DK: Right.
LM: They took us off the ship and we went, had to get in these cattle trucks and the barbed wire was across the centre of the carriage. You had a half a door, half a door where the prisoners could get in. The other half was for the guards to get in.
DK: Right.
LM: And we had to take our shoes off but what have we got and put them through the barbed wire into the side where the guards were. And then the Germans used to pee in them at night if they didn’t want to get out, couldn’t get out. They used to use them as a toilet.
DK: Wonderful.
LM: And while we were there there was a raid on or supposedly. It weren’t really a raid I don’t think because I learned afterwards that was only one plane and they put a smokescreen over the whole docks and the Nuremberg opened fire on that. It was an American plane, broad daylight and the cattle trucks you could see daylight appear between the wood. Those guns exploding, the vibration we weren’t all that far away from Nuremberg itself.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And so anyway that’s when they took us out from there. They took us across down to a place called [pause] it was quite a way we went. I don’t know the name of the place really. I couldn’t say because they were the same as us. They did block, there were no names on villages or anything like that.
DK: Yeah.
LM: We eventually arrived at our destination and I never heard this. I can honestly say I never heard it. Some of the lads who wrote, if you read the book called, “The Last Escape” they said the Germans, they could tell. They could hear them sharpening their swords, their bayonets. But I didn’t hear it. To be truthful I never heard any. Maybe if I’d heard it I wouldn’t have paid much attention to it anyway. So they unloaded us from the trucks and then made us line up in fives and I’d got this kit bag. As luck would have it I’d got my kit bag. When I got off the boat I’d got this kit bag with my name on and I grabbed that and so I carried that with me and whatever stuff you could carry on your own.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You, or somebody sorted out later on and they loaned us, took off, we come, they lined us in fives. The same old thing again and these, all the guards at that particular time that started off were young Naval lads.
DK: Right.
LM: And we reckoned they came off that they were coming from a Naval dockyard just to see. To escort us to this camp Stalag Luft 4B.
DK: Right.
LM: Not far from Stettin. Well, everybody had got their kit and I stood like that and with the kit bag down the front and this German lad came along and I’ve still got a wound, a star there I think. One of them, he stuck a bayonet in you see. He said, ‘Pick it up. Pick it up.’ So I looked at him and that’s where he stuck the bayonet. As luck would have it it went in to my finger and it came up against my belt. An old hessian sort of RAF belt. Oh. And they had to pick it up and hold it there while we were just waiting. Then they they all —
DK: Your hand’s bleeding presumably at this point.
LM: Very little.
DK: Oh right.
LM: Hardly any blood.
DK: Right.
LM: I reckon it just went right to the bone.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Quite painful. I’ve got a little scar there now which, which you can see some left me a little bit of a scar there. They’re still there today. And they started, we had to march off and it weren’t a march at all. We had to run. Well just imagine they started on the lads up the front and while they carried their kit they kept —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Jabbing. Jabbing. Jabbing, and one lad had over seventy bayonet wounds we counted on him when we got the other end and until they’d dropped their kit they kept sticking the bayonet in and so of course we being quite tail enders we were, it was like steeple chase. And then of course then they got on to us and we, when we started off we’d some little bits and odds and pieces what we’d accumulated.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Picked up here and there. When we got to the camp we’d got absolutely nothing. I’d got a shirt on, trousers, shoes and that was my lot.
DK: And everything else had been lost up the road.
LM: Everything we had to drop.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they had machine guns all lined up beside this sort of, more or less an old cart track we had to run up and some bright erb at the back was firing a rifle or a, I believe it was the officer with a, with a revolver and we never stopped. Nobody stopped to find out who it was. We just had to run and we actually thought not combined but individually I think ninety nine percent of us thought we would run into a hole. A pit. We did. I did. I thought we was going to be shot because they’d already done that. That had already happened to prisoners. They’d took them and shot them and we again we thought this is what was happening. No one said that to each other. Never said it to each other but afterwards when we got to camp people said, ‘Christ,’ he said, ‘Well, I began to think that’s what was happening.’
DK: Yeah.
LM: And people did but they never spread it because no way would there have been any escape because they’d got machine guns lined up each side of this old dirt track and when we got to the other end I mean that was just, we were just covered in dust. It was in August so it was the middle of the summer.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And there was a fella who used to sleep right next door to me. His name was [Mcilwain]. I’ll never forget him. Well, in, while we were in the camp there was a little Pole and he was watching the Americans at the game of baseball when it was, we played it with a softball. And he was stood around here like that and one of the lads had a whack at the ball and it threw out and it hit him in the teeth and knocked his teeth out. He was a little Pole. Quite a small lad. And when we got the other end of the camp I was with [McIlwain] and [McIlwain] got hit with a rifle butt. And when we got, when we eventually got to the camp this little Pole said, ‘Cor,’ he said, ‘I was knackered.’ The language you used to pick up there. ‘I was knackered,’ he said. ‘But when I saw [McIlwain] get hit with a rifle butt,’ he said, ‘He just went like that and carried on he said, ‘I could have run on for miles.’ So, I mean there was a lot of, there was a lot of —
DK: Humour.
LM: Fun.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I mean, it was a place where you could see the funny side of it but not when, it wasn’t all that funny but later on when you look back.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, we were at that camp and then we stopped there until February 1945 and then —
DK: How were you treated in the second camp once you got there?
LM: Not badly. Not badly. All our huts were off the ground there. They were better huts.
DK: Right.
LM: And you went up a corridor in the middle and your rooms were off each side. Two, four. Two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen. Sixteen in a hut.
DK: Right.
LM: Two there. Two here on each side of the door and they had a tortoise stove and David [Dewlis?] was on the bunk above me and I slept in the bottom one and the lad on the next bunk to me was a New Zealander.
DK: Yeah.
LM: A lovely lad. Long Tom we called him. He was Long Tom. He was about six foot three and he used to sing the Maori’s farewell and a little tear would run down his cheek. Oh yeah. He decided that, he didn’t make a habit of singing it but every now he would sing that little old song. I know the words to that right off. Oh yeah.
DK: I’m quite conscious we’ve been talking for an hour. Do you want to take a break or something.?
LM: I don’t mind. Yes. Yeah. Lovely.
DK: Yeah. Shall we just stop there for a moment?
Other: Yeah. That’s fine.
DK: It’s just I’m rather conscious.
[recording paused]
LM: Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely.
DK: Ok. So I’ll put that back there again. So just to be — talking about the cold weather and the movements.
Other: Yeah.
DK: And prisoners. So just to recap then it’s, it’s February 1945 and you’re in the second —
LM: ’45. Yeah.
DK: And you’re in the second camp and they’re not treating you too badly. What’s happened then?
LM: January. February. They said that due to unforeseen circumstances, they didn’t say why, or why or not, or not we’d got to go. We’d got to move out of the camp and they were going to march us out of the camp. I think we were then what was there, there was somebody else interfering or something was happening and we had to move camp. That was up near Stettin we were and we could see vapour trails. While we were there vapour trails used to go up and we thought they were taking the weather. Apparently, what we were watching was the V-1s and V-2s take off.
DK: Right.
LM: Didn’t know that at the time but going back a little bit I remember a JU88 was fitted with jet engines before ours.
DK: Right.
LM: They had a jet engine fitted to a JU88. No. Yeah 88 not the 87. That was a Stuka.
DK: Right. Yeah.
LM: But the, the eighty eight, yeah. And we weren’t —
DK: You saw one of those fly by then did you?
LM: You could hear them.
DK: Hear them. Right. Yeah.
LM: And see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You could see them when they came over and you would think that sounds unusual for an aircraft engine and —
DK: Yeah.
LM: And they must have developed that before we did because that was the Germans who brought on the atomic bomb wasn’t it? For the Americans.
DK: Yes.
LM: Their scientists.
DK: Yeah. And the rockets to the moon.
LM: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Von Braun.
LM: Yes. Yeah. And no we were told that we had got to move and we said the treatment we’d had we were not going to go out of the camp. Silly thing to say but there we are. We are not going to move. We are going to stay where we are because we got treated so badly to go to that camp we said we wouldn’t go out of this one and the major, he was an old Prussian. When you say Prussian they were the old Germans weren’t they?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: And I reckon he was quite an oldish fella. Upright. Real slim, upright. Lovely he was. And he said he would come with us so there would be no ill treatment at all. And we didn’t get ill treated at all. We said we’d come out but the number of people within one or two days had to fall out. Blisters on their feet, had diarrhoea or something like that and my pilot David Josephs, that’s what made me think he was a bit of a politician’s son, he was, David was taken off after a second, I think it was two days he walked with us. After then they had to take him off in the little bandwagon. Whether he went to hospital I don’t know. I never knew. Even when we came home I never knew what had happened to him.
DK: No.
LM: And I kept in touch with him. Oh yeah. We kept in touch. And but at, he was, walked for an hour and we’d have a rest but when you get up again your feet began to tell on you. But that didn’t make no difference to me I’d been so used to talking over rough ground and so forth that didn’t come hard.
DK: Right.
LM: But people used to say, ‘How did you get on with monotonous walking?’ I said, ‘Yeah. What you do, all you do was just look at the persons feet in front.’ And that was just, it was just a tag along behind each other.
DK: Did you know roughly how many people were in this column as you remember?
LM: Oh, I haven’t a [pause] The whole camp.
DK: So —
LM: And there was not just us.
DK: Right.
LM: There were lots of others as well.
DK: So it could be thousands or —
LM: Oh yes. Walking through Germany what they said one morning we got was if you get attacked which there was. I didn’t see any of it to be truthful but some of them were attacked by Typhoons flown by New Zealanders and the idea was half of you would dash. We used to walk through tracks usually. Never, if you went through a village that was occasionally and the funny thing when we went through a village we used to stand up, pull ourselves up and sing and march. And the Germans didn’t like that and the guards didn’t like it either. And then after you got through the village it was like this, sort of striding along but when you walked through a village you put your parts on and started singing. But there was some got shot up.
DK: Did the villagers react to that at all?
LM: They left, the would leave water out but we weren’t allowed to touch it.
DK: Right.
LM: Because there was so much change of water. I don’t think it would have affected me at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Because I’d even later on I even drank out of a blasted river and so I don’t but other people it upset very quickly.
DK: Yeah.
LM: People were suffering with diarrhoea and that sort of thing and anyway we started off and a lot fell out. A lot fell out with diarrhoea, bad feet and that sort of thing. And we would have what they called after eight days you’d have a rest.
DK: What happened to those who did fall out and couldn’t —
LM: Took them back to somewhere. Hospital or something like that to give them a bit of treatment I think.
DK: Right.
LM: I couldn’t say. I don’t know what happened to them.
DK: Ok.
LM: I think, well they got back because David he got back.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we used to write to each other just at Christmas time.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And —
DK: So how long were you on this march for? How many days roughly?
LM: February [pause] And I actually wrote a letter home. Air mail home to my mother on April the 29th. So we were walking from more or less I think somewhere in the middle of February.
DK: To the end of the war basically.
LM: Yeah. February. March.
DK: April.
LM: April. The end of April. But I had, we at the end of the march we had to during the march we could barter sometimes with the farmer. And I had a lovely Van Heusen shirt which had been sent to me by somebody so I swapped this shirt for a kilo of fat pork. Well, we had been walking across Germany with [unclear] and a biscuit perhaps a day. So you can tell what our stomachs were like. They weren’t very lined at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They weren’t lined at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I swapped that. I said to Tom and, two of us. Long Tom and Leftie and we’ll fry it down. We’ll cut it into like chips and we’ll fry it down because to eat it as raw meat you couldn’t do that so that’s what we thought we would do. We stuck it in an old klim tin.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Lit a little fire and that night we were in this barn and the old rats would run over you and we got lousy as well. Oh, crikey yeah. And they were, they were big lice as well and we went and curled up and went to sleep. Made a sleeping bag and I used to tuck that right under your head so that no rats or anything could get in with you. And they used to run over you but you used to sort of knock them off.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And squeak and go off ahead and that night we went and [laughs] in the barn and I heard Tom, Long Tom up he got, out he went. The next thing Leftie the other side of me he was gone. And do you know I feel sick. Sick as a [pause] I feel. I’m not being sick I’m not going to. I didn’t buy that stuff to be sick. No way. And I wouldn’t go out. I laid there and I would not be sick. And I thought I’ll imagine I’m drinking a cup of cocoa and I was drinking this cup of cocoa and in the bottom of it was these chips. So it was, it was so awful that had [pause] we had lost all the lining off our stomachs. You passed blood. You would actually pass blood.
DK: So over these weeks then did you have the same German guards or were they changed?
LM: The Germans. Oh, you never knew who was with you.
DK: Right.
LM: Yeah. Some, they didn’t walk all the way with us —
DK: I was going to say —
LM: We would have different guards.
DK: You wouldn’t have different guards all the time then.
LM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
LM: They were all old. Usually the old ones.
DK: Right.
LM: The old Luftwaffe as well.
DK: Right.
LM: And we walked. There was, I think there was something like, yeah, something about four hundred miles we’d done or something similar to that and then they were going to take us back towards the Russians. We’d just come over the River Elbe and I said to my two mates, Long Tom and Leftie, I said, ‘I’m not going back over that blasted river.’ They said, ‘Well, you know, I don’t fancy going back to the bloody Russians the other side.’ So we had said if we see a chance we’ll make a run for it. Well, we were going through this. We always walked through woods, lots of woods off the main track and so forth so we got a gap. ‘Ok, Tom.’ Off we, we ran off. Off we went. Mind you the guards I don’t think they were shooting at us. Never hit us anyway. They was a few shots going off but we carried on running and we came to a river. A little river. It was about as wide as this room and mind you this was time, that was in March time so a bit cold. So we thought if we cross the river, we were playing games I suppose, if we cross the river the dogs won’t be able to pick us up.
DK: Yeah.
LM: But the river was running quite, quite fast and there was little saplings been cut down beside the river so I picked one of these up and I gave it to Leftie and Leftie went across and held this stick you see and chucked one in the water, walked across sideway. So I went across and I held this stick for Tom to hold on to a branch and then come across this what we’d laid in the river. And there was a shot rang out and Tom lost his balance and he went backwards in the river. Got all his clothes on so he got out obviously and we made our way as we thought we had heard of [Saltau?] and that was where the Americans were.
DK: Right.
LM: We thought if we get to the Americans we’d be alright. Well, we got to the edge of a, it was a sort of a spinney we went through and then we came to the finish of the woods was that were open fields. So we stopped there and we decided we’d sort of camouflage ourselves. We’d put a bit of stick in. I had a, I had a German type Africa Corps hat which was a mistake I found out later but [pause] So we put this hat on and I’d got that and somebody knitted it somewhere along the line and we waited until it had got slightly dusk and then we decided we would come out of this little old wood and make our way as we thought towards Saltau. We just came out and we could hardly believe it. We turned left. I can see it even now. Turned, came out of this little wood. We turned left and walked along and we went, ‘Bloody hell.’ There was three blokes laid in the ditch. A little ditch. It wasn’t a ditch as such it was just a dry ditch. Say it that way.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Three Americans err three Australians. Three Australians laid in that ditch just been shot down and they had got escape equipment and everything. But they were also full of beans. Eggs and bacon. So just imagine us three weighing about seven stone and they had just, we’d just walked across Germany. Four or five hundred miles across there and they had just been shot down full of beans. And we walked at night and potato fields, it didn’t matter what was in the way we just walked according to the compass. And I remember particularly we came to a fence of barbed wire. A bit silly. We climbed over the fence of barbed wire. We had to walk across and all of a sudden we started to go in and in and in. Our feet began to get rather mud wet. They come up and I said to the others, I said, ‘Run. For Christ’s sake, run.’ And we ran and we ran through a bloody bog. We didn’t realise how silly we were and we came to another barbed wire, another fence and climbed over that. That was to take the animals out.
DK: Oh. Ok.
LM: That’s what we reckoned.
DK: Yeah.
LM: To keep the animals out of this.
DK: Bog. Yeah.
LM: This bog. We got the other end we took our shoes and socks off and wrang our socks out and they were full of this sort of mud. And anyway we carried on and we used to stop for about have a sort of an hour and then sat down and you would sweat, sweat, sweat when you were walking. Then you stop for five minutes. Ten minutes you’d freeze. Really we were so weak I suppose that, of course the Australians weren’t weak they weren’t weak were they?
DK: I was going to say they were —
LM: They were, oh they were fit as fiddles.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Oh yeah and anyway we, we dodged here, dodged there and carried on and eventually we came up and we heard people in the foreground as we were going in front of us. They were German troops. Walked right into them. So I reckon he was a middle of the range officer and of course they caught us and we had to go over and he looked at us and I reckon he thought what a shower and he gave us some little tablets or sweet or whatever you’d like to call them. They were about an inch long and about a half inch wide and like the old throat lozenge.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Remember the throat one?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: Well, these were white. I reckon they were vitamin tablets. He handed them out to us and he got the corporal to walk back with us to a little village called Bispingen. And we came back to this little village and that’s where he left us. In a hotel.
DK: Right.
LM: We were put up in this hotel and that night we went out. All six of us went out. We was talking to the German people which was no man’s land then you see.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we were saying to the woman there, one woman Tom was talking to, he could speak fairly good German and about Saltau, she said, ‘oh,’ this is the honest truth this is, ‘Don’t go. Don’t go to Saltau. The Americans are there,’ she said, ‘They shoot anything that moves.’
DK: Yeah. They still do.
LM: That was a yarn but she said that’s what the Germans said.
DK: Yeah.
LM: She said, ‘Don’t. I wouldn’t go to Saltau.’ So we, we stayed there. Lovely hotel. We weren’t allowed to go upstairs.
DK: So —
LM: We had to sleep downstairs.
DK: So you were put up in a hotel by the Germans.
LM: Yeah. Yeah. They left us there. They didn’t want us. We were, we were a menace.
DK: Do you think the Germans at this point knew the war was lost and it just wasn’t worth —
LM: Yes. Yes, because another time they might have shot us mightn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
LM: And anyway, we were in no man’s land so they were retreating quite badly. And anyway, one particular day the sun was shining lovely. We set outside this hotel enjoying ourselves and there was a German lorry came around from the little village to where the centre of the village was. Another hotel further up the road. Came around the corner. All of a sudden it stopped and out they got and made a dive for it. Couldn’t make much out of it you see. And then I heard this plane and then looked up. There was one Spitfire. One Spitfire just going along. Of course, we, we were from, they knew us.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I mean they weren’t going to shoot us were they? They knew. There was us sitting on the front of this blasted hotel, ‘Oh yay.’ I thought you, daft sods weren’t we? A Spitfire up there never knew who we, I said to Tom, I said, ‘He could have turned around and shot us, Tom. Couldn’t they?’ But no. They were our friends weren’t they? You could see the funny side of it. Ignorant weren’t we? Plain ignorant.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Didn’t care. Anyway, we sat [laughs] they gave us a bowl of soup each day. They made a bowl of soup and there was pork cut into little old squares but they weren’t, they weren’t really all that nourishing. Weren’t all that good. Anyway, we were very pleased with it. And then a young lad came down to us. He said, ‘A Panzer. Panzer. A British Panzer.’ So lovely. Away we go. We ran up and around the corner and thought double double. There was a bloke on a half track or one of these little Bren carriers it was.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: We had to double up to them. Didn’t know who we were you see because I’d got this blasted African Corps hat on and so, anyway we had to run up to them and he stood there and when he realised who we were and then of course they gave us cigarettes and so forth. But they then put us in the hotel right at the top of the street where we ran to when they was coming in to the village. So the next morning I wrote a letter. One of the Army lads gave me an air mail to write home and that was how I remember the 29th of April when I first wrote home to my mother to say that I was ok. And the next morning they said, ‘Right. The truck will, you get in the truck it will stop twice. The second time it stops you get out and you will go back to the [echelon].’ That’s the depot isn’t it.’
DK: Yeah.
LM: So Long Tom, Leftie and myself. We got in one truck and the three Aussies got in another. So we’re, off we go. Off we go. Funny. Eventually we stopped. The Army lads said, ‘What are you doing here?’ Well, we said, ‘You’ve got to stop twice and we’re going back to the [echelon].’ He said, ‘We weren’t stopping,’ he said, ‘You should have been in the other truck.’ So there’s us three.
DK: Oh no.
LM: We’re on patrol with the blasted Army. They gave me a rifle and put me on a half-track and I thought they said the war was over for us. It doesn’t look much like it. We’re going along the road and they’re firing at bloody copse over the other side. A little old copse there.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I suppose Germans are in. They was firing. These people was firing at something. The lads up the front. So here we carried on. We went, we had a stop at this little village and we weren’t very nice. The Army weren’t very nice.
DK: Do you want me to stop?
LM: Can you turn —? Yeah.
[recording paused]
LM: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Yes.
DK: Right. So I’ve got it switched back on again. So there we go. We’ll move that there. So you’re now with the British Army.
LM: Yeah.
DK: What’s happened next then?
LM: Well, while we were with them on their, on patrol we got an old vehicle. A little old sort of a Austin 7.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
LM: In one of these villages and Tom said he could drive you see and we got this thing started. It started up and we were driving around the village in this little motor and we called and went in the shop. It was a baker’s shop. They sold everything I suppose not just bread, they had cakes and everything in there and they couldn’t wait to give us stuff. We weren’t in uniform as such. I mean not really. We were, we were looked like bedraggled bloody gypsies really. I mean just imagine what we were like. Thin as rakes.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And we went in a shop and the German women said, ‘Your bread.’ And the bread we had, the old black bread that weren’t nice at all. That had got a thick layer of Greece on the bottom. But when we, they gave us a loaf of brown bread that was like cake. It was just like cake to eat. Their brown bread. Ordinary brown bread after eating black bread and but anyway we, eventually we got back. They dropped us off and two days we were there on patrol and then they took us back. We got back to the [echelon] and had to go through a de-louser.
DK: Yeah.
LM: DDT. Take all your clothes off. Shave because that’s where the lice grow on and when I came for a medical well first of all they were spraying DDT out of a hose from a container with no masks on. I mean that stuff now. That hangs in people’s bodies. You can’t get rid of it can you?
DK: Yeah. It’s banned, isn’t it?
LM: DDT.
DK: Yeah. It’s banned.
LM: And they were just spraying this all over you, under your arms, everywhere. And I wonder how many people got affected with that. The Army lads were doing it.
DK: It’s carcinogenic. It can cause cancers.
LM: They did all the spraying. Awful stuff.
DK: So its banned now.
LM: But anyway, we had to shave yourself and and the doctor said to me, he said, ‘Ahh,’ he said, ‘Impetigo.’ I said, ‘I don’t think so sir.’ He said, ‘Yes, that’s what I —’ I said, ‘ I don’t think so.’ I said, ‘It’s lice.’ I said, ‘That’s where I’ve scratched myself.’ ‘No. No. No. No.’ So he gave me one of those blue bottles. Years ago you used to get these bottles of blue weren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
LM: From your medical —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Perhaps you don’t remember. You’re not old enough to know that. They were poisonous stuff sort of business. And you’d get them an old blue bottle about that tall. I never used it. I come home and just washed myself. It went. It wasn’t impetigo at all. It looked like it I suppose because —
DK: Scratching.
LM: And you could, the lice was nearly as big as my little nail. They were huge. Just think of them crawling over yourself.
Other: Oh, I feel sick now.
LM: We never had any in the camp though. It weren’t ‘til we came out on the march until we got lousy. There was no lice in the camp whatsoever.
DK: So how did you get back to the UK then?
LM: I came back. We were taken to [Machelen] Airfield.
DK: Right.
LM: Picked up by, they kitted us out with Army clothes then.
DK: Right.
LM: Took all our old, took our old rubbish away and gave us a new Army uniform sort of business and I was picked up on a, I can’t tell you where, I’ve no idea where we actually got to. The airfield we flew from in a Dakota.
DK: Right.
LM: And I sat in this Dakota and there was a lad came up in the, on the aircraft. He said, ‘Have you flown before?’ I looked. I said, ‘Yes. Yeah. Yeah.’ He said, ‘Oh that’s alright,’ he said, ‘We just wondered if you had never flown before.’ I never said nothing. I thought no. He don’t know any different does he like.
DK: No. I suppose some of the Army POWs may not have flown because they would have been shipped out of there.
LM: That’s right.
DK: Captured. And that was the first time they flew.
Other: Yeah.
LM: Of course, there were lots of them. I mean we had lads we called them the Wizards of Oz. There was three of them. I don’t know how they came in our hut but I reckon they swapped over with some RAF lads.
DK: Right.
LM: That’s how we always reckoned they were, they kept themselves to themselves but we reckoned, we used to call them the Wizards of Oz. there was three of them. They never give any, never said nothing you know didn’t talk much. They were Army boys really and they swapped I reckon.
Other: Oh.
LM: With three RAF lads.
DK: So did, do you think you were flown back from somewhere in Germany?
LM: Yes. Yeah.
DK: So you were in Germany.
LM: Yes
DK: So can you remember where you arrived back in the UK?
LM: Yes. Brize. Not Brize Norton. Cosford.
DK: Cosford. Right. Ok.
LM: Cosford. Yeah. Came back to Cosford. I think it was Cosford we came back. If it weren’t Cosford we landed at that’s where we got rekitted.
DK: Right.
LM: At Cosford. What was the other one where they brought all the, repatriated all these prisoners a little while ago?
DK: Oh Lyneham.
LM: No. No. No. Down that same place.
DK: There’s Brize Norton.
LM: Brize Norton.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Not Brize Norton. Was it Brize Norton?
DK: Yeah. There’s Lyneham and then Brize Norton and —
LM: Lyneham was another one.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: I think it was Cosford I came back to.
DK: Right. Ok.
LM: And they sent us on leave for six weeks. All they gave me was four for some reason. They only gave me a pass for four weeks. I didn’t mind. I didn’t, I weren’t bothered all that much.
DK: Was there any sort of debriefing about your time as a POW? Did they ask you any questions?
LM: Yes. When we came home they, we had to go and stand in front of a board.
DK: Right.
LM: And they did, just weren’t all that interested I don’t think. I don’t think they didn’t seem to worry much. I mean, we, I don’t think they were enquiring about names or anything like that. They just, well, to be honest I don’t think they didn’t give a shite about us.
DK: No.
LM: They couldn’t wait to get us home and get us on leave it seemed to me and of course I don’t think they wanted us in the RAF all that long or whether they did or not I don’t know. We were probably getting paid too much and anyway when we came home you had the chance to remuster. I volunteered. Like a bit of a silly bugger I volunteered to go out to Japan.
LM: Right.
That’s why. I said I’d fly, I said I’d love to go and fly out to Japan now and fight out there. I thought what a bloody a dickhead wasn’t I?
Other: You didn’t know did you?
LM: What. No, he said, ‘No. We wouldn’t let you to do that again.’ They said no. Wouldn’t be allowed to do that. And anyway, I took a course on, back to Morse Code.
DK: Right.
LM: I was going to do that sort of thing and I thought oh no. This isn’t for me and actually I couldn’t concentrate at all. I couldn’t concentrate. My concentration was just gone so I remustered then to a teleprinting course and we used to send, write letters home. How quickly you can pick up a typewriter.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And you had an old metronome on the desk in front of you.
DK: Yeah.
LM: You had your big blackboard. You know I expect. And no numbers or letters on the keyboard. You had to feel them. Always work from the middle bar. And, ‘Oh, shit I’ll never do this.’ But how quickly —
Other: Where is your typewriter?
LM: Huh?
Other: What happened to your typewriter, grandad?
LM: Don’t mention about my typewriter what I bought and my [pause] they gave my typewriter away.
DK: Shall we turn this off again? [laughs]
LM: They couldn’t wait. I paid forty five pounds. No. sorry. Not quite that. I thought I’ll go upstairs the other night. I thought I’ll go up. I’ll do a bit of, I’ll get my old typewriter out of the spare room because my right hand isn’t very good now. I had a bit of a stroke but I had that. That was like what they called deprivisation.
DK: Right.
LM: And I get a little pension for that. But I was ages before I got it. Nobody came. I went in A1 obviously. I came out a down B2. Never said nothing about giving me a pension though. Not a thing. Couldn’t give a damn.
DK: Well presumably, well you clearly weren’t in the best of health when you came back.
LM: No. No.
DK: But was there any medical care that you received or —
LM: No. No. I went. No. No one bothered.
DK: No.
LM: No. No. No. If you went sick you went sick. If you didn’t you didn’t. Simple as that and I just —
Other: [unclear] ever since.
LM: I took the, then I thought this seemed good to me I said what I’ll do because they didn’t mind you remustering. They knew what state we were in I suppose.
DK: Yeah.
LM: For we weren’t in the best of mental state I don’t think then. We’d got so lax and not having to do anything. Sort of just walk around a bloody compound and I mean I weren’t too bad I was only thirteen months but some of them four or five years and I took a driver’s test and I came out the, out in Blackpool and the School of Motoring. The initials —
DK: Oh, the British School of Motoring [[ yeah.
LM: Up near Blackpool. Weeton.
DK: Right.
LM: In Blackpool. And the corporal said, another lad in the back, they were Austin 7, 10s like, he said. Went out the back around these you could see the hills in front of you in the distance, sort of the wasteland at the back of Blackpool. We got away to the front, still a bit of waste ground. He said, ‘Now, I want you to get to the top of that hill in top gear.’ And there was a gateway down there. I put my foot right down and went up that hill like a bomb. Yeah. No trouble. We got pulled up and loaded on and the boy in the back he said, ‘You scared the life out of me.’ I said, ‘Why?’ he said, ‘Well you nearly hit that gate post.’ I said ‘[unclear] Through there. I said, ‘He said, the corporal said to me he wanted me to get to the top of the hill in top gear.’ He wanted me to stall it you see, didn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
LM: Wanted me to start off on a hill but I didn’t. I foot rode up this blasted hill.
DK: So, what year did you actually leave the RAF then?
LM: I had two ranks.
DK: Right.
LM: Warrant officer air gunner and an AC2 driver.
DK: So you left as an AC2.
LM: Yes [laughs] Yes, I don’t, but I passed. I could drive anything when I came out.
DK: And what year was that that you came out then?
LM: 1946.
DK: Right.
LM: Came out in ’46 and started work in, my leave was up on the 6th of September 1946 and I started work on the 6th. On a Tuesday.
DK: Doing what? What was your career after that then? What did you do?
LM: Well, I thought I really loved to work on the land.
DK: Machelen Right.
LM: I loved the horses.
DK: So did you?
LM: Especially.
DK: Did you go back to —
LM: No. There wasn’t no money in it then was there?
DK: Right.
LM: So, Vic Bale, how I knew, I went to school with him he ran foremen men at Fiddlers Garages at Stowmarket.
DK: Right.
LM: He said to me, he said, ‘Lou,’ he said, ‘Are you —.’ Oh before then I, yeah that’s right. Yes. Yes. He said, ‘Lou, are you looking for a job?’ I said, ‘No. Not really, Vic.’ I said, ‘Not for a while. Just see my leave out and I’ll have a look around,’ I said, ‘There’s plenty of place in Stowmarket.’ He said, ‘Well, my dad you see has just gone as a foreman down at the old chemical works.’ He said, ‘There’s a firm, a Swedish firm going to make boards, building boards from straw.’ So I thought well I knew old Harry, his dad. I knew him well. So I went down. ‘Yes, boy.’ He said, ‘Yes, boy. You can start tomorrow if you like.’ I said, ‘Lovely Harry. I’ll start. Make it Tuesday.’ I said, ‘That’s the end of my leave.’ So I went and that’s where I started and I was the first one to start there. Then there was another lad. He was a Dunkirk lad.
DK: Right.
LM: Frank [Wasp]. He joined the next day. And then another lad he was in the Army he was a PT instructor. He joined on the Friday. So that we three started off at [unclear]
DK: [unclear]
LM: And the bloke who came to show us how to run [unclear] hadn’t a bloody clue. He hadn’t a clue. Not any idea.
DK: So just stepping back a bit have you stayed in touch with any of the, either your crew at the time or those that you escaped with?
LM: Well. No. Never. I’d have loved to. This was what I was saying earlier on. We never kept, the only one, now I had a letter come from some while ago now from the flight engineer.
DK: Right.
LM: When we were shot down. Did I know, he’d got my address from David Joseph’s wife —
DK: Right.
LM: Because David used to write to me. Well, when I say write it was a postcard at Christmas and all we wrote on it, “How are you? Ok? Having a nice time? Cheerio.” And that’s all that was said.
DK: So you stayed in touch with your pilot for a few years.
LM: Only on a —
DK: On a card.
LM: His mother used to write to my mother.
DK: Right.
LM: During the war. During that war and David he, what made me think he was a Joseph, the old Keith Josephs offspring they lived in Shakespeare Country.
DK: Right. Yeah. They must be related.
LM: Then I got —
DK: Yeah.
LM: Then I got a card come from him. “We’ve changed our address. I’ve now bought a farm at Bourton on the Water.” So we were on, me and the wife were on holiday. We called at Bourton on the Water. There’s a river runs through the street there isn’t there?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
LM: A lovely place.
Other: Bourton on the Water.
LM: And I went into a Post Office. I said to the lady I said, Mock Hill, Pockhill Farm it was called. I went into the Post Office. I said, ‘Hello dear.’ I said, ‘You wouldn’t know the whereabouts of a David Josephs who live in Pockhill Farm would you?’ She said, ‘Yeah. They’re just up the road there on the right hand side.’ But he had died then. He’d had a brain haemorrhage.
DK: So you never met him again.
LM: I never met him. No.
DK: I’m rather conscious of time. I’ve just got one final question.
LM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And it’s really about how after all these years you feel about and you look back on your time in the RAF and a POW. How do you feel about that now? Is it something —
LM: I sometimes wish I’d have taken, what I ought to have, I sometimes think why didn’t I get a reserved job on the land? I could have been I don’t know. I wouldn’t have been I don’t know. I wouldn’t have been in a position I finished up with now at anyrate.
DK: Yeah.
LM: I had a good number when I, when I retired. A production manager at [unclear] when I retired so I wouldn’t, I was well looked after. The old governor I think sometimes that was a good thing that I went through that because otherwise I think I would have been on the farm until the day I died.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Or the time I retired. But I didn’t and —
DK: So in a strange way it was —
LM: It altered my life altogether because, yes.
DK: Some good came out of it.
LM: Because I suppose in a way I wouldn’t have gone, well a little example. When I was at school we had one day out in a year. Sunday school.
DK: Yeah.
LM: Had to go to Sunday school every Sunday. Stowupland and Creeting St Peter. I used to live at Creeting St Peter and that we used, they’d come from Stowup and pick us up at Creeting St Peter. Now, I’ve never been out of the village because we used to get to Jacks Green, that’s just nearly into Needham and somebody would ask, ‘Can you see the sea yet?’ That’s how naïve we were. Hadn’t been out of the village. When I went to London that was the first time I’d ever been in London in my life.
DK: Yeah.
LM: And I got on the Underground and it didn’t bother me at all.
DK: Yeah.
LM: No, I just asked a porter. I wasn’t afraid to ask and mostly the black ones were ever so helpful. Oh yeah.
DK: Better turn this off quick.
LM: Well, they were and in those days —
DK: Yeah. Yeah. No.
LM: I’m sorry Sally but —
Other: No, that’s fine, grandad.
LM: I didn’t say that.
DK: It was actually because we had full employment then that there weren’t enough people to work on the Underground so recruitment was actually done in the West Indies to get people.
LM: Oh right.
DK: To come over and work on the Underground and London Transport. Ok. Well, at that point we’d better stop. Well thanks very much for that.
LM: Yes.
DK: I’m turning this off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Louis Makens
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMakensL170117, PMakensL1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Louis Makens worked as a farm worker before the war but volunteered for aircrew. He discusses his training on Wellingtons and operations flying Stirlings with 196 Squadron including a crash landing, and glider towing. His Halifax was shot down 18/19 March 1944 on the way to Frankfurt. It was his seventh operation, but his first as a mid under gunner with 76 Squadron from RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor. He became a prisoner of war and discusses that as an extra gunner with a new crew, he only got to know his pilot David Joseph during captivity. He describes his capture and treatment and the conditions at Stalag Luft 6, the contents of Red Cross parcels, and the prisoners' attitude to the guards. He describes the conditions on the long march through Germany away from the advancing Russians. Eventually he found the advancing Allied army. After the war, he was remustered as a driver and was demobbed in 1946. He found employment with Stramit manufacturing strawboard building material.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Lithuania
Poland
England--Yorkshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Lithuania--Šilutė
Poland--Świnoujście
Poland--Tychowo
Lithuania--Klaipėda
Temporal Coverage
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1944-03-18
1945-02
1945-06-19
1946-09-06
Format
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01:42:22 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
196 Squadron
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
bombing
evading
Fw 190
Halifax
Initial Training Wing
Lysander
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Sealand
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Stradishall
RAF Witchford
shot down
Stalag Luft 4
Stalag Luft 6
Stirling
strafing
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/PMercerH1701.1.jpg
ca1e16ce2e7f535857111b45957c7c12
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/AMercerH170519.2.mp3
550b969b4cd74761e6a94a8e44b23fde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mercer, Harold
H Mercer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Harold Mercer (1922 - 2020). He served as a driver before remustering as an air gunner. He flew operations as an air gunner with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mercer, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harold Mercer at his home on the 19th of May 2017. Get going. Alright, I’ll just make sure that’s working. So, just start, if I could just ask you, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HM: I was working for North Shields corporated society as a milk man, driving horse and cart round the streets, delivering milk
DK: So, what years would that be?
HM: That was 1942
DK: 1942. So, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was that your decision or?
HM: Well, it was, yes, it was my decision, I had volunteered at the beginning of the year 1942, and I have gone up to Edinburgh for an interview, I wanted to be in aircrew then but over to you I wasn’t contemplated for at the time and they sent me on the reserve list so I was called up in April 1942
DK: 1942, yeah
HM: On call up, I suppose you want me to continue,
DK: Yes, please, yeah
HM: On call up, I was posted to Weston-super-Mare for what was generally called square-bashing, so I did two months in Weston-super-Mare, while I was there, I did the usual things, marching up and down the promenade, learning how to the march, how to do the drills and everything
DK: How did you feel about all that, was that something you liked or?
HM: To be quite honest, I quite enjoyed it for one reason, I had a little corporal [unclear] who was determined to be a Sir, so I had to call him sir anyway, but being sort of raw recruits and not used to Air Force or Army life or anything really like that, we just generally called him Sir, behind his back I think he was called other things, but that was the Air Force lads, but we got on very well together, there was, the squadron was about thirty, I would imagine? I’ve got a photograph there actually, about thirty of us in a squad and while I was there, I did the usual square-bashing and the odd sentry duty and only one wood march I ever did anyway, the reason for that was I was a musician and I played the euphonium in a brass band, so once the corporal got to know that, he said, oh, I got a job for you, I went to see the sergeant in charge of the band at the time and he said, welcome, he says, it’s just what we need, so I joined the band. Doing that meant that we didn’t do so many parades or anything other than practice in the Weston-super-Mare pavilion there, so we did a lot of practice and of course the drill sergeant said, you know, he was quite upset because we were missing a lot of parades but on the other hand, we had to give concerts every night in the pavilion, so we did a lot of rehearsals during the day so we couldn’t be drilling and rehearsing as musicians, the musicians apparently had the first choice of our time, so I spent two months [unclear] at Weston-super-Mare and we were billeting in private houses in those days, about three to, three to a room, you know, use your little beds that you have, but I quite enjoyed the time there and then when it came to leaving super-Mare, I was destined to be a [unclear], transport driver, so I eventually arrived up, lasted up in the Blackpool School of Motoring, learning all about the cars and lorries, buses, the whole works and
DK: Had you actually driven before then
HM. Yes, I
DK: Or did they teach you to drive?
HM: I happened, actually I happened to be a driver because my brother had a car
DK: Right
HM: And he taught me to drive and I’ve driven ever since I was seventeen. But anyway, I still had to go through the usual school, learning about the combustion engines, and touring around Blackpool area, learning how to drive these cars, busses, lorries, whatever the corporal wanted that day
DK: So you were taught not only how to drive these vehicles, also how to maintain them, and the engines, and
HM: Yeah, we had to be, I rather was, were mechanics, we had to learn all about the combustion engine and be able to trace faults on the car, on the motor, on the whatever, the transport was the intention, so we had to learn all about that, I think that, I’m not sure if [unclear] but, yes, we had to learn both sides, both driving and positive the engine world, you know, so, I say I was there about two months, as actually there was the British School of Motoring that we were under and I had a lady instructor and she says, oh, you are fine enough, no problem with you, but when it came to passing the test, I couldn’t pass the test first time, you know, and I said to this lady, I’ll never pass the test because I’m far too nervous when it comes to anybody sitting beside me, but I know I can drive perfectly and I won’t hurt anybody, so anyway, after the second test, this lady instructor told the examiner exactly what I was done, he says, this airman is perfectly capable of driving anything you care to put on any he’ll drive properly, so the examiner took notice of this, so I passed.
DK: Right
HM: And that was the end of my time in Blackpool, we had off duty time so we passed most of our time at the YM I think, at the YMCA, playing billiards or whatever, snooker, well, you know anything that was coming up. One thing I do remember, going back to Weston-super-Mare, is every Sunday the Air Force had to attend morning service at the church and of course the job of the band was to lead them to the church so they led us to the church, we led them to the church, but the church wouldn’t let us in with our instruments so the corporal says, come back in an hour’s time, I want you here back in an hour’s time, so what we did, popped down the end of the road, went in a café, had a cup of tea so we missed the church service, so that was, I suppose, that’s one of the advantages of being in the brass, being a musician and then we just marched them back to the quarters again and dismissed for the day, had a day off, you know, that was just a little thing [unclear]
DK: Have you been in the band then?
HM: It was, yeah, if you were a musician, it was pretty good because you, various times you were called away to do a concert for somebody and we did, we did concerts, I would say every night, somewhere in the area, so,
DK: Was it something that you stuck to afterwards? Is it something that you’ve done all your life? Continued to play?
HM: Oh yes, I’d been a musician from eight years old I was taught, all my family are salvationers and I was naturally, we were all brought up to be salvationists of as I moved up in airs I was transferred from a junior band to the senior band and then from there I went to the Air Force, so I had a good solid grounding for playing in the band
DK: So just going back to when you passed your test for the motor transport
HM: Yeah
DK: What could you drive after passing that test? Was it the big trucks or?
HM: Yes, thirty hundred weight trucks
DK: You could drive thirty hundred weight trucks
HM: Yeah
DK: And coaches or anything like that?
HM: Yes, we had coaches as well, you had to be able to drive practically anything really, [unclear], yes, you had to be able to drive any vehicle that was to hand and what job was wanted to be done, so it was very interesting and [unclear] if I would say those two months I had
DK: So after those two months, were you posted to a squadron then or to an airfield?
HM: No, from there I went to Bridgnorth for general training, that was like building all of the Air Force discipline and duties and ranks and you know, the whole works of the Air Force you had to go through the, through a whole book as well as doing various drills, nothing like Weston-super-Mare, just ordinary drills, learning how to behave in public, behave at a table, sort of, was like officer training, you had to be able to do, holding a knife and fork and all the various equipment, depending what meal you were at, so it started from breakfast right away through to being at a dinner, black tie and everything sort of thing
DK: And how did you find all of that, was it interesting or?
HM: Well, it was very, I think, I mean, I wasn’t used to that sort of life, for the low station time was hard before that so I was used to very hard life, bringing up my mother had to go to work at four o’clock in the morning, to make enough money to feed us, perhaps people these days don’t understand what the Twenties and Thirties were like, you see, I’m going back a long way and then of course I was brought up by very disciplined parents, very loving but you did nothing on a Sunday except having your food, you couldn’t read anything, you couldn’t buy anything, you know, days were hard in those, today people haven’t got any idea what those days were like, the Thirties especially were, men were short of money, in fact it was the war that made a big change, a very big change in life, in my life anyway, I got sort of out into the world, I’d never been away from home, till I joined the Air Force, you know, I travelled up to Edinburgh, well, Edinburgh as far as I was concerned was Australia, could’ve been, because of us [unclear] altogether, I was born up in North Shields and I lived there, never went out at all, you know people cannot believe, these days they accept travelling all over the world,
DK: It’s normal, isn’t it, all just popping up all over Europe
HM: Oh, I’m gonna have a holiday, oh, where are we going this year? Oh, we’re going to Spain, we’re going all over, well, at my time you were lucky if you got as far as your own town really, that was as far as you got, anyway, back to Blackpool, and had a load of work [unclear] there, we’re billeted again in private houses, about, usually about three in a room depending from the size of the building and off duty we were going to [unclear] and just to, you know, spare time and of course we went to the Tower Ballroom I’ll come to that part later on but we went to the Tower Ballroom but we couldn’t dance just for the music and get together with the boys, get a little bit chatty, I thoroughly enjoyed learning all about motors and that came in handy in life later on as I advanced over the Air Force actually so from actually I think it was about two months approximately I haven’t got the exact date, well, I have the exact date somewhere, but I would say about two months and then we were posted again now I went to Bridgnorth which I was telling I was saying learning all about the Air Force discipline and ranks and how to behave in public and how to dine out and all this sort of thing as well as, pigeon, clay pigeon shooting,
DK: Oh right.
HM: We did a bit of clay pigeon shooting at Bridgnorth so there again, I think was, I think we were there three months, were quite a long time training at Bridgnorth, from Bridgnorth I was posted to Kidbrooke in London and a balloon barrage squadron where I was
DK: Whereabouts in London, sorry? Kilbourn?
HM: It was Kidbrooke
DK: Kidbrooke, right, Kidbrooke.
HM: Kidbrooke, 901 Squadron
DK: Right
HM: It was Kidbrooke, I was posted there as qualified motor driver and from Kidbrooke, Kidbrooke was the headquarters of the London Balloon Command
DK: Right, ok.
HM: And I was posted to Plumstead, which was a satellite of that squadron and from that site we supplied
DK: So the balloons, this is the barrage balloons,
HM: The big barrage balloons
DK: Yeah, right.
HM: The barrage balloons, with oxygen, you know, hydrogen, and from Plumstead we supplied the balloon sites with food every day and with any equipment we were transported over to they were only on WAAF sites, mostly WAAF sites, around my area anyway, I think I had three sites to go to every day, keep them topped up and most of the sites were WAAF, under the WAAF command, so I was there quite a long time then, while I was there off-duty times, I was stationed at the headquarters at Plumstead, when we were off-duty we used to pop out to Eltham Palace dancing, we couldn’t dance, I couldn’t dance, that’s for sure, we weren’t allowed to do things like that, anyway, funnily enough, we happened to have a corporal instructor, he said, I can dance in Civvy Street, I’ve danced in Civvy Street, I teach dancing, so we said, well, come on, you’ll have to show us what to do, you know, to go to the girls, when were nights off, so he taught us all about dancing,
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HM: You can imagine, twenty airmen in a barrack room learning how to dance, was a bit of a laugh, but we learned the basics anyway, and then when we went out with the WAAFs, we’d get the tram out to Eltham and go to Eltham Palace to dance and when we were dancing, well, you could call it dancing [laughs], because the WAAFs, you know, and the locals would pick the WAAFs up, and I didn’t, I couldn’t get away with dancing, but never mind, the WAAFs used to come up, he said, Harry, if I don’t like the man I am dancing with, we just buzz him off, cause in those days we had what we called the excuse me dances, the chap and told him he had to move on, so that was my job when I went to the dances with the girls, they was coming on and you know, the girls winked as they went past so I would just get up and tap them on the shoulder away would go and so I had a good job dancing with the WAAFs, I went round once stopped and sat and it would happen again, you know, but it was like entertainment as far as we were concerned, and it got you again from the hard fact that there was the war [unclear] all the time I mean, many a time would have an air raid but would have shut down and such, you know [unclear] we could get but we got plenty of time off there, the only thing that they didn’t have was any place where we could get a shower or a bath or whatever you needed, so we had tickets to go into Woolwich and took the baths in Woolwich, we’d go and have a bath there and we’re taken in and then from there we would go to the pictures and put the night in, so that’s how we did a lot of entertainment down in London apart from the air raid traffic [unclear]. Mind you, the air raids, the weather on London and [unclear] was very foggy, smog
DK: Smog
HM: Absolutely thick, you could hardly see your hand in front of you, and in fact one day I was driving a just this light weight van and I got lost, I couldn’t see where I was going, I ended up on a greens somewhere and had to go in the van, just walk where I though the edge might be, I found the edge and then sort of well [unclear] somewhere I know but I no idea
DK: But the headlights were covered up as well, weren’t they?
HM: The headlights were, yeah, the headlights, you might as well not have them on, because they were shaded with little slots in the front and the light they gave off was minimal, no good enough, and you had, it was all in your head, you knew the route, so
DK: I imagine there must have been a few accidents
HM: Oh, there was a few accidents, but you couldn’t avoid it because you couldn’t see where you were going, cause so thick, mind you, we never moved any heavy equipment through the night
DK: Right
HM: Such as the hydrogen bottles, you know, they had, what you called, Scammells, American things, huge motors, but the length of the [unclear] really, and you had all your bottles on the back and then a trailer behind that, so, you know, you got a good length
DK: Did you drive any of those, the Scammells?
HM: I drove the Scammells, excuse me
DK: I’ll just pause that.
HM: So
DK: So, you actually drove the Scammells, then, did you?
HM: I drove, yeah, I drove the Scammells and with the trailer to the WAAF site
DK: And what would be your loads then, what normally were your loads then that you were carrying?
HM: Well, that I remember, that’d probably be about, about fifteen to twenty hydrogen bottles on the Scammell itself, with the same number on the trailer, and you took those to the site, drop them off as you are going round, I can’t exactly remember how many we dropped off at the time, anyway we would obviously drop them off for the [unclear] and pick up others to take back
DK: The empty ones you’d take back
HM: The empty ones we’d take back and then they would be collected by the foreman who provided them in the first place
DK: And refilled
HM: Refilled and then we would do that every day, really, that was something that we did every day and besides the odd little jobs around the site and we had one motorcyclist at place, like a sort of dispatch, dispatch right I would say, and of course there was
DK: So, did he escort you sometimes then?
HM: Yes, he would try and sort of lead the way but you know, you had to use a lot of your own instinct as well, you know, to keep on top of things, we had one or two WAAF drivers, not so many, had one or two of them, it was mostly men at that time,
DK: And were the women driving the big trucks as well?
HM: They never drove the big trucks, no, that was left to the men, the big trucks and busses, that was for the men there, so anyway I finished my time in Bridgnorth, at Plumstead, I went to Bridgnorth, I told you about Bridgnorth, and from Bridgnorth I was posted to Blackpool
DK: Right, yeah.
HM: I went to Blackpool, and I was only there about a fortnight and I was moved up to Northern Ireland, from there I went to Northern Ireland, to Eglinton
DK: Eglinton
HM: In Northern Ireland, well, actually the headquarters, I was at the headquarters first, actually to be honest, I worked from headquarters all the time, which was 5019 Squadron
DK: 5019
HM: 5019
DK: Alright
HM: Funnily enough, I can’t find it in the books anywhere, but I’ve got a photograph with the, of the group, you know
DK: Oh, right, ok.
HM: With the, with the whole squadron
DK: Right
HM: And we were the ones with peaky cups. You know, everybody else had foddered caps, we had a proper peaky cap. Fortunately when I was at Belfast, I got the one job that was going as driver to the officer in charge of the engineering and electrical works all over Ireland, so my job was to drive him to whatever airfield or maintenance area that needed his attention
DK: And what sort of vehicle were you driving him in then?
HM: A Hillman car
DK: Right
HM: One was one in a Hillman car to wherever was necessary, if so, to be honest I’ve been all over Northern Ireland,
DK: So, was he an officer then?
HM: Flight lieutenant
DK: Flight lieutenant, right
HM: Yes, he was Flight Lieutenant and he was in charge of electrical and mechanical vehicles and sites all over Northern Ireland
DK: Right
HM: So I have been nearly in every town in Northern Ireland you can think of, I spent some time in Ballykelly, the thing was, when I was with him, going around all these places, we’d call it aerodrome and he would say, I’m gonna be here three days, driver, just please yourself of what you do, I’m here and if anybody stops you, just refer them to me,
DK: Right
HM: So, every time I went anywhere, I was just on me own, wandering about, going for a coffee or whatever, for a cup of tea, you know
DK: So you got to know Northern Ireland quite well, then
HM: I got to know Northern Ireland upside down, yeah, went to Belfast, way along the top, Ballykelly was a big aerodrome and further along was Coleraine River Valley and Eglinton, which was also a naval station, they didn’t have any planes of course, it was just the station, but he had to look after the maintenance of the works on every station, you see, so, Eglinton came under his edict [unclear] as well, and I went into Londonderry quite a bit when I was off duty, and we used to go to a Roman Catholic tearoom which they had, you know, for Air Force, well, for forces members, so I often went there and had a cup of tea and a wad as they called it and the made us very welcome, at night [unclear] went to the cinema which was only a tin hut, so you can imagine what it was like when I rained, you couldn’t hear anything on because of the thundering and the rain but it was light entertainment I quite enjoyed it because I was more or less free-lance for nine months in Northern Ireland, the one thing that comes to mind, one night the chef put something on whatever it was, I think it was, I don’t know if it was [unclear] or whatever it was, anyway it was quite hot, and through the night, oh, everybody was ill, everybody on the camp was ill, you just had to go outside, you know, there was nothing else to do for it, you know, everybody was in the same boat, so, but it was a really desperate situation, I can tell you, caused many a laughing once we got over the problem, you know, the whole site, the whole camp, upside down, you know, with people dashing outside,
DK: Did the chef get into trouble over that?
HM: [laughs] I would imagine he did, I’ve never heard the end of the story of that but I imagine he would get a severe tipping off from the officer in charge [laughs], of the camp, you know, but it was just one of those things that all, it’s all in life, isn’t it? You know, so, that was it, Northern Ireland, anyway while I was at Northern Ireland after about nine months, a memo came round to anyone resting becoming an air gunner, you know, so I thought, oh damn, I’d done nine months here, I said, we’d be doing nothing really, you know, I always part of the war, and haven’t had me done, somebody had to do it, so anyway, I volunteered and I was accepted for aircrew
DK: Can you remember which year this would have been or
HM: That would have been 194
DK: 3?
HM: No, no, it was much later than that, was it ’43? That would be ’43, end of ‘43
DK: So, end of ’43, ‘44
HM: Yeah, [unclear] the end of ’43 or begin of ’44, was round that period, yes, we’re in 1944
DK: Right
HM: 1944, I definitely went and as you went on to London in those days and in Lord’s Cricket Ground was the
DK: The aircrew
HM: The aircrew selection so I went to the selection there, passed that, no [unclear] I was accepted to become an air gunner, of course you had a severe medical to become an aircrew, you had to be perfect, you know, eyesight, hearing, you know, there was no, if you had the slightest thing wrong with you, you didn’t pass, so anyway I passed all the tests, then we got about seven jabs for various things in case we were sent abroad, all at once you know [unclear] and the lads were going bang! Bang! [mimics a banging noise] so the tallest fellows it seemed to affect them more than us little fellows, you know, and they, they were going down, flat all with all these jabs, I mean, obviously they came round after a few minutes but they knocked them all out [unclear] so they took them a day so for everybody to get settled in so when I went there we just did the usual sports activities and training you know, what you call it? Physics, physical fitness
DK: Yep, yeah, [unclear]
HM: We did a lot of that, so we were perfectly fit when we left there, funnily enough I was just, I was there three months and I can’t remember, I can’t imagine where, how I was there three months, took my time I suppose
DK: And this was at Lord’s
HM: And this was at Lord’s Cricket Ground
DK: Yeah
HM: At the Long Room, so I can always say I’ve been at Lord’s Cricket Ground and the Long Room as well. Of course, I know it’s this sort of side effect, but you met a lot of ladies or young girls and you had a good time with them, I mean, I reckon all the airmen would tell you that,
DK: Yeah
HM: We’ve all had flings with somebody, you know, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know if this is [unclear], I had a, I met a lovely young lady, and she wanted me, I found out that she was a Jewess, you know, well, I did, that part didn’t bother me at all, you know, I said, I’m only here for a couple of months I said whatever, we’ll have a nice time, take her to the pictures, dances, and what that, which I did and [unclear], me mom and dad would like to see ye, oh no, no, I’m not, no, I’m not, so I said, yeah, well, it’s very kind of them but I’d rather think I’m not ready for that yet, so that passed, that was a little bit of history, some of my family don’t know that, but she was a lovely girl and we got on well together, you know, was just
DK: Well, it wasn’t the time to get serious then, was it?
HM: It wasn’t the time to get serious anyway with anybody, I mean, you could’ve been here one day and [unclear] the next, but it’s not fair to anybody [unclear], anyway that’s fine so I passed all the examinations and then I went to training school, to train as air gunner, but this, sorry, I’ve got mixed up, I put Bridgnorth before, it should be after
DK: Right, ok
HM: Right?
DK: Right, ok
HM: [unclear] by Bridgnorth, kind of when we learned about air gunnery
DK: Right, that was at Bridgnorth
HM: That was at Bridgnorth
Dk: Right, ok
HM: We learned all about Bridgnorth, we didn’t do route marches there, was all air gunnery training
DK: So, what, at Bridgnorth then, what sort of training as a gunner did you do then, was it all on the ground or?
HM: Yes, just to refresh me memory, I went to Pembury for air gunnery training,
DK: Right
HM: First
DK: Right
HM: I’m trying to get where this is in, I should have me book out, then I go to Bridgnorth first, or did I go to Pembrey first?
DK: That doesn’t matter, I mean, you obviously went to both, so,
HM: I went, yes, I went to Pembrey, yes, I think that, I think Pembrey was the first thing
DK: Right
HM: Before that
DK: So, it’s Pembrey then Bridgnorth
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: Eh.
DK: So what was
HM: This, when he came flying Bridgnorth, Pembrey could’ve been after Bridgnorth, that’s right, ah, that’s right, I learned all about air gunnery, on the ground
DK: On the ground, so what did the training involve then? Did you have to get to know the wetland and [unclear]
HM: You had to learn all about the Browning 303 guns and you didn’t have to bother about rifles but we did do rifling on a course, firing at targets, you know, our legs spread out and
DK: Lying down
HM: Lying down, yeah, everybody lying down and instructors behind you telling you what to do, so, that was part of the training, firing rifles, we also did clay pigeon
DK: Right
HM: Clay pigeon shooting as well
DK: Is it something you took to? Were you quite?
HM: Yeah, quite happy with, I quite enjoyed clay pigeon shooting but because I mostly hit them, I must have been ok for that, yeah, I quite enjoyed that training
DK: So, was it deflection shooting then?
HM: Yes, deflection, oh no, deflection came at Pembrey
DK: Ah, right, ok.
HM: So, Bridgnorth comes before Pembrey
DK: Yeah
HM: We went to Pembrey, that’s the thing
DK: And that’s where you learned pigeon shooting
HM: That’s where I learned all the, that’s where we were up in Ansons and that’s where we did our air gunnery training, and hit a towing target, you know, a plane would drag a tow and we would have to fire at the tow, which had sunny camera as well, as well as live shooting we did
DK: So you had a trip in the Avro Anson then, would that’d been the first time you’ve flown?
DK: That was the first I’d ever been in the air
HM: Yes, this is the Anson one, this is, that’s, oh no, that’s Lossiemouth, that’s further on now, anyway, I did the, I did Pembrey training on Ansons, and that’s the first time I’ve been flying,
DK: So, was the turret in the Anson
HM: No, I can’t remember, there must have been a turret,
DK: Right
HM: There must have been a turret because we had been to fly, we had to fire at the drove
DK: Right
HM: And according to that, I had four percent so, that’s supposed to be good,
DK: Four percent?
HM: Supposed to be good,
DK: Right
HM: Out of a hundred rounds, yes, [unclear]
DK: A hundred rounds, four hit and that was quite good
HM: Yeah, pretty good, must have been, I passed. So, I did me Anson training down there and air gunnery and learning all about deflection
DK: Yeah
HM: Find the speed of your aircraft, find the speed of their aircraft, you find the width, the length and the distance between and fire a head of it, so many yards ahead so that the bullet was collided at the same time with the aircraft, hopefully, anyway I must admit when I hit, well, I did hit it a few times, so that’s gone down there so, so I passed out as an air gunner down in Anson, down in Pembrey on Ansons. From there I went to Lossiemouth
DK: Right, so [unclear] the logbook
HM: That’s where the logbook comes in
DK: Can I have a look?
HM: Yeah, have a look at there first.
DK: So, it’s, I’ve got here, just for this, it’s number 1 AGS, is that
HM: Yeah, 1 AGS
DK: It’s that Air Gunnery School?
HM: That’s Air Gunnery School
DK: And that’s at Pembrey
HM: Yeah, at Pembrey at that time
DK: So, that’s on the Avro Ansons
HM: Yeah. That’s on the Ansons.
DK: That tells you here how many rounds you fired. Say, three hundred rounds?
HM: Yeah
DK: So, three hundred rounds score, for example thirty-one?
HM: Thirty-one, yeah
DK: Three hundred rounds splashed, so you were [unclear] into the sea
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: We had tiny cameras as well
DK: The steady cameras, yeah. Oh I see, it actually says sindy cameras, isn’t it?
HM: It says sindy camera, yeah
DK: So, total flying then was twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes
HM: Of training
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: Training at Pembrey, so,
HM: At Pembrey
DK: So, the flights itself weren’t very long, were they?
HM: Oh no
DK: About thirty minutes, thirty, forty minutes
HM: Yeah. No, the flights themselves weren’t very long, you were up
DK: Can you remember how many of you were in the Anson?
HM: There’d be about five of us, ex air gunners
DK: And you’d all take it in turns
HM: We’d all take it in turns
DK: To shoot
HM: Yeah
DK: So, then it tells you how many rounds you fired
HM: It tells how many rounds you fired there and if you were
DK: How many hits?
HM: There is one thing about all this training. If you failed on one subject, you were out
DK: You were out, yeah
HM: You didn’t get a second chance you know
DK: So, it says here beam
HM: Beams
DK: Beam, 7.83 percent. And then Beam RS
HM: Don’t remember what RS stands for
DK: That’s 5.66 percent hits. And then quarter
HM: Oh, that’s, ah, that’s if you draw [unclear], yeah, beam is stale across
DK: Beam across, yeah and quarter is 3.24 percent
HM: Yeah, it would be probably diving, and you’d have to follow it down
DK: So the quarter then, total was four thousand eight hundred rounds so you [unclear] corner
HM: In total
DK: In total, in total
HM: Oh yes, you done a lot of firing altogether but
DK: And they were all with the Browning 303s
HM: All with 303s
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: So, after Pembrey then, you’ve gone to Lossiemouth
HM: I went to Lossiemouth
DK: And that’s with 20 OTU, 20 Operational Training Unit
HM: Yeah, Operational Training Unit
DK: So, I’m just reading your logbook here, it’s just for the benefit of the recording,
HM: Yeah
DK: So, you went to Lossiemouth in September 1944
HM: Yeah
DK: And you were training on Wellingtons
HM: Wellingtons, yeah, lovely aircraft
DK: So, what do you, you liked the Wellingtons
HM: Lovely aircraft
DK: Yeah
HM: Yes, I liked the Wellington, was a really good, it seemed to be, what shall we say
DK: Stable?
HM: Very stable and, you know, it seemed you could do anything with it, and it would answer the call, whatever you wanted to do with it. You know, if you would tell the skipper to corkscrew, you know,
DK: Yeah. So, they were very agile
HM: Yeah, very agile aircraft, very manoeuvrable
DK: Very manoeuvrable.
HM: Manoeuvrable
DK: So, when you were training on the Wellingtons then, did you go? You were training in the turrets,
HM: Oh yes, we in the turrets, yeah
DK: So, you were in the rear turret
HM: Rear turret
DK: The front turret? Or the rear turret?
HM: I was never in the mid upper gunner
DK: Right
HM: I was always in the rear turret and I followed, you’re sort of on your own at the back, yeah, everybody else is in the front, and you are the full length of the aircraft at the other end, you felt on your own but you didn’t feel lonely, shall I say, you felt on your own but not lonely
DK: So, by the time you got to 20 OTU, have you met up with your crew now then or kind of [unclear]?
HM: That’s where you meet your crew
DK: Right
HM: All except the engineer
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah
DK: And how did your crew come together then?
HM: Well, you’re all sort of, shall I say, in a big room, and air gunners, you know, you’re only a little groups of navigators, air gunners and what, and then you sort of just wander about and you find this, well, you usually find the skipper and then sort of go round with him, having a chat with everybody and then see who liked to join us and you know, was, it wasn’t sort of you go there and you go there, you know, you had one and talked to everybody
DK: Did you think that was a good idea that you kind of found your own crews, you weren’t ordered to?
HM: Well, I think so because you thought, well, I could get on with that chap, and you know, if he’s willing to join us, well, what do you say? Well, they told their friend, so what do you think?
DK: Cause it’s quite
HM: [unclear] quite like him
DK: It’s quite unusual, isn’t it, because normally in the military, in the RAF, you’re told where to go and do this, do this
HM: [unclear]
DK: But the crewing up was very much
HM: Very much a disorganised organised
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, organised disorder, so they say
DK: And can you remember the name of the pilot that you ended up with?
HM: Oh yes, W. B. Holmes
DK: W. B. Holmes
HM: Yeah. Don’t ask me the names, I can tell you the, probably tell you the first name, the, he was called, W. B. Holmes, Basil, we called him Basil, anyway and we had a navigator who was called Jock, he was the bomb aimer, he was a Scot, he came from Scotland. Navigator, we had, he was from London, Ken, Ken, had another air gunner called, the mid upper gunner was called Colman, I forgot his name there, what was his name again? Oh! It’s gone, it’s gone over the head, he was one, he was the grandson of the mustard people, you know, Colman’s mustard
DK: Oh, right, oh right, yeah
HM: Was the grandson of the custard, people, the navigator was called Ken, he came from London. I’ve already given you the bomb aimer. Well, the flight
DK: Flight engineer
HM: Flight engineer, I don’t know if his name’s in the book
DK: We’ll have a look in a minute
HM: It might be
DK: So you were always the rear gunner then
HM: I was always the rear gunner, I operated in that position all the time, all the time I was at Lossiemouth
DK: Cause I noticed towards the end of the time at Lossiemouth, your pilot all the time was Holmes,
HM: Yeah, yeah
DK: So, you’ve crewed up by this point.
HM: Yeah, he’s
DK: So, you had another, other pilots then by
HM: We had another pilots but he was still with us on the pilot, the pilot was still with us every time,
DK: Oh, ok.
HM: The instructor would be with him
DK: Oh, ok, so, you’ve crewed up and where it mentions another pilot, your pilot’s there but he is the instructor,
HM: Yeah
DK: Yes, I’ve [unclear] with you
HM: He’s the instructor as well, you see. It was a nice aircraft, the Wellington, mine was very cold, and we had, fortunately we had heat suits, you know, but once I climbed from the rear turret into the middle over the spire and of course I didn’t have me, me heat on then, I mean, me feet were absolutely frozen, I couldn’t feel them, couldn’t move them, so the lads had to drag us over the top and to plug in to bring the circulus back and
DK: So, did you have a heated suit then?
HM: Oh yeah, I had a heated suit which just [unclear] various points of the aircraft because at fifteen thousand feet, you know, it’s very cold and you could feel it, I mean, as you know, we had silk, wool and silk underwear, as well as ordinary suit, the flying suit on top of that, we had plenty of [unclear], plenty of [unclear], as far as the heat was concerned, the temperature at fifteen is pretty low and I lost the use of my legs cause so cold, as soon as I plugged in warm,
DK: Warmed up again
HM: So, ok, no problem at all. So that was Lossiemouth, I spent quite, I think I told you
DK: Yeah, you, it says here you were at Lossiemouth until the end of November 1944
HM: Yeah, about three months I think there
DK: Yeah. And then, going on for the benefit of the recording here, you then gone to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Heavy Conversion Unit, Rufforth
DK: Rufforth
HM: Just outside York
DK: Right. So then, that’s March 1945,
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s in Halifax IIIs?
HM: Halifax IIIs. Yeah, that was a different one to that one there, that’s the two,
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah, Halifax Mark IIIs.
DK: So, what did you think of the Halifaxes then?
HM: Well, I find them fine, they seemed to me to be a solid aircraft, you know, was heavily, was, apparently it was, the engine was underpowered, should’ve had stronger engines, they had the Merlins, Merlin engines but apparently was underpowered, the Halifaxes but also workhorse of the Air Force, no doubt about it
DK: Cause the Halifax III had the Bristol Her, Bristol engines, didn’t they?
HM: The
DK: Bristol [unclear]
HM: They had, they changed to Bristol engines, but the first ones, the Merlins were underpowered,
DK: Underpowered, yeah
HM: But I found it, the skipper seemed to like it, he, there is one thing about him he would let us have a go at flying it as well
DK: Oh, right
HM: Of course, I mean, he was here all the time, so he said, well, if anything happens to me, at least somebody will do, sort of take over and manage to get home sort of thing
DK: So, how often did you take control then?
HM: More or less every time we were up, just for a five minutes maybe, just get a go at it and feel
DK: Really?
HM: Feel it, you know, but nearly every time up, without the instructor
DK: Yeah, without the instructor looking [laughs]
HM: He wouldn’t let, but the skipper did, especially if we were on a long flight,
DK: Yeah. Do you
HM: Three hours up, three hours up to five I was
DK: Do you think that might have given your pilot a bit of confidence, knowing that if something happened to him, somebody would step in?
HM: Yeah. Well, I think that’s what he wanted us to do, I think that it gave him, as he was saying, probably gave him confidence if anything happened to him we could, at least one of us could probably manage to get us home sort of thing. But that’s where I finished, that’s where I finished me time, Rufforth. [unclear] I got to a squadron first, I got to a squadron after that but you [unclear] any about the squadron
DK: Alright, ok, so at the Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s where the flight engineer would have joined you, wouldn’t
HM: That’s where he joined, at [unclear], that’s the first time we’d met him
DK: So you are now a crew of seven at that point
HM: We’re a crew of seven at that point
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: Right, so that’s it for the logbook then
HM: That’s it for the logbook, yeah. The reason for that was the war ended
DK: Alright
HM: We just got into Full Sutton, 77 Squadron, got booked in and had a chat there, got me leader, met everybody we had to meet and of course the war finished
DK: Yeah
HM: So, I never got on operations
DK: Never got on operations
HM: So, and then
DK: So, after all that training
HM: [laughs] after years training,
DK: Yeah
HM: You know,
DK: So it says here, the last flight here is 4th of May 1945
HM: That’s it
DK: As a rear gunner
HM: And I trained, I started
DK: Holmes’s again the pilot
HM: Yeah
DK: In the Halifax III
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s just before you went to 77 Squadron at Full Sutton
HM: Yeah, went to Full Sutton and they had Halifaxes of course, booked in and did everything we had to do, we stayed about a month I think,
DK: Yeah, so
HM: And then I got
DK: The war’s ended
HM: The war ended, so there was no use for air gunners
DK: Yeah
HM: So, then I got posted down to RAF Beaulieu. From Beaulieu, cause if you knew you moved through the rank of sergeant by then
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, when I was sergeant at Rufforth, well, I was sergeant at Lossiemouth. Then I transferred from there down to Beaulieu, A-F-E-E Squadron, which was Air Force Experimental Establishment, so they were expecting on, they were practicing jeeps, and dropping jeeps
DK: Oh, right, ok, from
HM: Parachuting jeeps
DK: From Halifaxes again
HM: No, no, from, what aircraft did they get there? I can’t remember what aircraft we had, was it the Dakota? Could’ve been a Dakota.
DK: Yeah
HM: But I, you see, I wasn’t flying then
DK: Alright
HM: I’ve been moved back to my MT, I was NCO in charge of the MT at Beaulieu, cause I was gone up the rank again, I was Flight Sergeant by then,
DK: Looking back now, how do you feel that, after all that training, you didn’t do any operations? Do you feel that’s a good thing or?
HM: Well
DK: Relieved?
HM: Oh, I didn’t, to be honest, I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel anything
DK: No
HM: I just felt I’d done all that work for nothing. I mean, of course they didn’t know when the war was going to end,
DK: No
HM: You know, they got no idea so I could well have been in operations
DK: Was there any suggestion about you going to the Far East?
HM: Never any [unclear], just, no, I was never at any time moved out of the UK, the only time I went was Northern Ireland, it’s as far as I got across the water, but, no, I never, they didn’t, I don’t know, it just didn’t seem to bother me at the time, I mean, you’re young, you know, you’re twenty years old so, and you don’t sort of care what happens, you just get on with life as it comes,
DK: So how did you, after all these years, how do you look back at your time in the RAF then? Was it?
HM: I enjoyed my time in the RAF
DK: Yeah
HM: In fact so much so I wanted to stay on
DK: Right, so
HM: I wanted it to become a career
DK: Right
HM: But
DK: So you left in ’47.
HM: So I left in ’47. I did five full years in the RAF, I went in April and I think I came out in April approximately anyway
DK: And what was your career after that?
HM: Well, I had to go back to civvy life and I mean, already most of the jobs had been taken up because I’d been out for two years, most of them had been out for forty five, you know, out of forty five alot, I still [unclear] went after that but for two years the jobs were getting filled up
DK: Yeah
HM: So
DK: So, there’s few opportunities for you by now
HM: There was fewer opportunities really, there was very little to pick on, so I had to go sort of, I did, I joined, a [unclear] worked as a [unclear] so he got me a job at the, [unclear] shop, was a big concern, [unclear] called it, he had about six shops spread over here and there and I used to drive the van there delivering the goods round the shop for customers you know and then from there, I didn’t like that job at all, well, I had, it was just to get money, really, you had to have something to live on, so from there I went to insurance, I did two years in insurance and then a job came up at Hoover Limited were applying for a man so I applied there and I got a job there and that was the best thing that I’ve done in my life, working for Hoover
DK: So you were there a number of years then
HM: I was there for, oh, ten years, something like that
DK: You say you wanted to stay on in the Air Force. Did, was there a reason why?
HM: The reason was why, my wife
DK: Ah, ok [laughs]
HM: She wanted a home
DK: Right, ok
HM: Cause I said, you know, I’m, I’d like to stay on but she said, well, I’m not very happy about that, so I said, well, fair right enough, fair enough, I’ll, I could have made a lovely career cause I’d been put forward to become an officer, you know and the squadron leader, I can see him now, engineering officer, I wonder whether actually he’d come and think of it because I was in the charge of the MT section and I had WAAFs as well and the young, the young WAAFs were devils, they’re always late in turning up for work, you know, [unclear] started at eight o’clock, there’s one in particular, [unclear], nice girl, always a half an hour late, you know, and I used to warn her, [unclear] if you keep going on like this, so I did fancy but I got kind of fed up, so I said, look, I’m going to show my authority in here instead of being nice to you all, I’m gonna be a sergeant, so I put her on a fizzer and I’ll tell you another one, I went, [unclear], report order and all so I saw the WAAF, Flight Lieutenant she was, had a word with her, you know, she was a nice girl, I said, you know, a WAAF, you see, putting on a WAAF in charge is different than putting a man in charge, when you want a man in charge, you stand beside him,
DK: Right
HM: If you put a WAAF on charge, you stand beside the officer,
DK: Right
HM: And she asks the other questions, you know, and the reason why I brought her [unclear] and of course there’s a WAAF sergeant with the girl so anyway she got seven days [unclear], I said, there you are, that’ll have to keep you, she said, well, I wasn’t going to go out anyway [laughs], oh well, that’s a good excuse, but I wasn’t that type of NCO, you know, I was very lenient with them, as long as they did their job I was quite happy, there’s only I got tired of them, not turn up with the others, which was like school, and that was another [unclear], the squadron leader and engineering officer who M T [unclear], he, I put one of the lads on a fizzer, he’d been abroad and he only had shoes, well he [unclear] so he had to wear boots you know, well, aircrew always wore shoes but ordinary airmen wore boots
DK: Yeah
HM: And he was an ordinary airman and he just had shoes on this day, officer happened to come along, Squadron Leader [unclear], can picture him, and he says, he came into the office and he says, Mercer, says, I saw an airman over there and he’s got shoes on, he’s not allowed to wear shoes, so I said, well, I’m sorry sir but that airman has just come from abroad and he hasn’t been issued with shoes, boots, never mind that, you’ve got to put him on a charge, so I put him on a charge, and then a flight lieutenant took the [unclear] that day to say I got this lad, this airman, what you’re here for, you know, oh, you’ve been wearing shoes, you’re not allowed to wear shoes. So he said he hadn’t any boots, he said, I haven’t any boots, he says, well, the [unclear] chaps in charge of the distribution of clothing
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: The quartermaster
HM: Well, sort of a quartermaster, yeah, airman in the forces
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Clothing whatever, anyway, he hadn’t boots to fit in so well, he said, that’s tough, he says, you should be wearing boots, he said, I had them before now, so I said, I’m sorry sir, you can’t charge him because this airman has just come from abroad and there’s no way if the stores, the main stores haven’t got boots in, there’s some over there the equipment, I’ll talk to the equipment officers
DK: The equipment officer, yeah
HM: So, he was just a flight lieutenant, so he said, righto, I’ll take you [unclear], discharged, so obviously phoned squadron leader [unclear] here, is Mercer there? oh yes, speaking sir, I want to see you, ok, so I went to see him, he said, you did the wrong thing, you know, I said, why, sir? He said, well, you got this airman off his charge, I said, well, I believe in equality as well and I’m right, right decisions to be made, sir, well, I says, this airman had no chance to get shoes, the boots, I said, all he could bare were shoes, at least he turned up properly
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Did his duties properly. Oh right, well, I’ll let you off this time, I says, ok, sir. Anyway, the next [unclear] rings me up again, I want a word with you, so I said, yeah, that’s fine. He said, let’s forget about that situation, he said, would you not like to join full time, and be make of your career, I said, to be quite honest, sir, I would love to, but you’d have to have two words with my wife if you wanted to get me here. So, you know, there’s a camaraderie in the Air Force as well, you can talk, at one I suppose I can talk [unclear] me, but I think the discipline is not quite so strict as the other forces, there’s a little bit of leniency, in my opinion, because it was the same on nearly every camp I went to, I used to get on well with all the officers and all the fellows around about, [unclear] a different atmosphere amongst the
DK: Is it something you missed then over the years?
HM: Yeah, I miss, I do, I miss the camaraderie as I would call it, the get togetherness, you know
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crew at all?
HM: No, unfortunately we only had one get together, down in London in the Cumberland Hotel, and I never couldn’t get in touch with anybody anymore after that, nobody seemed to bother, you know, but we’d be together quite long to nearly a year nearly from the think of it, when you think of it
DK: There’s a lot of training you went through together, wasn’t it?
HM: A lot of training we went through together, many good nights we had together, and that, the last one the squadron leader I was talking about, the last engineering officer, one night I was finishing the last week actually and it was a terrific storm that night, he says, come on, we’ll have to go out and check all the aircraft, so I went round with him and all the time he says, [unclear] you could make a lovely career, he says, there’s good things ahead for you if you want to stay in, he says, I’ll speak for you, so, but he tried all that, all that night and it was a really horrible night, wind howling and we just checked the aircraft and then that was it but he was, he’d been in the Air Force a long time, he was engineer, squadron leader and he was engineering officer, and I got on very well with him and wanted him just things going through my head sometimes, we had to lift a huge pile about the height of this room round, out of a Nissen hut, you know, was the height of the Nissen hut, I think it was the dining section so it might have been a bigger hut, anyway it had to be lifted this boiler had to be lifted out
DK: So it was a boiler you were lifting out
HM: It was a boiler I was lifting out, one of these huge things and so I said, one of the drivers, he says, look, will you take the trawls crane, to lift this boiler up, for we want to get to disposal, oh, I can’t, I can’t do that, I say, yes, pushed an empty [unclear], yeah but, he said, but I have never lifted a boiler and I have never driven a trawls crane, says, some driver you are, so anyway, I couldn’t get any of them, anyone, I said, it’s slightly the worst thing, do it yourself if you want to do it, if you want don’t, do it yourself, so I had to, I had never drove a [unclear] crane to be quite truthful, so anyway I had a run, just did what I had to do and give it a few works to see how it lifted and dropped and I lifted it up, put it up, and the lad said, gave us a clap [laughs] after at first, I said, you lot should have been doing this, not me
DK: So, can I just go back to something, I just noticed on here, 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Yeah
DK: It says, you did twenty-eight hours twenty-four minutes daily and seven hours five minutes flying at night, so that was all training
HM: That’s all training, yeah
DK: So, what was the night-time flying like, was that hazardous or?
HM: Well, it was hazardous in a way, because although the war had finished, you never knew if there was gonna be a stray around so you had to still keep on your guard, you know, I’d rather think you were so tensed really but you had to still keep your way as you were flying and we were flying right down to the coast, you know, the full length of England and just to the coast and back and [unclear] and the skipper says, we better turn back or they think we are going to drop a bomb on them and we were going over Bristol Channel, just around about that area, he says, the rear gunner, you can have test your guns here if you wish, I said, ok, so I prepared everything and had a few bursts, he said, I think, I think that’s enough, they might think we are firing at them and they will be firing back at us, yeah, these are just little things that, you know, people think, well you wouldn’t do, but you do
DK: Cause some of these training flights they are quite long, are they? There is one here is three hours and three minutes
HM: Three hours, yeah
DK: And others are quite short, aren’t they? About forty minutes, fifteen minutes
HM: Yeah, you’ll find the one, three hours and I think there’s one a bit longer than that
DK: I got three twenty-five and three fifteen
HM: Yeah
DK: It looks like that
HM: That’s when we went down the coast, right to the bottom and back
DK: Ok then, I’ll probably stop you there, I think, that’s marvellous that is
HM: Yeah
DK: Thanks very much for your time
HM: Yeah, well
DK: I’ll stop that now
HM: We did our work and I never used it
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, we put a lot of time and thought into it, sort of thing
DK: So, you put a lot of time and effort into the training and then never did any operations
HM: No, we never did the finishing work, but I enjoyed me time in the Air Force anyway, you know, the five years that I had, I’ve got, you know, some nice memories
DK: Memories, yeah
HM: Memories of it
DK: Yeah
HM: And that’s as you say, the only thing that I didn’t do an operation [unclear] after training, you know, but
DK: [unclear]
HM: That’s a luck of the draw,
DK: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Mercer
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMercerH170519, PMercerH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:14:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Mercer served in the RAF initially as a transport driver and then trained to become an air gunner. He worked as a milkman before being called up in April 1942. Was sent to Weston-super-Mare, where he played in the military band. Was then sent to Blackpool to train as a transport driver. From there he was sent to RAF Bridgnorth for general training. Was then posted to 901 Squadron on barrage balloons at RAF Kidbrooke, London, where as a transport driver he supplied balloon sites with food and equipment. Was then posted to Eglinton, Northern Ireland at 5019 Squadron, where he drove a flight lieutenant to various airfields and maintenance sites. Was then sent to train as an air gunner. He flew on Ansons at RAF Pembrey and on Wellingtons at RAF Lossiemouth. Was then posted to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Rufforth on Halifax Mark IIIs and from there to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton. By that time, war had ended and so he never got on operations. Was then posted to RAF Beaulieu to the Air Force Experimental Establishment.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Northern Ireland
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1945
1663 HCU
20 OTU
77 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
entertainment
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Pembrey
RAF Rufforth
RAF Weston-super-Mare
service vehicle
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1034/11406/AMinnittPB170314.2.mp3
de81edc494e14a67df6220d791edcd59
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Minnitt, Bruce
P B Minnitt
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bruce Minnitt (1923- 2020, 1232347 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 211 and 244 Squadron Coastal Command and with a Ferry Unit in the Far East.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Minnitt, PB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bruce Minnitt on the 13th of March 2017 at his home. If I just pop that down there. You'll see me keep looking down.
BM: Well, I'm not familiar with all these modern gizmos.
DK: No. I’m not [laughs] I'm not either to be honest. The technology hasn't let me down yet but there is always a first time. So if I keep looking down I’m just making sure they're both going. It says one’s going there. So what, what I’d like to just ask is just a few questions and whatever and just sort of get a bit of background. First of all, what I would like to know is what were you doing immediately before the war?
BM: Thinking that the war started in September 1939. Well, let's getaway a little bit in so far as our age is concerned. I was born in 1923.
DK: Right.
BM: So that made me when war broke out in 1939 I was sixteen.
DK: So you were still at, still at school.
BM: No.
DK: Ah. Right. Ok.
BM: I left school fourteen days after I was fourteen years old.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: So my education has been sadly neglected during my lifetime and as it happened upon leaving school I was very fortunate because fourteen days after leaving school I had a job.
DK: Oh right.
BM: But my grandfather owned the local village shop and my father of course was part of that concern and I got a job. Ten shillings a week. It was wonderful for the hours that were put in.
DK: And that was working in the shop was it?
BM: And I was working in the shop as a —
DK: Yeah.
BM: A lad with an apron around me and I was [pause] I enjoyed it and the experience did me good because after a couple of years my father arranged for me to go to Lincoln and I got a job as a sort of an apprentice working for the best grocers in Lincoln. I used to think they were the best grocers because they had a couple of nice little vans and I used to drive around Lincoln. I was only sixteen —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Years old. I didn't have a licence of course. We used to drive all around Lincoln. No problem. Never, never got bothered by anybody and so I had a couple of years of experience in that and then I went back home and very soon I joined up. I actually volunteered, myself and another friend when we were both [pause] How old would we be? Seventeen and three quarters. I joined up in February.
DK: Was there any, any reason why you chose the RAF? Was —
BM: Well yes of course. I mean it was so glamorous, wasn't it? I mean, we were always going to be Tail End Charlies. I joined up as a, at least I thought I joined up as a tail gunner.
DK: Right.
BM: On bombers. I mean, in 1940, ‘41 rather they were looking for bombers because the high point of the fighters had gone. I was trained as, as a fighter.
DK: Right.
BM: On singles.
DK: Right.
BM: And I did, then I did a navigation course on Ansons and, in Canada whatever. And then we came back from Canada to this country and the first thing of course that I had to do was a conversion course.
DK: Just, just stepping back a bit your, by this time you’ve, you’re a pilot then are you?
BM: I was. Yes. I got my wings in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: But it didn't matter really whether I was a fighter pilot, bomber pilot or whatever.
DK: Right.
BM: I think they used to move us around as and when required. I mean the fighter era really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Was in 1940.
DK: So, what, what was the first type of aircraft that you were trained on?
BM: The first one that I actually went and did my original training on and got, went solo on was a Magister.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Now, I don't whether you've heard —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Of those.
DK: I know the Magisters.
BM: Magisters. A lovely little —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Biplane.
DK: Monoplane. Yeah.
BM: Monoplane. And we did that at Reading.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Woodley.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At Reading. And it was just about deciding whether you were fit to be able to fly an aeroplane or whether you’d got the confidence to, to do it.
DK: So were there sort of aptitude tests?
BM: That's what it was.
DK: It was. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And we had to be able to, I think the basic test was you had to do your solo in the maximum of twelve hours.
DK: Right.
BM: I think that was what happened. Well fortunately I think what was I? Eight and a quarter or something like that. I had a little bit of an aptitude for it but I always remember my instructor. I thought at the time, well he was a very brave man. How old was I? Eighteen. Sending me off in this plane on my own up there and I always remember thinking, ‘My God, I've got this bloody thing up here. How am I going to get it down again? [laughs] And —
DK: Were they, were they very good, the instructors?
BM: Well —
DK: What were, what were the instructors like?
BM: I think they had to have a lot of faith.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So can you, can you remember how many flights you had with the instructor before you went solo?
BM: Well yes, I did about seven and a half, seven [pause] I haven't unfortunately I think it was about seven and a half I think.
DK: Seven and a half hours was that?
BM: Hours.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Dual flying.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Before they said, ‘Right.’
DK: ‘Off you go.’
BM: ‘Off you go.’
DK: So what was your feelings then when you went off by yourself for the first time?
BM: Well, I thought what a damn fool I am [laughs] going up with this aeroplane on my own up there. Nobody to help me. No radio. Nothing like that. I couldn't shout, ‘Help.’ You know, ‘What do I do now?’ And I thought I’ll just try and remember what he told me. All the different checks you go through.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Had I got them all right? And I came and landed. It must have been reasonably alright because he said, ‘Off you go again’ so off I went and did another circuit and bump and came around and he said, ‘Ok.’ And that was that. Still did a little bit of flying. Only a time or two after that before we got moved on.
DK: Right. So you got moved on from Reading then.
BM: We got moved on from Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And our, our first EFTS —
DK: Yeah.
BM: I'm not going to try and confuse you with letters.
DK: That's ok.
BM: Elementary Flying Training School.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Which was in Newquay.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Reading and then Newquay.
BM: I went to Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then Newquay. And it was an Elementary Flying Training School but we never did any flying. It was all, you know pounding the streets of Newquay and that.
DK: Square, square bashing.
BM: I did the six months down at Newquay and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And well it was some hard work but I still enjoyed it because the weather was decent. We used to play a lot on the sands and that sort of thing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We enjoyed that. And then we went from EFTS. I’ve missed some out. My memory is I can’t remember what my own name was.
DK: Don't worry.
BM: I’d moved to Canada then.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d done our ground stuff. I think actually they got a little bit fed up of me because we got moved up to Heaton Park near Manchester.
DK: Right.
BM: It was sort of a transit camp. You go there before you get sent here, there and everywhere and I used to break out of the camp at night and I’d come out on the train and that sort of thing. I remember no one occasion I went back after a weekend at home which I shouldn’t have been because I had no passes and I jumped straight into the arms of the military police. I went through the wall in the, in the park at Heaton Park. A lot of lads had found that out. We jumped through this hole and there were four or five of blooming military police stood on the other side.
DK: Did you, did you get into trouble over that then?
BM: Well, ‘Report to the adjutant 8 o’clock tomorrow morning.’. So I got a week confined to camp for that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, what they used to make us do you put a heavy pack on your back and you had to run around the blooming park. The perimeter of the park.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which wasn't funny. And then probably have to go back to the orderly room and polish the floors and all that. Well, I went, I saw some leave passes on this adjutant’s table while I was there. I thought, oh, you know he might not miss a few of those. So, I put some of these leave passes in my pocket and while I was there I got, he’d got the old stamp. You know, they used to stamp them. That's fine. And I got a mate of mine he could sign them for me.
DK: Yeah.
BM: His name was Squadron Leader Fred Bowls or whatever his name was [laughs] and it was all very nice but unfortunately one of these weekends I went home using this pass [there was nothing to do] we were a few weeks at Manchester. It was a bank holiday weekend. Well, that was the worst thing I could do because all military traffic, leisure traffic was stopped for the weekend. The civilians were all very much in need of all this traffic and I went home on this weekend and of course again the military police, ‘Where's your leave pass? What are you doing?’ Well, I’d got a nice little leave pass there which I showed them it. ‘There you are corporal.’ ‘Very good. Carry on.’ I said my grandmother wasn't very well so I had to go home and see her before she died.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: I had to. There were a lot of poorly grandmothers around in those days and it was a bad weekend to go. And as I’ say there were other weekends. The last weekend I got the opportunity was when I went and jumped through the wall in to the loving arms of the military police. Anyway, shortly after that we got posted and we went off to Canada.
DK: Do you remember much about the trip over to Canada? Were you on a, can you remember which ship you were on?
BM: Well, I don't remember. But I do, what I do remember it was, it was amazing really we had two battleships.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had four cruisers, and we had ten destroyers and that was going the other way. And it took us three weeks to get to St Johns, Newfoundland.
DK: Right.
BM: From Glasgow we went actually and we went right across Canada. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and all the rest of it. Lovely people the Canadians.
DK: What did, what did you think about Canada when you got there?
BM: Oh, it was fantastic. Absolutely fantastic because you see you must remember that this was 1941, the beginning of 1942 when we got [pause] and everything was rationed of course.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we didn’t have white bread. It was all this stingy old brownish bread and everything like potatoes and milk. Poor old milk were about ninety percent water. I know there is a lot of water in it anyway but most of it was water and it was miserable old stuff. We got across to Canada full cream milk, the food was fantastic. Lovely white soft bread. We thought we were in heaven. And every station that we stopped at and it took us a long time as we were going across Canada there was always a group of lovely ladies came out on the platforms to welcome us and give us fruit and I mean, we hadn’t seen an orange or a banana or anything like that for, for years. And all of them made these wonderful offerings and eventually we ended up at a little place beside the Alaska highway in [pause] north of Calgary. Alberta.
DK: Alberta. Yeah.
BM: And about a hundred miles north of Calgary and it was a real old-fashioned place. There was no roadways or anything like that but it suited us and what we liked about that place which we hadn’t experience in England everything was laid out in, you know in lateral squares.
DK: Yeah. Yeah
BM: So you had a job to get lost.
DK: Right.
BM: Really, I mean it was —
DK: The grid system.
BM: We had a wonderful navigator. Unless, of course and we did have it happen one young fella he was going north when he should have been going south and [laughs] of course he ended up, if he’d kept on going he would have been at the North Pole but of course he ran out of fuel very easily. Then he had to walk back to get back but that was all part and parcel of the experience —
DK: So what —
BM: Of learning.
DK: What sort of training did you then have in Canada?
BM: Well, we went onto Stearmans in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: That was our first one. This little place called Bowden, and a very very very very safe stable aircraft. I don't know whether you’ve ever seen the, sort of realised the make of aeroplane that there were but these Stearmans were like a big Tiger Moth.
DK: They were biplanes. Yeah.
BM: Biplanes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Very stable. Very very safe. And you could, you could drop them in from a fair old height and, you know they would just bounce. Well most aeroplanes would, you’d buckle the undercarriage up. That was the biggest problem you know with would be pilots was the judgement in landing an aircraft.
DK: Right.
BM: I mean anybody can take an aeroplane off. You’d open the throttle and keep it straight and off you go. It’s a different kettle of fish when it comes down to judging that height.
DK: Right.
BM: Just get it down and drop it in nicely. And there were more people I think got failed for that particular fault.
DK: Not being able to land.
BM: Couldn’t judge the distance.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: To drop it in. And —
DK: So –
BM: Failed because of that.
DK: At this time are you flying solo again or have you got —
BM: Oh, we, oh yes we got so we were flying solo. And I did quite a lot of hours. There was a statutory number of hours.
DK: Right.
BM: Whether you were good, bad or indifferent you had that to do. And when you reached a certain standard than the whole lot of you, fifty bods usually in a, in a flight would get moved on to the next stage and we went on to the SFTS then.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And —
DK: SFTS. Yeah.
BM: You did [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
BM: And at that point we went on to Harvards.
DK: Right.
BM: So we were still training to be fighter pilots. We were still on singles. Now, the Harvards were a wonderful aircraft and we then did a full course on the Harvards. Funnily enough it just made me remember we went to Zimbabwe for a holiday several years ago with a cousin and we were going around Zimbabwe and we went into a museum in Bulawayo.
DK: Right.
BM: One day. A little museum with a few aeroplanes in it and there was a beautiful Harvard in there.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They’d had, they had this Empire Training Scheme.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Out in South Africa. Rhodesia as it was then. It wasn’t Zimbabwe and they did the same course. A lot of the lads went out from this country out to South Africa did the course there and then moved up to the Middle East.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It was much easier for them to get posted in to some sort of military unit in the Middle East. Either in the Western Desert or —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Wherever they went. And it just reminded me that Harvards were, were in South Africa just as much, well not as much they were so very busy with training aircraft in Canada. They did a wonderful job and the Canadians are forever in my heart and I have always wanted to go back full for a holiday.
DK: Right.
BM: To take my wife back after the war. We never got there. Anyway, we came back when all this was over. Well, I’m jumping a bit before we got there. When we’d done the training on the Harvards a group of us got moved from there to Navigation School.
DK: Right.
BM: On Prince Edward Island. PEI as they used to call it. And it had got a job to [pause] it was alcohol free. You know, it was like the old what's the name that they had in New York, didn't they? The —
DK: Oh, the prohibition mission. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they had the same thing on Prince Edward Island. The only way we could get any decent drink and that was invariably it was rum, good thick rum. And we didn’t cope with it [phone ringing] and we could buy this in the mess.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had to get a licence to buy any alcohol off service premises.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, because there were like alcohol stores where you could buy stuff on licence.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But you wouldn’t just go in and, ‘I’ll have a pint of beer missus,’ or whatever you know. You, you had to buy it on licence. But we got all we needed anyway.
DK: Yeah.
BM: So we did this course and then we came back when it was over down through the eastern side of America. I forget the name of the States now down north of New York. Then came back to New York and we came home from New York.
DK: Right.
BM: Actually.
DK: Did you actually stop off at New York. Or not —
BM: We got on at New York.
DK: You got on at New York. Yeah.
BM: Yeah, because we came down by train.
DK: Right.
BM: From Prince Edward Island. From Philadelphia, was it was one of them.
DK: Right.
BM: New England.
DK: Right.
BM: It doesn't matter. Anyway. And we got on at New York and came back from there to Liverpool in seven days.
DK: Right.
BM: It took us three weeks to go out.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The same journey. Well, it wasn’t the same journey really because we were just over. We still lost one by the way. We still lost a troop ship going out. With all these ships looking after us we found more escorts than we had people to go, bods on them because we were going the other way.
DK: Right.
BM: And of course, at that point then the Americans were in the war. They joined up pretty well straight away in 1941. Well, December ‘41 is when they came in didn’t they?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: So it would be ’42. And we got the Empire, Empire Air Training Scheme going and we were going the other way. Anyway, we came back and it took us a week and it was said, now we’ve no way of knowing whether it’s true or not there were twenty thousand troops on that boat.
DK: Wow.
BM: On the Princess Elizabeth. And it was the first time, not the first time that we came in but it was, it was used for civilian traffic before it was actually launched as a passenger vessel.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because it was launched at the beginning of the war, wasn't it? The Queen Elizabeth.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And interesting really. We slept in the swimming pool. There was no water in it. We got these palliases and it was plenty warm enough even in winter. And —
DK: So was the convoy attacked at all on the, on the way back?
BM: Do you know it didn't have one escort.
DK: No.
BM: Not that we saw anyway. If it did it kept out of sight.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d no escort whatever with the Queen Elizabeth and it was, it was forever never, never took a straight course. But it was said and of course everything we got was all rumour. We didn't know whether it was true or not that it was doing about thirty knots all the time and it was too fast for a U-boat.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You know, there was no way they were going to catch it unless, you could get four or five of them like a pack. And it was maybe difficult to get away then but whether it actually got attacked I don't know but it certainly did fire its guns. It might have been in practise I don't know. It had got some massive, massive guns on as big as a warship.
DK: Right.
BM: And also they’d got dozens, literally dozens of anti-aircraft guns. I mean the Elizabeth was a big ship.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: There was a lot of space there to look after and they did a wonderful job. They got us back but of course we went back to a bit of nice English food having had all this wonderful food all the time we were out in —
DK: You had a bit of a shock then, was it? Coming back to this.
BM: Oh yeah. Coming back to this. So then we did [pause] from there we went, moved on to training on Oxfords.
DK: Right.
BM: Twin engine planes.
DK: Can you remember where you were based then? Flying the Oxfords?
BM: Well, you know my first place really was South Cerney in Gloucestershire.
DK: Right.
BM: There was South Cerney and there was Bibury. We did different sort of out-stations like we, one was at Lulsgate Bottom. I remember that one because it, it actually became Bristol Airport.
DK: Right. Yes. Yes.
BM: Eventually.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lulsgate Bottom. And it was, it was a bit tight because the A5 ran right alongside. You know the way Scampton does? You’ve got the A15 pretty well right —
DK: Yeah.
BM: At the end of the runway. You’ve got the A5 there at Bristol and I remember on one occasion I was awaiting my turn to take off because invariably you flew on your own even in a twin engine aircraft and he came in to land and just touched the top of a furniture waggon and the furniture waggon went past on the A5 road and the runway was just over the hedge and he just, he just touched it. But he, and I was stood there waiting and he carried on and landed OK but I should think the driver of the vehicle had a —
DK: A bit of a shock.
BM: An enlightening experience.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Has he mentioned about the Americans when he was in Canada? Flew in to —
BM: No.
DK: No. No.
SM: There was a flight of Americans came in. They all crashed didn’t they? Couldn't land.
BM: Oh, well this was in Canada.
DK: Canada. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: With the frost.
BM: Oh, we had a few experiences. We were, at that period we were going through part of the winter.
DK: Right.
BM: Well, Canadian winters were rather strong —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And one weekend, over one weekend while we were there we actually had eighty degrees of frost. It was [pause] I've got to get this right. Fifty degrees below zero was eighty two degrees of frost.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: It was cold.
DK: Right.
BM: It was. And bearing in mind we were flying Stearmans which were open cockpit.
DK: Oh yeah.
BM: And we used to have a, some chamois leather face masks with three pairs of gloves. Silk gloves, woollen gloves, leather gloves. All of it and you are only allowed to fly for twenty minutes.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. Because of frostbite. You could easily get frostbite.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You were wrapped up like a Chinese monkey and when your time was up you had to come back and land. Get out. Otherwise you would just freeze up.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s sensible I suppose really. And of course, everything was frozen up. You didn't know where the runways were. It was just solid snow and that. On one occasion, this wasn't of course public knowledge but the Americans were supplying the Russians with aircraft and, because we had a photograph of a Flying Fortress with a Russian Star on it. We had, we had 5 Airacobras. Do you know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They —
DK: Single engine fighters.
BM: One of the early [ tricycle ] undercarriage planes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And five came in one after the other. Coming in for re-fuelling on the way up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Up to Alaska.
DK: And to Russia that way presumably.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were right on the Alaska Highway. The side of the Alaska highway and it would take them up to [pause] I forget the names of the places now. Anyway, they’d go up to Alaska and then over the —
SM: Bering Straits.
BM: Bering Straits.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And come down in to America that way. They didn't have to fly them across long stretches of water. Long stretches of snow instead. But these five Airacobras they came in and they couldn't pull up because it was on a shortish runway with a fair amount of wind and the brakes wouldn't, they wouldn’t, I don't know, they just, I mean we could see them doing it. You slid right down the blooming runway such as there was and, on this occasion, came down, landed and there was the old Alaska Highway such as it was but it had all snowed up. But we did have a hedge. The first one went straight through the hedge and the other four followed him just boom boom boom. So we had, we ended up with five Airacobras in somebody's field.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: But they didn't do an awful lot of damage.
DK: No?
BM: Really. They did some damage obviously.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But didn’t do such a lot of damage.
DK: Nobody, nobody hurt then.
BM: They weren't very popular. But I mean, you couldn't blame the pilots. They’d absolutely no chance and I mean once the wheels were on the ground that was it. They just kept on sliding.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They’d no grip. But just another [laughs] funny incident. Not quite on the same day but we, we had one or two lads up doing navigation exercises in Ansons. Well, they weren’t flying them. They were there navigating them. Learning how to navigate. And this, as I say this little runway they couldn’t get the aircraft down. It wasn’t a case of getting it down and making it stop down. They couldn’t get it down.
DK: No.
BM: Because an Anson just used to float on the wind you know. Like a butterfly when it was coming in and you’d get down just a few feet off the ground and you couldn’t get it to come down and stop down. You cut the engine off about somewhere at Dunham Bridge and you could [laughs] you’d come drifting in and in and in. And it went around and around. I’d seem one of them. I don't know how many times it went around but it went around a few times before it did eventually get down. And I think he was actually landing at Lincoln and then coming in [laughs] It was, it was a funny incident really watching them. But anyway we were on about these Airacobras. That was quite interesting. They’d all got the Russian Star on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I think if the English public had known that they’d got the Russian Star there really it would, it would be after. It would be after Russia actually came in officially.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: In to the war but not all that long afterwards.
DK: 1942 wouldn’t it when the Americans supplied.
BM: It wasn’t that that long after.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because they’d actually got to get all the aeroplane [pause] well they weren’t converted. You had them all prepared.
DK: Yeah.
BM: With the proper markings on and all that sort of thing. All these Russian aircraft and the, but they weren't, we didn't see any that I can remember Russian transport. Land transport, you know. Big heavy armoured vehicles and all that sort.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But we did get the aeroplanes. But anyway to come back to where I was we were watching these aircraft do aerobatics at the end of the A5 at Lulsgate Bottom.
SM: Before you say that dad have you mentioned you lost your leave as well didn’t you in Canada? Which wasn't your fault.
BM: Lost me what?
SM: Leave. When someone had been smoking. Can you remember? You had to stay in camp and everybody went in to America.
BM: Lost my leave.
SM: Yeah.
BM: We don't talk about such things as that, Simon.
SM: Yeah. That wasn't your fault, was it. Can you remember?
BM: There was all sorts of things were my fault. I was forever getting myself locked up.
SM: It doesn't matter if you’ve forgotten.
BM: I have. I have.
SM: But he did. He lost his leave.
DK: Lost his leave.
SM: Somebody had been smoking and everyone [pause] they didn’t own up.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And —
DK: You got the blame for it.
SM: Dad got the blame for it and they all went on to, into America on their leave and dad had to stay on.
DK: Oh dear.
SM: On the camp.
BM: Anyway, I did this. This training.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At two or three different small aerodromes you know that —
DK: Yeah.
BM: That were where the main aerodrome had sort of landing grounds and there was, Bibury was another one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Near Gloucester that we did a bit of training. Oh, I think we did, that one was blind landing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You had to, without having any visual you had to come in. I don't know whether anybody has ever told you how they do it. Or did it. I mean there are all these modern gizmos today.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I mean, they can do it but in those days you did it with like Morse Code. A series of, you’d got a dit dit dit dit dit on one side. Then on the other side of the landing as you were coming in da da da. And then you had to get them to join up. You were doing this totally blind. You were just seeing the instrument and you could —
DK: You’re hearing the noise in your ears.
BM: Yeah, we were hearing it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And it had got a constant sound so you got the dit dit dit and the da da da. You could [daaaaa] and when it all —
DK: Came together.
BM: Came together then you knew you were actually on the line. It was very simple but it, it worked, you know. You’d get people down. It didn't tell them how high they were but at least it got them in. Got them down. I mean later in the war they got all sorts of gizmos they were using for landing. There was one system called BABS. It used to amuse us because my wife's name was Babs and they’d got this —
SM: Still is dad.
BM: They’d got this landing. Anyway, we did all this series of different training. When it was all completed then of course you got together. You got navigators, bomb aimers.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Pilots and all the rest of it and you went too [pause]
DK: The OTU.
BM: You've got it, you know. Yeah. And we were sent as a group up to —
DK: Can you remember meeting up with your crew and how that happened?
BM: Well, it was at, that was the way it was done. They would put in a big room I suppose the numbers, equal numbers that they required so many bomb aimers, so many wireless operators, this that and the other all and you just sorted yourself out. I mean if you saw somebody looking a bit like a lost sheep and you’d know what, what job he had whether he was an observer or an air gunner you’d got a —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And then say, ‘Ah, we want, we want an air gunner in our crew.’ Or, ‘We want a navigator.’ Or whatever. But even sort of —
DK: Did you think that was a good idea of getting your crew together because it seems a bit random?
BM: It was very much random but [pause] how else would you do it? I mean you wanted so many bomb aimers. You wanted equal numbers bomb aimers, navigators, pilots. You wanted more air gunners.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because most aircraft had got at least two —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lots of air gunners on.
DK: You've got, you’ve got no idea how good they are at their —
BM: No.
DK: Jobs though, have you?
BM: They might have been bloody useless. And in fact, some were.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I suppose that did happen but once you’d got them you’d got them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They formed part of your crew and —
DK: Can you remember which OTU you were at?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or where it was?
BM: Number 6.
DK: Number 6.
BM: Silloth.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Carlisle.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And you see Coastal Command flying Wellingtons I never told you that had I? Anyway, you didn’t have a lot of choice it was a, we were Wellingtons —
DK: So you were, you were literally posted to a Coastal Command OTU.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. It wasn’t until that point we’d got away from being trained as [pause] Oh yes it was. Of course, it was because we had to do a conversion course as pilots from singles.
DK: Right.
BM: On to multis, you know. And we did that —
DK: So was this —
BM: Through Oxfords and —
DK: Was it a bit of a shock then that you weren't going to be the fighter pilot? You were going to be put on bombers?
BM: Well, I mean everybody —
DK: Or larger aircraft.
BM: Everybody realised that basically the fighter’s war was over. I mean a lot of the lads were lost. By that stage of the war they were then getting they were wanting bombers.
DK: Right.
BM: Fighter bombers. They did want fighter aircraft but more or less working in safety situations.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Really, you know guarding other bombers and being —
DK: Not being, not being offensive then.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. Not —
DK: So you met your crew then. What did you think of them personally? Did you, were they a good crew?
BM: You know there’s a more reliable statistic.
DK: You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to [laughs] I can soon turn the recorder off.
BM: I think that’s the easiest way.
DK: If you want to something [laughs] Ok. Fair enough.
BM: Yeah. You get, you get a mixed bunch really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: You’re bound to do and there weren’t many crews and I did know one that, there was one crew which they, all of them seemed to be smashing fellas.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, they really were and they all appeared to know their job. But they were very decent fellas. But you see you got such a mixed bag. I mean, we had an Australian navigator for instance. We had a, a second pilot who was a Cockney. A Londoner. Another one who was a Cockney who was a wireless op/air gunner. We had a radio, w/op from Belfast. They were from all over the blooming place you know. They were such a mixed bag. Well, you usually used to find that people coming from similar areas you know would gel —
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: A lot better. You know, like two or three northerners for instance.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But again they would stick together. Which may not have been a good thing in some things. It didn’t help mix everybody up but they were. Anyway, we did that. I had one little incident where we was a little bit alarming in the course of doing this. Way out in the Atlantic there’s a little rock. Nothing else. It’s an island made of rock and seagulls and it’s called Rockall.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: It was quite a long way out in the Atlantic and it was used as a navigation training exercise.
DK: Right.
BM: You had to, a good training point for the navigator because he was the one who was responsible for it. Make sure you got to the right point and you, and you had to photograph it because we all carried a big —
DK: Prove you’d been there.
BM: So to prove that we’d actually been there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Some would say, ‘Well, yes, we got there boss.’ Alright. No, you had to prove that you’d actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we got a little bit under fuel, the shortish side and we came back and we knew we weren’t going to get back home so everybody, well the navigator sketching out as fast as he could the nearest convenient place that we could get down on and we got down. We came in to land off the coast of Scotland. A little place called Port Ellen. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it but —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: All they’d got there was a few sheep. Didn’t even keep any aircraft there. It was an emergency place for anybody who was in trouble for any reason and then there was a hut in there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We, we put in there for the night. We got refuelled. Had a night there listening to the flaming sheep bleating all night [laughs] And then we filled up and went off again the next morning. But it, it can be a bit hairy being out in the sea there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It would be a bit wet if you —
DK: Finding out you were running low on fuel.
BM: If you didn't make it. You get back. You quite a long way to come at that point down the West Coast of Scotland around the sort of northern tip of Ireland.
DK: Right.
BM: And then came in and up to Solway Firth.
DK: Yeah. So was, was it at the OTU then you first flew the Wellington?
BM: Oh yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: You wouldn’t get any opportunity to fly it before then.
DK: No. So that was —
BM: That was the first time you ever flew as a, as a crew.
DK: As a crew. So how did you feel about the Wellington then because it was quite a bigger aircraft than you'd been used to up until then?
BM: Oh, yeah. Well, they were actually discarded ones from the, that had been on bombing.
DK: Right.
BM: So you could imagine that they —
DK: So they were a bit rough.
BM: They were a bit rough alright. One particular occasion we were doing a training exercise and we came in and landed and we’d no brakes at all. We couldn't. There were no way we were going to pull up before we’d go through somebody's chimney and we came down towards the end of the runway and all you could do was accelerate a lot.
DK: Right.
BM: On one side. I think it was on the portside and swing it around. Nothing to hold it back on the other side, you know. You was —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then eventually you’d run out of steam but if anybody got in your way it was really awkward but they were such a clapped out blooming aircraft. They really were but they weren't as bad as we had on in many respects as we got on Ferry Command. There were some dodgy ones.
DK: So from the OTU then were you then posted to an operational squadron?
BM: No.
DK: Right.
BM: We did the, we did the OTU and then we got, we got sent back. We got sent to Haverfordwest.
DK: Right. OK.
BM: So that was one end of the country to the other nearly and we got down to Haverford West and it's a long way down there you know to Haverfordwest in those days because you had to come to London.
DK: Oh right.
BM: Out of London and then oh —
DK: Then back out again.
BM: Blooming heck. Anyway, we got down to, and we were just getting off the train down at Haverfordwest Station. A little old station down there and there were some MPs out on the platform. ‘What's gone wrong now?’ And they were giving us out forty eight hour leave pass and a warrant for the train.
DK: Right.
BM: They said, ‘Well, you've got forty eight hours leave.’ And we’d just come all that blooming way from God knows where. So I had to get back on the train, back to London, back up, well to Newark as far as I was concerned. Two lads were able to get off at London because they came from London.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But, and another lad, I’m moving on a little bit but we came back. Got back to Newark and I actually walked home to my wife. She wasn't my wife then. My fiancé. Just down the street here. I walked home from Newark station.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Quite a fair old walk. Got in at 8:00 o'clock in the morning. I walked in and said, ‘If you want to get married we're going to get married tomorrow.’ And that’s the first —
SM: He did. Yeah.
BM: It was the first she ever knew about it. We never discussed it but —
DK: That’s the way to do it.
BM: And I was —
SM: Yeah, but you knew you were going to be posted dad, didn’t you? You knew you were going to be posted away at that stage.
BM: Oh, aye. I know. Anyway, we fixed this up we were, we were going to get married. Well, a lot of pandemonium and all the rest of it. We had at that stage my wife’s house. In those days it happened quite a bit where you got service people were billeted —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: On somebody who had substantial accommodation. My wife was a farmer's daughter so they considered that they had enough square space to accommodate a couple of senior officers and they had a Wing Commander —
DK: Right.
BM: Who was the CO of the engineering outfit. Engineering officer at 5 Group.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: On Lancasters. And he was billeted up there. I used to get along with him like a house on fire. I didn't call him Bill and Fred and all the rest of it but, and this he treated me you know with respect and of course I did him. I mean a senior officer. And he said, my wife and the family were obviously going down to Nottingham to do some shopping. He said, ‘I'll take you to Newark.’ I mean, I had a wing commander, you know, I said, ‘Oh, my God.’ And he took them all off to catch the train at Newark Station. All the way there apparently because I wasn’t there, all the way there he was trying to persuade her all the time, ‘Now, are you sure you want to get married? You’re a bit young,’ and all this, that and the other, you know. She said, ‘Yes, we’re getting married.’ She wasn't twenty one of course, I wasn't either and anyway off they went to Nottingham and they came back and it was arranged that we would meet the officer and train and he got back to the train. And then of course in the meantime I think it was realised we didn't have a licence to get married and they’d got forty eight hours. So, and Saturday was already on its way. They kept the train waiting on Collingham Station while they went and hunted out my mother and my wife's mother to get their written permissions —
DK: Right.
BM: On the, on the licence application to be able to get married. So I went to, all the passengers on the train were enjoying this bit of drama. So I did that and then we carried on on the train. I went up to Newark. To Lincoln trying to, of course this was late in the day. This was teatime to get the rest of the particulars and we had to get a licence. Seven and sixpence and of course it was sod’s law it was Saturday and these sort of bods don’t work on Saturdays. But we went and hunted them up my sister and me and we got this blooming chap. Registrar of births, deaths and marriages. He was very good actually. We got him fairly late on in the evening and I said, ‘Well, I’m going abroad in a couple of days.’ I mean, this was happening all the time obviously.
DK: I was going to say I imagine it so—
BM: And he was, he was —
DK: It was quite common.
BM: So he fixed us up with a licence. Seven and six pence and that was, that was that. We got married the next day on the Sunday.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d got the vicar primed. There were no banns. Nothing like that. And my wife did a wedding breakfast. Wonderful for her. There were sixty people there present. All these had been notified in the previous twenty four hours.
DK: Yeah.
BM: My own father didn’t know, you know. I thought we’d better ring him up and tell him his son is going to get married. Anyway, we got married and had a sort of wedding breakfast and then off we went to Nottingham for a honeymoon and we came back on the Tuesday morning and we were back to London and back to Haverfordwest and that was our wedding. And two and a half years later I saw my wife.
DK: Right. So you did know you were about to be posted overseas then at this point did you?
BM: We did but we didn’t know —
DK: Where?
BM: Until actually we were on the train on the station.
DK: Right.
BM: At Haverfordwest.
DK: Right.
BM: We didn’t know.
DK: And that’s why you got the forty eight hours leave then.
BM: Yeah, we had the forty eight hour leave pass.
DK: [unclear] leave. Right.
BM: They didn’t give you much did they?
DK: No.
BM: Forty eight hours and —
DK: You had, you had no idea where you were going. Just that you were going overseas.
BM: Just that we were going.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. And of course, a certain number of days and you were back. So —
DK: Can I just ask what rank were you at this time because you mentioned you —
BM: Oh, I was an air marshal or something like that, I think. I was a Sergeant.
DK: So you were a flight Sergeant then at that time.
BM: He’s there look.
DK: Ah. Oh right.
BM: That’s me. Good looking fellow wasn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, the woman was a good looking girl.
DK: Good looking lady.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you were a flight Sergeant at that point then.
BM: Well —
DK: Sergeant. Yeah.
BM: I suppose so. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you’d gone back to Haverfordwest so you're now going overseas. So where did you —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Where did you go then?
BM: But we didn't know where.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They didn't give you a lot of information out and they said, ‘Well, you will be taking a new aircraft to Morocco.’
DK: Oh right.
BM: Rabat in Morocco. So we had to fly —
DK: And this was a Wellington was it?
BM: That was a Wellington. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Brand new. And of course what happens next? We were waiting for this and somebody went and smashed it up. They were doing an air test on it and smashed it up so they held us back. Not very long. Three or four days or something like that they kept us back. Until another one became available.
DK: Right.
BM: We got that. Took it down to Southampton and gave us all the instructions to get it to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: Which was a circuitous route to say the least because we had to go out to, we had to try and avoid France.
DK: France. Yeah. Spain.
BM: Spain. Portugal. All the, because we hadn't any ammunition.
DK: Right.
BM: They sent us out with his blooming brand new Wellington. We got all the guns we needed on it.
DK: [unclear]
BM: But there were no ammunition. We’d no ammunition because we had to load the thing up with as much fuel as you could get.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, you needed all that. You couldn't be wasting space on bullets.
DK: Right.
BM: And but allowing though if you happened to see a few Focke Wulfs come on you, on your tail but anyway we flew through the night and it would be —
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco then or —
BM: Did we —?
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco or stop on the way?
BM: No. We flew, oh sorry we flew direct from Southampton. We went out over the Channel Islands.
DK: Right.
BM: And we were alright being fairly closer in to France but we never went over any, any land.
DK: You didn't stop at Gibraltar or anywhere.
BM: No. No.
DK: You went all the way to Morocco.
BM: No. We didn't. We very nearly did but it was accidental. We came in towards, we thought, the navigator thought we’d got to Gibraltar and we did and then we suddenly realised Jesus better get out of this or else. They were a bit handy with the, with the loose cannon you know if they didn't have proper warning.
DK: Oh right. You weren't expected.
BM: Turn around quick.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And head out to sea to get a few miles behind us and then we went down, turned to port again and went further down across Northern Africa.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Morocco to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: From, that’s where we parked the plane and —
DK: So were you officially with the squadron now?
BM: No.
DK: Oh right.
BM: No. We were in transit.
DK: Ok.
SM: You had an incident didn’t you when you landed?
BM: We were, well actually it was rather interesting. We knew we were, we were getting dangerously short. We were living, or were flying on fumes pretty well.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Jesus. Keep paddling on and we got, we actually came in to land and we looked down and we ran out of fuel. It was cutting it a bit fine but the coincidental part of this was that a corporal came out in a little fifteen hundred weight truck to the end of the runway. We couldn’t get any further unless somebody was going to push us and he said, ‘What’s the problem?’ We’d no fuel and I looked at him and bloody hell. I went to school with him.
DK: Yeah?
BM: Yeah.
DK: The corporal who had just pulled up?
BM: I went past his, he was a farmer’s son.
DK: How strange.
BM: I went past it yesterday funnily enough. At Leverton. And he was, he was there, he wasn’t there but I don’t know whether their still, the family are still there now up to this day or, I don’t know.
DK: Did you both immediately recognise one another then?
BM: Oh aye. He recognised me and I recognised him because you’ve got to bear in mind that.
DK: Strange.
BM: This was in 1942.
DK: Right.
BM: Would it be? No. It was ’43. The end of ’43. We’d have not been from school long either him or me, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It weren’t, we weren’t talking sort of years back so we hadn’t got to remember far back and he was, he was at school with us and there he was.
DK: How strange.
BM: Shepherding aircraft at this, on this blooming runway at Rabat. Anyway, we parked the plane up there and then we got instructions to move on via American transport plane I think.
DK: Right.
BM: We went sort of down the coast of Morocco and Algeria. We went to, stopped at an American aerodrome at Algeria and it was all sort of in transit.
DK: Right.
BM: And from there we moved around again and we moved across to Italy. To the heel of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Taranto. What were we talking about?
DK: Right.
BM: Yeah. No, it’s Taranto isn’t it? Right down in the coast. Grottaglie they called it.
DK: So, what were your thoughts about North Africa then when you got there and —?
BM: North Africa?
DK: Yeah. What was it, what was it like?
BM: A bit dry [laughs] but we didn’t really see a lot of it. I mean and unfortunately of course in those days we didn’t have much money to go out and buy cameras.
DK: Right.
BM: If we could have got cameras we couldn’t, we couldn’t buy film.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You couldn’t get the blooming stuff. I’ve got very few aircraft, very few photographs taken really of wartime and that sort of thing. But anyway we got across to Grottaglie.
DK: So the Americans were flying you across then.
BM: The Americans actually you see they landed on the west coast of Africa.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they attacked it from —
DK: Operation Torch.
BM: The west and we were coming up from —
DK: Yeah.
BM: The Tobruk area. And [pause] Montgomery’s lot were meeting with the American.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What was his name? General, was it Mark Clark?
DK: [unclear] Yeah.
BM: Anyway, they went coming from, we were behind the Americans at that stage. They were moving into Africa and we only had to have a couple of spots in our squadrons and there was really no need to have done that if they could have found an aircraft with sufficient bods on it to fill it up to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, to take it to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Exactly where you wanted to be.
DK: So having arrived in Italy then, the heel of Italy are you, had you been allocated to a squadron at this point then?
BM: Yeah. We were on, we were on route right from our transport instructions. Our transport officer right from where we landed in Rabat.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: But then sort of under the control of a transport, you know a designated transport officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And he would just move us on from place to place and we were on 221 Squadron.
DK: Right. And 221, they were, they were flying Wellingtons again I assume.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And they were part of Coastal Command.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or Middle East Air Force.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Coastal Command.
BM: I mean I've never actually been on any other aircraft until I got to Ferry Command.
DK: Right.
BM: It was always, my operations were always on Wellingtons. I did a tour of operations except one.
DK: Right.
BM: I was one short of completing.
DK: Right. So, and these were all from Italy then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: All these operations. So how many operations did you actually do?
BM: I should have done thirty and I did twenty nine.
DK: Right. Ok. So for Coastal Command then what what sort of form did those operations take?
BM: What?
DK: What were you actually doing on those operations for Coastal Command? What was your role as it were?
BM: Well, I suppose to a large extent it was reconnaissance.
DK: Ok.
BM: Shipping and troop movements and that sort of thing. But we always, we carried bombs and guns and pretty well every time we came back we’d line somebody up with a few bombs. But across and Greece —
DK: Right.
BM: Yugoslavia. Albania.
DK: So most of, most of your operations then they were actually were over land.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Rather than over the sea.
BM: Oh Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: There were very little operations actually constantly over water. We were over water but I mean we were, we were attacking, if we knew they were there E-boats and that sort of thing and light armoured boats. We never encountered any heavy stuff.
DK: Right.
BM: And our biggest commercial boats would be about what? Six or seven thousand tonnes?
DK: Right.
BM: They weren’t massive big things you know because they were on basically on, on transport. On coastal transport you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Port to port and that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Right around back by Trieste and Venice and back down the Italian coast but on, on one occasion we went across to Greece. We pretty well got through our designated number of trips to different places. Some of them were interesting, some of them were a bit sharpish but we never flew very high.
DK: No.
BM: We never did any of this twenty, twenty five thousand and stuff for it. If you knocked off the five it would be nearer. We [laughs] we had about —
DK: So what sort of heights were you?
BM: Five. On average about five thousand feet.
DK: Oh right.
BM: So we’d get a good view of what was going off down below. You know when you think about it we did a fair bit of chasing e-boats and that sort of thing. How do you tell a difference between an e-boat and an MTB for instance?
DK: At that, at that height.
BM: When it’s dark.
DK: Yeah. At that height or dark, it would be difficult.
BM: I thought at the time well I’m damned sure that wasn’t a blooming German. I reckon he was a Navy man that we just dropped some stuff on but it happened because we couldn’t tell one from another. If they didn't, if they didn't put up a rocket —
DK: Right.
BM: Or anything to warn us that you know that —
DK: You dropped a bomb.
BM: It’s a wrong place to do it or whatever.
DK: So you didn't have necessarily specific targets you just flew out.
BM: Yeah, and —
DK: Saw what was there and —
BM: Dropping them on, we were taking photographs.
DK: Right.
BM: Of what there was and where because obviously the military ones at that moment and used our own discretion.
DK: Really. So that your main role then was really intelligence.
BM: Basically.
DK: Reconnaissance type of thing.
BM: You know intelligence and reconnaissance.
DK: And if you saw something —
BM: Yeah. And if there was something which was obviously —
SM: Bomb it.
BM: Foreign.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know you would, you’d just line them up. We did this on [unclear] I mean [unclear] is a lovely place to go for a holiday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But not if somebody is dropping some unpleasant stuff on top of you. And it was, it was summertime so short nights and that sort of thing. Getting broad daylight when we left and we came back. You had to bear in mind that nearly every time we went we went on our own.
DK: I was going to ask that. Were you just flying singly?
BM: We didn’t go as part of a group.
DK: Right.
BM: Two at the most.
DK: Right.
BM: You know. There was never big numbers of aircraft involved and we set off from Greece to come home and all of a sudden we were getting [pfft] coming past us [pause] And the rear gunner had said nothing about anybody chasing us or anything like that and we’d got two ME109s coming up behind us giving us a belt up the rear. And they actually shot out the port engine and the fuel. They did the, with doing the engine they did the hydraulics because the flaps, the undercarriage, the guns, everything was driven by that port engine.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: With hydraulics.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if they did that that was goodbye Mary and they shot all this lot up and we ended up without any flaps, without any guns really, and we before we even knew anything was happening to us. You know there were guns, bullets were coming into us before we realised what damage was being done. Anyway, we put one engine out. Had to do. Stopped it so we were lucky the other one didn’t stop as well because the fuel was, you know floating backwards and forwards between one engine and another. But the, we had a, an American Marauder.
DK: Right.
BM: I don’t know whether you’ve ever —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They were one of the early tricycle undercarriages.
BM: Yeah. Twin engine plane.
DK: Fighter bomber.
BM: Yeah.
BM: Twin engine thing. But the Americans apparently didn’t like them because they were stuffed full of guns. They’d guns coming out of them in all directions.
SM: You mean the Germans didn’t like them.
BM: But they were —
SM: Yeah.
BM: Very strongly armed.
SM: Yeah.
BM: And he’d seen this because there had been a number of aircraft had been on this exercise and he’d seen it so he told us afterwards and he came up and the, these two 109s didn’t hang about then. They don’t like Marauders because Marauders have got .5 guns on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were all 303s which were like a, like a blooming peashooter. Anyway, the [pause] he came up with us. We’d no radio. Couldn’t talk to each other so he got busy flashing with his aldis lamp.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What the hell was he talking about? It was a job to understand what was, what was going backwards and forwards. Anyway, the gist of it was, ‘Are you ok?’ You know. Well, fortunately we were very fortunate indeed the navigator had just been nicked a bit but other than that nobody else got hurt and ok, so we carried on and eventually we got back to Bari, on the coast of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: We headed for the nearest one that we could likely to get down at and it happened to be an American occupied station.
DK: Station. Yeah.
BM: And it’s only got a shortish runway on it and we came in to land on one engine, flaps down, undercarriage down. You’re not supposed to fly on, ought to be able to fly on one engine with all the hydraulics down. It won’t do it and it did. And we came around over the harbour nearly taking the masks off some ships which were in the harbour. It was really close to because you can’t do an overshoot with a lot of space. We came around again and came in a little bit slower and I think we were sort of trying to make sure that we got in the first time but we didn’t because we were halfway down the runway we were still airborne on a short runway. We tried to get around again and we got in. We came in to land low, lower and a little bit slower and we came in and damn me we put down and both tyres had been shot out and we didn’t know it. You can’t tell when you’re flying the blooming thing.
DK: No.
BM: If you looked out of the, you know but you weren’t bloody looking out and doing a bit of window gazing but both tyres and damage to the aircraft. Both tyres had been, we were told this when we got down but it was too late then because we’d no radio. You couldn’t, you know they couldn’t talk to us which was unfortunate and strangely enough when we came in the second time there were several blood waggons, ambulances, fire engines and that sort of thing lined up on the side of the runway so they were expecting somebody to have a bit of a bump. And the American, and as we came past where they were parked up on the end we could actually hear them. I could hear these, these blood waggons. You know they started up [whirr] As we were going down the runway they were behind us and of course the aircraft just went [pfft] That was it. The tyres were a bit empty. So it rather, apart from other damage that had been done by the bullets and that sort of thing it smashed it up a little bit.
DK: Did it remain on the undercarriage or did you —
BM: No. It collapsed.
DK: It had collapsed. Right. Ok.
BM: Yeah. You know, with flat tyres —
DK: Yeah.
BM: It does tend to do that.
DK: Yeah. It collapses on to the belly of the aircraft.
BM: Yeah. On to the rims.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then I think the wheels went so we didn’t stop to hang about and have a look. Anyway, our CO —
DK: So you were all, you were all ok then when you got out.
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah. We got out as fast as we could get out. Get the lid open and get out and let them sort it out.
DK: Was the aircraft on fire at this point? Or —
BM: Well, I expected it to be.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But I realised that it was unlikely because you could smell petrol. It was unlikely to happen.
DK: Still didn’t want to hang around though did you?
BM: Because they were right behind us.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, they were going as fast as we were down the runway so, and a number of them as well. They’d got foam. I got hit with the blooming foam, with some foam as I was getting out. I didn’t mind that but couldn’t get out the top. Anyway, our CO he got in touch with the authorities on this aerodrome and he said, ‘I’ll come and fetch you.’ So he came down in his Wellington to pick us up. Oh, I didn’t tell you we’d moved up to Foggia.
DK: Yeah.
BM: From Grottaglie. Only on a sort of a temporary posting. We weren’t there many weeks because it was nearer a target point of view from Foggia than it was from Grottaglie. It was halfway up the country.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And the Army were just moving further up. They’d got up to Rome and were moving slowly up. So we got moved back again to Grottaglie after that but we went back, they flew us back to Foggia. We’d one more operation to do to complete a full tour of operations and they gave us a weeks leave. A bit odd but I wasn’t going to turn it down because we, it was a weeks leave. There was a pass but we had to make our own way, our own transport. We had to hitch it. Oh, I am, I’m so sorry. Would you like a cup of tea or a cup of coffee?
DK: No. I’m fine thank you. Yeah.
BM: Really?
DK: Seriously I’m fine.
BM: I’m sorry about that.
DK: No. Don’t worry.
BM: My wife —
DK: I had one before I came out.
BM: My wife’s got dementia but, she’s very very deaf as well. She likes to keep out of the way. Very difficult for her.
DK: Ok.
BM: Anyway, we hitched across the country from Foggia to Sorrento and of course the roads were up, the bridges were up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Italy is a country with a lot of bridges and a lot of rivers at [pause] We got there. We got to Sorrento eventually. Had a weeks leave. A lovely place Sorrento and [pause] have you ever been?
DK: I have. Yes. Yes. A few years ago.
BM: Been up in the Blue Grotto?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Lovely place.
DK: Yes.
BM: To go swimming there. Anyway, same sort of trip back and after a week got back to Foggia and we were, at that point we were billeted in tents. We were always in tents. All the time I was in Italy we were always in tents and we were in amongst a lot of grape vines. You know everywhere there was blooming just coming, just coming eatable.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, barely eatable really. They were still very green and I got a lot of diarrhoea. Not a good thing to be flying an aeroplane when you’ve got diarrhoea.
DK: No.
BM: At all. Anyway, we —
SM: Was it your navigator that did the same thing?
BM: No. No. I was, I was the only one who got —
SM: Right.
DK: Diarrhoea.
BM: The wireless op got a bad cold but I don’t think the others were affected really. In fact, I never even saw them eating grapes. They maybe thought they were too sour. They really were very sour. They weren’t ready. They weren’t ripe. I got this and I had to go to the MO because we were down to — [ chiming clock] — Shut up you. It did you see when you talk to them right, you know.] And I had to go to see the MO because we were all down for an operation that night. The last one. I said, ‘I’m not fit to fly. I can’t fly. I’ve got the screamers. No good at all.’ He said, ‘Right. I’ll stand you down.’ And the wireless op said, well he’d got a very bad cold and he weren’t fit. You can’t use oxygen or anything like that when you were —
DK: No.
BM: It was unfortunate. So we stood down and got a replacement pilot and wireless op. Sent them off. They went off and that was it. I never saw them again.
SM: They didn’t come back.
DK: So all of your twenty nine operations then they were all with 221 Squadron.
BM: 221.
DK: Right.
BM: And that was it.
DK: And that was, the twenty ninth was the only time you were attacked by another aircraft then.
BM: That was all. Yeah. This was all due to being attacked by these —
DK: Yeah.
BM: FW 190s coming back from Greece. It all developed from that.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So, so at that point you’ve come back to the UK have you? Or —
BM: After that?
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. I finished and it was obvious they couldn’t trace the aircraft. That was the main thing. They were trying to trace it and there was no trace of it whatsoever and in fact, I’ve got a letter from the, from the War Office Records saying that extensive searches had been done for this aircraft and there was no sight or sound or record of where it was. What had happened to it.
DK: So this was the aircraft you should have flown on then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: And and the rest of your crew were —
BM: All down there.
DK: So —
BM: So there was two of us alive.
DK: Right. So your crew went out with a different pilot and a different —
BM: Different wireless op.
DK: Wireless operator.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And they were just never seen again.
BM: And they were never seen again.
SM: Maybe they were lucky grapes.
BM: How lucky can you be?
DK: Yeah.
BM: But another thing I’ve never mentioned either was that the air gunner went home on a forty eight hour leave when I did.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Same thing. He got married the same weekend, on the Sunday. Never saw his wife again.
DK: Right.
BM: After he went back.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: After the forty eight hour leave was up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He went back and that was it.
DK: So as the —
BM: That was the length, sorry, that was the length of his marriage.
DK: Yeah. Blimey.
BM: One weekend.
DK: So at this point you, you knew then that the rest of your crew was missing.
BM: Yeah. And in fact, their names are inscribed on the War Memorial at Malta.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And also at Runnymede.
DK: Runnymede.
BM: So the Middle East Air Force run the Malta one. I don’t know why this was done twice but I had no control over it. That’s where it is. I haven’t seen it at Malta but I have seen it at Runnymede.
DK: Do you know where they were flying too? What the operation was to or [pause] When they went missing?
BM: Yes. I do. I do. I’ve got it on a letter. I’ll give it to you in a minute.
SM: Ok.
BM: Will you go and fetch it for me, Simon? If you would. It’s in the kitchen. In a red book.
SM: Ok.
BM: On the table.
[recording paused]
BM: So we’d some, interesting I suppose is not quite the right word.
DK: You didn’t know this other pilot then that they flew out with.
BM: I’d never met him before in my life.
DK: No.
BM: I didn’t know who he was but he took my place and if he’d been a regular crew member —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Thank you. Thank you.
[pause]
BM: So, after that of course I was without a crew and they [pause] they sent me back to Egypt.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by train down to Taranto. Then by boat. Came by boat over the water to [pause] I think it was Alexandria we came to.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And from there I went and did another OTU. Started that again with another new crew in Palestine.
DK: Wellingtons again.
BM: Wellingtons again.
DK: Again. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I tried to get a transport, a transfer on to Hurricanes.
DK: Right.
BM: I wanted to go back to —
DK: Fighters.
BM: Fly the [pause] But they wouldn’t let me. Actually, I’ve started doing a bit of a journal. Memoirs. There’s still a lot to do at it but —
SM: Yeah. I‘ve given David, it’s just a brief summary of that.
BM: I’ve got about, I was hoping to include about fifty photographs. Yeah. I must tell you this that my father did a memoirs.
DK: Right.
BM: In the First World War and he actually won a Military Medal and a Military Cross.
DK: Oh Right.
BM: On the Somme.
DK: Right.
BM: He got a Military Medal as a corporal at a place called [unclear]
SM: [unclear]
BM: Eh?
SM: [unclear]
BM: Oh, was it?
SM: Yeah.
BM: His French is better than mine. And then a year later he was back on the —
SM: No, it wasn’t a year dad. It was two years later.
BM: Two?
SM: Yeah. He got his first one in 1916.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: As —
DK: As a corporal.
SM: As a corporal.
BM: Yeah. Corporal.
SM: And —
BM: He got commissioned in the field.
SM: And then he went to Italy and he came back. Within a mile of where he won his first medal he won the second one —
BM: He got, he got —
SM: As an officer.
BM: No, he got a Military Cross.
DK: [unclear]
BM: And he was an officer then.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: He won the Military Medal and the Military Cross.
SM: He was lucky to survive.
BM: Yes. And he wrote at the age of eighty five something like this.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Well you’re ninety three and you’re doing —
BM: In fact, its yonder on that stool Simon. By the looks of it.
SM: Have you found that letter yet?
[pause]
BM: Look at that fella.
SM: I know. Are you looking for a particular letter dad?
[pause]
BM: There you are. Look. “Christmas Greetings and good wishes from the Royal Air Force Middle East.”
DK: Middle East. 1944.
BM: 1944. I’m looking for this blooming letter [pause] I’ve got it somewhere.
SM: Well, do you want me to look for it while you carry on chatting?
[pause – rustling papers]
BM: That’s your mother.
SM: Yeah. Let me have a look, dad while you carry on talking.
BM: There’s a, there’s a, there’s a letter from the —
SM: The War Ministry.
BM: Yeah.
SM: Let’s have a look then.
BM: Whether I’ve got it in the right book.
SM: Maybe not.
BM: Might be another one.
SM: Let’s have a look.
DK: So you’re at, so going back you’re now in Palestine.
BM: Oh I went to Palestine.
DK: You’re back in Palestine with another OTU.
BM: Hello.
SM: Hello mother.
DK: So you’re getting another crew together at this point then are you?
BM: We got that and when that course was complete we we went down from Port Tewfik at the end of the Suez Canal down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: In a troop ship. A lovely quiet gentle journey that was. We enjoyed that. The best part of the war up to that point and I learned to play Bridge as well.
DK: Oh right.
BM: The three fellas could play Bridge and they wanted a fourth. I could play cards but I couldn’t play Bridge. I’d never played Bridge. Anyway, right. Three days then. Very enjoyable. We got to Aden and then I got sent from Aden by Dakota, had to get up to Aden and then go up in a Dakota to a little island called Masirah which is just short of the Persian Gulf.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s up the Indian Ocean off the coast of Oman just before you go around the corner and go up the Gulf. That was 244 Squadron.
DK: Right.
BM: And we posted there and we got basically the same sort of job. Shipping reconnaissance in dhows, you know [laughs] you know, watching for smuggling but fortunately they didn’t shoot back at us.
DK: How many trips did you make with 244 Squadron then?
BM: I only did four.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: And then that was it.
DK: Right.
BM: Because the way that came about I got a rather nasty dose of sinus. I’d been in Palestine, and in hospital in Palestine rather, in Tel Aviv. I had about ten days in hospital with sinus. I used to get it pretty badly but anyway I had another dose and got to Queen Elizabeth Hospital In Aden and it was a thousand miles from where I was in Masirah to Aden and they laid on especially converted Wellington again to fly from Masirah down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: Especially laid on to take me a thousand miles.
DK: Oh right.
BM: And I was in there again ten days in this hospital and when I was better I had a call to the adjutant and he said, ‘I’ve got some good news and some bad news for you.’ He said, ‘Which do you want first?’ I said, ‘I’d better have the bad news first.’ He said, ‘Your squadron’s being disbanded.’
DK: This was 244. Yeah.
BM: He said, ‘Its just been disbanded,’ and he said, ‘You’ve been posted. You been posted to 36 Ferry Unit in [ Allahabad ] in India.’
DK: Right.
BM: And he said, ‘Your crew has been disbanded. Gone.’ They had apparently gone back to Cairo. To Egypt apparently. And he said, ‘The good news is you’ve been promoted to warrant officer.’ I said, ‘Oh well.’ Which do you want first? [laughs]
DK: So you were sent then to 36 Ferry Unit.
BM: So I got posted to 36 Ferry Unit.
DK: Right. Based in India.
BM: From the hospital in Aden. I didn’t go back to Masirah.
DK: Right.
BM: Flew straight there.
DK: To India.
BM: To India. Yeah. And I spent the next, what, eighteen months on 36 Ferry Unit in India. That’s alright because we didn’t spend much time at our own base. We were all over the place. You know, you’d maybe get sent back to Cairo or Heliopolis or —
DK: And what sort of aircraft were you ferrying about then?
BM: Well, as it happened I was in Dakotas but not as first pilot. I was the second pilot.
DK: Right.
BM: I was actually on Liberators.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They were four engine.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I liked flying those because in America everything was spot on.
DK: So you, while you were with the Ferry Unit then you were always as a second pilot.
BM: Not always as second pilot.
DK: Pilot. Yeah.
BM: It all depended on the availability of people to fly any particular —
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Aircraft. And their ability to fly in any particular aircraft.
DK: So the Liberator was the first four engined aircraft that you flew.
BM: They were the first four engine that I flew. Yeah.
DK: And what did you think of the Liberators?
BM: For many things I liked them. They didn’t have the, they didn’t have the power that Lancasters and Halifaxes would have on two engines. You’ve got two engines you could nearly say well it’s goodbye Mary. They didn’t have, if you’d got any weight on at all you’d no chance.
DK: Right.
BM: But —
DK: So were you delivering new aircraft for the units then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: That was our main job was taking, moving new aircraft from MUs, service delivery points.
DK: Yeah.
BM: To say we’d go down to Ceylon with a new one and bring an old one back to Calcutta. Now that was all very well but some of these aircraft had never flown for several weeks or even months but stood out in the hot Indian sun didn’t do them a lot of good.
DK: Right.
BM: And [good morning. She keeps coming and having a look at us.] We had, early 1946 we had a stop put on Mosquitoes. I never actually flew a Mosquito. I always wanted to do but I never got the opportunity to. And there were two instances apparently where wings had fallen off. They reckoned it was because of the extreme heat that they’d been subjected to.
DK: Yeah. Like the glue.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And they were just stationed. Sat there in the sun and it subjected to a bit of extreme, you know, if they were doing a bit of manoeuvring and that sort of thing perhaps. A bit of extra strain on them. I don’t know what the reason was but anyway apparently two aircraft wings fell off and they put a stop on all movement of Mosquitoes.
DK: So at the war’s end then you’re in India still ferrying —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Aircraft about.
BM: Yeah. I mean the war ended, what was it? May 1945.
DK: Yeah.
SM: You’ve not mentioned about meeting up with your brother have you? While you were in India.
BM: Sorry?
SM: You’ve not mentioned about dad’s brother —
DK: Right.
SM: He was in the Army.
DK: Right.
SM: Flew out to, was it [Jahalabad] and you, he got him to impersonate RAF personnel. So he was, he stayed a week with my father.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And he was flying different aircraft all through the week. In fact, my father, this is my uncle told me that he went with dad was it on the Friday and were you in a Liberator at that time?
BM: Yeah.
SM: Dad took off and everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: My Uncle Robin was next to him and dad said, ‘Right. Ok. You can take over now.’ He said, ‘Just follow the Nile.’ And they all went back in to the back to play cards.
BM: Well, they did —
SM: And this was an Army officer.
BM: They needed the experience.
SM: Oh, he’d flown that week with different people.
DK: Oh, that’s ok then [laughs]
SM: And he was impersonating an RAF. He’s not flying a four engine aircraft.
BM: He’d just been promoted. He’d done a course as a promotion from an NCO.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He was a sergeant then to a second lieutenant and he came and had this week with me at Karachi because I wasn’t very well. Not Karachi. At [Allahabad] and I couldn’t do a lot in those days but he, we finished up with several different trips in different aeroplanes. Dakotas and Corsairs, Liberators.
DK: So you put him in Air Force uniform as well then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. We dressed him up as a navigator. Well, it made it easier you see as we were walking around the aerodrome. He didn’t get stopped. If you were a young Army officer they’d say, ‘What are you doing?’
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if you were a navigator he could walk in the mess and go and have meals and everything. It was —
DK: Wasn’t his own unit missing him or —
BM: Was he?
DK: Was his own unit missing him at all?
SM: He was on leave wasn’t he?
DK: On leave.
SM: That’s what was commented in the first instance his brother I know it was a big place.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Where everybody was flying in and flying out from but —
DK: Obviously, [unclear]
SM: This always amuses me. My father has told me this but he hadn’t told me the bit about the playing at cards bit and its only until I saw my uncle Robin a few months ago.
DK: Yeah.
SM: That he told me the other side of the story. That on this one occasion he went up with my father.
BM: That’s life isn’t it?
DK: Oh yeah.
SM: He said, he was trying to fly this four engine bomber.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Because, he said during the week he’d been flying two engine ones which manoeuvred a lot easier and he said he was all over the sky with this four engine because every movement he made was so slow.
BM: ’Keep, keep it level. What the hell are you playing at?’
SM: Yeah. Dad came back and said, ‘Oh, that was a rough ride.’ [laughs] But you know at that age you think bloody hell. The risks they took. Yeah. Didn’t give a damn.
BM: He enjoyed it. The little incident though that took place while he was there. Our CO, we had a bit of a scheme where good watches were in short supply. You know, you couldn’t just go and pick up a nice —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega watch or something like. A decent watch and he had a scheme where just once a year he would raffle off half a dozen. I don’t know whether the the NAAFI part of job organised the thing. They bought a half a dozen Omega watches.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega, you know were decent watches and he’d buy these and he would raffle them off. Well, anybody who wanted to go in the raffle it didn’t matter whether they were an officer, NCO, whatever they were they could put their names down and have it drawn it out and you’d get to get, you had to pay proper price for them but at least you had the privilege of getting one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was even difficult to do that. So my brother Robin and myself both put our names down for a blooming watch and damn me if we didn’t get one. Out of six watches and hundreds of people who actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Put their names down for to get the raffle he and me got one.
SM: You both got one.
BM: Both got one.
BM: And we’ve still have them today.
BM: You still have them. Oh wow.
BM: I don’t use mine but the last time I had it it was it was going but it was losing a lot of time and he said he’d still got his.
DK: Oh right.
SM: I didn’t know that.
BM: That was 1946.
DK: Right.
BM: And they’re still going. Omega watches.
DK: You might just need it serviced.
SM: Yeah. I’ll get dad to do that.
DK: It would be worth doing.
SM: Yeah. It’s worth doing for nostalgia, isn’t it?
DK: Exactly. Yeah.
BM: I ought to write to them.
DK: Yeah. Hopefully a watch —
BM: I might get a free watch from them.
SM: We’ll get that sorted.
BM: Yeah. I’d do well to get a free watch didn’t we? We got two of them. Not one. We’ve got two circulating. I’ll tell you what though. A little tale of it it just reminded just recently Lord Mountbatten was Viceroy of India of course and we used to hear about him circulating and different things and on one occasion he came as a trip of inspection. He came to our unit to inspect not just us I mean we were only a very small unit and we got a, unless actually in Charingi in Park Street in Calcutta probably about twice as big as this room and that was it but it was ours and you know it was a very quiet little place. Anyway, he came to visit us on this particular occasion and he flew in, he had this own private Dakota. He flew in and a guard of honour was all out there on the Parade Ground there and called them to attention inspecting them and away he went. Job done. Half an hour later another one flew in. Another Dakota. Looked like an identical aircraft and it was his wife, Lady Mountbatten. She flew into this. Have you heard this tale before? I should doubt it. Anyway, she flew in and the same thing. Got the same guard of honour. Three rows of troops all out there, sort of thing and she inspected the first row and as she walked down the second row her lady in waiting walking at the back of her with our CO at the side of her and she suddenly bent down and picked up something and dropped it in her handbag and carried on down the next row and back. At the end of the third row off she went. The lady in waiting. Nicholas.
SM: Her pants had dropped off.
[laughter]
SM: She never batted an eyelid from what dad said.
BM: It’s true this is. She, she actually walked off that parade ground knickerless. Well, we’d have had a titter about it and her lady in waiting there I don’t know what [laughs] I was too far to see. I saw it happen. There was a few of us there who were watching the parade but we didn’t know actually, I couldn’t prove it was a pair of knickers that she actually dropped but it was. She’d dropped them off.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: And she never batted an eyelid.
DK: No. Well —
BM: She went up and down those three rows. Never said a word. Funnily enough about two days, three days later the [unclear] got the same incident in mind and I happened to be appointed the officer of the guard. All the lads would take it in turns, you know. We’d do a weeks duty. Officer of the guard and that sort of thing and being a warrant officer I had the same job to do as a, as a commissioned officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And as I said there weren’t many of us.
SM: He did turn his commission down by the way.
BM: I called them all, called all the guard to attention and turned around. Saluted the flag. All the guard pulled it down but the blooming thing didn’t shift. I stood looking like a fool looking at it waiting for it and it still didn’t. I looked at the bottom and there was nobody there to pull it down so I said [laughs] I had to turn around and say, ‘Carry on Sergeant.’ And off I went. I had a bit of a red face I can imagine. I had to spend the rest of that week on, on guard duty. Well in charge of the guard every so often. I mean we, we were a bit security conscious.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we used to go shuffling around in a, you know a jeep around the perimeter of the aerodrome and looking at different units seeing that you know they were all at different places out on guard with their rifles.
DK: So, how long were you in India for then?
BM: Well, I left in India in the end of June ’46.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: And I came back.
DK: Back to the UK.
BM: By train to Karachi.
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: And then by boat. I didn’t fly back.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by boat from Karachi. Crossed the India Ocean and the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean and then all the way back to Liverpool.
DK: So did you spend much more time in the Air Force after that or were you demobbed?
BM: No. No. No. You see I was married.
DK: Right.
BM: I had a very quick fire marriage. I got married and it was two and a half years later when I saw my wife.
DK: Yeah. So you left, you left the Air Force at that point.
BM: I left the air force and went to, Cirencester I think was the DPC or the, you know the unit where they disbanded the [pause] I’d had five and a half years in the control of the RAF because I joined up in February 1941.
DK: Right.
BM: And actually I left the control of the RAF in August 1946.
DK: Right. So what did, what did you, what was your career after that then? What were you —
BM: I, well I became actually a retired peasant.
DK: Right [laughs]
SM: He was offered the chance to fly for the Canadian —
DK: Right.
SM: Not the Air Force. The civilian.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Which was a big honour.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: Because everyone wanted to do that.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And mother wouldn’t go out. Not Canadian. Australian.
DK: Australia. What? Qantas.
BM: Qantas.
SM: Yeah. That’s —
DK: Right. Yeah
BM: Yeah.
DK: So you didn’t. You didn’t carry on your flying then after that.
BM: [clock chiming] It’s your fault. Yes. My wife didn’t want me to go and do it. I communicated with her and she said, ‘No.’ I’d been away a long time. ‘You want to come back and get some work done.’ I came back and I joined where I’d left off.
DK: Right.
BM: With my father’s little village business.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: You know, as a —
SM: You did, you did rent a light aircraft for several years though didn’t you? You did fly again. You still flew.
BM: Well, yeah, I got a private pilot’s licence.
DK: Right.
BM: That’s a year. I think he reminded me because he came a time or two and —
DK: So you carried on flying for a few more years then.
BM: Yeah. I did a bit of private flying in an Auster.
DK: Right.
BM: As a friend of mine had kept it up at —
SM: He still has been flying until —
BM: Say what?
SM: I don’t know. The last two or three months.
DK: Oh right.
SM: My son flies.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So he’s still going up then.
SM: He’s still going up.
DK: Excellent.
BM: His his son is all over the blooming place. He went to Le Touquet not very —
SM: He was up in Scotland near Cumbernauld yesterday.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Where?
SM: Cumbernauld. In Scotland. Near Glasgow.
BM: Did he? He’s all over the blooming place his lad.
DK: Ok. Well, I’ll finish there. I think that’s really good. Thanks for that. I’ll just ask one final question. All these years later how do you look back on your time in the RAF? What’s your feelings now?
BM: Well, in some ways obviously there are some regrets. I mean I regret the opportunity to go to Qantas. They reckoned I had the experience, you know in the different aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And this, that and the other. And you know probably capable of doing it. But I didn’t do it and I’ve always regretted that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, talking about the experience. When we were out in India we got a signal from Air Headquarters which was in Delhi. Headquarters for our lot anyway. No. The Far East Headquarters were in Delhi. I got a signal, or my CO did. ‘Warrant Officer Minnitt is to go take the unit Expeditor.’ You know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Twin engine plane. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Lovely aircraft. ‘And go to Delhi, pick up a senior officer and fly him to Munich.’
DK: Right.
BM: Which is a fair old way. Had to fiddle with fuel a time or two but the CO said, ‘You, you can’t do it.’ No. Let’s get this right. The MO said, ‘You can’t do it.’ Because I’d not been very well. But the CO said I could. You know, he said, ‘You can go and do it.’ And as I say we were more or less on personal terms. We were, we were such a small unit.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, little instances crop up from time to time that you think about it but you said, ‘What are your feelings about it?’ Well, I enjoyed my time in the RAF I must admit. There were many instances which was, you might think well they were a bit rough but it happens. I mean one night for instance we, when we were at Grottaglie it was a bombed out hangars aerodrome. No roof or anything like that on them. If we wanted to see a film we had to wait until it was dark and then we would take our own petrol tin, a five gallon petrol tin and that was our seat.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You could sit on that and you could watch a film. It was alright. Better than nothing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were doing that one night and looking at a Wellington take off and it was one of ours and he got to near the end of the runway and he just, he got airborne, he went down again and [pfft] Fully laden. Fully fuelled up. And we ran across to it and all we could find was a boot. Something like that you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: There was nothing. With four thousand pounds of bombs and full tanks you’ve got no choice. And we don’t know why. He just didn’t have enough speed.
DK: He needed to take off.
BM: To get up. And we saw it happen. Just, I mean, these sort of things did happen. That’s part of, I wouldn’t say it was part of life but I mean it, they did happen and there you go. You live with it.
SM: Well one of your very first experiences dad was, if you remember —
BM: Eh?
SM: When you, before you joined up the RAF you joined the [pause]
BM: Oh aye.
SM: Not Dad’s Army. They didn’t call it Dad’s Army then.
BM: I joined the ATC.
DK: The ATC, yeah
BM: Artillery training. Was it auxiliary training?
DK: Air Training Corps.
BM: Something like that. Anyway —
SM: There was an aircraft wasn’t there crashed at Laneham.
BM: Yeah. It did.
SM: And you were the first there. Only as a young man.
DK: Yeah.
BM: This was the, well it was a squadron actually based in Lincoln. What was it? 1265 or something like that. I forget the squadron. And they’d got, they’d got this which I joined and I was in the Home Guard at the time. I was always in blooming uniform. From the Home Guard right from 1940. But a Hampden came around the river at Laneham where I lived and I was talking to one of my, the other side of the road and this big bang and we got on the bike and went to have a look at it and it had come around the river at Laneham very low and didn’t make the bend.
DK: Right.
BM: And it was a Hampden from Scampton. They bunged us in and again that was all little bits and pieces and this pal of mine I mean we went to, we thought we were good you see. We were in uniform. Home Guard. And we went to keep the spectators away from it all.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And all the rest of it and it was still bobbing off fireworks. Bombs, not bombs, bullets kept going off. Aircraft tanks exploding and that sort of thing. It was a right old mess. So eventually the RAF fire brigade turned up and some other I think there were one or two police came and didn’t need us around any longer so we just packed in and came home. But that was my first experience of flesh. Burned flesh. You get used to it you know. It happened from time to time. And so —
DK: Yeah. This this incident then obviously didn’t put you off joining.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Not at all.
DK: No.
BM: I mean, it was rather when that time came we went to what were the new barracks at Lincoln and, ‘What have you come for?’ ‘We’ve come to join up.’ We were seventeen when we did it, he and I. ‘What do you want to join up as?’ ‘An air gunner.’ ‘You want to join as an air gunner. Right.’ Filled in all the paperwork and I don’t know whether it was at that point that I said we actually went to Cardington. You know where they made the old —
DK: Yeah. The airship hangars.
BM: Airships.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And that sort of thing. And we did the actually, the joining procedures. You’ve got the filling in —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Give you your numbers and that sort of thing. My number is nearly 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. It’s 1 2 3 2 3 4 7.
DK: And you still can remember it now.
BM: You see, very close to it. And he said, ‘Well, why don’t you remuster as a pilot?’ and I wonder sometimes wonder why. Why was that?
DK: I find that quite unusual actually because other sort of veterans I’ve spoken to they nearly all wanted to go in as pilots.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But they crashed out for some reason.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And then remustered.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Under a different trade.
BM: Yeah.
DK: It’s unusual to hear somebody —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Who wanted to go in as an air gunner and ended up as a pilot. Yeah.
BM: We thought to be an air gunner you know it was all very glamourous and we were going to shoot them all down. Bang bang bang. They said, well that was, we don’t shoot them down but the, we went the other way. I’ll be honest with you. I left school at fourteen. My education wasn’t wonderful in those days and I finished and that’s basically is the reason why I wasn’t commissioned.
DK: Right.
BM: Because I was, you never found anybody commissioned who hadn’t been to a secondary school at least.
DK: Right.
SM: But didn’t you turn your commission down because you were going to be worse off?
BM: Oh, but that was later. That was when I was out in India. I was offered the opportunity to take a commission. That was in 1945. I thought well the war would be over by the end of this year.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No point in having it because I’m better off now as a warrant officer in the uniform I was wearing. The type of uniform, the perks I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The money I got and I was getting an extra bonus and that sort of thing. I was better off than I was as a flying officer never mind a pilot officer so I, you know I didn’t have any mess fees to pay and all that sort of thing.
DK: So you think then as you left school no qualifications at fourteen the Air Force was good for you in that respect.
BM: It was. It was good for me.
DK: Helped you learn and that —
BM: In that, in that respect. It must have been. I mean, as I say my education was, left a lot to be desired but it was made up in a way with the experiences that I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: In different things and different parts of the world and that sort of thing and that I should never possibly have got in civil life. And I went around the world quite a bit. I mean, I went across the world that way. To Canada. The other side again.
DK: Canada. And then —
BM: Then came back the other way. Right across North Africa. Italy. Middle East. Palestine. Into Aden.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Masirah. India. [Allahabad] and then flying. I did quite a bit of flying into Burma and the war was still on then but places like [Agatara] [unclear] and delivering aircraft in to their places. Into their units and flying their old crap out back to the Mus. We used to go down to Ceylon quite a bit. We enjoyed it. I mean, it was like I just missed out on that opportunity of going to Australia but there we are. These things happen.
DK: Yeah. Ok then. Well, I’ll stop it there I think. Thanks very much for your time. That’s been very interesting. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bruce Minnitt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMinnittPB170314
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:02:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Minnitt served in the Second World War flying Wellingtons on maritime reconnaissance in the Mediterranean and B-24s in India. When war started Bruce joined the Home Guard, and in 1941 when reaching 18 years of age, he enlisted in the Royal Air Force. He actually wanted to be an air gunner but was assessed as suitable for pilot training. His flying training was carried out in Alberta, Canada. After over two years of rationing, he enjoyed the improved diet he received in Canada. Flying in an open cockpit through a Canadian winter was particularly challenging. On his return to Great Britain, he was posted to No. 6 Operational Training Unit near RAF Carlisle to fly Wellingtons. He was then sent to RAF Haverfordwest, from where he was sent on leave for 48 hours before being sent overseas. Arriving home, he proposed, and married by special licence before returning to his unit. It was to be over two years before he saw his wife again. On return to his unit he was tasked with delivering a Wellington to Rabat in Morocco. From here, Bruce joined 221 Sqn in Southern Italy. He flew 29 maritime reconnaissance operations, but before what would have been his final operation, both Bruce and the wireless operator became ill and had to be replaced. His crew failed to return from their final operation. He describes one sortie when his aircraft was attacked by two Me 109s. With no radio or hydraulics, they were forced to divert and upon landing they discovered both main wheels had been damaged. Luckily, the airfield was aware of their plight and were able to dispatch immediate assistance when they crash landed. Allocated with another crew in Egypt, he carried out four further operational flights on 244 Squadron, and following its disbanding, Bruce was posted to 36 Ferry Unit in India. He spent the remainder of the war delivering B-24s to operating units throughout South East Asia. Bruce finally returned in June 1946 and having declined the opportunity to remain a member of the RAF, was subsequently demobbed. Whilst in India, Bruce met up with his brother, a serving army officer who was on leave. By disguising him as a RAF officer, Bruce was able to smuggle him on board to enable him to accompany Bruce on a delivery flight.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Pembrokeshire
England--Cumbria
Mediterranean Sea
India
Canada
Alberta
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Rabat
Italy
Egypt
India
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
221 Squadron
244 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
civil defence
crash
Home Guard
love and romance
Me 109
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Silloth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/POatleyK1701.2.jpg
be795ca0b07853007aa77c562bfeb00c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/AOatleyK170321.1.mp3
9f337a41a3840e6e82e8841355f9d0a1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oatley, Ken
K Oatley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Oatley (b. 1922). He flew operations as a navigator with 627 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Oatley, K
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just introduce myself, so, this is, this is David Kavanagh introduce, interviewing Ken Oatley at his home [file missing] borne, 21st of March 2017. So, I’ll just put that down there.
KO: Surely.
DK: Hang on, If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working
KO: Still functioning,
DK: Still functioning, yeah. It’s, it can be a bit temperamental at times, that looks, that looks ok. [unclear] that. I’ll just like to ask so first of all, what were you doing before the war?
KO: I was going to be a professional violinist.
DK: Really?
KO: My father, I won a scholarship to the Royal Academy when I was fifteen,
DK: Right.
KO: But I had no one to live with in London so I had to put it off for another year, then I had to take an examination that year to get the exhibition the year after that which actually brought me up too far close to the war and, even then, I had a year to go before I could get into the Air Force so I joined the Home Guard, did my duties as far as I could from then, and at that time, it was the 13th of September I think of ’39 that I was in headquarters and the phone rang and call out all the home guard, we’re anticipating the invasion immediately, so that passed over of course and October came and I thought, well, really it’s time and I just was old enough then to volunteer so I volunteered for aircrew in October of 1940.
DK: [unclear] back to me, when you were in the Home Guard, what were your sort of roles then? What were you actually doing, were you guarding anything or?
KO: No, I was in headquarters most of the time, but I had to take out messages or anything that required, you know, but I was there nights and so forth.
DK: So were you mostly young men there waiting to be called up or sort of [unclear]?
KO: No, no, they were all a lot much older than me.
DK: Alright. Alright, so you applied then to the Air Force, so
KO: Mh.
DK: It was always your intention then to,
KO: I always wanted to fly.
DK: Alright. Yeah, so did you actually go into pilot training then?
KO: Yes, in, I started flying in April of ’41, it was April so, anyway. And did the usual six weeks at Blackpool and then waiting for a course to come around they sent me to Northern Ireland guarding an auxiliary airfield there against the IRA and then in Maytime they sent me over then to Scone, that Scone, there was at, oh God! This is, my memory is, north of, in Scotland,
DK: Ah, ok.
KO: On the east coast top, anyhow that was the biggest town north. We were there prepared to go down to ITW then at Scarborough, by, by June then I was flying from Sealand on the wirrell
DK: What type of aircraft were you flying?
KO: Tiger Moths.
DK: Ah!
KO: Which I did, I loved flying and I had the aptitude for it and I really thoroughly enjoyed my time there, it was wonderful.
DK: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
KO: Oh, I liked it very much and I, our last hour or two that we had on the course, my friend and I, we were supposed to be going out for three quarters of an hour flight at night in the evening, come back and report and then go back and do another three quarters of an hour so I said to my mate, well, this is a bit of a waste of time, I’ll meet you over the river Dee and we’ll have a dogfight, which we did. When time came to, to come back to report in, he disappeared and I thought, well, I don’t know where the heck I am [laughs], we wandered about somewhat for three quarters of an hour so I had, eventually I had to give up and I saw a farm with smoke coming out of the chimney and I decided, well, that looks alright so I made a forced landing into this field, knocking out a host of surveyors posts on the way down and a ditch that was half way across which I hadn’t noticed. Anyhow I landed there and a motorcyclist came in and I got out and spread my map on his handle bars and asked him where I was and he gave to, I was in the middle of Lancashire so I flew back and,
DK: You’ve gone that far south?
KO: Yes. So, anyway, I was up for the wing code the next morning,
DK: Were you able to take off out the field then?
KO: Yeah, I did, half the field
DK: Yeah, so that was
KO: It was,
DK: Damaged the aircraft?
KO: No, no, it was a bit dodgy, there was a wood at the end of the field and I just caught the width to the corner of it and I managed to get through, anyway we landed there and the next morning I was up in front of the CO and charged which it was going to be a court martial but he let me go on [unclear] cause I was the first one to solo [unclear] thirties so I thought, you know, I’m made for this and so I was taken off the Spitfight posting and ended up in Canada flying Oxfords. We were on the Oxfords for some while and then there was, Bennett was just do the Pathfinders setup and he had no navigators, only map readers really, observers, don’t tell him I [unclear], but he had no navigators so he took five pilots off of every pilots course in Canada, brought us home to do the Middle course on the navigators, then go onto flying,
DK: So, you were actually on a pilot’s course in Canada.
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Got called off by Bennett,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Because he needed navigators,
KO: Yeah,
DK: How did you feel about that at the time?
KO: Not very happy, I must admit, but anyway.
DK: How were you chosen, was it almost a lottery or?
KO: Well, I don’t know, I think probably I wasn’t landing them very well. I came down [unclear], the approach was hundred percent, I touched down on the wheels, nice and quietly, as soon as the tailwheel had dropped, which off the runway we’d had, my instructor never once told me that I should be doing three point landings, never mentioned, then when the CFI took me up, I did the same thing and he then asked my instructor whether he’d taught me three point landings, of course he said, oh yes, of course he has, and so I was one of the five that got tucked out.
DK: So, it might have been poor training on the trainer’s part, not I suppose, [unclear]
KO: Well, I mean, it seems simple enough, things say you should be doing three-point landings. I landed quietly and smoothly, you know, and,
DK: And this would have been the Oxford, would it?
KO: Yeah, yes. Anyhow I came back home, nearly torpedoed on the way home.
DK: Can you remember which ship you came back on?
KO: [unclear] Dam and just out of Halifax I was on my sway hammock and there was an enormous bang, I thought, my God, we’d been torpedoed, and I bet, I was four flights down and I bet I was, tops of that before anybody else [laughs]. However, there happened to be a torpedo, a destroyer had come alongside and for no apparent reason, and he happened just to take the torpedo and the thing was sunk with all hands and we just carried on, there was fire
DK: You can’t remember the name of the destroyer that was lost?
KO: No, no, no.
DK: No. Did you actually see it go down or?
KO: No,
DK: No.
KO: But we were told.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But you see, we were in two passengers, well, one was obviously a passenger ship and we were in a sort of half and half but there were five hundred aircrew on board ships, then we had several destroyers flying around us all the way back across the Atlantic. It took three weeks coming home cause we went all over the place and got back to England and put me on the navigation course which we did one course at Grand Hotel, oh, Eastbourne,
DK: Right. Yep, yep.
KO: Six weeks and then we were sent off on a ship again, I thought, we are going back to Canada again, which I didn’t like cause I got engaged to a girl in Canada while I was out there. Anyway, we went to South Africa and I was, from start to finish it was nearly eight months, wasted out of my flying time, going down there, doing the course and coming back again and we spent three weeks at Clairwood race course in tents. Then they moved us to East London and we were there for another six weeks and while we were there I met somebody there quite out of the blue, he asked me what we did, what our hobbies were, said well, I played the violin, oh, he said, I know somebody who’d be interested in you so he took me up the road to this gentleman and he said, would you like to play me something? So I played him one of the better class pieces that I used to perform and he said, would you like to play with the municipal orchestra on Sunday? This was Thursday, so I did that and did that the following month, so that was the virtually, the last time I played the violin at all, really.
DK: So you never played it since then?
KO: No, not really, no.
DK: No, no.
KO: So, anyway we got back and messed about for ages and I did,
DK: How did you feel when all this was going on, you were going to South Africa [unclear] was there a certain amount of frustration or?
KO: Yes I, you know, it was very enjoyable,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But it wasn’t what I wanted to do. Anyway we got back and there was so many aircrew trained here messing about Bournemouth was full of them all the time, they didn’t know what to do with us, anyhow we ended up at Harrogate, we were sent off on a commander course to start with at Whitley Bay, six weeks and then they sent me up to Scone to sit in the back seat of a Tiger Moth with a [unclear] recently qualified pilot in front and I was another six weeks messing about there, well, that was barely started the navigation course properly so I don’t think I was gonna get there.
DK: Was navigation something you took to easily, was it?
KO: Oh yes, I was, no worries about that, and then I was onto OTU and from what I understand I was, uhm, was the top of the class in both flying and ground subjects and,
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was you went to?
KO: I can never remember the name of it, was north of Oxford.
DK: Right. Is not in there, in the logbook.
KO: It would be, I suppose. It’s more likely in the back of my pilot’s, pack of pilot’s
DK: That one.
KO: But in the back,
DK: Oh, right, ok. So, what year are we talking about now then? It’s,
KO: That’ll be ’42.
DK: ’42, alright. So that’s the Oxford, so that’s ’41, ’74, you are still flying in ’74.
KO. Oh that’s, that’s flying here.
DK: Right.
KO: It’ll be very, very close to, no, but it wouldn’t be in there, yes, on the back, on the back page, I got all the
DK: Ah, right.
KO: All the,
DK: Ah, right, ok, so ’40,
KO: In, here, up here.
DK: [unclear] ’43.
KO: And here.
DK: 16.
KO: 16.
DK: Ah, right, so, I’ll just say this for the benefit of the tape so it’s 16 OTU Upper Hayford. So you were there from the 10th of August 1943,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Then we went onto Scampton and then to Swinderby.
DK: And that was,
KO: On Stirlings
DK: 16
KO: We did Wellingtons at
DK: 16 OTU
KO: 16 OTU,
DK: Yeah,
KO: And then we went on the Stirlings
DK: And that was at Swinderby
KO: Yes and then the Lancs
DK: Right, so, at 1660 Conversion Unit, Swinderby, that was the Stirlings.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah, and then at Syerston,
KO: Yes,
Dk: That was 5 Lancaster finishing school.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, at Upper Hayford was the Wellingtons?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yes, so what was your feeling about the Wellington then as an aircraft?
KO: Oh, fine and my pilot that I had there, although he hadn’t all that many arrows in, he was fine and we got on very well, our crew was first class and everything we did, we were quite well appraised for.
DK: So how did your crew get together then?
KO: Oh, we all, they put us in a hangar and said, I’m sorry, sort yourselves out, so to speak, you know.
DK: You just found yourselves a pilot,
KO: Yes, from
DK: Do you think that worked well?
KO: Yes, it did in our case.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I had an excellent crew and I was very sorry that we went on from there to Metheringham,
DK: Right.
KO: With Gibson squadron.
DK: 106 Squadron.
KO: And my pilot went on a Second Dickey trip with his, with a crew that were on their last operation,
DK: Right.
KO: And failed to return. So, we were sent back to Scampton again in to be recrewed. If they’d given us another pilot, which would have been more sensible, they split the whole crew up as far as I can [unclear] gave us another crew of odd bodies that they had and he wasn’t too bad, he wasn’t as good as my other pilot, you know, they were a little bit lumpy, but see my trouble was, my navigator’s seat was well back from the front and as I remember it seems I had a little office of my own now, the only,
DK: This was the Wellington,
KO: Stirling.
DK: Stirling, right, ok.
KO: And my only chance of talking to the pilot was on the intercom.
DK: Right.
KO: So I never was anywhere near him. It was when we got on to Syerston to the Lancaster, I was sitting right behind him as you realised and he had the most dreadful body odour that you could ever imagine, it really was out of this world,
DK: Oh dear,
KO: And so I took the crew up to the wing commander after we’d just sort of finished the early stages with the Lanc and I said, I can’t fly with this bloke, we all agreed, nearly court martialled, I [unclear] go for, go for a [unclear] you know and anyway we sent back to Scampton again and,
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Scampton for a third time.
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: Alright. When you, just going back to 106, you never met Gibson then, did you?
KO: No.
DK: I, just for the, slightly confusing that for the tape, just for the benefit of the tape, what I’ll say here is where you were, so initially it was Upper Hayford with 16 OTU from the 10th of August 1943, then it was Scampton 15th of December ’43, then 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby from the 8th of February ’44 on Stirlings,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school at Syerston,
KO: Yes.
DK: from 28th of March ’44, obviously on Lancasters, then 106 Squadron your pilot went missing as a Second Dickey, so back to Scampton again, then Swinderby,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school, Syerston again,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then back to Scampton because it’s problems with the pilot,
KO: Yes. On 106.
DK: On 106, and then on, I’ve got here, then onto 627, so that was, that’s the next question,
KO: Yes, yeah.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, you’ve complained about your pilot then and what happened then?
KO: Oh, they didn’t do him any harm or anything, I’m just, my memory gets so bad at times, other times I can go with, like, you know, what was the question?
DK: It was, you’re back at Scampton and you complained about the pilot, cause of the body odour,
KO: Yes.
DK: So what happened then?
KO: Well, straight away I was sent to Woodhall Spa from there.
DK: Right, ok. And that’s with 627 Squadron.
KO: 627 Squadron, yes.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, what were you flying at 627 then?
KO: Mosquitoes.
DK: Yeah. What did you think about the Mosquito?
KO: Oh, marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Yes, I, never complaints about the Mosquito.
DK: Was it a bit of a shock when you’ve gone from four engine bombers?
KO: It was lovely.
DK: Yeah. So you,
KO: Oh. Beautiful.
DK: So you never flew any operations on the four engine bombers?
KO: No, not again, no, no, no. It was all on the Mosquitoes from there on.
DK: Alright.
KO: And then of course the first, the move from Metheringham to Woodhall Spa was like chalk and cheese, you know, [unclear] it, well, every moment we, there we enjoyed the flying and the operational side of it and,
DK: Yeah.
KO: It was just something once in a lifetime, you know.
DK: What was Woodhall Spa like as an airfield then?
KO: It was big enough for what we wanted cause they were flying 617 from there as well so they had to cover the twenty thousand pound bomb weight on runways cause it was just a small camp, on the outside there was no main buildings to it at all, we were very much countryfied.
DK: Did you go to the Petwood Hotel at all?
KO: No, that was 617’s privilege that was,
DK: Ah, right.
KO: We were in the Nissen huts.
DK: [laughs] oh, ok.
KO: Which was a bit of a comedown.
DK: Did you get to know anyone of the 617 crew?
KO: I did but I can’t remember the names now. [laughs] Funnily enough, one of the well known ones that flew with Gibson on the dams, I went into the sergeants mess one day and he was playing cards with a table full of crews there for 617 and he said, can you lend me a pound? So, I lend him the pound, never expecting to get it back again, when I came out of the Air Force about four years after that, I happened to be standing in front of my restaurant in Northampton and who should come in? This chap I’d lent the pound to. So, I caught him and I got me pound back on it [laughs].
DK: [unclear] oh excellent, [laughs], well he did owe it to you.
KO: Yeah, having done the dams raid he was lucky to.
DK: Yeah. So, you can’t remember who that was then now?
KO: I, a flash came into my head, I got an idea whose name, was Monroe, was it?
DK: Les Monroe? Yeah, Les Monroe.
KO: Yeah.
DK: The New Zealander?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah. He owed you a pound [laughs].
KO: Yeah. He just walked in the shop, not knowing I was there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I just recognized, I said, hey you.
DK: I actually met Les a couple of times when he came over to UK, last few years. So, you’re now on a Mosquito squadron, so what was your actual role then as 627 Squadron, what were you?
KO: We were at 99 percent for marking, for main force.
DK: Right.
KO: And we were the only squadron that did what we did. We were way ahead of everybody else, and we had to dive, we introduced dive bomb marking which was not heard of before 627 Squadron was formed. But they started off the first two or three months joining in with the, flying backwards and forwards to Berlin in those days and then when we moved up with 617 Squadron, we started doing what we did, that was our thing, and that was flying ahead of main force and being there three minutes before the actual time we needed to be there because that was ten minutes between, let me try to explain it a different way, the flares, the target was illuminated by one or two squadrons of Lancasters from our station to drop thousands of luminating shares over the target area and five of us went out separately to the target and stood off until the first markers went down illuminating, lights went down and on the, dead on the spot, they were there ten minutes before the time for bombing and we went in, in that ten minutes under the flares, dive bombed the marker onto the target for about, well, anything from three, two, three hundred feet, from fifteen hundred feet and it was purely up to the pilot because he dropped the bomb, the had a china graph pencil mark on his windscreen and he, that was his only guide he had to drop his markers, and they used to put that according to how they saw it in height and that sort of thing that needed to be very careful and then we would drop off the markers at about two hundred feet, something like that.
DK: Two hundred feet.
KO: Well, we, we flew round Dresden at three or four hundred feet, probably five hundred feet for nearly ten minutes.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So, the illuminators went in first,
KO: Yes.
DK: They illuminated the target area.
KO: Yes.
DK: So you could then see where to drop your
KO: That’s right.
DK: drop your indicators by
KO: Yes.
DK: [unclear] moving on the target.
KO: Yes.
DK: And then the main force came in.
KO: After that, yes.
DK: Yeah. So, how was that controlled then? Was it?
KO: Just on timing.
DK: Literally on timing, so there’s no one there.
KO: No, no, no, no, we had to be there three minutes before the, ten minutes if you like,
DK: Right, yeah.
KO: Thirteen minutes, three minutes we had to get in our track in to go in and do our dive in.
DK: Right.
KO: That was just for error, for coming from, over from Holland down to Dresden, we had that little margin of difference, so at ten to the target, the Lancasters then came in, they had ten minutes to bomb on the markers that we had laid.
DK: So, can, just stepping back one bit, can you remember where your first operation was to then?
KO: Uhm, Bremen.
DK: Bremen. And how many operations did you actually do then?
KO: I, we did twenty-two operations altogether.
DK: Twenty-two.
KO: They were spread over a little bit but, see we only did, we had enough crews that we only did one every five.
DK: Right.
KO. We had thirty crew, thirty crew men on the, for fifteen aircraft and we only ever sent five aircraft out on an operation, so we had, there was, sort of,
DK: It’s quite a long period between flight then,
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: So, can you remember when the tour started and when it ended, how long it was for, roughly?
KO: The first tour?
DK: Yeah.
KO: I’m having a particular bad day today, I don’t know why it is, but, oh Jesus! [laughs] I’m lost.
DK: Is it, will it be recorded in here anywhere?
KO: Yes, it was about, the middle, the middle of June-July of forty
DK: ’44.
KO: ’44.
DK: Ok, here we go, yeah, so, that’s 627 Squadron
KO: Yes.
DK: At Woodhall Spa.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, on the 25th of July
KO: Yes.
DK: ’44, so that’s all practice
KO: Yes. Our night operations were in red.
DK: Right.
KO: So, we did, only did one in every three.
DK: Ok, that way we’ll, so, that’s all practice so, uhm, cross country, practice.
KO: We practiced at least five times for every operation we did.
DK: Alright. Ok, so we got off ways to see if we got Gladbach, that’s Monchen Gladbach presumably.
KO: So, that was where Gibson got lost,
DK: Right, alright, ok.
KO: So, that was his own fault.
DK: [laughs] We’ll come back to that in a minute. Ok, [unclear]
KO: Yes, I think we did four in one week, which was an exceptional.
DK: Right.
KO: My first op was a day run to L’Isle-de-Adam, a bomb dump north of Paris. We had a fairly leisurely time as you can see.
DK: I see there is an awful lot of practice between the actual raids, isn’t it?
KO: Yeah, it was about five, one in five. Really, what brought that about was we had to have the aircraft on for that night, and they had to have a morning test before,
DK: Right.
KO: And we used the test to go and do a bombing run on the sands at
DK: [unclear]
KO: [unclear], yeah.
DK: So, navigation then and timing clearly needs to be very accurate.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But we didn’t do anything really, we flew, normal thing was that we flew out to Holland and turned from just over the coast of Holland, turned down to the, wherever we were going, from there it was, we had no troubles [unclear], we went more or less our own way, we knew what time we had to be there and that but.
DK: So, I think this is your first operation the 6th of October ’44 to Bremen.
KO: That was the first time when we used our dive bomb technique.
DK: Right, ok.
KO: It was, they didn’t know really what it was gonna be like and they told the CO that he wasn’t to go on that operation.
DK: Oh, alright. So, then you got the Mittelland Canal on the 6th of November ’44.
KO: They were easy.
DK: So, it’s got bolted flares over [unclear]. And then you’ve got, 21st of November the Dortmund-Ems Canal.
KO: Mhm, there were two or three of those.
DK: And then I’ve got here the 13th of December ’44, the Cologne and Emden ships cruisers.
KO: Yes, that was in, that was in the Oslofjord, but they moved them by the time we got up there and it was a wasted trip.
DK: So, this is [unclear] called off by marker one.
KO: Yes, well.
DK: So, it was a
KO: I can, this, as I was saying to my friend today, I’ve worried about that ever since and I cannot understand because I was absolutely dead on track all the way up there, I said the only thing I can excuse myself in is that the pilot was running ten miles an hour, he was on three hundred and twenty instead of three hundred and thirty and he would jump down my throat if I suggested that but I couldn’t find no other reason for being late cause we were dead on course for everything.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] this, that’s [unclear].
KO: That’s, that was stacked down for a purpose. Probably made a mess of it so.
DK: So, then we got 14th of January ’45 and it’s oil refinery at Mersberg. So, that’s and it’s got here two times one thousands, so that’s two one thousand pound bombs.
KO: Yeah.
DK: And the red target indicators. So that’s [unclear] what you’ve dropped and. So, then it’s 2nd of February ’45 Karlsruhe. It says target obscured by cloud. Sky marking only.
KO: Yes.
DK: So then, 2nd of Feb, Dortmund.
KO: Dortmund.
DK: It says one target marked.
KO: I’m doing well, aren’t I? [laughs]
DK: And then, 8th of Feb, Politz-Stettin, oil refinery. Stettin oil refinery, yeah. And then the 13th of Feb ’45, ops Dresden. Marker two. And then backed up, one one thousand pounder, red TI. So, just talking about that then, what actually happened on the Dresden raid? Was..
KO: Well, the, there was a trade wind blowing to start with and normally, starting off from home, we would climb to the operating height, going out and we would take a fix every three minutes and find an average wind which we would calculate to fly us on from there to Dresden. But this MIG wasn’t working particularly well and when we got to the turning point, it was a question of hops and choices to how you carried on from there. So I part guessed well I could [unclear] what I’d got already to choose from and then I realised that the thing that we had installed in the aircraft which I’d never used before, I’d never been instructed on because it was introduced while I was on leave, I thought, well, I’ll give it a go and see if I hadn’t have the charts with me and so, I took him, took him down on that, bearing as it was, there was a line running straight through Dresden that I could put up on the machine, that was terrible cause on a Gee box you had to two stroves running like that, but on this particular case, when I went on to the LORAN, it was like that and right across the thing as you couldn’t tell which was which, you had to take a guess at it and fortunately I guessed right and I didn’t navigate all the way down there. I just kept on one line and then I could, guide him down along this line all the way down to Dresden and then there was a one, there was another line crossing the second line there which went through Dresden and as soon as I kept switching backwards and forwards to that, and when that line came up, I said, right-oh Jock, we’re here now. We were three minutes early and doing the right one turn, another one [unclear] the arrival and then the main force came, we had the, the uhm, the squadrons that were dropping in there, illuminating flares came in at ten to eleven and we were just on the edge of the city, sitting there, waiting for them. We had to put those down and then we went in and dived in and we were just, just about to call out marker two, tally-ho, and number one tally-ho didn’t just in front of us so we had to go round again and
DK: So you, so marker one got his markers in first
KO: He was the flight commander anyway,
DK: Right, ok.
KO: So, couldn’t, he couldn’t
DK: Right. So, your markers then were the second to go.
KO: Yes.
DK: Right.
KO: Btu we were the most accurate.
DK: Right.
KO: On that.
DK: And how low would you’ve been when you dropped the markers?
KO: About three hundred feet.
DK: As low as that.
KO: Well, we were so low, that as we flew away from there, my pilot was looking back to see if he could see where they’d dropped and I had a shout at him because we were just gonna hit the spires of the cathedral, so I had to pull him up on that one. And then we just circled around Dresden for three or four minutes at five hundred feet and then we came home.
DK: And did you see much of the main force bombing then in that five minutes?
KO: They just started to bomb,
DK: Right.
KO: And I think they let a couple of four hundred, four thousand pounders off as we weren’t all that high and we could feel the, [unclear] get out quick now
DK: I just, for the benefit of the tape, I just read what it says here, so, 13th of Feb ’45, you took off at 2000 as, Mosquito F, so your pilot was flying officer Walker and your navigator so it says, ops Dresden, marker two, which you mentioned backed up, so is that meaning you backed up marker one?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Well, we got in, it was a football stadium
DK: Right.
KO: We got our marker in the football stadium.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: And the others were in a bunch, nearly [unclear] a hundred yards,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Way but,
DK: So, your second ones down was actually the more accurate and then it’s got one thousand, so you got a thousand-pound bomb and red
KO: They were a thousand-pound flares.
DK: Oh sorry, so you dropped one-thousand-pound red target indicators
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Sorry, yeah, so one thousand red target indicator. And you
KO: And the others all backed up after that.
DK: Yeah. So, you arrived back at 0540?
KO: I know my, my history today to you doesn’t sound very much but on my claim for a commission, my squadron commander and the camp squadron commander both put down that we were the best crews, one of the best crews of the squadron.
DK: Oh!
KO: We did do well, I mean, we felt that we, if we dropped our markers that was bloody well close on it and of course the last operation we did was at Tonsberg oil refinery at the
DK: Right.
KO: The, first up towards Oslo and
DK: So, were all the operations with Walker?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was he a good pilot?
KO: He was a good pilot and he was good at dropping the bombs too. We were the best on that one as well. But, I know it sounds terrible, our successes and that sort of thing but sometimes they went right and sometimes they didn’t and sometimes if our radar wasn’t working up to scratch, we
DK: So, when you were briefed for Dresden then, it was just an ordinary briefing
KO: Yes.
DK: And an ordinary target.
KO: Yes. When I was allocated onto a new job I’d only been on the squadron about six weeks, two months when I was sent to RAF Wyton 1409 Met Flight
DK: Right.
KO: For a two week crash course on wind reporting then I found myself that we were doing a big operation in south Germany and we had to stop at Manston to refuel and my job then was to decide two hundred miles from the target whether it was gonna be satisfactory for the main force to continue on to attack the target and if I didn’t think it was gonna be satisfactory, my job was to call them out and send them home.
DK: So, you’ve gone out and checked the weather in effect then.
KO: No, that was all we were supposed to be doing,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But fortunately the fog came down and we were, the thing was called off. It was never reinstated again but I think that somebody up a loft had said, well, this is a bloody silly idea in the first place.
DK: That, was that with 1409 Met Flight?
KO: Oh, that was where I was sent for those two-week crash course.
DK: Right, ok. Ok, so you’ve done the training at 1409 Met course.
KO: What there was there of it.
DK: Yeah. So, you, did you get?
KO: I was
DK: Did you get back to Manston then or?
KO: Oh yeah, yes, well we uhm, I think we came in that night, I think we came into, probably into Woodbridge.
DK: Alright. Cause there’s one here you’ve been here the 12th of October ’44, it says from Manston, yeah. You went to Manston the day before. So that idea of going out early and
KO: Cause we used the wing tanks up, you see, we needed all the petrol that we could carry to get there and back so we’d use the wing tanks up going down to Manston until we had to refuel then and while that was being done, we were a little bit early, the fog came down and the whole thing was scrubbed.
DK: Alright. That’s what it’s saying here that you remained at Manston. Yeah. So, just going on here then, 16th of March ’45, Wurzburg, ops to Wurzburg.
KO: Wurzburg.
DK: Yeah, so you’re marker two. So, one thousand [unclear] red target indicator, one one thousand yellow target indicators,
KO: That’s what we carried.
DK: Right. But we carried a red, yellow and a green, as the Germans had a funny act of if the red ones went down they’d light another red one up somewhere away from it, you see, to distract it, so we’d have to go back in again and drop the green beside the red or whatever and
DK: Is this when you’ve got the master bomber’s there then that were telling
KO: Yeah, the master bomber’s up there.
DK: Yeah. So he’s then telling who, the rest of the main force who, which coloured markers to bomb. Has he mentioned you on the same operation that Gibson was lost on
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: You didn’t know him cause he flew a 627 Mosquito force [unclear], didn’t he?
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: You didn’t meet him there then?
KO: I’ve met him on several occasions but, you know, not sort of personally, we were, [unclear] had social occasion or on one occasion he tried to, he came into our little bar, as you can imagine, we were in Nissen huts and they were all posh in and they came down to our officer’s mess and we, that was an airman’s hut actually, the whole mess, and the kitchen that was all part of it but we had no bar arrangements or that, so we had a builder of one of the boys in the squadron, so he built the bar and built a fire in there for us so we could have an officer’s drinking area. And one night my pilot and three Australians were in there having a drink and the door opened and Gibson appears and nobody sort of moved and he came, don’t you normally stand to attention and when a senior officer comes in? And they looked at each other, said, no, no, no. So, anyway, he created such a fuss, they grabbed hold of him, took him outside, took his trousers off and told him not to come in again. The next morning, there was an officer’s parade which he officiated, went down the line and of course the Australians all six foot something in their dark uniforms and my pilot who was a real dural Scotsman,
DK: This was Walker, was it?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KO: He was standing at the end of the line and he got him and he put him in the glasshouse for three weeks. So, he didn’t remain very popular with our crowd.
DK: Alright.
KO: So I was flying odd bits with anybody who was needing it, the navigator, flew all that three weeks when he was
DK: Well that, I mean, that meant you had another pilot you had to fly with then that. So you, you weren’t too pleased about that then?
KO: Well, we didn’t [unclear]
DK: Alright, ok. They were just
KO: I might have gone on a night flying test.
DK: Alright, so you didn’t do any operations while he was in [unclear]
KO: No, I mean, I had a very, very nice round of it really, I mean, some of the ops we did, we, yeah, you had to have your head on and I was, I was considered to be one of the better navigators although it didn’t sound like it. You know, you don’t know the circumstances of how things go.
DK: So, what was it like then if you were, you know, you are flying the Mosquito there, you’re over enemy territory, what does it feel like, it’s very dark and you’re being shot at?
KO: Well, we weren’t being shot at, that was just the point you see. Everybody else, the main force went out on allocated circuit. We went out, there was only five of us, we went out and more or less did it the way we thought we would, we didn’t stick to any plan as long as we were there sort of three minutes before the flares went down
DK: Right
KO: Thirteen minutes before the bombers came in. So rise up and up and when cross sort of thing on the machine I said right-oh, Jock, we’re here now and three minutes early, do a right one turn, wind off three minutes and that should bring us on time, that moment in time, the flares started to come down and we turned to going to find the thing and the number one saw it just as, we were just, there’s a story in my book there, he pressed the [unclear] just at the same time my pilot was just going to so we had to go off and go round again. And that happened several times and on one, where we had to bomb Wesel, because the commanders had taken over, they crossed the river there and they were outside of Wesel, we had to mark Wesel and we went, there was five of us, we went in and we had to put our markers on the, uhm, the, what’s, I don’t know what you call it, uhm, on the stone part of the pier sort of thing
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: On the river
DK: Yeah.
KO: And both our pilots [unclear] at the same time, both pressed the button, that cut out transmission then we couldn’t hear anything else. We went in, they went in, and we went in, dropped our markers at the same time and they landed in the same, virtually the same place at the same time so how far we were apart where we dived in there, we couldn’t have been more than twenty feet apart, never saw them and they didn’t see us.
DK: I’m just reading there from your logbook, so, that’s the 23rd of March ’45 and it’s ops to Wesel, army support. And you’ve marked with a thousand-pound red target indicator. So, you both dropped at exactly the same time.
KO: And exactly the same spot.
DK: Onto a pier.
KO: Yeah.
DK: On the river.
KO: Yeah. We didn’t realise what had happened until we got back.
DK: So then just going on here, I’m just reading this out for the recorder here, so, you then got the 10 of April ’45 ops the marshalling yard near Leipzig. So, backed up number two, thousand-pound red target indicator, carrying a thousand-pound yellow target indicator.
KO: Yes.
DK: So that probably would have been your last operation then, would it or?
KO: [unclear] read, read.
DK: Oh, ok.
KO: I know that [laughs] I found out that since that my sister married a family in Northampton, they’re apparently of Jewish extraction and they came down to the grandfather had had property in East Germany,
DK: Oh, right.
KO: And nobody knew where it was or anything and it wasn’t until after the war that they set the wheels rolling and apparently there’s two blocks of very luxury apartments and we’d blown one block up and so they only got reparations for the one, who’d been getting the rent for the other one [unclear] up until that time nobody came to the fore.
DK: Oh, hang on, there’s another op here, so, uhm, so Norway, so 25th of April ’45 Tonsberg, Norway.
KO: Yes, that’s the last one I did.
DK: That’s the last one, yes, so [unclear]. So at that point the war’s ended, how did you feel then?
KO: Well, that was about the first or second op I did from commissioning.
DK: Right. So you were commissioned at this point. Yeah.
KO: But I didn’t, I didn’t bother, we didn’t know what was going to happen to us though, where we were going to go, and what happened, what happened then lot of the Ozzies were sent home and we brought in some new people because there was the Far East war and we were going to take part in that and so we were going out there to mark for 5 Group, was only 5 Group that was going out there and we were the Pathfinder Force for 5 Group but we weren’t going to do our dive bomb marking there, somebody got the bright idea of using H2S and we would fly over the target two thousand feet straight and level for two minutes and drop our markers out. You know, that was a ridiculous idea, we wouldn’t even know where the bloody markers had gone and we would’ve much rather continue what we were doing previously and knowing where it was but.
DK: This would’ve been part of Tiger Force then.
KO: Yes, this was Tiger Force and we were supposed to be leading it.
DK: So, the atomic bomb’s dropped then, how did you feel that you weren’t now having to go out to the Far East?
KO: I was a bit disappointed in some respect because I rather looked forward to the exploratory flight out there really but on the other hand, see, there was a five hundred miles from Okinawa to the landfall in Japan,
DK: Yeah.
KO: And we didn’t have that great deal of overlap of petrol to do that, so we were waiting for Mark 40 Mosquitoes to come, which were pressurized and we were flying at forty thousand feet out, taking the trade wind to blow us there, then we go down and do our marking role for drop our markers whatever to do there and then we were gonna come back at sea level because the trade wind would,
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Well that was what the theory was anyway, that would blow us back, blow us there and blow us back. Which we weren’t particularly thrilled with the idea.
DK: Oh, I can imagine.
KO: As you can imagine, sort of being dropped in the sea in the middle of the Pacific there.
DK: [unclear] Get blown back [laughs].
KO: [laughs] No, some people spark ideas, I don’t know.
DK: So the war’s ended then, what were you
KO: Yeah.
DK: You carried on [unclear]
KO: What happened then was, I was supposed to be leaving the [unclear] and they started sending the Ozzies back then because the war was,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Virtually finished then and they started importing a few other crews to come in, to go on the Okinawa job and [unclear] I was gonna say now, I lost the thread or something.
DK: So, the war’s ended, you’re [unclear] not going.
KO: Yes, so a lot of the new boys that they’d brought in were dispersed amongst other stations and so forth and we were just left to [unclear] we were the only crews that were taken out of the squadron and sent firstly to Feltwell and then, I can never remember the other airfield and then ended up at Marham,
DK: Right.
KO: On a bombing development unit. Now we were supposed to think up different ways of attack for future things, well, that was a waste of time really but that was all we were doing. All the rest of the them, down the squadron as it was left, cause they’d imported a lot of aircrew, and sent the Ozzies back, and they were sent to uhm, 19th Squadron, something like that,
DK: Right.
KO: And within months it was, they were all released from it.
DK: And what happened to yourself, then you, did you leave the RAF at that point?
KO: I was still on bombing development unit.
DK: Right.
KO: We just, from there we just five crews of us there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: And I stayed on till June and I was then pat to hand in me notice so to speak.
DK: So that would have been June 1946.
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah, you’re at Marham. So, you’ve left the Air Force in ’46 then. Yeah. So, what did you after that then?
KO: Well, it’s a bit of a long story really, I wanted to, I wanted to get engaged to one of the WAAFs in the squadron who was a parachute packer.
DK: Right.
KO: And I wanted to get engaged, this was at Christmas time, and I went home that weekend, took a photograph and my father said, no, you’re not marrying that girl. So, I sort of, I [unclear] a little bit, he said, no, you’re not going to marry that girl, if you do, he said, we shall sell the business up, we shall go back to America cause my parents were American born.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: So, I said very briefly, well, that’s what you want to do, that’s what you left to do. Anyhow, they didn’t go back, the father bought a bungalow outside the town and I left myself thinking that this was the route I was going to take, that he changed his mind about being awkward and he bought two limited companies in Northampton and when I came out to take on the businesses which was a great help to me because I only had one other option which was to stay in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But that wasn’t very good because they really didn’t want anybody else in the, in there but that’s. So where I went and I was in Northampton then for five or six years working on the family business and then we divided up from there into the different companies and so forth.
DK: [unclear] The family business actually involve?
KO: A restaurant and bakeries.
DK: Oh, alright, ok. So, so looking back now, after all these years, several years, how do you feel about your time in the Air Force?
KO: I mean, for good or bad?
DK: Both [laughs]
KO: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Alright.
KO: No, it was a great experience, I learned a lot really from it, you know, and I wouldn’t have missed a day of my experiences there I mean [unclear] fly in the Air Force, when I came home and joined the local flying club and I was flying several hundred hours [unclear].
DK: So you did eventually get your private pilot’s license, then.
KO: I got my private pilot license, yes.
DK: Yeah. And, one other question I’ve got, did you know anything about the controversy of 627 Squadron moving from Bennett’s 8 Group to
KO: Oh, it was a bit of an argy bargy about that.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But, no, that’s what, what came away and that’s what we accepted.
DK: So, when you initially joined 627, you were part of 8 Group, were you, under Bennett.
KO: Yes. And 6
DK: And then moved to 5 Group under Cochrane.
KO: Yes. And 617 Squadron were on the same station with us.
DK: Right.
KO: So, it was quite a nice association really.
DK: Yeah. And you got on well with 617 Squadron.
KO: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Was a really good arrangement really.
DK: So, that controversy then, you just accepted you were going to another group.
KO: Well, that was all you could do really.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Hadn’t got a great deal of option [laughs].
DK: Ok. Well, absolutely marvelous.
KO: I’m sorry I’ve been so
DJK: You’ve been absolutely wonderful, brilliant, don’t worry, it’s useful having the logbook here cause we’ve gone through the various
KO: My memory seems to be worse at times than others and
DK: You’ve been absolutely marvelous, no, it’s been good
KO: Good. It’s been absolute rubbish from my point of view.
DK: That’s been good. Right, I’ll turn that off now.
KO: Ok.
DK: Ok, thank you very much.
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Interview with Ken Oatley
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-03-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AOatleyK170321, POatleyK1701
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01:03:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Initially too young to enlist at the outbreak of war, Ken Oatley served in the Home Guard until he was able to enlist in October 1940, when after initial training he undertook pilot training. After basic flying training he went onto Canada training on Oxfords. It was whilst there Donald Bennett was forming the Pathfinder Force. Five pilot trainees were taken from each course to retrain as navigators and Ken was selected for transfer. Eventually posted to 627 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa on Mosquito aircraft, Ken flew a total of 22 operations. He describes how 627 Squadron operated within Bomber Command operations, explaining how their role was to arrive and illuminate the designated targets for the following bombers. This included the operation on Dresden in February 1945. At the end of the war, Ken served with the Bomb Development Unit at RAF Marham, before being demobbed in 1946.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940-10
1945-02
1946
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Dresden
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1660 HCU
617 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Manston
RAF Marham
RAF Metheringham
RAF Scampton
RAF Sealand
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stirling
target indicator
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1056/11435/AOwenA150603.2.mp3
c12ac4f6e9a9a8007ac138b17d654e1f
Dublin Core
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Title
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Owen, Taff
Aneurin Owen
A Owen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Aneurin 'Taff' Owen (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Owen, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right, so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Kavanagh, myself. The interviewee is Mr Owen. The interview is taking place at his home on the 3rd of June 2015. So, if you’d like to just describe your early life.
AO: Yes, well, my very early life started, of course, in Wales, as you might imagine with a name like Aneurin Owen.
DK: I was going to say. [slight laugh]
AO: And, um, it was near Dolgellau near a little village called Penmaenpool, that was our nearest point, near the farm. I was a farmer’s son and we farmed there in them days. And I can recall going to, walking about three miles to school, each way that was in those days with — in all weathers, but the thing was then, most children did in that part of the world in them days. Also, um, I was very lucky, I always thought, in them days. I had a wonderful teacher, er, a primary school teacher. We used to get to school wet through sometimes and she used to slip all our clothes off and get them dried for us with one of these old fashioned stoves, you know, the old tortoise stoves we called them and, er, she was brilliant with our — with us, certainly with me, and some of the other farm children. But I suppose looking back as well in that time — I left there about ten years of age or nine years of age, nine and a half — and, um, just before a year or two before I left, I came across my very first sight of an aeroplane which was flown in the very early days. I don’t know whose it was but he used to travel from Dolgellau to Barmouth on the Mawddach estuary to — all along the river there, and he used to look down from the cockpit, an aircraft flying with, along there, with an open cockpit. I assume it was a Percival Gull type of aircraft, something like that but I don’t know, of course, now what it was. I don’t know, even know, who it belonged to. But that, er, was my very first experience of seeing an aeroplane close too, I suppose. The very first one. Then we left there after Depression, the Great Depression, 1929 and ‘30, early 30s. I came to this farm in about 1934, nine years of age, took a farm in Husbands Bosworth and, er, we started dairy farming from there, from then onwards, because obviously dairy farming was an important event after the Milk Marketing Board just came into being in those days and gave us a monthly income. But, er, one of the jobs I had to do before going to school, of course, here, going to, to the school at Lutterworth, was to milk two cows in the morning and two when I got home from school, and most of the time it was my own [slight laugh] but, er, it wasn’t a very pleasant job, actually, to do either before going to school, I found, because it was a dirty job. The cows were dirty and you had a job to get yourself cleaned up again in time for catching the school bus you got in those days. But, er, it was a job I didn’t care much for, like, because me and my father didn’t get on terribly well, er, in those days. Well, er, one, if you didn’t do your job properly then you got a thick ear for it [slight laugh], for not been doing what you were told. But going back to the flying, the first aircraft I saw, of all things, I saw in about 1936 here, flying up above the valley was an autogyro. That was the first time I ever saw one and I think he was on his trials run. I think it about 1936, no later than 1937 anyway, and he used to come along the valley from Market Harborough to Rugby and then follow the line but the autogyro — I can’t remember now who designed it. It was wing commander somebody, wasn’t it? I can’t think who it was exactly but going from — and then, that period as well, what really fascinated me was being able to see Amy Johnson. She used to come with the, with the, their flying circus team to do, well, flying demonstrations and flying trips for people, I think, which were about ten shillings a time, something like that but it doesn’t sound much money today but it was lots of money in those days. And I used to go an watch them at an airfield just near Husbands Bosworth and, er, I’m trying to think, Alan —.
DK: Cobham.
AO: Cobham. It was his flying circus. It became an annual event, and of course one of the people who came was Amy Johnson with him.
DK: Oh right.
AO: And, er, I got to see them flying their aircraft. I assume he used to do these events for financial reasons, to help them go on their world tours, they used to do probably as well. To get enough money for that. But it fascinated me to watch these aircraft taking off and I thought that’s the life for me, sort of thing, at the end of the day but that was only around about 1936. Yeah, 1936 the Tomahawk, would have been and then onwards, as I say, I didn’t get on terribly well with my father. My father was a strict parent I suppose, er, in lots of ways and, um, so I decided, I thought well I won’t stick it with farming, I’m going to do something else in life. And of course the Air Force, at that time, wasn’t in my mind as such but I wanted to do something different to farming so I thought I’d go — I was friendly with a guy named George Briggs from Bradford, who were wool merchants, and I decided to go there as an apprentice in the wool trade but, of course, by 1938, ’39 time, you could see the war clouds are looming and the expansion of the military forces as well, so things looked a bit different altogether at that time, and anyway, by 1940, my father died all of a sudden in — he had a heart attack and he was only thirty-seven years of age. But I’d still made my mind up, I wasn’t going to stick to farming but I think that was probably a mistake in some ways, as far as my mother was concerned, but, er, I made my mind up and that was it, and once I was old enough, I volunteered for the Air Force, you know. That’s what — and then by the time I was about seventeen and a half [cough], excuse me, er, I volunteered for — well, I was in a reserved occupation, of course, being in the farming side, so I could only go into air crew or submarines. But, er, submarines I didn’t fancy, didn’t — I wasn’t any good at swimming anyway [slight laugh].
DK: Yes. I can understand. [slight laugh]
AO: But at the back of my mind, I just wanted to go — flying was in my mind, you know, as far as that goes, so off I went to — I was supposed to volunteer. It was on a Sunday and I went to Leicester, I think it was to start with, and found the recruiting office was closed but I’d cycled to Leicester from here but there was a notice there saying the Hinckley office would be open, so I cycled to Hinckley and volunteered from there and, in the meantime, I also joined the Air Cadets in Lutterworth, yeah, Lutterworth branch that was, and we were able to go from there to, um, to an ITW to fly in a Tiger Moth on one or two occasions. That was at Desford, that was, which is a ITW, Initial Training Wing for — at that time and, within a short period of time anyway, I got my call-up papers come through and I had to go to Cardington for an interview there and do medical tests and so forth, to see if I was suitable for air crew and I passed that alright but unfortunately they found out I was under age. I was only, I was about seventeen and three quarters.
DK: Did you have to be eighteen then?
AO: Yes. I had to be 18, yep, so I came — they sent me back home from there until I was eighteen in November. And, anyway, I had Christmas at home that year, 1942 that was, and they called me up in, um, [inaudible] my papers came before Christmas, to report to Air Crew Receiving Centre in London, at St Johns Wood, of course, Regents Park, so that’s where I went to have further tests, be kitted out there, and also to have more exams and medicals there and, unfortunately, they found out that I had a lazy eye, so that restricted me to some parts of the air crew section, so that’s why I went out a wireless operator in the end. WOPAG they called them as well. And from there, of course, I can’t remember how long exactly, three or four weeks there, I suppose, by the time I was kitted out and initial square bashing you might describe it, and discipline, and Air Force law and that sort of thing. And we went on to, um, Bridgnorth, into ITW, Initial Training Wing, where we did quite a lot of square bashing in there and also Morse code and, er, radio equipment, basic equipment that was really. The Morse code was the most important thing there because you had get to, to be assessed at eight words a minute to pass there fairly quickly and then, er from then we had to do eighteen words a minute, but you only got one chance. If you failed you were out, sort of thing, you know, so that was it. You didn’t get a second chance. I don’t remember many having a second chance anyway at all. About three months there, it was altogether, in early 1943 and, er, we moved then to, to the Radio School in Yatesbury in Wiltshire. I think it was Number 2 Radio School, yeah, Number 2 Radio School, I think it was. That was quite a big unit that was there and, of course, we had to learn all the theory of radio and everything else there and also continue, of course, with our Morse code and, er, coding system, plus the procedure of Morse code as well, which was important of course. And then we had quite a long time there at Yatesbury, unfortunately, because the, um, this course was about a year-long altogether, after the theory part and then the practical part of it. We did a bit of flying then, eventually in Dominie aircraft bi-planes. That was our first part of flying in there and then we continued then as we progressed further, we went on to Proctors. And they had three different airfields there at Yatesbury. They had the main one for the Dominies on the main airfield, then another one which was called Town End, the Proctors used to fly from there, and then another one on occasion we had to go, which was miles away, was at Alton Barnes in the, in the Wolds, in the Downs, the Wiltshire Downs. Three airfields operated from there, actually, altogether and we used to be able to take a cook with us to Alton Barnes, because the local crowd [inaudible] there. We took a cook from the cookhouse with some meat and potatoes and they used to cook it for us, you know, in there, out in the open field with all mud [inaudible] early type of bake house, sort of thing, they had in there. And then after I finished, after Radio School — unfortunately, I did catch chicken pox in there and that set me back quite a bit. I was about nineteen, I suppose, eighteen or nineteen there. Again it was ‘43, late ‘43, that was, and I caught chicken pox and that put me on the sick list for quite a few weeks, you know. I’d be in the isolation hospital for a while as well so that when I came back from leave after sickness, sick leave, I had to go back and do another the course. Because I’d missed so much when I was sick, so I had to go back on another course then. But eventually I travelled from there to, of all things, from Calne in Wiltshire up to Scotland, at West Freugh, which is near Stranraer, which is an initial flying unit and gunnery school as well there. I was still doing gunnery, of course, at that stage, as well, in those days.
DK: Was the idea then, as a wireless operator, you were also an air gunner?
AO: Yes, there was, yeah. WOPAG, yes. Although there was a signaller’s course, but I think they did drop the air gunnery bit eventually but we were still doing it then, air gunnery course, yep. Yes, um, we travelled from Calne. I always remember that journey really well because, well, I’ll go back and tell you one thing I should have mentioned to you in London. I got fed up in London because of the air raids, I had to go in the shelter every night I was there so I was glad to see the back of that and, of all things, when I left Yatesbury, er, we caught the train in Calne and there was a carriage of us, of, of us, travelling up to Scotland. I can’t remember the number, actually, but the carriage was pretty full anyway and, er, we got as far as Bristol and got caught in an air raid there, so got stuck there for two or three hours in the, in an air raid. And so, we eventually moved to the next stop was Crewe where we had refreshments and then carried on to Carlisle, further refreshments there, then on to Stranraer where they picked us up. We didn’t get there until about twenty-seven hours later, it was, the journey took us altogether. And, er, we were rather late getting back into camp, to West Freugh, and there was police there. There was transport for us there that picked us up at the station. Then from West Freugh, I suppose — I’m trying the think how long we were there for, er, about two months I suppose it’d be, roughly, there, yeah. And I finished the — I think I did more gunnery there, probably, than anything else. We did do quite a bit of wireless work, flying out over the Atlantic, over Northern Ireland on the radio, in the Ansons there. And, er, one situation was, we had an engine failure with, with no land in sight anywhere so we had to go back to the nearest airfield there was and it happened to be Tiree. We was, we was stuck there for about five days whilst they flew another engine out that had gone US with us, you know. And, er, then after then we finished there and I went to my first OTU, on to Wellingtons at Peplow, in Shropshire. That would be around about 1945, August, early August in ‘44 that would have been. Yeah, we were in Peplow for — we started training then, more or less, straight away in Peplow and, um, unfortunately I’d been there a week or two and my sister got killed in an accident, you know, so I had some leave at that time to come home for a few days and then I returned to Peplow, but not long afterwards — let’s see — the airfield was rather, one of the boggiest sort of places, very — and it wasn’t very suitable for the aircraft or they didn’t seem to be and they decided to close it down and they moved us to, well, to various OTUs all over the place and ours was the one to, our group went to, er, Lichfield, which was 27 OTU, that was. And as a matter of fact, that was a very good base to get to because they were mostly Canadians and Australians there and, of course, the food was a lot better than what we’d been used to. Obviously they were getting a lot more imported food from somewhere, anyway, for them particularly, the Canadians there. And it was a very good base to work, and my flight commander was an Australian as well, Squadron Leader McIntyre. I’ll always remember him. And that’s where we finished our OTU with him. Not long after being in Lichfield, I was having problems, or we were having a bit of problem with the navigator a little bit, because my fixes and bearings that I was getting on the radio weren’t, tying, tying up completely with the position the navigator was getting on his, on his Gee chart and I thought it must be me. I kept double checking everything I was doing and couldn’t find what I was going, doing wrong but, anyway, one morning coming back after a training flight — quite a long flight it was, about 4.30 in the morning we got back — and, er, the navigation officer was waiting outside the aircraft for us and he said, ‘I want you all in my office.’ he said, ‘Before you have your breakfast.’ And, er, he said to the navigator, he said to go through his chart again, with his fixes and that, and what he was getting on this Gee, Gee reading. You had to get two readings and you got different coloured lines [inaudible] on the Gee chart and he was going along each one with a pencil and then coming back again, taking quite some considerable time really, whereas he should, should be able to do it a few seconds but he was taking quite a long time doing it. He said, ‘What are you doing that for?’ He said, ‘I can’t see the different coloured lines.’ And that was the answer to his problem, you see.
DK: I’m assuming he was colour blind or —
AO: He was colour blind, yep. Yeah, he was colour blind, yeah, and —
DK: I mean it should have been identified earlier, in his medicals?
AO: Yeah. In fact they checked his records, the, the, er, navigation leader checked his records and, of all things, it was recorded in his medicals and he was only to be trained as a navigator but, of course, when he, when he joined up it didn’t matter. I suppose that he was colour blind but, of course, when Gee came out, it did and he just couldn’t tell the difference. The reds and greens, I think he was confused completely you know.
DK: Yes. Colour blind is reds and greens.
AO: And he just could not — and that’s why it was taking such long a long time then, of course, to get his fixes. By, by the time he got his fix sorted out, we’d travelled probably another ten or twelve miles or more, yeah. So we had another, er, a spare navigator then. He, he had come from Pep— yeah, from Peplow with us actually, he had been, and he was the sole survivor of a mid-air crash in Wellingtons. He was a fly— flying officer and he was a very, very — well, probably one of the best navigators I ever flew with. He was a very good navigator. He was a maths teacher, I think, before the war and, er, Flying Officer Junior, Jock Junior his name was, and he only flew a few trips but his nerves broke down again with him on, er, one very bad night, we had on a cross country trip and it was very wet, gale force winds were blowing, and we had a bit of trouble really getting back to base because we were facing a head wind of over a hundred miles an hour, sort of thing, in this gale, you know, at that height and unfortunately he cracked up completely after that. So, so we had to get another navigator then, that was our third one, to start all over again and this — we’d already been in OTU, how long now? I’m trying to think back now, probably, er, six weeks probably, another month or two, yeah, we’d been in OTU nearly three months at that stage. We should have been finishing it nearly. We got an Australian navigator then and that seemed fine but, of course, had to go through the whole course again with the navigator and, er, it was the end of the year or early January before we finished our OUT, then, at Huddersfield. Early January ‘45 that would have been. And we went from there then, at that period, into a Conversion Unit, Heavy Conversion Unit. He wants the name there.
DK: OK. OK.
AO: Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, onto Lancasters, and that was a different aircraft altogether, you know, a different world completely from the Wellington. I wasn’t all that keen on the Wellington because we’d had so many problems and so many losses at OTU, [inaudible] the casualty rate was horrendous sometimes.
DK: Was that your first close-up of a Lancaster then, was it?
AO: Yeah, in Lindholme, yes it was.
DK: What was your first impressions when you saw it?
AO: Yes because it was a very big aircraft too. Your first impression as you walk up to it, you know, a massive thing. And the first flight or two I had — it was a different thing altogether. It was a beautiful aircraft to fly in, comfortable and —
DK: Did you feel more confident?
AO: Oh, far more confident. A lot more, yes. The Wellington had been, been troublesome. We’d had lots of problems with them, you know, maintenance-wise, where probably the aircraft were worn out, most of them, as well but there was a lot of problems with them. And as soon as you got in a Lancaster — I remember one of the first flights I had to do very early on, was with another pilot who was taking another trainee pilot with him. For some reason they got me as a wireless operator because he couldn’t fly multi-engine aircraft. They had a wireless operator, of course, in them days. That was one of the [inaudible] you had to be, so they got me out of the office somehow and I went off with them on this flight and I always remember the, the feathering engines in turn for practicing and it was still a stable aircraft, you know, altogether and they feathered, I think it was, it was three engines eventually, and then the very first one that they started, failed to start so they had to get the other two started quickly —
DK: At one point you were flying on one engine?
AO: On one engine, yes. But it was still, it was still manageable that was, that aircraft, yes. You would, er, you would probably have travelled, according to the instructor, quite a distance but losing height gradually, it would have gone quite a long way on the one engine. But, anyway, they got the other two engines going and we made a landing on three engines with no problem at all. And I heard them saying that the balance was — wasn’t a lot different to the full engines from losing one engine there on the one side and, possibly, if you lost both, both engines on one side I think it wouldn’t, I think the aircraft would still be manageable but you’d trim it, you know, to being able to fly it reasonably straight and level, yeah, but it was such a big improvement, you know, from the Wellington. It was a very big step, it was. And then, eventually, from Lindholme, we went then to — how long were we there, at Lindholme? I’m trying to think now, um, probably about a month or so I should think, at Lindholme. Yeah, it might have been longer, might have been six weeks, I should think, there at Lindholme altogether, because it was January, or late January, when we got there to start the training. And then at that stage, of course, there seemed to be a lot of air crew coming through the training system at that stage as well. There was a lot of us about and, er, I suppose they were looking for a base to send us to and they sent us to Sturgate for a short period, and it was a holding unit for air, for air crew. We were there only a few days. It didn’t seem many days before we were posted to Scampton, to 153 Squadron. But we settled in there very, very quickly, there was no — well, going from Lancaster to Lancaster, there was no problem. It was a good base, Scampton. Well it was one of the pre-war bases. A good building, good accommodation there, the food was excellent as well there and we were well looked after. And we had a Canadian wing commander, squadron commander there, er, Wing Commander Powley and, er, he met us, introduced himself to us as soon as we got there. But a lot of new crews came in, in March that — and I think it was the worst, probably the worst period in the history of the squadron, March and early April. We lost, in March alone, we lost seven Lancasters and the crews and there were two more Lancasters that were struck off charge. They were so badly damaged they weren’t worth repairing. As a matter of fact, my, a friend of mine, a Flight Lieutenant Wheeler (he was a pilot), I remember him saying — I think it was about that period when he had a third, very bad mishap. He was shot at by night fighters and I think the third one, I think he had to leave it. He had to make a forced landing back of the lines in Belgium and got back about three days later. And I remember, what was his name? Flight, Flight Lieutenant Baxter, the engineering officer, er, going out the mess one morning and having breakfast where Wheeler was, and his crew members with him, or two or three of them were, having breakfast there and he tapped, and Baxter tapped him on the shoulder just as he was going out and said, ‘Wheeler, if you’re going to carry on like this I’m going to start charging you.’ He said. [laugh] I always remember that bit. And then, of course, our very, our first raid — well, I’ll go back to where we were losing these aircraft and Powley then decided to put his name down on the next battle order and, er, I think he felt morale probably getting — people were getting a bit jumpy, all these losses in, in one month. And, unfortunately for Powley, he took John Gees crew and he was shot down, well, a few days later. Early April that was, in, er, on a mining trip. And on another aircraft, Flight Lieutenant Winder was with him, a deputy flight commander. He — they were both lost. Two out of five aircraft went and two were lost and he was one of them and then, a few days later, we, er, I went on a Kiel raid then, that was our first trip out that was on —
DK: That, that was your first operation?
AO: Our very first trip, yep.
DK: How, how did you feel before that as your first operation? Can you remember your sort of feelings of —
AO: Yes, I was just feeling anxious to get on with the job as much as anything, get the war over with, sort of thing because we could see the war was coming to an end, at that stage, and we’d just started as well having, er, lectures on survival. And the Tiger Force were planning to go out there, to the Far East, of course, at that time. It would have been just about that period it would have been, early April time, I suppose when we —
DK: So, um, Tiger Force was actually mentioned quite early on then, before the defeat of Germany?
AO: Well, before the defeat of Germany, definitely, yes it was. Yes, we were having it on — the plan was once Americans, I think if I remember rightly, it was a long time ago now, but once Okinawa was cleared, you know, of Japanese that was, sort of, one of the nearest islands we’d get to get near Japan. That was the idea of it, I think, initially. We wouldn’t have very far to travel from Okinawa.
DK: So, you were always expecting, after Germany, you’d go out to the Far East?
AO: Yeah, within a short period of time we thought, you see, yeah, within —
DK: Sorry, I’m interrupting there, but back to Kiel as your first raid and after that —
AO: Yes, after that. Yeah, the first raid, as I say, we went to Kiel and, um, I always remember that, because obviously, the first one very well and we were carrying, I think, twelve or fourteen five hundred pounders and a four thousand pounder and then it might have been four two fifties, I think it was, two fifty pounders. They were armour piercing bombs. The idea was, we were after the submarine pens ideally [cough] and then I remember the approach of it very well. We hadn’t met much ak-ak fire on the way, one or two, particularly as you turned. We turned different legs, zig zag course, of course. We didn’t go direct to Kiel but did a zig-zag course to it, of course, and we did come across ak-ak fire in one or two places we weren’t pleased with, but getting to Kiel seemed very quiet and I could see the time was, zero time was coming up for our target time, and there was no sign of the master bomber and there was nothing at all, and I could see pretty well in the dark, but there were no markers or anything going down and there was the one searchlight, a stationary searchlight, immediately in front of us. I always remember it was a master searchlight which has a bluish tinge to it and, um, I thought, ‘I don’t like the looks of that at all.’ It was directly in front of us, in our flight, and a few miles ahead and before we got to it, it went off, switched off, and blow me, immediately we got over it, it switched itself back on again and we were caught right in the middle of the beam and, of course, the other searchlights came on to us and we were caught in the beam. But at that stage we’d started our bomb run from the Kiel canal and we were going up to the submarine pens, but still no markers going down. But just at that point, as well, everything seemed to happen at once. The master, master, bomber’s voice came over to bomb the centre of the greens. We saw the markers going down and he said immediately bomb, bomb the centre of the greens, so we carried on with our, er, bombing run, got it completed and, of course, once the bombs had gone, been released, from the Lanc, I felt the four thousand bomber go because that was under my feet because I was standing on my — on the seat above me. I felt that actually go because the aircraft just went.
DK: Could you feel the aircraft go?
AO: Yeah. We had several probably, and two or three under my feet and then, um, we went to corkscrew immediately after. We didn’t have time to take a photograph of the actual — from a photoflash and, er, we corkscrewed out of that one and we dropped about two or three thousand feet and, for some reason, all the searchlights went off all of a sudden. The master searchlight went off. Whether the power plant had been hit, that’s the only thing I can think of, but why would a power plant supply all the other different searchlights as well? I don’t know why they went off but they did.
DK: You’d think there’d be a separate supply, wouldn’t you?
AO: Yeah. You’d thought so but I don’t know, never did find out. But I was just glad to get out of the master searchlight. That was the main thing because he’d locked on to us, you see, with a radar controlled searchlight. And then from, as I say, once that had gone off we gradually pulled out of the, er, pulled out of this corkscrew and gradually climbed back on to course again to fly, to fly over sort of Denmark, to the North Sea. And while pulling out, oddly enough, we were flying back over Denmark, over Kattegat, and it was just where our squadron commander was shot down a few nights before. I didn’t know that at the time, I found that out afterwards. And then we got back, you know, and no aircraft were lost, not in our squadron, anyway, that night, but there was a few, quite a few others got shot down but we all got back safely. And then, er, I eventually carried on from there to — I was going to say, on the Tiger Force but, er, we were still having these lectures, not many, just a few. I can’t even remember how many we had now but there were a few of them. And mainly if you were shot down in the jungle, what to eat, what not to eat, jungle survival, in other words. And then, on the, around the 21st the April, I’m pretty sure that was about the right date, when Lord Trenchard came to visit the base, you know, to give us a pep talk, supposedly. Well, at that period we were still doing some practice dropping of food supplies for Holland, you know, for the Manna drops. We, we were certainly doing them at that stage. We’d just about got it sorted out by then because there was some mistakes made. One of them was, a week or two before Lord Trenchard came — I’m trying to think of the guy’s name, Flight Lieutenant — oh dear, dear. He only died two or three years ago. His name will come to me in a minute. Langford, his name was. He went off to do a demonstration at an airfield to show some top brass how it was done, and he went badly wrong, unfortunately.
DK: Was that dropping food?
AO: Dropping the food supplies that was, yep. I don’t know what sort of containers he was dropping because I wasn’t there at that point, but I know it went badly wrong. I don’t know what happened but, er, he nearly dropped it all on the staff car and all the brass had to run for their lives [laugh] and get out the way. But anyway, by the time Lord Trenchard came, about 21st of April we’d got it and we gave a demonstration for him in the morning, er, and I’m trying — now I can’t remember whether we had our parade before then or after. Oh, I think it was after then, we did this demonstration for the food dropping for him, the Manna drop, when Lord Trenchard came for that bit for the day and I remember we had to put our best uniforms on, of course, you know, all these buttons and brass, badge and everything else, all of us to greet him on the parade ground and he inspected us on, on the parade ground. Late in the morning that was, and we gave a demonstration for him which went very well, on food dropping, to give him some idea how it would work. Then, after lunch that day, he, um, he give us this talk in the station cinema. He had, he had — by then there was another squadron at Scampton, 625 had arrived, only, not many days, or a week or two before. So there was two squadrons based there and we all had to pile into the station cinema and he, um, gave us this pep talk to congratulate us on the work that we’d been doing and so forth, and then he said, ‘Anybody think [inaudible] time on Tiger Force, I’m afraid you won’t be going off, not, not immediately’ he said, ‘because if the Russians don’t stop in Berlin, Bomber Command will be the first line of defence, you know, as a reserve there, so we’re holding you back into reserve for that period.’ So, I thought, ‘Blow me. That’s my Far East trip has gone to pot now then.’ That’s the first thing I thought straight away.
DK: Was there a, a genuine worry, then, that the, the Russians would have kept going west?
AO: Well, there was, there was quite a bit of talk in the mess about it which — and there was, there was a fear of it, that the Russians would not stop there. They’d keep going west. And, er, I think Patton had got that idea as well and I think he was prepared for it, General Patton. I think he was —
DK: How did that make you feel then, that there could have been a continuing war, not just the Germans but the Russians and then the Japanese?
AO: Yes, we thought the European war would never be done because I could see the Russians would have taken some beating, although at least by that stage we had a lot American fighters for protection at that stage as well, which was quite good, er, and in quite large numbers as well and also the latest Spitfires, of course, with the Griffin engines and that in them. They were a better aircraft altogether for defence and escort and that’s why I thought going to the Far East, I thought it would have been fine going to the Far East because, obviously, the defence of Japan was nothing like the Germans had and also the Americans had a very good escort, a fighter escort there. But anyway, that had to go to pot, that idea, out of our heads anyway. And we didn’t have a lot more lectures after that regarding the, the Tiger Force. It went very quiet around I remember. I don’t remember having many after because that put the tin hat on it, I suppose you might say.
DK: Obviously Tiger Force never came about because of the dropping of atomic bombs, did that make you sort of feel — how, how did that make you feel that the war wasn’t going to continue in the Far East?
AO: Well, you see, we were still hoping to go to the Far East, of course, until the atomic bomb was dropped but, er, when things settled down in Europe as it — much better than they anticipated I think, at the time, because if the Russians still kept going it would have been a huge problem obviously. But, er, of course, at that stage the, military-wise, we were pretty strong and the Americans were, of course, at that stage so that we just couldn’t see the Russians making much of an advance with the opposition that we’d got in front of them, particularly the air power as well on our side at that stage, and anyway we were still hoping to be able to go to the Far East, oh, right until probably end of, end July, early August. When was the atomic bomb? Middle of August, something like that.
DK: Early August the bomb was dropped.
AO: Once they dropped the atomic bomb and that was it. I thought, ‘That’s it, the war’s finished now.’ That’s —
DK: How did you feel at that point, relief?
AO: Yes, I suppose. I don’t know the feeling I had about that because we were quite happy, I certainly was, I was quite happy with the Air Force life. I hoped to stop in it for quite a while.
DK: How many operations did you actually do over Europe?
AO: I only did seven all together, yep.
DK: And were Manna drops —
AO: Manna drops as well, but the Manna drops, the very last one actually was on May the 8th , and if you look on, on the internet you can find out through Pathe News records there’s a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s cathedral on VE Day morning and, oddly enough, it’s got to be us going over St Paul’s because when — after briefing that morning, I remember my pilot said, ‘I’ve just had a word with the squadron commander,’ he said, ‘and I’ve asked him for permission to fly over London this morning to see if there’s any celebrations going on.’ And he said, ‘Yes, no problem at all, so long as you behave yourselves, you know.’ And, er, we flew down over London that morning, early morning, and you can find out on, on the internet these days and it’s got to be Lancaster ‘C’ Charlie from 153 Squadron. I’m pretty sure it’s that one and we were on our last journey to Holland, on our very last trip on VE Day morning, and of course the end of the war came back and I don’t remember —
DK: Just going back to the Manna drops do you remember, um, seeing the Dutch people?
AO: Oh yes, the Manna trip, very much so, yes, particularly on the — well, the first one was a race course in, um, in the Hague was the very first one, and then, yes, the last one wasn’t — and then the rear gunner said next time I’m going to take my camera and take some shots, you see, because we were flew very, very low level at that stage. You can read the time on the church clock as we went by, you know. We were low enough for that.
DK: The only reason I say that because I met, a few years ago, a Dutch lady, who was a girl at that time, and she was in awe of the RAF coming over dropping the food. She was only eight or nine at the time and she said she was reduced to eating tulip bulbs and daffodil bulbs and said, you know, seeing the planes come over and the Germans who were still there not firing on you. That was a huge relief to her.
AO: Yes. Yes, they had the ak-ak guns silenced. You can see the guns traversing round following us, you see, but they didn’t fire and, um, I saw several Germans of course, with their rifles on their shoulders, you know, bicycling about on the roads and that. I saw two or three of those about and, er, as I said, but the Dutch people there, how they didn’t get injured I’m sure. They were running on the fields, picking food sometimes, and the food was dropping round them, some of them, particularly in Rotterdam that was, more than the Hague I think, if I remember rightly, because the next three drops was at, at Rotterdam it was and the last one of the war was on VE Day morning was at, er, at the Hague, that was the racecourse at the Hague, yeah. But there was, they were waving to us, you know, and cheering like mad, the Dutch people were, and rushing on the field, on the edge of the food, picking this food up and it was still dropping from the air.
DK: It must have been a marvellous sight, seeing you come over, dropping the food?
AO: Yeah, it must have been for them to see all these aircraft coming close together, you know, and very, very low level, about two hundred feet or —
DK: What she said to me, she said that what, what really gave them confidence was looking, seeing the Germans not firing on your aircraft and knowing it would all be over soon.
AO: Yeah, but the biggest shock I had really, on looking back on that, was how much of Holland was under water, been flooded and it was dreadful, it really was. Why the Germans did that, at that stage of the war, when the war was more or less lost, and then to breach the dykes like they did. It looked to me as if half of Holland was under water, you know, but you could see vast areas of it, just farm houses, you know sticking up, and that’s where they were. Yeah.
DK: So the war’s ended now, um, how, how did your RAF career go on after that? Were you in the RAF for much longer?
AO: I stayed in till the following year. We, we were fortunate because we were — they picked several crews out. I think it was, how many? Eight or ten crews, to do field trials, or user trials, on H2S Mark 4. Yeah, we went, started on that, just about when the atom bomb was dropped there. Once the end of the war came then we were transferred under that, more or less straight away, to do that work and then the Squadron, 153 Squadron and 46 was disbanded in September, I think it was, September ’45 and I don’t know what happened to a lot of the crews but we were, the ones that had been chosen to do the field trails on H2S Mark 4, we were transferred to 12 Squadron at Binbrook.
DK: And was this your entire crew that moved over so they were all the same guys?
AO: Yeah, Ted Miles our navigator, was an Australian and —
DK: So you got yet another navigator [slight laugh]?
AO: Yeah, we had to get another navigator at that stage, yep, and Mark Bass, he went but, oddly enough, I think just before the end of war, as I understood it from [inaudible] I had been recommended for a commission, and also my navigator had as well, and he was — but, of course, the end of the war came and the Air Force more or less put everything on hold regarding, er, any promotions at that stage because, obviously, there was a lot of surplus crews about all over the place, all over the world virtually, and then the Australians and Canadians, the bulk of those would be going home. Well, Mark, my navigator, he went to, to pick his commission up. His was, er, carried through. He had to go to London, I suppose, to the, to the Australian — what do you call the —
DK: The embassy?
AO: Well, yeah. Not the embassy, you called them. Well, I’m trying to think what they called them in them days, but anyway, he picked up his, um, commission up and he, he didn’t come back to squadron again. He, you know, more or less went straight back to Australia on the next boat home I think, so he didn’t stay here long at all. So, unfortunately, we didn’t see him to — see him before he went, you know. We assumed he was coming back from London but that wasn’t the case, unfortunately, and then we had another navigator, of course, from then onwards, and another spare one, because all, as I say, nearly all the Canadians and Australians went back. But our signals leader, who I was very friendly with, was a New Zealander but he stayed on to the end, until the squadron disbanded. But what happened to him after that I don’t know because we went off to Binbrook and he went in another direction somewhere and, er, we stayed there at Binbrook then until ’46 before the trials had finished, all these H2S trials.
DK: Where were the trials done then? The H2S Mark 4 trials?
AO: Yeah this was, this — we finished the trials. Most of them were — well, we went all over the country doing the trials, all over the place, in all weather conditions as well. Also taking a lot of photographs of the screen itself to record the various towns and cities all over the country as well.
DK: Just in the UK?
AO: Mostly in the UK, yeah. And, er, when that was finished some — I came out then. I was under, under Class B, because they wanted me back home, unfortunately. Class B was a reserved occupational status again. I should have came back and agriculture came back very early compared with some of the other crew and they stayed on. They were on Lincolns then, flew on Lincolns.
DK: How did you feel about leaving the RAF at that point?
AO: I wasn’t very happy, no. No, well, I was quite happy where I was. I was doing a flying job there, which I thoroughly enjoyed, flying quite often, not every day but quite very often anyway and I was quite happy to stay in the Air Force and, er, I was considering a life probably in the Air Force but anyway they wanted me back home again. Let’s see, my father had died 1940, then my sister in ‘44 and I think it left my mother in a rather tight hole, so there was nothing for it but for me to come back home farming and I then stuck to farming the rest of my life.
DK: So how old were you by the time the war had finished then?
AO: I’d be twenty-one in, um, in end of, end of November ‘45.
DK: Not even twenty-one? [slight laugh]
AO: [slight laugh] Yes, yes.
DK: So, from then onwards was, has your life been on the farm?
AO: Yes, mostly I’ve been on the farm since then, yep, but same farm. I came to this house here, I came here in 1957 I came here, so I’ve been here ever since.
DK: Have you, have you remained in touch with your crew at all or —
AO: Yes. I keep touch. As I say, my navigator died about four or five years ago but I was constantly in touch and went to visit him in Australia as well. And my pilot is still alive. He lives in Majorca at the moment, but unfortunately the poor chap’s got Parkinson’s disease and he’s very, very deaf as well, probably due to the Lancaster engine noise, probably. I don’t know. And the other, the rear gunner, I was in touch with him. I picked — I lost contact with him altogether. He was in the farming world and I picked him up about — not far from Duxford, he lived in the end of the days but his life was a bit of a tragedy. He’d been adopted and his life was messed up completely and going from one place to another and had a lot of problems with family life and he died a few years ago. I did go and visit him a year or two before he died. And then the rest of the crew I haven’t been touch at all with them. I say, I knew, once, the bomb aimer, Norman Kirkman. He was a professional footballer before the war. I think Preston or Burnley, one or the other. Preston I think it was, and he came to, er, visit on a weekend in Leeds with my old pilot. But me and the pilot, old pilot and navigator, were the only ones in touch all the time, constantly in touch, while we could and were healthy enough to travel about. And Bill Edmonds came from Australia each year for several years to the reunion in Lincoln.
DK: Do you still attend the union— reunions, the reunions for your squadron, do you still attend those?
AO: Yes. We used to travel — when they first had them at the war. They started the reunions more or less after the end of the war and I missed the out first ones few to start with and they used to travel about to different parts of the country each year, er, in February-time. And then my first one was about, around about, 1956 I went to Doncaster. They had one there. And from then onwards it — a great lot of guys to be with, of course, been with them during the war years and they were good company to be with, all these fellas, you know. And, um, from then onwards we went to — oh, we went to Grimsby twice, er, Grimsby, then Cleethorpes, er, and then we decided then travelling was so bad in the winter, February-time. We were caught in a very bad winter there and we decided to have it a bit later in the year, in May, and stick to Lincoln and have it in the — what was the Grand Hotel in Lincoln. Because The Saracen’s Head was the place we used to mostly to congregate mostly in Lincoln of course, near the bridge there but it’s not any more. I don’t know what it is these days now. The other place we’d congregate, if you could get through the door, because it was packed with aircrew all the time. But then I stuck to farming life then for, for right up until twenty years ago, twenty-odd years ago. I retired then when I was sixty-five, twenty-five, twenty-six years ago coming up now it is, yeah.
DK: How do you feel now looking back after all these years about, you know, your period with the Air Force and Bomber Command is it something you, you know, you look at with pride and [inaudible]
AO: Yes. It was, it was a period of my life I wouldn’t have missed it for anything, that period of my life, yep. It was a good eye opener and also for me to meet an awful lot of people, you know.
DK: OK. I’ll stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Taff Owen
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOwenA150603
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:52:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Aneurin ‘Taff’ Owen was born neat Dolgellau, near Penmaenpool in Wales, and joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18 in 1942. Taff was a farmer’s son and as such was put into a reserved occupation, so some of the areas of the Royal Air Force were not open to him. He became a wireless operator/air gunner after his training in 1942. He tells of his sighting of his first aircraft at the age of nine and of seeing a travelling flying circus, which fanned his love of flying. Whilst he was training, he flew in Dominie biplanes before progressing onto Proctors. He tells of flying in Ansons and going to 27 Operational Training Unit in RAF Lichfield flying in Wellington bombers before serving in a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Lindholme on Lancaster. He then transferred to 153 Squadron based at RAF Scampton. His tells about his first trip which was an operation on the submarine pens in Kiel and he tells of his training for Operation Manna and the food drops into the fields in Holland. He also says that the image on Pathe News showing a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s on VE Day is the Lancaster he was in at the time. He tells of catching chicken pox and having to repeat his courses, his problems with a navigator who was colour blind, and the heavy losses experienced at the Operational Training Unit. After the war, in 1946, despite wanting to stay in the Air Force, he returned to farming, retiring when he was 65 years of age.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Kiel
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-08
153 Squadron
27 OTU
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
demobilisation
Dominie
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military living conditions
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lindholme
RAF Peplow
RAF Scampton
RAF West Freugh
RAF Yatesbury
recruitment
searchlight
submarine
Tiger force
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1064/11520/AParkeRG161019.1.mp3
a6c231d8feaa86fb5a16ca4352d65ea2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parke, Ray
Ray G Parke
R G Parke
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Ray Parke (b. 1925, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 218 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parke, RG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: David Kavanagh, International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Raymond, Ray Parke at his home, 19th October 2016. [unclear] Very much.
US: Ok.
RP: Alright, I’ve just looked at me logbook. [unclear] Unfortunately most of the story was written down here,
DK: Oh! [laughs]
RP: He was my navigator.
DK: Oh, ok.
RP: And this is the crew.
DK: If I just put that down there, is that ok? Let’s hope it’s not too [unclear]
RP: Yes, yes. [unclear]
DK: Ah, so which one are you then? Right, ok. So that was your crew then, was it?
RP: That’s right, yes.
DK: You name, still name them all?
RP: OH yes. George Klenner, the skipper, Australian, George Bell, wireless operator, Les Walker, navigator, Paul Songest, mid upper, Paul McCalla, rear gunner, and Miles Tripp, bomb aimer.
US: You’re the only one left now [laughs].
RP: I’m the only one left now. They’ve all gone.
DK: So what’s the name of the rear gunner, sorry?
RP: That’s Miles Tripp.
DK: Miles Tripp, yes. So, he’s written that book.
RP: That’s right, yes, and that’s just the story of how he phoned us all up and then recalled the various trips we did.
US: Yes.
DK: Oh, ok.
US: He came [unclear]
DK: Were they all British then your crew?
RP: No, Jamaican and Australian, the rest of them were British, yes, yeah.
DK: That’s quite unusual, Jamaican.
RP: We didn’t get on awfully well, I’m a Norfolk dumpling and he’s a Londoner [laughs] and so and that was quite a laugh at the end, but
DK: Bit of change at the end.
RP: Yeah. [laughs]
US: Excuse me.
RP: That’s the same picture are more or less [unclear].
DK: Alright, ok.
RP: These pictures were taken from you see, this is a news chronicle.
DK: Right, so, just for the benefit of the tape here, so the book’s called the eight passenger,
RP: That’s right, yeah.
DK: A flight of recollection and discovery by Miles Tripp, ok.
RP: Yes, yeah. And I think they got a picture of the Lancaster here somewhere, no, that’s not there, there is something else, no, that’s not there, this newspaper photograph that was taken they day we landed from our fortieth and we were agreed by all the big buicks from number 3 group because we were the only crew in 3 group to complete forty operations in one tour,
DK: Wow!
RP: You know how they extended the tour a couple of times and as soon as we landed they said went back to [unclear] [laughs]
DK: So you did forty operations altogether.
RP: Yes, yeah.
DK: And was that all with 218 Squadron?
RP: Yes, yes.
DK: Ok. Can I just ask then, we are sort of going back a bit, what were you doing immediately before the war?
RP: Before the war, we both worked on the railway.
US: Yeah, you were
RP: She was on the LNER station Norwich and I was on the MGN at Norwich.
US: That’s how we met.
RP: That’s how we met.
US: [unclear]
RP: And I was the messenger and you the [unclear] and so we got together in that way.
DK: Ok. If I keep looking down I’m just checking that the tape’s ok, if that’s alright.
RP: Oh yes.
DK: Yes. [laughs] Sorry, I should have said. So what, so how many years were you working on the railway then?
RP: 1939 till 1943.
US: I 1939 to 1949.
RP: yeah.
US: [unclear]
RP: Yes. So I joined the RAF in 1943, September, you know, the usual thing, ACRC, London, and went through
DK: Just stepping back a bit, what made you want to join the RAF then, was as opposed to the army or navy?
RP: My best friend at school was a man named David [unclear] he was about three or four months older than me and he joined up first, he became a flight engineer and so I wanted to become a flight engineer. But first of all, when I enrolled, you can see, I was rather a different shape, and so they said, well, you are too big to be an air gunner, would you like to be a wireless operator? I said, no, not particularly, and so remustered to become a flight engineer and the test for that, I said, do you anything about engines? I said, no, can you describe for me a cotter pin? Yes, I said, and I described one on a bicycle, oh, that will do, you’re in.
DK: So based on that they decided you could be a flight engineer.
RP: That’s right, yes, yes.
DK: So, what was your initial training, then, as you joined the RAF?
RP: I was just working as a messenger on the railway
DK: Yes, yes. So, once you were in the RAF, what was your training then?
RP: The usual thing, we joined up and then go to ACRC, ITW, OTU, and then St Athans and then engineering instruction at St Athans and from there
DK: You remember which operational training unit you were with?
RP: Yes, there’s an OTU, I can’t remember whether it is 17, yes, yeah. But with the flight engineer, you don’t join the crew until, more or less at our stage, the other five trained separately on smaller aircraft and when they go on to a larger four-engine aircraft [unclear] engineer joins. And that’s the usual procedure then that you’re all put together in a big hall and you are told to get together and sort yourselves out a crew.
DK: Did you think that worked cause it’s rather unusual way of getting the crews together, getting
RP: It seems to work, in my case I was standing by the wall like a wallflower and he came across me and said
DK: Is that your pilot came over
RP: Yes, he said, are you Ray Park? I said, yes. He said, is that you at the top of the list? At first, I said, yes, alright you’re in [laughs]. And from there we did the training, initial training and started along the squadron, 218 Squadron, at Methwold near Norfolk in September ’44 and at that stage I was about eighteen and a half and by the time I was just under twenty I had finished forty operations. So I was one of the youngest at that time.
DK: So can you remember vividly your first operation?
RP: Yes, I can tell you,
DK: [unclear]
RP: It was to Duisburg and it was one of the first thousand bomber operations and ironically our fortieth was another thousand bomber operation. Duisburg, that’s the [unclear] and the [unclear]
DK: Ok, fine. So your first operation then was the fourteenth of October?
RP: That’s right. Yes. [unclear]
DK: That’ll be ok, we’re still picking up. So, fourteenth of October, so the pilots, flying officer
RP: Flying officer Klenner. It was a daytime operation at first and then within the same twenty-four hours a second one, to Duisburg.
DK: Alright, so daytime operation, fourteenth of October to Duisburg and then the same night
RP: Same night
DK: Same night, Duisburg again
RP: Yeah, back to Duisburg, and they were thousand bomber raids and that was our introduction
DK: So your next operations then are, is that the nineteenth of October to Stuttgart.
RP: Yes, a place called Stuttgart.
DK: So twenty fifth of October, Essen.
RP: That’s right.
DK: And then twenty ninth of October, West Kapelle.
RP: West Kapelle, yeah.
DK: And then,
RP: And then, Cologne.
DK: Thirteenth of October, Cologne.
RP: Cologne, yes.
DK: So there’s a lot of operations all in a short space of time.
RP: Yes, in the German part called the Ruhr. Essen, Cologne and places like that and they were the hotspots.
DK: So then it’s November then, so, fourth of November.
RP: November, yes.
DK: Solingen.
RP: Solingen.
DK: Fifth of November, Solingen again. So, twenty third of November, Gelsenkirchen. Twenty six of November, Fulda. Twenty seventh of November, Cologne again. Twenty ninth of November
RP: Cause it’s difficult to remember the individual ones, [unclear] some of them in here. The most tight one as far as I am concerned was Dresden, that was, very [unclear] choice but that was much later on.
DK: So just, as your role as a flight engineer then, what were your duties on the
RP: Flight engineer was really the second pilot, you sit alongside the pilot and mine, your main job is to look after the engines and keep the fuel running and anything that’s needed in, I’ll show you a picture of the engineer’s panel, that was my domain, you see, with all the [unclear] and then I had to help with take-off and landing, undercarriage and on the flaps, and bomb, what they called?
DK: Bomb doors.
RP: Bomb doors, yeah. And as the pilot takes off, so my hand comes up behind him and takes over with the throttles and likewise coming back, wheels down with the [unclear] bomb doors open, that sort of thing.
DK: So what were you actually trained on then? Was it sort of training at the OTU on the Lancasters as well or?
RP: Yes, I did a short while on two engines at Wellingtons and then Stirlings, there’s the first four-engine bomber and I did the initial training on that and at that time I joined up with the rest of the crew and then we all went over and converted onto Lancasters and it was Lancasters for the rest of the time.
DK: So what was your thoughts of the Lancasters then as an aircraft?
RP: Marvellous, yes, wonderful.
DK: So most of these raids were into Germany, aren’t they?
RP: Yes, the only one that wasn’t in Germany was to a place called West Kapelle, in Holland, all the rest were Germany.
DK: So were there any occasions when you, the aircraft was damaged at all [unclear]
RP: Yes, this one here and you’ll see, we were diverted to Dishforth I think, somewhere from Scarborough and we had to, we lost an engine over the target and we couldn’t maintain height and we were coming down slowly but not enough power to maintain our course and a Mustang came along [unclear] and escorting us back across the Channel. And we landed at St Eval in Cornwall and we had to leave the plane behind then because it was too badly damaged.
DK: So had that been hit by flak or [unclear]?
RP: Yes, which had caused damage to the engine which made unsearchable [unclear]
DK: What were your thoughts when you saw a Mustang flying alongside?
RP: Was jolly relieved but I mean, he came down on us, I think he was American, and as we got to St Eval as we were going round he just gave us a two fingers and off he went, we never did know who he was [unclear] at all.
DK: Were you ever attacked by German fighters or?
RP: Oh yes, there were several cases where we were damaged by fighters but most damage was by flak, actually. We were quite fortunate there’s one occasion when the windscreen was smashed and a piece of shrapnel came right through my strap, you know, we had the straps on, but we never did find it,
DK: So it was forty altogether then?
RP: Yes, I’ll tell you the story about the last trip. The commanding officer of our squadron wasn’t very popular and we used to call him ‘The Vicar’, although he’s very experienced pilot, perhaps I shouldn’t say all this.
DK: No, it’s ok [laughs]. What goes public we’ll decide afterwards.
RP: I see. Anyway he said at briefing, “Today chaps it’s Flight Lieutenant Klenner’s last trip and when you get back, you’ll have to be on your best behaviour because we are expecting some visitor and also being the fortieth operation, Klenner will be leading the squadron.” Well, we always used to hate flying in ‘Vic’ formation nobody would ever do it. Anyway we went to the last trip to Essen [unclear] but as soon as we left the target the whole squadron formated (sic) up in ‘Vics’, never ever done it before [unclear]. Something I will never ever forget. I’ll remember that.
DK: So how come you ended up doing forty operations then when the tour was, I think, thirty and then 25?
RP: At the end of 1944 was the Battle of the Bulge, when the German forces broke back through the American sector and we were short of aircrews, the message came through, “We are short of aircrews and aircraft, you will have to do another five operations”. So, we moaned and groaned about it. Anyway, we can’t do anything about it. Carried on did the 35, the same thing happened, “Sorry, we are still short you’ll have to go on and do forty.”
“Oh! No!” Leslie says and he applied to leave straight away, some leave, anyway he came back and then do the other last 5 to forty and the day we got back from that, they rescinded the order, and it went back to normal.
DK: You/d done 40 by then.
RP: Yeah.
DK: So your last operation was March 11th to Essen.
RP: That’s right.
US: [unclear]
RP: Yeah, Duisburg
US: [unclear]
DK: I’ll tell you, I’ll just turn the recorder off for a moment cause.
RP: Witten was another place which was pretty hairy but apart from telling you that with the flak bursts and the [unclear] dodging about when you are flying over the target this is little more light and say and just
DK: So just going back to your training a little bit and when you were flying the Stirlings, what was your thought about those aircraft?
RP: They were awkward, slow aircraft, they wouldn’t fly very high and in fact we [unclear] one off in the, what was that, west [unclear], there was a short runway and I think George was trying to get down to meet his WAAF friend in no time and instead of going round again, he shortcut and we landed in a ditch and whipped the wheels right off. But that’s the only real time [unclear]
DK: What about the Wellingtons before that
RP: The Wellingtons was really, as far as I was, only to get used to flying and, it was just about a couple of weeks [unclear].
DK: So you are quite pleased you never did any operations in the Stirlings?
RP: Oh yes, yes, well, they were getting, this time, you see, was getting on towards the end of 1944 and they were getting a bit obsolete.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. As far as the flight engineer training, that was mostly done at St Athans in Wales, yeah, and well, it was quite separate from, they were all flight engineers down there, that’s what you’d learn.
DK: So what form of training did it, cause you obviously said you weren’t from an engineering background, was it really quite basic to start with?
RP: It was a matter of lectures mostly and studying the
DK: That’s the flight engineer’s notes for Lancaster aircraft.
RP: Yes. That’s mostly ground training, getting used to the engines and the equipment and pictures in the aircraft
DK: So just [unclear], that was your number there then.
RP: Yes.
DK: 300
RP: 5095, yes.
DK: So, number one hundred entry St Athan.
RP: Yes.
DK: So this book is issued by [unclear], is it?
RP: Yes, yes.
DK: The tanks.
RP: We spend some time at the Avro factory in Manchester and you see, we learned all these things, [unclear] and all that sort of things, were all the procedures.
DK: So that’s the drill before taxiing.
RP: Yes.
DK: Drill [unclear] action immediately before take-off. Do you think you could still do that now?
RP: No. I can’t even, I can’t read, when I read them, I can’t even remember them, no.
DK: This is quite a, quite detailed, isn’t it, with your cutaways,
RP: Yes, it was a six month course, I think,
DK: So, you’d be standing in the cockpit there then.
RP: Yes, that’s right. Right next to the pilot.
DK: So, did you, I’ve always wondered what the arrangement was there in the Lancaster because did you actually have a seat or were you standing?
RP: There was a little [unclear] a small deck chair type of thing and it was clipped onto the side of the aircraft and then you bring it over and clip it by the undercarriage and just clip on and just like a small deckchair
DK: So just a piece of canvas, basically.
RP: Piece of canvas, yeah, yeah.
DK: So, how long were you sitting on that for then? Longest operation?
RP: You don’t sit very long, there was always something to do, keep an eye on the engines and anything else. And another thing, cause if the bomb aimer was working with the navigator, he would be behind me as well, there wouldn’t be too much space. And also if we were carrying what we call a dicky pilot, he would want to sit in my seat.
DK: So, how often did you carry the second pilot then?
RP: Oh, three or four times, I suppose, yeah. But we had one occasion where he was rather a bit blusterous, young officer type and before we took off, he questioned us all as to what we did on the aircraft so we all [unclear] him and coming back Diggs, the engineer said, the pilot said, he always had an occasion to fly low when he could, well, he frightened the life out of this dicky pilot coming back and so much so that I think he walked away and didn’t speak to us anymore [laughs].
DK: So what rank was your pilot then, was he
RP: Well, he finished up as a flight lieutenant but when we all first joined he was a sergeant.
DK: Right. How did that work then with the pilot being a sergeant and then still having officers around him?
RP: Well, in our case that tended to split the crew up a little bit when he became an officer but it was an occasion when he tried to smuggle himself into the sergeants mess for a dance and of course the CO caught him [laughs].
DK: I suppose that was a bit difficult when you couldn’t sort of socialize together.
RP: Yeah, well, he was a typical Ozzie so he didn’t [unclear] for anybody.
DK: I just make sure the tape is ok. So, can I have another look at the logbook?
RP: Yeah.
DK: Most of your operations, were they in the same Lancaster or [unclear]
RP: [unclear]
DK: J
RP: Yes, J.
DK: J, A.
RP: J, A most of them were in A. And
DK: And that’s what there’s a picture of in the book.
RP: Yes, yeah. And the last one was K King. This is the navigator’s logbook, not navigator’s, bomb aimer’s.
DK: Alright. So that was your bomb aimers.
RP: Yes, yes. That shows all his training and
DK: Oh, alright, so he’s, so Tripp then was with the Royal Canadian Airforce.
RP: I don’t know, he was trained in Canada but he [unclear]
DK: I see, alright, ok. And it’s him who has written the book.
RP: He, I think he’d must have become a pilot but he didn’t make it so he was finished as a bomb aimer.
DK: So I just ask then about February the thirteenth, you got Dresden.
RP: Dresden.
DK: And then the other raids were to Chemnitz.
RP: That’s right. Dresden was about the longest trip we had, does it tell there how many hours they were?
DK: Nine hours thirty.
RP: Nine hours. And it was the most horrendous fires, seeing the target, it was a fire we could see from miles away and the town was well on fire by the time we arrived there.
DK: So you were in the second wave.
RP: Yes, we were tours at the end of the time but I mean apart from, it is difficult to remember but I don’t recall any [unclear] problems I mean there were times when we were all glad to get out as a way we dropped the bombs and stick our nose down and get away as quick as we could and then the same night we went back to the next door place
DK: Chemnitz.
RP: Chemnitz.
DK: So Chemnitz on the full trip.
RP: Yes. And that was when the Russians were breaking through at Chemnitz into Germany and there was a lot of controversy about too much damage being done.
DK: Was anything mentioned about Dresden at the briefing beforehand?
RP: No, just that we are, all our understanding was that the Russians were making a breakthrough and that was to aid them by making ways to help them through.
DK: So you could see the city alight.
RP: Yes, cause that was mostly an incendiary raid and they were sort of all mostly wooden houses I think and it was a huge raid and the Americans they had about three or four that apart from these two trips they would, the Americans were doing two or three times a day as well.
DK: So can you remember what your load would have been there, would that have been incendiaries?
RP: [unclear]
DK: February the 13th 1945.
RP: Dresden, it doesn’t say.
DK: It doesn’t say, no.
RP: [unclear], I’m sorry, no record. That really wasn’t my department, you see, the bomb aimer was in charge of all that.
DK: So, could you perhaps talk through what a normal day in a raid would take place, when you get up in the mornings and
RP: Yes, that would be the normal, call in the morning in time for breakfast and in the normal way after breakfast you would go to your department, the flight engineer’s department and take what orders you were given and when you gonna test your aircraft or anything, special instructions, and then you would look at the board to see what the crews were on duty for the night and then if your name was on the list you know what time to be prepared and you go and get yourself ready for the briefing and there would be a separate briefing for the pilots and the bomb aimers and navigators and then the general briefing for the rest of us. And then there’d be a question of going to the take-off with the rest of the crew, take your equipment on check on the aircraft, previously they would have perhaps done half an hour flight to check everything was in order and in the time of take-off, my job then was to assist with the take-off sitting alongside the pilot and when the green light comes on to take-off, take off the power as we took off we had one aircraft’s called K King used to swing very, very badly and sort of question of pushing one side up more than the other so to keep the aircraft straight but then we would be taking off and the navigator would take over and find your course, you would climb to height and then you joined the rest of the stream. The first trip we did to Duisburg, we were told, was as to be a thousand bomber raid, we went all through the procedure, we took off and after a while Les, the navigator said to the pilot, turn on to such and such a course and we will join the rest of the stream, so he turned on to the course and then after a little while a voice comes from the back of the plane, that’s Harry in the rear turret, this is a very funny thousand bomber raid, I can’t see a soul up here and there wasn’t another aircraft anyway. And so we pressed on and pressed on and after a while the pilot shouted, what’s, what are those few dots up there end? And there was a crew, rest of the stream [unclear] so we managed to catch them up. Our first trip over Germany found us half way opposed to the target on our own [laughs]. And then there would be the, you know, the bombing run [unclear], the bomb aimer would take over and you’re to give the pilot instructions where to go and after the bomb doors are opened and he would then do his run up, left, left, right, right and then bomb’s gone, door’s shut, door’s up and then the navigator would say, course number so and so and so and you’d turn around and come back, by this time there’s when you’re getting all the flak and the disturbance and little puffs of smoke coming up around about and the bomb’s going down from the planes above and all that sort of thing. And generally when you get clear of the target half an hour just a go for the odd fighter and then after another couple of hours you’re getting towards the coast and generally speaking you were clear and back to land.
DK: So what was your feelings once you got back?
RP: Relieved, we would all sit down and when you land, you sort of [unclear] and you sit down [unclear] before you move to get out the aircraft.
DK: So what’s the debriefing then?
RP: Then you go to the debriefing and you’d have to report on what [unclear] the target and the weather and if the results and all that sort of thing, bomb damage and opposition and it was the aircrew breakfast, eggs and bacon.
DK: I bet you looked forward to that [laughs]
RP: Yes, yes.
DK: So did you, after you’ve done your operations and, did you and the crew tend to stick together and [unclear]
RP: Yes, we did, yes.
DK: Any pubs you went to?
RP: Yes, the one at Chedburgh was called The Greyhound, I used to drink them dry
US: [unclear]
RP: Yes, and then, actually we didn’t, we didn’t go out too much, there wasn’t a lot of time, we are talking about cramming in forty operations between September and 11th of March.
DK: I was gonna say yes, it’s very busy at that period.
RP: Yes.
DK: So your aircraft then was one of the, I noticed in the book, the G-H markings?
RP: Yes.
DK: So was that for daylight operations then? The G-H radar?
RP: Yes, yeah, and as you said, you had the marking on the tail, oh, it’s not on that one, and then you had two followers when you dropped your bombs, they dropped their bombs, that’s because we bombed through cloud, you see.
DK: So that’s the G-H leader with the markings on the tail, they were bombing when you did.
RP: That’s right, yes.
DK: You see the two aircraft following.
RP: Yes, yeah.
DK: So after your forty operations then, what happened to you then?
RP: I became an instructor at a school to teach other people to be instructors, that was at Silverstone, which now of course is a racetrack.
DK: And was that on Lancasters as well?
RP: That was on Lancasters, yes. After the fortieth operation when we all broke up and went our separate ways, I swear I just can’t remember several weeks, you know, what I did, where I went, or did anything.
DK: You think that was perhaps down to stress and
RP: Just stress and relief, yes, but as I say, I was still less than twenty years old, was the youngest of the crew.
DK: So, did you stay in touch with your crew then after that
RP: Yes, we had several reunions that we did and on one occasion we did something like this for a German television program but I never did get to see it.
DK: Ah, alright. Was it ever shown?
RP: It was shown, yes, I heard people have seen it but I didn’t see it myself.
DK: I’ve just turned that off again. So, the Dresden raid.
RP: [unclear] anything try to find it, can you? Here we are, this is Dresden, [unclear] in another book but anyway on the Dresden raid there was a lot of controversy about unnecessary damage and Miles Tripp said quite openly that he deliberately missed the target because he thought there was just too much, I thought that was in here, somewhere.
DK: Page 79, sir. Dresden raid, bombing of Dresden.
RP: [unclear] that must have been another book, anyway he got in trouble about that, he said that he felt unhappy about the raid and he dropped his bombs a long way away from the target, I thought it was in here somewhere, but nobody ever proved that
DK: I see if I can see this, [sneezes] excuse me, chapter ten, chapter nine mentions
RP: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Well, you see, we, Harry the Jamaican, seemed to be able to forecast where we were going before anybody knew anything about it and it, you know, with these Jamaican people, they sometimes are a bit of a sort of clairvoyant and people used to remark, how is it you know, Harry, where we are going? I don’t know, he says, I’m just guessing at but they got to the stage where they tried to test him on it and they went to check where the stream was going and then came back to ask Harry where he thought we were going and then he realised that they were testing him and he wasn’t very happy about it. And, it’s all in here, somewhere.
DK: Do you think he’d have his premonitions or?
RP: No, I think [unclear], I’m sure it’s in here somewhere, yes, something but it was one of those rare mornings in November when the sky is completely blue and there is a false warmth in the air as though spring managed to bypass winter. Harry and I strolled for a small pine wood near the briefing room, kicking stones with our flying boots, without any [unclear], without any preamble he said, last night I dreamed of standing by a tombstone of an old friend, someone who’d been killed in an air crash when I was in Canada, it hadn’t been long before he appeared and held out his hand to greet me I don’t like that sort of dream and there was another occasion when he virtually refused to fly, he wouldn’t get in the plane and as it happened, he, the trip was cancelled but he got the premonition in his line that he wouldn’t fly that particular night and they tried to test him but that wasn’t very successful.
DK: [unclear] Dresden took off at 21.40, [unclear] Dresden.
RP: I’m sure he said somewhere about
DK: Yeah.
RP: [unclear]
DK: He said. There’s, page 85, he says, I told Dig to turn to starboard to the south of the city, he swung the aircraft away from the heart of the inferno and when we were just beyond the fringe of the fires, I pressed the bomb release, I hoped the load would fall in open country and page 85.
RP: Yes.
DK: I couldn’t forget what we’ve been told at briefing, all the old newsreel of the German dive-bombing. Here.
RP: Yeah.
DK: So when you got back then, was it questioned where you’d bombed then?
RP: No, this, this all came up later on, I think. that’s right, he said that when we got to the target there was no, no markers and he said, there was no sign from the master bomber and there were no flares marking the target.
DK: So how do you look back on that now, then?
RP: No, that’s all gone, yeah. In retrospect, it was at this point I became something like mercenary, just a night trip, the quiver of outrage at the briefing for Dresden dropping the bombs clear of the, in the hope that they would fall harmlessly in fields was a last gesture to an ideal of common humanity. To be honest, I’m not sure which I find more distasteful, actually the idea of bombing refugees or the idea that the Allies were bombing refugees it was all right but when the Germans bombed refugees it was all wrong.
DK: So that’s from, it’s just for the recording, that’s a quote from Miles Tripp book, page 89.
RP: That’s right, page 89, yeah.
DK: So he obviously had even then concerns, didn’t he? Did he, did you sort of talk about it after the war at all or as you say, it was just
RP: Well, I suppose half a dozen times we met after the war
US: Oh yes, yeah.
RP: So, that wasn’t really the occasion to, talk about that sort of thing.
DK: No, no.
US: Then we went down to see him
RP: Yes, yes.
DK: So, whereabouts was he living then?
RP: Barnet
US: Histon, Hertfordshire.
RP: Hartfield.
US: Hartfield, yes.
DK: So, has he passed away quite recently or?
RP: It was a few years ago, at that time when we were flying he’s, he was going with a WAAF in the control tower and I think they got married, didn’t he, eventually but and at normal times we had, he used to, during the times we weren’t flying, he’d go to stay at the Angel hotel, where his lady friend but there were times where we had to rush out and get him back in time and we had two or three old motorbikes in the crew then, we used to run on a hundred octane and we had to chase him and bring him back.
US: It’s going back then
DK: Ok, well that’s, [unclear] oh, thanks very much for that, that’s very good. So was there a big fuss made of the fortieth operation?
RP: Oh yes, yeah, and the annoying thing was that, when the squadron was disbanded shortly after the war, everything was destroyed, I’ve never been able to find anything of the squadron records of 218.
DK: No?
RP: And I’ve never found anything about people happen to do more than thirty operations.
DK: Yeah. I mean, it is unusual but, I’ve met people who have done like sixty or more operations in two tours.
RP: That’s right yeah.
DK: Not seen [unclear] like that.
RP: But the thing about this is in less than six months.
DK: Yeah.
RP: [unclear]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ray Parke. One
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AParkeRG161019
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:46:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ray Parke worked on the railway before joining the RAF in 1943. Remembers flying forty operations as a flight engineer with 218 Squadron by the time he was twenty. Tells about operations on Essen and the Ruhr. Discusses the Dresden operation, giving a vivid first-hand account of it; tells of how Miles Tripp, the bomb aimer, expressed doubts about the operation and tried to drop the bombload away from the target. Remembers his first operation on Duisburg and the last one, both being thousand bomber attacks. Tells of his crew members: Harry McCalla, the Jamaican rear gunner, who was rumoured to possess clairvoyant abilities. Mentions becoming an instructor at RAF Silverstone, after his fortieth operation.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Solingen
Germany--Stuttgart
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
218 Squadron
African heritage
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
displaced person
flight engineer
Gee
Lancaster
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
P-51
perception of bombing war
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Methwold
RAF Silverstone
RAF St Athan
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1076/11534/APlantG160216.1.mp3
fb988e2a9e31e02ff23df9abb4b51c00
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Plant, George
G Plant
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Plant. He was at Caythorpe in Lincolnshire during the war and witnessed a Lancaster crash.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Plant, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing George Plant, an air crash witness, the 16th of February 2016. I’ll just leave that there.
GP: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working.
GP: Oh right.
DK: So I’m not being rude or anything.
GP: No. No. That’s fine.
DK: Ok. Ok. So, so just going back then. 1940s. What were you doing at that time? Were you at school or had you left school? Or —
GP: Well, I had left school when I was there. I was working on the farm.
DK: Ok.
GP: I lived at Caythorpe Heath. Worked on the farm and —
DK: So you’ve always lived in this area.
GP: More or less. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
DK: And what were you doing on the farms?
GP: Well, at that time working horses mainly. And, you know general labouring.
DK: Ok. So how old would you have been about that time?
GP: I would, at that time I would be seventeen.
DK: Ok. So, how much of the, once the bombing campaign started and all the airfields opened up around Lincolnshire what do you remember about, about that?
GP: Well, I remember seeing, I mean because we weren’t far from Cranwell you know I remember seeing all the planes training there. And also seeing bombers flying over, you know from various places. Scampton and all up there. And also when a lot of the paratroopers were stationed around here as well.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Stoke Rochford and all around here. And you’d see them exercising. Being towed by gliders. That sort of thing you know. And Caythorpe itself was, was full of paratroopers. They were all stationed there at Caythorpe. Which was Caythorpe Court. Which is now the, a farm institute.
DK: Was this the American paratroopers by any chance?
GP: No. We’re talking our own.
DK: British.
GP: Yeah. British paratroopers. There were American paratroopers stationed down at Fulbeck Low Fields. On the aerodrome there as well.
DK: Right.
GP: And I mean they did, in the early part when the Americans came they were allowed up in to the village.
DK: Right.
GP: But I’m afraid there was a bit of —
DK: Incidents.
GP: A bit of, you know, what’s-it going on. Fights broke out between the Americans and our paratroopers. And so they were banned from the village like, you know.
DK: Right. So this actual accident itself. Can you sort of describe what you, what you saw?
GP: Yeah. Well, we used to come down on our bikes from Caythorpe Heath to the village to catch a bus.
DK: Right.
GP: Either to Lincoln or Grantham.
DK: And this would have been 1945.
GP: 1945. February 1945. Yeah. And we came down. We used to park our bikes. The lady who had the village shop used to let us leave our bikes at the rear of the shop. And we’d just, where we was there waiting for the bus and saw this Lancaster bomber sort of high up in the sky. And then it started to dive. Which, I mean they often used to do that and then they would pull out and climb out, you see. But this one didn’t. And the engines were going full bore. And it kept coming in the dive and —
DK: So there was no flame or smoke.
GP: I couldn’t see any flame or smoke. And then it crashed into the rear of the old Caythorpe Railway Station.
DK: Did you see it actually, the crash itself or —
GP: Well, I should say where we were in the village, on the main street, would be a good quarter of a mile.
DK: Right.
GP: From there. Maybe a little bit more. And it, saw it hit the ground and there was a big explosion and by that the bus came around the corner. So, we got on the bus to go to Grantham and that was, that was my, you know bit of experience of the plane crash.
DK: You didn’t go back to see the wreck at all or anything.
GP: No. No. We, no we didn’t. We went on in to Grantham. And you couldn’t get anywhere near the place. Of course during the war you know what it was like.
DK: Yeah.
GP: It was sort of off the road anyway well so, and there was rumours going about that it was a black crew that was on board. But nobody, you know, nobody, you couldn’t get anywhere near the crash.
DK: So, since then, what, what have you found out about that? The crew and —
GP: Well, since, since then I told you I got this message from Australia telling —
DK: That was just in 2014.
GP: That’s right. Telling me that one of the relations of this lady that wrote the letter —
DK: So that’s her, her father’s older brother.
GP: That’s right.
DK: And its Rhod Pope.
GP: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Yeah. That he was on the plane and it was, that’s the —
DK: And all the crew were killed then.
GP: That’s right. That’s the first I knew it was an Australian crew.
DK: Right. So how, how did this lady contact you then? How did she know about your, you being an eye witness to it?
GP: Well, I tell you. The magazine. They was asking for people that —
DK: The local magazine was it?
GP: That’s right. Anybody knew. And I can’t believe really that they never had any more people than I. Mind you I suppose if no one was, if they were all in the house or nobody was in the position that we were in you might not notice. But nobody replied to them. And then, as I say they contacted me and we had this correspondence.
DK: And she hasn’t been over from Australia though? You haven’t actually met her.
GP: Yes. I have met her.
DK: Oh you have met her.
GP: And her husband. Yes.
DK: Oh right.
GP: Yeah. I met them. They, I thought they’d have a job to find me here so I arranged to meet them at Belton Garden Centre. So we went there and had a pot of tea and a piece of cake.
DK: So they’d come over from Australia.
GP: Yeah. That’s right. Last year.
DK: Yeah. And what was, and you took her to the crash site did you?
GP: No. No. No. No.
DK: Oh.
GP: No. She’d obviously been there and according to what she was saying they’d [pause] they’d got some, someone in the 70s, I didn’t know this, had done a bit of a research. An excavation there where it crashed.
DK: Oh right.
GP: And they’d, they’ve got some parts that are, I think in a bit of a museum at East Kirkby is it?
DK: Ok. Ok. East Kirkby. Yes.
GP: Yeah. She said they were going to be on display there. You know.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Nothing, you know, untoward.
DK: Yeah.
GP: But she —
DK: And did she visit East Kirkby do you know?
GP: Yeah. She’d visited East Kirkby, yes. And she knew about this. She’d been in touch with the people at Lincoln.
DK: Right.
GP: I think she’d been in touch I think with your people anyway.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
GP: And said there was going to be memorial put up at Lincoln. And possibly when it was opened I would get an invite. But I’ve not heard from them since. So —
DK: No.
GP: You know. I didn’t.
DK: I was going to ask about that. So you’ve got no idea if a memorial has gone up or anything like that.
GP: No. No. I don’t know.
DK: I might make some enquiries about that and see what —
GP: You know, I mean whether, whether she meant their, their, his name was going on, on the memorial that’s up there I don’t know.
DK: So this is just for the recording. It’s, it’s Lancaster PB 812.
GP: Yeah.
DK: And, but it doesn’t actually say here which squadron it was with. It was with 1 Group.
GP: No.
DK: There were no, no squadrons mentioned on here.
GP: No. But —
DK: Are you likely to be in touch with this lady again? Or —
GP: No. I’ve got, I’m waiting, well I’m waiting for her to contact me. I’ve got no means of contacting her you see over there.
DK: Because I might, I might find out. See if anything further happened at East Kirkby. Whether there was the idea of a memorial or anything.
GP: Yeah.
DK: I can, I can do that.
GP: I mean she did tell me that, when they came over that the relation that died in the plane —
DK: This’ll be the Rhod Pope.
GP: Rhod Pope. That’s right.
DK: Rhod Pope. Yeah.
GP: Was only on it because the, I don’t know whether he was the navigator. I can’t remember now. But the original one that should have been on the plane was, was sick.
DK: Right.
GP: So he filled his spot. He was only twenty one I think.
DK: And he was probably the navigator then.
GP: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: It’s got the names of the crew here actually. It’s —
GP: Yeah.
DK: Flying officer FJ something. Downing or something. RA Miller. R Pope. GM Dockery and AG Robinson.
GP: I mean, according to the coroner’s report I know it says something about something to do with the automatic pilot.
DK: Yeah.
GP: That might have caused the crash you see. And then it goes on to say someone else reported later on that they’d had the same problem.
DK: Yeah. It says, it says here, this is from Warrant officer, oh no sorry, Flying Officer Lucas. I think it was Lucas. “I was the usual captain and pilot of Lancaster PB 812. After operations on January the 2nd 1945 I complained that the automatic pilot fitted to this aircraft caused the aircraft to go into a sudden dive.”
GP: Yeah.
DK: “This was attended to and since then there has been no further signs of this trouble. I’ve completed four operations in this aircraft since that day and all the auxiliary equipment including nitrogen has proved entirely satisfactory.” So there was some problem at some point wasn’t there?
GP: Yeah.
DK: Apparently they, they were on a training flight but they were due to go on a bombing raid the next day.
GP: Yeah. Ok. I think we’ve probably got the, the story there.
DK: I’m sorry. You know. I can’t, like I told —
GP: That’s good. I’ll just —
[recording paused]
DK: But if we just go back to what you were saying there. It came down on the station. The Lancaster —
GP: Yeah.
DK: And it, it went into the goods yard.
GP: Yeah.
DK: Behind the station.
GP: On the end of the goods yard. Yeah.
DK: And as far as you were aware nobody was hurt.
GP: No.
DK: But there was a Wellington that —
GP: Yeah. But not at the same time.
DK: No. No.
GP: But I do recall that one. I mean that was one night so I didn’t witness that but I mean it did come down on the other side.
DK: And the wheel came off.
GP: That’s right. The wheel came off and went over the house and killed the cow that was in the crew yard.
DK: But you weren’t a witness to that one.
GP: No. No. No. No, I think it was the middle of the night. I think it was, I think that was coming back from a bombing raid. I’m not sure on that. But —
DK: Yeah.
GP: And I think that would have been, sort of in 1944.
DK: Right.
GP: You know.
DK: I mean there was obviously a lot of crashes and accidents in this area. So —
GP: Oh yes. I mean a lot of training planes from Cranwell.
DK: Yeah.
GP: You know. Used to come down. Nothing serious but they would, they’d crash land and they, most of, most of the big farms had what they called crash gates.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GP: So the services would get in pretty quick like, you know. But —
DK: So, what happened after the war then? Did you just go back to working on the, on the farms and —
GP: Yeah. Well, I’ve been about a bit. After the war I worked on the farm for a long, long time, till about the 1950s. And then I went into, I went and lived the other, I got married and lived the other side of Lincoln at Harby.
DK: Right.
GP: And on a, I worked on a nursery there growing flowers and bulbs. And then, then I came this way again into Grantham. Worked on the railway just before the steamers packed up. And then when the steamers packed up I joined the Fire Service.
DK: Oh right.
GP: Down here. Did twenty seven years in the fire service.
DK: Oh right. Yeah. Interesting.
GP: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Let’s stop there. That’s —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Plant
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APlantG160216
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:15:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
George Plant was a farm worker. He was waiting for a bus one day in February in 1945 when he witnessed Lancaster PB 812 crash behind Caythorpe Railway Station with the loss of all lives. Years later the relative of one of the casualties put an advertisement in the local magazine asking for any witnesses to the crash that had killed her uncle. George answered the advertisement and was able to meet this lady when she visited from Australia. The coroner’s report of the crash included the report by a former pilot of the aircraft that the auto pilot may have malfunctioned causing the aircraft to go into a steep dive.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945-01-10
460 Squadron
crash
Lancaster
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1081/11539/APragnellJ160526.2.mp3
b1d5d9b341a280f4d84f05cf037014fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pragnell, Jack
J Pragnell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Pragnell (b. 1921, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an observer with 51 and 102 Squadron. His twin brother was killed in action 16 December 1943 flying with 432 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pragnell, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So this is David Kavanagh on the 26th of May 2016.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Interviewing Jack Pragnell at his home. Ok. So if I just put that there. So if you just talk normally. If I keep looking over it like this I’m just checking that it’s still working.
JP: Yeah. Ok.
DK: So that’s out there. What, what I wanted to do was really just talk through your experiences before the war maybe.
JP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: What you were doing then. Why and how you joined the air force and what you did in the air force.
JP: Yeah.
DK: And then later on afterwards. So, to start with perhaps if you could just say what you were doing before the war.
JP: Well, before the war my twin brother and myself we were together all the time by the way. I’d got an identical twin.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JP: So we worked at, at Manfield Shoe Factory. In the office. Until, well we had, we were quite poor. We had to leave school at fourteen although we were at grammar school. We caught up on night school and everything so we did all that. And then come the sort of seventeen or so when I was a bit of fed up and wanting to move couldn’t do it because I was coming on to eighteen. And nobody had got a job there.
DK: No. No.
JP: And jobs were scarce for people. So we, we did a lot. Played a lot of sport. Enjoyed life thoroughly. We were both pretty good at sport and did very well at school and we were in the Boy’s Brigade and went to camp with them. And it was a lovely time. And then come the time when conscription was being, when none of us — all I knew of conscription was the First World War.
DK: Yeah.
JP: The filth and the degradation and the death in the, in the trenches. And we sort of wanted the glory boys you know. So we said, ‘Let’s go,’ and four of us got together one afternoon. Packed up our work and went off ostensibly to join the Fleet Air Arm because we liked the uniform.
DK: Right.
JP: When we got to the depot at Dover Hall it was the RAF recruiting place. The Fleet Air Arm was at the Naval place. In a different place. So anyway, we were talked into joining the air force. We had a few tests and we were accepted on the pilot navigator thing. Three of us. One was ill and went away. He came twelve months later and was a W/op AG but he was one out. So the three of us then waited as you did. Signed on. Waited. And we went to the place where they — Cardington.
DK: Cardington.
JP: To be signed up. Funny thing there. We go through. People didn’t know the difference. Absolutely identical. So he goes, my brother goes through and I was taken ill. So I was parked in to sick quarters for a week. When I came out he’d already gone through and been accepted on the pilot navigator thing. So I follow through and did the tests and one of the doctors said, ‘Well, we saw you last week.’ I said, ‘That was my brother.’ ‘Your brother?’ I said, ‘My twin brother.’ He said, ‘What did we do?’ ‘Oh you passed him.’ ‘Alright, you’re through.’ [laughs] So then we waited. This waiting time of several months, you know as everybody had to wait. And we were called up to Babington in London there to be — no. It was in the south. To be kitted and equipped. Near Bournemouth. Equipped and marched and inoculated and equipped and marched and inoculated. Incessantly. And then we went to Stratford on Avon at ITW. My brother and myself shared the Venus Adonis Room in the Shakespeare Hotel. Absolutely stripped clean. You know what I mean. I’ve been since and had a look. It’s a different kettle of fish. So then from there, after a few weeks of this, ‘You’re going.’ Didn’t know where. We were equipped with tropical equipment and, a kit bag full of that. And one night we were, well we were then taken to West Kirby near Manchester there. We were there for, I should think maybe a week or so and suddenly one night we were taken out at night and marched into the Glasgow station and climbed on a train outside the station and straightaway to a boat. The Moortown. The tramp steamer converted. And the filthiest, dirtiest old shabby ship you never saw in your life. It was an army boat and of course we were cadets there with a white flash in our hats oh and they took the mickey out of us left, right and centre. And we had the, under the bottom. Five weeks on that boat. Trudging. We didn’t know where we were going. We set out to the middle of the Atlantic we thought. Then suddenly we turned to port. Half of them sheared off. And with that I understand they finished up in America or Canada. We then went, they said, ‘Oh you’re going to Rhodesia.’ Well, we’d heard of Rhodesia but it was a long way away. Well, we went through. We couldn’t get off the boat. We had salt showers. It was purgatory. So, and the food wasn’t great you know, out of a big cauldron. But we got there. We finished up in, we went around the Cape. We thought where the hell are we going now? Sailed around. Finished up in Durban.
DK: Right.
JP: Lovely place Durban. It was lit. The sea was dark there. All the lights and what not. But there on the sea front was a dance hall and fairy lights. It was like heaven. And we were there a couple of weeks or so and the people were marvellous to us. They were queuing at the gates to take us out. And my brother and myself being identical twins we were snapped up, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And they took us all over the place. And we then got on the train. It took three days. One of these slow moving things with the old wagon at the back. We could get off and walk with it. Finished up in Bulawayo. It’s in Southern Rhodesia. Well after a few weeks there at the ITW again we were marched, we were inoculated. But we had a lovely time. People took us out. They queued at the gates to take people out. But then, being the two of us we got special treatment you know. So we had a lovely time. It was hard work. It was hard work but we still relaxed well and played well.
DK: So what sort of work were you doing in Bulawayo then?
JP: Well, that was a holding camp.
DK: Right.
JP: A sort of ITW.
DK: Right.
JP: It was, actually it was the old cattle market and we slept in the, where the cattle slept. With a blind down the front and —
DK: Yeah.
JP: Wooden sort of flooring. It was a bit primitive. And so were the quarters. But we loved it anyway.
DK: So the training you were doing there. Was that for, as a navigator or pilot?
JP: We were then on the pilots navigator.
DK: Pilot navigator.
JP: It was the top course. Yeah.
DK: Right.
JP: And we were doing navigation. We were doing star recognition. We were doing pilot recognition. We were doing aircraft. The whole gamut of night after night day after day.
DK: And did it include training as, flying?
JP: Oh that was all training. It was nothing but training with a bit of time off now and again. It was very hard graft. We loved it. We played a bit of football and a bit of, quite a bit of cricket in the spare time. Then we were picked out. ‘Right. You’re going off to pilot training.’ Went to Gwelo which was in the back woods of East London there. Of south, what’s the name? Southern Rhodesia. Well, I promptly had the bane of my life in the air force. Every so often I got tonsillitis. And it got every course I went on I had to have a few of days in dock with this tonsillitis. And I went in dock in the middle of the pilot training.
DK: Right.
JP: It was on Tiger Moths. I’d soloed but I was a bit ham-fisted. We’d only had a bike up until then. That hadn’t even got a three speed. So we trained and then they came along. The CFI came. I was behind because I’d had this week off and you could not get behind. It was push push push. This CFI, the Chief Flying Instructor came and he looked me up and down and said, ‘Well, come on.’ So I took him up. Landed him. Well, of course the tension of him being there and I was a very raw pilot. But he, he would have gone through the ceiling when we landed, you know. In a Tiger Moth on a grass field it was I thought. So I landed him. He looked me up. He said, ‘Well, what’s your navigation like?’ I said, ‘Well, quite good.’ He said, ‘I think you’ll make a better navigator than a pilot. You’ll be alright on these.’ The next step were Harvards of course. The killers.
DK: Yeah.
JP: He said, ‘You’ll kill yourself I think.’ And they were. A lot of people were. These decrepit Harvards. So, my brother got himself taken off and we were allowed to go together. We sat there and waited, oh two or three weeks until a course came and we were taken down, all the way down to East London. On the Cape.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And there we did the full observer course. Navigator, bomb aimer, air gunner. Again played a lot of sport. Again, taken around a bit. Again went out together. It was a lovely life because we did everything. See whereas if I had gone on my own I’d have had to look for a comrades.
DK: Yeah.
JP: I’d have had to look for a mate. There was two of us. We’d always got a mate.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And we were so much alike. We, well we were a part of each other. Absolutely. Dressed the same. Shared our money. Shared our clothes. Shared our uniforms. And got on ever so well together. Bane of the life of the instructors who didn’t know who they were talking to [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
JP: But anyway, we did well. We passed out from there. And then we had about three weeks at Cape Town waiting to come back. And then we came back alone. Not, we went out in convoy for the five weeks. Very slowly. Very tedious. The Prince of Wales and the other one going up and down. Of course they sailed on to the Far East and that was when they were sunk.
DK: Right.
JP: We were the last lot to see them when they went off.
DK: Yeah.
JP: But we came back alone on the Otranto. Which was a, was a merchantmen. In fact on the way back picked a boat load of survivors from [pause] from a boat from Argentina. Something Star. A meat boat.
DK: Right.
JP: And the women and children. We picked them up and brought them back. Then we got back here and due a bit of leave. And then posted to Yorkshire. To Driffield.
DK: Right.
JP: The main place there. And we were crewed up. Well. No. First of all we go on to a Conversion Unit.
DK: So which? Can you remember which Conversion Unit?
JP: In Lincolnshire somewhere.
DK: Right.
JP: It was Norfolk or Lincolnshire and I forget where it was.
DK: This would have been one —
JP: It’s a well-known one.
DK: Right. But this would have been one of the Heavy Conversion Units.
JP: Yeah. They were flying Harvards and the other things. The other four engine jobs. You know. The first ones.
DK: The Stirlings.
JP: The twin engine job. No. Not the — the two engine.
DK: The Anson.
JP: No. No. We’d done our training in Ansons.
DK: Yeah.
JP: No. Bigger ones.
DK: The Wellington.
JP: No. No. Different from them. Wimpy was there.
DK: Yeah.
JP: But the Wellingtons. They were ones that crashed a lot. They put four engines on them in the end and called them the Halifax.
DK: Right. The Manchester?
JP: Yeah. I think it was that.
DK: Manchester. Yeah.
JP: Yeah. So we as we got there we saw one plough in. Yeah. Now, the next morning they said, ‘Now look. We’re looking for bomb aimers. You’re a qualified bomb aimer and a qualified navigator. It’s equal pay. Equal terms.’ But you see then all the crews then were becoming not six crews but seven crews. And there was a great shortage of bomb aimers to add to the crews. So they asked for volunteers to go straight on ops, perhaps with the odd cross country, without doing a con-unit. So about ten of us stepped forward and within a couple of weeks we were crewed up at Driffield in a squadron. And a couple of cross country’s — ready for ops. Well then my pilot, we were the odd one in the crew then but we were in the crew. I was in the crew as a bomb aimer and in charge of the bombing and that. I didn’t have a bloody clue. So anyway the biggest bomb I’d dropped was the sort of five pounder in practice. Anyway, we soon caught up. They put us through the mill and so unfortunately they, the crew went on some operations. And the pilot went on his expertise, expert, expertise trip. You know, with a crew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JP: And they were missing. So the crew was broken up and I was floating around. I was lucky because looking for a bomb aimer was a crew where four of them were on their second tour. The pilot was a flight lieuy. The navigator was a flying officer. The gunner was warrant officer and a whats-its name. And they were looking for — and there was I, a youngster, shovelled into this lot.
DK: With an experienced crew.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JP: So I was lucky.
DK: Can, can I just check. Which squadron was this with then?
JP: 51 then.
DK: 51. Right.
JP: 51.
DK: Ok.
JP: And my brother, who was with me at the time.
DK: Yeah.
JP: On our, when we got there we had to, we knew we’d got to part. And we got a great pile of kit in the middle of the room and it was one for you, one for me. It broke my heart, you know. The first time we’d been parted or anything like. And we shared it. Now he got into a crew as well but it was a time when the Canadians were breaking away from 4 Group to form 8 Group.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And the rest of his crew were Canadian. Most of them. Four out the six. Or five out the six. And they opted to go Canadian. Well, he went with them. Now, strangely enough they were doing some operations. They were doing minelaying or what have you. And his pilot went on an expertise trip. Was missing. So, they again were crewed up. We stayed in the area and he got most of them together. They still stayed with the Canadian group but he got a bit behind then whereas I was straight on ops. I mean by January I’d done two or three ops to Lorient and places like that.
DK: So which type of aircraft were you on in 51 Squadron then?
JP: A Halifax.
DK: A Halifax. So —
JP: Halifax. It was all Halifax from then on.
DK: So all your operations were Halifax.
JP: And so was he. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JP: It was Yorkshire.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JP: They were all in Yorkshire. Around about. Well Pocklington actually. Snaith.
DK: Snaith.
JP: Was the one we were at for 51. So we did, I did, we did about half a tour with 51 and we were doing well. We were one of the crack crews and I became, although I say it myself, pretty good. I went to learn. And we did, the farce of, you know observation star sort of things. Astro. Well that was a farce. A complete and utter farce. You couldn’t do it. You know the old joke goes about they were lost and the navigator, the pilot said to the navigator, ‘Go and take an astro fix will you?’ He said. So the pilot comes back, ‘Take off your hats. You’re in St Paul’s Cathedral.’ And it was about like that. That’s the old story that got around, you know. Anyway, half way through the tour we were taken from, our pilot was promoted to squadron leader so we went to Pocklington where he took over a squadron as a squadron leader. And finished my tour there. And I had a very hot tour. We all did in there. I mean I had a very very warm tour in the end of ’42 and ’43. That was the heat of the losses.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And I was one of the lucky ones.
DK: Can you remember the name of your pilot at 51?
JP: Yeah. Squadron Leader Hay.
DK: So he went on to Pocklington then with 102.
JP: Oh yes. And took the crew with him.
DK: And you went with him.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And he then went as an instructor. I understand afterwards he had a bit of a crash and nearly wrote himself off. He was a bit wild. He was a typical, you might say a very early pilot. Mad as a bloody hatter but brilliant pilot. And the navigator then stayed but the chap doing the bomb aiming, no he was doing the navigation. That’s right. And I was then then the bomb aimer. He was a second tour man. He’d done his first flying on single engine stuff in India. He hadn’t got a clue. He had not got a clue. So we got lost on the way back from [unclear] We called Mayday and we were flagged up by searchlights flagging us up to get us home. So after that he was taken out of the crew. They got a pilot, they got an officer who was already a qualified, well-qualified navigator to take over the navigation and I then took over the bomb aiming.
DK: Right.
JP: So, from then on, apart from the fact we had a very very hard tour. And we had the toughest of the tough it was good plain sailing until they finished their, about four of them finished their second tour. I’d still got ten ops on my first tour. So their second tour was twenty, mine was thirty. So I was an odd Joe and I flew with seven different pilots. Sprog pilots, experienced pilots, wing commanders, squadron, to fill the gap. I was lucky. I mean pure luck that that I came through.
DK: So, how many operations did you do all together then?
JP: Well, counting two abortive when we had to go, they counted. And in fact we’d done a bit of operational out in South Africa. Out in South Africa, looking for Jap subs. I did a total of twenty seven full ops but the other two counted and the others patched together so really it counted for the thirty ops. I say it was twenty seven. But it was about, when you take the, what they counted. And I was ill. I’d suffered from the tonsillitis. I’d been in and out of dock. And just until my last op came. My last op was to Berlin. The one before it was Peenemunde. So you can tell it wasn’t easy. So I was taken, I was booked in to go when my tour finished. So I was now, they told me when it would finish and I was ready. Waiting for this last op to come. I was to go in to the hospital the following week to have my tonsils out. They were the bane of my life. So I got to bed. Tannoy. Would I report to sick bay. They’d made a mistake. The hospital was the next day. So I go in and of course I didn’t realise my body was upset. I mean you think the tension and that. You didn’t realise. They nearly killed me. They apologised afterwards. They should not have operated. It wouldn’t stop bleeding and they had to go deep. And afterwards, after a week I was like a wraith. Lost no end of weight and, and I came [laughs] when I went out the doctor said, well he said, would you, I’d been to Berlin the night before. When I got in there it was on the news about the Berlin raid. I said to the bloke, ‘Yeah, it was pretty rough.’ ‘Why?’ ‘Well, I was there.’ ‘He was there. He was there.’ All the nurses gathered around. I was the hero [laughs] So ,so anyway it, I came home on a bit of leave.
DK: So you, so you survived a trip to Berlin and then —
JP: Yeah.
DK: Were in hospital.
JP: The next day I was having my tonsils out.
DK: Oh dear.
JP: Now, my twin brother was on the way and they’d transferred from Halifaxes to Lancs.
DK: Right.
JP: And their first Lanc trip was a Berlin which was the Berlin following the one I went on. The last Berlin in ’43. And I was on the one before when we lost a lot of aircraft. But he was on that one. The first trip in a Lanc. They were shot down and killed over Leeuwarden in Holland.
DK: Oh dear.
JP: So that was it. It broke my heart that did. I didn’t know what to do with myself. And I was shovelled around then.
DK: Can you remember which squadron your brother was with?
JP: It was [pause] an American in the Canadian air force. I did, well names have got me.
DK: Yeah. Ok.
JP: I think it was 425. It was something like that. One of the Canadian squadrons in the north.
DK: Yeah.
JP: Yorkshire. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JP: We met from time to time. In fact the Canadian uniform was a bit better than ours and he came down one day with a pilot’s uniform on. I said, ‘What —?’ He said, ‘Well my pilot is staying with us but he’s a Yank so he’s transferred to the Yanks. Still as a pilot.’ Getting double pay sort of thing and more comfort, ‘And this is his uniform.’ So he swapped my old one for this and I had a new uniform.
DK: Oh well.
JP: Well, I said at the last thing when we were in East London we were qualified and we got pinned things on. Our things for South African officers to come around, a general or something, and pin them on and a band played. That sort of thing. So the last, we had a course dinner, the menu’s in there. And this flight lieutenant gets up and, words of wisdom, he said, ‘Now, there’s one thing I’d like to say.’ I’ll never forget this. ‘Before we go out tomorrow on parade you’ve got to look your best,’ and he said, ‘And Pragnells get your bloody hair cut.’ [laughs] See we’d both got double crowns. When you cut that short it stands up like a hedgehog [laughs]. And they didn’t know the difference anyway. We got away with blue murder.
DK: So, what, what was your feelings about flying in the Halifax then? Was it a [unclear]
JP: Well, we worshipped the Halifax. Yeah. See, it’s a lost machine now but it did more. It towed gliders, it did Met, it did bombing, it did transport. It did everything, the Halifax. Whereas the Lanc
DK: Yeah.
JP: Faster, higher, newer, only did bombing. And of course we hadn’t got all the equipment. We had to manage with the old Mark 9 bombsight where we set our own. And it was impossible to take an astrofix because you couldn’t get it steady enough. We set the bombsight ourselves. Well inaccurate because you can’t get the exact speed. Now the Mark 10, the last few I got, the speed, the speed and that was fed in, and the height, was fed in electronically. But we had the, the what’s the name box for a few but they had all the latest equipment. We just had DR and that was it.
DK: Yeah.
JP: So, we, I mean we worshipped the Halifax. It took us there. Got us back. And now mention the Halifax you’re treated with scorn, ‘that bloody thing.’ Yet it did all. It was like the Hurricane and Spitfire. Hurricane did the work. The Spitfire got the credit because of the name.
DK: Yeah.
JP: Hurricane. Lanc got the credit because new aircraft flying higher, faster than anything and got all the credit. But we did a hell of a lot of work. In fact we got to, say about twenty thousand feet. They were above us but below us were the Stirlings and the Wimpies and the Wellingtons. We did our bombing runs on them and they did their bombing runs on us [laughs] yeah.
DK: Could you, could you actually see much at night then? Could you see?
JP: Well, it depended on the cloud.
DK: Yeah.
JP: I mean the Peenemunde raid was a one off. It was absolutely clear moonlight. It was like daylight and we went in at fifteen thousand lower. And it was a must. It frightened the life out of us. They briefed us. They said, they locked the doors and you mustn’t breathe a word. If a word gets out we’re finished. It’s got to be deadly secret to get this place where they’re making the V-2s or V-1s. And so all this. It’s dangerous. And you’re going out at a lower level. And you’ve got to go whatever the weather. If you don’t go tonight you’ve got to go to it and then it will be twice as bad because by then the Germans probably would have known.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And they did a fake run to Berlin. So we got over Denmark and we got to Flensburg and we were coned. Now to get coned was suicide. When you’ve got a bomb load and once they got you in the cone of light you couldn’t see and the only way out was to get down below the angle. So you came down with a loaded bomber and you had a job to pull out. It was almost suicide to get caught. And they either fired up the flak or get the night fighters on you. But of course we were lucky. The night fighters had all gone —
DK: Yeah.
JP: To stop this, what was going to be a trip to Berlin. And they weren’t there. So that was just an incident where I had the luck, you know.
DK: At the briefing for Peenemunde —
JP: Yeah.
DK: Did they tell you what was being made in the factories?
JP: Yes.
DK: They did.
JP: Yes. We knew about this WAAF. WAAF had seen the photograph. And the, and the Poles had already, give them credit, the Poles were the bravest of the brave. They pinched a chunk of wood and they’d got it over through Sweden. So we’d got more idea and also don’t forget our Buckinghamshire team was taking the secret doc, the secret meetings of the Germans.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JP: They could learn. So we knew more than they thought we knew. They told us all about it and said what it was and said we’d got to wipe it out because it was the V-1 then and that was creating havoc. It was frightening. You know, putt putt putt and down it came. And it was creating a bit of panic. And when the V-2 came it didn’t even make that sound. Explode half a town you know. So, they told us we’d got to go and we’d got to get it. Now, the Yanks followed a day or two later. But the Yanks got all the credit. They weren’t even there. On that Peenemunde raid where we dropped people in to sort of stifle it and that, the RAF did it. Yeah. When we got there not a sound. It was way way way into Denmark. Past the Kattegat up in the Baltic and we went on in straight line as if we go up to Sweden or turn starboard to Germany. To Berlin. That was up there. And suddenly we were, we knew we’d got to find this place. They stuck out in the water. This sort of bulbous sort of bit of land. No searchlights. No flak. And as we turned to go in, oh then all hell was let loose. We were on the first wave. So we were through and out. Out the other side before too much trouble. But those that followed got hammered.
DK: Yeah. Could you see much of the target as you dropped your bombs at Peenemunde?
JP: No. You could see the, that raid yeah you could see the huts and the buildings.
DK: Yeah.
JP: But normally when you were at twenty five thousand and don’t forget you’re not going to a flat surface. You’re going to a sea of fire. Flames. Kites going down. Green and red, what’s the name of it on the ground and the searchlights and night fighters. So you, you didn’t see much. And it got all smoky if not cloudy. So, on a good night going in you could pick out the rivers and the main road. The [unclear] were light. They were like big white sort of lights. And the, and the woods. Well later on of course when I then went on to glider, glider towing, paratroop dropping at low level a different kettle of fish. We map read everywhere then on the shape of the woods and the rivers. But you only saw the minor ones up there. You could see enough. Well you could say look there’s a load of flak ahead. That’s probably, you look at your map, that’s probably the town of so and so. Go to starboard to avoid it. And then the pilot would say, ‘How far do you think we are Frank from — ’ and I’d sort of, ‘Ten miles.’ Alright. It was a good crew and they relied on everybody.
DK: Can you, can you still name your crew then?
JP: I can. Yeah. Well. Ron Hay was the pilot. Dougie Henderson was the rear gunner. John Garland was the w/op AG. The rear, the mid-upper gunner was a young lad who lost his life in a car, in a coach accident when we’d only had him a week or two. And then an Aussie joined us, Arthur Evans. And we were friends. And the navigator. I hardly spoke to him because he was in his little enclave and he was an officer. We were all NCOs except Doug. Well, when they finished the tour the pilot he had us in. He said, ‘Well, what can I do? Would you like me to recommend you for a commission?’ The rear gunner said yes. I said, he asked me, I said no because I was not going to get beyond my brother. Imagine. Identical twins. One walking down the street with a commission and one not. I couldn’t do it.
DK: No.
JP: So I said no. I was offered it. Only if I’d taken the chance I’d have done probably a lot better but I wouldn’t take it.
DK: Did you find that a bit difficult that your crew, some of the crew were officers?
JP: Yeah.
DK: And yourself NCO. So you wouldn’t mix socially or —
JP: Yeah. You wouldn’t mix socially unless they would. But they weren’t really allowed to. They did up to a point. We’d go out for a drink now and again but then we’d go our own way.
DK: But you didn’t see that as a problem in the crew itself.
JP: No. No. No. We were all mad and all equally sort of wanted to go. And I never saw, I did with a couple of crews I flew with, saw much panic. You see the bravery was not going on ops where you were shot down. Because you didn’t expect to be. You hoped not to be. The bravery was going the next day and the next day. I mean in successive. In there you’ll see I did four ops in five days. Absolutely tired out. It wasn’t just the op. The next day you had to go to get your aircraft ready. If there was not a malfunction you had to go and do a little flight test. Had to get all the equipment ready and be briefed all day. So you never got any sleep.
DK: No.
JP: And of course when you got to bed you were too tired to sleep and too exhilarated. There was a certain exhilaration when you got back.
DK: I was going to say how did you feel as you got out of the aircraft after, after the mission? After the operation.
JP: Happy. You know. Very contented. Very very pleased with life. And we used to, we didn’t feel boastful or anything like that. We’d got to go to be debriefed of course with the old padre there. And he used to hand out the fags and I didn’t smoke so I used to give mine away. And then we had, always looked forward to egg and chips. Egg and chips. And if any crews were missing we ate their eggs. But you wouldn’t know. See, you only knew your own crew basically. You knew the others in passing but everything was, everything was together. You trained together, you flew together and you went out together. Had a drink together. You see you were right out in the country. Not much you could do. So you got the old bike and went to the nearest pub. And if they hadn’t got any beer we’d go to the next one. And then we’d find a little social dance. That sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
JP: You couldn’t do anything. Occasionally we got in to York. I went to Leeds a couple of times. And I believe, and I can’t remember how but I went to Sheffield once. Didn’t get on there because we hadn’t got time. We’d just go for the evening and wander around and have a drink and —
DK: And then.
JP: That was it.
DK: As you were then told the next day another operation how did you feel then as you were getting in the aircraft?
JP: Well, quite, quite glad really. You were getting through them. I remember I sort of started putting a number by my ops. And, and so they said, ‘We don’t count. We don’t count the ops. We just do them.’ But you did. In your mind. You knocked another one off. And it got more sort of you know the early, oh yeah but when you got in your twenties and people all around you were missing. You didn’t know whether they’d been shot down, whether they’d finish their tour, whether they’d left. And all this. It was come and go all the time. You couldn’t settle anywhere. Only with your own crew.
DK: Yeah.
JP: Because if you made friends because they were missing the next night. That wasn’t to say they were missing. They were posted away to somewhere else. It was a come and go. So there was that community of crew. They were more or less everything. And you got on well with them. Well most of them. Some, some you didn’t. But you were so closely knit together and there was a camaraderie about it. And I met two crews that panicked a bit. One of them supposed to be one of the, actually I flew with them a couple of times. And they’d done well on the thousand bomber raid and the pilot had got his, had got a gong out of it. So they were supposed to be a good crew. But they got behind somehow and the bomb aimer had gone, I reckon he’d gone to LMF. Lack of moral fibre. They used to take them out and strip them, you know. Lack of moral fibre they call it. Nerves didn’t count. None of this psychology or that sort of thing. You were whipped away. If you were an officer, reduced to, well kept your commission but reduced in rank to the menial jobs. If you were an NCO you lost your rank and everything else.
DK: And this crew. Did you think the bomb aimer then was, had had some problems?
JP: The bomb aimer had a lot. You see, I was the one who, well out of them I’d done a bit of flying on the Tiger and the Anson and whatnot. More than they had, some of them. And I was the one who used to help the pilot at his take off because you needed two. One to help push it up.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And I was the one that helped him on landing. And, and I was the one he referred to. Now, you see if you go to Berlin you’ve got over an eight hour trip. Well the pilot can’t get and have a quick wee. There’s nobody there. Now on one occasion he put it into George which was the automatic pilot, ‘Here you are Prag. Have a go at this.’ And I held this, frightened to death while he went and had a quick wee. But they relied on you so much.
DK: So your job also included flying the aircraft then when he needed a break.
JP: Well, it didn’t really but it depended on the pilot. He used to let me have a go now and again but when he was a, I didn’t, I wasn’t good enough to sort of take it on and like it.
DK: So, on, on a typical operation then as, as you as the bomb aimer.
JP: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: What was your role when you got on the aircraft and you took off? Are you helping the navigator?
JP: Well, the navigator. He was in his little sort of hut thing and I, I didn’t want to be a navigator because you couldn’t see what was going on. You could only hear. Whereas a bomb aimer you had the freedom of the aircraft.
DK: Right.
JP: And you were more or less in charge of that part of the aircraft in many ways.
DK: Did, did your job involve anything to do with the bombs before they went on the aircraft? Would you check them?
JP: No. The armourers did that.
DK: Right.
JP: You saw them and watched them winch them on but it was the armourers that did it. You knew how to, if it didn’t go off they’d was a little pannier thing you could undo and pull a toggle and get it, release it.
DK: Yeah.
JP: You’re not supposed to, you couldn’t bring them back because you couldn’t land with them or they’d have gone up and blown you up. And if you’d still got them when you got back you had to drop them in a dropping zone. Ours was in, in the North Sea. And —
DK: Did you have any that didn’t drop? That you, you had to —
JP: I believe, I didn’t know but the flight engineer, he was often, he was a Scotsman and he was often half drunk. He said there’s a couple of, a couple of bombs there. So I went down to look. I pulled the toggle but whether it released the bomb or not I don’t know. But I think once, yes in the North Sea there. See, you got, what’s-it Glenn Miller lost on a place like that when they came back and dropped their bombs. They reckon that’s where, how he lost his life.
DK: Yeah. As you, as you’re approaching the target then.
JP: Yeah.
DK: You’re in the front. You’re looking down.
JP: Yeah.
DK: And then what’s your role there? Do you arm the bombs and then drop them?
JP: Well, you do the map reading in. The pilot, the navigator’s supposed to get you within range and then it was yours and you do the, you see the target where the green and red flares were. And the Pathfinders above were saying bomb on the green flares because there had been an accident and the red had drifted away. Or bomb on the red. Or right between the two. So you directed it in between all the flak and the flame to where you think the target was. And you go on, you know, ‘Left. Left.’ You said, ‘Left. Left.’ And ‘Right,’ So if you said the same so you didn’t get the same tone.
DK: Right.
JP: ‘Left. Left. Steady. Steady.’ And when you were approaching you had the bomb doors open. You had to open them ready and you kept them open ‘til after you’d dropped your bomb for the photograph. As you closed the doors so the photograph was cut off. So you had to, as long as you, the time was how long your bombs would take to drop and each bomb had a different timing because they were different. Smooth or whatever. And they were different weights. So they had the speed they entered so all that had to be entered on your bombsight. So it was done automatically later but we had to enter it on a height bar and, and another knob here, another knob there. And then we got the information as we flew. And then you’d drop it as you said, ‘Bombs gone,’ And then you get the panic. ‘Get rid of them. Go.’ And you’d got you had to be cool, calm and collected until that photograph went off. The flash went off. Because that was taking, you see the bombs didn’t go down like that. They go on an arc with the speed and they were there. They’d say, oh bomb here. They’d land over by you, you see. So we had to wait that time. It seemed like an age. And you couldn’t turn around and come back because you were going in to your own people. You had to fly on over Germany and then so many miles they’d either turn. You didn’t know whether you were going to turn port or starboard to find the way out.
DK: As, as the bombs left the aircraft could you feel the aeroplane.
JP: Yeah. You felt it go. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And what, what was the crews reaction as they’re waiting for you to drop the bombs?
JP: [laughs] Going mad. ‘Close the f’ing doors,’ [laughs] And I used to, I was the youngster you know. They were all older than I was. I was supposed to be cool, calm and collected. The pilot was good. The pilot would do everything you told him to do and yet he was probably the most experienced pilot in the Group. So we got all the big jobs. The Berlins and the Peenemunde and we got the Hamburg raid when we wiped it out with Window. It’s all in there in that book of mine. Yeah.
DK: Can I have a look at the logbook?
JP: Yeah.
[pause]
JP: Now, that’s precious. If you look in the back there’s all the stations, all stations of it and there’s a picture of myself and my brother there in that envelope.
DK: Can I?
JP: Have a look at that. Yeah.
DK: I’ll be very careful with it.
JP: That’s alright.
DK: You were alike [laughs]
JP: We were nineteen there. That was taken just after we got home from South Africa
DK: I don’t know how people told you —
JP: They didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JP: They didn’t. You can see. You can see why we were known as, we were known as Prag by the crew.
DK: So are you on the left or the right?
JP: I think on the left.
DK: You think [laughs]
JP: From me it would be the left.
DK: Left. Right.
JP: Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Lovely.
JP: Broke my heart when he was killed. Part of me went. And I had a hell of a time after that. I wasn’t happy.
DK: No. I can understand.
JP: It’s got all my qualifications in there of course.
DK: So I’ll read this out for the recording. So you were on Ansons here. This was in Rhodesia.
JP: Yeah. That was —
DK: East London.
JP: The Navigation.
DK: Yeah. East London.
JP: Yeah. That was South Africa.
DK: South Africa. Yeah. Yeah.
JP: And the Oxfords were bombing.
DK: So you were on Fairey Battles as well.
JP: Pardon?
DK: Battles. Fairey Battles.
JP: Yeah. That was the gunnery.
DK: Yeah.
JP: We used to fire at a drogue being towed by, what have we got here?
DK: And Oxfords.
JP: Oxfords. That was the gunnery.
DK: Yeah.
JP: That was the, you know, the bombing.
DK: That’s South Africa. So it’s 102 Squadron. And then it says 1652 Conversion Unit.
JP: Yeah. That, well we went there for a couple of weeks. That’s all. You see I didn’t get, I didn’t start until late in 1942. Yet I was doing my ops in ’42 and ’43. Yeah.
DK: And then on to 51 Squadron at Snaith.
JP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So that’s Halifaxes.
JP: Yeah. See Pocklington was the holding unit then.
DK: Right.
JP: The head of the Group.
DK: So Lorient, so Cologne.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Wilhelmshaven.
JP: Yeah. Wilhelmshaven. Yeah.
DK: It says here Nuremberg. Engine. Engine u/s. Bombs jettisoned.
JP: Yeah. We had to come back. Yeah. We got there and more or less had to drop the bombs and had to come out. That counted as an op because we’d got more than half way I believe.
DK: So this is February 1943. And then there’s Cologne. And then St Nazaire in France.
JP: Yeah.
DK: So Berlin on the 1st of March.
JP: Yeah. I did three Berlins. And you’ll find there were ten Essens as well.
DK: Right.
JP: Three Essens in there.
DK: So the 1st of March was Berlin.
JP: Yeah.
DK: The 5th of March, Essen.
JP: Yeah.
DK: The 9th of March, Munich.
JP: Yeah.
DK: The 12th of March, Essen.
JP: Well, would you get a harder tour than that anywhere? Suicide.
DK: Well, you had a bit of a break here. It’s the 26th was Duisburg. And then 27th of March, Berlin again.
JP: Yeah.
DK: So then April. 3rd of April, Essen.
JP: Yeah.
DK: April the 4th Kiel. The 8th of April, Duisburg. The 14th of April, Stuttgart. And then they’ve given you another rest here [laughs] May 13th Bochum.
JP: Bochum.
DK: And then?
JP: Dortmund. Bochum.
DK: Yeah.
JP: Dortmund. Dusseldorf.
DK: And then 23rd of May, Dortmund.
JP: Yeah. They were all the Ruhr Valley.
DK: 25th of May, Dusseldorf. Sorry. So July the 24th was Hamburg.
JP: Yeah.
DK: So that would have been the big raid on Hamburg.
JP: That would have been the [pause] when we wiped it out with the firestorm yeah.
DK: And then 25th of July, Essen. August the 2nd , Hamburg. August the 8th Nuremberg. Milan.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Milan, Italy.
JP: We didn’t get there. We got, we couldn’t get over the, had engine trouble so we got as far as the Alps. Had to turn around and come back.
DK: So that, it actually says engine u/s. Bombs jettisoned.
JP: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then August the 17th Peenemunde.
JP: Yeah.
DK: And it says you landed back at Middleton St George.
JP: Yeah. Yeah. We couldn’t get in. We were fog bound. Our place.
DK: Right. And then August 22nd Leverkusen. 23rd of August, Berlin again. So that, that presumably would have been, oh it says you were then screened from operations.
JP: Yeah.
DK: September 1943.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Wow.
JP: In the further ops you will see, if you turn over, on the, when I re-mustered. I couldn’t stand Training Command after my brother was missing. And I had a row with the wing commander. So I volunteered for another thing and found out it was glider towing.
DK: That was with 298 Squadron.
JP: Yeah.
DK: Tarrant Rushton. So, you were, you were towing the gliders then.
JP: Yeah. Yeah. We took a Hamilcar in the big bugger.
DK: Hamilcars. Yeah.
[pause]
JP: Then I did an instructors course at Number 1 Air Armament School, Manby. Which was, by then, by that time the war was, we weren’t needed after that. They didn’t know what to do with us.
DK: Yeah. So, so, that’s May 1945. You’re on Wellingtons then.
JP: Yeah.
DK: What was that like? Flying Wellingtons after the Halifax.
JP: Wellington was probably the best aircraft of the war. It did everything.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And it was still going strong at the end of the war.
DK: And that was —
JP: Very strong. You know the geodetic construction.
DK: Yeah.
JP: And it stood up to any. It burned because it was fabric. You could reckon if a Wellington crashed it was going to burn. We did crash in it. Is it there we crashed? A ten minute trip.
DK: Was that at Manby?
JP: No. That was later on. During that time. So, when I was in Training Command. On one of the odd trips.
DK: Yeah. So [pause] so when, when did you leave the air force then?
JP: When? It’s in my book. My service book there.
DK: So would it have been about that time?
JP: No. It was —
Other: ’46 I think.
DK: ’46. Ok.
JP: It was a bit later. 1946 I think. Yeah.
Other: Yeah. May. May ’46.
JP: Yeah. I did just over five years.
DK: Yeah. And what did you do after that? When you —
JP: Well, I didn’t know what. I wasn’t going back to my job. I couldn’t stand the thought of a tin pot office job. And I had straight, I had a couple of months leave and about two hundred quid to spend. You know, as the generous air force. And I was walking home one day having told Manfields. They offered me a job. Offered me a good job. I couldn’t go back. Couldn’t go back indoors. So, I was walking home along St George’s Avenue which was by the technical college and out shot one of the teachers who was my old teacher when I was at school. And he’d been an officer in the cadets. So I used to meet him at the odd dance at the Salon and whatnot. And he used to speak. So he said, ‘Hello,’ he said. Well I was demobbed. He said, ‘What are you going to do?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. I’ve got a couple of hundred quid in the bank. I’ve got a couple of months leave and I don’t know what I’m going to do.’ I said, ‘I’m not going back to my old job although they said I could. It’s a waste of time. I’m not going back there.’ He said, ‘Well, why don’t you take up teaching?’ I said, ‘Well can I?’ He said, ‘Well, you’re a qualified instructor to start with.’ Which was better than a teaching diploma. He said, ‘And furthermore you were one of my bright lads,’ he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said. I said, ‘What do you do?’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll get the papers and I’ll sign. I’ll recommend you. You’ll have to get another recommendation and get the papers filled in and then wait.’ Well, I did this. Within about a fortnight I was accepted. And they sat down, ‘You don’t need to be qualified. You can start straight away.’ I was teaching within a month. A class of my own in a school. Well, I had that for about eighteen months. Then I went to college then and then after a few years I got a headship. Then a bigger headship. And that was it. Twenty odd years ahead. I was a magistrate for twenty seven years in addition.
DK: Oh right.
JP: And all sorts of other things.
DK: So how, how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command now? How do you feel about it after seventy odd years?
JP: A bit of a joke. And, you know, the bombastic sort of people there. Well one wing commander. I was introduced. When we went back for my second tour they were crewing up from all over. And I was the one who had done most. I’d done a tour of ops. None of the others had. So, we went through, ‘Now, what have you done?’ I said, ‘Well, you can ask the others. Well, I’ve done a tour of ops.’ ‘You did what?’ I said, ‘A tour of ops.’ ‘On what aircraft?’ ‘Halifaxes.’ I learned afterwards he’d flown Halifaxes. And he tapped his chest, the bombastic bugger and said, ‘And didn’t you get one of these?’ I said, ‘No. My name didn’t come with a NAAFI ration.’ He went mad. ‘These have to be earned,’ he said [laughs] He didn’t like that and I didn’t like him. I had a big row with him later though. You see I missed out through being ill. Immediately afterwards for two to three weeks I wasn’t there and that was when things were being disposed of. I was told I was getting a gong. I didn’t get it.
DK: Oh really.
JP: I was also told, I went up for commission but didn’t get it. I think it had gone before that I’d had a row. When my brother was finally reported killed my mother was suicidal. And we were on then glider towing. Now, that half of England nothing was allowed out. No phone call. No letters. No anything. You were not allowed out if you were in that, in the forces because of the secrecy of it for D-Day. This went on for several weeks. Well, my father sent a pre-paid telegram. And mum, they knew I was back on ops because his friend in the Bournemouth had told him. He’d got a friend there. But didn’t know what ops. And of course she got the wind up. Thought it was like my brother. And then she was suicidal. And I didn’t know what to do. So he wrote and said, ‘Look, you must come home.’ So, I went to the wing commander. This bombastic devil. He didn’t think much of me and I didn’t think much of him anyway. I let it be known. So I sat I’m on my own [laughs] frequently. So anyway, he, he was there in the crew room surrounded by people. I said, ‘Look, it’s important. Could I have a forty eight hour pass?’ ‘Forty eight hour pass. Why?’ I said, ‘Well, my twin brother has finally been reported killed and my mother’s suicidal.’ ‘Well, what good can you do?’ I looked him up and down. I said, ‘I’ll bloody soon show you what good I can do,’ I said, ‘For one thing my MP will know. Another thing the Daily Mirror, which was the forces favourite, that will know. And another thing you will be on the bloody grass.’ He looked at me and I turned around and walked away. I took the forty eight hour pass. And when I was home my mother made me promise not to fly again. I was heartbroken. I didn’t know what to do. I mean I was on my own. I was no longer had to, got a mate. I’d been a loner. When he was missing I became a loner because I couldn’t, couldn’t gel.
DK: No.
JP: So I went back and I said, ‘Look. I’m not flying anymore.’ Well, the crew couldn’t understand it. They could understand but they knew why. The CO, well the CO was the one I’d had the row with. But the one below him, the squadron leader, he was a lovely bloke. He was a bit older and a bit more understanding. And he had a bit more authority really. He was long established. And so I used to have to report to him every day. He said, ‘Will you fly?’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘Now look,’ he said, ‘Normally if they can’t fly they are stripped of their rank and that,’ he said, ‘Because you’ve done a tour of ops we feel we can’t do that to you but,’ he said, ‘Your crew is standing by.’ And D-Day was, turned out to be about a fortnight later. ‘Is waiting. And you’re one of the leading crews. But the crew can’t fly without you. So, at the moment the wing commander realises that he should not have said what he said. He hasn’t reported it. But Group want to know and they’ll have to.’ So anyway I was standing on my own in the navigator’s room just looking around. And nobody wanted to know me. I was a bloody pariah you know. And in comes this wing commander. And he looks me up and down. ‘Pragnell.’ ‘Yeah.’ No sir. I never called him sir again in my life. He said, ‘Well, I want to fly up to Wing.’ We thought he had a lady friend at Wing. Near Leighton Buzzard there. He used to go frequently. Perhaps it was a Group meeting. I don’t know. He says, ‘I want a crew.’ He said, ‘Will you fly?’ I looked him up and down. I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Right,’ he said , ‘We’ll get a crew together,’ and so and so. So, I had to go round and get a gunner and a what’s the name and we flew him up there. I flew him up there. Got him there. I didn’t bother to navigate. I map read him up because I was good at that by then. I’d map read over France and very good at it. So anyway I got off for the sake of the other lad I got a proper course. Flew him back. We got back to Brize Norton. That was our headquarters. And he said, ‘I know where I am.’ So, ‘Right.’ So he flew back and dropped us off and I then went back in to my crew. And then came D-Day of course. So then very shortly after D-Day, now whether it was because I was more experienced as I was or whether he didn’t like me as I think it was I was taken out of my crew within, with several others. But whole crews. To form a new Conversion Unit up near Nottingham somewhere. To train for the Far East.
DK: Right.
JP: And we, well as soon as we got there the war virtually finished so we weren’t, we were posted all over the place then. So I was taken out. Not, with this other crew and flown up to this place to help form this unit. Well, we got together, did a bit of instructing but then the runways apparently wouldn’t take the weight of the bigger aircraft. So we moved to Saltby, which you probably know. Lincolnshire way.
DK: Yeah.
JP: We went there in convoy and I was given charge of a couple of lorries. A handful of erks and a lorry load of stuff to go down and went through Burton on Trent and through there. And I got relatives in Burton on Trent so, ‘We’ll have an hour here lads.’ So we stayed there and I went and saw my relatives and had a cup of tea with them and we went back in to Saltby. And I got the best billet. Well, that didn’t last long. We moved on again. We went to Marston Moor. We went somewhere else. That’s all in there where we went to. And we weren’t wanted. Because they’d got so many like us that had finished their ops they didn’t know what to do with them.
DK: No.
JP: They made lorry drivers and engine drivers out off of lots of them. And I got a lovely little number myself. I I got in to a department. Only a flight lieutenant and he was in charge of the bombing equipment and the distribution of it. And the bomb dump was absolutely full. Old wings, parts of engines, mechanical stuff. And it was brimming over. And he gave me the job with a lorry and a couple of erks who knew what they were doing, and a driver to go out each day. And they sorted out the pick of the stuff. Expensive metals. And we’d go to York every day. We’d drop this off. And go back there the next day. Marvellous time I had. And I, and there’s all sorts of things going. You know you couldn’t get coat hangers for love or money. Now, there was, hanging all around this room where the gas capes had been there were three coat hangers on each peg. Little did the flight lieutenant know. A bit later there were only two of these coat hangers on each peg. When he came to me one day, he said, ‘Oh, you can have a coat hanger.’ ‘Oh, thank you very much.’ All my mates had got coat hangers. Another time he came and said, ‘Well we’ve got so much stuff.’ They’d got farming equipment, barbed wire, these stakes that went in and the farmers were crying out for stuff. He said, ‘We’ve invited some of the local farmers to come and have some. So,’ he said, ‘Go and see to it.’ So I went up there and there were these farmers with their tractors. ‘Well, what can I have?’ ‘I don’t know. Have what you like.’ They were loading on the barbed wire and I came in for a lot of eggs that day. It was a lovely time. I was completely in charge of myself and nobody bothered me.
DK: But the stuff was being used. It was being used usefully on the farms though wasn’t it?
JP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JP: Yeah. They were very friendly actually. The farmers. It was back up in Yorkshire of course see. Where I knew. All my flying. That was Linton on Ouse this was.
DK: Right.
JP: Yeah. Yeah. At the big one up there. But the rest of it was Pocklington and Elvington and Snaith. And my twin brother was Holme on Spalding Moor and Northallerton and around there. Yeah. It was in Northallerton that one of them took my tonsils out. That was a joke. He said, ‘Well, come on. You’ve got to go.’ So I had to get up and get dressed and I got an ambulance to take me. And it was the old ambulances. No sirens. It was ring bells. And everywhere we went for a bit of fun he rang the bell. And the people were lining the street. And when we got there he rang the bell. Pulled up. People were watching. And I climbed out [laughs] I saw life.
DK: Oh dear. Ok. Well that, that —
JP: Sorry to bore you but —
DK: No. That’s, that’s great. I’ll stop it there.
JP: Yeah.
DK: That’s been marvellous. Thanks, thanks very much for your time.
Other: When you’ve stopped it —
DK: Still going.
JP: Well, if you want to —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Pragnell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APragnellJ160526
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:02:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Training Command
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Pragnell and his twin brother Thomas volunteered together for the RAF and trained together. Jack flew operations as a bomb aimer with 51 Squadron. His brother joined a Canadian crew. Jack was plagued with health problems and was suddenly told his operation to have his tonsils removed would be taking place the next day. It was only during his convalescence that he realised just how the stress of operations had already affected him. His brother and his crew were shot down and killed which devastated Jack. After his tour he joined Training Command before joining 298 Squadron towing gliders.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
South Africa
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Dorset
England--Yorkshire
France--Lorient
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Italy--Milan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
102 Squadron
298 Squadron
51 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
Halifax
Hamilcar
lack of moral fibre
RAF Pocklington
RAF Snaith
RAF Tarrant Rushton
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1084/11542/APriestR160720.2.mp3
028c0b3fc5531bd6f4b2df0d75d32ef0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Priest, Ron
R Priest
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ron Priest (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 149 and 635 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Priest, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Ron Priest at his home on the 20th of July 2016. If I just put that down there, it will pick us up. Yes, ok, so just going back, if I could start off then by start, just ask what were you doing before the war?
RP: Yes, well, when I left school, I went in, sixteen I suppose, I went into a local solicitor’s office as a shorthand typist [laughs]
DK: Really?
RP: I wasn’t very good at it but I think the principal wanted somebody there, just him and me, when he went out visiting clients and whatever, so I stayed there some many months, it was only a bus ride away from home so it was rather nice and I could get home for lunch.
DK: So where was home at the time then?
RP: Lewisham, Hither Green.
DK: Oh, I know.
RP: Whether you know that way or and then I, some of my mates were working in London getting what seemed to be enormous money but because I couldn’t get [unclear] so I said to the principal that I thought I’d like to leave if you know, [unclear], he said, well, what have you got in mind? I said, I’d think I’d like to work in London. He said, well, I know a friend of mine is a chartered accountant and I could speak to him about you if you thought so thank you very much, there was no animosity in my leave, [unclear], so in short I got the job, but it was a big firm for accountance, about five principles and I was the office boy answering the telephone and getting the cakes for tea for the ladies [laughs]. Well, I did that for some months and then I got on the audit staff, which pleased me, so it was a team of us that used to go round to various places and do their books you see, one of them was Bromley, Bromley borough council south east, and I went there with an audit staff, that was rather nice cause again it was a bus [unclear] away from home and then of course the war came about, more or less, and my brothers were evacuated, ok?
DK: Yes.
RP: And my mother joined them as well. She was in a nervous disposition and she was frightened about bombing and so forth because we’d had air raids at night and so forth, so they went down to Ewhurst in Surrey, near Cranleigh and father and I were left on our own, well, my father was a works manager working in [unclear] not far from where I was born [laughs] and I joined him cause he said, you’ll have to join up sooner or later, join me on the firm and I’m with you and you are with me and so forth, seemed a good idea, so that’s what I did and then it came along that late 1940 talking to me dad, he said, you’ll be conscripted soon, it was something like that and he thought of the horrors of the First World War.
DK: Your father had fought in the First World War.
RP: Yes, yes, he was in the, well, it wasn’t RAF then, I wonder what it was,
DK: Royal Flying Corps?
RP: Royal Flying Corps, yes, and he was in France, so I said, I’ll think you ought to volunteer for the Air Force, so that’s what I did, that was late 1940. I went down to, think, Rushey Green, the shopping area and enlisted in the office there, the recruitment people and of course I heard nothing for ages and I thought, well, I must go back to them, and then third of March, ok?
DK: Yes, ok.
RP: [laughs]
DK: To see if the numbers are going round, yeah, ok, yeah, sorry, sorry.
RP: The third of March 1941 I got a note to report to Uxbridge which you may have heard of [laughs]
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.
RP: For aircrew medical, so I had that and passed ok and then went to work with my father and we came home and went back the next day and so and so and then I gained a few more months and I got a note to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground, aircrew reception, number one aircrew reception centre and so I reported there and that day we moved off to Babbacombe in Torquay so that was my introduction but oddly enough, although I wasn’t in the air force as such, my date of joining goes to 3rd of March 1941 [laughs], so that’s how it all came about and the first stop was Babbacombe football ground where we stepped under the stand and then we got kitted out and then walked to, walked, marched, walked to Torquay where we billeted, that was the start of ITW, Initial Training Wing, so that was that.
DK: At this stage, did you know what sort of training in the Air Force you were going to do?
RP: No. I passed for aircrew.
DK: Yeah, right, that’s all you knew at that time, just passing for aircrew.
RP: That’s right, aircrew and of course we walked to some school I suppose and had lessons there, aircraft recognition, Morse training, did that, and we did and drill of course, but drill on the sands of Torquay [laughs] when the weather was kind. And that was the early days you see but you don’t want me to go on with the history of
DK: Whatever you feel comfortable with.
RP: Alright.
DK: So from there on is it, it’s interesting to know how the training came about actually.
RP: Yes.
DK: Cause it’s an important part of story, if you think about it is to how you’ve gone from a civilian, you working in a clerk’s office and go over to them.
RP: Yes, yes, well, we finished at ITW, which is about six or eight weeks and then we were posted to elementary flying training school this was near Carlisle, where we continue with lessons and drill and so forth, aircraft recognition, Morse, navigation, these sort of things and started flying.
DK: So what would you’ve be flying in at that time? What type of aircraft?
RP: Tiger Moths.
DK: Right.
RP: Tiger Moth, no, not the Tiger Moth, I beg your pardon, a Magister, it was either Tiger Moth or Magister, so we went on to Magister which was a plain wing, Tiger Moth was a double wing, wasn’t it? So we did that, I had flying lessons, and then we were cut short and taken to Heaton Park in Manchester, [unclear] great place a holding unit and we were held there holding doing nothing except going down in the morning to the cinema, having your name called and coming home again until we got a ship to Canada.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: And Newfoundland and then Moncton, Moncton was on the news a few weeks ago, some unit first training there, anyway that was [unclear], so we spent several weeks at Moncton in Canada then we were posted down to Maxwell Field, Alabama.
DK: Oh wow! I guess this was your first time you’d left England then?
RP: Exactly.
DK: Was it a bit of a cultural shock, Canada and America?
RP: It was too, but I mean, I was eighteen, nineteen so if there was, it was educational naturally and it was interesting, terribly interesting so we boarded this train, I don’t think it was the Chattanooga Choochoo [laughs] we rode it quite a while to go to Alabama,
DK: Wow.
RP: Alabama, Maxwell Field, now the thing is that we were under the training of the American Army Air Corps, now they weren’t in the war and instead of being an RAF body at home as we’d started off, we were in the army air corps, so we really started initial training wing all over again, drill, marching, we did have recognition, aircraft recognition.
DK: So were you commanding officers there Americans?
RP: Yes.
DK: Right.
RP: Yes, but there was a liaison then, ref but I don’t it was very good actually [laughs] so that was rather good I shared very good billets, I shared a billet with three other chaps, one was Michael Rennie, the actor that was,
DK: Alright.
RP: He got through, stayed up there as an instructor but and two other chaps, the police force at that time were releasing men to go into the forces and these three boys were ten years older than me, I was the sprog you know, I was really a nuisance to them if I might say it but I will just relate that we off the morning, about six thirty, we reckoned to be outside with the band to take us to the mess for breakfast, rather comical really, it was only from, no distance, two hundred yards [laughs]
DK: Was it an American Air Force band, was it an American Air Force?
RP: Yes, oh yes. And of course we filed into the dining room one by one and stood behind the chair until we got an order to sit. Yes. Very rigid army air corps as it was, you see, they weren’t in the war and we were conforming which was a bit nuisance really, as it turned out. So we were there some weeks, doing what we’ve done before in England initial training, marching up and down and so forth, but some aircraft recognition and things like that but all very involved because it was their peace time. We were in their peacetime arrangement you see and this was the real [unclear]. From there I got posted to Florida, Arcadia in Florida for flying trading on Stearmans which was a heavier aircraft than the Magister and I couldn’t cope with it, it was too much for me and I got what was called washed out, now dozens of us got washed out, which was a great mistake because we might well have gone on under wartime conditions in the air force, in the RAF but we ran the army air corps, the American, so I got washed out, came back to Canada after weeks [laughs] doing nothing and then it was a question of remustering, doing something else, well I thought, goodness knows how long I’ve been doing nothing really so I took the course as an air gunner, about twelve weeks.
DK: This was in Canada.
RP: In Canada, Mountain View. And I went through the course and passed out. Then I was hanging around again before we went to Newfoundland and then came home on the boat of course. Going out we were sprogs and we were in hammocks and a lot of people slept on the deck. We weren’t escorted, we just went cause it was a big ship, and coming back it was different because we were sergeants, so we had a cabin, did we, or shared a cabin,
DK: Luxury.
RP: Pardon?
DK: Luxury.
RP: [laughs] so we got back here and then one of the next things was to go to elementary flying training school and there we got crewed up, very haphazard arrangement as you may know, you just said, oh, that chap looks like a nice bloke over there [laughs]
DK: How did you feel about that way of crewing up, where everybody just got together and you formed your own crews [unclear]?
RP: It worked out in a whole, it worked out and it worked out for us.
DK: Cause it’s quite unusual, it’s not a military thing to do when [unclear]
RP: No, it isn’t, but on a whole it worked out. And I don’t know of any units where they crewed up in that way where it didn’t work actually, so the upper gunner and me, we looked around, we went over to this pilot and said, would you be looking for two gunners? And I think he had a look at us and yes ok, so we crewed up and from there we went to Stradishall with Stirlings.
DK: Can you remember the name of the pilot that you crewed up with?
RP: Yes. Bernard North.
DK: Bernard North.
RP: Bernard North. I met him a lot after the war and I was with him the week he died in hospital. We were quite very good friends, so we crewed up and he’d been trained on Wellingtons I think, so Stirling was his first thing.
DK: Right, so you got to Stradishall then.
RP: That’s right.
DK: And that was what? The heavy conversion unit?
RP: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RP: That’s right. And
DK: So what, was that your first time you saw a Stirling?
RP: That’s right.
DK: What was your impression as when you saw it?
RP: Well, I thought it looked a handsome aircraft and I still do.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] pictures on the wall.
RP: Yes.
DK: They are saying there are still none around, isn’t it?
RP: Sorry?
DK: It’s just a shame that none exist anymore.
RP: Oh, that’s right, that’s right. I’ll give you a story about that one later on perhaps if you.
DK: Yes, definitely.
RP: So from there we were posted to 149 Squadron in May 1943 and when you consider that our official starting date in the Air Force was March 1941, it was two years and I’d done so and so all, do you follow me?
DK: Yeah, yeah. It’s a long period of time.
RP: That’s right. It was good fun in a way because I got numerous leaves and well, before I tell you about those, that was very good but that’s how we started off.
DK: So where was 149 Squadron based at this time?
RP: It was based at Lakenheath, it’s now leased at the American, big long run way which was needed. Yes, so that’s where we started our operations. We did, I did twenty five
DK: Right. All on Stirlings?
RP: That’s right. And I, we had a nasty trip on the last trip as it turned out and I went into hospital and when I came out, was back for duty again the CO said, well, you’re finished flying, Priest, you’ve done twenty five and we’ve cut the strip down from thirty trips to twenty five.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: They were losing so many Stirlings that it was pretty soppy, anyway that’s by the by. So I didn’t do any more flying then and then I went to Chipping Warden near Banbury as an instructor and that’s the way it went.
DK: So when you were in your role then as a gunner, what exactly was that? What was your role in there? You’re there on an operation, so you’re obviously the lookout then for.
RP: Yes, that was it you see, I liked being at the rear turret and flew most of my trips in the rear turret at the
DK: So you could choose then, you could
RP: The other gunner wasn’t very keen and he got rather nervous, if I may say that, he kept thinking he saw fighters coming when they weren’t there. So, this may I say, displeased the pilot a bit, so he went into the mid upper and I went into the rear one, I preferred that oddly enough because with the mid upper you were, half of your body was out in fresh air and you could fall [laughs]
DK: So you felt kind of safer in the rear turret?
RP: I did. Oddly enough, oddly enough, but of course if it came to an emergency, you’ve got to open the doors, slid them back, your parachute was hanging on a thing there, gotta get your parachute, you put it on all this time you see but then was the way it was, now I’ll just tell you about my last trip then. I could have made these notes but some of them are not too relevant. Yes, it was a trip to Hanover, it was my last trip twenty five, and we went out ok and over the target, well first of all, yes, over the target area, we got coned by searchlights and that’s a frightening thing cause it lights up the aircraft so you put all the bombs on the [unclear] and the pilot sensibly and very knowledgeably stalled the aircraft, we went down to, from fourteen thousand feet, which was ceiling at the Stirling, ours anyway I mean, the Lancs were up at twenty six, twenty eight and we stalled, levelled out to four thousand feet, now the thing is that we were well off course and the bomb aimer and navigator had to work together to get us back on course which we did but when we got into the target area it was all very quiet, in other words the main force had gone, we were on our jet jones but there were no anti-aircraft guns or fighters or anything like that
DK: So it was completely quiet over the city then?
RP: That’s right, it was fortunately, I think the fighters didn’t follow us down from the coned aircraft cause they thought we’d gone four thousand, down to four thousand feet quickly, anyway we had to climb up again to bomb to fourteen thousand feet which [unclear] up time and eventually we set course for home, we just about cleared the Alps for five thousand feet I mean Mount Blanc is fifteen and a half thousand feet and you could see over there [laughs] anyway we started homeward and we came across a Ju 88 going the other way. And we kept our head still, I think he did as well over the mountains we didn’t want to get into combat so we sensibly kept going, you see, and that was ok. Afterwards when we had our debriefing, we got chocked off about that, you should have engaged him, anyway my pilot said, so were it for you sir [unclear] [laughs] anyway now then we’ve come to the nitty-gritty, we get to the French coast to come home and I think it’s a known fact that when the crews got there they thought oh ok, famous last words [unclear] because you got to go over the North Sea and I was [unclear] to death about the North Sea, you think black’s black don’t you? But looking down there, you couldn’t see the sea, it’s just blackness, I was frightened, more frightened at that than anything else, frankly, anyway we were proceeding to come over the coast and over the sea we got attacked by two fighters, one, there was a second pilot coming for his first flight with us to get experience, he got his leg damaged from a shell and my pilot, who was actually flying the aircraft, had a shell land between his legs and go into the control column but it didn’t do any more damage than that but what happened was that, I was a mid-upper gunner this trip, one of the shells shattered my Perspex cover and I just got fresh air all around me. Well I fired because with the 303s you got to wait for the fighter to get in range to start with cause he’s got cannons, don’t he, you see [laughs]. We both fired at the one and he dived away underneath and then the other one came in and we fired again and so forth and he dived underneath. What happened to it I don’t know, we never saw it again. And we came home then, eight and a half hour trips, landed at Boscombe Down short of fuel, well we had to do that dive down to four thousand feet and then climb up again and got lost a bit, didn’t we, you did follow me?
DK: Yeah.
RP: Sorry, you chose, so we stayed there. But when I got out the aircraft, one of the crew said to me, what’s the matter with your eye, Ron? What’s the matter with your left eye? I said, I don’t know, [unclear], it’s alright, it was alright, ball of blood, and what had happened, well, the paramedics were there and I got into the ambulance quite straight away, took me to Ely hospital and as it turned out I got two pinheads, a fleck or whatever in my eye, miraculously missing the iris and I was in Ely hospital for ten days and eventually was the fact that two pieces were taken out with a giant magnet that came down on my head and then I came back to the squadron and that’s when the governor said, well, you’ve finished there, you’ve done twenty five, you’ve produced the tour and that was the end.
DK: So by that point your crew split up then, did they?
RP: Yes, but I kept in touch with my pilot, Bernard North and visited several times, at Chiswick where he lived and went to see him when he was in hospital and he died there unfortunately but anyway
DK: That’s a shame. Is that fairly recently
RP: Oh no, it’s going back fourteen years, yes, yes.
DK: Ok, right. So how did you feel when you were told, no more operations, were you?
RP: Well, I was quite pleased quite frankly because the last incident had more than bothered me if you know what I mean, I thought we were so near death and we were terribly short of petrol as well, I mean, Bernard North did a wonderful job of getting us to Boscombe Down, it’s on the coast you see, an RAF station there, you may know, so that was the worst day of the trip.
DK: Was that the only time you fired your guns in anger or was it?
RP: Yes, it was, it was.
DK: And that was, sorry, that was Hanover, was it?
RP: Yes, Hanover, yes.
DK: Can you remember the dates that was of the [unclear]
RP: Here, yes, [unclear] somewhere.
DK: Just for the record.
RP: Yes, quite so, excuse me aminute.
DK: That’s ok.
RP: 27th of September 1943.
DK: Ok.
RP: Yes. Our last stop the tour with Stirlings had been reduced from thirty to twenty five. It’s an odd thing that our aircraft that we flew in about fifteen times EF4711, it’s one of these.
DK: Ah.
RP: It’s on the ground, it might be that one.
DK: Alright.
RP: And if you can see it, I can’t properly.
DK: So, EF
RP: EF4711.
DK: That’s EF411
RP: Yes.
DK: That one.
RP: That’s it. I think it’s that one.
DK: Yeah. EF411.
RP: That’s the aircraft. Now that is reputed to have done over sixty, near seventy operations.
DK: Right.
RP: It was the only, that was the highest one on 149 Squadron.
DK: Was that the one where the incident happened at Hanover?
RP: Yes, yes, yes.
DK: Alright. So, you’re in the mid upper turret.
RP: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RP: And, it was flying originally at Mildenhall.
DK: Right.
RP: And then it came to us and we did about fifteen in it. And it went on to do nearly seventy ops.
DK: Good. So apart from Hanover then, what were your other targets?
RP: Well, yes, most of the targets were in the Ruhr.
DK: Right.
RP: Short trips, if I can say that, three and a half, four hours, Essen, Dusseldorf, Dortmund, the like, and almost uneventful if I may say, you could always hear the shells on the aircraft, like ice
DK: Yeah.
RP: You know, ice dropping from the sky, but [unclear] we were never bothered by fighters, ever, before, no. But I just got something as an aside here, it was a [unclear] factory by the way that we were bombing. On the 9th of August ’43 it was arranged that we were to welcome a group of RAFC cadets to fly with us on a routine air test, one of the group had been allowed to M for Mother which was our aircraft and he stood with us at the dispersal, waiting to board, at this moment we watched flight sergeant Cummings take-off on his air test with another cadet, he took off and with increasing horror he lost power, struggled to maintain height over a forest area, finally thus scanning the tree tops, he stood on his tail and went into ground. All were killed. Now, Bernard North said to our cadet who’d watched it, we’ve all watched it, that’s not gonna happen to us, it’s very, very rare indeed, I’ve never seen it happen before but if you don’t want to come with us we’ll understand. So he said, yes, I’d like to go and he did and Bernard congratulated him on sticking it out, being plucky. Now an odd thing, an aside to that is some years afterwards, good few years afterwards I had a call from a Mister Cummings in France, the father of the pilot and actually the official record of it is that it was pilot error and he said to me, what can you tell me about my son’s aircraft and the crash? I said, well, and of course some time elapsed for all this you see, so I said, well, we were watching what happened, and it’s our opinion and certainly mine that it wasn’t pilot error, it was a mechanical failure. Now the records don’t show that but I thought it would be rather nice to tell him so he said, oh thank you very much Mr Priest, that’s very kind of you. So I said, well, don’t bother about it anymore, your son wasn’t seriously involved in the mishap, well, he died but I mean, it wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t his fault, I thought that was rather good. Oh, further episode of that trip to, the last trip to Hanover,
DK: Ok [unclear].
RP: Yes, we landed without further incident, that’s after the fighter, and at debriefing he CO was critic that we did not seek contact with the Ju 88, next day the bombing leader of the bombing section congratulated Bernard on being alive. So he said to him, why do you say that for? So he said, we found no photograph of your target but we did find the flare that should have gone out lying in the back of your aircraft, when you stalled the flare, when you stalled the plane the flare actually [unclear] slid vertically out of the chute and landed on [unclear] and there was a, it was a rotating thing, he said, on inspection it was found that the vibration and [unclear] had caused the projector on the flare to rotate, when you left the aircraft, there were just three more revolutions before it [unclear], it was the aircraft so I just [laughs].
DK: So who said you should have engaged the Ju 88?
RP: The CO at the debriefing, the debriefing.
DK: Ah right. Cause I was always under the impression you weren’t supposed to do that unless they engaged you because you are drawing attention to yourself.
RP: Well quite right, it was only fifty yards away.
DK: Yeah, and if he’s not bothering you
RP: Yeah.
DK: You don’t want to draw attention to yourself.
RP: Well, this is what the CO said cause Bernard was quite upset about it
DK: Not surprised.
RP: And we were over the [unclear] Alps and I was, it was majestic flying over the Alps but when you consider that our ceiling was fourteen thousand feet, it wasn’t very much to spare and I kept thinking, crickey, if anything happens to us now but there are no more fighters, do you see?
DK: Yes. How did you feel about the Stirlings though because of their lack of ceiling [unclear] the Lancasters were at ten thousand feet above you?
RP: Well, yes I know, well of course it was really a pilot thing really, Bernard liked the aircraft, he didn’t initially, Bernard my pilot, he liked the aircraft and I think he was quite attached to it but it was very nosey, there’s a big long nose on it, I liked it very much. I did fly in Lancasters later on but I liked it but it got, it stood very tall of course and the undercarriage was suspect and very often that was a cause of accidents taking off or landing.
DK: Yeah. So on a normal operation then, how did that work during the day? Did you know in the mornings that you’d be flying that night or?
RP: Yes, cause you’d go to a briefing you see and you’d wonder what was [unclear] [laughs] what’s it got to be, I never did go to Berlin, I’m not, but it was mainly the Ruhr, about nine trips to the Ruhr, three or four hours, which was rather good in a way but it was pretty sweaty over the Ruhr, Essen, Krupsworks and so forth, all the way down the Ruhr, the Rhine, these factories and where all the industry was.
DK: So just before the mission then, your crews got together and then you go out to the aircraft and
RP: That’s right, well, you have a good breakfast to start with [laughs], a good meal and you go out to the aircraft and for a certain time etcetera and then you are signalled off one by one, quite a sight to see them all lined up and taxing and ready.
DK: And did you see much of other aircraft at night or [unclear]?
RP: No, actually never did and very often I was, chaps reported they saw aircraft burning or it’s another one down here but I never did, I never did, maybe fourteen thousand feet, we were below what was happening further up, you see, I don’t know, cause the Halifax couldn’t get up to the ceiling of the Lancaster but again he got well above us, yes. There’s one here, I’m not sure of the date and target but the weather closed in and some seventy aircraft crashed on return, many being diverted from base, it was thought that conditions at Lakenheath were just about ok and we prepared to land in patchy visibility plus low cloud and mist. On the final approach Bernard lost sight of the runway and he gained the height and clipped, [unclear] the height and clipped the top of bordering trees, the undercarriage seemed intact and we didn’t know at the time [unclear] and we made a good landing, unfortunately Bernard found the trees had affected his brakes and contact with the trees had severed the brake candles, the brake cables, we must have swing off the end of the runway at speed and we careened round the perimeter [laughs], fortunately missing parked aircraft and other vehicles. It then still being in one piece and called the flight control who said [unclear] get off the air! There are others there trying to get down and in more trouble than you. Who said the words [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
RP: It was a [unclear] factory that we were going to Turin. Three days later we went again, I think only Stirlings went on that, about two hundred aircraft.
DK: That would be a long trip to Turin.
RP: Eight and a half hours, that was the longest one, the first one was a bit less than that but it was eight hours yes. I think that’s about it.
DK: Yeah, ok. So after your twenty five operations then you went, you were training?
RP: Yes, you went off as an instructor.
DK: Instructor
RP: All the crew did that, whether you’re a pilot or a navigator, you were posted to an operational training unit to give your experiences to would coming air gunners or navigators or
DK: So you were instructing new gunners then.
RP: Yes, that’s right, yes, Silverstone
DK: Silverstone. Yeah.
RP: Silverstone.
DK: What were you flying on while you were doing your
RP: Wellingtons. Yes.
DK: So how did you feel about having all trainees?
RP: Well, I felt responsible in a way but I never told them details, I never told anybody details [laughs] but you just got on with it and you wondered what might happen to them but well, that was the way it went, you see.
DK: So you were training, you were instructing, sorry, at the war’s end.
RP: Yes. Well, no, the war was still on then, but perhaps foolishly I don’t know I palled up with a good pilot at Silverstone while instructing and I think, like so many aircrew that had done a tour, they wanted to get back again, which was pretty soppy and of course some of them did another tour, some of them didn’t. Some of them went and did, our wireless op, went on special duties and he died some years ago, long time ago and I read his obituary in the paper, ninety three ops he did all together cause he did five, twenty five with us and then dropping supplies and agents and so forth. Pretty arduous really cause you couldn’t hang about long when you got down to let the men out or pick somebody up
DK: Can you remember his name, the wireless operator?
RP: Rowley.
DK: Rowley.
RP: Rowley. He was a printer in the old-fashioned way.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Printer, Sid Rowley, yes.
DK: So you met up with his pilot at Silverstone.
RP: Yes. I did [laughs] We were going to do another tour. So he was a Wellington man and he hadn’t been on Stirlings or Lancasters so we had to go on a course, we all went on this course, we picked up other navigator and bomb aimer and so forth and we went up to North Lincolnshire for, Wigsley, North Lincolnshire to a course on Lancasters cause he hadn’t flown Lanc and then we went down to 635 Squadron which was the sister squadron of 617 actually but that’s by and by and we were operational then, flying all together operational training, and then the bomb was dropped but we were part of the Tiger Force, Tiger Force to go and bomb Japan.
DK: So what was your feelings when you knew the war ended rather suddenly and you weren’t going out to the Far East? How did you feel about that?
RP: Well, really, I was quite relieved, quite relieved, and then of course, with so many aircrew not needed any more, we went up to a station called Burn near Selby which [unclear] the weeks on end being interviewed as to what we might be suitable for and because I’d been in accountance, I went on an accountance course, I’ve got commissioned by the way while I was on the squadron cause I went on a gunnery course and did very well. And they said, well you Priest, we haven’t got a lot of commissioned air gunners, we want to put you anyway [unclear], anyway I took it on. But greatly relieved when the big bomb was dropped and that was it you see. But we got to Burn and we had wait there and hang about, have interviews, see what we might be suitable for and I was put to accountance and then end of January I got, I was due for demob more or less in the August, so I was quite amazed to get an overseas posting and we were going to get married at Easter [laughs] and I was posted to North Africa, Cairo initially at group headquarters and then went up to a little station called Benina, Benina in Libya, Libya, and I was accountant officer there for some many months, perhaps nearly a year and then I got re-stationed at El Adem, which was Gaddafi’s principal airport, a very lovely place, specially built, well, Italians specially built billets and so forth, and I did that until I eventually got demob leave and came home, demobbed in [unclear] 2nd August [laughs].
DK: So what was your career after the RAF then?
RP: Yes, that was very thoughtful, yes. Well, I mean, I spent six years in the Air Force, I was only a glorified good office boy before I went in but I went for a couple of jobs and I could have got either one and I decided on one which was to work for the Co-operative Permanent building society, that was what it was called then, changed its name to Nationwide later on and I got taken on there as a clerk cashier and worked on head office counter which was rather prestigious actually at New Oxford House not far from Holborn tube station and from there I went to Portsmouth and then to Chester as assistant manager and then to Peterborough, my own branch which eventually was engulfed in a fire, we’d only been in it seven months, terrific fire, got the photographs and I stayed in Peterborough quite a time cause I had changes of office, moved about and I found a very nice place on Long Causeway which was being vacated by what was then almost a supermarket, Home and Colonial I think it was, and I told my people that this property was available to us, it was opposite the opening to Queensway, the internal thing so it was well positioned, Long Causeway, do you know Peterborough?
DK: Yes.
RP: Not too. [unclear] Not been here [unclear]
DK: Getting to die better.
RP: Yes, so I got this, I found this spot being vacated and I wrote to my people, in touch with my people and said this will make a good office, situation, location from where we are now, that was after the fire and my governor, the big man came down and walked around it, there was a big area at the back for parking of cars and there was a letting available upstairs and he said, it’s over four hundred pounds at that price, the board will never pay that, they’ll never, anyway they did and it’s a very popular office now although I say I got in there and we worked it up and then eventually our last seven years I went to Luton and was manager there with Dunstable and Hitchin and [unclear] as well and I didn’t like Luton very much but anyway it was financially ok and promotion that’s where I stayed for seven years and then retired 1984 [laughs].
DK: So after all these years then, looking back on your period in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command, how do you feel about it looking back now?
RP: Yes. Well, I, I know you see I was involved with the Hamburg bombing, three times in four nights, Hamburg, and I mean, it is quite an effort to get there and do any bombing, let alone whatever. I reflected and my pilot did of all the people we’d killed, certainly in Hamburg, and I was sorry about that but I felt I’d made a contribution, you see, my daughter said to me, when you’re sitting in the turret and whatever and so, what are you thinking about? Well I said, I was excited, I was,
DK: Ok. Just make sure that we got enough tape there.
RP: [laughs] I said I was excited as a young man and you were thrilled because you thought I had to do, bomb, they bombed Coventry and [unclear] didn’t they? [laughs] So I was pleased with what I’ve done although I regret it. The terrible tragedy of killing so many people because it developed in the end of 1943 into area bombing, the idea was of course to frighten the death out of the population which never occurred, the same with the Battle of Britain, you know, people at home, [unclear], you know, didn’t they? Sorry all this [laughs]
DK: It’s ok. Alright, it’s alright. No, ok, still going, yeah, ok.
RP: So, I was pleased with my performance and when I look back on it and I’ve written my life story and given it to Angela, it’s short of certain material that I ought to remember, I’ve remembered but it is my own hand writing, she talks about getting it printed.
DK: Is Angela your daughter?
RP: Yes.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: But I felt, no, I don’t want it, it’s for my daughter, but particularly for my grandson and my great granddaughter cause know something about me, so I’m happy about that.
DK: So were you on all of the Hamburg raids or?
RP: Yes, well the Americans went there during the day, just to make matters worse or whatever.
DK: So you went on three
RP: Three in four nights, that’s pretty sweaty, three in four nights but of course it was a terrible thing, I mean we carried incendiaries in the main, in the [unclear] but of course as you probably know there was a very hot, humid day like we’ve had here the last three days and the wind got up and aggravated the fires, there was some massive firestorm right through the city, terrible, people dying in the streets, so we were told.
DK: But you wouldn’t have been aware of this at the time though [unclear]
RP: Oh no, oh no, no, no.
DK: And when you are having these briefings before the operation
RP: Yes.
DK: Was it clear as to what your targets were, was it like the centre of the city or
RP: Oh yes, oh yes, well, we were given
DK: They were quite up front about you hitting the city
RP: Yes, well, yes they were quite up front what the aiming point was, oh yes, it’s a very full briefing and of course you got the route mapped out to avoid fighters and so on and so forth, didn’t always work cause on the Nuremberg raid, which I wasn’t on thank goodness, we’d lost nearly a hundred aircraft, we lost over ninety on the occasion itself, let alone what we lost landing and all that, that was terrible, badly arranged.
DK: Was a straight line, was in straight, directly
RP: Well no, and up front you see, they were diversion raids, a small force would attack something near the target or just off the line of the target to induce people to, the enemy to think that’s where it was gonna be, you see, where it was, it’s gonna be there.
DK: So the Hamburg raid then, that was the first time they used Window, wasn’t it?
RP: Yes it was, it was.
DK: So do you remember anything about the drops of Window?
RP: Well, that was, the wireless op sent Rowley to drop the Window every so often and
DK: Was it explained to you before the Hamburg raid what Window would do?
RP: Oh yes, exactly, what it was going to do and it worked.
DK: Disrupt the radar.
RP: And it worked subsequently afterwards. I think we got it in mind for some time but we were frightened that the Germans would use it back on us because it wasn’t, you know, it was an understandable exercise these strips of paper, like making a Christmas decoration, you know, like that, [unclear], all in bundles, I’ve chucked it out and
DK: So when it came to the third Hamburg raid, how did you feel about that when you were going again?
RP: Well, it was a rotten night and I don’t’ think we should have gone because the damage had been really done and of course usually after a raid Mosquitoes go over and take photographs so we jolly well knew what we’d done, so I think it was superfluous really and it was a rotten night for weather and I know we got caught in an electrical storm, [unclear] lights flashing all over the aircraft, which frightened one a bit [laughs], yes.
DK: So you look back now, you said you spoke to your pilot about looking back at the
RP: Oh yes.
DK: What was his feelings on
RP: Oh, his feelings were deeper than mine, he regretted a lot of the raids that he went on, I mean when you went to, we went to France a couple of times, Montlucon, which was a Dunlop rubber factory, I mean, that’s what you were going for, you know that was understandable you see but the area bombing, in other words if anything got in our way, it was hard luck, wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
RP: I’ m afraid to say that. Yes.
DK: Ok.
RP: I’ve said enough.
DK: I was gonna say, I could listen to you for hours but I’m
RP: Oh, I’ve had a year, I’ve had an hour.
DK: I’m more concerned about yourself but let’s, I’ll stop it there if that’s ok.
RP: Yes. I’ve got one or two things perhaps to show you.
DK: Ok, let me just
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Priest
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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APriestR160720
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:57:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Priest worked in accountancy before the war and then served as a rear gunner, flying twenty five operations with 149 Squadron from RAF Lakenheath all on Stirlings. Describes his training in England, Canada and the United States, under the American Army Air Corps; a first-hand account of a crash landing; dogfights over the North Sea; witnessing a plane crash, initially attributed to pilot error, but later on confirmed to be caused by a mechanical failure. Remembers his last operation to Hanover, where they crossed an enemy aircraft on their way back without engaging it in combat and being reprimanded for that later at the debriefing. Remembers flying three operations on Hamburg in four nights and expresses his views on area bombing. Mentions the use of Window in the Hamburg operation. Remembers being posted at the end of the war to Libya, where he served as an accountant officer. Tells of his life after the war.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
Florida--Arcadia
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Florida
Alabama
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941-03-03
1943-09-27
149 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
crash
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Magister
perception of bombing war
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stradishall
Stearman
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1088/11546/ARamseyNGC150916.2.mp3
f5e48111090616c77d76501725c9571a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ramsey, Neil
Neil Gordon Creswell Ramsey
N G C Ramsey
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Neil Ramsey DFC (b. 1919, Royal Air Force), two cartoons and two memoirs. He flew operations with 105 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Neil and Susan Ramsey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ramsey, NGC
Transcribed audio recording
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SAR: Whether he wants to tell them himself or whether it’s going be me. I don’t know.
DK: I’ll just, I’ll just do the intro here. David Kavanagh, International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Neil Ramsey on the 16th of September. Should remember that. It’s Battle of Britain Day wasn’t it? Ok.
SAR: Yeah.
DK: That’s recording ok. If I keep looking down I’m just checking that this is working.
SAR: Ok
DK: I’m not being rude.
SAR: No.
[rustling papers]
SAR: That’s just a list different places where he was posted and so on.
DK: Ok. So I’ve got he was with 105 Squadron.
SAR: Yeah. He was. You were with 75 first weren’t you?
DK: 75 squadron.
DR: Yeah.
SAR: And that, was what planes was that?
NR: Hmmn?
SAR: 75. What planes was that?
NR: What planes? Well it was still a Pathfinder. It was the original.
SAR: But 75 was where Jimmy was wasn’t it? Wasn’t that your New Zealand squadron?
NR: Yeah.
SAR: So they were Wellingtons. Yeah?
DK: So was your role, you were the pilot.
NR: Yeah.
DK: You were a pilot. So you flew Wellingtons to start with.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Yeah.
DK: And then on to the Mosquitoes.
NR: No.
DK: No.
SAR: Not, not straight away.
DK: Not straight away
SAR: No. What did you do in between? Was Defford in between?
NR: Yeah. I flew at Defford.
DK: Right. Ok.
NR: Which you’ve heard of.
DK: I’ve heard of Defford. Obvious. Yes.
SAR: At one time you’d flown every twin and four engined in service hadn’t you while you were at Defford because they were testing out for radar and things.
DK: Oh is that what it was. It was radar being researched.
SAR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So was it mostly twin-engine types?
NR: Yeah. At that. Twins and more.
DK: Right. Did that include the Blenheim at any time?
NR: Hmmn?
DK: Did you fly Blenheims?
NR: No.
DK: No. Ok. Wellington.
SAR: He even flew a Lancaster but not in, not in anger.
DK: Was that, was that after the war?
SAR: No. No.
DK: Oh it was during the war. Ok.
SAR: During the war but just doing radar testing and things.
DK: So it was with the Mosquitos with the Pathfinder force.
SAR: That was where you had the most fun wasn’t it? Apart from when you was on Wellingtons. You’ve probably heard of Jimmy Ward. The new Zealander who got a VC for going out on the wing to put the fire out.
DK: That’s right. Yes.
SAR: Yeah. Well that was one of his best pals. If you see, if you ever see a picture. I don’t know why I haven’t brought that actually. Maybe I have. If you ever see a picture of Jimmy on the day that he got his DFC.
DK: Right.
SAR: Neil is in the background. For some reason I haven’t brought that one. But [pause] so many things. Did so many things and then towards the end of the war. After — I’m different with times. That’s Jimmy.
DK: Oh right.
SAR: On the day he got the VC. And that’s Neil there.
DK: There you are. In the background. Did you know Jimmy well?
NR: Yeah.
DK: A very brave man. So is that the day he got his Victoria Cross?
NR: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Did you, did you fly with him at all at any time?
NR: Probably but not too noticeably.
DK: No. No.
SAR: Forgotten what that is. That’s Pathfinder Squadron at Bourne.
DK: I’ll put those on here.
SAR: Of course bar Freddy was the most famous Mosquito. It did more trips that any of the others so he flew that one quite a lot.
DK: Are you in this photo?
NR: Sure to be.
SAR: Yeah.
DK: Sure to be. You’re in there somewhere.
SAR: That one. That’s the actual photograph. At the back. That’s Bourne.
DK: Oh right. Bourne. So this Mosquito was with 105 Squadron?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah
SAR: Yeah. It did more trips than any other Mosquito didn’t it? And then just at the end of the war they went and crashed it at an air show.
DK: That was, that was in Canada wasn’t it? I believe. Yeah. Oh dear. Did you fly that particular Mosquito?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. It’s got two hundred and seven missions on that.
SAR: But then when — I get confused with the timings, when did you — it was still during the war. Just before the war ended that you and Don went on to Diplomatic Mail.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Still flying a Mosquito. And then you finished and then you came back for the Berlin Airlift and stayed in and went on to Far East Command. Is that right? Is that in the right order? Yeah.
DK: So what, what was the Diplomatic Mail then. Was these the flights to Sweden and places?
SAR: All over Europe.
NR: All over. Yeah.
DK: And that was in Mosquitoes again.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: They held the record for times didn’t you, to all the capitals, didn’t you? You and Don.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Held the record.
DK: Really
SAR: They used to get the English papers in Lisbon or Rome or something before people had got them in London. And they had all kinds of — what to tell. There are countless stories about what you did when you were doing that in the Mosquito. All the, all the smuggling things you used to do. What did it start off with? It started. What did you take from England?
DK: Don’t say you were bringing contraband back.
SAR: Not really. It was a big swapsie thing.
NR: Oh swap. That’s ok.
SAR: That’s when he was Dip Mail
DK: Ok.
SAR: which, it’s the only picture I’ve got of him without a moustache. You took, you took nutmegs.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: From England
NR: Nutmeg was the favourite thing. Everybody wanted it.
DK: Right.
NR: In Europe.
SAR: And then you would sell your nutmegs and buy what?
NR: Hmmn?
SAR: You sold the nutmegs and bought what?
NR: I can’t remember.
SAR: Well as far as I know he sold his nutmegs in Belgium mostly.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Didn’t you?
NR: Right.
SAR: And bought cigarettes.
NR: Oh yeah.
SAR: And took the cigarettes to Greece. Was it Greece where you got the bicycles? Oh no. You used to sometimes take bicycle tyres as well as nutmegs didn’t you? Because people wanted bicycle inner tyres, inner tubes. And then they used to get, they used to bring sponges back from Greece in return, you know.
DK: I suppose –
SAR: They had a lot of fun
DK: With the bicycle tyres. I suppose the rubber was scarce.
SAR: Yeah
DK: That’s why they needed the inner tubes and things.
SAR: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
DK: So did the, all the diplomatic bags and things go in the bomb bay of the Mosquito?
NR: Yeah.
DK: So you carried them there.
SAR: What have I done with these other little things here? Yeah. I’ve done you some of the photocopies of things
DK: OK.
SAR: That you can take away with you.
DK: Ok.
SAR: Which you’ve got quite a few other little bits because the local village magazine here did a little bit about him and that’s got some of his story on it as well.
DK: Right. Excellent. Ok. Thanks. So what, what were your thoughts of flying the Mosquito. Was it a good aircraft?
NR: Yeah. Fine. Fine. Very, very, good.
DK: Very manoeuvrable.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Made of, made of, made of wood I believe.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: It was thirty years ago, thirty five years ago when we got together. He was in the midst of building a boat out of plywood. And the man who designed the boat was also a Mosquito pilot.
NR: Right.
SAR: So they, you know, knew how to –
NR: How to build a boat.
SAR: The strength of plywood. We’ve done it for seven years.
NR: It’s very strong.
SAR: Yes. Yes. Especially if you sort of put across, you know, different layers.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Quite an amazing aircraft. So do you remember many of the operations you did with the Pathfinder force?
NR: I can remember a lot of them but they’re all mixed up now.
DK: Is there any that stand out?
SAR: Where were you coming back from that time when you and Don ended up in the Russian zone and got treated so royally? You were posted missing at home weren’t you but in actual fact you were being looked after by the Russians.
DK: Did they, did they look after you well? So what had happened? Had the aircraft been damaged or —
NR: No.
DK: Mechanical problem?
NR: No.
SAR: Why did you have to, why did you land there? Just ‘cause, you had lost [Stubbing?] weren’t you? Don, I mean Don was a good navigator but he told, he didn’t think you were in the Russian zone when you came down did he?
DK: You got a bit lost then.
SAR: That’s, that’s Don Bower who was his navigator.
DK: Oh right.
SAR: But he’s no longer with us.
DK: Ok. So when was this taken?
SAR: That was taken about fifteen years ago I should think. That was at a Pathfinder reunion.
DK: Did you regularly go to the reunions?
SAR: Yes. We used to. When he was better.
DK: Wyton wasn’t it?
SAR: Wyton. Yeah
DK: Yes. Yeah.
SAR: Yeah. And we went to a particular anniversary one at Ely Cathedral as well. It was a special one.
DK: Right.
SAR: Now, this time when he came down in the Russian zone the Russians were quite nice to them, you know, but they wanted to have a chance to look over the aircraft so they they treated you to a really slap up meal and everything. Don was from the isle of Barra so he had lived on whisky as a child more or less and it was impossible to get him drunk. He was never absolutely sober but you never saw him drunk. And he drank all these Russians under the table.
DK: That takes, that takes some doing.
SAR: Yeah.
DK: They’re getting the vodka out
SAR: Yeah. And then the next day they must have really trusted them because they gave them shotguns and things and took them out duck shooting.
DK: Oh right.
SAR: And of course Neil was a big wildfowler in his youth so he shot more ducks than the Russians so in the end they said, ‘You’d better get off back home then.’ [laughs]
DK: Outstayed their welcome.
SAR: In the meantime they’d been posted missing. Then they suddenly arrived back.
DK: Right.
SAR: Having had a lovely time with these Russians. Didn’t they take you to the opera as well?
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Yeah. And then as I say he came back for Berlin Airlift didn’t you? Which always amazes me, you know, when they say today about a near miss or something and they’re two miles apart whereas there they’d got none of the modern things.
DK: No. That’s right.
SAR: And they were landing every ninety seconds or something.
DK: So can you remember much about the Berlin Airlift?
NR: Quite a bit
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft you were flying into Berlin?
NR: Yeah.
DK: What were they?
NR: The old Wellingtons.
DK: Wellingtons. Oh. All full of cargo.
SAR: Full of food weren’t they?
DK: Full of food.
NR: We used to load it with everything we could. So I wouldn’t tell you, couldn’t tell you what the load was because it was never recorded. It was just —
DK: Oh. They just put the cargo in and away you went.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: And after that finished he stayed on and went on to Far East Transport and did — took the scientists to Christmas island and were in, you were based in Changi weren’t you? And there he started sailing and ended up, when you came back to the UK, being in the RAF sailing team.
NR: Yeah.
SAR: Sailing the, you know, Windfall yachts that they got from the Germans. The hundred foot.
DK: Right.
SAR: Mast things.
DK: So was he sailing for many years then?
SAR: Yeah. Yes. That’s the cup that they won which was the Cowes to Dinard thing that they won once which —
DK: Ok.
SAR: Yeah. He’d always been interested in boats. As I say we lived on this boat that he built for seven years.
DK: Did you sell the boat then?
SAR: Yes.
DK: Does it still exist. Do we know?
SAR: I don’t know. I’m not sure. We sold it in Holland because we went all around Europe when we lived on it so we ended up selling it in Holland. We don’t know if it’s still on the go or not.
DK: So what did you prefer? Flying an aircraft or skippering a boat?
NR: About fifty fifty.
DK: Fifty fifty. Ok.
SAR: What else have we got for you to take away. That’s the thing about Defford.
DK: Ok
SAR: People that he remembers at Defford. Although there was a chap that did cartoons a lot at Defford.
DK: Do you remember the Rose and Crown pub?
NR: Yeah. It wasn’t the only pub that I remember.
DK: Oh you remember a few pubs.
SAR: And that’s another cartoon. That’s of Peter Boggis who was a friend of ours.
DK: Oh right.
SAR: And that, that letter that’s accompanying it actually written by Peter to Neil but it’s got some quite interesting bits in it. But he’s not with us anymore. Peter.
DK: So you flew the Lancaster once.
NR: I flew it often.
DK: Often. Oh ok.
SAR: But not in anger.
DK: What did you think of the Lancaster? A good aircraft?
NR: Yeah. Not bad.
SAR: You might get more out of him if I’m not here to prompt. I’ll go and get us a drink. Would you like a tea or a coffee or something?
DK: Can I have a tea please?
SAR: Tea. Sure. If you’d like to have a poke through these things and ask him questions about them. You might get on a bit. Get on a bit better. I don’t know.
DK: Ok. Thank you. You as a young man. [pause] You were awarded the DFC.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. [pause] Is that you again? In the Mosquito.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember where that was?
NR: No. I remember the bloke, the other chap on the end.
DK: Who was that? Who was he? So he would have been your navigator?
NR: No.
DK: Oh he was another pilot.
NR: Another pilot.
DK: Another pilot. Ok.
[pause]
DK: Now, did you fly the Avro Anson?
NR: No.
DK: No
NR: I think I flew in it a time or two.
DK: You flew in it. Ok [pause] Can you remember who the air gunner was?
NR: Reg McLean.
DK: Ok. Was he part of your crew at one point?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
NR: He was my rear gunner.
DK: That’s on the Wellingtons?
NR: Yeah.
DK: That’s a Wellington there isn’t it?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Was he a good air gunner?
NR: Very good.
DK: Very good. Yeah. Ah. F for Freddie. Mosquito. So did you, did you actually fly F for Freddie?
NR: Well we used to fly them all.
DK: Right. Ok.
NR: It just depended whether you came in the draw whether you were flying that day. Very difficult to say who flew what because —
DK: They just gave you the aircraft.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. That’s a lovely photo of a Wellington.
NR: Yeah. It is isn’t it?
DK: Very atmospheric with all the clouds. Lovely photo. That’s the Wellington again. Is that, is that your crew?
NR: Yeah. That was the original crew.
DK: That’s crew and ground crew there isn’t it?
NR: Yeah.
DK: I read on the back — it says Wellington N for Nuts. Feltwell. And you’re second right at the rear.
NR: Yeah.
DK: There you are there. Same photo again. Out shooting.
NR: Yeah.
DK: And do you remember the dog? We’ve got a dog. He’d make a good gun dog. He’s always chasing things. Rabbits. Whatever. Yeah. Shot a few there.
SAR: I forgot to ask you whether you took sugar or not.
DK: No. No. Thank you.
SAR: You don’t.
DK: I don’t. No.
SAR: Ok. Are you doing better without me here?
DK: Ok.
SAR: I’ll stay out then. if you want me I’ll just be down the corridor.
DK: Ok. Thanks. So you shot a few there?
NR: Yeah.
DK: That’s the Defford reunion 2002.
NR: I haven’t seen that for years. That photograph.
DK: Yeah.
NR: I think this is me isn’t it?
DK: Looks like it. Yes. I think that’s you.
[pause]
DK: It looks, it looks like the Wellington again there. Can you remember which squadron you were with, with the Wellingtons?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Which squadron was that?
NR: Well I mainly was flying W.
DK: Oh ok.
NR: Anything with W on it is mine.
DK: Right. There’s a picture of Defford there from the air. Recognise that? RAF Defford.
NR: Yeah.
DK: Was it a good airfield?
NR: Very good.
DK: This looks like an Avro York.
NR: Yeah. Well that was after I left Defford.
DK: So that would have been the Berlin Airlift then?
NR: Yeah.
DK: So you would have been flying Avro Yorks to Berlin?
NR: Yeah. I can still remember these blokes you know.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember their names?
NR: Most of them. I can’t remember all their names.
DK: No. What was, what was the Avro York like to fly?
NR: Very good.
DK: Was it? Was it much different to the Lancaster because they had the same wings didn’t they?
NR: It was exactly the same I think.
DK: Really. Had a bigger fuselage. That looks like an early photo. Looks like early in your flying career.
NR: Yeah. Very early.
DK: Was that while you were training?
NR: Yeah. That was when I first put a flying suit on.
DK: So what was the first aircraft you, you flew? What did they train you on?
NR: More or less straight on to those. On to —
DK: Really. Yes. You don’t need all the warm clothing now to fly, do you?
NR: No.
DK: It’s a lot more comfortable.
NR: Very much more.
DK: That looks to me that might be a Hastings. Remember the Hastings? Looks like in the Far East. There’s another one there. That’s a Hastings as well isn’t it? Must have been taken at the same time.
NR: Yeah.
DK: You remember where that was?
[pause]
DK: It wasn’t, wasn’t Christmas Island was it?
NR: No. Christmas Island was very much later.
DK: Oh. [pause] so was it, was it a bit strange for you going to Berlin delivering food?
NR: Not really.
DK: Because a few years before obviously, you were —
NR: Yeah.
DK: You were at war with Germany.
NR: Yeah. Yeah. No, it all worked very well really.
DK: Do you feel that was an interesting part of your life? The Berlin Airlift.
NR: Very.
DK: What state was Berlin like at the time?
NR: Pretty shot.
DK: How did the Germans treat you?
NR: Quite well really. Yeah. We never had any trouble with them.
DK: No.
[pause]
DK: Ok. If you’re a little tired I can stop there if you like.
NR: If you can put up with me on in —
DK: That’s ok. No. No. You take your time. Do you remember much about the Pathfinder force and what your role was?
NR: Well we were the only marker.
DK: Ok. So you dropped markers.
NR: No. We didn’t drop things in those days.
DK: Ok. So you just flew out to the targets then before the, before the main force.
[pause]
DK: Were you based at Moreton in Marsh? It’s the Fire Service College now where they train all the firemen. Did you fly Wellingtons from there then? Was it Wellingtons?
NR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. It’s got here rugby tour in Japan. Did you play rugby?
NR: No.
DK: No. oh ok. Did you go to Japan though?
NR: We did with the team. Yeah.
DK: Did you fly the team there then?
NR: We flew them about. Yeah.
DK: Oh ok. It says the Combined Services Rugby Tour. That’s 1957. So when did you leave the air force then? Was it the 1960s?
[pause]
DK: Lots of interesting photographs. Very interesting. Thank you for letting me look at them. Ok. I’ll go, I’ll go and see if your wife’s around.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Neil Ramsey
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARamseyNGC150916
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:33:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Neil Ramsey flew operations as a pilot with 75 and 105 Squadron Pathfinders. Neil flew twin engine aircraft, including the Wellington and later the Mosquito. Neil talks about New Zealander Jimmy Ward, who was awarded a Victoria Cross. Neil Ramsey was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross. Neil participated in the Berlin Airlift and also recalls getting lost and landing in the Russian zone, and was looked after by Russian forces.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Contributor
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Benjamin Turner
105 Squadron
75 Squadron
aircrew
Distinguished Flying Cross
Mosquito
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/PReptonB1801.1.jpg
b905c6ea618c945392e7963f17d5d221
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/AReptonB180306.2.mp3
262211d521d81a32c139676920347e53
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Repton, Betty
Betty Repton nee Jackson
B Repton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Betty Repton (b. 1922). She served as a stenographer in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Coningsby.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Repton, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EM: Just talk in a minute. Stop worrying.
DK: I’ll just, I’ll just introduce this. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre.
BR: Just interrupting. Have you —
DK: Don’t worry. Yeah. That’s ok. Don’t worry.
BR: Have you seen many elderly ladies like me?
DK: Yes. Yes. Three.
BR: Three.
DK: You’re my third.
BR: Oh.
DK: You’re my third. So, yes.
BR: And are they all with it?
DK: Oh, yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
BR: Oh yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
EM: Just like you.
DK: Now —
EM: Just keep quiet a minute.
DK: That’s ok.
EM: He’s just doing a bit of recording.
DK: Sorry.
EM: Just be quiet a minute. Yeah.
DK: So I’m interviewing, Betty Repton isn’t it?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Betty Repton, at her home, don’t worry about this, the 6th of March 2018. If I just, can I just move this over?
EM: Yeah. Do you want a maiden name?
DK: Yes. Could do.
EM: Jackson.
DK: Oh. So, that’s Betty Jackson [pause] That looks alright. Yeah.
EM: Ignore that.
DK: Ignore that. Pretend, pretend it’s not there. If I, if I lean over it’s just making sure it’s still working. So, so first of all can I ask you what you were doing immediately before the war?
BR: What was I doing?
EM: Before the war.
BR: I worked in a library.
DK: Ok.
BR: In Macclesfield. It was called a chain library and it was for the north west.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s all I did.
DK: Ok.
BR: Until the war broke out and it so happened that I was engaged to a gentleman and his parents bought him a shop.
DK: Right.
BR: And they asked me if I would leave and look after it for his twenty first birthday. And in that time he was called up for would it be the militia?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BR: I’m not quite sure.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To do training because he was called up in the Army.
DK: Right.
BR: And it so happened that I wanted to join the forces. A volunteer.
DK: Ok.
BR: And my brother was in the Navy and my other brother was in the Army so my mother said, ‘I’d like you to go in the WAAF. Then I’ve got one of you in each.’
DK: Each of the services.
BR: And I wrote to Eric, his name and told him I was going to join the forces. And he wrote back and said, “No girl of his was going in the forces.”
DK: Oh right.
BR: So that was the end of that. And so I just applied to join up and I went to Manchester to see a WAAF officer. And she gave me a test and I had to do handwriting.
DK: Right.
BR: And she said, ‘You’re a beautiful writer and you’ve a very good speaking voice.’
DK: Well, you still have.
BR: ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I’ll do, I want a job that, such as a telephonist.’
DK: Right.
BR: She said, ‘That would be ideal for you,’ and so I was put down to go on a course at Sheffield GPO.
DK: Right.
BR: To be a telephonist when they called me up. And, and then once I’d passed that I was just [pause] I’ve forgotten the word —
DK: Posted.
BR: Yes. To, well I was in the WAAF.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok.
BR: And I had to go to Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
BR: And get my training done there and then the place that I first went to was 16 MU at Stafford.
DK: A Maintenance Unit. 16 Maintenance Unit.
BR: Maintenance Unit there.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I was there and then gradually I went to various places.
DK: Right.
BR: And I ended up at a place called Winstanley Hall.
DK: Right.
BR: Near Wigan. And it was a private residence but it was very beautiful and the place that we had to travel each day was on the East Lancs’ Road and they called it RAF Blackbrook but it was underground.
DK: Oh right.
BR: And it was a switching centre.
DK: Yeah.
BR: For teleprinter operators.
DK: Right.
BR: But while I was at Stafford there were so many operators. Telephone operators.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That I never got a chance to get on the switchboard. There were so many.
DK: Yeah.
BR: So I used to sit there in the traffic office and if a message came through on the teleprinter we would get up and go and receive it and put your initials.
DK: Right.
BR: And I got so used to doing that that I thought I’d like to be a teleprinter operator. So I re-mustered and got a posting to Cranwell.
DK: Right.
BR: Where I did the teleprint. I couldn’t type at all. But everything worked out perfect.
DK: So the fact you couldn’t type —
BR: Yes.
DK: Wasn’t a problem.
BR: And so I got posted to this Winstanley Hall.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And, but during [pause]
DK: That’s ok.
BR: During this time my mother was taken ill.
DK: Right.
BR: And I had two sisters that had got children and I was the only single one. So I had to, to ask if I could be released to look after my mum which I did for three months. And in that time if she died within that time I was to be called up straightaway. And she died in the November and they called me back December. At the end of December. 1st of January 1944.
DK: Right.
BR: Because she died in 1943.
DK: Ok.
BR: And so I got posted to Scampton. That was the first posting after being released.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s it. Scampton it was.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it so happened that the Dambusters were operating there but they’d already been on the raid.
DK: Yes. Because that was —
BR: To the dams.
DK: That was 1943.
BR: So I was just one.
DK: Right.
BR: Of the WAAF, ordinary WAAF just doing a job at Scampton.
DK: And, and, and what was —
BR: And that’s —
DK: And what was your role at Scampton? Were you still on the teleprinters?
BR: What was that?
EM: Were you still a teleprinter operator?
BR: Yes.
EM: At Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I stayed to be a teleprinter operator all the time.
DK: Right.
BR: At Scampton. And then I got a posting to Syerston.
DK: Right.
BR: And from Syerston I got another posting. This was within two years of each to Coningsby.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s where I stayed until I was released from the services to go to, and get my discharge.
DK: Did, did you get to meet any of the aircrew at all?
BR: Did I?
EM: Tell, tell David while you were teleprinter operating at Scampton who, who came through the, who you handed the messages to.
BR: We handed them in. It was all to do with the flying.
DK: Right.
BR: And every time the kites took off there was a message. When they came back they was all debriefed and they put a message together and they called them a BCIR Report. Bomber Command Intelligence Report. So therefore you had to be in the section to type these messages that you plugged in to the stations around —
DK: Right.
BR: When they came back off of a raid. And they just, that was it. And it just, it was all the same.
DK: So you did this every time they went for, on a raid.
BR: Yes.
DK: And then when they came back?
BR: Yes. they went into debrief too, and I suppose the pilots told their own story because some came back and some didn’t. But they always sent a message whenever an aeroplane went off.
DK: Right.
BR: There was a message with the names of the pilot and the crew.
DK: Ok.
BR: To say they’d returned. Then they put this message together and it went to all the 5 Group.
DK: Right.
BR: Places.
DK: So eventually would, the messages would have got to headquarters here then.
BR: That was what?
EM: Where would the, would the messages have come to St Vincent’s and that? Where did the messages go? Just to the —
BR: I don’t know. I think St Vincent’s had something to do with the raid.
DK: Right. Ok. The planning.
BR: It was before I ever got. I didn’t get to the beginning of the Dambusters.
DK: No. No.
BR: To see them. It took place I think in May.
DK: Yeah. May ’43.
BR: And I didn’t get there ‘til December.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But then they, I think the Dambuster pilots and that were stationed at Petwood Hotel.
DK: That’s right. That’s correct. Yes.
BR: And I got married and I went to live at Woodhall Spa.
DK: Oh right. That’s a lovely village.
BR: And so of course I don’t know if you’ve seen the monument.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: Yeah. And I was there all the time it was being built.
DK: Oh right.
BR: So —
EM: Yeah, but —
BR: And —
EM: You’ve missed the bit about who you, you handed your bit of paper at Scampton to who did you hand your bit of paper to at Scampton?
BR: Oh, well —
EM: Guy Gibson.
BR: I just reported to the guardroom.
DK: Right. Ok.
BR: You know.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I just, I had to report.
DK: Right.
BR: To RAF Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And everything you did you had to sign in.
DK: Yeah.
BR: At the guardroom.
DK: Can you remember anybody you met there at Scampton?
BR: I met Guy Gibson.
DK: Ok.
BR: He used to walk past the window of the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: And go into the ops room. Now, the ops room was another room attached to the teleprinter off, but you wouldn’t have known that. But there was a window and if there was a message came through that had to be going to the ops —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You just knocked on the little window. It was wooden.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it was forced back.
DK: Right.
BR: And who should take the message but Guy Gibson. Because I’d seen him walk past.
DK: Yeah. But he didn’t speak to you then.
BR: No.
DK: No. Oh.
BR: No. No. You just handed the message and that was it. But I saw him pass and I think he’d got the dog and then it was killed.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I don’t know if it was killed in the time I was there.
DK: I think it would have been before.
BR: Which I think it probably was. And from that it was just routine. Every day the same. I just went on duty.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And off duty and that was it.
DK: Where did you used to go off duty? Was there anywhere you went?
BR: What was that, Elaine?
EM: When you were Scampton where did you live? Where did you, what did you used to do when you were off duty?
BR: We were billeted at Dunholme.
DK: Right. Yeah. I know.
BR: Across the road, down in to Dunholme village.
DK: I know.
BR: And there were Nissen huts.
DK: Right.
BR: And we stayed in those until I got a posting to Syerston. Then got to Syerston and we were in a block. I don’t know if it was G block.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I think they called it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And —
DK: Did you, did you get on well with your other WAAFs?
BR: Yes. Made some wonderful friends.
DK: Ok.
BR: And little things happened. I sent a BCIR report, Bomber Command Intelligence Report this particular day and it was very long and the flight sergeant in Scampton office said, ‘Betty, if you can send this report without making three mistakes you will get your corporal badges.’ And I said to him, ‘Flight, I don’t want promotion. I don’t like giving orders.’ But now, you see, oh I think I was stupid but I’d just been a country girl.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Lived in a village and I don’t like giving orders to other, to other WAAFs.
DK: Did, did you used to watch the aircraft take off?
BR: No.
DK: On the raids.
BR: No.
DK: No.
BR: No. I was either on duty, and when we weren’t on duty we were down at Dunholme.
DK: Right.
BR: That was the billet.
DK: So you never really saw the activity on the airfields then.
BR: No. So, I was trying to think of something that I did at 16 MU.
EM: She’s got some nice photographs.
BR: Oh, the first time, it was the first posting I had, and another WAAF and I were going into Stafford. So you had to go to the guard room and report and sign.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And the WAAF officer there, well it was corporal, her name was Corporal Blood. Which I shall never forget.
DK: What a great name.
BR: And she said to me, ‘And which bus did you drive?’ I said, ‘I beg your pardon, corporal?’ She said, ‘Which bus did you drive?’ And I was flabbergasted. And she whipped my hat off and she plonked it on straight and she said, ‘That is how you wear your hat.’ Not —
DK: Oh. Like that. Yeah.
BR: Not at an angle.
DK: Like a bus driver. Yeah.
BR: And so I always remember her name and what she said.
DK: Yeah.
EM: I wonder if she’s still about.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And then she said, ‘Get off.’
DK: Oh dear.
BR: And that was the first, I thought I’ve got to be careful.
DK: I’ll tell you what shall I just pause it there? Shall I? Shall I just stop. Thanks.
[recording paused]
DK: Ok. Carry on.
BR: When I was at Woodhall Spa a WAAF had bought a cloth a yard wide.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was plain. And she got people to sign it.
DK: Right.
BR: And she ran up to me for some reason and she said, ‘Betty, would you sign my cloth?’ So, I said, ‘I’d be delighted to,’ but it was my maiden name obviously and she embroidered my name on it and all the others that she asked.
DK: Right.
BR: The local reporter for the Horncastle News said could anybody, could they issue any information as to how that came about because the girl had lost it.
DK: Right.
BR: And it was found behind a cupboard at Coningsby. One of these metal containers that —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know further in. And they’d found the cloth at the back. So she never took it home.
DK: Do you know what year they found it?
BR: And funnily enough does that prove?
EM: Yeah. What it was.
BR: It was the girl’s.
DK: Oh, here we go. 1986?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 1986.
EM: And then they’ve lost it again.
DK: Oh.
BR: And so that —
DK: Oh no.
BR: I took that photograph of the girls and I phoned. Bill Skelton his name was and he said, I said —
EM: Horncastle News.
DK: Yeah.
BR: ‘I think I can help you with the cloth.’ He says, ‘Never.’ I said, ‘I can because my name’s on it.’ So he came to see me.
DK: Right. So —
BR: And it was put in the paper. Then a few years after.
DK: So you’re on that then.
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Here it is all about the cloth.
DK: Right.
EM: And they’ve lost the cloth again.
DK: So where was it last seen then? At Coningsby?
EM: Coningsby.
BR: So that’s Coningsby. My last station.
DK: Right.
BR: And there are the girls there. And the girl that did it was this one.
DK: Ok. Can you remember their name?
BR: That’s Wendy Taylor.
DK: Wendy Taylor.
BR: So, Mr Skelton that was, he wrote a bit about the paper and said they’d found —
DK: Right.
BR: But it disappeared again and a WAAF officer wrote the next part of it.
DK: Right.
BR: Is it there?
DK: There’s a new museum at Coningsby. I wonder —
EM: We’ve been.
DK: Oh right.
EM: We went a week last Monday.
DK: Ok.
EM: And she mentioned the cloth.
DK: And they’ve got no —
EM: No. They’ve lost, and they lost it and we mentioned it didn’t we?
BR: Yeah.
DK: What a shame.
EM: And I think her name was Donna who’s there now. And she’s going to see if she can find it. But that is, that’s history.
DK: Oh sure. Yeah.
EM: And it’s a fabulous story.
DK: Yeah.
EM: They found in 1986.
DK: ’86. And lost it again.
EM: But she’s going to try to find it again. Probably through social media. You know, this is how you’re going to have to get it out there.
DK: Well, what I can do is if I, if you can send me a copy of this I can put it on the IBCC’s Facebook page.
EM: Yeah.
DK: And see if that brings out any information.
EM: Well, the thing for me to do then —
DK: Yeah.
EM: If I scanned that and that.
DK: Scanned that and that.
BR: That’s the next letter —
EM: There look.
BR: That came.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah. I’m going to scan these for David and send them to him.
DK: Right.
EM: And he’s going to see whether they can find the cloth or any of the people.
DK: Yeah. We can put an appeal out there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: On the Facebook pages.
BR: There were about the second time they contacted me for that one.
EM: Yeah.
BR: For the cloth.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was a WAAF officer and that. Is there a write up about it?
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see what we can do.
BR: And —
DK: I can get both the IBCC to look into it on their Facebook page and also the Coningsby Aviation Museum that’s recently opened. Or the Historical Centre or whatever it’s called.
EM: Yeah. But as I say we were there.
DK: Yeah.
EM: And they just seemed totally aghast that anyone and I said well this had been going on and as I say it’s 1944/46 look.
DK: So it was lost between the late 40s and about eighty —
EM: ’86. Found in ’86 and lost again.
DK: Oh dear.
BR: What’s the date of that? That one.
EM: It’s 1986.
BR: Yeah. Yes, so —
EM: But I’ll do that.
BR: I don’t think she ever got it, but its disappeared and it isn’t in the museum.
DK: Well, we —
BR: And that’s what they wanted.
DK: We’ll have to see what we can do.
BR: And they asked me on Monday if I would take the cloth to show them but we never got the chance.
DK: Right. Well, what I can do is I can send, if you email me all that I can send that to them. Both Coningsby and —
EM: Yeah.
DK: IBCC and they can put out an appeal for it then.
EM: Yeah. Because the other thing I don’t know if you’ve noticed somebody’s written on there Dinah Shaw.
DK: Right.
EM: And there’s a singer called Dinah Shaw.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EM: And they don’t, is that right? Dinah Shaw. Isn’t there a singer?
BR: Dinah Shaw.
EM: Dinah Shaw. Dinah Shaw. And they’re not sure if it was the Dinah Shaw who was the singer who put her name on that cloth.
BR: Well, it probably was but I don’t know.
DK: Right. Right.
EM: And she’s quite a famous —
DK: Yeah.
EM: Person. Which is why they’ve written that there look.
DK: Yeah. So whereabouts is your mother’s name?
EM: Mum’s on this —
BR: I don’t know why. I don’t know why.
EM: Betty Jackson.
DK: Oh, Betty Jackson. There you go.
BR: Wendy came to me and there’s my name on there.
EM: Yeah. Your name’s there look. On the bottom.
BR: Yeah. E Jackson.
EM: Betty. No, Betty Jackson.
BR: I put Betty. Yeah.
EM: Yeah. But you see there Douglas Craig, all the names are quite —
DK: Quite clear aren’t they?
EM: Quite clear aren’t they? I mean I don’t know what they’d be like —
BR: And there’s lots of girls in there from other stations that I’ve kept at the back.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And put the names under.
DK: Well, it would be good if you could get all the names to the faces.
BR: Yeah.
EM: What do you want me to do then? Get the names?
DK: If you get the names to the faces on there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: I can either come back and scan these myself if you like.
EM: Well, it’s up to you.
DK: Or scan them.
EM: I can scan them at work and send them from work.
DK: We just need them at six hundred BPI.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Six hundred. Or DPI is it? Six hundred DPI.
EM: Dots per inch.
DK: Dots per inch.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Six hundred DPI. If you can do that you can then just email them to me.
EM: Right. What I’ll do then I’ll get her to name, you see. I mean again they’re all here look.
DK: They were. Yeah. I see you’ve got a missing one there.
BR: Yeah. What’s that one?
DK: That’s —
EM: Peggy. Oh, Peggy Hassel. I don’t know where she’s gone.
BR: Yes.
DK: She’s [unclear]
EM: Oh, she’s there mum.
DK: [unclear]
BR: Oh yes. She’s there. Peggy Hassel.
EM: But they’re fabulous photographs aren’t they?
DK: They are aren’t they?
EM: I don’t know what that is.
BR: It was a job to get your photograph.
EM: What’s that? Who did that?
BR: Percy Bexton. Doesn’t it say on there?
EM: Yeah. And who was Percy Bexton, 1946?
BR: Yes. He was at Scampton and he was in the office. He says, ‘I’ll give you something to remind you, Betty of me and that’s what he did for me.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yeah.
EM: They’re great, aren’t they?
BR: And that’s how I looked.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: When I got there.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah.
BR: That’s the one that’s enlarged there and —
EM: They’re good though aren’t they?
DK: So that’s Winstanley Hall in the background was it?
EM: That’s Winstanley Hall, isn’t it?
BR: Yes. That’s Winstanley Hall. And why I’m sitting amongst the daffodil apparently every year when the daffodils came out they were picked and given and sold to the hospital in Wigan.
DK: Ok. Right.
BR: And that’s the reason I’m sitting there with that in the background.
DK: I know the IBCC would love those photos.
BR: We were in Nissen huts.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That’s where we are in slacks and that.
EM: Yeah.
BR: It was a day off —
EM: Well, I’ll go through with you.
BR: Yeah.
EM: And make notes and then if I can scan everything.
BR: Yeah.
DK: And send to you.
DK: And send them to me.
EM: And you can choose.
DK: And I can send them on.
EM: What you want and don’t want, can’t you?
DK: Particularly the cuttings and we’ll see if we can —
EM: Yeah.
DK: Put the message out there about the lost cloth.
EM: But from Scampton then you went to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: No. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Right.
BR: But it was just, I think some of the Dambusters were posted there but I wouldn’t be certain.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I never bothered about them. We never bothered about them. We were just WAAFs going on duty. Then we, that was it.
DK: So you didn’t mix with the men much then. Mix with a group.
BR: Well, we did because there was always a dance on the camp.
DK: Right.
BR: And the odd one would come to it but you’d just, they’d just come up and say, ‘Come on,’ you know, ‘I’ll have this dance with you.’ And you didn’t, it never made everything.
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know. They were just, when we were off duty we went to the dance. It was on every week. It wasn’t anything special and I wasn’t a dancer.
DK: Yeah. So how, so you left in 1946.
BR: 19 —
DK: ‘46. Yeah.
EM: You left. When did you go to Coningsby then? In 1945.
DK: ’45.
BR: Yes.
EM: Why? Did you get posted to Coningsby?
BR: Yes. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Yeah.
BR: From Syerston to Coningsby.
EM: Right.
BR: In 1945.
EM: Right. And so you were a teleprinter operator.
BR: And I was a teleprinter operator.
EM: At Coningsby.
BR: All the time. Yeah.
EM: But they, where did you live in Coningsby? You were in the Nissen huts in Pilgrim Square.
BR: We were. That’s right. That’s where those pictures were taken.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Outside with that cloth.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was Coningsby.
DK: So what, what was it like in a Nissen hut? Was it a bit cold?
BR: You see. I wish I could tell what he said.
EM: What was it like living in the Nissen huts?
BR: Well, it was alright because it was really, you slept in them and then you was going on duty and then when you come off duty if you were free we’d go in to Lincoln. To the YMCA. But Lincoln was not, it wasn’t a long way to Lincoln from Scampton.
EM: Oh, Scampton. We’re back at Scampton now.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: But that’s what you did. And if not we went to the Nissen huts and —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Didn’t do anything there. We just used to sit around the fire and talk.
EM: What about when you were Coningsby? Where did you go when you were at Coningsby?
BR: Coningsby. Well, we were stationed at Pilgrim Square.
EM: Yeah.
BR: In the Nissen huts.
EM: Yeah.
BR: And well I shouldn’t say this it’s where my husband, where I met my husband. And if you want to know that story it’s lovely.
DK: Oh, well go on then. If you’re happy to tell it. What, what was your husband doing?
BR: He was a GPO engineer.
DK: Right.
BR: And he was, he wasn’t in the forces. What was it?
EM: Civil service wasn’t he?
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Reserved Occupation.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BR: His area was Woodhall Spa, Horncastle, Digby RAF, Coningsby RAF. Everything to do with —
DK: Right.
BR: And he was at Blankney Hall when it burned down. And Stan came to mend the teleprinter I was on.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And also the telephone exchange was just there adjoining the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: So he went to mend the fault on the switchboard, came off and went to the room which was the GPO room to wash his hands. And he came back with his hands wet through and I said, ‘Here you are. Dry them on my towel. I’m going on leave for the weekend.’ So that was it. Off he went. About a quarter of an hour later the telephone rang and a voice said, ‘When did you say I was going to take you out?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think you’ve had a bit of bad luck. I’m going on a forty eight hour pass.’ And he asked the girls in this, what he knew, when I was coming back. And they said, ‘She’ll be back in Monday night. And she’s got to be in by 23.59.’ And he sat and waited for me at Coningsby Station for, to watch me get off the train. And there he sat in his little Austin 7. And he said, and I could have dropped dead, and he came and opened the door and he said, ‘I’ve come to pick you up.’ He said, ‘There’s a good film on at Boston. Would you like to go and see it with me?’ He said, ‘We’ll get you back for midnight.’ So off we went to Boston to see this lovely film.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Which was?
BR: Eh?
EM: What was the film?
BR: Oh dear.
EM: I know what the film was.
BR: What was it?
EM: “State Fair.”
BR: “State Fair.” That’s it. And that was it. And from then on when he came to the camp we just kept going out together and —
DK: So, so it was a good thing you were in the WAAFs then. Because of that you met your husband.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: You met, you met dad through being in the WAAF and posted to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yes. That was the last place.
EM: That’s why she lived in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right.
EM: Because he lived at Woodhall Spa.
BR: And in my off duty Stan would pick me up. He’d be going out to one of the villages like South Kyme.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To a little telephone exchange and I’d go with him.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But if we saw another PO van he used to say, ‘Duck down,’ because —
DK: You shouldn’t have been there.
BR: I shouldn’t have been in it. But that’s what we did all the time.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I think let’s wrap up here.
BR: And we got married.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And went to live in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right, then. Can I, can I just ask you finally how do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF? How do you look back on it now?
BR: What was that?
EM: How do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF?
BR: Yes. I loved every minute of it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was so interesting and it was a routine. And —
EM: But you enjoyed it didn’t you?
BR: Yes. I did.
EM: And you met some lovely people.
BR: Yes. And they were going to have a Ruhr tour.
DK: Right.
BR: That was to see the damage.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BR: And every so often the aircraft, the Lanc —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Flew. This was just after the war. Oh, I don’t know if the war was on and you could put your name down for a Ruhr Tour.
DK: Right.
BR: And so I put my name down but I never got on the Ruhr Tour because I got demobbed in April ’41.
DK: So you never flew then all the time.
BR: No.
DK: When you were a WAAF.
BR: No.
EM: She never got to.
BR: That would have been the icing.
DK: I should say.
BR: And if I hadn’t met Stan, and we were getting married I would put my name down for, was it Singapore?
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was going to stay in the WAAF.
DK: Right.
BR: And go off to Singapore. But it didn’t happen.
DK: It didn’t happen. No. Ok.
BR: And —
DK: Sorry, go on
BR: So that’s it.
DK: Ok, that’s great. I’ll stop it.
BR: There’s lots of little things that happened that, you know.
EM: What?
DK: Yeah.
BR: The one that sticks in my mind. Oh, when I was on the parade ground the first night being a volunteer there was a lot of girls turned up but by morning a lot of girls had gone back home because they could.
DK: Right.
BR: So of course we had to stay because they were going to issue uniform and the WAAF officer went around with a corporal I think to see if your hair was off your collar. And mine as you can see was quite curly and she pulled it out of, down on to my collar to see if it was going to touch my collar and she said, ‘Barber’s shop,’ to this corporal. And I said, ‘What does that mean?’ Well, I could. I couldn’t turn around and say, ‘Why am I going there?’ And so she said, ‘You’ll have your hair cut to a certain length.’ And I went to the barber’s shop and there was a young lad in it, and he was going to cut my hair and I said, ‘You’re not doing that.’ He said, ‘I’ve got to cut some of it off.’ So I told him how much he could take off which he did. And from then on I lost the curls that I did.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And got, put it in a roll. You put it in a roll and tucked it in, you know. And that was alright.
DK: So long as it was off your collar.
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To get it off my collar.
DK: Your collar. Yeah.
BR: And then of course I go first time out the corporal plonked my hat on.
DK: Can’t win.
BR: And funny how I remember her name. Corporal Blood.
EM: It’s good though, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EM: Ok.
DK: Ok. Well we’ll stop it there. Thanks. Thanks very much for that.
[recording paused]
That was David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Betty Repton nee Jackson at her home [buzz] on the 9th of March 2018. Also there was her daughter Elaine Mablethorpe. That’s Elaine Mablethorpe. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Betty Repton
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AReptonB180306, PReptonB1801
Format
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00:37:08 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Description
An account of the resource
Betty (nee Jackson) worked in a library in Macclesfield before the war. When the war broke out, she went to Manchester to volunteer for the Air Force and trained as a telephonist. She did a course at Sheffield General Post Office before being posted to RAF Bridgnorth for training and then to 16 Maintenance Unit at RAF Stafford. Following training as a Teleprinter Operator at RAF Blackbrook she re-mustered and was posted to RAF Cranwell. She was released for three months to look after her ailing mother and was called back to the RAF in December 1944, being posted to RAF Scampton and later to RAF Syerston and then RAF Coningsby, where she stayed until being demobbed. When at RAF Scampton she was billeted in Nissen huts at RAF Dunholme Lodge. She handled Bomber Command intelligence report messages whenever a crew returned and met Guy Gibson. Betty met her husband Stan, a civilian General Post Office engineer, when being stationed at RAF Coningsby. Betty remembered a RAF officer who had a cloth embroidered with names of staff, but it had since been lost. When Betty and Stan married, they lived at RAF Woodhall Spa. Betty said she had loved every minute of her time in the RAF.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-12
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
5 Group
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
Nissen hut
RAF Blackbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Scampton
RAF Stafford
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1113/11603/PSaunstonFR1701.1.jpg
ca99bc450ba7136ba5c937a1abc3cc8f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1113/11603/ASaunstonFR170522.2.mp3
a4ce3e36837e8676e9a26f29cb7f3ed4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunston, Frank
Frank R Saunston
F R Saunston
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Stanston (b. 1925). He helped to pack supplies for Operation Manna.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Saunston, FR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre talking to Frank Staunton at his home on the 22nd of May. That’s ok.
US: I’ll show you these afterwards.
DK: Yeah, I can have a look now, that’s ok. I’ve got the recording going so, I’ll just leave that there. Alright, oh, ok. So, that’s from the Dutch, isn’t it?
US: Yeah.
DK: That’s the Ambassador of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
US: Yes
DK: That’s a contribution to Manna and then Operation Manna there. So, that’s the Manna Association, isn’t it?
US: Yes. It has something to do with Lincoln?
DK: Yes, oh yes, yes, all aspects of Bomber Command, the groundcrews,
US: Yes
DK: The bombing campaign and the Operation Manna and that sort of thing
US: Oh, just I didn’t realise the date was on it till just now.
DK: Yeah
US: The 20th of April to the 8th of May 1945.
DK: [unclear], isn’t it?
US: Yeah, yeah and that came with
DK: The medal as well. Ok.
US: Yes, and he got the medal and he had to wear that one [unclear] on parade
DK: Right, ok.
US: Yeah, yeah.
FS: Fifty years afterwards
DK: Better, better late than never
FS: Pardon?
DK: Better late than never.
US: Yes was quite [unclear] in that case
DK: Lovely, lovely [unclear] medal, isn’t it?
US: Yeah, that is lovely.
DK: Yeah
US: [unclear]
FS: [unclear] now, that’s the only one in 149 Squadron and 662 cause anybody’s got one
DK: Really?
FS: Yeah, cause I’ve been on the Mildenhall register
DK: Right
FS: And the man at the Mildenhall register didn’t know anything about it and I told him what it was for and he said, well, nobody else has got one
DK: Ah, right. Can I just ask, to start with, what were you doing immediately before the war?
FS: Sorry?
DK: What were you doing immediately before the war?
FS: I’ll start from the beginning.
DK: Yes, sure, please, yes
FS: When I left school, I left school in August 1939 and I had various jobs before I got a job as a garden assistant at [unclear] and while I was there the local ATC started on the 14th of May 1941 I joined the local squadron 1406 [unclear] Holbeach when it was formed I was interested in going into the Air Force and so I volunteered to join the RAF in 1942 and I went and had a medical and passed the medical and they said they would call me when they needed me and so I had to wait until I think it was about November 1943 when they said, we’ll call you up on and sent me a date of the 12th of January 1944 and so I joined the RAF and I went down to ACRC in London and did all the kitting and all the main and drilling and that sort of thing but because I was a local boy and I didn’t go to grammar school, my education wasn’t quite the standard that was required, so they sent me on a training course at Liverpool to 19, number 19 PACT it was called, Pre Air Crew Training Course where we spent six months in the Liverpool College of Commerce and at Liverpool [unclear] Street Technical College and together with the training, initial training, drilling and all that sort of thing, that lasted six months. After six months we went back down to St John’s Wood where we was reassessed, well, I was down to pilot, navigator, bomb aimer but they, the actual medical side to do with the pilot side of it was that my legs weren’t long enough. So, because, they said my legs weren’t long enough and they didn’t want any navigators and they got no call for bomb aimers, would I take a second job and as and because I had a very good aptitude I was selected to become an air gunner but they didn’t want any air gunners, so they sent us on a course, training course down at Babbacombe, Paignton and Torquay and after we’ve been down there for three months they said, well, they couldn’t really feed, they couldn’t really afford to feed us, they needed people in other jobs, would we take another job? So, we said, yeah, well, what are they? And they said, well, you can go clerk GD, general duties or you can become a transport driver because we are short of vehicle drivers so I said, I wanna go for that one , cause I thought, I might as well ride the [unclear] [laughs]. Anyway we went on the course down at Melksham in Wiltshire and it lasted eight weeks and in eight weeks’ time, you had to learn to drive all the vehicles that the RAF had and my last job was to drive the Queen Mary which was sixty some odd foot long. I left there and was posted to Peplow in Shropshire where we used to start the tractors for the WAAFs in the morning cause Peplow at that time was training glider pilots for Arnhem and D-Day and because we were doing this course, we stayed with them until that course ended and when it ended they transferred me down to Methwold in Norfolk and that was on Bomber Command where 149 and 622 Squadron were based and it was while I was there, I had the job of forklift driver in the bomb dump and we used to load the bombs onto the trolleys and we used to load the trolleys in a train to take round to the aircraft to bomb up and a Lancaster bomber squadron [unclear] when it comes to feeding them [unclear] about twenty two bombs of some kind or canisters of some kind or one big bomb which was one odd thing but anyway we were doing that and one day we had a senior officer coming down to the squadron and a fortnight later we had this thing come through that we, apparently we’re going to send food to people who were starving in Holland called Operation Manna and it was on that job that I did actually did load and did suggest some ways of the stuff landing on the ground because you wrap a sack of flour in its own right, you drop a sack of flour and it hits the ground, it bursts, it throws it out [unclear] fan shape and it’s no more good to anybody so that was decided how was we going to drop it and so we had this talk about it and we said, well, if you put that bag in a bigger bag, a clothing woven one, the bigger bag would catch the contents and so we put this ordinary sack of flour, a standard sack of flour, it’s about sixteen stone I think or fourteen stone into a railway sack as we call them which were big and used to carry corn on the railway and stick them up and that and we dropped, at the second drop we did with that it did burst open but the contents inside was all in, you know, thrown about and they found that it would be difficult to salvage all the contents without losing all [unclear] in the fabric material so we said, what else can we do? So, I said, well, the best thing I can think of is if you get that bag of flour in a railway sack which is about twice its size and then you put it in the bigger one which is bigger still which the farmers locally called [unclear] bags because [unclear] from the local factory was sent out to the farms in these huge sacks so if you put it in that one and you stitch it up in that one and you roll it up in that one when it came down the weight of the flour at the front would cause the thing to open up and the back end would flap and because it’s flapping, it retarded the fall and we tried that and it worked.
DK: It worked.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And these were being dropped out the Lancasters, were they?
FS: Pardon?
DK: They were being dropped out of Lancasters.
FS: Lancasters, Stirlings as well.
DK: Stirlings as well.
FS: Yeah
DK: Right.
FS: But they dropped them out the Lancasters and then the other thing was they always [unclear] get them in the Lancaster so someone came up on this big thing, I don’t know who made them but they came to us in a lorry load and they called them panniers
DK: Yeah
FS: A pannier would fix into the bomb bay, either side, yeah, and then you could shut the doors and that was all enclosed and so that was decided on, so we did two drops for panniers and that was quite successful. What I wouldn’t say is to drop things at two hundred and plus miles an hour you don’t get the results you think you gonna get, because a large can of corned beef dropped at two hundred miles an hour on the airfield [unclear], it would go in the ground as a big can of corned beef and go down about two foot in the ground because it was [unclear], it would come up on top and when it come on [unclear], it was fat as your book. Absolutely but it [unclear] burst the can
DK: Alright.
FS: No, so they decided it wouldn’t matter which way it dropped, it would still be usable.
DK: The contents were still ok?
FS: Yes, inside, yes. And that what I had and then when I came out the RAF, I mean, finished me course as an air gunner, I mean, done the jobs at Methwold and at the [unclear] base, I went to, went to the, finalized me course and I finished up as an air gunner on Sunderland flying boats.
DK: Alright.
FS: Yeah. So that’s my life story.
DK: Do you know which squadron you were with, with the Sunderlands?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Do you know which squadron it was with the Sunderlands?
FS: Scotland?
DK: The Sunderlands.
FS: Yes
DK: At which squadron?
FS: I wasn’t with the squadron.
DK: Ah, right, ok.
FS: I was with a ferry unit
DK: Ferry unit, right, ok.
FS: Yeah. I was, I went to, squadron, [unclear] RAF [unclear] in Scotland
DK: Right
FS: Or [unclear] if you like and we were based on a distillery
DK: Oh right [laughs]
FS: Yes. Very nice,
DK: Very nice
FS: Anyway, I did, I joined the course a crew and there was ten of us in a crew and we did [unclear] because by that time the war had finished and
DK: The war had ended, right. So you
FS: There was still [unclear] submarines still out there even then but we used to do patrol out over the Atlantic at places like Rockpool, I went to Iceland, went to [unclear] in the Shetlands, places like that, while I was there and then when we came back we were going to go to Singapore and the crew had slept in our billet with us two days before they took off and went and we were due to go the next day down to [unclear] to get equipped for the temperature, you know, shorts and all that sort of thing and we were going off in to Singapore but the crew that went down the day before were taking off and we were taking off at about quarter past two in the morning and the crew that went down the day before they took off and on the takeoff they lost an engine and they were fully loaded and you got two thousand four hundred and forty eight gallons of fuel on board and they lost an engine and so they told them to climb up as well as they could and on the way up they lost another engine and they got up to about four to five thousand feet and they told him to jettison this fuel and turn in a certain direction but unfortunately the people who were telling them about what to do didn’t realize that there was a two way wind, at the height that they were the wind was blowing in one direction and at a lower level it was blowing in the other direction and so what happened? They told them they had to turn and when they turned they came back in and they came back in to the vapor cloud and it blew up in mid-air completely, nothing left of it, yeah and so our trip, we were going down the [unclear] and we were on the fly path taking off when it was withdrawn.
DK: Alright.
FS: And it was withdrawn,
US: [unclear] thirsty.
FS: And it was
DK: I can stop there for a minute. Yep, there we go,
FS: Anyway, we got our, our trip was aborted and on the station for just over two weeks and they came up with to report they caught us that morning and I went along and they said, now, you aren’t going to Singapore, he said, because you have knowledge of agriculture, of food growing, that job is more important than you becoming an air gunner on a course in Singapore so he said, because it’s paying so much money to America for the food we need to grow our own where we can, so you can go back into agriculture to provide food so they sent me as on class B2 as a reserve and I stayed on that until it was abandoned and I came back home and the family had moved from where we used to live to Sutton St James, father had got us from [unclear] at Sutton St James and so at that point I got a job working for my father on his four acre holding and that was my life.
DK: You had a story about a V1. Yeah, there was a story about a V1?
FS: Oh yeah
DK: Yeah, so could you tell us that story?
FS: When I was back in August having finished a course at Liverpool, we were stationed or billeted in Viceroy Court which is just off the edge of Regent’s Park, very [unclear] block of flats but we did only use the bottom two floors to sleep and it was [unclear] of us in one room with an opening of eighteen inches by nine as the only means of air in the room, there were no doors on, all the doors had been taken out and we’d been having our usual daily exercises in the park, Regent’s Park across the way and we came back in from there and get to change back from PT gear into ordinary dress and we did that on the top floor and cause at that time the air raid warning went all clear at eight o’clock in the morning and at one minute past it went warning again and the doodlebugs started coming over after eight o’clock and we were there getting changed from PT gear into ordinary dress and we heard one coming so we went down on the balcony outside and funnily enough after a few seconds its engine stopped and we knew that when the engine stopped it was about to come down somewhere and there it was, coming through the clouds, straight through our block of flats.
DK: Did you actually see it, coming down?
FS: Oh yeah
DK: Yes, yes
FS: Coming straight for us, ah, well, we all went mad, we, I got down two flights of stairs in the toilet, there’s no doors on the toilet and it was no water in the toilet but I got flat on me chest in the toilet and got one he had covered up but I didn’t get me right here covered and then it went off and then I really funny things cause you got two thousand pounds of TNT going off, makes quite a bang and that was that, anyway we finally got down and they went, now what happened and so apparently this doodlebug coming down instead of coming directly at us as it was, it turned and it ran into the Canal Bank, where the Grand Union Canal is at that point and it ran into the bank outside [unclear] which he lived and it exploded but all the blast went upwards into the air and so the damage to our block of flats wasn’t all that bad, you could put your arms through the wall and shake with the people in the next room but that was apparently because it was a single frame building and it’s only the solid part
DK: [unclear], yeah
FS: That was fractured, yeah and then they sent us down, they sent us up the road to check on the people because mainly all the people in those flats were either relatives of or families of people, forces people working in London
DK: Right, ok.
FS: And so they sent us down to the one that was nearest to where the thing fell and to go and have a look at it was unusual really because we went inside and there was, we met a man in the hall way and he said where did they go? And I said, where did who go? He said, them gang, that gang of blokes, I said, what gang of blokes? He said, well, they come in here and then they [unclear] a big bang, he said, it was, he said, and somebody’s been pinched our wardrobe, I said, what? He said, somebody’s pinched our wardrobe, I said, no, I don’t think so, anyway we arrived, he took us up to where it was and he said, it stood there, against the wall and it’s not here anymore, that gang of blokes took it, I said, I didn’t see any gang of blokes, anyway he was quite, quite confused, quite think about it when a knock came on the door and a woman from two, not the next flat to his but the next flat, she came and she said, I don’t want that! I said, you don’t want what? She said, I don’t want that wardrobe in my house, it’s not my kind of furniture and I said what wardrobe? She said, well, them blokes came and they put a wardrobe against my wall. So, what he meant was the [unclear] of the building must have opened up and the wardrobe went through two rooms and rested against the wall.
DK: Yeah, so it crashed down.
FS: Yeah
DK: So, no men never actually stole it then?
FS: Pardon?
DK: No men actually stole it.
FS: There wasn’t anybody there.
DK: No, it’d gone through the
FS: It’d gone through
DK: Floors. Yeah, strange.
FS: Yeah. So, the whole of the building must have opened up and shut up again. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Strange.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And can I just confirm, whereabouts in London was this?
FS: It’s on the edge of Regent’s Park
DK: On the edge of Regent’s Park, ok.
FS: I’m not sure what road, not sure what road is in. If I got a map
DK: That’s ok, in Regent’s Park it’s ok. Know roughly where it was
FS: Pardon?
DK: That’s ok, Regent’s Park, I know where that is.
FS: Yeah, I can show you exactly where it is. I got a map of London.
DK: Yeah. That’s ok. I got an idea in my head where the canal is.
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. Can I just ask, just going back to your time working in the bomb dumps
FS: Yeah
DK: Did you used to actually load the bombs into the aircraft?
FS: I only loaded them onto the trolley.
DK: Onto the trolleys.
FS: But I loaded out to load the food into the aircraft.
DK: The food into the aircraft
FS: Yeah
DK: So, you had a tractor then, was it?
FS: A forklift
DK: Forklift, and you loaded them down
FS: It was electric
DK: Right
FS: Forklift
DK: Yeah
FS: Didn’t have an engine, is an electric one
DK: Right
FS: He used to plug it in, charge it up overnight if you weren’t using it or when between times, when you got so long between before you load in more stuff
DK: And then, the trollies then went out to the aircraft
FS: As a bomb train, we called it,
DK: Bomb train, yeah
FS: Yeah, cause one lady took my bomb train one night and she had a John Brown, a, yeah John
DK: A tractor, a John Brown tractor
FS: Yeah, she had a John Brown tractor and they were quite big things, quite powerful and they were quite fast if they wanted and she decided to take my bomb train in a hurry and she overturned it and she overturned it on the runway and the bombs came off the trolleys
DK: Right
FS: And then there was a big discussion as to what they were going to do with them and they said, well, the only thing you can do with them is go drop them in the sea and the disposal ground
DK: Right. So, they couldn’t be reused again.
FS: There’s delayed action
DK: Right, ok.
FS: Delayed action bombs and because they had fell off the trolleys, they started the action working, which cut the time down as to about three to four hours
DK: So you had three to four hours to dispose of them.
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
FS: Anyway, they had to call the crews out of bed, they were gonna take them on a trip the next day and load them all up on the aircraft which I did several of them on the aircraft and they flew them off to the dropping zone in the North Sea, it’s just off Dogger Bank somewhere and as the aircraft came back and landed, you could hear the bombs who went off in land and there a thousand pound bombs and they’re quite [unclear] yeah
DK: So, were quite a few of the tractor drivers women then?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Were quite a few of the tractor drivers women?
FS: OH, Quite a lot of them were
DK: Yeah
FS: Quite a lot of them
DK: She wasn’t hurt then, was she, when she rolled it?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Was she hurt when they rolled it? Was she hurt?
FS: She had trapped [unclear] it turned over.
DK: Just the bomb trolley?
FS: Just the bomb trolley.
DK: Right, ok. She was ok then?
FS: Started from the back and the [unclear] went up, yeah.
DK: So she was ok.
FS: Pardon? She was ok
DK: She was ok.
FS: She was ok.
DK: Can you recall what types of bombs you used to pick up?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Can you recall which types of bombs, the types of bombs that you, you picked up with the trolley?
FS: Types?
DK: Types, yeah.
FS: Well, you see, the means of dropping bombs is [unclear] for years and the types of bombs we were dropping were thousand pounders, the American one was the [unclear] on with the top, keep some of them cause they were known to explode and they contained Torpex which is the same stuff as they put in torpedoes and it makes a big bang and it does a lot of damage, we load probably twenty two, twenty one or twenty two of them on an aircraft and that was allowed, they used to take a thousand pound bombs
DK: So, it’s about twenty-one, twenty-two thousand pound bombs
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And were there any bigger bombs you
FS: Bigger ones? Oh, we had four thousand pounders which were [unclear] three section, two section canister at the front end is like a big barrel and the back end was empty and it was nose and tail fuse and three fuses in the nose and three in the tail which unwound when they left the aircraft the safety pin pulled out the fusing thing unwound and fell away and that let the fuse ignite and go to the front and when it hit the ground it went off [unclear] you had the two section one with the tail and you had the three section one
DK: So, they would have been eight thousand pounds and twelve thousand pounds
FS: That’s right, yeah
DK: Right, yeah
FS: And they had these special ones which had dropped on the submarine pens at Brest, but we never handled them, they were done by a couple of chaps with a huge forklift thing that could carry them cause we couldn’t carry them, they were too heavy for us
DK: And were many of the loads incendiary bombs as well?
FS: Incendiary?
DK: Yeah
FS: OH, yeah, yeah [laughs]. You wouldn’t believe it, seven thousand or eight, would ye? The [unclear] the ordinary stick incendiary bombs, there was ninety of those in a canister
DK: Right
FS: They came to us in boxes, right, and we had a canister carrier which took four of those
DK: Right, so that’s four times ninety
FS: Four times ninety
DK: Right
FS: And you only did with those, got a crowbar very carefully took the lid off the box and then you put the fuse in back over and you did all that with them upright and then they took them out [unclear] over come in the aircraft, you could have twenty of those or twenty four, twenty one of those at a time, we reckoned about seven thousand at that time of Dresden and Cologne where we sent a lot of fire bombs and the next after they come up with a load of high explosive and so on and that turned the course of that two weeks we unloaded or offloaded a T3 hangar which is about probably four hundred foot long or twenty seven line, we emptied it in a fortnight
DK: All full of incendiaries?
FS: All incendiaries. Yeah. And the bigger canisters of incendiaries was worked a different way, they were shaped like a bomb and had a copper nose to them and the copper nose had four nozzles facing outwards and when it hit the ground, it exploded but it didn’t explode and blow itself to pieces, but it started off as a fire from these nozzles, sort of high pressured gas burning and they would drop on the ground unless they lay flat on the ground they would turn themselves upright and set fire to everything around them but this was like [unclear] settling well flame sort of thing and there were some which [unclear] and they did quite [unclear] canisters and fused them up yeah.
DK: So, how long would it take to load up a whole squadron of aircraft?
FS: Pardon?
DK: How long would it take
FS: About a day
DK: About a day.
FS: Yeah
DK: So, you’d be out there early morning right through the day
FS: After [unclear]
DK: Yeah [unclear], they took off
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
FS: Yeah.
DK: So, it’s a day’s work to load up a whole squadron.
FS: Pardon?
DK: A day’s work to load up a whole squadron.
FS: It [unclear] just a day, you do it again tomorrow
DK: Yeah
FS: Every day the same.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
FS: I think in some cases I only had about three hours sleep at night, probably only about three hours sleep at night.
DK: So, I think that’s very interesting information there, thanks very much for your time. I was just going to ask, what do you think now about your time in the RAF?
FS: What do I think about it?
DK: What do you think about it now.
FS: I wish I’d stayed there. I wish I’d stayed there actually, but I didn’t have that choice more or less, I always say they thought that my job as food production was better serving the country than my career in the RAF was
DK: Yeah. So, you had no choice, you had to come out
FS: I had to, yeah, yeah, I had to come out because I had knowledge of food production, that was the answer
DK: Very, food is very important though, food is very important
FS: Oh yeah, well, when you work out how much they were paying for a boat load of food for America, you can understand why they wanted to stop him [unclear] it and reround it when they could and as I say, I think they most probably, most probably it was a good thing for the country and they wouldn’t be feeding me, would they? I was feeding them.
DK: OK then, I will stop there but thanks very much for that, that’s more or less, that’s, thanks very much for your time. I’ll stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frank Saunston
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaunstonFR170522, PSaunstonFR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:40:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Saunston joined the ATC in 1941 and then the RAF in 1942. He worked as a transport driver at RAF Peplow and then as a forklift driver at RAF Methwold on the bomb dump. Describes his role and his duties and gives details regarding the bombs used. He took part in Operation Manna and tells of how the food was packed and dropped over Holland. Finished up as an air gunner on Sunderland flying boats. Witnessed a V1 dropping on the block of flats where he was stationed near Regent’s Park in London and gives a detailed account of the event. Remembers an aircraft accident when he was posted to Scotland. Tells of how he wanted to stay longer in the RAF but was told to go back to work in food production, where his knowledge of agriculture would have been more useful.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
149 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing up
ground personnel
incendiary device
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Methwold
RAF Peplow
service vehicle
Sunderland
tractor
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1126/11618/PSleafordK1701.2.jpg
13f9e909ede91b791863b5b18293fd20
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1126/11618/ASleafordK170412.1.mp3
84c8880848e4dfa2236ec4d64815dd4a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sleaford, Ken
K Sleaford
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Sleaford. Ken and two sisters grew up at Fen Farm Coningsby during the war. The farm was next to RAF Coningsby.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Sleaford, K
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right, so that’s [unclear], so this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Ken Sleaford at his home on the 12th of April? [unclear] today isn’t it? I’ll put that there. If I’m looking down, I’m just making sure it’s still working.
KS: Yeah
DK: I’ll put that there. As I say, what will happen is, these interviews will go into the centre and that will be online as well, cause what we really want is both people who served in the RAF Bomber Command and those who witnessed certain things
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: And all that but it’s, I mean, a lot of what we are picking up there is a lot of social history between the 1930s up to the 1950s cause always like to talk about what they were doing before the war and after the war
US: Well, that’s it [unclear] like Dad’s disappeared off the planet, all that’s gone [unclear]?
DK: Yeah, yeah. Ok, then, just ask you Ken, what were you doing immediately before the war?
KS: I was farming with my dad,
DK: Alright, and this was
KS: While I was still at school. Yeah.
DK: Alright. So this was on an old Fen farm
KS: This was old Fen farm, yeah
DK: So, how long had the farm been in your family?
KS: Oh, couldn’t tell you, years, years.
DK: Many generations.
KS: Yeah. And my grandad had it before then like
DK: And so, what sort of farm was it then, what was the, what
KS: Korn, [unclear], sugar beet, then kale and this sort of thing with the sheep, we had beef and sheep
DK: Alright. So, what was your average day like working on the farm? Did you have to get up early and
KS: I get up early, yeah
DK: [unclear]
KS: Night and day when it was lambing time. yeah
DK: So, what time would you get up then for the lambing?
KS: Dad [unclear], Dad used to be up in and out bed all night like, I didn’t know a lot because I was still at school and when I left school cause I worked my dad then like and had the same job then
DK: So how old were you when you left school?
KS: Fourteen
DK: And presumably it was expected that you’d go work on the farm
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Alright. So, the farm area then, that’s now taken up by the airfield
KS: That’s right
DK: So, you say a little bit about how that came about? Presumably you lost some of your land to the airfield
KS: Yeah, we lost it all [unclear], we left Coningsby in ’49, that was after the war like, but I just [unclear] first come [unclear] and fill things down. Coningsby opened in 1940 but it started in 1937, is that right? When they first started building the aerodrome
DK: So, can you remember what happened then? Was your father approached by officials to say [unclear]?
KS: I can’t remember, I can’t remember that, they just come [unclear] I was working with my father on one of the farms, come all the bulldozers in there then, pushing hedges up, filling dykes in and
DK: So, the bulldozers literally turned up one day
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: And they would
KS: That was it, yeah, then gradually getting a bit more and a bit more until they got a lot of the [unclear] like
DK: Alright.
KS: Yeah
DK: And how did your family feel about that then? Were you
KS: Well, [unclear], Dad had that one farm and he had another one at Rayden Corner and another one at [unclear], they all averaged about forty acre a piece
DK: Right, ok, so your father, I mean, lost the one
KS: Yeah, but then, been reloading that one then the man that was in the farm at Rayden Corner, his father died so he was moving into his so we decided to sell the other two, had to get a bigger one which we did at Gayton le Marsh then like.
DK: Can you recall if your father was given compensation for the loss of [unclear]
KS: I can’t remember that, no, can’t remember that, he’d be bound to be but had [unclear] like yeah.
DK: So, what do you remember about the buildings that went on then? Was it day and night?
KS: Oh yeah, we had lodgers in right from the start then, Irishmen ran those building and everything
DK: I was gonna ask, actually where the labourers came from, were they basically?
KS: There was Irish and all sorts, we had lodgers right from the beginning, all through the war we had airmen and everything
DK: Right
KS: We had a big house with six, seven bedrooms like, so we used to let them to the workmen then when the Air Force come, they moved in
DK: And can you remember the day the Air Force did move in? Was
KS: The first aeroplane coming in, it was in trouble that was when all the [unclear] up the aerodrome went actually opened then, that was a Spitfire one Saturday afternoon, it come in right through the [unclear] till it got to the other side cause it hit one and that crashed him. That was the first one, then the Hampdens come and there was on a Sunday morning, they all came in on a Sunday morning the Hampdens did, that was the first bombers like
DK: So, what did you think when you saw all these Hampdens landing? I guess you’ve seen them land.
KS: Yeah, I always stood in the yard just behind the yard like, just watching them all land in, I was more or less on the aerodrome all the time opened to it because the crew doors open and everything cause the cows and everything beyond the airfield like
DK: So, the airfield itself wasn’t sort of barbed wired or anything off it you could just wander onto it
KS: Yeah, we used to play on the peri-track and things and the runways when they [unclear] then was a long time before they brought the runways but they say the Hampdens come and then the Manchesters came, then the land was so wet and boggy they couldn’t get off with the bigger planes so they had to move back to Waddington then I think
DK: Right
KS: And then they put the runways in
DK: So, up until that point it would’ve been a grass
KS: Yes, grass, yeah
DK: [unclear] yeah
KS: Yeah, and the planes used to, the Hampdens used to come round over the top of the building taking off and loading up with the bombs and everything, I was right on the aerodrome all the time but while they came over the buildings I don’t know cause the far side was all clear, nothing in the road at all [laughs]
DK: Oh, right, so, you then had the crew billeted, did you, did you have to do that then, was it something you wanted, your family wanted to do or were you asked to take in the various aircrew?
KS: No, just [unclear] like, yeah, [unclear] lodgings and which mother took in same way all the aircrews, they used to call in for a cup of tea in the morning and things and then if they were going on ops, if there was council for an hour they used to come back in the house and sit in the house and have coffee and two [unclear], yeah.
DK: Did you get to know any of the aircrew well?
KS: Oh yeah, I had three sisters not alive then [unclear] well one of my sisters, not the eldest, the next one, she got in the Lancaster and went through fly around Blackpool, one morning Dad says, where’s Lily gone? Nobody said cause they knew where she was and doesn’t tell Dad [laughs]. Yeah. Now we had crews in and well, we got to know a lot of Australians, everything was in there then like, [unclear] Lancasters was parked one there, one there, we was here in the house like, was Lancasters all around
DK: So, that’s a long time ago, can you remember any of their names at all?
KS: No, can’t remember, remember some of the
DK: Ah.
US: [unclear] saying that
DK: Just, this is just for the recording here, so there is a picture of the aircrew there in front of a Lancaster
KS: Yeah, [unclear]
DK: This is
KS: After that with all the signatures behind
DK: And on the back the signatures
KS: That’s it, yeah. [unclear] The flight sergeant
US: In appreciation of many happy mornings spent
KS: A flight sergeant, Flight Sergeant George Cherry, he was lodging with us at the time, he used to develop the fighters when they came back off ops
DK: Alright, so this photo then was given to your family then in appreciation of
KS: Yeah, they used to sign that when is it been in the house like for coffee and things like that
DK: So there’s quite mixes, some, so there’s a Rhodesian
KS: Yeah, oh, there’s all sort
DK: Jamaican, so then you got Judges Johnny’s crew
US2: All the names of the crews
DK: And then the name of the crews, yeah, so Princes Joe’s crew,
US1: [unclear] like them
DK: It’s ok
US1: You’re alright? Yeah?
DK: I’m just trying to make out the signatures
KS: Let’s put that light on but
DK: [unclear] crew
US2: There was somebody at Coningsby, at BBMF was trying to research, trying to find out some of them but they haven’t come back to me
DK: There’s here, there’s nothing on here to identify the actual [unclear]
KS: No, can’t remember any, no, [unclear] don’t know
DK: That’s a bit unfortunate that
KS: Yeah
DK: Obviously one of the Coningsby based squadrons
US: I think the squadron number’s on the back in, the squadron number on the back
KS: The squadron is 97
DK: [unclear] 97 Squadron, yeah
KS: 83 and 97 Squadron, yeah
DK: So, this is gonna be either 83, 97 or combination of the two
KS: There’s a Squadron [unclear] Lancasters there to move back into
US1: Get in touch with you Karen tell you what
US2: Yeah, some of them were, Coningsby BBMF were trying to get sorting out
US: Yeah, some people have got in touch with you on Facebook [unclear] seen it and told you what it was
US2: Yeah
US1: No? Sorry
US: Yeah, no, I think you’re right
DK: I’m trying to think, maybe it’s one thing I have seen this before, was it on Facebook?
US2: Facebook
DK: Ah! Speaking of deja vu
US1: Yeah, I’ve seen it before
DK: I recognize it now, yeah
US2: But there were some replies from on that and comments on that on Facebook. You see how close the aerodrome was to the farmhouse
DK: Yes, yeah
US2: And we always sort of laugh and think that the little boy standing there might be this one here [laughs], we never know.
US1: No
KS: No, that was the same photo like
DK: Right, yeah
KS: And that was the squadron over there
DK: That’s [unclear] 54, isn’t it? 54 Squadron?
KS: That’s the farmhouse and there’s the Manchester, as you see, was right on the aerodrome
DK: Alright
KS: [unclear] that one is
DK: So, is the farm building still there?
KS: No, no
US1: Gone now
KS: It’s all gone now, it’s all gone
US: There is still a tree there. There is still a tree there where the farmyard was but up until three or four year ago you could still get to it but the fence off now, you can’t get to it
DK: Just for the recording again, there is a photo of Fen farm,
KS: Yeah
DK: Fen farm, with an Avro Manchester at the back, then a close up of Fen farm
KS: And that was took out the Manchester and the Lancaster cause our flight sergeant what lived with us, he took the photos, had a fly round took the photos
DK: So, you knew who took this then. That’s been taken from one of the aircraft
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
US: You said that was a chap called Mr Cherry, did you?
KS: Yeah, George Cherry
DK: George Cherry
KS: And flight sergeant, I tell you he did that for photos when he come back from ops like [unclear] but I used to go and watch him
US1: He used to do it in the kitchen at the house [unclear] they developed the film what they took over where they’ve been bombing, you had to develop them in the kitchen when they got back [laughs]
KS: Yeah
US2: [unclear]
US1: Yeah
DK: He must have known where they’d been before it was announced in the, on the radio
KS: Yeah, yeah. Lord Haw Haw, was it? Haw Haw, he used to come on the radio telling us where they were going and what the Germans is doing [clock chimes]
DK: You got to know a lot of the aircrew quite well then?
KS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: So, after the runways were built, presumably that’s when the Lancasters arrived?
KS: That’s right. Yeah, yeah.
DK: And can you remember the first time you saw those?
KS: Yeah, it coming on a Saturday and the first Lancaster, it passed just behind our house, I was playing with my mate, course I couldn’t get home fast enough, and it was a white one. It was a white one, on this book here I’m reading that lady, she used to deliver all these Spitfires and things, don’t know what you call her, oh Mary Ellis, yeah. That’s quite interesting that book is
DK: Cause she’s still alive, isn’t she, Mary Ellis?
KS: Yes, she’s just been having her ninetieth birthday.
DK: A hundred.
KS: A hundred, yeah, a hundred. She went up in a Spitfire as well.
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: So, you can remember the women flyers delivery?
KS: Yeah, we had the WAAFs, someone airmen was married to the WAAFs, there was transport [unclear] brought crews round in like a minibus like, yeah and one of the chap [unclear] was these Air Force place he was married a WAAF remember him [unclear] used to call him [unclear] was, yeah, but I think [unclear] they’ve gone like and that, that’s what we did,
DK: [aircraft droning sound] I haven’t lived in Lincolnshire for very long, [unclear] seven years, still getting used to this
US1: [laughs] [unclear]
KS: Frank [unclear], he was another, I’m not sure whether he was a crew member or not but he got very [unclear] with me sister and we kept in touch with him after he retired and he went to live in Scotland then I think, or Wales was it? He still kept in touch but he died about two years ago he did yeah.
DK: So your family then did stay in touch with some of the
KS: Yeah, we got a friend Will [unclear] and [unclear] kept in touch with my sister right up to his death now
DK: Ok, can you remember the actual raids themselves, the aircraft going out and coming back?
KS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember one coming in one night and he parked [unclear] in front of the house and there’s nearly all night, [unclear] there’s all shut up, yeah, I remember that and one night one of the Hampdens was there, one crashed behind the yard and it had a land mine on and we had to move out that night and had to go round Raydhan Corner so we had to move out and but while we had to move out which’d been alright as long as it didn’t rain, I never got over that, is it rain with that landmine went off or not.
DK: So I suppose you know it was defused then, it didn’t, it never exploded.
KS: It could’ve been, no, it was alright but, we’d come back next day, it was Manchester, they had quite a lot of trouble with them
DK: Yeah
KS: [unclear] In that book, on that book I think, where I was coming out from school and seeing going round and round, just one wheel down, just got home as it landed, cause [unclear] the ground and that was it, I remember him coming in
DS: So, he spun on the ground then, did he?
KS: That’s it, yeah, so was it, ground it spun like
DK: And can you remember the aircraft coming back damaged at all?
KS: Yeah, yeah, there used to be some little aeroplanes [unclear] the WAAFs used to drive them all out, used to be an Avro Anson, Airspeed Oxford and the Lysander. And the Lysander it used to pull [unclear] behind for shooting at us and one of them come back and they shot at the plane and this air Flight Sergeant what lodge with us, he had to go and chalk all round the [unclear] and take photos of us, I can remember that,
DK: Find out who did it.
KS: Yeah
DK: [unclear] a good shot
KS: Yeah
DK: So how did you sort of look back on that time know and?
KS: Oh, I can remember quite a lot about that life, yeah, used to let us, we could go across the aerodrome, before they really fenced it all, got corner of before they fenced it off, they never bothered at all, we used our proper bikes up Lancaster while we was attending the cows in the fields, it was like that, no, it never bothered at all, we used to bike about and play on the runways
DK: So, how old would you’ve been then? You’re a teenager then or?
KS: Yeah, I’d be, ten, eleven or somewhere on there, I think. I remember playing on there one Saturday afternoon and seeing this plane come over, these black objects came out and went on as crows, these bombs Gerry had come, so, Mum, come and [unclear], Granny, come and see this, this plane about on the runway on the trike
DK: While the Germans were bombing it
KS: Yeah, you had to go in the house quick and of course all around the aerodrome they’d built air raid shelters for us and nights and nights we more or less lived in the air raid shelters cause when the airplanes came back, Germans used to come with them, was going round and round all night, we had to spend the biggest part of the nights in the air raid shelters. We got incendiary cases, all sorts, in the yard, incendiaries, never set a yard of fire out and bombs went right across to neighbours one night and I remember Dad going to see if the neighbours were all right [unclear]
DK: So, by, war’s end then and it’s all a bit quieter now, so you’ve actually lost the farm completely in 1949?
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: Right. And it’s that when it was demolished or
KS: Yeah, soon after, yeah.
DK: Was that because the airfield was extending or?
KS: That’s right, yeah. Had the jets coming, they want extended and they closed that Boston [unclear] from Rayden Corner to Coningsby closed that road completely, now you gotta go right round [unclear] now like so they extended well, I think the Americans come after that then the Vulcans, they come after that
DK: So, where were you, which farm were on at this point then when?
KS: When we left?
DK: Yeah
KS: We lived at Fen Farm.
DK: Fen Farm. Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: And but when that was knocked down, which farm did you go to then?
KS: Well, [unclear] Near Louth, Gayton Le Marsh, Dad bought another farm up there, hundred and ninety-seven acres, so we moved up there then like
DK: So then you, for the rest of the time then you’ve worked farms from then on.
KS: That’s right, yeah. I never come back for years then like, never come back we nearly lost that like, but we still go down [unclear] where it is, get to [unclear] just see this poplar tree still there where the farm was
DK: Yeah. Ok, I’ll just pause there.
KS: Yeah
DK: I’ll just put that back on again, sorry you were saying
US: There are some parachutes coming down here, didn’t know what they was
KS: No. The Halifax was coming back, he was in trouble and they wouldn’t let him land at Coningsby so they bailed out over Coningsby which turned in chaos, they thought it was Gerry come, run the cows in the field and jumped over this train and hid in the bushes while things settled down, anyway the Halifax, it landed at Woodhall, it got down alright but there’s only the crew, biggest part of the crew bailed out at Coningsby like, that put the wind up [unclear] always [unclear] Gerry had come
DK: Did you actually see the Halifax or just
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah, yeah, it just come flying over the train why they wouldn’t let him land at Coningsby I don’t know that’s what the, that’s flight sergeant told us anyway
US1: And then when they’re building the runway and things you used to play on the dumpers at night
KS: Yeah, I [unclear] got the dumper there, started this dumper up we couldn’t just start it and went for a ride, course it stopped, didn’t it? Then we had to wind it back, put in gear and wind it back, couldn’t just started them all. Now the Air Force used to come down with the cows and things used parking for a coffee or anything, we used to try most of them out as when they come and to have a ride, didn’t bother at all, you scam right round the yard and bring them back where we started from
DK: Can you remember back at some of the aircrew who you [unclear] on ops that you didn’t see again?
KS: No, I can’t remember the names, I can remember the one, one the field just get in the house, they didn’t come back one night, just asked the aircrew, the ground staff like was it coming back, no, it’s gone, they said, that was it like
US1: You used to have a few prisoners of war working on the farm, didn’t you?
KS: Oh, we had the Germans [unclear] working for us at Coningsby like, yeah
DK: Was that during the war itself or start,
KS: Yeah
DK: During the war itself.
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. Were they good workers, the German POWs?
KS: The Germans were not [unclear] [laughs]
DK: A bit lazy, were they?
KS: Yeah. They weren’t very good, most of them wanted to get [unclear], yeah
DK: And did you get to know any of the POWs at all?
KS: Yeah, one, well, was a real old chap and he was about to come to live in, Dad’s got him to come to live in with us, like he just [unclear] wanted to go back but he didn’t want to go back, he was going back to the Russian zone and something and he didn’t want to go back [unclear] was when he got back, well, I’ve still a letter somewhere and when he got back, poor chap, the wife had divorced him and his [unclear] nobody wanted to know him, he died soon after then like but he was [unclear] he was, a real good worker, he used to come in the mornings start work without being told what to do or anything
DK: So, you quite liked the Germans you met then.
KS: Yes, we got on well with them, yeah. There was one man, he was only eighteen, he did live next door, next farm like, he used to come to us lads and play about [unclear] a nice lad, yeah
DK: So, they had quite a bit of freedom then, POWs
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Cause they didn’t have anywhere to go really, did they?
KS: No, I mean, lived at [unclear] far away like. I used to come off and Dad used to fetch him on a Sunday for dinner and on a Sunday with us as well, this old man, he was really a nice chap, he was
DK: And did they speak English?
KS: Yeah. Not too bad at all, no.
DK: You weren’t speaking German to them?
KS: No, never [laughs]
DK: So, you were able to communicate
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Ok, that’s,
KS: Yeah
DK: [unclear] alright. So how do you look back on those times now? It must have been, for a child I guess, quite an adventurous childhood but
KS: Yeah, it was, yeah
DK: Did you realize the whole of what was going on, that it was a war and [unclear]?
KS: That’s right, yeah, yeah, I remember most of it like. Remember
US1: Did you realize how big a thing it was, what was happening or not? Or was it just?
KS: Oh yeah, I remember. I can remember the first bomb coming over, had it did go whistling past the house and it dropped at the public school [unclear], right in front of the house, blew all the windows and doors and everything [unclear]
Dk: So you knew the dangers of what was going on?
KS: Yeah, yeah.
US1: And then all the bombs were parked down the roadside, wouldn’t they?
KS: Well, the bomb dump was just behind the yard, where that Manchester stood, there’s one bomb dump there
DK: The bomb dump, yeah.
KS: Just behind there, the bomb dump was just behind there somewhere, [unclear] the bomb dump was just behind us like and there is another big bomb dump at near [unclear] in the wood there like and down the road down there from New York, the bombs were all stacked down the roadside there then nearly on a Sunday morning, me and my cousin used to go at [unclear] station on the side line watching them taking bombs, used to bring them to Coningsby up the rail, then on a Sunday morning we used to go and watch them like
DK: As they came off the railway line
KS: That’s right, yeah
DK: And then onto the trucks [unclear]
KS: That’s right, yeah, I remember that. Never bothered about us being about at all like
DK: I think the health and safety would have something to say about that now, wouldn’t it? Kids at home [unclear]
KS: [unclear] near Coningsby now, it’s all fenced all round like
DK: Yes, yeah, yeah
KS: I keep trying to get a ride on the Lancaster, but I can’t get one
DK: But you said your sister did that
KS: Yes, my sister went, yeah, she went
DK: Did she ever say what it was like [unclear]?
KS: No, she liked it, yeah, she liked it, yeah. I went, I had a look round it, yeah, used to take them in, look round one, yeah, I’ve been in one. I can remember [unclear] in the wintertime they used to grease the wings or something, stopping from freezing up and when the years come used to wash them in petrol, petrol was running [unclear] in gallons, wasted gallons on gallons, [unclear] about these airliners still freeze up the same cause [unclear]
DK: Yeah. The antifreeze on the wings now wasn’t petrol I think
US2: Probably slightly better
DK: So, after the war then, do you remember much about Coningsby then and?
KS: No, after the war we soon left then like, can’t remember what come after but said the Vulcan and the Hurricanes come but, yeah, now I can’t remember what happened to the airplane during [clock chimes], well, that one there at East Kirkby, it was stationed at Coningsby one time cuas Squadron, [unclear] Squadron
US1: But you still [unclear] at the park is it at the end of the war, wouldn’t you?
KS: Yeah, oh yeah. We used to go on camp to the pictures and things, me sister used to take us to the pictures and things, I never bothered about anything in the war, airmen was lodging was never short of cake or anything used to bring from the NAAFI, yeah, no, well, we only kids is all excited about everything then like
DK: [unclear] Yeah, yeah. Ok then
US2: [unclear] she remembers cause she’s my younger sister making her toys
DK: Right
KS: That was the Germans, they could make anything, couldn’t they? and [unclear] made my brother, he’s a lot younger, they made him German caps same as [unclear] Lily lived in
DK: You have still got them then?
KS: No.
DK: No.
KS: No.
DK: This was the German prisoners making them?
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: Yeah
US1: Got anything in the cupboard there that the Germans made?
KS: No
US1: [unclear], didn’t they?
KS: No, nothing they made
US1: That brass bolt, didn’t the Germans make it?
KS: No
US1: No, I thought they did.
KS: No. I don’t think so.
US2: You’re ok?
DK: Yeah. Just
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Sleaford
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASleafordK170412, PSleafordK1701
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Pending review
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00:30:07 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
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Ken Sleaford was born and raised near Coningsby on the family farm. Tells of life on the farm before and during the war, when it was handed over to the Air Force, to be converted into an airfield and incorporated into RAF Coningsby. Mentions various episodes: seeing a Spitfire for the first time; Irish labourers working on the site; the friendly relationship with the aircrews; spending nights in the air raid shelters; a flight sergeant lodging at their house; an aircrew bailing out of a Halifax; driving the dumpers; German prisoners of war; watching the bombs being delivered by train. As a little boy, he remembers having a very exciting and eventful time. After the war, he moved with his family to another farm at Gayton le Marsh.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
childhood in wartime
Halifax
Hampden
Lancaster
Manchester
prisoner of war
RAF Coningsby
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1131/11657/ASmithJ180111.1.mp3
55ba8a2ee1c62103a463afde513b2445
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith, Joan
J Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Joan Smith. She served in the Land Army.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, J-2
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Joan Smith at her home on the 11th of January. It’s 2018 now, isn’t it?
JS: Yes.
DK: 2018. Yes. Just making sure this is working. So that’s Joan Smith at her home on the 11th of January 2018. If I, if I just put that there.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Just so it picks you up. It’s more important it picks you up rather than me.
JS: Yeah.
DK: And if it’s alright if I —
JS: What are you looking for?
DK: Just wondering if I could sit a bit closer if that’s ok.
JS: Well —
DK: Is there a chair or something I could —
JS: Move this over or —
DK: Yeah.
JS: See if you can get a chair from the kitchen if you —
DK: Can I get a chair from the kitchen?
JS: That may be easier. Yes.
DK: Probably the easiest.
[pause]
JS: He could have used that, couldn’t he?
[pause]
DK: Put that there. If I could just close the door.
JS: Yes. Of course.
DK: So we don’t get the TV if that’s ok.
JS: Well, I could have switched that off. Never mind.
[pause]
DK: I’m just going to take my jacket off. If I’m looking down I’m just doing it to make sure the recorder is working.
JS: Right.
DK: Put that there. Yeah. We’re all ok. So I just wanted to ask you what, what you were doing immediately before the war?
JS: Hairdressing.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JS: Which was not a Reserved Occupation.
DK: Right.
JS: So at eighteen you would have had to have gone in to either factory work or into the forces. So I decided I didn’t want factory work.
DK: No.
JS: So I went in at seventeen and a half.
DK: Right.
JS: To the Land Army. About 1942/43. Something like that.
DK: So, how was recruitment to the Land Army done? Did you have to go along to a Recruitment Centre or [unclear] board?
JS: No. Well, not as they do it now. It was simply one woman was in charge. I lived in Yorkshire. Sheffield at the time.
DK: Right.
JS: And you went there to see her at her big palatial home. She sort of interviewed you, asked you various questions and it wasn’t like as formal as anything. And then, ‘We would let you know.’ Which they did. And then you had to go and collect this uniform, instructions and you were just sent to an area. And I went near Fulbeck.
DK: Right.
JS: And in some areas, I’ve got books on the Land Army and they tell you they’ve had training and all sorts of things. We never got. I think there were different, different ideas as of different people running it.
DK: Right.
JS: The agricultural people. Because we didn’t get any training. You just went to the farm and you just had to pick up as you went along.
DK: Right.
JS: Whatever was going off.
DK: [cough] Excuse me.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Right. So were you given a uniform at all? Or —
JS: Yes. It was sort of corduroy knee, like riding trousers.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Long socks. One pair of shoes. Two of those airtex beige shirts and a green pullover.
DK: Right.
JS: And a hat. And they did say a mackintosh. You weren’t given a mackintosh you were given a coat.
DK: Right.
JS: Which was quite, quite smart actually. And it wasn’t replaced as they said in the thing. It was a case of you had to buy them. I mean, I think we were treated quite shabbily really because we got no money when we came out. No coupons and everything was on coupons then.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And I quite enjoyed it.
DK: So the, so the farm itself. Was it near to where you lived or did you have to —
JS: Oh no. No. You were just sent.
DK: You had to go. Leave home.
JS: Yes. I lived in Yorkshire and this one was at Fulbeck.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: Here, in Lincolnshire.
DK: So presumably that was the first time you were away from home was it?
JS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So was that a bit of an experience?
JS: Yes. It was actually. Yes. Yes. And I mean if you went in the forces normally they would not let you go home for about a month or they didn’t want you phoning home.
DK: Right.
JS: A month. And of course mobiles weren’t in the picture then.
DK: No.
JS: In case that you did get homesick and you went home and you didn’t want to come back. But yes it was. But everybody else there was in the same position as you anyway.
DK: Right.
JS: So that helped somehow. But a lot depended on what farm you got.
DK: So how many were you there then on this particular farm? How many Land Army ladies?
JS: Oh, there would only be you. If you were living on a farm it would be either one land girl or two.
DK: Right.
JS: Depending on what amount of work because the men that they’d had were called up.
DK: Right. [cough] excuse me.
JS: Do you want a drink?
DK: No. I’m ok thank you. So in your particular case then on this farm was it just yourself or two of you?
JS: No. I was in a hostel.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JS: With about, I should think there was fifteen girls. And it was a big house they’d taken over. And there was a cook there. There was somebody that did the cleaning and you had about six to a room.
DK: Right.
JS: With —
DK: How was that then? Finding yourself in a dormitory with six other girls?
JS: Well, you didn’t care that much.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was alright.
DK: Did you all get on?
JS: Yes. On the whole.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was always bits of squabbles about things. Somebody. But on the whole yes. And we had this what they called a matron that was in charge that you had to be in by 10 o’clock unless you’d got special permission. And, and then there would be another one in charge of the work and she would allocate which farms you went to.
DK: Right. That’s what I was going to ask. You didn’t keep going to the same farm. You just went to —
JS: No. Not unless, because most of them —
DK: Yeah.
JS: Wouldn’t have had enough work all through.
DK: Right. So you went to the farm where they needed the workers.
JS: Yes. And if it was five miles away you had to cycle there.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And then do a day’s work and then cycle back. Over five miles she took you in this little mini-van thing she had. But some, some of the farmers didn’t accept us. They found fault with everything because they didn’t think that girls could do the work.
DK: No.
JS: That their men had done. And then we had a lot of Italian prisoners that would be there in groups but they never worked in ones or twos. They always worked in a group.
DK: Right.
JS: But they were very easy to get on with. Very polite. We also had, what do they call it? Objectors.
DK: Conscientious objectors. Yeah.
JS: And I don’t know if they were all alike but the lot we had there the only thing they were objecting to was in case they wouldn’t go in the services was because they might be disabled or they might get killed.
DK: Right.
JS: Because they were vile. They really were.
DK: I was going to say you didn’t get on with the conscientious objectors.
JS: I did not get on with them.
DK: No.
JS: None of us did.
DK: No.
JS: Because this particular lot were really foul mouthed. They really were awful. And I refused in the end to work with them.
DK: Really?
JS: Well, because the leader of them he thought it was very funny if you were doing harvesting. The mice would all run out of the stooks and he would get one and he would try and drop it down the neck of one of the girls or something like that. And he did it when I was working with them and she went hysterical this girl. Well, you could imagine couldn’t you? And I just said if he ever came near me with it, I’d got this pitchfork that I was doing the things with he would get it and he would have get it too.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And I just refused to work with them after that. I just said there’s no way. Because at that time my brother was in the Navy and he’d, they’d just had a, didn’t sink the boat but it was attacked and they were stayed off in Malta for a time. But he was only quite young and I thought why should he be risking his life for scum like this?
DK: So there, you, there was a lot of resentment against them then presumably.
JS: Oh yes. Yes. There were.
DK: Yeah.
JS: If it was raining they didn’t have to turn out at all. If it was raining we did. If it was until 11 o’clock.
DK: Yeah.
JS: If it was still raining then if the farmer couldn’t find you anything to do indoors or some sort of work.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Then you could go back. But other than that you had to be there but they didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JS: No. They didn’t.
DK: So the Italian prisoners then you got on with them better did you?
JS: Yes. Because they did work.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Whereas the —
DK: Was there a bit of a language barrier or did they manage to speak?
JS: With some of them but you could, I mean you couldn’t have a fluent conversation with them but you could make yourself understood. And they were very courteous. They really were. And as I say they did work. Conscientious objectors didn’t. They’d skive and do all sorts of things. But —
DK: Yeah.
JS: As I say whether that lot was just different from some of them that had got these ideas that there shouldn’t be war well we all know that but —
DK: Yeah. So you don’t think the conscientious objectors had sort of high ideals. They just didn’t want to get hurt.
JS: No. Not that lot. That lot certainly didn’t.
DK: No. No.
JS: Certainly didn’t.
DK: It must have been difficult for you if you’ve got relations serving.
JS: Well, I refused to work with them any longer and I had to go to oh [pause] what’s the garden city up there? Not, the big one. Spa town. I tell you my memory’s going like nothing. Anyway, I had to go there because the committee for the whole area there was there. I had to explain why. He didn’t. And he was never called to whatsits over it at all.
DK: Really.
JS: Or any of them there. But in the end most of it got that most of the girls didn’t have to go and work with them because none of them wanted to work with them.
DK: Right.
JS: So —
DK: There was real resentment then. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: There was real resentment about them. But we just did general farm work. Some, if they went in for rat catching —
DK: Yeah. I was going to say what was your day like? What did, presumably you got up and had something to eat and then you were told where you were going.
JS: Well, you got up. And then before you had breakfast you would go in to the kitchen and there would be a big sink bath there with a cloth in it and there’d be bread in it. Slices of bread. And on the table there might be tomatoes or some cheese or anything that you could put in.
DK: Yeah.
JS: On occasion there might be some cake. And you just had to scramble down there and get what you could because there was always going to be somebody no matter if you all got up at the same time and you’d perhaps be left with one slice of bread and nothing to put in it. So it was a case of get down there first or you didn’t get anything.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And the farmer’s wives on the whole were not that generous about offering you —
DK: No?
JS: Hot drinks. No.
DK: Oh dear.
JS: And yes, it, and then as I say you’d either have to bike or go there to the farm. If you were on just general, mostly it would be probably weeding fields of —
DK: Right.
JS: Vegetables or plucking them out, you know. Thinning them out. But the fields there were about a mile long because it was all flat.
DK: Right.
JS: And all, went on forever.
DK: So you were weeding.
JS: Weeding. Yeah.
DK: Right.
JS: And or you could picking stuff. Picking vegetables. Picking. Picking fruit. It would depend what the farm was doing. Sometimes you’d get farmyard duties.
DK: Right.
JS: With the animals. I never did any milking.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because I didn’t like that. I liked working with the pigs. I quite liked pigs.
DK: Right.
JS: It was just sort of as I say general.
DK: Yeah.
JS: You’d have to clean the cowsheds out which was a job I hated. And harvesting time of course was absolutely mad. Oh, it was mad. It was.
DK: So how was the harvest done then? What sort of machinery were you using?
JS: The old thing where you got clouds of dust from it. You got all the chaff. You got all down your neck.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And you’d be itching and it was horrible. Like the threshing bit of it but, and you’d have to sort of bind it up. I mean now it’s all done all in one go isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JS: There’s no problem at all.
DK: The old combine harvester.
JS: Yeah. Oh yeah, that goes straight through.
DK: Straight through and pick it up. Yeah.
JS: We had to do everything. Then we had to put the stooks together as well. And then when they’d dried out of course the thing would come around. We’d have to chuck them on the cart ready to put them on the haystack. It was hard work.
DK: So you say initially the farmers were a bit shall we say cynical about ladies doing the work.
JS: Oh, yes. They were. Yes.
DK: Did they change their mind after a while?
JS: Yes. They did.
DK: Right.
JS: They did. Yes.
DK: Did they come to appreciate what you were doing?
JS: Well, yes. They, they just refused to accept the fact that girls could do what the blokes had done before and I think in a lot of cases we did a blooming sight more than what the men had done.
DK: And did they, the farmers change their attitudes towards you in the end or —
JS: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Right.
JS: They were grudgingly but they did. And well they couldn’t have managed without us because the men were all being called up that were of a young age and if they were old.
DK: Yeah.
JS: They weren’t going to get that much work out of them were they?
DK: So how long were your days then? How long were you working on the, on the fields and on the farms?
JS: Well, crikey. Well, we’d have to be there for sometimes 8 o’clock. Half past eight. And in the summer it would be sort of long hours because of the amount of, you know the field work and everything else that had to be done.
DK: So what time did you finish then?
JS: About six. Or sometimes eight. And you used to get Saturdays off but sometimes you couldn’t rely on that. If the farmer wanted you there Saturday and you were at that farm you would have to go in.
DK: Right.
JS: But you didn’t get double time or anything like that like they do now.
DK: So what was the pay like then?
JS: If you were in a hostel you got sixteen shillings and you got your board and lodging. That was paid by the agricultural thing.
DK: Right.
JS: To the Land Army. By the government to the Land Army and if you were actually in a farm house I think it was about thirty two shillings but you would have to pay the farmer for your board and lodging.
DK: Yeah.
JS: So it wasn’t very highly paid but I suppose it was [pause] and it varied from areas.
DK: Right.
JS: If the pay was more in other areas they got the corresponding amount. And you didn’t get free travel. You got one free train pass a year.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Which isn’t very much. If you were ill that was tough. You didn’t get paid. And, well as I say they didn’t, I don’t think there was any appreciation. Not ‘til after the war. And it was some years back now I went to a big service at Lincoln Cathedral.
DK: Right. For all the Land Army girls.
JS: For all the land armies.
DK: Yeah.
JSDK: And it was sad in a way because you thought they’d all been young. All been land girls. And there were so many in wheelchairs, so many on walking frames and you looked around and you thought oh lord. This is —
DK: Did you, did you stay in touch with any of your Land Army colleagues?
JS: Well, for a while.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. And then they’ve all gradually died off or emigrated or whatever. I mean some married. Married some of the farmers or the farmer’s sons.
DK: Really. So some of the farmer’s appreciated them in the end then [laughs]
JS: I had no intention of marrying any farmer.
DK: No. No.
JS: I’d had enough because we were —
DK: Do you think what the Land Army did then in the sort of bigger picture of the war was it something really important do you think?
JS: Oh, yes. It was. Because in, from Fulbeck I was moved up to near Selby. And that was a place called Bourn but not spelled with an E on the end.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And there was a big aerodrome there and that, that was a Bomber Command and we used to grow their vegetables for them.
DK: Right.
JS: Go on the field. And the fields had belonged to the farmers but —
DK: Yeah.
JS: I don’t know what arrangement they had but we used to grow all their vegetables and everything that they needed for that and you know that was, that was quite all right. But we used to get invited to the dances and anything going on there and they would provide transport for us and bring us back and that was good. But —
DK: So you saw quite a bit then of the Bomber Command then. Of the airfields and the aircraft.
JS: Oh yeah. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. Because we worked on the fields just off from where they were flying really.
DK: And this was Bourn, was it?
JS: Bourn in Yorkshire.
DK: Right. Yeah. So, what are your memories of that then? Of the airfields then.
JS: Oh that, that was, it was a lot [pause] a lot nicer. A lot nicer because I think the farmers there were beginning to accept you and realise that —
DK: Yeah.
JS: If they didn’t, if we were not there they’d be in a real pickle.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because some of them had been very poor farmers. I mean they were said about a poor farmer didn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JS: And some of them were very small but with the war that made them because they had to extend with government help and grow crops or get more animals in. So you don’t hear very much of the poor farmer these days.
DK: No. That’s very true.
JS: And, you know as I say it was [pause] and then socially when you moved up there we got invited to all these things at the aerodrome.
DK: Right.
JS: And so —
DK: So what did you think of the airmen when you met them at these do’s?
JS: Well, they were very nice [laughs] I didn’t meet my husband there.
DK: No. Oh. So, if I can ask then where did you meet your husband then? That was during the war then that you met him.
JS: No. Just after.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: Just after because he was out in Burma and they were the last to be called back.
DK: Right.
JS: Because they called them the forgotten army out there.
DK: Yeah. So, what was he actually doing in Burma? Do you know?
JS: They were flying the Gurkhas out to the Japanese.
DK: Oh right.
JS: To —
DK: To Burma.
JS: From Burma.
DK: Right.
JS: I’ve got, he’s written a thing in here [pause] It’s a chap that much like you’re doing.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And he, he always had a big [pause] that’s, this is all from the Aircrew Association he belonged to.
DK: Ok.
JS: And it’s the memories.
DK: Can I just have a look at the cover of the book?
JS: Oh yes. You can.
DK: I’m just reading this for the benefit of the recording here. So this is a book here. It’s, “Wings on the Whirlwind.” Compiled and edited by Anne Grimshaw. And it’s by the Northwest Essex and —
JS: Yeah.
DK: East Hertfordshire branch of the Aircrew Association.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Well, I’ve never, never seen a copy of this before.
JS: Haven’t you? No.
DK: So, it’s —
JS: It’s the, it’s the story of all those who were in it.
DK: All the various people who were —
JS: That belonged to it and their —
DK: Right.
JS: Their sort of —
DK: So these are your husband’s pages then is it?
JS: Yes.
DK: So that’s —
JS: It’s alright. I can put it in after.
DK: Is that alright there? So that’s George Smith.
JS: Yes.
DK: And he was a navigator with 357 Squadron.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
JS: And that is [pause] Yeah. That’s him.
DK: He’s on the end there.
JS: Yeah.
DK: So George Smith. So, I’ll just read this out for the recording.
JS: Yes. Of course. Yes.
DK: If I may. “George Smith was accepted for aircrew in July 1941 and trained as a navigator. He flew Wellingtons at 14 Operational Training Unit and Stirlings at 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit in 1943. In 1944 he was posted to South East Asia Command as a Liberator reinforcement.” So he’s flying the Liberators then. Yeah. “And was with the air arm of 357 Special Duties Squadron of the Special Operations Executive.”
JS: Well, that’s when they were taking the Gurkhas out there.
DK: Right. So he was navigator on Liberators.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Doing, doing some cloak and dagger stuff by the looks of it.
JS: Oh yes. it was. He was —
DK: But it says here he was made to sign the Official Secrets Act.
JS: Yeah. Well, I never knew anything about this for years after we’d been married
DK: Really.
JS: Yeah.
DK: So he never spoke about it to you either.
JS: No. The only time he [coughs] was when he was, he wasn’t very well and he kept on about this dark patch of water and, ‘I can’t see.’
DK: Right.
JS: And I could never make out what it was you know. And I’d say to him afterwards, ‘What? What is this dark patch of water?’ And he said, ‘I don’t want to talk about it.’ And from his pilot who we were in touch with he said, ‘I can tell you about that,’ he said, ‘Because if we went out with George we knew we’d get back home,’ he said, ‘Because he’d have his head down.’ And they didn’t have all the instruments they have now.
DK: Right.
JS: For navigation. I mean it really had to be done and plotted all out. And he said, ‘It was pitch black. We couldn’t have lights on and everything was pitch black,’ he said, ‘And we had to fly very low over this great big expanse of dark water.’ And he said, ‘That’s what he’s talking about.’ he said, ‘Because it would be mile on mile on mile.’ I mean, sometimes they were flying for twenty two hours.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Which is a hell of a long time. And that’s what he got in and he used to keep saying when he went in to the nursing, when he was dying, it all came back.
DK: Right.
JS: And he’d be saying, ‘Get me out of here,’ he said. Or, ‘Tell them to come and get it over and done with,’ because he thought he’d been captured and the Japs had got him. And it was awful. It really was.
DK: So being captured by the Japanese was something that he worried about for a long time.
JS: Well, yes because they used to drop these Gurkhas and he used to say I mean, well I still send a donation to Gurkhas every year because I think they’re marvellous. And he used to say the way we treated them afterwards was appalling.
DK: Yeah.
JS: But he used to say they were young lads that went out there, he said and you knew you were dropping them right into the Japs, where the Japs were, he said and you thought are they going to ever survive? And he said it was, you know really he said and if they were your friend they were your friend for life and they would do anything for you.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He said they were wonderful blokes. But I think it used to get to him. The fact that, you know once they went out of that hatch that was it, you know. Whether with the blessed Japanese. But he was [pause] they were there for quite a long time after a lot were demobbed.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And —
DK: I notice here, in the picture here he’s at Duxford isn’t he? In the 1970s.
JS: Yes.
DK: So —
JS: Yeah. That’s when we went back. That was when Duxford was beginning because he used to go at weekends.
DK: Right.
JS: And that’s when they started rebuilding and cannibalising some of the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
JS: To make them show. It wasn’t a showplace like it is now.
DK: Yeah. The big —
JS: It was just a hangar with all these bits and pieces in and volunteers like himself. We lived in Bishops Stortford then.
DK: Right.
JS: He used to go over there at weekends and help with it. And now it’s well a great big showplace, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. So he, is that him with his crew there then? Is it?
JS: Where’s my glasses? I think it is. We’ve got photographs around the house.
DK: Right.
JS: Yeah. That’s him. That’s him there. The second one. That’s the pilot, Geoff.
DK: Right.
JS: And these two are ones that lived. This one. Wally. He’s a farmer in Canada.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And he used to come over about once every three or four years.
DK: So your husband stayed in touch with his crew.
JS: Oh yeah. They all met.
DK: Over the years then. Yeah.
JS: Every three or four years he used to come over from Canada.
DK: Right.
JS: And then they used to have a big meeting.
DK: Right.
JS: And we used to go to —
DK: Can I ask you when he passed away then? Was it —
JS: Eleven years ago.
DK: Eleven years ago. ok.
JS: So —
DK: So he didn’t really talk about what he did much then.
JS: No. There wasn’t anybody to —
DK: No.
JS: He’d talk about the Air Force as such because as I say he immediately belonged to the Aircrew Association. And then before that when we, he was still working he used to help run a cadets for the Air Force.
DK: Right.
JS: Voluntary.
DK: Right.
JS: He used to go and do.
DK: So he actually left the Air Force immediately after the war, did he? With his —
JS: Well, when he was demobbed and came back. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And then he went as a surveyor but I think he found that a bit dull.
DK: Right.
JS: But you know that’s the way.
DK: And, and yourself. When you left the Land Army what did you do? Do then?
JS: I came back. I went back in to hairdressing.
DK: Oh right.
JS: Until I got married.
DK: So did you actually meet your husband when he was in the Air Force. Or —
JS: No. He’d just come back. He’d just been demobbed.
DK: Right. Right. Ok.
JS: When I met him.
DK: You met after he was demobbed.
JS: And, you know. We met and we were married within [pause] got engaged after a fortnight and then we were married in the two months.
DK: Right.
JS: And I know my dad said, ‘It’ll never last. It won’t last. It’s too soon. They don’t know each other.’
DK: But it did.
JS: But it did.
DK: That’s good to know. So your, just for the recording here so your son in law was in the Air Force as well.
JS: Yes.
DK: And, and he’s retired now, is he?
JS: Oh yeah. About three years ago I think it is now.
DK: And you say he was a navigator.
JS: Yes. He, well engineer.
DK: Right.
JS: Because that’s, I don’t think, they don’t have navigators.
DK: So a flight engineer then.
JS: Yes.
DK: And he was on the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight then.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. He did all the flights. And after my husband died he got permission to take his ashes. And he trained at [pause] oh gosh. Not, what’s the one over that way. The aerodrome.
DK: Coningsby.
JS: Coningsby.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He trained there and there’s a bottom road and you can cut across this farmer’s field to the back of it which when they were late in at night they used to sneak in so that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JS: They could stay out late.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And he got permission to fly over and drop his ashes on the grounds there. And we were there. And the funny thing was the farmer was in the next field on a tractor and me being in the Land Army just as this came over it was weird. But we go there every year now and there’s a long avenue of trees down it right to the thing.
DK: So his ashes were dropped from the Lancaster then were they?
JS: Yes.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: And then they did a, like a salute around and came away and then every year now on that date because it was on his birthday that he was buried —
DK: Right.
JS: We go over there. We’ll put some flowers and each tree as we go down, we’re running out of trees now and just then we go out for a meal which, we do that every year.
DK: So for the recording your son in law’s name is?
JS: Ian [Malton]
DK: Ian [Malton] Right. And he has now left the RAF as well then.
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He still goes there. He runs the shoots there for because there’s lots of rabbits and things on there that are a pest to the aircraft. And they go to the annual dinners and things there at —
DK: Coningsby.
JS: No. Not at Coningsby. He’s not at Coningsby. He’s at [pause] Cranwell.
DK: Cranwell. I see. Right. And how long was he with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight? Do you know? Was it —
JS: For some time because he was up in Scotland at [pause] God my memory.
DK: Don’t worry.
JS: What’s the big one?
DK: Lossiemouth is it?
JS: Lossiemouth.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And he was there for, they moved up there from Brize Norton.
DK: So was he on the Shackletons then?
JS: Yes.
DK: Oh. Right. Ok. That explains why he then went to the Lancaster then if he was on the Shackletons.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right.
JS: And he was at Brize Norton. And my daughter was in the RAF as well. That’s how they met. And then he was moved up to Scotland and she didn’t want to go and she said, ‘It’s like, it looks like the end of the world up there. There’s nothing.’ But in the end she didn’t want to leave. She really liked it. And then he was moved back down to Cranwell.
DK: Right.
JS: And then they moved the Memorial thing to [pause] Oh. The other airport. But now they’ve moved it from there now and its elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
JS: But no, he enjoyed that. He —
DK: So just going, going back to the purpose of the interview was about the Land Army. How do you all these years later look back on your time in the Land Army?
JS: Yes. I wouldn’t want to go back to doing it.
DK: No.
JS: Because, well of course you’re younger then. You’ve got more up and go haven’t you? But it was hard work and it was pretty miserable at times when you were clogged up with mud and it was raining and you were feeling miserable and thinking what am I doing this for? But as they would say, ‘You’re helping to feed the nation.’
DK: Yeah. Do you think that was important then? The —
JS: Not at the time I didn’t [laughs]
DK: No. Do you think you became a better person? You learned something from it or [unclear]
JS: I suppose I must have done.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. And the fact that you were, because I only had one brother, I had no sisters.
DK: Right.
JS: So it was, you know I mean plenty of girlfriends but they, it’s not the same as having, living with somebody is it?
DK: Yeah.
JS: And —
DK: So after the Land Army then you went back home,
JS: Yes. To live at home.
DK: You lived with your parents.
JS: Yes.
DK: And did they notice a change with you at all do you think? Or —
JS: No. I don’t think so.
DK: So you sort of slipped back into that family life.
JS: Into what you were doing. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Well not like now. As soon as they start work they’ve got a place of their own haven’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JS: Well, then you more or less stayed at home until you got married. You couldn’t afford to have a place of your own anywhere.
DK: Ok then. Well, that’s, that’s marvellous. That’s been very interesting listening to you.
JS: Right.
DK: I’ll end the recording there but thank you very much.
JS: Ok.
DK: I’ll switch that off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joan Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ASmithJ180111
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:33:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Selby
Japan
Burma
Description
An account of the resource
Before the war Joan worked as a hairdresser. At 17 and a half she applied for the Land Army and was interviewed in her home town of Sheffield. Her first posting was to a farm in Fulbeck. She and about fourteen other girls stayed in a hostel with about six in a room. Their board and lodge were paid by the government and they earned about sixteen shillings a week. Some farmers did not think that girls could do the work of a man but eventually they appreciated how hard they worked. Joan remembered a group of Italian prisoners, who were hard working and courteous, working on the farm. There were also some conscientious objectors who Joan refused to work with as they were lazy and foul mouthed and there was a lot of resentment.
The girls started work at about 8.00 o’clock or half past, finishing at about 6.00. During the summer and harvest time they worked longer hours. They would mostly be weeding the fields and thinning out the crops or pulling fruit and vegetables. Joan enjoyed working with the pigs and spoke about the hard work at harvest time. After Fulbeck Joan was moved to Bourn near Selby, Yorkshire, where there was a Bomber Command station. The girls would be invited to the camp dances.
When Joan left the Land Army she went back into hairdressing until she got married. She met her husband, George, just after the war and they married two months later. George had been a navigator with 357 Squadron on B-24 flying Gurkhas from Burma to Japan. When he was demobbed, he worked as a surveyor and later volunteered at Duxford. Their daughter was in the Royal Air Force and married a flight engineer. Joan said that being in the Land Army had been hard work and miserable at times.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
14 OTU
1651 HCU
357 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
love and romance
navigator
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Riccall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1134/11663/PSmithS1801.1.jpg
f94dbb60395c90067e51aab4f5d2c80c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1134/11663/ASmithS180725.2.mp3
6e885283915121698b10221dcfa7e7f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Sydney
S Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sydney Smith (b.1934). She was a child during the Blitz and served as a nurse in the RAF post war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So I’ll, I’ll just introduce myself. So I’m David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs —
SS: Sydney.
DK: Sydney Smith at her home on the 25th of July 2018.
SS: Yeah.
DK: If I just put that down. Down there.
SS: That’s right.
DK: It’s that’ll pick you up. If I’m looking down —
SS: Yes.
DK: I’m just making sure it’s recording. Ok.
SS: If you look up behind me that’s a picture of me in the Air Force.
DK: Oh right. Can I take a closer look is that ok?
SS: Yes. Do.
[pause]
DK: Oh right. So, you’re a nurse there. And was this your husband then?
SS: Yes. That’s right. I had to leave the Air Force to get married.
DK: And, and was he a policeman?
SS: He was a policeman in the Metropolitan Police.
DK: Oh wow. So, lovely photos aren’t they?
SS: Yes. I think I would have stayed on had I not met my husband.
DK: Really?
SS: Yes.
DK: Was that, was that the thing? Once you got married you had to leave.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: The nursing profession.
SS: In those days, yes. You did.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I mean it went to the European court and then they said that you know females can be married.
DK: Right. Yeah. And I’ll just ask you then do you have reminiscences or remember much about the war itself?
SS: Oh yes.
DK: And can you just tell us a little about —
SS: I was five. I was five when war broke out and I lived a few miles from London. About eight or ten miles from London. And the Battle of Britain was fought over my head. And I saw a plane shot down and I saw people come down in parachutes. And it made such an impression on me that these young men were willing to sacrifice their lives for my future that when I grow up I’m going to do something for the Air Force. I didn’t know what. And then when I finished my nurse training I decided I would join the Air Force and do my bit for them.
DK: So, so what years then were you doing the nursing training?
SS: I was 1951 I started.
DK: ‘51.
SS: The nursing training.
DK: Right.
SS: And nineteen fifty — oh I can’t remember. ’56 I joined the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: And just going back to you remembering the war time do you remember anything after the Battle of Britain? Between then and the end of the war.
SS: Oh yes. I mean being a school child and —
DK: But were you evacuated then? Or —
SS: No. I wasn’t evacuated.
DK: No.
SS: Because I was going to be evacuated to America. I’ve actually got a newspaper cutting about that. And my mother was ill and couldn’t take me to the Centre where we were meant to be. And so I was going to go on the next boat and the ship I was on was torpedoed.
DK: Oh.
SS: And I think there were about seventy children drowned.
DK: No. Oh dear.
SS: And she wouldn’t let me go after that.
DK: No. No.
SS: So I never was evacuated.
DK: No.
SS: So I spent my schooldays, a lot of my schooldays when the air raids were on during the day was spent in the shelters which were long iron things. Iron shelters with and because they rusted, the sides and were covered with earth.
DK: Earth. Yeah.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And did you have those in your school then?
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: In my school.
DK: And can you remember which schools you attended?
SS: Yes. I attended Byron Court School. The whole of my time at Byron Court School was at that, and that was in Wembley.
DK: In Wembley. Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So, so you’d have had a good view of the Battle of Britain then from Wembley.
SS: Oh yes. That’s why I said.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I remember the Battle of Britain especially.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But we, nights when the bombings and that sort of thing my mother would sit up with me and my brother and she, she said, ‘Don’t worry. Jesus will look after us.’ And he always did. And that’s what I remember. But my parents they first of all got an Anderson shelter. But Wembley has got a very high water table.
DK: Right.
SS: So it was always half full of water.
DK: Yeah.
SS: So my stepfather and my step sister used to go down in the shelter but my mother said, ‘No. We’ll be alright.’
DK: And can you remember the damage in the area? The bombings.
SS: Oh yes. I can remember those. I remember going out with my mother once with the baby in the pram with a big baby gas mask.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And strapped to the pram. And me with my, wearing my gas mask on the [unclear] and it was pouring with rain and there was an air raid. Daylight air raid. And they were dropping incendiary bombs all around. And every time we heard something come, you know the babies pram hood was up and my mother and I crouched by the pram and just hoped for the best. But we got through.
DK: So how many was in your family then? There was —
SS: Well, there was my father died when I was a baby.
DK: Right.
SS: So there was my stepfather and my, I had a step sister. I had a step brother in the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: He was already in the Air Force before the war started.
DK: So your step brother was quite a little bit older than you then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: That’s right. Yes. He was older than my mother too.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes. So anyhow my, no my stepbrother was fourteen years older than me.
DK: Right.
SS: My step sister was four years older.
DK: Right.
SS: And then they had two children and they were wartime babies.
DK: Right. Right.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And what did your step brother do in the Air Force? Do you know what he was?
SS: No. My stepbrother.
DK: Yes. Your step brother. What did your step brother do in the Air Force?
SS: He was ground crew.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes. But he did occasionally go up with, as a gunner.
DK: Right.
SS: In the planes. But he was in Aden quite a bit.
DK: Right.
SS: And he brought, he came home on leave and brought a banana and it was at the bottom of his kit bag and it was black. But we shared it between the five of us.
DK: So was that the first time you’d seen a banana?
SS: Well, since I was a little toddler.
DK: Yeah. So do you remember the, I mean you were very young at the time but were you, can you remember being scared or was it a real excitement?
SS: Oh, the first, the first time there was an air raid was near Christmas time and the sound of the ack ack guns it frightened me.
DK: Yeah.
SS: It really did frighten me.
DK: And that’s some, that fear you can still remember.
SS: Oh, I can. Yes.
DK: So did, did you see aircraft actually shot down?
SS: I did.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I saw one shot down. Actually shot down. Coming down the —
DK: Coming down.
SS: And I used to have nightmares afterwards.
DK: Really.
SS: And I said to my mother, ‘Did I see an aircraft shot down?’ She said, ‘Yes. You did.’ And I did see parachutists come out of a plane. But I didn’t see, actually see the plane come down.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And as children we used to collect all, you could go around after the runway and look at the bomb damage and that sort of thing. All these houses. These houses, and all exposed. You know all their private things exposed and all that sort of thing. And we used to collect shrapnel.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh, you know. Big. Especially the boys used to collect shrapnel.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the bigger collection the better. And all the drawings of course were planes dropping bombs.
DK: Really?
SS: Yes. That’s all the drawings the children did.
DK: So it was having quite an impression on them as children.
SS: Oh. Oh it was.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had no care or anything like that. No counselling.
DK: No.
SS: No.
DK: That’s, that’s a more recent thing isn’t it?
SS: It is, isn’t it? Yeah. No. We were meant to get on with it.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And cod liver oil and orange juice. That used to keep us going. Cod liver oil was horrible.
DK: So you can remember the rationing then?
SS: Oh, I can.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh yes. And how, when anybody was getting get married we all sort of put all our points together to make a wedding feast and that sort of thing. When my birthday parties my mother used to get some plaster of Paris or whatever and ice a cake tin. And we saved up our sweet ration, put it under the cake tin and the iced cake tin was my birthday cake.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes. And the school lessons were sometimes in the shelters and —
DK: So you can, so it was quite a big shelter.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: In the school grounds then.
SS: It took two classes.
DK: Right.
SS: So there must have been about sixty or so children in.
DK: So an air raid could have been going on and you were still having your lessons.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: In the air raid shelter.
SS: Oh yes. And if there was an air raid warning during school time they used to ring the bell six times.
DK: Right.
SS: And if it rung six times. Beep. Beep. Beep. That was meant we had to line up at the door and then walk down. No running. No running. No talking. Into the air raid shelter. And one class would be one side.
DK: Right.
SS: Or one half of the shelter. And the other class would be in the other half.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the teachers at the door.
DK: So after the bombing of London and the Battle of Britain do you remember much about the war after that period?
SS: Oh yes. I mean, it was, it was my, our life. I mean it was just growing up.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And our life. We accepted it as war.
DK: Yeah.
SS: We didn’t, we didn’t know why but —
DK: Can you recall seeing our planes flying out to Germany?
SS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Lots of them. And we used to be aircraft recognition. I was quite good at it then.
DK: Yes.
SS: But I couldn’t remember now.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But oh, the Spit, or the bombers going over.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the Spit, and the Spitfires, you know.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Or whatever accompanied. The Hurricanes or whatever accompanying them out anyhow. I don’t know how they went but —
DK: And was it quite a sight to see then?
SS: Oh was it? Was it, yes.
DK: The planes going over.
SS: Yes. Well, hundreds of them just going over and over and over and I thought oh, you know, those men.
DK: So, and can you remember the war ending and how you felt about that? I know you’d have only been a child but —
SS: That was wonderful because we had street shelters in those days. They built these street shelters. My mother wouldn’t go in to the them.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But, and I wasn’t, and all the children were most of the children anyhow used to love to go up lamp posts and on to the top of the shelters. I wasn’t allowed to. But VE Day. I, well first of all let’s do the landing.
DK: The D-Day.
SS: At D-Day.
DK: D-Day. Yes. I’m jumping ahead a bit, aren’t I?
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I came home. We used to come home for lunch you see.
DK: Right.
SS: School dinners were only just coming in and we used to have to eat them in the classroom if we, so I came home to dinner and walked home. And my mother came and greeted me at the door. She said, ‘We’ve landed in France. We’ve landed in France.’
DK: Yeah.
SS: VE day. She was so pleased. So excited about it.
DK: So how would she have known? Would she have heard that on the radio then?
SS: She heard it on the radio.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes. And then VJ Day. Well, we sort of knew it was coming. We knew it was coming but we didn’t know when.
DK: And after D-Day do you remember the Doodlebugs? And the —
SS: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the V-1s.
DK: V-2s.
SS: V-2s
DK: Yeah. Rockets.
SS: My mother reckoned she saw a V-2. She was opening the curtains in the morning and she saw this thing come down like that. Ever so fast and then this loud bang.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And she reckoned she saw it.
DK: She saw it. Yeah. And do you remember the Doodlebugs as well?
SS: Oh, do I? Yeah.
DK: The noise they made.
SS: Frightening. That was frightening.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Because when it stopped you didn’t know where it was going to land.
DK: And did any land near to your house at all?
SS: Not to my house. No.
DK: Right.
SS: But over the railway. There was a railway line in between. Over the railway line there was. And oh that silence. Oh. We were so frightened. It was the silence that really frightened us. It wasn’t the Doodlebug. The noise of the Doodlebug.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: It was really frightening.
DK: Just waiting for the explosion.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yeah. So VJ Day was a wonderful day. It really was.
DK: Or VE Day.
SS: VE Day. Yeah.
DK: VE Day. Yeah. Yeah.
SS: VE Day. And I remember VJ Day too.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
SS: Well, VE Day I was allowed on top of the shelter. My mother let me go up. And we, the children were allowed to stay up and play and then the next day all the ration points were collected and then we, we had them all and we had the street party in our street.
DK: Right. Yeah.
SS: And all that sort of thing. And it was really, really exciting.
DK: And can —
SS: And my step sister, she was then seventeen. She went up to London to join in all the celebrations.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And she fell pregnant.
DK: Oh [laugh] oh dear. Whoops.
SS: So there was a shot gun marriage later on.
DK: Right. [laughs] Ok. Ok. These things happen.
SS: They do. Yes.
DK: Obviously celebrating too much.
SS: But as a child I would go out to play in the summer holidays and things like that and nobody worried about me. And we’d all come home to dinner and I mean the Americans and everything but we didn’t worry about strange men or anything like that.
DK: No.
SS: It never occurred to anybody.
DK: So even though there was this potential danger as a child of bombs and everything you did have more —
SS: Yes. Well, if there was an air raid we’d run home.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And that’s it.
DK: But despite that you think you had more freedoms then.
SS: Oh, we had more freedom, yes. Well, there wasn’t, no cars on the road hardly or anything like that because petrol was rationed.
DK: Yeah. So do you remember the Americans then?
SS: Oh yes. I remember the Yanks.
DK: And what did you think of them?
SS: Oh, well they were over here.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes, and yes if you got friendly with a Yank you could get chewing gum and my step sister got nylons and things like that.
DK: Right.
SS: That’s how, I think that’s how she got pregnant.
DK: [laughs] Was he an American then, was he? Or —
SS: I think so, yes.
DK: Yeah. Right. Ok.
SS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. So, so the wars ended then and how old would you have been in 1945?
SS: Ten.
DK: Ten. Ok.
SS: Ten going on, just going on to eleven.
DK: Right. So, you’ve, you’ve experienced and you say that that then drove you then to the nursing side of things. Is that what you wanted to do?
SS: Yes. With the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I was going to do something for the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: When I grew up.
DK: Right.
SS: And I carried that all the way through my childhood, adolescence and that sort of thing.
DK: So you qualified as a nurse first.
SS: I qualified as a nurse.
DK: Yeah. So how many years did that take?
SS: Well, that took, well I did two years orthopaedic nursing.
DK: Right.
SS: And I was an orthopaedic trained nurse. And then I went and did two years general training. But I didn’t do the midwifery part of it.
DK: Right.
SS: I joined the Air Force. I thought I’d join the Air Force.
DK: And your training. Was that under the NHS?
SS: Yes.
DK: So you’d have been one of the very early nurses.
SS: Yes.
DK: In the NHS then.
SS: Yes.
DK: So what year are we talking about now? Roughly.
SS: We’re talking of ‘51 I joined the nursing.
DK: 1951. So, not, not —
SS: As a nurse. As —
DK: Not long after. Not long after the —
SS: That’s when I did my training. Started my training.
DK: Right.
SS: ’51.
DK: And do you, you joined the Air Force in nineteen fifty —
SS: ’56.
DK: ’56. Right. And how many years were you in the Air Force then?
SS: Four years. Four years short term commission.
DK: Right. So can you just say a little bit about what you did as a nurse in the Air Force then?
SS: Yes, well —
DK: What your duties were.
SS: Well, first of all I went to Halton. Oh, it was a lovely place Halton then. It was countryside and it was lovely. And there we learned the basics of the Air Force. We learned how to march. That was a laugh to see. The poor flight sergeant trying to teach us how to march. And then, then on the wards we, the matron was [pause] I can’t remember her name now. Sorry. I can’t remember them. I’m not good at remembering now.
DK: Would her name be down in your recollection there?
SS: No. Not the names. No.
DK: No. No.
SS: No. Because you see since I’ve come here I’ve had sepsis and it affected my memory.
DK: Ok.
SS: So it is a shame really.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But it wasn’t.
DK: What was, what was the matron like then? Were they quite stern ladies?
SS: Yes. Well, they were group. Group officers.
DK: Right.
SS: And they were. They were quite nice. It was the CO’s inspections that I remember especially.
DK: So you actually held a rank in the RAF.
SS: I did. I was, I was a flying officer.
DK: Flying officer. Right. Ok.
SS: Yes.
DK: And, and were all the nurses flying officers then?
SS: Those that joined. But further then you became a flight officer.
DK: Right.
SS: And then you became a group officer.
DK: Right.
SS: And now it’s Group captain. You see.
DK: Because presumably then was it the Women’s Royal Air Force then or the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force?
SS: Princess Mary’s Royal Air Force Nursing Service.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok. So, it’s like slightly different.
SS: The PMRAFNS.
DK: Right.
SS: And anyhow, Halton was lovely where we did our basic training. And then I was posted to Nocton Hall. Nocton Hall was lovely. It had been a Royal, an American Air Force base hospital.
DK: Right.
SS: And it was all hutted wards and things like that.
DK: Right.
SS: And it was, Nocton Hall I did enjoy. At Nocton Hall I used to nurse. And one of the patients I nursed was Bobby Moore.
DK: Oh right.
SS: He was SAC Bobby Moore.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Robert Moore. And he’d hurt his knee playing football.
DK: Oh dear. It didn’t end his career though, did it?
SS: No. It didn’t, did it? [laughs] No.
DK: So do you remember much about him then do you?
SS: Not an awful lot.
DK: No.
SS: Except he was a very nice cheerful chappie.
DK: Yeah.
SS: In fact it was great fun nursing with the Air Force because they were all young men you see.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And they were all fit apart from knees or strains or something.
DK: Did you deal with any injured aircrew at all?
SS: Oh, yes. Yes.
DK: Do you know what they had?
SS: And one man he baled out at, I don’t know at a thousand feet. Something. More. And his parachute didn’t open. And he was alive with practically every bone broken.
DK: Oh,
SS: But he died soon after admission.
DK: Oh dear.
SS: Fancy getting [pause] it was awful.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And but mostly it was either flu or something. We had the bad flu epidemic when I was at Nocton Hall.
DK: Right.
SS: It was a very bad one. And we had one young man. Airman. He was flown in from Scotland to us and they tried to keep him alive and I was on night duty and his wife was on the way with, and she’d got a two year old and he died ten minutes before she arrived.
DK: Oh dear. Yeah.
SS: Yes. That sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But mostly I mean we, I nursed some Australians. ANZACs and things like that.
DK: Did, did you get posted abroad at all?
SS: Yes. Then after Nocton Hall. Oh, I must tell you about the fire escape because Nocton Hall has burned down, hasn’t it?
DK: Right ok.
SS: It has.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: And it was a lovely. We were in the actual hall which Ann Boleyn apparently had had and we shared rooms and there was just one big main staircase so fire escapes. And the fire escape that I should have had would have been in the bathroom with a rope. I had to let myself down on a rope [laughs] so I’m glad about that. I must have a drink.
DK: So you never had to use it then.
SS: No.
DK: So did you get on well with your fellow nurses then? Was it —
SS: Oh yes.
DK: Was there a lot of comeraderie?
SS: Yes. And the officers because we messed with the officers but we had our own separate quarters.
DK: Right. And what did you do in your time off? Where did you sort of socialise and —
SS: Oh yes. That sort of thing. Yes.
DK: Where did you go in your time off?
SS: Well, I mean we used to go to the, officers used to take us to Cranwell for certain events and things like that, or we went to Glyndebourne.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh, you know it was very nice. I was once the library officer.
DK: Right.
SS: I think it was Nocton Hall that I was at and I was library, in charge of the library in the mess and I introduced them to Ian Fleming.
DK: Oh yes.
SS: And 007.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: They were just coming out. Those books.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And they were very, I really enjoyed that.
DK: So about this time then you you’ve met your husband then.
SS: No. No.
DK: Oh.
SS: I didn’t meet him until I was in Germany.
DK: Ah right. Can you say a little about what happened while you were in Germany then?
SS: Yes. Well, we went over on a troop ship to the continent and the troop ship was fogbound and so it didn’t dock. We were supposed to have breakfast on the train you see. So lunchtime came and we hadn’t had anything to eat. And so they had to open the emergency rations.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had hardtack and bully beef. And then it was later on in the afternoon when it finally had docked.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember where you docked now then?
SS: Yeah. Hook of Holland.
DK: Right. Ok. And where abouts were you based in Germany?
SS: Wegberg. I don’t know if you, well first of all I went to Rostrup.
DK: Right.
SS: Rostrup was, I don’t know it seemed to be a new hospital to me. But we had to close it, and all the things that couldn’t be transported were bulldozed.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And there was Germany bombed to the ground. In need of things.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And surgical things and all that sort of things and houses.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: So all the married quarters were bulldozed.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But because they were our, still our enemy.
DK: Yeah.
SS: We did —
DK: Did, did you get to meet many Germans while you were out there?
SS: Yes.
DK: And —
SS: And German, we used to have German civilian patients sometimes.
DK: And what were your feelings then because you’d not long gone through a war and now your meeting them presumably for the first time. Was there any bitterness? Or —
SS: Not with us nurses.
DK: No.
SS: No.
DK: Did you feel any bitterness towards them at all or —
SS: No.
DK: No.
SS: We used to think it was most unfair because we were still on ration and there were these fat Deutsch fraus in these [laughs] in these cake shops eating cake with cream on. Cream cakes with extra cream on.
DK: So they didn’t have any rationing then? Or —
SS: Didn’t seem to have. I don’t know whether they had but [laughs]
DK: So the only bitterness was the fact they were getting cake and you weren’t [laughs]
SS: No [laughs]
DK: Ok.
SS: [laughs] Yes.
DK: So —
SS: But it was the time then of the Berlin blockade.
DK: Right.
SS: They were, I mean they were even by air transporting coal to Germans.
DK: Yeah.
SS: The West Germans.
DK: Did you get to Berlin at all? Or —
SS: Yes. I did.
DK: Right. So —
SS: Once. I went with a friend in her car.
DK: Right.
SS: We had to get special. All sorts of special permissions and things like that.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had to drive through West, East Berlin to —
DK: Yeah. East Germany.
SS: East Germany.
DK: Yeah.
SS: To get to Berlin.
DK: Yeah. The Soviet area.
SS: Without stopping.
DK: Oh right.
SS: If we’d stopped we would have been arrested.
DK: Right.
SS: So we had to go without stopping. And when we got there it was wintertime and there was forty, forty degrees of frost one day and everything was frozen.
DK: Yeah. So what was Berlin like in the, this would be the mid-1950s, wasn’t it?
SS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Was it, was it being rebuilt then or —
SS: Oh yeah.
DK: Was there still a lot of damage there or —
SS: There was quite a bit of damage.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But we, I didn’t go on the U-bahn trains because I hadn’t got a pass into, behind the Berlin Wall.
DK: Right. Yeah.
SS: So we had to go, you know stay our side of it.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
SS: Yes.
DK: So how long were you in Germany for then?
SS: Two years.
DK: Right.
SS: And then I went. Wegberg was lovely because it was from, from Rostrup we went to Wegberg. And Wegberg was lovely because it was near the Second Tactical Air Force Headquarters.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And the Americans.
DK: Yeah.
SS: You know what Americans are like. They had a cinema. They had a swimming pool.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And they had all sorts of dos and that sort of thing which we were allowed to go to.
DK: Right.
SS: I was allowed to swim in the swimming pool and that’s where I got that little trophy. That little one on the side there [pause] That little dish. No.
DK: Oh that. Oh that one. Sorry.
SS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh. Oh right. So it’s RAF Germany 1959. Women’s Royal Air Force Relay.
SS: Yes. And I did the backstroke. And when I got back to the mess —
DK: That is a swimming, swimming trophy then.
SS: Yes. All these WAAF. Strapping WAAFs we were and three of us nurses, and we got that.
DK: So just for the recording then it’s a —
SS: Yes.
DK: Brass swimming trophy.
SS: Yes.
DK: And it’s got —
SS: Yes.
DK: The crest of the Second Tactical Air Force on it.
SS: Yes. Of course they were this —
DK: 1959.
SS: The nurses and that were listening on the radio. On the radio. Local radio. Their radio. RAF radio about this swimming gala you know. And when I got back over my door in the mess was this lavatory paper and it said, ‘Backstroke Syd, Wonder kid.’ [laughs] That was the sort of friendship we had, you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And at this point you’d met your husband then have you or —
SS: Yes. He was corresponding with me.
DK: Right. Ok. And he was in the police force at this time.
SS: Yes, that’s right. Yes.
DK: So, he was in the Metropolitan Police.
SS: Yes. He was. Yes. And you see, my brother, my young brother he was a policeman. He was a training policeman and his, this sergeant, he said you know he hadn’t got a girlfriend. He pricked up his ears and he said, ‘Well, my sister’s in Germany. She said she’d like a penfriend. Would you be a friend? A pen friend.’ And that’s how we got. He started writing and then, and we corresponded and when I came home on leave he said, you know we became quite good friends. I went back again and [pause] yes. He proposed before I went back.
DK: Right. Ok.
SS: He said would I marry him? And I said, ‘Well, I’ll see.’ I couldn’t make up my mind because I didn’t really want to leave the Air Force.
DK: No.
SS: But —
DK: And before I put the recording on your said that once you married you had to leave the Air Force then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah
SS: That was the end of my time in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah. So, so you had to make a choice then of whether you got married.
SS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Or stayed in the Air Force.
SS: Yes.
DK: And as you say you would have like to stayed in the Air Force then.
SS: Oh yes. I would. Yes.
DK: That’s —
SS: Yeah.
DK: Very unfortunate. That wouldn’t happen now though would it?
SS: Oh, no. We had to go to the European Court for them to get it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. No. It seems, seems —
SS: And it, I walked, I go to the Aircrew Association because —
DK: Right.
SS: I did one casevac. I did a casevac.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
SS: Yes. It was a child and he’d had his tonsils out but he was still complaining of pain and his tonsils regrew. He had cancer of the tonsils.
DK: Oh.
SS: And we flew him out.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we went in an Anson.
DK: Right.
SS: And there was thunderstorms all over Europe and we went up and it was lovely to go up in the plane and see these lovely clouds and that sort of thing all shining.
DK: So, he was, he was evacuated out of Germany was he?
SS: Yes.
DK: And where did you fly to then?
SS: We fly to, oh we fly to Northolt.
DK: Oh, ok. So he was evacuated.
SS: Yes. We went to a London hospital.
DK: Right.
SS: Yeah.
DK: So he was German was he? The child.
SS: No. No. The child was families.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So he was a British child in Wegberg.
SS: Yes
DK: A service family then.
SS: Yes.
DK: And you flew in an Anson to Northolt.
SS: Yes.
DK: Oh right. Was that the only emergency flight you had to do?
SS: I did one other but that was only a short flight.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So in the Air Force then did you get much opportunity to actually fly apart from those two?
SS: No. I didn’t.
DK: No.
SS: No. No. No. So, but I did enjoy it in the Air Force.
DK: So looking back then did you stay in touch with some of your nurse colleagues?
SS: I did for a time.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But I mean over the years.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Sixty, well nearly sixty years ago.
DK: And how do you look back on your time in the Air Force?
SS: Oh, I loved it.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I loved it. And do you know occasionally I do dream and I dream that I’ve been called back again but I haven’t got my uniform because I gave my unform to the Hendon Museum.
DK: Oh. Ok.
SS: The museum. They hadn’t got a nurses uniform.
DK: Oh right.
SS: So, I gave them my uniform.
DK: Do you know if it’s on display there at all?
SS: It was on display. I saw it years ago.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Whether it’s still there or not.
DK: Well, the next time I’m there I’ll see if it’s, if it’s there.
SS: Yes. Well, they’ve still got it anyhow.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes.
DK: Ok then. That’s marvellous. Thanks for your time. As we got to the end of your Air Force career I think that’s probably the best time.
SS: Yes.
DK: To stop the recording if that’s ok. But thanks very much for that. That’s been very interesting.
SS: Well, it was interesting —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sydney Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASmithS180725, PSmithS1801
Format
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00:33:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hoek van Holland
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney’s father died when she was a baby. Her mother remarried and had another daughter and son. The son became ground crew in the Royal Air Force.
Sydney lived a few miles from London and attended Byron Court School in Webley. She was five when war broke out and eleven when it ended. She remembered the Battle of Britain and hundreds of aircraft taking off for Germany. A lot of Sydney’s school days were spent in the air raid shelters. From an early age she decided she wanted to work for the Air Force. Sydney started her nursing training in 1951 with the National Health Service and in 1956 she joined the Air Force for four years short commission. She recollects her posts at RAF Hospital Nocton Hall, Hook of Holland and then in Germany. When Sydney married she had to leave the Air Force, which she loved. Her husband worked for the Metropolitan Police. She donated her nurse’s uniform to Hendon museum.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1951
1956
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Anson
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
incendiary device
love and romance
RAF Halton
RAF hospital Nocton Hall
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1135/11674/PSnookT1801.2.jpg
137dd66e818f1d402186e607d2a8fd6b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1135/11674/ASnookT180215.1.mp3
9ff814d0899d0cb6cb145b2b6d6a72b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Snook, Tony
Tony Snook
T Snook
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Tony Snook (b. 1925, 1813151 Royal Air Force) as well as his service release book and photographs of his crew. He flew operations as an air gunner with 115 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Snook, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre.
TS: Yeah.
DK: Interviewing Tony Snook on the 14th of February 2018 at his home. Right. Ok. So, I’ll just put that, if I just put that there.
TS: Yes. Yes.
DK: I’ll, I’ll keep looking down to make sure it’s still, still working.
TS: Yes.
DK: Ok. So can I first of all ask you what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
TS: School.
DK: Ah.
TS: Well I left school. I was at Maidstone Grammar School. I left school in 1942.
DK: Right.
TS: When I, that was sixteen and, no. Seventeen. That’s right. And you were allowed to join the Air Force for aircrew at seventeen, at eight, seventeen and a quarter and then they kept you waiting for a year until eighteen. Then they called you up to Regent’s Park and you was, but you were actually sworn in.
DK: Right.
TS: And you got a number there. That, in, in 1942. That’s right. And then I went in in 1943.
DK: Right. Was, was the Air Force something you chose then? Is it something you wanted to do as opposed to —
TS: Well, I want to because I joined the, I went, the ATC. The school had an ATC squadron and I rose up and became a sergeant in the ATC and we used to go to camps. To West Malling just outside Maidstone which was a night fighter station which had Beaufighters and Defiants and Havocs. That was Douglas Boston with a searchlight in the nose.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Which used to illuminate supposedly and the Defiants flew alongside and shot it down. It didn’t often happen unfortunately. But anyway we used to go there and, that’s right 1940 I was fifteen and we were there and we were sent out to sweep up around the dispersals and things like that, you know. Just to, make do with us really. And the corporal, the engine, the engine fitter said, ‘Have you ever flown?’ I said, ‘I’m fifteen years old. How could I fly during the war?’ He said, ‘We’ll see what we can do.’ So anyway, the pilot came along to the Beaufighter. He was a flying officer then and he said, ‘Do you want a trip lad?’ So I said, ‘I’d love one.’ So he took me up in this Beaufighter. I stood in the well behind the pilot holding on to his seat. Well, it was still wartime. How would, how would health and environment think about that nowadays? [laughs]
DK: No health and safety.
TS: Yes. Anyway, that, but that was that but you know I was interested in aeroplanes anyway naturally. But that was wonderful I thought.
DK: So what did you think of your first flight then when you were —
TS: Wonderful.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Because I could see. Just there was the chap’s head. And he was a Flight Officer Widdows who died about twelve years ago.
DK: Right.
TS: His, because I look at the Telegraph every day to see if I’m in it [laughs] But he was in there. He lived ‘til a hundred as an air commodore.
DK: Oh right.
TS: And his wife was about five years ago she lived till a hundred and she died about five years. So both of them lived ‘til a hundred.
DK: A hundred. Yeah and that was at —
TS: And —
DK: Sorry. Go on.
TS: Well, I mean then I was in. Because after that, we had actually what I first joined at the school was what they called the OTC. Officer Training Corps which was Army naturally.
DK: Right.
TS: And then I transferred to the ATC when it started. And so therefore at seventeen and a quarter I went into the Recruiting Office and applied to join for aircrew and they said alright. We went up to the house. Air Ministry house in London.
DK: Right.
TS: What was it called?
DK: Is it Ad Astra house is it?
TS: Ad Astra house.
DK: Ad Astra House. Yeah. Yeah.
TS: Something like that.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And you were given a medical and a small education test. And then you were sworn in and given a number. And you also were given a little silver badge which you put in the lapel of your jacket to say that, because you know people used to think oh, he looks a hairy, he’s not in the Service. We used to wear this little badge.
DK: Oh right.
TS: A little silver badge.
DK: Is that to stop people perhaps turning on you then and —
TS: Well, it might be. I mean it didn’t often happen —
DK: No.
TS: Very often.
DK: No.
TS: I mean surely they could see that the lad was probably not old enough to be in the air anyway. And I went in finally in November 1943.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes.
DK: So where was your first posting to then? In November 1943.
TS: ITW at Newquay.
DK: Right.
TS: Because I went in as PNB.
DK: Right.
TS: And I passed through ITW. Then they sent us to Theale near Reading.
DK: So that’s the PNB. Pilot, navigator —
TS: Bomber.
DK: Bomb aimer.
TS: That’s right. Yes. Yes.
DK: For the recording.
TS: And they sent us to Theale, outside Reading which was an EFTS. Elementary Flying Training School.
DK: Right.
TS: Which had Tiger Moths. And we did twelve hours there and I soloed after seven and a half and then completed the twelve. And then they had, this was just after the invasion, they didn’t lose as many as they expected. And there were rumours going around that so many people were [pause] if you were chosen as a pilot or that you wouldn’t. You know you probably might be made redundant. And this did happen a lot. The Air Force weren’t very kind at times, you know.
DK: No. No.
TS: No. Because naturally if we were PNB most of us that’s what we wanted to be. A pilot.
DK: Yeah.
TS: So anyway they thought I’d make a better air gunner [laughs]
DK: Was that a reflection on how you flew then or —
TS: No, because I got a good report from my instructor.
DK: Oh right.
TS: About flying. I mean after I soloed in seven and a half hours.
DK: Right.
TS: Which wasn’t bad.
DK: So it’s literally because they thought they wouldn’t need so many pilots then.
TS: Well, going forward when we went to Heavy Con Unit, flew Lancasters then we obtained an engineer.
DK: Right.
TS: And who was it? A pilot who they didn’t want. And you’ll see it on his, on the photo there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Oh right.
TS: With his pilot’s wings. And he was the engineer. They sent them to St Athans and gave them an engineer’s course. And there were lots of them so really I suppose that I was lucky because I kept flying because I met people who were with, started with me earlier on and they were doing one might say menial jobs about. And then I went to, they sent me to Stormy Down in South Wales to start the gunnery course. We didn’t used to fly from Stormy Down. We flew from an aerodrome nearer to Cardiff. Right on the coast. Which is now Cardiff International Airport I think and I can’t remember the name of it. It belonged [pause] I saw it began with P. But anyway we flew in Ansons there with the gunnery exercises and then after we’d done that we went back to Stormy Down and took the last exams and passed out and given our little brevets which that’s one there.
DK: Yeah. For the air gunner.
TS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So, was ,was the air gunnery something you took to quite well then?
TS: Oh yeah. I’m a very, I suppose really I’m very, I was service minded. I wish I’d stayed in. But nothing mattered to me. I did what, you know.
DK: Yeah.
TS: It was what I liked so —
DK: So what sort of targets did you used to have to shoot at?
TS: Drogues behind the mainly Miles oh [pause] Miles, anyway. It was —
DK: Miles Masters was it?
TS: Masters. Something. Yes. Yes.
DK: So, they’re pulling a drogue and you’re —
TS: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Shooting at that.
TS: And the, to differentiate which gunner had, had got hits on the target the actual project, the bullet itself was painted with a soft paint and that used to make a mark on the drogue.
DK: Right.
TS: When it went through.
DK: Oh right.
TS: So anyway, did that and then after that I was, and one or two other off from Stormy Down went to Upper Heyford. North of Oxford.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Which was an old permanent station. A lovely place it was. All brick built and a lovely place. But we didn’t fly from there because they were laying, they were putting runways down. I think they were getting, the Americans had it afterwards. Maybe you remember that F 111s —
DK: Yes.
TS: Used to fly from Upper Heyford.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
TS: Anyway, we went to Upper Heyford and we, it was a lovely place as I say. And on the second day there, we had a sort of induction on the first day we were all put in to a big room. So many pilots, so many engineers, so, not, sorry not engineers, so many navigators, bomb aimers, and wireless op and two gunners and they said, ‘We’ll be back in an hour. Sort yourself out in crews and make sure you like him because you’ve got to fly with him.’ And that’s what they told us. So in an hour’s time all the people got together. I mean another gunner that I said, ‘Come on, Ron. Let’s join up together.’ And who do we look? ‘He looks alright.’ So we went over with Johnny Rimer, an Australian. So, that’s how we crewed up.
DK: Do you think, do you think that worked well?
TS: Yes.
DK: Because you’re, it was a bit unusual. The military normally you’re told here, there and there.
TS: That’s right.
DK: But with this —
TS: Yes.
DK: You had to sort yourselves out. It was very unusual.
TS: It was unique. No doubt.
DK: Yeah.
TS: It’s never happened since. You don’t get anything in the service which you sort of pal up with somebody and say maybe, I don’t know, a tank. It might be with a tank. It might be. I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
TS: But that’s how they used to do it and it worked. Because I can never remember anybody saying, ‘Oh, you know, I don’t like you. I’m going to get out,’ because it didn’t happen. Everybody stayed the same. Yes.
DK: And is that where you found your pilot then was it?
TS: That’s right. Yes.
DK: And what was your pilot’s name?
TS: Johnny Rimer. John Rimer.
DK: John Rimer.
TS: An Australian.
DK: Right.
TS: From [pause] well, near Melbourne Australia. In fact we used to send, write and send Christmas cards right up ‘til the time he died which was two years ago.
DK: Oh right.
TS: Yeah.
DK: So there, can you remember the other crew you met up with there? Would have been your navigator?
TS: Yes. George, the navigator.
DK: George, the navigator.
TS: George, like, and he’s there anyway.
DK: Right.
TS: That’s George I think. There.
DK: Right.
TS: And he came from Warrington. But I can’t remember. It’s funny really I can’t remember his surname. I remember George.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Because that’s all it was to us. George.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And Eddie Harrison was the wireless operator.
DK: Right.
TS: Ron Stedman. Ron Stedman was the mid-upper gunner.
DK: The bomb aimer?
TS: The bomb aimer. The bomb aimer. Swettenham. Len Swettenham from London. The East End of London.
DK: Right.
TS: And he went out to Australia after the war and Johnny Rimer sponsored him.
DK: Oh right.
TS: He went out there. And that was the crew. And I’m the only one left of them. Everybody else has gone.
DK: So your flight engineer then. He came along later.
TS: Later. At Heavy Con Unit. Yes.
DK: Right.
TS: And he was the only one that was put into the crew.
DK: Yeah.
TS: He, you know, he didn’t say, look around and say, ‘I want to join them.’
DK: And can you remember his name?
TS: Yes [pause] Dick Tinsley. And they’re big farmers at Spalding.
DK: I’ve met him.
TS: Dick. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
TS: As a matter of fact I couldn’t remember his surname. He, funnily enough he was a bit the odd man out. He wasn’t very much of a beer drinker which we all were.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And I was in, I was invited to East Kirkby.
DK: Yeah.
TS: To the Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
TS: In Lincolnshire. And my friend at the Golf Club is one of the, I think he’s one of the trustees. Paul [Mutitt]
DK: Oh right.
TS: He leant me a magazine and in the magazine was a reunion in Holland for the Manna trips.
DK: Right.
TS: And there was Dick Tinsley with a frame, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: To help walking. So obviously he wasn’t very good on his pins. But whether he’s still there or not I don’t know.
DK: Well, I saw him. I interviewed him for the IBCC on the 4th of June 2015. So he was still alive then.
TS: Yes. 2015 was when this photo was taken.
DK: Oh, ok.
TS: When they all did the trip to Holland.
DK: Because rather oddly I actually live nearby. I’ve since moved but I lived just up the road from where he was.
TS: Did you really?
DK: And I got to know his son. Also Richard Tinsley. And they, they knew the lady that my wife and I were renting a house off at the time.
TS: Oh yes. Yeah.
DK: So I went to see Dick Tinsley the senior and interviewed him then. And as I say it was 115 Squadron.
TS: Squadron. Yeah.
DK: And he said then he was a pilot, co-pilot. So he trained as a pilot.
TS: Yes.
DK: But as you say ended up as a flight engineer.
TS: They were never regarded as co-pilots.
DK: Yeah. Flight engineers.
TS: They were flight engineers.
DK: Yeah. That’s strange. Well, I think, I’m pretty sure he’s still alive.
TS: Is he?
DK: I haven’t heard anything to the contrary.
TS: No. No.
DK: Would you like me to find out or —
TS: Well, it’s a long time ago.
DK: Yeah. Well. I’ll ask anyway.
TS: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
DK: I’ll let you know.
TS: No. I’d be interested to know if he’s still alive.
DK: Yeah. I was still in touch with his son just a few months ago.
TS: Were you?
DK: I’ll speak to his son.
TS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Well if you take my phone number you can just give me a ring sometimes.
DK: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
TS: And tell me.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Anyway, where did we get to? Heavy Con Unit didn’t we?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: That’s right.
DK: And do you remember where the Heavy Conversion Unit was?
TS: Yes. Langar, outside Nottingham. And as a matter of fact there was a factory next door to the airfield which reconditioned Lancs which had been damaged and they brought them there and they repaired them. And we did the course on heavy, on to Lancasters there. And that included which we didn’t know, I mean from Upper Heyford we were always flying in Wellingtons. Hercules engine Wellingtons which I forget now which mark they were but anyway Wellingtons have Merlins and we always had Hercules Wellingtons. And of course we did lots of cross countries but nothing outside. When we got to Heavy Con Unit we had to fly longer cross country’s down into the middle of France and back. And on two of them we had engine fires.
DK: Right.
TS: On the port outer. We didn’t, I mean, it was dangerous yes but I mean the graviner put it out straightaway and we just flew the rest of the trip on three engines and feathered the props and —
DK: So, what, what did comparing the two what was it like flying in a Wellington? What were they like as aircraft?
TS: Well, it was flying. On the other hand of course in Wellingtons there was only one turret so one of us used to go in the turret and one of us used to sit by the pilot because it had a, although the pilot’s sitting on the left hand side always and there was a seat. Some of them even had dual control. They used to sit there for the cross country. And another thing you used to go down and look through the astrodome and things like that.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So you got to the Heavy Conversion Unit then.
TS: Yes.
DK: Was that the first time you saw the Lancaster?
TS: Yes. Yes, it was.
DK: And what was your impressions when you saw that?
TS: Well, we reckoned it was a wonderful aeroplane anyway [laughs] and we, we had an instructor who, who was a bit wild and he used to throw it about. When he did a corkscrew you knew you were in a corkscrew. Yes. You know, he was the type of chap who if anything was in the fuselage through said, through you know you’d get parachutes coming up off the ground and going down like that and then flopping down. He was, he certainly used to throw it about. No doubt about it. But they put up with it.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember his name at all?
TS: No. He was, I honestly can’t remember his name.
DK: So the —
TS: Because after John, after John was passed out by him which wasn’t very long anyway we used to fly without an instructor after that on, you know cross countries, practice bombing trips with little twenty pound bombs and, but as I say these two cross countries from Langar down into mid-France and back again.
DK: Right. And you mentioned the corkscrew manoeuvre.
TS: Yes.
DK: What was that in aid of then?
TS: Well, you see you were sitting, sitting in the turret and you, ‘Skipper, enemy port quarter, five hundred yards.’ And you’d inform the skipper about it and then you would say, ‘He’d turn, ‘Prepare to corkscrew port.’ And then as he started to turn on his, the skipper would put, because you always turned into the attack. Turned in. Dived down. Turned to starboard. Back up. Over the top. Down and like that. That was a corkscrew.
DK: So it —
TS: And the rear gunner was expected to keep up a dialogue all the time that the attack was happening.
DK: Right. So, what, how would you describe your role as a rear gunner then? You’re sitting there and what is it you’re supposed to be doing for your —
TS: Well, you’re searching all the time. I mean not when, not when we were going to Italy bringing troops home. Things like that. But if you were anywhere near where there may be fighters you were searching. Going from port to starboard, port to starboard, port to starboard all the time. And looking up.
DK: So —
TS: It was better for you to look down in the main because —
DK: Yeah.
TS: The mid-upper looked up of course.
DK: Right. So you had to work as a team with the mid-upper gunner then.
TS: Yes. Yes. He didn’t, he would say anything if it was important but your dialogue was with the skipper.
DK: Right. So from the Heavy Conversion Unit then, you’ve then gone to 115 Squadron.
TS: That’s right. Witchford. Yes.
DK: At Witchford.
TS: Yes.
DK: So that was your first posting then.
TS: That was the posting. It was around about February 1945 anyway.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes. Yes.
DK: And, and you mentioned before, just before we put the tape on, the recorder on, the type of Lancasters they had there.
TS: I think they were Mark 1s when we first went there but they were gradually replacing them with Mark 3s.
DK: Right.
TS: They had had, in fact in my Lancaster, I’ve got a big book on the Lancaster and it does show 115 with Hercules. They are Mark 2s.
DK: Right.
TS: But funnily enough I mean the Hercules was a wonderful engine but the Lanc preferred Merlins.
DK: Merlins. Yeah.
TS: So they were reequipping them with Packard Merlins and paddle blades, you know.
DK: So by the time you got there then all the Mark 2 Lancasters had gone had they?
TS: Gone. That’s right. Yes. Yes.
DK: So how many operations did you then fly with 115 squadron?
TS: We flew five.
DK: Right.
TS: Three Manna trips. And there were two that won’t be recorded anywhere which I did.
DK: Right.
TS: And they won’t find anything about them.
DK: Right.
TS: No.
DK: So where were they to then?
TS: Well, they were just over somewhere.
DK: Oh ok. So that wasn’t with your crew then.
TS: No.
DK: No. Ok. So you did five altogether then.
TS: That’s right. Yes. Yes. Two nights. They were both to Kiel. And one to an oil refinery in the Ruhr. These were daylights. And one to, daylight to Bad Odesloe in North Germany and and the island in the North Sea [pause]
DK: Oh, Heligoland.
TS: Heligoland that’s right.
DK: Yeah.
TS: That was the last one.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes. Yeah. And coming back from it was a bit, it wasn’t amusing because the ground crew didn’t like it. Coming back from Bad Odesloe we used to fly in loose vics and after you know you got away gradually they broke up and we were formating with one. And just crossing the Dutch coast near Sylt and bang, bang, bang, bang three anti-aircraft burst right on our nose. A terrific clang and I said to the skipper, ‘I think we’ve been hit.’ Anyway, nothing seemed to be the matter but when we got down it had gone through the elsan [laughs] And the poor ground crew had to, I mean it hadn’t been emptied before the ground crew they had to clear this up. They weren’t pleased.
DK: Oh dear. So was that the only time you were hit by gunfire then or anti-aircraft fire?
TS: I think it was. That was the only time. I didn’t know of another time. No. No. No.
DK: No. You never saw any German fighters or anything like that.
TS: I did see one over Kiel.
DK: Right.
TS: And it was one of these. I think they used to call them lone wolfs. A FW190. And he was well above us and he dived down but some, he just went off. Kept going down. I could see him against the, where the, you know where the fires were down below. Going down. He just went down. It was an FW190 and I think they called them lone wolf.
DK: So the operations then, the bombing operations were all in daylight.
TS: No. The Kiels were night time.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Ok.
TS: Both. Yes.
DK: Right.
TS: Yeah. It was when the pocket battleship was hit by somebody from 115 Squadron actually.
DK: And was it your crew?
TS: And did a lot of damage to it.
DK: Was that your crew by any chance?
TS: No. It wasn’t. No.
DK: Oh [laughs]
TS: I remember very much the pilot who whose aircraft did do it and he was one might say, a bit of an uncouth sod [laughs] He used to eat peas off a knife. But he was a skipper and —
DK: Yeah.
TS: And I think it was his crew that did it. Yes.
DK: Right. So you mentioned earlier just before we put the recording on your pilot then went back to Australia.
TS: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So what happened to the rest of the crew then?
TS: Well, the mid-upper came with me to another crew and the rest just disappeared.
DK: Right.
TS: And I never heard. The only thing I did hear, Len Swettenhan, the bomb aimer he went on. He was taken off flying altogether and he told me that he went out to Singapore and he did quite well for himself because he was got put in charge of a stores down there [laughs] And I think he did quite well out of it. The pilot. Naturally Johnny went back and became a doctor in Australia.
DK: Right.
TS: Dick Tinsley, I’ve no idea what he did. He just disappeared.
DK: Yeah. I can tell you what he did.
TS: Well, he —
DK: He took up with farming so —
TS: Went to farming.
DK: Farming yes when I saw.
TS: Well, they were. When you’re going through you often see Tinsleys.
DK: Yeah.
TS: On those things in the field.
DK: When I saw him in the fields at the back they had about four hundred head of sheep.
TS: Oh really.
DK: So it was the sheep farming he were in to.
TS: Yes.
DK: And he did mention that post-war he just took up with the farm again.
TS: That’s right.
DK: That’s been passed on to his son now.
TS: That’s right. Yes. Yeah. Of course, they were, they were a big farmers weren’t they?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: And who else? Oh Eddie Harrison. He was just given menial jobs until he was demobbed. And then when he came from Liverpool. He went back to Liverpool and worked for the Liverpool Harbour Board. The Mersey Harbour Board. And funnily enough I didn’t hear ‘til later on through the Squadron Comrades letter that he’d moved to Oulton Broad. So I phoned him up and arranged to meet him at the pub at Gillingham. And we met there and had a drink and then he went off. And I’d gone away on holiday. When I came back I phoned up to make a [pause] and he’d died while I was away.
DK: Oh. That’s a shame.
TS: George. George was, I don’t, he was a lovely fella. A chap I always admired. Navigators. They used to sit at that desk with a chart and take us out there and back again not seeing anything. And really they were wonderful. How they could goodness only knows. They really were wonderful. George [pause] nobody, I asked the rest of the, you know the crew that like Johnny and Len Swettenham and Eddie if, because Eddie, George lived at Warrington which wasn’t very far from Liverpool. But he’d had nothing to do with him. No. No. He just disappeared. So that’s, and of course Ron Stedman, the mid-upper gunner, the last of the crew I’ll tell you in a minute. But he is not here anyway. But that was the, how the crew broke up.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And we went with a Flight Lieutenant Cantrell.
DK: And to which squadron did you go to after that?
TS: Oh, it was still 115.
DK: Oh, still in 115.
TS: Yes.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
TS: Yes.
DK: If I could just take you back a little bit you mentioned that you did three Manna.
TS: Manna trips.
DK: Manna trips.
TS: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So how did you feel about that? Were you —
TS: Wonderful. Wonderful. And one of the things that gave me great satisfaction, more than dropping bombs probably was when we were flying about five hundred feet and I looked down. There was an old gentleman with a black, a black Homburg walking along the dyke and he took his hat off and went like that. And I thought that’s wonderful. And funnily enough the other thing too with regard to Mannas that when we, when I went back to live in Kent at Bearsted there was a chap came and lived in the same road who’d been on the, he’d been in the army in Holland and he’d married a Dutch girl. And she was one of the people around Amsterdam Racecourse waiting for this food to be dropped. And you could see them all around and German soldiers all the way around.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Because [pause] I forget now where it is though I have read it that we started those Manna trips and we had no, no permission from Germany. They, although they’d been approached about it they hadn’t given anything. And I believe, I understand that another thing I’ve read is that because how it happened was that Prince Bernhard and Queen Julianna were living in London and they, through the Underground they learned how bad the Dutch were for food because the Germans had flooded their fields with salt water and things like that. And they approached Winston Churchill to ask if he could do anything. And that’s when he started. He gave the Air Force the order to do these Manna trips. And the Americans did it as well.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: And in fact there was a major major major something. He was a south African on the squadron who used to wear the South African khaki uniform and he was one of the people that helped to develop these panniers which they put in the bomb bays and filled with food.
DK: Right.
TS: And this lady, when she learned that I was one of them she was overjoyed.
DK: So you could —
TS: Yes.
DK: You could see the people waving to you [unclear]
TS: Yes. Yeah. They were all standing around it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: Because we dropped into Amsterdam Racecourse and the other one. The other big [pause] Amsterdam. What’s the other big city in the Netherlands?
DK: Rotterdam? Or —
TS: Rotterdam. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Yes. Yes. In fact, I think Rotterdam is now the big international airport isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
TS: But that’s where we dropped them. There. Yes.
DK: So what sort of height were you at then when you —
TS: Well, we used to fly over the Dutch coast at about five hundred feet.
DK: Right. And do you know what sort of foodstuffs you were taking?
TS: Well, potatoes. You know. Dehydrated potatoes. Things like that. And lots of tinned stuff.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Yes, all kind of things which you could drop which would, which would be you’d think you know would put up with being dropped.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And we always used to get our chocolate ration and things like that and throw them out. I used to throw them out the back [laughs]
DK: So with 115 then you’ve now moved to a different crew.
TS: Yes.
DK: And did you fly any more operations with the second crew then?
TS: No more operations. The war finished then you see.
DK: Right. Ok.
TS: Because Johnny, the war finished when Johnny was taken away.
DK: Right.
TS: It was three or four days after the war finished.
DK: Right. And I’ve got, just for the recording here I’ve got a picture of you and you crew and the Lancaster behind it. Can you came them all now? Who’s who?
TS: Yes. That’s Dick Tinsley.
DK: Dick Tinsley. Yeah.
TS: Yeah. That’s George the [pause] George the navigator. Eddie Harrison the w/op. John Rimer the skipper. Ron, now [pause] what was the bomb aimers name?
DK: Ok. So that’s the bomb aimer.
TS: Yes. And me.
DK: Oh right.
TS: And Ron Stedman the mid-upper.
DK: Ah. Yeah. And was that your Lancaster at the back there?
TS: No.
DK: No.
TS: No. I mean people say, ‘Oh, you did all those?’ ‘No. That was the Lancaster that did it not us.’ And they asked what, what we meant and there was bombs on for bombing trips.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And windmills for Manna trips.
DK: Oh right. Oh, the windmill’s a Manna trip.
TS: Yes.
DK: Oh ok. Yes. Dick, Dick Tinsley has got that photo.
TS: I don’t doubt it. Yes.
DK: [unclear]
TS: Because how it happened was when we were, when we knew Johnny was going we went down to the photographic section and got hold of a WAAF down there.
DK: Right.
TS: And we stood and took, she took that photo for us.
DK: Well, I’ll definitely speak to his son. As I say when I saw him a couple of years ago he, well as you say he was walking with a bit of difficulty but I’ll see if he’s still around.
TS: Yes.
DK: I’ll let you know.
TS: Yes. I would imagine that he must have had something to do, or you know goes over to East Kirkby to the, at times because he’s not very far away from there.
DK: No. No.
TS: But he might be so incapacitated now. I don’t know.
DK: I’ll have a word with his son.
TS: He’s probably about two years or more older than me anyway.
DK: Yeah. So the war’s come to an end then.
TS: Yes.
DK: What were your plans then? What were you going, intending to do?
TS: Well, I wasn’t intending. I wanted to stay flying. That’s all. Which we did.
DK: Right.
TS: And when the crew broke up and then of course some weeks after that they started these trips to Italy bringing troops home. We used to fly down there and bring twenty home at a time.
DK: Right.
TS: And of course there was no need for both of us to go and Ron wasn’t terribly keen so I used to go all the time. We did three of those. And I used to look after the soldiers on the way back and probably give them a cup of coffee if they had —
DK: Can you remember where you picked them up from?
TS: Yes. Bari.
DK: Right.
TS: On the east coast of Italy.
DK: Right. And how many did you have in the aircraft each time?
TS: Well, there was the, that’s right, five of us because the mid-upper never used to go. And twenty troops.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes. And we used to put the officers in the bomb bay at the front [laughs]
DK: So some of the, some of the soldiers presumably hadn’t seen England for some years.
TS: Oh, they’d been in the eighth army.
DK: Yeah.
TS: They hadn’t been home for four years or more.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Never seen. And I met one, I don’t know how I came to meet him actually but he hadn’t been home for four years and we took off from Bari in the morning and we dropped them at, we used to use two aerodromes. Either Glatton near Peterborough or Tibenham just over the other side of the 140. Tibenham there because they had customs facilities and we dropped him at Tibenham and he was home for tea.
DK: Wow.
TS: But of course, you know it took, it used to take a bit of time coming from Bari. It’s not like the jet age.
DK: Yeah.
TS: When you do it in a couple of hours. It used to take us five and a half hours or so to —
DK: So, you were going over the Alps presumably then were you?
TS: No. I’ll tell you another thing. We always flew down to Marseilles.
DK: Oh right.
TS: Straight and then across the north of Sardinia to Naples and then to Bari. And we weren’t allowed to take parachutes.
DK: Oh.
TS: Because it wouldn’t have looked very good if we’d had parachutes and the twenty troops didn’t.
DK: Didn’t. Oh, I see.
TS: And that was it. The only one who had a parachute was the skipper. And he had to sit on his of course. The first time we went down we got near Naples and of course they, well luckily there was no one within sight of us anyway although there were Lancasters behind us coming down. And we asked Johnny Cantrell, we’d like to circle around Vesuvius and have a look down the crater. And that’s what we did. We circled around, had a look down a crater and then on to Bari. And the last time that I went down there we stayed there. We went down on November the 30th 1945 and through bad weather in England they kept cancelling the trip. Day after [pause] So we got up to Christmas and we’re not going to get home for Christmas and they gave us the option of either going to a holiday. We were, by the way at that time we had flown from Bari over to Pomigliano outside Naples and that’s where we were, then we landed there. And there’s a picture in my Lancaster book. All the Lancs at Pomig’ and our aircraft is in there somewhere.
DK: Oh right.
TS: But anyway, we went there and they gave us the option of either going to Rome or a holiday resort down south of Naples. Well, we, we chose Rome. So they took us in a QL Bedford. Most uncomfortable. About five hours on the drive up to Rome and we spent three days at Christmas in Rome.
DK: Right.
TS: In a football stadium. That’s right. And they, we had a wonderful time there. A lovely Christmas dinner with an Italian tenor singing to us. And we came back on January the 3rd. And that is a bit of a sad time for me after that because when we got back, the second day after coming back the gunnery leader called me in and he said, ‘You’re going off to an instructor’s course. Gunnery instructor’s course.’ So I said, ‘Oh, alright then. Yes. And then I’ll be back.’ And he said, ‘No. You won’t be coming back.’ So I said, ‘Well, I don’t want to go then. So cancel it.’ He said, ‘You’re going and that’s all there is to it.’ So I went. I went over to Andreas on the Isle of Man first of all and I wrote to the, I wrote to the crew. Never had any reply. Then I wrote to another skipper who was a friend of Johnny’s and he told me that ten days after that they were all killed. And in, I don’t know whether it’s in that Lancaster book but in one Lancaster book I have it gave every, the registration number of every Lancaster that was built and what happened to it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: And on February the 3rd 1946 they were out on a cross country and it blew up over Red House Farm in, in, [pause] over, near Warwick anyway.
DK: Right.
TS: Yeah. Leamington Spa.
DK: Right.
TS: Yes. And they were all killed because, and do you know the only reason I got to know this because I went home on a weeks leave around about that time and I’d taken a pair of shoes home. I used to take my shoes home and have them resoled. And the little boot mender in the village said, ‘Tony. What are you? You’re not here.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Well, in the paper you were one of a crew that was killed.’ And my name was in there. How it had got in there I don’t know. But anyway that’s how I found out about it.
DK: Oh dear.
TS: And I tried to find out what happened. No, no one would say. No.
DK: And that was your pilot then.
TS: The pilot.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And then strangely enough when I left Andreas and I went to the Central Gunnery School at Leconfield —
DK: Yeah.
TS: And I passed through there and went and they said, ‘Would you like to come back, Tony?’ So, I said, ‘I would like to come back here,’ because they had nice cricket facilities and rugby and it was a nice place to be. An old peacetime drome. So I went back to Andreas and they called and I went back to Leconfield.
DK: Right.
TS: As an instructor at the Central Gunnery School. And going back from leave from there one, I used to go up from Kings Cross from Kent and there used to be probably a paper train where you could go in and sleep for the night. And then they’d go off about 5 o’clock in the morning back to Hull you see. And anyway, down the cab was Bill Quinn. The wireless operator. I said, ‘Bill.’ He said, ‘I know what you’re thinking, he said, ‘Do you know what happened? I had sinus trouble that morning and they wouldn’t let me fly.’ So somebody else took his place.
DK: And rather strangely your name was down as one of the crew then.
TS: That’s right. Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
TS: Yes.
DK: If, if you’ve still got the book has it got the serial number of the aircraft?
TS: Well, I don’t. No. I don’t think I, the book, this book I got with all the numbers in it I got from the Suffolk Library.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
TS: I don’t think mine has. I’ll get it out in a minute.
DK: Yeah.
TS: And just have a look at the back.
DK: You can’t remember.
TS: I don’t think it has. No. I can’t remember.
DK: No. No. You can’t.
TS: Numbers like that are so long.
DK: So it’s February.
TS: About February the 3rd it was.
DK: 1946.
TS: Yeah. It was the only Lanc that crashed around about that time.
DK: Yeah. I’ll have a look into that for you.
TS: As a matter of fact I thought that we were the last one or our, that aircraft was the last one that 115 lost. But some [pause] when I left Kent and come up to Norwich and working here and in the building next to our works a chap was interested in aeroplanes and he said, he said, ‘Tony,’ he said, ‘I saw an advert in the paper asking anybody who, about that time to get in touch.’ And I got in touch with these people and apparently whether they, because they went over to Lincolns and then to of all things Super Fortresses afterwards. And on, over North Norfolk they were they were either on an exercise affiliating with fighters and one crashed into them and that these were relatives who were asking if anybody remembered them.
DK: Right.
TS: And then as I say I went to Leconfield and I stayed there until November ’47. Then I came out. And I had a lovely time there.
DK: Just stepping back a bit. The relatives were trying to get in touch with which accident? Sorry. That was another one was it?
TS: Another one. Yes.
DK: Another one. So a plane.
TS: Yes.
DK: Did it hit a Lincoln or a Super Fortress?
TS: It collided with it.
DK: But it was —
TS: It was either a Lincoln or a Lancaster.
DK: Right.
TS: One of the two.
DK: So it’s around the same time.
TS: Around about the same time. Yes.
DK: Same time. Right. Ok.
TS: Yes. And they doing you know a big air exercise with the fighters affiliating with bombers probably intercepting them.
DK: Right.
TS: Which was very unfortunate. But it was so unfortunate when things like that happen. I mean Johnny Cantrell and his crew had done, they had done about fifteen I believe when we joined them and of course they go and do that and then they’re all killed.
DK: Oh dear.
TS: I have some ideas on it but I’m not going to —
DK: No. No
TS: Tell you.
DK: Fair enough.
TS: In there. You appreciate that.
DK: No. No. That’s fair enough. Right. So when did you actually leave the Air Force then?
TS: November ‘47
DK: Right. Ok. And what career did you go into after that?
TS: Well, I got married by the way.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
TS: In February the 10th. In fact it was our seventy first wedding anniversary last Saturday but my wife died three years ago. But that was our wedding in 1947.
DK: Right.
TS: And I had nothing to do. I mean I’d never done anything before going in the Air Force and I had some screwy idea pf another friend of mine because we lived in Kent in among fruit orchards of buying up the fruit in an orchard and that didn’t work out. So I went to work for a company called Serck, S E R C K whose headquarters was in Birmingham. And funnily enough they used to make the oil coolers for the Hercules engines.
DK: Right.
TS: They also made the oil coolers for the Concorde.
DK: Right.
TS: They developed that using fuel going through the matric to cool the oil. Which was a good idea but sadly they’ve gone now. They were sold to BTR. A load of asset strippers.
DK: Oh dear. The old story. So all these years later how do you look back on your time in the Air Force?
TS: An adventure. Yes. it was. Yes. It was. How I would have felt after doing thirty ops I don’t, I might have been nervous and one thing and another because lots of people were. I mean the great time when Bomber Command were really desecrated in a way was ’42 ’43 and up to almost the invasion in ’44. And when we went, when we went as I say we were sprogs really when we went there. And the Germans, you know they were so few, short of fuel. I mean the ones over the Ruhr. I did see some. This was in daylight but there were so many Spits around us and one thing and another that none came near us. But, whether, whether I would have felt different but altogether it was a great adventure. There’s no doubt about that.
DK: Ok. Ok that’s great.
TS: Yeah.
DK: Let’s stop it there shall we?
TS: Yes. Alright then.
DK: On that positive note. Well, thanks very much for your time. That’s been absolutely marvellous.
TS: Well, I hope it’s you know I’ve been —
DK: No. It’s very good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tony Snook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASnookT180215, PSnookT1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:49:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Tony Snook was an air gunner and served on 115 Squadron in the later stages of the Second World War. A member of the school air training corps, he had his first experience of flight when his squadron partook in a summer camp. He describes how an opportunity to stand behind the pilot of a Beaufighter holding onto his seat came about. He enlisted as a PNB (pilot, navigator, bomb aimer) in November 1943, after leaving school. Following initial training he successfully undertook elementary flying training, however, after D-Day there was an excess of pilots, and Tony was moved to an air gunnery course on the Isle of Man. He describes meeting his crew and arriving at RAF Witchford in February 1945, where they joined 115 Squadron flying Lancasters. Five operations were undertaken before the end of hostilities. He describes the only time they came under fire and, unfortunately for the ground crew who cleaned up the aftermath, the major damage was to the elsan toilet. As members of his crew were discharged after the war, Tony was allocated to another crew. He describes several operations to Bari, Italy to repatriate soldiers from the Eighth Army in Lancasters that ferried twenty passengers and five crew. In 1946, Tony was posted to a gunnery instructor course and then to the central gunnery school at RAF Leconfield. In February 1946, shortly after his posting from 115 Squadron, his crew were all killed in a tragic accident. Tonywas discharged in November 1947, he regards his flying career as a great adventure, but appreciates that flying operations in 1945 were completely different from those undertaken earlier in the campaign.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
Italy
England--Kent
Wales--Bridgend
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945
1946
115 Squadron
28 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Beaufighter
bombing
Flying Training School
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Langar
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Witchford
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1137/11681/ASquiresJW180407.1.mp3
bbfec58bd33828f0572f97565c980163
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Squires, John William
J W Squires
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John William Squires (b.1936). He grew up in Nottinghamshire and witnessed a crash.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Squires, JW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just introduce myself then. It’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr Squires at his home on the 7th of April 2018. With his son Roger, Roger Squires. So if I just put that down there. Can I just ask first of all how long have you lived, lived here?
RS: You was born here weren’t you?
DK: Born here.
JS: Yeah. I was born here. Born just down here.
DK: Right.
JS: And then we moved up the road. Mum and dad did.
DK: So what year would that have been?
JS: ’57.
RS: ’37.
DK: 1937
JS: ’57. No. When they moved
DK: Oh right. Ok. You moved in ’57.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RS: So you —
DK: So what, what year were you born?
JS: ’36.
DK: 1936. Ok.
JS: Eighty two, nearly.
DK: So, you’ve, you’ve been here more or less all your life then.
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So has it been sort of farming here then?
JS: Pardon?
DK: Have you been farming?
JS: Well, we’ve done a bit of all sorts here.
DK: Right. What, what do you do on the fields then? What do you grow there?
JS: We’ve got four beasts.
DK: Right.
JS: And the horse. And they keep it down.
DK: Yeah.
RS: You’ve had pigs and cattle most of your life though. Haven’t you, dad?
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Right. So pigs. Cattle.
RS: Yeah.
DK: So, when, so in going back to the 1930 1940s what was it like around here? Presumably there’s all new houses gone up.
JS: Oh yeah.
DK: Was it more fields?
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Across here. That were milk. The one down. Next one. The next one wasn’t built.
DK: Right.
JS: And they were just paddocks.
DK: Right. So you’ve seen a few changes then.
JS: A tremendous amount of changes and not for the better.
DK: Not for the best. Did you prefer the old days then?
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So, have you enjoyed working on the farm around here then? With the —
JS: Yes. I worked on a farm when I left school.
DK: Right.
JS: I never went to school in my last year.
DK: Right. So what, how old were you when you left school?
JS: Officially fifteen but I was fourteen.
DK: Right.
JS: And where I worked I used to go like part time and weekends, Tom Arnolds. Then the cowman got killed.
DK: Oh.
JS: In about, I think it was about October. And he come down one night and said Billy had been killed.
DK: Right.
JS: On the A1. And could I go in the morning? I never went to school no more.
DK: Oh. Oh.
JS: I did all the corn. Ploughed all the land.
DK: Yeah. So, can you remember much then about the war time years around here?
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So what can you remember about those? Those years?
JS: The pub around here was called the Blue Greyhound.
DK: Right.
JS: The pub. And it was full of airmen, soldiers mainly.
DK: Where, where had they come from? The airmen and soldiers.
JS: Oh, Bottesford and Balderton.
DK: Right. So were they, were they mostly British or —
JS: All sorts.
DK: Americans?
JS: Yeah. Mostly British.
DK: Mostly British. Yeah.
JS: They were mostly British but there were all sorts of in them.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Amongst them. And mum and dad, it was only a two bedroom cottage where we lived and there was me, my brother.
DK: Right.
JS: My sister. Mum and dad. And it was never empty.
DK: Right.
JS: Never. We’d always got either airmen here. Army. Land Army.
DK: So the, the airmen then used to stay in your house did they?
JS: Well, they used to come and then go home the next day.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So what did they do when they were in your house? Can you remember? Did they give you treats?
JS: Well. Yeah.
DK: What did you get?
JS: We got, we got sweets and got gum. And I think that was about it.
DK: So you remember them fondly do you? Giving you, giving you things.
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I was only very small in them days.
DK: So how old would you have been about?
JS: Five or six. Seven maybe.
DK: And, and you can remember those changes in the wartime then?
JS: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I can remember a lot about them. And then went on to [pause] from, from all the airmen and Army and Land Army and everybody it was like.
DK: Yeah.
JS: All come to our house. We had a very great big table in the kitchen. As big as what this space is.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Proper farmhouse table in the a kitchen. It were only a two bedroom. A [pig] hanging on the wall.
DK: Did, did any of the Land Army people actually work here with, with your parents?
JS: No.
DK: On the farm. No.
JS: No. Any Land Army we had she were up at [Lind’s]
DK: Right.
JS: That was up at where the NT junction goes on to the main street. The farm just on the left there.
DK: And they were Land Army girls were they?
JS: Yeah.
DK: Mostly? Yeah. Right.
JS: Yeah.
DK: So just coming to the incident then of the plane crash that you saw. Could you tell us a little bit about what you saw?
JS: Well, we’d just finished killing the pig. Just finished cutting it up.
DK: Right.
JS: And Fred Potts, he was the pig killer and my dad and a sudden, we just heard this very big bump. And then the noise like and then of course everything just lit up. Sort of orange. Because it lit up the room above our lighting. And then everything. We wanted to know what had happened.
DK: Can you remember what time of day it was? Was it in the morning? Evening?
JS: No. It was the evening.
DK: Right. Can you remember roughly what sort of time? Early evening?
JS: Nay. But I would reckon about 8.45.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok.
JS: We’d just finished cutting the pig up. Fred Potts lived down at the Grange.
DK: Yeah. So you didn’t actually see the aircraft come down.
JS: No.
DK: You just heard the noise. So did you go over to the crash itself.
JS: No.
DK: And did, did your father go over and have a look? Or —
JS: My dad worked at the farm just across the road here. They owned these two fields. Well, they owned the land like.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He’d got beasts and him and Fred Potts went on their hands and knees because there were bullets flying everywhere. Went on their hands and knees over a plank, over the dyke here, up the edge and then the field was along an the end a big dip in it.
DK: Right.
JS: And they crawled across there and they went to there to see if everything was alright there. And it didn’t, didn’t get as far as there.
DK: So sadly then most of the crew were, were killed as far as you know.
JS: Yes. They was all killed sadly.
DK: So can you remember the recovery? Did the Air Force turn up?
JS: Yes.
DK: To put the fire out or —
JS: I can’t remember much about the fire because I didn’t go out that night.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I weren’t allowed out. I mean, I was only about, I think — what would I be? Ten, six, five?
RS: Jenny put you under the table didn’t she?
JS: Eh?
RS: Put you under the table.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Why were you put under the table?
JS: Because they thought the house was going to go up.
DK: Oh right. So —
JS: We were put in the glory hole for a start and that was like the cupboard in, like a lean to cupboard in it.
DK: Right. So —
JS: Under the stairs.
DK: Was your family worried that there could be bombs on board presumably.
JS: Yes. Yes.
DK: That might have gone up again.
JS: My brother had got double pneumonia and mother wrapped him in a blanket and said she was going out. Take us all out of it. And my Granny Horton was here. Mother’s mother. Helping to get the pig out of the way. And she said, ‘We’re not. We’re stopping here, Aggie. If we go we’ll all go together.’ And we stayed in there and we were shoved under the stairs in the glory hole. And they had the notion that if, if it did blow up then the big main beam of the house would drop on us.
DK: Yeah.
JS: So we were taken out of there and put in [laughs] put under the table. And my sister had got her head in the stays of the chair like. She didn’t get in properly. She was struggling and she was trying to get under. But we was under the table.
DK: And in in the days afterwards can you remember anything about the crash itself? Were they taking the wreckage away? Or —
JS: Yes. I can remember that.
DK: Yeah. How did they take the wreckage away? Did you see any of that?
JS: Yes. They reckon they went, come down this Green Lane and pick it up and they couldn’t get down.
DK: Right.
JS: So they were going to come in from across there [unclear] But then there was this big dip in the field and the things bellied when they went over it. So they organised that. I can’t remember them organising it but they did do, and they dragged the big, the top of the hill down to the bottom and made it just a ramp.
DK: Right.
JS: Then they came over with Queen Mary’s.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And a mobile crane arm. I don’t know whether the was an arm on them or what. But they came in a mobile crane and picked bits up by bit and took it.
DK: Yeah. And you can actually remember the Queen Marys and, and the mobile crane.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I can remember seeing that.
DK: So how long was if before all the wreckage had gone? Was it quite quickly? Or. —
JS: I think it was pretty quick because it snowed like hell that night.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And you didn’t see much in the morning like because it was all snow. But it did as the snow disappeared. And you know where it came over the river don’t you?
DK: Could you tell me? Is it —
JS: Yeah. It came, it came down in those fields out the back there.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok.
JS: Not my land. Foston Fields. It hit the riverbank and jumped up and crossed the river.
DK: Right.
JS: That was when the rear gunner fell off. And then it carried on going across the field, scoping it out with the propellers still going.
DK: Right.
JS: It hit the tree in the lane down here.
DK: Right.
JS: Grubbed the first tree up by the roots. The second tree it snapped off at about twelve foot. And the third tree it took off at about twelve foot. And then it crossed the lane and there was a big elm on this side. On the right hand side.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And it hit that and it catapulted it around and all the rubbish was in this hedge. All the wreckage.
DK: Right.
JS: And in this hedge.
RS: The wheel come down the lane and stopped up there where that black car is.
DK: Oh right.
JS: One of the wheels did. It hit a tree just here. Right here in front of those conifers.
DK: So you’re quite lucky then it didn’t come into the house.
JS: Oh Christ, we were exceptionally lucky.
DK: Yeah.
RS: The tree up there you can still see the split in it where it split in half. Can’t you?
JS: Yeah. It hit that tree there.
DK: Let’s all go and have a look later.
JS: Yeah. It hit that tree there and then carried on. It carried on going up the lane which is only thirty yards I think from here.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And we were sitting there. It hit the tree up there and knocked the top out of it and then it was dead then. It knocked the top out of this tree.
DK: And presumably were you finding bits of wreckage in the years afterwards?
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Only bits of rubbish. Tin and that.
DK: Yeah.
JS: You know. Alloy and things.
DK: Right.
JS: And dad found, for years dad was finding it and he had a tin, a box up there. And someone, I was going to give them it and they came down. I went to the box and it was empty.
DK: Oh.
JS: But there was nothing of any value.
DK: No.
JS: It was just a bit of alloy and a bit of metal like.
DK: Yeah. So how long was it before you kind of were conscious of, of the crew being killed? I mean did you know that as a child?
JS: More or less instant.
DK: Yeah. But you were aware that one of the crew did survive.
JS: Yes. Tom Arnold at the top of the village. I don’t know what he was. Air raid warden. Possible.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He came down and said, ‘You’re alright, missus. There’s no bombs on it.’ And he came down across these fields. ‘There’s no bombs on it so you’re alright.’ So everybody was relieved then like.
DK: Ok. What I’ll do just for the recording then I’ll say here that we now know that it was Lancaster, the serial number LM619 and it came from 1668 Heavy Conversion Unit and it crashed on the 15th of January 1945.
JS: Yeah. I think it was.
DK: Does that sound right?
JS: I think it was that date but I’m not sure.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. We’ve checked on that and six of the crew were killed but the rear gunner survived.
JS: Yeah.
RS: He later took his own life.
DK: And I understand —
RS: Yeah.
DK: He subsequently committed suicide. [The rear gunner, Sergeant G F Ashby died of natural causes in 1958]
JS: Did he?
DK: Which, that was tragic.
JS: I didn’t know that but it left him a bit, it sent him doolally like.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He was found wandering at Bennington.
DK: Really?
JS: He’d walked up the river.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And he was found at Bennington.
DK: Presumably he was suffering concussion or something or —
JS: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. You said you can remember the smell can’t you?
DK: Yeah.
[pause]
DK: Can, can you sort of remember the smell then of the —
JS: Yes.
DK: What did it smell like? What’s it —
JS: I can’t remember what it was there but it, yes there was a smell with it. And there was a fire. A big fire. A hell of a big fire. And it all petered out and bullets sort of seized up. Shooting around.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And we went up to the bedroom window then to look at it. The bedroom window was just out, just out here like.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Straight down onto the site.
DK: So you were looking down on the crash site then.
JS: Yes, almost.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And then we were allowed to go out then when it, after we’d been told there was no bombs on it and the bullets had died.
DK: And when you first saw the wreckage can you remember sort of what you saw?
JS: I can’t remember what it was but it was a tangled up mess.
DK: Right.
JS: I can visualise what it was. It was a tangled up mess and there were bits everywhere.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Engines. One engine had carried on going when it come off.
DK: It implies it was coming out as some speed isn’t it?
JS: Pardon?
DK: It implies it was coming up at some speed doesn’t it?
JS: Yeah. It was landing.
DK: Yeah. So do you know where he was trying to land then? Or —
JS: Yeah. He was trying to land at Bottesford.
DK: Right. Because that’s that way.
RS: Yeah. Three fields.
DK: That doesn’t help the recording me saying that way, does it?
RS: No. But its three fields. If you look on the thing its three fields further on.
DK: Oh ok. Right. So he, he nearly made it.
RS: Well, there was Nissen huts and things in this farm. Farm building. Weren’t there, dad?
JS: Hmmn?
RS: There was huts in this building. In this farm, wasn’t it? There were huts in it weren’t there?
JS: Yes.
RS: So whether he took it that that was landing.
DK: Yeah.
RS: I don’t know.
JS: Yeah. It was all like cat gut.
DK: And —
JS: Twelve foot up.
DK: And as far as we know, this is just for the recording here the pilot we know was a Pilot Officer Thompson.
JS: I don’t know who he was.
DK: No.
JS: They’d got permission to land at Bennington err —
DK: Bottesford.
JS: At Bottesford.
DK: Yeah
JS: And they’d got permission but they’d got to go around again.
DK: Right.
JS: And then go down and they thought he was in there because there was a tin sheds in this field. And they put it down there and of course the river. They give the job up.
DK: Yeah. Can, can you remember the Lancasters then? And various other aircraft all flying around here?
JS: Yeah.
DK: So was that, was that quite a common occurrence then?
JS: No. We’ve had hours and hours on a Sunday evening. Especially Sunday. Stood on our front yard. The front, the front of our cottage watching them fight. Dogfighting.
DK: Oh right.
JS: Just up here like. And you see him and then you, you either hear it [humming noise] that was a goner or, or they, or they cleared off.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Times and times and times we used to stand in the yard watching them. All in the dark we was.
RS: There were searchlights here, weren’t there, dad? Searchlights on Bennington Road.
JS: Eh?
RS: Searchlights on Bennington Road weren’t there?
JS: Yes.
DK: Searchlights. Yeah. Any anti-aircraft guns or —
JS: I can’t remember them.
DK: No.
JS: I can remember the searchlights.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I can remember the searchlights operating by being two men.
DK: Yeah.
JS: One of them was sat there tending the wheel. Well they both got a wheel and one was a gun aimer.
DK: Right.
JS: And when they were fighting, you know like this scrap were going on up there. But it was regular to see them. The searchlights on the farm.
DK: Right.
JS: Yeah. And all around here there was barbed wire. And probably about four posts on the roadside and a hole dug.
DK: Yeah.
RS: That’s Bottesford airfield.
DK: Oh right. Closer than I thought.
RS: That’s us.
DK: Right.
RS: Landed. So it dropped there.
DK: Yeah.
RS: There was only them two.
DK: So that’s where he was trying to make for, wasn’t it?
RS: And there’s a couple beside the A1.
DK: This is another memorial. The other side of Bottesford then.
RS: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Another crashed Lancaster.
JS: Yeah. There was one or two around here.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Different ones.
DK: So that was, that was the only accident you saw then was it, the — or you were aware of around here?
JS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So, so once the war’s finished was it a big change here then?
JS: I can’t remember. I can’t remember. I can remember my dad because he worked over there.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He got a big mark on, every, every door around here. VE. VE. I can remember. I can remember him walking around doing it.
DK: Yeah. So everyone was quite pleased and celebrating were they?
JS: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JS: Yeah. And I mean all that’s gone now. The buildings and everything’s gone.
DK: Yeah.
JS: All gone in to development. But if you found them doors you’d find this VE.
DK: Right. Ok. That’s marvellous. I think we’ve sort of covered it, haven’t we? We can, we can come back again if you want to. if I, I’m going to turn this off now so, but thanks very much for that.
[recording paused]
DK: Sorry. Go on. You were going to say.
JS: We heard this droning noise and everybody looked at everybody and said nothing. And then it was just bang. Crashed and everything just sort of shattering and then the sky lit up orange.
DK: So you could feel the ground shake could you?
JS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JS: You could feel feel the whole house shake. I thought it was going to fall down.
DK: Yeah. I guess when you’re that age you’re not too frightened of things but can you recall if you were a bit scared of that or —
JS: No. I wasn’t scared. I don’t know about the rest of the family but I weren’t scared.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was excitement to me.
DK: Yes. I can imagine.
JS: But then Tom Arnold came down and he came across the fields to the back door there and said, ‘Are you alright, missus?’
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because my dad had gone across to the rectory. There were no bombs on it. So I don’t know how he knew. Whether they’d informed him.
DK: Yeah.
JS: I think he was air raid warden.
DK: Yes. I guess they would have known quite early if it was on a training flight that there was no bombs. So —
RS: They put guards on it didn’t they?
JS: Yeah.
DK: But what were the guards? Were they the Home Guard or were they soldiers? Can you remember?
JS: Weren’t Home Guard. They were MPs.
DK: Oh ok.
JS: Put on it to guard it.
DK: Yeah.
JS: As I say it snowed and they commandeered the Village Hall. They had that. And my dad was milking the cow across here like he always had done. And the bloke, one of the guards came across with him. And then when he saw where the milk come from he was sick.
DK: He didn’t know.
JS: No. He didn’t know. He just thought it came out a bottle.
DK: I think there’s a lot of people today don’t know where milk came from.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok. That’s, that’s marvellous I’ll stop this again now but thanks very much for that.
[recording paused]
DK: You mentioned, you mentioned about the boot. You were saying that there was a boot out there after the accident.
JS: Yes.
DK: Can you remember what you saw there?
JS: A flying boot. And then you looked in it and it was like a half foot. Half a leg.
DK: And that was in what is now your back garden.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And how long was it there for?
JS: I can’t remember how long it was there for. I would imagine it wouldn’t be very long but I can’t remember.
DK: No.
JS: It happened in the night. I think it was a Saturday night. I think it would be about 8 o’clock. And of course, it was all found in daylight the next day.
DK: Not a, not a nice thing to see was it?
JS: No.
DK: No. Oh dear.
JS: I should think it was probably picked up the next day. I don’t know what happened to it.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was reported that there was a boot there.
DK: Not good. Not a good thing to see.
JS: And on those trees what I showed you the first one was grubbed out completely.
DK: Yeah.
JS: The second one had got a load of gut hanging.
DK: A load of — ?
JS: Like cat gut.
DK: Oh.
JS: Where it had been got up there about twelve foot.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And dripped like.
DK: Oh dear. Not a very pleasant sight.
JS: No.
DK: Well, I hope we can get the Memorial sorted out to them. That would be very good wouldn’t it?
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. I like the idea of the bench. Sounds a good idea that.
JS: I don’t know what. I haven’t got nothing to do with that. Sorting the Memorial or doing anything with the Memorial.
DK: Well, your son is trying to sort something out, isn’t he?
JS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John William Squires
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASquiresJW180407
Format
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00:25:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
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John was living on a farm and working there when he left school at fourteen. The family of five lived in a two-bedroom cottage and John remembered hearing a plane crashing near Westborough one evening, all but one of the crew being killed. The children were put under the table for protection against a bomb exploding. The aircraft, which crashed on the 15 January 1945, was Lancaster LM619 from a RAF Bottesford Heavy Conversion Unit. The rear gunner, Sergeant G F Ashby survived. A memorial bench had been planned for the village.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945-01-15
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
air gunner
aircrew
crash
Lancaster
memorial
RAF Bottesford
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1140/11696/AStanneyF160212.2.mp3
37f2199ed0fceec27a2eb56c196c751e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stanney, Frank
F Stanney
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Stanney ( - 2017). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stanney, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, I’ll introduce myself. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Frank Stanney on 12th of February.
FS: 12th
DK: 2016.
FS: Twenty one six.
DK: Yes.
FS: Yes.
DK: 2016. That’s it. Yes. I couldn’t remember the year. Ok. That looks like it’s going ok. So, really what I’d like to know really is, is perhaps if you could say a little bit about how you came to join the RAF.
FS: Well, well for a start I was in the Air Training Corps.
DK: Ok.
FS: Well, that was, I was fifteen, sixteen years old. Because obviously I decided to volunteer for the RAF in 1943.
DK: Ok.
FS: Well, I was only eighteen at the time.
DK: So —
FS: Like thousands more.
DK: So, had you come straight from school or were you working?
FS: Oh no. I left school at fourteen.
DK: Ah ok.
FS: And while we’re on to it Sibsey is just down the road. I was at Sibsey School in 1937.
DK: Ok.
FS: This is not quite the war of course. And this German airship came over. The Hindenburg. We didn’t know what it was at the time.
DK: Right.
FS: But it was the German Hindenburg airship. And when it got back to Germany that night, they were tethering it up and it blew up and caught fire.
DK: Oh right. So —
FS: There’s not many left that saw that.
DK: So you saw the Hindenburg.
FS: But I did.
DK: Oh wow.
FS: And there’s not been many more that did actually. Anyway, and then I was, decided to join in 1943 and I was, I was called up then and went to St Johns Wood in London. I had three weeks there initial training.
DK: If I could just take you back a bit. When you left school at fourteen. Were —
FS: Sorry? Sorry?
DK: Were you working?
FS: I was on the agriculture.
DK: Agriculture.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok. Ok.
FS: Well, that’s all there was to do. And how should I say? There was not many other type of work. Not much at the time in Lincolnshire. Especially Boston. Fishtoft. It was all agriculture —
DK: Right.
FS: Well, and then of course the war. I was, and then getting back to it I was in the, I was there six weeks and I got my calling up papers. I’d already been in. I thought that was quite funny. But I wished now afterwards I’d kept it. But I sent it back and told them to save paper [laughs]. But I wish now I’d kept it for a souvenir thing. However, I went to St Johns Wood. Then I went to [pause] oh dear [pause] Hereford. No. Yeah. Madley. I was stationed at Madley.
DK: Madley.
FS: I think that’s where I got my three stripes and my badge of course. Then we went up to Scotland. Dumfries. To do more training. Came back. I went to Market Harborough to be crewed up with seven, well six young men like myself. Seven.
DK: So, what, what role were you training for then?
FS: Well, I was, already done the Morse code. I’d already learned the Morse code so I was training to do the radio operator.
DK: Radio operator.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
FS: But I’d I thought I was putting in, changing something. I had a brother a year older than myself. He joined the RAF. Now, he did an air gunner’s course and the radio operator and he went straight on Transport Command where they didn’t need air gunners. I didn’t do the air gunner’s course. I went straight on Bomber Command. I can’t quite get over how funny.
DK: Yeah.
FS: However, yeah, Market Harborough. We trained there. Where did we come back to? Lincoln? Wigsley. Wigsley. Does that —
DK: Wigsley. Yeah. Yes.
FS: On Stirlings.
DK: Right.
FS: Because we were Wellingtons at Market Harborough. Then we came on to Stirlings and went in to Syerston at Nottingham on Lancasters.
DK: So, what, so was it an Operational Training Unit you were on?
FS: Yeah. Operational Training. And then of course we came back from Syerston to Skellingthorpe. Not far from where you are. It’s now the Birchwood Estate. 61 Squadron. And that’s where I did my flying from.
DK: Just going back to the Operational Training Units. How did you feel about flying on the Wellingtons?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Was that a good aircraft?
FS: [unclear] Wellingtons we flew in, oh they were terrible things to fly in.
DK: Ok.
FS: You’ve got to have the opportunity but if you ever get the chance they’re awful things to fly in.
DK: What about the Stirling? Was that —
FS: Stirlings were quite good actually. Although they were all electrical but they were quite good but being heavy. But we did like the Lancasters better than the Halifax.
DK: Right. How, how did you crew up? How did you meet your crew? Were you —
FS: Met the crew at Market Harborough.
DK: Right. And how was the crews organized?
FS: Well, shall we say, getting back, as you said to Market Harborough when I went, got on the train to go from here at Boston, the young lad in there was air gunner.
DK: Ok.
FS: And obviously we didn’t know one another but we sat next to one another and he was from Grimsby.
DK: Right.
FS: But he was also going to Market Harborough. So we crewed up together.
DK: On the train.
FS: And he was, he finished up as our mid-upper. But as I said I’m the only one left now. But it was quite interesting. We all got in a big ante-room as they called it. Had the pep talk and one thing and another and the CO as he was then, ‘Well now, you pilots just walk around and choose who you would like to fly for you.’ Well, fortunately for me I was sat next, we didn’t know one another mind you, I was sat next to a pilot and fortunately he asked me if I’d be his radio operator. Course I agreed. Which, he went down to choose his and five minutes later a Canadian came around. He was on his rounds. Would I fly with him? I said, ‘I’m sorry I’ve just chosen,’ you see. Well, a fortnight later this Canadian took off one night and he hit the electric cables at Market Harborough. Killed the lot. I could have been with him. Course you wouldn’t have been here now. Anyway, that was a bit of luck.
DK: Do you think it worked well that you basically found your own crews?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual, being in the military. Normally you’re ordered to do something. This is —
FS: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: This is, this you had to find yourself. Do you think that really worked?
FS: Yeah. And how else do we say? We could move from there to — went to Syerston and fortunately or unfortunately shall we say, a week in January ’45 we couldn’t fly for snow. It was, it was really up to here. So that either saved my life or had to volunteer to do two more. You don’t know. But we didn’t fly for nearly, for above a week. But we were only training and then of course we came to Skellingthorpe and that’s where we set off on the night trips. Daylights. And as I said I did ten. Eight nights and two daylights. One daylight we got the outer, starboard outer shot out but it didn’t, and fortunately it didn’t frighten me but as I stood up, out of my seat to have a look out the right hand window to see if there were any more shell holes. I didn’t know at the time or we didn’t know but we were flying alongside 617 with the ten tonners. As I looked out this [unclear] just released his ten tonner. That was something worth seeing. Not many of them. There was only forty four dropped, I think during the war and I actually saw one being released.
DK: So when you lost the engine —
FS: Yeah.
DK: Had you been attacked by another aircraft or was it —
FS: No. We weren’t attacked. It was anti, anti-aircraft fire.
DK: Ok.
FS: But luckily although call it shot out, it shot out of action. I mean the engine wasn’t shot out itself. We came back on three. Daylight. Comfortable. And funnily enough it never frightened me. I was never frightened at all. I never even fastened my parachute harness up. Never.
DK: Was that the only time your aircraft was hit?
FS: Yeah. Yeah. And the last one we were on was an oil refinery in Norway.
DK: Right.
FS: And that was, shall we, well it was a night but early morning and we could see the Northern Lights shining across. A beautiful sight. [laughs] Sort of a show of colour at the same time.
DK: Right.
FS: But as I just said it never frightened me.
DK: And what did you feel about the Lancaster as an aircraft?
FS: Sorry?
DK: The Lancaster. What did you think of the Lancaster?
FS: The —
DK: The Lancaster. Was it a good aircraft? The Lancaster.
FS: Oh aye. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. How did you feel flying on one of those?
FS: Oh yeah.
DK: Safe?
FS: Yeah. It were alright. Yeah.
Other: How did you feel, he said.
DK: Pardon?
Other: How did you feel flying on one? A Lancaster.
FS: How did I feel?
DK: Yeah.
FS: I enjoyed it. I did really.
DK: Did you feel safe?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yes. As I said, and I wasn’t frightened. I never, funny, knowing that. Even, I mean obviously we were shot at a lot of times but it didn’t frighten me, funnily enough. Not as much as the Mrs does [laughs] We’ve had sixty odd years. Sixty odd years. Now then. What else?
DK: So, what, what was Skellingthorpe like?
FS: Well, as far as I could just remember it was just an ordinary airfield. We had 50 Squadron there which were VN and we were 61 with QR. I’ve got a big picture up there. You can have a look at it. No. Just as far as I can recall it was just an ordinary airfield. 5 Group of course. Which were, we didn’t know at the time but we were supposed to be the group, 5 Group, the group it was but we didn’t know. I mean we were just ordinary airmen.
DK: Yeah. So as, as wireless operator what did you have to do? What were your duties?
FS: Well, one thing we didn’t have to do was go to sleep. No. We used to get a message. I think every half hour. They were not necessarily on the half hour or the hour but at any time half hour.
DK: Right.
FS: So we weren’t asleep. So one two three. I think we got three diversions. Bad weather, fog, weather and so on. So we were diverted different places which was lucky in one. We even had one right down in the New Forest.
DK: Right.
FS: Instead of coming back to Lincolnshire. Right down. Of course we had breakfast there of course. It was quite nice. So, one in Norfolk. Coltishall. But it was quite good. But that was my job. If, I couldn’t really go to sleep although I did have a little shut eye. No doubt a lot of them did. Then what else?
DK: So, so you would receive a message.
FS: Yes.
DK: And then you’d tell your pilot then.
FS: Pilot yes.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Pilot. Navigator.
DK: Pilot. Navigator.
FS: They were, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: I had to tell them. It used to come in Morse code obviously.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Then I had to transfer it. Translate it over. Quite good.
DK: And did you send messages at all?
FS: Not really.
DK: You didn’t communicate with the airfield then?
FS: Probably, I may have done but I can’t really remember doing so. Not. No. I may have done. Yes. When we’ve got a diversion. Yeah. Maybe I had to do. Yeah.
DK: Ok. So, what did you used to do when you weren’t on operations? What did you do on your days off?
FS: Come home and see my girlfriend [laughs]
Other: That’s a silly question [laughs]
FS: Before I met [laughs] hey you ask a silly question. No. I’ll tell you.
DK: Did you go to Lincoln?
FS: Yeah. Obviously it was [unclear] the crew.
DK: Ok.
FS: I had a motorbike at the time.
DK: Ok.
FS: But we hadn’t much petrol. And then we were siphoning some out one of the tankers one day to come home with but it wasn’t too bad actually. You see, not too far from Lincoln this wasn’t. What else could I, that I could remember. May. It was May, shall I say the day the war finished which was May the 8th ’45 we flew to Belgium for a load of ex-prisoners of war but that was the time we went up without parachutes. And we were half way across the Channel when Winston Churchill gave his speech to the end of the war. And when they played the anthem, me being the radio operator I switched the radio on so that the rest of them could hear and we were tried to stand up [laughs] We used to laugh. You’d never seen any, a hell of a, we get, we get to Belgium. Get there. Landed there. Oh it was hot. Middle of May. Well, May the 8th actually and we hadn’t been down there long before the equivalent to our NAAFI came round with coffee and biscuits. But it was ersatz coffee? Have you ever had ersatz coffee?
DK: [unclear]
FS: Have you?
DK: Never had it.
FS: Made with acorns.
DK: Yeah.
FS: It was quite nice actually.
DK: Yeah?
FS: Yeah. And of course we enjoyed this. Load up the twenty four. And before we struck up —
DK: That was, that twenty four prisoners.
FS: Ex-prisoners.
DK: Ex-prisoners of war.
FS: Twenty four.
DK: So you got twenty four on the Lancaster.
FS: If you, have you seen in one?
DK: I have, yes. Yes.
FS: Now, can you imagine how we got twenty four in? There were three of them. When I was sat here as I am now I look out of the window and my radio was here in front obviously but when we got airborne I had to get on my hands and knees and let all the airmen out. But before we struck up I had to have a word with these three so there’d be sign language when I wanted to [unclear] asked them, I told them I would have to get down and move. So when we got airborne I had to mumble mumble and they moved. And I explained to them that when we come into land I had to do the alternative, you see. It was quite good actually. But when we dropped these off at Grantham, sorry Peterborough we flew back to our own base of course. Handed in our flying kit, and gear and had a meal. And the flight engineer and myself, unfortunately we went to the sergeant’s mess and got drunk. I was violently drunk.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But I managed to get home the next day to Boston. It was May time and May Fair was on at Boston. The May Fair. But I didn’t know just at the time but there was a soldier got slung off one of these rides in Boston and was killed.
DK: Right.
FS: Just on May Fair. I don’t know what, quite today but May the 8th was the fair but it was somewhere just on there.
DK: Off a bus.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Oh dear.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Just going back to the prisoners you picked up.
FS: Yeah.
DK: What, what was their reaction to going home? How did they —
FS: Well, they got in with rifles and bayonets and boots. It was interesting there to watch them with their souvenirs.
DK: Right.
FS: They got masses of things but I mean we were, we couldn’t take a photograph or anything. I wish we could. But it was quite interesting to see what they’d got. Big boots as I just said. Helmets and all sorts they’d got. And then we had another one a bit later on. But then August the 15th was the end of the Japanese war because we were training. We’d volunteered for it actually. The whole crews had volunteered but —
DK: Were you expecting to go out?
FS: Yeah.
DK: To the Far East?
FS: We were expecting —
DK: Yeah.
FS: To go out, yes. In fact, we got, now then, Oh I can’t remember now where we were actually going to be but somewhere near Russia we were going to be. And fly from there to Japan. But as I just said the war finished just in time. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were bombed.
DK: Yeah. How did you feel about that? Did you feel relieved you weren’t going to the Far East?
FS: Sorry?
DK: How did you feel about not going to the Far East?
FS: Up to a point I was disappointed. But other than that I was pleased because it was nasty. It was really nasty. But then, August the, yeah we went to Italy flying ex-prisoners of war back. Sorry. Ex —
DK: Army.
FS: Desert Rats, home from, there was a transit camp in Italy. We had five trips to Italy flying ex-prisoners. Ex —
DK: Yeah.
FS: And that was quite good but one day we’d got all loaded up. We’d only twenty in, mind you then. Not twenty four. Starboard outer wouldn’t start up because getting back it was just hot. We couldn’t run the engines up like we did in this country. We had to, as soon as we got struck up, taxied around but we got belting down the runway, the starboard outer wouldn’t pick up. So it was brakes on, flaps still down. We stopped. We’d five days in Italy without any money [laughs] It was quite interesting. Quite interesting because it gave us the chance, mind you it was all, the one thing what I didn’t see which I didn’t know existed was the Leaning Tower. Now, we didn’t and even if we had we couldn’t have got there because we were stationed just outside Naples. The Leaning Tower was like from here to Blackpool and it was this, but it gave us the chance to get to Sorrento which was a beautiful place. The Bay of Naples which I went swimming in. Naples itself of course and pause] oh dear. What was the other place? [pause] Tell you. Oh crikey. It covered up in the ashes from —
DK: Pompeii.
FS: Pompeii. Thank you. I went there. Yeah. We went down there.
DK: Ah.
FS: Have you been?
DK: I have. Yes. Yes.
FS: Did you see all what I saw?
DK: Yes. It’s an amazing place.
FS: Did you see it? Did you? It was quite interesting there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: Yeah. Quite interesting really but it’s awful to see the women with the children. Oh it was awful.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But that big man on the wall. Did you see him?
DK: Yes.
FS: [laughs] Can’t tell you [coughs] It was quite interesting.
DK: How, how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command? How does it make you feel now? Seventy years later?
FS: Well, it makes me feel pleased really that we did something. As I said I don’t know where I would have been if I’d been called up. Even though I wouldn’t have gone in the army anyway. Or the Navy. Do you know I couldn’t have gone in the navy.
DK: No.
FS: I couldn’t. I was pleased what I did.
DK: So did you come out of the Air Force soon after the war or —
FS: Yeah. I went in at eighteen.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Which was ’43. I was made a sergeant of course. Then a flight sergeant. Then when I was nineteen, flight sergeant when I was twenty. Demobbed at twenty one. That was the end of the war you see.
DK: And, and after that did you come back to Lincoln and work on the — ?
FS: Yeah. Came, we moved to Sturgate. That’s where we were flying abroad from Sturgate.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: But that was, that wasn’t too bad. Right out in the country of course. Near Gainsborough as you know. And a bit further [coughs] excuse me a bit further to come home from there, it was. It was probably worth it in the long run because I’d got a girlfriend. She was a bit keen.
Other: [laughs]
FS: Then the wife she pushed her out [laughs] and then we crewed up together you see. And we’ve had sixty long, sixty some years.
Other: Sixty two.
DK: Well done.
Other: About 1952 wasn’t it? When we got married.
FS: We met. We’ve been, well we had this house built of course. We’ve been down here fifty odd years haven’t we? When we moved here, this was after the war of course there was oh a big house. A huge double fronted house. Old. Twelve inch beams across the ceilings which now I’ve regretted having it knocked down. But it was facing that way.
DK: Yeah. Old building.
FS: But we couldn’t afford to have it done up. It was cheaper to have this built than that one.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But that was just before old properties started to go up in price.
DK: Yeah.
FS: And, I mean we can’t help it now but I’ve regretted it. Haven’t we? It would have been worth more than I am. It would be worth more than I am.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
FS: Yeah. Stayed in touch with them like. All, all six of them up to a point. Yes. But as I said the last one was a pilot. He passed away last back end. But one of them was killed. The tail end Charlie as we called him, the rear gunner, he was from Banbury down in Oxford. He went to the policeman on East India docks when he first came out and he couldn’t stick that. It was too rough. So he went into Ford Motors at Dagenham. Engine. Motor assembly.
DK: Yeah.
FS: And that was too keen — too, too calm. So, he went back on the land and unfortunately he had a tractor roll over him and kill him. But we didn’t, you didn’t meet him did you? Tubby.
Other: Did meet him. Once or twice.
FS: We went, we went to his grave but you didn’t meet him did you?
Other: Yeah. About twice I met him.
FS: Did you? Oh. But you did meet them all didn’t you?
Other: Yes.
FS: Eventually.
Other: It was all very friendly.
DK: Yeah.
Other: You know, happy about the wartime sort of thing. What they’d had.
DK: So one of your crew was Canadian.
FS: No. We’d no. No. We were all —
DK: Oh sorry I missed something.
FS: All English.
DK: All English.
FS: All English. About, [unclear] in here [laughs] No. We were all English.
DK: All English.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And, and all from, four of you from the same area of Lincoln.
FS: Yes. Yeah. No, we were all English fortunately. As I told you a bit earlier on it was a good job I didn’t go with that Canadian.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: One of those things. He was flying. Flying accident.
DK: Can you remember, just for the record, your pilot’s name?
FS: Sorry?
DK: Your pilot’s name.
FS: Yeah. Roocroft.
DK: Roocroft.
FS: Roocroft, Eddie.
Other: [unclear]
DK: Eddie Roocroft.
FS: Excuse me. I don’t know whether you, whether you’ve seen any of these things but these of course you’d get these from Lincoln wouldn’t you? When we had this meeting.
DK: Yeah.
[pause, pages turning]
FS: You can look at any of those. I think I’ve even mislaid my logbook.
DK: That’s a shame.
FS: I don’t know where it is. It might be up in the loft under the foam. I don’t know. That wasn’t part of the course.
DK: There he is. Oh wow.
Other: Is he, have you met anyone before this session? Have you met anyone else?
DK: I have. I’ve interviewed ten veterans so far.
Other: Oh yeah?
DK: So, Frank’s my eleventh.
Other: Oh. Lovely. We used to meet up about once a year and go over the past with them when they were alive.
DK: Yeah. It’s good that you stayed in touch.
Other: Yeah.
DK: It’s nice that you stayed in touch.
FS: Yeah.
Other: We did didn’t we?
DK: So that’s your crew there is it?
FS: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.
DK: And which one are you?
FS: Guess. Try to guess.
DK: Well, I know you’re a sergeant. That one. Go on. Tell me.
FS: Now, you’re nearly. No. You’re not quite on him now. Yeah. You’re on him now.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got you.
FS: You can tell?
DK: I can now.
FS: Yeah.
DK: You’ve hardly, you’ve hardly changed.
[laughs ]
Other: Hardly changed.
DK: So was, was that your Lancaster there then?
FS: Yes. That was ours. Yeah.
DK: Did you fly all the missions on the same one?
FS: Apart from the first.
DK: Right.
FS: The first one was obviously a spare at the time but we had that one all the time.
DK: Ok. Right.
[pause]
FS: Oh, and that by the way is not, that’s, I was on the one that’s described there. I was on that raid.
DK: And you saw the bomb dropped.
FS: Yeah. That’s it.
DK: The Grand Slam bomb.
FS: Yeah. That’s the big one. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: It was, as I said it was a daylight job. Yeah. I’ll pass you another one.
DK: Oh, I see. That’s a part of that isn’t it? So, he was your pilot then?
FS: Yeah. He was mine.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And he passed away last year.
FS: Last year. August time, would it be [unclear] ? Passed away.
Other: About then wasn’t it?
FS: He was just, much after ninety one anyway [pause] That’s a bit of showman. I never did smoke. I never have done. That was done for a bit of show of course. Although, oh and I don’t know whether you know anything about [pause] whether you’re interested in bomber leaflets that we dropped.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh you’ve got the leaflets yeah. So, that’s you again. Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: That’s me again. Yes. Again, yeah. Did you, of course these have been done at Lincoln you see, before. Now then what was that one?
DK: I’ll, I’ll turn the recorder off now. Ok.
FS: Have you done enough?
DK: Yeah. Thanks very much for that.
FS: You’re welcome.
DK: Thank you.
[recording paused]
DK: So if I go up that’s —
FS: Yeah.
DK: That’s you.
FS: That’s myself.
DK: So, wireless operator.
FS: Yeah.
DK: You.
FS: Mid-upper — Leonard Aitken. Navigator — Neil Followes. Pilot —Eddie Roocroft, Flight Engineer — Ted Ruckcliffe. Bomb Aimer — Tony Hargraves and the rear gunner [pause] Tubby. Tubby. Oh crikey.
[pause]
FS: Well dash me.
DK: We’ll call him Tubby.
[pause]
FS: Tubby. Tubby. I can’t. Do you know, I can’t. Tubby. Tubby.
DK: Not to worry.
FS: Oh he’s gone. Tubby. Just give me a minute. Came from Banbury.
[pause]
DK: Tubby. Do you remember?
FS: Tubby’s name.
DK: Tubby’s second name.
FS: Tony. Len. Tubby. Well dash me.
DK: Not to worry. It’ll come back to you.
FS: Yeah. It will.
[recording paused]
DK: Could you just say that again?
FS: Harvey. Derek Harvey.
DK: Tubby Derek Harvey.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Rear gunner.
FS: Rear gunner.
[recording paused]
FS: Twenty years old when we took off and when it turned midnight obviously it was his 21st birthday and that’s when we dropped the bombs.
DK: So your pilot then, Roocroft was twenty years old.
FS: At that time, yes.
DK: And that was a raid to Czechoslovakia.
FS: Yeah. But as I said, when we dropped the bombs he was twenty one. Not many had a twenty first birthday like that was there?
DK: Yeah. So when you took off he was twenty. Dropped the bombs he was twenty one.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Was, was that your longest operation? To Czechoslovakia.
FS: Oh no. No. Sassnitz right around the Baltic coast. Right, all the way around. Nearly ten hours. That was when we see the Northern Lights again. Pretty. Have you seen them?
DK: I haven’t. No.
FS: Their worth it.
DK: I will do one day.
FS: If, if you get the opportunity. I mean we didn’t, we got three bob. That was how much we got for each hour flying but it’s really, really worth a look if you can get. They’re flying from Humberside again sometime this month. But you don’t know whether they are going to be on show or not.
DK: No.
FS: I mean, we were lucky. Right around by Sassnitz on the Baltic coast we saw the Northern Lights. What else? As I said, the last one we went on was Norway. Oil refinery in Norway. At Tønsberg. It was quite interesting because although it was our last one we were going around, we were up about eight thousand feet and the smoke was coming up as high as we were and Eddie said, ‘Were going round again and watch this.’ So we did a semi-circle and watched. And I passed the remark, I said, ‘It’s time we went home for our breakfast Eddie.’
DK: So you actually circled the target again.
FS: We went around twice yeah. Well —
DK: Twice.
FS: Yeah. We did. And still being shot at of course. We never worried. No. That’s why I’ve gone grey I think.
DK: So what about operations to Germany? What targets were, did you go to there?
FS: Bremen, Farge, underground submarine pens just out of Bremen. Dortmund-Ems. I did three Dortmund-Ems Canal. Two nights. One daylight. Oh dear. Heligoland. Heligoland. No. Heligoland was, we didn’t go on that one. And the Dresden I missed which I’d like to have been on because I was on leave. Do you know I can’t remember just now.
DK: Did you, did you know crews that went on the Dresden raid?
FS: To?
DK: Did you know of crews that went to Dresden?
FS: No.
DK: No. What about, what about France? Was there any targets in France?
FS: In France?
DK: In France. Did you go to France?
FS: No. I don’t think so. No. Because you see we were in, go on to February ’45 and the war was on the decline in its way.
DK: Ok.
FS: But it was, no, it was quite interesting. We were still getting shot at. You had never been on one, and of course you never will — but a funny little story I’ll tell you. There was nothing more — oh flying in the dark, coming home, getting fed up, helmet shoved back and at about quarter past six one morning coming over France not too high. And I should, because I sat this side, dropped my curtain down, had a look outside I could see these Frenchman. I couldn’t see straight down because of the wing. I could see these Frenchman with their hands in the air. I thought, God, that’s alright. Waving to us. Thank goodness we was bombing Germany, you see. We gets back for breakfast in our mess camp. We’d had, had a debriefing of course. Had a cup of coffee or tea. Having breakfast and I was standing next to Len, the mid-upper. I said, ‘I see this morning, Len the froggies waving to us. Viva us for bombing Germany.’ He says, ‘What?’ He says, ‘It was milking time,’ he said, ‘The cows were going across the fields with their tails in the air.’ He said, they weren’t viva at us [laughs] I thought it was quite funny really. [pause] Sassnitz, Heligoland. Dortmund-Ems three. Oh Weisel was one. When we’d crossed the Rhine going into Germany towards the end.
DK: Right. Yeah.
FS: We was on that one. That was an interesting one. Not, we weren’t very high on that one. We were just crossing the line there.
DK: So, what were your feelings when you landed? When you got back after a mission. As you touched down how did you feel?
FS: Well, I think really we were pleased we’d done something towards the war. Other than that I can’t remember. But it was quite an interesting do. Weisel. Dortmund-Ems. Heligoland. Tønsberg. Sassnitz. Did I say Sassnitz. I did didn’t I?
DK: Yeah.
FS: Right around the Baltic coast. That was a long trip. Nearly ten hours, and we were tired. Very tired after that. ‘Cause you see being on an active airfield trying to get some sleep was nearly impossible because they was taking off and landing.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Taking off all day.
DK: When you got back was there a debriefing? Did you —
FS: Yeah.
DK: Did you have to speak to anyone?
FS: Yeah. When we got back obviously hand the flying gear in and have a cup of tea. Then it was debriefing of what did we see and all this that and the other. And of course it was breakfast time.
DK: And what was the breakfast?
FS: Oh, it was quite good actually. It was bacon and egg most mornings. It really was. I mean obviously the sergeant’s mess, I mean not like the ordinary squaddies as they called them. But we were supposed to get good stuff. We did alright. Yeah. I was quite pleased with it. It was quite good. And the cups of tea was quite, quite good actually.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok. I’ll just —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Stanney
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStanneyF160212
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:40:37 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Stanney was working on the land before he volunteered for the RAF. After training he flew operations as a wireless operator with 61 Squadron. One day his pilot took off as a twenty year old and returned as a twenty one year old as it was his birthday during the flight. During one particularly long operation the crew witnessed the Northern Lights.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Sassnitz
Norway--Tønsberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
61 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1144/11700/AStevensM-S160927.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stevens, Maureen and Steve
Steve Stevens
Sidney Stevens
S Stevens
Maureen Stevens
M Stevens
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sidney Stevens (Royal Air Force) and Maureen Stevens (Women's Auxiliary Air Force). Sidney Stevens flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron. His wife Maureen Stevens served as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stevens, M-S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SS: I was stationed at Abingdon I think and the —
DK: Can I just stop you there. Just introduce you. It’s David Kavanagh, International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr and Mrs Stevens at their home.
SS: Right.
DK: Sorry.
SS: That’s ok. And I, I was, one of the wireless operators, actually he was the signals officers, came along and said to me, ‘Have you seen anything like this before?’ And he had a wire, a wire recorder like the [unclear] four tapes started. And I was playing about with that and a senior officer, a group captain came along and said, ‘What are you doing with that, Stevens?’ And I said, ‘Well, an interesting machine here, sir.’ And of course, I got his voice coming back saying, ‘What are you doing with that Stevens?’ And he’d never seen this or heard of this before either as far as I know. And so he said, ‘Well, sometimes,’ he said, ‘It might be a good idea, while you’re, while it’s still fresh in your mind just to record some of one of your experiences. Or one that you could think about and put on this wire.’ So, I got the signals bloke again and we actually recorded the first bit of that on, on wire and later on it was transferred to tape. Very thin tape. And there again not a sort standard tape that we have now. One they were experimenting with. And that’s how eventually it arrived on the machine here. So that’s how the recording arrived.
DK: So the recording was made on your station in 1944.
SS: I should think, yes. It was made in 1944. Towards the end of ’44.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m just making sure the tape’s working.
SS: Yes [laughs]
DK: What I wanted to ask you is, what were you doing immediately before the war?
SS: Well, I, in nineteen thirty — I suppose it, when what really sparked me was when Chamberlain came back with his little bit of paper saying, ‘I believe this will be peace’ in your time — ‘In our time.’ And I thought to myself if he believes that he believes anything. It was quite obvious really that Hitler wasn’t going to take any notice of him. At least it was to me as a child. And so I volunteered to join the air raid precautions. Now, I started so early on this training that when the war actually broke out I was one of a small number of people who were down in control centres. So that when bombs, when air raid wardens who were dotted all over the place to give reports had to report it somewhere and the control centre was where they reported it. And it was people like me then and I was at a control centre, I suppose I was a chief of control centre there for some time in North Croydon. And there. What the Crystal Palace, the Crystal Palace, the football team there. And we had an underground shelter so all the calls came in to the, either to the north or the south underground centres. And then we had an engineer and various other experts who could deal with things like a gas, electricity, water, sewage, unexploded bombs and all that. A wide variety of things. All these things came through the control centre. We then allocated various people to do jobs. That’s what I was doing. And then one night after, just after the Battle of Britain and when it started getting dark and they were bombing London I was actually in this control centre. It was quite a voluntary job. I was doing eight hours a night once the war broke out. Not getting paid for it. It was a shilling a night for a cup of tea I think [laughs] but I got expenses. And a message came through to us saying that my house had been bombed. And so later on, I had to wait until my shift finished, obviously had to hand over to somebody and on the way home — the gas, sewage and all that sort of stuff. Blackout, formless houses. When I arrived at my road sure enough like a gap and a sort of sense of [unclear] or something like that. My house had been blown up. And that was unfortunate because my mother had been evacuated to Devon and she thought things were getting quieter and had come back to see how we were. And my father was there as well. And of course, this, this was a fairly small bomb I think. Certainly by later, the things that I was dropping later on, and when I got home I found the house was just in smithereens. It just, it just hardly existed really. Fortunately, we’d lived in Devon for a long time before we came to Devon — I mean before we came to London and so we had a very large farmhouse table. One of those things that you would put flaps in with handles underneath. So a really sturdy table. And when they heard the bombs coming down they dived under there. And the house collapsed really and the piano which was part of the furniture in the living room had fallen over and formed a little tent. And so both my parents were buried under there. My father had an enormous dent in his steel helmet I remember. An uncle who was there at the time dived underneath but couldn’t quite get the whole of his body underneath and a bit of his right side got crushed and they had to take him away to have a badly broken leg tended to. But even worse than that the lady who lived next door had said to me, ‘I’ve just got some tea here. Are you going to work?’ I said, ‘Yes. Going down to the old Report Centre.’ And she said, ‘Like a cup of tea?’ I said, ‘Oh yes please.’ So, I stopped and had a cup of tea with her because tea of course was rationed and off I went. The next I saw of this poor lady the house next door, in which she lived also had been smashed but she had been smashed against the front door like some hideous gelatinous graffiti really. Sort of splat stuff you see in comedy films sometimes. But no comedy about this of course. My next door neighbour was just smashed just like that. You could see her outline and the smell was appalling. And I stood outside at the empty sky and said, ‘You bastards. I’ll get my own back on you sometime.’ And of course, I did get my own back by becoming a bomber pilot.
DK: Was this, was this incident then instrumental in you wanting to join the RAF? Was that a spur?
SS: I think, I think at that time everybody wanted to join the RAF as a Spitfire pilot. I was one of the very few I think who decided it was heavy bombers for me. I wanted to kill more of the bastards than I could in a fighter. I mean, that’s just how I felt. And it was that really that progressed to me on to becoming a Lancaster pilot ultimately.
DK: So, what, what year did you actually join the RAF then?
SS: I think I volunteered in 1939. December I was born. In 1940. I’ve got my papers upstairs. I can check on this if you like. Then my training —
DK: So where, where was your training first of all then?
SS: Well, I trained, well first of all you had to go to a — what did they call them? Oh, an Initial Training Unit and do six weeks which was very, very and I went down to a place called Paignton. Down in Devon.
DK: Paignton. Yeah. I was there last week.
SS: That was just for the ITW.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And there we learned all the elementary stuff about the RAF. How to get on, how to salute and march about and all that sort of stuff. Also, stuff like serial flight. Beginnings of the education on navigation and signalling, Morse code and that sort of stuff, you know. By light and by buzzer. And bits about the air force law. So, we knew our training. What we were doing partly. And that course lasted about six weeks and it’s quite surprising how many people got washed out. First of all from that initial course and after that from the subsequent training unit. Some people got so far but I don’t think very many actually survived those courses to become pilots because obviously training as a pilot was very expensive, demanding in man hours and machinery and that sort of thing. So the people eventually who did become pilots were pretty well selected I think.
DK: So where was your pilot training then? Where did you go for that?
SS: Well, I started off at Carlisle where I did an elementary EFTS. Elementary Flying Training School. And then by some strange chance —
DK: That’s, that’s — sorry. That’s where you would have gone solo.
SS: Sorry?
DK: That’s where you would have gone solo.
SS: Yes. I think I’ve got one or two pictures.
DK: We can have a look later if you like.
SS: I’ll show you that later on shall I?
DK: Yeah.
SS: I’ll, I went first of all to Carlisle and then the course that I was taking after I’d gone solo was suddenly stopped because they were going to use what was called a grading course. Where they would bring people in for so long and then if they didn’t go solo or you weren’t apt they were chucked out pretty quickly. This was because they had such pressure of people wanting to get in. They were equally keen on getting quite a lot and selecting the few that were left. But also, as a sort of strange arrangement the RAF had come into, or our government had come in to contact with the Americans and they had a very few civilian flying schools which they ran on government regulations using government aircraft and that sort of thing. And I was allocated to go on those six schools in America. So I went out to the civilian flying school.
DK: This is, this in America.
SS: In America. In California.
DK: Do you remember whereabouts?
SS: A place called Lancaster in California.
DK: Right.
SS: Out on the Mojave Desert really. Plenty of room to crash an aircraft on.
DK: So, so what was it like going to America then in wartime? Was it —
SS: That’s right, yes.
DK: Was it a big, big change? Cultural change.
SS: Well, incredible really. First of all, when we, getting across the Atlantic was a bit tricky. Coming across the North Atlantic in winter was quite an experience in convoy. A rather slow running convoy and of course the troop ships were packed. It wasn’t my first experience of a troop ship because I’d been on one of these school cruises. Cost about five pounds for nine days and that sort of thing. But we, we used old troop ships and we slept in hammocks and we knew everything about sitting down on these hard board bases and that sort of caper. So I’d had that experience before going on a troop ship. So consequently I wasn’t seasick and it was fascinating going on deck for example and just watching these breakers come over the top and just freezing because they, they landed on the deck, you know. Stuff was frozen. It was cold. You couldn’t, of course take any clothes off just in case we got sunk which seemed highly likely because they, they were getting some small idea about forming convoys. We had two very old American destroyers that they’d lent us under lease lend as it was called. And it was quite an experience watching these poor destroyers try to battle against these Atlantic storms. It was bad enough on bigger troop ships but for them it must have been absolute hell. And then I went from there to Canada. Halifax in Nova Scotia. And then by train down to New Brunswick where they got a dispersal camp which was just being built. And then I got spilled out down there to take an overland, with an overland trip by rail right the way through to California. And then, there we did the sort of basic training. And then again several people wiped out. Even having got as far as that because they had already done solo in England. And then we had an intermediate course on what they called a basic trainer. And finally the Harvard. The good old Harvard which took about for fighter experience really. And the majority of people of course volunteered to be pilots, fighter pilots. They all had the idea of putting on goggles and tearing after the enemy. My idea was something different. I wanted to go, I wanted to go and bomb the bastards. And so I came back to this country and then had to learn how to fly twin-engined aircraft, and of course particularly we concentrated on flying in the dark. Completely. Completely dark and with very, very small lights to line, to enable us to land really. Some of these lights were just formed like a T. If you could imagine putting some paraffin in watering cans and sticking a knob of cotton wool in the spout. These were the so-called goosenecks as we called them. And you’d get seven of those in a line forming a T and we would use those to land in the dark which was, which cost a great number of lives. We killed a lot of people trying to teach them how to fly at night. And I was one of those who escaped again. And then having flown quite light aircraft. Twin-engined aircraft we then went to the heavier ones. Eventually used the Wellingtons which really were wonderful old warhorses. They were very well designed by Barnes Wallis of course who talked about this. And they were flexible. I would say they were not an easy, easy aircraft to fly I think. And then from there I went to an aircraft called a Manchester which were like a twin-engined Lanc. An absolute bloody awful aircraft to fly.
DK: What was, what was wrong, what was wrong with the Manchester then?
SS: The Manchester had two great big engines mounted in tandem as it was. You had two propellers. Just, just two engines. One on each side. The propellers were huge. The, they, very very quickly oiled up if you tried to taxi any, at any speed and the brakes too used to get absolutely red hot. So it was very difficult taxiing them I thought. And I just did a few flights on one of those by day and night and eventually went from there to a Lancaster. Well, the course was very very short. I had never seen a Lancaster at the beginning of April. And this is 1943 by the time I got there. And I went on to the squadron. I had only done about a half a dozen landings I think in a Lancaster and I was thought operationally fit and went across to Scampton where I joined number 57 Squadron which I did the rest of my tour. It’s also very interesting where you were crewed up. We moved about for a bit, pilots and navigators and eventually crews more or less picked themselves. In that I was rather unlucky because my first navigator was a hugely impressive man. Very tall. You know. Six foot four tall. Something like that. Very public school character. Nicely spoken and so on. And he’d had his uniform, standard uniform nicely lined with silk and that sort of stuff. He came over to me one day and said, ‘Would you mind if I were your navigator skipper?’ So I said, ‘Well, can you navigate?’ ‘Oh yes. Of course. Of course. Of course. No trouble at all.’ So I said, ‘Right, we’ll try you for navigator then.’ And then the others sort of came and joined us in various ways. Except I hadn’t got a flight engineer. We didn’t have flight engineers on a Wellington and I got appointed a chap who was an absolute disaster. You only had to look at him really. First of all his eyesight was poor. He had long great big goggles on with lenses in. He was altogether a sort of under confident and so on. And when I went on my first, my first trip on a Manchester I see he was promptly sick all over the throttle box. Which wasn’t a very nice start for me or for him. And so he got thrown off because he was sick and I never saw him again. And I didn’t have another flight engineer until I was nearing the end of my training when quite suddenly the engineer arrived. Which was useful. And then the navigator who was absolutely useless. I went out one morning over Ely and I said to him, ‘Right. Navigator. Can you tell me where we are?’ A long long long pause. And I thought crikey. I’d been over Ely Cathedral three or four times and done circuits of it. I said, ‘Do you know where we are navigator?’ Hadn’t got a clue. ‘Sorry skipper, I haven’t got my maps. I’ll just get, take up a moment or two.’ And when I landed my wireless op said to me, ‘I don’t want to worry you skip,’ he said, ‘But look at the note I got from navigator.’ And he’d written, he’d written the wireless op a note, “Get me a fix for Christ’s sake.” So, I thought well if you’re going to get lost on the way to Ely that’s not much good. So I went and saw my flight commander who said, ‘Well, you can’t change him now. He’s a darned nice bloke,’ and he gave me all sorts of [unclear] He was a good bloke. Had a pair of Purdey guns and the wife, oh my goodness me. She was a sixteen [cylinder?] model you know. Turned up in large Lagonda to a hotel. They went and stayed, he went and stayed overnight with her. But he was a good social chap. He knew the, knew the local landowners by name and that sort of stuff but as a navigator he was useless. I couldn’t get rid of him because everybody there was convinced he was such a fine chap. Except I was coming back from, still on the training stage on Lancaster and he suddenly says. ‘My skipper. My ears, my ears.’ Because that was how he spoke you see. So I said, ‘What about your ears navigator?’ He said, ‘My ears. My ears are popping.’ So I said, ‘Well, they’re likely to. Just breathe in, blow your cheeks out, they’ll pop out again.’ And he was still yelling about this so I said, ‘Right. Hold on then. Very quickly I’ll get you back to base.’ So, I lowered the wheels and flaps and got down very smartly and went up to flying control and said my navigator was sick. Seemed to have some ear trouble. And the doctor whipped him away and then I got him later replaced by a little snaggle toothed chap. About thirty I suppose. And he was very competent. He was my navigator for most of the rest of the tour. Yes. So that was it really. How to get rid of the navigator. Wait till he’s got ear trouble and do a dive and pop his ears out. Which is why I’m deaf now [laughs] because I got the same treatment [laughs]
DK: Apart, apart from the unfortunate navigator did you think it worked well? That the crews more or less found themselves.
SS: Well, mine wouldn’t have don certainly. Mine would have been a dead loss. I wouldn’t have given myself a couple of trips with a crew with that particular chap. The flight engineer and this disastrous toff really as a, as a navigator. I wouldn’t have got very far.
DK: No.
SS: But by a piece of luck.
DK: So, so what were your thoughts now about the Lancaster as an aircraft?
SS: Oh superb.
DK: That was a Lancaster.
SS: It was infinitely better than any other heavy aircraft. It had, the great disadvantage was that really it was an aircraft built around a bomb carrier. It carried the maximum amount and weight of bomb for the size of the air frame and consequently the last people who seemed to be thought about were the aircrew. And there was a long and devious method of getting into the, into the pilot’s seat. And the navigator was in a very cramped space and the, so was the wireless op. They were really in light-proof cabins anyway. But they were very very small. And when you think, I don’t know if you’ve seen the navigators charts, Mercator charts but as they had difficult getting and manoeuverating their, I’m sorry manoeuvring their navigating equipment and the charts and keeping the plot going. Somehow or other they did it. And there again the poor old wireless op had a pretty small cabin to work in. There wasn’t really a decent second pilot’s seat either for the engineer to sit at and it could have been better. And of course the, the rear turret was absolutely isolated from the rest of the aircraft. Small, fairly small door and when they got in they had to leave their parachutes outside. Which was all very well until you had an emergency. It was very difficult to get hold of the damn thing then. You had to open the door, sort of fall out backwards I think to get out of the aircraft. So, you didn’t get very many Lancaster aircrew surviving when they were hit. Not compared with other aircraft anyway.
DK: So, all your operations then were with 57 Squadron were they?
SS: They were. Yes.
DK: And they were all flying from Scampton.
SS: Yes. Oh no. No. I did twenty from, I did twenty trips approximately from Scampton and ten from East Kirkby which had just opened at that time.
DK: And how many operations did you do?
SS: Well, I did actually thirty trips. I think, I think twenty nine operations because one of them was a bit of a disaster. But that was the fault of a poor aircraft I think.
DK: And the earlier recording was of you where you were attacked by a night fighter.
SS: Yes.
DK: And your engine’s damaged. How many times did that happen? How many times were you — ?
SS: Well —
DK: Coming back on three engines or less.
SS: Oh. No. Three engines was enough actually with damaged aircraft. No. You got minor damage quite frequently but it wasn’t — I suppose I compare it to being in a hail storm really. You hear the stuff beating about and you get small holes in the fuselage which was where I suppose you could put a sharp pencil through the fuselage if you tried hard. So it didn’t, didn’t offer any real, any real protection. But I think I was hit by flak enough to give you a forced landing at the nearest airfield when I got back to England twice. I’ve got my logbook somewhere. I could look it up. I’ve still got my logbook upstairs and I’ve got a small computer thing which was made by my flight engineer as well. So, that gives probably a different idea of what went on because some people wrote great reams in their log books but this was considered bad manners in 57 Squadron. So generally the pilots just wrote DCA which meant did he carry it out? Or DNCO duty not carried out for various reasons?
DK: Right. Mrs Stevens, can I, can I ask you a few questions? When did you join the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force?
MS: The WAAF. I joined in June 1941.
DK: Ok. And you were actually based at Scampton as well then were you?
MS: Yes. I was. And I was in 5 Group which was in Lincolnshire. And I’d been on several stations. Bomber Command stations. I started at Waddington and then I went to Swinderby. Then to Skellingthorpe. And then a Conversion Unit at Wigsley. And I was posted to Scampton in May. I honestly can’t remember the date at all but it was just a few days before the dams raid.
DK: Did you, did you know what the dams squadron were doing then? Was it —
MS: Not, not at all.
SS: No.
DK: No.
MS: I had no idea of where the aircraft were going. I knew nothing about it at all. They used to simply take off. They took off because they were given a green light from a caravan at the end of the runway. And they took off. As they took off the pilot’s name was on the board. Time of take-off. Never, never saw the target or anything like that.
DK: Right.
MS: And the only time you spoke to the pilot was on the way back when he called up. And as they called up you would give them a height to fly. The first one, for example you would say, if the runway was clear, you would say, ‘Pancake.’ Which meant that he could come in to land. And then the second one would call up. You would say, ‘Aerodrome one thousand.’ The third one would say, you would give him, ‘Fly around at fifteen hundred feet.’ In other words they were stacked at five hundred feet intervals. During this time of course the squadron had a call sign. The station had a call sign. There was quite a normal procedure that you had to go through and you had to verify who they were of course. And then you would bring them in one at a time to land. It was a very good job. Very exciting job. Very sad of course at times. And as they came back you would put the time of arrival on the board. On the same line of course as —
DK: Yeah.
MS: When the pilot took off. And you put the time of arrival. If they didn’t come back, well you just simply left it blank. I didn’t do it. They had a, the control officer was there and we took all our instructions from him and conveyed them directly to the pilot. We had also a logbook and that, you would log everything that the pilot said, and you said and there again you would put the take-off time and time of arrival. And any conversation at all that took place.
DK: And so that was really your, your world then. Within the control tower itself.
SS: Yes.
DK: So between them taking off, going on the operation and coming back what were you doing then? Did you just wait?
MS: Well, what we did then we used to listen out to what we called, “Darkie,” calls. I mean if I said they were Mayday calls you would —
DK: Yeah.
MS: Be more familiar with them and you obviously didn’t get them every night but Lincolnshire was — very often they had very bad mists and fogs and things during that time. And sometimes you would get a stray aircraft. He would call up and ask where he was. And there again you would go through the normal procedure. Asking him where he came from and once it was alright then you proceeded to bring him in to land. And sometimes it was a very, very difficult job for the control officer. He would be on the balcony outside firing verey pistols and things like that and communicating all the time on the radio telephone. And the officer in charge would relate to me messages and he would come back. And eventually you would get them down or probably they just needed to know where they were. But we had, I was on duty one night and the officer in control, he was a Canadian. And I remember that one particularly because it took ages for this poor chap to get down. I can’t honestly remember whether he ran out of fuel or whether — I don’t, he certainly didn’t crash but he was very, very grateful to get down. We got him down and he came up into the control tower afterwards and thanked us.
DK: That’s nice to know.
MS: Oh, it was a lovely, it was a lovely job and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I found it very nerve wracking at first.
DK: I can imagine.
MS: Having not been away from home.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I mean, we didn’t travel in those days like the young people travel today. But —
DK: So, what, what made you join the WAAF then? Was it —
MS: Well, as a matter of fact on the age of eighteen you had to do some sort of war work and I actually volunteered for the Wrens.
DK: Right.
MS: And they deferred me for six months. And I volunteered for the Wrens because my father had been a regular serviceman in the Royal Marines and that was really my choice. But anyway, I was called up during that six months and joined the WAAFs. I wasn’t sorry. I was delighted. It was a lovely job.
DK: So, at Scampton then there was both 57 and 617 Squadron.
MS: Yes.
DK: There then. So were you actually on duty —
MS: Yes.
DK: The day the —
MS: Yes.
DK: Dambusters returned.
MS: Yes. I remember nothing about it at all except going off duty at 8 o’clock that morning.
DK: And this —
MS: As far as I was concerned it was simply another raid.
DK: Another operation.
MS: There again, people said to me did you have friends? You know, did the chaps date you and all that sort of thing. Well, of course not. They were, they were far too interested in flying their planes and getting back from war. And as far as I was concerned — no. It [pause] they were simply names put on a board.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I knew, I knew one chappie there. Mickey Martin. An Australian pilot who flew P for Popsi, I think. He used to call it P for Popsi. And yes. That’s how it was known and, but I only knew him through work because we’d been on other stations prior to —
DK: Right.
MS: Arriving at Scampton.
DK: So how, how did you two both meet then? What’s the story behind that?
MS: Well, I think, I think, if you really want to know I think it was when my husband on Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
DK: Right.
MS: And he was interested in my voice and he came up to see what I looked like.
DK: So that was before he joined 57 Squadron then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Oh right.
MS: Yes. In fact, I think Steve, you said to me afterwards he joined, he went to 57 Squadron on Lancs of course then. He converted from Manchesters to Lancasters at this RAF station called Wigsley. And he remembered being posted on the 1st of May. I have no idea when I was posted but I was posted from, well I think I went [pause] honestly. Where was I? Wigsley? I can’t honestly remember.
SS: Yes. You were at Wigsley. Yes.
MS: Yes, of course. It was. Wigsley.
SS: Wigsley to Scampton.
MS: Of course it was. That was where you were on Conversion Unit and I was on duty there. He recognised my voice. Waited for me to come off duty so that he could say hello to me.
DK: So he recognised your voice from Wigsley.
MS: Yes. Yes.
DK: And when you got to Scampton came up.
MS: Yes. He did. Yes. In fact, I was, when I went into the WAAFs I thought probably I would do some sort of clerical work or something like that. And no. They, I was, saw, I think he was a squadron leader. I know he was a commissioned rank and oh he said, ‘I’ve got another job for you.’ And he was telling me we were going in the control tower and we were actually picked for our voices.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: And, as I say it was a very interesting job. A bit nerve wracking at first. I was very nervous. Very frightened.
DK: Presumably you were chosen because you had a very clear voice. Was that what they were looking for?
MS: Probably. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So —
MS: Is it still clear?
DK: It’s very clear. Yes.
MS: Well, I’m ninety seven in December. Or will be.
DK: I wouldn’t believe that.
MS: I’m — my toyboy husband here will be ninety five in December. And on the 4th of December it will be — we will have been married seventy three years.
DK: Congratulations.
MS: So there we are.
DK: Yeah.
MS: The Lord’s been very good to us. We’re a couple of poor totteries now aren’t we darling?
SS: Yeah. Quite the —
DK: How do you, can I ask you Mr Stevens how do you look back now on your time in the RAF and with, particularly with Bomber Command.
SS: Well, it was an interesting time. It’s not the sort of thing I would recommend any growing young man because the casualty rate was enormous. When I arrived at Scampton first of all I was a sergeant pilot. Goodness knows why some people got through the course and were sergeants, others were officers. I don’t know. Because some of the people who failed the pilot’s course then became navigators or bomb aimers and many of them became commissioned. So consequently you’d got the ludicrous situation arising one night where I had a flying officer wireless operator and a flight lieutenant rear gunner and yet there I was a sergeant pilot. As soon as, as soon as you got to the aircraft it was the skipper. It was the pilot who was in charge. Nobody else. No doubt about that at all. But it could have led to awkward situations but —
DK: So, even though you were a sergeant you were in charge of the aircraft. Even though there could have been an officer.
SS: That’s right.
DK: The navigator or —
SS: Yes. I mean there was one chap I picked up one night as a wireless op and I thought he was a bit quiet so I said to one of the other members of the crew, the flight engineer, I said, ‘Go and see what’s happened to that wireless op. I haven’t heard from him lately.’ He was asleep. He was asleep because he’d been drinking too much. So when the trip was over I went along to him and said, ‘You’re not flying with me again. I’ll never take you aboard. If it’s suggested, I think for a moment you’re smelling of whisky and tonight you bloody well slept. The crew could have been dying. If we had needed an SOS now you’d have been incompetent.’ I said, ‘I really ought to report you but I just shall refuse to have you as a crew member again.’ If that sort of situation arose you just had to tick these people off irrespective of rank. And that was just the situation. I did get commissioned later one night. I became a flight sergeant of course. It’s all, as far as pay was concerned there was no difference of a pay grade between a flight sergeant and what was a flying officer. So, that, it wasn’t really the money. As far as I was concerned there was a great advantage because I went, when I went to Scampton there was a nice married quarter, had been a married quarter which was right on the, near flying control. Right on the edge of the airfield near the taxi track. And our crew fitted that very nicely. And as I say consequently I didn’t, you didn’t find yourself with half the crew sergeants and half the crew officers. We were all, sort of sergeants together which was a great help. And then later on when I got commissioned for a little while I still went on as I was at Scampton and I went on living in this place. Nobody took any notice I was there. I said, ‘Look, I I really would rather stay with my crew.’ But when I got to East Kirkby, the adjutant there. The man with an amazing stutter. He said, ‘Why are you in the sergeant’s,’ whatever it was, mess. So I said, ‘Well it’s because it’s my people there.’ He said, ‘If you were an officer you’d have —’ I said, ‘I haven’t had time to get a uniform which makes me an officer.’ I got twenty four hours to rush down to London. Buy a uniform which nearly fitted and go back again and go in to the officer’s mess. My training for that was as short as that.
DK: So, so what year did you leave the RAF then?
SS: Oh I, I actually, when the war was over my number —
MS: You wanted to stay in didn’t you?
SS: I thought first of all I wouldn’t mind staying in this as a career really. And then I had a rather curious job because when the war was over lots and lots of people were, came back from overseas. Some of whom had very nice cushy jobs out there you know. And others not quite so cushy. And of course the poor devils, I always felt sorry for the Japanese prisoners of war. And the air force had put out a sort of regulation that people who’d trained as pilots would have to show some ability to fly before they could retain whatever their wartime rank was.
DK: Right.
SS: And I went to Abingdon where I was made a unit master pilot. Which meant by that time I’d qualified in all sorts of ways as an instructor and I used to take these people on some, I’d lots of group captains and wing commanders in my log book. I was taking to show them to fly heavier aircraft because the war with Japan was still going on then you see and —
DK: Did you expect to be going out to the Far East then?
SS: I wouldn’t have been surprised. Yes. I thought that might have been the next move but just for the time I was preparing somebody else to go which was a lot safer really [laughs]. So that, that was a most interesting job and on one occasion I was taking a wing commander up and the following day he said, ‘Look Steve,’ he said, ‘I’ve just become your commanding officer.’ He said, I’m now known as the chief flying instructor and I know I can’t fly nearly as well as you.’ So, I said, ‘Alright. we’ll iron that out between us.’ And he was a very nice chap indeed. He had, I’ll just sort of divert a bit. This chap had been a prisoner of war and he’d been taken, sometimes you don’t think how far flung the war was. And he’d been taken in the Japanese war in Surabaya. Right out the Dutch East Indies. And it was the Dutch East Indies. And he was put into a jail there and he said they were so crammed that people just couldn’t lie down. They were so, so crushed. And one of the blokes there, one of the officers complained and said, ‘Look, we can’t lie up. We can’t sit down. We can’t do anything comfortably.’ ‘Well that’s alright,’ said the Japanese and promptly bayoneted two or three people. Chopped the heads off others, you know and said, ‘That’s made a bit of room for you.’ Just chucked the bodies out and that was the bit of room they made. Then he was put in a prisoner of war camp and just working with the rest and one day, oh he got caught by the secret police because they’d been doing some small work for the Japanese and he showed them how to sabotage the work so it would never, never sort of get on with it. And he thought, they sent for him and they actually threw him over them prison wall. And every time they threw bodies over they would have some sort of food, grizzly old rice and that sort of stuff attached to it. He lived on that for about six months. Just like that. Out in the mud burying bodies and eating what he could really. Dying. They hoped he’d die. Anyway, suddenly one day he was sent to go back inside and he thought, ‘Right. This is my lot. I’m bound to be executed.’ So, he goes back inside. To his amazement the commandment bows to him and does all that sort of rubbish you know and said, ‘You’re now the commanding officer because we’ve been defeated.’ So, that was a huge promotion for him. A strange man. Strangely enough of course he’d been one with these people in Surabaya, mainly the Dutch. And the Dutch government or the English government sent a small force. First of all the Dutch government sent out some troops to re-occupy, to re-occupy Surabaya and they failed. And the natives, they were actually treated very badly. The ones they took as prisoners they crucified to doors and things like that. He was telling me some horrible, some horrible stories about that. But of course he went along. By then he could speak their language. He’d been in jail with them, he said, ‘Just a minute. I’m on your side don’t forget.’ So he wasn’t, he wasn’t sort of pulled out of jail or hanged or executed. They just kept him as a pal. And then we sent some troops over under a brigadier called Mallaby. And the Dutch, these, these Javanese were preparing to, whoever again small parties and again he said, ‘You can’t do that. They’re on my side. We’re pals.’ And so Mallaby got killed or something and he took over the British Army Force there and sort of settled them in fairly, relatively happily until more relief arrived. And the bloke who got a DSO as a prisoner of war. It was a real unusual story. The name was Groom and he was an Australian that started —
DK: Can you remember his name?
SS: Sorry?
DK: Do you remember his name?
SS: Ah yes. I think the name was Groom G R O O M. A D Groom, and a very nice chap indeed. Anyway, I meanwhile had sort of seen the air force contracting almost immediately after that and people started getting demobbed. Demobbed. And so they said, ‘Well if you apply to do this you’ll get your permanent commission.’ I thought I’m not sure I want to now because she had been demobbed and we had a baby and I thought I don’t really want to get posted overseas and see the family split up and so on. So I had compulsorily to work. To do another eighteen months instructing before they let me go. But after I’d been instructing the extra year I had got a job at a training college which I wanted to do. To take up teaching. So, I then got released for this extra six months providing I sort of joined the RAF VR and did some weekend flying and all that sort of stuff. Just in case there was another war. Which there damn well was actually. They called me up for it. That was a very short service. Because as usual the RAF had demobbed too many people. There weren’t too many aircraft. There wasn’t really an aircraft for me us fly so after a fortnight up there we came home again. We’d just got this house and inside three months I got this call up notice again [unclear]. So that was rather sad but anyway I went off to do a fortnight’s flying and then they decided to let me go again because they didn’t have much of a job for me really.
DK: Was this the time of Korea then? Or —
SS: Sorry?
DK: Was this the time of Korea you got called up again?
SS: That’s right. Yes. It was the Korean War.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But the —
MS: Was that about ’52 wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
SS: I forgot the time of it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: It was very early on.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Something like that.
DK: So, Mrs Stevens how do you feel about your time in the RAF then?
MS: Oh, we live, we still live RAF. We’ve been to so many reunions and we used to, a few years ago we used to always go up to the reunions and stay at the Petwood Hotel.
DK: Yes.
MS: And even now I’m trying to remember the village it’s in and I can’t.
DK: Woodhall Spa.
MS: How right you are. I could have done with you the other day. Somebody was asking me where it was. Woodhall Spa just didn’t come.
DK: My wife and I have stayed there several times. It’s a lovely hotel.
MS: Lovely.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Well, we —
DK: We’ve taken our dogs there as well.
MS: Do you live in Lincolnshire?
DK: Yes. Just south of, north of Stamford and south of Grantham.
MS: Yes. South of Grantham.
DK: South of Grantham. So we’re often at Woodhall Spa. Walking the dogs at the Petwood.
MS: Lovely.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Well, we used to go up for three day breaks fairly often. And we loved it. Oh yes. We, we’re just RAF. I think both my husband and I, if I hadn’t have married I would have stayed in.
DK: Right.
MS: Without any doubt at all. I loved the life. Discipline didn’t come hard to me at all.
SS: No. Her father had been a sergeant major in the Marines and he so he disciplined all the children very well when he was at home to do it but he was actually dealing with anti-slavery training along the African coast.
DK: Right.
SS: Zanzibar was a particular place he used to talk about and he was actually demobbed before the First World War and then he was recalled again for that.
MS: Yes. Then he actually —
SS: He was recalled for the Second World War.
MS: Yes he was. This last war he was called. They put him on digging trenches. He was in his sixties then. But yes.
DK: Ok. That’s great. I’ll stop there. Thanks very much for all of that. That’s wonderful.
MS: Tell me about —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maureen and Sidney Stevens
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStevensM-S160927, PStevensS-M1601, PStevensS-M1602, PStevensS-M1603
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:06 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney was inspired to join The Air Force when he was working as an Air Raid Precaution Warden and one night his own home was bombed. The house next door was also destroyed and the lady who had offered him a cup of tea only hours earlier died. He undertook his training in the United States and then flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron at RAF Scampton. Maureen joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force and worked as a wireless operator in the control tower at RAF Wigsley and RAF Scampton. Sidney and Maureen Stevens met while Sidney was training at the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Wigsley. They met again when both were based at RAF Scampton when Sidney wanted to meet again the lady whose voice had guided him back again to base from the control tower.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1944
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
control tower
crewing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
RAF Wigsley
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force