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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/733/9288/ACarswellA170614.1.mp3
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Title
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Carswell, Andrew
A Carswell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Andrew Carswell AFC (b. 1923). He flew operations as a pilot with 9 Squadron but was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Carswell, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Ok. So, I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Andy Carswell on the 14th of June, I always get the dates wrong. 2017.
AC: 13th. Isn’t it March the 13th?
DC: 14th.
DK: Oh, it’s the 14th . Yeah.
AC: 14th eh?
DK: 14th. 14th of June 2017 at his home in Toronto. I’ll just make sure that I said Toronto. Make sure everybody knows I’m here. So, if I just put that there.
AC: Now, you have the address of the home in Toronto and all that.
DK: Yeah. I’ve got all the address. Yeah.
AC: That’s good.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m not being rude I’m just making sure it’s working. There’s been a couple of occasions when I’ve been beaten by the technology when the battery has just stopped or something.
AC: I see.
DK: Right. Yeah. I think we’re ok.
AC: Do I have to speak any louder than normal or —
DK: No. Just, just speak normally. Just sound like that.
AC: That’s good. That’s good.
DK: Firstly, what I wanted to ask you was what were you doing immediately before the war started?
AC: Ok. I was going to high school. I was, immediately before the war started I guess I would be about sixteen years old or so. And just before my eighteenth birthday the principal of the high school I was going to — I was in Grade 12 and in those days you needed twelve grades in order to graduate in to university.
DK: Right.
AC: But they changed it. The timing on the thing so that you had to have thirteen grades. So, I was at the end of my twelfth grade. I was just coming up to eighteen years old and the principal, in one of his lectures said, ‘Anybody who wants to do war work can get off early.’ And so of course I stuck my hand up and said, ‘Yes, I want to do war work.’ And so I got off early and the first thing I did was I went downtown to the RCAF Recruiting Unit.
DK: Right.
AC: On my eighteen birthday. I was eighteen years old and I walked in there and they said, ‘What do you want?’ I said, ‘I want to join the Air Force.’ They said, ‘Oh. What do you want to be?’ And of course everybody watched the movies. I said, ‘I want to be a pilot.’ So they said, ‘Ok.’ And they put me in and I went to, to the local unit in the Toronto International Exhibition there and, at Upper Avenue Road, and they sent me to, to Belleville. They had taken a school for the deaf and dumb and kicked everybody out.
DK: Right.
AC: And I don’t know what they did with them. And they put us in there and some of us were sort of dumb too [laughs] but anyway we were selected there on the basis of various tests to be pilots, air gunners, or navigators.
DK: Right.
AC: And you had to be smart to be a navigator. And you had to, you had to be, I guess a good shot to be an air gunner so I was trained as a pilot. So, they selected me as a pilot and they sent me to, right off the bat to what’s the name of the place?
DC: Goderich.
AC: Goderich. Yeah. A little town on the Lake Huron and where there was a civil airport operating and there were volunteer instructors at that time. And there I soloed. Learned to fly an aeroplane. And then they sent me a couple of hundred miles away. Down to a place called Bradford which is also in Ontario. And they, they were flying Avro Ansons.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The very first order of Avro Ansons where you had to crank the undercarriage up and down by hand. And so I graduated from there as a pilot and I got to wear a pair of wings and I was a sergeant pilot.
DK: Did you, did you find learning to fly easy? Is it something that came naturally to you?
AC: Oh yes. It was very easy for me because I had spent most of my time outdoors. I was in the Boys Scouts.
DK: Right.
AC: And I did a lot of hiking and that kind of thing. And so they gave me a couple of weeks leave and then they sent me to England. Here I was, still just a little over eighteen by then I guess. And, and in England I went to Bournemouth where all the Canadians went.
DK: Just, just going back a bit how did you come over to England? Were you on one of the —
AC: On a ship. A boat.
DK: Right. Yeah.
AC: I forget the name of it. It was a — had normally been a freighter, I think.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And I was not too, not too — my memory is kind of clogged there with all the other things that are in it. But anyhow I went over by ship, you know. Evading the German submarines and so forth.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And eventually we ended up in Bournemouth. And in Bournemouth they sent me to, on more training. And I took three or four different courses on different kinds of aircraft. Getting larger, larger and larger from the smallest multi-engine aircraft to, to things like the DC3 and whatnot. And finally they put me on the Lincoln. Which was the brother of the Lancaster but it had different engines in it and it would only fly on one engine if one engine quit.
DK: Was that the Manchester?
AC: The Manchester. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: They put me on the Manchester.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And nobody liked the Manchester because they knew that if one engine quit the other one wasn’t enough to keep it going.
DK: Right.
AC: So, anyway and then they graduated me up to the Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And I spent several weeks or a month or two flying the Lancaster and then they sent me up to number 9 Squadron.
DK: What did, what did you think of the Lancaster as an aircraft? Was it —
AC: Oh, great. The Lancaster itself was a very good aircraft and it was as easy to fly as the Avro Anson or any of the other aircraft. It wasn’t very cosy inside like the American aircraft. The Americans had lots of nice cushions in their front seats [laughs] And all kinds of good lighting and whatnot. And the Lancaster was just basically the controls that you needed and the — that was, that was basically all there was. You had your rudders. And there was no, no engine activated controls, you know. Everything was done.
DK: Manually.
AC: By force of —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: Force of habit.
DK: Had you, had you joined up with your crew at this point?
AC: No. No.
DK: Oh. Right then.
AC: They sent me to number 9 Squadron. And then they had a [pause] I’ve been trying to — that’s a good question. I’m trying to remember where they had the — I think we had the crew selection before I got to 9 Squadron.
DK: Right.
AC: And then people would go around saying, ‘Look. I’m a navigator. Do you want a navigator?’
DK: Was that then —
AC: ‘I’m a rear gunner,’ and all that.
DK: Right.
AC: So, anyway that was supposed to be my selection but I didn’t know any of the other people involved. I just picked people who looked like nice fellows [laughs] and we ended up with a crew of seven or so.
DK: And was the rest of your crew, were they Canadian or were they British?
AC: They were a mixture. The flight engineer was Scottish.
DK: Right.
AC: Jock Martin his name was and —
DC: Paddy Hipson.
AC: Paddy Hipson was Irish. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And what else have I got? I had a couple of English guys. My wife’s got a better memory than I have. She, she, we’ve been married seventy years and she can still remember every bad thing I ever did [laughs]
DC: There was three Canadians besides you.
AC: Who, who were they? Three Canadian besides me eh?
DC: [unclear] The fellow that froze to death.
AC: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DC: And —
AC: That was my navigator.
DC: And then there was —
AC: That navigator was a Canadian and he was just —
DC: Claude Clemens.
AC: Claude Clemens was a Canadian. He was a rear gunner. Yeah.
DC: West Ontario.
AC: That’s right.
DK: Was that — I’ve got your crew here as yourself. Sergeant Martin.
AC: Martin. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: That’s Scottish.
DC: Martin.
DK: Scottish. And what was he then?
AC: He was the flight engineer.
DK: Flight engineer. Galbraith. Galbraith.
AC: Galbraith. Yeah.
DC: He’s the one that froze to death.
AC: Yeah. Galbraith was the navigator. He was a Canadian.
DK: He was the navigator. Hipson?
AC: Harry Hipson was English.
DC: Irish.
DK: English. Irish?
AC: Scottish.
DK: He was Scottish.
AC: Scottish. And what was he then? The wireless operator?
AC: Hipson [pause] Oh, I know. He was the, not the — bombardier.
DK: Ah bombardier. Yeah. And then Sergeant Phillips.
AC: Sergeant Phillips.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Sergeant Phillips.
DC: Eddy Phillips.
AC: Eddy Phillips.
DC: The one that got a leg broken on the march.
AC: Yeah. That was Eddy Phillips was, I’m glad you’re here Dot to remind me of these things. Eddy Phillips was a part of our crew and he broke his leg after we landed.
DK: Right.
AC: And he moved about in different hospitals. I never saw him again.
DK: Oh right.
AC: But he didn’t die. He got home ok apparently.
DC: What did he do in the aircraft?
AC: Eddie Phillips was a mid-upper gunner.
DK: Air gunner.
AC: I think that’s what he was.
DK: And I’ve got Sergeant De Silva.
AC: De Silva. Yeah.
DC: English fellow.
AC: Oh. He was a mid-upper gunner. Yeah. Sergeant De Silva.
DC: De Silva. Yes.
AC: De Silva. And —
DC: His parachute didn’t open.
AC: And he was killed because his parachute didn’t open.
DK: Right.
AC: With him improperly loaded up into the aircraft, I guess.
DK: And then Sergeant Clemens, I think it says.
AC: Claude.
DC: Yes.
AC: Claude Clemens was the rear gunner. Yeah.
DK: He was the rear gunner. Ok.
AC: And he was a Canadian.
DK: Right. Ok.
AC: He just died a while ago.
DK: Ok.
AC: Big talker.
DC: Twelve years ago.
AC: I’m surprised that they’re still sending people out because I’m one of the youngest of the whole lot and I’m ninety four and Dorothy is ninety five. We’ve been married seventy years.
DK: Years. Well, congratulations.
AC: She remembers every year of it [laughs] Sometimes that’s not a good thing.
DK: Don’t ask me how long I’ve been married. Twenty two years. There you are.
AC: Twenty two years eh. Well, there you go.
Other: We’ve got a long way to go.
DK: [unclear]
AC: Anyway, so that’s, that’s how we got crewed up.
DK: Right. So, you were —
AC: As you know, that they normally the captain of the aircraft was normally commissioned and he was —
DK: Yeah.
AC: Started off as flying officer and then went to flight lieutenant and so forth. Well, on my first trip I was a sergeant pilot. I was the only pilot on board a Lancaster and I was only a sergeant. And there was no other, no other officers in the crew of course.
DK: Right.
AC: And they sent me on a couple of trips with other people just to see how I did and I would take the flight engineer’s spot because they only had one pilot in those aeroplanes. And then they put me on operations fairly shortly after that. And the first trip was fairly normal, I think.
DK: Can you remember where that was too?
AC: To, to Berlin.
DK: So, your first trip was to Berlin.
AC: And the second trip was to Berlin.
DK: Right.
AC: And then they stopped it. They lost so many aircraft that they stopped it for a while. They had aircraft going down all over the place. In fact when we were shot down we were about half way between [pause] what’s the name of that little town? I can’t remember now.
DC: Well, John took you on that trip.
AC: Yeah.
DC: To retrace your steps.
AC: Yeah. I’m just thinking yeah. But anyway, it was about half way between the [pause]
DC: Do you have any? You can look.
No. No. I don’t have any notes.
DC: Yeah.
AC: We weren’t supposed to take notes.
DC: We went to the wrong place when we were in Germany.
AC: Yeah. We went down to that town.
DC: You sat opposite.
AC: Where I got shot down.
DK: So, so this was the fourth operation then was it? You were shot down.
AC: Yeah.
DK: Can, can you say a little about what actually happened on that particular operation?
AC: Well, we were, we were at twenty thousand feet or so and a, and a barrage of flak came up around us and the next thing I noticed the navigator was pointing at the right hand engine. And the right hand engine was on fire and the fire was creeping towards the gas tanks. It still had a thousand gallons or more gasoline in them. So, I, I gave the order to bale out and so the rear gunner baled out, and the mid-upper gunner baled out and the mid-upper gunner’s parachute didn’t open as you know. The rear gunner, he only died a few years ago. And the rest of the crew all got out but my navigator who had recently been married and he was so anxious to get home he didn’t care what was wrong with the aeroplane. He kept saying, ‘You should go. Take — ’ such and such a course. And so we had a bit of an argument and I said, ‘If you don’t go out I’ll go out ahead of you because we’re going straight down.’ The aeroplane was on fire by then. And so he finally went out and I went out and that was it. And then I found myself in a tree and I [pause] that’s all in that book anyway, I think.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And I decided I’d walk towards Switzerland [laughs] which was a stupid idea. But I was walking pretty well all night and eventually I realised that I had two choices. Either give myself up or just hide in the woods until I froze to death. And I didn’t think that was a very good thing to do so I walked a little farther and I saw a farmhouse in the distance, down a side road. And I went down there and I knocked on the door of the farmhouse. Some woman opened a, opened a window up above and yelled something at me. And I just said, ‘It’s pretty cold out here. Let me in.’ [laughs] The next thing I know I hear is a crunching noise in the side driveway and this little old guy with a gun almost as big as himself came out, pointed it at me. And I said, ‘Don’t shoot.’ And then the wife came out and yelled something at him. And they decided to take me in. And I went into their living room and they had a Chesterfield about that size there and they told me to sit down there. And I sat down there and fell asleep. When I woke up again there was a great crowd of people wandering around and looking at me. And a little boy was looking at my arm here. It said Canada on it. He said, ‘Oh, Canada.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And then everybody sort of thought that I understood German. Which I didn’t. And eventually a car pulled up with a couple of Nazi soldiers in it and they made sure that I didn’t have a weapon on me. And then they put me on the car. They took me down to the town hall which was — oh it’s in that book there anyway.
DK: That’s all right. Christine, can you have a look through there and see if you can find out the town he parachuted into? Just see if you can find it.
AC: I was trying to think of the name. I had a beer there too. Not after I got shot down but after.
DK: Yeah. When you went back.
AC: When I went back with me wife.
DK: You didn’t get a beer the day you were shot down then.
DC: He went back with John.
DK: Yeah.
DC: Our son took Andy back.
Oh yeah. That’s right. You weren’t with me on that one were you?
DC: And John has a very very good memory [unclear]
CK: Was it Zerbst?
AC: Pardon?
CK: Zerbst Town Hall. Z E R B S T.
AC: Zerbst.
CK: Zerbst.
AC: Yeah. Z E R B S T. Zerbst.
DK: Yeah.
AC: We were quite close to there when we got shot down. And so, I was, I was kept in a private room with a young fellow with a gun sitting there. And finally he went out to get something to eat and he came back and said something to me and he offered me some food too. So, he gave me something to eat. I had a sandwich along with him. And then I stayed there for a day. And the next day a bunch of soldiers came in and marched me out into the parade square where they had a crowd of people around. And they were all looking at this strange guy that had just got shot down nearby. And from there we went to a Luftwaffe station where they put us all in cells and various people came in and interviewed us and whatnot. And they were fairly decent, you know about the whole thing. And after that they put us all together except for the dead people. They couldn’t find the navigator. They didn’t know where he was. And neither did I. I suspected he was hiding in the woods, you know. Which would be not a very smart thing to do in sub-zero temperatures. But so they eventually found him. He’s buried near Berlin right now.
DK: Right.
AC: And —
DK: So, he had frozen to death then.
AC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: He just stayed out until he froze to death. It wasn’t a very smart thing to do either. But he was so much in love with this woman he’d just married that he figured he could get home. Sad eh? So, anyway that was, that was the beginning of my two years and three months in a POW camp. And they moved me to a place called Lamsdorf.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The rest of the crew was there and I spent the next [pause] And what did I do there? I figured I should do something useful so I escaped a couple of times and I got caught a couple of times. Let’s see. Three times I escaped, I think. Two. Must be. You’re right, Dot. Two times I escaped. Lucky I’ve got somebody to correct me. So, I escaped twice. I got caught twice. I spent time in three different prisons.
DK: ‘Cause reading your book what you seem to have done is exchange places with an army —
AC: Oh yeah.
DK: Was that how it was?
AC: Swapped over. Yeah. That was the, the theory that the people running the place you know. The RAF people decided that that was the way to go. We didn’t dig tunnels or anything like that. We swapped over. And I swapped over with a couple of different fellows.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And they went up into my barracks and wore my uniform. And I went down into their barracks and waited for my name to be called. My fake name. And then I got marched out with the rest of the people and —
DK: And the Germans never cottoned on to this then. That this was what was going on.
AC: Oh, I think they, they suspected. But I mean to them a POW was a POW. You know, they all looked the same.
DK: Yeah. Because I was very surprised when, when you were captured you were still that army person.
AC: That’s right.
DK: And even they took you back they still didn’t realise that you were —
AC: That’s right.
DK: Air Force.
AC: That’s right.
[background noise]
DK: Can, can I just stop?
[recording paused]
AC: I didn’t have much of a record as a bomber pilot.
DK: Yeah.
AC: I got shot down on my second trip really as captain. And it was all very sad. And after that I don’t remember anybody who ever flew a Lancaster who was below the rank of flying officer or flight lieutenant, you know. They automatically commissioned people to be captain of a huge aircraft like that. But anyway, that’s the basic. The rest of the story is in the book.
DK: I see with your second escape you were actually captured and held by the Gestapo.
AC: The Gestapo.
DK: It was the Gestapo?
AC: Yeah. We were, we were arrested [laughs] for eating lunch in a park. And you got —
DK: So, what was your plan of escape because you’re —
AC: We were going to Stettin and we were going to —
DK: Right.
AC: Get on to a Swedish ship to go to Sweden.
DK: Right.
AC: And that was, if I’d known more about it I would have gone to Denmark I guess because there they hated the Nazis.
DK: Yeah.
AC: They were driving people over to Sweden all the time.
DK: So, you’ve got false documentation now, presumably.
AC: Yeah.
DK: And you’re taking the part of, of foreign workers.
AC: That’s right.
DK: Is that the idea?
AC: That’s right. And they didn’t, nobody knew we weren’t foreign workers. We didn’t tell anybody.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The thing about the Gestapo was that they were just a mean bunch. I think they had to be mean to be selected. Our own guards were nice people, you know. Basically —
DK: Yeah.
AC: And some of the people, some of the Germans we met like you may remember a part where we had just got to Czechoslovakia and we were being taken back to our camp by a guard and he was quite friendly. And he, and he spoke to the other fellow a lot because the other fellow spoke German. You know. Had been a prisoner since Dunkirk. And any time an official looking German walked by, you know he’d change his story and be talking about something else. And, but he asked why we took a freight train. Because when we took a friend train all the way to, you know from where we jumped. Where we escaped the working party.
DK: Yeah.
AC: We jumped on a freight train. And I was pretty good at that because I used to do that as a kid. I had, when I went to high school you know. We went out to the freight yards. We’d jump on a freight train and go —
DK: Yeah.
AC: For a couple of miles and then jump off again. But anyway, so we came down in a freight train because we jumped on it. We were at a slight slope uphill and the freight train was going at a fairly slow rate, you know. And we’d run along beside it and jump on. And the guard said, ‘Well, why didn’t you jump on an ordinary train?’ And my friend who spoke German said, ‘Yeah. We, we took a freight train because the ordinary trains have got all these Gestapo people on them.’ And they, they said, ‘Oh, that’s, that’s not true,’ he said, ‘Most of our trains are full of people. Workers.’
DK: So the German guard was giving you advice on how to escape.
AC: Yeah. So, the German, the German guard was telling us how we, so, he said, ‘The next time you escape you should go on a passenger train.’ You know, this is a German guard.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Yet the Gestapo guys they were really mean. If you put your head out of line to look down you get hit on the back of the head with a rifle butt. You know. They just amused themselves and they’d take the women in there and march them around. Make them sing patriotic songs. And then they would take the men down there, march them around and make them go on their hands and knees. You know. Just —
DK: So, how long were you held by the Gestapo then?
AC: Oh, a couple of weeks.
DK: A couple of weeks.
AC: I think it was. I think it was more than a week anyway. Two weeks.
DK: Right.
AC: And, and then a guard came and rescued us you might say. He —
DK: So, had you, had you been trying to explain to the Gestapo that you were escaped prisoners then? Prisoners of War.
AC: Oh yeah. They — but they didn’t bother them.
DK: No.
AC: They, they didn’t give any particular respect to Prisoners of War or anybody else. But anyway the, the guard who came down who was very nice. As a matter of fact, on our way out the main, the main part of the prison I mentioned to the guard that they had taken my watch away from me. I had a Rolex Oyster. And that’s about a two thousand dollar watch, you know. And he said, ‘Oh. Ok.’ So, he went to the fellow on the desk and he started yelling at him in German and telling give me back my watch. The guy opened the drawer.
DK: Wow.
AC: And gave me back my watch.
DK: Wow.
AC: So there was, there was a guard. An ordinary, an ordinary soldier giving the Gestapo a hard time. And we had to give him advice on how to get back the best way because he didn’t know the railroads as well as we did.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And so we went back there. That was my last attempt at escape. And then after that I got back. And nobody ever caught us in the form of our, nobody ever proved it or even suspected that we had changed identities a couple of times.
DK: So you went back to the camp then as this army person.
AC: That’s right.
DK: And then you swapped over again.
AC: I swapped over again. I re-swapped over and I —
DK: I’m just amazed that the Germans never quite cottoned on to this.
AC: So am I but the like I said the average guard there would be a postman or something who would just as soon be a guard in a prison camp then fight the Russians. You know, the Russians were really mean. They were even meaner than the Germans. They still are I think but —
CK: Can I just ask which camp this was? Was this Stalag 8?
AC: Stalag 8B. And then they changed the name to 344, nearer the end for some reason.
CK: You mentioned in your book about a couple of coincidences. You met a couple of chums from Canada or something.
AC: Oh yeah. That’s right. I met a, I met a couple of chums who had gone to the same high school that I went to.
DC: When you first went in the camp.
AC: When I first went in the camp. Yeah. That was my first visit to the camp where they unloaded the train and then they marched us all down to the camp. And a couple of these fellows actually met us and said, ‘Hey, what are you doing here?’ I said, ‘Same thing as you. What are you doing here?’ That camp had a maximum capacity of about twenty five thousand. There were a lot of people there. So, and you can imagine the guard’s problem.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: You know. Keeping track of all these people. In fact they had a compound which, where they supposedly punished people who were trying to escape and what not. I’m trying to think of the name of the compound. Anyway, it’s in, it’s in my book. And, and we never saw the inside of that but we heard about it, you know. If you were caught climbing a fence or trying to beat up a guard or something then you go in to that camp and get punished. So, anyway that was my, my whole period there. And then the, the end came when the Russians were so close you could hear the guns firing and they decided to take us off out of the camp and they tipped the whole Air Force compound at once. They marched us out about 3 o’clock in the morning and we were going west on the, on the side roads. And we were sleeping in barns and so forth.
DK: Had you been expected to be evacuated as the Russians advanced?
AC: Well, we didn’t know. Nobody told us everything. And they decided they were going to take it because having a bunch of prisoners in fairly good condition was a good thing to do when the British were obviously winning the war.
DK: Yeah.
AC: I think most Germans knew that the war was pretty well lost by then. And they marched us all the way there. And the most interesting place we stopped at a train pulled over, stopped because there was going to be an air raid. And the name of the place was Halberstadt, which means half a town. Halbe is half and stadt is town. And the RAF came and bombed the place. Shot up the place quite, and some of our own people were killed there which was fairly normal for wartime you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And they and so the next morning they gathered up, they buried the people that were killed and they put the rest —
DK: So, you’ve been both. You’ve been both dropping bombs and on the receiving end of them.
AC: Oh yeah. That’s right. I was on the receiving end.
DK: Right.
AC: And so they put us back into another train and they took us all the way to West Germany. And, and in West Germany we were in a camp that had just been evacuated. They had taken a bunch of officers and people out of there that they wanted us to hang on to and they put us in the camp. And then we were in that camp when what was his name? Not Montgomery. Montgomery. Yeah. Montgomery and his army came by that area.
DK: Right.
AC: And they, they released us. I was quite disappointed because I met a couple of British soldiers that were telling us where we could go to steal things from houses. You know. How you can loot houses. They’d just walk into a place with the guns and start to look around.
DK: Really?
AC: And take stuff off the mantelpiece and whatever.
DK: And this is, this is —
AC: I was quite disappointed with that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: After the way we had been treated. But you’ve got to remember we also knew that the Poles and the Jews and the Russians and a few other people like that were treated really terribly by the Germans.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The Germans. I guess we were the best treated, treated of the lot because we were connected with the Red Cross.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And you know what Germans are like. They go by the book and the book said the Red Cross was in charge of us. And so the Germans —
DK: So, just going back a bit to your time in the camp would you say you were fairly well treated then?
AC: Yes. I think we were fairly well treated and any, anybody who wrote a book saying we weren’t well treated I think they were probably stretching the truth a little bit.
DK: Do you think the Red Cross parcels made a big difference then?
AC: Oh yeah. They made a big difference because we would get an average of maybe one, one or two Red Cross parcels a month and one Red Cross parcel particularly the Canadian ones were full of butter and jam and all kinds of things that you didn’t get. Because our normal food, God only knows what was in but you know, dead horses and whatever. And that is why I’m so old, I think. I’ve eaten so much crappy stuff. I’m, I just had my eighty fourth birthday and Dorothy —
DC: Eighty fourth? Ninety.
AC: Oh, ninety fourth. Yeah.
DK: Ninety fourth. Yeah.
AC: Ninety fourth. Yeah. And Dorothy’s birthday is coming up. Her ninety fifth is coming up at the end of next month.
DC: Ninety six.
AC: Yeah. She’s going to be, she’s going to be ninety six. Well, she’s got a much better, better memory than I have. So, I didn’t meet Dorothy until after the war.
DK: Right.
AC: And she was working for a big oil company. Imperial Oil. And she was, had a pretty good job too. I didn’t marry her for her money of course but —
DC: Oh yes you did.
AC: So, but anyway and I was a starving student, you know. I had to go back to school and get my grade thirteen. And then I went to university and I got admitted in to university as an architectural student. And in the second year I realised that this would be a pretty boring occupation doing stairways and tall buildings and things like that after what I’d been through. So, on top of that I didn’t have a job or anything and didn’t have any money. Dorothy had some money. But anyway we got married and, and I re-joined the Air Force. Did I join the Air Force after we got married?
DC: [unclear]
AC: Yeah. And I re-joined the Air Force and that was about — 1945.
DC: 1949.
AC: ’49. Yeah. And I was in the Air Force for the next twenty odd years. And then I was too young to start over again then so I went to Transport Canada. And in the same capacity as a pilot.
DK: Right.
AC: And doing safety work. And my job there was to look after the safety programmes in the Province.
DK: Oh right.
AC: I was the head safety officer. Anyway, so, and that’s, so I’ve been a pilot all my life. From, from age nineteen to, to now.
DK: And could I just take you back a bit? When Montgomery’s armies turned up and you’d been liberated how did you then get back to England from there? Or Canada really?
AC: Well, actually they took us by truck down to the nearest airport and then they flew us back in Dakotas, you know.
DK: Right.
AC: You know what a Dakota looks like. And there they sorted us all out and like an idiot I said I want to go back to Canada when I should have stayed and looked around England a bit first. But anyway, so I went back to Canada pretty well —
DK: Right.
AC: Shortly after. Before the war was even over. And that was the end of, that was the end of my military experience. And I got a, I got a private pilots or a commercial pilot’s licence and I got an instructor’s job at the local airport.
DK: Right.
AC: Then I joined the Air Force, and —
DK: So, what were you flying between 1949 and the twenty years you were back in the Air Force.
AC: Well, they didn’t put me on Lancasters. They put me on Cansos.
DK: Right.
AC: I was flying Cansos and, and the first year I was flying as a co-pilot with another chap whose name was [pause] I can’t think of it right now. But he’s probably dead anyway. But anyway he was flying all over the Arctic and looking for the North Magnetic Pole and this and that.
DC: The [unclear] Magnetic Pole.
AC: Do you remember his name, Dot?
DC: Just a minute. [pause] I have to think about it for a minute.
AC: Yeah. Anyway, anyway, so his job was, you know relocating the North Magnetic Pole and a few things like that. And the following, the following year they decided to make me a captain so they moved me to Vancouver.
DK: Right.
AC: Where I took a course on the Canso. I thought I was going to be flying the Lancaster but no I went on to the Canso and I must have done fairly well on that because when I came back I was a captain on a Canso for the next couple of years. And then after that just to make things different they moved me on to Cansos in Vancouver. And I spent another five or how many years were we in Vancouver.
DC: Seven years.
AC: Seven years in Vancouver. There you go.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, I was seven years in Vancouver. And most of our work was rescue work, you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Locating crashed aeroplanes and things like that and that’s where I got that medal from the Queen there.
DK: Oh right.
AC: See the picture of me and the Queen.
DK: Yeah. Oh yeah.
AC: I sent her a picture. I sent her a letter asking her if she would sign the picture. She said —
DC: Oh no.
AC: She said, I got a letter back from her assistant saying sorry but we can’t do things like that. You can imagine the problem we’d have writing to everybody who wanted our signature. So, she said, “I appreciate your enquiry,” and so forth and so on. It was the same as the Air Force Cross except it was a peacetime medal.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And it was for rescuing a guy who was having a, some kind of a heart attack in his head out on a weather ship. You know.
DK: Oh right.
AC: In those days they had weather ships way out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: In the middle of the ocean. And so I went out there and landed close by and they brought this sick guy over on a life boat and loaded him into the back of the aeroplane where there was a couple of nurses there. And then this guy was loaded in to the aircraft I’d got to take off in fairly rough water. But I had put two JATO bottles in the aeroplane.
DK: Right.
AC: One on each side. And do you know what a JATO bottle is?
DK: Is it a —
AC: It’s a rocket.
DK: Jet Assisted Take Off
AC: And it lasts for two or three minutes and so we managed to get off at about the second bounce. We got off and stayed in the air and flew this guy to Victoria where he was sent to a hospital and apparently lived to tell about it. So, anyway that was one of the more spectacular ones I did but I did lots of picking guys out of the water and flying them home and things like that. So, that was my job in Vancouver. And then they sent me to Toronto. A staff college again wasn’t it?
DC: You went to Goose Bay, Labrador first.
AC: Oh yeah. I went to Goose Bay, Labrador as a chief operations officer there. I was a squadron leader by then. And then I was told that there were so many people due for promotion that they were going to have to pass me over and start promoting some younger people otherwise everybody would be retiring at about the same time. Which was fair enough. So, I never got any higher than squadron leader.
DK: Yeah.
AC: But it was a pretty good job anyway doing that.
DK: So, so you never flew the Lancaster again post war.
AC: Oh, I flew the Lancaster again in Vancouver.
DK: Oh.
AC: Having been a Lancaster pilot they chose me to check people out in the Lancaster.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And so, I checked quite a few people out in the Lancaster. I flew a few tours myself looking for various crashed aircraft and whatnot.
DK: You didn’t, you didn’t fly the one that’s still flying did you?
AC: No. I didn’t.
DK: No.
AC: I didn’t fly that but no, I’m, I’m listed as a Canso pilot. I got thousands of hours in a Canso. And my son, one of my sons started a business which he called Canso. And he’s got the whole, and it’s doing pretty well.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, and he’s got his whole office full of Canso pictures and parts and things like that. So, it’s quite flattering to see.
DK: Yeah.
AC: All these Canso things are out. So, anyway that’s my story. It’s not much of a story.
DK: Oh, it’s a great story. Just going, looking back now after all these years. How do you feel about your time, you know in the Air Force during the war and particularly as a POW? How do you look back on that now? Your feelings.
AC: Well, considering the fact that my father and mother both died in their 60s. My older brother died many years ago and he was a couple of years older than I was. My younger sister, who was quite a few years younger than me died just last year. I figure, and I may be wrong but I figure that the bad food that I got used to in the camp and the good treatment I got, pretty well, you know went together and made me sort of, I’m still, despite what my wife may think I’m still fairly healthy.
DC: I watch his diet.
AC: Just, my recent call to the doctor, he said, ‘You’re very slightly on the diabetic line.’
DK: Right. Yeah.
AC: And so I —
DK: So, you think it —
AC: I told Dot this and now she gives me hell every time I have a cup of sugar.
DK: So, you think it made you a stronger person. Is that what you’re saying?
DC: Yes.
AC: Yes. I think —
DK: Yeah.
AC: I think it, I think it made me stronger. The fact that, you know, some of the people like my rear gunner Claude Clemens he never went outside the camp once, you know. He just sat there and played bridge and played cards and had a good time and then got released. And I and a number of other people thought that we should be doing something useful like trying to escape.
DK: Did you see it as your duty then to escape?
AC: I thought so. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, I mean I was a young fellow I’d believe anything in those days. But —
DK: Was it partly then to stop the boredom? You know. That you were doing something. This was —
AC: I was doing something yeah. And I was hoping to get to, to get out, you know. Actually have a successful escape. And they never did send the escapers back on operations. They used to send them back to Canada or someplace.
DK: Right.
AC: So they could propagandise the other people. So anyway, that was my reason for trying to escape but I think that it actually did me some good because I can eat almost any kind of food. Can’t I Dot?
DC: Yes. You don’t like certain kinds of green vegetables.
AC: So, anyway that’s, that’s my story.
DK: Ok.
CK: Did you keep in touch with some of your crew?
AC: They’re all dead.
CK: After the war.
CK: Ah.
DC: Well, we did keep in touch with them.
AC: We kept in touch with them. Yeah.
DC: But there’s none of them left.
AC: Claude Clemens was one of them.
DC: And Mac.
AC: And, yeah.
DC: And John Marchant, he’s dead.
AC: Yeah. They’re all dead now.
DC: And —
AC: And I’ll probably be dead in a couple of years. That’s why I wondered about you guys waiting ‘til, waiting so long to do this. There’s all kinds of —
DK: It’s taken a while. Yeah.
DC: De Silva’s grandson keeps in touch with us. Michael de Silva. His father got killed at [unclear]
AC: Who are you talking about?
DC: De Silva’s. You know the —
AC: Oh, the son of the fellow.
DC: That was the grandson.
AC: The grandson. Yeah.
DK: So, that’s de Silva’s grandson is still in touch with you.
AC: Can I make a cup of tea?
DK: Oh, I’d love one, I think. What I’ll do is —
AC: Let me make the tea, Dot. You just sit down.
DK: What I’ll do is I’ll just stop this now.
AC: Yeah.
DK: But thanks very much for that. That’s been —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andrew Carswell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACarswellA170614, PCarswellA1702
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:44:31 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
Poland--Łambinowice
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Andrew Carswell volunteered for the Royal Canadian Air Force in his native Toronto. He trained as a pilot and on arrival in the UK and completion of his further training he was posted to 9 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin. On their final operation they were attacked by a night fighter and in the subsequent departure from the aircraft one member of the crew broke his leg, one crew member’s parachute didn’t open and another had resisted all prompts to leave the aircraft. Andy was taken as a Prisoner of War and was sent to Stalag 8B which he escaped from twice before being recaptured.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
9 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
escaping
final resting place
Lancaster
Manchester
navigator
pilot
prisoner of war
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 8B
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/PHowB1601.2.jpg
fda853d50fe72cf8e047663a7acfeb5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/AHowB161116.2.mp3
66e2d87ba36f0e32044199f5f130f194
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
How, Bernie
B How
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
How, B
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bernie How (1924 - 2021, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BH: You’ve parked in the yard have you?
DK: I’ve parked in the yard. Yeah. Is it ok there?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, 16th of November 2016, interviewing Mr Bernie How.
BH: No E. H O W.
DK: H O W. Yeah. Ok if I just leave that there. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still going. I’m not being rude. Alright. What I would like to ask you first of all Mr How, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BH: Well I was at school. I was born in ’24. So when war broke out I was fourteen.
DK: Right. And what, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was there anything that drove you?
BH: Well the next village, which was Freckenham, there’s a big house there. It was owned by a lady-in-waiting to the Queen so it’s name was Freckenham House and the RAF commandeered it, put air crew to sleep there rather than sleep on the station.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they could get sleep.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Away from where possible bombing you know. And of course these air crew, I was born in a public house –
DK: Oh right.
BH: So we was the centre of activity with them. It was only five minutes’ walk from there, Freckenham House, to my dad’s pub.
DK: Right.
BH: And they used to flood the place you know. And of course they –
DK: They liked to drink did they?
BH: Well liked to drink. Liked to chat. The stories what they were going through at that time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Some were like this, even then.
DK: Really. So what year would this have been then?
BH: This would have been 1940/41.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah
DK: Ok.
BH: Early part. They were flying Wellingtons mainly at the start and of course they’d come down and we was kids, we wanted to know all about what they were doing and you got chatting to them. You got to know them as Bob, Harry, Jim or whatever and I thought to myself I’d like to do that and that’s where it started. As I grow into the fifteen, sixteen, seventeen I volunteered for the RAF.
DK: So you were seventeen when you volunteered then?
BH: I was seventeen when I volunteered and I weren’t quite eighteen when I got my number. In other words I was in the air force before I was eighteen.
DK: Right. So where, where was your initial posting to then? Where was it?
BH: Well we went to Cardington where everybody –
DK: Yeah.
BH: Went then. And thousands upon thousands and thousands. Got your uniform and your number and then we was posted to, or I was, to Skegness to do what they called then square bashing.
DK: Right.
BH: In other words –
DK: Yeah.
BH: To learn a bit of marching and then eventually I found my way to Cosford on a flight mechanics course.
DK: Right.
BH: There was nothing from the RAF then to say I would eventually be air crew.
DK: Oh right.
BH: But during the flight mechanics course they come round, different sergeants or warrant officers or whatever they were, ‘Any volunteers here for flight engineer?’ So I volunteered ‘cos you got through the flight mechanics course and the next posting was RAF St Athan where you trained to be a flight engineer and that was it.
DK: So, what, what did the training as a flight engineer involve then?
BH: Well sitting around a desk and listening to a corporal or a sergeant or even someone higher telling you all about the aircraft you had chosen.
DK: Right.
BH: To fly. Inside and out to quite how many tanks were in each wing and how much they held and the general feeling of the, of the aircraft itself.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I went in for Stirlings. They come around before you’ve done your course. Would you like to fly Stirlings, Halifax or Lancasters or whatever? Well I volunteered for Stirlings so therefore everything was –
DK: Based on the Stirling.
BH: Yeah. On the course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Course we eventually passed and I came to a place just the other side of Cambridge known as Wratting Common. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: A conversion unit. My crew had already been together two or three months flying two engine aircraft.
DK: Right.
BH: So they were posted to Wratting Common for a conversion unit to four.
DK: This is the heavy conversion unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This is when I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they’d known each other for several weeks or even months before they met me ‘cause they didn’t have engineers on a two engine aircraft.
DK: So what did you think when you first met your crew?
BH: Well they come, you just sit there and eventually the pilot come up to you and introduced himself and this kind of thing. And he said, ‘Would you like to be our flight engineer?’ ‘Oh’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘Bernie.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer Bernie?’ ‘Yeah. That’s ok.’ And that was it. I joined them and we started flying at the conversion unit and eventually finished up at Lakenheath.
DK: Can you remember your pilot, the pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yeah. He was Canadian. We had three Canadians in the crew actually. His surname was Harker.
DK: Harker. Right.
BH: H A R K E R.
DK: Right.
BH: He was, at that time, a pilot officer.
DK: And he came from Canada.
BH: Yeah. Three of them come from Canada.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Him, the navigator and the rear gunner. Yeah. Two from London. Myself here and the mid upper gunner lived in Bury St Edmunds.
DK: Did you feel quite confident when you met your crew for the first time then?
BH: Yeah. I wasn’t very big as you can see but I was a confident little person you know. Yeah.
DK: And did, do you think they had confidence in you as well?
BH: They must have done. Whether they talked to someone before they approached me I don’t know. I never asked that question but I have a feeling they may have done.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So at the heavy conversion unit then the whole crew then trained there.
BH: That’s right.
DK: Initially.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And trained for a few weeks and eventually a posting come through. We was moved to Lakenheath and joined 199 Squadron.
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: Yeah. And that’s where I started off.
DK: So all your operations then were on Stirlings or –
BH: No. We converted. What happened was after Lakenheath we moved because Lakenheath runway started breaking up.
DK: Right.
BH: So we had to move somewhere else and we went to North Creake in Norfolk.
DK: Right.
BH: And the other squadron what was there moved to, not far down the road to, still in Norfolk, I forget the name
DK: Ok.
BH: But they went there and we went to North Creake.
DK: So at this point had you flown any operations at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Right.
BH: We flew about eight from Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: All on Stirlings.
BH: All on Stirlings yeah. Then we went to North Creake and continued there and one particular night we’d got mines on board, sea mines what we dropped in different coves in France or Germany or wherever. On take-off we crashed.
DK: This was at Lakenheath or –
BH: No. This was at North Creake.
DK: North Creake. Yeah.
BH: We crashed and nobody was hurt much. The pilot got knocked about a little bit.
DK: Oh.
BH: But we were just leaving the ground and the tyre burst and down it went bang bang bang and the next day the pilot went into hospital. Not for long. Had some minor injuries and after he come out we was posted to a place in Yorkshire to convert to Halifaxes. Riccall in Yorkshire.
DK: Was, was the problem with the Stirling‘s undercarriages at all? Is that why it -?
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Did you actually come off the runway or did you -?
BH: No. We were still on the –
DK: Runway.
BH: We finished on the airfield, off the runway but -
DK: Yeah.
BH: We hadn’t left the ground hardly. May just about have. Very close, you know.
DK: Was that a bit worrying with the mines on board?
BH: Well that was the thought, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But we were all young. I was only nineteen I think.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You hadn’t got a lot of care in the world really.
DK: So how, as the aircraft has crashed how did you get out? Were you got the escape hatches or -?
BH: That’s right. Well the normal entrance to our, that’s the one I got out of. I think, I think the pilot scrambled out of his hatchway.
DK: Right.
BH: Because by that time we was not high. It was low on –
DK: Yeah.
BH: The undercarriage had gone and it wasn’t a big drop.
DK: So what was your thoughts then about the Stirling as an aircraft?
BH: I thought it was a beautiful aircraft. To fly especially. The problem was it couldn’t get the height.
DK: Right.
BH: I think its maximum was about thirteen or fourteen thousand where the Lancaster and Halifax could reach up to twenty thousand
DK: Did you feel a bit exposed at those low levels then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But once up there. A beautiful aircraft to fly. Yeah. It was really.
DK: So on the Stirling then you were the flight engineer. What would your role be?
BH: Well mainly there was fourteen petrol tanks. Seven in each wing and mainly to control them as one, gradually making sure you didn’t lose the balance. In other words not too much left in there or not enough in there and that kind of thing. Control of the petrol. That was the main job but we also had to watch out for, you was also a stand-by gunner if anything happened to the gunners.
DK: Right.
BH: So you had sort of a little training before to fire a gun if necessary and -
DK: Did you, did you help the pilot, sorry, did you help the pilot at all or –
BH: No. That was mainly, in our case the bomb aimer.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Really, when you think he hadn’t got a lot to do until you got where you was heading for so he used to mainly sit in the number two seat.
DK: Right. So you would be sitting behind them.
BH: Well we didn’t, as an engineer we hardly had a seat.
DK: Oh. Right.
BH: I think there was a lift up. What I remember you could just have a seat but mainly you was up and down looking at the engines and –
DK: So for the duration of the raid you were mostly standing up then.
BH: Walking or standing. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember any of the places you went to with the Stirling or -?
BH: Oh.
DK: Obviously some were mining operations.
BH: Yeah but yeah, the Frisian islands which was up North Germany.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Getting towards Russia.
DK: Yeah
BH: That was a dodgy one. As you’ve heard talk just recently of the navy having a convoy -
DK: Yeah.
BH: To Russia. Well that was mainly the same although we was up there and they was on water it was mainly a similar route to what they were taking.
DK: Oh right.
BH: And that was a, a dodgy one.
DK: Did you, did you fly on the Stirlings to any of the German towns and cities at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. In fact the last one was a small town and the name was Plauen or Plauen. It was a small town something like the size of Ipswich or Norwich. We bombed that and this is the last, last trip we had.
DK: Right.
BH: We didn’t know it but that was and what happened we dropped the bombs and then the normal procedure is to bank around outside the target and head for home. Well our skipper panicked. He must have panicked. He turned around and went straight back over the target again so we were meeting other aircraft what were coming in. How we didn’t hit one we’d never know. Nothing was said on the way home. We was dead quiet. No one hardly spoke. They knew –
DK: Yeah.
BH: What had happened and we arrived and debriefing and one thing, nothing was said at the time but the next day, about midday, we was finished flying.
DK: Right.
BH: I didn’t have any reason at all. We’d, mind you we’d done thirty five trips so we was getting, but it was decided that the pilot had panicked.
DK: Right.
BH: And he probably wasn’t fit to carry on so the whole crew was disbanded.
DK: So you did thirty five operations all together then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And how many of those were on Stirlings?
BH: Well, Halifaxes, I would think, at a guess this would be.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Stirlings would be something like twenty two or twenty three. Something like that. And the rest were Halifaxes. Yeah.
DK: So, so you, you were moved to, from the Stirlings then to the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you moved base as well then did you?
BH: No. We went up to Riccall.
DK: Riccall. Right.
BH: To convert to Halifaxes. That’s where the Halifaxes were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Mainly in Yorkshire. Nearly all Halifaxes up there and we was up there about three or four weeks and converted and we come back to North Creake.
DK: Right.
BH: And North Creake was then –
DK: Halifaxes.
BH: Nearly all, gradually overtook.
DK: Yeah. And that was still 199 Squadron.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So 199 Squadron converted from the Stirling.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: To the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were then flying the Halifax. What was your opinion of that aircraft?
BH: Well as I said a little while ago it could get much higher. I think it was lighter and it was probably a little bit more compact. Yeah. It was a lovely aircraft.
DK: Would you have a preference over the two types? The Stirling to the –
BH: I loved the Stirling and I think the whole crew did. Probably when we was taken off, I wouldn’t say it was tears but we were disappointed that we weren’t going to fly a Stirling anymore but the Halifax was good. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So as a flight engineer on the Halifax then what was your –
BH: Similar.
DK: Very similar.
BH: Similar.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you’re watching -
BH: Yeah.
DK: The petrol tanks -
DK: That was my main job. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The only other thing what may have went wrong? If the engines overheated well, we had to, what we called feathered them. In other words stop them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Did that happen on any occasion? You had to -
BH: Oh yeah we came home on three engines.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A few times. Yeah.
DK: And what, what had caused the engine to be shut down? Was it damage or –
BH: Overheating or things like, or wasn’t powerful enough and the pilot, we called him the skipper, then would say, ‘Bernie something wrong with the inner starboard. It’s not pulling.’ Then we had a chat about it we called what they called feather it. That’s when the props -
DK: Yeah.
BH: And went back onto three. No doubt that was done hundreds of times in different aircrafts.
DK: Yeah. So when you got back after an operation then how did you feel then as you arrived back at base?
BH: Relieved. Yeah. We used to go in for debriefing and you had a little drop of rum. That was a recognised thing. Then you went back to the mess and had a meal. It could have been anything from midnight to 8 o’clock in the morning but the meal was there. They were waiting to cook you a meal.
DK: Yeah. And the debriefing then was that, was that very intense? Did they ask you lots of questions?
BH: Well they wanted to know what had happened. What you saw. Did you see any fighter aircraft? Did you? Anything really. Yeah.
DK: So was there any occasions when your aircraft was damaged by flak or night fighters?
BH: Yeah. We got hit once or twice. Not seriously. We did get one engine hit so we had to stop that one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But not as bad as some of them. Some were really bad.
DK: So there was no occasion you were attacked by aircraft then.
BH: Well we was attacked by them but not, not intense. No. No. They were probably floating around seeing anything and if they happened to see a bomber they’d fire and hit it or miss it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they’d move on to another one or, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
DK: Can you recall any of your targets then over, over Germany or was there -
BH: What, the towns?
DK: The actual towns, yeah.
BH: Well we went to this one. The last one -
DK: Yeah.
BH: Plauen. We went to Dortmund. Cologne. Just the normal, you know the ones.
DK: Was Berlin one at all?
BH: No. I didn’t go to Berlin.
DK: You didn’t. No. Ok.
BH: We didn’t go to Berlin. We didn’t go to, where was the other big one?
DK: Hamburg.
BH: Hamburg. We didn’t go to Hamburg. No. I lost a friend. He lived in the next village. He was a flight engineer too and he was stationed in Yorkshire on Halifaxes and he copped his lot after five trips, over Hamburg. And they haven’t found anything of him or his crew since.
DK: No.
BH: So he was blown to bits. That’s what we all assumed anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So of your thirty five operations then what, what, did you do after that?
BH: Well we was all went different places. I think the three Canadians went to Canada back. Not together necessarily.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I finished up in air, air control. Flying control up in Inverness. A very small station.
DK: Right.
BH: There were very few aircraft and I worked there and stayed there until we finished with the RAF.
DK: And what year was that you came out the RAF then?
BH: Late, late ‘45. I’m not too certain of the month but late ‘45. Yeah.
DK: And what was, what was your career after, after the RAF then? What did you do?
BH: Well I left the building trade when I joined and I went back.
DK: Right. So looking back now after all these years how do you feel about your time in the RAF?
BH: Enjoyed it. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. We did really. Yeah. Because you met different people and that kind of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. We really enjoyed it. Yeah.
DK: Did you, were you able to stay in touch with your crew at all or -?
BH: Oh yes. We had numerous –
DK: Reunions.
BH: Reunions. Mainly in Leicester because Leicester was central or near central as you could get.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And we went there several years, once a year.
DK: The Canadians as well did they -?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Come over? Yeah.
BH: Well the whole squadron.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Squadron reunions. I mean everyone was invited but we started off, I think the first one was around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty attended but of course that gradually went down. People was ill or died. The last one we attended was eighteen.
DK: Right.
BH: And the chappie who organised it decided that, you know, that was it. So he got up on the last one and told us that this was the last reunion. Yeah.
DK: The last reunion for 199 Squadron.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are any of your crew still alive do you know?
BH: No. They’re all gone. Yeah.
DK: And can, can you name the whole crew still or -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Blimey. Who was, can you name the gunners?
BH: Yeah. Stan Pallant.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And Stanley Pallant was the upper, upper gunner.
DK: Yeah. The rear gunner?
BH: The rear gunner was a Canadian. I just forget his name now. Anyway, the bomb aimer was Alf Salter, come from London. The wireless operator was Harry Durrell. He come from London. The pilot’s name was Ernie Harker as I told you, come from Canada. The navigator was Johnny Russell, come from Canada. The mid upper gunner was Stanley Pallant, come from Bury St Edmunds and the rear gunner was, I know his name as well as my own but he was the odd one out. He, he didn’t socially mix with us. Very seldom. All the rest, at North Creake there was a pub off, just off the station. It was The Black Swan but it was always called the Mucky Duck so it always arranged for the Mucky Duck. I just can’t think of the rear gunner’s name.
DK: It will probably come to you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So did you find that was important then to socialise with your crew and -?
BH: Oh yeah. The crews mostly were an item. They did probably talk to other members but you mixed mainly with your own crew nearly all the time.
DK: And, and was, there were officers in your crew as well.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And was that an issue with officers and non-officers or did they -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They met. They socialised together.
BH: Oh yeah. Very much so yeah. You didn’t know them as officers. They was Harry or Alf or whatever, you know.
DK: And you think that was very important for the crew.
BH: Yes. Oh yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I’ve got a picture of the crew somewhere. Oh. That might interest you. That’s me there.
DK: Oh. Oh wow. This is –
BH: War pictures on the inside.
DK: [unclear] Oh right. Members of a Norfolk airfield. Key role in wartime operations. [pause] So this is about RAF North Creake then.
BH: Sorry?
DK: About RAF North Creake.
BH: North Creake. Yeah.
DK: So the control tower is still there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s now a bed and breakfast.
DK: Oh yes. Of course it is. Yes. I keep meaning to pay them a visit actually and stay there the night.
BH: Yeah. They’re in operation there. I know them well. Both of them, you know.
DK: Is this your actual aircraft that crashed then or was it –?
BH: That’s the one, yeah
DK: That’s the one.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was September 1944.
BH: Yeah. I’ve got a picture of it.
[pause]
BH: Well that’s my crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. And that’s the Halifax behind it.
BH: That’s the Halifax. Yeah. [pause] Yes, interesting paper really.
DK: Yeah.
[pause]
BH: That’s the aircraft again.
DK: Oh wow. So that’s where it’s, it’s taken the wing off hasn’t it?
BH: Yeah. The wing come right off one of them. Yeah.
[pause]
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Well that’s all the Stirling. That’s all different.
DK: The Stirlings. Yeah.
BH: Just a book of Stirlings. Yeah.
DK: That’s actually the photos from there isn’t it?
BH: That’s the one again.
DK: So that’s the Short Stirling in action.
BH: That’s right yeah.
DK: So that’s the squadron signal publication. Aircraft number 96.
BH: These are just pictures taken at Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: That’s taken at Wratting Common. That’s more.
DK: Are those, those are sea mines aren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying two of those –
BH: That’s right.
DK: When you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh yeah. I see here it says sea mines on the back.
BH: That’s the aircraft again. Yeah. We’ve got different bits of paper. That’s the crew, the whole crew of –
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: You’ll find us down there somewhere.
DK: So this is all the air crew that served with 199 at some time.
BH: At that time.
DK: At some point. At that time. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There you are. Yeah.
BH: That’s North Creake.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I hadn’t had that long actually.
DK: I must pay a visit at some point.
BH: Yeah. Bed and breakfast. They’ve got the whole control tower. I think they’ve got four bedrooms. Yeah.
DK: So that’s the crew there then. So that’s. Where are they?
BH: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: So if I, just for the recording here so this is, that’s Harker there is it?
BH: The one with the hat on yeah.
DK: That’s Harker. So from left to right.
BH: Stanley Pallant.
DK: Stanley Pallant.
BH: Harry Durrell from London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Myself. That’s the one I just can’t think of his –
DK: Right.
BH: That would be on here.
DK: Is he, is he listed on there?
BH: Yeah. Sewell.
DK: Sewell. So kneeling down there is Sewell.
BH: Then –
DK: Harker and then –
BH: Bomb aimer. Alf Salter
DK: Alf Salter, right.
BH: And Johnny Russell. The Canadian navigator.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I noticed here just in the article it mentions about, so you flew on Operation Overlord.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what was that like then? Did you realise what was happening when you –
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Went on operation? They did –
BH: Briefed.
DK: So at the briefing they told you that was –
BH: Oh Yeah.
DK: That was D-Day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So what was your role then on D-Day?
BH: Well it was a similar thing. We patrolled over the water, you know, the Channel, dropping things to disrupt their, the German navigator or whatever.
DK: Their radar.
BH: Radar. Yeah.
DK: So what was it you were dropping then? Was it Window?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Kind of. Yeah.
DK: So you were dropping Window then to disrupt the –
BH: We were just hoping that would distract them. It probably did. Yeah.
DK: So can you remember how long you were in the air for over Normandy doing this?
BH: Well the trip itself from the station, four to five hours. So we were probably hovering around there for three hours anyway. Yeah.
DK: And did you see any of the ships then?
BH: You could see about - we were flying around about five thousand I think. You could see action. Yeah.
DK: So you could see the invasion fleet.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was the sky quite crowded then with aircraft.
BH: Oh yes. Yeah. All sorts, yeah.
DK: So at the briefing then and they told you this is, this is D-day what was your feelings then?
BH: Well we probably shook for a minute or two you know. Mind you I think the whole country knew it was coming.
DK: Right.
BH: Probably the people living near where they left from. They knew more than lots of people knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And, and so you got back from the D-Day operation. How did you feel then about the –?
BH: Well then we heard the story in the papers and different things. What had happened?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your operations then were all in 1944 were they or -?
BH: No.
DK: ’43. ’44.
BH: Mostly I think, I don’t think, early ‘44 and we mainly went into ‘45 as well.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your thirty fifth operation was –
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was in 1945 then. And that’s when you were taken off operations.
BH: Yeah. It was very sudden. You know we went to bed that night. No knowledge of finishing.
DK: Right.
BH: The next day we was on the train to Yorkshire.
DK: How did you feel then knowing you didn’t have to do any more operations?
BH: Well we didn’t know exactly then but we had a good idea that was it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That we wouldn’t be recalled and that kind of thing and we went up to that big place in Yorkshire near Darlington. There’s army there, the navy and air force. I forget the station name now. We all went there and that’s where we split up. Some went that way and some went that way and so on and as I say I went to Inverness.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I’ll, I’ll stop that there.
[machine paused]
DK: I’ll just put that back on. I noticed here 199 Squadron was part of 100 Group.
BH: Yes.
DK: So what was special about 100 Group?
BH: I don’t really know. Whether was the area where, like around here was all 3 Group. Mildenhall was headquarters for 3 Group. In Yorkshire it were 4 Group.
DK: Yeah.
BH: What was it in Lincoln? 5.
DK: 5.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 5 and 1. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So 100 Group. Did they do anything out of the ordinary? Or -?
BH: Well not really. We dropped mines and bombs and we also did Window which is where you went and dropped the Window in front of the main force. As they come behind you you dropped all this stuff to divert the Germans again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: More or less what happened on D-Day. Similar thing.
DK: To disrupt the German radar.
BH: Well that’s –
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was the idea.
DK: The idea. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Probably did work but probably not all the time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bernie How
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHowB161116, PHowB1601
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:34:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie How was 14 when war was declared and remembers aircrew socialising at his father's pub. He volunteered for the RAF at 17 and trained as a flight engineer on Stirlings. He describes a crash on take-off in a Stirling. He completed 35 operations, initially on Stirlings and later on Halifaxes flying from RAF North Creake with 199 Squadron. His operations included mine laying, bombing over Germany and patrols over the Channel dropping Window as part of the Normandy campaign. After their pilot was thought to have panicked during an operation, he and his crew were suddenly taken off operations. He then served in air control prior to demobilisation in 1945. He discusses his crew and how they kept in touch, attending reunions for many years.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Plauen
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
199 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Lakenheath
RAF North Creake
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
RAF Wratting Common
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/10623/PHammondBF1801.1.jpg
2e6cb57fd2c4da73cdef8d687d6529a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/10623/AHammondBF180904.2.mp3
39855cccc9bd2e67d395dfc623e76a0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hammond, Bert
Bertram Hammond
B F Hammond
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bert Hammond. He flew operations as an air gunner with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hammond, BF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just check this is working. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bert Hammond at his home on the 4th of September 2018. So, if I just put that there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It works better if you just talk normally. If I’m looking down I’m just making sure it’s working.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But what, what I’ll just start off asking you was what, what were you doing just before the war? Can you remember what you were doing?
BH: Yeah. First of all I was a grocer’s assistant and then I decided to get some further education.
DK: Right.
BH: And luckily for me there was just a bit of luck. I was in ATC, 233 Squadron. Whatever you called it. And I went to the Technical College to see if I could get anything and unbeknown to me the teacher I saw was also an officer in the ATC Squadron which I didn’t know.
DK: Oh right.
BH: He also was in charge for the football team for the squad which I played for. So, he, he helped me a lot to get some further education and there was a period of time which I greatly, you know appreciated.
DK: So —
BH: That was up until I went and volunteered.
DK: So the fact you were in the ATC was flying something you were interested in then? And the RAF?
BH: Yeah, we got the occasional trip, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We, we got one nearby squadron. Bostons. We got, I got a trip in one of those one Sunday.
DK: Yeah. Well what were you flying in? Can you remember?
BH: Sorry?
DK: What were you flying in?
BH: Then?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Bostons.
DK: Right.
BH: The American aircraft.
DK: Right. Oh, right.
BH: And I’ve, there’s only about three crew. Bomb aimer, navigator, pilot and a wireless operator/air gunner because they, they were probably flying in, was it 2 Group?
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
BH: They were Bomber Command but late aircraft.
DK: Yeah. So you flew in a Boston as part of the ATC then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ah.
BH: And we also, I forget the name of the aircraft, we went one night. We flew over the Broads, The Norfolk Broads.
DK: Right.
BH: In a [pause] I forget what they called it now. Twin engine. You could get about eight people in. It was. But that was that was also helpful you know to get you accustomed to flying.
DK: So was that the first time you flew then?
BH: Yeah, in the Boston.
DK: In the Boston.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh, right. So, how did you feel as you were taking off in it? Was it quite exciting?
BH: I was so unprepared. I didn’t, I didn’t know what to expect. But it’s, the best part was that they had left as you got in to the back because it was the wireless op in those and the air gunner was in the middle of the aircraft you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they left all the detachment out so I can see all the ground underneath my feet [laughs] but it was, no it was a great experience.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you, before you go in to the RAF you’ve got a little idea what flying is about. It may be sparse but it was —
DK: So whereabouts, going a bit further whereabouts were you actually born then? Were you a Londoner?
BH: No, I was born in Norwich.
DK: Right.
BH: Brought up in Norwich.
DK: So, in Norwich itself then did you see much about the beginning of the war?
BH: Oh, yes.
DK: What did you see then? Can you —
BH: We got, we got bombed. I mean, but the incident which I never saw, but obviously there was no television in those days. There was a paper and also the wireless where the stray aircraft came over and machine gunned the girls coming out of Colman’s Mustard Factory.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: I mean, I’m not quite sure of the numbers but it was either seventeen or nineteen they killed, and I thought to myself then but they’re not munitions, they’re not war people. They’re [pause] and then of course they got further night raids. And I had a girlfriend at the time. You know, young we were [laughs] and her, they bombed Norwich, and I was, of course this is the early part of the war and she was, her cousin was seventeen and got killed.
DK: Oh, really.
BH: When they pulled her out she was black. Blast.
DK: She didn’t work at the Colman’s factory then. She was —
BH: No. No. Separate.
DK: Separate incident. Oh dear. Yeah.
BH: But that’s the sort of thing that got me thinking about, I mean.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, at the time I thought I mean a girl of seventeen you know they’re in the bloom of their life aren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
BH: But that really, that really struck me. Those two occasions. That’s all. That’s why I volunteered for aircrew. As simple as that.
DK: And what year was it you volunteered for aircrew then?
BH: ’43. Early ’43. I had to go in. I had to go in to have my tonsils and adenoids out so I got delayed actually, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: Through the RAF you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Went before what they called an Attestation Board at Cardington in Bedfordshire.
DK: Right.
BH: And then of course you have your medical, and seven doctors I believe there were.
DK: So, it was quite thorough then was it?
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So as you joined what were you hoping to do in the RAF? Were you hoping to be a pilot? Or —
BH: I think we all were.
DK: You all were. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I mean to be honest I mean I could send Morse because I mean I was taught it in the ATC.
DK: Right.
BH: Quite capable. I could send better than I could receive. I think that’s natural if you’re not proficient at it shall we say.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And I didn’t want to be a wireless op. So I was straight AG.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A — it was a shorter course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You were a sergeant at least.
DK: So was that one of the reasons you became an air gunner then because the training was a shorter period?
BH: Yeah, it was one of the reasons. Yeah.
DK: So, so what did the training as an air gunner actually involve then?
BH: Well, I was called up to what they called ACRC, that’s in London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground of all places. We got all our inoculations, vaccinations, kitted out, and then we went on to Bridlington.
DK: Right.
BH: And in Bridlington was what they called initial. ITW, I think they called it anyway. And you were taught certain things. Marching and all that sort of things. And one of the, one of the things I remember of course I couldn’t swim and they marched us down, you know. They said, ‘You’re going down to the harbour,’ you know, ‘For dinghy drill.’ Of course we went down at night and thought oh that’s not far to drop. We went back the next morning the tide had gone out [laughs] It was about a fifteen or twenty foot drop. I mean, they lined you up. You might as well jump because they’d have pushed you anyway. You’ve got Mae Wests on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then you had to get in a fighter dinghy. A fighter one, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And then get out of that and get in a bomber dinghy and come back.
DK: So, you didn’t —
BH: I did alright.
DK: You did alright. You never realised how deep it was until the next day though.
BH: But I was, I wasn’t shall we say afraid because I think when you are with other people, most of these were you know were joined up lads like myself.
DK: So, how old were you at this point?
BH: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen. Yeah.
BH: When you join up like that you think to yourself, ‘Well, I’ve got to go with the flow. I can’t show myself up.’ And I think you get accustomed to that kind of relationship don’t you?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Especially as you get older and more in with the RAF. It’s a comeraderieship of being with other people isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. So what, what was your next part of the training then?
BH: Well, then I went to, I can’t remember how long we I’ve got a record.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Of all my service history there. Went then to Bridgnorth. This was called, I think it was advanced ITW. Initial Training Wing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We did, I don’t know how long we were there but we [pause] it was quite a, quite a big camp. I think it’s still going today. I’m not sure mind you, but it’s going on for long after the war anyway but we then of course you got a lot of sport.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course, and I was very lucky there of course. My mother wrote to me and said, “You’ve got an aunt in Bridgenorth.” So of course the aunt wrote to me and said, “Oh, come for Sunday lunch.” Beautiful home cooking [laughs] We went to church in the morning and then we went to Sunday lunch. Oh, it was lovely. Yeah. I went several Sundays. They were, he was a big business man in Bridgenorth. He’d got a big store or something. I don’t know. But they were very very kind to me.
DK: So the food at your aunts was better than what the RAF did for you then.
BH: Well, yes. You miss your mum’s cooking don’t you? [laughs] Yes.
DK: So what, what sort of training were you doing at Bridgnorth? Did this involve weapons training?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No. No. We didn’t get that training until I then moved to Morpeth.
DK: Right.
BH: Near Newcastle.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That’s what they called, that was the Air, Air Gunner’s School.
DK: Right.
BH: We had, we had rifles. That was all at Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
BH: But that was all, you know. We did a bit of firing with rifles in the, in there but —
DK: So was Bridgenorth mostly kind of square bashing and —
BH: Yeah. And as I remember more or less teaming you up to go to the Air Gunner’s School, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: But then, because we went to the Air Gunner’s School, we were flying in Ansons, with film and drogues, you know. Which was the targets.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was —
DK: Did, did you start your weapons training on the ground or or was it straight in to the air?
BH: We, we, you did a certain amount, you know with as I said with rifles.
DK: Right.
BH: You’d go down the range and fire and that. But the thing which sort of got me interested there more than anything was the fact is that they gave you also, I mean I couldn’t swim.
DK: Right.
BH: So they used to take me to [pause] with some others not just me to Newcastle Baths. So, so we got out of the camp that way [laughs] But I mean I could swim if I’d got a Mae West on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: As soon as they took it off I panicked like hell.
DK: Did you ever master learning to swim then?
BH: No, I never got around to it but the, the best part of there was that this, this is the kind of course in my RAF career this. Whether it’s my soft face or attitude I don’t know. There’s three air gunner’s courses going through at the same time there.
DK: Right.
BH: I don’t know how many is on a course. I can’t remember. Quite a number and yet there was some big AOC who was coming to visit the camp, out of all those people eight people were going to form a guard. I was one of them [laughs] So, we had to do guard. Had to do rifle drill. You know, present arms and all that. He never came so we never — [laughs]
DK: You can’t remember who it was supposed to have been who came.
BH: No. I can’t remember. No.
DK: No. No. So the actual, so they’ve got you in an Anson then and you’ve taken off. What, what happens while you’re all in the Anson?
BH: Well, you get, you either get primary [pause] I’ve got my logbook, it’ll say in there. It’s a bit battered about now but —
DK: Let’s have a look.
BH: I’ll go and get it.
DK: Ok.
BH: You’ll have to excuse me.
DK: Yeah. No worries.
[pause]
BH: I’m a bit slow, you see.
[recording paused]
BH: Things [pause] There’s all sorts of things in here. Number 4 AGS, Morpeth.
DK: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ll tell you what. This. Mostly air firing.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok if I have a look?
BH: Go on. You have a —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: There’s certain things.
DK: Ok.
BH: Other pieces I’ve kept in there.
DK: So I’ll just say this for the recording here.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, this is your air gunner’s flying logbook.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, we’ve got —
BH: It tells you at the front the results.
DK: Yeah. I see it’s got the —
BH: Right at the front I think.
DK: Right. Oh, I see it’s got the, so two hundred yards range.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Cine film. Rounds. So theory average and then air firing above average.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You’re a bit of a shot then.
BH: Well, I think it says —
DK: “Will make an excellent air gunner.” There you go.
BH: That’s it. That’s it. It’s, yeah because I’ll tell you what. I’ve always, I’ve always had difficulty with my English. I can tell you but I can’t put it into words very well.
DK: Find the right words. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Now, as I say I went to school on mathematics. I mean I watch “Countdown.” I can do, well I do about eight percent of them in my head. I’m good at that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But my English is poor.
DK: Poor. Yeah. So you went to Number 4 Air Gunner’s School.
BH: Yes.
DK: And then, so this is October, November 1943 so you’re flying on Ansons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So were these the Ansons that had the gun turrets?
BH: Yeah.
DK: In them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then you took it in turns to follow them.
BH: You see, it was about four of us gunners went up at a time and we took turns you see and they registered who you were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The pilot flew and there was a big bay there. I remember that’s a beautiful bay. Golden sands there was. Of course, it was cold but because we didn’t have flying gear then.
DK: Oh right.
BH: I mean we weren’t issued with it, you know until we went to OTU.
DK: Right. So it was a bit cold up there then was it?
BH: Yeah. It was.
DK: So four of you have gone up and there’s presumably with you is the pilot.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Is there any other crew there? Or —
BH: Instructor.
DK: Instructor. So the four of you take it in turns to —
BH: Yeah. And he would tell you what to do. Go in, because you would climb into the turret because it was inside you see.
DK: And can you remember what sort of machine guns they had?
BH: Yeah. 303.
DK: Right.
BH: Browning 303. They were all, they were pretty standard I think.
DK: Yeah. So, a lot of the, I’m just reading from the logbook here. So there’s beam tracer. Air to ground as well.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And a lot of cine gun as well.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, did you fire on drogues as well?
BH: Yeah.
DK: And that —
BH: That’s, yeah that’s on the live ammunition and of course they had a cine gun, because that’s what you were assessed on because they’d got a copy of it.
DK: Right.
BH: They could, they could assess it all.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve passed this then and then you’ve gone to 26 OTU.
BH: Yeah.
DK: At Wing.
BH: Wing.
DK: So, what kind of aircraft were you flying?
BH: Wellington.
DK: Wellingtons. What did you think of the Wellington?
BH: Well, we went to, of course we went to Wing. Then we went to the satellite. Little Horwood. The trouble with OTU is, as I found it anyway was the fact is that the aircraft was being flown night and day.
DK: Right.
BH: And the one episode I remember is that we’d gone on a night trip and it was a pitch black night. Well, of course it was winter time and this is a brand new aircraft which is unusual. And as we took off we’d just get airborne and one of the engines cut dead. Now, as I understand in theory that wasn’t supposed to be kept airborne, especially from take-off.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I heard a voice calling, ‘Mayday. Mayday. Mayday.’ I thought someone’s in trouble. Of course, I was in the turret down the end.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I thought to myself I could see the drem lighting of the aircraft that were you know around the airfield, and I thought well that’s not very, that’s pretty close. I suddenly realised it was us that was in trouble [laughs] But the skipper somehow with the bomb aimer they, I don’t know how he did it, because as I understand it especially I mean you could fly on one engine but take-off you were at your lower speed.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But he got it around and he daren’t put the wheels down or the flaps. He put, he put it down on its belly. Then we scrambled out.
DK: So, you were still in the turret then when it hit the ground.
BH: Yeah, I could, yeah but I moved it around, opened the door.
DK: Right.
BH: So when it landed I could just —
DK: Get straight out.
BH: Jump out the back. Yeah.
DK: So, had, had you actually met your future crew at this point?
BH: Oh yes. I was with the crew then.
DK: Right.
BH: They, it was rather peculiar because I would think most people could tell you were just left to your own devices to crew up. I mean, I was walking down the road and this pilot approached me. He said, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ You see. I didn’t even know him. So I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my gunner?’ So I said, ‘Well, yes.’ I felt honoured to be honest about it, you know. And then we got, I was obviously the youngest.
DK: Right.
BH: The wireless op, Jim was the oldest. He was —
DK: Just going back to your pilot. Can you remember your pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yes. Michael John Warner.
DK: Michael John Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: The wireless op as I said he was, he was, he was getting on. He was thirty something. And he, you know, said after we because he said to me you know he said, ‘If we don’t like this pilot you know we can change.’ So I said, ‘Oh, can we?’ Because I mean he’d been in the air, he was a, he’d been in a while I think. He was a flight sergeant then.
DK: Oh.
BH: Anyway, I said, ‘Oh, can we?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, anyway, after the crash he came up to me because he’d become my dad sort of thing. He said, ‘He’ll do.’ Because, you know, he came when we were stationed on the squadron which was at Waterbeach. That weren’t too far from Norwich, you see. Get on the train direct into Norwich you see. So we often went. He promised to look after me to my mum.
DK: So your pilot then, Sergeant Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: After that accident in the Wellington do you think you sort of gained confidence with him?
BH: We, well we all, we all in, because Wing that that was a wartime aerodrome, you know. Scattered billets all over the place and we were all in one billet.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You soon get to know one another when you’re together. But we all gelled together you know. We all got on very well. Then of course later on you’re joined by the other gunner.
DK: Right.
BH: And the flight engineer.
DK: Can you, can you recall their names?
BH: Yes.
DK: What were their names?
BH: Well, I’ve got it —
DK: Are they all in here? Ok.
BH: I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I think this might be of interest in the conversation. I should have brought it through then. I’m afraid that my —
[recording paused]
BH: I only had it the other day, showing somebody.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I must have put it somewhere I can’t remember. Yeah. The pilot was, well yes Michael John Warner.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The bomb aimer was Cyril Holmes. I’ll leave the flight engineer ‘til last for a reason. The wireless op was Jimmy Foyle. The rear gunner was Don because we changed over. I’ll tell you about that. Don Shepherd.
DK: Right.
BH: I’m the only survivor now. That I know of. While I remember on this because we all had to have a second job in case of emergencies.
DK: Right.
BH: And nobody could send Morse or receive Morse to any kind of standard. Only me. So the skipper said, ‘Look Bert, you’re no good down the bottom if anything happens to the wireless op,’ you know. ‘So will you swap with the mid-under? You’re a lot nearer.’ You see. So we swapped over —
DK: Right.
BH: But that was when we were at —
DK: On the squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And the flight engineer we had one and we ran into a bit of trouble over Gelsenkirchen and he, he didn’t make it sort of thing back.
DK: Ok.
BH: We come back with practically no airworthy instruments and we had to land at an emergency drome down near Ipswich [pause] Damn it. I —
DK: We can come back to that.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But —
BH: But we had one. I’ve forgot his full name now. Then we had a second one. It was Tommy Buchanan.
DK: Right.
BH: He finished. He did the rest of the tour. He did about another —
DK: Yeah.
BH: Twenty five ops.
DK: Right.
BH: With us. So that’s the one I remember more than anything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve just noticed in your, your logbook here you talked about that crash while you were training in the Wellington.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it’s, it’s got it down here. Just for the recording here it’s, it’s got a date.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I think this must have been it. The 19th of March 1944. And it’s in Wellington 244.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Sergeant Warner and it’s for, you’ve put in brackets there, “Crashed on take-off.”
BH: Yeah, that’s it.
DK: So, that would have been it, would it?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, it’s recorded as fifteen minutes flying time. See this.
BH: I was sat in the back there like [laughs] just didn’t realise until suddenly there was this drem lighting this close.
DK: So just as I say just for the recording then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: As I say that was the 19th of March 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That was a Wellington. And was that at Wing?
BH: Yeah.
DK: That you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that’s all 26 OTU.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then, so looking at the logbook here you’ve done twenty six hours forty minutes day flying, and twenty seven hours fifty five night flying.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So then during the time at the OTU you didn’t do any operational sorties at all did you?
BH: Oh, well you’d hardly call it that. We were doing, I forget what they called them now. We went sort of somewhere near the Belgian coast, I think.
DK: Oh, was this a diversionary raid?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Right.
BH: But you know we, it was all taken over on the short trip when that was back sort of thing. I think it was mainly to do with the radar perhaps or something. I don’t know.
DK: I think that’s on the logbook here that you’ve got diversionary raid.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On the 15th of March 1944. Wellington 242.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I suspect that’s it there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s what it was.
DK: So, no actual bombing raids.
BH: No.
DK: While you were on the OTU. So, and then after that I’ve got you as going to 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BH: Yeah, that was at Waterbeach.
DK: Waterbeach.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And there you’re, by this time you were the mid-upper gunner then.
BH: Yes. Yes. Mid-upper.
DK: So at Wing was Wellingtons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then Waterbeach.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Lancasters.
BH: Conversion Unit, yeah.
DK: Yeah, and you were converting to the Lancaster.
BH: Yeah. That’s the Mark 2.
DK: Ah. Right. So, it was the Mark 2.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the Hercules engine.
BH: That’s what I was trying to find. I don’t know where I’ve got it. I had it the other day.
DK: It’s not in here is it?
BH: No.
DK: Is there a photo of it?
BH: No. It’s, it’s a paperback. It’s, it’s, it was the actual aircraft we did seventeen ops in was in, there used to be a magazine called “Flight.”
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: It was in there and we managed to get and then it’s come out in a book and I don’t know what I’ve done with it now.
DK: Oh, that’s a shame. Perhaps we can find it a bit later.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So it’s at 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That, that’s when you’ve met your first flight engineer presumably.
BH: That’s right, yes.
DK: Yeah. And the second gunner.
BH: No. He came he came, he came to us in —
DK: At the OTU.
BH: OTU. The end part of the OTU.
DK: Right. The end part. So, you’re now mid-upper gunner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of the, comparing the two mid-upper gunner to the rear gunner was?
BH: It was [laughs] to be honest I didn’t think much of the mid-upper really because you saw too much. You were wide open you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You see, at the back you see where you’ve been. At, up there you could see all the way around.
DK: All the way around.
BH: No. I mean you adjusted yourself to the requirements. Skipper’s the skipper. Of course, then he was made an officer.
DK: I see. He is now Pilot Officer.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Warner, isn’t he?
BH: Yeah. Made him the pilot.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course the point before I forget when we were moved to, to Waterbeach, because he was an officer he couldn’t come in the sergeant’s mess. So we billeted ourselves voluntary in, because it was a peacetime built camp into barrack room so he could come over and be with us you see.
DK: Yeah. Do you think that put you as a crew to a bit of a disadvantage where the pilot’s an officer and you’re not? Did you think that affected you? How you worked together?
BH: Not me personally because I had all the rest of the crew around me, but he was on his own.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Nobody else was an officer in the crew, you see.
DK: Do you think that’s not necessarily a good idea then? Or —
BH: Well, it —
DK: Did it affect people?
BH: I mean obviously he was a very quiet person, you know. He was not one, I didn’t think to make quick relationships you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He was sort of laid back, and I used to feel to myself you know you’d gone into a strange world where before we went to the sergeant’s mess all together and now you’re going on your own. Me, I got all the, all the rest of the crew around me. I was alright. Yeah.
DK: So you’re on the Lancasters Mark 2s with the Hercules engines.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of those as a, as an aircraft to fly on?
BH: Oh wonderful. The thing I make about them they were so quiet. You know the, the only trouble was when we got on to the squadron they were about eighteen thousand feet maximum.
DK: Right.
BH: So you got the Lancs above you, the Mark 1s and 3s you know, missing the bombs.
DK: So, so the Lancaster Mark 2 couldn’t fly as high as the —
BH: No, about eighteen thousand was the maximum.
DK: Right.
BH: Around about that.
DK: Well, do you know if they were any faster? Or —
BH: Near the ground.
DK: Near the ground. Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But they, you don’t think they were as noisy inside.
BH: No.
DK: As the other ones.
BH: No. The Mark 3 we went on they were American Packard Rolls Royces. God they were noisy, you know. God. I mean they were, they were built under licence.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because I think the fact is that the Americans turned out the Mustang. I mean the Rolls Royce they put in them made them it a long range fighter for their bombers.
DK: Right.
BH: You see they put a Rolls Royce in. It was a different aircraft then. They could do the distance.
DK: I’m just reading from your logbook here for the recording.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It says here you were on at, at Waterbeach you were on the Lancaster 2s.
BH: Yeah.
DK: This had all been training. Air to air bombing training.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Whatever. So you were on Lancaster. I’ll just read this out 619, 622, 617, 787, 624, 617 again.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 619, 787.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 624, 617. So, that’s from through from May ’44, well, all of May ’44.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were on a number of different Lancaster 2s then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On various training at Waterbeach. So that carries on to May ’44. Lancaster 2 again. LL 620. Well, 620 three times. And then I notice here 30th of May 1944 you’ve done an operation to Boulogne.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So would that have been your first operation then?
BH: I believe so, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, I’m just —
BH: The wing commander came with us. You know, the station, well the squadron commander.
DK: I’m just, I’m just jumping ahead of myself there. I’ll read this again. So, on the 30th of May ’44 you’ve left 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And gone to 514 Squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: They were both based at Waterbeach then.
BH: Yes.
DK: Oh right. I’m with you. So, 30th of May ’44 fighter affiliation Lancaster LL 620. Then you’ve taken LL 620 on the first operation to Boulogne.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, 30th of May ’44. Your first operation to Boulogne. What was that like? Because the first time over enemy territory.
BH: How I felt? [pause] Of course the first thing you know you’re going on ops is that the Battle Order goes up in the mess. Both messes. Officers and sergeants. And if your skipper’s name is on it you’re on that night.
DK: Right.
BH: And when that, from that start to the finish you, you get a bit of a grip in your tummy and you go out and you do your DI on your turret. Make sure everything is all right. You get a little idea where you’re going, the distance by what’s in the tanks, you know. If they’re quite full you know you’re on a seven to nine hour trip at least. So, it’s a bit of apprehension.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You’re, I mean I’ll be honest with you if anybody says they weren’t frightened I’m sorry I’d call them a liar. But you’re so controlled. You have to be. Once you get in the aircraft it’s different. It goes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you’ve got a job to do.
DK: And, and what exactly was your role? Your job as an air gunner. You’re, you’re there and as you say you’ve got this panoramic view all around you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What was your job?
BH: The job of both of us don’t forget that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Is, the fact is we are the eyes of the aircraft. We’re looking for fighters. We’re looking for other Lancasters because you fly, you fly in a stream you see. And your main job if you see anything is quickly report it, you know. I mean we talk between the gunners.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I see something, you see and I say, ‘I’ll keep an eye on that,’ you know, if you, what, because that could be a decoy you see. But I mean you, we were lucky. We got not too much trouble with fighters, you know.
DK: No.
BH: We saw them in time so we, we didn’t have many problems like that, but we got one or two holes from ack ack.
DK: So you, you can’t recall you were ever attacked by fighters.
BH: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We, we sussed them out you know. We, and by that, I mean by that stage we had an aircraft tracking device. Radar which the wireless operator operated so we could tell if any fighters were in the vicinities and we veered away from them.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Yeah. But that has to be, in those days it was Gee radar for navigation and then of course when we went on the Mark 3 they had the old what did you call it?
DK: H2S.
BH: Yeah, H2S. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So, I notice here your first operation then 30th of May 1944 to Boulogne that you’ve got your pilot, Pilot Officer Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It also says you’ve got Wing Commander Wyatt DFC on board.
BH: That’s the, he was the squadron commander.
DK: Right. So you’re very first op you had the squadron commander on board.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did that make you feel a bit nervy?
BH: Well, it’s, you know, he sort of, see the skipper always went on one trip before you.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: He went. What did they call it? Sit in the second dickie sort of thing to get experience. So he’d already done one.
DK: So, Warner’s done one operation already.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So, anyway went out and of course the wingco is sort of saying, you know to us, ‘Right gunners. Keep your eyes open.’ And all that, you see and Mick was saying nothing [laughs]
DK: So Wyatt was there really to keep, to see how you were performing. Was that the idea then?
BH: I think also to see what reaction he got from us.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Also to see and keep in touch with the situation with flying you know, on ops. I don’t know whether he was, had to do anything like that. I mean the flight commanders did.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They had to do, you know so many.
DK: So, so looking at your first operations then through May 1944 most of them seem to be the pre D-Day.
BH: Yes. Yes.
DK: Landing operations.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So they were sort of in to France mostly.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So, there’s a couple into France and then you’ve got one here. 12th of June 1944 Lancaster 2 again. 826. Lancaster 2, Serial 826 and its to Gelsenkirchen.
BH: Yes. The one, yeah where we had to land.
DK: It says here you landed at Woodbridge. So —
BH: That’s the name of the place. Yeah
DK: Yeah. So —
BH: That’s an emergency ‘drome.
DK: Right.
BH: There was, there was three of them about the country. There was one up in York. I think it’s called Coleby. Something like that.
DK: And Manston’s the other one isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Manston in Kent. Yeah.
DK: So what exactly happened on the Gelsenkirchen raid then?
BH: Well, we caught up with a bit of trouble you know with anti-aircraft fire.
DK: Right.
BH: And we lost the, lost the, you know, the instruments and the point was the flight engineer was, how shall I put it? Skipper lost complete confidence in him.
DK: Really.
BH: I know it’s a fright but he, anyway he went back and he said he needs retraining or something you see, you know. I think he spared him. He panicked. But it’s one thing you don’t do in the air, panic.
DK: Yeah. Had the aircraft been badly hit then? Or —
BH: No. Not too bad. It caught, it caught the sort of the front of the aircraft and I don’t know what happened to be honest about it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And when you go over there you get waves and you go up and down with the, with the anti-aircraft fire because over, over certain cities it’s, it’s immense.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean in France its reasonable, you know.
DK: So, you’ve then made an emergency landing at Woodbridge.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Because the aircraft was damaged.
BH: Well, there was no instruments.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Well, I say no instruments he’d got no flying speed. That had gone. So he didn’t know what speed he was landing at. He could land it, you know. He’d got full control of the undercarriage and the flaps. There was no problem there. It was just, you know as I said trying to. I forget. I know he’d got no airspeed indicator.
DK: Right.
BH: So what happened I don’t know really because you were just glad to get back.
DK: Yeah. So you landed at Woodbridge.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Because that’s the emergency landing ground.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the really big runway.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And it was after that point you got the new flight engineer then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because he reported back and he said he thought he needed retraining. Left it at that. And the other chap we got, the new one, Tommy Buchanan was a different person altogether.
DK: And if I could just take you back a couple of days.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I know, I know the Gelsenkirchen raid was on the 12th of June.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You actually flew on D-Day itself.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The 6th of June. Do you remember much about the D-Day operation?
BH: That that was D-Day night.
DK: Right.
BH: We were, we were on to go on D-Day and it was cancelled. Nobody was allowed out the camp. The door was guards because of secrecy, you see. And we knew. We knew what was on. Somebody yelled, ‘You’re not going anywhere. Nobody.’ There was double guards on the gates and that. Of course, they had to be. Thousands of lives at risk weren’t they?
DK: So, you were aware that was D-Day.
BH: Oh yeah. We knew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And what you’ve got there is D-Day night.
DK: Right.
BH: We went.
DK: So, D-Day night it was operations to, for the recording I’ll spell this out L I S I E U X.
BH: I’ve no idea what that was.
DK: No. That’s, that’s that being France it’s, it mentions Channel guns.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were hitting the gun emplacements.
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: And do you remember could you see much of the invasion itself as you flew over there?
BH: No, no. I mean all we saw was, all I saw was because you don’t look for that. You’re looking all the time for your own protection you see. But I did see a parachute. So somebody baled out.
DK: Right.
BH: I don’t know who it was but if one parachute means it could have been a fighter and that means it could have been a German fighter. But one parachute. You never can tell can you? Someone may have jumped.
DK: So on D-Day you were on a Lancaster again, 816. Just for the recording here the Gelsenkirchen emergency landing at Woodbridge was Lancaster 2, Mark 2, 826.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So let’s go through here then. It’s France again isn’t it because you went to Le Havre.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On the 14th of June.
[telephone ringing]
BH: Oh, excuse me.
DK: Yeah. No worries.
[recording paused]
DK: So, so through June 1944 I notice there’s, there’s one in green here. So, was one a daylight operation?
BH: Daylight. Yeah. Daylight.
DK: And that was to —
BH: That was peculiar. To go down you could see all these lakes, you know. Because the skipper was a good, he was a good [pause] He, he was trained in America so what’s the word? You’ll have to excuse me. Words fail me sometimes. Formation flying. He was good at that.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Yeah. He was good at that.
DK: So this operation it’s 21st of June 1944 to Abbeville.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And that was in daylight.
BH: Yes.
DK: And you’ve gone over in formation then.
BH: Well, straggling.
DK: Straggling.
BH: It wasn’t as good as the Americans by no way there [laughs]
DK: So you would have seen Lancasters.
BH: All around. Yes. Yes.
DK: All around you. Yeah. And how did that make you feel? Was it quite an impressive sight then, or —
BH: Yeah, because I mean you could go at night and never see them. You could feel them. You could feel the turbulence if you were near one but it’s, it’s the sight because you see we saw one aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft and he turned around and come back. We’d got fighter escort you see but they were way above and all of a sudden we saw these Spitfires come down and go alongside him. One kept alongside him. The others kept above him and behind. He got his, one engine was on fire, so whether, you know he turned around. He went against the bomber stream
DK: Yeah.
BH: On the outside, you know. So I don’t know whether he made it all.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean I should think so.
DK: But the Spitfires escorted him back did they?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So you did a number of daylight operations then.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then mostly over France again and then I noticed, so 20th of July you’re back over Germany. Homberg.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what, what was it like flying back over German cities again?
BH: Different. It’s, it’s a different feeling altogether because you’re in the pitch dark again, you know and you search, search, search. In daylight you could see everything. I mean you could get [pause] and not only that you have to make sure you’ve changed your ammunition because in daylight you’ve got daylight tracer bullets.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They’re bright obviously and at nights they’re not quite so bright. If you’ve got daylight in they frighten to death. Be like the Blackpool Illuminations. You have to check you know every time you go. You have to check your aircraft to see that they’ve changed it because you know in the hustle and bustle of a bomber station at the time it’s all go sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Day in and day out.
DK: So just talking about a normal operation then how, you’ve got the call in the morning and your pilot’s name’s up on the list.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What happened then? Was there briefings and —
BH: Well, as I said we go, it’s in the morning you, you, I mean we went to briefing probably, I don’t know what time but you know at that time of year you didn’t take off probably ‘til about 9 o’clock, 8 o’clock. Something like that. I can’t remember now. It’ll tell you in there anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And of course you go to briefing and you know you go in and of coruse there’s a guard outside the doors and you look at, you look at where the ribbon ends [laughs] That tells you. Full stop. Yeah. I mean, you got a little idea as I said the distance.
DK: So briefings then. Would they have all of the crews in there?
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And all of the —
BH: But the pilots and the bomb aimers, was it? And the navigators. Oh, the navigators. They had a special briefing before us.
DK: Right.
BH: Then we got a general briefing. I mean they get all the gen for navigating for that but we went in a general, you know. Just sit and you’re informed of your targets which you could see anyway. You’re informed why you’re going. You’re informed of all the, various people get up and tell you, you know. ‘Be careful around here. Don’t stray off course because there’s a battery of anti-aircraft there.’ And all that. ‘Fighters. Keep your eyes open because you know when they’re about,’ sort of thing. We knew that but there was general information and then of course you know you stood up when the CO come in and you sat down again. But it was about, and then there was the weather.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You get to talk about the weather and you sit there and listen to try and digest everything for your own benefit, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So after the briefing then.
BH: We had a meal.
DK: You had a meal.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Do you remember what you used to eat?
BH: Yes. Bacon and egg. I remember one trip. That was a daylight. I forget where it was now. It kept getting cancelled. We had about ten meals that day [laughs] Never felt so good. We ran out of eggs. Yeah. Mind you, I must say this. I have heard some lads where they’ve been on the camp and it’s not been, it’s been alright. We were exceptionally looked after well there. Exceptionally.
DK: And this was at Waterbeach.
BH: We had, we had fruit on the table. Mind you there was orchards all around.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Around that area. We had milk. Jugs of milk.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We were well looked after. Yes.
DK: So you’ve had the briefing and then you’ve had the meal.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you then go out to the aircraft or are you —
BH: Well, you decide then, you know. It depends.
DK: Right.
BH: Sometimes you have a little time. Or you, you then get in the aircraft or you get in the transport and they take you. And of course you sit in the aircraft waiting. Well, it depends sometimes. And then of course you take your turn to take off. Now, this is where the Mark 2 easy. Mark 3 we seemed to struggle nearly all over bloody Cambridgeshire to get up any heights.
DK: Really?
BH: But then there was always people standing by the, you know the observing what do you call it.
DK: By the runway.
BH: Yeah. You know. Waving you off.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So that would be off the ground staff then were waving you off then were they?
BH: Well, there was WAAFs. There’s all sorts. They had boyfriends and things like that, you know and then people in general used to.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did that, did that fill you with a bit of confidence that there was people waving you off?
BH: Well, I thought if they’d take the trouble.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You know. To do that, I mean. It was, there was no skin off their nose to be there. They came by voluntary terms.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Many had various reasons but it was nice to see it. Let’s put it that way. Yeah.
DK: So you found the Mark 2 Lancaster with a, presumably with a full bomb load of fuel.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Easier to get in the air than —
BH: Yes. Definitely.
DK: Than the Mark 1s and 3s.
BH: And then, of course the higher you got the Mark 3 took over.
DK: Right.
BH: You see as you got higher in the Mark 2 it got more difficult to get up there but of course you could get, you got up to about twenty two, twenty three thousand in the Mark 3. Twenty one easy.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Depend what bomb load you’d got, you know.
DK: Yeah. So just going through your logbook again then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You did 23rd of July ‘44 to Kiel.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The Naval yards.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Do you remember much about that?
BH: It was one, one of the first. We’d been twice actually but one of the most, I don’t know why but when we got there the ground was lit up as though it was daylight. I’d never known that before. I mean before you got over a target you got the target indicator. The master bomber would tell you what to bomb. You know, the colour of the TI. You know, the target indicator.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And again. Over there you got target indicators and just I could you know, I mean I could see streets below all lit up like daylight. I think, you know afterwards, after the First World War I think there was trouble there.
DK: Yeah.
BH: During the war. They thought they could perhaps you know arrange the same thing again. That’s why we went but it’s uncanny because you know it suddenly become more sort of like a daylight over the target which is, of course you’ve all the ack ack flying about.
DK: Yeah. So was it the lights of the city were on then?
BH: No. No.
DK: Or just —
BH: The Pathfinders had illuminated them.
DK: Oh, I see. Oh right. I see. So that was the Pathfinder flares.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Target indicators.
BH: Well, there was target flares on the ground.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean it was just like daylight.
DK: Right.
BH: I only can assume, you know that was the reason that they went to that target and what they did to the target. I’ve got no other ideas.
DK: And then I notice 25th of July, and 28th of July you went to Stuttgart twice.
BH: Yeah. That, I had in there the first one I think, I think it’s in there. This is it. Found this at the, they found this for me. This is my pal in Norwich.
DK: Ah.
BH: He, they’ve got to find some more for me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I couldn’t give enough information. He was at ATC with me.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
BH: He was at Mildenhall and he went on that first op.
DK: To Stuttgart.
BH: That was his first op and he never came back.
DK: Can I have a —?
BH: Yeah. That was my pal Richard.
DK: So, for the recording then this is Richard Duffield.
BH: Yeah.
DK: D U F F I E L D. Richard Duffield and this is the IBCC Losses Database.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So Richard Arthur Duffield, nineteen. Died, yeah 25th of July 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was the operation to Stuttgart.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were both on the same operation.
BH: Yeah. I didn’t know that obviously.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean I didn’t, you see at Mildenhall there was two squadrons so I wasn’t sure which one it was.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But they kindly found this out for me.
DK: So Richard Duffield then was on Lancaster LN 477.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And he —
BH: Buried at, buried in France.
DK: So he was with 622 Squadron at Mildenhall.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And reason for loss? Crashed in the outskirts of Nancy, France.
BH: Yeah. We went to ATC. Well, he used to call for me to go to ATC on his bike.
DK: So did you only find this out quite recently then?
BH: I knew he was at Mildenhall. That’s all I knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I knew. I knew, I knew George had got, because my mother wrote and told me. It’s very helpful when you’re on a squadron when one of your best pals has gone missing and I found out. I phoned up on the telephone because there was an Association, you know but they didn’t, he said there was two aircraft from Mildenhall missed that night and they said there was one survivor. Now, I think there was one survivor there if you count up. There was six graves.
DK: Right.
BH: There was seven in a crew. So I presumed it was from Richard’s aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
BH: As there was a survivor.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah. It was, fellow servicemen. One, two, three, four, five. Yeah. There’s five there so one of them would have survived wouldn’t they?
BH: Yeah. I assumed that anyway. I said they’ve got some others which they can’t find. It’s difficult. Perhaps I can, I you know, they can have another go for me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: There’s a George Chapman. He’s a navigator. George. They all, I ought to have told them this, they were all from Norwich. That would have helped wouldn’t it? But I can’t find, he was, he went missing before me.
DK: And he was in Bomber Command as well was we?
BH: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah. If you give me the names I’ll see if I can find them as well.
BH: Well, there’s one name. I mean George was not too far. He wasn’t a particular friend. I just knew him.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Richard was a friend.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I used to come with him. I used to come home on leave and this is the sad part, and I used to have to pass George’s house and his mother used to be, ‘Hello Bert. How are you?’ And she used to look at me and I used to feel guilty about being alive.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s a horrible feeling, but she was a lovely lady you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I suppose she looked at me and you know, ‘My son has gone.’ Yeah.
DK: If you give me his name later on I’ll see if I can find him.
BH: Well, the only other information I’ve got as I said he’s from, I’ve got his, I’ve got the road he lived on. Of course I can’t remember the number.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But there’s another one too. I’m not quite sure the name. Later I thought he was a policeman’s son further down the road. I didn’t know him well but I knew of him. He was Jimmy [unclear] I think that’s his name. And I’m pretty sure he was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
DK: Oh right.
BH: He was a wireless operator and he lived at Wall Road. Somewhere up Wall Road in Norwich.
DK: Right. And he was killed as well then.
BH: Oh yes. This was about, I would think about 1942.
DK: Right. I’ll make a note of the names later and —
BH: That name I’m not too sure. It began with a W, I know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Wombon or something like that.
DK: Right. Ok. Well, if he’s got the CGM.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Well, there’s [unclear]
BH: I’m sure he did afterwards I remember. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Well, I’ll try and look into that for you.
BH: Thank you very much. They’re just people. Comrades in arms sort of thing that, you know you, there was —
DK: What was the name of the Spitfire pilot from Norwich?
BH: Jim.
DK: Sorry.
BH: Tim Colman.
DK: Tim Colman.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And he survived the war did he?
BH: No.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
BH: No. And there was only one other person. You know, I’ve mentioned these names —
DK: Yeah.
BH: Who survived the war with me. There’s six of us, I believe. Another bomb aimer named George Jarmy and he, he survived it, but he had trouble with his marriage and he drove straight at a tree and killed himself.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: His mind you see. The mind’s a funny thing, isn’t it? Yeah.
DK: Definitely.
BH: I’m the only survivor. So I think there was six.
DK: So, six of you from Norwich.
BH: Yeah. Out of that parish.
DK: From that parish in Norwich.
BH: Well, it’s a big parish.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: In fact, Sprowston now is a town so you know how big it was.
DK: Yeah. Ok. So I’ll see if I can find anything on those two.
BH: Thank you very much. I don’t think there’s any more information I can give you.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I thought the address would be helpful.
DK: Yeah. I’ll see what I can do because they should be in the IBCC’s Losses Database there somewhere.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s just a question of getting enough information to find it.
BH: That’s right. To find them. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You’ve obviously got one here.
BH: I’ve got that thank you very much.
DK: No problem.
BH: I’ve said he’s, that’s the most important one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because as I said Richard was, he was a nice lad too. Quiet. Not like me [laughs]
DK: So your, your operations have gone into the end of 1944 and it looks like you’re, you’ve now converted to the Lancaster 3.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the Packard Merlin engines.
BH: Yes.
DK: So you’ve done three daylight operations then in September ’44.
BH: Yeah.
DK: In fact, it looks like you’ve gone to Le Havre twice on one day. So, Eindhoven.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 3rd of September. 6th of September, Le Havre and then the 6th of September, again Le Havre. So, would you have gone twice in one day?
BH: No. I’ve got the dates wrong there or something.
[pause]
BH: Have you got that squad? Oh, it’s —
DK: It’s my, my mistake. It’s the 3rd of September is Eindhoven.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The 5th of September Le Havre.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then the 6th of September Le Havre again.
BH: We went to Stettin. That was one. You got that?
DK: Stettin [pause] Oh, here we go. Yeah. That’s the 29th of August.
BH: Yeah. That was a fateful trip for me.
DK: Why was that?
BH: It’s a bit delicate this, I’ve got to be careful how I put this. I was sort of, if you put it taken ill the day before, and we were down to go on ops. I went, went sick. I had dysentery.
DK: Oh.
BH: And he gave me some tablets. He said, ‘See me at briefing. I’ll give you some tablets.’ Well, they were useless and I stuck. And I mean I said that I was going to, you know where you have to go about twenty odd times a day you know, and there was, I never eat much. And I mean to be honest I shouldn’t have gone on that trip.
DK: No.
BH: Because I was a liability to the crew and when you come back I stuck it for six hours and I said to the skipper we were coming back over the coast I said, ‘Can I go to the elsan at the back?’ And I just moved one muscle because I sat with my legs crossed.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I was in a [pause] I landed in the mess.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: And Jimmy, Jimmy my wireless operator, you know he came up and he put his arm round me and got me out my turret, ‘Never mind, Bert,’ he said, ‘You stuck to your post in more ways than one.’ [laughs] And I went, I went back and cleaned myself up. I, I mean the navigator said, ‘You should never have gone.’
DK: No.
BH: He said —
DK: So that was the 29th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You were in Lancaster Mark 3, 687.
BH: Nine hours. We cut the corners.
DK: I was just about to say it was nine hours not six. Nine hours to —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Operations to Stettin.
BH: Yeah. Well, six hours I stuck at my turret.
DK: Oh right. I’m with you. Right.
BH: And we cut the corners too.
DK: Right.
BH: Coming back, to get back.
DK: Get back. Right. So and it says here Stettin operation was the dock installations in support of the Russian offensive.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So it’s in support of the Russians.
BH: Well, they requested it didn’t they?
DK: So you’re last operation then is as I say the 6th of September 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Le Havre. So you did thirty altogether.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what, what was it, we talked about going off on the mission and then a bit about the missions themselves. What was it like when you came back and landed?
BH: Well, of course you get, it all depends. If it was a long trip you were, I mean I used to smoke then and those cigarettes were a Godsend. I mean, I mean I’ve often come back with my eyes bloodshot. Search. Search. Search. Search. And it’s pitch dark, you know. And when you get back of course you were all trooping all out together. Someone cracks a little joke or something. Some have a laugh. I mean, you were just whacked out after a long trip you know and you go for briefing and of course the first time we went they give you a pint of tea, and they have this little cask of rum. It’s naval rum, you know. Like treacle.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And I, and that of course, of course Jimmy who knew these WAAFs and instead of putting one tot in I went to bed pickled and I hate rum. That spoiled a good cup of tea. But then, then of course you go for a meal.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then you go to bed. Sometimes, I said, but this Mark 3 I laid there because there was still the drumming in your, and I mean our navigator what, you know although we didn’t do many ops on that he went deaf. He had a hearing aid later on because he was right beside the air, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But I mean the drumming in your ear, you know and you lay there and you think oh God. Eventually you go off and that’s it. Peace.
DK: So was it, as you were landing then is it a bit of a relief that you’re, you’re back again?
BH: Oh yes. It’s, it’s a funny, funny kind of war for the aircrew because one minute well to put it bluntly you’re trying to save your skin, and the next night you’re not on ops. You’re down town you know having a good booze up and chasing the girls sort of thing. You know what I mean? I’m being honest about it.
DK: Yeah. I was going to ask you what you did on your time off as it were, when you were? Did you go into town much?
BH: We went into Cambridge.
DK: In to Cambridge. Yeah.
BH: And we used to go in to I still remember the names of this [laughs] We used to, we found this pub in Lensfield Road. It’s called the Spread Eagle. And at that time she was an ex-lady what kept it, an ex-London actress. We found in the back room they had a piano because I played you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: The skipper played the guitar and of course once you got that, you know we were away because she, you know she used to say, I mean the skipper was I think he was twenty one over Stettin. So when we came back you know we had a party in there sort of thing.
DK: So your skipper spent his twenty first birthday —
BH: Over Stettin. Yeah.
DK: Over Stettin. Yeah.
BH: But I mean life in general, you know. In between its like, it’s like it’s one thing I said like this Jimmy [unclear] I once saw. I’d be sixteen or seventeen at the time. Something like that. He was running down, you know. I thought what is he running for? He was on leave. I was doing the same thing. Every second counted.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It didn’t matter. I mean, I mean I realise now why he was doing it, you know. He didn’t want to miss anything.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, so September ’44 then what did you go off to do then because you’d finished your tour? You’d only done the one tour then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, I say only but you’ve done the one tour.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you do after that? Did you leave the squadron at that point?
BH: Yeah. They sent me, sent me up to, there’s nothing in there but they called it a rest camp way up in Scotland. Near a place called Nairn near Inverness. I was up there for a month until they decided what to do with me and I mean of course I come back and I got, I got some more leave. I got a telegram to, and a railway warrant to be posted to RAF Manby.
DK: Oh right.
BH: The one place I hated to go. I’d been taught at Manby, you know. Training Command. And coming off a squadron which was free and easy and then come to this very strict, you know. And of course what happened was there I finished up as, I mean at that time there was, it was a hell of a big camp.
DK: Right.
BH: There was three bomb aimer’s courses, three, all instructor’s courses, three air gunner’s instructor’s courses. I think it was one or two small arms instructor’s courses, because it was an Empire Air Armaments School.
DK: Right.
BH: So all we could do was get in to a kind of a wooden hut. We couldn’t get in the mess at all because it was so, you know cramped and then of course we were, we were once I’d sort of, they kept me there much to my disgust. But the, the thing I’d finished my service. I was there until I was demobbed. Then the air gunners, after about a year I think this is roughly the air gunners moved to Leconfield. The bomb aimers went somewhere else and the small arms, I don’t know what happened to them. We were left with nothing for a while and then all of a sudden we started to get these, it was suddenly become something else. Manby. Not the Empire Armament School. And we were getting officers in.
DK: Right.
BH: On a two year course. So we were, I mean it was only I think six of us. Four or six instructors including the flight lieutenant, you know, in charge of us.
DK: So, so were you actually instructing then?
BH: Yes.
DK: You were an instructor.
BH: Ground and air.
DK: Right.
BH: Anyway, we saw these, I mean it was flight lieutenants up to squadron leaders coming on these courses. Two year courses.
DK: Right.
BH: And I went in, well two of us went in to this gunnery officer in charge, you know. Our boss. I said, ‘Well, look, we’re instructing these — ’ I said, you know I was warrant officer by then.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I said, ‘We’re only warrant officers,’ I said, ‘How can we deal with a squadron leader?’ He said, ‘When you enter that room you are automatically a rank above them.’ ‘God,’ I said, ‘That’s a quick promotion.’ [laughs] But I mean they were fine, you know. I felt at ease.
DK: Yeah.
BH: With all the instructions we had.
DK: So as a warrant officer and a trainer.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You were telling the squadron leaders what to do.
BH: Well, they were, obviously a lot of them. We also got foreign. Polish pilots on the camp.
DK: Right.
BH: We had Belgians come. We had Norwegians and all sorts. But then we finished up with this, and that’s when I had left.
DK: So, so this is Number 1 Empire —
BH: Air Armaments School.
DK: Air Armaments School.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Number 1 Empire Air Armaments School based at RAF Manby.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I notice you, you were back on Wellingtons again.
BH: That’s right.
DK: So all the training there —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was, was Wellingtons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s all Wellingtons, isn’t it?
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were there right through to —
BH: Got demobbed.
DK: Warrant officer. And you were demobbed in 1945 presumably. Oh, 1946, sorry.
BH: Seven.
DK: 1947.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Quite right. Yeah. So you were at Manby and this other place through to —
BH: About two years wasn’t it?
DK: About two years, yeah. And you were just training then for two years.
BH: Yeah. I mean, I said at one time I never had any courses and I mean I’m an active person and I got myself attached to the photographic section, you know for something to do. And I’m very interested in that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So yeah there was a corporal there. He said, ‘There should be a sergeant here,’ he said, ‘And another airman,’ he said. I’m short staffed.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll, I’ll come and help, you know. I’m glad to do something,’ you know. Oh, by the way, time I was there we had some, time I was in the photographic section they had some Italian prisoners of war.
DK: Right.
BH: And I had to go out on a, to take some photographs of a bombing sight at Saltfleetby, and I, God talk about the drive of your life. I mean Lincolnshire roads are not that clever up there. They’re windy. Anyway, they come back and it must have been three weeks later they all left. They weren’t much good anyway. The next thing I knew the station warrant officer called me in. He says, ‘I’ve got a job for you, Bert.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m in the photographic section.’ He said, ‘No. This is extra.’ So, I said, ‘Oh yeah?’ You know. But he’s a, he’s a nice chap you know. He’s one of us sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He was a time serving man. He said, ‘We’ve got eighteen German prisoners of war coming,’ he said. So I said, ‘Yeah.’ And he said, ‘And you’re in charge of them.’ So I had them ‘til, oh I don’t know how long for. I had to go down in the morning. Count them in. They could have walked out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Because they were only in part of the camp.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And go down at night and check them all in. Any mail I took back to the station headquarters and they checked it all I suppose.
DK: And this was at Manby still, was it?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And then one day the station warrant officer he says, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The German POWs are going.’ He said, ‘You’re taking them down to some camp near Sandy in Bedfordshire.’ Somewhere near. I can’t remember now. So I said, ‘How am I going to— ’ he said, ‘Oh, there’s a carriage booked at Louth. It’ll come in. There’s a whole carriage booked for you.’ So he said, ‘Here’s a rifle and —’ [laughs] And five, five bullets. I said, ‘Well, there’s eighteen of them. I shoot five and then — ’ [laughs] And also there, this is what I was saying when I started this talk.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The next thing we had, turned up I forgot to tell you this there was a Wellington crash and it caught a woman’s, I think it was a sort of a cottage.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And it killed her.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: I’d been flying and the tannoy went. ‘Warrant Officer Hammond report to the station warrant officer.’ So he said, ‘I’ve got a job for you, Bert,’ he says You’re on guard all night.’ He said, ‘You’ve got an airman there.’ he says, he says, ‘He’s bringing the truck around. You’ve got everything you want. Full the lot. Off you go.’ God, and it was cold and all.
DK: So you had to guard the crash site.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course the woman had been killed you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Were the crew killed as well or were they —
BH: No. They, they survived. There was, they were bomb aimers on.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: That’s when the bomb aimers were there. Joe got it again you see. Yeah. It was all good fun. I played football for my station so, you know I loved football.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And cricket.
DK: These, these Germans you were escorting then. Was this the first time you met Germans face to face?
BH: Yes.
DK: How did that make you feel as you had been obviously —
BH: I was.
DK: Flying above Germany just a few months before.
BH: I was a bit uncomfortable but because by then we began to know what we’d actually done you know, because I was a bit disgusted we were bombing houses.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because we weren’t told that and I was a bit apprehensive because I thought well they’ll know more than anybody. And I was, I said they used to line up and they used to and I always felt there was one German there I didn’t know whether he was taking the mickey of me or not, you know. So I had one mate there. He was a prisoner of war. He was on that Long March.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I think it was six hundred mile. He was on that so, and he was a prisoner of war. I said, ‘Would you mind coming with me, Cyril?’ I said, and I told him the reason why. He said, so anyway he stood. You know. I was counting them in and shouting out numbers and all that and he stood behind, well behind me and all of a sudden he let out in German and this fellow he was a warrant officer, a German well the equivalent anyway.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He swung to attention and there were no more trouble. But I felt he was taking the mickey out of me you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I didn’t know German but —
DK: No, but your, your colleague then who shouted out this German order —
BH: Did.
DK: Was, someone they were —
BH: That’s it. I took them back. I felt, I did feel sorry for them because it was a boiling hot day and I got to the railway station. I was met, you know. There was a truck to take you up to sign and you get your lunch there as well and as I was coming back I said, ‘What about the — ’ you know, because they were still my responsibility. But he said, ‘Oh, they’ll walk up.’ and of course I don’t know whether you know but the German prisoners of war kit bags are very, very big.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they were, they were on the side of the road whacked out, walking up. Nobody escorting them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They all thought they were going home. They were going on the farms. Yeah. God, it was a boiling hot day. They were carrying these, you know. I mean I did have some photographs of the prisoners of war. They made a walk in village out of scrap.
DK: Right.
BH: All run by water. Beautifully made.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. I took photographs of it. Yeah.
DK: So, did you, did you stay in touch with your crew after the war then?
BH: Yes.
DK: All of them.
BH: Yeah. We’ve got, I’ve got some photographs here. One of my cleaners, well she’s my friend now. One of my little angels [laughs] There’s [pause] there’s my, that’s my demob book. Look at that. There’s, oh sorry [pause] there’s that’s the other gunner.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That’s the skipper. He went on to fly. It became his career and he flew second dickie to start with for BOAC, was it?
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BH: BOAC.
DK: BOAC.
BH: Long trips.
DK: Long trips. BOAC. Yeah.
BH: That’s, that’s my dad [laughs] wireless op, Jim. And that’s, that’s me. Long shorts.
DK: So what year would that have been taken then?
BH: Oh, I don’t know. That’s —
DK: There’s a —
BH: There’s my wife there with all the rest. But I had this book and I I found my, this Lanc 2 which we did all these seventeen ops in and it’s, I don’t know what I’ve done with it. I had it the other day. I forget things. And anyway he, he I bought him one because we met up before we met this. I knew where he lived and I made contact but that was with his brother.
DK: Right.
BH: It was his home address and he put me in contact with where he was living. And then we met in Stamford.
DK: Right.
BH: At the George at Stamford. And, and I took my book of this and he said, ‘Oh, my goodness me. Look at what’s in here, Bert.’ He said. ‘One of my trips,’ I forget where it was now. In America, South America. He said, ‘We ran into a thunderstorm,’ he said. He said, ‘I was second dickie,’ and he put it down he said, ‘And we were miles from the ruddy runway but we got away with it.’
DK: Right.
BH: But he said the aircraft was in there. Funny that isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Got the aircraft we flew on during the war, and he got the aircraft he was flying in civvy which he crashed in.
DK: Which he crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So how long was he with BOAC for then? Was he [unclear]
BH: Well, then he got married. His wife was here. She was an air hostess.
DK: Right.
BH: She could be up there. In those days they could speak several languages couldn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
BH: So he went on short haul. You know. Just Europe. He made his career out of it, you know.
DK: That’s Warner, isn’t it?
BH: Warner.
DK: Warner. Yeah.
BH: Yeah. But —
DK: So, so is this, probably really finish there but one sort of final question for you all these years later how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command and Bomber Command itself?
BH: Well, a funny thing it was [pause] I mean the next door neighbour’s daughter in law she was interested so I went to go around there for a meal and I had, I had to give her little lectures because she wanted to know. And after the war I didn’t want to know anything. My wife said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I’m going to see, “The Dam Busters.” Are you coming?’ So, I said, ‘No. I don’t want to.’ I wasn’t interested. I suppose as you get older you look back.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You don’t look forward too much, and I get more memories now and they keep coming back now. Something triggers something off in your mind, you know. You forget a lot but then you remember a lot, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I will, I will say this and I’ve said if I had to live again and the same situation come which I explained I’d do the same thing again. I would.
DK: Because you mentioned earlier about finding out what was happening in the bombing.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you see that differently now or is it something that you feel —
BH: I’ve come to terms with it.
DK: Right.
BH: Because people have said. I mean. Well they were, they’ve said, well, I should, well I should know this. They were bombing Norwich and they were bombing houses.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I said I was disappointed because we were told one thing yet we were doing another. That’s what I didn’t like, you know. We were misled. We thought we were bombing military targets. The only military targets we bombed was during the days.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You know during D-Day time.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Over Germany we just let them go didn’t we? I mean the famous saying, these, you know because when you’re going on the bombing run you’re straight and level until you’ve taken your flash you know. And of course the members of the crew were, ‘Let the ruddy things go.’ [laughs] It was a bit hot over these German cities.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So after, after you dropped the bombs then you were flying straight and level for the photo to be taken.
BH: The flash. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Then you —
DK: Photoflash. Yeah.
BH: Then we dived away. But we got caught in the master searchlight once, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course as soon as that comes on that’s radar controlled. About twenty other small ones come on and the skipper put the nose down and the bomb aimer threw out Windows by the buckets full. I gradually watched the beams disappear.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Normally once you’re caught, you’re caught.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So how, how was that? Was that quite a frightening experience then in the searchlights?
BH: I was never frightened once I was, you know once I [pause] I was more frightened in the build up to it. Do you know what I mean?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Nerves. Nerves in your tummy. But once you’re in the aircraft I always felt safe. It’s a funny thing isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: You felt, though you weren’t really but I always felt there was something wrapped around me, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. I was lucky. I mean you get lots of better stories than mine. I was just an ordinary sort of person caught up in the war sort of thing, you know.
DK: Yeah. Ok then. That’s gone on for a while there but thanks for that.
BH: Well, I hope I’ve been some use.
DK: That’s been absolutely marvellous.
BH: The only other thing —
DK: Hang on. Yeah.
BH: The other thing I would like to say is during the war it was a great leveller of personnel. You could be all walks of life. I met some wonderful people. I played football with pros, and against them which I enjoyed every minute of that though I was bashed about [laughs ] because I wasn’t very weighty then. But I met at Manby, I met two people, well one person which actually changed part of my life. One of them was I can’t remember his name. I tried to find it. He was a French horn player.
DK: Right.
BH: Sergeant, oh God, isn’t it silly? I’ve got a photograph of all the instructors. He, he was nice to talk to because he, he was on a retainer for all these big orchestras and in fact he was on telly after the war. He —
DK: Right.
BH: He was then played with the orchestras and solos and that and then he was BBC judge on the, you know, “Young Musician of the Year.”
DK: Oh right.
BH: He was judge on the brass section.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And the other one what changed was a fellow called Ronnie Price. I went in to the mess one afternoon at four o’clock and of course my father taught me to play the piano but he wanted, he played all sort of semi classics, you know. He was, he taught music. And I heard this music that I thought was the radiogram, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I got past the ante-room with the two doors like that. And, oh somebody is sitting at that piano because it was a good piano, you know. I went in and I thought, ‘He is playing that.’ Took a chair up, sat beside him and he stopped playing, you know. He said, ‘Oh, do you play?’ I said, ‘Oh, not like that.’ I said, ‘That’s beautiful.’ We became sort of friends, named Ronnie Price. I don’t know. You may be a bit too [pause] He was a pianist on, “Name That Tune.”
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BH: Remember that do you?
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he was one of the top pianists in this country and abroad.
DK: Right.
BH: He had a wonderful career. He taught me no end about playing dance music. He opened doors which I never would have gone through.
DK: And that was that chance meeting in Manby.
BH: Chance meeting. He was the sound I was looking for. Like Glen Miller was looking for a sound.
DK: So was it, is that what you went into after the war then? Was it the music or —
BH: No. I played. No, I went, I went home to my own parents. My grandparents had a laundry. I didn’t know what I was going to do and I thought to myself well, my father said, ‘What are you going to do?’ My grandparents had, they’d wound it down a bit, ‘Why not take it up and build it up again?’ So I started on that but then the wife lost her father and her mother was totally invalid sort of thing in a way. Stone deaf and needed someone to be with her, you know. She was getting on. So I came up to Lincolnshire and I got a job at Fenland Laundries and then I sort of progressed through the ranks. Became a manager and that’s how I — but I played. Over the years I played part time. Not here. Never here.
DK: Right.
BH: I packed it in then. I played in holiday camps, in little bands.
DK: Right.
BH: Night clubs. I mean it’s all down to Ronnie Price. He taught me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: All sorts of [pause] well, it’s training you could not buy.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. All little techniques.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got, I’ve got no end of his. My cleaner friend she’s here this morning. Took me to the doctors. She, I’ve tried to get some CDs because he’s no longer with us now, Ronnie.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: And she’s found them.
DK: Oh wow.
BH: I’ve got about four now. So, I’ve got all his music to listen to.
DK: Wonderful.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok then. Well, I’ll stop the recording there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That’s been absolutely marvellous but thanks so much for your time.
BH: Well, I hope that’s been some use.
DK: Oh, you’ve been a lot of use. It’s been absolutely marvellous.
BH: Well, it’s, it’s nice of you to call on me.
DK: I’m more than happy to be here. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Hammond. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHammondBF180904, PHammondBF1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:25:50 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Hammond was born and brought up in Norwich. He was a grocer’s assistant and an air cadet at the start of the war. He recalls bombing attacks on Norwich and a lone aircraft machine gunning female workers leaving the Coleman’s Factory. In 1943, at the age of 18, he volunteered for the RAF as an air gunner. His initial training took place at RAF Bridlington and RAF Bridgnorth. He was posted to No. 4 Air Gunnery School, RAF Morpeth, in October 1943. His training included the use of cine-guns and target drones, and flying took place in Avro Ansons.
Posted to 26 Operational Training Unit at RAF Wing, he was formed into a crew to fly Wellingtons as a rear gunner. On one training flight, an engine failed on take-off and the pilot managed to complete a circuit before carrying out a belly landing. As Bert had learned morse code as an air cadet, he was tasked to take over as the wireless operator if necessary, therefore, moved to the mid-upper turret to be closer.
In 1944 he was posted to RAF Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire, initially with 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit to convert to Lancasters, and then to 514 Squadron as operational crew. His first operation was on the 30th of May to Boulogne. He describes a number of operations over France and Germany. On the 12th of June during an operation to Gelsenkirchen, they were hit by anti-aircraft fire putting their instruments out of action. They were diverted to RAF Woodbridge for an emergency landing.
Bert describes the differences in performance between the Mark II and Mark III Lancasters, and what happened during the day of operations. He completed his thirty operations in September 1944 and, after a period of leave, was posted to RAF Manby as an instructor with No. 1 Empire Air Armament School. He explains how he felt about the bombing of Germany, the loss of friends, and how the war was a great leveller of persons. He was demobilised in 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
England--Tyne and Wear
France--Abbeville
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Poland--Szczecin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944-03-15
1944-03-19
1944-05-30
1944-06-12
1944-06-21
1944-07-20
1944-07-25
1944-08-29
1944-09-06
1678 HCU
26 OTU
514 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Boston
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Lancaster Mk 3
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Manby
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wing
RAF Woodbridge
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/17132/PHammondBF1901.1.jpg
ea351847f2a57e04c080b6ff0326b6d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/17132/AHammondBF190212.1.mp3
ac00b22259f28678abeaf6a83b53efad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hammond, Bert
Bertram Hammond
B F Hammond
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bert Hammond. He flew operations as an air gunner with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hammond, BF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BH: Yeah. I mean I’ve sort of give an abbreviation —
DK: Ok. I’ll just, I’ll just do an introduction first.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, I’ll just say this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bert Hammond at his home on the —
BH: Do you want my proper name? Bertram or Bert?
DK: Bertram. We’ll say Bertram.
BH: That’s my proper name.
DK: Bertram. Bertram Hammond. Yeah.
BH: Bertram Frederick Hammond.
DK: Bertram Frederick Hammond on the 12th of February 2019. So, I’ll just put that there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: If I’m looking over I’m just making sure it’s still working.
BH: Yes.
DK: So we spoke a few months ago. Obviously you talked about joining the Air Force.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what do you actually remember about your time in the Air Force then?
BH: Well, I’ll start if off again now with I was born in Norwich. At a young age I joined 233 Squadron ATC. Played football and cricket. And we went flying in Bostons and a Rapide, you know from various squadrons around Norwich. Volunteered aircrew. Medical and selection board at RAF Cardington. I had to come back to have my tonsils and adenoids out. Medically unfit. Joined the RAF at ACRC, St Johns Wood. Where are we then? Had the flu, not flu, the jabs.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Inoculations there and kitted out. Then we went on to RAF Bridlington and did marching primarily there and dinghy drill. Then posted to RAF Bridgenorth. Had a lovely time there because I had a local aunt so had some wonderful Sunday lunches. Then to RAF Morpeth Air Gunnery School and you know ground tuition and flying. I was, at a young age there I was one of the youngest. I also went on these courses I was picked out as a roll of honour guard for an AOC what was coming. He never turned up. They cancelled it. And I also did guard duty. Then we were posted to 26 OTU at Wing and little Horwood which is a combination of the two where we crewed up. Flying and ground instructions and various things like that. On one night we were taking off on a cross country. This was at Waddington and it was a pretty brand new aircraft. It was a pitch dark night and just about to take off when I heard somebody call, “Mayday. Mayday.” Didn’t realise it was me. I was in the tail you see. And the skipper according to all accounts later on was not supposed to keep airborne especially on take-off. Lack of speed.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But he got it around and he landed on the belly but he got a green endorsement for getting an aircraft without crashing it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But that’s all part of what was going on in because they flew night and day.
DK: Yeah.
BH: These OTUs in those days.
DK: Was it, did he become your pilot all the time then?
BH: Yeah. Well, we crewed up there you see.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name?
BH: Yes. It was Flying Officer Michael Warner. Yeah.
DK: Ok.
BH: The other thing was that crewing up was bizarre. You just picked. Picked ab lib you know. He came up to me one day and said, ‘Would you like to be my rear gunner?’ So I felt honoured somebody had asked me [laughs] But that’s, that was the situation there. I was there quite a while. Then we went, posted to RAF Methwold. This was the escape course.
DK: Right.
BH: Training how to be —
DK: Yeah.
BH: [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then we went to, posted to Waterbeach. The one, I forget the name. It was a conversion flight which we went on to the Mark 2 Lancasters.
DK: Right.
BH: We then started a squadron. The initial first op the wing commander of the squadron came. You know, came with us. Initial flight. It’s normal when there’s a flight you can only describe this when your name goes up on the battle course, you know it’s in the officer’s and sergeant’s mess. The duty. If your skipper’s down you’re on that night. And then of course the old tummy begins to churn a bit.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You go out and do your DIs. You get an idea of the length of a trip by what’s in the tanks. The petrol tanks. Full tanks, you know it’s a long one. We had a bit of problems. We were on our way to Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhr. We got into a bit of a problem with being shot up a bit with flak. We lost a lot of instruments and the skipper decided to turn back and we made an emergency landing at RAF Woodbridge.
DK: I’ve just found that in your logbook actually.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Operation Gelsenkirchen.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it says landed at Woodbridge. And it was a Lancaster Mark 2.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s saying here that the serial number U826.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it was on the 12th of June 1944.
BH: Yeah [unclear]
DK: So that was just after D-Day then.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Did you actually drop your bombs at Gelsenkirchen?
BH: No.
DK: You came back with them.
BH: No. He lost his instruments and he decided that he’d, and we’d got no navigation whatsoever so I don’t know how he got it back that night at all but because it was pitch back and of course we, of course he’d got no airspeed indicator. He we came in a bit fast but better still than being a bit slow and stalling it.
DK: And you still had the full bomb load.
BH: No. We dumped it.
DK: Oh. Right. Ok.
BH: We dumped. We dumped. No. We dumped a cookie.
DK: Right.
BH: In the North Sea.
DK: Ok.
BH: So [laughs] where we are now? It wasn’t, I said operations were going on just the same as when you were picked and all that. You, some of the, some of the operations were quiet compared with if you went to big cities.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It was a slightly different ball game there because of the intensity of the ack ack, searchlights. Night fighters were always a problem. We went [pause] where are we now? We went to [pause] one. We were going to Stuttgart.
DK: Right.
BH: We went there twice and ironically after the war my pal Richard which you’ve kindly found you know, all the details for me. He was on his first raid. He was on that raid and he never made it back. He’s buried in France.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I may, I said it’s a coincidence I did see a Ju 88 night fighter climb out of a searchlight ready. Ready to home in on us, you know. It may have been the same one I don’t know but it’s a coincidence. After the war you learn these things.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The —
DK: And just going back to your logbook again I see you did Stuttgart on the —
BH: [That’s nine hour] Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 25th of July.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then the 28th of July 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you did Stuttgart twice in three days.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then it’s —
BH: They went, actually went four times.
DK: Four times.
BH: Four nights.
DK: Ok.
BH: Four nights on the run. Yeah.
DK: Right and you’ve mentioned here you say the industrial centre of the town. So —
BH: That’s what, that’s what they told us.
DK: Yeah. So can, can you remember what you could see over the cities then as you were approaching then?
BH: Well, I never saw much of them because being in the tail and then of course I transferred to mid-upper.
DK: Right.
BH: Because I was the only one in the aircraft besides the skipper and the wireless operator who could, who could do Morse.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean at a reasonable speed. I mean I learned it in the ATC.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So we said, ‘Well, you’re no good down the tails. If the other gunner’s prepared to swap, you know,’ he said, ‘You’re nearer in the mid-upper. You’re nearer to the wireless op.’
DK: Ok.
BH: ‘In the case of emergency.’ So that’s what I did. I did that from the start.
DK: So, were all your operations in the mid-upper gun turret then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. And the point was that you could turn and look and sometimes I probably shouldn’t have done but I had a quick look around to see where we were headed and you could see the target ahead.
DK: Right.
BH: And it looks [pause] you think, God we’ve got to go through that. You know, you think you’re never going to make it through that because I mean a big, I’m talking about big towns now like Stuttgart. Stettin we went to near Poland. Bremen. Another one was near Stuttgart. I forget the name of it now. It’s in there.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But those targets we were over big towns. They threw up everything as you might say at you, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Ok. We, I mean we were fortunate. Lucky. Call it what you like. We only had a few holes in the aircraft sometimes but they soon patched them up, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But —
DK: And what was it like then visually as you see all these guns firing at you. What? Was it colourful? Was it —
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Was it like a firework display?
BH: Well, all I can say it’s like a minor, you know London, New Year’s Eve when they have all around the river there. It was similar to that only under a controlled area of course but I mean there’s searchlights up and of course your problem then was fighters from above.
DK: Right.
BH: Because you were silhouetted against all these lights, you see. It’s like a big beam of light with ack ack flying all over the place. So you, you when you come out the other side you think how the hell did we come out? I mean to be honest about it because the point is once a bomb aimer takes control you’re steady. Steady. Steady. Steady, ‘til he drops his bombs. Then you’re still steady because you’ve got to take a photograph.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So you’d about another minute properly and that seems like eternity because I’ll be honest about it you are sitting there saying to yourself, ‘For Christ’s sake drop the ruddy things.’ [laughs]
DK: Could, could you actually hear the bomb aimer then with his instructions? [unclear]
BH: Oh yes. All of it. All on the —
DK: You were sitting at the top there and waiting for him to —
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Say, ’Bombs gone.’
BH: Yeah. He, he’s telling the pilot you see what to do.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So it’s all over the intercom. Yeah.
DK: Right.
BH: Oh yeah. The other thing is of course night fighters were the dreaded things. I mean, you searched, searched, searched and searched. I’ve often come back from, you know long trips with sort of bloodshot eyes and things like that which I’m, which I’m sure was a problem because I’ve had a lot of problems with my eyes over the latter years and I’m sure it’s, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: Partly due to that, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: From my younger days. The other thing was when you’re [pause] the Germans had a, what they called a master searchlight. A blue one.
DK: I was going to ask about that actually. Yeah.
BH: Well, we were caught once.
DK: Right.
BH: And once, once they click on it’s a radar controlled. Once they click on to you up comes supporting you know manual and we got caught this time. We were going away to Stuttgart strange as it may seem and the bomb aimer says, he says, ‘We’re coned.’ That’s right, ‘We’re coned.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he threw out Window. That’s the metal strips.
DK: Yeah.
BH: By the galore, you know [laughs] and the skipper put it into a dive and I watched the searchlight gradually disappear. Normally, once you’re coned you’re in trouble because the fighters are waiting to pounce on you.
DK: So what did the pilot do then? Did he put the aircraft into a dive?
BH: Straight dive.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. And then of course I said the bomb aimer was throwing out this Window. The metal. You know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The metallic strips. It gradually disappeared. But that’s the only time we got coned. We got caught with ack ack. But we were, I mean we were very fortunate let’s put it that way.
DK: Were you ever attacked by a night fighter at all?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No.
DK: But you did see them.
BH: We see them. We evaded them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We saw. This is the point. The whole thing, you see of, of a bomber going out is as far as we were told is to get back so we could go again the next night. Don’t put your bomber into jeopardy otherwise, you know.
DK: Do you think the role of the gunner then was more to observe rather than —
BH: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
DK: Than to fire your guns.
BH: As the skipper said, ‘You’re our eyes.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: Oh yeah. I mean this, it was not, it was not only shall we say enemy fighters. Night fighters. There was also the problem of collisions because if you put like on a big raid shall we say on a town perhaps four hundred aircraft because we start bombing and it’s all over in twenty minutes. Those four hundred aircraft are crammed into that twenty minutes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, they could be above dropping bombs on you. There could be collisions. I mean often we would avoid collisions. Seeing the aircraft, you know just above you or just, you know [pause] because we, you had to tell the skipper every move you see of an aircraft because he might make the run or suddenly dive or pull up out of the way of something and go in to the aircraft. So you have to be, you are the eyes. It’s simple as what Mick said.
DK: Yeah. It must have been quite frightening as you were in the mid-upper gun turret and seeing an aircraft above you then.
BH: Well, you just tell the, you just tell the skipper, you know. That Halifax Lancaster whatever it may be, you know, above you. You know. Otherwise keep still. Don’t move.
DK: Yeah [laughs]
BH: That was a big problem. Collisions. There, there isn’t much I can say about operations except that [pause] you always went for your briefing in the, you know and the first thing you looked at was where the tape ended to see where you were going. It’s a funny thing but you know I said you were always apprehensive. There was always a bit of nervousness.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Until you got in the aircraft and then you had a job to do. Then they used to stand at the runway and wave you off. There would always be, you know a contingent of some RAF there of some sort. But the funny thing as you got on ops, you got experienced. It became a sort of a challenge, you know. It’s a bit of excitement come into it because you know you were trying to get back home again sort of thing, you know. Safe.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: That was, that’s a feeling where I’m doing the best I can because you were a member of a crew which you became very very close. That’s all I can say about that. But it wasn’t all ops on the squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: This, where are we now? On, we went to, oh well one day of course, the skipper was an officer and we went in to of course that was a peacetime camp at Waterbeach. They had barrack rooms. So rather than go in to the mess where he couldn’t come in we went in to the barrack room so he could come and join us. He came over one morning and he said, ‘Right lads,’ he says, ‘Pack your bags, he said.’ We’re off.’ We said, ‘Where are we going?’ He said, ‘We’re going to Farnborough.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: So we said, ‘What?’ You know, we said ‘Well, what are we going there for?’ He said, ‘We don’t know until we get there.’ But he said, ‘The adjutant has just told me you’re down there.’ And we went down to Farnborough and we found out we were experimental flying with a captured Ju 88 night fighter.
DK: Oh right.
BH: It’s in the logbook there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Which is, which was a bit unconcerning because they put a hood over the, it was daylight we were doing it. Put a hood over the, over this night fighter. He was sort of flying by night you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he could home on us just like that.
DK: Really?
BH: Yeah.
DK: So were they testing the airborne radars on the —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ju 88.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And homing in on you.
BH: How they homed on to them. Yes. And it was all down through, they found it was all done through the kind of intercom system.
DK: Oh right.
BH: The next —
DK: Did you manage to get a good view of the Ju 88? Were you able to —
BH: Oh yeah. He come up you know. He homed onto us.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he was flying about all over around Farnborough and that for a while.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. But it was, it was, it didn’t give you much pleasure to find out how easy he could home in on you.
DK: I can understand that. And did you manage to have a look on board the Ju 88?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No. They wouldn’t allow us. No.
DK: No.
BH: We tried to but they wouldn’t allow us to.
DK: So you did actually land at Farnborough then.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. And then did the experiment then.
BH: Yeah. We had a, the other thing was we had our lunch there and we come back and I think we were on ops that night. I’m not sure.
DK: Actually, I’ve just found it in your logbook here.
BH: Yes.
DK: So, it’s the 8th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve gone in Lancaster Mark 2. It’s Q666.
BH: Yeah. That was from the conversion flight.
DK: Right. Ok. So you’ve flown from base to Farnborough and the next, later that day you’ve got here so that’s later that day on the 8th of August 1944 experimental flying with Ju 88.
BH: Yes.
DK: So you didn’t put in your logbook anything about the radar then.
BH: No. No.
DK: And as I see then the 18th then. So a few days later you were then operations to Bremen.
BH: Yeah. Oh of course we went the same.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I don’t know how long we [pause] I think we stopped.
DK: It looks like the 18th. Oh, it might be the same day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It might be the 8th.
BH: Anyway, the next, the next thing was that we went to a call. Got another call later. Well, I don’t know what date. What time of year. I can’t remember. It’s probably in the logbook. I never looked. The skipper came in again. He says, he says, ‘Get your, get your kit bags.’ Your bags you know. You carry your utensils in for staying a night or two. He said, ‘We’re off to RAF Benson.’ ‘What for?’ Now, previous to that the skipper had come in and he said, ‘Do you know what?’ He said, ‘I was having my breakfast this morning,’ he said, ‘In the officers mess and I said to the chappy with me, I said — ’ he said, ‘That civilian over there,’ he said, ‘God, he does look like Edward G Robinson. The film star.’ He said, ‘It is him.’ He said, ‘What’s he doing here then?’ He said, ‘Well, he’s going to make a film,’ he says, ‘And he’s come to get experience of an RAF Squadron.’ So whether it was anything to do with that I do not know.
DK: No.
BH: But a few days later we were off to RAF Benson. That’s a photographic unit.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: We made a film of some sort. I never knew much about it. I was, I was —
DK: So was he on board your aircraft then?
BH: No. No. No.
DK: Right.
BH: No. We never saw him. I never saw.
DK: Never saw him.
BH: I don’t know how long he stopped. But we went down to RAF Benson. We made a film. I was, I was in the film as a wireless. As a wireless op.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: And the skipper flew in on one, you know with one engine cut, you know. That was the photographic section. Section.
DK: Right.
BH: That was, that was —
DK: So there should be a bit of film of you somewhere then at Benson.
BH: I would have thought so.
DK: Yeah. I’ve just found it on your logbook actually.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, just for the recording here.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: It was, that was on, that was on the 4th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And you went in Lancaster 2F 612.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, base to Benson and then it looks like you flew back the next day on the 5th.
BH: Yeah. It wasn’t long.
DK: Benson to base. So there was a bit of filming going on then.
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But as —
DK: And was your aircraft filmed as well then, was it?
BH: Oh yes. But that aircraft, but these aircraft were from the conversion flight, you know.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: We didn’t, I mean obviously we couldn’t take a squadron kite because they were in use you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But I mean the O-Oboe which you’ve got there. As I said it tells you that we did, even when we went on to Mark 3 we remained as O-Oboe.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: That was our permanent aircraft, you see.
DK: I’m with you. Yeah. I see it. O.
BH: Yeah. Also, also on the where are we? [pause] visiting July was the King and Queen and Princess Elizabeth came. Came to, you know visit us there. It was all hush hush sort of thing.
DK: Was that at Waterbeach?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Waterbeach.
BH: I found some photographs on my pad.
DK: Right.
BH: Because I wasn’t sure of the date. I don’t know if it was June or July because it wouldn’t be in my logbook obviously.
DK: No. No. No.
BH: And they all did like aircraft lined up on the runway and pictures.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And all taken about that. Spitfires flying overhead.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course who it was, and nobody knew what it was. Nobody knew what it was until they arrived. Absolute circus of security.
DK: Were you introduced to the King and Queen?
BH: He went past me.
DK: Right.
BH: But the Queen, what’s known later as the Queen Mother.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: She used to call us, ‘Our little boys. Young boys.’ She was, of course you look at the photographs around here. We look so young. Well, because we look so old now [laughs]. But that was, in fact after we finished a tour we were going to PFF. 7 Squadron at Oakington. But the wireless operator, Jim he was the eldest, he said, ‘I don’t like to do this but I’ve got two boys,’ he said, ‘And I think I’ve been lucky. We’ve been lucky up until now.’ So he didn’t go and then of course we all ummed and ahhed, sort of thing. The only person what went was the bomb aimer, Cyril.
DK: Right.
BH: But I finished up then going to [pause] where are we? Went. Got posted. Posted to RAF Nairn.
DK: Right.
BH: Up in the north near Inverness. This was a aerodrome which had been built and not in use but I think it was a kind of a rest camp until they sorted you all out. There were quite a few of us there. Then I was posted to RAF Manby.
DK: Right.
BH: Air Armaments School, and became an instructor ground and air. And as I said I met some interesting people there.
DK: I see from your logbook at Manby you were flying Wellingtons again.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Were they were they quite old then and a bit clapped out?
BH: They weren’t too bad.
DK: Right.
BH: They weren’t too bad. The only thing I would say there is you often hear, you know, luck is on your side. One morning I was down to fly down to Wales. I forget the name of the camp now. We were going down to pick up another Wellington. I can’t think of the name anyway. Anyway, I was late. I missed, I missed the bus down to flight, you know. Of course, I walked down but of course by that time they’d taken off. I normally flew with a warrant officer [pause] Oh God, here we go again [pause]. Jock. I forgot his name. He’s in there somewhere. But as the day went on a big thunderstorm came over and a Flight Sergeant Townsend. That was the other one.
DK: Townsend. Yeah.
BH: He picked up this aircraft that had no ground communications at all. Should never have flown. He got into the, into the storm. He got puzzled where ever he was and just flew in to the North Sea. And I could have been on that aircraft.
DK: You could have been on it and it’s only because you missed the bus.
BH: Yeah. I was late.
DK: And that was flying, Flying Officer Townsend.
BH: Flight Sergeant.
DK: Flight Sergeant. Sorry. Flight Sergeant Townsend.
BH: Usually go warrant officer.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The other I flew a lot with. But this was [pause] I played football over there for the station with pros and against. The RAF was a great education of people during the war you come up against. As I said, Ronnie Price. I met him occasionally and he became quite, he became very famous. One of the top session musicians.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I tried to get some of his CDs. Couldn’t. And my cleaning lady who is a friend also, she saw, she got me some now.
DK: Oh good.
BH: I’ve got, I’ve got his obituary.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We used to take a paper. I’ve got it in there.
DK: You can listen to him again then.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got a player. I mean, he taught me a lot.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Taught me. I mean I’ll give a little idea when I played in little dance bands you know. I’ve played in pubs with concert rooms you know. You name it I’ve played there. Night clubs. And the night club was organists. They were pros.
DK: Is it, do you still play at all?
BH: Only for fun.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: I mean, I can’t play. My legs aren’t very good now and I, my organ is a bit of a problem so I changed. My, my Kate my friend she says, ‘Why don’t you find out?’ But she said, you know, ‘Why don’t you do this or do that and she she pushed me and thankfully she did into buying a keyboard.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: Wonderful.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Get all sorts of things on that.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. It looks very impressive.
BH: Well, it’s, it’s music was a big part of my life.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: All down to, I mean my father taught me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But Ronnie Price because I wanted to play dance music. My father was a sort of semi-classical pianist, you know. Very good.
DK: So you did thirty operations then altogether.
BH: Sorry?
DK: You did thirty operations.
BH: That’s right. Yes.
DK: With 514. So you didn’t do a second tour of operations then.
BH: No.
DK: The intention was you were going to go to the Pathfinder Force.
BH: Well, I were. We were. But as I said, you know we weren’t, if we didn’t go as a team you know we said, you know, we won’t go. I mean, as I say only one went. I mean, as far as I’m aware he survived the war.
DK: Right.
BH: Did Cyril.
DK: Did you get back in touch with your crew after the war at all?
BH: Yeah. I phoned up and we called him Mick, Michael and I was here. I mean, it was well after the war and I knew he came from Ipswich and I came from Norwich so we had a kind of affinity with being close together in, you know in that way. Counties.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I sat, I sat in my office one night and I thought to myself oh, I went through the book and I couldn’t find anything about Ipswich in it, you see. So I thought, well I went across to the post office about a week later and I thought, I wonder if they’ve got any [unclear] books there. And of course it comes under Colchester.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I found his name in there as Ipswich, you know. Michael John Walker. And, I thought, well I took down the number and gave it a ring and a lady answered the phone. So I thought, so I said, ‘I’m looking for Michael John Walker.’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ll get my son.’ Anyway, of course I explained who I was. She said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Oh, Mike, will be so pleased to hear from you,’ she said. She said, ‘I’ll give you his home address. He lives in Bedfordshire now.’
DK: Right.
BH: Lives at Bedford. He was flying. He did BOAC.
DK: Right.
BH: And then of course he got married and he went for the short hauls. And I phoned him up and as I said we met at the George you know and then I —
DK: And he was your pilot then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And he went, we went to I didn’t know who else. We contacted the other gunner. He came from Birmingham.
DK: Are they the people named in here?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Your crew.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We made contact with Jock the navigator. Jock Tait.
DK: Right. So — sorry go on.
BH: We found Jimmy Foyle, the wireless op.
DK: Right.
BH: The only one we couldn’t find was the bomb aimer Cyril and the flight engineer.
DK: Right.
BH: Tommy.
DK: That’s Tommy Buchanan.
BH: God, he was a looking, good looking [laughs] God, he was like a film star. Yeah.
DK: He’s got the right name hasn’t he? Buchanan.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, your pilot then, just for the recording then was Flying Officer Warner.
BH: Michael John Warner. Yeah.
DK: Michael John Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Your flight engineer was Buchanan.
BH: Tommy Buchanan.
DK: Sergeant Tommy Buchanan.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The bomb aimer was Flight Sergeant C Holmes.
BH: Cyril Holmes.
DK: Cyril Holmes.
BH: He became an officer.
DK: And you haven’t, you never contacted him again.
BH: No. We couldn’t find him.
DK: So the navigator was Sergeant J Tait.
BH: He became an officer.
DK: Right. And then wireless operator was Warrant Officer J Foyle.
BH: Jimmy Foyle. Yeah.
DK: So the gunners were yourself —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Bert Hammond.
BH: And Don Shepherd.
DK: Yeah. Don Shepherd. And did you contact Don Shepherd?
BH: Yeah. We used to meet up.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We used to meet up at [pause] there was, first of all there was Jimmy. The other gunner, Don. The navigator Jock Tait.
DK: Jock Tait.
BH: Tommy Tait. Jock Tait.
DK: Tommy Tait.
BH: And we first met up at Peterborough.
DK: Right.
BH: Then we went to, met up at Leicester. And then we met up again. Oh, we went to Leicester two or three times and stopped the weekend, you know. And then we went to, up to York.
DK: And this is your Lancaster here then.
BH: That’s the one I did seventeen ops in. In the Mark 2. Yeah.
DK: So you did seventeen ops and it’s Lancaster O.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 734.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Of B Flight.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: B flight of 514 Squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Waterbeach. So you did seventeen ops on the Mark 2. Were the rest on the Mark 3 then?
BH: Yeah. Well, and other Mark 2s.
DK: Other Mark 2s.
BH: Yeah. Until we got allocated to O-Oboe as our permanent one we did on N-Nuts, U-Uncle, Q-Queenie. You know. That was all on B Flight.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. And then we got allocated that and we kept O-Oboe. We went on to the Mark 3. But —
DK: And, and how did you find the different Marks of Lancaster then? The two.
BH: The Mark 2 was quiet. It was very good near the ground but it struggled up at eighteen thousand. In fact, the maximum the Mark, Mark 3 was, you seemed ages getting up but once it got higher and higher it was, you know it went up to twenty two, twenty three thousand feet.
DK: So the Mark 2 had a higher rate of climb but it couldn’t keep going then. Yeah.
BH: Couldn’t reach the maximum. The maximum was about eighteen thousand.
DK: And were they faster off the runway at all?
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So they were a faster aircraft.
BH: Yeah. On the ground.
DK: On the ground. On the ground, yeah.
BH: Yeah. On ground level shall we say.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But the equipment was, I mean we first of all we had Gee navigation which was ok up to, I think about two hundred miles. After that it faded away. Then of course we had H2S underneath which was just brilliant wasn’t it? I mean the only thing we felt, you know like the two gunners and the wireless op who operated, he had a night fighter detector. We felt that if we put out the impulse they could home on that.
DK: Picking it up. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: So we decided to, that’s why I think we survived a lot we, we relied on our eyes.
DK: Did you switch the H2S on and off then?
BH: I don’t know.
DK: Right. It wasn’t on all the time.
BH: I don’t think so.
DK: No.
BH: I don’t think so. You see the bomb, the bomb aimer was, he was an excellent map reader.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean, he could pick up on the ground. He used to give [pause] what shall I say? Help to the navigator. You know, give him fixes. What they call fixes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you think the defensive armour wasn’t very good because there was nothing looking down was there?
BH: There was on the Mark 2 if you look.
DK: Right.
BH: It’s a single gun look.
DK: Ah.
BH: Now, there aren’t many people know that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: When people says it wasn’t.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I say well I’ve got a photograph to prove it.
DK: And it’s on there. That’s Lancaster 734.
BH: It’s supposed to be the wireless op. He wouldn’t go down. He said it was too bloody cold [laughs]
DK: So it was never used then.
BH: No.
DK: But you did have one pointing down.
BH: That was the part where they used to come up. They’d got these German night fighters. I think mostly it was the Ju 88. Up guns
DK: [unclear]
BH: They used to come up from underneath.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course they come up from the dark part of the earth, you see. You got a sky you can see something in the sky even on a dark night. But the earth is pitch black.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean you were hoping for some little glimpse of something that’s all.
DK: Did the pilot move the aircraft a lot so you could see down?
BH: No. No. I used to lean over.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: I’d look underneath. And then the rear gunner used to, used to, you know [pause] specialise in looking down.
DK: Right.
BH: But I kept my look on the wings and up above.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: You know. Then of course we said, ‘Right. We’re now, we’re all on the ground, you know. We communicated.
DK: So this under belly gun then.
BH: It was a 303.
DK: It was a 303, and that was for the wireless operator to use when he —
BH: Well, there’s nobody else unless the mid-upper.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Unless the mid-upper went down.
DK: You never went down.
BH: No.
DK: So it was never really used then.
BH: Well, it wasn’t because the point was that you were restricted of view because you could only look down. You can’t look beyond you. You see what I mean?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because there’s a hole where it goes out and that’s the only view you’ve got.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So anything coming up behind you you can’t see. So —
DK: Well, you’d be looking in the dark again anyway wouldn’t you?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Looking down.
BH: I mean you’re far better to be something where you could look a little bit ahead and then look down.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This time you could only look straight down more or less. There wasn’t a lot of room to view something.
DK: Did you used to practice the corkscrew manoeuvre?
BH: Oh yeah. I mean —
DK: What was that like?
BH: I remember [laughs] I remember the first time was at OTU. I think it’s flying officer somebody calls us. He goes, he was, he was our instructor all through you know and by the time we were up there [pause] ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘We’re on corkscrew.’ And he said, you know today and he explained it all. Well, I didn’t know what to expect. I know you go down and anyway of course you had an aircraft attacking you, you see and he slung this one and it seemed to go straight down. And of course the G Force. You’re just pinned against you, I mean I was in the rear turret then because they were, they were Wellingtons.
DK: Right.
BH: You’re just pinned. You can’t fire anything because you’re just like frozen. The G Force was pushing you against the back of the ruddy turret. They pulled out at the bottom with more G Force.
DK: Yeah. The other way.
BH: Talk of that, when we were at Manby they, because it was Empire Air Armaments School they, I mean we started doing some experiment with what’s the name sight. Gyro sight.
DK: Right.
BH: Because that was always the ring and bead he you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s a new gyro sight you see. That’s all in my logbook there and we were doing all these experiments on ordinary flights. Full scale combat, you know. Fighters. Spitfires attacking you. And this particular [laughs] this particular morning I crawled down, you know. There had been the sergeant’s mess dance the night before. And anyway, this flight lieutenant there and he said, he said, ‘Oh, I’m glad you’ve arrived,’ he says, ‘Hammond.’ So I said, ‘Oh yes, sir.’ He said, ‘Well, you know what you’re on this morning.’ I said, ‘No. I’ve no idea.’ ‘Full scale combat manoeuvre.’ I thought oh God. Anyway, we went up and I’m not kidding we didn’t have one Spitfire attacking we had two. When one finished the other one started. I’m sure he did it deliberately [laughs] That was the only time I’ve ever felt sick in an aircraft. Mind you that was no breakfast.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And did you ever use this evasive manoeuvre —
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: On operations?
BH: Only on occasions where once or twice we weren’t sure if we saw anything so we made him over.
DK: Right.
BH: Just weaving. To get us a bit of you know, to look underneath, you know. But we —
DK: Did you think those that were shot down then were probably either unlucky or they weren’t trained enough to to look and weave and manoeuvre?
BH: The trouble was I feel that we weren’t aware of the German night fighters coming up underneath with these two guns pointing. I mean they just pointed to the petrol tanks.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They weren’t worried about the engine. I mean if they got the petrol tank. Boom.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean, I mean they had cannons on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They didn’t, they didn’t have just machine guns. I mean, I mean I think we weren’t aware at that time.
DK: I was going to say is that something you found out about —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Since the war. They didn’t tell you at the time.
BH: We suspected something like that but there was never anything. Not until the latter part of my tour did they mention it.
DK: Really?
BH: But I think we went, people went back you see and reported. I mean, if you’re shot down you can’t report it can you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I mean it’s, it’s a something which it’s hard to explain to people when you’re in a situation where you know there’s always tension. There’s always tension and you’re, you’re keyed up.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you know. Well, you, I don’t say you’re frightened for your life but you trying to protect your life and your comrades with you.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So you, you know you can be jumpy. That’s why I used to make sure my turret was spotlessly clean because you could be firing at a speck [laughs] on the turret. I mean, that’s how, that’s how jumpy you can get, you see.
DK: Yeah. Is that something you personally did then? Clean the turret.
BH: Oh yeah. The ground crew did it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I checked it.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. And I checked my guns. I made sure of that. Yeah.
DK: So what did you think of the Browning machine guns because they were only quite a small calibre weren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Up against the Germans.
BH: They [pause] I think primarily the mid-upper, the rear had four and I think that was a better combination.
DK: Right.
BH: For defence. Two. I don’t know whether that would be. I mean two obviously together God you’ve got six machine guns but you had to be fairly close to be effective.
DK: Yeah.
BH: There’s no good being about four hundred yards away because, you know. But I mean you know, but I mean its close encounter anyway at night but it’s going to be a sudden burst.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And it’s got to be in the right place. There’d be, I mean plenty of gunners shot down night fighters. Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Were you aware of any in your squadron who had actually shot down German —
BH: Oh yes. Oh yes.
DK: Night fighters.
BH: That’s where you get your information from.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s how they suddenly realised they were coming up underneath.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, when we first went nothing was said. It must be around about [pause] I’m only trying to remember where they went into the briefing room and the gunnery officer said, ‘Be aware of aircraft underneath. You are well aware of the Junkers 88 fitted up with two vertical guns or more or less. Coming up underneath.’ And that’s the first time it was ever mentioned.
DK: Right.
BH: Because that was information fed back by people who had survived, you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s very, I mean today, I mean I say one little thing triggers off another because you [pause] I mean when I came out of the Air Force I wasn’t interested in flying, you know. I wanted to go on with my life sort of thing, you know.
DK: But your pilot though did, didn’t he? He joined BOAC.
BH: Yeah. He went. As I say he’s somewhere in that book.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s marked there. He crashed out in, I don’t know if it was the Bahamas or somewhere out there. They ran into a storm.
DK: Right.
BH: And they survived obviously but he had a nice, made a nice career of it.
DK: And was he —
BH: He married a, he married a —
DK: A stewardess.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Mind you that was one of the old ones. She could speak two or three languages.
DK: Oh right.
BH: We’re still in contact. I mean the skipper, I’m the only survivor now.
DK: Right.
BH: But the skipper’s wife is still alive. She was a lot younger, Zina. We have a chat on the phone now and again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: She sent me a book. 514 Squadron.
DK: Right.
BH: And, and for Christmas my friend who’s a cleaner what comes today, Kate. She gave me another book.
DK: Oh right.
BH: One was operations of all 514 Squadron what Zina sent. There’s plenty of books out.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s rather strange.
DK: There are. Yes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There’s lots of them there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok then. Well, that’s, that’s been very interesting. That and our early interview.
BH: Well, it’s a bit fuller isn’t it?
DK: It is. Yeah. I mean the other was a bit more of an outline of what you did.
BH: Yes.
DK: This is a bit more full of other bits there.
BH: Well, if it’s any help. A pleasure.
DK: No. It’s been marvellous. Ok, well I’ll turn, turn the recording off now but thanks very much for that.
BH: Oh, you’re welcome.
DK: That’s very interesting.
BH: You’re most welcome.
DK: Thank you.
BH: It’s nice, it’s nice to think somebody is, is still interested.
DK: Oh yes. There’s, there’s quite a few people out there interested in it all.
BH: Yeah. I mean I —
DK: You know. Your stories.
BH: You know, when I went to meet they were very very kind there to me.
DK: Oh yes. Because you went to the BBMF recently didn’t you?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They showed you the Lancaster there then.
BH: Oh, went around it.
DK: Did you? Did they let you get on board?
BH: No.
DK: No. Oh.
BH: Of course because of my [unclear]
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: But I mean they were —
DK: I did see a picture of you there actually [unclear]
BH: I’ve got some.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got some there and I got a picture when I went to the museum and you know got, they got some pictures there as well. But I mean both places went out of their way.
DK: Yeah. Oh, that’s good.
BH: The one that I’ll tell you it’s a bit, a bit amusing because Kate’s, that’s my, you know my friend, cleaner. He was ex-RAF and he’s got a lot of contacts and he got me to the Battle of Britain Flight.
DK: Right.
BH: And he took me.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Took the day off. He’s his own boss, you know. I walked in. We sat down. It’s only another pilot from Lincoln there. It was a Veteran’s Day. What they call Veteran’s Day.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And there was another pilot from Lincoln, you see and he’d only done three ops. But that’s immaterial. He was a pilot. He experienced it didn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Anyway, sat talking. Sat down and overcame a couple of ladies because we went in to an area where they had got brochures and —
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: For sale and things like you have at your museum.
DK: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And we sat there talking and these two ladies come over and one sat down. The other one wanted, one blonde lady sat down with me and she wanted to know all particulars and all that. I wrote, she said, ‘Oh, have you got a pen.’ I said, ‘No.’ Went and got a pen from somewhere and it was one of these you could buy, you know. So anyway, she wrote all the particulars down. ‘Well, where do — ’ you know, ‘Where have you, how far have you come today?’ I said, ‘Oh, not far.’ She said, ‘Where?’ I said, ‘Leasingham.’ Well, of course it’s Leasingham. A lot of people, we —
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: Locals call it Leasingham.
DK: Leasingham. I did wonder which it was actually.
BH: Well, locals called it Leasingham.
DK: Leasingham. Ok.
BH: But I mean she said oh I only live about a couple of miles way.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So, she said, ‘Oh,’ She said, ‘I’ll be able to come and visit you there.’ So anyway, she said, ‘Oh you can have this pen.’ She had this pen and we had a snack lunch and they looked after us really well, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And after we’d looked around all the aircraft and that and of course they’re in pieces.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: And anyway, of course coming away you know of course Kate’s husband Del, he got, he borrowed a sort of pushchair and I said, ‘No. I’ll try and walk because the doctor said to try and keep walking.’
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Anyway, I’m trying and as I’m walking out to go out to the car park this arm came through my hand. I looked around there’s the blonde lady in the car park. She said, ‘Oh, I bought you this.’ A nice, nice little box of the biscuits, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: With the nice fancy lid with a Lancaster on.
DK: Oh, that was nice. That was nice of her.
BH: So she kissed me on the lips goodbye.
DK: Must have made your day then.
BH: Del, Del he’s a bit of a lad. He said, ‘Come on now,’ he said, ‘Have you finished with your girlfriend?’ I’d only just met her that day. But she would, she came here at Christmas. Lovely Christmas card.
DK: Yeah. Oh excellent.
BH: And a keyring with a Lancaster on it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wonderful.
BH: Yeah.
DK: People do show an interest. People do show an interest. Ok. Well, I’ll switch off there. Now, that’s marvellous. Thanks very much for your time.
BH: As I said, as long as, as long as we’re not because we had a rough time after the war.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Bomber command.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Nobody wanted to know us. They condemned us. And after all we didn’t know what we were dropping.
DK: No.
BH: It was pitch dark.
DK: No.
BH: Or where we were dropping it rather, I mean. And I think it’s, I think people realise now. But I mean it’s as I said we’re not looking for any accolades. We just like people to remember what it was for.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was all.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The same with the Army and Navy, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: The same. I mean, it was, it was for freedom. We won’t go on to that.
DK: No. No. Well, on that point, that’s an important point though I’ll switch off now.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Hammond. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHammondBF190212, PHammondBF1901
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:51:08 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Upon volunteering for aircrew, Bert Hammond completed basic training and formed a crew at 26 Operational Training Unit, RAF Wing. He joined 514 Squadron based at RAF Waterbeach and completed thirty operations, before instructing at RAF Manby. Despite training as a rear gunner, Hammond swapped with the mid-upper gunner due to his familiarity with morse code. He describes an emergency landing after anti-aircraft fire damaged instruments forcing them to turn back before reaching Gelsenkirchen, the terrifying view of the night sky over the city targets, and how his pilot once evaded a radar-controlled blue searchlight. He also recalls a royal visit to the squadron, experimental flying with a captured Ju 88 to test the airborne radar, and being featured in a film at RAF Benson. Hammond suggests that his most important role was not firing, but acting as the eyes of the aircraft to prevent collisions, therefore he routinely cleaned his turret before each operation. He postulates many planes were lost due to inexperience and lacking knowledge of night fighters shooting petrol tanks from below. He states the close bond and efficient communication between his crew secured their safety, hence upon completing their tour, they refused to join a pathfinder squadron after the wireless operator opted out.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
Germany
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-12
1944-07-25
1944-07-28
1944-08-04
1944-08-08
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
26 OTU
514 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Ju 88
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Benson
RAF Manby
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wing
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/994/10625/PMasonAE1801.1.jpg
5aedc13910da354d8b89320351ae81db
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/994/10625/AMasonAE181023.2.mp3
efa3bb5397a48a6ce2df16b26b5e9996
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mason, Bert
Albert Edward Mason
A E Mason
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bert Mason (1925 - 2020). He flew operations as an air gunner with 195 Squadron and Air Gunner with 195 Squadron and served on Earl Mountbatten's staff.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mason, AE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing – do you like to be known as Bert?
BM: Bert.
DK: Can I call you Bert? Bert Mason at his home on the 23rd of October 2018. So if I just put that down there. I might keep looking over. I’m just making sure it’s still going in case, the batteries don’t run out or anything.
BM: So it’s operating.
DK: It’s operating, yeah.
[Other]: Would you like a table or something?
DK: No, no I think it’ll be all right.
BM: I’ll just move some things over.
DK: It might be better if I just sort of point it at you. What I wanted to do is just move that as it’s electrical and might interfere. Okay, if I could start then Bert, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BM: Well, I joined at seventeen and three months so there wasn’t a lot to do. In actual fact the history of it is interesting. I applied for a place in the local grammar school, called you know, King John’s College, and I passed. And then the Luftwaffe came along and demolished it. So at that point I thought well what do I do now? So I then went to work for a light engineering company in Southsea, a company called, I’ve forgotten what they were called, [additional words in room indecipherable] Eldon Brothers I think they’re called and they were specialists in motorcycles and they were commissioned by the Ministry of Supply to collect motorcycles, make sure they were refurbished right standard and supply them of course for dispatch riders and believe it or not, is that still running?
DK: Yes, we’re okay.
BM: Believe it or not that became a reserved occupation would you believe, for a couple of years or more, so that’s basically what I was doing. I got a bit cheesed off with that after a while. I might say while I was doing that, I was big for my age and at fifteen I was driving ambulances you know, for Portsmouth, you know, what was then because the National Health thing, there wasn’t the National Heath then, but anyway I did that for a while and then I volunteered for the RAF at seventeen and three months, that was in July 1942, but they had a scheme running, if I go too fast for that thing -
DK: No, that’s okay, don’t worry.
BM: They had a scheme running called the Preliminary Aircrew Training Course. You may have heard of it, you may not, it was quite unique. Their idea was that people like myself, whose education was interrupted, had an opportunity to go to a technical college or some advanced form of education throughout the country, prior to actually going into the RAF itself. So I went to Rotherham, I was there for about six months, then after that I joined the RAF proper on, in July 12th, a date we remember cause we got married on that date, [cough] July 12th 1943, and then went to, I think it was St Andrews first off.
DK: Just going back a bit, was there a particular reason why you chose the RAF?
BM: Yes, there was. When I was dragging people out of bomb damaged buildings it sort of came to me, how do you strike back, you know, this sort of situation? And I thought well the only force, the only one of the forces at that point that was in a position to strike back was the RAF. So I shot off, put my name down. My father, who was a staunch Army man, was horrified, because he had it all worked out I would join his old regiment, you know. But that, that didn’t come to anything.
DK: Had your father served in the First World War then?
BM: Yes, he had. In fact I was born in Germany, in Cologne. My father was part of the Army of Occupation on the Rhine. So that was near Cologne. I was there for, I’m jumping around a bit here I’m sorry, but you can analyse it, I’m sure. But I was there for the first five years, you know, living in Cologne, in fact the first language I ever spoke was German. I had a German nanny and she and I used to prattle on in German and my mother and father didn’t have a clue what we were talking about.
DK: Can you still speak German or have you?
BM: Yes, yes, up to a point. I’m not as fluent, obviously as I was. And that came, well, we’re jumping a bit. I’ll come back to that later, So I joined the RAF under the category of PNB which you know is the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, and then of course had the initial training at St Andrews, which we were talking about just now, then went from there to Bruntingthorpe for the OTU, and then from there to place called Wigsley, you’d know it, because it’s in Lincolnshire, for the Heavy Con Unit.
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was?
BM: Yes, Number 8.
DK: Number 8, and that was at Bruntingthorpe.
BM: That was at Bruntingthorpe, near Rugby.
DK: And the number of the Heavy Conversion Unit.
BM: Yes, I remember that, number 16. HCU. That was at Wigsley.
DK: Number sixteen Heavy Conversion Unit, at Wigsley.
BM: And that was Wigsley, okay.
DK: Was the OTU then your first experience of seeing aircraft close up? Had you flown before then?
BM: No, I had no experience really of flying and certainly not in military aircraft or any form of aircraft for that matter, so yes, it was my first experience. It gets very involved after this and I have to stop and think. The, after, yes, after the Heavy Con Unit, there came, as I said, I was in the category of navigator, I was trained as a navigator but along came the RAF and said you are now in to the tail end of ’43, going in to ’44, the RAF came along and said if you chaps want to be in the big show – this was the big sell, you know – you better think about remustering, because if you remuster, you know, we can get you in fairly quickly, but you have to take a different category, otherwise you’re going to Canada or South Africa, you know, for the navigational training, and it might be eighteen months and by the time you come back from that, the war will be over. That was true enough, the war would have been over. But a lot of us, myself included, in our crew, we had a flight engineer who was an ex pilot, we had a wireless operator who was, well the Aussie crew consisted of the wireless operator, the pilot and the bomb aimer. And the rest of it was made up of Brits, so we were four Brits, three Aussies.
DK: And did you first meet your crew at the OTU?
BM: Yes, that’s when they put us together.
DK: And how did that work then? How did you get your crew together?
BM: Well what happened of course, they had all these loose bods flying about, not flying about, moving about, they put them all up at this one station, and left it to them to organise themselves into crews. Didn’t, didn’t sort of delegate, you had to sort yourselves out.
DK: And do you think that worked quite well?
BM: I think in our case it worked admirably, we’re still here! [Chuckle] Yes it worked very well. The bomb aimer, chap called Doolan, you know, sought out me first, I don’t know why, I was probably the tallest in the room, sought me out first and said my skipper is an ex flying instructor, chap called Phil Gavins, great pilot.
DK: Phil Evans?
BM: No, Gavin.
[Other]: Phil Gavins.
BM: Phil Gavins. That’s my prompt over there! Phil Gavins, and what, it’s worthwhile just to spend a moment on that. He came over to the UK in the early days of the war, thinking that he was going straight into ops thinking that was his thing, but he was so good that they immediately made him an instructor, and for two years he was an instructor. At the end of those two years he said to the RAF, either you put me on ops or I’m going home!
DK: And he was Australian?
BM: He was Australian. Flight Lieutenant. Wonderful chap. Anyway, they realised he meant it, so they promptly put him on ops. He then sought out an Aussie who was a bomb aimer and said go and find us a crew. So that brings us back to where Doolan, Tim Doolan was his job was to find the crew, so he came to me first, said come and join us, I said sounds good, he took me, he introduced me to Phil Gavins, we got on like a house on fire: no problems.
DK: And had you already been trained as an air gunner at this point?
BM: Not at this point. Not at this point. This is where it gets you know, sort of, a little bit messy because once we had sorted ourselves into crews, I won’t go into how the others were selected, but once we got the crews sorted, then it became a case of categories, and the categories came into it, and it then became obvious that we had too many of the PNB characters and not enough, you might say, of air gunners, wireless ops and flight engineers. So we spent the next three months getting ourselves sorted into the right categories.
DK: Oh right. So it was sort of done rather oddly the other way round, instead of training for one of the categories and then going to the crew, you got into the crew and then trained into the categories.
BM: Crew first. That’s how it worked.
DK: I’ve never heard of that happening before.
BM: No. Well I said it was unique and it was unique. I think the influence of Phil Gavins probably played its part. He was quite a senior bloke in the RAF and he was also a buddy of Wing Commander Kingsford Smith, now Kingsford Smith was an Aussie and great reputation et cetera and those two were quite pally, because they were Aussies and came from, both, Melbourne and that’s how it happened. And I think it was a case of Phil Gavins stood back in the wings for a while, you know, I think he went to Wigsley, ahead of us, to get familiar, at that time it was Stirlings, when we went to Wigsley initially it was Stirlings.
DK: At the OTU, what type of aircraft was it?
BM: At the OTU it was Wellingtons.
DK: Wellingtons. So your first flight then was in a Wellington was it?
BM: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington then, as an aircraft?
BM: Thought it was wonderful. It was great. You could stand in the astrodome and watch the wings in that. Virtually you could.
DK: Not sure I’d want to do that!
BM: At first you’re worried about, but then you got used to the idea; it was a unique construction as well, as you know, no we liked the Wellingtons. We didn’t like the Stirlings so much because after we finished our OTU we then, we finished on Stirlings, we were given a week’s leave and when we came back - Lancasters were in their place. We didn’t know anything about it, we thought come back to the Stirlings, but no, Stirlings had gone and Lancasters were there.
DK: And did you have any flight in the Stirlings before they went?
BM: Oh yes, yes. We did, two ops, three ops I think, on Stirlings.
DK: On the Heavy Conversion Unit?
BM: That’s right. But they were practice and training flights than anything else.
DK: And where were these operations to on the Stirlings?
BM: Mostly just on the Ruhr, I think from memory Dusseldorf was one, I can’t remember the others but, they were, because they were the Stirlings you didn’t pay too much attention to them, you’re just happy to get back, you know, because the Stirling, mind you, you could get shot up remarkably well and still come back. Probably more than the Lancaster actually, but that’s by the way. When we came back, we only had three ops on the Stirlings, so when we came back we were the Lancasters.
DK: And your ops in the Stirlings you’re the rear gunner are you or the?
BM: No, mid upper.
DK: Mid upper gunner, right.
BM: In between, I skipped that of course, I went down to Stormy Down, Stormy Down the air gunner training school, and trained there as an air gunner, so I was almost [emphasis] qualified as a navigator, so I was, on our flight we had two navigators, two air gunners, two of everything it seemed. Because Phil Gavins was a great person for everyone needs to know everyone else’s job, and he insisted on that, and I had some flights, not operationally, but some flights in training where I was actually at the controls and not just me, that applied to the crew.
DK: And just going back to your air gunnery training, is it something you took to was it?
BM: Well remarkably, I mean you know, air gunners are trained with shotguns as well, you know, to get them to feature in allowing for firing in advance of the target and things like, familiarisation, that’s what it came down to. Surprisingly I came top of the class, you know, because my, out of I think, thirty six points that you could get, I got thirty five. So I was pretty good with a shotgun.
DK: Wow! Crack shot.
[Other]: Still are, he still can!
BM: Then we got down to the real business where we came from Heavy Con Unit, we did lots of training flights on Heavy Con Unit, I think we were there in total about six weeks.
DK: And these were sort of cross country?
BM: Yeah. Mostly. And I was appalled at the number of aircraft we lost on cross country training too, fog and everything else, it had the knack of sending out in weather which I don’t think you would ever be sent out on the squadron. We lost too many aircraft in training, in my view, that’s me there. Then off to Wratting Common. Do you know the name?
DK: I know the name, yes.
BM: You’re one of the few people who do!
DK: Is it Cambridgeshire?
BM: Yes. It’s on the border of Cambridgeshire and Suffolk isn’t it.
DK: [Indecipherable]
BM: I was 195 Squadron. You’ve got a note of that haven’t you.
DK: Yes.
BM: 195 Squadron, 3 Group of course. Then we got into operations proper.
DK: And what did you think when you arrived on your operational squadron, at the base itself. What did you see when you turned up there?
BM: Well it was all exciting, I was what, then eighteen I think, yes, just, so for us it was a case of: we were in the big show, you know, let’s get up type of thing. And of course we did. So it was very exciting indeed. But what we learned from it very quickly, we were in a nissen hut, and three crews in a nissen hut and of course during the course of the time we were there, there were seven changes, in other words we lost seven crews from, we were the only one, the original crew, that still remained in that nissen hut. And we lost South Africans, Rhodesians, Canadian and of course Brits, naturally, and that was it really. So what we learned, a point to make here, what we learned is don’t get involved because you just couldn’t get too involved with people because if you did, you never knew if they’d be there when you got back. A typical thing would be go on a raid and when you got back, you’d go to bed and somewhere during the night, about three o’clock in the morning or even later, the SPs would come and in start picking up peoples’ kits from around you and taking the kits in to, you know, personal control, personal kit, and they were the people who weren’t coming back. And that, initially that got to you, as you can imagine, but after a while, you became, funnily enough, you became immune to it.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember your first actual operation on the squadron?
BM: Yes, I can cause I can always remember the Intelligence Officer, you know, making a funny, that he thought was a funny. It was a marshalling yard, and it was called Bad Oldesfloe, I’ll say it slowly: Bad Oldesfloe. So when he got up there and having given us all the spiel about targets, weather and everything else involved, he said right chaps, I want you to come back and tell me it’s now Bad old and very slow! That was his joke, but I always remember it because it was so corny. [Chuckles]
DK: Didn’t go down well then.
BM: No, it got a titter, but it didn’t get anything beyond that.
DK: So, on your operations then you were the mid upper gunner again were you?
BM: Yes.
DK: So can you just talk a little bit about how an operation would work? What you did when you got up in the morning sort of thing.
BM: Yeah, well obviously the ops, the briefings were different, you know the air gunners and flight engineers sometimes, [indecipherable], but the air gunners and wireless ops were briefed separately. And so you got up in the morning and you’d really no great demands on you, except to make sure that your guns were working et cetera and everything was okay in that respect. Then more or less you’re at a loose end, if you’re lucky you could get two or three hours of shuteye, but the navigators and the rest of the crew would go to the separate briefing where they would be briefed on waypoints and things of this nature, [indecipherable] at the target, what to look out for in terms of opposition, where to expect flak, where to expect searchlights and things like this. So our day, compared with their day, was relatively slack, But because you’re all keyed up anyway, excited, we used to go and perhaps kick a football about, you know, or play squash – in my case I played squash - and basically that was about the strength of it. But all the excitement was there, until of course it came time for you all to go for the final briefing where you were all briefed together and that usually, would be about, depends where you’re going, usually that would be about six or seven o’clock. So you all get briefed together, then go back and get kitted out, pick up parachutes and everything else involved and then you went to the aircraft, sometimes you sat in the aircraft for a couple of hours and that was a very harrowing time. Because you’re virtually biting your nails you know, because nothing much was happening. Because often, according to weather the actual op would be cancelled and that was bad too, because having got all keyed up for it, then you’d go back, relieved in one sense but at the same time, you know, sort of thinking oh, what was that all about.
DK: And are you sat in your gun turret at take off?
BM: Yes.
DK: And you’d remain there for the whole operation probably?
BM: Yes. Yes.
DK: This might sound like an obvious question but what was your role as an air gunner?
BM: Well if you’re the mid upper gunner, you had the role of, if you like, weapons controller because you can see, from the mid upper turret, you can see virtually three hundred and sixty degrees; tail gunner can’t. He can only see about a hundred and eighty degrees. So if you’re over a target or reaching a target your job naturally is to look out for enemy fighters and if you saw enemy fighters you would control the flight as it started. So a typical – funny how you remember these things – the typical thing might be, if you spotted a fighter, you know, you’d go through to the skipper straight away. [Operational voice] “Skipper, fighter fighter, port quarter up, or down, whichever, usually up, port quarter up, range six hundred”. You’d wait a little, “attack commencing, corkscrew port – go!” So you control the corkscrew. That was your job. The tail gunner didn’t because he couldn’t see enough, and you were the person one who could, so you used to control the corkscrew. But once the corkscrew started then the pilot took over.
DK: Did you practice this procedure of corkscrew?
BM: Yes.
DK Did you ever have to use it while in an attack?
BM: We used it over Kiel with good effect, we used it over Berlin with good effect, and we used it over, I was going to say Peenemunde, but we didn’t do that, there was a third occasion we used it. We didn’t do Dresden, we didn’t do Hamburg, I’m pleased to say, and we didn’t do Cologne. Funnily enough I was pleased about that cause I was born there and I didn’t want to be bombing where I was born. I’m trying to think the third place we used it; doesn’t matter.
DK: And can you remember actually seeing these German aircraft attacking you then?
BM: Yes, you can.
DK: And do you know what they were?
BM: We were credited with a kill over Kiel. Because, well the rear gunner and myself happened to psyche in on, well I think it was a raw [emphasis] German pilot, because the pilots, the idea of the corkscrew do you? You do. Well the idea of the corkscrew course is that you turn in to the attack and then you turn and go down again the opposite direction and then you start to come up. Now if the German behind you comes in he’ll follow you, theory wise, he’ll follow you in to the first turn and then he’ll pull up as you’re going into the second turn because he’d overshoot you. And this particular pilot pulled up too soon and he exposed himself to the rear gunner and myself and all we saw was lots of flame, lots of smoke and spiralling, so presumably it was a kill.
DK: And can you remember what type of German aircraft it was?
BM: Fokker 190. Yeah. They were pretty deadly, you know.
D: And you think it was, a lot of it was down to the inexperience of the German pilot?
BM: I think it was because by this time, don’t forget we were into ’44 now and because by this time they were running out of experienced pilots. So, I think it was a trainee pilot who just didn’t realise that was the wrong thing to do. And whether it cost him his life or not I can’t be sure.
DK: And so how many operations did you actually fly all together then?
BM: With Stirlings? Did you say three?
[Other]: All together.
DK: All together.
BM: All together.
[Other]: Twenty nine.
BM: Twenty nine.
DK: Twenty nine. So that was twenty six.
BM: Plus three.
DK: With 195 Squadron and three with the Stirlings.
BM: That’s right, yes. Yeah.
DK: And what was it like then, coming back, no, no, I’ll just go back a bit there.
BM: Certainly David.
DK: What was it like first of all being over the targets? You’ve reached the target, you’ve been attacked by a night fighter, what was it like, did you see over the targets themselves.
BM: Well, over the target you had so much flak, that you actually didn’t have fighter attacks over the Target. Why? Because they were scared of being shot down by their own ack-ack, as you can imagine, but over the target the flak was, you know, was horrendous, you had these crunches of shells bursting right and left of you and on you; that was you know, pretty terrible, I must say. And you can smell, you know, the cordite, it, and, not could you smell it then, when you got back into your base it was still in your coats, the smell of the cordite. But the flak was intense and that was as deadly as the night fighters frankly in my view.
DK: And could you remember the searchlights?
BM: Yes, we were one, two, three, four times we were coned. Berlin twice, murderous over Berlin, but four times we were coned, and again the experience of our pilot, if it hadn’t been for Phil Gavins I don’t think we’d be having this conversation quite frankly. You know, he managed to, he kept going straight at the deck and we thought god the wings are going to come off and all credit to the Lancaster, it’s amazing the punishment they could take in evasive actions like that, and he’d be zig-zagging as well at the same time. Once you got coned, you were lucky if you got out of it. He developed a technique for searchlights: he’d dive for so long, bank first quite sharply to starboard and then dive again, and bank quite sharply, port, about this time the searchlights were weaving about trying to pick him up again and he found, and he only did it by experience, he found that that was the most, the safest way of being able to get out of it. And we did obviously. We’re here.
DK: Could you, during your operations, see other aircraft or were you very much alone?
BM: Oh yes. Oh very much so. One of the biggest fears was being, having bombs being dropped on you. We were lucky, we had a new Lancaster which was capable of getting up to about twenty four thousand feet. I say capable, that’s with a full bomb load. Because if you’re at twenty four thousand feet you’re reasonably secure, that people weren’t going to drop their bombs on you. But I shudder to think how many people were lost, you know, because of being, friendly fire we call it these days.
DK: Can you remember how many times you actually went to Berlin then?
BM: Three times.
DK: Three times. And what was the feeling then as, pull the curtain across and you see how far east you’re going?
BM: Well, the weather of course has a lot to do with it as you can imagine and the number of times that we went and it was bright moonlight, and why they sent us out in bright moonlight. I wasn’t on this trip, but a good example is Nuremberg, you know the story of Nuremburg, bright moonlight.
DK: I’ve spoken to a couple of aircrew flying that.
BM: We were lucky, one of our crew had appendicitis and we couldn’t go or something. Otherwise we would have gone to Nuremburg. But it was fatal, it was [emphasis] fatal to go out in bright moonlight; they called it a Fighter’s Moon.
DK: So, you want weather, you don’t want the weather too bad, but you don’t want the weather too good either, do you.
BM: If you’ve got thick cloud there’s always a danger that you’re going to have a collision, you know because by this time you start out stragglers and all close up at the target, and as they all close up of course airspace becomes a bit congested and the number of times that I’ve looked out and found a Lancaster doing this within, you know, sort of within feet of you, type thing. Halifax as well.
DK: Bit scary then was it, somebody looking.
BM: You needed your wits about you the whole time.
DK: So was your aircraft ever damaged at all?
BM: Yes, shot up quite a bit, but because like all Lancs, they got patched up very quickly.
DK: Was the damage serious on any occasion?
BM: Yeah, Kiel, in Kiel we were shot up and when we got back and walked round the aircraft and had a look we couldn’t believe it. You know, bits were missing, big chunks were missing and you thought how on earth did it keep flying?
DK: I was going to say that, coming back to your operation’s finished and you’re flying back. How did that feel as you left the target and on the way home?
BM: Well at one time you’d think that’s it chaps, it’s all over, we’re home, safe and sound and the Luftwaffe got this trick of waiting at your base for you, you know. In fact, our daughter lives in Silverstone, and she lives there because she’s a motor fanatic. Formula One fanatic et cetera. But I had to tell her once, she kept on about Silverstone, and I said look, you don’t realise, I found Silverstone long before you did because I was diverted to it in 1944, early on, and the reason is, coming back to what I was saying, there was a gaggle of night fighters at our base and we’d already had three Lancs who thought they were safe that had been shot down and we were diverted to Silverstone. So we stayed Silverstone overnight and I had to tell her you aren’t the first person at Silverstone!
DK: And what would happen then, at the end of an operation as you get out the aircraft?
BM: Yes, well of course your legs are shaky, stiff as hell, you badly needed a pee, as you can imagine, that was important, sometimes it was just under the aircraft, sometimes you could wait till you got back to the Mess.
DK: You never used the chemical toilet on the aircraft then?
BM: Well moving around a Lancaster is very restricted space, and moving around on any aircraft but on the Lancaster in particular and you’ve got the big bulwark in the super-frame that you’d have to clamber, mid upper gunner’s up there and if you had to get to an elsan you had to go right back, you know. No, it’s better if you can hang on to it, and we did.
DK: So you got back, what happens then?
BM: Right, then you go for debriefing; that’s a very important part. As you got to the mess, firstly you had your operational breakfast. Because they didn’t debrief you until you’d had something to eat. So you had your eggs, you’re privileged to have your eggs and bacon as an operational crew.
DK That was a bit of a privilege then was it, your egg and bacon?
BM: Yes, yes, so we had our eggs and bacon, then you sat down with the intelligence officers, there’s usually more than one, usually two, sometimes three, and depending on where you went and the value of the target. Some targets they knew very little about and they wanted to learn about so they’d keep you there for ever, questions about what was the ack-ack like, what about night fighters, searchlights, everything else. All the questions kept coming and by this time you’re dead tired and all you want to do was get back and get your head down. But that was a very necessary part of it. Took about an hour and a half.
DK: So that’s an operation then. What did you and your crew do when you weren’t operating? Did you socialise?
BM: Keep fit.
DK: Ah. Right, okay.
BM: Keep fit. My skipper, Phil Gavins, was a fitness freak and he, [pause] not basketball, can’t call it basketball, what’s the, the male version of basketball?
DK: That is basketball, isn’t it, netball is the -
[Other]: Netball is the ladies.
DK: Basketball, yeah.
BM: It’s not netball. Oh dear. They have tournaments all the time now. Anyway, when we weren’t flying he’d have us doing something to keep fit. A lot of it of course was. Come on Prue, you’re supposed to prompt me. It’s not basketball.
[Other]: Sorry. Just trying to think myself.
DK: I think it is basketball. Cause netball is –
[Other]: Netball’s the ladies. That’s the only one I know!
DK: It must be basketball.
BM: Anyway, we got good at that, the squadron champions, played very well indeed. So that’s what he had us doing, why, and I was playing squash, and the two things, that and squash together kept you very fit and I think we were probably the fittest crew at the base. I’m quite sure of that.
DK: Really, so you didn’t go off base and socialise out, off the base at all?
BM: Well, towards the end of the war, you never knew when they’d suddenly declare an op, so they tended to keep you on base, you know, have you handy as much as anything else. There was a time early in the war once every two weeks but these were two nights, three nights on the trot, you know, so it was a case of Bomber Harris was determined to keep up maximum effort. And to do that you had to have the crews available.
DK: And as the war’s coming to an end then, how did you feel about that, the war’s end?
BM: Well we didn’t know it was coming to an end, obviously! As far as we’re concerned we were doing a daily job and sort of lucky in my case, came back, they weren’t so lucky so you didn’t count your chickens as it were, you were just very grateful you come back, and you became in the end almost believing that you were invincible. I know it sounds silly, but you thought to yourself crikey, I’ve done this, I’ve done that. You ticked off all the places you’d been to.
[Other]: Indestructible you mean.
BM: Sorry?
[Other]: Indestructible.
DK: Indestructible.
BM: Indestructible or invincible we thought, but indestructible will do. She’s allowed to prompt me! [Laugh] Yes, so towards the end we had our squadron commander, you know, had us build, would you believe, a swimming pool. So we created at Wratting Common a swimming pool which was about forty two feet by about thirty two feet so it was quite massive. Then we ran out of water! [Laugh] He didn’t stop to think. I’ll get them to build a pool, and we all did this, Phil Gavins incidentally was a builder, so he was more or less in charge, supervising any construction, at this stage was just the point. So that occupied him, and because it occupied him, it occupied us, you know, we were, it was immediately compulsory in that effect.
DK: So the make up of your crew then was the pilot was Australian?
BM: Yes.
DK: And the bomb aimer who was Australian.
BM: Yes. Wireless op was Australian.
DK: And can you remember his name?
BM: Phil Holden.
DK: Right. And the Flight engineer?
BM: Ah, flight engineer, Phil Richardson he was a pilot, Brit.
DK: And the wireless operator?
BM: He was an Aussie.
BM: And do you remember his name?
BM: Holden.
DK: Holden. And the rear gunner then.
BM: Jack Earnshaw, he was a Brit.
DK: He was a Brit. So that’s three British, four Australian.
BM: Yes. Then there was Shorty Brown, who took over as navigator.
DK: Right. And he was British as well then.
BM: He was British.
DK: And how did you get on then, how did you work together, was it?
BM: Well that was one of the, if you like, one of the highlights of the crew, we were just like a family, you could have said we were related almost, you know, because just talk about brotherly love, it existed in a high degree in all of us, you know, we played together, we worked together, we drank together as you can imagine and whatever we did, we did together. And it became, talk about bonding, you know, when I, we look back on it even now, I think to myself, how could seven people who’d never known each other develop such a close relationship. And they did.
DK: And presumably as the war’s ended you just got posted away.
BM: Well, the Aussies went home, you can imagine, and the rest of us went about various jobs after the war proper. Now, in my case, I, I don’t know how it happened but I got my name down for Tiger Force. Where in fact we thought that we’d done our share in Europe and that was it and we’d be demobbed and that was the end of it. Not a bit of it. No, no, I was still very young and so still had years on my side as it were, so they said oh no we’re going to put you down for Tiger Force.
DK: Did that come as a bit of a shock then at the time?
BM: It did! Cause we didn’t, they were going to give us Lincolns, I say going to because it didn’t happen, going to give us Lincolns, and what they did for us is to fly us out to Mauripur in India, which is Karachi, fly us out to Mauripur, wait there for the Lincolns to arrive, and then we, as experienced crews, and they only took experienced crews [indecipherable] they didn’t take any new entrants at all. Why? Because we were gonna have to fly alongside the Americans based on Okinawa, to bomb Japan, and what they didn’t want was raw recruits, you know, showing up the RAF if you like, against experienced Americans. So that was the idea. Anyway, the Lincolns, some of them came out, not many, others didn’t.
DK: So you almost got to the Far East then.
BM: Yes.
DK: You got as far as…
BM: Do you want me to carry on? That gets interesting after that. So. Yes. Well, anyway. So we to Mauripur to wait for the Lincolns to arrive, and in the meantime, the American dropped the atom bomb. Now I think then, stupidly, okay pack up your bags and home. Not a bit of it! They said your demob number is down here, and we’ve got people who’ve been in Burma and India and else involved who’s demob number’s up here so they’re going home first and you’re going to stay out here until your demob number comes up. The only thing is they don’t know what to do with us, as you can imagine. You’re not bombing anyone, you’re not killing anyone: so they didn’t know what to do with us, so I won’t, I’ll spare you the in between bits, I spent three months in Mauripur, three months mark you, playing bridge. And I’ve never played bridge since: and I never will!
DK: Did you?
BM: Morning, breakfast: bridge. Tiffin, bridge, afternoon, dinner, bridge, evening, bridge back to eleven o’clock, eight thirty in the morning, bridge! And it went on like that for three months.
DK: Did you get quite good at it?
BM: Well I was, in fact I could probably have played for the country by the time I got back. However, I went down to Ceylon, I was posted to Columbo, to Number 4 Base Postal Unit, let it register with you, Base Postal Unit, in Columbo. Why was that? Because by this time I couldn’t stay as aircrew, so by this time I was remustered as clerk, general duties; and I was a postal clerk. This is funny now, because more interesting later. So I had, what did I have? I had civil training, you know, as a postal clerk, just three weeks, just to make sure that I knew what a postal clerk did I think, as much as anything. So while I was at Columbo, I was only at Columbo for four or five months, probably, about that. By that time the demob numbers got lower and lower and they said right anyone with a certain number is going up to, had been posted to India. And I was posted to Air Headquarters, Delhi, India. This is where it gets interesting. I was there for about two days and I had a message: Mountbatten wants to see you. I thought they’re having me on, you know, [chuckle] why would Mountbatten want to see me? Right, Mountbatten wanted to see me, I was ushered into the great presence, and there was Lord Louis, he said: “hello, I hear you got postal training.” I said, “well y-y-yes I have.” “Good, so you know all about this distribution of mail business.” I said, “well I know what should happen,” he said, “good, because it’s all a bloody mess out here,” he said, “we’ve got people at SEAC, South East Asia Command, who haven’t seen mail for about three months,” he said. “We need someone to take it over: you’re in charge.” Just like that.
DK: For the whole of South East Asia.
BM: For the whole of South East Asia Command. I had my own private Dakota, my own crew, and I could fly to all the outposts, you know, and check out their postal arrangements, and I was to do it on a non-stop basis, just to make sure that this was actually happening and I was attached to Mountbatten’s staff for the best part of fourteen months, doing this.
DK: Did you get a promotion out of it?
BM: I was acting Squadron Leader because I had people I was giving orders to: Flying Officers, Flight Lieutenants et cetera and so on, and I was going to an air base and saying to them, you’ve got to do this, that and the other and they would say who are you? I was Flight Sergeant, who are you, you know, to give us instructions? So I went back to Lord Louis. It’s not going to work. Why isn’t it going to work? Cause nothing as far as he’s concerned couldn’t work, you know, why isn’t it gonna work? I said well, I said if you, would you take orders from a Flight Sergeant? “Oh,” he said, “we’ll soon sort that out!” Press a bell, in came his, what do they call it? Well anyway.
DK: Aide
BM: Aid de Camp came in and he said Acting Squadron Leader. [Chuckles]
DK: There and then!
BM: Acting Squadron Leader posted to you know, South East Command, all these piss parting as he called it, all these piss parting post officers make sure they know that they’ve got an Acting Squadron Leader coming to see them, but I never was a squadron leader, after the war I thought it might stick, but it didn’t.
DK: So were you quite impressed by Mountbatten then?
BM: Yes. If you wanted someone to talk at length about Mountbatten, I could because he was an absolutely wonderful character.
DK: So do you, once you got this posting did you see a lot of him?
BM: Yes, daily basis. I tell you why – perhaps I shouldn’t talk like this about Mountbatten – but he was a rug collector, rug collector, you know. Course he had a private home, as we know, in Romsey, which he wanted to furnish, and he loved the Indian most miserable rugs - I became an expert in rugs - rugs which were twelve foot by eight in the old money, twelve foot by eight and he loved those, and I used to go round picking them up for him with transport of course, bring them back and then send them back to the UK in diplomatic mail. [Laughter] Great big packages, rolled up of course, as much as they could, and then sent back to the UK, diplomatic mail, Lord, Earl Mountbatten.
DK: So these, you were flying these back then were you?
BM: Of course! He had his own private aircraft, as you can imagine, transport.
DK: Did you ever fly with him at all anywhere?
BM: Never did. No, never did. No, I met him at airports and briefed him on things I was I was doing, and he actually briefed me on what he was doing as well: can’t stop, I’ve got to see these so and so’s, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I found him a great character, I enjoyed my time with Mountbatten.
DK: It must have been a shock then, when he was murdered.
BM: Oh, I think I felt it as much as anyone did. Tragic that was.
DK: So how long were you on his staff for?
BM: Fourteen months.
DK: And at that point did you come back to the UK?
BM: I came back to the UK just as the India, the parting of the ways you might say. Pakistan and India was being, you know.
DK: Partitioned.
BM: The things that I saw, I can tell you that I’ve been down to Delhi Station and I watched trains come in with four thousand mutilated bodies on board, when they’d been intercepted on the way from Pakistan to Delhi, and it was tit for tat. It worked the other way as well, you know. But the amount of massacres that there were, you know. Initially it was bandits robbing the trains, but then after that it became more partisan.
DK: Sectarian violence.
DM: Yes. Well, is that holding up?
DK: Yep, no, we’re okay.
BM: There was one occasion where I had to go to, down to Delhi station, rail station and, oh I know what it was, one of our drivers, RAF driver, one of - Garry’s as they were called - one of the drivers had run over what we called the mefloquine boys and these were the chaps who, skin went yellow because of constantly taking you know, tablets that turned them yellow, but they were Buddhist priests, that’s what we were thinking of, memory fails you at times, Buddhist priests, and he ran him over and killed him. And this driver was trapped, and trapped is the right word, in the station master’s office and the stationmaster phoned Air Headquarters and said I don’t know what to do, there’s a mob gathering outside and if I try to get him out, you know, we’re going to have, I’m sure, a killing on our hands. And it could get very ugly can you do something about it? Now we had on our station about thirty Gurkhas, you know. And of course we had great respect for Gurkhas, and my CO there, what was the Air Headquarters Postal Unit, said, chap called Flight Lieutenant Wesley, and Paul Wesley said take a half a dozen Gurkhas in a Garry, go to the station and this is what you do, and I’m grateful to him, he said you’ll go in and get the driver and as you come out, get the Gurkhas to beat him up, you know. So I said beat him up? One of our own blokes? And Paul said it might save his life, because if the mob see him being physically beaten, of course the Gurkhas had what they called lethis l e t h i they were sticks which were copper bound, like a quarterstaff but much shorter and they had these sticks which they all carried and if they didn’t draw their knives, you know, then they used to use these sticks and they could do a lot of damage with. So we got this chap, and I said to him bite a stiff upper lip cause you’re going to take some punishment, he said I don’t mind, I don’t mind if it’s going to save my life.
DK: He understood why as well then.
BM: So we marched him out and he made a big show of shouting and yelling and screaming as it were, you know, marched him out, and he got unceremoniously pushed in the back of the truck and the Gurkhas got in, theoretically still hitting him, but they weren’t, stopping short of actually making contact where they could and so the mob cleared, you know, and we drove through the mob. It cleared reluctantly I might say, but they accepted what they were seeing as punishment, you know, so we managed to get him, he was on the next flight back to the UK. So there was no question of tales getting back, you know, to, as to what happened. So that was that.
DK: What did you think of India at that time then? It must have been quite an amazing place in some ways.
BM: Well it was a hotbed of violence, there was absolutely no doubt about that, and I must say, that there were a lot of immature British Army officers who were giving the wrong instructions and as a result a number of people, a number of Army units fired on Indians that they shouldn’t have done, or needn’t have done, let’s put it that way and all that did of course was add to the feeling.
DK: Provoked the situation.
BM: It did, and it became very ugly. And I recall, when we, I came back from Bombay, and they had a big march of the, and it was purposely chosen that the march of all the Brits who, left in India, there weren’t many of us, about four hundred of us by this time, left, the services this is, civil service as well. We all marched to the docks with the SS Mooltan, always remember the ship, the SS Mooltan was waiting for us, but lining the whole route: Gurkhas. All the way along, about every eight feet or so, there was a Gurkha, and they must have rounded up all the Gurkhas they had, you know, left in that particular territory and they lined the route, and got us safely to, you were asking about the tension like, got us safely, you were asking about what the tension was like, got us all safely to the dockside and we got on board and came home. But we could hear the crowd al swelling and Jahin, Jahin, Jahin. “India for the Indians,” you know, that type of thing.
DK: So you were one of the last to actually leave then.
BM: We were the last.
DK: The actual last.
BM: We were the last, yes. Cause the civil servants were flown out from the airports, you know. Mountbatten of course was immune. He was giving them their country so he was okay.
DK: And is that something you look back on, in India, as, with pride, or bit of a messy period?
BM: I think it was inevitable that it happened, I think it happened too soon, my own private view and after all, after the amount of time I spent there and in the situations that I spent there, I suppose my opinion was a good as anyone’s you think about it. Cause you could analyse what was happening and take stock of the situation probably more than the average person. Yes, it happened too soon, it could have waited because the carving up of the territory, in my view, was a bit messy.
DK: And that’s what led to the massacres you [indecipherable]
BM: Because it wasn’t done properly. I don’t blame Mountbatten, because he started out with a set plan, but then the government, Labour Government in this case, drafted in some civil servants to, if you like, put the civil service stamp on it and the people they drafted in had no experience of India. But the civil servants who were there had been in India for twenty years or more. Why on earth didn’t they leave it to them. You, know. To get it right. No, they brought them home and replaced them.
DK: Those already out there would have had all the local knowledge, wouldn’t they.
BM: They were, they were. But they felt, the thinking was, that they were there, and had been there during the time of the occupation, that they would have been tarred with that brush, you know, they’d have been part of the old regime. So they thought by bringing them back and replacing them with fresh people, you know, that that wouldn’t be the case, but the fresh people just didn’t understand it.
DK: No. So you’ve come back from India then, is that when you were demobbed? Finally.
BM: Yes, I was demobbed in March I think it was, 1947. Yes.
DK: And what did you do after you left the RAF?
BM: Well, I became, initially, I became a motor mechanic because I’d had some years in light engineering motorcycles and things like this and became a motor mechanic for a very short period. Then I became a salesman with automotive parts and things like this, very much uppermost and then I went on from that to engineering, I worked for a while GKN, you know, names that you’d be familiar with, people like Firth Cleveland, GKN, Boscombe Engineering and so on. A number of light engineering to heavy engineering companies, and then I went into exports, where my German came in. And so I had some twenty nine years, I’m ninety three, so I had twenty nine years in exports.
DK: I was surprised that while you were in the RAF your knowledge of German wasn’t used a bit better. Did they know you spoke German?
BM: Oh yes, it was used, for instance when the wireless op was getting messages in German, he’d switch them through to me and say Bert, what’s this bugger talking about. [Laugh] And so I’d listen to it for a while, cause it’s easy to switch it through when you’re flying, I would listen to it for a while, I said he’s giving our position to an absolute n-th degree, you know, because he’s picking it up from that radar. We had an advanced for, at this time which was great, the GH it’s called, ground honing, you’ll know about it of course. GH had one great flaw, it also reversed the track so what happened was that you’d be picking up your position on the ground and the ground was relaying your position to the air, so you put night fighter, fighter squadrons were able to hone in on you because of your honing. So we stopped using that after a while.
DK: And did you remain in touch with your crew after the war?
BM: Yes, in fact we had a couple of reunions at our home, [number of comments in background] not here, but bigger house we had, they came.
[Other]: Was it Kent they came?
BM: Glenpronus Avenue
[Other]: Oh yes, they came there, yes.
BM: And we kept, of course, Christmas cards and bits of news and so on.
DK: You never got out to Australia to see them?
BM: Yes, we did, yes we did, but that’s when I was working for GKN. I was sent out there to sort out some things.
[Other]: We, they met us, didn’t they, at the airport.
BM: Yes. Gave us a conducted tour and when you’ve been flying for eighteen hours the last thing you want is a conducted tour of Sydney!
[Other]: We were dead tired, but we had to go!
DK: There’s no other members of your crew still alive then?
BM: No, I believe [emphasis] I’m still the only member alive.
DK: And all these years later, how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command? All the history and everything that’s gone on since.
BM: Well I think mixed feelings, you know, because obviously when you look back and you thought about what you did, and what it was all about, I think the mixed feelings are that war is useless, as far as I’m concerned war serves no purpose at all, all it does is set one person against the other and when you think of the carnage and everything else you only have to look around you now and see what’s happening in places like Yemen and so on, to realise: total destruction. But when you think about why we did it, we did it because there was a definite purpose: Hitler had to be stopped. And the RAF at that time, in my view, they took pride in what the RAF did. I was appalled, I didn’t know at the time, but I was appalled at the extent of our losses. I mean fifty six thousand, you know, just incredible. And the thing I think now, thinking back on it, they never told us the extent of our losses, had they have done so, I wonder if we’d have gone on as we did. I just wonder.
[Other]: We’ve got very good, two very good friends haven’t we, Germans. Two males.
BM: Yes. We’ve got some good friends, German friends.
DK: So your Germans friends then were alive during the war then?
[Other]: Was Siegfried alive then?
BM: No Siegfried’s younger than us. And Kurt was younger than us. Kurt was -
[Other]: An Austrian.
BM: He was an Austrian but he was part of Hitler Youth!
[Other]:Oh yes.
BM: He was fifteen and part of Hitler Youth.
[Other]: And he’s such a lovely fellow. We’ve got him. And then there’s’ Uta. My friend, and her father. Bert was bombing Germany, and he was bombing us. Isn’t it stupid.
BM: Yes, Coventry. We used to fly in opposite directions, you know. He was a navigator with Dornier 217s I think.
DK: And is he still alive?
[Other]: No, he isn’t. No.
BM: No, he’s dead.
DK: So you visited Germany quite a lot then did you?
BM: We have done. Well, I told you I did twenty nine years in exports and when you’re working for someone like GKN and Firth Cleveland you’re making frequent trips. I used to spend six months of the year, for one period particularly, six months of the year out of the country.
DK: When you were in Germany did the war ever get mentioned at all? Something spoken about?
BM: [Laughter] Occasionally. Yes. We had, it’s a funny and it’s not part of what you want, but we took a holiday in, where was that place in Itia?
[Other]: In where?
BM: Italy, that we use to go to?
[Other]: Sirmione.
DK: Lake Garda.
BM: Lake Garda, Sirmione, we took a holiday I Sirmione and in the same hotel was a German couple and they got to hear us talking and decided they’d like to make friends with the Brits. So it all started out we had dinner with them a couple of times, he then hired a boat and said I’m going to take a trip round the lake, do you want to join us and I said yes, certainly, that’s kind of you so we joined them. And off we went and beers on board and, you know, all sorts of refreshments et cetera, schnapps and what have you, and after a while what did you do in the war. So I said I flew in the RAF. Terror fliege! Terror fliege! That’s what they said. Terror fliege! I said no, not terror fliege, I did a job he was with ack ack as it turned out, so before long it was the ack-ack being revived against, you know, the terror flieges and that was a very short boat trip, all I can say! [Laugh]
[Other]: We never got on with them at all.
BM: No, we came back very quickly. They didn’t talk to us after that and we didn’t talk to them.
[Other]: But we’ve stayed friends with the others.
BM: But I’ve met up with engineers from places like Siemens and AEG and people like this and we’ve had these sorts of discussions, but generally speaking people said it’s history.
[Other]: Well we had to do it, didn’t we. I mean what else?
BM: I mean Siegfried’s a good example, we met him in Makrat, in Spain on holiday and we’ve known them ever since, in 1962 so we’ve kept that relationship going the whole time.
[Other]: And she saved me, Bert was putting, I was very badly burnt, we didn’t know what we were doing, and I was badly burnt on my back and Bert was putting oil on top and she came over, that’s how we met, she came over and knocked the bottle of the, bottle out of his hand and practically knocked you over!
BM: Put you under a cold shower.
[Other]: Picked me up and put me under a cold shower.
BM: She’s a big girl! [Laughter]
[Other]: So that was, you know, just to show that it’s.
DK: Okay that’s great, I think we’ll stop there.
BM: Have I talked too much?
DK:, No, that’s been absolutely marvellous,
BM: Are you sure?
DK: No, great. Thanks for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Mason
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMasonAE181023, PMasonAE1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:09:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Mason was born in Germany and worked in light engineering and driving ambulances before joining the RAF in 1942. He started training as a navigator before joining a crew and became an air gunner on 195 Squadron at Wratting Common. He tells of operations: preparing, flying, escaping searchlights and fighters and then debriefing. At the end of the war he went to India and Ceylon, working for Lord Mountbatten. After the war Bert went back to engineering, travelling all over the world.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-07
1943
1944
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Northamptonshire
Germany--Bad Oldesloe
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
195 Squadron
3 Group
air gunner
aircrew
Fw 190
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Silverstone
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wratting Common
searchlight
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/PReptonB1801.1.jpg
b905c6ea618c945392e7963f17d5d221
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/AReptonB180306.2.mp3
262211d521d81a32c139676920347e53
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Repton, Betty
Betty Repton nee Jackson
B Repton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Betty Repton (b. 1922). She served as a stenographer in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Coningsby.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Repton, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EM: Just talk in a minute. Stop worrying.
DK: I’ll just, I’ll just introduce this. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre.
BR: Just interrupting. Have you —
DK: Don’t worry. Yeah. That’s ok. Don’t worry.
BR: Have you seen many elderly ladies like me?
DK: Yes. Yes. Three.
BR: Three.
DK: You’re my third.
BR: Oh.
DK: You’re my third. So, yes.
BR: And are they all with it?
DK: Oh, yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
BR: Oh yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
EM: Just like you.
DK: Now —
EM: Just keep quiet a minute.
DK: That’s ok.
EM: He’s just doing a bit of recording.
DK: Sorry.
EM: Just be quiet a minute. Yeah.
DK: So I’m interviewing, Betty Repton isn’t it?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Betty Repton, at her home, don’t worry about this, the 6th of March 2018. If I just, can I just move this over?
EM: Yeah. Do you want a maiden name?
DK: Yes. Could do.
EM: Jackson.
DK: Oh. So, that’s Betty Jackson [pause] That looks alright. Yeah.
EM: Ignore that.
DK: Ignore that. Pretend, pretend it’s not there. If I, if I lean over it’s just making sure it’s still working. So, so first of all can I ask you what you were doing immediately before the war?
BR: What was I doing?
EM: Before the war.
BR: I worked in a library.
DK: Ok.
BR: In Macclesfield. It was called a chain library and it was for the north west.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s all I did.
DK: Ok.
BR: Until the war broke out and it so happened that I was engaged to a gentleman and his parents bought him a shop.
DK: Right.
BR: And they asked me if I would leave and look after it for his twenty first birthday. And in that time he was called up for would it be the militia?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BR: I’m not quite sure.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To do training because he was called up in the Army.
DK: Right.
BR: And it so happened that I wanted to join the forces. A volunteer.
DK: Ok.
BR: And my brother was in the Navy and my other brother was in the Army so my mother said, ‘I’d like you to go in the WAAF. Then I’ve got one of you in each.’
DK: Each of the services.
BR: And I wrote to Eric, his name and told him I was going to join the forces. And he wrote back and said, “No girl of his was going in the forces.”
DK: Oh right.
BR: So that was the end of that. And so I just applied to join up and I went to Manchester to see a WAAF officer. And she gave me a test and I had to do handwriting.
DK: Right.
BR: And she said, ‘You’re a beautiful writer and you’ve a very good speaking voice.’
DK: Well, you still have.
BR: ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I’ll do, I want a job that, such as a telephonist.’
DK: Right.
BR: She said, ‘That would be ideal for you,’ and so I was put down to go on a course at Sheffield GPO.
DK: Right.
BR: To be a telephonist when they called me up. And, and then once I’d passed that I was just [pause] I’ve forgotten the word —
DK: Posted.
BR: Yes. To, well I was in the WAAF.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok.
BR: And I had to go to Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
BR: And get my training done there and then the place that I first went to was 16 MU at Stafford.
DK: A Maintenance Unit. 16 Maintenance Unit.
BR: Maintenance Unit there.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I was there and then gradually I went to various places.
DK: Right.
BR: And I ended up at a place called Winstanley Hall.
DK: Right.
BR: Near Wigan. And it was a private residence but it was very beautiful and the place that we had to travel each day was on the East Lancs’ Road and they called it RAF Blackbrook but it was underground.
DK: Oh right.
BR: And it was a switching centre.
DK: Yeah.
BR: For teleprinter operators.
DK: Right.
BR: But while I was at Stafford there were so many operators. Telephone operators.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That I never got a chance to get on the switchboard. There were so many.
DK: Yeah.
BR: So I used to sit there in the traffic office and if a message came through on the teleprinter we would get up and go and receive it and put your initials.
DK: Right.
BR: And I got so used to doing that that I thought I’d like to be a teleprinter operator. So I re-mustered and got a posting to Cranwell.
DK: Right.
BR: Where I did the teleprint. I couldn’t type at all. But everything worked out perfect.
DK: So the fact you couldn’t type —
BR: Yes.
DK: Wasn’t a problem.
BR: And so I got posted to this Winstanley Hall.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And, but during [pause]
DK: That’s ok.
BR: During this time my mother was taken ill.
DK: Right.
BR: And I had two sisters that had got children and I was the only single one. So I had to, to ask if I could be released to look after my mum which I did for three months. And in that time if she died within that time I was to be called up straightaway. And she died in the November and they called me back December. At the end of December. 1st of January 1944.
DK: Right.
BR: Because she died in 1943.
DK: Ok.
BR: And so I got posted to Scampton. That was the first posting after being released.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s it. Scampton it was.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it so happened that the Dambusters were operating there but they’d already been on the raid.
DK: Yes. Because that was —
BR: To the dams.
DK: That was 1943.
BR: So I was just one.
DK: Right.
BR: Of the WAAF, ordinary WAAF just doing a job at Scampton.
DK: And, and, and what was —
BR: And that’s —
DK: And what was your role at Scampton? Were you still on the teleprinters?
BR: What was that?
EM: Were you still a teleprinter operator?
BR: Yes.
EM: At Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I stayed to be a teleprinter operator all the time.
DK: Right.
BR: At Scampton. And then I got a posting to Syerston.
DK: Right.
BR: And from Syerston I got another posting. This was within two years of each to Coningsby.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s where I stayed until I was released from the services to go to, and get my discharge.
DK: Did, did you get to meet any of the aircrew at all?
BR: Did I?
EM: Tell, tell David while you were teleprinter operating at Scampton who, who came through the, who you handed the messages to.
BR: We handed them in. It was all to do with the flying.
DK: Right.
BR: And every time the kites took off there was a message. When they came back they was all debriefed and they put a message together and they called them a BCIR Report. Bomber Command Intelligence Report. So therefore you had to be in the section to type these messages that you plugged in to the stations around —
DK: Right.
BR: When they came back off of a raid. And they just, that was it. And it just, it was all the same.
DK: So you did this every time they went for, on a raid.
BR: Yes.
DK: And then when they came back?
BR: Yes. they went into debrief too, and I suppose the pilots told their own story because some came back and some didn’t. But they always sent a message whenever an aeroplane went off.
DK: Right.
BR: There was a message with the names of the pilot and the crew.
DK: Ok.
BR: To say they’d returned. Then they put this message together and it went to all the 5 Group.
DK: Right.
BR: Places.
DK: So eventually would, the messages would have got to headquarters here then.
BR: That was what?
EM: Where would the, would the messages have come to St Vincent’s and that? Where did the messages go? Just to the —
BR: I don’t know. I think St Vincent’s had something to do with the raid.
DK: Right. Ok. The planning.
BR: It was before I ever got. I didn’t get to the beginning of the Dambusters.
DK: No. No.
BR: To see them. It took place I think in May.
DK: Yeah. May ’43.
BR: And I didn’t get there ‘til December.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But then they, I think the Dambuster pilots and that were stationed at Petwood Hotel.
DK: That’s right. That’s correct. Yes.
BR: And I got married and I went to live at Woodhall Spa.
DK: Oh right. That’s a lovely village.
BR: And so of course I don’t know if you’ve seen the monument.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: Yeah. And I was there all the time it was being built.
DK: Oh right.
BR: So —
EM: Yeah, but —
BR: And —
EM: You’ve missed the bit about who you, you handed your bit of paper at Scampton to who did you hand your bit of paper to at Scampton?
BR: Oh, well —
EM: Guy Gibson.
BR: I just reported to the guardroom.
DK: Right. Ok.
BR: You know.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I just, I had to report.
DK: Right.
BR: To RAF Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And everything you did you had to sign in.
DK: Yeah.
BR: At the guardroom.
DK: Can you remember anybody you met there at Scampton?
BR: I met Guy Gibson.
DK: Ok.
BR: He used to walk past the window of the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: And go into the ops room. Now, the ops room was another room attached to the teleprinter off, but you wouldn’t have known that. But there was a window and if there was a message came through that had to be going to the ops —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You just knocked on the little window. It was wooden.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it was forced back.
DK: Right.
BR: And who should take the message but Guy Gibson. Because I’d seen him walk past.
DK: Yeah. But he didn’t speak to you then.
BR: No.
DK: No. Oh.
BR: No. No. You just handed the message and that was it. But I saw him pass and I think he’d got the dog and then it was killed.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I don’t know if it was killed in the time I was there.
DK: I think it would have been before.
BR: Which I think it probably was. And from that it was just routine. Every day the same. I just went on duty.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And off duty and that was it.
DK: Where did you used to go off duty? Was there anywhere you went?
BR: What was that, Elaine?
EM: When you were Scampton where did you live? Where did you, what did you used to do when you were off duty?
BR: We were billeted at Dunholme.
DK: Right. Yeah. I know.
BR: Across the road, down in to Dunholme village.
DK: I know.
BR: And there were Nissen huts.
DK: Right.
BR: And we stayed in those until I got a posting to Syerston. Then got to Syerston and we were in a block. I don’t know if it was G block.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I think they called it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And —
DK: Did you, did you get on well with your other WAAFs?
BR: Yes. Made some wonderful friends.
DK: Ok.
BR: And little things happened. I sent a BCIR report, Bomber Command Intelligence Report this particular day and it was very long and the flight sergeant in Scampton office said, ‘Betty, if you can send this report without making three mistakes you will get your corporal badges.’ And I said to him, ‘Flight, I don’t want promotion. I don’t like giving orders.’ But now, you see, oh I think I was stupid but I’d just been a country girl.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Lived in a village and I don’t like giving orders to other, to other WAAFs.
DK: Did, did you used to watch the aircraft take off?
BR: No.
DK: On the raids.
BR: No.
DK: No.
BR: No. I was either on duty, and when we weren’t on duty we were down at Dunholme.
DK: Right.
BR: That was the billet.
DK: So you never really saw the activity on the airfields then.
BR: No. So, I was trying to think of something that I did at 16 MU.
EM: She’s got some nice photographs.
BR: Oh, the first time, it was the first posting I had, and another WAAF and I were going into Stafford. So you had to go to the guard room and report and sign.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And the WAAF officer there, well it was corporal, her name was Corporal Blood. Which I shall never forget.
DK: What a great name.
BR: And she said to me, ‘And which bus did you drive?’ I said, ‘I beg your pardon, corporal?’ She said, ‘Which bus did you drive?’ And I was flabbergasted. And she whipped my hat off and she plonked it on straight and she said, ‘That is how you wear your hat.’ Not —
DK: Oh. Like that. Yeah.
BR: Not at an angle.
DK: Like a bus driver. Yeah.
BR: And so I always remember her name and what she said.
DK: Yeah.
EM: I wonder if she’s still about.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And then she said, ‘Get off.’
DK: Oh dear.
BR: And that was the first, I thought I’ve got to be careful.
DK: I’ll tell you what shall I just pause it there? Shall I? Shall I just stop. Thanks.
[recording paused]
DK: Ok. Carry on.
BR: When I was at Woodhall Spa a WAAF had bought a cloth a yard wide.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was plain. And she got people to sign it.
DK: Right.
BR: And she ran up to me for some reason and she said, ‘Betty, would you sign my cloth?’ So, I said, ‘I’d be delighted to,’ but it was my maiden name obviously and she embroidered my name on it and all the others that she asked.
DK: Right.
BR: The local reporter for the Horncastle News said could anybody, could they issue any information as to how that came about because the girl had lost it.
DK: Right.
BR: And it was found behind a cupboard at Coningsby. One of these metal containers that —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know further in. And they’d found the cloth at the back. So she never took it home.
DK: Do you know what year they found it?
BR: And funnily enough does that prove?
EM: Yeah. What it was.
BR: It was the girl’s.
DK: Oh, here we go. 1986?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 1986.
EM: And then they’ve lost it again.
DK: Oh.
BR: And so that —
DK: Oh no.
BR: I took that photograph of the girls and I phoned. Bill Skelton his name was and he said, I said —
EM: Horncastle News.
DK: Yeah.
BR: ‘I think I can help you with the cloth.’ He says, ‘Never.’ I said, ‘I can because my name’s on it.’ So he came to see me.
DK: Right. So —
BR: And it was put in the paper. Then a few years after.
DK: So you’re on that then.
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Here it is all about the cloth.
DK: Right.
EM: And they’ve lost the cloth again.
DK: So where was it last seen then? At Coningsby?
EM: Coningsby.
BR: So that’s Coningsby. My last station.
DK: Right.
BR: And there are the girls there. And the girl that did it was this one.
DK: Ok. Can you remember their name?
BR: That’s Wendy Taylor.
DK: Wendy Taylor.
BR: So, Mr Skelton that was, he wrote a bit about the paper and said they’d found —
DK: Right.
BR: But it disappeared again and a WAAF officer wrote the next part of it.
DK: Right.
BR: Is it there?
DK: There’s a new museum at Coningsby. I wonder —
EM: We’ve been.
DK: Oh right.
EM: We went a week last Monday.
DK: Ok.
EM: And she mentioned the cloth.
DK: And they’ve got no —
EM: No. They’ve lost, and they lost it and we mentioned it didn’t we?
BR: Yeah.
DK: What a shame.
EM: And I think her name was Donna who’s there now. And she’s going to see if she can find it. But that is, that’s history.
DK: Oh sure. Yeah.
EM: And it’s a fabulous story.
DK: Yeah.
EM: They found in 1986.
DK: ’86. And lost it again.
EM: But she’s going to try to find it again. Probably through social media. You know, this is how you’re going to have to get it out there.
DK: Well, what I can do is if I, if you can send me a copy of this I can put it on the IBCC’s Facebook page.
EM: Yeah.
DK: And see if that brings out any information.
EM: Well, the thing for me to do then —
DK: Yeah.
EM: If I scanned that and that.
DK: Scanned that and that.
BR: That’s the next letter —
EM: There look.
BR: That came.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah. I’m going to scan these for David and send them to him.
DK: Right.
EM: And he’s going to see whether they can find the cloth or any of the people.
DK: Yeah. We can put an appeal out there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: On the Facebook pages.
BR: There were about the second time they contacted me for that one.
EM: Yeah.
BR: For the cloth.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was a WAAF officer and that. Is there a write up about it?
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see what we can do.
BR: And —
DK: I can get both the IBCC to look into it on their Facebook page and also the Coningsby Aviation Museum that’s recently opened. Or the Historical Centre or whatever it’s called.
EM: Yeah. But as I say we were there.
DK: Yeah.
EM: And they just seemed totally aghast that anyone and I said well this had been going on and as I say it’s 1944/46 look.
DK: So it was lost between the late 40s and about eighty —
EM: ’86. Found in ’86 and lost again.
DK: Oh dear.
BR: What’s the date of that? That one.
EM: It’s 1986.
BR: Yeah. Yes, so —
EM: But I’ll do that.
BR: I don’t think she ever got it, but its disappeared and it isn’t in the museum.
DK: Well, we —
BR: And that’s what they wanted.
DK: We’ll have to see what we can do.
BR: And they asked me on Monday if I would take the cloth to show them but we never got the chance.
DK: Right. Well, what I can do is I can send, if you email me all that I can send that to them. Both Coningsby and —
EM: Yeah.
DK: IBCC and they can put out an appeal for it then.
EM: Yeah. Because the other thing I don’t know if you’ve noticed somebody’s written on there Dinah Shaw.
DK: Right.
EM: And there’s a singer called Dinah Shaw.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EM: And they don’t, is that right? Dinah Shaw. Isn’t there a singer?
BR: Dinah Shaw.
EM: Dinah Shaw. Dinah Shaw. And they’re not sure if it was the Dinah Shaw who was the singer who put her name on that cloth.
BR: Well, it probably was but I don’t know.
DK: Right. Right.
EM: And she’s quite a famous —
DK: Yeah.
EM: Person. Which is why they’ve written that there look.
DK: Yeah. So whereabouts is your mother’s name?
EM: Mum’s on this —
BR: I don’t know why. I don’t know why.
EM: Betty Jackson.
DK: Oh, Betty Jackson. There you go.
BR: Wendy came to me and there’s my name on there.
EM: Yeah. Your name’s there look. On the bottom.
BR: Yeah. E Jackson.
EM: Betty. No, Betty Jackson.
BR: I put Betty. Yeah.
EM: Yeah. But you see there Douglas Craig, all the names are quite —
DK: Quite clear aren’t they?
EM: Quite clear aren’t they? I mean I don’t know what they’d be like —
BR: And there’s lots of girls in there from other stations that I’ve kept at the back.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And put the names under.
DK: Well, it would be good if you could get all the names to the faces.
BR: Yeah.
EM: What do you want me to do then? Get the names?
DK: If you get the names to the faces on there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: I can either come back and scan these myself if you like.
EM: Well, it’s up to you.
DK: Or scan them.
EM: I can scan them at work and send them from work.
DK: We just need them at six hundred BPI.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Six hundred. Or DPI is it? Six hundred DPI.
EM: Dots per inch.
DK: Dots per inch.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Six hundred DPI. If you can do that you can then just email them to me.
EM: Right. What I’ll do then I’ll get her to name, you see. I mean again they’re all here look.
DK: They were. Yeah. I see you’ve got a missing one there.
BR: Yeah. What’s that one?
DK: That’s —
EM: Peggy. Oh, Peggy Hassel. I don’t know where she’s gone.
BR: Yes.
DK: She’s [unclear]
EM: Oh, she’s there mum.
DK: [unclear]
BR: Oh yes. She’s there. Peggy Hassel.
EM: But they’re fabulous photographs aren’t they?
DK: They are aren’t they?
EM: I don’t know what that is.
BR: It was a job to get your photograph.
EM: What’s that? Who did that?
BR: Percy Bexton. Doesn’t it say on there?
EM: Yeah. And who was Percy Bexton, 1946?
BR: Yes. He was at Scampton and he was in the office. He says, ‘I’ll give you something to remind you, Betty of me and that’s what he did for me.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yeah.
EM: They’re great, aren’t they?
BR: And that’s how I looked.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: When I got there.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah.
BR: That’s the one that’s enlarged there and —
EM: They’re good though aren’t they?
DK: So that’s Winstanley Hall in the background was it?
EM: That’s Winstanley Hall, isn’t it?
BR: Yes. That’s Winstanley Hall. And why I’m sitting amongst the daffodil apparently every year when the daffodils came out they were picked and given and sold to the hospital in Wigan.
DK: Ok. Right.
BR: And that’s the reason I’m sitting there with that in the background.
DK: I know the IBCC would love those photos.
BR: We were in Nissen huts.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That’s where we are in slacks and that.
EM: Yeah.
BR: It was a day off —
EM: Well, I’ll go through with you.
BR: Yeah.
EM: And make notes and then if I can scan everything.
BR: Yeah.
DK: And send to you.
DK: And send them to me.
EM: And you can choose.
DK: And I can send them on.
EM: What you want and don’t want, can’t you?
DK: Particularly the cuttings and we’ll see if we can —
EM: Yeah.
DK: Put the message out there about the lost cloth.
EM: But from Scampton then you went to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: No. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Right.
BR: But it was just, I think some of the Dambusters were posted there but I wouldn’t be certain.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I never bothered about them. We never bothered about them. We were just WAAFs going on duty. Then we, that was it.
DK: So you didn’t mix with the men much then. Mix with a group.
BR: Well, we did because there was always a dance on the camp.
DK: Right.
BR: And the odd one would come to it but you’d just, they’d just come up and say, ‘Come on,’ you know, ‘I’ll have this dance with you.’ And you didn’t, it never made everything.
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know. They were just, when we were off duty we went to the dance. It was on every week. It wasn’t anything special and I wasn’t a dancer.
DK: Yeah. So how, so you left in 1946.
BR: 19 —
DK: ‘46. Yeah.
EM: You left. When did you go to Coningsby then? In 1945.
DK: ’45.
BR: Yes.
EM: Why? Did you get posted to Coningsby?
BR: Yes. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Yeah.
BR: From Syerston to Coningsby.
EM: Right.
BR: In 1945.
EM: Right. And so you were a teleprinter operator.
BR: And I was a teleprinter operator.
EM: At Coningsby.
BR: All the time. Yeah.
EM: But they, where did you live in Coningsby? You were in the Nissen huts in Pilgrim Square.
BR: We were. That’s right. That’s where those pictures were taken.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Outside with that cloth.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was Coningsby.
DK: So what, what was it like in a Nissen hut? Was it a bit cold?
BR: You see. I wish I could tell what he said.
EM: What was it like living in the Nissen huts?
BR: Well, it was alright because it was really, you slept in them and then you was going on duty and then when you come off duty if you were free we’d go in to Lincoln. To the YMCA. But Lincoln was not, it wasn’t a long way to Lincoln from Scampton.
EM: Oh, Scampton. We’re back at Scampton now.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: But that’s what you did. And if not we went to the Nissen huts and —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Didn’t do anything there. We just used to sit around the fire and talk.
EM: What about when you were Coningsby? Where did you go when you were at Coningsby?
BR: Coningsby. Well, we were stationed at Pilgrim Square.
EM: Yeah.
BR: In the Nissen huts.
EM: Yeah.
BR: And well I shouldn’t say this it’s where my husband, where I met my husband. And if you want to know that story it’s lovely.
DK: Oh, well go on then. If you’re happy to tell it. What, what was your husband doing?
BR: He was a GPO engineer.
DK: Right.
BR: And he was, he wasn’t in the forces. What was it?
EM: Civil service wasn’t he?
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Reserved Occupation.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BR: His area was Woodhall Spa, Horncastle, Digby RAF, Coningsby RAF. Everything to do with —
DK: Right.
BR: And he was at Blankney Hall when it burned down. And Stan came to mend the teleprinter I was on.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And also the telephone exchange was just there adjoining the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: So he went to mend the fault on the switchboard, came off and went to the room which was the GPO room to wash his hands. And he came back with his hands wet through and I said, ‘Here you are. Dry them on my towel. I’m going on leave for the weekend.’ So that was it. Off he went. About a quarter of an hour later the telephone rang and a voice said, ‘When did you say I was going to take you out?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think you’ve had a bit of bad luck. I’m going on a forty eight hour pass.’ And he asked the girls in this, what he knew, when I was coming back. And they said, ‘She’ll be back in Monday night. And she’s got to be in by 23.59.’ And he sat and waited for me at Coningsby Station for, to watch me get off the train. And there he sat in his little Austin 7. And he said, and I could have dropped dead, and he came and opened the door and he said, ‘I’ve come to pick you up.’ He said, ‘There’s a good film on at Boston. Would you like to go and see it with me?’ He said, ‘We’ll get you back for midnight.’ So off we went to Boston to see this lovely film.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Which was?
BR: Eh?
EM: What was the film?
BR: Oh dear.
EM: I know what the film was.
BR: What was it?
EM: “State Fair.”
BR: “State Fair.” That’s it. And that was it. And from then on when he came to the camp we just kept going out together and —
DK: So, so it was a good thing you were in the WAAFs then. Because of that you met your husband.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: You met, you met dad through being in the WAAF and posted to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yes. That was the last place.
EM: That’s why she lived in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right.
EM: Because he lived at Woodhall Spa.
BR: And in my off duty Stan would pick me up. He’d be going out to one of the villages like South Kyme.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To a little telephone exchange and I’d go with him.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But if we saw another PO van he used to say, ‘Duck down,’ because —
DK: You shouldn’t have been there.
BR: I shouldn’t have been in it. But that’s what we did all the time.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I think let’s wrap up here.
BR: And we got married.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And went to live in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right, then. Can I, can I just ask you finally how do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF? How do you look back on it now?
BR: What was that?
EM: How do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF?
BR: Yes. I loved every minute of it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was so interesting and it was a routine. And —
EM: But you enjoyed it didn’t you?
BR: Yes. I did.
EM: And you met some lovely people.
BR: Yes. And they were going to have a Ruhr tour.
DK: Right.
BR: That was to see the damage.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BR: And every so often the aircraft, the Lanc —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Flew. This was just after the war. Oh, I don’t know if the war was on and you could put your name down for a Ruhr Tour.
DK: Right.
BR: And so I put my name down but I never got on the Ruhr Tour because I got demobbed in April ’41.
DK: So you never flew then all the time.
BR: No.
DK: When you were a WAAF.
BR: No.
EM: She never got to.
BR: That would have been the icing.
DK: I should say.
BR: And if I hadn’t met Stan, and we were getting married I would put my name down for, was it Singapore?
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was going to stay in the WAAF.
DK: Right.
BR: And go off to Singapore. But it didn’t happen.
DK: It didn’t happen. No. Ok.
BR: And —
DK: Sorry, go on
BR: So that’s it.
DK: Ok, that’s great. I’ll stop it.
BR: There’s lots of little things that happened that, you know.
EM: What?
DK: Yeah.
BR: The one that sticks in my mind. Oh, when I was on the parade ground the first night being a volunteer there was a lot of girls turned up but by morning a lot of girls had gone back home because they could.
DK: Right.
BR: So of course we had to stay because they were going to issue uniform and the WAAF officer went around with a corporal I think to see if your hair was off your collar. And mine as you can see was quite curly and she pulled it out of, down on to my collar to see if it was going to touch my collar and she said, ‘Barber’s shop,’ to this corporal. And I said, ‘What does that mean?’ Well, I could. I couldn’t turn around and say, ‘Why am I going there?’ And so she said, ‘You’ll have your hair cut to a certain length.’ And I went to the barber’s shop and there was a young lad in it, and he was going to cut my hair and I said, ‘You’re not doing that.’ He said, ‘I’ve got to cut some of it off.’ So I told him how much he could take off which he did. And from then on I lost the curls that I did.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And got, put it in a roll. You put it in a roll and tucked it in, you know. And that was alright.
DK: So long as it was off your collar.
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To get it off my collar.
DK: Your collar. Yeah.
BR: And then of course I go first time out the corporal plonked my hat on.
DK: Can’t win.
BR: And funny how I remember her name. Corporal Blood.
EM: It’s good though, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EM: Ok.
DK: Ok. Well we’ll stop it there. Thanks. Thanks very much for that.
[recording paused]
That was David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Betty Repton nee Jackson at her home [buzz] on the 9th of March 2018. Also there was her daughter Elaine Mablethorpe. That’s Elaine Mablethorpe. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty Repton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AReptonB180306, PReptonB1801
Format
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00:37:08 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Description
An account of the resource
Betty (nee Jackson) worked in a library in Macclesfield before the war. When the war broke out, she went to Manchester to volunteer for the Air Force and trained as a telephonist. She did a course at Sheffield General Post Office before being posted to RAF Bridgnorth for training and then to 16 Maintenance Unit at RAF Stafford. Following training as a Teleprinter Operator at RAF Blackbrook she re-mustered and was posted to RAF Cranwell. She was released for three months to look after her ailing mother and was called back to the RAF in December 1944, being posted to RAF Scampton and later to RAF Syerston and then RAF Coningsby, where she stayed until being demobbed. When at RAF Scampton she was billeted in Nissen huts at RAF Dunholme Lodge. She handled Bomber Command intelligence report messages whenever a crew returned and met Guy Gibson. Betty met her husband Stan, a civilian General Post Office engineer, when being stationed at RAF Coningsby. Betty remembered a RAF officer who had a cloth embroidered with names of staff, but it had since been lost. When Betty and Stan married, they lived at RAF Woodhall Spa. Betty said she had loved every minute of her time in the RAF.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-12
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
5 Group
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
Nissen hut
RAF Blackbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Scampton
RAF Stafford
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1034/11406/AMinnittPB170314.2.mp3
de81edc494e14a67df6220d791edcd59
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Minnitt, Bruce
P B Minnitt
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bruce Minnitt (1923- 2020, 1232347 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 211 and 244 Squadron Coastal Command and with a Ferry Unit in the Far East.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Minnitt, PB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bruce Minnitt on the 13th of March 2017 at his home. If I just pop that down there. You'll see me keep looking down.
BM: Well, I'm not familiar with all these modern gizmos.
DK: No. I’m not [laughs] I'm not either to be honest. The technology hasn't let me down yet but there is always a first time. So if I keep looking down I’m just making sure they're both going. It says one’s going there. So what, what I’d like to just ask is just a few questions and whatever and just sort of get a bit of background. First of all, what I would like to know is what were you doing immediately before the war?
BM: Thinking that the war started in September 1939. Well, let's getaway a little bit in so far as our age is concerned. I was born in 1923.
DK: Right.
BM: So that made me when war broke out in 1939 I was sixteen.
DK: So you were still at, still at school.
BM: No.
DK: Ah. Right. Ok.
BM: I left school fourteen days after I was fourteen years old.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: So my education has been sadly neglected during my lifetime and as it happened upon leaving school I was very fortunate because fourteen days after leaving school I had a job.
DK: Oh right.
BM: But my grandfather owned the local village shop and my father of course was part of that concern and I got a job. Ten shillings a week. It was wonderful for the hours that were put in.
DK: And that was working in the shop was it?
BM: And I was working in the shop as a —
DK: Yeah.
BM: A lad with an apron around me and I was [pause] I enjoyed it and the experience did me good because after a couple of years my father arranged for me to go to Lincoln and I got a job as a sort of an apprentice working for the best grocers in Lincoln. I used to think they were the best grocers because they had a couple of nice little vans and I used to drive around Lincoln. I was only sixteen —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Years old. I didn't have a licence of course. We used to drive all around Lincoln. No problem. Never, never got bothered by anybody and so I had a couple of years of experience in that and then I went back home and very soon I joined up. I actually volunteered, myself and another friend when we were both [pause] How old would we be? Seventeen and three quarters. I joined up in February.
DK: Was there any, any reason why you chose the RAF? Was —
BM: Well yes of course. I mean it was so glamorous, wasn't it? I mean, we were always going to be Tail End Charlies. I joined up as a, at least I thought I joined up as a tail gunner.
DK: Right.
BM: On bombers. I mean, in 1940, ‘41 rather they were looking for bombers because the high point of the fighters had gone. I was trained as, as a fighter.
DK: Right.
BM: On singles.
DK: Right.
BM: And I did, then I did a navigation course on Ansons and, in Canada whatever. And then we came back from Canada to this country and the first thing of course that I had to do was a conversion course.
DK: Just, just stepping back a bit your, by this time you’ve, you’re a pilot then are you?
BM: I was. Yes. I got my wings in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: But it didn't matter really whether I was a fighter pilot, bomber pilot or whatever.
DK: Right.
BM: I think they used to move us around as and when required. I mean the fighter era really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Was in 1940.
DK: So, what, what was the first type of aircraft that you were trained on?
BM: The first one that I actually went and did my original training on and got, went solo on was a Magister.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Now, I don't whether you've heard —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Of those.
DK: I know the Magisters.
BM: Magisters. A lovely little —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Biplane.
DK: Monoplane. Yeah.
BM: Monoplane. And we did that at Reading.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Woodley.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At Reading. And it was just about deciding whether you were fit to be able to fly an aeroplane or whether you’d got the confidence to, to do it.
DK: So were there sort of aptitude tests?
BM: That's what it was.
DK: It was. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And we had to be able to, I think the basic test was you had to do your solo in the maximum of twelve hours.
DK: Right.
BM: I think that was what happened. Well fortunately I think what was I? Eight and a quarter or something like that. I had a little bit of an aptitude for it but I always remember my instructor. I thought at the time, well he was a very brave man. How old was I? Eighteen. Sending me off in this plane on my own up there and I always remember thinking, ‘My God, I've got this bloody thing up here. How am I going to get it down again? [laughs] And —
DK: Were they, were they very good, the instructors?
BM: Well —
DK: What were, what were the instructors like?
BM: I think they had to have a lot of faith.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So can you, can you remember how many flights you had with the instructor before you went solo?
BM: Well yes, I did about seven and a half, seven [pause] I haven't unfortunately I think it was about seven and a half I think.
DK: Seven and a half hours was that?
BM: Hours.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Dual flying.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Before they said, ‘Right.’
DK: ‘Off you go.’
BM: ‘Off you go.’
DK: So what was your feelings then when you went off by yourself for the first time?
BM: Well, I thought what a damn fool I am [laughs] going up with this aeroplane on my own up there. Nobody to help me. No radio. Nothing like that. I couldn't shout, ‘Help.’ You know, ‘What do I do now?’ And I thought I’ll just try and remember what he told me. All the different checks you go through.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Had I got them all right? And I came and landed. It must have been reasonably alright because he said, ‘Off you go again’ so off I went and did another circuit and bump and came around and he said, ‘Ok.’ And that was that. Still did a little bit of flying. Only a time or two after that before we got moved on.
DK: Right. So you got moved on from Reading then.
BM: We got moved on from Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And our, our first EFTS —
DK: Yeah.
BM: I'm not going to try and confuse you with letters.
DK: That's ok.
BM: Elementary Flying Training School.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Which was in Newquay.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Reading and then Newquay.
BM: I went to Reading.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then Newquay. And it was an Elementary Flying Training School but we never did any flying. It was all, you know pounding the streets of Newquay and that.
DK: Square, square bashing.
BM: I did the six months down at Newquay and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And well it was some hard work but I still enjoyed it because the weather was decent. We used to play a lot on the sands and that sort of thing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We enjoyed that. And then we went from EFTS. I’ve missed some out. My memory is I can’t remember what my own name was.
DK: Don't worry.
BM: I’d moved to Canada then.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d done our ground stuff. I think actually they got a little bit fed up of me because we got moved up to Heaton Park near Manchester.
DK: Right.
BM: It was sort of a transit camp. You go there before you get sent here, there and everywhere and I used to break out of the camp at night and I’d come out on the train and that sort of thing. I remember no one occasion I went back after a weekend at home which I shouldn’t have been because I had no passes and I jumped straight into the arms of the military police. I went through the wall in the, in the park at Heaton Park. A lot of lads had found that out. We jumped through this hole and there were four or five of blooming military police stood on the other side.
DK: Did you, did you get into trouble over that then?
BM: Well, ‘Report to the adjutant 8 o’clock tomorrow morning.’. So I got a week confined to camp for that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, what they used to make us do you put a heavy pack on your back and you had to run around the blooming park. The perimeter of the park.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which wasn't funny. And then probably have to go back to the orderly room and polish the floors and all that. Well, I went, I saw some leave passes on this adjutant’s table while I was there. I thought, oh, you know he might not miss a few of those. So, I put some of these leave passes in my pocket and while I was there I got, he’d got the old stamp. You know, they used to stamp them. That's fine. And I got a mate of mine he could sign them for me.
DK: Yeah.
BM: His name was Squadron Leader Fred Bowls or whatever his name was [laughs] and it was all very nice but unfortunately one of these weekends I went home using this pass [there was nothing to do] we were a few weeks at Manchester. It was a bank holiday weekend. Well, that was the worst thing I could do because all military traffic, leisure traffic was stopped for the weekend. The civilians were all very much in need of all this traffic and I went home on this weekend and of course again the military police, ‘Where's your leave pass? What are you doing?’ Well, I’d got a nice little leave pass there which I showed them it. ‘There you are corporal.’ ‘Very good. Carry on.’ I said my grandmother wasn't very well so I had to go home and see her before she died.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: I had to. There were a lot of poorly grandmothers around in those days and it was a bad weekend to go. And as I’ say there were other weekends. The last weekend I got the opportunity was when I went and jumped through the wall in to the loving arms of the military police. Anyway, shortly after that we got posted and we went off to Canada.
DK: Do you remember much about the trip over to Canada? Were you on a, can you remember which ship you were on?
BM: Well, I don't remember. But I do, what I do remember it was, it was amazing really we had two battleships.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had four cruisers, and we had ten destroyers and that was going the other way. And it took us three weeks to get to St Johns, Newfoundland.
DK: Right.
BM: From Glasgow we went actually and we went right across Canada. Saskatchewan, Manitoba and all the rest of it. Lovely people the Canadians.
DK: What did, what did you think about Canada when you got there?
BM: Oh, it was fantastic. Absolutely fantastic because you see you must remember that this was 1941, the beginning of 1942 when we got [pause] and everything was rationed of course.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we didn’t have white bread. It was all this stingy old brownish bread and everything like potatoes and milk. Poor old milk were about ninety percent water. I know there is a lot of water in it anyway but most of it was water and it was miserable old stuff. We got across to Canada full cream milk, the food was fantastic. Lovely white soft bread. We thought we were in heaven. And every station that we stopped at and it took us a long time as we were going across Canada there was always a group of lovely ladies came out on the platforms to welcome us and give us fruit and I mean, we hadn’t seen an orange or a banana or anything like that for, for years. And all of them made these wonderful offerings and eventually we ended up at a little place beside the Alaska highway in [pause] north of Calgary. Alberta.
DK: Alberta. Yeah.
BM: And about a hundred miles north of Calgary and it was a real old-fashioned place. There was no roadways or anything like that but it suited us and what we liked about that place which we hadn’t experience in England everything was laid out in, you know in lateral squares.
DK: Yeah. Yeah
BM: So you had a job to get lost.
DK: Right.
BM: Really, I mean it was —
DK: The grid system.
BM: We had a wonderful navigator. Unless, of course and we did have it happen one young fella he was going north when he should have been going south and [laughs] of course he ended up, if he’d kept on going he would have been at the North Pole but of course he ran out of fuel very easily. Then he had to walk back to get back but that was all part and parcel of the experience —
DK: So what —
BM: Of learning.
DK: What sort of training did you then have in Canada?
BM: Well, we went onto Stearmans in Canada.
DK: Right.
BM: That was our first one. This little place called Bowden, and a very very very very safe stable aircraft. I don't know whether you’ve ever seen the, sort of realised the make of aeroplane that there were but these Stearmans were like a big Tiger Moth.
DK: They were biplanes. Yeah.
BM: Biplanes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Very stable. Very very safe. And you could, you could drop them in from a fair old height and, you know they would just bounce. Well most aeroplanes would, you’d buckle the undercarriage up. That was the biggest problem you know with would be pilots was the judgement in landing an aircraft.
DK: Right.
BM: I mean anybody can take an aeroplane off. You’d open the throttle and keep it straight and off you go. It’s a different kettle of fish when it comes down to judging that height.
DK: Right.
BM: Just get it down and drop it in nicely. And there were more people I think got failed for that particular fault.
DK: Not being able to land.
BM: Couldn’t judge the distance.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: To drop it in. And —
DK: So –
BM: Failed because of that.
DK: At this time are you flying solo again or have you got —
BM: Oh, we, oh yes we got so we were flying solo. And I did quite a lot of hours. There was a statutory number of hours.
DK: Right.
BM: Whether you were good, bad or indifferent you had that to do. And when you reached a certain standard than the whole lot of you, fifty bods usually in a, in a flight would get moved on to the next stage and we went on to the SFTS then.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. And —
DK: SFTS. Yeah.
BM: You did [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
BM: And at that point we went on to Harvards.
DK: Right.
BM: So we were still training to be fighter pilots. We were still on singles. Now, the Harvards were a wonderful aircraft and we then did a full course on the Harvards. Funnily enough it just made me remember we went to Zimbabwe for a holiday several years ago with a cousin and we were going around Zimbabwe and we went into a museum in Bulawayo.
DK: Right.
BM: One day. A little museum with a few aeroplanes in it and there was a beautiful Harvard in there.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They’d had, they had this Empire Training Scheme.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was really —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Out in South Africa. Rhodesia as it was then. It wasn’t Zimbabwe and they did the same course. A lot of the lads went out from this country out to South Africa did the course there and then moved up to the Middle East.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It was much easier for them to get posted in to some sort of military unit in the Middle East. Either in the Western Desert or —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Wherever they went. And it just reminded me that Harvards were, were in South Africa just as much, well not as much they were so very busy with training aircraft in Canada. They did a wonderful job and the Canadians are forever in my heart and I have always wanted to go back full for a holiday.
DK: Right.
BM: To take my wife back after the war. We never got there. Anyway, we came back when all this was over. Well, I’m jumping a bit before we got there. When we’d done the training on the Harvards a group of us got moved from there to Navigation School.
DK: Right.
BM: On Prince Edward Island. PEI as they used to call it. And it had got a job to [pause] it was alcohol free. You know, it was like the old what's the name that they had in New York, didn't they? The —
DK: Oh, the prohibition mission. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they had the same thing on Prince Edward Island. The only way we could get any decent drink and that was invariably it was rum, good thick rum. And we didn’t cope with it [phone ringing] and we could buy this in the mess.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we had to get a licence to buy any alcohol off service premises.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, because there were like alcohol stores where you could buy stuff on licence.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But you wouldn’t just go in and, ‘I’ll have a pint of beer missus,’ or whatever you know. You, you had to buy it on licence. But we got all we needed anyway.
DK: Yeah.
BM: So we did this course and then we came back when it was over down through the eastern side of America. I forget the name of the States now down north of New York. Then came back to New York and we came home from New York.
DK: Right.
BM: Actually.
DK: Did you actually stop off at New York. Or not —
BM: We got on at New York.
DK: You got on at New York. Yeah.
BM: Yeah, because we came down by train.
DK: Right.
BM: From Prince Edward Island. From Philadelphia, was it was one of them.
DK: Right.
BM: New England.
DK: Right.
BM: It doesn't matter. Anyway. And we got on at New York and came back from there to Liverpool in seven days.
DK: Right.
BM: It took us three weeks to go out.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The same journey. Well, it wasn’t the same journey really because we were just over. We still lost one by the way. We still lost a troop ship going out. With all these ships looking after us we found more escorts than we had people to go, bods on them because we were going the other way.
DK: Right.
BM: And of course, at that point then the Americans were in the war. They joined up pretty well straight away in 1941. Well, December ‘41 is when they came in didn’t they?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: So it would be ’42. And we got the Empire, Empire Air Training Scheme going and we were going the other way. Anyway, we came back and it took us a week and it was said, now we’ve no way of knowing whether it’s true or not there were twenty thousand troops on that boat.
DK: Wow.
BM: On the Princess Elizabeth. And it was the first time, not the first time that we came in but it was, it was used for civilian traffic before it was actually launched as a passenger vessel.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because it was launched at the beginning of the war, wasn't it? The Queen Elizabeth.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And interesting really. We slept in the swimming pool. There was no water in it. We got these palliases and it was plenty warm enough even in winter. And —
DK: So was the convoy attacked at all on the, on the way back?
BM: Do you know it didn't have one escort.
DK: No.
BM: Not that we saw anyway. If it did it kept out of sight.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d no escort whatever with the Queen Elizabeth and it was, it was forever never, never took a straight course. But it was said and of course everything we got was all rumour. We didn't know whether it was true or not that it was doing about thirty knots all the time and it was too fast for a U-boat.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You know, there was no way they were going to catch it unless, you could get four or five of them like a pack. And it was maybe difficult to get away then but whether it actually got attacked I don't know but it certainly did fire its guns. It might have been in practise I don't know. It had got some massive, massive guns on as big as a warship.
DK: Right.
BM: And also they’d got dozens, literally dozens of anti-aircraft guns. I mean the Elizabeth was a big ship.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: There was a lot of space there to look after and they did a wonderful job. They got us back but of course we went back to a bit of nice English food having had all this wonderful food all the time we were out in —
DK: You had a bit of a shock then, was it? Coming back to this.
BM: Oh yeah. Coming back to this. So then we did [pause] from there we went, moved on to training on Oxfords.
DK: Right.
BM: Twin engine planes.
DK: Can you remember where you were based then? Flying the Oxfords?
BM: Well, you know my first place really was South Cerney in Gloucestershire.
DK: Right.
BM: There was South Cerney and there was Bibury. We did different sort of out-stations like we, one was at Lulsgate Bottom. I remember that one because it, it actually became Bristol Airport.
DK: Right. Yes. Yes.
BM: Eventually.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lulsgate Bottom. And it was, it was a bit tight because the A5 ran right alongside. You know the way Scampton does? You’ve got the A15 pretty well right —
DK: Yeah.
BM: At the end of the runway. You’ve got the A5 there at Bristol and I remember on one occasion I was awaiting my turn to take off because invariably you flew on your own even in a twin engine aircraft and he came in to land and just touched the top of a furniture waggon and the furniture waggon went past on the A5 road and the runway was just over the hedge and he just, he just touched it. But he, and I was stood there waiting and he carried on and landed OK but I should think the driver of the vehicle had a —
DK: A bit of a shock.
BM: An enlightening experience.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Has he mentioned about the Americans when he was in Canada? Flew in to —
BM: No.
DK: No. No.
SM: There was a flight of Americans came in. They all crashed didn’t they? Couldn't land.
BM: Oh, well this was in Canada.
DK: Canada. Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: With the frost.
BM: Oh, we had a few experiences. We were, at that period we were going through part of the winter.
DK: Right.
BM: Well, Canadian winters were rather strong —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And one weekend, over one weekend while we were there we actually had eighty degrees of frost. It was [pause] I've got to get this right. Fifty degrees below zero was eighty two degrees of frost.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: It was cold.
DK: Right.
BM: It was. And bearing in mind we were flying Stearmans which were open cockpit.
DK: Oh yeah.
BM: And we used to have a, some chamois leather face masks with three pairs of gloves. Silk gloves, woollen gloves, leather gloves. All of it and you are only allowed to fly for twenty minutes.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. Because of frostbite. You could easily get frostbite.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You were wrapped up like a Chinese monkey and when your time was up you had to come back and land. Get out. Otherwise you would just freeze up.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s sensible I suppose really. And of course, everything was frozen up. You didn't know where the runways were. It was just solid snow and that. On one occasion, this wasn't of course public knowledge but the Americans were supplying the Russians with aircraft and, because we had a photograph of a Flying Fortress with a Russian Star on it. We had, we had 5 Airacobras. Do you know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Yeah. They —
DK: Single engine fighters.
BM: One of the early [ tricycle ] undercarriage planes.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And five came in one after the other. Coming in for re-fuelling on the way up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Up to Alaska.
DK: And to Russia that way presumably.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were right on the Alaska Highway. The side of the Alaska highway and it would take them up to [pause] I forget the names of the places now. Anyway, they’d go up to Alaska and then over the —
SM: Bering Straits.
BM: Bering Straits.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And come down in to America that way. They didn't have to fly them across long stretches of water. Long stretches of snow instead. But these five Airacobras they came in and they couldn't pull up because it was on a shortish runway with a fair amount of wind and the brakes wouldn't, they wouldn’t, I don't know, they just, I mean we could see them doing it. You slid right down the blooming runway such as there was and, on this occasion, came down, landed and there was the old Alaska Highway such as it was but it had all snowed up. But we did have a hedge. The first one went straight through the hedge and the other four followed him just boom boom boom. So we had, we ended up with five Airacobras in somebody's field.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: But they didn't do an awful lot of damage.
DK: No?
BM: Really. They did some damage obviously.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But didn’t do such a lot of damage.
DK: Nobody, nobody hurt then.
BM: They weren't very popular. But I mean, you couldn't blame the pilots. They’d absolutely no chance and I mean once the wheels were on the ground that was it. They just kept on sliding.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They’d no grip. But just another [laughs] funny incident. Not quite on the same day but we, we had one or two lads up doing navigation exercises in Ansons. Well, they weren’t flying them. They were there navigating them. Learning how to navigate. And this, as I say this little runway they couldn’t get the aircraft down. It wasn’t a case of getting it down and making it stop down. They couldn’t get it down.
DK: No.
BM: Because an Anson just used to float on the wind you know. Like a butterfly when it was coming in and you’d get down just a few feet off the ground and you couldn’t get it to come down and stop down. You cut the engine off about somewhere at Dunham Bridge and you could [laughs] you’d come drifting in and in and in. And it went around and around. I’d seem one of them. I don't know how many times it went around but it went around a few times before it did eventually get down. And I think he was actually landing at Lincoln and then coming in [laughs] It was, it was a funny incident really watching them. But anyway we were on about these Airacobras. That was quite interesting. They’d all got the Russian Star on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I think if the English public had known that they’d got the Russian Star there really it would, it would be after. It would be after Russia actually came in officially.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: In to the war but not all that long afterwards.
DK: 1942 wouldn’t it when the Americans supplied.
BM: It wasn’t that that long after.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because they’d actually got to get all the aeroplane [pause] well they weren’t converted. You had them all prepared.
DK: Yeah.
BM: With the proper markings on and all that sort of thing. All these Russian aircraft and the, but they weren't, we didn't see any that I can remember Russian transport. Land transport, you know. Big heavy armoured vehicles and all that sort.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But we did get the aeroplanes. But anyway to come back to where I was we were watching these aircraft do aerobatics at the end of the A5 at Lulsgate Bottom.
SM: Before you say that dad have you mentioned you lost your leave as well didn’t you in Canada? Which wasn't your fault.
BM: Lost me what?
SM: Leave. When someone had been smoking. Can you remember? You had to stay in camp and everybody went in to America.
BM: Lost my leave.
SM: Yeah.
BM: We don't talk about such things as that, Simon.
SM: Yeah. That wasn't your fault, was it. Can you remember?
BM: There was all sorts of things were my fault. I was forever getting myself locked up.
SM: It doesn't matter if you’ve forgotten.
BM: I have. I have.
SM: But he did. He lost his leave.
DK: Lost his leave.
SM: Somebody had been smoking and everyone [pause] they didn’t own up.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And —
DK: You got the blame for it.
SM: Dad got the blame for it and they all went on to, into America on their leave and dad had to stay on.
DK: Oh dear.
SM: On the camp.
BM: Anyway, I did this. This training.
DK: Yeah.
BM: At two or three different small aerodromes you know that —
DK: Yeah.
BM: That were where the main aerodrome had sort of landing grounds and there was, Bibury was another one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Near Gloucester that we did a bit of training. Oh, I think we did, that one was blind landing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You had to, without having any visual you had to come in. I don't know whether anybody has ever told you how they do it. Or did it. I mean there are all these modern gizmos today.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I mean, they can do it but in those days you did it with like Morse Code. A series of, you’d got a dit dit dit dit dit on one side. Then on the other side of the landing as you were coming in da da da. And then you had to get them to join up. You were doing this totally blind. You were just seeing the instrument and you could —
DK: You’re hearing the noise in your ears.
BM: Yeah, we were hearing it.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And it had got a constant sound so you got the dit dit dit and the da da da. You could [daaaaa] and when it all —
DK: Came together.
BM: Came together then you knew you were actually on the line. It was very simple but it, it worked, you know. You’d get people down. It didn't tell them how high they were but at least it got them in. Got them down. I mean later in the war they got all sorts of gizmos they were using for landing. There was one system called BABS. It used to amuse us because my wife's name was Babs and they’d got this —
SM: Still is dad.
BM: They’d got this landing. Anyway, we did all this series of different training. When it was all completed then of course you got together. You got navigators, bomb aimers.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Pilots and all the rest of it and you went too [pause]
DK: The OTU.
BM: You've got it, you know. Yeah. And we were sent as a group up to —
DK: Can you remember meeting up with your crew and how that happened?
BM: Well, it was at, that was the way it was done. They would put in a big room I suppose the numbers, equal numbers that they required so many bomb aimers, so many wireless operators, this that and the other all and you just sorted yourself out. I mean if you saw somebody looking a bit like a lost sheep and you’d know what, what job he had whether he was an observer or an air gunner you’d got a —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And then say, ‘Ah, we want, we want an air gunner in our crew.’ Or, ‘We want a navigator.’ Or whatever. But even sort of —
DK: Did you think that was a good idea of getting your crew together because it seems a bit random?
BM: It was very much random but [pause] how else would you do it? I mean you wanted so many bomb aimers. You wanted equal numbers bomb aimers, navigators, pilots. You wanted more air gunners.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Because most aircraft had got at least two —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Lots of air gunners on.
DK: You've got, you’ve got no idea how good they are at their —
BM: No.
DK: Jobs though, have you?
BM: They might have been bloody useless. And in fact, some were.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I suppose that did happen but once you’d got them you’d got them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They formed part of your crew and —
DK: Can you remember which OTU you were at?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or where it was?
BM: Number 6.
DK: Number 6.
BM: Silloth.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Carlisle.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And you see Coastal Command flying Wellingtons I never told you that had I? Anyway, you didn’t have a lot of choice it was a, we were Wellingtons —
DK: So you were, you were literally posted to a Coastal Command OTU.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. It wasn’t until that point we’d got away from being trained as [pause] Oh yes it was. Of course, it was because we had to do a conversion course as pilots from singles.
DK: Right.
BM: On to multis, you know. And we did that —
DK: So was this —
BM: Through Oxfords and —
DK: Was it a bit of a shock then that you weren't going to be the fighter pilot? You were going to be put on bombers?
BM: Well, I mean everybody —
DK: Or larger aircraft.
BM: Everybody realised that basically the fighter’s war was over. I mean a lot of the lads were lost. By that stage of the war they were then getting they were wanting bombers.
DK: Right.
BM: Fighter bombers. They did want fighter aircraft but more or less working in safety situations.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Really, you know guarding other bombers and being —
DK: Not being, not being offensive then.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. Not —
DK: So you met your crew then. What did you think of them personally? Did you, were they a good crew?
BM: You know there’s a more reliable statistic.
DK: You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to [laughs] I can soon turn the recorder off.
BM: I think that’s the easiest way.
DK: If you want to something [laughs] Ok. Fair enough.
BM: Yeah. You get, you get a mixed bunch really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: You’re bound to do and there weren’t many crews and I did know one that, there was one crew which they, all of them seemed to be smashing fellas.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, they really were and they all appeared to know their job. But they were very decent fellas. But you see you got such a mixed bag. I mean, we had an Australian navigator for instance. We had a, a second pilot who was a Cockney. A Londoner. Another one who was a Cockney who was a wireless op/air gunner. We had a radio, w/op from Belfast. They were from all over the blooming place you know. They were such a mixed bag. Well, you usually used to find that people coming from similar areas you know would gel —
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: A lot better. You know, like two or three northerners for instance.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But again they would stick together. Which may not have been a good thing in some things. It didn’t help mix everybody up but they were. Anyway, we did that. I had one little incident where we was a little bit alarming in the course of doing this. Way out in the Atlantic there’s a little rock. Nothing else. It’s an island made of rock and seagulls and it’s called Rockall.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: You’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: It was quite a long way out in the Atlantic and it was used as a navigation training exercise.
DK: Right.
BM: You had to, a good training point for the navigator because he was the one who was responsible for it. Make sure you got to the right point and you, and you had to photograph it because we all carried a big —
DK: Prove you’d been there.
BM: So to prove that we’d actually been there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Some would say, ‘Well, yes, we got there boss.’ Alright. No, you had to prove that you’d actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we got a little bit under fuel, the shortish side and we came back and we knew we weren’t going to get back home so everybody, well the navigator sketching out as fast as he could the nearest convenient place that we could get down on and we got down. We came in to land off the coast of Scotland. A little place called Port Ellen. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it but —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: All they’d got there was a few sheep. Didn’t even keep any aircraft there. It was an emergency place for anybody who was in trouble for any reason and then there was a hut in there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: We, we put in there for the night. We got refuelled. Had a night there listening to the flaming sheep bleating all night [laughs] And then we filled up and went off again the next morning. But it, it can be a bit hairy being out in the sea there.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It would be a bit wet if you —
DK: Finding out you were running low on fuel.
BM: If you didn't make it. You get back. You quite a long way to come at that point down the West Coast of Scotland around the sort of northern tip of Ireland.
DK: Right.
BM: And then came in and up to Solway Firth.
DK: Yeah. So was, was it at the OTU then you first flew the Wellington?
BM: Oh yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: You wouldn’t get any opportunity to fly it before then.
DK: No. So that was —
BM: That was the first time you ever flew as a, as a crew.
DK: As a crew. So how did you feel about the Wellington then because it was quite a bigger aircraft than you'd been used to up until then?
BM: Oh, yeah. Well, they were actually discarded ones from the, that had been on bombing.
DK: Right.
BM: So you could imagine that they —
DK: So they were a bit rough.
BM: They were a bit rough alright. One particular occasion we were doing a training exercise and we came in and landed and we’d no brakes at all. We couldn't. There were no way we were going to pull up before we’d go through somebody's chimney and we came down towards the end of the runway and all you could do was accelerate a lot.
DK: Right.
BM: On one side. I think it was on the portside and swing it around. Nothing to hold it back on the other side, you know. You was —
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then eventually you’d run out of steam but if anybody got in your way it was really awkward but they were such a clapped out blooming aircraft. They really were but they weren't as bad as we had on in many respects as we got on Ferry Command. There were some dodgy ones.
DK: So from the OTU then were you then posted to an operational squadron?
BM: No.
DK: Right.
BM: We did the, we did the OTU and then we got, we got sent back. We got sent to Haverfordwest.
DK: Right. OK.
BM: So that was one end of the country to the other nearly and we got down to Haverford West and it's a long way down there you know to Haverfordwest in those days because you had to come to London.
DK: Oh right.
BM: Out of London and then oh —
DK: Then back out again.
BM: Blooming heck. Anyway, we got down to, and we were just getting off the train down at Haverfordwest Station. A little old station down there and there were some MPs out on the platform. ‘What's gone wrong now?’ And they were giving us out forty eight hour leave pass and a warrant for the train.
DK: Right.
BM: They said, ‘Well, you've got forty eight hours leave.’ And we’d just come all that blooming way from God knows where. So I had to get back on the train, back to London, back up, well to Newark as far as I was concerned. Two lads were able to get off at London because they came from London.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But, and another lad, I’m moving on a little bit but we came back. Got back to Newark and I actually walked home to my wife. She wasn't my wife then. My fiancé. Just down the street here. I walked home from Newark station.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Quite a fair old walk. Got in at 8:00 o'clock in the morning. I walked in and said, ‘If you want to get married we're going to get married tomorrow.’ And that’s the first —
SM: He did. Yeah.
BM: It was the first she ever knew about it. We never discussed it but —
DK: That’s the way to do it.
BM: And I was —
SM: Yeah, but you knew you were going to be posted dad, didn’t you? You knew you were going to be posted away at that stage.
BM: Oh, aye. I know. Anyway, we fixed this up we were, we were going to get married. Well, a lot of pandemonium and all the rest of it. We had at that stage my wife’s house. In those days it happened quite a bit where you got service people were billeted —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: On somebody who had substantial accommodation. My wife was a farmer's daughter so they considered that they had enough square space to accommodate a couple of senior officers and they had a Wing Commander —
DK: Right.
BM: Who was the CO of the engineering outfit. Engineering officer at 5 Group.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: On Lancasters. And he was billeted up there. I used to get along with him like a house on fire. I didn't call him Bill and Fred and all the rest of it but, and this he treated me you know with respect and of course I did him. I mean a senior officer. And he said, my wife and the family were obviously going down to Nottingham to do some shopping. He said, ‘I'll take you to Newark.’ I mean, I had a wing commander, you know, I said, ‘Oh, my God.’ And he took them all off to catch the train at Newark Station. All the way there apparently because I wasn’t there, all the way there he was trying to persuade her all the time, ‘Now, are you sure you want to get married? You’re a bit young,’ and all this, that and the other, you know. She said, ‘Yes, we’re getting married.’ She wasn't twenty one of course, I wasn't either and anyway off they went to Nottingham and they came back and it was arranged that we would meet the officer and train and he got back to the train. And then of course in the meantime I think it was realised we didn't have a licence to get married and they’d got forty eight hours. So, and Saturday was already on its way. They kept the train waiting on Collingham Station while they went and hunted out my mother and my wife's mother to get their written permissions —
DK: Right.
BM: On the, on the licence application to be able to get married. So I went to, all the passengers on the train were enjoying this bit of drama. So I did that and then we carried on on the train. I went up to Newark. To Lincoln trying to, of course this was late in the day. This was teatime to get the rest of the particulars and we had to get a licence. Seven and sixpence and of course it was sod’s law it was Saturday and these sort of bods don’t work on Saturdays. But we went and hunted them up my sister and me and we got this blooming chap. Registrar of births, deaths and marriages. He was very good actually. We got him fairly late on in the evening and I said, ‘Well, I’m going abroad in a couple of days.’ I mean, this was happening all the time obviously.
DK: I was going to say I imagine it so—
BM: And he was, he was —
DK: It was quite common.
BM: So he fixed us up with a licence. Seven and six pence and that was, that was that. We got married the next day on the Sunday.
DK: Right.
BM: We’d got the vicar primed. There were no banns. Nothing like that. And my wife did a wedding breakfast. Wonderful for her. There were sixty people there present. All these had been notified in the previous twenty four hours.
DK: Yeah.
BM: My own father didn’t know, you know. I thought we’d better ring him up and tell him his son is going to get married. Anyway, we got married and had a sort of wedding breakfast and then off we went to Nottingham for a honeymoon and we came back on the Tuesday morning and we were back to London and back to Haverfordwest and that was our wedding. And two and a half years later I saw my wife.
DK: Right. So you did know you were about to be posted overseas then at this point did you?
BM: We did but we didn’t know —
DK: Where?
BM: Until actually we were on the train on the station.
DK: Right.
BM: At Haverfordwest.
DK: Right.
BM: We didn’t know.
DK: And that’s why you got the forty eight hours leave then.
BM: Yeah, we had the forty eight hour leave pass.
DK: [unclear] leave. Right.
BM: They didn’t give you much did they?
DK: No.
BM: Forty eight hours and —
DK: You had, you had no idea where you were going. Just that you were going overseas.
BM: Just that we were going.
DK: Right.
BM: That was it. And of course, a certain number of days and you were back. So —
DK: Can I just ask what rank were you at this time because you mentioned you —
BM: Oh, I was an air marshal or something like that, I think. I was a Sergeant.
DK: So you were a flight Sergeant then at that time.
BM: He’s there look.
DK: Ah. Oh right.
BM: That’s me. Good looking fellow wasn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, the woman was a good looking girl.
DK: Good looking lady.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you were a flight Sergeant at that point then.
BM: Well —
DK: Sergeant. Yeah.
BM: I suppose so. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. So you’d gone back to Haverfordwest so you're now going overseas. So where did you —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Where did you go then?
BM: But we didn't know where.
DK: Yeah.
BM: They didn't give you a lot of information out and they said, ‘Well, you will be taking a new aircraft to Morocco.’
DK: Oh right.
BM: Rabat in Morocco. So we had to fly —
DK: And this was a Wellington was it?
BM: That was a Wellington. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Brand new. And of course what happens next? We were waiting for this and somebody went and smashed it up. They were doing an air test on it and smashed it up so they held us back. Not very long. Three or four days or something like that they kept us back. Until another one became available.
DK: Right.
BM: We got that. Took it down to Southampton and gave us all the instructions to get it to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: Which was a circuitous route to say the least because we had to go out to, we had to try and avoid France.
DK: France. Yeah. Spain.
BM: Spain. Portugal. All the, because we hadn't any ammunition.
DK: Right.
BM: They sent us out with his blooming brand new Wellington. We got all the guns we needed on it.
DK: [unclear]
BM: But there were no ammunition. We’d no ammunition because we had to load the thing up with as much fuel as you could get.
DK: Right.
BM: You know, you needed all that. You couldn't be wasting space on bullets.
DK: Right.
BM: And but allowing though if you happened to see a few Focke Wulfs come on you, on your tail but anyway we flew through the night and it would be —
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco then or —
BM: Did we —?
DK: Did you go direct to Morocco or stop on the way?
BM: No. We flew, oh sorry we flew direct from Southampton. We went out over the Channel Islands.
DK: Right.
BM: And we were alright being fairly closer in to France but we never went over any, any land.
DK: You didn't stop at Gibraltar or anywhere.
BM: No. No.
DK: You went all the way to Morocco.
BM: No. We didn't. We very nearly did but it was accidental. We came in towards, we thought, the navigator thought we’d got to Gibraltar and we did and then we suddenly realised Jesus better get out of this or else. They were a bit handy with the, with the loose cannon you know if they didn't have proper warning.
DK: Oh right. You weren't expected.
BM: Turn around quick.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And head out to sea to get a few miles behind us and then we went down, turned to port again and went further down across Northern Africa.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Morocco to Rabat.
DK: Right.
BM: From, that’s where we parked the plane and —
DK: So were you officially with the squadron now?
BM: No.
DK: Oh right.
BM: No. We were in transit.
DK: Ok.
SM: You had an incident didn’t you when you landed?
BM: We were, well actually it was rather interesting. We knew we were, we were getting dangerously short. We were living, or were flying on fumes pretty well.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Jesus. Keep paddling on and we got, we actually came in to land and we looked down and we ran out of fuel. It was cutting it a bit fine but the coincidental part of this was that a corporal came out in a little fifteen hundred weight truck to the end of the runway. We couldn’t get any further unless somebody was going to push us and he said, ‘What’s the problem?’ We’d no fuel and I looked at him and bloody hell. I went to school with him.
DK: Yeah?
BM: Yeah.
DK: The corporal who had just pulled up?
BM: I went past his, he was a farmer’s son.
DK: How strange.
BM: I went past it yesterday funnily enough. At Leverton. And he was, he was there, he wasn’t there but I don’t know whether their still, the family are still there now up to this day or, I don’t know.
DK: Did you both immediately recognise one another then?
BM: Oh aye. He recognised me and I recognised him because you’ve got to bear in mind that.
DK: Strange.
BM: This was in 1942.
DK: Right.
BM: Would it be? No. It was ’43. The end of ’43. We’d have not been from school long either him or me, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: It weren’t, we weren’t talking sort of years back so we hadn’t got to remember far back and he was, he was at school with us and there he was.
DK: How strange.
BM: Shepherding aircraft at this, on this blooming runway at Rabat. Anyway, we parked the plane up there and then we got instructions to move on via American transport plane I think.
DK: Right.
BM: We went sort of down the coast of Morocco and Algeria. We went to, stopped at an American aerodrome at Algeria and it was all sort of in transit.
DK: Right.
BM: And from there we moved around again and we moved across to Italy. To the heel of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: Near Taranto. What were we talking about?
DK: Right.
BM: Yeah. No, it’s Taranto isn’t it? Right down in the coast. Grottaglie they called it.
DK: So, what were your thoughts about North Africa then when you got there and —?
BM: North Africa?
DK: Yeah. What was it, what was it like?
BM: A bit dry [laughs] but we didn’t really see a lot of it. I mean and unfortunately of course in those days we didn’t have much money to go out and buy cameras.
DK: Right.
BM: If we could have got cameras we couldn’t, we couldn’t buy film.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You couldn’t get the blooming stuff. I’ve got very few aircraft, very few photographs taken really of wartime and that sort of thing. But anyway we got across to Grottaglie.
DK: So the Americans were flying you across then.
BM: The Americans actually you see they landed on the west coast of Africa.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And they attacked it from —
DK: Operation Torch.
BM: The west and we were coming up from —
DK: Yeah.
BM: The Tobruk area. And [pause] Montgomery’s lot were meeting with the American.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What was his name? General, was it Mark Clark?
DK: [unclear] Yeah.
BM: Anyway, they went coming from, we were behind the Americans at that stage. They were moving into Africa and we only had to have a couple of spots in our squadrons and there was really no need to have done that if they could have found an aircraft with sufficient bods on it to fill it up to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, to take it to —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Exactly where you wanted to be.
DK: So having arrived in Italy then, the heel of Italy are you, had you been allocated to a squadron at this point then?
BM: Yeah. We were on, we were on route right from our transport instructions. Our transport officer right from where we landed in Rabat.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: But then sort of under the control of a transport, you know a designated transport officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And he would just move us on from place to place and we were on 221 Squadron.
DK: Right. And 221, they were, they were flying Wellingtons again I assume.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And they were part of Coastal Command.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Or Middle East Air Force.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Coastal Command.
BM: I mean I've never actually been on any other aircraft until I got to Ferry Command.
DK: Right.
BM: It was always, my operations were always on Wellingtons. I did a tour of operations except one.
DK: Right.
BM: I was one short of completing.
DK: Right. So, and these were all from Italy then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: All these operations. So how many operations did you actually do?
BM: I should have done thirty and I did twenty nine.
DK: Right. Ok. So for Coastal Command then what what sort of form did those operations take?
BM: What?
DK: What were you actually doing on those operations for Coastal Command? What was your role as it were?
BM: Well, I suppose to a large extent it was reconnaissance.
DK: Ok.
BM: Shipping and troop movements and that sort of thing. But we always, we carried bombs and guns and pretty well every time we came back we’d line somebody up with a few bombs. But across and Greece —
DK: Right.
BM: Yugoslavia. Albania.
DK: So most of, most of your operations then they were actually were over land.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Rather than over the sea.
BM: Oh Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right.
BM: There were very little operations actually constantly over water. We were over water but I mean we were, we were attacking, if we knew they were there E-boats and that sort of thing and light armoured boats. We never encountered any heavy stuff.
DK: Right.
BM: And our biggest commercial boats would be about what? Six or seven thousand tonnes?
DK: Right.
BM: They weren’t massive big things you know because they were on basically on, on transport. On coastal transport you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Port to port and that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Right around back by Trieste and Venice and back down the Italian coast but on, on one occasion we went across to Greece. We pretty well got through our designated number of trips to different places. Some of them were interesting, some of them were a bit sharpish but we never flew very high.
DK: No.
BM: We never did any of this twenty, twenty five thousand and stuff for it. If you knocked off the five it would be nearer. We [laughs] we had about —
DK: So what sort of heights were you?
BM: Five. On average about five thousand feet.
DK: Oh right.
BM: So we’d get a good view of what was going off down below. You know when you think about it we did a fair bit of chasing e-boats and that sort of thing. How do you tell a difference between an e-boat and an MTB for instance?
DK: At that, at that height.
BM: When it’s dark.
DK: Yeah. At that height or dark, it would be difficult.
BM: I thought at the time well I’m damned sure that wasn’t a blooming German. I reckon he was a Navy man that we just dropped some stuff on but it happened because we couldn’t tell one from another. If they didn't, if they didn't put up a rocket —
DK: Right.
BM: Or anything to warn us that you know that —
DK: You dropped a bomb.
BM: It’s a wrong place to do it or whatever.
DK: So you didn't have necessarily specific targets you just flew out.
BM: Yeah, and —
DK: Saw what was there and —
BM: Dropping them on, we were taking photographs.
DK: Right.
BM: Of what there was and where because obviously the military ones at that moment and used our own discretion.
DK: Really. So that your main role then was really intelligence.
BM: Basically.
DK: Reconnaissance type of thing.
BM: You know intelligence and reconnaissance.
DK: And if you saw something —
BM: Yeah. And if there was something which was obviously —
SM: Bomb it.
BM: Foreign.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know you would, you’d just line them up. We did this on [unclear] I mean [unclear] is a lovely place to go for a holiday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: But not if somebody is dropping some unpleasant stuff on top of you. And it was, it was summertime so short nights and that sort of thing. Getting broad daylight when we left and we came back. You had to bear in mind that nearly every time we went we went on our own.
DK: I was going to ask that. Were you just flying singly?
BM: We didn’t go as part of a group.
DK: Right.
BM: Two at the most.
DK: Right.
BM: You know. There was never big numbers of aircraft involved and we set off from Greece to come home and all of a sudden we were getting [pfft] coming past us [pause] And the rear gunner had said nothing about anybody chasing us or anything like that and we’d got two ME109s coming up behind us giving us a belt up the rear. And they actually shot out the port engine and the fuel. They did the, with doing the engine they did the hydraulics because the flaps, the undercarriage, the guns, everything was driven by that port engine.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: With hydraulics.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if they did that that was goodbye Mary and they shot all this lot up and we ended up without any flaps, without any guns really, and we before we even knew anything was happening to us. You know there were guns, bullets were coming into us before we realised what damage was being done. Anyway, we put one engine out. Had to do. Stopped it so we were lucky the other one didn’t stop as well because the fuel was, you know floating backwards and forwards between one engine and another. But the, we had a, an American Marauder.
DK: Right.
BM: I don’t know whether you’ve ever —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They were one of the early tricycle undercarriages.
BM: Yeah. Twin engine plane.
DK: Fighter bomber.
BM: Yeah.
BM: Twin engine thing. But the Americans apparently didn’t like them because they were stuffed full of guns. They’d guns coming out of them in all directions.
SM: You mean the Germans didn’t like them.
BM: But they were —
SM: Yeah.
BM: Very strongly armed.
SM: Yeah.
BM: And he’d seen this because there had been a number of aircraft had been on this exercise and he’d seen it so he told us afterwards and he came up and the, these two 109s didn’t hang about then. They don’t like Marauders because Marauders have got .5 guns on them.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were all 303s which were like a, like a blooming peashooter. Anyway, the [pause] he came up with us. We’d no radio. Couldn’t talk to each other so he got busy flashing with his aldis lamp.
DK: Yeah.
BM: What the hell was he talking about? It was a job to understand what was, what was going backwards and forwards. Anyway, the gist of it was, ‘Are you ok?’ You know. Well, fortunately we were very fortunate indeed the navigator had just been nicked a bit but other than that nobody else got hurt and ok, so we carried on and eventually we got back to Bari, on the coast of Italy.
DK: Right.
BM: We headed for the nearest one that we could likely to get down at and it happened to be an American occupied station.
DK: Station. Yeah.
BM: And it’s only got a shortish runway on it and we came in to land on one engine, flaps down, undercarriage down. You’re not supposed to fly on, ought to be able to fly on one engine with all the hydraulics down. It won’t do it and it did. And we came around over the harbour nearly taking the masks off some ships which were in the harbour. It was really close to because you can’t do an overshoot with a lot of space. We came around again and came in a little bit slower and I think we were sort of trying to make sure that we got in the first time but we didn’t because we were halfway down the runway we were still airborne on a short runway. We tried to get around again and we got in. We came in to land low, lower and a little bit slower and we came in and damn me we put down and both tyres had been shot out and we didn’t know it. You can’t tell when you’re flying the blooming thing.
DK: No.
BM: If you looked out of the, you know but you weren’t bloody looking out and doing a bit of window gazing but both tyres and damage to the aircraft. Both tyres had been, we were told this when we got down but it was too late then because we’d no radio. You couldn’t, you know they couldn’t talk to us which was unfortunate and strangely enough when we came in the second time there were several blood waggons, ambulances, fire engines and that sort of thing lined up on the side of the runway so they were expecting somebody to have a bit of a bump. And the American, and as we came past where they were parked up on the end we could actually hear them. I could hear these, these blood waggons. You know they started up [whirr] As we were going down the runway they were behind us and of course the aircraft just went [pfft] That was it. The tyres were a bit empty. So it rather, apart from other damage that had been done by the bullets and that sort of thing it smashed it up a little bit.
DK: Did it remain on the undercarriage or did you —
BM: No. It collapsed.
DK: It had collapsed. Right. Ok.
BM: Yeah. You know, with flat tyres —
DK: Yeah.
BM: It does tend to do that.
DK: Yeah. It collapses on to the belly of the aircraft.
BM: Yeah. On to the rims.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And then I think the wheels went so we didn’t stop to hang about and have a look. Anyway, our CO —
DK: So you were all, you were all ok then when you got out.
BM: Oh yeah. Yeah. We got out as fast as we could get out. Get the lid open and get out and let them sort it out.
DK: Was the aircraft on fire at this point? Or —
BM: Well, I expected it to be.
DK: Yeah.
BM: But I realised that it was unlikely because you could smell petrol. It was unlikely to happen.
DK: Still didn’t want to hang around though did you?
BM: Because they were right behind us.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You know, they were going as fast as we were down the runway so, and a number of them as well. They’d got foam. I got hit with the blooming foam, with some foam as I was getting out. I didn’t mind that but couldn’t get out the top. Anyway, our CO he got in touch with the authorities on this aerodrome and he said, ‘I’ll come and fetch you.’ So he came down in his Wellington to pick us up. Oh, I didn’t tell you we’d moved up to Foggia.
DK: Yeah.
BM: From Grottaglie. Only on a sort of a temporary posting. We weren’t there many weeks because it was nearer a target point of view from Foggia than it was from Grottaglie. It was halfway up the country.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And the Army were just moving further up. They’d got up to Rome and were moving slowly up. So we got moved back again to Grottaglie after that but we went back, they flew us back to Foggia. We’d one more operation to do to complete a full tour of operations and they gave us a weeks leave. A bit odd but I wasn’t going to turn it down because we, it was a weeks leave. There was a pass but we had to make our own way, our own transport. We had to hitch it. Oh, I am, I’m so sorry. Would you like a cup of tea or a cup of coffee?
DK: No. I’m fine thank you. Yeah.
BM: Really?
DK: Seriously I’m fine.
BM: I’m sorry about that.
DK: No. Don’t worry.
BM: My wife —
DK: I had one before I came out.
BM: My wife’s got dementia but, she’s very very deaf as well. She likes to keep out of the way. Very difficult for her.
DK: Ok.
BM: Anyway, we hitched across the country from Foggia to Sorrento and of course the roads were up, the bridges were up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Italy is a country with a lot of bridges and a lot of rivers at [pause] We got there. We got to Sorrento eventually. Had a weeks leave. A lovely place Sorrento and [pause] have you ever been?
DK: I have. Yes. Yes. A few years ago.
BM: Been up in the Blue Grotto?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BM: Lovely place.
DK: Yes.
BM: To go swimming there. Anyway, same sort of trip back and after a week got back to Foggia and we were, at that point we were billeted in tents. We were always in tents. All the time I was in Italy we were always in tents and we were in amongst a lot of grape vines. You know everywhere there was blooming just coming, just coming eatable.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Well, barely eatable really. They were still very green and I got a lot of diarrhoea. Not a good thing to be flying an aeroplane when you’ve got diarrhoea.
DK: No.
BM: At all. Anyway, we —
SM: Was it your navigator that did the same thing?
BM: No. No. I was, I was the only one who got —
SM: Right.
DK: Diarrhoea.
BM: The wireless op got a bad cold but I don’t think the others were affected really. In fact, I never even saw them eating grapes. They maybe thought they were too sour. They really were very sour. They weren’t ready. They weren’t ripe. I got this and I had to go to the MO because we were down to — [ chiming clock] — Shut up you. It did you see when you talk to them right, you know.] And I had to go to see the MO because we were all down for an operation that night. The last one. I said, ‘I’m not fit to fly. I can’t fly. I’ve got the screamers. No good at all.’ He said, ‘Right. I’ll stand you down.’ And the wireless op said, well he’d got a very bad cold and he weren’t fit. You can’t use oxygen or anything like that when you were —
DK: No.
BM: It was unfortunate. So we stood down and got a replacement pilot and wireless op. Sent them off. They went off and that was it. I never saw them again.
SM: They didn’t come back.
DK: So all of your twenty nine operations then they were all with 221 Squadron.
BM: 221.
DK: Right.
BM: And that was it.
DK: And that was, the twenty ninth was the only time you were attacked by another aircraft then.
BM: That was all. Yeah. This was all due to being attacked by these —
DK: Yeah.
BM: FW 190s coming back from Greece. It all developed from that.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And —
DK: So, so at that point you’ve come back to the UK have you? Or —
BM: After that?
DK: Yeah.
BM: No. No. I finished and it was obvious they couldn’t trace the aircraft. That was the main thing. They were trying to trace it and there was no trace of it whatsoever and in fact, I’ve got a letter from the, from the War Office Records saying that extensive searches had been done for this aircraft and there was no sight or sound or record of where it was. What had happened to it.
DK: So this was the aircraft you should have flown on then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: And and the rest of your crew were —
BM: All down there.
DK: So —
BM: So there was two of us alive.
DK: Right. So your crew went out with a different pilot and a different —
BM: Different wireless op.
DK: Wireless operator.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And they were just never seen again.
BM: And they were never seen again.
SM: Maybe they were lucky grapes.
BM: How lucky can you be?
DK: Yeah.
BM: But another thing I’ve never mentioned either was that the air gunner went home on a forty eight hour leave when I did.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Same thing. He got married the same weekend, on the Sunday. Never saw his wife again.
DK: Right.
BM: After he went back.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: After the forty eight hour leave was up.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He went back and that was it.
DK: So as the —
BM: That was the length, sorry, that was the length of his marriage.
DK: Yeah. Blimey.
BM: One weekend.
DK: So at this point you, you knew then that the rest of your crew was missing.
BM: Yeah. And in fact, their names are inscribed on the War Memorial at Malta.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BM: And also at Runnymede.
DK: Runnymede.
BM: So the Middle East Air Force run the Malta one. I don’t know why this was done twice but I had no control over it. That’s where it is. I haven’t seen it at Malta but I have seen it at Runnymede.
DK: Do you know where they were flying too? What the operation was to or [pause] When they went missing?
BM: Yes. I do. I do. I’ve got it on a letter. I’ll give it to you in a minute.
SM: Ok.
BM: Will you go and fetch it for me, Simon? If you would. It’s in the kitchen. In a red book.
SM: Ok.
BM: On the table.
[recording paused]
BM: So we’d some, interesting I suppose is not quite the right word.
DK: You didn’t know this other pilot then that they flew out with.
BM: I’d never met him before in my life.
DK: No.
BM: I didn’t know who he was but he took my place and if he’d been a regular crew member —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Thank you. Thank you.
[pause]
BM: So, after that of course I was without a crew and they [pause] they sent me back to Egypt.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by train down to Taranto. Then by boat. Came by boat over the water to [pause] I think it was Alexandria we came to.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And from there I went and did another OTU. Started that again with another new crew in Palestine.
DK: Wellingtons again.
BM: Wellingtons again.
DK: Again. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: I tried to get a transport, a transfer on to Hurricanes.
DK: Right.
BM: I wanted to go back to —
DK: Fighters.
BM: Fly the [pause] But they wouldn’t let me. Actually, I’ve started doing a bit of a journal. Memoirs. There’s still a lot to do at it but —
SM: Yeah. I‘ve given David, it’s just a brief summary of that.
BM: I’ve got about, I was hoping to include about fifty photographs. Yeah. I must tell you this that my father did a memoirs.
DK: Right.
BM: In the First World War and he actually won a Military Medal and a Military Cross.
DK: Oh Right.
BM: On the Somme.
DK: Right.
BM: He got a Military Medal as a corporal at a place called [unclear]
SM: [unclear]
BM: Eh?
SM: [unclear]
BM: Oh, was it?
SM: Yeah.
BM: His French is better than mine. And then a year later he was back on the —
SM: No, it wasn’t a year dad. It was two years later.
BM: Two?
SM: Yeah. He got his first one in 1916.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah.
SM: As —
DK: As a corporal.
SM: As a corporal.
BM: Yeah. Corporal.
SM: And —
BM: He got commissioned in the field.
SM: And then he went to Italy and he came back. Within a mile of where he won his first medal he won the second one —
BM: He got, he got —
SM: As an officer.
BM: No, he got a Military Cross.
DK: [unclear]
BM: And he was an officer then.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: He won the Military Medal and the Military Cross.
SM: He was lucky to survive.
BM: Yes. And he wrote at the age of eighty five something like this.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Well you’re ninety three and you’re doing —
BM: In fact, its yonder on that stool Simon. By the looks of it.
SM: Have you found that letter yet?
[pause]
BM: Look at that fella.
SM: I know. Are you looking for a particular letter dad?
[pause]
BM: There you are. Look. “Christmas Greetings and good wishes from the Royal Air Force Middle East.”
DK: Middle East. 1944.
BM: 1944. I’m looking for this blooming letter [pause] I’ve got it somewhere.
SM: Well, do you want me to look for it while you carry on chatting?
[pause – rustling papers]
BM: That’s your mother.
SM: Yeah. Let me have a look, dad while you carry on talking.
BM: There’s a, there’s a, there’s a letter from the —
SM: The War Ministry.
BM: Yeah.
SM: Let’s have a look then.
BM: Whether I’ve got it in the right book.
SM: Maybe not.
BM: Might be another one.
SM: Let’s have a look.
DK: So you’re at, so going back you’re now in Palestine.
BM: Oh I went to Palestine.
DK: You’re back in Palestine with another OTU.
BM: Hello.
SM: Hello mother.
DK: So you’re getting another crew together at this point then are you?
BM: We got that and when that course was complete we we went down from Port Tewfik at the end of the Suez Canal down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: In a troop ship. A lovely quiet gentle journey that was. We enjoyed that. The best part of the war up to that point and I learned to play Bridge as well.
DK: Oh right.
BM: The three fellas could play Bridge and they wanted a fourth. I could play cards but I couldn’t play Bridge. I’d never played Bridge. Anyway, right. Three days then. Very enjoyable. We got to Aden and then I got sent from Aden by Dakota, had to get up to Aden and then go up in a Dakota to a little island called Masirah which is just short of the Persian Gulf.
DK: Right.
BM: It’s up the Indian Ocean off the coast of Oman just before you go around the corner and go up the Gulf. That was 244 Squadron.
DK: Right.
BM: And we posted there and we got basically the same sort of job. Shipping reconnaissance in dhows, you know [laughs] you know, watching for smuggling but fortunately they didn’t shoot back at us.
DK: How many trips did you make with 244 Squadron then?
BM: I only did four.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: And then that was it.
DK: Right.
BM: Because the way that came about I got a rather nasty dose of sinus. I’d been in Palestine, and in hospital in Palestine rather, in Tel Aviv. I had about ten days in hospital with sinus. I used to get it pretty badly but anyway I had another dose and got to Queen Elizabeth Hospital In Aden and it was a thousand miles from where I was in Masirah to Aden and they laid on especially converted Wellington again to fly from Masirah down to Aden.
DK: Right.
BM: Especially laid on to take me a thousand miles.
DK: Oh right.
BM: And I was in there again ten days in this hospital and when I was better I had a call to the adjutant and he said, ‘I’ve got some good news and some bad news for you.’ He said, ‘Which do you want first?’ I said, ‘I’d better have the bad news first.’ He said, ‘Your squadron’s being disbanded.’
DK: This was 244. Yeah.
BM: He said, ‘Its just been disbanded,’ and he said, ‘You’ve been posted. You been posted to 36 Ferry Unit in [ Allahabad ] in India.’
DK: Right.
BM: And he said, ‘Your crew has been disbanded. Gone.’ They had apparently gone back to Cairo. To Egypt apparently. And he said, ‘The good news is you’ve been promoted to warrant officer.’ I said, ‘Oh well.’ Which do you want first? [laughs]
DK: So you were sent then to 36 Ferry Unit.
BM: So I got posted to 36 Ferry Unit.
DK: Right. Based in India.
BM: From the hospital in Aden. I didn’t go back to Masirah.
DK: Right.
BM: Flew straight there.
DK: To India.
BM: To India. Yeah. And I spent the next, what, eighteen months on 36 Ferry Unit in India. That’s alright because we didn’t spend much time at our own base. We were all over the place. You know, you’d maybe get sent back to Cairo or Heliopolis or —
DK: And what sort of aircraft were you ferrying about then?
BM: Well, as it happened I was in Dakotas but not as first pilot. I was the second pilot.
DK: Right.
BM: I was actually on Liberators.
DK: Oh right.
BM: They were four engine.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I liked flying those because in America everything was spot on.
DK: So you, while you were with the Ferry Unit then you were always as a second pilot.
BM: Not always as second pilot.
DK: Pilot. Yeah.
BM: It all depended on the availability of people to fly any particular —
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: Aircraft. And their ability to fly in any particular aircraft.
DK: So the Liberator was the first four engined aircraft that you flew.
BM: They were the first four engine that I flew. Yeah.
DK: And what did you think of the Liberators?
BM: For many things I liked them. They didn’t have the, they didn’t have the power that Lancasters and Halifaxes would have on two engines. You’ve got two engines you could nearly say well it’s goodbye Mary. They didn’t have, if you’d got any weight on at all you’d no chance.
DK: Right.
BM: But —
DK: So were you delivering new aircraft for the units then?
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: That was our main job was taking, moving new aircraft from MUs, service delivery points.
DK: Yeah.
BM: To say we’d go down to Ceylon with a new one and bring an old one back to Calcutta. Now that was all very well but some of these aircraft had never flown for several weeks or even months but stood out in the hot Indian sun didn’t do them a lot of good.
DK: Right.
BM: And [good morning. She keeps coming and having a look at us.] We had, early 1946 we had a stop put on Mosquitoes. I never actually flew a Mosquito. I always wanted to do but I never got the opportunity to. And there were two instances apparently where wings had fallen off. They reckoned it was because of the extreme heat that they’d been subjected to.
DK: Yeah. Like the glue.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And they were just stationed. Sat there in the sun and it subjected to a bit of extreme, you know, if they were doing a bit of manoeuvring and that sort of thing perhaps. A bit of extra strain on them. I don’t know what the reason was but anyway apparently two aircraft wings fell off and they put a stop on all movement of Mosquitoes.
DK: So at the war’s end then you’re in India still ferrying —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Aircraft about.
BM: Yeah. I mean the war ended, what was it? May 1945.
DK: Yeah.
SM: You’ve not mentioned about meeting up with your brother have you? While you were in India.
BM: Sorry?
SM: You’ve not mentioned about dad’s brother —
DK: Right.
SM: He was in the Army.
DK: Right.
SM: Flew out to, was it [Jahalabad] and you, he got him to impersonate RAF personnel. So he was, he stayed a week with my father.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And he was flying different aircraft all through the week. In fact, my father, this is my uncle told me that he went with dad was it on the Friday and were you in a Liberator at that time?
BM: Yeah.
SM: Dad took off and everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: My Uncle Robin was next to him and dad said, ‘Right. Ok. You can take over now.’ He said, ‘Just follow the Nile.’ And they all went back in to the back to play cards.
BM: Well, they did —
SM: And this was an Army officer.
BM: They needed the experience.
SM: Oh, he’d flown that week with different people.
DK: Oh, that’s ok then [laughs]
SM: And he was impersonating an RAF. He’s not flying a four engine aircraft.
BM: He’d just been promoted. He’d done a course as a promotion from an NCO.
DK: Yeah.
BM: He was a sergeant then to a second lieutenant and he came and had this week with me at Karachi because I wasn’t very well. Not Karachi. At [Allahabad] and I couldn’t do a lot in those days but he, we finished up with several different trips in different aeroplanes. Dakotas and Corsairs, Liberators.
DK: So you put him in Air Force uniform as well then.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Yeah. We dressed him up as a navigator. Well, it made it easier you see as we were walking around the aerodrome. He didn’t get stopped. If you were a young Army officer they’d say, ‘What are you doing?’
DK: Yeah.
BM: And if you were a navigator he could walk in the mess and go and have meals and everything. It was —
DK: Wasn’t his own unit missing him or —
BM: Was he?
DK: Was his own unit missing him at all?
SM: He was on leave wasn’t he?
DK: On leave.
SM: That’s what was commented in the first instance his brother I know it was a big place.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Where everybody was flying in and flying out from but —
DK: Obviously, [unclear]
SM: This always amuses me. My father has told me this but he hadn’t told me the bit about the playing at cards bit and its only until I saw my uncle Robin a few months ago.
DK: Yeah.
SM: That he told me the other side of the story. That on this one occasion he went up with my father.
BM: That’s life isn’t it?
DK: Oh yeah.
SM: He said, he was trying to fly this four engine bomber.
DK: Yeah.
SM: Because, he said during the week he’d been flying two engine ones which manoeuvred a lot easier and he said he was all over the sky with this four engine because every movement he made was so slow.
BM: ’Keep, keep it level. What the hell are you playing at?’
SM: Yeah. Dad came back and said, ‘Oh, that was a rough ride.’ [laughs] But you know at that age you think bloody hell. The risks they took. Yeah. Didn’t give a damn.
BM: He enjoyed it. The little incident though that took place while he was there. Our CO, we had a bit of a scheme where good watches were in short supply. You know, you couldn’t just go and pick up a nice —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega watch or something like. A decent watch and he had a scheme where just once a year he would raffle off half a dozen. I don’t know whether the the NAAFI part of job organised the thing. They bought a half a dozen Omega watches.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Omega, you know were decent watches and he’d buy these and he would raffle them off. Well, anybody who wanted to go in the raffle it didn’t matter whether they were an officer, NCO, whatever they were they could put their names down and have it drawn it out and you’d get to get, you had to pay proper price for them but at least you had the privilege of getting one.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Which was even difficult to do that. So my brother Robin and myself both put our names down for a blooming watch and damn me if we didn’t get one. Out of six watches and hundreds of people who actually —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Put their names down for to get the raffle he and me got one.
SM: You both got one.
BM: Both got one.
BM: And we’ve still have them today.
BM: You still have them. Oh wow.
BM: I don’t use mine but the last time I had it it was it was going but it was losing a lot of time and he said he’d still got his.
DK: Oh right.
SM: I didn’t know that.
BM: That was 1946.
DK: Right.
BM: And they’re still going. Omega watches.
DK: You might just need it serviced.
SM: Yeah. I’ll get dad to do that.
DK: It would be worth doing.
SM: Yeah. It’s worth doing for nostalgia, isn’t it?
DK: Exactly. Yeah.
BM: I ought to write to them.
DK: Yeah. Hopefully a watch —
BM: I might get a free watch from them.
SM: We’ll get that sorted.
BM: Yeah. I’d do well to get a free watch didn’t we? We got two of them. Not one. We’ve got two circulating. I’ll tell you what though. A little tale of it it just reminded just recently Lord Mountbatten was Viceroy of India of course and we used to hear about him circulating and different things and on one occasion he came as a trip of inspection. He came to our unit to inspect not just us I mean we were only a very small unit and we got a, unless actually in Charingi in Park Street in Calcutta probably about twice as big as this room and that was it but it was ours and you know it was a very quiet little place. Anyway, he came to visit us on this particular occasion and he flew in, he had this own private Dakota. He flew in and a guard of honour was all out there on the Parade Ground there and called them to attention inspecting them and away he went. Job done. Half an hour later another one flew in. Another Dakota. Looked like an identical aircraft and it was his wife, Lady Mountbatten. She flew into this. Have you heard this tale before? I should doubt it. Anyway, she flew in and the same thing. Got the same guard of honour. Three rows of troops all out there, sort of thing and she inspected the first row and as she walked down the second row her lady in waiting walking at the back of her with our CO at the side of her and she suddenly bent down and picked up something and dropped it in her handbag and carried on down the next row and back. At the end of the third row off she went. The lady in waiting. Nicholas.
SM: Her pants had dropped off.
[laughter]
SM: She never batted an eyelid from what dad said.
BM: It’s true this is. She, she actually walked off that parade ground knickerless. Well, we’d have had a titter about it and her lady in waiting there I don’t know what [laughs] I was too far to see. I saw it happen. There was a few of us there who were watching the parade but we didn’t know actually, I couldn’t prove it was a pair of knickers that she actually dropped but it was. She’d dropped them off.
DK: Oh dear.
BM: And she never batted an eyelid.
DK: No. Well —
BM: She went up and down those three rows. Never said a word. Funnily enough about two days, three days later the [unclear] got the same incident in mind and I happened to be appointed the officer of the guard. All the lads would take it in turns, you know. We’d do a weeks duty. Officer of the guard and that sort of thing and being a warrant officer I had the same job to do as a, as a commissioned officer.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And as I said there weren’t many of us.
SM: He did turn his commission down by the way.
BM: I called them all, called all the guard to attention and turned around. Saluted the flag. All the guard pulled it down but the blooming thing didn’t shift. I stood looking like a fool looking at it waiting for it and it still didn’t. I looked at the bottom and there was nobody there to pull it down so I said [laughs] I had to turn around and say, ‘Carry on Sergeant.’ And off I went. I had a bit of a red face I can imagine. I had to spend the rest of that week on, on guard duty. Well in charge of the guard every so often. I mean we, we were a bit security conscious.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we used to go shuffling around in a, you know a jeep around the perimeter of the aerodrome and looking at different units seeing that you know they were all at different places out on guard with their rifles.
DK: So, how long were you in India for then?
BM: Well, I left in India in the end of June ’46.
DK: Right. Ok.
BM: And I came back.
DK: Back to the UK.
BM: By train to Karachi.
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BM: And then by boat. I didn’t fly back.
DK: Right.
BM: I came back by boat from Karachi. Crossed the India Ocean and the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean and then all the way back to Liverpool.
DK: So did you spend much more time in the Air Force after that or were you demobbed?
BM: No. No. No. You see I was married.
DK: Right.
BM: I had a very quick fire marriage. I got married and it was two and a half years later when I saw my wife.
DK: Yeah. So you left, you left the Air Force at that point.
BM: I left the air force and went to, Cirencester I think was the DPC or the, you know the unit where they disbanded the [pause] I’d had five and a half years in the control of the RAF because I joined up in February 1941.
DK: Right.
BM: And actually I left the control of the RAF in August 1946.
DK: Right. So what did, what did you, what was your career after that then? What were you —
BM: I, well I became actually a retired peasant.
DK: Right [laughs]
SM: He was offered the chance to fly for the Canadian —
DK: Right.
SM: Not the Air Force. The civilian.
DK: Oh right.
SM: Which was a big honour.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SM: Because everyone wanted to do that.
DK: Yeah.
SM: And mother wouldn’t go out. Not Canadian. Australian.
DK: Australia. What? Qantas.
BM: Qantas.
SM: Yeah. That’s —
DK: Right. Yeah
BM: Yeah.
DK: So you didn’t. You didn’t carry on your flying then after that.
BM: [clock chiming] It’s your fault. Yes. My wife didn’t want me to go and do it. I communicated with her and she said, ‘No.’ I’d been away a long time. ‘You want to come back and get some work done.’ I came back and I joined where I’d left off.
DK: Right.
BM: With my father’s little village business.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BM: You know, as a —
SM: You did, you did rent a light aircraft for several years though didn’t you? You did fly again. You still flew.
BM: Well, yeah, I got a private pilot’s licence.
DK: Right.
BM: That’s a year. I think he reminded me because he came a time or two and —
DK: So you carried on flying for a few more years then.
BM: Yeah. I did a bit of private flying in an Auster.
DK: Right.
BM: As a friend of mine had kept it up at —
SM: He still has been flying until —
BM: Say what?
SM: I don’t know. The last two or three months.
DK: Oh right.
SM: My son flies.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So he’s still going up then.
SM: He’s still going up.
DK: Excellent.
BM: His his son is all over the blooming place. He went to Le Touquet not very —
SM: He was up in Scotland near Cumbernauld yesterday.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Where?
SM: Cumbernauld. In Scotland. Near Glasgow.
BM: Did he? He’s all over the blooming place his lad.
DK: Ok. Well, I’ll finish there. I think that’s really good. Thanks for that. I’ll just ask one final question. All these years later how do you look back on your time in the RAF? What’s your feelings now?
BM: Well, in some ways obviously there are some regrets. I mean I regret the opportunity to go to Qantas. They reckoned I had the experience, you know in the different aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And this, that and the other. And you know probably capable of doing it. But I didn’t do it and I’ve always regretted that.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, talking about the experience. When we were out in India we got a signal from Air Headquarters which was in Delhi. Headquarters for our lot anyway. No. The Far East Headquarters were in Delhi. I got a signal, or my CO did. ‘Warrant Officer Minnitt is to go take the unit Expeditor.’ You know what they are?
DK: Yeah. Twin engine plane. Yeah. Yeah.
BM: Lovely aircraft. ‘And go to Delhi, pick up a senior officer and fly him to Munich.’
DK: Right.
BM: Which is a fair old way. Had to fiddle with fuel a time or two but the CO said, ‘You, you can’t do it.’ No. Let’s get this right. The MO said, ‘You can’t do it.’ Because I’d not been very well. But the CO said I could. You know, he said, ‘You can go and do it.’ And as I say we were more or less on personal terms. We were, we were such a small unit.
DK: Yeah.
BM: I mean, little instances crop up from time to time that you think about it but you said, ‘What are your feelings about it?’ Well, I enjoyed my time in the RAF I must admit. There were many instances which was, you might think well they were a bit rough but it happens. I mean one night for instance we, when we were at Grottaglie it was a bombed out hangars aerodrome. No roof or anything like that on them. If we wanted to see a film we had to wait until it was dark and then we would take our own petrol tin, a five gallon petrol tin and that was our seat.
DK: Yeah.
BM: You could sit on that and you could watch a film. It was alright. Better than nothing.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And we were doing that one night and looking at a Wellington take off and it was one of ours and he got to near the end of the runway and he just, he got airborne, he went down again and [pfft] Fully laden. Fully fuelled up. And we ran across to it and all we could find was a boot. Something like that you know.
DK: Yeah.
BM: There was nothing. With four thousand pounds of bombs and full tanks you’ve got no choice. And we don’t know why. He just didn’t have enough speed.
DK: He needed to take off.
BM: To get up. And we saw it happen. Just, I mean, these sort of things did happen. That’s part of, I wouldn’t say it was part of life but I mean it, they did happen and there you go. You live with it.
SM: Well one of your very first experiences dad was, if you remember —
BM: Eh?
SM: When you, before you joined up the RAF you joined the [pause]
BM: Oh aye.
SM: Not Dad’s Army. They didn’t call it Dad’s Army then.
BM: I joined the ATC.
DK: The ATC, yeah
BM: Artillery training. Was it auxiliary training?
DK: Air Training Corps.
BM: Something like that. Anyway —
SM: There was an aircraft wasn’t there crashed at Laneham.
BM: Yeah. It did.
SM: And you were the first there. Only as a young man.
DK: Yeah.
BM: This was the, well it was a squadron actually based in Lincoln. What was it? 1265 or something like that. I forget the squadron. And they’d got, they’d got this which I joined and I was in the Home Guard at the time. I was always in blooming uniform. From the Home Guard right from 1940. But a Hampden came around the river at Laneham where I lived and I was talking to one of my, the other side of the road and this big bang and we got on the bike and went to have a look at it and it had come around the river at Laneham very low and didn’t make the bend.
DK: Right.
BM: And it was a Hampden from Scampton. They bunged us in and again that was all little bits and pieces and this pal of mine I mean we went to, we thought we were good you see. We were in uniform. Home Guard. And we went to keep the spectators away from it all.
DK: Yeah.
BM: And all the rest of it and it was still bobbing off fireworks. Bombs, not bombs, bullets kept going off. Aircraft tanks exploding and that sort of thing. It was a right old mess. So eventually the RAF fire brigade turned up and some other I think there were one or two police came and didn’t need us around any longer so we just packed in and came home. But that was my first experience of flesh. Burned flesh. You get used to it you know. It happened from time to time. And so —
DK: Yeah. This this incident then obviously didn’t put you off joining.
BM: No.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Not at all.
DK: No.
BM: I mean, it was rather when that time came we went to what were the new barracks at Lincoln and, ‘What have you come for?’ ‘We’ve come to join up.’ We were seventeen when we did it, he and I. ‘What do you want to join up as?’ ‘An air gunner.’ ‘You want to join as an air gunner. Right.’ Filled in all the paperwork and I don’t know whether it was at that point that I said we actually went to Cardington. You know where they made the old —
DK: Yeah. The airship hangars.
BM: Airships.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BM: And that sort of thing. And we did the actually, the joining procedures. You’ve got the filling in —
DK: Yeah.
BM: Give you your numbers and that sort of thing. My number is nearly 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. It’s 1 2 3 2 3 4 7.
DK: And you still can remember it now.
BM: You see, very close to it. And he said, ‘Well, why don’t you remuster as a pilot?’ and I wonder sometimes wonder why. Why was that?
DK: I find that quite unusual actually because other sort of veterans I’ve spoken to they nearly all wanted to go in as pilots.
BM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But they crashed out for some reason.
BM: Yeah.
DK: And then remustered.
BM: Yeah.
DK: Under a different trade.
BM: Yeah.
DK: It’s unusual to hear somebody —
BM: Yeah.
DK: Who wanted to go in as an air gunner and ended up as a pilot. Yeah.
BM: We thought to be an air gunner you know it was all very glamourous and we were going to shoot them all down. Bang bang bang. They said, well that was, we don’t shoot them down but the, we went the other way. I’ll be honest with you. I left school at fourteen. My education wasn’t wonderful in those days and I finished and that’s basically is the reason why I wasn’t commissioned.
DK: Right.
BM: Because I was, you never found anybody commissioned who hadn’t been to a secondary school at least.
DK: Right.
SM: But didn’t you turn your commission down because you were going to be worse off?
BM: Oh, but that was later. That was when I was out in India. I was offered the opportunity to take a commission. That was in 1945. I thought well the war would be over by the end of this year.
DK: Yeah.
BM: No point in having it because I’m better off now as a warrant officer in the uniform I was wearing. The type of uniform, the perks I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: The money I got and I was getting an extra bonus and that sort of thing. I was better off than I was as a flying officer never mind a pilot officer so I, you know I didn’t have any mess fees to pay and all that sort of thing.
DK: So you think then as you left school no qualifications at fourteen the Air Force was good for you in that respect.
BM: It was. It was good for me.
DK: Helped you learn and that —
BM: In that, in that respect. It must have been. I mean, as I say my education was, left a lot to be desired but it was made up in a way with the experiences that I’d got.
DK: Yeah.
BM: In different things and different parts of the world and that sort of thing and that I should never possibly have got in civil life. And I went around the world quite a bit. I mean, I went across the world that way. To Canada. The other side again.
DK: Canada. And then —
BM: Then came back the other way. Right across North Africa. Italy. Middle East. Palestine. Into Aden.
DK: Yeah.
BM: Masirah. India. [Allahabad] and then flying. I did quite a bit of flying into Burma and the war was still on then but places like [Agatara] [unclear] and delivering aircraft in to their places. Into their units and flying their old crap out back to the Mus. We used to go down to Ceylon quite a bit. We enjoyed it. I mean, it was like I just missed out on that opportunity of going to Australia but there we are. These things happen.
DK: Yeah. Ok then. Well, I’ll stop it there I think. Thanks very much for your time. That’s been very interesting. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bruce Minnitt
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMinnittPB170314
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:02:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Bruce Minnitt served in the Second World War flying Wellingtons on maritime reconnaissance in the Mediterranean and B-24s in India. When war started Bruce joined the Home Guard, and in 1941 when reaching 18 years of age, he enlisted in the Royal Air Force. He actually wanted to be an air gunner but was assessed as suitable for pilot training. His flying training was carried out in Alberta, Canada. After over two years of rationing, he enjoyed the improved diet he received in Canada. Flying in an open cockpit through a Canadian winter was particularly challenging. On his return to Great Britain, he was posted to No. 6 Operational Training Unit near RAF Carlisle to fly Wellingtons. He was then sent to RAF Haverfordwest, from where he was sent on leave for 48 hours before being sent overseas. Arriving home, he proposed, and married by special licence before returning to his unit. It was to be over two years before he saw his wife again. On return to his unit he was tasked with delivering a Wellington to Rabat in Morocco. From here, Bruce joined 221 Sqn in Southern Italy. He flew 29 maritime reconnaissance operations, but before what would have been his final operation, both Bruce and the wireless operator became ill and had to be replaced. His crew failed to return from their final operation. He describes one sortie when his aircraft was attacked by two Me 109s. With no radio or hydraulics, they were forced to divert and upon landing they discovered both main wheels had been damaged. Luckily, the airfield was aware of their plight and were able to dispatch immediate assistance when they crash landed. Allocated with another crew in Egypt, he carried out four further operational flights on 244 Squadron, and following its disbanding, Bruce was posted to 36 Ferry Unit in India. He spent the remainder of the war delivering B-24s to operating units throughout South East Asia. Bruce finally returned in June 1946 and having declined the opportunity to remain a member of the RAF, was subsequently demobbed. Whilst in India, Bruce met up with his brother, a serving army officer who was on leave. By disguising him as a RAF officer, Bruce was able to smuggle him on board to enable him to accompany Bruce on a delivery flight.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Pembrokeshire
England--Cumbria
Mediterranean Sea
India
Canada
Alberta
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Rabat
Italy
Egypt
India
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
221 Squadron
244 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
civil defence
crash
Home Guard
love and romance
Me 109
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Silloth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/574/8843/PGillDJ1601.2.jpg
662701a9054e510da854e9411faa026d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/574/8843/AGillDJ161121.2.mp3
97f242e4491fb05ebd220809de918258
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gill, Dennis James
D J Gill
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gill, DJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dennis James Gill (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: David Kavanagh, from the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Mr Dennis Gill at his home on November the 21st 2016. I'll just put that there.
DG: OK
DK: If I keep looking over there I am just making sure it’s working. So if that’s OK. What I wanted to ask you first of all was you were with 199 Squadron as a flight engineer?
DG: No, a rear gunner.
DK: Oh rear gunner, sorry, OK, I've got the wrong ─. It does say that, my mistake, sorry. First of all what were you doing immediately before the war?
DG: Um, I was working, well I ─. I went into Hallcroft Aircraft Company when I left school. I left at 14. I stayed there about a year and then the war started and they put black out, blacked out all the windows and I was in the sheet metal section, a trainee. I didn't like the noise and didn't like being cooped up so I left there and I had one or two other jobs prior to going in the RAF. I ended up working for my father. He had a second hand furniture shop.
DK: Where abouts was that? Where abouts was the furniture shop?
DG: Surbiton in Surrey.
DK: Oh, I know Surbiton well.
DG: Do you?
DK: I used to live there for a while.
DG: Did you? Well I actually lived in Tolworth.
DK: Oh, OK, I know it well. So what year would this have been then, roughly?
DG: What year?
DK: Yes, what year when you joined the RAF?
DG: I think it was about 1943.
DK: So what made you join the RAF rather than the Army or Navy?
DG: Well I’ve always been interested in aircraft and I didn’t want to go in the other ones and the only way you could get into the RAF was to volunteer as aircrew or pilot and, um, I volunteered as a pilot and got approved.
DK: Yes
DG: But they said there was a ─, I wouldn't be called up for a year but if I wanted to be called up straight away, um, I could volunteer as aircrew which I did.
DK: Right, so what would that have meant then? That you could go as any aircrew, gunner or ─?
DG: Well you could volunteer for what position you wanted, but I don't think I would have volunteered but I don’t think I would have volunteered if it had been anything but an air gunner, because I, um, I didn't like the idea of being claustrophobic inside a bomber. I don’t think I would have volunteered but being able to see out ,and especially of course if you were being attacked you could be firing back at something, so that is why I chose that.
DK: Right so you're then a trainee air gunner? So where did the training take place? What was your ─?
DG: Porthcawl in Wales, I can’t really remember, um, up on the Yorkshire coast, Bridlington, those places.
DK: And what did the training involve then as an air gunner?
DG: Well it involved, um, aircraft recognition, Morse Code, I don't know why Morse Code came into it, and semaphore. You know with the lamp and or pointers and of course at Porthcawl we went in Ansons and did flying.
DK: Right, would that have been the first time you flew then, the Anson?
DG: Yes, um
DK: What did you feel about that the first time you ─?
DG: I quite liked that.
DK: So was that gunner training from the aircraft you were shooting at targets presumably?
DG: Well yes, um, one thing that disappointed me was the fact [laughs] that we were in the Anson, there was about five or six of us and there was a mid upper turret, there was a single seater trainer plane putting a target drone about six hundred feet away. We all climbed up there and had a bash at it. You could see them by tracer mainly and when we [chuckles] got down I expected to see the drone peppered with holes but there was only about three in it. [laughs] So it enlightened me a lot.
DK: So hitting a target while you are airborne was quite a bit more difficult then?
DG: Oh yes it is, yes.
DK: So after your official training as a gunner where did you move onto then? Can you remember the name of the operational training unit?
DG: I can’t remember where that was and I haven’t got my log book it disappeared somewhere so –
DK: That's a shame.
DG: Um, but I’ve got copies of the other crew log books but I can’t remember the, where this was, but we went onto, let’s see [pause] yes, I done some writing, don't know if you know, it's been published in that.
DK: Right. Let’s have a look. Just for the recording it's the world’s local history group newsletter number 58 New Year 2015 wartime memories.
DG: I had two or three in there actually but that, um, but the war time memories is quite ─ they are all interesting but this one is about training incidents and that's quite interesting and they are the articles that I’ve written so far.
DK: Oh right. And those articles are all for this publication are they or ─?
DG: No, no they are in, they are in that one and this one.
DK: Oh, The Sterling Times Magazine.
DG: They gradually keep publishing them and all of my articles are with the Imperial War Museum.
DK: Oh, OK.
DG: They got to know about them and asked me to send them. Unless you want copies of them you can have them, but –
DK: Um, I think the centre would certainly be interested in copies of these. That one, that one has got your training memories there.
DG: My training.
DK: So that’s what I'm going to [unclear]
DG: This, um, [flicking through papers] I don't know where it is now but there is one about my pre-war experiences before I went into the RAF, because we had quite a lot of activity in Tolworth before I joined up.
DK: So just following this here at the operational training unit then you trained first on Wellingtons and then Stirlings?
DG: Yep.
DK: So would have that been where you first met your crew?
DG: Yes
DK: So how did that happen? How did you meet them?
DG: Well we went to the OTU for Wellingtons and the procedure is you go into a Nissen hut and the NAFI have got some tables along side with tea and cakes etcetera. There are several air crew ,not air crew actually, several air crew members in there and they are all milling about and there are probably about half a dozen pilots and they look around and they choose who they want to be in their air crew.
DK: Right.
DG: And my ─ the one about the, the training incident tells you about that procedure.
DK: Oh OK, so the pilot approached you then did he? So we need a gunner?
DG: Um.
DK: So can you remember the name of your pilot?
DG: Oh no I can't, I could if I tried but I can’t at the moment but what I know is that, in there, he was older than the average person, thirty, and he got kicked off the course because he couldn’t handle the Wellington then we got another younger chap a pilot officer. He was about twenty. White his name was and eventually we lost him as well because we, er, he crashed the aircraft when we were taking off and he had to go back for more training.
DK: Right, so that was an accident at the OTU was it?
DG: No it was an accident on the 199 Squadron.
DK: So you have done your training first of all on the wellingtons and then the Stirlings?
DG: Yes
DK: So what did you feel about the Wellington as an aircraft?
DG: Well I don’t know whether I had any feeling about it but I quite liked the Stirling. Well, well if you can say you like a material object, I mean –.
DK: But did you feel confident in the aircraft?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: I'm just reading this. [pause]'He's trying to f'ing kill us all' [laughs]. So the first pilot was washed out? He didn't complete the training?
DG: No he couldn't handle it.
DK: So you have another pilot and his name was?
DG: White.
DK: White, so ─?
DG: Nice chap.
DK: So from the OTU then you’ve now gone to 199 Squadron? Straight there?
DG: Yes, that's North Creake near Wells on Sea in Norfolk.
DK: So how many operations did you actually do with 199 Squadron?
DG: Thirty-seven
DK: And were they all on Stirlings?
DG: No Halifax and Stirling
DK: Do you know how many of each?
DG: No, but you had to, when you sign up as an aircrew you have to do thirty ops but what they don’t tell you is that if you are wanted as a spare gunner with another crew that doesn't count. Which is how I came to do the seven more.
DK: Right. So you were a spare bod with another crew then?
DG: On seven occasions yes. The mid upper gunner I think he, he did it on about ten occasions or about nine.
DK: So as, as, as just for the recording really but, as an air gunner what is your duties on the aircraft? What are you really there for?
DG: [laughs] Well nothing actually because in my opinion they were superfluous.
DK: Really.
DG: In night flying.
DK: Yeah.
DG: I just sat there and waited to be killed. There’s no way you can, you can shoot down at a night fighter, no way at all.
DK: Did you see many night fighters then?
DG: We only, I saw one and that I think was stalking us but we were very lucky because they were shooting down so many aircraft that they had to go back to their airfield to get fresh ammunition and this one I’m quite certain had run out of ammo.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Because he simply went away. Which was lucky for us.
DK: Right. So did, so that was the only time you –
DG: The only time, well yes.
DK: Did you fire on him or ─
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: Well I, the reason I didn’t fire on him I was in quite a quandary actually, is because he wasn’t directly behind me. He was at, at that angle and because of that I thought could it be a Mosquito. You see and it was so dark, I'm quite good at recco, but it was so dark I couldn’t really make out and I thought Christ I don't want to shoot down a bloody Mosquito and he got quite near and I could of done but he was at that angle. Obviously not going to shoot at us.
DK: Yeah.
DG: So I didn't shoot.
DK: I guess if you, if you do then fire you’re actually drawing attention to yourselves aren't you?
DG: Yeah.
DK: Very good. What about the flack and the searchlights were you hit at all by the anti-aircraft fire?
DG: No because we were a special duties squadron [clears his throat] and we had all this ─ We didn’t carry bombs just me though, two wireless operators. One did jamming and what we did was throughout this window in front of the bomber, the bombers that were going to a target.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Then we had to go and, go on what they call a race course. I’m not sure how many there were of us, I think there was only two, one on one side of the target, one the other and we went ─ and we had to fly a [unclear] target. We had to fly backwards and forwards each side of the target as near to the target as we could get and fairly low, about ten thousand feet. So that the second specialist wireless operator could jam the anti-aircraft guns and their, and their searchlights.
DK: Oh right.
DG: So we were stuck there. Well at Hamburg we were stuck there for about an hour.
DK: While the raids going on?
DG: Yes and quite close to the searchlights and at Hamburg I saw the chap the other side the target get shot down. So we were ─ you know, and the bloody, we, the searchlights when they come past you they light up the whole of the interior.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Quite frightening actually.
DK: Um. So if you were caught in a searchlight what does the pilot do then to?
DG: Well, um, he, he tried to corkscrew out of it didn't he and of course in that, what ─ there’s one here that says, yes that one, “I’m about to die”. Now this is all about Hamburg and a friend of mine who lives at Lowestoft he was an engineer that went to Hamburg and he said as he was approaching, ‘the amount of flack was unbelievable’, and he said, thought to himself as he approached this ball of flack 'this is where I am about to die'. Well I use that phrase because there was a point where, one of the things that concerned me more than anything, more than the actual enemy was the possibility of colliding.
DG: Um.
DK: And I saw this Halifax coming straight to us from the, from the, from the right hand side like that. And I didn't ─ how it missed us I don't know, I mean only by about a couple of metres if that and that’s where I said, I thought to myself this is where I’m about to die and that was, that was what concerned me more than anything and the other thing of course is we don’t know how many aircraft were, collided with each other, and you see the other thing is when you, when you’re at a briefing they don’t go directly to the target they go on what they call dogleg courses to confuse the enemy as to where you are going. Well if you have got a thousand bombers going there then they’ve got to go that way they’vee all got to turn and if some leave it a bit late, you know, the, the possibility of a collision is huge.
DK: Yeah. So did you go on all of the Hamburg raids then or?
DG: No, No, I only went on one.
DK: Right. Only one? [pause] So this is just for the recording here, this is the “World’s Local History Group Newsletter” number fifty-nine, spring 2015.
DG: Do you want a coffee at all?
DK: Um, I’m fine thank you; I just had one on the way.
DG: OK.
DK: [pause] So how did you feel then at, at the briefings then when you saw the target for the first time?
DG: Well [long pause] [rustling of papers] where is it in here? [long pause] This is the one. [pause] Oh yes. That explains. Our wireless operator is the only other person in the crew who is alive at the moment.
DK: Oh right. OK.
DG: He lives; I think it’s in Staffordshire, Midlands.
DK: You can’t remember his name can you?
DG: Yes, Um, Andy Croxhill.
DK: Andy.
DG: I still write to him.
DK: Croxhill.
DG: Well –
DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.
DG: Pardon.
DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.
DG: Well I hope he doesn’t see that because that refers to him and he was scared stiff of flying.
DK: Right. So he was, he was, sorry, the navigator?
DG: No the wireless officer.
DK: Wireless operator, sorry?
DG: The ordinary wireless operator.
DK: Right.
DG: Not the specialist and of course it tells you there about the briefing when his reaction to it.
DK: So it’s, do you mind if I read this out? Is that OK?
DG: Pardon.
DK: Do you mind if I read this?
DG: No.
DK: So it’s "Wartime Memories the Other Side of the Coin". So bomber aircrew had a unique scenario, in other services you could find yourself at the sharp end of war and it could be traumatic but you did not know when or how many times. If you were bomber aircrew you did know you had to face the sharp end for a minimum of thirty operations and the constant knowledge of this had its psychological effects on you. The media glamorised aircrew as being brave heroes. They were never depicted as being afraid. I spent seven months with my operational squadron and every day I was afraid. We were all afraid so we had to act as if we were not afraid and give morale support to each other except for Andy he was very afraid and a poor actor. Andy was a small slim person with dark hair and pale complexion he didn’t seem an aircrew type to me he said after the war he wanted to sit under a tree and write poetry. We all knew if we had on, if we were on ops when we went to our NCOs mess for a midday meal for there on the blackboard would be the names of the crews involved. So every morning Andy was very quiet. If there was an operation on he ate his meal in silence. If there was no operation his demeanour would change and he would become cheerful and talkative. At an operational briefing the briefing officer was stressing the dangers involved as well into enemy territory and the target would be heavily defended and more night fighters would be deployed. None of us were very happy. I was sitting between Andy and Mitch, a mid upper gunner, and Mitch nudged me and said ‘look at Andy’. I did so and Andy's pale features were white, white as a sheet. Returning from one operation due to bad weather at North Creake airfield we were diverted to a Lancaster Bomber airfield in Lincolnshire. There I met an air gunner I trained with. I remember him as a gregarious cheerful character. I was dismayed to see how he had changed. He was obviously under stress and told me that he was scared about going on operations. He was now very serious and confided in me that he didn’t expect to survive this tour of operations. He seemed to have an intuition about his fate. I only hope he was wrong. That’s by Dennis Gill, Rear Gunner, Stirlings 199 Squadron. Um, so it shows the, the tensions doesn't it?
DG: Yes. And there is another one talking about tension. There is another article that says lost comrades. That’s when you ─, I'll let you have them if you want them.
DK: Yeah. OK that would be good.
DG: Yes, lost comrades that tells you about the tension because we were in our billet with another crew and of course they went off one night and we all wished them a safe operation and they didn't come back. And because you have got five or six beds there all empty for maybe a week and that sort of all affects you.
DK: Um. [pause] So apart from the Hamburg raid then can you recall what other operations you, or what other cities you flew to?
DG: No, we went to the Ruhr quite frequently, yes and Magdeburg, Cologne. They are the ones I remember.
DK: And as, as 199 Squadron, and that was part of 100 Group wasn't it?
DG: Yes.
DK: The special duties. So all of your thirty-seven ops then were special duties?
DG: Yes.
DK: Yeah, with the extra wireless operator there?
DG: Um.
DK: Um. So when, when you converted to the Halifaxes then, how, how did?
DG: I didn't convert to the Halifaxes.
DK: Oh you didn't, oh.
DG: No I just flew in them.
DK: Right OK.
DG: As a spare gunner.
DK: Oh right OK, OK. So your main tour then was Stirling the extra ones were Halifax?
DG: Um and the pilot we eventually crewed up when Pilot Officer White crashed. We had, we obviously had to have another pilot. He had just done a tour. He was a New Zealander about six feet two. Completely fearless. I’ve got another article about him and he was completely fearless and he thought he was immortal I think. And when we finished our operations we were called in to see the Wing Commander or his [unclear], I’m not sure which, who endeavoured to persuade us to have a ─ do a second tour. And none of us did except him.
DK: Right.
DG: And he went out to Japan and did a third tour there and survived that.
DK: Oh. Can you remember his name?
DG: Barrack.
DK: Barrack.
DG: Flight Lieutenant Barrack.
DK: So the, the crash that your previous pilot was involved in, White.
DG: Um.
DK: Were, were you on board at the time when he –
DG: Um, Oh yes
DK: When he crashed?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: So was anybody injured seriously or?
DG: No, I've got another article about that, the crash actually. What happened was this Pilot Officer White because they were all inexperienced these pilots.
DK: And this was in the Stirling?
DG: Yes and the Stirling was easily affected by wind and it was blown sideways onto the rough grass. Before it reached its take off, take off speed he tried to yank it up and he got up so high and stalled, and went banged down again. Then he tried to pull it up again and it went up a bit higher and it came down and the under carriage went through the wing and all the tanks ruptured and caught fire.
DK: The crew all got out ok then?
DG: Well, I was at the back.
DK: So you’re sitting in your turret at the time?
DG: No up against the bulk head.
DK: So you sat there for take offs then?
DG: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DG: With the mid upper gunner.
DK: Yeah.
DG: And of course when we, when we crashed when I looked forward it was all flames. I tried to get out and it was pitch black and my foot slipped and got caught in the structure of the, of the Stirling. I kept trying to pull it out and I thought oh sod that. I pulled my foot out, I pulled my foot out the boot and got out of the aircraft. The other mid upper gunner he got out. The door was open and then I ran away from the aircraft and then I thought is there anything I could do so I started to run back then I saw all these crew coming up out of the top escape hatch and the flames were about ten feet high beside the fuselage and they went through them. Why they didn't go the other way I don't know, [laughs] over the nose, which was [laughs] obvious to me but anyway they all came over the top turret, down the fuselage onto the tar plain and we stood there watching it burn and of course the flames got to the mid upper turret, triggered the, the mechanism to shoot and it, and it was dipped down about five degrees aimed directly at us [laughs] and the [unclear] was going straight over our heads so we all dived to the ground and it eventually finished.
DK: But you were all ok though?
DG: Yes but when I went to the, to the stores to get another pair of flying boots the pilot officer who was the stores, in charge of the stores, he accused me of panicking [laughs].
DK: I'm not surprised; I think I would have panicked. [laughs]
DG: Well, maybe he was right but I don’t know. [laughs]
DK: [laughs] Oh dear. So did you get your new flight boots?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: Um. But the crew were all OK though?
DG: Them were all OK, yes.
DK: But what, your Pilot White never flew again then?
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: Well I don’t know whether he flew. But he survived the war I know that, but him, he probably went on and flew with another crew.
DK: Um.
DG: I don’t know.
DK: So that’s when you got the New Zealander then?
DG: Um.
DK: Pilot Officer Barrack?
DG: But I, we were only on the squadron seven months. You see. I did thirty-seven ops in seven months which was about, I don’t know two, one or two every three weeks, something like that.
DK: And they would have all been in 1943?
DG: Forty-four, forty-five it would have been .
DK: Right.
DG: Those. Yes the beginning, in the summer and winter of forty-four we did that.
DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations or?
DG: Pardon.
DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations? The Normandy invasion?
DG: Well that’s when we more or less started.
DK: Right.
DG: And then, Um. Yes.
DK: So you did your thirty-seven operations, you finished your tour. Did you, did you know you were about to end your tour then or did it come as a bit of a surprise that you were no longer flying?
DG: No because when we done thirty with the aircrew we all knew we were finished. I went onto a mechanics course. Went to Blackpool and the, the mid upper gunner was given a commission and he went out to India.
DK: Right.
DG: And served there.
DK: So, so what did you do for the remainder of the war then? Were you training or?
DG: Well I was ─ well I was being trained as a mechanic.
DK: Right.
DG: But shortly after that I got demobbed.
DK: Right. So what was your career after leaving the RAF then?
DG: Well I had one or two jobs but because I hadn't got a, a profession and I happened to get into a nearby local council doing their printing, plan printing and going out with the surveyors and there was a building inspectors office there and I went and saw the chief engineer and I said ‘could I spend some time with the building inspector ‘because I wanted to study building.
DK: Right.
DG: Not stay in this job there was no future in it and he agreed and then there was, I saw an advert for a trainee building inspector at Mitcham and I applied for that and got it and that's where I started my career as a building inspector.
DK: Oh right, OK. So after all these years how do you look back on your time in the RAF?
DG: [laughs] Well it was very traumatic and makes you very anti-war and but you ─, but you ─, and I very, and I, after the war I was very concerned about, and when I was in, in, in doing the operation, concerned about area bombing. Which was against the laws of war, whatever that, I can’t remember what they are.
DK: The Geneva Convention?
DG: Yes the Geneva Convention, yes against that but of course it’s all very well for people to sit round a table and make rules but when you’re actually in the war and there’s a possibility you are going to lose it you don't worry about rules and after the war I, I realised then that we had no alternative but to do that because anyway Hitler and the Nazi's were doing it in Spain and elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
DG: But there you are, that’s war I mean it's a sort of madness really.
DK: Um. Did you stay in touch with your crew at all after the war or?
DG: Yes for a while, yes but the engineer went to South Africa. He caught a disease there and died. The pilot went back to New Zealand. I don't know what he did but he of course passed away. There’s only me and Andy who are left.
DK: The wireless operator?
DG: Of the crew, yes.
DK: And you’re still in touch with him then?
DG: Oh yeah.
DK: That's Andy Crookshaw?
DG: Um, yes.
DK: From Staffordshire? So let's see if we have, if he’s been interviewed or not.
DG: Um.
DK: OK, that's great. It’s really interesting.
DG: Um, Ok.
DK: What we got there? That’s thirty-five minutes.
DG: Do you want copies of my writings or not?
DK: Please if that's possible.
DG: Well I’ve got them in A4 form.
DK: Right, OK. ‘Cause what we can do, I'll just explain, I'll just turn this off but thanks very much for your time. I’ll just keep this –
DG: He quite frequently told the pilot he was shutting an engine down.
DK: This was the flight engineer?
DG: Yes, and then later on he told them he’d restarted it, well I don’t know if it was to do with icing or anything like that. Might have been.
DK: Right. So how often was your flight engineer shutting down an engine then?
DG: Well I, well I think during our tour he done it about ten times.
DK: Oh.
DG: Roughly.
DK: Right.
DG: I guess.
DK: And, and just the one engine each time?
DG: Yes, just the, well no he shut down two at one time and we were losing [unclear] all the time and he managed to get them back. [laughs]
DK: Strange. We'll leave that there.
DG: I don’t really understand and that is why I’ve never ─. I’ve read quite a lot of books about the war but why Hitler was so anti-Semitic.
DK: Um.
DG: You know, I’ve never seen any explanation for it.
DK: For it. No.
DG: But was it just an excuse or something?
DK: It's taken as read that he was anti-Semitic but not explaining what made him anti-Semitic.
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: And the other thing is that I think is most important. I was going to write to the Imperial War Museum, um, I, I can understand someone like Hitler who is really a very psychopath and a bit mentally disturbed really because you know he’s got this thing about his country and the and the Germans being superior race and all that sort of thing but, I can’t what I can’t understand is if he had been in this country and he was voicing his opinions about enslaving the world for the right of England I would have said it's wrong.
DK: Yes. That's an interesting question. Why did the German people ─
DG: Why did they, why –
DK: So –
DG: Why were they all evil? I mean these fighter pilots, I mean some of them fighter pilots, one of them shot down three hundred aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Now I ─, if you’re doing that to enslave the world you're bloody evil and yet you never hear people talking about them. That Galland for instance he’s another guy. In my opinion they were all bloody evil except the poor buggers who were conscripted.
DK: Yeah.
DG: But anyone who volunteered to do that in my, in my opinion they were evil.
DK: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re, they’re supporting the regime aren't they?
DG: Yes of course they are, course they are.
DK: Yes, but I guess Britain did have its fascists there was Oswald Mosley.
DG: Um.
DK: But the British people didn't, didn’t really take to him did they. They didn't follow him.
DG: No.
DK: He was a bit of a joke. He wasn't –
DG: Um.
DK: He wasn’t taken seriously as a serious fascist leader like Mussolini and Hitler was.
DG: Um.
DK: That’s an interesting question that one.
DG: It is.
DK: Why did people like Hitler so readily ─
DG: And well I’ve got a book, it’s in my bathroom I read it when I’m sitting on the toilet, about how the English people, like my nationality, they bugged the prisoners of war who were here and listened to what they were talking about and it's very sickening the way they enjoyed killing people.
DK: Um.
DG: You know I can’t imagine English people doing that.
DK: No, no.
DG: Anyway.
DK: But it was killing by the allies that was done reluctantly with the access powers they seemed to be doing it willingly and ─
DG: Oh yes, yes, um.
DK: Very strange.
DG: Well there’s a bit –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dennis James Gill
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-21
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGillDJ161121, PGillDJ1601
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force
Format
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00:38:48 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis joined the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1943 as a rear gunner. His training took place in Porthcawl on Ansons, and in Bridlington. At the Operational Training Unit, he trained on Wellingtons and Stirlings, and crewed up. He joined 199 Squadron, part of 100 Group, at RAF North Creake.
Over six months, Dennis carried out 37 operations, of which seven were as a spare gunner on Halifaxes. The remainder were on Stirlings. They were a special duties squadron carrying out jamming operations. He went several times to the Ruhr, Magdeburg and Cologne. He also recalls a difficult raid to Hamburg. He describes some of the psychological impacts on aircrew.
Dennis then went on a mechanics course in Blackpool and was demobilised shortly after.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
199 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
crewing up
fear
Halifax
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF North Creake
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/647/8917/ATinsleyR150604.2.mp3
1eeab019890c4025d5470d7ef66f9a51
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Tinsley, Dick
Richard Tinsley
R Tinsley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Tinsley, R
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dick Tinsley (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 115 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-06-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is David Kavanagh the interviewee is Dick Tilsley the interview is taking place in Mr Tilsleys home on the 4th June 2015.
DK: So can you remember which year it was, that you joined the Airforce?
RT: Yeah, it must have been 1944 I suppose.
DK: 1944...so how old would you have been then?
RT: Mmm 20
DK: So what were you doing prior to that? Were you in education?
RT: Education I suppose and Public Schooling so yes i was.
DK: So what school was that?
RT: In Northampton, one of the public schools [pauses] we farmers were often sent to these public schools.
DK: And what was your reasoning for wanting to join the airforce?
RT: Well I knew I was going to mmm I had....errr my family had always been in farming and we lived at Moulton, do you know where Moulton is?
DK: Yes, yeah
RT: Near Holbeach and my Mother came from Northamptonshire as a Farmer's daughter and they got married had three sons, and I was the third. The eldest one had got set into Farming before the war started, and when the second one came in he'd already joined the Territorials
DK: Right
RT: Only assuming only being , mmm what do you call it [?] patriotic I think and of course they were the best people, you know, the go getters, they they wanted to do something like that. We went to Lincoln and they just paraded around a bit once upon a [unclear] that sort of thing. So when war declared they were called up straight away.
DK: Yeah?
RT: I was at home ,still at school I think then I remember the local err army [what do you call it] Anti-aircraft unit?
DK:Yep
RT: Arrived in our park which was was just a field that's all, and they set up shop and searchlight and I thought it was wonderful, good old war, as I was about 16 or something but i think we had all heard so much about the first war and the blood and guts of the trenches anything to get out of that or get into what soppy thing there was going at school, anything was soppier than trenches.
DK; had your Father been in the First World War?
RT: No
DK; No?
RT: I lost an uncle
DK: An uncle ok
RT: In other words his brother-in-law he got in perhaps he was drafted, or...I never knew him and he was sent to the front and they were resting in a barn behind the line as the Germans dropped a shell on them and he was wounded in the back and died.
DK:Oh dear
RT: Yeah that's the second time....and emmm it might have been the other.....
DK: So you've decided to join the airforce then, yeah?
RT: Mmm I was at school it was quite a rough military day bolshing you bossing you , so I had a rifle for the day you had one...you had one err you had one year, day a term which they did sort of military exercises.
DK: Right.
RT: And erm and so and of course when they started the air force thing it was much more lexid to go out to aerodromes and in [unclear] and all that and err when it came to been called up and then we were eventually called up and went to grading [?] station.
DK: Right.
RT : That was in Bedfordshire somewhere and then we were sworn in and all that, then we went to London and Lords cricket ground where they did injections for you and all that sort of thing. After that I decided , [unclear] decided what are they going to do with you, I don't know how well we passed, I don't think we knew but it was good enough.
DK: Yeah, err you went in immediately then for err pilot training, was that …..?
RT: Well everybody was yeah
DK: Everybody together right
RT: Yeah
DK: So….
RT: On the whole the navigator was the second most err posetic and brightest then you get the wireless op ,then the bomb aimer then gunner. They hadn't got me on on to being a pilot yet because then they sent you, if you passed that pilot you went to a grading school just near coventry, it's not too far from here, where you did twelve hours flying, and err they assessed you as to whether you were fit for pilots training.
DK: And that the first time you were at the controls?
RT: Yes.
DK: Flying?
RT: Yes it was a Tiger Moth.
DK: Tiger Moth yeah.
RT: Then they sent you home and waited until they wanted to call you up to go to Canada. So they sent us to the Queen Mary which was docked at the Clyde and we cruised across to Canada, you might say this was a dangerous trip I suppose they were getting away with taking these fast liners and risking getting in the old....errrr caught up in the German submarines.
DK: Mmmm yeah
RT: Which how they got away with it I don't know but they did get away and they filled them full and on the return journey they were full of American troops absolutely jammed full bringing them over for D-day which was quite a lot we did, anyway .....and then what happened?
DK: You've got to Canada...
RT: And err [coughs] forgive me muttering but i've got a very weary brain.....I don't mind the weary brain....but....
DK: That's ok take your time.
RT: It's... errr….
DK: You've arrived in Canada then?
RT: Yeah there was a PDO a personnel reception centre.
DK: Right.
RT: Which was a whole aerodrome full of personnel, err personnel huts where they held you, and kept you amused, held parades, this, that and the other until they got an airfield to send you too, and that you didn't get any decision on that at all you just do when you're told that was about four days out to Regina that's roughly where we were at, dead centre of Canada, in the Prairies.
DK: Right, right.
RT: You got contact with them then ?
DK: No.
RT: Oh... then they had a course on a single engine plane which was a thing called a Cornell.
DK: Cornell yeah.
RT: A Fairchild Cornell yes.
DK: It’s listed in your logbook. Cornell
RT: Yeah....is it there?
DK: It's in there yes...you are doing aerobatics there.
RT: Mmmm...
DK: Did you like the Cornell?
RT: Yes, yes.
DK: Doing acrobatics there.
RT: Yes, then some went down to America.
DK: Right.
RT: The Americans were helping us out you see, then they went over to single engine planes but I never went on that.
DK: So how long were you in Canada for then?
RT: I was there 10 months.
DK: Really [emphasis]?
RT: Yeah well that was because, well that was a good do because I was out of the war for 10 months and things went by and .....[laughs].
DK: Do you remember much about Canada?
RT: Yeah yeah.......didn't matter to me it was as cold as could be in winter [laughter]and er that whole...that whole aerodrome belonged to the British, well it belonged to the the Canadian air force but that where the RCAF came in.
DK: Oh right I see yeah yeah.
RT: Then, then after we finished that we went on to what we called Senior flying training corps which was fast that one,er.... it was err was what do you call it, sometimes I think of these things and sometimes can't, Richard doesn't help as he wasn't there?
DK: There's an aircraft called the Crane here....
RT: Yeah that's it, the Cessna Crane.
DK: It seems like you were flying Ansons and Cranes.
RT: Ansons were British aeroplanes, if we did anything in training, in training Cranes then after 6 months, can't think what would take all that time but it would...
DK: Looking at the log book there are a lot of flights on the Crane right through February 1944.
RT: Yeah that would be.
DK: Nearly everyday.
RT: Yeah that would be, that was a twin engine plane they were sort of the general idea that was for Bombers.
DK Then the Anson from March 1944?
RT: I don't know, I don't remember that, I honestly don't remember the Anson, there wouldn't be many they were British versions...........they come out of date as far as a Bomber came they were our efforts for getting the war to have a good bomber Avro, Avro [emphasis].
DK: Avro Anson yeah?
RT: Yeah.
DK So you've then come back to England?
RT: Yes I came back.
DK: Was that on the Queen Mary again?
RT: No, it wasn't
DK: Arrh another ship?
RT: Yes, I can't remember the name of it, but it will be on there I should think, [pause] it could have been any of those but it will be on there I'm sure.
DK: Yeah, I can't find it at the moment. It says here you went to Derby then?
RT: What for?
DK: Barniston?
RT: Burnaston.
DK: Burnaston, sorry.
RT: Burnaston yes, that was a flying course within UK conditions, Burnaston.
DK: So was it a big difference, flying in Canada than flying in the UK?
RT: Mmmm I remember one of the Australian, Canadian he was in charge of us on the area, he said "yous boys in the old country, say you'll get lost" [laughter].
RT: Then of course at that time we were relying on the Canadians services far more.
DK: Then you come back to Burnaston?
RT: Mmm.
DK: Then you are flying de Havilland 82. Do you remember much about that?
RT: I don't, I'll see if i can recall it.
DK : It's the Dominie I think?
RT: Oh dear, DH yeah....[pause] flying around training again.
DK: It says its number 22 EFTS is that familiar?
RT: It's familiar but....
DK: I've noticed you.....
RT: I rather think it was a twin engine.
DK: A twin engine yeah, and then you got the Dakota here.
RT: Ah that….
DK: RAF Leicester East.
RT: The war had ended.
DK: Arrh ok.
RT: Leicester East was the Transport Command place, and...
DK: Sorry I'm jumping ahead of myself here.
RT: And, they sent us out to Cairo, in these Dakotas but they were going to have to organise what they conquered in the Middle East, so one fine day they flew overnight to the centre of Cairo airport.
DK Really?
RT: And, err...
DK: So just going back a little bit here, February 1945 you’re with the Heavy Conversion Unit.
RT: Yes.
DK: At Langar, 1669 heavy conversion unit, err, was that the first time you saw the Lancaster?
RT: Well it wasn't in my case, but ........ but it was really but from somewhere I just had a day out with them , we just had a trip.
DK: What did you think when you first saw the Lancaster, laid eyes on it first saw it? Did it fill you with confidence?
RT: Yeah i think so, i don’t I can't remember anything about that bit or the bit we did, then until the war ended or rather until the ...err.
DK: Do you remember much about Langar and the Heavy Conversion Unit?
RT: No,no we just arrived and we were got into crews, we were all old soldiers at that time.
DK: I’m just noticing here you have got a mention of an engine fire.
RT: Yes I presume that there was.
DK: You help put out a fire, do you remember that? [ laughter]
RT: No i don't at all.....
DK: Come on.....drive it down....poke him, poke him [laughter].
RT: I do remember it now, but I can't say I'd remember otherwise.
DK: Do you remember much about the incident of the engine fire?
RT: No, not at all it was over Wales.
DK: Over Wales?
RT: It was on a training trip over Wales I'd forgotten all about it.
DK: You landed ok though?
RT: Yes, and that was it no doubt it was only a scare, or something but anyway well whatever it was the fire extinguisher put it out and it wasn’t long till we got back to the airfield.
DK: So following the log book then you then joined 115 Squadron at Witchford.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember much about Witchford?
RT: Yeah it was 3 miles outside Ely typical wartime airfield built in 19....built just near where I went to school, where I went to school is.
DK: Coincidence [laughter].
RT: Witchford, I gathered from reading books later that there was two squadrons stationed there, so obviously they built airfields, bomber airfields as fast as they could.
DK: So I'm looking at the logbook here it's got March the 18th, would that have been your first operation there? Its Buschstrass?
RT: Bruchstrasse.
DK: Bruchstrasse, sorry.
RT: Apparently it was an oil refinery in the Ruhr, we weren't told very much about about it, except that we missed it.
DK: Oh [laughs].
RT: Apparently the beam was set, they had got it wrong.
DK: Right
RT: But anyway plenty of them missed, yep.
DK: Well, it says here it was a daylight raid, got in brackets there day, so you were flying in the day?
RT: Yeah a bit of both.
DK: Right ok.
RT: They were the...red were night and….
DK: Right.
RT: What does that say?
DK: Thats green.
RT: what does that say?
DK: That's err Heligoland?
RT: Yeah that's an island south of Hamburg somewhere.
DK: So there was two operations to kill on the 9th and 13th April.
RT: Yes i suppose so, yes.
DK: Do you remember much about those?
RT: No i dont, we were just told by the bomb aimer afterward that we didn't hit the target presumably we couldn't see it, we weren't told much, then the war ended.
DK: So then into May then, so there's 1, 2, 3, 4 so that looks like about 5 operations.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So five operations and then three operation Manna operations?
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right, so do you remember much about Operation Manna? How did that make you feel knowing you were dropping food rather than bombs?
RT: I’m sure it made you feel very good, we didn't know what we was in for first time, we was going to Germany with bombs at 20,000 feet and the next day we were going ten hundred feet or whatever it was over the Hague or Dane Hauger [?] whatever the Danes call it.
DK: The Hague , so the food drops were at low level then?
RT: Yes well as low as they dare because it mustn't burst they were either in double sacks or whatever they chose.
DK: Do you remember seeing the people on the ground?
RT: Yeah.
DK: And what were they doing?
RT: Waiting for something to happen, to see what they could get.
DK: Were they waving?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So you could see all that?
RT: Oh yes I can clearly remember one plane flying nearly along side us they got a sack a sack of food stuck in his bomb bays when he came back no doubt it got dropped in somewhere.
DK: So at that point then the war in Europe had ended?
RT:yeah just.
DK: Just yes.
RT: I think you will see that's there the.....
DK: What were your feelings at that time then were you.....?
RT: Without a doubt very pleased now that's ...one thing that's quite interesting coz those crew members there about three of them so bored with things presumably they were somewhat aware it wasn't really dangerous anymore, they wanted to see the their names up on the list… I was one if I had a job to do I'd do it, I probably wanted the job but didn't want to be the end bit the end bit of meat.
DK: So how long after the war then did you stay in the air force? Was it another…..
RT: As little as possible.
DK: You wanted to get out did you?
RT: Yes yes, I never wanted to get in and I just was a good boy did as I was told and passed exams as I was supposed to.
DK: So can you remember what year you actually left?
RT: Oh, now that would be, it will be in there somewhere [refers to logbook].
DK: You are still here, 1947.
RT: It would be then, it was the Spring.
DK: So you left in 1947? Thats after a period in the Middle East?
RT: Yeah we were sitting about the helm a lot doing nothing, because they over calculated the amount of aircraft they had to keep in the Middle East to keep things working.
DK: They had to find you something to do.
RT: Yes find us something to do, pity really it was a stage of one's life when you wanted to get on with something.
DK: Just going back to the end of war in Europe, at that period was there any mention to you about perhaps having to go out and fight in the Far East?
RT: No.
DK: You didn't no.
RT: No the others who went back, straight away and they split us all up, no doubt I'd go for a longer leave at home, but they kept very strictly to this, what do you call it? Code of release by time and… when your number came up because you had been in for so long, and you were so old or so I’d got out.
DK: So how old would you have been when you left?
RT: Forty Six [?].
DK: And after that did you go back into farming at that point?
RT: Mmm, yeah all that time sitting in the Middle East for about a year, sitting on my bum really. It was in the desert I got jaundice, nothing apart from a waste of time for everybody, I could see what the plan was, it was just they wanted things to be able to go to North Africa someone to go down to Nairobi and do this or that. [pause] Have you seen any other log book?
DK: I have seen some, yeah quite a few.
RT: They are all pretty similar.
DK: Yeah they are more or less the same yeah, so how do you look back on that period now?
RT: A waste of my youth and pretty boring, I was stationed at Ely, there wasn't much at Ely. It wasn't even far from home that wasn't.
DK: Did you used to pop back home when you could?
RT: Mmmm.
DK: Yeah because it down the road, that was something.
RT: Well there wouldn’t be the transport for it but I got home somehow, if you had a motorbike you'd be home in an hour or so.
DK: You had a motorbike then did you?
RT: I didnt no, there wasn't any petrol for one thing.
DK: That's true, ok well thanks you very much for that I will stop this now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dick Tinsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-04
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATinsleyR150604
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:29:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dick was from a farming background and joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. After going to Bedford, he was sent to Lord’s cricket ground. Those passing as a pilot went to a flying school near Coventry to be assessed for pilot training on a Tiger Moth. Canada followed, where Dick went to a personnel reception centre and then an airfield in Regina. He did a course on a Cornell and then went to a senior flying training corps on a Crane.
After returning to England, Dick did a flying course at RAF Burnaston. In February 1945 he went to 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Langar with Lancasters. He helped to put out an engine fire on a training trip over Wales. Dick then joined 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford. He recalls a daylight operation to an oil refinery in the Ruhr. A target was also missed in Heligoland. There were two operations to Kiel. He was involved in Operation Manna to The Hague. Dick was sent to RAF Leicester East after the war had ended and flew C-47. He was sent to Cairo. Dick left the RAF in Spring 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Coventry
England--Derbyshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Nottinghamshire
Canada
Saskatchewan
Saskatchewan--Regina
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Great Britain
Netherlands--Hague
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
115 Squadron
1668 HCU
bombing
C-47
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Burnaston
RAF Langar
RAF Leicester East
RAF Witchford
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/PBeasleyDG1727.1.jpg
3e6476a4caca883b605d7c511cc297fb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/ABeasleyDG180326.2.mp3
d30a8491f63c56f32a83d26c6d06fe2d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beasley, Doug
Douglas George Beasley
D G Beasley
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Doug Beasley (b.1925, 1876732 Royal Ar Force) and photographs of aircrew. He flew operations with 76 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Doug Beasley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beasley, DG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Doug Beasley at his home on the 26th of, where are we? March 2018. So if I just put that there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s working.
DB: It’s working.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Right. Yeah.
DK: It is. Sometimes get caught out with the batteries going or something.
DB: They’re quite good those aren’t they?
DK: They are nice. A very handy little —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Little bit of kit that. Right. So, if I can just ask you —
DB: Yeah.
DK: What were you doing immediately before the war?
DB: Well, I, I was still at school when war was declared but in, when I was [pause] yeah I left school and when I was sixteen I started work in, in a company called British Glues and Chemicals Limited.
DK: Oh right.
DB: And I was studying really accountancy. I also was in the Air Training Corps immediately I was sixteen. And that meant that as soon as I was eighteen I went to, to the Aircrew Reception.
DK: Right.
DB: Selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: People.
DK: Was the Air Force your first choice then?
DB: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, I was in the Air Training Corps.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And the, three months later I was in the RAF. And the reason was, I was accepted as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer which everybody wanted to be and they said, ‘But it will be at least a year before you join up.’ And I said, ‘Well, all my friends have gone into the RAF as well.’ And the new position of flight engineer was just coming in.
DK: Right.
DB: And they talked, well I don’t say they talked me into it but you acted as second pilot anyway.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so —
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
DB: Yeah.
DK: What was the first things you had to do when you joined the Air Force? Because presumably there was a bit of square bashing going on or something. Or —
DB: Well, yeah, the first thing was I joined up at of all places Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Right.
DB: And thirty thousand of us turned up there. And as I’m a cricket fan I’m part of the history of Lord’s, you see.
DK: Oh excellent.
DB: So, and we —
DK: You, have you ever been out to bat there, Doug?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: You’ve not been up to bat. No. No.
DB: No. No. No. Nothing like that but —
DK: That’s what I always wanted to do.
DB: There’s a special plaque up in Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Yes. I’ve seen that. Yeah.
DB: So we were there for three weeks and then funnily enough I was, I then went to the Initial Training Wing which was [pause] I found all these things.
DK: Ok.
DB: Which was at Torquay.
DK: So if just say this for the recording then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you were at Number 3 Initial Training Wing.
DB: Yeah.
DK: C Flight of number 2 Squadron. And that was in October 1943.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So whereabouts are you then? Are you —
[pause]
DK: Ah.
DB: The names there as well.
DK: You haven’t changed much.
OJ: I couldn’t find him earlier [laughs]
DK: So they were all sort of the same age as you then were they?
DB: Well, no they weren’t.
DK: Oh right.
DB: I was explaining to my grand-daughter a lot of them were policemen.
DK: Oh.
DB: And they were not allowed to join until they were thirty years old.
DK: Right.
DB: So I found myself, all that back row were policemen basically.
DK: They do, and now you’ve said they do look a lot older don’t they?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And —
DK: So how old would you have been in October ’43?
DB: I was just, I was just eighteen then.
DK: Eighteen.
DB: Yeah. Eighteen and a quarter. Yeah.
DK: So presumably they couldn’t join earlier because they were in a Reserved Occupation.
DB: Yeah. They couldn’t join earlier.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No. I mean we were you know the younger ones. I don’t know how many were in the same category as me but I always seemed to be about the youngest at the moment, you know.
DK: Right.
DB: But I think it was because of this Air Training Corps I was in. As soon as I was eighteen I was interviewed and then three months later I was in the RAF. And that was when I joined up to Lord’s Cricket Ground you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 3 ITW was based where?
DB: Torquay.
DK: Torquay. Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And we were there for about six weeks I think. Yeah.
DK: And what used to happen at Torquay then?
DB: Well, that was, that was when they really [laughs] they really, you got, you got a pretty awkward flight sergeant looking after you and they were basically getting us absolutely fit. There was a lot of running going on etcetera. But it was your initial training for the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. On that.
DK: Was it something you took to well at the time?
DB: Well, yes. Well, there’s a lot worse places than, to be than Torquay. So that was quite interesting. Yeah. And then after that I started my basic training which was at St Athans.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Which was one of the largest, well I think it was the largest place in the, outside Singapore. Something like that anyway. And I was there then for, oh that was quite intensive training. Yeah.
DK: And was that training to be a flight engineer?
DB: Oh yeah. Very definitely.
DK: So you didn’t, you said you tried to join as a pilot.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Bomb aimer. Navigator.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But was turned down for that then presumably.
DB: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t really turned down. I could have taken it if I was prepared to wait twelve months.
DK: Right.
DB: But as I mentioned most of my friends had joined the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: And, well I didn’t want to miss it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I know that sounds a bit foolish but —
DK: So, what was the training like then at St Athans? What did you have to do?
DB: Well, it was, it was very comprehensive really because I wasn’t ever trained as an engineer. But of course the most important subject you had to be good at was mathematics because in the air you did everything.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And so there was a lot of basic training on engines and stuff like that but what, what was really always mentioned was it’s what we had to do in the air.
DK: Right.
DB: If things went wrong. And of course there was a lot of basic training because the pilot and myself were the liaison group with the engineers. Ground engineers. So it was pretty intensive. The training.
DK: So, at St Athan did they actually have aircraft that you worked on or was it all parts?
DB: Yeah. Well, there were aircraft there but part of the training was we went to Speke Airport.
DK: Right.
DB: Where at that time they were producing Halifax aircraft which I was on, and so we saw, saw them in production then and I think we spent about three or four days there.
DK: Right.
DB: Really learning all about the thing. And, and that was the first time I saw a lady pilot, you know taking off.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was an airport.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Well, it still is. Liverpool Airport now. So that was quite an interesting background. And then after that I went straight to the Heavy Conversion Unit. I mean, and that’s, that was immediately on to four engine aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the flight engineer, we were all flight engineers there in the Heavy Conversion Unit and I think I was there a good two or three months ahead of the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: Because the ordinary crew went to Operational Training Units, and what happened was then they came to the Heavy Conversion Unit and we flight engineers all lined up and, and the respective pilots came along and —
DK: Picked one of you.
DB: Picked. Well, it was quite interesting with mine because he was a Canadian and he was thirty one years old. And he just said, ‘What’s your name?’ So, I said, ‘Beasley.’ He said, ‘No. Christian name,’ you see.
DK: Right.
DB: So I said, ‘Doug.’ He said, ‘My name’s Doug.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had something in common straight away. And so it was a funny form of selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What crew you were in.
DK: Do you think that, do you think that worked well then with the pilot just coming up and choosing his flight engineer?
DB: Well, it did as far as we were concerned. Yes. I know of no complaints at all. We all, we all got on very well. The two gunners were British. One was Welsh.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And one was English.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name? Doug?
DB: Yeah. Kerr. K E R R.
DK: Kerr.
DB: I’ve actually as a matter of interest I only found this the other day myself but it’s, I’ve got somewhere here photographs of them all. All —
OJ: I thought I’d be nosey.
[pause]
DK: Oh wow.
DB: That’s, that’s the same as that one.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: That was one of my pals. That was when I first joined up.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was the, that was the pilot. Kerr. Pilot Doug Kerr. This was July 1944.
DK: Just, just for the recording.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s Kerr. K E R R.
DB: K E R R. Yes.
DK: Dg Kerr.
DB: The navigator was Alec Marshall.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then that was the bomb aimer. Jerry Lowe.
DK: Jerry Lowe. Yeah.
DB: The wireless operator was Mel Magee. And these, these were the two gunners.
DK: So the two gunners.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The mid-upper gunner was?
DB: Vic Hewitt.
DK: Vic Hewitt.
DB: Yeah. And Wally Hearn.
DK: Wally Hearn.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That was the rear gunner.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So I only found this the other day.
DK: Wow.
DB: So that was quite interesting.
DK: That’s superb that.
DB: I think, I think it just goes on to all sorts. Well, I think there’s another one here. This is with the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: That’s me there. And this was another part there. This is the —
DK: That’s the Halifax in the background there, isn’t it?
DB: That’s right.
DK: This was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: The Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: I’m just saying this loudly for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: So, and then the, you were at Heavy Conversion Unit for, well I was the lucky one. I had already had experience of the Halifax and they hadn’t you see.
DK: No. So what had they trained on then before?
DB: Well, they were, on Operational Training Unit was on Wellington aircraft.
DK: Right.
DB: And so there was six of them in the Wellington. Training. And I just didn’t go into Wellingtons at all. I went straight on to the, where the flight engineer had to be you see. Yeah.
DK: So was it the Heavy Conversion unit then the first time you actually flew?
DB: Yeah. Yes. And I was flying with, with well the trainee flight engineer people.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And it was quite a hectic course you know because you were then taught how you had to handle the four-engine aircraft. Eight petrol tanks and all the, everything the flight engineer should know basically. So it was, it was quite a course. And then I, the rest had done ordinary flying but they hadn’t flown in a Halifax before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had a trainee. An instructor for the pilot.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But nobody was with me. I was, I was on my own.
DK: You were on your own.
DB: Right from the word go.
DK: So how did you feel then when you had your first take off in a Halifax?
DB: Well, I had done.
DK: Yeah. Done it before. Yeah.
DB: I’d done plenty of flying before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With, with the instructors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so I did, you know but that time well I was I had to know it all, you know. And, and then the first time I flew with the crew I mean the, the rest of them they didn’t know what the flight engineer was for or anything particularly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So that was when we started to form as a complete crew.
DK: Right.
OJ: And was that still when you were eighteen?
DB: Yes. I was. No. I was nineteen.
OJ: So you were nineteen then.
DK: Nineteen now.
DB: Nineteen.
OJ: Flying a plane at nineteen.
DB: No. I was nineteen by then. Yeah. Yeah.
OJ: Gosh.
DK: So your pilot then was quite, for most of the pilots quite a bit older then if he was in his thirties.
DB: Yeah. They called him pop.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was naturally —
DK: The old man of thirty.
DB: Naturally grey haired.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he was, he was a wonderful character. Extremely good and we, you know while we were at Heavy Conversion Unit we learned our business really. What it all meant.
DK: So at Heavy Conversion Unit what were you doing? Were you going on cross country flights?
DB: Oh yes. We were doing day flights. Night flights.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The lot. And even one, one was dropping leaflets over enemy territory. Not, not anything too serious but in the end it counted as our first op.
DK: Right. Right. So your first operation was from the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then of course what happened after we finished at Heavy Conversion Unit which I think it was August ’44 we then went to [pause] well, Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: Which was the 76 Squadron base. Previously 76 Squadron were in [pause] I said the name of the [pause] but it’s a famous —
DK: Linton on Ouse.
DB: Linton on Ouse.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the famous one there was Leonard Cheshire you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we were we were quite a famous Squadron because of him.
DK: You didn’t meet Cheshire there then?
DB: No. But at Holme on Spalding Moor, in the Memorial Gardens there is a special thing for him.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. That’s at Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: No. We never met him because by that time when I was flying he was, he was in the Pathfinder.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Pathfinder Force. And, and of course as you know he was in the crew that dropped the atom bomb.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I think that was what made him do the work he did afterwards. So we then went to the Squadron and in pretty rapid time we, we did our first operation.
DK: Right.
DB: Which I think I —
OJ: One of these.
DK: The logbook.
DB: The logbook.
OJ: That.
DB: That’s the one. I think it was [pause] it was August I think if my memory is right.
[pause]
DB: 17th of August.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And these, these were the sort of —
DK: Right.
DB: Before. And that was our first operation on the 27th —
DK: So is that first op?
DB: So we were there say from the 7th, after about a week.
DK: Is this a week?
DB: No. I’ve, this is when I was just flying as the engineer.
DK: Right.
DB: No crew.
DK: So just for the recording then —
DB: Yeah.
DK: When you were at the Heavy Conversion Unit you were flying Halifax 2s and 5s.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And they were with the Merlin engines.
DB: Yeah. They were.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then we went to the radial engines. So this is when I, my own crew, there’s the Marston Moor.
DK: So just for the recording again.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: It’s 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, you know this is where I was learning my stuff. Second engineer.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Every time. And I flew with those people there. And then this was when I started doing the real, real —
DK: With your crew.
DB: Real. Yeah.
DK: So that’s between the 4th of July ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And the 7th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh, no. Carry on. It’s the 12th. It’s the 12th, the 12th of August.
DB: Right through to that, yeah. We did about sixty one hours one way and another.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: In the Heavy Conversion Unit and they counted that one as an op you see.
DK: So your first operation then was the French coast.
DB: Yeah. 12th of August. Yeah.
DK: A bullseye.
DB: We were dropping leaflets and stuff like that.
DK: So that’s referred to as a bullseye.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: This one.
DB: Yeah. It —
DK: Ok.
DB: And then this is when the real —
DK: Right.
DB: This is when we converted to the Halifax 3 so we had —
DK: With the radial engines.
DB: Yeah. You know, those first parts were basically learning.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With the radial engines.
DK: Did you find much of a difference between the Merlin-engined Halifax and the Bristol Hercules?
DB: No. Not really. The basics were the same as far as the flight engineer was concerned. I mean our main responsibility was looking after the fuel and keeping the balance of the aircraft right. So we were, we were, well I was always pleased. There was always plenty to do. You know.
DK: So that —
DB: Yeah.
DK: So the fuel systems were similar.
DB: In both.
DK: In both aircraft.
DB: Yes. Yeah. It was just the engines that were different.
DK: Yeah.
DB: There has always been an argument that the best aircraft of all was the Lancaster with radial engines. The Lancaster 2.
DK: 2, yeah.
DB: But well I noticed even last night they kept mentioning the Lancaster all the time and, but it’s the, it’s one of those funny things. It was the Spitfire all last night. No mention of the Hurricane, you know.
DK: The Hurricane. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: This always upsets us a little bit.
DK: Yeah. I’m not surprised.
DB: But that’s the way it goes and then —
DK: So you joined 76 Squadron on the 17th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And you’re flying your first operation on 25th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. And that was —
DK: So that was an operation to Watten.
DB: Yeah. That was the, this was the V-1. The V-1 unit.
DK: I’ll spell that for the recording.
DB: That’s in Calais.
DK: That’s W A T T E N.
DB: Yeah. Watten. And, and that was, in fact you’ll notice it was in daylight, which was most unusual and they always say the first one is, is can be fatal. A lot of people went on their first op and this was quite hairy. We, in my diary we saw three aircraft shot down and we were hit by anti-aircraft fire and we lost an engine. So that was a good start, you know. And anyway we survived it and —
DK: So you came back on just three engines.
DB: Three engines. Yeah. And of course when we got back, when you land damaged it’s the pilot and myself with the ground crew and it was quite frightening, you know. What we saw there. But I’ve never forgotten what my pilot said. He said, ‘Well, one thing I’m pleased about is, we all did what we had to do.’ And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was really what crews were all about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so it was a good baptism in a way.
DK: Did you find that because of that danger you kind of bonded then as a crew? If you’re doing your, your part.
DB: Well, it did, it did a lot of good. Yes. I mean we all got to know each other reasonably well but not, not in, not in actual duties like that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, yes it did do a lot of good because it paid off, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And you were saying three planes got shot down. Were you the only ones that came back? Or how many others? How many others went out on that?
DB: Well, we didn’t lose any in our Squadron but there were three we saw shot down.
DK: From other Squadrons.
DB: We had to take evasive action when we lost an engine. Well, I mean it momentrally things aren’t right. You know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And you know I’m, I’m saying to the pilot, ‘Feather the engine,’ and he does what he has to do but of course we’re taking evasive action as well and we found ourselves going over Dunkirk and I think I’ve mentioned that in the diary and we saw another one shot down there and so we were lucky.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We survived it. The first one.
DK: And that was flak that damaged the engine.
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. I mean it was very, I mean they were heavily defended those V-1 sites and this was when it was really at its peak. The V-1s. And we did a lot of, a lot of French flying in those early stages. Yeah.
DK: So, obviously it’s just after D-Day, isn’t it, so?
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So your, so your next operation then was two days later. The 27th of August.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And that was to —
DB: And that was a place called Homburg. Yeah.
DK: Homburg. Homburg.
DB: And again that was a daylight one as well. And then you’re, there are all sorts of things here. There was Le Havre, look. We went there.
DK: So, Le Havre on the 10th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. I’ll just read these out for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So the 10th September Le Havre. 15th of September Kiel.
DB: Yeah. That was the first German one. Yeah.
DK: 20th of September Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 23rd of September Neuss. Near Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah. Near Dusseldorf. Yeah.
DK: Near Dusseldorf. That’s N E U S S.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Then where are we? 25th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then 26th of September Calais again.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite, quite a busy month one way and another. Yeah.
OJ: Can I just take a look at [unclear]
DB: Yeah. And then we go in to sort of October.
DK: Ok.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Can I read those out for the recording?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 7th of October was Kleve. 9th of October — Bochum. 14th of October — Duisburg. 15th October — Wilhelmshaven. 25th of October — Essen. 28th of October — Westkapelle.
DB: Yeah. Its Walcheren Island.
DK: Walcheren Island. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then 30th of October — Cologne.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the 31st of October — Cologne again.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And those, those were all at night then were they?
DB: No. Where it’s in red they were at night.
DK: Oh right. Sorry. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So it was pretty hectic going. And then November.
DK: So, November then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 2nd of November — Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Another back there. 6th of November — Gelsenkirchen. 16th of November — Munster.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 21st of November Sterkrade. S T.
DB: Sterkrade.
DK: Sterkrade.
DB: Yeah.
DK: S T E R K A E E and then 29th of November — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: I’ll get back to those in a moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So what was, what was it like then? Operations actually over Germany?
DB: Well, all, they were always heavy flak. You were lucky if you didn’t get anti-aircraft fire and, of course it always looks a lot worse at night. Although having said that that first operation we did where we lost an engine it wasn’t much fun in daylight when when, when you’re under a lot of pressure. The main problem at night was, I mean I think there was one of those, I think it was one of the Cologne ones where we were the thousand aircraft and the mind boggles. A thousand aircraft over the target in twenty minutes.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know, its —
DK: Could you, could you actually see much at night though from your aircraft?
DB: Well, at night time there were no lights on or anything like that. In daylight sometimes you were supposed to be flying at say twenty thousand feet and sometimes the aircraft couldn’t get up to that. Not necessarily your own. So you could have some below that if the aircraft wasn’t as good as, we were lucky. We had fairly new aircraft. These Halifax 3s. So sometimes we seemed to be above but it was not much fun if they opened the bomb doors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And a lot of that happened of course and hit aircraft below them. So none of the German targets were, were easy, you, you, because the fighter force was pretty engaged at that stage, you know. So there was very seldom. It was either heavy anti-aircraft fire and of course where the fighters were concerned they tend to come up underneath you.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. They were, they were quite good.
DK: Can you recall actually seeing any German fighters?
DB: Oh yeah. We were hit by one. I’d have to look in my diary —
DK: Yeah.
DB: To see which one it was but we, we were attacked by a night, a Junkers 88. In fact, if you go in there.
OJ: Do you want me to have a look with me?
DB: What are we up to?
DK: Up to 29th of November.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. If you —
OJ: That’s December.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. I can’t remember. It’s in the diary.
OJ: November the 18th or was it November the —
DB: Well —
DK: Would it be in the logbook somewhere?
DB: Yeah. It’s in the, no it wouldn’t be in the logbook I don’t think.
DK: [unclear] ok.
OJ: That’s in to November.
DB: If you can —
DB: That’s November 6th
DK: Oh, here we go. It is in the logbook actually. 12th of January 1945. Attacked by Junkers 88.
DB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s when it gets [laughs] Yeah. Well, that’s good I put it in there. Hanover. Yeah. I thought. I said Cologne didn’t I? So that was pretty, pretty you know it was mainly German targets and it was about that time when we, you know a tour of operations was thirty.
DK: Right.
DB: But the weather was so bad and I really genuinely mean that. Terrible the weather was. And we took off sometimes when, when we shouldn’t have done one way and another. And, and we the weather, the weather was so, so bad that what they did instead of doing thirty they brought in a points system. So you had three points for French targets, four points for German targets and because of that instead of doing thirty we ended up doing thirty eight, you see. And this was all because of the bad weather. The replacement crews couldn’t come in. And if you look at the last eight that we did and you’ve got to remember psychologically we’d got away with it —
DK: Yeah.
DB: For the thirty. And this coincided with the Ardennes Offensive and we, that was, you know that was before we’d done thirty. When the Ardennes Offensive was on. We went to a place called St Vith, and it was, we were going to take off on the Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and finally took off on Boxing Day because of thick fog. And we took off in thick fog because we had to go to St Vith. It was so critical. This was when the Germans were —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Getting the upper hand. And it was, it was very heavily defended but it was a daylight as well and we, I think well we saved the day for them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was the railway station we took and they were reinforcing.
DK: Right.
DB: Reinforcing the troops.
DK: And that was to support the American troops on the ground was it?
DB: Well, yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And it was very difficult. And when we got, when we were going back we still couldn’t land at Holme on Spalding Moor because the fog was still thick, and so we got diverted to East Fortune and I always remember it. We’d never been to East Fortune. This is in, in Scotland and I, I remember saying to the pilot, ‘There’s no going around again,’ because it was pretty hairy. We were on, we were, you’re not ever quite empty but it was quite serious. Anyway, he was a good pilot and we landed.
DK: So you were down to your last drop of petrol.
DB: Yeah. And in fact we had thirty gallons left. Which is nothing in a four engine aircraft.
DK: No.
DB: And then we went back and the weather was, was, that would be around Christmas time when we did the St Vith one.
DK: Yeah.
DB: When we had to go. Then we got onto the last date and again it was, it was, the weather was unbelievably bad. And this was when the Russians were asking Bomber Command to help them out and because, you know they were winning but they didn’t have the heavy bomber force and we were, we were attacking troop concentrations and everything else. And the trip we did was a place called [pause – pages turning] Let me just get the page. These were the last eight there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We, we went to, to Böhlen which, we were the diversionary flight for Dresden.
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
DB: And it’s only recently I realised that. So look at that flying time. Eight hours twenty minutes you see.
DK: Eight hours twenty minutes in the air.
DB: Yeah. And so sometimes when you’re the diversionary raid that is to draw the fighters away. But it, I don’t think they were expecting it. The Germans. So in a funny sort of way we, we got away with it. Then if you notice the next night, again to help the Russians, eight hours.
DK: To Chemnitz.
DB: Eight hours five minutes again.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So those last ones, this is, I mean we were on borrowed time in my book. But you know you notice there that there’s the thirty eighth one. So the last two were daylight ones.
DK: Right.
DB: So it’s —
DK: So then just go through them. Böhlen was on the, where are we? That was on the 13th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then Chemnitz on the 14th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the last two. 23rd of February — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 24th February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Near Dortmund. Kamen.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. That was our last one.
DK: Both daylight.
DB: Then. Yeah.
DK: So what was it like flying daylight at that stage?
DB: Well, the last two were daylight. I mean Essen is always a worry because it was very heavily defended etcetera and they weren’t, I mean the Germans were suffering a bit then with, there wasn’t much fighter opposition towards the end. But funnily enough saying that after I finished flying, I don’t know whether this has been mentioned before but I think it was in April our, our Squadron were badly affected. The Luftwaffe made their last, and they followed the bombing, bombing fleet back to bases and quite a few of my friends they were shot down over, over our own ‘drome. And I think in total we lost about twenty aircraft that night but that was the last fling of the Luftwaffe.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They never gave up.
DK: No. No.
DB: Unbelievable really. So that virtually covers the flying part. But the other thing which is relevant is after I finished flying I became an instructor at Operational Training Units.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And this is where it was Wellington aircraft and it was where my crew trained. All of them. And that, that was interesting. And I think it was in 1946 it was my first time I’d ever been to Southampton and I was nominated to be the air sea rescue officer.
DK: Right.
DB: And the course was at Calshot, near here. And it’s something I’ll never forget because it was about a month’s course and of course you realise what you didn’t know when you were flying. But on the, towards the end of the course we were all told we were going to have some very important visitors, and it was McIndoe’s.
DK: Right.
DB: The famous surgeon.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And what he’d arranged is we were all aircrew on this course, and this was part of his mental treatment and we were told, each one had a gorgeous nurse with him, and I think it was a coachload that came. And I’ll never forget it as long as I live. It’s very difficult talking to people who haven’t got a face basically. But they were talking as, as if they because that was his secret. He said, ‘You’re no different now than you were before.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And mentally he’d got them and they were conversing and of course it was very clever, with other aircrew. You know. And it was very upsetting for all of us.
DK: Yeah.
DB: As you can imagine. But that was something which is very relevant to the flying.
DK: Did he —
DB: To experience that.
DK: Until that time then it hadn’t really crossed your mind about what could happen then and the dangers and the fires and whatever.
DB: Well —
OJ: Did you kind of not think about it?
DB: I think it’s it —
OJ: Yeah.
DB: I think its [pause] yeah.
DK: [unclear]
DB: Of course we’d lost, we’d lost crews.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And funnily enough it was only just recently — three aircraft were lost and in three cases they were sharing our billet. The crew.
DK: Right.
DB: And that’s pretty awful you know but you’ve got to remember they weren’t dead. They were missing.
DK: Right.
DB: I know now what’s happened to them but you didn’t know. So it is very difficult to [pause] I think it’s because you think it’s never going to happen to me, but it comes pretty near to it when you’re asked to leave the billet and then they collect all their belongings.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the same night there’s a new crew in.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very very difficult to comprehend that sort of thing.
DK: How did you get on with the new crew when they came in? Did you, was it more difficult to make friends with them then?
DB: Well, no. No. Well, you were just aircrew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And, and I mean they were always in awe of us if, particularly when we’d done about twenty five. They always reckoned if you could get to twenty you stood a chance.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did you find then, did you feel you were more confident then, the more operations you did?
DB: Well, now it’s very, yes you’re more confident as a crew. Yeah. Because you knew each other inside out.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Sort of thing. But I wouldn’t say you were any more confident because it might be your turn.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know. And I always felt sorry for the ones who had done twenty plus and then went missing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That sort of thing. And the worst ones for us were that last eight. And look, look where they were. You know. So that made it worse.
DK: Can I just take you back to, as I say this is the 5th of January 1945.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And this is Hanover and you’re attacked by a Junkers 88.
OJ: That’s Jan 14th.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you’re in Halifax 3 NA218.
DB: Yeah. What date was that?
DK: It was the 5th of January. January 1945.
DB: 5th of January.
OJ: That’s Jan 14 —
DB: Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Hanover. Yeah.
DK: Do you do you want to read it out?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yes, I will do.
DK: Yeah.
DB: “Tonight our target was Hanover. This was a trip on which we were over enemy territory for quite a long while. Everything was ok until we started our run up.” That’s to the target. “A Junkers 88 attacked us from a head on position and slightly below and raked us with machine gun and cannon fire. It was shaky for a minute or so and we were hit but nothing vital had been put out of action. On return we found damage to the wings, fuselage and starboard rudder. In places it was just like a pepper pot. When one shell went right through the starboard inner air intake but by some chance it never hit the propeller. We considered ourselves very lucky as nobody was hurt. The flak was moderate at the target and we dropped our eight and a half thousand pounds of bombs through cloud.” So it, but one remarkable thing was I sat behind the pilot and, and the bullets, we heard them, you know. They were that close. And the pilot was just a slight bullet —
DK: Grazed.
DB: Grazed.
DK: Grazed. Yeah.
DB: So that was how close it was.
DK: Yeah. And that was in his neck.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That was how close it was. But of course we didn’t know that ‘til, in fact he didn’t really know it until we got back that he was bleeding a bit, you know. But that was a bit shaky because again you had to take evasive action and if my memory is right we went down from about twenty something thousand feet to about ten thousand feet taking evasive action. And of course at the end of that you don’t know quite where, where you are and the navigator eventually gave a course and it, it turned out to be a reciprocal course which is easily, easy to do. But fortunately one of the gunners said, ‘I think we’re going the wrong way,’ [laughs] and [pause] it wasn’t a joke at the time.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But we, we successfully, that’s why you know, you rely a hundred percent on your crew and it was all put to right in no time at all. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course I come into my own when, something like, because sometimes what I think it was on that particular one we couldn’t make contact with the rear gunner and that was my job. I was the roaming one, you know.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And had to go. But everything was alright you know. But so it was tricky. Yeah.
DK: So when you can’t hear anything from the rear gunner what do you have to do?
DB: Well, I just go down and I’ve still got, you know I’ve got all my equipment including the intercom and all that and when I, when I got down there I think in in the excitement he’d obviously taken evasive action and his thing had just come out.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. So it was nothing to worry about.
DK: Right.
DB: But it wasn’t easy. I had to go up and down the plane a few times because once we had [pause] well, it could have been quite serious. We, we, you know when the bombs have gone and on this particular one there was one sticking. And that’s again, I have to be the one who goes down to the bomb bays and in this case it wasn’t noticeable at all. And then, also to make certain that all the bombs have gone when you get over the Channel on the way back you open the bomb doors again and, everything all right. The next morning, ‘Will Flying Officer Kerr and Flight Sergeant Beasley report to the commanding officer’s, immediately.’ And we didn’t know what it was for. And this this was when this thousand pound bomb had, was somehow icebound or, or I don’t know what it was. And of course after we’d you know opened the bomb doors and everything else and of course what happens is when you landed at night they don’t open the bomb doors ‘til the morning.
DK: Right.
DB: And the ground crew immediately spotted this.
DK: So the thousand pound bomb was still in the bomb bay the next morning.
DB: Yeah. It was hanging loose.
DK: Loose.
DB: And of course, I mean we, you know you’re not quite on Christian name terms with the commanding officer but he’s a pilot like.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Like an aircrew like yourself and he said, ‘Well, I can’t say you’re inefficient,’ he said, ‘Because you’ve done —’ I think it was about twenty odd ops we’d done. And he said, ‘These things happen.’ But it was a bit disconcerting you know.
DK: So you wouldn’t have known. Well, you didn’t know you were landing with a bomb on board.
DB: Yeah. Well, we landed with a loose con. Yeah. Yeah. Or probably that loosened it but it certainly wasn’t visual to spot it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you visually see the bombs? Was there something you looked down.
DB: Well first of all the bomb bay was open and then you get a pretty good view. You knew where the bombs were.
DK: Right.
DB: Supposed to be. It wasn’t easy. It was quite easy to make a mistake and the saving grace was always opening your bomb doors over the ocean.
DK: So if there were any hung up they’d drop.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They, and we never, we’ll never know to this day what the real story was but we ended up with one loose one in the bomb bay.
DK: I bet that gave the ground crew a bit of a shock the next morning.
DB: Well, they were very nice about it because [laughs] because you know what anybody says the ground crews were unbelievable.
OJ: Did you have —
DB: There’s no other word for it.
OJ: Different ground crew or was it the same one each time?
DB: Oh, it was the same one all the time.
OJ: So you had a really good relationship with them.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And of course when you finished your tour of operations it’s a real, real good booze up. All. Everybody. Yeah.
DK: As, as the flight engineer then did you have to, did you want to know all about the mechanics of the aircraft? So did you talk closely —
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: To the ground crew about what they were doing?
DB: Oh yeah. I had a working knowledge of everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So as they were working on something you would know about it.
DB: Yeah. What happened was if there was something wrong with the aircraft it was the pilot, myself and one of the ground crew who, who went up. You know. You’d see in my logbook it’s quite often that we, when we were having the aircraft tested.
DK: Right.
DB: And no, they, I, I always felt well one of my friends from the Squadron now he was ground crew and they had one night when the, when their, when the plane didn’t come back and he was, he was making the comment, he said ‘We always wonder where it was something we hadn’t done,’ you know. That was the relationship between them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it must be very upsetting.
DK: That must be difficult for him. That —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: He was thinking had you done something wrong.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your, the crew itself did you used to socialise with them at all? Did you?
DB: Oh yes. We went everywhere.
DK: What did you used to do off duty?
DB: There are photographs.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I think in there somewhere where, where we’re all out, I don’t know I think it’s in this one but —
OJ: On the razzle [laughs]
DK: On the razzle [laughs] in pubs and things.
DB: No. But we were, we were socially I don’t think it’s in yeah there’s, there’s where we were fumigating the billet at seventy —
DK: Right.
DB: So, that’s when we first arrived there. And they were nissen huts. I never lived in anything other than nissen huts.
DK: So, what, what were you actually fumigating for then? Because there would be —
DB: Well, because it was a nissen hut which, which was awful.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It looked awful. Yeah.
DK: Nasty bugs in there.
DB: And they were very cold.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah, and so, you know all the crew were —
DK: So there was nasty bugs in there was there?
DB: That’s right. Yeah. You know. There’s where we were out on the river.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: Having a —
DK: So just for the recording its —
DB: Yeah. We all, we all —
DK: You’re off duty at Knaresborough.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And that’s July 1944. So you’re in a boat there are you? A rowing boat.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are you there?
DB: I’d be there somewhere. Unless it was me took the photograph.
DK: The photo.
DB: Oh. There’s me there.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But so we we were always together and —
DK: Can I?
DB: The other remarkable thing about it was we, we and you will probably find this goes on we had six, seven days leave every six weeks.
DK: Right.
DB: When we were flying. And the bomb aimer and the wireless operator they always came to our house. We lived in Welwyn Garden City then, and they always came to our house and my sister was only talking about it the other day. She was fourteen at the time I think, and she said the wireless operator as soon as he came in he’d put his photographs up on the mantlepiece. He said, ‘I’m in a home now,’ you know. And she remembered this, these things very vividly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And my father always enjoyed them turning up because with them being Canadians they had all sorts of goodies. And it was funny. Our crew. It’s most remarkable. Three, three didn’t drink, and four didn’t smoke. Including myself. That was most unusual then, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Most unusual. So my father did very well with cigarettes. Yeah.
DK: So where would you go on your off duty times then? Where did you used to go on your off duty times then?
DB: Well, mainly York.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because York, when we had a stand down it was York where we mainly went to. Sometimes we went to Goole. And Market Weighton was another place near. And the village. The village was quite good at Holme on Spalding Moor. There was a very good pub there. In fact, when we have our reunions we still go there.
DK: You go there. To the same pub.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s still a good pub.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just go through the log book again.
DB: Yeah, by all means.
DK: Just to say. I think we got up to the 31st of October didn’t we?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh no we didn’t we got to November here. So just for the recording again then so just carrying on the 17th of December ’44, Duisburg. 26th of December it’s —
DB: That was, yeah that was the Ardennes Offensive one.
DK: The Ardennes Offensive.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, the 29th of December — Koblenz. 30th of December — Cologne. 1st of January 1945 — Dortmund. 5th of January — Hanover where we know you were attacked.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: By the Junkers 88. So the 14th of January Saarbrucken. I’ll just whizz through these if you don’t mind. 1st of Feb Mainz, 2nd of Feb Wanne-Eickle.
DB: Wanne-Eickle. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Bonn. That’s a well-known one.
DK: Yeah. 4th of Feb — Bonn. 7th of Feb — Goch. 13th of Feb —
DB: That’s a long one.
DK: Böhlen.
DB: Yeah.
DB: Böhlen near Leipzig.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In support of the Dresden raid.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 14th of Feb Chemnitz. 20th of Feb near Dusseldorf. 23rd Of Feb — Essen. 24th Of Feb Kamen, and that was the last.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The thirty eighth.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And so, and that’s total flying here. Total. So operational flying hours. That’s your total flying.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, well that’s seventy nine hours five minutes daylight, and a hundred and twenty two forty night time. That’s a total two hundred and one hours forty five minutes.
DB: That’s pretty, pretty good.
DK: In thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah. It was quite funny.
DK: Just put that down for the recording.
DB: I’ve never looked at the [pause ] my wife and myself we, we had, in the rubber business we were, and we were going of all place to a rubber conference in Essen.
DK: Right.
DB: And on the way there we, we stopped at a place called Munster. And I [pause] and the cathedral there was badly damaged and they had an arrangement with the Coventry one.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB: And I said to my wife that I was flying at that time, and do you know that was the first time I’d looked in my logbook. I fact, I had job to find it. Yeah. And I was on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The Munster raid there and it, it was, that was I had been to Germany on business but I’d not been to where I’d been.
DK: On [unclear] yeah. Yeah.
DB: Well, I went to Cologne.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they were the main. They were the difficult ones.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Cologne. Essen. Well, they were all difficult but you remembered that you, if Essen came up on the board you weren’t very happy to go there because it was heavily defended you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So how did that make you feel then? You were going to Germany on business.
DB: Well, I —
DK: Is it something that was in the back of your mind at the time when you were there?
DB: No. I think the worst was over. You know. When I went, it could have been almost twelve months after the war ended when I I’m talking about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: In fact it could have been longer than that, and things were almost normal back in Germany by then. It was, it was probably later than what —
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It would have been. It would be in the 1980s. Well, that’s a long time.
DK: A long time afterwards. Yeah.
DB: After the war you see. So things were getting back to normal. But I, I was, you do get brainwashed you know. You hated the Germans and I very much disliked the Japanese because one of the neighbours where we lived in Welwyn Garden City he came back and well just looking at him was enough. Terrible. And but they were brainwashed as well, weren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
DB: So were the Nazis, so, and you can still see it really.
DB2: If I can just intervene a minute.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: We went to the church in in Munster. Or part of the Cathedral. And part of it had been bombed. Was it the entrance? Entrance lobby that had been bombed?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DB2: And [pause]
DB: Yeah. That was Munster was it? Yeah. I’ve mentioned that.
DB2: Yes. Well, it’s on my mind. Munster.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DB2: A university town.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB2: For two reasons. But it’s a university town and the Cathedral had been bombed.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Part of it.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: And over the, you know a sign had been put up, “May we forgive each other as He forgives us all.” He.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: The capital H.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: Forgives us all.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Which I thought was rather beautiful.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
DB2: And the, the students, the university students were some of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen. Men and women. They were supreme examples of the human race.
DB: Hitler Youth.
DB2: And yes.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: They were obviously the start.
DB: That’s right. I’d forgotten that. Yeah.
DB2: The start. The start of another of Hitler’s dreams you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Yes.
DB: Well, at the end of the war when the war was ending we were warned that the, the main if if you crashed or whatever happened you, if you were picked up by the Luftwaffe you were alright. If you were picked up by the Gestapo you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And if you were picked up by the Hitler Youth you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They were absolutely brain washed, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And they were fighting right to the end. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just ask just very briefly what would a raid actually involve? When you got up in the morning what sort of procedures did you go through?
DB: Well, first of all you were warned that we were flying.
DK: Operations were on.
DB: That operation was on. And you didn’t know where you were going of course. And then you, in other words you had you had to be aware that that evening or whatever daylight whatever it was you were flying so you took the suitable precautions and then you were called for briefing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And we had separate briefings. All, we went to the engineer’s department. The navigation department. We never knew where we were going but we all, and the gunners we were told what the bomb load was and everything else, but we never knew the target until we actually went into the actual briefing. And then sometimes it was, and none of them were good news but some were better than others [laughs] you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So that was basically the procedure.
DK: Yeah. And then you went out to your aircraft at that point.
DB: Oh yes. You went out to your aircraft and of course it [pause] there was a very good article. A book just written. Been written for the, you know with this anniversary.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And he, in the book it says that in the aircraft the main people who were working all the time were the pilot, the flight engineer and the navigator.
DK: Is that the Patrick Bishop book?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And I’d never looked at it that way but I was glad because I thought well I was occupied most of the time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I was. The only time I wasn’t occupied was when we were over the target and I was up in the astrodome. But you know all the petrol was right.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Alright, when we lost an engine that gets a bit difficult. But —
DK: Yeah. Was that, on the Halifax I’m not too sure. Whereabouts are you in relation to the pilot?
DB: Yeah. I’m sitting right behind him.
DK: Right behind him. Right.
DB: And the idea behind that and this was the, normally if I’d have been in a Lancaster all the time I’d be sitting next to the pilot you see. But it was very clever in the Lanc, in the Halifax. I was sitting immediately behind him. And the bomb aimer assisted him on take-off, you know. And then there was a clear entrance all the way down the aircraft so that if anything went wrong the crews could get out much easier than they could in the Lancaster, you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It annoyed me a bit last night. I don’t whether you watched.
DK: I did. Yes.
DB: The programme.
DK: Yes.
DB: It annoys me every time. It was Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No mention of the Halifax.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then it went on to Spitfire. No nothing on the Hurricane. And then it went on to, no mention of a Wellington aircraft.
DK: No. No.
DB: Which was a very critical one.
DK: And then when you looking on later our next door neighbour here he flew —
DK: Do you want to just —
DB: And he flew, he flew Victors. Next door. No mention of the Victor. The Vulcan bomber.
DK: Really?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Is that a neighbour who flew Victors then?
DB: One of my neighbours. Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. My next door neighbour here.
DK: Oh right.
DB: This is, you know after.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he flew in just as awkward circumstances and it’s always the same. I mean, I’ve nothing against the Lancaster but funny enough it’s been proven that the Halifax was a much more versatile aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I mean it served on Coastal Command. It took paratroopers.
DK: Pulled gliders.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it even dropped off spies in various places.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, and, there was in fact there was an article the other day about the Halifax where one crew they, they were right out in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere and they attacked this U-boat and sunk it, but the U-boat also put the Halifax down and they were, six of them got out and it was somebody local here as it turned out.
DK: Oh right.
DB: They, six of them were in the dinghy for eight days and survived. And how they [pause] they were trying to get, get fish. And when I did this course you know on this air sea rescue the thing, the last, well one of the last days we were there we were in the Solent and they put us in a dinghy at 8 o’clock in the morning. This was in March. And left us. And we were there ‘til it went dark. So that was one day, and then the air sea rescue boat came out and picked us up. And that was enough for me.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It was enough. I thought to myself how can, but of course you’ve no choice have you if your shot down. Yeah.
DK: I noticed that the TV programme last night didn’t even mention Coastal Command, did it?
DB: No. It didn’t.
DK: And the U-boats that were attacked and all the rest of it.
DB: That’s right. No. It was, it was a good programme but not —
DK: Yeah. The usual suspects.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The Spitfire, the Lancaster and the Vulcan.
DB: And of course the, the thing that annoys us most of all was, was, they had to mention Dresden. You know. That’s automatic. Particularly with the BBC, you know. And that’s unfair as well. And in fact one of the things I did for a friend of mine he, he, he was talking about Dresden and etcetera and the last magazine that came out from Bomber Command was the truth about Dresden. I don’t know whether you’ve read —
DK: Yeah.
DB: The last Bomber Command. And I’d written about the last eight for this friend of mine. And of course we were on that. On the raid indirectly. On the thing.
DK: Yeah. On a diversionary.
DB: And I think this article said they first of all claimed it was three hundred and fifty thousand were killed and in the end, I mean it’s it was a terrible number but it was twenty five thousand, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But all these do-gooders they don’t understand do they?
DK: No.
DB: But what I like was the Dambusters pilot, err bomb aimer who’s the only one left now.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What’s his name?
DK: Johnny Johnson.
DB: Johnny Johnson. Yeah. His article. He was, he’s fed up with it. I don’t know whether he was on the raid.
DK: Yes. I’ve met him a few times.
DB: Yeah. Well, he always says, ‘Were you there?’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course they never were. ‘Did you know the circumstances at the time?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well, keep your bloody mouth shut.’ You know. And, and I thought well I couldn’t put it better myself.
DK: Sums it up doesn’t it?
DB: Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well that’s great. Just one final question. I think you’ve really answered it there but all these years later how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command?
DB: Well, I’m glad I did what I did. You know. I don’t think I’d want to do anything else.
DK: No.
DB: At all. And I did what I wanted to do which was to serve in Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So I’ve no regrets at all about it.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
DB: Well, we did up to a point. In fact, I found, found a letter from the navigator and the wireless operator but with I think the answer is that you want to forget the war when it ends. And the first time I ever thought about it was, it was in the 1980s I think it was, and we’d, we had a place in Spain. In fact, we’ve still got it but we, we were on our way back and we stopped at a hotel. We came in at Plymouth and we stopped in this hotel and there was a fella there who, he had the aircrew [pause] what did they call, they called it the Aircrew Association you see. And I said ‘What’s all that?’ And he, he said, ‘Well, the Aircrew Association’s just been formed.’ And this was in the 1980s you see.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And that was the first time it had ever registered. And I said, ‘Well. I was in the aircrews,’ and I said, ‘How do I apply to get in to the Aircrew Association?’ You see. So he told me how to do it. And they kept saying he was too young that fella [laughs] A nice compliment. So, but anyway I wrote and thanked him so he knew it was genuine, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they check you out at the Air Ministry. So and, and so I joined the Aircrew Association and then not long afterwards I got a phone call again saying, ‘We’re now forming the Squadron Association.’
DK: Right.
DB: And that was how the 76 Squadron Association, and this was in the 1980s. So it’s only resurfaced since that.
DK: After then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Did you leave the RAF soon after the war then?
DB: Yeah. I left in 1947.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And funnily enough I think I said in what we talked I ended up in Swinderby. That was the last station I was on. And in the Operational Training Unit there.
DK: Right.
DB: So can’t be much nearer to Lincoln can it?
DK: No.
DB: Than that. Yeah. So I know I know Lincoln quite quite well. So I I was thinking of staying in the RAF because I was invited, invited to because anyway the remarkable thing was I’d also heard that the Halifax had been converted. I forget what they called it. The Hastings or something like this, and it, it was commercial flying. And all they needed was a pilot and, and navigator and, and first engineer.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Like a second pilot I would have been. So I applied for this job and he said, ‘You’ve got all the qualifications,’ he said, ‘But we can’t appoint you.’ So I said, ‘Why is that?’ He said, ‘You’re not old enough.’ And you had, you had to be twenty four then.
DK: So how old were you at the time?
DB: Twenty two.
DK: So you were twenty two. You’d flown thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In Halifaxes.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And how many hours?
DK: Yeah. Well just operational over two hundred and one hours.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And they wouldn’t let you fly the civilian version.
DB: Yeah. They were most embarrassed.
DK: Right.
DB: But that was the rule. The ruling at the time. And funny enough, well I ended up alright anyway but if if I’d have flown with them I’d have eventually ended up with BOAC.
DK: So you could have carried on.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Flying with the airlines.
DB: Funnily enough you know when the Squadron Associations were formed one of my best friends who was in the same flight as I was he knew my pilot extremely well and he went on that, and I told him. And he said, he said, ‘I only just made it, Doug,’ as well. You had to be twenty four. Yeah. Unbelievable.
DK: Absolutely.
DB: Yeah. And I’ve never forgotten that. So I could have carried on flying but I went to the accountancy work.
DK: I think it was the Halton. The civilian version.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: The civilian version of the Halifax.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite interesting to be. So —
DK: Bonkers isn’t it?
DB: You talk more about it now than, I mean from 1940, well when I came out let’s say 1950 to 1980 you never really really talked about it. I was in the RAF Association but the only thing I remember there was they did the Dambuster film. 1953. And that was a story in itself really. One of my friends there, all you had to be was in 617 Squadron you see and he didn’t serve on the Dambusters raid but he was in 617 Squadron, and we had another fella who was a member and he said he was on 617 Squadron, you see. So again you had to do it through the Air Ministry and all this.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And this fella who was the chairman at the time he said, ‘We’ve got a problem, Doug,’ he said, ‘This other fella. He’s never even been in the RAF.
DK: Oh.
DB: So,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to help me out when he comes in.’ So he duly turned up, and this Harry, Harry Nutall his name was, he said, ‘Have you had your invitation yet to the premier of the Dambusters film?’ ‘No. No,’ he said, ‘I can’t understand it.’ So he said, ‘Well, let me tell you something,’ he said, ‘You’re not going to get an invitation. You’ve never been in the RAF.’ And we never saw him again. And it just shows that some —
DK: Yes.
DB: I think they kid themselves to believe it.
DK: Yeah. Walter Mitties. Walter Mitties they’re called.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And that was the only time really it came to life. Because after that again it all went back.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But now it’s, I mean you know the Bomber Command Memorial in London.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Is quite something isn’t it?
DK: Have you, did you get to the unveiling of that?
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Well, all the family came to that.
DK: Yeah. I was at that.
DB: That was a memorable moment that. Yeah.
DB2: You couldn’t get him away.
DB: That was quite something wasn’t it?
DB2: Yes.
DB: Yes.
DK: So what are your feelings on the new Memorial then?
DB: Well, I think it’s going to be good. I’m looking forward to seeing it but I’ve made up my mind as well that, you know at one time we, we weren’t going to go to the official one and now I’ve got the feeling well I should go you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
DB: Sort of thing. But I want to go again because this time it’s more important because that Memorial must, must be quite something. To see all those names on.
DK: It is. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very emotional I should think. Yeah. And funnily enough one of my, one of my, well best pal, in fact I’ve got his, you know looking through this stuff. He flew when it was much more dangerous than I was. He was on the Nuremburg raid.
DK: Right.
DB: And he survived. He survived that and he went to Ceylon afterwards. It just says, “Ceylon Air Force,” and I’ve just found a letter from him where it was dated September the something 1945, and then there’s a note on there. Went missing in October that year. And I am concerned that his name goes on this board.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because I’ve got his name, rank and number. He was a warrant officer like I was you know.
DK: So that was, what year was that then?
DB: ’45 when he went missing.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. But he’d served a full tour. Yeah.
DK: But the war had ended though presumably.
DB: Well, yes it had because he was obviously sent to the Far East.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: To carry on there. So he’d started there but he just went I don’t know where.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I never got the detail.
DK: I know this is a bit of an issue at the moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because those on the Memorial are those that served with Bomber Command within the UK.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Those that went to the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And even the Middle East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included. If that’s where they were.
DB: Yeah. I read that article about that.
DK: Even though they might have served in the UK. I know we’re trying to get around that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Not get around it. That’s the wrong phrase. But to include them.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They want to include those that were in both the Middle East flying bombers. And Italy. And then the Far East.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So at some point, all being well he should appear on there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But not, unfortunately not at the moment.
DB: No.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. because he was serving in the Far East you see.
DK: Can you —
DB: Because we were, we were —
DK: Can you remember his name?
DB: Yeah. I’ve got his, I’ve got his —
OJ: Is it in the office?
DB: Can you just.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Look on the desk in there Tavie. You’ll see a letter in there from him.
DK: Cool.
DB: And his name rank and number is all on there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was a warrant officer like I was. He finished his tour of operations. He did the Nuremberg raid so he, he was always about six months to a year ahead of me.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And he —
DK: They went —
DB: There’s a letter from him which is dated September ’45 and then I heard in October.
DK: Right.
DB: He went.
OJ: He knows exactly what he’s talking about.
DB: His number is on, on here. Everything. Yeah. That’s, I think that’s my, that’s his writing.
DK: Right.
DB: And I think that’s my sister’s writing, but I’ll have to find out. But I think here is his, yeah his full rank and number are on there you see.
DK: Oh right. So —
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s warrant officer JE Topple.
DB: Topple yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember what JE stood for?
DB: John. John Topple.
DK: So, he’s, for the recorder he is Warrant Officer John E Topple.
DB: Yeah.
DK: T O P P L E.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Service number 1874884. And he was with 99 Squadron in Ceylon.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he’d done a full tour of operations before.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. In the UK.
DK: He went missing out there.
DB: Yeah. But you know he was on when it was at its worst.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: So I feel I his mother and my sister were only talking about it the other day. She always thought he’d knock on the door some time, you know. Yeah. But so I don’t know the circumstances but —
DK: No. But he went missing in September 45. Or October.
DB: Yeah. Went missing October the 7th 1945. So —
DK: Right.
DB: I don’t know what he was doing out there particularly.
DK: 99 Squadron then were flying the Liberators out there.
DB: Oh, were they?
DK: So he was on the four engine bombers.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So they stayed in the Far East for quite some time after the war.
DB: Did they? Yeah. Yeah. He was still active service. Well, I was still really until 1947 really. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: That’s even more of an issue actually because it’s actually someone on bombers in the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: After the war has ended.
DB: Yeah. But —
DK: Officially. Though still on active service. Yeah.
DB: Yeah, but he served in. I forget what squadron he was on in the UK.
DK: Right.
DB: But he did a full tour. He did his thirty ops anyway. Yeah.
DK: Well, it’s something, certainly something we need to look into.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But I feel it’s my duty to, you know. You know.
DK: I know this is you know the Memorial round there and the names on there it is expanding.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because a lot of the records only showed those who died on operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: While the aircraft was in flight.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Some of those who died when came back.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included.
DB: No. I know that.
DK: So, that’s why some records say fifty five thousand.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But our records are showing fifty six thousand.
DB: Yeah.
DK: It’s increasing.
DB: Yeah. I think in our book which is, you know there’s a 76 Squadron book. We’ve got, we’ve got everything in there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I know we were about seven hundred. Over seven hundred casualties.
DK: And that’s one Squadron.
DB: One Squadron.
OJ: That’s scary.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. We’ll press on.
DB: Quite a lot of detail as well.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it’s been good for me to go through everything.
DK: Excellent. It’s been great for me. I’m rather conscious of how long we’ve been but thanks very much for that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Just for the recording can I just have your name.
OJ: Yeah. I’m Octavia Jackman.
DK: And your grandmother’s name?
OJ: Doreen Beasley.
DK: That’s excellent.
DB: Oh you’re still there.
OJ: I’m still there.
DK: Ok. Well, thanks very much for that. I’ll switch the recording off now.
DB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DK: So that’s completion of a tour of 76 Squadron. February 1945.
DB: Yeah. Well, that [pause]
DK: So who’s, do you remember who that is there?
DB: Yeah. That’s the, that’s the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That’s the wireless operator. Pilot. Rear gunner and myself. I don’t know where the other two are on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But I don’t know where that photograph is now.
DK: Right.
DM: With the —
DK: With the ground crew.
DB: Wait a minute.
OJ: Which one?
DB: I had it’s it’s I did I did find it. Is this some old photographs?
OJ: That’s your whole envelope of photographs. And you’ve got —
DB: Yeah. I think. I think [pause] No. That, that’s 76 Squadron, you know dinners, and all that sort of thing. But there is one somewhere of, of all the ground crew as well.
DK: Yes. It’s unfortunate it’s not in the album isn’t it?
DB: Oh, wait a minute. I’ll tell you where it is. It’s in my other room.
OJ: Do you want me to go up?
DB: It’s in there isn’t it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Doug Beasley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABeasleyDG180326
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:21:34 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
At the start of the war, Doug Beasley left school at 16 to start work. Initially a member of the Air Training Corps, he was sent for aircrew selection when he became 18. There was a 12-month wait to enlist as a pilot, so he opted to become a flight engineer. He joined Number 3 Initial Training Wing in Torquay, after spending three weeks at Lord’s Cricket Ground, in October 1943. Many of his fellow intake were ex-police officers, older as they were not released from the police until they were 30 years old. After six weeks he was posted to RAF St Athan for basic training as a flight engineer on Halifaxes, then to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor. It was here that he was formed in to a flight crew when they transferred from their Operational Training Unit. At this stage they were flying the Halifax II and V. It was with this unit that he flew his first operation, a leaflet dropping operation over France on 12th August 1944. He joined 76 Squadron at RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor flying the Halifax III. He describes in detail many of his operations, mainly over Germany. One in particular occurred in January 1945 when his aircraft was attacked by a Ju 88 night fighter. Though struck by many bullets and cannon shells nothing vital was damaged though the pilot’s neck was grazed by a bullet. After completing his tour of operations, 38 rather than the normal 30, he became an instructor with an operational flying unit flying Wellingtons. In 1946 he became the Air Sea Rescue officer attending a course at RAF Calshot. He left the RAF in 1947 to return to civilian life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Torquay
England--Devon
England--London
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
1944-08-12
1945-01
1946
1947
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
1652 HCU
76 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Marston Moor
RAF St Athan
RAF Torquay
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/705/9285/PBegbieD1701.2.jpg
18a01cc7d4dd62e0e87065d6139e966d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/705/9285/ABegbieD170113.2.mp3
c8433c7d5b6db55d084acc1c6d2fe5e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Begbie, Doug
D Begbie
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Doug Begbie. He flew operations as an air gunner with 76 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
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Identifier
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Begbie, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I'll just introduce myself. It’s David Kavanagh from the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Doug Begbie on the 13th of January 2017. I'll just put that down there and if I keep looking over I'm not being rude. I'm just making sure the tape's still working.
DB: Okay.
DK: You mentioned there that you used to live in Lincoln. Were you born in Lincoln?
DB: No. I was born at Cranwell.
DK: Oh, right. Okay.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And what were you doing immediately before the war?
DB: Before the war?
DK: Yeah.
DB: Well, I was an apprentice chef with my dad.
DK: Okay. And what was your, did your dad have a business then as a —
DB: No. He worked at Cranwell as a civilian chef.
DK: Oh. Actually in the RAF.
DB: Yeah. Catering for the officers.
DK: Okay. So, next question would be then was that the reason that you wanted to join the RAF?
DB: I don't know. Yeah. I've tried to work that one out but what I think perhaps I could, as a baby I could hear aircraft. That must have had some effect on me.
DK: So what year are we talking about then that you first heard the sound of aeroplanes?
DB: Yeah.
DK: In the 1920s would this have been? The 30s?
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, what, can you remember what year you actually joined the RAF?
DB: When I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Must have been 1943, I think. About October.
DK: Okay and were you selected then for Bomber Command at that point?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Okay. And so what was your, your aircrew role then? What did you actually do?
DB: I was a tail gunner.
DK: Okay. And can you remember how your training went? What sort of training did you have before you joined a squadron?
DB: No.
DK: No. Okay. And can you remember which squadron you were with?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: Can you remember which squadrons you were with?
DB: 76.
DK: Right. And flying what type of aircraft?
DB: Yeah.
DK: The Halifax was it?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Okay. And can, can you remember anything specific about the operations you did?
DB: Well, I did thirty two.
DK: Right.
DB: Mostly night raids. Some were daylight
DK: And as a tail gunner what was your job to actually do?
DB: Well, to protect the rear of the aircraft.
DK: Right.
DB: We used to have an evasive action.
DK: Okay.
DB: Which was to corkscrew into the attacking fighter. So because being at the tail end you have to rethink the direction you were flying.
DK: Right. Because you're facing the wrong way.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, you have to say corkscrew starboard or corkscrew port.
DK: Right. So how many times were you attached by enemy aircraft?
DB: How many?
DK: How many times were you attacked by enemy aircraft?
DB: Only a couple of times
DK: So did you actually fire your guns at them?
DK: Only once.
DK: Okay. And can can you tell us a little bit about that?
DB: Well, it was one of their new fighters that they had. A jet-propelled thing. Rocket propelled.
DK: Really?
DB: And both the mid-upper gunner and I fired at it and it exploded.
DK: And, and were you credited with that?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: Were you credited with having shot that down?
DB: I don't know what happened.
DK: Right.
DB: No.
DK: So, what, it must have been a bit of a strange thing to see. A rocket-powered aircraft.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, what was your thoughts as you saw it coming towards you?
DB: Well, we [pause] I'm just trying to think. We, we hadn't, we hadn’t been reported anything like that.
DK: Right.
DB: But we've got some idea that they were trying these things out. So —
DK: So did it come as a bit of a shock to you to suddenly see this rocket powered —
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aircraft.
DB: So we just fired at it and it blew up.
DK: Okay. So I'll finish here now but looking back on your time in Bomber Command how do you feel about it now?
DB: How do I feel about it now? Since that time I've become a Christian.
DK: Okay.
DB: So I consider war is a waste of time. Killing people. We must negotiate things. Talk to people about things.
DK: I think you're right there. Okay. Well, I know you’re going to have a busy day so we can stop it there. But if I can ever come back and speak to you again that would be marvellous.
DB: Okay.
DK: Okay. We'll stop it there. Thank you.
DB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Doug Begbie
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABegbieD170113, PBegbieD1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:06:04 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Doug Begbie was an apprentice chef before he volunteered for the RAF. He trained as a rear gunner and was posted to 76 Squadron. He shot down what sounds like an Me 163.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
Contributor
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Julie Williams
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Halifax
Me 163
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1262/17135/PSmithDA1901.2.jpg
f068e3d6817394db0223c0a31545a439
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1262/17135/ASmithDA190219.2.mp3
2eabbde8694ea974c6013caea6c115c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Douglas Arthur
D A Smith
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Douglas Arthur Smith who flew with 76 and 158 Squadron as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, DA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing, do you like, are you Doug Smith or —
DS: Yes.
DK: Doug Smith at his, Douglas Smith, at his home on the 19th of February 2019. I’ll just make sure that’s working. Ok. If I just put that a bit nearer to you. If, if I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s still working.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So what I wanted to ask you first of all was what were you doing immediately before the war?
DS: Before the war I, I was living in a small village called Bressingham near Diss in Norfolk and I’m the son of an ex-World War One —
DK: Veteran.
DS: Veteran.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Who was also injured during then. And I was born three years after World War One. My family, they’re agricultural people.
DK: Right.
DS: My father was a farmer, and when the war broke out —
DK: I might just come a bit closer to you if that’s ok.
DS: Yeah.
DK: If I move that there. Is it ok if a sit here?
DS: Yeah. Sure.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Sorry. You were saying.
DS: Yeah. As I said I was born the son of a farmer and well, you see the real Depression after the First World War.
DK: Do you know, do you know much about your father? What he did in the First World War?
DS: He, yes he was, he was a soldier that fought in the, on the Somme.
DK: Right.
DS: And unfortunately he got injured with shrapnel and had to be repatriated. And as I said from then on I came on the scene [laughs] and a sister. My sister. And when World War Two broke out. I just fancied I’d like to join the Royal Air Force because all youngsters at that time —
DK: Did your, did your father advise against the Army then, did he?
DS: No. He didn’t have anything. To be quite honest my father, I did all this on my own back.
DK: Oh, right.
DS: I didn’t have any discouragement or any encouragement.
DK: So what, what made you look towards the Air Force then? Was there something that drew you to it?
DS: Well, I think, I think the idea of flying.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I mean flying was in, well it was in it’s the initial stages in them days.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: And I think a lot of youngsters. So I just went down to Norwich and enlisted and, and that’s where I started my career, and that was in 1940.
DK: So —
DS: October.
DK: Right.
DS: 1940.
DK: And how old would you have been then?
DS: Nineteen.
DK: Nineteen.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Right. So, what, what’s your first sort of posting then in the Air Force? What did you do first of all?
DA: Well, first of all —
DK: I mean, presumably were you looking to become a pilot? Did you think or —
DS: Well, in the selection board once you, when I went to Norwich to get enlisted, they took all particulars and I went through various examinations, tests and, and they asked you what your background was. And they then suggested that I became a wireless operator although I would like like everybody else to have been a pilot.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: But I was enlisted as a wireless operator/air gunner.
DK: Right.
DS: And then from then on just went through the basic foot bashing stage of the —
DK: Yeah. Is that something you took to was it? Or was it something you liked? Or —
DS: Well, it was quite new to someone who lived in the country and it all came, well I was surprised. But that was intriguing actually really.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember where it was you did you square bashing?
DS: Yes. I went to Blackpool.
DK: Right.
DS: And done all the square bashing there, and after that there was a period when I had to wait for the training to do with the flying side because the square bashing was just a preliminary.
DK: So, presumably this would have been your first time away from home then was it?
DS: That was my first time away from home.
DK: Yeah.
DS: We were billeted in private hotels and in hotel accommodation sort of thing. Then once we’d finished that we had, we all, everybody had to be put somewhere and, while they were waiting for the air training side of the, of the Air Force and I went to, I was stationed at Norwich for a while. Attached to the signals to get some idea because they were [pause] what I had to face eventually because we got with, operating Morse Code and all that sort of thing. And then from then on I was, I went to an Air Gunnery School at Evanton in Scotland to learn all about the machine gunning. What the aircraft would be.
DK: So what was the training like then on the machine guns? Did you, were you taking them apart or —
DS: Well, you had to take them to pieces and —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Know how they operated if you got stoppages and just mainly getting to know. I think that they were, the guns were Brownings I think and just get general knowledge of what you actually might need to handle.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Although my main job really finished up as a wireless operator.
DK: Right.
DS: I never had anything further to do with the gunnery side apart from taking the course. The course in gunnery which everybody had to do. The first aircraft I think I flew was a, was a Botha.
DK: Oh right.
DS: Which was —
DK: Yeah.
DA: A lot of people haven’t even heard of today.
DK: I’ve heard of them. What was that like then? Your first flight in one of these old things.
DS: Well, as I say that was one of the first flights I did. I couldn’t compare that one with any other.
DK: No.
DS: Back then when I first got there. Looking back they were very daunting and they were [laughs] they were not over safe either.
DK: No.
DS: And then once I completed the gunnery course —
DK: Did you, did you do any air to air firing?
DS: Yes.
DK: At that point?
DS: Oh yes.
DK: At the drogues.
DS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Firing on drogues and I’ve got it all recorded in my logbook there. And, and then after that [pause] let me think. Get this right.
DK: It would have been for the wireless operations.
DA: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DA: I think I went back to Blackpool again because that was where I had to learn Morse Code and —
DK: Right.
DS: And, and that’s, once again we were billeted in the hotel and guest houses, and our training, the training when we were learning was in a tram shed in Blackpool, and they were all set out for all the pupils to get to know what Morse Code was about. And you had, once you completed your course you had, you had to maintain eighteen words a minute.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Once you passed that. And then from there —
DK: Is it, was Morse Code something you found you could pick up easily was it or —
DS: Well, for some. It wasn’t easy. But was interesting and same old double Dutch to start with but I got there in the end.
DK: Right.
DS: Which most of us did. Some of them failed.
DK: And how many words a minute did you have to do?
DS: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen.
DS: Eighteen words a minute. Yeah.
DK: Right.
DS: And, and then after that I went to Abingdon where I met the, met up with the, where we met up with the crew.
DK: Right.
DS: You know. I went there as an individual. You met up and you formed. You formed a crew which my crew was Sergeant Hickman, and —
DK: And this would have been the Operational Training Unit.
DS: That’s an operational, yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: That’s an OTU. An Operational Training Unit and that was, that was on Wellingtons.
DK: So, how did you think that worked with you meeting up with your crew. Just putting everybody together in a hangar sort of thing? Did that, that work out well?
DS: Yes. Well, of course we were, they were all, we were all strangers. We were all experiencing the same, the same problem, you know. Meeting someone for the first time.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But, but you became like a little family in the end because you social, you socialised.
DK: Socialised. Yeah.
DS: Socialised [laughs] rather together and you more or less lived together and as I said you became a family and we were, once we went through all the process of the OTU which meant —
DK: If I just go back to the OTU. What did you think of the Wellingtons then, as an aircraft? Were they —
DS: Well, they were much better than the Botha [laughs] At least that was the [pause] I think the Botha was a, I’m not quite sure if that was a single engine or not, but yeah that was a little step up going to the Wellington but —
DK: And your, your pilots name was?
DS: Sergeant Hickman.
DK: Hickman. Right. Ok. And was he, was he a good pilot?
DS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I think so. He was, as I said they all had to pass to a certain standard so I mean, yeah. Yes. They were. He was, he was quite good and unfortunately later on he bought it as we called, used to say in the Air Force.
DK: So moving on from the OTU then what was, what was your next, next step then?
DS: The next step from the OTU was I went to [pause] to —
DK: Was it 76 Squadron?
DS: 76 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Is it alright if I look at your logbook?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Is that ok?
[pause]
DS: Yeah.
DK: So I just —
DS: To Linton on Ouse. I went to Linton on Ouse.
DK: Right.
DS: The station commander, or at least the squadron commander of 76 Squadron which I joined was Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire who became, eventually became Group Captain Cheshire.
DK: Just for the recording I’m just having a look at your logbook here. It says you were at Number 8 Air Gunnery School.
DS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And then, then it was number 10 Operational Training Unit.
DS: That’s right. Which was at Abingdon.
DK: That was Abingdon.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So that’s mostly all local flying and you’re the wireless operator there.
DS: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Camera gun exercises etcetera.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then just, then it’s, I’ve then got 1658 Conversion Unit.
DS: Yes. That was after we left, oh yes. I got ahead of myself there. We went to Riccall.
DK: Right. Ok.
DS: Yeah, to convert from the Wellington to the Halifax.
DK: I’m just looking on your logbook here. You’ve got the Halifaxes here. The aircraft serial number. It says BB304 and R9434, W1003, W1168 they were quite early Halifaxes, were they?
DS: Well, they, well they must have been. Yes, because that was, they were they were flying with the Merlin engines.
DK: Right.
DS: In those days.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because later on we went on to radials. Hercules.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And —
DK: So, what did you think of the early Halifaxes at the Conversion Unit?
DS: Well, we, we liked them. Well, we thought we were going up from two engines to four engines but yes they were. Yes. We got on very well with them. Yeah.
DK: So, it would have been at the Conversion Unit then that you would have been joined by your flight engineer. Did you get an extra crew member then?
DS: Yeah. I thought we had the flight engineer from the start but —
DK: Oh, ok.
DS: I mean we had the gunners. The navigator and the bomb aimer, and as I said —
DK: Can you, can you still remember their names?
DS: Yeah, I might have to refer to it.
DK: Yeah. Ok. We can, we can go back to that later.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
DS: Well, our rear gunner was Scott. And our navigator was Keene. Bomb aimer was either Pringle or Prangle or —
DK: Yeah.
DS: And, yeah —
DK: So then in looking at your logbook again in April 1943 then you’ve gone to 76 Squadron at Linton on Ouse.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And that’s flying Halifaxes again.
DS: Yes.
DK: And can you remember were they the early Halifaxes again or the later ones?
DS: Yes. They were the early ones.
DK: The Merlin ones.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, I notice all your flying there is with Sergeant Hickman.
DS: Yes.
DK: As your pilot.
DS: Yes.
DK: And so you say the squadron commander then was Leonard Cheshire.
DS: Yes.
DK: Did, did he make much of an impression on you?
DS: Well, we as young recruits saw, we didn’t see a lot of the commander.
DK: Right.
DS: We just, we just, we had a, I think a section commander. A Flight Lieutenant Ince. But no, we didn’t get [pause] I never really got in contact much with Cheshire but —
DK: Do you remember seeing him there though?
DS: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I saw him. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So what was his squadron like? Was it a well-run squadron would you say?
DS: Yeah. Yeah. He [pause] he, in the early days because he flew the Wellington on operations and apparently he brought one back with a great big hole in the side. They said you could get an Austin 7. Yeah. No. He was [pause] no, he wasn’t a character but he had, he was, and actually in later years he turned religious.
DK: Yes.
DS: That’s another story.
DK: Yeah. So, so his, so your crew then there was no officers on the crew.
DS: No.
DK: No.
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: No. No. Late in, the navigator was made up.
DK: Right.
DS: As a pilot officer later on but all the others were just, you know sergeants. That was the minimum you were was a sergeant if you were flying. And —
DK: So, I’ve got, I’ve got on here then it looks like you joined 76 Squadron quite early in April ’43 and then would this have been your first operation then? To Pilsen.
DS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: So what, what was it like to go on an operation then for the first time? What sort of happened?
DS: It was quite an experience really and it’s something I don’t think anyone other than the ones who were on these raids could really describe what it was really like. I mean, it was just something like out of this world, you know. There was the German searchlights trying to pick you up. I mean, they had a master beam which used to pick you up, and then a series of smaller searchlights would beam, would beam on you and then, then you were, well yes that was nearly fatal because the Germans used to fire up the —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Up the beams and I mean we, fortunately we managed to manoeuvre and get, not get picked up by these master beams but we could see others that were being illuminated with the searchlights and that. Not awful but you could see people, the planes just exploding and, yeah. Yeah, that. But the thing that really amazed you was the, where the bombs and the flares and things were on the towns that we bombed. You could, it was just like a furnace burning. You know, like that. As I said it’s a sight, you can’t describe it to —
DK: No.
DS: To anyone.
DK: Right.
DS: That was, and then of course you had fighters chasing you around. Chasing you. Which were, you had to keep your eye out for and —
DK: Were, you were you ever attacked by a night fighter?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DA: Yes. But as you will see later on we shot down, well, we ourselves shot down two.
DK: Oh, right.
DS: Two Jerry fighters.
DK: So, your first operation then was the 16th of April 1943.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then 20th of April ‘43 you’ve gone to Stettin.
DS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were all —
DK: I’ll just read this out for the —
DS: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Yes. That’s correct.
DK: So, and then 27th of April, Duisburg. Duisburg again on the 12th of May. And on the 13th May, Bochum. I’ll turn that around for you. So, 30th of May, Mönchengladbach.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then Mannheim. 15th of September.
DS: They were with different pilots they were.
DK: Right. Yeah. That’s Troak. I’ll spell that out T R O A K.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So, then Mannheim on the 5th of September. Munich on the 6th of September. So, you’ve gone on two operations. One following the other. Mannheim and then Munich. Then you’ve got another pilot here. Smith.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s the 3rd of October. Kassel. And then the 4th of October. Frankfurt.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So that’s operation number nine then. Yeah. And the tenth op 8th of October to Hanover. And then 22nd Of October, Kassel.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Interesting here. So, the 26th of November 1943 you were in Halifax K. Your pilot is Lemon.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And its ops to Stuttgart and it says, “Emergency landing. Three engines with full bomb load.” Can you —
DS: Yeah.
DK: Recall that?
DS: Yes. I can. We, we had just got airborne and one of the engines packed up. So we called base for instructions and we went, we were told to go out to sea and drop our, our, the bombs because you, it was not known for an aircraft once you’d took off with a full bomb load to have been able to come back and land.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: So, but the pilot was a regular pilot who was in the Air Force before the war.
DK: Oh right. So that was Flight Lieutenant Lemon.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And he, he called back to base, said, ‘Well, I can’t get out. I can’t go to sea. I’m coming back in.’ And we did come back in, but I think what probably he did put on, when he went in to land put a few more revs on.
DK: Yeah.
DS: To compensate. And the next thing we knew they were following up the runway behind us with all the local fire engines.
DK: So you landed with a full bomb load then.
DS: Yes. We had a full bomb load.
DK: So that was quite unusual then.
DS: Yes.
DK: [unclear]
DS: I’ve never known, well it might have happened but as far as I know that had never been known before.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But —
DK: It must have been quite, quite frightening at the time.
DS: Well, it all happened so quick you see because we’d hardly got off the end of the runway and the engine blew up.
DK: I see here the total flying time was actually five minutes isn’t it?
DS: That’s right.
DK: So you’d just done a circuit and then straight back down again.
DS: Yeah. So that was a bit hairy, I can —
DK: Yeah. So then, carrying on from there you’ve got 3rd of December. Leipzig.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And then 7th of January 1944 now. So it just says, “Bombing. Night.” It doesn’t actually say where.
DS: That’s yeah that’s an exercise.
DK: Oh, is that an exercise? Then 20th of January 1944 you’ve got your twelfth operation and it’s to Berlin.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Do you remember travelling to Berlin on that flight?
DS: It was just like another place to us, you know because we were quite keen to go there because that was the, the capital of, you know of Germany when we got there.
DK: And that was with Flying Officer Falgate.
DS: Falgate. Yeah.
DK: Falgate. Yeah. So that operation then was seven hours twenty.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Right. So [pause] and then 21st of, 21st of January 1944, Magdeburg.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And then 28th of January, Berlin again.
DS: Yes.
DK: [unclear] And then you’ve got 27th of May here [unclear] That’s in Belgium isn’t it?
DS: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve landed at Bruntingthorpe.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was there a problem with your aircraft then?
DS: Yeah. Yeah. I think we’d lost pressure somewhere in that. We had to, to, instead of getting back to base we had to make an emergency at Bruntingthorpe.
DK: Carry on then. I’d like to say you’re now in the Halifax 3s. So they’re the ones with the —
DS: With the Hercules.
DK: Hercules engines. So were they a better aircraft to the earlier Halifaxes do you think?
DS: Yeah. Oh yeah. Much better. Not only that they were safer for us because being air cooled radial there was no manifolds on the engines.
DK: Right.
DS: They’re, the Merlin’s had twin exhausts on each engine and at night time they got so hot that they illuminated.
DK: Oh right.
DS: And of course the Germans could —
DK: See them.
DS: I mean, so we were much safer once we got to the radials because the only way we were picked up by the Germans was either by the searchlights or night fighters which was bad enough.
DK: And I notice here your pilot then was Flight Lieutenant Forsyth DFC.
DS: Ah huh.
DK: So that was the 1st of June, Halifax 3 and it’s letter R and it’s off to Cherbourg. And then I see you’ve done operations actually on D-Day. 6th of June. D -Day support operations on both. Well, two operations on 6th of June, in fact, wasn’t there?
DA: Yeah.
DK: Forsyth DFC. St Lô. And you’ve put there invasion front. And then 4th of July there’s your first daylight operation.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So to St Martin. And that’s with Flight Lieutenant Forsyth again. What was it like flying in daylight on the D-Day operations?
DS: We didn’t, we didn’t get any, any opposition from the Jerries at all. That’s, well as I said that was just a hop over the Channel and back, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DS: That was when you were going in to the, in to the heart of Germany when you were going in to the Ruhr Valley and there. I mean Jerry put up about thirty thousand extra ack ack guns when the Battle of the Ruhr was on. That was like hell on earth that was. But —
DK: So, though it was in daylight because it was over France the opposition wasn’t quite as deadly.
DS: No. No.
DK: So 18th of July then ops to, I’ll spell this out it’s A C Q U E T. That’s in France I think, isn’t it?
DA: Yeah.
DK: That’s twenty one.
DA: This guy turned out, after he came out of the, out of the war he was he was my solicitor right up until he died.
DK: Ah.
DA: Yeah.
DK: So, that was flight lieutenant —
DS: Crotch.
DK: Crotch.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Flight Lieutenant Crotch.
DA: Yeah.
DK: So he was your pilot on the —
DA: On that —
DK: 18th of July. And then he became your solicitor post-war then.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. Right up until recently. Until he died.
DK: Oh. So 23rd of July. France again. Then 24th of July Stuttgart. And so this is the 24th of July 1944. The pilot’s Flying Officer Macadam.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Had gone to Stuttgart and I see here it says two enemy fighters destroyed.
DS: Yeah. That was —
DK: What happened there then?
DS: Well, what happened was that we had been previously chased by a couple of Jerry fighters but we managed to, to avoid them because what was the known thing was once a Jerry fighter turned in to attack you, you turned into him.
DK: Right.
DS: So, so anyhow we evaded the first lot and the second ones I don’t think they saw us because we were, I think where they were, they had blind spot. What we used to call a blind spot if you were flying over an aircraft as a pilot and then there’s a plane underneath. I think we must, that must have been a blind spot for it.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Oh well, that’s only what we assumed. And then, we shot down the first one. We didn’t realise that he had a mate with him. You know, flying alongside. But then he came in to, to bring us down but fortunately we managed to get him as well. And that was recorded. That wasn’t just what we said.
DK: Right.
DS: Because what happens once you come back to do a briefing you have to state what you did or saw.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And lots of other aircraft saw these two fighters being shot down so we got it recorded and that’s how that happens to be.
DK: Yeah. So someone else had witnessed it then.
DS: Yeah. Exactly.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Because everything that happens up there has to be logged if you see anything unusual.
DK: And who got them then? Was it both the gunners working together?
DS: Mainly the mid-upper.
DK: Right.
DS: Well, I think they both worked together but being as he was flying over the top he could see further.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Rather than somebody at the tail end.
DK: And can you remember the names of the gunners?
DS: No. I don’t. No.
DK: No. I thought we could check on that.
DS: No. No.
DK: So, do you know what type of aircraft they were that you shot down?
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: I would think, I mean probably, I don’t know for sure but I think probably Junkers 88, I think.
DK: So, they were twin engined aircraft.
DS: Yeah.
DK: You shot down. Oh, right.
DS: As I say we didn’t have time to look —
DK: No.
DS: At them at the end of the day.
DK: So you’re, you’re sat at your radio at the time while all this is going on. What, what’s that like as you’re being, as you’re being attacked by a night fighter?
DS: You still had to, you were always listening out and you don’t make any communications with base.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because of detection, you know. Jerry. So, but we just, we just log what we hear. But naturally we didn’t log the fighters.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because that was, that was on the debriefing that we had to record those things but —
DK: I’ve just noticed here as well that in July 1944 you’d moved squadrons. You’re now with 158 Squadron at Lissett.
DS: Yes.
DK: So this incident then happened while you were with 158 Squadron.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And it’s, it was Halifax R and it was Flying Officer McAdam.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: See what happened previously was when I was flying with Hickman earlier I got tonsilitis.
DK: Right.
DS: And they wouldn’t let me fly so I had to go in the sick bay. They flew off to Hanover and they never come back and that’s where, that’s where their —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Why their names are on your —
DK: Right.
DS: Memorial.
DK: If can just go back to that then. That happened when you were with 76 Squadron.
DS: Yes. Because that’s, yeah —
DK: Yeah.
DS: When I was with Hickman.
DK: Yeah. And can, can you remember when that was that that happened?
DS: It was —
DK: Are they on here?
DS: Yeah, I think that’s —
DK: Can I take a look?
DS: Yeah.
DK: OK. Oh, this is the [pause] yeah. So, they were in Halifax DK 6, DK266 MP-O.
DS: Yeah. That would be it, I expect. Yeah.
DK: And this was on the 28th of September 1943.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. During that period. Within a few weeks of that I lost my wife and child at the same time.
DK: Oh dear.
DS: So I had [pause] they talk about people having trauma these days but I mean I had to suffer the loss of my whole crew and then shortly after that, in only a matter of weeks I lost my wife and kid as well. A child.
DK: I’m very sorry to hear that.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Oh dear.
DS: So, that was, as I say that.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But you see then once you get split up from your, from a regular crew you were, you were like what we used to call an odd bod. If somebody was short of a radio operator they picked on you. And then of course by that, doing that you never had a, you never had a full crew again. You just flew when they were short of somebody.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And then of course all the accolades for when the others got medals and DFCs and DFMs and whatever. You know, such as myself we were, not that I worried about the medal but just glad to be here but you just missed out on any gallantry medals.
DK: If you don’t mind I’ll just go back a little bit because you, you when all this happened you were with 76 Squadron at Holme on Spalding Moor.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So you did an operation on [pause] where are we?
DS: There must be a period of breaks somewhere.
DK: There is. Yes. I think it’s here isn’t it because they’re saying your crew was lost on the 28th of September 1943 and that was to Hanover. So you’ve flown on an operation to Munich with Falgate and then he was lost after that then.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh dear. And that was because you had the tonsilitis.
DS: Tonsilitis, yeah. Actually, I think I was in hospital for about a couple of weeks.
DK: And just to clarify this for the recording then this was that the crew was lost on The 28th of September 1943 on a trip to Hanover. Do you know what, were they shot down then or was it —
DS: Yes. They were shot, yeah.
DK: Did you ever find out anything more about what had happened to them?
DS: Not. That they were shot down. I think it says in there where they were shot down and I wouldn’t have known that without what you’ve got there.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I just knew that they’d been shot down. I didn’t even know. I was going to contact the war cemeteries and see really where they were.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But —
DK: It’s got the Rheinberg War Cemetery.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Oh dear. So you’ve, after that terrible incident then you’ve, you have actually carried on flying haven’t you?
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Almost with different pilots.
DS: Yeah. That probably was a good thing in a way, I suppose.
DK: Can you, can you remember Falgate’s first name?
DS: Les.
DK: Les Falgate.
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right. So going forward again, you’ve then gone to 158 Squadron.
DS: That’s right. I think that was out of Lisset. I think that was.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I think. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 158 Squadron.
DS: It was Lissett. Yeah.
DK: And we’ve covered the, the incident when the night fighters were shot down. So then you’ve got three more operations here in August 1944. So these were daylight ones presumably.
DS: Yeah. They were.
DK: So, the 24th of August, Brest. 27th of August, Homburg. 31st of August somewhere in France. That’s not twenty eight operations and then September 1944, on the 9th 10th and 11th you went to Le Havre three times.
DS: Yeah. That’s correct.
DK: In daylight. The 15th of September to Kiel. And then 23rd of September 1944 to Dusseldorf.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So that was your —
DS: That.
DK: Thirty third operation.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was that, was that the total you did then?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember much about Le Havre in daylight on those three operations.
DS: No. No. No. As I say two in one day I think they wanted.
DK: Yeah. On the 9th 10th 11th of September. In the same Halifax as well. LV940.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And the same pilot, Flight Lieutenant New.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So could you just speak a little bit about what your role was as, as the wireless operator? What you were. What you did on the operations.
DS: Well, on the operations the radio operator you had, you didn’t do [pause] you were mainly there to listen out for information from base. You never had to, you were not allowed to contact base because of the detection side of it.
DK: Yeah.
DS: You may listen though and made notes of what, anything that was going on within the plane. If the navigator says something or whatever. And mainly look out for enemy fighters. I had a window where I sat.
DK: Because in the Halifax whereabouts are you? You’re kind of sat under the pilot aren’t you? Or —
DS: Here [pause] Yeah.
DK: Right.
DS: Right there.
DK: So you were in the nose there.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Sort of below, below the pilot.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Pilot up there and then bomb aimer. Air gunner and then bomb aimer down there.
DS: Yeah.
[pause]
DK: So you did thirty three operations in total then and then it says here you were then screened.
DS: Yeah. Well, that means that then I went on to instructing.
DK: And this was at 19 OTU at Kinloss.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So you were back on the Wellingtons again.
DS: Yeah [laughs]
DK: What was that like? Going back to the Wellingtons.
DS: Not very good [laughs]
DK: So you were there for quite some time then weren’t you? Right through to 1945 on Wellingtons again [pause] So, right through to February 1945 you were training then. Oh, and carried on until March. There’s quite a few flights in Wellingtons by the looks of it.
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Training flights. So, you finished then March 1945.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was that when you finished in the Air Force then or —
DS: No, I finished flying in 1945.
DK: Right.
DS: And I became redundant and we had to, we had to muster to some other part of the Air Force, and I was asked what my background was and that. I said I was, spent my few months or early years as a, working in a garage as a car maintenance and so I said I wouldn’t mind going back into transport or something like that. And then they, there was a position came up at a place called Shepherds Grove which is near Bury St Edmunds as a transport officer. So I took over the airfield as a transport officer.
DK: Yeah.
DA: And I was there. Well, the base closed. I closed the base down while I was there because that was no longer needed because the war had finished and that’s where I finished and got demobbed.
DK: So, how do you look back on your time in the Air Force now? All these years later?
DS: It was a great experience. It really was. At the time you just took things for granted and we never saw any fear. I mean if our names weren’t up to fly on a certain night we were disappointed. I mean there was no such thing as saying, ‘I’m glad I’m not going.’ We were so keen. We didn’t, we didn’t want to miss anything, and I’ve never, I’ve never ever heard of anyone saying that they were, they may have inwardly, never scared.
DK: Yeah.
DS: No. There was one of our biggest moans ever since was the accolades going along pre-war is all about Halifax, no all about Lancasters.
DK: Lancasters. Yes. Yes.
DS: The poor Halifax never gets mentioned.
DK: Yeah.
DS: If there’s a fly past.
DK: It’s always a Lancaster. It’s like the Spitfire, isn’t it?
DS: Exactly.
DK: The Hurricane gets ignored.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So you liked the Halifaxes then as an aircraft.
DS: Yeah. Well, as I say we didn’t have a lot of choice really but —
DK: Did you ever fly in a Lancaster then?
DS: No. No.
DK: No. So, you can’t really compare the two.
DS: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
DS: The only advantage that they said the Lancaster could fly about another couple of thousand feet higher than us which the higher you could get the further away you were from the enemy —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Ack ack guns, because the point was they could get you wherever you went. But of course the fighters used to chase us back. Even follow us right back to the base. There had been certain, it had been known where our own aircraft were shot down over, over on the, on coming in to land on our own bases.
DK: Yeah. And —
DS: It’s unbelievable really when you look back.
DK: Yeah. How did you feel when you got back from an operation then?
DS: We always used to look forward to coming back because of the spread. It was the only time you got a decent meal [laughs] We used to have egg and bacon and as much as you wanted.
DK: And —
DS: You had to do the debriefing once you’d landed and you went back to be debriefed and that’s like if anyone saw anything unusual. That’s when the question of the fighters came in you see.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And anything that happens you had to make a note of. I mean I remember coming back [pause] that was when the first Doodlebugs went to London.
DK: Oh right.
DS: We saw this object illuminated. We knew it wasn’t an aircraft because we didn’t know what it was.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And all things like that we had to make a note of and then, then the radio operator on various operations we had to drop what they called Windows.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Which is a —
DK: It reflects the radar.
DS: A series of like tin foil to, to obliterate the German detection.
DK: Was that one of your roles?
DS: Yes.
DK: As wireless operator.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what did you do? Did you feed it down a tube?
DS: There was a chute.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DS: And we were told every, whatever —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Seconds or minutes, I can’t remember exactly you had to drop and that because everybody did the same thing because I mean lots of the raids we went on I mean they were four and five hundred bomber raids. I mean and usually however many there were, there was in the raid, we were, we bombed out like, half of you would be bombing at a certain time.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And then three minutes later the second wave.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Of course we relied on the Pathfinders to drop the flares because it’s the Pathfinders that gave us the exact target.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I mean today things are different now I mean with radar and —
DK: It’s all computerised.
DS: Computerised, you could pick out a needle.
DK: Not quite the same is it?
DS: No. But yeah.
DK: So, when you were with your crew then did you socialise together?
DS: Yes.
DK: What did you used to do on your time off then?
DS: Well, mainly we used to go to the local bar. Not on the base.
DK: No.
DS: We used to, we were stationed in Yorkshire and —
DK: Can you remember the names of the pubs?
DS: Yeah. We used to go to Betty’s Bar.
DK: Betty’s Bar.
DS: In York.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I know it.
DS: And as I know the place, I think today they’ve got some inscriptions even in Betty’s Bar today.
DK: Is your name there?
DS: I don’t think my name is there [laughs]
DK: Probably not [laughs] You’ll have to go there and put it in.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes we used to go and have a few beers. And then anyone who got newly commissioned they used to take his hat.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And pour a pint of beer in it to christen it or something like that. Yes.
DK: So, it must have been a great loss then when your crew went missing.
DS: Oh yeah. Yes. I mean we used to spend so much time together.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: And —
DK: So after that you were just crewed up with wherever you were necessary. You didn’t join another —
DS: No.
DK: Another crew as such.
DS: I flew with Falgate for a while and actually I’ve come, been in contact with some distant relatives of Falgate. It’s, you know since the war and one of the young girl of this family got a lot of information from the 76 Squadron Association and —
DK: So, the crew. I’ve, I’ve just slightly misunderstood something. The crew that went missing was Hickman’s.
DS: Hickman.
DK: Hickman. And what was his first name? Hickman’s first name. Would it be in here? I’ve slightly got confused with the names of the pilots.
DS: Yes.
DK: Sorry about that.
DS: Yes, well that was I flew with several pilots.
DK: Yeah. So, it was Hickman who went missing on the 28th of September 1943 in Halifax DK266 MP-O.
DS: Is his, is his name up there?
DK: That’s George Scott. Was he one of the other crews?
DS: He was a rear gunner.
DK: Rear gunner. Ok. So it was, sorry I slightly misunderstood that. It was Hickman that went missing.
DS: Yes.
DK: To Hanover you say.
DS: That’s right.
DK: On the 28th of September 1943.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So, it was after that you were flying with Falgate. Les Falgate.
DS: Yes.
DK: Etcetera. Yeah. Slightly confused there. So, have you got the names of your crew somewhere or were they, did you say they were written down somewhere? That’s only got the one crew. G Scott.
DS: They should all be there shouldn’t they?
DK: I can, I can check after. That’s ok.
DS: I thought they were all on there.
DK: Yeah. Just the one there.
[pause]
DA: Yeah.
[pause – pages turning]
DK: Because your last operation with Hickman was, or the last time you flew with him was 16th of May 1943. So it must have been soon after that you got the —
DS: Yeah.
DK: Tonsilitis. Yeah. And then as I say he went missing in the September.
DS: Yeah. That must be it. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, thanks for that. I’m just going to pause this for a moment and have a look at your photos there.
[recording paused]
DK: Just put this on again. So you’ve got a photo of your Halifax in the background there and your crew. Can you name the crew there?
DS: That was, that was Falgate.
DK: Falgate. He’s in the middle. Yeah.
DS: I can’t. I don’t know. I can’t remember them. The crew.
DK: Right. Are you there?
DS: Yeah. There.
DK: Ah you’re on the end. Ok. So you’re on the right and Falgate is in the centre.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: At the back. Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, you’ve got another photo here. That’s, that’s your ground crew as well presumably.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s Falgate there again, is it? He’s in the middle isn’t he?
DS: Yeah. Yes. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And I think that’s me there.
DK: And that’s you there.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Third from, third from the right. So, this is one of the earlier Halifaxes with the Merlin engines.
DS: Yeah. I think it is.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Oh, yes. It is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Douglas Arthur Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASmithDA190219, PSmithDA1901
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:55:43 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas Smith grew up in Bressingham, Norfolk. He joined the Royal Air Force in October 1940, at the age of nineteen, and trained as a wireless operator. He joined a crew on Wellingtons at No 10 Operational Training Unit, RAF Abingdon, before converting to Halifaxes at 1658 Conversion Unit, RAF Riccall. In April 1943, the crew joined 76 Squadron, based at RAF Linton on Ouse. He describes their first operation to Germany, the danger of searchlights, and visiting Betty’s Bar in York during their downtime. He recounts a trauma that occurred on the 28th of September 1943, when his crew, piloted by Sergeant Hickman, was shot down on an operation to Hannover, while Smith was grounded due to tonsillitis. He continued operations by filling in for crews lacking a wireless operator, including two trips in support of D-Day, and one emergency landing back at base with a full bomb load. In July 1944, Smith moved to 158 Squadron, RAF Lisset, and completed operations to Le Havre, Dusseldorf, and Kiel. He describes his role as the wireless operator, releasing Window through a chute, and an operation to Stuttgart where the crew shot down two night fighters. After completing thirty-three operations, he instructed at 19 Operational Training Unit, RAF Kinloss, before working as a transport officer at RAF Shepherds Grove until demobilisation.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--York
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
France
France--Le Havre
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10
1943-04-16
1943-09-28
1944-07
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
158 Squadron
1658 HCU
19 OTU
76 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lissett
RAF Riccall
RAF Shepherds Grove
searchlight
shot down
training
Wellington
Window
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1197/11770/PWiddowsonFE1801.2.jpg
7aa5a49f8a57f0aa46b301fea31ba807
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1197/11770/AWiddowsonFE180731.1.mp3
2a989177d4b38c12f0c5bc2e992b9be8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Widdowson, Eileen
Frances Eileen Widdowson
F E Widdowson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Eileen Widdowson (b. 1932). She grew up in Peterborough and remembers being bombed.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Widdowson, FE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs Eileen Widdowson on the 31st of July 2018 at her home. It is 2018, isn’t it?
EW: It is 2018. Yes.
DK: I was going to stop. I was going to say nineteen. Anyway, I’ll leave that on there.
EW: On there. Ok. So I’ll just talk to you.
DK: Just talk normally.
EW: Yeah.
DK: It’s catching you there. So if I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s —
EW: It’s still going.
DK: It’s still going. Yeah. So —
EW: Well, I was born —
DK: Yeah.
EW: In 1932. In Peterborough actually. I have a sister who is two years older than me which makes her eighty eight and we’re both still going strong at the moment.
DK: Good.
EW: And so of course living at Peterborough my father was, he died when I was seventeen months old.
DK: Oh no.
EW: And so my mother came to live in Grantham because she had an older brother here who had a shop and I think she, she didn’t get on with my aunt over there so I think she escaped really more than anything. And of course my grandmother had a bungalow at Snettisham. On the beach in Norfolk. On the day that the war was declared we were there and panic set in I think. I mean I wasn’t really aware what was going on then but in hindsight it was panic because I think everyone thought it’s going to start now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know. And so everybody packed up and we all came home and I can remember walking up our road and a lot of the people were out on the outside on the front. You know, talking about what was going to happen.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And all the rest of it. And I can remember people talking about bombs and things to my mother and I thought well I don’t know what a bomb is, you know so I suppose it’s nothing really. You know. It’s just something. And I just forgot about it. I don’t remember being scared or anything because obviously I didn’t know what a bomb was going to do.
DK: Yeah.
EW: However, we soon found out because my mother lived right almost one street away from the railway station here which is of course is the main line north to south. And so, and my school was at the top of our road which was, you went down some steps to the, to the station so it was very close to, to the station. And the first thing I can remember about going to school after the war was declared was that the teachers said we had to ask our parents if they had any net curtains. Old net curtains. And I thought well I wonder what they want old net curtains for. You know. But I soon found out because we had to cut them into squares and they pasted them on the windows.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Of the school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: To stop the blast.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But of course then of course what happens to the kids when there’s a raid because there were no shelters. Nothing like that at the time. So when, the teacher said, ‘When the siren goes you will have to get under your desks.’ And we thought oh great. That’s really safe. You know. We never thought about how ridiculous it was.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know, you just didn’t.
DK: It was, did it seem looking back on it as a child a bit of an adventure then?
EW: Well, it did then.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because we hadn’t really had any sign of bombing or anything in the first year because it was just you know —
DK: The Phoney War.
EW: Phoney War. Yes. And then she said that when the siren used to go and then you had time to get, hopefully to get to a shelter but then the three pips would go and that meant that the planes were overhead.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And you just had to hope that they weren’t going to hit you.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because it was too late then to run for a shelter.
DK: Just for the recording can you remember the name of your school?
EW: Yes. It was Spitalgate School.
DK: Spitalgate School. Right.
EW: And it was up near St John’s Church, which —
DK: Ok.
EW: Is dead opposite, almost opposite the railway station.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You just went down some steps.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And the first sort of thing that I can remember about doing all this was that eventually the siren did go and unfortunately [laughs] it was a raid and so she said we all had to go into the cloakroom and put coats over our heads. And I mean it isn’t until you grow up when you realise how ridiculous these things were.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Because all that you wouldn’t see was the bullets coming through the roof.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he, so that was my first experience of what was going to happen. And fortunately they, they didn’t hit the school.
DK: Can you, do you remember seeing the aircraft themselves?
EW: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: This was the story that I told this young lady. That’s why she —
DK: Yeah.
EW: She thought you’d like to know. Because of the raids, the severity of some of the raids because as you know Grantham was surrounded by airfields.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And also we had a big munition factory at Marcos. British Marcos. And they were making ammunition and guns and all sorts of things.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And it, obviously it was a good place to get rid of, if you like.
DK: Yeah.
EW: As far as the Germans were concerned. But having said that we, the teachers had said to the parents if there is a raid and it’s a real, real one, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Not just a make believe one. They said, ‘Would you come to the school and fetch your children if you live near enough to get there.’ Kind of before the three pips went, you know. Well, of course we lived, we had to come up my street here and go through another street called Fletcher Street and then turn and go up Norton Street to the school. But what had happened was that in the old days they used to deliver beer at the pubs on a horse and dray. Well, the horses were big shire horses and so what they used to do they used to tether the Shire horse at the back of the cart so it couldn’t bolt. But the horse was dancing around with the noise and pulled the cart across the street. So my mother in the meantime had come to fetch me and we were running down and that’s what scared me really. My mother never ran anywhere —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because she was forty four before she had me so she was quite an elderly mother and I thought I wonder why she’s running. And of course then I turned around and I looked at this plane and it was dive bombing down Norton Street. And I could see him. I looked into his eyes. He’d got goggles and a leather helmet and it was one of the black planes with the white, you know.
DK: Swastikas.
EW: Thing on. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. The iron cross.
EW: Well. The iron cross. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. The black cross.
EW: And I sort of looked up at him and I don’t, I can’t remember being terrified but I thought, I wonder why he’s coming down here you know. It was a child’s perception.
DK: Yes.
EW: Of not knowing what could happen to you. But in, after this.
DK: I don’t suppose you —
EW: I realised.
DK: I don’t suppose you realised at the time as a child the real danger you were in.
EW: No. No. Because afterwards, you know many years afterwards I heard that some of the more Nazi orientated pilots would shoot people running in —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Especially in London, to the, to the shelters. And so I suppose basically my mum and I were very lucky but it was, so he came dive bombing down and of course we couldn’t get through the small street that we had to go through to get home because this horse had pulled the cart across.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And so my mother pulled me up and she pushed me into a, as we, ginnels or what passageways to somebody’s house and she went and knocked on the door and this lady let us in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But after that I’m not sure quite where he went but I think he had, he had machine gunned the school roof.
DK: Right.
EW: And why I don’t know because he could have seen there were playgrounds laid out. So why he didn’t shoot me and my mum I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But he could have done if he’d wanted to. And it was, it was all sort of over in a flash, you know and he went up to bomb Marcos I think as well because he did drop a bomb in the station goods yard. The Germans never actually hit the target here.
DK: Right.
EW: They always missed. Fortunately for some people but unfortunate for others. And once he’d gone my mum waited until they’d untethered this horse because I think I’d rather face a German plane than a horse’s hoof like that size.
DK: No.
EW: Because they’re very, very big.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Those horses. And anyhow, we managed to get home and afterwards you know I’ve thought about it so many times and I’ve thought well at least I was lucky that I’m still here.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I said to all my children if it hadn’t have been that that pilot had probably got a conscience I wouldn’t have been here and neither would any of my children.
DK: Could you hear his guns firing at all? Or —
EW: We heard them in the school when we were in school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But you see my mother came to fetch me.
DK: Yeah. But not during this incident then.
EW: Not. No.
DK: No.
EW: Because he was dive bombing down the street. It all happened in a moment really.
DK: In a flash. Yeah.
EW: And I just turned. I don’t know whether it’s because I looked at him I don’t know.
DK: He just didn’t. Didn’t fire.
EW: He just didn’t and so he went up to Marcos. Now, I can’t —
DK: So Marcos is the armaments —
EW: Marcos is the armaments factory.
DK: Do you know whereabouts that was?
EW: Yes. It’s on Springfield Road.
Dk: Springfield Road, right.
EW: But it’s all be knocked down now.
DK: Ok.
EW: It’s a housing estate.
DK: Right. Ok.
EW: As all. But it was strange because you always knew when they were testing the guns they’d made.
DK: Right.
EW: Because they had gun tunnels.
DK: Oh right.
EW: Underneath the ground. And every day you could hear this rat a tat, rat a tat and they were testing the guns under there.
DK: Right.
EW: Now, whether the underground things are still there I don’t know but it’s definitely all gone.
DK: Yeah. A housing estate now.
EW: Yes. It’s all gone. Well, the reason it’s gone is because Steel World took it, which was a Swedish firm.
DK: Right.
EW: And unfortunately when we had the Argentinian War for the Falklands.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They found out that that firm had been selling arms to Argentina.
DK: Argentina. Right.
EW: So it was our guns made in Grantham that was killing our soldiers. Our people. Yes.
DK: The Argentines were using — yes.
EW: So that was closed down and you know finished. So that was the end of that sort of thing.
DK: So the housing estate then is, is fairly recent. Since the eighties.
EW: Yes. Yes. Oh absolutely.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yes. Very. I should think the houses there are about eight or nine years old.
DK: Oh right. Right. So, fairly recent.
EW: Yeah. They’re not. Yes, fairly recent.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And, because Marcos was a place where all the women met their husbands.
DK: Right.
EW: Because there was a huge dance hall there and everybody, all the kids went from here. The youngsters you know they met their husbands and a lot of the girls married in to the American side of things.
DK: Yeah.
EW: When they came over.
DK: So Marcos then was a big employer here.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. And Dennis Kendall who was a member of parliament he owned it but as I say he sold it. Well, he left and of course after the war it was sold but it was just sad that these guns were killing our RAF lads.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But as I say that was one incident and —
DK: Just going back to that incident then with this plane flying down the street.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember anything that your mother said when you got home? Was it, was there anything?
EW: Well —
DK: Was she a bit shaken?
EW: Very shaken. But my mother was a Victorian lady. She was born in 1888 believe it or not.
DK: Right.
EW: And she was always I didn’t realise she was an old lady until I grew a bit older and I realised that you know my mother wasn’t the same age as the mum’s meeting the children from the school at the same time.
EW: Right.
DK: But having said that you know she, but she did have a really bad nervous breakdown after the war ended.
DK: Really.
EW: Because, partly because you if you had a spare bedroom or you could all bunk in to one bed you had to let the room go because they were bringing people in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: To the munition factory from all over the country. To work in the munition factory at Marcos. And of course auxiliary firemen. They were brought in as well to, you know. And so because my mother had to, we all had to sleep three of us to a bed because she had to give up her front bedroom.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For, and we had two or three girls came from up north. Newcastle way. They were working at British Marcos. And then after they left we had a gentleman from Nottingham. He was in the Auxiliary Fire Service.
DK: Right.
EW: And then he got posted somewhere else. And then we had two soldiers billeted for a short time. One was a Scottish lad and the other one was for Newcastle. And I don’t know what health and safety would have felt about all this because as children they had to muster at St Johns Church Hall which was at the top of the steps down to the railway station just where our school was. And that’s where they had to muster. And of course they all had guns and things. They were going off to France or somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they used to let us carry their guns for them [laughs] I can, I can always remember trudging up the road with this gun on my shoulder, you know. And I think, you know health and safety would have a fit now wouldn’t they?
DK: They probably would.
EW: And they gave us sixpence each you see.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For carrying the guns.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But sadly, after the war ended Mac, who was the chappie from Newcastle he became a long distance lorry driver and he called in on us one day to tell us that Mac, not Mac the other lad. I can’t remember his name.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But he didn’t make it.
DK: Oh.
EW: He never came back so —
DK: He was killed in Europe then.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. And so that was one thing. But another point was that we used to go out collecting ‘hips. Rosehips. Picking rosehips because you could take them to a central point and they’d give you so much a pint for these. And they used to make rosehip syrup for the babies.
DK: Right.
EW: Because orange juice was unobtainable and of course they needed vitamin C.
DK: Right.
EW: So that was the only way they could do it. So we used to collect those and we also, my sister and I it’s hard to believe now because I don’t think there are any streams around here that are healthy.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But there was one that was kind of. It was up Harlaxton Road which is on the road to Melton Mowbray. And they, there was a stream there and there was watercress growing in it. And my sister and I used to go and pick it and bunch it and sell it for the Red Cross.
DK: Right.
EW: And of course we were all saving for aeroplanes and all sorts. You know. There were big target things on the Guildhall with the picture of a Spitfire. You know, you were making money to buy them.
DK: This was the Spitfire Fund.
EW: Yeah.
DK: The Spitfire Fund. Yeah.
EW: And so those sort of things we did. And collect newspapers. And another thing I remember, I think the worst thing I remember about saving stuff was that we had pigswill bins at the top of the street.
DK: Right.
EW: Well, the stench sometimes was disgusting and they used to come and collect it about every other day you know. And all this waste food went off. I felt sorry for the pigs actually. But I suppose they boiled it down.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But that, that and when the pig swill lorry had been oh God it’s, the smell lingered forever you know in the street. And they did, when the war first started they came around collecting any old aluminium saucepans you’d got or —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And they, I mean St Wulfram’s Church, the big church you know that was all railings all around it and of course they cut all those down. Everybody’s metal gates went.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: All the fences. Everything was melted down, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because really —
DK: Allegedly.
EW: We were totally, yes. Supposedly.
DK: Because they said it was the wrong type of metal apparently. So —
EW: Oh. Did they?
DK: Allegedly, it’s gone, it’s down a mine in Wales.
EW: Oh, is it. Oh, my God.
DK: All the saucepans and things.
EW: What a shame.
DK: Tell the story again.
EW: Yeah. Well, I don’t know about that, I suppose that’s —
DK: I don’t know if it’s true or not.
EW: Well, lots don’t know a lot of things happen like that because they didn’t really know.
DK: Yeah. It was a propaganda thing, wasn’t it?
EW: Yes.
DK: To make you feel involved.
EW: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I can remember the man coming around and teaching you how to work at a stirrup pump.
DK: Right.
EW: You know they used to put one end in the bucket of water.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And you sort of pump this thing up and down and it was supposed to, I don’t think it would have put anything out but —
DK: No. Can you remember much of the damage around Grantham?
EW: Oh, I can, I’ve got a book actually.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Which you can see.
DK: Oh right. That’s Grantham’s war years.
EW: It’s very difficult to get it now. It’s out of print.
DK: So, just for the recording it’s, “Grantham. The War Years. 1939 -45.”
EW: That’s right.
DK: “A pictorial insight.” by Malcolm G Knapp.
EW: Yes.
DK: Right.
EW: If I see another one I’ll buy one and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Donate it to them. Yeah.
DK: I’d like a copy of that. I’ll look out for it myself.
EW: Yes.
DK: See if I can get a hold, get a hold of a copy.
EW: You mostly find them in charity shops.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because when people die, people take all their belongings in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And that’s [pause] but as I say oh and I can, another thing I remember is Gracie Fields came —
DK: Oh yeah.
EW: To Grantham. And she was, there was on the High Street we had a huge water tank which was a reserve water tank in case they hit the water mains and that was on one side of the town green and we, I used to have to go that way to go to school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, my friend and I we knew that she was coming and she, she put her head out of a hairdresser’s window across the road from the Guildhall and she was singing out of the window. And of course my friend and I, we were enthralled you know because Gracie Field was famous then you know. And we stopped and listened and of course when we got to school we were very late so we got detention. But it was worth it. And also —
DK: So there’s a Wings for Victory.
EW: That’s the one. Yes. Yes. That’s —
DK: Yeah [a picture there] Yes.
EW: Yes. That’s and that’s the Guildhall there. Yeah.
DK: So there’s quite, quite a few pictures of the damage here, isn’t there?
EW: Oh yes.
DK: The railway line in particular.
EW: Yes. Now that was another thing. The railway line. When this bomb, this plane dropped a bomb he was trying to hit the railway lines but he missed and hit the station goods yard. The bomb didn’t go off. Which is probably as well for our school otherwise —
DK: Yeah.
EW: I think it would have been very badly damaged. And needless to say they moved the school out later on. Somewhere a bit more safe.
DK: Yeah. Horses there.
EW: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yes. They used to deliver everything with horse and dray.
DK: Yeah. Sorry. You were saying.
EW: Yes. When he dropped the bomb in this good yard as I say it didn’t go off and the next day at school, oh the chappie went in. That’s right. The chappie went in to, bomb disposal chappie went in to detonate, you know to take the —
DK: To defuse it.
EW: Defuse it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And sadly it did go off and killed him. And so of course the next time around at school in the playground the boys had all got, you know the little match boxes you used to get? The Bryant and May match boxes. They cut a hole through the bottom and the tray and they put a piece of cotton wool inside it and they pricked their finger to get some blood. And then they would put their finger, their thumb through this hole in to this cotton wool.
DK: Right.
EW: And then they were going around the playground saying, ‘Do you want to have a look what we found?’ You know. And it was pretty grim but I mean that’s what we did.
DK: A thumb.
EW: And I said, you know, ‘Where did you find that?’ ‘Oh, in the station goods yard.’ You know. And I mean it was a bit macabre but that’s how you lived. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
EW: As you got older, as I got older I got I was more scared because I knew what was happening. And sadly they tried to bomb St Vincent’s. I expect you’ve heard of St Vincent’s.
DK: Yes. The 5 Group Headquarters.
EW: Yes. That’s right. Well, they, they missed. Which is perhaps a good thing for for that but they hit Stuart Street and they brought most of Stuart Street down.
DK: Right.
EW: And also they hit a shelter dead on and all of the people in the shelter were killed.
DK: Oh dear.
EW: That was awful.
DK: Can you remember, you mentioned that Grantham was a centre of the RAF bases. Can you remember much about that RAF activity over and around Grantham?
EW: Yes. The RAF have always sort of been a bit more special I always think because people respect the RAF.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Quite a lot. Because it’s difficult even now to get into the Royal Air Force. You’ve got to be a bit more intelligent than most.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But having said that it was basically more the Americans that caused the bother.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: Than, than the RAF. I mean we used to see a lot of the RAF but they were never around for that long because they were on airfields outside of Grantham.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But having said that I think the Americans did cause a lot of trouble, because they came over here and they still had this apartheid attitude.
DK: Yes.
EW: To the black Americans.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I’m afraid a lot of the pubs in Grantham had masses of fights and things going on between the black and the white Americans.
DK: Really?
EW: Yeah. And the white Americans were horrible to them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Even in a war they were horrible to them. And I mean if a girl in Grantham went out with a black American well it was terrible you know. These, the white Americans called them sluts and all sorts.
DK: Oh dear.
EW: But quite a lot of, of Grantham girls married American.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Airmen and soldiers.
DK: Did you personally know any that married Americans?
EW: I didn’t know them. No.
DK: No.
EW: Because I was too, really too young —
DK: Too young. Yeah.
EW: To fraternise with them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know.
DK: You didn’t have any neighbours that that were —
EW: Oh yeah. There was a lady. A girl, a girl called, I think her name was Eileen Dawson. She married a GI.
DK: Right.
EW: And went to America.
DK: And went to America. As a GI bride.
EW: Yes, and another, well another friend of mine, her, she was, she was, she was slightly older than me and what used to happen with some of the young girls in Grantham the young eighteen, nineteen, twenty, they had, laid buses on to take them on a Saturday night to Alconbury which was an American air base.
DK: Yes.
EW: And so this friend of mine, Jean she married a GI chappie. Well, I didn’t know at the time that he was a native Indian.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she had a daughter with him and afterwards when the war was over she went over there to live. Presumably to live with him and when she got over to America he lived on a Reservation.
DK: Oh.
EW: And of course you can imagine that life on a Reservation was not very good.
DK: Yes. That must have been a bit of a cultural shock.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So of course she came back again and they were divorced. And her daughter was born stone deaf.
DK: Right.
EW: And, but she looks exactly like an Indian squaw. She does honestly. She’s a lovely girl but she does look exactly like an Indian squaw. But having said that —
DK: And is she still alive?
EW: Yes.
DK: Still here?
EW: Yes. She’s still alive. Yeah. They’re both still alive. Yes.
DK: And still living in Grantham, are they?
EW: Yes.
DK: Oh right.
EW: Well, they live, I think they lived in Gonerby which is just a little village at the top of the hill.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: It’s not far away and, but do you remember when Cilla Black used to do that, “Surprise. Surprise” show.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Well, this girl this daughter was on it.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And they arranged for her because she’d never met her father, you see. She arranged, they arranged for her to go to America to meet her father.
DK: Right.
EW: However, she only stayed about a week instead of a fortnight because she didn’t like him.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And she didn’t like the, she didn’t like where he lived.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So she came back again to Grantham but that was a shame really because you know they thought they were doing a really good thing sending her there.
DK: It’s often the way though isn’t it?
EW: It is. Very often. Yes.
DK: No doubt she had a picture of her father and it just wasn’t the same.
EW: Absolutely. And it wasn’t the same.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, of course it was a few years afterwards because she was, she must have been in her twenties when she went over.
DK: Right.
EW: But I don’t think she’s ever married. The girl. The daughter. But yes, I mean, and a lot and another girl who lived up near to my school she married a GI. But not all of them found it what it, what they, I mean because the lads used to embroider stories about they came from this, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they had that, and their parents were rich. And when they got their it was a different story. So a lot of them did come back but I mean some of them couldn’t afford to come back.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because obviously they went very cheaply over there and, you know once they were married they used to get married here but a lot of the American lads used to spend time with Sheardowns, the farmers. They are sort of, well Peter Sheardown, they had a big farm sort of around the Bottesford area and they used to have, entertain these Americans and give them Sunday lunches and things you know. And even when, sometimes even now some of the American soldiers, oh they’re getting scarce now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because they’re all dying off but the ones that can come over and they visit them. Because I work for Cancer Research, I have done for thirty years and Mrs Sheardown works with me. So you know she was telling me all about the, her mother in law used to have all these Americans there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And feed them up because a lot of them were lonely obviously and they sort of came to England. It must have been a culture shock for some of them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because England didn’t have what they’d got. And we were short of food.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
EW: But I know sort of talking about food I, before the war I used to love pineapples. Pineapple chunks. And of course you couldn’t get them because they were bombing the, or submarining you know torpedoing the ships. And I went to this birthday party and I saw on the table this bowl which I thought was pineapple chunks. And so I took a really big bowl full because I thought oh I haven’t seen any pineapple chunks for years. And I took this big lot. Well, it was disgusting. She’d cut a marrow into cubes and put yellow colouring and pineapple flavouring in it.
DK: Oh dear. Oh dear.
EW: And it was absolutely ghastly. And that taught me a lesson I’ll tell you. Not to, not to be deceived about what you were eating in the war. It was very difficult because things weren’t quite what they seemed.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And it I had to eat it because I daren’t leave it because I’d been so greedy. Served me right. Taught me a lesson. Just check what you’re eating. But —
DK: Can you remember, going back to the Air Force again about the bombing raids of our planes going out on —
EW: Oh yes. I, I because we used to go to bed obviously and in the middle of the night mostly the siren would go and my mum used get us to go in the shelter because they built all the brick shelters down the side of, one side of the road.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they went because our street was a hill.
DK: Right.
EW: And so they went down in you know rotation. One a bit higher than the other. And they all smelled of wet concrete and whatever else.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Somebody had been in there. And they weren’t, and they weren’t very pleasant. But I don’t know why looking back now and knowing what happened to that other shelter with all the people in it I think you were safer staying in your own house really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. And can you remember our planes at all when they were flying out to Germany?
EW: Oh yes. Oh definitely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And we always recognised the German planes.
DK: Right.
EW: Because I, they used to, they didn’t sound like our planes.
DK: Right.
EW: They used to chug chug chug.
DK: Yeah.
EW: That was the sort of noise they made. And you always knew when it was a German plane and when they were our planes, and I, we used to watch them sometimes going over and you’d sort of, ‘Please go over. Please don’t turn around and come back,’ you know, because you knew they were one a, they had a specific target.
DK: Target. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know. To hit.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But there was another story that I was told. My cousin lived in London and next door to her was a Jewish couple. And when my two oldest girl were little I used to go and stay with my cousin and the children used to go around and see who they used to call Auntie Ackerman. And her name, her husband’s name was Ackerman.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he was obviously a Jewish man. But he was with I don’t know whether it was MI6 or MI5. Something.
DK: Oh right.
EW: The ones that used to do the spy catching.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he said that he caught loads of spies in Grantham.
DK: Really?
EW: Because there was so much going on here with all the airfields and they knew that that raid was being planned at St Vincent’s.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So that’s how they tried. You know, they tried but unfortunately they missed. Well, fortunately for the pilots.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They missed St Vincent’s and hit Stuart Street and brought it down. It was dreadful. And killed all the people in the shelter.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And as I say they never managed to hit the railway lines.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Although they tried. But of course after this particular incident in the school, the school was moved to I think they went to a sort of an old house that was a big house.
DK: Right.
EW: That was —
DK: Requisitioned.
EW: Yes. Requisitioned for them in Grantham. But when, after we had, one night we had a terrible raid and we didn’t have time to get into the shelter because the three pips had gone. And my mother lived in a terraced house on Grantley Street which is as I say was near the station. And we used to, it was before the days when, ordinary people didn’t have refrigerators.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And she used to have a cellar and on the, as you walked down the steps of the cellar there was a long slab. A cold slab.
DK: Yes.
EW: As they used to call it. But it was solid brick until you got to the bottom and then there was a kind of alcove like that taken out of the wall and my mum used to keep the saucepans in there originally. And so she put some blankets in there and some pillows and she shoved us in there. And when I think about it now I think we could have been a sandwich of bricks.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But you don’t think about that until afterwards, you know.
DK: So just moving on then can you remember the war coming to an end and —
EW: Yes.
DK: And the big changes around that.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. I was hoping that the war was going to end on the 4th of May because that was my birthday.
DK: Right.
EW: But it didn’t. It didn’t end until the 8th I think it was, wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
EW: When it had finished.
DK: VE Day.
EW: And I can remember sort of being out in the street with friends and we were all excited but we didn’t really know what was going to happen next because obviously they were still fighting in Japan.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: And it was [pause] I was of course thirteen. Well, with my mum being quite a Victorian lady I wasn’t allowed to go with all the girls.
DK: No.
EW: To have a knees up in town, you know. But that’s what happened. Everybody went barmy because all the lights came on and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: People hadn’t, I mean children who were born before, when the war started had never seen lights in the street.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And, and what have you but it was I think everybody went barmy really.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I think it was such a relief but thinking back I think I must have been a bit of a child who was, who looked at what was happening to other people.
DK: Yes.
EW: Not the people that were enjoying themselves but those people that had lost sons and husbands that were never going to come back.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I can remember feeling sadness because they weren’t. They wouldn’t be able to go out and celebrate.
DK: They couldn’t join. Join the celebrations. No. No.
EW: Join. No. And as I say it was, it was a time when everybody stuck together. Everybody helped everybody else.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And its, it doesn’t happen anymore. Not, not most of the time. I mean, no, no way in that period of the war time would anybody be lying dead in a house and nobody notice.
DK: No. No.
EW: Which is what happens today.
DK: It does unfortunately, doesn’t it?
EW: So I think, but living through a war like that taught you to appreciate everything you had after that because it was a deprived time. And I mean the dentist is quite happy because I’ve still got my own teeth. And I said, ‘Well, that was because we didn’t have any sweets,’ because —
DK: Right.
EW: You know, sweets were on ration.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And when I went to school we used to go to the little shop next to the school and buy penny carrots and the lady used to peel them for us and we used to eat those instead of sweets. Yeah. And we did have another visitor, quite an important visitor to Grantham and we all had to go out in the street with flags and things and it was General Montgomery.
DK: Oh right.
EW: He came here.
DK: Do you remember seeing him?
EW: Yes. Oh yes. He came up the street in his, you know he had sort of like a vehicle that was specific to him.
DK: Right.
EW: I’ve see that vehicle. It was in a caravan show in the NEC once.
DK: Yeah. it’s a big green thing.
EW: A green van.
DK: Yes. I think —
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yes. I think I know what you mean.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I can remember we were all waving like mad because Monty was really a hero in a way.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because he was a very, he didn’t please everybody.
DK: No.
EW: Especially the old generals that were making a mess of everything. He was, he was a man who knew what he wanted to do. And I think him and Rommel respected each other.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: In a way.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So, but Grantham really was in the midst of it because of all the airfields.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Do you, do you remember, did you visit any of the airfields at all or do you remember going past them?
EW: Well, we’d go past them.
DK: Going past them.
EW: Yeah. Because you weren’t allowed on.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Civilians weren’t allowed to go on but Spitalgate was, we used to, it sounds daft really because Spitalgate Aerodrome is on Somerby Hill.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And Spitalgate Hill is the other one next door.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: So we, my mum used to take us because we did go for walks in those days, and we went up there and we used to pass the aerodrome and we used to see all the planes and everything but it was just —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Normal for us to see all this stuff, you know.
DK: It’s just an army barracks now, isn’t it?
EW: Yes. But it’s closing down.
DK: Closing down. And going to be another housing estate.
EW: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely disgusting, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I mean that place was, it was for the RAF to start with.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Then it was, went to the WAAFs. The WAAFs were there because that’s where I went as a Guider.
DK: Right.
EW: To see Lady Baden Powell.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: On that airfield. And then of course it turned into [pause] I can’t remember what the people are that’s there now? It’s the —
DK: It’s the Duke of Gloucester barracks now isn’t it? I think.
EW: Yes. It is. Yeah. Prince William of Gloucester.
DK: Oh, Prince William of Gloucester, is it? Yeah.
EW: Yes. Yeah.
DK: But not for much longer. As you say there’s a —
EW: No. It’s going.
DK: Going to be a housing estate.
EW: Yeah. So that’s sad.
DK: More houses.
EW: Its, oh I can’t remember what they call it. It’, it’s s got a name now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It’s for a specific kind of soldier. I don’t know quite —
DK: It’s not the Engineers is it?
EW: No. No. My husband was in the Royal Engineers.
DK: Right.
EW: And he, he was, he went in for his National Service just after the war finished. But of course then he had to stay much longer because as an engineer, a Royal Engineer, he was on the Berlin Airlift.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EW: Because the Russians had blockaded.
DK: Yeah. Berlin. Yeah.
EW: Berlin. And they wanted the lot and everybody said you’re not having it, you know. And so of course he was, as an engineer he was helping with the airlift but he was also digging up the airfields in Berlin to stop the Russian planes landing.
DK: Right.
EW: You see, that’s what they had to do. They decimated a lot of —
DK: Yeah.
EW: The runways.
DK: Make it, make it difficult.
EW: To make it difficult for them to come. Yes.
DK: If the Russians had invaded.
EW: Yes. Absolutely and —
DK: So was he out there for the whole of the Berlin Airlift then?
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. So he had to stay in longer because they used to do two years or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he got, had to stay longer until it was all finished.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because the people were starving. I mean, they had nothing. Nothing could get in so we were dropping it from here which we —
DK: Yeah.
EW: We hadn’t got that much.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But we were giving what we could and other countries the same. And they were bringing them in by plane and dropping them in to Berlin because I know that the Germans started the war but they were like the civilians were like us. They just had to put up with what was happening.
DK: The enemy now was the Soviet Union, wasn’t it?
EW: Absolutely.
DK: That was the point. Yeah.
EW: That’s when all this Cold War started.
DK: The Cold War started.
EW: And strangely enough when my husband and I went over to East Germany —
DK: Right.
EW: After they’d just, they brought, I think they started taking the Wall down in November and we went in April. And I bought a piece of the Berlin Wall.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And I had the last one of the last leaflet stamp for Checkpoint Charlie.
DK: Right. So that was ‘89 1990 was it?
EW: ’90. Yes.
DK: ’89. ’90.
EW: Yeah 1990.
DK: 1990.
EW: My husband was stationed in Germany. He was stationed in Hamelin because that’s where the Royal Engineers base was.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: And when we went over in 1990 it was still there. The Royal Engineers were still there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because of course there was such a lot of work to do. I mean, you saw when I was in East Germany it was horrible. It was. Especially I went to a place called, I think it was called Erfurt. Erfurt or something like that.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: And that’s where all of these horrible prisons were where they tortured people. And they still had the Kaiser’s train.
DK: Right.
EW: With his initials on it and everything.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And Hitler had made people plant fruit trees all along the grass verges so that when his troops marched through they could have something to eat. And, and they were still there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But it was a terribly black. Everything was black and polluted.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It was awful.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And those silly little cars they used to have.
DK: Oh, the Trabants.
EW: That’s it. They used to have them on poles with advertisements on.
DK: Yeah. Yes. I’ve seen them in Berlin. Yes.
EW: Yeah. And of course you see in the Potsdamer Platz which is the centre of Berlin where all the big embassies used to be that was flat. Absolutely flat.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But I think they have rebuilt since.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Berlin is a lovely city now.
EW: It is. Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: I’m sure. I’ve not been back since. And my husband had never seen the other side of the Brandenburg Gate.
DK: Right.
EW: And so —
DK: You can just walk straight through now.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And but it was very, very badly polluted. Everything had been neglected and they had no paint. They couldn’t paint their windows or anything so they had to keep, as they rotted they had to take them out and make a new window frame. But they could never buy any paint.
DK: Paint. Yeah.
EW: To paint it with. And we stayed at a hotel which was where the Eastern Bloc leader used to stay.
DK: Yes.
EW: And it was supposed to be a five star.
DK: Eric. Eric Honecker.
EW: That’s it. Honecker. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But no way was it. No way was it a five star. But you had to accept the fact that it was only just, the Wall had only just come down and in fact all of it wasn’t down.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And we walked along it on the eastern side and some of the slogans and the paintings were very provocative. It’s a wonder they didn’t all get shot. You know. But you know that’s how it was.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But it was sad because you’d walk up a street and there would have been a bridge. A railway bridge across the street.
DK: Yes.
EW: And they just chopped them off.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And no man’s land, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And people’s houses that happened to be on the borderline. They had to have all their windows blocked up.
DK: Yeah. Because you could get through to the other side.
EW: Yeah. Yeah. It was awful.
DK: I’ve seen film. There’s film. People escaping, isn’t it? They’re climbing out the window.
EW: That’s right.
DK: Because they’re pointing to the west.
EW: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And of course as soon as they found out what people were doing.
DK: They bricked the windows up.
EW: They put the windows up. Yeah. But it must have been a horrible place to live because we did a little tour of, of Germany and they said. ‘Oh, this is the place where a little, a boy a young boy was trying to escape and he got tangled in the barbed wire.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they killed him.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And then they showed us the place where the officers who tried to shoot Hitler or blow him up.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: They were executed.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they showed us the place where that was done. You know.
DK: It’s an interesting city. Berlin.
EW: It is.
DK: It’s got so much history.
EW: And of course while, when we were there in that Potsdamer Platz we said, the man said to us, ‘Oh, that is the bunker over there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Where Hitler was. So I said, ‘What, what will you to do with it? I said, ‘I hope you don’t leave it there.’ He said, ‘No. We won’t.’ He said, ‘It’s going to be destroyed.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: ‘Because,’ he said, ‘We still got a lot of neo-Nazis in Germany.’
DK: There’s the Jewish Memorial on top of it now.
EW: Is there?
DK: On the site. Yes. Yeah.
EW: Oh, well that’s wonderful.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah. We had a chappie came to talk us at Chapel Guild not long ago and he was, he was a Polish man and he was a Polish Jew. And him and his mother and his brother and sisters all got dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night and put on a train. A cattle wagon.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And his father he never saw again ever. And his mother survived and he survived but the rest of his family were —
DK: All killed.
EW: Yeah. And they just walked out of their house. They had to leave everything.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They were allowed to pack one small suitcase about like that.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I mean he’s, he wrote a book about it.
DK: Right.
EW: And he, a wonderful man you know. Doesn’t, he doesn’t look for sympathy.
DK: No. No. No.
EW: At all.
DK: It’s just but it’s important he’s, he’s telling this story isn’t it?
EW: Absolutely. That’s why, yeah. That’s why we had him.
DK: Some people don’t believe it, do they?
EW: No. Well, they don’t choose to believe it.
DK: Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yes.
EW: Yeah. But as I say, I mean I can remember. I can always remember saying to my mother when the siren went in the middle of the night, ‘I hate that Hitler.’ You know.
DK: Yes.
EW: Because I hated getting out of bed because it was —
DK: Yeah. It becomes quite personal then, doesn’t it?
EW: Oh absolutely.
DK: You’ve got a figure of hatred then. Yes.
EW: That’s right. Yeah. Well we used to, we used to draw derogatory pictures of him and all sorts you know. I mean if ever they we would have to have got rid of them otherwise we would all be shot. You know. And the sad thing was that one of my aunties had the name of Cohen and of course that is a Jewish name.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: Now why she had that name I don’t know because we’ve never gone back into her history. But I think we’d all have got the chop straightaway because we were related to her.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Just going on to your daughters. You said both of your daughters joined the Air Force then.
EW: Yes. Yes. They did.
DK: Was that anything to do, do you think with the stories you told them when they were younger or is it a choice they made?
EW: It’s the choice they made. I think basically they’ve always, the girls have always been, they’ve always known what they wanted to do. My eldest daughter she was, went to college and did business studies.
DK: Right.
EW: And things like that and she’s been working for Grantham Council for years and years because she’s sixty two now. My eldest daughter. And my second daughter, Karen she’s a state registered nurse and she wanted to go in the RAF.
DK: Right.
EW: But if she’d have gone in the RAF she would have gone in as an officer because she was state registered.
DK: Right. Yes.
EW: And David her husband he was in the RAF but at that time he was only a corporal.
DK: Oh, right. Yeah.
EW: And you couldn’t marry.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Beneath your rank. I think it’s changed now.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: Yeah. But at that time. So she didn’t go in because obviously she wanted to marry David so he went in the RAF and he’s, he’s been all over the place and he was with Number 1 Fighter Squadron to start with.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: But as I say he, he’s out now but he’s working for this firm of surveillance.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And he’s got people going all over the world you know and sometimes they have a bit of a rough ride, you know. If somebody doesn’t like the look of them they take their passport and say there’s something not right in it and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: They have to sort it out otherwise those folks would be incarcerated forever, you know.
DK: So your two daughters that did join the RAF.
EW: Yes.
DK: What did they, what were they doing?
EW: Well, my that daughter there. That’s Louise. She’s number three daughter I call her.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: She went into the dental trade.
DK: Oh ok.
EW: And she ran dental units in the places that she —
DK: Right.
EW: Was posted to.
DK: And the picture there is her in the Falklands then.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yeah. That’s she getting an award. And so, but she loved it. I mean I thought they’d chuck her out after the first week because she’s terribly untidy. And when I spoke to one of the officers in, she was, she was based in Cyprus for three years.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: At Akrotiri. And I said to this officer, I said, ‘I thought you might have thrown her out by now.’ She said, ‘No way,’ she said, ‘She’s brilliant at her job.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I thought they were talking about somebody else. And of course —
DK: How many years was she in for then?
EW: Twenty two.
DK: Right.
EW: Yeah. And she’s out now but she’s running a big dental unit in Nottingham which is a seven dentist practice. I think there’s going to be more now because they’ve just built a big extension. And it deals with the students at the university.
DK: Oh ok.
EW: So she’s, she runs that. She’s the dental manager there.
DK: So daughter four. She was also in the air force as well then was she?
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And what —
EW: She was my youngest one.
DK: Right. And her name was?
EW: Helena.
DK: Helen. Right.
EW: Helena.
DK: Helena.
EW: And that was Louise.
DK: Right. And what was she doing then?
EW: Well, she went down. Now, where did she go first? I can remember where Louise went first. She went to RAF Valley.
DK: Right.
EW: Because the girls in her flight gave her some cardboard sheet with cotton wool because they said all you’ve got down in Anglesey is sheep.
DK: Yes.
EW: But we did go down quite a lot to see her.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They had a big air show down there.
DK: Right.
EW: And then she, where did Helen, Louise go next? I think they wanted somebody to go to the, to the Shetland islands.
DK: Oh.
EW: And so she offered to go because nobody wanted to go there.
DK: No.
EW: Because it’s a bit sort of bleak and however it was all changed and she ended up in Cyprus for three years.
DK: Right. Very nice.
EW: Yes. And then her husband came back and said that, ‘We haven’t had a holiday for ages.’ I said, ‘You’ve just had a three year holiday on the government,’ you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But they don’t look at it like that.
DK: No. So daughter number four then. What did she, she wasn’t a dentist?
EW: No. She went in as, she was going to go in, they wanted her to go in as air traffic control.
DK: Right. Ok.
EW: And when she was at the Grantham and Kesteven Girl’s High School they used to send the girls in sixth year down to do you know whatever they wanted to do they could go and see what was involved.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, they sent Helena down to Chivenor.
DK: Right.
EW: I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Chivenor but it was a —
DK: It’s Devon isn’t it?
EW: It’s a training area.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For air traffic control.
DK: I think it’s Devon. Isn’t it?
EW: I don’t know. I’m not sure where she went.
DK: I think it’s that way.
EW: I can’t remember. But I think it sounds like.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know. So, anyway she went down there and she came back and she said, ‘Mum, I cannot do that job.’ She said, ‘You’re stuck in this little room and it’s dark and you’ve got all these blips on the screen.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: She said, ‘It would drive me mad.’ So anyway in the end she went in as a medic.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she, she did the, she was in the department at Biggin Hill where these pilots used to go down for their medical.
DK: Right.
EW: Before they had the interview at Cranwell.
DK: Right. Yeah.
EW: Which is why they decided a long time after that it would be cheaper if they had the medical unit.
DK: In Cranwell.
EW: In Cranwell, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It’s a bit like —
DK: Save all the trouble then.
EW: Shutting the stable door after the horse has gone you know. And so anyway that’s what happened. They made a unit in, in so of course she came down and of course she was living quite close to home but she, she did get married and she had a married quarter there.
DK: Right.
EW: But this one. She, well where was she? Where’s that? There’s a hospital somewhere. An RAF hospital. Where’s? I’m trying to think where it was.
DK: Yeah.
EW: This is the trouble when you get old. Your memory goes, you know. Over things that happened recently. I can remember what happened years ago.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But she had to come out of the RAF because she got married and she was expecting a baby.
DK: Right.
EW: And of course they wouldn’t have married women then in the RAF with children.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EW: So after about, I don’t know how many years she was in but she came out. She had to come out. Well, you’ve heard of the Underwood brothers have you.
DK: Yeah
EW: Yeah. They were big rugby players.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Well, Rory Underwood was a pilot.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And his wife was an officer in the RAF. Well, they chucked her out as well because she’d got a child. So she took the case to —
DK: Court.
EW: Court.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I presume it was the European Court.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they said that the RAF had no right.
DK: Oh right.
EW: To throw out women when they’d got children because all they had to do was build a creche.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And the mothers would pay for the children to go in the creche. And of course there were schools for English children because in Cyprus Louise’s children went to school there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But as I say, so of course after, she had another child after that when she was still out.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And eventually Rory Underwood’s wife took as I say took them to the court.
DK: Court. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And it was ruled that they couldn’t chuck women out. So she went back in.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she had to do another seven weeks basic training which was a bit of a shock and of course since then they’d moved the WAAFs down to Halton.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So she went down to Halton because she was at Swinderby the first time.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But of course they closed that down now. That’s all gone.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Both of my girls passed out at Swinderby.
DK: Right.
EW: And then of course she had to come back and she had to pass out at Honington but they did get the flight award and there was an older chappie in there as well and he was called dad and because she’d been in before these young girls called her mum. So they had a mum and dad in their flight.
DK: Yeah. Dear.
EW: So we went to see her pass out again.
DK: So she did twenty two years then.
EW: Yes.
DK: And your other daughter. How many years did she do?
EW: She did nine.
DK: Nine.
EW: She did nine really because she got married and her husband was training as a structural engineer and of course he couldn’t move.
DK: Right.
EW: Because he was doing his chartership.
DK: Right.
EW: And so she said to them, ‘Can you, can I be based in Lincolnshire?’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And of course you know what the RAF’s like. You know, if you ask for something they send you the furthest away.
DK: The exact opposite. Yeah.
EW: Yeah. So they said no. So she said , ‘Well, I have to come out then because,’ she said, ‘My husband is, he can’t move.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I’m not moving without him. So that was it. so she said well I’m coming out because she had to decide because she was, she was getting promoted and once your promotion comes in you’ve got to be posted.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And so of course it was either or. And I mean she could have been sent to Lossiemouth or anywhere miles away.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And so she came out but since then she’s worked in a bank and she’s now working for, well she runs a business that they look into the debt, people’s —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Bank accounts if they’re letting houses.
DK: Right.
EW: You know. The rents. To make sure that they’ve got enough money to pay. She’s doing that now but I think she regretted coming out.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But she really didn’t have a choice because —
DK: No.
EW: But funnily enough those two girls married two brothers.
DK: Oh right.
EW: So we have two brothers and two sisters married. Yeah. But —
DK: Ok then. That’s, that’s an hour been recording here so we’ve moved on a bit from the wartime years.
EW: Yes. We have.
DK: I’ll stop it there.
EW: Yes.
DK: But thanks very much for your, your contribution there. I’ll —
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Interview with Eileen Widdowson
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWiddowsonFE180731, PWiddowsonFE1801
Format
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00:58:55 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grantham
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Peterborough, Eileen Widdowson’s father died when she was quite young, which resulted in the family moving to Grantham. With the East Coast main railway line and also a munitions factory, Grantham was a regular target for the Luftwaffe. Eileen recalls life at school, describes being told to sit under desks or sitting in the cloakroom with her coat over her head during air raids. On one occasion she had been collected from school by her mother and they had become trapped in a street when a brewers dray horse had bolted, blocking their exit. She recalls looking up at the diving aircraft, and being close enough to be be able to see the pilot’s eyes through his goggles. Workers from all over the country came to work at the munitions factory, and Eileen remembers sleeping three to a bed, to allow workers to be billeted in the spare bedroom. She collected rose hips and watercress to be sold, with profits being donated to the Red Cross. Grantham was a social destination for the many nearby airfields, and although there was little trouble with personnel, she does recall how white and black Americans would often fight, her first experience of racial discrimination. Before marrying, her husband had enlisted in the Royal Engineers after the war and was stationed in Berlin during the Berlin Airlift, working on the airfields. Two of her daughters later joined the RAF. Eileen gives accounts of the experiences of all three, including one of her daughter’s rejoining the RAF after a change in legislation, initially being forced to leave when becoming pregnant.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
African heritage
bombing
childhood in wartime
entertainment
home front
Red Cross
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/844/10838/AGreenE180522.2.mp3
249391cf79090c9672f3295249b1c716
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Elaine
E Green
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Elaine green (b. 1940). Her Uncle was an armourer for 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Ok. We’ll get, just get this going. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s working.
EG: Ok.
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing, interviewing [unclear] on the 22nd of May 2018. So, if I just put that there.
EG: Yeah.
DK: I’ll. I’ll occasionally look over like this.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, what, what I want to do first of all is just ask a little bit about yourself. So, have you always lived in this area then?
EG: No. I, I was born in Yorkshire but I lived in Peterborough but my grandfather lived on Nelson Street in Lincoln.
DK: Right.
EG: And we used to go and see him. And my aunt and my uncle were there as well and my cousin, Richard.
DK: Right.
EG: But they moved around to Woodhall Spa and all around there in lodgings.
DK: Right. If you don’t mind me asking how old would you have been during wartime then? Would you —
EG: I was born 1940.
DK: Right. Ok. So come, come the sort of Dambusters time —
EG: Oh yeah.
DK: You were about three. Three years old.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. I don’t remember that but my mother does.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They weren’t supposed to say anything but my uncle did say to my mother, ‘Don’t tell Lottie.’ That was his wife, ‘But pray for us on the 16th.’ Or around about there.
DK: Right. So, your uncle’s name was —
EG: Ernest Richard Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton.
EG: B O L T O N.
DK: And he was with 617 Squadron.
EG: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Right [unclear]
EG: Yeah. He was in there for twenty five years. I’ve got the paperwork about it. He, I think he was the eldest one in the squadron. He was the, he looked after the bombs and he was the chief armourer.
DK: Right.
EG: He worked with Barnes Wallis. There was letters between him and Barnes Wallis but my aunt destroyed them.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: I know. My cousin was furious about that.
DK: Oh dear. So, you don’t, now after all these years you probably don’t know what exactly he was doing with Wallis then.
EG: Well, he was at the Ladybower.
DK: Right. Right.
EG: And also down by the sea. Where ever that was.
DK: Reculver? Would it have been Kent?
EG: I don’t know but it’s my Aunt Ettie, his sister in law that told me what she knew.
DK: Right.
EG: Guy Gibson said to him, ‘As you’ve been here right from the beginning would you like to go?’ Now, I’d have said no but he said yes and he went so there was a hundred and thirty four went that night. Which plane he was on we’re not sure. It could have been Guy’s. We’re not sure. And, but he cut his head badly and when he got back he was in hospital for two or three days.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, he actually went on the raid then.
EG: He went on the raid.
DK: Right.
EG: As an observer. As an observer. I mean what was Guy? Twenty four.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he would be forty four.
DK: Right. So, he’d have been born in —
EG: 1900.
DK: 1900. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. There’s a photograph of him. That’s his medal.
DK: Right.
EG: That’s a letter from the King.
DK: So, he was awarded the, just for the recording here he was awarded the MBE then.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So that’s the MBE there.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, it’s Squadron Leader Ernest R Bolton, MBE.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. That was from Arthur Harris.
DK: So, there’s a post, well, a telegram here.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: A telegram here to Squadron Leader Bolton at 54 base which was Coningsby.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, “My warmest congratulations on the well-deserved award of your MBE.” Signed by Arthur T Harris.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Air Chief Marshall.
EG: That’s right.
DK: And can I just, for the recording that’s dated 16th of June 1945.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So that’s, that’s from the Under-Secretary of State for Air.
EG: Maybe Johnny Johnson might know about it.
DK: Yeah. Might do. Yeah.
EG: That was —
DK: That’s the Gazette. Yeah.
EG: The Gazette.
DK: The London Gazette.
EG: Yeah. And that was when he died, I think. That one. 1947.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So —
EG: You can have all those.
DK: So, yeah. Right. Thanks. He’s in the London Gazette then and that’s, this is recording his, his death, is it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh, was it —
EG: I don’t.
DK: Oh, no. It’s —
EG: Bolton.
DK: Bolton. Yeah.
EG: Bolton. I don’t know what MBE.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. I know he died in ’47.
DK: Right. So, he died January 1947 or —
EG: Yeah.
DK: About that time.
EG: Around about that time. I can remember the funeral. We weren’t sure what it was but we were, my cousin and I were pushed next door while they went to church.
DK: Right.
EG: I think it was St Faith’s. That’s the nearest church to Nelson Street.
DK: So, whereabouts were you living then at this time?
EG: Well, we were living in Peterborough.
DK: Right.
EG: My mother and I.
DK: Right. And Bolton himself, your uncle where was, where would he have been based? Was he based at Scampton at the time?
EG: Well, when he died, no. He’d retired.
DK: Right.
EG: And he’d got a job and through the accident on the plane.
DK: Right.
EG: He caught, he got cancer of the brain and died.
DK: Gosh.
EG: Because of it.
DK: Really?
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, while he was with 617 Squadron then he’s gone up in a plane.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And been injured in some way.
EG: Yeah.
DK: And that led to his death.
EG: Yeah.
DK: In 1947.
EG: ’47. Yeah.
DK: Right. So, he retired and then died very soon afterwards.
EG: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely old chap. I can remember he always used to cook breakfast when we used to go up for a weekend and put a pinny on. He’d got his uniform on.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But always liked cooking breakfast.
DK: Yeah. So, do you know much about what he was doing before 617 Squadron?
EG: No. That’s where —
DK: So you don’t know whether he was, because Gibson tried to recruit most of the aircrew and ground crew. Do you know if he would have been personally recruited —
EG: I think, yeah. I should think he would be, yeah.
DK: Recruited by Gibson.
EG: I should think he would be but you’ve got to find that out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: There was a programme the other night about it but it was 2010 and they’re saying that the ground, he, he couldn’t recruit many people.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Not many volunteers [laughs]
DK: No. So, do you know much about what he did after the Dambusters raid then?
EG: No. I know nothing. Now, if you ring my cousin up he might know more.
DK: Ok.
EG: Because he was living with his mum and dad.
DK: Right.
EG: But he said he was at Coningsby.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because —
EG: Well, it’s not far away.
DK: Yeah. Because 617 then moved so he’s probably then moved with them.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: To Coningsby.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And I think they went to Woodhall Spa after that.
EG: Well, they lived at Woodhall Spa for a bit. But they did have accommodation, I think at Scampton —
DK: Right.
EG: At one time. I remember seeing a photograph of Richard when he was a little boy sitting on the step. It looked like a Nissen hut.
DK: So, the story about the dog then.
EG: The dog.
DK: The dog would —
EG: Well —
DK: The dog called N*****. We can say that in front of [unclear].
EG: Well, I’ll tell you another story about him later but they brought, we were up at my grandfather’s at Nelson Street in Lincoln for the weekend. Uncle Richard brought N***** home and he chewed my hat. I was about two at the time but I thought maybe he’d gone away with his wife but looking at this other, he had a lady friend called Margaret.
DK: Right.
EG: And they used to go to Honeysuckle Cottage.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Did you know that?
DK: No. Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Well, I’m not sure about this but my friend, Liz, her mother was his driver and I can’t remember if her name was Margaret but they used to interview her.
DK: Just in case. So it, so that’s, I mean do you remember much about the incident?
EG: No. I remember nothing.
DK: Yeah.
EG: It’s what my mother always told me.
DK: So, no pictures of the dog then.
EG: No.
DK: No.
EG: No. None at all. But funnily enough I was in the dentist in Grantham here and Richard Todd used to live here, around here.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And Richard came into the dentist and, being nosy I said, ‘Oh Richard, by the way,’ I said, ‘Have you heard that they’re going to do a remake of your film?’ And he had this booming voice.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he shouted out, ‘And do you know they’re going to call the bloody dog Trigger?’ [laughs] Oh dear. Oh, I remember that. But they never did, did they?
DK: No.
EG: Make another film.
DK: So, so the story is, so, the story is then as the armourer there he actually went on the raid itself.
EG: Yeah. As an observer.
DK: Observer. Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And is, is there anything, you haven’t got any any documentation at all about when he was with, just that?
EG: Just that.
DK: When he was with Wallis.
EG: This is what my cousin put though yesterday.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: For me. You can have all that.
DK: Ok.
EG: But if you want my cousin you’ll have to ring that number.
DK: Yeah. So, what’s your cousin’s name then?
EG: Richard Bolton.
DK: Right.
EG: It’s another Richard Bolton.
[pause]
DK: I have got my pen here somewhere.
EG: But the RAF, because my uncle died they sent my cousin to boarding school and paid for it.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was at Queen’s College, Taunton, Somerset.
DK: I can never find my pen when I really want to.
EG: Here you are. Just put Richard Bolton on there.
DK: So, is that his son?
EG: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. I think he was stationed in India for a while. I’m positive he was, joined the, not the RAF but before the RAF.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he would be one of the, what did they call it in those days before the RAF.
DK: Oh, the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: The Royal Flying Corps. That’s right.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah.
DK: So, his career might go back that far.
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah. He’d been there twenty five years.
DK: Could well do then, couldn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: Because that was 1918.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Might have joined the Royal Flying Corps.
EG: He’d be about eighteen then.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. So, he’s one of the old school.
DK: Oh right.
EG: Yeah. He was a Regular.
DK: So, do you want to, for the recording then do you want to tell your story about your father and the tank? You’re going to have to repeat it again because I’ve just the recorder on.
EG: Well, dad was about, he would be about five at the time.
DK: Yeah.
EG: When my grandfather came home and said he was going to take dad up to the Common to see Little Willie, the tank which was called in those days the Water Tank of Mesopotamia.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And they picked him up, took a photograph of him and put him in the tank and rode around the Common with it.
DK: Right.
EG: So, he was the first child in the world —
DK: To ride on a tank.
EG: On the tank.
DK: So just for the recording what was your father’s name then?
EG: Ernest Watkinson.
DK: Ernest Watkinson.
EG: Yeah.
DK: The first, first child to ride on the tank.
EG: Yeah. I know. I’m still looking for that photograph.
DK: Yeah. As I say you might want to try the Imperial War Museum. They might have it.
EG: Well, they’ve got photographs of a woman with a dog with a long frock on and a hat and two little girls. But not a little boy sitting on a tank.
DK: Yeah.
EG: But I would have thought the papers would have been there. The newspapers. Local.
DK: Could. Could well be.
EG: Yeah.
DK: If you look in the archives for the —
EG: Well, I did ring them up.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And heard no more from them.
DK: Probably might have though if it was a local paper that no longer exists where the archive.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That could have gone but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: But I expect it’ll be out there somewhere.
EG: But also, when my father, who was in the Second World War and he was stationed in Suffolk near Orford.
DK: Right.
EG: Do you know where Orford is?
DK: Yes. Yes.
EG: Yes. South of Southwold.
DK: Yeah.
EG: And he was on duty in the forest there. Is it Rendham or Rendlesham Forest, on a field phone and he was told what he saw that night he wasn’t to divulge.
DK: Was this the famous flashing lights?
EG: No.
DK: Oh, another one.
EG: Before that.
DK: Oh, before that. Oh right.
EG: Before that. No. No.
DK: Because that was quite recent, wasn’t it?
EG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: That was the 1980s, wasn’t it?
EG: Yeah. Well, apparently —
DK: The Americans saw something in the woods.
EG: Yeah. The Americans saw something in the woods.
DK: Yeah.
EG: No. This was during the war this was.
DK: Oh right.
EG: And apparently the Germans landed. There’s a shingle street and they came with rubber boats and the Canadians, I believe it was the Canadians, dad said went over, dropped petrol on the top of them and dropped a bomb in the middle and they’re all buried in the forest.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: So, whether that was the film, do you remember, “The Eagle Has Landed?”
DK: Has landed yeah. Yeah.
EG: That’s based on that I think.
DK: Based on that. Yeah. There has been rumours of German landings hasn’t there but nothing has ever been —
EG: Oh, yeah. Well, dad saw it that night. Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: Yeah. So, whether the lights came on after that —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, he had a son then. Richard Bolton who was your cousin.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Was there any other children then?
EG: He had two sons from his first marriage.
DK: Right. Ok.
EG: But what their names are I don’t know. They were much older. His first wife died. Whether in childbirth I’m not really sure.
DK: Yeah. So, you don’t really know anything more about this accident that he actually had on this aircraft other than he banged his head.
EG: Well, he banged his head. I believe cut it open. That’s what my aunt said.
DK: Right.
EG: Yeah. Yeah. But he was lovely. He really was a nice man.
DK: And you haven’t got any stories handed down about, you say he was a chief armourer but —
EG: Yeah.
DK: What his actual role was as an armourer?
EG: He was, well that’s all I heard. He was a chief armourer and he worked with Barnes Wallis.
DK: Yeah.
EG: They were quite close and he went around with Barnes Wallis as well. I said there was letters but my aunt destroyed them all.
DK: Yeah.
EG: Why? I don’t know.
DK: Because I’m, I’m wondering. He’s clearly got involved in the development of the bouncing bomb, hasn’t he?
EG: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
DK: And the various issues you’d need to set the thing off.
EG: Yeah. Well, Barnes Wallis might have. If he’s written to him he might —
DK: Might have copies of it.
EG: Copies. Yeah.
DK: Because I think the Barnes Wallis Archive now is in York, I think.
EG: Is it?
DK: I think it’s at the York Aircraft Museum. I think. It should be at Brooklands but, because that’s where he worked for many years but I don’t think it is. It’s either, either Brooklands or up in York.
EG: Yeah.
DK: That’s where it might be. There might be something there.
EG: Yeah. But I took my cousin up to Scampton. Saw the grave and Guy’s office.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: And what have you.
DK: Because it’s got a big fence around it now, hasn’t it? Iron railings.
EG: Has it? Oh.
DK: Yeah. Iron railings around, around the grave.
EG: Oh, yeah. I saw the —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: Railings around the grave. Yeah. And funnily enough the Red Arrows just turned up that time.
DK: Yeah. Oh right.
EG: And the chap, the guide who was taking us around said, ‘If you wave they’ll wave back.’
DK: Yeah.
EG: And as they came down they waved [laughs]
DK: Excellent.
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, that’s, I think that’s probably all we’re going to be able to do today.
EG: Yeah.
DK: But just background on him. Is there anything else you’ve thought of?
EG: I can’t think of anything else.
DK: Yeah.
EG: He was, I think he was the oldest one in squadron. There might have been another one on the ground crew but there definitely the flight wasn’t.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EG: They were in their twenties weren’t they? I mean even Guy was twenty four.
DK: He was only twenty four wasn’t he?
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: David Shannon had only just turned twenty one.
EG: Terrible.
DK: Yes.
EG: I know my uncle as that happened in the May my uncle, my mother’s youngest brother was twenty one on the [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
EG: In July he was shot in Sicily.
DK: Right.
EG: And his captain visited [unclear] in Yorkshire and he said, ‘If it’s any consolation we got the sniper.’ And she turned around and she said, ‘No. You shouldn’t have done that. Somebody else’s son.’
DK: It’s always the tragedy, isn’t it?
EG: Yeah.
DK: The tragedy of war. Nobody, nobody wins in war.
EG: Nobody wins in war.
DK: Yeah.
EG: My grandfather you see we were all mining stock.
DK: Right.
EG: All my uncles had gone down the mines but my grandfather didn’t want his youngest son going down. He said, ‘You’re going to be a gardener.’ So he was called up and killed. Yeah.
DK: Oh dear.
EG: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok, then. Well, I’ll, I’ll stop the recording there. That’s, that’s great. Thanks very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Elaine Green
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGreenE180522
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:02 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Elaine’s uncle worked as an armourer in RAF Scampton. He first joined the Royal Flying Corps before the organisation was renamed the RAF. He worked with Barnes Wallis at the time of the design of the bouncing bomb. He sustained an injury which the family believe led to his early death.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/337/3501/PTaylorEC1701.1.jpg
acbcb633c679d09f01c94a0f7e54d530
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/337/3501/ATaylorEC170928.2.mp3
9a15f4d3f4e54369b0747cf28be0b8eb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Taylor, Eric
Eric Charles Taylor
Eric C Taylor
E C Taylor
E Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Squadron Leader Eric Charles Taylor.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Taylor, EC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Squadron Leader Eric Taylor at his home on the –
BT: Where are we?
DK: 28th of September 2017. So if I just put that there, put that that there –
ET: Yeah.
DK: Put that there. I’ll keep looking down, I’m just making sure that it’s working.
ET: Yes.
DK: That looks okay. So if we leave that, yeah that looks okay. Well, what I wanted to ask you first was what, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ET: School.
DK: Right, so you went straight from school to –
ET: I left school in the June forty-three –
DK: Mhm.
ET: Sorry, [pause] –
DK: It would be 1943 wouldn’t it?
ET: Yeah it is forty-three.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So you went straight from school, straight from school to the RAF?
ET: Yes.
DK: So what made you want to join the RAF then?
ET: Because I, I joined the, the LDV I think they called it –
DK: The Home Guard.
ET: The Local Defence Force.
DK: Mhm [BT laughs].
ET: And they put me through hours of drill [laughs], and I didn’t like that very much. I thought I’ll probably better join the Air Force, and you used to get all these magazines of course, you know, with all the things about the –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Battle of Britain and that type of thing. That’s what encouraged me to, to join. I went to Edinburgh for a testation [?] which was delayed for six months, so I actually went in, in the February –
DK: Is that on? Yeah, okay.
ET: Forty-three.
DK: Right. So –
ET: That was wrong, I told you –
DK: You’re right, it says forty-two in here.
ET: Must have been forty-two [emphasis].
DK: Right.
ET: Twenty, 1923 and something.
DK: That’s 1940 isn’t it? Okay, don’t worry, don’t worry.
ET: 1940.
DK: Yeah.
BT: 1940, you’d be seventeen.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Must have been forty-one then.
BT: Forty-one was it, okay.
ET: Left school.
BT: Yeah.
DK: So forty-one.
ET: Yeah, because it was forty-two –
DK: That you joined the Air Force.
ET: That I joined the Air Force.
DK: Yeah, yeah, okay.
ET: That’s right.
DK: You left school in 1941 and then joined the Air Force –
ET: Yeah.
DK: In 1942. So what, what was your first posting in the Air Force then? Where, where, can you remember where you went to?
ET: Well the first , well I went to London, and the – ooh we attended several lectures, you know, mainly about venereal disease [all laugh] and all the rest of the things.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And the, from then on I went up to, I trained at Staverton, Gloucestershire, Number Six AUS [?].
DK: Right.
ET: And that took about a year.
DK: So at this point you were already training as a navigator?
ET: Yeah, oh initially I did a small six hours course. I went in as a PNB.
DK: Right.
ET: Pilot, navigator or –
DK: Bomber aimer.
ET: Bomber aimer. Didn’t quite make the pilot stakes [?] so I became a navigator.
DK: Right.
ET: And then I went to the CUS [?]. That was the first straight navigator course, because before that they had the air observers, they called them.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Yeah, so we didn’t do any bombing aiming at that time. Course I went through them very quickly [emphasis], it only took about a year.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Then from there I went to Stratford-on-Avon to the OTU.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Operational training unit.
DK: Yeah. Just going, winding back a bit. What, what was the training as a, as a navigator? Were you actually flying [emphasis] at the time then?
ET: Yes, yes.
DK: So what sort of aircraft were you –
ET: Anson
DK: Ansons, right.
ET: Anson mainly. And then we came onto the Wellington when we came onto the OTU.
DK: The operational training unit.
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so that was Number 16 Operational Training Unit?
ET: That’s right.
DK: Yeah, and that was at RAF Upper Heyford?
ET: No.
DK: Oop, sorry.
ET: It’s at, it was at, it, just past Stratford-on-Avon.
DK: Stratford-on-Avon, right, okay.
ET: Yeah.
DK: So that’s 16 OTU at Stratford-on-Avon. And, and what aircraft were you training on there?
ET: Wellingtons.
DK: And is that where you met your, your crew then?
ET: Yeah. Well we all met [emphasis] –
DK: Mm.
ET: And just somebody would say, ‘would you like to fly with me?’ It was very, it wasn’t a rigid [?] thing at all, you know.
DK: No. So how did that work then? Were you all pushed into a hangar and you all had to work –
ET: Well we’re in a big hall, yeah, and the pilots were there and [laughs] –
DK: Right. How did you think that worked, ‘cause it’s quite unusual for the military. Normally you’re ordered to go somewhere.
ET: Well that’s right.
DK: This was quite an unusual way of where you –
ET: Yes.
DK: Picked your crew.
ET: Anyway, that’s how they did it and it seemed to work out there pretty well.
DK: And you found your, your pilot there then did you?
ET: Yes.
DK: And can you remember your pilot’s name?
ET: Yes, Cyril Pearce.
DK: Right.
ET: I think he’s no longer with us –
DK: Yeah.
ET: I don’t think any of the crew are with us now, you know.
DK: So you would have met your pilot?
ET: Yes.
DK: And –
ET: I met them all, the bomb aimer –
DK: Bomb aimer.
ET: And the wireless operator.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And the gunner.
DK: Mhm. And, and did you all get on well together when you –
ET: Yes, we seemed to, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Yeah. And I – the navigator didn’t do a lot of the pilot training on the aircraft, you know, the local flying circuits and mops and that.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But on the cross countries of course, we, we all went on those.
DK: Mm.
ET: Some had a dual instructor and others smaller [?].
DK: Yeah. What did you think of the Wellington as an aircraft?
ET: Actually quite good after the [laughs] – it was a bit bigger. The big thing I remember is – I think the model’s a 1-C that we trained on.
DK: Right.
ET: At the OTU, but then we got a mark three I think. ‘Cause we took an aeroplane out with us when we went to Tunisia.
DK: Right.
ET: And that was a long flight.
DK: Mm.
ET: We had to go miles out to sea to avoid the Bay of Biscay, you know, ‘cause all the Germans –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: Were there, and we flew from Portreath to a place called Ras el Ma –
DK: Right.
ET: On the west coast of Africa. The big thing I remember there was there was always an enormous amount of flies [DK and ET laugh]. You had a plate of soup, had a quick swipe [DK laughs], put your spoon in quickly [laughs]. And from there we just, we went on through Blida and then ended up at the Kairouan.
DK: Right.
ET: With aircraft – 142 Squadron and 150 had both just gone there. There was nothing, there were no facilities at all. There wasn’t even a latrine initially [laughs].
DK: So, so out your training then, you’ve done the operational training unit and really cross country flights around England.
ET: That’s it.
DK: And then your posted to your squadron and you’re posted out to Africa.
ET: Yes [emphasis].
DK: Oh right.
ET: Actually we just cleared [?] Africa, North Africa. Well we arrived there –
DK: Right.
ET: And when I was, we were there, we had the invasion of Sicily of course.
DK: Mm.
ET: And Italy. And most of our bombing were, they were to, you know, targets in Sicily.
DK: Right.
ET: And several, going up the coast to Italy.
DK: Right, and this was with 142 Squadron?
ET: 142 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So can you remember how many operations you did in the Middle East and Italy?
ET: Yes I, thirty.
DK: Thirty [emphasis]? Oh right.
ET: That was a tour then.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And I came back to UK. Oh I went with a journey from Tunis to Algiers –
DK: Mm.
ET: By train, and on the carriage I’ll always remember it said, ‘forty orm [?] or five [laughs], what were they, sivar [?] horses’ [ET and DK laugh]. Took five days, the journey, and then you got on a boat, came back to Liverpool.
DK: Right.
ET: This was at the end of forty-three –
DK: Uh-huh.
ET: And the – I thought I’d move to Scotland so I went all the way up to a place called Edsoff [?] where I used to live and the last bit I had to do by bus, you know, train then bus.
DK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ET: Then I met this girl on the bus and she said, ‘what are you doing?’ And I said, I said ‘I’m going home [emphasis], what did you think?’ She says ‘I think they’ve moved’ [laughs]. Ah, I had then to go and search where they’d gone to.
DK: And this was your family?
ET: That’s my family –
DK: They’d moved while you were away [laughs].
ET: My parents – well I didn’t get the letter of course to say they were moving.
DK: Oh of course.
ET: And they’d moved to Woodhall Spa would you believe.
DK: Oh right.
ET: In Lincolnshire.
DK: Yeah, yeah, know it well [DK and ET laugh]. So when you were in Africa then, your parents moved from Scotland –
ET: Yes.
DK: To Woodhall Spa.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And you didn’t, you didn’t know [laughs].
ET: Didn’t know.
DK: No. If I could just go back a bit, your operations in the Middle East. Did you find navigating something that came to you easily or –
ET: Quite difficult.
DK: Difficult? Right, because –
ET: Actually, we did have one, one navigation error which a very lucky to get away with it in many respects because coming back from Italy, we hit this land [emphasis] and I thought it was the north coast of Africa –
DK: Right.
ET: It turned out to be the north coast of Sicily [emphasis], going along.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And, course there’s some very high mountains there. Our signaller, our wireless operator finally got a , what we’d call a QDM –
DK: Mm.
ET: You know, a course to steer.
DK: Yeah.
ET: So we turned on that. Of course we’re getting short of fuel and all sorts of things, and we threw out the guns onto the turret to make the aircraft lighter, and coasted at quite a low altitude –
DK: Mm.
ET: Thinking of the mountains there –
DK: Yeah.
ET: And landed , there was an emergency airfield right on the tip of, which we landed at.
DK: On Sicily?
ET: No, no, in North Africa.
DK: Oh North Africa was it, right.
ET: Right at the top there.
DK: Right, oh right.
ET: So that was a real bit of luck there.
DK: Did you, did you get into any trouble for navigating?
ET: Not really.
DK: No, good [DK and ET laugh].
ET: What I remember is my pilot got in trouble because there was a taxi accident.
DK: Right.
ET: That’s the worst thing that can be done, you know. I think the wing hit it [unclear] on one and knocked [?] it up and twice, and I remember the station [?] commander at briefing for an operational trip. He’d see [?] pilots in front of him and say, ‘look at these men, traitors to the cause.’ I always remember that.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Terrible thing to say really.
DK: Bit harsh isn’t it?
ET: They felt bad enough as it is.
DK: Yeah. And one of those, one of those was your pilot was it?
ET: Yes [emphasis].
DK: Stood up – so he had to stand in front of everybody and get told off?
ET: Well there was three of them.
DK: Three of them, right.
ET: Yes, two’s [?] being blamed for the trip, you know –
DK: Yeah.
ET: That night. And this came out.
DK: Oh dear. It’s not very good is it? [Laughs].
ET: Very unsympathetic.
DK: No. Were commanding officers like that then? Were they a bit tough?
ET: This is a copy, what’s it? [Papers shuffle]. Is there something in there called “Blida’s Bombers?” A book. Oh yeah, it’s about him.
DK: Oh right.
ET: There’s something in [papers shuffle, pause]. All this mail, that’s Kairouan [laughs].
DK: Right. Just for the recording, it’s a magazine or a pamphlet called “Blida’s Bombers.” B-L-I-D-A, Blida. That’s, that’s in Algiers isn’t it?
ET: That’s right.
DK: [Unclear].
ET: That was a big base, as the Army. We started going in with the first army –
DK: Right.
ET: [Unclear].
DK: I actually went there many years ago, to Blida in Algiers. And just for the recording, this is “Blida’s Bombers” by Eric M. Summers. Did you know Eric M. Summers?
ET: No.
DK: No, no.
ET: But there was a Group Captain Powel, his photograph was in there which I was trying to, to find.
DK: Right.
ET: He was a man that –
DK: Oh, Group Captain Powel –
ET: Yeah.
DK: Here he is.
ET: Yeah, but there’s a picture of him with his –
DK: That’s in there.
ET: Fly [?]. He always used to fly [laughs].
DK: So he was your commanding officer was he?
ET: He was the station commander actually –
DK: Station commander, right.
ET: Group captain, yeah.
DK: And was it him who told your –
ET: Yes.
DK: The three pilot off?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Well that’s for the recording then, Group Captain Powell [laughs]. Ah there he is, there is he is.
ET: That’s him.
DK: Yeah.
ET: That’s exactly with his – yeah.
DK: Oh, so just for the recording here. It’s Group Captain Powell, briefing for Radan Recina [?]. And it looks like he’s got a fly swat there.
ET: That’s right. He always used that as a pointer [DK and ET laugh].
DK: He looks like he must have been a bit of a character. Oh wow.
ET: Quite a forceful –
DK: Forceful, I can imagine [?].
ET: Yeah.
DK: So there’s the Wellingtons –
ET: Probably [unclear], that’s him, yeah.
DK: You were flying.
ET: Yes, yeah.
DK: So this is all – the book itself is about the Tunis campaign then?
ET: What I can remember is when we got later [?], the power, the whole, the whole instruments used to shake and [laughs].
DK: [Unclear] my phone’s on. Sorry about that. So you got Noel Coward’s poem [?] there, ‘lie in the dark and listen.’
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah, ah. So while you were in North Africa then and you’re bombing targets in Italy, were you, was your aircraft ever hit at all or, can you recall?
ET: Er, not really. Should they call it sometimes [?], few peppered.
DK: Right.
ET: But nothing direct.
DK: Nothing serious.
ET: Direct hit.
DK: So you never got attacked by German aircraft –
ET: No.
DK: At all?
ET: No.
DK: Right. So what did you, what sort of targets were you hitting there in –
ET: Mostly airfields.
DK: Mostly airfields.
ET: There, [papers shuffle] here you are –
DK: Right.
ET: I don’t have the – oh [unclear]. That’s how we got there.
DK: Right okay, so that’s, for the recording here, that’s your logbook.
ET: That’s my logbook, yeah.
DK: So –
ET: Number one.
DK: Your pilot then is Pearce.
ET: Yes.
DK: Sergeant Pearce, and you’re the navigator down on here.
ET: We’re all sergeants –
DK: You’re all sergeants, right.
ET: At the time. There was very few, very few commissioned there on the squadron.
DK: Right, so the whole crew was sergeants then?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so from the logbook then, so you’ve gone from Portreath to Ra –
ET: Ras el Ma.
DK: El Ma. Ras el Ma to Blida.
ET: That’s right.
DK: Then Blida to Kairouan.
ET: Kairouan.
DK: And I’ll spell that for the recording. It’s K-A-I-R-O-U-A-N. And so your base was Maison Blanche?
ET: No the base was Kairouan.
DK: Kairouan was it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Right okay.
ET: It looks as though someone must have taken an aeroplane or something up there.
DK: Oh right [something pings in background].
ET: And I don’t know how we came back but it –
DK: Right. So you’ve done operations then to Nissena [?] –
ET: Yeah.
DK: And that’s in a Wellington, 19th of June 1943. So Nissena [?] seems to be a regular target, hmm. So Nissena [?], Italian airfield, Syracuse.
ET: Syracuse, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Masala [?].
DK: So quite a number of – so you said you did thirty operations there in North Africa?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Hmm, the Nissena beaches I noticed [page turns]. So what were the, what were the briefings like in North Africa? Were you sort of in a tent and – what were the facilities like?
ET: Yes, was all under canvas, the whole thing. The food was corned beef –
DK: Yeah.
ET: For everything. In fact, I got an attack of jaundice –
DK: Oh right.
ET: Through that. I went into hospital and they gave me tinned fruit –
DK: Rivht.
ET: And I thought this was a most wonderful thing to, to get. In fact, there was a big American camp near us and they – we used to trade whiskey [DK laughs] for tinned fruit –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: You know, that they had.
DK: [Tape moved] I’m not sure that that’s such a good spot now [laughs].
BT: No.
ET: Not now [laughs].
DK: Not now, no. Oh right.
ET: I suppose thank goodness for corned beef otherwise the [laughs] –
DK: So at, at the briefings then, presumably you’re sort of sat down and told what the target – were you told what the targets were?
ET: Told what the target is, yes.
DK: Right. So in North Africa, were they mostly military targets, airfields and –
ET: Yes.
DK: I noticed here you’ve got here [reading from logbook]: ‘30th of September 1943, ops. Port engine caught fire on takeoff [emphasis].’ Do you remember that?
ET: Not really [both laugh].
DK: Well it says you landed okay after twenty-five minutes.
ET: Yeah we always – obviously we’d have just gone –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Round and there –
DK: And landed again.
ET: And landed again.
DK: So then you’ve had, got several places in Italy then. I noticed you’ve got Pisa is one, ops to Pisa.
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah [paper turns].
ET: I remember the vehicles [?], I remember we were on that night, bobbing and the beaches, you know, before the army got in.
DK: So that’s 142 Squadron then, and you’ve done two hundred and forty-two hours, fifteen minutes operations then.
ET: Is that the end?
DK: Yeah that’s the end there, yeah.
ET: Yeah [page turns].
DK: So you’ve, you’ve come back to the UK then, you’ve come back to England. What, where –
ET: I was an instructor then.
DK: Right [laughs].
ET: Or so – we didn’t have half the instrumentation that the UK aircraft had.
DK: Right.
ET: So it was like an idiot teaching an idiot really [laughing], until we got used to –
DK: Right. So you, you went onto training then did you? You were –
ET: Yes.
DK: Right.
ET: It, I did a year –
DK: Right.
ET: Mainly at a place called Barford St. John –
DK: Right.
ET: Which is not far from Oxfordshire. Oh it’s about three miles away from, what’s the name of the town [pause], starts with a B I think.
DK: Bedford?
BT: Bicester?
DK: Bicester?
BT: Bicester, yeah?
ET: B – well down that way, yeah.
DK: Right. And that was in Oxfordshire was it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Right.
ET: And then the –
DK: So what, what aircraft were you flying doing the training there?
ET: Wellingtons.
DK: Wellingtons again, and that, you said they were better equipped than the ones you were flying in the Middle East?
ET: Yes [DK laughs]. There’s a thing in navigation called G [emphasis] –
DK: Yes.
ET: Which we didn’t have out there, you know. It was a wonderful aid, very accurate –
DK: Mm.
ET: But I had to learn [laughs], I had to learn that, you see, when I came back .
DK: So although you were training people, you yourself didn’t know –
ET: Well [laughs].
DK: Oh right.
ET: You know radio, you know, out there, about thirty-five miles was the range of our radio. You know –
DK: Mm.
ET: If you did want to call our base [laughs] –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You had to be within thirty-five miles of it.
DK: So not very far then?
ET: Not very far at all, no.
BT: Banbury, it was.
DK: Banbury.
ET: Banbury [emphasis] was the place –
BT: I just looked it up.
ET: Yeah sorry, Banbury, Banbury’s where – it was just outside Banbury. And anyway, at the end of the year they changed from Wellingtons to Mosquitos.
DK: Right, okay.
ET: So I just stayed there and did the course, met the pilot. He was a very good pilot. He, when he finished training in Canada they kept him on as an instructor.
DK: Right. So you’ve come – I slightly misread this earlier and I want – for the benefit of the tape, your initial training was at Number Six Air Observation School at Staverton.
ET: That’s right.
DK: And then you went to 21 OTU, Morteon-in-the-Marsh.
ET: That’s correct.
DK: Then [emphasis] to North Africa.
ET: For operational training –
DK: Then to North Africa –
ET: North Africa.
DK: Sorry I misread this, with 142 Squadron.
ET: Yes.
DK: Which we’ve just covered.
ET: That’s correct.
DK: So you’ve come back then and you did a year’s training –
ET: Yes.
DK: Instructing, and that was at 16 OTU, Upper Heyford [?].
ET: Yes, that was the main base –
DK: Main base.
ET: But as I say, I spent it all at Barford –
DK: Right okay.
ET: St. John.
DK: Right. So then in early 1945 then, you’re now converted onto the Mosquito?
ET: That’s right.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name on the Mosquito?
ET: Yeah, Green, Dave Green.
DK: Dave Green.
ET: We didn’t have a – he was married, the chap in the, well obviously [unclear] he met a girl out there and married her, and so we didn’t spend a lot of social time together at all.
DK: Right.
ET: He didn’t drink at al so l [laughs].
DK: Was that quite unusual in the Air Force then? [Laughs].
ET: Well a bit. But yeah he was a good chap.
DK: Right. And would he have been a pilot officer or –
ET: He was a flight lieutenant.
DK: Flight lieutenant, right. So that’s Flight Lieutenant –
ET: I expect –
DK: Dave Green
ET: If you, if you finished top of your course –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You were normally commissioned, the top. So as he did well, kept him on as an instructor, I suspect he was –
DK: And you say he was an Australian?
ET: No, no, he was English.
DK: English, right okay. So, and you’re in the Mosquitos then. What did you think of the Mosquito as a aircraft?
ET: Oh it was great [laughs], with so much speed.
DK: Mm.
ET: Amazing aircraft because to carry that load, to carry one four thousand pound bomb, was like a big oil tank, you know.
DK: Mm, yeah.
ET: Oil drum, for the business. And course we’d overload tanks on the wings as well, so she was pretty heavy.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But it was wonderful. We used to bomb at twenty-five thousand feet.
DK: Right.
ET: And when the bomb went of course you shot up about three [DK and ET laugh], three hundred feet.
DK: And this was at 571 Squadron?
ET: 571, yeah.
DK: And –
ET: It was very short lived – each squadron, they were created [emphasis], you know, and of course the war, the war finished –
DK: Right.
ET: And they disappeared again.
DK: Can you remember, can you remember where you were based with 571?
ET: Yes, Oakington.
DK: Oakington, right okay.
ET: Which is a big –
DK: Housing estate now [BT laughs].
ET: Oh is it?
DK: Yeah, afraid so. It’s all been knocked down.
ET: But did it, did have all these refugee, I don’t know what they were, refugee centres?
DK: It was for while, yes.
ET: Yeah.
DK: It was a refugee centre –
ET: Yeah.
DK: After the war.
ET: Oh but, but I haven’t mentioned that I – when the war finished, they asked for volunteers to ferry the aircraft back from Canada.
DK: Oh right.
ET: SO I volunteered for that. I got out to Canada, went out by boat, and they said ‘oh you’re not wireless trained’ [laughs].
DK: Mm.
ET: ‘So you can’t do that.’ So I ended up doing about thirty hours in Dakotas.
DK: Oh right [DK and ET laugh].
ET: And I was there for about three months, and came back in a BUAC [?] Liberator.
DK: Right.
ET: [Laughs] to Prestwick, I remember that.
DK: Just, just going back a little bit to your time in the Mosquitos.
ET: Yes.
DK: Can you remember how many operations you did on Mosquitos?
ET: Yes, I did twenty.
DK: Right, so that was thirty operations, Wellingtons in North Africa –
ET: Yes.
DK: And another twenty –
ET: When we were operating on the Mosquito, we had sort of two nights on and one night off.
DK: So what was your role with the Mosquito, because you weren’t really flying with the main Bomber force were you? Were you separate to them?
ET: Well, it was diversionary [emphasis] normally. We went to targets to make them think that the –
DK: Right.
ET: Main force was going there. You had your sneaky little – I went to Berlin thirteen times [laughs].
DK: Right. What was it like flying over Berlin?
ET: Well it’s quite, quite intense. The flak was, you know, they had these predictions, the marshal [?] –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Predicting –
DK: Predicting flak –
ET: You’re very happy if you saw it bursting a bit beneath you, you know, thinking ‘oh they haven’t got it right.’
DK: Mm.
ET: And they had these incredible searchlights, and a marshal would come on you, and then all the sleeves [?] [unclear]. It’s a really lovely feeling [laughs] being all lit up at night.
DK: So when that happened, what did your pilot do? Did he –
ET: He couldn’t do much at all really –
DK: Right.
ET: For that. Because with that height, you know, it would take a long way to –
DK: To get out the searchlight. So you’re, you’re being fired on all the time while you’re in the searchlights?
ET: Well, you might be or you might not, you know. It didn’t – we had a little indicator on the aircraft, a light it was, which was supposed to switch on if you were being attacked.
DK: Yeah. So you, did you fly out with a number of other Mosquitos?
ET: Yes.
DK: And could you see them at night, or –
ET: Well that’s the amazing thing is, there’s all these aircraft together –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You suddenly see, if another one gets lit up by the searchlights you think, ‘I didn’t realise he was there,’ you know.
DK: Mm.
ET: You were like a loose formation I think, you weren’t in flying formation.
DK: Right, so you never saw other aircraft then?
ET: Not very often.
DK: So your role was then, the main force would go off to one target and you’d attack somewhere else to, to draw –
ET: Yes.
DK: Their defences there –
ET: Yes.
DK: Presumably.
ET: Of course, we had the Pathfinders.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Who would – now this, well a secret as it was at the time, called Oboe.
DK: Mhm.
ET: And they used to drop on that, and this thing was amazing. Two different aircraft flares go down, you go down one on top of the other. You’d think it was out of one aircraft, you know.
DK: Right.
ET: This was getting towards the end and –
DK: So when you saw these two flares go down, what was your, what did you have to do then?
ET: Well, I’d, it would tell you, or, if it was some apart [?] it would tell you which one to go for. Well, I had to get down into the bomb bay, and, well about ten, you had a ten minute run in when you had to stay rock steady, you know, and I had to get down into the front and set up the bomb, bomb site.
DK: Right.
ET: ‘Cause one night, an incident was that I got down there and I wasn’t making sense about it to my pilot, and he was very quick at knocking my oxygen off [laughs].
DK: Oh.
ET: And he quickly catched on what was wrong and put the switch –
DK: Right.
ET: Back on.
DK: So he switched the oxygen off then, right.
ET: Yeah just getting, getting down into the – I had a harness [?] on, you know –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Just to –
DK: So, so although you were navigating then, on the Mosquitos you actually acted as a bomb aimer as well then did you?
ET: Yes, I did both jobs.
DK: Right.
ET: Yes, I did a small bombing course with a Mosquito conversion. We did a course on –
DK: Right.
ET: With Oxfords [emphasis] it was this time, which was a training aircraft.
DK: Mm.
ET: Used to bomb in the Wash.
DK: Mm.
ET: You know, the target.
DK: Yeah.
ET: The Wash.
DK: Yeah, so, so you said you went to Berlin thirteen –
ET: I think it was about thirteen –
DK: Thirteen times.
ET: Times if you –
DK: So for the recording, I’m looking at the logbook again so, so 1st of March 1945, Mosquito. You’ve gone from ops to Erfurt, E-R-F-U-R-T.
ET: Erfurt, yeah.
DK: So you’ve got one four thousand pound bomb.
ET: That’s a bomb we carried, just one.
DK: And then 3rd of March forty-five, Wurzburg, one four thousand pound bomb again.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And then it says here Berlin on the 5th of March, the 7th of March, 9th of March, 11th of March, 13th of March. So every other day there for about a week, you were going to Berlin.
ET: Yeah.
DK: So each time it’s one four thousand pound bomb. So those trips to Berlin, can you recall, were those diversional then, or part of a, a main attack on Berlin?
ET: I, I don’t think it was a main attack because we didn’t see other aeroplanes there really.
DK: Right, so the main force has gone off somewhere else?
ET: It’s more a nuisance, you know, morale type thing I think –
DK: Right.
ET: On that.
DK: So you’re also going out there then to, not as diversions as such but to just keep the defences alert?
ET: Keep it going, yeah.
DK: So then 15th of March, Erfurt again [page turns]. [Laughs], and then here 21st of March, Berlin, 23rd of March, Berlin and the 24th of March, Berlin [page turns]. Think the people in Berlin must have got a bit fed up of you turning up [all laugh]. So your, and it says here, so the same pilot, Flight Lieutenant –
ET: Yes.
DK: Is it, was it Dave Green? Dave, Dave Green, was it? Green?
ET: Dave Green, yeah.
DK: Dave Green. And just reading for the recording here –
ET: Yes.
DK: So 4th of April, Magdeburg, and then 8th of April, Berlin, 10th of April, Berlin, 12th of April, Berlin [BT laughs], 13th of April, I’ll spell this out for the recording. It’s S-T-R-A-L-S-U-N-I, or S-U-N-D, Stralsund I think it is. 17th of April, Berlin, 20th of April, Berlin again, 23rd of April, Flensburg [page turns]. So the end must be coming to an end here then. And finally, 25th of April, a power station at Munich.
ET: That’s right, that was the last one.
DK: Mm.
ET: It, I had a son out there [laughs].
DK: Right.
ET: He worked with the, what’s it called, you know, the –
BT: Eurofighter.
ET: Eurofighter.
DK: Oh right, oh okay.
BT: After the war you want to add [DK and BT laugh].
ET: After the war, oh yes.
DK: Yes.
ET: But I said, ‘I probably passed this part,’ I said, ‘I probably bombed [emphasis] that part’ [all laugh].
BT: Yeah.
DK: So years later, your son was working on the Eurofighter in Europe?
ET: He was in the Eurofighter, yeah.
DK: So can I, if I just add those up [page turns]. Where are we, that’s Berlin. One, two, three, four, five [page turns], six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen. Yes as you say, thirteen.
ET: That was –
DK: So out of those twenty operations in Mosquitos, thirteen of them were to Berlin.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And your trips to Berlin, it’s obviously quite a long way. I mean, are you fired on all the way or is it mostly quite dark and quiet?
ET: Bits and pieces.
DK: Mm.
ET: Sometimes flak would come up, you know, you could see it at – you just hoped they hadn’t predicted you, your height.
DK: Hmm. But in a Mosquito you’re a lot higher than another aircraft.
ET: Twenty-five.
DK: Mm, twenty-five thousand feet.
ET: We were, and sometimes we used to get to thirty coming back, you know.
DK: And can you recall, were you ever attacked by German aircraft at all?
ET: Not that I know of.
DK: No.
ET: No.
DK: So as you’re, as you’re approaching the target then, you’ve got down into the –
ET: I get down into the, the bomb bay –
DK: So –
ET: And set up the wind and that –
DK: Yeah.
ET: On the – in fact, so that we could keep together more of the navigation, you’re trying to navigation –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: The leading aircraft might pass back the wind, so as we’re all using the same wind to, to part [?] with our drift and that –
DK: Right.
ET: So as we’d keep –
DK: ‘Cause presumably wind change can really affect your navigation?
ET: Oh yeah, well effects your drift and everything you see, so if you get different winds you could be offsetting differently.
DK: Right, what was it like, if I can ask – you’d obviously have a briefing beforehand –
ET: Yes.
DK: And, and this is in the building at Oakham. What were your feelings like when you saw what your target was going to be?
ET: Well you think –
DK: Presumably they have curtains and they put it back and –
ET: Well they tell you where it is. Oh, the routine was, you take the aircraft up for an air test –
DK: Right.
ET: Up there about fifteen minutes, see it’s alright in the morning, and then, this being the morning, then the afternoon you would go to briefing. Told you where it was, you had to make charts up, you know –
DK: What was your thoughts when you saw Berlin again? Were you –
ET: [Laughs] yeah, ‘can’t you find somewhere else to’ –
DK: So you now know the target, so you’re now doing your charts presumably as the navigator?
ET: Yeah.
DK: So you’re, you’re told the winds and –
ET: Got to put a tracking of where we’re going and that, all these sort of things. Oh yeah, you get briefed by the MET officer of the winds and the weather.
DK: Mhm.
ET: And after that, you had a meal, and then you went back. The worst thing I found was you went back to your billet and then you’d devour [?] away these hours –
DK: Right.
ET: Until, ‘cause it’s always at night of course, you know, until you’re ready for takeoff.
DK: So it came as a bit of a relief then, when you got to the aircraft to takeoff?
ET: Oh yeah, once you get going, you’re too busy really to think about anything else, provided you didn’t swing. It was quite a nasty aircraft to swing in on takeoff –
DK: Mm.
ET: Mosquito, you know, the propellers going the same direction –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Until they got the tail up for a bit of –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Control.
DK: And your pilot then, Dave Green, was he a good pilot?
ET: Yes [emphasis]. But just as I say, he was a quiet chap so I didn’t really see much of him –
DK: Right.
ET: Apart from work which, which was fine [laughs].
DK: But did you – I’m presuming you’d have to work well [emphasis] together then.
ET: Oh yes.
DK: So you worked well together?
ET: Yeah.
DK: We’ve covered what you did over the targets, so you’ve come back after the operation and your landing. How did you feel then as you got back?
ET: Relieved once you got down but of course you’re coming back, you’re all coming back together aren’t you? In these airfield, the seconds [?] they overlapped.
DK: Yeah.
ET: So it was a bit dodgy at times. We landed once at the wrong airport [laughs].
DK: Really?
ET: You know, the wrong way, direction was the same.
DK: Yeah.
ET: We ended up at Wyton [laughs].
DK: Right.
ET: Anyway, they just briefed us and, and that was it. I think we took off in the morning to get back to base [DK and ET laugh].
DK: So you, once you’ve landed then, what’s the procedures then?
ET: Oh you go for a briefing.
DK: Right, a debriefing [emphasis].
ET: De –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Debriefing.
DK: And, and who would take that?
ET: Intelligence.
DK: Mm.
ET: Officers.
DK: Mm, and what sort of questions did they ask?
ET: Did you hit the target, did you think you hit the target?
DK: Right.
ET: We used to take a, a film [emphasis]. Some were better than others, you know –
DK: Mm.
ET: Of the target area and when it happened.
DK: So a photo would be taken when you –
ET: A photo when you pressed the plunger for, to release the bomb a photograph would be taken –
DK: Oh right.
ET: A little later.
DK: Right. So you’ve got back then and you’ve got feelings of relief. What happened then, you just went to bed?
ET: No.
DK: Ah.
ET: Went for a meal.
DK: Right, okay [DK and ET laugh].
ET: And a beer.
DK: Mm.
ET: And a few beers [DK laughs], otherwise I never slept really, you know.
DK: Right.
ET: It’s all night [?], but oh, it was a relief [emphasis] –
DK: Mm.
ET: Really. I mean we were very lucky in the Mosquito, we didn’t have near the number of losses –
DK: Mm.
ET: That the – the loss that I saw, well, the loss that I saw was at – one aircraft completed [?], he was up on his air test and of course he came and tried to beat up the, what we called the flight hock [?] [emphasis], you know, where our ground crew were.
DK: Yep.
ET: And these, these overload tanks in the wing. He hit a tree and knocked one tank off, and the aircraft just [unclear].
DK: Cartwheeled.
ET: I watched this –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Just rolling [emphasis].
DK: Yeah.
ET: And it went straight in the front of the, the sick quarters.
DK: Mm.
ET: That was a complete waste of lives. Another accident we had was at the – one chap lost an engine and he came roaring in far too fast. Oh no sorry, he spun [emphasis] in and of course, they were killed. It happened a second time to another person, and he thought ‘I’m not going to stall’ [laughs], so he came rolling in too fast and [taps four times] wasn’t able to stop at the far end. And then the disciplinary thing at Sheffield, so they sent them to Sheffield. [Unclear] fly –
DK: Right.
ET: But just for discipline [laughs].
DK: But at least he survived that one.
ET: He survived that one, yeah.
DK: But got into trouble for it, yeah. Okay that’s, that’s great. Just ask you, after all these years how do you look back at your time in, in Bomber Command? How do you look back on that?
ET: I don’t really look back on it all that much nowadays.
DK: Mm.
ET: I think – well I was occupied, of course seeing an Air Force and getting in transport we had the Berlin Airlift –
DK: Right.
ET: For a year.
DK: So you got involved with the Berlin Airlift then did you?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so –
ET: I did three hundred lifts on that.
DK: Oh right. So you’ve, let, you’ve – so just reading here, that’s three hundred and two lifts –
ET: Yeah.
DK: To Berlin.
ET: That took a year.
DK: And, and what aircraft were you flying?
ET: York.
DK: Right, the Avro York. So what, what was Berlin like when you, you went there after the war?
ET: Oh they were very, very grateful that we’re keeping away from the Russians I think was a big thing, you know, there.
DK: Mm. ‘Cause it’s, it’s kind of strange ‘cause one moment you’re dropping bombs [BT laughs] and then the next –
ET: Three years later, yeah.
DK: You’re giving them food.
ET: That’s right. It’s amazing when people have nothing, you know. If anybody had a bar of soap or something like that –
DK: Mm.
ET: It was like a gold [emphasis] to them, you know.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Things like that.
DK: So what kind of stuff were you carrying in the Avro Yorks then?
ET: Oh you name it, everything.
DK: Food and –
ET: There was coal.
DK: Right.
ET: Actually the aircraft – I forget they were a lot heavier when they finished, it was all this coal dust.
DK: Mm.
ET: They erm, hay for horses, all the natural stuff that people eat.
DK: Right.
ET: Anything like that.
DK: So flying into Berlin then, did you have to stick to certain routes or –
ET: Yes –
DK: ‘Cause you’re flying over –
ET: The Northern – we used to go up north and then go down from a northern corridor, and come back at a centre corridor.
DK: Right.
ET: ‘Cause basically, Onsturfrun [?]
DK: So you went to Onsturfrun Gateaux [?].
ET: Onsturfrun [?] to Gateaux [?] yeah, yeah that’s right.
DK: Right.
ET: And –
DK: So they’re just continuous flights then, going –
ET: Yeah.
DK: In the northern route and coming out the southern route.
ET: Oh it was a shambles in this case. We had lots of different speed aircraft, you know. There was, there was Yorks, there was the Dakotas –
DK: Mm.
ET: Valettas, and what was happening, supposed to go off on waves but one wave was [laughs] overtaking the other wave, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: And things like that. It’s amazing there weren’t more accidents than there were, but after they got it settled it worked very well. You just went along, you got in. If you missed, if you couldn’t get in you came straight back, you didn’t, you couldn’t go round again, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: To Gateaux [?]I mean.
DK: So you, you had to land first time?
ET: You had to land, that’s right.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But it worked very well. And we went down to two lifts. Initially we had to do three lifts. It was a tremendously long day ‘cause you had to wait for the aircraft to get ready and complete your three lifts.
DK: Mm.
ET: That was it, but they put it down to two [emphasis] so we did a night shift or a day –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Day shift. It was well organised towards the end.
DK: Was it easier for you as a navigator, doing that then, because they –
ET: Oh I didn’t do very – there wasn’t very much navigation at all.
DK: Right.
ET: For – you just, it was a corridor, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: And took me an hour coming back ‘cause you flew over quite a bit of Russian territory coming in.
DK: Mm.
ET: The only, the odd fighter used to come and have a look at you [laughs]. Think ‘I hope you go away again,’ you know.
DK: Oh right [ET laughs]. So after that then, you’ve remained with transport and –
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Just looking, so you were in Valettas, Varsitys, the Beverlys?
ET: Yes.
DK: So that was, you went out to Aden then, and –
ET: Yes.
DK: And Iran? Yes.
ET: Yeah, did two years in Aden.
DK: Was that during the conflict out there or –
ET: There, there was a bit of conflict –
DK: Yeah.
ET: But [coughs] there was a lot of trouble in – what do you call that country?
DK: Yemen?
ET: Yemen.
DK: Yemen, yeah and Aden, Aden is Yemen I think, isn’t it? Oman?
ET: There’s another one I think, further east.
DK: Right. So, so what were you doing there? Was it supplying –
ET: Oh just loads of [?] – it was wonderful, a place called Macierz [?] –
DK: Mm.
ET: Which was about eight thousand feet high, and from Aden was very steamy, you know [laughs], and you get up there, your stockings fall down because it’s so dry up there.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Byt they’ve got stuff in there you didn’t know if you could get before, you know.
DK: No.
ET: Like quite big trucks and that type of thing.
DK: So what was, what was the Beverley [emphasis] like as an aircraft then? They’re quite big, quite bulky things aren’t they?
ET: Oh dear [DK laughs]. It was slow [emphasis], it was noisy [emphasis]. In fact the navigator’s table used to be on an angle, you had to, you had to [tapping] flatten it and you had to [tapping], they tried to [?] bounce on it, you know [DK laughs]. And that had a fixed undercarriage, and if you got into icy conditions, these legs used to ice up which meant you even go slower [emphasis] than [DK and ET laugh]. But it had this great capability of short landing in –
DK: Yeah.
ET: In getting into these airfields, you know.
DK: So then you’ve gone onto the Britannia.
ET: That’s right.
DK: So what, what was the Britannia like?
ET: Oh it was lovely.
DK: Yeah
ET: Yeah, I did five years on.
DK: And what was that, mostly trooping flights was it? So whereabouts did you use to go to?
ET: All over the place [coughs]. Did a lot to Norway because the commander was a not [?] – always went there from January to March –
DK: Mm.
ET: They go for their winter training –
DK: Right.
ET: So we’d lots of flights there and back. That was an adventure [?]. We had a lot of flights out to Woomera –
DK: Right.
ET: You know, the atomic –
DK: Oh right, the atomic bomb tests.
ET: It was a little box.
DK: Oh.
ET: Didn’t know what it was [DK and ET laugh]. But we used to go down to Adelaide.
DK: Probably best not to ask [all laugh].
ET: Well, quite a lot.
DK: Yeah.
ET: When all these tests were going on.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And just [coughs] –
DK: You, you didn’t witness any of the tests then did you?
ET: Oh no.
DK: No, no.
ET: We used to use an Edinburgh field recorder, it was a RAAF base. That went on quite a lot. We did trips to Singapore and back –
DK: Mhm.
ET: But when it first started, you know, there was no slipping [emphasis] crews –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You just had a – everyday it took five [emphasis] days to get to Singapore, you had two days off there and five days to come back. And I think what a waste of aircraft it was really [DK laughs]. I suppose we had so many we didn’t bother. That was on the Yorks [emphasis] then.
DK: Yeah [ET laughs]. So finally you’ve become ATS navigator instructor.
ET: That was on Belfasts.
DK: So you’re, you’ve – and then 53 Squadron on the Belfasts?
ET: That’s right.
DK: So, so what was the Belfast like as an aircraft?
ET: Oh it was nice, nice. Well lovely, very palatial for the crew.
DK: Mm.
ET: Just the pilots could get in from the outside of the aircraft into the seat, you know, being a big aircraft –
DK: Right.
ET: It was very palatial for the crew.
DK: So what sort of loads would you have on the Belfasts?
ET: All sorts, helicopters.
DK: Yeah?
ET: Tanks, just stuff like that.
BT: You took the Concord engines didn’t you as well? Concord engines.
ET: Oh I had a big, yeah. Oh my big flight was I went – we carried an engine for Concord once. It went on a world tour.
DK: Oh right.
ET: Well, went to Far East sales pitch. It never needed the engine [laughs].
DK: Right, so it was just a spare –
ET: But it was a few pictures somewhere of that. Is it in there [shuffling].
BT: Yeah that’s the one, that’s the Concord.
DK: Ah.
ET: There’s one with the tours [?] on.
BT: I’ll have a look [ET laughs].
DK: That’s the original prototype isn’t it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: DBSST.
ET: That’s right.
BT: Oh wow.
DK: Okay, so I’ll just finish this off. So you retired in 1978 as a squadron leader.
ET: That’s right.
DK: Ah.
ET: They eventually decided to promote me after [laughs] –
DK: So they promoted you just before you retired?
ET: Yes.
DK: Ah [laughs]. Okay, well I’ll stop that there because I’m conscious of you talking for a whole hour there, but thanks very much for that. I’ll switch that off now.
ET: Well –
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ATaylorEC170928
PTaylorEC1701
Title
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Interview with Eric Taylor
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:54:10 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Date
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2017-09-28
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Eric Taylor joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 and served as a navigator. He served in North Africa and completed a tour of operations against targets in Italy before becoming an instructor in England. He describes the differences in instrumentation between the North African and English aircraft, such as the Gee navigational aid. He flew nuisance and diversion operations in Mosquitos over places such as Wurzburg, Erfurt and Berlin thirteen times. He was involved in the Berlin Airlift and then spent a couple of years serving in Aden and the Middle East, and remained in the Air Force until 1978 when he retired as a squadron leader.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Algeria
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Tunisia
England--Cambridgeshire
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Râs el Ma
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Erfurt
Germany--Würzburg
Tunisia--Qayrawān
North Africa
Contributor
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Katie Gilbert
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1943
1945
142 Squadron
16 OTU
571 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
civil defence
crewing up
Gee
Home Guard
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Oakington
RAF Upper Heyford
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1193/11766/AWhiteEJ161027.2.mp3
3926b8da0bcdd604b2a2db30b9c6032f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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White, Ernest James
E J White
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Ernest James White (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 9, 61 and 97 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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White, EJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So it’s turned up. So, it’s David Kavanagh on the 27th of October 2016 interviewing Mr James White at his home. I’ll just put that there. If I keep looking over I’m just checking to make sure it’s going.
JW: It’s very neat.
DK: It is isn’t it. Ok.
JW: It’s picking us both up is it?
DK: It should be picking us both up. Yeah.
JW: That’s alright then.
DK: Just to make sure.
JW: Well I want to tell you about, I’m going bang in to the middle. We can go back to the beginning later on.
DK: Yeah. Ok.
JW: This one sets the scene for the whole lot really.
DK: Ok.
JW: Now, how far shall I go back? I’d better give you a run. First of all I was posted to 44 Squadron at Waddington first of all. I was only there four days and they, they posted me to Syerston. 61 Squadron. I was, I did about six ops with them and then they posted me to Woodhall Spa, 97 Squadron. I did a few there. Then I got crewed-up with Bob Fletcher. And then one day sitting in the crew room the squadron commander comes in, got attention, he says, ‘Right. I’ve got an announcement to make. Every one of you have been, have volunteered for Pathfinder duties. We’re going to move down to Bourn in Cambridge.’
DK: Right.
JW: That was great that was. So the thing was as a, as we were now in 8 Group different rules applied apparently. Don Bennett.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Was quite a force to be reckoned with, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He did. He had a hell of a time with Sir Arthur from what I’ve read. Any rate, what happened was I’d done about sixteen operations altogether with odd crews before I was crewed-up. Then we moved down to Cambridge. Now, in Pathfinder force there is the normal tour is thirty operations. Which you know of course don’t you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Well, when I got to my twenty ninth the crew, the target was Hamburg actually, coming back I said to the pilot, I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘This is my last trip and it’s your last trip next time.’ He said, ‘Yeah. We’re all going next time.’ I said, ‘Right, I’m going to volunteer to do another one so we all go together.’ This you’ll understand is the spirit of crew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At that time you see. It’s madness really, you know. It really is madness.
DK: Yeah.
JW: To volunteer for an extra one. It was accepted. So I stayed on. And then they brought out this business of, in 8 Group if you’re in the Pathfinder force every operation you did counted as two. So instead of doing thirty you did, you did fifteen. Ok.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Right. I’m on my fifteenth now. I’m taking on now. Now this, sorry that was the crews at hand over. Right. Coming back I said to Bob, I said, ‘I’m really due to finish but I’ll stay on. I’ll volunteer.’ He said, ‘You can’t.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘Because the gunnery leader has taken you off the crew list already.’ Before we’d even, before we took off you’re off. ‘He knew this was your last one and he’s put himself in your place. So he’s going to fly in your place.’ I was only a flight sergeant at that time and you don’t argue with a squadron leader do you?
DK: No.
JW: So off I went. Well, I did go off actually. I went home actually. I came back. The next morning I got to Cambridge station, came out the station and I saw an RAF truck there. I said, ‘That’s funny. What’s he doing there? I’ll get a lift back into camp.’ So I went there. It was our favourite driver there. I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ He said, ‘I’ve come to meet you.’ Well that’s very odd. I don’t get that privilege. That sort of privilege.
DK: No.
JW: I said, ‘Why? He said, ‘Well, I’ve got some bad news for you. The crew didn’t come back last night.’
DK: Oh God.
JW: Because the gunnery leader insisted in flying in my place.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He’s the one who got killed. Not me. Now, that’s very strange.
DK: It is.
JW: Now, I’ve gone over this over and over again. I dream about it sometimes. I fantasise on it. The thing was, you see my position was right on top of the aircraft. Mid-upper gunner there. It so happened that I was the only member of the crew that had an anti-glare panel because I got kitted out somewhere else apart from them. Now, what happened, I saw, I saw the captain afterwards, after the war when he came out of the prisoner of war camp. He survived and he told me exactly what happened. He said they got caught in the master searchlight. You’ve heard of this I expect, have you?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Light blue and, you know and they got coned. Now, he’s, he’s an extraordinary pilot that man was. Extraordinary. And he got out of it. He flew out of it. Right. Quite incredible. Now, the thing is he told me that fighter that got them came down from above because he was going down you see. He’d come down like, which is extraordinary unusual because they usually come from underneath.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We are told that. We are told at the briefing they attack from underneath. They introduced that technique. The Luftwaffe at the time. So I’m sitting there in this. Now, I’ve got the anti-glare so when the searchlight caught us, kept down. I can still see. They can’t.
DK: Yeah.
JW: They were all blinded. They couldn’t see. Couldn’t see a thing. Couldn’t see the dials on the dash board. But the pilot, as I say he was brilliant. A brilliant pilot he was and he got them out of it but when he got to the, he got out of it, the searchlights, right, but when he got to the bottom he’d lost so much height he’s got to get back up again.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So he starts climbing like this and that’s when the fighter pounced on them. Now, I’m sitting on top. Anti-glare. I can see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now had I been there instead of this other chap. Would I have seen that fighter?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because we had quite a good crew. Well, an excellent crew actually and if I’d said to the pilot, ‘Dive to starboard,’ he would have gone down pfft. Down. He wouldn’t have been shot down probably. We don’t know that.
DK: No.
JW: We can’t tell that.
DK: Is it, is it something, were all the crew killed or [pause] yeah.
JW: But it does haunt you. It does. It is. I know just how close I was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: See. Having volunteered to do the bloody job he took me off. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t accept my offer. He went on it himself.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And he got, he got immediate. He was killed instantly by the fighter. And the navigator and the other gunner, the rear gunner they were all killed.
DK: Right.
JW: The other four escaped with parachute.
DK: Oh right.
JW: And became prisoners of war.
DK: Right. So, so four survived and three were killed.
JW: And I’ve seen them. Well, I haven’t see Jack Beesley. I’ve got a picture of him there. I’ll show you in a minute. And the engineer. But I’ve been in touch with the wireless operator for a long time but when they were in the prisoner of war camp I knew his wife because I used to visit. They live at Grantham.
DK: Right.
JW: Now, I was in Scotland at the time so I was, I did as many journeys as I could down to London. Getting off at Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Go and see them. Getting on the train and carrying on you see. That was very handy.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I kept that up for a long time. in fact, when, after the war when I was stationed in Germany at Munchen Gladbach I invited them out and they came out and spent a fortnight in Germany with me.
DK: Oh right. That’s nice.
JW: With his, with his two children.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So we had a close contact. That was our crew you see. You’ve probably heard stories like this before.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But this was absolutely true. Hang on a minute. Just a minute.
DK: What I’ll do, I’ll just stop there. I’m —
JW: Ok.
[recording paused]
DK: Put that back up there. Ok.
JW: You’ll be interested in this.
DK: Ok. Ah.
JW: Now, after the war, as soon as the war was over the RAF sent, sent Lancasters over to Germany to bring back the released prisoners of war.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now, that’s one of our Lancasters at 97 Squadron.
DK: Right.
JW: That, that was our bomb aimer Jack Beesley.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I don’t know who the other chaps are. I don’t remember the other chaps.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But from that picture I personally get a really strong feeling they were the men I knew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not the RAF today. These are the ones we knew. That, that encapsulates the spirit.
DK: Right.
JW: You’ve got there.
DK: Just for the benefit of the recording — so this is Lancaster PB422 of 97 Squadron.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And the person there is your —
JW: Jack Beesley.
DK: Jack Beesley. And he was your bomb aimer and that’s when he was returning.
JW: That’s right.
DK: As a POW.
JW: Yes. Yes.
DK: So I see there, the POWs have put various bits of graffiti on the aircraft.
JW: That’s [laughs] very typical I’m afraid. We, we were an irresponsible lot you know. Really.
DK: Did you go on any of the trips to pick up the prisoners?
JW: Sorry?
DK: Did you go on any of the trips to pick up the prisoners of war?
JW: Not me. No. I was out of Bomber Command.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I was in Training Command at the time.
DK: Ok. That’s a great photo isn’t it?
JW: Yeah. It’s a good one that.
DK: I always find photos like this where you see prisoners of war their faces always look very drawn. Very —
JW: Yeah.
DK: You can see he looks very, even there looks a bit tense.
JW: Actually I was told before they came home that he’d got religion while there.
DK: Right.
JW: It was the strain, you know. Things like that.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But I think, I think he probably got out of it at that time.
DK: That’s alright.
JW: The relief of being released.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Released from prisoner of war camp must have been enormous mustn’t it?
DK: It must have been. Yeah.
JW: Something I never experienced of course.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But they’re the chaps, these here, they’re the typical of what the, what the crews were in in Bomber Command days. In the war you know.
DK: They look so young.
JW: Yeah. Aren’t they? Yeah.
DK: I’m assuming he’s the pilot then who’s flown him back.
JW: Yeah.
DK: He’s shaking hands. That one.
JW: Yeah. It’s amazing isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: I think that’s a very good picture.
DK: Lovely picture that.
JW: Tells us an awful lot doesn’t it?
DK: Yeah. What, what another thing I wanted to ask just stepping back a bit and that was just for interest what were you actually doing before the war?
JW: What was I doing before the war?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Not much. I was a wages clerk with the Co-op.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: CWS Headquarters in London.
DK: Yeah. So what, what made you want you join the Air Force then?
JW: Well, it’s a long long story really. It started way back when I was, when I was a young lad. I had an uncle that lived at Mill Hill which is high ground overlooking Hendon Airfield.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And his house was on a bit there and I used to love going there because I used to see what was going on in the airfield down there. I think that’s where it started. But later on I got around to making models. I made a, I made a flying model of a Hurricane.
DK: Oh right.
JW: Out of balsa wood and things like that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it was always with me I think. Going back. Not overwhelming or anything like that at all but an interest. And, as a matter of fact, just after I left school at fifteen [pause] a bit older than that I was working at CWS, that’s right. I was in London. I went, I went to the Air Ministry which those days was down [pause] You don’t — no, you wouldn’t know the Stoll Theatre, would you? It’s gone.
DK: No. No. No.
JW: Demolished. It’s not where it is now. It wasn’t in Whitehall. It was down this road, down there, down the end there. I forget the name of it. I think it was called High Holborn come to think of it.
DK: High Holborn. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Anyway, I went there and asked about entry into the boy scheme at Halton. Commonly known as the Halton Brats.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And they gave me some books and papers and things to study for the entrance to them. Took them away. Got home then. Within a week or two war was declared and of course the scheme was stopped.
DK: Oh right.
JW: So I never got to it. The thing is had that not happened, if I’d gone to there and become a wireless operator what would I have been today? [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
JW: The fate plays some funny tricks doesn’t it?
DK: Yes. Yeah. So the war started then and presumably you were then called up. And then —
JW: Well, I didn’t get called up actually.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: What happened was that [pause] I’m trying to think of a reason but there was no reason. I just, I was up in London. I was working in London. So I took the afternoon off and went to the Joint Recruiting Centre at Edgeware.
DK: Right. Yeah.
JW: I went down there to Edgeware. But my people at the Co-op, they were very understanding. In fact I was one of the last of the males in the office left. All been called up, you see. I went up there to join the Navy.
DK: Oh right.
JW: Because my father was in the Royal Marines you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: So it was the natural thing to do. Now, this house was a requisitioned house and I remember it very clearly in my mind now. It was a long, you open the front door and there was a long passage down there. I walked down the passage. On the left hand side was the Navy office. On the right hand side was the RAF. I was just stepping over the threshold of the Navy one to join the Navy and there was this petty officer in front of a group of chaps there. He was bawling his heads off at them. That’s not my scene. So I turned around quickly and went in the other one. So that’s how I came to join the Air Force.
DK: It’s sort of fate again isn’t it? If it hadn’t have been —
JW: And they took my details down, sent me home and said, ‘Well, we’ll get in touch with you,’ and they did. They sent me a railway warrant to go to Oxford and I went, the Oxford Selection Board. I was down as training for a pilot. We all trained, all go for a pilot because nobody ever gets there. But we all go for a pilot. I went there, had a selection and they basically whittled it down, got me down as a wireless operator which was roughly what I was going to do in the original. So they said right, now I’ll give you another paper and said — oh I was sworn in. So I’m now a member. This is June 1941. Sent me home. Said, ‘We’ll call you forward.’ They did. They called me forward to report at Padgate up in Lancashire on December the 24th. Christmas. Christmas Eve [laughs]
DK: Oh dear.
JW: Any rate, I’d got the railway warrant so I got on the train. It was the first time I’d been on one of these trains and, I’d never done this before. In the compartment there was a couple there with their daughter. I remember that girl. Yeah. I never, I can’t remember her name. And of course those days there was no, not much catering on the trains. You took your own with you. They had their parcels and I had my parcel and we the three of us got together there and we, you know had a nice journey up there during which the lady said, said, ‘Are you going to Padgate?’ I said, ‘Yes’ She said, ‘Well, that’s not all that far from where we live.’ What’s the name of the place? It was a double barrelled name. I’ve forgotten it now. It’s quite a big place. She says, she wrote the address down and gave it to me. I put it in my pocket. She said, ‘If you can get off at Christmas come to us and you can come and stay with us over Christmas.’ I said, ‘Oh right,’ I thought. I got to Padgate and went through all the things there. Kit. I drew my uniform the morning, the next morning and then had to go to the tailors for alterations like they do. And then the corporal came out and bawled his head off and said, ‘Any of you chaps here live within fifty miles of here, can get home without using public transport you can have a weekend pass. Put your hands up.’ Up went my hand [laughs] I’m a bugger, you know really [laughs] He said, ‘Where?’ I said, ‘Newton le Willows.’ That was it. Newton le Willows. Newton le Willows. ‘Oh yeah, that’s alright.’ He said, ‘Right, he said, ‘Well, go to the guardroom at about 4 o’clock and pick up your pass. You go to, go to the tailors. I’ve given the tailor, I shall be giving the tailor priority for your uniform to be done. So you can go and get that first. When you get the uniform put it on.’ Went to the guardroom. It was dark by this time. Got to the guardroom. Got my pass. I walked out through the gate and there was a bus stop there. I said, ah good. A bus pulled up. He said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said ‘Warrington.’ Warrington. ‘Well you’re going the wrong way. It’s that way. We’re going that way.’ Oh. They put me on the right bus. I got to Warrington. I asked the way. They got me on a bus to Newton le Willows and they said, ‘Where do you want?’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got Newton le Willows.’ There was a woman sitting in front of me. Yeah. She turned around, she said. ‘Let me have a look at that. See if I can find it. Oh I know them.’ she said. ‘I’ll put you off at the right place.’ ‘Oh thank you.’ Got off there. Went to the front door. Knocked on the door. There was a pause. There was lot of furniture being moved around and everything. I wasn’t used to this at all. They said, ‘Come around the other side,’ but they, they entered their house through the side instead of in the front door.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s reserved for weddings and funerals. I spent the Christmas, I spent Christmas with them.
DK: Oh right.
JW: They gave me a couple of presents. A jar of Brylcreem.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And a packet of razor blades [laughs]
DK: Wonderful.
JW: [laughs] The great shame is because so many things were happening fast.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It skipped my mind. I should have written and thanked them for the way. I should have done that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it’s my sorrow that I didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I should have done. It’s very sad that was but then people were used to that sort of thing in wartime. And after, I was off to Blackpool in no time at all. Doing drill on the streets. God. [laughs] That’s another, that’s nothing to do with 97 Squadron. Nothing to do with Bomber Command at all. Oh dear.
DK: So at Blackpool then was that all the square bashing going on down there?
JW: That’s right, yeah. Yeah.
DK: Is that something you enjoyed or —
JW: I didn’t mind it at all really.
DK: No.
JW: You know the Air Force fitted around my shoulders like it was made for me. I never had any doubt whatsoever at any time.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And I’ve been very lucky. Well, what is luck and what is otherwise? It’s hard to say sometimes isn’t it?
DK: It certainly is. So from Blackpool then can you remember where you went on to after that?
JW: Well, they sent me down to Bournemouth [laughs]
DK: Oh.
JW: With seven other chaps. A holding unit. Now, at Bournemouth was Number 3 PRC personnel something. Reception. Personnel Reception Committee, Centre. This was, this was formed for the Empire Training Scheme. The chaps that had gone to Canada for training. They came back, a lot of them were already commissioned when they came back. They were commissioned before they came back.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So they sent them to Bournemouth to hold there until they could allocate them to whatever squadron. Where they were going to, you see. But I was there with these other chaps and we were just airman. Erks. I had a great time there actually. Oh yeah. I started life in the Air Force as an officer’s batman would you believe? [laughs]
DK: Really.
JW: It’s a good thing. I saw it from the beginning. I got a lot, a lot of experience I got there. Oh yes I did. Any rate from there they called me up one day on parade and they said report to so and so I went to the clothing section and they kitted me out with all the flying gear but it was all recycled from chaps that had been shot down and their families had sent their uniforms up. There was all stuff there and I got all the old stuff. I had Gosport tubing, you know. Before they had microphones. And, oh dear, and they gave me an extra kit bag. So I’ve got two kit bags now. From there they sent me to London. To a centre. Viceroy Court it was called. It was across the road from the entrance to the London Zoo.
DK: Right.
JW: And the London Zoo Restaurant was requisitioned for the RAF meals there. We were there, I was there for about two, only two, two or three days there. Then I, then they sorted me out and I was off to training at Morpeth.
DK: Right.
JW: Number 4 Gunnery School at Morpeth.
DK: So, at this point it was already, it had already been decided you were training as a gunner then.
JW: Well, when I went, when I was at Padgate we had tests there.
DK: Right.
JW: I got through the written test easy. But when it came to simulation and they give you earphones and they said, ‘We’re going to send a series of Morse signals,’ beep beep and another one beep beep. ‘Now, all you’ve got to do is mark on that sheet there whether they were the same or different.’
DK: Right.
JW: I buggered that one up [laughs] ‘We can’t put you for training for wireless operator because your Morse is not good enough.’ Fair enough. ‘So you’ve got two options. You can either re-muster to an air gunner or you can go home because you’re a volunteer.’
DK: Right.
JW: I hadn’t gone all that way to go home. That was ridiculous.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I said, ‘Right. I can be an air gunner.’ They said, ‘Righto.’ So off I go to Blackpool with all the other ground staff members to do the initial training which was quite an experience but not something you’d be interested in.
DK: No. Yeah.
JW: It’s not your, I’ll not take your time up. Eventually I went down to Bournemouth as I said and then went up to London. And then I went to Morpeth. Air Gunnery School. It so happened my uncle lived in Morpeth. That was handy [laughs] Anyway, we finished that training.
DK: So, if we just step back a bit. What was your training as a gunner? How did they train gunners?
JW: Well, we had, it was, it was a grass airfield.
DK: Right.
JW: It was a temporary thing there and the aircraft we had there nobody’s ever heard of them. They were called a Blackburn Botha.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was a swine and in the middle of winter and they, they were started with the, what they called a Coffman cartridge. A cartridge they put in the engine to fire it.
DK: Yeah
JW: And the damn thing wouldn’t start, you know. We had a hell of a bloody time but we got through that all right. And —
DK: So were you actually on, on the aircraft.
JW: Oh yes.
DK: Firing at targets.
JW: Oh yeah. We had target practice.
DK: Right.
JW: We had a Lysander. We were towing a drogue.
DK: Right.
JW: Way back there. And they told you mustn’t touch the guns until that Lysander’s passed. You see, you aim the drogue [laughs] They counted the holes after to see what score you got. So anyway, I got through there quite well apparently. Oh yes. From there along with another, a little cockney chap called George Dillon who we chummed up quite well. He was quite a lad he was. And we, both of us, this is where the strangeness comes in. We were both posted together to 44 Squadron at Waddington but we were given a weekend off. Now, a third chap, he came into this in that he was getting married that weekend. On this weekend leave. He invited us to his wedding. He lived in South London near where George lived. So I said, ‘Oh ok. I’ll come with you.’ I went. We went there. I don’t remember too much about the party. I don’t know. I must have slept, slept in the house there with them. I don’t remember. It was a bit vague. I think, I think I was a bit punch drunk at the time. I was in uniform at the time.
DK: It must have been a good party.
JW: White flash in the. Under training. Anyway, we were both posted to Waddington. We arrived, we got the train up on Monday to Lincoln and, ‘What do we do now? Just a minute.’ So I went to see the station master. ‘Can I use your phone?’ [laughs] Cheeky bugger wasn’t I? I rang the station. ‘I said MT section?’ Oh yes. I said, ‘You’ve got two people here at the station want transport to Waddington.’ ‘Right. We’ll send a truck down for you.’ They sent this little canvas covered 500 weight truck down and we went in there. Now, we got our tapes on now. I was a sergeant now you know. And went to the officer’s err sergeant’s mess. In our innocence and ignorance we both walked in to the sergeant’s mess. It so happened that the station warrant officer whose king on the station. He’s the station commander’s right hand man. He’s a very important man. He was sitting on a chair in the entrance there as we walked in and he bawled us out straight away. ‘Out.’ ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘You don’t go in your sergeant’s mess with your hat on.’ First black [laughs] At any rate, the next morning we were going to see the squadron commander. That’s that chap who was in the daylight raid on [pause] the only daylight raid the Lancasters ever did.
DK: Yeah. Nettleton.
JW: Diesel works. What’s the name of the place?
DK: Yeah. The MAN diesel works.
JW: He got quite famous actually.
DK: Is it Nettleton, wasn’t it?
JW: Nettleton. You’re right. Absolutely. I could never remember his name. Walked into his office and he had his cronies around him there. He had just got the VC. He was as happy in the clouds of course. Walked in. He said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘New arrivals.’ I said, ‘Yes sir. Could we have some leave please.’ [laughs] That was a thing I should have, ‘We haven’t had any leave since we finished training.’ He said, ‘Don’t you know there’s a war on?’ I said, ‘Oh. Oh is that why we’re here.’ He didn’t like me one little bit. Two days later I was posted [laughs] along with George. George, he was with me. We went to Syerston. 61 Squadron. That was a different kettle of fish altogether. Group Captain Walker, Gus Walker, he was the station commander.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He was a splendid chap. He’s what is known as an airman’s officer.
DK: Right.
JW: He’s with the lads. And I was there for a few months. Went there in September and I left there [pause] around about, around about Christmas time to go to Woodhall Spa. But we were wheeled in front of the station commander, Gus Walker. He was a very nice chap. He got off, up from his desk. Walked over to meet us.
DK: That’s nice.
JW: You don’t get that very often.
DK: No.
JW: That’s Gus. That set the scene.
DK: Because he lost an arm later on didn’t he? He was.
JW: I’m coming to that.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I was there.
DK: Oh right. Oh Christ.
JW: Yeah. Yes.
DK: So just stepping back a bit at 44 Squadron you hadn’t flown any operations at this point.
JW: No.
DK: So you’re now at 61.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And is this where your first operations took place?
JW: And I’ll never forget it.
DK: Right. Ok.
JW: It was Munich.
DK: Right.
JW: And I was terrified. Absolutely petrified. You see, try and imagine this you see. I was, I was what was called a spare and it filled any gap in a crew when a chap dropped out for some reason or other.
DK: Oh right. So you weren’t allocated an actual crew at this point.
JW: No.
DK: No.
JW: At any rate I was in the crew room there and my name wasn’t on the list to fly so, fair enough. And this chap came to me, he said, ‘Oh, you’re a spare.’ I said, ‘That’s right.’ ‘Well come with us to do a night flying test.’ Oh I don’t mind doing that. So I got my parachute. My parachute and the harness. Went out to the aircraft. We had a little run around Lincoln and that. Lovely. I was getting out the aircraft to get my stuff, he said, ‘I shouldn’t bother taking it out. You’ll be alright for tonight.’ ‘What?’ [laughs] I didn’t know their names. They didn’t know me even. There we are. I’m a stranger sitting there all on my own. My first op. And as far as I was concerned every, every ack-ack gun in Germany was stationed at Munich and firing at me personally. It was murder.
DK: And your position then is as the mid-upper gunner.
JW: Yeah. I did have a spell in the rear turret. I didn’t like it in the rear turret.
DK: No. So as a mid-upper gunner then, just for the tape, what, what’s your actual role there? Are you sort of a spare pair of eyes? Are you there making sure that everything was safe and ok? Looking out for dangers.
JW: Yeah. Well I suppose you could say, as it happened, only because it’s happened that way all I was, was an observer. I didn’t fired a bullet. In forty five operations I never fired a bullet. I never saw a German fighter. I never saw anybody. It’s pitch dark up there you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You know, you know. Your only enemy was your fatigue and the thing was trying to keep awake. It was terrible trying to keep awake and I evolved a method where I would count shooting stars. You’d be surprised how many shooting stars you get.
DK: Right.
JW: I used to count them and that kept me awake. Oh dear me. We had a flask of coffee along with our pack there we picked up in the sergeant’s mess. And one night, I remember true as I sit here, it was winter. That was bloody cold. Forty degrees below zero and a bit draughty too. Although I was in a Perspex bowl like thing where the joins are the wind finds it, finds a crack.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And you get this pfft on the back of your neck. It’s not pleasant. Pretty hard. Anyway, I got this flask. We were coming back actually by tradition nobody opened that flask until we were on the way back. I don’t know why. It was one of those things. Took this out, put the cup down like that, got the cork out, picked up the cup, went to pour it out. In that short time it had frozen solid in the flask.
DK: Oh.
JW: Hard to believe isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. That’s how cold it was.
JW: By the same token we were eventually issued with a new flying suit called a [pause] I forget what it was called. It was a Kapot lining and electric wiring all through it and it had a plug on the end. And you plugged it in to a socket in the turret so you’d got electric, heating. Luxury. Oh it was wonderful.
DK: I’ve heard different things about those. Sometimes they didn’t work and sometimes you got too hot.
JW: Ah, you’re right.
DK: Couldn’t get them just right.
JW: Well, course you put that on before you went out to the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now this would cover the whole of your body and at the bottom, on the heel, there were two press studs and you had a slipper that was also electrically heated and it plugged in. Ok. Just the heel there. Now, when you’re walking, you know, you move. You move your heel don’t you?
DK: Yeah.
JW: I found that out afterwards of course. What had happened was by walking with it, it had disturbed the wiring.
DK: Right.
JW: I don’t mean broke it. It shorted out anyway.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it started burning my heel. I mean, I couldn’t stand that so I had to switch it off. And when I switched it off I froze.
DK: Oh dear.
JW: It wasn’t a pleasant night [laughs]
DK: So at 97 then, can you remember how many operations you did from there?
JW: With 97?
DK: For example.
JW: Well, including the Woodhall Spa one.
DK: Although, oh have I jumped ahead. Hang on. Oh 61 sorry. How many operations did you do at 61? At Syerston.
JW: Oh about six.
DK: Six.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And you were going to mention about Gus and losing his arm.
JW: I did a few more at Woodhall Spa before I joined the crew.
DK: Right.
JW: I was in a crew room one day like you normally do. I hadn’t got a crew. I hadn’t got a job. I was just joined the mob there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And this flying officer walked up to me. I recognised his name because his name got around. He was on his second tour. He’d already done thirty and got the DFM.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember his name just for the —
JW: Yes. The name Fletcher.
DK: Fletcher.
JW: Bob Fletcher.
DK: Bob Fletcher.
JW: Robert Fletcher. Bob Fletcher.
DK: Right.
JW: He was a brilliant pilot. He really was. He was greatly underrated by the, by the authorities. He should have, he should have made quite advanced steps. He should have done. He was brilliant.
DK: So he, that was your first crew then was it?
JW: My first crew.
DK: You were no longer an extra bod.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JW: He came over to me and said, ‘I’m forming up a crew here. Would you like, would you like to join me?’ I said, ‘Oh yes, I would.’ With a reputation like he’s got. Dead cert. Ok. But it happens you see I was, once they had to do thirty and I was already one, one ahead of them by doing these other trips you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Not that that mattered at the time. And then one day the squadron commander came into the crew room and said, ‘You chaps are all volunteers for Pathfinders.’ Oh thank you. So off we went to Cambridge. There’s a story about that. But if you want that I’ll give it to you but it’s nothing to do with flying.
DK: Can I, can I just go back one bit.
JW: Yes.
DK: At, I don’t know, I made a note of this. Where were we? [pause] It was at 61. You were at Syerston weren’t you?
JW: Syerston.
DK: And you mentioned about Gus Walker. His accident.
JW: Yes.
DK: And you said you were actually there when he —
JW: Yeah.
DK: What can you just tell us about that?
JW: Oh yes. I was going to tell you about that wasn’t I? I was there at the time. That’s right. Actually I was on leave when it actually happened but I got the full story first hand.
DK: Right.
JW: What happened was — bombing up the aircraft there was a slight hitch. One of the bombs fell off on to the ground. It burst into flames because it was one of those. It was an incendiary. And the word was sent to the flying control tower saying that there were no, there are no explosives on the aircraft. They said, ‘Incendiary.’ So the fire brigade went out there and that sort of thing. And it happened that Gus Walker was up in the tower at the time. The news came through. Straight away he said, ‘They’ve made a mistake. There is explosives on the aircraft.’ He dived down and got in his staff car and tore down to the aircraft and pulling the chaps out, ‘Get out, get out, get out of the way,’ he said, ‘It’s going to go off.’ And it did go off. And that’s when he lost his arm. Now, he went to hospital of course. At Nottingham. And a number of the ground staff were also badly injured. Some were killed, some were injured. They went into another ward of course. Now, the officer’s mess got together and funded a huge basket of fruit and things like that and sent it to him. When he, when he got to the hospital he said, ‘No.’ he said, ‘Take that down to the ward to the airmen.’ He is an airman’s officer. He was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He was a great chap.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve, you’ve then gone to Woodhall Spa. After Syerston was it Woodhall Spa did you say?
JW: Yeah.
DK: And that’s where you met Bob Fletcher.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And so how many operations did you do with Bob and the crew there?
JW: I must check. I’ll look that up.
DK: Ok.
[pause]
JW: Won’t take a minute.
DK: No worries.
[recording paused]
JW: Let’s see. Where are we? 97 Squadron. Woodhall Spa.
DK: Ok.
JW: One, two, three, four, five, six. No, that wasn’t. No. Five.
DK: Five.
JW: That, that was at Bourn. The last trip I did at Woodhall Spa was to Spezia.
DK: Right.
JW: That was ten and a quarter hours.
DK: Oh. That’s a long time.
JW: Now, I’m going to tell you a story now. Are you ready for this one?
DK: Yeah. Go on then.
JW: Well, this was a long stretch to Spezia. It’s about half way down the west coast of Italy. It was an important submarine base at that time and we were tasked to go down there at the request of the Navy. Obviously, because of the submarine menace.
DK: Can I just close the window because there’s some sound coming?
JW: Of course.
DK: Through there. It might be affecting the, the old recording a bit.
[pause]
DK: Just that there’s some sound coming through. Sorry.
JW: That’s alright.
DK: You were on your way to Italy.
JW: Yes. We got half way across the alps. In fact I remember seeing Mont Blanc in the distance. Over there. It was still, we were above it so we were alright. And doing my usual searches like what my job was, it was a clear night and I saw this stream coming out of one of the engines there. What the hell is that? So I reported it. I said, ‘This is peculiar.’ There was a pregnant pause then and the engineer, the engineer Joe, he was brilliant too. We were all brilliant. Anyway, he came through to us, ‘I’m sorry lads. I’m sorry. I’ve made a mistake.’ He was then doing his usual converting the [pause] not converting [pause] moving fuel from the outer.
DK: Changing.
JW: To the empty inner.
DK: Right.
JW: Had been used up.
DK: Right.
JW: Unfortunately he picked the wrong one and the one he was putting it in was already full. So the petrol he was pumping in to it was just going straight out the overflow. And that’s what I could see. This stream. All this stream down there.
DK: So it was petrol.
JW: We lost about two hundred gallons of fuel.
DK: Oh no.
JW: Which we could ill afford to lose on a trip to Spezia.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So it was, there was a little bit of, up in the front in what we called the office while they were working out what they’re going to do. And Bob said, Bob made the decision of course, as he should do being the pilot. Carry on. We’ll take our chances. Now, the rest of us knew that we were going to come down in the drink somewhere. We hadn’t got enough to get back home. We came back over the Bay of Biscay actually. We did our job. We bombed the bloody place. Coming back, and old Joe as an engineer he was absolutely brilliant. He was. He was good. A lot older than the rest of us. He was like a grandfather to us. Joe. I can’t think of his other name. Oh wait a minute. I’ve got it here. [pause] He’s not on here. That’s funny. That’s very strange.
DK: There’s some names on the back there. He’s not, not there is he?
JW: Ah.
DK: As the —
[pause]
JW: No. This is a different crew.
DK: Oh.
JW: I was flying with a different crew there. No. No. I thought he was bound to be on there. No. I’m afraid I don’t remember his name now. I’ve got it somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But I can’t put my finger on it at the moment. No. Sorry, I can’t help with that.
DK: No. But he was a good flight engineer then was he?
JW: Flight engineer.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But he’d be dead by now. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
JW: I’m ninety four so, and I was only a kid to him. Time has taken its toll. That’s the original logbook.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Which is a disgrace so I copied it into another one.
DK: Ah.
JW: This is cleaned up, this is. I cleaned it up. Oh that’s old Bennett.
DK: Yes. So just going back to your trip to Italy. You’ve lost two hundred gallons.
JW: Yeah.
DK: You’ve obviously made it back to the UK.
JW: We did.
DK: You did. So —
JW: Without getting our feet wet.
DK: Yeah. So that was really down to the flight engineer then. Managing.
JW: Oh absolutely.
DK: Managing the petrol.
JW: He was brilliant.
DK: Down to the last.
JW: How the hell he managed to. He must have been, he must have been feeding petrol vapour into the engines.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I don’t know. He was very good. He saved us all. But that’s our crew you see. We were like that.
DK: So, from, so you’re with 97 Squadron at Woodhall Spa and then you said you’d then gone to the Pathfinders.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And you were basically told to go there. You were just ordered there. So no, no volunteering or anything.
JW: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And you’d gone to Bourn at that point.
JW: Well, yes. The mathematics is a bit hard to explain really but as we were getting towards the end of my time — oh yes. I forgot to mention this. One of the concessions we had in Pathfinder force was we were allowed to count each trip as two . So a full tour would be fifteen and not thirty.
DK: Right.
JW: That saved my life didn’t it? And that’s how I came to finish early.
DK: So you did forty five operations altogether.
JW: Forty five.
DK: Forty five. Yeah.
JW: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And were you with the same pilot? Fletcher. At Bourn.
JW: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Bob Fletcher. Yeah I picked him up. I’ve got it in here somewhere. I picked him up actually — let’s see now. A lot of rubbish in here. Flying officer. He was a flying officer at the time. Here we are. Oh yes. I had three trips with a crew but they had just about finished. They had, they had done twenty seven. They needed three more to do.
DK: Right.
JW: They did the three and they finished. So once again I was back in the pool.
DK: Right.
JW: Lennox was his name.
DK: And that was 97 again was it?
JW: Yeah. So I picked up Bob Fletcher. The first trip with him was St Nazaire. That was the target.
DK: Have you got a date for that?
JW: On the 2nd of April 1943.
DK: Right.
JW: Yeah. We dropped, we dropped eleven one thousand pound bombs. Eleven. Oh well, that’s what it says there. Who am I to argue? Yeah. And thereafter we were in, in the thick of it with all the others. Bob, quite rightly got promoted to flight lieutenant around about [ pause] let’s have a look. God, they took a long time promoting him didn’t they? He should have got it. Well I’m blowed. I never knew it took that long.
DK: That long. Longer than you thought.
JW: He’s still flying officer.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. He’s still flying officer. Well I’m blowed. Yeah. I don’t understand this.
DK: It’s a bit later on than you thought.
JW: Unless I missed it. Ah I’ve got it. The first time he flew as a flight lieutenant was the 27th of August ’43.
DK: Right.
JW: That’s right. And the target was Nuremberg. We dropped one four thousand pound bomb, three one thousand pound bombs and five target indicator marks. Markers. A little story about that really. PFF wasn’t the original title promoted. When [pause] who was promoting it? I think Sir Arthur Harris. That’s right. Or was it? No. it was Churchill I think. Churchill promoted the idea. Sir Arthur was against it because he didn’t want to have an elite corps. He said, ‘No. They’re all good. It’s not right.’ But he did give in and they formed the new group called 8 Group. And then the controversy got worse when Donald whats-his-name.
DK: Bennet.
JW: Yeah. He was a brilliant navigator. He had it in his fingertips there. And the Air Ministry promoted him above all the other air marshalls. Made him an air vice marshall in one leap like that and it upset the apple cart quite a bit you know. He wasn’t popular by any means. They all, they all admit he was brilliant. He was very clever. But they couldn’t get along with him at all.
DK: No. No.
JW: But that’s how the story goes. A bit beyond me of course.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah.
DK: As, in the Pathfinder force then what was the, just for this really, what was the sort of role of the Pathfinders as opposed to the main force? What did they —
JW: Ah yes. Yeah. Well the evolution of this was quite interesting. They, the original title was Target Finding Force. They didn’t like that. They said, ‘No. No. The others are just as good. So then they accepted they marked the route to get there.
DK: Right.
JW: Which was just as important as actually getting, I mean if you could find the place in the first place, you know. So it was named Pathfinder force. We were doing the course out. We dropped the markers along like.
DK: Right.
JW: And it was arranged by careful timing that the whole of the force doing target finding, there was our squadron and 35 squadron at Graveley and there was another squadron at Wyton who timed. Each aircraft had a specific time to be there.
DK: Right.
JW: So that he dropped his target and it burned for a few minutes but it’s going to go out. So the next one that comes along he tops it up.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So that. Very clever.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It worked.
DK: Did your aircraft then act as an initial marker? Or were you backing up or dropping the flares along the route?
JW: Well, we were all backers up really.
DK: Right.
JW: I suppose. But I mean it varied. It depended on the plans. The plans were all worked out at headquarters.
DK: Right.
JW: We were just given the orders you see.
DK: Right.
JW: We didn’t actually have to find the target. We didn’t need to look far. You could see the bloody thing there. I mean, the Mosquitoes in Pathfinder force, they were using a new secret arrangement called Oboe. Two transmitting stations sent out a beam like that. Right. Ok. And the aircraft followed it in. If they veered too much to one side they got a beep. And another one. They kept on track there. And then they gave a signal. This one here would be to keep them on track. This one here would tell him when to drop the bombs.
DK: Right.
JW: And it was extremely successful but of course they’re just flares went down. Parachute flares. Things like that. Then the rest would come along in an orderly way as far as we could make it. Just kept it going. In fact quite often when we, when we arrived there they’d been bombing for the last half hour. I mean it was well ablaze you know. There it is. But then of course the defences were alerted by that time. Oh dear it would get hot some times. Bloody Hell it did.
DK: So you never got attacked by a fighter then at any time.
JW: No.
DK: But was your aircraft hit by flak?
JW: I would have welcomed one because I was so bloody bored sitting there.
DK: Was your aircraft hit by flak at all on occasion?
JW: We got away with it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was bloody amazing how we got away with it but we did until that last trip when I wasn’t on it.
DK: And was that Fletcher’s crew that went?
JW: It’s, it’s an incredible story really when you think about it. When you leave here and you’re going home think about it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I mean, the chances of that happening were so remote. I shall never forget it of course. Where are we now?
DK: Where are we now? That’s straightforward. So —
JW: Do you want some amusing stories now do you?
DK: Just one other question before we move on.
JW: Yes. Go ahead.
DK: It’s as you’ve landed and you’ve come back and the operations finished. How did you feel as you landed on the way back?
JW: How did we feel? We were bloody pleased. I’ll tell you one thing to correct. There’s a very good film. Commercial film. What’s it called? “Night Bombers,” I think it’s called.
DK: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
JW: And at the end, at the tail end of that film the crew landed and they’re getting out of the aircraft and the voiceover said the first thing they do is to light up a cigarette.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Balls. The first thing you did was go down to the back end of the aircraft and pee up against the tail wheel. You’ve had nine hours without going to the [laughs] I don’t know if anybody’s ever told you this but there is a chemical toilet, elsan toilet.
DK: Elsan.
JW: In the aircraft.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. You never used that then?
JW: Of course not. It’s bloody silly. Can you imagine? There we are. Pitch dark. We had to have our oxygen mask on. Full clothing on.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Fumbling around trying to get — oh it’s ridiculous. They even had a separate can of fluid to top it up, there was.
DK: No.
JW: And after the war when they used the Lancasters to take the ground crew out to, on a sightseeing] to see what we’d done during the war.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Including taking the WAAFs as well. Because the WAAFs were there they put a screen around the [knocking on door] Come in. [pause] They put a screen around the toilet.
Other: Sorry to disturb you. Are you keeping an eye on the time?
DK: Oh. Alright we’ll come down. Ok.
Other: No problem. See you in a few minutes.
JW: I’ve told them to come. You’re having lunch.
DK: Yeah. Oh excellent. Oh great.
JW: I’ve forgotten what it is. Mine is pork bake. I don’t know what the bake is but I know what the pork is. I don’t know what the bake is though. And what’s the other one? I’ve taken the one anyway.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Shall, shall we pause there then?
[recording paused]
DK: I’ll tell you why. Because that was going to be my next, next question really was —
JW: Yes ok. You go ahead. Fire away.
DK: How you look back on that now and what do you miss about that period?
JW: Yeah. Well it’s, it’s very difficult to answer because it’s, there are so many aspects involved you see. I had two [pause] three, three separate careers really. First of all aircrew which was one life. Then when I finished, when they took me off aircrew I was on Training Command. That’s another life. And then eventually I was made redundant from supply because they were running down. And, being interviewed by a squadron leader I was, I don’t know if it’s got it on there but I was sent to an RAF station. We didn’t have any aircraft. What was the name? Somewhere in Leicestershire. Oh God what was the name of it?
DK: Bruntingthorpe.
JW: That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s where the jet engine was developed.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: That’s right. I was sent there as another holding unit and in the interview he said, ‘What skills have you got?’ I said, ‘Nothing really. I never got around to doing skills.’ So he said what is your hobbies and things?’ I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I’m very keen on, on the railway organisation.’ He said, ‘Are you?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I’ve got a copy of the Bradshaws timetable. The old original one.’ You know, a big one like this. The chaps knew I had this and if they had wanted to go somewhere they used to come to me and say, ‘Would you plot the route for me?’ And I used to go through it. It is a work of art going through that book. It was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And later LNER, LMS, Great Western.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That sort of thing, you know. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Well look, I’ll tell you what. I’m going down to London this weekend and I’ll pop into the Air Ministry and speak to the Movements chaps there and see if they can find you a slot.’ Now, I took that with a pinch of salt. I mean how am I going to? How shall I be that lucky? So, I said, ‘All right.’ And nothing happened for about a month and then I was called forward, out again. The chap said I’d got to report to the order room. I went, ‘Alright.’ And he said, ‘You’re posted to Euston Station.’ ‘To Euston?’ ‘Yeah.’ He gave me all the documents and off I went. Got to Euston station there and I asked to speak to the chap in charge. He didn’t know anything about this posting at all. He said, ‘I don’t know anything about it, at all. Maybe it’s our admin people over the road. I did. They didn’t know anything either so they rang up the movers in the Air Ministry. They said, ‘We’ve got this guy here,’ and I heard one side of the conversation. They must have said, ‘What’s he like?’ He said, ‘Oh, he looks alright.’ Oh thank you. They said, ‘Right, tell him, tell him to go to Victoria station. Report to flight lieutenant,’ what was his name, Orange. ‘Flight Lieutenant Orange.’ Ok. I went there and he was a nice chap. He was auxiliary.
DK: Right.
JW: Not in the full RAF.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And he had a lot of experience just lately of young officers, young aircrew officers no more use for them.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because they were running down and they went there and just sort of abused the situation. Did nothing, you know. Sort of went off and things like that. And he said and he was quite amazed when I asked him, ‘Can I do this?’ Can I do the other? I said, ‘I’d better go and see the station master, hadn’t I?’ He said, ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Well, it’s normal isn’t it?’ I was treating it as an RAF station. I went to see him. I wish I could remember his name. He was a typical, typical station manager. Pin striped trousers.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Bowler hat and [laughs] and we got on famously because we were chatting about things a bit, you know. At any rate a few days later I met him on the forecourt. I was wandering around. I did a lot of wandering around picking up information you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: He said, ‘I’m coming down. I’m going to see off the Golden Arrow,’ he said, as his job, a Prestige. Two. There were two Prestige trains in Victoria. One was the Golden Arrow. It went to Dover and then across to Paris. And the other one was the night sleeper. It went and left about 7 o’clock and the whole train was shipped across.
DK: Right.
JW: It was. So you, and it was all first class, Pullman and that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now both trains because they were Prestige trains he thought it was his business to go and see them off and he took me along with him. And I thought that was lovely. A very nice gesture. I enjoyed that. He said, ‘What are you doing here any rate at 7 o’clock in the evening?’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got nothing better to do.’ He said, ok. ‘Cause I, I was living with my family. My mother’s family.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At Enfield which is about twelve miles north of London. Yeah. There was nothing for me to do. So he said, ‘That’s great,’ and we got talking about things. One thing and another. We got along famously and then one day I do my usual walking over the concourse there and there was a hell of a bloody great queue to get tickets from the ticket office there and I spotted an RAF uniform in there. He had a collar on. A white collar on. I thought I’d better have a look at this. So I went across, and I said, ‘Excuse me sir.’ And I introduced myself. I had a red armband on you know. ‘Can I help you?’ He said, ‘Well I think you can,’ he said, ‘I’m the chaplain to the senior chaplain of the RAF and he’s going on a, he wants to go on a tour of Europe to visit all the RAF stations in the occupation zone.’ The occupation days that was you see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He said, I’ve got, I’ve, got to get, ‘I’ve got to get — he sent me to do all the bookings. Get all the tickets and that sort of thing,’ he said. I said, ‘Well you’re in the wrong bloody queue aren’t you at any rate? That’s for inland routes. Come with me.’ I took him around to the other station where the continental booking office was. I don’t know if you remember this in Victoria. They had two different booking offices.
DK: I do actually. Yes. Yes.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
JW: Well we were in the original one. Our office. RTO’s office. And they had been moved to the back of the refreshment bar there at the end of the concourse. And I took him around the back, knocked on the door and who should open the door but this ex-ATS girl who was on the staff with us there. And she got a job with the railway in the booking office. That was jolly nice. And we had a little chat and I said, ‘Look I’ve got a padre here who wants this, that and the other,’ I said, ‘Can I leave him with you?’ She said, ‘Oh leave him with me.’ So he left and I walked on. Some little while later. I think a month later or something, I think I had a call from this, his name was Dagger, Reverend Dagger.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And he said, he wanted to thank me very much. ‘You saved my bacon,’ or whatever he was saying. He said, ‘It all went swimmingly. That girl was wonderful. She knew her onions. She knew her railways anyway.’ She fixed him up with everything. The lot. He went off with a bundle and off he went. The chief had a lovely tour around there and that was that. That was fine. A good job. A good job I had done. It had its ramifications later on. I’d met my wife in the meantime in Jersey.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At the West Park Pavilion dance place there. It so happened by sheer coincidence she, my wife had previously been in hospital with some fever. What’s it called?
DK: Scarlet fever or, scarlet fever.
JW: You’re right. Scarlet fever. And she recovered now but her aunt lived in Jersey with her husband who was a Jersey man. And she invited her, my wife, to go over to stay with them a little while to recuperate.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So they set off. Her, her younger brother Derek who was a tall chap.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And her best girlfriend across the road. Audrey. The three of them. How the hell they managed to go through all the rigmarole of travel to get to Jersey but they did it. And any rate the first night I was there I’d been over, I went over previously in February just to have a look at the place. And I was very pleased with what I saw and I thought this is a place for a holiday. Soon as I got back I had a chat to my roommate there. He was an army officer. I said, ‘We ought to go and have a holiday there you know.’ He said, ‘Right.’ So we arranged to have our leave at the same time. I took him down to Paddington. There’s another route from Paddington to Weymouth.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We went that way.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Took him there. I said, ‘Do you know, I’m going to take you to the Palais,’ because servicemen always do that. The way you meet girls was at dances, you know. And I took him along there. When we got there it was, we were a bit early and the band was just coming on with their instruments and things and there was hardly anybody there. But I noticed at the far end, up that end there were three people sitting there. Two girls and a chap. I thought, as all servicemen do, look around for what they called an available bit, you know [laughs] And I thought she’s nice. I like that. So as soon as the band got themselves together and struck up for the first dance I walked across in uniform. The full, the full regalia. And I remember clearly for the first time in my life I was full of confidence. I don’t know how it happened. I felt, it was the uniform I think. I always felt good in uniform. I strode across with all the confidence in the world. ‘May I have this dance please.’ She said, ‘Oh yes.’ Got on the floor and she was light as anything. She was a beautiful dancer. I thought, you know, I can’t, I’ve got to say something. You’ve got to have a conversation haven’t you when you’re dancing?
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I said to her the usual thing, ‘Are you a local girl?’ ‘Oh No. No. No. I’m here on a holiday.’ ‘Oh, are you? Where are you from?’ She said, ‘Nottingham.’ ‘Oh, that’s my favourite city.’ And it was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I loved it. I was telling the truth, I loved it because I was at Syerston you remember. That was their watering hole.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Nottingham. And I said look I’ve got my mate down the bottom there and we’ve got a jug of claret cup which is what they do there. Instead of having drinks they give you a big glass jug and they mix it up. Half of it is claret and half is lemonade.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Top it up.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And they serve it up with glasses there and you just help yourself when you want it. Not a bad idea. I said, ‘We’ve got a claret cup already.’ I said, ‘Can I ask you who are those people? Who is that chap?’ ‘That’s my brother.’ Oh that was, I’ve heard that before. Anyway, I said, ‘Well come down and join us.’ She brought them down shared a nice little foursome there, you know. It was quite jolly. A nice evening. And we all disappeared and afterwards and I saw her home. St Aubin. She lived in St Aubin, that’s right. Up there. I made a date for the following day and she turned up at the weighbridge there and I didn’t, I hadn’t planned anything. It was unusual. I’m a great planner and I hadn’t. I don’t know why. Anyway I said, ‘Let’s get on a bus and have a ride,’ So we got on a bus, took her back to where she was at St Aubin. We got on another there took us down to a little bay which I’d discovered. There was a big bay called St Ouen’s. Huge thing. And the island’s prestige hotel called L’Horizon. The Horizon. L’Horizon it was called.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was a good five star hotel. Very good. Very top class you know. Now, as that bay goes around when it gets to this side here instead of going around there it ended in another little bay called Ouaisne. And we had a bus. Went from St Aubin to this place. We went down there and sat on the sand there. Had a little cuddle. Sat reading and things like that and on the point as this little bay went around the corner there was no beach but there was a whole pile of rocks been worn smooth by the water over the years. And I loved walking over them, climbing over them, you know. So I had a little walk around, came back and said, ‘Its nice around there you know. Do you want to have a look?’ And she’s a game girl. She always was. She came with me. We were climbing over these rocks. We found a little spot there. There was one big shiny smooth slab there slightly inclined. Well that’s just the job isn’t it? So we got on there and had a cuddle on there and spent the whole afternoon there. And I took her to the back as the tide was coming in. We just got around the corner before the tide cut us off actually and got on the bus back in. And I made a date for the next day. This went on for a fortnight.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Every afternoon bar one I took her out. We were getting thicker and thicker and thicker you know. She was lovely. And very, well the only way I can explain is it was compatible if you know what I mean.
DK: Yes.
JW: I felt at home and at ease.
DK: At ease. Yeah. That’s important though anyway.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Feeling at ease.
JW: Going back to the bus at weighbridge and she sat there and I sat here and I was getting very embarrassed because she kept looking around and gazing at me all the time. I’m not used to this. Then we got talking. I asked her how old she was. She said she was sixteen. Oh my God. I’m cradle snatching.
DK: So how old were you at the time then?
JW: I was twenty five at the time.
DK: Oh ok.
JW: A bit too old for a sixteen year old. And she was messing up. She was pulling my leg. She wasn’t. She was twenty actually.
DK: Oh that’s ok then.
JW: Yeah. But it made my heart sink you know. Particularly with this gazing at me all the time. I thought oh bloody hell. I’m not used to this. Anyway, we got around that alright. Then we got settled in very nicely. Now, when it came to the end of the holiday she had to go back because she was booked to go back on the boat on the, on the Saturday. Butch and I were going back on Sunday. The day after. So I had my last afternoon with her on the Friday before. Instead of catching the bus back I said, ‘Let’s walk around the point and have a look around there.’ We walked around the point. We found another little bay, a little bay there and there was a little island there all on its own with trees and everything on it. I said, ‘I’ve never seen anything like it. This is lovely.’ I said, ‘I’ve got the urge to swim in the skinny.’ So I took my things off. I said, ‘Are you coming?’ She said, ‘No. No. I’ll stay here and read.’ I said, ‘Ok.’ So I went in and I was swimming around. Lovely. And I came out. The sun was shining and I was warming up. She was laying there and I laid down beside her. Now the rest of it is a bit personal.
DK: Say no more.
JW: Except to say that we only cuddled. Nothing else.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I don’t know what got over me that times.
[recording paused]
DK: So its back on again. It’s been off. Don’t worry.
JW: Well, he successfully baled out.
DK: So if I could just recap there. So Wally Layne was the wireless operator.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And —
JW: He was a warrant officer at the time.
DK: He was a warrant officer.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And he baled out.
JW: Right. Well he survived the parachute jump alright and he started what they call evading. It was our duty to evade if you could and he spent a week. All he had was the escape kit that we were all issued with.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It had things like a tube of condensed milk, some chewing gum. Bits. And vitamin tablets. Things like that to help us. And what he could pick up on the way wasn’t very much. I think he said turnips he managed to get hold of. Anyway, after a week he was so weakened by this that he decided he’d had enough. He was a prisoner of war. He staggered out in to the street and fell in to the arms of the first person he could find who happened to be a policeman. The policeman invited him to the hospitality of a prisoner of war camp. And when he got to the prisoner of war camp he got to the gate going in, from what he was telling me, he got to the camp and the first person he saw there was our previous navigator who’d been shot down in another plane. They laughed their bloody heads off [laughs]
DK: So can I ask who survived the shooting down then? The wireless operator, Wally and the pilot?
JW: Yeah.
DK: Fletcher. And there was two others who survived the —
JW: The bomb aimer.
DK: The bomb aimer.
JW: That’s that chap.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember his name?
JW: Jack [pause] bloody hell.
DK: I think we’ve got it.
JW: I think it’s somewhere on there.
DK: I think we’ve got it on there. The bomb aimer. Because he’s the one on the photo.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And who else survived?
JW: Yeah. I can’t think.
DK: So the wireless operator, pilot.
JW: And the engineer.
DK: And the flight engineer.
JW: That was Joe. And I can’t think of his surname.
DK: Joe. Right.
JW: Joe. The older chap. He was like the father to us. We were all a lot younger than him.
DK: So the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner.
JW: The rear gunner was killed instantly. The mid-upper gunner who was the chap who took my place, he was killed instantly.
DK: Can you remember the name of the rear gunner?
JW: And our replacement navigator. He was killed also. That just left the four of them.
DK: Right. So the rear gunner, mid upper gunner and the navigator were killed.
JW: And the navigator.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember the name of the rear gunner?
JW: Yeah. Harry Page.
DK: Harry Page. And the navigator. What’s his name? It doesn’t matter.
JW: He wasn’t with us. He wasn’t one of the original crew. He was a replacement.
DK: Right.
JW: Our proper navigator had been taken away from us and put into another crew. Took one particular operation and was shot down. So we lost him.
DK: Right.
JW: So they gave us a new navigator. I should know that name. I’ve got it somewhere.
DK: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. And I notice you were at Kinloss in October, November ’43. Is that when the plane crashed with the cadets on board?
JW: Yeah.
DK: So, we didn’t actually record that unfortunately. You couldn’t tell the story again could you? So you’re on a Armstrong, was it a Whitley?
JW: Yeah.
DK: A Whitley.
JW: Armstrong Whitley. That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Terrible plane. Oh terrible. Used to fly like that [laughs] In point of fact it was so bloody slow and underpowered.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That as I said that runway went out to sea. If we’d got an inshore wind like this the chap up here would do this for a lark, he’d put the throttle right back. Almost stall. And he would hover like that. The wind [laughs] Oh no.
DK: So how many, how many air cadets were on board? How many air cadets were on board at the time?
JW: Oh I don’t know. It was all shrouded in memory. I can’t remember. I’m guessing. I think there was some female cadets. Did they have female cadets?
DK: Probably didn’t.
JW: There must have been. But I don’t remember. I should say about four. Four or five.
DK: And you came down in the sea there.
JW: In the sea.
DK: Yeah
JW: Yeah. Landed in the sea. Wheels up. As I say the water was only four feet deep.
DK: So the dinghy came out by itself then.
JW: The dinghy came out on its own. We grabbed the dinghy, put all the kids in and pushed it ashore [laughs] When I think about it was bloody funny you know. It wasn’t very funny at the time but there we are. Oh dear me. It’s a story that nobody believes of course. Oh dear. Although, It’s funny enough though a few years back I took my son up to Scotland as I told you. And one of the, one of the reasons was that I’d made arrangements to take him to Kinloss to see the airfield here I flew from.
DK: Right.
JW: And we got off the train at Forres . The station at Kinloss had been closed. RAF Kinloss had its own railway station on this line. This was the main line from Inverness to Aberdeen.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We used to have a little station there called Kinloss and there was a footpath we used to walk across, over the fence and we were in the airfield. It was very handy. Getting back late, you know [laughs] At any rate where was I? Oh yeah. Kinloss. I forget. I’ve lost my trend. Jack Beesley, that was the chap’s name. Beesley. Jack Beesley.
DK: And he was the —
JW: Got it?
DK: He was the —
JW: He was the bomb aimer.
DK: He was the bomb aimer and he survived.
JW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. He did.
DK: So, after the war then, did you stay in touch with any of the four surviving crew at all?
JW: Sorry?
DK: Did you, did you stay in touch with the, with your crew after the war?
JW: No.
DK: No.
JW: Because we went our ways. We were all over the place. Joe came somewhere up near Bolton. Somewhere like that. And another one came from Birmingham. Who was that? [pause] Harry Page came from Bristol.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Wally Layne, Grantham. Bob Fletcher, he was at Burton on Trent. He was at Burton on Trent. Who have I missed?
DK: Wally, Bob.
JW: I came, I came from Enfield, Middlesex. That’s a touch, I’ve got a touch of Cockney in me you know [laughs] I spent most, a lot of my pre, nearly all my pre-RAF days working in London. At the headquarters there of the Co-op.
DK: Right.
JW: The London Headquarters.
DK: Yeah.
JW: In Leman Street.
DK: Yeah.
JW: East 1.
DK: Just, just looking at your operations here I notice you’ve got “Target award.” Is that because you were the most on target or — ?
JW: Recall is it?
DK: Target award.
JW: Oh target award. Oh yes. I’ll show you that.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: Are they in this? Are they in this book or are they in that book?
DK: So you got one of those for Milan, Nuremberg.
JW: That’s quite true. Yeah.
DK: Spezia, Italy.
JW: But not with Bob Fletcher. It was other crews.
DK: Right. Because that was, they were with 97 Squadron.
JW: Yeah. Let’s see what I’ve got here. I’ve got all rubbish here, haven’t I?
DK: Oh that’s a Nuremberg one.
JW: There’s another one.
DK: Right. So —
JW: Do you want another one?
DK: So that’s the target award for Spezia on the 13th and 14th of April 1943.
JW: Yeah. Some things are repeated, of course. I don’t know. Some —
DK: This one then. That’s Fletcher. That’s with the Fletcher crew.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So then Milan 14th to 15th of Feb 1943 — target award. And Nuremberg 25th of the 2nd 1943. So the pilot then was Lennox.
JW: Lennox, that’s it. I flew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: The three trips I did with him. His last three before he finished his thirty ops.
DK: So these target awards then were, were they they based on how close you got to the target?
JW: Photographs.
DK: Photographs.
JW: When you dropped your bombs, when they dropped the bombs though they also dropped a flare chute.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not a chute, a flare thing, you know which is due, which is timed to detonate at a certain level. And as it detonated it lit up the target and it showed where you drop the bomb.
DK: Right.
JW: But it’s a bit hard to get that really because you’d got cloud to think of and all sorts of things to think about. So, it wasn’t, it wasn’t all that easy. We weren’t, we weren’t conscious of it of course at the time.
DK: So just for the recording here the Spezia one on the 13th and 14th of April.
JW: Yeah.
DK: The pilot’s Fletcher and you get Sergeant Mason, Flight Sergeant Robertson, Flight Sergeant that would be Wally Layne. Sergeant White, yourself. Pilot officer Bale and the Sub Lieutenant Lett. Was he Royal Navy then?
JW: [pause] Yeah. [pause] Ok. Shall I put them back in the —
DK: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
JW: This you might be interested in. Look at it that way.
DK: There you go.
JW: That’s a bomb. Oh you’ve twisted it around.
DK: A bomb bay.
JW: No re-gain.
DK: That way.
JW: That way. That’s it. That’s the four thousand pound bomb.
DK: Bomb.
JW: That’s right.
JW: And those are incendiaries.
JW: That’s right. A hell of a load isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: That aircraft, the Lancaster was really, really a winner you know. It was, it was a great boost for AV Roe.
DK: That was going to be my next question actually.
JW: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of the Lancaster then?
JW: Marvellous. Yes. She was a, she was, it was quite a comfortable aircraft really. Flying this is. Mind you, where we were, the rear turret was a bugger and I steered clear of that. Some bright bloody bugger up at headquarters got the idea that if you remove the Perspex in front they can see better. He has to put goggles on to make up for it so where’s the saving? All you got was cold. As you know when you push something through the air you get a backdraft.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You get it in a car isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Well you’ve got a gale blowing in there and it’s bitter cold. It really is bitter. Your saliva which drips down from your mask, that freezes and it can block the tube.
DK: So how many times did you fly in the rear turret then?
JW: I can have a look.
DK: Yeah. Ok. But you were mostly —
JW: As little as possible I can tell you.
DK: As little as possible. So it was mostly the mid-upper turret.
JW: Well, you see, in the early days I didn’t have much clout as the saying goes. But as I got more and more experienced in things and surviving, our crew had got a reputation on the squadron of being the lucky people. We were lucky. No doubt about that. They couldn’t understand how we escaped so much. We did. And I’ll tell you Bob, he didn’t cut corners. I’ll swear to any bible you like we went to the target and he went to the bloody target and he dropped his bombs on the target. That’s how we got the target awards. And he came back. Now, he was a good chap. Now, you want to know, what am I looking at?
DK: How many times you flew in the rear turret.
JW: Oh yeah [pause, pages turning] It’s here somewhere. Ah yes. There’s [pause] well that was a training flight. 8th of October of ’42. Now then. Mid-upper. Mid-upper. Mid-upper. Here we are. Conversion course at somewhere or other. I was rear gunner all of those. That’s right. We didn’t have a mid-upper there. That was, we were doing a conversion. The stupidity, the apparent stupidity, let’s put it that way, of what goes on in wartime among the passing things down. You know. Well, there we were at Syerston flying with a crew and suddenly we were sent to Swinderby, just up the road for a conversion course to four engine, four engine aircraft. What the hell did they think we were flying in any case? I mean it’s so ruddy stupid it’s hard to believe. There we are. I’ve got it here.
DK: So at the OTU and Heavy Conversion Unit was that all Lancasters?
JW: Yeah. Somebody had got their wires crossed I expect.
DK: Yeah. Was it? Was it Lancasters at the OTU and the Heavy Conversion Unit?
JW: Yeah. Here we are. I did some. Sergeant Goodwin, as a rear gunner and also, that’s right — one, two I did a lot of training flights. Only one operation.
DK: Oh right. So only one operation in the rear turret.
JW: There’s some more there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Another one there. Mine laying. A lot, a lot of exercises went on. Kept us busy didn’t it? Rear gunner. All these are rear gunner. Oh yes. Here we are. Gardening. They called it gardening. Sowing the mines, you know.
DK: The mines.
JW: Essen. Berlin. Dusseldorf. Two at Dusseldorf.
DK: And that was in the rear turret.
JW: Yeah. These are all rear gunner. I did more than I thought.
DK: Ah.
JW: Hamburg.
DK: For the recording that’s, you were at the Baltic mining on the 14th of December ’42 and the 9th of January ’43. And then Essen the 11th of January ’43.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Berlin 16th of January. Dusseldorf 23rd of January.
JW: The 14th of, the 14th of February.
DK: Yeah.
JW: ’43. I joined 97 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So Dusseldorf again 27th of January.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And Hamburg 30th of January.
JW: That’s right.
DK: 1943. And —
JW: They were all rear gunners they were.
DK: They were all rear gunner. Right.
JW: I didn’t know, I didn’t know I managed all that. Good gracious.
DK: So that’s at least one, two, three, four, five, six times. You were rear gunner more often than you thought.
JW: There’s still some rear gunners here. Lennox. It’s got to come to an end soon. Ah [pause] ah my first flight with Bob Fletcher. I even put his decoration in. DFM.
DK: And what date was that?
JW: That was the 30th of March ‘43
DK: Right. So that was a training flight was it?
JW: That’s my, that’s my first flight with him. That was the mid-upper gun. I exercised my seniority. I’m going in the top turret thank you. And old Harry Page was stuck with the other one. He didn’t mind. He’s a tough old bird he was old. Old Harry was. No. That’s all, that’s all it was. No more.
DK: So all your operations then up to the 30th of March were in the rear turret.
JW: I didn’t like it one little bit.
DK: And just here 24th of July 1943 was Hamburg and the first use of Window. Was that the dropping out of the, the reflective flares? The reflective paper then? Window.
[pause]
JW: Window. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s the strips of metal.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But that, right I’ll tell you now a little story. Not a story but the fact. There was one anti-fighter device which didn’t get its proper recognition. It was a thing called Tinsel. All this was, it was a, it was the cheapest piece of equipment you could ever bother to think and it was the most effective. And it was ignored. That’s higher up. All this was was a microphone that was attached to one of the inner engines and the wire, and the cable went through the wing into the cockpit and down to the wireless operator’s position. And it coupled to his Morse code.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now, on briefing all the wireless operators were given a wave band to listen out on. Right. And that’s all the squadrons all doing it. And what you had to do, what they had to do was to listen out, when they weren’t doing something else, listen out. As soon as they heard a German voice — on the key.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It transmitted this awful noise from the engine. There were a few sore ears down there I wonder. But it never got recognised as an effective. It probably sounded a bit too simple probably. All it was was a microphone, a bit of adhesive tape and wire.
DK: And wire. Yeah.
JW: A shame you know because, because the wireless operators got used to it and they started using it for their own purposes and they would tap messages to each other because you can’t broadcast when you’re flying.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because they can pick you up. But if you’re transmitting this bloody noise the people, they can’t hear you, you see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And come in, ‘I’ve heard from Joe and,’ so and so and so. ‘Oh really.’ [laughs] [pause] We saw Nettleton go down.
DK: Really.
JW: We didn’t know at the time it was him. We were coming back from one of the Italian jobs. Milan or Turin and he came back over the Bay of Biscay. That way to avoid coming over France. Daylight by now because it’s a long trip. Broad daylight and I was flying there and occasionally, it was very interesting flying along on your own. You think, on your own. And suddenly another one there, another one there, another one there they were popping up and people in the same stream going down. You know. Very interesting. And I was looking down there and I saw this one down a bit low there and flying like that and suddenly his nose dipped down like that. He went straight in the water. I noted the time. And when I reported this back at interrogation afterwards I found out it was Nettleton. So nobody knows why he went down.
DK: Yeah. Is it, is it possible to check your logbooks? I just —
JW: Sorry?
DK: The aircraft P Peter. Does it have the serial number in your logbook by any chance?
[pause]
DK: 1943.
[pause]
JW: I’ve got a lot of rubbish in here.
DK: Did you, did you make a note of the serial numbers?
JW: Yes.
DK: I’m just. P Peter.
JW: Here we are. JA 708.
DK: Ok. And that was operation to Hanover on the —
JW: Hanover. Yeah.
DK: 22nd of September.
JW: That’s right.
DK: 1943.
JW: Yeah. My last trip that was.
DK: And then the following night. Hanover again when the aircraft was lost.
JW: The following. Ah. Now then, another little story coming up. Now here we go. They flew off without me. A bloke in my place. And the target was Mannheim.
DK: Oh Mannheim. Ok.
JW: It was. But they never found it. They never hit it. Now I had a letter many many years later from the editor of the local newspaper of a small town which lies in between Mannheim and Ludwigshafen.
DK: Right.
JW: They’re both inland ports.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: About in the middle. And I can’t remember the name of it. He wrote to me. He said he’d heard of my survival and he’d like a little more information because he said for the anniversary of that particular night they were going to put some show on or something.
DK: Ok.
JW: And he wanted to get all the information I think he could out of it. There wasn’t much I could tell him because I wasn’t there. He appreciated that. But he did send me a diagram of the town centre which was completely obliterated. They got the lot down there. It was the wrong target. Great shame wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: These things happen don’t they, in wartime doesn’t it?
DK: So which town was this then that —
JW: Well I don’t know. I can’t remember the name of it.
DK: Right. Ok.
JW: It begins with the letter K I remember.
DK: So the target was Mannheim but they —
JW: They should have bombed Mannheim but the Pathfinders had made a mistake. They targeted this little town instead.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And this little town got the lot. Seven hundred Lancasters dropping bombs on them.
DK: And that was the 23rd of September 1943.
JW: Completely obliterated the whole town centre he tells me.
DK: And that was, just for the recording here the 23rd of September 1943. Yeah.
JW: Is it, he had a title. He was a professor of something or other.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Editor of the local newspaper.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Ok well let’s stop the recording there. I’m sure you are.
[recording paused]
DK: So it’s recording now so —
JW: Ok.
DK: Consider what you’re saying. So 97 Squadron then. What do you —
JW: Right. Woodhall Spa.
DK: Yeah. Ok.
JW: Right. Well it so happens that our parent station was Coningsby. [But you didn’t really notice that?] And they were so close that the drem circuit, which is a ring of lights around the airfield.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And they crossed there. Think of this. They’re going that way around like that and down like that. This one’s going the same way like that. But when they get there they’re in opposite directions. We thought that’s a bit hairy. Fortunately there was no flying at Coningsby. They were busy putting a hard —
DK: Runway.
JW: Runways down. Putting hard runways down. But we were so close to Coningsby really. All our, all our admin work was done at Coningsby. Now, I went back to Coningsby twice. The first time was we’d all subscribed. In the Association not the Squadron Association, we subscribed to a stained glass window to commemorate the squadron. And that was being placed in the chapel on the station. The RAF station there. A proper do on a Sunday morning there. Even got one bloke there playing the bugle. He couldn’t play it to save his soul [laughs] but never mind. It was a gesture. We got that done. I guess, I got another, another instance where I broke my thoughts about the future. A lot of the chaps there with me were wearing the DFM. Which means they were airmen. Not officers. That’s just, just a little aside. At the general meetings each year the first time I went I shared a table with a couple there. Two couples in fact. A big table. Yeah. They were original people from the squadron in wartime days and come to think of it they weren’t particularly happy about being there. They thought, I got the impression they thought it was a waste of time but I didn’t say anything at the time naturally. But it added to my thoughts about the whole thing you know. And when I was first approached by Ann Savage who was this WAAF, ex-WAAF who was acting as secretary she, I don’t know how she found me but she got me and talked me into joining. Before joining I rang my pilot Bob Fletcher at home and I asked him for his, his opinion. He said, ‘Don’t touch them with a barge pole.’ He wouldn’t have it. No. Out. Oh dear. But pressure was put on me to join and I thought well I do owe something. I mean you must know by now how lucky I’ve been. I do know something. So I, I gave in and I went along to that. The next AGM and reunion. The other reunion there’s a misname. It wasn’t a reunion at all. It was an AGM really. There was so few people there who were actually on the squadron during the wartime days. Now, that’s what I call a reunion. Me meeting old friends there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I knew nobody. And nobody knew me. These two couples at the table there they weren’t particularly happy about it all. The next year I went again. I didn’t see them again. They never turned up again. I noticed a few others that I remembered were there. They didn’t come again. The third time I went nobody came there who was on the squadron during the wartime days. Completely out. And going back to that business I said about, about the youngsters there this particular organisation now is devolved into just a club for the young people. And I try to influence them a bit. The chairman was a retired wing commander. Bomb aimer. Ken Cook. And he and the secretary were together like that and they had some sort of interest in the hotel. The Admiral Rodney. Admiral Rodney in the middle of Lincoln? Oh well [laughs] And Hornchurch is, it’s a sink town. It’s dreadful. They’ve got a little stream that runs through the town there. It’s only a little stream but you get all the rubbish in there. Bedsteads and trollies and all sorts of things. It’s a dreadful place. It had a Woolworth’s there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it hadn’t been changed since the wartime days. It had ordinary floorboards. No lino or carpet. Oh God. Oh no. No. I said, I thought came into my mind this is not going to attract anybody.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You’d have one say never again and I tried to steer them away. I thought Lincoln would be the ideal place.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Lincoln was the centre of Lancaster country you know. We all know that. Everybody. It’s always written up on it and they wouldn’t listen because this hotel. They got hat and glove with the proprietor of the hotel I think. They took over the hotel and allocated the bedrooms and things like that. No. That’s not the future at all. Any rate, the wing commander, he wrote to the other members of the committee misinterpreting exactly, misinterpreting entirely what I had wrote to him. He said I was trying to tell them to buy a sack of Kevin’s books and dish them out as rewards or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not at all. That wasn’t it at all. I was talking about the location of the place. So I bowed out. I said it’s not worth it. It’s not worth worrying about. Except for Kevin. He stayed on. He became the secretary. Acting secretary shall I say. I don’t get much from him these days. He’s very busy. Like all of us when you retire you start getting busy.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But there you are he keeps on saying I’ll come and see but it’s a long way to come from Peterborough just to take you out to lunch isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And I haven’t got a house now to offer hospitality. He stayed with us before when I had a house at East [unclear] but that’s gone now.
DK: When you were based at Woodhall Spa did you use the Petwood Hotel?
JW: Yeah.
DK: At all. Was that, was that somewhere you used to go to then as the mess?
JW: Well the last time we went I took my wife with me. A bit of luck once again. Just my lucky streak. And somebody from the hotel staff, somebody in authority, they said, ‘Oh we’ll change your room for you.’ We had some sort of little room. They gave us a lovely room. Private bathroom. The lot. It was well done you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it so happened that after the meeting and all the fun and games and things like that, people drifting away that more or less left Kevin and his lady and me and my wife and one or two others there drifting away. And we were taken, my wife and I were taken with Kevin up to this room and people were going back to their room, passing. Raising an eyebrow. They knew this was a good room. We got the plum. So that’s it. That’s it. Time to quit. Any rate I wished them the best but when you come to think of it though when they first asked me to join that’s over twenty years after the war. It’s a bit late to start a reunion isn’t it? Twenty years after the event isn’t it?
JW: It is. It is a little bit.
And then Bob saying don’t touch them with a bargepole. I don’t know why. I don’t know what his objection was but he wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Yeah. It was a bit downmarket I must admit.
What? The Petwood?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ernest James White
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWhiteEJ161027
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:42:38 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James White worked as a wages clerk for the Co-op before volunteering for the Air Force. He had intended to join the navy but he saw some recruits being shouted at so he turned around and crossed the corridor to join the RAF. He had always had an interesting in flying because his uncle lived near Hendon Airfield and he had enjoyed watching the aircraft as well as making models. When he had completed his final operation as a gunner with 97 Squadron his crew still had one to do and so he volunteered to join them. The gunnery leader refused his offer and he went on the operation himself. The crew failed to return from that operation and the surviving members became prisoners of war.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nuremberg
Italy--La Spezia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
44 Squadron
61 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Botha
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
Lysander
memorial
military service conditions
Oboe
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Graveley
RAF Morpeth
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
searchlight
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2257/40604/PEdwardsF2-2201.1.jpg
725fb23cfcf3869419f2d279f4c4d56c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2257/40604/AEdwardsF2-220811.1.mp3
dc20b7b226f6d219e3f962d3c59d659c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edwards, Frank
F Edwards
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Edwards (b. 1937). Originally from London, he was evacuated to the Lincolnshire/Leicestershire border. Has written a book about his experience.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-11
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Edwards, F-2
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just introduce you. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Frank Edwards at his home on the, what’s the date today [laughs] hang on. The 11th of August 2022. So if I just put that down there.
FE: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking at it I’m just making sure it’s still working okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So put that there. So if you just talk naturally.
FE: Yes. Talk naturally to you. That’s alright.
DK: If I ask you first of all. Whereabouts were you born?
FE: I was born in London on the 28th of the 10th ’37. I was born at St, not Stephen. Wait a minute. I’ve put it down. I never can[pause] St Leonards Hospital, Shoreditch.
DK: So it’s Shoreditch. So you’re a Shoreditch man then.
FE: A Shoreditch man. I was born within the sound of Bow Bells so they call me a proper Cockney.
DK: A proper. A proper Cockney. A proper Cockney. Well, I’m originally from West London so —
FE: Oh, was you?
DK: So people refer to me as being a Cockney but I can’t claim that.
FE: No. No. No.
DK: Originally from Hounslow.
FE: Oh yes. Hounslow.
DK: That area.
FE: That’s more on the outside.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all West London and near to Heathrow Airport.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So what was, what was it like then? Shoreditch in those days.
FE: Well, I was only four years old so I can’t remember a lot but what I can remember is the Doodlebugs coming over and the sound and the silence and then the explosion and my mother used to grab all of us boys because there were four of us and a sister and used to run us down to the Underground.
DK: The London Underground.
FE: The London Underground.
DK: The London Underground. Yeah.
FE: And we used to stop in there overnight if the raids were still going on.
DK: Can you remember which Underground station you went to?
FE: No. No. I can’t.
DK: So you stayed on the platform there.
FE: No, we went to the Underground.
DK: Oh.
FE: And laid all on the platform. There were all the sheets and blankets and everything there. Us boys thought it was good fun because we was running up and down.
DK: Yeah.
FE: With all the other children. Thought it was good fun and, yeah —
DK: So that would have been 1944 then.
FE: That would have been. Yeah. It would.
DK: So you would have been, well seven at the time.
FE: Wait a minute. ’37. No, I was just over four year old.
DK: Oh, right. Okay. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Just over four. And one time we heard the Doodlebugs coming and my mother grabbed us and we was running down to the Underground and there was the explosion and we sort of turned around and we could see the end of our house caving in. So it didn’t actually hit it. But it was —
DK: Yeah. From the blast.
FE: Very very close and —
DK: Do you actually remember seeing the Doodlebugs in the sky?
FE: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
FE: No. I can’t remember seeing them. We used to hear the noise of them coming and then there was a big silence before the actual explosion.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. As they dropped.
FE: As they dropped. And —
DK: So, what, was there much damage to your house then?
FE: Well, not a lot. No. It was just more or less one end of the sitting room had gone out.
DK: So —
FE: And we carried on living in it because I can remember the boards.
DK: Right. I was just going to have a look. Yeah.
FE: That they had put these boards up at the end.
DK: Can you remember what sort of house it was? Was it a terraced house or a semi? Or detached?
FE: I think it was a terraced house.
DK: A terraced house. Right.
FE: Yeah. And my youngest brother he was born under the kitchen table in an air raid.
DK: Wow.
FE: And how I know that because my mother told me that that’s where he was born.
DK: Can you remember what year that would have been he was, he was born?
FE: He’s two years younger than me. Yeah. Yeah. Two years younger. That’s right. So that would have been what ’34, ’37. That would have been ’40. wouldn’t it?
DK: 1940.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So that would have been during the Battle of Britain as it were and the Blitz.
FE: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: The Blitz. Yeah.
FE: She was, he was born under the kitchen table and a neighbour came and grabbed all of us because there was an air raid going on and she took us down to the shelter and somebody came around to look after mother while she was giving birth.
DK: Wow. So I don’t suppose you really remember the start of the war then. You just really remember towards the end.
FE: That’s right.
DK: The second part. So were you actually evacuated at one point?
FE: Yes. When I was practically five all I knew was we were suddenly going somewhere with my mother. I didn’t know where it was or anything about it. But anyway, we all got loaded up on the train at Kings Cross and big excitement I suppose for us boys.
DK: So, so —
FE: We’d never been out of London.
DK: Yeah. No.
FE: In our lives. In fact, we’d never been out of the street I don’t think and as I say we got loaded up on the train and my mother came with us.
DK: So was your, your brother as well was he?
FE: Yeah.
DK: So it was just you and your brother and your mother.
FE: Two. Two brothers.
DK: Two brothers.
FE: Yeah. Two brothers and —
DK: So altogether three.
FE: Yeah. Three.
DK: You and two brothers plus your mother.
FE: And my sister.
DK: Oh, and a sister.
FE: Yeah. No. My sister went to Somerset.
DK: Oh okay, okay.
FE: Yeah. Now why she went to Somerset I never found out.
DK: No. So where did your mother and the sons go to then?
FE: We all came down here to Grantham Station.
DK: Oh. Right.
FE: We got off at Grantham Station. There was a coach waiting for us. Brought us all down to Croxton Kerrial where the water spout is.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: On this side of the road and anyway we had to line up outside the vicarage. All in a line. I’d got a label as everybody else with your name on it and I had a little suitcase with a gas mask.
DK: Yeah.
FE: I had a gas mask.
DK: That was a child’s gas mask was it?
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And anyway, we all stood outside the vicarage and people from neighbouring villages came and said, ‘I can take one.’ ‘I can take two.’ And anyway, with us three boys and my mother we was the last ones —
DK: Yeah.
FE: To get picked. And there was a kind lady, Mrs Shipman, she said, ‘Well, I’ll take the three boys until we can find somewhere else for one or two of them.’ And so my mother came with us to get us settled in but after a couple of months probably she got so she wanted to get back to London. She was a proper Londoner.
DK: Yeah.
FE: She didn’t like it in the countryside.
DK: No. No.
FE: Couldn’t settle.
DK: Do you know, can you recall what your mother was employed doing? Was she, did she have a job at the time?
FE: No.
DK: Right.
FE: No.
DK: So she was just a housewife.
FE: She’d got four children so, so —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: I presume she never —
DK: And can you recall what your father would have been doing?
FE: He was a firewatcher.
DK: Okay. So he remained in London.
FE: He remained in London.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And my mother said that she wanted to get back to him you know. His eyes wasn’t very good so that was the job he was doing. Fire.
DK: Right.
FE: Fire watching. And anyway, we went to this very kind lady. She was a farmer’s wife but her husband had died and we really settled in well except my mother as I say.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Which she went back to London.
DK: Can you recall the lady’s name that you stayed with?
FE: Mrs Shipman.
DK: Mrs Shipman. Sorry.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So was she living on a farm or —
FE: She was on the farm.
DK: Right.
FE: A lovely farmhouse.
DK: Can you remember whereabout the farmhouse was?
FE: It was in between Branston and Knipton.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think one of the boys Shipman still lives in the farmhouse.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: And we settled in quite well us boys. We thought it was great running all around.
DK: Looking back it must have been a bit of a cultural shock coming from London.
FE: Going to —
DK: And a terraced house to all this open countryside.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Does that really stand in your mind then?
FE: It does.
DK: Open and —
FE: I can remember when the door was open because of course we wasn’t very old. We used to run. Run out and go all around the stackyard and everywhere and they used to come looking for us to get us back into the house and yeah it was great. Really really enjoyed it and anyway after a time Mrs Shipman found that she couldn’t deal with three. Three of us.
DK: Would you know how old she would have been roughly?
FE: She was getting on. Wait a minute. Let me think.
DK: In her fifties or sixties or perhaps a little bit older.
FE: I should say she was.
DK: I know it’s difficult looking back.
FE: Probably sixty.
DK: Sixty. Yeah.
FE: She seemed very old.
DK: I was just going to say.
FE: Yeah. But they would do to boys.
DK: Must have seemed ancient to you.
FE: That’s right.
DK: At the time.
FE: Yeah. But she was definitely getting on a bit.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And what stands out in my mind really was the lovely meals that she cooked and she used to lay the table with all the silver and all the rest of it because they were a little bit on the posh side. And yeah that sort of stands out in my mind when the table, called us in for dinner or whatever and seeing the table all laid out which at home I suppose we just sat around an old table.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And that was it.
DK: So how long were you evacuated for? How long did you spend at the farm?
FE: Well, she found she couldn’t deal with the three boys so at the end of the lane from the farmhouse was the farm worker’s cottages. There was two. And one of the farmworker‘s wives said she’d take one.
DK: Right.
FE: The cleaning lady from Croxton Kerrial she said she’d take me.
DK: Right.
FE: So we were split up.
DK: Split up. Yeah.
FE: My younger brother he stopped with Mrs Shipman.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. That was the one that was born under the table.
DK: Right.
FE: And —
DK: Just for the record recall your brother’s names? Your younger brother was —
FE: My younger brother was John.
DK: John. Yeah.
FE: My eldest brother was Terry.
DK: Terry. And your sister who’s gone to Somerset.
FE: Lily.
DK: Lily. And your parent’s names?
FE: Alfred and Lilian.
DK: Lilian. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. And —
DK: So you’re now being looked after separately.
FE: That’s right.
DK: In the —
FE: And as I say I went to Croxton and soon settled in. Very very good people. Treated me like a son. Just like a son and I started calling them mum and dad because well more or less forgetting about my parents.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And as I say they looked after us very well and there was no problem. No problem at all. Mr Woods died and of course she had to look after me on her own. Her son and daughter they was in the forces.
DK: Right.
FE: So they was away.
DK: Yeah.
FE: From home.
DK: Do you know what they were doing in the Forces? Can you recall that?
FE: I think [pause] I think she was in the ATS.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent about that. I don’t know where he was or what he was in but when he came home after the war he was that thin and always said he wasn’t treated very well. That’s all I can remember what —
DK: So he may have been a prisoner of war then.
FE: Could have been.
DK: Yeah.
FE: A prisoner of war. I don’t know.
DK: You don’t know. No.
FE: But yeah, I can always remember looking at him and he was that thin.
[telephone ringing]
DK: I’ll stop there.
[recording paused]
FE: That was my daughter. And where had I got to?
DK: The son came back after the war.
FE: War.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Very thin.
FE: As I say I grew up in the village and went to the village school and got on well at the village school.
DK: Was it, was it, I’m imagining, I’m assuming it was quite a small school then.
FE: Oh yes. It was. Probably thirty pupils in the school.
DK: Right.
FE: There was a big room and a small room as we called it. Two teachers and we lived next door to the policeman and the schoolteacher lived next door to the policeman. So she was one side.
DK: Yeah.
FE: We was the other. And yeah, had a great time living there. Started to get into the countryside ways with a lot of farmers. Spent a lot of time on the farm. And blacksmith. There was a blacksmith, a village shop. There was everything in the village. A bakers, a butchers.
DK: So though although there was rationing at the time you don’t really remember —
FE: I don’t.
DK: Needing to struggle produce wise. Yeah.
FE: I don’t think that we struggled quite obviously because —
DK: It was all locally produced stuff.
FE: We had a big garden.
DK: Right.
FE: We grew a hell of a lot of vegetables.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And we kept a pig in the pigsty at the top of the garden. When you had your pig killed you shared.
DK: Yeah.
FE: With your neighbours.
DK: Yeah.
FE: When they killed —
DK: Shared.
FE: They shared with you.
DK: Oh okay.
FE: So really I don’t think we really struggled. No. I think we was alright for food and Mrs Wood was a very good cook and bottles in the pantry. There was all these bottles all on the shelves full of all the whatever. Blackberries, plums and all the rest of it. Yeah. She was very good. And anyway, I grew up in the village. Had a great time. Got on with all the children. There wasn’t football. We never had a football in those days.
DK: I was going to say you had sort of toys and things to play with. What, what were you —
FE: Well, we didn’t really because there wasn’t a lot.
DK: No.
FE: We used to have a hoop and a stick. Used to run around the road with this hoop and stick. Conkers when it was conker time.
DK: Yeah.
FE: No. We really didn’t have a lot to play with. We had a tennis ball. I can remember having a tennis ball throwing about. But as for a football. No. Whether there was a football in those days I don’t know.
DK: Did you spend a lot of your time during the day then out in the fields and —
FE: Out in the fields.
DK: Running around. Yeah.
FE: I started to get in with the keepers a little bit. There was a keeper in the village and I used to go across to him and he was going on his rounds so I spent a lot of time with him and the farm seemed to be very small in those days.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Just a matter of you know fifty acres that was.
DK: Yeah. They were then weren’t they? Not like the big —
FE: That was the farm.
DK: Farms you get now.
FE: And just up the road there was a farmer. I used to spend a hell of a lot of time with him. He used to let me drive the horse and the cart.
DK: Right.
FE: And of course that was a big thing for a boy out of London to drive a horse [laughs] a horse and cart. And yeah, I spent a hell of a lot of time in the hay field and that sort of thing. And anyway by the time I got to the age of ten my mother wrote a letter and said all the boys had got to go back to London. They could get a council house as long as they had the boys back.
DK: Right. Right. What year would this have been then?
FE: I can’t. Ten years old. ’37. 1940. ’46. ’47. Is that right?
DK: ’47 yeah. So this was after the war then.
FE: This was.
DK: So you were an evacuee then from the period after the Doodlebugs.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So the Doodlebugs ’44.
FE: Yeah.
DK: You’re then evacuated and you were there until 1947.
FE: Seven.
DK: So two years after the war in fact.
FE: Yeah. ’37, ‘38, ‘39, ‘40, ‘45, ‘46, ‘47. Yeah. So I’d be ten year old in ’47 wouldn’t I be?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: That’s when I had to go back to London.
DK: Right.
FE: And of course I said I’m not going back and —
DK: I’m not surprised.
FE: And all the rest. I was a country boy.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: A proper country boy. Grew up running in the fields catching rabbits. They bought me a dog and I used to use that a lot rabbiting and I used to catch these rabbits. And coaches used to stop at the Peacock Inn in the village, that was a public house and I used to make sure I was down there as they was unloading the coaches. Used to say, ‘Anybody want a rabbit?’ ‘Oh, I’ll have one.’ I’ll have two.’ And just used to go with my running dog across the road, into some fields, catch these rabbits and wait there until they came and they’d give you sixpence, a shilling or whatever.
DK: Wow.
FE: And hand over to you.
DK: You don’t do that sort of thing in London do you?
FE: No. Crikey. No. No.
DK: Just, just going back to the period of, of the war while you were up in this area. Can you recall anything of the war? The aircraft or anything going on. The troop movements.
FE: I can remember a plane crashing.
DK: Right.
FE: Along the Saltby Road. In fact, the fence is still there where it went through.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: There was a hedge.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And then I think it landed one side, came across the road into the next field. That’s where the first fence is. I can’t remember seeing the plane.
DK: Right.
FE: No.
DK: You saw the damage afterwards.
FE: Saw the damage. That’s right. And it wasn’t far from the village in fact.
DK: And that’s out at Saltby.
FE: Yeah. On the Saltby Road.
DK: The Saltby Road.
FE: Yeah. And —
DK: Was it, was it a large aircraft? Do you know? Or —
FE: I don’t know —
DK: No.
FE: Anything about it. No. It was just that people said a plane had crashed.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And the only other thing really I can remember was the Yanks.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: When the Yanks came.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Because they used to run after the vehicles and shout, ‘Any gum chum?’ [laughs] and they’d throw you candy or —
DK: Yeah.
FE: You know, chewing gum.
DK: Do you recall them being quite flamboyant then?
FE: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Did you, did you get to speak to any of the American soldiers at all?
FE: Yes. I did because they used to stop and say, ‘What are you doing?’ And all that sort of thing and yeah it was their accent that sort of baffled us a little bit being boys. But yeah, that was quite interesting with the Yanks —
DK: So they were —
FE: Because they had these open jeeps.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So you saw them in the jeeps and they’d sometimes stop and chat to you.
FE: In the jeeps. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yes. But anyway, we had to go back to London and I cried and cried and half the village turned out to say goodbye because I got on with everybody in the village.
DK: Yeah.
FE: They used to make cakes for me and God knows. Give me sweets and —
DK: Did you and your two brothers all go back at the same time?
FE: Yes.
DK: Right.
FE: Except one. One brother went back. The other one stayed on the farm.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: And he never did go back.
DK: Oh right. And he was your older brother.
FE: He was the youngest one.
DK: Ah. Right.
FE: That was born under the table.
DK: Right. Right. So he never went back to your mother then.
FE: So we went back.
DK: Yeah.
FE: To Chingford in Essex.
DK: Just the two of you.
FE: Just the two of us.
DK: You and one brother. Right.
FE: And my sister from Somerset.
DK: Yeah.
FE: She also joined us. But I hated it. Couldn’t settle at all because we were used to country life and —
DK: Presumably you went back to school in Chingford did you?
FE: Went back to school in Chingford. In fact, I’ve still got two or three of my old school books. Yes. Went to the school in Chingford.
DK: And was this a bigger school than—
FE: A massive great school.
DK: Yeah, and you —
FE: Massive great school.
DK: You didn’t settle in I assume.
FE: Didn’t settle at all. My accent was country as you can tell and I used to get bullied. Started getting bullied.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: Anyway, one of the teachers one day he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ Or something. And I said, ‘Oh, I’m getting bullied,’ and all the rest of it and anyway he told me to go to the gym and start boxing.
DK: Right.
FE: So that’s where I used to go three times a week and started boxing and I wouldn’t say I was good but I got quite good and one day I decided. Right. This bully. I’m going to have him today. And he came along the corridor and as he went by you know, like that. And I called his name and he turned around and I got stuck in to him and really gave him a good hiding. His mate stopped me in the end and the teachers got to know and they said, ‘You did a good job there.’ [laughs] I was chuffed to bits.
DK: I’m not sure teachers would do it that, sort that out that way.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Today. Would they, no.
FE: But —
DK: Suggesting or say boxing lessons and [laughs] whack the bully.
FE: That’s right. Boxing lessons.
DK: But sorted the problem out then did it?
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Sorted it out and I never boxed again.
DK: Right.
FE: That was the last time —
DK: Okay.
FE: I ever did. And we couldn’t settle. We used to go my brother and myself we used to go out, for long walks. Epping Forest. We used to go to Epping Forest and spent hours in Epping Forest just walking through the wood and all the rest of it. And one day we came to this public house and outside was a massive great tank. And it said on the wall above it, ‘Pull the chain and see the otter.’ So of course we’d see the otter. Pulled the chain so we pulled this chain out very very gently and there was a kettle at the end of the chain [laughs] Isn’t it funny how things stand out.
DK: How bizarre.
FE: In your mind isn’t it?
DK: Do you think then that your walks into Epping Forest you were trying to recreate living in the countryside?
FE: I think we was, you know and it was to get away from our parents as well. We could not get on with our parents.
DK: No.
FE: No. They was completely different to Mr and Mrs Woods. I couldn’t get on with them. My brother, he started to get on with them a little bit and my sister did. But no. I couldn’t get on with them at all. And —
DK: Did you think you were perhaps a little resentful then that you had to go back to the, I suppose your parents are strangers now aren’t they?
FE: That’s right. They’re complete strangers. In fact, I didn’t even recognise my mother.
DK: Really.
FE: No. No. I didn’t know her at all.
DK: That’s sad.
FE: And anyway we had to stand it. We went to the, to school and when I got to, we used to come down here for holidays back to Croxton and really enjoyed it. Never wanted to go back but had to go back and —
DK: How did you get up here in those days? Did you come by train or —
FE: Came by train.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah. And I used to get pocket money while I was down here to pay to get back and also pay for me to come back next time. Summer holidays. And when I got to fifteen I decided to run away —
DK: Right.
FE: And to come back down here. And I told me brother and my sister and anyway I packed a few things in a case and when my parents were wherever out the door I went and away I went. I knew the way roughly because I’d done it a few times. Got to King’s Cross. Got on the train. I thought it stopped at Grantham. It went straight through Grantham to Doncaster.
DK: Oh.
FE: So of course it was panic stations.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And I got off at Doncaster. Didn’t know what to do. Saw a policeman and I went to the policeman and said, ‘I want to get back to Grantham.’ And of course they started enquiring, ‘What are you doing?’ I told them that I’d run away from home. I wanted to get to Coxton Kerrial on the way to Melton Mowbray and anyway after a while they loaded us up in the police car. Took me back to Grantham to get on a bus. Put me on a bus to Croxton Kerrial.
DK: So the police didn’t think about sending you back to London then.
FE: No.
DK: No.
FE: No. They was going to get, well in fact they did get in touch with a police station in London —
DK: Yeah.
FE: And said, ‘We’ve got your son here.’ What they said I can’t imagine but anyway, I ended up at Croxton and walked through the door because in those days you didn’t knock at the door you just walked in. Everybody’s house you just walked in. Walked in and they were sitting around the old black lead grate. I can see them sitting there now. A big fire. A kettle on and anyway they looked and said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I said, ‘I’ve come to stay. Can I?’ And they said, ‘Of course you can but what about your mum and dad?’ I said, ‘They don’t know where I am but the policeman’s rung them and I think he’s told them.’ And anyway, they got in touch with my parents or the police or whoever and my parents knew that I couldn’t settle with them so they said, ‘Alright. He can stay with you.’ So that was the start of it. I soon settled back into country life again.
DK: So you never went back to London to live then.
FE: Never went back to London. Never saw my parents again.
DK: Really?
FE: No. I just did not like them.
DK: Oh wow.
FE: And I made sure that I didn’t see them again.
DK: Right.
FE: My father died crossing the road in London. He worked as a cabinet maker.
DK: Right.
FE: And he was crossing the road in London got knocked down and killed and nobody came forward and said, ‘I saw what happened.’ And all those people yet nobody came forward. And yes, my mother I think, I think she, I’m not a hundred percent sure but I think she did die of cancer.
DK: Right.
FE: And no, as I say I never saw them again. So it came to time to think about work and of course, with being on the farms as much as I did as a boy I thought, ‘Right. Farm work.’ You know, that’ll be the thing for me.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Although I did spend a lot of time with keepers. And anyway I started on the farm. I had to be there at 7 o’clock in the morning ‘til 5. Six and a half days a week.
DK: Can you recall where that farm was?
FE: That farm was the Shipman’s farm where I was—
DK: Oh right.
FE: First evacuated to.
DK: Right. Right. So you’d gone back to the farm you —
FE: Gone back to the farm.
DK: Where you were evacuated to —
FE: Evacuated.
DK: Right.
FE: As a start —
DK: Yeah.
FE: That’s where I —
DK: Yeah. So you knew the people working there and you knew everybody.
FE: Oh, knew everybody.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: That’s right. And yeah, loved it really because it was still the old binders and horses and the odd thrashing drum with the tractor or whatever attached to it. Still all the old machinery. But of course, as time went on things was changing and the horses began to disappear and the tractors was taking over which I didn’t like. I liked the horses. And [pause] alright?
DK: Yeah. Okay.
FE: And yeah, I got on very well there and I decided to join a handbell team which was in Croxton Kerrial. Mr Farnsworth used to run it. He was a farmer. And joined this team, got on well with the handbells and we was playing at the vicarage and in the distance I could see two girls and I thought she looks alright as you do.
DK: As you do. Yeah.
FE: Yeah. So after we’d finished I went down and said, ‘Would you like to go for a walk?’ And that’s my wife.
DK: Ah.
FE: There.
DK: Well —
FE: And she —
DK: A very attractive lady.
FE: She says, ‘I will as long as long as I can bring my friend.’
DK: Yeah.
FE: I thought bugger. That’s done it. [laughs] And anyway, we did. We went for a walk and that was the start of the romance but I wanted to go into the Army.
DK: Right.
FE: So I, we’d been courting for probably a year or so and I told her I was going to go in the Army and I thought well that will be the end of it. She’ll [pause] but anyway she decided. She said, ‘Alright, I’ll wait for you.’
DK: Okay.
FE: And I went in for four years and —
DK: Was that —
FE: In the Coldstream Guards.
DK: Oh Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Coldstream Guards. And spent most of my time in in London. Did a lot of the Guards. Did the lining of the Mall and all those sorts of things which the Guards did.
DK: So —
FE: And Trooping the Colour and —
DK: So would this have been the 1950s or the 1960s we’re looking at when you were involved?
FE: I went in in ’56.
DK: ’56. Right. Okay.
FE: In the Army.
DK: So late 1950s then.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah, and got on very well. No problems at all. Never got made up which I hoped I would but never did but doing a lot of the Guards, Tower of London and Bank of England. We used to do the Bank of England. The Tower of London. Oh, I can’t remember the names of them now.
DK: So how many Trooping the Colours did you do then?
FE: Two.
DK: Two.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. We used to be outside the Palace on guard. In those days you was outside. You used to have your sentry box. Two of you. And outside the railings and you had the signal when you was going to march you up and down to the other one at the other end. Tapped your rifle.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Two, two taps and then you’d both start to march up and down. And then when you was going to go back to your sentry box you you were swinging your arms and did two. That was the signal.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You used to get a lot of dates. The girls would come up and, ‘Meet me at —’ so and so and you’d put them up your sleeve.
DK: Oh right.
FE: So when you got back to barracks you shared them out with your, with your mates [laughs] and yeah sometimes you know I was being faithful. Yeah, some nice girls. No doubt about it but there was quite a few rough ones. And —
DK: So you got married then after you came out the Army.
FE: After I came out the Army I got married more or less straightaway and soon a daughter was on the way. And —
DK: Did you go back into farming then after that? Or —
FE: I was going to I thought I’d end up back on the farm where I originally worked but he’d set somebody else on in the meantime because he didn’t know how long I was going to be.
DK: Yeah.
FE: In the Forces or whatever and he said, ‘I’m ever so sorry. I can’t give you a job.’ But anyway, word got around that I was looking for work and a farmer in the same village I lived he came and offered me a job. And which I accepted and there was a house with it.
DK: Which village was this then?
FE: Croxton Kerrial.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah, so anyway I accepted the job, a decent little house along the Saltby Road and enjoyed it on that farm. It was very good. I took a lot of responsibility because he was getting old and did a lot of the, a lot of the work no doubt about it. But I was getting in with the keepers a lot. Helping keepers. I was very interested in keepering and anyway one day I was hedge cutting and this car stopped on a Tuesday morning and he was watching and then he drove off. But the next Tuesday he was there again and so I got out and I went across the road to him and I said, ‘Do I happen to know you?’ And he said, ‘No.’ But he says, ‘I know all about you.’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And he said, ‘You spend time with the keepers.’ He said, ‘Are you interested in a keeper’s job?’ So of course, I wanted to know all the details and he said it meant setting up a shoot at Londonthorpe.
DK: Okay.
FE: That was Belton Estate.
DK: Oh right. On the Belton Estate. Okay.
FE: The Belton Estate. And it was a syndicate that wanted to set up this shoot and offered me the job.
DK: Was that before the Belton Estate became National Trust then?
FE: Yes.
DK: Right.
FE: Before then. Yeah. And anyway, I accepted the job. I had a hell of a job to get there. When we moved it were, oh my God snow. I don’t know how deep it was but it took a long while before it went. But eventually we moved in.
DK: This wasn’t the very bad winter of about 1962.
FE: No. I don’t think it was.
DK: The next one.
FE: No.
DK: So this would have been the 1960s then would it?
FE: It would have been the ‘60s.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And settled in. It was a big farmhouse. Cold. Very very cold in the winter. Beautiful in the summer. Set up this shoot which was a big thing because I’d never.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You know I’d just been with the keepers and then just suddenly —
DK: You were in charge of it all.
FE: I was responsible —
DK: Yeah.
FE: For a shoot.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And we was rearing with broody hens in those days. Used to put the eggs twenty, twenty two eggs under one hen and used to have a row of sitting boxes with all these broody hens in and got on very well. And then of course it got more modernised and we, I started having Rupert Brooders. You could put a hundred chicks under one of these.
DK: So what type of people that came out on the shoots then? Were they from the estate or were they from outside or —
FE: No. They was from, from all over. Some, some were farmers. Some were businessmen.
DK: Right.
FE: You know. Those sort of people.
DK: So you had to organise their visit and the shoots.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: My wife used to do their lunches on a shoot day.
DK: Right.
FE: We used to have ten, ten day shooting. She used to do the lunches but the only trouble with, with them they stayed too late at night drinking. Oh God. They was in my house because they had a room in my house.
DK: Right.
FE: 10 o’clock at night they’d still be there.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: And —
DK: They liked their drink did they?
FE: They liked their drink.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: Of course, in those days the police wasn’t about.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Or bothered or anything. And they used to get in a fair old state some of them. I can remember one day one of them was driving out and he went up on my grass and took the clothesline with him as he went out [laughs] Out the gate.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: And then they used to go down to Londonthorpe village and have another session there with somebody. So God knows what they was like when they got home if some of them got home.
DK: Yeah.
FE: If some of them got home.
DK: So were they were they sort of regulars then that you tended to see that came on these shoots?
FE: Yes, it was mostly rich people.
DK: Yeah. I was going to say.
FE: Rich people.
DK: And you tended to see the same ones again.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Each time.
FE: They could invite guests.
DK: Right.
FE: Yes. They could. Which several of them did. If they couldn’t get it for business or whatever.
DK: Yeah.
FE: They’d let somebody else —
DK: Else go.
FE: Go in their place. But there was one funny thing happened because there were still poachers in those days and of course pheasants was worth five pounds a brace where now you can’t give them away.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And that was a lot of money.
DK: Right.
FE: In those days. And anyway, I had a phone call saying there was poachers up in such and such a wood. Belmont Wood. And we all helped each other, the keepers. So got we got radios, got in touch with the keepers because I knew they’d be out on their rounds and we all met and went up to this wood where the poachers was and we decided we’d walk straight down the side of the wood. There was a sort of a ride and we walked down this ride. We could see these two chaps and we got within a hundred yards of them and this Alsatian came up and smelled one of us and the other one turned and run. I thought that was strange. Alsatians. Still never clicked. But anyway, we decided we was going to surround them and jump out on them with the sticks and what have you and we jumped out and shouted, ‘Stand still.’ Which they did and it was two policemen dog training. Of course, we all started laughing like mad when we found out it was two policemen and one of them said, ‘Please don’t tell anybody at the police station will you.’ [laughs] And yeah that was very funny that was. We had a good night that night after. But —
DK: Was poaching in those days a real problem then?
FE: It was for about two years and then it began to ease off because I was only a matter of what two miles from Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And the poachers came from Grantham.
DK: Right.
FE: They could walk you see or bicycle and hide the bicycle —
DK: Yeah.
FE: Under the hedge somewhere. We knew who the poachers was. We knew their names and where they lived and everything.
DK: Yeah.
FE: But it was one of those things. You had to stop out at night and hope that you caught them or they didn’t come because they found out that you was out. One night I did get poached. And I was feeding in the wood and I thought that the pheasants seemed a bit, a bit wild, a bit spooky and I started having a look around and found some feathers. And then walked a little bit more and found some more feathers and I knew that they had been. It must have been the night that I wasn’t out or something. And anyway, in those days we had alarm guns. And in fact, I had mine made and made for me. And you put a cartridge in and you had a trip wire that went across and when you tripped the wire it set it off and bang! In the middle of the night that would be a hell of a noise.
DK: Right.
FE: And anyway, I set this up on the place where I thought well if they come this is where they’re going to walk. Not walk through the thick briars. It was just a little track and I went the next morning and had a look and I could see that it had gone off and I had a look around and couldn’t find any falls at all. And then I saw a cap laying up.
DK: Right.
FE: It must have gone off.
DK: And he’d —
FE: Frightened them that much.
DK: Lost his cap and run.
FE: Set off running or something.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And left his cap behind [laughs] you know.
DK: So, so were you still working at Belton House then at this time?
FE: At Belton.
DK: Belton Estate or something.
FE: Yeah. It was nothing to do with Belton Estate. It was their land.
DK: Right.
FE: But they rented it. The shoot actually rented the land.
DK: I see.
FE: For the shoot.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah. But it was still Belton Estate.
DK: So how long were you there for then?
FE: Well, suddenly one day one of the syndicate came to me and said, ‘I’m ever so sorry. I’ve got some bad news.’ I thought, ‘Oh, what’s that?’ He said, ‘Belton Estate is going to the National Trust and they don’t allow shooting.’
DK: Ah, so —
FE: So I was —
DK: So you actually lost your job because the National Trust had taken over.
FE: I was out of a job.
DK: Oh.
FE: Because of the National Trust.
DK: Oh right.
FE: And anyway —
DK: I bet, I bet you weren’t too pleased about that at the time.
FE: I wasn’t. No.
DK: No.
FE: But there you are. One of those things. I thought well I’ve got to start looking for another keeper’s job somewhere but we had another shoot day and one of the syndicates said to me, ‘Don’t worry about losing your job. I think I’ve got another one for you lined up.’ So he said meet me —’ so and so and we’ll go to where this which was at Burton Coggles.
DK: Right.
FE: Just down the road.
DK: Right.
FE: And Sir Monty Cholmeley. So we met Sir Monty and I said, ‘Well, I’d like to look around.’
DK: That’s Sir Monty Cholmeley.
FE: Yeah. Sir Monty Cholmeley.
DK: Right. He was the local landowner presumably.
FE: Yes. Well, he owned the estate.
DK: Yeah. Right.
FE: A small estate.
DK: Right.
FE: Easton Estate and anyway we met Sir Monty. He took us for a ride all the way around and showed me the woods and what not and told me that they had twelve shoot days a year and all what I wanted to know about the shoot and I took the job. Accepted the job.
DK: Right.
FE: He was a very very good boss. No problem at all. You meet him when you was on your rounds. He would always come and talk and offer you a drop of whisky out his bottle and yeah got on really well with him. Had some good shoot days. Things seemed to go well.
DK: So are we in to the 1970s now then? About that time? Just so —
FE: It would be. It would be about the ‘70s wouldn’t it because I was at Belton ten years.
DK: Right.
FE: So that had, let’s think [pause] Went in to ’56 in the Army. It would be ‘60 when I came out. Ten years. That makes it ’70. It would be.
DK: 1970.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got on very well. Had some good shoots. Decided to set another keeper on to work with me. Got on very well with Barry. He was a good keeper. Got on very well with him and we made a nice, a nice shoot and anyway decided to retire at the age of sixty, sixty seven.
DK: Okay.
FE: Decided to retire and the boss was having a meeting. He said he wanted me at the meeting and I went and he said, ‘Right. You are retiring. This is what’s happening to you. I’m giving you a house rate and rent free for the rest of your life.’
DK: Wow.
FE: And that’s this one.
DK: And it’s this one. Right.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Wow.
FE: And so I’ve been here [pause] oh God. About eighteen years I think.
DK: Eighteen. Eighteen years.
FE: Eighteen, something but yeah. Crikey where has that time gone? I can’t believe that.
DK: Well, we’ve come full circle around to your retirement home so I’ll stop the recording now.
FE: Yes.
DK: Because I think I’ve got everything I need. It’s got your story about your evacuation and what you did after the war.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So thanks very much for that. That’s been most enjoyable and most interesting but I’m going to switch this off now.
FE: Yeah.
[recording paused]
FE: Mind really I just did it for friends.
DK: So this was the book that you wrote.
FE: Yeah. And sold. Oh, I don’t know what it was. Fifty in the first week.
DK: So was it a privately published book then, was it?
FE: Yeah.
DK: Right.
FE: And anyway, all the books went and somebody said, ‘Oh have you got a book left?’ And I said, ‘Well, you can borrow mine.’ I can’t remember who it was. Never got it back. So I’m the only one without a book.
DK: Without a copy of it.
FE: Without a copy of the book.
DK: Can you remember what it was called?
FE: “London Evacuee to Countryman.” You can still get it.
DK: London Evacuee —
FE: “Evacuee to Countryman.”
DK: Country man. Okay. What, I’ll see if I can get hold of a copy.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You’ll be able to get a copy.
DK: If I get two I’ll —
FE: I’ve also been.
DK: Send one on to you.
FE: I’ve also been in two magazines.
DK: Right. [pause] So that’s the “Sporting Shooter.” [paper rustling]
FE: Yes. And I’ve also been in the “Lincolnshire Life.”
DK: In, “Lincolnshire Life.”
FE: I think it was, “Lincolnshire Life.”
DK: Yeah. So they did an article about you there then.
FE: That’s what I got it off when I came out of hospital.
DK: Very good.
FE: Good isn’t it? That’s it.
DK: Oh right. So this is where are we? So this is, oh it’s quite recent then. August 2022.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Oh, so I’ll just make a note of this. August 2022 of the, “Sporting Shooter.” What are we? Page thirty four. Page thirty five. Okay.
FE: I’ve also got the other one in the cupboard behind you.
DK: Oh right. So this, this covers your story of the Doodlebugs.
FE: Yeah.
DK: And going out to [pause] on page thirty six. I’ll have a look at that. Oh right. So do, do you still shoot at all or —
FE: I packed it up probably ten years ago.
DK: Right.
FE: I found that I couldn’t swing the same.
DK: Right.
FE: The old joints with arthritis.
DK: Not quite as good.
FE: I thought well now’s the time to —
DE: To give it up.
FE: Give it up. So —
DK: Just put this back on again. Its rather odd that in some ways because you became an evacuee and came out here it totally changed your life and the direction you would have been taking.
FE: Completely.
DK: So in some ways, well in almost all respects it was actually a good thing that you became an evacuee. Saw a different life outside London.
FE: That’s right.
DK: And then had a life and a career from that.
FE: That’s right. What if I’d stayed in London what would have happened? I could have been killed. Just don’t know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: What would have happened.
DK: Well, your career would have been totally different wouldn’t it?
FE: Totally different. I would have probably been with my father cabinet making or whatever.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You don’t know do you?
DK: No.
FE: What could have happened.
DK: Okay then. I’m going to stop this again now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Edwards
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-11
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:56:16 Audio Recording
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AEdwardsF2-220811, PEdwardsF2-2201
Coverage
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Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Melton Mowbray
Description
An account of the resource
Frank was born in London. He describes V-1 coming over and taking shelter in the London underground.
Frank talks of his evacuation to the countryside near Croxton Kerrial when he was nearly five. He was accompanied by his two brothers and initially his mother. His sister was sent to Somerset. He enjoyed his time in the countryside and shares memories about the people who looked after him, his school, mealtimes and leisure time pursuits.
Frank reluctantly returned to Chingford in Essex two years after the end of the war. He missed the countryside and was bullied at school. At the aged of 15, he ran away to Croxton Kerrial, to which his parents subsequently agreed. He never saw his parents again.
He started work on a farm and met his wife. After four years in the Coldstream Guards, he married and worked on another farm in Croxton. Frank then moved to Londonthorpe to set up the shoot. The shoot rented the land from the Belton Estate. When the estate was bought by the National Trust, no shooting was permitted. He was taken on as keeper by Sir Montague Cholmeley. After retirement, the latter let him live rent free.
Frank has written a book, “London Evacuee to Countryman” and appeared in Sporting Shooter and Lincolnshire Life magazines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1113/11603/PSaunstonFR1701.1.jpg
ca99bc450ba7136ba5c937a1abc3cc8f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1113/11603/ASaunstonFR170522.2.mp3
a4ce3e36837e8676e9a26f29cb7f3ed4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunston, Frank
Frank R Saunston
F R Saunston
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Stanston (b. 1925). He helped to pack supplies for Operation Manna.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Saunston, FR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre talking to Frank Staunton at his home on the 22nd of May. That’s ok.
US: I’ll show you these afterwards.
DK: Yeah, I can have a look now, that’s ok. I’ve got the recording going so, I’ll just leave that there. Alright, oh, ok. So, that’s from the Dutch, isn’t it?
US: Yeah.
DK: That’s the Ambassador of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
US: Yes
DK: That’s a contribution to Manna and then Operation Manna there. So, that’s the Manna Association, isn’t it?
US: Yes. It has something to do with Lincoln?
DK: Yes, oh yes, yes, all aspects of Bomber Command, the groundcrews,
US: Yes
DK: The bombing campaign and the Operation Manna and that sort of thing
US: Oh, just I didn’t realise the date was on it till just now.
DK: Yeah
US: The 20th of April to the 8th of May 1945.
DK: [unclear], isn’t it?
US: Yeah, yeah and that came with
DK: The medal as well. Ok.
US: Yes, and he got the medal and he had to wear that one [unclear] on parade
DK: Right, ok.
US: Yeah, yeah.
FS: Fifty years afterwards
DK: Better, better late than never
FS: Pardon?
DK: Better late than never.
US: Yes was quite [unclear] in that case
DK: Lovely, lovely [unclear] medal, isn’t it?
US: Yeah, that is lovely.
DK: Yeah
US: [unclear]
FS: [unclear] now, that’s the only one in 149 Squadron and 662 cause anybody’s got one
DK: Really?
FS: Yeah, cause I’ve been on the Mildenhall register
DK: Right
FS: And the man at the Mildenhall register didn’t know anything about it and I told him what it was for and he said, well, nobody else has got one
DK: Ah, right. Can I just ask, to start with, what were you doing immediately before the war?
FS: Sorry?
DK: What were you doing immediately before the war?
FS: I’ll start from the beginning.
DK: Yes, sure, please, yes
FS: When I left school, I left school in August 1939 and I had various jobs before I got a job as a garden assistant at [unclear] and while I was there the local ATC started on the 14th of May 1941 I joined the local squadron 1406 [unclear] Holbeach when it was formed I was interested in going into the Air Force and so I volunteered to join the RAF in 1942 and I went and had a medical and passed the medical and they said they would call me when they needed me and so I had to wait until I think it was about November 1943 when they said, we’ll call you up on and sent me a date of the 12th of January 1944 and so I joined the RAF and I went down to ACRC in London and did all the kitting and all the main and drilling and that sort of thing but because I was a local boy and I didn’t go to grammar school, my education wasn’t quite the standard that was required, so they sent me on a training course at Liverpool to 19, number 19 PACT it was called, Pre Air Crew Training Course where we spent six months in the Liverpool College of Commerce and at Liverpool [unclear] Street Technical College and together with the training, initial training, drilling and all that sort of thing, that lasted six months. After six months we went back down to St John’s Wood where we was reassessed, well, I was down to pilot, navigator, bomb aimer but they, the actual medical side to do with the pilot side of it was that my legs weren’t long enough. So, because, they said my legs weren’t long enough and they didn’t want any navigators and they got no call for bomb aimers, would I take a second job and as and because I had a very good aptitude I was selected to become an air gunner but they didn’t want any air gunners, so they sent us on a course, training course down at Babbacombe, Paignton and Torquay and after we’ve been down there for three months they said, well, they couldn’t really feed, they couldn’t really afford to feed us, they needed people in other jobs, would we take another job? So, we said, yeah, well, what are they? And they said, well, you can go clerk GD, general duties or you can become a transport driver because we are short of vehicle drivers so I said, I wanna go for that one , cause I thought, I might as well ride the [unclear] [laughs]. Anyway we went on the course down at Melksham in Wiltshire and it lasted eight weeks and in eight weeks’ time, you had to learn to drive all the vehicles that the RAF had and my last job was to drive the Queen Mary which was sixty some odd foot long. I left there and was posted to Peplow in Shropshire where we used to start the tractors for the WAAFs in the morning cause Peplow at that time was training glider pilots for Arnhem and D-Day and because we were doing this course, we stayed with them until that course ended and when it ended they transferred me down to Methwold in Norfolk and that was on Bomber Command where 149 and 622 Squadron were based and it was while I was there, I had the job of forklift driver in the bomb dump and we used to load the bombs onto the trolleys and we used to load the trolleys in a train to take round to the aircraft to bomb up and a Lancaster bomber squadron [unclear] when it comes to feeding them [unclear] about twenty two bombs of some kind or canisters of some kind or one big bomb which was one odd thing but anyway we were doing that and one day we had a senior officer coming down to the squadron and a fortnight later we had this thing come through that we, apparently we’re going to send food to people who were starving in Holland called Operation Manna and it was on that job that I did actually did load and did suggest some ways of the stuff landing on the ground because you wrap a sack of flour in its own right, you drop a sack of flour and it hits the ground, it bursts, it throws it out [unclear] fan shape and it’s no more good to anybody so that was decided how was we going to drop it and so we had this talk about it and we said, well, if you put that bag in a bigger bag, a clothing woven one, the bigger bag would catch the contents and so we put this ordinary sack of flour, a standard sack of flour, it’s about sixteen stone I think or fourteen stone into a railway sack as we call them which were big and used to carry corn on the railway and stick them up and that and we dropped, at the second drop we did with that it did burst open but the contents inside was all in, you know, thrown about and they found that it would be difficult to salvage all the contents without losing all [unclear] in the fabric material so we said, what else can we do? So, I said, well, the best thing I can think of is if you get that bag of flour in a railway sack which is about twice its size and then you put it in the bigger one which is bigger still which the farmers locally called [unclear] bags because [unclear] from the local factory was sent out to the farms in these huge sacks so if you put it in that one and you stitch it up in that one and you roll it up in that one when it came down the weight of the flour at the front would cause the thing to open up and the back end would flap and because it’s flapping, it retarded the fall and we tried that and it worked.
DK: It worked.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And these were being dropped out the Lancasters, were they?
FS: Pardon?
DK: They were being dropped out of Lancasters.
FS: Lancasters, Stirlings as well.
DK: Stirlings as well.
FS: Yeah
DK: Right.
FS: But they dropped them out the Lancasters and then the other thing was they always [unclear] get them in the Lancaster so someone came up on this big thing, I don’t know who made them but they came to us in a lorry load and they called them panniers
DK: Yeah
FS: A pannier would fix into the bomb bay, either side, yeah, and then you could shut the doors and that was all enclosed and so that was decided on, so we did two drops for panniers and that was quite successful. What I wouldn’t say is to drop things at two hundred and plus miles an hour you don’t get the results you think you gonna get, because a large can of corned beef dropped at two hundred miles an hour on the airfield [unclear], it would go in the ground as a big can of corned beef and go down about two foot in the ground because it was [unclear], it would come up on top and when it come on [unclear], it was fat as your book. Absolutely but it [unclear] burst the can
DK: Alright.
FS: No, so they decided it wouldn’t matter which way it dropped, it would still be usable.
DK: The contents were still ok?
FS: Yes, inside, yes. And that what I had and then when I came out the RAF, I mean, finished me course as an air gunner, I mean, done the jobs at Methwold and at the [unclear] base, I went to, went to the, finalized me course and I finished up as an air gunner on Sunderland flying boats.
DK: Alright.
FS: Yeah. So that’s my life story.
DK: Do you know which squadron you were with, with the Sunderlands?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Do you know which squadron it was with the Sunderlands?
FS: Scotland?
DK: The Sunderlands.
FS: Yes
DK: At which squadron?
FS: I wasn’t with the squadron.
DK: Ah, right, ok.
FS: I was with a ferry unit
DK: Ferry unit, right, ok.
FS: Yeah. I was, I went to, squadron, [unclear] RAF [unclear] in Scotland
DK: Right
FS: Or [unclear] if you like and we were based on a distillery
DK: Oh right [laughs]
FS: Yes. Very nice,
DK: Very nice
FS: Anyway, I did, I joined the course a crew and there was ten of us in a crew and we did [unclear] because by that time the war had finished and
DK: The war had ended, right. So you
FS: There was still [unclear] submarines still out there even then but we used to do patrol out over the Atlantic at places like Rockpool, I went to Iceland, went to [unclear] in the Shetlands, places like that, while I was there and then when we came back we were going to go to Singapore and the crew had slept in our billet with us two days before they took off and went and we were due to go the next day down to [unclear] to get equipped for the temperature, you know, shorts and all that sort of thing and we were going off in to Singapore but the crew that went down the day before were taking off and we were taking off at about quarter past two in the morning and the crew that went down the day before they took off and on the takeoff they lost an engine and they were fully loaded and you got two thousand four hundred and forty eight gallons of fuel on board and they lost an engine and so they told them to climb up as well as they could and on the way up they lost another engine and they got up to about four to five thousand feet and they told him to jettison this fuel and turn in a certain direction but unfortunately the people who were telling them about what to do didn’t realize that there was a two way wind, at the height that they were the wind was blowing in one direction and at a lower level it was blowing in the other direction and so what happened? They told them they had to turn and when they turned they came back in and they came back in to the vapor cloud and it blew up in mid-air completely, nothing left of it, yeah and so our trip, we were going down the [unclear] and we were on the fly path taking off when it was withdrawn.
DK: Alright.
FS: And it was withdrawn,
US: [unclear] thirsty.
FS: And it was
DK: I can stop there for a minute. Yep, there we go,
FS: Anyway, we got our, our trip was aborted and on the station for just over two weeks and they came up with to report they caught us that morning and I went along and they said, now, you aren’t going to Singapore, he said, because you have knowledge of agriculture, of food growing, that job is more important than you becoming an air gunner on a course in Singapore so he said, because it’s paying so much money to America for the food we need to grow our own where we can, so you can go back into agriculture to provide food so they sent me as on class B2 as a reserve and I stayed on that until it was abandoned and I came back home and the family had moved from where we used to live to Sutton St James, father had got us from [unclear] at Sutton St James and so at that point I got a job working for my father on his four acre holding and that was my life.
DK: You had a story about a V1. Yeah, there was a story about a V1?
FS: Oh yeah
DK: Yeah, so could you tell us that story?
FS: When I was back in August having finished a course at Liverpool, we were stationed or billeted in Viceroy Court which is just off the edge of Regent’s Park, very [unclear] block of flats but we did only use the bottom two floors to sleep and it was [unclear] of us in one room with an opening of eighteen inches by nine as the only means of air in the room, there were no doors on, all the doors had been taken out and we’d been having our usual daily exercises in the park, Regent’s Park across the way and we came back in from there and get to change back from PT gear into ordinary dress and we did that on the top floor and cause at that time the air raid warning went all clear at eight o’clock in the morning and at one minute past it went warning again and the doodlebugs started coming over after eight o’clock and we were there getting changed from PT gear into ordinary dress and we heard one coming so we went down on the balcony outside and funnily enough after a few seconds its engine stopped and we knew that when the engine stopped it was about to come down somewhere and there it was, coming through the clouds, straight through our block of flats.
DK: Did you actually see it, coming down?
FS: Oh yeah
DK: Yes, yes
FS: Coming straight for us, ah, well, we all went mad, we, I got down two flights of stairs in the toilet, there’s no doors on the toilet and it was no water in the toilet but I got flat on me chest in the toilet and got one he had covered up but I didn’t get me right here covered and then it went off and then I really funny things cause you got two thousand pounds of TNT going off, makes quite a bang and that was that, anyway we finally got down and they went, now what happened and so apparently this doodlebug coming down instead of coming directly at us as it was, it turned and it ran into the Canal Bank, where the Grand Union Canal is at that point and it ran into the bank outside [unclear] which he lived and it exploded but all the blast went upwards into the air and so the damage to our block of flats wasn’t all that bad, you could put your arms through the wall and shake with the people in the next room but that was apparently because it was a single frame building and it’s only the solid part
DK: [unclear], yeah
FS: That was fractured, yeah and then they sent us down, they sent us up the road to check on the people because mainly all the people in those flats were either relatives of or families of people, forces people working in London
DK: Right, ok.
FS: And so they sent us down to the one that was nearest to where the thing fell and to go and have a look at it was unusual really because we went inside and there was, we met a man in the hall way and he said where did they go? And I said, where did who go? He said, them gang, that gang of blokes, I said, what gang of blokes? He said, well, they come in here and then they [unclear] a big bang, he said, it was, he said, and somebody’s been pinched our wardrobe, I said, what? He said, somebody’s pinched our wardrobe, I said, no, I don’t think so, anyway we arrived, he took us up to where it was and he said, it stood there, against the wall and it’s not here anymore, that gang of blokes took it, I said, I didn’t see any gang of blokes, anyway he was quite, quite confused, quite think about it when a knock came on the door and a woman from two, not the next flat to his but the next flat, she came and she said, I don’t want that! I said, you don’t want what? She said, I don’t want that wardrobe in my house, it’s not my kind of furniture and I said what wardrobe? She said, well, them blokes came and they put a wardrobe against my wall. So, what he meant was the [unclear] of the building must have opened up and the wardrobe went through two rooms and rested against the wall.
DK: Yeah, so it crashed down.
FS: Yeah
DK: So, no men never actually stole it then?
FS: Pardon?
DK: No men actually stole it.
FS: There wasn’t anybody there.
DK: No, it’d gone through the
FS: It’d gone through
DK: Floors. Yeah, strange.
FS: Yeah. So, the whole of the building must have opened up and shut up again. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Strange.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And can I just confirm, whereabouts in London was this?
FS: It’s on the edge of Regent’s Park
DK: On the edge of Regent’s Park, ok.
FS: I’m not sure what road, not sure what road is in. If I got a map
DK: That’s ok, in Regent’s Park it’s ok. Know roughly where it was
FS: Pardon?
DK: That’s ok, Regent’s Park, I know where that is.
FS: Yeah, I can show you exactly where it is. I got a map of London.
DK: Yeah. That’s ok. I got an idea in my head where the canal is.
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. Can I just ask, just going back to your time working in the bomb dumps
FS: Yeah
DK: Did you used to actually load the bombs into the aircraft?
FS: I only loaded them onto the trolley.
DK: Onto the trolleys.
FS: But I loaded out to load the food into the aircraft.
DK: The food into the aircraft
FS: Yeah
DK: So, you had a tractor then, was it?
FS: A forklift
DK: Forklift, and you loaded them down
FS: It was electric
DK: Right
FS: Forklift
DK: Yeah
FS: Didn’t have an engine, is an electric one
DK: Right
FS: He used to plug it in, charge it up overnight if you weren’t using it or when between times, when you got so long between before you load in more stuff
DK: And then, the trollies then went out to the aircraft
FS: As a bomb train, we called it,
DK: Bomb train, yeah
FS: Yeah, cause one lady took my bomb train one night and she had a John Brown, a, yeah John
DK: A tractor, a John Brown tractor
FS: Yeah, she had a John Brown tractor and they were quite big things, quite powerful and they were quite fast if they wanted and she decided to take my bomb train in a hurry and she overturned it and she overturned it on the runway and the bombs came off the trolleys
DK: Right
FS: And then there was a big discussion as to what they were going to do with them and they said, well, the only thing you can do with them is go drop them in the sea and the disposal ground
DK: Right. So, they couldn’t be reused again.
FS: There’s delayed action
DK: Right, ok.
FS: Delayed action bombs and because they had fell off the trolleys, they started the action working, which cut the time down as to about three to four hours
DK: So you had three to four hours to dispose of them.
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
FS: Anyway, they had to call the crews out of bed, they were gonna take them on a trip the next day and load them all up on the aircraft which I did several of them on the aircraft and they flew them off to the dropping zone in the North Sea, it’s just off Dogger Bank somewhere and as the aircraft came back and landed, you could hear the bombs who went off in land and there a thousand pound bombs and they’re quite [unclear] yeah
DK: So, were quite a few of the tractor drivers women then?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Were quite a few of the tractor drivers women?
FS: OH, Quite a lot of them were
DK: Yeah
FS: Quite a lot of them
DK: She wasn’t hurt then, was she, when she rolled it?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Was she hurt when they rolled it? Was she hurt?
FS: She had trapped [unclear] it turned over.
DK: Just the bomb trolley?
FS: Just the bomb trolley.
DK: Right, ok. She was ok then?
FS: Started from the back and the [unclear] went up, yeah.
DK: So she was ok.
FS: Pardon? She was ok
DK: She was ok.
FS: She was ok.
DK: Can you recall what types of bombs you used to pick up?
FS: Pardon?
DK: Can you recall which types of bombs, the types of bombs that you, you picked up with the trolley?
FS: Types?
DK: Types, yeah.
FS: Well, you see, the means of dropping bombs is [unclear] for years and the types of bombs we were dropping were thousand pounders, the American one was the [unclear] on with the top, keep some of them cause they were known to explode and they contained Torpex which is the same stuff as they put in torpedoes and it makes a big bang and it does a lot of damage, we load probably twenty two, twenty one or twenty two of them on an aircraft and that was allowed, they used to take a thousand pound bombs
DK: So, it’s about twenty-one, twenty-two thousand pound bombs
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And were there any bigger bombs you
FS: Bigger ones? Oh, we had four thousand pounders which were [unclear] three section, two section canister at the front end is like a big barrel and the back end was empty and it was nose and tail fuse and three fuses in the nose and three in the tail which unwound when they left the aircraft the safety pin pulled out the fusing thing unwound and fell away and that let the fuse ignite and go to the front and when it hit the ground it went off [unclear] you had the two section one with the tail and you had the three section one
DK: So, they would have been eight thousand pounds and twelve thousand pounds
FS: That’s right, yeah
DK: Right, yeah
FS: And they had these special ones which had dropped on the submarine pens at Brest, but we never handled them, they were done by a couple of chaps with a huge forklift thing that could carry them cause we couldn’t carry them, they were too heavy for us
DK: And were many of the loads incendiary bombs as well?
FS: Incendiary?
DK: Yeah
FS: OH, yeah, yeah [laughs]. You wouldn’t believe it, seven thousand or eight, would ye? The [unclear] the ordinary stick incendiary bombs, there was ninety of those in a canister
DK: Right
FS: They came to us in boxes, right, and we had a canister carrier which took four of those
DK: Right, so that’s four times ninety
FS: Four times ninety
DK: Right
FS: And you only did with those, got a crowbar very carefully took the lid off the box and then you put the fuse in back over and you did all that with them upright and then they took them out [unclear] over come in the aircraft, you could have twenty of those or twenty four, twenty one of those at a time, we reckoned about seven thousand at that time of Dresden and Cologne where we sent a lot of fire bombs and the next after they come up with a load of high explosive and so on and that turned the course of that two weeks we unloaded or offloaded a T3 hangar which is about probably four hundred foot long or twenty seven line, we emptied it in a fortnight
DK: All full of incendiaries?
FS: All incendiaries. Yeah. And the bigger canisters of incendiaries was worked a different way, they were shaped like a bomb and had a copper nose to them and the copper nose had four nozzles facing outwards and when it hit the ground, it exploded but it didn’t explode and blow itself to pieces, but it started off as a fire from these nozzles, sort of high pressured gas burning and they would drop on the ground unless they lay flat on the ground they would turn themselves upright and set fire to everything around them but this was like [unclear] settling well flame sort of thing and there were some which [unclear] and they did quite [unclear] canisters and fused them up yeah.
DK: So, how long would it take to load up a whole squadron of aircraft?
FS: Pardon?
DK: How long would it take
FS: About a day
DK: About a day.
FS: Yeah
DK: So, you’d be out there early morning right through the day
FS: After [unclear]
DK: Yeah [unclear], they took off
FS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
FS: Yeah.
DK: So, it’s a day’s work to load up a whole squadron.
FS: Pardon?
DK: A day’s work to load up a whole squadron.
FS: It [unclear] just a day, you do it again tomorrow
DK: Yeah
FS: Every day the same.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
FS: I think in some cases I only had about three hours sleep at night, probably only about three hours sleep at night.
DK: So, I think that’s very interesting information there, thanks very much for your time. I was just going to ask, what do you think now about your time in the RAF?
FS: What do I think about it?
DK: What do you think about it now.
FS: I wish I’d stayed there. I wish I’d stayed there actually, but I didn’t have that choice more or less, I always say they thought that my job as food production was better serving the country than my career in the RAF was
DK: Yeah. So, you had no choice, you had to come out
FS: I had to, yeah, yeah, I had to come out because I had knowledge of food production, that was the answer
DK: Very, food is very important though, food is very important
FS: Oh yeah, well, when you work out how much they were paying for a boat load of food for America, you can understand why they wanted to stop him [unclear] it and reround it when they could and as I say, I think they most probably, most probably it was a good thing for the country and they wouldn’t be feeding me, would they? I was feeding them.
DK: OK then, I will stop there but thanks very much for that, that’s more or less, that’s, thanks very much for your time. I’ll stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frank Saunston
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaunstonFR170522, PSaunstonFR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:40:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Saunston joined the ATC in 1941 and then the RAF in 1942. He worked as a transport driver at RAF Peplow and then as a forklift driver at RAF Methwold on the bomb dump. Describes his role and his duties and gives details regarding the bombs used. He took part in Operation Manna and tells of how the food was packed and dropped over Holland. Finished up as an air gunner on Sunderland flying boats. Witnessed a V1 dropping on the block of flats where he was stationed near Regent’s Park in London and gives a detailed account of the event. Remembers an aircraft accident when he was posted to Scotland. Tells of how he wanted to stay longer in the RAF but was told to go back to work in food production, where his knowledge of agriculture would have been more useful.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
149 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing up
ground personnel
incendiary device
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Methwold
RAF Peplow
service vehicle
Sunderland
tractor
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1140/11696/AStanneyF160212.2.mp3
37f2199ed0fceec27a2eb56c196c751e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stanney, Frank
F Stanney
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Stanney ( - 2017). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stanney, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, I’ll introduce myself. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Frank Stanney on 12th of February.
FS: 12th
DK: 2016.
FS: Twenty one six.
DK: Yes.
FS: Yes.
DK: 2016. That’s it. Yes. I couldn’t remember the year. Ok. That looks like it’s going ok. So, really what I’d like to know really is, is perhaps if you could say a little bit about how you came to join the RAF.
FS: Well, well for a start I was in the Air Training Corps.
DK: Ok.
FS: Well, that was, I was fifteen, sixteen years old. Because obviously I decided to volunteer for the RAF in 1943.
DK: Ok.
FS: Well, I was only eighteen at the time.
DK: So —
FS: Like thousands more.
DK: So, had you come straight from school or were you working?
FS: Oh no. I left school at fourteen.
DK: Ah ok.
FS: And while we’re on to it Sibsey is just down the road. I was at Sibsey School in 1937.
DK: Ok.
FS: This is not quite the war of course. And this German airship came over. The Hindenburg. We didn’t know what it was at the time.
DK: Right.
FS: But it was the German Hindenburg airship. And when it got back to Germany that night, they were tethering it up and it blew up and caught fire.
DK: Oh right. So —
FS: There’s not many left that saw that.
DK: So you saw the Hindenburg.
FS: But I did.
DK: Oh wow.
FS: And there’s not been many more that did actually. Anyway, and then I was, decided to join in 1943 and I was, I was called up then and went to St Johns Wood in London. I had three weeks there initial training.
DK: If I could just take you back a bit. When you left school at fourteen. Were —
FS: Sorry? Sorry?
DK: Were you working?
FS: I was on the agriculture.
DK: Agriculture.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok. Ok.
FS: Well, that’s all there was to do. And how should I say? There was not many other type of work. Not much at the time in Lincolnshire. Especially Boston. Fishtoft. It was all agriculture —
DK: Right.
FS: Well, and then of course the war. I was, and then getting back to it I was in the, I was there six weeks and I got my calling up papers. I’d already been in. I thought that was quite funny. But I wished now afterwards I’d kept it. But I sent it back and told them to save paper [laughs]. But I wish now I’d kept it for a souvenir thing. However, I went to St Johns Wood. Then I went to [pause] oh dear [pause] Hereford. No. Yeah. Madley. I was stationed at Madley.
DK: Madley.
FS: I think that’s where I got my three stripes and my badge of course. Then we went up to Scotland. Dumfries. To do more training. Came back. I went to Market Harborough to be crewed up with seven, well six young men like myself. Seven.
DK: So, what, what role were you training for then?
FS: Well, I was, already done the Morse code. I’d already learned the Morse code so I was training to do the radio operator.
DK: Radio operator.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
FS: But I’d I thought I was putting in, changing something. I had a brother a year older than myself. He joined the RAF. Now, he did an air gunner’s course and the radio operator and he went straight on Transport Command where they didn’t need air gunners. I didn’t do the air gunner’s course. I went straight on Bomber Command. I can’t quite get over how funny.
DK: Yeah.
FS: However, yeah, Market Harborough. We trained there. Where did we come back to? Lincoln? Wigsley. Wigsley. Does that —
DK: Wigsley. Yeah. Yes.
FS: On Stirlings.
DK: Right.
FS: Because we were Wellingtons at Market Harborough. Then we came on to Stirlings and went in to Syerston at Nottingham on Lancasters.
DK: So, what, so was it an Operational Training Unit you were on?
FS: Yeah. Operational Training. And then of course we came back from Syerston to Skellingthorpe. Not far from where you are. It’s now the Birchwood Estate. 61 Squadron. And that’s where I did my flying from.
DK: Just going back to the Operational Training Units. How did you feel about flying on the Wellingtons?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Was that a good aircraft?
FS: [unclear] Wellingtons we flew in, oh they were terrible things to fly in.
DK: Ok.
FS: You’ve got to have the opportunity but if you ever get the chance they’re awful things to fly in.
DK: What about the Stirling? Was that —
FS: Stirlings were quite good actually. Although they were all electrical but they were quite good but being heavy. But we did like the Lancasters better than the Halifax.
DK: Right. How, how did you crew up? How did you meet your crew? Were you —
FS: Met the crew at Market Harborough.
DK: Right. And how was the crews organized?
FS: Well, shall we say, getting back, as you said to Market Harborough when I went, got on the train to go from here at Boston, the young lad in there was air gunner.
DK: Ok.
FS: And obviously we didn’t know one another but we sat next to one another and he was from Grimsby.
DK: Right.
FS: But he was also going to Market Harborough. So we crewed up together.
DK: On the train.
FS: And he was, he finished up as our mid-upper. But as I said I’m the only one left now. But it was quite interesting. We all got in a big ante-room as they called it. Had the pep talk and one thing and another and the CO as he was then, ‘Well now, you pilots just walk around and choose who you would like to fly for you.’ Well, fortunately for me I was sat next, we didn’t know one another mind you, I was sat next to a pilot and fortunately he asked me if I’d be his radio operator. Course I agreed. Which, he went down to choose his and five minutes later a Canadian came around. He was on his rounds. Would I fly with him? I said, ‘I’m sorry I’ve just chosen,’ you see. Well, a fortnight later this Canadian took off one night and he hit the electric cables at Market Harborough. Killed the lot. I could have been with him. Course you wouldn’t have been here now. Anyway, that was a bit of luck.
DK: Do you think it worked well that you basically found your own crews?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual, being in the military. Normally you’re ordered to do something. This is —
FS: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: This is, this you had to find yourself. Do you think that really worked?
FS: Yeah. And how else do we say? We could move from there to — went to Syerston and fortunately or unfortunately shall we say, a week in January ’45 we couldn’t fly for snow. It was, it was really up to here. So that either saved my life or had to volunteer to do two more. You don’t know. But we didn’t fly for nearly, for above a week. But we were only training and then of course we came to Skellingthorpe and that’s where we set off on the night trips. Daylights. And as I said I did ten. Eight nights and two daylights. One daylight we got the outer, starboard outer shot out but it didn’t, and fortunately it didn’t frighten me but as I stood up, out of my seat to have a look out the right hand window to see if there were any more shell holes. I didn’t know at the time or we didn’t know but we were flying alongside 617 with the ten tonners. As I looked out this [unclear] just released his ten tonner. That was something worth seeing. Not many of them. There was only forty four dropped, I think during the war and I actually saw one being released.
DK: So when you lost the engine —
FS: Yeah.
DK: Had you been attacked by another aircraft or was it —
FS: No. We weren’t attacked. It was anti, anti-aircraft fire.
DK: Ok.
FS: But luckily although call it shot out, it shot out of action. I mean the engine wasn’t shot out itself. We came back on three. Daylight. Comfortable. And funnily enough it never frightened me. I was never frightened at all. I never even fastened my parachute harness up. Never.
DK: Was that the only time your aircraft was hit?
FS: Yeah. Yeah. And the last one we were on was an oil refinery in Norway.
DK: Right.
FS: And that was, shall we, well it was a night but early morning and we could see the Northern Lights shining across. A beautiful sight. [laughs] Sort of a show of colour at the same time.
DK: Right.
FS: But as I just said it never frightened me.
DK: And what did you feel about the Lancaster as an aircraft?
FS: Sorry?
DK: The Lancaster. What did you think of the Lancaster?
FS: The —
DK: The Lancaster. Was it a good aircraft? The Lancaster.
FS: Oh aye. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. How did you feel flying on one of those?
FS: Oh yeah.
DK: Safe?
FS: Yeah. It were alright. Yeah.
Other: How did you feel, he said.
DK: Pardon?
Other: How did you feel flying on one? A Lancaster.
FS: How did I feel?
DK: Yeah.
FS: I enjoyed it. I did really.
DK: Did you feel safe?
FS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yes. As I said, and I wasn’t frightened. I never, funny, knowing that. Even, I mean obviously we were shot at a lot of times but it didn’t frighten me, funnily enough. Not as much as the Mrs does [laughs] We’ve had sixty odd years. Sixty odd years. Now then. What else?
DK: So, what, what was Skellingthorpe like?
FS: Well, as far as I could just remember it was just an ordinary airfield. We had 50 Squadron there which were VN and we were 61 with QR. I’ve got a big picture up there. You can have a look at it. No. Just as far as I can recall it was just an ordinary airfield. 5 Group of course. Which were, we didn’t know at the time but we were supposed to be the group, 5 Group, the group it was but we didn’t know. I mean we were just ordinary airmen.
DK: Yeah. So as, as wireless operator what did you have to do? What were your duties?
FS: Well, one thing we didn’t have to do was go to sleep. No. We used to get a message. I think every half hour. They were not necessarily on the half hour or the hour but at any time half hour.
DK: Right.
FS: So we weren’t asleep. So one two three. I think we got three diversions. Bad weather, fog, weather and so on. So we were diverted different places which was lucky in one. We even had one right down in the New Forest.
DK: Right.
FS: Instead of coming back to Lincolnshire. Right down. Of course we had breakfast there of course. It was quite nice. So, one in Norfolk. Coltishall. But it was quite good. But that was my job. If, I couldn’t really go to sleep although I did have a little shut eye. No doubt a lot of them did. Then what else?
DK: So, so you would receive a message.
FS: Yes.
DK: And then you’d tell your pilot then.
FS: Pilot yes.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Pilot. Navigator.
DK: Pilot. Navigator.
FS: They were, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: I had to tell them. It used to come in Morse code obviously.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Then I had to transfer it. Translate it over. Quite good.
DK: And did you send messages at all?
FS: Not really.
DK: You didn’t communicate with the airfield then?
FS: Probably, I may have done but I can’t really remember doing so. Not. No. I may have done. Yes. When we’ve got a diversion. Yeah. Maybe I had to do. Yeah.
DK: Ok. So, what did you used to do when you weren’t on operations? What did you do on your days off?
FS: Come home and see my girlfriend [laughs]
Other: That’s a silly question [laughs]
FS: Before I met [laughs] hey you ask a silly question. No. I’ll tell you.
DK: Did you go to Lincoln?
FS: Yeah. Obviously it was [unclear] the crew.
DK: Ok.
FS: I had a motorbike at the time.
DK: Ok.
FS: But we hadn’t much petrol. And then we were siphoning some out one of the tankers one day to come home with but it wasn’t too bad actually. You see, not too far from Lincoln this wasn’t. What else could I, that I could remember. May. It was May, shall I say the day the war finished which was May the 8th ’45 we flew to Belgium for a load of ex-prisoners of war but that was the time we went up without parachutes. And we were half way across the Channel when Winston Churchill gave his speech to the end of the war. And when they played the anthem, me being the radio operator I switched the radio on so that the rest of them could hear and we were tried to stand up [laughs] We used to laugh. You’d never seen any, a hell of a, we get, we get to Belgium. Get there. Landed there. Oh it was hot. Middle of May. Well, May the 8th actually and we hadn’t been down there long before the equivalent to our NAAFI came round with coffee and biscuits. But it was ersatz coffee? Have you ever had ersatz coffee?
DK: [unclear]
FS: Have you?
DK: Never had it.
FS: Made with acorns.
DK: Yeah.
FS: It was quite nice actually.
DK: Yeah?
FS: Yeah. And of course we enjoyed this. Load up the twenty four. And before we struck up —
DK: That was, that twenty four prisoners.
FS: Ex-prisoners.
DK: Ex-prisoners of war.
FS: Twenty four.
DK: So you got twenty four on the Lancaster.
FS: If you, have you seen in one?
DK: I have, yes. Yes.
FS: Now, can you imagine how we got twenty four in? There were three of them. When I was sat here as I am now I look out of the window and my radio was here in front obviously but when we got airborne I had to get on my hands and knees and let all the airmen out. But before we struck up I had to have a word with these three so there’d be sign language when I wanted to [unclear] asked them, I told them I would have to get down and move. So when we got airborne I had to mumble mumble and they moved. And I explained to them that when we come into land I had to do the alternative, you see. It was quite good actually. But when we dropped these off at Grantham, sorry Peterborough we flew back to our own base of course. Handed in our flying kit, and gear and had a meal. And the flight engineer and myself, unfortunately we went to the sergeant’s mess and got drunk. I was violently drunk.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But I managed to get home the next day to Boston. It was May time and May Fair was on at Boston. The May Fair. But I didn’t know just at the time but there was a soldier got slung off one of these rides in Boston and was killed.
DK: Right.
FS: Just on May Fair. I don’t know what, quite today but May the 8th was the fair but it was somewhere just on there.
DK: Off a bus.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Oh dear.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Just going back to the prisoners you picked up.
FS: Yeah.
DK: What, what was their reaction to going home? How did they —
FS: Well, they got in with rifles and bayonets and boots. It was interesting there to watch them with their souvenirs.
DK: Right.
FS: They got masses of things but I mean we were, we couldn’t take a photograph or anything. I wish we could. But it was quite interesting to see what they’d got. Big boots as I just said. Helmets and all sorts they’d got. And then we had another one a bit later on. But then August the 15th was the end of the Japanese war because we were training. We’d volunteered for it actually. The whole crews had volunteered but —
DK: Were you expecting to go out?
FS: Yeah.
DK: To the Far East?
FS: We were expecting —
DK: Yeah.
FS: To go out, yes. In fact, we got, now then, Oh I can’t remember now where we were actually going to be but somewhere near Russia we were going to be. And fly from there to Japan. But as I just said the war finished just in time. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were bombed.
DK: Yeah. How did you feel about that? Did you feel relieved you weren’t going to the Far East?
FS: Sorry?
DK: How did you feel about not going to the Far East?
FS: Up to a point I was disappointed. But other than that I was pleased because it was nasty. It was really nasty. But then, August the, yeah we went to Italy flying ex-prisoners of war back. Sorry. Ex —
DK: Army.
FS: Desert Rats, home from, there was a transit camp in Italy. We had five trips to Italy flying ex-prisoners. Ex —
DK: Yeah.
FS: And that was quite good but one day we’d got all loaded up. We’d only twenty in, mind you then. Not twenty four. Starboard outer wouldn’t start up because getting back it was just hot. We couldn’t run the engines up like we did in this country. We had to, as soon as we got struck up, taxied around but we got belting down the runway, the starboard outer wouldn’t pick up. So it was brakes on, flaps still down. We stopped. We’d five days in Italy without any money [laughs] It was quite interesting. Quite interesting because it gave us the chance, mind you it was all, the one thing what I didn’t see which I didn’t know existed was the Leaning Tower. Now, we didn’t and even if we had we couldn’t have got there because we were stationed just outside Naples. The Leaning Tower was like from here to Blackpool and it was this, but it gave us the chance to get to Sorrento which was a beautiful place. The Bay of Naples which I went swimming in. Naples itself of course and pause] oh dear. What was the other place? [pause] Tell you. Oh crikey. It covered up in the ashes from —
DK: Pompeii.
FS: Pompeii. Thank you. I went there. Yeah. We went down there.
DK: Ah.
FS: Have you been?
DK: I have. Yes. Yes.
FS: Did you see all what I saw?
DK: Yes. It’s an amazing place.
FS: Did you see it? Did you? It was quite interesting there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: Yeah. Quite interesting really but it’s awful to see the women with the children. Oh it was awful.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But that big man on the wall. Did you see him?
DK: Yes.
FS: [laughs] Can’t tell you [coughs] It was quite interesting.
DK: How, how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command? How does it make you feel now? Seventy years later?
FS: Well, it makes me feel pleased really that we did something. As I said I don’t know where I would have been if I’d been called up. Even though I wouldn’t have gone in the army anyway. Or the Navy. Do you know I couldn’t have gone in the navy.
DK: No.
FS: I couldn’t. I was pleased what I did.
DK: So did you come out of the Air Force soon after the war or —
FS: Yeah. I went in at eighteen.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Which was ’43. I was made a sergeant of course. Then a flight sergeant. Then when I was nineteen, flight sergeant when I was twenty. Demobbed at twenty one. That was the end of the war you see.
DK: And, and after that did you come back to Lincoln and work on the — ?
FS: Yeah. Came, we moved to Sturgate. That’s where we were flying abroad from Sturgate.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: But that was, that wasn’t too bad. Right out in the country of course. Near Gainsborough as you know. And a bit further [coughs] excuse me a bit further to come home from there, it was. It was probably worth it in the long run because I’d got a girlfriend. She was a bit keen.
Other: [laughs]
FS: Then the wife she pushed her out [laughs] and then we crewed up together you see. And we’ve had sixty long, sixty some years.
Other: Sixty two.
DK: Well done.
Other: About 1952 wasn’t it? When we got married.
FS: We met. We’ve been, well we had this house built of course. We’ve been down here fifty odd years haven’t we? When we moved here, this was after the war of course there was oh a big house. A huge double fronted house. Old. Twelve inch beams across the ceilings which now I’ve regretted having it knocked down. But it was facing that way.
DK: Yeah. Old building.
FS: But we couldn’t afford to have it done up. It was cheaper to have this built than that one.
DK: Yeah.
FS: But that was just before old properties started to go up in price.
DK: Yeah.
FS: And, I mean we can’t help it now but I’ve regretted it. Haven’t we? It would have been worth more than I am. It would be worth more than I am.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
FS: Yeah. Stayed in touch with them like. All, all six of them up to a point. Yes. But as I said the last one was a pilot. He passed away last back end. But one of them was killed. The tail end Charlie as we called him, the rear gunner, he was from Banbury down in Oxford. He went to the policeman on East India docks when he first came out and he couldn’t stick that. It was too rough. So he went into Ford Motors at Dagenham. Engine. Motor assembly.
DK: Yeah.
FS: And that was too keen — too, too calm. So, he went back on the land and unfortunately he had a tractor roll over him and kill him. But we didn’t, you didn’t meet him did you? Tubby.
Other: Did meet him. Once or twice.
FS: We went, we went to his grave but you didn’t meet him did you?
Other: Yeah. About twice I met him.
FS: Did you? Oh. But you did meet them all didn’t you?
Other: Yes.
FS: Eventually.
Other: It was all very friendly.
DK: Yeah.
Other: You know, happy about the wartime sort of thing. What they’d had.
DK: So one of your crew was Canadian.
FS: No. We’d no. No. We were all —
DK: Oh sorry I missed something.
FS: All English.
DK: All English.
FS: All English. About, [unclear] in here [laughs] No. We were all English.
DK: All English.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And, and all from, four of you from the same area of Lincoln.
FS: Yes. Yeah. No, we were all English fortunately. As I told you a bit earlier on it was a good job I didn’t go with that Canadian.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FS: One of those things. He was flying. Flying accident.
DK: Can you remember, just for the record, your pilot’s name?
FS: Sorry?
DK: Your pilot’s name.
FS: Yeah. Roocroft.
DK: Roocroft.
FS: Roocroft, Eddie.
Other: [unclear]
DK: Eddie Roocroft.
FS: Excuse me. I don’t know whether you, whether you’ve seen any of these things but these of course you’d get these from Lincoln wouldn’t you? When we had this meeting.
DK: Yeah.
[pause, pages turning]
FS: You can look at any of those. I think I’ve even mislaid my logbook.
DK: That’s a shame.
FS: I don’t know where it is. It might be up in the loft under the foam. I don’t know. That wasn’t part of the course.
DK: There he is. Oh wow.
Other: Is he, have you met anyone before this session? Have you met anyone else?
DK: I have. I’ve interviewed ten veterans so far.
Other: Oh yeah?
DK: So, Frank’s my eleventh.
Other: Oh. Lovely. We used to meet up about once a year and go over the past with them when they were alive.
DK: Yeah. It’s good that you stayed in touch.
Other: Yeah.
DK: It’s nice that you stayed in touch.
FS: Yeah.
Other: We did didn’t we?
DK: So that’s your crew there is it?
FS: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.
DK: And which one are you?
FS: Guess. Try to guess.
DK: Well, I know you’re a sergeant. That one. Go on. Tell me.
FS: Now, you’re nearly. No. You’re not quite on him now. Yeah. You’re on him now.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got you.
FS: You can tell?
DK: I can now.
FS: Yeah.
DK: You’ve hardly, you’ve hardly changed.
[laughs ]
Other: Hardly changed.
DK: So was, was that your Lancaster there then?
FS: Yes. That was ours. Yeah.
DK: Did you fly all the missions on the same one?
FS: Apart from the first.
DK: Right.
FS: The first one was obviously a spare at the time but we had that one all the time.
DK: Ok. Right.
[pause]
FS: Oh, and that by the way is not, that’s, I was on the one that’s described there. I was on that raid.
DK: And you saw the bomb dropped.
FS: Yeah. That’s it.
DK: The Grand Slam bomb.
FS: Yeah. That’s the big one. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: It was, as I said it was a daylight job. Yeah. I’ll pass you another one.
DK: Oh, I see. That’s a part of that isn’t it? So, he was your pilot then?
FS: Yeah. He was mine.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: And he passed away last year.
FS: Last year. August time, would it be [unclear] ? Passed away.
Other: About then wasn’t it?
FS: He was just, much after ninety one anyway [pause] That’s a bit of showman. I never did smoke. I never have done. That was done for a bit of show of course. Although, oh and I don’t know whether you know anything about [pause] whether you’re interested in bomber leaflets that we dropped.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh you’ve got the leaflets yeah. So, that’s you again. Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FS: That’s me again. Yes. Again, yeah. Did you, of course these have been done at Lincoln you see, before. Now then what was that one?
DK: I’ll, I’ll turn the recorder off now. Ok.
FS: Have you done enough?
DK: Yeah. Thanks very much for that.
FS: You’re welcome.
DK: Thank you.
[recording paused]
DK: So if I go up that’s —
FS: Yeah.
DK: That’s you.
FS: That’s myself.
DK: So, wireless operator.
FS: Yeah.
DK: You.
FS: Mid-upper — Leonard Aitken. Navigator — Neil Followes. Pilot —Eddie Roocroft, Flight Engineer — Ted Ruckcliffe. Bomb Aimer — Tony Hargraves and the rear gunner [pause] Tubby. Tubby. Oh crikey.
[pause]
FS: Well dash me.
DK: We’ll call him Tubby.
[pause]
FS: Tubby. Tubby. I can’t. Do you know, I can’t. Tubby. Tubby.
DK: Not to worry.
FS: Oh he’s gone. Tubby. Just give me a minute. Came from Banbury.
[pause]
DK: Tubby. Do you remember?
FS: Tubby’s name.
DK: Tubby’s second name.
FS: Tony. Len. Tubby. Well dash me.
DK: Not to worry. It’ll come back to you.
FS: Yeah. It will.
[recording paused]
DK: Could you just say that again?
FS: Harvey. Derek Harvey.
DK: Tubby Derek Harvey.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Rear gunner.
FS: Rear gunner.
[recording paused]
FS: Twenty years old when we took off and when it turned midnight obviously it was his 21st birthday and that’s when we dropped the bombs.
DK: So your pilot then, Roocroft was twenty years old.
FS: At that time, yes.
DK: And that was a raid to Czechoslovakia.
FS: Yeah. But as I said, when we dropped the bombs he was twenty one. Not many had a twenty first birthday like that was there?
DK: Yeah. So when you took off he was twenty. Dropped the bombs he was twenty one.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Was, was that your longest operation? To Czechoslovakia.
FS: Oh no. No. Sassnitz right around the Baltic coast. Right, all the way around. Nearly ten hours. That was when we see the Northern Lights again. Pretty. Have you seen them?
DK: I haven’t. No.
FS: Their worth it.
DK: I will do one day.
FS: If, if you get the opportunity. I mean we didn’t, we got three bob. That was how much we got for each hour flying but it’s really, really worth a look if you can get. They’re flying from Humberside again sometime this month. But you don’t know whether they are going to be on show or not.
DK: No.
FS: I mean, we were lucky. Right around by Sassnitz on the Baltic coast we saw the Northern Lights. What else? As I said, the last one we went on was Norway. Oil refinery in Norway. At Tønsberg. It was quite interesting because although it was our last one we were going around, we were up about eight thousand feet and the smoke was coming up as high as we were and Eddie said, ‘Were going round again and watch this.’ So we did a semi-circle and watched. And I passed the remark, I said, ‘It’s time we went home for our breakfast Eddie.’
DK: So you actually circled the target again.
FS: We went around twice yeah. Well —
DK: Twice.
FS: Yeah. We did. And still being shot at of course. We never worried. No. That’s why I’ve gone grey I think.
DK: So what about operations to Germany? What targets were, did you go to there?
FS: Bremen, Farge, underground submarine pens just out of Bremen. Dortmund-Ems. I did three Dortmund-Ems Canal. Two nights. One daylight. Oh dear. Heligoland. Heligoland. No. Heligoland was, we didn’t go on that one. And the Dresden I missed which I’d like to have been on because I was on leave. Do you know I can’t remember just now.
DK: Did you, did you know crews that went on the Dresden raid?
FS: To?
DK: Did you know of crews that went to Dresden?
FS: No.
DK: No. What about, what about France? Was there any targets in France?
FS: In France?
DK: In France. Did you go to France?
FS: No. I don’t think so. No. Because you see we were in, go on to February ’45 and the war was on the decline in its way.
DK: Ok.
FS: But it was, no, it was quite interesting. We were still getting shot at. You had never been on one, and of course you never will — but a funny little story I’ll tell you. There was nothing more — oh flying in the dark, coming home, getting fed up, helmet shoved back and at about quarter past six one morning coming over France not too high. And I should, because I sat this side, dropped my curtain down, had a look outside I could see these Frenchman. I couldn’t see straight down because of the wing. I could see these Frenchman with their hands in the air. I thought, God, that’s alright. Waving to us. Thank goodness we was bombing Germany, you see. We gets back for breakfast in our mess camp. We’d had, had a debriefing of course. Had a cup of coffee or tea. Having breakfast and I was standing next to Len, the mid-upper. I said, ‘I see this morning, Len the froggies waving to us. Viva us for bombing Germany.’ He says, ‘What?’ He says, ‘It was milking time,’ he said, ‘The cows were going across the fields with their tails in the air.’ He said, they weren’t viva at us [laughs] I thought it was quite funny really. [pause] Sassnitz, Heligoland. Dortmund-Ems three. Oh Weisel was one. When we’d crossed the Rhine going into Germany towards the end.
DK: Right. Yeah.
FS: We was on that one. That was an interesting one. Not, we weren’t very high on that one. We were just crossing the line there.
DK: So, what were your feelings when you landed? When you got back after a mission. As you touched down how did you feel?
FS: Well, I think really we were pleased we’d done something towards the war. Other than that I can’t remember. But it was quite an interesting do. Weisel. Dortmund-Ems. Heligoland. Tønsberg. Sassnitz. Did I say Sassnitz. I did didn’t I?
DK: Yeah.
FS: Right around the Baltic coast. That was a long trip. Nearly ten hours, and we were tired. Very tired after that. ‘Cause you see being on an active airfield trying to get some sleep was nearly impossible because they was taking off and landing.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Taking off all day.
DK: When you got back was there a debriefing? Did you —
FS: Yeah.
DK: Did you have to speak to anyone?
FS: Yeah. When we got back obviously hand the flying gear in and have a cup of tea. Then it was debriefing of what did we see and all this that and the other. And of course it was breakfast time.
DK: And what was the breakfast?
FS: Oh, it was quite good actually. It was bacon and egg most mornings. It really was. I mean obviously the sergeant’s mess, I mean not like the ordinary squaddies as they called them. But we were supposed to get good stuff. We did alright. Yeah. I was quite pleased with it. It was quite good. And the cups of tea was quite, quite good actually.
DK: Yeah.
FS: Yeah.
DK: Ok. I’ll just —
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Frank Stanney
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-02-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStanneyF160212
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:40:37 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Stanney was working on the land before he volunteered for the RAF. After training he flew operations as a wireless operator with 61 Squadron. One day his pilot took off as a twenty year old and returned as a twenty one year old as it was his birthday during the flight. During one particularly long operation the crew witnessed the Northern Lights.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Sassnitz
Norway--Tønsberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
61 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Skellingthorpe
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/PCullingGC1701.2.jpg
9ccfcf6ea9b4b0f1b819b5c4da9c1272
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/ACullingGC170906.1.mp3
8091b130f97917b8d23b950424ce8148
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Culling, George Charles
G C Culling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Culling (Royal Air Force). He trained as a navigator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Culling, GC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Make sure it’s working. Right. Just introduce myself. It’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing George Culling at his home on the 6th of September 2017. So if I just put that down there. What I’ll do is I’ll keep looking over. I’m only just making sure it working.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Just in case the batteries fail or something.
GC: Yeah.
DK: It has happened once.
GC: Yeah.
DK: The batteries stopped. That looks ok. So, what I want to ask you first of all was what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
GC: Before I joined the RAF I was working in a builder’s merchants actually. I left school. Went straight into a builder’s merchants. At the time there was a lot of bombing. I was in Bromley, Kent. I think Biggin Hill Aerodrome was being bombed and my school hardly functioned in that I only went to school Saturday morning. Picked up work. Did it at home and took it back the next Saturday. After that the school was bombed. So really the school was quite interested in really letting the rest of the pupils go as fast as possible so that school could close. So I went in to a builder’s merchants and was in there. And I joined the ATC. Learned about navigation and meteorology and aircraft recognition and so on and waited until my time came which was at the age of about eighteen and a quarter I suppose.
DK: Do, do you think the fact you were under the German bombing influenced you wanting to join the RAF?
GC: Well, I don’t know. One had to do something and I thought this was the most interesting thing for me to do actually. I was always interested once I’d started. I was always interested in navigation. In the, in the ATC it was navigation that I wanted to find out about and although I had a go at a Tiger Moth I had my, I had a few hours of, as I’ve mentioned in my book had a few hours of practice in a Tiger Moth I really wanted to be a navigator so I was quite pleased when I was selected for that. Yeah.
DK: So as you go in then were you, does it work that you’re immediately do pilot training and then you’re sort of weeded out?
GC: Well, what happened was that at that time they weren’t actually recruiting pilots and navigators separately. They had a category called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: And they would be together for about three months. Probably four months. All learning meteorology, navigation, a certain amount about machine guns. Basic stuff but certainly an emphasis on navigation. And after that those who wanted to could have up to ten hours in a Tiger Moth.
DK: Right.
GC: You weren’t forced to do that. Actually, after that was over there was a rather difficult time because we were losing so many air gunners at that time that the authorities thought some of these PNBs should be changed to air gunners.
DK: Right.
GC: That wasn’t a very popular idea. Not because they were afraid of being air gunners but because the pilots, those who wanted to be pilots were very keen to fly. Those who wanted to be navigators wanted to be navigators. But so we all had to be sort of re-tested in a way. I remember I had to do some, some aptitude tests for navigators comparing Ordnance Survey maps with photographs at speed. At speed. You know, had to [laughs] and then we all queued before, I mention this in my book we all queued before a senior officer who would tell us our fate. So a certain amount of tension at that time until people knew what they were going to do. But as you know rear gunners had very, very heavy losses and that was always a problem really to the RAF. Making up those losses.
DK: Was navigation something that came easy to you?
GC: Well, yes I did. I liked it from the start.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I liked it in any form really. I particularly enjoyed it with the stars actually and that’s unusual.
DK: Astro, astro navigation.
GC: Most, most navigators having had radar which made life very much easier you could fix your position quickly with radar. The radar we had was H2S and Gee. Heaven knows what those letters stand for but they did enable you to fix your positions very quickly whereas with the stars it was a longer, quite long business. You needed three separate stars. You had to stand up in a shuddering aircraft and squeeze the trigger. Once you’d got the —
DK: That’s on the sextant is it?
GC: Once you’d got the star —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Captured in the bubble.
DK: Of the sextant.
GC: Yeah. That —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Of the, of the sextant. And that was only the beginning. I mean when you had those three bits of information you’d taken the time to the nearest second of the shot and you had the name of the star. And, and you had the altitude. So with those three pieces of information you could look up the air navigation tables. Usually called Air Almanacs.
DK: Yeah.
GC: These days. And you’d eventually have a line on your Mercator chart somewhere along which you were flying when you took that shot. We had to do that three times so you had three lines which never did intersect.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That would be too much to expect.
DK: You had a little, you had a little triangle where they almost intersected. You took the centre of that triangle as your fix and I mean it was quite a long business but I enjoyed that because it’s just so interesting. The stars are so interesting and I knew, I knew the heaven’s pretty well. I knew my way around.
DK: Is it something you could still do?
GC: Well, I’ve, I’ve probably forgotten quite a lot but there are things that you don’t forget aren’t there?
DK: Yeah.
GC: I know, I know quite a lot.
DK: Presumably astro navigation was quite difficult if the weather’s bad and it’s cloudy and —
GC: Ah yes but you see if you’re flying above twenty thousand feet you haven’t got any clouds composed of of moisture. You’ve only got, well, of moisture yes but they’re ice crystals. Everything is ice crystals.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud that looks like silky wisps that’s always ice crystals. That’s cirrus.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud you got there is negligible unless you got thunder clouds. Cumulonimbus. If you got thunder clouds it’s a different matter altogether but normally the sky is clear. Pretty clear above twenty thousand and the stars look wonderful and sparkle beautifully. You never see them like that from, with all the pollution on the ground.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But the, so it was an interesting and enjoyable job actually doing. It’s accurate enough. Nowhere near as accurate as radar.
DK: No.
GC: But it’s accurate enough to get you —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On a long journey. On a long journey it’s good enough. Yes.
DK: So, what about the electronic devices then? H2S and Gee. Did you use those as well?
GC: Oh yes. I mean, I used those in Europe all the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: H2S. People are more familiar with that then they realise. They see it on films. You see, you see something going around on a sort of old television screen.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And you realise you’re looking at illuminated rivers, illuminated coast, illuminated cities. A city would show up as a blob of light and the conurbation would be the right shape so you could identify that city. Very useful when you cross the coast. You see this long line of light. So H2S was very useful. It was map reading above cloud. That’s the whole point.
DK: And the radar scanner’s under the aircraft isn’t it?
GC: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So you’re looking at like a kind of a TV screen in effect. Is that right?
GC: Yes. Yes. So you had these two, as I say rather old fashioned television sets —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On one side of the desks. That was H2S. Gee. I have no idea really what Gee stands for and I’ve no idea how, exactly how it worked. But I can’t remember actually how, how we did it but I know we did get very accurate fixes with Gee. Same principles as H2S really. It’s all a matter of radio pulses receiving —
DK: Gee’s from the ground isn’t it? That’s —
GC: Yeah.
DK: A pulse being sent from the aircraft.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So just going back a little bit you mentioned in your book that you did some training on the Isle of Man.
GC: Yes.
DK: So —
GC: That was my own training. Navigation.
DK: That would have been for the bomb aimers and the navigators would it?
GC: No. I don’t, I was only with navigators then.
DK: Oh ok.
GC: It was the just time I had been with only navigators. Because I’d been in the PNB category.
DK: Yeah.
GC: There were I suppose twenty or thirty of us at the top of the Isle of Man. The Point of Ayre where there’s an aerodrome. And we were there for six months flying all over the Irish Sea. And at the end of that period we became navigators or we didn’t but I think most people did. How’s that?
DK: You mentioned in your book getting lost and ending up over [unclear]
GC: Yes. Well, that’s, you were talking about cloud. If you have, if you have ten tenth stratus cloud, this horrible grey blanket that covers the sky you simply can’t map read. And they told us that we were supposed to navigate using compass bearings. Mainly compass bearings. We could use radio. And if you, you know if you can’t see the ground you can’t. You can’t do it. There was nothing else to rely upon except radio and when that gave way there was nothing. I had to depend on the flight plan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Until we had a break in the cloud.
DK: And you found yourself over Dublin.
GC: We did. Yes. We did. We did. We did.
DK: So what was the Irish response to that then?
GC: Well, we were flying above this stratus cloud for some time and then suddenly we noticed a clearance ahead and then we noticed a few puffs. A few puffs of smoke. So we all, I think the pilot and the two of us because we were two navigators working together we all realised at the same time, you know we’d gone wrong. And the pilot immediately did a hundred and eighty degree turn and I thought, ‘Oh, we’re over Dublin. Good. We know where we are. So this is where we are. That’s where we’d be if there was no wind. I can calculate the wind velocity, work out a new course.’
DK: Yeah. So were the Irish trying to shoot you down or just —
GC: No, I don’t think —
DK: Or give you a warning shot?
GC: Nothing like that.
DK: Just go, go away.
GC: Yes. I don’t think we took it all that seriously except that we thought we’d better move. Yes.
DK: So this was in the Avro Ansons was it you were flying?
GC: That was an Anson. Yes.
DK: What did you think of those aircraft?
GC: Well, they were quite useful for navigation because of all the windows. What were they called? Flying glasshouses or something.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They were quite good for that purpose and it was the first aircraft of the RAF which had a retractable undercarriage.
DK: Right.
GC: We had to turn the handle, I think it was a hundred and thirty seven times to get the undercarriage up. But that was the first one. There was nothing else. All other planes had a fixed undercarriage which of course reduced the speed quite a lot and if, if pilots with Ansons were not bothered to do the winding up —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Which is understandable.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: They would reduce the speed by about thirty knots. That was the calculation.
DK: So, and coming in to land did you have to wind it all back down again or did you —
GC: Well, that’s right. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Another a hundred and thirty seven to get the undercarriage down.
GC: Well, when we had two navigators working together you see the other one did all the odd jobs.
DK: Right.
GC: Only one did the real navigation. The other one had to do the winding up [laughs] among other things. Yes.
DK: So at the end of your training in, on the Isle of Man then. You’re a fully fledge navigator then at that point are you?
GC: Yes.
DK: So where did you go then? ‘Cause —
GC: Well, we went across to the mainland and I’ve forgotten which city we were in but I, I do remember how we became a crew because I had no idea how it was going to be done. And we went in to this large hall and it was full of airmen. Young airmen who had just passed out. Pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators, air gunners and so on all wandering around sipping tea and eating biscuits. And the idea was we just had to form crews. And that’s what happened. People just got in to conversation with somebody. Other people came along and joined them. They formed crews, and so when that was, when that came to an end we had a crew. But as I explained in the book we started to form a Kentish crew until somebody thought it would be good to have a really good air gunner so we went for one who had the highest marks in his gunnery school.
DK: Yeah. That’s make sense.
GC: We stopped the idea of having a —
DK: And he wasn’t, he wasn’t from Kent then.
GC: He wasn’t from Kent.
DK: No.
GC: He was a Scot actually [laughs] yes.
DK: Can you still remember the names of the crew?
GC: No. I can’t remember them all actually, but I can remember some of them. I wish I’d had notice of this [laughs] I’ve got their names. Some of their names.
DK: That’s alright. Don’t worry.
GC: On the back of an envelope, but, or —
DK: The pilot’s name. Can you remember the pilot’s name?
GC: I mean, there was Jack. The bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: John, the pilot. Skipper. And Alan was one of the, was the rear gunner. I can’t remember them all. Very bad. Very bad. It would have helped you know if, if we’d met up since then but we didn’t because when the atom bomb dropped and all our planes were suddenly grounded.
DK: Yeah.
GC: This happened very quickly, you know. When the atom bomb dropped everybody was suddenly shaken, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: All the plans of the Air Ministries were suddenly thrown. Thrown overboard. And we were sent on indefinite leave and we never saw each other again.
DK: You never saw the crew again.
GC: We didn’t see each other again and I didn’t like that very much.
DK: No.
GC: As you can imagine. We’d been together in the air for hours, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And we also had a social life together.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we were just sent away. And we were called back one by one and told we had to do something else. And we did because those who were the last in were going to be the last out. And the last out meant 1947. Two years later.
DK: That’s when you left. 1947.
GC: That’s when I left.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I left Japan actually. Yeah.
DK: Just going, just going back a little bit. When you’ve met up with your crew you were training on Wellingtons. Is that —
GC: I didn’t meet up with the crew.
DK: No. No. Just going back a bit.
GC: Yeah.
DK: When you first met your crew you were then doing training on Wellingtons.
GC: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That was the first plane we went on. Yes. There were five of us then.
DK: Right.
GC: On Wellingtons. That’s right. At the [pause] yes, we did that together. I don’t know how long that lasted. And then we went on to, to Lancasters and that’s where we needed two more members of crew. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
DK: Right.
GC: To make our —
DK: What did you think of the Wellingtons as an aircraft?
GC: Well, I mean I know the Wellington was a much well-regarded aircraft in lots of ways. Everybody knows that it could come back from an operation full of holes and still be airborne because of the wonderful geodetic construction. I also know, and I know more now then that I did then that it was very vulnerable to attacks from the side.
DK: Right.
GC: Until guns were fitted at the side. There was a lot of dependence on rear gunning, rear gunners and front gunners really and forgetting about the side.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: And it was very vulnerable. And there were some very, very heavy losses —
DK: Yeah.
GC: To Wellingtons early in the war. As, and they were very heavy losses of all our bombers because they were all in different ways rather deficient. All our bombers were. They were all twin engined as you probably know. Planes like the Blenheim and the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley. They were all deficient in some way and they had fairly heavy losses.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We needed, we needed the Lancasters.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And the other superior planes.
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas.
GC: Sorry?
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas on the —
GC: Well, that’s right. Yes. That’s right. The Wellington construction is of course of Irish linen —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Stretched over a framework which is duralumin and you’re not intended to walk on it. So there’s this, I thought it was I call it a plank of wood. It was only about that wide, and I never did, I never did use it while I was flying thank goodness. And I was walking along it in the middle of the night, in the blackness of the night alone to check the compass which was kept as far away as possible from magnetic influences.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And I slipped and my foot went through. Which was what was quite inevitable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The reinforced board wasn’t there for nothing.
DK: So were you in the air at the time then were you or was this on the ground?
GC: Oh. All on the ground.
DK: I was going to say.
GC: Had we been in the air I would have been rather concerned [laughs] No, this was a check really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: It was a check of the master compass. Make sure it was functioning properly.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Ok. So you didn’t get in trouble for that then did you?
GC: Well, I can’t remember getting in to any trouble for that actually. I can’t remember anything at all. I’m sure I didn’t. It’s just, you know, in no time at all we were up again in another aircraft.
DK: So, from the, your next bit of training then presumably this was to the Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit it was? Or —
GC: Yes. I always forget it. Can I pause here?
DK: Yes. No. That’s ok.
GC: Maureen.
DK: Yes.
GC: What was my Heavy Conversion Unit? Where I flew in Lancasters. I always forget it.
Other: I don’t, I don’t know what you mean, dear. I’m sorry.
DK: It wasn’t, it wasn’t 1661, was it?
Other: A Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Yeah. Which?
Other: Which airfield?
GC: Yeah.
Other: I could have told you last week.
GC: I could have told you probably a minute ago.
Other: It’s something that —
DK: Well, we can come back to that.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
DK: Lincolnshire. Yeah.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
Other: It was in Lincolnshire. You were probably —
GC: Between, yeah I think we were between. Yeah. I think we were between Newark and Lincoln. I think. Yeah. Swinderby.
DK: Swinderby. Oh right. Ok. Swinderby. Yeah. So it was Swinderby Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Ok. So and this would have been on the Lancasters then.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve got two extra crew. The flight engineer’s turned up.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And the mid-upper gunner.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So, what were your impressions of the Lancaster then?
GC: Well, I loved the Lancaster. I could, it was, it was so much roomier for me. I mean in the, in the Wellington I felt rather short of space because you know spreading out a chart and all the equipment one has. Also it seemed the Wellington was a bit dark. There was much more light in a Lancaster. So there was light and space. It was more, more comfortable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: When I look at pictures of one now they don’t look very comfortable but compared with the Wellington at the time it seemed to me very, very nice. No, I enjoyed flying in a, in a Lancaster. In spite of its noise. Those four Rolls Royce engines made quite a noise. Vibration and noise.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned in your book as well about various issues with oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: Lack of oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: I mean, did you have problems with that at all?
GC: Well yes. With oxygen we had a system cut out and we were about twenty two thousand feet and I don’t think we realised for a time. When we did I think the flight engineer tried to put it right. But the best thing really when that happens is to fly down to nine thousand feet or something like that as quickly as possible because the effect of oxygen deficiency is rather like having a drink too many. You feel rather pleased, rather comfortable, rather sleepy. But of course what’s happening is that your nails are going blue, your heart is beating rapidly and your coordination and clear thinking are suffering. All these things are happening to you. So it’s a very dangerous situation really. And it’s only a matter of minutes before you become unconscious and then death follows doesn’t it? But our, our skipper was very alert and took the aircraft down in good time and I think we were all, all looking rather, rather bad and feeling rather bad at the time. And I think our rear gunner was sick. But we soon recovered.
DK: And you mentioned as well a strange story about you floating out of your seat.
GC: Yeah. Yes.
DK: What happened there?
GC: What interested me about that was this. Everybody knows that being in an aircraft it suddenly drops, then you rise unless you’re strapped in. And when I say dropped I mean a real, we’re dropping a long way. And the opposite of course when you feel that you’re being pressed into your seat when the aircraft suddenly rises. But this was rather interesting because I seemed to leave the seat and float upwards quite gently ‘til I was on the, against the roof and everything on my desk went up with me. And it was all, it was all very gentle. That was my very definite impression and we came down the same way to as the plane entered another whatever it is. It suddenly moved vertically and I came down and back to my seat. It was. Yes, that was what struck me. How comfortable it was. How easy it was.
DK: So, so there was no other crew this happened to then. It was just you.
GC: No. You see, I mean the navigator is in a position with lots of things on his desk that are loose anyway.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And he’s loose in a sense. He’s sort of on a seat and he’s getting up and getting down. Other people are I mean it wouldn’t happen to the rear gunner.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: He’s too tightly [laughs]and I think, I think the pilot and the and the flight engineer probably may have automatically sort of held on or something.
DK: Yeah. So you weren’t prepared for this manoeuvre.
GC: I know I was the only one who floated.
DK: So at this point then presumably you’re, you’re being told the war in Europe is coming to an end.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And you’re told that you’re going to go out to the Far East. Is that how it came about?
GC: Yes. It was, it was always clear that we would be part of Tiger Force. I didn’t know much about Tiger Force except that we, we would be stationed on the Island of Okinawa which had been captured. And I had a fairly clear idea where that was. How far from Japan. And at some stage we were going to fly out there which looking back now seems to me would have been a very hazardous business because of the poor maps, inadequate meteorology, weather forecast and lack of emergency airfields and all those sort of things.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we’d have got there I expect. Most of us. To Okinawa. That was the plan which was hatched I believe by Churchill and Roosevelt in Ottawa. The Ottawa, Ottawa Conference.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They kept changing their plans but the idea really was that Lancasters and Lincolns would be mainly. They were a bit worried about the fuel side of things. Just for the distances. And at one stage they were going to have the Lancasters in pairs with one of them with the petrol. Another time they were going to get rid of the mid-upper gunner’s turret and have an extra petrol tank there.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Called a saddle tank. So we were unaware of all these ideas. Changing ideas. We just carried on flying long distances and —
DK: So, these long distances then. Where were you actually going?
GC: Well, we were going all over the place actually. At that time of course as it was now the end of the European War, we could go anywhere in Europe.
DK: Right.
GC: And we did, you know. We might, I don’t know, go towards Czechoslovakia, somewhere like that. A long distance. So the total time was probably ten or eleven hours.
DK: So you were trying to replicate a flight to Okinawa.
GC: Well —
DK: To the Japanese mainland with these things.
GC: Yes. Personally, my job was to navigate as accurately as possible using the stars over a long distance.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And it didn’t really matter where you went.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any other training for Tiger Force? I have spoken to somebody else. They mentioned that they had some jungle survival training. Did you have any of that?
GC: No. No. I don’t think any of us had that. I don’t know what sort of training the other members of crew had. We didn’t actually have time to talk much about —
DK: No.
GC: Those sorts of thing in between. But everyone had some kind of special training but nothing like that.
DK: Right.
GC: Nothing like jungle warfare.
DK: So, you’re, you’re all prepared then to go out to the Far East.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Then you hear the atomic bombs have dropped.
GC: Yes.
DK: And the war’s come to a very sudden end.
GC: Yes.
DK: How did you feel about that?
GC: Well, I think the same as everyone else. A feeling of tremendous feeling of relief that the war was over. At the same time a certain amount of bewilderment wondering what’s going to happen to us. And a great deal of joy when we heard we were going on indefinite leave. We didn’t know what indefinite leave actually meant but it sounded good. But we didn’t know it meant, it meant that our crew would disperse forever. We hadn’t really thought about that very much. And I did feel very unhappy about that at the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Actually. When I realised that we weren’t going to see each other again.
DK: Yeah. So you did another two years in the RAF then. What were you doing up until ’47?
GC: What happened was I was called back and interviewed by an officer. And he gave me a list of tasks. Jobs. And I said, ‘I don’t like any of those.’ So, he said, he said, ‘Well, there is something else,’ he said, ‘There’s Vocational Advice Service.’ I said, ‘Tell me about that.’ He said, ‘Well, everybody in the RAF now especially those who’ve been in the RAF for six years is probably a bit lost about what to do in civilian life.’
DK: Yeah.
GC: ‘So, we’ve got your Vocational Advice Service. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to train some airmen to administer a whole series of psychological tests to get a profile of everybody’s abilities, aptitudes and interests.’ That’s what I did. I did. There were two of us covering the whole Far East from Burma onwards to Japan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And —
DK: So did you eventually get out to the Far East then?
GC: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Oh yes. I finished up in Japan.
DK: Right.
GC: I was in Japan for six months. I was with the Commonwealth Occupation Force.
DK: Oh right.
GC: In Iwakuni. Not far from Hiroshima as a matter of fact.
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: Sorry?
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: I didn’t actually. No. No. I didn’t. I wasn’t. I wasn’t pushing for that and I didn’t really [pause] we didn’t think much about that really. I was just getting on with my job there.
DK: How did the Japanese treat you as an occupation force?
GC: Well, it varied really. Didn’t have a lot to do with Japanese but if you were dealing with them on a sort of business basis they were quite polite of course, and, yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t socialise with them.
DK: No. No. But they did what they were told then.
GC: I think, I think the Japanese people must have been under shock. Complete shock.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In view of all the propaganda that they’d had over the years under, under their very militaristic regime and so on. And when, when the atom bombs dropped and then capitulation soon afterwards I’m sure they were in a state of utter shock that must have lasted a few years.
DK: And did you see much of the other damage out there at all? [unclear]
GC: No. Not really.
DK: No.
GC: The place where I did see a lot of damage of course was in Rangoon. I was in Rangoon for six months.
DK: Right.
GC: In Burma.
DK: Oh right.
GC: And that was in a terrible state. There were piles, huge piles of rubble in the streets. There were rats everywhere. I was in the old Law Courts which was taken over as Air Headquarters South East Asia. It had many many rats in it. So many rats we had a rat squad. Did nothing but try to exterminate the rats. And the rats almost felt in charge. They would walk along the corridors. Not scuttle. They weren’t hurrying. And they were rats of all shapes and sizes. And they would just walked past you like you were queuing up for the cinema or something like that. But it was in a terrible state and now and again the rats spread bubonic plague.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: Not while I was there but they did sometimes.
DK: So looking back at your time in the RAF you obviously spent many months training to be a navigator. Do you sort of regret that you never flew any operations or [unclear] or relieved?
GC: If the operations at the time, if the normal tour had come I would have just accepted it. I wasn’t relieved that I wasn’t going to do that. No. I think when you’re nineteen you have a different attitude to when you’re, many years later. I was quite happy. I mean we were all volunteers.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We volunteered to do this and had it happened I would have just accepted it. As it didn’t happen I wasn’t particularly relieved and I wasn’t particularly disappointed.
DK: No.
GC: Really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I was always thinking what’s happening next.
DK: Yeah. So how do you look back in the RAF now? Looking back over these years. Is it something you’re proud of and did it teach you things or help you out in life basically?
GC: Yeah. I, I look back with, with some pleasure and satisfaction really. It, I found, I think I was very lucky to be a navigator you see because I liked it. I was very busy I may say. I was, I never had any time to do anything except work in an aircraft but I liked it and so that was very interesting to me. If you’ve had that experience at nineteen of navigating a massive bombing, a bomber. And it was good to meet the people I met and be with the crew. Yes I think it was quite important really. In a way it launched me into my, my career which was at that time in teaching.
DK: Right.
GC: I was accepted for teaching when I was in Burma.
DK: Right.
GC: And the fact that I’d been a navigator I think was a point in my favour because I hadn’t got much in the way of qualifications in view of my school experience. The bombing and so on. I had, I had a very slim certificate issued by the forces in economics, mathematics and one or two other subjects which was called, which was supposed to enable us to have matriculation exemption.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: So if you wanted to go to university you could, you could use this.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As a shortcut. But that’s all I had. So I had to do all my studying afterwards but the, in a way my navigation career gave me, gave me a good start for that I think. In a way. And you know in the ATC. Going back to those days when I was a cadet we did a lot of maths and English apart from you know meteorology and all the RAF subjects.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The, in the ATC in those days a massive amount of money was put in by the Air Ministry and we were busy every day doing something. So I had part of my education in the ATC.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In a sense.
DK: So post-war then you went into teaching then.
GC: I did.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned your book as well you had a lot to do with the Aircrew Association.
GC: Well, I didn’t have a lot to do with it. It didn’t form until the 70s as you know.
DK: No.
GC: It formed rather late and I joined it and had some good friends in it. It was a very important organisation because it suddenly brought together people who had very similar experiences and of course it was a very big organisation. It suddenly spread all around the world and there were branches in, in Australia, Canada and so on. Sometimes there were two branches in one city.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As you probably know. But of course people were getting older. I mean people who joined the air training, sorry the Aircrew Association were probably already grandfathers so [laughs] so after a few years membership declined and then got to the point when they had to dissolve the whole organisation.
DK: That’s a shame.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Well, I think we’ve covered everything. I’ll stop it there. But thanks very much for your time. That’s been very —
GC: That’s alright. I hope it’s of some use.
DK: Oh, it’s marvellous. It’s been a lot of use. Ok. Thanks. I’ll turn that off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Charles Culling
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACullingGC170906, PCullingGC1701
Format
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00:36:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Originally working as a builder merchant, George Charles Culling’s town struggled constantly during the war due to the amount of bombing, which eventually forced his school to close. Finding an interest in navigation equipment, George joined the Air Training Corps and learned more about his interests, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at 18, believing it would be the most interesting thing to do at the time. Joining at a period during which the RAF recruited pilot and navigators together, George was sent to a training camp for several months, alongside other pilots, navigators and bomb aimers. However, he recalls a large loss of air gunners during his training and as such, many of his friends and fellow trainees were changed to air gunner training courses. George recounts his experience with navigation equipment and how much he enjoyed it. He names H2S and Gee, claiming that he had no idea what it stood for, nor how it worked exactly, simply stating that it was incredibly accurate. Initially training on the Isle of Man, George outlined his experience with the Anson and gives several pieces of information on the aircraft. He then recalled moving to RAF Swinderby for his Heavy Conversion Unit, explaining his experience with Wellingtons and Lancasters, praising the construction of the Wellington, making observations about its strengths and vulnerabilities. He also recalls the Lancasters being a great deal more comfortable than the Wellingtons. George continued into the Tiger Force unit following victory in Europe, giving information about his understanding of the plans for the Pacific. However, he felt relief when he heard the war was over, alongside confusion at what he would do next and joy at indefinite leave. He was called back in 1947, eventually joining a psychological test service, ending up in Japan. Looking back onto his career, he found a lot of enjoyment as a navigator. He joined the Bomber Command Association in the ’70s, finding a number of friends and joy throughout it.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Japan
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1947
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
Anson
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Swinderby
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1076/11534/APlantG160216.1.mp3
fb988e2a9e31e02ff23df9abb4b51c00
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Plant, George
G Plant
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Plant. He was at Caythorpe in Lincolnshire during the war and witnessed a Lancaster crash.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Plant, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing George Plant, an air crash witness, the 16th of February 2016. I’ll just leave that there.
GP: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working.
GP: Oh right.
DK: So I’m not being rude or anything.
GP: No. No. That’s fine.
DK: Ok. Ok. So, so just going back then. 1940s. What were you doing at that time? Were you at school or had you left school? Or —
GP: Well, I had left school when I was there. I was working on the farm.
DK: Ok.
GP: I lived at Caythorpe Heath. Worked on the farm and —
DK: So you’ve always lived in this area.
GP: More or less. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
DK: And what were you doing on the farms?
GP: Well, at that time working horses mainly. And, you know general labouring.
DK: Ok. So how old would you have been about that time?
GP: I would, at that time I would be seventeen.
DK: Ok. So, how much of the, once the bombing campaign started and all the airfields opened up around Lincolnshire what do you remember about, about that?
GP: Well, I remember seeing, I mean because we weren’t far from Cranwell you know I remember seeing all the planes training there. And also seeing bombers flying over, you know from various places. Scampton and all up there. And also when a lot of the paratroopers were stationed around here as well.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Stoke Rochford and all around here. And you’d see them exercising. Being towed by gliders. That sort of thing you know. And Caythorpe itself was, was full of paratroopers. They were all stationed there at Caythorpe. Which was Caythorpe Court. Which is now the, a farm institute.
DK: Was this the American paratroopers by any chance?
GP: No. We’re talking our own.
DK: British.
GP: Yeah. British paratroopers. There were American paratroopers stationed down at Fulbeck Low Fields. On the aerodrome there as well.
DK: Right.
GP: And I mean they did, in the early part when the Americans came they were allowed up in to the village.
DK: Right.
GP: But I’m afraid there was a bit of —
DK: Incidents.
GP: A bit of, you know, what’s-it going on. Fights broke out between the Americans and our paratroopers. And so they were banned from the village like, you know.
DK: Right. So this actual accident itself. Can you sort of describe what you, what you saw?
GP: Yeah. Well, we used to come down on our bikes from Caythorpe Heath to the village to catch a bus.
DK: Right.
GP: Either to Lincoln or Grantham.
DK: And this would have been 1945.
GP: 1945. February 1945. Yeah. And we came down. We used to park our bikes. The lady who had the village shop used to let us leave our bikes at the rear of the shop. And we’d just, where we was there waiting for the bus and saw this Lancaster bomber sort of high up in the sky. And then it started to dive. Which, I mean they often used to do that and then they would pull out and climb out, you see. But this one didn’t. And the engines were going full bore. And it kept coming in the dive and —
DK: So there was no flame or smoke.
GP: I couldn’t see any flame or smoke. And then it crashed into the rear of the old Caythorpe Railway Station.
DK: Did you see it actually, the crash itself or —
GP: Well, I should say where we were in the village, on the main street, would be a good quarter of a mile.
DK: Right.
GP: From there. Maybe a little bit more. And it, saw it hit the ground and there was a big explosion and by that the bus came around the corner. So, we got on the bus to go to Grantham and that was, that was my, you know bit of experience of the plane crash.
DK: You didn’t go back to see the wreck at all or anything.
GP: No. No. We, no we didn’t. We went on in to Grantham. And you couldn’t get anywhere near the place. Of course during the war you know what it was like.
DK: Yeah.
GP: It was sort of off the road anyway well so, and there was rumours going about that it was a black crew that was on board. But nobody, you know, nobody, you couldn’t get anywhere near the crash.
DK: So, since then, what, what have you found out about that? The crew and —
GP: Well, since, since then I told you I got this message from Australia telling —
DK: That was just in 2014.
GP: That’s right. Telling me that one of the relations of this lady that wrote the letter —
DK: So that’s her, her father’s older brother.
GP: That’s right.
DK: And its Rhod Pope.
GP: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Yeah. That he was on the plane and it was, that’s the —
DK: And all the crew were killed then.
GP: That’s right. That’s the first I knew it was an Australian crew.
DK: Right. So how, how did this lady contact you then? How did she know about your, you being an eye witness to it?
GP: Well, I tell you. The magazine. They was asking for people that —
DK: The local magazine was it?
GP: That’s right. Anybody knew. And I can’t believe really that they never had any more people than I. Mind you I suppose if no one was, if they were all in the house or nobody was in the position that we were in you might not notice. But nobody replied to them. And then, as I say they contacted me and we had this correspondence.
DK: And she hasn’t been over from Australia though? You haven’t actually met her.
GP: Yes. I have met her.
DK: Oh you have met her.
GP: And her husband. Yes.
DK: Oh right.
GP: Yeah. I met them. They, I thought they’d have a job to find me here so I arranged to meet them at Belton Garden Centre. So we went there and had a pot of tea and a piece of cake.
DK: So they’d come over from Australia.
GP: Yeah. That’s right. Last year.
DK: Yeah. And what was, and you took her to the crash site did you?
GP: No. No. No. No.
DK: Oh.
GP: No. She’d obviously been there and according to what she was saying they’d [pause] they’d got some, someone in the 70s, I didn’t know this, had done a bit of a research. An excavation there where it crashed.
DK: Oh right.
GP: And they’d, they’ve got some parts that are, I think in a bit of a museum at East Kirkby is it?
DK: Ok. Ok. East Kirkby. Yes.
GP: Yeah. She said they were going to be on display there. You know.
DK: Yeah.
GP: Nothing, you know, untoward.
DK: Yeah.
GP: But she —
DK: And did she visit East Kirkby do you know?
GP: Yeah. She’d visited East Kirkby, yes. And she knew about this. She’d been in touch with the people at Lincoln.
DK: Right.
GP: I think she’d been in touch I think with your people anyway.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
GP: And said there was going to be memorial put up at Lincoln. And possibly when it was opened I would get an invite. But I’ve not heard from them since. So —
DK: No.
GP: You know. I didn’t.
DK: I was going to ask about that. So you’ve got no idea if a memorial has gone up or anything like that.
GP: No. No. I don’t know.
DK: I might make some enquiries about that and see what —
GP: You know, I mean whether, whether she meant their, their, his name was going on, on the memorial that’s up there I don’t know.
DK: So this is just for the recording. It’s, it’s Lancaster PB 812.
GP: Yeah.
DK: And, but it doesn’t actually say here which squadron it was with. It was with 1 Group.
GP: No.
DK: There were no, no squadrons mentioned on here.
GP: No. But —
DK: Are you likely to be in touch with this lady again? Or —
GP: No. I’ve got, I’m waiting, well I’m waiting for her to contact me. I’ve got no means of contacting her you see over there.
DK: Because I might, I might find out. See if anything further happened at East Kirkby. Whether there was the idea of a memorial or anything.
GP: Yeah.
DK: I can, I can do that.
GP: I mean she did tell me that, when they came over that the relation that died in the plane —
DK: This’ll be the Rhod Pope.
GP: Rhod Pope. That’s right.
DK: Rhod Pope. Yeah.
GP: Was only on it because the, I don’t know whether he was the navigator. I can’t remember now. But the original one that should have been on the plane was, was sick.
DK: Right.
GP: So he filled his spot. He was only twenty one I think.
DK: And he was probably the navigator then.
GP: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: It’s got the names of the crew here actually. It’s —
GP: Yeah.
DK: Flying officer FJ something. Downing or something. RA Miller. R Pope. GM Dockery and AG Robinson.
GP: I mean, according to the coroner’s report I know it says something about something to do with the automatic pilot.
DK: Yeah.
GP: That might have caused the crash you see. And then it goes on to say someone else reported later on that they’d had the same problem.
DK: Yeah. It says, it says here, this is from Warrant officer, oh no sorry, Flying Officer Lucas. I think it was Lucas. “I was the usual captain and pilot of Lancaster PB 812. After operations on January the 2nd 1945 I complained that the automatic pilot fitted to this aircraft caused the aircraft to go into a sudden dive.”
GP: Yeah.
DK: “This was attended to and since then there has been no further signs of this trouble. I’ve completed four operations in this aircraft since that day and all the auxiliary equipment including nitrogen has proved entirely satisfactory.” So there was some problem at some point wasn’t there?
GP: Yeah.
DK: Apparently they, they were on a training flight but they were due to go on a bombing raid the next day.
GP: Yeah. Ok. I think we’ve probably got the, the story there.
DK: I’m sorry. You know. I can’t, like I told —
GP: That’s good. I’ll just —
[recording paused]
DK: But if we just go back to what you were saying there. It came down on the station. The Lancaster —
GP: Yeah.
DK: And it, it went into the goods yard.
GP: Yeah.
DK: Behind the station.
GP: On the end of the goods yard. Yeah.
DK: And as far as you were aware nobody was hurt.
GP: No.
DK: But there was a Wellington that —
GP: Yeah. But not at the same time.
DK: No. No.
GP: But I do recall that one. I mean that was one night so I didn’t witness that but I mean it did come down on the other side.
DK: And the wheel came off.
GP: That’s right. The wheel came off and went over the house and killed the cow that was in the crew yard.
DK: But you weren’t a witness to that one.
GP: No. No. No. No, I think it was the middle of the night. I think it was, I think that was coming back from a bombing raid. I’m not sure on that. But —
DK: Yeah.
GP: And I think that would have been, sort of in 1944.
DK: Right.
GP: You know.
DK: I mean there was obviously a lot of crashes and accidents in this area. So —
GP: Oh yes. I mean a lot of training planes from Cranwell.
DK: Yeah.
GP: You know. Used to come down. Nothing serious but they would, they’d crash land and they, most of, most of the big farms had what they called crash gates.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GP: So the services would get in pretty quick like, you know. But —
DK: So, what happened after the war then? Did you just go back to working on the, on the farms and —
GP: Yeah. Well, I’ve been about a bit. After the war I worked on the farm for a long, long time, till about the 1950s. And then I went into, I went and lived the other, I got married and lived the other side of Lincoln at Harby.
DK: Right.
GP: And on a, I worked on a nursery there growing flowers and bulbs. And then, then I came this way again into Grantham. Worked on the railway just before the steamers packed up. And then when the steamers packed up I joined the Fire Service.
DK: Oh right.
GP: Down here. Did twenty seven years in the fire service.
DK: Oh right. Yeah. Interesting.
GP: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Let’s stop there. That’s —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Plant
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APlantG160216
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:05 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
George Plant was a farm worker. He was waiting for a bus one day in February in 1945 when he witnessed Lancaster PB 812 crash behind Caythorpe Railway Station with the loss of all lives. Years later the relative of one of the casualties put an advertisement in the local magazine asking for any witnesses to the crash that had killed her uncle. George answered the advertisement and was able to meet this lady when she visited from Australia. The coroner’s report of the crash included the report by a former pilot of the aircraft that the auto pilot may have malfunctioned causing the aircraft to go into a steep dive.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-10
460 Squadron
crash
Lancaster
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/PMercerH1701.1.jpg
ca1e16ce2e7f535857111b45957c7c12
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/AMercerH170519.2.mp3
550b969b4cd74761e6a94a8e44b23fde
Dublin Core
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Title
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Mercer, Harold
H Mercer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Harold Mercer (1922 - 2020). He served as a driver before remustering as an air gunner. He flew operations as an air gunner with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mercer, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harold Mercer at his home on the 19th of May 2017. Get going. Alright, I’ll just make sure that’s working. So, just start, if I could just ask you, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HM: I was working for North Shields corporated society as a milk man, driving horse and cart round the streets, delivering milk
DK: So, what years would that be?
HM: That was 1942
DK: 1942. So, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was that your decision or?
HM: Well, it was, yes, it was my decision, I had volunteered at the beginning of the year 1942, and I have gone up to Edinburgh for an interview, I wanted to be in aircrew then but over to you I wasn’t contemplated for at the time and they sent me on the reserve list so I was called up in April 1942
DK: 1942, yeah
HM: On call up, I suppose you want me to continue,
DK: Yes, please, yeah
HM: On call up, I was posted to Weston-super-Mare for what was generally called square-bashing, so I did two months in Weston-super-Mare, while I was there, I did the usual things, marching up and down the promenade, learning how to the march, how to do the drills and everything
DK: How did you feel about all that, was that something you liked or?
HM: To be quite honest, I quite enjoyed it for one reason, I had a little corporal [unclear] who was determined to be a Sir, so I had to call him sir anyway, but being sort of raw recruits and not used to Air Force or Army life or anything really like that, we just generally called him Sir, behind his back I think he was called other things, but that was the Air Force lads, but we got on very well together, there was, the squadron was about thirty, I would imagine? I’ve got a photograph there actually, about thirty of us in a squad and while I was there, I did the usual square-bashing and the odd sentry duty and only one wood march I ever did anyway, the reason for that was I was a musician and I played the euphonium in a brass band, so once the corporal got to know that, he said, oh, I got a job for you, I went to see the sergeant in charge of the band at the time and he said, welcome, he says, it’s just what we need, so I joined the band. Doing that meant that we didn’t do so many parades or anything other than practice in the Weston-super-Mare pavilion there, so we did a lot of practice and of course the drill sergeant said, you know, he was quite upset because we were missing a lot of parades but on the other hand, we had to give concerts every night in the pavilion, so we did a lot of rehearsals during the day so we couldn’t be drilling and rehearsing as musicians, the musicians apparently had the first choice of our time, so I spent two months [unclear] at Weston-super-Mare and we were billeting in private houses in those days, about three to, three to a room, you know, use your little beds that you have, but I quite enjoyed the time there and then when it came to leaving super-Mare, I was destined to be a [unclear], transport driver, so I eventually arrived up, lasted up in the Blackpool School of Motoring, learning all about the cars and lorries, buses, the whole works and
DK: Had you actually driven before then
HM. Yes, I
DK: Or did they teach you to drive?
HM: I happened, actually I happened to be a driver because my brother had a car
DK: Right
HM: And he taught me to drive and I’ve driven ever since I was seventeen. But anyway, I still had to go through the usual school, learning about the combustion engines, and touring around Blackpool area, learning how to drive these cars, busses, lorries, whatever the corporal wanted that day
DK: So you were taught not only how to drive these vehicles, also how to maintain them, and the engines, and
HM: Yeah, we had to be, I rather was, were mechanics, we had to learn all about the combustion engine and be able to trace faults on the car, on the motor, on the whatever, the transport was the intention, so we had to learn all about that, I think that, I’m not sure if [unclear] but, yes, we had to learn both sides, both driving and positive the engine world, you know, so, I say I was there about two months, as actually there was the British School of Motoring that we were under and I had a lady instructor and she says, oh, you are fine enough, no problem with you, but when it came to passing the test, I couldn’t pass the test first time, you know, and I said to this lady, I’ll never pass the test because I’m far too nervous when it comes to anybody sitting beside me, but I know I can drive perfectly and I won’t hurt anybody, so anyway, after the second test, this lady instructor told the examiner exactly what I was done, he says, this airman is perfectly capable of driving anything you care to put on any he’ll drive properly, so the examiner took notice of this, so I passed.
DK: Right
HM: And that was the end of my time in Blackpool, we had off duty time so we passed most of our time at the YM I think, at the YMCA, playing billiards or whatever, snooker, well, you know anything that was coming up. One thing I do remember, going back to Weston-super-Mare, is every Sunday the Air Force had to attend morning service at the church and of course the job of the band was to lead them to the church so they led us to the church, we led them to the church, but the church wouldn’t let us in with our instruments so the corporal says, come back in an hour’s time, I want you here back in an hour’s time, so what we did, popped down the end of the road, went in a café, had a cup of tea so we missed the church service, so that was, I suppose, that’s one of the advantages of being in the brass, being a musician and then we just marched them back to the quarters again and dismissed for the day, had a day off, you know, that was just a little thing [unclear]
DK: Have you been in the band then?
HM: It was, yeah, if you were a musician, it was pretty good because you, various times you were called away to do a concert for somebody and we did, we did concerts, I would say every night, somewhere in the area, so,
DK: Was it something that you stuck to afterwards? Is it something that you’ve done all your life? Continued to play?
HM: Oh yes, I’d been a musician from eight years old I was taught, all my family are salvationers and I was naturally, we were all brought up to be salvationists of as I moved up in airs I was transferred from a junior band to the senior band and then from there I went to the Air Force, so I had a good solid grounding for playing in the band
DK: So just going back to when you passed your test for the motor transport
HM: Yeah
DK: What could you drive after passing that test? Was it the big trucks or?
HM: Yes, thirty hundred weight trucks
DK: You could drive thirty hundred weight trucks
HM: Yeah
DK: And coaches or anything like that?
HM: Yes, we had coaches as well, you had to be able to drive practically anything really, [unclear], yes, you had to be able to drive any vehicle that was to hand and what job was wanted to be done, so it was very interesting and [unclear] if I would say those two months I had
DK: So after those two months, were you posted to a squadron then or to an airfield?
HM: No, from there I went to Bridgnorth for general training, that was like building all of the Air Force discipline and duties and ranks and you know, the whole works of the Air Force you had to go through the, through a whole book as well as doing various drills, nothing like Weston-super-Mare, just ordinary drills, learning how to behave in public, behave at a table, sort of, was like officer training, you had to be able to do, holding a knife and fork and all the various equipment, depending what meal you were at, so it started from breakfast right away through to being at a dinner, black tie and everything sort of thing
DK: And how did you find all of that, was it interesting or?
HM: Well, it was very, I think, I mean, I wasn’t used to that sort of life, for the low station time was hard before that so I was used to very hard life, bringing up my mother had to go to work at four o’clock in the morning, to make enough money to feed us, perhaps people these days don’t understand what the Twenties and Thirties were like, you see, I’m going back a long way and then of course I was brought up by very disciplined parents, very loving but you did nothing on a Sunday except having your food, you couldn’t read anything, you couldn’t buy anything, you know, days were hard in those, today people haven’t got any idea what those days were like, the Thirties especially were, men were short of money, in fact it was the war that made a big change, a very big change in life, in my life anyway, I got sort of out into the world, I’d never been away from home, till I joined the Air Force, you know, I travelled up to Edinburgh, well, Edinburgh as far as I was concerned was Australia, could’ve been, because of us [unclear] altogether, I was born up in North Shields and I lived there, never went out at all, you know people cannot believe, these days they accept travelling all over the world,
DK: It’s normal, isn’t it, all just popping up all over Europe
HM: Oh, I’m gonna have a holiday, oh, where are we going this year? Oh, we’re going to Spain, we’re going all over, well, at my time you were lucky if you got as far as your own town really, that was as far as you got, anyway, back to Blackpool, and had a load of work [unclear] there, we’re billeted again in private houses, about, usually about three in a room depending from the size of the building and off duty we were going to [unclear] and just to, you know, spare time and of course we went to the Tower Ballroom I’ll come to that part later on but we went to the Tower Ballroom but we couldn’t dance just for the music and get together with the boys, get a little bit chatty, I thoroughly enjoyed learning all about motors and that came in handy in life later on as I advanced over the Air Force actually so from actually I think it was about two months approximately I haven’t got the exact date, well, I have the exact date somewhere, but I would say about two months and then we were posted again now I went to Bridgnorth which I was telling I was saying learning all about the Air Force discipline and ranks and how to behave in public and how to dine out and all this sort of thing as well as, pigeon, clay pigeon shooting,
DK: Oh right.
HM: We did a bit of clay pigeon shooting at Bridgnorth so there again, I think was, I think we were there three months, were quite a long time training at Bridgnorth, from Bridgnorth I was posted to Kidbrooke in London and a balloon barrage squadron where I was
DK: Whereabouts in London, sorry? Kilbourn?
HM: It was Kidbrooke
DK: Kidbrooke, right, Kidbrooke.
HM: Kidbrooke, 901 Squadron
DK: Right
HM: It was Kidbrooke, I was posted there as qualified motor driver and from Kidbrooke, Kidbrooke was the headquarters of the London Balloon Command
DK: Right, ok.
HM: And I was posted to Plumstead, which was a satellite of that squadron and from that site we supplied
DK: So the balloons, this is the barrage balloons,
HM: The big barrage balloons
DK: Yeah, right.
HM: The barrage balloons, with oxygen, you know, hydrogen, and from Plumstead we supplied the balloon sites with food every day and with any equipment we were transported over to they were only on WAAF sites, mostly WAAF sites, around my area anyway, I think I had three sites to go to every day, keep them topped up and most of the sites were WAAF, under the WAAF command, so I was there quite a long time then, while I was there off-duty times, I was stationed at the headquarters at Plumstead, when we were off-duty we used to pop out to Eltham Palace dancing, we couldn’t dance, I couldn’t dance, that’s for sure, we weren’t allowed to do things like that, anyway, funnily enough, we happened to have a corporal instructor, he said, I can dance in Civvy Street, I’ve danced in Civvy Street, I teach dancing, so we said, well, come on, you’ll have to show us what to do, you know, to go to the girls, when were nights off, so he taught us all about dancing,
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HM: You can imagine, twenty airmen in a barrack room learning how to dance, was a bit of a laugh, but we learned the basics anyway, and then when we went out with the WAAFs, we’d get the tram out to Eltham and go to Eltham Palace to dance and when we were dancing, well, you could call it dancing [laughs], because the WAAFs, you know, and the locals would pick the WAAFs up, and I didn’t, I couldn’t get away with dancing, but never mind, the WAAFs used to come up, he said, Harry, if I don’t like the man I am dancing with, we just buzz him off, cause in those days we had what we called the excuse me dances, the chap and told him he had to move on, so that was my job when I went to the dances with the girls, they was coming on and you know, the girls winked as they went past so I would just get up and tap them on the shoulder away would go and so I had a good job dancing with the WAAFs, I went round once stopped and sat and it would happen again, you know, but it was like entertainment as far as we were concerned, and it got you again from the hard fact that there was the war [unclear] all the time I mean, many a time would have an air raid but would have shut down and such, you know [unclear] we could get but we got plenty of time off there, the only thing that they didn’t have was any place where we could get a shower or a bath or whatever you needed, so we had tickets to go into Woolwich and took the baths in Woolwich, we’d go and have a bath there and we’re taken in and then from there we would go to the pictures and put the night in, so that’s how we did a lot of entertainment down in London apart from the air raid traffic [unclear]. Mind you, the air raids, the weather on London and [unclear] was very foggy, smog
DK: Smog
HM: Absolutely thick, you could hardly see your hand in front of you, and in fact one day I was driving a just this light weight van and I got lost, I couldn’t see where I was going, I ended up on a greens somewhere and had to go in the van, just walk where I though the edge might be, I found the edge and then sort of well [unclear] somewhere I know but I no idea
DK: But the headlights were covered up as well, weren’t they?
HM: The headlights were, yeah, the headlights, you might as well not have them on, because they were shaded with little slots in the front and the light they gave off was minimal, no good enough, and you had, it was all in your head, you knew the route, so
DK: I imagine there must have been a few accidents
HM: Oh, there was a few accidents, but you couldn’t avoid it because you couldn’t see where you were going, cause so thick, mind you, we never moved any heavy equipment through the night
DK: Right
HM: Such as the hydrogen bottles, you know, they had, what you called, Scammells, American things, huge motors, but the length of the [unclear] really, and you had all your bottles on the back and then a trailer behind that, so, you know, you got a good length
DK: Did you drive any of those, the Scammells?
HM: I drove the Scammells, excuse me
DK: I’ll just pause that.
HM: So
DK: So, you actually drove the Scammells, then, did you?
HM: I drove, yeah, I drove the Scammells and with the trailer to the WAAF site
DK: And what would be your loads then, what normally were your loads then that you were carrying?
HM: Well, that I remember, that’d probably be about, about fifteen to twenty hydrogen bottles on the Scammell itself, with the same number on the trailer, and you took those to the site, drop them off as you are going round, I can’t exactly remember how many we dropped off at the time, anyway we would obviously drop them off for the [unclear] and pick up others to take back
DK: The empty ones you’d take back
HM: The empty ones we’d take back and then they would be collected by the foreman who provided them in the first place
DK: And refilled
HM: Refilled and then we would do that every day, really, that was something that we did every day and besides the odd little jobs around the site and we had one motorcyclist at place, like a sort of dispatch, dispatch right I would say, and of course there was
DK: So, did he escort you sometimes then?
HM: Yes, he would try and sort of lead the way but you know, you had to use a lot of your own instinct as well, you know, to keep on top of things, we had one or two WAAF drivers, not so many, had one or two of them, it was mostly men at that time,
DK: And were the women driving the big trucks as well?
HM: They never drove the big trucks, no, that was left to the men, the big trucks and busses, that was for the men there, so anyway I finished my time in Bridgnorth, at Plumstead, I went to Bridgnorth, I told you about Bridgnorth, and from Bridgnorth I was posted to Blackpool
DK: Right, yeah.
HM: I went to Blackpool, and I was only there about a fortnight and I was moved up to Northern Ireland, from there I went to Northern Ireland, to Eglinton
DK: Eglinton
HM: In Northern Ireland, well, actually the headquarters, I was at the headquarters first, actually to be honest, I worked from headquarters all the time, which was 5019 Squadron
DK: 5019
HM: 5019
DK: Alright
HM: Funnily enough, I can’t find it in the books anywhere, but I’ve got a photograph with the, of the group, you know
DK: Oh, right, ok.
HM: With the, with the whole squadron
DK: Right
HM: And we were the ones with peaky cups. You know, everybody else had foddered caps, we had a proper peaky cap. Fortunately when I was at Belfast, I got the one job that was going as driver to the officer in charge of the engineering and electrical works all over Ireland, so my job was to drive him to whatever airfield or maintenance area that needed his attention
DK: And what sort of vehicle were you driving him in then?
HM: A Hillman car
DK: Right
HM: One was one in a Hillman car to wherever was necessary, if so, to be honest I’ve been all over Northern Ireland,
DK: So, was he an officer then?
HM: Flight lieutenant
DK: Flight lieutenant, right
HM: Yes, he was Flight Lieutenant and he was in charge of electrical and mechanical vehicles and sites all over Northern Ireland
DK: Right
HM: So I have been nearly in every town in Northern Ireland you can think of, I spent some time in Ballykelly, the thing was, when I was with him, going around all these places, we’d call it aerodrome and he would say, I’m gonna be here three days, driver, just please yourself of what you do, I’m here and if anybody stops you, just refer them to me,
DK: Right
HM: So, every time I went anywhere, I was just on me own, wandering about, going for a coffee or whatever, for a cup of tea, you know
DK: So you got to know Northern Ireland quite well, then
HM: I got to know Northern Ireland upside down, yeah, went to Belfast, way along the top, Ballykelly was a big aerodrome and further along was Coleraine River Valley and Eglinton, which was also a naval station, they didn’t have any planes of course, it was just the station, but he had to look after the maintenance of the works on every station, you see, so, Eglinton came under his edict [unclear] as well, and I went into Londonderry quite a bit when I was off duty, and we used to go to a Roman Catholic tearoom which they had, you know, for Air Force, well, for forces members, so I often went there and had a cup of tea and a wad as they called it and the made us very welcome, at night [unclear] went to the cinema which was only a tin hut, so you can imagine what it was like when I rained, you couldn’t hear anything on because of the thundering and the rain but it was light entertainment I quite enjoyed it because I was more or less free-lance for nine months in Northern Ireland, the one thing that comes to mind, one night the chef put something on whatever it was, I think it was, I don’t know if it was [unclear] or whatever it was, anyway it was quite hot, and through the night, oh, everybody was ill, everybody on the camp was ill, you just had to go outside, you know, there was nothing else to do for it, you know, everybody was in the same boat, so, but it was a really desperate situation, I can tell you, caused many a laughing once we got over the problem, you know, the whole site, the whole camp, upside down, you know, with people dashing outside,
DK: Did the chef get into trouble over that?
HM: [laughs] I would imagine he did, I’ve never heard the end of the story of that but I imagine he would get a severe tipping off from the officer in charge [laughs], of the camp, you know, but it was just one of those things that all, it’s all in life, isn’t it? You know, so, that was it, Northern Ireland, anyway while I was at Northern Ireland after about nine months, a memo came round to anyone resting becoming an air gunner, you know, so I thought, oh damn, I’d done nine months here, I said, we’d be doing nothing really, you know, I always part of the war, and haven’t had me done, somebody had to do it, so anyway, I volunteered and I was accepted for aircrew
DK: Can you remember which year this would have been or
HM: That would have been 194
DK: 3?
HM: No, no, it was much later than that, was it ’43? That would be ’43, end of ‘43
DK: So, end of ’43, ‘44
HM: Yeah, [unclear] the end of ’43 or begin of ’44, was round that period, yes, we’re in 1944
DK: Right
HM: 1944, I definitely went and as you went on to London in those days and in Lord’s Cricket Ground was the
DK: The aircrew
HM: The aircrew selection so I went to the selection there, passed that, no [unclear] I was accepted to become an air gunner, of course you had a severe medical to become an aircrew, you had to be perfect, you know, eyesight, hearing, you know, there was no, if you had the slightest thing wrong with you, you didn’t pass, so anyway I passed all the tests, then we got about seven jabs for various things in case we were sent abroad, all at once you know [unclear] and the lads were going bang! Bang! [mimics a banging noise] so the tallest fellows it seemed to affect them more than us little fellows, you know, and they, they were going down, flat all with all these jabs, I mean, obviously they came round after a few minutes but they knocked them all out [unclear] so they took them a day so for everybody to get settled in so when I went there we just did the usual sports activities and training you know, what you call it? Physics, physical fitness
DK: Yep, yeah, [unclear]
HM: We did a lot of that, so we were perfectly fit when we left there, funnily enough I was just, I was there three months and I can’t remember, I can’t imagine where, how I was there three months, took my time I suppose
DK: And this was at Lord’s
HM: And this was at Lord’s Cricket Ground
DK: Yeah
HM: At the Long Room, so I can always say I’ve been at Lord’s Cricket Ground and the Long Room as well. Of course, I know it’s this sort of side effect, but you met a lot of ladies or young girls and you had a good time with them, I mean, I reckon all the airmen would tell you that,
DK: Yeah
HM: We’ve all had flings with somebody, you know, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know if this is [unclear], I had a, I met a lovely young lady, and she wanted me, I found out that she was a Jewess, you know, well, I did, that part didn’t bother me at all, you know, I said, I’m only here for a couple of months I said whatever, we’ll have a nice time, take her to the pictures, dances, and what that, which I did and [unclear], me mom and dad would like to see ye, oh no, no, I’m not, no, I’m not, so I said, yeah, well, it’s very kind of them but I’d rather think I’m not ready for that yet, so that passed, that was a little bit of history, some of my family don’t know that, but she was a lovely girl and we got on well together, you know, was just
DK: Well, it wasn’t the time to get serious then, was it?
HM: It wasn’t the time to get serious anyway with anybody, I mean, you could’ve been here one day and [unclear] the next, but it’s not fair to anybody [unclear], anyway that’s fine so I passed all the examinations and then I went to training school, to train as air gunner, but this, sorry, I’ve got mixed up, I put Bridgnorth before, it should be after
DK: Right, ok
HM: Right?
DK: Right, ok
HM: [unclear] by Bridgnorth, kind of when we learned about air gunnery
DK: Right, that was at Bridgnorth
HM: That was at Bridgnorth
Dk: Right, ok
HM: We learned all about Bridgnorth, we didn’t do route marches there, was all air gunnery training
DK: So, what, at Bridgnorth then, what sort of training as a gunner did you do then, was it all on the ground or?
HM: Yes, just to refresh me memory, I went to Pembury for air gunnery training,
DK: Right
HM: First
DK: Right
HM: I’m trying to get where this is in, I should have me book out, then I go to Bridgnorth first, or did I go to Pembrey first?
DK: That doesn’t matter, I mean, you obviously went to both, so,
HM: I went, yes, I went to Pembrey, yes, I think that, I think Pembrey was the first thing
DK: Right
HM: Before that
DK: So, it’s Pembrey then Bridgnorth
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: Eh.
DK: So what was
HM: This, when he came flying Bridgnorth, Pembrey could’ve been after Bridgnorth, that’s right, ah, that’s right, I learned all about air gunnery, on the ground
DK: On the ground, so what did the training involve then? Did you have to get to know the wetland and [unclear]
HM: You had to learn all about the Browning 303 guns and you didn’t have to bother about rifles but we did do rifling on a course, firing at targets, you know, our legs spread out and
DK: Lying down
HM: Lying down, yeah, everybody lying down and instructors behind you telling you what to do, so, that was part of the training, firing rifles, we also did clay pigeon
DK: Right
HM: Clay pigeon shooting as well
DK: Is it something you took to? Were you quite?
HM: Yeah, quite happy with, I quite enjoyed clay pigeon shooting but because I mostly hit them, I must have been ok for that, yeah, I quite enjoyed that training
DK: So, was it deflection shooting then?
HM: Yes, deflection, oh no, deflection came at Pembrey
DK: Ah, right, ok.
HM: So, Bridgnorth comes before Pembrey
DK: Yeah
HM: We went to Pembrey, that’s the thing
DK: And that’s where you learned pigeon shooting
HM: That’s where I learned all the, that’s where we were up in Ansons and that’s where we did our air gunnery training, and hit a towing target, you know, a plane would drag a tow and we would have to fire at the tow, which had sunny camera as well, as well as live shooting we did
DK: So you had a trip in the Avro Anson then, would that’d been the first time you’ve flown?
DK: That was the first I’d ever been in the air
HM: Yes, this is the Anson one, this is, that’s, oh no, that’s Lossiemouth, that’s further on now, anyway, I did the, I did Pembrey training on Ansons, and that’s the first time I’ve been flying,
DK: So, was the turret in the Anson
HM: No, I can’t remember, there must have been a turret,
DK: Right
HM: There must have been a turret because we had been to fly, we had to fire at the drove
DK: Right
HM: And according to that, I had four percent so, that’s supposed to be good,
DK: Four percent?
HM: Supposed to be good,
DK: Right
HM: Out of a hundred rounds, yes, [unclear]
DK: A hundred rounds, four hit and that was quite good
HM: Yeah, pretty good, must have been, I passed. So, I did me Anson training down there and air gunnery and learning all about deflection
DK: Yeah
HM: Find the speed of your aircraft, find the speed of their aircraft, you find the width, the length and the distance between and fire a head of it, so many yards ahead so that the bullet was collided at the same time with the aircraft, hopefully, anyway I must admit when I hit, well, I did hit it a few times, so that’s gone down there so, so I passed out as an air gunner down in Anson, down in Pembrey on Ansons. From there I went to Lossiemouth
DK: Right, so [unclear] the logbook
HM: That’s where the logbook comes in
DK: Can I have a look?
HM: Yeah, have a look at there first.
DK: So, it’s, I’ve got here, just for this, it’s number 1 AGS, is that
HM: Yeah, 1 AGS
DK: It’s that Air Gunnery School?
HM: That’s Air Gunnery School
DK: And that’s at Pembrey
HM: Yeah, at Pembrey at that time
DK: So, that’s on the Avro Ansons
HM: Yeah. That’s on the Ansons.
DK: That tells you here how many rounds you fired. Say, three hundred rounds?
HM: Yeah
DK: So, three hundred rounds score, for example thirty-one?
HM: Thirty-one, yeah
DK: Three hundred rounds splashed, so you were [unclear] into the sea
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: We had tiny cameras as well
DK: The steady cameras, yeah. Oh I see, it actually says sindy cameras, isn’t it?
HM: It says sindy camera, yeah
DK: So, total flying then was twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes
HM: Of training
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: Training at Pembrey, so,
HM: At Pembrey
DK: So, the flights itself weren’t very long, were they?
HM: Oh no
DK: About thirty minutes, thirty, forty minutes
HM: Yeah. No, the flights themselves weren’t very long, you were up
DK: Can you remember how many of you were in the Anson?
HM: There’d be about five of us, ex air gunners
DK: And you’d all take it in turns
HM: We’d all take it in turns
DK: To shoot
HM: Yeah
DK: So, then it tells you how many rounds you fired
HM: It tells how many rounds you fired there and if you were
DK: How many hits?
HM: There is one thing about all this training. If you failed on one subject, you were out
DK: You were out, yeah
HM: You didn’t get a second chance you know
DK: So, it says here beam
HM: Beams
DK: Beam, 7.83 percent. And then Beam RS
HM: Don’t remember what RS stands for
DK: That’s 5.66 percent hits. And then quarter
HM: Oh, that’s, ah, that’s if you draw [unclear], yeah, beam is stale across
DK: Beam across, yeah and quarter is 3.24 percent
HM: Yeah, it would be probably diving, and you’d have to follow it down
DK: So the quarter then, total was four thousand eight hundred rounds so you [unclear] corner
HM: In total
DK: In total, in total
HM: Oh yes, you done a lot of firing altogether but
DK: And they were all with the Browning 303s
HM: All with 303s
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: So, after Pembrey then, you’ve gone to Lossiemouth
HM: I went to Lossiemouth
DK: And that’s with 20 OTU, 20 Operational Training Unit
HM: Yeah, Operational Training Unit
DK: So, I’m just reading your logbook here, it’s just for the benefit of the recording,
HM: Yeah
DK: So, you went to Lossiemouth in September 1944
HM: Yeah
DK: And you were training on Wellingtons
HM: Wellingtons, yeah, lovely aircraft
DK: So, what do you, you liked the Wellingtons
HM: Lovely aircraft
DK: Yeah
HM: Yes, I liked the Wellington, was a really good, it seemed to be, what shall we say
DK: Stable?
HM: Very stable and, you know, it seemed you could do anything with it, and it would answer the call, whatever you wanted to do with it. You know, if you would tell the skipper to corkscrew, you know,
DK: Yeah. So, they were very agile
HM: Yeah, very agile aircraft, very manoeuvrable
DK: Very manoeuvrable.
HM: Manoeuvrable
DK: So, when you were training on the Wellingtons then, did you go? You were training in the turrets,
HM: Oh yes, we in the turrets, yeah
DK: So, you were in the rear turret
HM: Rear turret
DK: The front turret? Or the rear turret?
HM: I was never in the mid upper gunner
DK: Right
HM: I was always in the rear turret and I followed, you’re sort of on your own at the back, yeah, everybody else is in the front, and you are the full length of the aircraft at the other end, you felt on your own but you didn’t feel lonely, shall I say, you felt on your own but not lonely
DK: So, by the time you got to 20 OTU, have you met up with your crew now then or kind of [unclear]?
HM: That’s where you meet your crew
DK: Right
HM: All except the engineer
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah
DK: And how did your crew come together then?
HM: Well, you’re all sort of, shall I say, in a big room, and air gunners, you know, you’re only a little groups of navigators, air gunners and what, and then you sort of just wander about and you find this, well, you usually find the skipper and then sort of go round with him, having a chat with everybody and then see who liked to join us and you know, was, it wasn’t sort of you go there and you go there, you know, you had one and talked to everybody
DK: Did you think that was a good idea that you kind of found your own crews, you weren’t ordered to?
HM: Well, I think so because you thought, well, I could get on with that chap, and you know, if he’s willing to join us, well, what do you say? Well, they told their friend, so what do you think?
DK: Cause it’s quite
HM: [unclear] quite like him
DK: It’s quite unusual, isn’t it, because normally in the military, in the RAF, you’re told where to go and do this, do this
HM: [unclear]
DK: But the crewing up was very much
HM: Very much a disorganised organised
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, organised disorder, so they say
DK: And can you remember the name of the pilot that you ended up with?
HM: Oh yes, W. B. Holmes
DK: W. B. Holmes
HM: Yeah. Don’t ask me the names, I can tell you the, probably tell you the first name, the, he was called, W. B. Holmes, Basil, we called him Basil, anyway and we had a navigator who was called Jock, he was the bomb aimer, he was a Scot, he came from Scotland. Navigator, we had, he was from London, Ken, Ken, had another air gunner called, the mid upper gunner was called Colman, I forgot his name there, what was his name again? Oh! It’s gone, it’s gone over the head, he was one, he was the grandson of the mustard people, you know, Colman’s mustard
DK: Oh, right, oh right, yeah
HM: Was the grandson of the custard, people, the navigator was called Ken, he came from London. I’ve already given you the bomb aimer. Well, the flight
DK: Flight engineer
HM: Flight engineer, I don’t know if his name’s in the book
DK: We’ll have a look in a minute
HM: It might be
DK: So you were always the rear gunner then
HM: I was always the rear gunner, I operated in that position all the time, all the time I was at Lossiemouth
DK: Cause I noticed towards the end of the time at Lossiemouth, your pilot all the time was Holmes,
HM: Yeah, yeah
DK: So, you’ve crewed up by this point.
HM: Yeah, he’s
DK: So, you had another, other pilots then by
HM: We had another pilots but he was still with us on the pilot, the pilot was still with us every time,
DK: Oh, ok.
HM: The instructor would be with him
DK: Oh, ok, so, you’ve crewed up and where it mentions another pilot, your pilot’s there but he is the instructor,
HM: Yeah
DK: Yes, I’ve [unclear] with you
HM: He’s the instructor as well, you see. It was a nice aircraft, the Wellington, mine was very cold, and we had, fortunately we had heat suits, you know, but once I climbed from the rear turret into the middle over the spire and of course I didn’t have me, me heat on then, I mean, me feet were absolutely frozen, I couldn’t feel them, couldn’t move them, so the lads had to drag us over the top and to plug in to bring the circulus back and
DK: So, did you have a heated suit then?
HM: Oh yeah, I had a heated suit which just [unclear] various points of the aircraft because at fifteen thousand feet, you know, it’s very cold and you could feel it, I mean, as you know, we had silk, wool and silk underwear, as well as ordinary suit, the flying suit on top of that, we had plenty of [unclear], plenty of [unclear], as far as the heat was concerned, the temperature at fifteen is pretty low and I lost the use of my legs cause so cold, as soon as I plugged in warm,
DK: Warmed up again
HM: So, ok, no problem at all. So that was Lossiemouth, I spent quite, I think I told you
DK: Yeah, you, it says here you were at Lossiemouth until the end of November 1944
HM: Yeah, about three months I think there
DK: Yeah. And then, going on for the benefit of the recording here, you then gone to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Heavy Conversion Unit, Rufforth
DK: Rufforth
HM: Just outside York
DK: Right. So then, that’s March 1945,
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s in Halifax IIIs?
HM: Halifax IIIs. Yeah, that was a different one to that one there, that’s the two,
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah, Halifax Mark IIIs.
DK: So, what did you think of the Halifaxes then?
HM: Well, I find them fine, they seemed to me to be a solid aircraft, you know, was heavily, was, apparently it was, the engine was underpowered, should’ve had stronger engines, they had the Merlins, Merlin engines but apparently was underpowered, the Halifaxes but also workhorse of the Air Force, no doubt about it
DK: Cause the Halifax III had the Bristol Her, Bristol engines, didn’t they?
HM: The
DK: Bristol [unclear]
HM: They had, they changed to Bristol engines, but the first ones, the Merlins were underpowered,
DK: Underpowered, yeah
HM: But I found it, the skipper seemed to like it, he, there is one thing about him he would let us have a go at flying it as well
DK: Oh, right
HM: Of course, I mean, he was here all the time, so he said, well, if anything happens to me, at least somebody will do, sort of take over and manage to get home sort of thing
DK: So, how often did you take control then?
HM: More or less every time we were up, just for a five minutes maybe, just get a go at it and feel
DK: Really?
HM: Feel it, you know, but nearly every time up, without the instructor
DK: Yeah, without the instructor looking [laughs]
HM: He wouldn’t let, but the skipper did, especially if we were on a long flight,
DK: Yeah. Do you
HM: Three hours up, three hours up to five I was
DK: Do you think that might have given your pilot a bit of confidence, knowing that if something happened to him, somebody would step in?
HM: Yeah. Well, I think that’s what he wanted us to do, I think that it gave him, as he was saying, probably gave him confidence if anything happened to him we could, at least one of us could probably manage to get us home sort of thing. But that’s where I finished, that’s where I finished me time, Rufforth. [unclear] I got to a squadron first, I got to a squadron after that but you [unclear] any about the squadron
DK: Alright, ok, so at the Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s where the flight engineer would have joined you, wouldn’t
HM: That’s where he joined, at [unclear], that’s the first time we’d met him
DK: So you are now a crew of seven at that point
HM: We’re a crew of seven at that point
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: Right, so that’s it for the logbook then
HM: That’s it for the logbook, yeah. The reason for that was the war ended
DK: Alright
HM: We just got into Full Sutton, 77 Squadron, got booked in and had a chat there, got me leader, met everybody we had to meet and of course the war finished
DK: Yeah
HM: So, I never got on operations
DK: Never got on operations
HM: So, and then
DK: So, after all that training
HM: [laughs] after years training,
DK: Yeah
HM: You know,
DK: So it says here, the last flight here is 4th of May 1945
HM: That’s it
DK: As a rear gunner
HM: And I trained, I started
DK: Holmes’s again the pilot
HM: Yeah
DK: In the Halifax III
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s just before you went to 77 Squadron at Full Sutton
HM: Yeah, went to Full Sutton and they had Halifaxes of course, booked in and did everything we had to do, we stayed about a month I think,
DK: Yeah, so
HM: And then I got
DK: The war’s ended
HM: The war ended, so there was no use for air gunners
DK: Yeah
HM: So, then I got posted down to RAF Beaulieu. From Beaulieu, cause if you knew you moved through the rank of sergeant by then
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, when I was sergeant at Rufforth, well, I was sergeant at Lossiemouth. Then I transferred from there down to Beaulieu, A-F-E-E Squadron, which was Air Force Experimental Establishment, so they were expecting on, they were practicing jeeps, and dropping jeeps
DK: Oh, right, ok, from
HM: Parachuting jeeps
DK: From Halifaxes again
HM: No, no, from, what aircraft did they get there? I can’t remember what aircraft we had, was it the Dakota? Could’ve been a Dakota.
DK: Yeah
HM: But I, you see, I wasn’t flying then
DK: Alright
HM: I’ve been moved back to my MT, I was NCO in charge of the MT at Beaulieu, cause I was gone up the rank again, I was Flight Sergeant by then,
DK: Looking back now, how do you feel that, after all that training, you didn’t do any operations? Do you feel that’s a good thing or?
HM: Well
DK: Relieved?
HM: Oh, I didn’t, to be honest, I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel anything
DK: No
HM: I just felt I’d done all that work for nothing. I mean, of course they didn’t know when the war was going to end,
DK: No
HM: You know, they got no idea so I could well have been in operations
DK: Was there any suggestion about you going to the Far East?
HM: Never any [unclear], just, no, I was never at any time moved out of the UK, the only time I went was Northern Ireland, it’s as far as I got across the water, but, no, I never, they didn’t, I don’t know, it just didn’t seem to bother me at the time, I mean, you’re young, you know, you’re twenty years old so, and you don’t sort of care what happens, you just get on with life as it comes,
DK: So how did you, after all these years, how do you look back at your time in the RAF then? Was it?
HM: I enjoyed my time in the RAF
DK: Yeah
HM: In fact so much so I wanted to stay on
DK: Right, so
HM: I wanted it to become a career
DK: Right
HM: But
DK: So you left in ’47.
HM: So I left in ’47. I did five full years in the RAF, I went in April and I think I came out in April approximately anyway
DK: And what was your career after that?
HM: Well, I had to go back to civvy life and I mean, already most of the jobs had been taken up because I’d been out for two years, most of them had been out for forty five, you know, out of forty five alot, I still [unclear] went after that but for two years the jobs were getting filled up
DK: Yeah
HM: So
DK: So, there’s few opportunities for you by now
HM: There was fewer opportunities really, there was very little to pick on, so I had to go sort of, I did, I joined, a [unclear] worked as a [unclear] so he got me a job at the, [unclear] shop, was a big concern, [unclear] called it, he had about six shops spread over here and there and I used to drive the van there delivering the goods round the shop for customers you know and then from there, I didn’t like that job at all, well, I had, it was just to get money, really, you had to have something to live on, so from there I went to insurance, I did two years in insurance and then a job came up at Hoover Limited were applying for a man so I applied there and I got a job there and that was the best thing that I’ve done in my life, working for Hoover
DK: So you were there a number of years then
HM: I was there for, oh, ten years, something like that
DK: You say you wanted to stay on in the Air Force. Did, was there a reason why?
HM: The reason was why, my wife
DK: Ah, ok [laughs]
HM: She wanted a home
DK: Right, ok
HM: Cause I said, you know, I’m, I’d like to stay on but she said, well, I’m not very happy about that, so I said, well, fair right enough, fair enough, I’ll, I could have made a lovely career cause I’d been put forward to become an officer, you know and the squadron leader, I can see him now, engineering officer, I wonder whether actually he’d come and think of it because I was in the charge of the MT section and I had WAAFs as well and the young, the young WAAFs were devils, they’re always late in turning up for work, you know, [unclear] started at eight o’clock, there’s one in particular, [unclear], nice girl, always a half an hour late, you know, and I used to warn her, [unclear] if you keep going on like this, so I did fancy but I got kind of fed up, so I said, look, I’m going to show my authority in here instead of being nice to you all, I’m gonna be a sergeant, so I put her on a fizzer and I’ll tell you another one, I went, [unclear], report order and all so I saw the WAAF, Flight Lieutenant she was, had a word with her, you know, she was a nice girl, I said, you know, a WAAF, you see, putting on a WAAF in charge is different than putting a man in charge, when you want a man in charge, you stand beside him,
DK: Right
HM: If you put a WAAF on charge, you stand beside the officer,
DK: Right
HM: And she asks the other questions, you know, and the reason why I brought her [unclear] and of course there’s a WAAF sergeant with the girl so anyway she got seven days [unclear], I said, there you are, that’ll have to keep you, she said, well, I wasn’t going to go out anyway [laughs], oh well, that’s a good excuse, but I wasn’t that type of NCO, you know, I was very lenient with them, as long as they did their job I was quite happy, there’s only I got tired of them, not turn up with the others, which was like school, and that was another [unclear], the squadron leader and engineering officer who M T [unclear], he, I put one of the lads on a fizzer, he’d been abroad and he only had shoes, well he [unclear] so he had to wear boots you know, well, aircrew always wore shoes but ordinary airmen wore boots
DK: Yeah
HM: And he was an ordinary airman and he just had shoes on this day, officer happened to come along, Squadron Leader [unclear], can picture him, and he says, he came into the office and he says, Mercer, says, I saw an airman over there and he’s got shoes on, he’s not allowed to wear shoes, so I said, well, I’m sorry sir but that airman has just come from abroad and he hasn’t been issued with shoes, boots, never mind that, you’ve got to put him on a charge, so I put him on a charge, and then a flight lieutenant took the [unclear] that day to say I got this lad, this airman, what you’re here for, you know, oh, you’ve been wearing shoes, you’re not allowed to wear shoes. So he said he hadn’t any boots, he said, I haven’t any boots, he says, well, the [unclear] chaps in charge of the distribution of clothing
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: The quartermaster
HM: Well, sort of a quartermaster, yeah, airman in the forces
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Clothing whatever, anyway, he hadn’t boots to fit in so well, he said, that’s tough, he says, you should be wearing boots, he said, I had them before now, so I said, I’m sorry sir, you can’t charge him because this airman has just come from abroad and there’s no way if the stores, the main stores haven’t got boots in, there’s some over there the equipment, I’ll talk to the equipment officers
DK: The equipment officer, yeah
HM: So, he was just a flight lieutenant, so he said, righto, I’ll take you [unclear], discharged, so obviously phoned squadron leader [unclear] here, is Mercer there? oh yes, speaking sir, I want to see you, ok, so I went to see him, he said, you did the wrong thing, you know, I said, why, sir? He said, well, you got this airman off his charge, I said, well, I believe in equality as well and I’m right, right decisions to be made, sir, well, I says, this airman had no chance to get shoes, the boots, I said, all he could bare were shoes, at least he turned up properly
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Did his duties properly. Oh right, well, I’ll let you off this time, I says, ok, sir. Anyway, the next [unclear] rings me up again, I want a word with you, so I said, yeah, that’s fine. He said, let’s forget about that situation, he said, would you not like to join full time, and be make of your career, I said, to be quite honest, sir, I would love to, but you’d have to have two words with my wife if you wanted to get me here. So, you know, there’s a camaraderie in the Air Force as well, you can talk, at one I suppose I can talk [unclear] me, but I think the discipline is not quite so strict as the other forces, there’s a little bit of leniency, in my opinion, because it was the same on nearly every camp I went to, I used to get on well with all the officers and all the fellows around about, [unclear] a different atmosphere amongst the
DK: Is it something you missed then over the years?
HM: Yeah, I miss, I do, I miss the camaraderie as I would call it, the get togetherness, you know
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crew at all?
HM: No, unfortunately we only had one get together, down in London in the Cumberland Hotel, and I never couldn’t get in touch with anybody anymore after that, nobody seemed to bother, you know, but we’d be together quite long to nearly a year nearly from the think of it, when you think of it
DK: There’s a lot of training you went through together, wasn’t it?
HM: A lot of training we went through together, many good nights we had together, and that, the last one the squadron leader I was talking about, the last engineering officer, one night I was finishing the last week actually and it was a terrific storm that night, he says, come on, we’ll have to go out and check all the aircraft, so I went round with him and all the time he says, [unclear] you could make a lovely career, he says, there’s good things ahead for you if you want to stay in, he says, I’ll speak for you, so, but he tried all that, all that night and it was a really horrible night, wind howling and we just checked the aircraft and then that was it but he was, he’d been in the Air Force a long time, he was engineer, squadron leader and he was engineering officer, and I got on very well with him and wanted him just things going through my head sometimes, we had to lift a huge pile about the height of this room round, out of a Nissen hut, you know, was the height of the Nissen hut, I think it was the dining section so it might have been a bigger hut, anyway it had to be lifted this boiler had to be lifted out
DK: So it was a boiler you were lifting out
HM: It was a boiler I was lifting out, one of these huge things and so I said, one of the drivers, he says, look, will you take the trawls crane, to lift this boiler up, for we want to get to disposal, oh, I can’t, I can’t do that, I say, yes, pushed an empty [unclear], yeah but, he said, but I have never lifted a boiler and I have never driven a trawls crane, says, some driver you are, so anyway, I couldn’t get any of them, anyone, I said, it’s slightly the worst thing, do it yourself if you want to do it, if you want don’t, do it yourself, so I had to, I had never drove a [unclear] crane to be quite truthful, so anyway I had a run, just did what I had to do and give it a few works to see how it lifted and dropped and I lifted it up, put it up, and the lad said, gave us a clap [laughs] after at first, I said, you lot should have been doing this, not me
DK: So, can I just go back to something, I just noticed on here, 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Yeah
DK: It says, you did twenty-eight hours twenty-four minutes daily and seven hours five minutes flying at night, so that was all training
HM: That’s all training, yeah
DK: So, what was the night-time flying like, was that hazardous or?
HM: Well, it was hazardous in a way, because although the war had finished, you never knew if there was gonna be a stray around so you had to still keep on your guard, you know, I’d rather think you were so tensed really but you had to still keep your way as you were flying and we were flying right down to the coast, you know, the full length of England and just to the coast and back and [unclear] and the skipper says, we better turn back or they think we are going to drop a bomb on them and we were going over Bristol Channel, just around about that area, he says, the rear gunner, you can have test your guns here if you wish, I said, ok, so I prepared everything and had a few bursts, he said, I think, I think that’s enough, they might think we are firing at them and they will be firing back at us, yeah, these are just little things that, you know, people think, well you wouldn’t do, but you do
DK: Cause some of these training flights they are quite long, are they? There is one here is three hours and three minutes
HM: Three hours, yeah
DK: And others are quite short, aren’t they? About forty minutes, fifteen minutes
HM: Yeah, you’ll find the one, three hours and I think there’s one a bit longer than that
DK: I got three twenty-five and three fifteen
HM: Yeah
DK: It looks like that
HM: That’s when we went down the coast, right to the bottom and back
DK: Ok then, I’ll probably stop you there, I think, that’s marvellous that is
HM: Yeah
DK: Thanks very much for your time
HM: Yeah, well
DK: I’ll stop that now
HM: We did our work and I never used it
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, we put a lot of time and thought into it, sort of thing
DK: So, you put a lot of time and effort into the training and then never did any operations
HM: No, we never did the finishing work, but I enjoyed me time in the Air Force anyway, you know, the five years that I had, I’ve got, you know, some nice memories
DK: Memories, yeah
HM: Memories of it
DK: Yeah
HM: And that’s as you say, the only thing that I didn’t do an operation [unclear] after training, you know, but
DK: [unclear]
HM: That’s a luck of the draw,
DK: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Mercer
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMercerH170519, PMercerH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:14:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Mercer served in the RAF initially as a transport driver and then trained to become an air gunner. He worked as a milkman before being called up in April 1942. Was sent to Weston-super-Mare, where he played in the military band. Was then sent to Blackpool to train as a transport driver. From there he was sent to RAF Bridgnorth for general training. Was then posted to 901 Squadron on barrage balloons at RAF Kidbrooke, London, where as a transport driver he supplied balloon sites with food and equipment. Was then posted to Eglinton, Northern Ireland at 5019 Squadron, where he drove a flight lieutenant to various airfields and maintenance sites. Was then sent to train as an air gunner. He flew on Ansons at RAF Pembrey and on Wellingtons at RAF Lossiemouth. Was then posted to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Rufforth on Halifax Mark IIIs and from there to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton. By that time, war had ended and so he never got on operations. Was then posted to RAF Beaulieu to the Air Force Experimental Establishment.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Northern Ireland
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1945
1663 HCU
20 OTU
77 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
entertainment
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Pembrey
RAF Rufforth
RAF Weston-super-Mare
service vehicle
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/AAlgarH170520.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Algar, Harry
Harold Keith Mael Algar
H K M Algar
Description
An account of the resource
Thirteen items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Algar (1924 - 2022, 1801102 Royal Air Force) and his log books and documents.
He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Greg Algar and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Algar, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: [unclear] So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harry Algar at the Dambuster’s Inn on the 20th of May, is it the 20th today?
HA: [unclear] we’ve been discussing that this morning, what the date is [laughs]
US: I think it is, yes.
DK: Ok, [unclear], I can always amend it later. If I keep looking down at this, I’m just making sure that it’s still working cause I sometimes get beaten by the technology and the battery runs out or something
HA: Yeah
DK: So if I look down that’s all I’m doing. So, just leave that there. So, what I wanted to ask you Harry was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HA: Well, at that time I was working in London right next to London Bridge, working for Hay’s Wharf and I used to go up there every day, because in those days I went there on Saturdays as well as the other days of the week and I was what they called an office boy in those days, I don’t suppose they have them these days, but I worked in the engineer’s department of Hay’s Wharf [unclear] on the river front right from London Bridge down to Tower Bridge and part of my job was to walk from there to there and put in the time cards for the various [unclear] cranes and all the equipment they had on the wharf and then we’d take them out at the end of the week, work out their wages, that was my job then
DK: Right, so, what made you then want to join the Air Force, is there anything in particular?
HA: Well, yeah, in those days, it’s any different now but I did realise that there was gonna be trouble with Germany again and so I thought if I joined the RAF now at least I’m in the Air Force, not in the navy or the army
DK: So, the navy and army didn’t appeal to you?
HA: Not really, no, and so I joined the, what was it called? The
DK: ATC
HA: ATC, yes, I was one of the first to join the ATC, I joined the Woolwich Squadron, cause I lived comparatively near to Woolwich
DK: So how old would you have been about then?
HA: Sixteen,
DK: Sixteen
HA: Sixteen, seventeen
DK: Yeah
HA: Yes, I actually joined the Air Force when I was seventeen and I got called up when I was eighteen
DK: Yeah, right. So what did you feel when you were called up into the Air Force, what were you?
HA: I was expecting it, you know, it’s no great surprise
DK: No. And what were you hoping to do once you joined?
HA: Well, when I was in the ATC, I took the [unclear] leave for navigators, pilots and bomb aimers and that was sufficient actually to get me into aircrew
DK: Right. So you were tested then to see what your best sort of role
HA: Yes, well, when I actually joined the RAF the first thing I did was to go to the Elementary Flying Training School on, what the heck they called them?
DK: Is it the biplanes, the Tiger Moths?
HA: Yeah, Tiger Moths, on Tiger Moths, yeah. So, I was on Tiger Moths but I wasn’t specially able to, I didn’t progress quickly enough and so I came out of that particular scheme and got sent to Canada to do an air bomber scheme.
DK: So, when you were trying to fly the Tiger Moths, did they tell you quite early on, no, this isn’t
HA: I did about ten or twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths and after that they said, we think you’re more likely to kill us than kill Germans [laughs] so I was taken off the scheme.
DK: So, you then went off to Canada.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
HA: Well yes, at the time, Roosevelt was in charge of the scheme and Churchill was going out to Canada to meet him and to discuss the state of the war and so Churchill was on the Queen Mary and I was on the Queen Mary as well.
DK: Oh right, Churchill was on the ship at the same time.
HA: Yes.
DK: Oh, right.
HA: Cause in those days, but most people don’t realise it that you couldn’t fly to Canada, not directly, you could only go by in small hops you know, so he went on the Queen Mary and I went on the Queen Mary
DK: Did you see him?
HA: Yes, I was outside his suite supposed to be guarding him, unfortunately I was rather sick [laughs] I could only go out and say [unclear]
DK: Were you a bit seasick then?
HA: Oh yes.
DK: So you were supposed to be actually guarding Churchill.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Did he speak to you?
HA: No, I never saw him.
DK: You never saw him, oh, right.
HA: No. And of course when we went because we had him on board we had a squadron of Spitfires with us going down the Irish Sea and then we got down to the Irish, through the Irish Sea into the Channel, then it would be full steam ahead and then go down south into the South Pacific, South Atlantic so that you would avoid the submarines and then come up the coast of
DK: So, you weren’t actually in a convoy then, you [unclear]
HA: No, just a single ship
DK: Just the Queen Mary
HA: Yeah. It could outrun submarines
DK: Alright, so [unclear]
HA: And of course the submarine could, if it was very lucky, happen to be [unclear] our position to torpedo it but [unclear]
DK: Yeah, so are going at quite a speed then on the
HA: Yes, it could do thirty knots, twenty eight to thirty knots something like that but they were quite a quick [unclear] away but because of the length of the trip going down into the South Atlantic it took us best part of a week, I think
DK: And whereabouts in Canada did you dock, you remember?
HA: Well, we docked at New York
DK: Alright.
HA: We docked at New York and
DK: Was this, would this have been the first time you’d been over to another country in overseas?
HA: No, in, before I left school, I went on a school trip to Holland and Belgium and France
DK: Alright. Obviously the first time to America then
HA: First time to America, yeah, and then from New York we went up to Moncton in Canada which was via Boston and Providence and then we waited in Halifax until there was this place in a school for me to go to and then I was sent to Picton in
DK: In Picton
HA: Picton, yeah, in Ontario and did a bomb aimers course there and then after that I did a short navigation course
DK: So, what did the bomb aiming course involve then? What did you have to do?
HA: Well, it involved a whole of the theory of bombing, also all the things to do with the bombs and the components, so that you knew exactly what the bombs would do and what sort of fusing they had on them and pyrotechnics as well, so a lot of it was more or less, more armament than anything else and I’d be responsible for the bombload on the, on whatever aircraft I was flying at the time
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft were training there?
HA: Yeah, yeah, Ansons
DK: Ansons, yeah
HA: And then we had Blenheim IVs,
DK: Right.
HA: Blenheim IVs we used as towing targets and also we were going to the turret of another one and fire at a drove that
DK: [unclear] being towed, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did
HA: They were towed by Lysanders
DK: Lysanders. So, what did you think of Canada then, was it?
HA: Oh, it was fine, I mean, it was [unclear] really I suppose because when we went there it was still more or less summertime I think, I can’t quite remember when I went but
Dk: [unclear] people were training in winter [unclear] it was very cold
HA: Well we, when I’d finished training I went back to Halifax to wait for a boat, to take a ship to bring me back to England and that was in the winter and we had several feet of snow and I took the opportunity to go to Montreal and Quebec and also I took a couple of trips down to New York because we had a fair amount of time spare you know, it wasn’t something you [unclear] [mimics a bombing sound] that’s how you’re going to work, it was done over a period of time cause you never knew exactly when you were going anywhere
DK: No. So, what did the training actually involve? What are you also dropping dummy bombs as well or?
HA: Yes, yes, that’s in
DK: Is in one of the logbooks
HA: One of them, yeah, first of them
DK: That one, that’s, is that the first one?
HA: Right at the beginning
DK: So, I’ll read this out just for the benefit of the recording here, so you were with 31 Bombing and Gunnery School
HA: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, so, Picton
DK: Picton, Ontario, Canada,
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you’re going, you’re flying on Lysanders, no, you’re not flying, sorry, you’re flying on Ansons
HA: Yeah. Doing the bombing
DK: Yeah, flying on Ansons and the [unclear] which is the Blenheim.
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got example here is six bombs, there’s quite a number of flights on the Ansons then
HA: Yeah
DK: And the [unclear], yeah, and the Anson again
HA: And I went to the navigation school
DK: Alright, that’s
HA: At Mount, Mount Hope, Mount Hope is still in use in Canada as a major
DK: Funny enough I’m going there next month
HA: Oh yeah?
DK: Hamilton and Mount Hope, so this is, so then you went onto number 33 ANS
HA: Yes
DK: So that’s the Air Navigation
HA: Air Navigation
DK: Air Navigation School, yeah. And that was at Mount Hope,
HA: Yeah
DK: Hamilton, Ontario.
HA: Yeah
DK: So then you’re back on Ansons again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was purely navigation training
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got where you had to fly from and to then
HA: Yeah, various cross-country trips
DK: Yeah. And then, so you’ve come back to the UK then
Ha: Yeah, then we went to Penrhos
DK: Penrhos, so that was number 9 AFU
HA: Yes, Advanced Flying School
DK: Number 9 Advanced Flying School
HA: And that was really to get you into, you know, into with the sort of weather that you would have in England which was obviously quite different to Canada, so that was an introduction to English weather
DK: So that was all air bombing training again
HA: Yeah
DK: Rather than navigation and that’s all on Ansons. What did you think of the Anson as an aircraft?
HA: [laughs] Well of course it was, well the first Anson I flew in you didn’t, you, to get the undercarriage up you had to
DK: Wind it up
HA: Wind it up [laughs], so you had the pilot sitting there, I was sitting here and I’d be winding up the undercarriage [laughs]
DK: So, how many of you would go on, roughly on one of these training? Was it you and a couple of other
HA: Yeah, just, yeah, yeah.
DK: So you also used the gun turret as well.
HA: Yes, yeah
DK: So you’re trained in air bombing, gunnery and navigation
HA: Yes
DK: Yeah. [unclear] the training there so then you’ve gone to number 29 Operational Training Unit at Bruntingthorpe
HA: Yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: That’s 29 OTU Bruntingthorpe
HA: Bruntingthorpe
DK: There you’re on the Wellingtons
HA: Yeah, this was crewing up with the idea of eventually going onto a squadron.
DK: So, how did you meet your crew then, was it at the OTU?
HA: Yeah, yeah. All that happened was that they would have enough people from the various trades to make up about eight or ten crews, something like that and you’d all be put into one room and told to mingle and sort yourself out in your crews.
DK: And through that you found your pilot and
HA: Yeah
DK: Navigator. How did you think that worked, cause it’s a bit unusual. Because normally
HA: It worked very well actually because I never knew anybody who was dissatisfied with the people that I picked up to fly with.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual really, it’s not normally how the military worked
HA: Yes
DK: You’re [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah.
DK: But you think that worked well then
HA: It did, yeah, I was crewed up with, where I found my pilot, he was an Australian, that’s how I got on the Australian squadron
DK: Can you remember his name?
HA: Yes, Hyland, Frank Hyland, H-Y-L-A-N-D
DK: Frank Hyland.
HA: Yeah. His name’s in there
DK: Yes, his name’s in there, yes, so he’s Flight Sergeant Hyland
HA: Yeah
DK: H-Y-L-A-N-D
HA: Yeah. Then later on when we were going, I’m not sure whether it was when we were there but he got commissioned
DK: Right, ok.
HA: And we weren’t very keen on that because in those days the, well, do you know the, if you were commissioned, you were a bit [unclear] from the people who weren’t commissioned and it tend to break up the crew so we weren’t keen on that
DK: Would he have been the only officer on the crew then?
HA: Yeah, he was
DK: So, once he was commissioned then, did that mean you didn’t socialise at all?
HA: That’s right. Well, that’s not true because we did, it was against the law, but you know, you’re not supposed to socialise with your lower ranks but we used to meet up in pubs, we already did you know, because at that time was when things were beginning to break down when it came to the, you know, the iron fist in the services, you know, became easier to meet with
DK: But on the station itself you’d be living separate
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: You’d be in the officer’s mess
HA: That’s it, that was why we didn’t like very much, I mean you couldn’t talk as much as you would like to about what you’d done or what you expected to do
DK: Which I would imagine would’ve been good for you, your job if you got to know each other better
HA: Well, it is, yes, it is, yes
DK: So, at 29 OTU then you were flying Wellingtons?
HA: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington?
HA: They were marvellous aircraft really, they were geodetic construction which means they were as you probably know, teaching the conversion [laughs] but you know it’s like [unclear] with the canvas outside but they were remarkably strong and no, I thought they were great aircraft
DK: Right, so, so after 29 OTU then, gone on
HA: Then we started getting onto the Heavies
DK: Right, so
HA: And you didn’t go onto Lancasters straight away because all the Lancasters at that time were being used by frontline squadrons
DK: Alright. Ok, so then, just read your logbook again, you went to 1660
HA: Heavy Conversion Unit
DK: Heavy Conversion Unit and that was
HA: That was on Stirlings
DK: Right, so that’s at Swinderby
HA: Yeah
DK: [unclear] 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit, Swinderby and you’re flying Stirlings
HA: Stirlings, yeah
DK: What did you think of the Stirling?
HA: Not a lot [laughs], they were heavy, cumbersome things and they were all like, I think they got their design and that from people who worked on ships
DK: Right.
HA: I mean they were, they came from Ireland, Belfast and they’d been more used to work on ships than on aircraft
DK: And what was it like as an air bomber then? Because you’re at the front, are they quite high up?
HA: Oh yes,
DK: [unclear]
HA: Oh well, you don’t sit on the front for take-off
DK: Right, ok
HA: You come back and then you go down the front when you’re airborne
DK: I noticed you’re not having your coffee. [unclear]
US: [unclear] forgot it. He hasn’t brought it, has he?
DK: Right, ok, so, you’re
HA: I just done
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit
HA: That’s right, yes. And now next thing is the Lanc Finishing School which means that you go on to Lancasters and get tuned up on what’s happening before you go on the squadron.
DK: So that was, just for the benefit of the recording, making sure it’s working, is number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston
HA: Mhm.
DK: So you, so the idea is then you’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit to then [unclear]
HA: To the aircraft you’re gonna fly on Bomber Command. And you know, you get used to it before you actually get sent to a squadron cause obviously when you get to the squadron you’re expected to be [unclear] with what’s going on
Dk: Alright. So what did you think of the Lancaster then when you?
HA: A marvellous aircraft [unclear], very strong and quite fast and a good altitude, the defence wasn’t so hot, it was on any aircraft
DK: No. You say the defence, was that a problem with the machine guns or?
HA: Well, they were too light, you know, they were 303s and people were firing at you with rockets and whatever, well not rockets but heavier, heavier
DK: Calibres
HA: Calibre
DK: Yeah. So, as the air bomber then, on Lancaster, was not too short [unclear], were you responsible for both dropping the bombs and the front gun turret?
HA: Yeah, I was responsible for all the armament really on the aircraft and we would go up before a raid and we used to harmonise the guns on the turrets, they would be harmonised the four guns in the rear turret, harmonised at about four hundred yards, in other when I say harmonised all four came to
DK: Came together
HA: Yeah, at that point and in the front you just had two guns and you harmonise those for probably about a hundred yards something like that
DK: And also, so did you have any other roles as the air bomber besides that, so you’re looking after the guns, dropping the bombs and
HA: Well, as soon as you went out to the aircraft, I was in charge of the bombs and so I would have to go round and inspect all the bombs and remove every safety devices that weren’t used once we were airborne so the rest of the armament would be made live once you got airborne and once the aircraft got to target and started to drop the bombs as the bombs came out of their holding and the last safety devices would be removed and the bomb would be live
DK: So how could you remove the last safety device when you’re in the air?
HA: Well, they would [unclear] electrically
DK: Ah, right
HA: You had the, how can I put it? You had something that was locked in and when you switched on the electrics the [unclear] would work and clamp onto that thing and hold it in position till the bomb had gone
DK: Right, and you could control that from
HA: Yeah
DK: Something in the, the bomb aimers area
HA: Yeah
DK: So you had a control panel who did that
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: Alright.
HA: And you could, if you got into trouble, you could drop all the bombs at once [unclear] panel showed that you could drop a salvo of bombs all at once so if you put it on that you could get rid of the whole immediately so if you were in trouble, you could lighten the aircraft by several thousand pounds you know
DK: Very quickly
HA: Yeah [phone rings]
DK: Ok. So, after the Lancaster Finishing School then, you’ve gone to number 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: Based at Waddington
HA: Yeah
DK: So we [unclear] that for the benefit of that and that was in first, so, November 1944 [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: What did you think of Waddington when you got there?
HA: Well, we were very lucky really cause it’s a pre-war aerodrome with buildings, got accommodation as I said in my book there, some people were in Nissen huts you know in winter it was terribly cold and in summer they were really hot so they were quite uncomfortable, but we had permanent buildings to live in, we had a decent mess, we were really lucky
DK: And you mentioned you went to this particular squadron because your pilot was Australian?
HA: Yeah, we had an Australian wireless operator as well
DK: Right
HA: So we had two Australians on our, on our crew
DK: Can you still name the crew?
HA: Yes, Frank Hyland was the captain and the skipper
DK: Yeah
HA: I was the bomb aimer
DK: Yeah
HA: Navigator was Keith, what was his name?
DK: Listed in here?
HA: Yes, it is. Cause I was his best man
DK: Right.
US: [unclear]
DK: Frank Hyland, wasn’t that?
HA: Frank Hyland, yeah
DK: So, that’s your crew there
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you got Bob Stewart
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric
US: No.
HA: No, Eric is the only one that I, we couldn’t keep in contact with
DK: Alright
HA: After the war he just sort of disappeared and I found unfortunately, I’ve also forgotten his name as well
DK: Yeah, right. And then Ken Richardson?
HA: Yeah. He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner. Keith Jenkins?
HA: Yeah, he was the navigator.
DK: Navigator.
HA: Yeah
DK: Frank Hyland
HA: He was the pilot
DK: Pilot. And then you got Max ?
HA: Yeah [unclear] I don’t remember his name, he was the other Aussie.
DK: So, he was the wireless operator [unclear]
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Yeah
HA: He was a great sportsman actually, he played for Australia after the war, rugby
DK: Alright. So I’ll, just for the benefit of the recording again, I’ll read this out again, so, from left to right you got, [unclear], Bob Stewart, he was the
HA: He was engineer
DK: Flight engineer
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric somebody, who was
HA: The mid upper gunner
DK: Mid upper gunner, Ken Richardson
HA: He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner, Keith Jenkins,
HA: He was the navigator
DK: Navigator. Frank Hyland, pilot
HA: Was the pilot
DK: And the Max somebody
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Wireless operator and he was the Australian
HA: Yeah
DK: So, was 463 a good squadron, do you think?
HA: Yes, well, the thing was that you were only on the squadron for about six months really, in general you know, you don’t, you’re not gonna be on it for years and at that time you don’t get to know people all that well but because you’re, not really with the other squadron, the other crews, your, it’s your crew you were interested in
DK: Yes, yeah. So, you didn’t mix too much?
HA: Not all that much, no, we, as a crew we always stuck together and when went out socializing we always stuck together, we all had bikes you know, we just cycled down the pub, the Horse and Jockey at
US: Coningsby?
HA: No, The Horse and Jockey at, quite close to Waddington, Bracebridge Heath
DK: Bracebridge Heath. Yeah.
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it still there?
HA: Yeah
DK: Oh, right, I’ll have to go along to it at some point
HA: Yeah [laughs]
DK: See if they remember you [laughs]. So, looking at your logbook again then you got your first operation to Heilbronn?
HA: Heilbronn, yes
DK: Heilbronn, just for the benefit of the recording, H-E-I-L-B-R-O-N-N
HA: Yeah
DK: So, your bombs then are thirteen thousand pounds
HA: Yeah
DK: So, one
HA: One four thousand pounder
DK: Six
HA: Six one thousand pounders
DK: And six five hundred pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: So how did you feel after you’re done, after all this training and done your first operation?
HA: Oh, relieved I suppose, I managed to do one without getting shot down [laughs]. I mean the thing is lots of people joined the Air Force, they never managed to do very much because they got shot down on the first trip, you know, but to survive one tour [unclear] was very fortunate but Dinah’s father, he also was a navigator
DK: Alright.
HA: And he did eighty-three operations, oh, eighty-eight operations, he got, he was ordered a DFC and bar.
DK: What was his name?
US: Mayson
DK: Mayson, alright.
HA: M-A-Y-S-O-N.
DK: M-A-Y-S-O-N, I’ll make a note of that. Alright, so and he flew how many operations?
HA: Eighty-eight, I think it was.
US: I think it’s eighty-six, for all he said.
HA: Oh yeah, it’ll be eighty-six. Yeah, eighty-six.
DK: Can you recall which squadron he was in?
HA: Yes, [unclear] somewhere
US: I am not as old as Harry, so
HA: Not many are [laughs]
US: During the war, we stayed at home, he went and I didn’t really know an awful lot about it
HA: So, he was on Pathfinders as well, he flew on Lancasters, he flew on Mosquitoes,
DK: And so he was a pilot or?
HA: No, a navigator
DK: Navigator, sorry, navigator, yeah
HA: Actually I think he had the same sort of introduction to the RAF as I did, I think he used to wear an O badge, observer, observer was the same sort of thing as bomb and navigation which I did so I think we both did the same sort of course initially and then he went back onto navigation before I did
DK: Alright, and did eighty-three ops
HA: Yes, eighty-three ops. I think he did about thirty on Berlin
DK: Wow!
HA: [laughs]
DK: Ok, just for the benefit of the tape again, just going back to your logbook, so your second operation then, 6th of
HA: Giessen
DK: February 1944 to Giessen
HA: Yeah
DK: And there you got elven thousand pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was twelve one thousand pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: An interesting one next so, the 8th of December, operations to the Urft Dam
HA: Yes
DK: U-R-F-T Dam
HA: Well, that’s in green, it’s daylight
DK: Daylight
HA: But it was clouded over, we didn’t
DK: Cause you got, it says here, eight thousand five hundred pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was because it was
HA: Weather,
DK: Weather
HA: Couldn’t see the target
DK: No. Would that be normal then, if you couldn’t see the target you’d bring the bombs back?
HA: I don’t know if it would be normal, but we probably got recalled and it was probably said in the brief [unclear] did not jettison or something like that
DK: Oh, ok. And what was it like flying at night compared to day? Did you prefer one to the other?
HA: Oh yes, night flying was always a bit hairy because we went, you take off say from Waddington and it’s probably dark when you take off, you may well have seen the odd aircraft crash you know and you knew that it could be a bit dodgy taking off at night time with all that load of armament on board
DK: Yeah, and the petrol as well
HA: Yeah. Yeah
DK: Ok, so just going through this again then so you had another operation recalled here, so that’s the 10th of December 1944, operation recalled and then,
HA: Where was that to?
DK: It doesn’t actually, it just says, operation recalled
HA: How many hours did it do?
DK: Two hours forty-five
HA: They got started
DK: And then on the 11th of December 1944 it’s the Urft Dam again
HA: Yeah
DK: U-R-F-T,
HA: Again
DK: Ten thousand pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Again [unclear]
DK: Ten tenth cloud. Ah, and then 18th of December 1944, operations to Gdynia. That was
DK: It’s in Poland, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah, bombing the German fleet which had taken position in Gdynia and we’re bombing them
DF: And that says thirteen thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: And it does actually say in pencil here, Poland bombing German fleet
HA: Yes, right.
DF: And it says landing FIDO
HA: Oh yeah, FIDO, that was, yeah, when we came back it was
DG: Fog
HA: Fog everywhere and we didn’t really know where we were too well and we were told to fly on dead reckoning and wondering whether we would be able to find anywhere to land because you couldn’t get in contact with people without the aerodromes like you could today, there was no VHF or UHF, it was HF, HF was short range communication and so, you know, it was sometimes very difficult to get in touch with people that could help you, so we were just flying along wondering what was going to happen whether we’d have to bail out or [unclear] because we couldn’t find anywhere to land when in the distance we saw a glow in the sky and we flew towards it and then when we got there we realized it was FIDO which is a method of dispersing the fog and we were able to get down and land
DK: That was petrol set like each side of the runway
HA: Yes, petrol, clean burning petrol which dispersed the fog
DK: I bet that was an impressive sight
HA: Oh, it was
DK: [unclear] [laughs]
HA: This was at Carnaby
DK: Carnaby, right, ok.
HA: And the
DK: Was it a bit of a relief to see that then?
HA: Oh, it was, yeah, and there were lots of other aircraft already managed to land on it, the whole aerodrome was covered in aircraft that had managed to get in
DK: So then, next operation then, 12th of December 1944, operations to Politz
HA: Politz, that’s an oil refinery, a big oil refinery
DK: And that was twenty thousand two hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: So, one four thousand pounds and six one thousand pound bombs. So, then we’re into 1945 here, so 13th, I think that’s just 13th of January ‘45
HA: Yeah
DK: So, Politz again
HA: Yeah
DK: One four thousand pound bomb and fourteen five hundred pounds of bombs. And then 14th of January 1945, Wurzburg
HA: There’s an oil refinery
DK: Oil refinery again and then 1st of February ’45, Siegen
HA: Siegen, yeah
DK: S-I-E-G-E-N
HA: I don’t remember much about that
DK: And then 2nd of February ’45 operations to Karlsruhe
HA: Where? Karlsruhe? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: And then 13th of February 1945 operations to Dresden.
HA: Yeah
DK: So that was, it says here supporters,
HA: It means that we went around twice
DK: Right
HA: Because what it means is that you go in, drop your bombs and then to give support to those who were still coming in after you go round again, so that [unclear] far ahead [laughs]
DK: Alright. So that’s saying thirteen thousand seven hundred bombs, one four thousand pounder and elven, can’t quite read what that says,
HA: I’ll have a look
DK: Yeah. Is that incendiaries?
HA: Eleven cans, be eleven cans of incendiaries
DK: Eleven cans of incendiaries, right. Do you remember much about the Dresden raid?
HA: Well, yes, I suppose, I remember more than the rest because I suppose I probably brought it to mind because people keep talking about it [laughs]. As far as I was concerned, Dresden was just another town. I mean, I left school when I was fourteen, so I wasn’t all that well educated and Dresden, you know, was just another town
DK: Yeah, just another operation
HA: Yeah, another operation. I remember it because it did burn, I mean without a doubt it was a hell of a burn but
DK: So then 3rd of March 1945 operations to the Dortmund-Ems Canal
HA: Yeah
DK: So then, 5th of March ’45, operations to Bohlen
HA: Bohlen?
DK: B-O-H-L-E-N.
HA: Bohlen.
DK: Bohlen. And then 7th of March Harburg, 12th of March Dortmund, 14th of March Lutzkendorf
HA: Lutzkendorf, that’s another oil refinery
DK: And then it’s got, I notice you landed back at Alconbury
HA: Oh yes, yes
DK: Which was
HA: Oh, is an American base again was being in the fog or something like that we were being diverted there. I remember that because we were eating in the, I remember the soup in there was full of pepper [laughs] couldn’t possibly eat it and I said to this chap, why did you put that much pepper in this? He said, because I like it [laughs].
DK: Making taste, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: And then 20th of March ’45 Bohlen again, B-O-H-L-E-N. Then 22nd of March Bremen and then 27th of March Farge, F-A-R-G-E.
HA: Farge
DK: Farge, F-A-R-G-E. The war’s ended, are we? So, 4th of April Nordhausen.
HA: Nordhausen.
DK: Yes, 7th of
HA: Nordhausen was where they were firing the rockets from on London
DK: Oh, right. Would you, would you tell, can you recall if you were actually told about that, at the briefing
HA: Oh yes.
DK: What the target was?
HA: Oh yes. We were told what we were looking for, because these rockets that they were firing at London, they were coming out of woods and that sort of thing so they were extremely difficult to find, what we were looking for but they weren’t anywhere else you know and London was really getting a pasting with bombs and rockets
DK: The V2s
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HA: Yeah.
DK: So, 7th of April, the operation seems to be recalled and then I can’t quite, it’s something 8th of April I think it is, operations to Lutzkendorf again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s a supporters as well
HA: Yeah
DK: So would that mean you’ve gone round
HA: Yeah
DK: Twice again
HA: Yeah
DK: Then there was fifteen thousand two hundred and fifty pounds bombs, one four thousand pounder and fourteen five hundred pounds. And then 23rd of April Flensburg, and it says no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah, well, the war was very nearly closed then, very near to close and I think that was probably the last, one of the last targets that were nominated for
DK: And then I see the next few flights then was Operation Exodus
HA: Yeah, that was
DK: After that
HA: Yeah, that was picking up prisoners of war, British prisoners of war and bringing them back to England.
DK: That must have been quite [unclear]
HA: Oh yes, yeah
DK: Yeah. What sort of shape were the POWs in?
HA: Oh, very poor shape, yeah. And then of course, I didn’t actually do any, but they were also dropping food to Holland at that time.
DK: So, you didn’t do any Operation Manna flights?
HA: No, no.
DK: And then you’ve got Cook’s Tour.
HA: Well, that was just a sort of swan around Germany to see what damage [unclear] you caused [laughs].
DK: And presumably that would’ve been the first time you’d seen the damage then, was that
HA: Well, you could see it in daylight, if you did the odd daylight trip, as we did, you would see [unclear]
DK: And did the Cook’s Tour event involve taking the people on the aircraft?
HA: Yeah
DK: The ground staff
HA: Yeah, yeah
DK: So you had a circular flight there
HA: Yeah
DK: Munster, Dusseldorf, Essen, Cologne, Munich, Glad, sorry, Monchen Gladbach, then back to base. So the war has come to an end then
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you do at that point then?
HA: I went to India
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HA: In India they were going to demilitarize the Air Force there and most of the aircrew were [unclear] obviously they were the war [unclear] at a close but on the other hand there was, the fight was still going on with the Japanese so to some extent they wanted to have aircrew out in the Far East to take over bombing of Japan if
DK: Right
HA: If it became necessary. And we went to India with that intention but in fact what we did was to demilitarize the Air Force and we had to, the way we did it was to get the [unclear] in groups and take their uniforms and that sort of thing from them, pay them and organize transport for them to get back to home
DK: Alright. So it’s quite a different
HA: Oh, quite different altogether, yeah
DF: So, you weren’t considered to be flying out operations against Japan then?
HA: No
DF: No
HA: No. The only aircraft that we had that could possibly have done that was a Lincoln at that time
DF: Right
HA: But the Lincoln hasn’t actually been put on the squadrons at the end of the war, they never flew during the war on operations in England or in Europe rather.
DF: So, the war is ended, so it’s 1948 now and you’re
HA: I’m back from India
DF: India and then you’re going to number 2 ANS
HA: Yeah
DF: At Middleton Ste George. Was it, did you make a decision then to stay in the Air Force?
HA: Oh yes, yes, I applied to join before, I forget what years it was but eventually I was signed on till I was fifty-five. I didn’t serve until I was fifty-five because there was a Labor government in and they decided that they wanted to reduce the number of people into services and so there was a redundancy scheme offered and because we had three boys, we didn’t really want the family split up which would’ve been if I had carried on the Air Force, they’d had to go to school, [unclear] live in the school somewhere and I’d have to [unclear] somewhere
DK: And can you remember what year it was you left then?
HA: Yeah, I left in, what year was that?
DF: [unclear], ’49, ‘53,
HA: What year I left the Air Force? Oh, ‘69.
DK: ’69, right, yeah.
HA: Yeah, ’69.
DK: So, you’ve now trained as a navigator then
HA: Yeah, at Middleton St George
DK: Yeah. Let’s go through this, so, number 201 AFS
HA: And I was back then on Lancasters
DK: And Wellingtons by the looks of it
HA: Yeah was, yeah that was to crew up again
DK: Yeah
HA: Cause I’d been on a different crew
DK: And then 1949 Lancasters again with 149 Squadron
HA: Yeah
DK: At Mildenhall. And by this time, you are a fully-fledged navigator
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So these, some of the last Lancasters built, aren’t they?
HA: [unclear] what?
DK: Some of the Lancaster here, they’d be quite old by this time
HA: Oh yes, they would, yeah
DK: [unclear] crew here now, 1949 so Lancasters
HA: And
DK: So you’re with 149 Squadron for quite a while then.
HA: Yeah
DK: ’49. Then to the Central Gunnery School
HA: Yeah
DK: Lancasters again
HA: That was to get a qualification as an instructor on [unclear]
DK: So 1950 then you’re now on the Avro Lincoln
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you think of the Lincoln compared to the Lancaster, was it?
HA: It was bigger, better armed, cannons on the front, machine guns, but I don’t think, they were just a bigger version, that’s all [unclear] Lancaster I suppose
DK: So, then it was number 44 Rhodesia squadron at Whitten
HA: Yeah
DK: That’s Lincolns again
HA: Yeah [unclear]
DK: And then the 149 Squadron, the Washington conversion unit
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s August 1950
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s at Marham
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did you think of the Washington then?
HA: Oh, they were marvelous really cause they were, you fly unpressurised in them and they had a tube which ran from the front down to the back and you could actually bomb using radar equipment that was at the rear and you could actually guide the aircraft from the back
DK: Alright
HA: Using the radar target that you could see
DK: And that controlled the aircraft
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it true that B-29s had ashtrays?
HA: We didn’t [laughs]
DK: The Americans put ashtrays in the [unclear]
HA: I remember, we did use to smoke in there
DK: They had ashtrays. Were you impressed by the Washington then?
HA: Yes, yes, it was a big aircraft and carried a big load
DK: So, 149 Squadron again with Washingtons, right into 1951, so it’s mostly all training then
HA: Yeah, you could do the sort of flight you could do in a B-29 would last about sixteen hours
DK: Alright.
HA: When, there’s one in there, I think, sixteen hours we went there onto Africa and back non-stop
DK: You flew on the Washingtons for quite some time, didn’t you?
HA: Yeah.
DK: And this was all from the UK
HA: Yeah
DK: And then I see, so it’s 203 Squadron Coastal Command, then 236 OCU at Kinloss on the Neptunes
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what was the Neptunes like?
HA: It was good aircraft too, it was only two engines but it had [unclear] endurance, it did one time hold the record for endurance flying, the aircraft was called the reluctant turtle [laughs]
DK: That’s up to 1954 then when you
HA: Ah yes, I got commissioned in ‘54
DK: Ok, that’s, just one final question, just looking back at your time specifically with RAF Bomber Command in the war, how do you look back on that period now?
HA: I don’t think it ever, I mean, never, I don’t know, it never bothered me, you know, I read of some people getting bothered [unclear] about what you did and that sort of thing, it never bothered me, I mean, I was, I went through the Blitz in London, I was in the, we used to do fire watching and I remember London burning and when I was at, as a boy, you know, doing this office job as it were, we used to do at least one night a week fire watching and I can remember bomb was falling and terrific fires and we were putting these fires out, you know, and I remember one particular incident where sticker bombs fell into the water about a hundred yards away from us I think, but because they fell in the water there was no damage was done, you know, we didn’t get hurt but I mean, I had to [unclear] quite a lot from the Germans so I didn’t feel I was doing anything I shouldn’t do as far as I was concerned, I was defending my life and the life of my family.
DK: Ok, that’s great, we’ll stop there
HA: Ok.
DK: You’re absolutely marvelous. No, thank you very much for your time. It’s been wonderful, I think we covered everything.
HA: Ok [laughs].
DK: Just for the benefit, thanks very much for that.
HA: Do you
DK: There’s a notice here in the book. I thought you left the service at the time of the Neptunes but you went on, did you go onto the Shackletons after that?
HA: Yes.
DK: So you went to Guyana?
HA: Went to Guyana, yeah.
DK: And that’s cause it burnt down.
HA: Sorry?
DK: You said it was burnt down.
HA: Well the [unclear] Georgetown in Guyana was set on fire, yeah but the government decided, the British government decided they’d have to send troops out there
DK: Alright
HA: And so we carried the troops out there that meant these chaps we were taken out, had a very horrible journey because they had been taken from Ireland where we were based to [unclear], [unclear] down to Bermuda, Bermuda then out to Jamaica
DK: Right
HA: And then Jamaica to Guyana, all they had was a hard floor to lie on
DK: And that was on the Shackletons
HA: Yeah, you know, they didn’t have anything decent to lie on
DK: So what was the Shackletons like as aircraft [unclear]
HA: Well, they were really good aircraft, they did the job
DK: Yeah
HA: But I mean this was, they weren’t made for that sort of thing
DK: Yeah
HA: Carrying troops
DK: So, what was your normal role in Shackletons then?
HA: Again, I was first navigator on most of these trips.
DK: Alright. And that’s through the Cold War, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: You’re keeping an eye on the Russians.
HA: That’s right, yeah. And our sort of flying was, flying training was locating submarines and practice bombing them, that sort of thing
DK: Oh, right. Did you actually identify Russian submarines?
HA: Oh yes. Yes, you’d pick up a contact on radar and then you’d home into the contact and if you were lucky you’d probably find the submarine at the end, probably just diving, you know, realisng that it’d been found
DK: And would you make a dummy attack on it?
HA: Yeah
DK: Trying to go down
HA: There’s one trip we did in southern UK we came across about, well, I think there must have been about twenty Russian ships, a whole fleet in the Atlantic
DK: They didn’t ever fire on you then, did they?
HA: No, but they always turned their guns on us
DK: Alright.
HA: They were always pointing their guns at us.
DK: And you could see that [unclear]
HA: Yeah. We would never actually overfly them knowingly, just, we would just [unclear] round them
DK: So you went out to Rhodesia, was it Rhodesia then, wasn’t it?
HA: Yeah, we went down to South Africa
DK: Yeah
HA: And then I did quite a lot of flying from the Middle East when the [unclear] on
DK: Oman
HA: No, I’m sorry, my mind isn’t quite as quick as it should be. Cyprus
DK: Cyprus, yes, yeah.
HA: And then, there was some other in, where was that? Anyway, if you, it’s in that book
DK: Yes, it mentioned Oman here, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And then later the government came along and [unclear] the redundancy
HA: Yeah, I joined Barclay’s bank then [laughs]
DK: So, you did almost twenty-seven years in the Royal Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: And then ten years in Barclay’s?
HA: Twenty years
DK: Twenty years in Barclay’s. Oh right, ok. Good bank Barclay’s. [unclear] Ok, that’s great, I’ll [unclear], but thanks again for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Algar
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlgarH170520, PAlgarH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:55:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Algar worked as an office boy at Hay’s Wharf in London before the war. He entered the Air Training Corps before joining the RAF when he was seventeen. Started his training on Tiger Moths but was then sent to Canada to remuster as a bomb aimer. Remembers travelling on the Queen Mary, where he was assigned to escort Winston Churchill, and his training in Canada on Ansons and Blenheims IV. After completing his training, he was posted to 463 Squadron (RAAF) at RAF Waddington. Describes his role and his duties as a bomb aimer. Remembers some of his operations: coming back from an operation to Poland targeting the German fleet, they encountered heavy fog and managed to land safely at Carnaby airfield thanks to the fog dispersal system; taking part at the Dresden operation on the 13th of February 1945; operation to Nordhausen on the 4th of April 1945 to disrupt V2 rocket launches on London. He took part in Operation Exodus. At the end of the war, was posted to India. After the war, he trained as a navigator and flew on Neptunes, B-29s and Shackletons. Remembers fire-watching as a little boy during the Blitz in London and tells of a bomb dropping a few hundred yards away from him, leaving him unscathed.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
149 Squadron
1660 HCU
29 OTU
463 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
FIDO
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Carnaby
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
Shackleton
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/995/10626/PMossH1801.2.jpg
8fef87e0bf60954cc3caced45b9ca9a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/995/10626/AMossH181114.1.mp3
010bf15446d62b4b91fa96ccbdb97bc0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Moss, Henry
H Moss
Harry Moss
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty items. Collection concerns Henry Moss (1925 - 2020, 3041799, Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunner with 138 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham. Collection consists of an oral history interview, his flying logbook, documents and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Henry Moss and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Moss, H
Requires
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Henry Moss, Flight Sergeant, served in the RAF between 22 October 1943 to 10 April 1946. He trained as an Air Gunner and was involved in bombing Kiel, Potsdam, Heligoland, and Bremen before taking part in Operations Exodus, Manna and Revue with 138 Squadron. Henry was demobilised in 1946.
Henry left school in Bradford aged 17½ just before the outbreak of war with no qualifications . He worked in a variety of jobs including a garment fitter where he made waterproof clothing for dispatch riders. Henry passed his National Service medical board and joined the Air Transport Corps which led him to choose to join the Royal Air Force.
Henry was ordered to go to Viceroy House in London to be fitted with his unforms and receive his inoculations before moving on with his next stage of his training. He was then posted to RAF Usworth in February 1944 for his primary training. This was made up of marching and learning to salute, and basic tests on arithmetic and writing to place recruits on their trade path. There were people from many different places around the globe. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/28928
Henry learned how to strip down and re-assemble a Browning gun blindfolded but found this a pointless exercise as at altitude, it impossible to manipulate the small parts of the weapon with gloves on.
After RAF Usworth, he was posted to RAF Pembrey to the Introductory Gunnery Course at 1 Air Gunnery School flying Ansons. He did not experience air sickness and enjoyed flying. While here Henry learned about ‘offsetting’ the release of the bombs and how to aim accurately. He was surprised to learn that from his own records that he had scored 98.5% in the exam. Over his time at RAF Pembrey, he fired a total of 300 rounds. Henry was finally selected as an air gunner/wireless operator.
Henry’s next posting was to (26 OTU) RAF Wing on the Vickers Wellington, where he crewed up. His first pilot made a mistake during a landing and while the landing was safe, the pilot was sent home. His second pilot was Sergeant Crawford who he felt safe with for the rest of the war. From here Henry went to the 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit RAF Langer on Lancasters, and 138 Squadron RAF Tempsford. Henry flew to Kiel twice; both flights were at night and while he was involved in the sinking of the German ship Admiral Sheer, he did not see anything. Henry flew operations to Potsdam and a daytime operation to the Naval base on the island of Heligoland. He can remember being able to see the other aircraft and watching the torpedo boats below; he thought the operation was a bit of a ‘dead duck’. Henry’s final operation was to Bremen when they were hit by flak but ‘nothing vital was hit’. Henry referred to Operation Manna as ‘Spam Runs’
After the war ended Henry was involved, as a camera operator, in Operation Revue which was the creation of a digital map on mainland Britain as an aid to town and country. Henry was demobilised from Personnel Dispersal Centre 100 having achieved the rank of Flight Sergeant. In total he completed 436 hours 20 minutes flying. He went straight back to his previous job as a garment cutter in Bradford, but he did not stay in contact with any of ‘his’ crew.
Claire Campbell
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is, I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Henry Moss at his home on, what’s the date? Right. The 14th of November 2018. I’ll just put that there.
HM: Yeah.
DK: If you just speak normally. Yeah. That’s looks ok. So, if I can ask you first of all Henry what were you doing before the war?
HM: [laughs] [coughs] I had all sorts of jobs before the war. I left school just before the outbreak of war. Being in, I lived at Bradford at that time.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I was just leaving school. The boys without any qualifications went into the mill. Worked in the mill. From the mill I worked in a greengrocer’s shop. From the greengrocer’s shop I worked in a dye works. And then I went into garment cutting. Making waterproof clothing for the Army.
DK: Right.
HM: Cape down sheets, and dispatch rider’s waterproofs. And I stayed in that until I was called up at seventeen and a half.
DK: So what made you decide on the RAF then?
HM: Oh, I always fancied the RAF. I was in the ATC.
DK: Right.
HM: Previously to the RAF. And from the RAF at seventeen and a half it must have been November time 1943, got my call up papers to report to Viceroy Court in London.
DK: Right.
HM: That was a big block of flats that overlooked Hyde Park.
DK: Viceroy Court.
HM: Viceroy Court.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: I forget what the district was now.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But it looked over Hyde Park. And the mealtimes, part of the building went to the zoo in Hyde Park —
DK: Oh right.
HM: And were fed. And others, like myself stayed in the building. We got kitted out there with uniforms, inoculations and all that stuff. And I think it must have been sometime early December we moved up. We moved up to Usworth. A primary training. Normal primary training. Marching, saluting and all that stuff. To let, to let you know you’re in the Air Force.
DK: How did you take to that? Did you like it or was it something you, because you would you have done it in the ATC?
HM: Oh, it was something entirely new.
DK: Right.
HM: I was a bit apprehensive at first going down to London. First time really away from home.
DK: Yeah.
HM: In Bradford. A small town. Well, I’m saying it’s a small town. It’s a big town now. All on my own in a strange, trying to find this Viceroy Court. I found it rather daunting. But once I got there I was alright. When it came to moving of course we had transport from Viceroy Court to the station. Train laid on for us to go up to Usworth.
DK: Right. That’s where you did your —
HM: Northumberland.
DK: That’s where you did all your square bashing was it?
HM: Did all the square bashing.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Initial training.
DK: So at this stage then do you have any idea of what trade you wanted to do in the Air Force?
HM: I hadn’t a clue about it.
DK: So you hadn’t been divided out yet as to pilots and —
HM: Pardon?
DK: You hadn’t been divided out. Pilots, navigators, and —
HM: Oh no.
DK: No.
HM: Not up to this point.
DK: No.
HM: No. You hadn’t a clue what. What it was all about. You did various tests. Arithmetic tests and a bit of writing and so on. They decided I could go as a wireless operator/air gunner.
DK: Ok.
HM: I forget the name of the place we went to now. Anyway, whatever it was we did basically wireless operator or learning the Morse Code.
DK: Right.
HM: Practicing that.
DK: So, so these took the form of classes then were they of Morse Code. Morse Code classes.
HM: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Mostly. Yeah. There were Morse Code classes.
DK: And how many of you would be in there for the class?
HM: I should think about a dozen.
DK: Right.
HM: All tapping away going beep beep beep beep beep.
DK: And was it something you took to then was it? Something you found easy.
HM: I didn’t find it particularly easy but I managed it.
DK: Right.
HM: And also between the learning the Morse Code was learning about the Browning machine gun. The 303 Browning. Taking it to pieces. What it did. How many shots it fired. What the effective range was. And learned all those bits and pieces. I didn’t think a lot of that was necessary because if you got a fault with your guns if its more than just cocking and trying it again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: You can’t do anything because it’s so cold up there and you’ve got your gloves on and the tiny pieces. I found some of that was a bit superfluous.
DK: So what did the gunnery training consist of then? Were you, were you actually firing the guns at targets?
HM: Not at that time. No. It was just sort of introducing us to the gun.
DK: Ok. Right.
HM: Learning about it.
DK: And just taking them to pieces [unclear]
HM: Taking them to pieces and putting them together again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: We got so we could do it blindfold. And that was —
DK: Did they, did they time you then as you were?
HM: Oh no. They didn’t time you but as it got near the end of the course you’d have done it blindfold and somebody would take a piece out and you’ll be feeling all over for it. But the Morse Code. I passed on that alright. Passed on that, and we went to [pause] I can’t remember the sequence we went in but eventually we went to —
DK: Was it the Operational Training Unit?
HM: Burry training. Burry Port in South Wales.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: To an airfield there. And that was gunnery training.
DK: Right.
HM: More or less a first shooting.
DK: So what, what —
HM: The, it was a Martinet aeroplane. That was a single engine type towing a drogue.
DK: Right.
HM: And you’d go up in an Anson. I think it was four of us went up in the Anson. Took it in turns trying to shoot at the drogue. The way they could sort out who’s was what, the bullets were painted differently on the —
DK: Oh right.
HM: On the bullet itself so if it hit the drogue —
DK: You’d know whose it is.
HM: Red was yours. Blue was somebody else’s.
DK: Yeah. So did you, did you find, presumably that was the first time you’d flown then was it? In an Anson.
HM: That was the first time I’d actually flown.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So what was that like then?
HM: Well, then again it’s exciting.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Starting to fly. And that was, that was the feeling most of the time. When are we going to fly? What’s it going to be like? Will I be sick? Will I get airsick or —
DK: And, and were you?
HM: That was a worrying thing. Some did.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Most of us didn’t but —
DK: You didn’t then.
HM: I wasn’t airsick at all.
DK: So what was the Anson like? Presumably it was a bit cramped in there with four of you at the back there.
HM: It was a little bit. Yes. I remember that it was each side of the fuselage there was a little table and two of you sat at the table. You did this shooting at the drogue to see how well you could aim it and fire it.
DK: Yeah.
HM: They told you about offsetting for the distance.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And one thing and another.
DK: And was it, was it something you were, you were quite adept at? Could you, were you quite a good shot? Or —
HM: Not particularly [laughs] I must have been adequate because I passed through all right.
DK: Right. So —
HM: Then again we did a bit of Morse Code but not much of it. You just keep refreshing yourself.
DK: Yeah. So, so at this stage you could have still been —
HM: Oh, I could have been turned down. Yes.
DK: Turned down. Yeah. Or you could still have been a wireless operator as well then.
HM: I could have been a wireless operator.
DK: Yeah. So after your training then in Wales where did you move on to next?
HM: That [laughs] I can’t remember these places.
DK: Don’t worry. Yeah. Would this have been the, the OTU?
HM: Yeah. It would have been the OTU.
DK: It might actually be in the logbook.
HM: It’s probably in my logbook.
DK: Let’s have a look.
[pause]
DK: Right. So just for the recording then I’ve got number 1 AGS Pembrey so that was Gunnery School.
HM: Pembrey.
DK: Pembrey. Yeah.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Air Gunnery School. It’s got your results here. You look like you’re quite good.
HM: Are they?
DK: Yeah. Exam result ninety eight point five percent.
HM: Oh, well that’s not so bad [laughs]
Other: Wow.
HM: Yeah. Is that the —
DK: So you’re —
HM: Oh, that’s when we went to OTU is it?
DK: That’s the OTU.
HM: The Lancaster.
DK: Ok.
HM: Yeah. They were the actual flights.
DK: So that’s the flights in the Anson then.
HM: That was the flights. Yeah.
DK: So they’re from June 1944 and it’s got how many rounds you fired here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Three hundred rounds. So one to three tracers. Two hits.
HM: [laughs] Two hits.
DK: You’ve got eighteen hits here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: It says total flying nineteen hours and forty minutes. All in Ansons.
HM: In the Anson.
DK: Yeah. So that’s at the end of the training.
HM: That’s the end of the training at Pembrey.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah. Then we went to —
DK: It doesn’t actually say does it?
HM: It doesn’t say does it?
DK: So you’re on Wellingtons.
HM: Operational Training Unit.
DK: Right.
HM: In Wellingtons.
DK: So for —
HM: Then you did the crewing up.
DK: Right. So can you say a little about the crewing up then? How you all got together to form a crew?
HM: Well, you were all in a room. You chatted with various people and somebody you got on with and you’d say, ‘Oh you’re a gunner. Shall we crew up?’ ‘Yeah. We’ll be alright.’ Then you look for a navigator, or the navigator were looking for gunners. Or a pilot was looking for gunners. You finished with a crew.
DK: So, and can you remember your pilot’s name?
HM: Yes. Colin [Runji?]
DK: Right.
HM: He was an Australian.
DK: Australian.
HM: He was evidently quite a sportsman in Australia. Although being English we’d never heard of him.
DK: So he was quite famous in, in Australia then.
HM: He was quite, yeah something in Australia.
DK: Oh, here we go. At the back it says it’s 26 Operational Training Unit.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Does that ring a bell? 26 OTU.
HM: That doesn’t mean a thing to me.
DK: Right.
HM: But if you look in the records —
DK: Yeah.
HM: You’ll probably find it.
DK: Yeah. That was on the Wellingtons then.
HM: Yes.
DK: So that was between July ’44 and November ’44.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember much about flying in the Wellingtons? What it was like?
HM: Yeah. Well, we did a lot of take-off and landings. Training for the pilot. The air gunners had nothing to do. They just sat in the turrets.
DK: Right.
HM: And hoped for the best.
DK: So were you, for these training flights then were you sitting in the, in the rear turret?
HM: In the turret.
DK: Yeah.
HM: In the rear turret or mid-upper turret.
DK: Yeah. Would you be in the rear turret when you took off then?
HM: If I was in the rear turret. We used to swap around.
DK: Right.
HM: Sometimes be in the rear. Sometimes the mid-upper.
DK: Yeah. So how did you find the Wellington then as an aircraft? Did you feel quite safe in it?
HM: Oh yeah. Yes. No problems with flying with it.
DK: Right.
HM: They [pause]
DK: But you felt quite safe.
HM: What can I say? Oh yes.
DK: ’Cause you mentioned earlier about an incident where the pilot landed and he shouldn’t have done.
HM: Yeah. That’s in the Wellington.
DK: Right. Can you just repeat that? What happened?
HM: Well, I don’t, I don’t think I made a comment about it because we didn’t know that until after the flight.
DK: Right.
HM: He just disappeared. And when making enquiries we found that he’d been sent home or whatever it was.
DK: So what, what had he done wrong?
HM: Well, coming in to land he was doing a circuit. He come into what they called funnels. The pilot’s flying nice and steady ready to land. Got the gear down, the flaps down, and you as you were approaching you’re supposed to watch for a verey pistol.
DK: Right.
HM: Or you’re supposed to notice it if was fired. Well, this particular flight there’s a red verey pistol fired and evidently the pilot didn’t seen it.
DK: So if he had seen it he should have gone around again.
HM: He should have gone around again.
DK: Yeah. Because why would, do you know why it was fired? Was there something on the ground?
HM: Well, it would only be if there was somebody on the runway.
DK: Right.
HM: Ready. Getting ready to take off.
DK: Right.
HM: So he was sat at the end of the runway. You sort of went over the top of him.
DK: So there might have been a collision then.
HM: Oh, quite possible.
DK: So he just, he went. So you got a new pilot then.
HM: So we, started well basically we went to the end of that course and then crew up again.
DK: Oh right.
HM: With another. Make another crew.
DK: So you had to crew up all over again.
HM: All over again. And then really start the course again.
DK: Oh. So this is, this is when you would have then got the Australian pilot
HM: That’s when we got —
DK: The second time around.
HM: No. The first time.
DK: Oh the first time. Right.
HM: The first time it was an Australian pilot.
DK: Right.
HM: Then we [pause] I put my glasses away, I want them.
DK: Have you’ve got his name there?
HM: Yes. [Runji]
DK: [Runji]
HM: Lots of different pilots.
DK: Yeah.
HM: As [Runji] Then flew there. Warrant Officer Wild. [Runji] [unclear] [Runji] Watkins. But, but [Runji] was the main pilot at, in the OTU.
DK: Right.
HM: [ ] [pause] at the end of the course as I say we crewed up again.
DK: Right. So that’s the second time.
HM: This is the second time around.
DK: Right.
HM: When we flew with somebody called [Adey?], Flying Officer Bond. Then we got Sergeant Crawford who ended up our pilot.
DK: So —
HM: We flew with him for the rest of the time.
DK: So Crawford became your pilot.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Second time around. Right.
HM: Yeah. And he was a sergeant.
DK: Right.
HM: Evidently, as far as I can make out he was in the Air Force when war broke out. He was an engine fitter on one of the [pause] no, on one of the [pause]
DK: A pre-war thing was it?
HM: The [pause] big water platform.
DK: Oh the Flying Boats.
HM: The [pause]
DK: Seaplane?
HM: Just had a new one. Must have been commissioned just recently.
Other: Aircraft carrier.
DK: Oh aircraft.
Other: Aircraft carrier.
DK: I’m with you. I’m with you. Right.
HM: He was on an aircraft carrier.
DK: Right. Ok.
HM: Somewhere out east.
DK: Right.
HM: And as soon as war broke out and he asked to be remustered.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: And then he came back to England. Then he went out Canada for his pilot’s training. Did his training in various aeroplanes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Then he came back to England and then finished up.
DK: At the OTU.
HM: Yeah. The OTU.
DK: So that was Sergeant Crawford then.
HM: Sergeant Crawford.
DK: And was he a good pilot?
HM: He was. Yes.
DK: Yeah. You felt confident then with him did you?
HM: I felt very confident with him. Something else. I wish I’d made more comments.
DK: Yeah.
HM: About what went on.
DK: So how —
HM: On one of the [pause] No. It’s not there. On one of the flights, it was a night time flights everything was going all right. Taxied round, end of the runway. Started taking off. Just got off the ground and he had to close one of the engines down. There was something overheating or something and Mayday. Mayday. And he just flew around and landed again on one engine. So he must have been a reasonable pilot.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: That was a bit scary. You didn’t know whether the aeroplane would fly with the one engine or not.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But he made a very good job of it.
DK: Yeah. So you felt quite confident with him after that.
HM: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
DK: So did you have a conversation with him about what had happened to the engines, do you know or did you just —
HM: Well, it wouldn’t mean a thing to me.
DK: Right.
HM: It was a runaway prop.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I didn’t know what a runaway prop was. I still don’t.
DK: So after, how did you feel then about having to do the training twice? And have to go back again.
HM: Not very happy because it —
DK: No.
HM: The crewing up with [Runji] then having to go through it again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: That was annoying. But once we got —
DK: Crawford.
HM: Our pilot. Crawford. We were quite happy. We’d got a, we’d got a crew. We got on very well together.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And that’s the one on the, on the picture there.
DK: Ok. So just for the recording then just looking at your logbook then it says here you then went on to 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit.
HM: Yeah. That’s when we converted to the Lancaster.
DK: Right.
HM: And that was at —
DK: Langar.
HM: Pardon?
DK: Langar.
HM: Langar.
DK: Langar.
HM: Yes. Up in Nottinghamshire I believe it is.
DK: So that was at the Heavy Conversion Unit then and we’re talking February 1945. Is that? Or was it ’44?
HM: February. Oh it might have been.
DK: Yeah. Because that’s ’44.
HM: I joined the squadron in early March.
DK: Right. So the Heavy Conversion Unit then would be February.
HM: Langar, yeah. That was converting to the four engines.
DK: Right. So how did you feel? That was the first time you saw the Lancaster then was it? Close up.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And what did you think?
HM: Oh, we’re going up in those [laughs] How does it stay up there? But —
DK: So was it quite a change after the Wellington then?
HM: Yes. Because the Wellington, two engines it was a smaller aircraft. You think fine. But when you get to the size of a Lancaster. And in the Wellington you did evasive action.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But it’s hard doing evasive action in the Lancaster. A big aeroplane doing acrobatics. You wondered how it’s going to go but it went very well.
DK: Yeah. So you felt quite confident in flying in those.
HM: Yeah.
DK: I see here you flew as the mid-upper gunner.
HM: Yeah.
DK: What was that like then? What were the views like?
HM: Oh, the views was fantastic. I would say you could look all around.
DK: Yeah. And presumably it’s here that you got the extra crew because there’s more crew in a Lancaster than the Wellington.
HM: No. We still had the full crew.
DK: Oh right. In Wellingtons.
HM: We just had the same crew in the Lancaster as we had in the Wellington.
DK: Oh ok. So that was, that was just training then on the Lancaster just to get —
HM: Just training on the Lancaster
DK: Yeah. Yeah
HM: And getting used to it.
DK: Yeah.
HM: How to evacuate quickly and that sort of thing [laughs]
DK: Right. And then it’s got, looking at your logbook here we’ve then got March 1945 you’ve got to 138 Squadron.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So can you say a little bit about 138 Squadron? What they were?
HM: 138 Squadron is a mysterious squadron. As I say it was a Special Operations Unit before I joined. They were flying Lancasters. Before we joined they were basically Halifaxes.
DK: Right.
HM: And Lysanders. Their job was to take ammunition and food to the Resistance. So instead of going out in a bomber stream.
DK: Yeah.
HM: They’d go out in a single Lancaster to a field somewhere in France and drop the supplies to the Resistance.
DK: Oh right.
HM: Or the Auster. That was the single engined. Do you know the Auster?
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
HM: Yeah. Fixed undercarriage. Single engine. If there was a special agent wanting to be picked up and brought back to England then they’d use the Auster.
DK: Right.
HM: Then again find somewhere. Find a field somewhere in France. Land. You’d probably drop an agent. Pick another agent up.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Pick one coming back then take off and bring them home.
DK: Right.
HM: Most of it was at night. Well, it was all night time. The nickname for 138 Squadron at the time was The Moonlight. Moonlight squadron.
DK: Right.
HM: Or Tempsford Taxis. Obviously they were based at Tempsford.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: And with the taxiing service in and out to France or Germany whatever. You got the taxi then.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But when, when I joined it was decided that they were not, it was after D-Day, that it was no longer needed because they take the agents in on the ground from there.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So they reverted to Bomber Command.
DK: Right.
HM: And that’s when I joined them.
DK: So by that point it was an ordinary bomber squadron.
HM: It was an ordinary bomber squadron. Yes. Whereas before, reading about it now when I, in the bomber squadron all the crews went to the briefing. With that there was just a pilot, navigator and bomb aimer.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Only those that need know knew where they were going and what they were doing.
DK: Right.
HM: So the air gunner would go along. Not knowing where they were going. They might discuss it amongst themselves.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But they weren’t supposed to. Go out and come back again but they weren’t allowed to discuss it with another aircrew.
DK: Right.
HM: Missions were never discussed between aircrews.
DK: So —
HM: It was very secretive.
DK: Yeah. So what, what then is kind of your role as an air gunner? What are you supposed to do?
HM: Yeah.
DK: On an operation.
HM: On an operation you just sit there in the turret scanning, looking for any enemy aircraft. Which I never saw.
DK: No.
HM: Never fired my guns in anger.
DK: Right. You’d have tested the guns presumably on the way over did you?
HM: You could do but we never did.
DK: Right.
HM: Well, we didn’t.
DK: Is that, I notice when you joined the squadron you’d gone on some training trips. One with an H2S radar.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And another one with GH bombing. Was that the GH bombing on?
HM: Yeah. That, that is basically for the navigators. Navigators —
DK: Yeah.
HM: GHS or HS2 and the Gee were all navigational aids.
DK: Right. And you’ve got something here. Just special training. You can’t remember what the special training was can you?
HM: Special training.
DK: Bit mysterious. Maybe you can’t tell me.
HM: I haven’t a clue.
DK: Ok. So looking at your logbook again then it’s got your first operation here was to Kiel.
HM: Yes.
DK: So what was it like then when you finally —
HM: Kiel?
DK: Got an operation?
HM: Well, it’s exciting. We hadn’t been in long enough. We hadn’t experienced a bombing raid. We didn’t know what to expect. I was excited. And well, we flew out. Nothing, nothing untoward happened.
DK: Yeah.
HM: There were searchlights and the flak but you expected that.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve gone out as the mid-upper gunner on this raid.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And can you remember seeing much of the target itself when you were over Kiel?
HM: Yes.
DK: What was that like?
HM: Basically if that’s Kiel you flew across, it’s like, where Germany and Denmark. It’s —
DK: The border.
HM: What do they call it?
Other: Jutland?
HM: The prominence of Denmark.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: A strip of land.
HM: There’s a border it goes across.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Well, we flew across the part of Germany which was close to the border with Denmark. And as you’re flying along you could, you could see the fire, ‘That’s it. That’s it.’
DK: Yeah.
HM: That must be the target.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Now, yes. And no. That’s not it. And we were flying along and the navigator made a mistake or something. We flew past the target. When navigator realised that he’d gone wrong we had to do a loop.
DK: Right.
HM: The pilot wouldn’t turn around and go that way because he’d be joining the bomber stream. He’d be flying against them.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So he went around that way and joined the stream again.
DK: Right. So you went over the target.
HM: So we then flew towards the target.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Bombs away. Let’s go home.
DK: Could, when the bombs were dropped did you notice any turbulence or whatever.
HM: Oh yeah.
DK: You were flying up.
HM: The result was that bit of lift.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve come back from your first operation then though it hadn’t gone according to plan.
HM: Yeah.
DK: How did you feel when you got back?
HM: Oh, it’s hard to remember [pause] We just thought well that’s that.
DK: Yeah.
HM: That’s it.
DK: Job done.
HM: That’s done. The job done.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Wait for the next.
DK: And did you have to go along to a debriefing, or anything? Were you debriefed?
HM: Yes. When you landed you went to debrief. And the intelligence office, officers there. The crew was all there. What was your experience? Did you notice anything? Did you? How did it go? Or as I say we’d no experience. Just a, just a normal flight. Just flak.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: Just searchlights. But nothing affected us.
DK: Yeah.
HM: It was all going on around you but —
DK: So your aircraft was never hit by flak then.
HM: Not that particular time. It was later on.
DK: Oh, ok. Ok.
HM: That was on the [pause] about a few days later we went again to Kiel.
DK: Right. I’m just looking at the logbook here. This is —
HM: Yeah.
DK: Just for the recording. You’ve gone to Kiel on the 9th of April.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And it’s
HM: That was our first one.
DK: And you’ve actually got here the German ship the Admiral Scheer sank.
HM: Oh, that was the second.
DK: Was that the second one?
HM: That was on the second one.
DK: Ok.
HM: No. There’s two there. And the Admiral Scheer was sank the second. That’s why we went back a second time.
DK: Right. And did you see the battleship down there?
HM: No.
DK: No.
HM: No. We were too high.
DK: Yeah. So you did, let’s say Kiel on the 9th of April. Then the 13th of April Kiel again.
HM: Yes. That was when the Admiral Scheer was sunk.
DK: Right. And then 14th of April you’ve then gone to Potsdam.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah. The following night. We thought that was a bit rough is that. Two. One after the other.
DK: Yeah. And then —
HM: But then thinking about it ‘43 and ‘44 when the bombing was really going, they’d be doing that every week. Three or four times a week they’d be flying.
DK: Yeah. And then looking at your logbook again you’ve then done a daylight raid because it’s in green.
HM: Yes. Heligoland. Heligoland.
DK: Heligoland. So that was on the 18th of April.
HM: Yeah.
DK: ‘45.
HM: That was [laughs] A bit of a dead duck.
DK: Right.
HM: Heligoland, I don’t even know where it is. It’s just, as I say Denmark land. Germany. And it’s just a little island.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Evidently, it was a naval spotting station and spotting transport where our ships were.
DK: Right.
HM: And there again, there was a little bit of flak. There wasn’t a lot.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Because it was such a small island. No searchlights evidently because it was daylight.
DK: Yeah. Could you see a lot more of the other aircraft then in daylight? What was the —
HM: Yeah. You could see them around you.
DK: Yeah. But presumably you couldn’t see them at night time.
HM: At night time you couldn’t.
DK: No.
HM: I did once.
DK: Right.
HM: Then again I should have made a note of it. At Heligoland you could see the torpedo boats feeding away out from the island. The island was just one cloud of bomb bursts.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: You couldn’t see much of the land for the smoke and debris from the bombs.
DK: So that was hit quite hard then.
HM: Pardon?
DK: It was hit quite hard was it?
HM: Yeah.
DK: You say you saw an aircraft at night.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Was that quite nearby?
HM: That was a night flight. There again I don’t know which flight it was.
DK: No.
HM: Because I never made a note of it. I was in the mid-upper gun, mid-upper turret and suddenly there was this shadow went up. We were going and it went up in front of us.
DK: Right.
HM: I recognised it as a Lancaster. At night time. No lights. No nothing but there was this shadow went up in front of us.
DK: Right.
HM: If it had gone up a minute or two later or we’d been a minute or two earlier we’d have —
DK: Collided.
HM: Real come to.
DK: Was that, was that a bit of a frightening thing to see then was it?
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: He was doing evasive action. I don’t see why they should do it at night.
DK: Right.
HM: Because you’ve got, I don’t know how many aircraft were on that raid but if you could have five or six hundred or the thousand bomber raid going over the target for some time. Granted the aircraft are stacked and the first ones would be higher, the ones behind them should be a bit lower.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But you’ve always got that creep. Someone’s got there a bit early. Some had got there a bit late. So there’s bound to be some mix up.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And if you start weaving about in a stream of aircraft. He, he couldn’t see any other aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
HM: All he is doing is just hoping for the best. His gunner must have seen something and told the pilot to corkscrew. But that was it.
DK: Yeah. Could have been, could have ended a bit disastrously couldn’t it?
HM: It could have done.
DK: So after that you’ve then done on the 22nd of April ‘45 a daylight raid to Bremen. Do you remember going to Bremen?
HM: Yes.
DK: And you’ve got here in brackets flak holes. Is that when you’ve been hit?
HM: Came back with some holes in it. Yeah.
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So what was that like then? When your aircraft was hit?
HM: Well it, quite normal. There’s plenty of flak, plenty of [pause] plenty going on and suddenly and there’s click click. ‘Has somebody dropped something?’ [laughs] No answer from the crew. Just as though you were driving along and somebody threw a stone at you.
DK: Yeah
HM: Or there was a mob throwing stones at you. But fortunately nothing, nothing was hit that was vital.
DK: Yeah.
HM: None of On the controls or oil pipes. It was just a hole in the fuselage.
DK: Right. Right. Was that anywhere near you? The hole in the fuselage or—
HM: I think it was actually by the bomb bay.
DK: Oh right. So almost underneath you then.
HM: Well, near. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Just forward of the mid-upper gunner.
DK: So, so then you’ve got one more raid. What does that say? Operation the Hague. You see that one there. It’s a daylight one again. It’s a [unclear] one.
HM: Oh yes. Holland was starving.
DK: Right.
HM: They were all, they wanted some food. Somehow they made communication with the Germans. We could go in and drop food in Holland as long as we drove on a, or flew on a specific line.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Course. At a certain height. They’d let us go in and drop food and nobody would fire at us. Hopefully [laughs]
DK: So this this —
HM: So that was dropping food at the Hague. Holland.
DK: Oh right. Right. It is the Hague then. So that’s what became known as Operation Manna then.
HM: Operation Manna.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: We did that a couple of times I think.
DK: So that to the Hague then was the 3rd of May. And then you’ve got another one. Operation Manna on the 8th of May.
HM: Yeah.
DK: It looks like you’ve done two trips there.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Right. So could you see the people on the ground as you were dropping the food?
HM: Oh yeah. Yeah. You could see them walking about. There were civilians waving.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Looking up at you.
DK: So how did you feel about that then? Dropping the food after dropping bombs. It was it a bit different.
HM: Well, it felt a bit strange really seeing the Germans down there walking about [laughs] and you’re flying.
DK: So you could actually see the Germans down below as well.
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So you were very low level then.
HM: Yeah. I think it was about a thousand feet.
DK: Right.
HM: Something like that. And then there was after that there’s Exodus.
DK: Yeah. Operation Exodus. So what was Operation Exodus like?
HM: That was bringing prisoners of war back.
DK: Right.
HM: We flew out. We flew to a base at Juvencourt in France. Picked up I think it was about twenty. Twenty ex-prisoners of war.
DK: Right.
HM: The sat around in the fuselage. We’d land. They’d come and climb in and find themselves a perch. Then we’d fly back again.
DK: Right. So how many of those trips did you do?
HM: About four or five I think.
DK: Right. And did you speak to the ex-POWs? Were they —
HM: Well, what we’d called, I mean to say you didn’t get much chance because you was in the turret. As soon as you landed it was basically loading them on
DK: Right
HM: And then taking off and coming home again.
DK: Right.
DK: So they were quite relieved to be going home were they?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. Had some of them been a prisoners for a length of time do you know?
HM: I would imagine so. I’ve no idea. Like I said, we didn’t really get a chance to speak to them. Then again when you’re flying you can’t have a conversation.
DK: No.
HM: Because of the noise.
DK: Yeah.
HM: We could be this close. I could shout at you and not tell what I was saying unless you were watching me and could do a bit of lip reading.
DK: No. Just going back to that what were the conditions like then as a mid-upper gunner? Presumably you’re were very cold up there.
HM: It was cold. Yeah.
DK: What were you wearing?
HM: Well, you were wearing your normal clothes. In fact you got issued with some special underwear. Long johns and long sleeves.
DK: Yeah.
HM: There was a mixture of wool and silk. Climbed in to that and then your normal uniform on top of that, and then you’d have a padded, padded overalls thing on
DK: Right
HM: Like a boiler suit done up the front. And then you got your overall. The one that you see us wearing on some of the pictures I think. It’s just sort of a canvas flying suit.
DK: Right. So, so altogether then you flew well one, two, three, four, five. Five. Five operations.
HM: Five. Five operations. Yes.
DK: And then a couple of Manna trips and the Exodus trips.
HM: Yeah. Well, they weren’t counted as operations.
DK: No. No.
HM: The five as you go along. That would have been counted towards you —
DK: The tour.
HM: Tour.
DK: Yes. And that would have still been thirty if the war had gone on.
HM: Oh, it would have been thirty.
DK: So how did you feel then as the war’s ended? Were you quite relieved at that point?
HM: Yeah. I suppose we were.
DK: Yeah. And did —
HM: The airfield just, just erupted. I don’t know where they came from but there were verey pistols firing off all over the place.
DK: And just go back a bit. Did you meet any of your crew off duty at all? Did you get to know them?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So what did you do?
HM: Yeah.
DK: On your off duty time.
HM: We’d usually go along to the local pub. You get to know the locals.
DK: Yeah. And, and did you keep in touch with the rest of the crew after the war?
HM: No. We didn’t.
DK: No. No. So you’ve all gone your separate ways then.
HM: We all went our separate ways.
DK: You haven’t been in touch with them since.
HM: No.
DK: No.
HM: When I got married the wireless operator, I sent invites to them all but there was only the wireless operator turned up.
DK: Right. So —
HM: I heard later Howard, he’s always on the internet looking at things. Our pilot evidently emigrated to Canada.
DK: Right.
HM: And there was an obit. I’m presuming it was our pilot. There’s an obituary to a Flying Officer Crawford who had died in a nursing home. He was a bit older than we were. I think he was about twenty eight, twenty nine.
DK: Yeah.
HM: When we was only, I was nineteen.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So he was an old man.
DK: Yeah [laughs]
HM: Evidently this pilot officer Andrew Robertson Crawford had died in this nursing home in Toronto.
DK: Oh right.
HM: Who’d emigrated from England after flying with the RAF. That’s all that’s all there was it.
DK: Sounds like it would probably be him them.
HM: And a bit of what he’d done in Canada. He’d gone to college and qualified as some sort of engineer.
DK: Right.
HM: Although he was qualified with the RAF as an aero engineer.
DK: Yeah.
HM: He’d qualified as something else over there.
DK: So presumably you left the RAF quite soon afterwards then did you?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: When I came home on leave I used to visit the place where I worked beforehand. The garment cutter.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: And one time I went the boss asked me, ‘Would you like to come out?’ I’d just met the wife then, or girlfriend and I said yes. He said, ‘I’ll try and see what I can do.’ Of course, if you’d got a job to go to and the boss enquired can you come home you were allowed early release.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: So within about a week of that, seeing the boss and him saying yes I was on my way home. Demobbed.
DK: Wow. So it happened quite quickly then.
HM: Oh, it did.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yes.
DK: Quite, quite unusual from some of the people I’ve spoken to. Hanging on for months before they got demobbed.
HM: If you, if you got a job to go to I believe it could be, could be done.
DK: Oh, ok. Ok.
HM: And evidently he wanted me back so —
DK: So, so how do you after all these years how do you look back on your time in the RAF? How do you feel now about it?
HM: Quite happy about it. I thought it was [pause] I thought it was a good spell.
DK: Yeah.
HM: It’s an experience you couldn’t have anywhere else. Yeah. It was quite, I found it quite a good experience.
DK: Yeah. You found it useful in later life then did you? Sort of that experience.
HM: Not really [laughs]
DK: Oh [laughs] Ok. I’ve just got your photo here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: I wonder if, are you still able to name, name the crew? So that’s, that’s to the recording here that’s a Lancaster of 138 Squadron.
HM: That’s a Lancaster of 138 Squadron.
DK: And that’s the one you flew on operations.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So do you know, can you name them all here?
HM: Yes. There’s —
DK: So that’s, that’s the ground crew presumably at the front there.
HM: That’s the ground crew. I can’t remember their names.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: That’s Ted Bramsgrove. He was the navigator. Then there’s me. Then there’s Tom Kelsall, he was the engineer. That was the pilot, Flying officer Crawford.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Eric Scott. He was the bomb aimer. Oh, what’s his first? Fry was his surname. He was the wireless operator. And Duncan MacGregor he was the other gunner.
DK: So he would normally be in the rear gun turret would he?
HM: Yeah.
DK: For the most part. Though you did swap over didn’t you, at times?
HM: We did swap over. Yeah.
DK: So they were a good crew then were they?
HM: They were. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: Yes. He was a farmer. He was a school teacher. He was a shop assistant. I don’t know what Mac was.
DK: So quite varied.
HM: He was Irish. He’d come from Northern Ireland.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Belfast.
DK: So quite a varied background then.
HM: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah. And that’s your ground crew there.
HM: That’s the ground crew.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Which looked after the aircraft.
DK: So did you have much to do with the ground crew at all? Or —
HM: Not a lot. No.
DK: No. You just wanted to make sure the aircraft was ok.
HM: You’d chat to them when you went out to dispersal to climb in.
DK: So that’s you there then. Second from the end.
HM: Yeah. Second on the left.
DK: Second on the left. Ok then, that’s —
HM: I’m thinking you must, I think Howard had that.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And he asked me what all the names were.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I think he sent that.
DK: Yes. If he hasn’t I’ll make sure he does.
HM: Yeah.
DK: That’s a great photo that. Ok then. I think that will do. I’ll, but thanks for that. I’ll turn off. Turn this off now. Thanks for your time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Henry Moss
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMossH181114, PMossH1801
Format
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00:55:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Henry grew up in Bradford and left school just before the outbreak of war. He had various jobs like working in the mill, a greengrocer’s shop, the dye works and then garment cutting for the army. At 17 and a half was called up in London where he was kitted out and had the necessary inoculations. He had been in the Air Training Corps so chose to apply for the Royal Air Force. He was told he could be a wireless operator air gunner, trained in Morse code and learned about the .303 Browning. The recruits were sent to RAF Pembrey in South Wales for gunnery training where they worked on Martinets and Ansons. They then went to 26 Operation Training Unit to crew up and fly on Wellingtons. Henry spent time at 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit in Nottinghamshire to train on Lancasters as mid-upper gunner. He was posted to 138 Squadron which was a special operations unit working on Halifaxes and Lysanders aircraft dropping supplies to the resistance. They also dropped off or picked up agents in France. Their first two operations were to Kiel. Henry recalled a daylight operation to Bremen in 1945 when they suffered a hole in the fuselage from anti-aircraft fire. During the war they did five operations in all, plus trips for Operation Manna and Exodus. The crew did not keep in touch after the war. When Henry was demobbed he went back to work for the army garment firm.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Bradford
England--London
Wales--Carmarthenshire
France
Germany
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Kiel
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
138 Squadron
1669 HCU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lysander
Martinet
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Langar
RAF Pembrey
RAF Tempsford
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/749/10748/ACookJ150709.2.mp3
e546cf9f2a3e4cbc2c2ae8d537348675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cook, Jack
J Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Cook (- 2023, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 100 and 104 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cook, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: David Kavannagh interviewing Jack Cook for the International Bomber Command Centre 9th of July 2015. They’ll edit this at some point so don’t worry about a thing. So, if I could just ask you your background. Where you came from from before the war? What you were doing?
JC: I was born, I was born a few miles from Doncaster. A small market town called Mexborough. Actually, it’s between Rotherham and Doncaster. And at eighteen years of age, which was August the 20th 1943 I volunteered for aircrew. All aircrew were volunteers. A lot of people don’t realise that.
DK: So just before that. Had you come straight from school?
JC: No.
DK: Oh.
JC: No. I left school at fourteen and I worked in a [pause] what can I call it? Well, actually they were pawnbrokers but they were outfitters. Gent’s outfitters. They sold everything kind of thing. Until I was sixteen I worked there and then I went on the footplate which was the old LNER. I worked, I worked there. I worked there until I was eighteen and then I joined the RAF. I went to the attestation board at Doncaster and I wanted to become a rear gunner. But after the interview there was a squadron leader said to me, ‘Would you like to become a wireless operator/air gunner instead of just the air gunner.’ I said, ‘Well I don’t know the Morse code and I know nothing about wireless or anything like that.’ ‘Well,’ he says, ‘You’ve came out very well out in the attestation board.’ He said, ‘Would you like to?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll have a go.’ So that’s it. That’s how I became training for a wireless op. And anyhow the course was a lot longer, the gunner’s course because I only arrived at the squadron a fortnight before the, or three weeks before the war finished. So actually I didn’t take part in any actively dropping bombs at all. I should imagine I was one of the youngest at that time of the war because I was only nineteen when we did a drop the food to the Dutch in Operation Manna.
DK: So you were nineteen in 1945.
JC: Yeah. I was. I was twenty in ‘45. But I was only nineteen actually when the drop took place in the April. And in [pause] we were on standby for the last raid of the war. Berchtesgaden, which was Hitler’s hide out up in the mountains. We used to call it his retreat. But we weren’t required because I expect we were just on standby if somebody fell sick you know and they put another crew in. Which they did.
DK: So which squadron was this?
JC: This was 100 Squadron at Elsham Wolds, Lincolnshire. And, and then in February 1946 we took the Lancaster. Oh just prior to that we were all in the briefing room and a squadron leader stood up and said, ‘There are quite a number of crews that are here today. Well,’ he says, ‘Three. We want three. Three crews. And it’s for being out in the Middle East. Taking the Lancs out to a place called Abu Sueir, not far from Cairo.’ And he said, ‘You’ll be there until your date of mobilisation is finished.’ So one lad, he said, ’ And what happens if we refuse to go?’ So he said, ‘Well, you’ll be up for mutiny.’ And Jack’s hand went up, I said, ‘When do we go sir?’ [laughs] Anyhow, we took the Lancs out there to Abu Sueir and it was a peacetime airfield that. And we were only there for a few weeks when we had to move down to Shallufa, in the Canal Zone. Right at the bottom near Suez. And that would be about the March of ’46 and I was there until ’47. The squadron, oh this would have been when this was when on 104 Squadron was formed out there. 104 Squadron. And we disbanded and I, the wireless ops at that stage, there was only one group every three months going, get back to England. Which, I was out there quite a while. We lost all the gunners. They didn’t want those. They didn’t want the bomb aimers. They went. And I finished up on Ansons. VIP run. And, and what’s the other thing. VIPs runs and mail runs. All over the Middle East we went in the, in the Ansons. And then my time for demob came up and I knew they’d made a mistake with my group. I knew I was 57 group and they’d got it down as 56. We were already packed up to go to the old transit camp waiting for a boat home. And we had prisoners of war in the mess. Damned good they were as well. Mind you they, they were very helpful. They couldn’t do, you know they were prisoners of war but they were damned good. And one of them came because our billets weren’t far from the, from the sergeant’s mess. Well, they spoke good English the three of them that were there. We weren’t a flight in the mess. A telephone. A telephone? I’ll bet they’ve found out the mistake they’d made. Anyhow, I went there and it was a squadron leader, somewhere from group there. He said, ‘I understand that your waiting to go.’ I expect the sergeant in charge of the mess had told him that I was waiting because he was a big friend, a big pal of mine. And he said, ‘I’m awfully sorry,’ he says, ‘But there’s been a mistake been made with your release group number.’ ‘Never,’ I said [laughs] so he said, ‘Yeah, but,’ he said, ‘I’ll promise you this though. Instead of when your time comes up in about three months’ time that you won’t be going with transport. You’ll be flying home.’ I thought ‘Yeah. I know.’ But he kept to his word and I was packed up again waiting for the garrie to take me to the transit where we had to wait until we got a boat. One of the Jerries came across and said, ‘You’re wanted on the phone. It’s someone from Group the sergeant says.’ So, anyhow I went there and yeah, ‘Well,’ he said ‘I’ve kept my promise,’ he said, ‘And there’s an aircraft coming. A Lancaster coming down from Palestine tomorrow.’ He said, ‘Are you ok for going on it?’ Well, I thought, well I thought to myself I’ve never been on a ship kind of that because we flew out there and he said, ‘I can’t wait much longer. The flight. I’m very very busy.’ I said, ‘Yeah’ I said, ‘Ok. I’ll take it.’ ‘Oh by the way,’ he says, ‘You’ll have to work your own way home.’ He says, ‘The wireless operator will be getting out and you’ll be getting in.’ And I was demobbed in forty eight hours. Amazing.
DK: So where did you come back in the UK?
JC: I came back to — where we landed the aircraft?
DK: Yeah. Where did you land?
JC: Silloth. Carlisle.
DK: Right. Ok.
JC: That was there, I don’t know whether it’s still going or not. And then I was dropped down there. Then I got a pass to Kirkham, Blackpool way, where I was demobbed. And then I was back. And when I — I forget how much leave I had to come but I went back on the footplate until 1961. And my wife had been in hospital. She’d had, for seven years she’d had mastoid operations all over the place and she went convalescing to Bridlington. And she was, she was a sister at Mexborough Hospital then. Where we lived of course. And she went there for a fortnight and towards the end of the fortnight the matron got on the phone. The matron at the convalescent home phoned me up and said, ‘I know all about your Jack.’ She said, ‘Connie’s been very, very helpful here. Although she’s convalescing she’s been doing a lot of help,’ she said, and my sister — that’s her sister, the matron’s sister, who was the assistant matron was leaving there to get married. And she said, ‘Would you come and take her place, Connie.’ So, Connie said, ‘Well, what about Jack?’ And she said, ‘Oh I’ll get him a job here,’ she said. Which eventually she did and I was manager of a fancy goods shop. A large one. One, two, three, four — about nine large windows. And I had a staff of eleven or twelve girls during the busy — only for about three or four months but I used to keep two of them on, the best two, all the years that I were there. And, you know they kept the shop clean and it was [pause] And then one day I was talking to the wife and we had two kiddies at this time then. In 1961 one would be, one would be still a baby in the pram. The other was four year old because there was four years difference. And I went for an interview at Sheffield because the shop was called Spalls and they had various. There’s one in Leicester. A Spalls in Leicester. The same family. There was this chap at Sheffield — he was in charge of the five northern branches. And I got the job and went to, and that’s how we came to Brid. Now this would be 19 no we hadn’t any kids then. No children then. ’51 we were married. I lost my wife seventeen years ago by the way, she was seventy three. ’61. ’51 I was married. ’51. So it would be fifty, fifty [pause]now you see how when you get old how you —
DK: I have trouble with dates [laughs] yeah. Late 50s.
JC: Yeah but it would be probably ’57.
DK: Right.
JC: Probably ’57 when we went to Brid. That would be it. No. No. No. I’m wrong on dates because my eldest lad was born in ’57 and the youngest one was born in ’61. He only lives at Bourne.
DK: Oh right.
JC: I think he knows — Is it Sue? She works at —
DK: Yes. Yes.
JC: I think she lives at Bourne.
DK: Yes she does. Yeah.
JC: And he’s the manager of the large estate there.
DK: Oh right.
JC: He’s three or four staff. That’s all, it’s not. And it’s a very, very good job. They started him at thirty thousand a couple of years back. He worked for Vodaphone.
DK: Yeah.
JC: For a few years. Because he did twenty five years in the RAF. And his wife, his wife — let’s see. She works at [pause] well it used to be RAF Cottesmore.
DK: Right. Yes.
JC: Where Maurice used to be as an engineer.
DK: Yeah. It’s the army, it’s the army barracks now isn’t it?
JC: It’s army barracks now. That’s it. Well she’s in the medical department there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Now then where have we got to now?
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
JC: Yeah.
DK: If I could just take you back to the Manna drops. How many Manna food drops did you actually do?
JC: I did two.
DK: Two.
JC: Yeah. At the racecourse. Both at the racecourse.
DK: Right.
JC: But Bill Birch mentioned it, that it was The Hague but I’m sure it was this, this racecourse where we dropped was at Rotterdam. But there again I might be wrong again. Or Bill could be wrong.
DK: Do you remember much about the reaction of the people on the ground?
JC: Oh yeah. Well it’s hard to be — you see we were flying at four or five hundred feet and they were stood on buildings and waving flags. Anything that they was picking up they were waving. And as I mentioned there we were that low I saw a couple of Jerries, of course, they’d be short of food as well. And they’d got their helmets off and were waving them on top, on the top of the buildings them as plain as — I can see them now. Yeah. And what else can I say about — well very little. Although we were very, we were low down and as I mentioned just a while ago that everywhere you could see water. Because with Montgomery coming up from the south the Germans blew the dykes up and flooded the whole area. So as soon as we were over the course kind of thing that was it. There was water behind us that we flew over and water in front of us. And then of course we did the drop.
DK: And perhaps if I could take you back just a stage further. After your training as a wireless operator did you go straight into the squadron or was there any —?
JC: No. What happened —?
DK: Was there a Conversion Unit you went to?
JC: No. What happened, what happens was you meet you meet your crew. You’re all in the mess and there were pilots and navigators. The whole lot you know. The crew members. Crews. And then you’re picked. You’re talking to one another. And my skipper he was a W/O to start with and they all got commissioned there later on as P/O’s. And I think he’d got the bomb aimer who did his training in Canada. He married a girl in Canada and they moved. They’re in America now. I hear from his quite regular. But I lost my mid-upper gunner two years ago. And they called him Chaplin. Warrant Officer Chaplin. His name was Dickie but we, Dickie Chaplin but of course he got Charlie. Charlie Chaplin you see. And he said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘I want,’ you know, talking, he said, ‘Right I’m looking for a wireless op. Anybody interested?’ ‘Yeah. ‘Yeah.’ I put my hand up. ‘Come on, let’s have a look at you.’ You know, that’s how we got a crew in five or ten minutes.
DK: Do you think, do you think that worked well because you basically made up your own crews? You weren’t ordered in to a crew. You just —
JC: Oh no. They didn’t force you in. That’s how you, that’s how you met your family.
DK: And do you think that way worked well?
JC: Oh yeah. I should imagine there couldn’t have been a better way actually.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual in, sort of the armed forces to be able to do something like that by yourself [unclear]
JC: Yeah. It was far better than.
DK: Being ordered.
JC: You were in this group. You were going to. Yeah. Yeah. Far better. And you mixed together straightaway. And the comradeship. It’s hard to believe.
DK: So how —
JC: And actually had I, had I been a rear gunner or mid-upper gunner I’d have been on the squadron six or eight months before but it was such a long course at — well I did at Market Harborough. I did OTU at Market Harborough which is only about twenty five miles from here.
DK: So you were you at the OTU before joining the crew or —
JC: No. That’s where we, that’s where we met the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So that was where, which OTU?
JC: I think it was 14. I think I’ve got, I’ve got, I’ll just get my, I’ll just get my logbook down. Thank you.
DK: Ok.
JC: And then I’ve got dates in where I — can you manage? Can you manage?
DK: That’s ok.
[pause]
JC: The only thing wrong with this place. There isn’t enough room David.
[pause]
JC: I think it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: It’s like going into Fort Knox is this [laughs]
[pause]
JC: Oh it works. I haven’t forgotten the number. It’s ages since I —
[pause]
DK: Are you ok now?
JC: Yeah. Thank you. These are the aircraft I flew in.
DK: Are they?
JC: Domini, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Lancaster, Dakota as a passenger, Liberator as a passenger and a Boa Carlton as a passenger.
DK: Yeah.
JC: When we went out to India and did a few, three weeks in India. Right. Number 1 Radio School February ’44. What happened before that? Oh I was at ITW. Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
JC: Then Radio School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. Number 6 Advanced Flying Unit. Staverton, Gloucester. There’s the dates. 14 OTU Market Harborough October ’44 to February ’45. Then to 1156 Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, Doncaster. Then to 100 Squadron. You see March ’45 so the war was nearly over wasn’t it? So I was, I was still only nineteen then. I wasn’t twenty until the August. Then 16 Ferry Unit Dunkeswell in Devon where we flew the Lancs out to the, out to the Middle East. Then 104 Squadron there. At Abu Sueir. Middle East Forces. April until July’46 squadron moved to Shallufa. That’s at the Canal Zone. Squadron disbanded 31st of March ’47. Then MENME ferry unit and MENME Comm Squadron and then demobbed in September ’47. Now, this logbook isn’t the original one. When we were at Dunkeswell to fly out to the Middle East once a month all the flying logbooks had to be signed by the CO. Wherever you were. And there were all in the flight office kind of thing and there was a fire. And the only thing [pause] of all the things were burned down although the actual number of hours were in and that’s what we had to do there. Now that [pause] number 16TH RAF Ferry Unit, RAF Dunkeswell. Number one logbook destroyed by fire January ’46. And we got that we had to put the number of flying hours in and then he’s checked it and signed it.
DK: And that’s taken from the burnt one.
JC: That was taken from the burnt one.
DK: That’s —
JC: And it was all checked. It was checked by the squadron leader.
DK: That a real shame it was burnt and lost.
JC: It is.
DK: That’s a shame.
JC: It is. Yeah.
DK: So, that only shows from ’46 onwards.
JC: This actually shows from, this shows from 11th of December ’45. Collection at Silloth. That’s Carlisle and —
DK: In a Lancaster.
JC: That was Lancs yeah.
DK: All Lancasters.
JC: Yeah. That was it. Lancasters. And each one, the logbook is signed by the squadron leader or somebody for the — yes it was a flying officer then. Charlie, Charlie Chaplin. And you know there’s all trips. Bombing. Greece, Italy. We had some good runs. [unclear] Pomigliano, that’s Naples. Bari’s on the east coast, way up in Italy. Back to Cairo, away from base. Bombing. Gunnery. Lydda, that’s Palestine. And there’s all kinds of trips, [unclear] Greece. Pomigliano and Cairo. Lydda transport flying. Flying a lot of troop in we did.
DK: Mostly with the Lancaster Mark 7s isn’t it?
JC: That’s a 7. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a book and every Lancaster that was made, manufactured kind of thing and the number of it. I’ve got it. What happened to it?
DK: No idea. Mostly scrapped I would imagine.
JC: Most of them were yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Kasfareet, Campo Formio, Italy again. Almarza. Bombing. Shallufa base. Lydda. Squadron moved from Abu Sueir as I said, down to the Canal Zone.
DK: Quite a few flights.
JC: Yeah. Where are we now? Abu Suier. Nicosia, Cyprus trooping twenty passengers. We’ve got Rome again, Ciampino. Some are quite a number of hours in August. You see a lot of , a lot of people, well all the aircrew when the war was over, the senior NCOs, I don’t know about the officers but they became LACs again. We were only given stripes for if we were shot down and you were treated as senior NCOs prisoners of war. Palestine, Almarza, Lyneham, Luqa, Malta. [unclear] Southern France. Diverted. Twelve passengers. Toulouse. That’s down near Marseille.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Ferry St Mawgan. Abingdon. Transport Luqa, Cairo, Fayid, Palestine. Khartoum. Almarza, Ciampino, Rome. Air sea rescue search — nine hours forty five minutes. That’s the longest.
DK: Do you remember much about that incident?
JC: Oh I do. Yeah.
DK: Was that —
JC: What you’ve got to —
DK: Is it the 21st of November 1946.
JC: What we had to do was do a box search instructions to the pilots like that but we did that and we were unsuccessful. So what he did then — he did [pause] and when we landed he got a real rollicking off the CO. Ten minutes fuel we’d left. He said, ‘Think about your crew.’ Anyhow we got, he apologised did Charlie.
DK: So you never found who was —
JC: No. We never found, never found them. No.
DK: And was, and can you remember was that you were looking for crew from a ship or from another aircraft.
JC: It was an aircraft. It was a York aircraft that came from — it was flying, now then, I don’t know where it had come from and where it was going. That’s beyond me now I just can’t get it. Aden, Khartoum, Eritrea, [unclear] Aden again, Almarza, Rhodes Island, Rhodes. Kalata was the airfield. Nicosia. From Nicosia to Kalata. The, the [pause] now what was he? He was security police. British. Well, a Scotsman actually and he lived in this castle and he invited us. I don’t know how long we were there. Landed the 4th and left on the 7th so we were there for three days. Something like that. And he invited us out, he invited us to his place for dinner. And what an evening. Anyhow, he said when you leave the next day, he said, or this was the following day that we were leaving, he said, ‘Fly down the main street if you will.’ To Charlie he said, ‘And let them know we’ve got an air force.’ And we did. Just over [laughs] just over the house tops. Oh it was amazing.
DK: So that was, that was in Nicosia in Cyprus.
JC: That was, no, that was from, we were in Almarza. We went to Kasfareet.
DK: Which is in Greece.
JC: No. Kasfareeet. That’s in Egypt.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JC: Yes. Kasfareet. Then we went from Nicosia in Cyprus.
DK: So your low fly past was over Egypt.
JC: No. No. It was here at Rhodes. It was Rhodes.
DK: Oh very well. I’m with you.
JC: And then we went from Nicosia to Kalata in Rhodes.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And then we went from Kalata to [unclear] Then then back to Kasfareet.
DK: So your low fly past was over Rhodes.
JC: Over Rhodes.
DK: And this, this one is another date there on the 13th of February ’47 base to Habbabiya in Iraq. Almarza. Kasfareet. Base. Plenty of trips here. Khormaksar, Aden again. Luqa – Palestine. We were in Palestine. We’d not been out in Egypt only a few weeks when Charlie said, ‘Shall we go up to Palestine?’ He says, ‘I’ll get the wing commander flying to see if he’ll put a training trip on, drop us there and then collect us a week later.’ Which he did. And we went up there and that was the ruddy night in Jerusalem that they — I forget now what hotel we were at but that’s when the — was it the Stern Gang?
DK: The Stern Gang, yeah.
JC: Yeah. The Stern. That’s when they attacked. I think they blew the —
DK: The King David Hotel.
JC: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem and murdered a few paratroops that were in tents. Do you remember? Well, you will have read about that.
DK: Yes. I’m know of the incident.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. And he got on the blower the next day, he said, ‘I think you’d better fetch us back,’ and they put a kite on. And then it died down and about six or seven weeks later we went again and we saw all the biblical places. It was marvellous. I mean the places I’ve been. I think before I was, before I was demobbed I think I’d been in to twenty one countries.
DK: Yeah. And you would see these places before the mass tourism.
JC: Oh yeah. Yeah. yeah. It would have cost me thousands to have been. Mind you the only thing is I can remember very little about them. I can remember, I can remember Jerusalem and all the places where, where Jesus stopped with the cross. The twelve stops wherever it was. And the Church of the Nativity where He was supposed to be born.
DK: So what were your duties actually as the wireless operator? Just sort of explain. Sitting there.
JC: Well we used to well the main thing was if you’re going to be aborted somebody’s got to know the plane. That was it.
DK: So the messages were sent to you in Morse code.
JC: Oh yeah. And what other were — and every hour the people back here used to send out, and this was after the war of course ever hour we answered it. I used to get a report from the navigator to say where we were. You know degrees latitude, longitude and all like that. So we were in contact all the time.
DK: So this every hour message you got had to co — be the same as what the navigator said as to your position.
JC: That’s right. Yeah. And I sent it back then you see. Yeah.
DK: Looking back now how do you see your time in the Air Force?
JC: Well if I was in the Air Force again I wouldn’t like to be in this country. I would like to be abroad. That’s for the simple reason that life was easier out there. I mean we never, never did parades out in — unless it was something special. I always remember in this country before we, when we were in training Queen Mary, old Queen Mary, she was visiting the station. And for two or three weeks there was that much bull, you know, on the station. And the morning she came I think we were there a couple of hours before and we were lining all the way up to the officers mess where they were meeting and greeting her. And she went straight past in the car. And there we were. Absolutely soaked we were. We had the old capes on, you know. Oh yeah. Still that’s things like that.
DK: And the bull in the air force you didn’t, you didn’t like. The parades and —
JC: Well, I wouldn’t say I disliked them because they were a necessity because you can’t beat discipline.
DK: No.
JC: I mean our crew — I should imagine we were one of the best crews. Nobody was called Charlie, Dick or Brian or Trevor or Taffy. Not like we did on the ground. It was, ‘Hello skipper. Wireless op here.’ Blah, blah, blah, blah. And rear gunner, you know. A few days after the war we ran what we called Cook’s Tours and we flew the ground staff low over Germany to let them see the damage. And I said to, I went down to the elsan, it was just this forward of the rear gunner, and I said to the rear gunner, I said — I knocked on his and he opened his thing back you see. And I didn’t let anybody hear. I switched the intercom off and I said, ‘Is it going to be ok if I swap seats with you? You come and sit up, you know.’ I said, ‘I’ll ask the skip.’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Yeah.’ So when I got back I got on the intercom and mentioned and he said, ‘Yeah that’s alright.’ And just as I sat down in the rear turret we were going over Cologne Cathedral. Everything was devastated. It was just like St Paul’s when they missed that. Everything was devastated and there was the cathedral not touched. Another act of God. I used to think of it like that. Yeah.
DK: How did that make you feel to seeing the devastated cities?
JC: Oh, well [pause] I looked at it this way. A lot wouldn’t be leaving that strategic bombing that Bomber Harris did but he tried to win the war with bombing and it nearly succeeded. But what did him and he never, he was never made a lord or anything like that which the majority of them were was the Dresden do. They said it shouldn’t have been but it was war and they proved it afterwards. After the war was well over that there were troops there. So that you see, I mean, I mean you look at, you look at the Americans when they dropped the two bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was shocking when you come to think about it but it saved millions of lives after. They’d had enough hadn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JC: They’d had enough when that happened. Yeah.
DK: How many Cook’s Tours did you do over Germany?
JC: I think we went on two days. We only did two trips. Took them over and came back because we weren’t the only squadron that were doing it. There were other squadrons doing it as well. In fact I’ve got some photographs somewhere of the, of the places that the we must have had a photographer, a RAF photographer in our plane because [pause] are you alright for time?
DK: Yeah. I’m fine. Yeah.
JC: I’ll just I’ll just one of my albums. I do believe it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: Ahh here we are. I think it’s in here. Aye it is. Look it’s on the first.
DK: Yes.
JC: That’s the date. That’s it.
DK: So that’s the pilot. Chaplin isn’t it?
JC: 17th of the 7th ’45.
JC: Is that a seven?
DK: I think. It looks like possibly. Yeah.
JC: Yeah. This might interest you. Just to look at. That was one of them.
DK: Yeah.
JC: I think there’s another couple somewhere. Oh there we are. That was Essen. That was Emmerich. And what was this one? Wessel.
DK: Wessel.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. There. Look at the devastation there.
DK: And they’re photos from the Cook’s Tours.
JC: Yeah. Cook’s Tours. That was it. Yeah. They are official photographs there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And these, this is at one of the 100, my squadrons, one of the reunions.
DK: That was Wyton.
JC: October ’85. That’s the year I retired because I retired at sixty. Haven’t a clue where I am there.
DK: 100 Squadron is still going isn’t it?
JC: Oh yes. It’s at Leeming.
DK: Leeming.
JC: I haven’t been this year. I went last year.
DK: Ok. What’s I’ll do, I’ll just stop the recording. Ok. I’ll say thank you for that.
JC: You’re welcome.
DK: Thank you. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Cook
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJ150709
Format
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00:38:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Cook was born in Mexborough. He left school at 14 and went to work at a Gentlemen’s Outfitters. At 16 he worked on the footplate for LNER. At the age of 18 he volunteered for aircrew and trained as a wireless operator/air gunner; joined 100 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds two or three weeks before the end of the war. Consequently, Jack did not take part in bombing but was involved in Operation Manna, doing two drops.
In February 1946 three of the crews took Lancasters to RAF Abu Sueir in Egypt. After a few weeks they moved to RAF Shallufa, in the Canal Zone, when 104 Squadron was formed. Jack finished up on Ansons doing VIP and mail runs. He flew back in a Lancaster to RAF Kirkham via RAF Silloth, where he was demobbed. Jack flown in Domine, Proctor, Anson, Wellington and a Lancaster.
Jack married in 1951 and had two children, went back to the footplate until 1961. After that he worked as a manager of a fancy goods shop and eventually moved to Bridlington.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
England--Cumbria
Egypt
Egypt--Suez Canal
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1946-02
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
104 Squadron
14 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
demobilisation
Dominie
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Abu Sueir
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kirkham
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Shallufa
RAF Silloth
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner