3
25
59
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1147/11704/PStonemanMW1801.2.jpg
509d5227e21a19d7e4a5cb777fffce65
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1147/11704/AStonemanMW180605.1.mp3
5383088c11d268370aacf1062d3a73e3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stoneman, Maurice
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice Stoneman (1923 - 2018). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57 and 9 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stoneman, MW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Let me introduce myself. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr Maurice Stoneman [buzz]
Other: In Farnborough.
DK: in Farnborough.
MS: [unclear] Cameron.
DK: I’ll, I’ll just put that there. The date is the, where are we? 5th of —
Other: 5th of June.
DK: The 5th of June 2018.
Other: Right. So I’m going to have a cigar.
DK: Ok.
Other: I’ll be back in a minute Mog.
DK: Ok. So, can, can you remember much about your time in the RAF?
MS: Very well. I knew my crew. And from there I went to the parachute school.
DK: Right.
MS: Excuse me.
DK: That’s ok. Take your time. It’s alright.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Is this your crew here?
MS: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So which one’s you?
MS: There’s me.
DK: That’s you.
MS: Yeah. There’s the skipper. And he, he’s no longer with us. He had a prang.
DK: Really.
MS: He was crop spraying and ran into a tree.
DK: Oh dear. Can you remember his name?
MS: Yeah. Johnny Ludford.
DK: Donny Lodford?
MS: Ludford.
DK: Ludford. Johnny Ludford. Right. Ok.
MS: Yeah. That was a headmaster of a school in Edinburgh.
DK: Right.
MS: And he was an Eton schoolboy that one.
DK: Right.
MS: And that was Buzz. He’s just passed away.
DK: Right.
MS: I don’t know what happened. There was Canadian. I know.
DK: That’s you.
MS: There. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I don’t know what that bloke’s doing now.
DK: So, so that’s you. You. Right. Going on.
MS: That’s me there. That was our mid-upper.
DK: Right. So you were the flight engineer.
MS: I was the flight engineer. Yeah.
DK: Right. So that’s the flight engineer. You. That’s the pilot.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Mid-upper gunner.
MS: Yeah. Navigator.
DK: Navigator. Yeah.
MS: Bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer.
MS: Wireless op.
DK: Wireless operator.
MS: Rear gunner.
DK: Right. Can you, can you remember their names?
MS: No. No.
DK: No. Ok.
MS: Johnny Ludford. Buzz, wireless op. Woody, he was the schoolboy. He attended [pause] what was that place near Windsor?
DK: Eton.
MS: Eton.
DK: Eton. He went to Eton did he?
MS: He was an Eton schoolboy.
DK: Right.
MS: And, and a very posh talk, you know and we used to pull his leg. But he flew. He flew in to a tree. He was low flying crop spraying and there should have been two on board. One was a lookout. He was the pilot and he hit a tree.
DK: In South Africa. And was killed. Oh dear.
MS: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know which school but he was the headmaster of that school.
DK: That’s the navigator.
MS: Yeah. And that’s the wireless op.
DK: Right.
MS: And the rear gunner. Canadian. Mid-upper gunner.
DK: Right.
MS: Flight engineer.
DK: Right. Ok. So, can you, can you recall which squadrons you were with?
MS: Yeah. 57.
DK: Just making sure we’re ok.
MS: 57. Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: At East Kirkby.
DK: East Kirkby. Right.
MS: And I remember we were near Boston and we used to come across the North Sea around there at Boston. What did they call it?
DK: The Boston Stump.
MS: The Stump. Yeah. The Stump. Go round, round, we used to, and around Lincoln Cathedral and land. But when we saw Boston Stump we said we’re home.
DK: Home.
MS: We made it.
DK: So, how many operations did you fly?
MS: Twenty nine.
DK: Twenty nine.
MS: They wouldn’t let, they wouldn’t [pause] but I laid, one part I laid mines.
DK: Right.
MS: In the Konigsberg Canal and we went low and laid these mines. And there was two German warships there. Gneisenau [pause] I can’t think of the other.
DK: Scharnhorst. Was it the Scharnhorst?
MS: There was two warships.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: Gneisenau. And I went through this this morning in my mind and now I’ve forgotten it.
DK: Was it the Prince Eugen? The Prince Eugen?
MS: Yeah.
DK: Ah right. The Prince Eugen.
MS: Eugen. Yeah. Eugen. Yeah.
DK: So, so you actually saw those two battleships.
MS: Yeah. There was two of them and they were trapped in there for three weeks. Couldn’t get out because we were laying mines there. And we went down that low and off to port across Poland all the Polish people were —
DK: Waving to you.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Waving.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you were that low. Yeah.
MS: We were that low dropping food and we were that low we were [pause] that middle picture there.
DK: Ah.
MS: Yeah
DK: Let’s have a look.
MS: The Duke of Edinburgh gave me a copy of that.
DK: So, that was —
MS: For each of the crew.
DK: So, that was, that was Operation Manna.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. How many? How many Manna trips did you do?
MS: Altogether I did twenty nine. Plus laying the mines. And thirty one.
DK: Thirty one. Is it ok if I have a look at your logbook?
MS: You’re very welcome.
DK: Thank you very much.
MS: I’m afraid it’s got a bit worn.
DK: It’s a bit old now, isn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, you had a nickname of Mog then, did you?
MS: Mog. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: The crew didn’t call me Mog.
DK: No.
MS: It’s the people here call me Mog.
DK: Right. Ok. So, so you were 1943 then. I’m reading from the logbook. So you were with 57 squadron.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And your pilot was Ludford. L U D F O R D.
MS: Yeah. Johnny Ludford.
DK: Johnny.
MS: Johnny Ludford, and he, as I say he was crop spraying in Africa and he flew in to a tree.
DK: Oh dear. Was he, was he a good pilot?
MS: Yeah.
DK: You felt, felt happy with him? Did you?
MS: Yeah. Because my seat was next to his and I operated the, Johnny just used to steer it.
DK: Right.
MS: And I’d operate the throttles and the rev counters. I did all that. Otherwise it would have been monotonous.
DK: Yeah.
MS: But I sat next to Johnny. I met his, his father who took that photograph of the crew.
DK: Right. So, so you, you and the pilot had to work as a team did you?
MS: We certainly did. Yeah.
DK: So he’s, he’s controlling the aircraft and you’re controlling the engines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you had to know what the engines were doing then, did you?
MS: Yeah. Well, he would start them off at the take off, and then when we got to a certain speed I would follow his hand up with all four engines.
DK: So you’d follow his hand up on the throttles.
MS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then, and then you took over the throttle controls then.
MS: Yeah. He would, he had to steer it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Now, I controlled the throttles until we were airborne and get the flaps up, and got the revs out.
DK: So did, is it something you could still today do you think? Could you get into a Lancaster today and take off?
MS: I could do it I think.
DK: Yeah.
MS: But the controls are a bit more modern.
DK: Right. So just, I’m just looking at your logbook here.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, it’s 1943, and November the 5th and you’re doing a lot of training flights by the looks of it. Training.
MS: Doing what?
DK: Training flights.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Bullseye.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Remember a bullseye?
MS: Yeah. I enjoyed that actually.
DK: So what was a bullseye then?
MS: I’d sit next to the pilot and I would operate the throttles. Everything. He would steer it.
DK: And on your right you’ve got the controls to the engines, haven’t you? Dials.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what, what did you have to do with the dials?
MS: Well, usually once we got airborne I didn’t have to do much.
DK: Right.
MS: But I’d pull up the flaps. The undercart. Yeah. I did all that. The flaps.
DK: Right.
MS: Undercart. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the flying side.
DK: Did you, did you control the flaps and the undercarriage when you landed as well?
MS: Yeah.
DK: So as you’re landing.
MS: Before —
DK: Johnny’s, Johnny’s controlling it.
MS: That’s right. When we came in to land the skipper would say, ‘Wheels down.’
DK: Put the wheels down.
MS: I’d put the wheels down. The flaps, fifteen when we took off.
DK: So just looking at your logbook you’ve done an operation here. Your first operation to Berlin.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember? Do you remember going to Berlin?
MS: Nine times.
DK: Nine times.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And what was it like? A trip to Berlin.
MS: You got flak up your bum [laugh] It was dodgy. And one time we landed. I’d got across the North Sea on two engines.
DK: Right.
MS: And then we crash landed in the Wash.
DK: Oh.
MS: In the Wash. And Boston Stump was just over there. And the air sea rescue people were there to pick us up.
DK: Right. Can you remember what happened to the two engines?
MS: Yeah.
DK: Had they been hit by flak?
MS: They were, they were alright. It was the supply. A shell hit the supply.
DK: A shell.
MS: A shell.
MS: Yeah. Ack ack.
DK: Right.
MS: Hit the supply. And so I switched them both off otherwise you’re losing fuel.
DK: So the shell hit the fuel supply and you’re losing fuel so you switch off the engines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Switched them off. Switched the supply to starboard off.
DK: And, and can you remember much about crashing on the sea then? Because you said you landed in the Wash.
MS: Yeah. On a sandbank.
DK: On a sandbank. Ah. You weren’t actually in the water.
MS: Not actually in the water but RNLI came in and saw we were ok.
DK: Right.
MS: And they took us [pause] from, from 57 Squadron. They came and picked us up. Went to the mess. But we reported it. One of their fighters was shot down.
DK: Right.
MS: And we saw the pilot on a parachute.
DK: Right.
MS: And we reported it and he then came to the mess. He then, he married an English girl [laughs]
DK: So, so he was a German pilot.
MS: German pilot shot down but we took him to the mess.
DK: Right.
MS: And —
DK: He later married an English girl.
MS: He, yeah he married one of the girls there.
DK: Can, can, can you recall where this German aircraft was shot down? Was it over England?
MS: No. The North Sea.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: North Sea. And the RNI, RNLI went and picked him up.
DK: Right. That wasn’t your aircraft that shot him down was it?
MS: No.
DK: No.
MS: No. He was shot down by a Mosquito.
DK: Right.
MS: Yeah. The Mossie had a bit more fuel than the single seater fighter.
DK: Did you have a drink with him in the mess then? Did you?
MS: We did indeed [laughs]
DK: What was it like meeting a German then?
MS: Well, the point is he seemed to know Great Britain. So he weren’t a complete stranger.
DK: Oh.
DK: But he talked good English anyway.
DK: He talked good English. Yeah.
MS: Yeah. We, well, broken English.
DK: It must have been very strange meeting your enemy then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So just looking at your logbook again. So you’d done nine trips to Berlin.
MS: Yeah. Out of all the trips we did nine to Berlin.
DK: Right. And you’ve also got Leipzig. Do you remember going to Leipzig?
MS: Yeah. Leipzig.
DK: And Frankfurt.
MS: Yeah. Leipzig and Frankfurt.
DK: So you got Brunswick on the 14th of January 1944.
MS: Yeah. We bombed a dam.
DK: Oh.
MS: When what’s his name got all the publicity about bursting a dam —
DK: The Dambusters.
MS: We were bombing a dam further over.
DK: They didn’t make a film about you then.
MS: No. Möhne and Eder Dam.
DK: So, I’ve just got here you did an operation to Berlin.
MS: Yeah.
DK: 15th of February 1944. And it says diverted to Swinderby.
MS: Yeah. Swinderby. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember why you had to go there?
MS: Yeah. We lost our brakes.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: And at Swinderby, I think Swinderby [pause] I didn’t think it was Swinderby. Anyway, we touched down at a special aerodrome where they let you touch down, across came out a wire.
DK: Oh right.
MS: On our tail wheel. And that slowed us down.
DK: Oh ok. Ok. And you’ve got on here 19th of February 1944 you’d gone to Leipzig again.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve written in here, “Junkers 88. No hydraulics, oxygen. Electrical failures.”
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: That was the worst raid.
DK: Can you remember that? So you were attacked by a German JU88.
MS: Junkers 88. Yeah.
DK: Can, can you remember much about that?
MS: I remember him coming over the top and he hit the mid-upper gunner and wounded him.
DK: Right.
MS: But we got him back and he was in hospital.
DK: Right.
MS: He didn’t make it.
DK: Oh [pause] So the JU88 attacked you and killed your mid-upper gunner.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right. You’ve put here brackets, “Shaky do.’’ Is that, is that an understatement? Right. So you remember the attack by the JU88 then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Did your gunners fire back?
MS: Yeah. They, oh yeah. The rear gunner he was really good too. He was quick. And we know the rear gunner got one of the Junkers 88. But in the main the Mosquitoes and what’s the twin boom aircraft?
DK: The Lightning?
MS: Lightning. Yeah. Yeah. The Lightning.
DK: That, that —
MS: Yeah. He got, he came with us and he followed the Junkers 88 and we know that that aircraft pranged in the North Sea.
DK: So it was shot down then. Right. And, and can you remember coming back then ‘cause from Leipzig because your aircraft’s damaged?
MS: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that and Boston. There was a Boston Stump. And we’d go around Boston Stump, around Lincoln Cathedral and touch down.
DK: At East Kirkby. Yeah. So just going through your logbook again you went to Stuttgart twice. Frankfurt. Essen. Nuremberg.
MS: Frankfurt was a difficult one.
DK: Right.
MS: There was a lot of ack ack on the way in.
DK: So I’ve got here Frankfurt. That was on the 22nd of March 1944.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So that was a lot of flak fired.
MS: Yeah. I can’t remember all those dates
DK: No. No. No. No. And you’ve got an interesting one here. It’s the 5th of April 1944. Toulouse.
MS: Toulouse. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And you’ve put here, “Nine tenths target destroyed.”
MS: Yeah.
DK: Was that a successful raid then?
MS: Yeah. Mind you sometimes it was awkward because the Germans were in France and we, we took them on. I don’t know where. Toulouse. Yeah. Yeah. Toulouse it was, I think. And we took, took them on.
DK: Right. And it says you actually attacked at six thousand feet in a full moon so —
MS: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember that? Clear conditions.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve got here Danzig Bay where you’re dropping mines. Dropping mines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Yeah. Yeah. The two German warships. We dropped in the entrance and we dropped mines there and the Germans couldn’t get in.
DK: Right.
MS: Took them three weeks to clear the mines.
DK: So that was very successful then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I remember we kept the, kept the Germans at bay for another three weeks. I remember the Toulouse raid.
DK: Right.
MS: The Toulouse raid. That was a close call.
DK: Can you remember what happened?
MS: Yeah. We got hit in several places. I had to shut the engines off and we landed in the banks of a [pause] I can’t think of it. We were in the banks of the Wash anyway.
DK: Yeah.
Other: As I said, David, I don’t know if it’s in there but he was actually on the Tirpitz raid as well.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
Other: Presume that was with 9 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So you finished with 9 Squadron then and you’d gone off to the Lancaster Finishing School.
MS: Yeah. I was an instructor.
DK: And then it looks like you spent a bit of time with 50 Squadron. 50 Squadron. Five zero Squadron.
MS: Yeah. Well, 57 was my main squadron.
DK: Right. Oh, hang on. I’m going on a bit. Sorry. My fault.
MS: The main thing that annoyed us was I was commissioned and a friend of mine I went through the ATC. The lot. But he failed his exam and he had a, he had a separate room to me and I said no, on the train this was going down to Cosford to the engineer’s course. And then they came and I said I wanted to stay with him. And the squadron leader came and ordered me out of that. I had to go in to the first class.
DK: Right.
MS: He ordered me to go and I left this bloke. My friend. We went through the ATC, the lot together. And he just failed his exam.
DK: Right. Ok. Do you want to take a bit of a rest there? I’ll just stop this for a moment.
[recording paused]
DK: How do you look back now on your time now in the RAF? In Bomber Command. How do you look back on it?
MS: Yeah. [pause] Yeah. I just wish that the skipper was alive. The last one as far as I know was the wireless op, Buzz.
DK: Right.
MS: And his son rang. Rang me up to say, ‘We lost dad.’ So —
Other: That was a couple of years ago.
DK: Right. So —
[pause]
MS: Yeah.
Other: And your skipper was Johnny Ludford.
MS: He was a good bloke.
DK: Yeah. Done that.
MS: A good crew we had really.
DK: A good crew. Yeah.
MS: Good and friendly. A Canadian. When we got back we had a moon stand down of four days. Our rear gunner, Canadian, he went back home and he got three months holiday [laughs] And we had just about four days I think it was.
DK: So the Canadians got three months and you got four days.
[pause]
DK: So, in 19 — you then went to 9 Squadron. Do you remember 9 Squadron?
MS: No. I did the one trip in 9 Squadron.
DK: Only one.
MS: And then peace was declared.
DK: Right. So you went to 9 Squadron. You flew Lancaster WST and you did one operation to Pilsen. Pilsen. P I L S E N.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s when the war’s ended.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And did you do the Operation Manna trips then? Dropping the food.
MS: Well, I was posted to Kidlington.
DK: Right.
MS: And from there I was at High Wycombe. That was a parachute school.
DK: Right.
MS: And I did several jumps, you know. Parachute jumps. And when I got to Kidlington they, they wanted to know what I did, and as a favour I did a parachute jump and landed in a field near the officer’s mess. Then we all went and had a drink.
[pause – pages turning]
DK: Ok. I’ll end it there. I can see you’re getting a little bit tired. If you want to have your drink I’ll turn that off now.
[recording paused]
DK: Just put that back on again. you’ve got some photos here. So that’s from 1945. [pause]
MS: Yeah. That’s me.
DK: Ok.
MS: I was second. Second in command.
DK: So, that’s at Skellingthorpe in 1945 and you’re third one in, is it? That one.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, is that you there?
MS: No. Next to him. Yeah. Next to —
DK: Next.
MS: Next to the silly bugger there [laughs]
DK: Right. That’s you there. Right. Ok.
[pause]
MS: Those are photographs of the parade.
DK: So, they’re after the war, are they?
MS: I had to attend them. Yeah. There’s me. I’ve got a mark over them. There.
DK: Oh that’s you there. Right. Ok. So that’s post war then. That’s 19 —
MS: It was a bit difficult because those rifles look a bit like that. And that bloke was doing his National Service. And that was the CO.
DK: So that’s 1955 then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So what year did you leave the RAF? Do you recall?
MS: I don’t know.
DK: No. Ok. Ok.
Other: I think it was ’54.
DK: Oh ‘54. Yeah. From ’45. Ok. Let’s stop that there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Stoneman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStonemanMW180605, PStonemanMW1801
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:35:15 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Stoneman was posted to 57 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby as the flight engineer on Lancasters in 1943. He recalls that on returning from operations they used to fly around the Boston Stump and around Lincoln Cathedral before finally landing. In total Maurice flew 29 operations across Europe. During an early operation mines were dropped in the Königsberg canal, blocking the exit of the German ships the Prinz Eugen and Gneisenau for three weeks. On one operation, anti-aircraft fire had cut the fuel to two engines. They had to crash land on a sandbank in the Wash. Air Sea Rescue came out and picked them up. In February 1944, their aircraft lost its brakes and was diverted to RAF Swinderby where a cable across the runway was used to catch the tail wheel and bring them to a safe stop. During a flight, a German pilot was seen to parachute out of his aircraft and land in the sea. The Air Sea Rescue collected the pilot. He was taken to the squadron mess and entertained by Maurice. An operation to Leipzig resulted in his aircraft being attacked by a Ju 88. The mid upper gunner was seriously wounded, dying later in hospital. The aircraft lost hydraulics and oxygen. Maurice describes this operation as ‘a shaky do’. Transferred to a Lancaster Finishing School as an instructor, and then to 9 Squadron for one final bombing operation before the war ended. He also took part in Operation Manna.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Boston
England--Lincoln
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
England--The Wash
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-02
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
57 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
crash
ditching
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mess
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
prisoner of war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1601.2.jpg
8d383cb13e5d542084f5bb97a0e790e4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1602.2.jpg
582edc8348383d4840c77d8fb850fd8d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/AWebbLP161024.1.mp3
cf99d1beff0f84f2291e3486524ef69e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Webb, Lacey Peter
L P Webb
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Lacey Peter Webb (1925 - 2017, Royal Air Force), service material, aircraft drills, engineering notes, photographs and propaganda leaflets. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 427 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Webb, LP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I just make sure it’s working. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home on 24th of October 2016. It seems to be working. I’ll just leave that, just move that over there. If I just leave that, leave that there
LPW: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down, I’m only checking to make sure it’s still working. It’s ok. So, what I like to know is first of all, before joining the Royal Air Force, what were you doing?
LPW: I was assembling furniture.
DK: Ok.
LPW: In a factory in the local town.
DK: Ok and then, what made you then want to join the RAF?
LPW: Well, when you think, I was fourteen, I was actually fourteen and fourteen weeks old when the war started. So I was a, brainwashed really by the war, I mean, all my teenage life was interrupted by the war from thirteen when I used to read the papers and so forth and of course when the war started, I was fascinated by the bomber operations.
DK: Ok.
LPW: And as I grew old, as I, they became my heroes and I wanted to become a member of Bomber Command.
DK: Alright, so it wasn’t seeing the fighters in the Battle of Britain.
LPW: No, no, it’s. And then, when I got seventeen and three quarters, they called us up. We signed on, then, men they called us then and I went up to Norwich for my medical and then of course you have to state what you would like to force you to join I said the Air Force, aircrew, you did a little test, they took about thirty of us in the room and asked us how many beans make five, you know quite simple little questions. They sorted through quite a number actually and then I went to Cardington and I actually met an interesting chap on the way down the bus from Bedford station down to Cardington, chap sat next to me and he said he’s going down. He says he’s going for an aircrew medical but he wasn’t [unclear]. He was a meteorological officer and he was going for a medical and he said he was Bob Hope’s cousin, cause he said he came from Bath, I think, which is Bob Hope’s hometown I think. Anyway, we were
DK: Not many people realise Bob Hope was actually born in Britain do they.
LPW: Not really and anyway I done my thing there and I think there’s about sixty of us. When we went for our interview on the third morning, there were just four of us left. Amazing, I was amazed,
DK: So the others had all been
LPW: Failed, as soon as you failed you were gone.
DK: Thank you.
LPW: I think they were pretty ruthless about selection. And I went in and met the old boys, us three RAF and they all had their gold braid and they asked me what, you know, what I would like to be and I said, I’d like to be a pilot. Of course, they looked at my educational qualifications, they said, you’re not quite up to that, son, but they said there’s a new trade as flight engineer and you take the place of the second pilot. And that’s how I became to be a flight engineer.
DK: So what form did the training take after that then?
LPW: What, when I joined up?
DK; Yes, once you
LPW: Well, I went, cause we all went to Lord’s Cricket Ground when we were first called up. I think three weeks at St John’s Wood and my [unclear] at St John’s Wood, believe it or not, was in the honour guard for the Queen Mother, was the old Queen Mother, the Queen at the time she was visiting the YMCA at the aircrew reception centre. And that was a private house set back and what happened was that the NCO in charge of the squad had done a bit of drilling and so forth, he selected about forty blokes out of the hundred and twenty, more or less the same height, and cause we had our, hadn’t changed our uniform, so some of us were short blokes head, the great coat came down, half way down the thigh and the tall chaps, they [unclear] tall policemen, about seven or eight policemen, they came half way up the thigh, you know. And some had hats that, flapped round their heads. Anyhow these chaps who were in charge of the squad lined us odd bods outside on the road, to keep the crowds back, I suppose and the real squad, he took off somewhere until the Queen went into the YMCA, they was supposed to come and line the garden down to the road when she came out. Of course, they got lost somewhere in the maze and so they brought all us odd bods to perform the guard of honour as you would say. Well, I’m sure that when her Majesty walked past us and she looked at us, I’m sure she was smiling and she thought to myself, what an odd lot of bods it was.
DK: Couldn’t believe what she was seeing.
LPW: Yeah. You imagine, you know, all the different, because when they gave you, you all got the same thing, you know. But there you go.
DK: So once you’ve done your
LPW: Three weeks down there.
DK: You’ve done initial
LPW: I went to Bridlington for six weeks initial training and
DK: Was that most of your square bashing there, was it down at Bridlington?
LPW: Yeah, and then we done aircraft recognition and we pulled the Sten gun to pieces and put it together and all that sort of stuff. And then, at the beginning of January we went down to St Athans and that’s where the training started, you know.
DK: As a flight engineer.
LPW: Yeah. First of all, they explained to us what a nut was and what the washer was, you know, it completely started right from the scratch
DK: It was very basic stuff.
LPW: Terrific rarely when you think about it, I just found this book of mine which was, which I done my course on and you want to have a look at that, at this quite extensive really.
DK: So, just for the benefit of the recording here, I will sort of go through what’s in here so. So, it’s got the Hercules six, which is the engine. So, it’s all the power outputs for that type of engine, leading particulars, degree of supercharging, oh wow, that’s all the engine though and so it’s got diagrams of the cylinders and crank shaft.
LPW: Is everything is in there.
DK: So.
LPW: All the diagrams, they draw those.
DK: So, you had to draw these
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Engine oil pressure pumps
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh wow.
LPW: I mean, when you look at that, we had a six months course, I know it wasn’t all on,
DK: Not just on the engine.
LPW: But they gave us two weeks to learn to pick up on a Lanc, completely different engine, airframe and everything
DK: So the work on the, the training on the Hercules was the assumption you could go on the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So we got
LPW: We’d actually done [unclear] training in the last six months, really.
DK: So I got here Clarks viscosity valve
LPW: Six weeks.
DK: Do you remember the Clarks viscosity valve? [laughs]
LPW: Yeah. I just found that out this morning, I thought, I will have a look at it.
DK: This is, this is marvellous. You got a diagram inside the Halifax there which you’ve drawn
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Oh, wow.
LPW: Interesting, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. One thing the centre is doing is they are making copies of things like this, I think this is something that they’d be really interested in. I’m gonna have a think about that, I could get it copied it for you and get it to the centre there. Very in depth, isn’t it? Hayward compressor, oil temperature gauge, oil pressure gauge, so, these are all diagrams that you
LPW: Yeah, we had to draw those, yeah.
DK: Oh, I know they’d be interested in this. Ok, so, I’ll just put that back down there. So, that’s your, so that was your training all at St Athans. So, how long did the training at St Athans last?
LPW: Six months.
DK: Six months. And then after that where did you, where were you posted to then?
LPW: Well, apart from one of us, I’m pretty certain that I was sent to [unclear] for about two hours and then they sent us to a different conversion unit.
DK: Right.
LPW: And I went to Topcliffe. Conversion unit. And I was there for about and that was where I joined the crew because the crew, originally, as you know, they’d done initial training the other six together. They come to heavy conversion, pick up the flight engineer, then we’d done about a month there.
DK: So that’s where you first met your crew then, at Topcliffe.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And they were all Canadian?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So they’d trained in Canada and then come over.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: I know it was quite normal that the Canadians didn’t seem to train flight engineers.
LPW: They didn’t. Well they, at the end of the war, I got my screening leave, went back, walked in the section, who should I see, the Canadian trained flight engineer.
DK: So they did towards the end of the war then.
LPW: But you know, the Canadians financed and serviced the whole group
DK: The 6 group.
LPW: I don’t think the British public ever realised that.
DK: So that was the first time you met your crew then. Did the pilot choose you or did you go up to them?
LPW: Well, we were in a room and certainly this chap, or two of them came and said, you’ve been recommended to us as a flight engineer and that was the pilot and navigator. And that’s how we met.
DK: And what was your impression when you first met the pilot and navigator?
LPW: Well, I thought, seem very competent, you know. They were chaps. I suppose the pilot was about twenty-six and the navigator was about twenty-eight.
DK: So they were quite a bit older then, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. I mean, from what the rest of the crew said, in the mess
DK: So this is the crew here, is it?
LPW: That’s the pilot and that’s the navigator.
DK: So, can you remember the pilot’s name?
LPW: Yeah, Phil Millard.
DK: Millard. And the navigator?
LPW: Cyrus Vance.
DK: Cyrus Vance.
LPW: Yeah. His name was Pigger Vance, he was American. Well, he went to America when he was three years old.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And his brother was shot down over Berlin.
DK: So that’s the navigator Cyrus Vance. And remember this one?
LPW: Yeah. Pigger Vance.
DK: Pigger Vance. Yeah.
LPW: Gordon Upwell, he was the wireless operator. That was me there.
DK:
LPW: John Nookes and Bill Smith. He was the mid upper and he was the rear gunner. Myself there and there and the same there.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And that was in my heyday there.
DK: So that’s you, so, so the pilot was Peter Webb?
LPW: No, pilot was Phil Millard.
DK: Oh, sorry. Sorry, I’m getting confused.
LPW: Yeah. Actually, they screened me. They’d done 34, I’d done 36. I had to screen them at the same time.
DK: So how many operations did you actually?
LPW: Actually, I did 32.
DK: Thirty-two.
LPW: Although the tour was thirty-five at the time. I think they threw the two trips in that we had to abort. They had plenty of aircrew at the time you see.
DK: So you then met at Topcliffe and where did you all move on to then? Is that when you joined the squadron?
LPW: No, we got posted to the famous Lion squadron, and, 427, at Leeming.
DK:427
LPW: At Leeming. One thing about my Air Force days. I always went to a sort of a modern camp, Topcliffe and Leeming were pre-war stations. And in St John’s Wood we went in a proper hotel in St John’s Wood and at St Athan a hut camp had all the modern facilities and never did go on a satellite. Some chaps had a hard time on satellite ‘dromes and Nissan huts and so forth.
DK: So the stations you were on weren’t all very well built.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Is that ok if I have a look at the logbook then? So looking through, so you did thirty two operations
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Starting off with the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah. Cap Gris Nez was my first one on the 27th of September. Is it still legible?
DK: Yeah, yeah, so, twenty, that’s daylight, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So, 28th of September?
LPW: 28, was it?
DK: Pilot was Millard. And the aircraft is ZLV. Cap Gris Nez
LPW: [unclear] Although we didn’t bomb, they called us off before we bombed.
DK: Ok. Just going through here then.
LPW: Yeah. What was the next one?
DK: Cross countries, sea searches there.
LPW: Yeah. On squadron
DK: Return from Bury St Edmunds. Oh, here we go, sorry, operations Dortmund.
LPW: Yeah. Was that the second one?
DK: Yeah, looks like it.
LPW: What was that one?
DK: That says cross country.
LPW: Oh, right. Yeah.
DK: So I think the second one here was I think the 6th of October.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: ’44.
PLW: Dortmund.
DK: Dortmund. And it says, thirteen hang ups. So, the bombs didn’t drop.
LPW: And the undercarriage didn’t come down when we came in to land, the pilot on the downward leg, he said, load was showing red red, what are you going to do, Peter? So I got my hacksaw out, the old training came in well, cut a little piece of copper wire and released the pressure, the oil from the piston and down came the
DK: And the undercarriage came down. So that was from the Dortmund operation, was it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying thirteen hang up bombs and couldn’t get the undercarriage down.
LPW: As we had a little bit of trouble to take off. We got caught in the slipstream [unclear] plane ahead of us and that swung us off and the pilot overcorrected it. And went slowly across the intersection of the runways and even today, I can see people jumping down off aeroplanes to stand and watch, some on the wing of a plane jumping. When we got back, they said we just went over the bomb dump.
DK: So that was the Dortmund raid as well, was it? So next operation was the 9th of October and it’s Bochum and mentions fighter attack. Were you attacked?
LPW: Just think, I think the gunners saw something and they, the pilot went into a corkscrew.
DK: So the next one was an early return.
LPW; Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg, which was a daylight, wasn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, Duisburg, twice in twenty four hours.
DK: So there was Duisburg, daylight,
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg again [unclear]
LPW: Yeah, one Sunday morning, we got there just early, eight, ten o’clock time
DK: In fact, one of the veterans I interviewed last week, his name was Ray Park, 218 Squadron, he was on both the Duisburg raids.
LPW: Was he?
DK: Yeah, he mentioned that it was a daylight and then a night time [unclear] on that raid.
LPW: Yeah. Then we got back to bed, they got us out of bed again, to go to Stuttgart, but the pilot complained and they took us off the raid.
DK: So you should have done Stuttgart after that. Then on the 23rd of October, Essen.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then, 25th of October, Homburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And 2nd of November, Dusseldorf.
LPW: Yeah. A lot of training as well.
DK: Yeah. Not the cross country, it was a local flying
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Then you got, St. Vith here
LPW: St. Vith, yeah, Boxing Day.
DK: St. Vith.
LPW: Yeah. But, you know, when they, Ardennes, defence when the Germans broke through, we bombed the cross roads, Boxing Day.
DK: Yeah, so that was the 26th of October. You put here a note, excellent prangs.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that went well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was in daylight as well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then flak damage to ailerons.
LPW: Yeah. If we finished that, we had to go up to Russia, it tells you in there where we went to
DK: Alright.
LPW: We couldn’t land at Leeming it was fog, when we took off, that was down twenty feet, we got above, it was a lovely day once you got above
DK: So then you got Ludwigshafen.
LPW: Ludwigshafen. Mannheim and Ludwigshafen. One either side of the river.
DK: Yeah. So here, 6th of January 1945, mentions that you blew a tyre on the end of the runway.
LPW: Yeah. That was a day of disaster, really was [unclear] somewhere. Daylight raid? We were the spare crew and suddenly I said, off you go and off we went. Turned, just as we turned on the runway, the tyre burst. Now, the golden rule about turning the plane, you never clamp the inside of the wheel tight because you grind, hold it and the wires that reinforce the tyre break. And will allow and the pressure comes on the tyre. And your [unclear] bursts and we got into the spare plane and the time we got there we were about five minutes late of the end of the raid. The pilot said we carry on here and the Lanc formed up on the side of us about hundred yards, level with us. I often wondered about this and we were about and on the bomb run and suddenly this Lanc blew up, it’s a Pathfinder, all the different flares caught fire, just [unclear] and after seeing you know the Dam Busters film, where Gibson after he dropped his bombs, he flew down beside the other to take the flak away from the, I often wonder if that chap would have done the same for us, you don’t know do you. On the way back we were, half and half on our way there was a terrific thump. Someone said, what was that? And the rear gunner, he said, that was a Jerry fighter, this Jerry fighter went just over the top of us, and that was the air pressure gave us a terrific thump, so that was the day of, could have been.
DK: So that was all on the 6th of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah. Could have been a day of horrors, couldn’t it?
DK: So originally on aircraft W, blew the tyre at the end of the runway and changed to L.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And bombed five minutes late. [file missing]
So, David Kavanagh again. 24th of October 2016 interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home. This is the second of two, working ok. So, just going back to your logbook. As you say, you did thirty two operations then.
LPW: Two aborted.
DK: Aborted.
LPW: One just after we got off the deck. One trip. Is in there somewhere. You went up the North Sea, designated area, and dropped the bombs. By the time we dropped the bombs and used up the fuel, we were, had the right amount of weight down for landing.
DK: Got one here. Operation to Magdeburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was the sixteenth of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: This is number four tank, port stuck, number four tank cocks [unclear]
LPW: What happened done all my pre-flight checks, you’d operate all the fuel cocks and everything you know and the fuel cock on number four was stuck, couldn’t move it and as it happened the OIC (Officer in Command), the warrant officer OIC, the flight, was actually in our dispersal. And he personally got up on the wing and eased this cock, made it work, that’s the one we took off on. Turned it off, we were always given a fuel system before we took off, when we, you know, the golden rule was one tank, one engine, in danger areas like take off, landings and so forth and the target area. Went to turn it on, won’t move. So we were then there’s a hundred and thirty gallons left in there and spare overload is always a hundred and twenty five extra in case of emergencies. So then I had to work a system where we were, a hundred and thirty gallons, that was locked away and then we worked on another system and kept the engine revs and boost pressure down so we just got enough to get back.
DK: And then it says you jettison two clusters east of Hanover, among searchlights.
LPW: Yeah. We had two hang ups and we stirred a hornet’s nest as soon as we dropped, we got predictable flak.
DK: So you’re still flying the Halifax then into 1945.
LPW: Yeah. At Magdeburg, I remember now, looking over the edge of the thing, I said to the pilot, oh, look all those little lights down there. And cause we had, we were loaded with incendiaries, he said, what they are Peter are houses on fire. Rows and rows and rows of them.
DK: And I got, first of February, Halifax U and then ops to Mainz.
LPW: Yeah, Mainz. Yes.
DK: Mainz. And it says, terrible weather on return journey.
LPW: Yeah. They had a little electric fire [unclear].
DK: We got one here that was abandoned. It’s 17th of February, ops to Wesel. Called off by master bomber.
LPW: Yeah. They were fantastic people these master bombers, cool as cucumbers.
DK: So what was the role of the master bomber then?
LPW: They were to tell you what bombs to, you know, new TI’s (target indicators) go down, which to bomb and so forth and I was watching a film the other day called Appointment in London about a bomber crew and well, with Dirk Bogarde took over the master bombers role and obviously [unclear] and that bomber command, that master bomber was given instructions [unclear] and always on one raid. The master bomber was issuing instructions very quiet, you know, controlled. And suddenly he said, I think they used to call themselves Tarpat, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2, he said, we’ve been hit, he said, take over, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2 take over, Tarpat, I just can’t as if they might have crashed or exploded or something. Very tragic at the time. But they were really wonderful blokes, these master bombers
DK: Can you remember which particular raid that was?
LPW: Not really, no.
DK: No. Very tragic.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So now you’re all of the raids that were into Germany, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. Cause the tragic thing was when you’re over the target, planes are getting hit by other plane’s bombs. You know, I mean, navigation was a perfect art, you’re all, you know, converging on the target, some overshoot the turning point by a minute that’s three miles at a hundred and eighty. We used a hundred and sixty, I think, on the run in.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: And then if you turn early and I mean early so when you come to target you’re all sort of coming and we had a plane just below us, used to bomb in two hundred foot layers and the bomber he said watch out for [unclear], you know, he said, I can see him, I can see him, he says, watch him, watch him, and of course when he let his bombs, you know the trim of the plane you actually lift up and our bombs went the same time as the other bloke, cause he came up and we came up and [unclear] and sideslip away. It wasn’t until we finished the tour on to that night and we went in the mess and had a bit of a booze up with another crew who just finished, that turned out that was their plane.
DK: So you were from the same squadron then.
LPW: Cause that was the only thing about, we were both same squadron, the same hut, the same time, you see, different levels.
DK: At night, could you see much of the other aircraft, normally?
LPW: Not much, you could feel them.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: When you’re doing dog-legging, that’s a dangerous time again, lots of, they always reckon they allowed for least one crash but if you’re early, cause the, the weather forecast is never accurate, couldn’t be accurate the, you know, the speed, wind speed and the direction was never a hundred percent accurate so, if they got the wind speed and direction, if you were early, get all bombers certain time, it would dog leg. You know minute, minute to do a minute and you did minute the other way and when you start dog-legging, cause all the other people had done the same, they all believed of course of the weather forecast, so suddenly you can feel the slipstream of another plane and you know, never see them.
DK: So just go stepping back a little bit. What was your role then as a flight engineer, if you take a normal operation?
LPW: Well, you were then responsible for all the mechanical and electric drives, and make sure everything, all your tests and so forth, but you assist the pilot in take-off and landing. Until he gets the wheel up, only the throttles would control the direction the plane but as soon as he gets the wheel up, then he can the rudders and will control direction and then you take and open the throttles up and that’s what it’s all about. And other than that and the Halifax, the main job was the fuel system, six six tanks in the wing, you know, and two engines, all different and we had a little computer and it gave all the different heights and engine settings at different speeds and all that in little [unclear] places and then you turned these things round and so you know that you’re using point nine eight gallons per engine for so many minutes, you calculate that on the fuel and so you know exactly how much fuel you got in each tank and when to turn them off, that sort of thing, that’s what the flight engineer is, mainly was.
DK: So, I noticed here towards the end of February, 23rd of February you were then on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah, we then converted on Lancs, yeah.
DK: So, actually it was a mix, wasn’t it, cause 23rd of February on Lancasters but 24th of February back flying on Halifax.
LPW: Oh yeah, possibly, yeah.
DK: So it was check out on the Lancasters, local flight to a place, to Dortmund and 24th was back on a Halifax. So what was your impressions then of the Halifax against the Lancasters?
LPW: Completely different planes altogether. Halifax, we loved the Halifax, I had my own panel on the Halifax. The pilot sat here, an armour plate behind him, behind the pilot but I had a panel with all those gauges and that on. On the Lanc, you sat beside the pilot but my feeling about the Lanc was claustrophobic to me, very narrow, and all cramped up and we didn’t like it. But of course we were Halifax men but it was a marvellous plane.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: Wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
LPW: I mean, the amount of weight they carried and the distance they went, nothing else was touching it.
DK: So, can you remember how many operations you did on each?
LPW: That’s a little bit wrong there.
DK: Cause it’s got here twenty eight ops on Halifaxes and four on Lancs
LPW: yeah, that’s actually should have been thirty and two.
DK: So, thirty on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So your last operation then, let’s just have a look, is on, it’s a Lancaster then, Lancaster U,
LPW: 20th
DK: 20th of March 1945.
LPW: Yeah. That’s just the day before they crossed the Rhine I think.
DK: Right, and that was to Hemmingstedt.
LPW: Right. In Sweden. No, Denmark, not Sweden, Denmark.
DK: To the south Danish border. And you put here, very excellent prang.
LPW: We were then excellent you see [laughs].
DK: And it says here first back and first to land. So, after your operations then, what did you go on to do then?
LPW: Well, we got a ten-week screening leave and then back to the squadron and two day I was posted to Catterick, that was an aircrew assessment centre, reassessment and well, all aircrew went to assess what they could do on the ground and we were there for three days. I did get down to football with their station team and they sent me home on indefinite leave and I was at home on D-Day, V-E Day and I think on the 13th of May I was posted to the Isle of Man as a UT (under training) flying control assistant and that’s where, that was a navigation school on Isle of Man and we were there till the June of ‘46 and we came back to Topcliffe where I’d done my conversion unit as, cause a Canadian [unclear] took over Topcliffe as a navigation school.
DK: And but at that point did the rest of your crew had they been sent back
LPW: Oh yeah, sent back. I mean, they, in the three days I had come back off leave, the rear gunner told me they’d already gone except him, all the squadron, back.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then?
LPW: Don’t know, I think February ’47, I think.
DK: And did you go back to the furniture making?
LPW: No. That was my
DK: So Sergeant L P Webb from first of November ‘43 to 12th of March 1947 and [unclear] he was employed largely on clerical work, discharged duties exceptional manner.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: [unclear] duties, carried them out very satisfactory by the squadron leader, so that is dated 7th March 1947.
LPW: And it cost me a three drinks to get him to write that
DK: [laughs]
LPW: Cause you know, they demoted us as aircrew.
DK: So what
LPW: Did you know they demoted all aircrew?
DK: So, what rank were you when you were in aircrew then?
LPW: I reached the dizzy rank of warrant officer. I got my crown after nine, what the hell I got it for I never did know. You automatically got your crown after nine months, twelve months, you see. My past date on the end of July ’44 gave me three stripes and suddenly when I got to the Isle of Man, I was called up in front of the CO, he, I’ve only been there a day, he said, you’re improperly dressed, sergeant, he said, you are actually a flight sergeant, and in that time I was home on indefinite leave, I’d been promoted to flight sergeant. So I had, and now I had three months as a warrant officer and next time it was a twelve weekend and then they demoted all aircrew to sergeant and some of them. If I just stopped in another six months, I would have been demoted to my ground rank, which would have been aircraftsman second class, flying control assistant UT. If I had been in the ground staff the time I went in, I’d had been at least an aircraftsman first class and maybe an LAC leading aircraftsman, that was the unfair part of it all.
DK: It was very unfair, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, but I think some chaps I met who, I mean, quite a few had done two tours of ops, in the heavy in the early days when there was, I mean they had no chance of finding the target in the first two years of the war because there was none of these electronic gadgets and then there was days when they were bombing Berlin and the Ruhr and so forth, you know, when they took the heavy toll on them. I met these chaps, one booked on three tours, he’d been a warrant officer for about three years, he signed on for a little extra time, he couldn’t tear himself away from the Air Force, got demoted to sergeant, you know, pretty tough one.
DK: So what was your career then after you came out of the Air Force?
LPW: I then, I don’t know whether it was psychological but I thought I’d like to get into the building trade. So, I took the course on brick-laying and worked for a local firm, went and worked for a big firm in Norwich.
DK: Did you sort of think that at the end of the war you wanted to do something constructive rather than destructive?
LPW: Yeah, I think so. I don’t know whether it was psychological or what it was, you know, I had been part of a destructive force, and
DK: So, how do you look back now on you period in Bomber Command?
LPW: I thought is marvellous. I thought that was a really great time, to tell you the truth.
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crews at all?
LPW: Yeah. Yeah, the bomb aimer, I’ve been over to Canada two or three times, to stay with them and I’ve been over to see us, he passed away now.
DK: Which one was the bomb aimer?
LPW: Not the bomb aimer, the wireless operator.
DK: The wireless operator. What was his name?
LPW: Gordon, Gordon Upwell. Ever such a nice chap he was. Ever such a quiet speaking fellow.
DK: So you actually went out to Canada to meet up with him. And did you stay in touch with any of the other?
LPW: No.
DK: Ok. I think that’s probably enough, we have probably spoken more than enough, but thanks very much for that. I’ll turn the recorder off.
LPW: [unclear] Period really.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lacey Peter Webb
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWebbLP161024, PWebbLP1601, PWebbLP1602
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:45:50 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Michael Cheesbrough
Description
An account of the resource
Lacey Peter Webb remembers his role as a flight engineer in the Royal Air Force during the war and flying thirty operations on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters. Retraces his training in various stations, among them St John’s Wood, where he was selected to the be part of the Queen’s guard of honour. Tells of the selection process and the crewing up. Remembers when, on the way back from an operation over Dortmund, they couldn’t lower the undercarriage. Discusses the role of the master bomber. Explains the difficulties in coordinating bomb drops among aircraft of the same squadron when approaching the target. Tells of his life after war and how the entire crew was demoted.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945-01-06
1945-01-16
1945-03-20
427 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
RAF Leeming
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1190/11763/AWebsterJK161004.2.mp3
f9224f5c0c2f75e44c5edc90e00ebe87
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Webster, Jack
Jack K Webster
J K Webster
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Webster (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 514 and 138 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Webster, JK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. It’s David Kavanagh on the, I think it’s the 4th of October 2016, interviewing Jack Webster at his home. If I just put that there we’ll try and ignore it. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still going.
JW: That’s right.
DK: I’m not being rude. That’s looks ok. Ok. Could I just sort of ask first of all what you were doing immediately before the war?
JW: I was working in the Public Analyst’s Office.
DK: Right.
JW: Clerical more than anything. And it was a reserved, or it got known as a Reserved Occupation and did I want to join up or not and of course, I said no. Anyway, suddenly, when I was eighteen I suddenly changed my mind.
DK: So, what year would that have been? You were eighteen?
JW: ’25. ’42.
DK: 1942.
JW: December ’42.
DK: So, was it the immediate choice to join the Air Force then? Or —
JW: Oh yes. Yeah. I suddenly decided. The idea of flying suddenly appealed to me.
DK: Right. So, what, what did you, where did you start your training then at with the RAF?
JW: Well, I went to a selection board first.
DK: Right.
JW: At Cardington, and they offered me wireless operator air gunner. They said they’d got too many pilots. And, and they sent me to sort of deferred. Sent me back home and told me to hang on. And then in June ’43 I finally joined up.
DK: So that was a letter through the post was it that you got?
JW: Yes.
DK: From the joining office.
JW: And went to Viceroy Court, in St John’s Wood. Was there about three weeks I suppose and that was the start of the career so to speak. But I mean from there I went to ITW, Initial Training Wing at Bridlington and I can’t remember how long we were there but —
DK: What would you have been doing at the ITW?
JW: It was drill mostly. Drill and admin lessons. And then from there went on to Number 4 Radio School at RAF Madley in Herefordshire where it was more or less all day long Morse more than anything because they suddenly had done away with the air gunnery part because the Lancaster didn’t need the, they had the separate gunners so they just had a straight signaller or wireless op.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And any road I don’t know how long I was at the Radio School but I finally managed to pass out at eighteen words per minute Morse.
DK: Did you enjoy Morse code? Was it something you could do easily?
JW: I wouldn’t say I enjoyed it or it wasn’t easy. We got fed up with it in the end. I mean, I think some of them almost went crazy with it. I mean all day long the instructor would set up a creed machine and he’d sit back and read his paper while we sort of sent messages and things to each other. But anyway, I finally passed out there and got the brevet S and then I was sent to Dumfries Advanced Radio School, Advanced Flying Unit and we, that was on Ansons. They were just the pilot, navigator and the bomb, and the wireless op.
DK: Was that, would that have been the first time you had flown then?
JW: Oh no. I did flew, we flew at Radio School.
DK: Right. Ok.
JW: In, first of all in the old Dominie and I was sick the first time. And then after that we went on to Proctors. They were just the pilot and the wireless op and we had the pilots who were on, had sort of completed their tour. They were on rest period really but they were just flying I suppose and they were fed up with flying anyway. And of course, we had the trailing aerial which used to allow, there was a case of one of them tried to shoot up a plane in the led weights that went through the windows of the trains. They had a strict instruction. No shooting up the planes. But anyway, going back to, I went to Dumfries and, on Ansons and it was the wireless ops job there to reel the undercarriage up which —
DK: Oh right.
JW: By hand which was quite a job. And we flew up and down sort of the Irish Sea, over the Isle of Man and all this sort of thing. More or less more for the navigator than the wireless op because the wireless op was the same as what we were doing all the time really.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And, and then from the, we went to OTU at Chipping Warden.
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was? The number?
JW: I can’t. I don’t know if I’ve got it down in here.
DK: I can check later.
JW: I can’t think where I would have it. Oh, yeah. I have it.
[pause]
DK: That’s ok.
JW: Number 12 OTU.
DK: Number 12 OTU. Ok.
JW: At Chipping Warden. That’s it. And then from there —
DK: What type of aircraft were at the OTUs?
JW: Wellingtons. And that’s where we crewed up and I finished up with a, at the time all the rest of them were all Canadians.
DK: Right.
JW: Until we got to Heavy Conversion Unit when we picked up the pilot engineer.
DK: So how was the crewing done at the OTU? How did you meet your pilot?
JW: We just sort of walked around and I think somebody came up to me and said, ‘Have you got a crew?’ I said, ‘No.’ That was the pilot and he said, ‘Well, you know do, do you fancy joining me?’ So, I mean one was as good as another as far as I was concerned. That turned out he’d already had the two gunners, the navigator and bomb aimer. All Canadian. So, he said, ‘If you don’t mind Canadians.’ So, no. I didn’t. That didn’t worry me.
DK: Can you remember his name? Your pilot’s name.
JW: Yeah. Flight Lieutenant Elwood. Keith Elwood.
DK: And he was Canadian.
JW: Canadian. Yeah.
DK: So what did you think of the Canadians then? As you met them there.
JW: Oh, I got on alright with them there. Yeah. We always went around as a crew. Yeah. Yeah. We picked up the engineer at Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Right. Can you remember where the Heavy Conversion Unit was?
JW: 1668 at Bottesford. Between Grantham and Nottingham. Yeah. And —
DK: He was English, was he? The flight engineer.
JW: Yeah. He was English.
DK: So you were the two English and the rest —
JW: Two English.
DK: Were Canadian.
JW: Five were Canadians. Yeah. And, and then, and then from there we were posted to Feltwell. Yeah. RAF Feltwell which was the 514 Squadron at Cambridge.
DK: 514.
JW: And we were, we were only there for one operation and then we got posted to Tuddenham with 138 Squadron.
DK: So where, where was your first operation to with 514?
JW: That was to a synthetic oil works in the Ruhr at a place, I don’t know how you pronounce Hüls and I always remember that some of the plane, it was bombed up and had a four thousand pound cookie and fifteen five hundred pounders and it was a disappointment really. It was a GH bombing through cloud and where the pilot sort of, you fly in a rough formation and the pilot had the equipment or that, the leader had the equipment to determine when to drop that and when he opened his bomb doors you all opened yours. When he dropped his bombs you dropped yours. It was all very well until we nearly over the target then all the planes suddenly made contrails and it was like flying through cloud and after a touch you couldn’t see a thing. The navigator, I said, ‘I think they must have dropped them by now.’ So the pilot went up above the contrails and you could see and they were there. They’d turned off. So we circled around and the navigator, he said, ‘Well, we’re roughly over the target.’ So he just let them all go.
DK: So you never bombed with a GH leader then.
JW: No.
DK: You just —
JW: No. It was —
DK: And this was in daylight presumably.
JW: This was in daylight.
DK: Yeah.
JW: How I don’t know what. When we got back obviously they got interrogated. They didn’t interrogate the wireless op because there’s nothing we could see anyway, really. But what happened with them I don’t know what they, whether they said anything. Whether that was why we suddenly got posted I don’t know [laughs] but 138 Squadron had then converted from special duties. They were at Tempsford. They’d converted the special duties on to heavy bombing.
DK: So just going back a bit presumably it was at the Heavy Conversion Unit that you saw, first flew on the Lancaster was it?
JW: That was when we first flew it. Yes.
DK: So, what were your feelings about flying on that compared to the Wellington and —
JW: Well, that was, that was quite an upgrading so to speak. I mean that was a heavy bomber compared to the Wellington. And you know, everything. It seemed more spacious and yeah —
DK: So, then you’ve got on to 138 Squadron. That’s Lancasters again presumably.
JW: That was Lancasters again. Yes.
DK: And where were they based? 138.
JW: At Tuddenham. Just, we were settled at Mildenhall. In fact, I think we did have one pilot that came back with a bomb load and landed at Mildenhall by mistake instead of Tuddenham. In the night time I suppose that was easy because the two dromes, the drem lighting you know it sort of entwined one another.
DK: So when you were flying out on an operation then what, what’s your role as the wireless operator? What? What do you do when you’re —
JW: Well, the main thing is you just listen. The main thing was you had to listen in every half an hour to base and if they hadn’t got any message they would transmit a number and you had to record that number to prove that you’d heard the —
DK: Transmission.
JW: The transmission. But apart from that it was possibly the navigator might need a loop aerial bearing. Or the Group might transmit a wind, a different wind speed and if there was any recall or cancellation they would, that would come through them.
DK: So, once you got a message you would immediately tell both the pilot and navigator.
JW: If there was, yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. It, it was very rare to get a message. Obviously, there was no verbal messages. They were —
DK: What about your Morse Code training? Did that come in useful when you were once on operations?
JW: I didn’t really use it a lot. It’s funny that all these things you learn, you are taught, they don’t come in to use. I mean, I suppose had we got in to trouble Morse would have been handy then.
DK: What would have been your role as wireless operator then if the aircraft was in trouble?
JW: Well, to send any emergency position that we were at.
DK: Right.
JW: Or if we were coming down in the sea. But other than that there was not much you had to do.
DK: So how many operations did you fly?
JW: I only did five.
DK: Five. So, one with 514 and three with —
JW: Four with —
DK: Four with. So, five altogether.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But the, I suppose the, the one I remember most is a daylight on Bremen. The allies were waiting. We were going to go in to Bremen and we were supposed to go and soften them up and they routed us over Wilhelmshaven. And the Met man said before, and when we took off, before we took off he said, ‘There will be ten tenths cloud so you should be alright.’ Of course, when we got over there it was clear. It was. And we were then sort of getting near the target and the rear gunner suddenly, the light came on on the intercom and the rear gunner came on. He said, ‘Oh skipper, the kite behind has been hit.’ So, I got a bit, in the astrodome to have a look just in time to see two of them baling out. I thought well this is, this is getting too close. And we’d hardly got clear of them and suddenly we got hit. Not a, it was just a thump more than anything and the pilot called up he said, ‘Everybody alright?’ Everyone was alright. He said, ‘Can anybody see anything?’ And nobody could see anything. No damage and it wasn’t until we landed that we saw the, there was a hole in the fuselage just near the elsan and the trimmer tab on the rear elevator had been got. It was gone. Of course, he knew there was something wrong because it didn’t fly quite right and there were holes under the, in the wings. Under the wings. But apart from that just after that the master bomber cancelled the operation anyway because the target was obscured with smoke and cloud so —
DK: So you never bombed then.
JW: We bombed.
DK: Oh, you had.
JW: We had bombed.
DK: Oh right. Right.
JW: Yeah. But they stopped it after. I got a, I got a report on the one there somewhere [pause – pages turning] Yeah. The raid [pause] Yeah, the raid was hampered by cloud and by smoke and dust from bombing as the raid progressed. The master bomber ordered the raid to stop after a hundred and ninety five Lancasters had bombed. The whole of numbers 1 and 4 Groups returned home without attacking. So, I found out. I got the result off the internet. That was the, oh we went to Kiel. That’s when we capsized the Admiral Scheer and the Admiral Hipper and the Emden were badly damaged.
DK: Did you manage to see the battleships down there? Or —
JW: No. It was dark. It was night.
DK: It was dark.
JW: Night. There was five hundred and ninety one Lancasters and eight Mosquitoes. There was only three Lancasters lost. And at Bremen there were six hundred and fifty one Lancasters, a hundred Halifaxes, seven hundred and sixty seven aircraft altogether.
DK: Have you got the dates of those? Can I —
JW: Yeah.
DK: So, it’s the 9th 10th of April 1945 was Kiel. And then 14th 15th of April Cuxhaven.
JW: No. That was —
DK: Oh, Potsdam. Sorry.
JW: Potsdam. Yeah.
DK: So, 14th 15th of April 1945 Potsdam.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And then 22nd April 1945 Bremen where your aircraft was damaged.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember the Potsdam raid at all?
JW: That was night time. That was very [pause] We expected it to be a lot worse than it was. But —
DK: Just outside Berlin isn’t it? Potsdam.
JW: That’s a, that’s the suburb of Berlin.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: That said that was, that was the first time Bomber Command four engine aircraft had entered the Berlin defence since March 1944. But there was only one Lancaster shot got down by a night fighter.
DK: Were you ever attacked by any —
JW: No.
DK: Aircraft.
JW: No.
DK: So just that one incident of damage. Yeah.
JW: One damage. That was the only time we, yeah.
DK: So, moving on then. Presumably you were then involved in Operation Manna.
JW: Manna. Yes.
DK: And how many operations?
JW: I only did, we only did one Manna drop because it was a job to get on. Everybody wanted to do it and some of them were lucky. Some did quite a few. But we only got the one.
DK: Can you remember whereabouts in the Netherlands you dropped the food?
JW: The Hague.
DK: It was at the Hague.
JW: At the Hague. But I think it was probably the race track. They had a big cross out on the ground. And I can always remember as we got there I sort of looked out and you could see a German soldier standing there with a rifle and people were waving sheets and things. The words of my navigator, ‘Gosh,’ he said, ‘Look at those poor bastards.’ Yeah.
DK: So how did that make you feel dropping the food to the —
JW: Oh, that was, that was good. And I mean after that we, I only did the one but in 1983 there was, in the little booklet we used to get every sort of I can’t think what it was called now. I’ve got loads of them. Oh, “Intercom.” That’s right.
DK: Right.
JW: That’s, we used to get that every so often and there was a piece in there about anybody who took part in Operation Manna, if they were interested in having a reunion to contact this chap. So, I thought, I said to my wife, ‘Oh I don’t know. I’m not going to bother.’ ‘Go on. She said, ‘You don’t, you never know.’ So anyway, I contacted him and we had a smashing time in Holland for the weekend. I got a huge piece. I know I typed it all out and on the way back we decided we would meet the following year at Droitwich and we had quite a good weekend there. And then we got invited back to Holland by the Dutch people and we went back there in ’85. Sorry, in ’83. ’85. ’89 and 2000 and gosh they wouldn’t let you pay for anything.
DK: They, they were pleased to see you were they?
JW: Oh, they were. And the first time when we went there we went in to the sort of hotel they’d booked for us and the room was full of sort of chocolates and sweets, drinks and a little thing you know, ‘Thank you for what you did.’ I mean we got more thanks from the Dutch people than we ever did from Bomber Command. It was, yeah and they had one, they actually had a reunion last year but unfortunately I wasn’t in, couldn’t go anyway. But I don’t think there were many of them left.
DK: So, were, were you involved in Exodus as well then?
JW: Yes.
DK: The picking up of the POWs.
JW: The POWs. Yeah.
DK: So, what, can you remember where you landed to pick them up?
JW: Yes. At Juvencourt. There was, we did six I think. Five or six. And brought them back twenty four at a time. And it was there that one of them from 514 Squadron crashed on take-off and they, they lost the whole lot.
DK: Oh dear.
JW: They never did know what happened. They wondered whether the prisoners moved about and upset the balance of the aircraft. They don’t know.
DK: Did you actually see the aircraft crash?
JW: No. No.
DK: Ok. Just —
JW: No.
DK: So, what was the, what was the prisoner’s reaction when they saw you and they were, you were flying them home?
JW: Oh, they were quite pleased to see, I mean it’s funny we, we had, we had to hand them out five cigarettes, a little packet of boiled sweets and a sick bag. And we, we didn’t have any parachutes then. They said it would look bad to have parachutes on when the prisoners didn’t have so we flew without parachutes.
DK: And were they mostly Army POWs?
JW: They were Army POWs. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And some of the them were, I can remember one chap when, as we saw the cliffs at you know, the white cliffs come in to sight tears came in to his eyes. He was, he’d been away quite a while I think. But oh, they all had trophies. Helmets and bayonets and things. But —
DK: So, what, after the war is finished then what, what —
JW: The war was over. Yeah.
DK: So, what were you. What did you do immediately after that? Did you stay in the RAF for very long?
JW: Oh, they kept us on because they kept us on for what they called the Tiger Force for Japan. And it wasn’t until, well then after that we then did what they called Operation Review which was flying over different parts of the country, and different flying up and down taking photographs. It was as boring as anything. I mean, I think one of them was nine hours we had.
DK: What, what was the point of that then? Just —
JW: They were make, forming new maps I think.
DK: Oh, for map reading.
JW: I think it was. We never did really know why but that’s all we could assume. That they were making some new, new maps.
DK: So that was Operation Review.
JW: Review. Yeah.
DK: The only reason I asked you that is just literally yesterday somebody was asking me what Operation Revue was and nobody knew.
JW: Oh.
DK: You’ve answered the question.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Thank you. So you never really found out what it was for.
JW: Not what it was for. No. We saw a lot —
DK: Were all the squadrons doing this or just yourselves?
JW: No. I don’t, I honestly couldn’t say.
DK: Yeah. So, you were just flying up and down the country taking photos.
JW: Yeah. I mean it was hard on the navigator. He had to work out exactly when to turn and of course they all had to, the photographs all had to overlap.
DK: Right. I’d better tell. I’m going to tell them now what it is. Oh right. Thanks. So, so when did you actually leave the RAF then?
JW: 1947.
DK: Right. If I could just go back a stage you said that you were earmarked for Tiger Force.
JW: Yes.
DK: Going off to the Far East.
JW: Yeah.
DK: What was your feelings when the war, the war suddenly ended?
JW: Well, I suppose we, you know I think we knew. Or you could see it was going to end I think. But they wouldn’t let us go until I don’t know when. That must have been [pause] No. I can’t think. I mean, suddenly they just said, oh you’re redundant and they posted us. They posted. I got posted to [pause] God, I can never remember numbers. My memory for names now. It was RAF Molesworth. That’s it. And there was only, there was nobody in charge there. A, I think a flight sergeant. The bar was open all night. You know. It was, the Americans had left a radiogram there with one record and this one record was, “Off We Go in to The Bright Blue Yonder.” Gosh. And, and that record went and in the end somebody smashed it. But I was, I don’t know what. I was put in charge or asked to look after the cycle store. And that was a huge Nissen hut full of bicycles. And nobody wanted a bike anyway so I [laughs] —
DK: So really the, the war has ended and they really didn’t know what to do with you.
JW: They didn’t know what to do with us.
DK: So, after you’ve left the RAF what did you do then? What was your career?
JW: I went back to the Public Analyst for a very short time. I mean, the thing that, I think when I finished in the Air Force I was earning fifteen and thruppence a day which was pocket money because clothes and food was all found. And when I went back to the work I was earning five pound a week which was nothing really. But —
DK: Was your job left open for you then?
JW: Oh, yes.
DK: So, they —
JW: Yeah
DK: They had to take you back.
JW: They didn’t have to. No.
DK: Right.
JW: Because I left on my own.
DK: Oh ok.
JW: But I wasn’t there that long when I then got a job with the Norwich City Council as a rent collector. And from a rent collector I got to a housing inspector and that’s when I finished.
DK: So, looking back now, seventy odd years later how do you feel about your time in the RAF?
JW: Well. I must say I enjoyed it but when I, it’s funny at the time you don’t think about it but when I look back and I think of the times we took off. Look, every time we had a Cookie on board and a load of bombs and a full load of petrol and you then realise if anything had gone wrong on take-off that would have been the end anyway and —
DK: Did, did you think about those dangers at the time then?
JW: No. That’s what I’m saying. I didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At the time.
DK: It was full of petrol and high explosives.
JW: Yeah. I didn’t think about it at the time.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But it’s looking back now and —
DK: Do you think that’s because you obviously were a lot younger then? And —
JW: This is it. It was. Yes. Definitely.
DK: Don’t feel the dangers.
JW: And it’s the same I suppose over the target. You think it isn’t going to happen to us you know.
DK: It’s always going to happen to somebody else.
JW: Somebody else. Yeah.
DK: So how, did you stay in touch with your crew then afterwards?
JW: Well, it’s funny. I tried. I tried to contact them and I couldn’t and I, it all happened. I got, this is a long story really but I got an email from a girl whose father was at Waterbeach.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Oh, I said Feltwell. I meant Waterbeach.
DK: Ok.
JW: And she came over here with her mother. Her father had died. She came over here with her mother. Oh no. Her father hadn’t died then. She came over with her father and her mother to visit old places where he’d been and while they were here, her mother they were waiting for a train and her mother had a heart attack and died. And anyway, she then told me that she’d been in touch with several people at Waterbeach and as she heard that we’d been there did I remember her dad who had since died? But I said no. I pointed out that we were only there a short time. And anyway, she suddenly contacted me and said she had heard from a chap who was stationed at Waterbeach and he was trying to contact me. And she gave me his email address and I, I got in touch with him and he had moved from Canada to New Zealand. He’d married and moved over to New Zealand and he gave me an address, email address of someone. A museum in Canada where I might be able to contact the rest of the crew. So, I went on to this email and I couldn’t. There were pages and pages of people wanting to contact. And so I left a message. You know, “Anybody in Flight Lieutenant Elwood’s crew of 138 Squadron —” And I forgot all about it and suddenly I got an email, “I’m Flight Lieutenant Elwood’s son. Unfortunately, my dad has died.”
DK: Oh.
JW: And so —
DK: Do, do you know when he passed away? Your pilot.
JW: I don’t. No.
DK: No. No.
JW: No.
DK: Right.
JW: And at first, the pilot. The engineer had also died. I don’t know how I got in touch with his wife but no, I tried no end of times to try and get in. Even when I met Canadians over in Holland. So I left messages with them to, they were going to try and contact.
DK: You never got in contact with any of the crew then.
JW: No.
DK: No. That’s a shame.
JW: Only the navigator who —
DK: Oh right.
JW: He then, he couldn’t remember a thing about what we’d done.
DK: Oh right.
JW: He’d, he’d shut everything out.
DK: Can you remember the navigator’s name?
JW: Yes. Keith Evans.
DK: And was it Keith Evans who had gone to New Zealand then?
JW: Yes.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
DK: Yes.
JW: And then he, it was Keith Evans who got you in touch with the Canadians.
JW: No, not Keith. Johnnie. John Evans.
DK: John Evans. So, it was John Evans who went to New Zealand.
JW: Yeah.
DK: He was the navigator.
JW: He was the navigator.
DK: It was he who put you in touch with the Canadian Museum.
JW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So, did he, is he still alive or —
JW: No. He’s dead.
DK: Right.
JW: He died of cancer.
DK: Right. And, and he totally blocked out everything.
JW: He blocked out everything.
DK: So you never actually met him then.
JW: No.
DK: Just emailed communications.
JW: Emailed. He couldn’t remember. He couldn’t even remember us getting hit. He’d shut out, he said right from the start he had, he was seeing a psychiatrist or something. He’d shut everything out. All he could think of was the people he might have killed.
DK: Right.
JW: And he shut everything. In fact, he said, ‘Can you tell me about the hit? When we got hit.’ So I tried to tell him on an email as best I could but he couldn’t remember anything.
DK: Did you hear from him again after that? Once you two had —
JW: Oh, we corresponded.
DK: Right.
JW: Backwards, and you know quite regularly.
DK: And did any of it come back to him do you know?
JW: No. No. It’s funny. Operation Manna did.
DK: Right.
JW: He remembered that.
DK: But the, but the actual operations over Germany he’d blocked out.
JW: He couldn’t. No. Or he didn’t know. Whether he didn’t want to I don’t but —
DK: But you say he’s since passed away.
JW: He’s, he’s since died. Yeah.
DK: Ok. I think that’s probably enough. If I stop this now. Well, thanks for that anyway.
JW: Yeah.
DK: That’s really interesting. Thanks for your time.
[recording paused]
DK: So, your crew then. Left to right. So that’s you.
JW: That’s me. He, we called him Sealevel he was so short. He was Clark. L Clark.
DK: Al Clark. Yeah. So what, what he was then?
JW: He was the bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer, so and —
JW: Curly Watson. He was the engineer.
DK: So, he was the other English.
JW: Pilot. The other English chap. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve got sergeant.
JW: The first names I don’t. Bulward. his name was Bulward, definitely.
DK: Bill Ward.
JW: Bul, Bulward.
DK: Bulward. Right.
JW: They called him Bull, I think.
DK: Right. Bulward.
JW: That’s Keith Elwood.
DK: That’s, that’s the pilot.
JW: Pilot.
DK: Yeah. And then —
JW: That’s John Evans, the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And there’s Dave Richardson the rear gunner.
DK: Right. Ok. I notice on here. You mentioned a couple of the Cook’s Tours.
JW: Oh, yes. Yes.
DK: So, what did they involve then?
JW: That was, that’s funny. I had a, I don’t know whether I’ve still got the letter. I had a letter from, oh here it is, from a woman at Downham Market. It was in the book. Have you seen the book, “Yours.” There was a letter in there from this woman that when she was in the WAAFs she flew on a, what they called a Cook’s Tour. She said, “But nobody will believe me.” So I wrote back. Wrote and told her and said that was quite right and and I got a letter to thank me.
DK: So, did you do a number of the Cook’s Tour’s?
JW: Only two.
DK: And did, was there WAAFs on board yours?
JW: No. I can’t. In fact, one of them, one of them had ATC boys.
DK: Oh right. So, and can you remember whereabouts in Germany you went to see the damage?
JW: Oh, we went to Cologne. I can’t really remember now. Actually, it didn’t sort of —
DK: Right.
JW: I I can’t remember other than Cologne. Obviously, we went. What I can remember is coming back we flew, we circled around the Eiffel tower. I said, ‘Well that’s something nobody else had done.’
DK: So, what was people, what was the, the people on board, what was the reaction when you saw the damage on the cities down there?
JW: Well, I honestly, I can’t say what they because I suppose most of them were in the, they weren’t where I was because I was sitting at the, at my place and there’s no room for anybody else there but, so they were either in the cockpit standing where the pilot, behind the pilot or in the bomb bay or even some of them had a ride in the upper turret.
DK: And were they mostly ground crew then on the Cook’s Tours?
JW: Most of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can’t remember any WAAFs.
DK: Right. But you were able to confirm this WAAF that written it in. She’d written a letter then.
JW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I’ve got the, if I can find it here. That’s such a —
DK: Right.
JW: Picture. [pause] Oh you never, I don’t think you’d ever read it now. Oh, I must have thrown it away, I think. She put, “Dear Mr Webster, thank you for writing to the editors of, “Yours,” regarding the Cook’s Tours. I’ve received thirty letters from people who either went on one on the trip or verified they did take place. It brought back a lot of memories. One lady wrote to me from — ” I can’t see what it is, it’s gone. And told me there is a table in the Crown Hotel there with names of crews carved on it. I’d love to go back. I wish I had written down the names of the crew I flew with and the WAAF corporal. She passed out going over the Channel. It was quite [pause] especially when —”
[pause]
DK: Right.
JW: “When the pilot dived down at a ship. I’ve often wondered what the message was in code. I could see flashing. I also remember seeing Cologne Cathedral and Essex.”
DK: Essen.
JW: Essen. Oh yeah. Essen. I thought it was Essex. Essen. “I was posted to Bletchley Park after the trip and I was demobbed on the 11th of April ’46. I said I would never volunteer for anything again.” [laughs] Oh it goes on. It’s torn out.
DK: Does it have her name there? The lady’s name.
JW: Yours sincerely, Mrs K Dorrington.
DK: Dorrington.
JW: Queens Road, twenty. That’s from Epping in Essex.
DK: And what’s the date of the letter?
JW: 9.9.’95.
DK: Right. So, a while ago.
JW: Yeah. She was probably in a worst state than this letter you know.
DK: So you mention here Operation [Sun Bombs]. A trip to Castel Benito.
JW: Oh yes. I think that was to give us a holiday more than anything. We were there about three days. All we did was sit around the swimming pool and, well, and went swimming. And it’s funny there was a Flight Lieutenant Banbury who was in 138 Squadron and I’ll always remember he stood on the diving board and he did a dead man, you know where they [pause] I’d never seen it done before. But the funny thing is after I was demobbed I happened to see in one of the local papers that a Flight Lieutenant Banbury had been killed at Watton flying an Anson with some ground staff on board and he hit the caravan coming in to land.
DK: Oh right.
JW: To think he’d flown a Lanc and all that and got crashed off in an Anson.
DK: There’s two more operations here. You’ve got Operation Sinkum.
JW: Oh yeah. That that was just flying out over the Wash dropping a lot of the spare bombs. Old bombs.
DK: And then Operation Spasm.
JW: Yeah. That was a trip to Berlin.
DK: Oh right.
JW: The first ones that went they were lucky. They took cigarettes and bought them for marks and they came back and they could change as many marks as they liked. When we went we could only change back to marks what we’d changed. Took out.
DK: Right.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember where you landed in Berlin?
JW: Yeah. What was the name of it?
DK: Was it Templehof, was it?
JW: Temple. I think it was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. That’s the only one I can —
DK: So, you flew to Templehof and landed.
JW: Landed.
DK: In a Lancaster.
JW: In Lancs. Yeah.
DK: Oh right. And so what, what did you think of Berlin now the war’s ended and you’ve landed there in the centre of the city?
JW: I can’t remember much. We saw the Reichstag. We went to the Olympic Stadium. But apart from that I, I know I went in somebody’s bedroom. The chap, I was after stockings and he took me in to this, his wife was still in bed and he fished under the pillow and came out with these nylons for cigarettes. But —
DK: Was Berlin damaged? Was it?
JW: Well, it was what we saw of it. Yeah.
DK: And you didn’t see any Russians there or anyone or anybody else.
JW: No.
DK: So you were just in the British Sector.
JW: Just in the British Sector. Yeah.
DK: And was there many Lancasters on this trip to Berlin then to land there or, can you remember?
JW: Well, not from my squadron there wasn’t.
DK: No.
JW: I don’t know whether. I suppose other people, I don’t know if other people went there.
DK: Ok. Well, I’ll stop that. Thanks again. I’ll stop and turn it off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Webster
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWebsterJK161004
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:28 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Webster applied to join the RAF in December 1942 and attended a selection board at RAF Cardington, and was eventually called up in June 1943. After initial training he went to 4 Radio School at RAF Madley passing out from there with eighteen words per minute on Morse Code. From RAF Dumfries Advanced Flying Unit flying in Dominies and Proctors he was posted to 12 OTU Chipping Warden where he crewed up with a Canadian crew, his pilot Flt Lt. Keith Elwood. After completing their heavy conversion on to Lancasters at RAF Bottesford, they were posted to 514 Sqn at RAF Feltwell where they completed one sortie to a synthetic oil installation at Huls. He and his crew were then posted to 138 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham and carried out a further four sorties with them. He and his crew also took part in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. He left the RAF in 1947.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Herefordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
12 OTU
138 Squadron
1668 HCU
514 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
bombing
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Bottesford
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Dumfries
RAF Feltwell
RAF Madley
RAF Tuddenham
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1193/11766/AWhiteEJ161027.2.mp3
3926b8da0bcdd604b2a2db30b9c6032f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
White, Ernest James
E J White
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Ernest James White (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 9, 61 and 97 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
White, EJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So it’s turned up. So, it’s David Kavanagh on the 27th of October 2016 interviewing Mr James White at his home. I’ll just put that there. If I keep looking over I’m just checking to make sure it’s going.
JW: It’s very neat.
DK: It is isn’t it. Ok.
JW: It’s picking us both up is it?
DK: It should be picking us both up. Yeah.
JW: That’s alright then.
DK: Just to make sure.
JW: Well I want to tell you about, I’m going bang in to the middle. We can go back to the beginning later on.
DK: Yeah. Ok.
JW: This one sets the scene for the whole lot really.
DK: Ok.
JW: Now, how far shall I go back? I’d better give you a run. First of all I was posted to 44 Squadron at Waddington first of all. I was only there four days and they, they posted me to Syerston. 61 Squadron. I was, I did about six ops with them and then they posted me to Woodhall Spa, 97 Squadron. I did a few there. Then I got crewed-up with Bob Fletcher. And then one day sitting in the crew room the squadron commander comes in, got attention, he says, ‘Right. I’ve got an announcement to make. Every one of you have been, have volunteered for Pathfinder duties. We’re going to move down to Bourn in Cambridge.’
DK: Right.
JW: That was great that was. So the thing was as a, as we were now in 8 Group different rules applied apparently. Don Bennett.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Was quite a force to be reckoned with, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He did. He had a hell of a time with Sir Arthur from what I’ve read. Any rate, what happened was I’d done about sixteen operations altogether with odd crews before I was crewed-up. Then we moved down to Cambridge. Now, in Pathfinder force there is the normal tour is thirty operations. Which you know of course don’t you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Well, when I got to my twenty ninth the crew, the target was Hamburg actually, coming back I said to the pilot, I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘This is my last trip and it’s your last trip next time.’ He said, ‘Yeah. We’re all going next time.’ I said, ‘Right, I’m going to volunteer to do another one so we all go together.’ This you’ll understand is the spirit of crew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At that time you see. It’s madness really, you know. It really is madness.
DK: Yeah.
JW: To volunteer for an extra one. It was accepted. So I stayed on. And then they brought out this business of, in 8 Group if you’re in the Pathfinder force every operation you did counted as two. So instead of doing thirty you did, you did fifteen. Ok.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Right. I’m on my fifteenth now. I’m taking on now. Now this, sorry that was the crews at hand over. Right. Coming back I said to Bob, I said, ‘I’m really due to finish but I’ll stay on. I’ll volunteer.’ He said, ‘You can’t.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘Because the gunnery leader has taken you off the crew list already.’ Before we’d even, before we took off you’re off. ‘He knew this was your last one and he’s put himself in your place. So he’s going to fly in your place.’ I was only a flight sergeant at that time and you don’t argue with a squadron leader do you?
DK: No.
JW: So off I went. Well, I did go off actually. I went home actually. I came back. The next morning I got to Cambridge station, came out the station and I saw an RAF truck there. I said, ‘That’s funny. What’s he doing there? I’ll get a lift back into camp.’ So I went there. It was our favourite driver there. I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ He said, ‘I’ve come to meet you.’ Well that’s very odd. I don’t get that privilege. That sort of privilege.
DK: No.
JW: I said, ‘Why? He said, ‘Well, I’ve got some bad news for you. The crew didn’t come back last night.’
DK: Oh God.
JW: Because the gunnery leader insisted in flying in my place.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He’s the one who got killed. Not me. Now, that’s very strange.
DK: It is.
JW: Now, I’ve gone over this over and over again. I dream about it sometimes. I fantasise on it. The thing was, you see my position was right on top of the aircraft. Mid-upper gunner there. It so happened that I was the only member of the crew that had an anti-glare panel because I got kitted out somewhere else apart from them. Now, what happened, I saw, I saw the captain afterwards, after the war when he came out of the prisoner of war camp. He survived and he told me exactly what happened. He said they got caught in the master searchlight. You’ve heard of this I expect, have you?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Light blue and, you know and they got coned. Now, he’s, he’s an extraordinary pilot that man was. Extraordinary. And he got out of it. He flew out of it. Right. Quite incredible. Now, the thing is he told me that fighter that got them came down from above because he was going down you see. He’d come down like, which is extraordinary unusual because they usually come from underneath.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We are told that. We are told at the briefing they attack from underneath. They introduced that technique. The Luftwaffe at the time. So I’m sitting there in this. Now, I’ve got the anti-glare so when the searchlight caught us, kept down. I can still see. They can’t.
DK: Yeah.
JW: They were all blinded. They couldn’t see. Couldn’t see a thing. Couldn’t see the dials on the dash board. But the pilot, as I say he was brilliant. A brilliant pilot he was and he got them out of it but when he got to the, he got out of it, the searchlights, right, but when he got to the bottom he’d lost so much height he’s got to get back up again.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So he starts climbing like this and that’s when the fighter pounced on them. Now, I’m sitting on top. Anti-glare. I can see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now had I been there instead of this other chap. Would I have seen that fighter?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because we had quite a good crew. Well, an excellent crew actually and if I’d said to the pilot, ‘Dive to starboard,’ he would have gone down pfft. Down. He wouldn’t have been shot down probably. We don’t know that.
DK: No.
JW: We can’t tell that.
DK: Is it, is it something, were all the crew killed or [pause] yeah.
JW: But it does haunt you. It does. It is. I know just how close I was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: See. Having volunteered to do the bloody job he took me off. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t accept my offer. He went on it himself.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And he got, he got immediate. He was killed instantly by the fighter. And the navigator and the other gunner, the rear gunner they were all killed.
DK: Right.
JW: The other four escaped with parachute.
DK: Oh right.
JW: And became prisoners of war.
DK: Right. So, so four survived and three were killed.
JW: And I’ve seen them. Well, I haven’t see Jack Beesley. I’ve got a picture of him there. I’ll show you in a minute. And the engineer. But I’ve been in touch with the wireless operator for a long time but when they were in the prisoner of war camp I knew his wife because I used to visit. They live at Grantham.
DK: Right.
JW: Now, I was in Scotland at the time so I was, I did as many journeys as I could down to London. Getting off at Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Go and see them. Getting on the train and carrying on you see. That was very handy.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I kept that up for a long time. in fact, when, after the war when I was stationed in Germany at Munchen Gladbach I invited them out and they came out and spent a fortnight in Germany with me.
DK: Oh right. That’s nice.
JW: With his, with his two children.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So we had a close contact. That was our crew you see. You’ve probably heard stories like this before.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But this was absolutely true. Hang on a minute. Just a minute.
DK: What I’ll do, I’ll just stop there. I’m —
JW: Ok.
[recording paused]
DK: Put that back up there. Ok.
JW: You’ll be interested in this.
DK: Ok. Ah.
JW: Now, after the war, as soon as the war was over the RAF sent, sent Lancasters over to Germany to bring back the released prisoners of war.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now, that’s one of our Lancasters at 97 Squadron.
DK: Right.
JW: That, that was our bomb aimer Jack Beesley.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I don’t know who the other chaps are. I don’t remember the other chaps.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But from that picture I personally get a really strong feeling they were the men I knew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not the RAF today. These are the ones we knew. That, that encapsulates the spirit.
DK: Right.
JW: You’ve got there.
DK: Just for the benefit of the recording — so this is Lancaster PB422 of 97 Squadron.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And the person there is your —
JW: Jack Beesley.
DK: Jack Beesley. And he was your bomb aimer and that’s when he was returning.
JW: That’s right.
DK: As a POW.
JW: Yes. Yes.
DK: So I see there, the POWs have put various bits of graffiti on the aircraft.
JW: That’s [laughs] very typical I’m afraid. We, we were an irresponsible lot you know. Really.
DK: Did you go on any of the trips to pick up the prisoners?
JW: Sorry?
DK: Did you go on any of the trips to pick up the prisoners of war?
JW: Not me. No. I was out of Bomber Command.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I was in Training Command at the time.
DK: Ok. That’s a great photo isn’t it?
JW: Yeah. It’s a good one that.
DK: I always find photos like this where you see prisoners of war their faces always look very drawn. Very —
JW: Yeah.
DK: You can see he looks very, even there looks a bit tense.
JW: Actually I was told before they came home that he’d got religion while there.
DK: Right.
JW: It was the strain, you know. Things like that.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But I think, I think he probably got out of it at that time.
DK: That’s alright.
JW: The relief of being released.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Released from prisoner of war camp must have been enormous mustn’t it?
DK: It must have been. Yeah.
JW: Something I never experienced of course.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But they’re the chaps, these here, they’re the typical of what the, what the crews were in in Bomber Command days. In the war you know.
DK: They look so young.
JW: Yeah. Aren’t they? Yeah.
DK: I’m assuming he’s the pilot then who’s flown him back.
JW: Yeah.
DK: He’s shaking hands. That one.
JW: Yeah. It’s amazing isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: I think that’s a very good picture.
DK: Lovely picture that.
JW: Tells us an awful lot doesn’t it?
DK: Yeah. What, what another thing I wanted to ask just stepping back a bit and that was just for interest what were you actually doing before the war?
JW: What was I doing before the war?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Not much. I was a wages clerk with the Co-op.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: CWS Headquarters in London.
DK: Yeah. So what, what made you want you join the Air Force then?
JW: Well, it’s a long long story really. It started way back when I was, when I was a young lad. I had an uncle that lived at Mill Hill which is high ground overlooking Hendon Airfield.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And his house was on a bit there and I used to love going there because I used to see what was going on in the airfield down there. I think that’s where it started. But later on I got around to making models. I made a, I made a flying model of a Hurricane.
DK: Oh right.
JW: Out of balsa wood and things like that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it was always with me I think. Going back. Not overwhelming or anything like that at all but an interest. And, as a matter of fact, just after I left school at fifteen [pause] a bit older than that I was working at CWS, that’s right. I was in London. I went, I went to the Air Ministry which those days was down [pause] You don’t — no, you wouldn’t know the Stoll Theatre, would you? It’s gone.
DK: No. No. No.
JW: Demolished. It’s not where it is now. It wasn’t in Whitehall. It was down this road, down there, down the end there. I forget the name of it. I think it was called High Holborn come to think of it.
DK: High Holborn. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Anyway, I went there and asked about entry into the boy scheme at Halton. Commonly known as the Halton Brats.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And they gave me some books and papers and things to study for the entrance to them. Took them away. Got home then. Within a week or two war was declared and of course the scheme was stopped.
DK: Oh right.
JW: So I never got to it. The thing is had that not happened, if I’d gone to there and become a wireless operator what would I have been today? [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
JW: The fate plays some funny tricks doesn’t it?
DK: Yes. Yeah. So the war started then and presumably you were then called up. And then —
JW: Well, I didn’t get called up actually.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: What happened was that [pause] I’m trying to think of a reason but there was no reason. I just, I was up in London. I was working in London. So I took the afternoon off and went to the Joint Recruiting Centre at Edgeware.
DK: Right. Yeah.
JW: I went down there to Edgeware. But my people at the Co-op, they were very understanding. In fact I was one of the last of the males in the office left. All been called up, you see. I went up there to join the Navy.
DK: Oh right.
JW: Because my father was in the Royal Marines you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: So it was the natural thing to do. Now, this house was a requisitioned house and I remember it very clearly in my mind now. It was a long, you open the front door and there was a long passage down there. I walked down the passage. On the left hand side was the Navy office. On the right hand side was the RAF. I was just stepping over the threshold of the Navy one to join the Navy and there was this petty officer in front of a group of chaps there. He was bawling his heads off at them. That’s not my scene. So I turned around quickly and went in the other one. So that’s how I came to join the Air Force.
DK: It’s sort of fate again isn’t it? If it hadn’t have been —
JW: And they took my details down, sent me home and said, ‘Well, we’ll get in touch with you,’ and they did. They sent me a railway warrant to go to Oxford and I went, the Oxford Selection Board. I was down as training for a pilot. We all trained, all go for a pilot because nobody ever gets there. But we all go for a pilot. I went there, had a selection and they basically whittled it down, got me down as a wireless operator which was roughly what I was going to do in the original. So they said right, now I’ll give you another paper and said — oh I was sworn in. So I’m now a member. This is June 1941. Sent me home. Said, ‘We’ll call you forward.’ They did. They called me forward to report at Padgate up in Lancashire on December the 24th. Christmas. Christmas Eve [laughs]
DK: Oh dear.
JW: Any rate, I’d got the railway warrant so I got on the train. It was the first time I’d been on one of these trains and, I’d never done this before. In the compartment there was a couple there with their daughter. I remember that girl. Yeah. I never, I can’t remember her name. And of course those days there was no, not much catering on the trains. You took your own with you. They had their parcels and I had my parcel and we the three of us got together there and we, you know had a nice journey up there during which the lady said, said, ‘Are you going to Padgate?’ I said, ‘Yes’ She said, ‘Well, that’s not all that far from where we live.’ What’s the name of the place? It was a double barrelled name. I’ve forgotten it now. It’s quite a big place. She says, she wrote the address down and gave it to me. I put it in my pocket. She said, ‘If you can get off at Christmas come to us and you can come and stay with us over Christmas.’ I said, ‘Oh right,’ I thought. I got to Padgate and went through all the things there. Kit. I drew my uniform the morning, the next morning and then had to go to the tailors for alterations like they do. And then the corporal came out and bawled his head off and said, ‘Any of you chaps here live within fifty miles of here, can get home without using public transport you can have a weekend pass. Put your hands up.’ Up went my hand [laughs] I’m a bugger, you know really [laughs] He said, ‘Where?’ I said, ‘Newton le Willows.’ That was it. Newton le Willows. Newton le Willows. ‘Oh yeah, that’s alright.’ He said, ‘Right, he said, ‘Well, go to the guardroom at about 4 o’clock and pick up your pass. You go to, go to the tailors. I’ve given the tailor, I shall be giving the tailor priority for your uniform to be done. So you can go and get that first. When you get the uniform put it on.’ Went to the guardroom. It was dark by this time. Got to the guardroom. Got my pass. I walked out through the gate and there was a bus stop there. I said, ah good. A bus pulled up. He said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said ‘Warrington.’ Warrington. ‘Well you’re going the wrong way. It’s that way. We’re going that way.’ Oh. They put me on the right bus. I got to Warrington. I asked the way. They got me on a bus to Newton le Willows and they said, ‘Where do you want?’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got Newton le Willows.’ There was a woman sitting in front of me. Yeah. She turned around, she said. ‘Let me have a look at that. See if I can find it. Oh I know them.’ she said. ‘I’ll put you off at the right place.’ ‘Oh thank you.’ Got off there. Went to the front door. Knocked on the door. There was a pause. There was lot of furniture being moved around and everything. I wasn’t used to this at all. They said, ‘Come around the other side,’ but they, they entered their house through the side instead of in the front door.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s reserved for weddings and funerals. I spent the Christmas, I spent Christmas with them.
DK: Oh right.
JW: They gave me a couple of presents. A jar of Brylcreem.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And a packet of razor blades [laughs]
DK: Wonderful.
JW: [laughs] The great shame is because so many things were happening fast.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It skipped my mind. I should have written and thanked them for the way. I should have done that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it’s my sorrow that I didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I should have done. It’s very sad that was but then people were used to that sort of thing in wartime. And after, I was off to Blackpool in no time at all. Doing drill on the streets. God. [laughs] That’s another, that’s nothing to do with 97 Squadron. Nothing to do with Bomber Command at all. Oh dear.
DK: So at Blackpool then was that all the square bashing going on down there?
JW: That’s right, yeah. Yeah.
DK: Is that something you enjoyed or —
JW: I didn’t mind it at all really.
DK: No.
JW: You know the Air Force fitted around my shoulders like it was made for me. I never had any doubt whatsoever at any time.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And I’ve been very lucky. Well, what is luck and what is otherwise? It’s hard to say sometimes isn’t it?
DK: It certainly is. So from Blackpool then can you remember where you went on to after that?
JW: Well, they sent me down to Bournemouth [laughs]
DK: Oh.
JW: With seven other chaps. A holding unit. Now, at Bournemouth was Number 3 PRC personnel something. Reception. Personnel Reception Committee, Centre. This was, this was formed for the Empire Training Scheme. The chaps that had gone to Canada for training. They came back, a lot of them were already commissioned when they came back. They were commissioned before they came back.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So they sent them to Bournemouth to hold there until they could allocate them to whatever squadron. Where they were going to, you see. But I was there with these other chaps and we were just airman. Erks. I had a great time there actually. Oh yeah. I started life in the Air Force as an officer’s batman would you believe? [laughs]
DK: Really.
JW: It’s a good thing. I saw it from the beginning. I got a lot, a lot of experience I got there. Oh yes I did. Any rate from there they called me up one day on parade and they said report to so and so I went to the clothing section and they kitted me out with all the flying gear but it was all recycled from chaps that had been shot down and their families had sent their uniforms up. There was all stuff there and I got all the old stuff. I had Gosport tubing, you know. Before they had microphones. And, oh dear, and they gave me an extra kit bag. So I’ve got two kit bags now. From there they sent me to London. To a centre. Viceroy Court it was called. It was across the road from the entrance to the London Zoo.
DK: Right.
JW: And the London Zoo Restaurant was requisitioned for the RAF meals there. We were there, I was there for about two, only two, two or three days there. Then I, then they sorted me out and I was off to training at Morpeth.
DK: Right.
JW: Number 4 Gunnery School at Morpeth.
DK: So, at this point it was already, it had already been decided you were training as a gunner then.
JW: Well, when I went, when I was at Padgate we had tests there.
DK: Right.
JW: I got through the written test easy. But when it came to simulation and they give you earphones and they said, ‘We’re going to send a series of Morse signals,’ beep beep and another one beep beep. ‘Now, all you’ve got to do is mark on that sheet there whether they were the same or different.’
DK: Right.
JW: I buggered that one up [laughs] ‘We can’t put you for training for wireless operator because your Morse is not good enough.’ Fair enough. ‘So you’ve got two options. You can either re-muster to an air gunner or you can go home because you’re a volunteer.’
DK: Right.
JW: I hadn’t gone all that way to go home. That was ridiculous.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I said, ‘Right. I can be an air gunner.’ They said, ‘Righto.’ So off I go to Blackpool with all the other ground staff members to do the initial training which was quite an experience but not something you’d be interested in.
DK: No. Yeah.
JW: It’s not your, I’ll not take your time up. Eventually I went down to Bournemouth as I said and then went up to London. And then I went to Morpeth. Air Gunnery School. It so happened my uncle lived in Morpeth. That was handy [laughs] Anyway, we finished that training.
DK: So, if we just step back a bit. What was your training as a gunner? How did they train gunners?
JW: Well, we had, it was, it was a grass airfield.
DK: Right.
JW: It was a temporary thing there and the aircraft we had there nobody’s ever heard of them. They were called a Blackburn Botha.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was a swine and in the middle of winter and they, they were started with the, what they called a Coffman cartridge. A cartridge they put in the engine to fire it.
DK: Yeah
JW: And the damn thing wouldn’t start, you know. We had a hell of a bloody time but we got through that all right. And —
DK: So were you actually on, on the aircraft.
JW: Oh yes.
DK: Firing at targets.
JW: Oh yeah. We had target practice.
DK: Right.
JW: We had a Lysander. We were towing a drogue.
DK: Right.
JW: Way back there. And they told you mustn’t touch the guns until that Lysander’s passed. You see, you aim the drogue [laughs] They counted the holes after to see what score you got. So anyway, I got through there quite well apparently. Oh yes. From there along with another, a little cockney chap called George Dillon who we chummed up quite well. He was quite a lad he was. And we, both of us, this is where the strangeness comes in. We were both posted together to 44 Squadron at Waddington but we were given a weekend off. Now, a third chap, he came into this in that he was getting married that weekend. On this weekend leave. He invited us to his wedding. He lived in South London near where George lived. So I said, ‘Oh ok. I’ll come with you.’ I went. We went there. I don’t remember too much about the party. I don’t know. I must have slept, slept in the house there with them. I don’t remember. It was a bit vague. I think, I think I was a bit punch drunk at the time. I was in uniform at the time.
DK: It must have been a good party.
JW: White flash in the. Under training. Anyway, we were both posted to Waddington. We arrived, we got the train up on Monday to Lincoln and, ‘What do we do now? Just a minute.’ So I went to see the station master. ‘Can I use your phone?’ [laughs] Cheeky bugger wasn’t I? I rang the station. ‘I said MT section?’ Oh yes. I said, ‘You’ve got two people here at the station want transport to Waddington.’ ‘Right. We’ll send a truck down for you.’ They sent this little canvas covered 500 weight truck down and we went in there. Now, we got our tapes on now. I was a sergeant now you know. And went to the officer’s err sergeant’s mess. In our innocence and ignorance we both walked in to the sergeant’s mess. It so happened that the station warrant officer whose king on the station. He’s the station commander’s right hand man. He’s a very important man. He was sitting on a chair in the entrance there as we walked in and he bawled us out straight away. ‘Out.’ ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘You don’t go in your sergeant’s mess with your hat on.’ First black [laughs] At any rate, the next morning we were going to see the squadron commander. That’s that chap who was in the daylight raid on [pause] the only daylight raid the Lancasters ever did.
DK: Yeah. Nettleton.
JW: Diesel works. What’s the name of the place?
DK: Yeah. The MAN diesel works.
JW: He got quite famous actually.
DK: Is it Nettleton, wasn’t it?
JW: Nettleton. You’re right. Absolutely. I could never remember his name. Walked into his office and he had his cronies around him there. He had just got the VC. He was as happy in the clouds of course. Walked in. He said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘New arrivals.’ I said, ‘Yes sir. Could we have some leave please.’ [laughs] That was a thing I should have, ‘We haven’t had any leave since we finished training.’ He said, ‘Don’t you know there’s a war on?’ I said, ‘Oh. Oh is that why we’re here.’ He didn’t like me one little bit. Two days later I was posted [laughs] along with George. George, he was with me. We went to Syerston. 61 Squadron. That was a different kettle of fish altogether. Group Captain Walker, Gus Walker, he was the station commander.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He was a splendid chap. He’s what is known as an airman’s officer.
DK: Right.
JW: He’s with the lads. And I was there for a few months. Went there in September and I left there [pause] around about, around about Christmas time to go to Woodhall Spa. But we were wheeled in front of the station commander, Gus Walker. He was a very nice chap. He got off, up from his desk. Walked over to meet us.
DK: That’s nice.
JW: You don’t get that very often.
DK: No.
JW: That’s Gus. That set the scene.
DK: Because he lost an arm later on didn’t he? He was.
JW: I’m coming to that.
DK: Oh right.
JW: I was there.
DK: Oh right. Oh Christ.
JW: Yeah. Yes.
DK: So just stepping back a bit at 44 Squadron you hadn’t flown any operations at this point.
JW: No.
DK: So you’re now at 61.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And is this where your first operations took place?
JW: And I’ll never forget it.
DK: Right. Ok.
JW: It was Munich.
DK: Right.
JW: And I was terrified. Absolutely petrified. You see, try and imagine this you see. I was, I was what was called a spare and it filled any gap in a crew when a chap dropped out for some reason or other.
DK: Oh right. So you weren’t allocated an actual crew at this point.
JW: No.
DK: No.
JW: At any rate I was in the crew room there and my name wasn’t on the list to fly so, fair enough. And this chap came to me, he said, ‘Oh, you’re a spare.’ I said, ‘That’s right.’ ‘Well come with us to do a night flying test.’ Oh I don’t mind doing that. So I got my parachute. My parachute and the harness. Went out to the aircraft. We had a little run around Lincoln and that. Lovely. I was getting out the aircraft to get my stuff, he said, ‘I shouldn’t bother taking it out. You’ll be alright for tonight.’ ‘What?’ [laughs] I didn’t know their names. They didn’t know me even. There we are. I’m a stranger sitting there all on my own. My first op. And as far as I was concerned every, every ack-ack gun in Germany was stationed at Munich and firing at me personally. It was murder.
DK: And your position then is as the mid-upper gunner.
JW: Yeah. I did have a spell in the rear turret. I didn’t like it in the rear turret.
DK: No. So as a mid-upper gunner then, just for the tape, what, what’s your actual role there? Are you sort of a spare pair of eyes? Are you there making sure that everything was safe and ok? Looking out for dangers.
JW: Yeah. Well I suppose you could say, as it happened, only because it’s happened that way all I was, was an observer. I didn’t fired a bullet. In forty five operations I never fired a bullet. I never saw a German fighter. I never saw anybody. It’s pitch dark up there you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You know, you know. Your only enemy was your fatigue and the thing was trying to keep awake. It was terrible trying to keep awake and I evolved a method where I would count shooting stars. You’d be surprised how many shooting stars you get.
DK: Right.
JW: I used to count them and that kept me awake. Oh dear me. We had a flask of coffee along with our pack there we picked up in the sergeant’s mess. And one night, I remember true as I sit here, it was winter. That was bloody cold. Forty degrees below zero and a bit draughty too. Although I was in a Perspex bowl like thing where the joins are the wind finds it, finds a crack.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And you get this pfft on the back of your neck. It’s not pleasant. Pretty hard. Anyway, I got this flask. We were coming back actually by tradition nobody opened that flask until we were on the way back. I don’t know why. It was one of those things. Took this out, put the cup down like that, got the cork out, picked up the cup, went to pour it out. In that short time it had frozen solid in the flask.
DK: Oh.
JW: Hard to believe isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. That’s how cold it was.
JW: By the same token we were eventually issued with a new flying suit called a [pause] I forget what it was called. It was a Kapot lining and electric wiring all through it and it had a plug on the end. And you plugged it in to a socket in the turret so you’d got electric, heating. Luxury. Oh it was wonderful.
DK: I’ve heard different things about those. Sometimes they didn’t work and sometimes you got too hot.
JW: Ah, you’re right.
DK: Couldn’t get them just right.
JW: Well, course you put that on before you went out to the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now this would cover the whole of your body and at the bottom, on the heel, there were two press studs and you had a slipper that was also electrically heated and it plugged in. Ok. Just the heel there. Now, when you’re walking, you know, you move. You move your heel don’t you?
DK: Yeah.
JW: I found that out afterwards of course. What had happened was by walking with it, it had disturbed the wiring.
DK: Right.
JW: I don’t mean broke it. It shorted out anyway.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it started burning my heel. I mean, I couldn’t stand that so I had to switch it off. And when I switched it off I froze.
DK: Oh dear.
JW: It wasn’t a pleasant night [laughs]
DK: So at 97 then, can you remember how many operations you did from there?
JW: With 97?
DK: For example.
JW: Well, including the Woodhall Spa one.
DK: Although, oh have I jumped ahead. Hang on. Oh 61 sorry. How many operations did you do at 61? At Syerston.
JW: Oh about six.
DK: Six.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And you were going to mention about Gus and losing his arm.
JW: I did a few more at Woodhall Spa before I joined the crew.
DK: Right.
JW: I was in a crew room one day like you normally do. I hadn’t got a crew. I hadn’t got a job. I was just joined the mob there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And this flying officer walked up to me. I recognised his name because his name got around. He was on his second tour. He’d already done thirty and got the DFM.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember his name just for the —
JW: Yes. The name Fletcher.
DK: Fletcher.
JW: Bob Fletcher.
DK: Bob Fletcher.
JW: Robert Fletcher. Bob Fletcher.
DK: Right.
JW: He was a brilliant pilot. He really was. He was greatly underrated by the, by the authorities. He should have, he should have made quite advanced steps. He should have done. He was brilliant.
DK: So he, that was your first crew then was it?
JW: My first crew.
DK: You were no longer an extra bod.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JW: He came over to me and said, ‘I’m forming up a crew here. Would you like, would you like to join me?’ I said, ‘Oh yes, I would.’ With a reputation like he’s got. Dead cert. Ok. But it happens you see I was, once they had to do thirty and I was already one, one ahead of them by doing these other trips you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: Not that that mattered at the time. And then one day the squadron commander came into the crew room and said, ‘You chaps are all volunteers for Pathfinders.’ Oh thank you. So off we went to Cambridge. There’s a story about that. But if you want that I’ll give it to you but it’s nothing to do with flying.
DK: Can I, can I just go back one bit.
JW: Yes.
DK: At, I don’t know, I made a note of this. Where were we? [pause] It was at 61. You were at Syerston weren’t you?
JW: Syerston.
DK: And you mentioned about Gus Walker. His accident.
JW: Yes.
DK: And you said you were actually there when he —
JW: Yeah.
DK: What can you just tell us about that?
JW: Oh yes. I was going to tell you about that wasn’t I? I was there at the time. That’s right. Actually I was on leave when it actually happened but I got the full story first hand.
DK: Right.
JW: What happened was — bombing up the aircraft there was a slight hitch. One of the bombs fell off on to the ground. It burst into flames because it was one of those. It was an incendiary. And the word was sent to the flying control tower saying that there were no, there are no explosives on the aircraft. They said, ‘Incendiary.’ So the fire brigade went out there and that sort of thing. And it happened that Gus Walker was up in the tower at the time. The news came through. Straight away he said, ‘They’ve made a mistake. There is explosives on the aircraft.’ He dived down and got in his staff car and tore down to the aircraft and pulling the chaps out, ‘Get out, get out, get out of the way,’ he said, ‘It’s going to go off.’ And it did go off. And that’s when he lost his arm. Now, he went to hospital of course. At Nottingham. And a number of the ground staff were also badly injured. Some were killed, some were injured. They went into another ward of course. Now, the officer’s mess got together and funded a huge basket of fruit and things like that and sent it to him. When he, when he got to the hospital he said, ‘No.’ he said, ‘Take that down to the ward to the airmen.’ He is an airman’s officer. He was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He was a great chap.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve, you’ve then gone to Woodhall Spa. After Syerston was it Woodhall Spa did you say?
JW: Yeah.
DK: And that’s where you met Bob Fletcher.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And so how many operations did you do with Bob and the crew there?
JW: I must check. I’ll look that up.
DK: Ok.
[pause]
JW: Won’t take a minute.
DK: No worries.
[recording paused]
JW: Let’s see. Where are we? 97 Squadron. Woodhall Spa.
DK: Ok.
JW: One, two, three, four, five, six. No, that wasn’t. No. Five.
DK: Five.
JW: That, that was at Bourn. The last trip I did at Woodhall Spa was to Spezia.
DK: Right.
JW: That was ten and a quarter hours.
DK: Oh. That’s a long time.
JW: Now, I’m going to tell you a story now. Are you ready for this one?
DK: Yeah. Go on then.
JW: Well, this was a long stretch to Spezia. It’s about half way down the west coast of Italy. It was an important submarine base at that time and we were tasked to go down there at the request of the Navy. Obviously, because of the submarine menace.
DK: Can I just close the window because there’s some sound coming?
JW: Of course.
DK: Through there. It might be affecting the, the old recording a bit.
[pause]
DK: Just that there’s some sound coming through. Sorry.
JW: That’s alright.
DK: You were on your way to Italy.
JW: Yes. We got half way across the alps. In fact I remember seeing Mont Blanc in the distance. Over there. It was still, we were above it so we were alright. And doing my usual searches like what my job was, it was a clear night and I saw this stream coming out of one of the engines there. What the hell is that? So I reported it. I said, ‘This is peculiar.’ There was a pregnant pause then and the engineer, the engineer Joe, he was brilliant too. We were all brilliant. Anyway, he came through to us, ‘I’m sorry lads. I’m sorry. I’ve made a mistake.’ He was then doing his usual converting the [pause] not converting [pause] moving fuel from the outer.
DK: Changing.
JW: To the empty inner.
DK: Right.
JW: Had been used up.
DK: Right.
JW: Unfortunately he picked the wrong one and the one he was putting it in was already full. So the petrol he was pumping in to it was just going straight out the overflow. And that’s what I could see. This stream. All this stream down there.
DK: So it was petrol.
JW: We lost about two hundred gallons of fuel.
DK: Oh no.
JW: Which we could ill afford to lose on a trip to Spezia.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So it was, there was a little bit of, up in the front in what we called the office while they were working out what they’re going to do. And Bob said, Bob made the decision of course, as he should do being the pilot. Carry on. We’ll take our chances. Now, the rest of us knew that we were going to come down in the drink somewhere. We hadn’t got enough to get back home. We came back over the Bay of Biscay actually. We did our job. We bombed the bloody place. Coming back, and old Joe as an engineer he was absolutely brilliant. He was. He was good. A lot older than the rest of us. He was like a grandfather to us. Joe. I can’t think of his other name. Oh wait a minute. I’ve got it here. [pause] He’s not on here. That’s funny. That’s very strange.
DK: There’s some names on the back there. He’s not, not there is he?
JW: Ah.
DK: As the —
[pause]
JW: No. This is a different crew.
DK: Oh.
JW: I was flying with a different crew there. No. No. I thought he was bound to be on there. No. I’m afraid I don’t remember his name now. I’ve got it somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But I can’t put my finger on it at the moment. No. Sorry, I can’t help with that.
DK: No. But he was a good flight engineer then was he?
JW: Flight engineer.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But he’d be dead by now. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
JW: I’m ninety four so, and I was only a kid to him. Time has taken its toll. That’s the original logbook.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Which is a disgrace so I copied it into another one.
DK: Ah.
JW: This is cleaned up, this is. I cleaned it up. Oh that’s old Bennett.
DK: Yes. So just going back to your trip to Italy. You’ve lost two hundred gallons.
JW: Yeah.
DK: You’ve obviously made it back to the UK.
JW: We did.
DK: You did. So —
JW: Without getting our feet wet.
DK: Yeah. So that was really down to the flight engineer then. Managing.
JW: Oh absolutely.
DK: Managing the petrol.
JW: He was brilliant.
DK: Down to the last.
JW: How the hell he managed to. He must have been, he must have been feeding petrol vapour into the engines.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I don’t know. He was very good. He saved us all. But that’s our crew you see. We were like that.
DK: So, from, so you’re with 97 Squadron at Woodhall Spa and then you said you’d then gone to the Pathfinders.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And you were basically told to go there. You were just ordered there. So no, no volunteering or anything.
JW: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And you’d gone to Bourn at that point.
JW: Well, yes. The mathematics is a bit hard to explain really but as we were getting towards the end of my time — oh yes. I forgot to mention this. One of the concessions we had in Pathfinder force was we were allowed to count each trip as two . So a full tour would be fifteen and not thirty.
DK: Right.
JW: That saved my life didn’t it? And that’s how I came to finish early.
DK: So you did forty five operations altogether.
JW: Forty five.
DK: Forty five. Yeah.
JW: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And were you with the same pilot? Fletcher. At Bourn.
JW: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Bob Fletcher. Yeah I picked him up. I’ve got it in here somewhere. I picked him up actually — let’s see now. A lot of rubbish in here. Flying officer. He was a flying officer at the time. Here we are. Oh yes. I had three trips with a crew but they had just about finished. They had, they had done twenty seven. They needed three more to do.
DK: Right.
JW: They did the three and they finished. So once again I was back in the pool.
DK: Right.
JW: Lennox was his name.
DK: And that was 97 again was it?
JW: Yeah. So I picked up Bob Fletcher. The first trip with him was St Nazaire. That was the target.
DK: Have you got a date for that?
JW: On the 2nd of April 1943.
DK: Right.
JW: Yeah. We dropped, we dropped eleven one thousand pound bombs. Eleven. Oh well, that’s what it says there. Who am I to argue? Yeah. And thereafter we were in, in the thick of it with all the others. Bob, quite rightly got promoted to flight lieutenant around about [ pause] let’s have a look. God, they took a long time promoting him didn’t they? He should have got it. Well I’m blowed. I never knew it took that long.
DK: That long. Longer than you thought.
JW: He’s still flying officer.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. He’s still flying officer. Well I’m blowed. Yeah. I don’t understand this.
DK: It’s a bit later on than you thought.
JW: Unless I missed it. Ah I’ve got it. The first time he flew as a flight lieutenant was the 27th of August ’43.
DK: Right.
JW: That’s right. And the target was Nuremberg. We dropped one four thousand pound bomb, three one thousand pound bombs and five target indicator marks. Markers. A little story about that really. PFF wasn’t the original title promoted. When [pause] who was promoting it? I think Sir Arthur Harris. That’s right. Or was it? No. it was Churchill I think. Churchill promoted the idea. Sir Arthur was against it because he didn’t want to have an elite corps. He said, ‘No. They’re all good. It’s not right.’ But he did give in and they formed the new group called 8 Group. And then the controversy got worse when Donald whats-his-name.
DK: Bennet.
JW: Yeah. He was a brilliant navigator. He had it in his fingertips there. And the Air Ministry promoted him above all the other air marshalls. Made him an air vice marshall in one leap like that and it upset the apple cart quite a bit you know. He wasn’t popular by any means. They all, they all admit he was brilliant. He was very clever. But they couldn’t get along with him at all.
DK: No. No.
JW: But that’s how the story goes. A bit beyond me of course.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah.
DK: As, in the Pathfinder force then what was the, just for this really, what was the sort of role of the Pathfinders as opposed to the main force? What did they —
JW: Ah yes. Yeah. Well the evolution of this was quite interesting. They, the original title was Target Finding Force. They didn’t like that. They said, ‘No. No. The others are just as good. So then they accepted they marked the route to get there.
DK: Right.
JW: Which was just as important as actually getting, I mean if you could find the place in the first place, you know. So it was named Pathfinder force. We were doing the course out. We dropped the markers along like.
DK: Right.
JW: And it was arranged by careful timing that the whole of the force doing target finding, there was our squadron and 35 squadron at Graveley and there was another squadron at Wyton who timed. Each aircraft had a specific time to be there.
DK: Right.
JW: So that he dropped his target and it burned for a few minutes but it’s going to go out. So the next one that comes along he tops it up.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So that. Very clever.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It worked.
DK: Did your aircraft then act as an initial marker? Or were you backing up or dropping the flares along the route?
JW: Well, we were all backers up really.
DK: Right.
JW: I suppose. But I mean it varied. It depended on the plans. The plans were all worked out at headquarters.
DK: Right.
JW: We were just given the orders you see.
DK: Right.
JW: We didn’t actually have to find the target. We didn’t need to look far. You could see the bloody thing there. I mean, the Mosquitoes in Pathfinder force, they were using a new secret arrangement called Oboe. Two transmitting stations sent out a beam like that. Right. Ok. And the aircraft followed it in. If they veered too much to one side they got a beep. And another one. They kept on track there. And then they gave a signal. This one here would be to keep them on track. This one here would tell him when to drop the bombs.
DK: Right.
JW: And it was extremely successful but of course they’re just flares went down. Parachute flares. Things like that. Then the rest would come along in an orderly way as far as we could make it. Just kept it going. In fact quite often when we, when we arrived there they’d been bombing for the last half hour. I mean it was well ablaze you know. There it is. But then of course the defences were alerted by that time. Oh dear it would get hot some times. Bloody Hell it did.
DK: So you never got attacked by a fighter then at any time.
JW: No.
DK: But was your aircraft hit by flak?
JW: I would have welcomed one because I was so bloody bored sitting there.
DK: Was your aircraft hit by flak at all on occasion?
JW: We got away with it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was bloody amazing how we got away with it but we did until that last trip when I wasn’t on it.
DK: And was that Fletcher’s crew that went?
JW: It’s, it’s an incredible story really when you think about it. When you leave here and you’re going home think about it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I mean, the chances of that happening were so remote. I shall never forget it of course. Where are we now?
DK: Where are we now? That’s straightforward. So —
JW: Do you want some amusing stories now do you?
DK: Just one other question before we move on.
JW: Yes. Go ahead.
DK: It’s as you’ve landed and you’ve come back and the operations finished. How did you feel as you landed on the way back?
JW: How did we feel? We were bloody pleased. I’ll tell you one thing to correct. There’s a very good film. Commercial film. What’s it called? “Night Bombers,” I think it’s called.
DK: Oh yes. Yes. Yes.
JW: And at the end, at the tail end of that film the crew landed and they’re getting out of the aircraft and the voiceover said the first thing they do is to light up a cigarette.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Balls. The first thing you did was go down to the back end of the aircraft and pee up against the tail wheel. You’ve had nine hours without going to the [laughs] I don’t know if anybody’s ever told you this but there is a chemical toilet, elsan toilet.
DK: Elsan.
JW: In the aircraft.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. You never used that then?
JW: Of course not. It’s bloody silly. Can you imagine? There we are. Pitch dark. We had to have our oxygen mask on. Full clothing on.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Fumbling around trying to get — oh it’s ridiculous. They even had a separate can of fluid to top it up, there was.
DK: No.
JW: And after the war when they used the Lancasters to take the ground crew out to, on a sightseeing] to see what we’d done during the war.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Including taking the WAAFs as well. Because the WAAFs were there they put a screen around the [knocking on door] Come in. [pause] They put a screen around the toilet.
Other: Sorry to disturb you. Are you keeping an eye on the time?
DK: Oh. Alright we’ll come down. Ok.
Other: No problem. See you in a few minutes.
JW: I’ve told them to come. You’re having lunch.
DK: Yeah. Oh excellent. Oh great.
JW: I’ve forgotten what it is. Mine is pork bake. I don’t know what the bake is but I know what the pork is. I don’t know what the bake is though. And what’s the other one? I’ve taken the one anyway.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Shall, shall we pause there then?
[recording paused]
DK: I’ll tell you why. Because that was going to be my next, next question really was —
JW: Yes ok. You go ahead. Fire away.
DK: How you look back on that now and what do you miss about that period?
JW: Yeah. Well it’s, it’s very difficult to answer because it’s, there are so many aspects involved you see. I had two [pause] three, three separate careers really. First of all aircrew which was one life. Then when I finished, when they took me off aircrew I was on Training Command. That’s another life. And then eventually I was made redundant from supply because they were running down. And, being interviewed by a squadron leader I was, I don’t know if it’s got it on there but I was sent to an RAF station. We didn’t have any aircraft. What was the name? Somewhere in Leicestershire. Oh God what was the name of it?
DK: Bruntingthorpe.
JW: That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s where the jet engine was developed.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: That’s right. I was sent there as another holding unit and in the interview he said, ‘What skills have you got?’ I said, ‘Nothing really. I never got around to doing skills.’ So he said what is your hobbies and things?’ I said, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I’m very keen on, on the railway organisation.’ He said, ‘Are you?’ I said, ‘Yeah. I’ve got a copy of the Bradshaws timetable. The old original one.’ You know, a big one like this. The chaps knew I had this and if they had wanted to go somewhere they used to come to me and say, ‘Would you plot the route for me?’ And I used to go through it. It is a work of art going through that book. It was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And later LNER, LMS, Great Western.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That sort of thing, you know. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Well look, I’ll tell you what. I’m going down to London this weekend and I’ll pop into the Air Ministry and speak to the Movements chaps there and see if they can find you a slot.’ Now, I took that with a pinch of salt. I mean how am I going to? How shall I be that lucky? So, I said, ‘All right.’ And nothing happened for about a month and then I was called forward, out again. The chap said I’d got to report to the order room. I went, ‘Alright.’ And he said, ‘You’re posted to Euston Station.’ ‘To Euston?’ ‘Yeah.’ He gave me all the documents and off I went. Got to Euston station there and I asked to speak to the chap in charge. He didn’t know anything about this posting at all. He said, ‘I don’t know anything about it, at all. Maybe it’s our admin people over the road. I did. They didn’t know anything either so they rang up the movers in the Air Ministry. They said, ‘We’ve got this guy here,’ and I heard one side of the conversation. They must have said, ‘What’s he like?’ He said, ‘Oh, he looks alright.’ Oh thank you. They said, ‘Right, tell him, tell him to go to Victoria station. Report to flight lieutenant,’ what was his name, Orange. ‘Flight Lieutenant Orange.’ Ok. I went there and he was a nice chap. He was auxiliary.
DK: Right.
JW: Not in the full RAF.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And he had a lot of experience just lately of young officers, young aircrew officers no more use for them.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because they were running down and they went there and just sort of abused the situation. Did nothing, you know. Sort of went off and things like that. And he said and he was quite amazed when I asked him, ‘Can I do this?’ Can I do the other? I said, ‘I’d better go and see the station master, hadn’t I?’ He said, ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Well, it’s normal isn’t it?’ I was treating it as an RAF station. I went to see him. I wish I could remember his name. He was a typical, typical station manager. Pin striped trousers.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Bowler hat and [laughs] and we got on famously because we were chatting about things a bit, you know. At any rate a few days later I met him on the forecourt. I was wandering around. I did a lot of wandering around picking up information you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: He said, ‘I’m coming down. I’m going to see off the Golden Arrow,’ he said, as his job, a Prestige. Two. There were two Prestige trains in Victoria. One was the Golden Arrow. It went to Dover and then across to Paris. And the other one was the night sleeper. It went and left about 7 o’clock and the whole train was shipped across.
DK: Right.
JW: It was. So you, and it was all first class, Pullman and that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now both trains because they were Prestige trains he thought it was his business to go and see them off and he took me along with him. And I thought that was lovely. A very nice gesture. I enjoyed that. He said, ‘What are you doing here any rate at 7 o’clock in the evening?’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got nothing better to do.’ He said, ok. ‘Cause I, I was living with my family. My mother’s family.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At Enfield which is about twelve miles north of London. Yeah. There was nothing for me to do. So he said, ‘That’s great,’ and we got talking about things. One thing and another. We got along famously and then one day I do my usual walking over the concourse there and there was a hell of a bloody great queue to get tickets from the ticket office there and I spotted an RAF uniform in there. He had a collar on. A white collar on. I thought I’d better have a look at this. So I went across, and I said, ‘Excuse me sir.’ And I introduced myself. I had a red armband on you know. ‘Can I help you?’ He said, ‘Well I think you can,’ he said, ‘I’m the chaplain to the senior chaplain of the RAF and he’s going on a, he wants to go on a tour of Europe to visit all the RAF stations in the occupation zone.’ The occupation days that was you see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: He said, I’ve got, I’ve, got to get, ‘I’ve got to get — he sent me to do all the bookings. Get all the tickets and that sort of thing,’ he said. I said, ‘Well you’re in the wrong bloody queue aren’t you at any rate? That’s for inland routes. Come with me.’ I took him around to the other station where the continental booking office was. I don’t know if you remember this in Victoria. They had two different booking offices.
DK: I do actually. Yes. Yes.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
JW: Well we were in the original one. Our office. RTO’s office. And they had been moved to the back of the refreshment bar there at the end of the concourse. And I took him around the back, knocked on the door and who should open the door but this ex-ATS girl who was on the staff with us there. And she got a job with the railway in the booking office. That was jolly nice. And we had a little chat and I said, ‘Look I’ve got a padre here who wants this, that and the other,’ I said, ‘Can I leave him with you?’ She said, ‘Oh leave him with me.’ So he left and I walked on. Some little while later. I think a month later or something, I think I had a call from this, his name was Dagger, Reverend Dagger.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And he said, he wanted to thank me very much. ‘You saved my bacon,’ or whatever he was saying. He said, ‘It all went swimmingly. That girl was wonderful. She knew her onions. She knew her railways anyway.’ She fixed him up with everything. The lot. He went off with a bundle and off he went. The chief had a lovely tour around there and that was that. That was fine. A good job. A good job I had done. It had its ramifications later on. I’d met my wife in the meantime in Jersey.
DK: Yeah.
JW: At the West Park Pavilion dance place there. It so happened by sheer coincidence she, my wife had previously been in hospital with some fever. What’s it called?
DK: Scarlet fever or, scarlet fever.
JW: You’re right. Scarlet fever. And she recovered now but her aunt lived in Jersey with her husband who was a Jersey man. And she invited her, my wife, to go over to stay with them a little while to recuperate.
DK: Yeah.
JW: So they set off. Her, her younger brother Derek who was a tall chap.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And her best girlfriend across the road. Audrey. The three of them. How the hell they managed to go through all the rigmarole of travel to get to Jersey but they did it. And any rate the first night I was there I’d been over, I went over previously in February just to have a look at the place. And I was very pleased with what I saw and I thought this is a place for a holiday. Soon as I got back I had a chat to my roommate there. He was an army officer. I said, ‘We ought to go and have a holiday there you know.’ He said, ‘Right.’ So we arranged to have our leave at the same time. I took him down to Paddington. There’s another route from Paddington to Weymouth.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We went that way.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Took him there. I said, ‘Do you know, I’m going to take you to the Palais,’ because servicemen always do that. The way you meet girls was at dances, you know. And I took him along there. When we got there it was, we were a bit early and the band was just coming on with their instruments and things and there was hardly anybody there. But I noticed at the far end, up that end there were three people sitting there. Two girls and a chap. I thought, as all servicemen do, look around for what they called an available bit, you know [laughs] And I thought she’s nice. I like that. So as soon as the band got themselves together and struck up for the first dance I walked across in uniform. The full, the full regalia. And I remember clearly for the first time in my life I was full of confidence. I don’t know how it happened. I felt, it was the uniform I think. I always felt good in uniform. I strode across with all the confidence in the world. ‘May I have this dance please.’ She said, ‘Oh yes.’ Got on the floor and she was light as anything. She was a beautiful dancer. I thought, you know, I can’t, I’ve got to say something. You’ve got to have a conversation haven’t you when you’re dancing?
DK: Yeah.
JW: So I said to her the usual thing, ‘Are you a local girl?’ ‘Oh No. No. No. I’m here on a holiday.’ ‘Oh, are you? Where are you from?’ She said, ‘Nottingham.’ ‘Oh, that’s my favourite city.’ And it was.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I loved it. I was telling the truth, I loved it because I was at Syerston you remember. That was their watering hole.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Nottingham. And I said look I’ve got my mate down the bottom there and we’ve got a jug of claret cup which is what they do there. Instead of having drinks they give you a big glass jug and they mix it up. Half of it is claret and half is lemonade.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Top it up.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And they serve it up with glasses there and you just help yourself when you want it. Not a bad idea. I said, ‘We’ve got a claret cup already.’ I said, ‘Can I ask you who are those people? Who is that chap?’ ‘That’s my brother.’ Oh that was, I’ve heard that before. Anyway, I said, ‘Well come down and join us.’ She brought them down shared a nice little foursome there, you know. It was quite jolly. A nice evening. And we all disappeared and afterwards and I saw her home. St Aubin. She lived in St Aubin, that’s right. Up there. I made a date for the following day and she turned up at the weighbridge there and I didn’t, I hadn’t planned anything. It was unusual. I’m a great planner and I hadn’t. I don’t know why. Anyway I said, ‘Let’s get on a bus and have a ride,’ So we got on a bus, took her back to where she was at St Aubin. We got on another there took us down to a little bay which I’d discovered. There was a big bay called St Ouen’s. Huge thing. And the island’s prestige hotel called L’Horizon. The Horizon. L’Horizon it was called.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It was a good five star hotel. Very good. Very top class you know. Now, as that bay goes around when it gets to this side here instead of going around there it ended in another little bay called Ouaisne. And we had a bus. Went from St Aubin to this place. We went down there and sat on the sand there. Had a little cuddle. Sat reading and things like that and on the point as this little bay went around the corner there was no beach but there was a whole pile of rocks been worn smooth by the water over the years. And I loved walking over them, climbing over them, you know. So I had a little walk around, came back and said, ‘Its nice around there you know. Do you want to have a look?’ And she’s a game girl. She always was. She came with me. We were climbing over these rocks. We found a little spot there. There was one big shiny smooth slab there slightly inclined. Well that’s just the job isn’t it? So we got on there and had a cuddle on there and spent the whole afternoon there. And I took her to the back as the tide was coming in. We just got around the corner before the tide cut us off actually and got on the bus back in. And I made a date for the next day. This went on for a fortnight.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Every afternoon bar one I took her out. We were getting thicker and thicker and thicker you know. She was lovely. And very, well the only way I can explain is it was compatible if you know what I mean.
DK: Yes.
JW: I felt at home and at ease.
DK: At ease. Yeah. That’s important though anyway.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Feeling at ease.
JW: Going back to the bus at weighbridge and she sat there and I sat here and I was getting very embarrassed because she kept looking around and gazing at me all the time. I’m not used to this. Then we got talking. I asked her how old she was. She said she was sixteen. Oh my God. I’m cradle snatching.
DK: So how old were you at the time then?
JW: I was twenty five at the time.
DK: Oh ok.
JW: A bit too old for a sixteen year old. And she was messing up. She was pulling my leg. She wasn’t. She was twenty actually.
DK: Oh that’s ok then.
JW: Yeah. But it made my heart sink you know. Particularly with this gazing at me all the time. I thought oh bloody hell. I’m not used to this. Anyway, we got around that alright. Then we got settled in very nicely. Now, when it came to the end of the holiday she had to go back because she was booked to go back on the boat on the, on the Saturday. Butch and I were going back on Sunday. The day after. So I had my last afternoon with her on the Friday before. Instead of catching the bus back I said, ‘Let’s walk around the point and have a look around there.’ We walked around the point. We found another little bay, a little bay there and there was a little island there all on its own with trees and everything on it. I said, ‘I’ve never seen anything like it. This is lovely.’ I said, ‘I’ve got the urge to swim in the skinny.’ So I took my things off. I said, ‘Are you coming?’ She said, ‘No. No. I’ll stay here and read.’ I said, ‘Ok.’ So I went in and I was swimming around. Lovely. And I came out. The sun was shining and I was warming up. She was laying there and I laid down beside her. Now the rest of it is a bit personal.
DK: Say no more.
JW: Except to say that we only cuddled. Nothing else.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I don’t know what got over me that times.
[recording paused]
DK: So its back on again. It’s been off. Don’t worry.
JW: Well, he successfully baled out.
DK: So if I could just recap there. So Wally Layne was the wireless operator.
JW: That’s right.
DK: And —
JW: He was a warrant officer at the time.
DK: He was a warrant officer.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And he baled out.
JW: Right. Well he survived the parachute jump alright and he started what they call evading. It was our duty to evade if you could and he spent a week. All he had was the escape kit that we were all issued with.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It had things like a tube of condensed milk, some chewing gum. Bits. And vitamin tablets. Things like that to help us. And what he could pick up on the way wasn’t very much. I think he said turnips he managed to get hold of. Anyway, after a week he was so weakened by this that he decided he’d had enough. He was a prisoner of war. He staggered out in to the street and fell in to the arms of the first person he could find who happened to be a policeman. The policeman invited him to the hospitality of a prisoner of war camp. And when he got to the prisoner of war camp he got to the gate going in, from what he was telling me, he got to the camp and the first person he saw there was our previous navigator who’d been shot down in another plane. They laughed their bloody heads off [laughs]
DK: So can I ask who survived the shooting down then? The wireless operator, Wally and the pilot?
JW: Yeah.
DK: Fletcher. And there was two others who survived the —
JW: The bomb aimer.
DK: The bomb aimer.
JW: That’s that chap.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember his name?
JW: Jack [pause] bloody hell.
DK: I think we’ve got it.
JW: I think it’s somewhere on there.
DK: I think we’ve got it on there. The bomb aimer. Because he’s the one on the photo.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And who else survived?
JW: Yeah. I can’t think.
DK: So the wireless operator, pilot.
JW: And the engineer.
DK: And the flight engineer.
JW: That was Joe. And I can’t think of his surname.
DK: Joe. Right.
JW: Joe. The older chap. He was like the father to us. We were all a lot younger than him.
DK: So the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner.
JW: The rear gunner was killed instantly. The mid-upper gunner who was the chap who took my place, he was killed instantly.
DK: Can you remember the name of the rear gunner?
JW: And our replacement navigator. He was killed also. That just left the four of them.
DK: Right. So the rear gunner, mid upper gunner and the navigator were killed.
JW: And the navigator.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember the name of the rear gunner?
JW: Yeah. Harry Page.
DK: Harry Page. And the navigator. What’s his name? It doesn’t matter.
JW: He wasn’t with us. He wasn’t one of the original crew. He was a replacement.
DK: Right.
JW: Our proper navigator had been taken away from us and put into another crew. Took one particular operation and was shot down. So we lost him.
DK: Right.
JW: So they gave us a new navigator. I should know that name. I’ve got it somewhere.
DK: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. And I notice you were at Kinloss in October, November ’43. Is that when the plane crashed with the cadets on board?
JW: Yeah.
DK: So, we didn’t actually record that unfortunately. You couldn’t tell the story again could you? So you’re on a Armstrong, was it a Whitley?
JW: Yeah.
DK: A Whitley.
JW: Armstrong Whitley. That’s it.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Terrible plane. Oh terrible. Used to fly like that [laughs] In point of fact it was so bloody slow and underpowered.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That as I said that runway went out to sea. If we’d got an inshore wind like this the chap up here would do this for a lark, he’d put the throttle right back. Almost stall. And he would hover like that. The wind [laughs] Oh no.
DK: So how many, how many air cadets were on board? How many air cadets were on board at the time?
JW: Oh I don’t know. It was all shrouded in memory. I can’t remember. I’m guessing. I think there was some female cadets. Did they have female cadets?
DK: Probably didn’t.
JW: There must have been. But I don’t remember. I should say about four. Four or five.
DK: And you came down in the sea there.
JW: In the sea.
DK: Yeah
JW: Yeah. Landed in the sea. Wheels up. As I say the water was only four feet deep.
DK: So the dinghy came out by itself then.
JW: The dinghy came out on its own. We grabbed the dinghy, put all the kids in and pushed it ashore [laughs] When I think about it was bloody funny you know. It wasn’t very funny at the time but there we are. Oh dear me. It’s a story that nobody believes of course. Oh dear. Although, It’s funny enough though a few years back I took my son up to Scotland as I told you. And one of the, one of the reasons was that I’d made arrangements to take him to Kinloss to see the airfield here I flew from.
DK: Right.
JW: And we got off the train at Forres . The station at Kinloss had been closed. RAF Kinloss had its own railway station on this line. This was the main line from Inverness to Aberdeen.
DK: Yeah.
JW: We used to have a little station there called Kinloss and there was a footpath we used to walk across, over the fence and we were in the airfield. It was very handy. Getting back late, you know [laughs] At any rate where was I? Oh yeah. Kinloss. I forget. I’ve lost my trend. Jack Beesley, that was the chap’s name. Beesley. Jack Beesley.
DK: And he was the —
JW: Got it?
DK: He was the —
JW: He was the bomb aimer.
DK: He was the bomb aimer and he survived.
JW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Yeah. He did.
DK: So, after the war then, did you stay in touch with any of the four surviving crew at all?
JW: Sorry?
DK: Did you, did you stay in touch with the, with your crew after the war?
JW: No.
DK: No.
JW: Because we went our ways. We were all over the place. Joe came somewhere up near Bolton. Somewhere like that. And another one came from Birmingham. Who was that? [pause] Harry Page came from Bristol.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Wally Layne, Grantham. Bob Fletcher, he was at Burton on Trent. He was at Burton on Trent. Who have I missed?
DK: Wally, Bob.
JW: I came, I came from Enfield, Middlesex. That’s a touch, I’ve got a touch of Cockney in me you know [laughs] I spent most, a lot of my pre, nearly all my pre-RAF days working in London. At the headquarters there of the Co-op.
DK: Right.
JW: The London Headquarters.
DK: Yeah.
JW: In Leman Street.
DK: Yeah.
JW: East 1.
DK: Just, just looking at your operations here I notice you’ve got “Target award.” Is that because you were the most on target or — ?
JW: Recall is it?
DK: Target award.
JW: Oh target award. Oh yes. I’ll show you that.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JW: Are they in this? Are they in this book or are they in that book?
DK: So you got one of those for Milan, Nuremberg.
JW: That’s quite true. Yeah.
DK: Spezia, Italy.
JW: But not with Bob Fletcher. It was other crews.
DK: Right. Because that was, they were with 97 Squadron.
JW: Yeah. Let’s see what I’ve got here. I’ve got all rubbish here, haven’t I?
DK: Oh that’s a Nuremberg one.
JW: There’s another one.
DK: Right. So —
JW: Do you want another one?
DK: So that’s the target award for Spezia on the 13th and 14th of April 1943.
JW: Yeah. Some things are repeated, of course. I don’t know. Some —
DK: This one then. That’s Fletcher. That’s with the Fletcher crew.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So then Milan 14th to 15th of Feb 1943 — target award. And Nuremberg 25th of the 2nd 1943. So the pilot then was Lennox.
JW: Lennox, that’s it. I flew.
DK: Yeah.
JW: The three trips I did with him. His last three before he finished his thirty ops.
DK: So these target awards then were, were they they based on how close you got to the target?
JW: Photographs.
DK: Photographs.
JW: When you dropped your bombs, when they dropped the bombs though they also dropped a flare chute.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not a chute, a flare thing, you know which is due, which is timed to detonate at a certain level. And as it detonated it lit up the target and it showed where you drop the bomb.
DK: Right.
JW: But it’s a bit hard to get that really because you’d got cloud to think of and all sorts of things to think about. So, it wasn’t, it wasn’t all that easy. We weren’t, we weren’t conscious of it of course at the time.
DK: So just for the recording here the Spezia one on the 13th and 14th of April.
JW: Yeah.
DK: The pilot’s Fletcher and you get Sergeant Mason, Flight Sergeant Robertson, Flight Sergeant that would be Wally Layne. Sergeant White, yourself. Pilot officer Bale and the Sub Lieutenant Lett. Was he Royal Navy then?
JW: [pause] Yeah. [pause] Ok. Shall I put them back in the —
DK: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
JW: This you might be interested in. Look at it that way.
DK: There you go.
JW: That’s a bomb. Oh you’ve twisted it around.
DK: A bomb bay.
JW: No re-gain.
DK: That way.
JW: That way. That’s it. That’s the four thousand pound bomb.
DK: Bomb.
JW: That’s right.
JW: And those are incendiaries.
JW: That’s right. A hell of a load isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: That aircraft, the Lancaster was really, really a winner you know. It was, it was a great boost for AV Roe.
DK: That was going to be my next question actually.
JW: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of the Lancaster then?
JW: Marvellous. Yes. She was a, she was, it was quite a comfortable aircraft really. Flying this is. Mind you, where we were, the rear turret was a bugger and I steered clear of that. Some bright bloody bugger up at headquarters got the idea that if you remove the Perspex in front they can see better. He has to put goggles on to make up for it so where’s the saving? All you got was cold. As you know when you push something through the air you get a backdraft.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You get it in a car isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: Well you’ve got a gale blowing in there and it’s bitter cold. It really is bitter. Your saliva which drips down from your mask, that freezes and it can block the tube.
DK: So how many times did you fly in the rear turret then?
JW: I can have a look.
DK: Yeah. Ok. But you were mostly —
JW: As little as possible I can tell you.
DK: As little as possible. So it was mostly the mid-upper turret.
JW: Well, you see, in the early days I didn’t have much clout as the saying goes. But as I got more and more experienced in things and surviving, our crew had got a reputation on the squadron of being the lucky people. We were lucky. No doubt about that. They couldn’t understand how we escaped so much. We did. And I’ll tell you Bob, he didn’t cut corners. I’ll swear to any bible you like we went to the target and he went to the bloody target and he dropped his bombs on the target. That’s how we got the target awards. And he came back. Now, he was a good chap. Now, you want to know, what am I looking at?
DK: How many times you flew in the rear turret.
JW: Oh yeah [pause, pages turning] It’s here somewhere. Ah yes. There’s [pause] well that was a training flight. 8th of October of ’42. Now then. Mid-upper. Mid-upper. Mid-upper. Here we are. Conversion course at somewhere or other. I was rear gunner all of those. That’s right. We didn’t have a mid-upper there. That was, we were doing a conversion. The stupidity, the apparent stupidity, let’s put it that way, of what goes on in wartime among the passing things down. You know. Well, there we were at Syerston flying with a crew and suddenly we were sent to Swinderby, just up the road for a conversion course to four engine, four engine aircraft. What the hell did they think we were flying in any case? I mean it’s so ruddy stupid it’s hard to believe. There we are. I’ve got it here.
DK: So at the OTU and Heavy Conversion Unit was that all Lancasters?
JW: Yeah. Somebody had got their wires crossed I expect.
DK: Yeah. Was it? Was it Lancasters at the OTU and the Heavy Conversion Unit?
JW: Yeah. Here we are. I did some. Sergeant Goodwin, as a rear gunner and also, that’s right — one, two I did a lot of training flights. Only one operation.
DK: Oh right. So only one operation in the rear turret.
JW: There’s some more there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Another one there. Mine laying. A lot, a lot of exercises went on. Kept us busy didn’t it? Rear gunner. All these are rear gunner. Oh yes. Here we are. Gardening. They called it gardening. Sowing the mines, you know.
DK: The mines.
JW: Essen. Berlin. Dusseldorf. Two at Dusseldorf.
DK: And that was in the rear turret.
JW: Yeah. These are all rear gunner. I did more than I thought.
DK: Ah.
JW: Hamburg.
DK: For the recording that’s, you were at the Baltic mining on the 14th of December ’42 and the 9th of January ’43. And then Essen the 11th of January ’43.
JW: Yeah.
DK: Berlin 16th of January. Dusseldorf 23rd of January.
JW: The 14th of, the 14th of February.
DK: Yeah.
JW: ’43. I joined 97 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So Dusseldorf again 27th of January.
JW: Yeah.
DK: And Hamburg 30th of January.
JW: That’s right.
DK: 1943. And —
JW: They were all rear gunners they were.
DK: They were all rear gunner. Right.
JW: I didn’t know, I didn’t know I managed all that. Good gracious.
DK: So that’s at least one, two, three, four, five, six times. You were rear gunner more often than you thought.
JW: There’s still some rear gunners here. Lennox. It’s got to come to an end soon. Ah [pause] ah my first flight with Bob Fletcher. I even put his decoration in. DFM.
DK: And what date was that?
JW: That was the 30th of March ‘43
DK: Right. So that was a training flight was it?
JW: That’s my, that’s my first flight with him. That was the mid-upper gun. I exercised my seniority. I’m going in the top turret thank you. And old Harry Page was stuck with the other one. He didn’t mind. He’s a tough old bird he was old. Old Harry was. No. That’s all, that’s all it was. No more.
DK: So all your operations then up to the 30th of March were in the rear turret.
JW: I didn’t like it one little bit.
DK: And just here 24th of July 1943 was Hamburg and the first use of Window. Was that the dropping out of the, the reflective flares? The reflective paper then? Window.
[pause]
JW: Window. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JW: That’s the strips of metal.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: But that, right I’ll tell you now a little story. Not a story but the fact. There was one anti-fighter device which didn’t get its proper recognition. It was a thing called Tinsel. All this was, it was a, it was the cheapest piece of equipment you could ever bother to think and it was the most effective. And it was ignored. That’s higher up. All this was was a microphone that was attached to one of the inner engines and the wire, and the cable went through the wing into the cockpit and down to the wireless operator’s position. And it coupled to his Morse code.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Now, on briefing all the wireless operators were given a wave band to listen out on. Right. And that’s all the squadrons all doing it. And what you had to do, what they had to do was to listen out, when they weren’t doing something else, listen out. As soon as they heard a German voice — on the key.
DK: Yeah.
JW: It transmitted this awful noise from the engine. There were a few sore ears down there I wonder. But it never got recognised as an effective. It probably sounded a bit too simple probably. All it was was a microphone, a bit of adhesive tape and wire.
DK: And wire. Yeah.
JW: A shame you know because, because the wireless operators got used to it and they started using it for their own purposes and they would tap messages to each other because you can’t broadcast when you’re flying.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Because they can pick you up. But if you’re transmitting this bloody noise the people, they can’t hear you, you see.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And come in, ‘I’ve heard from Joe and,’ so and so and so. ‘Oh really.’ [laughs] [pause] We saw Nettleton go down.
DK: Really.
JW: We didn’t know at the time it was him. We were coming back from one of the Italian jobs. Milan or Turin and he came back over the Bay of Biscay. That way to avoid coming over France. Daylight by now because it’s a long trip. Broad daylight and I was flying there and occasionally, it was very interesting flying along on your own. You think, on your own. And suddenly another one there, another one there, another one there they were popping up and people in the same stream going down. You know. Very interesting. And I was looking down there and I saw this one down a bit low there and flying like that and suddenly his nose dipped down like that. He went straight in the water. I noted the time. And when I reported this back at interrogation afterwards I found out it was Nettleton. So nobody knows why he went down.
DK: Yeah. Is it, is it possible to check your logbooks? I just —
JW: Sorry?
DK: The aircraft P Peter. Does it have the serial number in your logbook by any chance?
[pause]
DK: 1943.
[pause]
JW: I’ve got a lot of rubbish in here.
DK: Did you, did you make a note of the serial numbers?
JW: Yes.
DK: I’m just. P Peter.
JW: Here we are. JA 708.
DK: Ok. And that was operation to Hanover on the —
JW: Hanover. Yeah.
DK: 22nd of September.
JW: That’s right.
DK: 1943.
JW: Yeah. My last trip that was.
DK: And then the following night. Hanover again when the aircraft was lost.
JW: The following. Ah. Now then, another little story coming up. Now here we go. They flew off without me. A bloke in my place. And the target was Mannheim.
DK: Oh Mannheim. Ok.
JW: It was. But they never found it. They never hit it. Now I had a letter many many years later from the editor of the local newspaper of a small town which lies in between Mannheim and Ludwigshafen.
DK: Right.
JW: They’re both inland ports.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: About in the middle. And I can’t remember the name of it. He wrote to me. He said he’d heard of my survival and he’d like a little more information because he said for the anniversary of that particular night they were going to put some show on or something.
DK: Ok.
JW: And he wanted to get all the information I think he could out of it. There wasn’t much I could tell him because I wasn’t there. He appreciated that. But he did send me a diagram of the town centre which was completely obliterated. They got the lot down there. It was the wrong target. Great shame wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JW: These things happen don’t they, in wartime doesn’t it?
DK: So which town was this then that —
JW: Well I don’t know. I can’t remember the name of it.
DK: Right. Ok.
JW: It begins with the letter K I remember.
DK: So the target was Mannheim but they —
JW: They should have bombed Mannheim but the Pathfinders had made a mistake. They targeted this little town instead.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And this little town got the lot. Seven hundred Lancasters dropping bombs on them.
DK: And that was the 23rd of September 1943.
JW: Completely obliterated the whole town centre he tells me.
DK: And that was, just for the recording here the 23rd of September 1943. Yeah.
JW: Is it, he had a title. He was a professor of something or other.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Editor of the local newspaper.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Ok well let’s stop the recording there. I’m sure you are.
[recording paused]
DK: So it’s recording now so —
JW: Ok.
DK: Consider what you’re saying. So 97 Squadron then. What do you —
JW: Right. Woodhall Spa.
DK: Yeah. Ok.
JW: Right. Well it so happens that our parent station was Coningsby. [But you didn’t really notice that?] And they were so close that the drem circuit, which is a ring of lights around the airfield.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And they crossed there. Think of this. They’re going that way around like that and down like that. This one’s going the same way like that. But when they get there they’re in opposite directions. We thought that’s a bit hairy. Fortunately there was no flying at Coningsby. They were busy putting a hard —
DK: Runway.
JW: Runways down. Putting hard runways down. But we were so close to Coningsby really. All our, all our admin work was done at Coningsby. Now, I went back to Coningsby twice. The first time was we’d all subscribed. In the Association not the Squadron Association, we subscribed to a stained glass window to commemorate the squadron. And that was being placed in the chapel on the station. The RAF station there. A proper do on a Sunday morning there. Even got one bloke there playing the bugle. He couldn’t play it to save his soul [laughs] but never mind. It was a gesture. We got that done. I guess, I got another, another instance where I broke my thoughts about the future. A lot of the chaps there with me were wearing the DFM. Which means they were airmen. Not officers. That’s just, just a little aside. At the general meetings each year the first time I went I shared a table with a couple there. Two couples in fact. A big table. Yeah. They were original people from the squadron in wartime days and come to think of it they weren’t particularly happy about being there. They thought, I got the impression they thought it was a waste of time but I didn’t say anything at the time naturally. But it added to my thoughts about the whole thing you know. And when I was first approached by Ann Savage who was this WAAF, ex-WAAF who was acting as secretary she, I don’t know how she found me but she got me and talked me into joining. Before joining I rang my pilot Bob Fletcher at home and I asked him for his, his opinion. He said, ‘Don’t touch them with a barge pole.’ He wouldn’t have it. No. Out. Oh dear. But pressure was put on me to join and I thought well I do owe something. I mean you must know by now how lucky I’ve been. I do know something. So I, I gave in and I went along to that. The next AGM and reunion. The other reunion there’s a misname. It wasn’t a reunion at all. It was an AGM really. There was so few people there who were actually on the squadron during the wartime days. Now, that’s what I call a reunion. Me meeting old friends there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: I knew nobody. And nobody knew me. These two couples at the table there they weren’t particularly happy about it all. The next year I went again. I didn’t see them again. They never turned up again. I noticed a few others that I remembered were there. They didn’t come again. The third time I went nobody came there who was on the squadron during the wartime days. Completely out. And going back to that business I said about, about the youngsters there this particular organisation now is devolved into just a club for the young people. And I try to influence them a bit. The chairman was a retired wing commander. Bomb aimer. Ken Cook. And he and the secretary were together like that and they had some sort of interest in the hotel. The Admiral Rodney. Admiral Rodney in the middle of Lincoln? Oh well [laughs] And Hornchurch is, it’s a sink town. It’s dreadful. They’ve got a little stream that runs through the town there. It’s only a little stream but you get all the rubbish in there. Bedsteads and trollies and all sorts of things. It’s a dreadful place. It had a Woolworth’s there.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it hadn’t been changed since the wartime days. It had ordinary floorboards. No lino or carpet. Oh God. Oh no. No. I said, I thought came into my mind this is not going to attract anybody.
DK: Yeah.
JW: You’d have one say never again and I tried to steer them away. I thought Lincoln would be the ideal place.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Lincoln was the centre of Lancaster country you know. We all know that. Everybody. It’s always written up on it and they wouldn’t listen because this hotel. They got hat and glove with the proprietor of the hotel I think. They took over the hotel and allocated the bedrooms and things like that. No. That’s not the future at all. Any rate, the wing commander, he wrote to the other members of the committee misinterpreting exactly, misinterpreting entirely what I had wrote to him. He said I was trying to tell them to buy a sack of Kevin’s books and dish them out as rewards or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
JW: Not at all. That wasn’t it at all. I was talking about the location of the place. So I bowed out. I said it’s not worth it. It’s not worth worrying about. Except for Kevin. He stayed on. He became the secretary. Acting secretary shall I say. I don’t get much from him these days. He’s very busy. Like all of us when you retire you start getting busy.
DK: Yeah.
JW: But there you are he keeps on saying I’ll come and see but it’s a long way to come from Peterborough just to take you out to lunch isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JW: And I haven’t got a house now to offer hospitality. He stayed with us before when I had a house at East [unclear] but that’s gone now.
DK: When you were based at Woodhall Spa did you use the Petwood Hotel?
JW: Yeah.
DK: At all. Was that, was that somewhere you used to go to then as the mess?
JW: Well the last time we went I took my wife with me. A bit of luck once again. Just my lucky streak. And somebody from the hotel staff, somebody in authority, they said, ‘Oh we’ll change your room for you.’ We had some sort of little room. They gave us a lovely room. Private bathroom. The lot. It was well done you know.
DK: Yeah.
JW: And it so happened that after the meeting and all the fun and games and things like that, people drifting away that more or less left Kevin and his lady and me and my wife and one or two others there drifting away. And we were taken, my wife and I were taken with Kevin up to this room and people were going back to their room, passing. Raising an eyebrow. They knew this was a good room. We got the plum. So that’s it. That’s it. Time to quit. Any rate I wished them the best but when you come to think of it though when they first asked me to join that’s over twenty years after the war. It’s a bit late to start a reunion isn’t it? Twenty years after the event isn’t it?
JW: It is. It is a little bit.
And then Bob saying don’t touch them with a bargepole. I don’t know why. I don’t know what his objection was but he wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Yeah. It was a bit downmarket I must admit.
What? The Petwood?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ernest James White
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWhiteEJ161027
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:42:38 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James White worked as a wages clerk for the Co-op before volunteering for the Air Force. He had intended to join the navy but he saw some recruits being shouted at so he turned around and crossed the corridor to join the RAF. He had always had an interesting in flying because his uncle lived near Hendon Airfield and he had enjoyed watching the aircraft as well as making models. When he had completed his final operation as a gunner with 97 Squadron his crew still had one to do and so he volunteered to join them. The gunnery leader refused his offer and he went on the operation himself. The crew failed to return from that operation and the surviving members became prisoners of war.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nuremberg
Italy--La Spezia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
44 Squadron
61 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Botha
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
Lysander
memorial
military service conditions
Oboe
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Graveley
RAF Morpeth
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
searchlight
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1197/11770/PWiddowsonFE1801.2.jpg
7aa5a49f8a57f0aa46b301fea31ba807
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1197/11770/AWiddowsonFE180731.1.mp3
2a989177d4b38c12f0c5bc2e992b9be8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Widdowson, Eileen
Frances Eileen Widdowson
F E Widdowson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Eileen Widdowson (b. 1932). She grew up in Peterborough and remembers being bombed.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Widdowson, FE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs Eileen Widdowson on the 31st of July 2018 at her home. It is 2018, isn’t it?
EW: It is 2018. Yes.
DK: I was going to stop. I was going to say nineteen. Anyway, I’ll leave that on there.
EW: On there. Ok. So I’ll just talk to you.
DK: Just talk normally.
EW: Yeah.
DK: It’s catching you there. So if I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s —
EW: It’s still going.
DK: It’s still going. Yeah. So —
EW: Well, I was born —
DK: Yeah.
EW: In 1932. In Peterborough actually. I have a sister who is two years older than me which makes her eighty eight and we’re both still going strong at the moment.
DK: Good.
EW: And so of course living at Peterborough my father was, he died when I was seventeen months old.
DK: Oh no.
EW: And so my mother came to live in Grantham because she had an older brother here who had a shop and I think she, she didn’t get on with my aunt over there so I think she escaped really more than anything. And of course my grandmother had a bungalow at Snettisham. On the beach in Norfolk. On the day that the war was declared we were there and panic set in I think. I mean I wasn’t really aware what was going on then but in hindsight it was panic because I think everyone thought it’s going to start now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know. And so everybody packed up and we all came home and I can remember walking up our road and a lot of the people were out on the outside on the front. You know, talking about what was going to happen.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And all the rest of it. And I can remember people talking about bombs and things to my mother and I thought well I don’t know what a bomb is, you know so I suppose it’s nothing really. You know. It’s just something. And I just forgot about it. I don’t remember being scared or anything because obviously I didn’t know what a bomb was going to do.
DK: Yeah.
EW: However, we soon found out because my mother lived right almost one street away from the railway station here which is of course is the main line north to south. And so, and my school was at the top of our road which was, you went down some steps to the, to the station so it was very close to, to the station. And the first thing I can remember about going to school after the war was declared was that the teachers said we had to ask our parents if they had any net curtains. Old net curtains. And I thought well I wonder what they want old net curtains for. You know. But I soon found out because we had to cut them into squares and they pasted them on the windows.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Of the school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: To stop the blast.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But of course then of course what happens to the kids when there’s a raid because there were no shelters. Nothing like that at the time. So when, the teacher said, ‘When the siren goes you will have to get under your desks.’ And we thought oh great. That’s really safe. You know. We never thought about how ridiculous it was.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know, you just didn’t.
DK: It was, did it seem looking back on it as a child a bit of an adventure then?
EW: Well, it did then.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because we hadn’t really had any sign of bombing or anything in the first year because it was just you know —
DK: The Phoney War.
EW: Phoney War. Yes. And then she said that when the siren used to go and then you had time to get, hopefully to get to a shelter but then the three pips would go and that meant that the planes were overhead.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And you just had to hope that they weren’t going to hit you.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because it was too late then to run for a shelter.
DK: Just for the recording can you remember the name of your school?
EW: Yes. It was Spitalgate School.
DK: Spitalgate School. Right.
EW: And it was up near St John’s Church, which —
DK: Ok.
EW: Is dead opposite, almost opposite the railway station.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You just went down some steps.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And the first sort of thing that I can remember about doing all this was that eventually the siren did go and unfortunately [laughs] it was a raid and so she said we all had to go into the cloakroom and put coats over our heads. And I mean it isn’t until you grow up when you realise how ridiculous these things were.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Because all that you wouldn’t see was the bullets coming through the roof.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he, so that was my first experience of what was going to happen. And fortunately they, they didn’t hit the school.
DK: Can you, do you remember seeing the aircraft themselves?
EW: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: This was the story that I told this young lady. That’s why she —
DK: Yeah.
EW: She thought you’d like to know. Because of the raids, the severity of some of the raids because as you know Grantham was surrounded by airfields.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And also we had a big munition factory at Marcos. British Marcos. And they were making ammunition and guns and all sorts of things.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And it, obviously it was a good place to get rid of, if you like.
DK: Yeah.
EW: As far as the Germans were concerned. But having said that we, the teachers had said to the parents if there is a raid and it’s a real, real one, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Not just a make believe one. They said, ‘Would you come to the school and fetch your children if you live near enough to get there.’ Kind of before the three pips went, you know. Well, of course we lived, we had to come up my street here and go through another street called Fletcher Street and then turn and go up Norton Street to the school. But what had happened was that in the old days they used to deliver beer at the pubs on a horse and dray. Well, the horses were big shire horses and so what they used to do they used to tether the Shire horse at the back of the cart so it couldn’t bolt. But the horse was dancing around with the noise and pulled the cart across the street. So my mother in the meantime had come to fetch me and we were running down and that’s what scared me really. My mother never ran anywhere —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because she was forty four before she had me so she was quite an elderly mother and I thought I wonder why she’s running. And of course then I turned around and I looked at this plane and it was dive bombing down Norton Street. And I could see him. I looked into his eyes. He’d got goggles and a leather helmet and it was one of the black planes with the white, you know.
DK: Swastikas.
EW: Thing on. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. The iron cross.
EW: Well. The iron cross. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. The black cross.
EW: And I sort of looked up at him and I don’t, I can’t remember being terrified but I thought, I wonder why he’s coming down here you know. It was a child’s perception.
DK: Yes.
EW: Of not knowing what could happen to you. But in, after this.
DK: I don’t suppose you —
EW: I realised.
DK: I don’t suppose you realised at the time as a child the real danger you were in.
EW: No. No. Because afterwards, you know many years afterwards I heard that some of the more Nazi orientated pilots would shoot people running in —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Especially in London, to the, to the shelters. And so I suppose basically my mum and I were very lucky but it was, so he came dive bombing down and of course we couldn’t get through the small street that we had to go through to get home because this horse had pulled the cart across.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And so my mother pulled me up and she pushed me into a, as we, ginnels or what passageways to somebody’s house and she went and knocked on the door and this lady let us in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But after that I’m not sure quite where he went but I think he had, he had machine gunned the school roof.
DK: Right.
EW: And why I don’t know because he could have seen there were playgrounds laid out. So why he didn’t shoot me and my mum I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But he could have done if he’d wanted to. And it was, it was all sort of over in a flash, you know and he went up to bomb Marcos I think as well because he did drop a bomb in the station goods yard. The Germans never actually hit the target here.
DK: Right.
EW: They always missed. Fortunately for some people but unfortunate for others. And once he’d gone my mum waited until they’d untethered this horse because I think I’d rather face a German plane than a horse’s hoof like that size.
DK: No.
EW: Because they’re very, very big.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Those horses. And anyhow, we managed to get home and afterwards you know I’ve thought about it so many times and I’ve thought well at least I was lucky that I’m still here.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I said to all my children if it hadn’t have been that that pilot had probably got a conscience I wouldn’t have been here and neither would any of my children.
DK: Could you hear his guns firing at all? Or —
EW: We heard them in the school when we were in school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But you see my mother came to fetch me.
DK: Yeah. But not during this incident then.
EW: Not. No.
DK: No.
EW: Because he was dive bombing down the street. It all happened in a moment really.
DK: In a flash. Yeah.
EW: And I just turned. I don’t know whether it’s because I looked at him I don’t know.
DK: He just didn’t. Didn’t fire.
EW: He just didn’t and so he went up to Marcos. Now, I can’t —
DK: So Marcos is the armaments —
EW: Marcos is the armaments factory.
DK: Do you know whereabouts that was?
EW: Yes. It’s on Springfield Road.
Dk: Springfield Road, right.
EW: But it’s all be knocked down now.
DK: Ok.
EW: It’s a housing estate.
DK: Right. Ok.
EW: As all. But it was strange because you always knew when they were testing the guns they’d made.
DK: Right.
EW: Because they had gun tunnels.
DK: Oh right.
EW: Underneath the ground. And every day you could hear this rat a tat, rat a tat and they were testing the guns under there.
DK: Right.
EW: Now, whether the underground things are still there I don’t know but it’s definitely all gone.
DK: Yeah. A housing estate now.
EW: Yes. It’s all gone. Well, the reason it’s gone is because Steel World took it, which was a Swedish firm.
DK: Right.
EW: And unfortunately when we had the Argentinian War for the Falklands.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They found out that that firm had been selling arms to Argentina.
DK: Argentina. Right.
EW: So it was our guns made in Grantham that was killing our soldiers. Our people. Yes.
DK: The Argentines were using — yes.
EW: So that was closed down and you know finished. So that was the end of that sort of thing.
DK: So the housing estate then is, is fairly recent. Since the eighties.
EW: Yes. Yes. Oh absolutely.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yes. Very. I should think the houses there are about eight or nine years old.
DK: Oh right. Right. So, fairly recent.
EW: Yeah. They’re not. Yes, fairly recent.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And, because Marcos was a place where all the women met their husbands.
DK: Right.
EW: Because there was a huge dance hall there and everybody, all the kids went from here. The youngsters you know they met their husbands and a lot of the girls married in to the American side of things.
DK: Yeah.
EW: When they came over.
DK: So Marcos then was a big employer here.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. And Dennis Kendall who was a member of parliament he owned it but as I say he sold it. Well, he left and of course after the war it was sold but it was just sad that these guns were killing our RAF lads.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But as I say that was one incident and —
DK: Just going back to that incident then with this plane flying down the street.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember anything that your mother said when you got home? Was it, was there anything?
EW: Well —
DK: Was she a bit shaken?
EW: Very shaken. But my mother was a Victorian lady. She was born in 1888 believe it or not.
DK: Right.
EW: And she was always I didn’t realise she was an old lady until I grew a bit older and I realised that you know my mother wasn’t the same age as the mum’s meeting the children from the school at the same time.
EW: Right.
DK: But having said that you know she, but she did have a really bad nervous breakdown after the war ended.
DK: Really.
EW: Because, partly because you if you had a spare bedroom or you could all bunk in to one bed you had to let the room go because they were bringing people in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: To the munition factory from all over the country. To work in the munition factory at Marcos. And of course auxiliary firemen. They were brought in as well to, you know. And so because my mother had to, we all had to sleep three of us to a bed because she had to give up her front bedroom.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For, and we had two or three girls came from up north. Newcastle way. They were working at British Marcos. And then after they left we had a gentleman from Nottingham. He was in the Auxiliary Fire Service.
DK: Right.
EW: And then he got posted somewhere else. And then we had two soldiers billeted for a short time. One was a Scottish lad and the other one was for Newcastle. And I don’t know what health and safety would have felt about all this because as children they had to muster at St Johns Church Hall which was at the top of the steps down to the railway station just where our school was. And that’s where they had to muster. And of course they all had guns and things. They were going off to France or somewhere.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they used to let us carry their guns for them [laughs] I can, I can always remember trudging up the road with this gun on my shoulder, you know. And I think, you know health and safety would have a fit now wouldn’t they?
DK: They probably would.
EW: And they gave us sixpence each you see.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For carrying the guns.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But sadly, after the war ended Mac, who was the chappie from Newcastle he became a long distance lorry driver and he called in on us one day to tell us that Mac, not Mac the other lad. I can’t remember his name.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But he didn’t make it.
DK: Oh.
EW: He never came back so —
DK: He was killed in Europe then.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. And so that was one thing. But another point was that we used to go out collecting ‘hips. Rosehips. Picking rosehips because you could take them to a central point and they’d give you so much a pint for these. And they used to make rosehip syrup for the babies.
DK: Right.
EW: Because orange juice was unobtainable and of course they needed vitamin C.
DK: Right.
EW: So that was the only way they could do it. So we used to collect those and we also, my sister and I it’s hard to believe now because I don’t think there are any streams around here that are healthy.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But there was one that was kind of. It was up Harlaxton Road which is on the road to Melton Mowbray. And they, there was a stream there and there was watercress growing in it. And my sister and I used to go and pick it and bunch it and sell it for the Red Cross.
DK: Right.
EW: And of course we were all saving for aeroplanes and all sorts. You know. There were big target things on the Guildhall with the picture of a Spitfire. You know, you were making money to buy them.
DK: This was the Spitfire Fund.
EW: Yeah.
DK: The Spitfire Fund. Yeah.
EW: And so those sort of things we did. And collect newspapers. And another thing I remember, I think the worst thing I remember about saving stuff was that we had pigswill bins at the top of the street.
DK: Right.
EW: Well, the stench sometimes was disgusting and they used to come and collect it about every other day you know. And all this waste food went off. I felt sorry for the pigs actually. But I suppose they boiled it down.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But that, that and when the pig swill lorry had been oh God it’s, the smell lingered forever you know in the street. And they did, when the war first started they came around collecting any old aluminium saucepans you’d got or —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And they, I mean St Wulfram’s Church, the big church you know that was all railings all around it and of course they cut all those down. Everybody’s metal gates went.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: All the fences. Everything was melted down, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because really —
DK: Allegedly.
EW: We were totally, yes. Supposedly.
DK: Because they said it was the wrong type of metal apparently. So —
EW: Oh. Did they?
DK: Allegedly, it’s gone, it’s down a mine in Wales.
EW: Oh, is it. Oh, my God.
DK: All the saucepans and things.
EW: What a shame.
DK: Tell the story again.
EW: Yeah. Well, I don’t know about that, I suppose that’s —
DK: I don’t know if it’s true or not.
EW: Well, lots don’t know a lot of things happen like that because they didn’t really know.
DK: Yeah. It was a propaganda thing, wasn’t it?
EW: Yes.
DK: To make you feel involved.
EW: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I can remember the man coming around and teaching you how to work at a stirrup pump.
DK: Right.
EW: You know they used to put one end in the bucket of water.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And you sort of pump this thing up and down and it was supposed to, I don’t think it would have put anything out but —
DK: No. Can you remember much of the damage around Grantham?
EW: Oh, I can, I’ve got a book actually.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Which you can see.
DK: Oh right. That’s Grantham’s war years.
EW: It’s very difficult to get it now. It’s out of print.
DK: So, just for the recording it’s, “Grantham. The War Years. 1939 -45.”
EW: That’s right.
DK: “A pictorial insight.” by Malcolm G Knapp.
EW: Yes.
DK: Right.
EW: If I see another one I’ll buy one and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Donate it to them. Yeah.
DK: I’d like a copy of that. I’ll look out for it myself.
EW: Yes.
DK: See if I can get a hold, get a hold of a copy.
EW: You mostly find them in charity shops.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because when people die, people take all their belongings in.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And that’s [pause] but as I say oh and I can, another thing I remember is Gracie Fields came —
DK: Oh yeah.
EW: To Grantham. And she was, there was on the High Street we had a huge water tank which was a reserve water tank in case they hit the water mains and that was on one side of the town green and we, I used to have to go that way to go to school.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, my friend and I we knew that she was coming and she, she put her head out of a hairdresser’s window across the road from the Guildhall and she was singing out of the window. And of course my friend and I, we were enthralled you know because Gracie Field was famous then you know. And we stopped and listened and of course when we got to school we were very late so we got detention. But it was worth it. And also —
DK: So there’s a Wings for Victory.
EW: That’s the one. Yes. Yes. That’s —
DK: Yeah [a picture there] Yes.
EW: Yes. That’s and that’s the Guildhall there. Yeah.
DK: So there’s quite, quite a few pictures of the damage here, isn’t there?
EW: Oh yes.
DK: The railway line in particular.
EW: Yes. Now that was another thing. The railway line. When this bomb, this plane dropped a bomb he was trying to hit the railway lines but he missed and hit the station goods yard. The bomb didn’t go off. Which is probably as well for our school otherwise —
DK: Yeah.
EW: I think it would have been very badly damaged. And needless to say they moved the school out later on. Somewhere a bit more safe.
DK: Yeah. Horses there.
EW: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yes. They used to deliver everything with horse and dray.
DK: Yeah. Sorry. You were saying.
EW: Yes. When he dropped the bomb in this good yard as I say it didn’t go off and the next day at school, oh the chappie went in. That’s right. The chappie went in to, bomb disposal chappie went in to detonate, you know to take the —
DK: To defuse it.
EW: Defuse it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And sadly it did go off and killed him. And so of course the next time around at school in the playground the boys had all got, you know the little match boxes you used to get? The Bryant and May match boxes. They cut a hole through the bottom and the tray and they put a piece of cotton wool inside it and they pricked their finger to get some blood. And then they would put their finger, their thumb through this hole in to this cotton wool.
DK: Right.
EW: And then they were going around the playground saying, ‘Do you want to have a look what we found?’ You know. And it was pretty grim but I mean that’s what we did.
DK: A thumb.
EW: And I said, you know, ‘Where did you find that?’ ‘Oh, in the station goods yard.’ You know. And I mean it was a bit macabre but that’s how you lived. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
EW: As you got older, as I got older I got I was more scared because I knew what was happening. And sadly they tried to bomb St Vincent’s. I expect you’ve heard of St Vincent’s.
DK: Yes. The 5 Group Headquarters.
EW: Yes. That’s right. Well, they, they missed. Which is perhaps a good thing for for that but they hit Stuart Street and they brought most of Stuart Street down.
DK: Right.
EW: And also they hit a shelter dead on and all of the people in the shelter were killed.
DK: Oh dear.
EW: That was awful.
DK: Can you remember, you mentioned that Grantham was a centre of the RAF bases. Can you remember much about that RAF activity over and around Grantham?
EW: Yes. The RAF have always sort of been a bit more special I always think because people respect the RAF.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Quite a lot. Because it’s difficult even now to get into the Royal Air Force. You’ve got to be a bit more intelligent than most.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But having said that it was basically more the Americans that caused the bother.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: Than, than the RAF. I mean we used to see a lot of the RAF but they were never around for that long because they were on airfields outside of Grantham.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But having said that I think the Americans did cause a lot of trouble, because they came over here and they still had this apartheid attitude.
DK: Yes.
EW: To the black Americans.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I’m afraid a lot of the pubs in Grantham had masses of fights and things going on between the black and the white Americans.
DK: Really?
EW: Yeah. And the white Americans were horrible to them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Even in a war they were horrible to them. And I mean if a girl in Grantham went out with a black American well it was terrible you know. These, the white Americans called them sluts and all sorts.
DK: Oh dear.
EW: But quite a lot of, of Grantham girls married American.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Airmen and soldiers.
DK: Did you personally know any that married Americans?
EW: I didn’t know them. No.
DK: No.
EW: Because I was too, really too young —
DK: Too young. Yeah.
EW: To fraternise with them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know.
DK: You didn’t have any neighbours that that were —
EW: Oh yeah. There was a lady. A girl, a girl called, I think her name was Eileen Dawson. She married a GI.
DK: Right.
EW: And went to America.
DK: And went to America. As a GI bride.
EW: Yes, and another, well another friend of mine, her, she was, she was, she was slightly older than me and what used to happen with some of the young girls in Grantham the young eighteen, nineteen, twenty, they had, laid buses on to take them on a Saturday night to Alconbury which was an American air base.
DK: Yes.
EW: And so this friend of mine, Jean she married a GI chappie. Well, I didn’t know at the time that he was a native Indian.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she had a daughter with him and afterwards when the war was over she went over there to live. Presumably to live with him and when she got over to America he lived on a Reservation.
DK: Oh.
EW: And of course you can imagine that life on a Reservation was not very good.
DK: Yes. That must have been a bit of a cultural shock.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So of course she came back again and they were divorced. And her daughter was born stone deaf.
DK: Right.
EW: And, but she looks exactly like an Indian squaw. She does honestly. She’s a lovely girl but she does look exactly like an Indian squaw. But having said that —
DK: And is she still alive?
EW: Yes.
DK: Still here?
EW: Yes. She’s still alive. Yeah. They’re both still alive. Yes.
DK: And still living in Grantham, are they?
EW: Yes.
DK: Oh right.
EW: Well, they live, I think they lived in Gonerby which is just a little village at the top of the hill.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: It’s not far away and, but do you remember when Cilla Black used to do that, “Surprise. Surprise” show.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Well, this girl this daughter was on it.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And they arranged for her because she’d never met her father, you see. She arranged, they arranged for her to go to America to meet her father.
DK: Right.
EW: However, she only stayed about a week instead of a fortnight because she didn’t like him.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And she didn’t like the, she didn’t like where he lived.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So she came back again to Grantham but that was a shame really because you know they thought they were doing a really good thing sending her there.
DK: It’s often the way though isn’t it?
EW: It is. Very often. Yes.
DK: No doubt she had a picture of her father and it just wasn’t the same.
EW: Absolutely. And it wasn’t the same.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, of course it was a few years afterwards because she was, she must have been in her twenties when she went over.
DK: Right.
EW: But I don’t think she’s ever married. The girl. The daughter. But yes, I mean, and a lot and another girl who lived up near to my school she married a GI. But not all of them found it what it, what they, I mean because the lads used to embroider stories about they came from this, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they had that, and their parents were rich. And when they got their it was a different story. So a lot of them did come back but I mean some of them couldn’t afford to come back.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because obviously they went very cheaply over there and, you know once they were married they used to get married here but a lot of the American lads used to spend time with Sheardowns, the farmers. They are sort of, well Peter Sheardown, they had a big farm sort of around the Bottesford area and they used to have, entertain these Americans and give them Sunday lunches and things you know. And even when, sometimes even now some of the American soldiers, oh they’re getting scarce now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because they’re all dying off but the ones that can come over and they visit them. Because I work for Cancer Research, I have done for thirty years and Mrs Sheardown works with me. So you know she was telling me all about the, her mother in law used to have all these Americans there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And feed them up because a lot of them were lonely obviously and they sort of came to England. It must have been a culture shock for some of them.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because England didn’t have what they’d got. And we were short of food.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
EW: But I know sort of talking about food I, before the war I used to love pineapples. Pineapple chunks. And of course you couldn’t get them because they were bombing the, or submarining you know torpedoing the ships. And I went to this birthday party and I saw on the table this bowl which I thought was pineapple chunks. And so I took a really big bowl full because I thought oh I haven’t seen any pineapple chunks for years. And I took this big lot. Well, it was disgusting. She’d cut a marrow into cubes and put yellow colouring and pineapple flavouring in it.
DK: Oh dear. Oh dear.
EW: And it was absolutely ghastly. And that taught me a lesson I’ll tell you. Not to, not to be deceived about what you were eating in the war. It was very difficult because things weren’t quite what they seemed.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And it I had to eat it because I daren’t leave it because I’d been so greedy. Served me right. Taught me a lesson. Just check what you’re eating. But —
DK: Can you remember, going back to the Air Force again about the bombing raids of our planes going out on —
EW: Oh yes. I, I because we used to go to bed obviously and in the middle of the night mostly the siren would go and my mum used get us to go in the shelter because they built all the brick shelters down the side of, one side of the road.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they went because our street was a hill.
DK: Right.
EW: And so they went down in you know rotation. One a bit higher than the other. And they all smelled of wet concrete and whatever else.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Somebody had been in there. And they weren’t, and they weren’t very pleasant. But I don’t know why looking back now and knowing what happened to that other shelter with all the people in it I think you were safer staying in your own house really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. And can you remember our planes at all when they were flying out to Germany?
EW: Oh yes. Oh definitely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And we always recognised the German planes.
DK: Right.
EW: Because I, they used to, they didn’t sound like our planes.
DK: Right.
EW: They used to chug chug chug.
DK: Yeah.
EW: That was the sort of noise they made. And you always knew when it was a German plane and when they were our planes, and I, we used to watch them sometimes going over and you’d sort of, ‘Please go over. Please don’t turn around and come back,’ you know, because you knew they were one a, they had a specific target.
DK: Target. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: You know. To hit.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But there was another story that I was told. My cousin lived in London and next door to her was a Jewish couple. And when my two oldest girl were little I used to go and stay with my cousin and the children used to go around and see who they used to call Auntie Ackerman. And her name, her husband’s name was Ackerman.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he was obviously a Jewish man. But he was with I don’t know whether it was MI6 or MI5. Something.
DK: Oh right.
EW: The ones that used to do the spy catching.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he said that he caught loads of spies in Grantham.
DK: Really?
EW: Because there was so much going on here with all the airfields and they knew that that raid was being planned at St Vincent’s.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So that’s how they tried. You know, they tried but unfortunately they missed. Well, fortunately for the pilots.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They missed St Vincent’s and hit Stuart Street and brought it down. It was dreadful. And killed all the people in the shelter.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And as I say they never managed to hit the railway lines.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Although they tried. But of course after this particular incident in the school, the school was moved to I think they went to a sort of an old house that was a big house.
DK: Right.
EW: That was —
DK: Requisitioned.
EW: Yes. Requisitioned for them in Grantham. But when, after we had, one night we had a terrible raid and we didn’t have time to get into the shelter because the three pips had gone. And my mother lived in a terraced house on Grantley Street which is as I say was near the station. And we used to, it was before the days when, ordinary people didn’t have refrigerators.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And she used to have a cellar and on the, as you walked down the steps of the cellar there was a long slab. A cold slab.
DK: Yes.
EW: As they used to call it. But it was solid brick until you got to the bottom and then there was a kind of alcove like that taken out of the wall and my mum used to keep the saucepans in there originally. And so she put some blankets in there and some pillows and she shoved us in there. And when I think about it now I think we could have been a sandwich of bricks.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But you don’t think about that until afterwards, you know.
DK: So just moving on then can you remember the war coming to an end and —
EW: Yes.
DK: And the big changes around that.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. I was hoping that the war was going to end on the 4th of May because that was my birthday.
DK: Right.
EW: But it didn’t. It didn’t end until the 8th I think it was, wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
EW: When it had finished.
DK: VE Day.
EW: And I can remember sort of being out in the street with friends and we were all excited but we didn’t really know what was going to happen next because obviously they were still fighting in Japan.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: And it was [pause] I was of course thirteen. Well, with my mum being quite a Victorian lady I wasn’t allowed to go with all the girls.
DK: No.
EW: To have a knees up in town, you know. But that’s what happened. Everybody went barmy because all the lights came on and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: People hadn’t, I mean children who were born before, when the war started had never seen lights in the street.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And, and what have you but it was I think everybody went barmy really.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I think it was such a relief but thinking back I think I must have been a bit of a child who was, who looked at what was happening to other people.
DK: Yes.
EW: Not the people that were enjoying themselves but those people that had lost sons and husbands that were never going to come back.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I can remember feeling sadness because they weren’t. They wouldn’t be able to go out and celebrate.
DK: They couldn’t join. Join the celebrations. No. No.
EW: Join. No. And as I say it was, it was a time when everybody stuck together. Everybody helped everybody else.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And its, it doesn’t happen anymore. Not, not most of the time. I mean, no, no way in that period of the war time would anybody be lying dead in a house and nobody notice.
DK: No. No.
EW: Which is what happens today.
DK: It does unfortunately, doesn’t it?
EW: So I think, but living through a war like that taught you to appreciate everything you had after that because it was a deprived time. And I mean the dentist is quite happy because I’ve still got my own teeth. And I said, ‘Well, that was because we didn’t have any sweets,’ because —
DK: Right.
EW: You know, sweets were on ration.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And when I went to school we used to go to the little shop next to the school and buy penny carrots and the lady used to peel them for us and we used to eat those instead of sweets. Yeah. And we did have another visitor, quite an important visitor to Grantham and we all had to go out in the street with flags and things and it was General Montgomery.
DK: Oh right.
EW: He came here.
DK: Do you remember seeing him?
EW: Yes. Oh yes. He came up the street in his, you know he had sort of like a vehicle that was specific to him.
DK: Right.
EW: I’ve see that vehicle. It was in a caravan show in the NEC once.
DK: Yeah. it’s a big green thing.
EW: A green van.
DK: Yes. I think —
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yes. I think I know what you mean.
EW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I can remember we were all waving like mad because Monty was really a hero in a way.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because he was a very, he didn’t please everybody.
DK: No.
EW: Especially the old generals that were making a mess of everything. He was, he was a man who knew what he wanted to do. And I think him and Rommel respected each other.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: In a way.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So, but Grantham really was in the midst of it because of all the airfields.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Do you, do you remember, did you visit any of the airfields at all or do you remember going past them?
EW: Well, we’d go past them.
DK: Going past them.
EW: Yeah. Because you weren’t allowed on.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Civilians weren’t allowed to go on but Spitalgate was, we used to, it sounds daft really because Spitalgate Aerodrome is on Somerby Hill.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And Spitalgate Hill is the other one next door.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: So we, my mum used to take us because we did go for walks in those days, and we went up there and we used to pass the aerodrome and we used to see all the planes and everything but it was just —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Normal for us to see all this stuff, you know.
DK: It’s just an army barracks now, isn’t it?
EW: Yes. But it’s closing down.
DK: Closing down. And going to be another housing estate.
EW: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely disgusting, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I mean that place was, it was for the RAF to start with.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Then it was, went to the WAAFs. The WAAFs were there because that’s where I went as a Guider.
DK: Right.
EW: To see Lady Baden Powell.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: On that airfield. And then of course it turned into [pause] I can’t remember what the people are that’s there now? It’s the —
DK: It’s the Duke of Gloucester barracks now isn’t it? I think.
EW: Yes. It is. Yeah. Prince William of Gloucester.
DK: Oh, Prince William of Gloucester, is it? Yeah.
EW: Yes. Yeah.
DK: But not for much longer. As you say there’s a —
EW: No. It’s going.
DK: Going to be a housing estate.
EW: Yeah. So that’s sad.
DK: More houses.
EW: Its, oh I can’t remember what they call it. It’, it’s s got a name now.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It’s for a specific kind of soldier. I don’t know quite —
DK: It’s not the Engineers is it?
EW: No. No. My husband was in the Royal Engineers.
DK: Right.
EW: And he, he was, he went in for his National Service just after the war finished. But of course then he had to stay much longer because as an engineer, a Royal Engineer, he was on the Berlin Airlift.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EW: Because the Russians had blockaded.
DK: Yeah. Berlin. Yeah.
EW: Berlin. And they wanted the lot and everybody said you’re not having it, you know. And so of course he was, as an engineer he was helping with the airlift but he was also digging up the airfields in Berlin to stop the Russian planes landing.
DK: Right.
EW: You see, that’s what they had to do. They decimated a lot of —
DK: Yeah.
EW: The runways.
DK: Make it, make it difficult.
EW: To make it difficult for them to come. Yes.
DK: If the Russians had invaded.
EW: Yes. Absolutely and —
DK: So was he out there for the whole of the Berlin Airlift then?
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yes. So he had to stay in longer because they used to do two years or something like that.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And he got, had to stay longer until it was all finished.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because the people were starving. I mean, they had nothing. Nothing could get in so we were dropping it from here which we —
DK: Yeah.
EW: We hadn’t got that much.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But we were giving what we could and other countries the same. And they were bringing them in by plane and dropping them in to Berlin because I know that the Germans started the war but they were like the civilians were like us. They just had to put up with what was happening.
DK: The enemy now was the Soviet Union, wasn’t it?
EW: Absolutely.
DK: That was the point. Yeah.
EW: That’s when all this Cold War started.
DK: The Cold War started.
EW: And strangely enough when my husband and I went over to East Germany —
DK: Right.
EW: After they’d just, they brought, I think they started taking the Wall down in November and we went in April. And I bought a piece of the Berlin Wall.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And I had the last one of the last leaflet stamp for Checkpoint Charlie.
DK: Right. So that was ‘89 1990 was it?
EW: ’90. Yes.
DK: ’89. ’90.
EW: Yeah 1990.
DK: 1990.
EW: My husband was stationed in Germany. He was stationed in Hamelin because that’s where the Royal Engineers base was.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: And when we went over in 1990 it was still there. The Royal Engineers were still there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Because of course there was such a lot of work to do. I mean, you saw when I was in East Germany it was horrible. It was. Especially I went to a place called, I think it was called Erfurt. Erfurt or something like that.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: And that’s where all of these horrible prisons were where they tortured people. And they still had the Kaiser’s train.
DK: Right.
EW: With his initials on it and everything.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And Hitler had made people plant fruit trees all along the grass verges so that when his troops marched through they could have something to eat. And, and they were still there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But it was a terribly black. Everything was black and polluted.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It was awful.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And those silly little cars they used to have.
DK: Oh, the Trabants.
EW: That’s it. They used to have them on poles with advertisements on.
DK: Yeah. Yes. I’ve seen them in Berlin. Yes.
EW: Yeah. And of course you see in the Potsdamer Platz which is the centre of Berlin where all the big embassies used to be that was flat. Absolutely flat.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But I think they have rebuilt since.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Berlin is a lovely city now.
EW: It is. Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: I’m sure. I’ve not been back since. And my husband had never seen the other side of the Brandenburg Gate.
DK: Right.
EW: And so —
DK: You can just walk straight through now.
EW: Absolutely.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And but it was very, very badly polluted. Everything had been neglected and they had no paint. They couldn’t paint their windows or anything so they had to keep, as they rotted they had to take them out and make a new window frame. But they could never buy any paint.
DK: Paint. Yeah.
EW: To paint it with. And we stayed at a hotel which was where the Eastern Bloc leader used to stay.
DK: Yes.
EW: And it was supposed to be a five star.
DK: Eric. Eric Honecker.
EW: That’s it. Honecker. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But no way was it. No way was it a five star. But you had to accept the fact that it was only just, the Wall had only just come down and in fact all of it wasn’t down.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And we walked along it on the eastern side and some of the slogans and the paintings were very provocative. It’s a wonder they didn’t all get shot. You know. But you know that’s how it was.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But it was sad because you’d walk up a street and there would have been a bridge. A railway bridge across the street.
DK: Yes.
EW: And they just chopped them off.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And no man’s land, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And people’s houses that happened to be on the borderline. They had to have all their windows blocked up.
DK: Yeah. Because you could get through to the other side.
EW: Yeah. Yeah. It was awful.
DK: I’ve seen film. There’s film. People escaping, isn’t it? They’re climbing out the window.
EW: That’s right.
DK: Because they’re pointing to the west.
EW: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And of course as soon as they found out what people were doing.
DK: They bricked the windows up.
EW: They put the windows up. Yeah. But it must have been a horrible place to live because we did a little tour of, of Germany and they said. ‘Oh, this is the place where a little, a boy a young boy was trying to escape and he got tangled in the barbed wire.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they killed him.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And then they showed us the place where the officers who tried to shoot Hitler or blow him up.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: They were executed.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they showed us the place where that was done. You know.
DK: It’s an interesting city. Berlin.
EW: It is.
DK: It’s got so much history.
EW: And of course while, when we were there in that Potsdamer Platz we said, the man said to us, ‘Oh, that is the bunker over there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Where Hitler was. So I said, ‘What, what will you to do with it? I said, ‘I hope you don’t leave it there.’ He said, ‘No. We won’t.’ He said, ‘It’s going to be destroyed.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: ‘Because,’ he said, ‘We still got a lot of neo-Nazis in Germany.’
DK: There’s the Jewish Memorial on top of it now.
EW: Is there?
DK: On the site. Yes. Yeah.
EW: Oh, well that’s wonderful.
DK: Yes.
EW: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah. We had a chappie came to talk us at Chapel Guild not long ago and he was, he was a Polish man and he was a Polish Jew. And him and his mother and his brother and sisters all got dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night and put on a train. A cattle wagon.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And his father he never saw again ever. And his mother survived and he survived but the rest of his family were —
DK: All killed.
EW: Yeah. And they just walked out of their house. They had to leave everything.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They were allowed to pack one small suitcase about like that.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I mean he’s, he wrote a book about it.
DK: Right.
EW: And he, a wonderful man you know. Doesn’t, he doesn’t look for sympathy.
DK: No. No. No.
EW: At all.
DK: It’s just but it’s important he’s, he’s telling this story isn’t it?
EW: Absolutely. That’s why, yeah. That’s why we had him.
DK: Some people don’t believe it, do they?
EW: No. Well, they don’t choose to believe it.
DK: Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yes.
EW: Yeah. But as I say, I mean I can remember. I can always remember saying to my mother when the siren went in the middle of the night, ‘I hate that Hitler.’ You know.
DK: Yes.
EW: Because I hated getting out of bed because it was —
DK: Yeah. It becomes quite personal then, doesn’t it?
EW: Oh absolutely.
DK: You’ve got a figure of hatred then. Yes.
EW: That’s right. Yeah. Well we used to, we used to draw derogatory pictures of him and all sorts you know. I mean if ever they we would have to have got rid of them otherwise we would all be shot. You know. And the sad thing was that one of my aunties had the name of Cohen and of course that is a Jewish name.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: Now why she had that name I don’t know because we’ve never gone back into her history. But I think we’d all have got the chop straightaway because we were related to her.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And —
DK: Just going on to your daughters. You said both of your daughters joined the Air Force then.
EW: Yes. Yes. They did.
DK: Was that anything to do, do you think with the stories you told them when they were younger or is it a choice they made?
EW: It’s the choice they made. I think basically they’ve always, the girls have always been, they’ve always known what they wanted to do. My eldest daughter she was, went to college and did business studies.
DK: Right.
EW: And things like that and she’s been working for Grantham Council for years and years because she’s sixty two now. My eldest daughter. And my second daughter, Karen she’s a state registered nurse and she wanted to go in the RAF.
DK: Right.
EW: But if she’d have gone in the RAF she would have gone in as an officer because she was state registered.
DK: Right. Yes.
EW: And David her husband he was in the RAF but at that time he was only a corporal.
DK: Oh, right. Yeah.
EW: And you couldn’t marry.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Beneath your rank. I think it’s changed now.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
EW: Yeah. But at that time. So she didn’t go in because obviously she wanted to marry David so he went in the RAF and he’s, he’s been all over the place and he was with Number 1 Fighter Squadron to start with.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: But as I say he, he’s out now but he’s working for this firm of surveillance.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And he’s got people going all over the world you know and sometimes they have a bit of a rough ride, you know. If somebody doesn’t like the look of them they take their passport and say there’s something not right in it and —
DK: Yeah.
EW: They have to sort it out otherwise those folks would be incarcerated forever, you know.
DK: So your two daughters that did join the RAF.
EW: Yes.
DK: What did they, what were they doing?
EW: Well, my that daughter there. That’s Louise. She’s number three daughter I call her.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: She went into the dental trade.
DK: Oh ok.
EW: And she ran dental units in the places that she —
DK: Right.
EW: Was posted to.
DK: And the picture there is her in the Falklands then.
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Yeah. That’s she getting an award. And so, but she loved it. I mean I thought they’d chuck her out after the first week because she’s terribly untidy. And when I spoke to one of the officers in, she was, she was based in Cyprus for three years.
DK: Right. Right.
EW: At Akrotiri. And I said to this officer, I said, ‘I thought you might have thrown her out by now.’ She said, ‘No way,’ she said, ‘She’s brilliant at her job.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I thought they were talking about somebody else. And of course —
DK: How many years was she in for then?
EW: Twenty two.
DK: Right.
EW: Yeah. And she’s out now but she’s running a big dental unit in Nottingham which is a seven dentist practice. I think there’s going to be more now because they’ve just built a big extension. And it deals with the students at the university.
DK: Oh ok.
EW: So she’s, she runs that. She’s the dental manager there.
DK: So daughter four. She was also in the air force as well then was she?
EW: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And what —
EW: She was my youngest one.
DK: Right. And her name was?
EW: Helena.
DK: Helen. Right.
EW: Helena.
DK: Helena.
EW: And that was Louise.
DK: Right. And what was she doing then?
EW: Well, she went down. Now, where did she go first? I can remember where Louise went first. She went to RAF Valley.
DK: Right.
EW: Because the girls in her flight gave her some cardboard sheet with cotton wool because they said all you’ve got down in Anglesey is sheep.
DK: Yes.
EW: But we did go down quite a lot to see her.
DK: Yeah.
EW: They had a big air show down there.
DK: Right.
EW: And then she, where did Helen, Louise go next? I think they wanted somebody to go to the, to the Shetland islands.
DK: Oh.
EW: And so she offered to go because nobody wanted to go there.
DK: No.
EW: Because it’s a bit sort of bleak and however it was all changed and she ended up in Cyprus for three years.
DK: Right. Very nice.
EW: Yes. And then her husband came back and said that, ‘We haven’t had a holiday for ages.’ I said, ‘You’ve just had a three year holiday on the government,’ you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But they don’t look at it like that.
DK: No. So daughter number four then. What did she, she wasn’t a dentist?
EW: No. She went in as, she was going to go in, they wanted her to go in as air traffic control.
DK: Right. Ok.
EW: And when she was at the Grantham and Kesteven Girl’s High School they used to send the girls in sixth year down to do you know whatever they wanted to do they could go and see what was involved.
DK: Yeah.
EW: Well, they sent Helena down to Chivenor.
DK: Right.
EW: I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Chivenor but it was a —
DK: It’s Devon isn’t it?
EW: It’s a training area.
DK: Yeah.
EW: For air traffic control.
DK: I think it’s Devon. Isn’t it?
EW: I don’t know. I’m not sure where she went.
DK: I think it’s that way.
EW: I can’t remember. But I think it sounds like.
DK: Yeah.
EW: You know. So, anyway she went down there and she came back and she said, ‘Mum, I cannot do that job.’ She said, ‘You’re stuck in this little room and it’s dark and you’ve got all these blips on the screen.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: She said, ‘It would drive me mad.’ So anyway in the end she went in as a medic.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she, she did the, she was in the department at Biggin Hill where these pilots used to go down for their medical.
DK: Right.
EW: Before they had the interview at Cranwell.
DK: Right. Yeah.
EW: Which is why they decided a long time after that it would be cheaper if they had the medical unit.
DK: In Cranwell.
EW: In Cranwell, you know.
DK: Yeah.
EW: It’s a bit like —
DK: Save all the trouble then.
EW: Shutting the stable door after the horse has gone you know. And so anyway that’s what happened. They made a unit in, in so of course she came down and of course she was living quite close to home but she, she did get married and she had a married quarter there.
DK: Right.
EW: But this one. She, well where was she? Where’s that? There’s a hospital somewhere. An RAF hospital. Where’s? I’m trying to think where it was.
DK: Yeah.
EW: This is the trouble when you get old. Your memory goes, you know. Over things that happened recently. I can remember what happened years ago.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: But she had to come out of the RAF because she got married and she was expecting a baby.
DK: Right.
EW: And of course they wouldn’t have married women then in the RAF with children.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EW: So after about, I don’t know how many years she was in but she came out. She had to come out. Well, you’ve heard of the Underwood brothers have you.
DK: Yeah
EW: Yeah. They were big rugby players.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Well, Rory Underwood was a pilot.
DK: Yes. Yes.
EW: And his wife was an officer in the RAF. Well, they chucked her out as well because she’d got a child. So she took the case to —
DK: Court.
EW: Court.
DK: Yeah.
EW: I presume it was the European Court.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And they said that the RAF had no right.
DK: Oh right.
EW: To throw out women when they’d got children because all they had to do was build a creche.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And the mothers would pay for the children to go in the creche. And of course there were schools for English children because in Cyprus Louise’s children went to school there.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But as I say, so of course after, she had another child after that when she was still out.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And eventually Rory Underwood’s wife took as I say took them to the court.
DK: Court. Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And it was ruled that they couldn’t chuck women out. So she went back in.
DK: Oh right.
EW: And she had to do another seven weeks basic training which was a bit of a shock and of course since then they’d moved the WAAFs down to Halton.
DK: Yeah.
EW: So she went down to Halton because she was at Swinderby the first time.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But of course they closed that down now. That’s all gone.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: Both of my girls passed out at Swinderby.
DK: Right.
EW: And then of course she had to come back and she had to pass out at Honington but they did get the flight award and there was an older chappie in there as well and he was called dad and because she’d been in before these young girls called her mum. So they had a mum and dad in their flight.
DK: Yeah. Dear.
EW: So we went to see her pass out again.
DK: So she did twenty two years then.
EW: Yes.
DK: And your other daughter. How many years did she do?
EW: She did nine.
DK: Nine.
EW: She did nine really because she got married and her husband was training as a structural engineer and of course he couldn’t move.
DK: Right.
EW: Because he was doing his chartership.
DK: Right.
EW: And so she said to them, ‘Can you, can I be based in Lincolnshire?’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And of course you know what the RAF’s like. You know, if you ask for something they send you the furthest away.
DK: The exact opposite. Yeah.
EW: Yeah. So they said no. So she said , ‘Well, I have to come out then because,’ she said, ‘My husband is, he can’t move.’
DK: Yeah.
EW: And I’m not moving without him. So that was it. so she said well I’m coming out because she had to decide because she was, she was getting promoted and once your promotion comes in you’ve got to be posted.
DK: Yeah.
EW: And so of course it was either or. And I mean she could have been sent to Lossiemouth or anywhere miles away.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EW: And so she came out but since then she’s worked in a bank and she’s now working for, well she runs a business that they look into the debt, people’s —
DK: Yeah.
EW: Bank accounts if they’re letting houses.
DK: Right.
EW: You know. The rents. To make sure that they’ve got enough money to pay. She’s doing that now but I think she regretted coming out.
DK: Yeah.
EW: But she really didn’t have a choice because —
DK: No.
EW: But funnily enough those two girls married two brothers.
DK: Oh right.
EW: So we have two brothers and two sisters married. Yeah. But —
DK: Ok then. That’s, that’s an hour been recording here so we’ve moved on a bit from the wartime years.
EW: Yes. We have.
DK: I’ll stop it there.
EW: Yes.
DK: But thanks very much for your, your contribution there. I’ll —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Eileen Widdowson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWiddowsonFE180731, PWiddowsonFE1801
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:58:55 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grantham
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Peterborough, Eileen Widdowson’s father died when she was quite young, which resulted in the family moving to Grantham. With the East Coast main railway line and also a munitions factory, Grantham was a regular target for the Luftwaffe. Eileen recalls life at school, describes being told to sit under desks or sitting in the cloakroom with her coat over her head during air raids. On one occasion she had been collected from school by her mother and they had become trapped in a street when a brewers dray horse had bolted, blocking their exit. She recalls looking up at the diving aircraft, and being close enough to be be able to see the pilot’s eyes through his goggles. Workers from all over the country came to work at the munitions factory, and Eileen remembers sleeping three to a bed, to allow workers to be billeted in the spare bedroom. She collected rose hips and watercress to be sold, with profits being donated to the Red Cross. Grantham was a social destination for the many nearby airfields, and although there was little trouble with personnel, she does recall how white and black Americans would often fight, her first experience of racial discrimination. Before marrying, her husband had enlisted in the Royal Engineers after the war and was stationed in Berlin during the Berlin Airlift, working on the airfields. Two of her daughters later joined the RAF. Eileen gives accounts of the experiences of all three, including one of her daughter’s rejoining the RAF after a change in legislation, initially being forced to leave when becoming pregnant.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
African heritage
bombing
childhood in wartime
entertainment
home front
Red Cross
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/17132/PHammondBF1901.1.jpg
ea351847f2a57e04c080b6ff0326b6d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/17132/AHammondBF190212.1.mp3
ac00b22259f28678abeaf6a83b53efad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hammond, Bert
Bertram Hammond
B F Hammond
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bert Hammond. He flew operations as an air gunner with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hammond, BF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BH: Yeah. I mean I’ve sort of give an abbreviation —
DK: Ok. I’ll just, I’ll just do an introduction first.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, I’ll just say this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bert Hammond at his home on the —
BH: Do you want my proper name? Bertram or Bert?
DK: Bertram. We’ll say Bertram.
BH: That’s my proper name.
DK: Bertram. Bertram Hammond. Yeah.
BH: Bertram Frederick Hammond.
DK: Bertram Frederick Hammond on the 12th of February 2019. So, I’ll just put that there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: If I’m looking over I’m just making sure it’s still working.
BH: Yes.
DK: So we spoke a few months ago. Obviously you talked about joining the Air Force.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what do you actually remember about your time in the Air Force then?
BH: Well, I’ll start if off again now with I was born in Norwich. At a young age I joined 233 Squadron ATC. Played football and cricket. And we went flying in Bostons and a Rapide, you know from various squadrons around Norwich. Volunteered aircrew. Medical and selection board at RAF Cardington. I had to come back to have my tonsils and adenoids out. Medically unfit. Joined the RAF at ACRC, St Johns Wood. Where are we then? Had the flu, not flu, the jabs.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Inoculations there and kitted out. Then we went on to RAF Bridlington and did marching primarily there and dinghy drill. Then posted to RAF Bridgenorth. Had a lovely time there because I had a local aunt so had some wonderful Sunday lunches. Then to RAF Morpeth Air Gunnery School and you know ground tuition and flying. I was, at a young age there I was one of the youngest. I also went on these courses I was picked out as a roll of honour guard for an AOC what was coming. He never turned up. They cancelled it. And I also did guard duty. Then we were posted to 26 OTU at Wing and little Horwood which is a combination of the two where we crewed up. Flying and ground instructions and various things like that. On one night we were taking off on a cross country. This was at Waddington and it was a pretty brand new aircraft. It was a pitch dark night and just about to take off when I heard somebody call, “Mayday. Mayday.” Didn’t realise it was me. I was in the tail you see. And the skipper according to all accounts later on was not supposed to keep airborne especially on take-off. Lack of speed.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But he got it around and he landed on the belly but he got a green endorsement for getting an aircraft without crashing it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But that’s all part of what was going on in because they flew night and day.
DK: Yeah.
BH: These OTUs in those days.
DK: Was it, did he become your pilot all the time then?
BH: Yeah. Well, we crewed up there you see.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name?
BH: Yes. It was Flying Officer Michael Warner. Yeah.
DK: Ok.
BH: The other thing was that crewing up was bizarre. You just picked. Picked ab lib you know. He came up to me one day and said, ‘Would you like to be my rear gunner?’ So I felt honoured somebody had asked me [laughs] But that’s, that was the situation there. I was there quite a while. Then we went, posted to RAF Methwold. This was the escape course.
DK: Right.
BH: Training how to be —
DK: Yeah.
BH: [unclear]
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then we went to, posted to Waterbeach. The one, I forget the name. It was a conversion flight which we went on to the Mark 2 Lancasters.
DK: Right.
BH: We then started a squadron. The initial first op the wing commander of the squadron came. You know, came with us. Initial flight. It’s normal when there’s a flight you can only describe this when your name goes up on the battle course, you know it’s in the officer’s and sergeant’s mess. The duty. If your skipper’s down you’re on that night. And then of course the old tummy begins to churn a bit.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You go out and do your DIs. You get an idea of the length of a trip by what’s in the tanks. The petrol tanks. Full tanks, you know it’s a long one. We had a bit of problems. We were on our way to Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhr. We got into a bit of a problem with being shot up a bit with flak. We lost a lot of instruments and the skipper decided to turn back and we made an emergency landing at RAF Woodbridge.
DK: I’ve just found that in your logbook actually.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Operation Gelsenkirchen.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it says landed at Woodbridge. And it was a Lancaster Mark 2.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s saying here that the serial number U826.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it was on the 12th of June 1944.
BH: Yeah [unclear]
DK: So that was just after D-Day then.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Did you actually drop your bombs at Gelsenkirchen?
BH: No.
DK: You came back with them.
BH: No. He lost his instruments and he decided that he’d, and we’d got no navigation whatsoever so I don’t know how he got it back that night at all but because it was pitch back and of course we, of course he’d got no airspeed indicator. He we came in a bit fast but better still than being a bit slow and stalling it.
DK: And you still had the full bomb load.
BH: No. We dumped it.
DK: Oh. Right. Ok.
BH: We dumped. We dumped. No. We dumped a cookie.
DK: Right.
BH: In the North Sea.
DK: Ok.
BH: So [laughs] where we are now? It wasn’t, I said operations were going on just the same as when you were picked and all that. You, some of the, some of the operations were quiet compared with if you went to big cities.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It was a slightly different ball game there because of the intensity of the ack ack, searchlights. Night fighters were always a problem. We went [pause] where are we now? We went to [pause] one. We were going to Stuttgart.
DK: Right.
BH: We went there twice and ironically after the war my pal Richard which you’ve kindly found you know, all the details for me. He was on his first raid. He was on that raid and he never made it back. He’s buried in France.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I may, I said it’s a coincidence I did see a Ju 88 night fighter climb out of a searchlight ready. Ready to home in on us, you know. It may have been the same one I don’t know but it’s a coincidence. After the war you learn these things.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The —
DK: And just going back to your logbook again I see you did Stuttgart on the —
BH: [That’s nine hour] Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 25th of July.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then the 28th of July 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you did Stuttgart twice in three days.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then it’s —
BH: They went, actually went four times.
DK: Four times.
BH: Four nights.
DK: Ok.
BH: Four nights on the run. Yeah.
DK: Right and you’ve mentioned here you say the industrial centre of the town. So —
BH: That’s what, that’s what they told us.
DK: Yeah. So can, can you remember what you could see over the cities then as you were approaching then?
BH: Well, I never saw much of them because being in the tail and then of course I transferred to mid-upper.
DK: Right.
BH: Because I was the only one in the aircraft besides the skipper and the wireless operator who could, who could do Morse.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean at a reasonable speed. I mean I learned it in the ATC.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So we said, ‘Well, you’re no good down the tails. If the other gunner’s prepared to swap, you know,’ he said, ‘You’re nearer in the mid-upper. You’re nearer to the wireless op.’
DK: Ok.
BH: ‘In the case of emergency.’ So that’s what I did. I did that from the start.
DK: So, were all your operations in the mid-upper gun turret then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. And the point was that you could turn and look and sometimes I probably shouldn’t have done but I had a quick look around to see where we were headed and you could see the target ahead.
DK: Right.
BH: And it looks [pause] you think, God we’ve got to go through that. You know, you think you’re never going to make it through that because I mean a big, I’m talking about big towns now like Stuttgart. Stettin we went to near Poland. Bremen. Another one was near Stuttgart. I forget the name of it now. It’s in there.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But those targets we were over big towns. They threw up everything as you might say at you, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Ok. We, I mean we were fortunate. Lucky. Call it what you like. We only had a few holes in the aircraft sometimes but they soon patched them up, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But —
DK: And what was it like then visually as you see all these guns firing at you. What? Was it colourful? Was it —
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Was it like a firework display?
BH: Well, all I can say it’s like a minor, you know London, New Year’s Eve when they have all around the river there. It was similar to that only under a controlled area of course but I mean there’s searchlights up and of course your problem then was fighters from above.
DK: Right.
BH: Because you were silhouetted against all these lights, you see. It’s like a big beam of light with ack ack flying all over the place. So you, you when you come out the other side you think how the hell did we come out? I mean to be honest about it because the point is once a bomb aimer takes control you’re steady. Steady. Steady. Steady, ‘til he drops his bombs. Then you’re still steady because you’ve got to take a photograph.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So you’d about another minute properly and that seems like eternity because I’ll be honest about it you are sitting there saying to yourself, ‘For Christ’s sake drop the ruddy things.’ [laughs]
DK: Could, could you actually hear the bomb aimer then with his instructions? [unclear]
BH: Oh yes. All of it. All on the —
DK: You were sitting at the top there and waiting for him to —
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Say, ’Bombs gone.’
BH: Yeah. He, he’s telling the pilot you see what to do.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So it’s all over the intercom. Yeah.
DK: Right.
BH: Oh yeah. The other thing is of course night fighters were the dreaded things. I mean, you searched, searched, searched and searched. I’ve often come back from, you know long trips with sort of bloodshot eyes and things like that which I’m, which I’m sure was a problem because I’ve had a lot of problems with my eyes over the latter years and I’m sure it’s, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: Partly due to that, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: From my younger days. The other thing was when you’re [pause] the Germans had a, what they called a master searchlight. A blue one.
DK: I was going to ask about that actually. Yeah.
BH: Well, we were caught once.
DK: Right.
BH: And once, once they click on it’s a radar controlled. Once they click on to you up comes supporting you know manual and we got caught this time. We were going away to Stuttgart strange as it may seem and the bomb aimer says, he says, ‘We’re coned.’ That’s right, ‘We’re coned.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he threw out Window. That’s the metal strips.
DK: Yeah.
BH: By the galore, you know [laughs] and the skipper put it into a dive and I watched the searchlight gradually disappear. Normally, once you’re coned you’re in trouble because the fighters are waiting to pounce on you.
DK: So what did the pilot do then? Did he put the aircraft into a dive?
BH: Straight dive.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. And then of course I said the bomb aimer was throwing out this Window. The metal. You know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The metallic strips. It gradually disappeared. But that’s the only time we got coned. We got caught with ack ack. But we were, I mean we were very fortunate let’s put it that way.
DK: Were you ever attacked by a night fighter at all?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No.
DK: But you did see them.
BH: We see them. We evaded them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We saw. This is the point. The whole thing, you see of, of a bomber going out is as far as we were told is to get back so we could go again the next night. Don’t put your bomber into jeopardy otherwise, you know.
DK: Do you think the role of the gunner then was more to observe rather than —
BH: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
DK: Than to fire your guns.
BH: As the skipper said, ‘You’re our eyes.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: Oh yeah. I mean this, it was not, it was not only shall we say enemy fighters. Night fighters. There was also the problem of collisions because if you put like on a big raid shall we say on a town perhaps four hundred aircraft because we start bombing and it’s all over in twenty minutes. Those four hundred aircraft are crammed into that twenty minutes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, they could be above dropping bombs on you. There could be collisions. I mean often we would avoid collisions. Seeing the aircraft, you know just above you or just, you know [pause] because we, you had to tell the skipper every move you see of an aircraft because he might make the run or suddenly dive or pull up out of the way of something and go in to the aircraft. So you have to be, you are the eyes. It’s simple as what Mick said.
DK: Yeah. It must have been quite frightening as you were in the mid-upper gun turret and seeing an aircraft above you then.
BH: Well, you just tell the, you just tell the skipper, you know. That Halifax Lancaster whatever it may be, you know, above you. You know. Otherwise keep still. Don’t move.
DK: Yeah [laughs]
BH: That was a big problem. Collisions. There, there isn’t much I can say about operations except that [pause] you always went for your briefing in the, you know and the first thing you looked at was where the tape ended to see where you were going. It’s a funny thing but you know I said you were always apprehensive. There was always a bit of nervousness.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Until you got in the aircraft and then you had a job to do. Then they used to stand at the runway and wave you off. There would always be, you know a contingent of some RAF there of some sort. But the funny thing as you got on ops, you got experienced. It became a sort of a challenge, you know. It’s a bit of excitement come into it because you know you were trying to get back home again sort of thing, you know. Safe.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: That was, that’s a feeling where I’m doing the best I can because you were a member of a crew which you became very very close. That’s all I can say about that. But it wasn’t all ops on the squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: This, where are we now? On, we went to, oh well one day of course, the skipper was an officer and we went in to of course that was a peacetime camp at Waterbeach. They had barrack rooms. So rather than go in to the mess where he couldn’t come in we went in to the barrack room so he could come and join us. He came over one morning and he said, ‘Right lads,’ he says, ‘Pack your bags, he said.’ We’re off.’ We said, ‘Where are we going?’ He said, ‘We’re going to Farnborough.’
DK: Yeah.
BH: So we said, ‘What?’ You know, we said ‘Well, what are we going there for?’ He said, ‘We don’t know until we get there.’ But he said, ‘The adjutant has just told me you’re down there.’ And we went down to Farnborough and we found out we were experimental flying with a captured Ju 88 night fighter.
DK: Oh right.
BH: It’s in the logbook there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Which is, which was a bit unconcerning because they put a hood over the, it was daylight we were doing it. Put a hood over the, over this night fighter. He was sort of flying by night you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he could home on us just like that.
DK: Really?
BH: Yeah.
DK: So were they testing the airborne radars on the —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ju 88.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And homing in on you.
BH: How they homed on to them. Yes. And it was all down through, they found it was all done through the kind of intercom system.
DK: Oh right.
BH: The next —
DK: Did you manage to get a good view of the Ju 88? Were you able to —
BH: Oh yeah. He come up you know. He homed onto us.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he was flying about all over around Farnborough and that for a while.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. But it was, it was, it didn’t give you much pleasure to find out how easy he could home in on you.
DK: I can understand that. And did you manage to have a look on board the Ju 88?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No. They wouldn’t allow us. No.
DK: No.
BH: We tried to but they wouldn’t allow us to.
DK: So you did actually land at Farnborough then.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. And then did the experiment then.
BH: Yeah. We had a, the other thing was we had our lunch there and we come back and I think we were on ops that night. I’m not sure.
DK: Actually, I’ve just found it in your logbook here.
BH: Yes.
DK: So, it’s the 8th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve gone in Lancaster Mark 2. It’s Q666.
BH: Yeah. That was from the conversion flight.
DK: Right. Ok. So you’ve flown from base to Farnborough and the next, later that day you’ve got here so that’s later that day on the 8th of August 1944 experimental flying with Ju 88.
BH: Yes.
DK: So you didn’t put in your logbook anything about the radar then.
BH: No. No.
DK: And as I see then the 18th then. So a few days later you were then operations to Bremen.
BH: Yeah. Oh of course we went the same.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I don’t know how long we [pause] I think we stopped.
DK: It looks like the 18th. Oh, it might be the same day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It might be the 8th.
BH: Anyway, the next, the next thing was that we went to a call. Got another call later. Well, I don’t know what date. What time of year. I can’t remember. It’s probably in the logbook. I never looked. The skipper came in again. He says, he says, ‘Get your, get your kit bags.’ Your bags you know. You carry your utensils in for staying a night or two. He said, ‘We’re off to RAF Benson.’ ‘What for?’ Now, previous to that the skipper had come in and he said, ‘Do you know what?’ He said, ‘I was having my breakfast this morning,’ he said, ‘In the officers mess and I said to the chappy with me, I said — ’ he said, ‘That civilian over there,’ he said, ‘God, he does look like Edward G Robinson. The film star.’ He said, ‘It is him.’ He said, ‘What’s he doing here then?’ He said, ‘Well, he’s going to make a film,’ he says, ‘And he’s come to get experience of an RAF Squadron.’ So whether it was anything to do with that I do not know.
DK: No.
BH: But a few days later we were off to RAF Benson. That’s a photographic unit.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: We made a film of some sort. I never knew much about it. I was, I was —
DK: So was he on board your aircraft then?
BH: No. No. No.
DK: Right.
BH: No. We never saw him. I never saw.
DK: Never saw him.
BH: I don’t know how long he stopped. But we went down to RAF Benson. We made a film. I was, I was in the film as a wireless. As a wireless op.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: And the skipper flew in on one, you know with one engine cut, you know. That was the photographic section. Section.
DK: Right.
BH: That was, that was —
DK: So there should be a bit of film of you somewhere then at Benson.
BH: I would have thought so.
DK: Yeah. I’ve just found it on your logbook actually.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, just for the recording here.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: It was, that was on, that was on the 4th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And you went in Lancaster 2F 612.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, base to Benson and then it looks like you flew back the next day on the 5th.
BH: Yeah. It wasn’t long.
DK: Benson to base. So there was a bit of filming going on then.
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But as —
DK: And was your aircraft filmed as well then, was it?
BH: Oh yes. But that aircraft, but these aircraft were from the conversion flight, you know.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: We didn’t, I mean obviously we couldn’t take a squadron kite because they were in use you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But I mean the O-Oboe which you’ve got there. As I said it tells you that we did, even when we went on to Mark 3 we remained as O-Oboe.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: That was our permanent aircraft, you see.
DK: I’m with you. Yeah. I see it. O.
BH: Yeah. Also, also on the where are we? [pause] visiting July was the King and Queen and Princess Elizabeth came. Came to, you know visit us there. It was all hush hush sort of thing.
DK: Was that at Waterbeach?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Waterbeach.
BH: I found some photographs on my pad.
DK: Right.
BH: Because I wasn’t sure of the date. I don’t know if it was June or July because it wouldn’t be in my logbook obviously.
DK: No. No. No.
BH: And they all did like aircraft lined up on the runway and pictures.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And all taken about that. Spitfires flying overhead.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course who it was, and nobody knew what it was. Nobody knew what it was until they arrived. Absolute circus of security.
DK: Were you introduced to the King and Queen?
BH: He went past me.
DK: Right.
BH: But the Queen, what’s known later as the Queen Mother.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: She used to call us, ‘Our little boys. Young boys.’ She was, of course you look at the photographs around here. We look so young. Well, because we look so old now [laughs]. But that was, in fact after we finished a tour we were going to PFF. 7 Squadron at Oakington. But the wireless operator, Jim he was the eldest, he said, ‘I don’t like to do this but I’ve got two boys,’ he said, ‘And I think I’ve been lucky. We’ve been lucky up until now.’ So he didn’t go and then of course we all ummed and ahhed, sort of thing. The only person what went was the bomb aimer, Cyril.
DK: Right.
BH: But I finished up then going to [pause] where are we? Went. Got posted. Posted to RAF Nairn.
DK: Right.
BH: Up in the north near Inverness. This was a aerodrome which had been built and not in use but I think it was a kind of a rest camp until they sorted you all out. There were quite a few of us there. Then I was posted to RAF Manby.
DK: Right.
BH: Air Armaments School, and became an instructor ground and air. And as I said I met some interesting people there.
DK: I see from your logbook at Manby you were flying Wellingtons again.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Were they were they quite old then and a bit clapped out?
BH: They weren’t too bad.
DK: Right.
BH: They weren’t too bad. The only thing I would say there is you often hear, you know, luck is on your side. One morning I was down to fly down to Wales. I forget the name of the camp now. We were going down to pick up another Wellington. I can’t think of the name anyway. Anyway, I was late. I missed, I missed the bus down to flight, you know. Of course, I walked down but of course by that time they’d taken off. I normally flew with a warrant officer [pause] Oh God, here we go again [pause]. Jock. I forgot his name. He’s in there somewhere. But as the day went on a big thunderstorm came over and a Flight Sergeant Townsend. That was the other one.
DK: Townsend. Yeah.
BH: He picked up this aircraft that had no ground communications at all. Should never have flown. He got into the, into the storm. He got puzzled where ever he was and just flew in to the North Sea. And I could have been on that aircraft.
DK: You could have been on it and it’s only because you missed the bus.
BH: Yeah. I was late.
DK: And that was flying, Flying Officer Townsend.
BH: Flight Sergeant.
DK: Flight Sergeant. Sorry. Flight Sergeant Townsend.
BH: Usually go warrant officer.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The other I flew a lot with. But this was [pause] I played football over there for the station with pros and against. The RAF was a great education of people during the war you come up against. As I said, Ronnie Price. I met him occasionally and he became quite, he became very famous. One of the top session musicians.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I tried to get some of his CDs. Couldn’t. And my cleaning lady who is a friend also, she saw, she got me some now.
DK: Oh good.
BH: I’ve got, I’ve got his obituary.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We used to take a paper. I’ve got it in there.
DK: You can listen to him again then.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got a player. I mean, he taught me a lot.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Taught me. I mean I’ll give a little idea when I played in little dance bands you know. I’ve played in pubs with concert rooms you know. You name it I’ve played there. Night clubs. And the night club was organists. They were pros.
DK: Is it, do you still play at all?
BH: Only for fun.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: I mean, I can’t play. My legs aren’t very good now and I, my organ is a bit of a problem so I changed. My, my Kate my friend she says, ‘Why don’t you find out?’ But she said, you know, ‘Why don’t you do this or do that and she she pushed me and thankfully she did into buying a keyboard.
DK: Oh ok.
BH: Wonderful.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Get all sorts of things on that.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. It looks very impressive.
BH: Well, it’s, it’s music was a big part of my life.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: All down to, I mean my father taught me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But Ronnie Price because I wanted to play dance music. My father was a sort of semi-classical pianist, you know. Very good.
DK: So you did thirty operations then altogether.
BH: Sorry?
DK: You did thirty operations.
BH: That’s right. Yes.
DK: With 514. So you didn’t do a second tour of operations then.
BH: No.
DK: The intention was you were going to go to the Pathfinder Force.
BH: Well, I were. We were. But as I said, you know we weren’t, if we didn’t go as a team you know we said, you know, we won’t go. I mean, as I say only one went. I mean, as far as I’m aware he survived the war.
DK: Right.
BH: Did Cyril.
DK: Did you get back in touch with your crew after the war at all?
BH: Yeah. I phoned up and we called him Mick, Michael and I was here. I mean, it was well after the war and I knew he came from Ipswich and I came from Norwich so we had a kind of affinity with being close together in, you know in that way. Counties.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I sat, I sat in my office one night and I thought to myself oh, I went through the book and I couldn’t find anything about Ipswich in it, you see. So I thought, well I went across to the post office about a week later and I thought, I wonder if they’ve got any [unclear] books there. And of course it comes under Colchester.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I found his name in there as Ipswich, you know. Michael John Walker. And, I thought, well I took down the number and gave it a ring and a lady answered the phone. So I thought, so I said, ‘I’m looking for Michael John Walker.’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ll get my son.’ Anyway, of course I explained who I was. She said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Oh, Mike, will be so pleased to hear from you,’ she said. She said, ‘I’ll give you his home address. He lives in Bedfordshire now.’
DK: Right.
BH: Lives at Bedford. He was flying. He did BOAC.
DK: Right.
BH: And then of course he got married and he went for the short hauls. And I phoned him up and as I said we met at the George you know and then I —
DK: And he was your pilot then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And he went, we went to I didn’t know who else. We contacted the other gunner. He came from Birmingham.
DK: Are they the people named in here?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Your crew.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We made contact with Jock the navigator. Jock Tait.
DK: Right. So — sorry go on.
BH: We found Jimmy Foyle, the wireless op.
DK: Right.
BH: The only one we couldn’t find was the bomb aimer Cyril and the flight engineer.
DK: Right.
BH: Tommy.
DK: That’s Tommy Buchanan.
BH: God, he was a looking, good looking [laughs] God, he was like a film star. Yeah.
DK: He’s got the right name hasn’t he? Buchanan.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, your pilot then, just for the recording then was Flying Officer Warner.
BH: Michael John Warner. Yeah.
DK: Michael John Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Your flight engineer was Buchanan.
BH: Tommy Buchanan.
DK: Sergeant Tommy Buchanan.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The bomb aimer was Flight Sergeant C Holmes.
BH: Cyril Holmes.
DK: Cyril Holmes.
BH: He became an officer.
DK: And you haven’t, you never contacted him again.
BH: No. We couldn’t find him.
DK: So the navigator was Sergeant J Tait.
BH: He became an officer.
DK: Right. And then wireless operator was Warrant Officer J Foyle.
BH: Jimmy Foyle. Yeah.
DK: So the gunners were yourself —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Bert Hammond.
BH: And Don Shepherd.
DK: Yeah. Don Shepherd. And did you contact Don Shepherd?
BH: Yeah. We used to meet up.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We used to meet up at [pause] there was, first of all there was Jimmy. The other gunner, Don. The navigator Jock Tait.
DK: Jock Tait.
BH: Tommy Tait. Jock Tait.
DK: Tommy Tait.
BH: And we first met up at Peterborough.
DK: Right.
BH: Then we went to, met up at Leicester. And then we met up again. Oh, we went to Leicester two or three times and stopped the weekend, you know. And then we went to, up to York.
DK: And this is your Lancaster here then.
BH: That’s the one I did seventeen ops in. In the Mark 2. Yeah.
DK: So you did seventeen ops and it’s Lancaster O.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 734.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Of B Flight.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: B flight of 514 Squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Waterbeach. So you did seventeen ops on the Mark 2. Were the rest on the Mark 3 then?
BH: Yeah. Well, and other Mark 2s.
DK: Other Mark 2s.
BH: Yeah. Until we got allocated to O-Oboe as our permanent one we did on N-Nuts, U-Uncle, Q-Queenie. You know. That was all on B Flight.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. And then we got allocated that and we kept O-Oboe. We went on to the Mark 3. But —
DK: And, and how did you find the different Marks of Lancaster then? The two.
BH: The Mark 2 was quiet. It was very good near the ground but it struggled up at eighteen thousand. In fact, the maximum the Mark, Mark 3 was, you seemed ages getting up but once it got higher and higher it was, you know it went up to twenty two, twenty three thousand feet.
DK: So the Mark 2 had a higher rate of climb but it couldn’t keep going then. Yeah.
BH: Couldn’t reach the maximum. The maximum was about eighteen thousand.
DK: And were they faster off the runway at all?
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So they were a faster aircraft.
BH: Yeah. On the ground.
DK: On the ground. On the ground, yeah.
BH: Yeah. On ground level shall we say.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But the equipment was, I mean we first of all we had Gee navigation which was ok up to, I think about two hundred miles. After that it faded away. Then of course we had H2S underneath which was just brilliant wasn’t it? I mean the only thing we felt, you know like the two gunners and the wireless op who operated, he had a night fighter detector. We felt that if we put out the impulse they could home on that.
DK: Picking it up. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: So we decided to, that’s why I think we survived a lot we, we relied on our eyes.
DK: Did you switch the H2S on and off then?
BH: I don’t know.
DK: Right. It wasn’t on all the time.
BH: I don’t think so.
DK: No.
BH: I don’t think so. You see the bomb, the bomb aimer was, he was an excellent map reader.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean, he could pick up on the ground. He used to give [pause] what shall I say? Help to the navigator. You know, give him fixes. What they call fixes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you think the defensive armour wasn’t very good because there was nothing looking down was there?
BH: There was on the Mark 2 if you look.
DK: Right.
BH: It’s a single gun look.
DK: Ah.
BH: Now, there aren’t many people know that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: When people says it wasn’t.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I say well I’ve got a photograph to prove it.
DK: And it’s on there. That’s Lancaster 734.
BH: It’s supposed to be the wireless op. He wouldn’t go down. He said it was too bloody cold [laughs]
DK: So it was never used then.
BH: No.
DK: But you did have one pointing down.
BH: That was the part where they used to come up. They’d got these German night fighters. I think mostly it was the Ju 88. Up guns
DK: [unclear]
BH: They used to come up from underneath.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course they come up from the dark part of the earth, you see. You got a sky you can see something in the sky even on a dark night. But the earth is pitch black.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean you were hoping for some little glimpse of something that’s all.
DK: Did the pilot move the aircraft a lot so you could see down?
BH: No. No. I used to lean over.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: I’d look underneath. And then the rear gunner used to, used to, you know [pause] specialise in looking down.
DK: Right.
BH: But I kept my look on the wings and up above.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: You know. Then of course we said, ‘Right. We’re now, we’re all on the ground, you know. We communicated.
DK: So this under belly gun then.
BH: It was a 303.
DK: It was a 303, and that was for the wireless operator to use when he —
BH: Well, there’s nobody else unless the mid-upper.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Unless the mid-upper went down.
DK: You never went down.
BH: No.
DK: So it was never really used then.
BH: Well, it wasn’t because the point was that you were restricted of view because you could only look down. You can’t look beyond you. You see what I mean?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because there’s a hole where it goes out and that’s the only view you’ve got.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So anything coming up behind you you can’t see. So —
DK: Well, you’d be looking in the dark again anyway wouldn’t you?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Looking down.
BH: I mean you’re far better to be something where you could look a little bit ahead and then look down.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This time you could only look straight down more or less. There wasn’t a lot of room to view something.
DK: Did you used to practice the corkscrew manoeuvre?
BH: Oh yeah. I mean —
DK: What was that like?
BH: I remember [laughs] I remember the first time was at OTU. I think it’s flying officer somebody calls us. He goes, he was, he was our instructor all through you know and by the time we were up there [pause] ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘We’re on corkscrew.’ And he said, you know today and he explained it all. Well, I didn’t know what to expect. I know you go down and anyway of course you had an aircraft attacking you, you see and he slung this one and it seemed to go straight down. And of course the G Force. You’re just pinned against you, I mean I was in the rear turret then because they were, they were Wellingtons.
DK: Right.
BH: You’re just pinned. You can’t fire anything because you’re just like frozen. The G Force was pushing you against the back of the ruddy turret. They pulled out at the bottom with more G Force.
DK: Yeah. The other way.
BH: Talk of that, when we were at Manby they, because it was Empire Air Armaments School they, I mean we started doing some experiment with what’s the name sight. Gyro sight.
DK: Right.
BH: Because that was always the ring and bead he you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s a new gyro sight you see. That’s all in my logbook there and we were doing all these experiments on ordinary flights. Full scale combat, you know. Fighters. Spitfires attacking you. And this particular [laughs] this particular morning I crawled down, you know. There had been the sergeant’s mess dance the night before. And anyway, this flight lieutenant there and he said, he said, ‘Oh, I’m glad you’ve arrived,’ he says, ‘Hammond.’ So I said, ‘Oh yes, sir.’ He said, ‘Well, you know what you’re on this morning.’ I said, ‘No. I’ve no idea.’ ‘Full scale combat manoeuvre.’ I thought oh God. Anyway, we went up and I’m not kidding we didn’t have one Spitfire attacking we had two. When one finished the other one started. I’m sure he did it deliberately [laughs] That was the only time I’ve ever felt sick in an aircraft. Mind you that was no breakfast.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And did you ever use this evasive manoeuvre —
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: On operations?
BH: Only on occasions where once or twice we weren’t sure if we saw anything so we made him over.
DK: Right.
BH: Just weaving. To get us a bit of you know, to look underneath, you know. But we —
DK: Did you think those that were shot down then were probably either unlucky or they weren’t trained enough to to look and weave and manoeuvre?
BH: The trouble was I feel that we weren’t aware of the German night fighters coming up underneath with these two guns pointing. I mean they just pointed to the petrol tanks.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They weren’t worried about the engine. I mean if they got the petrol tank. Boom.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean, I mean they had cannons on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They didn’t, they didn’t have just machine guns. I mean, I mean I think we weren’t aware at that time.
DK: I was going to say is that something you found out about —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Since the war. They didn’t tell you at the time.
BH: We suspected something like that but there was never anything. Not until the latter part of my tour did they mention it.
DK: Really?
BH: But I think we went, people went back you see and reported. I mean, if you’re shot down you can’t report it can you?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I mean it’s, it’s a something which it’s hard to explain to people when you’re in a situation where you know there’s always tension. There’s always tension and you’re, you’re keyed up.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you know. Well, you, I don’t say you’re frightened for your life but you trying to protect your life and your comrades with you.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So you, you know you can be jumpy. That’s why I used to make sure my turret was spotlessly clean because you could be firing at a speck [laughs] on the turret. I mean, that’s how, that’s how jumpy you can get, you see.
DK: Yeah. Is that something you personally did then? Clean the turret.
BH: Oh yeah. The ground crew did it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I checked it.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. And I checked my guns. I made sure of that. Yeah.
DK: So what did you think of the Browning machine guns because they were only quite a small calibre weren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Up against the Germans.
BH: They [pause] I think primarily the mid-upper, the rear had four and I think that was a better combination.
DK: Right.
BH: For defence. Two. I don’t know whether that would be. I mean two obviously together God you’ve got six machine guns but you had to be fairly close to be effective.
DK: Yeah.
BH: There’s no good being about four hundred yards away because, you know. But I mean you know, but I mean its close encounter anyway at night but it’s going to be a sudden burst.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And it’s got to be in the right place. There’d be, I mean plenty of gunners shot down night fighters. Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Were you aware of any in your squadron who had actually shot down German —
BH: Oh yes. Oh yes.
DK: Night fighters.
BH: That’s where you get your information from.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s how they suddenly realised they were coming up underneath.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, when we first went nothing was said. It must be around about [pause] I’m only trying to remember where they went into the briefing room and the gunnery officer said, ‘Be aware of aircraft underneath. You are well aware of the Junkers 88 fitted up with two vertical guns or more or less. Coming up underneath.’ And that’s the first time it was ever mentioned.
DK: Right.
BH: Because that was information fed back by people who had survived, you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s very, I mean today, I mean I say one little thing triggers off another because you [pause] I mean when I came out of the Air Force I wasn’t interested in flying, you know. I wanted to go on with my life sort of thing, you know.
DK: But your pilot though did, didn’t he? He joined BOAC.
BH: Yeah. He went. As I say he’s somewhere in that book.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s marked there. He crashed out in, I don’t know if it was the Bahamas or somewhere out there. They ran into a storm.
DK: Right.
BH: And they survived obviously but he had a nice, made a nice career of it.
DK: And was he —
BH: He married a, he married a —
DK: A stewardess.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Mind you that was one of the old ones. She could speak two or three languages.
DK: Oh right.
BH: We’re still in contact. I mean the skipper, I’m the only survivor now.
DK: Right.
BH: But the skipper’s wife is still alive. She was a lot younger, Zina. We have a chat on the phone now and again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: She sent me a book. 514 Squadron.
DK: Right.
BH: And, and for Christmas my friend who’s a cleaner what comes today, Kate. She gave me another book.
DK: Oh right.
BH: One was operations of all 514 Squadron what Zina sent. There’s plenty of books out.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s rather strange.
DK: There are. Yes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There’s lots of them there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok then. Well, that’s, that’s been very interesting. That and our early interview.
BH: Well, it’s a bit fuller isn’t it?
DK: It is. Yeah. I mean the other was a bit more of an outline of what you did.
BH: Yes.
DK: This is a bit more full of other bits there.
BH: Well, if it’s any help. A pleasure.
DK: No. It’s been marvellous. Ok, well I’ll turn, turn the recording off now but thanks very much for that.
BH: Oh, you’re welcome.
DK: That’s very interesting.
BH: You’re most welcome.
DK: Thank you.
BH: It’s nice, it’s nice to think somebody is, is still interested.
DK: Oh yes. There’s, there’s quite a few people out there interested in it all.
BH: Yeah. I mean I —
DK: You know. Your stories.
BH: You know, when I went to meet they were very very kind there to me.
DK: Oh yes. Because you went to the BBMF recently didn’t you?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They showed you the Lancaster there then.
BH: Oh, went around it.
DK: Did you? Did they let you get on board?
BH: No.
DK: No. Oh.
BH: Of course because of my [unclear]
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: But I mean they were —
DK: I did see a picture of you there actually [unclear]
BH: I’ve got some.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got some there and I got a picture when I went to the museum and you know got, they got some pictures there as well. But I mean both places went out of their way.
DK: Yeah. Oh, that’s good.
BH: The one that I’ll tell you it’s a bit, a bit amusing because Kate’s, that’s my, you know my friend, cleaner. He was ex-RAF and he’s got a lot of contacts and he got me to the Battle of Britain Flight.
DK: Right.
BH: And he took me.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Took the day off. He’s his own boss, you know. I walked in. We sat down. It’s only another pilot from Lincoln there. It was a Veteran’s Day. What they call Veteran’s Day.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And there was another pilot from Lincoln, you see and he’d only done three ops. But that’s immaterial. He was a pilot. He experienced it didn’t he?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Anyway, sat talking. Sat down and overcame a couple of ladies because we went in to an area where they had got brochures and —
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: For sale and things like you have at your museum.
DK: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And we sat there talking and these two ladies come over and one sat down. The other one wanted, one blonde lady sat down with me and she wanted to know all particulars and all that. I wrote, she said, ‘Oh, have you got a pen.’ I said, ‘No.’ Went and got a pen from somewhere and it was one of these you could buy, you know. So anyway, she wrote all the particulars down. ‘Well, where do — ’ you know, ‘Where have you, how far have you come today?’ I said, ‘Oh, not far.’ She said, ‘Where?’ I said, ‘Leasingham.’ Well, of course it’s Leasingham. A lot of people, we —
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: Locals call it Leasingham.
DK: Leasingham. I did wonder which it was actually.
BH: Well, locals called it Leasingham.
DK: Leasingham. Ok.
BH: But I mean she said oh I only live about a couple of miles way.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So, she said, ‘Oh,’ She said, ‘I’ll be able to come and visit you there.’ So anyway, she said, ‘Oh you can have this pen.’ She had this pen and we had a snack lunch and they looked after us really well, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And after we’d looked around all the aircraft and that and of course they’re in pieces.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BH: And anyway, of course coming away you know of course Kate’s husband Del, he got, he borrowed a sort of pushchair and I said, ‘No. I’ll try and walk because the doctor said to try and keep walking.’
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Anyway, I’m trying and as I’m walking out to go out to the car park this arm came through my hand. I looked around there’s the blonde lady in the car park. She said, ‘Oh, I bought you this.’ A nice, nice little box of the biscuits, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: With the nice fancy lid with a Lancaster on.
DK: Oh, that was nice. That was nice of her.
BH: So she kissed me on the lips goodbye.
DK: Must have made your day then.
BH: Del, Del he’s a bit of a lad. He said, ‘Come on now,’ he said, ‘Have you finished with your girlfriend?’ I’d only just met her that day. But she would, she came here at Christmas. Lovely Christmas card.
DK: Yeah. Oh excellent.
BH: And a keyring with a Lancaster on it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wonderful.
BH: Yeah.
DK: People do show an interest. People do show an interest. Ok. Well, I’ll switch off there. Now, that’s marvellous. Thanks very much for your time.
BH: As I said, as long as, as long as we’re not because we had a rough time after the war.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Bomber command.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Nobody wanted to know us. They condemned us. And after all we didn’t know what we were dropping.
DK: No.
BH: It was pitch dark.
DK: No.
BH: Or where we were dropping it rather, I mean. And I think it’s, I think people realise now. But I mean it’s as I said we’re not looking for any accolades. We just like people to remember what it was for.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was all.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The same with the Army and Navy, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: The same. I mean, it was, it was for freedom. We won’t go on to that.
DK: No. No. Well, on that point, that’s an important point though I’ll switch off now.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Hammond. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHammondBF190212, PHammondBF1901
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:51:08 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Upon volunteering for aircrew, Bert Hammond completed basic training and formed a crew at 26 Operational Training Unit, RAF Wing. He joined 514 Squadron based at RAF Waterbeach and completed thirty operations, before instructing at RAF Manby. Despite training as a rear gunner, Hammond swapped with the mid-upper gunner due to his familiarity with morse code. He describes an emergency landing after anti-aircraft fire damaged instruments forcing them to turn back before reaching Gelsenkirchen, the terrifying view of the night sky over the city targets, and how his pilot once evaded a radar-controlled blue searchlight. He also recalls a royal visit to the squadron, experimental flying with a captured Ju 88 to test the airborne radar, and being featured in a film at RAF Benson. Hammond suggests that his most important role was not firing, but acting as the eyes of the aircraft to prevent collisions, therefore he routinely cleaned his turret before each operation. He postulates many planes were lost due to inexperience and lacking knowledge of night fighters shooting petrol tanks from below. He states the close bond and efficient communication between his crew secured their safety, hence upon completing their tour, they refused to join a pathfinder squadron after the wireless operator opted out.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
Germany
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-12
1944-07-25
1944-07-28
1944-08-04
1944-08-08
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
26 OTU
514 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Ju 88
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Benson
RAF Manby
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wing
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1262/17135/PSmithDA1901.2.jpg
f068e3d6817394db0223c0a31545a439
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1262/17135/ASmithDA190219.2.mp3
2eabbde8694ea974c6013caea6c115c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Douglas Arthur
D A Smith
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Douglas Arthur Smith who flew with 76 and 158 Squadron as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, DA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, this I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing, do you like, are you Doug Smith or —
DS: Yes.
DK: Doug Smith at his, Douglas Smith, at his home on the 19th of February 2019. I’ll just make sure that’s working. Ok. If I just put that a bit nearer to you. If, if I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s still working.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So what I wanted to ask you first of all was what were you doing immediately before the war?
DS: Before the war I, I was living in a small village called Bressingham near Diss in Norfolk and I’m the son of an ex-World War One —
DK: Veteran.
DS: Veteran.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Who was also injured during then. And I was born three years after World War One. My family, they’re agricultural people.
DK: Right.
DS: My father was a farmer, and when the war broke out —
DK: I might just come a bit closer to you if that’s ok.
DS: Yeah.
DK: If I move that there. Is it ok if a sit here?
DS: Yeah. Sure.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Sorry. You were saying.
DS: Yeah. As I said I was born the son of a farmer and well, you see the real Depression after the First World War.
DK: Do you know, do you know much about your father? What he did in the First World War?
DS: He, yes he was, he was a soldier that fought in the, on the Somme.
DK: Right.
DS: And unfortunately he got injured with shrapnel and had to be repatriated. And as I said from then on I came on the scene [laughs] and a sister. My sister. And when World War Two broke out. I just fancied I’d like to join the Royal Air Force because all youngsters at that time —
DK: Did your, did your father advise against the Army then, did he?
DS: No. He didn’t have anything. To be quite honest my father, I did all this on my own back.
DK: Oh, right.
DS: I didn’t have any discouragement or any encouragement.
DK: So what, what made you look towards the Air Force then? Was there something that drew you to it?
DS: Well, I think, I think the idea of flying.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I mean flying was in, well it was in it’s the initial stages in them days.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: And I think a lot of youngsters. So I just went down to Norwich and enlisted and, and that’s where I started my career, and that was in 1940.
DK: So —
DS: October.
DK: Right.
DS: 1940.
DK: And how old would you have been then?
DS: Nineteen.
DK: Nineteen.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Right. So, what, what’s your first sort of posting then in the Air Force? What did you do first of all?
DA: Well, first of all —
DK: I mean, presumably were you looking to become a pilot? Did you think or —
DS: Well, in the selection board once you, when I went to Norwich to get enlisted, they took all particulars and I went through various examinations, tests and, and they asked you what your background was. And they then suggested that I became a wireless operator although I would like like everybody else to have been a pilot.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: But I was enlisted as a wireless operator/air gunner.
DK: Right.
DS: And then from then on just went through the basic foot bashing stage of the —
DK: Yeah. Is that something you took to was it? Or was it something you liked? Or —
DS: Well, it was quite new to someone who lived in the country and it all came, well I was surprised. But that was intriguing actually really.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember where it was you did you square bashing?
DS: Yes. I went to Blackpool.
DK: Right.
DS: And done all the square bashing there, and after that there was a period when I had to wait for the training to do with the flying side because the square bashing was just a preliminary.
DK: So, presumably this would have been your first time away from home then was it?
DS: That was my first time away from home.
DK: Yeah.
DS: We were billeted in private hotels and in hotel accommodation sort of thing. Then once we’d finished that we had, we all, everybody had to be put somewhere and, while they were waiting for the air training side of the, of the Air Force and I went to, I was stationed at Norwich for a while. Attached to the signals to get some idea because they were [pause] what I had to face eventually because we got with, operating Morse Code and all that sort of thing. And then from then on I was, I went to an Air Gunnery School at Evanton in Scotland to learn all about the machine gunning. What the aircraft would be.
DK: So what was the training like then on the machine guns? Did you, were you taking them apart or —
DS: Well, you had to take them to pieces and —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Know how they operated if you got stoppages and just mainly getting to know. I think that they were, the guns were Brownings I think and just get general knowledge of what you actually might need to handle.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Although my main job really finished up as a wireless operator.
DK: Right.
DS: I never had anything further to do with the gunnery side apart from taking the course. The course in gunnery which everybody had to do. The first aircraft I think I flew was a, was a Botha.
DK: Oh right.
DS: Which was —
DK: Yeah.
DA: A lot of people haven’t even heard of today.
DK: I’ve heard of them. What was that like then? Your first flight in one of these old things.
DS: Well, as I say that was one of the first flights I did. I couldn’t compare that one with any other.
DK: No.
DS: Back then when I first got there. Looking back they were very daunting and they were [laughs] they were not over safe either.
DK: No.
DS: And then once I completed the gunnery course —
DK: Did you, did you do any air to air firing?
DS: Yes.
DK: At that point?
DS: Oh yes.
DK: At the drogues.
DS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Firing on drogues and I’ve got it all recorded in my logbook there. And, and then after that [pause] let me think. Get this right.
DK: It would have been for the wireless operations.
DA: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DA: I think I went back to Blackpool again because that was where I had to learn Morse Code and —
DK: Right.
DS: And, and that’s, once again we were billeted in the hotel and guest houses, and our training, the training when we were learning was in a tram shed in Blackpool, and they were all set out for all the pupils to get to know what Morse Code was about. And you had, once you completed your course you had, you had to maintain eighteen words a minute.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Once you passed that. And then from there —
DK: Is it, was Morse Code something you found you could pick up easily was it or —
DS: Well, for some. It wasn’t easy. But was interesting and same old double Dutch to start with but I got there in the end.
DK: Right.
DS: Which most of us did. Some of them failed.
DK: And how many words a minute did you have to do?
DS: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen.
DS: Eighteen words a minute. Yeah.
DK: Right.
DS: And, and then after that I went to Abingdon where I met the, met up with the, where we met up with the crew.
DK: Right.
DS: You know. I went there as an individual. You met up and you formed. You formed a crew which my crew was Sergeant Hickman, and —
DK: And this would have been the Operational Training Unit.
DS: That’s an operational, yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: That’s an OTU. An Operational Training Unit and that was, that was on Wellingtons.
DK: So, how did you think that worked with you meeting up with your crew. Just putting everybody together in a hangar sort of thing? Did that, that work out well?
DS: Yes. Well, of course we were, they were all, we were all strangers. We were all experiencing the same, the same problem, you know. Meeting someone for the first time.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But, but you became like a little family in the end because you social, you socialised.
DK: Socialised. Yeah.
DS: Socialised [laughs] rather together and you more or less lived together and as I said you became a family and we were, once we went through all the process of the OTU which meant —
DK: If I just go back to the OTU. What did you think of the Wellingtons then, as an aircraft? Were they —
DS: Well, they were much better than the Botha [laughs] At least that was the [pause] I think the Botha was a, I’m not quite sure if that was a single engine or not, but yeah that was a little step up going to the Wellington but —
DK: And your, your pilots name was?
DS: Sergeant Hickman.
DK: Hickman. Right. Ok. And was he, was he a good pilot?
DS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I think so. He was, as I said they all had to pass to a certain standard so I mean, yeah. Yes. They were. He was, he was quite good and unfortunately later on he bought it as we called, used to say in the Air Force.
DK: So moving on from the OTU then what was, what was your next, next step then?
DS: The next step from the OTU was I went to [pause] to —
DK: Was it 76 Squadron?
DS: 76 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Is it alright if I look at your logbook?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Is that ok?
[pause]
DS: Yeah.
DK: So I just —
DS: To Linton on Ouse. I went to Linton on Ouse.
DK: Right.
DS: The station commander, or at least the squadron commander of 76 Squadron which I joined was Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire who became, eventually became Group Captain Cheshire.
DK: Just for the recording I’m just having a look at your logbook here. It says you were at Number 8 Air Gunnery School.
DS: Yes.
DK: Yeah. And then, then it was number 10 Operational Training Unit.
DS: That’s right. Which was at Abingdon.
DK: That was Abingdon.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So that’s mostly all local flying and you’re the wireless operator there.
DS: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Camera gun exercises etcetera.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then just, then it’s, I’ve then got 1658 Conversion Unit.
DS: Yes. That was after we left, oh yes. I got ahead of myself there. We went to Riccall.
DK: Right. Ok.
DS: Yeah, to convert from the Wellington to the Halifax.
DK: I’m just looking on your logbook here. You’ve got the Halifaxes here. The aircraft serial number. It says BB304 and R9434, W1003, W1168 they were quite early Halifaxes, were they?
DS: Well, they, well they must have been. Yes, because that was, they were they were flying with the Merlin engines.
DK: Right.
DS: In those days.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because later on we went on to radials. Hercules.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And —
DK: So, what did you think of the early Halifaxes at the Conversion Unit?
DS: Well, we, we liked them. Well, we thought we were going up from two engines to four engines but yes they were. Yes. We got on very well with them. Yeah.
DK: So, it would have been at the Conversion Unit then that you would have been joined by your flight engineer. Did you get an extra crew member then?
DS: Yeah. I thought we had the flight engineer from the start but —
DK: Oh, ok.
DS: I mean we had the gunners. The navigator and the bomb aimer, and as I said —
DK: Can you, can you still remember their names?
DS: Yeah, I might have to refer to it.
DK: Yeah. Ok. We can, we can go back to that later.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
DS: Well, our rear gunner was Scott. And our navigator was Keene. Bomb aimer was either Pringle or Prangle or —
DK: Yeah.
DS: And, yeah —
DK: So then in looking at your logbook again in April 1943 then you’ve gone to 76 Squadron at Linton on Ouse.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And that’s flying Halifaxes again.
DS: Yes.
DK: And can you remember were they the early Halifaxes again or the later ones?
DS: Yes. They were the early ones.
DK: The Merlin ones.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, I notice all your flying there is with Sergeant Hickman.
DS: Yes.
DK: As your pilot.
DS: Yes.
DK: And so you say the squadron commander then was Leonard Cheshire.
DS: Yes.
DK: Did, did he make much of an impression on you?
DS: Well, we as young recruits saw, we didn’t see a lot of the commander.
DK: Right.
DS: We just, we just, we had a, I think a section commander. A Flight Lieutenant Ince. But no, we didn’t get [pause] I never really got in contact much with Cheshire but —
DK: Do you remember seeing him there though?
DS: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I saw him. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So what was his squadron like? Was it a well-run squadron would you say?
DS: Yeah. Yeah. He [pause] he, in the early days because he flew the Wellington on operations and apparently he brought one back with a great big hole in the side. They said you could get an Austin 7. Yeah. No. He was [pause] no, he wasn’t a character but he had, he was, and actually in later years he turned religious.
DK: Yes.
DS: That’s another story.
DK: Yeah. So, so his, so your crew then there was no officers on the crew.
DS: No.
DK: No.
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: No. No. Late in, the navigator was made up.
DK: Right.
DS: As a pilot officer later on but all the others were just, you know sergeants. That was the minimum you were was a sergeant if you were flying. And —
DK: So, I’ve got, I’ve got on here then it looks like you joined 76 Squadron quite early in April ’43 and then would this have been your first operation then? To Pilsen.
DS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: So what, what was it like to go on an operation then for the first time? What sort of happened?
DS: It was quite an experience really and it’s something I don’t think anyone other than the ones who were on these raids could really describe what it was really like. I mean, it was just something like out of this world, you know. There was the German searchlights trying to pick you up. I mean, they had a master beam which used to pick you up, and then a series of smaller searchlights would beam, would beam on you and then, then you were, well yes that was nearly fatal because the Germans used to fire up the —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Up the beams and I mean we, fortunately we managed to manoeuvre and get, not get picked up by these master beams but we could see others that were being illuminated with the searchlights and that. Not awful but you could see people, the planes just exploding and, yeah. Yeah, that. But the thing that really amazed you was the, where the bombs and the flares and things were on the towns that we bombed. You could, it was just like a furnace burning. You know, like that. As I said it’s a sight, you can’t describe it to —
DK: No.
DS: To anyone.
DK: Right.
DS: That was, and then of course you had fighters chasing you around. Chasing you. Which were, you had to keep your eye out for and —
DK: Were, you were you ever attacked by a night fighter?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DA: Yes. But as you will see later on we shot down, well, we ourselves shot down two.
DK: Oh, right.
DS: Two Jerry fighters.
DK: So, your first operation then was the 16th of April 1943.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then 20th of April ‘43 you’ve gone to Stettin.
DS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were all —
DK: I’ll just read this out for the —
DS: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Yes. That’s correct.
DK: So, and then 27th of April, Duisburg. Duisburg again on the 12th of May. And on the 13th May, Bochum. I’ll turn that around for you. So, 30th of May, Mönchengladbach.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And then Mannheim. 15th of September.
DS: They were with different pilots they were.
DK: Right. Yeah. That’s Troak. I’ll spell that out T R O A K.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So, then Mannheim on the 5th of September. Munich on the 6th of September. So, you’ve gone on two operations. One following the other. Mannheim and then Munich. Then you’ve got another pilot here. Smith.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s the 3rd of October. Kassel. And then the 4th of October. Frankfurt.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So that’s operation number nine then. Yeah. And the tenth op 8th of October to Hanover. And then 22nd Of October, Kassel.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Interesting here. So, the 26th of November 1943 you were in Halifax K. Your pilot is Lemon.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And its ops to Stuttgart and it says, “Emergency landing. Three engines with full bomb load.” Can you —
DS: Yeah.
DK: Recall that?
DS: Yes. I can. We, we had just got airborne and one of the engines packed up. So we called base for instructions and we went, we were told to go out to sea and drop our, our, the bombs because you, it was not known for an aircraft once you’d took off with a full bomb load to have been able to come back and land.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: So, but the pilot was a regular pilot who was in the Air Force before the war.
DK: Oh right. So that was Flight Lieutenant Lemon.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And he, he called back to base, said, ‘Well, I can’t get out. I can’t go to sea. I’m coming back in.’ And we did come back in, but I think what probably he did put on, when he went in to land put a few more revs on.
DK: Yeah.
DS: To compensate. And the next thing we knew they were following up the runway behind us with all the local fire engines.
DK: So you landed with a full bomb load then.
DS: Yes. We had a full bomb load.
DK: So that was quite unusual then.
DS: Yes.
DK: [unclear]
DS: I’ve never known, well it might have happened but as far as I know that had never been known before.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But —
DK: It must have been quite, quite frightening at the time.
DS: Well, it all happened so quick you see because we’d hardly got off the end of the runway and the engine blew up.
DK: I see here the total flying time was actually five minutes isn’t it?
DS: That’s right.
DK: So you’d just done a circuit and then straight back down again.
DS: Yeah. So that was a bit hairy, I can —
DK: Yeah. So then, carrying on from there you’ve got 3rd of December. Leipzig.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And then 7th of January 1944 now. So it just says, “Bombing. Night.” It doesn’t actually say where.
DS: That’s yeah that’s an exercise.
DK: Oh, is that an exercise? Then 20th of January 1944 you’ve got your twelfth operation and it’s to Berlin.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Do you remember travelling to Berlin on that flight?
DS: It was just like another place to us, you know because we were quite keen to go there because that was the, the capital of, you know of Germany when we got there.
DK: And that was with Flying Officer Falgate.
DS: Falgate. Yeah.
DK: Falgate. Yeah. So that operation then was seven hours twenty.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Right. So [pause] and then 21st of, 21st of January 1944, Magdeburg.
DS: That’s right.
DK: And then 28th of January, Berlin again.
DS: Yes.
DK: [unclear] And then you’ve got 27th of May here [unclear] That’s in Belgium isn’t it?
DS: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve landed at Bruntingthorpe.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was there a problem with your aircraft then?
DS: Yeah. Yeah. I think we’d lost pressure somewhere in that. We had to, to, instead of getting back to base we had to make an emergency at Bruntingthorpe.
DK: Carry on then. I’d like to say you’re now in the Halifax 3s. So they’re the ones with the —
DS: With the Hercules.
DK: Hercules engines. So were they a better aircraft to the earlier Halifaxes do you think?
DS: Yeah. Oh yeah. Much better. Not only that they were safer for us because being air cooled radial there was no manifolds on the engines.
DK: Right.
DS: They’re, the Merlin’s had twin exhausts on each engine and at night time they got so hot that they illuminated.
DK: Oh right.
DS: And of course the Germans could —
DK: See them.
DS: I mean, so we were much safer once we got to the radials because the only way we were picked up by the Germans was either by the searchlights or night fighters which was bad enough.
DK: And I notice here your pilot then was Flight Lieutenant Forsyth DFC.
DS: Ah huh.
DK: So that was the 1st of June, Halifax 3 and it’s letter R and it’s off to Cherbourg. And then I see you’ve done operations actually on D-Day. 6th of June. D -Day support operations on both. Well, two operations on 6th of June, in fact, wasn’t there?
DA: Yeah.
DK: Forsyth DFC. St Lô. And you’ve put there invasion front. And then 4th of July there’s your first daylight operation.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So to St Martin. And that’s with Flight Lieutenant Forsyth again. What was it like flying in daylight on the D-Day operations?
DS: We didn’t, we didn’t get any, any opposition from the Jerries at all. That’s, well as I said that was just a hop over the Channel and back, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DS: That was when you were going in to the, in to the heart of Germany when you were going in to the Ruhr Valley and there. I mean Jerry put up about thirty thousand extra ack ack guns when the Battle of the Ruhr was on. That was like hell on earth that was. But —
DK: So, though it was in daylight because it was over France the opposition wasn’t quite as deadly.
DS: No. No.
DK: So 18th of July then ops to, I’ll spell this out it’s A C Q U E T. That’s in France I think, isn’t it?
DA: Yeah.
DK: That’s twenty one.
DA: This guy turned out, after he came out of the, out of the war he was he was my solicitor right up until he died.
DK: Ah.
DA: Yeah.
DK: So, that was flight lieutenant —
DS: Crotch.
DK: Crotch.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Flight Lieutenant Crotch.
DA: Yeah.
DK: So he was your pilot on the —
DA: On that —
DK: 18th of July. And then he became your solicitor post-war then.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. Right up until recently. Until he died.
DK: Oh. So 23rd of July. France again. Then 24th of July Stuttgart. And so this is the 24th of July 1944. The pilot’s Flying Officer Macadam.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Had gone to Stuttgart and I see here it says two enemy fighters destroyed.
DS: Yeah. That was —
DK: What happened there then?
DS: Well, what happened was that we had been previously chased by a couple of Jerry fighters but we managed to, to avoid them because what was the known thing was once a Jerry fighter turned in to attack you, you turned into him.
DK: Right.
DS: So, so anyhow we evaded the first lot and the second ones I don’t think they saw us because we were, I think where they were, they had blind spot. What we used to call a blind spot if you were flying over an aircraft as a pilot and then there’s a plane underneath. I think we must, that must have been a blind spot for it.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Oh well, that’s only what we assumed. And then, we shot down the first one. We didn’t realise that he had a mate with him. You know, flying alongside. But then he came in to, to bring us down but fortunately we managed to get him as well. And that was recorded. That wasn’t just what we said.
DK: Right.
DS: Because what happens once you come back to do a briefing you have to state what you did or saw.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And lots of other aircraft saw these two fighters being shot down so we got it recorded and that’s how that happens to be.
DK: Yeah. So someone else had witnessed it then.
DS: Yeah. Exactly.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Because everything that happens up there has to be logged if you see anything unusual.
DK: And who got them then? Was it both the gunners working together?
DS: Mainly the mid-upper.
DK: Right.
DS: Well, I think they both worked together but being as he was flying over the top he could see further.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Rather than somebody at the tail end.
DK: And can you remember the names of the gunners?
DS: No. I don’t. No.
DK: No. I thought we could check on that.
DS: No. No.
DK: So, do you know what type of aircraft they were that you shot down?
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: No.
DK: Right.
DS: I would think, I mean probably, I don’t know for sure but I think probably Junkers 88, I think.
DK: So, they were twin engined aircraft.
DS: Yeah.
DK: You shot down. Oh, right.
DS: As I say we didn’t have time to look —
DK: No.
DS: At them at the end of the day.
DK: So you’re, you’re sat at your radio at the time while all this is going on. What, what’s that like as you’re being, as you’re being attacked by a night fighter?
DS: You still had to, you were always listening out and you don’t make any communications with base.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because of detection, you know. Jerry. So, but we just, we just log what we hear. But naturally we didn’t log the fighters.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Because that was, that was on the debriefing that we had to record those things but —
DK: I’ve just noticed here as well that in July 1944 you’d moved squadrons. You’re now with 158 Squadron at Lissett.
DS: Yes.
DK: So this incident then happened while you were with 158 Squadron.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And it’s, it was Halifax R and it was Flying Officer McAdam.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: See what happened previously was when I was flying with Hickman earlier I got tonsilitis.
DK: Right.
DS: And they wouldn’t let me fly so I had to go in the sick bay. They flew off to Hanover and they never come back and that’s where, that’s where their —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Why their names are on your —
DK: Right.
DS: Memorial.
DK: If can just go back to that then. That happened when you were with 76 Squadron.
DS: Yes. Because that’s, yeah —
DK: Yeah.
DS: When I was with Hickman.
DK: Yeah. And can, can you remember when that was that that happened?
DS: It was —
DK: Are they on here?
DS: Yeah, I think that’s —
DK: Can I take a look?
DS: Yeah.
DK: OK. Oh, this is the [pause] yeah. So, they were in Halifax DK 6, DK266 MP-O.
DS: Yeah. That would be it, I expect. Yeah.
DK: And this was on the 28th of September 1943.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. During that period. Within a few weeks of that I lost my wife and child at the same time.
DK: Oh dear.
DS: So I had [pause] they talk about people having trauma these days but I mean I had to suffer the loss of my whole crew and then shortly after that, in only a matter of weeks I lost my wife and kid as well. A child.
DK: I’m very sorry to hear that.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Oh dear.
DS: So, that was, as I say that.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But you see then once you get split up from your, from a regular crew you were, you were like what we used to call an odd bod. If somebody was short of a radio operator they picked on you. And then of course by that, doing that you never had a, you never had a full crew again. You just flew when they were short of somebody.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And then of course all the accolades for when the others got medals and DFCs and DFMs and whatever. You know, such as myself we were, not that I worried about the medal but just glad to be here but you just missed out on any gallantry medals.
DK: If you don’t mind I’ll just go back a little bit because you, you when all this happened you were with 76 Squadron at Holme on Spalding Moor.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So you did an operation on [pause] where are we?
DS: There must be a period of breaks somewhere.
DK: There is. Yes. I think it’s here isn’t it because they’re saying your crew was lost on the 28th of September 1943 and that was to Hanover. So you’ve flown on an operation to Munich with Falgate and then he was lost after that then.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh dear. And that was because you had the tonsilitis.
DS: Tonsilitis, yeah. Actually, I think I was in hospital for about a couple of weeks.
DK: And just to clarify this for the recording then this was that the crew was lost on The 28th of September 1943 on a trip to Hanover. Do you know what, were they shot down then or was it —
DS: Yes. They were shot, yeah.
DK: Did you ever find out anything more about what had happened to them?
DS: Not. That they were shot down. I think it says in there where they were shot down and I wouldn’t have known that without what you’ve got there.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I just knew that they’d been shot down. I didn’t even know. I was going to contact the war cemeteries and see really where they were.
DK: Yeah.
DS: But —
DK: It’s got the Rheinberg War Cemetery.
DS: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Oh dear. So you’ve, after that terrible incident then you’ve, you have actually carried on flying haven’t you?
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Almost with different pilots.
DS: Yeah. That probably was a good thing in a way, I suppose.
DK: Can you, can you remember Falgate’s first name?
DS: Les.
DK: Les Falgate.
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right. So going forward again, you’ve then gone to 158 Squadron.
DS: That’s right. I think that was out of Lisset. I think that was.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I think. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 158 Squadron.
DS: It was Lissett. Yeah.
DK: And we’ve covered the, the incident when the night fighters were shot down. So then you’ve got three more operations here in August 1944. So these were daylight ones presumably.
DS: Yeah. They were.
DK: So, the 24th of August, Brest. 27th of August, Homburg. 31st of August somewhere in France. That’s not twenty eight operations and then September 1944, on the 9th 10th and 11th you went to Le Havre three times.
DS: Yeah. That’s correct.
DK: In daylight. The 15th of September to Kiel. And then 23rd of September 1944 to Dusseldorf.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So that was your —
DS: That.
DK: Thirty third operation.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was that, was that the total you did then?
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember much about Le Havre in daylight on those three operations.
DS: No. No. No. As I say two in one day I think they wanted.
DK: Yeah. On the 9th 10th 11th of September. In the same Halifax as well. LV940.
DS: Yeah.
DK: And the same pilot, Flight Lieutenant New.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So could you just speak a little bit about what your role was as, as the wireless operator? What you were. What you did on the operations.
DS: Well, on the operations the radio operator you had, you didn’t do [pause] you were mainly there to listen out for information from base. You never had to, you were not allowed to contact base because of the detection side of it.
DK: Yeah.
DS: You may listen though and made notes of what, anything that was going on within the plane. If the navigator says something or whatever. And mainly look out for enemy fighters. I had a window where I sat.
DK: Because in the Halifax whereabouts are you? You’re kind of sat under the pilot aren’t you? Or —
DS: Here [pause] Yeah.
DK: Right.
DS: Right there.
DK: So you were in the nose there.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Sort of below, below the pilot.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Pilot up there and then bomb aimer. Air gunner and then bomb aimer down there.
DS: Yeah.
[pause]
DK: So you did thirty three operations in total then and then it says here you were then screened.
DS: Yeah. Well, that means that then I went on to instructing.
DK: And this was at 19 OTU at Kinloss.
DS: That’s right.
DK: So you were back on the Wellingtons again.
DS: Yeah [laughs]
DK: What was that like? Going back to the Wellingtons.
DS: Not very good [laughs]
DK: So you were there for quite some time then weren’t you? Right through to 1945 on Wellingtons again [pause] So, right through to February 1945 you were training then. Oh, and carried on until March. There’s quite a few flights in Wellingtons by the looks of it.
DS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Training flights. So, you finished then March 1945.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Was that when you finished in the Air Force then or —
DS: No, I finished flying in 1945.
DK: Right.
DS: And I became redundant and we had to, we had to muster to some other part of the Air Force, and I was asked what my background was and that. I said I was, spent my few months or early years as a, working in a garage as a car maintenance and so I said I wouldn’t mind going back into transport or something like that. And then they, there was a position came up at a place called Shepherds Grove which is near Bury St Edmunds as a transport officer. So I took over the airfield as a transport officer.
DK: Yeah.
DA: And I was there. Well, the base closed. I closed the base down while I was there because that was no longer needed because the war had finished and that’s where I finished and got demobbed.
DK: So, how do you look back on your time in the Air Force now? All these years later?
DS: It was a great experience. It really was. At the time you just took things for granted and we never saw any fear. I mean if our names weren’t up to fly on a certain night we were disappointed. I mean there was no such thing as saying, ‘I’m glad I’m not going.’ We were so keen. We didn’t, we didn’t want to miss anything, and I’ve never, I’ve never ever heard of anyone saying that they were, they may have inwardly, never scared.
DK: Yeah.
DS: No. There was one of our biggest moans ever since was the accolades going along pre-war is all about Halifax, no all about Lancasters.
DK: Lancasters. Yes. Yes.
DS: The poor Halifax never gets mentioned.
DK: Yeah.
DS: If there’s a fly past.
DK: It’s always a Lancaster. It’s like the Spitfire, isn’t it?
DS: Exactly.
DK: The Hurricane gets ignored.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So you liked the Halifaxes then as an aircraft.
DS: Yeah. Well, as I say we didn’t have a lot of choice really but —
DK: Did you ever fly in a Lancaster then?
DS: No. No.
DK: No. So, you can’t really compare the two.
DS: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
DS: The only advantage that they said the Lancaster could fly about another couple of thousand feet higher than us which the higher you could get the further away you were from the enemy —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Ack ack guns, because the point was they could get you wherever you went. But of course the fighters used to chase us back. Even follow us right back to the base. There had been certain, it had been known where our own aircraft were shot down over, over on the, on coming in to land on our own bases.
DK: Yeah. And —
DS: It’s unbelievable really when you look back.
DK: Yeah. How did you feel when you got back from an operation then?
DS: We always used to look forward to coming back because of the spread. It was the only time you got a decent meal [laughs] We used to have egg and bacon and as much as you wanted.
DK: And —
DS: You had to do the debriefing once you’d landed and you went back to be debriefed and that’s like if anyone saw anything unusual. That’s when the question of the fighters came in you see.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And anything that happens you had to make a note of. I mean I remember coming back [pause] that was when the first Doodlebugs went to London.
DK: Oh right.
DS: We saw this object illuminated. We knew it wasn’t an aircraft because we didn’t know what it was.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And all things like that we had to make a note of and then, then the radio operator on various operations we had to drop what they called Windows.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Which is a —
DK: It reflects the radar.
DS: A series of like tin foil to, to obliterate the German detection.
DK: Was that one of your roles?
DS: Yes.
DK: As wireless operator.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what did you do? Did you feed it down a tube?
DS: There was a chute.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DS: And we were told every, whatever —
DK: Yeah.
DS: Seconds or minutes, I can’t remember exactly you had to drop and that because everybody did the same thing because I mean lots of the raids we went on I mean they were four and five hundred bomber raids. I mean and usually however many there were, there was in the raid, we were, we bombed out like, half of you would be bombing at a certain time.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And then three minutes later the second wave.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DS: Of course we relied on the Pathfinders to drop the flares because it’s the Pathfinders that gave us the exact target.
DK: Yeah.
DS: I mean today things are different now I mean with radar and —
DK: It’s all computerised.
DS: Computerised, you could pick out a needle.
DK: Not quite the same is it?
DS: No. But yeah.
DK: So, when you were with your crew then did you socialise together?
DS: Yes.
DK: What did you used to do on your time off then?
DS: Well, mainly we used to go to the local bar. Not on the base.
DK: No.
DS: We used to, we were stationed in Yorkshire and —
DK: Can you remember the names of the pubs?
DS: Yeah. We used to go to Betty’s Bar.
DK: Betty’s Bar.
DS: In York.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I know it.
DS: And as I know the place, I think today they’ve got some inscriptions even in Betty’s Bar today.
DK: Is your name there?
DS: I don’t think my name is there [laughs]
DK: Probably not [laughs] You’ll have to go there and put it in.
DS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yes we used to go and have a few beers. And then anyone who got newly commissioned they used to take his hat.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And pour a pint of beer in it to christen it or something like that. Yes.
DK: So, it must have been a great loss then when your crew went missing.
DS: Oh yeah. Yes. I mean we used to spend so much time together.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DS: And —
DK: So after that you were just crewed up with wherever you were necessary. You didn’t join another —
DS: No.
DK: Another crew as such.
DS: I flew with Falgate for a while and actually I’ve come, been in contact with some distant relatives of Falgate. It’s, you know since the war and one of the young girl of this family got a lot of information from the 76 Squadron Association and —
DK: So, the crew. I’ve, I’ve just slightly misunderstood something. The crew that went missing was Hickman’s.
DS: Hickman.
DK: Hickman. And what was his first name? Hickman’s first name. Would it be in here? I’ve slightly got confused with the names of the pilots.
DS: Yes.
DK: Sorry about that.
DS: Yes, well that was I flew with several pilots.
DK: Yeah. So, it was Hickman who went missing on the 28th of September 1943 in Halifax DK266 MP-O.
DS: Is his, is his name up there?
DK: That’s George Scott. Was he one of the other crews?
DS: He was a rear gunner.
DK: Rear gunner. Ok. So it was, sorry I slightly misunderstood that. It was Hickman that went missing.
DS: Yes.
DK: To Hanover you say.
DS: That’s right.
DK: On the 28th of September 1943.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: So, it was after that you were flying with Falgate. Les Falgate.
DS: Yes.
DK: Etcetera. Yeah. Slightly confused there. So, have you got the names of your crew somewhere or were they, did you say they were written down somewhere? That’s only got the one crew. G Scott.
DS: They should all be there shouldn’t they?
DK: I can, I can check after. That’s ok.
DS: I thought they were all on there.
DK: Yeah. Just the one there.
[pause]
DA: Yeah.
[pause – pages turning]
DK: Because your last operation with Hickman was, or the last time you flew with him was 16th of May 1943. So it must have been soon after that you got the —
DS: Yeah.
DK: Tonsilitis. Yeah. And then as I say he went missing in the September.
DS: Yeah. That must be it. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, thanks for that. I’m just going to pause this for a moment and have a look at your photos there.
[recording paused]
DK: Just put this on again. So you’ve got a photo of your Halifax in the background there and your crew. Can you name the crew there?
DS: That was, that was Falgate.
DK: Falgate. He’s in the middle. Yeah.
DS: I can’t. I don’t know. I can’t remember them. The crew.
DK: Right. Are you there?
DS: Yeah. There.
DK: Ah you’re on the end. Ok. So you’re on the right and Falgate is in the centre.
DS: That’s correct.
DK: At the back. Yeah.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, you’ve got another photo here. That’s, that’s your ground crew as well presumably.
DS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s Falgate there again, is it? He’s in the middle isn’t he?
DS: Yeah. Yes. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
DS: And I think that’s me there.
DK: And that’s you there.
DS: Yeah.
DK: Third from, third from the right. So, this is one of the earlier Halifaxes with the Merlin engines.
DS: Yeah. I think it is.
DK: Yeah.
DS: Yeah. Oh, yes. It is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Douglas Arthur Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-02-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASmithDA190219, PSmithDA1901
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:55:43 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas Smith grew up in Bressingham, Norfolk. He joined the Royal Air Force in October 1940, at the age of nineteen, and trained as a wireless operator. He joined a crew on Wellingtons at No 10 Operational Training Unit, RAF Abingdon, before converting to Halifaxes at 1658 Conversion Unit, RAF Riccall. In April 1943, the crew joined 76 Squadron, based at RAF Linton on Ouse. He describes their first operation to Germany, the danger of searchlights, and visiting Betty’s Bar in York during their downtime. He recounts a trauma that occurred on the 28th of September 1943, when his crew, piloted by Sergeant Hickman, was shot down on an operation to Hannover, while Smith was grounded due to tonsillitis. He continued operations by filling in for crews lacking a wireless operator, including two trips in support of D-Day, and one emergency landing back at base with a full bomb load. In July 1944, Smith moved to 158 Squadron, RAF Lisset, and completed operations to Le Havre, Dusseldorf, and Kiel. He describes his role as the wireless operator, releasing Window through a chute, and an operation to Stuttgart where the crew shot down two night fighters. After completing thirty-three operations, he instructed at 19 Operational Training Unit, RAF Kinloss, before working as a transport officer at RAF Shepherds Grove until demobilisation.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--York
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
France
France--Le Havre
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10
1943-04-16
1943-09-28
1944-07
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
158 Squadron
1658 HCU
19 OTU
76 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lissett
RAF Riccall
RAF Shepherds Grove
searchlight
shot down
training
Wellington
Window
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2257/40604/PEdwardsF2-2201.1.jpg
725fb23cfcf3869419f2d279f4c4d56c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2257/40604/AEdwardsF2-220811.1.mp3
dc20b7b226f6d219e3f962d3c59d659c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edwards, Frank
F Edwards
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Edwards (b. 1937). Originally from London, he was evacuated to the Lincolnshire/Leicestershire border. Has written a book about his experience.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-11
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edwards, F-2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just introduce you. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Frank Edwards at his home on the, what’s the date today [laughs] hang on. The 11th of August 2022. So if I just put that down there.
FE: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking at it I’m just making sure it’s still working okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So put that there. So if you just talk naturally.
FE: Yes. Talk naturally to you. That’s alright.
DK: If I ask you first of all. Whereabouts were you born?
FE: I was born in London on the 28th of the 10th ’37. I was born at St, not Stephen. Wait a minute. I’ve put it down. I never can[pause] St Leonards Hospital, Shoreditch.
DK: So it’s Shoreditch. So you’re a Shoreditch man then.
FE: A Shoreditch man. I was born within the sound of Bow Bells so they call me a proper Cockney.
DK: A proper. A proper Cockney. A proper Cockney. Well, I’m originally from West London so —
FE: Oh, was you?
DK: So people refer to me as being a Cockney but I can’t claim that.
FE: No. No. No.
DK: Originally from Hounslow.
FE: Oh yes. Hounslow.
DK: That area.
FE: That’s more on the outside.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all West London and near to Heathrow Airport.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So what was, what was it like then? Shoreditch in those days.
FE: Well, I was only four years old so I can’t remember a lot but what I can remember is the Doodlebugs coming over and the sound and the silence and then the explosion and my mother used to grab all of us boys because there were four of us and a sister and used to run us down to the Underground.
DK: The London Underground.
FE: The London Underground.
DK: The London Underground. Yeah.
FE: And we used to stop in there overnight if the raids were still going on.
DK: Can you remember which Underground station you went to?
FE: No. No. I can’t.
DK: So you stayed on the platform there.
FE: No, we went to the Underground.
DK: Oh.
FE: And laid all on the platform. There were all the sheets and blankets and everything there. Us boys thought it was good fun because we was running up and down.
DK: Yeah.
FE: With all the other children. Thought it was good fun and, yeah —
DK: So that would have been 1944 then.
FE: That would have been. Yeah. It would.
DK: So you would have been, well seven at the time.
FE: Wait a minute. ’37. No, I was just over four year old.
DK: Oh, right. Okay. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Just over four. And one time we heard the Doodlebugs coming and my mother grabbed us and we was running down to the Underground and there was the explosion and we sort of turned around and we could see the end of our house caving in. So it didn’t actually hit it. But it was —
DK: Yeah. From the blast.
FE: Very very close and —
DK: Do you actually remember seeing the Doodlebugs in the sky?
FE: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
FE: No. I can’t remember seeing them. We used to hear the noise of them coming and then there was a big silence before the actual explosion.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. As they dropped.
FE: As they dropped. And —
DK: So, what, was there much damage to your house then?
FE: Well, not a lot. No. It was just more or less one end of the sitting room had gone out.
DK: So —
FE: And we carried on living in it because I can remember the boards.
DK: Right. I was just going to have a look. Yeah.
FE: That they had put these boards up at the end.
DK: Can you remember what sort of house it was? Was it a terraced house or a semi? Or detached?
FE: I think it was a terraced house.
DK: A terraced house. Right.
FE: Yeah. And my youngest brother he was born under the kitchen table in an air raid.
DK: Wow.
FE: And how I know that because my mother told me that that’s where he was born.
DK: Can you remember what year that would have been he was, he was born?
FE: He’s two years younger than me. Yeah. Yeah. Two years younger. That’s right. So that would have been what ’34, ’37. That would have been ’40. wouldn’t it?
DK: 1940.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So that would have been during the Battle of Britain as it were and the Blitz.
FE: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: The Blitz. Yeah.
FE: She was, he was born under the kitchen table and a neighbour came and grabbed all of us because there was an air raid going on and she took us down to the shelter and somebody came around to look after mother while she was giving birth.
DK: Wow. So I don’t suppose you really remember the start of the war then. You just really remember towards the end.
FE: That’s right.
DK: The second part. So were you actually evacuated at one point?
FE: Yes. When I was practically five all I knew was we were suddenly going somewhere with my mother. I didn’t know where it was or anything about it. But anyway, we all got loaded up on the train at Kings Cross and big excitement I suppose for us boys.
DK: So, so —
FE: We’d never been out of London.
DK: Yeah. No.
FE: In our lives. In fact, we’d never been out of the street I don’t think and as I say we got loaded up on the train and my mother came with us.
DK: So was your, your brother as well was he?
FE: Yeah.
DK: So it was just you and your brother and your mother.
FE: Two. Two brothers.
DK: Two brothers.
FE: Yeah. Two brothers and —
DK: So altogether three.
FE: Yeah. Three.
DK: You and two brothers plus your mother.
FE: And my sister.
DK: Oh, and a sister.
FE: Yeah. No. My sister went to Somerset.
DK: Oh okay, okay.
FE: Yeah. Now why she went to Somerset I never found out.
DK: No. So where did your mother and the sons go to then?
FE: We all came down here to Grantham Station.
DK: Oh. Right.
FE: We got off at Grantham Station. There was a coach waiting for us. Brought us all down to Croxton Kerrial where the water spout is.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: On this side of the road and anyway we had to line up outside the vicarage. All in a line. I’d got a label as everybody else with your name on it and I had a little suitcase with a gas mask.
DK: Yeah.
FE: I had a gas mask.
DK: That was a child’s gas mask was it?
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And anyway, we all stood outside the vicarage and people from neighbouring villages came and said, ‘I can take one.’ ‘I can take two.’ And anyway, with us three boys and my mother we was the last ones —
DK: Yeah.
FE: To get picked. And there was a kind lady, Mrs Shipman, she said, ‘Well, I’ll take the three boys until we can find somewhere else for one or two of them.’ And so my mother came with us to get us settled in but after a couple of months probably she got so she wanted to get back to London. She was a proper Londoner.
DK: Yeah.
FE: She didn’t like it in the countryside.
DK: No. No.
FE: Couldn’t settle.
DK: Do you know, can you recall what your mother was employed doing? Was she, did she have a job at the time?
FE: No.
DK: Right.
FE: No.
DK: So she was just a housewife.
FE: She’d got four children so, so —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: I presume she never —
DK: And can you recall what your father would have been doing?
FE: He was a firewatcher.
DK: Okay. So he remained in London.
FE: He remained in London.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And my mother said that she wanted to get back to him you know. His eyes wasn’t very good so that was the job he was doing. Fire.
DK: Right.
FE: Fire watching. And anyway, we went to this very kind lady. She was a farmer’s wife but her husband had died and we really settled in well except my mother as I say.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Which she went back to London.
DK: Can you recall the lady’s name that you stayed with?
FE: Mrs Shipman.
DK: Mrs Shipman. Sorry.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So was she living on a farm or —
FE: She was on the farm.
DK: Right.
FE: A lovely farmhouse.
DK: Can you remember whereabout the farmhouse was?
FE: It was in between Branston and Knipton.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think one of the boys Shipman still lives in the farmhouse.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: And we settled in quite well us boys. We thought it was great running all around.
DK: Looking back it must have been a bit of a cultural shock coming from London.
FE: Going to —
DK: And a terraced house to all this open countryside.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Does that really stand in your mind then?
FE: It does.
DK: Open and —
FE: I can remember when the door was open because of course we wasn’t very old. We used to run. Run out and go all around the stackyard and everywhere and they used to come looking for us to get us back into the house and yeah it was great. Really really enjoyed it and anyway after a time Mrs Shipman found that she couldn’t deal with three. Three of us.
DK: Would you know how old she would have been roughly?
FE: She was getting on. Wait a minute. Let me think.
DK: In her fifties or sixties or perhaps a little bit older.
FE: I should say she was.
DK: I know it’s difficult looking back.
FE: Probably sixty.
DK: Sixty. Yeah.
FE: She seemed very old.
DK: I was just going to say.
FE: Yeah. But they would do to boys.
DK: Must have seemed ancient to you.
FE: That’s right.
DK: At the time.
FE: Yeah. But she was definitely getting on a bit.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And what stands out in my mind really was the lovely meals that she cooked and she used to lay the table with all the silver and all the rest of it because they were a little bit on the posh side. And yeah that sort of stands out in my mind when the table, called us in for dinner or whatever and seeing the table all laid out which at home I suppose we just sat around an old table.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And that was it.
DK: So how long were you evacuated for? How long did you spend at the farm?
FE: Well, she found she couldn’t deal with the three boys so at the end of the lane from the farmhouse was the farm worker’s cottages. There was two. And one of the farmworker‘s wives said she’d take one.
DK: Right.
FE: The cleaning lady from Croxton Kerrial she said she’d take me.
DK: Right.
FE: So we were split up.
DK: Split up. Yeah.
FE: My younger brother he stopped with Mrs Shipman.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. That was the one that was born under the table.
DK: Right.
FE: And —
DK: Just for the record recall your brother’s names? Your younger brother was —
FE: My younger brother was John.
DK: John. Yeah.
FE: My eldest brother was Terry.
DK: Terry. And your sister who’s gone to Somerset.
FE: Lily.
DK: Lily. And your parent’s names?
FE: Alfred and Lilian.
DK: Lilian. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. And —
DK: So you’re now being looked after separately.
FE: That’s right.
DK: In the —
FE: And as I say I went to Croxton and soon settled in. Very very good people. Treated me like a son. Just like a son and I started calling them mum and dad because well more or less forgetting about my parents.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: And as I say they looked after us very well and there was no problem. No problem at all. Mr Woods died and of course she had to look after me on her own. Her son and daughter they was in the forces.
DK: Right.
FE: So they was away.
DK: Yeah.
FE: From home.
DK: Do you know what they were doing in the Forces? Can you recall that?
FE: I think [pause] I think she was in the ATS.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent about that. I don’t know where he was or what he was in but when he came home after the war he was that thin and always said he wasn’t treated very well. That’s all I can remember what —
DK: So he may have been a prisoner of war then.
FE: Could have been.
DK: Yeah.
FE: A prisoner of war. I don’t know.
DK: You don’t know. No.
FE: But yeah, I can always remember looking at him and he was that thin.
[telephone ringing]
DK: I’ll stop there.
[recording paused]
FE: That was my daughter. And where had I got to?
DK: The son came back after the war.
FE: War.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Very thin.
FE: As I say I grew up in the village and went to the village school and got on well at the village school.
DK: Was it, was it, I’m imagining, I’m assuming it was quite a small school then.
FE: Oh yes. It was. Probably thirty pupils in the school.
DK: Right.
FE: There was a big room and a small room as we called it. Two teachers and we lived next door to the policeman and the schoolteacher lived next door to the policeman. So she was one side.
DK: Yeah.
FE: We was the other. And yeah, had a great time living there. Started to get into the countryside ways with a lot of farmers. Spent a lot of time on the farm. And blacksmith. There was a blacksmith, a village shop. There was everything in the village. A bakers, a butchers.
DK: So though although there was rationing at the time you don’t really remember —
FE: I don’t.
DK: Needing to struggle produce wise. Yeah.
FE: I don’t think that we struggled quite obviously because —
DK: It was all locally produced stuff.
FE: We had a big garden.
DK: Right.
FE: We grew a hell of a lot of vegetables.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And we kept a pig in the pigsty at the top of the garden. When you had your pig killed you shared.
DK: Yeah.
FE: With your neighbours.
DK: Yeah.
FE: When they killed —
DK: Shared.
FE: They shared with you.
DK: Oh okay.
FE: So really I don’t think we really struggled. No. I think we was alright for food and Mrs Wood was a very good cook and bottles in the pantry. There was all these bottles all on the shelves full of all the whatever. Blackberries, plums and all the rest of it. Yeah. She was very good. And anyway, I grew up in the village. Had a great time. Got on with all the children. There wasn’t football. We never had a football in those days.
DK: I was going to say you had sort of toys and things to play with. What, what were you —
FE: Well, we didn’t really because there wasn’t a lot.
DK: No.
FE: We used to have a hoop and a stick. Used to run around the road with this hoop and stick. Conkers when it was conker time.
DK: Yeah.
FE: No. We really didn’t have a lot to play with. We had a tennis ball. I can remember having a tennis ball throwing about. But as for a football. No. Whether there was a football in those days I don’t know.
DK: Did you spend a lot of your time during the day then out in the fields and —
FE: Out in the fields.
DK: Running around. Yeah.
FE: I started to get in with the keepers a little bit. There was a keeper in the village and I used to go across to him and he was going on his rounds so I spent a lot of time with him and the farm seemed to be very small in those days.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Just a matter of you know fifty acres that was.
DK: Yeah. They were then weren’t they? Not like the big —
FE: That was the farm.
DK: Farms you get now.
FE: And just up the road there was a farmer. I used to spend a hell of a lot of time with him. He used to let me drive the horse and the cart.
DK: Right.
FE: And of course that was a big thing for a boy out of London to drive a horse [laughs] a horse and cart. And yeah, I spent a hell of a lot of time in the hay field and that sort of thing. And anyway by the time I got to the age of ten my mother wrote a letter and said all the boys had got to go back to London. They could get a council house as long as they had the boys back.
DK: Right. Right. What year would this have been then?
FE: I can’t. Ten years old. ’37. 1940. ’46. ’47. Is that right?
DK: ’47 yeah. So this was after the war then.
FE: This was.
DK: So you were an evacuee then from the period after the Doodlebugs.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So the Doodlebugs ’44.
FE: Yeah.
DK: You’re then evacuated and you were there until 1947.
FE: Seven.
DK: So two years after the war in fact.
FE: Yeah. ’37, ‘38, ‘39, ‘40, ‘45, ‘46, ‘47. Yeah. So I’d be ten year old in ’47 wouldn’t I be?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: That’s when I had to go back to London.
DK: Right.
FE: And of course I said I’m not going back and —
DK: I’m not surprised.
FE: And all the rest. I was a country boy.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: A proper country boy. Grew up running in the fields catching rabbits. They bought me a dog and I used to use that a lot rabbiting and I used to catch these rabbits. And coaches used to stop at the Peacock Inn in the village, that was a public house and I used to make sure I was down there as they was unloading the coaches. Used to say, ‘Anybody want a rabbit?’ ‘Oh, I’ll have one.’ I’ll have two.’ And just used to go with my running dog across the road, into some fields, catch these rabbits and wait there until they came and they’d give you sixpence, a shilling or whatever.
DK: Wow.
FE: And hand over to you.
DK: You don’t do that sort of thing in London do you?
FE: No. Crikey. No. No.
DK: Just, just going back to the period of, of the war while you were up in this area. Can you recall anything of the war? The aircraft or anything going on. The troop movements.
FE: I can remember a plane crashing.
DK: Right.
FE: Along the Saltby Road. In fact, the fence is still there where it went through.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: There was a hedge.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And then I think it landed one side, came across the road into the next field. That’s where the first fence is. I can’t remember seeing the plane.
DK: Right.
FE: No.
DK: You saw the damage afterwards.
FE: Saw the damage. That’s right. And it wasn’t far from the village in fact.
DK: And that’s out at Saltby.
FE: Yeah. On the Saltby Road.
DK: The Saltby Road.
FE: Yeah. And —
DK: Was it, was it a large aircraft? Do you know? Or —
FE: I don’t know —
DK: No.
FE: Anything about it. No. It was just that people said a plane had crashed.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And the only other thing really I can remember was the Yanks.
DK: Right. Okay.
FE: When the Yanks came.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Because they used to run after the vehicles and shout, ‘Any gum chum?’ [laughs] and they’d throw you candy or —
DK: Yeah.
FE: You know, chewing gum.
DK: Do you recall them being quite flamboyant then?
FE: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s right.
DK: Did you, did you get to speak to any of the American soldiers at all?
FE: Yes. I did because they used to stop and say, ‘What are you doing?’ And all that sort of thing and yeah it was their accent that sort of baffled us a little bit being boys. But yeah, that was quite interesting with the Yanks —
DK: So they were —
FE: Because they had these open jeeps.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So you saw them in the jeeps and they’d sometimes stop and chat to you.
FE: In the jeeps. That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yes. But anyway, we had to go back to London and I cried and cried and half the village turned out to say goodbye because I got on with everybody in the village.
DK: Yeah.
FE: They used to make cakes for me and God knows. Give me sweets and —
DK: Did you and your two brothers all go back at the same time?
FE: Yes.
DK: Right.
FE: Except one. One brother went back. The other one stayed on the farm.
DK: Oh, okay.
FE: And he never did go back.
DK: Oh right. And he was your older brother.
FE: He was the youngest one.
DK: Ah. Right.
FE: That was born under the table.
DK: Right. Right. So he never went back to your mother then.
FE: So we went back.
DK: Yeah.
FE: To Chingford in Essex.
DK: Just the two of you.
FE: Just the two of us.
DK: You and one brother. Right.
FE: And my sister from Somerset.
DK: Yeah.
FE: She also joined us. But I hated it. Couldn’t settle at all because we were used to country life and —
DK: Presumably you went back to school in Chingford did you?
FE: Went back to school in Chingford. In fact, I’ve still got two or three of my old school books. Yes. Went to the school in Chingford.
DK: And was this a bigger school than—
FE: A massive great school.
DK: Yeah, and you —
FE: Massive great school.
DK: You didn’t settle in I assume.
FE: Didn’t settle at all. My accent was country as you can tell and I used to get bullied. Started getting bullied.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: Anyway, one of the teachers one day he said, ‘What’s the matter?’ Or something. And I said, ‘Oh, I’m getting bullied,’ and all the rest of it and anyway he told me to go to the gym and start boxing.
DK: Right.
FE: So that’s where I used to go three times a week and started boxing and I wouldn’t say I was good but I got quite good and one day I decided. Right. This bully. I’m going to have him today. And he came along the corridor and as he went by you know, like that. And I called his name and he turned around and I got stuck in to him and really gave him a good hiding. His mate stopped me in the end and the teachers got to know and they said, ‘You did a good job there.’ [laughs] I was chuffed to bits.
DK: I’m not sure teachers would do it that, sort that out that way.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Today. Would they, no.
FE: But —
DK: Suggesting or say boxing lessons and [laughs] whack the bully.
FE: That’s right. Boxing lessons.
DK: But sorted the problem out then did it?
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Sorted it out and I never boxed again.
DK: Right.
FE: That was the last time —
DK: Okay.
FE: I ever did. And we couldn’t settle. We used to go my brother and myself we used to go out, for long walks. Epping Forest. We used to go to Epping Forest and spent hours in Epping Forest just walking through the wood and all the rest of it. And one day we came to this public house and outside was a massive great tank. And it said on the wall above it, ‘Pull the chain and see the otter.’ So of course we’d see the otter. Pulled the chain so we pulled this chain out very very gently and there was a kettle at the end of the chain [laughs] Isn’t it funny how things stand out.
DK: How bizarre.
FE: In your mind isn’t it?
DK: Do you think then that your walks into Epping Forest you were trying to recreate living in the countryside?
FE: I think we was, you know and it was to get away from our parents as well. We could not get on with our parents.
DK: No.
FE: No. They was completely different to Mr and Mrs Woods. I couldn’t get on with them. My brother, he started to get on with them a little bit and my sister did. But no. I couldn’t get on with them at all. And —
DK: Did you think you were perhaps a little resentful then that you had to go back to the, I suppose your parents are strangers now aren’t they?
FE: That’s right. They’re complete strangers. In fact, I didn’t even recognise my mother.
DK: Really.
FE: No. No. I didn’t know her at all.
DK: That’s sad.
FE: And anyway we had to stand it. We went to the, to school and when I got to, we used to come down here for holidays back to Croxton and really enjoyed it. Never wanted to go back but had to go back and —
DK: How did you get up here in those days? Did you come by train or —
FE: Came by train.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah. And I used to get pocket money while I was down here to pay to get back and also pay for me to come back next time. Summer holidays. And when I got to fifteen I decided to run away —
DK: Right.
FE: And to come back down here. And I told me brother and my sister and anyway I packed a few things in a case and when my parents were wherever out the door I went and away I went. I knew the way roughly because I’d done it a few times. Got to King’s Cross. Got on the train. I thought it stopped at Grantham. It went straight through Grantham to Doncaster.
DK: Oh.
FE: So of course it was panic stations.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And I got off at Doncaster. Didn’t know what to do. Saw a policeman and I went to the policeman and said, ‘I want to get back to Grantham.’ And of course they started enquiring, ‘What are you doing?’ I told them that I’d run away from home. I wanted to get to Coxton Kerrial on the way to Melton Mowbray and anyway after a while they loaded us up in the police car. Took me back to Grantham to get on a bus. Put me on a bus to Croxton Kerrial.
DK: So the police didn’t think about sending you back to London then.
FE: No.
DK: No.
FE: No. They was going to get, well in fact they did get in touch with a police station in London —
DK: Yeah.
FE: And said, ‘We’ve got your son here.’ What they said I can’t imagine but anyway, I ended up at Croxton and walked through the door because in those days you didn’t knock at the door you just walked in. Everybody’s house you just walked in. Walked in and they were sitting around the old black lead grate. I can see them sitting there now. A big fire. A kettle on and anyway they looked and said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I said, ‘I’ve come to stay. Can I?’ And they said, ‘Of course you can but what about your mum and dad?’ I said, ‘They don’t know where I am but the policeman’s rung them and I think he’s told them.’ And anyway, they got in touch with my parents or the police or whoever and my parents knew that I couldn’t settle with them so they said, ‘Alright. He can stay with you.’ So that was the start of it. I soon settled back into country life again.
DK: So you never went back to London to live then.
FE: Never went back to London. Never saw my parents again.
DK: Really?
FE: No. I just did not like them.
DK: Oh wow.
FE: And I made sure that I didn’t see them again.
DK: Right.
FE: My father died crossing the road in London. He worked as a cabinet maker.
DK: Right.
FE: And he was crossing the road in London got knocked down and killed and nobody came forward and said, ‘I saw what happened.’ And all those people yet nobody came forward. And yes, my mother I think, I think she, I’m not a hundred percent sure but I think she did die of cancer.
DK: Right.
FE: And no, as I say I never saw them again. So it came to time to think about work and of course, with being on the farms as much as I did as a boy I thought, ‘Right. Farm work.’ You know, that’ll be the thing for me.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Although I did spend a lot of time with keepers. And anyway I started on the farm. I had to be there at 7 o’clock in the morning ‘til 5. Six and a half days a week.
DK: Can you recall where that farm was?
FE: That farm was the Shipman’s farm where I was—
DK: Oh right.
FE: First evacuated to.
DK: Right. Right. So you’d gone back to the farm you —
FE: Gone back to the farm.
DK: Where you were evacuated to —
FE: Evacuated.
DK: Right.
FE: As a start —
DK: Yeah.
FE: That’s where I —
DK: Yeah. So you knew the people working there and you knew everybody.
FE: Oh, knew everybody.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: That’s right. And yeah, loved it really because it was still the old binders and horses and the odd thrashing drum with the tractor or whatever attached to it. Still all the old machinery. But of course, as time went on things was changing and the horses began to disappear and the tractors was taking over which I didn’t like. I liked the horses. And [pause] alright?
DK: Yeah. Okay.
FE: And yeah, I got on very well there and I decided to join a handbell team which was in Croxton Kerrial. Mr Farnsworth used to run it. He was a farmer. And joined this team, got on well with the handbells and we was playing at the vicarage and in the distance I could see two girls and I thought she looks alright as you do.
DK: As you do. Yeah.
FE: Yeah. So after we’d finished I went down and said, ‘Would you like to go for a walk?’ And that’s my wife.
DK: Ah.
FE: There.
DK: Well —
FE: And she —
DK: A very attractive lady.
FE: She says, ‘I will as long as long as I can bring my friend.’
DK: Yeah.
FE: I thought bugger. That’s done it. [laughs] And anyway, we did. We went for a walk and that was the start of the romance but I wanted to go into the Army.
DK: Right.
FE: So I, we’d been courting for probably a year or so and I told her I was going to go in the Army and I thought well that will be the end of it. She’ll [pause] but anyway she decided. She said, ‘Alright, I’ll wait for you.’
DK: Okay.
FE: And I went in for four years and —
DK: Was that —
FE: In the Coldstream Guards.
DK: Oh Right. Okay.
FE: Yeah. Coldstream Guards. And spent most of my time in in London. Did a lot of the Guards. Did the lining of the Mall and all those sorts of things which the Guards did.
DK: So —
FE: And Trooping the Colour and —
DK: So would this have been the 1950s or the 1960s we’re looking at when you were involved?
FE: I went in in ’56.
DK: ’56. Right. Okay.
FE: In the Army.
DK: So late 1950s then.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Yeah, and got on very well. No problems at all. Never got made up which I hoped I would but never did but doing a lot of the Guards, Tower of London and Bank of England. We used to do the Bank of England. The Tower of London. Oh, I can’t remember the names of them now.
DK: So how many Trooping the Colours did you do then?
FE: Two.
DK: Two.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. We used to be outside the Palace on guard. In those days you was outside. You used to have your sentry box. Two of you. And outside the railings and you had the signal when you was going to march you up and down to the other one at the other end. Tapped your rifle.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Two, two taps and then you’d both start to march up and down. And then when you was going to go back to your sentry box you you were swinging your arms and did two. That was the signal.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You used to get a lot of dates. The girls would come up and, ‘Meet me at —’ so and so and you’d put them up your sleeve.
DK: Oh right.
FE: So when you got back to barracks you shared them out with your, with your mates [laughs] and yeah sometimes you know I was being faithful. Yeah, some nice girls. No doubt about it but there was quite a few rough ones. And —
DK: So you got married then after you came out the Army.
FE: After I came out the Army I got married more or less straightaway and soon a daughter was on the way. And —
DK: Did you go back into farming then after that? Or —
FE: I was going to I thought I’d end up back on the farm where I originally worked but he’d set somebody else on in the meantime because he didn’t know how long I was going to be.
DK: Yeah.
FE: In the Forces or whatever and he said, ‘I’m ever so sorry. I can’t give you a job.’ But anyway, word got around that I was looking for work and a farmer in the same village I lived he came and offered me a job. And which I accepted and there was a house with it.
DK: Which village was this then?
FE: Croxton Kerrial.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah, so anyway I accepted the job, a decent little house along the Saltby Road and enjoyed it on that farm. It was very good. I took a lot of responsibility because he was getting old and did a lot of the, a lot of the work no doubt about it. But I was getting in with the keepers a lot. Helping keepers. I was very interested in keepering and anyway one day I was hedge cutting and this car stopped on a Tuesday morning and he was watching and then he drove off. But the next Tuesday he was there again and so I got out and I went across the road to him and I said, ‘Do I happen to know you?’ And he said, ‘No.’ But he says, ‘I know all about you.’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And he said, ‘You spend time with the keepers.’ He said, ‘Are you interested in a keeper’s job?’ So of course, I wanted to know all the details and he said it meant setting up a shoot at Londonthorpe.
DK: Okay.
FE: That was Belton Estate.
DK: Oh right. On the Belton Estate. Okay.
FE: The Belton Estate. And it was a syndicate that wanted to set up this shoot and offered me the job.
DK: Was that before the Belton Estate became National Trust then?
FE: Yes.
DK: Right.
FE: Before then. Yeah. And anyway, I accepted the job. I had a hell of a job to get there. When we moved it were, oh my God snow. I don’t know how deep it was but it took a long while before it went. But eventually we moved in.
DK: This wasn’t the very bad winter of about 1962.
FE: No. I don’t think it was.
DK: The next one.
FE: No.
DK: So this would have been the 1960s then would it?
FE: It would have been the ‘60s.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And settled in. It was a big farmhouse. Cold. Very very cold in the winter. Beautiful in the summer. Set up this shoot which was a big thing because I’d never.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You know I’d just been with the keepers and then just suddenly —
DK: You were in charge of it all.
FE: I was responsible —
DK: Yeah.
FE: For a shoot.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And we was rearing with broody hens in those days. Used to put the eggs twenty, twenty two eggs under one hen and used to have a row of sitting boxes with all these broody hens in and got on very well. And then of course it got more modernised and we, I started having Rupert Brooders. You could put a hundred chicks under one of these.
DK: So what type of people that came out on the shoots then? Were they from the estate or were they from outside or —
FE: No. They was from, from all over. Some, some were farmers. Some were businessmen.
DK: Right.
FE: You know. Those sort of people.
DK: So you had to organise their visit and the shoots.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
FE: My wife used to do their lunches on a shoot day.
DK: Right.
FE: We used to have ten, ten day shooting. She used to do the lunches but the only trouble with, with them they stayed too late at night drinking. Oh God. They was in my house because they had a room in my house.
DK: Right.
FE: 10 o’clock at night they’d still be there.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: And —
DK: They liked their drink did they?
FE: They liked their drink.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: Of course, in those days the police wasn’t about.
DK: Yeah.
FE: Or bothered or anything. And they used to get in a fair old state some of them. I can remember one day one of them was driving out and he went up on my grass and took the clothesline with him as he went out [laughs] Out the gate.
DK: Oh dear.
FE: And then they used to go down to Londonthorpe village and have another session there with somebody. So God knows what they was like when they got home if some of them got home.
DK: Yeah.
FE: If some of them got home.
DK: So were they were they sort of regulars then that you tended to see that came on these shoots?
FE: Yes, it was mostly rich people.
DK: Yeah. I was going to say.
FE: Rich people.
DK: And you tended to see the same ones again.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Each time.
FE: They could invite guests.
DK: Right.
FE: Yes. They could. Which several of them did. If they couldn’t get it for business or whatever.
DK: Yeah.
FE: They’d let somebody else —
DK: Else go.
FE: Go in their place. But there was one funny thing happened because there were still poachers in those days and of course pheasants was worth five pounds a brace where now you can’t give them away.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And that was a lot of money.
DK: Right.
FE: In those days. And anyway, I had a phone call saying there was poachers up in such and such a wood. Belmont Wood. And we all helped each other, the keepers. So got we got radios, got in touch with the keepers because I knew they’d be out on their rounds and we all met and went up to this wood where the poachers was and we decided we’d walk straight down the side of the wood. There was a sort of a ride and we walked down this ride. We could see these two chaps and we got within a hundred yards of them and this Alsatian came up and smelled one of us and the other one turned and run. I thought that was strange. Alsatians. Still never clicked. But anyway, we decided we was going to surround them and jump out on them with the sticks and what have you and we jumped out and shouted, ‘Stand still.’ Which they did and it was two policemen dog training. Of course, we all started laughing like mad when we found out it was two policemen and one of them said, ‘Please don’t tell anybody at the police station will you.’ [laughs] And yeah that was very funny that was. We had a good night that night after. But —
DK: Was poaching in those days a real problem then?
FE: It was for about two years and then it began to ease off because I was only a matter of what two miles from Grantham.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And the poachers came from Grantham.
DK: Right.
FE: They could walk you see or bicycle and hide the bicycle —
DK: Yeah.
FE: Under the hedge somewhere. We knew who the poachers was. We knew their names and where they lived and everything.
DK: Yeah.
FE: But it was one of those things. You had to stop out at night and hope that you caught them or they didn’t come because they found out that you was out. One night I did get poached. And I was feeding in the wood and I thought that the pheasants seemed a bit, a bit wild, a bit spooky and I started having a look around and found some feathers. And then walked a little bit more and found some more feathers and I knew that they had been. It must have been the night that I wasn’t out or something. And anyway, in those days we had alarm guns. And in fact, I had mine made and made for me. And you put a cartridge in and you had a trip wire that went across and when you tripped the wire it set it off and bang! In the middle of the night that would be a hell of a noise.
DK: Right.
FE: And anyway, I set this up on the place where I thought well if they come this is where they’re going to walk. Not walk through the thick briars. It was just a little track and I went the next morning and had a look and I could see that it had gone off and I had a look around and couldn’t find any falls at all. And then I saw a cap laying up.
DK: Right.
FE: It must have gone off.
DK: And he’d —
FE: Frightened them that much.
DK: Lost his cap and run.
FE: Set off running or something.
DK: Yeah.
FE: And left his cap behind [laughs] you know.
DK: So, so were you still working at Belton House then at this time?
FE: At Belton.
DK: Belton Estate or something.
FE: Yeah. It was nothing to do with Belton Estate. It was their land.
DK: Right.
FE: But they rented it. The shoot actually rented the land.
DK: I see.
FE: For the shoot.
DK: Right.
FE: Yeah. But it was still Belton Estate.
DK: So how long were you there for then?
FE: Well, suddenly one day one of the syndicate came to me and said, ‘I’m ever so sorry. I’ve got some bad news.’ I thought, ‘Oh, what’s that?’ He said, ‘Belton Estate is going to the National Trust and they don’t allow shooting.’
DK: Ah, so —
FE: So I was —
DK: So you actually lost your job because the National Trust had taken over.
FE: I was out of a job.
DK: Oh.
FE: Because of the National Trust.
DK: Oh right.
FE: And anyway —
DK: I bet, I bet you weren’t too pleased about that at the time.
FE: I wasn’t. No.
DK: No.
FE: But there you are. One of those things. I thought well I’ve got to start looking for another keeper’s job somewhere but we had another shoot day and one of the syndicates said to me, ‘Don’t worry about losing your job. I think I’ve got another one for you lined up.’ So he said meet me —’ so and so and we’ll go to where this which was at Burton Coggles.
DK: Right.
FE: Just down the road.
DK: Right.
FE: And Sir Monty Cholmeley. So we met Sir Monty and I said, ‘Well, I’d like to look around.’
DK: That’s Sir Monty Cholmeley.
FE: Yeah. Sir Monty Cholmeley.
DK: Right. He was the local landowner presumably.
FE: Yes. Well, he owned the estate.
DK: Yeah. Right.
FE: A small estate.
DK: Right.
FE: Easton Estate and anyway we met Sir Monty. He took us for a ride all the way around and showed me the woods and what not and told me that they had twelve shoot days a year and all what I wanted to know about the shoot and I took the job. Accepted the job.
DK: Right.
FE: He was a very very good boss. No problem at all. You meet him when you was on your rounds. He would always come and talk and offer you a drop of whisky out his bottle and yeah got on really well with him. Had some good shoot days. Things seemed to go well.
DK: So are we in to the 1970s now then? About that time? Just so —
FE: It would be. It would be about the ‘70s wouldn’t it because I was at Belton ten years.
DK: Right.
FE: So that had, let’s think [pause] Went in to ’56 in the Army. It would be ‘60 when I came out. Ten years. That makes it ’70. It would be.
DK: 1970.
FE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got on very well. Had some good shoots. Decided to set another keeper on to work with me. Got on very well with Barry. He was a good keeper. Got on very well with him and we made a nice, a nice shoot and anyway decided to retire at the age of sixty, sixty seven.
DK: Okay.
FE: Decided to retire and the boss was having a meeting. He said he wanted me at the meeting and I went and he said, ‘Right. You are retiring. This is what’s happening to you. I’m giving you a house rate and rent free for the rest of your life.’
DK: Wow.
FE: And that’s this one.
DK: And it’s this one. Right.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Wow.
FE: And so I’ve been here [pause] oh God. About eighteen years I think.
DK: Eighteen. Eighteen years.
FE: Eighteen, something but yeah. Crikey where has that time gone? I can’t believe that.
DK: Well, we’ve come full circle around to your retirement home so I’ll stop the recording now.
FE: Yes.
DK: Because I think I’ve got everything I need. It’s got your story about your evacuation and what you did after the war.
FE: Yeah.
DK: So thanks very much for that. That’s been most enjoyable and most interesting but I’m going to switch this off now.
FE: Yeah.
[recording paused]
FE: Mind really I just did it for friends.
DK: So this was the book that you wrote.
FE: Yeah. And sold. Oh, I don’t know what it was. Fifty in the first week.
DK: So was it a privately published book then, was it?
FE: Yeah.
DK: Right.
FE: And anyway, all the books went and somebody said, ‘Oh have you got a book left?’ And I said, ‘Well, you can borrow mine.’ I can’t remember who it was. Never got it back. So I’m the only one without a book.
DK: Without a copy of it.
FE: Without a copy of the book.
DK: Can you remember what it was called?
FE: “London Evacuee to Countryman.” You can still get it.
DK: London Evacuee —
FE: “Evacuee to Countryman.”
DK: Country man. Okay. What, I’ll see if I can get hold of a copy.
FE: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You’ll be able to get a copy.
DK: If I get two I’ll —
FE: I’ve also been.
DK: Send one on to you.
FE: I’ve also been in two magazines.
DK: Right. [pause] So that’s the “Sporting Shooter.” [paper rustling]
FE: Yes. And I’ve also been in the “Lincolnshire Life.”
DK: In, “Lincolnshire Life.”
FE: I think it was, “Lincolnshire Life.”
DK: Yeah. So they did an article about you there then.
FE: That’s what I got it off when I came out of hospital.
DK: Very good.
FE: Good isn’t it? That’s it.
DK: Oh right. So this is where are we? So this is, oh it’s quite recent then. August 2022.
FE: That’s right.
DK: Oh, so I’ll just make a note of this. August 2022 of the, “Sporting Shooter.” What are we? Page thirty four. Page thirty five. Okay.
FE: I’ve also got the other one in the cupboard behind you.
DK: Oh right. So this, this covers your story of the Doodlebugs.
FE: Yeah.
DK: And going out to [pause] on page thirty six. I’ll have a look at that. Oh right. So do, do you still shoot at all or —
FE: I packed it up probably ten years ago.
DK: Right.
FE: I found that I couldn’t swing the same.
DK: Right.
FE: The old joints with arthritis.
DK: Not quite as good.
FE: I thought well now’s the time to —
DE: To give it up.
FE: Give it up. So —
DK: Just put this back on again. Its rather odd that in some ways because you became an evacuee and came out here it totally changed your life and the direction you would have been taking.
FE: Completely.
DK: So in some ways, well in almost all respects it was actually a good thing that you became an evacuee. Saw a different life outside London.
FE: That’s right.
DK: And then had a life and a career from that.
FE: That’s right. What if I’d stayed in London what would have happened? I could have been killed. Just don’t know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
FE: What would have happened.
DK: Well, your career would have been totally different wouldn’t it?
FE: Totally different. I would have probably been with my father cabinet making or whatever.
DK: Yeah.
FE: You don’t know do you?
DK: No.
FE: What could have happened.
DK: Okay then. I’m going to stop this again now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Edwards
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-08-11
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:56:16 Audio Recording
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEdwardsF2-220811, PEdwardsF2-2201
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Melton Mowbray
Description
An account of the resource
Frank was born in London. He describes V-1 coming over and taking shelter in the London underground.
Frank talks of his evacuation to the countryside near Croxton Kerrial when he was nearly five. He was accompanied by his two brothers and initially his mother. His sister was sent to Somerset. He enjoyed his time in the countryside and shares memories about the people who looked after him, his school, mealtimes and leisure time pursuits.
Frank reluctantly returned to Chingford in Essex two years after the end of the war. He missed the countryside and was bullied at school. At the aged of 15, he ran away to Croxton Kerrial, to which his parents subsequently agreed. He never saw his parents again.
He started work on a farm and met his wife. After four years in the Coldstream Guards, he married and worked on another farm in Croxton. Frank then moved to Londonthorpe to set up the shoot. The shoot rented the land from the Belton Estate. When the estate was bought by the National Trust, no shooting was permitted. He was taken on as keeper by Sir Montague Cholmeley. After retirement, the latter let him live rent free.
Frank has written a book, “London Evacuee to Countryman” and appeared in Sporting Shooter and Lincolnshire Life magazines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1064/46017/PParkeRG2303.2.jpg
adbb73f2c923457c0fbe5913fb632557
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1064/46017/AParkeRG230330.2.mp3
1a995556537bd9a75addbb03c8306350
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parke, Ray
Ray G Parke
R G Parke
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Ray Parke (b. 1925, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 218 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parke, RG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DW: If you want to grab a cup of tea soon.
RP: Yeah.
DW: They’re really quite good here so —
DK: Ok.
DW: If I just leave that will be for that reason.
DK: Ok. So, if I just introduce myself it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Ray Parke on the, where are we? The 30th of March 2023 and with me is Samantha [Podmore].
SP: That’s right.
DK: And Dale Wiseman. So, I’ll put that there. If you just, just speak normally. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure that the recording device is working.
RP: Hmm.
DK: Now the first thing I wanted to ask you. I understand in the last few weeks you went to Duxford.
RP: Yes.
DK: How, how was that?
RP: I was just telling Samantha today it was a wonderful trip. I had been to Duxford many many years ago but that was a marvellous day.
DK: And I see here on the photo here you went aboard the Lancaster there.
RP: That’s right. Not many people are allowed to do that.
DK: Did they, did they make a bit of a fuss of you at the museum?
RP: Not half, didn’t they? Yes. They did. Yeah.
DK: So, so what, was that your first time back on a Lancaster then?
RP: I’ve been to the one at East Kirkby.
DK: Right.
RP: Obviously a bit longer ago. Yeah. Yeah. But that was the earliest. Yeah.
DK: And, and what was it like going on board?
RP: I found it difficult to recognise. I couldn’t work out behind the main spar there was a great dip down.
DK: Right.
RP: Where the bomb bay is. I’m not sure that was on the same on my plane.
DK: So you couldn’t remember the dip there.
RP: No.
DK: They did let you go up the front then did they?
RP: No. No. No.
DK: No.
RP: No.
DK: Because it’s a bit, a bit difficult getting over the main spar.
RP: That’s right. Yes. Well it always was during the war [laughs] to get up.
DK: So did it kind of bring back sort of memories for you then?
RP: Oh yes. Of course, that and the East Kirkby were the times I’ve been back on a Lancaster. Yes.
DK: And, and, and hopefully they were, they were very good to you there then?
RP: Yes. First class treatment. Yes.
DK: Because when I saw you a few years ago I didn’t really know about Miles Tripp and it’s only recently I read the book and I was wondering had you, had you read his previous book?
RP: Yes. Yes.
DK: “Facing the Windsock.”
RP: Yes. And that, that preceded –
DK: Yeah.
RP: “The Eighth Passenger.”
DK: And what did you think of, of his book?
RP: Yeah.
DK: His first one.
RP: It’s a long time since I read it. I enjoyed it. Yes.
DK: Because people aren’t mentioned in it are they? You’re –
RP: No. No.
DK: Probably in it.
RP: No.
DK: Did you –
RP: No. That was a bit more fictional that one.
DK: Right. Did you recognise yourself then in any of it then at all?
RP: Well, I can’t remember now. No.
DK: Because I hadn’t realised Miles Tripp, he went on to become a crime writer.
RP: Yes, indeed. He was the chairman of the Crime Writer’s Association.
DK: Oh. Ok. Because how, how did you, how did you get on with Miles on your –?
RP: That was a love hate relationship. I was a country boy and he was a public schoolboy [laughs]
DK: And was it, was he good as a bomb aimer though was he? Or —?
RP: Oh yes. He was well trained. Yes. Yeah.
DK: Because reading –
RP: He started off, he’d trained to be a pilot of course at first in Canada but then he had to change and then of course the observers got more or less redundant didn’t they and they had to become bomb aimers.
DK: And that, that’s how. What about yourself? How did you become the flight engineer then?
RP: When I joined the Air Force I, my first interview was at St Athans and they said, ‘What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘Well, I want to be in the aircrew.’ So I said I would be a, ‘I’ll be a gunner.’ They said, ‘You can’t. You’re too fat.’ So –
DK: Charming.
RP: I said, ‘Well, I’ll do signals then.’ ‘Oh no. That’s too complicated for me.’ You see. ‘Well, there’s flight engineer.’ I said, ‘Yes. Alright.’ Fine to that. So he said, ‘What do you know about engines?’ No. I was eighteen year old. I’d never had a motorbike or anything like that. And he said, ‘Well, describe a cotter pin.’ So I described one on a bicycle and he said, ‘Alright. You’re in.’ [laughs]
DK: Because I find it quite remarkable that you’d completed forty operations before you were twenty.
RP: Yes.
DK: So that, that was in a very short space of time.
RP: Yes.
DK: So the period you had with your crew on operations and training was actually quite —
RP: Very intense it was.
DK: Intense.
RP: We lived in each other’s pockets all the time. We were together. All the time together except when the pilot became a commissioned officer and then devolved to the Officer’s Mess but apart from that all the time.
DK: Because reading, “The Eighth Passenger,” Miles seemed to go to great lengths to get in touch with you all after the war.
RP: That’s right. Yes.
DK: How did you feel when he got in touch with you all some years later?
RP: Completely surprised. I mean we all swore when we left at the end of the war we, that we would keep in touch and see each other but we never did. And then of course he finally turned up and did that.
DK: Yeah. Did, did he write to you then? Because there was a newspaper campaign wasn’t there or —
RP: No. His story was that one of our crew, George Bell, the wireless operator was a police inspector at Henley.
DK: Ah.
RP: And somehow or other Mike must have met him and he said, ‘Well, I live in Norwich. I’ll see if I can find a man called Ray Parke.’ And later on the local evening news said, ‘Where is Ray Parke?’ And of course, that started it up and they traced me and he came back and then we had an interview in the garden and wrote the book together.
DK: So he came to see you at your, your home then.
RP: Yes. Yes. And that I was confusing that with [unclear]
DK: Oh.
RP: It was much earlier than that.
DK: That, that was a few years later.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
DK: So what, what was it like seeing Miles after all those years?
RP: Well, by that time of course we were best of friends.
DK: Oh. I was going to say —
RP: And he’s a very clever chap and he is a barrister. Yes.
DK: Did you get that he, he writes in his book that he met the crew individually. Did you all ever meet up again as a whole crew?
RP: Yes. Yes. We all met up in Bury St Edmunds and we were interviewed by German TV.
DK: Oh right.
RP: And that was the last time I saw the whole crew together.
DK: Can you remember roughly what year that would have been?
RP: No. I can’t. No.
DW: I have —
RP: I’ve no idea.
DW: Ray, has got a photograph of that.
RP: Have I?
DW: Which we, I can get sent to you.
RP: Have I got a photograph of that?
DW: You have. Yeah. Yeah, because you all look a bit older.
[laughter]
DW: Yeah.
RP: Ah yes. You’re, you’re probably thinking of another one in Thetford.
DW: Oh, there was another. So there was another. Oh sorry. I thought it was just one occasion.
RP: Well, that was a weekend when I remember it was Harry McCalla and Les Walker and myself but I think that was just a few —
DW: Oh, I thought. Well, alright. I’ll check my library.
RP: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re, you’re, can you remember the name of your pilot —
RP: Do I?
DK: The pilot. The name of your pilot?
RP: George Klenner.
DK: And, and did he come over from Australia to meet you all?
RP: He did indeed. Yes. And he showed us his Distinguished Flying Cross.
DK: Oh right. So what, what was it like meeting them all again in later years?
RP: That was very good. I was still at work actually and I had sort of to leave work early to get down to Bury, Bury St Edmunds to meet them up and they, by the time I’d arrived they were all sitting around a dinner table.
DK: They’d started without you had they?
RP: That’s right.
DK: But your, your, so your relationship with Miles got a lot better then after that would you say?
RP: That’s right. It was all sort of cat and dog.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Initially.
DK: Yeah.
RP: But —
DK: What, one of the interesting things I find is your rear gunner Harry was from Jamaica.
RP: Jamaica.
DK: I’ve, I’ve actually been working on a project for the museum at East Kirkby of aircrew who served in the Caribbean or came from the Caribbean or West Indies.
RP: That’s right, I’ve read one or two cases about that in the paper. Yes.
DK: Yeah. How did you get on with, with Harry because he must have been —
RP: Harry was a fine gentleman. He was the oldest member of the crew and he really was a very nice chap.
DK: Did you find it difficult at all? The fact he was come from the Caribbean and was living in or serving in England I should say.
RP: I never. No one said anything about that.
DK: No. But he, I see in the book that he remained in London.
RP: That’s right.
DK: He didn’t, he didn’t actually go back.
RP: And he worked at the Battersea Power Station. Engineer I think. And married a Swiss girl.
DK: Oh right.
RP: I went up to see him a couple of times. We wrote. We corresponded together.
DK: There’s, in the book there’s claims that he was a bit of a clairvoyant. He knew what your target was going to be.
RP: Yes. Yes. And that rather upset him I’m afraid. It was quite uncanny. You know, we would say jokily, ‘Where do you think we’re going today?’ And he would say something which was not very far off you know. And then afterward people used to say, ‘Well, how did he know that?’ Of course, the poor chap didn’t really know.
DW: So there was no truth in it then.
RP: No.
DW: No truth in the idea that he knew.
RP: Well, that did happen. Yes.
DW: Yeah, there was –
RP: Yeah. And he would call us a lot of rotters or something.
DK: So just going back a little bit we were talking last time all those years ago about your operations. You’d done thirty and it’s a bit strange that you ended up doing forty. How did, how did that actually come about?
RP: Yes. It was just in Christmas 1944, the Battle of the Bulge and the order came around that if by a certain date in December you had completed less than twenty five trips you would be obliged to carry on and do another five trips to thirty five. So we said well bugger that [laughs] and we put in for some leave and got some leave [laughs] and but then we come back and had to do it. And we went on and then as we were approaching thirty five, around about thirty three, ‘Sorry chaps, the situation hasn’t changed. We’re still short of pilots. Still short of aircraft. Forty trips.’ [pause] And very quickly after that we completed the extra five in a very few days and we did the forty trips and the day or so after we arrived back they said, ‘The order is rescinded and they’ve gone back to thirty.’ There was a story about that.
DW: Wrong place. Wrong time.
SP: Yeah.
RP: Did you ever read that article called, “Beware of the Vicar,”?
DK: No. No.
RP: Our commanding officer. Well, we didn’t like him very much and he wasn’t very popular and everybody called him the vicar. And I only learned just a month or six weeks ago this story. I’d never heard it before but it seemed that he and his flight commander, a man named John Bishop, a squadron leader fell out because he thought the CO was treating his younger aircrew too hard. You see we were flying between thirty five and forty trips in about a week. You know, quite close together and —
SP: Thirty to forty [unclear]
RP: I didn’t know but suddenly that –
DW: Yeah, that is quick [unclear]
SP: Wow.
RP: Well, I’m saying perhaps a fortnight. Yeah. And I didn’t know that and I didn’t know but I’ve now found out that that squadron leader was posted away with his crew and they did go on to complete their thirty five trips as it was to them with another squadron. But the CO never recognised him in any way as a distinguished pilot. Many many flights. And neither he nor his crew got a [unclear]
DK: Ah.
RP: No. And then it occurred to me by reading that story well that must have been going on at the time I was there. You know. As I say seventy years later I found that out.
DK: Wow. Because your, your pilot got the DFC didn’t he?
RP: Yes.
DK: And George Bell the DFM.
RP: Yes. And Les Walker got the DFM. Yeah.
DK: But nothing for your good self?
RP: Hmmn?
DK: No, no, nothing for your good self.
RP: No. No. Or our two gunners or –
DW: What did you get a few years ago, Ray? Your grandson sorted out.
RP: Oh, I got the French Legion of Honour.
DK: Oh right. Oh wow.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: That’s the top. Top French award. That’s recognition from the French isn’t it?
RP: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RP: That’s my photograph.
DK: Wow. Well, that’s, that’s nice to be acknowledged by our —
RP: Yeah.
DK: By our allies, isn’t it.
DW: So he now has that pinned with the others don’t you?
DK: Yeah.
RP: That’s right.
DW: You’ve got your roll now haven’t you. You’ve got your roll now haven’t you?
RP: Yeah.
DW: Well done.
DK: You would say just a little bit about your, your fortieth trip because I think it was a bit special wasn’t it?
RP: Yes. It was special and not [pause] the CO in the previous week came up to the pilot and said, ‘Look. You’re coming up to your fortieth trip. I’ll try and pick out a nice easy one for you.’ And so we thought oh good. That would be a good idea. But when we got on the occasion of the briefing for that trip we went in and we saw the big red line going right across Europe into Essen. Now, that was one of the worst. That was one of the heaviest defended places in Germany apart from Berlin and we’d had lots of trouble there in, on the flights and so we thought rather a dirty trick and he said, ‘Well, I’m sorry. They changed the target at the last minute and you had to go.’ But in the event we got there and got to bombing and he said, ‘Now when you come back,’ he said, ‘I want you to be on your best behaviour because I’ve got lots of people who want to meet you.’ And he said, ‘I want a good return.’ We used to hate flying in formation but, I’m sorry [pause] coming back I looked at the back of the aircraft and there was the whole squadron in tight formation following [little old me] [unclear] I had to finish looking at that.
DK: That was, that was quite, quite, must have been quite spectacular for you then. A bit of, a bit of acknowledgement.
RP: So the pilot said well [unclear] this pilot and instead of we got the message pancake. Instead of pancake he went around again because we were on a different aircraft that day and our flight crew was standing on the dispersal for our normal aircraft and that crew used to see us off every day. Coming, every day we came back. So he deliberately flew over that crew. [unclear] And then we landed and there was all the big wigs. MPs with medals and ribbons and all sorts of things.
DK: That must, that must have been quite a moment for you.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok.
DW: That’s when you had the photograph taken in the book isn’t it?
RP: That’s right. Yeah.
DW: Yeah. Of the crew.
RP: Yeah.
DW: That was taken at that point I understand.
RP: That was taken to the News Chronicle. Yeah.
DW: It was literally spot on to —
DK: Well, that one there.
DW: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. Another one. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: You haven’t changed much [laughs]
[pause]
DK: Just going back to Miles’ book again he says, says your pilot was, was quite good at doing a lot of low flying.
RP: Yes. We managed to stop a bus and get the people to run off. We upset a football match. We knocked two old ladies off a bike and so we all, ‘Come on, Dig. You have to stop this. You can’t keep go on like that.’ But he still did that one on the last trip. Yeah.
DK: Was he, was he a good pilot then? Was he?
RP: He was a good, and the funny thing was if ever we’d had a bad trip or something a bit rough particularly Harry, the rear gunner he would say, ‘Dig, that was your best landing. Soft as a feather.’ [laughs] Yeah. There’s always a first [laughs] yeah.
DK: Ok. I’m going to just turn of that for a moment so you can just have a bit of a rest. Just get your thoughts together.
[recording paused]
RP: I was just thinking now how old I would have been but I can’t just work it out for a minute.
DK: Let’s see —
SP: How old are you now, Ray?
RP: Well, I shall be ninety eight next week or next week after.
SP: Ninety?
RP: Ninety eight.
DK: Ninety eight.
SP: Ninety eight next week.
RP: No, a week after. Early in April.
SP: You are in April aren’t you?
RP: Hmmn?
SP: April.
RP: Yeah.
SP: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
DK: So it was four, five, seven years ago then wasn’t it? Five. Six. Seven. So you’d have been ninety one.
RP: Ninety one. Yeah.
DK: When you, a mere youngster.
RP: Retired dear [laughs]
DK: So talking about after the war what, what was your career after the war then? What did you end up doing?
RP: Learning. Learning a trade. I became a lawyer and that took up most of my time and I did the same job for forty odd years.
DK: Can you remember the name of the company?
RP: Norwich Union.
DK: Oh, right. Oh ok. So your, your whole life has been around Norwich then.
RP: Yes. Yes.
DK: Has it?
RP: Yeah. One of the trips I did with Dale we went to see some cadets in Norwich and one of my office colleagues was there.
DK: Was he?
DW: He was. Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
RP: [I’ve written that down here]
DW: His name was Ray as well, wasn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
DW: Yeah.
RP: Ray Fisher. Yeah.
DW: Yeah.
DK: Presumably you hadn’t seen him for a while then.
RP: No. No.
DK: Oh.
RP: Well, we just didn’t know what. ‘Is that him?’ And he was looking at me, ‘Is that him?’ You know. And it was.
DW: And you went to that ATC as well, didn’t you?
RP: Yes.
DW: Years ago.
RP: Yes, I did. I went and joined an ATC. Yeah.
DW: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve been getting out and about then. You’ve been to Duxford ATC.
RP: Yes.
DK: Did you, did you do a Remembrance Service?
RP: Yes. Oh yes. They always treated me like a prince.
DK: Good.
RP: I was in a wheelchair and in front of the, leading all the procession.
DW: And you went to Thorpe St Andrew church where you used to go didn’t you?
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Where I was in the choir.
DW: He used to be in the choir at Thorpe St Andrew church so because Ray used to live on the same road as the church but —
DK: Yeah.
DW: But probably a good sort of good fifteen minute walk didn’t you?
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
DW: From the church. So you see he was our guest for the day and you’ll be the guest again this year, Ray. So it will be [unclear] We head towards November the 12th this year. Right. Even, even the vicar made a fuss of you.
RP: Yes [laughs] and I understand that was unusual [laughs]
DK: Talking of the low flying I think its how he mentions your return to St Eval. Do you remember that?
RP: Yes. I do indeed.
DK: What, what actually happened then? Can you tell a little bit about that?
RP: We’d been to Saarbrücken and we lost an engine but somehow or other we carried on and bombed and came away after the target. But because we’d lost an engine we’d been losing height and everybody was leaving us behind so we were more or less on our own and halfway through France an American Mustang came and settled down right inside and escorted us back to the coast. But by this time we’d had a message. East Anglia is closed. Every plane, it was quite a large raid was diverted to elsewhere and we were diverted to a place called St Eval.
DK: Is it, it’s in Devon isn’t it?
RP: Cornwall.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RP: Just on the peninsula down there.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Not far from St Ives. But there was a strong wind blowing and we were drifting almost back out in to the Atlantic. But we just pressed on and everybody was all standing up in the cockpit peering out, you know. Can we see land? And eventually we could see these cliffs coming up and well we did just manage to scrape over but forty aircraft were trying to get in at the same time.
DK: Wow.
RP: So you can imagine what that was like. It took us four times to go around. Every time we were ordered to pancake somebody would come in underneath and get in first so we’d go around again. That meant I had to halt the engines and all this. Everything. And four times that happened and the last time he said ‘Well, I’m coming in. Anything’s going to happen you can do what you like.’ So they said, ‘Pancake.’ And we did pancake and we landed there.
DK: So a bit of a, a bit of relief when you got down then.
RP: Oh yeah. That was. That was a big relief yeah. It was one of those things when you land everything goes quiet. The engine switches off and you sit there [breathing] you know. Like that. And then you come around and it’s all finished now. But I will always remember that.
DK: It must have been a real relief when you got back.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, I’ll just stop there Ray so you can have a —
[recording paused]
SP: And how did you get back from St Eval and Dishforth?
RP: Well, you spent a few days down there and somebody came. We had to leave the plane behind.
SP: Right.
RP: So it was two or three days later somebody came and picked us up and brought us back.
SP: Ok. So you got to see a bit of the UK as well. Not just Norfolk.
RP: Not really. You know you’re sort of on the airport and you can’t go out. You can’t do anything.
SP: Ok.
DK: And did you and your crew socialise much? Did you go to pubs and —
RP: Oh yes. Yes. We, we got on well with the manager of the Woolpack at a village close to Bury St Edmunds. So much so that he used to save the beer for us to the chagrin of his real customers [laughs] and they didn’t like it because they were giving us their beer.
DK: I think, I think you deserved the beer.
RP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
RP: We were novices and the first trip turned out to be to Duisburg in Germany and they said this is going to be a thousand bomber raid. So of course we had to jump in and we took off and then we had to call around to pick up other aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
RP: For this thousand raid and collect them and then go on to France. And so we got halfway across France and, and somebody got up and looked in the astrodome and they said, ‘You know,’ he said, ‘I thought there was supposed to be a thousand bombers about here.’ And we couldn’t see a thing. And there we were. Eighteen year old lost in Germany in the darkest, in the middle of the war. But we managed to get around and finished it and came back.
DK: Was that a bit of a —
[pause]
DK: I don’t like to use the word but was that a bit of an error by the navigator? I mean he obviously —
RP: Yes. Yes.
DK: Knew and —
RP: That and what he, I think he complained about being given the wrong winds.
DK: Right.
RP: Yeah. But he was [lower] Actually, he was the second navigator. The first one had to be changed and this Les turned out to be an excellent chap in the end. But on his first trip obviously he managed to get lost.
DK: Well, if he’d been given the wrong winds it’s not actually his fault.
RP: That’s right.
DK: Is it?
RP: No.
DK: It’s —
RP: No. No.
DK: He was just acting in good faith.
RP: So there was me. Eighteen years old. Never been further than London and there I was lost in the middle of Germany.
DK: I guess, I guess you sort of grow up quickly then don’t you? It’s —
RP: Yes.
DK: I could imagine eighteen year olds now doing what you did.
RP: Well, of course I was the baby of the crew. Seventeen and a half and it was all a bit of an adventure really.
SP: You mentioned the Woolpack just now. The pub. I think I might have found it, Ray.
DK: Oh, is it still there?
SP: It might still be there.
RP: What’s the name of the village?
DK: Is it in Chedburgh.
SP: No. It’s, the name of the village is Fornham St Martin.
RP: Pardon?
SP: Fornham St Martin.
RP: No.
SP: Not that one. Oh.
DW: Are you full time then for the Bomber Command? Or what’s, what’s the set up?
DK: Oh I only doing these when, when they when ask me to.
SP: It’s the one you brought up. The Woolpack near Bury St Edmunds. Is that —
DW: So are you like actually, are you employed then or or —
[recording paused]
DK: So, what, what’s it like seeing your name in print?
RP: Well, ever since the book of course, yeah.
DK: So you, you’re used to this then. Fame. Fame in a book.
RP: Well, I do due to these people.
DK: So, your friend David Dowe then.
RP: Yes.
DK: Can you say a little bit about him.
RP: Yes. We went to school together and he was about a couple of months older than me and you know just the usual pals. School pals. And then suddenly off he went to the Air Force and I learned later that he went to train as a flight engineer and was flying the Lancasters and so I started to follow and just followed him on. Yeah.
DW: There was a very special Remembrance last year that you could, you could honour him for the first time wasn’t it, Ray?
RP: That’s right. And I mean —
DW: You were able to —
RP: Met some of his family.
DK: Oh right.
DW: Yeah. Yeah, we had one or two events. We had a book launch.
DK: Yeah.
DW: And you met Ray, David’s niece, didn’t you?
RP: Yeah.
DK: So he, he was lost on operations was he?
RP: Yes. He was with an Australian crew I think. They all survived except one person. I think one survived didn’t he?
DW: One person survived.
RP: Yeah.
DW: And the Germans picked him up and he was a prisoner of war.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
DW: Yeah.
RP: So it was sort of through him that you didn’t fancy the Army or the Navy then.
RP: No. Well, we were the Brylcreem boys you see and that was the thing to do for a seventeen year old.
DK: Did the, did the girls like the uniform?
RP: Oh, not half. Talking about that when I was stationed at Methwold the girls used to come up for the dances in the Mess and we got pally with some of them in our crew and they each bought us a silk scarf. And I had that for years and years. Flew with that all over the place. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RP: I’ve forgotten the girl’s name.
DK: Have you still got the scarf though?
RP: Not now.
DK: No. You haven’t.
RP: My wife didn’t know what, knew what that was probably [laughs] She liked it.
DW: Tell, tell them about the flight when you went over Thorpe St Andrew and you came over quite low in a Lancaster.
RP: Yeah. We, I think we were [pause] at this pre-squadron and we were just doing a cross country or something and we’d been up to Leeds because George, someone in his family had just got married and so we flew down, down this back passage [laughs] passage and of course they didn’t know what it was and so we carried on and came back to Norwich and I swear I could see my mother’s linen lying in the garden.
SP: He was that low you could see your mother’s washing.
RP: Yeah.
SP: On the line.
RP: I bet that woke a few people up.
SP: I bet it did.
RP: But it couldn’t, couldn’t have been that low really I suppose but —
DW: Because Ray your mum and dad used to run a fish stall, didn’t they?
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
DW: Where they used to work.
DK: You didn’t, you didn’t fancy going into the family business then.
RP: I, I said to my dad, ‘Shall I come in?’ ‘No. No. No,’ he said. He wouldn’t like that. So I went off separately.
DW: Your brother worked in it didn’t he?
RP: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
DW: Your brother worked in the —
RP: Had his own shops and things. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well, I don’t want to tire you out too much.
RP: That’s alright.
DK: But can I just ask obviously a few years have gone on since I last saw you but how do you now look back on those years? How do you think about that?
RP: Well, I was there. I’d done it. I really don’t think too much about it. I just realise how lucky I am that I’m still here sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
RP: And I’ve done nothing more than many hundreds of thousands of people did exactly the same thing.
DK: Oh, there was one other thing I was wanting to ask you. You, you were at one point flying Stirlings weren’t you?
RP: Yes. Yeah.
DK: What, what did you think of the Stirlings?
RP: A big, more like tanks [laughs] and we managed to write one off at West Wratting.
DK: What happened there? Was it —
RP: We’d been on a cross country flight and I got lost as usual. Anyway, on the way back Dig, the pilot said, ‘I’ve got a date to see a WAAF tonight.’ So he hurried up and tried to shortcut this. There was a shortcut and the answer is that he misjudged the land, the runway and he overshot in the end and of course there was a ditch at the end of the runway and of course the Stirling’s wheels stopped in a ditch [laughs] while the Stirling went on.
DK: Was there, was there much damage?
RP: Written off.
DK: Oh right.
SP: [laughs] Yes.
RP: It was a court martial in affect. We got away with it.
DK: Must have been, must have been quite, quite terrifying as you were trying to get out of the thing was it? Or —
RP: I suppose so. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You moved pretty quickly did you?
RP: Not half.
DK: And Wellingtons as well. I think you were on Wellingtons as well.
RP: I flew in Wellingtons. Yes. Just for a short while because there was only two engines so there was nothing much for me to do.
DK: As a flight engineer then was it a bit complicated with the Stirling you had to do?
RP: Yes. They were different engines for a start and different, well different petrol, different everything. Petrol tank system was completely different and you weren’t even, you didn’t used to sit next to the pilot on a Stirling. You had your own little cubicle.
DK: Oh right. That must have been a bit awkward then. A bit difficult if you’re not near the pilot.
RP: Well, he was just around the corner. I was not far away.
DK: So the positioning for the flight engineer was better on the Lancaster then.
RP: Oh yes. You had got a whole seat sitting alongside each other. The pilot would be there and my hand would be on the accelerator going up there like that.
DK: Ok then. I’ll, I’ll stop you there because —
[recording paused]
RP: That’s, and used to run them on the aircraft field.
SP: Three motorbikes on an aircraft field.
RP: Yeah.
SP: Between the seven of you to get out and about.
RP: Yeah. And poor old Mike Tripp used to live in the Angel Hotel at Bury St Edmunds with his girlfriend and if ever we were put on that alert somebody would have to get in touch with him, ‘Mike. Mike get back quickly.’ And he tried to get back one day and he slipped on the ice with his motorbike and that crashed and that was no good. But somehow or other he got back just in time. Two or three days later there was a policeman coming up the drive. ‘Is your name Miles Tripp? I’ve got your motorbike.’ [laughs] Yeah.
SP: So then you went down to two bikes did you? Is that?
RP: Yeah.
DK: So, RAF Chedburgh itself what, what was the airfield like?
RP: Well, there’s a picture up there.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Yeah.
DK: Was it, was it a bit not much there or —
RP: Not much there. No.
DK: So where were you billeted then? Was it in a Nissen hut or something?
RP: Around about in a, in a Nissen hut. Yes. Yeah.
DK: And that was, what was it the whole crew in one Nissen hut?
RP: At that time, yes. Yeah.
SP: That’s why it was fairly intense living then and working.
RP: Yes, and Mike, Mike Tripp was in charge of the supplies of coal for the tortoise stove and we used to store the coal [laughs] the coal under his bed. He was the scruffiest airman you could ever see.
DK: Was the, was the coal sort of —
RP: Yeah.
DK: Pinched from different places?
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DW: Squirrelled.
DK: Squirrelled. Yeah.
SP: Squirreled away.
DK: So did it get rather cold in these Nissen huts then?
RP: Yes. Yeah. But the worst thing is when you’d come home and go to bed and get up in the morning and then the rest of the beds are empty.
DK: Yeah. [pause] Have you, have you been back to the airfield at all? Or —
RP: Yes. We had that main, that reunion I said at Bury St Edmund. That was around about Chedburgh. We went to Chedburgh.
DK: Right.
RP: For that. Yeah.
DK: So your whole crew went back to the airfield then.
RP: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: That must, that must have brought back a few memories for you.
RP: Yes. That’s right. Yeah. I never saw any of them again after that. Well, only Harry and Mike. Yeah. Paul Songest became an antiques dealer in Cornwall.
SP: Not near St Eval though.
RP: No. I don’t know quite know where. Where it was.
DK: Ok. Well, I’m going to switch this off now. I did put it back on again while you weren’t looking.
[recording paused]
DW: The planes in the sky.
SP: Very noisy.
DK: But as I say Ken, Ken Oatley, I interviewed him. He’s, he’s just turned a hundred and one.
RP: Well, he looks very well [laughs] If I look like that at a hundred and one I shan’t mind.
DK: So he, he was on he was on the Dresden raid with you. He’d have been ahead in the Mosquitoes. He was a navigator.
RP: Yes.
DK: On Mosquitoes.
RP: Yes. Yes. [pause] Actually Miles Tripp got, got in trouble for that. I never really did fully understand but he did. He deliberately missed the target.
DK: He mentions that in his book actually.
RP: Yes.
DK: He says —
RP: Yeah.
DK: He did. Were you aware of that at the time?
RP: No. No. No.
DK: Because he says in his book he didn’t get any confirmation from the Master Bomber.
RP: That’s right.
DK: And he said had he been ordered to he would have followed orders.
RP: He would have done. Yes.
DK: But as he didn’t get the order he —
RP: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Because did you ever talk about that raid at all afterwards?
RP: Well, if we did I really can’t remember it. But I’m sure we must have been done. Of course, that was horrendous. I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.
[pause]
DK: Because you said you appeared on German TV was it?
RP: Well, I never saw the programme.
DK: I’ve been trying to look for that to see if it’s on. On the internet somewhere.
RP: I remember the man coming over. Again, that was in Bury St Edmunds he interviewed us.
DK: Because the only reason I mentioned it Ken Oatley mentioned to me that he appeared on a German TV programme as well. So I’m wondering if you both appeared on the same TV programme in Germany.
RP: Well, I never saw anything of it at all.
DK: I’ll have to, I’ll have to check on that.
RP: Yeah.
DK: See if you’re on the big screen. Well, hopefully if you get your flypast you’re going to have Ray there with you.
RP: Yeah. That would be great wouldn’t it.
DW: Well, it’s he’ll need, he’ll need to be there.
DK: All the, all the staff are coming.
DW: He’s, he’s got a team. He’s got a team around him with two.
SP: An entourage.
DK: Oh right.
DW: Ray and seven others at Duxford. Samantha wasn’t even there.
SP: No.
DW: So that would have been eight.
SP: Yeah.
DW: And he’s got this full team haven’t you?
DK: A team of, a team of sherpas.
DW: Yeah, well just —
SP: I don’t know about that. Groupies I think.
DK: Groupies. Ah. How do you feel when you see the Lancaster flying again?
RP: It gives us shivers and that.
DK: Really.
RP: I don’t know whether you, you hear it first don’t you?
DK: Yeah. No. I do have a claim to fame. I have flown on one so I know what it’s like.
RP: Yeah.
DK: I flew on the Canadian one when it came over to the UK in 2014.
RP: That’s the one they’ve got at East Kirkby, is it?
DK: No. It’s back in Canada now.
RP: Oh right. Yeah.
DK: But the thing I remember when you’re on board is the noise.
RP: Yes.
DK: How did you feel after an operation of seven or eight hours. How?
RP: Well, as I say when you land yeah and you sit there for two or three minutes and don’t move. That was a good [laughs] a good moment that.
DK: I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe the noise it was making as you were inside and it’s flying along.
RP: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: But you’ve got that for —
RP: You’ve got your earphones on.
DK: But you liked the Lancaster then did you?
RP: Oh yes. That was our favourite. HAA-Able.
DW: The one at Duxford is a Canadian one.
DK: Yes.
DW: It is Canadian made. Yeah. It is. So that could be why it’s slightly different.
DK: Could be. Yeah.
DW: There could have just been a slight difference.
RP: Yeah. I I thought on that photograph that seems slightly different to me.
DW: Yeah.
RP: Well, I didn’t recognise the, the aileron controls on that one. That seemed to be quite a substantial bar control and build. I just remember a lot of wires.
DK: Oh.
DW: Well, they had taken a lot of the wiring out.
RP: Yes. That —
DW: A lot of the wiring is missing. So that would, all you’ve got really is the shell.
DK: It is the Canadians did a lot of modifications to them post war so —
RP: Yeah.
DK: You might be looking at post war modifications.
DW: Well, I think that was ’45 ’46 plane. Stuff like that if I’m correct. So it wasn’t —
DK: Do you think even now you could do the job of a flight engineer on a Lancaster or not?
RP: I would just have to sit there and let the pilot take off.
DK: Would you, would you know what to look for in the dials or for the engines?
RP: I had my own little panel down there.
DK: So it was, it was a better set up then the Stirlings then.
RP: I was, I’m talking about low flying. I was bending down reading my gauges and I looked out and there was a tree above me.
DK: Wow.
RP: Oh dear. We made him stop that in the end.
DK: He must, he must have been quite an expert pilot.
RP: He was [unclear] when he chose me for, to join the aircrew you know how you were all put in a hangar and you’d get told and I found myself sitting and waiting and nothing happened. I thought I’d had it and then suddenly this great tall Aussie stood in front of me, ‘Hiya Cobber. Is your name Ray Parke?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘You’re on top of the list are you?’ ‘Yes, that’s me.’ ‘You’re in. Come with me.’ [laughs] Yeah.
DK: He was, it was a good choice though was it? Or [unclear]
RP: Oh, he was a lovely chap, yeah. A lovely chap.
DK: Did you presumably that was the first time you’d met an Australian. Did you find them culturally —
RP: Yes.
DK: A bit different. Or —
RP: That was the first time I met an Australian. Yes.
DK: What did you think of them when you met the Aussies?
RP: Well, brash. Yes. I liked them. I got along well with them. Yeah.
DK: They obviously made good pilots as well.
RP: Yes. He turned out to be a good pilot. He had to learn like the rest of us.
DK: He, he, he didn’t carry on flying after the war then.
RP: Not that I know of. He became a general manager, General Motors manager in Australia. Adelaide I think or something. Yeah.
DK: You never got the chance to go out to Australia to see him then.
RP: Not to see him. I have been to Australia but —
DK: Alright. Ok. We’ll stop there.
DW: That’s lovely. Well —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ray Parke. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-03-30
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:46:45 Audio Recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending review
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AParkeRG230330, PParkeRG2303
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Bury St. Edmunds
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Norwich
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Saarbrücken
Wales--Glamorgan
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ray Parke trained as a flight engineer. During a training flight the pilot wanted to get back to base as soon as possible because he had a date but they were flying a Stirling. The pilot made an error on landing and the wheel stayed in the ditch and the Stirling kept going. The aircraft was a write off. Ray and his crew went on to join 218 Squadron at RAF Chedburgh. He completed forty operations before he was twenty. On their fortieth trip the CO said he would let them have a easy trip for the last one but it turned out to be Essen because it was changed at the last minute. On their first trip they got lost because the navigator had been given the wrong winds. On one operation they had a damaged engine and were losing height when a Mustang appeared and escorted them to the coast. Discusses the Eighth Passenger and Faith is a Windsock, the books his bomb aimer Miles Tripp wrote, and their crew reunion. Goes on to talk about his tour of operations, the bombing of Dresden and low flying.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-12
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
218 Squadron
African heritage
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
entertainment
flight engineer
Lancaster
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Methwold
RAF St Athan
RAF St Eval
Stirling
superstition
training