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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/263/3411/AGrayCJ151017.2.mp3
d77b2a53b586aa10835d976fe3601a19
Dublin Core
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Title
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Gray, Jeff
Jeff Gray
J Gray
Description
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One oral history interview with Jeff Gray.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gray, CJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jeff Gray at his home on the 17th of October 2015. I’ll just leave that there and if you want to -
JG: Yes.
DK: Go through your pictures.
JG: I -
DK: If I can, one thing. If I keep looking down it’s just to check that the -
JG: Yeah. Yes. Running -
DK: Old machine’s working.
JG: I was very fortunate in my choice when I joined the RAF. I was packed off to Texas. To America. And -
DK: If I just take you back a little bit.
JG: Yes.
DK: What made you want to join the RAF? Did you have any -
JG: I was -
DK: Choice in the matter or –
JG: I was in the Home Guard. LDV which became the Home Guard and I decided that I would like to join up and so I asked the farm manager I was working for if I could have a day off.
DK: So you were working on the farms -
JG: Yes.
DK: At the time then.
JG: I’m a farm boy.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JG: Still. And he said, ‘You want a day off?’ He said, ‘But you’ve got a day off. You’ve got New Year’s Day.’ So I said, ‘I think, I think I need more than that,’ so he let me go. I went to the recruiting centre, the combined recruiting centre in Aberdeen.
DK: Yeah.
JG: The army and the navy guys weren’t there. The RAF man was and I think he thought it would be fun if he stole the would-be Gordon Highlander away who had come to see if he could get a kilt and joined the RAF. He said, ‘You’d like the RAF better. They sleep between sheets at night.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’d love to try that.’ But he didn’t realise that I was, anyway that led to another station in Edinburgh a few weeks later and I went to that two days so I had to say to Jake, the farm grieve, ‘I need a week off.’ He said, ‘You can’t go doing that,’ he said, ‘I’ve signed. You’re producing food and I’ve signed all the documents and you’re exempt from military service.’
DK: Was it considered a reserved occupation?
JG: Yes it was.
DK: What you were doing.
JG: It was reserved.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: And I said, ‘Well growing food isn’t going to be enough to stop this Hitler guy, I don’t think,’ so I went off. He gave me the week off. What defeated him was he said, he said, ‘I’ll have to take a week’s wages off you.’ My annual wage was ten pounds. I said, ‘Can you do the mathematics of that Jake?’ He said, ‘No. I can’t.’ So, so off I went and once again fortune smiled upon me. I was able to make a reasonable impression on the board but I failed the mathematics. The mathematics were truly, I hadn’t covered at my school. They said, can you retake this if we give you, if we postpone your date of joining till September can you take the, and I said, ‘I can, yes’. And so I came back and thought now how do I do this so I asked the headmaster, a chap I’d always liked, the domini and he said, ‘Well you can’t go into Aberdeen. You can’t do any of that. You’re going to join the classes here, you’re going to sit at the back,’ he said, ‘And I’ll teach you mathematics till it’s coming out of your ears.’ So that’s what I did and when eventually I was up to snuff took the exam and that was it but they had already set my date to go and so I was stuck with that and I had to earn a living for a little while and I found that there were more ways of earning a living as a farm labourer than I’d realised. It was harvest time. If I went south I could go to harvest and they would pay me five pounds. Come back to Aberdeenshire and get another five pounds for the next month and go north into the wilds -
DK: Nice one –
JG: And get another.
DK: Excellent.
JG: So in three months I’d got fifteen pounds and my annual wages was only ten. I said, ‘Jeff. I think you’ve made a discovery.’ I was never able to really put it into practice and when I reported to the Lord’s Cricket Ground they went through the training there and assembled us eventually and decided where we were going to go and they shipped us off across the Atlantic on a ship called the Banfora in a little convoy and although it was a horrible ship and I didn’t care much for it it was very useful because we had a destroyer on each side sending messages to each other so we spent the time taking down their messages, you know, from the Aldiss lamps and when we got there they assembled us in a hangar and told us where we were going. Texas.
DK: Oh.
JG: Well like every school boy of the time I’d read everything I had about you know adventure comics, all that stuff and what a wonderful thing that was. So here we are in Texas.
DK: Oh right.
JG: A photograph, and there’s Jeff Gray there.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So at this point, by the time you got to Texas there had been no flying at all. All your basic flying was done -
JG: I had to do a grading course on the Tiger Moth.
DK: Right. And that was in the UK.
JG: And that was in the UK.
DK: Right.
JG: And if you passed the grading course you could go.
DK: And then straight out -
JG: Failed that and -
DK: To America.
JG: You didn’t get anywhere.
DK: Ok.
JG: And so -
DK: So this was your class at the time then.
JG: It is yes. Here’s the full class all fortunately named Number One British Flying Training.
DK: So just, just for the recording so it’s Number One British Flying Training School.
JG: Yes. That’s -
DK: Number nine course.
JG: You will find the G men in a row here.
DK: Right.
JG: Gordon and Gray.
DK: Oh I see.
JG: And Guttridge.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
JG: And -
DK: All alphabetically -
JG: We were the G men. Eventually, they, I was the only one who survived the course.
DK: Really.
JG: Which was, but they all had a career. Gordon for instance had been a policeman. He, I forget what he did in the RAF but he went back to his native Glasgow and became chief of police there.
DK: Really.
JG: Had a splendid career and Guttridge who never got over failing the course went and did something. A replica trip of Shackleton when they sailed across that ocean and across -
DK: Oh.
JG: And so he wasn’t lacking in courage.
DK: No.
JG: So there we are. So there are a number of pictures of aeroplanes. The Wellington.
DK: Wellington.
JG: Which, of course, I spent a lot of time on the Wellington as an instructor and a picture of the -
DK: Manchester.
JG: The Manchester.
DK: Manchester. Yes. Yes.
JG: You will recognise the Manchester was the most deadly of aeroplanes. It had these unreliable engines.
DK: Yes.
JG: It was simply awful.
DK: So how long were actually in America for?
JG: I think it took nearly a year altogether you know as a journey time and what have you.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. And when I came back of course they said we’ve got to knock you guys into shape again you know and you’re not allowed to wear shoes because you’re not commissioned and only commissioned officers can wear shoes and these lovely shoes we’d brought back with us from the States had to be scrapped.
DK: Oh no.
JG: Very foolish but anyway this aeroplane, the Manchester, you can see from the tail unit that it became the Lancaster.
DK: Yes.
JG: Just as it was. It is in fact a Lanc with new wings and new engines.
DK: The four, four engines.
JG: And so became a, I’ve got a picture here. I don’t think anyone recognises who she is. She was one of my childhood, school heroines.
DK: Oh it’s not Amy Johnson.
JG: Amy Johnson.
DK: It is Amy Johnson yes. Yeah
JG: Yes. Yeah. And at that -
DK: Did you, did you -
JG: Meeting in Lincoln I passed that around the table and -
DK: Did you ever -
JG: So much for fame. No one recognised her.
DK: Did you ever, did you ever meet her?
JG: I never did get to met her.
DK: You never met her.
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: Our paths did cross at some time when she, I arrived in a Comet, flying a Comet to Australia down to Melbourne and, by chance on the date when she had done her flight.
DK: Right.
JG: Now there’s always this rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. Melbourne said Sydney doesn’t count. She finished here. And she was carried ashore, down the street by the staff of the Menzies Hotel and when I got there the street was crowded and there was a guy who’d been a nobody on that occasion, now he’s the chief porter and he said, ‘We’re going to make you re-enact this. You’re going to be carried.’
DK: Did, did people like Amy Johnson influence you in to sort of a career in aviation? Is it -
JG: I think it was one of those things that yes you form these impressions.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And yeah. So -
DK: So when you got back from America, from your training there and you, what happened then? Did you join, go straight to a squadron or was there further training?
JG: No. No. There was a lot of training. We’d only flown single-engined aeroplanes. We had to be checked out on, on Ansons and the like to -
DK: Right.
JG: To multi-engined aeroplanes and then we wound up at an Operational Training Unit at Cottesmore. Number 14 OTU and where we flew the Wellington.
DK: Right.
JG: And when we’d done that we had to be converted to the four engine Lancasters and there was a -
DK: Did you, did you have to –
JG: Conversion Unit at Wigsley which we did that.
DK: Wigsley. Yes.
JG: And we flew Halifaxes and Lancasters because they were running low on the Lancasters and they still had a few Halifaxes so -
DK: So that was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
JG: That was the Heavy -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Conversion Unit. Yes.
DK: Did you ever get to fly the Manchester?
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: No. I just, someone sent me some pictures of it and I kept them because it seemed to me to be such an intriguing tale of this very unsuccessful, unreliable aeroplane.
DK: Such a successful -
JG: Which turned into the most successful ever.
DK: Can you, can you remember much about the Wellingtons and Halifaxes? What they were like as aircraft to fly.
JG: I loved the Wellington. Oh yes. A great aeroplane really. It had no vices at all except maybe one thing. It had an automatic trim that when you put down the flap the automatic trim readjusted the attitude.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And if that didn’t work you had to be the automatic trim, [laughs] if it didn’t work and you had to catch on quickly but apart from that as a defect I thought it was a great aeroplane to be able to fly and it was robust, and Barnes Wallis, of course, again. Yeah.
DK: What about the Halifax? Was that -
JG: Well I don’t have much impression of the Halifax except it was very similar and the instructor pretended that it was a Lancaster.
DK: Right.
JG: And you called for the power settings you would call on a Lancaster and he set the power for the Halifax.
DK: Right.
JG: So this was very confusing [laughs] I found.
DK: I can imagine.
JG: I’m not sure I cared a lot for it.
DK: So, so although your training was on the Halifax. They were really preparing you for the Lancaster.
JG: Yes. Yes. It was just they had run out of Lancasters and they’d substituted Halifaxes which at the time they seemed to have plenty of them. Yeah.
DK: So, from, from heavy conversion unit then was it straight to your squadron.
JG: Yes. They said, they took us, they put us in a hangar and we were assembled there and told to choose our crew and we were handed a list. When that had been done that would be your crew and if you couldn’t do it they would make up your mind. They would give you a list.
DK: I’ve often heard about this where you were put in to a hangar. I find it very unusual because -
JG: Absolutely weird. Yeah.
DK: Because the military is normally you do this, you do that.
JG: It was.
DK: And this is very different to sort of the military thinking where you got -
JG: I thought it was a very clever move indeed.
DK: Really.
JG: And I stood there like an idiot. I didn’t know where to start and this scruffy Yorkshireman came up. An aggressive, little, scruffy Yorkshireman come. He said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No,’ I said. He said, ‘Well you have now. Let’s go and find the rest of them.’ [laughs] So that was my first impression of Jeff Ward the Yorkshireman and we were buddies from then on.
DK: So this, this forming your own crew in a hangar, you think it was a good idea then. It seemed to, it seemed to work.
JG: It was a very smart move. Yes. It meant there was no objection. It was your choice. You’d done the rounds there and you’d picked them all and that was it. If you couldn’t decide they decided for you but mostly people were able to pick guys they liked the look of or whatever. Yeah.
DK: So after that it was then the posting to 61 squadron.
JG: No. I think, I think we did the OTU after that but -
DK: Alright. Ok.
JG: I’m not quite sure. Yes. And the 61 squadron, I don’t know, was the luck of the draw I suppose. Yes. And that’s what brought me into contact with Lincoln and the cathedral.
DK: So where were you based with 61?
JG: We started at Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
JG: In Nottingham and we were very displeased to be moved because we were just getting to know all the pubs there and [laughs] all the Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem and all those and suddenly we were shifted off to Lincoln and that seemed, and then and then from Skellingthorpe they sent us to Coningsby and that I liked. Coningsby was a great place to be.
DK: So you went to Coningsby next then.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JG: And then back to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Skellingthorpe.
JG: And Skelly was a cold and sad place in a way because it was very basic where the others, Syerston and Coningsby were regular accommodation and a good style.
DK: It’s a housing estate now.
JG: Yeah but I think if, if you’re in a group and you’re living in the same nissen hut and you’re eating in the same mess and everything you all become pals.
DK: Sure.
JG: It pulls you all together. Yes. Yes. So and I was interviewed just before I went there for a commission and I was interviewed by a chap called Bonham Carter and I took a very poor, I have a very poor opinion of Bonham Carter because my school in Scotland was [Raine?] North Public School. To his mind I had defrauded someone. It was not a public school. So I had to explain to him that the Scottish educational system was better and greater than the English and when we said it was a public school the public could attend. I said, ‘When you talk about a public school -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The public may not attend.’ And he put down on my documents, “Not officer material.” Quite right too. [laughs]
DK: Oh dear.
JG: He got that right but he did me a great favour in fact in that I went as an NCO and we were a crew of NCOs and were all mucking in together as it were.
DK: Did you find on a squadron a bit difficult though that some of the pilots were obviously officers?
JG: Yes.
DK: And some of them weren’t so you didn’t necessarily mix with all of the pilots.
JG: No.
DK: Was that an issue or –
JG: I don’t think it was really.
DK: No.
JG: People seemed able to cope with that. I think I felt sorry for chaps who were allocated to senior officers because that sort of changed the relationship altogether.
DK: So the dynamics of the crew sort of –
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah
JG: But they seemed to be able to bond quite well but I think it took them a little bit longer and we had, I always felt that this Bonham Carter had done me a favour.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Because we bonded straight away and shared everything.
DK: So your crew were all sergeants.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As in that -
DK: A picture here. Yeah.
JG: [?] I showed you.
DK: Oh.
JG: Yeah, that one. Yes. There we are. Yes. So – and I’ve kept a number of things that impressed me. There’s a plot of, there’s a bomb plot for Stettin which seemed to me to be self-evident that all this scatter coming in from this direction that what they needed to do was to, instead of picking the target they should have -
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Moved the target a bit beyond it and then they would have got most of the bombs falling where –
DK: Yeah.
JG: They wanted instead of wasted out here.
DK: It was known as creep back wasn’t it?
JG: Creep back. Yes.
DK: Creep back. Yeah.
JG: And it seemed to me there was a very simple solution to that rather than master bombers and that nonsense but, so I think that was why I kept that because no one paid any attention to it really [laughs].
DK: So you put the aiming point about there.
JG: Yeah. Put the aiming point -
DK: And then that would move –
JG: About a mile further on. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. An imaginary point the Pathfinder guys could find the area and identify it but then move the pretend and you would get a lot more of these bombs where you wanted them.
DK: Was it at 61 squadron then the first time that you saw the Lancaster and flew the Lancaster?
JG: Well yes. Yes that’s right. Yes.
DK: So -
JG: We had the Conversion Unit.
DK: Right. Ok. So what were your, after the Wellington and the Halifax what were your feelings about the Lancaster?
JG: I liked it from the beginning. Yeah. I thought it was a great aeroplane. It was a natural aeroplane. It didn’t have any defects that I, except getting in and out of it was a bit of a squeeze but it was a very bad aeroplane to escape from but otherwise it seemed robust and it, yeah I liked it. I thought it was great. And the sad thing is that it’s only recently that it’s sort of come into its own. Up till just recently and perhaps that Memorial it was the fighter boys, the Battle of Britain boys, they were the glamour boys. Bomber Command were nowhere and they’d rather blotted their copy books towards the end with that bombing raid on Dresden but then that Memorial seemed to change something quiet subtly in the minds of the British people and so the Lancaster has now become the aeroplane to have been on [laughs]. So -
DK: Strange that isn’t it?
JG: Yeah. I feel -
DK: So, can, can you recall your, your first mission then? Where that was to?
JG: Modane was the first one we did.
DK: That was the first one, to -
JG: And then the next one was Dusseldorf when Bill Reid got his, his Victoria Cross.
DK: So did you know Bill Reid then?
JG: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I knew Bill Reid fairly well because we were fellow countrymen, you see.
DK: Sure. Sure.
JG: I met him. He’d just got his medal ribbon up and he was out celebrating with his crew in Boston and we’d been to the Assembly Rooms to a dance and he wasn’t the sort of guy who danced. He was one of the guys who just looked on from the doorway and I was often one of the guys who missed the transport back to camp but I’d found a lady who would give me bed and breakfast so I’m on my way there when I come across [Ellis] and it was his radio officer [both?] looking for somewhere to sleep the night. I said, ‘Come with me to this lodging house,’ and the landlady answered the door, ‘Oh Jeff,’ she said, ‘Come in. Not him,’ she said, ‘He’s drunk. He will make a mess of my beds.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I said, ‘Mrs. You will be the only landlady in Lincolnshire, perhaps in the country who has turned away a man who has just won a Victoria Cross.’
DK: Oh no.
JG: ‘Get off,’ she said, ‘I don’t believe you.’ But it was true and he behaved himself. I said, ‘He’ll pay for any damage anyway.’
DK: She let him in then did she?
JG: So she let him in. So every time I met him I would tease him a little bit about his days when he was dancing and so on and his wife really never quite followed it. He doesn’t dance, he can’t dance, he thinks it’s a route march.
DK: I’ve always heard the story, I don’t know how true it was that when he met his wife it was some years before he mentioned that he’d been awarded the Victoria Cross.
JG: Oh I don’t know about that but quite possible yes. He had quite a career after that. The MacRobert’s family took him up and sent him through university.
DK: Right.
JG: And where he got a degree which and the MacRobert’s family they’d bought a Spitfire and I think they spent money on a Stirling -
DK: Stirling.
JG: Of all things. And he was given employment with them on their fertiliser division.
DK: Right.
JG: And so every time I met him at these get-togethers I said, ‘You’re still are pushing the bull shit then.’ [laughs]. ‘You’re selling horse shit.’ [laughs] I think I’ve kept some -
DK: Yes.
JG: I think I’ve kept. There he is, a piece of information there.
DK: I did meet him actually about fifteen years ago.
JG: Yeah. Yeah that’s -
DK: Because he ended up a prisoner of war didn’t he? I believe he was shot down later on.
JG: Yes. Yes. Yes. There. What else have we got here? I went from Bomber Command to Transport Command and that’s a BOAC York. That’s a York which was a development of the Lancaster.
DK: So you flew, you flew the York as well.
JG: Yeah. I, I flew the guys back from the Far East.
DK: Right.
JG: Who had been prisoners at Changi jail and all that dreadful railway and the guys who couldn’t be shipped back were flown back and I had to sign up to do that. My demob was cancelled until we’d finished this particular project. What I didn’t realise because I was enjoying myself I told the other guys around me pick me up the best of the jobs.] [laughs] So -
DK: So how many, just stepping back a little bit, how many operations did you actually do with Bomber Command?
JG: Thirty.
DK: Thirty.
JG: Yes.
DK: So one tour.
JG: We were, we were pulled off after that dreadful Nuremberg trip.
DK: Right.
JG: And I think Bomber Command decided, I think, at that stage they weren’t going to be able to bomb the Germans into submission and that start the preparation, preparing for the invasion.
DK: Were you actually on the Nuremberg -
JG: Yes. I was.
DK: You was.
JG: Yes. It was, it was a beautiful clear night. It was going to be cloudy all the way until we got to the target when it would be clear but the reverse was true. They’d picked a southerly route. It was moonlight. It was like clear as day and I think we were in real difficulty with the, with the routing and on that occasion we quickly found ourselves with an enemy on each side. Now that is the trap. You can’t beat these two if they’re working together ‘cause you turn towards one and you’ve given the other a non-deflection shot. You’re dead men really if you try and corkscrew your way out of that one and I thought we’ll try and outrun them. I put on full power. Well of course that was useless and I knew it would be ‘cause they had twenty knots faster than we were. They could catch us at any time so they just kept position and kept signalling each other and so I then pulled off the power, put down some flap which was illegal and said, ‘You’re not going to enjoy this bit guys because we are going to see the,’ our stalling speed will be lower than theirs. ‘They’re not going to enjoy following us now,’ and sure as hell they didn’t. Their stalling speed was much higher. They daren’t risk it and I was just on this, but anyway once I’d seen them off we straightened up, put on the power and climbed back up again and, got it, ‘Done it Jeff,’ I said the other Jeff and blow me down, there they were again and I said, ‘Well I’m going to pick this guy on the left. He’s the leader I think. I’m going to ram him so stand by. We’ll hit him with the nose. We might lose a bit of the aeroplane but he will lose his starboard wing.’ ‘Yes,’ they said and we headed for him and I think the guy realised it. He shot off. He disappeared. They both did. And my navigator said, ‘I haven’t been able to follow that,’ he said, ‘I think we’re lost.’ ‘No, no, Jeff we’re never lost. We’re uncertain of our position.’ ‘So what will you do?’ I said, ‘We will add ten minutes to the eta,’ and I goofed. I should have added ten minutes to the end of that route because the last leg was down to the southeast but I added it to the run so I turned on eta and of course we were well short and we were getting to the end of this ten minutes when some searchlights came on looking for us. ‘Davvy.’ I said, ‘We’re going to give them a surprise. Bomb doors open. Let them have it.’ So we bombed that bloody searchlight battery and the lights went out but there were a lot of guys in the same position. I didn’t know until afterwards who saw the incendiaries burning and they started bombing and in fact we’d hit Schweinfurt.
DK: No.
JG: And we didn’t know until it was back plotted the next day but at that stage by the end of it I could see sixty, seventy, eighty miles away in the distance the show was beginning and we’d missed it. They’re going to be, blotted our copy book. We’ve bombed the wrong bloody target. We’ve made a horse. When I got back I was astonished. They greeted us with open arms there were so few coming back [laughs]
DK: So you -
JG: And they were trying to keep the number below the magic hundred. Yeah. They were cheating. They weren’t including the guys who crashed.
DK: Ok.
JG: [who never came back]
DK: ‘Cause it was over a hundred wasn’t it?
JG: It was over a hundred. No doubt about that.
DK: Did you see many of the aircraft go down at –
JG: No. I don’t think I did. No. We, it was only very occasionally that you saw someone being blown up. We had what were known as scarecrews which was something that we’d invented that didn’t bloody exist. We thought it was some German pyrotechnic. No it wasn’t. It was some guy, usually a pathfinder carrying all the coloured flares.
DK: I’ve heard, I’ve heard the stories of the scarecrows.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So you’re saying they were actually -
JG: They were.
DK: Pathfinder aircraft going up.
JG: Yeah. They were but we believed at the time that it was a pyrotechnic that the Germans were using.
DK: Was that a story that was purposefully put around do you think?
JG: I think it was a story that the Bomber Command guys like myself invented and the bosses decided to keep quiet about it. I think they knew but they didn’t deceive us. They just let us go on thinking what we already thought.
DK: So you weren’t in any trouble then for hitting the wrong town.
JG: There was no question, there was no question of it. No. They were just so bloody pleased to see us they didn’t give a monkey about where we’d been -
DK: No.
JG: Or what we’d done.
DK: How did you feel knowing that there was those losses and the way the route had been drawn that you were going in a long straight line for several hundred miles in, in full, it was full moonlight wasn’t it?
JG: Yeah I think the winds were a nonsense, the weather forecast was completely the opposite. When they said it was going to be cloudy all the way, we’d have cloud cover, it was clear all the way except the target was cloudy and so I think the actual attack on the target was not very clever but in a way it’s helped the end of an era. They switched us to the French targets and the French targets were such a piece of duff they were only going to count as a third of a trip but it turned out that that was not correct because to bomb a French target we could not bomb a French target while there were French workers there in the marshalling yard or the factory and we had to wait for some system of someone in the resistance would send a signal to the UK who would send a signal to us to tell us when we could start bombing so we were circling around you know with nothing to do except wait and the Luftwaffe -
DK: While you were being shot at.
JG: Began to take an interest in us and come up and shoot people down and on one of the worst of those Mailly le Camp in Belgium they shot down I think it was forty two aeroplanes.
DK: Were you on that operation?
JG: I was on that one, yes. Yes. I claimed to be the guy who put out the spot fires. I may be mistaken. It was disputed by everybody except I continued to say it and I can still to say it now the others have gone [laughs]
DK: So the spot fire?
JG: It was being marked by Cheshire.
DK: Right.
JG: And he had developed this idea of low level marking and of using these red spot fires and he had everybody waiting with the flares that his colleagues had circled this and I took one look at that and said to Jeff Ward, ‘We are not joining that. We’re heading into the darkest place we can find and then we’ll come back now and again and see what’s happening.’ And just as it happened, as we got back he had it marked and we went in and when we pulled away my rear gunner Jock [Haye] said, ‘We put the bloody red spot fires out.’ I said, ‘Jock, I don’t care we’re on our way home,’ and we could hear these arguments going on. I think it was either a Canadian or an Australian and they were giving him a hard time because he wanted to remark the target, ‘Stop bombing, stop bombing,’ and they wouldn’t because -
DK: Wanted to go.
JG: They could see what we’d done and I think it was forty two aeroplanes lost and we killed one German. They’d left an NCO to guard the camp and that was their only casualty. Our chaps busy with the crosswords and whatever, some of their intelligence was a bit duff. They thought there was a whole army there at this tank training school but they’d left the week before. So -
DK: Yeah.
JG: So it was a sad tale that one and there was nothing happy about it.
DK: What was your opinions of Cheshire at that time was he well known throughout Bomber Command or -
JG: Yes he was and I got to know him after that because when he left and he inherited this property he set up these Cheshire Homes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Some guy that, you know, had nowhere to go he took with him and he said anyone who came along would be taken in provided they could do something useful. There was no charge. He paid for it. Yeah. And I thought he’s taken leave of his senses but then I realised afterwards that he was the first to come to his senses and I was flying this time in BOAC and on a VC10 and he was a passenger on one occasion and I talked to him at Heathrow in the VIP lounge and he was grumbling about the coffee and I said, ‘Put a shot of this in with it,’ and of course he was teetotal [laughs] Poisonous you see. And I said, ‘Do you remember a place called Mailly le Camp?’ And he said, ‘Shall I ever forget?’ So I chatted to him on this trip and I found, yeah he was the first guy to come to his senses and we became not exactly friends but I got to know him afterwards though I didn’t know him at the time. Yeah.
DK: Interesting. So is he someone you’ve got the respect for of that post war [chain of who was?]?
JG: Oh yes. I think what he did he went around after that every year visiting places where they had been bombed and delivering the cross of nails which I think I’ve got a picture here of one of the German newspaper. There I am with the chairman and that’s the cross of nails. The Coventry.
DK: Ok.
JG: [?] whatever.
DK: Yes.
JG: And every year and he visited Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
DK: Yes. Yes because he was-
JG: Check that they’d got them there.
DK: He was actually on the Nagasaki raid wasn’t he?
JG: Yeah.
DK: He was the British observer.
JG: Yeah so that’s, that’s in Germany that’s the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church that we destroyed.
DK: That’s Berlin isn’t it? I have seen that.
JG: Yes.
DK: Well not that. I’ve seen the church.
JG: Yeah. Yes. [pause] So that’s my favourite aeroplane.
DK: Ah the VC10.
JG: The VC10. I liked that beast. I liked the Comet as well but I like the beast. Yeah.
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: What?
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: Oh was it really? Yes.
DK: 1981. British Airways.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. That’s one. Yes.
DK: So, you, you were in Transport Command then.
JG: I was in Transport Command. Missed this lot.
DK: Right.
JG: You know. I struggled to get a job. When we were on 61 I did have an offer from Bennett to join the Pathfinders.
DK: Right.
JG: And I called a get-together with the crew where we would vote on the issue as to whether we stayed with 61 or if we went to the Pathfinders and it was a bit of a set up because I had got this, with this DFM I’d got twenty five quid and it was the only twenty five quid that I had at the time.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I spent it all in Leagate public house and of course it snowballed on me. Not just my crew but the ground crew and the girls from the parachute, they all came and anyone who came in the pub the bartender was saying, ‘Are you with Jeff Gray’s crew?’ And they said, ‘No. Why?’ ‘Well there’s free beer if you are.’ ‘Oh, yes, good old Jeff.’ [laughs] And so the vote was stay 61.
DK: Ok.
JG: It could hardly have been anything else but I don’t know if he forgave me or, ‘cause I didn’t ever meet him personally but after the war when I came out I missed this lot. The one guy who offered me a job was Bennett and, but he said, ‘You won’t be flying as a pilot. We’re taking off all the navigators on this British/South American route we’re starting and you will be acting as navigator.’ And I said, ‘Oh God. Never. I think it’s a dreadful mistake. A recipe for disaster.’ And it was of course.
DK: He lost a couple of aircraft didn’t he, in South America?
JG: He did and he did try to take the top off the Pyrenees.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And they cancelled the airline. Put him out of business.
DK: And it was at the point you joined BOAC then.
JG: Yes. Yes. That was about all that was left. [laughs] I looked at Quantas and I foolishly turned that down because they were the worst paid in the business but today the top but, and I knew that I couldn’t join any of the continentals because I was hopeless at language but so the BOAC as a very humble first officer was where I got to.
DK: So what did you start flying on with BOAC then at the beginning?
JG: Oh dear. I’m hopeless on dates. I don’t have that.
DK: Or the type of aircraft.
JG: On the, on the Yorks to start with.
DK: Avro Yorks.
JG: And then we moved up to the Comets and the VC10s and then one day I wound up when I didn’t go on the Jumbo which I really should have done as everybody else did but what I had in mind I knew that the Concorde was coming along and I thought that’s for me and, but when it came to it and I was interviewed for that they said you have to have three years clear service before you can repay the cost of the training and you haven’t got three years clear so there I was on this bloody tripwire that they’d set for me. I couldn’t get on the Concorde.
DK: That was a shame.
JG: And, however, as one door shuts another one opens. The Gulf Aviation in Bahrain were buying some of these VC10s and I was offered a job straightaway to train their guys because at this stage I was an instructor, an examiner and all the rest of the stuff so I went to Bahrain for two years and stayed for six.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So did you actually fly the Gulf Air VC10s or were you just training?
JG: Yes I flew the Gulf Air VC10s and then when they got the Tristar
DK: Tristars. Yeah.
JG: I flew that. And it was at that stage that I had to, I’d promised myself with the old Atlantic boys that I met on the Atlantic you mustn’t stay too long. There comes a time when you begin to lose it and don’t stay till then. Go just before. Always leave the party when it’s at its height and I thought this aeroplane can do everything I can do except it does it better. It flies, the autopilot flies better than I can. It does the navigation which was always my weak point, it’ll do the communication. What the hell am I doing here? Time to go. So I quit. Yeah.
DK: So what year would that have been?
JG: That was -
DK: That you stopped flying?
JG: ’74. I came back from Bahrain. It was 1980 I think. Yes.
DK: 1980
JG: Yeah. Came back in time for Christmas and I’ve stayed away from aviation ever since. From that time I had staff travel but they then brought me out of that.
DK: Did you ever get to fly on Concorde?
JG: No.
DK: You didn’t. Oh.
JG: No. Sadly. When I was in Bahrain one of the first flights I did was to Bahrain. I was able to see it and talk to some of the guys that were on it but I really didn’t want to know. I was really very, I was still very huffy about it. [laughs]
DK: So what did you think about the VC10? What was, what was that as an aircraft?
JG: Yes the VC10 was a lovely aeroplane, yes. Really. A winner. It was a shame that they didn’t continue the development but they didn’t. They went all American. So, yes. I was involved very briefly in the saga of the material that Rolls invented. This new, what do you call it? The new -
DK: The engine. The alloys. The -
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: They were making the blades of this new –
DK: Alloys yeah, yeah.
JG: And we had number four engine was fitted with that on the VC10 with these new turbine blades and they were looking for a favourable report on it and we went down to Lagos. The weather was bad and we diverted to Akra. We ran through some thunder storms and heavy rain and we had to shut the engine down. This number four. And as I walked ashore a guy at the aeroplane was shouting at me to come back. It was the engineer. ‘Come and look at this,’ he said, ‘skipper.’ And it was hanging like knitting. It had shredded. The material was no damned good.
DK: Wasn’t any good.
JG: And I did myself no good by sending in a voidance report saying, ‘Any of you guys with Rolls Royce shares, sell today.’ [laughs] The Americans took up the material and perfected it.
DK: It’s the old story isn’t it?
JG: The old story and they’ve been scoring on it ever since. Yes. And now the whole aeroplane’s made in America.
DK: Yes. So looking back on your time in the RAF particularly your time on Bomber Command how do you look back on it now all these years later? Is it -
JG: I regret to say that I have some misgivings. I had at the time, I think it was Lincoln Cathedral did it for me when I first saw that and I thought armies of men came here and built this thing and what do we do? We try and knock them all down.
DK: Destroy them.
JG: It seemed all wrong to me but that’s the business we were in and I think I kept that idea in mind and I got involved with, let me look and see what I’ve got on that. Oh I think that the, that church there is the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church. My wife and I set about that to see if we could do something about it and I thought I’d go down there what else have I got? Have I got anything on it?
DK: It’s not it there is it?
JG: Oh that’s it. Thanks very much.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. I decided that this is the -
DK: Yes I recognise that from my trips to Berlin.
JG: That is the church which we destroyed that but the bell tower is still stood and they kept it as a symbol of defiance. They’d defied the bombing, they’d defied the Russians, they’d defied, defied the partition of the city. Everything. And the bell tower stood and, but it will have to be demolished because bits were falling off it and people were objecting and the council said it would have to be demolished or rebuilt but they had no money so I wrote to them and said why not set up a fund and ask the guys who did the damage to pay for it and I think I’ve got all that here. [London Times?] of your dilemma. You should try to save it. Why not ask the guys who did the damage to make a contribution to a restoration fund and so on and I took part in a number of raids against Berlin starting on the 2nd of December 1943 and on their behalf I would like to make a contribution to the fund of five hundred pounds to start the ball rolling. To my astonishment they took it up. There is the reply from the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church and so the fund was successful. We raised quite a lot of money by giving the sole story to the Berlin newspaper chain that, there we are being interviewed for that. That’s the picture -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Being copied here and so they did it and there we are. That’s myself, my wife and my grand-daughter, my son’s wife Gerlinde. And ‘English bomber pilot triggers off fund raising’ and I’ve, there’s the, it stalled for a bit and then the, raising funds. The guys in this country didn’t want to join in I’m afraid.
DK: No.
JG: They were all raising money for the Bomber Command Memorial here and didn’t want to know about this one. Then, but the National Lottery came in with money and then Angela Merkel -
DK: Oh yeah.
JG: Moved in.
DK: Yes. Yes.
JG: Topped the fund out so -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The restoration started and I think it’s complete as far as I know and I would like to think there might be a big ceremony of some kind but nothing has happened.
DK: No.
JG: It should have been ready last year but then they were celebrating the Berlin wall taken, took everything. I should think if they do it it will be the 26th of November when we destroyed it so -
DK: So, how, how do you feel this is the, you obviously do, it might sound a silly question, is this an important part of your, your life and in some ways a response to your time in Bomber Command?
JG: Yes I think it was. Yes. I think it was. These are a number of smaller shots.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I had made if you want to and, yeah I think it was a reaction to that, a guilty conscience I don’t know.
DK: Did you –
JG: But anyway I’m very pleased that it succeeded.
DK: Yeah. Did you manage to get many more, any more RAF -
JG: No.
DK: Guys.
JG: Very few.
DK: Very few.
JG: I was very fortunate in that the ones I knew and I was able to ring up and talk to them or to their widow they would say, ‘Sorry Jeff. I think you’re a bit off your trolley. It’s not going to work.’ And they were quite right so I said, ‘Ok. I’ll have to do it without,’ and we did get, my wife and I did get invited to the, when they got the glockenspiel working and ringing mid-day but she wasn’t well enough to go.
DK: No.
JG: And so I didn’t get to that.
DK: Ok.
JG: But I have lost touch with them a bit since then. Yes.
DK: Ok.
JG: I’m really hopeful that this crazy Scotswoman who has appeared, Nicola Sturgeon.
DK: Sturgeon. Yes. Yes.
JG: Is moving in everywhere she can. I’ve been in touch with her because I think she’s got some good ideas and she’s one of the people who gets things done. You may not like her or like what she’s doing.
DK: No well. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As a fellow Scot and she wrote in very sympathetic vein and so I think that I will be in touch with her again to see if there is anything is happening. If there’s going to be a ceremony could she get in touch with Angela Merkel and see if we could arrange a ceremony because having separated Scotland -
DK: Having got that far
JG: She might like to make a fuss of it.
DK: Yeah. Definitely.
JG: So wait and see.
DK: Hope something comes about.
JG: Some of these pictures I’ve got that have been made up are for her attention.
DK: Right.
JG: Because if you hit people with pictures like that they pay attention.
DK: Yeah. Definitely. So how many raids on Berlin did you actually -
JG: Nine.
DK: Actually do. Nine.
JG: Yeah. I met people who did ten and I met people who did dozens more but not of the big sixteen you see. Yeah. And that first one that they did in November which destroyed the church did a lot of damage, you know. It destroyed the zoo and there were wild animals rushing about everywhere and had to be rounded up and that. I think that rather misled the guys in Bomber Command into thinking this was going to be easy but it wasn’t and I think we set off with the wrong kit. The stuff they’d done on the short range, the Cologne and the like, medieval cities, wooden frames, narrow streets.
DK: Burnt.
JG: You set up a fire storm with a bomb that shatters the tiles and the windows and the incendiaries, you know, get into the building and people die in the fire. Lack of, suffocate. But none of us had been to Berlin. It’s not like that. Great wide boulevards and the tall buildings made of stone and brick and steel with sloping roofs and we had the wrong kit. We were never going to set that on fire. Ruined the plane trees in the street, they all burned, you know but the nature of the buildings they were sheltering in they had made passages through from one to the other so if that one caught fire they went -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Into the next one. Yeah. And in the morning they cleared up the rubbish and tidied the street and went back to work and I think the real thing that defeated us was the fact that in the blitz in the UK in Coventry and London it produced a spirit of defiance. And I think if you produce that in people you can’t defeat them.
DK: No. No.
JG: So -
DK: No.
JG: Anyway, so -
DK: And what’s, what’s the German, the Germans you’ve met there, what’s their, been their reaction to this? Has it been favourable?
JG: I think they quite like the idea of their symbol of defiance being turned into a symbol of reconciliation.
DK: Reconciliation.
JG: That’s the theme I pedal. A symbol of reconciliation and I think of late we’ve had programmes showing us Germany and some of the bombing and some of the damage that was done and showing us the places and the people who were affected and being told their stories and, yeah. And I think they’ve been doing a lot on the Dambusters of course who were, became famous because of the wonderful film they made you know and playing with those bombs and it wasn’t until recently that I realised that Churchill was worried about the bombs that hadn’t gone off and that the Germans were able to examine and began making a list of the dams in the -
DK: UK.
JG: In the UK that they could bomb. Yes. Yes. So you learn these things eventually that you didn’t know at the time but I do think that if you get that spirit going among the public that they will not, they will defy you, you’ve lost it. Yeah. You’ve lost it.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yes.
DK: And did you meet many Germans who were there at the time, when you went out there?
JG: No. I haven’t. No.
DK: Ok.
JG: No. Of course I rely on Gerlinde as my interpreter because I’ve only got a few words -
DK: Oh right.
JG: In German.
DK: So scrape by on -
JG: She can speak German then.
DK: Yes. She’s a Bavarian. Yes.
JG: Oh I see. Right. She’s, right, ok. She’s German.
DK: So -
JG: Or Bavarian I should say.
DK: Yes she would say she’s a Bavarian.
JG: Bavarian.
DK: Yes. Quite right. She’s not German. She’s Bavarian. I’ve made that mistake before.
JG: Yeah. So -
DK: Ok. I think I’ll stop there.
JG: Yes.
DK: It seems a sensible place to stop so thanks very much for that. We’ve been talking for nearly an hour.
JG: It’s been a pleasure anyway. Yes. Yes.
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AGrayCJ151017
Title
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Interview with Jeff Gray
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:57:16 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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David Kavanagh
Date
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2015-10-17
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff Gray was a farm labourer in Aberdeenshire when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He trained to fly in Texas and completed 30 operations as a pilot with 61 Squadron. After leaving the RAF he worked for BOAC flying Yorks and VC10s.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
United States
France--Mailly-le-Camp
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
61 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
civil defence
crewing up
Halifax
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
pilot
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Scarecrow
searchlight
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/337/3501/PTaylorEC1701.1.jpg
acbcb633c679d09f01c94a0f7e54d530
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/337/3501/ATaylorEC170928.2.mp3
9a15f4d3f4e54369b0747cf28be0b8eb
Dublin Core
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Title
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Taylor, Eric
Eric Charles Taylor
Eric C Taylor
E C Taylor
E Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Squadron Leader Eric Charles Taylor.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Taylor, EC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Squadron Leader Eric Taylor at his home on the –
BT: Where are we?
DK: 28th of September 2017. So if I just put that there, put that that there –
ET: Yeah.
DK: Put that there. I’ll keep looking down, I’m just making sure that it’s working.
ET: Yes.
DK: That looks okay. So if we leave that, yeah that looks okay. Well, what I wanted to ask you first was what, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ET: School.
DK: Right, so you went straight from school to –
ET: I left school in the June forty-three –
DK: Mhm.
ET: Sorry, [pause] –
DK: It would be 1943 wouldn’t it?
ET: Yeah it is forty-three.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So you went straight from school, straight from school to the RAF?
ET: Yes.
DK: So what made you want to join the RAF then?
ET: Because I, I joined the, the LDV I think they called it –
DK: The Home Guard.
ET: The Local Defence Force.
DK: Mhm [BT laughs].
ET: And they put me through hours of drill [laughs], and I didn’t like that very much. I thought I’ll probably better join the Air Force, and you used to get all these magazines of course, you know, with all the things about the –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Battle of Britain and that type of thing. That’s what encouraged me to, to join. I went to Edinburgh for a testation [?] which was delayed for six months, so I actually went in, in the February –
DK: Is that on? Yeah, okay.
ET: Forty-three.
DK: Right. So –
ET: That was wrong, I told you –
DK: You’re right, it says forty-two in here.
ET: Must have been forty-two [emphasis].
DK: Right.
ET: Twenty, 1923 and something.
DK: That’s 1940 isn’t it? Okay, don’t worry, don’t worry.
ET: 1940.
DK: Yeah.
BT: 1940, you’d be seventeen.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Must have been forty-one then.
BT: Forty-one was it, okay.
ET: Left school.
BT: Yeah.
DK: So forty-one.
ET: Yeah, because it was forty-two –
DK: That you joined the Air Force.
ET: That I joined the Air Force.
DK: Yeah, yeah, okay.
ET: That’s right.
DK: You left school in 1941 and then joined the Air Force –
ET: Yeah.
DK: In 1942. So what, what was your first posting in the Air Force then? Where, where, can you remember where you went to?
ET: Well the first , well I went to London, and the – ooh we attended several lectures, you know, mainly about venereal disease [all laugh] and all the rest of the things.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And the, from then on I went up to, I trained at Staverton, Gloucestershire, Number Six AUS [?].
DK: Right.
ET: And that took about a year.
DK: So at this point you were already training as a navigator?
ET: Yeah, oh initially I did a small six hours course. I went in as a PNB.
DK: Right.
ET: Pilot, navigator or –
DK: Bomber aimer.
ET: Bomber aimer. Didn’t quite make the pilot stakes [?] so I became a navigator.
DK: Right.
ET: And then I went to the CUS [?]. That was the first straight navigator course, because before that they had the air observers, they called them.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Yeah, so we didn’t do any bombing aiming at that time. Course I went through them very quickly [emphasis], it only took about a year.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Then from there I went to Stratford-on-Avon to the OTU.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Operational training unit.
DK: Yeah. Just going, winding back a bit. What, what was the training as a, as a navigator? Were you actually flying [emphasis] at the time then?
ET: Yes, yes.
DK: So what sort of aircraft were you –
ET: Anson
DK: Ansons, right.
ET: Anson mainly. And then we came onto the Wellington when we came onto the OTU.
DK: The operational training unit.
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so that was Number 16 Operational Training Unit?
ET: That’s right.
DK: Yeah, and that was at RAF Upper Heyford?
ET: No.
DK: Oop, sorry.
ET: It’s at, it was at, it, just past Stratford-on-Avon.
DK: Stratford-on-Avon, right, okay.
ET: Yeah.
DK: So that’s 16 OTU at Stratford-on-Avon. And, and what aircraft were you training on there?
ET: Wellingtons.
DK: And is that where you met your, your crew then?
ET: Yeah. Well we all met [emphasis] –
DK: Mm.
ET: And just somebody would say, ‘would you like to fly with me?’ It was very, it wasn’t a rigid [?] thing at all, you know.
DK: No. So how did that work then? Were you all pushed into a hangar and you all had to work –
ET: Well we’re in a big hall, yeah, and the pilots were there and [laughs] –
DK: Right. How did you think that worked, ‘cause it’s quite unusual for the military. Normally you’re ordered to go somewhere.
ET: Well that’s right.
DK: This was quite an unusual way of where you –
ET: Yes.
DK: Picked your crew.
ET: Anyway, that’s how they did it and it seemed to work out there pretty well.
DK: And you found your, your pilot there then did you?
ET: Yes.
DK: And can you remember your pilot’s name?
ET: Yes, Cyril Pearce.
DK: Right.
ET: I think he’s no longer with us –
DK: Yeah.
ET: I don’t think any of the crew are with us now, you know.
DK: So you would have met your pilot?
ET: Yes.
DK: And –
ET: I met them all, the bomb aimer –
DK: Bomb aimer.
ET: And the wireless operator.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And the gunner.
DK: Mhm. And, and did you all get on well together when you –
ET: Yes, we seemed to, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Yeah. And I – the navigator didn’t do a lot of the pilot training on the aircraft, you know, the local flying circuits and mops and that.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But on the cross countries of course, we, we all went on those.
DK: Mm.
ET: Some had a dual instructor and others smaller [?].
DK: Yeah. What did you think of the Wellington as an aircraft?
ET: Actually quite good after the [laughs] – it was a bit bigger. The big thing I remember is – I think the model’s a 1-C that we trained on.
DK: Right.
ET: At the OTU, but then we got a mark three I think. ‘Cause we took an aeroplane out with us when we went to Tunisia.
DK: Right.
ET: And that was a long flight.
DK: Mm.
ET: We had to go miles out to sea to avoid the Bay of Biscay, you know, ‘cause all the Germans –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: Were there, and we flew from Portreath to a place called Ras el Ma –
DK: Right.
ET: On the west coast of Africa. The big thing I remember there was there was always an enormous amount of flies [DK and ET laugh]. You had a plate of soup, had a quick swipe [DK laughs], put your spoon in quickly [laughs]. And from there we just, we went on through Blida and then ended up at the Kairouan.
DK: Right.
ET: With aircraft – 142 Squadron and 150 had both just gone there. There was nothing, there were no facilities at all. There wasn’t even a latrine initially [laughs].
DK: So, so out your training then, you’ve done the operational training unit and really cross country flights around England.
ET: That’s it.
DK: And then your posted to your squadron and you’re posted out to Africa.
ET: Yes [emphasis].
DK: Oh right.
ET: Actually we just cleared [?] Africa, North Africa. Well we arrived there –
DK: Right.
ET: And when I was, we were there, we had the invasion of Sicily of course.
DK: Mm.
ET: And Italy. And most of our bombing were, they were to, you know, targets in Sicily.
DK: Right.
ET: And several, going up the coast to Italy.
DK: Right, and this was with 142 Squadron?
ET: 142 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So can you remember how many operations you did in the Middle East and Italy?
ET: Yes I, thirty.
DK: Thirty [emphasis]? Oh right.
ET: That was a tour then.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And I came back to UK. Oh I went with a journey from Tunis to Algiers –
DK: Mm.
ET: By train, and on the carriage I’ll always remember it said, ‘forty orm [?] or five [laughs], what were they, sivar [?] horses’ [ET and DK laugh]. Took five days, the journey, and then you got on a boat, came back to Liverpool.
DK: Right.
ET: This was at the end of forty-three –
DK: Uh-huh.
ET: And the – I thought I’d move to Scotland so I went all the way up to a place called Edsoff [?] where I used to live and the last bit I had to do by bus, you know, train then bus.
DK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ET: Then I met this girl on the bus and she said, ‘what are you doing?’ And I said, I said ‘I’m going home [emphasis], what did you think?’ She says ‘I think they’ve moved’ [laughs]. Ah, I had then to go and search where they’d gone to.
DK: And this was your family?
ET: That’s my family –
DK: They’d moved while you were away [laughs].
ET: My parents – well I didn’t get the letter of course to say they were moving.
DK: Oh of course.
ET: And they’d moved to Woodhall Spa would you believe.
DK: Oh right.
ET: In Lincolnshire.
DK: Yeah, yeah, know it well [DK and ET laugh]. So when you were in Africa then, your parents moved from Scotland –
ET: Yes.
DK: To Woodhall Spa.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And you didn’t, you didn’t know [laughs].
ET: Didn’t know.
DK: No. If I could just go back a bit, your operations in the Middle East. Did you find navigating something that came to you easily or –
ET: Quite difficult.
DK: Difficult? Right, because –
ET: Actually, we did have one, one navigation error which a very lucky to get away with it in many respects because coming back from Italy, we hit this land [emphasis] and I thought it was the north coast of Africa –
DK: Right.
ET: It turned out to be the north coast of Sicily [emphasis], going along.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And, course there’s some very high mountains there. Our signaller, our wireless operator finally got a , what we’d call a QDM –
DK: Mm.
ET: You know, a course to steer.
DK: Yeah.
ET: So we turned on that. Of course we’re getting short of fuel and all sorts of things, and we threw out the guns onto the turret to make the aircraft lighter, and coasted at quite a low altitude –
DK: Mm.
ET: Thinking of the mountains there –
DK: Yeah.
ET: And landed , there was an emergency airfield right on the tip of, which we landed at.
DK: On Sicily?
ET: No, no, in North Africa.
DK: Oh North Africa was it, right.
ET: Right at the top there.
DK: Right, oh right.
ET: So that was a real bit of luck there.
DK: Did you, did you get into any trouble for navigating?
ET: Not really.
DK: No, good [DK and ET laugh].
ET: What I remember is my pilot got in trouble because there was a taxi accident.
DK: Right.
ET: That’s the worst thing that can be done, you know. I think the wing hit it [unclear] on one and knocked [?] it up and twice, and I remember the station [?] commander at briefing for an operational trip. He’d see [?] pilots in front of him and say, ‘look at these men, traitors to the cause.’ I always remember that.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Terrible thing to say really.
DK: Bit harsh isn’t it?
ET: They felt bad enough as it is.
DK: Yeah. And one of those, one of those was your pilot was it?
ET: Yes [emphasis].
DK: Stood up – so he had to stand in front of everybody and get told off?
ET: Well there was three of them.
DK: Three of them, right.
ET: Yes, two’s [?] being blamed for the trip, you know –
DK: Yeah.
ET: That night. And this came out.
DK: Oh dear. It’s not very good is it? [Laughs].
ET: Very unsympathetic.
DK: No. Were commanding officers like that then? Were they a bit tough?
ET: This is a copy, what’s it? [Papers shuffle]. Is there something in there called “Blida’s Bombers?” A book. Oh yeah, it’s about him.
DK: Oh right.
ET: There’s something in [papers shuffle, pause]. All this mail, that’s Kairouan [laughs].
DK: Right. Just for the recording, it’s a magazine or a pamphlet called “Blida’s Bombers.” B-L-I-D-A, Blida. That’s, that’s in Algiers isn’t it?
ET: That’s right.
DK: [Unclear].
ET: That was a big base, as the Army. We started going in with the first army –
DK: Right.
ET: [Unclear].
DK: I actually went there many years ago, to Blida in Algiers. And just for the recording, this is “Blida’s Bombers” by Eric M. Summers. Did you know Eric M. Summers?
ET: No.
DK: No, no.
ET: But there was a Group Captain Powel, his photograph was in there which I was trying to, to find.
DK: Right.
ET: He was a man that –
DK: Oh, Group Captain Powel –
ET: Yeah.
DK: Here he is.
ET: Yeah, but there’s a picture of him with his –
DK: That’s in there.
ET: Fly [?]. He always used to fly [laughs].
DK: So he was your commanding officer was he?
ET: He was the station commander actually –
DK: Station commander, right.
ET: Group captain, yeah.
DK: And was it him who told your –
ET: Yes.
DK: The three pilot off?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Well that’s for the recording then, Group Captain Powell [laughs]. Ah there he is, there is he is.
ET: That’s him.
DK: Yeah.
ET: That’s exactly with his – yeah.
DK: Oh, so just for the recording here. It’s Group Captain Powell, briefing for Radan Recina [?]. And it looks like he’s got a fly swat there.
ET: That’s right. He always used that as a pointer [DK and ET laugh].
DK: He looks like he must have been a bit of a character. Oh wow.
ET: Quite a forceful –
DK: Forceful, I can imagine [?].
ET: Yeah.
DK: So there’s the Wellingtons –
ET: Probably [unclear], that’s him, yeah.
DK: You were flying.
ET: Yes, yeah.
DK: So this is all – the book itself is about the Tunis campaign then?
ET: What I can remember is when we got later [?], the power, the whole, the whole instruments used to shake and [laughs].
DK: [Unclear] my phone’s on. Sorry about that. So you got Noel Coward’s poem [?] there, ‘lie in the dark and listen.’
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah, ah. So while you were in North Africa then and you’re bombing targets in Italy, were you, was your aircraft ever hit at all or, can you recall?
ET: Er, not really. Should they call it sometimes [?], few peppered.
DK: Right.
ET: But nothing direct.
DK: Nothing serious.
ET: Direct hit.
DK: So you never got attacked by German aircraft –
ET: No.
DK: At all?
ET: No.
DK: Right. So what did you, what sort of targets were you hitting there in –
ET: Mostly airfields.
DK: Mostly airfields.
ET: There, [papers shuffle] here you are –
DK: Right.
ET: I don’t have the – oh [unclear]. That’s how we got there.
DK: Right okay, so that’s, for the recording here, that’s your logbook.
ET: That’s my logbook, yeah.
DK: So –
ET: Number one.
DK: Your pilot then is Pearce.
ET: Yes.
DK: Sergeant Pearce, and you’re the navigator down on here.
ET: We’re all sergeants –
DK: You’re all sergeants, right.
ET: At the time. There was very few, very few commissioned there on the squadron.
DK: Right, so the whole crew was sergeants then?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so from the logbook then, so you’ve gone from Portreath to Ra –
ET: Ras el Ma.
DK: El Ma. Ras el Ma to Blida.
ET: That’s right.
DK: Then Blida to Kairouan.
ET: Kairouan.
DK: And I’ll spell that for the recording. It’s K-A-I-R-O-U-A-N. And so your base was Maison Blanche?
ET: No the base was Kairouan.
DK: Kairouan was it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Right okay.
ET: It looks as though someone must have taken an aeroplane or something up there.
DK: Oh right [something pings in background].
ET: And I don’t know how we came back but it –
DK: Right. So you’ve done operations then to Nissena [?] –
ET: Yeah.
DK: And that’s in a Wellington, 19th of June 1943. So Nissena [?] seems to be a regular target, hmm. So Nissena [?], Italian airfield, Syracuse.
ET: Syracuse, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Masala [?].
DK: So quite a number of – so you said you did thirty operations there in North Africa?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Hmm, the Nissena beaches I noticed [page turns]. So what were the, what were the briefings like in North Africa? Were you sort of in a tent and – what were the facilities like?
ET: Yes, was all under canvas, the whole thing. The food was corned beef –
DK: Yeah.
ET: For everything. In fact, I got an attack of jaundice –
DK: Oh right.
ET: Through that. I went into hospital and they gave me tinned fruit –
DK: Rivht.
ET: And I thought this was a most wonderful thing to, to get. In fact, there was a big American camp near us and they – we used to trade whiskey [DK laughs] for tinned fruit –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: You know, that they had.
DK: [Tape moved] I’m not sure that that’s such a good spot now [laughs].
BT: No.
ET: Not now [laughs].
DK: Not now, no. Oh right.
ET: I suppose thank goodness for corned beef otherwise the [laughs] –
DK: So at, at the briefings then, presumably you’re sort of sat down and told what the target – were you told what the targets were?
ET: Told what the target is, yes.
DK: Right. So in North Africa, were they mostly military targets, airfields and –
ET: Yes.
DK: I noticed here you’ve got here [reading from logbook]: ‘30th of September 1943, ops. Port engine caught fire on takeoff [emphasis].’ Do you remember that?
ET: Not really [both laugh].
DK: Well it says you landed okay after twenty-five minutes.
ET: Yeah we always – obviously we’d have just gone –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Round and there –
DK: And landed again.
ET: And landed again.
DK: So then you’ve had, got several places in Italy then. I noticed you’ve got Pisa is one, ops to Pisa.
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah [paper turns].
ET: I remember the vehicles [?], I remember we were on that night, bobbing and the beaches, you know, before the army got in.
DK: So that’s 142 Squadron then, and you’ve done two hundred and forty-two hours, fifteen minutes operations then.
ET: Is that the end?
DK: Yeah that’s the end there, yeah.
ET: Yeah [page turns].
DK: So you’ve, you’ve come back to the UK then, you’ve come back to England. What, where –
ET: I was an instructor then.
DK: Right [laughs].
ET: Or so – we didn’t have half the instrumentation that the UK aircraft had.
DK: Right.
ET: So it was like an idiot teaching an idiot really [laughing], until we got used to –
DK: Right. So you, you went onto training then did you? You were –
ET: Yes.
DK: Right.
ET: It, I did a year –
DK: Right.
ET: Mainly at a place called Barford St. John –
DK: Right.
ET: Which is not far from Oxfordshire. Oh it’s about three miles away from, what’s the name of the town [pause], starts with a B I think.
DK: Bedford?
BT: Bicester?
DK: Bicester?
BT: Bicester, yeah?
ET: B – well down that way, yeah.
DK: Right. And that was in Oxfordshire was it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Right.
ET: And then the –
DK: So what, what aircraft were you flying doing the training there?
ET: Wellingtons.
DK: Wellingtons again, and that, you said they were better equipped than the ones you were flying in the Middle East?
ET: Yes [DK laughs]. There’s a thing in navigation called G [emphasis] –
DK: Yes.
ET: Which we didn’t have out there, you know. It was a wonderful aid, very accurate –
DK: Mm.
ET: But I had to learn [laughs], I had to learn that, you see, when I came back .
DK: So although you were training people, you yourself didn’t know –
ET: Well [laughs].
DK: Oh right.
ET: You know radio, you know, out there, about thirty-five miles was the range of our radio. You know –
DK: Mm.
ET: If you did want to call our base [laughs] –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You had to be within thirty-five miles of it.
DK: So not very far then?
ET: Not very far at all, no.
BT: Banbury, it was.
DK: Banbury.
ET: Banbury [emphasis] was the place –
BT: I just looked it up.
ET: Yeah sorry, Banbury, Banbury’s where – it was just outside Banbury. And anyway, at the end of the year they changed from Wellingtons to Mosquitos.
DK: Right, okay.
ET: So I just stayed there and did the course, met the pilot. He was a very good pilot. He, when he finished training in Canada they kept him on as an instructor.
DK: Right. So you’ve come – I slightly misread this earlier and I want – for the benefit of the tape, your initial training was at Number Six Air Observation School at Staverton.
ET: That’s right.
DK: And then you went to 21 OTU, Morteon-in-the-Marsh.
ET: That’s correct.
DK: Then [emphasis] to North Africa.
ET: For operational training –
DK: Then to North Africa –
ET: North Africa.
DK: Sorry I misread this, with 142 Squadron.
ET: Yes.
DK: Which we’ve just covered.
ET: That’s correct.
DK: So you’ve come back then and you did a year’s training –
ET: Yes.
DK: Instructing, and that was at 16 OTU, Upper Heyford [?].
ET: Yes, that was the main base –
DK: Main base.
ET: But as I say, I spent it all at Barford –
DK: Right okay.
ET: St. John.
DK: Right. So then in early 1945 then, you’re now converted onto the Mosquito?
ET: That’s right.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name on the Mosquito?
ET: Yeah, Green, Dave Green.
DK: Dave Green.
ET: We didn’t have a – he was married, the chap in the, well obviously [unclear] he met a girl out there and married her, and so we didn’t spend a lot of social time together at all.
DK: Right.
ET: He didn’t drink at al so l [laughs].
DK: Was that quite unusual in the Air Force then? [Laughs].
ET: Well a bit. But yeah he was a good chap.
DK: Right. And would he have been a pilot officer or –
ET: He was a flight lieutenant.
DK: Flight lieutenant, right. So that’s Flight Lieutenant –
ET: I expect –
DK: Dave Green
ET: If you, if you finished top of your course –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You were normally commissioned, the top. So as he did well, kept him on as an instructor, I suspect he was –
DK: And you say he was an Australian?
ET: No, no, he was English.
DK: English, right okay. So, and you’re in the Mosquitos then. What did you think of the Mosquito as a aircraft?
ET: Oh it was great [laughs], with so much speed.
DK: Mm.
ET: Amazing aircraft because to carry that load, to carry one four thousand pound bomb, was like a big oil tank, you know.
DK: Mm, yeah.
ET: Oil drum, for the business. And course we’d overload tanks on the wings as well, so she was pretty heavy.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But it was wonderful. We used to bomb at twenty-five thousand feet.
DK: Right.
ET: And when the bomb went of course you shot up about three [DK and ET laugh], three hundred feet.
DK: And this was at 571 Squadron?
ET: 571, yeah.
DK: And –
ET: It was very short lived – each squadron, they were created [emphasis], you know, and of course the war, the war finished –
DK: Right.
ET: And they disappeared again.
DK: Can you remember, can you remember where you were based with 571?
ET: Yes, Oakington.
DK: Oakington, right okay.
ET: Which is a big –
DK: Housing estate now [BT laughs].
ET: Oh is it?
DK: Yeah, afraid so. It’s all been knocked down.
ET: But did it, did have all these refugee, I don’t know what they were, refugee centres?
DK: It was for while, yes.
ET: Yeah.
DK: It was a refugee centre –
ET: Yeah.
DK: After the war.
ET: Oh but, but I haven’t mentioned that I – when the war finished, they asked for volunteers to ferry the aircraft back from Canada.
DK: Oh right.
ET: SO I volunteered for that. I got out to Canada, went out by boat, and they said ‘oh you’re not wireless trained’ [laughs].
DK: Mm.
ET: ‘So you can’t do that.’ So I ended up doing about thirty hours in Dakotas.
DK: Oh right [DK and ET laugh].
ET: And I was there for about three months, and came back in a BUAC [?] Liberator.
DK: Right.
ET: [Laughs] to Prestwick, I remember that.
DK: Just, just going back a little bit to your time in the Mosquitos.
ET: Yes.
DK: Can you remember how many operations you did on Mosquitos?
ET: Yes, I did twenty.
DK: Right, so that was thirty operations, Wellingtons in North Africa –
ET: Yes.
DK: And another twenty –
ET: When we were operating on the Mosquito, we had sort of two nights on and one night off.
DK: So what was your role with the Mosquito, because you weren’t really flying with the main Bomber force were you? Were you separate to them?
ET: Well, it was diversionary [emphasis] normally. We went to targets to make them think that the –
DK: Right.
ET: Main force was going there. You had your sneaky little – I went to Berlin thirteen times [laughs].
DK: Right. What was it like flying over Berlin?
ET: Well it’s quite, quite intense. The flak was, you know, they had these predictions, the marshal [?] –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Predicting –
DK: Predicting flak –
ET: You’re very happy if you saw it bursting a bit beneath you, you know, thinking ‘oh they haven’t got it right.’
DK: Mm.
ET: And they had these incredible searchlights, and a marshal would come on you, and then all the sleeves [?] [unclear]. It’s a really lovely feeling [laughs] being all lit up at night.
DK: So when that happened, what did your pilot do? Did he –
ET: He couldn’t do much at all really –
DK: Right.
ET: For that. Because with that height, you know, it would take a long way to –
DK: To get out the searchlight. So you’re, you’re being fired on all the time while you’re in the searchlights?
ET: Well, you might be or you might not, you know. It didn’t – we had a little indicator on the aircraft, a light it was, which was supposed to switch on if you were being attacked.
DK: Yeah. So you, did you fly out with a number of other Mosquitos?
ET: Yes.
DK: And could you see them at night, or –
ET: Well that’s the amazing thing is, there’s all these aircraft together –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You suddenly see, if another one gets lit up by the searchlights you think, ‘I didn’t realise he was there,’ you know.
DK: Mm.
ET: You were like a loose formation I think, you weren’t in flying formation.
DK: Right, so you never saw other aircraft then?
ET: Not very often.
DK: So your role was then, the main force would go off to one target and you’d attack somewhere else to, to draw –
ET: Yes.
DK: Their defences there –
ET: Yes.
DK: Presumably.
ET: Of course, we had the Pathfinders.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Who would – now this, well a secret as it was at the time, called Oboe.
DK: Mhm.
ET: And they used to drop on that, and this thing was amazing. Two different aircraft flares go down, you go down one on top of the other. You’d think it was out of one aircraft, you know.
DK: Right.
ET: This was getting towards the end and –
DK: So when you saw these two flares go down, what was your, what did you have to do then?
ET: Well, I’d, it would tell you, or, if it was some apart [?] it would tell you which one to go for. Well, I had to get down into the bomb bay, and, well about ten, you had a ten minute run in when you had to stay rock steady, you know, and I had to get down into the front and set up the bomb, bomb site.
DK: Right.
ET: ‘Cause one night, an incident was that I got down there and I wasn’t making sense about it to my pilot, and he was very quick at knocking my oxygen off [laughs].
DK: Oh.
ET: And he quickly catched on what was wrong and put the switch –
DK: Right.
ET: Back on.
DK: So he switched the oxygen off then, right.
ET: Yeah just getting, getting down into the – I had a harness [?] on, you know –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Just to –
DK: So, so although you were navigating then, on the Mosquitos you actually acted as a bomb aimer as well then did you?
ET: Yes, I did both jobs.
DK: Right.
ET: Yes, I did a small bombing course with a Mosquito conversion. We did a course on –
DK: Right.
ET: With Oxfords [emphasis] it was this time, which was a training aircraft.
DK: Mm.
ET: Used to bomb in the Wash.
DK: Mm.
ET: You know, the target.
DK: Yeah.
ET: The Wash.
DK: Yeah, so, so you said you went to Berlin thirteen –
ET: I think it was about thirteen –
DK: Thirteen times.
ET: Times if you –
DK: So for the recording, I’m looking at the logbook again so, so 1st of March 1945, Mosquito. You’ve gone from ops to Erfurt, E-R-F-U-R-T.
ET: Erfurt, yeah.
DK: So you’ve got one four thousand pound bomb.
ET: That’s a bomb we carried, just one.
DK: And then 3rd of March forty-five, Wurzburg, one four thousand pound bomb again.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And then it says here Berlin on the 5th of March, the 7th of March, 9th of March, 11th of March, 13th of March. So every other day there for about a week, you were going to Berlin.
ET: Yeah.
DK: So each time it’s one four thousand pound bomb. So those trips to Berlin, can you recall, were those diversional then, or part of a, a main attack on Berlin?
ET: I, I don’t think it was a main attack because we didn’t see other aeroplanes there really.
DK: Right, so the main force has gone off somewhere else?
ET: It’s more a nuisance, you know, morale type thing I think –
DK: Right.
ET: On that.
DK: So you’re also going out there then to, not as diversions as such but to just keep the defences alert?
ET: Keep it going, yeah.
DK: So then 15th of March, Erfurt again [page turns]. [Laughs], and then here 21st of March, Berlin, 23rd of March, Berlin and the 24th of March, Berlin [page turns]. Think the people in Berlin must have got a bit fed up of you turning up [all laugh]. So your, and it says here, so the same pilot, Flight Lieutenant –
ET: Yes.
DK: Is it, was it Dave Green? Dave, Dave Green, was it? Green?
ET: Dave Green, yeah.
DK: Dave Green. And just reading for the recording here –
ET: Yes.
DK: So 4th of April, Magdeburg, and then 8th of April, Berlin, 10th of April, Berlin, 12th of April, Berlin [BT laughs], 13th of April, I’ll spell this out for the recording. It’s S-T-R-A-L-S-U-N-I, or S-U-N-D, Stralsund I think it is. 17th of April, Berlin, 20th of April, Berlin again, 23rd of April, Flensburg [page turns]. So the end must be coming to an end here then. And finally, 25th of April, a power station at Munich.
ET: That’s right, that was the last one.
DK: Mm.
ET: It, I had a son out there [laughs].
DK: Right.
ET: He worked with the, what’s it called, you know, the –
BT: Eurofighter.
ET: Eurofighter.
DK: Oh right, oh okay.
BT: After the war you want to add [DK and BT laugh].
ET: After the war, oh yes.
DK: Yes.
ET: But I said, ‘I probably passed this part,’ I said, ‘I probably bombed [emphasis] that part’ [all laugh].
BT: Yeah.
DK: So years later, your son was working on the Eurofighter in Europe?
ET: He was in the Eurofighter, yeah.
DK: So can I, if I just add those up [page turns]. Where are we, that’s Berlin. One, two, three, four, five [page turns], six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen. Yes as you say, thirteen.
ET: That was –
DK: So out of those twenty operations in Mosquitos, thirteen of them were to Berlin.
ET: Yeah.
DK: And your trips to Berlin, it’s obviously quite a long way. I mean, are you fired on all the way or is it mostly quite dark and quiet?
ET: Bits and pieces.
DK: Mm.
ET: Sometimes flak would come up, you know, you could see it at – you just hoped they hadn’t predicted you, your height.
DK: Hmm. But in a Mosquito you’re a lot higher than another aircraft.
ET: Twenty-five.
DK: Mm, twenty-five thousand feet.
ET: We were, and sometimes we used to get to thirty coming back, you know.
DK: And can you recall, were you ever attacked by German aircraft at all?
ET: Not that I know of.
DK: No.
ET: No.
DK: So as you’re, as you’re approaching the target then, you’ve got down into the –
ET: I get down into the, the bomb bay –
DK: So –
ET: And set up the wind and that –
DK: Yeah.
ET: On the – in fact, so that we could keep together more of the navigation, you’re trying to navigation –
DK: Yeah, yeah.
ET: The leading aircraft might pass back the wind, so as we’re all using the same wind to, to part [?] with our drift and that –
DK: Right.
ET: So as we’d keep –
DK: ‘Cause presumably wind change can really affect your navigation?
ET: Oh yeah, well effects your drift and everything you see, so if you get different winds you could be offsetting differently.
DK: Right, what was it like, if I can ask – you’d obviously have a briefing beforehand –
ET: Yes.
DK: And, and this is in the building at Oakham. What were your feelings like when you saw what your target was going to be?
ET: Well you think –
DK: Presumably they have curtains and they put it back and –
ET: Well they tell you where it is. Oh, the routine was, you take the aircraft up for an air test –
DK: Right.
ET: Up there about fifteen minutes, see it’s alright in the morning, and then, this being the morning, then the afternoon you would go to briefing. Told you where it was, you had to make charts up, you know –
DK: What was your thoughts when you saw Berlin again? Were you –
ET: [Laughs] yeah, ‘can’t you find somewhere else to’ –
DK: So you now know the target, so you’re now doing your charts presumably as the navigator?
ET: Yeah.
DK: So you’re, you’re told the winds and –
ET: Got to put a tracking of where we’re going and that, all these sort of things. Oh yeah, you get briefed by the MET officer of the winds and the weather.
DK: Mhm.
ET: And after that, you had a meal, and then you went back. The worst thing I found was you went back to your billet and then you’d devour [?] away these hours –
DK: Right.
ET: Until, ‘cause it’s always at night of course, you know, until you’re ready for takeoff.
DK: So it came as a bit of a relief then, when you got to the aircraft to takeoff?
ET: Oh yeah, once you get going, you’re too busy really to think about anything else, provided you didn’t swing. It was quite a nasty aircraft to swing in on takeoff –
DK: Mm.
ET: Mosquito, you know, the propellers going the same direction –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Until they got the tail up for a bit of –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Control.
DK: And your pilot then, Dave Green, was he a good pilot?
ET: Yes [emphasis]. But just as I say, he was a quiet chap so I didn’t really see much of him –
DK: Right.
ET: Apart from work which, which was fine [laughs].
DK: But did you – I’m presuming you’d have to work well [emphasis] together then.
ET: Oh yes.
DK: So you worked well together?
ET: Yeah.
DK: We’ve covered what you did over the targets, so you’ve come back after the operation and your landing. How did you feel then as you got back?
ET: Relieved once you got down but of course you’re coming back, you’re all coming back together aren’t you? In these airfield, the seconds [?] they overlapped.
DK: Yeah.
ET: So it was a bit dodgy at times. We landed once at the wrong airport [laughs].
DK: Really?
ET: You know, the wrong way, direction was the same.
DK: Yeah.
ET: We ended up at Wyton [laughs].
DK: Right.
ET: Anyway, they just briefed us and, and that was it. I think we took off in the morning to get back to base [DK and ET laugh].
DK: So you, once you’ve landed then, what’s the procedures then?
ET: Oh you go for a briefing.
DK: Right, a debriefing [emphasis].
ET: De –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Debriefing.
DK: And, and who would take that?
ET: Intelligence.
DK: Mm.
ET: Officers.
DK: Mm, and what sort of questions did they ask?
ET: Did you hit the target, did you think you hit the target?
DK: Right.
ET: We used to take a, a film [emphasis]. Some were better than others, you know –
DK: Mm.
ET: Of the target area and when it happened.
DK: So a photo would be taken when you –
ET: A photo when you pressed the plunger for, to release the bomb a photograph would be taken –
DK: Oh right.
ET: A little later.
DK: Right. So you’ve got back then and you’ve got feelings of relief. What happened then, you just went to bed?
ET: No.
DK: Ah.
ET: Went for a meal.
DK: Right, okay [DK and ET laugh].
ET: And a beer.
DK: Mm.
ET: And a few beers [DK laughs], otherwise I never slept really, you know.
DK: Right.
ET: It’s all night [?], but oh, it was a relief [emphasis] –
DK: Mm.
ET: Really. I mean we were very lucky in the Mosquito, we didn’t have near the number of losses –
DK: Mm.
ET: That the – the loss that I saw, well, the loss that I saw was at – one aircraft completed [?], he was up on his air test and of course he came and tried to beat up the, what we called the flight hock [?] [emphasis], you know, where our ground crew were.
DK: Yep.
ET: And these, these overload tanks in the wing. He hit a tree and knocked one tank off, and the aircraft just [unclear].
DK: Cartwheeled.
ET: I watched this –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Just rolling [emphasis].
DK: Yeah.
ET: And it went straight in the front of the, the sick quarters.
DK: Mm.
ET: That was a complete waste of lives. Another accident we had was at the – one chap lost an engine and he came roaring in far too fast. Oh no sorry, he spun [emphasis] in and of course, they were killed. It happened a second time to another person, and he thought ‘I’m not going to stall’ [laughs], so he came rolling in too fast and [taps four times] wasn’t able to stop at the far end. And then the disciplinary thing at Sheffield, so they sent them to Sheffield. [Unclear] fly –
DK: Right.
ET: But just for discipline [laughs].
DK: But at least he survived that one.
ET: He survived that one, yeah.
DK: But got into trouble for it, yeah. Okay that’s, that’s great. Just ask you, after all these years how do you look back at your time in, in Bomber Command? How do you look back on that?
ET: I don’t really look back on it all that much nowadays.
DK: Mm.
ET: I think – well I was occupied, of course seeing an Air Force and getting in transport we had the Berlin Airlift –
DK: Right.
ET: For a year.
DK: So you got involved with the Berlin Airlift then did you?
ET: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, so –
ET: I did three hundred lifts on that.
DK: Oh right. So you’ve, let, you’ve – so just reading here, that’s three hundred and two lifts –
ET: Yeah.
DK: To Berlin.
ET: That took a year.
DK: And, and what aircraft were you flying?
ET: York.
DK: Right, the Avro York. So what, what was Berlin like when you, you went there after the war?
ET: Oh they were very, very grateful that we’re keeping away from the Russians I think was a big thing, you know, there.
DK: Mm. ‘Cause it’s, it’s kind of strange ‘cause one moment you’re dropping bombs [BT laughs] and then the next –
ET: Three years later, yeah.
DK: You’re giving them food.
ET: That’s right. It’s amazing when people have nothing, you know. If anybody had a bar of soap or something like that –
DK: Mm.
ET: It was like a gold [emphasis] to them, you know.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Things like that.
DK: So what kind of stuff were you carrying in the Avro Yorks then?
ET: Oh you name it, everything.
DK: Food and –
ET: There was coal.
DK: Right.
ET: Actually the aircraft – I forget they were a lot heavier when they finished, it was all this coal dust.
DK: Mm.
ET: They erm, hay for horses, all the natural stuff that people eat.
DK: Right.
ET: Anything like that.
DK: So flying into Berlin then, did you have to stick to certain routes or –
ET: Yes –
DK: ‘Cause you’re flying over –
ET: The Northern – we used to go up north and then go down from a northern corridor, and come back at a centre corridor.
DK: Right.
ET: ‘Cause basically, Onsturfrun [?]
DK: So you went to Onsturfrun Gateaux [?].
ET: Onsturfrun [?] to Gateaux [?] yeah, yeah that’s right.
DK: Right.
ET: And –
DK: So they’re just continuous flights then, going –
ET: Yeah.
DK: In the northern route and coming out the southern route.
ET: Oh it was a shambles in this case. We had lots of different speed aircraft, you know. There was, there was Yorks, there was the Dakotas –
DK: Mm.
ET: Valettas, and what was happening, supposed to go off on waves but one wave was [laughs] overtaking the other wave, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: And things like that. It’s amazing there weren’t more accidents than there were, but after they got it settled it worked very well. You just went along, you got in. If you missed, if you couldn’t get in you came straight back, you didn’t, you couldn’t go round again, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: To Gateaux [?]I mean.
DK: So you, you had to land first time?
ET: You had to land, that’s right.
DK: Yeah.
ET: But it worked very well. And we went down to two lifts. Initially we had to do three lifts. It was a tremendously long day ‘cause you had to wait for the aircraft to get ready and complete your three lifts.
DK: Mm.
ET: That was it, but they put it down to two [emphasis] so we did a night shift or a day –
DK: Yeah.
ET: Day shift. It was well organised towards the end.
DK: Was it easier for you as a navigator, doing that then, because they –
ET: Oh I didn’t do very – there wasn’t very much navigation at all.
DK: Right.
ET: For – you just, it was a corridor, you know –
DK: Right.
ET: And took me an hour coming back ‘cause you flew over quite a bit of Russian territory coming in.
DK: Mm.
ET: The only, the odd fighter used to come and have a look at you [laughs]. Think ‘I hope you go away again,’ you know.
DK: Oh right [ET laughs]. So after that then, you’ve remained with transport and –
ET: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Just looking, so you were in Valettas, Varsitys, the Beverlys?
ET: Yes.
DK: So that was, you went out to Aden then, and –
ET: Yes.
DK: And Iran? Yes.
ET: Yeah, did two years in Aden.
DK: Was that during the conflict out there or –
ET: There, there was a bit of conflict –
DK: Yeah.
ET: But [coughs] there was a lot of trouble in – what do you call that country?
DK: Yemen?
ET: Yemen.
DK: Yemen, yeah and Aden, Aden is Yemen I think, isn’t it? Oman?
ET: There’s another one I think, further east.
DK: Right. So, so what were you doing there? Was it supplying –
ET: Oh just loads of [?] – it was wonderful, a place called Macierz [?] –
DK: Mm.
ET: Which was about eight thousand feet high, and from Aden was very steamy, you know [laughs], and you get up there, your stockings fall down because it’s so dry up there.
DK: Yeah.
ET: Byt they’ve got stuff in there you didn’t know if you could get before, you know.
DK: No.
ET: Like quite big trucks and that type of thing.
DK: So what was, what was the Beverley [emphasis] like as an aircraft then? They’re quite big, quite bulky things aren’t they?
ET: Oh dear [DK laughs]. It was slow [emphasis], it was noisy [emphasis]. In fact the navigator’s table used to be on an angle, you had to, you had to [tapping] flatten it and you had to [tapping], they tried to [?] bounce on it, you know [DK laughs]. And that had a fixed undercarriage, and if you got into icy conditions, these legs used to ice up which meant you even go slower [emphasis] than [DK and ET laugh]. But it had this great capability of short landing in –
DK: Yeah.
ET: In getting into these airfields, you know.
DK: So then you’ve gone onto the Britannia.
ET: That’s right.
DK: So what, what was the Britannia like?
ET: Oh it was lovely.
DK: Yeah
ET: Yeah, I did five years on.
DK: And what was that, mostly trooping flights was it? So whereabouts did you use to go to?
ET: All over the place [coughs]. Did a lot to Norway because the commander was a not [?] – always went there from January to March –
DK: Mm.
ET: They go for their winter training –
DK: Right.
ET: So we’d lots of flights there and back. That was an adventure [?]. We had a lot of flights out to Woomera –
DK: Right.
ET: You know, the atomic –
DK: Oh right, the atomic bomb tests.
ET: It was a little box.
DK: Oh.
ET: Didn’t know what it was [DK and ET laugh]. But we used to go down to Adelaide.
DK: Probably best not to ask [all laugh].
ET: Well, quite a lot.
DK: Yeah.
ET: When all these tests were going on.
DK: Yeah.
ET: And just [coughs] –
DK: You, you didn’t witness any of the tests then did you?
ET: Oh no.
DK: No, no.
ET: We used to use an Edinburgh field recorder, it was a RAAF base. That went on quite a lot. We did trips to Singapore and back –
DK: Mhm.
ET: But when it first started, you know, there was no slipping [emphasis] crews –
DK: Yeah.
ET: You just had a – everyday it took five [emphasis] days to get to Singapore, you had two days off there and five days to come back. And I think what a waste of aircraft it was really [DK laughs]. I suppose we had so many we didn’t bother. That was on the Yorks [emphasis] then.
DK: Yeah [ET laughs]. So finally you’ve become ATS navigator instructor.
ET: That was on Belfasts.
DK: So you’re, you’ve – and then 53 Squadron on the Belfasts?
ET: That’s right.
DK: So, so what was the Belfast like as an aircraft?
ET: Oh it was nice, nice. Well lovely, very palatial for the crew.
DK: Mm.
ET: Just the pilots could get in from the outside of the aircraft into the seat, you know, being a big aircraft –
DK: Right.
ET: It was very palatial for the crew.
DK: So what sort of loads would you have on the Belfasts?
ET: All sorts, helicopters.
DK: Yeah?
ET: Tanks, just stuff like that.
BT: You took the Concord engines didn’t you as well? Concord engines.
ET: Oh I had a big, yeah. Oh my big flight was I went – we carried an engine for Concord once. It went on a world tour.
DK: Oh right.
ET: Well, went to Far East sales pitch. It never needed the engine [laughs].
DK: Right, so it was just a spare –
ET: But it was a few pictures somewhere of that. Is it in there [shuffling].
BT: Yeah that’s the one, that’s the Concord.
DK: Ah.
ET: There’s one with the tours [?] on.
BT: I’ll have a look [ET laughs].
DK: That’s the original prototype isn’t it?
ET: Yeah.
DK: DBSST.
ET: That’s right.
BT: Oh wow.
DK: Okay, so I’ll just finish this off. So you retired in 1978 as a squadron leader.
ET: That’s right.
DK: Ah.
ET: They eventually decided to promote me after [laughs] –
DK: So they promoted you just before you retired?
ET: Yes.
DK: Ah [laughs]. Okay, well I’ll stop that there because I’m conscious of you talking for a whole hour there, but thanks very much for that. I’ll switch that off now.
ET: Well –
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ATaylorEC170928
PTaylorEC1701
Title
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Interview with Eric Taylor
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:54:10 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Date
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2017-09-28
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Eric Taylor joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 and served as a navigator. He served in North Africa and completed a tour of operations against targets in Italy before becoming an instructor in England. He describes the differences in instrumentation between the North African and English aircraft, such as the Gee navigational aid. He flew nuisance and diversion operations in Mosquitos over places such as Wurzburg, Erfurt and Berlin thirteen times. He was involved in the Berlin Airlift and then spent a couple of years serving in Aden and the Middle East, and remained in the Air Force until 1978 when he retired as a squadron leader.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Algeria
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Tunisia
England--Cambridgeshire
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Râs el Ma
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Erfurt
Germany--Würzburg
Tunisia--Qayrawān
North Africa
Contributor
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Katie Gilbert
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1945
142 Squadron
16 OTU
571 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
civil defence
crewing up
Gee
Home Guard
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Oakington
RAF Upper Heyford
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/AStockerEE161013.2.mp3
a6ef8f8aef1748927c2931c8116ebbf3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. Make sure this is working OK.
ES: OK?
DK: I, I — you’re sometimes beaten by the technology. So, it’s David Kavanagh inter— interviewing Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker at his home on the 13th of October 2016. I’ll, I’ll just leave that there. If, if I keep looking down, I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s, it’s going.
ES: Er, I’m one of the lucky ones I suppose. If you’ve seen how many trips I’ve done, you’ll know I’m a lucky one.
DK: No, I’ve seen the statistics and they’re terrifying. It’s — they’re covered in your book obviously. What I wanted to ask you was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ES: I was in the Air Force. I was an apprentice at RAF Halton. I joined the Air Force in 1938, January ‘38, and I — when the war started, they — it should have been a three year apprenticeship but when the war started, they cut it down. They [cough], I did two years and three months I think, so I was a bit short, but they, to make up for the shortcomings, we lost our Wednesday afternoon sports and Thursday afternoon, er, Friday afternoon, um, drill so they stopped the apprenticeship short and gave us accelerated apprenticeship, so I came out. Oh dear, I was still an apprentice — I was an apprentice when the war started because I heard Mr — I was on church parade. We were at church, um, on the 3rd of September and, um, the padre cut his sermon short to say that Chamberlain was talking on, on the BBC and we would go back early so we could actually get in the NAAFI to hear the Chamberlain broadcast. Remember, in those days there wasn’t — radios were expensive but they were all batteries and batteries cost more than you earned in a week, so that’s why we had to use the, the NAAFI to hear the broadcast. Anyway, we heard this broadcast and we’re now at war, which was very good, nice to know [cough] because — as I’d just heard that news, I walked out of the NAAFI to go back to get my irons to go to the cookhouse to get some food and, um, the war had been on for a good ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, and there was a snotty little PTI corporal said, ‘You’re on a charge. You haven’t got your gas mask with you. Don’t you know there’s a war on? You’re supposed to be carrying your gas mask’. I hadn’t — there wasn’t a war on when I left the barrack room and that’s where I left my gas mask [slight laugh], so that was a good start to the war. Anyway, I carried on, er, 1940, in April, March or something, my, er, my apprenticeship was foreshortened and I was passed out as an aircraftman first class. When you’re an apprentice, you can pass out either as an AOC, which there was very few of them (I think in our entry there were two), and an AC1 which was the middle of the road and most of us did, and AC2 which was those who weren’t very bright. And there had — I had a very good posting really, I was posted to Boscombe Down. So, unlike most of the people, when they left their apprenticeship, they went to a squadron and whatever aircraft the squadron had that was the aircraft they worked on but, being lucky, and going to Boscombe I had all sorts of aeroplanes. We had the first prototype Stirling I, I worked on and we had all sorts of funny fighters we were getting. The RAF took over aircraft that the French had ordered but the Germans rather stopped the Americans delivering to them so we took over things like the Mohawk and things and, um, so I, I got into working as a fitter on all sorts of different aeroplanes and then I applied for — I went in to see the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like a pilot’s course’, and he said, ‘No, you can’t do a pilot’s course with AC1. You’ve got to be AOC before you can apply for a pilot’s course’. Anyway, I went back to work and did some — my trade test and became an AOC. I went back into the flight commander and said, ‘I’m an AOC now, can I have a pilot’s course?’ He said, ‘You’ve got to be an AOC for six months at least’. Unfortunately, five months later they made me a corporal, so now I can’t be a pilot because I’m too valuable but then the first of the four engine, as I say all those — I worked on the Stirling, the first of the four engine bombers, and, um, they came with an AMO. They wanted exceptional AOCs, corporals and sergeants and the fitters trades, fitter trades to become flight engineers because before the war, you didn’t have flight engineers because they didn’t have any four engine aircraft, apart from the Stirling, and so I thought — Stirling, Sunderland flying boat, and, um, so I thought well — I didn’t [slight laugh], I didn’t know about this AMO until the flight c—, um, the flight clerk came down — I was working on an aeroplane — with this bit of paper in his hand and said, ‘The flight commander thought you might like to read this’. It was the first, er, call for flight engineers and flight commander had his head in his hand on the right way. He thought that was the [unclear] tell about it so I went back with the flight commander, flight clerk to the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like to be a flight engineer’. Well, I got that, um, sort of got back to barracks, about — it must have been within forty-eight hours, they really were desperate, um, I was called back to the flight commander, given an hour warning, sent off to, off to — where was it in Scotland? Er, oh dear, just north of inverness, north-west from Inverness? I was off on a three week air gunner’s course. I didn’t want to be an air gunner, I wanted to be a flight engineer but, um, I did the three, this three week air gunner’s course, flying in some decrepit old airplanes, and I was then posted to 35 Squadron in Linton as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. I hadn’t done, apart from being a fitter and the three weeks’ air gunner course, I was now a flight engineer. Fortunately, at this, they got the crew but they hadn’t got the airplanes. Point of interest perhaps, my flight commander at that time was a guy called, er, Leonard Cheshire, Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire was my flight commander and —
DK: What were your feelings about Cheshire as a man?
ES: Well as a man [unclear], didn’t have a great understanding of aeroplanes, little or no knowledge of engineering but, um, he had the knack of flying the aeroplane. He could fly it quite well.
DK: Did you, did you fly with him at all?
ES: Only, er, local flying from the thing.
DK: And he was a competent pilot, was he?
ES: He was a — he seemed competent but a little bit slap happy. He talked myself and several other flight engineers, who were new to the squadron, up in the Halifax on a very nasty day in Yorkshire. We sort of took off straight into a cloud and he plugged into the intercom and said, ‘Now I’m running the engines on hot air because of the — to stop them icing up. I’m now going to switch two of them off onto cold air’. Of course, within about three minutes, they’d iced up and the engines had stopped. ‘Now you see what happens when you don’t use hot air’. Yes, I know but we’re flying in cloud at about three thousand feet somewhere over the Yorkshire Moors, no real radio, or any thought. It was a bit stupid. Stating the obvious.
DK: Was he a slightly eccentric man then?
ES: No, not slightly.
DK: No. OK. Completely [laugh].
ES: He was an academic from an academic background. I think he didn’t have a very high regard for engineers or any engineer, and, er, Paddy O’Kane was his flight engineer. He was an Irishman who kept — must have let his temper well under control.
DK: Were you, were you quite pleased to get down then after that flight?
ES: Oh, I wasn’t that — it was interesting. I thought I was too young to be too worried, I just didn’t like it. It knew it wasn’t the right thing to be doing [slight laugh] and, er, I messed about on the squadron there. As I said we were very short of aeroplanes, plenty of crews, there about three flight engineers to every engine, every aeroplane. But I just went back, a lot of us went back to working on the flights as a fitter, ordinary fitter again. And, um, I went there I think Ap— March or April ‘40. It wasn’t until October that I got a crew with an aeroplane, joined a crew and started operating over Germany. I wasn’t very impressed when we did start. We were supposed to be bombing Essen at night, and we — in those days they had very little in the way of range. When they dropped the bombs, I wasn’t that impressed. I said, ‘How –?’ I looked out and I couldn’t see how the hell they knew where they were, and listening to the navigator talking to the pilot, I don’t think he had that much of an idea. It was a very hit and run, well hit and miss, mainly miss, flying in the first few months of the war or the first few months when I started flying. But I, er, what did I do? Oh yes, I know. Early on, with the flight commander, by saying, briefing us for our second trip, ‘We’re going to Nuremberg#. It was rather a long way to Nuremberg from Yorkshire, particularly when we were flying in the early Halifaxes, which did not have as many fuel tanks as the later ones and I, being a sort of awkward bloke, I knew what fuel load we’d got and I had a chat with the navigator, he was another sergeant so I could talk to him, got the air miles and the fuel load and I did some sums. We haven’t got enough money to — enough fuel to get there and back let alone have a reserve and anyway, still being young and cheeky, I said to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Well, they didn’t. We came back and I was keeping the throttles closed as much as I could, getting the best air miles out of it. We actually could see the airfield and when we crashed, we were almost within walking distance of the airfield [slight laugh].
DK: You just literally ran out of fuel?
ES: Yeah. Well, we ran out on one — because we were low, I was running, um, each side’s engines on all the tanks in that wing and, um, two engines stopped on one side, so I went down the back and put a cross feed on, um, and so I ran four engines off an empty tank but —
DK: So was anybody hurt in the crash or —
ES: Er, no. When we were sort of getting organised I, I‘d dumped the escape hatches over myself, the pilot and myself, and I was actually on — the skipper had started to bail the crew out. There should have been only two of us left in the aeroplane at that stage but the engines finally ran out of fuel and stopped and, er, we went down, hit the ground on a rather nasty bump, bounced over one hedge and landed in the next field and —
DK: So, there was just the pilot, yourself and one other still on board?
ES: Should have been the pilot and myself but we hit the field, the ground and bounced as I said. I was amidships with the hatch open there, the skipper was in his seat but the hatch over his head was missing, so when things grew to a halt, and the engines started burning, um, we decided to leave so the skipper came up on the wing next to me. I’d got onto the wing, which was the back edge of the wing because the undercarriage was up of course (when you’ve got to crash you don’t have the wheels down) and slid off the wing. The cows in the field didn’t like the intrusion. The skipper and I were looking around to find a quick way through and while we were doing so, a voice from behind said, ‘Wait for me’. It was the, um, the air gunner. He should be the first out. Unfortunately, he’d forgotten to take his parachute down the back. He’d left the parachute amidships by the door and he was actually in the fuselage, walking up the fuselage, to get this parachute pack when we hit the ground. Anyway, he got out alright and, um, we were going, er, out of the field and eventually, er, two ambulances arrived. ‘Are you injured?’ ‘No’. ‘OK, go away. This is for injured’. The other ambulance, ‘You’re not dead? This is for bodies’. So, we were still left there by the aeroplane and eventually the CO came over in his little car. As I say, we were within sight of the airfield when we actually hit the ground and the CO had driven over in his Hillman, and he sort of had a few words with the skipper. He kept well away from me. I told him we was short of fuel and I was bloody right [laugh]. But, um, he must have borne that in mind because, having done four operations with 35, um, I’m called in and told I’m going to a new squadron, where they‘re just going to get Halifaxes to instruct the flight engineers and pilots on the Halifax. I’d done four operations and there I am, I’m an instructor on 102 Squadron and obviously the CO at that time was a squadron leader, um, he’d got the message I might know what I’m talking about and there I was, an instructor. Much later on in the war he was the fli— squadron commander of the Pathfinder Squadron, I was the engineer leader and when he wanted to fly, guess who he took as his flight engineer? But, um, anyway I went to this 102 Squadron, had two qualified flying instructors to teach the pilots and things, and I had to explain the workings of the Halifax and things to the pi— new pilots and check up on the en— blokes that were posted in as engineers. And so there I was, twenty years old, telling these people. I said, um, the flight, flight commander who was the flying instructor, like me was an apprentice from Halton, trouble is he was about six years before me [laugh]. However, he thought, he must have thought I was making a good job of it, telling these people, because he suddenly called me into his office. He said, ’What do you think about taking a commission?’ A twenty-year-old sergeant. ‘Ay?’ I said, ‘Well you, you did it. What do you think?’ And he said, ’I think you should’. So, I suddenly found myself twenty years old, commissioned and — being commissioned anyway. I wasn’t actually commissioned at that time. I was put in for it. Later, on the Pathfinders, were starting and they were asking for crews and they asked for volunteers from other squadrons. There was a, a couple of Canadians, a pilot and navigator flew together, and they thought it would be a good idea to go to Pathfinders. Their flight engineer lived locally to New York so he wasn’t keen at all so, er, Hank, the skipper that was, he came to me and said, ‘We want a flight engineer. What do you think?’ I said, ‘OK. Put me down. I’ll go with you’, so I was posted to Pathfinders on 35 Squadron and, um, I was still a sergeant. And suddenly one day, the adjutant called, er, sent for me and I go to the adjutant’s office. The adjutant was sort of absolutely horrified, ‘You’ve been commissioned’, so I was the first flight engineer, one of the first flight — batch of flight engineers to be commissioned. Mind you, I did have to go for an interview at the Air Ministry first. It was quite an interesting one because at — down at Pathfinders at Graveley, which has its own station down the road to get straight into London, about an hour, three quarters of an hour ride to London so I knew, um, when I was told about this interview at the Air Ministry, I was flying that night. So went, you know, did my trip, came back, changed, had a shower, changed into my best blue, down the station and on the train up to Air Ministry for this bloody interview. I didn’t really know what it was all about but, er, they want to see me they can see me. So, I staggered into this interview thing and lots of sen— brass there, mainly group captains or wing commanders but there wasn’t a pilot or anything amongst them. They were all engineers you see, and, um, they didn’t know really know that much about it, they’d got to interview me and that was it. I sort of staggered in and I went asleep in the waiting room outside and they woke me up to go in, and I was sort of wiping the sleeping dust from my eyes as I went in for the interview. And one of these officious men obviously, um, thought I was on, been on the booze up in London that night, ‘Where were you last night?’ I gave them the name of the target [laugh]. Oh dear, atmosphere changed [laugh]. They gave me the wrong answer to the right question and, um, after that the interview went quite well. I ended up them telling them more about what went on than they knew about. Well, so that’s OK, so I’m told I’m commissioned, I go down to London with a bit of — coupons and some money and buy myself a uniform as a pilot officer. I go back to the office, back to the squadron and I get called in again, ‘We haven’t got a, what is it? An establishment for pilot officer flight engineer, only a flight lieutenant. You’re an acting flight lieutenant’. So I went, in about a matter of weeks, I went from a scruffy sergeant to a blown-up flight lieutenant [laugh] and I’ve been all sorts of flight lieutenant ever since. That was pilot officer acting flight lieutenant, flying officer acting flight lieutenant, war [unclear] flight lieutenant, end of the war flying officer acting flight lieutenant, er, proper flight lieutenant. There you go. I’ve been promoted to flight lieutenant so bloody often that I don’t know — but, um, that’s how it goes.
DK: So, so once you’re in the Pathfinder Squadron then, what was your — what did you do there? What were the Pathfinders doing?
ES: Well, it’s, um, the first thing they said was if you go into Pathfinders instead of doing thirty operations and being rested, you’ll do sixty. That didn’t last long. They cut those down to forty-five and —
DK: How did you fell about that, having to do two tours?
ES: Not too worried. I was young and stupid. Anyway, um, having being made a flight lieutenant, I was in charge of all the flight engineers, and when my crew finished their forty-seven, forty-five, they were posted away and I stayed on as flight engineer leader, and then suddenly somebody, something clicked, ‘Oh he shouldn’t be here, he’s done it’. And, um, I did, I did a couple more afterwards with other crews that hadn’t got an engineer at the time. And, um, shows you how stupid I was, I thought I’ve never, never tried — I’d like to try a trip as, um, a gunner so I volunteered to go on a trip as a mid-upper gunner on a flight just for the heck of it and, er, they suddenly realised I shouldn’t be there and I got posted straight away to a Training — a Pathfinder Training Unit. I arrived there just as 7 Squadron had taken a beating. They’d lost a squadron commander, two flight commanders and all the leaders. They had a hell of a time and so they suddenly they needed some experienced people in the Squadron, so they came to NTU to get them and, er, so they gathered — drew a few of us together and posted us to 7 Squadron. The only thing is, I hadn’t been there very long so before I knew where I was, I was back on op— on an operational squadron, on 7 Squadron, but they’d got Lancasters and I didn’t know a bloody thing about the Lancaster. The Halifax — I’d been on propeller courses, engine courses, er, aircraft course, airplane courses, everything and they had the, the Linc— the Lincolns. The Lancaster, I didn’t know anything about really apart from they had four Merlins and they were much the same as the Merlins in the, er, Halifax except they were made in America and had a better, er, better, um, type of — better design cylinder block, didn’t get internal leaks, and, um, I thought, ‘Well I must find out something about this aeroplane’. And I was still sort of feeling my way trying to find some books and things and they suddenly said, ‘You’re on ops tonight. Oh, and you’re a bomb aimer as well’. Because on Pathfinders, on Lancs, they used their flight engineer as a bomb aimer. Well, I don’t know a thing about bomb aiming and so they gave me a quick run through on the ground on how to set the bomb sight up and they said, ‘You better try it. Have a go’. They put, they put eight practice bombs on one of the Lancs then go off to a bombing raid, do my first bombing, eight, eight training ship. Trouble is, I dropped one and then the thing didn’t turn out right, the rest wouldn’t drop, so I had dropped one practice bomb. I was a bomb aimer with one practice and I’m on ops. I dropped four — about 80,000 tons of bombs, bombs that night, just practising [laugh] and that’s how life goes on.
DK: So as, as a flight engineer then, what did you prefer the Halifax or the Lancaster, once you got to know the Lancaster?
ES: If I was going to crash, I’d rather do it in a Lanc, in a Halifax. If I was going to go to war and not get shot at, I’d go in a Lanc. The Lanc was a much less sturdy aeroplane and it had the most diabolical position to bail out from. The, the door is right in front of the tail plane. On the Halifax the escape hatch in the fuselage is on the bottom corner of the fuselage and you dive out there, and the tail plane is way over. The only thing you’ve got to worry about is hitting the tail wheel. But, um, so if I had to bail out, I’d rather bail out of a Halifax and, um, I think I’d rather crash in a Halifax. It’s a much sturdier aeroplane, much — old fashioned pre-war des— design. The Lanc was a, a lash-up, um, it would never, it would never have flown, been allowed before the war because, um, aeroplanes had to fit in a hundred foot hangar. Well, the Manchester, which was the forerunner of the Lanc would go in a Halifax, in a hundred foot hangar, but when they took the Eag— Rolls Royce Eagles out and put a Merlin there, and then a bit of wing with another Merlin, that put an extra bit of wing on and the thing wouldn’t go in the hangar. So, it would, it would never have been allowed pre-war. But it, it gave an extra form of — the later Hali 3, they did have extended wing tips, they extended the wing on the Hali 3s which was a good solid aeroplane. I would like to have seen a Hali 3 with four Merlins, um, I think it would probably have been as good as the Lanc, but it didn’t —because it was built like — I was going to say a brick shit house [laugh]. As it was very well built, it didn’t have the same bomb carrying cap— capabilities and it didn’t have a bomb door, a bomb bay. The Lanc had this enormous long bomb bay which the Americans, the Americans saw that bomb bay and said, ‘Good God’, and so, um, you could you could carry a eight thousand pounder in a Halifax, which was two fours joined together, but it wouldn’t take any of the big things and it was very narrow and it had these extra bomb, er, bomb bays in the inner wing too. It wasn’t as well designed as the Lanc was. The Lanc wasn’t designed that way. It was a bit like Topsy. That was the way it grew. Yeah, I tried them both.
DK: As a flight engineer though, and purely as your role as a flight engineer, you preferred the Lancaster?
ES: Well on the Halifax, you had a much better instrument panel, you could see what’s going on, but you had a very complex fuel system. You started out with four tanks on the Hali 1s, early Hali 1As, that soon went to —from four tanks to — it went up again, and I think we ended up with 7 or 8 tanks in each wing and all little bits where they squeezed a bit in, um, which gave a very complex fuel system. To keep the CG right you had to keep messing about. I say the nose tank, number 2, which was on the leading edge of the wing, er, you couldn’t use that for landing or take off because of the change, sudden changes of altitude. So, the Halifax, you had — needed an engineer or somebody who knew what they were doing to manage the fuel system. The Lancs, with four bloody great tanks, you didn’t. Basically, you didn’t need a flight engineer on a Halifax, it was just another pair of hands, another pair of eyes and somebody else to keep an eye on the gauges —
DK: On the Lancaster, on the Lancaster, you didn’t need a flight engineer?
ES: No, but you did need somebody in the right hand seat.
DK: Right. OK. Yeah.
ES: And the flight engineer was cheaper than a, a co-pilot, a pilot, that’s really what it was, they were a cheap pilot substitute in a way.
DK: On the Lancaster so you didn’t need, really need a flight engineer on the Lancaster?
ES: Not as an engineer. I’ll tell you, the fuel cogs were two little handles but they had very big tanks. The Lanc, the Lanc, the original design of the Lanc was based on the premise that you would have sealed wings and there’d be a filler cap in the wing and you filled the wing up. But that meant that — that was fine until they said all tanks have got to be self-sealing, and you can’t put self-sealing on the outside of the tanks and that’s why they ended up putting little tanks in. But um, it’s a matter of history there. The Lanc arrived just at the right time. The Halifax was before its time and was outdated as soon as it arrived really but it was better than a Stirling.
DK: Yes. Did you fly ever on the Stirling or —
ES: Yes, I had, down at Boscombe.
DK: Not operationally though?
ES: No.
DK: No, no. So can you say a little about what the Pathfinders actually did and their, their role that was different to —
ES: Oh, quite different, um, initially it was a matter of, er, developing the technique. Don Bennett developed the tech— developed the, or developed the technique, I say, initially on Pathfinders, it was a matter — we had people going at H – 4 and dropping flares like mad and then other people following on trying to find the target. Later on, it got much more sophisticated. You still had the supporters and the important people in the H – 4. Supporters were supplied by the squadrons from the new boys in Pathfinders, this was in the opening stages. The crew in Pathfinders, first thing flying as a supporter, going in as H – 4 and, um, then later on getting promoted to being a flare dropper, still going in early, er, usually several rows of flare droppers, H – 4 and H – 2, and then you had the king-pins dropping the target markers, er, target indicators, from — with the light of the flares of the others and then once the master had put, um, put his marker on the target the supporters came along to keep it going. Basically, that’s all there was to it really, but it got a bit more sophisticated.
DK: Did you actually meet Don Bennett at this time?
ES: Oh yes. I knew, I met him.
DK: What did you think of, of Don Bennett?
ES: I — he didn’t need any crew. He knew it all. No, I was a great admirer of Don Bennett.
DK: You actually flew with him, did you?
ES: Yes, I did some — the first time we had a Hali 3 deli— delivered to, um, Graveley as a possible aircraft for Pathfinder Group because at that, at that stage we had Hali 2s, Lancs, Wellingtons, er, all in different squadrons. And Don wanted — was trying to get all his aircraft —
DK: Standardised —
ES: Same aircraft right through the Group, um, but anyway a Hali 3 had been sent to Bos— to Graveley for him to have a try. Well, he’d flown the Hali 2s and 1s, he was an experienced Halifax pilot but there was this Hali 3 he had been sent to try, so just he and I got into the aeroplane, nobody else, and he tried to fly the Hali 3. Well compared to the Hali 1s and 2s with four Merlins, four Hercules were a whole different proposition and one of the flight engineers’ job is following the pilot, as he opens the throttle, keep your hands behind so as if he moves his hands, the throttles won’t go back. And unfortunately, we were on the end of the runway, two of us in the aeroplane, not big fuel, no great fuel load, and he’s sort of half way up and I was following, and suddenly we were airborne. Now that was quite a different experience. Anyway completely opened the throttles, I held them and locked them open or locked them and that was his first experience of the Hali 3 and mine [laugh] but only the two of us in there anyway.
DK: But presumably, he then made the decision not the Hali 3, but go for the Lancaster then, did he?
ES: He flew the Hali 3 and he flew the Lanc.
DK: And he decided on the Lancaster then.
ES: Yeah, he was also — there was some talk of a teed-up Wellington with a pressure cabin.
DK: Oh right.
ES: It was only — I don’t think we even had one with us, I knew it existed and I’d seen pictures of it. They actually put a pressure cabin inside, inside the Wellington. It was quite a high-altitude aeroplane. I think they used it for high altitude research afterwards. Yes, so Don knew what he was doing and wasn’t wor— never worried, it was fine with him. A man than can take a tuner off, the control locks on, flies around Hamburg and land the bloody thing with the stick stuck.
DK: That’s what he did? The control lock was still on?
ES: Yeah.
DK: And he flew to Hamburg and back?
ES: No, he flew, took off from Hamburg. He should have been going to Berlin but he turned round, went round the airfield, and got it back down on the ground again, took off the control locks and flew to berlin on the Berlin shuttle.
DK: On the Berlin airlift.
ES: Yeah.
DK: On the Berlin airlift, yeah.
ES: Yeah. Oh, he knew what he was doing.
DK: So how many operations did you actually fly altogether then?
ES: Hundred and eight. Forty-seven on Wellingtons, on Halifaxes and sixty-one on Lancs. I know they say it isn’t allowed, you shouldn’t last that long. I hadn’t read the statistics [laugh].
DK: Well, if you didn’t know the statistics.
ES: It only happened by chance really. I did my forty-seven on Halifaxes and I was sent to NTU. 7 Squadron had a chop and NTU were asked to supply replacements. I was there, I was one of the replacements. They wanted a replacement, you know, they’d lost a lot of their top end. They wanted experienced people and I — so I was off operations for a few weeks and I was back on the Lancs, um, once I’d got through the — with first with 7 and then, um, 582 was formed, one flight from 7 Squadron and one flight from 156. I went there and, um, I just soldiered on. I was sort of a decoration round the place, I think I was a bit of a show piece. You know, a funny thing, when I did my hundredth operation, I was keeping quiet, I wasn’t making any fuss about it. But I used to help, deal with the crew list for the CO, and there was a young lad coming through as a skipper. He was a bit of a nervous type, he was worried because he was going to do his thirteenth trip. I thought, what the hell, I put myself down as his flight engineer. He came back and, um, we landed back at base and he said, ‘Ah that’s good, I’ve made my — done my thirteenth’, I said, ‘Well done. I’ve done my hundredth’ [laugh].
DK: And that was the first he knew?
ES: That was the first he knew. Nobody had reached three figures before. We’d lost two people at ninety-eight. We never lost one at ninety-nine but we did lose two at ninety-eight.
DK: Was there any recognition for the hundredth operation at all from the squadron or —
ES: Not from the squadron but I think there’s mention, um, in my DSO. I went over my hundredth anyway but, um, that’s really all there was. I got my DSO, I think I was the only flight engineer I think that did.
DK: How do you feel now looking back on that period [unclear] operations?
ES: I was lucky. I don’t know. It was my job. I was in the Air Force for a job and it was part of the job, sort of.
DK: And now if we move to the post war period. I was reading that you went to South America?
ES: Oh, I did the South American trip with Harris, yes.
DK: What was, what was Harris like?
ES: Well, he knew who I was when we got there [laugh]. But it was quite a crazy thing, we didn’t see much of him really. He was the top brass and we were the, we were the tail end. Funny thing is, when we first flew over, we went down to Gambia, went across to Recife, just by the mouth of the Amazon and, um, we had — Harris himself and his, his PA had been in America with the RAF during the war and they had the correct drill for America. They had long — they were in khaki but they had long trousers. We were issued with khaki appropriate to, er, West Africa but we had shorts. Oh dear, when we landed in Brazil, what a kerfuffle, ‘[unclear] get those men back in the aeroplane out of sight’. Anyway, we were pu— pushed back in the aeroplane and, um, the top brass, me, Harris and his little entourage and they were marched off to a decent hotel, and somebody came out to us, ‘Put your trousers on’, and we were allowed to go and get a meal as well [laugh]. It was ridiculous. We didn’t know what was going on.
DK: So, it, so it was three Lancasters you took to Brazil then?
ES: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And how did they perform going across the —
ES: Oh, no problems there. Um, the fuel was — you had to watch the fuel. We weren’t over dressed for it. We didn’t have long range tanks or anything which are available, were avail— or eventually became available for the Lancs, but there was no problem.
DK: So, what was the purpose of the visit then? Was it just an invite for Harris by the Brazilians?.
ES: Brazil was our allies. They had a division fighting in Italy and we were there. We —the division for me — because Brazil did not declare war on Japan, er, mainly because they had too large a Japanese population. The only thing that the Brazilians did about the Japanese is they all had to live at least a hundred kilometres from the coast. That was the Brazilian, um, result of Japan entering the war, um, and their Army only fought in Europe with the American 5th Army and they came back. We were there when they came back. We were flying over them as they went down the main street in Rio, we were over— overhead.
DK: Oh, I see, so it was a kind of com— celebration for the return of their army, in effect?
ES: Er, you mentioned the three Lancs. Well, when we turned round to come back, one of them had engine trouble. It wasn’t my aircraft but of the flight engineers, I was the only one that could change an engine or knew anything about it so I ended up staying behind waiting for the new engine. And the Brazilians were very good, they gave us a lot of coffee beans and they were tied up in the bomb bay and the aeroplane was flown by the 617 Squadron crew, and 617 Squadron took off from the airport at Brazil, at, er, Rio, which is six hours from the, er, air— from the promenade. Um, being 617 Squadron, they didn’t have bomb bays. They weren’t used to bomb, bomb doors so they took off with the bomb doors open (because you always park with the bomb doors open), so they took off with them open and some of us left behind saw them turn out over the harbour and watched our coffee beans descend into the harbour.
DK: Oh no.
ES: One, er, bag didn’t detach and when we got back instead of getting a whole bag of coffee beans which were of course rationed around, almost unavailable in England, we had a two-pound bag of them. But anyway, yeah.
DK: So, after that, is this when you then went for pilot training?
ES: Not immediately, no. I went — I did an engineering officers course, um, I was already, although I was a fitter and a qualified fitter, um, I went on to — down to St Athan, I think for four months, an accelerated engineering officer’s course, filling in the gaps between what I’d been through, what I knew as an apprentice, what I knew as a flight engineer, just filling in the gaps. I come out as a fully trained flight engineering officer which was quite useful in the end. But I went back to the Squadron and I was then on 20, on 24 Squadron, the VIP Squadron, flying Lancastrians, er, VIPs around the place. I managed to save the life of myself, Sir Robert Watson Watts and Ralph Cochrane all in one go. I — if they’d gone down and I’d been with them. We had Lancasters, Lancastrians sorry, but they had a belly tank to increase the range, because the Lanc couldn’t fly the Atlantic, so the Lancastrian couldn’t unless they put long range tanks in the bomb bay. Since it was a [unclear] thing, it wasn’t a proper — it wasn’t a well thought out plan. The filling was, um, on the side of the bomb bay with the — the flight engineer had an extension which you undid a hatch on the bomb bay, took the cap off the, er, tank, put this extension on and then you could fill the fuel up, fill the long range tank up. Good idea. Well, on going to America we were carrying two flight engineers, so I was filling the port wing and the other guy was filling the starboard wing, and I filled my wing and I look down and this bloke who was filing the bomb bay, belly tank seemed to be having a lot of trouble, seemed to be stopping and starting and whatever. So, I went down to see what, you know, the problem was. We were out in the Azores and I don’t speak Portuguese so I was chattering away, took the thing out. No wonder he was having trouble. What was he putting in the tank? Engine oil.
DK: Oh dear.
ES: I had a quick thought, er, I could see us, another one in the Bermuda Triangle. We’d have been somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle when I switched over to that tank. We wouldn’t have gone much further. Anyway, I got him out of the way, and I go the crew and anyone standing around. I got a pan out from the side of the airfield and pushed the thing back and got the wheel, the bit, the tail wheel and a bit more of the fuselage over the grass, got my tool box out [slight laugh], undid the, this false bomb door that we had, it was only two sheets of metal, opened that up. I could then get to the Pulsometer pump, which was used to transfer the, er, petrol as it should have been to the wing. But fortunately, it wasn’t switched on I don’t think. I quickly disconnected it actually in case anybody did switch it on and, um, took the Pulsometer pump off and, er, of course all the oil flowed out, straight onto the grass, er, put the thing back on again, got the fella with the petrol bowser and put a couple of hundred gallons in the tank. I’m not paying [laugh].
DK: It makes you wonder if that happened in the past if —
ES: Oh yes. I think that’s what happened with MacMillan in the Star Tiger. A very similar installation on the, on the Tudor. The Tudor had the tank in the same position.
DK: Because several went missing, didn’t they?
ES: Yeah, well if you put oil in the bloody thing. The Portuguese people, they come out with the tanker and you can’t see what’s in the tanker. But, um, anyway I did, er, swirled this thing out, pumped this fuel, fuel oil mixture out with the Pulsometer pump, got a bucket with, um, pure petrol in, stripped the Pulsometer pump out down to its essential bits, washed out the inside, swirled it round and, um, pumped some, put some more petrol in the tank, swirled it round and hoped for the best, put the Pulsometer pump on and we got to Washington DC on that fuel. Otherwise, there’d be no me, no Sir Robert Watson Watt, no Sir Ralph Cochrane or anybody but, um, that’s what flight engineers are for, aren’t they?
DK: Exactly. I guess they, they never knew. Never knew how close to disaster they came.
ES: No, they were too busy scoffing. We didn’t get a meal, the other engineers and I didn’t get anything to eat at all until the other — Washington, actually Indianapolis. We didn’t stop long in Washington, then we went on to Indianapolis. It’s all a story.
DK: So, it was then soon after that you took the pilot training then, was it?
ES: Yes, ‘47 or, ‘47 I think I took the pilot training.
DK: And ended up on the Neptunes?
ES: No, I ended up on Lancasters.
DK: Oh right. OK.
ES: At first. As soon as I took the pilots course, I thought, ‘What’s going to happen now?’ Well, I’d been on Transport Command, been on Bomber Command. Oh, put him on Coastal Command. And what do they give him to fly? A Lancaster. And, um, I was flight commander on 217 Squadron and I was off to the States [slight laugh].
DK: And so how did it feel now you were a pilot of a Lancaster, after so many operations as a flight engineer?
ES: It seemed quite natural, though I must admit, when I first went as a pilot for the conversion course, as a pilot up to Kinloss, I had the first instruction for pilot. I’ll teach him all about the Lanc. He can teach me all about the Lanc [laugh], He knew who I was and I knew who he was [laugh].
DK: He couldn’t teach you much then?
ES: Eh?
DK: He couldn’t teach you much?
ES: Well, he didn’t bother. I sat there and listened to it all. You got to show willing and, er, that’s how it went
DK: So, once you converted to the Neptunes then, what were they like?
ES: A dream, a dream. You could do anything with them. They had these spoilers in the wing. When you put the spoilers on, when you put thing on, it went vroom. Of course, when we first got the Neptunes, all the top people wanted to fly them so we had a, a group of MPs come up to Kinloss to see us and find out all about these new aeroplanes. We didn’t, they were not our aeroplanes, the Neptunes, the RAF never owned any Neptunes. They were only on loan waiting, because the Sund— the Shackletons were late on delivery and these were taken as, in a sort of stop gap until we got — Avro got their finger out, started producing Shackletons. I quite enjoyed flying the Neptune. Nicest aeroplane I’d ever flown.
DK: Did you get to fly the Shackleton then, eventually?
ES: No. It was just a heavy Lancaster. The Neptune was a whole different ball game, you could do things with that.
DK: Do you think the Nim— Shack— Neptune should have been used instead of the Shackleton then?
ES: It was — the Neptunes were loaned, loan to us until we could get enough Shackletons delivered. They were only on loan. They went back to the States and went on loan to somebody else no doubt. Other — the Aussies they picked up two Shackletons, two Neptunes at the same time. They weren’t bare backed robbers but they bought theirs.
DK: Do you think we should have bought the Neptune then?
ES: I think they were better. I think it would have been a better deal than the Shackleton ever was. To give you an example, er, Churchill was coming back from America on one of the Queens, and the idea was that the RAF should go out to the mid-Atlantic and beyond to welcome him, and this was the plan and I was sitting in the mess having breakfast and saw the Shackleton taking off to meet Winny. Then I finished my breakfast, went down to flight, did my briefing, got into the aeroplane, flew off and once we got the Queen on radar I, we homed in over the Queen and then I looked on the radar and, oh yes, there’s a Shackleton coming in. We’d guide him in to —
DK: Because they were so much slower.
ES: Slower? They didn’t — they only had one speed. You see, we used to transit at ten thousand feet which gives you a much better air speed, but they did everything at about two thousand, the Shackleton, which gives us about a hundred miles an hour advantage at ten thousand. And, um, so anyway we guided them and we had a fly round the Queen and, um, Churchill could see them and then it was time for them to go. So, they went off there. We watched them go and a little bit later, we flew off and I was back in the mess when the Shackletons landed [laugh]. That’s the difference you see. They were no faster on attack really. I was going to tell you, when we first got the Neptune, a group MPs came up to have a look at it. My squadron commander, he was a hard drinking man, so we, after they arrived so I left, er, I had a dinner with them, and spoke to them and that and left the squadron commander to take care of them. He was quite happy drinking all night. Oh, that car’s — the car’s just driven two houses up and stopped there. Never mind, it’s not in your way. But anyway, they had there thing in the mess and the next morning they were going for a flight. Well, one of the things the Neptune could do which the Shackleton never got round to doing, was rocket attacks, [unclear] sixteen rockets, sort of equivalent of two, um, salvos from a cruiser and for a rocket attack on an aircraft, ship or submarine, your flying indicators about twelve hundred feet, and you put the nose down to about seventy degrees, take aim, fire the rockets. They were very, very accurate too. I say, to practice we had old wrecks of cars out on the range. You expect to hit a car with a rocket. It’s not that big a target but you hit a car with a rocket, a ship will be a big problem because of course the salvos, that car doesn’t fire back at you, but, um, we’d got two 20 mm cannons and a nose sight and they can do some damage. Anyway, so I take these MPs up and they’d had a good night out the night before [laugh], and I was flying at a thousand feet and we’re going into attack, vroom, MPs on the ceiling [laugh] and we go in and attack, fire the rocket, horrible. You got to have fun, you got to have your fun somehow.
DK: Were the MPs impressed by that?
ES: I don’t know [laugh]. They were quite quiet when we came back [laugh].
DK: I can imagine.
ES: Not used to big aeroplanes. They liked fighters. But I had fun.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then? What year would that have been?
ES: Oh dear. Oh, I just managed to — it was Army, aft— after, um, flight commander at 617. I spent some time doing my stint as a ground eng— ground fitter, a ground officer. I was quite lucky. I got rather a cushy number for my two years. I was posted out to Germany as adjutant with an AOP Squadron with Austers, and, um, it was when I finished my, just finishing my two years out there when the Army MO called me in for the annual medical, and he said, ‘You’re too deaf to fly’, And that was it. Oh yes, a bloody Army bloke, a Pongo got me out. Actually, he didn’t get me out, he said, ‘You’re unfit to fly’. The Air Force said, ‘You can stay in in your current rank until you reach retirement age’. Well, I was thirty-five, I didn’t want to do another twenty bloody years doing bugger all, nothing interesting, so I elected to take an early retirement. Been drawing a pension ever since. I’ve been drawing my RAF pension, this is the first month of my sixty-first year of drawing a pension.
DK: Excellent. Well, I think on that note we’ll —
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Three
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE161013, PStockerEE1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:11:31 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ted joined the air force in January 1938 as an apprentice at RAF Halton. This was accelerated because of the war, and he was posted to RAF Boscombe Down.
Although he wanted to be a pilot, Ted’s skills were needed as a flight engineer. He was posted to 35 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse in 1940 where he encountered Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire. Later that year, Ted found a crew and aircraft and started operations over Germany. After only four operations, he went to instruct pilots and flight engineers on Halifaxes at 102 Squadron.
Ted was posted to Pathfinders 35 Squadron and was the first flight engineer to be commissioned. After 47 operations, he volunteered and was sent for training as a mid-upper gunner to a Pathfinder Training Unit and 7 Squadron, who needed experienced people. He had to learn about Lancasters, which he compares in some detail to Halifaxes.
Ted outlines the work of the Pathfinders and how the system became more sophisticated. He encountered Donald Bennett and once flew with him, as well as flying with Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris to Brazil.
Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters). He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
Ted did an engineering officers’ course at RAF St Athan, followed by 24 Squadron, a VIP transport squadron, flying Lancastrians.
After pilot training in 1947, Ted was flight commander on 217 squadron. He flew Neptunes, which he compares favourably to Shackletons. Ted was then posted to Germany for two years as adjutant with an Air Observation Post squadron and flew Austers. He left the RAF because of impaired hearing.
Temporal Coverage
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1938
1940
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
582 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
Distinguished Service Order
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
RAF Linton on Ouse
Shackleton
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/574/8843/PGillDJ1601.2.jpg
662701a9054e510da854e9411faa026d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/574/8843/AGillDJ161121.2.mp3
97f242e4491fb05ebd220809de918258
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gill, Dennis James
D J Gill
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Gill, DJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dennis James Gill (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: David Kavanagh, from the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Mr Dennis Gill at his home on November the 21st 2016. I'll just put that there.
DG: OK
DK: If I keep looking over there I am just making sure it’s working. So if that’s OK. What I wanted to ask you first of all was you were with 199 Squadron as a flight engineer?
DG: No, a rear gunner.
DK: Oh rear gunner, sorry, OK, I've got the wrong ─. It does say that, my mistake, sorry. First of all what were you doing immediately before the war?
DG: Um, I was working, well I ─. I went into Hallcroft Aircraft Company when I left school. I left at 14. I stayed there about a year and then the war started and they put black out, blacked out all the windows and I was in the sheet metal section, a trainee. I didn't like the noise and didn't like being cooped up so I left there and I had one or two other jobs prior to going in the RAF. I ended up working for my father. He had a second hand furniture shop.
DK: Where abouts was that? Where abouts was the furniture shop?
DG: Surbiton in Surrey.
DK: Oh, I know Surbiton well.
DG: Do you?
DK: I used to live there for a while.
DG: Did you? Well I actually lived in Tolworth.
DK: Oh, OK, I know it well. So what year would this have been then, roughly?
DG: What year?
DK: Yes, what year when you joined the RAF?
DG: I think it was about 1943.
DK: So what made you join the RAF rather than the Army or Navy?
DG: Well I’ve always been interested in aircraft and I didn’t want to go in the other ones and the only way you could get into the RAF was to volunteer as aircrew or pilot and, um, I volunteered as a pilot and got approved.
DK: Yes
DG: But they said there was a ─, I wouldn't be called up for a year but if I wanted to be called up straight away, um, I could volunteer as aircrew which I did.
DK: Right, so what would that have meant then? That you could go as any aircrew, gunner or ─?
DG: Well you could volunteer for what position you wanted, but I don't think I would have volunteered but I don’t think I would have volunteered if it had been anything but an air gunner, because I, um, I didn't like the idea of being claustrophobic inside a bomber. I don’t think I would have volunteered but being able to see out ,and especially of course if you were being attacked you could be firing back at something, so that is why I chose that.
DK: Right so you're then a trainee air gunner? So where did the training take place? What was your ─?
DG: Porthcawl in Wales, I can’t really remember, um, up on the Yorkshire coast, Bridlington, those places.
DK: And what did the training involve then as an air gunner?
DG: Well it involved, um, aircraft recognition, Morse Code, I don't know why Morse Code came into it, and semaphore. You know with the lamp and or pointers and of course at Porthcawl we went in Ansons and did flying.
DK: Right, would that have been the first time you flew then, the Anson?
DG: Yes, um
DK: What did you feel about that the first time you ─?
DG: I quite liked that.
DK: So was that gunner training from the aircraft you were shooting at targets presumably?
DG: Well yes, um, one thing that disappointed me was the fact [laughs] that we were in the Anson, there was about five or six of us and there was a mid upper turret, there was a single seater trainer plane putting a target drone about six hundred feet away. We all climbed up there and had a bash at it. You could see them by tracer mainly and when we [chuckles] got down I expected to see the drone peppered with holes but there was only about three in it. [laughs] So it enlightened me a lot.
DK: So hitting a target while you are airborne was quite a bit more difficult then?
DG: Oh yes it is, yes.
DK: So after your official training as a gunner where did you move onto then? Can you remember the name of the operational training unit?
DG: I can’t remember where that was and I haven’t got my log book it disappeared somewhere so –
DK: That's a shame.
DG: Um, but I’ve got copies of the other crew log books but I can’t remember the, where this was, but we went onto, let’s see [pause] yes, I done some writing, don't know if you know, it's been published in that.
DK: Right. Let’s have a look. Just for the recording it's the world’s local history group newsletter number 58 New Year 2015 wartime memories.
DG: I had two or three in there actually but that, um, but the war time memories is quite ─ they are all interesting but this one is about training incidents and that's quite interesting and they are the articles that I’ve written so far.
DK: Oh right. And those articles are all for this publication are they or ─?
DG: No, no they are in, they are in that one and this one.
DK: Oh, The Sterling Times Magazine.
DG: They gradually keep publishing them and all of my articles are with the Imperial War Museum.
DK: Oh, OK.
DG: They got to know about them and asked me to send them. Unless you want copies of them you can have them, but –
DK: Um, I think the centre would certainly be interested in copies of these. That one, that one has got your training memories there.
DG: My training.
DK: So that’s what I'm going to [unclear]
DG: This, um, [flicking through papers] I don't know where it is now but there is one about my pre-war experiences before I went into the RAF, because we had quite a lot of activity in Tolworth before I joined up.
DK: So just following this here at the operational training unit then you trained first on Wellingtons and then Stirlings?
DG: Yep.
DK: So would have that been where you first met your crew?
DG: Yes
DK: So how did that happen? How did you meet them?
DG: Well we went to the OTU for Wellingtons and the procedure is you go into a Nissen hut and the NAFI have got some tables along side with tea and cakes etcetera. There are several air crew ,not air crew actually, several air crew members in there and they are all milling about and there are probably about half a dozen pilots and they look around and they choose who they want to be in their air crew.
DK: Right.
DG: And my ─ the one about the, the training incident tells you about that procedure.
DK: Oh OK, so the pilot approached you then did he? So we need a gunner?
DG: Um.
DK: So can you remember the name of your pilot?
DG: Oh no I can't, I could if I tried but I can’t at the moment but what I know is that, in there, he was older than the average person, thirty, and he got kicked off the course because he couldn’t handle the Wellington then we got another younger chap a pilot officer. He was about twenty. White his name was and eventually we lost him as well because we, er, he crashed the aircraft when we were taking off and he had to go back for more training.
DK: Right, so that was an accident at the OTU was it?
DG: No it was an accident on the 199 Squadron.
DK: So you have done your training first of all on the wellingtons and then the Stirlings?
DG: Yes
DK: So what did you feel about the Wellington as an aircraft?
DG: Well I don’t know whether I had any feeling about it but I quite liked the Stirling. Well, well if you can say you like a material object, I mean –.
DK: But did you feel confident in the aircraft?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: I'm just reading this. [pause]'He's trying to f'ing kill us all' [laughs]. So the first pilot was washed out? He didn't complete the training?
DG: No he couldn't handle it.
DK: So you have another pilot and his name was?
DG: White.
DK: White, so ─?
DG: Nice chap.
DK: So from the OTU then you’ve now gone to 199 Squadron? Straight there?
DG: Yes, that's North Creake near Wells on Sea in Norfolk.
DK: So how many operations did you actually do with 199 Squadron?
DG: Thirty-seven
DK: And were they all on Stirlings?
DG: No Halifax and Stirling
DK: Do you know how many of each?
DG: No, but you had to, when you sign up as an aircrew you have to do thirty ops but what they don’t tell you is that if you are wanted as a spare gunner with another crew that doesn't count. Which is how I came to do the seven more.
DK: Right. So you were a spare bod with another crew then?
DG: On seven occasions yes. The mid upper gunner I think he, he did it on about ten occasions or about nine.
DK: So as, as, as just for the recording really but, as an air gunner what is your duties on the aircraft? What are you really there for?
DG: [laughs] Well nothing actually because in my opinion they were superfluous.
DK: Really.
DG: In night flying.
DK: Yeah.
DG: I just sat there and waited to be killed. There’s no way you can, you can shoot down at a night fighter, no way at all.
DK: Did you see many night fighters then?
DG: We only, I saw one and that I think was stalking us but we were very lucky because they were shooting down so many aircraft that they had to go back to their airfield to get fresh ammunition and this one I’m quite certain had run out of ammo.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Because he simply went away. Which was lucky for us.
DK: Right. So did, so that was the only time you –
DG: The only time, well yes.
DK: Did you fire on him or ─
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: Well I, the reason I didn’t fire on him I was in quite a quandary actually, is because he wasn’t directly behind me. He was at, at that angle and because of that I thought could it be a Mosquito. You see and it was so dark, I'm quite good at recco, but it was so dark I couldn’t really make out and I thought Christ I don't want to shoot down a bloody Mosquito and he got quite near and I could of done but he was at that angle. Obviously not going to shoot at us.
DK: Yeah.
DG: So I didn't shoot.
DK: I guess if you, if you do then fire you’re actually drawing attention to yourselves aren't you?
DG: Yeah.
DK: Very good. What about the flack and the searchlights were you hit at all by the anti-aircraft fire?
DG: No because we were a special duties squadron [clears his throat] and we had all this ─ We didn’t carry bombs just me though, two wireless operators. One did jamming and what we did was throughout this window in front of the bomber, the bombers that were going to a target.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Then we had to go and, go on what they call a race course. I’m not sure how many there were of us, I think there was only two, one on one side of the target, one the other and we went ─ and we had to fly a [unclear] target. We had to fly backwards and forwards each side of the target as near to the target as we could get and fairly low, about ten thousand feet. So that the second specialist wireless operator could jam the anti-aircraft guns and their, and their searchlights.
DK: Oh right.
DG: So we were stuck there. Well at Hamburg we were stuck there for about an hour.
DK: While the raids going on?
DG: Yes and quite close to the searchlights and at Hamburg I saw the chap the other side the target get shot down. So we were ─ you know, and the bloody, we, the searchlights when they come past you they light up the whole of the interior.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Quite frightening actually.
DK: Um. So if you were caught in a searchlight what does the pilot do then to?
DG: Well, um, he, he tried to corkscrew out of it didn't he and of course in that, what ─ there’s one here that says, yes that one, “I’m about to die”. Now this is all about Hamburg and a friend of mine who lives at Lowestoft he was an engineer that went to Hamburg and he said as he was approaching, ‘the amount of flack was unbelievable’, and he said, thought to himself as he approached this ball of flack 'this is where I am about to die'. Well I use that phrase because there was a point where, one of the things that concerned me more than anything, more than the actual enemy was the possibility of colliding.
DG: Um.
DK: And I saw this Halifax coming straight to us from the, from the, from the right hand side like that. And I didn't ─ how it missed us I don't know, I mean only by about a couple of metres if that and that’s where I said, I thought to myself this is where I’m about to die and that was, that was what concerned me more than anything and the other thing of course is we don’t know how many aircraft were, collided with each other, and you see the other thing is when you, when you’re at a briefing they don’t go directly to the target they go on what they call dogleg courses to confuse the enemy as to where you are going. Well if you have got a thousand bombers going there then they’ve got to go that way they’vee all got to turn and if some leave it a bit late, you know, the, the possibility of a collision is huge.
DK: Yeah. So did you go on all of the Hamburg raids then or?
DG: No, No, I only went on one.
DK: Right. Only one? [pause] So this is just for the recording here, this is the “World’s Local History Group Newsletter” number fifty-nine, spring 2015.
DG: Do you want a coffee at all?
DK: Um, I’m fine thank you; I just had one on the way.
DG: OK.
DK: [pause] So how did you feel then at, at the briefings then when you saw the target for the first time?
DG: Well [long pause] [rustling of papers] where is it in here? [long pause] This is the one. [pause] Oh yes. That explains. Our wireless operator is the only other person in the crew who is alive at the moment.
DK: Oh right. OK.
DG: He lives; I think it’s in Staffordshire, Midlands.
DK: You can’t remember his name can you?
DG: Yes, Um, Andy Croxhill.
DK: Andy.
DG: I still write to him.
DK: Croxhill.
DG: Well –
DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.
DG: Pardon.
DK: I just wonder if our people have been to see him or not.
DG: Well I hope he doesn’t see that because that refers to him and he was scared stiff of flying.
DK: Right. So he was, he was, sorry, the navigator?
DG: No the wireless officer.
DK: Wireless operator, sorry?
DG: The ordinary wireless operator.
DK: Right.
DG: Not the specialist and of course it tells you there about the briefing when his reaction to it.
DK: So it’s, do you mind if I read this out? Is that OK?
DG: Pardon.
DK: Do you mind if I read this?
DG: No.
DK: So it’s "Wartime Memories the Other Side of the Coin". So bomber aircrew had a unique scenario, in other services you could find yourself at the sharp end of war and it could be traumatic but you did not know when or how many times. If you were bomber aircrew you did know you had to face the sharp end for a minimum of thirty operations and the constant knowledge of this had its psychological effects on you. The media glamorised aircrew as being brave heroes. They were never depicted as being afraid. I spent seven months with my operational squadron and every day I was afraid. We were all afraid so we had to act as if we were not afraid and give morale support to each other except for Andy he was very afraid and a poor actor. Andy was a small slim person with dark hair and pale complexion he didn’t seem an aircrew type to me he said after the war he wanted to sit under a tree and write poetry. We all knew if we had on, if we were on ops when we went to our NCOs mess for a midday meal for there on the blackboard would be the names of the crews involved. So every morning Andy was very quiet. If there was an operation on he ate his meal in silence. If there was no operation his demeanour would change and he would become cheerful and talkative. At an operational briefing the briefing officer was stressing the dangers involved as well into enemy territory and the target would be heavily defended and more night fighters would be deployed. None of us were very happy. I was sitting between Andy and Mitch, a mid upper gunner, and Mitch nudged me and said ‘look at Andy’. I did so and Andy's pale features were white, white as a sheet. Returning from one operation due to bad weather at North Creake airfield we were diverted to a Lancaster Bomber airfield in Lincolnshire. There I met an air gunner I trained with. I remember him as a gregarious cheerful character. I was dismayed to see how he had changed. He was obviously under stress and told me that he was scared about going on operations. He was now very serious and confided in me that he didn’t expect to survive this tour of operations. He seemed to have an intuition about his fate. I only hope he was wrong. That’s by Dennis Gill, Rear Gunner, Stirlings 199 Squadron. Um, so it shows the, the tensions doesn't it?
DG: Yes. And there is another one talking about tension. There is another article that says lost comrades. That’s when you ─, I'll let you have them if you want them.
DK: Yeah. OK that would be good.
DG: Yes, lost comrades that tells you about the tension because we were in our billet with another crew and of course they went off one night and we all wished them a safe operation and they didn't come back. And because you have got five or six beds there all empty for maybe a week and that sort of all affects you.
DK: Um. [pause] So apart from the Hamburg raid then can you recall what other operations you, or what other cities you flew to?
DG: No, we went to the Ruhr quite frequently, yes and Magdeburg, Cologne. They are the ones I remember.
DK: And as, as 199 Squadron, and that was part of 100 Group wasn't it?
DG: Yes.
DK: The special duties. So all of your thirty-seven ops then were special duties?
DG: Yes.
DK: Yeah, with the extra wireless operator there?
DG: Um.
DK: Um. So when, when you converted to the Halifaxes then, how, how did?
DG: I didn't convert to the Halifaxes.
DK: Oh you didn't, oh.
DG: No I just flew in them.
DK: Right OK.
DG: As a spare gunner.
DK: Oh right OK, OK. So your main tour then was Stirling the extra ones were Halifax?
DG: Um and the pilot we eventually crewed up when Pilot Officer White crashed. We had, we obviously had to have another pilot. He had just done a tour. He was a New Zealander about six feet two. Completely fearless. I’ve got another article about him and he was completely fearless and he thought he was immortal I think. And when we finished our operations we were called in to see the Wing Commander or his [unclear], I’m not sure which, who endeavoured to persuade us to have a ─ do a second tour. And none of us did except him.
DK: Right.
DG: And he went out to Japan and did a third tour there and survived that.
DK: Oh. Can you remember his name?
DG: Barrack.
DK: Barrack.
DG: Flight Lieutenant Barrack.
DK: So the, the crash that your previous pilot was involved in, White.
DG: Um.
DK: Were, were you on board at the time when he –
DG: Um, Oh yes
DK: When he crashed?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: So was anybody injured seriously or?
DG: No, I've got another article about that, the crash actually. What happened was this Pilot Officer White because they were all inexperienced these pilots.
DK: And this was in the Stirling?
DG: Yes and the Stirling was easily affected by wind and it was blown sideways onto the rough grass. Before it reached its take off, take off speed he tried to yank it up and he got up so high and stalled, and went banged down again. Then he tried to pull it up again and it went up a bit higher and it came down and the under carriage went through the wing and all the tanks ruptured and caught fire.
DK: The crew all got out ok then?
DG: Well, I was at the back.
DK: So you’re sitting in your turret at the time?
DG: No up against the bulk head.
DK: So you sat there for take offs then?
DG: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
DG: With the mid upper gunner.
DK: Yeah.
DG: And of course when we, when we crashed when I looked forward it was all flames. I tried to get out and it was pitch black and my foot slipped and got caught in the structure of the, of the Stirling. I kept trying to pull it out and I thought oh sod that. I pulled my foot out, I pulled my foot out the boot and got out of the aircraft. The other mid upper gunner he got out. The door was open and then I ran away from the aircraft and then I thought is there anything I could do so I started to run back then I saw all these crew coming up out of the top escape hatch and the flames were about ten feet high beside the fuselage and they went through them. Why they didn't go the other way I don't know, [laughs] over the nose, which was [laughs] obvious to me but anyway they all came over the top turret, down the fuselage onto the tar plain and we stood there watching it burn and of course the flames got to the mid upper turret, triggered the, the mechanism to shoot and it, and it was dipped down about five degrees aimed directly at us [laughs] and the [unclear] was going straight over our heads so we all dived to the ground and it eventually finished.
DK: But you were all ok though?
DG: Yes but when I went to the, to the stores to get another pair of flying boots the pilot officer who was the stores, in charge of the stores, he accused me of panicking [laughs].
DK: I'm not surprised; I think I would have panicked. [laughs]
DG: Well, maybe he was right but I don’t know. [laughs]
DK: [laughs] Oh dear. So did you get your new flight boots?
DG: Oh yes.
DK: Um. But the crew were all OK though?
DG: Them were all OK, yes.
DK: But what, your Pilot White never flew again then?
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: Well I don’t know whether he flew. But he survived the war I know that, but him, he probably went on and flew with another crew.
DK: Um.
DG: I don’t know.
DK: So that’s when you got the New Zealander then?
DG: Um.
DK: Pilot Officer Barrack?
DG: But I, we were only on the squadron seven months. You see. I did thirty-seven ops in seven months which was about, I don’t know two, one or two every three weeks, something like that.
DK: And they would have all been in 1943?
DG: Forty-four, forty-five it would have been .
DK: Right.
DG: Those. Yes the beginning, in the summer and winter of forty-four we did that.
DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations or?
DG: Pardon.
DK: Did you go on the D-Day operations? The Normandy invasion?
DG: Well that’s when we more or less started.
DK: Right.
DG: And then, Um. Yes.
DK: So you did your thirty-seven operations, you finished your tour. Did you, did you know you were about to end your tour then or did it come as a bit of a surprise that you were no longer flying?
DG: No because when we done thirty with the aircrew we all knew we were finished. I went onto a mechanics course. Went to Blackpool and the, the mid upper gunner was given a commission and he went out to India.
DK: Right.
DG: And served there.
DK: So, so what did you do for the remainder of the war then? Were you training or?
DG: Well I was ─ well I was being trained as a mechanic.
DK: Right.
DG: But shortly after that I got demobbed.
DK: Right. So what was your career after leaving the RAF then?
DG: Well I had one or two jobs but because I hadn't got a, a profession and I happened to get into a nearby local council doing their printing, plan printing and going out with the surveyors and there was a building inspectors office there and I went and saw the chief engineer and I said ‘could I spend some time with the building inspector ‘because I wanted to study building.
DK: Right.
DG: Not stay in this job there was no future in it and he agreed and then there was, I saw an advert for a trainee building inspector at Mitcham and I applied for that and got it and that's where I started my career as a building inspector.
DK: Oh right, OK. So after all these years how do you look back on your time in the RAF?
DG: [laughs] Well it was very traumatic and makes you very anti-war and but you ─, but you ─, and I very, and I, after the war I was very concerned about, and when I was in, in, in doing the operation, concerned about area bombing. Which was against the laws of war, whatever that, I can’t remember what they are.
DK: The Geneva Convention?
DG: Yes the Geneva Convention, yes against that but of course it’s all very well for people to sit round a table and make rules but when you’re actually in the war and there’s a possibility you are going to lose it you don't worry about rules and after the war I, I realised then that we had no alternative but to do that because anyway Hitler and the Nazi's were doing it in Spain and elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
DG: But there you are, that’s war I mean it's a sort of madness really.
DK: Um. Did you stay in touch with your crew at all after the war or?
DG: Yes for a while, yes but the engineer went to South Africa. He caught a disease there and died. The pilot went back to New Zealand. I don't know what he did but he of course passed away. There’s only me and Andy who are left.
DK: The wireless operator?
DG: Of the crew, yes.
DK: And you’re still in touch with him then?
DG: Oh yeah.
DK: That's Andy Crookshaw?
DG: Um, yes.
DK: From Staffordshire? So let's see if we have, if he’s been interviewed or not.
DG: Um.
DK: OK, that's great. It’s really interesting.
DG: Um, Ok.
DK: What we got there? That’s thirty-five minutes.
DG: Do you want copies of my writings or not?
DK: Please if that's possible.
DG: Well I’ve got them in A4 form.
DK: Right, OK. ‘Cause what we can do, I'll just explain, I'll just turn this off but thanks very much for your time. I’ll just keep this –
DG: He quite frequently told the pilot he was shutting an engine down.
DK: This was the flight engineer?
DG: Yes, and then later on he told them he’d restarted it, well I don’t know if it was to do with icing or anything like that. Might have been.
DK: Right. So how often was your flight engineer shutting down an engine then?
DG: Well I, well I think during our tour he done it about ten times.
DK: Oh.
DG: Roughly.
DK: Right.
DG: I guess.
DK: And, and just the one engine each time?
DG: Yes, just the, well no he shut down two at one time and we were losing [unclear] all the time and he managed to get them back. [laughs]
DK: Strange. We'll leave that there.
DG: I don’t really understand and that is why I’ve never ─. I’ve read quite a lot of books about the war but why Hitler was so anti-Semitic.
DK: Um.
DG: You know, I’ve never seen any explanation for it.
DK: For it. No.
DG: But was it just an excuse or something?
DK: It's taken as read that he was anti-Semitic but not explaining what made him anti-Semitic.
DG: No.
DK: No.
DG: And the other thing is that I think is most important. I was going to write to the Imperial War Museum, um, I, I can understand someone like Hitler who is really a very psychopath and a bit mentally disturbed really because you know he’s got this thing about his country and the and the Germans being superior race and all that sort of thing but, I can’t what I can’t understand is if he had been in this country and he was voicing his opinions about enslaving the world for the right of England I would have said it's wrong.
DK: Yes. That's an interesting question. Why did the German people ─
DG: Why did they, why –
DK: So –
DG: Why were they all evil? I mean these fighter pilots, I mean some of them fighter pilots, one of them shot down three hundred aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DG: Now I ─, if you’re doing that to enslave the world you're bloody evil and yet you never hear people talking about them. That Galland for instance he’s another guy. In my opinion they were all bloody evil except the poor buggers who were conscripted.
DK: Yeah.
DG: But anyone who volunteered to do that in my, in my opinion they were evil.
DK: Yeah. ‘Cause they’re, they’re supporting the regime aren't they?
DG: Yes of course they are, course they are.
DK: Yes, but I guess Britain did have its fascists there was Oswald Mosley.
DG: Um.
DK: But the British people didn't, didn’t really take to him did they. They didn't follow him.
DG: No.
DK: He was a bit of a joke. He wasn't –
DG: Um.
DK: He wasn’t taken seriously as a serious fascist leader like Mussolini and Hitler was.
DG: Um.
DK: That’s an interesting question that one.
DG: It is.
DK: Why did people like Hitler so readily ─
DG: And well I’ve got a book, it’s in my bathroom I read it when I’m sitting on the toilet, about how the English people, like my nationality, they bugged the prisoners of war who were here and listened to what they were talking about and it's very sickening the way they enjoyed killing people.
DK: Um.
DG: You know I can’t imagine English people doing that.
DK: No, no.
DG: Anyway.
DK: But it was killing by the allies that was done reluctantly with the access powers they seemed to be doing it willingly and ─
DG: Oh yes, yes, um.
DK: Very strange.
DG: Well there’s a bit –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dennis James Gill
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGillDJ161121, PGillDJ1601
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force
Format
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00:38:48 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis joined the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1943 as a rear gunner. His training took place in Porthcawl on Ansons, and in Bridlington. At the Operational Training Unit, he trained on Wellingtons and Stirlings, and crewed up. He joined 199 Squadron, part of 100 Group, at RAF North Creake.
Over six months, Dennis carried out 37 operations, of which seven were as a spare gunner on Halifaxes. The remainder were on Stirlings. They were a special duties squadron carrying out jamming operations. He went several times to the Ruhr, Magdeburg and Cologne. He also recalls a difficult raid to Hamburg. He describes some of the psychological impacts on aircrew.
Dennis then went on a mechanics course in Blackpool and was demobilised shortly after.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
199 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
crewing up
fear
Halifax
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF North Creake
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/575/8844/AGoodfellowN151106.1.mp3
e5ed08535ea015c12b77d649243806fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Goodfellow, Norman
N Goodfellow
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Goodfellow, N
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Norman Goodfellow (Royal Air Force). He flew a tour of operations as a navigator with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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NG. The Bomb Aimer was from Southern Ireland, Irish Free State so he couldn’t go home on leave. [laugh] And we all used to finish up in my home town of Wakefield, in Yorkshire.
DC. I’ll just halt you there, I’ll just introduce this. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Norman Goodfellow at his home. 6th of November 2015. If I keep looking down at this is to just see that it is still working so I am not being rude, that looks ok. One thing I am always interested in, what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
NG. I was an Apprentice Engineer and I finished up in the RAF because we were a reserved occupation, the only two Services open to us was Submarine Service or RAF Service and I wasn’t going under any water at that time so.
DC. As a reserved occupation could you have carried on doing what you were doing and not join the Services?
NG. Oh yeah in fact I should have done really.
DC. So in effect you volunteered to join the Air Force.
NG. As I say that was the only service open to me to get into any forces. I couldn’t go in the Army, I couldn’t go in the Navy except for Submarine Service. I don’t know why they made the distinction, I mean somebody with more ideas than me could do that. But eh finished up in the RAF in Aircrew generally speaking Aircrew I could have finished up as an eh, as an eh a Gunner or a anything But eh when it came to entr, entrance exam I passed with such good marks that I had a choice between a Pilot and a Navigator, or at that time they called it an Observer. And eh I couldn’t imagine sitting there driving an eh eh aeroplane for hours and hours on end I couldn’t have thought about anything more boring than that. So and eh I was a draught, eh a a a drafts, learning to be a draughtsman and eh I thought that will help me in my future life and that and do decent drawings so I plumped for a Navigator and eh they accepted me as a Navigator and we went from there.
DC. So what year would this have been then?
NG. That was, I was just old enough to go in I was born in 1923 so I was seventeen then 1930, 1940.
DC.1940.
NG. And as I say I had just reached the age of entry.
DC. So can you remember what you training involved what your first unit of training was?
NG. I was an Engineer.
DC. So once you joined the Air Force what unit did you join, was it?
NG. When I joined the Air Force I was working as an Apprentice Engineer, I joined as an Apprenticeship and we were actually on war work in fact I got so bored with it, I was what they called a Vertical Borer, that was a machine, a boring machine but it stood upright. And I was doing the turret plates that tanks turned their guns on. And when you have done three of these a day [laugh] you have nothing else to worry about eh.
DC. So actually you were in the Air Force, where did your training start there, was it an Operational Training Unit?
NG. When I went into the Air Force of course I went down to where all the eh Air Crew Training starts and that is eh ACRC in London and did my basic training there turn left turn right.
DC. Was this the one at Lords Cricket Ground?
NG. Yeah St Johns Wood.
DC. St Johns Wood yeah.
NG. Just outside the cricket ground, I forgot the name of the street, well main road it was out of London. And eh it was a good walk into London but the money to spend when we got there and eh it was ACRC, Air Crew Recruiting Centre. Then from there we were, as I say we were general Air Crew then. Then they made the selection of Pilots, Navigators or Wireless Operators or Gunners and eh.
DC. So what was your next unit after that then?
NG. After that I left there, where did I finish up eh, [pause] I should, I could have, oh I went up to Carlisle that’s it and eh, on Tiger Moths. I soloed on Tiger Moths but I still wanted to stick to my original choice of Navigator.
DC. So even though you’d chosen Navigator they still got you flying the Tiger Moths?
NG. Yeah, well everybody did whither they were Gunners or whatever did some training on Tiger Moths, it was a general training scheme. And eh then the selection came after Tiger Moths and I was offered Pilot training because I did me solo on a Tiger Moth but eh I opted for Navigation.
DC. And where did you go?
NG. I went to Canada to do some flying training as well [cough].
DC. So how long were you in Canada for?
NG. Oh, seven months and eh but that was Navigational Training as well and eh when I came back, where did we go next, we moved around that much it took some remembering.
DC. Syerston, Operational Training Unit.
NG. Oh yeah that’s right.
DC. OTU at Syerston.
NG. Operational in Lincolnshire, Operational Training Unit and eh we were Crewed up there we and the Pilots were the people that picked their own Crews out of the mixture what there was there. There was a mixture of Navigators, Bomb Aimers, Air Gunners, he already got his Air Gunner.
DC. So the Pilots basically found their own Crews.
NG. Yeah personal choice.
DC. Were you put in a big Hanger and.
NG. They would just come up to you and say ‘what is your name eh and do you fancy eh flying with me.’ You know I was approached by two or three different Pilots and this one came up to me and said, well I knew him, he was a New Zealander, he got it up here. And eh he introduced himself and by that time he already got his Radio Operator who was also a New Zealander. One comes from the North Island of New Zealand eh Wireless Operator comes from the North Island of eh New Zealand and Johnnie the Pilot came from the South Island. But eh apparently I didn’t know it at the time but found out that Johnnie was rather eh was well to do in New Zealand because they owned their own properties. Farmers Boy he was actually but eh he knew his stuff when it came to flying. And eh, eh the Wireless Operator eh he was a Wireless Operator on Shipping, went from New Zealand to the coast of America so he knew his trade. So eh the three of us got together and Johnnie said ‘Is there anyone you know that eh. Eh, we are looking now for a, a Bomb Aimer. Is there anyone you know in particular?’So I thought for a minute and there was this Irish Lad, he was from Southern Ireland and he couldn’t go home on leave.
DC. A neutral Country.
NG. Well he would have been kept in Ireland they wouldn’t have let him back to England. But he had come to London to live with his Mother, his Aunt in London so he could get in the Air Force. I though the were keen so we, we, we selected him for the Wireless Operator and the Gunners all sorted themselves out really eh. The Rear Gunner he was a New Zealander and Mid Upper Gunner was eh a Lancashire lad came from Boston eh.
DC.Bolton.
NG. Anyway he came from Lancashire. So that was more or less the Crew from then on we all trained together.
DC. Then at that point did you go out to your Squadron then?
NG. Oh no,no we were a long way from that my goodness we wor.
DC. What was the next?
NG. Oh we had to go to eh eh Bombing Training first of all eh doing dummy runs on Lake Windermere and all that.
DC. So what type of aircraft were you flying during the training?
NG. In training we flew in Ansons, the old Anson and then we went onto eh, we didn’t go straight onto Lancasters.
DC. Wellingtons.
NG. Eh yeah that’s right Wimpies, Wellingtons and then we went onto a Lancaster Squadron ‘cause I always remember seeing pictures of them and eh and Johnnie did as well, the Pilot ‘cause we were all mixed friends[?]. He couldn’t go home to Australia, New Zealand rather for holidays; he wouldn’t have got back in time. So they used to come up to Yorkshire with me before. When we were on Squadron we all went to Yorkshire my Mother was busy finding names. Who could put two up, two up, two up to fit us all in and eh but we all stuck together right through the thirty Operations that we did.
DC. So your training was all on Wellingtons ?
NG. Johnnie and I trained first of all on eh the old twin winged two seater, I forgot what the hell they called them now but the others all trained on Wellingtons.
DC. And at this point you now moved to 50 Squadron.
NG. No, no this was still Training Command. We didn’t move onto an Operational Squadron until we had been through [cough] several series of training. Bombing Course, Navigational Course the lot.
DC. Heavy Conversion Unit.
NG. Yeah Heavy Conversion Unit that’s where we converted from twin engined Blenheims to four engined aircraft.
DC. Do you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit you were with?
NG. 15, Number 15 Conversion Unit where was oh yeah it was just outside Lincoln, what were it called, I had it on the tip of me tongue. I know it was within walking distance of Lincoln, five miles oh.
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. Sorry
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. This was the Heavy Conversion Unit yeah.
DC. So what type of aircraft were at the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. We started on Wellington of course and then we went onto eh Lincolns no Lincolns came after the Lancaster. [pause]
DC. Wasn’t the Halifax was it?
NG. Is that me log book?
DC. Yes.
NG. Oh, always a Gentleman.
DC. Probably sort it out.
NG. Might tell them more than I can tell [laugh] probably will.
DC It’s a history book, so there’s the Ansons, Wellingtons there, no that’s 16 OTU there right.
NG. I can’t remember what the Heavy Conversion Unit was. Still at 16 OTU, 1654 Conversion Unit, I can’t for the life of me remember where that was.
DC. So it says here you were on Stirlings.
NG. Yes, yes,yes.
DC. So Heavy Conversion Unit you are flying Stirlings, flying on Stirlings, what did you think of the Stirlings?
NG. Oh they were good Aircraft, a bit slow.
DC. Bit slow [laugh] high off the ground, big undercarriage, ok then it the Stirlings. Eh so it is Number 5 LFS, Lancaster Finishing School.
NG. Yeah.
DC. So that would be your first experience of the Lancaster was it the LFS.
NG. Yeah.
DC. What was your impression of the Lancaster after the Stirling.
NG. Well I think the Lanc was a bit more spacious than the Stirling, they were both good aircraft the Stirling was a bit crowded.
DC. So then we go to August 1944 when you have joined 50 Squadron.
NG. Oh yeah, that can tell you more than I can tell you [probably referring to his log book].
DC. Was this at Skellingthorpe.
NG. Skellingthorpe, that’s right, five miles from Lincoln.
DC. What was your impression of Skellingthorpe when you got there?
NG. It was a nice open place, lovely, plenty of room there. Yes it was grand and Lincoln was walking distance yeah it were ok there.
DC. It is a housing estate now, it is a big housing estate now. So did you used to walk into Lincoln when you were off duty?
NG. More often than using the bus yeah, there is a camp bus used to go but if you missed that you had to wait on the local bus and I think it was only once every hour from Skellingthorpe the village into Lincoln and the last one at night used to leave about eight o’clock or something ridiculous [laugh] when you were in the RAF you couldn’t get back at eight o’clock at night they would think you were daft.
DC. So what did you used to do when you were off duty in Lincoln.
NG. I used to come home and eh I had a motor bike later on. I used to come home on me motor bike.
DC. So the Pilot named here is Marris.
NG. Johnnie Marris.
DC. So you flew all your Operations with the same Crew?
NG. No, one I went with eh the eh .
DC. Jimmie Flynn.
NG. The Leader Squadron Leader Flynn it was.
DC. Oh have got that, the first of November.
NG. Yeah, he recently died.
DC. Ok that’s a shame. That was an Operation to Homburg?
NG. Well it says it there [?] Don’t ask me where on what night [little banter].
DC. Since when does a Navigator know where he was. Oh yes so how many Operations did you do altogether then?
NG. Thirty two altogether, thirty to Germany and two to Norway.
DC. And they were all at night were they? They were all night Operations.
NG. Oh no not all of them there were some day light Operations, mostly night. Towards the end there were more daylight raids for obvious reasons. [pause]
DC. So was it quite a difficult job then if you were Navigating and obviously the aircraft is being shot at and it is dark?
NG. It’s not funny at all I tell you, well it is something you have just got to put up with. I thought I was one of the luckiest one of the Crew because I had got something to do and occupy myself. But these poor blighters that were sat there in the back in the rear turret, mid upper turret they could see all the flashes that added to the scare mongering sort of thing and I couldn’t. Could hear the big bangs yes but eh I couldn’t see anything.
DC. So was it exactly the same aircraft you flew all the time. Were you allocated you own Lancaster.
NG. No.
DC. ‘Cause I notice they are all the same VNO.
NG. When the Pilot got his aircraft that one were that’s it VNN.
DC. No it was Oboe yours Oboe VNO Oboe.
NG. Sorry.
DC. Oboe, yours was Oboe.
Unknown Voice. Oboe that was the callsign, N Nan was the famous one that done over a hundred trips and featured in all the publicity shots and wartime photographs.
DC. And you have actually done an air test in this one VNN.
NG. Oh yeah.
DC. I have seen the photos.
Unknown Voice. I mean it was just luck wasn’t it, some didn’t come back from the first op some didn’t come back from the twenty ninth with one to do. So it was a sheer lottery.
DC. After you had done your Tour how did you feel then about the thirty or so Operations once your Tour was over?
NG. When me first tour was over, I was, I was just going back to the Squadron when they declared the Armistice. I think I was on boating[?] leave when the news came back that the Germans had surrendered.
DC. How did that make you feel at that point knowing it was over?
NG. Relieved [laugh] knowing it I think if I do remember rightly, I am not sure about that night. I think I finished up drunk that night.
DC. You deserved it.
NG. Quite drunk [laugh] Oh yeah I remember now we were in Lincoln that night and eh we were in. What were the name of that pub at the bottom of that street, leading up to the Lawns Hospital. Anyway it is just of the Main Street of Lincoln just underneath the bridge. And eh we were in the pub, the news broke out they declared Peace, the war was over. When we came out of course, Lincoln was all lit up, “What is happening here?” Everybody were dancing in the street anyway we staggered back to Camp and it was about two in the morning. There again all the hut lights were on curtains were down, everybody was just about blotto I think [laugh] including us. It was, had to be paid for next morning, had to clear up and sober up, yeah it was a good night.
DC. And did you remain in the Air Force after the war then.
NG. For a short while.
Unknown Voice. You went to Egypt didn’t you ‘cause the war in Japan was still continuing so.
NG. I was for a short while when I got there. When I first got there, I went to Palestine first and eh then I went to Malta. Then I was on Operational from Malta but only round the Mediterranean it weren’t anything serious and I finished up in GHQ Cairo as an Instructor.The young ladies who were putting all the notices up on the board there. So and So posted from duty back to New Zealand, Australia, India wherever they come from, there were a big board on the wall. This one were nearly crying, she said ‘I can’t find this one.’ She had been looking for about two hours and she weren’t talking to me, she was talking to the lady in charge of postings called, column. And I heard her say “What is it?” and she said ‘Morris’ she said ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Several Morris’s ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Then she read off a number, she read of a heap of numbers. When she got to one I stopped her and said “Try Marris.” She looked at me as if I had gone daft but, so she went through all the cards again “Marris?” I said that’s right that’s his name. She looked at me in amazement she said ‘You know all these off by heart?’ I said “Off course I do.” She had been struggling for hours to find this Morris. [laugh].
DC. So did you remain in touch with your Crew after the war?
NG. That day when I knew where he was and eh, and eh he was on his way back to New Zealand then I found out he was staying overnight in Cairo. And eh to my big surprise he was married. I thought I am going to say hello to him and shake his hand and say cheerio again, we had already said cheerio. So I went to the Hotel where he was registered and low and behold the girl he was with, he had married was a Nurse from the Lawns Hospital in Lincoln who had been my girlfriend. It were a bit embarrassing he didn’t know at the time but, [laugh]. Johnnie took her back to Australia, to New Zealand with him.
DC. Did you manage to stay in touch with the Crew after the war?
NG. Oh yes for quite a while, then sadly they went one by one, yeah.
DC. So how do you feel now looking back over seventy odd years your time in Bomber Command and the [unclear].
NG. Absolutely wasted.
DC. Really?
NG. What was achieved, we could have spent all that money and all them years making a better World than it is today. It was a waste of time, a waste of man power, I don’t think they will get anywhere with war, they will have to find a way to settle the differences somehow or other.
DC. I am hoping you know in the future people will be listening to this and what you said there and take some note of it. OK I think we’ll stop there thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Norman Goodfellow
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodfellowN151106
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:30:51 audio recording
Description
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Norman Goodfellow, born in Wakefield, in 1923. Before the war he worked as an apprentice engineer. Joining the RAF at seventeen he was offered the choice of Pilot or Navigator. Although Norman chose to be a Navigator he initially trained as a Pilot on Tiger Moth aircraft on which he soloed. He was a posted to Canada as a trainee Navigator,then posted back to the OTU at Syerston where he met his Crew. Norman completed his training flying in Ansons, Wellingtons, Blenheims and Stirlings before converting to the Lancaster. Posted to 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe he completed thirty two Operations. He talks about his social life in Lincoln, the aircraft he flew and celebrations on Armistice day. Then posted to the Middle East he met up with his old Pilot in Cairo who was returning to New Zealand. Norman kept in touch with his Crew until sadly they all passed away.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Egypt
England--Lincolnshire
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Blenheim
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/PHowB1601.2.jpg
fda853d50fe72cf8e047663a7acfeb5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/AHowB161116.2.mp3
66e2d87ba36f0e32044199f5f130f194
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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How, Bernie
B How
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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How, B
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bernie How (1924 - 2021, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2016-11-16
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BH: You’ve parked in the yard have you?
DK: I’ve parked in the yard. Yeah. Is it ok there?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, 16th of November 2016, interviewing Mr Bernie How.
BH: No E. H O W.
DK: H O W. Yeah. Ok if I just leave that there. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still going. I’m not being rude. Alright. What I would like to ask you first of all Mr How, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BH: Well I was at school. I was born in ’24. So when war broke out I was fourteen.
DK: Right. And what, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was there anything that drove you?
BH: Well the next village, which was Freckenham, there’s a big house there. It was owned by a lady-in-waiting to the Queen so it’s name was Freckenham House and the RAF commandeered it, put air crew to sleep there rather than sleep on the station.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they could get sleep.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Away from where possible bombing you know. And of course these air crew, I was born in a public house –
DK: Oh right.
BH: So we was the centre of activity with them. It was only five minutes’ walk from there, Freckenham House, to my dad’s pub.
DK: Right.
BH: And they used to flood the place you know. And of course they –
DK: They liked to drink did they?
BH: Well liked to drink. Liked to chat. The stories what they were going through at that time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Some were like this, even then.
DK: Really. So what year would this have been then?
BH: This would have been 1940/41.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah
DK: Ok.
BH: Early part. They were flying Wellingtons mainly at the start and of course they’d come down and we was kids, we wanted to know all about what they were doing and you got chatting to them. You got to know them as Bob, Harry, Jim or whatever and I thought to myself I’d like to do that and that’s where it started. As I grow into the fifteen, sixteen, seventeen I volunteered for the RAF.
DK: So you were seventeen when you volunteered then?
BH: I was seventeen when I volunteered and I weren’t quite eighteen when I got my number. In other words I was in the air force before I was eighteen.
DK: Right. So where, where was your initial posting to then? Where was it?
BH: Well we went to Cardington where everybody –
DK: Yeah.
BH: Went then. And thousands upon thousands and thousands. Got your uniform and your number and then we was posted to, or I was, to Skegness to do what they called then square bashing.
DK: Right.
BH: In other words –
DK: Yeah.
BH: To learn a bit of marching and then eventually I found my way to Cosford on a flight mechanics course.
DK: Right.
BH: There was nothing from the RAF then to say I would eventually be air crew.
DK: Oh right.
BH: But during the flight mechanics course they come round, different sergeants or warrant officers or whatever they were, ‘Any volunteers here for flight engineer?’ So I volunteered ‘cos you got through the flight mechanics course and the next posting was RAF St Athan where you trained to be a flight engineer and that was it.
DK: So, what, what did the training as a flight engineer involve then?
BH: Well sitting around a desk and listening to a corporal or a sergeant or even someone higher telling you all about the aircraft you had chosen.
DK: Right.
BH: To fly. Inside and out to quite how many tanks were in each wing and how much they held and the general feeling of the, of the aircraft itself.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I went in for Stirlings. They come around before you’ve done your course. Would you like to fly Stirlings, Halifax or Lancasters or whatever? Well I volunteered for Stirlings so therefore everything was –
DK: Based on the Stirling.
BH: Yeah. On the course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Course we eventually passed and I came to a place just the other side of Cambridge known as Wratting Common. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: A conversion unit. My crew had already been together two or three months flying two engine aircraft.
DK: Right.
BH: So they were posted to Wratting Common for a conversion unit to four.
DK: This is the heavy conversion unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This is when I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they’d known each other for several weeks or even months before they met me ‘cause they didn’t have engineers on a two engine aircraft.
DK: So what did you think when you first met your crew?
BH: Well they come, you just sit there and eventually the pilot come up to you and introduced himself and this kind of thing. And he said, ‘Would you like to be our flight engineer?’ ‘Oh’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘Bernie.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer Bernie?’ ‘Yeah. That’s ok.’ And that was it. I joined them and we started flying at the conversion unit and eventually finished up at Lakenheath.
DK: Can you remember your pilot, the pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yeah. He was Canadian. We had three Canadians in the crew actually. His surname was Harker.
DK: Harker. Right.
BH: H A R K E R.
DK: Right.
BH: He was, at that time, a pilot officer.
DK: And he came from Canada.
BH: Yeah. Three of them come from Canada.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Him, the navigator and the rear gunner. Yeah. Two from London. Myself here and the mid upper gunner lived in Bury St Edmunds.
DK: Did you feel quite confident when you met your crew for the first time then?
BH: Yeah. I wasn’t very big as you can see but I was a confident little person you know. Yeah.
DK: And did, do you think they had confidence in you as well?
BH: They must have done. Whether they talked to someone before they approached me I don’t know. I never asked that question but I have a feeling they may have done.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So at the heavy conversion unit then the whole crew then trained there.
BH: That’s right.
DK: Initially.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And trained for a few weeks and eventually a posting come through. We was moved to Lakenheath and joined 199 Squadron.
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: Yeah. And that’s where I started off.
DK: So all your operations then were on Stirlings or –
BH: No. We converted. What happened was after Lakenheath we moved because Lakenheath runway started breaking up.
DK: Right.
BH: So we had to move somewhere else and we went to North Creake in Norfolk.
DK: Right.
BH: And the other squadron what was there moved to, not far down the road to, still in Norfolk, I forget the name
DK: Ok.
BH: But they went there and we went to North Creake.
DK: So at this point had you flown any operations at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Right.
BH: We flew about eight from Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: All on Stirlings.
BH: All on Stirlings yeah. Then we went to North Creake and continued there and one particular night we’d got mines on board, sea mines what we dropped in different coves in France or Germany or wherever. On take-off we crashed.
DK: This was at Lakenheath or –
BH: No. This was at North Creake.
DK: North Creake. Yeah.
BH: We crashed and nobody was hurt much. The pilot got knocked about a little bit.
DK: Oh.
BH: But we were just leaving the ground and the tyre burst and down it went bang bang bang and the next day the pilot went into hospital. Not for long. Had some minor injuries and after he come out we was posted to a place in Yorkshire to convert to Halifaxes. Riccall in Yorkshire.
DK: Was, was the problem with the Stirling‘s undercarriages at all? Is that why it -?
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Did you actually come off the runway or did you -?
BH: No. We were still on the –
DK: Runway.
BH: We finished on the airfield, off the runway but -
DK: Yeah.
BH: We hadn’t left the ground hardly. May just about have. Very close, you know.
DK: Was that a bit worrying with the mines on board?
BH: Well that was the thought, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But we were all young. I was only nineteen I think.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You hadn’t got a lot of care in the world really.
DK: So how, as the aircraft has crashed how did you get out? Were you got the escape hatches or -?
BH: That’s right. Well the normal entrance to our, that’s the one I got out of. I think, I think the pilot scrambled out of his hatchway.
DK: Right.
BH: Because by that time we was not high. It was low on –
DK: Yeah.
BH: The undercarriage had gone and it wasn’t a big drop.
DK: So what was your thoughts then about the Stirling as an aircraft?
BH: I thought it was a beautiful aircraft. To fly especially. The problem was it couldn’t get the height.
DK: Right.
BH: I think its maximum was about thirteen or fourteen thousand where the Lancaster and Halifax could reach up to twenty thousand
DK: Did you feel a bit exposed at those low levels then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But once up there. A beautiful aircraft to fly. Yeah. It was really.
DK: So on the Stirling then you were the flight engineer. What would your role be?
BH: Well mainly there was fourteen petrol tanks. Seven in each wing and mainly to control them as one, gradually making sure you didn’t lose the balance. In other words not too much left in there or not enough in there and that kind of thing. Control of the petrol. That was the main job but we also had to watch out for, you was also a stand-by gunner if anything happened to the gunners.
DK: Right.
BH: So you had sort of a little training before to fire a gun if necessary and -
DK: Did you, did you help the pilot, sorry, did you help the pilot at all or –
BH: No. That was mainly, in our case the bomb aimer.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Really, when you think he hadn’t got a lot to do until you got where you was heading for so he used to mainly sit in the number two seat.
DK: Right. So you would be sitting behind them.
BH: Well we didn’t, as an engineer we hardly had a seat.
DK: Oh. Right.
BH: I think there was a lift up. What I remember you could just have a seat but mainly you was up and down looking at the engines and –
DK: So for the duration of the raid you were mostly standing up then.
BH: Walking or standing. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember any of the places you went to with the Stirling or -?
BH: Oh.
DK: Obviously some were mining operations.
BH: Yeah but yeah, the Frisian islands which was up North Germany.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Getting towards Russia.
DK: Yeah
BH: That was a dodgy one. As you’ve heard talk just recently of the navy having a convoy -
DK: Yeah.
BH: To Russia. Well that was mainly the same although we was up there and they was on water it was mainly a similar route to what they were taking.
DK: Oh right.
BH: And that was a, a dodgy one.
DK: Did you, did you fly on the Stirlings to any of the German towns and cities at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. In fact the last one was a small town and the name was Plauen or Plauen. It was a small town something like the size of Ipswich or Norwich. We bombed that and this is the last, last trip we had.
DK: Right.
BH: We didn’t know it but that was and what happened we dropped the bombs and then the normal procedure is to bank around outside the target and head for home. Well our skipper panicked. He must have panicked. He turned around and went straight back over the target again so we were meeting other aircraft what were coming in. How we didn’t hit one we’d never know. Nothing was said on the way home. We was dead quiet. No one hardly spoke. They knew –
DK: Yeah.
BH: What had happened and we arrived and debriefing and one thing, nothing was said at the time but the next day, about midday, we was finished flying.
DK: Right.
BH: I didn’t have any reason at all. We’d, mind you we’d done thirty five trips so we was getting, but it was decided that the pilot had panicked.
DK: Right.
BH: And he probably wasn’t fit to carry on so the whole crew was disbanded.
DK: So you did thirty five operations all together then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And how many of those were on Stirlings?
BH: Well, Halifaxes, I would think, at a guess this would be.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Stirlings would be something like twenty two or twenty three. Something like that. And the rest were Halifaxes. Yeah.
DK: So, so you, you were moved to, from the Stirlings then to the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you moved base as well then did you?
BH: No. We went up to Riccall.
DK: Riccall. Right.
BH: To convert to Halifaxes. That’s where the Halifaxes were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Mainly in Yorkshire. Nearly all Halifaxes up there and we was up there about three or four weeks and converted and we come back to North Creake.
DK: Right.
BH: And North Creake was then –
DK: Halifaxes.
BH: Nearly all, gradually overtook.
DK: Yeah. And that was still 199 Squadron.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So 199 Squadron converted from the Stirling.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: To the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were then flying the Halifax. What was your opinion of that aircraft?
BH: Well as I said a little while ago it could get much higher. I think it was lighter and it was probably a little bit more compact. Yeah. It was a lovely aircraft.
DK: Would you have a preference over the two types? The Stirling to the –
BH: I loved the Stirling and I think the whole crew did. Probably when we was taken off, I wouldn’t say it was tears but we were disappointed that we weren’t going to fly a Stirling anymore but the Halifax was good. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So as a flight engineer on the Halifax then what was your –
BH: Similar.
DK: Very similar.
BH: Similar.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you’re watching -
BH: Yeah.
DK: The petrol tanks -
DK: That was my main job. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The only other thing what may have went wrong? If the engines overheated well, we had to, what we called feathered them. In other words stop them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Did that happen on any occasion? You had to -
BH: Oh yeah we came home on three engines.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A few times. Yeah.
DK: And what, what had caused the engine to be shut down? Was it damage or –
BH: Overheating or things like, or wasn’t powerful enough and the pilot, we called him the skipper, then would say, ‘Bernie something wrong with the inner starboard. It’s not pulling.’ Then we had a chat about it we called what they called feather it. That’s when the props -
DK: Yeah.
BH: And went back onto three. No doubt that was done hundreds of times in different aircrafts.
DK: Yeah. So when you got back after an operation then how did you feel then as you arrived back at base?
BH: Relieved. Yeah. We used to go in for debriefing and you had a little drop of rum. That was a recognised thing. Then you went back to the mess and had a meal. It could have been anything from midnight to 8 o’clock in the morning but the meal was there. They were waiting to cook you a meal.
DK: Yeah. And the debriefing then was that, was that very intense? Did they ask you lots of questions?
BH: Well they wanted to know what had happened. What you saw. Did you see any fighter aircraft? Did you? Anything really. Yeah.
DK: So was there any occasions when your aircraft was damaged by flak or night fighters?
BH: Yeah. We got hit once or twice. Not seriously. We did get one engine hit so we had to stop that one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But not as bad as some of them. Some were really bad.
DK: So there was no occasion you were attacked by aircraft then.
BH: Well we was attacked by them but not, not intense. No. No. They were probably floating around seeing anything and if they happened to see a bomber they’d fire and hit it or miss it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they’d move on to another one or, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
DK: Can you recall any of your targets then over, over Germany or was there -
BH: What, the towns?
DK: The actual towns, yeah.
BH: Well we went to this one. The last one -
DK: Yeah.
BH: Plauen. We went to Dortmund. Cologne. Just the normal, you know the ones.
DK: Was Berlin one at all?
BH: No. I didn’t go to Berlin.
DK: You didn’t. No. Ok.
BH: We didn’t go to Berlin. We didn’t go to, where was the other big one?
DK: Hamburg.
BH: Hamburg. We didn’t go to Hamburg. No. I lost a friend. He lived in the next village. He was a flight engineer too and he was stationed in Yorkshire on Halifaxes and he copped his lot after five trips, over Hamburg. And they haven’t found anything of him or his crew since.
DK: No.
BH: So he was blown to bits. That’s what we all assumed anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So of your thirty five operations then what, what, did you do after that?
BH: Well we was all went different places. I think the three Canadians went to Canada back. Not together necessarily.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I finished up in air, air control. Flying control up in Inverness. A very small station.
DK: Right.
BH: There were very few aircraft and I worked there and stayed there until we finished with the RAF.
DK: And what year was that you came out the RAF then?
BH: Late, late ‘45. I’m not too certain of the month but late ‘45. Yeah.
DK: And what was, what was your career after, after the RAF then? What did you do?
BH: Well I left the building trade when I joined and I went back.
DK: Right. So looking back now after all these years how do you feel about your time in the RAF?
BH: Enjoyed it. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. We did really. Yeah. Because you met different people and that kind of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. We really enjoyed it. Yeah.
DK: Did you, were you able to stay in touch with your crew at all or -?
BH: Oh yes. We had numerous –
DK: Reunions.
BH: Reunions. Mainly in Leicester because Leicester was central or near central as you could get.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And we went there several years, once a year.
DK: The Canadians as well did they -?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Come over? Yeah.
BH: Well the whole squadron.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Squadron reunions. I mean everyone was invited but we started off, I think the first one was around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty attended but of course that gradually went down. People was ill or died. The last one we attended was eighteen.
DK: Right.
BH: And the chappie who organised it decided that, you know, that was it. So he got up on the last one and told us that this was the last reunion. Yeah.
DK: The last reunion for 199 Squadron.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are any of your crew still alive do you know?
BH: No. They’re all gone. Yeah.
DK: And can, can you name the whole crew still or -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Blimey. Who was, can you name the gunners?
BH: Yeah. Stan Pallant.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And Stanley Pallant was the upper, upper gunner.
DK: Yeah. The rear gunner?
BH: The rear gunner was a Canadian. I just forget his name now. Anyway, the bomb aimer was Alf Salter, come from London. The wireless operator was Harry Durrell. He come from London. The pilot’s name was Ernie Harker as I told you, come from Canada. The navigator was Johnny Russell, come from Canada. The mid upper gunner was Stanley Pallant, come from Bury St Edmunds and the rear gunner was, I know his name as well as my own but he was the odd one out. He, he didn’t socially mix with us. Very seldom. All the rest, at North Creake there was a pub off, just off the station. It was The Black Swan but it was always called the Mucky Duck so it always arranged for the Mucky Duck. I just can’t think of the rear gunner’s name.
DK: It will probably come to you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So did you find that was important then to socialise with your crew and -?
BH: Oh yeah. The crews mostly were an item. They did probably talk to other members but you mixed mainly with your own crew nearly all the time.
DK: And, and was, there were officers in your crew as well.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And was that an issue with officers and non-officers or did they -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They met. They socialised together.
BH: Oh yeah. Very much so yeah. You didn’t know them as officers. They was Harry or Alf or whatever, you know.
DK: And you think that was very important for the crew.
BH: Yes. Oh yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I’ve got a picture of the crew somewhere. Oh. That might interest you. That’s me there.
DK: Oh. Oh wow. This is –
BH: War pictures on the inside.
DK: [unclear] Oh right. Members of a Norfolk airfield. Key role in wartime operations. [pause] So this is about RAF North Creake then.
BH: Sorry?
DK: About RAF North Creake.
BH: North Creake. Yeah.
DK: So the control tower is still there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s now a bed and breakfast.
DK: Oh yes. Of course it is. Yes. I keep meaning to pay them a visit actually and stay there the night.
BH: Yeah. They’re in operation there. I know them well. Both of them, you know.
DK: Is this your actual aircraft that crashed then or was it –?
BH: That’s the one, yeah
DK: That’s the one.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was September 1944.
BH: Yeah. I’ve got a picture of it.
[pause]
BH: Well that’s my crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. And that’s the Halifax behind it.
BH: That’s the Halifax. Yeah. [pause] Yes, interesting paper really.
DK: Yeah.
[pause]
BH: That’s the aircraft again.
DK: Oh wow. So that’s where it’s, it’s taken the wing off hasn’t it?
BH: Yeah. The wing come right off one of them. Yeah.
[pause]
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Well that’s all the Stirling. That’s all different.
DK: The Stirlings. Yeah.
BH: Just a book of Stirlings. Yeah.
DK: That’s actually the photos from there isn’t it?
BH: That’s the one again.
DK: So that’s the Short Stirling in action.
BH: That’s right yeah.
DK: So that’s the squadron signal publication. Aircraft number 96.
BH: These are just pictures taken at Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: That’s taken at Wratting Common. That’s more.
DK: Are those, those are sea mines aren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying two of those –
BH: That’s right.
DK: When you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh yeah. I see here it says sea mines on the back.
BH: That’s the aircraft again. Yeah. We’ve got different bits of paper. That’s the crew, the whole crew of –
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: You’ll find us down there somewhere.
DK: So this is all the air crew that served with 199 at some time.
BH: At that time.
DK: At some point. At that time. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There you are. Yeah.
BH: That’s North Creake.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I hadn’t had that long actually.
DK: I must pay a visit at some point.
BH: Yeah. Bed and breakfast. They’ve got the whole control tower. I think they’ve got four bedrooms. Yeah.
DK: So that’s the crew there then. So that’s. Where are they?
BH: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: So if I, just for the recording here so this is, that’s Harker there is it?
BH: The one with the hat on yeah.
DK: That’s Harker. So from left to right.
BH: Stanley Pallant.
DK: Stanley Pallant.
BH: Harry Durrell from London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Myself. That’s the one I just can’t think of his –
DK: Right.
BH: That would be on here.
DK: Is he, is he listed on there?
BH: Yeah. Sewell.
DK: Sewell. So kneeling down there is Sewell.
BH: Then –
DK: Harker and then –
BH: Bomb aimer. Alf Salter
DK: Alf Salter, right.
BH: And Johnny Russell. The Canadian navigator.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I noticed here just in the article it mentions about, so you flew on Operation Overlord.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what was that like then? Did you realise what was happening when you –
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Went on operation? They did –
BH: Briefed.
DK: So at the briefing they told you that was –
BH: Oh Yeah.
DK: That was D-Day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So what was your role then on D-Day?
BH: Well it was a similar thing. We patrolled over the water, you know, the Channel, dropping things to disrupt their, the German navigator or whatever.
DK: Their radar.
BH: Radar. Yeah.
DK: So what was it you were dropping then? Was it Window?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Kind of. Yeah.
DK: So you were dropping Window then to disrupt the –
BH: We were just hoping that would distract them. It probably did. Yeah.
DK: So can you remember how long you were in the air for over Normandy doing this?
BH: Well the trip itself from the station, four to five hours. So we were probably hovering around there for three hours anyway. Yeah.
DK: And did you see any of the ships then?
BH: You could see about - we were flying around about five thousand I think. You could see action. Yeah.
DK: So you could see the invasion fleet.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was the sky quite crowded then with aircraft.
BH: Oh yes. Yeah. All sorts, yeah.
DK: So at the briefing then and they told you this is, this is D-day what was your feelings then?
BH: Well we probably shook for a minute or two you know. Mind you I think the whole country knew it was coming.
DK: Right.
BH: Probably the people living near where they left from. They knew more than lots of people knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And, and so you got back from the D-Day operation. How did you feel then about the –?
BH: Well then we heard the story in the papers and different things. What had happened?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your operations then were all in 1944 were they or -?
BH: No.
DK: ’43. ’44.
BH: Mostly I think, I don’t think, early ‘44 and we mainly went into ‘45 as well.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your thirty fifth operation was –
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was in 1945 then. And that’s when you were taken off operations.
BH: Yeah. It was very sudden. You know we went to bed that night. No knowledge of finishing.
DK: Right.
BH: The next day we was on the train to Yorkshire.
DK: How did you feel then knowing you didn’t have to do any more operations?
BH: Well we didn’t know exactly then but we had a good idea that was it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That we wouldn’t be recalled and that kind of thing and we went up to that big place in Yorkshire near Darlington. There’s army there, the navy and air force. I forget the station name now. We all went there and that’s where we split up. Some went that way and some went that way and so on and as I say I went to Inverness.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I’ll, I’ll stop that there.
[machine paused]
DK: I’ll just put that back on. I noticed here 199 Squadron was part of 100 Group.
BH: Yes.
DK: So what was special about 100 Group?
BH: I don’t really know. Whether was the area where, like around here was all 3 Group. Mildenhall was headquarters for 3 Group. In Yorkshire it were 4 Group.
DK: Yeah.
BH: What was it in Lincoln? 5.
DK: 5.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 5 and 1. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So 100 Group. Did they do anything out of the ordinary? Or -?
BH: Well not really. We dropped mines and bombs and we also did Window which is where you went and dropped the Window in front of the main force. As they come behind you you dropped all this stuff to divert the Germans again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: More or less what happened on D-Day. Similar thing.
DK: To disrupt the German radar.
BH: Well that’s –
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was the idea.
DK: The idea. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Probably did work but probably not all the time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bernie How
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHowB161116, PHowB1601
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:34:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie How was 14 when war was declared and remembers aircrew socialising at his father's pub. He volunteered for the RAF at 17 and trained as a flight engineer on Stirlings. He describes a crash on take-off in a Stirling. He completed 35 operations, initially on Stirlings and later on Halifaxes flying from RAF North Creake with 199 Squadron. His operations included mine laying, bombing over Germany and patrols over the Channel dropping Window as part of the Normandy campaign. After their pilot was thought to have panicked during an operation, he and his crew were suddenly taken off operations. He then served in air control prior to demobilisation in 1945. He discusses his crew and how they kept in touch, attending reunions for many years.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Plauen
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
199 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Lakenheath
RAF North Creake
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
RAF Wratting Common
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/592/8861/PJoynerJH1601.2.jpg
ff67cf547f2ebab0feec8e670ac8638a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/592/8861/AJoynerJH161021.2.mp3
89510ebc25c0e353bb7aacf9484870fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Joyner, John
John Howard Joyner
J H Joyner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Joyner, JH
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with John Joyner (1924 - 2016, Royal Air Force), his memoir and scrap book. He flew operations as an air gunner with 189 and 101 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Joyner and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So let’s just make, make sure we’ve got the sound up. So this is David Kavanagh on the — where are we? 21st of October 2016, interviewing Mr John Joyner. [background noise] And the thing is, if I keep looking over like this I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s still working.
JJ: Of course.
DK: ‘Cause I got caught out before and it suddenly stopped.
JJ: How long is the interview?
DK: As long as, as long as you like.
JJ: Go on. Carry on.
DK: What, what I’d like to ask you ask first of all, and I always ask this question, is, what were you doing immediately before the war?
JJ: What was I doing before the war? As I may recall that, um, I was working at a warehouse, at the Co-op, the CWS in London, and like a lot of other people I joined various organisations. In my case I joined the —
Ann: ATC
JJ: ATC. That’s right, the Air Training Corps.
DK: Air Training Corps, yep.
JJ: And we had the opportunity to fly then, you see, which was most interesting, apart from which it, extended my education, things like algebra and geometry and stuff I’d never encountered before. So it was like an extra, extra-curriculum for me. Most useful.
DK: So, what aircraft types did you fly in the ATC? Go up in the ATC?
JJ: In the ATC I think — you have the advantage of me now because you have this recording but let’s see —
DK: Would it be the Tiger Moth, would it?
JJ: That’s right. The Tiger Moth, yes, yes, yes. ‘Cause that was a dual seater, the Tiger Moth, and then we went on to four engine aircraft, two engine aircraft, and that was the Wellington. And that was when I had my head in the astrodome in the fuselage because we didn’t have a mid-upper turret. Our rear gunner, sadly dead now, was smaller than me so he was sort of, fell into the, fell into the nomenclature, the title of rear gunner, he could fit nicely into that space.
DK: Was height a big consideration when you were —
JJ: I think so really rather than somebody or other because you’d have to fold yourself to get into the turret. There wasn’t a great deal of room there.
DK: Just stepping back a little bit. What made you want to join the RAF? Because were you called up? Or what made you — as opposed to say the army or navy?
JJ: Again, that’s in the narrative that I provided but I think it was interesting, thought provoking, you know, flying.
DK: Did the Battle of Britain have any influence on you?
JJ: I think not. But you see, after all, I think I spoke about 1940. Well this was of course, that was of course, the Battle of Britain. When Britain came face to face with the enemy and you just wanted to take part and there were so many interesting things to do.
DK: Yeah. Was it, was it — how did you feel then about joining the RAF? Was it, I mean, you’d seen the Battle of Britain. Was it — did you want to be a fighter pilot or, was there anything that sort of drove you to —
JJ: I just wanted to take part.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: I wanted to take part. At the time, of course, the idea of going into aircrew seemed distant but as to — no, it was the idea of joining the RAF to begin with. I think maybe because, perhaps, the local branch was rather more for me. But I think it suited me more the idea of possibly flying rather than marching up and down.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: Mind you, commendable as these other services were and are. Yes.
DK: So, can, can you remember your first posting in the RAF, because you would have done your initial training, where you went to first of all?
JJ: Yes, well, because you see, it was decided that it’s in that account. But we were all sent to a place called Heaton Baths, swimming baths, and the idea was that we swam up. Those who could swim, could swim a length, and they were posted to Scotland where there were no swimming facilities. Whereas, if I’d used my head and not been able to swim I could have gone to Sutton Hoo, Weston Super Mare, or somewhere like that, I forget. It’s in the book somewhere.
DK: So, you showed you could swim and then they sent you to Scotland? [laugh]
JJ: That’s right. The swimmers went up there.
DK: It seems strange as it’s the Air Force. I can understand if you were joining the navy or something. [laugh]
Ann: Extraordinary, isn’t it?
DK: So, can you remember whereabouts in Scotland you went?
JJ: Oh yes. At St Andrews.
DK: St Andrews.
JJ: St Andrews. Actually at the university.
DK: Oh, right, okay.
JJ: Oh yes. It’s in there. We were billeted at a place called Rusacks Marine Hotel. That was first of all and then on to the university itself, which by that time had been taken over by the RAF. So we used to do our — we used to do our marching up and down the seafront there, jumping from one concrete block to another, and then eventually we were, we were posted to — let’s see. Yes, I think that was when we went to — they suddenly decided that we should all go for selection to Manchester.
DK: Right.
JJ: And so regardless of the fact that one of us had actually soloed, they made us all air gunners.
DK: So did you actually, um, take part in pilot training?
JJ: Well, only in as far as the, as the second pilot in a, in a Tiger Moth. That’s all.
DK: Right.
JJ: Not in the heavier stuff at all, no.
DK: So you were then allocated as a gunner?
JJ: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So, did you then go off for gunnery training at that point?
JJ: Oh yes, yes.
DK: And can you remember where that was?
JJ: Yes. That was in Wales.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: For the moment it escapes me.
Ann: Stormy Down, was it?
JJ: Pardon?
Ann: Stormy Down, was it?
JJ: Stormy Down. I think that would be right. Yes, I suppose so.
Ann: Sorry about me interfering.
DK: No, that’s okay. Don’t worry.
Ann: You see, John’s old and some things he can’t remember.
DK: It’s okay.
Ann: But I can remember. I’ve heard it so many times that I can come in with the odd name occasionally.
DK: You see, what we can do with the recording — obviously we won’t have a rough cut like this —
Ann: No, no, no.
DK: We’ll edit the bits out and, you know, we’ll just —
Ann: It’ll just be a story.
DK: A story, yes. Please do, you know.
JJ: Voices. Voices from the past.
DK: Voices from the past. That’s what it is. All our yesterdays. But what I was going to say is, so, for the benefit of the recording I know you’ve written it down, but what did the gunnery training actually involve?
JJ: Well, we sat in darkness to identify silhouettes of enemy aircraft and had to make a note of these, you know, because we were going to spend most of our time in the dark because by that time Bomber Command was flying at night, but not during the day, do you see?
DK: Yeah.
JJ: And so, we sat in there and then we went up in the, I think you mentioned the plane I was in, a dual, dual —
DK: The Avro Anson, was it?
JJ: Yes, that’s right. There was room for three gunners in there and we each fired into a drogue pulled by some unfortunate plane, de Havilland or something or other, and the idea was that we painted the nose of our bolts of ammunition with wet paint.
DK: Right.
JJ: Each of us is in primary colours so that these poor WAAFs, when the drogue was finally dropped over the airfield, they could identify how many hits, if any, you’d made on the drogue.
DK: And, how, how was your gunnery? Was it any good?
JJ: Well, it’s difficult to say because, you see, I can’t remember about my prowess but what I did do is that when I went finally for the interview, which is also in that account, they asked me a question about, not about gunnery, but it was about some superficial enquiry which I couldn’t remember. So they said, ‘Do you want to be a, do you want to be an air gunner?’ So I said, ‘Yes, please.’ So they said, ‘Right, you’ve passed.’ Because they closed down the Welsh station because it was going to be used for a — German officer POWs. So they wanted a nice, nice tidy finish. So I went on there. I don’t suppose it affected my skills as an air gunner in any way but, you know, that was all they had to —
DK: So, at that point you’d become a newly qualified gunner then?
JJ: That’s right, an air gunner.
DK: Air gunner.
JJ: It’s, it’s in the book.
Ann: If I’d known that’s what our lives depended on. All a shambles. [slight laugh]
DK: Well, this is the thing. The stories are coming out now.
Other: Oh yeah, I bet some of them —
JJ: We all had our wings and we met and posed for the camera in Trafalgar Square, London.
DK: Ah, so at that point then as a newly trained, newly trained air gunner, where was your next posting, the Operational Training Unit?
JJ: Well, I can’t remember, but what we did they piled us all in one enormous room and then the pilot just picked people out at random, who he wanted in his crew.
DK: How did you feel that worked? It’s very unusual that you were all piled in together and had to sort yourselves out. Did it, did it work well?
JJ: Well, hopefully. I mean but, you see, where is it now? There were forty seven casualties, deaths, on Bomber Command training, so clearly there was some of the skills, some of the skills were not as sharp as they might have been or, alternatively, they met with some terribly bad luck, you know.
DK: So when you’re in this big hall and you’re sorting the crews out, this pilot approached you, did he? He came up to you?
JJ: As far as I’m aware, yes.
DK: And can you remember his name, the pilot?
JJ: Oh, MacQuitty.
DK: Sorry, could you say that again?
JJ: It’s in there, yes, MacQuitty. He was —
DK: MacQuitty.
JJ: He came from —
DK: Sorry. What was his first name?
Ann: Tasmania.
JJ: Tasmania.
DK: And what was the first name?
JJ: MacQuitty It’s in there.
DK: It’s in there. MacQuitty.
JJ: Okay? Yes. MacQuitty
Ann: His surname.
JJ: Okay?
DK: Yes. MacQuitty and he was Tasmanian.
JJ: Yes, that’s right. Now, of the crew, when I organised the reunion in 1999, we were all there bar two, the wireless operator, who was dead, and the skipper, who was dead.
DK: MacQuitty.
JJ: But the remaining five of us: flight engineer, navigator, myself, mid upper, and rear gunner. So it was a very good effort.
DK: Can you, can you remember their names now, the whole crew?
JJ: Oh yes, it’s all there. It’s in the book.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Sorry but —
DK: No, no. Don’t worry. So once the crew‘s got together with MacQuitty which — can you remember where you went to then, which Operational Training Unit?
JJ: Yes, that’s right. OTU. It’s on there. Excuse me, could I?
DK: Sure.
JJ: Is it there or not? Oh, it’s in the other one [background noise]
DK: [pause] Yes. It says the OTU.
JJ: Upper Heyford.
DK: Upper Heyford.
JJ: That’s right. Yes. And as you see, apart from these four there’s another two at the back, Waddington and, Coningsby. Yes. But do carry on.
DK: Sorry, and I mean — so, so once you’re at the Operational Training Unit, can you remember which type of aircraft you trained on there?
JJ: Oh, it would be the Wellington.
DK: Right.
JJ: Yes, because that was the first aircraft we used as a crew. But of course I didn’t have a mid-upper turret. I used to stand with my head in the astrodome and I was supposed to be looking out for — trying to avoid a collision with other aircraft on the circuits and bumps, you know, because we were all going round and round this airfield, landing and taking off, you see.
DK: Right, and, and did you decide with the other gunner as to who would be the mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner?
JJ: No. It was decided for us.
DK: Oh right. So, you, you were told you were going to be the mid-upper gunner.
JJ: I think the choice was limited. He was a slighter, less taller person than me and yes, that was the way it just worked out, that’s all. The others, of course, the others were trained crew members. They’d been to Canada and all sorts, you know.
DK: So, the pilot was Australian?
JJ: Yes.
DK: Were the other rest of the crew all British?
JJ: Yes. The navigator was English, the — as you say, [unclear] British. The bomb aimer was a Scot and so was the engineer, was a Scot.
DK: So after training at the OTU can you remember where you went to then?
JJ: Well, that would have been the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Right.
JJ: Going from Wellingstons into Lancs? Yes I think so, yes, Lancs. But then of course we had a four engined aircraft and I had a turret. And one anecdote that’s perhaps not in the book is that the rear gunner, who had a heated suit found his leg was burning so he asked to leave the turret and come forward and he passed under me in the mid-upper turret, and I reported him passing through, and the skipper put the aircraft in quite a [unclear] down, in a nose dive down to oxygen level. He’d got a short circuit in his heated suit which was burning his leg. But he recovered fully and off he went again.
DK: You never had that problem with — did you used to wear a heated suit as well?
JJ: No. I don’t think so. I had fur-lined Irvin jacket I think. Yes, no, no, I had a - No, I think it was only the posh members up the front who had Irvin jackets. No, I just had an all-over suit.
DK: Sort of overalls?
JJ: That’s right.
DK: So, at the Heavy Conversion Unit then, that would have been your first sight of the Lancaster, was it?
JJ: Yes, it would have been.
DK: So what did you think once you saw these huge —
JJ: Pardon?
DK: What did you think of the Lancaster when you first saw it?
JJ: What did I think? Impressive. Certainly impressive is the word. A lot more room than I experienced before. And, yes, it’s a beautiful aircraft, we always felt. In spite of all the problems that they’d had with other aircraft in the past, heavy aircraft, you know, multi-engined aircraft, it was a beautiful aircraft and it was highly regarded by aircrews.
DK: Yeah. Did you feel safe, safe, in there or —
JJ: Quite safe but actually personal safety — excuse me. [pause] I thought I had a handkerchief somewhere.
Ann: I’ll get you one.
JJ: No, it’s alright dear. It’s alright. I’ve got one.
Ann: Have you got one?
JJ: Yes. [sneeze] Pardon me. Personal safety didn’t come into it. Somehow or other you just took part, you know. That’s right.
DK: I guess when you’re younger like that it’s a bit different.
Ann: Gung-ho.
DK: You’re a bit gung-ho.
Ann: Yes.
JJ: Well, you didn’t sort of — no, I don’t think there was any question of fear. No. We just were together.
Ann: [unclear] happen to me.
JJ: We were always together, you see. Sort of a [sneeze] as I say a unified confidence.
DK: Did you find you bonded very well with your crew?
JJ: Oh yes, yes, yes. I think it would have been a problem otherwise but, —
DK: So you all kind of, you all trusted one another to do —.
JJ: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Because, you see, when you think of the, although the bomb aimer could go into the nose to his couple of Brownings in the nose of the aircraft that wasn’t primarily his job. He was down there to drop bombs so, consequently, the rest of the crew depended on the mid-upper and rear gunner to defend the aircraft, you see, but of course this wasn’t always practical if you got a determined group of fighters attacking from different quarters.
DK: Mmm, and did that happen on a number of occasions then?
JJ: No, we weren’t attacked.
DK: You weren’t attacked.
JJ: No, I did report a, what I took to be, a Focke 190 when I was in Germany. I had a German but it fell away. Now, you could say, whether this chap had thought discretion was the better part of valour, bearing in mind he saw the two turrets were moving in his direction..
DK: That’s probably what it was. He saw you [laugh]. He saw you and scarpered [laugh].
JJ: That’s right. But you see otherwise, otherwise he would have been going into quite a hail of Browning 303s, you see.
DK: So, just stepping back a bit, after the Heavy Conversion Unit, is that when you were posted to your operational squadron?
JJ: That’s right, yes.
DK: And which squadron was that?
JJ: Sorry?
DK: Which squadron was that?
JJ: Well. It’s difficult to say I’m afraid, at this stage.
DK: It mentions 101 there. Is it?
JJ: Yeah, 101.
DK: 101 Squadron. Can I —
JJ: Possibly.
DK: Is it okay to take a look? It’s got here 189 Squadron?
JJ: Yes, again it could well be, I’m not sure. Can I just have a quick look?
DK: Yeah, sure, yeah.
JJ: Thank you. [pause] It’s a good will bin. Where am I? 920. Can you see a date on there? Telegram.
DK: Telegram, so that’s ‘Report to RAF Station Upper Heyford by twelve hundred hours, 5th of September.’
JJ: Could you see a date on the stamp?
DK: Oh yeah, 31st of August 1944?
JJ: 19 —
DK: 1944.
JJ: That sounds reasonable.
DK: So this was to your operational station then?
JJ: Yes. I think so. Yes.
DK: So initially you were based at Upper Heyford?
JJ: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So it was the squadron there.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember the other stations you were based at? Upper Heyford and —
JJ: Well again I’m afraid they’re listed on there.
DK: Were you at Ludford Magna by any, at any —
JJ: Where?
DK: Ludford Magna.
JJ: Oh yes.
DK: Ah right, okay, so in that case then I’m assuming it was 189 Squadron at Upper Heyford, and 101 at Ludford Magna.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. There’s, just for the recording here, I’ve got 16 OTU and yeah, 16 Operational Training Unit, 189 Squadron, and were you, were you at Bardney for a while?
JJ: Bardney, yes, yes. I don’t know why we were moving about quite a bit but we were.
DK: So you were at Bardney, Upper Heyford, Bardney, and Ludford Magna.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound right? Okay?
JJ: Yeah, yeah.
DK: That makes sense.
Ann: Having listened to this, are they all like this when they’re talking?
DK: Yes.
Ann: ‘Cause they’re old men you see.
DK: Yeah, I know. [slight laugh] Don’t worry, don’t worry.
Ann: It’s a lot of remembering to do isn’t it?
DK: It is. Yes.
Ann: Well, I’m just wondering how he compared with some of the others.
DK: Just, just the same. I mean, I have difficulty remembering what I did this morning. [slight laugh]
Ann: Yes, yes. Well I do too, especially the detail that you’re asking there. I just wondered how he fits in with some of the others you’ve heard.
DK: You will find some things are remembered very clearly.
Ann: Yes.
DK: I mean, I’m very bad at, for example, remembering names.
Ann: I’m wonderful.
DK: That’s the thing.
Ann: I never forget.
DK: So, so, while John can obviously remember the station names, not always the number of the squadron. With other people it can be the other way round.
Ann: Other way.
DK: They can remember the number of the squadron but not the name of the station where they were based, so —
Ann: But what they miss out then are you able to find out? Pick out?
DK: So yes, yes. We’re hopefully, hopefully doing that as we go through it.
Ann: Yes. Yes. ‘Cause by the time you’ve listened to a few you’ll be able to match up.
DK: What I can do is, um, now I know it’s 189 Squadron and I knew 101 was at Ludford Magna, you know, I can confirm that, that’s were the squadrons so, you know. So that’s okay.
JJ: Wait, there’s another. Wait a minute there’s, there’s more. Just a minute, excuse me [cough].
Ann: Would you like any more tea?
DK: Oh, could I please? Is that okay?
Ann: Do you want any more John?
JJ: No thank you dear. Oh, that’s our skipper.
DK: Okay.
JJ: There’s grandfather.
DK: Who’s known as Mac.
JJ: Mac. That’s him. [pause]
DK: So can, can you recall how many operations you actually did?
JJ: No, I did just two.
DK: Just two, yep.
JJ: Because, you see, we flew into France first of all and then we flew into Germany as they were crossing the Rhine, the, our British armies, you see.
DK: Right.
JJ: And it was then when we got back — don’t forget, you see, we were, we weren’t technically members of the squadron and we got back to, to the squadron base where we were just about to be, go on, as a member of the squadron, when the skipper was taken off because of the loss of his second brother.
DK: Right.
JJ: So we became, what they called, a headless crew.
DK: So he, he lost both his brothers then?
JJ: Yes.
DK: So they took him off operations?
JJ: Took him off and put him on, um —
DK: Was it transport?
JJ: Yes, something like that.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Sorry, I can’t find this. I’ve got an account somewhere or other. Excuse me.
DK: That’s okay. I’ve got it here.
JJ: No, I don’t think so, never mind. But I had a chronological account.
DK: It’s okay. I’ve got that. I’ve got it here. That’s the one.
JJ: Oh yes but I also had a chronological account.
DK: Oh right, okay.
JJ: Where we were but I can’t find it at the moment. Here we are.
DK: Ah, right. Okay. So the two operations you did then. Can you remember where they were to?
JJ: Yes. Again, that’s in the account.
DK: There was one to Germany, wasn’t there?
JJ: That’s right. Yes. So, I think in the margin I’ve put a note.
DK: That’s right. Yes. I did see that.
Ann: There we are.
DK: I’ve got Strasburg and Saarbrücken. Does that sound —
JJ: Sorry?
DK: Strasburg and Saarbrücken.
JJ: That’s it.
DK: Yeah. So, I’m just reading your account here, just for the recording. It says, ‘Our first operation together was into France and then into Germany, which was Strasburg and Saarbrücken.’
JJ: Yes.
DK: Yes, OK. So, this is a diversion with the main bombing at —
JJ: That’s right, yes. We were dropping Window, which you know about.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So was, was that just dropping Window? Did you just drop Window and no bombs or was it —
JJ: No, we didn’t drop any bombs at all.
DK: Just Window. So it was a diversion to the main raid at —
JJ: That was the main thing, yes. Have I been a satisfactory interviewee?
DK: You’ve been very good.
JJ: Thank you.
DK: Trust me. You may not think so but there’s a lot of information.
JJ: Is that your tea sitting there?
DK: That is. I’ve got another one. [slight laugh] There’s a lot of interesting information there.
JJ: Oh good. Um, well —
DK: Once you’d — just going back to your pilot then. Just — obviously he was taken off operations. What, what did you do then as a crew because obviously you —
JJ: We went back to what they called a holding unit because we were what they called a headless crew, so we went back to a holding unit and then we picked up a new skipper, who’d been a pre-war pilot.
DK: Oh, right.
JJ: Harrison his name was and, I think he’s there somewhere. Anyway, Harrison was the — and we continued with him until the — well I think we — I’m not sure whether we were de-mobbed after a while, obviously at the end of the war, but of course it was still a few, still a while to go. We were used in various capacities, I can’t remember the close details.
DK: No. I noticed on the account there that you flew some of the POWs, not POWs, some of the army, was it the army men back?
JJ: Oh, that’s true. Well, that was post-war, you see. Well, post, post fighting, shooting war, and, yes we flew out and brought them back to England. That’s right.
DK: So, that would have been Operation Exodus.
JJ: I suppose that’s what it was called. Yes, yes, yes.
DK: And was that to Italy?
Ann: Yes.
JJ: A place called Pomigliano. That’s right. Yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah, okay.
JJ: Did he get a second cup Ann?
Ann: Yes. He’s got a second cup.
DK: Very nice, very nice thank you. So, okay.
Ann: So you’ll know the whole story of the war won’t you by the time you’ve finished.
DK: Oh yes. Definitely.
Ann: Won’t you? Because you were only a little boy weren’t you? No, you weren’t alive then.
DK: No, I wasn’t alive.
Ann: You wasn’t alive.
DK: Well, I was born in ‘63 so —
Ann: Do you find it interesting?
DK: Oh yeah. Definitely.
Ann: Do you?
DK: It’s very interesting. Okay, so we’ll probably wind up there. I mean, that’s probably good enough. Just one final query. How do you look back now, after seventy years, at your period in the RAF in Bomber Command? Is it something you —
JJ: I haven’t really thought of it before but with satisfaction, with satisfaction, because I felt that I took part, even though it was in a minor capacity, but I took part and if I hadn’t been there somebody else would have had to be there. And we did some interesting and useful jobs. It’s difficult to say how valuable they were, in retrospect, but due to the limited numbers of trips that I actually made they have to be limited. But I mean you see some of these chaps, they did tours of ops, you see.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Two or three tours of ops and they got the chop at the end sometimes, you know. Ridiculous. But, no. Then finally made redundant and that was it.
DK: So, what were you doing immediately after the war then? What career did you go into? Did you stay in the RAF?
JJ: No. I was — we had two weeks leave in which we were given our civvy clothes, I think, and a Trilby hat, and [laugh] yes, and back home again and went back to where I was more or less before, you see.
DK: Okay, okay.
JJ: At the Co-op and you just got on, but a very small cog in a big wheel, but nevertheless we were there.
DK: And just one final question. Just going back to your role as a gunner, what was your, this might sound a silly question, what was your actual role there? Is it just to keep an eye out of any problems or —
JJ: Oh yes. Attacking aircraft. You couldn’t do — you never fired at the ground or anything like that. It was to — you could fire. I’m not sure. I don’t think we could go through 360 degrees but through about most of it, in a wide arc, you see. Well you could fire independently of the rear gunner and, as I’ve explained there, yes we could probably give directions to the pilot to say, ‘Dive left,’ or, ‘Climb right,’ or something like that, you see, ‘Climb starboard,’ so as to increase the angle at which the fighter would have to occupy to follow behind the Lanc.
DK: To make it more difficult for the fighter to fire on you.
JJ: That’s right. Because they had to be in line with it. They couldn’t manoeuvre their guns.
DK: And from your two operations can you remember the flak at all coming up? The anti-aircraft fire.
JJ: Oh, you could see distant flak but we weren’t involved. We didn’t have any, as far as I remember, flak actually near our aircraft [cough] because, after all, we were a diversionary unit.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: So we were on — literally there but not on the sharp end, as it were, because that’s where they were crossing the Rhine into Germany.
DK: And what was your feelings once you’d landed back at base?
JJ: Euphoria, I suppose, and let’s go and have a pint somewhere or other, you know.
DK: So, post-war then, you’ve, you actually stayed in touch with your crew then, did you?
JJ: Well, what happened was, I get in touch, I kept in touch with the rear gunner. Why? I can’t remember. However, and so we spent cycling holidays together and all sorts.
DK: Okay.
JJ: Poor man was the last to go but the other people I wrote. Again, Justin’s got all this. There’s stacks of correspondence where I wrote to the, the police.
Ann: To try to trace them all.
JJ: Pardon?
Ann: To try and trace them all.
JJ: Yes, I wrote to the police to find out where our navigator had gone to because he’d been a policeman. And, yes. Some were more copious —
Ann: One worked in a bank didn’t he? So you wrote to a bank?
JJ: Well, that was Bill Jones.
Ann: Yes.
DK: And what was Bill Jones? He was the —
JJ: He was rear gunner.
DK: Okay. Rear gunner.
JJ: But the navigator, he went to lecture at Police College eventually, yes. And, er, I’m afraid these accounts are somewhere in those records Ann.
Ann: That my son’s got.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: You see?
Ann: Do you want them? Would you like us to find them?
DK: Sure, yes, if you could. Yeah. I’m sure the IBCC would be interested. What we can do is take a copy of them.
Ann: Yes.
DK: For the books.
JJ: Would you find it tedious to go through all of it?
DK: No. I wouldn’t [laugh].
JJ: You wouldn’t?
DK: I find it very interesting.
JJ: Sorry?
Ann: Do you?
Dk: Oh yeah.
JJ: You would find it interesting?
DK: I’d find it very interesting, yes. I know the IBCC will.
JJ: Well, I’ll tell you what, let’s cast our bread upon the waters Ann.
Ann: Yes.
JJ: Literally. I’ve trusted this chap with my log book, right? I’ll ask Justin to bring back a whole bundle of stuff. Right? And then give it to you. How’s that? You can take a look through it.
DK: Yes. I can look at them again later. Okay, well what I’ll do, I’ll stop the recording there but thanks very much for that. That’s marvellous.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Joyner
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-21
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJoynerJH161021, PJoynerJH1601
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:35:20 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
Description
An account of the resource
John Joyner was working for the Cooperative Wholesale Society in London and joined the Air Training Corps aged 16 in 1940. He later joined the RAF and trained as an air gunner, initially on Wellingtons and then on Lancasters as the mid-upper gunner. He discusses his training with 16 OTU. He was posted to RAF Upper Heyfield with 189 Squadron and flew two operations dropping Window before their skipper was taken off operations leaving them as a 'headless crew'. He was involved with Operation Dodge repatriating Army personnel from Italy. He returned to work for the Coop after demobilisation. He kept in touch with his rear gunner and organised a crew reunion in 1999.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
16 OTU
189 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bardney
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Upper Heyford
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/641/8911/ASmithJG160408.1.mp3
6d16663cc2df8504569f79a4c660d19f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/641/8911/PSmithJG1601.1.jpg
539605fd7b5011ef5d9f78fb4e506c21
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/641/8911/PSmithJG1602.1.jpg
5f42fdfc71fb9f4a4d8b502b766e4e60
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Jack
John George Smith
J G Smith
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, JG
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with John 'Jack' Smith (1921 -2019) and his memoirs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 189 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jack — would you mind if I call you Jack?
JS: Yes.
DK: Jack, Jack Smith, um, on the 8th of April 2016. [slight cough] OK, I’ll just put that there.
JS: Right.
DK: If I keep looking down at it, don’t worry. I’m just checking that it’s still working.
JS. Yes, alright. OK.
DK: OK. So if, if I could just take you back a little bit before, before you actually joined the Air Force —
JS: Before, yes.
DK: What were you actually doing then before you joined up?
JS: I was a trainee chartered accountant.
DK: Right.
JS: And of course I was only — I was eighteen the year the war started. So, er, knowing when the war started they were calling up men at twenty I didn’t want to join the Army, I wanted to be in the RAF. So when — as soon as I was nineteen I, along with one of my colleagues, we volunteered for the RAF and we went to Padgate in September 1940 and in fact we were sort of sworn in at the Battle of Britain weekend on the 14th of September 1940.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And then after six weeks we were sent home and, and called for, for active service on the 4th of November 1940.
DK: Was there anything in particular that made you choose the RAF? Was it simply because you didn’t want the Army? [slight laugh]
JS: Well, why I wanted is rather interesting. When I was still at school I considered joining the RAF and I went for a medical and, er, I had quite a lot of bad teeth. My father was kept out of the First World War because he had bad teeth. Anyway, I said, ‘That’s not a problem. I’ll have them out.’ And they said, ‘Well no. If you’ve had more than twelve out you don’t pass the medical.’ I said, ‘Well OK.’ So, I couldn’t get any further at that stage so, to cut a long story short there, I had twenty-two teeth out when I was seventeen and I’ve had dentures ever since, you see? Well, of course, when the war came, 1940, and then I wanted to join the RAF, I went in and of course passed medical A1, no problem at all really, with me dentures. So, er, that’s how I came to be in the RAF. I wanted to be in the RAF anyway.
DK: Right.
JS: And I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, thoroughly enjoyed it. And so, of course, when we joined the — we went to — as I say, we were sworn in at Padgate and then started service on the 4th of November by going to Blackpool to commence training as a wireless operator and, of course, there we did all our drill on the promenade and marching and all that sort of thing. Then you did your Morse, one word a — increase one word a minute per week and then, when you got up to twelve words a minute, you were posted to a radio school. So then I left Blackpool and then I went down to, er, Compton Bassett, which was strictly speaking the, er, wireless operators for ground [emphasis] staff, which several of us couldn’t understand we were sent there ‘cause air crew used to go to Yatesbury —
DK: Right.
JS: For the training, you see. And then, of course, qualified as operators and I was posted, er, to a unit, RAF Bramcote, and I was only there a month as a wireless operator when I was posted abroad and, er, of course, found that there were fifty of us, wireless operators, had all been treated the same and we were not very happy about it.
DK: And this is when you went to Iraq, was it?
JS: That’s right. We went to Iraq, you see, and then when we got to Iraq the officer there didn’t know what to do with us but eventually we all settled down on different units and, er, got on to the ground operating, which was OK, and then, of course, we kept on moaning about the fact we wanted to fly and then, after much moaning and groaning and, sort of confined to quarters and everything, er, February 1943 I’d been on night duty on wireless operating duties and, er, the officer from the orderly room was there reading out names, including mine, of wireless operators to be returned to United Kingdom for air [emphasis] crew training.
DK: Ah, so were you pleased about this when you heard this?
JS: We were quite happy about it, see? So, of course, we all belted down to the air officer in charge of signals and, ‘Oh hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. There’s fifty of you.’ He said, ‘You’re all experienced ground operators. I want replacements.’ So, of course, we had to wait for replacements and they didn’t arrived ‘till July 1943. So eventually we travelled overland, through Iraq, and through to Gaza, and then by train into Egypt, and then we waited for a couple of weeks, and then we were put on board a troop ship to return to the UK. And we were the first convoy to return through the Mediterranean after it had been reopened. This was August 1943. This time Italy were packing up and so we eventually came through the Med and we stopped at Algiers and two days after we left Algiers the Germans bombed it. And then we pulled into, um, Gibraltar and, er, whilst we were there every night they let off depth charges in the docks to prevent submarines from entering and, anyway, we eventually got home. We arrived at Greenock in end of August 1943 and, of course, we were given disembarkation leave for three weeks and then I was then posted to the radio school at RAF Manley to resume my air crew training. And, of course, then I went through the course there and qualified at the end of December ‘43 and then I was kept on as sort of help the trainers with the, with the new intakes and eventually started then going to advanced flying unit in North Wales, and then on to Operational Training Unit at Silverstone, and then on to, er, on to heavy aircraft at RAF Winthorpe, on to Stirling aircraft, and then we went to Scampton then for a couple of weeks to convert to Lancasters.
DK: What did you think of the — flying on the Stirlings?
JS: Well, we, we enjoyed it in a way but our skipper, he was an Australian skipper, he said it was like driving a double-decker bus. And I mean he didn’t like it an awful lot, you know.
DK: So at what point did you meet your crew then? [unclear]
JS: Oh, when you were at Silverstone, at the Operational Training Unit. You’re all sort of assembled in one big hall and the pilots there are left then to, more or less, go round discussing the various members of the crew, you know, and sort of saying — you’re in different groups, you know, wireless operators and whatever, you see, and you, you just wait for a pilot to sort of come and say, ‘Well, would you like to join my crew?’
DK: Did you think that worked? Because it’s a bit of unusual for the Forces ‘cause normally you’re usually told where to go. This was all a bit hit and miss.
JS: Yes. It worked. In, in my case it worked fairly well really, er, but I suppose if you wanted to be sort of really hundred per cent sure about it then no because, I mean, you didn’t — the pilot didn’t get an awful lot of chance to ask questions of you, you know.
DK: No, no.
JS: You qualified as whatever and because you qualified as a wireless op, ‘OK, well you can come in my crew.’ You see, I mean we were fortunate, we got a pretty very good skipper. But our crew worked out very well except for our tail gunner, who was an Irishman, and we had to ditch him after the third trip because twice he went to sleep on the way back from Germany, you know. I had the job to go down to see what had happened to him and there he was with the turret doors open, fast asleep.
DK: Oh dear.
JS: So we had to ditch him. So apart from that —
DK: So from the, er, Operational Training Unit then did you then go to —
JS: Operational Training Unit. Let’s see, we went straight from Silverstone, then to Winthorpe on to Stirlings.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And then —
DK: This is the Heavy Conversion Unit?
JS: That was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe and then, having done that, you then went to Scampton just to get on to Lancasters.
DK: Right.
JS: Oh, and then we went — let’s see, we went to one more station, just near Newark, the Lancaster Finishing School near Newark, yeah.
DK: Right, and what did you think of the Lancasters after the Stirlings?
JS: Well, we liked it and some of us liked better, much more comfortable in many ways, you know. Certainly, I mean, it didn’t affect me too much but it was a bit more of a, a barn of an aircraft. The, the Lancaster was also nice and cosy and compact, as cosy as it could be, you know. We were all pretty well close together but you didn’t feel quite the same in a Stirling.
DK: No.
JS: But, er —
DK: So from the Lancaster Finishing School then was that on to your operational squadron?
JS: Operational squadron then.
DK: Yeah, and which squadron was —
JS: I went to 189 Squadron.
DK: 189, yeah.
JS: And they were based at Fulbeck, which is no longer operating, because it was near Cranwell, very near to Cranwell. And so we got there, I think it was in October ’40, ’44, October ’44, and then I actually started my first operation. We were b—, we were briefed, I think for three trips, which were aborted before — so we had all that operation for your first trip, you know, getting geared up for it, and then at the last minute it was cancelled, you see.
DK: How did that make you feel then? Was it very frustrating?
JS: Well not very happy about that, you know. You’re all geared up for your first trip, you know, and you think, ‘Oh well this is it. Tonight we’re — OK, fine.’ Then sort of five minutes before you’re going it’s cancelled.
DK: And that happened three times.
JS: It happened three times, yeah, it did.
DK: So, can you remember where your first operation was to then?
JS: Yeah I can. Er, without looking in me book, er, it was a mar—, a marshalling yard, um, railway marshalling yard.
DK: In France?
JS: In Germany.
DK: In Germany.
JS: Yeah.
DK: OK.
JS: But, um, we did quite a lot of marshalling yards and oil targets obviously. One of my raids — I did the Dresden raid.
DK: Right.
JS: And we did two targets on —
DK: So how, how many operations did you do altogether?
JS: I did twenty-four and two semi-operational trips because before you go on to a squadron, when you’re still on OTU, we did a leaflet raid in, in Wellington bombers.
DK: Right.
JS: A, a leaflet raid over France and then we did — what they called the Bullseye — a diversion off the Dutch coast to try and put the German radar off, thinking it was the main force were going there, you see. So you did two semi-, semi-operational raids and then, of course, by the time I did my twenty-four VE Day arrived and that was it and, of course, even then there were crews then waiting then obviously to go out to the Far East but, of course, I was considered tour-expired anyway then. That was alright, you see.
DK: So as, as a wireless operator then what were your main duties once you were on board the aircraft and you —
JS: Well your main duties really were to keep a listening watch all the time as to whether you got anything coming through from your base, and weather reports and things like that, anything of importance like that, and then, of course, it was also you were needed in case, as it happened, we had to sort of, er, get diverted because, er, we were running short of fuel on a couple of times and then, on one occasion, Lincolnshire was fog-bound for the whole of December 1944 and we were diverted to the north of Scotland and we had to spend a whole week in the north of Scotland before we could get back down to Lincolnshire because of the fog. So, then my other duty then would have been if we had to ditch. I had the job in the dinghy, if you got the dinghy, I had the emergency radio and I got to operate that.
DK: Right.
JS: And that was the worst thing I’d have to do really.
DK: But that never happened then?
JS: That never happened, thank God, no. But listening out and of course — well, I had to call up to request where we could be diverted to because we were short of fuel and we wanted to know the best place we could put down so it was Carnaby in, in Yorkshire or Manston in Kent.
DK: Because they had the wider runways there?
JS: Yes and they had what they called FIDO.
DK: FIDO.
JS: The fog dispersal unit, yeah. So I did two or three, probably three, diversions I think, yeah.
DK: And was, was your aircraft ever attacked at all? Or —
JS: Well, we were attacked but we was — we never had more than glancing blows, should I say. The worst we had, we did the — one raid to Gdynia in Poland. The German Navy were there and to, er, to get on the correct heading for the bombing run, we had to sort of go south of the target to come out over the port so that when we released the bombs we were over the Baltic. And somehow or other the navigator miscalculated and we got to the target five minutes early and then we got coned with searchlights. So we had a, a few hectic minutes with the searchlights on us so — but even that wasn’t too bad because they didn’t hit us anyway but it was a bit of a hair raising moment shall we say, you know. You’re sort of pretty vulnerable when you’re sort of coned.
DK: Yeah. So were, were all your operations at night?
JS: Not all of them, no.
DK: Some were in daylight?
JS: I did a thousand bomber raid on Dortmund and this — you’ll see in my log book they’re in green and all the night time ones are all in red.
DK: Right. OK.
JS: So I think we did three daylight raids, probably. Yeah.
DK: But what was it like at night though? Was it — is it something you got used to? Because its —
JS: Well you did. It sounds, now you think — you wonder how you did it, ‘cause there were no lights on anywhere, you see. I mean, your aircraft, you had no lights on, and most of our bomber strength, it was usually two hundred, that was the average strength of a bomber force, and sometimes more than that, but the average, average two hundred. Well, when you consider that you had a rendezvous point, quite often in our case it would be over Northampton or Beachy Head. Well, you consider you come in from different squadrons to the rendezvous point and there’s two hundred of you getting together to go to the same place and you’ve got no lights on. When you think about it that’s a bit hairy.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And of course, obviously, there’s no, no lights below you at all. The only time we got lights when we were sort of coming back, like, when we’d been to Gdynia and we came back over the Baltic. We then followed the Swedish coast and the Swedes were very kind. They put sort of small lights up along their coast so they were quite decent about it. But those were the only lights we ever saw, you know.
DK: So when — what was it like when it got back then as you saw the airfield and you came into land?
JS: Well, a mighty relief, obviously, that was and, of course, it was a relief and it sounds silly in a way but with so many aerodromes, particularly in Lincolnshire, as you know, it was a bit hairy coming in over your own circuit because a lot of circuits nearly overlapped.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And, of course, towards the end the Germans were getting so desperate that, er, they were sending their, some of their fighters back amongst the bomber force, and two or three of our planes got shot down over Norfolk because they’d been followed all the way back, you know. So there were those situations arising.
DK: So you never got attacked by another aircraft then?
JS: No, no, we didn’t. We sort of — obviously, when you’re in the target area you feel, obviously, all the explosions coming underneath, all the bumps and everything like that and then, of course, on one or two raids the Germans put up — what they called Scarecrows — that was sort of the imitation of an aircraft crashing, which can be a bit unnerving, you know, because you’re not too sure whether it is a Scarecrow or not and it gives all the appearance of being an aircraft going down in flames so it doesn’t do your morale any good, you know.
DK: Did you see many of those then?
JS: Oh we saw, I think over the years, over the operations, I probably saw half a dozen of those, I suppose, you know.
DK: So when, when you weren’t flying and you were off duty did — what did you do then? Did you and your crew socialise together? Or —
JS: Well, yes, yes. I mean, we often socialised, probably not all of you together. I mean, er, you bond in different ways really. I mean there’s seven of you. Well, er, in our crew our navigator was a bit of a quiet type and he, he never or hardly ever came out with us. I mean the rest of us were going down into Newark or the towns and having a night out but the navigator, he was an architect by profession, and he was a bit more quiet and he didn’t join us. But the skipper was a good, good Aussie, and he was the oldest member of the crew. He was early thirties. Well, I mean, we called him ‘dad’ because I was the second oldest member. I was twenty-three.
DK: Right.
JS: And — but he was a real Aussie and when you were out with him you had a good time, you know. We —
DK: Can you remember the pilot’s name?
JS: Yeah, Richter. Rod Richter, yeah.
DK: And how did you feel, feel about, um, those from the Commonwealth, Australia and wherever?
JS: Well, they were a terrific asset. I mean, we had a lot of Aussies, a lot New Zealanders as well, and Canadians, and they all mixed in with the rest of us very well, you know.
DK: And did you, did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
JS: No and that was the big, big mistake I think perhaps a lot of us made. It was awfully sad. You say ‘Why didn’t you?’ Well, it didn’t happen. I don’t know why.
DK: Because presumably he went back to Australia?
JS: He went back to Australia, yeah, but I mean we were all good friends and there’s no reason why we shouldn’t have done but, for whatever reason, we didn’t, you know.
DK: And the rest of your crew were they all — well the Irish gunner — but were the rest of them all English then?
JS: Yeah. The navigator was from Stoke on Trent, the bomb aimer was from Llanelli in South Wales, the flight engineer was from New Malden in Surrey, the mid-upper gunner was from Hartlepool and the tail gunner was the Irishman from Belfast. So we were all around the British Isle.
DK: And, and some of the major raids then. You mention you few to Dresden?
JS: Dresden.
DK: And what, what was that like?
JS: Well, that was, of course — it was just one hell of a raid. I mean, we were bombing at midnight. We’d sort of — the Americans had been during the day and then the British were going at night. And I remember we were flying and we were flying over the Alps and we were getting iced up and we were getting a bit bothered, the skipper was a bit bothered, because we had to sort of reduce our height a bit from what the flight plan said but we were getting iced up rather badly. And then, of course, you could see the target miles away before you got there because, I mean, it was as you know, it was just one big blaze. And, er, actually over the target, I mean, there was a terrific amount of anti-aircraft fire and a lot of activity from night bomb— night fighters, you know, so you were getting quite a bit of hassle from one way or another but it was such a big raid that — but, there again, we were pretty fortunate. We missed anything of any serious consequence, you know.
DK: Did Dresden at the time stand out as anything? Or was it just another raid?
JS: Well, the reason we did the raid and I noted it in my log book. The reason — when we were being briefed we said the reason we were going, the Russians had pushed the German Army back and Dresden was absolutely full of the German Army, and that’s why we went to Dresden, as simple as that. And so you were sort of quite encouraged to think that there you were doing a target which you got the Germany Army there and wonderful, you know, just the job. You couldn’t have a better target with that sort of description, you know, but it was — it covered, it seemed to cover one hell of a big area, you know, because you’d see it, I don’t know, must have been at least a hundred miles away, must have been.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because we were one hell of a height up, as you know. We were given the height we had to fly and all that sort of thing and we were sort of — well we were usually about anything between fourteen and sixteen thousand feet, I suppose, on average, and sometimes we’d been down as low as ten, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And, er, but — I mean, all the raids you have you got sort of, obviously, a lot of apprehension because whilst you’re in the target area — when you consider that there’s two hundred of you going over one place in about twelve min— twelve, twenty minutes I should say, you’ve all got your bombing times, you know, H plus whatever, and when you think you’ve got — there’s two hundred of you going over that small area all in the same time and you’re stacked. And of course that was another job the wireless operator’d do. I had to stand, if the radio was OK, I had to stand on it and look through the astrodome and if we got our own aircraft with bomb doors open above us I gotta tell the skipper to dive port or starboard, you know.
DK: Did that ever happen at all? Did you actually see aircraft blown up?
JS: Yes. Well, I mean, we did that three or four times. Well, it happened quite often because, as you know, when you’ve got so many up more or less together, I mean, in fairly good layers, you know. And, particularly, it seemed to be the more trips you did the further down the stack you came, you see.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And so there was a big risk. I mean, we did lose — not our squadron but there were quite a lot of our aircraft lost through bombs from the ones above, you know. Because there isn’t much room. If you’ve got a bomber upstairs there and he’s getting set to load and let his load go, you know, and you’re just beneath, you’ve got to get out, you know, because otherwise you’ll soon get involved in it.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So the war’s come to an end then. What, what happened to you in the RAF then? Did you leave soon after?
JS: Well, I had a bit of a relaxing time because I was a flight sergeant and then I became a warrant officer because of the time and so I was on good money and very little to do. And the station near Ipswich and that’s where I met my wife.
DK: Ah.
JS: I met my wife in November 1945.
DK: Right.
JS: And so Ipswich was the nearest town. I was stationed at Woodbridge and Woodbridge actually was one of the stations with an emergency landing strip.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
JS: So I spent the rest of my time — I was actually working on the flying control tower signals, you know, and I didn’t have a lot to do really. I mean, as I say, it was — the end of the war, you see, fortunately VE Day came just as I’d done my 24th trip and that was the end of the war, you see, and there was nothing much for us to do except we’d obviously have a rest period anyway.
DK: When did you leave the RAF then?
JS: Oh, April 1946, yes.
DK: And did you go back to your previous career? Or —
JS: Yes, yes. I had my job kept open for me, you see.
DK: Oh, right. OK.
JS: In fact, I was released on the 3rd of April 1946 and on the 4th May I got married and so the next 4th of May it’s seventy years since we got married.
DK: Oh, congratulations. [slight laugh]
JS: So, our seventy years dear, isn’t it? [slight laugh] Unfortunately, my wife had a stroke four years ago and it affected her speech and so we, we haven’t been able to socialise these last four years like we usually do. It’s awful difficult. We have carers come in four times a day so — we’re social people and we miss that so much, you know. We haven’t had a holiday for six years. We sort of — it’s not as easy as it sounds, you know.
DK: How do you look back on that period of your life in the RAF then? Do you, do you think about it still? [unclear]
JS: I — it sounds silly in a way but I enjoyed it, er, not because it was a war but the spirit of the RAF. I enjoyed being in the RAF. And, er, no I thoroughly enjoyed it from that point of view, yeah. I mean, I did consider whether I should stay in but, of course, if you wanted to stay in you had to reduce two ranks and I was a warrant officer I didn’t want to go back down to being a sergeant. So anyway, as it happens, I’m still working as an account. I’m ninety-five in August.
DK: And you’re still working?
JS: I’m still working.
DK: Oh excellent. [slight laugh]
JS: So, you know —
DK: [laugh] That’s good.
JS: Oh no. The brain keeps ticking over.
DK: That’s amazing.
JS: And people still pay me so —
DK: Well, we’ll stop there.
JS: Yeah.
DK: I think that’s probably enough.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithJG160408, PSmithJG1601, PSmithJG1602
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:29:00 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Iraq
England--Blackpool
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Lancashire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Warwickshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Suffolk
Germany
Poland
Poland--Gdynia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10
1945-02
1940-09
1943-12
1946-03
Description
An account of the resource
Jack volunteered for the Royal Air Force (RAF) in September 1940. He went to Padgate and then on to Blackpool where he trained as a wireless operator. Jack proceeded to a radio school at RAF Compton Bassett and then RAF Bramcote. He was posted to Iraq, doing ground operating rather than flying. He eventually returned to the UK for aircrew training. Jack was posted to radio school at RAF Manley and qualified in December 1943. He went to the advanced flying unit in North Wales and then the Operational Training Unit at RAF Silverstone where he met his crew. This was followed by the heavy conversion unit at RAF Winthorpe on Stirling aircraft. Jack went to RAF Scampton to convert onto Lancasters and a Lancaster Finishing School near Newark.
In October 1944 Jack was posted to 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck. His first three trips were aborted. He carried out 24 operations and two semi-operational trips (leaflets dropping and a diversion to confuse German radar). Several operations were to railway marshalling yards in Germany. He also describes an operation to Gdynia in Poland and the Dresden operation and its rationale.
Jack discusses the main duties of the wireless operator, his experience of ‘scarecrows’ and the difficulty of flying at night in close proximity to other aircraft.
When the war ended, Jack became warrant officer and was stationed at RAF Woodbridge, working on flying control tower signals. He left the RAF in April 1946 and returned to his job as trainee chartered accountant.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
189 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bramcote
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Yatesbury
Scarecrow
Stirling
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/642/8912/ASnowballM150626.2.mp3
bbd766624aaad1dc3f596be446f736f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Snowball, Maurice
M Snowball
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Snowball, M
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Maurice Snowball (1922 - 2020, 1595147 Royal Air Force) his log book, documents, notebooks and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 550 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Maurice Snowball and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
Requires
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Maurice Snowball was born in Sunderland, England in 1922, after apprenticing at a brewery in Sunderland, whilst also playing football as an amateur and having spent time in the local Home Guard, Maurice chose to join the RAF as a volunteer. After passing his medical and joining full time in December 1944, he underwent training at RAF Bridlington. Technical training was undertaken at Locking and then at RAF St. Athan as a Flight Engineer. Starting out in Halifax Mk. II & V he then switched to the Lancaster Mk.I & III. Once training was over, he had a short tour at 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby, Lincolnshire and was sent, to 550 Squadron, based at North Killingholme, Lincolnshire. Here he undertook four bombing operations as well as taking part in Operation Manna, the dropping of food parcels in the Netherlands, After the end of hostilities he also took part in operation Post Mortem, the testing of German Radar systems and operation Dodge, the repatriation of British troops from Italy. He was demobilised December 1947.
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/34648 Log Book
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/8912 Interview
Andrew St. Denis
Maurice was born and brought up in Sunderland, when he left school he was apprenticed to a small company manufacturing equipment for the brewery industry and had become a keen amateur footballer. Although in a reserved occupation he volunteered for aircrew and eventually did his basic training at Bridlington in January 1944. He continued his training at RAF Locking and RAF St Athan and arrived at No 1662 Heavy Conversion Unit (HCU) at RAF Blyton to fly the Halifax in September 1944. Part way through the course the HCU became a Lancaster Finishing School (LFS) and the crew converted to the Lancaster. With his crew he was posted to No 12 Squadron at RAF Wickenby. He did one flight with them there and then he returned to the LFS and by January 1945 he had re-crewed and in late March the crew were posted to No 550 Squadron at RAF North Killingholme. He did four bombing operations and one Operation Manna flight before the war in Europe ended. He continued to fly with the squadron doing the usual Post War flying, operations Post Mortem, Dodge and Cooks Tours until late March 1946. He retrained as a Mechanical Transport (MT) driver and was for a time posted to the Middle East specifically RAF El Adam.
Having been demobilised Maurice returned to Sunderland and resumed his career with the brewery equipment manufacturer. He relocated several times within the UK and at one time was the mechanical foreman maintaining the Tornado at RAF North Luffenham. He remained a keen amateur footballer never making the elevation to professional player.
He maintained his links with his No 550 Squadron crew members and Operation Manna, visiting Holland in 1985 and he also met a Dutch woman who was eight years old in 1945.
Trevor Hardcastle
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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David Kavanagh interviewing Maurice Snowball, David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre.
DK: Were you with 550 Squadron?
MS: 550 Squadron yes
DK : Were you with another squadron before then?
MS: No I was [chit chat not relevant to interview] well, we, I did my training and then I had a problem with the first crew I was in and had to go back to heavy con unit and get another crew and that was the crew I flew with afterwards.
DK: Was your training all in the United kingdom?
MS: Yes, flight engineer, all the flight engineers were trained in England and down at St Athan but when we, when I, went it was busy at St Athan and we had six weeks previously at RAF Locking and then went to St Athan and the engineers did all that training and qualified and got their wing before we even saw a four engine aeroplane, and you were posted up to heavy con unit. We went, I, was sent to Blyton near Gainsborough, and I did it there then I had to go back there to do it again with the new crew and it knocked me back 3 months, so I didn’t get to the squadron with this crew until January 45.
DK: So the crew that you were with in the heavy conversion unit were the same crew that you joined the operational unit?
MS: Yes, the second, the second visit to Blyton was the crew that I flew with and I couldn’t have got a better crew, it was a really good crew I got with, and there is only me and the navigator left now, he is a retired police superintendant that lives at Boston, and he is not very well, he had to drop out of the going to Holland this year, it would have been his first visit to Holland, and he had to drop out, and he’s now cancelled his reunion next weekend at Killingholme, he’s not well enough, so he’s, I don’t know what his problem is, I think its something to do with heart because I know he had a –
DK: Pacemaker ?
MS: Pacemakers the word, yes, he had a pacemaker fitted a while, several years ago, but, its a shame really because we get on ever so well together, he originated from Gateshead and I was from Sunderland so we were two north country, and the rest of the crew, the skipper lived down in Dorset, yes Dorset, and our bomb aimer was from London, and he was a keen golfer he used to give officers lessons at golfing, and when we split up he said ‘keep’, ‘if we lose touch with each other keep a look at the world cup team every year because I am going to play for them one day’ and it was [unclear] Laddie lucas, this is your life was on, that Ken was on that he was on that team then, and he died, about three or four years ago now might even be more. We used to meet up, the skipper the navigator and me. We used to meet at Banbury every year because it was, the hotel we went to was a mile difference between the skippers home and the navigators home, we couldn’t have got more central, and I contacted the bomb aimer and he said he would come the next year, and I rang up in the August and his wife answered the phone, and I said ‘Ken did promise to come to Banbury this year for the lunch and I’ve now got the dates, September’ and she said ‘just a minute I’m very sorry I’ve got some bad news and I’ve got some good news’ and I knew what the bad news would be, she said ‘he died in July just a month ago and the good news he always wanted to play golf to his dying day and he collapsed and died on the golf course’ so he got that - and the mid upper he lived at Nottingham I managed to contact him, he had a couple of lunches with us before he died, and the radio operator was the only one we couldn’t trace and I put a letter in the Hull papers and I got two back one from a lady and one from a man that were teenagers with him and they both said the same, although one lived - they never met each other since they were youngsters but they both said the same Geoff had died in his early 30’s from a kind of a blood disease so I don’t know whether it was leukaemia or what so that was why I wasn‘t able to trace him and it was funny when I put the letter in the Hull Echo I got nothing back from his family, so I don’t know whether there was any family left. Anyhow I finished training with the crew, and got posted up to North kilingholm 550 squadron, and we had done our first two training trips and early April we started operations.
DK: Did 550 have Lancaster’s at the time then?
MS: I trained on Halifax’s at the first one and midway through the course we switched to what we called Lancaster school but the second time they were all Lancaster’s the Halifax’s had gone, so I did training on the Halifax and we flew on the Halifax and did the whole course practically on the Halifax, the first one.
DK: What was you impression of the two aircraft, the Halifax and the Lancaster?
MS: I liked the Halifax, and it was, it was a good aircraft for the engineer, well for the crew because there was more room in it, you are not cramped like you are in the Lancaster and it was a pretty reliable aircraft with the radial engines but it didn’t get the height or anything, so the Lancaster was the better one being on operations, it was the safer one to fly, the Lancaster, but at the same time if anything happened it was a difficult one to get out of because it was so cramped so there was a lot of crew members lost by not bailing out quick enough, whereas with the Halifax it was easy to get out you see, so when you learnt about it you think well I am better on the Lancaster but once you start flying with the Lancaster that was the plane for you, you know, it was a terrific aircraft , but I never sat down as flight engineer, because it was a little tip up seat, and if I sat on that I was facing the skipper, you couldn’t see the dials properly and my panel was over here so I stood all the time and I’ve not found an engineer yet that I’ve met that did sit down much the only time you sat was when you were doing your calculations of fuel use and stuff like that, but mostly when flying plus the fact when you went on operations you were asked to, you were helping the skipper all the time but at the same time they asked you to keep a lookout and help the gunners in case you saw anything, well if you sat on your seat with your back to window you couldn’t so you had to stand. And our first two operations were both within 5 mins of 9 hours, 8 hours and 55, and people have said you didn’t stand all that time I said ‘well I was young enough then not to be worried about standing all that’, I never used to think that was a long time to stand and being an engineer in civilian life and working on heavy machinery it was a lighter job when you’re flying, and standing hours we used to work, before I went in, in 1943 I was 17 doing 12 hours shifts at work where you’re on your feet 12 hours a day anyway so -
DK: Where was that you were working?
MS: Up in Sunderland I served me apprenticeship, funnily enough it was, served in brewery machinery bottle washers, conveyers, fillers and everything like that, but we got a good engineering - because it was a family firm, you learnt electrics and plumbing all sorts of work that when you went in a ship yard you were maybe trained in one thing, or you were on one lathe, we got a bit of work done planeing, on lathes, all sorts of things and it turned out in my life afterwards, I went back to the same firm when I came out of the air force and I had altogether 25 years with them, and good experience, and then I left 1960 I left Sunderland and moved down to Northamptonshire and I worked down there for northern dairies for 5 or 6 years, then we moved up to Oakham and when I was in Oakham I finished my working life, working, first of all, I started at Ashwood prison and then when the tornados came to Cottismore I got started there as a fitter and ended up as a mechanical foreman, and retired at 65 from there. My apprenticeship came in very handy because it covered so many things you know -
DK: Do you remember now why it was the air force that you chose I understand [unclear] you volunteered?
MS: Its funny how it happened I was in a reserve job so I couldn’t, you could only volunteer for one thing that was aircrew, and I never thought about it when I was doing my apprenticeship but when I got up, I was a keen amateur footballer, and I played every Saturday afternoon and the foreman used to say to me’ wait until you’re a man out of time and you’ll have to work Saturday afternoon I can’t stop you playing football now, but once you’re a man your job will be here’ and jokingly I said ‘well if that’s the case I might as well join the air force or somewhere at least they get leaves every so often’ and that was, I just said it as a joke, but then the last year towards the time when I was 21 and out of my time, he said that ‘I’ll have you working on Saturdays next year’ and I said ‘will you?’ and I didn’t think anything else about it, but as soon as I finished my apprenticeship I thought I am not going to be working here 12 hours a day for the rest of the war, I am going to volunteer after all, and aircrew was the only one you could volunteer for, I thought, I was keen on hearing and reading about the Sunderland flying boat, being a Sunderland born man and I thought I wonder if I could join the air force and become a flight engineer on Sunderland’s so that’s what I did. I hadn’t really thought about until actually I was 21, and I volunteered straight away in the January, my birthday was January, I had my aircrew medical in the July, 3 days, and then put on deferred service, and I wasn’t called up until December of that year, so I was 12 months between volunteering and, and by then I hadn’t changed my mind, but I had settled in to the fact that well if I’m not going to get called up, I hope I can make the grade as a goalkeeper, professional, and I had a pretty good amateur life as a footballer you know, and I played untill i was 34, but when the time came to 21 I thought, I must try and get on Sunderland flying boats. We went down to be typed[?] At St Athan and when you did training you were all in the hanger, and they would say right we want so many at[?] for this and so many for that, and the first thing he said ‘how many of you chaps want to be a flight engineer on Sunderland flying boats?’, and half of us put their hands up, he says ‘well I’m sorry we’re not training flight engineers for Sunderland flying boats until they get the new Centaurus engine’, so I said ‘oh’, and then they asked for so many volunteers for Stirling’s and when they didn’t get enough what they wanted, the Sergeant said, right anybody whose last figure is so and so you’re on Stirling’s and then they did the same for Halifax’s and by then I’d done them both, I wanted to be on Lancaster’s so I thought well I’m not going to volunteer I hope he doesn’t call my number out next time and he called out whose last two numbers are so and so and fortunately it didn’t come? So he said right the rest of you are all Lancaster boys, so that’s how it came about the end of the [unclear] And we went to Bridlington and we did all our marching and that at Bridlington, and that was prior to going to St Athan, I’ve jumped the gun a bit there, I was posted up to Bridlington and I’d been in the home guard while I was apprentice up home, lance corporal, and we had a demonstration team and we never lost a competition we went in, we were drilling at Bridlington and sergeant, there was two lads couldn’t march properly their hands went with the foot when they shouldn’t have done and he came to me and he said ‘I’ve been watching you, you’ve done this business before haven’t you?’ I said ‘yes’ I said ‘I was in the home guard in a demonstration platoon’, he said ‘well take these two lads along there and see if you can get them marching properly’, and I was with them 20 minutes and by the time that 20 minutes was up when I said quick march, they marched properly, and the sergeant said ‘how you going on?’ I said ‘good’ so he said ‘bring them back’, and he got them to stand in front of him and he said quick march and they went back to what they had been, and he said ‘oh just join the ranks’ he said ‘they’ll learn eventually’ but it was just they were nervous you see in front of the sergeant. And from Bridlington you were posted to heavy con unit where you meet the crew. And,When you formed your crew. I skipped the early one to talk about the one I flew with because that’s where me memories are. I was in the hanger and I was told to find the crew of pilot officer James, just altogether you know, and you used to just, if you saw somebody that you liked you say could I be in your crew? Well, I was told to ask for pilot officer James’s crew, and I thought well I don’t know any of them so I just waited until I saw practically everybody was teamed up, and then I saw these two lads, navigator and bomb aimer walking round, and I went up and said ‘excuse me are you with pilot officer James’s crew’, they said ‘yes’, so I said ‘well I’m sergeant Snowball, I’m going to be your flight engineer’ and the navigator who come from Gateshead said ‘oh dear, we thought with a name like that you must come from the West Indies, we’ve been looking for the wrong colour’. And it was, when we met up after the war 40 years afterwards, I reminded them about this and he says ‘Maurice’ he said, ‘I should have known’ he said,’ I told you I never heard the name Snowball before’, and he said ‘the biggest department store in Gateshead was Snowball’, he said ‘so why I thought I’d never heard the name before’ and I used to really rib them about that because [pause] they didn’t actually say West Indian [laughter] they said another word.
DK: [unclear]
MS: Yes. But we got on ever so well together the crew, I couldn’t’ have got a better crew, the skipper was very good with us. It was winter of course when we got to Killingholme, by that was a cold camp, we were in Nissan huts and you had a coal, just one coal fire in the middle, you know a stove, and the coal was rationed you could never get enough to keep it -, and at one stage the coal heap outside was whitewashed so far up so that if anybody went out at night and got coal they knew somebody had been because they had whitewashed was disturbed, so anybody that did that they had to be very careful because if they saw it happen they would come into the billets and look at any coal that was in buckets or anything to see if there was any whitewash on the top. [laughter] You see it was rationed and it was unfair to pinch it and make somebody else short of it, but when you did, when you did have a good fire going you could boil a kettle on it and make yourself a cup of tea, all used to bring tea, it was loose tea in them days of course, but we always managed to have a cup of tea, didn’t always have milk, because you had to go off camp to get the milk or scrounge it off the naafi girls in the naafi, but it turned out to be a good camp. I used to go in, I had a cycle and I used to cycle up to Immingham and catch the night tram into Grimsby, especially on a Saturday night when we wasn’t flying anywhere, because I liked dancing I did a lot of ballroom dancing, and the skipper and the bomb aimer both had little cars, and you had a ration you know, and they used to go, and it wasn’t until 40 years afterwards we were talking at one of these reunions [checks if its alright to continue] we were talking at one of these reunions, and they were talking about George the navigator, he got engaged to a girl there, which he later married, and they were talking about going to his wife’s, then his girl, we used to go to your girlfriends, mothers for dinner [unclear] we always used to have egg and chips or something, and I said ‘when did that happen?’ they says ‘well you always used the bike because it was only a two seater car, you couldn’t go in the car with us and when you left the dance we went to the car you got on your bike [corrects self] ‘and got on the tram’, rather ‘to go and get your bike at Immingham, and we used to call in to Georges, girlfriend’s, and had a good supper off her mother’ so I missed all that by using the bike [gentle laughing]. Well the skipper, he was a pilot officer and our rear gunner was a flying officer, two good gunners because the two gunners had been gunnery instructors and when the gunnery school closed they were posted to heavy con to do some ops, they’d never flown on ops they had been training, so we had two experienced gunners really, which was a good thing, fortunately we never had have any bother there. I can’t remember ever whether they did ever do open up fire? The rear gunner said at one time his gunnery where he was, was lit up by a searchlight and he said fortunately it went out straight away otherwise they would have quickly gone onto us with the rest of them, but we didn’t know anything about that he told us afterwards, so we had no real problems at all, we were very fortunate we never had a fault with an engine or a plane, and we got through the four bombing operations we did safely, and then we did the food drop one.
DK: So you did four operations before that?
MS: We did four bombing, We did two night ones, and the first one Plzen[?], was near the Czech border that one was eight hours 55 minutes the next one was at Potsdam just 30 miles south of Berlin, so that was eight hours and so many minutes after, and then we did Helgoland that was about a four hour trip, 2 hour you know -, trip, and that was bombing of course, and Breman we went to Breman, oh Bremen was our first daylight one because it was the first time we had seen anti-aircraft shells. And we went through Wilhelmshaven and we could see all the flak then, and think well we’ve got to go through that, well we got through it safely, and then we got to Breman, because the cloud hadn’t properly cleared and the Canadian army was waiting to attack Breman after we’d bombed, the master bomber was cancelling it, and so we got all the way to Bremen and brought the bombs all the way back again, and landed with them, I, a little task that I had to do then was on the way back the Skipper said ‘you had better work out what fuel we’re going to use and whether we will be on our landing weight’ and I said ‘oh you will be by the time we get back there’, because I said ‘we’re nearly home, its been well down’ and, we landed with the full bomb load on but the skipper was told he should have jettisoned the 1,000 pound one because they said it wouldn’t have exploded but if you landed heavily and it had come off the hooks any of the bomb armourers that were underneath them doors could have it drop on them, so they said if it happens again you must get rid of your cookie.
DK: Was he in any trouble for that?
MS: No no
DK: Or was he just advised next time?
MS: Just advised because we were a new crew and we had never had that experience of bringing bombs back before. We knew that planes had come back when it had an engine missing or something like that, and had to turn back and they had got rid of their bomb load you see, but we were, we had no fault to get rid of the bombs, other than the fact the safety of them, we didn’t think of that, as far as we were concerned we were bringing them back safely. [gentle laughter] [pause] Then when the squadron closed in 47 no 46, October 46, I was re-trained as a MT driver until my de-mob came up and I was posted to El Adem at Tobruk. While there, actually, I had developed an injury when I was playing in goal, I couldn’t take goal kicks with my right foot my back used to be too painful and when I used to sit down any length of time, I would walk about 40 or 50 yards before I could straighten up properly, and eventually I went to the MO at North Killingholme, and he said ‘that’s [unclear] but you’ve got a bit of arthritis or rheumatism’ he said, and I said ‘well I’ve now got a posting to the Middle East’, I said ‘should I have something looked at before’, and he said ‘oh if you’re going to the middle east its nice and warm there you’ll be alright’ and I went there and I was there 12 months nearly still having this problem and then they said we’re going to send you back home now to Cosford hospital and they’ll offer you a back injury, an operation for your injury, don’t have it put up with the pain for as long as you can, don’t have that operation, and I came back to Cosford by sea, I had to get myself on the ship, in a hammock with a bad back was a problem, and when I approached the navel steward about it, I said ‘I’m coming home with an injury to my back, I’m going to hospital, I can’t get up in one of them’ he said ‘well according to this sheet you’re not bed bound or anything, so I can’t give you a bed in the hospital, when its not on your sheet’ so I had to manage, I got back alright, and I got examined at RAF Cosford, and the surgeon, two surgeons there was, they did some tests with me and then got me sitting on a chair to drop my head onto my chest, and they kept saying no you’re putting your head down, I want you to drop it, let it drop off, and eventually I did drop it, and I jumped off the chair with this pain down my leg and they said now right what it is, you’ve got a slipped disc we can put that right with an operation. Straight away I thought of what I’d been told, so I said ‘well have you got an alternative?’ He said ‘yes you can have a plaster jacket on for up to 3 months if its not right by then, well you’ve got no other -, you’ll have to have the operation’ and I got that jacket on, and sent home a month, and two days every month back to have the jacket checked, but them 3 months I was dancing 3 or 4 nights a week with no problem with the jacket on, and within two days of getting that jacket off the pain was back, and by then I knew about the operation, and I said straightaway ‘I’ll have the operation’ and they did operate on it, and they discharged me from the hospital A1, and I said ‘I’ve gone passed my date when I should have been home’ I said ‘I was in hospital when my de-mob date came up’ i said ‘and I am going back to the job where I was, its heavy engineering and lifting’ they said there is no problem with that but you won’t ever be able to touch your toes no matter how fit you get. So I came home and I did, I went back to the job, as soon as I was fit I was playing football and I played till I was 34, and it was only in later life when I started getting back problems which I have now more or less permanently, but I don’t thinks its, well I’m told its nothing to do with the disc that I had, they just said, what they’ve told me is all the discs have crunched a bit up with age and if one of them touches the nerve that’s when you get the back ache, but I don’t have the pain down my leg like I used to have but as soon as I walk, I don’t walk very far before I’ve got back ache, so my limit is I walk up the street 5 minutes and there is a fire hydrant and I sit down there for two minutes and then I walk back again so my limit is about 10 minutes walk.
MK: But you were still playing football until your mid thirties?
MS: Sorry?
MK: You were still playing football until your mid thirties?
MS: Yes, yes.
MK: You never went professional then?
MS: No. I was, I played at Locking [inaudible] we had a good wing team, and there was another wing team there that was also good, and their team was all physical instructors except the centre forward was an amateur, and we had all amateur [unclear] we didn’t have any physical instructors, our own physical instructor, he was our trainer but he never played, and when we did the tests, I played in goal in the trials and the CO that was in charge of us, Wing Commander, he said ‘well’ he said ‘you’re quite a good goal keeper’ but he said, ‘but I must put you in team Haley because’ he said, ‘he’s a professional he plays for west ham so he’s got to go in this team’ and he played in the first game we played and they put me on the forward line which I’d never played out in my life and I said ‘oh this is no good for me’ and we lost two, one, and the Wing Commander was annoyed because he said ‘Haley should have stopped them’ so he said ‘in future I’m having you in goal for my wing team he can go to the station team and play for them as he’s been doing’ so, and I played in that wing team, and Tim gave me tips and coached me a bit, he was ever so good about it, and we played in the competition for the best wing team and we met the other team in the semi-final and they wanted us to meet really in the final, but we got drawn in the semi-final, so the officers, both officers said we’re going to make this like the final ‘we’ll have some chairs round and we’ll have officers come in from other places, you’re going to be playing in front of a crowd’ and we did, and we drew nil, nil, after 90 minutes, and we were still nil, nil, after extra time, and they said right now then we’re playing, no penalties in them days, we’ll play till a team scores, and we played another half hour, and I had the game of my life [emphasis on the game of my life] they could not beat me, and then this, after half an hour, we knew we had been playing a long time, it turned out to be half an hour extra, the centre forward came through and I had been out one to one with him several times and got the ball, you know, managed to stop what he did, but this last time he didn’t wait for me going out he shot straight away and I was just moving off the line to go and meet him, and I dove and I touched the ball and it went in off the post and the next minute I was on their shoulders, I was crying my eyes out, but they carried me off, what a great game I had. My PTI came to me and he said, ‘would you like to come off the aircrew course? and become a PTI’ he said ‘you’d make a good PTI’ and I said ‘if I come off the aircrew course I’ll have to go back to my reserve job in Sunderland, he said ‘well its a great pity because this chap here’ and he had a chap who was dressed in a suit and everything, he said’ he’s a scout for Cardiff City and [unclear] Athletic and he thinks you can make the grade as a professional, and he would get you into one of them clubs’ and I said, ‘well no’, I said, if I make the grade as a professional I want to play for Sunderland where I was born and that was it, and then two of the PTI’s off the other team when we had the meal afterwards they came not together one came up and said, ‘have you thought about playing professional after the war?’ I said ‘well if I’m good enough I would, always dreamed about being professional’ he said ‘well I’m with South end’ he said ‘if you survive the war and you’re still playing football contact Southend and I’ll give you my name and you’ll get a trial’ and then this other one came up and he said he was a professional with Tottenham Hotspur and he said the same after the war if you’re still playing and you’re fit contact Tottenham and mention my name and you’ll get a trial, so that was as near as I could get to being professional, until after the war when I came home with the plaster jacket on, I met the secretary of the local team I played for before I went in the air force [unclear] it was, the next village to where I lived and he said, ‘oh Maurice are you de-mobbed?’ Because was in civvies you see, I said ‘no’ he said ‘oh what a pity’ he said ‘I’ve had the coach from Sheffield Wednesday on, they are looking for a young goalkeeper to play in the reserve team and they’ve signed a professional from Scotland but they want another goalkeeper for the second team’ and I said ‘oh’ I said ‘I’m in a plaster jacket I can’t play football, I don’t know whether I’ll be able to play again’ and he said ‘what a pity’ he said, ‘because I thought, when I saw you I thought straight away Maurice you’re going to Sheffield’ [gentle laughter] so that was as near as I ever got. But I did have a good amateur career.
DK: So how many years were you actually in the Air force for?
MS: Four, four years, I joined in 43 as I say, I volunteered in 43 and joined in the September 43 so I had been on deferred service for 6 months, because after your aircrew medical they told you that you’d passed the medical and that you were accepted but you had to go on deferred service until there was vacancies on the training [pause]
DK: Just going back a bit, how many Manna operations did you do?
MS: We just did the one, because we, being a new crew the CO shared the aircraft, you see, they didn’t get your own aircraft until you had done a few operations, and although we had done four, we still hadn’t got our own aircraft so it was a case of we did that one and then, I don’t know whether, there was one particular time when the skipper was grounded a bit with a perforated ear drum and I don’t know whether that was why we only did one or whether the fact there wasn’t an aircraft available so -
DK: And can, do you have memories of the Dutch people down looking up?
MS: Yes the, oh yes the [pause] we went on the second day which was before the truce was signed and we knew the first lot had come back alright, but they warned us that the navigators must get the course right and you must be no higher than 500 feet or they can shot at, and I since learned after the war that some crews were told if you went off the track or too high the Germans would fire a red markers telling you to get back and then if, once you got back they would fire a green one to let you know, stay where you are but we didn’t know anything about that, we just knew that ours, with the skipper keeping the speed that we wanted, 160, because it was a low speed you see, and the navigator had to be dead right to keep on the track, and we went over the north sea at 300 feet, and then as we approached the coast the navigator come and said you’d better get up to 500 now because we will be crossing the coast shortly, so we crossed the coast and we all aware of the anti-aircraft guns following the aircraft round and hoping nothing would happen which thankfully it didn’t but one or two aircraft did have small arms fire, but they put that down to the fact flying over from the coast some outlying post would see an aircraft and just fire at it without realising that they shouldn’t, but we didn’t have any damage at all, and we got our food dropped at the racecourse Duindigt racecourse and it was. [slight pause] My memories myself of crossing the coast and getting it going in, was the flooded houses and everything, water everywhere and that, that’s my main memory of approaching, I can’t remember looking out and seeing crowds of people while we were flown in, but as soon as the navigator [corrects self] the bomb aimer said he’d got the racecourse in his sight then we were able to look out and I saw the crowds round the racecourse then all waving. You couldn’t believe it, how did they all know we were coming? But you see they’d got the word through the radio and they’d seen them the first day, so there was I suppose when we went on the second day, there would be more people out who had missed the first day.
DK: How did that make you feel dropping humanitarian supplies? [pause] How did that make you feel dropping humanitarian supplies?
MS: Oh its, well again we just knew that we had been told that people were starving and we were going to drop some food because the fact they had no food, they had no electric, they had no fuel to light fires, and most of the trees had been cut down, and any damaged houses all the woodwork was gone, so we knew it was pretty desperate, but my recollection at that time was that the biggest thing was all the houses were flooded, where they living? And they’d all gone into Rotterdam and Amsterdam you see, on to the higher grounds. But when we went over in 85 and met the people, who were at that time there, then we found out what life was like for them, where they had nothing to eat and no heating, the men were taken away to work in Germany, and so the people at home were the ladies, old men, and young children, and the young children we made friends with, one lady in particular she used to go with her bike 5 days or 6 days, and come back with what food they could, but she told us money was no good then, they took out maybe a spare pair of shoes or some clothing, anything you could barter with the farmers to get something, a few potatoes off them or something, whatever they’ve got spare, but she did tell us about one time, she’d been away 5 days, and they were told when they were cycling, cycles had no tyres they were just on the rims, when they were riding, if they heard aircraft they had to get in a ditch and stop riding, because the aircraft would shoot up anybody on the roads. So they had that to contend with, and then on the way back they had to make sure that the Germans didn’t see them coming back because they would take the food off them, because they were short of food you see, and she said this particular time, ‘I’d been 5 days away and was coming back and I’d not managed to pick anything up at all, I’d got no food other than one farmers wife said well he’s got nothing to offer you this time so I can’t trade you with anything, but we have some cracknel left off some pork that we’ve had you can take that’ and she said, ‘that was all’ and when she got home, she said ‘I went in and crying my eyes out and said to my mum, mum all I’ve got is this bit of cracknel I’ve not been able to get any more food and her mam said well I’ve still got some bread left and Mrs so and so next door they’ve got nothing, so take that into them and give them the’ [unclear] so what she brought back for her family was given to the next family. And she gave us, we had her over here to England one year and she gave us a list she’s done in that winter a thousand miles going out different places for 5 days at a time and back, and she mentioned the place and how many miles and so on and so and so, and it totalled up to a thousand miles, as a young girl going out and that’s the sort of thing they had to do. But it was then in 85 that we got to know what it was really like for them, and in the video that I’ve got that was made in 2010 general, forget his name, the general that was a boy at the time tells a story him and his mates, they were out looking for wood and they went on to a, [hesitation] to get some wood off some houses in the banned area, and he said the Germans turned up, and he said, unfortunately on that particular occasion the German, one of the German soldiers fired his gun and it hit his pal in the throat, he touches that when he tells you, and it hit him in the throat and he collapsed on me, and he said he died in my arms, so that was, it was after 85 that we got to know these things and it really brought it home to you then what we didn’t know when we actually dropped the food.
DK: Terrible conditions they were living in, [pause]terrible conditions?
MS: Oh yes, yes, you see they had nothing the photographs, you probably, you might have seen them [rustling] one old chap is stratting about and he comes up with a bottle, looks like sauce and he dipping his finger and eating that, but the children were allowed to go into the churns that the soup was brought in and rake the food out you see, because they had to give coupons and it was a measured like ladle, what they brought out and that was just one in every family, and of course they couldn’t get the rest, they would get as much as they could and as far as they were concerned it was empty, and the kids were allowed to go in and, dive in and eat it.
DK: I’ll just finish, I‘ll just ask you one final question, how do you look back now on your time with the RAF because it was only, I say only, it was four years, it was actually a small part of your life, how do you look back on it all these years later?
MS: I am pleased that I volunteered and went into the air force into aircrew but my main memory is operation Manna that one operation has brought so much into my life with friends that we’ve met in Holland since 85, and I met this Dutch lady at Lincoln when we were interviewed, she was an eight year old girl at the time, and she lives at Cambridge, and I’ve already spoken, and she’s spoken to me on the phone since and she wants to keep in touch because, I don’t know whether you’ve seen the video, what was, Songs of Praise, how she greeted me then we had met and talked in the room before we went out to there, and then the interviewer, a girl went, well, she was talking about what life was like for her in the war, the BBC girl was in tears you know, she didn’t know exactly what it had been like and then we went outside and she was told, the Dutch lady was told now we want you to meet Maurice for the first time when we go down there we’ll decide what’s the best place to do, and then they tried two or three places round where the flowers were and then eventually got me to stand on the corner and her to go across and then come in and greet me, and oh she did, it was a proper greeting, she really hugged me and everything, afterwards we had to go back to the hotel, they wanted to do a bit more filming, and my daughter [unclear] where we’d been watching she got hold of my arm, the daughter to help me, and the Dutch lady said ‘he doesn’t need you now he’s got me to help him’ and she cared and helped me back up into the hotel, and they asked us to wait in the lounge, we’re just going to prepare the room, we wanted to do a chat and when we went in, there was two chairs like we are now and a round table, two cups of tea and two tea cakes, two small cakes on two -, and the interviewer said ‘now then, we want you to sit there and we want you to have a conversation just as like friends now’ she said ‘we’ve got the full story from you, so just if there’s anything you want to talk about to here or you want to talk to Maurice you can have a little bit of private conversation but you must not eat those cakes’ and we thought well dear me [slight laughter] you know and we had the cups of tea and she, well we talked to each other while they were doing this extra filming and then when they’d finished, they said ‘right that’s the end of the filming you can now eat your cakes, I didn’t want you eating cakes while I was filming you’ so that was why, and I said ‘well while we’ve been talking to you we’ve neither of us has had a cup of tea to drink, its gone cold’ and she said ‘don’t worry put the kettle on make them some fresh tea’ so we had fresh tea and ours cakes afterwards. The husband of the Dutch lady came to me and he said ‘while you were talking about my wife’ he said ‘I hear that you play organ?’ I said ‘yes I’ve got an organ at home’ I said, ‘and I play every other week at the chapel down in Colsterworth’ I said, ‘take my turn at, its every other week I play now’ and he said, ‘well, you said chapel’ so he said ‘if it was chapel it means your a Methodist’ I said ‘yes’ he said, ‘well, I’m a Methodist and I’m a local preacher down in Cambridge and I go to places that have got an organ but haven’t got organists’ and he said ‘I have to play the hymns’ so he said ‘I not only preach, I play the hymns at them places’ and he said, ‘it would be nice some mornings, Sunday morning’ to his wife he said, ‘it would be nice if Sunday morning we could come up when Maurice is on the organ and go to the service there’ so whether they will or not I don’t know, but I told the steward down the chapel, but he says ‘oh’ he said ‘we’ll make them welcome if they want to come’.
DK: Hopefully they’ll come
MS: Yeah, but -
DK: Ok well I’ll stop that there
MS: Yes
DK: Thats great, thanks you very much.
Dublin Core
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Interview with Maurice Snowball
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-06-26
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Sound
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ASnowballM150626
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:56:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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Maurice Snowball was born and educated in Sunderland. After school, he served an engineering apprenticeship with a local family firm and was a member of the Home Guard. Maurice was a keen amateur footballer and had hopes of turning professional, but aged 21, he volunteered to join the RAF as a flight engineer and was called forward for initial training at RAF Bridlington in December 1944.
He discusses his time in flight engineer training at RAF St Athan and subsequent duties as a flight engineer on Halifax and Lancaster aircraft with 1662 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Blyton. He recalls the operational duties with 550 Squadron, North Killingholme where he took part in four bombing operations - 2 of them at night raids (close to 9 hour round trips), and operations over Heligoland and Bremen.
He reflects on the differences he encountered as a flight engineer between the Halifax and Lancaster, how the Halifax was spacious and comfortable; the Lancaster cramped and only a small tip-up seat for his flight engineer position.
He talks about the main memory of his time in the RAF, Operational Mana, and his later conversations with a lady from Holland who was 8 years old at the time. He retrained as an MT driver when his Squadron was disbanded and was demobilised in October 1947.
Maurice later reaffirmed his affiliation with the RAF. In later years, he moved to Rutland and retired from his last job as a mechanical foreman at RAF Cottesmore in the 1980s.
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
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Chris Cann
550 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
flight engineer
Halifax
Home Guard
Lancaster
military service conditions
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Blyton
RAF North Killingholme
RAF St Athan
sport
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/644/8914/ASpencerR150720.2.mp3
d4c05bf720e977abfa2ad1246750e227
Dublin Core
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Title
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Spencer, Reg
R Spencer
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Spencer, R
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Reg Spencer (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Reg Spencer, Mr Reg Spencer at his home.
DK “and your schooldays?”
RS. “Schooldays were, I was born in Wembley Middlesex. Unfortunately my father, who worked up in Westminster area on electricity sub stations, unfortunately he was deaf and then he went blind, so he was deaf and blind and had to give up work so he decided he was going to buy himself a plot of land down in Essex and build a bungalow, is this .. ok then? Which he did at a place called Point Clear, which is near St Osyth in Essex. So I ended up going to school in the village of Essex until I left school in nineteen thirty nine. Then of course the war started in nineteen thirty nine in September. Prior to going to the air force, I was working basically on farm work, all kinds of farm work ending up on a threshing machine and what not.”
RS. “I joined the ATC at Clacton on Sea prior to going into the air force, so I was in the ATC for three or four years before I was called up for National Service in nineteen fortythree, February fortythree when I was eighteen years old on my eighteenth birthday. I Went to RACA at St Johns Wood which was Lords Cricket ground aircrew recruiting centre. From there we had two or three days having inoculations and getting kitted out and one thing and another. From there I was posted to Bridlington, Yorkshire for ITW which was Initial Training Wing. We were there three or four weeks doing square bashing and various lessons. One of the things we had to do was go out towards the sea over the promenade and have clay pigeon shooting and em being an ex farm worker when we had to shoot rabbits and one thing and another, I knocked out four out of five clay pigeons as they were in those days. So I thought I was going to end up as a gunner as some sort in the air force, but from there I was posted to number two Radio School at Yatesbury for Wireless Operator training. I was there for two or three years [sic] and from there I went to a little place called LLandwrog in North Wales for operational training which was, ere, flying Ansons and we went there for three or four weeks. From there we went to Desborough flying Wellingtons for another three or four weeks. When we went to Desborough we were all chucked into a hanger sort of thing, all aircrew people Wireless Operators like myself, Gunners, Pilots, Engineers and there you crewed up. You just walked about and if someone said “have you got a crew?” you said no. “Would you like to join us as a Wireless Operator, you said “yes.” So we eventually made a crew up at Desborough.”
DK. “I have always been quite interested in how you crewed up. How you all got together and made your own crews rather than being ordered to. Did you find that worked well?”
RS. “ It seemed to because although we were only a crew for a short period we were quite happy and worked together, so on that basis it worked. A lot of people thought you were ordered to be a crew but no you were all chucked into the pile and you sorted yourself out. So we were at Desborough for some time on em, Wellingtons just ordinary cross country flying, fighter affiliation that sort of thing. From there we went to a place called Woolfox Lodge not far from you. That was Heavy Conversion Unit, so we went onto Lancasters at Woolfox Lodge, again there for a short period [short pause-“we can edit that out”] Woolfox Lodge, Heavy Conversion Unit, so that was our final training. From there we went to 514 squadron at Waterbeach. We arrived there in the February.”
DK. “If I can take you back, you trained as a Wireless Operator there?”
RS. “At Yatesbury, yes ok [slight pause] Yes we arrived at Waterbeach in forty five which is late on in the war and em, we carried out several operations over Germany.”
DK “and which squadron was this with?”
RS. “514. Yes at Waterbeach. Several operations over Germany. Eventually the European war was coming to a close and it was agreed with the Germans and with the Americans that we could fly over Holland and do Operation Manna which you obviously know of. I did three trips on Operation Manna over to Holland and also at that time as the war finished we were flying to France to bring back our troops who had been Prisoners of War under German occupation. Also we were flying to Italy doing the same operation bringing people back from Italy who had been Prisoners of War.”
DK. “How many operations did you do, bombing operations over Germany?”
RS. “I would think fourteen or fifteen something like that.”
DK. “And how did you feel with the Manna Operations, did you see the Dutch people?”.
RS. “We could see the Dutch people, prior to taking off.”
[Interruption by a telephone ringing in the background.]
RS. “Where did I get up to?”
DK. “operation Manna”
RS. “Operation Manna, yes when we went to get our parachutes we were given permission to help ourselves to very cartridges which were used for distress purposes and one thing and another.”
DK “I will just move the phone in case it interrupts”
RS. “So as we approached the target and mind you, you are only over the target for a second sort of thing, I stood by with very cartridges and was firing them as were other people, so it was almost like Blackpool illuminations, which the Dutch people appreciated, you could see them on the ground waving to us up there. You could also as you went over occupied territory see Germans standing at the cross roads in their sentry boxes and that sort of thing. You could also see one or two tanks and that sort of thing but em, yes I did three operations on Operation Manna.”
DK. “how did that make you feel when the Germans weren’t shooting at you, they were holding to the cease fire?”
RS. “That’s right, yes the agreement I think was that we were allowed to fly down to fifty feet and they would not attack. If we did any as you know they were quite free to em, open fire against us.”
DK. “But the Italian, bringing prisoners back from there er, that was quite entertaining because you met people who had been Prisoners of War for three or four years and one particular little instance that happened, we had loaded up and they had about twenty troops sitting on the floor of the Lancaster and the em, chap who sat next to me when we took off he said “how long will it be before we get back to England?” I said four, four and a half hours I suppose. He said “will you let me know when we get to the French coast?” I said yes sure. So we approach the French coast and I said to him it’s the French coast down there. Just where the Wireless Operator sits there is a very small window and you can see just in front of the engines the ground and what not. So he leant over “yes the French coast and will you let me know when we get to the English coast, how long will it be?” I said about five to ten minutes that all. I said to him “there’s the English coast over there” and as he came over he was sick all the way down the back of my neck and being a prisoner of war poor chap it stunk to high heaven. Anyway we landed at Ford in Suffolk where the WVS and the NAAFI were waiting to receive these troops and as I got to the hatch to go out a volunteer WVS or something like that said “come on darling we’ll soon get you sorted out.” I said I was one of the crew. Anyway they washed it all down and I got over it so that was that little funny incident that happened.”
DK. “Eventually after Operation Manna and em, bringing troops back from Italy and France of course the war finished and of ninety per cent of aircrew I should think were made redundant. They were just told they were not flying anymore, you got to remuster to finish your National Service. So from there we were taken to Bruntingthorpe, thousands of Aircrew were at Bruntingthorpe all coming from different squadrons and what not. We were interviewed asked what would you like to do to finish your service of. So I thought when I was on the station motor transport seemed like a nice job driving about the airfield, so I volunteered for that. Eventually I was posted to Blackpool for a motor driving course which like the other nineteen on the course, we all passed. From there you were supposed to fill in a form to say where you would like to be posted to. Well my parents were living at Clacton on Sea and my wife was living at Wembley with her Mother. So I put down East Anglia or the London area and one of the chaps in the billet said “what have you put down?” and I said “either London or East Anglia.” He said “you will end up in Scotland or Wales,” so I said “well see.” By pure coincidence I was posted to the White City, you know the White City in London which is a Maintenance Unit for the MOD and we had Humber Snipes there. Beautiful cars and we had to go up to London and take somebody wherever they wanted to go and back to the White City. When I first got there the adjutant said to me “I’m sorry but we haven’t got any billets here, we have some places where you can lodge.” He said “do you know anyone in this area?” I said “well my wife lives at Wembley” “ah well we’ll billet you at Wembley” So I ended up em with my kitbag, knocked on the door at home and my wife opened the door “hello what are you doing here?” “I’ve been billeted on you” and I stayed there for three or four weeks. She was being paid by the Air Ministry until I was then posted to Bicester. Do you know Bicester? That was a maintenance unit. And em, all round the perimeter track either side they had vehicles of all sorts and it was my job to go round with a compressor on a little low loader Bantam, with two airmen and have a look to see if any of the tyres on the vehicles were flat or spongy, stop and pump them up. [Pause] Then eventually we were detailed to move a lot of the vehicles from Bicester up to Carlisle which was another Maintenance Unit. So we used to get a lorry or trailer on the back or bowser of something and go up to Carlisle Maintenance Unit and make our own way back by train. And em from Bicester I went to Pershore in charge of a parachute department, issuing parachutes and one thing and another there. I was only there for a few weeks and I went back to Kirkham near Blackpool, transport again and from there I was demobbed, nineteen fortyseven.”
RS. “When I went from 514 squadron we volunteered to go to 617 squadron which was training for Tiger Force and we went there about June forty five. Off course the European war finished in forty five in August so em, we didn’t have to go to the Far East all the Aircrew were made redundant and I went on to motor transport.”
DK. “How did you feel when you didn’t have to go onto Tiger Force now going to the Far East. How did that make you feel?”
RS. “Well at the time we were like anybody else in the Air Force, we were volunteers and we were keen I suppose to go out to the Far East and carry on with the Japanese, because we were going to be re-equipped with Lincolns instead of Lancasters, that was supposed to be a better aircraft as far as defence was concerned. As we said the Japanese war finished and we didn’t have to go, but having thought about it, even with our Lincolns to go out to the Far East against the Japanese with their Kamikaze sort. You didn’t know if you were going to do one operation or, if you were going to be fortunate enough to go on to the end of the war sort of thing, so that was that.”
DK. “Can I take you back a bit further as a Wireless Operator, what were your duties on the aircraft?”
RS. “Well basically you had to check in every hour with em er home base sort of thing, to see if there had been any change. Sometimes, not that it happened to us, sometimes it would be called off and you would just come back. Or there would be a change em because of wind direction or something or other you would have to advise the Navigator to veer to the right to get there or one thing or another. You were there also for em emergencies, if you were running out of fuel and you couldn’t get to Base, you would have to get in touch with Base or get in touch with Headquarters and they will say instead of coming to Waterbeach go to Woodhall, Woodbridge not Woodhall the emergency landing. We did loose an engine once going out actually and we talked to the crew and decided to carry on. Coming back the Pilot said “we have one engine missing” so they said “divert to Manston” So we went down to Manston which had one of the overshoot runways, at the end they had sand or gravel or something so you could overshoot to land. At that particular time when we were coming back I stood up in the astrodome, “you know the astrodome” which is just near the Wireless Operators seat and stood there looking out, you know, there’s an aircraft over there. So I said aircraft “so and so, so and so, so and so” and the Rear Gunner swung round and the Mid Upper and they said “where abouts? oh, oh, I can see it” and it gradually came in like that and got to within shooting distance sort of thing and it turned out to be a Mustang. He came along and waggled his wings like that, he could see us. We said ok and that and he just peeled off and off he went. We made it home on our own. Other than that we had no damage to the aircraft at all.”
DK. “Your operations before Manna, they were to Germany?”
RS. “Yes they were to Germany. The furthest down we went was to Regensburg, that was an eight hour trip which was the longest trip. Others were going into Germany, three hours out and three hours back sort of thing. Keil, we went to Keil two and a half hours, three hours I suppose. The most of them were daylight we only did two or three night operations. The first night we went we had the Group Captain who was the Station Commander at Waterbeach. He came as second pilot to see that were acting as a responsible crew and then we obviously went off on our own.”
RS. “I shouldn’t say it really I suppose but I consider it the best four years of my life, because in many respects I lived in Essex as a farmers boy sort of thing and just elementary education at the local church school. I wasn’t high and mighty with education and whatnot and em when I got into the billet with the lads and that sort of thing, comradeship and going out together and whatnot em. I think in fact I wanted to stay in. When I was at Kirkham with the em, transport there was a chap in our billet, his job was, his job was, driving a Group Captain about [pause]. He had a Humber Snipe, the Group Captain would say “ I want to visit so and so” might have been up in Coningsby or whatever and he would take him. Of course being the Group Captains driver he was treated on the Station as if he was the cats whiskers. He said it was a nice job, So I said “why are you packing it in?” “The wife wants me to come out, so I’m going out. Why are you interested in the job?” So I said that would be ideal for me. So I phoned the wife and said I had a chance to stay in the Air Force.”
Mrs RS. “Doing what?”
RS. I said “being chauffer to a Group Captain”
Mrs RS “ oh that’s not much of a job is it?”
RS. “It’s quite a good job really”
Mrs RS. “No you come out. How long are you going to be in for?”
RS. I said “three years”
Mrs RS. “No you come out.”
RS. So eventually I took her to her word and I came out.
RS. “But when we were going to, another little story, or thought we were going to Tiger Force I spoke to the Wife and I said to her, “how about us getting married?” ‘cause we were already engaged, so she said “I don’t know, what happens if you go out to Japan?” So I said “don’t look on the dull side, you will get marriage allowance and you will be able to save that if you can, so when I come back you will have a nice little nest egg to set up home” So we decided to get married on August the eighteenth, nineteen forty-five. So I went to the CO that my wife and I, girlfriend want to get married. “Yes alright then, when is it?” So I told him, so and so and so and so, seventy two hours leave. So I came home to Wembley where the Wife was living. Half the Crew came down with me when I got married and I don’t think they do it so much in these days, but the Best Man stood up and read telegrams of congratulations and whatnot and there was one there from the CO, well the adjutant to say that my leave had been extended eh.” [pause]
DK. “When would these have been taken?” [Probably reference to photographs]
RS. “At em Yatesbury, that’s a fallacy really, that’s in the ATC. And that’s em.”
DK. “you look particularly young there.”
RS. “And I was, I was only eighteen when I went in the Air Force. [unreadable] with the old white flash which indicated you were under training. And we were nearly all told to go down to the local photographer and have your photograph taken, and of course they put us all in Irving. They weren’t on issue to us in the Lancaster, ‘cause of the heating was ok and you did not need them.”
DK. “ What was your thoughts er as to the Lancaster itself compared to the earlier aircraft that you flew in the Wellington you did your training in?”
RS. “Oh there was no comparison really.”
DK. “did it give you confidence”
RS. “Oh yes, yes we used to take off and never gave it a thought that you wasn’t coming back.”
RS. “Carrying onto the story of getting married em, seventy two and they pushed it up to seven days and em, we got married and this year it will be our seventieth anniversary.”
DK. “Congratulations.”
RS. “So that was” [unreadable]
DK. “What about your crew themselves, did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?”
RS. “No, Vi could you go and get my Log Book, it’s in the top drawer?”
RS. “No I tried several times to get in touch with them, ‘cause when we went to Bruntingthorpe when all the crews went down there. You were just told to get in that lorry or get in that lorry sort of thing depending on what trade you wanted to follow up, they just disappeared, but I tried several times to get in touch with them. But em and em and of course the crew were made up of a Pilot and he came from, I don’t know, he was South African he was out training pilots out there.”
DK. “he was South African?”
RS.”Yes and he came back here because he wanted to get onto Operations, so he came back here. So that was the Pilot and then there was the Flight Engineer who also got his wings em for flying, he remustered as Flight Engineer.”
Mrs RS. [Some garbled talk] “A bit old fashioned now, but there was the Crew and he was the Best Man, Eric was the Best Man”
DK. “Eric was the Pilot, was he?”
Mrs RS “No the Pilot did not come”
DK. “Give it to me please, that’s not the one I was thinking of, there is only four of them there. I thought I put a photograph in here this morning, there we are”
DK “Ah, that’s the whole crew”
RS. That’s the whole crew, that was the Pilot, his name was Winkworth.
DK. “South African?”
RS. “Yes but we used to say, just Skipper or otherwords. That was Eric Coxon, Flight Engineer and he has wings as well and he remustered, he passed his Pilots obviously because he got his wings and then. This side we used to call him Pat because he was Irish, Navigator, and this one we use to call him Slaughter, Eric Slaughter, so we called him Todd, ha ha, he was the Bomb Aimer. That’s myself and Paddy, little Irishman there, he was the Rear Gunner, we always called him Paddy. He was an amateur boxer pre Air Force days. And of course the other one was a chap named Jock Shields, Scotsman, he was Mid Upper Gunner. That was the Crew, but no I haven’t managed to get in touch with any of them at all.
DK. “And were the rest of the Crew, British, English?”
RS. “No we had two Irishmen and a Scotsman.”
DK. “Two Irishmen, a Scotsman, South African”
RS. “Two English, yes.”
DK. “ That was something very much about Bomber Command, very cosmopolitan organisation of people from all across the Empire?”
RS. “That right, it was the same when we went to Manna up in Lincoln some months ago. The number of people there that were from New Zealand, Australia, Canada, all over the World who had been in Bomber Command.
DK. “Ok Thanks for that I will stop you there.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Reg Spencer
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-20
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASpencerR150720
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:27:50 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Wembley born, but educated in Essex, Reg Spencer left school in 1939. In 1943, on his 18th birthday, he was called up for National Service. Following initial training at RAF Bridlington he was trained as a wireless operator at No. 2 Radio School at Yatesbury, before being operationally trained on Anson aircraft at Llandwrog in North Wales. Reg reflects on how, following his operational training, there was no formal aircraft crew selection, rather all new aircrew - gunners, pilots, engineers etc – congregated in a hangar and “you sorted yourselves out” into crews. Crew training on Wellingtons at Desborough preceded a posting to the Heavy Conversion Unit flying Lancasters at Woolfox Lodge and then in 1945 onto operational duties with 514 Sqn at Waterbeach.
Operational duties included up to 14 bombing operations over Germany, three trips on Operation Mana and a number of flights bringing prisoners of war back from France and Italy. Reg also describes the typical duties of aircrew wireless operator -staying in contact with base operations and keeping the crew informed of any operational changes. When the war ended Reg re-mustered to work in Motor Transport and was posted to the MOD Maintenance Unit at White City and then on to the Maintenance Unit at Bicester. He finished his National Service at Kirkham near Blackpool. Reg married in 1945. At the time of the interview they were approaching their 70th wedding anniversary.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chris Cann
514 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
love and romance
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Desborough
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Woolfox Lodge
RAF Yatesbury
service vehicle
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/647/8917/ATinsleyR150604.2.mp3
1eeab019890c4025d5470d7ef66f9a51
Dublin Core
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Title
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Tinsley, Dick
Richard Tinsley
R Tinsley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Tinsley, R
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dick Tinsley (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 115 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is David Kavanagh the interviewee is Dick Tilsley the interview is taking place in Mr Tilsleys home on the 4th June 2015.
DK: So can you remember which year it was, that you joined the Airforce?
RT: Yeah, it must have been 1944 I suppose.
DK: 1944...so how old would you have been then?
RT: Mmm 20
DK: So what were you doing prior to that? Were you in education?
RT: Education I suppose and Public Schooling so yes i was.
DK: So what school was that?
RT: In Northampton, one of the public schools [pauses] we farmers were often sent to these public schools.
DK: And what was your reasoning for wanting to join the airforce?
RT: Well I knew I was going to mmm I had....errr my family had always been in farming and we lived at Moulton, do you know where Moulton is?
DK: Yes, yeah
RT: Near Holbeach and my Mother came from Northamptonshire as a Farmer's daughter and they got married had three sons, and I was the third. The eldest one had got set into Farming before the war started, and when the second one came in he'd already joined the Territorials
DK: Right
RT: Only assuming only being , mmm what do you call it [?] patriotic I think and of course they were the best people, you know, the go getters, they they wanted to do something like that. We went to Lincoln and they just paraded around a bit once upon a [unclear] that sort of thing. So when war declared they were called up straight away.
DK: Yeah?
RT: I was at home ,still at school I think then I remember the local err army [what do you call it] Anti-aircraft unit?
DK:Yep
RT: Arrived in our park which was was just a field that's all, and they set up shop and searchlight and I thought it was wonderful, good old war, as I was about 16 or something but i think we had all heard so much about the first war and the blood and guts of the trenches anything to get out of that or get into what soppy thing there was going at school, anything was soppier than trenches.
DK; had your Father been in the First World War?
RT: No
DK; No?
RT: I lost an uncle
DK: An uncle ok
RT: In other words his brother-in-law he got in perhaps he was drafted, or...I never knew him and he was sent to the front and they were resting in a barn behind the line as the Germans dropped a shell on them and he was wounded in the back and died.
DK:Oh dear
RT: Yeah that's the second time....and emmm it might have been the other.....
DK: So you've decided to join the airforce then, yeah?
RT: Mmm I was at school it was quite a rough military day bolshing you bossing you , so I had a rifle for the day you had one...you had one err you had one year, day a term which they did sort of military exercises.
DK: Right.
RT: And erm and so and of course when they started the air force thing it was much more lexid to go out to aerodromes and in [unclear] and all that and err when it came to been called up and then we were eventually called up and went to grading [?] station.
DK: Right.
RT : That was in Bedfordshire somewhere and then we were sworn in and all that, then we went to London and Lords cricket ground where they did injections for you and all that sort of thing. After that I decided , [unclear] decided what are they going to do with you, I don't know how well we passed, I don't think we knew but it was good enough.
DK: Yeah, err you went in immediately then for err pilot training, was that …..?
RT: Well everybody was yeah
DK: Everybody together right
RT: Yeah
DK: So….
RT: On the whole the navigator was the second most err posetic and brightest then you get the wireless op ,then the bomb aimer then gunner. They hadn't got me on on to being a pilot yet because then they sent you, if you passed that pilot you went to a grading school just near coventry, it's not too far from here, where you did twelve hours flying, and err they assessed you as to whether you were fit for pilots training.
DK: And that the first time you were at the controls?
RT: Yes.
DK: Flying?
RT: Yes it was a Tiger Moth.
DK: Tiger Moth yeah.
RT: Then they sent you home and waited until they wanted to call you up to go to Canada. So they sent us to the Queen Mary which was docked at the Clyde and we cruised across to Canada, you might say this was a dangerous trip I suppose they were getting away with taking these fast liners and risking getting in the old....errrr caught up in the German submarines.
DK: Mmmm yeah
RT: Which how they got away with it I don't know but they did get away and they filled them full and on the return journey they were full of American troops absolutely jammed full bringing them over for D-day which was quite a lot we did, anyway .....and then what happened?
DK: You've got to Canada...
RT: And err [coughs] forgive me muttering but i've got a very weary brain.....I don't mind the weary brain....but....
DK: That's ok take your time.
RT: It's... errr….
DK: You've arrived in Canada then?
RT: Yeah there was a PDO a personnel reception centre.
DK: Right.
RT: Which was a whole aerodrome full of personnel, err personnel huts where they held you, and kept you amused, held parades, this, that and the other until they got an airfield to send you too, and that you didn't get any decision on that at all you just do when you're told that was about four days out to Regina that's roughly where we were at, dead centre of Canada, in the Prairies.
DK: Right, right.
RT: You got contact with them then ?
DK: No.
RT: Oh... then they had a course on a single engine plane which was a thing called a Cornell.
DK: Cornell yeah.
RT: A Fairchild Cornell yes.
DK: It’s listed in your logbook. Cornell
RT: Yeah....is it there?
DK: It's in there yes...you are doing aerobatics there.
RT: Mmmm...
DK: Did you like the Cornell?
RT: Yes, yes.
DK: Doing acrobatics there.
RT: Yes, then some went down to America.
DK: Right.
RT: The Americans were helping us out you see, then they went over to single engine planes but I never went on that.
DK: So how long were you in Canada for then?
RT: I was there 10 months.
DK: Really [emphasis]?
RT: Yeah well that was because, well that was a good do because I was out of the war for 10 months and things went by and .....[laughs].
DK: Do you remember much about Canada?
RT: Yeah yeah.......didn't matter to me it was as cold as could be in winter [laughter]and er that whole...that whole aerodrome belonged to the British, well it belonged to the the Canadian air force but that where the RCAF came in.
DK: Oh right I see yeah yeah.
RT: Then, then after we finished that we went on to what we called Senior flying training corps which was fast that one,er.... it was err was what do you call it, sometimes I think of these things and sometimes can't, Richard doesn't help as he wasn't there?
DK: There's an aircraft called the Crane here....
RT: Yeah that's it, the Cessna Crane.
DK: It seems like you were flying Ansons and Cranes.
RT: Ansons were British aeroplanes, if we did anything in training, in training Cranes then after 6 months, can't think what would take all that time but it would...
DK: Looking at the log book there are a lot of flights on the Crane right through February 1944.
RT: Yeah that would be.
DK: Nearly everyday.
RT: Yeah that would be, that was a twin engine plane they were sort of the general idea that was for Bombers.
DK Then the Anson from March 1944?
RT: I don't know, I don't remember that, I honestly don't remember the Anson, there wouldn't be many they were British versions...........they come out of date as far as a Bomber came they were our efforts for getting the war to have a good bomber Avro, Avro [emphasis].
DK: Avro Anson yeah?
RT: Yeah.
DK So you've then come back to England?
RT: Yes I came back.
DK: Was that on the Queen Mary again?
RT: No, it wasn't
DK: Arrh another ship?
RT: Yes, I can't remember the name of it, but it will be on there I should think, [pause] it could have been any of those but it will be on there I'm sure.
DK: Yeah, I can't find it at the moment. It says here you went to Derby then?
RT: What for?
DK: Barniston?
RT: Burnaston.
DK: Burnaston, sorry.
RT: Burnaston yes, that was a flying course within UK conditions, Burnaston.
DK: So was it a big difference, flying in Canada than flying in the UK?
RT: Mmmm I remember one of the Australian, Canadian he was in charge of us on the area, he said "yous boys in the old country, say you'll get lost" [laughter].
RT: Then of course at that time we were relying on the Canadians services far more.
DK: Then you come back to Burnaston?
RT: Mmm.
DK: Then you are flying de Havilland 82. Do you remember much about that?
RT: I don't, I'll see if i can recall it.
DK : It's the Dominie I think?
RT: Oh dear, DH yeah....[pause] flying around training again.
DK: It says its number 22 EFTS is that familiar?
RT: It's familiar but....
DK: I've noticed you.....
RT: I rather think it was a twin engine.
DK: A twin engine yeah, and then you got the Dakota here.
RT: Ah that….
DK: RAF Leicester East.
RT: The war had ended.
DK: Arrh ok.
RT: Leicester East was the Transport Command place, and...
DK: Sorry I'm jumping ahead of myself here.
RT: And, they sent us out to Cairo, in these Dakotas but they were going to have to organise what they conquered in the Middle East, so one fine day they flew overnight to the centre of Cairo airport.
DK Really?
RT: And, err...
DK: So just going back a little bit here, February 1945 you’re with the Heavy Conversion Unit.
RT: Yes.
DK: At Langar, 1669 heavy conversion unit, err, was that the first time you saw the Lancaster?
RT: Well it wasn't in my case, but ........ but it was really but from somewhere I just had a day out with them , we just had a trip.
DK: What did you think when you first saw the Lancaster, laid eyes on it first saw it? Did it fill you with confidence?
RT: Yeah i think so, i don’t I can't remember anything about that bit or the bit we did, then until the war ended or rather until the ...err.
DK: Do you remember much about Langar and the Heavy Conversion Unit?
RT: No,no we just arrived and we were got into crews, we were all old soldiers at that time.
DK: I’m just noticing here you have got a mention of an engine fire.
RT: Yes I presume that there was.
DK: You help put out a fire, do you remember that? [ laughter]
RT: No i don't at all.....
DK: Come on.....drive it down....poke him, poke him [laughter].
RT: I do remember it now, but I can't say I'd remember otherwise.
DK: Do you remember much about the incident of the engine fire?
RT: No, not at all it was over Wales.
DK: Over Wales?
RT: It was on a training trip over Wales I'd forgotten all about it.
DK: You landed ok though?
RT: Yes, and that was it no doubt it was only a scare, or something but anyway well whatever it was the fire extinguisher put it out and it wasn’t long till we got back to the airfield.
DK: So following the log book then you then joined 115 Squadron at Witchford.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember much about Witchford?
RT: Yeah it was 3 miles outside Ely typical wartime airfield built in 19....built just near where I went to school, where I went to school is.
DK: Coincidence [laughter].
RT: Witchford, I gathered from reading books later that there was two squadrons stationed there, so obviously they built airfields, bomber airfields as fast as they could.
DK: So I'm looking at the logbook here it's got March the 18th, would that have been your first operation there? Its Buschstrass?
RT: Bruchstrasse.
DK: Bruchstrasse, sorry.
RT: Apparently it was an oil refinery in the Ruhr, we weren't told very much about about it, except that we missed it.
DK: Oh [laughs].
RT: Apparently the beam was set, they had got it wrong.
DK: Right
RT: But anyway plenty of them missed, yep.
DK: Well, it says here it was a daylight raid, got in brackets there day, so you were flying in the day?
RT: Yeah a bit of both.
DK: Right ok.
RT: They were the...red were night and….
DK: Right.
RT: What does that say?
DK: Thats green.
RT: what does that say?
DK: That's err Heligoland?
RT: Yeah that's an island south of Hamburg somewhere.
DK: So there was two operations to kill on the 9th and 13th April.
RT: Yes i suppose so, yes.
DK: Do you remember much about those?
RT: No i dont, we were just told by the bomb aimer afterward that we didn't hit the target presumably we couldn't see it, we weren't told much, then the war ended.
DK: So then into May then, so there's 1, 2, 3, 4 so that looks like about 5 operations.
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So five operations and then three operation Manna operations?
RT: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound about right, so do you remember much about Operation Manna? How did that make you feel knowing you were dropping food rather than bombs?
RT: I’m sure it made you feel very good, we didn't know what we was in for first time, we was going to Germany with bombs at 20,000 feet and the next day we were going ten hundred feet or whatever it was over the Hague or Dane Hauger [?] whatever the Danes call it.
DK: The Hague , so the food drops were at low level then?
RT: Yes well as low as they dare because it mustn't burst they were either in double sacks or whatever they chose.
DK: Do you remember seeing the people on the ground?
RT: Yeah.
DK: And what were they doing?
RT: Waiting for something to happen, to see what they could get.
DK: Were they waving?
RT: Yeah.
DK: So you could see all that?
RT: Oh yes I can clearly remember one plane flying nearly along side us they got a sack a sack of food stuck in his bomb bays when he came back no doubt it got dropped in somewhere.
DK: So at that point then the war in Europe had ended?
RT:yeah just.
DK: Just yes.
RT: I think you will see that's there the.....
DK: What were your feelings at that time then were you.....?
RT: Without a doubt very pleased now that's ...one thing that's quite interesting coz those crew members there about three of them so bored with things presumably they were somewhat aware it wasn't really dangerous anymore, they wanted to see the their names up on the list… I was one if I had a job to do I'd do it, I probably wanted the job but didn't want to be the end bit the end bit of meat.
DK: So how long after the war then did you stay in the air force? Was it another…..
RT: As little as possible.
DK: You wanted to get out did you?
RT: Yes yes, I never wanted to get in and I just was a good boy did as I was told and passed exams as I was supposed to.
DK: So can you remember what year you actually left?
RT: Oh, now that would be, it will be in there somewhere [refers to logbook].
DK: You are still here, 1947.
RT: It would be then, it was the Spring.
DK: So you left in 1947? Thats after a period in the Middle East?
RT: Yeah we were sitting about the helm a lot doing nothing, because they over calculated the amount of aircraft they had to keep in the Middle East to keep things working.
DK: They had to find you something to do.
RT: Yes find us something to do, pity really it was a stage of one's life when you wanted to get on with something.
DK: Just going back to the end of war in Europe, at that period was there any mention to you about perhaps having to go out and fight in the Far East?
RT: No.
DK: You didn't no.
RT: No the others who went back, straight away and they split us all up, no doubt I'd go for a longer leave at home, but they kept very strictly to this, what do you call it? Code of release by time and… when your number came up because you had been in for so long, and you were so old or so I’d got out.
DK: So how old would you have been when you left?
RT: Forty Six [?].
DK: And after that did you go back into farming at that point?
RT: Mmm, yeah all that time sitting in the Middle East for about a year, sitting on my bum really. It was in the desert I got jaundice, nothing apart from a waste of time for everybody, I could see what the plan was, it was just they wanted things to be able to go to North Africa someone to go down to Nairobi and do this or that. [pause] Have you seen any other log book?
DK: I have seen some, yeah quite a few.
RT: They are all pretty similar.
DK: Yeah they are more or less the same yeah, so how do you look back on that period now?
RT: A waste of my youth and pretty boring, I was stationed at Ely, there wasn't much at Ely. It wasn't even far from home that wasn't.
DK: Did you used to pop back home when you could?
RT: Mmmm.
DK: Yeah because it down the road, that was something.
RT: Well there wouldn’t be the transport for it but I got home somehow, if you had a motorbike you'd be home in an hour or so.
DK: You had a motorbike then did you?
RT: I didnt no, there wasn't any petrol for one thing.
DK: That's true, ok well thanks you very much for that I will stop this now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dick Tinsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-04
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATinsleyR150604
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:29:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dick was from a farming background and joined the Royal Air Force in 1944. After going to Bedford, he was sent to Lord’s cricket ground. Those passing as a pilot went to a flying school near Coventry to be assessed for pilot training on a Tiger Moth. Canada followed, where Dick went to a personnel reception centre and then an airfield in Regina. He did a course on a Cornell and then went to a senior flying training corps on a Crane.
After returning to England, Dick did a flying course at RAF Burnaston. In February 1945 he went to 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Langar with Lancasters. He helped to put out an engine fire on a training trip over Wales. Dick then joined 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford. He recalls a daylight operation to an oil refinery in the Ruhr. A target was also missed in Heligoland. There were two operations to Kiel. He was involved in Operation Manna to The Hague. Dick was sent to RAF Leicester East after the war had ended and flew C-47. He was sent to Cairo. Dick left the RAF in Spring 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Coventry
England--Derbyshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Nottinghamshire
Canada
Saskatchewan
Saskatchewan--Regina
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Great Britain
Netherlands--Hague
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1947
115 Squadron
1668 HCU
bombing
C-47
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Burnaston
RAF Langar
RAF Leicester East
RAF Witchford
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/PAlgarH1701.1.jpg
fc6613bb2e0382203476e2c25fd2b6dd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/AAlgarH170520.1.mp3
971b79860cc48492ea1f6c034d96276b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Algar, Harry
Harold Keith Mael Algar
H K M Algar
Description
An account of the resource
Thirteen items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Algar (1924 - 2022, 1801102 Royal Air Force) and his log books and documents.
He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Greg Algar and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Algar, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: [unclear] So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harry Algar at the Dambuster’s Inn on the 20th of May, is it the 20th today?
HA: [unclear] we’ve been discussing that this morning, what the date is [laughs]
US: I think it is, yes.
DK: Ok, [unclear], I can always amend it later. If I keep looking down at this, I’m just making sure that it’s still working cause I sometimes get beaten by the technology and the battery runs out or something
HA: Yeah
DK: So if I look down that’s all I’m doing. So, just leave that there. So, what I wanted to ask you Harry was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HA: Well, at that time I was working in London right next to London Bridge, working for Hay’s Wharf and I used to go up there every day, because in those days I went there on Saturdays as well as the other days of the week and I was what they called an office boy in those days, I don’t suppose they have them these days, but I worked in the engineer’s department of Hay’s Wharf [unclear] on the river front right from London Bridge down to Tower Bridge and part of my job was to walk from there to there and put in the time cards for the various [unclear] cranes and all the equipment they had on the wharf and then we’d take them out at the end of the week, work out their wages, that was my job then
DK: Right, so, what made you then want to join the Air Force, is there anything in particular?
HA: Well, yeah, in those days, it’s any different now but I did realise that there was gonna be trouble with Germany again and so I thought if I joined the RAF now at least I’m in the Air Force, not in the navy or the army
DK: So, the navy and army didn’t appeal to you?
HA: Not really, no, and so I joined the, what was it called? The
DK: ATC
HA: ATC, yes, I was one of the first to join the ATC, I joined the Woolwich Squadron, cause I lived comparatively near to Woolwich
DK: So how old would you have been about then?
HA: Sixteen,
DK: Sixteen
HA: Sixteen, seventeen
DK: Yeah
HA: Yes, I actually joined the Air Force when I was seventeen and I got called up when I was eighteen
DK: Yeah, right. So what did you feel when you were called up into the Air Force, what were you?
HA: I was expecting it, you know, it’s no great surprise
DK: No. And what were you hoping to do once you joined?
HA: Well, when I was in the ATC, I took the [unclear] leave for navigators, pilots and bomb aimers and that was sufficient actually to get me into aircrew
DK: Right. So you were tested then to see what your best sort of role
HA: Yes, well, when I actually joined the RAF the first thing I did was to go to the Elementary Flying Training School on, what the heck they called them?
DK: Is it the biplanes, the Tiger Moths?
HA: Yeah, Tiger Moths, on Tiger Moths, yeah. So, I was on Tiger Moths but I wasn’t specially able to, I didn’t progress quickly enough and so I came out of that particular scheme and got sent to Canada to do an air bomber scheme.
DK: So, when you were trying to fly the Tiger Moths, did they tell you quite early on, no, this isn’t
HA: I did about ten or twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths and after that they said, we think you’re more likely to kill us than kill Germans [laughs] so I was taken off the scheme.
DK: So, you then went off to Canada.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
HA: Well yes, at the time, Roosevelt was in charge of the scheme and Churchill was going out to Canada to meet him and to discuss the state of the war and so Churchill was on the Queen Mary and I was on the Queen Mary as well.
DK: Oh right, Churchill was on the ship at the same time.
HA: Yes.
DK: Oh, right.
HA: Cause in those days, but most people don’t realise it that you couldn’t fly to Canada, not directly, you could only go by in small hops you know, so he went on the Queen Mary and I went on the Queen Mary
DK: Did you see him?
HA: Yes, I was outside his suite supposed to be guarding him, unfortunately I was rather sick [laughs] I could only go out and say [unclear]
DK: Were you a bit seasick then?
HA: Oh yes.
DK: So you were supposed to be actually guarding Churchill.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Did he speak to you?
HA: No, I never saw him.
DK: You never saw him, oh, right.
HA: No. And of course when we went because we had him on board we had a squadron of Spitfires with us going down the Irish Sea and then we got down to the Irish, through the Irish Sea into the Channel, then it would be full steam ahead and then go down south into the South Pacific, South Atlantic so that you would avoid the submarines and then come up the coast of
DK: So, you weren’t actually in a convoy then, you [unclear]
HA: No, just a single ship
DK: Just the Queen Mary
HA: Yeah. It could outrun submarines
DK: Alright, so [unclear]
HA: And of course the submarine could, if it was very lucky, happen to be [unclear] our position to torpedo it but [unclear]
DK: Yeah, so are going at quite a speed then on the
HA: Yes, it could do thirty knots, twenty eight to thirty knots something like that but they were quite a quick [unclear] away but because of the length of the trip going down into the South Atlantic it took us best part of a week, I think
DK: And whereabouts in Canada did you dock, you remember?
HA: Well, we docked at New York
DK: Alright.
HA: We docked at New York and
DK: Was this, would this have been the first time you’d been over to another country in overseas?
HA: No, in, before I left school, I went on a school trip to Holland and Belgium and France
DK: Alright. Obviously the first time to America then
HA: First time to America, yeah, and then from New York we went up to Moncton in Canada which was via Boston and Providence and then we waited in Halifax until there was this place in a school for me to go to and then I was sent to Picton in
DK: In Picton
HA: Picton, yeah, in Ontario and did a bomb aimers course there and then after that I did a short navigation course
DK: So, what did the bomb aiming course involve then? What did you have to do?
HA: Well, it involved a whole of the theory of bombing, also all the things to do with the bombs and the components, so that you knew exactly what the bombs would do and what sort of fusing they had on them and pyrotechnics as well, so a lot of it was more or less, more armament than anything else and I’d be responsible for the bombload on the, on whatever aircraft I was flying at the time
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft were training there?
HA: Yeah, yeah, Ansons
DK: Ansons, yeah
HA: And then we had Blenheim IVs,
DK: Right.
HA: Blenheim IVs we used as towing targets and also we were going to the turret of another one and fire at a drove that
DK: [unclear] being towed, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did
HA: They were towed by Lysanders
DK: Lysanders. So, what did you think of Canada then, was it?
HA: Oh, it was fine, I mean, it was [unclear] really I suppose because when we went there it was still more or less summertime I think, I can’t quite remember when I went but
Dk: [unclear] people were training in winter [unclear] it was very cold
HA: Well we, when I’d finished training I went back to Halifax to wait for a boat, to take a ship to bring me back to England and that was in the winter and we had several feet of snow and I took the opportunity to go to Montreal and Quebec and also I took a couple of trips down to New York because we had a fair amount of time spare you know, it wasn’t something you [unclear] [mimics a bombing sound] that’s how you’re going to work, it was done over a period of time cause you never knew exactly when you were going anywhere
DK: No. So, what did the training actually involve? What are you also dropping dummy bombs as well or?
HA: Yes, yes, that’s in
DK: Is in one of the logbooks
HA: One of them, yeah, first of them
DK: That one, that’s, is that the first one?
HA: Right at the beginning
DK: So, I’ll read this out just for the benefit of the recording here, so you were with 31 Bombing and Gunnery School
HA: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, so, Picton
DK: Picton, Ontario, Canada,
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you’re going, you’re flying on Lysanders, no, you’re not flying, sorry, you’re flying on Ansons
HA: Yeah. Doing the bombing
DK: Yeah, flying on Ansons and the [unclear] which is the Blenheim.
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got example here is six bombs, there’s quite a number of flights on the Ansons then
HA: Yeah
DK: And the [unclear], yeah, and the Anson again
HA: And I went to the navigation school
DK: Alright, that’s
HA: At Mount, Mount Hope, Mount Hope is still in use in Canada as a major
DK: Funny enough I’m going there next month
HA: Oh yeah?
DK: Hamilton and Mount Hope, so this is, so then you went onto number 33 ANS
HA: Yes
DK: So that’s the Air Navigation
HA: Air Navigation
DK: Air Navigation School, yeah. And that was at Mount Hope,
HA: Yeah
DK: Hamilton, Ontario.
HA: Yeah
DK: So then you’re back on Ansons again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was purely navigation training
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got where you had to fly from and to then
HA: Yeah, various cross-country trips
DK: Yeah. And then, so you’ve come back to the UK then
Ha: Yeah, then we went to Penrhos
DK: Penrhos, so that was number 9 AFU
HA: Yes, Advanced Flying School
DK: Number 9 Advanced Flying School
HA: And that was really to get you into, you know, into with the sort of weather that you would have in England which was obviously quite different to Canada, so that was an introduction to English weather
DK: So that was all air bombing training again
HA: Yeah
DK: Rather than navigation and that’s all on Ansons. What did you think of the Anson as an aircraft?
HA: [laughs] Well of course it was, well the first Anson I flew in you didn’t, you, to get the undercarriage up you had to
DK: Wind it up
HA: Wind it up [laughs], so you had the pilot sitting there, I was sitting here and I’d be winding up the undercarriage [laughs]
DK: So, how many of you would go on, roughly on one of these training? Was it you and a couple of other
HA: Yeah, just, yeah, yeah.
DK: So you also used the gun turret as well.
HA: Yes, yeah
DK: So you’re trained in air bombing, gunnery and navigation
HA: Yes
DK: Yeah. [unclear] the training there so then you’ve gone to number 29 Operational Training Unit at Bruntingthorpe
HA: Yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: That’s 29 OTU Bruntingthorpe
HA: Bruntingthorpe
DK: There you’re on the Wellingtons
HA: Yeah, this was crewing up with the idea of eventually going onto a squadron.
DK: So, how did you meet your crew then, was it at the OTU?
HA: Yeah, yeah. All that happened was that they would have enough people from the various trades to make up about eight or ten crews, something like that and you’d all be put into one room and told to mingle and sort yourself out in your crews.
DK: And through that you found your pilot and
HA: Yeah
DK: Navigator. How did you think that worked, cause it’s a bit unusual. Because normally
HA: It worked very well actually because I never knew anybody who was dissatisfied with the people that I picked up to fly with.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual really, it’s not normally how the military worked
HA: Yes
DK: You’re [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah.
DK: But you think that worked well then
HA: It did, yeah, I was crewed up with, where I found my pilot, he was an Australian, that’s how I got on the Australian squadron
DK: Can you remember his name?
HA: Yes, Hyland, Frank Hyland, H-Y-L-A-N-D
DK: Frank Hyland.
HA: Yeah. His name’s in there
DK: Yes, his name’s in there, yes, so he’s Flight Sergeant Hyland
HA: Yeah
DK: H-Y-L-A-N-D
HA: Yeah. Then later on when we were going, I’m not sure whether it was when we were there but he got commissioned
DK: Right, ok.
HA: And we weren’t very keen on that because in those days the, well, do you know the, if you were commissioned, you were a bit [unclear] from the people who weren’t commissioned and it tend to break up the crew so we weren’t keen on that
DK: Would he have been the only officer on the crew then?
HA: Yeah, he was
DK: So, once he was commissioned then, did that mean you didn’t socialise at all?
HA: That’s right. Well, that’s not true because we did, it was against the law, but you know, you’re not supposed to socialise with your lower ranks but we used to meet up in pubs, we already did you know, because at that time was when things were beginning to break down when it came to the, you know, the iron fist in the services, you know, became easier to meet with
DK: But on the station itself you’d be living separate
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: You’d be in the officer’s mess
HA: That’s it, that was why we didn’t like very much, I mean you couldn’t talk as much as you would like to about what you’d done or what you expected to do
DK: Which I would imagine would’ve been good for you, your job if you got to know each other better
HA: Well, it is, yes, it is, yes
DK: So, at 29 OTU then you were flying Wellingtons?
HA: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington?
HA: They were marvellous aircraft really, they were geodetic construction which means they were as you probably know, teaching the conversion [laughs] but you know it’s like [unclear] with the canvas outside but they were remarkably strong and no, I thought they were great aircraft
DK: Right, so, so after 29 OTU then, gone on
HA: Then we started getting onto the Heavies
DK: Right, so
HA: And you didn’t go onto Lancasters straight away because all the Lancasters at that time were being used by frontline squadrons
DK: Alright. Ok, so then, just read your logbook again, you went to 1660
HA: Heavy Conversion Unit
DK: Heavy Conversion Unit and that was
HA: That was on Stirlings
DK: Right, so that’s at Swinderby
HA: Yeah
DK: [unclear] 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit, Swinderby and you’re flying Stirlings
HA: Stirlings, yeah
DK: What did you think of the Stirling?
HA: Not a lot [laughs], they were heavy, cumbersome things and they were all like, I think they got their design and that from people who worked on ships
DK: Right.
HA: I mean they were, they came from Ireland, Belfast and they’d been more used to work on ships than on aircraft
DK: And what was it like as an air bomber then? Because you’re at the front, are they quite high up?
HA: Oh yes,
DK: [unclear]
HA: Oh well, you don’t sit on the front for take-off
DK: Right, ok
HA: You come back and then you go down the front when you’re airborne
DK: I noticed you’re not having your coffee. [unclear]
US: [unclear] forgot it. He hasn’t brought it, has he?
DK: Right, ok, so, you’re
HA: I just done
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit
HA: That’s right, yes. And now next thing is the Lanc Finishing School which means that you go on to Lancasters and get tuned up on what’s happening before you go on the squadron.
DK: So that was, just for the benefit of the recording, making sure it’s working, is number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston
HA: Mhm.
DK: So you, so the idea is then you’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit to then [unclear]
HA: To the aircraft you’re gonna fly on Bomber Command. And you know, you get used to it before you actually get sent to a squadron cause obviously when you get to the squadron you’re expected to be [unclear] with what’s going on
Dk: Alright. So what did you think of the Lancaster then when you?
HA: A marvellous aircraft [unclear], very strong and quite fast and a good altitude, the defence wasn’t so hot, it was on any aircraft
DK: No. You say the defence, was that a problem with the machine guns or?
HA: Well, they were too light, you know, they were 303s and people were firing at you with rockets and whatever, well not rockets but heavier, heavier
DK: Calibres
HA: Calibre
DK: Yeah. So, as the air bomber then, on Lancaster, was not too short [unclear], were you responsible for both dropping the bombs and the front gun turret?
HA: Yeah, I was responsible for all the armament really on the aircraft and we would go up before a raid and we used to harmonise the guns on the turrets, they would be harmonised the four guns in the rear turret, harmonised at about four hundred yards, in other when I say harmonised all four came to
DK: Came together
HA: Yeah, at that point and in the front you just had two guns and you harmonise those for probably about a hundred yards something like that
DK: And also, so did you have any other roles as the air bomber besides that, so you’re looking after the guns, dropping the bombs and
HA: Well, as soon as you went out to the aircraft, I was in charge of the bombs and so I would have to go round and inspect all the bombs and remove every safety devices that weren’t used once we were airborne so the rest of the armament would be made live once you got airborne and once the aircraft got to target and started to drop the bombs as the bombs came out of their holding and the last safety devices would be removed and the bomb would be live
DK: So how could you remove the last safety device when you’re in the air?
HA: Well, they would [unclear] electrically
DK: Ah, right
HA: You had the, how can I put it? You had something that was locked in and when you switched on the electrics the [unclear] would work and clamp onto that thing and hold it in position till the bomb had gone
DK: Right, and you could control that from
HA: Yeah
DK: Something in the, the bomb aimers area
HA: Yeah
DK: So you had a control panel who did that
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: Alright.
HA: And you could, if you got into trouble, you could drop all the bombs at once [unclear] panel showed that you could drop a salvo of bombs all at once so if you put it on that you could get rid of the whole immediately so if you were in trouble, you could lighten the aircraft by several thousand pounds you know
DK: Very quickly
HA: Yeah [phone rings]
DK: Ok. So, after the Lancaster Finishing School then, you’ve gone to number 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: Based at Waddington
HA: Yeah
DK: So we [unclear] that for the benefit of that and that was in first, so, November 1944 [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: What did you think of Waddington when you got there?
HA: Well, we were very lucky really cause it’s a pre-war aerodrome with buildings, got accommodation as I said in my book there, some people were in Nissen huts you know in winter it was terribly cold and in summer they were really hot so they were quite uncomfortable, but we had permanent buildings to live in, we had a decent mess, we were really lucky
DK: And you mentioned you went to this particular squadron because your pilot was Australian?
HA: Yeah, we had an Australian wireless operator as well
DK: Right
HA: So we had two Australians on our, on our crew
DK: Can you still name the crew?
HA: Yes, Frank Hyland was the captain and the skipper
DK: Yeah
HA: I was the bomb aimer
DK: Yeah
HA: Navigator was Keith, what was his name?
DK: Listed in here?
HA: Yes, it is. Cause I was his best man
DK: Right.
US: [unclear]
DK: Frank Hyland, wasn’t that?
HA: Frank Hyland, yeah
DK: So, that’s your crew there
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you got Bob Stewart
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric
US: No.
HA: No, Eric is the only one that I, we couldn’t keep in contact with
DK: Alright
HA: After the war he just sort of disappeared and I found unfortunately, I’ve also forgotten his name as well
DK: Yeah, right. And then Ken Richardson?
HA: Yeah. He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner. Keith Jenkins?
HA: Yeah, he was the navigator.
DK: Navigator.
HA: Yeah
DK: Frank Hyland
HA: He was the pilot
DK: Pilot. And then you got Max ?
HA: Yeah [unclear] I don’t remember his name, he was the other Aussie.
DK: So, he was the wireless operator [unclear]
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Yeah
HA: He was a great sportsman actually, he played for Australia after the war, rugby
DK: Alright. So I’ll, just for the benefit of the recording again, I’ll read this out again, so, from left to right you got, [unclear], Bob Stewart, he was the
HA: He was engineer
DK: Flight engineer
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric somebody, who was
HA: The mid upper gunner
DK: Mid upper gunner, Ken Richardson
HA: He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner, Keith Jenkins,
HA: He was the navigator
DK: Navigator. Frank Hyland, pilot
HA: Was the pilot
DK: And the Max somebody
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Wireless operator and he was the Australian
HA: Yeah
DK: So, was 463 a good squadron, do you think?
HA: Yes, well, the thing was that you were only on the squadron for about six months really, in general you know, you don’t, you’re not gonna be on it for years and at that time you don’t get to know people all that well but because you’re, not really with the other squadron, the other crews, your, it’s your crew you were interested in
DK: Yes, yeah. So, you didn’t mix too much?
HA: Not all that much, no, we, as a crew we always stuck together and when went out socializing we always stuck together, we all had bikes you know, we just cycled down the pub, the Horse and Jockey at
US: Coningsby?
HA: No, The Horse and Jockey at, quite close to Waddington, Bracebridge Heath
DK: Bracebridge Heath. Yeah.
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it still there?
HA: Yeah
DK: Oh, right, I’ll have to go along to it at some point
HA: Yeah [laughs]
DK: See if they remember you [laughs]. So, looking at your logbook again then you got your first operation to Heilbronn?
HA: Heilbronn, yes
DK: Heilbronn, just for the benefit of the recording, H-E-I-L-B-R-O-N-N
HA: Yeah
DK: So, your bombs then are thirteen thousand pounds
HA: Yeah
DK: So, one
HA: One four thousand pounder
DK: Six
HA: Six one thousand pounders
DK: And six five hundred pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: So how did you feel after you’re done, after all this training and done your first operation?
HA: Oh, relieved I suppose, I managed to do one without getting shot down [laughs]. I mean the thing is lots of people joined the Air Force, they never managed to do very much because they got shot down on the first trip, you know, but to survive one tour [unclear] was very fortunate but Dinah’s father, he also was a navigator
DK: Alright.
HA: And he did eighty-three operations, oh, eighty-eight operations, he got, he was ordered a DFC and bar.
DK: What was his name?
US: Mayson
DK: Mayson, alright.
HA: M-A-Y-S-O-N.
DK: M-A-Y-S-O-N, I’ll make a note of that. Alright, so and he flew how many operations?
HA: Eighty-eight, I think it was.
US: I think it’s eighty-six, for all he said.
HA: Oh yeah, it’ll be eighty-six. Yeah, eighty-six.
DK: Can you recall which squadron he was in?
HA: Yes, [unclear] somewhere
US: I am not as old as Harry, so
HA: Not many are [laughs]
US: During the war, we stayed at home, he went and I didn’t really know an awful lot about it
HA: So, he was on Pathfinders as well, he flew on Lancasters, he flew on Mosquitoes,
DK: And so he was a pilot or?
HA: No, a navigator
DK: Navigator, sorry, navigator, yeah
HA: Actually I think he had the same sort of introduction to the RAF as I did, I think he used to wear an O badge, observer, observer was the same sort of thing as bomb and navigation which I did so I think we both did the same sort of course initially and then he went back onto navigation before I did
DK: Alright, and did eighty-three ops
HA: Yes, eighty-three ops. I think he did about thirty on Berlin
DK: Wow!
HA: [laughs]
DK: Ok, just for the benefit of the tape again, just going back to your logbook, so your second operation then, 6th of
HA: Giessen
DK: February 1944 to Giessen
HA: Yeah
DK: And there you got elven thousand pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was twelve one thousand pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: An interesting one next so, the 8th of December, operations to the Urft Dam
HA: Yes
DK: U-R-F-T Dam
HA: Well, that’s in green, it’s daylight
DK: Daylight
HA: But it was clouded over, we didn’t
DK: Cause you got, it says here, eight thousand five hundred pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was because it was
HA: Weather,
DK: Weather
HA: Couldn’t see the target
DK: No. Would that be normal then, if you couldn’t see the target you’d bring the bombs back?
HA: I don’t know if it would be normal, but we probably got recalled and it was probably said in the brief [unclear] did not jettison or something like that
DK: Oh, ok. And what was it like flying at night compared to day? Did you prefer one to the other?
HA: Oh yes, night flying was always a bit hairy because we went, you take off say from Waddington and it’s probably dark when you take off, you may well have seen the odd aircraft crash you know and you knew that it could be a bit dodgy taking off at night time with all that load of armament on board
DK: Yeah, and the petrol as well
HA: Yeah. Yeah
DK: Ok, so just going through this again then so you had another operation recalled here, so that’s the 10th of December 1944, operation recalled and then,
HA: Where was that to?
DK: It doesn’t actually, it just says, operation recalled
HA: How many hours did it do?
DK: Two hours forty-five
HA: They got started
DK: And then on the 11th of December 1944 it’s the Urft Dam again
HA: Yeah
DK: U-R-F-T,
HA: Again
DK: Ten thousand pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Again [unclear]
DK: Ten tenth cloud. Ah, and then 18th of December 1944, operations to Gdynia. That was
DK: It’s in Poland, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah, bombing the German fleet which had taken position in Gdynia and we’re bombing them
DF: And that says thirteen thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: And it does actually say in pencil here, Poland bombing German fleet
HA: Yes, right.
DF: And it says landing FIDO
HA: Oh yeah, FIDO, that was, yeah, when we came back it was
DG: Fog
HA: Fog everywhere and we didn’t really know where we were too well and we were told to fly on dead reckoning and wondering whether we would be able to find anywhere to land because you couldn’t get in contact with people without the aerodromes like you could today, there was no VHF or UHF, it was HF, HF was short range communication and so, you know, it was sometimes very difficult to get in touch with people that could help you, so we were just flying along wondering what was going to happen whether we’d have to bail out or [unclear] because we couldn’t find anywhere to land when in the distance we saw a glow in the sky and we flew towards it and then when we got there we realized it was FIDO which is a method of dispersing the fog and we were able to get down and land
DK: That was petrol set like each side of the runway
HA: Yes, petrol, clean burning petrol which dispersed the fog
DK: I bet that was an impressive sight
HA: Oh, it was
DK: [unclear] [laughs]
HA: This was at Carnaby
DK: Carnaby, right, ok.
HA: And the
DK: Was it a bit of a relief to see that then?
HA: Oh, it was, yeah, and there were lots of other aircraft already managed to land on it, the whole aerodrome was covered in aircraft that had managed to get in
DK: So then, next operation then, 12th of December 1944, operations to Politz
HA: Politz, that’s an oil refinery, a big oil refinery
DK: And that was twenty thousand two hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: So, one four thousand pounds and six one thousand pound bombs. So, then we’re into 1945 here, so 13th, I think that’s just 13th of January ‘45
HA: Yeah
DK: So, Politz again
HA: Yeah
DK: One four thousand pound bomb and fourteen five hundred pounds of bombs. And then 14th of January 1945, Wurzburg
HA: There’s an oil refinery
DK: Oil refinery again and then 1st of February ’45, Siegen
HA: Siegen, yeah
DK: S-I-E-G-E-N
HA: I don’t remember much about that
DK: And then 2nd of February ’45 operations to Karlsruhe
HA: Where? Karlsruhe? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: And then 13th of February 1945 operations to Dresden.
HA: Yeah
DK: So that was, it says here supporters,
HA: It means that we went around twice
DK: Right
HA: Because what it means is that you go in, drop your bombs and then to give support to those who were still coming in after you go round again, so that [unclear] far ahead [laughs]
DK: Alright. So that’s saying thirteen thousand seven hundred bombs, one four thousand pounder and elven, can’t quite read what that says,
HA: I’ll have a look
DK: Yeah. Is that incendiaries?
HA: Eleven cans, be eleven cans of incendiaries
DK: Eleven cans of incendiaries, right. Do you remember much about the Dresden raid?
HA: Well, yes, I suppose, I remember more than the rest because I suppose I probably brought it to mind because people keep talking about it [laughs]. As far as I was concerned, Dresden was just another town. I mean, I left school when I was fourteen, so I wasn’t all that well educated and Dresden, you know, was just another town
DK: Yeah, just another operation
HA: Yeah, another operation. I remember it because it did burn, I mean without a doubt it was a hell of a burn but
DK: So then 3rd of March 1945 operations to the Dortmund-Ems Canal
HA: Yeah
DK: So then, 5th of March ’45, operations to Bohlen
HA: Bohlen?
DK: B-O-H-L-E-N.
HA: Bohlen.
DK: Bohlen. And then 7th of March Harburg, 12th of March Dortmund, 14th of March Lutzkendorf
HA: Lutzkendorf, that’s another oil refinery
DK: And then it’s got, I notice you landed back at Alconbury
HA: Oh yes, yes
DK: Which was
HA: Oh, is an American base again was being in the fog or something like that we were being diverted there. I remember that because we were eating in the, I remember the soup in there was full of pepper [laughs] couldn’t possibly eat it and I said to this chap, why did you put that much pepper in this? He said, because I like it [laughs].
DK: Making taste, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: And then 20th of March ’45 Bohlen again, B-O-H-L-E-N. Then 22nd of March Bremen and then 27th of March Farge, F-A-R-G-E.
HA: Farge
DK: Farge, F-A-R-G-E. The war’s ended, are we? So, 4th of April Nordhausen.
HA: Nordhausen.
DK: Yes, 7th of
HA: Nordhausen was where they were firing the rockets from on London
DK: Oh, right. Would you, would you tell, can you recall if you were actually told about that, at the briefing
HA: Oh yes.
DK: What the target was?
HA: Oh yes. We were told what we were looking for, because these rockets that they were firing at London, they were coming out of woods and that sort of thing so they were extremely difficult to find, what we were looking for but they weren’t anywhere else you know and London was really getting a pasting with bombs and rockets
DK: The V2s
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HA: Yeah.
DK: So, 7th of April, the operation seems to be recalled and then I can’t quite, it’s something 8th of April I think it is, operations to Lutzkendorf again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s a supporters as well
HA: Yeah
DK: So would that mean you’ve gone round
HA: Yeah
DK: Twice again
HA: Yeah
DK: Then there was fifteen thousand two hundred and fifty pounds bombs, one four thousand pounder and fourteen five hundred pounds. And then 23rd of April Flensburg, and it says no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah, well, the war was very nearly closed then, very near to close and I think that was probably the last, one of the last targets that were nominated for
DK: And then I see the next few flights then was Operation Exodus
HA: Yeah, that was
DK: After that
HA: Yeah, that was picking up prisoners of war, British prisoners of war and bringing them back to England.
DK: That must have been quite [unclear]
HA: Oh yes, yeah
DK: Yeah. What sort of shape were the POWs in?
HA: Oh, very poor shape, yeah. And then of course, I didn’t actually do any, but they were also dropping food to Holland at that time.
DK: So, you didn’t do any Operation Manna flights?
HA: No, no.
DK: And then you’ve got Cook’s Tour.
HA: Well, that was just a sort of swan around Germany to see what damage [unclear] you caused [laughs].
DK: And presumably that would’ve been the first time you’d seen the damage then, was that
HA: Well, you could see it in daylight, if you did the odd daylight trip, as we did, you would see [unclear]
DK: And did the Cook’s Tour event involve taking the people on the aircraft?
HA: Yeah
DK: The ground staff
HA: Yeah, yeah
DK: So you had a circular flight there
HA: Yeah
DK: Munster, Dusseldorf, Essen, Cologne, Munich, Glad, sorry, Monchen Gladbach, then back to base. So the war has come to an end then
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you do at that point then?
HA: I went to India
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HA: In India they were going to demilitarize the Air Force there and most of the aircrew were [unclear] obviously they were the war [unclear] at a close but on the other hand there was, the fight was still going on with the Japanese so to some extent they wanted to have aircrew out in the Far East to take over bombing of Japan if
DK: Right
HA: If it became necessary. And we went to India with that intention but in fact what we did was to demilitarize the Air Force and we had to, the way we did it was to get the [unclear] in groups and take their uniforms and that sort of thing from them, pay them and organize transport for them to get back to home
DK: Alright. So it’s quite a different
HA: Oh, quite different altogether, yeah
DF: So, you weren’t considered to be flying out operations against Japan then?
HA: No
DF: No
HA: No. The only aircraft that we had that could possibly have done that was a Lincoln at that time
DF: Right
HA: But the Lincoln hasn’t actually been put on the squadrons at the end of the war, they never flew during the war on operations in England or in Europe rather.
DF: So, the war is ended, so it’s 1948 now and you’re
HA: I’m back from India
DF: India and then you’re going to number 2 ANS
HA: Yeah
DF: At Middleton Ste George. Was it, did you make a decision then to stay in the Air Force?
HA: Oh yes, yes, I applied to join before, I forget what years it was but eventually I was signed on till I was fifty-five. I didn’t serve until I was fifty-five because there was a Labor government in and they decided that they wanted to reduce the number of people into services and so there was a redundancy scheme offered and because we had three boys, we didn’t really want the family split up which would’ve been if I had carried on the Air Force, they’d had to go to school, [unclear] live in the school somewhere and I’d have to [unclear] somewhere
DK: And can you remember what year it was you left then?
HA: Yeah, I left in, what year was that?
DF: [unclear], ’49, ‘53,
HA: What year I left the Air Force? Oh, ‘69.
DK: ’69, right, yeah.
HA: Yeah, ’69.
DK: So, you’ve now trained as a navigator then
HA: Yeah, at Middleton St George
DK: Yeah. Let’s go through this, so, number 201 AFS
HA: And I was back then on Lancasters
DK: And Wellingtons by the looks of it
HA: Yeah was, yeah that was to crew up again
DK: Yeah
HA: Cause I’d been on a different crew
DK: And then 1949 Lancasters again with 149 Squadron
HA: Yeah
DK: At Mildenhall. And by this time, you are a fully-fledged navigator
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So these, some of the last Lancasters built, aren’t they?
HA: [unclear] what?
DK: Some of the Lancaster here, they’d be quite old by this time
HA: Oh yes, they would, yeah
DK: [unclear] crew here now, 1949 so Lancasters
HA: And
DK: So you’re with 149 Squadron for quite a while then.
HA: Yeah
DK: ’49. Then to the Central Gunnery School
HA: Yeah
DK: Lancasters again
HA: That was to get a qualification as an instructor on [unclear]
DK: So 1950 then you’re now on the Avro Lincoln
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you think of the Lincoln compared to the Lancaster, was it?
HA: It was bigger, better armed, cannons on the front, machine guns, but I don’t think, they were just a bigger version, that’s all [unclear] Lancaster I suppose
DK: So, then it was number 44 Rhodesia squadron at Whitten
HA: Yeah
DK: That’s Lincolns again
HA: Yeah [unclear]
DK: And then the 149 Squadron, the Washington conversion unit
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s August 1950
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s at Marham
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did you think of the Washington then?
HA: Oh, they were marvelous really cause they were, you fly unpressurised in them and they had a tube which ran from the front down to the back and you could actually bomb using radar equipment that was at the rear and you could actually guide the aircraft from the back
DK: Alright
HA: Using the radar target that you could see
DK: And that controlled the aircraft
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it true that B-29s had ashtrays?
HA: We didn’t [laughs]
DK: The Americans put ashtrays in the [unclear]
HA: I remember, we did use to smoke in there
DK: They had ashtrays. Were you impressed by the Washington then?
HA: Yes, yes, it was a big aircraft and carried a big load
DK: So, 149 Squadron again with Washingtons, right into 1951, so it’s mostly all training then
HA: Yeah, you could do the sort of flight you could do in a B-29 would last about sixteen hours
DK: Alright.
HA: When, there’s one in there, I think, sixteen hours we went there onto Africa and back non-stop
DK: You flew on the Washingtons for quite some time, didn’t you?
HA: Yeah.
DK: And this was all from the UK
HA: Yeah
DK: And then I see, so it’s 203 Squadron Coastal Command, then 236 OCU at Kinloss on the Neptunes
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what was the Neptunes like?
HA: It was good aircraft too, it was only two engines but it had [unclear] endurance, it did one time hold the record for endurance flying, the aircraft was called the reluctant turtle [laughs]
DK: That’s up to 1954 then when you
HA: Ah yes, I got commissioned in ‘54
DK: Ok, that’s, just one final question, just looking back at your time specifically with RAF Bomber Command in the war, how do you look back on that period now?
HA: I don’t think it ever, I mean, never, I don’t know, it never bothered me, you know, I read of some people getting bothered [unclear] about what you did and that sort of thing, it never bothered me, I mean, I was, I went through the Blitz in London, I was in the, we used to do fire watching and I remember London burning and when I was at, as a boy, you know, doing this office job as it were, we used to do at least one night a week fire watching and I can remember bomb was falling and terrific fires and we were putting these fires out, you know, and I remember one particular incident where sticker bombs fell into the water about a hundred yards away from us I think, but because they fell in the water there was no damage was done, you know, we didn’t get hurt but I mean, I had to [unclear] quite a lot from the Germans so I didn’t feel I was doing anything I shouldn’t do as far as I was concerned, I was defending my life and the life of my family.
DK: Ok, that’s great, we’ll stop there
HA: Ok.
DK: You’re absolutely marvelous. No, thank you very much for your time. It’s been wonderful, I think we covered everything.
HA: Ok [laughs].
DK: Just for the benefit, thanks very much for that.
HA: Do you
DK: There’s a notice here in the book. I thought you left the service at the time of the Neptunes but you went on, did you go onto the Shackletons after that?
HA: Yes.
DK: So you went to Guyana?
HA: Went to Guyana, yeah.
DK: And that’s cause it burnt down.
HA: Sorry?
DK: You said it was burnt down.
HA: Well the [unclear] Georgetown in Guyana was set on fire, yeah but the government decided, the British government decided they’d have to send troops out there
DK: Alright
HA: And so we carried the troops out there that meant these chaps we were taken out, had a very horrible journey because they had been taken from Ireland where we were based to [unclear], [unclear] down to Bermuda, Bermuda then out to Jamaica
DK: Right
HA: And then Jamaica to Guyana, all they had was a hard floor to lie on
DK: And that was on the Shackletons
HA: Yeah, you know, they didn’t have anything decent to lie on
DK: So what was the Shackletons like as aircraft [unclear]
HA: Well, they were really good aircraft, they did the job
DK: Yeah
HA: But I mean this was, they weren’t made for that sort of thing
DK: Yeah
HA: Carrying troops
DK: So, what was your normal role in Shackletons then?
HA: Again, I was first navigator on most of these trips.
DK: Alright. And that’s through the Cold War, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: You’re keeping an eye on the Russians.
HA: That’s right, yeah. And our sort of flying was, flying training was locating submarines and practice bombing them, that sort of thing
DK: Oh, right. Did you actually identify Russian submarines?
HA: Oh yes. Yes, you’d pick up a contact on radar and then you’d home into the contact and if you were lucky you’d probably find the submarine at the end, probably just diving, you know, realisng that it’d been found
DK: And would you make a dummy attack on it?
HA: Yeah
DK: Trying to go down
HA: There’s one trip we did in southern UK we came across about, well, I think there must have been about twenty Russian ships, a whole fleet in the Atlantic
DK: They didn’t ever fire on you then, did they?
HA: No, but they always turned their guns on us
DK: Alright.
HA: They were always pointing their guns at us.
DK: And you could see that [unclear]
HA: Yeah. We would never actually overfly them knowingly, just, we would just [unclear] round them
DK: So you went out to Rhodesia, was it Rhodesia then, wasn’t it?
HA: Yeah, we went down to South Africa
DK: Yeah
HA: And then I did quite a lot of flying from the Middle East when the [unclear] on
DK: Oman
HA: No, I’m sorry, my mind isn’t quite as quick as it should be. Cyprus
DK: Cyprus, yes, yeah.
HA: And then, there was some other in, where was that? Anyway, if you, it’s in that book
DK: Yes, it mentioned Oman here, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And then later the government came along and [unclear] the redundancy
HA: Yeah, I joined Barclay’s bank then [laughs]
DK: So, you did almost twenty-seven years in the Royal Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: And then ten years in Barclay’s?
HA: Twenty years
DK: Twenty years in Barclay’s. Oh right, ok. Good bank Barclay’s. [unclear] Ok, that’s great, I’ll [unclear], but thanks again for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Algar
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlgarH170520, PAlgarH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:55:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Algar worked as an office boy at Hay’s Wharf in London before the war. He entered the Air Training Corps before joining the RAF when he was seventeen. Started his training on Tiger Moths but was then sent to Canada to remuster as a bomb aimer. Remembers travelling on the Queen Mary, where he was assigned to escort Winston Churchill, and his training in Canada on Ansons and Blenheims IV. After completing his training, he was posted to 463 Squadron (RAAF) at RAF Waddington. Describes his role and his duties as a bomb aimer. Remembers some of his operations: coming back from an operation to Poland targeting the German fleet, they encountered heavy fog and managed to land safely at Carnaby airfield thanks to the fog dispersal system; taking part at the Dresden operation on the 13th of February 1945; operation to Nordhausen on the 4th of April 1945 to disrupt V2 rocket launches on London. He took part in Operation Exodus. At the end of the war, was posted to India. After the war, he trained as a navigator and flew on Neptunes, B-29s and Shackletons. Remembers fire-watching as a little boy during the Blitz in London and tells of a bomb dropping a few hundred yards away from him, leaving him unscathed.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
149 Squadron
1660 HCU
29 OTU
463 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
FIDO
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Carnaby
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
Shackleton
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/684/9230/PBaileyM1701.2.jpg
5eb5be45c88f8f16a2f3cd11e46d6ed8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/684/9230/ABaileyM170815.2.mp3
6ec78b2cfec112f431e19ee3bbcc279f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Maurice
M Bailey
Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice 'Bill' Bailey (-2020). He flew a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 227 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bailey, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Do my best, right, so this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Maurice Bailey at his home on the fifth, is that fifteenth? Fifteenth of August 2017 with [unclear] Bailey. I’ll just put that down there.
MB: Yes.
DK: Just put that there, so, it’s catching you rather than me. If I keep looking down, I’m just making sure it’s working.
MB: Ok.
DK: Yes, I have been caught out when the batteries have suddenly stopped. Ok, so, what I want to ask you first, Maurice, what were you doing before the war?
MB: Very good question, you’ll have to bear with me because my memory’s not good. I left school at fourteen in those days, my mother and father were separated, I can vaguely remember my father and his name was William Bailey and I don’t know whether it was a result of that but although my name is Maurice, spelled MAURICE, I was always everywhere known as Bill, Bill Bailey, so everyone that you may talk to, at any time will always know me as Bill rather than Maurice and I left school at fourteen, I first went to work in a machine factory called Sylvesters and I worked on a circular saw, just for interest [laughs] first thing [unclear] I got my hand [unclear], I was damn lucky that I didn’t lose it but I spent some time, it was rather nasty, you know, it was months rather than days or weeks properly healing [unclear] before I could use my hand [clears throat] excuse me, fortunately my mother was a skilled nurse, and she used to insist on me doing hand exercises several times a day, you know, I’m quite sure it’s due to the mother’s insistence that my arm is quite normal now but when, as I grew older I was, I always remember I went to an ordinary school, [unclear] school, and one day the teacher called us all out into the playground and you must come out boys and look at this, that is known as an aeroplane, you know, I know it sounds silly but you never saw one in those days, I distinctly, I’m not begin dramatic about this, I distinctly remember and I would be, I don’t know how old, ten, probably somewhere like that and I said to one of my mates, one day I’m gonna be flying one of those, and of course they all laughed at me, you know, there’s nobody that comes to school like this will never get to fly, well, of course I went to work, I left school at fourteen years old
DK: Whereabouts was this that you went to school? Where was home this time?
MB: It, home was in, I remember distinctly 19 [unclear] road
DK: And which town was at this time?
MB: That was in the Potteries area
DK: Right.
MB: And there was
US: Was it Tunstall [unclear] Maurice?
MB: Yeah, I was gonna say, you may remember the landmarks as you drive on the main road, there’s Mow Cop, Mow Cop Castle but I was actually born on the other side, that would be south east of Mow Cop, at a place called Biddulph. I don’t remember [unclear] I was born and my mother, my father was a naughty lad, he used to drink a lot and I never met him until years later when I was older, you know and working but my mother had this habit of having, money was very tight, coins and she put things on the table [unclear] when the milkman comes and you know, sixpence for a loaf of bread or whatever and me father used to come apparently and take the top coins off each one so he could go out for a pint, he was not a very nice man and what’s that [unclear]?
US: [unclear] to it
MB: Oh, I can’t really see it very well, but anyway that was roughly how I was brought up as a young lad, my mother and father split up and my mother went to live with her parents, my grandfather, their names were Whitehurst and Arthur Whitehurst, my grandfather was I suppose what we now describe as an over the top Christian, damn was a naughty word, swearing, I distinctly remember him coming to me, there were fields opposite to where we lived and of course as young kids we’re always playing in the fields football and what have it, and I can’t remember exactly what I said but it was either buggar or bloody, you know and he stood and I can remember to this day now the horrified expression on his face, he said to me, I have never heard anybody in our language, in our family use such language, get in the house! And I wasn’t allowed out for, oh, a week or so after that and, you know, and I’d only said, either damn or buggar or something, I mean if you’d heard me later when I was in the RAF, for goodness’ sake, what he would have said! [laughs]
DK: Did you see, find the RAF a bit of a release from that [unclear]?
MB: Very much so, yeah. I mean
DK: Yeah. So, you’d seen this plane at school, was that, how did you then up in the RAF?
MB: I remember saying to my school chums
US: If you read that [unclear]
MB: Darling, I can’t see very well but it’s ok I can remember, I remember very clearly at school saying to my mates, when the aircraft came out over, in fact it was all new then that the teacher said quick boys and girls come out into the playground and look, there’s an aircraft going over and as I looked up [unclear] I don’t know what it was single engine thing and spoke to one of my mates and I can’t remember the actual words but they said something like, more or less, how they managed to keep up there without you know, falling out of the sky, I said yeah but one day I shall fly and they all laughed [unclear] school go up there and flying and I said, well, we’ll see
DK: So, how long after that was it that you then joined the RAF?
MB: Well, in those days you left school at fourteen and I must have been thirteen-ish, something like that and I went to work in the machine shop at a place called Sylvesters in Tunstall, which was the nearest town
DK: Yeah.
MB: And it was ok because I was working on machines, you know, which suited me, I mean, I liked, I was always dismantling things and reassembling them and that sort of thing
DK: Is that what made you, is that how you became a flight engineer?
MB: Oh, I think so, yes.
DK: Yeah.
MB: But I always remember this instance when we came out and the teacher said, that’s called an aeroplane, you know, and I turned to one of my mates and I said, I shall fly one of those one day, and they all laughed, [unclear] daft
DK: Ca you remember joining the RAF at seventeen?
MB: Yes, seventeen and a quarter I think I was something like that
DK: Did you go into the recruitment office?
MB: Yes, I went to, I can’t remember the exact words, I mean, I knew that I would be like everybody that was healthy called up anyway and I thought I ain’t going in the army or the navy, I’m going in the RAF and I want to fly
DK: So that was your reason for joining the RAF?
MB: Oh absolutely
DK: To avoid the army and navy
MB: OH yes!
DK: And hoped to fly
MB: Yes. And at that time, I must have been seventeen and I was working and as I said in an engineering firm called Sylvesters
DK: Do you remember much about the early training in the RAF?
MB: Oh yes, I can remember it clearly.
DK: Was there a lot of square bashing?
MB: Oh yes, a lot of that and
DK: Can you recall where your initial training took place?
MB: The squadron was at RAF Balderton,
DK: Alright.
MB: Where’s Valery? Oh, she’s gone. She’s very good, she got notes about this, it’ll come to me in a
DK: Yeah, yeah.
MB: Where did I go? It was in London when I joined up
DK: Was it at Lord’s Cricket Ground?
MB: It was near there
DK: Yeah, yeah.
MB: Yes.
DK: So it was Lord’s Cricket Ground initially?
MB: Yes, it was.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
MB: I’ve got notes of all this somewhere or Valery has, and I know it was, I think a three week’s course when you first joined up, literally to teach you to salute and march and stamp to attention and
DK: Right.
MB: If you’ll forgive the King’s English, all this bullshit, you know
DK: You did like that then, all the
MB: Oh no, nobody really but I mean, I was so keen on flying that I would have done anything, I would have stood on me hands for a couple of weeks just as long as I could get
DK: Can you recall how you became a flight engineer then?
MB: Yes. You went through a series of exams and tests, bear in mind that I came from, I was a very, very much a poor working-class family,
DK: Yeah, yeah.
MB: You know, there’s no, I couldn’t dress that one, no matter how I tried but having said that, I was so determined that I wanted to go flying and all my mates and the teachers said there is no one that comes from this sort of school and flies
DK: Can you recall what the training involved, to be a flight engineer?
MB: Yes, oh yes.
DK: What did you have to do?
MB: Well, first of all, there were certain tests when you went and joined up and said I want to be aircrew, what do you want to be? And of course everybody wanted to be a pilot, well, they said to me, you can’t be a pilot, you haven’t had a good enough education and there were various things and anyway they said, there’s a list longer than your arm of lads that all want to be pilots, you will never be a pilot.
DK: Did you never consider being an air gunner or
MB: Well, I, my next set of questions was well, what can I be? And they said, all the things that meant I would be ground staff and I said, I shall never join the RAF to be ground staff, I shall wait until I am conscripted and if it’s the army, it’s the army, and if it’s the navy, it’s the navy, if I can’t go in the Air Force flying, I don’t go in.
DK: So, you were very determined on that
MB: Absolutely.
DK: Yeah.
MB: In respect of my lovely wife, at that stage I used to use a lot of bad language and I emphasized it by using that, you can, I’ll leave it to your imagination
DK: So, can you remember the first time you got in an aircraft?
MB: Yes, I do, very clearly.
DK: Where was that then?
MB: That would be, well, let me just think through now, the squadron was at Balderton, I’ve got this written down somewhere
US: It’s in your hand
MB: Well, is this? Oh, [unclear].
DK: And it says, you went to the heavy conversion unit at Syerston.
MB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MB: Yes, it was before I went to Syerston, it’ll come to me
DK: So, yeah, ok.
MB: And but there was, when you joined up so to speak, there was a reception centre, everybody went there and it was there that you were categorised and I clearly remember they kept trying to push you into situations that they were short of gunners and so forth and then I’m sure you will forgive me but there was lots of bad language used in those days and I clearly remember saying I ain’t going to be an f-ing gunner or anything else, I’m going to fly and be a pilot and I remember this person saying to me, don’t speak to me like that, he says, otherwise you won’t be anything, I said, alright, I won’t be anything, I’ll go, and he laughed and called me up, you know, and he said, hang on, you can, you just calm down a bit, he said, there are several things that you can be and be trained in aircrew, and of course the first thing he said, is gunner, I said, I’m not going to be a gunner and I said, I’m not going to be a front gunner, a mid-upper gunner or a rear gunner, oh, he said, you seem to know a lot about aircraft, I said, I read nothing else but aircraft, that’s why I’m going to fly one and he thought a bit and he said, well, how good are you at maths? You know, and I said, well, you must have results, I’ve done the entrance test and he lifted it up and he said you’re quite good, I see, he said, well, there’s a possibility you could be a navigator but he said, I very much doubt it, he said, everyone wants to be a pilot, so he said, you won’t be a pilot, so I said, well, what else is there? He says, well, the next best thing up front, he says, there is the front gunner but the next thing is the flight engineer, he said, and that to me stands out, he said, because he said, you’d be an engineer [unclear]
DK: I’m just having a look at your logbook here and it says you did the flight engineering school at St Athans
MB: That’s right
DK: Yeah. With number 4 SOTT, School of Technical Training
MB: Yes, that’s correct
DK: And that was on the Lancasters there?
MB: It was, no it was mainly on
DK: On Stirlings
MB: Stirlings, yes.
DK: Yes.
MB: Yes.
DK: So,
MB: I know, I clearly remember the Lancaster landed, for some reason it must have been running short of fuel and I was that keen, you know, I was looking around it sort of thing and the skipper had gone back to it, something, some reason rather and he was a nice chap and he spoke to and he said, what do you been training for? You know, and I said, well, aircrew, I said, but they are trying to push all on to being gunners and he said, why don’t you consider applying to be a flight engineer?
DK: I’ll just embarrass you know, it’s got your examination results, flight engineer’s course, and you got 66.9 percent.
MB: Yes. Yes.
DK: And it’s stamped PASSED
MB: Yes.
DK: You passed that.
MB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So that was 9th of August 19444.
MB: That’s about right, yes.
DK: So then you’ve got on to the Heavy Conversion Unit?
MB: Yes.
DK: And that was on Stirlings.
MB: Stirlings, that’s right.
DK: Yes. So what did you think of the Stirlings as an aeroplane?
MB: Not much. They were, most of them were radial engines and they were well known for being faulty, very seldom did any of them go on ops and come back with all four engines still running. And I remember thinking like, well, I’ve got to fly on one of those, I’ll fly on one because I want to fly and of course we were trained on Stirlings and I flew for a while on Stirlings.
DK: So, the aircraft didn’t give you much confidence.
MB: No.
DK: No. Were you busy then as a flight engineer on a Stirling? Did you have a lot to do?
MB: Oh yes, it was difficult because whereas in a Lanc, the Lancaster you were upfront whereas the pilot and the flight engineer and in fact and I don’t say this boastfully but the engineer, particularly if he knew what he was doing, did most of the flying.
DK: Yeah.
MB: You know, pilots usually, as was the case with my skipper, they were heavy drinkers and they would always go back and sit in the navigation compartment, the navigator could keep his eye on the course and all the rest of it, the engineer which in [unclear], would sit on the controls which would be in, what they call it when it’s all automatic?
DK: Yeah
MB: Anyway, it would be on automatic control
DK: Yeah, autopilot
MB: Autopilot, that’s right
DK: George,
MB: Auto, that’s right, yeah
DK: George’s the autopilot
MB: Yeah, that’s right, yeah,
DK: That’s it
MB: And the skipper used to, when he got to know me, I mean, was a long while before we became friends because he was an out and out snob, he came from a very wealthy family and he expected everybody to stand to attention and call him sir
DK: Shall I mention his name? Is it Flight [unclear] Mike
MB: Mike
DK: Aughton,
MB: Aughton, that’s right, he was a nice bloke actually
DK: That what we won’t record it [laughs]
MB: Yes, but I always remember
DK: Was there a big class difference then in the RAF?
MB: Oh, very much so
DK: Yeah
MB: Oh yes, I mean, I was very much working-class lad, you know, but Butch, the
US: Bomb aimer
DK: Bomb aimer
MB: The bomb aimer, you see, the pilot, bomb aimer and navigator were all trained very similarly, and they all had that same level of education and [unclear] if you like
DK: So were they a bit of clique?
MB: Very much so
DK: Yeah.
MB: And I mean it was very unusual for any of those three not to be a commissioned officer and for me to be upfront was the expression because as a flight engineer, you were really like a second pilot, for me to be upfront just as a, in that time, a flight sergeant I was and later on warrant officer, warrant officer heist non commission rank and it suited me fine because you were held in quite high esteem in the sergeant’s mess where we dined and I did my tour as catering officer, you know, in my off period, and the girls that did the cooking, I don’t mean this conceitedly but they took to like me because they knew I was an ordinary working-class lad and I used to live like a lord and I was offered a commission later on and I thought, no, I don’t pay any fees for this, I eat better than the officers, you know, so I am staying as a warrant officer, which I did,
DK: Just for the benefit of the recording, I’m just gonna read something from the logbook here, it says, after St Athans, you were at 1661 Conversion Unit
MB: Correct
DK: That’s with the Stirlings
MB: Yes
DK: And then you went to number 5 Lancaster Finishing School
MB: Correct
DK: So that’s where you first flew on the Lancaster at finishing school
MB: That’s right, yes
DK: Yeah. And that’s presumably where you met your pilot?
MB: That’s where we crewed up, yes
DK: Right. At number 5 Lancaster Finishing School
MB: Yes
DK: So, that’s where you first met Michael [unclear]
MB: Michael [unclear], yes, and
DK: And then after that, you then gone to 227 Squadron at Balderton
MB: That’s right. It was worth noting then that it was very clear that Mike, the skipper, he wanted all officers in his crew, he was a real snob and to me I think then I was a flight sergeant oh god, you know fancy having enough flight sergeant in your crew and particularly sitting upfront the second pilot and the bomb aimer Butch, he was quite unusual in those days, he actually had a car and he had a problem starting it and he came to me, they all called me Bill, and he said, Bill, he said, you used to work in a garage? And yeah, I said, yeah, he said, I’ve having trouble starting my car, he said, do you think you can give me some idea of what’s wrong with it? And of course, I went and had a look at it and I said, yeah, all the valves have had it, once, all the valves grinding, and you put on some new valves, God, he says, that’s gonna cost me a fortune, isn’t it? I said, no, I can do that for you [unclear], he said, what, you can actually take the [unclear]? You know he couldn’t believe it but in fact I ended up virtually stripping the engine, I put new bearings in, new valves, ground it all up and of course at the end of it he’d got a nice engine, a nice running car and wherever we went, you know, he used to tell the story about, oh, our engineer Bill [unclear] but so I made a good friend of Butch and I always remember, I don’t know what the situation was but Mike the skipper just wasn’t nice to me, he hated this idea of a non-commissioned bloke sitting upfront with him
DK: Was he a good pilot?
MB: Was very good, oh yeah, was very skilled, you didn’t get to fly on operations on the Lanc as a pilot unless you were really and if you did, and you weren’t very good, you didn’t last long
DK: So, how many operations did you actually do then?
US: Twenty-seven wasn’t it?
MB: Twenty, what?
US: You always told me it was twenty-seven.
MB: Twenty-seven, that’s’ right. Yes, twenty-seven operations.
DK: In your logbook here I think, it refers to what must be your first operation, the 6th of November 1944
MB: [unclear]
DK: To Gravenhorst?
MB: Ah, Gravenhorst
DK: Gravenhorst, I’ll just spell that for the record, GRAVENHORST
MB: Yes, that’s right
DK: Do you remember much about your first operation?
MB: Yeah, I don’t remember details but I remember feeling for the want of that expression excited I mean, bearing in mind we’ve done lots of training exercises and take offs and landings and my skipper, Mike [unclear], he’d never been anywhere but at school and university, he just wasn’t with it, you know, with one of the lads.
DK: So this was the whole crew’s first operation then?
MB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MB: Oh yes. And Butch the bomb aimer as I said had a car and I actually almost reconditioned the engine and of course as far as Butch was concerned
DK: You [unclear]
MB: I was brilliant
DK: So, what was it like flying at night? I mean, these are night operations so you’re being shot at and are they quite scary or?
MB: Yeah, but bear in mind, I mean, you are young and daft and that’s what you wanted to do but also you’re very, very busy and yeah I mean as a flight engineer particularly you couldn’t leave your situation, imagine the dashboard full of instruments and most, this sound very [unclear] but most people including engineers although they’d been trained as flight engineers they hadn’t had my background, I’d worked in garages and what [unclear] and I had stripped engines, there’s no problem and rebuilt them
Dk: So, your role is then to look after, make sure the engines are running properly
MB: Oh yes
DK: Presumably the fuel as well
MB: Oh yes, yeah, flight engineer is responsible for making sure that the engines, you know the settings for revs? Oh, my brain, I have an onset of Alzheimer, I have difficult remembering sometimes
DK: So you’re, you’re making sure the engines are running ok
MB: Absolutely
DK: Yeah
MB: And, you know, you can tell from temperature gauges
DK. Yeah, alright
MB: Oil pressures and whathaveye if things are working correctly and my skipper as an example had been trained on Halifaxes I think they were and the engines are quite different and he was quite used to operating plus two pounds of boosts, a Lancaster operates on plus four, after take-off when you are getting full power which is twenty pounds a boost you, when you know that your air speed is climbing even though your altitude is climbing, you can afford to throttle back and make the engines take it easy a bit, you know, some people bang the throttles open, you know, and they bugger the engines up in, you know, quite a few operations, where I very quickly got a reputation that our aircraft wanted very little doing to it rather than, you know, regular servicing and
DK: So, did your pilot put them on the wrong setting then?
MB: He hadn’t a clue, he was as thick as [unclear], he was really was, a nice bloke and the point that I am leading up to tell you, he wanted all commissioned officers and I was only a flight sergeant I think at that time and he went to the flight engineer leader whose name was Tuffy Coulston, I’ll never forget him, Tuffy couldn’t complete a sentence of more than about four or five words without the f word in it and when my skipper came to him and he said what flight engineers have you got that are commissioned officers? He said, you’re Aughton’s crew, aren’t you? He said, you’ve got Bill Bailey, haven’t you? He said, yes, that’s right, and I won’t use the actual word he used in respect on my wife, yes, what’s the matter with him? He said, you’re the world’s biggest, you can guess what, you’ve got the best engineer on the squadron, he said, do you realise that he had the first self-service garage in the UK and he opened his own repair shop in a property which he actually built himself, which I did. He said, and he was the only bloke that ever made that service station work at a profit because everybody used to come to fill up the petrol so they could book in to be serviced at his garage
DK: Just taking you back a little bit, when you used to take-off, did you actually have to do anything to help the pilot?
MB: Oh yes, yeah
DK: What did you, what was your role then?
MB: Well, in a Lancaster, the pilot, I’m sitting at the controls now
DK: Yeah
MB: And the pilot’s on my left, here, slightly higher than me with the joystick as we called it
DK: Yeah
MB: In the middle are the throttles, [unclear] levers, [unclear] levers
DK: Yeah
MB: And all the dials that tell you the temperature changing and the four engines of course, so you’ve got four of everything, temperature, boost control
DK: Yeah
MB: Oil pressure and all that sort of thing and what, unless you’d been properly trained or I mean as in my own case, I’d been working as an engineer before I went in the RAF, you’ve got to know what you were doing to know what all those readings meant and if one engine was showing high temperatures, low oil pressure, you know, there’s problems
DK: Did you ever loose an engine?
MB: Oh yes, yes, getting back
DK: And what would you do? You had to shut it down
MB: Feather it, you called it, yeah, turn the propellers in line of flight so that it stopped revolving and
DK: Did that happen on a number of occasions?
MB: Yes, the worst of all was fortunately we were at a very high altitude over twenty thousand feet, I can’t remember exactly, if I looked at my logbook I’d probably remember the actual operation and we really got hammered, you know, and I knew that we’d been hit in two of the engines, both outer port and starboard outer engines, but I didn’t, we called it feather them, you know, stop them, yeah, feathering means turning into line of flight to stop the propellers revolving. I kept them running, watching the temperature and oil pressure and everything until we got out of the target area and then I shut them down
DK: So you were flying on two engines then
MB. Flying on two and then the third one packed up and it looked very much it was going to be a case of bail out and by that time, I mean, my skipper had been, he simply didn’t like me, he was a snob and he wanted all commissioned officers, you see and I said to him, if you want to get back alive, you know, those two outer engines have got to be feathered, the port inner, which was one of the remaining engines, is the next one to pack up, so go easy on it, but whatever we’ve got to do is keep your altitude as high as you possibly can until you get in [unclear] to stalling and then let it slowly, nose down which will help the speed you see. Which we did and of course we got back.
DK: So, you must have covered some distance then on the [unclear]
MB: Oh yes, I mean, I thought we would have been very fortunate if we didn’t have to do a crash landing in the fields somewhere.
DK: Did you get back to Balderton or?
MB: We got back to our own base, yes.
DK: Got back to your own base.
MB: And in fact, I’ve thought about this many, many times, I told the skipper, by that time, he’d got used to the idea that at least engineering wise I did know what I was talking about, I said, look, keep the altitude as high as you can, obviously you’ve got to keep the nose down to keep your airspeed to that situation that we were under control but try your best so that when we come in to land, I’ll start the other inner engine up but be aware it will pack up, if you’re not very, very careful but at least then with a bit of luck we’ll be able to land on two engines. I said we’ve got to, we’ve already called up, you know, an emergency landing and that meant instead of going on the circuit, you made right for the landing point and they stopped all other aircraft and you just went in and I can’t remember, I think it was Balderton where we landed but I can’t be sure, that I was able to calculate because that was my job, you know, that would be very, very fortunate
DK: Can you recall what it was that damaged the engines? Was it
MB: Oh, we’d been hit
DK: By flak
MB: Oh yes, yeah. And in most incidents the real problem is if, first if the cooling goes and you can’t keep it cool not by any other means then that means the oil pressure rises that means [unclear] so the engines will cease up and we were down to two engines then and I said to the skipper, keep the height, by that time at least he would listen to me, maintain your altitude, level and speed, you’ve got to keep speed enough to keep airborne obviously but don’t be tempted to let the nose go down to get your speed up because you’re gonna need it otherwise we crashed and you will need the altitude in order to bail out once we’re under our own, over our own territory, I mean you can’t bail out over less than two thousand feet
DK: No
MB: And so it was a dodgy thing, I mean, they, the bomb aimer Frank was doing his calculations we are just about keeping off altitude that we can bail out and he was all for bailing out, Frank [unclear] aircraft’s no good, that’s when you please yourself I’d rather walk out.
DK: Did the pilot give you the option to bail out or?
MB: Oh no.
DK: No, you stick with it.
MB: No. By that time the skipper was more [unclear] to me, at first he wanted all commissioned officers and everybody else, he was a snob
DK: Did he thank you when you got back?
MB: Not, no, they never did, not in so many words, no, but I think he said words like you did a good job there, Bill, you know, but we did alright really but I mean I always remember after you’re so busy you don’t think, we came in on a, we called up and went for emergency landing to wherever it was and that meant you don’t join the circuit you’re navigator plots a course which brings you right on to the entrance to the landing spot so that you’re all in line with the runway loosing altitude all the time and we’ve all thought you know we’re gonna go in far too low, we ‘re not gonna make it, we’ll land in a field or something, anyway at last we saw the airfield and we were on the right course we’d got a damn good navigator, Len and I said to skipper you gotta take your chance now, I’ll open the last engine, you know, try and climb and then if one packs up, at least you can put your nose down and keep the airspeed and it didn’t pack up but, you know, we went
DK: Looking back on that operation, do you think you were quite lucky?
MB: Oh, very much.
DK: Yeah
MB: [unclear] as soon as we got to the UK coast bailed out, but we didn’t, we landed
DK: Do you think that was the worst incident that happened to you?
MB: Oh, to me? Yeah, definitely.
DK: Yeah. Can you recall ever being attacked by any German fighters?
MB: Oh yes, many times. Well, so many times, probably eight or nine times.
DK: So, what happened when the German fighters were attacking?
MB: Well, you’ve got, the bomb aimer is also, he operates the front gun
DK: Yeah
MB: Which is not much good because I mean obviously at the front, if an aircraft comes to attack you from the front our speed would be something like one seventy, the fighter would be at least two hundred so there is a closing speed of nearly four hundred miles an hour you know they’re gone whereas if they’re on your tail which is very dangerous they can keep out of sight till the last minute, keep a slight [unclear] just dive down on you, quick [mimics machine gun fire] and you’ve had it. But we got good gunners, mid-upper and rear
DK: So how did you avoid being attacked then?
MB: Well, there was a point at which, you see, when you are, when gunners are shooting, I think it was every fourth or fifth bullet that came out, is
DK: Tracer
MB: Tracer, so you can see it, you see and you can aim better by following where your tracer’s going but the trick was avoid the temptation to shoot unless you’d got something to shoot at and you’re pretty sure you might hit it you know
DK: Was that to avoid drawing attention to yourself then?
MB: Oh yes, as soon as you started using those guns other aircraft I mean, German aircraft could lock on to you, if they got no tracers and no nothing apart from only perhaps glowing from your engines at the back they’ve got nothing to lock on to, you know, and your best bet was where they would expect you to dive would be to roll and climb, they’d be rolling the opposite way and diving on you so then, you know, there would be a separation speed of anything up to six hundred miles an hour, you’re gone before the chance to turn round and find you or they’d find some other poor soul
DK: So these emergency roles did the pilot do this quite often whne [unclear] being attacked?
MB: Oh yes, yes.
DK: So he’d take the orders from the gunners to roll the aircraft
MB: Yes, yes.
DK: And was it part of your role to also look out for fighter or
MB: Yes, yes
DK: So, can you recall ever actually seeing any?
MB: Oh, very, very often I mean but I did actual operational flights you normally did thirty in a tour I did twenty seven and [unclear] looking back, and this is not being dramatic, you know, I mean, looking back I was very fortunate I would say out of twenty odd flights, at least ten of them were very, very fortunate that we got back but in fact we got back every time, except the last one, I mean, literally when we landed, the aircraft fell to pieces.
DK: Is this from Leipzig?
MB: I think it was
DK: Yeah, your last operation here, I just read this out, it was the tenth of April, that would be 1945
MB: That’s right
DK: So, it was to Leipzig
MB: Leipzig, that’s it.
DK: So, this was your twenty seventh operation
MB: Yes
DK: So, did something go wrong then?
MB: Well, go wrong, yes, I mean, engines were overheating, I mean, we lost far too much of what you should ask of Merlin engines you know, I think, two had packed up altogether and we’d been flying on one gradually losing altitude which was ok we were back over the UK then and we’d, the navigator worked out that we would be down to about two thousand feet which would put us on the circuit and we could ask for emergency landing and go straight in on the what we called funnel the approach to the
DK: Do you know, can you recall now why you didn’t do the thirty operations, it was just twenty-seven? Cause you didn’t fly after that.
MB: Yeah, it was close to the end of the war.
DK: You simply because the war ended.
MB: Yeah. Well, almost but I mean, it was regarded, I mean, they had an attitude or a system where, they knew the war was going to end within weeks, days sort of thing and the blokes that had done [unclear] over fifteen operational flights must have done a lot of training and were very experienced and it wasn’t fair, some of the new boys had done very little, they could take a few risks and we could take it easy, so, I mean, it was unusual, I had done [unclear] twenty seven and it was unusual that I was still on operations
DK: So, all these years later, looking back on your time in Bomber Command, how do you feel about it now?
MB: I wouldn’t go flying
DK. Really?
MB: Oh no, very, very, I mean, anybody that did more than about ten or fifteen ops and was still alive was very, very lucky, and I’m talking numbers, I mean, there was lots of us that did survive obviously, but there’s a lot more that didn’t. I mean and you got quite, sound horrible, we used to say, when you landed, are we all in lad whoever was doing the, forget what’s it called, the counting effectively, and they’d say, yes, it’s just two more but we know one of them coming back because they’d had some message roll that was going down and they did say things like who was that? I always remember this one, Frank Butcher, oh I never like, excuse me darling, never did like that bastard, you know
DK: Yeah
MB: But we didn’t mean it, that’s the way we spoke
US: It was a way of kind of hardening yourself I think
MB: Yes
US: Against the reality
MB: Yeah.
US: Because you’d know that it could be you the next time
MB: Oh absolutely. Yes, I, I mean the lads, my lads were then other colleagues that flew, not just our air folks, they’d come in and everybody knew me as Bill, Bill Bailey, how many ops have you done Bill? And I’d say like towards the end, twenty-five, twenty six, whatever it was, oh, you are as good as bloody dead, mate, you know, can I have your, you know, your best blue uniform? Can I, you know, that was the way they used to joke, you see, we never thought [unclear] about it.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
MB: For a short time, but not for long, there was one, I think that was Butch wasn’t it? did I meet him when I knew you?
US: We met them at the RAF Balderton [unclear]
MB: Oh, that’s right, yes,
US: Not Butch
MB: No, it was one of
US: His son and grandson we met
MB: Grandson, that’s right, yes. But it was at that time when Valery was just referring to I suddenly realised, you know, just how fortunate I was, you know
US: Say as well Maurice, you’ve always told me that when you had two friends and you joined up together although they went in different squadrons, you were the only one out of you three who came back
MB: Out of the three, yes
DK: So there was three of you, all friends and the other two died
MB: The other two got killed, yeah.
DK: Ok, I’ll stop you there, I’m conscious we’ve been going for a little while and well fifty minutes but thanks very much for that, that’s
MB: Pleasure
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Maurice Bailey
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaileyM170815, PBaileyM1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:48:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Bailey left school at fourteen and went to work in an engineering firm. Tells of how he always wanted to become a pilot, since he saw an aeroplane for the first time at school. After being discouraged from becoming a pilot by the RAF recruiters, he then trained for a flight engineering role. He flew twenty-seven operations with 227 Squadron at RAF Balderton. Describes his role and his duties as a flight engineer. Remembers carrying out an emergency landing with only two engines working. Flew his first operation to Gravenhorst on the 6th of November 1944 and his last operation on the 10th of April 1945 to Leipzig.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Hörstel
Germany--Leipzig
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-06
1945-04-10
227 Squadron
aircrew
crash
flight engineer
Lancaster
RAF Balderton
Stirling
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9237/PBarnesR1701.1.jpg
3e4f8d44c9f6217fb8174f979017bf4d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9237/ABarnesR170803.1.mp3
e1632569838eaa6a9f6a2e8d0a0159cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barnes, Robert
R Barnes
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Robert Barnes (b. 1923) He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
2 Interviews
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barnes, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh interviewing Bob Barnes at his home on August the 3rd 2017. So, if I just put that down there.
RB: Right.
DK: I might occasionally look at it. It’s just to make sure it’s working.
RB: Yeah [laughs]
DK: So, what, what I wanted to ask you first of all was —
RB: Sorry. If I have, if you —
DK: No, that’s ok.
RB: If I don’t hear you properly it’s because I’m hearing a bit —
DK: Ok. Ok. What, what I wanted to ask first was what were you doing before the war?
RB: Well, I was in the last year at school and living in London. We were evacuated to Duke of Sutherland’s place near Guildford.
DK: Right.
RB: Thirty of us. They thought, they were expecting girls but but anyway we had the year and I came back to London. And I joined the ARP as a messenger and I did about a year on that. And then the Home Guard. Both the infantry and rocket sites.
DK: Right. Do you know how old you would have been then?
RB: Well, I left school at sixteen. And so, sixteen to seventeen I went to a Government Training Centre and was on engineering. And then I did a year or so with a machine tool firm who were renovating machine tools. And then 19 — [pause] I actually volunteered in 1943.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And I went to Cardington for an initial test.
DK: Was, was there any reason why you chose the RAF? Was there any particular reason?
RB: Well —
DK: Rather than the Army or Navy.
RB: No. The only reason, all my friends had gone in to service. Some had been lost. And I thought, well the Air Force, to be honest I was in a Reserved Occupation and you only had three places to go. As an artificer in the Navy. Which meant below decks.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Which I didn’t fancy. Or down in the mines which I didn’t fancy that either.
DK: No.
RB: So, just left the Air Force. But just really all my friends had gone in the services and I thought it was time I went. Signed on in, at Lord’s Cricket Ground and we had about six weeks in Regent’s Park area. Billeted in flats. We had our meals in the Zoo. And then I had six months, I think it was six months at Torquay.
DK: Right.
RB: And then on to St Athan for the engineering course. And then ’44, I went to Swinderby on the initial introduction to flying. And we were on Stirlings for that.
DK: Right. Had you met your crew at this point?
RB: No. I hadn’t got, I was just coming to that.
DK: Oh. Ok. Sorry.
RB: No. They allocated the engineers to the crew at Swinderby.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And —
DK: So, they’d already crewed up then.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And then we went over to — I forget the name now. Over for the transfer to Lancasters.
DK: Right. Was that the Lancaster Finishing School?
RB: More or less. Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I think, I forget how long I was there but then we went to, to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Right. Just taking you back a bit. What did you think of the Stirlings as an aeroplane?
RB: Well, I suppose it’s like every. With the Lancaster I was happy. I’d go anywhere in that. And I suppose to anyone who flew in Stirlings they’d have the same attitude. Although it was a bit more vulnerable than —
DK: Yeah.
RB: And my main memory of the Stirling was if we went to a height where it was cold we had pipes with heating coming through and sticking them down your jacket [laughs] But anyway that was the time when D-Day was going.
DK: Right.
RB: And then from Swinderby we went. I went to Skellingthorpe and stayed there ‘til the end of the war.
DK: And that was with 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And our skipper was a flight lieutenant in [pause] He was a flight commander at the time and then he became CO. And of course as a crew we didn’t fly all that many operations. We did eighteen together.
DK: Right.
RB: But if someone was ill on another crew then we did the extra trips.
DK: Can you remember the pilot’s name?
RB: Yes. He was Flight Lieutenant Flint when I, when I joined. And then he went to wing commander and he became CO of the squadron.
DK: So, he was the CO of 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Wing Commander Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh right. What was he —
RB: I think he was well known although I didn’t realise at the time. He had a George Cross for rescuing a navigator in a Blenheim, I think it was.
DK: That’s what I thought. Yeah. I recognised the name when you said.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And —
DK: What was he like then?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What was he like?
RB: Well, he wasn’t a person who you made friends with but he was fair. And strict as far as the flying went.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And as a crew we worked pretty well worked together. We were a bit of an odd crowd. One from, the navigator was from Liverpool.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember — can you remember the crew’s name? The navigator’s name.
RB: MacLeod.
DK: MacLeod. Yeah.
RB: Then the two gunners. Tombs and Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs was a Cockney and I think Johnson came from the Midlands somewhere. And the bomb aimer. He was also from the Midlands.
DK: Right.
RB: He was another Johnson, I think. And myself.
DK: Right. And the wireless operator. Can you remember?
RB: The wireless operator. Yeah. [pause] I can’t remember at the moment. But it might come back as we go through.
DK: Ok. So, so you got on well as a crew then did you?
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. Yes. The —
DK: Did you, even though he was the CO of the squadron did you socialise at all?
RB: Various. He didn’t socialise with us but on occasions when we were stood down we’d perhaps go in to Nottingham and have a night out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And that would be the rest of the crew. Not, not the navigator. But the bomb aimer and the gunners.
DK: So, get — could you just talk a little bit about what your role was as the flight engineer? What your job was?
RB: Well, the training they gave us at St Athan was completely new to me because I knew nothing about engines and that was the main part of the course. But in the air we were responsible for the fuel side and according to the book, in the handbook that we got we were supposed to know everything about the, all the aircraft.
DK: Right.
RB: But I, I don’t think we learned all that [laughs]
DK: But you, you knew the important part about the engines and the fuel.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And watching the instruments. See. Keep an eye on them. Make sure they were going alright. We had one occasion when we were running up for, in the morning before going on a raid. And we’d started up the engines. And of course I was looking at the instruments and then I suddenly looked downstairs and the ground crew was jumping up and down. And we’d got steam up from a valve for the coolant that had got stuck.
DK: Right.
RB: So we had to shut that down. But apart from that they [pause] we didn’t really have much problem with the aircraft itself. The ground crew did a good job.
DK: Did you still go on that operation with the coolant problem?
RB: With the —
DK: The coolant.
RB: Oh No.
DK: No.
RB: No. They settled that in the —
DK: It wasn’t fixed for you to then take-off.
RB: No.
DK: No. No.
RB: No. We were ok. And then that more or less happened all the way through. The only time that [pause] I went on a briefing side for one operation and I went out to the runway where they, where they had the waving the aircraft off. And we had the 61 Squadron. One of their aircraft it went off and then it circled around and for some reason something had gone wrong and they landed down. Everything went up. The only, the rear gunner was left on the edge of the crater. So, overall my view of the operations was that it was a bit of a lottery whether you survived or not.
DK: So how many operations in total did you fly?
RB: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen. Can you remember any of the targets?
RB: The — ?
DK: The targets.
RB: Well, that was a problem really in those days because bombing was not an accurate thing. They’d mark the site.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And if the flares got put out or the wind took them away so you had a creep affect. And whether you hit the actual target or not was a —
DK: No.
RB: You wouldn’t know.
DK: Were most of your operations in daylight or, or night time?
RB: I’ve got a logbook here.
DK: Ah. You’ve got the logbook.
[pause]
RB: That’s all the training.
DK: Right. That’s all — so, you were with 1660 Conversion Unit then.
RB: Sorry?
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit.
RB: Yes.
DK: 1660.
RB: Yes. Oh sorry.
DK: So, that’s at Swinderby.
RB: Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
RB: Swinderby then Syerston.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Syerston and then Swinderby.
RB: Yes.
DK: Right. Ok. So, there’s your pilot there then. Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Flight lieutenant then.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So in green is the war operations then. So, red. Red’s at night isn’t it? And green —
RB: That’s night.
DK: Red’s night and green is daylight.
RB: That’s daylight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, that’s 19th July ‘44. That’s in France. Creil. C R E I L. That says PFF Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: [laughs] I’ll just get my other glasses.
DK: Ok.
[pause]
RB: Getting blind as well as deaf.
DK: I can, I can read it to you. It’s ok. So, just going through this then we’ve got 19th of July 1944.
RB: Yes.
DK: War operations. And it’s a flying bomb dump near to Creil in France. And it says PFF poor. So, that’s Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: Yes. That’s, that was the, I forget what that was now. PFF. I think that was to do with if enemy aircraft were around.
DK: Right. Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: The — ?
DK: Pathfinder Force.
RB: I can’t remember now.
DK: You can’t remember. I think it probably is. So, then you’ve got —
RB: Let’s see where that was, shall we?
DK: So you’ve got PFF poor there but the next raid PFF good. I think that’s, that is the Pathfinder Force.
RB: Flying bomb.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That might be the Pathfinders. I’m sure. Yes. Yes.
DK: The Pathfinder. Yes. Yes.
RB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: That’s saying PFF is poor.
RB: Yeah.
DK: PFF good on that one.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So the next raid is 20th July ’44 and it’s the railway marshalling yards in Belgium.
RB: Yes.
DK: PFF good. And then July the 24th.
RB: St Nazaire.
DK: St Nazaire. Oil storage dumps. July the 25th St Cyr Airfield. That’s C Y R.
RB: St Cyr. Versailles.
DK: Yeah. Versailles. Cyr. St Cyr Airfield. July 26th — that’s the railway junction and marshalling yards in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: And the 31st of July war operations.
RB: Reims.
DK: Reims. Reims. Yeah. Good results it says.
RB: Yes.
DK: And carrying on. So August the 16th —
RB: Yes. Stettin.
DK: Stettin. Built up area. So, August the 19th the Pallice. La Pallice.
RB: Oil storage.
DK: Oil storage. And then August the 31st — flying bomb dump again.
RB: I can’t remember where that place was.
DK: All on the French coast somewhere. For the, for the recording —
RB: Yes.
DK: I’m not going to try and pronounce this but I’ll spell it it’s B E R G E N E U S E. That’s somewhere in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, you landed back at Ford then. You didn’t get back to base.
RB: Yes. Well, on that operation we had the wing commander’s bomb aimer with us. And we were just coming away from that site and there was a single shot and as luck would have it the bomb aimer caught shrapnel in his head. And that’s why we landed at Ford.
DK: Was it, was he ok?
RB: Well, I didn’t keep up in touch with him. It’s like everything else. People were injured or went on a flight. Once they’d gone.
DK: That’s it.
RB: That was it.
DK: So, you got a replacement bomb aimer presumably.
RB: Well, that was on the way home fortunately.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok. So, then 24th of September 1944. Target — defensive enemy positions at Calais.
RB: Yes.
DK: And that time you were diverted back to Westcott.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So then, 6th of October. Target — Bremen.
RB: Bremen.
DK: Built up area. Yeah. And then the 1st of November. Target — Hamburg. Synthetic oil plants.
RB: Yes.
DK: Then 4th of December. Heilbronn. That’s H E I L.
RB: Heilbronn. Yeah.
DK: H E I L B R O N N. Heilbronn. So, that was the area bombing then. The target area. Then 30th of December —
RB: Yes.
DK: That’s, that’s Germany again isn’t it?
RB: That was when the troops were advancing on.
DK: I’ll spell this for the benefit of the recording. It’s H O U F F A L I Z E.
RB: I think on that because the troops, they weren’t sure where the troops were.
DK: Yeah.
RB: We, we went, we were briefed for the operation and then it was called off. We then had breakfast. Bacon and egg. Brought on again. Back to the mess for another meal.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And this happened three times [laughs]
DK: You had three breakfasts.
RB: Yeah. We were egg bound by that time.
DK: So, so the target was German troops in salient.
RB: Yes.
DK: So it was tactical bombing of the German troops.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And just here it says here on the 30th of December operation, it says severe icing conditions.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, did that cause any problems to your aircraft?
RB: Not really. We had the heating system which helped to get rid of it. But you can hear the bits flaking off.
DK: And then 4th of January 1945 war operations. Target — Royan. R O Y A N. South West France. German troop concentrations. And then again, 6th of January German troop concentrations in the salient. They were being hammered a bit weren’t they? So, 13th of January 1945 — Politz. P O L I T Z. Oil refineries. 14th of January — Marsberg. Oil refineries again.
RB: Yeah. They were two long flights.
DK: Politz is in Poland isn’t it? I think.
RB: Sorry?
DK: Politz. Isn’t it in Poland?
RB: I’m not sure exactly where but it was certainly —
DK: Well, in the east. Yeah.
RB: It was in the east.
DK: Yeah.
RB: In the eastern area.
DK: And then on the so that’s the 13th to Politz and then the 14th to Marsberg
RB: Yes. Merseburg.
DK: Merseburg. Sorry. Merseburg. Merseburg. And it mentions here concentrated flak. Diverted.
RB: On that one we were Window crew. So, you went around once dropping the Window and then came back to do the second trip.
DK: So, you dropped, so you dropped your bombs on the second time around?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So, you had to go over the target twice?
RB: Yes. And then with two long trips.
DK: Yeah. Well the one on the 13th of January. That’s eleven hours five minutes. And the one on the 14th of January that’s ten hours [pause] So, I think that’s all of your operations there, isn’t it?
RB: There was bringing ex-prisoners back.
DK: So, that was your last operation there then. So, then you went on to Operation Exodus.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Do you, do you remember picking up the Prisoners of War?
RB: On that one.
DK: Yeah. The 26th of April 1945.
RB: That one we were actually service crew.
DK: Right.
RB: So we didn’t bring anybody back on that one. But on this one we brought.
DK: So, there’s another trip.
RB: Yes.
DK: Brussels again.
RB: So, we stayed the night at —
DK: Yeah.
RB: Westcott.
DK: So, on the 26th of April ’45 it actually says you returned with twenty four ex-POWs. So, what sort of states were they in?
RB: Well, they were very quiet. We didn’t really have a lot to do with them. We just kept in touch with them. Seeing they were alright on the flight. But they were quiet on the main.
DK: Yeah. So another Exodus then on the 6th of May. So, at this point the war has ended then.
RB: Yes.
DK: You did a trip to Italy then after the war has ended.
RB: Yeah. That was to bring more [pause] more troops back.
DK: Troops back. Yeah. That was Operation Dodge, I think, wasn’t it? Bringing the army —
RB: Yeah.
DK: Back from Italy. And then that’s it. So, that was your last operation here. Well, not operation. Your last flight I should say. 28th August 1945. So, did —
RB: We had, that was one of the few occasions when we had any problem with the aircraft. The wireless operator had smoke coming from his area.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And we thought we were going to have two or three days in Pomigliano.
DK: Right.
RB: But they did the dirty on us and got it ready [laughs]
DK: Would you have liked to have stayed a bit longer then?
RB: Yeah. Well, we went to [pause] because we were near Sorrento.
DK: Right.
RB: And we hitchhiked to a junction. And then we got another hitch to Sorrento. We had a meal there. And I, we had, we didn’t see a lot of Sorrento but the main thing there’s no sand there. It’s as a result of the Vesuvius eruption.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
RB: And there was all dust really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: But —
DK: So that was on, that was on the 27th of July 1945.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And you come back from Italy then with twenty.
RB: Twenty persons.
DK: Twenty passengers. People on board.
RB: Ex-soldiers.
DK: So, they were soldiers.
RB: Yes.
DK: Coming back from Italy. Yeah.
RB: And I was with another pilot.
DK: Oh right. Yeah. So, that’s Flight Lieutenant Lundy. So had Flint left by this point then? Because you did the Exodus —
RB: Yes.
DK: Once with Flint there.
RB: Yes.
DK: But the Dodge flights were with Lundy.
RB: I’m just looking to see the other pilots we were with. There was one. That was another one.
DK: So you’ve got Groves. Flying Officer Syd Groves, Flying Officer Wells and Flying Officer Boyle.
RB: Boyle.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So it’s eighteen operations.
RB: I think the rest were — there was Flying Officer Wells.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Another. Another officer there.
DK: Arden. Yeah. So you flew with a number of different pilots.
RB: That’s right, yes.
DK: But did you have the same crew and just a different pilot or were they –
RB: Sorry?
DK: Did you have the same crew and a different pilot?
RB: That was at the beginning.
DK: Right.
RB: We did the twelve. Well, yeah the twelve operations with our own skipper.
DK: Right.
RB: And then the rest were these.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: Odd ones.
DK: So, the first twelve were with Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: And then the other six with various other pilots.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Were you, were you ever attacked by German fighters at all?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Were you ever attacked by German fighters?
RB: No. The only time when we took evasion action we weren’t sure. and we had the rear gunner — he gave a warning and we did a corkscrew. But apart from that — no.
DK: And can, can you recall the aircraft being hit by flak at all?
RB: Well, as I say there was that one when the bomb aimer got hit. And I myself because, because we had the blip. The [pause] on the windows we had the, where you could look out and see down.
DK: The blister.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And I was looking out at, we had some flak coming up and I felt a little something going, graze the head. But that was the nearest I had to anything to do with the flak.
DK: So you got hit by a little piece then.
RB: Just a little bit. Yeah. So I was dead lucky.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But after all it was all dead lucky really. I knew you had the — you were given a course in the briefing and you had to turn at certain points etcetera. And some pilots, they get ahead of time so they wanted to lose it and they’d be flying across the stream. No lights at all.
DK: No.
RB: So whether anybody got put down by a crash or —
DK: A collision.
RB: Collision. I don’t know. But it could have happened.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we had another. The aircraft had returned from the, from an operation and they still had their bombs on board. And the ground crew were putting this aircraft to bed and something happened. Up it went and the ground crew were killed. So you never knew from the time you took off ‘til the time you got back to bed.
DK: So, that happened at Skellingthorpe, did it?
RB: That’s right.
DK: The aircraft exploded.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And a number of the ground crew killed.
RB: That was the ground crew. Yeah.
DK: So how do, how do you look back in your time in the RAF now then?
RB: Well, it was certainly interesting. But I don’t think bombing as such is the beginning and end of a war. And there’s Johnny Johnson, the bomb aimer, he got the MBE or OBE.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I thought myself because I’d had the clasp for Bomber Command and I thought that was a better idea because that was for operations.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I always thought that the MBE and all those Birthday Honours were for services to civil life and of course I had reservations about —because things weren’t accurate. There were probably innocent people getting killed.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And, and there was an aspect that, well you got on with the job. You couldn’t do anything about that but at the same time I didn’t feel it was quite right. And having seen some of the bombing in London when we were living there and some of our friends got bombed. Nothing to do with the war. So from that aspect I’m not sure about bombing at all.
DK: No.
RB: But there we go. It was a job they wanted done.
DK: Yeah.
RB: You did it.
DK: So what was your career? Did you leave the RAF at that point then or —
RB: Yeah. I left. I only did four years. The two years of the war. That’s 1943 to ’45. And then I had a spell at Hereford. And then there was an admin course. And then I got posted to West Africa. And I was there for a year.
DK: Right.
RB: And when I came back the — that was demob time.
DK: And what, what was your career after that? What did you do?
RB: I’ve been a draughtsman for most of the time.
DK: Oh right.
RB: On the electrical side. I joined what was [Bridge Johnson Hewstone?] when I came back. No. I went to Napier’s first of all. And I was doing drawings for design etcetera. And it was then I went to Bridge Johnson Hewstone because Napier’s were getting rid of a few people.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then I was with [pause] they, they moved to North London. And then they closed that down. They moved up to Blackpool.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I was redundant then. I went to an electrical. Honeywell Electrics.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we were living in Hertfordshire at the time. And the [pause] then I got a job at Luton Airport with Hunting Aircraft.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And then they moved. So, and I finished up with the, an Italian firm Snamprogetti on, they were petrol installations.
DK: Right.
RB: And I was there and that was the finish of work in ‘87.
DK: So, just going back a little bit now if I may. I asked you about the Stirling.
RB: Yes.
DK: And what it was like to fly. What was the Lancaster like to fly?
RB: It was, I suppose one would say it almost flew itself. It wasn’t a comfortable position as far as the engineer was concerned but —
DK: Yes. As a flight engineer did you used to sit down or were you standing up?
RB: Yeah. We had a seat.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That you could fold up from the side.
DK: Right.
RB: You sat beside the —
DK: Pilot.
RB: The pilot yes. And you had the undercarriage and throttles which we helped with the take off.
DK: So, so when the pilot’s taking off then you’re helping with the throttles.
RB: Yes.
DK: And would you raise the undercarriage when you were up or would he do that?
RB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: You’d do that?
RB: As far as the throttles were concerned the pilot did the initial take-off thing, but you followed him up and when he got to the stage he was wanting full blast then you finished it through to the end.
DK: Right.
RB: And after that he, apart from synchronising the engines the pilot had control.
DK: Control. So on your right then you’ve got all the various dials.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: And what are those dials telling you then? Are they —
RB: That was fuel contents. I forget what the rest did. That was the main thing that we were interested in.
DK: So your job is always to make sure you’ve got enough fuel to get back.
RB: Yes. Because you had to transfer fuel through from one tank to another at one stage.
DK: Right. And what about landing though, did you help the pilot land at all? Or —
RB: With the flaps. He’d call for the flaps and you’d operate that one. But apart from that the pilot was in control.
DK: Yeah. So, were your pilots very good then? Were they? Mostly?
RB: Well, some took a few chances I think [laughs] There was one, whether he actually did it or not they reckoned he did the loop the loop in the Lancaster but I take that with a bit of salt.
DK: You mentioned just before I put the recording on about somebody who was smoking.
RB: Yes. But that was the navigator but —
DK: Because you’re not allowed to smoke on the aircraft are you?
RB: Well, certainly not with our skipper.
DK: No.
RB: Well, it was so silly really. I mean, you had this main spar and the navigator sat just forward of it.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And there was a valve. So if you had a leakage goodness knows what would happen.
DK: Oh right. So the pilot smelled the smoke then did he?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Did he tell him off?
RB: Yes. And he was, he was another flight lieutenant.
DK: But I am correct in saying that regardless of rank the pilot is always in charge isn’t he?
RB: Well, yes. As far as we were concerned. Yes.
DK: Yeah. So you might have other crew that outranks him but the pilot’s still in charge.
RB: Could be. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I don’t think it happened very often.
DK: So you were quite pleased with Flint then. You thought he was a good —
RB: Sorry?
DK: You thought that Flint — Flint was a good pilot.
RB: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: I know who you mean. He’s the holder of the George Cross isn’t he?
RB: Sorry?
DK: He’s got the George Cross.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. I only realised that [pause] I was looking at an Antiques Roadshow I think it was and they were at Lincoln Cathedral. And he was there with the, with these medals that he’d got.
DK: Oh right. So did you stay in touch with the crew after the war?
RB: No. The only, I did at one time. They, they were doing a Memorial at Skellingthorpe.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I offered help but they didn’t take it up. And when they had the actual ceremony I went up there but I didn’t get involved in —
DK: Right.
RB: In anything, and I met the squadron navigator who had been on 61 Squadron as well as 50. And I saw the skipper. He was marching up with the crowd to a meal or something and I waved to him [laughs]
DK: That was —
RB: That was the only time that I actually saw him to speak to.
DK: So you did — that’s Flint you waved to.
RB: That was Flint. Yeah.
DK: Did he wave back?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Oh.
RB: Well, he shouted out, ‘Are you coming up for — ’
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I wasn’t sure whether I was going to make it or not.
DK: No.
RB: But the only other time I saw him, when they did the Memorial in Green Park in London.
DK: Right.
RB: I went up to that.
DK: Right.
RB: And it was quite a hot day and —
DK: Yeah. I was there.
RB: Were you?
DK: Yeah.
RB: And because I was a bit daft really. I didn’t have any hat or anything. And I I wasn’t feeling all that well and in the end so I didn’t get a chance to speak to him but —
DK: That was a shame.
RB: But he was in a invalid chair. A bit hunched up then. And I think it was either that year or the following year that he died. So I didn’t get in to speak to anybody after that.
DK: No. What did you think of the Memorial at Green Park?
RB: Well, it’s quite impressive.
DK: Are you pleased Bomber Command are being recognised now after all these years?
RB: Well, yes. It’s fair enough. I mean fifty five thousand people gone. And —
DK: But obviously there’s the two big Memorials now. There’s the Green Park one.
RB: Sorry?
DK: There’s two Memorials now. There’s Green Park and the new one in Lincoln.
RB: And the one in Lincoln. Yes. Yes. The one, the one I saw in Lincoln my friends were going up to Leeds and I said , ‘Would you give me a lift to somewhere near Lincoln and leave me there and you go on up.’ And they said, ‘No. We’re not going to do that. And they went up to the actual site.
DK: Oh right.
RB: Of course it wasn’t open to the public.
DK: Right. You saw it close up though did you?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Well, it stands right out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: There’s a hotel nearby which —
DK: So, you haven’t actually been yet then to see it close up.
RB: No.
DK: Oh. I’ll have to try and arrange something then.
RB: Because they are running the tours for them.
DK: Running the tours.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: I might do that at some stage.
DK: Yeah. I’ll have a word with them when I get back. Because obviously we’ve got the main opening in April so hopefully you can come along to that.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Oh, ok then. I think that’s that’s everything. That’s been very interesting.
RB: No exciting moments.
DK: Trust me it’s all very exciting. I always like the logbooks. How do feel looking back at this thinking that was you?
RB: Sorry?
DK: How do you feel looking back in this logbook thinking that was, that was you? You did that.
RB: I’m sorry?
DK: How do you look feel looking in the logbook knowing that you did that?
RB: Well, I’m glad I did it. If only we sort of remember all the people who I’ve known and lost. And after all you’d have surviving these is a matter, as I say of luck. You can be on the last flight. Gone. Or you can come into the squadron, you do your training, go on the first flight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Never got to know them.
DK: Yeah. Can I just —
RB: But I may have got some photos of the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
[pause]
RB: Some misguided person sent me that book [laughs]
DK: For the recording it’s, “How To Fly a Second World War Heavy Bomber.”
RB: [laughs] It covers the Stirling, Halifax and —
DK: Yeah. As if you didn’t know.
[pause]
RB: Now, there’s the training flights.
DK: Right. Ok. You’ve got a photo here. It’s, so it’s A flight, 4 Squadron.
RB: That was at Torquay.
DK: Number 21 ITW.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Torquay.
[pause]
DK: Oh, there you are. RG Barnes.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re one two three four five six seven. One two three four five six seven. Is that you there?
RB: That’s it. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh right. Ok.
RB: That’s the crew.
DK: That is. Yeah.
RB: That’s skipper.
DK: So that’s, that’s your Lancaster there.
RB: That’s right. Near
DK: That’s T.
RB: Well, we flew in different aircraft all the time. There’s no one aircraft allocated.
DK: Because 50 Squadron’s codes were VN, weren’t they?
RB: Sorry?
DK: 50 Squadron’s code were VN.
RB: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh wow.
RB: That’s another one.
DK: [unclear] That one. LN29. Oh, they’re great these photos are. So, can you, can you name the crew here?
RB: That’s the bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer.
RB: Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Navigator — Macleod. That’s me.
DK: Right.
RB: Skipper.
DK: So, that’s, that’s Flint.
RB: Flint. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs. That’s Johnson. And I still can’t remember the bomb aimer’s name.
DK: Or was that the wireless operator?
RB: Wireless operator.
DK: Ok.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Right. I know the [pause] Yeah. That’s, that’s T as well isn’t it? The reason I mention this is you know the Royal Air Force’s Lancaster that’s still flying?
RB: Yes.
DK: Well, they’ve painted it in new codes as 50 Squadron’s VN T. So, I think they’ve put it in the markings of your old aircraft.
RB: Oh.
DK: VN T. I’ll ask them.
RB: The only time I’ve had a [pause] we had a neighbour where I was living in, before coming here and he was an engineering NCO at Abingdon. And they were renovating a Lancaster there.
DK: Yeah. It would be the same one.
RB: So, and he said, ‘Would you like to come over and have a look?’ So —
DK: Did you go on board?
RB: [laughs] Yes.
DK: Right. What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: That brought back memories.
DK: Ok. I’ll turn this off now. I think we’ve said enough but thanks very much for your time on that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Barnes. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnesR170803, PBarnesR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:49:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Barnes was working in a Reserved Occupation and so knew the only way he could join the RAF was to volunteer for aircrew. Before he volunteered he was also a member of the ARP and Home Guard. Robert trained as a flight engineer and was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. Robert’s pilot was James Flint DFC GM DFM who became the Commanding Officer of 50 Squadron.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Merseburg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
50 Squadron
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Torquay
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9239/PBarnesR1701.2.jpg
3e4f8d44c9f6217fb8174f979017bf4d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9239/ABarnesR170927.2.mp3
484e2612719386c68902aaedf879896d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barnes, Robert
R Barnes
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Robert Barnes (b. 1923) He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
2 Interviews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barnes, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh, the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bob Barnes for the second time at his home on the 27th of September 2017. I’ll just put that down there. When we had a chat a couple of weeks ago —
RB: Yes.
DK: You mentioned a story that as flight engineer you touched some controls and the aircraft went down.
RB: No. I changed, changed the fuel.
DK: Right. Can you remember where you were flying to or from?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Can you remember where you were flying to or from?
RB: Yeah. It was a Paris. A French —
DK: One of the French targets.
RB: A French destination.
[pause – pages turning]
RB: It was a daylight trip.
DK: A daylight trip. Right. Would it have been around the time of D-Day?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Would it have been around the time of D-Day? Or soon afterwards?
RB: No. I’m not sure of that. Not that one [pause – pages turning] Not those [pause – pages turning] It could be that one.
DK: And where was that to? Was that to Reims?
RB: Yes.
DK: Reims.
RB: Versailles. It might be. It could be that one.
DK: So, this is the airfield there.
RB: Yes.
DK: St Cry.
RB: Versailles.
DK: Versailles. So that’s St Cry. C R Y. And that was on the 25th of July. And so you’re flight engineer. The pilot’s Flight Lieutenant Flint again.
RB: Yes.
DK: And you’re in aircraft VN J. So, it says in your logbook here you had one four thousand pound bomb, one, one thousand pound bomb and fourteen five hundred pound bombs. And a good result. St Cry. Cry airfield. C R Y. So, can you remember exactly what happened?
RB: Well, all I did was to change. You have to change over tanks.
DK: Right.
RB: And —
DK: Fuel tanks.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I did that and before I knew it we were going down [laughs] And I I just took a chance and put, tried, got it back again because the engine was just windmilling for a few seconds.
DK: So, had the engines been starved of fuel? Is that what happened?
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So what did the pilot do as you were —
RB: Well, he [laughs]
DK: Did he panic a bit?
RB: I can’t describe what he thought.
DK: No.
RB: Or what he did but he got us back.
DK: Right.
RB: On level flight.
DK: Right. And what happened at the time? Did the squadron fly over the top of you then?
RB: Yeah. The squadron were, we were leading and then the squadron went over.
DK: Over the top of you.
RB: Above us. The skipper told one of the chaps to take over.
DK: Right. As, as, as the leader.
RB: Sorry?
DK: Told one of the other —
RB: The pilot. Yes.
DK: To be the leader.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So as you were diving down what, what happened then?
RB: Well, we just, we just dropped down. Until the skipper got it back on level flight.
DK: Right.
RB: It was only a matter of — what? Seconds really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Were you, were you quite frightened at the time or —
RB: No. We were just leading. Going over the, on track.
DK: Yeah. And did Flight Lieutenant Flint ever mention it afterwards? Did he say anything?
RB: Well, he just asked me if the petrol pump was operating and as far as I remembered it, it was.
DK: Yeah.
RB: So I never found out why.
DK: Why the aircraft dropped.
RB: Why the fuel didn’t, didn’t pick up in the — didn’t transfer.
DK: Right. So, when you went to transfer the fuel it should have gone from one tank to another and the engine shouldn’t have stopped. Been starved of fuel.
RB: Well, it shouldn’t have done but it did [laughs]
DK: It did. So you never found out what the problem was then.
RB: No.
DK: No.
RB: No.
DK: No.
RB: And recently I had a friend of mine, he sent me a book of how to fly a World War Two bomber and this covered the Stirling, Halifax and Lancaster. They’re very similar to the engineer’s —
DK: Yeah.
RB: Manual. But I’m, I’ve come to the conclusion if you read all the things that you should do when you’ve got plenty of time in a situation like that —
DK: Yeah. You act on —
RB: Just went on instinct really.
DK: Instinct. Yeah. So this you think was on July the 25th
RB: Yes. I’m almost certain it was that one.
DK: Over Versailles. Yeah. And that’s St Cry Airfield. St C Y R. Cry Airfield. And your stores were, as I say the target indicators, one four thousand pounder, one one thousand pounder and fourteen five hundred pound bombs. So after you dropped down did you go around again to hit the target?
RB: No. This was enroute.
DK: Oh right. Ok. It wasn’t actually over the target.
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So you managed to regain height and then —
RB: Yeah.
DK: Then bomb the target.
RB: Yeah. Not a good situation to be in but we got away with it.
DK: Got away with it. Right. Ok, that’s great. I’ll end that there. That’s as I say I missed that last time. I just wanted to confirm the, confirm the story. Thanks. Thanks for that Bob.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Barnes. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnesR170927, PBarnesR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:07:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Barnes, as flight engineer had to deal with an emergency on one flight when during the process of changing the fuel tanks the aircraft went into a steep dive.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France--Saint-Cyr-l'École
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07-25
50 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
RAF Skellingthorpe
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/705/9285/PBegbieD1701.2.jpg
18a01cc7d4dd62e0e87065d6139e966d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/705/9285/ABegbieD170113.2.mp3
c8433c7d5b6db55d084acc1c6d2fe5e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Begbie, Doug
D Begbie
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Doug Begbie. He flew operations as an air gunner with 76 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Begbie, D
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I'll just introduce myself. It’s David Kavanagh from the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Doug Begbie on the 13th of January 2017. I'll just put that down there and if I keep looking over I'm not being rude. I'm just making sure the tape's still working.
DB: Okay.
DK: You mentioned there that you used to live in Lincoln. Were you born in Lincoln?
DB: No. I was born at Cranwell.
DK: Oh, right. Okay.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And what were you doing immediately before the war?
DB: Before the war?
DK: Yeah.
DB: Well, I was an apprentice chef with my dad.
DK: Okay. And what was your, did your dad have a business then as a —
DB: No. He worked at Cranwell as a civilian chef.
DK: Oh. Actually in the RAF.
DB: Yeah. Catering for the officers.
DK: Okay. So, next question would be then was that the reason that you wanted to join the RAF?
DB: I don't know. Yeah. I've tried to work that one out but what I think perhaps I could, as a baby I could hear aircraft. That must have had some effect on me.
DK: So what year are we talking about then that you first heard the sound of aeroplanes?
DB: Yeah.
DK: In the 1920s would this have been? The 30s?
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, what, can you remember what year you actually joined the RAF?
DB: When I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Must have been 1943, I think. About October.
DK: Okay and were you selected then for Bomber Command at that point?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Okay. And so what was your, your aircrew role then? What did you actually do?
DB: I was a tail gunner.
DK: Okay. And can you remember how your training went? What sort of training did you have before you joined a squadron?
DB: No.
DK: No. Okay. And can you remember which squadron you were with?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: Can you remember which squadrons you were with?
DB: 76.
DK: Right. And flying what type of aircraft?
DB: Yeah.
DK: The Halifax was it?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Okay. And can, can you remember anything specific about the operations you did?
DB: Well, I did thirty two.
DK: Right.
DB: Mostly night raids. Some were daylight
DK: And as a tail gunner what was your job to actually do?
DB: Well, to protect the rear of the aircraft.
DK: Right.
DB: We used to have an evasive action.
DK: Okay.
DB: Which was to corkscrew into the attacking fighter. So because being at the tail end you have to rethink the direction you were flying.
DK: Right. Because you're facing the wrong way.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, you have to say corkscrew starboard or corkscrew port.
DK: Right. So how many times were you attached by enemy aircraft?
DB: How many?
DK: How many times were you attacked by enemy aircraft?
DB: Only a couple of times
DK: So did you actually fire your guns at them?
DK: Only once.
DK: Okay. And can can you tell us a little bit about that?
DB: Well, it was one of their new fighters that they had. A jet-propelled thing. Rocket propelled.
DK: Really?
DB: And both the mid-upper gunner and I fired at it and it exploded.
DK: And, and were you credited with that?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: Were you credited with having shot that down?
DB: I don't know what happened.
DK: Right.
DB: No.
DK: So, what, it must have been a bit of a strange thing to see. A rocket-powered aircraft.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, what was your thoughts as you saw it coming towards you?
DB: Well, we [pause] I'm just trying to think. We, we hadn't, we hadn’t been reported anything like that.
DK: Right.
DB: But we've got some idea that they were trying these things out. So —
DK: So did it come as a bit of a shock to you to suddenly see this rocket powered —
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aircraft.
DB: So we just fired at it and it blew up.
DK: Okay. So I'll finish here now but looking back on your time in Bomber Command how do you feel about it now?
DB: How do I feel about it now? Since that time I've become a Christian.
DK: Okay.
DB: So I consider war is a waste of time. Killing people. We must negotiate things. Talk to people about things.
DK: I think you're right there. Okay. Well, I know you’re going to have a busy day so we can stop it there. But if I can ever come back and speak to you again that would be marvellous.
DB: Okay.
DK: Okay. We'll stop it there. Thank you.
DB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Doug Begbie
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABegbieD170113, PBegbieD1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:06:04 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Doug Begbie was an apprentice chef before he volunteered for the RAF. He trained as a rear gunner and was posted to 76 Squadron. He shot down what sounds like an Me 163.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Halifax
Me 163
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/733/9288/PCarswellA1702.1.jpg
6a021403a718f2d9ad8a17280e5548de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/733/9288/ACarswellA170614.1.mp3
ea881ccab4c5a417073323e2bfde14f7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carswell, Andrew
A Carswell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Andrew Carswell AFC (b. 1923). He flew operations as a pilot with 9 Squadron but was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Carswell, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Ok. So, I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Andy Carswell on the 14th of June, I always get the dates wrong. 2017.
AC: 13th. Isn’t it March the 13th?
DC: 14th.
DK: Oh, it’s the 14th . Yeah.
AC: 14th eh?
DK: 14th. 14th of June 2017 at his home in Toronto. I’ll just make sure that I said Toronto. Make sure everybody knows I’m here. So, if I just put that there.
AC: Now, you have the address of the home in Toronto and all that.
DK: Yeah. I’ve got all the address. Yeah.
AC: That’s good.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m not being rude I’m just making sure it’s working. There’s been a couple of occasions when I’ve been beaten by the technology when the battery has just stopped or something.
AC: I see.
DK: Right. Yeah. I think we’re ok.
AC: Do I have to speak any louder than normal or —
DK: No. Just, just speak normally. Just sound like that.
AC: That’s good. That’s good.
DK: Firstly, what I wanted to ask you was what were you doing immediately before the war started?
AC: Ok. I was going to high school. I was, immediately before the war started I guess I would be about sixteen years old or so. And just before my eighteenth birthday the principal of the high school I was going to — I was in Grade 12 and in those days you needed twelve grades in order to graduate in to university.
DK: Right.
AC: But they changed it. The timing on the thing so that you had to have thirteen grades. So, I was at the end of my twelfth grade. I was just coming up to eighteen years old and the principal, in one of his lectures said, ‘Anybody who wants to do war work can get off early.’ And so of course I stuck my hand up and said, ‘Yes, I want to do war work.’ And so I got off early and the first thing I did was I went downtown to the RCAF Recruiting Unit.
DK: Right.
AC: On my eighteen birthday. I was eighteen years old and I walked in there and they said, ‘What do you want?’ I said, ‘I want to join the Air Force.’ They said, ‘Oh. What do you want to be?’ And of course everybody watched the movies. I said, ‘I want to be a pilot.’ So they said, ‘Ok.’ And they put me in and I went to, to the local unit in the Toronto International Exhibition there and, at Upper Avenue Road, and they sent me to, to Belleville. They had taken a school for the deaf and dumb and kicked everybody out.
DK: Right.
AC: And I don’t know what they did with them. And they put us in there and some of us were sort of dumb too [laughs] but anyway we were selected there on the basis of various tests to be pilots, air gunners, or navigators.
DK: Right.
AC: And you had to be smart to be a navigator. And you had to, you had to be, I guess a good shot to be an air gunner so I was trained as a pilot. So, they selected me as a pilot and they sent me to, right off the bat to what’s the name of the place?
DC: Goderich.
AC: Goderich. Yeah. A little town on the Lake Huron and where there was a civil airport operating and there were volunteer instructors at that time. And there I soloed. Learned to fly an aeroplane. And then they sent me a couple of hundred miles away. Down to a place called Bradford which is also in Ontario. And they, they were flying Avro Ansons.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The very first order of Avro Ansons where you had to crank the undercarriage up and down by hand. And so I graduated from there as a pilot and I got to wear a pair of wings and I was a sergeant pilot.
DK: Did you, did you find learning to fly easy? Is it something that came naturally to you?
AC: Oh yes. It was very easy for me because I had spent most of my time outdoors. I was in the Boys Scouts.
DK: Right.
AC: And I did a lot of hiking and that kind of thing. And so they gave me a couple of weeks leave and then they sent me to England. Here I was, still just a little over eighteen by then I guess. And, and in England I went to Bournemouth where all the Canadians went.
DK: Just, just going back a bit how did you come over to England? Were you on one of the —
AC: On a ship. A boat.
DK: Right. Yeah.
AC: I forget the name of it. It was a — had normally been a freighter, I think.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And I was not too, not too — my memory is kind of clogged there with all the other things that are in it. But anyhow I went over by ship, you know. Evading the German submarines and so forth.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And eventually we ended up in Bournemouth. And in Bournemouth they sent me to, on more training. And I took three or four different courses on different kinds of aircraft. Getting larger, larger and larger from the smallest multi-engine aircraft to, to things like the DC3 and whatnot. And finally they put me on the Lincoln. Which was the brother of the Lancaster but it had different engines in it and it would only fly on one engine if one engine quit.
DK: Was that the Manchester?
AC: The Manchester. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: They put me on the Manchester.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And nobody liked the Manchester because they knew that if one engine quit the other one wasn’t enough to keep it going.
DK: Right.
AC: So, anyway and then they graduated me up to the Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And I spent several weeks or a month or two flying the Lancaster and then they sent me up to number 9 Squadron.
DK: What did, what did you think of the Lancaster as an aircraft? Was it —
AC: Oh, great. The Lancaster itself was a very good aircraft and it was as easy to fly as the Avro Anson or any of the other aircraft. It wasn’t very cosy inside like the American aircraft. The Americans had lots of nice cushions in their front seats [laughs] And all kinds of good lighting and whatnot. And the Lancaster was just basically the controls that you needed and the — that was, that was basically all there was. You had your rudders. And there was no, no engine activated controls, you know. Everything was done.
DK: Manually.
AC: By force of —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: Force of habit.
DK: Had you, had you joined up with your crew at this point?
AC: No. No.
DK: Oh. Right then.
AC: They sent me to number 9 Squadron. And then they had a [pause] I’ve been trying to — that’s a good question. I’m trying to remember where they had the — I think we had the crew selection before I got to 9 Squadron.
DK: Right.
AC: And then people would go around saying, ‘Look. I’m a navigator. Do you want a navigator?’
DK: Was that then —
AC: ‘I’m a rear gunner,’ and all that.
DK: Right.
AC: So, anyway that was supposed to be my selection but I didn’t know any of the other people involved. I just picked people who looked like nice fellows [laughs] and we ended up with a crew of seven or so.
DK: And was the rest of your crew, were they Canadian or were they British?
AC: They were a mixture. The flight engineer was Scottish.
DK: Right.
AC: Jock Martin his name was and —
DC: Paddy Hipson.
AC: Paddy Hipson was Irish. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And what else have I got? I had a couple of English guys. My wife’s got a better memory than I have. She, she, we’ve been married seventy years and she can still remember every bad thing I ever did [laughs]
DC: There was three Canadians besides you.
AC: Who, who were they? Three Canadian besides me eh?
DC: [unclear] The fellow that froze to death.
AC: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DC: And —
AC: That was my navigator.
DC: And then there was —
AC: That navigator was a Canadian and he was just —
DC: Claude Clemens.
AC: Claude Clemens was a Canadian. He was a rear gunner. Yeah.
DC: West Ontario.
AC: That’s right.
DK: Was that — I’ve got your crew here as yourself. Sergeant Martin.
AC: Martin. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: That’s Scottish.
DC: Martin.
DK: Scottish. And what was he then?
AC: He was the flight engineer.
DK: Flight engineer. Galbraith. Galbraith.
AC: Galbraith. Yeah.
DC: He’s the one that froze to death.
AC: Yeah. Galbraith was the navigator. He was a Canadian.
DK: He was the navigator. Hipson?
AC: Harry Hipson was English.
DC: Irish.
DK: English. Irish?
AC: Scottish.
DK: He was Scottish.
AC: Scottish. And what was he then? The wireless operator?
AC: Hipson [pause] Oh, I know. He was the, not the — bombardier.
DK: Ah bombardier. Yeah. And then Sergeant Phillips.
AC: Sergeant Phillips.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Sergeant Phillips.
DC: Eddy Phillips.
AC: Eddy Phillips.
DC: The one that got a leg broken on the march.
AC: Yeah. That was Eddy Phillips was, I’m glad you’re here Dot to remind me of these things. Eddy Phillips was a part of our crew and he broke his leg after we landed.
DK: Right.
AC: And he moved about in different hospitals. I never saw him again.
DK: Oh right.
AC: But he didn’t die. He got home ok apparently.
DC: What did he do in the aircraft?
AC: Eddie Phillips was a mid-upper gunner.
DK: Air gunner.
AC: I think that’s what he was.
DK: And I’ve got Sergeant De Silva.
AC: De Silva. Yeah.
DC: English fellow.
AC: Oh. He was a mid-upper gunner. Yeah. Sergeant De Silva.
DC: De Silva. Yes.
AC: De Silva. And —
DC: His parachute didn’t open.
AC: And he was killed because his parachute didn’t open.
DK: Right.
AC: With him improperly loaded up into the aircraft, I guess.
DK: And then Sergeant Clemens, I think it says.
AC: Claude.
DC: Yes.
AC: Claude Clemens was the rear gunner. Yeah.
DK: He was the rear gunner. Ok.
AC: And he was a Canadian.
DK: Right. Ok.
AC: He just died a while ago.
DK: Ok.
AC: Big talker.
DC: Twelve years ago.
AC: I’m surprised that they’re still sending people out because I’m one of the youngest of the whole lot and I’m ninety four and Dorothy is ninety five. We’ve been married seventy years.
DK: Years. Well, congratulations.
AC: She remembers every year of it [laughs] Sometimes that’s not a good thing.
DK: Don’t ask me how long I’ve been married. Twenty two years. There you are.
AC: Twenty two years eh. Well, there you go.
Other: We’ve got a long way to go.
DK: [unclear]
AC: Anyway, so that’s, that’s how we got crewed up.
DK: Right. So, you were —
AC: As you know, that they normally the captain of the aircraft was normally commissioned and he was —
DK: Yeah.
AC: Started off as flying officer and then went to flight lieutenant and so forth. Well, on my first trip I was a sergeant pilot. I was the only pilot on board a Lancaster and I was only a sergeant. And there was no other, no other officers in the crew of course.
DK: Right.
AC: And they sent me on a couple of trips with other people just to see how I did and I would take the flight engineer’s spot because they only had one pilot in those aeroplanes. And then they put me on operations fairly shortly after that. And the first trip was fairly normal, I think.
DK: Can you remember where that was too?
AC: To, to Berlin.
DK: So, your first trip was to Berlin.
AC: And the second trip was to Berlin.
DK: Right.
AC: And then they stopped it. They lost so many aircraft that they stopped it for a while. They had aircraft going down all over the place. In fact when we were shot down we were about half way between [pause] what’s the name of that little town? I can’t remember now.
DC: Well, John took you on that trip.
AC: Yeah.
DC: To retrace your steps.
AC: Yeah. I’m just thinking yeah. But anyway, it was about half way between the [pause]
DC: Do you have any? You can look.
No. No. I don’t have any notes.
DC: Yeah.
AC: We weren’t supposed to take notes.
DC: We went to the wrong place when we were in Germany.
AC: Yeah. We went down to that town.
DC: You sat opposite.
AC: Where I got shot down.
DK: So, so this was the fourth operation then was it? You were shot down.
AC: Yeah.
DK: Can, can you say a little about what actually happened on that particular operation?
AC: Well, we were, we were at twenty thousand feet or so and a, and a barrage of flak came up around us and the next thing I noticed the navigator was pointing at the right hand engine. And the right hand engine was on fire and the fire was creeping towards the gas tanks. It still had a thousand gallons or more gasoline in them. So, I, I gave the order to bale out and so the rear gunner baled out, and the mid-upper gunner baled out and the mid-upper gunner’s parachute didn’t open as you know. The rear gunner, he only died a few years ago. And the rest of the crew all got out but my navigator who had recently been married and he was so anxious to get home he didn’t care what was wrong with the aeroplane. He kept saying, ‘You should go. Take — ’ such and such a course. And so we had a bit of an argument and I said, ‘If you don’t go out I’ll go out ahead of you because we’re going straight down.’ The aeroplane was on fire by then. And so he finally went out and I went out and that was it. And then I found myself in a tree and I [pause] that’s all in that book anyway, I think.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And I decided I’d walk towards Switzerland [laughs] which was a stupid idea. But I was walking pretty well all night and eventually I realised that I had two choices. Either give myself up or just hide in the woods until I froze to death. And I didn’t think that was a very good thing to do so I walked a little farther and I saw a farmhouse in the distance, down a side road. And I went down there and I knocked on the door of the farmhouse. Some woman opened a, opened a window up above and yelled something at me. And I just said, ‘It’s pretty cold out here. Let me in.’ [laughs] The next thing I know I hear is a crunching noise in the side driveway and this little old guy with a gun almost as big as himself came out, pointed it at me. And I said, ‘Don’t shoot.’ And then the wife came out and yelled something at him. And they decided to take me in. And I went into their living room and they had a Chesterfield about that size there and they told me to sit down there. And I sat down there and fell asleep. When I woke up again there was a great crowd of people wandering around and looking at me. And a little boy was looking at my arm here. It said Canada on it. He said, ‘Oh, Canada.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And then everybody sort of thought that I understood German. Which I didn’t. And eventually a car pulled up with a couple of Nazi soldiers in it and they made sure that I didn’t have a weapon on me. And then they put me on the car. They took me down to the town hall which was — oh it’s in that book there anyway.
DK: That’s all right. Christine, can you have a look through there and see if you can find out the town he parachuted into? Just see if you can find it.
AC: I was trying to think of the name. I had a beer there too. Not after I got shot down but after.
DK: Yeah. When you went back.
AC: When I went back with me wife.
DK: You didn’t get a beer the day you were shot down then.
DC: He went back with John.
DK: Yeah.
DC: Our son took Andy back.
Oh yeah. That’s right. You weren’t with me on that one were you?
DC: And John has a very very good memory [unclear]
CK: Was it Zerbst?
AC: Pardon?
CK: Zerbst Town Hall. Z E R B S T.
AC: Zerbst.
CK: Zerbst.
AC: Yeah. Z E R B S T. Zerbst.
DK: Yeah.
AC: We were quite close to there when we got shot down. And so, I was, I was kept in a private room with a young fellow with a gun sitting there. And finally he went out to get something to eat and he came back and said something to me and he offered me some food too. So, he gave me something to eat. I had a sandwich along with him. And then I stayed there for a day. And the next day a bunch of soldiers came in and marched me out into the parade square where they had a crowd of people around. And they were all looking at this strange guy that had just got shot down nearby. And from there we went to a Luftwaffe station where they put us all in cells and various people came in and interviewed us and whatnot. And they were fairly decent, you know about the whole thing. And after that they put us all together except for the dead people. They couldn’t find the navigator. They didn’t know where he was. And neither did I. I suspected he was hiding in the woods, you know. Which would be not a very smart thing to do in sub-zero temperatures. But so they eventually found him. He’s buried near Berlin right now.
DK: Right.
AC: And —
DK: So, he had frozen to death then.
AC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: He just stayed out until he froze to death. It wasn’t a very smart thing to do either. But he was so much in love with this woman he’d just married that he figured he could get home. Sad eh? So, anyway that was, that was the beginning of my two years and three months in a POW camp. And they moved me to a place called Lamsdorf.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The rest of the crew was there and I spent the next [pause] And what did I do there? I figured I should do something useful so I escaped a couple of times and I got caught a couple of times. Let’s see. Three times I escaped, I think. Two. Must be. You’re right, Dot. Two times I escaped. Lucky I’ve got somebody to correct me. So, I escaped twice. I got caught twice. I spent time in three different prisons.
DK: ‘Cause reading your book what you seem to have done is exchange places with an army —
AC: Oh yeah.
DK: Was that how it was?
AC: Swapped over. Yeah. That was the, the theory that the people running the place you know. The RAF people decided that that was the way to go. We didn’t dig tunnels or anything like that. We swapped over. And I swapped over with a couple of different fellows.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And they went up into my barracks and wore my uniform. And I went down into their barracks and waited for my name to be called. My fake name. And then I got marched out with the rest of the people and —
DK: And the Germans never cottoned on to this then. That this was what was going on.
AC: Oh, I think they, they suspected. But I mean to them a POW was a POW. You know, they all looked the same.
DK: Yeah. Because I was very surprised when, when you were captured you were still that army person.
AC: That’s right.
DK: And even they took you back they still didn’t realise that you were —
AC: That’s right.
DK: Air Force.
AC: That’s right.
[background noise]
DK: Can, can I just stop?
[recording paused]
AC: I didn’t have much of a record as a bomber pilot.
DK: Yeah.
AC: I got shot down on my second trip really as captain. And it was all very sad. And after that I don’t remember anybody who ever flew a Lancaster who was below the rank of flying officer or flight lieutenant, you know. They automatically commissioned people to be captain of a huge aircraft like that. But anyway, that’s the basic. The rest of the story is in the book.
DK: I see with your second escape you were actually captured and held by the Gestapo.
AC: The Gestapo.
DK: It was the Gestapo?
AC: Yeah. We were, we were arrested [laughs] for eating lunch in a park. And you got —
DK: So, what was your plan of escape because you’re —
AC: We were going to Stettin and we were going to —
DK: Right.
AC: Get on to a Swedish ship to go to Sweden.
DK: Right.
AC: And that was, if I’d known more about it I would have gone to Denmark I guess because there they hated the Nazis.
DK: Yeah.
AC: They were driving people over to Sweden all the time.
DK: So, you’ve got false documentation now, presumably.
AC: Yeah.
DK: And you’re taking the part of, of foreign workers.
AC: That’s right.
DK: Is that the idea?
AC: That’s right. And they didn’t, nobody knew we weren’t foreign workers. We didn’t tell anybody.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The thing about the Gestapo was that they were just a mean bunch. I think they had to be mean to be selected. Our own guards were nice people, you know. Basically —
DK: Yeah.
AC: And some of the people, some of the Germans we met like you may remember a part where we had just got to Czechoslovakia and we were being taken back to our camp by a guard and he was quite friendly. And he, and he spoke to the other fellow a lot because the other fellow spoke German. You know. Had been a prisoner since Dunkirk. And any time an official looking German walked by, you know he’d change his story and be talking about something else. And, but he asked why we took a freight train. Because when we took a friend train all the way to, you know from where we jumped. Where we escaped the working party.
DK: Yeah.
AC: We jumped on a freight train. And I was pretty good at that because I used to do that as a kid. I had, when I went to high school you know. We went out to the freight yards. We’d jump on a freight train and go —
DK: Yeah.
AC: For a couple of miles and then jump off again. But anyway, so we came down in a freight train because we jumped on it. We were at a slight slope uphill and the freight train was going at a fairly slow rate, you know. And we’d run along beside it and jump on. And the guard said, ‘Well, why didn’t you jump on an ordinary train?’ And my friend who spoke German said, ‘Yeah. We, we took a freight train because the ordinary trains have got all these Gestapo people on them.’ And they, they said, ‘Oh, that’s, that’s not true,’ he said, ‘Most of our trains are full of people. Workers.’
DK: So the German guard was giving you advice on how to escape.
AC: Yeah. So, the German, the German guard was telling us how we, so, he said, ‘The next time you escape you should go on a passenger train.’ You know, this is a German guard.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Yet the Gestapo guys they were really mean. If you put your head out of line to look down you get hit on the back of the head with a rifle butt. You know. They just amused themselves and they’d take the women in there and march them around. Make them sing patriotic songs. And then they would take the men down there, march them around and make them go on their hands and knees. You know. Just —
DK: So, how long were you held by the Gestapo then?
AC: Oh, a couple of weeks.
DK: A couple of weeks.
AC: I think it was. I think it was more than a week anyway. Two weeks.
DK: Right.
AC: And, and then a guard came and rescued us you might say. He —
DK: So, had you, had you been trying to explain to the Gestapo that you were escaped prisoners then? Prisoners of War.
AC: Oh yeah. They — but they didn’t bother them.
DK: No.
AC: They, they didn’t give any particular respect to Prisoners of War or anybody else. But anyway the, the guard who came down who was very nice. As a matter of fact, on our way out the main, the main part of the prison I mentioned to the guard that they had taken my watch away from me. I had a Rolex Oyster. And that’s about a two thousand dollar watch, you know. And he said, ‘Oh. Ok.’ So, he went to the fellow on the desk and he started yelling at him in German and telling give me back my watch. The guy opened the drawer.
DK: Wow.
AC: And gave me back my watch.
DK: Wow.
AC: So there was, there was a guard. An ordinary, an ordinary soldier giving the Gestapo a hard time. And we had to give him advice on how to get back the best way because he didn’t know the railroads as well as we did.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And so we went back there. That was my last attempt at escape. And then after that I got back. And nobody ever caught us in the form of our, nobody ever proved it or even suspected that we had changed identities a couple of times.
DK: So you went back to the camp then as this army person.
AC: That’s right.
DK: And then you swapped over again.
AC: I swapped over again. I re-swapped over and I —
DK: I’m just amazed that the Germans never quite cottoned on to this.
AC: So am I but the like I said the average guard there would be a postman or something who would just as soon be a guard in a prison camp then fight the Russians. You know, the Russians were really mean. They were even meaner than the Germans. They still are I think but —
CK: Can I just ask which camp this was? Was this Stalag 8?
AC: Stalag 8B. And then they changed the name to 344, nearer the end for some reason.
CK: You mentioned in your book about a couple of coincidences. You met a couple of chums from Canada or something.
AC: Oh yeah. That’s right. I met a, I met a couple of chums who had gone to the same high school that I went to.
DC: When you first went in the camp.
AC: When I first went in the camp. Yeah. That was my first visit to the camp where they unloaded the train and then they marched us all down to the camp. And a couple of these fellows actually met us and said, ‘Hey, what are you doing here?’ I said, ‘Same thing as you. What are you doing here?’ That camp had a maximum capacity of about twenty five thousand. There were a lot of people there. So, and you can imagine the guard’s problem.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: You know. Keeping track of all these people. In fact they had a compound which, where they supposedly punished people who were trying to escape and what not. I’m trying to think of the name of the compound. Anyway, it’s in, it’s in my book. And, and we never saw the inside of that but we heard about it, you know. If you were caught climbing a fence or trying to beat up a guard or something then you go in to that camp and get punished. So, anyway that was my, my whole period there. And then the, the end came when the Russians were so close you could hear the guns firing and they decided to take us off out of the camp and they tipped the whole Air Force compound at once. They marched us out about 3 o’clock in the morning and we were going west on the, on the side roads. And we were sleeping in barns and so forth.
DK: Had you been expected to be evacuated as the Russians advanced?
AC: Well, we didn’t know. Nobody told us everything. And they decided they were going to take it because having a bunch of prisoners in fairly good condition was a good thing to do when the British were obviously winning the war.
DK: Yeah.
AC: I think most Germans knew that the war was pretty well lost by then. And they marched us all the way there. And the most interesting place we stopped at a train pulled over, stopped because there was going to be an air raid. And the name of the place was Halberstadt, which means half a town. Halbe is half and stadt is town. And the RAF came and bombed the place. Shot up the place quite, and some of our own people were killed there which was fairly normal for wartime you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And they and so the next morning they gathered up, they buried the people that were killed and they put the rest —
DK: So, you’ve been both. You’ve been both dropping bombs and on the receiving end of them.
AC: Oh yeah. That’s right. I was on the receiving end.
DK: Right.
AC: And so they put us back into another train and they took us all the way to West Germany. And, and in West Germany we were in a camp that had just been evacuated. They had taken a bunch of officers and people out of there that they wanted us to hang on to and they put us in the camp. And then we were in that camp when what was his name? Not Montgomery. Montgomery. Yeah. Montgomery and his army came by that area.
DK: Right.
AC: And they, they released us. I was quite disappointed because I met a couple of British soldiers that were telling us where we could go to steal things from houses. You know. How you can loot houses. They’d just walk into a place with the guns and start to look around.
DK: Really?
AC: And take stuff off the mantelpiece and whatever.
DK: And this is, this is —
AC: I was quite disappointed with that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: After the way we had been treated. But you’ve got to remember we also knew that the Poles and the Jews and the Russians and a few other people like that were treated really terribly by the Germans.
DK: Yeah.
AC: The Germans. I guess we were the best treated, treated of the lot because we were connected with the Red Cross.
DK: Yeah.
AC: And you know what Germans are like. They go by the book and the book said the Red Cross was in charge of us. And so the Germans —
DK: So, just going back a bit to your time in the camp would you say you were fairly well treated then?
AC: Yes. I think we were fairly well treated and any, anybody who wrote a book saying we weren’t well treated I think they were probably stretching the truth a little bit.
DK: Do you think the Red Cross parcels made a big difference then?
AC: Oh yeah. They made a big difference because we would get an average of maybe one, one or two Red Cross parcels a month and one Red Cross parcel particularly the Canadian ones were full of butter and jam and all kinds of things that you didn’t get. Because our normal food, God only knows what was in but you know, dead horses and whatever. And that is why I’m so old, I think. I’ve eaten so much crappy stuff. I’m, I just had my eighty fourth birthday and Dorothy —
DC: Eighty fourth? Ninety.
AC: Oh, ninety fourth. Yeah.
DK: Ninety fourth. Yeah.
AC: Ninety fourth. Yeah. And Dorothy’s birthday is coming up. Her ninety fifth is coming up at the end of next month.
DC: Ninety six.
AC: Yeah. She’s going to be, she’s going to be ninety six. Well, she’s got a much better, better memory than I have. So, I didn’t meet Dorothy until after the war.
DK: Right.
AC: And she was working for a big oil company. Imperial Oil. And she was, had a pretty good job too. I didn’t marry her for her money of course but —
DC: Oh yes you did.
AC: So, but anyway and I was a starving student, you know. I had to go back to school and get my grade thirteen. And then I went to university and I got admitted in to university as an architectural student. And in the second year I realised that this would be a pretty boring occupation doing stairways and tall buildings and things like that after what I’d been through. So, on top of that I didn’t have a job or anything and didn’t have any money. Dorothy had some money. But anyway we got married and, and I re-joined the Air Force. Did I join the Air Force after we got married?
DC: [unclear]
AC: Yeah. And I re-joined the Air Force and that was about — 1945.
DC: 1949.
AC: ’49. Yeah. And I was in the Air Force for the next twenty odd years. And then I was too young to start over again then so I went to Transport Canada. And in the same capacity as a pilot.
DK: Right.
AC: And doing safety work. And my job there was to look after the safety programmes in the Province.
DK: Oh right.
AC: I was the head safety officer. Anyway, so, and that’s, so I’ve been a pilot all my life. From, from age nineteen to, to now.
DK: And could I just take you back a bit? When Montgomery’s armies turned up and you’d been liberated how did you then get back to England from there? Or Canada really?
AC: Well, actually they took us by truck down to the nearest airport and then they flew us back in Dakotas, you know.
DK: Right.
AC: You know what a Dakota looks like. And there they sorted us all out and like an idiot I said I want to go back to Canada when I should have stayed and looked around England a bit first. But anyway, so I went back to Canada pretty well —
DK: Right.
AC: Shortly after. Before the war was even over. And that was the end of, that was the end of my military experience. And I got a, I got a private pilots or a commercial pilot’s licence and I got an instructor’s job at the local airport.
DK: Right.
AC: Then I joined the Air Force, and —
DK: So, what were you flying between 1949 and the twenty years you were back in the Air Force.
AC: Well, they didn’t put me on Lancasters. They put me on Cansos.
DK: Right.
AC: I was flying Cansos and, and the first year I was flying as a co-pilot with another chap whose name was [pause] I can’t think of it right now. But he’s probably dead anyway. But anyway he was flying all over the Arctic and looking for the North Magnetic Pole and this and that.
DC: The [unclear] Magnetic Pole.
AC: Do you remember his name, Dot?
DC: Just a minute. [pause] I have to think about it for a minute.
AC: Yeah. Anyway, anyway, so his job was, you know relocating the North Magnetic Pole and a few things like that. And the following, the following year they decided to make me a captain so they moved me to Vancouver.
DK: Right.
AC: Where I took a course on the Canso. I thought I was going to be flying the Lancaster but no I went on to the Canso and I must have done fairly well on that because when I came back I was a captain on a Canso for the next couple of years. And then after that just to make things different they moved me on to Cansos in Vancouver. And I spent another five or how many years were we in Vancouver.
DC: Seven years.
AC: Seven years in Vancouver. There you go.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, I was seven years in Vancouver. And most of our work was rescue work, you know.
DK: Yeah.
AC: Locating crashed aeroplanes and things like that and that’s where I got that medal from the Queen there.
DK: Oh right.
AC: See the picture of me and the Queen.
DK: Yeah. Oh yeah.
AC: I sent her a picture. I sent her a letter asking her if she would sign the picture. She said —
DC: Oh no.
AC: She said, I got a letter back from her assistant saying sorry but we can’t do things like that. You can imagine the problem we’d have writing to everybody who wanted our signature. So, she said, “I appreciate your enquiry,” and so forth and so on. It was the same as the Air Force Cross except it was a peacetime medal.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And it was for rescuing a guy who was having a, some kind of a heart attack in his head out on a weather ship. You know.
DK: Oh right.
AC: In those days they had weather ships way out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
AC: In the middle of the ocean. And so I went out there and landed close by and they brought this sick guy over on a life boat and loaded him into the back of the aeroplane where there was a couple of nurses there. And then this guy was loaded in to the aircraft I’d got to take off in fairly rough water. But I had put two JATO bottles in the aeroplane.
DK: Right.
AC: One on each side. And do you know what a JATO bottle is?
DK: Is it a —
AC: It’s a rocket.
DK: Jet Assisted Take Off
AC: And it lasts for two or three minutes and so we managed to get off at about the second bounce. We got off and stayed in the air and flew this guy to Victoria where he was sent to a hospital and apparently lived to tell about it. So, anyway that was one of the more spectacular ones I did but I did lots of picking guys out of the water and flying them home and things like that. So, that was my job in Vancouver. And then they sent me to Toronto. A staff college again wasn’t it?
DC: You went to Goose Bay, Labrador first.
AC: Oh yeah. I went to Goose Bay, Labrador as a chief operations officer there. I was a squadron leader by then. And then I was told that there were so many people due for promotion that they were going to have to pass me over and start promoting some younger people otherwise everybody would be retiring at about the same time. Which was fair enough. So, I never got any higher than squadron leader.
DK: Yeah.
AC: But it was a pretty good job anyway doing that.
DK: So, so you never flew the Lancaster again post war.
AC: Oh, I flew the Lancaster again in Vancouver.
DK: Oh.
AC: Having been a Lancaster pilot they chose me to check people out in the Lancaster.
DK: Oh right.
AC: And so, I checked quite a few people out in the Lancaster. I flew a few tours myself looking for various crashed aircraft and whatnot.
DK: You didn’t, you didn’t fly the one that’s still flying did you?
AC: No. I didn’t.
DK: No.
AC: I didn’t fly that but no, I’m, I’m listed as a Canso pilot. I got thousands of hours in a Canso. And my son, one of my sons started a business which he called Canso. And he’s got the whole, and it’s doing pretty well.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, and he’s got his whole office full of Canso pictures and parts and things like that. So, it’s quite flattering to see.
DK: Yeah.
AC: All these Canso things are out. So, anyway that’s my story. It’s not much of a story.
DK: Oh, it’s a great story. Just going, looking back now after all these years. How do you feel about your time, you know in the Air Force during the war and particularly as a POW? How do you look back on that now? Your feelings.
AC: Well, considering the fact that my father and mother both died in their 60s. My older brother died many years ago and he was a couple of years older than I was. My younger sister, who was quite a few years younger than me died just last year. I figure, and I may be wrong but I figure that the bad food that I got used to in the camp and the good treatment I got, pretty well, you know went together and made me sort of, I’m still, despite what my wife may think I’m still fairly healthy.
DC: I watch his diet.
AC: Just, my recent call to the doctor, he said, ‘You’re very slightly on the diabetic line.’
DK: Right. Yeah.
AC: And so I —
DK: So, you think it —
AC: I told Dot this and now she gives me hell every time I have a cup of sugar.
DK: So, you think it made you a stronger person. Is that what you’re saying?
DC: Yes.
AC: Yes. I think —
DK: Yeah.
AC: I think it, I think it made me stronger. The fact that, you know, some of the people like my rear gunner Claude Clemens he never went outside the camp once, you know. He just sat there and played bridge and played cards and had a good time and then got released. And I and a number of other people thought that we should be doing something useful like trying to escape.
DK: Did you see it as your duty then to escape?
AC: I thought so. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
AC: So, I mean I was a young fellow I’d believe anything in those days. But —
DK: Was it partly then to stop the boredom? You know. That you were doing something. This was —
AC: I was doing something yeah. And I was hoping to get to, to get out, you know. Actually have a successful escape. And they never did send the escapers back on operations. They used to send them back to Canada or someplace.
DK: Right.
AC: So they could propagandise the other people. So anyway, that was my reason for trying to escape but I think that it actually did me some good because I can eat almost any kind of food. Can’t I Dot?
DC: Yes. You don’t like certain kinds of green vegetables.
AC: So, anyway that’s, that’s my story.
DK: Ok.
CK: Did you keep in touch with some of your crew?
AC: They’re all dead.
CK: After the war.
CK: Ah.
DC: Well, we did keep in touch with them.
AC: We kept in touch with them. Yeah.
DC: But there’s none of them left.
AC: Claude Clemens was one of them.
DC: And Mac.
AC: And, yeah.
DC: And John Marchant, he’s dead.
AC: Yeah. They’re all dead now.
DC: And —
AC: And I’ll probably be dead in a couple of years. That’s why I wondered about you guys waiting ‘til, waiting so long to do this. There’s all kinds of —
DK: It’s taken a while. Yeah.
DC: De Silva’s grandson keeps in touch with us. Michael de Silva. His father got killed at [unclear]
AC: Who are you talking about?
DC: De Silva’s. You know the —
AC: Oh, the son of the fellow.
DC: That was the grandson.
AC: The grandson. Yeah.
DK: So, that’s de Silva’s grandson is still in touch with you.
AC: Can I make a cup of tea?
DK: Oh, I’d love one, I think. What I’ll do is —
AC: Let me make the tea, Dot. You just sit down.
DK: What I’ll do is I’ll just stop this now.
AC: Yeah.
DK: But thanks very much for that. That’s been —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andrew Carswell
Creator
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACarswellA170614, PCarswellA1702
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Pending review
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00:44:31 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
Poland--Łambinowice
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Andrew Carswell volunteered for the Royal Canadian Air Force in his native Toronto. He trained as a pilot and on arrival in the UK and completion of his further training he was posted to 9 Squadron. His first operation was to Berlin. On their final operation they were attacked by a night fighter and in the subsequent departure from the aircraft one member of the crew broke his leg, one crew member’s parachute didn’t open and another had resisted all prompts to leave the aircraft. Andy was taken as a Prisoner of War and was sent to Stalag 8B which he escaped from twice before being recaptured.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
9 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
escaping
final resting place
Lancaster
Manchester
navigator
pilot
prisoner of war
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 8B
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/PBeasleyDG1727.1.jpg
3e6476a4caca883b605d7c511cc297fb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/ABeasleyDG180326.2.mp3
d30a8491f63c56f32a83d26c6d06fe2d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beasley, Doug
Douglas George Beasley
D G Beasley
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Doug Beasley (b.1925, 1876732 Royal Ar Force) and photographs of aircrew. He flew operations with 76 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Doug Beasley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Beasley, DG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Doug Beasley at his home on the 26th of, where are we? March 2018. So if I just put that there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s working.
DB: It’s working.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Right. Yeah.
DK: It is. Sometimes get caught out with the batteries going or something.
DB: They’re quite good those aren’t they?
DK: They are nice. A very handy little —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Little bit of kit that. Right. So, if I can just ask you —
DB: Yeah.
DK: What were you doing immediately before the war?
DB: Well, I, I was still at school when war was declared but in, when I was [pause] yeah I left school and when I was sixteen I started work in, in a company called British Glues and Chemicals Limited.
DK: Oh right.
DB: And I was studying really accountancy. I also was in the Air Training Corps immediately I was sixteen. And that meant that as soon as I was eighteen I went to, to the Aircrew Reception.
DK: Right.
DB: Selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: People.
DK: Was the Air Force your first choice then?
DB: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, I was in the Air Training Corps.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And the, three months later I was in the RAF. And the reason was, I was accepted as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer which everybody wanted to be and they said, ‘But it will be at least a year before you join up.’ And I said, ‘Well, all my friends have gone into the RAF as well.’ And the new position of flight engineer was just coming in.
DK: Right.
DB: And they talked, well I don’t say they talked me into it but you acted as second pilot anyway.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so —
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
DB: Yeah.
DK: What was the first things you had to do when you joined the Air Force? Because presumably there was a bit of square bashing going on or something. Or —
DB: Well, yeah, the first thing was I joined up at of all places Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Right.
DB: And thirty thousand of us turned up there. And as I’m a cricket fan I’m part of the history of Lord’s, you see.
DK: Oh excellent.
DB: So, and we —
DK: You, have you ever been out to bat there, Doug?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: You’ve not been up to bat. No. No.
DB: No. No. No. Nothing like that but —
DK: That’s what I always wanted to do.
DB: There’s a special plaque up in Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Yes. I’ve seen that. Yeah.
DB: So we were there for three weeks and then funnily enough I was, I then went to the Initial Training Wing which was [pause] I found all these things.
DK: Ok.
DB: Which was at Torquay.
DK: So if just say this for the recording then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you were at Number 3 Initial Training Wing.
DB: Yeah.
DK: C Flight of number 2 Squadron. And that was in October 1943.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So whereabouts are you then? Are you —
[pause]
DK: Ah.
DB: The names there as well.
DK: You haven’t changed much.
OJ: I couldn’t find him earlier [laughs]
DK: So they were all sort of the same age as you then were they?
DB: Well, no they weren’t.
DK: Oh right.
DB: I was explaining to my grand-daughter a lot of them were policemen.
DK: Oh.
DB: And they were not allowed to join until they were thirty years old.
DK: Right.
DB: So I found myself, all that back row were policemen basically.
DK: They do, and now you’ve said they do look a lot older don’t they?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And —
DK: So how old would you have been in October ’43?
DB: I was just, I was just eighteen then.
DK: Eighteen.
DB: Yeah. Eighteen and a quarter. Yeah.
DK: So presumably they couldn’t join earlier because they were in a Reserved Occupation.
DB: Yeah. They couldn’t join earlier.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No. I mean we were you know the younger ones. I don’t know how many were in the same category as me but I always seemed to be about the youngest at the moment, you know.
DK: Right.
DB: But I think it was because of this Air Training Corps I was in. As soon as I was eighteen I was interviewed and then three months later I was in the RAF. And that was when I joined up to Lord’s Cricket Ground you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 3 ITW was based where?
DB: Torquay.
DK: Torquay. Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And we were there for about six weeks I think. Yeah.
DK: And what used to happen at Torquay then?
DB: Well, that was, that was when they really [laughs] they really, you got, you got a pretty awkward flight sergeant looking after you and they were basically getting us absolutely fit. There was a lot of running going on etcetera. But it was your initial training for the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. On that.
DK: Was it something you took to well at the time?
DB: Well, yes. Well, there’s a lot worse places than, to be than Torquay. So that was quite interesting. Yeah. And then after that I started my basic training which was at St Athans.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Which was one of the largest, well I think it was the largest place in the, outside Singapore. Something like that anyway. And I was there then for, oh that was quite intensive training. Yeah.
DK: And was that training to be a flight engineer?
DB: Oh yeah. Very definitely.
DK: So you didn’t, you said you tried to join as a pilot.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Bomb aimer. Navigator.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But was turned down for that then presumably.
DB: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t really turned down. I could have taken it if I was prepared to wait twelve months.
DK: Right.
DB: But as I mentioned most of my friends had joined the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: And, well I didn’t want to miss it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I know that sounds a bit foolish but —
DK: So, what was the training like then at St Athans? What did you have to do?
DB: Well, it was, it was very comprehensive really because I wasn’t ever trained as an engineer. But of course the most important subject you had to be good at was mathematics because in the air you did everything.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And so there was a lot of basic training on engines and stuff like that but what, what was really always mentioned was it’s what we had to do in the air.
DK: Right.
DB: If things went wrong. And of course there was a lot of basic training because the pilot and myself were the liaison group with the engineers. Ground engineers. So it was pretty intensive. The training.
DK: So, at St Athan did they actually have aircraft that you worked on or was it all parts?
DB: Yeah. Well, there were aircraft there but part of the training was we went to Speke Airport.
DK: Right.
DB: Where at that time they were producing Halifax aircraft which I was on, and so we saw, saw them in production then and I think we spent about three or four days there.
DK: Right.
DB: Really learning all about the thing. And, and that was the first time I saw a lady pilot, you know taking off.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was an airport.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Well, it still is. Liverpool Airport now. So that was quite an interesting background. And then after that I went straight to the Heavy Conversion Unit. I mean, and that’s, that was immediately on to four engine aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the flight engineer, we were all flight engineers there in the Heavy Conversion Unit and I think I was there a good two or three months ahead of the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: Because the ordinary crew went to Operational Training Units, and what happened was then they came to the Heavy Conversion Unit and we flight engineers all lined up and, and the respective pilots came along and —
DK: Picked one of you.
DB: Picked. Well, it was quite interesting with mine because he was a Canadian and he was thirty one years old. And he just said, ‘What’s your name?’ So, I said, ‘Beasley.’ He said, ‘No. Christian name,’ you see.
DK: Right.
DB: So I said, ‘Doug.’ He said, ‘My name’s Doug.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had something in common straight away. And so it was a funny form of selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What crew you were in.
DK: Do you think that, do you think that worked well then with the pilot just coming up and choosing his flight engineer?
DB: Well, it did as far as we were concerned. Yes. I know of no complaints at all. We all, we all got on very well. The two gunners were British. One was Welsh.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And one was English.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name? Doug?
DB: Yeah. Kerr. K E R R.
DK: Kerr.
DB: I’ve actually as a matter of interest I only found this the other day myself but it’s, I’ve got somewhere here photographs of them all. All —
OJ: I thought I’d be nosey.
[pause]
DK: Oh wow.
DB: That’s, that’s the same as that one.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: That was one of my pals. That was when I first joined up.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was the, that was the pilot. Kerr. Pilot Doug Kerr. This was July 1944.
DK: Just, just for the recording.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s Kerr. K E R R.
DB: K E R R. Yes.
DK: Dg Kerr.
DB: The navigator was Alec Marshall.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then that was the bomb aimer. Jerry Lowe.
DK: Jerry Lowe. Yeah.
DB: The wireless operator was Mel Magee. And these, these were the two gunners.
DK: So the two gunners.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The mid-upper gunner was?
DB: Vic Hewitt.
DK: Vic Hewitt.
DB: Yeah. And Wally Hearn.
DK: Wally Hearn.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That was the rear gunner.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So I only found this the other day.
DK: Wow.
DB: So that was quite interesting.
DK: That’s superb that.
DB: I think, I think it just goes on to all sorts. Well, I think there’s another one here. This is with the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: That’s me there. And this was another part there. This is the —
DK: That’s the Halifax in the background there, isn’t it?
DB: That’s right.
DK: This was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: The Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: I’m just saying this loudly for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: So, and then the, you were at Heavy Conversion Unit for, well I was the lucky one. I had already had experience of the Halifax and they hadn’t you see.
DK: No. So what had they trained on then before?
DB: Well, they were, on Operational Training Unit was on Wellington aircraft.
DK: Right.
DB: And so there was six of them in the Wellington. Training. And I just didn’t go into Wellingtons at all. I went straight on to the, where the flight engineer had to be you see. Yeah.
DK: So was it the Heavy Conversion unit then the first time you actually flew?
DB: Yeah. Yes. And I was flying with, with well the trainee flight engineer people.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And it was quite a hectic course you know because you were then taught how you had to handle the four-engine aircraft. Eight petrol tanks and all the, everything the flight engineer should know basically. So it was, it was quite a course. And then I, the rest had done ordinary flying but they hadn’t flown in a Halifax before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had a trainee. An instructor for the pilot.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But nobody was with me. I was, I was on my own.
DK: You were on your own.
DB: Right from the word go.
DK: So how did you feel then when you had your first take off in a Halifax?
DB: Well, I had done.
DK: Yeah. Done it before. Yeah.
DB: I’d done plenty of flying before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With, with the instructors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so I did, you know but that time well I was I had to know it all, you know. And, and then the first time I flew with the crew I mean the, the rest of them they didn’t know what the flight engineer was for or anything particularly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So that was when we started to form as a complete crew.
DK: Right.
OJ: And was that still when you were eighteen?
DB: Yes. I was. No. I was nineteen.
OJ: So you were nineteen then.
DK: Nineteen now.
DB: Nineteen.
OJ: Flying a plane at nineteen.
DB: No. I was nineteen by then. Yeah. Yeah.
OJ: Gosh.
DK: So your pilot then was quite, for most of the pilots quite a bit older then if he was in his thirties.
DB: Yeah. They called him pop.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was naturally —
DK: The old man of thirty.
DB: Naturally grey haired.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he was, he was a wonderful character. Extremely good and we, you know while we were at Heavy Conversion Unit we learned our business really. What it all meant.
DK: So at Heavy Conversion Unit what were you doing? Were you going on cross country flights?
DB: Oh yes. We were doing day flights. Night flights.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The lot. And even one, one was dropping leaflets over enemy territory. Not, not anything too serious but in the end it counted as our first op.
DK: Right. Right. So your first operation was from the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then of course what happened after we finished at Heavy Conversion Unit which I think it was August ’44 we then went to [pause] well, Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: Which was the 76 Squadron base. Previously 76 Squadron were in [pause] I said the name of the [pause] but it’s a famous —
DK: Linton on Ouse.
DB: Linton on Ouse.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the famous one there was Leonard Cheshire you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we were we were quite a famous Squadron because of him.
DK: You didn’t meet Cheshire there then?
DB: No. But at Holme on Spalding Moor, in the Memorial Gardens there is a special thing for him.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. That’s at Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: No. We never met him because by that time when I was flying he was, he was in the Pathfinder.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Pathfinder Force. And, and of course as you know he was in the crew that dropped the atom bomb.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I think that was what made him do the work he did afterwards. So we then went to the Squadron and in pretty rapid time we, we did our first operation.
DK: Right.
DB: Which I think I —
OJ: One of these.
DK: The logbook.
DB: The logbook.
OJ: That.
DB: That’s the one. I think it was [pause] it was August I think if my memory is right.
[pause]
DB: 17th of August.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And these, these were the sort of —
DK: Right.
DB: Before. And that was our first operation on the 27th —
DK: So is that first op?
DB: So we were there say from the 7th, after about a week.
DK: Is this a week?
DB: No. I’ve, this is when I was just flying as the engineer.
DK: Right.
DB: No crew.
DK: So just for the recording then —
DB: Yeah.
DK: When you were at the Heavy Conversion Unit you were flying Halifax 2s and 5s.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And they were with the Merlin engines.
DB: Yeah. They were.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then we went to the radial engines. So this is when I, my own crew, there’s the Marston Moor.
DK: So just for the recording again.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: It’s 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, you know this is where I was learning my stuff. Second engineer.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Every time. And I flew with those people there. And then this was when I started doing the real, real —
DK: With your crew.
DB: Real. Yeah.
DK: So that’s between the 4th of July ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And the 7th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh, no. Carry on. It’s the 12th. It’s the 12th, the 12th of August.
DB: Right through to that, yeah. We did about sixty one hours one way and another.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: In the Heavy Conversion Unit and they counted that one as an op you see.
DK: So your first operation then was the French coast.
DB: Yeah. 12th of August. Yeah.
DK: A bullseye.
DB: We were dropping leaflets and stuff like that.
DK: So that’s referred to as a bullseye.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: This one.
DB: Yeah. It —
DK: Ok.
DB: And then this is when the real —
DK: Right.
DB: This is when we converted to the Halifax 3 so we had —
DK: With the radial engines.
DB: Yeah. You know, those first parts were basically learning.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With the radial engines.
DK: Did you find much of a difference between the Merlin-engined Halifax and the Bristol Hercules?
DB: No. Not really. The basics were the same as far as the flight engineer was concerned. I mean our main responsibility was looking after the fuel and keeping the balance of the aircraft right. So we were, we were, well I was always pleased. There was always plenty to do. You know.
DK: So that —
DB: Yeah.
DK: So the fuel systems were similar.
DB: In both.
DK: In both aircraft.
DB: Yes. Yeah. It was just the engines that were different.
DK: Yeah.
DB: There has always been an argument that the best aircraft of all was the Lancaster with radial engines. The Lancaster 2.
DK: 2, yeah.
DB: But well I noticed even last night they kept mentioning the Lancaster all the time and, but it’s the, it’s one of those funny things. It was the Spitfire all last night. No mention of the Hurricane, you know.
DK: The Hurricane. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: This always upsets us a little bit.
DK: Yeah. I’m not surprised.
DB: But that’s the way it goes and then —
DK: So you joined 76 Squadron on the 17th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And you’re flying your first operation on 25th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. And that was —
DK: So that was an operation to Watten.
DB: Yeah. That was the, this was the V-1. The V-1 unit.
DK: I’ll spell that for the recording.
DB: That’s in Calais.
DK: That’s W A T T E N.
DB: Yeah. Watten. And, and that was, in fact you’ll notice it was in daylight, which was most unusual and they always say the first one is, is can be fatal. A lot of people went on their first op and this was quite hairy. We, in my diary we saw three aircraft shot down and we were hit by anti-aircraft fire and we lost an engine. So that was a good start, you know. And anyway we survived it and —
DK: So you came back on just three engines.
DB: Three engines. Yeah. And of course when we got back, when you land damaged it’s the pilot and myself with the ground crew and it was quite frightening, you know. What we saw there. But I’ve never forgotten what my pilot said. He said, ‘Well, one thing I’m pleased about is, we all did what we had to do.’ And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was really what crews were all about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so it was a good baptism in a way.
DK: Did you find that because of that danger you kind of bonded then as a crew? If you’re doing your, your part.
DB: Well, it did, it did a lot of good. Yes. I mean we all got to know each other reasonably well but not, not in, not in actual duties like that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, yes it did do a lot of good because it paid off, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And you were saying three planes got shot down. Were you the only ones that came back? Or how many others? How many others went out on that?
DB: Well, we didn’t lose any in our Squadron but there were three we saw shot down.
DK: From other Squadrons.
DB: We had to take evasive action when we lost an engine. Well, I mean it momentrally things aren’t right. You know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And you know I’m, I’m saying to the pilot, ‘Feather the engine,’ and he does what he has to do but of course we’re taking evasive action as well and we found ourselves going over Dunkirk and I think I’ve mentioned that in the diary and we saw another one shot down there and so we were lucky.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We survived it. The first one.
DK: And that was flak that damaged the engine.
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. I mean it was very, I mean they were heavily defended those V-1 sites and this was when it was really at its peak. The V-1s. And we did a lot of, a lot of French flying in those early stages. Yeah.
DK: So, obviously it’s just after D-Day, isn’t it, so?
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So your, so your next operation then was two days later. The 27th of August.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And that was to —
DB: And that was a place called Homburg. Yeah.
DK: Homburg. Homburg.
DB: And again that was a daylight one as well. And then you’re, there are all sorts of things here. There was Le Havre, look. We went there.
DK: So, Le Havre on the 10th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. I’ll just read these out for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So the 10th September Le Havre. 15th of September Kiel.
DB: Yeah. That was the first German one. Yeah.
DK: 20th of September Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 23rd of September Neuss. Near Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah. Near Dusseldorf. Yeah.
DK: Near Dusseldorf. That’s N E U S S.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Then where are we? 25th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then 26th of September Calais again.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite, quite a busy month one way and another. Yeah.
OJ: Can I just take a look at [unclear]
DB: Yeah. And then we go in to sort of October.
DK: Ok.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Can I read those out for the recording?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 7th of October was Kleve. 9th of October — Bochum. 14th of October — Duisburg. 15th October — Wilhelmshaven. 25th of October — Essen. 28th of October — Westkapelle.
DB: Yeah. Its Walcheren Island.
DK: Walcheren Island. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then 30th of October — Cologne.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the 31st of October — Cologne again.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And those, those were all at night then were they?
DB: No. Where it’s in red they were at night.
DK: Oh right. Sorry. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So it was pretty hectic going. And then November.
DK: So, November then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 2nd of November — Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Another back there. 6th of November — Gelsenkirchen. 16th of November — Munster.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 21st of November Sterkrade. S T.
DB: Sterkrade.
DK: Sterkrade.
DB: Yeah.
DK: S T E R K A E E and then 29th of November — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: I’ll get back to those in a moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So what was, what was it like then? Operations actually over Germany?
DB: Well, all, they were always heavy flak. You were lucky if you didn’t get anti-aircraft fire and, of course it always looks a lot worse at night. Although having said that that first operation we did where we lost an engine it wasn’t much fun in daylight when when, when you’re under a lot of pressure. The main problem at night was, I mean I think there was one of those, I think it was one of the Cologne ones where we were the thousand aircraft and the mind boggles. A thousand aircraft over the target in twenty minutes.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know, its —
DK: Could you, could you actually see much at night though from your aircraft?
DB: Well, at night time there were no lights on or anything like that. In daylight sometimes you were supposed to be flying at say twenty thousand feet and sometimes the aircraft couldn’t get up to that. Not necessarily your own. So you could have some below that if the aircraft wasn’t as good as, we were lucky. We had fairly new aircraft. These Halifax 3s. So sometimes we seemed to be above but it was not much fun if they opened the bomb doors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And a lot of that happened of course and hit aircraft below them. So none of the German targets were, were easy, you, you, because the fighter force was pretty engaged at that stage, you know. So there was very seldom. It was either heavy anti-aircraft fire and of course where the fighters were concerned they tend to come up underneath you.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. They were, they were quite good.
DK: Can you recall actually seeing any German fighters?
DB: Oh yeah. We were hit by one. I’d have to look in my diary —
DK: Yeah.
DB: To see which one it was but we, we were attacked by a night, a Junkers 88. In fact, if you go in there.
OJ: Do you want me to have a look with me?
DB: What are we up to?
DK: Up to 29th of November.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. If you —
OJ: That’s December.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. I can’t remember. It’s in the diary.
OJ: November the 18th or was it November the —
DB: Well —
DK: Would it be in the logbook somewhere?
DB: Yeah. It’s in the, no it wouldn’t be in the logbook I don’t think.
DK: [unclear] ok.
OJ: That’s in to November.
DB: If you can —
DB: That’s November 6th
DK: Oh, here we go. It is in the logbook actually. 12th of January 1945. Attacked by Junkers 88.
DB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s when it gets [laughs] Yeah. Well, that’s good I put it in there. Hanover. Yeah. I thought. I said Cologne didn’t I? So that was pretty, pretty you know it was mainly German targets and it was about that time when we, you know a tour of operations was thirty.
DK: Right.
DB: But the weather was so bad and I really genuinely mean that. Terrible the weather was. And we took off sometimes when, when we shouldn’t have done one way and another. And, and we the weather, the weather was so, so bad that what they did instead of doing thirty they brought in a points system. So you had three points for French targets, four points for German targets and because of that instead of doing thirty we ended up doing thirty eight, you see. And this was all because of the bad weather. The replacement crews couldn’t come in. And if you look at the last eight that we did and you’ve got to remember psychologically we’d got away with it —
DK: Yeah.
DB: For the thirty. And this coincided with the Ardennes Offensive and we, that was, you know that was before we’d done thirty. When the Ardennes Offensive was on. We went to a place called St Vith, and it was, we were going to take off on the Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and finally took off on Boxing Day because of thick fog. And we took off in thick fog because we had to go to St Vith. It was so critical. This was when the Germans were —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Getting the upper hand. And it was, it was very heavily defended but it was a daylight as well and we, I think well we saved the day for them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was the railway station we took and they were reinforcing.
DK: Right.
DB: Reinforcing the troops.
DK: And that was to support the American troops on the ground was it?
DB: Well, yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And it was very difficult. And when we got, when we were going back we still couldn’t land at Holme on Spalding Moor because the fog was still thick, and so we got diverted to East Fortune and I always remember it. We’d never been to East Fortune. This is in, in Scotland and I, I remember saying to the pilot, ‘There’s no going around again,’ because it was pretty hairy. We were on, we were, you’re not ever quite empty but it was quite serious. Anyway, he was a good pilot and we landed.
DK: So you were down to your last drop of petrol.
DB: Yeah. And in fact we had thirty gallons left. Which is nothing in a four engine aircraft.
DK: No.
DB: And then we went back and the weather was, was, that would be around Christmas time when we did the St Vith one.
DK: Yeah.
DB: When we had to go. Then we got onto the last date and again it was, it was, the weather was unbelievably bad. And this was when the Russians were asking Bomber Command to help them out and because, you know they were winning but they didn’t have the heavy bomber force and we were, we were attacking troop concentrations and everything else. And the trip we did was a place called [pause – pages turning] Let me just get the page. These were the last eight there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We, we went to, to Böhlen which, we were the diversionary flight for Dresden.
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
DB: And it’s only recently I realised that. So look at that flying time. Eight hours twenty minutes you see.
DK: Eight hours twenty minutes in the air.
DB: Yeah. And so sometimes when you’re the diversionary raid that is to draw the fighters away. But it, I don’t think they were expecting it. The Germans. So in a funny sort of way we, we got away with it. Then if you notice the next night, again to help the Russians, eight hours.
DK: To Chemnitz.
DB: Eight hours five minutes again.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So those last ones, this is, I mean we were on borrowed time in my book. But you know you notice there that there’s the thirty eighth one. So the last two were daylight ones.
DK: Right.
DB: So it’s —
DK: So then just go through them. Böhlen was on the, where are we? That was on the 13th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then Chemnitz on the 14th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the last two. 23rd of February — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 24th February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Near Dortmund. Kamen.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. That was our last one.
DK: Both daylight.
DB: Then. Yeah.
DK: So what was it like flying daylight at that stage?
DB: Well, the last two were daylight. I mean Essen is always a worry because it was very heavily defended etcetera and they weren’t, I mean the Germans were suffering a bit then with, there wasn’t much fighter opposition towards the end. But funnily enough saying that after I finished flying, I don’t know whether this has been mentioned before but I think it was in April our, our Squadron were badly affected. The Luftwaffe made their last, and they followed the bombing, bombing fleet back to bases and quite a few of my friends they were shot down over, over our own ‘drome. And I think in total we lost about twenty aircraft that night but that was the last fling of the Luftwaffe.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They never gave up.
DK: No. No.
DB: Unbelievable really. So that virtually covers the flying part. But the other thing which is relevant is after I finished flying I became an instructor at Operational Training Units.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And this is where it was Wellington aircraft and it was where my crew trained. All of them. And that, that was interesting. And I think it was in 1946 it was my first time I’d ever been to Southampton and I was nominated to be the air sea rescue officer.
DK: Right.
DB: And the course was at Calshot, near here. And it’s something I’ll never forget because it was about a month’s course and of course you realise what you didn’t know when you were flying. But on the, towards the end of the course we were all told we were going to have some very important visitors, and it was McIndoe’s.
DK: Right.
DB: The famous surgeon.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And what he’d arranged is we were all aircrew on this course, and this was part of his mental treatment and we were told, each one had a gorgeous nurse with him, and I think it was a coachload that came. And I’ll never forget it as long as I live. It’s very difficult talking to people who haven’t got a face basically. But they were talking as, as if they because that was his secret. He said, ‘You’re no different now than you were before.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And mentally he’d got them and they were conversing and of course it was very clever, with other aircrew. You know. And it was very upsetting for all of us.
DK: Yeah.
DB: As you can imagine. But that was something which is very relevant to the flying.
DK: Did he —
DB: To experience that.
DK: Until that time then it hadn’t really crossed your mind about what could happen then and the dangers and the fires and whatever.
DB: Well —
OJ: Did you kind of not think about it?
DB: I think it’s it —
OJ: Yeah.
DB: I think its [pause] yeah.
DK: [unclear]
DB: Of course we’d lost, we’d lost crews.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And funnily enough it was only just recently — three aircraft were lost and in three cases they were sharing our billet. The crew.
DK: Right.
DB: And that’s pretty awful you know but you’ve got to remember they weren’t dead. They were missing.
DK: Right.
DB: I know now what’s happened to them but you didn’t know. So it is very difficult to [pause] I think it’s because you think it’s never going to happen to me, but it comes pretty near to it when you’re asked to leave the billet and then they collect all their belongings.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the same night there’s a new crew in.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very very difficult to comprehend that sort of thing.
DK: How did you get on with the new crew when they came in? Did you, was it more difficult to make friends with them then?
DB: Well, no. No. Well, you were just aircrew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And, and I mean they were always in awe of us if, particularly when we’d done about twenty five. They always reckoned if you could get to twenty you stood a chance.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did you find then, did you feel you were more confident then, the more operations you did?
DB: Well, now it’s very, yes you’re more confident as a crew. Yeah. Because you knew each other inside out.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Sort of thing. But I wouldn’t say you were any more confident because it might be your turn.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know. And I always felt sorry for the ones who had done twenty plus and then went missing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That sort of thing. And the worst ones for us were that last eight. And look, look where they were. You know. So that made it worse.
DK: Can I just take you back to, as I say this is the 5th of January 1945.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And this is Hanover and you’re attacked by a Junkers 88.
OJ: That’s Jan 14th.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you’re in Halifax 3 NA218.
DB: Yeah. What date was that?
DK: It was the 5th of January. January 1945.
DB: 5th of January.
OJ: That’s Jan 14 —
DB: Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Hanover. Yeah.
DK: Do you do you want to read it out?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yes, I will do.
DK: Yeah.
DB: “Tonight our target was Hanover. This was a trip on which we were over enemy territory for quite a long while. Everything was ok until we started our run up.” That’s to the target. “A Junkers 88 attacked us from a head on position and slightly below and raked us with machine gun and cannon fire. It was shaky for a minute or so and we were hit but nothing vital had been put out of action. On return we found damage to the wings, fuselage and starboard rudder. In places it was just like a pepper pot. When one shell went right through the starboard inner air intake but by some chance it never hit the propeller. We considered ourselves very lucky as nobody was hurt. The flak was moderate at the target and we dropped our eight and a half thousand pounds of bombs through cloud.” So it, but one remarkable thing was I sat behind the pilot and, and the bullets, we heard them, you know. They were that close. And the pilot was just a slight bullet —
DK: Grazed.
DB: Grazed.
DK: Grazed. Yeah.
DB: So that was how close it was.
DK: Yeah. And that was in his neck.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That was how close it was. But of course we didn’t know that ‘til, in fact he didn’t really know it until we got back that he was bleeding a bit, you know. But that was a bit shaky because again you had to take evasive action and if my memory is right we went down from about twenty something thousand feet to about ten thousand feet taking evasive action. And of course at the end of that you don’t know quite where, where you are and the navigator eventually gave a course and it, it turned out to be a reciprocal course which is easily, easy to do. But fortunately one of the gunners said, ‘I think we’re going the wrong way,’ [laughs] and [pause] it wasn’t a joke at the time.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But we, we successfully, that’s why you know, you rely a hundred percent on your crew and it was all put to right in no time at all. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course I come into my own when, something like, because sometimes what I think it was on that particular one we couldn’t make contact with the rear gunner and that was my job. I was the roaming one, you know.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And had to go. But everything was alright you know. But so it was tricky. Yeah.
DK: So when you can’t hear anything from the rear gunner what do you have to do?
DB: Well, I just go down and I’ve still got, you know I’ve got all my equipment including the intercom and all that and when I, when I got down there I think in in the excitement he’d obviously taken evasive action and his thing had just come out.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. So it was nothing to worry about.
DK: Right.
DB: But it wasn’t easy. I had to go up and down the plane a few times because once we had [pause] well, it could have been quite serious. We, we, you know when the bombs have gone and on this particular one there was one sticking. And that’s again, I have to be the one who goes down to the bomb bays and in this case it wasn’t noticeable at all. And then, also to make certain that all the bombs have gone when you get over the Channel on the way back you open the bomb doors again and, everything all right. The next morning, ‘Will Flying Officer Kerr and Flight Sergeant Beasley report to the commanding officer’s, immediately.’ And we didn’t know what it was for. And this this was when this thousand pound bomb had, was somehow icebound or, or I don’t know what it was. And of course after we’d you know opened the bomb doors and everything else and of course what happens is when you landed at night they don’t open the bomb doors ‘til the morning.
DK: Right.
DB: And the ground crew immediately spotted this.
DK: So the thousand pound bomb was still in the bomb bay the next morning.
DB: Yeah. It was hanging loose.
DK: Loose.
DB: And of course, I mean we, you know you’re not quite on Christian name terms with the commanding officer but he’s a pilot like.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Like an aircrew like yourself and he said, ‘Well, I can’t say you’re inefficient,’ he said, ‘Because you’ve done —’ I think it was about twenty odd ops we’d done. And he said, ‘These things happen.’ But it was a bit disconcerting you know.
DK: So you wouldn’t have known. Well, you didn’t know you were landing with a bomb on board.
DB: Yeah. Well, we landed with a loose con. Yeah. Yeah. Or probably that loosened it but it certainly wasn’t visual to spot it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you visually see the bombs? Was there something you looked down.
DB: Well first of all the bomb bay was open and then you get a pretty good view. You knew where the bombs were.
DK: Right.
DB: Supposed to be. It wasn’t easy. It was quite easy to make a mistake and the saving grace was always opening your bomb doors over the ocean.
DK: So if there were any hung up they’d drop.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They, and we never, we’ll never know to this day what the real story was but we ended up with one loose one in the bomb bay.
DK: I bet that gave the ground crew a bit of a shock the next morning.
DB: Well, they were very nice about it because [laughs] because you know what anybody says the ground crews were unbelievable.
OJ: Did you have —
DB: There’s no other word for it.
OJ: Different ground crew or was it the same one each time?
DB: Oh, it was the same one all the time.
OJ: So you had a really good relationship with them.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And of course when you finished your tour of operations it’s a real, real good booze up. All. Everybody. Yeah.
DK: As, as the flight engineer then did you have to, did you want to know all about the mechanics of the aircraft? So did you talk closely —
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: To the ground crew about what they were doing?
DB: Oh yeah. I had a working knowledge of everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So as they were working on something you would know about it.
DB: Yeah. What happened was if there was something wrong with the aircraft it was the pilot, myself and one of the ground crew who, who went up. You know. You’d see in my logbook it’s quite often that we, when we were having the aircraft tested.
DK: Right.
DB: And no, they, I, I always felt well one of my friends from the Squadron now he was ground crew and they had one night when the, when their, when the plane didn’t come back and he was, he was making the comment, he said ‘We always wonder where it was something we hadn’t done,’ you know. That was the relationship between them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it must be very upsetting.
DK: That must be difficult for him. That —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: He was thinking had you done something wrong.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your, the crew itself did you used to socialise with them at all? Did you?
DB: Oh yes. We went everywhere.
DK: What did you used to do off duty?
DB: There are photographs.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I think in there somewhere where, where we’re all out, I don’t know I think it’s in this one but —
OJ: On the razzle [laughs]
DK: On the razzle [laughs] in pubs and things.
DB: No. But we were, we were socially I don’t think it’s in yeah there’s, there’s where we were fumigating the billet at seventy —
DK: Right.
DB: So, that’s when we first arrived there. And they were nissen huts. I never lived in anything other than nissen huts.
DK: So, what, what were you actually fumigating for then? Because there would be —
DB: Well, because it was a nissen hut which, which was awful.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It looked awful. Yeah.
DK: Nasty bugs in there.
DB: And they were very cold.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah, and so, you know all the crew were —
DK: So there was nasty bugs in there was there?
DB: That’s right. Yeah. You know. There’s where we were out on the river.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: Having a —
DK: So just for the recording its —
DB: Yeah. We all, we all —
DK: You’re off duty at Knaresborough.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And that’s July 1944. So you’re in a boat there are you? A rowing boat.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are you there?
DB: I’d be there somewhere. Unless it was me took the photograph.
DK: The photo.
DB: Oh. There’s me there.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But so we we were always together and —
DK: Can I?
DB: The other remarkable thing about it was we, we and you will probably find this goes on we had six, seven days leave every six weeks.
DK: Right.
DB: When we were flying. And the bomb aimer and the wireless operator they always came to our house. We lived in Welwyn Garden City then, and they always came to our house and my sister was only talking about it the other day. She was fourteen at the time I think, and she said the wireless operator as soon as he came in he’d put his photographs up on the mantlepiece. He said, ‘I’m in a home now,’ you know. And she remembered this, these things very vividly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And my father always enjoyed them turning up because with them being Canadians they had all sorts of goodies. And it was funny. Our crew. It’s most remarkable. Three, three didn’t drink, and four didn’t smoke. Including myself. That was most unusual then, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Most unusual. So my father did very well with cigarettes. Yeah.
DK: So where would you go on your off duty times then? Where did you used to go on your off duty times then?
DB: Well, mainly York.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because York, when we had a stand down it was York where we mainly went to. Sometimes we went to Goole. And Market Weighton was another place near. And the village. The village was quite good at Holme on Spalding Moor. There was a very good pub there. In fact, when we have our reunions we still go there.
DK: You go there. To the same pub.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s still a good pub.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just go through the log book again.
DB: Yeah, by all means.
DK: Just to say. I think we got up to the 31st of October didn’t we?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh no we didn’t we got to November here. So just for the recording again then so just carrying on the 17th of December ’44, Duisburg. 26th of December it’s —
DB: That was, yeah that was the Ardennes Offensive one.
DK: The Ardennes Offensive.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, the 29th of December — Koblenz. 30th of December — Cologne. 1st of January 1945 — Dortmund. 5th of January — Hanover where we know you were attacked.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: By the Junkers 88. So the 14th of January Saarbrucken. I’ll just whizz through these if you don’t mind. 1st of Feb Mainz, 2nd of Feb Wanne-Eickle.
DB: Wanne-Eickle. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Bonn. That’s a well-known one.
DK: Yeah. 4th of Feb — Bonn. 7th of Feb — Goch. 13th of Feb —
DB: That’s a long one.
DK: Böhlen.
DB: Yeah.
DB: Böhlen near Leipzig.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In support of the Dresden raid.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 14th of Feb Chemnitz. 20th of Feb near Dusseldorf. 23rd Of Feb — Essen. 24th Of Feb Kamen, and that was the last.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The thirty eighth.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And so, and that’s total flying here. Total. So operational flying hours. That’s your total flying.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, well that’s seventy nine hours five minutes daylight, and a hundred and twenty two forty night time. That’s a total two hundred and one hours forty five minutes.
DB: That’s pretty, pretty good.
DK: In thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah. It was quite funny.
DK: Just put that down for the recording.
DB: I’ve never looked at the [pause ] my wife and myself we, we had, in the rubber business we were, and we were going of all place to a rubber conference in Essen.
DK: Right.
DB: And on the way there we, we stopped at a place called Munster. And I [pause] and the cathedral there was badly damaged and they had an arrangement with the Coventry one.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB: And I said to my wife that I was flying at that time, and do you know that was the first time I’d looked in my logbook. I fact, I had job to find it. Yeah. And I was on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The Munster raid there and it, it was, that was I had been to Germany on business but I’d not been to where I’d been.
DK: On [unclear] yeah. Yeah.
DB: Well, I went to Cologne.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they were the main. They were the difficult ones.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Cologne. Essen. Well, they were all difficult but you remembered that you, if Essen came up on the board you weren’t very happy to go there because it was heavily defended you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So how did that make you feel then? You were going to Germany on business.
DB: Well, I —
DK: Is it something that was in the back of your mind at the time when you were there?
DB: No. I think the worst was over. You know. When I went, it could have been almost twelve months after the war ended when I I’m talking about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: In fact it could have been longer than that, and things were almost normal back in Germany by then. It was, it was probably later than what —
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It would have been. It would be in the 1980s. Well, that’s a long time.
DK: A long time afterwards. Yeah.
DB: After the war you see. So things were getting back to normal. But I, I was, you do get brainwashed you know. You hated the Germans and I very much disliked the Japanese because one of the neighbours where we lived in Welwyn Garden City he came back and well just looking at him was enough. Terrible. And but they were brainwashed as well, weren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
DB: So were the Nazis, so, and you can still see it really.
DB2: If I can just intervene a minute.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: We went to the church in in Munster. Or part of the Cathedral. And part of it had been bombed. Was it the entrance? Entrance lobby that had been bombed?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DB2: And [pause]
DB: Yeah. That was Munster was it? Yeah. I’ve mentioned that.
DB2: Yes. Well, it’s on my mind. Munster.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DB2: A university town.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB2: For two reasons. But it’s a university town and the Cathedral had been bombed.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Part of it.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: And over the, you know a sign had been put up, “May we forgive each other as He forgives us all.” He.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: The capital H.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: Forgives us all.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Which I thought was rather beautiful.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
DB2: And the, the students, the university students were some of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen. Men and women. They were supreme examples of the human race.
DB: Hitler Youth.
DB2: And yes.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: They were obviously the start.
DB: That’s right. I’d forgotten that. Yeah.
DB2: The start. The start of another of Hitler’s dreams you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Yes.
DB: Well, at the end of the war when the war was ending we were warned that the, the main if if you crashed or whatever happened you, if you were picked up by the Luftwaffe you were alright. If you were picked up by the Gestapo you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And if you were picked up by the Hitler Youth you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They were absolutely brain washed, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And they were fighting right to the end. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just ask just very briefly what would a raid actually involve? When you got up in the morning what sort of procedures did you go through?
DB: Well, first of all you were warned that we were flying.
DK: Operations were on.
DB: That operation was on. And you didn’t know where you were going of course. And then you, in other words you had you had to be aware that that evening or whatever daylight whatever it was you were flying so you took the suitable precautions and then you were called for briefing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And we had separate briefings. All, we went to the engineer’s department. The navigation department. We never knew where we were going but we all, and the gunners we were told what the bomb load was and everything else, but we never knew the target until we actually went into the actual briefing. And then sometimes it was, and none of them were good news but some were better than others [laughs] you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So that was basically the procedure.
DK: Yeah. And then you went out to your aircraft at that point.
DB: Oh yes. You went out to your aircraft and of course it [pause] there was a very good article. A book just written. Been written for the, you know with this anniversary.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And he, in the book it says that in the aircraft the main people who were working all the time were the pilot, the flight engineer and the navigator.
DK: Is that the Patrick Bishop book?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And I’d never looked at it that way but I was glad because I thought well I was occupied most of the time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I was. The only time I wasn’t occupied was when we were over the target and I was up in the astrodome. But you know all the petrol was right.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Alright, when we lost an engine that gets a bit difficult. But —
DK: Yeah. Was that, on the Halifax I’m not too sure. Whereabouts are you in relation to the pilot?
DB: Yeah. I’m sitting right behind him.
DK: Right behind him. Right.
DB: And the idea behind that and this was the, normally if I’d have been in a Lancaster all the time I’d be sitting next to the pilot you see. But it was very clever in the Lanc, in the Halifax. I was sitting immediately behind him. And the bomb aimer assisted him on take-off, you know. And then there was a clear entrance all the way down the aircraft so that if anything went wrong the crews could get out much easier than they could in the Lancaster, you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It annoyed me a bit last night. I don’t whether you watched.
DK: I did. Yes.
DB: The programme.
DK: Yes.
DB: It annoys me every time. It was Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No mention of the Halifax.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then it went on to Spitfire. No nothing on the Hurricane. And then it went on to, no mention of a Wellington aircraft.
DK: No. No.
DB: Which was a very critical one.
DK: And then when you looking on later our next door neighbour here he flew —
DK: Do you want to just —
DB: And he flew, he flew Victors. Next door. No mention of the Victor. The Vulcan bomber.
DK: Really?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Is that a neighbour who flew Victors then?
DB: One of my neighbours. Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. My next door neighbour here.
DK: Oh right.
DB: This is, you know after.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he flew in just as awkward circumstances and it’s always the same. I mean, I’ve nothing against the Lancaster but funny enough it’s been proven that the Halifax was a much more versatile aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I mean it served on Coastal Command. It took paratroopers.
DK: Pulled gliders.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it even dropped off spies in various places.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, and, there was in fact there was an article the other day about the Halifax where one crew they, they were right out in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere and they attacked this U-boat and sunk it, but the U-boat also put the Halifax down and they were, six of them got out and it was somebody local here as it turned out.
DK: Oh right.
DB: They, six of them were in the dinghy for eight days and survived. And how they [pause] they were trying to get, get fish. And when I did this course you know on this air sea rescue the thing, the last, well one of the last days we were there we were in the Solent and they put us in a dinghy at 8 o’clock in the morning. This was in March. And left us. And we were there ‘til it went dark. So that was one day, and then the air sea rescue boat came out and picked us up. And that was enough for me.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It was enough. I thought to myself how can, but of course you’ve no choice have you if your shot down. Yeah.
DK: I noticed that the TV programme last night didn’t even mention Coastal Command, did it?
DB: No. It didn’t.
DK: And the U-boats that were attacked and all the rest of it.
DB: That’s right. No. It was, it was a good programme but not —
DK: Yeah. The usual suspects.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The Spitfire, the Lancaster and the Vulcan.
DB: And of course the, the thing that annoys us most of all was, was, they had to mention Dresden. You know. That’s automatic. Particularly with the BBC, you know. And that’s unfair as well. And in fact one of the things I did for a friend of mine he, he, he was talking about Dresden and etcetera and the last magazine that came out from Bomber Command was the truth about Dresden. I don’t know whether you’ve read —
DK: Yeah.
DB: The last Bomber Command. And I’d written about the last eight for this friend of mine. And of course we were on that. On the raid indirectly. On the thing.
DK: Yeah. On a diversionary.
DB: And I think this article said they first of all claimed it was three hundred and fifty thousand were killed and in the end, I mean it’s it was a terrible number but it was twenty five thousand, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But all these do-gooders they don’t understand do they?
DK: No.
DB: But what I like was the Dambusters pilot, err bomb aimer who’s the only one left now.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What’s his name?
DK: Johnny Johnson.
DB: Johnny Johnson. Yeah. His article. He was, he’s fed up with it. I don’t know whether he was on the raid.
DK: Yes. I’ve met him a few times.
DB: Yeah. Well, he always says, ‘Were you there?’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course they never were. ‘Did you know the circumstances at the time?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well, keep your bloody mouth shut.’ You know. And, and I thought well I couldn’t put it better myself.
DK: Sums it up doesn’t it?
DB: Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well that’s great. Just one final question. I think you’ve really answered it there but all these years later how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command?
DB: Well, I’m glad I did what I did. You know. I don’t think I’d want to do anything else.
DK: No.
DB: At all. And I did what I wanted to do which was to serve in Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So I’ve no regrets at all about it.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
DB: Well, we did up to a point. In fact, I found, found a letter from the navigator and the wireless operator but with I think the answer is that you want to forget the war when it ends. And the first time I ever thought about it was, it was in the 1980s I think it was, and we’d, we had a place in Spain. In fact, we’ve still got it but we, we were on our way back and we stopped at a hotel. We came in at Plymouth and we stopped in this hotel and there was a fella there who, he had the aircrew [pause] what did they call, they called it the Aircrew Association you see. And I said ‘What’s all that?’ And he, he said, ‘Well, the Aircrew Association’s just been formed.’ And this was in the 1980s you see.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And that was the first time it had ever registered. And I said, ‘Well. I was in the aircrews,’ and I said, ‘How do I apply to get in to the Aircrew Association?’ You see. So he told me how to do it. And they kept saying he was too young that fella [laughs] A nice compliment. So, but anyway I wrote and thanked him so he knew it was genuine, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they check you out at the Air Ministry. So and, and so I joined the Aircrew Association and then not long afterwards I got a phone call again saying, ‘We’re now forming the Squadron Association.’
DK: Right.
DB: And that was how the 76 Squadron Association, and this was in the 1980s. So it’s only resurfaced since that.
DK: After then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Did you leave the RAF soon after the war then?
DB: Yeah. I left in 1947.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And funnily enough I think I said in what we talked I ended up in Swinderby. That was the last station I was on. And in the Operational Training Unit there.
DK: Right.
DB: So can’t be much nearer to Lincoln can it?
DK: No.
DB: Than that. Yeah. So I know I know Lincoln quite quite well. So I I was thinking of staying in the RAF because I was invited, invited to because anyway the remarkable thing was I’d also heard that the Halifax had been converted. I forget what they called it. The Hastings or something like this, and it, it was commercial flying. And all they needed was a pilot and, and navigator and, and first engineer.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Like a second pilot I would have been. So I applied for this job and he said, ‘You’ve got all the qualifications,’ he said, ‘But we can’t appoint you.’ So I said, ‘Why is that?’ He said, ‘You’re not old enough.’ And you had, you had to be twenty four then.
DK: So how old were you at the time?
DB: Twenty two.
DK: So you were twenty two. You’d flown thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In Halifaxes.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And how many hours?
DK: Yeah. Well just operational over two hundred and one hours.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And they wouldn’t let you fly the civilian version.
DB: Yeah. They were most embarrassed.
DK: Right.
DB: But that was the rule. The ruling at the time. And funny enough, well I ended up alright anyway but if if I’d have flown with them I’d have eventually ended up with BOAC.
DK: So you could have carried on.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Flying with the airlines.
DB: Funnily enough you know when the Squadron Associations were formed one of my best friends who was in the same flight as I was he knew my pilot extremely well and he went on that, and I told him. And he said, he said, ‘I only just made it, Doug,’ as well. You had to be twenty four. Yeah. Unbelievable.
DK: Absolutely.
DB: Yeah. And I’ve never forgotten that. So I could have carried on flying but I went to the accountancy work.
DK: I think it was the Halton. The civilian version.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: The civilian version of the Halifax.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite interesting to be. So —
DK: Bonkers isn’t it?
DB: You talk more about it now than, I mean from 1940, well when I came out let’s say 1950 to 1980 you never really really talked about it. I was in the RAF Association but the only thing I remember there was they did the Dambuster film. 1953. And that was a story in itself really. One of my friends there, all you had to be was in 617 Squadron you see and he didn’t serve on the Dambusters raid but he was in 617 Squadron, and we had another fella who was a member and he said he was on 617 Squadron, you see. So again you had to do it through the Air Ministry and all this.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And this fella who was the chairman at the time he said, ‘We’ve got a problem, Doug,’ he said, ‘This other fella. He’s never even been in the RAF.
DK: Oh.
DB: So,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to help me out when he comes in.’ So he duly turned up, and this Harry, Harry Nutall his name was, he said, ‘Have you had your invitation yet to the premier of the Dambusters film?’ ‘No. No,’ he said, ‘I can’t understand it.’ So he said, ‘Well, let me tell you something,’ he said, ‘You’re not going to get an invitation. You’ve never been in the RAF.’ And we never saw him again. And it just shows that some —
DK: Yes.
DB: I think they kid themselves to believe it.
DK: Yeah. Walter Mitties. Walter Mitties they’re called.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And that was the only time really it came to life. Because after that again it all went back.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But now it’s, I mean you know the Bomber Command Memorial in London.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Is quite something isn’t it?
DK: Have you, did you get to the unveiling of that?
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Well, all the family came to that.
DK: Yeah. I was at that.
DB: That was a memorable moment that. Yeah.
DB2: You couldn’t get him away.
DB: That was quite something wasn’t it?
DB2: Yes.
DB: Yes.
DK: So what are your feelings on the new Memorial then?
DB: Well, I think it’s going to be good. I’m looking forward to seeing it but I’ve made up my mind as well that, you know at one time we, we weren’t going to go to the official one and now I’ve got the feeling well I should go you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
DB: Sort of thing. But I want to go again because this time it’s more important because that Memorial must, must be quite something. To see all those names on.
DK: It is. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very emotional I should think. Yeah. And funnily enough one of my, one of my, well best pal, in fact I’ve got his, you know looking through this stuff. He flew when it was much more dangerous than I was. He was on the Nuremburg raid.
DK: Right.
DB: And he survived. He survived that and he went to Ceylon afterwards. It just says, “Ceylon Air Force,” and I’ve just found a letter from him where it was dated September the something 1945, and then there’s a note on there. Went missing in October that year. And I am concerned that his name goes on this board.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because I’ve got his name, rank and number. He was a warrant officer like I was you know.
DK: So that was, what year was that then?
DB: ’45 when he went missing.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. But he’d served a full tour. Yeah.
DK: But the war had ended though presumably.
DB: Well, yes it had because he was obviously sent to the Far East.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: To carry on there. So he’d started there but he just went I don’t know where.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I never got the detail.
DK: I know this is a bit of an issue at the moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because those on the Memorial are those that served with Bomber Command within the UK.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Those that went to the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And even the Middle East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included. If that’s where they were.
DB: Yeah. I read that article about that.
DK: Even though they might have served in the UK. I know we’re trying to get around that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Not get around it. That’s the wrong phrase. But to include them.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They want to include those that were in both the Middle East flying bombers. And Italy. And then the Far East.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So at some point, all being well he should appear on there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But not, unfortunately not at the moment.
DB: No.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. because he was serving in the Far East you see.
DK: Can you —
DB: Because we were, we were —
DK: Can you remember his name?
DB: Yeah. I’ve got his, I’ve got his —
OJ: Is it in the office?
DB: Can you just.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Look on the desk in there Tavie. You’ll see a letter in there from him.
DK: Cool.
DB: And his name rank and number is all on there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was a warrant officer like I was. He finished his tour of operations. He did the Nuremberg raid so he, he was always about six months to a year ahead of me.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And he —
DK: They went —
DB: There’s a letter from him which is dated September ’45 and then I heard in October.
DK: Right.
DB: He went.
OJ: He knows exactly what he’s talking about.
DB: His number is on, on here. Everything. Yeah. That’s, I think that’s my, that’s his writing.
DK: Right.
DB: And I think that’s my sister’s writing, but I’ll have to find out. But I think here is his, yeah his full rank and number are on there you see.
DK: Oh right. So —
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s warrant officer JE Topple.
DB: Topple yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember what JE stood for?
DB: John. John Topple.
DK: So, he’s, for the recorder he is Warrant Officer John E Topple.
DB: Yeah.
DK: T O P P L E.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Service number 1874884. And he was with 99 Squadron in Ceylon.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he’d done a full tour of operations before.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. In the UK.
DK: He went missing out there.
DB: Yeah. But you know he was on when it was at its worst.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: So I feel I his mother and my sister were only talking about it the other day. She always thought he’d knock on the door some time, you know. Yeah. But so I don’t know the circumstances but —
DK: No. But he went missing in September 45. Or October.
DB: Yeah. Went missing October the 7th 1945. So —
DK: Right.
DB: I don’t know what he was doing out there particularly.
DK: 99 Squadron then were flying the Liberators out there.
DB: Oh, were they?
DK: So he was on the four engine bombers.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So they stayed in the Far East for quite some time after the war.
DB: Did they? Yeah. Yeah. He was still active service. Well, I was still really until 1947 really. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: That’s even more of an issue actually because it’s actually someone on bombers in the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: After the war has ended.
DB: Yeah. But —
DK: Officially. Though still on active service. Yeah.
DB: Yeah, but he served in. I forget what squadron he was on in the UK.
DK: Right.
DB: But he did a full tour. He did his thirty ops anyway. Yeah.
DK: Well, it’s something, certainly something we need to look into.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But I feel it’s my duty to, you know. You know.
DK: I know this is you know the Memorial round there and the names on there it is expanding.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because a lot of the records only showed those who died on operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: While the aircraft was in flight.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Some of those who died when came back.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included.
DB: No. I know that.
DK: So, that’s why some records say fifty five thousand.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But our records are showing fifty six thousand.
DB: Yeah.
DK: It’s increasing.
DB: Yeah. I think in our book which is, you know there’s a 76 Squadron book. We’ve got, we’ve got everything in there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I know we were about seven hundred. Over seven hundred casualties.
DK: And that’s one Squadron.
DB: One Squadron.
OJ: That’s scary.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. We’ll press on.
DB: Quite a lot of detail as well.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it’s been good for me to go through everything.
DK: Excellent. It’s been great for me. I’m rather conscious of how long we’ve been but thanks very much for that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Just for the recording can I just have your name.
OJ: Yeah. I’m Octavia Jackman.
DK: And your grandmother’s name?
OJ: Doreen Beasley.
DK: That’s excellent.
DB: Oh you’re still there.
OJ: I’m still there.
DK: Ok. Well, thanks very much for that. I’ll switch the recording off now.
DB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DK: So that’s completion of a tour of 76 Squadron. February 1945.
DB: Yeah. Well, that [pause]
DK: So who’s, do you remember who that is there?
DB: Yeah. That’s the, that’s the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That’s the wireless operator. Pilot. Rear gunner and myself. I don’t know where the other two are on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But I don’t know where that photograph is now.
DK: Right.
DM: With the —
DK: With the ground crew.
DB: Wait a minute.
OJ: Which one?
DB: I had it’s it’s I did I did find it. Is this some old photographs?
OJ: That’s your whole envelope of photographs. And you’ve got —
DB: Yeah. I think. I think [pause] No. That, that’s 76 Squadron, you know dinners, and all that sort of thing. But there is one somewhere of, of all the ground crew as well.
DK: Yes. It’s unfortunate it’s not in the album isn’t it?
DB: Oh, wait a minute. I’ll tell you where it is. It’s in my other room.
OJ: Do you want me to go up?
DB: It’s in there isn’t it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Doug Beasley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABeasleyDG180326
Format
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01:21:34 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
At the start of the war, Doug Beasley left school at 16 to start work. Initially a member of the Air Training Corps, he was sent for aircrew selection when he became 18. There was a 12-month wait to enlist as a pilot, so he opted to become a flight engineer. He joined Number 3 Initial Training Wing in Torquay, after spending three weeks at Lord’s Cricket Ground, in October 1943. Many of his fellow intake were ex-police officers, older as they were not released from the police until they were 30 years old. After six weeks he was posted to RAF St Athan for basic training as a flight engineer on Halifaxes, then to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor. It was here that he was formed in to a flight crew when they transferred from their Operational Training Unit. At this stage they were flying the Halifax II and V. It was with this unit that he flew his first operation, a leaflet dropping operation over France on 12th August 1944. He joined 76 Squadron at RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor flying the Halifax III. He describes in detail many of his operations, mainly over Germany. One in particular occurred in January 1945 when his aircraft was attacked by a Ju 88 night fighter. Though struck by many bullets and cannon shells nothing vital was damaged though the pilot’s neck was grazed by a bullet. After completing his tour of operations, 38 rather than the normal 30, he became an instructor with an operational flying unit flying Wellingtons. In 1946 he became the Air Sea Rescue officer attending a course at RAF Calshot. He left the RAF in 1947 to return to civilian life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Torquay
England--Devon
England--London
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
1944-08-12
1945-01
1946
1947
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
1652 HCU
76 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Marston Moor
RAF St Athan
RAF Torquay
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/10623/PHammondBF1801.1.jpg
2e6cb57fd2c4da73cdef8d687d6529a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/992/10623/AHammondBF180904.2.mp3
39855cccc9bd2e67d395dfc623e76a0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hammond, Bert
Bertram Hammond
B F Hammond
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bert Hammond. He flew operations as an air gunner with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hammond, BF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just check this is working. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Bert Hammond at his home on the 4th of September 2018. So, if I just put that there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It works better if you just talk normally. If I’m looking down I’m just making sure it’s working.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But what, what I’ll just start off asking you was what, what were you doing just before the war? Can you remember what you were doing?
BH: Yeah. First of all I was a grocer’s assistant and then I decided to get some further education.
DK: Right.
BH: And luckily for me there was just a bit of luck. I was in ATC, 233 Squadron. Whatever you called it. And I went to the Technical College to see if I could get anything and unbeknown to me the teacher I saw was also an officer in the ATC Squadron which I didn’t know.
DK: Oh right.
BH: He also was in charge for the football team for the squad which I played for. So, he, he helped me a lot to get some further education and there was a period of time which I greatly, you know appreciated.
DK: So —
BH: That was up until I went and volunteered.
DK: So the fact you were in the ATC was flying something you were interested in then? And the RAF?
BH: Yeah, we got the occasional trip, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We, we got one nearby squadron. Bostons. We got, I got a trip in one of those one Sunday.
DK: Yeah. Well what were you flying in? Can you remember?
BH: Sorry?
DK: What were you flying in?
BH: Then?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Bostons.
DK: Right.
BH: The American aircraft.
DK: Right. Oh, right.
BH: And I’ve, there’s only about three crew. Bomb aimer, navigator, pilot and a wireless operator/air gunner because they, they were probably flying in, was it 2 Group?
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
BH: They were Bomber Command but late aircraft.
DK: Yeah. So you flew in a Boston as part of the ATC then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ah.
BH: And we also, I forget the name of the aircraft, we went one night. We flew over the Broads, The Norfolk Broads.
DK: Right.
BH: In a [pause] I forget what they called it now. Twin engine. You could get about eight people in. It was. But that was that was also helpful you know to get you accustomed to flying.
DK: So was that the first time you flew then?
BH: Yeah, in the Boston.
DK: In the Boston.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh, right. So, how did you feel as you were taking off in it? Was it quite exciting?
BH: I was so unprepared. I didn’t, I didn’t know what to expect. But it’s, the best part was that they had left as you got in to the back because it was the wireless op in those and the air gunner was in the middle of the aircraft you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they left all the detachment out so I can see all the ground underneath my feet [laughs] but it was, no it was a great experience.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you, before you go in to the RAF you’ve got a little idea what flying is about. It may be sparse but it was —
DK: So whereabouts, going a bit further whereabouts were you actually born then? Were you a Londoner?
BH: No, I was born in Norwich.
DK: Right.
BH: Brought up in Norwich.
DK: So, in Norwich itself then did you see much about the beginning of the war?
BH: Oh, yes.
DK: What did you see then? Can you —
BH: We got, we got bombed. I mean, but the incident which I never saw, but obviously there was no television in those days. There was a paper and also the wireless where the stray aircraft came over and machine gunned the girls coming out of Colman’s Mustard Factory.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: I mean, I’m not quite sure of the numbers but it was either seventeen or nineteen they killed, and I thought to myself then but they’re not munitions, they’re not war people. They’re [pause] and then of course they got further night raids. And I had a girlfriend at the time. You know, young we were [laughs] and her, they bombed Norwich, and I was, of course this is the early part of the war and she was, her cousin was seventeen and got killed.
DK: Oh, really.
BH: When they pulled her out she was black. Blast.
DK: She didn’t work at the Colman’s factory then. She was —
BH: No. No. Separate.
DK: Separate incident. Oh dear. Yeah.
BH: But that’s the sort of thing that got me thinking about, I mean.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean, at the time I thought I mean a girl of seventeen you know they’re in the bloom of their life aren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
BH: But that really, that really struck me. Those two occasions. That’s all. That’s why I volunteered for aircrew. As simple as that.
DK: And what year was it you volunteered for aircrew then?
BH: ’43. Early ’43. I had to go in. I had to go in to have my tonsils and adenoids out so I got delayed actually, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: Through the RAF you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Went before what they called an Attestation Board at Cardington in Bedfordshire.
DK: Right.
BH: And then of course you have your medical, and seven doctors I believe there were.
DK: So, it was quite thorough then was it?
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So as you joined what were you hoping to do in the RAF? Were you hoping to be a pilot? Or —
BH: I think we all were.
DK: You all were. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I mean to be honest I mean I could send Morse because I mean I was taught it in the ATC.
DK: Right.
BH: Quite capable. I could send better than I could receive. I think that’s natural if you’re not proficient at it shall we say.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And I didn’t want to be a wireless op. So I was straight AG.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A — it was a shorter course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You were a sergeant at least.
DK: So was that one of the reasons you became an air gunner then because the training was a shorter period?
BH: Yeah, it was one of the reasons. Yeah.
DK: So, so what did the training as an air gunner actually involve then?
BH: Well, I was called up to what they called ACRC, that’s in London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground of all places. We got all our inoculations, vaccinations, kitted out, and then we went on to Bridlington.
DK: Right.
BH: And in Bridlington was what they called initial. ITW, I think they called it anyway. And you were taught certain things. Marching and all that sort of things. And one of the, one of the things I remember of course I couldn’t swim and they marched us down, you know. They said, ‘You’re going down to the harbour,’ you know, ‘For dinghy drill.’ Of course we went down at night and thought oh that’s not far to drop. We went back the next morning the tide had gone out [laughs] It was about a fifteen or twenty foot drop. I mean, they lined you up. You might as well jump because they’d have pushed you anyway. You’ve got Mae Wests on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then you had to get in a fighter dinghy. A fighter one, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And then get out of that and get in a bomber dinghy and come back.
DK: So, you didn’t —
BH: I did alright.
DK: You did alright. You never realised how deep it was until the next day though.
BH: But I was, I wasn’t shall we say afraid because I think when you are with other people, most of these were you know were joined up lads like myself.
DK: So, how old were you at this point?
BH: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen. Yeah.
BH: When you join up like that you think to yourself, ‘Well, I’ve got to go with the flow. I can’t show myself up.’ And I think you get accustomed to that kind of relationship don’t you?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Especially as you get older and more in with the RAF. It’s a comeraderieship of being with other people isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. So what, what was your next part of the training then?
BH: Well, then I went to, I can’t remember how long we I’ve got a record.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Of all my service history there. Went then to Bridgnorth. This was called, I think it was advanced ITW. Initial Training Wing, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We did, I don’t know how long we were there but we [pause] it was quite a, quite a big camp. I think it’s still going today. I’m not sure mind you, but it’s going on for long after the war anyway but we then of course you got a lot of sport.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course, and I was very lucky there of course. My mother wrote to me and said, “You’ve got an aunt in Bridgenorth.” So of course the aunt wrote to me and said, “Oh, come for Sunday lunch.” Beautiful home cooking [laughs] We went to church in the morning and then we went to Sunday lunch. Oh, it was lovely. Yeah. I went several Sundays. They were, he was a big business man in Bridgenorth. He’d got a big store or something. I don’t know. But they were very very kind to me.
DK: So the food at your aunts was better than what the RAF did for you then.
BH: Well, yes. You miss your mum’s cooking don’t you? [laughs] Yes.
DK: So what, what sort of training were you doing at Bridgnorth? Did this involve weapons training?
BH: No.
DK: No.
BH: No. No. We didn’t get that training until I then moved to Morpeth.
DK: Right.
BH: Near Newcastle.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That’s what they called, that was the Air, Air Gunner’s School.
DK: Right.
BH: We had, we had rifles. That was all at Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
BH: But that was all, you know. We did a bit of firing with rifles in the, in there but —
DK: So was Bridgenorth mostly kind of square bashing and —
BH: Yeah. And as I remember more or less teaming you up to go to the Air Gunner’s School, you know.
DK: Right.
BH: But then, because we went to the Air Gunner’s School, we were flying in Ansons, with film and drogues, you know. Which was the targets.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was —
DK: Did, did you start your weapons training on the ground or or was it straight in to the air?
BH: We, we, you did a certain amount, you know with as I said with rifles.
DK: Right.
BH: You’d go down the range and fire and that. But the thing which sort of got me interested there more than anything was the fact is that they gave you also, I mean I couldn’t swim.
DK: Right.
BH: So they used to take me to [pause] with some others not just me to Newcastle Baths. So, so we got out of the camp that way [laughs] But I mean I could swim if I’d got a Mae West on.
DK: Yeah.
BH: As soon as they took it off I panicked like hell.
DK: Did you ever master learning to swim then?
BH: No, I never got around to it but the, the best part of there was that this, this is the kind of course in my RAF career this. Whether it’s my soft face or attitude I don’t know. There’s three air gunner’s courses going through at the same time there.
DK: Right.
BH: I don’t know how many is on a course. I can’t remember. Quite a number and yet there was some big AOC who was coming to visit the camp, out of all those people eight people were going to form a guard. I was one of them [laughs] So, we had to do guard. Had to do rifle drill. You know, present arms and all that. He never came so we never — [laughs]
DK: You can’t remember who it was supposed to have been who came.
BH: No. I can’t remember. No.
DK: No. No. So the actual, so they’ve got you in an Anson then and you’ve taken off. What, what happens while you’re all in the Anson?
BH: Well, you get, you either get primary [pause] I’ve got my logbook, it’ll say in there. It’s a bit battered about now but —
DK: Let’s have a look.
BH: I’ll go and get it.
DK: Ok.
BH: You’ll have to excuse me.
DK: Yeah. No worries.
[pause]
BH: I’m a bit slow, you see.
[recording paused]
BH: Things [pause] There’s all sorts of things in here. Number 4 AGS, Morpeth.
DK: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ll tell you what. This. Mostly air firing.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok if I have a look?
BH: Go on. You have a —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: There’s certain things.
DK: Ok.
BH: Other pieces I’ve kept in there.
DK: So I’ll just say this for the recording here.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, this is your air gunner’s flying logbook.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, we’ve got —
BH: It tells you at the front the results.
DK: Yeah. I see it’s got the —
BH: Right at the front I think.
DK: Right. Oh, I see it’s got the, so two hundred yards range.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Cine film. Rounds. So theory average and then air firing above average.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You’re a bit of a shot then.
BH: Well, I think it says —
DK: “Will make an excellent air gunner.” There you go.
BH: That’s it. That’s it. It’s, yeah because I’ll tell you what. I’ve always, I’ve always had difficulty with my English. I can tell you but I can’t put it into words very well.
DK: Find the right words. Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Now, as I say I went to school on mathematics. I mean I watch “Countdown.” I can do, well I do about eight percent of them in my head. I’m good at that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But my English is poor.
DK: Poor. Yeah. So you went to Number 4 Air Gunner’s School.
BH: Yes.
DK: And then, so this is October, November 1943 so you’re flying on Ansons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So were these the Ansons that had the gun turrets?
BH: Yeah.
DK: In them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then you took it in turns to follow them.
BH: You see, it was about four of us gunners went up at a time and we took turns you see and they registered who you were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The pilot flew and there was a big bay there. I remember that’s a beautiful bay. Golden sands there was. Of course, it was cold but because we didn’t have flying gear then.
DK: Oh right.
BH: I mean we weren’t issued with it, you know until we went to OTU.
DK: Right. So it was a bit cold up there then was it?
BH: Yeah. It was.
DK: So four of you have gone up and there’s presumably with you is the pilot.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Is there any other crew there? Or —
BH: Instructor.
DK: Instructor. So the four of you take it in turns to —
BH: Yeah. And he would tell you what to do. Go in, because you would climb into the turret because it was inside you see.
DK: And can you remember what sort of machine guns they had?
BH: Yeah. 303.
DK: Right.
BH: Browning 303. They were all, they were pretty standard I think.
DK: Yeah. So, a lot of the, I’m just reading from the logbook here. So there’s beam tracer. Air to ground as well.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And a lot of cine gun as well.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, did you fire on drogues as well?
BH: Yeah.
DK: And that —
BH: That’s, yeah that’s on the live ammunition and of course they had a cine gun, because that’s what you were assessed on because they’d got a copy of it.
DK: Right.
BH: They could, they could assess it all.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve passed this then and then you’ve gone to 26 OTU.
BH: Yeah.
DK: At Wing.
BH: Wing.
DK: So, what kind of aircraft were you flying?
BH: Wellington.
DK: Wellingtons. What did you think of the Wellington?
BH: Well, we went to, of course we went to Wing. Then we went to the satellite. Little Horwood. The trouble with OTU is, as I found it anyway was the fact is that the aircraft was being flown night and day.
DK: Right.
BH: And the one episode I remember is that we’d gone on a night trip and it was a pitch black night. Well, of course it was winter time and this is a brand new aircraft which is unusual. And as we took off we’d just get airborne and one of the engines cut dead. Now, as I understand in theory that wasn’t supposed to be kept airborne, especially from take-off.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I heard a voice calling, ‘Mayday. Mayday. Mayday.’ I thought someone’s in trouble. Of course, I was in the turret down the end.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I thought to myself I could see the drem lighting of the aircraft that were you know around the airfield, and I thought well that’s not very, that’s pretty close. I suddenly realised it was us that was in trouble [laughs] But the skipper somehow with the bomb aimer they, I don’t know how he did it, because as I understand it especially I mean you could fly on one engine but take-off you were at your lower speed.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But he got it around and he daren’t put the wheels down or the flaps. He put, he put it down on its belly. Then we scrambled out.
DK: So, you were still in the turret then when it hit the ground.
BH: Yeah, I could, yeah but I moved it around, opened the door.
DK: Right.
BH: So when it landed I could just —
DK: Get straight out.
BH: Jump out the back. Yeah.
DK: So, had, had you actually met your future crew at this point?
BH: Oh yes. I was with the crew then.
DK: Right.
BH: They, it was rather peculiar because I would think most people could tell you were just left to your own devices to crew up. I mean, I was walking down the road and this pilot approached me. He said, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ You see. I didn’t even know him. So I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my gunner?’ So I said, ‘Well, yes.’ I felt honoured to be honest about it, you know. And then we got, I was obviously the youngest.
DK: Right.
BH: The wireless op, Jim was the oldest. He was —
DK: Just going back to your pilot. Can you remember your pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yes. Michael John Warner.
DK: Michael John Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: The wireless op as I said he was, he was, he was getting on. He was thirty something. And he, you know, said after we because he said to me you know he said, ‘If we don’t like this pilot you know we can change.’ So I said, ‘Oh, can we?’ Because I mean he’d been in the air, he was a, he’d been in a while I think. He was a flight sergeant then.
DK: Oh.
BH: Anyway, I said, ‘Oh, can we?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, anyway, after the crash he came up to me because he’d become my dad sort of thing. He said, ‘He’ll do.’ Because, you know, he came when we were stationed on the squadron which was at Waterbeach. That weren’t too far from Norwich, you see. Get on the train direct into Norwich you see. So we often went. He promised to look after me to my mum.
DK: So your pilot then, Sergeant Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: After that accident in the Wellington do you think you sort of gained confidence with him?
BH: We, well we all, we all in, because Wing that that was a wartime aerodrome, you know. Scattered billets all over the place and we were all in one billet.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You soon get to know one another when you’re together. But we all gelled together you know. We all got on very well. Then of course later on you’re joined by the other gunner.
DK: Right.
BH: And the flight engineer.
DK: Can you, can you recall their names?
BH: Yes.
DK: What were their names?
BH: Well, I’ve got it —
DK: Are they all in here? Ok.
BH: I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I think this might be of interest in the conversation. I should have brought it through then. I’m afraid that my —
[recording paused]
BH: I only had it the other day, showing somebody.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I must have put it somewhere I can’t remember. Yeah. The pilot was, well yes Michael John Warner.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The bomb aimer was Cyril Holmes. I’ll leave the flight engineer ‘til last for a reason. The wireless op was Jimmy Foyle. The rear gunner was Don because we changed over. I’ll tell you about that. Don Shepherd.
DK: Right.
BH: I’m the only survivor now. That I know of. While I remember on this because we all had to have a second job in case of emergencies.
DK: Right.
BH: And nobody could send Morse or receive Morse to any kind of standard. Only me. So the skipper said, ‘Look Bert, you’re no good down the bottom if anything happens to the wireless op,’ you know. ‘So will you swap with the mid-under? You’re a lot nearer.’ You see. So we swapped over —
DK: Right.
BH: But that was when we were at —
DK: On the squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And the flight engineer we had one and we ran into a bit of trouble over Gelsenkirchen and he, he didn’t make it sort of thing back.
DK: Ok.
BH: We come back with practically no airworthy instruments and we had to land at an emergency drome down near Ipswich [pause] Damn it. I —
DK: We can come back to that.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But —
BH: But we had one. I’ve forgot his full name now. Then we had a second one. It was Tommy Buchanan.
DK: Right.
BH: He finished. He did the rest of the tour. He did about another —
DK: Yeah.
BH: Twenty five ops.
DK: Right.
BH: With us. So that’s the one I remember more than anything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve just noticed in your, your logbook here you talked about that crash while you were training in the Wellington.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And it’s, it’s got it down here. Just for the recording here it’s, it’s got a date.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I think this must have been it. The 19th of March 1944. And it’s in Wellington 244.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Sergeant Warner and it’s for, you’ve put in brackets there, “Crashed on take-off.”
BH: Yeah, that’s it.
DK: So, that would have been it, would it?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, it’s recorded as fifteen minutes flying time. See this.
BH: I was sat in the back there like [laughs] just didn’t realise until suddenly there was this drem lighting this close.
DK: So just as I say just for the recording then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: As I say that was the 19th of March 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That was a Wellington. And was that at Wing?
BH: Yeah.
DK: That you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that’s all 26 OTU.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then, so looking at the logbook here you’ve done twenty six hours forty minutes day flying, and twenty seven hours fifty five night flying.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So then during the time at the OTU you didn’t do any operational sorties at all did you?
BH: Oh, well you’d hardly call it that. We were doing, I forget what they called them now. We went sort of somewhere near the Belgian coast, I think.
DK: Oh, was this a diversionary raid?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Right.
BH: But you know we, it was all taken over on the short trip when that was back sort of thing. I think it was mainly to do with the radar perhaps or something. I don’t know.
DK: I think that’s on the logbook here that you’ve got diversionary raid.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On the 15th of March 1944. Wellington 242.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I suspect that’s it there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s what it was.
DK: So, no actual bombing raids.
BH: No.
DK: While you were on the OTU. So, and then after that I’ve got you as going to 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BH: Yeah, that was at Waterbeach.
DK: Waterbeach.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And there you’re, by this time you were the mid-upper gunner then.
BH: Yes. Yes. Mid-upper.
DK: So at Wing was Wellingtons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And then Waterbeach.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Lancasters.
BH: Conversion Unit, yeah.
DK: Yeah, and you were converting to the Lancaster.
BH: Yeah. That’s the Mark 2.
DK: Ah. Right. So, it was the Mark 2.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the Hercules engine.
BH: That’s what I was trying to find. I don’t know where I’ve got it. I had it the other day.
DK: It’s not in here is it?
BH: No.
DK: Is there a photo of it?
BH: No. It’s, it’s a paperback. It’s, it’s, it was the actual aircraft we did seventeen ops in was in, there used to be a magazine called “Flight.”
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: It was in there and we managed to get and then it’s come out in a book and I don’t know what I’ve done with it now.
DK: Oh, that’s a shame. Perhaps we can find it a bit later.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So it’s at 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That, that’s when you’ve met your first flight engineer presumably.
BH: That’s right, yes.
DK: Yeah. And the second gunner.
BH: No. He came he came, he came to us in —
DK: At the OTU.
BH: OTU. The end part of the OTU.
DK: Right. The end part. So, you’re now mid-upper gunner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of the, comparing the two mid-upper gunner to the rear gunner was?
BH: It was [laughs] to be honest I didn’t think much of the mid-upper really because you saw too much. You were wide open you see.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You see, at the back you see where you’ve been. At, up there you could see all the way around.
DK: All the way around.
BH: No. I mean you adjusted yourself to the requirements. Skipper’s the skipper. Of course, then he was made an officer.
DK: I see. He is now Pilot Officer.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Warner, isn’t he?
BH: Yeah. Made him the pilot.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course the point before I forget when we were moved to, to Waterbeach, because he was an officer he couldn’t come in the sergeant’s mess. So we billeted ourselves voluntary in, because it was a peacetime built camp into barrack room so he could come over and be with us you see.
DK: Yeah. Do you think that put you as a crew to a bit of a disadvantage where the pilot’s an officer and you’re not? Did you think that affected you? How you worked together?
BH: Not me personally because I had all the rest of the crew around me, but he was on his own.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Nobody else was an officer in the crew, you see.
DK: Do you think that’s not necessarily a good idea then? Or —
BH: Well, it —
DK: Did it affect people?
BH: I mean obviously he was a very quiet person, you know. He was not one, I didn’t think to make quick relationships you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He was sort of laid back, and I used to feel to myself you know you’d gone into a strange world where before we went to the sergeant’s mess all together and now you’re going on your own. Me, I got all the, all the rest of the crew around me. I was alright. Yeah.
DK: So you’re on the Lancasters Mark 2s with the Hercules engines.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you think of those as a, as an aircraft to fly on?
BH: Oh wonderful. The thing I make about them they were so quiet. You know the, the only trouble was when we got on to the squadron they were about eighteen thousand feet maximum.
DK: Right.
BH: So you got the Lancs above you, the Mark 1s and 3s you know, missing the bombs.
DK: So, so the Lancaster Mark 2 couldn’t fly as high as the —
BH: No, about eighteen thousand was the maximum.
DK: Right.
BH: Around about that.
DK: Well, do you know if they were any faster? Or —
BH: Near the ground.
DK: Near the ground. Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: But they, you don’t think they were as noisy inside.
BH: No.
DK: As the other ones.
BH: No. The Mark 3 we went on they were American Packard Rolls Royces. God they were noisy, you know. God. I mean they were, they were built under licence.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because I think the fact is that the Americans turned out the Mustang. I mean the Rolls Royce they put in them made them it a long range fighter for their bombers.
DK: Right.
BH: You see they put a Rolls Royce in. It was a different aircraft then. They could do the distance.
DK: I’m just reading from your logbook here for the recording.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It says here you were on at, at Waterbeach you were on the Lancaster 2s.
BH: Yeah.
DK: This had all been training. Air to air bombing training.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Whatever. So you were on Lancaster. I’ll just read this out 619, 622, 617, 787, 624, 617 again.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 619, 787.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 624, 617. So, that’s from through from May ’44, well, all of May ’44.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were on a number of different Lancaster 2s then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On various training at Waterbeach. So that carries on to May ’44. Lancaster 2 again. LL 620. Well, 620 three times. And then I notice here 30th of May 1944 you’ve done an operation to Boulogne.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So would that have been your first operation then?
BH: I believe so, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So, I’m just —
BH: The wing commander came with us. You know, the station, well the squadron commander.
DK: I’m just, I’m just jumping ahead of myself there. I’ll read this again. So, on the 30th of May ’44 you’ve left 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And gone to 514 Squadron.
BH: Yeah.
DK: They were both based at Waterbeach then.
BH: Yes.
DK: Oh right. I’m with you. So, 30th of May ’44 fighter affiliation Lancaster LL 620. Then you’ve taken LL 620 on the first operation to Boulogne.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, 30th of May ’44. Your first operation to Boulogne. What was that like? Because the first time over enemy territory.
BH: How I felt? [pause] Of course the first thing you know you’re going on ops is that the Battle Order goes up in the mess. Both messes. Officers and sergeants. And if your skipper’s name is on it you’re on that night.
DK: Right.
BH: And when that, from that start to the finish you, you get a bit of a grip in your tummy and you go out and you do your DI on your turret. Make sure everything is all right. You get a little idea where you’re going, the distance by what’s in the tanks, you know. If they’re quite full you know you’re on a seven to nine hour trip at least. So, it’s a bit of apprehension.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You’re, I mean I’ll be honest with you if anybody says they weren’t frightened I’m sorry I’d call them a liar. But you’re so controlled. You have to be. Once you get in the aircraft it’s different. It goes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because you’ve got a job to do.
DK: And, and what exactly was your role? Your job as an air gunner. You’re, you’re there and as you say you’ve got this panoramic view all around you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What was your job?
BH: The job of both of us don’t forget that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Is, the fact is we are the eyes of the aircraft. We’re looking for fighters. We’re looking for other Lancasters because you fly, you fly in a stream you see. And your main job if you see anything is quickly report it, you know. I mean we talk between the gunners.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I see something, you see and I say, ‘I’ll keep an eye on that,’ you know, if you, what, because that could be a decoy you see. But I mean you, we were lucky. We got not too much trouble with fighters, you know.
DK: No.
BH: We saw them in time so we, we didn’t have many problems like that, but we got one or two holes from ack ack.
DK: So you, you can’t recall you were ever attacked by fighters.
BH: No. No.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We, we sussed them out you know. We, and by that, I mean by that stage we had an aircraft tracking device. Radar which the wireless operator operated so we could tell if any fighters were in the vicinities and we veered away from them.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Yeah. But that has to be, in those days it was Gee radar for navigation and then of course when we went on the Mark 3 they had the old what did you call it?
DK: H2S.
BH: Yeah, H2S. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So, I notice here your first operation then 30th of May 1944 to Boulogne that you’ve got your pilot, Pilot Officer Warner.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It also says you’ve got Wing Commander Wyatt DFC on board.
BH: That’s the, he was the squadron commander.
DK: Right. So you’re very first op you had the squadron commander on board.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did that make you feel a bit nervy?
BH: Well, it’s, you know, he sort of, see the skipper always went on one trip before you.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: He went. What did they call it? Sit in the second dickie sort of thing to get experience. So he’d already done one.
DK: So, Warner’s done one operation already.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So, anyway went out and of course the wingco is sort of saying, you know to us, ‘Right gunners. Keep your eyes open.’ And all that, you see and Mick was saying nothing [laughs]
DK: So Wyatt was there really to keep, to see how you were performing. Was that the idea then?
BH: I think also to see what reaction he got from us.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Also to see and keep in touch with the situation with flying you know, on ops. I don’t know whether he was, had to do anything like that. I mean the flight commanders did.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They had to do, you know so many.
DK: So, so looking at your first operations then through May 1944 most of them seem to be the pre D-Day.
BH: Yes. Yes.
DK: Landing operations.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So they were sort of in to France mostly.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So, there’s a couple into France and then you’ve got one here. 12th of June 1944 Lancaster 2 again. 826. Lancaster 2, Serial 826 and its to Gelsenkirchen.
BH: Yes. The one, yeah where we had to land.
DK: It says here you landed at Woodbridge. So —
BH: That’s the name of the place. Yeah
DK: Yeah. So —
BH: That’s an emergency ‘drome.
DK: Right.
BH: There was, there was three of them about the country. There was one up in York. I think it’s called Coleby. Something like that.
DK: And Manston’s the other one isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Manston in Kent. Yeah.
DK: So what exactly happened on the Gelsenkirchen raid then?
BH: Well, we caught up with a bit of trouble you know with anti-aircraft fire.
DK: Right.
BH: And we lost the, lost the, you know, the instruments and the point was the flight engineer was, how shall I put it? Skipper lost complete confidence in him.
DK: Really.
BH: I know it’s a fright but he, anyway he went back and he said he needs retraining or something you see, you know. I think he spared him. He panicked. But it’s one thing you don’t do in the air, panic.
DK: Yeah. Had the aircraft been badly hit then? Or —
BH: No. Not too bad. It caught, it caught the sort of the front of the aircraft and I don’t know what happened to be honest about it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And when you go over there you get waves and you go up and down with the, with the anti-aircraft fire because over, over certain cities it’s, it’s immense.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean in France its reasonable, you know.
DK: So, you’ve then made an emergency landing at Woodbridge.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Because the aircraft was damaged.
BH: Well, there was no instruments.
DK: Right. Ok.
BH: Well, I say no instruments he’d got no flying speed. That had gone. So he didn’t know what speed he was landing at. He could land it, you know. He’d got full control of the undercarriage and the flaps. There was no problem there. It was just, you know as I said trying to. I forget. I know he’d got no airspeed indicator.
DK: Right.
BH: So what happened I don’t know really because you were just glad to get back.
DK: Yeah. So you landed at Woodbridge.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Because that’s the emergency landing ground.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the really big runway.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And it was after that point you got the new flight engineer then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because he reported back and he said he thought he needed retraining. Left it at that. And the other chap we got, the new one, Tommy Buchanan was a different person altogether.
DK: And if I could just take you back a couple of days.
BH: Yeah.
DK: I know, I know the Gelsenkirchen raid was on the 12th of June.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You actually flew on D-Day itself.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The 6th of June. Do you remember much about the D-Day operation?
BH: That that was D-Day night.
DK: Right.
BH: We were, we were on to go on D-Day and it was cancelled. Nobody was allowed out the camp. The door was guards because of secrecy, you see. And we knew. We knew what was on. Somebody yelled, ‘You’re not going anywhere. Nobody.’ There was double guards on the gates and that. Of course, they had to be. Thousands of lives at risk weren’t they?
DK: So, you were aware that was D-Day.
BH: Oh yeah. We knew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And what you’ve got there is D-Day night.
DK: Right.
BH: We went.
DK: So, D-Day night it was operations to, for the recording I’ll spell this out L I S I E U X.
BH: I’ve no idea what that was.
DK: No. That’s, that’s that being France it’s, it mentions Channel guns.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were hitting the gun emplacements.
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: And do you remember could you see much of the invasion itself as you flew over there?
BH: No, no. I mean all we saw was, all I saw was because you don’t look for that. You’re looking all the time for your own protection you see. But I did see a parachute. So somebody baled out.
DK: Right.
BH: I don’t know who it was but if one parachute means it could have been a fighter and that means it could have been a German fighter. But one parachute. You never can tell can you? Someone may have jumped.
DK: So on D-Day you were on a Lancaster again, 816. Just for the recording here the Gelsenkirchen emergency landing at Woodbridge was Lancaster 2, Mark 2, 826.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So let’s go through here then. It’s France again isn’t it because you went to Le Havre.
BH: Yeah.
DK: On the 14th of June.
[telephone ringing]
BH: Oh, excuse me.
DK: Yeah. No worries.
[recording paused]
DK: So, so through June 1944 I notice there’s, there’s one in green here. So, was one a daylight operation?
BH: Daylight. Yeah. Daylight.
DK: And that was to —
BH: That was peculiar. To go down you could see all these lakes, you know. Because the skipper was a good, he was a good [pause] He, he was trained in America so what’s the word? You’ll have to excuse me. Words fail me sometimes. Formation flying. He was good at that.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Yeah. He was good at that.
DK: So this operation it’s 21st of June 1944 to Abbeville.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And that was in daylight.
BH: Yes.
DK: And you’ve gone over in formation then.
BH: Well, straggling.
DK: Straggling.
BH: It wasn’t as good as the Americans by no way there [laughs]
DK: So you would have seen Lancasters.
BH: All around. Yes. Yes.
DK: All around you. Yeah. And how did that make you feel? Was it quite an impressive sight then, or —
BH: Yeah, because I mean you could go at night and never see them. You could feel them. You could feel the turbulence if you were near one but it’s, it’s the sight because you see we saw one aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft and he turned around and come back. We’d got fighter escort you see but they were way above and all of a sudden we saw these Spitfires come down and go alongside him. One kept alongside him. The others kept above him and behind. He got his, one engine was on fire, so whether, you know he turned around. He went against the bomber stream
DK: Yeah.
BH: On the outside, you know. So I don’t know whether he made it all.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I mean I should think so.
DK: But the Spitfires escorted him back did they?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So you did a number of daylight operations then.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then mostly over France again and then I noticed, so 20th of July you’re back over Germany. Homberg.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what, what was it like flying back over German cities again?
BH: Different. It’s, it’s a different feeling altogether because you’re in the pitch dark again, you know and you search, search, search. In daylight you could see everything. I mean you could get [pause] and not only that you have to make sure you’ve changed your ammunition because in daylight you’ve got daylight tracer bullets.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They’re bright obviously and at nights they’re not quite so bright. If you’ve got daylight in they frighten to death. Be like the Blackpool Illuminations. You have to check you know every time you go. You have to check your aircraft to see that they’ve changed it because you know in the hustle and bustle of a bomber station at the time it’s all go sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Day in and day out.
DK: So just talking about a normal operation then how, you’ve got the call in the morning and your pilot’s name’s up on the list.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What happened then? Was there briefings and —
BH: Well, as I said we go, it’s in the morning you, you, I mean we went to briefing probably, I don’t know what time but you know at that time of year you didn’t take off probably ‘til about 9 o’clock, 8 o’clock. Something like that. I can’t remember now. It’ll tell you in there anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And of course you go to briefing and you know you go in and of coruse there’s a guard outside the doors and you look at, you look at where the ribbon ends [laughs] That tells you. Full stop. Yeah. I mean, you got a little idea as I said the distance.
DK: So briefings then. Would they have all of the crews in there?
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And all of the —
BH: But the pilots and the bomb aimers, was it? And the navigators. Oh, the navigators. They had a special briefing before us.
DK: Right.
BH: Then we got a general briefing. I mean they get all the gen for navigating for that but we went in a general, you know. Just sit and you’re informed of your targets which you could see anyway. You’re informed why you’re going. You’re informed of all the, various people get up and tell you, you know. ‘Be careful around here. Don’t stray off course because there’s a battery of anti-aircraft there.’ And all that. ‘Fighters. Keep your eyes open because you know when they’re about,’ sort of thing. We knew that but there was general information and then of course you know you stood up when the CO come in and you sat down again. But it was about, and then there was the weather.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You get to talk about the weather and you sit there and listen to try and digest everything for your own benefit, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So after the briefing then.
BH: We had a meal.
DK: You had a meal.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Do you remember what you used to eat?
BH: Yes. Bacon and egg. I remember one trip. That was a daylight. I forget where it was now. It kept getting cancelled. We had about ten meals that day [laughs] Never felt so good. We ran out of eggs. Yeah. Mind you, I must say this. I have heard some lads where they’ve been on the camp and it’s not been, it’s been alright. We were exceptionally looked after well there. Exceptionally.
DK: And this was at Waterbeach.
BH: We had, we had fruit on the table. Mind you there was orchards all around.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Around that area. We had milk. Jugs of milk.
DK: Yeah.
BH: We were well looked after. Yes.
DK: So you’ve had the briefing and then you’ve had the meal.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you then go out to the aircraft or are you —
BH: Well, you decide then, you know. It depends.
DK: Right.
BH: Sometimes you have a little time. Or you, you then get in the aircraft or you get in the transport and they take you. And of course you sit in the aircraft waiting. Well, it depends sometimes. And then of course you take your turn to take off. Now, this is where the Mark 2 easy. Mark 3 we seemed to struggle nearly all over bloody Cambridgeshire to get up any heights.
DK: Really?
BH: But then there was always people standing by the, you know the observing what do you call it.
DK: By the runway.
BH: Yeah. You know. Waving you off.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So that would be off the ground staff then were waving you off then were they?
BH: Well, there was WAAFs. There’s all sorts. They had boyfriends and things like that, you know and then people in general used to.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did that, did that fill you with a bit of confidence that there was people waving you off?
BH: Well, I thought if they’d take the trouble.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You know. To do that, I mean. It was, there was no skin off their nose to be there. They came by voluntary terms.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Many had various reasons but it was nice to see it. Let’s put it that way. Yeah.
DK: So you found the Mark 2 Lancaster with a, presumably with a full bomb load of fuel.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Easier to get in the air than —
BH: Yes. Definitely.
DK: Than the Mark 1s and 3s.
BH: And then, of course the higher you got the Mark 3 took over.
DK: Right.
BH: You see as you got higher in the Mark 2 it got more difficult to get up there but of course you could get, you got up to about twenty two, twenty three thousand in the Mark 3. Twenty one easy.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Depend what bomb load you’d got, you know.
DK: Yeah. So just going through your logbook again then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You did 23rd of July ‘44 to Kiel.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The Naval yards.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Do you remember much about that?
BH: It was one, one of the first. We’d been twice actually but one of the most, I don’t know why but when we got there the ground was lit up as though it was daylight. I’d never known that before. I mean before you got over a target you got the target indicator. The master bomber would tell you what to bomb. You know, the colour of the TI. You know, the target indicator.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And again. Over there you got target indicators and just I could you know, I mean I could see streets below all lit up like daylight. I think, you know afterwards, after the First World War I think there was trouble there.
DK: Yeah.
BH: During the war. They thought they could perhaps you know arrange the same thing again. That’s why we went but it’s uncanny because you know it suddenly become more sort of like a daylight over the target which is, of course you’ve all the ack ack flying about.
DK: Yeah. So was it the lights of the city were on then?
BH: No. No.
DK: Or just —
BH: The Pathfinders had illuminated them.
DK: Oh, I see. Oh right. I see. So that was the Pathfinder flares.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Target indicators.
BH: Well, there was target flares on the ground.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I mean it was just like daylight.
DK: Right.
BH: I only can assume, you know that was the reason that they went to that target and what they did to the target. I’ve got no other ideas.
DK: And then I notice 25th of July, and 28th of July you went to Stuttgart twice.
BH: Yeah. That, I had in there the first one I think, I think it’s in there. This is it. Found this at the, they found this for me. This is my pal in Norwich.
DK: Ah.
BH: He, they’ve got to find some more for me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I couldn’t give enough information. He was at ATC with me.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
BH: He was at Mildenhall and he went on that first op.
DK: To Stuttgart.
BH: That was his first op and he never came back.
DK: Can I have a —?
BH: Yeah. That was my pal Richard.
DK: So, for the recording then this is Richard Duffield.
BH: Yeah.
DK: D U F F I E L D. Richard Duffield and this is the IBCC Losses Database.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So Richard Arthur Duffield, nineteen. Died, yeah 25th of July 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was the operation to Stuttgart.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were both on the same operation.
BH: Yeah. I didn’t know that obviously.
DK: Right.
BH: I mean I didn’t, you see at Mildenhall there was two squadrons so I wasn’t sure which one it was.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But they kindly found this out for me.
DK: So Richard Duffield then was on Lancaster LN 477.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And he —
BH: Buried at, buried in France.
DK: So he was with 622 Squadron at Mildenhall.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And reason for loss? Crashed in the outskirts of Nancy, France.
BH: Yeah. We went to ATC. Well, he used to call for me to go to ATC on his bike.
DK: So did you only find this out quite recently then?
BH: I knew he was at Mildenhall. That’s all I knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I knew. I knew, I knew George had got, because my mother wrote and told me. It’s very helpful when you’re on a squadron when one of your best pals has gone missing and I found out. I phoned up on the telephone because there was an Association, you know but they didn’t, he said there was two aircraft from Mildenhall missed that night and they said there was one survivor. Now, I think there was one survivor there if you count up. There was six graves.
DK: Right.
BH: There was seven in a crew. So I presumed it was from Richard’s aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
BH: As there was a survivor.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah. It was, fellow servicemen. One, two, three, four, five. Yeah. There’s five there so one of them would have survived wouldn’t they?
BH: Yeah. I assumed that anyway. I said they’ve got some others which they can’t find. It’s difficult. Perhaps I can, I you know, they can have another go for me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: There’s a George Chapman. He’s a navigator. George. They all, I ought to have told them this, they were all from Norwich. That would have helped wouldn’t it? But I can’t find, he was, he went missing before me.
DK: And he was in Bomber Command as well was we?
BH: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah. If you give me the names I’ll see if I can find them as well.
BH: Well, there’s one name. I mean George was not too far. He wasn’t a particular friend. I just knew him.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Richard was a friend.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But I used to come with him. I used to come home on leave and this is the sad part, and I used to have to pass George’s house and his mother used to be, ‘Hello Bert. How are you?’ And she used to look at me and I used to feel guilty about being alive.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It’s a horrible feeling, but she was a lovely lady you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I suppose she looked at me and you know, ‘My son has gone.’ Yeah.
DK: If you give me his name later on I’ll see if I can find him.
BH: Well, the only other information I’ve got as I said he’s from, I’ve got his, I’ve got the road he lived on. Of course I can’t remember the number.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But there’s another one too. I’m not quite sure the name. Later I thought he was a policeman’s son further down the road. I didn’t know him well but I knew of him. He was Jimmy [unclear] I think that’s his name. And I’m pretty sure he was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
DK: Oh right.
BH: He was a wireless operator and he lived at Wall Road. Somewhere up Wall Road in Norwich.
DK: Right. And he was killed as well then.
BH: Oh yes. This was about, I would think about 1942.
DK: Right. I’ll make a note of the names later and —
BH: That name I’m not too sure. It began with a W, I know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Wombon or something like that.
DK: Right. Ok. Well, if he’s got the CGM.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Well, there’s [unclear]
BH: I’m sure he did afterwards I remember. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Well, I’ll try and look into that for you.
BH: Thank you very much. They’re just people. Comrades in arms sort of thing that, you know you, there was —
DK: What was the name of the Spitfire pilot from Norwich?
BH: Jim.
DK: Sorry.
BH: Tim Colman.
DK: Tim Colman.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And he survived the war did he?
BH: No.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
BH: No. And there was only one other person. You know, I’ve mentioned these names —
DK: Yeah.
BH: Who survived the war with me. There’s six of us, I believe. Another bomb aimer named George Jarmy and he, he survived it, but he had trouble with his marriage and he drove straight at a tree and killed himself.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: His mind you see. The mind’s a funny thing, isn’t it? Yeah.
DK: Definitely.
BH: I’m the only survivor. So I think there was six.
DK: So, six of you from Norwich.
BH: Yeah. Out of that parish.
DK: From that parish in Norwich.
BH: Well, it’s a big parish.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: In fact, Sprowston now is a town so you know how big it was.
DK: Yeah. Ok. So I’ll see if I can find anything on those two.
BH: Thank you very much. I don’t think there’s any more information I can give you.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I thought the address would be helpful.
DK: Yeah. I’ll see what I can do because they should be in the IBCC’s Losses Database there somewhere.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s just a question of getting enough information to find it.
BH: That’s right. To find them. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You’ve obviously got one here.
BH: I’ve got that thank you very much.
DK: No problem.
BH: I’ve said he’s, that’s the most important one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because as I said Richard was, he was a nice lad too. Quiet. Not like me [laughs]
DK: So your, your operations have gone into the end of 1944 and it looks like you’re, you’ve now converted to the Lancaster 3.
BH: Yeah.
DK: With the Packard Merlin engines.
BH: Yes.
DK: So you’ve done three daylight operations then in September ’44.
BH: Yeah.
DK: In fact, it looks like you’ve gone to Le Havre twice on one day. So, Eindhoven.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 3rd of September. 6th of September, Le Havre and then the 6th of September, again Le Havre. So, would you have gone twice in one day?
BH: No. I’ve got the dates wrong there or something.
[pause]
BH: Have you got that squad? Oh, it’s —
DK: It’s my, my mistake. It’s the 3rd of September is Eindhoven.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The 5th of September Le Havre.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then the 6th of September Le Havre again.
BH: We went to Stettin. That was one. You got that?
DK: Stettin [pause] Oh, here we go. Yeah. That’s the 29th of August.
BH: Yeah. That was a fateful trip for me.
DK: Why was that?
BH: It’s a bit delicate this, I’ve got to be careful how I put this. I was sort of, if you put it taken ill the day before, and we were down to go on ops. I went, went sick. I had dysentery.
DK: Oh.
BH: And he gave me some tablets. He said, ‘See me at briefing. I’ll give you some tablets.’ Well, they were useless and I stuck. And I mean I said that I was going to, you know where you have to go about twenty odd times a day you know, and there was, I never eat much. And I mean to be honest I shouldn’t have gone on that trip.
DK: No.
BH: Because I was a liability to the crew and when you come back I stuck it for six hours and I said to the skipper we were coming back over the coast I said, ‘Can I go to the elsan at the back?’ And I just moved one muscle because I sat with my legs crossed.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I was in a [pause] I landed in the mess.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: And Jimmy, Jimmy my wireless operator, you know he came up and he put his arm round me and got me out my turret, ‘Never mind, Bert,’ he said, ‘You stuck to your post in more ways than one.’ [laughs] And I went, I went back and cleaned myself up. I, I mean the navigator said, ‘You should never have gone.’
DK: No.
BH: He said —
DK: So that was the 29th of August 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You were in Lancaster Mark 3, 687.
BH: Nine hours. We cut the corners.
DK: I was just about to say it was nine hours not six. Nine hours to —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Operations to Stettin.
BH: Yeah. Well, six hours I stuck at my turret.
DK: Oh right. I’m with you. Right.
BH: And we cut the corners too.
DK: Right.
BH: Coming back, to get back.
DK: Get back. Right. So and it says here Stettin operation was the dock installations in support of the Russian offensive.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So it’s in support of the Russians.
BH: Well, they requested it didn’t they?
DK: So you’re last operation then is as I say the 6th of September 1944.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Le Havre. So you did thirty altogether.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, what, what was it, we talked about going off on the mission and then a bit about the missions themselves. What was it like when you came back and landed?
BH: Well, of course you get, it all depends. If it was a long trip you were, I mean I used to smoke then and those cigarettes were a Godsend. I mean, I mean I’ve often come back with my eyes bloodshot. Search. Search. Search. Search. And it’s pitch dark, you know. And when you get back of course you were all trooping all out together. Someone cracks a little joke or something. Some have a laugh. I mean, you were just whacked out after a long trip you know and you go for briefing and of course the first time we went they give you a pint of tea, and they have this little cask of rum. It’s naval rum, you know. Like treacle.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And I, and that of course, of course Jimmy who knew these WAAFs and instead of putting one tot in I went to bed pickled and I hate rum. That spoiled a good cup of tea. But then, then of course you go for a meal.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And then you go to bed. Sometimes, I said, but this Mark 3 I laid there because there was still the drumming in your, and I mean our navigator what, you know although we didn’t do many ops on that he went deaf. He had a hearing aid later on because he was right beside the air, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: But I mean the drumming in your ear, you know and you lay there and you think oh God. Eventually you go off and that’s it. Peace.
DK: So was it, as you were landing then is it a bit of a relief that you’re, you’re back again?
BH: Oh yes. It’s, it’s a funny, funny kind of war for the aircrew because one minute well to put it bluntly you’re trying to save your skin, and the next night you’re not on ops. You’re down town you know having a good booze up and chasing the girls sort of thing. You know what I mean? I’m being honest about it.
DK: Yeah. I was going to ask you what you did on your time off as it were, when you were? Did you go into town much?
BH: We went into Cambridge.
DK: In to Cambridge. Yeah.
BH: And we used to go in to I still remember the names of this [laughs] We used to, we found this pub in Lensfield Road. It’s called the Spread Eagle. And at that time she was an ex-lady what kept it, an ex-London actress. We found in the back room they had a piano because I played you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: The skipper played the guitar and of course once you got that, you know we were away because she, you know she used to say, I mean the skipper was I think he was twenty one over Stettin. So when we came back you know we had a party in there sort of thing.
DK: So your skipper spent his twenty first birthday —
BH: Over Stettin. Yeah.
DK: Over Stettin. Yeah.
BH: But I mean life in general, you know. In between its like, it’s like it’s one thing I said like this Jimmy [unclear] I once saw. I’d be sixteen or seventeen at the time. Something like that. He was running down, you know. I thought what is he running for? He was on leave. I was doing the same thing. Every second counted.
DK: Yeah.
BH: It didn’t matter. I mean, I mean I realise now why he was doing it, you know. He didn’t want to miss anything.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, so September ’44 then what did you go off to do then because you’d finished your tour? You’d only done the one tour then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So, I say only but you’ve done the one tour.
BH: Yeah.
DK: What did you do after that? Did you leave the squadron at that point?
BH: Yeah. They sent me, sent me up to, there’s nothing in there but they called it a rest camp way up in Scotland. Near a place called Nairn near Inverness. I was up there for a month until they decided what to do with me and I mean of course I come back and I got, I got some more leave. I got a telegram to, and a railway warrant to be posted to RAF Manby.
DK: Oh right.
BH: The one place I hated to go. I’d been taught at Manby, you know. Training Command. And coming off a squadron which was free and easy and then come to this very strict, you know. And of course what happened was there I finished up as, I mean at that time there was, it was a hell of a big camp.
DK: Right.
BH: There was three bomb aimer’s courses, three, all instructor’s courses, three air gunner’s instructor’s courses. I think it was one or two small arms instructor’s courses, because it was an Empire Air Armaments School.
DK: Right.
BH: So all we could do was get in to a kind of a wooden hut. We couldn’t get in the mess at all because it was so, you know cramped and then of course we were, we were once I’d sort of, they kept me there much to my disgust. But the, the thing I’d finished my service. I was there until I was demobbed. Then the air gunners, after about a year I think this is roughly the air gunners moved to Leconfield. The bomb aimers went somewhere else and the small arms, I don’t know what happened to them. We were left with nothing for a while and then all of a sudden we started to get these, it was suddenly become something else. Manby. Not the Empire Armament School. And we were getting officers in.
DK: Right.
BH: On a two year course. So we were, I mean it was only I think six of us. Four or six instructors including the flight lieutenant, you know, in charge of us.
DK: So, so were you actually instructing then?
BH: Yes.
DK: You were an instructor.
BH: Ground and air.
DK: Right.
BH: Anyway, we saw these, I mean it was flight lieutenants up to squadron leaders coming on these courses. Two year courses.
DK: Right.
BH: And I went in, well two of us went in to this gunnery officer in charge, you know. Our boss. I said, ‘Well, look, we’re instructing these — ’ I said, you know I was warrant officer by then.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I said, ‘We’re only warrant officers,’ I said, ‘How can we deal with a squadron leader?’ He said, ‘When you enter that room you are automatically a rank above them.’ ‘God,’ I said, ‘That’s a quick promotion.’ [laughs] But I mean they were fine, you know. I felt at ease.
DK: Yeah.
BH: With all the instructions we had.
DK: So as a warrant officer and a trainer.
BH: Yeah.
DK: You were telling the squadron leaders what to do.
BH: Well, they were, obviously a lot of them. We also got foreign. Polish pilots on the camp.
DK: Right.
BH: We had Belgians come. We had Norwegians and all sorts. But then we finished up with this, and that’s when I had left.
DK: So, so this is Number 1 Empire —
BH: Air Armaments School.
DK: Air Armaments School.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Number 1 Empire Air Armaments School based at RAF Manby.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I notice you, you were back on Wellingtons again.
BH: That’s right.
DK: So all the training there —
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was, was Wellingtons.
BH: Yeah.
DK: It’s all Wellingtons, isn’t it?
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were there right through to —
BH: Got demobbed.
DK: Warrant officer. And you were demobbed in 1945 presumably. Oh, 1946, sorry.
BH: Seven.
DK: 1947.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Quite right. Yeah. So you were at Manby and this other place through to —
BH: About two years wasn’t it?
DK: About two years, yeah. And you were just training then for two years.
BH: Yeah. I mean, I said at one time I never had any courses and I mean I’m an active person and I got myself attached to the photographic section, you know for something to do. And I’m very interested in that.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So yeah there was a corporal there. He said, ‘There should be a sergeant here,’ he said, ‘And another airman,’ he said. I’m short staffed.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll, I’ll come and help, you know. I’m glad to do something,’ you know. Oh, by the way, time I was there we had some, time I was in the photographic section they had some Italian prisoners of war.
DK: Right.
BH: And I had to go out on a, to take some photographs of a bombing sight at Saltfleetby, and I, God talk about the drive of your life. I mean Lincolnshire roads are not that clever up there. They’re windy. Anyway, they come back and it must have been three weeks later they all left. They weren’t much good anyway. The next thing I knew the station warrant officer called me in. He says, ‘I’ve got a job for you, Bert.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m in the photographic section.’ He said, ‘No. This is extra.’ So, I said, ‘Oh yeah?’ You know. But he’s a, he’s a nice chap you know. He’s one of us sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He was a time serving man. He said, ‘We’ve got eighteen German prisoners of war coming,’ he said. So I said, ‘Yeah.’ And he said, ‘And you’re in charge of them.’ So I had them ‘til, oh I don’t know how long for. I had to go down in the morning. Count them in. They could have walked out.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Because they were only in part of the camp.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And go down at night and check them all in. Any mail I took back to the station headquarters and they checked it all I suppose.
DK: And this was at Manby still, was it?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: And then one day the station warrant officer he says, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The German POWs are going.’ He said, ‘You’re taking them down to some camp near Sandy in Bedfordshire.’ Somewhere near. I can’t remember now. So I said, ‘How am I going to— ’ he said, ‘Oh, there’s a carriage booked at Louth. It’ll come in. There’s a whole carriage booked for you.’ So he said, ‘Here’s a rifle and —’ [laughs] And five, five bullets. I said, ‘Well, there’s eighteen of them. I shoot five and then — ’ [laughs] And also there, this is what I was saying when I started this talk.
DK: Yeah.
BH: The next thing we had, turned up I forgot to tell you this there was a Wellington crash and it caught a woman’s, I think it was a sort of a cottage.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And it killed her.
DK: Oh dear.
BH: I’d been flying and the tannoy went. ‘Warrant Officer Hammond report to the station warrant officer.’ So he said, ‘I’ve got a job for you, Bert,’ he says You’re on guard all night.’ He said, ‘You’ve got an airman there.’ he says, he says, ‘He’s bringing the truck around. You’ve got everything you want. Full the lot. Off you go.’ God, and it was cold and all.
DK: So you had to guard the crash site.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Of course the woman had been killed you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Were the crew killed as well or were they —
BH: No. They, they survived. There was, they were bomb aimers on.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: That’s when the bomb aimers were there. Joe got it again you see. Yeah. It was all good fun. I played football for my station so, you know I loved football.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And cricket.
DK: These, these Germans you were escorting then. Was this the first time you met Germans face to face?
BH: Yes.
DK: How did that make you feel as you had been obviously —
BH: I was.
DK: Flying above Germany just a few months before.
BH: I was a bit uncomfortable but because by then we began to know what we’d actually done you know, because I was a bit disgusted we were bombing houses.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Because we weren’t told that and I was a bit apprehensive because I thought well they’ll know more than anybody. And I was, I said they used to line up and they used to and I always felt there was one German there I didn’t know whether he was taking the mickey of me or not, you know. So I had one mate there. He was a prisoner of war. He was on that Long March.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: I think it was six hundred mile. He was on that so, and he was a prisoner of war. I said, ‘Would you mind coming with me, Cyril?’ I said, and I told him the reason why. He said, so anyway he stood. You know. I was counting them in and shouting out numbers and all that and he stood behind, well behind me and all of a sudden he let out in German and this fellow he was a warrant officer, a German well the equivalent anyway.
DK: Yeah.
BH: He swung to attention and there were no more trouble. But I felt he was taking the mickey out of me you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I didn’t know German but —
DK: No, but your, your colleague then who shouted out this German order —
BH: Did.
DK: Was, someone they were —
BH: That’s it. I took them back. I felt, I did feel sorry for them because it was a boiling hot day and I got to the railway station. I was met, you know. There was a truck to take you up to sign and you get your lunch there as well and as I was coming back I said, ‘What about the — ’ you know, because they were still my responsibility. But he said, ‘Oh, they’ll walk up.’ and of course I don’t know whether you know but the German prisoners of war kit bags are very, very big.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they were, they were on the side of the road whacked out, walking up. Nobody escorting them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: They all thought they were going home. They were going on the farms. Yeah. God, it was a boiling hot day. They were carrying these, you know. I mean I did have some photographs of the prisoners of war. They made a walk in village out of scrap.
DK: Right.
BH: All run by water. Beautifully made.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. I took photographs of it. Yeah.
DK: So, did you, did you stay in touch with your crew after the war then?
BH: Yes.
DK: All of them.
BH: Yeah. We’ve got, I’ve got some photographs here. One of my cleaners, well she’s my friend now. One of my little angels [laughs] There’s [pause] there’s my, that’s my demob book. Look at that. There’s, oh sorry [pause] there’s that’s the other gunner.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That’s the skipper. He went on to fly. It became his career and he flew second dickie to start with for BOAC, was it?
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BH: BOAC.
DK: BOAC.
BH: Long trips.
DK: Long trips. BOAC. Yeah.
BH: That’s, that’s my dad [laughs] wireless op, Jim. And that’s, that’s me. Long shorts.
DK: So what year would that have been taken then?
BH: Oh, I don’t know. That’s —
DK: There’s a —
BH: There’s my wife there with all the rest. But I had this book and I I found my, this Lanc 2 which we did all these seventeen ops in and it’s, I don’t know what I’ve done with it. I had it the other day. I forget things. And anyway he, he I bought him one because we met up before we met this. I knew where he lived and I made contact but that was with his brother.
DK: Right.
BH: It was his home address and he put me in contact with where he was living. And then we met in Stamford.
DK: Right.
BH: At the George at Stamford. And, and I took my book of this and he said, ‘Oh, my goodness me. Look at what’s in here, Bert.’ He said. ‘One of my trips,’ I forget where it was now. In America, South America. He said, ‘We ran into a thunderstorm,’ he said. He said, ‘I was second dickie,’ and he put it down he said, ‘And we were miles from the ruddy runway but we got away with it.’
DK: Right.
BH: But he said the aircraft was in there. Funny that isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Got the aircraft we flew on during the war, and he got the aircraft he was flying in civvy which he crashed in.
DK: Which he crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So how long was he with BOAC for then? Was he [unclear]
BH: Well, then he got married. His wife was here. She was an air hostess.
DK: Right.
BH: She could be up there. In those days they could speak several languages couldn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
BH: So he went on short haul. You know. Just Europe. He made his career out of it, you know.
DK: That’s Warner, isn’t it?
BH: Warner.
DK: Warner. Yeah.
BH: Yeah. But —
DK: So, so is this, probably really finish there but one sort of final question for you all these years later how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command and Bomber Command itself?
BH: Well, a funny thing it was [pause] I mean the next door neighbour’s daughter in law she was interested so I went to go around there for a meal and I had, I had to give her little lectures because she wanted to know. And after the war I didn’t want to know anything. My wife said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I’m going to see, “The Dam Busters.” Are you coming?’ So, I said, ‘No. I don’t want to.’ I wasn’t interested. I suppose as you get older you look back.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You don’t look forward too much, and I get more memories now and they keep coming back now. Something triggers something off in your mind, you know. You forget a lot but then you remember a lot, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I will, I will say this and I’ve said if I had to live again and the same situation come which I explained I’d do the same thing again. I would.
DK: Because you mentioned earlier about finding out what was happening in the bombing.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Do you see that differently now or is it something that you feel —
BH: I’ve come to terms with it.
DK: Right.
BH: Because people have said. I mean. Well they were, they’ve said, well, I should, well I should know this. They were bombing Norwich and they were bombing houses.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I said I was disappointed because we were told one thing yet we were doing another. That’s what I didn’t like, you know. We were misled. We thought we were bombing military targets. The only military targets we bombed was during the days.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You know during D-Day time.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Over Germany we just let them go didn’t we? I mean the famous saying, these, you know because when you’re going on the bombing run you’re straight and level until you’ve taken your flash you know. And of course the members of the crew were, ‘Let the ruddy things go.’ [laughs] It was a bit hot over these German cities.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So after, after you dropped the bombs then you were flying straight and level for the photo to be taken.
BH: The flash. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Then you —
DK: Photoflash. Yeah.
BH: Then we dived away. But we got caught in the master searchlight once, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And of course as soon as that comes on that’s radar controlled. About twenty other small ones come on and the skipper put the nose down and the bomb aimer threw out Windows by the buckets full. I gradually watched the beams disappear.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Normally once you’re caught, you’re caught.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So how, how was that? Was that quite a frightening experience then in the searchlights?
BH: I was never frightened once I was, you know once I [pause] I was more frightened in the build up to it. Do you know what I mean?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Nerves. Nerves in your tummy. But once you’re in the aircraft I always felt safe. It’s a funny thing isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
BH: You felt, though you weren’t really but I always felt there was something wrapped around me, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. I was lucky. I mean you get lots of better stories than mine. I was just an ordinary sort of person caught up in the war sort of thing, you know.
DK: Yeah. Ok then. That’s gone on for a while there but thanks for that.
BH: Well, I hope I’ve been some use.
DK: That’s been absolutely marvellous.
BH: The only other thing —
DK: Hang on. Yeah.
BH: The other thing I would like to say is during the war it was a great leveller of personnel. You could be all walks of life. I met some wonderful people. I played football with pros, and against them which I enjoyed every minute of that though I was bashed about [laughs ] because I wasn’t very weighty then. But I met at Manby, I met two people, well one person which actually changed part of my life. One of them was I can’t remember his name. I tried to find it. He was a French horn player.
DK: Right.
BH: Sergeant, oh God, isn’t it silly? I’ve got a photograph of all the instructors. He, he was nice to talk to because he, he was on a retainer for all these big orchestras and in fact he was on telly after the war. He —
DK: Right.
BH: He was then played with the orchestras and solos and that and then he was BBC judge on the, you know, “Young Musician of the Year.”
DK: Oh right.
BH: He was judge on the brass section.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And the other one what changed was a fellow called Ronnie Price. I went in to the mess one afternoon at four o’clock and of course my father taught me to play the piano but he wanted, he played all sort of semi classics, you know. He was, he taught music. And I heard this music that I thought was the radiogram, you know.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I got past the ante-room with the two doors like that. And, oh somebody is sitting at that piano because it was a good piano, you know. I went in and I thought, ‘He is playing that.’ Took a chair up, sat beside him and he stopped playing, you know. He said, ‘Oh, do you play?’ I said, ‘Oh, not like that.’ I said, ‘That’s beautiful.’ We became sort of friends, named Ronnie Price. I don’t know. You may be a bit too [pause] He was a pianist on, “Name That Tune.”
DK: Oh right. Yeah.
BH: Remember that do you?
DK: Yeah.
BH: And he was one of the top pianists in this country and abroad.
DK: Right.
BH: He had a wonderful career. He taught me no end about playing dance music. He opened doors which I never would have gone through.
DK: And that was that chance meeting in Manby.
BH: Chance meeting. He was the sound I was looking for. Like Glen Miller was looking for a sound.
DK: So was it, is that what you went into after the war then? Was it the music or —
BH: No. I played. No, I went, I went home to my own parents. My grandparents had a laundry. I didn’t know what I was going to do and I thought to myself well, my father said, ‘What are you going to do?’ My grandparents had, they’d wound it down a bit, ‘Why not take it up and build it up again?’ So I started on that but then the wife lost her father and her mother was totally invalid sort of thing in a way. Stone deaf and needed someone to be with her, you know. She was getting on. So I came up to Lincolnshire and I got a job at Fenland Laundries and then I sort of progressed through the ranks. Became a manager and that’s how I — but I played. Over the years I played part time. Not here. Never here.
DK: Right.
BH: I packed it in then. I played in holiday camps, in little bands.
DK: Right.
BH: Night clubs. I mean it’s all down to Ronnie Price. He taught me.
DK: Yeah.
BH: All sorts of [pause] well, it’s training you could not buy.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. All little techniques.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I’ve got, I’ve got no end of his. My cleaner friend she’s here this morning. Took me to the doctors. She, I’ve tried to get some CDs because he’s no longer with us now, Ronnie.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BH: And she’s found them.
DK: Oh wow.
BH: I’ve got about four now. So, I’ve got all his music to listen to.
DK: Wonderful.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Ok then. Well, I’ll stop the recording there.
BH: Yeah.
DK: That’s been absolutely marvellous but thanks so much for your time.
BH: Well, I hope that’s been some use.
DK: Oh, you’ve been a lot of use. It’s been absolutely marvellous.
BH: Well, it’s, it’s nice of you to call on me.
DK: I’m more than happy to be here. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bert Hammond. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHammondBF180904, PHammondBF1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:25:50 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Hammond was born and brought up in Norwich. He was a grocer’s assistant and an air cadet at the start of the war. He recalls bombing attacks on Norwich and a lone aircraft machine gunning female workers leaving the Coleman’s Factory. In 1943, at the age of 18, he volunteered for the RAF as an air gunner. His initial training took place at RAF Bridlington and RAF Bridgnorth. He was posted to No. 4 Air Gunnery School, RAF Morpeth, in October 1943. His training included the use of cine-guns and target drones, and flying took place in Avro Ansons.
Posted to 26 Operational Training Unit at RAF Wing, he was formed into a crew to fly Wellingtons as a rear gunner. On one training flight, an engine failed on take-off and the pilot managed to complete a circuit before carrying out a belly landing. As Bert had learned morse code as an air cadet, he was tasked to take over as the wireless operator if necessary, therefore, moved to the mid-upper turret to be closer.
In 1944 he was posted to RAF Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire, initially with 1678 Heavy Conversion Unit to convert to Lancasters, and then to 514 Squadron as operational crew. His first operation was on the 30th of May to Boulogne. He describes a number of operations over France and Germany. On the 12th of June during an operation to Gelsenkirchen, they were hit by anti-aircraft fire putting their instruments out of action. They were diverted to RAF Woodbridge for an emergency landing.
Bert describes the differences in performance between the Mark II and Mark III Lancasters, and what happened during the day of operations. He completed his thirty operations in September 1944 and, after a period of leave, was posted to RAF Manby as an instructor with No. 1 Empire Air Armament School. He explains how he felt about the bombing of Germany, the loss of friends, and how the war was a great leveller of persons. He was demobilised in 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
England--Tyne and Wear
France--Abbeville
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Poland--Szczecin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944-03-15
1944-03-19
1944-05-30
1944-06-12
1944-06-21
1944-07-20
1944-07-25
1944-08-29
1944-09-06
1678 HCU
26 OTU
514 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Boston
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Lancaster Mk 3
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Manby
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wing
RAF Woodbridge
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/993/10624/PKettleboroughML1801.1.jpg
efc647dc6becbc47519bf8e76f1d5de7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/993/10624/AKettleboroughML180905.2.mp3
a1f21b78fd5d4533acef476141e5645c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kettleborough, Mick
Michael Kettleborough
M L Kettleborough
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Michael 'Mick' Kettleborough (b. 1936). He grew up in Woodhall Spa.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Kettleborough, ML
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: That’s alright. Don’t worry. You’d be surprised. Some interviews have barking dogs and cats jumping on me and all sorts of things so don’t worry about that. What would be useful if that’s, if you’re all going to chip in at some point, you’re all quite welcome to, if you could all say your names. Is that ok?
AH: I won’t say anything.
[laughter]
MK: Yeah.
DK: Just, just for future references as to who was there. So, I’ll just start this. I’m David Kavanagh working for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing do you mind me calling you Mick?
MK: Correct.
DK: Yes. Ok.
MK: I’m known as Mick.
DK: Mick Kettleborough, at his home on the 5th of September 2018 and with me I have —
AH: Amanda Holland, which is Mick’s daughter.
VK: Valerie Kettleborough. That’s Mick’s wife.
LH: Lucy Holland, Mick’s granddaughter.
DK: And the dog?
LH: Is Merlin.
AH: Merlin.
DK: Merlin, the dog. Ok. Well, I’ll, I’ll put that there. If I keep looking over, I’m just making sure it’s still going.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So, if we can start off then perhaps you could recap what you were saying. Where you were born and —
MK: I was, I wasn’t born in Willoughby House. My father, my stepdad bought Willoughby House when I was about three.
DK: Right.
MK: He had a, he had a little practice in Woodhall. Down, down Witham Road and he moved from Witham Road to Willoughby House when I was about three and then it’s all a bit hazy for a start. And then when I was about four years old, we, my mum had the choice. She could either take Army or Air Force which was the Air Force was like a Lancaster pilot. She could, and she chose to take the RAF boys.
AH: Because she had a spare room, hadn’t she?
DK: Right.
MK: Because we had a spare room you see. Now, the thing is I can vaguely, we had one or two come and I can vaguely remember they didn’t last long so you can imagine what happened to them poor devils. We had one I can remember called Len Swire. I can’t remember what he did but mum’s favourite was Jack Gibson.
DK: Right.
MK: He was a, he was Canadian.
DK: Right.
AH: And he’s on the Bomber Command Memorial.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MK: Yes. He’s on the Memorial. He’s also, he’s buried at Coningsby.
DK: Do you know where he was based then? Which airfield he was based at?
MK: Pardon?
VK? He was based at Woodhall, wasn’t he?
MK: He was based at Coningsby.
VK? Yeah. Coningsby.
DK: Right. Ok.
MK: Yeah. Based at Coningsby.
DK: So, the airmen that stayed with your, your mother then they were mostly from Coningsby?
MK: They would be all Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah.
MK: All what they called Bomber Boys and Jack Gibson, he was, I think he was mum’s favourite. And as far as I can remember I was told afterwards that sometime in November, what was it? 1942 would it be? Jack Gibson was shot. He was killed when? Nineteen forty —
AH: Lucy can tell you that.
LH: I’m just trying to look —
MK: Yeah. Just, just let Lucy have a —
LH: Carry on. You carry on.
MK: And he was, he came and asked our mum, mum told me years after, he came and asked our mum if he could have an early Christmas.
DK: Right.
MK: And she said, ‘Why do you want an early Christmas?’ He said, ‘There’s something big coming off. We’ve not had a briefing yet but something big is coming off. I’m not allowed, I don’t know so I can’t say but I shall be confined. I shall be confined to the aerodrome for quite a period.’ And apparently, it all came out afterwards that they were knocking the hell out the Ruhr Valley.
DK: Right.
MK: And the bomber boys went to concentrate at that time on the Ruhr Valley and, when was Jack killed?
LH: The 18th of December ’41.
MK: 18th of December 1941.
LH: That’s what we got. [Coningsby was said?]
DK: Right.
MK: So, Mum said yeah, so will remember everything was rationed in them days. Everything was rationed strictly.
DK: Yeah.
MK: So anyway, mum rustled up what we, what she could get and he had his Christmas.
DK: Right.
MK: And then he went. He went, he went back to Coningsby or where ever he was and mum never saw him again.
DK: So —
MK: But —
DK: Sorry. Go on.
MK: The thing is this he gave mum some of his that what they called valuables. Perhaps a watch, ring.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Maybe he had, I don’t know a wallet and such thing anyways. And then he was, a telegram came as far as I can remember being told that, saying that Jack had been killed in action.
DK: Right.
MK: And the story is after, the story afterwards what my sister told me I think my sister was very sweet on, on Jack Gibson and apparently, he came back badly shot to bits. Apparently, his radio, the radio was still working, so the radio operator got in touch with Coningsby. Asked him to land on Woodhall landing ground.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they didn’t want to blow up the main runways and he was coming back over the North Sea and he said to his crew, ‘As soon as you hit land,’ he said, ‘Jump. They said, ‘No way. We’ve done so many missions with you.’
DK: Yeah.
MK: ‘We’re sticking with you.’ And apparently, he put the plane down. It blew up.
DK: And was all the crew killed as far as you were aware?
MK: No. They was all killed. But I don’t know the names of the rest of the crew.
DK: No.
MK: I don’t know their names.
AH? That would be found outable.
DK: We should be able to find that. I’ll have a look in a minute because it should be on the IBCC’s database of the losses.
MK: Yeah.
DK: If we find his name it will actually list the rest of his crew.
MK: Yeah. Well, he, he, that’s the story I can remember. And then of course Jack, apparently the, well my sister told the story. Told it, that the MPs came to collect his things and they said to our mum, ‘Where are his valuables?’ Mum said, ‘I haven’t got any.’ He said, ‘You’re lying.’ She said, ‘I’m not lying.’ ‘He’s minus —’ this, that and the other, ‘And we want his diary.’
MK: Yeah.
MK: Mum said, ‘I’ve got nothing.’ And they said to my dad, ‘You realise we can search your house.’ Dad said, ‘No way.’ And that’s it. ‘You’re not searching the house.’ And they said, ‘Well, we can do.’ They said, ‘Well, you’d better come up with his valuables.’ They said, ‘We haven’t got any. We haven’t got any.’ And time progressed and mum wrote to his parents in Canada because you’ve got to remember everything was censored.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: That’s why she daren’t tell them.
DK2: Right.
MK: That she’d got some of his artifacts.
DK: No.
MK: She had got the diary and they were hidden somewhere away. She got it. She wrote to his parents in Canada. They wrote a lovely letter back saying fair enough and after, after things, after the war time mum did send them his things.
DK: Right.
MK: And they did write back and said thank you very much. And then there was no more contact made. No more contact made at all. But we used, Jack’s the one. Jack Gibson’s the one that stands out.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because being Canadian he used to take me up to his bedroom and he’d go, he’d got tins of salted nuts. Salted peanuts.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And he had, sometimes he had a bar of chocolate [laughs] because we didn’t. I didn’t know what chocolate was because it was rationed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You didn’t get that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And that’s, that’s the story of, he is buried in Coningsby cemetery. Down the bottom end.
DK: Right.
MK: And he’s on, he’s on the Memorial at Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right. Yeah.
MK: Not that he took part in the Dambusters raid but he was, it’s got the list of names, hasn’t it?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: Not that, he wasn’t attached to that. That was a, we don’t, we never had anybody, Petwood Hotel was the officer’s mess as you know.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Do you want me to carry on?
DK: Yeah. I was going to ask. His personal possessions then. Were they then sent to his family in Canada? Or did your mother hang on to them.
MK: My mum, my, you see my mum knew she, my mum knew that because she wouldn’t tell them.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Or made out she didn’t know and they apparently said, well he had got no wallet on his body. He’d got no, no rings, no watches. Well, they just say that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But mum had. He left them with mum.
DK: Right.
MK: Mum daren’t post them in the wartime because she knew she was being watched.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: And she knew she’d be censored.
DK: Yeah.
MK: She knew that all post in them, most of the post in them days you had to be very careful what you wrote.
DK: I’m sure. Yeah.
MK: You had to be very careful what you said over the telephone if you had a telephone and that sort of thing. But after the war, after the war mum did get in touch with his parents and they was, his, what he left with our mum was sent.
DK: It was sent to Canada.
MK: Yeah. It was sent.
DK: I’ll just pause there.
[recording paused]
DK: So, for the recording then I’ll just speak to this from the Losses Database it’s Jack Lloyd Gibson. He was twenty nine years old. He died on the 18th of December 1941 flying on board Avro Manchester L7490.
MK: Yeah. That’s the one.
DK: Coded OFU, from 97 Squadron and is now buried in Coningsby Cemetery and all the crew were killed including Wing Commander DF Balsdon. So, he’s on the Memorial there in [pause] Lincoln.
MK: Yeah.
DK: On panel number 39. And his service number is R60253, Royal Canadian Air Force. So, the reason for loss is damaged by flak during a daylight raid and on return the aircraft stalled and crashed trying to land.
VK: Sad. To have done all those miles and then come home to that.
DK: Yeah.
AH: To get killed on home soil.
DK: So, he actually came from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
MK: That’s right.
DK: Ok. Thanks for that.
MK: You see the thing is with Woodhall, around there we was, Lancasters was all over the place because they used to be doing air tests. You had Spitfires, Hurricanes doing all the bits and pieces.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And —
DK: So, you can personally remember all the aircraft then all flying about.
MK: Well, you got you didn’t take any notice of the Lancasters.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they was, they was all the time doing air tests. They were doing low level flying across the fens and I mean bloody low. Pardon my language. They were doing low flying across the fens because, like practicing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You didn’t take any notice of them. I mean, you might, you see my dad being, being a dentist he was allowed extra petrol because a lot of people in the outlying fens couldn’t get to him if they had raging toothache or —
DK: Yeah.
MK: So, he had to go to them. So, he was allowed extra petrol. And sometimes if I was lucky, he would take us with him. Take me with him and it was daunting to see a Lancaster coming about two or three hundred feet above the fens but you took no notice and you, because —
DK: You got —
MK: At night time —
DK: You got so used it.
MK: On a quiet night when they was all, I mean Coningsby is a fair way from Woodhall and I’m not exaggerating.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Especially on Woodhall landing ground on a still, on a still winter’s night you could hear them revving up to take off.
MK: Not one. Not two but perhaps thirty, forty of them and if the wind, the wind was a certain way they used to take off over Woodhall and I tell you what, they were scraping the house roofs because they were fully loaded. I mean two thousand gallons of aviation fuel on board.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Plus bomb load and so sometimes when we went out around about I mean the woods in Woodhall right down to Kirkby on Bain were absolutely, well they’re still finding things. It was absolutely full of ammunition. Crates and crates of bombs. Not detonated. Crates and crates of bombs all all with, all camouflaged netting on them.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Over them and they’re still finding bits and pieces down in some, down the wood near the cemetery. I can’t remember now the name of that wood. Down near the cemetery where my brother is. Where my brother is buried.
VK: I think it’s still cordoned off isn’t it? For some reason. I think.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They keep finding various things.
MK: They’re finding stuff.
DK: They found some mustard gas.
VH: That’s right. That’s right.
MK: They’re still finding stuff down there.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Yeah. And a lot of the, a lot of the roadsides. Dad used to go and visit a family called Eldon’s in New York. Their daughter was in service with mum and as you went down there and back all the road sides were stacked. Crates and crates and crates. Bombs. One of the woods in Woodhall, back of Coronation Avenue. That was at one point that was absolutely full of petrol cans. Thousands. And they seemed to come and then they disappeared because we used to go and play. I used to go to play in the wood.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And all of a sudden, ‘Oi boy. Boy. Out. Go on. Off you go. Go and play somewhere else.’
DK: Right.
MK: So we, we used to run off. And then —
DK: So, looking back on it and obviously that time you’re looking at it from a child’s point of view. Was it, for a child an exciting time or could you really understand what, what the dangers were and what was really going on?
MK: No.
DK: Or was it just a lot of fun?
MK: You see the, no because it was [pause] it’s like when you’re young you, life’s a play.
AH: It’s like it’s your way. You’ve never known a different way of life really.
MK: No. You see it was —
AH: That you could remember before, could you?
MK: You see, we had, we had the Gordon Highlanders was based in Woodhall. Army. We had the Enniskillens. We had the, the Arnhem boys went from the Royal Hotel.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Which got flattened. Which got bombed. We used to go and play in the rubble which we never, I mean we never should have done but we use to play.
DK: Is that the hotel where the Memorial is now? On the corner.
MK: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MK: That was the Royal Hotel.
DK: Yeah. Right.
MK: The Victoria Hotel got burned down. The Royal Hotel took a direct hit.
DK: Right.
MK: To get to know more about that that what’s his name [unclear] . The chap who writes about Woodhall.
DK: Yeah. I know who you mean.
MK: Yeah. He’s got the story of all that, but anyway, we used to, the Royal Hotel, that took a direct hit. I don’t think there was a window left down the Broadway. All our windows got blew out. My bedroom ceiling come down. I screamed because I couldn’t get the bedroom door open. So, my mum and dad at that particular time was in London. Dad was on business in London so there was only me and my sister. She come and barged the door open and snatched me and we went downstairs. The next thing some of the Army boys were there. One was called Tom. A big fella. They brewed some tea up and went out to clear the glass up. And we couldn’t shut the doors because they’d, they’d blown open.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And the Army boys I can remember the Army boys coming in and Tom was there. They brewed tea and they helped us and my sister clean the glass up and then it all quietened down and she said, ‘We’d better go to bed.’ I kept saying, ‘Pat.’ ‘What?’ ‘There’s a bit of glass in the bed.’ So, we had to go around picking glass out of the bed. And then the next morning we found out that Dr Armour’s, are you interested in this or not?
DK: Yes. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. I’m just making sure it’s —
MK: Dr Armour’s place was badly damaged. Sleight’s house next door. I can’t remember now. Sleight’s house next door was very badly damaged and I think Mr Sleight was killed.
DK: Right.
MK: And apparently his wife died a few months later of a broken heart.
DK: Oh dear.
MK: That’s and there was Goodyear’s, A Churches, the butchers over the road. A Churches. Well, the whole of Broadway. I don’t think there was a pane of glass left.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they really shook Woodhall they did but that’s, there was no there was only, I think there was only one person was killed.
DK: Right.
MK: Which was lucky enough.
AH: And Auntie Pat, dad’s sister, she did tell me that after that particular night Lord Haw Haw went on the radio and apologised to his friends in Woodhall Spa.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Really?
MK: Lord Haw Haw didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
MK: He didn’t want any damage on Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But he used to, he used to preach propaganda. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
MK: I can’t remember what was said but what, what I can remember was my dad he brought a sophisticated wireless for that particular time.
DK: Right.
MK: And on a nice night Churchill’s speech on a nice night he would turn it up loud, open the windows and all the soldiers used to sit on the lawn.
DK: Yeah.
MK: We had a lawn full of soldiers sitting and standing listening to Churchill’s - —
DK: Speeches. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Speeches. And I can remember one particular night my dad come to fetch me up for some reason and he took me out, he took me down the stairs on the front lawn and there was wave after wave, after wave of enemy bombers and I heard my dad say to my mum, ‘By God, Lincoln’s copping it tonight.’ But it wasn’t. It was Coventry.
DK: Oh right.
MK: Wave after wave of bombers.
DK: Yeah.
MK: The ack ack guns were all, on the coast were all opening up. The ack ack guns on Coningsby and Woodhall. They were all, they were all barking away. You could hear them. Whether they hit anything I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But that was, that was the night that Coventry copped it.
DK: Right. And you can well remember that then and vividly remember the aircraft going over.
MK: Oh, God. I can remember the aircraft. The aircraft. Yeah. And you see at night time it was dense blackout. I went [pause] My, I went to, I was, I think it was a chap, I can’t think of his name. Clive. His first name was Clive. He was my age and I think he had a birthday party and I think I was invited to the birthday party and that would be after school.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And my sister came to fetch me and I was terrified because Woodhall, you couldn’t see. I couldn’t see you. Blackout. It was, November. Pitch black. And I was frightened because you couldn’t see.
DK: Yeah.
MK: There was the odd Army lorry going by with the dipped lights. There was people about but you couldn’t see. You couldn’t see who they were. And thank God my sister knew where she was going because I wouldn’t have done. I just got disorientated because it was that, that pitch dark. That was the blackout.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You, you didn’t show. If you had the slightest chink of light in any, you got a bang on the door. The ARP. ‘Get that bloody light out. There’s a war on.’ And you did as you [laughs] You did.
DK: Did it. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: And that was the sort of thing that happened and we used to play. We used to have games. One of, one of the favourite games was when we saw a train coming, we used to run down to the station and then in those days there was a bridge over the Broadway.
DK: Right.
MK: So, we used to run up on the bridge and hang over the rail so when the train came by you got covered in smoke. So, you got all smuts. You’d got all the, well that was the highlight of the day that was. Things like that.
DK: Not like that now though, is it? Kids, kids don’t entertain themselves like that.
MK: Yeah. If you think I’m going off course.
DK: No. No.
MK: You just let me know. And —
DK: And if I could take you back a bit you said your parents obviously took in the RAF men as, as lodgers there. After Gibson died there, did they take in any more?
MK: I don’t think mum did. I think, I think mum put her foot, I think, I think, I think mum was very very fond of Jack Gibson.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because he was, what I can remember of him he was a lovely chap. He was because he gave me salted peanuts [laughs] And you see things like that, things stick in your mind. We lived in Willoughby House. Across the road was the Methodist Church. This end of the Methodist church was an Army cookhouse.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Was an Army cookhouse. And I went home for a meal one day and I said to mum, ‘I’m not hungry.’ And my mum said, ‘Why?’ ‘I’ve had my dinner.’ Where?’ ‘In the cookhouse.’ ‘You’ve had your dinner in the cookhouse.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘What did you eat it off?’ ‘They put an oilcloth down. A bit of rag down for me. Like a dishcloth.’ ‘You did?’ ‘Yeah.’ And anyway, that got stopped. I wasn’t allowed to do that anymore.
DK: You didn’t do that again.
MK: No. And when, when the cookhouse got a delivery of canned meat, tinned meat, sort, sort of corned beef, Spam and all that sort of thing coming in tins Tom used to come across with his apron on and he was holding his hand like that. ‘Here you are mam. Here’s a tin of bully beef. Here’s a tin of Spam. Keep it quiet. Don’t, not a word.’ And off he’d go and they’d bring us this and then the bread lorry used to come. A big lorry full of bread and they used to have a chain. A chain across inside. And in, in the actual cookhouse there was a massive coal range that they used to cook on and there was some field kitchens outside.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Where they used to put all the vegetables in and stir it around with a stick. And yeah, it was, it was good. It was good times and it was, it was good times actually. Well, it was. It was good times for us.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because we didn’t know.
DK: [unclear]
MK: And you know, any different.
DK: When the war’s come to an end and I know rationing went on for a bit longer but do you think that period that you were growing up has in any way affected you? About how you feel about food and waste and that sort of thing. Do you —
MK: Well, you see you ate what you was given.
DK: Do you think about that now?
MK: You ate what you was given because of rationing. I had a gran, my grandad he was head forester and gamekeeper on the Hotchkins estate.
DK: Right.
MK: So we had plenty of rabbits. You had plenty of rabbits because meat was rationed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: If you got a bit of beef, if you got a bit of beef you were lucky. So therefore you only had, everything was rationed. Tightly rationed. So if you had, if grandad shot some rabbits we were lucky.
DK: Yeah.
MK: If someone killed a pig it was shared. In those days it was shared out. So we actually, I’ll put it this way you ate what was you was given and if you didn’t you went without. There was not like there was today. If you go in, ‘I don’t want that, mum. Can you cook this?’ No. It was was put on your plate.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: You either ate it or you went without so you actually ate it.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Whatever it was and you and it was like you had a lot of greens. Everybody grew greens. Eggs were very very scarce. But people had the black market. People had chickens and the black, and you used to say perhaps, ‘I’ll give you half a dozen eggs for a bit of corn for the chickens.’ And all that sort of thing went on. But no, you didn’t actually. No. It didn’t. The war didn’t actually worry me. You got, you got used to seeing the Army about and the big Army lorries and I tell you we had the Gordon Highlanders. That was the highlight because on a, some Sundays they had a full parade with full pipe band. Am I boring you?
DK: No. No. I’m just making sure it’s still going. Keep going. Don’t worry.
MK: We had. We had that. They used to come down Woodhall with a full pipe band.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Drums and band. And that used to be the church parade.
DK: Right.
MK: Well, I used to run like hell to the end of Iddesleigh Road to watch them coming. You’d stand and wave to them you see. Not that they acknowledged you because they couldn’t. And that used to be church parade. And I can’t think who was billeted in the Golf Hotel. I can’t remember who it was. Anyway, I got to know one or two. I got the Golf Hotel car park as it is now.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Was the parade ground and I used to get woke in the morning because the blasted bugler used to stand right at the end of our garden blowing Reveille. So, some days I used to get up some times and draw the blackout back and peep out in the daylight and you’d see them out there doing their PT. As time progressed, they’d be on there doing rifle, rifle drill and all that sort of thing. I got to know one or two of them and I got, I used to sneak in to the Golf Hotel up in to the bedrooms and the soldiers took no notice of me. They used to show me how to clean a 303 rifle.
DK: Yeah.
MK: I didn’t get, and they used to show me how to polish the buttons. Put those things on a button.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Polish all the brass buttons and blanco the belts and spats. You know the —
DK: Yeah.
MK: Spats. And how they used to bull the boots up. They used to go, I learned that at a very early age. I used to say to mum I’ve been to watch them bulling their boots and spit and pad. I used to go up and they’d be sitting out. The only thing was if somebody important was coming, an officer or a sergeant, ‘Scarper boy, quick.’
DK: Yeah.
MK: ‘Go and hide.’ So, I used to go and hide and when they’d gone I’d go back again [laughs]
DK: So —
MK: I’d go back again.
DK: So, when the war has ended did it seem a bit strange that all this life ended without all the soldiers there and the bases closing and —
MK: Well, it was surprising how quick Woodhall changed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Back of St Hugh’s School, to the side of St Hugh’s School there was loads of, loads of Nissen huts with slab paths for the Army boys, and there was a lot more stationed up Horncastle Road.
DK: Right.
MK: That’s where the prisoner of war camp was. Up Horncastle Road on Tor o moor, on Roughton Moor. That was where it was. No. It was, you sort of, it’s funny really. No. It never made any impression on us but you were sorry too. I mean you’d been used to seeing a mass of khaki.
DK: Yeah.
MK: I mean if you were lucky enough if there was [unclear] film on at the Kinema in the Woods because that kept going.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: Mam said, ‘Would you like to go?’ ‘Yes, please.’ So, and you sat in deck chairs and there used to be all the Army boys in there. I mean, you could hardly see the screen through fag smoke and some of them were sleeping and some of them were smoking. It was, yeah it was good fun.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Good fun. It was. No, it didn’t have any, no it was, it was surprisingly quick how things seemed to get back to normal.
DK: Yeah. Although it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t be a normality that you would have been used to.
MK: No, because rationing was still on after the war, yeah. I think it was 1950 before proper rationing was stopped.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And we used to have to make our own entertainment. I mean I had a whip and top and I got a hoop from somewhere. A bit of a stick and a hoop so you played with that. You’d spend hours playing with that because there was no traffic about. Used to go up the Broadwalk. Up and down the Broadway. You wouldn’t today. With a hoop and your whip and top.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And then living down Iddesleigh Road there, there was some railway gates. I was out there one day and this woman was struggling to get through the hand gates with a wheelchair so of course I went and helped. ‘Oh, you are kind.’ She gave me a penny. I thought, Christ I’ve got a penny. So, I went and told my mum, ‘I’ve just been given a penny.’ ‘How?’ ‘A lady gave me a penny.’ So, I thought, right, I’d wait for the old dears to come down from the Spa baths and I used to open the gate for them. Sometimes I got a penny. Sometimes I got tuppence so, and I used to scoot around to Waterhouse’s bakehouse and get two ha’penny buns and they were like that. Two ha’penny buns. And things like that all stick in your mind. I mean Johnny Wield. He lived in that, he lived in what is now the Woodhall Museum.
DK: Right.
MK: And he used to loan out bath chairs for the people at the Spa baths and things like that. He was also a watch repairer so I used to, and I used to go around to see him and if I was good, he would let me stand and watch him repair a watch. And then you’d go outside and he’d be greasing, and you’d go outside and he’d be greasing the wheels on the wheelchairs in places like. A very, very nice chap, Johnnie Wield. A very well read, very clever man and things like that stick in, stick in your mind.
DK: What do you feel now? Presumably you’ve been back to Woodhall Spa since. What do you feel when you go back there now?
MK: Nostalgia. Woodhall always had a pull on me.
DK: Right.
MK: I live in Barnet. I married a Barnet girl. This is my home.
DK: Right.
MK: But when I used to go back to see my brother and relations at Woodhall I wanted to go. I wasn’t made to go. I wanted. I still want to go.
DK: Does it —
MK: Amanda still, my daughter very took up with Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
AH: We like going to Woodhall.
DK: Yeah. Does it feel like home?
MK: And Amanda —
DK: Does it feel like home then?
MK: No. Because it’s not like home there.
DK: No. No.
MK: It’s not like home anymore because there’s nobody I know.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
MK: I mean all my uncles, I mean my mum was one of, my mum was one of one, two, three, four, five. My mum was one of eight. There was four, five, six. I think there was four boys. Or was it five boys and three girls? There may have been five boys. Anyway, there was eight. So, they’ve all passed away. Moving away from Woodhall I mean I was out with my brother one day. We were going to the [unclear] for a drink and this posh car stopped and my brother went across and was talking to him. So when, when my brother come back, I said, ‘Who the hell was that?’ He said, ‘That’s your cousin.’ Cousin so and so. You see, you don’t know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Because you’ve moved on.
DK: So, you moved to Barnet then.
MK: No. I moved to Stamford.
DK: Stamford. Right. Ok.
MK: Dad sold up. Dad sold up in Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And he bought a place in Bourne.
DK: Right.
MK: He didn’t like it. So apparently this little shop down the High Street became vacant in Stamford. He went and bought it. My mum, she wanted a wool and baby linen shop.
DK: Yeah.
MK: So he bought this. It was called Rs and Lee, and they did babywear, knitting, all that sort of thing. So my dad bought that for mum.
DK: Right.
MK: And it kept him occupied. It kept mum occupied. My sister, she used to work for [unclear] the chemist in Woodhall.
DK: And what, what career did you go into then? What were you doing?
MK: And I left, when I was, what? I was eleven and a half when I came to Stamford so I did my last four and a half years at Stamford School.
DK: Right.
MK: And then I never [pause] I hated school. On my report it was lack of attention. You know, if somebody were playing football outside I used to sit and watch it.
DK: I think I’ve got something similar.
MK: Never mind. As we and so I finished and I went into I always wanted to go in to poultry.
DK: Right.
MK: I fancied poultry. So, when I left school, I went into, I worked on a big poultry farm and then the boss, I was there seven years. Thoroughly enjoyed it, and the boss decided to sell up. He wanted, he wanted to retire. Then I went on different farms.
DK: Right.
MK: And then I got eventually went in to the, got in to the building trade.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MK: And I spent the rest of my life in the building trade but no its, I’ll tell you there’s a lot of things that if you really sit and think about it in Woodhall you could, certain things come to your mind.
DK: I was going to say we’ll probably wrap up there. I think we’ve got most of that period. I’ll ask finally how do you look back on your childhood now in Woodhall Spa, and all that you saw and the experience of the change of wartime?
MK: I enjoyed it. I knew there was a war on. I know things were tight but I had a carefree youth because there was no, no pressure like today. I mean you made your own entertainment.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Dark nights you only had one fire to sit around. There was no central heating. You had. You had a, you sat around a coal fire.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Or whatever you got hold of to burn and you played games. You played Snakes and Ladders. You played, you played Lexicon and you played Draughts. Your parents played with you.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: It was a family concern and then some nights I mean good God I mean right up to being ooh nine, ten you was in bed by 7 o’clock and your bedroom was pitch dark because it was all black out. You couldn’t, you couldn’t see what was going on outside. I mean, you see in those days, in the 1940s you had double summer time.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: The men were still working in the fields at 11 o’clock at night.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And that, as I say you went to bed early. You played games and if it was, if it was summertime you were allowed to play out on the lawn a little while. You weren’t allowed outside the gate. I was allowed to play on the lawn a little while and then you went in. You was washed, night clothes on and bed. That was you settled for the night. You woke up occasionally. You heard the planes. You heard Lancasters taking, you heard Lancasters going over and that sort of thing. We used to take no notice.
DK: Yeah.
MK: It was part and parcel of life. I mean as I said you’d be playing outside and you’d see Lancasters doing an air test but you never, you never looked. Now, Christ if you see one it’s an event.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You’d go miles to see a Lancaster now.
DK: Yes. That’s true. Ok then. I think we’ll pause and stop it there. That’s marvellous. Thanks very much for that. I’ll stop the recorder now but thanks. Thank very much.
[pause]
MK: I mean, I could tell you little bits and pieces.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mick Kettleborough
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-09-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKettleboroughML180905, PKettleboroughML1801
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Pending review
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00:38:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Michael Kettleborough lived in Woodhall Spa during the war. His mother billeted RAF crew members in her home. One of them Jack Gibson asked for an early Christmas as there were some big operations coming up. Shortly before Christmas 1941 the Manchester in which he was flying was hit by flak and crash landed at RAF Woodhall Spa and he and his crew killed. Jack left personal items and valuables with Michael’s parents who duly returned them to Jack’s parents in Canada after the war. One night in August 1943 an enemy landmine was dropped on the town damaging properties, destroying the Royal Hotel and causing casualties.
Temporal Coverage
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1941-12-18
1942
1943-08
Contributor
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Julie Williams
97 Squadron
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
home front
killed in action
Lancaster
military living conditions
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/994/10625/PMasonAE1801.1.jpg
5aedc13910da354d8b89320351ae81db
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/994/10625/AMasonAE181023.2.mp3
efa3bb5397a48a6ce2df16b26b5e9996
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mason, Bert
Albert Edward Mason
A E Mason
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bert Mason (1925 - 2020). He flew operations as an air gunner with 195 Squadron and Air Gunner with 195 Squadron and served on Earl Mountbatten's staff.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-10-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mason, AE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing – do you like to be known as Bert?
BM: Bert.
DK: Can I call you Bert? Bert Mason at his home on the 23rd of October 2018. So if I just put that down there. I might keep looking over. I’m just making sure it’s still going in case, the batteries don’t run out or anything.
BM: So it’s operating.
DK: It’s operating, yeah.
[Other]: Would you like a table or something?
DK: No, no I think it’ll be all right.
BM: I’ll just move some things over.
DK: It might be better if I just sort of point it at you. What I wanted to do is just move that as it’s electrical and might interfere. Okay, if I could start then Bert, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BM: Well, I joined at seventeen and three months so there wasn’t a lot to do. In actual fact the history of it is interesting. I applied for a place in the local grammar school, called you know, King John’s College, and I passed. And then the Luftwaffe came along and demolished it. So at that point I thought well what do I do now? So I then went to work for a light engineering company in Southsea, a company called, I’ve forgotten what they were called, [additional words in room indecipherable] Eldon Brothers I think they’re called and they were specialists in motorcycles and they were commissioned by the Ministry of Supply to collect motorcycles, make sure they were refurbished right standard and supply them of course for dispatch riders and believe it or not, is that still running?
DK: Yes, we’re okay.
BM: Believe it or not that became a reserved occupation would you believe, for a couple of years or more, so that’s basically what I was doing. I got a bit cheesed off with that after a while. I might say while I was doing that, I was big for my age and at fifteen I was driving ambulances you know, for Portsmouth, you know, what was then because the National Health thing, there wasn’t the National Heath then, but anyway I did that for a while and then I volunteered for the RAF at seventeen and three months, that was in July 1942, but they had a scheme running, if I go too fast for that thing -
DK: No, that’s okay, don’t worry.
BM: They had a scheme running called the Preliminary Aircrew Training Course. You may have heard of it, you may not, it was quite unique. Their idea was that people like myself, whose education was interrupted, had an opportunity to go to a technical college or some advanced form of education throughout the country, prior to actually going into the RAF itself. So I went to Rotherham, I was there for about six months, then after that I joined the RAF proper on, in July 12th, a date we remember cause we got married on that date, [cough] July 12th 1943, and then went to, I think it was St Andrews first off.
DK: Just going back a bit, was there a particular reason why you chose the RAF?
BM: Yes, there was. When I was dragging people out of bomb damaged buildings it sort of came to me, how do you strike back, you know, this sort of situation? And I thought well the only force, the only one of the forces at that point that was in a position to strike back was the RAF. So I shot off, put my name down. My father, who was a staunch Army man, was horrified, because he had it all worked out I would join his old regiment, you know. But that, that didn’t come to anything.
DK: Had your father served in the First World War then?
BM: Yes, he had. In fact I was born in Germany, in Cologne. My father was part of the Army of Occupation on the Rhine. So that was near Cologne. I was there for, I’m jumping around a bit here I’m sorry, but you can analyse it, I’m sure. But I was there for the first five years, you know, living in Cologne, in fact the first language I ever spoke was German. I had a German nanny and she and I used to prattle on in German and my mother and father didn’t have a clue what we were talking about.
DK: Can you still speak German or have you?
BM: Yes, yes, up to a point. I’m not as fluent, obviously as I was. And that came, well, we’re jumping a bit. I’ll come back to that later, So I joined the RAF under the category of PNB which you know is the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, and then of course had the initial training at St Andrews, which we were talking about just now, then went from there to Bruntingthorpe for the OTU, and then from there to place called Wigsley, you’d know it, because it’s in Lincolnshire, for the Heavy Con Unit.
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was?
BM: Yes, Number 8.
DK: Number 8, and that was at Bruntingthorpe.
BM: That was at Bruntingthorpe, near Rugby.
DK: And the number of the Heavy Conversion Unit.
BM: Yes, I remember that, number 16. HCU. That was at Wigsley.
DK: Number sixteen Heavy Conversion Unit, at Wigsley.
BM: And that was Wigsley, okay.
DK: Was the OTU then your first experience of seeing aircraft close up? Had you flown before then?
BM: No, I had no experience really of flying and certainly not in military aircraft or any form of aircraft for that matter, so yes, it was my first experience. It gets very involved after this and I have to stop and think. The, after, yes, after the Heavy Con Unit, there came, as I said, I was in the category of navigator, I was trained as a navigator but along came the RAF and said you are now in to the tail end of ’43, going in to ’44, the RAF came along and said if you chaps want to be in the big show – this was the big sell, you know – you better think about remustering, because if you remuster, you know, we can get you in fairly quickly, but you have to take a different category, otherwise you’re going to Canada or South Africa, you know, for the navigational training, and it might be eighteen months and by the time you come back from that, the war will be over. That was true enough, the war would have been over. But a lot of us, myself included, in our crew, we had a flight engineer who was an ex pilot, we had a wireless operator who was, well the Aussie crew consisted of the wireless operator, the pilot and the bomb aimer. And the rest of it was made up of Brits, so we were four Brits, three Aussies.
DK: And did you first meet your crew at the OTU?
BM: Yes, that’s when they put us together.
DK: And how did that work then? How did you get your crew together?
BM: Well what happened of course, they had all these loose bods flying about, not flying about, moving about, they put them all up at this one station, and left it to them to organise themselves into crews. Didn’t, didn’t sort of delegate, you had to sort yourselves out.
DK: And do you think that worked quite well?
BM: I think in our case it worked admirably, we’re still here! [Chuckle] Yes it worked very well. The bomb aimer, chap called Doolan, you know, sought out me first, I don’t know why, I was probably the tallest in the room, sought me out first and said my skipper is an ex flying instructor, chap called Phil Gavins, great pilot.
DK: Phil Evans?
BM: No, Gavin.
[Other]: Phil Gavins.
BM: Phil Gavins. That’s my prompt over there! Phil Gavins, and what, it’s worthwhile just to spend a moment on that. He came over to the UK in the early days of the war, thinking that he was going straight into ops thinking that was his thing, but he was so good that they immediately made him an instructor, and for two years he was an instructor. At the end of those two years he said to the RAF, either you put me on ops or I’m going home!
DK: And he was Australian?
BM: He was Australian. Flight Lieutenant. Wonderful chap. Anyway, they realised he meant it, so they promptly put him on ops. He then sought out an Aussie who was a bomb aimer and said go and find us a crew. So that brings us back to where Doolan, Tim Doolan was his job was to find the crew, so he came to me first, said come and join us, I said sounds good, he took me, he introduced me to Phil Gavins, we got on like a house on fire: no problems.
DK: And had you already been trained as an air gunner at this point?
BM: Not at this point. Not at this point. This is where it gets you know, sort of, a little bit messy because once we had sorted ourselves into crews, I won’t go into how the others were selected, but once we got the crews sorted, then it became a case of categories, and the categories came into it, and it then became obvious that we had too many of the PNB characters and not enough, you might say, of air gunners, wireless ops and flight engineers. So we spent the next three months getting ourselves sorted into the right categories.
DK: Oh right. So it was sort of done rather oddly the other way round, instead of training for one of the categories and then going to the crew, you got into the crew and then trained into the categories.
BM: Crew first. That’s how it worked.
DK: I’ve never heard of that happening before.
BM: No. Well I said it was unique and it was unique. I think the influence of Phil Gavins probably played its part. He was quite a senior bloke in the RAF and he was also a buddy of Wing Commander Kingsford Smith, now Kingsford Smith was an Aussie and great reputation et cetera and those two were quite pally, because they were Aussies and came from, both, Melbourne and that’s how it happened. And I think it was a case of Phil Gavins stood back in the wings for a while, you know, I think he went to Wigsley, ahead of us, to get familiar, at that time it was Stirlings, when we went to Wigsley initially it was Stirlings.
DK: At the OTU, what type of aircraft was it?
BM: At the OTU it was Wellingtons.
DK: Wellingtons. So your first flight then was in a Wellington was it?
BM: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington then, as an aircraft?
BM: Thought it was wonderful. It was great. You could stand in the astrodome and watch the wings in that. Virtually you could.
DK: Not sure I’d want to do that!
BM: At first you’re worried about, but then you got used to the idea; it was a unique construction as well, as you know, no we liked the Wellingtons. We didn’t like the Stirlings so much because after we finished our OTU we then, we finished on Stirlings, we were given a week’s leave and when we came back - Lancasters were in their place. We didn’t know anything about it, we thought come back to the Stirlings, but no, Stirlings had gone and Lancasters were there.
DK: And did you have any flight in the Stirlings before they went?
BM: Oh yes, yes. We did, two ops, three ops I think, on Stirlings.
DK: On the Heavy Conversion Unit?
BM: That’s right. But they were practice and training flights than anything else.
DK: And where were these operations to on the Stirlings?
BM: Mostly just on the Ruhr, I think from memory Dusseldorf was one, I can’t remember the others but, they were, because they were the Stirlings you didn’t pay too much attention to them, you’re just happy to get back, you know, because the Stirling, mind you, you could get shot up remarkably well and still come back. Probably more than the Lancaster actually, but that’s by the way. When we came back, we only had three ops on the Stirlings, so when we came back we were the Lancasters.
DK: And your ops in the Stirlings you’re the rear gunner are you or the?
BM: No, mid upper.
DK: Mid upper gunner, right.
BM: In between, I skipped that of course, I went down to Stormy Down, Stormy Down the air gunner training school, and trained there as an air gunner, so I was almost [emphasis] qualified as a navigator, so I was, on our flight we had two navigators, two air gunners, two of everything it seemed. Because Phil Gavins was a great person for everyone needs to know everyone else’s job, and he insisted on that, and I had some flights, not operationally, but some flights in training where I was actually at the controls and not just me, that applied to the crew.
DK: And just going back to your air gunnery training, is it something you took to was it?
BM: Well remarkably, I mean you know, air gunners are trained with shotguns as well, you know, to get them to feature in allowing for firing in advance of the target and things like, familiarisation, that’s what it came down to. Surprisingly I came top of the class, you know, because my, out of I think, thirty six points that you could get, I got thirty five. So I was pretty good with a shotgun.
DK: Wow! Crack shot.
[Other]: Still are, he still can!
BM: Then we got down to the real business where we came from Heavy Con Unit, we did lots of training flights on Heavy Con Unit, I think we were there in total about six weeks.
DK: And these were sort of cross country?
BM: Yeah. Mostly. And I was appalled at the number of aircraft we lost on cross country training too, fog and everything else, it had the knack of sending out in weather which I don’t think you would ever be sent out on the squadron. We lost too many aircraft in training, in my view, that’s me there. Then off to Wratting Common. Do you know the name?
DK: I know the name, yes.
BM: You’re one of the few people who do!
DK: Is it Cambridgeshire?
BM: Yes. It’s on the border of Cambridgeshire and Suffolk isn’t it.
DK: [Indecipherable]
BM: I was 195 Squadron. You’ve got a note of that haven’t you.
DK: Yes.
BM: 195 Squadron, 3 Group of course. Then we got into operations proper.
DK: And what did you think when you arrived on your operational squadron, at the base itself. What did you see when you turned up there?
BM: Well it was all exciting, I was what, then eighteen I think, yes, just, so for us it was a case of: we were in the big show, you know, let’s get up type of thing. And of course we did. So it was very exciting indeed. But what we learned from it very quickly, we were in a nissen hut, and three crews in a nissen hut and of course during the course of the time we were there, there were seven changes, in other words we lost seven crews from, we were the only one, the original crew, that still remained in that nissen hut. And we lost South Africans, Rhodesians, Canadian and of course Brits, naturally, and that was it really. So what we learned, a point to make here, what we learned is don’t get involved because you just couldn’t get too involved with people because if you did, you never knew if they’d be there when you got back. A typical thing would be go on a raid and when you got back, you’d go to bed and somewhere during the night, about three o’clock in the morning or even later, the SPs would come and in start picking up peoples’ kits from around you and taking the kits in to, you know, personal control, personal kit, and they were the people who weren’t coming back. And that, initially that got to you, as you can imagine, but after a while, you became, funnily enough, you became immune to it.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember your first actual operation on the squadron?
BM: Yes, I can cause I can always remember the Intelligence Officer, you know, making a funny, that he thought was a funny. It was a marshalling yard, and it was called Bad Oldesfloe, I’ll say it slowly: Bad Oldesfloe. So when he got up there and having given us all the spiel about targets, weather and everything else involved, he said right chaps, I want you to come back and tell me it’s now Bad old and very slow! That was his joke, but I always remember it because it was so corny. [Chuckles]
DK: Didn’t go down well then.
BM: No, it got a titter, but it didn’t get anything beyond that.
DK: So, on your operations then you were the mid upper gunner again were you?
BM: Yes.
DK: So can you just talk a little bit about how an operation would work? What you did when you got up in the morning sort of thing.
BM: Yeah, well obviously the ops, the briefings were different, you know the air gunners and flight engineers sometimes, [indecipherable], but the air gunners and wireless ops were briefed separately. And so you got up in the morning and you’d really no great demands on you, except to make sure that your guns were working et cetera and everything was okay in that respect. Then more or less you’re at a loose end, if you’re lucky you could get two or three hours of shuteye, but the navigators and the rest of the crew would go to the separate briefing where they would be briefed on waypoints and things of this nature, [indecipherable] at the target, what to look out for in terms of opposition, where to expect flak, where to expect searchlights and things like this. So our day, compared with their day, was relatively slack, But because you’re all keyed up anyway, excited, we used to go and perhaps kick a football about, you know, or play squash – in my case I played squash - and basically that was about the strength of it. But all the excitement was there, until of course it came time for you all to go for the final briefing where you were all briefed together and that usually, would be about, depends where you’re going, usually that would be about six or seven o’clock. So you all get briefed together, then go back and get kitted out, pick up parachutes and everything else involved and then you went to the aircraft, sometimes you sat in the aircraft for a couple of hours and that was a very harrowing time. Because you’re virtually biting your nails you know, because nothing much was happening. Because often, according to weather the actual op would be cancelled and that was bad too, because having got all keyed up for it, then you’d go back, relieved in one sense but at the same time, you know, sort of thinking oh, what was that all about.
DK: And are you sat in your gun turret at take off?
BM: Yes.
DK: And you’d remain there for the whole operation probably?
BM: Yes. Yes.
DK: This might sound like an obvious question but what was your role as an air gunner?
BM: Well if you’re the mid upper gunner, you had the role of, if you like, weapons controller because you can see, from the mid upper turret, you can see virtually three hundred and sixty degrees; tail gunner can’t. He can only see about a hundred and eighty degrees. So if you’re over a target or reaching a target your job naturally is to look out for enemy fighters and if you saw enemy fighters you would control the flight as it started. So a typical – funny how you remember these things – the typical thing might be, if you spotted a fighter, you know, you’d go through to the skipper straight away. [Operational voice] “Skipper, fighter fighter, port quarter up, or down, whichever, usually up, port quarter up, range six hundred”. You’d wait a little, “attack commencing, corkscrew port – go!” So you control the corkscrew. That was your job. The tail gunner didn’t because he couldn’t see enough, and you were the person one who could, so you used to control the corkscrew. But once the corkscrew started then the pilot took over.
DK: Did you practice this procedure of corkscrew?
BM: Yes.
DK Did you ever have to use it while in an attack?
BM: We used it over Kiel with good effect, we used it over Berlin with good effect, and we used it over, I was going to say Peenemunde, but we didn’t do that, there was a third occasion we used it. We didn’t do Dresden, we didn’t do Hamburg, I’m pleased to say, and we didn’t do Cologne. Funnily enough I was pleased about that cause I was born there and I didn’t want to be bombing where I was born. I’m trying to think the third place we used it; doesn’t matter.
DK: And can you remember actually seeing these German aircraft attacking you then?
BM: Yes, you can.
DK: And do you know what they were?
BM: We were credited with a kill over Kiel. Because, well the rear gunner and myself happened to psyche in on, well I think it was a raw [emphasis] German pilot, because the pilots, the idea of the corkscrew do you? You do. Well the idea of the corkscrew course is that you turn in to the attack and then you turn and go down again the opposite direction and then you start to come up. Now if the German behind you comes in he’ll follow you, theory wise, he’ll follow you in to the first turn and then he’ll pull up as you’re going into the second turn because he’d overshoot you. And this particular pilot pulled up too soon and he exposed himself to the rear gunner and myself and all we saw was lots of flame, lots of smoke and spiralling, so presumably it was a kill.
DK: And can you remember what type of German aircraft it was?
BM: Fokker 190. Yeah. They were pretty deadly, you know.
D: And you think it was, a lot of it was down to the inexperience of the German pilot?
BM: I think it was because by this time, don’t forget we were into ’44 now and because by this time they were running out of experienced pilots. So, I think it was a trainee pilot who just didn’t realise that was the wrong thing to do. And whether it cost him his life or not I can’t be sure.
DK: And so how many operations did you actually fly all together then?
BM: With Stirlings? Did you say three?
[Other]: All together.
DK: All together.
BM: All together.
[Other]: Twenty nine.
BM: Twenty nine.
DK: Twenty nine. So that was twenty six.
BM: Plus three.
DK: With 195 Squadron and three with the Stirlings.
BM: That’s right, yes. Yeah.
DK: And what was it like then, coming back, no, no, I’ll just go back a bit there.
BM: Certainly David.
DK: What was it like first of all being over the targets? You’ve reached the target, you’ve been attacked by a night fighter, what was it like, did you see over the targets themselves.
BM: Well, over the target you had so much flak, that you actually didn’t have fighter attacks over the Target. Why? Because they were scared of being shot down by their own ack-ack, as you can imagine, but over the target the flak was, you know, was horrendous, you had these crunches of shells bursting right and left of you and on you; that was you know, pretty terrible, I must say. And you can smell, you know, the cordite, it, and, not could you smell it then, when you got back into your base it was still in your coats, the smell of the cordite. But the flak was intense and that was as deadly as the night fighters frankly in my view.
DK: And could you remember the searchlights?
BM: Yes, we were one, two, three, four times we were coned. Berlin twice, murderous over Berlin, but four times we were coned, and again the experience of our pilot, if it hadn’t been for Phil Gavins I don’t think we’d be having this conversation quite frankly. You know, he managed to, he kept going straight at the deck and we thought god the wings are going to come off and all credit to the Lancaster, it’s amazing the punishment they could take in evasive actions like that, and he’d be zig-zagging as well at the same time. Once you got coned, you were lucky if you got out of it. He developed a technique for searchlights: he’d dive for so long, bank first quite sharply to starboard and then dive again, and bank quite sharply, port, about this time the searchlights were weaving about trying to pick him up again and he found, and he only did it by experience, he found that that was the most, the safest way of being able to get out of it. And we did obviously. We’re here.
DK: Could you, during your operations, see other aircraft or were you very much alone?
BM: Oh yes. Oh very much so. One of the biggest fears was being, having bombs being dropped on you. We were lucky, we had a new Lancaster which was capable of getting up to about twenty four thousand feet. I say capable, that’s with a full bomb load. Because if you’re at twenty four thousand feet you’re reasonably secure, that people weren’t going to drop their bombs on you. But I shudder to think how many people were lost, you know, because of being, friendly fire we call it these days.
DK: Can you remember how many times you actually went to Berlin then?
BM: Three times.
DK: Three times. And what was the feeling then as, pull the curtain across and you see how far east you’re going?
BM: Well, the weather of course has a lot to do with it as you can imagine and the number of times that we went and it was bright moonlight, and why they sent us out in bright moonlight. I wasn’t on this trip, but a good example is Nuremberg, you know the story of Nuremburg, bright moonlight.
DK: I’ve spoken to a couple of aircrew flying that.
BM: We were lucky, one of our crew had appendicitis and we couldn’t go or something. Otherwise we would have gone to Nuremburg. But it was fatal, it was [emphasis] fatal to go out in bright moonlight; they called it a Fighter’s Moon.
DK: So, you want weather, you don’t want the weather too bad, but you don’t want the weather too good either, do you.
BM: If you’ve got thick cloud there’s always a danger that you’re going to have a collision, you know because by this time you start out stragglers and all close up at the target, and as they all close up of course airspace becomes a bit congested and the number of times that I’ve looked out and found a Lancaster doing this within, you know, sort of within feet of you, type thing. Halifax as well.
DK: Bit scary then was it, somebody looking.
BM: You needed your wits about you the whole time.
DK: So was your aircraft ever damaged at all?
BM: Yes, shot up quite a bit, but because like all Lancs, they got patched up very quickly.
DK: Was the damage serious on any occasion?
BM: Yeah, Kiel, in Kiel we were shot up and when we got back and walked round the aircraft and had a look we couldn’t believe it. You know, bits were missing, big chunks were missing and you thought how on earth did it keep flying?
DK: I was going to say that, coming back to your operation’s finished and you’re flying back. How did that feel as you left the target and on the way home?
BM: Well at one time you’d think that’s it chaps, it’s all over, we’re home, safe and sound and the Luftwaffe got this trick of waiting at your base for you, you know. In fact, our daughter lives in Silverstone, and she lives there because she’s a motor fanatic. Formula One fanatic et cetera. But I had to tell her once, she kept on about Silverstone, and I said look, you don’t realise, I found Silverstone long before you did because I was diverted to it in 1944, early on, and the reason is, coming back to what I was saying, there was a gaggle of night fighters at our base and we’d already had three Lancs who thought they were safe that had been shot down and we were diverted to Silverstone. So we stayed Silverstone overnight and I had to tell her you aren’t the first person at Silverstone!
DK: And what would happen then, at the end of an operation as you get out the aircraft?
BM: Yes, well of course your legs are shaky, stiff as hell, you badly needed a pee, as you can imagine, that was important, sometimes it was just under the aircraft, sometimes you could wait till you got back to the Mess.
DK: You never used the chemical toilet on the aircraft then?
BM: Well moving around a Lancaster is very restricted space, and moving around on any aircraft but on the Lancaster in particular and you’ve got the big bulwark in the super-frame that you’d have to clamber, mid upper gunner’s up there and if you had to get to an elsan you had to go right back, you know. No, it’s better if you can hang on to it, and we did.
DK: So you got back, what happens then?
BM: Right, then you go for debriefing; that’s a very important part. As you got to the mess, firstly you had your operational breakfast. Because they didn’t debrief you until you’d had something to eat. So you had your eggs, you’re privileged to have your eggs and bacon as an operational crew.
DK That was a bit of a privilege then was it, your egg and bacon?
BM: Yes, yes, so we had our eggs and bacon, then you sat down with the intelligence officers, there’s usually more than one, usually two, sometimes three, and depending on where you went and the value of the target. Some targets they knew very little about and they wanted to learn about so they’d keep you there for ever, questions about what was the ack-ack like, what about night fighters, searchlights, everything else. All the questions kept coming and by this time you’re dead tired and all you want to do was get back and get your head down. But that was a very necessary part of it. Took about an hour and a half.
DK: So that’s an operation then. What did you and your crew do when you weren’t operating? Did you socialise?
BM: Keep fit.
DK: Ah. Right, okay.
BM: Keep fit. My skipper, Phil Gavins, was a fitness freak and he, [pause] not basketball, can’t call it basketball, what’s the, the male version of basketball?
DK: That is basketball, isn’t it, netball is the -
[Other]: Netball is the ladies.
DK: Basketball, yeah.
BM: It’s not netball. Oh dear. They have tournaments all the time now. Anyway, when we weren’t flying he’d have us doing something to keep fit. A lot of it of course was. Come on Prue, you’re supposed to prompt me. It’s not basketball.
[Other]: Sorry. Just trying to think myself.
DK: I think it is basketball. Cause netball is –
[Other]: Netball’s the ladies. That’s the only one I know!
DK: It must be basketball.
BM: Anyway, we got good at that, the squadron champions, played very well indeed. So that’s what he had us doing, why, and I was playing squash, and the two things, that and squash together kept you very fit and I think we were probably the fittest crew at the base. I’m quite sure of that.
DK: Really, so you didn’t go off base and socialise out, off the base at all?
BM: Well, towards the end of the war, you never knew when they’d suddenly declare an op, so they tended to keep you on base, you know, have you handy as much as anything else. There was a time early in the war once every two weeks but these were two nights, three nights on the trot, you know, so it was a case of Bomber Harris was determined to keep up maximum effort. And to do that you had to have the crews available.
DK: And as the war’s coming to an end then, how did you feel about that, the war’s end?
BM: Well we didn’t know it was coming to an end, obviously! As far as we’re concerned we were doing a daily job and sort of lucky in my case, came back, they weren’t so lucky so you didn’t count your chickens as it were, you were just very grateful you come back, and you became in the end almost believing that you were invincible. I know it sounds silly, but you thought to yourself crikey, I’ve done this, I’ve done that. You ticked off all the places you’d been to.
[Other]: Indestructible you mean.
BM: Sorry?
[Other]: Indestructible.
DK: Indestructible.
BM: Indestructible or invincible we thought, but indestructible will do. She’s allowed to prompt me! [Laugh] Yes, so towards the end we had our squadron commander, you know, had us build, would you believe, a swimming pool. So we created at Wratting Common a swimming pool which was about forty two feet by about thirty two feet so it was quite massive. Then we ran out of water! [Laugh] He didn’t stop to think. I’ll get them to build a pool, and we all did this, Phil Gavins incidentally was a builder, so he was more or less in charge, supervising any construction, at this stage was just the point. So that occupied him, and because it occupied him, it occupied us, you know, we were, it was immediately compulsory in that effect.
DK: So the make up of your crew then was the pilot was Australian?
BM: Yes.
DK: And the bomb aimer who was Australian.
BM: Yes. Wireless op was Australian.
DK: And can you remember his name?
BM: Phil Holden.
DK: Right. And the Flight engineer?
BM: Ah, flight engineer, Phil Richardson he was a pilot, Brit.
DK: And the wireless operator?
BM: He was an Aussie.
BM: And do you remember his name?
BM: Holden.
DK: Holden. And the rear gunner then.
BM: Jack Earnshaw, he was a Brit.
DK: He was a Brit. So that’s three British, four Australian.
BM: Yes. Then there was Shorty Brown, who took over as navigator.
DK: Right. And he was British as well then.
BM: He was British.
DK: And how did you get on then, how did you work together, was it?
BM: Well that was one of the, if you like, one of the highlights of the crew, we were just like a family, you could have said we were related almost, you know, because just talk about brotherly love, it existed in a high degree in all of us, you know, we played together, we worked together, we drank together as you can imagine and whatever we did, we did together. And it became, talk about bonding, you know, when I, we look back on it even now, I think to myself, how could seven people who’d never known each other develop such a close relationship. And they did.
DK: And presumably as the war’s ended you just got posted away.
BM: Well, the Aussies went home, you can imagine, and the rest of us went about various jobs after the war proper. Now, in my case, I, I don’t know how it happened but I got my name down for Tiger Force. Where in fact we thought that we’d done our share in Europe and that was it and we’d be demobbed and that was the end of it. Not a bit of it. No, no, I was still very young and so still had years on my side as it were, so they said oh no we’re going to put you down for Tiger Force.
DK: Did that come as a bit of a shock then at the time?
BM: It did! Cause we didn’t, they were going to give us Lincolns, I say going to because it didn’t happen, going to give us Lincolns, and what they did for us is to fly us out to Mauripur in India, which is Karachi, fly us out to Mauripur, wait there for the Lincolns to arrive, and then we, as experienced crews, and they only took experienced crews [indecipherable] they didn’t take any new entrants at all. Why? Because we were gonna have to fly alongside the Americans based on Okinawa, to bomb Japan, and what they didn’t want was raw recruits, you know, showing up the RAF if you like, against experienced Americans. So that was the idea. Anyway, the Lincolns, some of them came out, not many, others didn’t.
DK: So you almost got to the Far East then.
BM: Yes.
DK: You got as far as…
BM: Do you want me to carry on? That gets interesting after that. So. Yes. Well, anyway. So we to Mauripur to wait for the Lincolns to arrive, and in the meantime, the American dropped the atom bomb. Now I think then, stupidly, okay pack up your bags and home. Not a bit of it! They said your demob number is down here, and we’ve got people who’ve been in Burma and India and else involved who’s demob number’s up here so they’re going home first and you’re going to stay out here until your demob number comes up. The only thing is they don’t know what to do with us, as you can imagine. You’re not bombing anyone, you’re not killing anyone: so they didn’t know what to do with us, so I won’t, I’ll spare you the in between bits, I spent three months in Mauripur, three months mark you, playing bridge. And I’ve never played bridge since: and I never will!
DK: Did you?
BM: Morning, breakfast: bridge. Tiffin, bridge, afternoon, dinner, bridge, evening, bridge back to eleven o’clock, eight thirty in the morning, bridge! And it went on like that for three months.
DK: Did you get quite good at it?
BM: Well I was, in fact I could probably have played for the country by the time I got back. However, I went down to Ceylon, I was posted to Columbo, to Number 4 Base Postal Unit, let it register with you, Base Postal Unit, in Columbo. Why was that? Because by this time I couldn’t stay as aircrew, so by this time I was remustered as clerk, general duties; and I was a postal clerk. This is funny now, because more interesting later. So I had, what did I have? I had civil training, you know, as a postal clerk, just three weeks, just to make sure that I knew what a postal clerk did I think, as much as anything. So while I was at Columbo, I was only at Columbo for four or five months, probably, about that. By that time the demob numbers got lower and lower and they said right anyone with a certain number is going up to, had been posted to India. And I was posted to Air Headquarters, Delhi, India. This is where it gets interesting. I was there for about two days and I had a message: Mountbatten wants to see you. I thought they’re having me on, you know, [chuckle] why would Mountbatten want to see me? Right, Mountbatten wanted to see me, I was ushered into the great presence, and there was Lord Louis, he said: “hello, I hear you got postal training.” I said, “well y-y-yes I have.” “Good, so you know all about this distribution of mail business.” I said, “well I know what should happen,” he said, “good, because it’s all a bloody mess out here,” he said, “we’ve got people at SEAC, South East Asia Command, who haven’t seen mail for about three months,” he said. “We need someone to take it over: you’re in charge.” Just like that.
DK: For the whole of South East Asia.
BM: For the whole of South East Asia Command. I had my own private Dakota, my own crew, and I could fly to all the outposts, you know, and check out their postal arrangements, and I was to do it on a non-stop basis, just to make sure that this was actually happening and I was attached to Mountbatten’s staff for the best part of fourteen months, doing this.
DK: Did you get a promotion out of it?
BM: I was acting Squadron Leader because I had people I was giving orders to: Flying Officers, Flight Lieutenants et cetera and so on, and I was going to an air base and saying to them, you’ve got to do this, that and the other and they would say who are you? I was Flight Sergeant, who are you, you know, to give us instructions? So I went back to Lord Louis. It’s not going to work. Why isn’t it going to work? Cause nothing as far as he’s concerned couldn’t work, you know, why isn’t it gonna work? I said well, I said if you, would you take orders from a Flight Sergeant? “Oh,” he said, “we’ll soon sort that out!” Press a bell, in came his, what do they call it? Well anyway.
DK: Aide
BM: Aid de Camp came in and he said Acting Squadron Leader. [Chuckles]
DK: There and then!
BM: Acting Squadron Leader posted to you know, South East Command, all these piss parting as he called it, all these piss parting post officers make sure they know that they’ve got an Acting Squadron Leader coming to see them, but I never was a squadron leader, after the war I thought it might stick, but it didn’t.
DK: So were you quite impressed by Mountbatten then?
BM: Yes. If you wanted someone to talk at length about Mountbatten, I could because he was an absolutely wonderful character.
DK: So do you, once you got this posting did you see a lot of him?
BM: Yes, daily basis. I tell you why – perhaps I shouldn’t talk like this about Mountbatten – but he was a rug collector, rug collector, you know. Course he had a private home, as we know, in Romsey, which he wanted to furnish, and he loved the Indian most miserable rugs - I became an expert in rugs - rugs which were twelve foot by eight in the old money, twelve foot by eight and he loved those, and I used to go round picking them up for him with transport of course, bring them back and then send them back to the UK in diplomatic mail. [Laughter] Great big packages, rolled up of course, as much as they could, and then sent back to the UK, diplomatic mail, Lord, Earl Mountbatten.
DK: So these, you were flying these back then were you?
BM: Of course! He had his own private aircraft, as you can imagine, transport.
DK: Did you ever fly with him at all anywhere?
BM: Never did. No, never did. No, I met him at airports and briefed him on things I was I was doing, and he actually briefed me on what he was doing as well: can’t stop, I’ve got to see these so and so’s, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I found him a great character, I enjoyed my time with Mountbatten.
DK: It must have been a shock then, when he was murdered.
BM: Oh, I think I felt it as much as anyone did. Tragic that was.
DK: So how long were you on his staff for?
BM: Fourteen months.
DK: And at that point did you come back to the UK?
BM: I came back to the UK just as the India, the parting of the ways you might say. Pakistan and India was being, you know.
DK: Partitioned.
BM: The things that I saw, I can tell you that I’ve been down to Delhi Station and I watched trains come in with four thousand mutilated bodies on board, when they’d been intercepted on the way from Pakistan to Delhi, and it was tit for tat. It worked the other way as well, you know. But the amount of massacres that there were, you know. Initially it was bandits robbing the trains, but then after that it became more partisan.
DK: Sectarian violence.
DM: Yes. Well, is that holding up?
DK: Yep, no, we’re okay.
BM: There was one occasion where I had to go to, down to Delhi station, rail station and, oh I know what it was, one of our drivers, RAF driver, one of - Garry’s as they were called - one of the drivers had run over what we called the mefloquine boys and these were the chaps who, skin went yellow because of constantly taking you know, tablets that turned them yellow, but they were Buddhist priests, that’s what we were thinking of, memory fails you at times, Buddhist priests, and he ran him over and killed him. And this driver was trapped, and trapped is the right word, in the station master’s office and the stationmaster phoned Air Headquarters and said I don’t know what to do, there’s a mob gathering outside and if I try to get him out, you know, we’re going to have, I’m sure, a killing on our hands. And it could get very ugly can you do something about it? Now we had on our station about thirty Gurkhas, you know. And of course we had great respect for Gurkhas, and my CO there, what was the Air Headquarters Postal Unit, said, chap called Flight Lieutenant Wesley, and Paul Wesley said take a half a dozen Gurkhas in a Garry, go to the station and this is what you do, and I’m grateful to him, he said you’ll go in and get the driver and as you come out, get the Gurkhas to beat him up, you know. So I said beat him up? One of our own blokes? And Paul said it might save his life, because if the mob see him being physically beaten, of course the Gurkhas had what they called lethis l e t h i they were sticks which were copper bound, like a quarterstaff but much shorter and they had these sticks which they all carried and if they didn’t draw their knives, you know, then they used to use these sticks and they could do a lot of damage with. So we got this chap, and I said to him bite a stiff upper lip cause you’re going to take some punishment, he said I don’t mind, I don’t mind if it’s going to save my life.
DK: He understood why as well then.
BM: So we marched him out and he made a big show of shouting and yelling and screaming as it were, you know, marched him out, and he got unceremoniously pushed in the back of the truck and the Gurkhas got in, theoretically still hitting him, but they weren’t, stopping short of actually making contact where they could and so the mob cleared, you know, and we drove through the mob. It cleared reluctantly I might say, but they accepted what they were seeing as punishment, you know, so we managed to get him, he was on the next flight back to the UK. So there was no question of tales getting back, you know, to, as to what happened. So that was that.
DK: What did you think of India at that time then? It must have been quite an amazing place in some ways.
BM: Well it was a hotbed of violence, there was absolutely no doubt about that, and I must say, that there were a lot of immature British Army officers who were giving the wrong instructions and as a result a number of people, a number of Army units fired on Indians that they shouldn’t have done, or needn’t have done, let’s put it that way and all that did of course was add to the feeling.
DK: Provoked the situation.
BM: It did, and it became very ugly. And I recall, when we, I came back from Bombay, and they had a big march of the, and it was purposely chosen that the march of all the Brits who, left in India, there weren’t many of us, about four hundred of us by this time, left, the services this is, civil service as well. We all marched to the docks with the SS Mooltan, always remember the ship, the SS Mooltan was waiting for us, but lining the whole route: Gurkhas. All the way along, about every eight feet or so, there was a Gurkha, and they must have rounded up all the Gurkhas they had, you know, left in that particular territory and they lined the route, and got us safely to, you were asking about the tension like, got us safely, you were asking about what the tension was like, got us all safely to the dockside and we got on board and came home. But we could hear the crowd al swelling and Jahin, Jahin, Jahin. “India for the Indians,” you know, that type of thing.
DK: So you were one of the last to actually leave then.
BM: We were the last.
DK: The actual last.
BM: We were the last, yes. Cause the civil servants were flown out from the airports, you know. Mountbatten of course was immune. He was giving them their country so he was okay.
DK: And is that something you look back on, in India, as, with pride, or bit of a messy period?
BM: I think it was inevitable that it happened, I think it happened too soon, my own private view and after all, after the amount of time I spent there and in the situations that I spent there, I suppose my opinion was a good as anyone’s you think about it. Cause you could analyse what was happening and take stock of the situation probably more than the average person. Yes, it happened too soon, it could have waited because the carving up of the territory, in my view, was a bit messy.
DK: And that’s what led to the massacres you [indecipherable]
BM: Because it wasn’t done properly. I don’t blame Mountbatten, because he started out with a set plan, but then the government, Labour Government in this case, drafted in some civil servants to, if you like, put the civil service stamp on it and the people they drafted in had no experience of India. But the civil servants who were there had been in India for twenty years or more. Why on earth didn’t they leave it to them. You, know. To get it right. No, they brought them home and replaced them.
DK: Those already out there would have had all the local knowledge, wouldn’t they.
BM: They were, they were. But they felt, the thinking was, that they were there, and had been there during the time of the occupation, that they would have been tarred with that brush, you know, they’d have been part of the old regime. So they thought by bringing them back and replacing them with fresh people, you know, that that wouldn’t be the case, but the fresh people just didn’t understand it.
DK: No. So you’ve come back from India then, is that when you were demobbed? Finally.
BM: Yes, I was demobbed in March I think it was, 1947. Yes.
DK: And what did you do after you left the RAF?
BM: Well, I became, initially, I became a motor mechanic because I’d had some years in light engineering motorcycles and things like this and became a motor mechanic for a very short period. Then I became a salesman with automotive parts and things like this, very much uppermost and then I went on from that to engineering, I worked for a while GKN, you know, names that you’d be familiar with, people like Firth Cleveland, GKN, Boscombe Engineering and so on. A number of light engineering to heavy engineering companies, and then I went into exports, where my German came in. And so I had some twenty nine years, I’m ninety three, so I had twenty nine years in exports.
DK: I was surprised that while you were in the RAF your knowledge of German wasn’t used a bit better. Did they know you spoke German?
BM: Oh yes, it was used, for instance when the wireless op was getting messages in German, he’d switch them through to me and say Bert, what’s this bugger talking about. [Laugh] And so I’d listen to it for a while, cause it’s easy to switch it through when you’re flying, I would listen to it for a while, I said he’s giving our position to an absolute n-th degree, you know, because he’s picking it up from that radar. We had an advanced for, at this time which was great, the GH it’s called, ground honing, you’ll know about it of course. GH had one great flaw, it also reversed the track so what happened was that you’d be picking up your position on the ground and the ground was relaying your position to the air, so you put night fighter, fighter squadrons were able to hone in on you because of your honing. So we stopped using that after a while.
DK: And did you remain in touch with your crew after the war?
BM: Yes, in fact we had a couple of reunions at our home, [number of comments in background] not here, but bigger house we had, they came.
[Other]: Was it Kent they came?
BM: Glenpronus Avenue
[Other]: Oh yes, they came there, yes.
BM: And we kept, of course, Christmas cards and bits of news and so on.
DK: You never got out to Australia to see them?
BM: Yes, we did, yes we did, but that’s when I was working for GKN. I was sent out there to sort out some things.
[Other]: We, they met us, didn’t they, at the airport.
BM: Yes. Gave us a conducted tour and when you’ve been flying for eighteen hours the last thing you want is a conducted tour of Sydney!
[Other]: We were dead tired, but we had to go!
DK: There’s no other members of your crew still alive then?
BM: No, I believe [emphasis] I’m still the only member alive.
DK: And all these years later, how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command? All the history and everything that’s gone on since.
BM: Well I think mixed feelings, you know, because obviously when you look back and you thought about what you did, and what it was all about, I think the mixed feelings are that war is useless, as far as I’m concerned war serves no purpose at all, all it does is set one person against the other and when you think of the carnage and everything else you only have to look around you now and see what’s happening in places like Yemen and so on, to realise: total destruction. But when you think about why we did it, we did it because there was a definite purpose: Hitler had to be stopped. And the RAF at that time, in my view, they took pride in what the RAF did. I was appalled, I didn’t know at the time, but I was appalled at the extent of our losses. I mean fifty six thousand, you know, just incredible. And the thing I think now, thinking back on it, they never told us the extent of our losses, had they have done so, I wonder if we’d have gone on as we did. I just wonder.
[Other]: We’ve got very good, two very good friends haven’t we, Germans. Two males.
BM: Yes. We’ve got some good friends, German friends.
DK: So your Germans friends then were alive during the war then?
[Other]: Was Siegfried alive then?
BM: No Siegfried’s younger than us. And Kurt was younger than us. Kurt was -
[Other]: An Austrian.
BM: He was an Austrian but he was part of Hitler Youth!
[Other]:Oh yes.
BM: He was fifteen and part of Hitler Youth.
[Other]: And he’s such a lovely fellow. We’ve got him. And then there’s’ Uta. My friend, and her father. Bert was bombing Germany, and he was bombing us. Isn’t it stupid.
BM: Yes, Coventry. We used to fly in opposite directions, you know. He was a navigator with Dornier 217s I think.
DK: And is he still alive?
[Other]: No, he isn’t. No.
BM: No, he’s dead.
DK: So you visited Germany quite a lot then did you?
BM: We have done. Well, I told you I did twenty nine years in exports and when you’re working for someone like GKN and Firth Cleveland you’re making frequent trips. I used to spend six months of the year, for one period particularly, six months of the year out of the country.
DK: When you were in Germany did the war ever get mentioned at all? Something spoken about?
BM: [Laughter] Occasionally. Yes. We had, it’s a funny and it’s not part of what you want, but we took a holiday in, where was that place in Itia?
[Other]: In where?
BM: Italy, that we use to go to?
[Other]: Sirmione.
DK: Lake Garda.
BM: Lake Garda, Sirmione, we took a holiday I Sirmione and in the same hotel was a German couple and they got to hear us talking and decided they’d like to make friends with the Brits. So it all started out we had dinner with them a couple of times, he then hired a boat and said I’m going to take a trip round the lake, do you want to join us and I said yes, certainly, that’s kind of you so we joined them. And off we went and beers on board and, you know, all sorts of refreshments et cetera, schnapps and what have you, and after a while what did you do in the war. So I said I flew in the RAF. Terror fliege! Terror fliege! That’s what they said. Terror fliege! I said no, not terror fliege, I did a job he was with ack ack as it turned out, so before long it was the ack-ack being revived against, you know, the terror flieges and that was a very short boat trip, all I can say! [Laugh]
[Other]: We never got on with them at all.
BM: No, we came back very quickly. They didn’t talk to us after that and we didn’t talk to them.
[Other]: But we’ve stayed friends with the others.
BM: But I’ve met up with engineers from places like Siemens and AEG and people like this and we’ve had these sorts of discussions, but generally speaking people said it’s history.
[Other]: Well we had to do it, didn’t we. I mean what else?
BM: I mean Siegfried’s a good example, we met him in Makrat, in Spain on holiday and we’ve known them ever since, in 1962 so we’ve kept that relationship going the whole time.
[Other]: And she saved me, Bert was putting, I was very badly burnt, we didn’t know what we were doing, and I was badly burnt on my back and Bert was putting oil on top and she came over, that’s how we met, she came over and knocked the bottle of the, bottle out of his hand and practically knocked you over!
BM: Put you under a cold shower.
[Other]: Picked me up and put me under a cold shower.
BM: She’s a big girl! [Laughter]
[Other]: So that was, you know, just to show that it’s.
DK: Okay that’s great, I think we’ll stop there.
BM: Have I talked too much?
DK:, No, that’s been absolutely marvellous,
BM: Are you sure?
DK: No, great. Thanks for that.
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Interview with Bert Mason
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-10-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMasonAE181023, PMasonAE1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:09:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bert Mason was born in Germany and worked in light engineering and driving ambulances before joining the RAF in 1942. He started training as a navigator before joining a crew and became an air gunner on 195 Squadron at Wratting Common. He tells of operations: preparing, flying, escaping searchlights and fighters and then debriefing. At the end of the war he went to India and Ceylon, working for Lord Mountbatten. After the war Bert went back to engineering, travelling all over the world.
Temporal Coverage
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1942-07
1943
1944
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Northamptonshire
Germany--Bad Oldesloe
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
195 Squadron
3 Group
air gunner
aircrew
Fw 190
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Silverstone
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wratting Common
searchlight
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/995/10626/PMossH1801.2.jpg
8fef87e0bf60954cc3caced45b9ca9a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/995/10626/AMossH181114.1.mp3
010bf15446d62b4b91fa96ccbdb97bc0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Moss, Henry
H Moss
Harry Moss
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty items. Collection concerns Henry Moss (1925 - 2020, 3041799, Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunner with 138 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham. Collection consists of an oral history interview, his flying logbook, documents and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Henry Moss and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Moss, H
Requires
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Henry Moss, Flight Sergeant, served in the RAF between 22 October 1943 to 10 April 1946. He trained as an Air Gunner and was involved in bombing Kiel, Potsdam, Heligoland, and Bremen before taking part in Operations Exodus, Manna and Revue with 138 Squadron. Henry was demobilised in 1946.
Henry left school in Bradford aged 17½ just before the outbreak of war with no qualifications . He worked in a variety of jobs including a garment fitter where he made waterproof clothing for dispatch riders. Henry passed his National Service medical board and joined the Air Transport Corps which led him to choose to join the Royal Air Force.
Henry was ordered to go to Viceroy House in London to be fitted with his unforms and receive his inoculations before moving on with his next stage of his training. He was then posted to RAF Usworth in February 1944 for his primary training. This was made up of marching and learning to salute, and basic tests on arithmetic and writing to place recruits on their trade path. There were people from many different places around the globe. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/28928
Henry learned how to strip down and re-assemble a Browning gun blindfolded but found this a pointless exercise as at altitude, it impossible to manipulate the small parts of the weapon with gloves on.
After RAF Usworth, he was posted to RAF Pembrey to the Introductory Gunnery Course at 1 Air Gunnery School flying Ansons. He did not experience air sickness and enjoyed flying. While here Henry learned about ‘offsetting’ the release of the bombs and how to aim accurately. He was surprised to learn that from his own records that he had scored 98.5% in the exam. Over his time at RAF Pembrey, he fired a total of 300 rounds. Henry was finally selected as an air gunner/wireless operator.
Henry’s next posting was to (26 OTU) RAF Wing on the Vickers Wellington, where he crewed up. His first pilot made a mistake during a landing and while the landing was safe, the pilot was sent home. His second pilot was Sergeant Crawford who he felt safe with for the rest of the war. From here Henry went to the 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit RAF Langer on Lancasters, and 138 Squadron RAF Tempsford. Henry flew to Kiel twice; both flights were at night and while he was involved in the sinking of the German ship Admiral Sheer, he did not see anything. Henry flew operations to Potsdam and a daytime operation to the Naval base on the island of Heligoland. He can remember being able to see the other aircraft and watching the torpedo boats below; he thought the operation was a bit of a ‘dead duck’. Henry’s final operation was to Bremen when they were hit by flak but ‘nothing vital was hit’. Henry referred to Operation Manna as ‘Spam Runs’
After the war ended Henry was involved, as a camera operator, in Operation Revue which was the creation of a digital map on mainland Britain as an aid to town and country. Henry was demobilised from Personnel Dispersal Centre 100 having achieved the rank of Flight Sergeant. In total he completed 436 hours 20 minutes flying. He went straight back to his previous job as a garment cutter in Bradford, but he did not stay in contact with any of ‘his’ crew.
Claire Campbell
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is, I’ll just introduce myself. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Henry Moss at his home on, what’s the date? Right. The 14th of November 2018. I’ll just put that there.
HM: Yeah.
DK: If you just speak normally. Yeah. That’s looks ok. So, if I can ask you first of all Henry what were you doing before the war?
HM: [laughs] [coughs] I had all sorts of jobs before the war. I left school just before the outbreak of war. Being in, I lived at Bradford at that time.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I was just leaving school. The boys without any qualifications went into the mill. Worked in the mill. From the mill I worked in a greengrocer’s shop. From the greengrocer’s shop I worked in a dye works. And then I went into garment cutting. Making waterproof clothing for the Army.
DK: Right.
HM: Cape down sheets, and dispatch rider’s waterproofs. And I stayed in that until I was called up at seventeen and a half.
DK: So what made you decide on the RAF then?
HM: Oh, I always fancied the RAF. I was in the ATC.
DK: Right.
HM: Previously to the RAF. And from the RAF at seventeen and a half it must have been November time 1943, got my call up papers to report to Viceroy Court in London.
DK: Right.
HM: That was a big block of flats that overlooked Hyde Park.
DK: Viceroy Court.
HM: Viceroy Court.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: I forget what the district was now.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But it looked over Hyde Park. And the mealtimes, part of the building went to the zoo in Hyde Park —
DK: Oh right.
HM: And were fed. And others, like myself stayed in the building. We got kitted out there with uniforms, inoculations and all that stuff. And I think it must have been sometime early December we moved up. We moved up to Usworth. A primary training. Normal primary training. Marching, saluting and all that stuff. To let, to let you know you’re in the Air Force.
DK: How did you take to that? Did you like it or was it something you, because you would you have done it in the ATC?
HM: Oh, it was something entirely new.
DK: Right.
HM: I was a bit apprehensive at first going down to London. First time really away from home.
DK: Yeah.
HM: In Bradford. A small town. Well, I’m saying it’s a small town. It’s a big town now. All on my own in a strange, trying to find this Viceroy Court. I found it rather daunting. But once I got there I was alright. When it came to moving of course we had transport from Viceroy Court to the station. Train laid on for us to go up to Usworth.
DK: Right. That’s where you did your —
HM: Northumberland.
DK: That’s where you did all your square bashing was it?
HM: Did all the square bashing.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Initial training.
DK: So at this stage then do you have any idea of what trade you wanted to do in the Air Force?
HM: I hadn’t a clue about it.
DK: So you hadn’t been divided out yet as to pilots and —
HM: Pardon?
DK: You hadn’t been divided out. Pilots, navigators, and —
HM: Oh no.
DK: No.
HM: Not up to this point.
DK: No.
HM: No. You hadn’t a clue what. What it was all about. You did various tests. Arithmetic tests and a bit of writing and so on. They decided I could go as a wireless operator/air gunner.
DK: Ok.
HM: I forget the name of the place we went to now. Anyway, whatever it was we did basically wireless operator or learning the Morse Code.
DK: Right.
HM: Practicing that.
DK: So, so these took the form of classes then were they of Morse Code. Morse Code classes.
HM: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Mostly. Yeah. There were Morse Code classes.
DK: And how many of you would be in there for the class?
HM: I should think about a dozen.
DK: Right.
HM: All tapping away going beep beep beep beep beep.
DK: And was it something you took to then was it? Something you found easy.
HM: I didn’t find it particularly easy but I managed it.
DK: Right.
HM: And also between the learning the Morse Code was learning about the Browning machine gun. The 303 Browning. Taking it to pieces. What it did. How many shots it fired. What the effective range was. And learned all those bits and pieces. I didn’t think a lot of that was necessary because if you got a fault with your guns if its more than just cocking and trying it again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: You can’t do anything because it’s so cold up there and you’ve got your gloves on and the tiny pieces. I found some of that was a bit superfluous.
DK: So what did the gunnery training consist of then? Were you, were you actually firing the guns at targets?
HM: Not at that time. No. It was just sort of introducing us to the gun.
DK: Ok. Right.
HM: Learning about it.
DK: And just taking them to pieces [unclear]
HM: Taking them to pieces and putting them together again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: We got so we could do it blindfold. And that was —
DK: Did they, did they time you then as you were?
HM: Oh no. They didn’t time you but as it got near the end of the course you’d have done it blindfold and somebody would take a piece out and you’ll be feeling all over for it. But the Morse Code. I passed on that alright. Passed on that, and we went to [pause] I can’t remember the sequence we went in but eventually we went to —
DK: Was it the Operational Training Unit?
HM: Burry training. Burry Port in South Wales.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: To an airfield there. And that was gunnery training.
DK: Right.
HM: More or less a first shooting.
DK: So what, what —
HM: The, it was a Martinet aeroplane. That was a single engine type towing a drogue.
DK: Right.
HM: And you’d go up in an Anson. I think it was four of us went up in the Anson. Took it in turns trying to shoot at the drogue. The way they could sort out who’s was what, the bullets were painted differently on the —
DK: Oh right.
HM: On the bullet itself so if it hit the drogue —
DK: You’d know whose it is.
HM: Red was yours. Blue was somebody else’s.
DK: Yeah. So did you, did you find, presumably that was the first time you’d flown then was it? In an Anson.
HM: That was the first time I’d actually flown.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So what was that like then?
HM: Well, then again it’s exciting.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Starting to fly. And that was, that was the feeling most of the time. When are we going to fly? What’s it going to be like? Will I be sick? Will I get airsick or —
DK: And, and were you?
HM: That was a worrying thing. Some did.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Most of us didn’t but —
DK: You didn’t then.
HM: I wasn’t airsick at all.
DK: So what was the Anson like? Presumably it was a bit cramped in there with four of you at the back there.
HM: It was a little bit. Yes. I remember that it was each side of the fuselage there was a little table and two of you sat at the table. You did this shooting at the drogue to see how well you could aim it and fire it.
DK: Yeah.
HM: They told you about offsetting for the distance.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And one thing and another.
DK: And was it, was it something you were, you were quite adept at? Could you, were you quite a good shot? Or —
HM: Not particularly [laughs] I must have been adequate because I passed through all right.
DK: Right. So —
HM: Then again we did a bit of Morse Code but not much of it. You just keep refreshing yourself.
DK: Yeah. So, so at this stage you could have still been —
HM: Oh, I could have been turned down. Yes.
DK: Turned down. Yeah. Or you could still have been a wireless operator as well then.
HM: I could have been a wireless operator.
DK: Yeah. So after your training then in Wales where did you move on to next?
HM: That [laughs] I can’t remember these places.
DK: Don’t worry. Yeah. Would this have been the, the OTU?
HM: Yeah. It would have been the OTU.
DK: It might actually be in the logbook.
HM: It’s probably in my logbook.
DK: Let’s have a look.
[pause]
DK: Right. So just for the recording then I’ve got number 1 AGS Pembrey so that was Gunnery School.
HM: Pembrey.
DK: Pembrey. Yeah.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Air Gunnery School. It’s got your results here. You look like you’re quite good.
HM: Are they?
DK: Yeah. Exam result ninety eight point five percent.
HM: Oh, well that’s not so bad [laughs]
Other: Wow.
HM: Yeah. Is that the —
DK: So you’re —
HM: Oh, that’s when we went to OTU is it?
DK: That’s the OTU.
HM: The Lancaster.
DK: Ok.
HM: Yeah. They were the actual flights.
DK: So that’s the flights in the Anson then.
HM: That was the flights. Yeah.
DK: So they’re from June 1944 and it’s got how many rounds you fired here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Three hundred rounds. So one to three tracers. Two hits.
HM: [laughs] Two hits.
DK: You’ve got eighteen hits here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: It says total flying nineteen hours and forty minutes. All in Ansons.
HM: In the Anson.
DK: Yeah. So that’s at the end of the training.
HM: That’s the end of the training at Pembrey.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah. Then we went to —
DK: It doesn’t actually say does it?
HM: It doesn’t say does it?
DK: So you’re on Wellingtons.
HM: Operational Training Unit.
DK: Right.
HM: In Wellingtons.
DK: So for —
HM: Then you did the crewing up.
DK: Right. So can you say a little about the crewing up then? How you all got together to form a crew?
HM: Well, you were all in a room. You chatted with various people and somebody you got on with and you’d say, ‘Oh you’re a gunner. Shall we crew up?’ ‘Yeah. We’ll be alright.’ Then you look for a navigator, or the navigator were looking for gunners. Or a pilot was looking for gunners. You finished with a crew.
DK: So, and can you remember your pilot’s name?
HM: Yes. Colin [Runji?]
DK: Right.
HM: He was an Australian.
DK: Australian.
HM: He was evidently quite a sportsman in Australia. Although being English we’d never heard of him.
DK: So he was quite famous in, in Australia then.
HM: He was quite, yeah something in Australia.
DK: Oh, here we go. At the back it says it’s 26 Operational Training Unit.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Does that ring a bell? 26 OTU.
HM: That doesn’t mean a thing to me.
DK: Right.
HM: But if you look in the records —
DK: Yeah.
HM: You’ll probably find it.
DK: Yeah. That was on the Wellingtons then.
HM: Yes.
DK: So that was between July ’44 and November ’44.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember much about flying in the Wellingtons? What it was like?
HM: Yeah. Well, we did a lot of take-off and landings. Training for the pilot. The air gunners had nothing to do. They just sat in the turrets.
DK: Right.
HM: And hoped for the best.
DK: So were you, for these training flights then were you sitting in the, in the rear turret?
HM: In the turret.
DK: Yeah.
HM: In the rear turret or mid-upper turret.
DK: Yeah. Would you be in the rear turret when you took off then?
HM: If I was in the rear turret. We used to swap around.
DK: Right.
HM: Sometimes be in the rear. Sometimes the mid-upper.
DK: Yeah. So how did you find the Wellington then as an aircraft? Did you feel quite safe in it?
HM: Oh yeah. Yes. No problems with flying with it.
DK: Right.
HM: They [pause]
DK: But you felt quite safe.
HM: What can I say? Oh yes.
DK: ’Cause you mentioned earlier about an incident where the pilot landed and he shouldn’t have done.
HM: Yeah. That’s in the Wellington.
DK: Right. Can you just repeat that? What happened?
HM: Well, I don’t, I don’t think I made a comment about it because we didn’t know that until after the flight.
DK: Right.
HM: He just disappeared. And when making enquiries we found that he’d been sent home or whatever it was.
DK: So what, what had he done wrong?
HM: Well, coming in to land he was doing a circuit. He come into what they called funnels. The pilot’s flying nice and steady ready to land. Got the gear down, the flaps down, and you as you were approaching you’re supposed to watch for a verey pistol.
DK: Right.
HM: Or you’re supposed to notice it if was fired. Well, this particular flight there’s a red verey pistol fired and evidently the pilot didn’t seen it.
DK: So if he had seen it he should have gone around again.
HM: He should have gone around again.
DK: Yeah. Because why would, do you know why it was fired? Was there something on the ground?
HM: Well, it would only be if there was somebody on the runway.
DK: Right.
HM: Ready. Getting ready to take off.
DK: Right.
HM: So he was sat at the end of the runway. You sort of went over the top of him.
DK: So there might have been a collision then.
HM: Oh, quite possible.
DK: So he just, he went. So you got a new pilot then.
HM: So we, started well basically we went to the end of that course and then crew up again.
DK: Oh right.
HM: With another. Make another crew.
DK: So you had to crew up all over again.
HM: All over again. And then really start the course again.
DK: Oh. So this is, this is when you would have then got the Australian pilot
HM: That’s when we got —
DK: The second time around.
HM: No. The first time.
DK: Oh the first time. Right.
HM: The first time it was an Australian pilot.
DK: Right.
HM: Then we [pause] I put my glasses away, I want them.
DK: Have you’ve got his name there?
HM: Yes. [Runji]
DK: [Runji]
HM: Lots of different pilots.
DK: Yeah.
HM: As [Runji] Then flew there. Warrant Officer Wild. [Runji] [unclear] [Runji] Watkins. But, but [Runji] was the main pilot at, in the OTU.
DK: Right.
HM: [ ] [pause] at the end of the course as I say we crewed up again.
DK: Right. So that’s the second time.
HM: This is the second time around.
DK: Right.
HM: When we flew with somebody called [Adey?], Flying Officer Bond. Then we got Sergeant Crawford who ended up our pilot.
DK: So —
HM: We flew with him for the rest of the time.
DK: So Crawford became your pilot.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Second time around. Right.
HM: Yeah. And he was a sergeant.
DK: Right.
HM: Evidently, as far as I can make out he was in the Air Force when war broke out. He was an engine fitter on one of the [pause] no, on one of the [pause]
DK: A pre-war thing was it?
HM: The [pause] big water platform.
DK: Oh the Flying Boats.
HM: The [pause]
DK: Seaplane?
HM: Just had a new one. Must have been commissioned just recently.
Other: Aircraft carrier.
DK: Oh aircraft.
Other: Aircraft carrier.
DK: I’m with you. I’m with you. Right.
HM: He was on an aircraft carrier.
DK: Right. Ok.
HM: Somewhere out east.
DK: Right.
HM: And as soon as war broke out and he asked to be remustered.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: And then he came back to England. Then he went out Canada for his pilot’s training. Did his training in various aeroplanes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Then he came back to England and then finished up.
DK: At the OTU.
HM: Yeah. The OTU.
DK: So that was Sergeant Crawford then.
HM: Sergeant Crawford.
DK: And was he a good pilot?
HM: He was. Yes.
DK: Yeah. You felt confident then with him did you?
HM: I felt very confident with him. Something else. I wish I’d made more comments.
DK: Yeah.
HM: About what went on.
DK: So how —
HM: On one of the [pause] No. It’s not there. On one of the flights, it was a night time flights everything was going all right. Taxied round, end of the runway. Started taking off. Just got off the ground and he had to close one of the engines down. There was something overheating or something and Mayday. Mayday. And he just flew around and landed again on one engine. So he must have been a reasonable pilot.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: That was a bit scary. You didn’t know whether the aeroplane would fly with the one engine or not.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But he made a very good job of it.
DK: Yeah. So you felt quite confident with him after that.
HM: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
DK: So did you have a conversation with him about what had happened to the engines, do you know or did you just —
HM: Well, it wouldn’t mean a thing to me.
DK: Right.
HM: It was a runaway prop.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I didn’t know what a runaway prop was. I still don’t.
DK: So after, how did you feel then about having to do the training twice? And have to go back again.
HM: Not very happy because it —
DK: No.
HM: The crewing up with [Runji] then having to go through it again.
DK: Yeah.
HM: That was annoying. But once we got —
DK: Crawford.
HM: Our pilot. Crawford. We were quite happy. We’d got a, we’d got a crew. We got on very well together.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And that’s the one on the, on the picture there.
DK: Ok. So just for the recording then just looking at your logbook then it says here you then went on to 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit.
HM: Yeah. That’s when we converted to the Lancaster.
DK: Right.
HM: And that was at —
DK: Langar.
HM: Pardon?
DK: Langar.
HM: Langar.
DK: Langar.
HM: Yes. Up in Nottinghamshire I believe it is.
DK: So that was at the Heavy Conversion Unit then and we’re talking February 1945. Is that? Or was it ’44?
HM: February. Oh it might have been.
DK: Yeah. Because that’s ’44.
HM: I joined the squadron in early March.
DK: Right. So the Heavy Conversion Unit then would be February.
HM: Langar, yeah. That was converting to the four engines.
DK: Right. So how did you feel? That was the first time you saw the Lancaster then was it? Close up.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And what did you think?
HM: Oh, we’re going up in those [laughs] How does it stay up there? But —
DK: So was it quite a change after the Wellington then?
HM: Yes. Because the Wellington, two engines it was a smaller aircraft. You think fine. But when you get to the size of a Lancaster. And in the Wellington you did evasive action.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But it’s hard doing evasive action in the Lancaster. A big aeroplane doing acrobatics. You wondered how it’s going to go but it went very well.
DK: Yeah. So you felt quite confident in flying in those.
HM: Yeah.
DK: I see here you flew as the mid-upper gunner.
HM: Yeah.
DK: What was that like then? What were the views like?
HM: Oh, the views was fantastic. I would say you could look all around.
DK: Yeah. And presumably it’s here that you got the extra crew because there’s more crew in a Lancaster than the Wellington.
HM: No. We still had the full crew.
DK: Oh right. In Wellingtons.
HM: We just had the same crew in the Lancaster as we had in the Wellington.
DK: Oh ok. So that was, that was just training then on the Lancaster just to get —
HM: Just training on the Lancaster
DK: Yeah. Yeah
HM: And getting used to it.
DK: Yeah.
HM: How to evacuate quickly and that sort of thing [laughs]
DK: Right. And then it’s got, looking at your logbook here we’ve then got March 1945 you’ve got to 138 Squadron.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So can you say a little bit about 138 Squadron? What they were?
HM: 138 Squadron is a mysterious squadron. As I say it was a Special Operations Unit before I joined. They were flying Lancasters. Before we joined they were basically Halifaxes.
DK: Right.
HM: And Lysanders. Their job was to take ammunition and food to the Resistance. So instead of going out in a bomber stream.
DK: Yeah.
HM: They’d go out in a single Lancaster to a field somewhere in France and drop the supplies to the Resistance.
DK: Oh right.
HM: Or the Auster. That was the single engined. Do you know the Auster?
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
HM: Yeah. Fixed undercarriage. Single engine. If there was a special agent wanting to be picked up and brought back to England then they’d use the Auster.
DK: Right.
HM: Then again find somewhere. Find a field somewhere in France. Land. You’d probably drop an agent. Pick another agent up.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Pick one coming back then take off and bring them home.
DK: Right.
HM: Most of it was at night. Well, it was all night time. The nickname for 138 Squadron at the time was The Moonlight. Moonlight squadron.
DK: Right.
HM: Or Tempsford Taxis. Obviously they were based at Tempsford.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: And with the taxiing service in and out to France or Germany whatever. You got the taxi then.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But when, when I joined it was decided that they were not, it was after D-Day, that it was no longer needed because they take the agents in on the ground from there.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So they reverted to Bomber Command.
DK: Right.
HM: And that’s when I joined them.
DK: So by that point it was an ordinary bomber squadron.
HM: It was an ordinary bomber squadron. Yes. Whereas before, reading about it now when I, in the bomber squadron all the crews went to the briefing. With that there was just a pilot, navigator and bomb aimer.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Only those that need know knew where they were going and what they were doing.
DK: Right.
HM: So the air gunner would go along. Not knowing where they were going. They might discuss it amongst themselves.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But they weren’t supposed to. Go out and come back again but they weren’t allowed to discuss it with another aircrew.
DK: Right.
HM: Missions were never discussed between aircrews.
DK: So —
HM: It was very secretive.
DK: Yeah. So what, what then is kind of your role as an air gunner? What are you supposed to do?
HM: Yeah.
DK: On an operation.
HM: On an operation you just sit there in the turret scanning, looking for any enemy aircraft. Which I never saw.
DK: No.
HM: Never fired my guns in anger.
DK: Right. You’d have tested the guns presumably on the way over did you?
HM: You could do but we never did.
DK: Right.
HM: Well, we didn’t.
DK: Is that, I notice when you joined the squadron you’d gone on some training trips. One with an H2S radar.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And another one with GH bombing. Was that the GH bombing on?
HM: Yeah. That, that is basically for the navigators. Navigators —
DK: Yeah.
HM: GHS or HS2 and the Gee were all navigational aids.
DK: Right. And you’ve got something here. Just special training. You can’t remember what the special training was can you?
HM: Special training.
DK: Bit mysterious. Maybe you can’t tell me.
HM: I haven’t a clue.
DK: Ok. So looking at your logbook again then it’s got your first operation here was to Kiel.
HM: Yes.
DK: So what was it like then when you finally —
HM: Kiel?
DK: Got an operation?
HM: Well, it’s exciting. We hadn’t been in long enough. We hadn’t experienced a bombing raid. We didn’t know what to expect. I was excited. And well, we flew out. Nothing, nothing untoward happened.
DK: Yeah.
HM: There were searchlights and the flak but you expected that.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve gone out as the mid-upper gunner on this raid.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And can you remember seeing much of the target itself when you were over Kiel?
HM: Yes.
DK: What was that like?
HM: Basically if that’s Kiel you flew across, it’s like, where Germany and Denmark. It’s —
DK: The border.
HM: What do they call it?
Other: Jutland?
HM: The prominence of Denmark.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: A strip of land.
HM: There’s a border it goes across.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Well, we flew across the part of Germany which was close to the border with Denmark. And as you’re flying along you could, you could see the fire, ‘That’s it. That’s it.’
DK: Yeah.
HM: That must be the target.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Now, yes. And no. That’s not it. And we were flying along and the navigator made a mistake or something. We flew past the target. When navigator realised that he’d gone wrong we had to do a loop.
DK: Right.
HM: The pilot wouldn’t turn around and go that way because he’d be joining the bomber stream. He’d be flying against them.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So he went around that way and joined the stream again.
DK: Right. So you went over the target.
HM: So we then flew towards the target.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Bombs away. Let’s go home.
DK: Could, when the bombs were dropped did you notice any turbulence or whatever.
HM: Oh yeah.
DK: You were flying up.
HM: The result was that bit of lift.
DK: Yeah. So you’ve come back from your first operation then though it hadn’t gone according to plan.
HM: Yeah.
DK: How did you feel when you got back?
HM: Oh, it’s hard to remember [pause] We just thought well that’s that.
DK: Yeah.
HM: That’s it.
DK: Job done.
HM: That’s done. The job done.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Wait for the next.
DK: And did you have to go along to a debriefing, or anything? Were you debriefed?
HM: Yes. When you landed you went to debrief. And the intelligence office, officers there. The crew was all there. What was your experience? Did you notice anything? Did you? How did it go? Or as I say we’d no experience. Just a, just a normal flight. Just flak.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: Just searchlights. But nothing affected us.
DK: Yeah.
HM: It was all going on around you but —
DK: So your aircraft was never hit by flak then.
HM: Not that particular time. It was later on.
DK: Oh, ok. Ok.
HM: That was on the [pause] about a few days later we went again to Kiel.
DK: Right. I’m just looking at the logbook here. This is —
HM: Yeah.
DK: Just for the recording. You’ve gone to Kiel on the 9th of April.
HM: Yeah.
DK: And it’s
HM: That was our first one.
DK: And you’ve actually got here the German ship the Admiral Scheer sank.
HM: Oh, that was the second.
DK: Was that the second one?
HM: That was on the second one.
DK: Ok.
HM: No. There’s two there. And the Admiral Scheer was sank the second. That’s why we went back a second time.
DK: Right. And did you see the battleship down there?
HM: No.
DK: No.
HM: No. We were too high.
DK: Yeah. So you did, let’s say Kiel on the 9th of April. Then the 13th of April Kiel again.
HM: Yes. That was when the Admiral Scheer was sunk.
DK: Right. And then 14th of April you’ve then gone to Potsdam.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yeah. The following night. We thought that was a bit rough is that. Two. One after the other.
DK: Yeah. And then —
HM: But then thinking about it ‘43 and ‘44 when the bombing was really going, they’d be doing that every week. Three or four times a week they’d be flying.
DK: Yeah. And then looking at your logbook again you’ve then done a daylight raid because it’s in green.
HM: Yes. Heligoland. Heligoland.
DK: Heligoland. So that was on the 18th of April.
HM: Yeah.
DK: ‘45.
HM: That was [laughs] A bit of a dead duck.
DK: Right.
HM: Heligoland, I don’t even know where it is. It’s just, as I say Denmark land. Germany. And it’s just a little island.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Evidently, it was a naval spotting station and spotting transport where our ships were.
DK: Right.
HM: And there again, there was a little bit of flak. There wasn’t a lot.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Because it was such a small island. No searchlights evidently because it was daylight.
DK: Yeah. Could you see a lot more of the other aircraft then in daylight? What was the —
HM: Yeah. You could see them around you.
DK: Yeah. But presumably you couldn’t see them at night time.
HM: At night time you couldn’t.
DK: No.
HM: I did once.
DK: Right.
HM: Then again I should have made a note of it. At Heligoland you could see the torpedo boats feeding away out from the island. The island was just one cloud of bomb bursts.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: You couldn’t see much of the land for the smoke and debris from the bombs.
DK: So that was hit quite hard then.
HM: Pardon?
DK: It was hit quite hard was it?
HM: Yeah.
DK: You say you saw an aircraft at night.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Was that quite nearby?
HM: That was a night flight. There again I don’t know which flight it was.
DK: No.
HM: Because I never made a note of it. I was in the mid-upper gun, mid-upper turret and suddenly there was this shadow went up. We were going and it went up in front of us.
DK: Right.
HM: I recognised it as a Lancaster. At night time. No lights. No nothing but there was this shadow went up in front of us.
DK: Right.
HM: If it had gone up a minute or two later or we’d been a minute or two earlier we’d have —
DK: Collided.
HM: Real come to.
DK: Was that, was that a bit of a frightening thing to see then was it?
HM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: He was doing evasive action. I don’t see why they should do it at night.
DK: Right.
HM: Because you’ve got, I don’t know how many aircraft were on that raid but if you could have five or six hundred or the thousand bomber raid going over the target for some time. Granted the aircraft are stacked and the first ones would be higher, the ones behind them should be a bit lower.
DK: Yeah.
HM: But you’ve always got that creep. Someone’s got there a bit early. Some had got there a bit late. So there’s bound to be some mix up.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And if you start weaving about in a stream of aircraft. He, he couldn’t see any other aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
HM: All he is doing is just hoping for the best. His gunner must have seen something and told the pilot to corkscrew. But that was it.
DK: Yeah. Could have been, could have ended a bit disastrously couldn’t it?
HM: It could have done.
DK: So after that you’ve then done on the 22nd of April ‘45 a daylight raid to Bremen. Do you remember going to Bremen?
HM: Yes.
DK: And you’ve got here in brackets flak holes. Is that when you’ve been hit?
HM: Came back with some holes in it. Yeah.
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So what was that like then? When your aircraft was hit?
HM: Well it, quite normal. There’s plenty of flak, plenty of [pause] plenty going on and suddenly and there’s click click. ‘Has somebody dropped something?’ [laughs] No answer from the crew. Just as though you were driving along and somebody threw a stone at you.
DK: Yeah
HM: Or there was a mob throwing stones at you. But fortunately nothing, nothing was hit that was vital.
DK: Yeah.
HM: None of On the controls or oil pipes. It was just a hole in the fuselage.
DK: Right. Right. Was that anywhere near you? The hole in the fuselage or—
HM: I think it was actually by the bomb bay.
DK: Oh right. So almost underneath you then.
HM: Well, near. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Just forward of the mid-upper gunner.
DK: So, so then you’ve got one more raid. What does that say? Operation the Hague. You see that one there. It’s a daylight one again. It’s a [unclear] one.
HM: Oh yes. Holland was starving.
DK: Right.
HM: They were all, they wanted some food. Somehow they made communication with the Germans. We could go in and drop food in Holland as long as we drove on a, or flew on a specific line.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Course. At a certain height. They’d let us go in and drop food and nobody would fire at us. Hopefully [laughs]
DK: So this this —
HM: So that was dropping food at the Hague. Holland.
DK: Oh right. Right. It is the Hague then. So that’s what became known as Operation Manna then.
HM: Operation Manna.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: We did that a couple of times I think.
DK: So that to the Hague then was the 3rd of May. And then you’ve got another one. Operation Manna on the 8th of May.
HM: Yeah.
DK: It looks like you’ve done two trips there.
HM: Yeah.
DK: Right. So could you see the people on the ground as you were dropping the food?
HM: Oh yeah. Yeah. You could see them walking about. There were civilians waving.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Looking up at you.
DK: So how did you feel about that then? Dropping the food after dropping bombs. It was it a bit different.
HM: Well, it felt a bit strange really seeing the Germans down there walking about [laughs] and you’re flying.
DK: So you could actually see the Germans down below as well.
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So you were very low level then.
HM: Yeah. I think it was about a thousand feet.
DK: Right.
HM: Something like that. And then there was after that there’s Exodus.
DK: Yeah. Operation Exodus. So what was Operation Exodus like?
HM: That was bringing prisoners of war back.
DK: Right.
HM: We flew out. We flew to a base at Juvencourt in France. Picked up I think it was about twenty. Twenty ex-prisoners of war.
DK: Right.
HM: The sat around in the fuselage. We’d land. They’d come and climb in and find themselves a perch. Then we’d fly back again.
DK: Right. So how many of those trips did you do?
HM: About four or five I think.
DK: Right. And did you speak to the ex-POWs? Were they —
HM: Well, what we’d called, I mean to say you didn’t get much chance because you was in the turret. As soon as you landed it was basically loading them on
DK: Right
HM: And then taking off and coming home again.
DK: Right.
DK: So they were quite relieved to be going home were they?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. Had some of them been a prisoners for a length of time do you know?
HM: I would imagine so. I’ve no idea. Like I said, we didn’t really get a chance to speak to them. Then again when you’re flying you can’t have a conversation.
DK: No.
HM: Because of the noise.
DK: Yeah.
HM: We could be this close. I could shout at you and not tell what I was saying unless you were watching me and could do a bit of lip reading.
DK: No. Just going back to that what were the conditions like then as a mid-upper gunner? Presumably you’re were very cold up there.
HM: It was cold. Yeah.
DK: What were you wearing?
HM: Well, you were wearing your normal clothes. In fact you got issued with some special underwear. Long johns and long sleeves.
DK: Yeah.
HM: There was a mixture of wool and silk. Climbed in to that and then your normal uniform on top of that, and then you’d have a padded, padded overalls thing on
DK: Right
HM: Like a boiler suit done up the front. And then you got your overall. The one that you see us wearing on some of the pictures I think. It’s just sort of a canvas flying suit.
DK: Right. So, so altogether then you flew well one, two, three, four, five. Five. Five operations.
HM: Five. Five operations. Yes.
DK: And then a couple of Manna trips and the Exodus trips.
HM: Yeah. Well, they weren’t counted as operations.
DK: No. No.
HM: The five as you go along. That would have been counted towards you —
DK: The tour.
HM: Tour.
DK: Yes. And that would have still been thirty if the war had gone on.
HM: Oh, it would have been thirty.
DK: So how did you feel then as the war’s ended? Were you quite relieved at that point?
HM: Yeah. I suppose we were.
DK: Yeah. And did —
HM: The airfield just, just erupted. I don’t know where they came from but there were verey pistols firing off all over the place.
DK: And just go back a bit. Did you meet any of your crew off duty at all? Did you get to know them?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah. So what did you do?
HM: Yeah.
DK: On your off duty time.
HM: We’d usually go along to the local pub. You get to know the locals.
DK: Yeah. And, and did you keep in touch with the rest of the crew after the war?
HM: No. We didn’t.
DK: No. No. So you’ve all gone your separate ways then.
HM: We all went our separate ways.
DK: You haven’t been in touch with them since.
HM: No.
DK: No.
HM: When I got married the wireless operator, I sent invites to them all but there was only the wireless operator turned up.
DK: Right. So —
HM: I heard later Howard, he’s always on the internet looking at things. Our pilot evidently emigrated to Canada.
DK: Right.
HM: And there was an obit. I’m presuming it was our pilot. There’s an obituary to a Flying Officer Crawford who had died in a nursing home. He was a bit older than we were. I think he was about twenty eight, twenty nine.
DK: Yeah.
HM: When we was only, I was nineteen.
DK: Yeah.
HM: So he was an old man.
DK: Yeah [laughs]
HM: Evidently this pilot officer Andrew Robertson Crawford had died in this nursing home in Toronto.
DK: Oh right.
HM: Who’d emigrated from England after flying with the RAF. That’s all that’s all there was it.
DK: Sounds like it would probably be him them.
HM: And a bit of what he’d done in Canada. He’d gone to college and qualified as some sort of engineer.
DK: Right.
HM: Although he was qualified with the RAF as an aero engineer.
DK: Yeah.
HM: He’d qualified as something else over there.
DK: So presumably you left the RAF quite soon afterwards then did you?
HM: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
HM: When I came home on leave I used to visit the place where I worked beforehand. The garment cutter.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: And one time I went the boss asked me, ‘Would you like to come out?’ I’d just met the wife then, or girlfriend and I said yes. He said, ‘I’ll try and see what I can do.’ Of course, if you’d got a job to go to and the boss enquired can you come home you were allowed early release.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
HM: So within about a week of that, seeing the boss and him saying yes I was on my way home. Demobbed.
DK: Wow. So it happened quite quickly then.
HM: Oh, it did.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Yes.
DK: Quite, quite unusual from some of the people I’ve spoken to. Hanging on for months before they got demobbed.
HM: If you, if you got a job to go to I believe it could be, could be done.
DK: Oh, ok. Ok.
HM: And evidently he wanted me back so —
DK: So, so how do you after all these years how do you look back on your time in the RAF? How do you feel now about it?
HM: Quite happy about it. I thought it was [pause] I thought it was a good spell.
DK: Yeah.
HM: It’s an experience you couldn’t have anywhere else. Yeah. It was quite, I found it quite a good experience.
DK: Yeah. You found it useful in later life then did you? Sort of that experience.
HM: Not really [laughs]
DK: Oh [laughs] Ok. I’ve just got your photo here.
HM: Yeah.
DK: I wonder if, are you still able to name, name the crew? So that’s, that’s to the recording here that’s a Lancaster of 138 Squadron.
HM: That’s a Lancaster of 138 Squadron.
DK: And that’s the one you flew on operations.
HM: Yeah.
DK: So do you know, can you name them all here?
HM: Yes. There’s —
DK: So that’s, that’s the ground crew presumably at the front there.
HM: That’s the ground crew. I can’t remember their names.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: That’s Ted Bramsgrove. He was the navigator. Then there’s me. Then there’s Tom Kelsall, he was the engineer. That was the pilot, Flying officer Crawford.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Eric Scott. He was the bomb aimer. Oh, what’s his first? Fry was his surname. He was the wireless operator. And Duncan MacGregor he was the other gunner.
DK: So he would normally be in the rear gun turret would he?
HM: Yeah.
DK: For the most part. Though you did swap over didn’t you, at times?
HM: We did swap over. Yeah.
DK: So they were a good crew then were they?
HM: They were. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
HM: Yes. He was a farmer. He was a school teacher. He was a shop assistant. I don’t know what Mac was.
DK: So quite varied.
HM: He was Irish. He’d come from Northern Ireland.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Belfast.
DK: So quite a varied background then.
HM: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah. And that’s your ground crew there.
HM: That’s the ground crew.
DK: Yeah.
HM: Which looked after the aircraft.
DK: So did you have much to do with the ground crew at all? Or —
HM: Not a lot. No.
DK: No. You just wanted to make sure the aircraft was ok.
HM: You’d chat to them when you went out to dispersal to climb in.
DK: So that’s you there then. Second from the end.
HM: Yeah. Second on the left.
DK: Second on the left. Ok then, that’s —
HM: I’m thinking you must, I think Howard had that.
DK: Yeah.
HM: And he asked me what all the names were.
DK: Yeah.
HM: I think he sent that.
DK: Yes. If he hasn’t I’ll make sure he does.
HM: Yeah.
DK: That’s a great photo that. Ok then. I think that will do. I’ll, but thanks for that. I’ll turn off. Turn this off now. Thanks for your time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Henry Moss
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMossH181114, PMossH1801
Format
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00:55:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Henry grew up in Bradford and left school just before the outbreak of war. He had various jobs like working in the mill, a greengrocer’s shop, the dye works and then garment cutting for the army. At 17 and a half was called up in London where he was kitted out and had the necessary inoculations. He had been in the Air Training Corps so chose to apply for the Royal Air Force. He was told he could be a wireless operator air gunner, trained in Morse code and learned about the .303 Browning. The recruits were sent to RAF Pembrey in South Wales for gunnery training where they worked on Martinets and Ansons. They then went to 26 Operation Training Unit to crew up and fly on Wellingtons. Henry spent time at 1669 Heavy Conversion Unit in Nottinghamshire to train on Lancasters as mid-upper gunner. He was posted to 138 Squadron which was a special operations unit working on Halifaxes and Lysanders aircraft dropping supplies to the resistance. They also dropped off or picked up agents in France. Their first two operations were to Kiel. Henry recalled a daylight operation to Bremen in 1945 when they suffered a hole in the fuselage from anti-aircraft fire. During the war they did five operations in all, plus trips for Operation Manna and Exodus. The crew did not keep in touch after the war. When Henry was demobbed he went back to work for the army garment firm.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Bradford
England--London
Wales--Carmarthenshire
France
Germany
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Kiel
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
138 Squadron
1669 HCU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lysander
Martinet
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Langar
RAF Pembrey
RAF Tempsford
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/996/10627/PTitmanEA1801.1.jpg
6cf1a77777a4844aa558eb13b275fbb0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/996/10627/ATitmanEA181005.2.mp3
10df5247e71f7c8267808fc5c93f5b58
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Titman, Nancy
E A Titman
Edith Annie Titman
Edith Annie Swift
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Nancy Titman (b. 1918), two information leaflets and a Conservative party news-sheet. See Nancy Titman 'Swift to Tell: Life in the 1920s - 30s'.
Collection catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Titman, EA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, so that’s working ok. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre Interviewing Mrs Titman at her home on, well it would be, well that’s the 5th of, the 5th of October 2018 and daughter —
MA: Yes. Marion.
DK: Marion Ashton, her daughter. Right. Ok. I’ll just put that there. So, what I wanted to ask first of all and I hope you don’t mind me saying this for the benefit of the recording but you’re one hundred years old.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, you were born in 1918.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, that was towards the end of the First World War and did your family, father or uncles serve in the First World War?
NT: I lost an uncle in the First World War.
DK: Right.
MA: And Marion’s been to his grave. Haven’t you?
MA: Yes.
DK: Right.
MA: And something about Aunt Et.
NT: Yes. And my aunt was a nurse. A sister.
DK: Right.
NT: At the Horton Hospital in Epsom which was a huge military hospital.
DK: Right. So, your uncle then, where was he killed? Do you know where it was?
NT: I can’t remember.
DK: On the Western Front somewhere, was it?
NT: Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely.
MA: I think so —
NT: Marion’s been.
MA: His grave. But I’ve forgotten now.
NT: Yeah. Yeah. Never mind.
DK: Yeah. So, as you were growing up then and it’s, it’s end of the First World War, 1920s, do you have any reminiscences going back that far of, of —
NT: No. We, I can’t remember. Nobody talked very much about the war. No.
DK: That’s what I was going to say.
NT: But we always had the Memorial at church and big parades, you know. Armistice Parades. Ever such a lot of people. Ever such a lot of men obviously been in the First World War when we were kids.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Didn’t you say they would only talk about it really, really when they were old —
NT: Oh yeah.
MA: And about to die. Then they probably would say something —
DK: Yeah.
MA: About it.
DK: So, whereabouts were you born then? Which town?
NT: I was born here. About five hundred yards from here.
DK: Oh, ok. So —
NT: I’ve not moved very far.
DK: So, have you lived here all your life?
NT: Yes. I’m a native.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MA: She’s well known.
DK: Well — [laughs]
NT: Yeah. Yeah. You can’t, you can’t have a better spot.
DK: So, are you one of the oldest in the village now then?
NT: I think, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Probably.
DK: So, growing up here then what was it like? Well, we’re talking about eighty years ago. Over that time.
NT: You can hardly believe it was the same now. When you think back, you know. I’ve written stories in the book.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was so primitive really because we had an outside lav and no water in the house. We had a pump in the yard.
DK: And what were most of the people working here? Were most of them working on the farms?
NT: Most of them worked on —
DK: Yeah.
NT: In some way. They were connected with agriculture in some way.
DK: So, what, what were your parents doing?
NT: My father was a cattle dealer.
DK: Right.
NT: And I used to go out with him in a pony and trap around the fields and we used to count. Count the heads. How many sheep, how many cattle because they used to move them from one field to another to go to market. You know, on the way to market.
DK: Right.
NT: It was good. I had a good childhood. Went to school across the road here where, where Marion went. Where we all went.
DK: So, what was the name of the school then?
NT: That was the Cross School.
DK: Right. And where —
MA: Because you’ve seen the stone cross.
DK: Yes.
MA: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MA: It’s right next, its right next to it.
DK: Right next to it. Yeah. And was it a good school?
NT: Yeah. There were about five or six teachers weren’t there? There were about —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Two, two teachers at the infant school.
DK: Right.
NT: And about five in the —
MA: Primary.
NT: Cross School and that was the education department of Deeping St James.
DK: Right. So, the town then was a lot smaller then.
NT: Yes. Well, I think it was about fifteen hundred population.
DK: And how long did the pupils stay at the school for? Did they leave at —
NT: Oh, until they were fourteen.
DK: Fourteen.
NT: That was it.
DK: And that was the same with the boys and the girls.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And of course, a few people lucky enough to pass the Eleven Plus and got a scholarship to Spalding or Stamford.
DK: So, did you leave at fourteen then?
NT: No. I left at eleven. I got a scholarship.
DK: Oh. Ok.
NT: I went to Stamford High School then.
DK: Right.
NT: Then I went to Peterborough Training College to train to be a teacher.
DK: Right. And, and was that something you’d always wanted to do then?
NT: Yeah, there wasn’t much. There wasn’t much open to you. You’d either be a nurse or a teacher.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Or something like that.
DK: So, what did the boys go off to do when they were fourteen?
NT: Well, most of them worked in agriculture or an office or something like that. Depending on their —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Or apprenticed to be a carpenter or a mechanic or something.
DK: Right. So, did you see teaching as something to get away from what a lot of other people were doing?
NT: Well, yeah. Earn a living.
DK: Earn a living. Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So where did you train to be a teacher then?
NT: At Peterborough.
DK: Right.
NT: It was a good. It was a good college. It was a church college and we were the last. We were the last students because they closed it after we left.
DK: Oh right. So, you have happy memories there then.
NT: Very. Very.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It’s all in this.
DK: Yeah. I’ll probably need a copy of the book.
NT: You’ll have to. You’ll have to read the book [laughs]
DK: Read the book. So, so we’re talking about now — ? Where are we? Sort of nineteen —
NT: Yes. Getting a job.
DK: We’re talking of —
NT: This is where the story starts.
DK: Right. Ok then. Do you want to tell us about the —
NT: Well —
DK: The job then?
NT: When, in 1938 I passed the, you know, got the [pause] became a teacher. Went to get an interview for a job. Went to Cambridge to an interview and doing —
MA: It’s all in there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
NT: Then had to go to London for a medical exam to County Hall.
DK: Right.
NT: Which was by Westminster Bridge. Near where the wheel is now.
DK: I know it well. I used to work across the road from there.
NT: Anyway, this going for the medical or coming back I’d be walking down Whitehall thinking I was the bee’s knees.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Somebody gave me this leaflet and this is the one I’ve lost.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Really mad.
NT: You know. What to do, and war was coming. There was, warning you about it and you weren’t to gossip and all this and to be ready for it and so on which, it was a good leaflet, wasn’t it? It was a real good leaflet. I’m so annoyed I’ve lost it.
DK: So, this leaflet was handed out to you.
NT: Yes.
DK: By a total stranger.
NT: Yeah. That’s right. Somebody.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was 1938. And then of course I got a job at Everington Street in Fulham. That was, that three-storey school. You know, all those in London.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Those. There used to be a big playground and we had senior girls at the top and infants at the bottom.
DK: Right. Oh right. Ok.
NT: And we had.
DK: That was in Fulham.
NT: The head mistress was Miss Bolton.
DK: Right. So, you’d have been twenty years old at the time then.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, was this kind of your first time away from home?
NT: Yes.
MA: Yes, she was quite excited, weren’t you?
NT: Yes.
MA: Being in London instead of being —
NT: I was thrilled.
MA: In Deeping St James.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I stayed with a cousin for a week or two just to get me started before I found some digs.
DK: So, what, how did you find the difference living, being born out here and then going to the big city in London?
NT: Well, it was different, of course but I enjoyed it [laughs] Yeah, it was interesting.
DK: So —
NT: Everybody was kind.
DK: Yeah. So just going back to this leaflet that was being handed out down Whitehall. Was that an official leaflet?
NT: No. I don’t, well I don’t know it was official. I don’t think it was really. I suppose it must have been. I don’t know. I can’t remember now.
MA: But you didn’t think much of it but you kept it.
NT: Yeah.
MA: We can look it for it again.
NT: I mean, looks —
MA: She’s still got it somewhere.
DK: Right. Ok.
NT: Lots of people have been and asked about war. I had a lady who was writing a book and I gave her lots of bits but I’m sure I didn’t give her that.
DK: No.
NT: And I’ve been through every scrapbook and I can’t find it.
DK: So —
MA: It’s bigger than this wasn’t it?
NT: Yes.
MA: Was it about that size?
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
MA: Yeah.
DK: So, so 1938 then this would have been the time of the Munich Crisis.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Were you aware of what was going on in the world at the time then?
NT: Not particularly. No. We knew. You tried, you tried not to believe it because you didn’t think it was real because Mr Chamberlain had assured us everything was going to be alright after his visit with Hitler, you know.
DK: Peace in our time.
NT: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
NT: So, you know like you carry on with your life don’t you and you hope for the best.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But then we knew because we, we had to do gas mask training and all this.
DK: Yeah.
NT: All these things. We knew it was coming later on.
DK: And, and, this might sound an odd question now but when you were with your work colleagues. The other teachers. Did you talk about the world situation and the fact there might be a war or was it something you kept —
NT: Didn’t talk about it very much. We tried [laughs] tried to think it wasn’t going to happen.
DK: Right. So, what were you actually teaching at the school then?
NT: Infants.
DK: Right. So, it was a wide range of subjects.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Were they well behaved?
MA: Well behaved? They were in those days.
NT: Oh, they were. They were very well behaved. Ever so good.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I don’t think, I can’t remember anything bad happening. They were all good kids.
DK: Right.
NT: You know, they must have been but you forget about that, don’t you?
MA: When you told me the story about being evacuated. I, I always think that they would cry.
DK: Yeah.
MA: And not want to —
DK: And they were —
NT: But they didn’t.
DK: So, just for the benefit of the recording not everybody knows what Infant’s is because I think they’ve changed the description now. So how old were the children? Between what age group? Were they five?
NT: The ones that I taught?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Oh, about five. Just after reception. Six. Five or six.
DK: Five and six. Right.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Ok. And how, how did your lessons go? Were you, were you there and —
NT: Yeah. I can’t remember now. You know what you just.
MA: You could play the piano as well.
NT: Oh yeah.
MA: So they could sing.
NT: We used to sing a lot and stories and all that. Taught them to read and write as you always do.
MA: Basic math.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And, and even the children at that age did they understand anything? That there might be a war coming?
NT: No.
DK: So —
NT: They wouldn’t bother about it all.
DK: No. So going back.
NT: Expect they’d have to.
DK: Sorry.
NT: Go in these blessed masks. Gas masks, which weren’t very good. Smelled horrible, and ugh.
DK: So, did you have to show the children then how to put the gas masks on?
NT: I think, I think we went to a centre. I can’t remember now. I think we went to a centre and had a go at it, you know. I don’t —
DK: Yeah.
NT: I can’t remember those things very much. It’s all gone hazy.
DK: Yeah.
MA: It’s a while ago.
DK: It is now. So, moving on to the following year now you’re still in London. 1939 and the war starts. Can you remember your, your feelings then of how it got to you?
NT: Oh, we were a bit apprehensive I can tell you but you just had to accept it because what could you do? Nothing. Well, you just accepted it.
DK: So, did you remain in London for the beginning of the war period?
NT: No. We were evacuated on the 1st of September.
DK: Right.
NT: And war started on the 3rd and it’s in my little story —
DK: Yeah.
NT: We went to wait. Wait for the transport, I suppose. We waited in, in the school hall.
DK: Right. And this is the school in Fulham.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: This is the school in Fulham. We waited in the church hall and the kids had got all their bags and things.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I had a rucksack. I thought I was the bee’s knees. We didn’t take much with us obviously.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And we waited there. I was a girl you see. I was the young teacher. Miss Bolton was fifty seven. We thought she was —
DK: Ancient.
NT: You know [laughs] One foot in the grave. And she was a funny little lady but she was kind. And she said, ‘My dear,’ she said, ‘I want you to go up to town.’
Other: There you go. Thank you very much.
NT: Thanks very much, Keith.
[recording paused]
DK: So, just, just going back there then.
Other: The order’s come, sorry, the order, I’ll make a —
NT: It’s alright.
DK: So, you’ve had to evacuate then. Were the parents there when their children were going?
NT: The parents didn’t come to the station. We went from, we went from school in Fulham Palace Road.
DK: Yeah.
NT: In buses. I think we went to Sudbury. And the parents weren’t with them then.
DK: Right.
NT: We’d just got children. I don’t remember the parents at all, and we got to Sudbury. I haven’t told you the story.
DK: Yeah. Go on.
NT: And that’s the best bit though.
DK: Do you want to tell it now then?
NT: I do.
MA: Tell it mum.
DK: Yeah. Fire away.
NT: About Mrs Bolton. We were waiting in the hall with all our gear and ready to go and Miss Bolton said, ‘My dear, I want you to nip down to Hammersmith.’ She said, ‘They won’t be here for us for a long time. You nip down to Hammersmith. Make haste and get me twenty pounds out of the bank.’
DK: Right.
NT: ‘We don’t want to get stuck in some God forsaken place with no money.’ So, so I had to go to Hammersmith on the bus. I was the girl, the runner and get this twenty pounds. I hope nobody, I hope I manage to get back with this money alright. Anyway —
DK: Quite a lot of money back in those days.
NT: I got back with the twenty pounds in time and Miss Bolton went in to her staffroom and stitched the money into her stays [laughs] You don’t believe me, do you?
MA: He does actually.
NT: Absolutely —
DK: No one was going to steal it from there, are they?
NT: See, twenty pounds was a lot more than I got for a month’s wages.
DK: Really. Really. So —
NT: So anyway, that was it. So off we went on the bus to Sudbury and we got on the train and they’d all, they were quite happy the children were and the guard was walking up and down and I said, ‘Where are we going, please?’ He said, ‘I can’t tell you my dear.’ He said, ‘I can’t tell you’ He said, ‘But I think it might be somewhere in Northamptonshire.’ And I thought oooh, we might be going to Deeping. Anyway —
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was Brackley.
DK: Right. So even when you were on the train then it was all secret and you didn’t even know where you were going.
NT: Yeah. It was just, it wasn’t funny but —
DK: No.
NT: It was just as if we were going on a trip. What else could you do?
DK: And so, you had the headmistress there.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And yourself. Was there any other teachers?
NT: Yeah. We had a lot. Quite a lot.
DK: Right.
NT: Ever such a lot. But when we got to Brackley there was a row of little buses and we all had to change. Different buses. And Miss Bolton wasn’t in our, our lot. My friend and I, we got in the, we were in the last bus and we got to a place called Twyford. But no, they were quite good.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The children were quite good.
DK: And what accommodation did the children get?
NT: Well, farms and we got a council house where a lady, a new council house and the lady was very houseproud. She wouldn’t have any children so we had to go there but some of the people didn’t want the children very much.
DK: No.
NT: But —
MA: But they didn’t have a choice. They had to.
NT: Oh, they had them. Yeah. We went to the village hall and they got some lemonade.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And bits of food there for the children and there were ladies there choosing which one they wanted.
DK: So, what about the children themselves? How were they reacting to this? Did they —
NT: I don’t remember.
DK: Did they see it as a big adventure?
NT: Yeah. They just take, they just —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Have to don’t they? They just took it in.
DK: And, and for some of the older children were any of them being chosen because they might be able to work on the farms?
NT: Oh, no. No. No.
MA: They weren’t.
DK: None of that.
NT: No. They weren’t old enough for that.
DK: Right. Yeah.
NT: No.
DK: So —
NT: We liked it. Then we had quite but first of all nothing happened at all and we got all these children shoved in to the village school. We had to take it in turns. The village children had the morning and we’d have the afternoons for teaching because there wasn’t enough room. Then gradually the mothers came from London and fetched the children home because nothing was happening. So, we were left with the twenty or twenty four something like that and we more or less integrated with the children then.
DK: Yeah. And where were you actually staying then?
NT: I stayed with the lady in this, in this council house.
DK: Right.
NT: But I didn’t like her very much and after a while I moved with a teacher. One of the teachers.
DK: Right.
NT: That was alright. That was better.
DK: So, the school moved but where were the lessons taking place?
NT: In the village school.
DK: In the village school there. So those that had come from London were then mixing with the local children presumably.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And, and how long were you evacuated for?
NT: Well, I went home after about a year and a half I suppose. Mum wasn’t very good and I’d had enough anyway so I wasn’t too sorry to go.
DK: So, and all the children were evacuated for that period as well.
NT: Well, most of them. Most of them but quite a lot had gone home but there were some still there.
DK: Right. So, you were out of London so when the Blitz had started you missed all that.
NT: Yeah. Actually, actually the Blitz was going on while we were there. We could see the light of London from sort of Aylesbury time. We were near Aylesbury in Buckingham. You could see the glow in the sky from London burning.
DK: Really?
NT: Yeah.
DK: And did you have any other memories of that period?
NT: No. We didn’t have any bombs or any raids. It was too, too isolated.
DK: Yeah. So, you’ve gone home after a year and a half.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And but what was the reason for that then? What was the reason for you going back?
NT: Just that my mother wasn’t very good and they just needed me. And I tell you I’d had enough really. It was very isolated.
DK: Yeah. And, and so what did you do after that? Were you teaching somewhere else?
NT: Yeah. I went to Spalding.
DK: Right.
NT: From [unclear] maybe?
DK: So, you moved back.
NT: A little while and then I got a bit of country living then. We got butter and eggs and things. Mind you we’d been alright for food in, in Twyford. I’d been no problem.
DK: So, and can you remember much about sort of the rationing and the, the lack of food?
NT: Rationing didn’t hit me until I went back to teaching in Hayes in Middlesex in 1943.
DK: Right.
NT: And then it did.
DK: And, and what was the ration then? What were, what were you entitled to?
NT: My friend and I, my cousin and I lived together and we used to have a little pot. We put a pound each in the pot for housekeeping. Our rations like butter and sugar and the things that were rationed came to three and eleven pence. So, by the end of three weeks when Mitch had got a day off from the telephone exchange we used to take ourselves to London.
DK: Right.
NT: And we had a real treat out of the change out of the pot.
DK: So, all the rations —
NT: Yeah. My, my yeah you had, you had to queue for everything.
DK: Yeah. And you could only get that with the ration card presumably.
NT: Yeah. Ration card.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
NT: Ration books. Yeah.
DK: And, and did you kind of feel hungry at the time, was it?
NT: No. We weren’t hungry. We’d always got enough of something. I can’t remember. I can’t remember where we got bread. It’s just gone out of my head.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But I can remember these rations and my, we used to give my auntie who lived nearby we used to give her the meat ration so it helped her with the family and we used to go —
DK: Right.
NT: And have Saturday and Sunday dinner with her.
DK: Right.
NT: She was a wizard at making Yorkshire pudding with dried egg, and making dinners out of nothing really.
MA: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But she had to queue for everything.
DK: Yeah. And, and you said come 1943 you’ve moved to Hayes.
NT: Yeah.
DK: In West London.
NT: Yeah. We went. I lived in West Drayton.
DK: I know, I know West Drayton well.
NT: Yeah.
DK: It’s, well, I was born and brought up in Hounslow and Southall.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So that’s my area.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So, what school did you go to in Hayes then?
NT: I went to Pinkwell School in Hayes. Do you know Pinkwell?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Do you?
MA: She hasn’t found many people who know.
DK: I know where it is.
NT: It was a big, it would have been an open-air school and there was classrooms in a sort of big quadrangle with a veranda inside.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Every room opened on the veranda. You couldn’t, you know, you had to go on to the veranda if you wanted to go anywhere. So, if you wanted to go to the dining room or anywhere you had to go out of the veranda and go to the loo down the yard, you know. Down the veranda. It was all, and then we had to fire watch there. That was the fun. Fire watching.
DK: Right.
NT: So, there were three of us. There were fifteen of us on the staff there. They were all, we were all fairly young. There were two older ladies and all the rest were in our twenties and we had two men. The boss and Mr Miller. He was the, a bit elderly, about forty I suppose he was and they, they ran the school. Boss was exactly like Arthur Lowe. Just exactly like and he behaved like him too. He was pompous.
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Hayes.
NT: Yeah.
DK: In West London then. Did you see much destruction there of —?
NT: Not too much. Not too much.
DK: Bomb damage.
NT: But of course, we had, we had to go into shelters for the Doodlebugs.
DK: Do you remember seeing those? The Doodlebugs or —
NT: We heard them though.
DK: Right.
NT: And the noise. [laughs] and I, because I was a bit excitable Mitch used to say, ‘Don’t you talk. Don’t you say anything.’ We used to hold each other’s hands and she used to say, ‘Don’t say anything because I’m just as frightened as you and it’s no good you saying, “Oh Mitch. Oh Mitch.
MA: What did they sound like then?
NT: [humming]
MA: Oh right.
NT: [humming]
MA: Yeah. Spooky.
NT: It was alright when they were doing that but when they stopped you had to worry if it was going to fall on you because it could have done.
MA: Yeah.
NT: Then you heard this [noise] the earth shaking. Oh dear, I’m saying all this rubbish.
MA: Rubbish [laughs]
DK: So, how long were you at Hayes for then?
NT: I stayed there until 1946.
DK: Right. ‘Til after the war has ended then. So, is there any other memories you have of being in the London area at that time? Do you remember the servicemen who were about?
NT: Well, there was, everywhere you went there were uniforms. Everybody seemed to be in uniform. You know you went on the Tube to work, and all, everybody was in uniform. It was, it was a strange time but we were quite happy. We helped each other and went to school on a bike and slept on the floor in the staff room, and you know and made a little breakfast before the children. It was funny. Really funny.
DK: Do you remember meeting any Americans?
NT: We kept away from the Americans.
DK: Ok. Fair enough.
NT: My cousin Mitch was on the telephone exchange and she used to come home with lurid tales of what the Americans said to the girls on the phone.
DK: Oh dear. So, do you remember much about the, do you remember much about the war when it came to an end?
NT: Oh, do I? That was my day of days. We went to London for the victory.
DK: Right.
NT: I’ve never had such a lovely day. Oh, we were so happy. It was wonderful.
DK: So whereabouts in London did you go?
NT: We went to parks, and went to Buckingham Palace. We went everywhere.
DK: So, you were in the Mall then, were you?
NT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: We just went dancing all around, and changing hats with the sailors and all that. It was fantastic. I’ve never known such a day. It was just like a cork coming out of a bottle. Everybody was so happy, you know. You couldn’t believe it.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The blackout was terrible. I think that was one of the worst things of the war. Everything was black. When, when you went on a train you know, everywhere was dull, and just a glimmer of light and perhaps there was a soldier there with a blooming rucksack and you had to get over them to get to the train. It was awful.
DK: Yeah.
NT: When we used to, if I came home used to get to Peterborough. Perhaps the train would get nearly to Peterborough. You thought oh good. And then it would stop for goodness knows why. And then eventually you got there. Got the last bus home, and they were only small buses and a little man, the bus inspector used to say, ‘Move down the bus. Move down the bus,’ and it was already packed with people. ‘Sit on anybody’s knee. Sit on anybody’s knee.’ And we did. Any fella was sitting on a man’s knee. Nobody seemed to be nasty, you know. There was —
DK: No.
NT: It was lovely. It was a lovely spirit about in the wartime.
DK: Is that something you think is missing a bit now then? Wartime spirit.
NT: No. No. You just go on, but it was nice in a way.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Yeah. We, we made, my cousin and I used to go to London. We used to look around the shops and find, we’d probably find that it looked a bit like sheeting with a hem each end, and we used to buy that and make tennis dresses out of it. We were sewing and knitting all the time you know to make do and mend.
DK: Yeah. So, on VE Day did you see the royal family?
NT: Didn’t hear.
DK: When you were outside Buckingham Palace did you see the royal family?
NT: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And we saw, we went, when we were in Whitehall and heard Mr Churchill’s speech.
DK: Oh right. So, you were there for that.
NT: We were, and my cousin said, ‘Keep hold of my hand,’ She said, ‘Because we should get lost.’ And I’ve never been in such a crowd in all my life.
DK: Right.
NT: When we moved off you could feel people pressing on you. You know. You couldn’t get your breath properly and we got right down to Westminster Bridge before we felt —
DK: Yeah.
NT: You know, it was such a crowd you can’t believe it.
DK: I’ve seen the photos of that. That was at the top of Whitehall, wasn’t it and Churchill is on the balcony.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Of one of the Ministries.
NT: Yeah. It was. It was War Office or somewhere. It was.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was absolutely incredible. It was such a relief. You can’t believe it was such a relief.
DK: So, I look at one of those photos I might see you down there somewhere.
NT: You’ll see me there. You’ll see me there. Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
NT: Yeah. I’ll tell you. I’ve told these kids about these wonderful days of days.
MA: Oh yeah.
DK: So, did —
MA: I should think so.
DK: Do you remember what Churchill actually said in his speech or —
NT: No. I only heard it on —
MA: Too many glasses of wine.
NT: Yeah. Yeah. No. It was, it was great relief when it was over because we really we couldn’t believe it was ever going to be over. You know. You couldn’t.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And my husband in the desert he said they just didn’t think war would ever be over.
DK: So, when, I should have asked about this. When did you actually meet your husband then? Was it —
NT: Oh, I knew him before he went. I met him in Deeping.
DK: Oh. So, you knew him from here before the war.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So where did he serve then?
NT: Where did —
DK: Where did he serve?
NT: In the desert. In the Eighth Army.
DK: Right. So, he was gone for years then.
NT: Yeah. We didn’t get married until ’45.
DK: Right.
MA: Tell the story about him coming back when he was coming. What happened when he was coming back?
NT: What about?
MA: When daddy got all the presents. What happened to him? When dad was coming back.
NT: Oh, when he came back and he went from, from North Africa, no Italy he’d been in Italy.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And when he came back, he was on tank transport. He was driving tank transporters from Birmingham to Leith Docks.
DK: Right.
NT: When he got to Stamford and there were no bypass in those days they’d got to get the tank transports through these little towns. The shopkeepers used to come out, ‘Ahhh.’
DK: Oh dear.
NT: They didn’t think they could possibly manage it. It was such a job.
MA: I meant when he was coming back from the war.
NT: Yeah.
MA: And he’d got all the presents for the family.
NT: Oh.
MA: What happened to him when he —
NT: Well, he got, he got shipwrecked in North Africa.
MA: Yeah. That.
DK: Oh right.
NT: Yeah. He got shipwrecked. Well, the ship that he was travelling on got, and he said they got all scraped up their legs getting rescued off this ship. He described it later climbing up the ship, and all his presents that he’d bought to bring all got sank of course.
DK: Oh dear.
NT: And, and the spurs that he got for his dad because his father was a jockey. Had been a jockey.
DK: Oh right.
NT: And he’d got these spurs off a German general or something.
DK: Really.
NT: He said, ‘You don’t need them,’ you know.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Like the squaddies used to, and he got these from this German prisoner, and he was so proud he was going to bring these home to his dad.
DK: And they were lost at sea as well.
NT: Oh yeah.
DK: Oh dear. So, what, what did he do in the Eight Army? Was he driving?
NT: Driver.
DK: He was a driver. Basically, the tank transporters.
NT: Well, he didn’t he didn’t have trans in those days, he just drove lorries.
DK: Right.
NT: Lorries in the desert. Went up and down with Wavell and you know.
DK: Yeah. And then went on to Sicily and Italy presumably.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: [unclear] senorita.
DK: So, when did the shipwreck happen then? Was he on his way back or —
NT: I think that was Tobruk where it went, where the ship went down.
DK: Oh, so he was at Tobruk.
NT: Yeah. Oh yeah, of course he was in Tobruk.
DK: Right.
NT: That’s the bag up there.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Which date was that mum? Was it right at the end of the war?
NT: 1941 to —
No. No.
NT: Yeah.
MA: It was the first break he’d got for some time. He’d been working his socks off, hadn’t he? That was his first break and then that happened. Yes, he was exhausted.
NT: They’d had, they’d had a rough time in the desert really.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Anyway —
DK: Did he, did he talk about it much?
NT: No. He used to tell us the funny things.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The one nasty thing he told, he told us really had haunted him was he’d had to transport lorry loads of dead Poles.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And they were covered up but they knew who they were because they’d got brown boots on.
DK: Right.
NT: It used to haunt him.
DK: It’s a difficult job that one, isn’t it?
NT: Yeah. Anyway —
DK: So, when he came back then what, what was his career after that?
NT: Oh, he went, he went working on the land for a bit.
DK: Right.
NT: With a threshing set. And then he went to the engineering works at Peterborough.
DK: Yeah. And, and what did you do after the war? Did you remain in teaching?
NT: I kept teaching.
DK: Right, so —
NT: Well, I minded the kids first and then my —
DK: So, when did you retire from teaching then?
NT: 1979, was it? Yeah. I think.
DK: Yeah. Right. Ok.
MA: You say you’ve been retired more than you actually taught now.
NT: Lovely. And I get far more money in pension than ever I earned.
DK: That was the year I left school actually. So, so what did you retire as? Did you, did you make it to headmistress or were you just a teacher?
NT: No. I was deputy head.
DK: Deputy head. Oh right.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And what school was that at then?
NT: Deeping St Nicholas. Very little school just up the road.
DK: Right.
NT: On the way to Spalding.
DK: So, your career then.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Came back here.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve been here.
NT: I’ve always lived here.
DK: You’ve been here ever since.
NT: We like it here, don’t we?
MA: It’s a lovely place. Yeah.
DK: Just one final question then. I think we’ve got most of that then. All these years later how do you look back on the wartime years?
NT: Well, I look back on it with a bit of affection in a way. There was, it was a hard time but it drew people together, you know, and it was a very hard time but I was very lucky because I didn’t have any hard things to deal with.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I do. I quite look back on quite affectionate, but it was sad in a, very sad.
MA: The uncle who died didn’t his parents die soon afterwards because it was —
NT: Afterwards. Yeah.
DK: That was the uncle who died in the First World War.
NT: Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
ME: Yeah.
NT: I didn’t know him.
DK: Right.
NT: What else can I tell?
DK: What about children today? Would you like to still be teaching them today?
NT: No. I would not.
DK: No. Fair enough.
NT: Don’t start me on that. Don’t start me on that.
DK: We’ll skip over that.
NT: Oh dear. We were just saying weren’t we? We were just saying when children were the bottom of the heap when I was young. Now they’re like princesses and lords aren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Pampered. Not good.
DK: Not good, is it?
MA: We did as we were told.
DK: Yes. Yes. So, did we.
NT: Well, you had a good childhood.
MA: Oh yes.
NT: You weren’t treated —
MA: But we did as we were told.
NT: Yeah. Well, you —
DK: Ok then. Well, I think we’ll finished there unless there’s anything else you want to say. Or is there anything else you wanted to say? Or are you happy with that?
NT: No. I don’t think so.
DK: No.
NT: No. It was nice of you to come.
DK: Oh, no. Enjoyed it. Well, I’ll switch this off then. Thanks very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Nancy Titman
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-10-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATitmanEA181005, PTitmanEA1801
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Pending review
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00:34:11 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
Description
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Nancy Titman was born in 1918, and grew up in Deeping Saint James, Lincolnshire. At the age of eleven she won a scholarship to Stamford High School and did her teacher training in Peterborough. In 1938 she attended an interview in Cambridge, had a medical in London and her first job was teaching infants in Fulham. At the start of war, she was evacuated away from London with the children, with whom she continued to teach, and remembers seeing the glow of fires from London burning during the Blitz. She returned to Spalding and continued teaching, and in 1943 moved to Hayes. After the allied victory she remembers celebrating the war’s end in London and hearing Churchill’s speech. She married in 1945.
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1943
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
bombing
evacuation
home front
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/749/10748/ACookJ150709.2.mp3
e546cf9f2a3e4cbc2c2ae8d537348675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cook, Jack
J Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Cook (- 2023, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 100 and 104 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cook, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: David Kavannagh interviewing Jack Cook for the International Bomber Command Centre 9th of July 2015. They’ll edit this at some point so don’t worry about a thing. So, if I could just ask you your background. Where you came from from before the war? What you were doing?
JC: I was born, I was born a few miles from Doncaster. A small market town called Mexborough. Actually, it’s between Rotherham and Doncaster. And at eighteen years of age, which was August the 20th 1943 I volunteered for aircrew. All aircrew were volunteers. A lot of people don’t realise that.
DK: So just before that. Had you come straight from school?
JC: No.
DK: Oh.
JC: No. I left school at fourteen and I worked in a [pause] what can I call it? Well, actually they were pawnbrokers but they were outfitters. Gent’s outfitters. They sold everything kind of thing. Until I was sixteen I worked there and then I went on the footplate which was the old LNER. I worked, I worked there. I worked there until I was eighteen and then I joined the RAF. I went to the attestation board at Doncaster and I wanted to become a rear gunner. But after the interview there was a squadron leader said to me, ‘Would you like to become a wireless operator/air gunner instead of just the air gunner.’ I said, ‘Well I don’t know the Morse code and I know nothing about wireless or anything like that.’ ‘Well,’ he says, ‘You’ve came out very well out in the attestation board.’ He said, ‘Would you like to?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll have a go.’ So that’s it. That’s how I became training for a wireless op. And anyhow the course was a lot longer, the gunner’s course because I only arrived at the squadron a fortnight before the, or three weeks before the war finished. So actually I didn’t take part in any actively dropping bombs at all. I should imagine I was one of the youngest at that time of the war because I was only nineteen when we did a drop the food to the Dutch in Operation Manna.
DK: So you were nineteen in 1945.
JC: Yeah. I was. I was twenty in ‘45. But I was only nineteen actually when the drop took place in the April. And in [pause] we were on standby for the last raid of the war. Berchtesgaden, which was Hitler’s hide out up in the mountains. We used to call it his retreat. But we weren’t required because I expect we were just on standby if somebody fell sick you know and they put another crew in. Which they did.
DK: So which squadron was this?
JC: This was 100 Squadron at Elsham Wolds, Lincolnshire. And, and then in February 1946 we took the Lancaster. Oh just prior to that we were all in the briefing room and a squadron leader stood up and said, ‘There are quite a number of crews that are here today. Well,’ he says, ‘Three. We want three. Three crews. And it’s for being out in the Middle East. Taking the Lancs out to a place called Abu Sueir, not far from Cairo.’ And he said, ‘You’ll be there until your date of mobilisation is finished.’ So one lad, he said, ’ And what happens if we refuse to go?’ So he said, ‘Well, you’ll be up for mutiny.’ And Jack’s hand went up, I said, ‘When do we go sir?’ [laughs] Anyhow, we took the Lancs out there to Abu Sueir and it was a peacetime airfield that. And we were only there for a few weeks when we had to move down to Shallufa, in the Canal Zone. Right at the bottom near Suez. And that would be about the March of ’46 and I was there until ’47. The squadron, oh this would have been when this was when on 104 Squadron was formed out there. 104 Squadron. And we disbanded and I, the wireless ops at that stage, there was only one group every three months going, get back to England. Which, I was out there quite a while. We lost all the gunners. They didn’t want those. They didn’t want the bomb aimers. They went. And I finished up on Ansons. VIP run. And, and what’s the other thing. VIPs runs and mail runs. All over the Middle East we went in the, in the Ansons. And then my time for demob came up and I knew they’d made a mistake with my group. I knew I was 57 group and they’d got it down as 56. We were already packed up to go to the old transit camp waiting for a boat home. And we had prisoners of war in the mess. Damned good they were as well. Mind you they, they were very helpful. They couldn’t do, you know they were prisoners of war but they were damned good. And one of them came because our billets weren’t far from the, from the sergeant’s mess. Well, they spoke good English the three of them that were there. We weren’t a flight in the mess. A telephone. A telephone? I’ll bet they’ve found out the mistake they’d made. Anyhow, I went there and it was a squadron leader, somewhere from group there. He said, ‘I understand that your waiting to go.’ I expect the sergeant in charge of the mess had told him that I was waiting because he was a big friend, a big pal of mine. And he said, ‘I’m awfully sorry,’ he says, ‘But there’s been a mistake been made with your release group number.’ ‘Never,’ I said [laughs] so he said, ‘Yeah, but,’ he said, ‘I’ll promise you this though. Instead of when your time comes up in about three months’ time that you won’t be going with transport. You’ll be flying home.’ I thought ‘Yeah. I know.’ But he kept to his word and I was packed up again waiting for the garrie to take me to the transit where we had to wait until we got a boat. One of the Jerries came across and said, ‘You’re wanted on the phone. It’s someone from Group the sergeant says.’ So, anyhow I went there and yeah, ‘Well,’ he said ‘I’ve kept my promise,’ he said, ‘And there’s an aircraft coming. A Lancaster coming down from Palestine tomorrow.’ He said, ‘Are you ok for going on it?’ Well, I thought, well I thought to myself I’ve never been on a ship kind of that because we flew out there and he said, ‘I can’t wait much longer. The flight. I’m very very busy.’ I said, ‘Yeah’ I said, ‘Ok. I’ll take it.’ ‘Oh by the way,’ he says, ‘You’ll have to work your own way home.’ He says, ‘The wireless operator will be getting out and you’ll be getting in.’ And I was demobbed in forty eight hours. Amazing.
DK: So where did you come back in the UK?
JC: I came back to — where we landed the aircraft?
DK: Yeah. Where did you land?
JC: Silloth. Carlisle.
DK: Right. Ok.
JC: That was there, I don’t know whether it’s still going or not. And then I was dropped down there. Then I got a pass to Kirkham, Blackpool way, where I was demobbed. And then I was back. And when I — I forget how much leave I had to come but I went back on the footplate until 1961. And my wife had been in hospital. She’d had, for seven years she’d had mastoid operations all over the place and she went convalescing to Bridlington. And she was, she was a sister at Mexborough Hospital then. Where we lived of course. And she went there for a fortnight and towards the end of the fortnight the matron got on the phone. The matron at the convalescent home phoned me up and said, ‘I know all about your Jack.’ She said, ‘Connie’s been very, very helpful here. Although she’s convalescing she’s been doing a lot of help,’ she said, and my sister — that’s her sister, the matron’s sister, who was the assistant matron was leaving there to get married. And she said, ‘Would you come and take her place, Connie.’ So, Connie said, ‘Well, what about Jack?’ And she said, ‘Oh I’ll get him a job here,’ she said. Which eventually she did and I was manager of a fancy goods shop. A large one. One, two, three, four — about nine large windows. And I had a staff of eleven or twelve girls during the busy — only for about three or four months but I used to keep two of them on, the best two, all the years that I were there. And, you know they kept the shop clean and it was [pause] And then one day I was talking to the wife and we had two kiddies at this time then. In 1961 one would be, one would be still a baby in the pram. The other was four year old because there was four years difference. And I went for an interview at Sheffield because the shop was called Spalls and they had various. There’s one in Leicester. A Spalls in Leicester. The same family. There was this chap at Sheffield — he was in charge of the five northern branches. And I got the job and went to, and that’s how we came to Brid. Now this would be 19 no we hadn’t any kids then. No children then. ’51 we were married. I lost my wife seventeen years ago by the way, she was seventy three. ’61. ’51 I was married. ’51. So it would be fifty, fifty [pause]now you see how when you get old how you —
DK: I have trouble with dates [laughs] yeah. Late 50s.
JC: Yeah but it would be probably ’57.
DK: Right.
JC: Probably ’57 when we went to Brid. That would be it. No. No. No. I’m wrong on dates because my eldest lad was born in ’57 and the youngest one was born in ’61. He only lives at Bourne.
DK: Oh right.
JC: I think he knows — Is it Sue? She works at —
DK: Yes. Yes.
JC: I think she lives at Bourne.
DK: Yes she does. Yeah.
JC: And he’s the manager of the large estate there.
DK: Oh right.
JC: He’s three or four staff. That’s all, it’s not. And it’s a very, very good job. They started him at thirty thousand a couple of years back. He worked for Vodaphone.
DK: Yeah.
JC: For a few years. Because he did twenty five years in the RAF. And his wife, his wife — let’s see. She works at [pause] well it used to be RAF Cottesmore.
DK: Right. Yes.
JC: Where Maurice used to be as an engineer.
DK: Yeah. It’s the army, it’s the army barracks now isn’t it?
JC: It’s army barracks now. That’s it. Well she’s in the medical department there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Now then where have we got to now?
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
JC: Yeah.
DK: If I could just take you back to the Manna drops. How many Manna food drops did you actually do?
JC: I did two.
DK: Two.
JC: Yeah. At the racecourse. Both at the racecourse.
DK: Right.
JC: But Bill Birch mentioned it, that it was The Hague but I’m sure it was this, this racecourse where we dropped was at Rotterdam. But there again I might be wrong again. Or Bill could be wrong.
DK: Do you remember much about the reaction of the people on the ground?
JC: Oh yeah. Well it’s hard to be — you see we were flying at four or five hundred feet and they were stood on buildings and waving flags. Anything that they was picking up they were waving. And as I mentioned there we were that low I saw a couple of Jerries, of course, they’d be short of food as well. And they’d got their helmets off and were waving them on top, on the top of the buildings them as plain as — I can see them now. Yeah. And what else can I say about — well very little. Although we were very, we were low down and as I mentioned just a while ago that everywhere you could see water. Because with Montgomery coming up from the south the Germans blew the dykes up and flooded the whole area. So as soon as we were over the course kind of thing that was it. There was water behind us that we flew over and water in front of us. And then of course we did the drop.
DK: And perhaps if I could take you back just a stage further. After your training as a wireless operator did you go straight into the squadron or was there any —?
JC: No. What happened —?
DK: Was there a Conversion Unit you went to?
JC: No. What happened, what happens was you meet you meet your crew. You’re all in the mess and there were pilots and navigators. The whole lot you know. The crew members. Crews. And then you’re picked. You’re talking to one another. And my skipper he was a W/O to start with and they all got commissioned there later on as P/O’s. And I think he’d got the bomb aimer who did his training in Canada. He married a girl in Canada and they moved. They’re in America now. I hear from his quite regular. But I lost my mid-upper gunner two years ago. And they called him Chaplin. Warrant Officer Chaplin. His name was Dickie but we, Dickie Chaplin but of course he got Charlie. Charlie Chaplin you see. And he said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘I want,’ you know, talking, he said, ‘Right I’m looking for a wireless op. Anybody interested?’ ‘Yeah. ‘Yeah.’ I put my hand up. ‘Come on, let’s have a look at you.’ You know, that’s how we got a crew in five or ten minutes.
DK: Do you think, do you think that worked well because you basically made up your own crews? You weren’t ordered in to a crew. You just —
JC: Oh no. They didn’t force you in. That’s how you, that’s how you met your family.
DK: And do you think that way worked well?
JC: Oh yeah. I should imagine there couldn’t have been a better way actually.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual in, sort of the armed forces to be able to do something like that by yourself [unclear]
JC: Yeah. It was far better than.
DK: Being ordered.
JC: You were in this group. You were going to. Yeah. Yeah. Far better. And you mixed together straightaway. And the comradeship. It’s hard to believe.
DK: So how —
JC: And actually had I, had I been a rear gunner or mid-upper gunner I’d have been on the squadron six or eight months before but it was such a long course at — well I did at Market Harborough. I did OTU at Market Harborough which is only about twenty five miles from here.
DK: So you were you at the OTU before joining the crew or —
JC: No. That’s where we, that’s where we met the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. So that was where, which OTU?
JC: I think it was 14. I think I’ve got, I’ve got, I’ll just get my, I’ll just get my logbook down. Thank you.
DK: Ok.
JC: And then I’ve got dates in where I — can you manage? Can you manage?
DK: That’s ok.
[pause]
JC: The only thing wrong with this place. There isn’t enough room David.
[pause]
JC: I think it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: It’s like going into Fort Knox is this [laughs]
[pause]
JC: Oh it works. I haven’t forgotten the number. It’s ages since I —
[pause]
DK: Are you ok now?
JC: Yeah. Thank you. These are the aircraft I flew in.
DK: Are they?
JC: Domini, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Lancaster, Dakota as a passenger, Liberator as a passenger and a Boa Carlton as a passenger.
DK: Yeah.
JC: When we went out to India and did a few, three weeks in India. Right. Number 1 Radio School February ’44. What happened before that? Oh I was at ITW. Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
JC: Then Radio School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. Number 6 Advanced Flying Unit. Staverton, Gloucester. There’s the dates. 14 OTU Market Harborough October ’44 to February ’45. Then to 1156 Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, Doncaster. Then to 100 Squadron. You see March ’45 so the war was nearly over wasn’t it? So I was, I was still only nineteen then. I wasn’t twenty until the August. Then 16 Ferry Unit Dunkeswell in Devon where we flew the Lancs out to the, out to the Middle East. Then 104 Squadron there. At Abu Sueir. Middle East Forces. April until July’46 squadron moved to Shallufa. That’s at the Canal Zone. Squadron disbanded 31st of March ’47. Then MENME ferry unit and MENME Comm Squadron and then demobbed in September ’47. Now, this logbook isn’t the original one. When we were at Dunkeswell to fly out to the Middle East once a month all the flying logbooks had to be signed by the CO. Wherever you were. And there were all in the flight office kind of thing and there was a fire. And the only thing [pause] of all the things were burned down although the actual number of hours were in and that’s what we had to do there. Now that [pause] number 16TH RAF Ferry Unit, RAF Dunkeswell. Number one logbook destroyed by fire January ’46. And we got that we had to put the number of flying hours in and then he’s checked it and signed it.
DK: And that’s taken from the burnt one.
JC: That was taken from the burnt one.
DK: That’s —
JC: And it was all checked. It was checked by the squadron leader.
DK: That a real shame it was burnt and lost.
JC: It is.
DK: That’s a shame.
JC: It is. Yeah.
DK: So, that only shows from ’46 onwards.
JC: This actually shows from, this shows from 11th of December ’45. Collection at Silloth. That’s Carlisle and —
DK: In a Lancaster.
JC: That was Lancs yeah.
DK: All Lancasters.
JC: Yeah. That was it. Lancasters. And each one, the logbook is signed by the squadron leader or somebody for the — yes it was a flying officer then. Charlie, Charlie Chaplin. And you know there’s all trips. Bombing. Greece, Italy. We had some good runs. [unclear] Pomigliano, that’s Naples. Bari’s on the east coast, way up in Italy. Back to Cairo, away from base. Bombing. Gunnery. Lydda, that’s Palestine. And there’s all kinds of trips, [unclear] Greece. Pomigliano and Cairo. Lydda transport flying. Flying a lot of troop in we did.
DK: Mostly with the Lancaster Mark 7s isn’t it?
JC: That’s a 7. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a book and every Lancaster that was made, manufactured kind of thing and the number of it. I’ve got it. What happened to it?
DK: No idea. Mostly scrapped I would imagine.
JC: Most of them were yeah.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Kasfareet, Campo Formio, Italy again. Almarza. Bombing. Shallufa base. Lydda. Squadron moved from Abu Sueir as I said, down to the Canal Zone.
DK: Quite a few flights.
JC: Yeah. Where are we now? Abu Suier. Nicosia, Cyprus trooping twenty passengers. We’ve got Rome again, Ciampino. Some are quite a number of hours in August. You see a lot of , a lot of people, well all the aircrew when the war was over, the senior NCOs, I don’t know about the officers but they became LACs again. We were only given stripes for if we were shot down and you were treated as senior NCOs prisoners of war. Palestine, Almarza, Lyneham, Luqa, Malta. [unclear] Southern France. Diverted. Twelve passengers. Toulouse. That’s down near Marseille.
DK: Yeah.
JC: Ferry St Mawgan. Abingdon. Transport Luqa, Cairo, Fayid, Palestine. Khartoum. Almarza, Ciampino, Rome. Air sea rescue search — nine hours forty five minutes. That’s the longest.
DK: Do you remember much about that incident?
JC: Oh I do. Yeah.
DK: Was that —
JC: What you’ve got to —
DK: Is it the 21st of November 1946.
JC: What we had to do was do a box search instructions to the pilots like that but we did that and we were unsuccessful. So what he did then — he did [pause] and when we landed he got a real rollicking off the CO. Ten minutes fuel we’d left. He said, ‘Think about your crew.’ Anyhow we got, he apologised did Charlie.
DK: So you never found who was —
JC: No. We never found, never found them. No.
DK: And was, and can you remember was that you were looking for crew from a ship or from another aircraft.
JC: It was an aircraft. It was a York aircraft that came from — it was flying, now then, I don’t know where it had come from and where it was going. That’s beyond me now I just can’t get it. Aden, Khartoum, Eritrea, [unclear] Aden again, Almarza, Rhodes Island, Rhodes. Kalata was the airfield. Nicosia. From Nicosia to Kalata. The, the [pause] now what was he? He was security police. British. Well, a Scotsman actually and he lived in this castle and he invited us. I don’t know how long we were there. Landed the 4th and left on the 7th so we were there for three days. Something like that. And he invited us out, he invited us to his place for dinner. And what an evening. Anyhow, he said when you leave the next day, he said, or this was the following day that we were leaving, he said, ‘Fly down the main street if you will.’ To Charlie he said, ‘And let them know we’ve got an air force.’ And we did. Just over [laughs] just over the house tops. Oh it was amazing.
DK: So that was, that was in Nicosia in Cyprus.
JC: That was, no, that was from, we were in Almarza. We went to Kasfareet.
DK: Which is in Greece.
JC: No. Kasfareeet. That’s in Egypt.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JC: Yes. Kasfareet. Then we went from Nicosia in Cyprus.
DK: So your low fly past was over Egypt.
JC: No. No. It was here at Rhodes. It was Rhodes.
DK: Oh very well. I’m with you.
JC: And then we went from Nicosia to Kalata in Rhodes.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And then we went from Kalata to [unclear] Then then back to Kasfareet.
DK: So your low fly past was over Rhodes.
JC: Over Rhodes.
DK: And this, this one is another date there on the 13th of February ’47 base to Habbabiya in Iraq. Almarza. Kasfareet. Base. Plenty of trips here. Khormaksar, Aden again. Luqa – Palestine. We were in Palestine. We’d not been out in Egypt only a few weeks when Charlie said, ‘Shall we go up to Palestine?’ He says, ‘I’ll get the wing commander flying to see if he’ll put a training trip on, drop us there and then collect us a week later.’ Which he did. And we went up there and that was the ruddy night in Jerusalem that they — I forget now what hotel we were at but that’s when the — was it the Stern Gang?
DK: The Stern Gang, yeah.
JC: Yeah. The Stern. That’s when they attacked. I think they blew the —
DK: The King David Hotel.
JC: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem and murdered a few paratroops that were in tents. Do you remember? Well, you will have read about that.
DK: Yes. I’m know of the incident.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. And he got on the blower the next day, he said, ‘I think you’d better fetch us back,’ and they put a kite on. And then it died down and about six or seven weeks later we went again and we saw all the biblical places. It was marvellous. I mean the places I’ve been. I think before I was, before I was demobbed I think I’d been in to twenty one countries.
DK: Yeah. And you would see these places before the mass tourism.
JC: Oh yeah. Yeah. yeah. It would have cost me thousands to have been. Mind you the only thing is I can remember very little about them. I can remember, I can remember Jerusalem and all the places where, where Jesus stopped with the cross. The twelve stops wherever it was. And the Church of the Nativity where He was supposed to be born.
DK: So what were your duties actually as the wireless operator? Just sort of explain. Sitting there.
JC: Well we used to well the main thing was if you’re going to be aborted somebody’s got to know the plane. That was it.
DK: So the messages were sent to you in Morse code.
JC: Oh yeah. And what other were — and every hour the people back here used to send out, and this was after the war of course ever hour we answered it. I used to get a report from the navigator to say where we were. You know degrees latitude, longitude and all like that. So we were in contact all the time.
DK: So this every hour message you got had to co — be the same as what the navigator said as to your position.
JC: That’s right. Yeah. And I sent it back then you see. Yeah.
DK: Looking back now how do you see your time in the Air Force?
JC: Well if I was in the Air Force again I wouldn’t like to be in this country. I would like to be abroad. That’s for the simple reason that life was easier out there. I mean we never, never did parades out in — unless it was something special. I always remember in this country before we, when we were in training Queen Mary, old Queen Mary, she was visiting the station. And for two or three weeks there was that much bull, you know, on the station. And the morning she came I think we were there a couple of hours before and we were lining all the way up to the officers mess where they were meeting and greeting her. And she went straight past in the car. And there we were. Absolutely soaked we were. We had the old capes on, you know. Oh yeah. Still that’s things like that.
DK: And the bull in the air force you didn’t, you didn’t like. The parades and —
JC: Well, I wouldn’t say I disliked them because they were a necessity because you can’t beat discipline.
DK: No.
JC: I mean our crew — I should imagine we were one of the best crews. Nobody was called Charlie, Dick or Brian or Trevor or Taffy. Not like we did on the ground. It was, ‘Hello skipper. Wireless op here.’ Blah, blah, blah, blah. And rear gunner, you know. A few days after the war we ran what we called Cook’s Tours and we flew the ground staff low over Germany to let them see the damage. And I said to, I went down to the elsan, it was just this forward of the rear gunner, and I said to the rear gunner, I said — I knocked on his and he opened his thing back you see. And I didn’t let anybody hear. I switched the intercom off and I said, ‘Is it going to be ok if I swap seats with you? You come and sit up, you know.’ I said, ‘I’ll ask the skip.’ ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Yeah.’ So when I got back I got on the intercom and mentioned and he said, ‘Yeah that’s alright.’ And just as I sat down in the rear turret we were going over Cologne Cathedral. Everything was devastated. It was just like St Paul’s when they missed that. Everything was devastated and there was the cathedral not touched. Another act of God. I used to think of it like that. Yeah.
DK: How did that make you feel to seeing the devastated cities?
JC: Oh, well [pause] I looked at it this way. A lot wouldn’t be leaving that strategic bombing that Bomber Harris did but he tried to win the war with bombing and it nearly succeeded. But what did him and he never, he was never made a lord or anything like that which the majority of them were was the Dresden do. They said it shouldn’t have been but it was war and they proved it afterwards. After the war was well over that there were troops there. So that you see, I mean, I mean you look at, you look at the Americans when they dropped the two bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That was shocking when you come to think about it but it saved millions of lives after. They’d had enough hadn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JC: They’d had enough when that happened. Yeah.
DK: How many Cook’s Tours did you do over Germany?
JC: I think we went on two days. We only did two trips. Took them over and came back because we weren’t the only squadron that were doing it. There were other squadrons doing it as well. In fact I’ve got some photographs somewhere of the, of the places that the we must have had a photographer, a RAF photographer in our plane because [pause] are you alright for time?
DK: Yeah. I’m fine. Yeah.
JC: I’ll just I’ll just one of my albums. I do believe it’s in here.
[pause]
JC: Ahh here we are. I think it’s in here. Aye it is. Look it’s on the first.
DK: Yes.
JC: That’s the date. That’s it.
DK: So that’s the pilot. Chaplin isn’t it?
JC: 17th of the 7th ’45.
JC: Is that a seven?
DK: I think. It looks like possibly. Yeah.
JC: Yeah. This might interest you. Just to look at. That was one of them.
DK: Yeah.
JC: I think there’s another couple somewhere. Oh there we are. That was Essen. That was Emmerich. And what was this one? Wessel.
DK: Wessel.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. There. Look at the devastation there.
DK: And they’re photos from the Cook’s Tours.
JC: Yeah. Cook’s Tours. That was it. Yeah. They are official photographs there.
DK: Yeah.
JC: And these, this is at one of the 100, my squadrons, one of the reunions.
DK: That was Wyton.
JC: October ’85. That’s the year I retired because I retired at sixty. Haven’t a clue where I am there.
DK: 100 Squadron is still going isn’t it?
JC: Oh yes. It’s at Leeming.
DK: Leeming.
JC: I haven’t been this year. I went last year.
DK: Ok. What’s I’ll do, I’ll just stop the recording. Ok. I’ll say thank you for that.
JC: You’re welcome.
DK: Thank you. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Cook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJ150709
Format
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00:38:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Cook was born in Mexborough. He left school at 14 and went to work at a Gentlemen’s Outfitters. At 16 he worked on the footplate for LNER. At the age of 18 he volunteered for aircrew and trained as a wireless operator/air gunner; joined 100 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds two or three weeks before the end of the war. Consequently, Jack did not take part in bombing but was involved in Operation Manna, doing two drops.
In February 1946 three of the crews took Lancasters to RAF Abu Sueir in Egypt. After a few weeks they moved to RAF Shallufa, in the Canal Zone, when 104 Squadron was formed. Jack finished up on Ansons doing VIP and mail runs. He flew back in a Lancaster to RAF Kirkham via RAF Silloth, where he was demobbed. Jack flown in Domine, Proctor, Anson, Wellington and a Lancaster.
Jack married in 1951 and had two children, went back to the footplate until 1961. After that he worked as a manager of a fancy goods shop and eventually moved to Bridlington.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
England--Cumbria
Egypt
Egypt--Suez Canal
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1946-02
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
104 Squadron
14 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
demobilisation
Dominie
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Abu Sueir
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kirkham
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Shallufa
RAF Silloth
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/PCullingGC1701.2.jpg
9ccfcf6ea9b4b0f1b819b5c4da9c1272
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/ACullingGC170906.1.mp3
8091b130f97917b8d23b950424ce8148
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Culling, George Charles
G C Culling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Culling (Royal Air Force). He trained as a navigator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Culling, GC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Make sure it’s working. Right. Just introduce myself. It’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing George Culling at his home on the 6th of September 2017. So if I just put that down there. What I’ll do is I’ll keep looking over. I’m only just making sure it working.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Just in case the batteries fail or something.
GC: Yeah.
DK: It has happened once.
GC: Yeah.
DK: The batteries stopped. That looks ok. So, what I want to ask you first of all was what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
GC: Before I joined the RAF I was working in a builder’s merchants actually. I left school. Went straight into a builder’s merchants. At the time there was a lot of bombing. I was in Bromley, Kent. I think Biggin Hill Aerodrome was being bombed and my school hardly functioned in that I only went to school Saturday morning. Picked up work. Did it at home and took it back the next Saturday. After that the school was bombed. So really the school was quite interested in really letting the rest of the pupils go as fast as possible so that school could close. So I went in to a builder’s merchants and was in there. And I joined the ATC. Learned about navigation and meteorology and aircraft recognition and so on and waited until my time came which was at the age of about eighteen and a quarter I suppose.
DK: Do, do you think the fact you were under the German bombing influenced you wanting to join the RAF?
GC: Well, I don’t know. One had to do something and I thought this was the most interesting thing for me to do actually. I was always interested once I’d started. I was always interested in navigation. In the, in the ATC it was navigation that I wanted to find out about and although I had a go at a Tiger Moth I had my, I had a few hours of, as I’ve mentioned in my book had a few hours of practice in a Tiger Moth I really wanted to be a navigator so I was quite pleased when I was selected for that. Yeah.
DK: So as you go in then were you, does it work that you’re immediately do pilot training and then you’re sort of weeded out?
GC: Well, what happened was that at that time they weren’t actually recruiting pilots and navigators separately. They had a category called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: And they would be together for about three months. Probably four months. All learning meteorology, navigation, a certain amount about machine guns. Basic stuff but certainly an emphasis on navigation. And after that those who wanted to could have up to ten hours in a Tiger Moth.
DK: Right.
GC: You weren’t forced to do that. Actually, after that was over there was a rather difficult time because we were losing so many air gunners at that time that the authorities thought some of these PNBs should be changed to air gunners.
DK: Right.
GC: That wasn’t a very popular idea. Not because they were afraid of being air gunners but because the pilots, those who wanted to be pilots were very keen to fly. Those who wanted to be navigators wanted to be navigators. But so we all had to be sort of re-tested in a way. I remember I had to do some, some aptitude tests for navigators comparing Ordnance Survey maps with photographs at speed. At speed. You know, had to [laughs] and then we all queued before, I mention this in my book we all queued before a senior officer who would tell us our fate. So a certain amount of tension at that time until people knew what they were going to do. But as you know rear gunners had very, very heavy losses and that was always a problem really to the RAF. Making up those losses.
DK: Was navigation something that came easy to you?
GC: Well, yes I did. I liked it from the start.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I liked it in any form really. I particularly enjoyed it with the stars actually and that’s unusual.
DK: Astro, astro navigation.
GC: Most, most navigators having had radar which made life very much easier you could fix your position quickly with radar. The radar we had was H2S and Gee. Heaven knows what those letters stand for but they did enable you to fix your positions very quickly whereas with the stars it was a longer, quite long business. You needed three separate stars. You had to stand up in a shuddering aircraft and squeeze the trigger. Once you’d got the —
DK: That’s on the sextant is it?
GC: Once you’d got the star —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Captured in the bubble.
DK: Of the sextant.
GC: Yeah. That —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Of the, of the sextant. And that was only the beginning. I mean when you had those three bits of information you’d taken the time to the nearest second of the shot and you had the name of the star. And, and you had the altitude. So with those three pieces of information you could look up the air navigation tables. Usually called Air Almanacs.
DK: Yeah.
GC: These days. And you’d eventually have a line on your Mercator chart somewhere along which you were flying when you took that shot. We had to do that three times so you had three lines which never did intersect.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That would be too much to expect.
DK: You had a little, you had a little triangle where they almost intersected. You took the centre of that triangle as your fix and I mean it was quite a long business but I enjoyed that because it’s just so interesting. The stars are so interesting and I knew, I knew the heaven’s pretty well. I knew my way around.
DK: Is it something you could still do?
GC: Well, I’ve, I’ve probably forgotten quite a lot but there are things that you don’t forget aren’t there?
DK: Yeah.
GC: I know, I know quite a lot.
DK: Presumably astro navigation was quite difficult if the weather’s bad and it’s cloudy and —
GC: Ah yes but you see if you’re flying above twenty thousand feet you haven’t got any clouds composed of of moisture. You’ve only got, well, of moisture yes but they’re ice crystals. Everything is ice crystals.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud that looks like silky wisps that’s always ice crystals. That’s cirrus.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud you got there is negligible unless you got thunder clouds. Cumulonimbus. If you got thunder clouds it’s a different matter altogether but normally the sky is clear. Pretty clear above twenty thousand and the stars look wonderful and sparkle beautifully. You never see them like that from, with all the pollution on the ground.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But the, so it was an interesting and enjoyable job actually doing. It’s accurate enough. Nowhere near as accurate as radar.
DK: No.
GC: But it’s accurate enough to get you —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On a long journey. On a long journey it’s good enough. Yes.
DK: So, what about the electronic devices then? H2S and Gee. Did you use those as well?
GC: Oh yes. I mean, I used those in Europe all the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: H2S. People are more familiar with that then they realise. They see it on films. You see, you see something going around on a sort of old television screen.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And you realise you’re looking at illuminated rivers, illuminated coast, illuminated cities. A city would show up as a blob of light and the conurbation would be the right shape so you could identify that city. Very useful when you cross the coast. You see this long line of light. So H2S was very useful. It was map reading above cloud. That’s the whole point.
DK: And the radar scanner’s under the aircraft isn’t it?
GC: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So you’re looking at like a kind of a TV screen in effect. Is that right?
GC: Yes. Yes. So you had these two, as I say rather old fashioned television sets —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On one side of the desks. That was H2S. Gee. I have no idea really what Gee stands for and I’ve no idea how, exactly how it worked. But I can’t remember actually how, how we did it but I know we did get very accurate fixes with Gee. Same principles as H2S really. It’s all a matter of radio pulses receiving —
DK: Gee’s from the ground isn’t it? That’s —
GC: Yeah.
DK: A pulse being sent from the aircraft.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So just going back a little bit you mentioned in your book that you did some training on the Isle of Man.
GC: Yes.
DK: So —
GC: That was my own training. Navigation.
DK: That would have been for the bomb aimers and the navigators would it?
GC: No. I don’t, I was only with navigators then.
DK: Oh ok.
GC: It was the just time I had been with only navigators. Because I’d been in the PNB category.
DK: Yeah.
GC: There were I suppose twenty or thirty of us at the top of the Isle of Man. The Point of Ayre where there’s an aerodrome. And we were there for six months flying all over the Irish Sea. And at the end of that period we became navigators or we didn’t but I think most people did. How’s that?
DK: You mentioned in your book getting lost and ending up over [unclear]
GC: Yes. Well, that’s, you were talking about cloud. If you have, if you have ten tenth stratus cloud, this horrible grey blanket that covers the sky you simply can’t map read. And they told us that we were supposed to navigate using compass bearings. Mainly compass bearings. We could use radio. And if you, you know if you can’t see the ground you can’t. You can’t do it. There was nothing else to rely upon except radio and when that gave way there was nothing. I had to depend on the flight plan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Until we had a break in the cloud.
DK: And you found yourself over Dublin.
GC: We did. Yes. We did. We did. We did.
DK: So what was the Irish response to that then?
GC: Well, we were flying above this stratus cloud for some time and then suddenly we noticed a clearance ahead and then we noticed a few puffs. A few puffs of smoke. So we all, I think the pilot and the two of us because we were two navigators working together we all realised at the same time, you know we’d gone wrong. And the pilot immediately did a hundred and eighty degree turn and I thought, ‘Oh, we’re over Dublin. Good. We know where we are. So this is where we are. That’s where we’d be if there was no wind. I can calculate the wind velocity, work out a new course.’
DK: Yeah. So were the Irish trying to shoot you down or just —
GC: No, I don’t think —
DK: Or give you a warning shot?
GC: Nothing like that.
DK: Just go, go away.
GC: Yes. I don’t think we took it all that seriously except that we thought we’d better move. Yes.
DK: So this was in the Avro Ansons was it you were flying?
GC: That was an Anson. Yes.
DK: What did you think of those aircraft?
GC: Well, they were quite useful for navigation because of all the windows. What were they called? Flying glasshouses or something.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They were quite good for that purpose and it was the first aircraft of the RAF which had a retractable undercarriage.
DK: Right.
GC: We had to turn the handle, I think it was a hundred and thirty seven times to get the undercarriage up. But that was the first one. There was nothing else. All other planes had a fixed undercarriage which of course reduced the speed quite a lot and if, if pilots with Ansons were not bothered to do the winding up —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Which is understandable.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: They would reduce the speed by about thirty knots. That was the calculation.
DK: So, and coming in to land did you have to wind it all back down again or did you —
GC: Well, that’s right. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Another a hundred and thirty seven to get the undercarriage down.
GC: Well, when we had two navigators working together you see the other one did all the odd jobs.
DK: Right.
GC: Only one did the real navigation. The other one had to do the winding up [laughs] among other things. Yes.
DK: So at the end of your training in, on the Isle of Man then. You’re a fully fledge navigator then at that point are you?
GC: Yes.
DK: So where did you go then? ‘Cause —
GC: Well, we went across to the mainland and I’ve forgotten which city we were in but I, I do remember how we became a crew because I had no idea how it was going to be done. And we went in to this large hall and it was full of airmen. Young airmen who had just passed out. Pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators, air gunners and so on all wandering around sipping tea and eating biscuits. And the idea was we just had to form crews. And that’s what happened. People just got in to conversation with somebody. Other people came along and joined them. They formed crews, and so when that was, when that came to an end we had a crew. But as I explained in the book we started to form a Kentish crew until somebody thought it would be good to have a really good air gunner so we went for one who had the highest marks in his gunnery school.
DK: Yeah. That’s make sense.
GC: We stopped the idea of having a —
DK: And he wasn’t, he wasn’t from Kent then.
GC: He wasn’t from Kent.
DK: No.
GC: He was a Scot actually [laughs] yes.
DK: Can you still remember the names of the crew?
GC: No. I can’t remember them all actually, but I can remember some of them. I wish I’d had notice of this [laughs] I’ve got their names. Some of their names.
DK: That’s alright. Don’t worry.
GC: On the back of an envelope, but, or —
DK: The pilot’s name. Can you remember the pilot’s name?
GC: I mean, there was Jack. The bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: John, the pilot. Skipper. And Alan was one of the, was the rear gunner. I can’t remember them all. Very bad. Very bad. It would have helped you know if, if we’d met up since then but we didn’t because when the atom bomb dropped and all our planes were suddenly grounded.
DK: Yeah.
GC: This happened very quickly, you know. When the atom bomb dropped everybody was suddenly shaken, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: All the plans of the Air Ministries were suddenly thrown. Thrown overboard. And we were sent on indefinite leave and we never saw each other again.
DK: You never saw the crew again.
GC: We didn’t see each other again and I didn’t like that very much.
DK: No.
GC: As you can imagine. We’d been together in the air for hours, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And we also had a social life together.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we were just sent away. And we were called back one by one and told we had to do something else. And we did because those who were the last in were going to be the last out. And the last out meant 1947. Two years later.
DK: That’s when you left. 1947.
GC: That’s when I left.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I left Japan actually. Yeah.
DK: Just going, just going back a little bit. When you’ve met up with your crew you were training on Wellingtons. Is that —
GC: I didn’t meet up with the crew.
DK: No. No. Just going back a bit.
GC: Yeah.
DK: When you first met your crew you were then doing training on Wellingtons.
GC: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That was the first plane we went on. Yes. There were five of us then.
DK: Right.
GC: On Wellingtons. That’s right. At the [pause] yes, we did that together. I don’t know how long that lasted. And then we went on to, to Lancasters and that’s where we needed two more members of crew. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
DK: Right.
GC: To make our —
DK: What did you think of the Wellingtons as an aircraft?
GC: Well, I mean I know the Wellington was a much well-regarded aircraft in lots of ways. Everybody knows that it could come back from an operation full of holes and still be airborne because of the wonderful geodetic construction. I also know, and I know more now then that I did then that it was very vulnerable to attacks from the side.
DK: Right.
GC: Until guns were fitted at the side. There was a lot of dependence on rear gunning, rear gunners and front gunners really and forgetting about the side.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: And it was very vulnerable. And there were some very, very heavy losses —
DK: Yeah.
GC: To Wellingtons early in the war. As, and they were very heavy losses of all our bombers because they were all in different ways rather deficient. All our bombers were. They were all twin engined as you probably know. Planes like the Blenheim and the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley. They were all deficient in some way and they had fairly heavy losses.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We needed, we needed the Lancasters.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And the other superior planes.
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas.
GC: Sorry?
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas on the —
GC: Well, that’s right. Yes. That’s right. The Wellington construction is of course of Irish linen —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Stretched over a framework which is duralumin and you’re not intended to walk on it. So there’s this, I thought it was I call it a plank of wood. It was only about that wide, and I never did, I never did use it while I was flying thank goodness. And I was walking along it in the middle of the night, in the blackness of the night alone to check the compass which was kept as far away as possible from magnetic influences.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And I slipped and my foot went through. Which was what was quite inevitable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The reinforced board wasn’t there for nothing.
DK: So were you in the air at the time then were you or was this on the ground?
GC: Oh. All on the ground.
DK: I was going to say.
GC: Had we been in the air I would have been rather concerned [laughs] No, this was a check really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: It was a check of the master compass. Make sure it was functioning properly.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Ok. So you didn’t get in trouble for that then did you?
GC: Well, I can’t remember getting in to any trouble for that actually. I can’t remember anything at all. I’m sure I didn’t. It’s just, you know, in no time at all we were up again in another aircraft.
DK: So, from the, your next bit of training then presumably this was to the Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit it was? Or —
GC: Yes. I always forget it. Can I pause here?
DK: Yes. No. That’s ok.
GC: Maureen.
DK: Yes.
GC: What was my Heavy Conversion Unit? Where I flew in Lancasters. I always forget it.
Other: I don’t, I don’t know what you mean, dear. I’m sorry.
DK: It wasn’t, it wasn’t 1661, was it?
Other: A Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Yeah. Which?
Other: Which airfield?
GC: Yeah.
Other: I could have told you last week.
GC: I could have told you probably a minute ago.
Other: It’s something that —
DK: Well, we can come back to that.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
DK: Lincolnshire. Yeah.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
Other: It was in Lincolnshire. You were probably —
GC: Between, yeah I think we were between. Yeah. I think we were between Newark and Lincoln. I think. Yeah. Swinderby.
DK: Swinderby. Oh right. Ok. Swinderby. Yeah. So it was Swinderby Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Ok. So and this would have been on the Lancasters then.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve got two extra crew. The flight engineer’s turned up.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And the mid-upper gunner.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So, what were your impressions of the Lancaster then?
GC: Well, I loved the Lancaster. I could, it was, it was so much roomier for me. I mean in the, in the Wellington I felt rather short of space because you know spreading out a chart and all the equipment one has. Also it seemed the Wellington was a bit dark. There was much more light in a Lancaster. So there was light and space. It was more, more comfortable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: When I look at pictures of one now they don’t look very comfortable but compared with the Wellington at the time it seemed to me very, very nice. No, I enjoyed flying in a, in a Lancaster. In spite of its noise. Those four Rolls Royce engines made quite a noise. Vibration and noise.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned in your book as well about various issues with oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: Lack of oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: I mean, did you have problems with that at all?
GC: Well yes. With oxygen we had a system cut out and we were about twenty two thousand feet and I don’t think we realised for a time. When we did I think the flight engineer tried to put it right. But the best thing really when that happens is to fly down to nine thousand feet or something like that as quickly as possible because the effect of oxygen deficiency is rather like having a drink too many. You feel rather pleased, rather comfortable, rather sleepy. But of course what’s happening is that your nails are going blue, your heart is beating rapidly and your coordination and clear thinking are suffering. All these things are happening to you. So it’s a very dangerous situation really. And it’s only a matter of minutes before you become unconscious and then death follows doesn’t it? But our, our skipper was very alert and took the aircraft down in good time and I think we were all, all looking rather, rather bad and feeling rather bad at the time. And I think our rear gunner was sick. But we soon recovered.
DK: And you mentioned as well a strange story about you floating out of your seat.
GC: Yeah. Yes.
DK: What happened there?
GC: What interested me about that was this. Everybody knows that being in an aircraft it suddenly drops, then you rise unless you’re strapped in. And when I say dropped I mean a real, we’re dropping a long way. And the opposite of course when you feel that you’re being pressed into your seat when the aircraft suddenly rises. But this was rather interesting because I seemed to leave the seat and float upwards quite gently ‘til I was on the, against the roof and everything on my desk went up with me. And it was all, it was all very gentle. That was my very definite impression and we came down the same way to as the plane entered another whatever it is. It suddenly moved vertically and I came down and back to my seat. It was. Yes, that was what struck me. How comfortable it was. How easy it was.
DK: So, so there was no other crew this happened to then. It was just you.
GC: No. You see, I mean the navigator is in a position with lots of things on his desk that are loose anyway.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And he’s loose in a sense. He’s sort of on a seat and he’s getting up and getting down. Other people are I mean it wouldn’t happen to the rear gunner.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: He’s too tightly [laughs]and I think, I think the pilot and the and the flight engineer probably may have automatically sort of held on or something.
DK: Yeah. So you weren’t prepared for this manoeuvre.
GC: I know I was the only one who floated.
DK: So at this point then presumably you’re, you’re being told the war in Europe is coming to an end.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And you’re told that you’re going to go out to the Far East. Is that how it came about?
GC: Yes. It was, it was always clear that we would be part of Tiger Force. I didn’t know much about Tiger Force except that we, we would be stationed on the Island of Okinawa which had been captured. And I had a fairly clear idea where that was. How far from Japan. And at some stage we were going to fly out there which looking back now seems to me would have been a very hazardous business because of the poor maps, inadequate meteorology, weather forecast and lack of emergency airfields and all those sort of things.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we’d have got there I expect. Most of us. To Okinawa. That was the plan which was hatched I believe by Churchill and Roosevelt in Ottawa. The Ottawa, Ottawa Conference.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They kept changing their plans but the idea really was that Lancasters and Lincolns would be mainly. They were a bit worried about the fuel side of things. Just for the distances. And at one stage they were going to have the Lancasters in pairs with one of them with the petrol. Another time they were going to get rid of the mid-upper gunner’s turret and have an extra petrol tank there.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Called a saddle tank. So we were unaware of all these ideas. Changing ideas. We just carried on flying long distances and —
DK: So, these long distances then. Where were you actually going?
GC: Well, we were going all over the place actually. At that time of course as it was now the end of the European War, we could go anywhere in Europe.
DK: Right.
GC: And we did, you know. We might, I don’t know, go towards Czechoslovakia, somewhere like that. A long distance. So the total time was probably ten or eleven hours.
DK: So you were trying to replicate a flight to Okinawa.
GC: Well —
DK: To the Japanese mainland with these things.
GC: Yes. Personally, my job was to navigate as accurately as possible using the stars over a long distance.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And it didn’t really matter where you went.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any other training for Tiger Force? I have spoken to somebody else. They mentioned that they had some jungle survival training. Did you have any of that?
GC: No. No. I don’t think any of us had that. I don’t know what sort of training the other members of crew had. We didn’t actually have time to talk much about —
DK: No.
GC: Those sorts of thing in between. But everyone had some kind of special training but nothing like that.
DK: Right.
GC: Nothing like jungle warfare.
DK: So, you’re, you’re all prepared then to go out to the Far East.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Then you hear the atomic bombs have dropped.
GC: Yes.
DK: And the war’s come to a very sudden end.
GC: Yes.
DK: How did you feel about that?
GC: Well, I think the same as everyone else. A feeling of tremendous feeling of relief that the war was over. At the same time a certain amount of bewilderment wondering what’s going to happen to us. And a great deal of joy when we heard we were going on indefinite leave. We didn’t know what indefinite leave actually meant but it sounded good. But we didn’t know it meant, it meant that our crew would disperse forever. We hadn’t really thought about that very much. And I did feel very unhappy about that at the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Actually. When I realised that we weren’t going to see each other again.
DK: Yeah. So you did another two years in the RAF then. What were you doing up until ’47?
GC: What happened was I was called back and interviewed by an officer. And he gave me a list of tasks. Jobs. And I said, ‘I don’t like any of those.’ So, he said, he said, ‘Well, there is something else,’ he said, ‘There’s Vocational Advice Service.’ I said, ‘Tell me about that.’ He said, ‘Well, everybody in the RAF now especially those who’ve been in the RAF for six years is probably a bit lost about what to do in civilian life.’
DK: Yeah.
GC: ‘So, we’ve got your Vocational Advice Service. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to train some airmen to administer a whole series of psychological tests to get a profile of everybody’s abilities, aptitudes and interests.’ That’s what I did. I did. There were two of us covering the whole Far East from Burma onwards to Japan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And —
DK: So did you eventually get out to the Far East then?
GC: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Oh yes. I finished up in Japan.
DK: Right.
GC: I was in Japan for six months. I was with the Commonwealth Occupation Force.
DK: Oh right.
GC: In Iwakuni. Not far from Hiroshima as a matter of fact.
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: Sorry?
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: I didn’t actually. No. No. I didn’t. I wasn’t. I wasn’t pushing for that and I didn’t really [pause] we didn’t think much about that really. I was just getting on with my job there.
DK: How did the Japanese treat you as an occupation force?
GC: Well, it varied really. Didn’t have a lot to do with Japanese but if you were dealing with them on a sort of business basis they were quite polite of course, and, yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t socialise with them.
DK: No. No. But they did what they were told then.
GC: I think, I think the Japanese people must have been under shock. Complete shock.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In view of all the propaganda that they’d had over the years under, under their very militaristic regime and so on. And when, when the atom bombs dropped and then capitulation soon afterwards I’m sure they were in a state of utter shock that must have lasted a few years.
DK: And did you see much of the other damage out there at all? [unclear]
GC: No. Not really.
DK: No.
GC: The place where I did see a lot of damage of course was in Rangoon. I was in Rangoon for six months.
DK: Right.
GC: In Burma.
DK: Oh right.
GC: And that was in a terrible state. There were piles, huge piles of rubble in the streets. There were rats everywhere. I was in the old Law Courts which was taken over as Air Headquarters South East Asia. It had many many rats in it. So many rats we had a rat squad. Did nothing but try to exterminate the rats. And the rats almost felt in charge. They would walk along the corridors. Not scuttle. They weren’t hurrying. And they were rats of all shapes and sizes. And they would just walked past you like you were queuing up for the cinema or something like that. But it was in a terrible state and now and again the rats spread bubonic plague.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: Not while I was there but they did sometimes.
DK: So looking back at your time in the RAF you obviously spent many months training to be a navigator. Do you sort of regret that you never flew any operations or [unclear] or relieved?
GC: If the operations at the time, if the normal tour had come I would have just accepted it. I wasn’t relieved that I wasn’t going to do that. No. I think when you’re nineteen you have a different attitude to when you’re, many years later. I was quite happy. I mean we were all volunteers.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We volunteered to do this and had it happened I would have just accepted it. As it didn’t happen I wasn’t particularly relieved and I wasn’t particularly disappointed.
DK: No.
GC: Really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I was always thinking what’s happening next.
DK: Yeah. So how do you look back in the RAF now? Looking back over these years. Is it something you’re proud of and did it teach you things or help you out in life basically?
GC: Yeah. I, I look back with, with some pleasure and satisfaction really. It, I found, I think I was very lucky to be a navigator you see because I liked it. I was very busy I may say. I was, I never had any time to do anything except work in an aircraft but I liked it and so that was very interesting to me. If you’ve had that experience at nineteen of navigating a massive bombing, a bomber. And it was good to meet the people I met and be with the crew. Yes I think it was quite important really. In a way it launched me into my, my career which was at that time in teaching.
DK: Right.
GC: I was accepted for teaching when I was in Burma.
DK: Right.
GC: And the fact that I’d been a navigator I think was a point in my favour because I hadn’t got much in the way of qualifications in view of my school experience. The bombing and so on. I had, I had a very slim certificate issued by the forces in economics, mathematics and one or two other subjects which was called, which was supposed to enable us to have matriculation exemption.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: So if you wanted to go to university you could, you could use this.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As a shortcut. But that’s all I had. So I had to do all my studying afterwards but the, in a way my navigation career gave me, gave me a good start for that I think. In a way. And you know in the ATC. Going back to those days when I was a cadet we did a lot of maths and English apart from you know meteorology and all the RAF subjects.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The, in the ATC in those days a massive amount of money was put in by the Air Ministry and we were busy every day doing something. So I had part of my education in the ATC.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In a sense.
DK: So post-war then you went into teaching then.
GC: I did.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned your book as well you had a lot to do with the Aircrew Association.
GC: Well, I didn’t have a lot to do with it. It didn’t form until the 70s as you know.
DK: No.
GC: It formed rather late and I joined it and had some good friends in it. It was a very important organisation because it suddenly brought together people who had very similar experiences and of course it was a very big organisation. It suddenly spread all around the world and there were branches in, in Australia, Canada and so on. Sometimes there were two branches in one city.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As you probably know. But of course people were getting older. I mean people who joined the air training, sorry the Aircrew Association were probably already grandfathers so [laughs] so after a few years membership declined and then got to the point when they had to dissolve the whole organisation.
DK: That’s a shame.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Well, I think we’ve covered everything. I’ll stop it there. But thanks very much for your time. That’s been very —
GC: That’s alright. I hope it’s of some use.
DK: Oh, it’s marvellous. It’s been a lot of use. Ok. Thanks. I’ll turn that off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Charles Culling
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACullingGC170906, PCullingGC1701
Format
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00:36:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Originally working as a builder merchant, George Charles Culling’s town struggled constantly during the war due to the amount of bombing, which eventually forced his school to close. Finding an interest in navigation equipment, George joined the Air Training Corps and learned more about his interests, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at 18, believing it would be the most interesting thing to do at the time. Joining at a period during which the RAF recruited pilot and navigators together, George was sent to a training camp for several months, alongside other pilots, navigators and bomb aimers. However, he recalls a large loss of air gunners during his training and as such, many of his friends and fellow trainees were changed to air gunner training courses. George recounts his experience with navigation equipment and how much he enjoyed it. He names H2S and Gee, claiming that he had no idea what it stood for, nor how it worked exactly, simply stating that it was incredibly accurate. Initially training on the Isle of Man, George outlined his experience with the Anson and gives several pieces of information on the aircraft. He then recalled moving to RAF Swinderby for his Heavy Conversion Unit, explaining his experience with Wellingtons and Lancasters, praising the construction of the Wellington, making observations about its strengths and vulnerabilities. He also recalls the Lancasters being a great deal more comfortable than the Wellingtons. George continued into the Tiger Force unit following victory in Europe, giving information about his understanding of the plans for the Pacific. However, he felt relief when he heard the war was over, alongside confusion at what he would do next and joy at indefinite leave. He was called back in 1947, eventually joining a psychological test service, ending up in Japan. Looking back onto his career, he found a lot of enjoyment as a navigator. He joined the Bomber Command Association in the ’70s, finding a number of friends and joy throughout it.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Japan
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1947
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
Anson
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Swinderby
Tiger force
training
Wellington