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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/606/8875/PMayBJ1601.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/606/8875/AMayBJ161123.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
May, Ben John
B J May
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
May, BJ
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Ben May (1925 -2018, 1894955 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 420 Squadron. Also includes a short memoir and a photograph.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ben May and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson, and I am interviewing Ben May today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Ben’s home near Canterbury and it is Wednesday the 23rd of November 2016. Thank you very much Ben for agreeing to talk to me today. So, we’ll move onto the first er question Ben if we may. Perhaps you could tell us where and when you were born, please, and what your family background is?
BM: Well, it’s my birthday today, and I’m ninety-one today. So, I was born in 1925 at Birchington in Kent. Now the family lived in East Kent, because my father worked for the local gas company, and er, as I grew up I tended to go that way and my first job was in the forge in the gas works, blowing the bellows, for fifteen bob a week. [laughs] I sort of grew up in the gas works atmosphere and I worked there until I was called up. I was a fitter’s mate there and we did all sorts of things. All sorts of maintenance, on all the equipment in the gas works, which is not terribly interesting but, er, very dusty and dirty. However, I was called up in, er, when was it. [turning over papers] Can you stop for a minute?
CJ: So Ben you were, we got as far as you telling me when it was you were called up. What happened then?
BM: I was a member of the ATC for many years.
CJ: So you were called up when was it?
BM: I was called up in 1944 as a flight engineer under training. I volunteered as a flight engineer and er, the first posting was to Locking, in Cornwall. Sorry Locking in Somerset after ITW in Cornwall. That was very interesting, standing on the cliffs doing signalling [laugh] in the wind. And then my next posting was to St Athan, number 4 School of Technical Training, where I started on the one-year long flight engineer course. Um. At the end of that I passed out on my nineteenth birthday and, er, I can’t read that [?] I’ll do it from, and, er, went down to— I am sorry I got stuck.
CJ: So Ben you were telling me about your training period?
BM: Yes after a couple of years in the ATC in Margate I found myself, I had volunteered for aircrew by then of course. All aircrew were volunteers and, er, I was called up in 1944 and went up to the Recruiting Office in Chatham. [laugh] Where they gave you a cup of tea and a biscuit and said ‘Well done, we’ll call you when we’re ready.’ So they called me up in 1944 and I was sent down to Locking in – down to Cornwall, for initial training, and then onto Locking in Somerset for the first part of the course, and then eventually onto St Athan in South Wales for the 4 Flight Engineer Course, which lasted about a year. There we were taught not only the fundamentals of flying, but also about engines and all the other equipment. You would be amazed the amount of different pieces equipment that are on a bomber. Learned about compressors and filters, and all sorts of bits of gear you wouldn’t even think about. One little joke I play on people. I ask them if they’ve ever heard of changing gear in an aeroplane, and they laugh at you, they say ‘You can’t change gear in an aeroplane.’ But the fact is you can, because there is the two-speed gearbox on the, on the supercharger of the Hercules engine which we flew with, and as you climb the air pressure outside drops away and then you have to change gear on the supercharger. So it always raises a smile when you say you’re changing gear on an aeroplane. Anyway, we learned all about the different systems. Can I stop a minute and start again?
CJ: So Ben you were posted to St Athan for more training. Would you like to tell us what happened from then on?
BJ: That was No. 4 School of Technical Training. It’s a one–year course for flight engineers, and you go through just about every part of the aero – by then you were what they called type cast, type trained. You were selected for one of the four aircraft. There was the Halifax, the Lancaster, the Stirling and the Sunderland which we were being trained for. So you were selected for one of those and in my case it was the Halifax. So, everything on the Halifax was of interest to you and we went on this one–year course, which took just about every part of the Halifax aeroplane and explained it to you. Not only explained it to you, drilled it into you, you had to learn every part of it. What every bit was for and how to maintain them and so on when you were away from base and what to do, you know. There was an awful lot to learn and, er, that took about a whole year to learn that, and, er, and, er, after which I was posted away to a squadron which was Number 420 Squadron which was one of the Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons. It would come over here, they’d brought over a lot of aircrews which were, which were short of a flight engineer, because the Canadians didn’t train any flight engineers, and so as, when the crews came through they selected some of us. They literally dumped us in it, they said, about twelve of us and this bunch of Canadians came along and started crewing up with somebody you know. Very embarrassing that was sitting around waiting for somebody to pick you. But this tall guy came along, asked for me. He’d been reading the notes I think, [laughs] the examination notes and saw something he liked. And so he came and asked for me. I said ‘Well I don’t know any of you, it’s all the same to me so I might as well join your crew.’ And I’m glad I did because they were marvellous, absolutely wonderful guys. And so, we were crewed up and went to further training then. Eh, [pause] I’m sorry I’m getting lost. When we got our crew we embarked on a load of long flights, long training flights. Like a flight from Yorkshire up to Edinburgh and then back down to Cornwall then back home again. So we got some really good experience on long flights, which entail an awful lot of different things to a short flight, where you have to manage the fuel because on the Halifax there were fourteen fuel tanks, and fuel had to be used in a certain order and then some overload tanks pumped from one tank into another and so as to make it go as far as possible. So it was, it was a busy, flight engineer was a busy job, you were always on the go doing something. You had to read all your instruments every twenty minutes, record them or every half an hour. All the oil pressures and the fuel pressures and the cylinder head temperatures and so on, keep a good eye out on your engines. And er, you know, we gelled together as a crew, and we became very good friends. In fact they’ve all been to my house here, all my Canadian friends and I’ve been to all their houses in Canada. So we were really good friends and I suppose that helped us get through the war really. Anyway we were, after a bit more training we were posted to a squadron which was the same as the Canadian squadron, and we went on operations from there. Our first operation was a little town in the Ruhr. We got through that alright and we felt a lot better then, after the first one. But we carried on flying to the end of the war, managed to get – must have been eleven or twelve flights in over Germany, and, er, you know, well we got, looked forward to life out of the flying. I’m sorry I’m not doing very well. [Appears to be a little upset]
CJ: It’s alright.
BM: Life on a squadron is quite different from anything else in the service because there’s a different atmosphere about it. And eh you all know that you’re doing a dangerous job and you might not be here tomorrow was the general feeling, but eh, we settled in quite well, because the Canadians were very hospitable people. They never left me behind when they went out for a drink at night, I was always there with them and they were good mates. We em, [pause] we, we spent a lot of time [pause] talking about, about home. Because home for them was Canada, it was quite different from anything else I’ve seen at that time and er. [pause] And I will tell you something about a typical day on the squadron, eh? Life on the squadron was ruled by daily routine orders and you had to go down to the notice board every day and have a look because woe betide you if you missed something. If ops were on there was an almost palpable atmosphere around the Station because everybody knew that we would be flying that night, so we’d go to the briefing and er, depending whether it was a day or night operation could be late in the day or at mid-day sometimes, and you’d go back to the hut and have a, write your last letters home. [laugh] Write a letter home to your mother always and er, and then you go up to the, to the mess and have a flying breakfast. We were very privileged actually aircrew, whenever we were flying or on an operation we got egg and bacon for breakfast. That was unheard of during the war; we were very, very lucky. [laugh] But er, I suppose we earned it. So you’d go to, you’d go to the mess and have your break, have your flying breakfast, and then you’d go and wait in your huts until we knew what briefing time was and er, then you’d all go into the hut. In the briefing hut there was a very distinct atmosphere about, because the CO would, or the intelligence officer, would pull back the curtains on the target over the, on the stage. There was a pink ribbon stretching from your flight all, following your flight plan it would show you where the target was. And er it was a bit er, you know but you knew it was serious so you got on with it. But we, we flew operationally until just before the end of the war. One particular flight was notable because there was a –, it was a long, long flight to the island of Heligoland which is off the German coast, and, er, [pause] while we were flying over the sea there was a collision between –. Well we don’t know what happened really. Some people say that this particular Halifax pulled the jettison lever, dropped all his bombs together and they – some of them banged together and it went, the bombs went off underneath his aeroplane, but I’m not quite sure that’s true. However the aeroplane blew up in front of us and we flew through the pieces, but we, we only got one crack in the Perspex so it wasn’t too bad. And, er, [pause] Another thing was that we noticed when we were coming back one day early in the morning. We watched a V2 rocket being fired from somewhere in Belgium. So we weren’t the only ones in danger because, that, that rocket landed in England somewhere. Killed a lot of people I imagine. Anyway, the um, the operations were pretty straightforward, because you’d been trained how to use the, all the equipment on the aeroplane. Lots, lots of different systems, lots of things to look at. My job of course was to monitor the fuel system because the Halifax had fourteen fuel tanks, and er some had to be used in a certain order so that they balanced and then the overload tanks had to be pumped into the normal tanks and what with that and doing all the other things. Like the other bits of equipment. Dropping flares and, and all sorts of little jobs that you wouldn’t even think about the flight engineer’s job was quite busy, um, [pause].
CJ: I think you mentioned on the Heligoland raid you saw a Lancaster dropping a Tall Boy bomb?
BM: Oh yeah, yeah I did, yeah, one thing, one notable flight was when we were going in over , over em ‒ . Now let me think where it was. We were going in over one target and there was a Lancaster, a Pathfinder Lancaster, Number 19 Group I imagine. Came, flew alongside us but below us about, about a thousand feet below us. He was carrying one of the first Tall Boy bombs, one of the very big bombs. A twelve thousand pounder I think, wasn’t it? Yeah it was a twelve thousand pounder and we watched, we watched that bomb go, we watched that bomb go down. It was absolutely amazing, it went right smack in between the runway. It was on the –, the raid was on the airfield in Helgoland and the bomb dropped right on the, the er, intersection of the two runways. There wasn’t much runway left when that, after that had gone off. That was quite spectacular. And er, we had to [pause/ a little confused] hold on. So one way and another we, we totalled up a, a total of eleven operations over Germany while the war was still on, because I mean I was only thirteen when the war started so I’m surprised I got into it at all. [laugh] Anyway the war finished and the flying finished and I was made, made redundant and so had to retrain, and, and er, the, the trade, I chose was, was um, [pause] oh God – . I retrained as a, as a fitter marine on the rescue boats. So it was, it was much the same job as the flight engineer’s looking after the fuel and all the equipment but on a rescue boat. So, but we were supposed to be going out to, to join the air sea rescue people but the war finished before we could go out, before we could get there. So, anyway I carried on in the Air Force until I was demobbed in 19 – , when was I demobbed? 1944 was it,
CJ: ‘47 was it, you said?
BM: hang on a mo. [Looking through papers] Yeah I remustered and retrained as fitter marine, with the intention of joining the Air Sea Rescue Services in the Pacific with the expected invasion of Japan, but that didn’t come off, because the atom bomb put an end to that, and so I finished my service in 1947 on marine craft. I, I retrained as a fitter marine and they sent me out to Singapore so I had a year in Singapore which was quite interesting. And er, so I came back home and got my demob suit [laugh] and er, re-joined civilian life. Which wasn’t easy because I hadn’t got a job and er, oh dear – .Anyway [pause], I’d always been interested in photography so, after the war, I got a job with one of those companies on the seafront taking walking pictures and er, I did, I did a year of that. Just kept the, kept the rent coming in and er, found it very interesting actually, especially when you get down on the beach chasing all the girls, you know it’s quite good fun and, anyway I packed that up. I got interested in photography and because the company I worked for said ‘what else can you do?’ So I said I’m, I’m quite handy with a tool kit, so they put me in the workshop repairing cameras of all things. But these cameras weren’t, weren’t like, like your little snapshot cameras. They were great big postcard size, negative reflex cameras, and they were quite complicated and er, the chap in the workshop there was very clever. He got me, got me making spindles on the lathe. I used to make the little roller spindles for him on the lathe and er, that was quite interesting. But then the workshop was next door to the commercial department where they did what we call proper photography. Real commercial photography, not the beach stuff, and I used to go into there and I got interested in that and in the end I decided to take my exams as a, as a, as a photographer. So I genned up and went to night school, went to, and I learned about photography proper, and er, then I joined [little confused] joined a company doing, doing all sorts of commercial photography, and er, managed to get some aerial photography in too, which was quite good. And er, I got really interested in it so in the end I went to night school, took my exams in photography and started my own business. So [pause] I kept, I kept the family, I was married by then and kept the family in groceries. [Slightly confused] I’m sorry I am not very good. Since the war my life has been in photography, professional photography and er, [pause] I, I tried to do as much aviation work as I could, but um, apart from the SR53 which was – I’ll go back ‒ . I went to work for a [pause/looking through papers] I’m sorry.
CJ: You said you were doing some aviation work and you were on this SR53 project, I think, which is a prototype aircraft?
BM: Yeah I went to work for er, I went to work for Saunders Roe, who had, who had launched the SR53 which was a rocket. Which was a, a twin jet with a rocket engine and a jet engine, and I did the air to air pictures of that flying in a Meteor. [laugh] And eh ‒ .
CJ: I think you mentioned some Concorde shots as well?
BM: Yes, I managed; I managed to get some air to air shots of Concorde one day. I dunno how I got that job but I did, I got some nice shots of Concorde in mid-air, and er, sold a nice lot of those. [laugh] But other than that my work’s all been in commercial photography. But of course, any time, any chance we get near an aeroplane. I go to air days, I go to air shows and so on and er, it has all been very interesting.
CJ: You mentioned that you have been over to Canada to see the crew and they have been here. Did you have regular reunions?
BM: Yeah, well my Canadian crew of course all went back home and they were glad to get back to Canada, but it wasn’t long before they invited me over there. And er, so I took a trip over there one day, and er, [pause] [unclear] I went two or three times to Canada. And my, my crew all came here, they all, they all visited me here. And we had some, had some, jolly good booze ups I can tell you, [laugh] as one does. But um, I am still in touch with one of them, all the (others), they have all passed away I am afraid. [pause] I am the last one of the crew left. [laugh] There’s one or two people that I know in Canada, but er.
CJ: And how do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
BM: You ask any one of the thousands of Bomber Command people, they will all tell you the same thing. It was treated rather shoddily. But er, I went up to the, to the big day when the Queen came and um, unveiled the Memorial. I spent a happy day in London doing that – and er, [pause] oh well. It is all part of life isn’t it, these things. [pause]
CJ: So were there any big squadron reunions that you went to or were the reunions just with your crew?
BM: No the only, only RAF reunions I went to were with my crew but, as I say, they have all been here to visit me here, and er – .[pause] As I say, I, I wrote to them for years and years and years but as I say I am the only one left now. Our skipper was in the timber business. He went back to running two big timber camps in Canada, chopping down trees. [laugh] [pause] er, [looking through papers] Yeah, we got through the war. We were quite surprised really, we, we got through without any real damage to the aeroplane. Our rear gunner got a piece of shrapnel in his, in his forearm. That was about the only thing that happened to our aeroplane, we were very lucky and er ‒ . Flying out of a little field in Yorkshire a place called Tholthorpe in North Yorkshire. The local people there were very kind to us. There was always someone to mend your socks for you. You know have a little word when you got a bit upset sometimes, and er, of course the village pub in that village, pub did a roaring trade with the, with the aircrew blokes. But er, I have been back to the airfield since actually, it’s still there, and the runways are still there and the perimeter track’s still there. Somewhat overgrown of course but er. [pause] Funnily enough my hobby by then was flying radio-controlled models, and I, I took one up to the runway and flew it off the runway. [laugh] That is how sentimental I am. [laugh] Yeah.
CJ: I think you mentioned one operation where you got, the aircraft was damaged by ack, em, anti-aircraft fire.
BM: Oh yeah we got some, we got a few holes in the aeroplane yeah. We got – on operations we got quite badly shot up one night with, with anti-aircraft. In fact when we got down there was, there was, seven large holes in the aeroplane. And er, I went, I went down to change, change fuel tanks. At that time when you have been out, and almost back home again, you, you, you use every bit of fuel that’s in the tanks so, I was draining this tank and you, to drain the tank, you, you switch the engine to that tank, and you, you leave it until the little warning light comes on. The little red warning light flickers and then it stays on steadily. You nip up quickly and change, change the tanks over then. But I was waiting for this to happen and er, all of a sudden one of the engines started to splutter a bit, so I changed tanks quickly and went forward to see what was wrong. Only, only found out later that the, the fuel pipes for that tank had been shot away, so I would have waited all night and it wouldn’t have come on again. Anyway, that is the sort of thing that happened, that’s why they put you on there.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today Ben, that was really interesting and we’ll end the interview there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ben John May
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Johnson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-23
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMayBJ161123
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:32:39 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Glamorgan
England--Cornwall (County)
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Singapore
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chris Johnson
Terry Holmes
Description
An account of the resource
Ben was born in 1925 in Kent and his first job was in the gas works. A member of the Air Transport Command, he was called up in 1944 and after initial training at RAF Locking he joined No.4 flight engineers course at RAF St Athan for one year. He relates about the number of items of equipment in a bomber that he received training on. He then specialised on the Halifax and was sent to 420 Squadron where he crewed up and flew long flights as part of his training. Ben explains in detail the duties of the flight engineer and how much work it entailed. Posted to RAF Tholthorpe, he relates on life in bomber command on a typical day.
The first of his eleven operations was to the Ruhr valley which was uneventful, unlike the one to Helgoland where the aircraft in front of them exploded and they flew through the debris virtually unscathed. On another op, Ben had a grandstand view of the release of a Tallboy bomb and its devastating effect.
At the end of the war Ben retrained as a marine fitter and spent a year in Singapore before being demobbed. After a year as a photographer, he spent time in the camera workshop repairing commercial cameras and became a qualified photographer. Moving to a commercial photographic firm and then Saunders Roe, he specialised in air to air photography, including the SR53 experimental aircraft and Concorde and still retains his interest by visiting air displays.
Ben has had exchange visits with his Canadian former crew and feels, like most bomber command veterans, that they were treated shabbily.
420 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Locking
RAF St Athan
RAF Tholthorpe
Tallboy
training
V-2
V-weapon
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/617/8886/APackmanDE161130.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Packman, Doug
Douglas Ernest Packman
D E Packman
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Packman, DE
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Doug Packman (1925, 1866208 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a fight engineer with 630, 57 and 44 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Doug Packman today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s digital archive. We’re at Doug’s home in Tankerton in Kent, and it is Wednesday the 30th of November 2016. Thank you, Doug, for agreeing to talk to me today, and also present in the house is Barbara Masters, a friend of Doug’s. So, Doug, perhaps you could tell me first of all please your date and place of birth and your family background?
DP: Yes Chris. My date of birth was January the 10th 1925. My parents Lucy and Ernest Packman had their one and only child, that of course was me. If my parents could have shown me the beautiful night sky due south at nine fifty-five pm, we would have observed the most wonderful sight. I refer to the Orion [emphasis] nebula. The first star to pass by this, in this constellation was Rigel. Standing at approximately 30, 25’ due south, approximately 188 magnetic. I of course, just newly born, would know nothing [emphasis] of this. My only interest would have been in the warm arms of my loving mother. We, that is mum, dad and I, lived with my grandparents at Coxett Farm, Hansletts Lane, near Ospringe, Faversham. I will give you its actual [laughs] location [emphasis]. North 51 18’, east 000, 51.116’. I very often pass by this lovely old farmhouse on my way to church at Stalisfield. I look on this as my place of birth and where my life and adventures began. When a few months old, my parents decided I must be christened. One fine Saturday, Sunday [emphasis] afternoon, my mother, grandmother and an aunt were all prepared for the short journey to the church of St Peter and St Paul at Ospringe. They looked around for my dad and found him clearing, cleaning his motorcycle [emphasis]. ‘Come on Ernest’ said my mother, ‘have you not yet thought of another name to give our lad besides Ernest?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘call him Douglas.’ ‘Why Douglas?’ asked mum and grandma. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘this is the best motorcycle I have ever had’ [CJ laughs] ‘so why not?’ I was so grateful in later years to my old dad, but I am very glad he did not own a Rudge, B.S.A. or Matchless at that time [CJ laughing]. My parents and I very often laughed about this. We move. Some two years after my birth in nineteen, in 1927, we moved to St Marys in the Isle of Grain. I always remembered it as remote and desolate, but I suppose it did have a certain beauty. And I must say during my childhood, my father taught me to ride horses at an early age, for I have loved horses all my life. He also taught me how to handle guns and shoot in a responsible manner. When I was ten [emphasis] I could drive a car around the farm, also help repair stationary engines. I have a photo of me driving a Standard Fordson tractor at the age of thirteen [CJ laughs]. World War Two. As we all know, World War Two started in 1939. When I was fourteen I worked as a boy messenger for the GPO, both at Ashford and Chatham, and by the time I was fifteen my parents had both decided that I should work at home on the farm. I was just over fifteen when I decided to join the LDV, or home guard. I will be honest, this was not, certainly [emphasis] for patriotic reasons. I wanted a stout pair of boots for farm work [CJ laughs] so what better than British Army boots? On my sixteenth birthday, I was, I was given my first driving licence. I, it covered all groups, so now I could drive a five ton Bedford lorry, and just about everything else. I might add I have never passed a driving test [CJ laughs], it was not needed in wartime. I led a busy life. I studied for two evenings a week under the guidance of Oscar George, our rector. He was a brilliant man, he had patience with me and I soaked up all [emphasis] that he gave me to do, maths, science, history etcetera. I owe him a great deal, for without his guidance I would never have passed my aircrew exams. Long distance running was also taken up, along with boxing and unarmed combat. Being in the Home Guard meant guard duty at times. Looking back, I suppose I was very lucky for as you might know, there was a complete blackout during that time. The sky could be observed without the distraction of streetlights etcetera. I think it might have got me interested on the beauty of the night sky, and it’s always been there for me. Those times, times can never come back. When I reached my seventeenth birthday, I went into the recruiting office above Burtons’ buildings at Chatham and asked to join RAF aircrew. A few weeks later I went to Cardington and passed my medical A1 and two or three days of examinations. I knew I might have difficulties for I was a farm boy and in a reserved occupation, however after almost a year I finally wore them down. I suppose they got fed up with me, and at eighteen walked into Lords cricket ground and so started what was for me the great adventure of my life.
Watching the stars again. I suppose it was around August 1944 that we visited some part of northern Germany. I remember we delivered our presents and, there being rather a lot of flak, Alec told me to put on climbing power. I adjusted my engines to twenty-eight thousand, two-thousand eight-hundred and fifty rpm and boost pressure to +9lbs/sq. in. We entered dense cloud and about ten minutes later, emerged from this dense cloud at about ten thousand feet. The effect was truly amazing for the night sky was just brilliant [emphasis]. It was a moon and just about every star at its best. I can only describe it as like entering from a complete darkness into a brilliant theatre full of light. It has forever stuck in my mind. I well remember Claude, our navigator, coming out of his small office behind me and pointing at the Plough and Pole Star. I have, if I’d had my planisphere with me at that time I could have told the time by the star Dubhe or the Plough, pointing to the star. It was all so [emphasis] exciting. It was the wrong time of the year to see Orion in the northern hemisphere, but many years later, after Pegs and I got married, I purchased a 4½” Newtonian reflector telescope, so that we could both enjoy many evenings of watching that beautiful night sky. But of course, one could not enjoy the full beauty, for there are so many lights from our towns and cities throughout the world and it does [emphasis] affect the viewing. But I will ask the reader not to be put off. Sometimes maybe around January the 10th next year, if you are fed up of watching the box, and some silly parlour game, get up [emphasis], go to your south aspect door and just look up [emphasis] and with a bit of luck you will be rewarded with the Orion Nebula. You can always [emphasis] make the excuse that you are putting the empty milk bottles or the cat out [CJ laughs]. God bless you all.
CJ: Well thank you Doug, that was great. Could you perhaps tell me now – you said you’d been to the recruiting office and joined up and that you went through the medical, so perhaps you could tell us about your time during training and going up to joining an operational squadron?
DP: Yes. I, I was very anxious to join up, simply because we just wanted to give Hitler a bloody nose [emphasis] [CJ laughs], and, er, I, I arrived at Lords cricket ground on the, sometime in March 1943, and there I met up with a wonderful fellow who I would like to tell you about. His name is John Mannion, and John was one of those who did not [emphasis] come back. So I would like to say, to tell you about him now. Is it there? [Pause whilst shuffling paper.] I first met John at Lords cricket ground one sunny morning in March 1943. ‘Good morning, my name’s John Mannion, what’s yours?’ ‘Doug,’ I replied, and we shook hands heartily. We attended lectures and training sessions at St John’s Wood, Torquay and St. Athan’s engineering school in Wales, until the Christmas of that year when we passed our final examination and emerged as sergeant flight engineers to fly in the mighty Lancaster. John was posted to No. 1 Group. I was sent to 5 Group Bomber Command. We would sometimes meet up in Lincoln, go to dances, chase the girls, for we were young [emphasis] and the world was our oyster. No two young men enjoyed life more. Full of enthusiasm, we went to war in order to give, as I say, Hitler a bloody nose. By June 27th, 1944, I had completed about eight operations when I had one of my letters to John returned to me. John had been killed on the 25th of June 1944, somewhere over Europe, whilst flying a Lancaster with 576 Squadron. John was never to reach his twentieth birthday. My first wife Alice Ida and I went to RAF Bomber Command War Memorial at Runnymede to see his name carved in stone. It all seems like a dream now, but I shall always remember the great adventures we had in that short time together. I shed a tear. Who knows, John and I might meet up again when I depart this life, then we can resume our chatter and thoughts. Rest in peace John.
CJ: Aw that’s lovely.
DP: That is my dedication to all of those, and John, who died and never made it back.
CJ: Mhm. Thank you. So could you tell me please, which was your first squadron and how many operations you did, and the sort of operations you were doing?
DP: Yes Chris, I did thirty-four operations in total, and that was on 630 Squadron at East Kirkby in Lincolnshire. There was another squadron there, 57 Squadron was out sister squadron. Erm, we took, I suppose, about five to six months to complete that tour of operations and then we were rested and went to, I went to the Lancaster finishing school at Syerston as an instructor. I served at Syerston and flew many operations training people and then my pilot and I, the late flight lieutenant John Chatterton DFC we returned to 630 Squadron again as squadron engineers. Squadron instructors [emphasis] rather. And the war ended in Europe. We were all destined to go to Japan, or fight the Japanese, but the bombing of Hiroshima settled all of that and our squadron was disbanded [emphasis] and then John and I were transferred to 57 again as squadron instructors, and we took the place of Mike Beetham and Ernest Scott who was his flight engineer. Incidentally, Mike Beetham became Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham and he died two years ago. But then we moved from East Kirkby to Mildenhall in Suffolk where we joined John’s old squadron, 44 Squadron, and from there we flew operations out to Italy bringing back prisoners of war, so that was, that was it.
CJ: So when did you actually leave the RAF?
DP: Er, I left the RAF in around about March 1946 and then I was told to go to the Adjutant and said ‘go home and if you can get a job I will secure your release under Class B.’ I didn’t know much about what Class B was but I was looking forward to going home and getting married, but under Class B I was restricted to farm work until 1953/54, which wasn’t a very good move [laughs].
CJ: And looking back on your operational missions, were there any that you remember for the right or wrong reasons, when you, you thought you’d done a particularly good job or you had any close shaves?
DP: Well there was one close shave I had, and I think this piece of the aeroplane peller, propeller – [paper shuffling] I’ll show you – it might be of interest. It was at Revigny and it was on the 18th or 19th of July I think. I’m not sure I’ll have to check about that. Anyway, that night we went to Revigny and it had been bombed [emphasis] four times previously and I think [emphasis] we all thought it was an easy run for we went in, there was very little flak, we dropped our bombs and then there was just setting course for home when all hell let loose. Er, the mid upper gunner screamed out that the plane was alight [emphasis]. There was holes that appeared all over the place and I rushed back to see if I could be of assistance but he was enveloped, or rather that part of the aircraft was enveloped in fire, sizzed my eyebrows a bit and I reported to Alec, our pilot, that she was well [emphasis] alight. He then gave us instructions to bale out, and by the time I got back the navigator and bomb aimer had taken the escape hatch out of the bomb aimers compartment and we had a routine of getting out. I went, was going to be first, the bomb aimer, navigator, pilot, wireless operator would follow, the other two if they were lucky would get out the back, the two gunners. I, I’d dropped through the hatch as I thought, but the aircraft was in a spin and I was promptly, promptly dumped back [emphasis] in it again [laughs]. And there was no escape, all three of us were penned in that small area. I obviously was not on the intercom but the navigator or bomb aimer was still in contact, and Alec said ‘get him back up here to help me pull her, see if we can save her.’ I got up those two steps with their assistance – it was like climbing a mountain [CJ laughs]. So I got hold of the control column with Alec and we tugged and tugged [emphasis], and eventually she came up, but I remember seeing the top of Alec’s head, because I was laying on top of the canopy looking down onto him, or up at him, whichever the case may have been, and the next moment I was on the floor by his side. Alec got the aircraft under control, but he said afterwards that he looked at the speedometer and we must have touched four-hundred miles an hour in that dive, and it was pretty horrendous [emphasis]. Anyway, we got back, how we got back we never knew, but we got back and we were only ten minutes behind time, so it was – we were very [emphasis] lucky. But as we got out of the aircraft at East Kirkby I picked up a bit of the propeller which had hit my right leg and that’s it there. I’ve kept it ever since. I must say, as we got out the aircraft there was really no need to go to the rear door, we could have all walked out the side of it. It was just shattered [emphasis]. No tail planes, very little of the fuselage and yet we all [emphasis] got out of there, we were all [emphasis] extremely quiet, and there was not much laughter. But we went on operations the following night. But the aircraft I thought at the time was a write-off, but afterwards I found out that it had been patched [emphasis] up and it got lost I think on Stuttgart a few months later. But that was quite a hairy situation.
CJ: So the piece of propeller that you showed me – that was from your own aircraft?
DP: Yes, it came from starboard inner propeller. I feathered the engine, I had to stop the engine afterwards but we came back on three and, the Lancaster being the brilliant aircraft that it was came back no trouble whatsoever. So that was it.
CJ: Wow. And did you have any other missions that were memorable for good –
DP: Well –
CJ: Or not so good reasons?
DP: Well, at St Nazaire, the submarine pens at St Nazaire springs to mind. The Pathfinders had gone in and marked the target. It was brilliant [emphasis]. The sky – I was able to write [emphasis] my log and my engineer’s log without any assistance, just from the reflection of the, of the searchlights, it was enough, and as we were going in, we could see that they’d – that Alec our pilot said, ‘there’ll be fighters, so when we get straight and level over the target that will be the danger point.’ He instructed me to get in the front turret, so I stood in the front turret with Walter, the bomb aimer with his head between my feet, sighting up the target, and Alec gave the two gunners and myself instructions – ‘do not [emphasis] shoot unless you know that they’re coming for us.’ I think that was good, but all of a sudden I saw a dot [emphasis] in, on the horizon, and it quickly got – as it got closer I could see that it was a Focke-Wulf 190, and it was coming straight [emphasis] at us, point blank. And at the last moment it veered off over our port wing. It was so close that with the lights from the searchlights, I could see the shape of the pilot and also the oil streaks under its belly showed up. And I never want to see a Focke-Wulf or any other aeroplane quite that close again. It was a narrow, narrow day. And just recently, I’ve read in the “Daily Telegraph” obituary column of a German colonel, a friend of Hermann Goering, who ran the Wild Boar Squadron, so called, and he gave instructions to his men that if they ran out of ammunition and they couldn’t bring them down, just ram [emphasis] them. All I can say, I think that man was very kind. He either lost his nerve and we lived another day, so that was it. But that was very, very hairy that one. But apart from that we had the usual. Sometimes it was not easy, but we always [emphasis] lived to see another day, yes. But there we are. I think we were very, very lucky and out of thirty-four operations, there was no-one [emphasis] suffered at all. We weren’t hit, so God was with us [laughs] and, you know, it was marvellous. I would like to add this, that when we used to go to, down to take off from East Kirkby, each night or sometimes in the day, we would stand at the end of the runway ready for the green light and I would open up the engines, taking over from Alec, to give it full power and when I’d got full power on I’d always say, or murmur to myself a silent prayer. And that was to, to ask God to look after my parents and Jean my girlfriend and above all, would he let me see the sun rise in the east in the morning. And I used to say that every day, and I must say that it was good because my parents lived to a ripe old age and Jean, and I, are now almost ninety-two years of age. So, thank you God [both laugh].
CJ: Hmm. And did you go on to marry Jean later?
DP: Er, no. I married Alice Ida, partner and, in 1946, and we had eleven years of marriage and then, one Christmas she was, she went to hospital and she was diagnosed with leukaemia and they told me she’d got eleven, no, eight months to live, and she did indeed die on 8th of August 1958. So that was indeed hard, and er, it was hard in many ways because I lived in a very nice council house, an agriculture council house, but she died on the Saturday and on the Monday the rent collector informed me that, having no children, I would be required to vacate the house in a fortnight. So, I lost my wife [emphasis], my house and my job all in that fortnight, which wasn’t good.
CJ: And what did you go on to do after that? Did you carry on farming?
DP: Well I, I stopped on the farm, and I started keeping a few sheep and pigs myself, and I did that for a little while but I, I became ill and I was told to go on sea cruise and I did something that I never thought I’d do. I signed on the P&O liner Himalaya, and she was about to do a world cruise. And so I went away for six months, and in that time I saw Australia, New Zealand, the States, Canada, er Japan, New Zealand, and we did forty-four thousand miles, and I came back and Peggy, Patricia Penfold, who I’d known for many years, and although she was twelve years older than me she, we were in love and we married on that, when I came back. And we had forty-one [emphasis] years of lovely marriage. She died Christmas 2000, and that was it.
CJ: And you said that you were lucky that you and your crew survived the war. Were you able to keep in touch with them and attend reunions?
DP: Well yes [emphasis], I was able to keep in touch with my last pilot John Chatterton, he was a farmer in Lincolnshire, and also my pilot Alec Swain, he was a big industrialist in Manchester, and we kept in contact right up until Alec died [emphasis] and I was able to meet also the bomb aimer and the wireless operator, and Walter is still alive now and he lives in Kettering, and he’s indeed full, full, no he’s one year older than me, so he’s ninety-three. But it’s, so he’s the only one left now, yes.
CJ: And how, how did you feel that Bomber Command were treated after the war?
DP: Well I, I think it was a bit rough. We got criticised and I think it was quite unnecessary because at that [emphasis] time I think we were the only – it was the only defence we’d got was the Air Force flying, but we got shouted at and abused for Dresden and all that sort of thing. But I always thought that, you know, the Germans were bombing Coventry and the docks of London and all [emphasis] these other places, and I thought it was a bit unjustified. But yes, I suppose we didn’t get a medal, a campaign medal, but I’ve never been, I’ve never been, never been very interested in medals anyway so it doesn’t make much difference to me. I met, I never had any brothers or sisters, but being in an RAF aircrew, in a Lancaster, member of a Lancaster crew I had six wonderful brothers, and that [emphasis] to me was worth every, every operation I did. They were lovely men, marvellous people.
CJ: And have you been inside a Lancaster since you left the RAF?
DP: Yes [emphasis]. I was lucky enough to – when I was seventy years of age, John Chatterton my pilot had a son, Mike Chatterton, and he was flying the Lancaster at Coningsby and they were doing a flight from Coningsby to Wittering and he said that I could join them, and so we, we all assembled at Coningsby, John Chatterton, Dennis Ringham our gunner, Bill Draycott the bomb aimer and myself [emphasis], and we all took off with an escort of two fighters for Wittering [emphasis]. But the big surprise that Mike spread, sprung on us was that at briefing he said to the two pilots of the fighters, ‘when we leave Wittering, I will be handing over the controls to Doug Packman, and so give him a bit of airspace please.’ I was dumbfounded [emphasis], I thought he must have been speaking of somebody else but no, it was me, and it was [emphasis], I was so [emphasis] – I was over [emphasis] the moon. Anyway, true to his word, when we left Wittering, he allowed me to take over controls because it was dual control in that Lancaster, and I must have had a smile like the cat’s got the cream [emphasis], [CJ laughs], ‘cause as we flew on I thought of all the operations, I thought of my other crews and the boys, and I was really [emphasis] very happy, and after a few minutes Mike took over to do a beautiful landing back at East Kirkby. And a few years, a couple or three years later he allowed me to start up at the J-Jane at, which is at East Kirkby, it belongs to the Panton brothers, and I was able to start that up and, without any instructions, so indeed, I had my lessons learnt during the RAF had not left me, and that was it. So I’ve been very happy.
CJ: Well thank you very much for talking to us today Doug, that was excellent –
DP: Well it’s –
CJ: Thank you very much indeed.
DP: Okay Chris, thank you [emphasis] very much.
[Tape paused and restarted.]
CJ: Doug, could you just explain please how you came to have this bit of propeller with you?
DP: Yes. The, as the, this explosion, this terrific [emphasis] explosion came, I found out later it was from the Schrage Musik from possibly a JU88 had fired straight up, and they used to aim at the mid-section, which was the petrol tanks, and in this case what they did explode was the ammunition drums, and everything. That’s what caused the, the fire. But the propeller I – the starboard engine which I had to feather because it was running rough, had made a hole the size I would imagine from memory, much [emphasis] larger than that, it was about, ooh it was about a six inch square hole, this small piece had made, and it had been – it hit my leg as it came in but my well cushioned flying boot and thick socks, it didn’t hurt me at all I just felt [emphasis] it, and there it was, laying beside this hole. And looking at it, one can tell that it is [emphasis] propeller, or bits of a propeller because there was holes literally everywhere [emphasis]. Not large holes, the one, this one I’ve described was probably the biggest, but that’s it. And I’ve shown it to many people and they all say, you know, that’s it, the starboard propeller.
CJ: And the JU88 that attacked you, that was, that had special armament?
DP: Yes, they had upward facing guns which they could – that was one of the weak parts of a Lancaster, they didn’t have a downward firing gun or no way of observing, and they could come up underneath [emphasis] you, slightly come up underneath you, and then the pilot of the JU88, he could focus his guns right underneath you and it’s well known and documented that they used to aim for the mid-section, i.e. to get the fuel tanks really and, of course, the ammunition. And this is just what it did, but very [emphasis] lucky for us, it was just the ammunition drums that exploded and I suppose the incendiary bullets on that would have caused, you know, caused all this fire. And in fact, in that area it was just devastated [emphasis]. We didn’t stop to look at it, we just wanted to get out of it when we landed. But it was just naked framework if you understand.
CJ: Okay, thank you for clarifying that Doug.
DP: Yes.
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Title
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Interview with Doug Packman
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-11-30
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Sound
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APackmanDE161130
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:38:48 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
France--Revigny-sur-Ornain
France--Saint-Nazaire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1946-03
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Chris Johnson
Sally Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Doug grew up in Kent. He joined the Royal Air Force at 18, as a flight engineer for 630 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby in 5 Group Bomber Command, flying Lancasters. He carried out 34 operations, followed by time as an instructor at RAF Syerston, returning to 630 Squadron. He describes two hairy situations over France with their ammunition tanks being hit by an upward-firing Schräge Musik from a Ju-88 over Revigny, and a very close encounter with a Fw 190 at Saint-Nazaire. They survived both situations. A move to 44 Squadron followed and he flew operations to Italy, bringing back prisoners of war. He left the RAF in March 1946. Doug describes his love of the night sky.
44 Squadron
57 Squadron
630 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
civil defence
faith
flight engineer
Fw 190
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
memorial
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Syerston
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/664/10068/PAbrahams.1.jpg
5ca2f683b76f7fd1b5a8ca2fca3e7ad4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/664/10068/AAbrahamsGJ170617.1.mp3
cef749f37d6d36193023692dcf3c2847
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Abrahams, Gerald Joseph
G J Abrahams
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Gerald Joseph Abrahams (1923 - 2023, 1850566). He few operations as a wireless operator with 75 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-06-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Abrahams, GJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Gerry Abrahams today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at the Spitfire Museum at Manston and it is Saturday 17th of June 2017. Thank you for agreeing to talk to me today, Gerry. So, first of all perhaps you could tell us please where and when you were born and your family’s background?
GA: I was born in London in 1923. And my father was in textiles, and I suppose we were a lower middle-class family.
CJ: And did you go to school in that area?
GA: I went to school in London. Yes.
CJ: And so did you have any part time jobs or — ?
GA: No.
CJ: You were helping father or —
GA: No. Nothing at all. No.
CJ: Ok.
GA: No.
CJ: And so when did you — how and, did you come to volunteer for the RAF and when was that?
GA: Well, when I was sixteen the war was declared, and I decided I had to leave school and do something for the war effort. So, I got — I joined Vickers Armstrong and I was based at Newbury which was a specialist Spitfire experimental factory. It was, we were working on the contra-rotating prop which later came on the Griffon engine, and the retractable tail wheel which gave you a knot or two extra. It was hard work. It was twelve hours a day or twelve hours a night six days or six nights a week. But one morning the air raid siren went which was very unusual for a sleepy country town and we all trooped to what they laughingly called an air raid shelter. And I looked out and I saw the Heinkels coming very low to get rid of this very important Spitfire factory. But they missed for some reason, I don’t know how and they bombed a school nearby and killed a lot of children. So next day I went to Newbury Recruiting Centre and said I was an engineer and I wanted to join the RAF as an engineer. And he said, ‘Where do you want to? Where do you work?’, and I said , ‘Vickers Armstrong’. He said, ‘We can’t take you then,’ he said, ‘You’re a reserved occupation.’ And I said, ‘Is there no way I can get into the air force?’ He said, ‘Well, there’s two things you can do. You become an artificer on a submarine or aircrew.’ Well, it took me about a microsecond deciding I wasn’t going on submarines but I quite liked the idea of aircrew. I hadn’t thought about it before, but I said, ‘Yes. I’ll become aircrew’, and that was how I joined up.
CJ: And so did you go — so that was at age sixteen. So —
GA: No. This was, I was seventeen and a half by this stage.
CJ: Right. So you actually went straight into the RAF or you had to wait until eighteen?
GA: No. I had to wait a few months. About three months I waited. Yeah.
CJ: And where did you start your training?
GA: I went, well, we started at aircrew, ACRC London, St Johns Wood. And then I went to Bridgnorth for ITW.
CJ: Sorry. ITW?
GA: That’s your square bashing thing. Initial Training Wing I think it means. Yeah. And then I went to Madley in Hertfordshire.
CJ: And what was the training you were carrying out there?
GA: Oh. I trained as a wireless operator. Yeah.
CJ: And how long was that training then before you went to an operational squadron?
GA: About a year. Yeah. And then after that I went to AFU which is another training thing, and then to OTU where you all crewed up. And this, I crewed up and was sent to a New Zealand squadron.
CJ: And how were the crews made up?
GA: There was one, two — four New Zealanders and three English.
CJ: So , how come the English were in a New Zealand squadron?
GA: The New Zealanders just didn’t have enough to fill the posts. And they had the gunners and a lot of the pilots but the rest they couldn’t fill.
CJ: And how was the, your crew made up? Did you choose each other or were you allocated to a crew?
GA: Well, it’s, it’s hard to tell. It’s — OTUs are very strange places. There’s one mess, one bar. You talk to people. You judge people and in my case I got into a very big poker game and after the poker game we decided that we ought to stay together.
CJ: And so did you train together as a crew before you went on operations?
GA: Oh yes. Yes. Quite a crew. Then we went to — we trained on Wellingtons first of all. Then we changed to Stirlings. And fortunately we didn’t do any damage in Stirlings because they changed us to Lancasters at the last minute. And I did thirty one operations. I did one extra you see.
CJ: So, the operations started when? Was it the beginning of —
GA: ’44.
CJ: ’44. Right.
GA: Yeah.
CJ: Ok.
GA: Yeah.
CJ: So the — and when you were going on operations how, how were you told and how did you prepare for it and what was the routine?
GA: Well, there was a thing called a Battle Order which was a sheet of paper. You got up in the morning. You looked at the Battle Order to see if you were on it. You could either — because there were a lot of daylights in 3 Group I was in, so it was either a daylight that day or one that night.
CJ: And how did you — how did the crew prepare the aircraft, and how did you get your information about the target and the route and so on?
GA: Well, you had a briefing. We were all in one room and the, all the various people — the met people, the bombing people and all the rest of them told you where the target was. What the ack-ack’s likely to be, what the fighters are likely to be, and the navigators got their winds and the wireless operators got their secret codes, and everybody got their information they needed. Then if it was a daylight you usually had lunch or you may have gone off an hour later. If it was a night one you tried to get some rest and then you always had the, the egg and bacon before you flew and away you went.
CJ: So, you say you did thirty-one operations.
GA: I did.
CJ: But a tour was usually thirty.
GA: Thirty. Yeah. I had to go with another crew and they were brand new. The target was Munich which they never found, and they killed themselves on the next op.
CJ: And how did the crews pass time between operations?
GA: Well, if we were free at a weekend we’d go to a pub and then go to a dance. Or if you were in the mess I suppose you had a drink and it [pause] you needed a lot of rest. That was the thing. Yeah.
CJ: And what was the feeling amongst the crew when you were going on an operation? Did you have to put worries aside and concentrate on the job?
GA: Yeah. I can’t say that [pause] — you hear so much about strain and worry and all the rest of it. I can’t say we experienced that. I think that we knew there was a job to be done and the sooner we got it over the better. We knew the odds. Four to one that we wouldn’t come back. We were aware of that and we got on with the job.
CJ: And what were the typical targets that you were on operations against?
GA: Oh, German.
CJ: And bombloads?
GA: Oh, we usually, I looked the other day and there was a lot of marshalling yards but I — we went on the famous Dresden raid and Chemnitz the following night. We did our last op which was, the last op’s always frightening and we thought it was going to be a doddle because it was gardening which means mine laying. But we were caught two flak ships, and when we got back we had thirty eight holes in the fuselage.
CJ: So, did the aircraft systems suffer any damage?
GA: No. No.
CJ: The hydraulics. No?
GA: No. We didn’t. We had another incident on a daylight when we were hit and we lost an engine. And of course we were in formation but all the formation went because they were faster than us and there were American fighters overhead that were supposed to protect us but they didn’t. They went too. So, we were all alone in daylight over Germany but we got away with that as well.
CJ: And are there any other raids you particularly remember? Any operations?
GA: We went to Wesel when they were crossing the Rhine and we used to bomb on a specialist radar called GH which was very accurate. And we got a letter from the Guards. We didn’t see the ground at all. We bombed on the GH. And we got a letter from a Guards officer thanking us for our accurate bombing and that. And another one was Saarbrücken. We saw lots of motor boats leaving the island as we bombed. We didn’t, but some of them went down and strafed them.
CJ: And I think — sorry, on operations what was the procedure then if you were attacked by a fighter?
GA: Well, you corkscrewed. We actually shot a Focke Wulf down. You dived and rolled and then you climbed and rolled the other way. I picked up the — they had a thing called Fishpond which was a radar which worked off the H2S and you could see any fighters on there. And I picked up a fighter and the gunners shot it down.
CJ: And I think your last raid was shortly before VE-Day. Do you remember what happened on VE-Day? What everybody’s feelings were?
GA: I was on leave, and I sent a telegram to the squadrons saying that, no I wasn’t on the squadron then, I was on Bomber Command Instructor School. I sent a telegram saying I wouldn’t be returning that day [laughs] Received a telegram back saying, ‘Fine.’
CJ: So, lots of celebrations.
GA: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CJ: And where were you posted after VE day? Did you continue with the squadron?
GA: No. No. I went, first of all I went to Bomber Command Instructor’s School and then I was made Commanding Officer of a signaller’s unit. And while I was there we received a notice saying that BOAC was starting up and they wanted crews to be seconded. And they said only those with a first class CO’s reference would get it. So, I applied and I hoped they didn’t notice the applicant and the CO had [laughs] had the same signature. And I was accepted so I joined BOAC for a while. Didn’t like it, and when I was demobbed I left BOAC and I joined a firm called Airwork Limited.
CJ: At BOAC what aircraft were you flying?
GA: Yorks.
CJ: And what routes?
GA: Yorks. From Hurn to Africa. Yeah.
CJ: Wow.
GA: And then I started training, pilot training then and I got my commercial pilot’s licence. And after that I flew right for many many years as a pilot.
CJ: And, again what aircraft were you flying and what routes were you on?
GA: Well, I flew Ambassadors. I flew Britannias. I flew Viscounts. I had about twenty different aircraft I flew and the very Ambassador that I flew is on show at Duxford. The very one. And then I came down here and flew DC4s for Invicta Airways.
CJ: And did you have a favourite amongst all those aircraft types?
GA: Oh yes. I loved the Britannia. Yeah. A beautiful aeroplane. Yes. Yeah.
CJ: So, why particularly the Britannia?
GA: It’s hard to tell. It was, it was a big prop jet and it was very responsive. Lovely to fly. And you could go at thirty thousand feet for twelve hours, you know and, you know with two hundred people on board, and it was a beautiful aeroplane.
CJ: Right. And when did you stop flying?
GA: Well, in about — I can’t remember. About ’70 I suppose I had a routine medical and they found that I had type 2 diabetes so I lost my licence. If I’d have got it now I wouldn’t have lost it because it’s not a failure anymore but it was then, and so I had to stop flying.
CJ: Oh.
GA: Yeah.
CJ: I’m going to step back a bit because I believe we’ve missed 622 Squadron.
GA: Well, 622. When I flew for Airwork the RAF couldn’t cope with trooping and all the rest of it, so they asked Airwork to form an auxiliary squadron which was 622. And we had Valettas and we took part in the Suez Campaign. That was 622.
CJ: Ok. Thank you. And after the war were you able to keep in touch with any of your crew? Did you have any reunions or —
GA: Yes. Yes. I, the navigator and I were very close. The engineer went to America. All the rest of them went home but they’ve all died except Buzz Spillman. But I kept in touch with him up ‘til last year. But he’s getting dementia now so we’ve stopped.
CJ: And did you have, were there any squadron reunions organised?
GA: Well, they were all in New Zealand. What — it was strange. The navigator and I did a caravan holiday because we wanted to visit the old Mepal where we were based. And we went there and they said, ‘Are you coming down for the reunion next week?’ And we said, ‘What reunion?’ They said, ‘75.’ That was a hell of a coincidence but unfortunately neither of us could do it, you see. So —
CJ: And do you have any feelings about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
GA: I’m disgusted the way it was treated after the war. Yeah. To get [pause] recent I was very fortunate. When they gave out the clasp, I was one of the twenty that was invited to Downing Street to be given it to by the Prime Minister. And that was nice but to have that nasty little clasp instead of a medal all those years later was, was very, very upsetting. Yeah.
CJ: And have you been to the Memorial at Green Park?
GA: Yeah. I have. Several times. Yeah. Yeah.
CJ: Were you, were you invited to the opening?
GA: I was there.
CJ: The unveiling.
GA: I was there. Yes.
CJ: So did you manage to meet any dignitaries?
GA: No. I met a couple of New Zealanders that came over for it. But yeah it was a lovely day.
CJ: Ok. Well, we’re holding this interview at the Spitfire Memorial Museum at Manston where I think you’re a volunteer. Would you like to tell us how you became involved with that?
GA: Well, some years ago I wanted something to do and I’d always been interested in the museum. I’d visited it for years. And I said I’d like to become a volunteer and so recently I’ve been made a trustee and my job is to get the money together because we want a Spitfire simulator. And my job is to get the money together and to date I’ve got, within a few weeks this, I’ve got five thousand three hundred pounds. It’s not enough but it’s a big start for it, and we visited other simulators to see what they were like and what we should get. And the cockpit’s arriving on Monday so we’re getting there.
CJ: And what’s the, what sort of questions and comments do you get when you have school trips here?
GA: Oh, they ask all sorts of things. ‘What was it like?’ is the one which you can never answer [laughs] You know, you get asked everything and I like the school kids coming. I had, I had the party of Dutch and English last Saturday come which I took around, and I go out to schools and they come here.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today and for giving us this interview.
GA: That’s a pleasure.
CJ: That’s a great insight. Thank you very much.
GA: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gerald Joseph Abrahams
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AAbrahamsGJ170617
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Pending review
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00:19:02 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Gerald Abrahams was sixteen when war was declared. He volunteered for the RAF the day after the Armstrong Vickers factory where he worked was targeted by the Luftwaffe who bombed the local school resulting in the deaths of many children. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. He and his crewmates were very aware of the poor odds of survival. On their last operation they came under fire from an anti-aircraft fire ship and found on return to base that there were thirty-eight holes in the fuselage. Gerald continued flying after the war and ultimately became a commercial pilot. He flew about twenty different aircraft including Yorks, Britannias, Viscounts and DC4s.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
622 Squadron
75 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
Fw 190
Gee
Lancaster
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
RAF Mepal
Spitfire
training
wireless operator
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/726/10726/PBridgesCH1701.2.jpg
8240dd1ff09882d4b4866a93efc69914
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/726/10726/ABridgesCH171013.2.mp3
444cd10fe0ae2456ea567945abe0a2f7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bridges, Cyril Henry
C H Bridges
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cecil Bridges (b. 1922, 1654795, 183040 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 115 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Bridges, CH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Cyril Bridges today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Cyril’s home in Ramsgate, Kent and it is Friday, the Thirteenth of October 2017. Well, thank you Cyril for agreeing to talk to me today, perhaps we could start with your story and if you could tell us please where and when you were born and what your family background was.
CHB: Well, I’d be pleased to do this, I, my name is Cyril Henry Bridges and I was born in Ramsgate and my father and my mother, my father was a very brave man, he served in the First World War, he was a deep sea fisherman had a [unclear] in Hull in Grimsby and he signed, I got records of his signature on a parchment when he took his indentures brought up apparently in a [unclear] work home, he and his two brothers were then apprentice to the sea, I’ve got this big manuscript, he’s joined it, his joining and at sixteen he decided he had enough of the sea and wanted to join the army when all the villagers were joining the army, so he absconded from the sea and went to France where he was wounded with a shot gun through his, top of his shoulder, and came out of the bottom of his shoulder and he eventually was sent on into, back to England after having treatment and he joined, there was this port at Richborough near Sandwich where they were shipping troops and ammunition and returning stuff that had been used from the battlefield and where he met my mother who was a waitress and she worked at, on munitions at this place at Richborough and they got together of course and he went back to, after the war, he went back to his Grimsby as where he lived and he corresponded with my mother and eventually he decided to become local. In the meantime, he joined this, the fishing fleet and got this document endorsed on the back that he had deserted his fishing trawler in the beginning and then they had, he’d come back to complete his apprenticeship. He did that and when he’d done that after a while he’d come to Ramsgate cause we had steam trawlers then, just the trawlers and he was able to join those and he married my mother, my mother and father had four of us, there was, I’ve got three sisters, I was the first born and I had three sisters born after that, at three year intervals. Anyway, I lost most of my family at the moment, father, mother and two of the, two of the sisters. Anyway, I joined, as a schoolboy, we had nothing, very poor, we were a very poor family, I’ve done a lot of errands for people to make up my father’s his shortfall on his money which was only thirty shillings a week, I then, I joined, collecting coke from the coke house to neighbours and working at a butchers, I was a butcher’s boy, then I got sort of a job that I could better myself, didn’t want to deliver meat anymore, I joined The Maypole, The Maypole was the sort of old fashioned superstores, there was Maypole, there was Home & Colonial, the international stores in perks, they all belonged to this one which I joined, which was The Maypole; I joined The Maypole for a few years, started bringing in a little bit of money my mother, prior to this my schooling had to end at fifteen, I was in Kent, class six, at St Lawrence School and then I then had to sort of go and earn some money to keep me in trousers, slippers, plimsolls etcetera. After a while I decided to join The Maypole as, when at first I started as a cellar boy looking after the cheeses and things like that and then after that on the counter serving butter and groceries. Then the next step I got was when the troops were being evacuated from Dunkirk and my father was on his way to Milford Haven, they used to spend three months fishing in local waters, the rest of the time in the western waters in the Irish Sea etcetera, he was on his way to Milford Haven or Padstow I think but I think Milford Haven was his [unclear], the place he got to in the end and having got there or before he got there they’d taken the boat as far as Dungeness and from Dungeness he was ordered to go to the beaches of Dunkirk to pick up soldiers. He did several trips, this I understand, to pick up soldiers and return them to Ramsgate and I recall the trains, the troops marching from the dock, the high street to the station and that was, [coughs] excuse me, that was that one little episode and my father then eventually got to Milford Haven, subsequently they were sunk by a Condor and they evacuated the boat which had beached in the Barry Islands, Lundy Island I mean, Lundy Island and they launched the boat to try to get away, get ashore with the boat, and he, the German come back and one sailor was, one fisherman was killed, he then spent a few days on this, on that island before they discovered that he, people discovered that he was on there. Anyway, he then got ashore and returned [unclear] in Milford Haven. My mother said to me, I don’t like your dad being on his own, she said, in these times cause by then two of my sisters were evacuated to the Midlands somewhere and the other sister, the younger sister was left with my mother and she said, I’ve got the [unclear], she said, and you go down and comfort your dad. Anyway, I got a transfer from The Maypole to The Maypole in Milford Haven and after spending some time at Maypole, my father says, do you want a bit of a leg up? What sort of a job do you want now? He said, I said, well, I’d like to go on the docks, see what I can do in the war effort, because we constantly had the warships coming in there for repairs and the dock was Milford Haven, it was Peter Hancocks, I was then there [unclear] and was still sending money home for mum and I was a poor kid really but I wanted to make a name for myself and I got fed up with doing mundane jobs for the dock, so I volunteered for the navy. I had a letter back saying that they weren’t recruiting and in any case I was stuck in a job that I couldn’t leave, so I said, what could I leave? They said, you could join the Air Force, they are looking for crews, [coughs] excuse me, I then, I then got a stop with this on the docks, as a shipwright apprentice, and after a bit of that, of boats going back in, being repaired, I thought, got a bit, just got, just going to be, I thought, better be doing a bit for the service if I can, so I decided to join the Air Force. I joined in the Air Force on Swansea, my first posting was, first place I got the uniform, or part of it, was Penarth, I joined a train at Penarth and it got underway and I thought I get a go on it, was issued with the tropical gear, and I thought, well, I’m going to, overseas, so the train travelled by night and at daytime was pulled into a station and in the end we ended up at Blackpool, so I’ve done my share of square-bashing at Blackpool and then I was transferred then down to a place in [unclear] Wales which was, I don’t know the name but, I’m sure, I can’t remember the name, it was near Cardiff anyway and that was for introduction to flight engineer, we worked with [unclear] hat, then I done that course and then I went on to the squadron and then I started servicing Spitfires, that was in Andover, and after that I was sent to at Cosford, where I’d done a flight engineer’s course at Cosford but that’s near Wolverhampton and then after that I went on, back on the squadron again and started working, went back then to a place called Innsworth which was in Gloucester where I had to choose what I wanted, they wanted me as a fitter or as a rigger but I had no choice but they said, oh, you got to go as a flight engineer, so then I went to Innsworth as a flight engineer and having completed my ops, I went to, transferred to a squadron which was, it was 115 Squadron. I got a notice sent to report to squadron and having reported there within a short time, I was booking into my flight sergeant’s building or room and he showed me that I was on that night, that was the first day I joined the squadron, and he said, I said, oh, that’s good, that’s what I’ve been training to do, so then he said, you won’t like what I said, I said, he said, do you want the good news or the bad news? I said, oh, I want the good news, he said, well, you’ll be on ops tonight, said, the bad news? You’re going as a spare flight engineer. Engineer’s gone sick on me and I put you in as a replacement. That was to Schweinfurt. And it was with a chappie, with a Canadian pilot, and it was a successful trip and it was a long trip and we’d come back all the better for it. In the meantime, I heard that my pilot had already, on the night I was doing the Schweinfurt trip, he was going as the second dickey to get used to the bombing. After that, I, well, I don’t, I just done what I was told and completed the tour. I’ll tell you a bit more about that later.
CJ: So, could you tell us, as a flight engineer please, what your responsibilities were? How you’d prepare for an operation and what you actually did during the operation?
CHB: Yes, what we did when we went to the mess and saw that we were on ops, we were never told, told where we were going by a map on the wall, marked with blue and red, comings and goings, what was here and what was there in a way of navigation, lights, the searchlights, and fighter areas that should be avoided. You go into the room where they are doing the, they give you a “gee-up” course with the CO and then the navigator, navigator officer does his bit, tell you all about what to avoid and what not to, you sit on a row of seats with your crew of seven and you all get a, one big bag with seven little bags in it so you filled your little bag and it went into the one big bag, that was for safekeeping, was made sure you took, nothing with you in a way you could be identified, apart from the medals you wore around your neck. What we get as an engineer, when I [unclear] in the mornings before we went to the assembly, they told us that we were on and I used to go up to my aircraft and go round the aircraft and check everything, checked with the groundcrew what needed to be done, what they felt was needed treatment, and normally the groundcrew was the same groundcrew that served you all the time, you got to know him, and he [unclear] to tell you any difference, any differences that [unclear] or any repairs that they had done in the meantime. I used to check, the ailerons, checked the pitot, schecked the tyres, checked that we had, on board we had the fire extinguishers, checked that we got an axe and generally checked the engines, but mostly came from the fitters on the ground to tell you the state of your aircraft. They made an awful sacrifice in doing this because the job was never ending and there was always repairing or checking. Anyway you got quite used to your crew when you went to the assembly in the evening, you were told then where you were going and it was all mapped out on the board, you weren’t allowed to leave billets and it was just a question of being available with the rest of the crew, the crew of course slept together, some were talkative, some did talk, some didn’t talk, but it’s just the question of getting in the aircraft and the engineer then, he’d already checked the fuel that was going aboard, he already checked how much it was and he used to put, check that the engines, [coughs] excuse me, engines were in good nick and after I’d satisfied that the Perspex in the windows and the door closed properly and one or two other things, he went back to billet and didn’t speak to anybody, just wrote a little note to your family and then, when you went out on the runway, to go at night time or in the early evening, you [unclear] up the crew, you make sure you got fuel in the body, two tanks in the body and in the case of the Lancaster, [coughs] excuse me, there’s two in just outside the fuselage, make sure it was in the right, you made sure you, when you took off, you took off with the inner tank, which had the most fuel in it, you took off with that and then you switched to the other, if you were in the air and one was punctured, you switched to that tank to empty it before it ran away. When you got out on to the runway I’d already, when I walked out to the aircraft again, checked that [unclear], the cover was off the pitot head, cause that was covered, that was and checked that everything was [unclear] in the morning and there we go on the end, we taxied to the end of the runway and gradually took off. I took off with both hands on the throttles, assisted by the pilot giving a nod, and I go to, [coughs] excuse me, go through the aircraft, the checks before we took off you go through the engine checks, run them up and test the magnetos and carburettors and things like that, got both my hands on the throttles, the pilot had already run down the fairway with it and I took over from him because we had to go to full boost, so I pushed them through the full boost, got the aircraft half way with the load and got to circle the aerodrome and I just throttled back to running throttle and it seems, when you are waiting for the time to start our bombing run. Well, we took off and I had a spare, I was sitting on a reversible seat, I could change it from looking out the front where I, where all my buttons were and a lot of [unclear] also on the right hand side of the fuselage, which was of course the starboard side, and I had gauges and throttles there so I could never [unclear] static is that the view rolled over. Anyway we then took off, the navigator giving the route where we going and we never, in our aircraft, we never said anything to anybody unless there was something to be said, eyes everywhere and you had to report anything that was heading your way but flying was another thing, it’s odd experience, cause when you took off, you got up to top speed and of course the undercarriage, you lifted the undercarriage up, you lifted the undercarriage up, and on the Lancaster the rear wheel was fixed but on the Stirling of course it was retractable, well you had to go back and check that it was up and locked, so, didn’t have to do that on the Stirling, on the Lanc. Anyway we, well, I think it’s another, I think, I am going another way now, did you [unclear] want me to
CJ: Perhaps you could tell us what it was you were as an engineer you were doing during the flight? I presume you were checking engines settings and fuel use.
CHB: Yes. One had to as engineer, we had to fill a form in, and rank the periods and that we [unclear] that we’d have enough petrol and done an awful lot of calculation as well we, we had instruments but we didn’t depend solely on the instruments, we had to do stuff mechanical [coughs], anyway, that, in the flight we said nothing to nobody, as I say, nobody talked to anybody, there was one particular, do you want me to go through into, the one particular and bombing trip which we had of the thirty or twenty nine trips we had done, the most hairy was the one that we was on the Stirling, and it was quite early in the days of joining the squadron, we went on a diversion to try to force somebody I don’t know who but I know we never got informed but we then tried to land at our base, our base was fogged up, we couldn’t get into our base, so we had to fly on to Downham Market by then from there to and it wasn’t as bad as we were expected from our own aerodrome so we, we went to land and I’d done these usual checks with the pilot and we had a [unclear] to tell to check things and I used to make sure that we was in the correct m gear as opposed to s gear cause there was two gears over your head, make sure that the thirty degrees of flap so that we could land, I went all through the checks and the undercarriage, [unclear] as I said, in the, in the other aircraft, we had to go back and check that the rear wheel was up and locked or down and locked, whichever, which way we go, up or down. Anyway we went to Downham Market and the first thing we did, we flew along the runway which we thought was the runway but it was a roadway that ran parallel with the runway and I had to cut the engine off, the starboard outer, I think it was the starboard outer, anyway it was playing up so I put it into no motive and with no motive, the propeller stopped and we went round again, the pilot on three wheels, on three engines, went round correctly into the fog very fast I had to, while we, when we, he said we are going to land and I had to check that the, I checked that the wheels were down and thirty degrees of flap and full flap but when you get it down, what I said to him, I think we are not on the runway, we’re on a roadway, [coughs] he said, I’ll go round, so we went round and ideally pulled the undercarriage up, pulled the flaps up and adjusted the engines, we went round again and I don’t know if it was the second or third time of trying, he turned on the dead engine and the aircraft just slid along and hit the ground and he was an Australian pilot and he got all of us clear and he was the only one that was barely injured but he never flew Lancasters, never flew Stirlings again ever. They sent him to the Middle East on canvas twin engine jobs, [coughs] I since been, a word [unclear] lucky to have a word with the pilot later years and he apologised for the and he said, I nearly killed you, I nearly killed all of you, I said, no, you didn’t, you saved all of us, he was the only one who really suffered from it but when you, when you were flying, went full boost, get off on the runway which just staggered off sometimes and then you sort of back to about 120 or whatever you did, the navigator determined what you needed to get to the target on time. We got then into a circuit to gain height and before you set off to the target, so the time to set off was fixed, so you might have done one turn or two turns, two or three turnings on your airport to gain a bit of height, cause you had to get to, get over the target by eighteen thousand feet else they’d shoot you down so you made a stab to get to the coast, get over the coast, then you, the next one is the, get over the enemy coast and you get up to whatever the bombing, bombing height got to be. [unclear] Aircraft, some were good, some were bad, some you couldn’t make it was like hitting a ceiling, tried to get higher than the aircraft, anyway the rest of, target [coughs] sorry got the lack of oxygen [laughs] anyway we, then, when you get to flying at night time, all you feel is the air, your comrades are there cause the aircraft, it’s the back lash of another Lancaster and got every eyes peeled to see what’s about, you couldn’t see much but you could see the Jerry if they come on you, anyway they, everybody had their eyes peeled to what, you had to see what aircraft were around us, and you were always able to [unclear] when one stirred, one Lanc there and a Lanc there and a Halifax here and a Halifax there, and you carried on to your bombing, on to your bombing run, and then it’s up the doors to keep us steady on one course, that was up to the, up to the bomb aimer, who was selecting the target, and then, we keep as steady as we possibly can, everybody with their eyes out, but aircraft cutting across in front of you, and underneath you, a lot I should think were [unclear] throwing bombs flying underneath, but you got on the target then you got out as fast as you possibly could, you got into a circuit, come back on track again, and you did it all over again the next day, until you completed your tour.
CJ: So, how did the crew manage to keep the aircraft straight and level if you’re flying through anti-aircraft fire?
CHB: Well you ignored the anti-aircraft fire because there’s nothing you can do about it and as regards the aircraft flying with you, there’s nothing you can do about it them either, providing they all held their breath, if you like, the pilot [unclear], out the [unclear] if you like, done the correct thing, and the pilot if you had a good pilot, which I had, best pilot in the world, he was an elderly man but a very, very good pilot, I owe my life to him and only had one bad incident that when, my life was saved by the bomb aimer, we’d gone down over the target, and he’d done his work and he got up, he looked up and he saw that I was lying on the floor of the aircraft and he come over and put the oxygen mask on me again, I was right as ninepins after that, the only bad incident I had [coughs]. All the bombing trips were all different, you couldn’t say one was the same as another, if you got a long trip to Friedrichshafen or somewhere long, it was just mundane but if you went to the Ruhr, you’d do it there in no time and there and back, the trouble with the Ruhr is that they were so gallantly manned by the Germans who would let nothing through and if you get the odd German captured the bomber flying in your lane, the detail in the instruction to his fitters, his fighters and that was the thing that I don’t know. You don’t know how you get through it, you just get through it, you just sort of fingers crossed, nothing you can do about it, if you [unclear], we had several incidents when the bombers were on your tail, the fighter was on your tail, and you have the corkscrews to deal with, you know that he is faster than you are and that sometime someone has got to give away [unclear] the fighter, you either go to his right and down or left and down and then you had a great chance of undergoing him because you were doing, you started doing a corkscrew then on your downstroke you had a chance to get at him and on the upstroke you had another chance to get at him and if he, if you tackled them they went, they had so much to pick, so much to choose, that if you started, you just showed him that you were aware that he was there, he would leave you alone and that’s what we found, was the best thing to do but we did keep straight and level so that we get a photograph of what we just done and in the latter part of course when you the Pathfinders, their chaps in Mosquitoes at zero feet telling you well now bomb the red, then bomb the, now bomb the green and you straight knew all the time where you wanted the bombers to fall over the cities and they were very fine people, in fact all the boys were good, lost too many of them, didn’t we? I think that’s the [unclear] all I can remember.
CJ: Then did you ever discuss between you what you might do if you were shot down and got out of your aircraft? Did you have escape equipment with you?
CHB: Yes, we had a dinghy in the wing, when we were at sea, we had, a bit of a problem in as much as we lost a few people. We lost the mid upper gunner, that left us while we were being attacked, he thought we wouldn’t going to make it, so he left, he leapt out of the door, but he survived the parachute, apparently, I never saw him after, nobody could ever find him after, apart from a NAAFI girl that says he got down safely and then you had, I had certain things that I couldn’t do, they limited what a parachute couldn’t do when you’re flying, you hear tales of people getting out on the wing and all that sort of thing, in my opinion that was not possible. I, at one time, there were [unclear] the rods, the aileron rods within the aircraft had to try and turn them together that’s a bit of a [unclear] didn’t’ get [unclear] but you get used to it, it’s something that you take it for, you don’t take it as for granted, you are on the alert all the time, that never leaves you but I didn’t worry too much about whether I was going to make it or not. I was with a band of boys and it’s something we had to do, it’s as simple as that, but we couldn’t do an awful lot when we was in the air, I at one stage there when this particular chap that bailed out, we’d been chased by Germans to a [unclear], and we were, do you use that petrol? Because you didn’t get too much extra petrol, and we eventually thought, we started to, thought about it a bit, the engine [unclear], the engine got out of control the engines which I had to fill out and we started to stagger home and we were very short in petrol and I said to the pilot, we want to get down as soon as we can, he said, well, we don’t want to be taken as prisoners, no, not that, I said, I’d rather jump in the Channel, so we did that and landed at Manston. We got off, were serviced, I went to the engine and borrowed four bikes which got to our mother who said to me, what are you doing in all that Air Force gear? I said, well, we just come back from a place, she was taken by surprise I must admit, but Manston was a lovely, lovely runway there, we landed on that but we had crosswind, we took off crosswind when we joined our squadron the next day but no, I had a good run really, I got [unclear] wonderful, this particular occasion I was talking about was this chappie bailing out, we got into trouble and when we was clear that this fighter or two fighters there we got away from them, our pilot was a clever pilot, clever, clever, he, we got, he got, the little bit of, pressure off us, and he said, go back and see what you can do, so I went back and I saw the rear gunner was on his way up to me, so I said, what’s the matter? He said, I thought you would have left them, he said, that’s what the mid upper gunner must have thought, I said, well, get back in your turret and see, ok, was nothing wrong, anyway as I say, that was the mid upper went out. Another time when we were chased about all over Germany and the navigator was asked, this was a different navigator, he was asked to give us a course home, so he said, I can’t find a course, you’ve lost me, he said, it was all over Germany, you lost me, so the pilot said to me, go and give him a map, fine, so I got a map, and we come back via Manston aerodrome that was the time, we landed after being attacked but the another occasion was so that navigator was lost. When we were landed he was in trouble, he was just passed off, I never saw him again. Then the rear gunner, he tells me he had a fighter in his sights and he started to take the fighter and he got a jam with his belt, his ammunition belt, so he took off his gloves and it stuck to the gun and he got frostbite so we lost him, he went to another squadron and after being hospitalised he went to another squadron and completed a tour of ops with them. He’s still about, I’m in contact with him, but he’s the only one, I lost the wireless operator which was the same man we had all the time, the navigator was changed, we had two navigators besides the one we started to, and we had two pilots when we started to, bomb aimer, he’s the same bomb aimer, the pilot and the navigator were both awarded the DFC, and the bomb aimer and myself were given the ranks of officers. I tell you it was our reward to, it was good, was interesting. After that, if you want me to go on after that? We were sent to, we were sent to Scotland for a break which I enjoyed very much. After that I went to Farnborough for [unclear] and [unclear], we picked up Wing Commander Winfield and used to pick him up out of, by Anson, we got an Anson converted with a winch and used to dive to [unclear] the men on the ground, sort of goal post to sit between and we had an arrester hook sort of what the navy had on their fighters when they can land on airship (aircraft carriers), boats but used to pick him, pick this chappy up him up [unclear] dinghy and off land. I was based then at White Waltham so we used to travel between White Waltham and the base where the aircraft was.
CJ: So, this was a new method for rescuing airmen who were downed, is that it?
CHB: That’s right. It was, they then they brought in the helicopter then. So we was, they discontinued then and then they sent me to Hereford to the admin school, didn’t like it very much, it’s where the, I think it’s an army unit that’s trained airborne or something at Hereford and I’d done a bit there but halfway through the course, they said to me, we want you to go and up to Dishforth and talk about going onto Yorks. So we done this short training course there at Dishforth and two other places in Scotland which were close to each other and then we went, then I was transferred to Ossington where I spent a very good part of my life and we were on Yorks training, this was after the war, we were training ex pilots, ex RAF pilots getting them ready, I think, for Civvy Street and I used to electrics and carburation and fly as flight engineer on Yorks and done that for a long time and then I sent to, when I finished, I was sent to Manston as currency officer, few places in between but I can’t remember for the moment.
CJ: So then were you demobbed after that?
CHB: I was demobbed after Manston. Yes, that was in ’46.
CJ: What did you do then?
CHB: Then I enjoyed my freedom for a bit and met the ladies of course. I then had about a fortnight off I think and a man said to me who I found, I was in the pub one night and a man come up to me and he said, I see you’re in uniform, I said, yes, he said, well, I’ve got a business in London, I’m moving down to the coast, would you like to come and work for me? So I said, well, what do you do? He said, well, I am an engineer for a die sinking company PDS tools and there were two companies he owned and he said, we are bringing these, all their equipment down from London, setting it up in an old skating rink in Thanet, so he said, I’d like you to be there when they bring their machines down and install them, so these machines, shaping machines and mills and lathes and capstans and all sorts of the machinery that had come down and was installed in this old skating rink and I, he said, well, being as you done that, work for me, I’d like you to make progress, engineer in charge of progress and I said, oh, that’s fine. So I got it up on his feet, done very well, the owner of the firm was a chap by the name of Gutteridge, Mr Gutteridge and he was then associated with Haffenden, rubber people that made hats and rubber caps, swim caps and mats and rubber mats and electric plugs and hot water bottles and they were in Sandwich and they employed a couple of thousand people and I went in and we started engineer work, we moved from, we moved from the skating rink and moved to Sandwich, moved with all our equipment into Sandwich, so we operated then under W. W. Haffenden which were the people that owned the rubber works. We operated as their, as their tools, made their tools, made their hot water bottle tools, electric plugs, made all their tools, and also had a good clientele outside where we made other people’s tools as well so on the engineering side, we employed about fifty registered toolmakers and the light machinist toolmakers and I was there about thirty five years and I got myself up to director, this auxiliary Sandwich engineering and Haffenden Richborough I was on the board there, well, it wasn’t a board, it was a collective board, but the main owners of course were the real bees’ knees but I was there thirty five years and they said to me, we are going to make some changes on in the tool, we are going to do various bits and pieces and wondered if you wanted to stay in, see it through. I said, well, what’s the alternative? I leave, they said, yeah, you leave with our blessing, and with a salary introduced, that was I was sixty then, leave with a pay until you are sixty, next five years at sixty five, we can give you a golden handshake, and we will make it so that if you are ever called into work, a question to be asked we pay you thirty quid an hour, so anyway, I decided that I would take the money, and I was out of work for a week and I then went as a manager of another tool company, Steven Garlotty, I was there for about five years, then I had enough then, and that was all my work until I finished. I’m still here.
CJ: Coming back to the period after the war, did you encounter any bad feelings at all towards Bomber Command aircrew?
CHB: Yes, really, and they all stem from some chap in the, an MP, he was an MP for the West End in London and he, I’ve been reading the books, he put bosh on it, he wouldn’t have anything to do with the Air Force and it brought bad feelings towards the Air Force, they couldn’t [unclear] weren’t entitled to have a medal and [coughs] for the number of people we lost, I thought we would’ve been better treated but we weren’t, I’m trying to think of the man’s name but he was the one that stopped us getting medals and went to drag this down to bombing innocent people. I agree that bombing innocent people wasn’t the thing I liked doing but they [unclear] bombing [unclear] to kill me, it was a thing to do, we did the right thing, Germany was doing the wrong thing, taking people and gassing them and I was against that lot so it never come hard to me to dislike what had been done to that. I joined these things like Aircrew Europe and lucky I got the Aircrew Europe Star and the France Germany Star but you don’t wear the France Germany, you just have a clasp, you’ve got the Aircrew Europe, and I got on various committees locally from there, I never really done much and
CJ: And I believe you had an award from the French recently.
CHB: Yes, I did, I was lucky to be recognised by the President, then President of France, I always say it’s the Croix de Guerre, but unfortunately it wasn’t the Croix de Guerre, I don’t know what they called it now.
CJ: The Legion d’Honneur
CHB: That’s it, the Legion d’Honneur and I was very pleased to get it, we never did anything like that, I always got my [unclear] bit was in the First World War I’ve got all my Dad’s medals and his name and rank and his identification all along the rim of the medals that he’s got but just compare that to what the medals we’ve got, you can go in a shop and buy as many as you want without being asked what you want and we were never recognised and that always bothered me. They never gave the thoughts of the people that were killed, I think it was a hundred and twenty six flight engineers, and fifty two of them were dead, but I think, don’t quote me on the number, I don’t think that’s right
CJ: And did you join a squadron association, go to reunions?
CHB: Yes, the Aircrew Association has a, the local branch, I went there and also I went to the French one, the Normandy vets, I went to both associations, kept that going and of course I joined the museum in London, got a free life pass there
CJ: Is that the RAF Museum?
CHB: The RAF Museum, I belong to that. I belong there in Piccadilly, I’ve been a member there from when I left Haffenden’s and my wife was a member there too, but she has since passed away, but I still am a full member of the Piccadilly Club, I’ve only been there once in a lifetime I think. But apart from that I went merrily along and enjoyed my golf, never got it [unclear] but enjoyed it [laughs]. That’s about it I suppose.
CJ: Well, thank you very much indeed for speaking to us today.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Cyril Henry Bridges
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABridgesCH171013
PBridgesCH1701
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Pending review
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01:04:43 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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Cyril Henry Bridges was born in Ramsgate and served as a flight engineer in the RAF. He tells of his father, a deep-sea fisherman, who fought in the First World War and later helped evacuate troops from Dunkirk. Remembers his early life, taking on different jobs, as a butcher’s boy and working in a shop, to help his mother. After initially wanting to join the navy, he joined the RAF and trained at Penarth and Blackpool. After further training, he was posted to 115 Squadron. Remembers flying an operation to Schweinfurt as a spare flight engineer. Explains his role and duties as a flight engineer before take-off and landing and during operations and vividly describes the circumstances under which they were flying. After the war, he worked for a company making rubber mouldings and electronic accessories.
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Peter Schulze
Chris Johnson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Hampshire
Wales--Milford Haven
115 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
fuelling
RAF Farnborough
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/751/10750/PCookJH1701.1.jpg
81323cdafc31bb66e836e5b0ba2201ff
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/751/10750/ACookJH170118.2.mp3
85280a29406287aa006ef455c66449b1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cook, Joseph Henry
J H Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer (1925 - 2018, 1894875 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a n air gunner with 630 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joseph Cook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cook, JH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: We’re on. Ok. This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Joe Cook today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Joe’s home in Kent and it’s Wednesday 18th of January 2017. Thank you, Joe for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview are Vi Jarmin, Joe’s partner. Joe’s daughter Beverley Maltby and her husband Michael. So Joe, thanks very much for talking to us today. Perhaps you could start by telling us about your early life and where and when you were born and your family background.
JC: Very, very simple. I was born in Sidcup in Kent on the 2nd of June 1925. I’m, I’m living with my grandparents for a little while and my mother and father and then we moved. And we moved to Brockley and more or less orientated around Brockley. My early life. I went to school at Blackfen. And then of course I went to the, what do they call it? Basic school. Elementary school. And, and then I got a scholarship for going to Brockley Central School. Brockley Central School was a marvellous school because we took the Oxford General School Certificate and we took the London Chamber of Commerce Certificate of which I’m proud to say I got the Oxford Certificate and I got the forces of it with the London Chamber of Commerce with a Book Keeping Distinction. That was my basic education. Because of the background I was able to go straight into a job. And I went to, oh [pause] I went in to a solicitors I think it was. Something like that. I was only there a couple of days and it fizzled out. Something went wrong. I then ended up in Twentieth Century Fox Films. I found my own job because it paid twice the money that the others did. So, at Twentieth Century Fox Films I was working in the assistant, whatever, I forget what they call it now. Anyway, it was logging films and how much they would produce and etcetera. I was there until I went in the services. I met my first wife, my wife there and we were married obviously in 1945. I wouldn’t marry her until I finished flying because I said, ‘You can’t get married to a cinder.’ Because all aircrew got terribly burned. So therefore I married in 1945. 20th of October. And I produced eventually [laughs] a long time my daughter who is over there. And that is all I’ve produced because my wife had trouble with TB etcetera. So I wouldn’t let her have another child. My fault. I wouldn’t let her have another child. And I was married for forty six years. My partner over there God bless her heart. I’ve been with her for twenty five years. I’m sorry. And I’m still with her.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe. You were working at Twentieth Century Fox after leaving school. So how did you come to join the RAF and when was that?
JC: Well, after leaving school I was conned into the war because I was a fire watcher etcetera. And every night I had to sit up all night fire watching. And then, and what did I do then? How did I, you said how did I come to get in the Air Force? Well, it’s quite simple really. I didn’t want to go in the Army. Quite simple. But I always fancied flying. I wanted to fly. But I, at that time there was no vehicle to take me flying so I joined the RAF. Now, I had to volunteer for aircrew. As you know they were all volunteers. I volunteered and they accepted me straightaway because of my education. And I had no problem with that. My three days medical at Euston House went through ok. Fine. No problem. So there I am. I am sent to St John’s Wood, in the recently completed flats as, as a base. And I did my three weeks square bashing and knocking me into making me. They knocked you down so that you [pause] sort of thing was you’d clean your shoes. By the way aircrew always wore shoes. You’d clean your shoes and they were, oh you know you’d bone them and all the rest of it. And then the corporal would come in in the morning and inspect. ‘They’re bloody filthy your shoes. Get them cleaned.’ They, it was there to break you. Right. Then you want me to carry on now? From St John’s Wood I went up to Bridgnorth. Initial training. Which was square bashing and all sorts of funny things. From Bridgnorth I went to Bridlington where I did such things as Morse Code. I had to send and receive Morse Code at ten words a minute. Then Bridlington was a learning base for the, as I said Morse Code and other attributes for the Air Force. I then went from Bridlington. Remember that? Where did I go from Bridlington? Oh, I know. Bridgnorth. Not Bridgnorth. I can’t quite get it.
CJ: Was it Evanton?
JC: Huh?
CJ: Evanton in Scotland. Was that it?
JC: No. No. I went to Scotland for my AGS. I’m just trying to think where I went.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you did your basic training in Bridgnorth, Joe.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And then Bridlington.
JC: Yes.
CJ: So, how did the training go from there and how were you picked for a particular role?
JC: Well, I wasn’t, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. But what I wanted to do was kick Jerry up the rear. And the only way to do it was get in the Air Force and get flying. Well, as I say I went to 8 AGS near Evanton. I was trained as an AG. I was flying in Ansons and then, I always remember flying in the Anson. The first flight I ever made they lined us up. Sprogs. Right. There’s a few of us. Eight of us, I think. We were going to fly that morning. ‘Right. You. You. You and you,’ and then it came, ‘You.’ Me. They gave me a handle. And I looked at it and I said, ‘What’s it?’ He said, ‘Up on the wing.’ I had to get up on the wing. Put this handle in the socket and turn it around to start the engine [laughs] Oh dear. And of course once you got one going on an Anson you can get the other one going. But I was sliding about on the wing because it was frosty that morning. You know what Scotland’s like early morning.
CJ: So how did you come to be selected as an air gunner rather than any other role?
JC: Ah. That was at Euston House.
CJ: Ok.
JC: You were in front of a load of gold braid and he, he said to me, ‘Right. We’ve assessed you. You’ve got everything. We have decided that you will be pilot, navigator or bomb aimer.’ And I said to him, ‘I don’t want it.’ He looked at me. He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘I don’t want it. I want to kick Jerry up the rear,’ as I said. So, he said, ‘Well, we’re losing so many AGs.’ I said, ‘I’ll have it.’ So that’s how I became an air gunner. I had all the qualifications to be a pilot but I didn’t want it. And I said, ‘It will take at least nearly a year to train me as a pilot. It’s too late. The war will be over.’ That was the reason. And he looked at me, the groupie and he said, ‘You silly little sod,’ because at that rate they were losing them, losing them so rapid. Anyway, I decided that I would do that.
CJ: So you were training on Ansons in Scotland. And how long was the training for?
JC: Oh. I got up there in [pause] oh around about Christmas time. And then I was trained at D-Day. Now, I’ve got a little story I can tell you about that. I got my AG brevet. Very proud of it. Parade. Get your brevet. And then we were posted to Operational Training Unit, Silverstone. We got on the train but we didn’t go to Silverstone. The bloody thing kept, sorry it kept going and going and we ended up at Tarrant Rushton in Devon. When we got there they said, ‘You are not allowed to go outside the camp. You are confined to camp. You cannot write any letters. You cannot use the telephone. You cannot do anything.’ Everything hush hush. Of course, we didn’t know. We didn’t realise what was going on. They didn’t tell you, did they? They didn’t tell you anything. Why I was sitting on the train suddenly, oh stay on the train because you’re carrying on. And so therefore what we didn’t know was this, that it was about oh a few days, quite a few days before D-Day. Why were we sent to Tarrant Rushton? It was quite simple. This. They gathered together all the people who had just been, got their wings. Pilots and all the rest of it and they’d sent us to Tarrant Rushton and they sent us to fly clapped out bloody Stirlings. And they were clapped. And when we got there we said, ‘What’s all this? Why are we doing this?’ They said, ‘You’ll find out.’ Wouldn’t say a thing. They found, we found out alright because we had to load these Stirlings up with leaflets. Fly over to Calais. Drop them on Calais and Boulogne etcetera and we were chucking these bales of leaflets out and one bloke said to me, ‘What’s all this about? What are these leaflets saying?’ He said, ‘It’s in French.’ I said, ‘That’s alright. I’ll read it to you.’ And what it was saying, “Get out of Calais. Get out of Boulogne because we are invading and we are going to bomb like hell.” So please, Froggies get out. ‘Get out of Calais,’ etcetera. That’s what it was all about because you know as well as I do it was a spoof. Well, we were chucking these leaflets out and it counted as an op because we were going over, over enemy territory really. That was the first four. And chucking these leaflets out and on the way back of course this bloody old Stirling packed up. One engine packed up. And then we thought well blow this. Nursed it back over the peninsula. The Devon Peninsula. And then another one went. And on a Stirling no chance. Got to get out of it. Got to jump. Which I had to do. So I jumped out of it and come down on a tree. With a Land Girl with a pitch fork at the base of the tree to ram it in me. Wouldn’t believe that I was English. Got the, they sent, a lorry came around and there was the rest of the bods in it. And they took us to the farmhouse and obviously then to the station. But that, that was my initiation. That’s what D-Day was to me. Dropping leaflets for four days on Calais, Boulogne, Liege etcetera. So I had only just been trained. And it was so daft that when D-Day had been going for about a week or two we were posted and we were posted to the Operational Training Unit to be trained [laughs] You know. And went there and went on to Wellingtons. The old Wimpy. God bless her. And I did my training on that. We did cross countries. We did ten hour trips. Not ten hour trips. Eight hour trips etcetera. And I finished my OTU and how did we get crewed up? Easy. Big hangar. Type 2 hangar. Right. A hundred engineers. A hundred AGs, a hundred pilots all in this hangar and then the group captain gets up, gives a little speech and then says, ‘Right. Form yourselves into crews.’ He said, ‘Mingle amongst each other, walk around, pick who you think would be a good one.’ So I, I had a friend with me and I said to him, ‘It seems to me that the tall ones, the pilots, are bloody good. They seem to survive.’ So we looked for a tall pilot. And it happened to be a Canadian. And Mac, so we looked up at him and said, ‘Oi. You got two gunners?’ So he said, ‘No.’ ‘Do you want two?’ He said, ‘How good are you?’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I got eighty four percent on my passing out.’ He said, ‘Oh. I’ll have you.’ So, that’s how it was done. In this big hangar. Then you walked out of there and you were a crew and you were brothers together and just went through it all. You were so close. I can’t explain it. Closer than brothers. The sort of thing was we were booked for ops and then all of a sudden our engineer went sick and he went, turned around to the flight commander and said, ‘I’m not flying.’ He said, ‘No?’ ‘No. Mitch has gone sick. Won’t fly without him.’ ‘Oh. Alright,’ He said, ‘We’ll put a spare crew on.’ That’s how it was.
[recording paused]
CJ: So Joe, you tell me how you were all in a hangar together and sorted yourselves out as a six man crew. So where did you go from there?
JC: Well, this was done at Silverstone. Silverstone in [pause] where was it? I’ve forgotten the name of the county. Anyway, it was at Silverstone. The race track then as it was. And we were flying Wellingtons. As I said a six man crew because it didn’t have a mid-upper turret so you just, you carried the other bloke but you were the one in the turret. Then we, we did all the usual things. Training. Long trips. High level bombing. Gunnery. Etcetera etcetera. And finally you were posted to a squadron and — no. Sorry. Missed a bit. From Silverstone you went to Wigsley. Wigsley was a Conversion Unit. You went from two engines to four. To Wigsley, flying Stirlings. I hate the things. And then from Wigsley you went to a Lancaster Finishing School. And then and at that point we knew we were going on Lancasters. We dreaded the thought of going on Stirlings or Halifax. Halifaxes. So we went to Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston. All around Lincolnshire. And then from there we were posted to the squadron. And that’s when I went to East Kirkby. I did all my operations, well twenty six of them. I think, I don’t know. I think it was twenty six from East Kirkby. But I’d already done four from Tarrant Rushton so I’d done my thirty. We were now a fully-fledged crew on a squadron. And on my first trip we’re getting on to this are we? My first trip was the Dortmund Ems Canal. The dear old Dortmund Ems Canal. We used to come up time and time. As fast as they built it up we knocked it down. That was my first trip. You’ll find it in my diary that I wrote. Every time I came back from a trip I sat with pen and ink. Where is it? I sat with pen and ink and wrote down how I felt and all the rest of it. I can’t see it. Oh.
[pause]
JC: There it is. One diary. Now, there’s I’ve lost the other book so there’s only twenty trips in here. I don’t know where it went to. It’s the last one. Last twenty. As I said, Dortmund Ems Canal was five and a half hours. “I felt nervous but got on ok. Saw a Lanc go down and burst into flames in the ground. We did not get coned by tracer or searchlights. I felt pretty fatigued when we got back.” Now, I won’t go right through this because there is too much of it. Now, people say to me, ‘What were the fascinating ones that I did?’ Well, there weren’t really. There was only one target that I personally thought I’d got my lot and that was Politz. Now, Politz is an oil manufacturing conversion place near the Russian border. I went to Politz twice. The second time, and it was a long trip. Ten hours. The second time on the run up to bomb we were running up, steady, steady and all the rest of it and all of a sudden out, a bloody ME Messerschmitt 262 jet came for us and he was putting shells through the top of my turret. He didn’t, he missed us because I had already given Mac evasive action. And as you probably know once you’re attacked the tail gunner takes control of the aircraft and he has to do what he was told. And I gave him a corkscrew and we were lucky there. He went over the top. I’m watching this bloke and it was fifty nine degrees below zero that night. So I’m watching him and let him come in and then I went to open fire and all my four guns were frozen. The oil on the breech blocks, very thin bit of oil had frozen and not one breech block went forward so the guns didn’t fire. And I yelled out to Mac, I said, ‘I can’t fire. I can’t fire. The gun’s useless.’ And he said, ‘Oh. Oh. What’s he doing?’ I said, ‘He’s wheeling around. Wheeling around. He’s coming in for the kill now because he knows that we’re defenceless. My turret has no defensive fire.’ So, I said, ‘That’s it.’ And Mac said, ‘Right. Prepare to abandon aircraft.’ I can remember his words today. So I went to open my turret doors and they’d jammed. I thought. That’s it. This is it. I’m stuck in here. I’ve got an ME262 wheeling around, coming in for the kill. It’s my lot. This is death. This is what death is all about. And then all of a sudden there was a bloody great explosion. We were splattered with bits. What had happened the rear gunner and I didn’t even know the Lanc was there. He got him in his fuel tanks and up he went. And we were splattered with debris. And I yelled out to Mac, ‘Enemy aircraft destroyed. Enemy aircraft destroyed.’ These are my actual words because I can remember them as if it was yesterday. And he said. ‘Right. Resume stations.’ Thank Christ for that otherwise I’d still be up there. And that’s my worst trip. Politz. I had others. Now, in, in here you will see that Heimbach Dam. Even, we went to a dam to blow it up which we were a success at blowing up. In my diary I say, “ME109 sighted just before target. Focke Wulf 190 passed underneath at two hundred feet. Attacked another aircraft to starboard.” Then as we, once again we used bombs on this. Not the bouncing bomb. Heimbach Dam. We ran up to the dam and there was a bloke, well a kite further down. We were on the run up. And they’d got two blooming great guns on the ramparts and they were pointing at a set point of our, where would go in for a run up. So that bloke I said was ahead of us. They got him. Blew him to bits. I thought ooh. But they couldn’t reload the guns quick enough because they were a heavy gun. We went over the top. We dropped our bombs and I saw the dam go. I saw it break and go. We, we got a direct hit fortunately and it was well worth it to see that dam go. But then people would say, ‘Oh, you were a Dambuster.’ No. I was not. I was not a Dambuster. Yes, I went and blew a dam up yeah but that doesn’t make me a Dambuster. When you think of a Dambuster you think of 617 squadron and nothing else.
CJ: So what was it like on the station for — perhaps you can take us through when you knew when you were going on ops. What was the atmosphere like? And what sort of preparation did you do before you went out on a trip?
JC: Before you went out on a trip if you were billed for ops that night then you went to the crew room and your flight commander of each section like gunnery, like engineering, like w/ops etcetera. You were all [pause] what’s the word? You were, you were given all the, all the gen and all the griff and the big map on the wall and that was the first time that you knew where you were going. There’s a sequel to that because we never knew where we were going. Blooming ground staff did. Because we used to go up to the ground staff and say, ‘Oi. What’s the petrol load?’ And he’d turn around and he’d say, ‘Sixteen eighty.’ Oh, got a short trip tonight. Oh, lovely. But if he turned around and he said, ‘Twenty one fifty four.’ That’s two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel. That is a long trip. You’re going to be up there just over ten hours. And in the cold, I mean I below zero all the time virtually. Thirty below zero. But you wore an electrically heated suit. The trouble was typical of a lot of equipment your right hand would burn, your left hand would freeze. Your right foot would be [laughs] the same conditions sort of thing. And in the end you used to switch if off. But you had another suit under it. And under that you had silk underwear etcetera. And a naval white sweater. So it was just about tolerable. I never got frostbite fortunately but I had five pairs of gloves on. You’d wonder how I pulled the triggers but I did. It was the cold that used to get you. Now, when you look at the turret the one I used to fly in anyway, you will see that all the Perspex has been taken out. There’s nothing there. It’s to open air. Completely. Now, why did we do that? Simple. If you got a tiny mark on that Perspex, just a little mark or whatever you’d be there. So took all the Perspex out for clear vision and you were to open air.
CJ: And this was the mid-upper turret you were in.
JC: No. The rear gunner.
CJ: The rear. I beg your pardon.
JC: I had four Browning machine guns. Just to sequel that I had four Browning machine guns. I had five thousand rounds per gun. I had twenty thousand rounds of ammunition and I could only fire a few seconds. Otherwise they get red hot.
CJ: So you were saying about the briefings and when the curtain was pulled back —
JC: Yeah.
CJ: You knew where you were going.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Do I assume that some places were considered easier targets than others?
JC: Oh yes. Yeah. Because you sort of think the tape, the red tape would be going across the map and it would end at Chemnitz. And you’d hear the blokes go ahh. Or Berlin again. Because this friend of mine, Johnny Chatterton, he went to Berlin so many times that they gave him a season ticket. Oh dear.
CJ: So that, are there any other notable raids that you remember? Any notable trips?
JC: Any notable trips?
CJ: Trips that you went on that stood out there.
JC: Yes. There’s another one in here. I went to Rositz. Synthetic oil. I went to Politz. I went to a lot of them. Now, at Politz where I nearly copped my lot and I really did. Now, I’m saying there if I may just briefly read this, “Target Politz oil installation. Flak fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights. Some in target area and over Denmark. Fighters. Two JU88s seen over target. JU88 shot down and destroyed by us.” What really happened was that the JU88, he came up and I said to the skipper, ‘Whatever he does, you do.’ And if he, in other words if he dives you dive with him and keep him in the sights all the time. So mid-upper gunner and myself I raked the canopy. Killed the crew instantly. And that was it. Down she went.
CJ: Ok.
JC: That was a JU88, and that was at Politz.
CJ: So then you, you said you finished your thirtieth op with that squadron because you’d already done four before.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: So, how did it feel when you’d all done your thirtieth?
JC: Well, I can’t explain it because you see we were so used to expecting to die. You didn’t expect to come back. You didn’t expect to do thirty. You were elated. Yeah. Obviously you went in the mess and got a few sherbets down [laughs] Oh, what was I going to say? [pause] There’s little incidents that happened all the time. Such as crew bus. Two crews in the bus. The old crew bus. And it just started going around the perimeter track and one crew their bomb aimer more or less, I don’t know what he was doing. Ah. So he ran after the bus and tried to jump on it. He didn’t. He missed. Cracked his skull. That was it. And of course you’d the sequel of the egg. You know about the egg. Of course you do. When you came back from an op you got an egg. You didn’t get bacon. You got an egg. And it was looked forward to. ‘Cor, crikey I’ve got an egg tonight [laughs] you know, when you got back. But the jokey, jokey thing is that this actually happened. The bloke next to you and he says, ‘Eh mate,’ he said, ‘If you don’t get back tonight can I have your egg?’ And then another thing that happened which aircrew were very boisterous. One bloke went round the back of the servery and he pulled the string of the WAAF’s overall. Well, it was so hot in the mess the overall opened, didn’t it? And she’s leaning forward putting an egg with a slice. You can imagine can’t you. Plop. Now, the other thing concerning WAAFs was we were always playing tricks. One bloke had the brilliant idea he got a bit of wood square and in every hut there was an iron, oh what do you call it? Fire.
CJ: Stove.
JC: Stove. Yeah. So what does he do? He climbs up on to the roof. It was a flat roof for the WAAF quarters. He climbs up on the roof. He gets this bit of wood and puts it on the chimney and holds it down. Then he [laughs] after a few minutes the doors fly open and all the WAAFs come charging out in their underwear. And it was, it was funny you know because they’d got their civvy underwear on.
CJ: How did you feel Joe when you had, when you came back and there were empty tables?
JC: Well —
BM: He didn’t think about it.
JC: I didn’t think about it. I’ll give you an instance of it. Two crews to a hut virtually. Then two crews to a hut. You come back after an op. You’re dead tired. You’d had your egg. You’d gone up the road to the hut, get in the hut, get in the pit as we used to call bed and put your head down and you’d sleep. And then all of a sudden there’s a noise. Clank bang bang bong. You put your head up and there’s a whole bunch of SPs. You could always tell because of the arm bands. You’d look up and you’d say, ‘What the bloody hell are you doing?’ ‘Oh, won’t be long. Won’t be long, chiefy.’ That’s what a flight sergeant was called. ‘Won’t be long chiefy. Just taking the other crew’s gear out.’ This is 3 o’clock in the morning. ‘Well, what’s happened?’ ‘Oh. Well, they got the chop last night.’ Put your head down and go to sleep again.
CJ: So, you finished your thirty ops. And what did you do after that? After you’d over your sherbets.
JC: Well, I wanted a job obviously. I applied to Cossor to Lissen, all, all the old radio manufacturers because of, that’s another thing you didn’t know. I was a radio amateur as well and I had a radio amateur’s licence. So I applied and I thought I’d be in there. Didn’t want to know. ‘Sorry. Can’t give you the job.’ Well, what’s wrong?’ You know, ‘I’ve got City and Guilds in radio.’ ‘What’s — ’ ‘Sorry can’t give you. The reason being. You’re ex-aircrew.’ That was the reason. You were a bloody pariah. You’d been killing people sort of thing. Of course, they’d been over here killing us. I mean I used to say to them, ‘Exeter, Plymouth, Hull,’ etcetera. Shall I go on?’ But of course that [pause] funny us English.
CJ: So after your thirty ops you were demobbed then, were you?
JC: Yeah. Yeah.
CJ: Ok. And then you were looking for a job.
JC: Yeah. And I couldn’t get one. So there was, friends of mine had come out of the Army. A couple of them. They were in to radio and whatnot and we discovered that radiograms as we used to call them or if you could get a radiogram so we said there’s a market here. We’re in. What we did we got hold of all the old turntables. Plenty of them about. And then we built the radio part and the amplifier and we had, knew a bloke who made cabinets. So wooden cabinets to house the radiogram and we were making a damned good business out of it. And then what happened then? Oh yeah. [pause] Because of the radio business a firm down in Barking, Essex they’d heard of me because a, once again a friend of a friend and they said, ‘Well, would you come and set up our radio equipment?’ Which I did. Then I thought to myself well I don’t know. I can do better than this really. Because I’d got the, what do you call it the [pause] the knowledge as well as being able to make the radios and all the rest of it. I got all that so we, I decided I could do better. And I just put a word around and before I knew it Vidor at Vidor at Erith came after me and said, we want you sort of thing. And I went to Erith, Vidor as a buyer. Because of my knowledge and because of my mechanical aptitude I became a technical buyer at Vidor when they were making the little portables. And then while I was there I was head hunted by Decca. And Decca came after me and said, ‘We’ve heard all about you. We know what you do and you know, makes you tick,’ and I became the, in the Decca radio and television side I became the chief buyer for the bits and pieces. And then to finish the story I, I was there, oh quite got a long time. And then once again a friend of mine I worked with at Vidor he wanted to come and see me. He did and he stayed until about midnight and I wondered what the hell was going on. And then I said, ‘Hey Jim, what are you up to?’ So he said, ‘I’m offering you a job ain’t I?’ And I said, ‘But you can’t match what Decca’s giving me at the moment.’ He said, ‘Try me.’ And I did. And he said, ‘Right. I want you. I want you to set up a company with departments and all the rest of it because we have a device which we — ’ A device which they’d patented. How to measure or weigh by means of air pressure. Not electric but air pressure. Now, this was a good thing. I saw the potential because all the big manufacturers of, that were using, making things which were explosive. That was the answer. So we got going into a very good business and it, it really went well until, until twenty years later. The electronic boys found out how to do it. Make it spark. Spark positive. Whatever you’d like to call it. In other words if there was a spark there wouldn’t be an explosion. So they were beating us then at our own game and unfortunately we went down this pan. Or the company did. By that time I was a director of that company. I was also a director of five others. So I took their little engraving, well part it we owned was an engraving company. So I took that and I went up to Leicester. That’s where it was based. There was only two people. I made the third. And I worked away and I got contracts for BBC. People like that. Big contracts. And once again I was doing all right. So I worked away there and sort of set myself up for a pension by an annuity which I’ve still got today. And then of course time to retire. There you have it.
CJ: There you go. And I think you said earlier that you, you didn’t marry until the war was over. Was that right?
JC: That’s right. I said to my late wife, ‘I will not marry you. Not until I finish flying because I don’t want you to be left with a cinder.’ Because aircrew used to get horribly burned and I wasn’t going to have that. That’s why I didn’t. So October ’45 we were married. And that’s the bit. Married. The vicar was available. Just got hold of him. It was the big church in Brixton. Acre Lane where the big church was and we were married in that church. Now, we managed to get the vicar but we didn’t have a choir, we didn’t have anything like that. We didn’t, we didn’t even have a car to take us. We had a car but halfway there because of the war and bald tyres it got a puncture and we had to walk the rest of the way to the church. And we got married the 20th of October 1945. And I was married for forty six years. Forty seven years. Then you know this. I’ve told you the story about Vi and I and the motorbikes.
CJ: So I think you said you had a common love of motorbikes.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And Vi lost her husband as well.
JC: Yeah. What I did, when we said oh well we’ll get together we did. But to get married was such a mishmash I can’t, I don’t, I won’t explain it now but it caused a lot of problems or would have done. So we became partners. And I said to Vi, ‘We’re going to have a look at the world.’ And she’d not, so she’d been to Israel. Where else did you go love? You went to Israel. Where else?
VJ: Everywhere that we could.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Everywhere that we possibly could get.
JC: Well, yeah that’s when I said to her, ‘Right. Well, we’re going to see as much of the world as we can,’ and we did. And we went, that’s why we’ve been to Canada, the states. You name it.
CJ: And did you carry on biking on after the war?
JC: Oh yeah, yeah. Carried on biking. After the war. You see because my friend Stanley was Vi’s husband.
CJ: So what was your favourite bike?
JC: Hmmn?
CJ: What was your favourite bike?
JC: Well, my favourite bike was a Vinny. A Vincent. But my wife wouldn’t let me. They had them. They had one. They had a Vincent. Look. There’s one on the wall up there. They had them. But my wife said, ‘No. No. It’s too fast. No. No,’ she said, ‘I’ll leave you if you get one of those.’ No. I didn’t have one. I had a Triumph. A Triumph 650. Which wasn’t bad. I used to get a fair old speed out of it.
CJ: And coming back to the RAF did you keep in touch with the rest of the crew after the war?
JC: Oh yeah. Yes. I did. But gradually, unfortunately the engineer died of [pause] Oh dear. Cancer. It was cancer, wasn’t it?
VJ: Yeah.
JC: He died. And then I lost touch because well a lot of them disappeared. I’ve since discovered that I’m the only one alive. The rest have gone.
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: Eh?
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: I can’t remember.
VJ: About three or four years.
JC: When was it?
VJ: About four years ago.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Four. Four years.
CJ: Four years ago.
JC: Four years ago. Yeah.
CJ: So I gather you went up to East Kirkby for Mac. Is that correct?
CJ: Yes.
CJ: What was that all about?
JC: Well, his daughter was scattering his ashes in the little field of Remembrance up there. That’s why I went up there. We all went up there. There was a gang of us. Of course, scattered his ashes. I simply broke down.
CJ: And were you in a Squadron Association?
JC: Oh yes. It’s in this. Plenty of them. I’m in the Squadron Association and I still get a newsletter every year. I used to go up to the dinner and dance and whatnot. I used to. Now, I couldn’t. So —
MM: You tell him about Johnny Chatterton and Mike Chatterton.
JC: Well, Johnny Chatterton was the test pilot 630 Squadron. He’d just finished his second tour. He was looking for a crew. We’d finished ours and he said, ‘I’m going to take you over pro tem.’ And he did. He took us over for [pause] oh, I don’t know. About a year. Something like that. And finished our time at 630. Disbanded in July. July ’45. So when we disbanded that was it. Johnny tried to get the rest of the crew to go with him but they wouldn’t have it. They wouldn’t have it.
MM: But his son flew the Memorial Flight, didn’t he?
JC: Oh yeah. Mike Chatterton was, was also in the flying game if you like and he, he used to fly the Lanc. Not fly it. Well, he did but —
CJ: This was the BBMF Lancaster.
JC: Yeah. He flew that but the one at East Kirkby when they first got it running, the four engines and he did the first taxi run. When he finished the taxi run he said, ‘I had a bloody hard job to hold it down,’ he said, ‘It wanted to get in the air. Wanted to take off. I had to hold it down.’ Now, Mike Chatterton, he became a wing commander I think. He’s retired now, of course. The Chattertons own the farm which is near East Kirkby actually. Now, that’s a funny thing you see because Johnny Chatterton was born in a little house which is in, was in the middle of East Kirkby.
CJ: What a coincidence.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Now, have you anything else you’d like to tell us, Joe?
JC: I’m just having a think. What I’m me and my, my beloved partner are carrying on. We’re still together and we don’t know how long because she’s eighty seven. Aren’t you?
VJ: Six.
JC: Eighty six.
MM: She’ll kill you if you don’t know.
JC: And of course I’m ninety one. You had to be that age to do what we’d done because it was at the end of the war. I can add, people say, ‘Well, were you frightened?’ Etcetera. No. Not a bit.
MM: Would you do it again, Joe?
JC: Oh, of course not. I’ve got more sense.
CJ: Well, thanks very much for talking to us today, Joe. That was brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
JC: Yeah. Right.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, tell me Joe did you ever get wounded when you were flying on ops?
JC: Very slightly. I wouldn’t say I really got wounded. What happened was that the flak that came up, came through the turret and caught my right outer gun. In doing so it knocked the back plate off which has the return spring etcetera. And it’s the buffer plate for the [pause] oh dear. I’ve forgotten the name of the —
CJ: The breech.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The breech.
JC: No. It goes backwards and forwards.
CJ: The bolt.
JC: At a fast rate.
CJ: Ok. The firing pin.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The firing pin.
JC: No. No. No. It’s the breech block.
CJ: Ok.
JC: And the breach block came back and came straight out and landed in my lap actually after it had hit the side of my head. Taken my helmet. It took, you know the helmet round bit. The telephones, if you like. Took that off and creased the side of my head and when we went to get debriefed chappy there said, ‘Oh, come on,’ he said, ‘Debrief quick,’ he said, ‘You’ve got to, better go up sick quarters because you’re bleeding.’ I went up sick quarters and the, I don’t know who it was in charge. I can’t remember. But they cleaned up the, where the wound if you like. Cleaned it up and then looked at it and he put an adhesive plaster or a tape on it. Took one step back and said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Fit for flying tomorrow.’
CJ: Well, thank you for that Joe.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe would you like to tell us about any incident when you actually shot an aircraft down?
JC: Yes. I can because I have my diary which I wrote in. Every time I came back I wrote what it was like. So I can tell you that on the 8th and 9th of February ’45 the target was Politz which was an oil installation north of Stettin. And I go on to say, “The flak was fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights, some in target area and over Denmark. Two Junkers 88s seen over target. Then Junkers 88 shot down and destroyed by the mid-upper gunner and myself and the bomb aimer two minutes before bombs gone. This was a very tiring trip being airborne for nine hours forty five minutes. Flown over for, eighteen hundred miles. Crossing Sweden and Denmark and the Baltic. The Swedish AA fire was very accurate and a lot of ‘dive ports’ had to be given to avoid it. That was two minutes from the run up to the bombing run. Then the mid-upper sighted a Junkers 88 on port beam level. The mid-upper and bomb aimer opened fire. The 88 tried to drop behind. I yelled out to the skipper, ‘Throttle back. Whatever he does you do. Don’t let don’t let him go up or down or sideways or anything.’ And then at approximately range is seventy five yards I fired in to the canopy and killed the crew. Both the gunners, the other two other than myself kept firing and strikes observed on both engines and it eventually broke away and the bomb aimer saw it crash in the target area. And it was reported also by other crews. Numerous explosions and thick black smoke with flames intermingled came up from the target. Visibility was very good. No cloud. And marking was bang on. No doubt Politz was well and truly pranged this time. It seemed ages in the air. Especially on the return across the North Sea. There was not much AA fire over Denmark but Swedish gunners were very active. No fighters were, were observed after the 88. This provided enjoyment of aerial warfare.”
Well, thanks very much Joe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joseph Henry Cook
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJH170118, PCookJH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:04:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Completing school and moving on to work at 20th Century Fox Films, he worked as a fire watcher at the beginning of the war before joining the Royal Air Force. He states that he did that because he always wanted to fly and didn’t want to join the Army. He was sent to St. John’s Woods, for square bashing, which he thought was to ‘break’ the aircrews, before completing his initial training at RAF Bridgnorth and then onto RAF Bridlington to learn Morse code. He turned down being a bomb aimer in Anson and trained as an air gunner instead, after being told that they had the highest loss rate. He eventually travelled to RAF Tarrant Rushton just before the D-Day landings, being sent to drop leaflets over France in old Stirlings. Upon completing one of his first four operations, he baled out and landed in a tree. Joe was transferred to Wellingtons, flying training eight-hour trips. Joe also recounts several experiences on operations, including two near misses and flying at low temperatures. He didn’t think about losses, purely as they were so tired. Decommissioned in July 1945, Joe struggled to find work following the war, with people not hiring him as they believed he had killed people. He remained in touch with his crew and he also joined the squadron association. He states that he was never frightened throughout the war, but that he wouldn’t do it again, as he has more sense now.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Urft Dam
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Temporal Coverage
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1945-07
630 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 109
Me 262
military ethos
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/889/11128/AHulyerA.1.jpg
857324dbf79d35389b8dbadd262820a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/889/11128/AHulyerAF171010.1.mp3
f3f8673985f4cfe9e3f60a8c7343cddb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hulyer, Arthur
Arthur Frederick Hulyer
A F Hulyer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with (1923 - 2018, 1800774 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 76 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hulyer, AF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Arthur Hulyer today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Arthur’s home near Canterbury, in Kent and it is Tuesday, the 10th of October 2017. So, thank you for talking to us today, Arthur, perhaps you could tell us first, please, where and when you were born and what your family background was?
AH: Well, I was born in a little place just outside Gravesend, country place and went to school, and then I ended up in engineering. So, I trained with a firm who were at Gravesend Airport and this was, you know, just the right place for me ‘cause I was mad on aeroplanes. So, I stayed there with them really and then eventually I volunteered for RAF aircrew, so, but then, in that particular time, 1942, everybody wanted to join the Air Force, there were, I think a hundred and twenty thousand really aircrew so I thought, oh God, no good, so, I was with an engineering firm so they trained me virtually and then eventually I left them to join the Air Force, ‘cause everybody was joining the Air Force, you know, and being all around aircraft, with the Battle of Britain, you know, kind of thing gone through and Spitfires were dashing off and this so forth, anyway, I’ve got to think now, so, I decided to join up, so, I went to London, you know, in those days, and you know, everybody was there and had the interview and they said, oh, yeah, you can go home and we actually call on you in about six months, which they did. Then what happened? Well, I was a UT pilot, under training, pilot under training, I’ve been through the interview and they selected me for pilot, so, I waited and waited, you know what it’s like really, is that alright? And consequently, I eventually went to Oklahoma, in America and did my pilot training. Anyway, cutting a long story short, I thought, well, I’m going back and I’m going on, you know, fighters, you know, kind of thing, being on an airfield and I was a training engineer, so, I became an engineer, and then what happened then? Let’s go, yes, I joined up. After six months they sent for me and I went down, I started what we call the aircrew training and I did end up as a pilot and consequently, well, we joined this squadron, 76 Squadron, really and I couldn’t be first pilot, I became second pilot and that was quite interesting, went through the war.
CJ: So, why couldn’t you be first pilot?
AH: Well, I just try to remember what happened. Oh God, I’m going back now when I am eighteen, I was in the Air Force at eighteen, now then.
CJ: So, you trained as a pilot in America, which, do you remember which aircraft you trained on?
AH: Oklahoma, Miami, Oklahoma.
CJ: Yeah, do you remember which aircraft you trained on?
AH: I trained on the Harvard, you know and et cetera et cetera.
CJ: The Harvard.
AJ: You know?
CJ: Yes.
AJ: One day, there was, in that particular time, there was what we called, you went on a grading course to become a pilot and I was chosen the pilot and then I eventually, cut a long story short, I ended up in Oklahoma and that’s where I did my pilot training. Then, is, what year was that? I just try to remember now, I must’ve been about nineteen, nineteen years of age.
CJ: 1942?
AH: 1942. Anyway, 76 was quite a correct squadron actually and Cheshire was my CO, Leonard Cheshire.
CJ: Leonard Cheshire.
AJ: Cheshire, my CO really, so I got off to a good start. So, it’s hard to remember all this
CJ: I think you said you trained as a pilot, but you ended up as a navigator.
AH: As a navigator, yeah.
CJ: And why was that?
AH: Well, because, you see there was, there wasn’t a shortage of pilots but they were trying, I don’t know what was going, they sent you on courses and all this and all that you went to and I ended up on Dakotas [laughs], God!
CJ: Can we go back to 76 Squadron, so you, between training as a pilot on Harvards, did you have any, you must have had some training before you went on to 76 Squadron, did you?
AH: Oh yes, we had training, I went to America trained, Miami, Oklahoma. There was such a terrible place there.
CJ: Did you have some training in England before you were allocated to the squadron?
AH: Yeah. I flew as second pilot on Halifaxes.
CJ: Ah, okay.
AH: [unclear] My squadron, he was just a pilot officer and he wasn’t, I don’t know if he’s still alive, actually, but 76 Squadron, yeah, oh God, yeah [unclear]
CJ: And whereabouts were you based with 76 Squadron?
AH: Well, we were, you know, the losses were terrible, really, and we were lucky to get away with it really.
CJ: But which airfield were you flying from?
AH: Holme-on-Spalding Moor.
CJ: Holme-on-Spalding Moor, in Yorkshire.
AH: Holme-on-Spalding, parent airfield, that’s where we all but before that, you see, you go through a course in the RAF [unclear], where you go on various aircraft really to get to a stage where you, you know, so let’s start from where I joined 76 Squadron was Holme-on-Spalding Moor, losses were terrible then, really, but looking back I met a lot of blokes, and you know they are all the same type aircrew, [pause] anyway let’s pick, let’s go from there 76 Squadron. My mind’s gone blank [laughs].
CJ: But do you remember how many operations you flew with 76?
AH: Oh, about half a dozen, yeah.
CJ: And what were the, do you remember what any of the targets were that you were flying to?
AH: Oh yes, I remember, Hamburg was the first one, Hamburg, [unclear], I did several night trips, then, what happened then? [pause] Then, they sent me to this Dakota squadron which was, what was [unclear], no, we converted to Dakotas, that’s right. And I went as Second Dickey, ‘cause you know there was a shortage of Second Dickey, they couldn’t find people that had had the training.
CJ: Sorry, for those who don’t know the terminology, what’s a Second Dickey?
AH: Pilot, Second Dickey.
CJ: Co-pilot, is it? Yes.
AH: Yes, they were on Dakota Second Dickey. Now I’m supposed to now, go to India to pick people up and bring them home, Burma, from Burma, so I am in India and consequently you know, we are picking up supplies and taking them around airfields and dropping them, and then we start, I think about bringing them home, when they drop the atomic bomb it’s the end of the war, so I say now what happens, you know. India was quite remarkable really because in a way, the, I went from four engine Halifax then I’m flying Second Dickey on the, on the⸻
CJ: Dakota.
AH: See, on Dakota, yeah, I’m getting long in the tooth now, yeah [laughs], I’m not a lad anymore, I’ve seen a lot of action which was in a way, they switch you, I mean looking up my logbook the other day, I got experience on nine aircraft, which is very interesting.
CJ: So you were flying troops back from India, back home at the end of the war and what happened to you after that?
AH: It never got to that, we never flew them back home, yeah.
CJ: Right.
AH: We stayed on the squadron virtually and they got [file missing]
[Other]: Excuse me interrupting.
CJ: Here we go.
AH: Yeah, can I talk casual now, can I? Yeah, I enjoyed India, actually, really, because I was grounded because it got to the stage where they were trying to, they paid us too much money [laughs] so consequently they wanted to move us around a bit so, as I was trained as an engineer virtually, I went on an MT section, and that was very interesting, trained as an engineer, so consequently I went to, joined the MT section in the RAF.
CJ: MT being motor transport.
AH: Motor transport, [unclear] cars as well and that was quite interesting because I had a lot of freedom really, by this stage I was warrant officer and so I enjoyed that and then I nearly got married in India, met a lovely girl actually, but she was in the WAAF you know, Indian ATF but she left me and you got posted and ended that romance you know [laughs], my wife [unclear], Tessa her name was and perhaps my wife thinks I should have married her [unclear] my marriage, I’m still here anyway and I’m getting long in the tooth now.
CJ: So how long did you stay on the MT section for?
AH: Well, I was in charge of a group really which was interesting, disbanded aircraft you know, engines and whatever, and then the time came for demob you see then, so now I had to think about civilian life.
CJ: So, when did you get demobbed?
AH: When?
CJ: When did you get demobbed?
AH: I was, I think my release group was 47 and I came out in ‘46 you know, but my number was 47 but, I left the RAF in 1946 and I came back into industry.
CJ: I mean, what job were you doing in industry?
AH: Well, I was engineer, I was, oh God, I liked engineering really, because I did a bit of this in the RAF, while I was waiting, you get a lot of waiting in the Air Force going from one course to another [unclear] but, has she come back yet? Yeah, I’m trying to pick up in [file missing] well, I went back to Gravesend where my hometown was and took up my old job virtually and then I got a bit fed up with that and I decided, I was a qualified engineer, I decided actually to go into teaching. So my old college, I’d already started teaching, lecturing really, see lecturing engineering about cars and things like that and I eventually decided to teach, so I did some evening classes as a senior, as a lecturer. Well, I stuck that for a while, then I decided, I did a more, started to, get visible qualifications, letters after my name, so I started taking management courses in engineering,
CJ: Day release, yes.
AH: I got some qualifications in administration or whatever, lead up to City & Guilds, I got two full technological certificates in City & Guilds engineering, one in, ‘cause I better tell you where I went to, I went to work for Ford motor company and they put me on this section side quality control, all the rest of it but I’ve got, I’ve got so many certificates upstairs really but engineering. One is a full technological certificate in vehicle engineering, and another is a City & Guilds full technological certificate in, oh God, oh, mind if I show them to you, can I show them to you? I’ll show them to you later.
CJ: So you said you went into lecturing in engineering.
AH: And then I started to go in evening classes, I applied for, I’m already teaching in evening classes, and now I am going higher, I’m going to go for university so I applied for a job virtually in Woolwich Polytechnic. This is a different type of engineering, nothing to do with vehicles just general engineering and I’d take these examinations and they want me to come on the staff, so I become a senior lecturer in a college now which is quite interesting.
CJ: And then I think you ended up, you were teaching at Folkestone later, is that correct?
AH: Pardon?
CJ: You said you were teaching at Folkestone later on?
AH: I left Folkestone now and I’ve gone to the Woolwich Polytechnic.
CJ: Ah, okay. Right.
AH: A better job now, you got more money being a lecturer.
CJ: And did you stay at Woolwich until you retired?
AH: [sighs], well, I started looking around for better positions, [unclear] the country got busy really, but I am still working for the Ford motor company, anyway what happened then? This is where I go and make another move, I joined the staff, teaching staff or lecturing staff of Woolwich Polytechnic, now I’ve become a senior lecturer in engineering and that is where I actually stayed until I retired.
CJ: Then coming back to the RAF after the war years, did you manage to keep in contact with any former crew members? Were you in a squadron association?
AH: Well, I did start going to reunions and travelling to Yorkshire and meeting all the lads, you know, which is quite jolly actually and I looked forward to, and I kept that up virtually until last year, I didn’t go last year, usually about this time we were having these reunions and consequently I didn’t go this year either, I think I’m getting too long for travelling long distances [unclear]
CJ: And how did⸻
AH: Interesting time though because amazing how many we lost during the war, fifty thousand, fifty five thousand, and lots of blokes who were dear to me really.
CJ: And how do you think Bomber Command were treated after the war?
AH: Well, it wasn’t very good actually, you know, we did our best and a lot of us fell by the wayside but they didn’t look after us at all but I think last year was about the twenty, when I first started joining and having these reunions, if you didn’t book in early, it was full, you know, and consequently you missed out on them, but nice, when we used to get together again, it was very good. The camaraderie was there and I quite enjoyed it, I used to take three days off and ‘cause when I was working down here I, when I left the RAF I became an engineer again, really, but.
CJ: Can we go back to, we rather passed over quickly the operations that you were on, can you tell me what life was like on the base in Holme-on-Spalding Moor? What the accommodation was like? The meals? What you did if you had any time off?
AH: Well, it was marvellous, really, actually, [unclear] reunions were in, everybody was, you know [laughs], all, you know, buddies again, you know, and⸻
CJ: When you were actually on the base in the RAF during the war.
AH: Yeah.
CJ: What was life like when you were based at Holme-on-Spalding Moor?
AH: Very good, yeah, the Australians were a good lot, yeah, the Australians, yeah, my skipper I flew with, virtually, Bill Turner, he was an Australian, he was a good pilot, yeah, and but there were a hell of losses though, really, you were living more or less, never know when you’re gonna get back, actually.
CJ: So what was it like for you on a typical operation? How you planned for it and how you were told what your target was and so on?
AH: Well, mostly virtually we, the Halifax is more or less a medium bomber really, not like the Lancaster, but getting up to the squadron though, in the RAF virtually, you know, you are graded as a pilot, did you know about the grading scheme?
CJ: No, please tell us.
AH: Well, the grading scheme is where is you know, when you’re a raw recruit virtually and they want to find out if you’re gonna make a pilot so they send you on a grading course and you got to solo in so many hours and then you’re in, kind of thing you know and you got and train as pilot. Well, I went to Oklahoma, Miami, Oklahoma, all young lads, you know, and they wash you out there actually. Anyway, I was there, then they, how did I get back on the squadron. Oh, we converted, that’s right, when the war finished, we converted to Dakotas,
CJ: Yes.
AH: You know, that was quite lovely, actually, you know, flying, [unclear] photographs [unclear] place, take supplies to this airfield, that airfield, but we did fly people home, that was what we were out there for, dropping the atomic bomb, war had finished, now you are more or less, what you’re gonna do? And they’re washing pilots out left, right and centre you know, pilots go back to more or less reduce the ranks, I was a warrant officer now, you see, and consequently then you didn’t fly anymore. I should’ve stayed in the Air Force.
CJ: When you were on 76 Squadron on the Halifaxes, how did you find out what your target would be when you were going on an operation and how did you plan for that?
AH: You know, the usual thing, you know, you go to, all meet in the hall and [laughs] yeah.
CJ: So.
AH: It was a weird time actually because a lot of us really wanted to fly, I was, I went, I can remember, I went to an MT section, and I was supervising people who were stripping engines and things like that which wouldn’t be very good.
CJ: You were saying when you were going on an operation, everybody would meet in a hall so you’d have what, a big briefing for all the aircrew?
AH: Where the meeting to find out where the target is.
CJ: Yeah.
AH: Yeah, the target.
CJ: So, the fuel load and the bomb load would be decided for you.
AH: Yeah, and you know, fuel, all the rest of it.
CJ: And for you as a navigator, did you have then any electronic aids to get you to the target?
AH: I did my ops as a second pilot, you see.
CJ: Right.
AH: Which is one way really getting through the war, isn’t it?
CJ: And⸻
AH: How are we doing so far? Alright?
CJ: Do you remember any particular mission? Did you have any?
AH: Oh yeah.
CJ: Did you get caught by searchlights or night fighters?
AH: We got [unclear] virtually, I remember going to the Frisian Islands virtually. I never liked the night flying really on operations really. You see, the difference between daylights and night flying is the fact that, you know, they showed up, on night flights, they put up a barrage and they always put up the barrage and you see all this stuff come up in front of you and you, and it’s all exploding, and you think you got to fly through that, which you got to, really, you can’t keep altering course all the time. Remember now, I’m not flying in what I was trained for, I’m not flying as a navigator, I’m flying now as a Second Dickey, there’s Bill there and me here, virtually and trying to avoid this stuff, you see, when you’re trying to avoid the flak, really, the navigator, who’s doing the navigating, he’s not happy about it, is he, altering course all the time, here you are weaving all over the sky, there’s flak coming up and all the rest of it, and you hear the splinters [unclear] the fuselage and the fuselage is only kind of fabric and the Halifax even, you see, well, that stuff used to come through, you know, weren’t very happy but you lived on your nerves all the time. Anyway, we had to do it, and get on with it, best we could. I’m going to try and take my mind back now to the war years in the RAF. See, you go down to a briefing and you don’t know what your target is, they put the sheet up on the, in the front there and you listen there and talk, all jolly. War was a horrible business, isn’t it?
CJ: So, were some targets less popular than others?
AH: Well, you didn’t get a choice actually, you decided by, [unclear] who’s the [laughs], I’m trying to think of the chap that was in charge of Bomber Command.
CJ: Harris?
AH: Harris, yeah Harris. Harris said, you got to go ‘cause it got to be done and but we didn’t mind the daylights, you could see where you’re going, but then you had to, instead of altering course to avoid the flak virtually you got to more or less fly through it otherwise the old navigator’s got a terrible problem to do, hasn’t he? Can’t do short triangles [unclear] so consequently not very nice but you have your good trips and the bad trips, really, yeah. Where how far am along the road now? Still in the Air Force, aren’t I? Yeah, the trouble with the, you know, when you’re under orders really, you got to do what you’re told and these targets are more or less sorted out by Bill Harris what’s his name, it’s not Bill, what’s his Christian name? Bomber Harris.
CJ: Arthur.
AH: Bomber Harris, the targets are sorted out and they got to be done ‘cause really, you’re supporting the army [unclear] when the war was coming to a close it was army support we did, yeah. I can look back now and see that flak how it used to come up, and you think, got to go through that, you know, but that was a job that we had to do, that’s what we was trained for. But looking back over my life, I’ve been lucky, I mean, by the, I mean, you never thought, you thought you were gonna die in Bomber Command, most of us did, you know, and we had that kind of thing, they won’t get us, you know, they won’t get us. I’d like to tell you a bit more about the RAF really because it’s part of my life, my youth and I was lucky to get away, coming out unharmed. That is why I chose, I mean, there must have been a lot of awful deaths really you know, because if you were on one of those aircraft actually, you actually didn’t get away with it, you got shot down and when you look at the losses, fifty thousand, I think on Bomber Command there was a hundred and twenty thousand at the peak of the war and we lost fifty thousand aircrew, which was a lot of people, isn’t it? I mean you, well you, I don’t know what, I mean, other campaigns didn’t have that kind of losses, did they? Fifty thousand is a hell of a lot and then there was this question another thing that held over your head virtually, LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, you know that, don’t you? Yeah, and if you start complaining then you find that, you know, that was a shocking thing to do, I mean, perhaps chaps were scared, no doubt about it, I mean, LMF could have been dealt with differently, you see.
CJ: So if somebody was defined as Lack of Moral Fibre, what happened? What happened to them? Presumably it was⸻
AH: Well, they were just taken off the squadron. They were afraid that it would spread, you see, quite easily people start. I never saw that much of that, really, LMF, I never saw it really, on our squadron nobody was LMF but you know, they used to strip you, on the parade, they used to strip the buttons off your uniform.
CJ: So this was probably, LMF would probably be diagnosed as somebody having a nervous breakdown now, would it?
AH: Yeah, yeah, it would be tackled differently, it wasn’t tackled properly, you know, really. But anyway because, because I really was one of the chaps that volunteered with all this, really, I actually got, I think I got looked up to by people really, can you stop it for a minute? I believe that, because of the numbers that were lost, one way or the other and the people that were more or less, you know shot up and they weren’t looked after, really, ‘cause they, more or less, in the beginning really it was, I wasn’t there in 1939 [laughs] when but when I joined the Air Force firstly, you were shifted from one place to another, you went on this course that course, that course, until finally they then decided that you should join the squadron, you know, I was lucky really, to join a good squadron, 76 Squadron, had a very good record, but our losses were the same as everybody else, but we weren’t an elite squadron, I think really but I loved the flying, I mean, I wasn’t happy if I wasn’t flying.
CJ: You said some of the crew were Australians, so were you the only British member of the crew or were they?
AH: No, my, because they were trying to put me somewhere, the pilots they were losing virtually were terrific, the losses, fifty, fifty [unclear] people. So really, I mean, they they got a lot of volunteers to join aircrew but the wastage there, lot of people weren’t fit to be aircrew, they weren’t, either they didn’t have the appetite or, we, somehow we weren’t scared at all, we knew we had to do this so we did it and we worried about it afterwards, then I said, where is the next raid, you know. But I’m still in the RAF so what am doing now then? [laughs], oh dear! I mean, you know about the grading scheme?
CJ: Yes.
AH: Grading scheme? You know about that, don’t you? I told you about that.
CJ: Yes, you already mentioned it.
AH: I said it before, a couple of air vice marshalls and whatever and they say, you know, ask you questions, why do you want to fly kind of thing, but then what they used to do virtually, while you are waiting to go on a pilot’s course, they send you anywhere, you know, don’t realise what you kind of thing you are doing, you know, mind you, we were digging up roads and [unclear]. I come here to train for a pilot, here I am, pick a shovel, but we did it, but the losses, that’s what, I can never get out of how we got to that stage where they allowed it to happen, they didn’t take, didn’t have an answer for it, well, there wasn’t an answer, was there, really? You go on a target and they shoot up everything they got in the sky and trying to find the targets was another tough [laughs]. We weren’t really, I don’t think we had enough training in navigation, I mean, they took people as pilots, wings, they said, well, you know, try this course or that course really and you were longing to actually kind of, you know, get on ops., not liking it when you got it [laughs], yeah, but what I like about the RAF, all about the same age aircrew, you had to be and you all joined together, you know, you put all these people together virtually and then you make a crew out of them and they do the job, which is wonderful really. What else I can say about the RAF? Well, full of a lot of people of the same age, I mean, anyone more or less over twenties, twenties was a granddad you know [laughs]
CJ: So on your squadron were they mostly Australian or was it half British, half Australian?
AH: We, no, mixed squadron, yeah, you see, this is, you are all mixed together, you know, you flew together, you ate together and you lived together, more or less, you know, you, all about the same age, really, I mean, I didn’t see many people, really, more or less, above a certain age, you gelled, which is good, really, which you had to when you’re flying you see.
CJ: And if you had any spare time, did you manage to get off the base at all?
AH: Oh yeah.
CJ: Where did you?
AH: ‘Cause really if you [laughs], if you got the money when you were aircrew, you know, you, the girls like this [laughs], I say that, my wife’s a lot younger than me and she was, you don’t know much about the war really, but it was a time when you could do something that you enjoyed, you know really, but dropping bombs on people is not a nice thing to do, is it? It’s got to be done and they laid down thirty trips, you know, you see, well, I didn’t get that far because the war packed up, but I enjoyed what I did even though it was dropping bombs from a great height [laughs], yeah. [pause] I regret that I didn’t join, carry on in the Air Force ‘cause I had a good rank, they say the warrant officer is one of the best ranks in the RAF, you know, you know you, I wasn’t commissioned, I suppose I would have commissioned but I stayed in really but I enjoyed what I did really.
CJ: Could you stayed on if you wanted to?
AH: Yes, you see, twice I [unclear] when I , I did apply and I was going to a place, I turned it down, I regret that all my life really, ‘cause my pilot was in the military, you’re a regular soldier but that was one thing I regret about all that I having got the rank, I suppose I would’ve been commissioned eventually if I stayed in but I wouldn’t’ve been much better off, the pay wasn’t much different really, but I mean, I travelling to America, I mean, I flown the, I travelled the Atlantic by ships twice, I was trained in America, then I went down the Atlantic in a, again this time going to India, you see, I loved flying the Dakotas round India, you think you’re airline pilots you know [laughs] yeah, but they treated us well in India, yeah. Looking back though really I haven’t done too badly because whenever, I mean, I applied for teaching jobs, I always used to get them, you know, but as I lectured in engineering, I became a senior lecturer, which wasn’t bad, when I became a departmental head of kind, but I like teaching boys, I mean, they kept me young, you know that, paid a treat, yeah, and I was grateful for them, Gravesend Technical College virtually that actually kind of, excepted me on the staff, and because of that, I was getting ambitious in the teaching world, so I ended up virtually going to Woolwich Polytechnic and carried on lecturing and getting a bit more freedom, a bit more money and I got this house, you know, which is, so I haven’t done too badly, have I? [laughs]
CJ: You’ve done very well.
AH: Yeah, good.
CJ: Right. Well, I’m delighted that you made it through the war Arthur and thank you very much for speaking to us today.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Hulyer
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHulyerAF171010
Format
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00:50:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
India
United States
Oklahoma
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Hulyer talks about his experience in the RAF. Remembers working in an engineering firm before joining the Air Force. Tells of how he trained to become a pilot. He was sent to America, for pilot training in Oklahoma, but then ended up as a navigator. Flew ops as a second pilot on Halifaxes with 76 Squadron based at Holme-on-Spalding Moor. Emphasises the sense of comradeship between young men of the same age on the squadron. From 76 Squadron, he was posted to another squadron, assigned with flying Dakotas to India. After the war, he initially worked as an engineer and then became a senior lecturer in engineering.
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Contributor
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Carolyn Emery
76 Squadron
aircrew
C-47
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
navigator
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/932/11290/PLongmateMS1601.2.jpg
0417378173cfc02a7d22050c960c569d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/932/11290/ALongmateMS161019.1.mp3
d889ed2d888d5147c9cae51f6ffd27bf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Longmate, Margaret Sinclair
M S Longmate
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Sinclair Longmate (b. 1925, 2150950, Royal Air Force). She served in Flying Training Command.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Longmate, MS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: So, this is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Margaret Longmate today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Margaret’s house in Sandwich and it’s Wednesday the 19th of October 2016. So, thank you for talking to us today Margaret. Could we start the interview perhaps by you explaining your background? Where and when you were born and your family background?
ML: Well, I was born in Edinburgh on the 30th of March 1925. Just very much an Edinburgh girl. I was at school, Girl Guides, Youth Club at St George’s West Church with a marvellous minister there, Dr Black. And, and then after school into the WAAF when I was eighteen. And a large chunk of time, well in the WAAF ‘til 1947. My only connection with the Air Force before that had been my uncle, my mother’s brother, who had been in the Flying Corps, and I believe he had made his age to be older than it was. He was sixteen when he went in, I believe. But anyway, when I was young I used to think that he was quite a hero, Uncle John. But he was in the First War, and he also spent a long time with 603 Squadron in the Second War. But he was a flight sergeant, a chiefy armourer. Anyway, that was the only connection with the RAF when I was a child. And I’m trying very hard to think about things in Edinburgh. I played hockey for the school, and I played for the school FP hockey team. And I always had a love of hockey which went on until I was about fifty when it became golf was [laughs] But I don’t know what else you wanted to know about Edinburgh.
CJ: Well, perhaps you could tell us what you were doing at the start of the war and how that affected you and how later on in the war you, you came to join the WAAFs.
ML: My, my cousin Elma, my mother’s sister’s girl, she was in the WAAF. Joined as an electrician and my, her brother Lawrence volunteered for aircrew. He was, he was very bright career ahead of him as an architect. In fact, he won a scholarship to go and study architecture in Italy for a year. But of course came the war. He volunteered for aircrew and that, that he went in to the, he went into the RAF. And of course now I remember as a schoolgirl I’d been, I’ve got masses of cuttings and I’ve got the names of all the crews in 603 Squadron. The City of Edinburgh Squadron. I’ve still got the books with all the bits about these crews and pilots. And I’ve kept it right up to date to when some of the Memorial Services not very long ago. But I was very interested in them and of course once Lawrence had gone into the RAF. And as a Guide I had two lovely friends who were in the Scouts. One of them went into the RAF and became a bomber pilot, and his brother was a Fleet Air Arm pilot. Sadly both of them went in 1944. One died in a German prisoner of war camp. The bomber one did, and the other one was Fleet Air Arm. He died at an accident or something the same year. So poor Mrs Anderson lost both her sons in the one year. But they were great friends too. I also had a friend of our family called Wilson and oh, family gatherings in those days we all did our own thing. My little sister sang. I always had to recite something by Robert Louis Stevenson, and my cousin Lawrence was a good pianist. A good classical pianist. But he was always being pulled up when he was practicing. His mother would suddenly shout upstairs because there he was playing eight to the bar on the piano. Boogie woogie had just come in so, but he was a very good classical pianist too as well as going to become an architect. So these were all people involved in the Air Force so everything was, everything was interesting. Well, you couldn’t help but be. What they had weeks. I can remember. I can remember a Lancaster bomber being out on Bruntsfield Links, and it was Wings for Victory or something week and everybody was allowed to look at it. And I can remember thinking this huge great plane. But these things struck me but then as I say I went into the WAAF. When it came to eighteen everybody was being called up. Several people had been put on the land and then to munitions and I thought if I’m being called up I would rather go in the RAF because everybody else in the family’s there. So, that’s more or less why I went as a WAAF, and went to Wilmslow in Cheshire. I had never been out of Scotland in my life before then, and things were very limited because you couldn’t, you couldn’t get north of Perth. The whole of the Highlands was shut off to the general public. So I longed to get up to the Hebrides and Skye and these areas that I’d read about in books. But it was many years later before I got up there, in 1948. So, that gave me a hankering to seeing the Highlands again. And so I went to Wilmslow in Cheshire. And it was, well it was an education as I say. I had never been outside Edinburgh. Outside Scotland. And we were a real cross section of, of WAAF from all over the country, and we had this six weeks together. And I met good friends there too. And two of them — one of them went on the same course as me to, to become a wireless mechanic and they were, we were sent to London, to Woolwich. Civilian billets. On the day I arrived in London and went across London in a lorry and then was sent out to this billet. And the family there had an Anderson shelter in the garden and the day I arrived was the first Doodlebug raid. And we used to be in this shelter night after night. It was at Plumstead, and I think the, the family, they were so afraid for their children I think they, they left the house so we had to go to another billet at Eltham. And the week after we went to Eltham our billet was blown up by a Doodlebug, so it was, it was, I don’t know, meant to be. But I used to walk from the top of the Eltham Way right down to the foot of it to get a bus into Woolwich to go to the Woolwich Technical College where we were doing our course. And it was right outside the door of Woolwich Arsenal. And of course, it was the hottest year. One of the hottest years they’d ever had. I wore full WAAF gear. It was trousers and a jacket and a gas mask and a huge bag of books and a tin hat and a collar and tie, and I walked the whole length of Rochester Way they called it down to the bus stop. And I’d never experienced heat like it. I always remember how hot it was. The other thing was that right outside between the Arsenal door and the college was a fruit market and it was usually plums I think and the WAAFs used to go out at lunchtime and buy fruit and we used our tin hats as baskets. We had the plums in our hats. Well, one day the siren went, something went when we were out in the market and a Doodlebug came right down behind the door of Woolwich Arsenal. And I’ve still got a bit of Woolwich Arsenal roof that fell on top of me. And we all dived under the stalls, and when we went back in we were severely admonished by a WAAF officer because we had not had our tin hats on. But they were all full of plums. So that, that was at Woolwich. And also at Woolwich I used to travel up into London. I’ve mentioned this before in some record. I went to what they called the Queensbury Club and they had a concert. It was broadcast on the BBC at night. I think it was Alvar Lidell. But the forces got in free and it was lovely. You sat at little tables. You felt civilised. It wasn’t billets or anything. And they were all different ones coming over from America. Stars at that time. And Bing Crosby was there singing with Anne Shelton. And they come out and said, ‘Before we start this broadcast don’t react to something Bing is going to sing,’ and he said, ‘Because remember this broadcast will be heard all over Europe. There will be other ears listening to this.’ And of course he, he did sing, “I Didn’t Sleep a Wink Last Night.” And of course it was the worst Doodlebug raid of — and he said afterwards it would have given the Germans an idea how bad the raid was if we all sort of maybe roared with laughter or something. But I was impressed with Bing Crosby. He was marvellous. He just came out. He didn’t have a mic. He sat on the edge of the stage and just sang, and his voice was marvellous. I always think ever since then Frank Sinatra didn’t even compare with him [laughs] So, that’s why I like Bing Crosby. Anyway, the raids became so heavy they moved the WAAF out of London to Yatesbury and it was a matter of weeks really there while they decided where on earth to put us for the next bit of the course. But there was a concert at Yatesbury and it was Humphrey Lyttleton and his band, and it was a real jazz concert. And it was on a Sunday. Well, it shows the difference. I phoned home and I said, ‘Mum I’m going to a concert,’ and it was Sunday. And that’s not a thing I used to do back in Edinburgh on a Sunday. But I told them about it because everybody else was going. But that was a huge people, it was a huge camp with all sorts of people in transition really at Yatesbury. Yatesbury to Bolton. In civilian billets there. And that’s when I realised just how bad it was for civilians. I knew it was in Edinburgh with rations. My mum with the ration books and things, but at Bolton it was so cold and so wet and they couldn’t heat the house. The only fire was in the kitchen, and everybody sat around that fire. And there were three WAAFs. One from Yorkshire. Another one from outside Edinburgh and myself. And there was this, a widow and her daughter lived in the house. And you couldn’t, to wash anything, your underwear, you couldn’t get anything dry. There was no means of drying things. I’ve also recorded this before I think. And we had thick lisle stockings. If you washed them you just had to go to the college classes with wet stockings on. And, and at night we used to put our greatcoats and everything we could think of on top of the bed as well because it was so cold. There was no heat in the bedrooms. And if you got a photograph from home if you put it on the wall it had curled up by the morning. I was so cold and wet and these people had to put up with that all the time, with the ration of coal and their food ration. She was very good with the way she looked after us. Was a very strict, real Lancashire lady and but she was, she was very good. They accepted all the WAAFs, and Hazel the other WAAF from Yorkshire, Knaresborough, she was made welcome. But it was very difficult to billet the Londoners. They were, they didn’t want anybody from London. Scots went right away. Yorkshire, yes they were acceptable, but London no, and it was very, very hard for them to billet a Londoner. I don’t know. Anyway, they were, in those days very anti Londoners. But after that spate at Bolton we got to a certain stage when they put us on again to Bishopbriggs in Glasgow. Bishopbriggs was on the outskirts of Glasgow but we were in RAF huts there. But what was so interesting there were the, the airmen who were all Jamaican. All from, from white Irish ancestry with red hair to absolutely what they called hill boys, and they had all volunteered as aircrew. And by the time they came over they weren’t needing the aircrew so much and they put them on wireless mechanic courses, the same as us you see. And I saw then how much the ordinary aircraftmen there resented them and yet they were, they were wonderful. There were lawyers amongst them and others that their people owned a lot of land in Jamaica. They’d all just volunteered to do something for Britain. It was the attitude they were treated in this country. I felt very strongly about it. Even instinctively one of them must have been of Scottish ancestry because his name was Crichton. And I remember getting in touch, writing through to my mum and saying about I could bring him home for a week and mum wasn’t very sure when I said Jamaican. She immediately thought, ‘You shouldn’t be going out with a Jamaican.’ And I said, ‘But mum, he’s not black. He’s not quite white but he’s not — but anyway,’ I said, ‘But he’s a very cultured man.’ But they couldn’t accept that so much in this country, but they all volunteered and came and they were bitterly disappointed about not [pause] they’d volunteered as aircrew. All of them. That was a point I’d forgotten. And then I went from Bishops, Bishopbriggs. I went to Cranwell for the rest of the course. I was at, I was at Cranwell. Cranwell at VE day because there was an all ranks dance. All the dances were all ranks and they were marvellous dances at Cranwell. And they always had a good orchestra, and it was always Glen Miller music they were playing. And they just had the first few bars of, “In the Mood,” and there was a hundred people up on the floor dancing. It was, it was wonderful at Cranwell. And I can remember it was, there was a heatwave there too. Yes. Anyway, I passed out at Cranwell. I got my sparks at Cranwell and became a wireless mechanic, and they posted me from Cranwell to Errol in Perthshire. And they were all Fleet Air Arm pilots. They were all Canadians. And that was — they were charming people. That was the first time I really learned or tried to learn to jive because they all jived, and that was at Errol. And I was only a matter of weeks at Errol when I was posted to Ternhill. And I was there, there quite a while at Ternhill in Shropshire and that’s when I started in the way I liked. I used to, I was out on B Flight most of the time. I was their wireless mechanic. And when the instructors took their planes up beforehand for an air check or a night flying check I would be checking the radio. So I got to know them well and and they were ever so kind. They used to let me land. They were Harvards. We always — and they let me land the Harvard. I always remember landing at ninety miles an hour but, and I used to enjoy going up. I was also wireless mech for Test Flight. There was a Flight Lieutenant Martin there. He was a test pilot and of course he took the planes up after a main plane change or something major. None of the aircrew would go up with him after a main plane change [laughs] Anyway, I would go up with him. So, I would go up and he had a warrant officer on the flight with him who also tested and, and we’d go up and have a dogfight in the clouds with the Harvards, and that was thrilling. I used to enjoy that too. But all these instructors that I went up with on, on night flight training tests, I got them to sign how many hours I’d done. So, I got several hours of landing Harvards. And I’ve got the list of all the, all the pilots that I had. So, that that was very much what I remembered at Ternhill. Also at Ternhill it was my twenty first birthday and with another two WAAFs I cycled, it was about fourteen miles to a place called Calverhall. A lady had a little country tea room and we went there and we had poached egg on toast. We had real eggs, and that was my twenty first birthday celebration because only the aircrew got eggs. We had dried eggs of course, but the fact of finding fresh eggs. So I think that meant more to me than a great big cake that they have nowadays and thousands of pounds worth of party. The three of us just cycled there and had poached egg on toast. That was my twenty first birthday celebration at Ternhill. And then they moved the whole of the 5P AFU they called it from Ternhill to Kirton in Lindsey in Lincolnshire. And there I had a lot of, well at that time, ’46 ’47 a lot of sport. I played a lot of hockey, and there was a Highlander from Islay. Yes. Jock, another wireless mech man. He played shinty of course coming from the Highlands, and they used to have mixed hockey matches. And one day he tackled the ball a la shinty. In hockey you don’t raise it above your shoulders in those days but he swung it right back and caught me between the eyes and I ended up in sick bay. I got knocked out. And my husband to be, my fiancé had been three and a half years in the Far East of course, out in the Cocos Islands and Ceylon, came back on leave and I met him with a black eye as a result of hockey. So, that was, that was Jock MacAuley from the Highlands who did that, but we always played in mixed hockey together. But they had a very good PE sergeant at, at Kirton and he encouraged the hockey and the running and we had a very good — I’ve got the shield still. Our group athletics. We had a little team of four, and we had all the big teams. Scampton. I’m trying to think of all the other ones in Lincolnshire. Had huge big teams of maybe thirty or twenty. And we went, I really honestly can’t remember where it was, whether it was held at Scampton. But we went, our little team we went there and stayed the night and we all went for a little walk round the villages outside. It was nice to see. And all these other big teams were out training. Anyway, the next day when it was the actual group athletics, to cut a long story short our little team of four won. I, I was good on hurdles and running and the four of us were good with the relay. Lynn was excellent on the, the half mile, and the other two did things like throwing the hockey ball and obstacle races and nippy races. They were, we were excellent and all these great big teams from the other camps. So, Lynn and I were picked to go down to Uxbridge again for the Flying Training Command Athletic Team. They had the finals at Uxbridge, and that was, I think early in ‘47. And we ran in that and I can remember running in the relay and I was the last man of our team, and it was such an exciting race. Lynn was always first off. She was an excellent runner. And I kept saying, ‘Don’t drop that baton.’ Anyway, we won our relay and that as a result of that we won the Flying Training Command and they came out with this great big cup and somebody poured champagne in it. And that was the first time in my life I’d tasted champagne. So, that was a very happy memory too. And, of course that’s the memory of going down to Uxbridge for hockey trials for the WAAF team and running with the Flying Training Command Athletic Team. I don’t think I’ve said about that ending up in Piccadilly, at Lyons. Well, we went there for supper on the way back before, before we went back to Kirton Lindsey. And you stayed overnight at the Salvation Army and got the train in the morning. Coming out of Lyons Corner House after our supper, it was winter and of course I had my great coat on and I was buttoning it up and my hat under my arm and just as I came out of the door an RAF military policeman put his hand on my shoulder and said, ‘Corporal, you’re improperly dressed.’ And it didn’t dawn on me that I hadn’t put my hat on yet. And it was most embarrassing. When I got back to camp I was called before the WAAF officer who asked, ‘What on earth were you doing? I have a report here that you were improperly dressed in Piccadilly after 10 o’clock at night. What were you doing?’ So, I explained and then I was most irate really and I said, ‘Well, it wasn’t, couldn’t possibly have been after 10 o’clock at night because we all had to be signed in at the Salvation Army Hostel by ten, so my signature’s there.’ So, I got off on a technicality. But if I hadn’t remembered that, the Salvation Army, that would have been on my WAAF record which sounded dreadful. And it was because I didn’t have my hat on. So, that was discipline in those days. So that, that was more or less that. And as, as I say we used to go to all the demob parties at the First and Last, which was the pub on the way up from the station to Kirton. Everybody stopped there halfway. Well, if you’d been sitting all the way from London on a kitbag and you were carrying a kit bag up that hill it was very — so people stopped there. So a lot of people have memories of the First and Last. A few, some years ago anyway when, when the landlord was retiring he very kindly gave me this big print that was hanging on the wall there as a memento. So, I’ve still got it hanging here. I had lots of, lots of fun there with all the demob parties where Morag the other wireless mech and I at Kirton used to drink a small glass of cider to last the whole evening while everybody else was getting a bit too merry [laughs] But it was nice to say goodbye to them all then. And that was more or less it. I was demobbed in ’47. My husband didn’t get demobbed ‘til forty — they were kept back out east and of course they were all very bitter about it as you know, they almost mutinied. Lord Mountbatten came out to speak to them and they were all turning their back on him, taking their hats off, doing everything to be put on a charge. He was telling them. They had been out there so long and people who had gone into the RAF with them had been home, demobbed and got jobs. Several of them got jobs in teaching and things like that. They got back and they were still at Wyton and still not demobbed. So they were very, very bitter about it all. These people that had been in Ceylon and the Cocos Islands. They felt very neglected and far from home. And Mountbatten was saying what grand men they were and he was booed. They thought they were going to have a riot on their hands. So, you don’t hear so much of that side. But they were, they were just stuck out there. They’d forgotten about them. But they used to fly. He was a radar mech but their planes flew over Burma and dropped leaflets [laughs] and he used to go with them and heave the leaflets out. But I don’t know. They were out there and they got all these horrible malaria, sprue, all these tropical diseases and they weren’t well. And a lot of them were very unhappy about the fact that the others who had joined with them were demobbed and in jobs back in Britain because they were in the European area. And of course the VE day was one thing but it was VE day. The Japanese war went on a little bit longer. So, that’s what kept them out there. Anyway, that’s all I can think of in that line. And I’ve always kept in touch. I kept in touch with Kirton in Lindsey, with this map group at Kirton Lindsey were very good. They did a lot of research. They’re the ones who told me eventually about the Bomber Command Memorial going up and when I wrote to them about my cousin Lawrence who had been [pause] he had done his initial training in this country. I’ve got all his letters that he wrote me because we were very close in the family, like brother and sister almost, and he always teased me about going into the forces. He was saying, ‘They want real he-men in the forces, not women.’ Joking letters. I’ve still have his fun letters, but he, he loved flying and his first initial training he remembered writing and saying he had flown down the Wye Valley, wasn’t it? What’s the gorge in the Wye? And looking down and thinking how beautiful it was. It was really beautiful from the air. And then I’ve got letters from Canada where he did his further training. And the descriptions there of the heat and the flying and of course by then I think they were in — well I’m trying to remember now. It wasn’t. He started off in a Tiger Moth in this country and then eventually graduated to all the different planes and then eventually to Harvards as everybody does. But America wasn’t in the war then but they went on tour. They got a weeks’ leave and they hitched all the way around America. They got, they got, they were made very welcome and they thoroughly enjoyed it. It was like a geography lesson the letter I got back about that. But he had an exciting time there. And then of course when he came back here they were put, I think to Waddington. The initial one and then sent to Scampton, and Scampton of course had, was having, I don’t know runways laid or something like that and so they moved the squadron over to Dunholme Lodge. And the farm there was made a, and I think it was I’ve got all the history of Dunholme. I’ve got everything about Dunholme Lodge. The farmer there [pause] it’s another long story but anyway Lawrence flew from Dunholme Lodge. And it was his twenty first birthday and he never came back. He flew out to bomb Krefeld in the Ruhr and they never know what happened. It’s no, it was never known. His name’s on the Memorial at Runnymede. And then I heard about the Memorial, the Bomber Command Memorial going up at Canwick. And I got, I was invited to that through being a relation of Lawrence’s and the Andersons and the other. Wilson who used to be at our Christmas parties. He was another one who did three tours of ops and on his very last tour disappeared over the Alps at Italy. He was a navigator so he went too. He was another one I used to remember. So I used to write about a lot of them. So, that was my connection with Bomber Command, but I was in Flying Trainer Command, and of course my husband was in Coastal Command. So, after the Canwick one I heard about Dunholme Lodge. David Gibson whose mother and father were very, belonged to this map group, he’s been one who’s done a lot of research for that and he’s, was very good. Sent me a lot of information which I had about my cousin. But still it was good of him. And he took me down. It took a long time to get up there here, from here, changing trains. It was quite a journey. But anyway he took me out to Dunholme Lodge and I met Mr and Mrs Wicks whose farm it is and it was their father’s farm then and they’re lovely people. And, and the, when I met them I heard, I got a letter later to say that the ’44 Squadron which was the squadron Lawrence was in was having a Memorial Service. They come down and have it on the airfield, what was the airfield, about every two years and would I like to go? So I said, ‘Yes please’, and I got this lovely letter from the farmer and his wife saying would I like to come and stay the weekend with them in their beautiful farmhouse. And they made such a fuss of me. I had a wonderful time. They were lovely people. And this little Memorial is down the end of the farm. I’ve got photographs of it and they’d got little plaques on it with, there are a few, they’d put this little Memorial there. And so I thought well my sister and I thought that we would contribute to have a plaque put on for Lawrence and the crew. And so they got that done just before this Memorial Service. So, I went to see that actually dedicated. So, that was very, very moving but oh I was, I’ve never met such kindly folk. Aye. It was. Anyway, so that wasn’t so very long ago now. About a year ago, but anyway at that time I wasn’t too well and they didn’t realise it but I wasn’t but it was like a holiday. Just being there and made an absolute fuss of. And also they opened the garden of that farm to the National Garden Scheme once a year. They open it, and it was the day, the weekend they were opening for, the day after it was open to the public. And the weather was beautiful. And I went down the night before in the evening after everything had happened and gone. Down to this little Memorial that they’ve got, in the sunset and it was all very moving. And it’s, it’s amazing who’s done it. They’ve got their own VC, 44 Squadron of course. He’s there with his crew on, on that Memorial too. So that was a very moving day and a very lovely memory. I was so glad that at least Lawrence’s name is on that and remembered. I know it’s, I’ve got a photograph of it on, it’s on the little plaque. It’s on the big memorial at Canwick. And but I was so glad I’d been to both but the little one on the farm is special in our family anyway. My sister was very pleased because she couldn’t get down. She’s, she’s permanently in a wheelchair and trouble with her knees and things so I had to write reports to her about it. But that’s more or less up to date [laughs]
CJ: So you were demobbed in 1947.
ML: ’47.
CJ: And your husband.
ML: Was demobbed the beginning of ’48. And we were married in June 1948. And of course his family came from Chiswick. His father and he were members of Kew Cricket Club actually, before they went into the [pause] but so I moved down to live in Chiswick, Gunnersbury Park area really. And our, my daughter Margaret Ann, my elder daughter was born in 1951. Oh I [pause] apart from doing all that I did a lot of Scottish country dancing at Fetter Lane with the Caledonian Society, and of course I joined St Columba’s Church at Knightsbridge. I’m still a member. I must be one of the oldest. I’ve been there since 1948 and I went up every year. Every year for the communion services. And it’s been a real, I don’t know, a haven for me. St Columba’s up in Knightsbridge over the years. And my, both the girls were christened there. Rosemary was born in ’58. She was seven years after Margaret Ann, and she was christened in the London Scottish Chapel which is in St Columba’s and Margaret Ann was, well she thought the world of the minister there. He was another one who was a padre. Decorated. Dropped with the troops and dropped with them and she was very inspired with him. But anyway, she became confirmed at St Columba’s and as I say Rosemary was christened in the London Scottish Chapel. St Columba’s was bombed during the Blitz and was burned to the ground, and they raised the money to build it up again. And we used to go to the Jehangir Hall in the Imperial Institute. Services there, and then they built the lower part, the hall. The underneath bit of the new St Columba’s and the Queen who was the queen mother it was, the Queen Elizabeth then came and she laid the foundation stone and as it built up as I say seven years later. Margaret Ann always said, ‘It’s not fair. Rosemary was christened in the London Scottish Chapel,’ she said, ‘And I was christened in the church house around in Cadogan Square.’ They hadn’t got the church built by then. But very happy memories of St Columba’s and they’ve been very thoughtful with me over these last months. They’ve been up to see me and I took them up to St Bart’s here which is a lovely little pilgrim’s chapel. I go there because it’s nice and quiet and rather peaceful and a little simple service, rather like a Scottish service. And they’ve been over the years. They’ve been very kind too.
CJ: And do you keep in touch with any of your former comrades?
ML: I don’t think there’s any of them alive now.
CJ: No.
ML: I seem to be the only. I seem to be the only one that [pause] especially as I say the WAAF. I think they’re all gone. But I joined the WAAF Association and I joined the Thanet group and they were all lovely ones. I’ve got masses of photographs of things we’ve done with them. But I think there’s one of them I know is still alive which I’m due to phone. She’s in a home in Canterbury, I think. But all the others have either gone over the years or gone to, there was two of them there who were in about 1939. They were wonderful. Kay, who ran the group, she was very good person but they laid up their colours and they’re in the church in, in Ramsgate. And after that just a few who were about used to meet sometimes over in Margate and have some lunch. But that sort of came down to about [pause] came down to about two or three and then of course I was very involved with golf, and it was always a Wednesday and Wednesday was the golf day. So these are the ones I had known but most of the people as I say it’s a matter of anno domini. The years go and I’ve got happy memories of lovely folk but there’s not a lot left.
CJ: Well, thank you very much indeed for talking to us today Margaret.
ML: Yes. I jumped about a bit, but I can’t remember it all in order.
CJ: That’s not a problem. We’ve got it all recorded. Thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Margaret Sinclair Longmate
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALongmateMS161019, PLongmatemS1601
Format
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00:42:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Longmate from Edinburgh came from a family with long links to the RAF. Her uncle had been in the Flying Corps in the First World War and various other friends and family joined the service during the Second World War. Therefore, it seemed obvious that when it came time Margaret would join the Women's Auxilliary Air Force. She began her training as a wireless mechanic and her first day in London she experienced a V-1 attack. For her twenty first birthday Margaret and three friends had the ultimate celebration feast of poached eggs on toast which made a welcome change from the dried eggs that were otherwise on offer. The cousin to whom she was very close was with Bomber Command. He was killed on his twenty first birthday.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
entertainment
ground personnel
Harvard
memorial
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Kirton in Lindsey
RAF Ternhill
sport
V-1
V-weapon
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1120/11611/PShackletonH.2.jpg
0790563fc62e7b551572d27dce6b2e22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1120/11611/AShackletonHL170629.2.mp3
deffa07f6b04fde87f3d4c28d76b63c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Shackleton, Henry Leslie
H L Shackleton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Henry Shackleton (b.1922, 68185 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 405 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Shackleton, HL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Henry Shackleton today for the International Bomber Command Centre's Digital Archive. We are at Henry's home in Kent and it is Thursday 29th of June 2017. Thank you, Henry for agreeing to talk to me today.
HS: It's a pleasure.
CJ: So, first of all Henry could you tell us please where and when you were born and what your family background was?
HS: My father and indeed my elder brother and I are all civil engineers. So when dad came back from Canada with my brother and my sister and he and mother landed in England, I was born in Hailsham which is on the outskirts of Eastbourne. So I’m English but my brother and sister were Canadian.
CJ: Okay. And did you go to school in Hailsham when you were old enough?
HS: When I was a year old mother took me up to Heysham. My father had decided to no longer be a civil engineer but looked at Butlins Holiday Camp and thought, ‘Ah. I'll compete.’ So he bought a castle in Heysham where he had the Morecambe Bay Holiday Campers. And therefore I grew up from the age of one to the age of ten with all the happy campers around me with my mother saying, ‘Darling, if they offer you a sweet you have to say no thank you twice. If they offer it a third time you can have it.’ The number of times I said, ‘Ah. Ah.’ And they went off, but I did get some sweets.
CJ: And did you have an interest in your early years in aircraft or flying?
HS: Just once. Mother and I went down to Blackpool where Gracie Fields was on show and there was a chap there who said, I can't believe it, ‘For ten shillings two of you can come up in a plane over the bay.’ I believe, certainly we did it, mother and I in this plane. And I said, ‘This is thrilling, isn't it?’ But that was the only bit I’d ever done before the war.
CJ: And when did you volunteer for the services? And why did you choose the RAF?
HS: Mother and I, just mother and I alone, my brother and sister were away at work or school just before the war. We were living near this house here at a place called Holmlea, Rhodes Minnis, and I was in the garden and mother called me in from the garden on September the 3rd 1939 and said, ‘Darling, come in. There's something on the radio.’ This was in the days before television. And on the radio there was a voice saying, and, ‘I am Mr Chamberlain and I have to tell you as the Germans have refused to withdraw from Poland consequently this country is at war with Germany.’ So I turned to my mother and I said ‘Hey, I’ve seen Spitfires above Rhodes Minnis. Do you think I could be a Spitfire pilot?’ And she said, ‘Darling, you're far too young. You're only seventeen.’ Anyway, I enquired and they said, ‘You can join The Air Force in Canterbury when you're eighteen and three months’, and I joined exactly when I was eighteen and three months saying, ‘I want to be a Spitfire pilot.’ ‘Oh no. You've got to do various other things including marching.’ A thing I found quite interesting in that first half year before I started being trained as a pilot we had to march to teach us what people did in the Air Force. Obeying orders. But we also were down in Torquay for a weekend break and there I was told that an RAF officer wished to interview me while I was down there. I didn't know it but it was to be an interview to see if I was of officer of material. But I didn't know it but boy did I say the right thing. I went in there and he said, ‘Sit down,’ he said, ‘You arrived here yesterday in Torquay.’ ‘That's right,’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And he said, ‘What did you do? Just go swimming?’ ‘No,’ I said, ‘As a matter of fact I paid ten shillings for a ride on a horseback.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I have two horses. I’ll tell you I have this model and I have another one here,’ and he told me all about his horses and I got a commission [laughs] Anyway, on we go to the next one. Such was life. Anyway, we did the roundabout and do our duties and I rose from aircraftsman second class to leading aircraftsman to go to Meir, Stoke on Trent where a Flight Sergeant Raffley was to be my instructor on Miles Magisters which is still my favourite little monoplane. Lovely little thing. He said, ‘I’m in the back. You're in the front. You’ll do what I bloody well tell you.’ So I did what he told me. After six and a quarter hours he said, ‘You can go solo.’ And then it rained. So you can't. And it rained for three or four weeks. He said, ‘You can't go up now,’ he said, ‘With that interval you've got to come up with me again.’ So I had to go up another three hours with Flight Sergeant Raffley. ‘Off you go on your own,’ he said. I went up, thrilled to bits, all on my own. And I waltzed around thinking gosh this is wonderful. Oh blimey, where's the airfield? And there was nobody with me to tell me and for the life of me I couldn't find that grass strip. Oh, there's a railway line. And I remembered there was a railway line near it so I went to the railway line and I got on it. And then to my horror above me I saw barrage balloons with wires going down on either side of the railway line to keep the Germans away from bombing it and me in the Miles Magister going where the Germans shouldn't be. And I thought, well I can't turn left or right so I carried on straight. Oh, there's the field. Thank heaven for that. Went down and landed. Thank God for that. So that was me solo. I was then sent to the RAF station. What is the head office? And there my instructor was a far more superior man. It was Flying Officer Raffley MC. Went to Cambridge University, ‘Shackleton, take your seat. And before you do anything else there's one big error the Royal Air Force people have. They insist upon saying, when they take over an aircraft, ‘you've got her’. I can assure you there is no need for the word ‘got’ in the English language so with my pupils, you ‘have her’. What he didn't realise, and nobody could ever tell him, noisy aircraft require a virtual ‘Got,’ which you could hear. If you said, ‘I’m sorry, I didn't quite get that,’ at which point you've crashed. Anyway, while we were with him we had to say ‘you've got her’. and I said ‘got’. He said, ‘Right. You qualify. You can get your wings now at RAF Cranwell College’, and I said, ‘Oh good. Spitfires?’ And I’d been trained on an Airspeed Oxford, a twin-engine bomber. ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘No. No. You and I together are going to be instructors. I'll be doing more. You'll begin. You have qualified as a flying instructor and we're going abroad I can't say where we're going because I don't know but we've to get in a train next week.’ The train doors were locked and we went from Middleton St George all the way up through England. Got to Glasgow. We were released from there, put on a boat and before we knew where we were we were in Iceland where I was in charge of the censorship. All the letters that were written there, and we were there three weeks I had to check as a nineteen year old and there was some, ‘Darling, I can't say where we are but it's an enormous clinker.’ So I had to put a line through it and tear it off. And we were there three weeks because there were three U-boats outside wanting to kill us. We had to wait ‘til they left. Then we were put on a huge vessel and where did we go? Canada. Where in Canada did we go? Where my brother and sister were born. And I was there a year and a quarter while my dear mother was being shelled in, near Lyminge. Well, Lyminge in Folkestone. She suffered from Doodlebugs. The house opposite was wrecked and four people killed. But not me. I was in Canada with pupils. Taking some pupils on a navigational trip up north to an RAF station. Well, it was a station up there at North Battleford. Have I got that right? Where my brother was born. Then turn right and go down to Regina where my sister was born. Then back to the base for Regina. I mean, I found it incredible. Now, I’m not going to record any of the things I said in confidence because the Royal Air Force wouldn't like it. Can I give you a tip off? Two of my pupils say, ‘Sir, can you loop an Airspeed Oxford?’ I am not going to tell you on this recording what my reply was. So on we go. We're released from that and I’m back in England. This time told although you're RAF and you've got a commission and you're now a flight lieutenant you are going to be with the Canadians with an English crew. And the thing I thought was first rate about the Royal Air Force and probably other air forces when you're building up your crew you as a pilot with other pilots are sent to a hangar in the square, in the squadron. And you stand in a group slightly separate from the other pilots and you look across the hangar and there's one group. They're rear, they're rear gunners, they're mid-upper gunners, they're navigators, they're pilot engineers, they’re engineers, there's the front tail gunner err the front gunner and, ‘You're the captain, get your crew.’ So I looked at one bloke and I said, ‘Will you join me tail gunner?’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘Can I take Bert because he's a mid-upper gunner? He's a pal of mine.’ ‘Yep. Come on Bert.’ So I took them on. I looked around. There was one bloke with a large forehead. I said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer?’ No. Flight navigator, that's it. Because of the forehead I thought the navigator. And Bert Ashford said, ‘Certainly, would be delighted.’ So he came and joined me. But the important thing was, and I did eighteen bomber trips with them and later on Pathfinders with them, I had chosen them so I could never complain. But one of them was chronic. He was the flight engineer whose job was not in any one place. He had to walk around the aircraft while we were on our bombing trip plugging in saying, ‘Skip, fuel okay.’ Walk a bit further, ‘Skip, water okay.’ ‘Skip, altitude seems to be alright, Skip.’ But every time, wherever he was, plug in and, ‘Skip.’ And if he didn't I'd say, ‘Oh, Dick where are you?’ Silence. I haven't heard a Dick in. Nothing. So I thought the heck with this. ‘Look, crew, forgive this but I’m going to try and alert him,’ So I waggled my wings like mad. Click. ‘Oh. What's wrong, Skip?’ I said, ‘It's you that's wrong. You’ve to keep in touch.’ ‘Oh. Sorry Skip.’ So, click, ‘I’m here now. Tail gun.’ That's all right. We were flying along and we did eighteen bomber trips with not one problem. Not one. Apart from one. We were at twenty one thousand feet which is the normal altitude for bombing and suddenly I saw a dark object which was very clearly a fighter. Without any warning at all to the crew I dived like mad. Dived down to earth, and halfway down, ‘Did you want me, Skip?’ [laughs] Oh boy. I said, ‘Just avoiding an enemy aircraft for God's sake.’ ‘Well, you waggled your wings. I thought you wanted me.’ [laughs] I said, ‘What did you do before the war, Dick?’ ‘Oh, I was delivering groceries on a bicycle.’ Oh God [laughs] Anyway, our crew held together and we got away with it no trouble at all on eighteen bomber trips. So I said to the crew, ‘Look, I'd like to be a squadron leader. Wouldn't you like to be a flight sergeant instead of a sergeant?’ ‘Oh yeah.’ I said, ‘Well, if we all volunteer, and I’ve been told we can because we've done so many trips now and I have so many flying hours.’ Normally the pilot has about two hundred flying hours. I had about eighteen hundred because I'd been training people. So, yes we volunteered and we went down to head office. Is it RAF Wyton, I think? Where the head office. But this time it was with the Canadians and it was great. We did four trips. Instead of dropping bombs we dropped a white flare where our Master Pathfinder had dropped his. We would have to follow. If there were a thousand bombers bombing his flare about eight hundred would probably achieve that but by that time, fifteen minutes later than his flare, the flare would be moved by wind. So my job was to go and drop another white flare where his had been, and I can assure you it's the rottenest and most dangerous job in the Air Force. What is it? You arrive fifteen minutes after all the main body. You drop a flare which illuminates you. The fighters of the enemy are all up by then. The searchlights are all focused. The guns are all poised. And Henry arrives, ‘Can you see me?’ Sure as eggs, fifth trip, fighter on starboard, fighter on port. I’m told later by my flight engineer who survived, that ‘You yelled out, “Abandon aircraft,” as the first fighter fired across the top of your cabin. I saw your cabin and the top of your cabin was wrecked.’ He'd got the Perspex at the top and wrecked it. ‘But you ducked your head and missed the bullets which went right along the leading edge of the port wing’, which meant the port wing had no lifting power. So it just sent me on my port down to Berlin. It was our fifth trip bombing or dropping flares on Berlin, and I dived down there and just sat there. I thought well you know this is hopeless. Suddenly the whole of the cabin gave way and I was sucked out into mid-air. Thank God. The wireless operator, no, the bomb, the who was it now? Bert Ashford the yeah the wireless operator air gunner. Anyway, he said he'd heard me say, ‘Abandon aircraft,’ and he thought well what's the, and he was suffering like all of us then without oxygen, what's the point of jumping out if you've nothing to eat? So with me going down to Berlin he took off his parachute in his cabin, undid it, opened a drawer, he told me this later when I saw him, took out a bar of chocolate, put it in his tunic, put his parachute on, ‘Oh. The Skip’s gone out of that bloody great hole.’ So, he jumped where I'd gone. He said he wasn't one minute before he was in the main street in Berlin with a German on either side, ‘For you the war is over.’ And that was him captured. Me, who's always been remarkably fortunate, I don't have horrid things like that. Where do I land? Well, what's the nicest place? A park. Yes. But where? Oh, in a bush for a soft landing. You know. And my parachute was trailed all over the bush. So I pulled in my parachute. It was two o'clock in the morning. Freezing cold. January the 31st, 1944. A year and a half before the war ended. So there was me in this bush thinking well I can't start moving now because it'll be light at about six o'clock. I think I'll wait over a day ‘til it's nighttime and then I'll go for a walk. During the day two dogs wanted to get me. They were on leads and the two Germans said, ‘Kommen sie mit’, and they just walked past me. The dogs saw me but the two Germans didn't. So I just sat there waiting till they'd gone by. First night, right, Henry, you're on your own now. Now you make for the Baltic. So I walked out of the park, went through a village, that was fine. Saw a railway line, thought, ‘Well, if I get on that and the truck goes to the Baltic I’m on. Dead easy.’ And the bloody thing taxied and it landed up underneath the signal box and I had to spend the whole of that day when daylight came lying on a, an oil tube, an oil pipe frozen to bits with a guard just above me, keeping out of his way. He didn't see me. The following night they shunted a little bit, then they stopped again. So I thought well I don't like this. So I got out and walked through my second village, and I got away with that. Ah, while I was stuck in my tree wondering how to pass the time I felt around. Oh, take the zipper off your trouser leg and put the, felt there in front of your chest. Take the other one put it behind you to keep warm. Oh, and there's a little booklet. I’ve never seen that. So in it, it said, “Where have you landed?” If it's France it's, ‘Bonjour. Comment allez vous. Vous avez [unclear].’ But page four is Germany and I'd landed in Berlin, and I’m not all that bright but I thought it must be there. So it said, “Guten morgen.” “Guten tag”, and down at the bottom with no pronunciation but down at the bottom, very odd thing was it, “Ich aber in eile” or was it, ‘Ich aber as eile?’ But it says, ‘I’m in a hurry’, and it worked. I walked through my second village. Passed a German. He said, ‘guten tag.’ I said, ‘guten tag.’ ‘til the end. Blinking cul de sac in Berlin. There was a, a wall across the road, so I had to walk back passing this chap again. ‘Oh ja’ I said, ‘Ich aber in eile.’ ‘Oh ja,’ he said and off I went. So that got rid of my second night. Third night my dear friends started bombing Berlin again which meant the alarms went and everybody went down their shelters. And I’m not too bright but I thought if I go down and be sheltered with them they're not going to like me very much. So I carried on walking, then the all clear went. Out came some children, saw this bloke all alone in the main street, walked round me and captured me. So I was captured by the school children and I walked with them. They took me to the mayor's house, and I do like recording the fact that the German women in particular were charming. Here was a young man, slightly injured. They bathed my face, they gave me coffee, they gave me — what was it? Something else they gave me. Oh sandwiches, and I said to them, ‘Danke schön. This is very good of you, and I hope in England when your sons are in my country I hope my ladies give the same to your pilots as well.’ And they said, ‘Ja, it's good.’ Then the door opened. In came a pompous little drunken German officer, ‘Heil Hitler.’ Two great big thugs with him with rifles. ‘Kommen sie mit. For you the war is over. Ha ha’. So, I went outside, got into this saloon car with a gas tank above it. They put me in the back seat with a revolver into each side of me. He was in the front roaring with laughter, happy as Larry he’d got a prisoner. And off they went through this park. As it happened to the city of Berlin. And do you know I said I’ve seen the film. I remember that film. You're halfway through then I get out, go into the woods and they kill me. I know it. The guns are waiting. So I waited. They must. They didn't. Not with me. Oh no. They take me there. Put me in a cell with a radiator. Lovely. But they won't speak to me for four days then. The idea is if they do nothing with you you'll be so keen to talk you'll talk. So when my turn came to be interrogated I went out there. There was a bloke sitting behind a desk and I went in. I said, ‘Flight Lieutenant Shackleton 68185, sir.’ So he said ‘Yes. Yes. We know that.’ ‘Where was your station?’ I said, ‘68185. Flight Lieutenant Shackleton.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You're one of those. Call in the other one.’ So the other door opened and there was Red Williams. ‘Blimey, skip. Oh. Sandwiches.’ He went straight to the sandwiches, bashed into them and the officer said, ‘I think you go. We have good material here.’ So as I walked away I said, ‘You speak very good English. Where did you learn it?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I played tennis in Bournemouth before the war.’ I said, ‘Oh, lovely. Did you enjoy it?’ ‘Oh yes. Very, very pleasant. Off. Off. Yes, my friend what are you going tell me now?’ Little Red, with his sandwiches, happy as Larry.
CJ: So, Red was from your crew.
HS: Oh yeah. He was one of my crew. The only one who lived. The tail gunner and the mid-upper were shot dead, and we heard about that. They, one was never found and since the war I’ve now three times been to the three graves in Berlin of that crew. I was there this year putting not only wreaths on each one but because the squadron, when we left them with the bomber lot gave me a whisky flask, the best of British luck. I poured whisky over each grave thinking they'd prefer it. And the interesting thing this spring when I did this some Germans came up to me and they said, ‘May we have the honour of shaking your hand,’ So I said, ‘Why on earth do you want to do that for?’ ‘You killed Hitler. We didn't and we should have done.’ So that's how the Germans are treating it now.
CJ: So was that —
HS: So that, they had me away from there I, you know, went to visit them. The war was over. Oh, I ought to tell you hadn’t I. I was then sent to Stalag Luft 3 in Poland where I was there for a year and a quarter. I could go into detail but it just overdoes it a bit. I’m in the bottom of two beds. There was always one bed above the other and when I got to mine, twelve of us in one room with, with an oven in the middle for cooking food. Jolly nice blokes, all RAF officers. The Red Cross were wonderful. We got food and we got books and things. We were treated well. And I studied geology. And it was all very pleasant. The only thing I didn't like too much above me every morning I would see “Pilot Officer Buchanan, 17 Liberton Street, Glasgow. WC2.” And that was his name. And I said, ‘Why have you put your name on all of these boards?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘If you don't put your name on they'll pinch them for the tunnels. And they give you a string. Oh no. They're not having my boards.’ So, I know his name. Way after the war, years later, married. We were in Glasgow and with my wife I went to 17 Glasgow, Wimpole Street Glasgow WC2 and out came George. Wonderful. He was the chief librarian in Glasgow. Anyway, that was me there. And I'd been there fourteen, fifteen months; suddenly the Germans who were very elderly old boys, the guards, one was called Fingers because he'd only two fingers. They were, you know old crocks really, but they had a rifle and knew how to fire it. And suddenly there was an announcement, ‘Raus. Raus. You have two hours to go. The Russians are advancing. Anything you carry you can have but two hours no more here.’ So after two hours with food and one darling, I’ve got it upstairs, a darling little bible which was given to me when I was in Canada by a cousin who said, ‘You keep this, it will help you.’ On every bombing trip and every long dangerous trip of any sort, car or whatever, I’ve always taken this little bible. And I also take the whisky flask. So there are two things I’ve always remembered and are still with me. Anyway, we start marching and I have a great sense of humour. I turned to one of the guards and I said, ‘Is that rifle heavy?’ ‘Ja,’ he said, ‘Me carry it?’ I said. ‘No. Maybe later. But right now I think I carry it.’ [laughs] And we had to make our way a hundred miles to Berlin, but part of the journey we did on a train. But we got to a camp and in that camp it was horrific. There were thirty, I’ve got it on the screen to show, I think it was thirty-eight thousand prisoners on the outskirts of Berlin behind, behind two rows of barbed wire. No hope of getting out. I saw a pile of potatoes. A man went to take one and he was shot dead. So I thought, ‘Right. You're not having potatoes lad.’ So I just wondered what the devil are we going to do? There were Poles there, there were nationalities. There were French, British, Canadians all stuck in this huge camp on the other side of the river from Berlin. And then a Russian tank appeared and on it was a Russian woman machine gunner. She was on the top of it. The tank went through the barbed wire, went along the inside and out again and four hundred of us got out immediately, crossed the bridge and was in American hands. Two lunches, one after the other. When I’d finished my second lunch all by myself, where the others went I don't know, but I was there and one of the Americans said, ‘Say, what were you flying?’ So I said, ‘A Lancaster.’ ‘Oh. Would you like me to take you to the Lancs?’ So, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Get in the back of my van, chum. Got your two loaves of bread? ‘Yep.’ So in the back of that he drove down an autoroute onto an RAF station, said, ‘Say fellas, I’ve got one of your pilots here.’ They said, ‘Great. We're going back to England this afternoon. Would you like — ' I said , ‘Would I like?’ I was back in England that afternoon. Wasn't that fabulous? With nobody else, there were no other prisoners or anything [laughs] and I’ve often said if I can meet that German (Russian) machine gunner I would really like to appreciate what she did. She let us out. So there you are. That gets me home. Pictures of the village having celebratory meals. What do you do? You go to university because you hadn't gone before. So I went to Leeds University and to the first meeting there I went to the Freshers’ Ball and able for the first four months or so to wear my RAF uniform. But all the competitive males were in civvies aged eighteen. In walks the president with his lady friend and says, ‘You shouldn't be in here, you fellas. You're supposed to be in the ball dancing.’ So I said, ‘I will if I could dance with this young lady.’ And the young lady said, ‘That is not the idea. I am with the president.’ Who did I marry? Her. Took three years but working on it, Bobby White married me. Which was very nice. And she said, ‘Well, I’ve got my honours degree. I’m going to Downing Street.’ And she, we always used to joke in our family that we all suffered from BO — Bobby Organizing. She was a very positive lass. And down in Downing Street the head man there said, ‘I don't understand it, I thought we had some people from Poland.’ They said, ‘Oh yes. Yes. Oh, they've all been sent off to Bradford, I think it is.’ ‘Well, who sent them?’ ‘Oh, this young lady down below.’ And they, ‘Bloody hell. Call her up.’ He says, ‘I’m running this place, not you.’ Anyway, Bobby was down there for a year and she said, ‘When you get your degree I will then marry you.’ I failed the degree. So her parents said, ‘He's failed the degree. You don't need to marry him.’ ‘Oh no,’ she said, ‘I’m marrying a man. Not a piece of paper.’ So we did get married, and a year later having been married to Bobby with a son I then got my degree. It took a bit of doing but I got it. So there you are. That's the end of my story I think.
CJ: Well, what, what work did you do after the war?
HS: Oh, my brother was a civil engineer. My father was one. And it's a lovely career. I enjoyed it thoroughly. And just for a joke I say, ‘Well, I’ve wrecked a dam so I’ve built a dam. I’ve wrecked an oil refinery so I’ve built an oil refinery, you know. I’ve wrecked many houses and I built several hundred.’ But it's been a good life. My wife loved it as well, and when our children went to boarding school we travelled the world. And I couldn't recommend a better career. So there we are. That's it.
CJ: And how do you feel Bomber Command were treated after the war?
HS: Well, you didn't want to make a fuss. You were glad to be alive. Five of your crew were dead. But yes, they were the glamour boys. And we just had to say, ‘Oh well, if I'd been a Spitfire pilot I'd have been one of them.’ But we were, we kept quiet. And then somebody said, ‘Look, have you got a few hundred quid, old boy?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ So I said, ‘What would you like?’ They said, ‘Well, two hundred and fifty quid. Something.’ You know. Two. What was it? Two hundred and [pause] two thousand five hundred quid I think it was. I said, ‘Would that be okay?’ ‘Yes. We may be back for more. But if we can get all Bomber Command to give us that we can have our own monument. And we will have one.’ We got one and the Queen came to open it. So we said there we are, we've got one now. But we had to arrange our own. It's fair enough. They were the glamour boys. And I mean a lot of ours were killed too. It's just the way of life.
CJ: Can I just recap on your squadron? So, your first squadron where you did eighteen ops at Middleton St George was 419.
HS: Moose squadron. Yes. A Canadian Moose squadron.
CJ: Yeah. Okay. And which aircraft were you flying there?
HS: Oh, Halifaxes.
CJ: Halifaxes.
HS: Which I think you'd probably like me to say, I mean it was the only bomber I knew. I’d been in a Whitley and I’d been in a little trainer, the Airspeed Oxford. So, you know, the Halifax was okay but when I got onto the Lancaster it was lively. It was airborne. It was mobile. With the Halifax it was a tank. You got airborne, you drop your bomb and you come home. There we are. And then I went to another squadron which is also Canadian, and they were, the Canadians were very good. The only thing is on my fourth Pathfinder trip one of the things they did in the Air Force stations almost every night, they cut us off from the outside world by telephone at 6pm. They didn't just do it when we were bombing. They did it most nights so that the Germans didn't know what we were doing. If they only did it when they were bombing it would be useful. So 6pm couldn't ring home. And there was another night, 6pm, ‘Oh you’re wanted in the squadron room.’ You go in there. There are the rest of the air crew all with our leaders being told what we're doing. And, now what was it? The Australian who was the group captain, Don — Harris I think it was. Was it? I think it was that. Anyway, he was the officer commanding. The Australian Group Captain. Gordon Ramsay? Oh lord. This is bad for this isn't it? Let's say Donald Harrison. Hope for it. Anyway, he said, ‘Any questions?’ So, I said, ‘Yes. I’ve been on four trips and this is our fifth with Pathfinders and we go on the darkest of nights with no lights. Surely there's a risk of collision.’ ‘Oh yes. Yes. I expect to lose twenty of you out of a thousand but I can assure you if you had lights on I'd lose the whole bloody lot of you. Any other question?’ Yeah. I said, oh thanks a lot.
CJ: And did you have any adventures?
HS: Don Harris, I think it was. What?
CJ: Did you have any adventures with the Canadians on the squadron when you weren't on operations?
HS: Oh, you're talking about the car, aren't you? Yes. My darling mother. When I was in the Air Force, after I'd gone home on leave once, she said, ‘Darling, I can't get any fuel for our car’, and it's an Austin 7. It's BV 3252, “Barkis is willing”, I call it. ‘Would you like it, because in the Air Force you probably get some fuel.’ So I drove from Rhodes Minnis down in Kent all the way up, way up to Middleton St George. And the Canadians were thrilled when they saw it. They had never seen a car so small. I was in bed one night in the squadron, with the Halifaxes and they said, ‘Shack, I think you better come downstairs.’ Two o'clock in the morning. Past the lesser rank, into the main lounge. Mother's car was there dripping oil on the carpet. The wing commander was in the front seat pressing the horn which was damn nearly flat. An HP Sauce bottle in the radiator. A picture off the wall in the back seat and the squadron, in pairs all behind saying, ‘Tally ho.’ And I said, ‘Oh, great,’ I said, ‘You will put it back in the morning.’ ‘Oh yeah. We'll put it back in the morning.’ The following morning the group captain in charge of the squadron said, ‘Would that chap Shackleton come and see me.’ So, I went in. I said, ‘Flight Lieutenant Shackleton.’ So he said, ‘I take it you know there's a war on.’ So, I said, ‘Yes. I understand that.’ ‘Well, will you see that bloody Austin 7 is out of the hangar. It's getting far more attention than any of the Halifaxes. Out.’ ‘Sorry sir’. And that was that. But mother's car made us a very happy crew. We would go pub crawling when we weren’t bombing. It was a lovely present from her and we never damaged it. That's it I think.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today.
HS: Blathering but isn't it a —
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Henry Leslie Shackleton
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AShackletonHL170629
Format
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00:39:25 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Henry Shackleton listened to Chamberlain’s speech on the radio and hoped to be a Spitfire pilot. He began his training and was selected as a flying instructor and was posted to Canada. On his return to the UK he was posted to his operational squadron 419 at RAF Middleton St George. He then went on to join the Pathfinders. He was shot down over Berlin and became a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft 3.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Poland--Żagań
England--Durham (County)
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01-31
405 Squadron
419 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
final resting place
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
Magister
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Middleton St George
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1123/11614/PSimmondsJE1701.2.jpg
618f3494008f7e19b194a907f9ca6882
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1123/11614/ASimmondsJE171114.1.mp3
75368cc2130c56e3cb7dcd43cae774fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Simmonds, Jack Edward
J E Simmonds
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Jack Simmonds (1920 - 2020, 67595 Royl Air Force). He flew operations as pilot with 77 Squadron until he was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Simmonds, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Jack Simmonds today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Jack’s home and it is Tuesday the 14th of November 2017. Thank you, Jack for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Jack’s son, Paul. So, Jack, first of all perhaps could you tell us where and when you were born please and what your family background was?
JS: Yes. Yes. Firstly, I was born on the 8th of December 1920 and I was born in Gillingham in Kent and my father was a serving officer in the Royal Air Force. We, he had moved around a great deal and at that particular stage my mother had bought a house in Gillingham and that’s why I was born there. Otherwise we have no connection at all with that particular area. Fairly early on, when I was about five or six my father was posted to Egypt, and we moved out there and I stayed there for six years. I went to school in Victoria College in Alexandria and came back to the UK. As I said I was about six years, and we came back to Gillingham in Kent. I went for a short period to King’s, sorry to the Mathematical School at Rochester and when my father was posted again as also as people do we wondered around the UK following, following the parent. And my father was posted to Halton near Aylesbury and I spent about a year at Aylesbury Grammar School. Subsequently he was posted down to Worthy Down in Hampshire and we moved down to Winchester. I spent really the rest of my schooling at Peter Symonds School in Winchester, and I boarded there for a while when my father was posted away from Winchester to Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. I left school at the age of eighteen from, from Winchester and at that time was 1939 and the war was just about to start. After some discussion with my parents, I didn’t want to get conscripted into the Army or the Navy so I went to Oxford and volunteered to become a pilot. Now, it was difficult at that stage to select what category of aircrew you wanted to join but I was fortunate that, presumably because of my connection with the Air Force, they agreed that I should be nominated for pilot. Now, after that very little happened. I spent nearly six months at Selwyn College in Cambridge where they, I suppose tried to indoctrinate us in what the Air Force was about and doing some odd things like stripping down a machine gun and that sort of thing. And after that I was posted to — I can’t remember my number. I think it was 11 Elementary, Elementary Flying Training School at Coventry, and I obviously learned to fly and was taught flying on Tiger Moths. Now, at that stage of the war where the air force was extremely short of pilots, they were being shot down and killed all over the place, and for some reason or other I was not sent from Elementary Flying Training School to Flying Training School. They for some reason decided that they would try and see if they could avoid the elementary, the Flying Training School stage. So we were sent, about six of us from, from Coventry — or not. No. We weren’t all from Coventry. They were from, I think around the country, down to Abingdon. To the, I think it was number 11 Operational Training Unit. I’m not quite sure of the number. And we were taught, we were then presented with the fact that we were going to go straight on to the operational aircraft. the Whitley. From the Tiger Moth straight to Whitley. And we spent, in fact really we were quite an embarrassment because we were just airmen. We weren’t NCOs. We weren’t officers. We couldn’t use the sergeants’ mess, couldn’t use the officers’ mess. So, eventually they cleared a couple of married quarters and gave us those and allocated us a corner of the sergeant’s mess to eat and so on. I stayed there until I was qualified and in that same time I got my wings. And I stayed at Abingdon for probably about four months, I can’t remember exactly until I was qualified as a, as a Whitley pilot and then posted to 51 Squadron in Dishforth. I did my first couple of operations. My first operations were from Dishforth, and after about, I don’t know how many months — probably two or three months, I was commissioned. I was — by the way when I left Abingdon I was then made a sergeant. So I was a sergeant at Dishforth and then suddenly I was commissioned and moved, posted to Topcliffe, 77 Squadron. They also, of course had Whitleys. There was two squadrons there. 77 and 102 I think. The — I started my operational flying there obviously and on about my seventh or eighth one, I can’t remember, operation I was shot down over the Ruhr and we had a little bit of a problems maintaining our — by the way my navigator was wounded when we were caught by anti-aircraft fire. He got a lump of flak through his chest and so we obviously couldn’t bale out because he was flat out on the floor. And we went on for about half an hour or so on one, on one engine and eventually we, that failed and we crash landed in a sort of a swamp, about, I don’t know how many miles, about, about twenty miles short of Eindhoven I think. The, the swamp itself was not quite deep enough to sink but nearly, and I remember getting out and going around the back, getting the back door open and trying to smash the IFF thing that we were told to try and destroy if we had a chance. And during this period we got the navigator out and sat him on the top of the fuselage. He was still alive, and by that time there were Germans who apparently, we subsequently found had been following us by radar, Germans coming up the road which was about, probably about a couple of hundred metres from where we landed. And they took us to a radar station and then I went off to jail in Rotterdam. And I was there for — I don’t know really, probably three, two or three weeks. And the interesting thing about that was we were, I was interviewed by a so-called Red Cross person who offered me cigarettes and things and then tried to, to find out where I came from and me and my squadron who — you know. Trying to interrogate, and then after about three weeks in jail I was sent down to Frankfurt to the — I think it was a reception camp. And I remember being quite, I suppose shocked by the fact that some of the inmates there had settled into the, to the arrangements in the camp and were apparently cooperating I suppose with the locals. The only chance, the only time they tried then to, to interrogate me was at, for some reason they removed all my clothes and I was in this room and this, this Hauptman, a major [pause] He was a Luftwaffe major, immaculately dressed in white and boots and all that and tried to investigate where I came from and who I was and where, you know what the names of my crew were, and what my, my target for that night was and so on. Just generally tried to, to find out information. The next thing that happened about six or eight of us were shoved on a train and sent down to Salzburg. We were in — I can’t remember the name of the — I think it was Oflag something 6. I don’t know. So, it was army. It was army officers there and they were again a bit settled in their ways. They were a little bit resentful of, of half a dozen young and feisty aircrew coming in. We stayed there for, I can’t remember, say three months. I don’t know. And then we were sent to Leipzig. Now, Salzburg to Leipzig was a long way [laughs] and we went unfortunately by cattle truck, and I think we took seven days, and it wasn’t a very pleasant time as you imagine. When we got to, to the camp at Leipzig it had just been evacuated by Russian prisoners of war and was really derelict. There was nothing there. Virtually. And I know one thing that I had obtained when I was down at Salzburg was that I met a friend of mine who was an army officer who I had known some couple of years before. And he managed to obtain for me a nice blanket. A pale blue blanket which, I enjoyed mine. And I got to Leipzig. The first thing they did, one goon said, ‘That’s mine.’ and whipped it. The only thing that really strikes me about Lubeck was that it was bare. You know, it was very, very austere. We, we were very, very badly treated there. Very poor food. In fact we managed to catch the camp cat and cooked that. We went from there to Warburg to another army camp. That was about, Warburg was about the centre of Germany somewhere. I’m not quite sure. I know a lot of army, army people there. They were all, of course they were all officers and most had been, been there since, since 1939/40. That sort of time. We were there for, I don’t know probably six months at least when we upped again and were sent off to Poland. We went to a place called Posen (Poznan?) I think it was in Poland. Which was not very far from Danzig. About forty miles south of Danzig. The, the terrain there was very, very soft and sandy, and I know that particularly because digging tunnels was very, very difficult. You, you were going through the ground and you had behind you had [unclear] and that was very scary. We stayed there for perhaps [pause] perhaps a year. I don’t know. But we were posted or were posted, sent off to Stalag Luft, Stalag Luft 3. Now, people first, everybody says to me, ‘Did you go to Stalag Luft 3?’, and I said, ‘Yes’, and they said, ‘Were you in the big escape?’ And people didn’t understand that in Stalag Luft 3 there were two camps. The North Camp and the East Camp, and I was in the East Camp, and the big escape took place from the North Camp. The only escape of significant importance I think from our place was the two that got away in the horse. The — we used to take it out every day and pop it in the middle of a field and little did they realise that when we carried it out we had two people in them, and we put it down in the same place and they were digging a tunnel out and —
CJ: This was the wooden exercise horse if I remember.
JS: The wooden horse. Yes. And we were fairly, it was fairly easy to dispose of all the tunnels there because when we carried the, the wooden horse out to the playing field the, there were big paths through sort of sacks we’d made of our bed blankets and we could walk around the perimeter track and sort of let this go. So all the rubbish that they had dug from that tunnel was disposed around the camp. These two were successful. They got out and I think both of them made, made it to Sweden, I think. I think, and I think one was Swedish at any rate. We stayed there. I was in Stalag Luft 3 for about two years, and one night they, because by that time the movement of the war the Russians were, were approaching from the east. And incidentally in where I was in the, in Stalag Luft 3 we had what we called JH which stands for Jimmy Higgins. Anybody who’s been in Stalag Luft 3 East camp would know who that is because we’d arranged — we had a boffin who had got, bribed the guard to bring him bits of wireless equipment and we’d built alongside a table a radio. And so we knew exactly what was going on from UK, and every night, at whatever time it was we used to close down the place. Make certain there were no, no ferrets underneath there. People. Ferrets who wandered around looking for tunnels, and they used to give us an update of the UK news. So, although the Germans were, were propagating all the news over the biggest tunnels we actually knew what was really going on. We left there one, I think Friday night in, in February I think it was when the Russians were approaching, and the Germans decided to walk us out and we walked from there to [pause] I’m trying to remember the name of the place. A place called Luckenwalde which was about, I suppose about thirty kilometres south of Berlin. And we hadn’t been there very long and again I don’t know how long that was before a Russian small tank group probably consisting of six Soviet tanks arrived, and we fortunately had a Russian speaker. Somebody within, within our group. No matter what you wanted. Could speak Swahili or whatever. There was always somebody there because you know they gathered the aircrew from quite a wide range of, of population, and he was dealing with the, with the young I suppose. He was a lieutenant and I can remember being very amazed that all the tanks, these six or so tanks covered with people, Russians, and he said half of them were females and you couldn’t tell. And he said, one of the things he said was that he had great trouble in in communicating with his troop because they didn’t all speak the same language. Some came from Uzbekistan or somewhere. They spoke, didn’t speak Russian, and so he had great trouble. I know we had great difficulty with one of their, the Russians who decided he wanted to take watches, and he went around some of the officers and sort of said, ‘Your watch’, and we complained to this young lad, this young officer, and he said [unclear] and so he called this fellow. This fellow had a whole heap of watches at the time. And they took him out and shot him. Bang. One of the things that was extraordinary that happened that one of the tanks decided to go around the camp taking down all the barbed wire. Just tore the lights and the communications, everything with them. The lot. So, we really were, we were really a bit concerned whether the locals were going to be friendly or not, and I can remember one morning when we were sort of, we were free really. We could have gone anywhere. We went off to a building we could see about a half a mile away and it turned out to be one of these army stores and I could have picked up all sorts of gorgeous things there. Like, do you know the lovely, those lovely red flags they had in Germany with the big swastika on the bottom? But they were much too heavy to carry. But I did pick up a few, a few German — not medals but they were, they were campaign things, and I’ve still got those somewhere. We, we stayed there sort of really in limbo for a while. And I was down on the gate. We tried to maintain a semblance of, of a gate when some Americans arrived in a, in a, I think it’s a scout car, you know. One of the things that you drove. You drive one way or the other. And so two of us got on that one and they took us back to their base and then took us up to Brussels, and I flew from Brussels back to the UK. And that was sort of my war.
CJ: Very interesting. Thank you. So, what happened to you when you got home then and what did you do following on from that?
JS: Well, the end of the war I was sent up somewhere. I can’t remember where. Up in the Midlands. Really, I suppose to rehabilitate myself. And they put us all around the place like down a coal mine and up a and up a steel mill and those sorts of things. And eventually I decided that I would attempt to stay in the air force. And they sent me to, to Cairo. And I was at the headquarters in Cairo for about six months and that started to fold up and then I was sent to, to Lydda which is now Lod, in Palestine as the station adjutant. And I stayed there for about — oh I don’t know. Six months. Until they decided, the Air Force decided to give me a permanent commission in the Air Force. And I went from there to the army really. I was sent as the adjutant of an army cooperation squadron, air squadron which was flying Oxfords. And so I spent about three — oh more than that I think. Probably a year or more with the army. Flying officers all over Palestine and it was very fortunate really in a way because you had your own private aeroplane really. I used to fly off to Oman for the weekend and down to the Canal Zone for the weekend. You know, that’s as if I had a taxi of my own. Then I was very, very sports minded at the time and I was playing hockey for the squadron against another army unit and the Irish Fusiliers I think it was, and the goalkeeper smashed me across the face and knocked my front teeth out. And they decided to send me home to try and get that fixed up. And so that ended my, my time in the Middle East. And when I got back to the UK having been fixed up with some teeth, they sent me up to somewhere. Wyton or somewhere, to fly Wellington, Wellingtons, Wellingtons. Well, I converted on to Wellingtons then. Having done that they sent me to up, further up to Yorkshire to convert onto the replacement for the Lancaster which was the Lincoln, and of course the Lincoln was never introduced into the Air Force. Although I did about a hundred hours or a hundred and fifty hours on Lincoln. That’s really, they withdrew it for some reason or other. And I was sent down to, to Calshot to convert to flying boats and I flew Sunderlands. I converted on to Sunderlands there. Then after conversion was posted to Pembroke Dock. 201 Squadron. And I stayed there for a couple of years I suppose when we, we did a Cook’s Tour of, of America in the flying boat. We went to Newfoundland and Iceland and Newfoundland and Virginia and Jamaica and so on just going really on a jolly. Whilst I was at Pembroke Dock I was flight commander of the squadron because our squadron commander had had gone a bit — he, taking off one night he hit a, hit something with, with his throat and knocked that off and he went a bit queer so I was flight commander of the squadron and they one day they came in about, about Battle of Britain time asking for an aeroplane to go up to the Thames. So being flight commander I said, ‘That’s mine.’ So, I went up there and met the Port of London Authority and they drove me up and down the Thames awhile on one of their boats and I selected somewhere to land down near Greenwich. And I landed for Battle of Britain weekend at Greenwich and this [unclear] from the Port of London Authority met me and led me all the way up to Tower Bridge and they opened Tower Bridge for me [laughs] And they’d already put a buoy just outside Queen’s Gate and I moored up there and stayed in the Tower of London with the, the commander. I can’t remember what they were. The Scots Guards, I think. I can’t remember. Stayed there for six months. Sorry, six days, and then we, then all we did was return I think. We just about turned and drove back down to Greenwich and took off and straight over Buckingham Palace. Right down the Mall. And then I went back to, to Pembroke Dock. And after Pembroke Dock I was promoted there, and sent to St Mawgan as the chief ground instructor of the Maritime School there. And I stayed there for [pause] I don’t know, six months, a year, and then I was posted to the Navy in Portland. They had what they called an Access B tactical teacher. Which our job, our job was to work out the, the destroyers for the Navy. And we had a large building in which we laid on games and I had a — my colleagues were a submariner and task officer torpedo anti-submarine and myself as the airman. And we used to play games for them and had a great screen and projected all the activities while they were closed up back somewhere in the, in the back of beyond. And then having run games for them we would then give them what’s up, what they should have been doing and that was — I spent again a year, two years at, at Portland doing that job. Then I went to Saffron Walden which was part of the Royal Air Force Technical School. I spent a year there doing a signals course, and the object of the exercise was to, to produce a band of officer who could act as, as a liaison between the technician and the aircrew. And so we went for a year. We wandered all around the country and halfway around the world too looking at radars and communications systems and all that rubbish. And then, then I was posted to, to a job at Northwood in Middlesex, and I stayed there for probably about four months or more. Maybe six months. How long were you, were we at Northwood?
PS: We missed, we missed out Cyprus dad.
JS: Oh God. I went from — no went from —
PS: We went from Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Medmenham. We went — just a minute. We went from Portland to, no we went we went from Debden the school, Technical College, to Medmenham and then Medmenham we went to, to Northwood.
PS: Cyprus. Medmenham to Cyprus.
JS: Cyprus. Cyprus. We stayed there for what, two years?
PS: Two and a half years. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And I came back from there, and —
PS: Did six months in West Malling.
JS: Yeah. Well, I wasn’t posted there.
PS: No. It was just a stopover.
JS: I was only there for accommodation because we got a married quarter there. And then from there I went to, to Northwood. Stayed in Northwood for a while.
PS: That was two years.
JS: Was it two years? Yeah. And then I was posted to the Air Ministry to, to be sort of a PA to the, he was an army general who was head of the Joint Services Communications.
PS: We went from Northwood to Lindholme.
JS: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t. I went to this job in the, in the, in the Air Ministry which was, really it was a [unclear] I didn’t like at all and I got, I got on to the, to the Air Ministry, the people in the in P staff in the Air Ministry and said, ‘I want out’, and they said, ‘You can, if you wish to, retire.’ So, I said, ‘Right. I’m going.’ And I retired from my job in the Air Ministry and I came, we bought this house. I came down here. I got a job. Incidentally, before I decided to leave the Air Force I decided to find out a little bit about business and, you know trying to get a job. And so I went to, I think it was the South West College to do an HNC in Business Studies and just after that the, I think it was Wilson started the Open University and I joined that as well and got a Bachelor of Arts and that in Sociology and Economics. And later on when I was again working down in Maidstone I joined Kent University and got a Masters in Management. But I jump from leaving the Air Force to getting a job. I joined a management consultancy in London and spent probably nearly six months or more than that. More like three years wandering around the country doing jobs for them. All sorts of investigatory things like, for instance I went to, to a, an architect in London and they said to me we want to set up a new salary scheme. And so I spend my time, you know interviewing all the locals and deciding what I think [unclear] I did some work in local authorities. I worked in a number of, of — I worked down in Brecon. I worked in many of the London boroughs and after I’d been there for a while I was getting a bit fed up with moving around again like I’d done in the Air Force and I found a job in Maidstone as the personnel manager of the Borough Council down there. I stayed there for five years I think and I retired completely from there.
CJ: Very good.
JS: Then I played golf for a while.
PS: For a long time.
JS: For a few years. And then I became too old to play golf.
CJ: One question about aircraft. Coming back to your RAF times, given the experience you had on the later types, how did they compare with the Whitley that you were flying during the war?
JS: Oh. The Whitley was antediluvian. I mean it was so slow. It had no, no navigation device at all. No Gee. No H2S. Nothing like that. So, you were relying on DR really. Dropping a flare out and taking a drift and trying to calculate where you were on your course and speed calculator. You could carry a four thousand pound bomb. With that on board you could get to probably ten thousand feet. Twelve thousand feet perhaps if you were lucky. You could get about a hundred knots out of it [pause] downwind. No. It was, it was a terrible aeroplane. Awful. And it was so vulnerable you had a, you had a rear gunner, you had an upper gunner but night-time you couldn’t see a night fighter, you know. The, the defence. You were absolutely defenceless really and the attrition rate was very high.
CJ: And after the war were you able to keep in touch with people you knew from your squadron?
JS: No.
CJ: Or from the prisoner of war camps?
JS: No. No. I tried once to go to a Prisoner of War dinner in London. And it was really a failure because they’d all dispersed to other things and you had nothing in common anymore.
CJ: Was there a Squadron Association?
JS: I didn’t follow it up at all.
CJ: And how do you think Bomber Command were treated after the war for those — ?
JS: I never had a problem personally but I think that one of the things that one understood about Bomber Command was that they felt that they were sort of aggressive rather than, rather than defensive. But I mean Fighter Command are completely different or Bomber Command were. Well they’re not — I don’t think they appreciated what we were trying to do. Anybody. I never had any trouble personally.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for speaking to us today.
JS: That’s alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Edward Simmonds
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASimmondsJE171114, PSimmondsJE1701
Format
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00:49:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Simmonds was the son of an RAF serviceman. As a result his childhood was spent moving around a great deal including a few years in Egypt. He joined the RAF and began training as a pilot. He joined 51 Squadron as a Whitley pilot at RAF Dishforth before transferring to 77 Squadron at RAF Topcliffe. Coming under attack the navigator was injured and so was unable to bale out forcing Jack to crash land. The surviving crew became Prisoners of War. He was sent to Stalag Luft 3 where he took an active part in the Wooden Horse escape.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
51 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Dulag Luft
Lincoln
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Dishforth
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Topcliffe
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 3
Sunderland
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/PSmithAP1801.2.jpg
5005da2dc1fa3c5fe6b15887d2696a7a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/ASmithAP180103.1.mp3
6e18c214c8d145f8259a33f8e0f4ec50
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Arthur Peter
A P Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Smith (1923 - 2018, 1808854 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, AP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Arthur P Smith who is usually known as Peter today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Peter’s home in Kent and it is Wednesday the 3rd of January 2018. So thank you, Peter for agreeing to talk to me today. Perhaps to start the interview you could tell us about your background. Where and when you were born and what your family background was.
PS: Yes. Right. I was born at Wateringbury just outside of Maidstone and my mother and younger sister were working on a farm I’m afraid but that was the way it was in those days. And I stayed there at school at Nettlestead and Wateringbury until I was nine. And then we moved to Paddock Wood where my mother had two sisters because my mother had about nine or ten sisters altogether. So we were all trying to get roughly together. And I went to Paddock Wood School from nine until I was fourteen which was the time in those days practically everybody left school. Boys and girls. And when I was fourteen, in Paddock Wood they had a wood work shop where lots of younger boys could learn woodwork which was quite a good thing in those days and we carried on doing that for two or three years. Then the war started I’m afraid, and you would not believe it but we started making army huts. And I’ve never seen so many army huts in all my life which were going all over England. So of course they were calling up, all the boys for service life and they had to have somewhere to live which was, that was where our army huts were going. And we carried on doing that as, all the time I was there. So then in 19 — the beginning of ’41 a friend of mine, we decided to join the Air Cadets but we had to go to Tunbridge Wells which was a fair cycle ride during the blackout in those days. So we had to go on a Sunday and one day in the week. So, but in the middle of June to July we happened to be going on a Sunday lunchtime and all of a sudden there was a, well it was a dogfight between Germans and English right over our heads at a place called Matfield. I shall never forget it because we sat on the side of the road for about two hours listening to the Battle of Britain and we couldn’t believe it. All of a sudden there were horrible chink chink clink clink and a pile of ammunition hit the road which luckily didn’t hit us so we did worry too much about it. But that went on for sort of two or three hours then. We just sat there until it finished. But in 1941 we, we joined in those days was the Air Defence Cadet Corps. But in 1941 they started the new ATC which a new squadron started at Tonbridge. So we could go there by train so we didn’t have to cycle to Tunbridge Wells anymore. So I joined that and because I’d been in the Air Cadets for quite a long time I found myself being a sergeant very soon. It was only for mostly drill and that sort of thing. So, and then I stayed there ‘til March. March ’43. But in the meantime in the middle of ’42 I’d had a medical but they said because at the moment we haven’t got room for training we’ll put you on deferred service which they gave you a little silver badge which you wore but two people still kept asking, ‘Why aren’t you in the service?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m waiting to go,’ so which I did in March ’43. So, as most people know when you joined aircrew in London it’s so many things to do. Medicals. What you know? Do you know? What you’ve got to know. And we had two weeks in London and then I went to Bridlington for six weeks doing all sorts of training. Aircraft recognition, Morse Code and drill and how to take a gun to bits and put it together and all that sort of thing. And then I think I think I had a weeks’ leave from that and then I went up to Bridgenorth for another six weeks training which was a bit more advanced than what we’d already been doing. And then I finished that six weeks and then they decided that they had a new Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, just outside of Inverness. So I ended up there for another six weeks where I did my six weeks air gunner’s course. So when it ended up, it was a beautiful summer that year and I remember we used to go out flying and the weather was so lovely I don’t think ever once did we have to cancel anything because the weather was beautiful. And all in all by the time we finished I went from an AC2 joining the Air Force to four and a half months and I was a sergeant air gunner, and most people couldn’t believe it because I had a job to believe it as well. But, and then we came home, had some more leave and then I went up to Lichfield which, I think is in Lincolnshire. And I just couldn’t believe it because we went at this, you know and there was about four or five hundred different air crew. Pilots, navigators, wireless ops, bomb aimers. Everything. And everybody was just wandering around smoking, chin wagging, coffee when you could find one. And then I was standing over at a tree looking out over the woods and these two Canadians came over. A pilot and navigator, and they came over, started chatting and the pilot said, ‘Hey mate,’ something like that, because he didn’t know my name, ‘Would you like to fly with me? Or my navigator, and we’ve got a bombardier over there so that’s three Canadians. Would you like to fly with us?’ So I didn’t know any better so I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll fly with you.’ ‘Ok,’ he says, gave him my name and everything and they took it down and went over and saw, there was a couple off officers sitting at this table writing everything down. And then they said, ‘Oh, well, come and we’ll introduce you to the wireless operator.’ And then that, at the moment was all our crew which was five. Just the navigator, pilot and bomb aimer, wireless op and me, the other gunner. And then they said, ‘Right. All get in a lorry,’ and went to a little sort of well it’s just a little aerodrome called Sleap which was the OTU where we started to learn all our air [pause] I don’t know what you’d call it. Instruction I suppose. And we were flying Whitleys and the pilot said, ‘Well, I like them,’ because they’d got two nice, I believe, Merlin engines I think. I think, but and they had a rear gun. And we did where the pilot and I, I can’t remember how many circuits and landings we did but I know we kept on for about a week. Circuits and landings about ten times a day for a week and then we started doing sort of small cross countries for about probably an hour. Then we kept doing that and then we started doing bombing trips as well so the bomb aimer could get some time in and the wireless operator. We all did sort of different jobs just to get more, well so we knew what we were doing. And then we did that. We was there for about six or seven weeks. And they found out that we got so many crews they didn’t know where to put them. So I think I remember we went home for about two weeks again. Then we went back. We went back to the same OTU for a week. And then they decided to send us to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Halifax and the pilot said he was a bit annoyed about that because he didn’t want to fly on a Halifax. He wanted Lancs. And so we did four or five weeks in this Halifax. Mostly circuits and landings again for about a week. And then we started doing more bombing trips, and trips for the wireless operator and a lot of more cross countries but all our flying was over England. And we did, oh quite a few cross countries and then I can’t actually remember the time but I think it must have been sort of October perhaps something like that. Maybe November. But then we got another week’s leave because we got so many crews lined up we didn’t know what to do with them. So we had another week and then we went back to [pause] Oh God, I can’t remember. No. It wasn’t Coningsby. No. I can’t remember the name but we went back to another Conversion Unit which was a Lancaster Finishing School which made the pilot happy. So we got back to there. I think it was somewhere around about the beginning of November which we started doing cross countries, bombing trips for about four or five weeks. And then we had another weeks holiday and then we ended up back at, or back at Ludford Magna which we didn’t know was a bomber station in those days because it hadn’t been going, only I think since about the middle of July and we went there just before Christmas ’43. Then we did another few cross countries, bombing trips, all in training. And then they said to my pilot, ‘You’re going on a second dickie tonight.’ So, I don’t know if you know but Canadians had a Commissioner in London. So if you didn’t agree with some things you used to go and see the Commissioner and they would sort it out you hoped. Anyway, my pilot said, ‘I’m not going.’ And he wouldn’t go because, you don’t probably know but quite often if that pilot went on a trip with a operational crew it was always surprising the number of pilots went missing. And the crew were left at home with no pilot. So that crew either had to get another pilot or start training again. So anyway my pilot said, ‘I’m not going,’ which he didn’t go. So about two or three nights later they said, ‘Right. You don’t want to go on a cross country. You can go on a raid.’ So that’s the 27th of January we went to nine hours to Berlin. And we’d never been out of the country before and that was the first trip. They said, ‘You’ll be alright. You can have a rest tomorrow night.’ Of course we didn’t. We just were just sort of thinking about getting up when we got called in. ‘You’re going to Berlin again tonight.’ So, which we did. And then we had a weeks’ leave from there. And then we came back. Then I think, I think we did another Berlin. I think we did about three in a row and then we started doing Schweinfurt, all the —
[recording paused]
CJ: So you’ve got your list there.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Of the raids you went on.
PS: Yeah. Yes. Well, I have a list here of all the raids we did. And we did the first three were Berlin. And then Leipzig, Stuttgart, Schweinfurt, Augsburg, two more Stuttgarts and then two to Frankfurt. And then we did a fourth Berlin. That was middle of March. And then Essen. And then we went to that horrible Nuremberg where we had the worst night of the war as far as Bomber Command went because we lost ninety six aeroplanes of just Bomber Command. And we lost seven aeroplanes from Ludford Magna which was, the old sergeant’s mess was a bit quiet on the next morning, 30th of March. I’ll never forget that one. And then after that we started doing a few to France. Another one called [unclear] Aachen, and then we went to Cologne. Dusseldorf. Karlsruhe. Another one to Schweinfurt and [unclear] Hasselt, Cologne, Duisburg, Dortmund and two to Aachen which was back in Germany. Then we did two in France. A place called Trappes. And then on the thirtieth of, our thirtieth trip we went to do the big guns at Calais which was quite a nice trip. Only just over three hours. We were home, back to bed in four hours. Lovely. And then the next night we thought well we’ve finished our thirty. That’s us finished. But they, after that which was the 5th of June they said, ‘You haven’t finished yet because you’ve got one more. Everybody.’ And that was a special duty operation which we thought well what special duty? So this night, the only night we didn’t carry any bombs but all the aircraft were filled with Window which was a type of paper which was used to interrupt or stop the German radio from working properly. But so we spent all night going from Dover to Paris dropping this Window all night which, well it wasn’t quite all night, it was only six and a half hours but, but all two squadrons were just going backwards and forwards all night dropping this Window. Then when we decided to go home we couldn’t think, we got the other side of London and we saw sort of hundreds of aeroplanes all going the other way. Going towards France. So we didn’t quite figure it out until we got back and landed and then they told us that the, all the troops and everything had gone across the Channel and were invading France. We didn’t see anything ‘til we got home which was, well we thought it was quite good. But in that time I was at Ludford Magna we lost seven hundred and thirty nine aircraft from the time we were landed. And we lost five thousand two hundred airmen in our time.
CJ: Yeah. And did you talk about that much on the base or was it something you just —
PS: Oh, you didn’t talk about it at all. No. You just [pause] well we were lucky in one way because we had six NCOs. Only one officer. Only the pilot was the officer. And we were lucky in another way that we had a small hut. Just us six. So it was just us. Well, and as I say the pilot used to spend most of his time with us and just go home to bed. You know, eat or drink sort of thing. But other than that we sort of lived in that hut on our own you know. Yeah.
CJ: So, how did you pass your time on the base when you weren’t on ops?
PS: Well, I used to play a lot of badminton. I know I couldn’t play all day but and they took, we took over one of the hangars, or we had two badminton courts painted on the floor sort of thing, you know. And there was four, five, six of us who quite often played badminton. And I I got my bicycle there as well and quite often, well quite often but maybe once or twice a week I used to cycle out for the day, you know or to [pause] I can’t remember the name of the village now but we went to, you know riding around just for something to do. There was two or three of us used to cycle around because it was alright cycling in those days because you didn’t see only about four, four cars a day because they just wasn’t about which was quite nice. And there was plenty of places to cycle and quite little tea shops. All, even in war time there was little tea shops around. So all in all with badminton and cycling we didn’t do too bad. And the navigator and I always, if possible we went to church on Sunday morning. And we were the only two in our crew. But we thought that was quite nice. We thoroughly, we really enjoyed it, but on a Sunday morning and there used to be always quite a few local people there. A very good church service.
[pause]
CJ: So when you were going on a raid, on ops how were you told and how did you prepare for it?
PS: What happened? What happened? Even though, if we’d been on a raid the night before we didn’t used to get up until lunchtime. So we’d always go to lunch but normally if you got up for breakfast there’d be a notice on the board, “Meeting at 10 o’clock,” which everybody had to go to. Every flyer had to go to. And you would see around about there’d be policemen around about making sure that odd people can’t get in anywhere. And then you’d all go to the crew room and the CO and that would walk in and mention ops tonight. And then he’d say, ‘Make sure you have your meals and everything,’ And there’d be another meeting at probably three hours before you went on a trip. So you went to the meeting and the navigation people and the bloke in charge of the weather.
CJ: Meteorologist.
PS: Yeah. And he would tell you what the weather was going to be like. Possible to where you were going. And there would be a big notice across the top of the board where you were going which used to make you wake up a bit. And they’d tell you all the different places roughly where you’d go over or around and then they’d tell you what bomb load you’d got and what petrol load you’d got, because if you were only going sort of the middle of France or the entrance to Germany you never took a full bomb load which was twenty one thousand two hundred and fifty four petrol. Which quite often you didn’t take a full bomb load. And then you would, about two hours before you went you could go and have supper which was always egg and chips for supper. Every time. Same old thing. Egg and chips. And then quite, that’s it. You’d get a lift on a lorry to take you to the crew room. Then, being the gunners, the two gunners we had to wear more cold weather suits than anybody else because the front five of the crew were, being up in the front of the aircraft they got hot air from two of the engines which we didn’t have in the two turrets. But just before I went there they’d arranged to have electrically heated flying suits, or a suit you wore under your outer suit which had wire to your arms and legs and you had slippers on which were electrically heated and gloves and your body waist coat. But you never had nothing around your legs. Only the wire that went to your feet. By the time you’d got all your gear on, four pairs of socks, I’d got a nice pair of silk stockings and ordinary shoes and a great big pair of flying socks as well. By the time you’d got them on you had a job to walk. And the suit was a great big suit that you wore over the top of everything. And I always used to wear a silk scarf because I always sort of felt I, my head was always cold. But I never felt cold in my hands and feet which was a good thing. But then one night we, we’d come halfway back and you found the oxygen wasn’t working. So we managed to get the oxygen bottles and stick them on but my ears really froze so bad that the lobes were frozen more or less for about a week before they came back into real circulation which I, which I didn’t fancy very much. But then another night we came all the way back from Berlin with no rear turret because the outer port engine used to work the rear turret which of course the engine didn’t worked. The only time we had ever had anything go wrong was that one engine when I couldn’t use the turret. Other than that we had thirty one trips with nothing really went wrong. Absolutely superb aeroplane. And I always think we had a really good pilot which I’ll show you what he did in a minute. But, and other than that I don’t think we never got attacked once. Saw quite a few fighters but we were told unless they actually attacked don’t let them know where you are. You want to come back. So I never fired my guns once at all. Only just to test them sort of thing. Never fired them at anything. But quite often over the target, because when you looked over the target it was like a beautiful big bonfire which it was, and you could see lots of fighters criss-crossing the raid and quite a few Lancaster’s as well but what I was more frightened about than anything was running into another aeroplane. A Lancaster. I wasn’t worried about anything else because unless you sort of have been there and seen the number of aircraft that you’re all flying the same way. I mean sometimes we were having eight hundred more aeroplanes all going the same way and all being over the target within sort of thirty, forty, fifty minutes. Which is a lot of aeroplanes going the one way and, but luckily enough I mean quite often you’d see a great big bang where you know two aeroplanes have collided. I mean you saw more of that than you see of anything going wrong really. That was more frightening than anything else because I just didn’t fancy, well I didn’t fancy falling out the aircraft where you don’t know where you’re going. So there again we were so lucky. Yeah.
CJ: So what would your responsibilities have been as the rear gunner then if you were attacked?
PS: Well, if you were attacked well it all depends. They used to sort of, they didn’t sort of come down they always came up under your back side. And it was a thing to keep your eyes open sort of level down because if a fighter was coming up he was probably coming up from the darkness wasn’t he? And you’ve got to try and see him before he sees you. But, and if he did it’s your, to attack and tell the pilot what to do. I mean if they sort of come around to the left you’d want to go to the left. You’d tell the pilot, ‘Corkscrew left,’ you know, sort of thing as quick as possible. Or right or whatever and just well just hope for the best every time. But as I say we were just so lucky that it didn’t happen. But as I say we, we were never attacked once and everything all those trips over to Germany but just well you think there’s thirty there and we was never attacked once. You can’t be much more lucky than that can you? I don’t think you can anyway.
CJ: So, what happened to you and your crew when you’d done your thirty first op?
PS: Well, we had two or three days together and then we all had, I can’t remember, I think we had about a fortnight’s holiday. We went, I can’t remember where we went back to but I went back to —
[pause – pages turning]
CJ: So you went back to where?
PS: Yeah. So when I finished there I went back to 27 OTU Lichfield which was another trainee OTU for trainee aircrew which was Wellingtons. And I was there for well, where are we? [pause] I was there, I was there for three months and then they eight or nine aircrew they came in one morning and said, ‘You’re all going to learn to drive. You’re going to Blackpool.’ So we said, ‘Oh lovely. That’s alright.’ But one or two of the blokes could drive anyway but then we all went anyway. But in the end ended up ten of us went to Blackpool to learn to drive. Because I didn’t know how to do it but two or three had already driven. But in there we used to go down the, where all the lorries and things were about 8 o’clock in the morning. And then we’d have perhaps two hours being told all what makes a lorry and car go, and all how to repair it. How to take a wheel off. Everything. Everything about a car. But we had like two hours every day and then we’d go and have two hours driving around the aerodrome. Well, it wasn’t an aerodrome. It was a driving school. We’d have two hours driving round and then after lunch we’d have another two hours learning how to put the lorry together. Then in the afternoon we’d have another two hours driving through Blackpool. There weren’t many cars about in those days but we did this for six weeks. Oh, God it was shocking but in the end we all passed because they just used to say, ‘Drive.’ You were just told what to do and we did it and they’d say, ‘You pass.’ We didn’t have like it is now. But we all did that and then they said, ‘Righto.’ We’d got another week’s leave and when you came back they said oh I’m going to RAF Gravely which is in Norfolk, not too far from Cambridge which was a PFF Lancaster squadron and a Mosquito squadron and we were, you know just joined all the, all the other LAC drivers and that. But most of us were ex-aircrew and when we used to drive around because we used to pick up the aircrew which were going on ops. We used to drive a mini bus and take them out to the ops. A lot of these aircrew said, ‘How do you get a job like this?’ Which was quite laughable really because we’d already, us, had already done our tour, but they didn’t know that. But we used to explain to them what we’d already done and you know of course they didn’t like it very much but as I said, ‘Well, you finish your ops you can get a job like this.’ But, and we used to go to the other side of Cambridge and get a load of bombs in a lorry. We used to think it was hilarious in those days. Get a load of bombs and drive them back from Cambridge to Graveley. Oh, my goodness. So I had about, about three months there and then they said, ‘Oh, you’re going back to OTU.’ I said, ‘What on earth for?’ ‘Well,’ they said, ‘You’ve got to get up to date with what you know.’ So I went back to an OTU. I think that was back to Lichfield. And I was there for two or three weeks and then I got posted to another squadron, another OTU and much to my amazement I ended up with three Australian aircrew who hadn’t been on any ops. So of course when I found out I’d got myself another crew with three Australians and the other gunner was a boy I’d known in the Air Cadets in Tonbridge before joining aircrew. And anyway we started our training on Wellingtons and we did about three or four weeks training and they dropped the first, well we, we were told we were going to Japan before, when we started. And then they dropped the first atom bomb but that was only three or four days before they dropped the second one wasn’t it? If you can remember. So anyway they dropped the second one and within two or three days all the war in Japan was finished wasn’t it? And within a fortnight the three Aussies were on their way home because we, they said we don’t want them anymore. So they were all back home after about three or four weeks after that. And then [pause] I can’t remember. Oh yeah. Then they decided because this is sort of nearly the end of ’45 wasn’t it? And they said, ‘Oh, we’re sending you to Cranwell.’ I said, ‘Why the Dickens are we going to Cranwell?’ They said, ‘You can learn to be a teleprinter operator.’ So I said, ‘Right.’ They said, ‘You can get a ground job now. You won’t have to fly anymore.’ So anyway I did this. There was about ten of us. All ex-aircrew learning to use a typewriter. So we had this. I think it’s about seven or eight weeks I think training and to be this teleprinter. And then in the end there was a Scotsman which was, he was about six foot six tall, massive, and another Londoner, flight engineer and we were posted to 19 Group Coastal Command in Plymouth. So goodness gracious me. We went to this place and there was three airmen and of course nearly all the other operators were all WAAFs. About twenty of them, you know and it was Coastal Command. A place called well Mount Wise, or something. Mountbatten, which was in Plymouth Harbour. It’s Coastal Command. Anyway being us, us three men they decided they wouldn’t let us work at night so in the end we ended up only doing about three or four shifts a week because they didn’t want us at night. They wouldn’t have three airmen with the WAAFs at night. I mean, I know there was only probably about four or five WAAFs at night but a dozen or so in the day because there was a whole row of teleprinters. So I was there for just over a year and I think it was about one of the best, well Devonshire weather I’ve ever known. It was beautiful. And what we used to do if we wasn’t on that day we’d go down the road, we’d get on the first bus that came along, pay a shilling and when we got to that shilling we’d get off and walk home. That’s what we did every day. Yeah. It was just something to do. But the weather was just absolutely fantastic. And then I was there for Christmas ’46 and I got, oh God [pause] not laryngitis. What’s the other thing you get in your throat? Oh God. There was something wrong with my throat and the doctor said I’ll give you, no, not penicillin. Yeah penicillin. And of course that really upset me so I had to come off of that. But something else he give me and I’ve never had anything wrong with me throat since that day. You would not believe it. Never had this what it was. Not, laryngitis I think it was. Yeah. I was going to have it done and it didn’t and then he told me, he said, ‘Whatever you do never take — ’ no, it wasn’t paracetamol, it’s Penicillin. He said, ‘Whatever you do never taken penicillin anymore.’ So I never have. In all, I’ve had different things. And so I’ve never taken penicillin anymore. So it doesn’t cure everybody. But whatever the other thing that it was. And then in January we had this horrible fog and that’s when I went to London and got demobbed. Then I had another three weeks paid. Three months paid holiday which was very nice. That’s my life, near enough.
CJ: So what did you do after demob?
PS: Well, I had another mate. He’d, he’d been in the RAF but he didn’t fly. And about June or July we decided, we used to, he got a motorbike and started, got a motorbike and we used to drive around on a motorbike for two or three months. Nothing else much to do. But then we decided to go fruit picking. So of course the middle of Kent there was plenty of apples, pears, plums and I think, I think we did plums and pears I think first and then we went to apple. But we made a fortune because you used to get paid at so much a bushel. Well you could pick a bushel of big apples in ten minutes and then you got so much for it you know. Cor we made some money. We used to make ten bob a day and then go home. Which was a lot of money in 1947. Cor it was wonderful. Course then we had this motorbike and we would sort of do a half a days work and then go to the seaside. We had a wonderful time. And then come to, coming up to Christmas my father had been a male nurse in a mental [unclear] and he said, ‘Why don’t you give it a go?’ So I don’t know if you know, ever heard of Chartham. If you know Canterbury. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s where he’d been. So I went there and got talking to the boss and he found my father had been there before the First War because my father went in the Army as a, well a rifleman. He was a first aid bloke as well. You know, he did it all sort of thing and he got away with it alright but then he got rheumatic fever. That’s the only thing. Which didn’t do him any good, and I say I had three years a mental nurse. That’s where I met my wife. So from there on it was us. But I didn’t mind the work but I just couldn’t be, stand being indoors in the end because quite often you’d be indoors for a whole week. Indoors, you know. Not, not in and out doors but indoors looking after patients, you see. After three years I decided I couldn’t stand anymore so I, I, then we got married and then another friend of mine he rang up. He said, ‘We want a cowman.’ And I thought oh my God. I didn’t know anything about milking cows. So we went to this farm because it had a nice, a nice little bungalow and everything and learned all about milking cows. But then they decided to set up after a while to sell the milk that we produced. Then in the end we used quite often I’d milk the cows, have my breakfast and go and deliver the milk. So we had, and in the end we had three milk rounds and I used to do, sort of this one this week, that one then. Milk it, deliver it and everything else. So we did that for ten years. Well, I know people say, you know farm work and all that sort of thing but it was quite interesting. You know, it was interesting. You know. Say milking. Looking after, looking after the cows, doing all the milking and bottling up and everything and delivering it and keeping everything running. And we made it work too because it was, well it was a big farm because we had our own cows. All outdoors as well and, well they had to be indoors in the winter. But we had ten years there. And then after that another, another friend rung up and he said, ‘We want a baker’s roundsman in Chatham.’ Well, and of course, God what am I letting my insides for?’ But he said, ‘Come and have a look.’ So I did and the pay was about four times I was getting on the farm. I was on this estate for twenty years delivering bread. This estate and another estate. It was alternate days, you know. Then the baker showed up in the end. Then I went to work for BP over the Isle of Grain. I did four or five years there. And then that packed up. That sold up. God, what did I do after that? I can’t remember. I can’t. You know what —
CJ: Coming back to the RAF.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Did you manage to keep in touch with some of the crew that your flew with? I think —
PS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he and I are the only two left now. The rest are all dead.
CJ: So some of these are Canadian you said are in the crew.
PS: Yeah. That one. That one. That one. Then my navigator he said, ‘We’re coming over to England in the summer.’ I forget, somewhere in the summer. Anyway, we lived, we lived here and he came over. He and his wife came over for four weeks and of course I’d, I had a car so we went about. I looked after him for a week and then they went up to the Midlands somewheres. Somewheres near where that motorbike came from. They went up there three weeks. Then they came back. Then in, I forget when it was but then in 1980 he said, ‘Why don’t you come over? We’ve got a big reunion in Toronto.’ So, oh yeah I managed to get three weeks off from the bakery so he said, so, there was only Margaret and I, so we went to Saskatchewan and they picked us up at Toronto and we went to [pause] oh God. Anyway, we went to this Saskatchewan and we went to this mess. There was five thousand people in a room. Men and women. About three thousand men and women. And it was wonderful. It really was. A big meal. Plenty of people to talk to and you would not believe but one of the people there was the chief of the German night fighters. He was there for a, yeah he was. Cor, he was quite a well-known name but he was a chap, the bloke in charge of the German night fighters. He was there on holiday. And I say that was really good. And then about forty two we went to Canada again for a month’s holiday. And then ’84 we had another big reunion. About, about another, you know five odd thousand. My navigator, he’d got a little, nice big buggy we could all sort of sleep in it if we wanted to, but we didn’t. He took us right across, right across Canada which was absolutely fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyed it. And then we went and stayed with them again. Then my wife’s sister decided to go to America. To her daughter. So in the end we went four weeks to Salt Lake City. And cor it’s a place that is. Believe me. And so we had a, going around there, and we had another in the end he got a sleep van. What do you call it?
CJ: A camper.
PS: Camper. Oh God, my bloody brain. And so we went half way across salt err Grand Canyon. Well, it’s the big Grand Canyon. All up in the mountains, everywhere. Played snowballs in June and all that sort of thing. We had a lovely time again. And soon after they all went and died so we didn’t go anywhere.
CJ: So while you’ve been talking, just for the listener we’ve been looking at a wonderful photograph of you and your crew.
PS: Oh yeah.
CJ: Around a motorbike and sidecar. So you used this when you were on the base did you?
PS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course he, well he got in touch with his friends in, I think it was Birmingham I think, and because he knew they’d be, apparently he’d known them before the war or something. And anyway —
CJ: So on the photograph this is the gentleman sitting actually on the bike.
PS: That’s the navigator.
CJ: Yeah.
PS: The pilot in there as well. We used to get, quite often got four on it. Then we went out to dinner somewhere, you know.
CJ: Yeah. And how did you manage to find the petrol to keep it going when it was so scarce?
PS: Well, I don’t know. We just used to park it behind as I say that’s not our hut, but we had a little hut. We just used to park it behind the hut and every time we went and got it it had petrol in it so it must have made it in the night. Well, it worked alright. And as I say we quite often got four on it no trouble.
CJ: So, so for the listener when they see this photograph online you’re the gentleman in the middle row. Sorry the back row in the middle.
PS: The middle. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s as I say this is the flight engineer, and he was the radio operator. That was the mid-upper and I was the tail gunner and there’s the bomb aimer.
CJ: So coming back to Bomber Command after the war. Do you have any opinions on how Bomber Command were treated after the war?
[pause]
PS: No. Because, because we, well we had a big Bomber Command Society thing. Aircrew Association. And well, right up right up to about a few years ago we were going. But we had over a hundred in Maidstone but they’re nearly all dead now. I’ve got a book in there it’s about eighty odd signatures. Well, not signatures. I used to take our Standard. And there’s eighty odd signatures there from the hundred odd we had. I mean when we used to have dinners and dances we had a hall full. I mean up ‘til last year we probably got four, five, six of us go to a local pub in Maidstone. Yeah. Well, we haven’t been this. Didn’t go. The last six months we haven’t been. But we’ve still got four or five of us, you see. Yeah.
CJ: And have you been able to visit any, view any Lancasters in museums?
PS: Well, as I say I’ve been to [pause] oh golly.
CJ: Duxford is it?
PS: Well, I say Duxford. I’ve been there. And the one in London. What’s the one in London?
CJ: Hendon.
PS: Hendon. I’ve been there. Yeah. Oh, I’ll tell you another one I like is East Kirkby.
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: Pardon?
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: That’s it. Yeah. Well, quite often when we used to have the reunion in Lincoln we used to have the dinner in Lincoln and then we’d go to Ludford for a service and that. But when we went there we used to go to stay with my wife’s sister at Newark and, you know because we could drive home from Lincoln to Newark no trouble. But then we used to go to, on the Monday, always on the Monday we’d go to East Kirkby and spend the day there. Then if I, two or three times I met my wireless operator there. And then this other bloke Rod Moore I think they might have let you know about this thing, he’s there. And we used to spent the day there and I got to know the two brothers. But one died didn’t he?
CJ: The Panton brothers.
PS: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Well, the two. I’ve got a book there signed by them somewheres. By the two brothers and the, and the sister. And I got there one day and he said, ‘Come on,’ so we went over, got in the aircraft, got in the aircraft for about two hours. Just sitting around, you know looking. I got down the rear turret. And then when I had my eighty fifth birthday a lot of my friends, because we had a lot of these, a lot belonged to our aircrew by then. Still. They all put two or three or four quid in a pot and we got enough money to go up to East Kirkby, sit in the turret and go around the airfield. Yeah. Because it’s, I think it was, I think it’s about a hundred and twenty pounds, a hundred and thirty pounds in those days just to ride around the airport. As you probably know. Get four engines going you soon get rid of a couple of gallons of petrol. But we used to go around. I’ve got a photograph somewhere of my daughter because she ran around. She ran all the way around the bloody airfield behind taking photographs of me sitting in the rear turret. Yeah. Cor, she ran some miles that day. But as I say I sat in the back. We got there on this, I think Monday morning and the man who had already signed to sit in the turret didn’t turn up. So I already told them the day before if anything goes wrong I want to get in the turret which I did. But it, it was a .5 turret. I don’t know if you know the difference. You probably do. But, but it wasn’t as good. I had the first .5 turret at Ludford, at 101. The, the boss man he knew two brothers from the local village who were mechanics and they made a .5 turret. It was about two or three inches wider than the old .5 and what was good about it you could just about get two people in it and you could sit on the seat and you’d got no glass in the front. The whole front was clear. You didn’t have to bale out the back. You could bale out head first straight out the, and you didn’t have to have one of these sit ons, well it was but you didn’t have one of the old clip on parachutes. You could have one of these sit on ones and you just sit here like that and if the worst comes to the worst head first straight out the back and you was away. Really super. But the .5 turret at East Kirkby is not the same gun as I had in Ludford because the one I had in Ludford was up here like this. But the one they had in East Kirkby was the guns were in front of you. In the way. And you had a job to get in it because the was the seat was different.
CJ: So when you’re saying a .5 turret for the listener that doesn’t know the difference the original guns were .303.
PS: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. There would be four guns in a normal Lancaster are 303 but when we got the .5s they were bigger guns, bigger ammunition which was the American type like they had in all their Flying Fortresses. They had all .5s. Yeah. It’s quite good actually. They made more noise too.
CJ: How did it feel to be sitting in the turret again?
PS: Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. Good. When it was going around the airfield it didn’t half go around every time. I don’t know how my daughter kept up because she ran all the way around. Yeah. Yeah. She got some good photographs. But I was going to [pause] there’s my pilot.
CJ: Well, I think we’ve covered everything today, Peter. Thanks ever so much for talking to us today.
PS: Oh, it’s my pleasure.
CJ: For the —
PS: It’s nice to see you. It’s nice to talk.
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Interview with Arthur Peter Smith
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-01-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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ASmithAP180103, PSmithAP1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:12:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Smith was born in Kent and attended school until he was 14. He started working for a woodwork shop and when the war began, they started building army huts. In 1941 he joined the Air Cadets. He recalls how one Sunday he and a friend saw an aerial dogfight which they watched for two hours. They heard and saw spent ammunition landing on the ground close to them.
In 1942 he attended his RAF medical and was given deferred service. He was called up in March 1943 and attended various training courses to become a rear air gunner. Posted to RAF Lichfield he formed up with his mainly Canadian crew before moving on to an Operational Training Unit flying Whitley’s. At a Heavy Conversion Unit his crew moved to Halifax’s and finally Lancasters. In November 1943 they were posted to RAF Ludford Magna with 101 Squadron. Their first operation took place on 27th January 1944 to Berlin. Peter lists the German towns he was sent to on operations, including Nuremberg in March when the squadron lost seven aircraft. His thirtieth operation was against large guns at Calais. Normally the end of a tour, they were asked to carry out a special duties' operation on the night of 5th June 1944. They flew back and forth between Dover and Paris dropping Window, foil strips, out of the aircraft. It was not until they returned to the station that they were told it was part of the invasion of Europe.
He describes what he did in his spare time and the preparation for operations. Over the thirty-one operations he flew, Peter says that he never had to fire his guns even though he did see some night fighters. Only on one occasion did their aircraft have trouble, when one engine stopped working and there was no power to his rear turret. He describes the various roles he had after completing his tour until he was demobbed in January 1947.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943-11
1944-01-27
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
101 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lichfield
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sleap
training
Whitley
Window
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1130/11656/PSmithEJ1801.1.jpg
e82058cb3970e64431f2bb3fe62c69ad
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1130/11656/ASmithEJ180705.2.mp3
ded159f5a45f8b3f92432f35dd8df0eb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith, Edward John
E J Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ted Smith (1925 - 2022, 1892341 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 90 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, EJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m Interviewing Edward John Smith today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Ted’s home in Kent and it is Thursday the 5th of July 2018. So, thank you Ted for agreeing to talk to be today. Also present at the interview is Stan Jordan, a friend of Ted’s. So Ted perhaps we could start by you telling us where and when you were born please and something about your childhood and your family.
ES: I was born on the 27th of February 1925, and we were living in Sheerness on the Isle of Sheppey. [pause] This was just before the start of the war that I joined. That’s a load of balls. Sorry.
[recording paused]
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m Interviewing Edward John Smith today for the International Bomber Command Centres Digital Archive. We’re at Ted’s home in Kent and it is Thursday the 5th of July 2018. So, thank you Ted for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Ted’s friend Stan Jordan. So, Ted, perhaps we could start by you telling us about where and when you were born please and, and your family situation.
ES: I was born on the 27th of February 1925 and I lived in Sheerness on the Isle of Sheppey and left school at fourteen in 1939. I had a job as a butcher boy which I enjoyed very much because I learned quite a lot about it. In fact, reading other tail gunner’s episodes the first few weeks run in parallel [pause] As a butcher boy when I, which I enjoyed very much because I learned quite a lot about it and I worked in the abattoir as well. This was a fascinating job to me. Whilst I was doing this in the evenings I was fire watching. We’d go up to the second floor in Burton’s building, Burtons everywhere this is near the clock tower in the centre of the town and patrol across the rooves. We used to get paid for this by the council and I can’t remember what. How much it was. It wasn’t very much I know that. Although we had plenty of aircraft flying over the town it was on the estuary of the Medway and the Thames and naturally they were all making for, for London. [pause] We had a little bit of excitement on the island when some aircraft had been shot down at Eastchurch which then was a fighter drome. If I remember correctly that got knocked out very quickly. A friend and myself cycled from Sheerness down to [unclear] Farm and we saw this 109 in one of the fields. Can you stop this?
[recording paused]
ES: I’d heard so much about what was going on so I joined the ATC in 1941 with the thought of going in to the Air Force. In the ATC we had a chance to go on a flight which was from Detling Airport, aerodrome. I asked my mother if I could go but she wasn’t that keen that I went in to the Air Force. On one occasion my brother who was eighteen months younger than myself was at the cinema and flashed up on the screen was an important notice. They wanted fifty thousand pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, air gunners. He came running home and told me this and I decided that as soon as I was eighteen I was going to volunteer for the Air Force. The morning I was eighteen I said to my mother, ‘I’m going to enlist.’ I went to the Recruiting Office. I must have been mad at the time. I don’t know [laughs] and said, this is how naïve one can be, ‘I want to fly in Lancasters as a rear gunner at night.’ So the recruiting officers said, got this written down and said, ‘Ok.’ They put me on deferred service for about six months. Of course crews were coming in so quickly. Passing through. And when it did come or rather when I told my mother what I’d volunteered for she wasn’t very happy at all.
CJ: Stop it?
[recording paused]
ES: Yes. The reason I volunteered for being a rear gunner was the fact that you had about a years’ training whereas if you were volunteered for a pilot you’d be training for two and a half years and the idea really was to get in to the war and do your bit. At that time things had been getting better for us and many aircrew were coming on. When, when I did get, get my call up papers I was posted to St Johns Wood. They were luxury flats just near the Lord’s Cricket Ground and we did our square bashing there. Kitted out. Kitted out and had our square bashing. We were there for about three weeks and after that we were posted to the training. Elementary Air Gunner’s School. Elementary flying training. Then on to Elementary Air Gunner’s School. Then Air Gunner’s School for about two months. Having passed out at Pembrey as a fully qualified air gunner I was then able to put up my coveted brevet. At Pembrey I was unfortunately caught up in a flu epidemic and was in hospital for about three weeks. The intention was that once I’d passed it became known that the course that I was on was going to Rhodesia. Now, my father was in the Army and he was, he was already out in Rhodesia and the idea was that I’d probably be able to meet him. However, because of losing three weeks of schooling I had a test but I wasn’t quite good enough to get this posting. Can you stop it a moment?
[recording paused]
ES: Having, having at last got my call up papers I was ordered to go to the ACRC which was the Aircrew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood in August ‘43. Following the square bashing session there we were posted to Initial Training Wing at Bridlington and we were there for about a month. And from there we went to Elementary Air Gunner’s School at Bridgnorth. What I remember about Bridgnorth is there is a high and a low town there and to get from one to the other you had to climb about a hundred and forty steps. Having completed the course at Bridgnorth we were then posted to Number 1 Air Gunner’s School at Pembrey in South Wales. I was there for about two months, passing out with a mark of 75.5 percent. We were flying in Ansons there and doing air to air firing but the bullets I think were 1918 bullets and I feel sure that the cordite degrades over a period because we could see our bullets cartwheeling. So you can imagine what our test results were firing. Mine were absolutely abysmal. Couldn’t understand it. Well, I did understand it to see these bullets cartwheeling. Anyway, I passed out with a reasonable mark and the CO at the time who was signing the official form that I’d passed said, “Well and truly interested in his work. He should make a good air gunner.” I said to my colleague at the time, ‘I bet he says that to everyone.’ [laughs] Anyway, from elementary, from air gunner’s school, having got my wings at last I was on a month’s leave and was then posted to Operational Training Unit at Wing in Buckinghamshire which was mooted at one time in later years as the third airport for London. Do you remember that? I’m trying to think what [pause] At Wing we were flying in Wellingtons and when we did ditching drill or any crash landing drill the pilot would give the word to be ready to get out. I would have to get out of my turret, climb around the rudder and run up the top of the aircraft to where the dinghy would be. We took them out automatically. In fact, we became quite good at it. Just as well. Seems to me I’m going through my Air Force time rather quickly. What I can say is that I enjoyed every minute of it. Can you turn it off a minute?
[recording paused]
ES: Once I left Pembrey and had got all my flying gear with me I was posted to 26 OTU. Operational Training Unit. Here we picked up our crew. The idea was that some three or four hundred mixed bodies, pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators, air gunners would be put in to a big hangar and told to sort yourselves out. Well, Ken and I were sitting there talking away and someone tapped us on the shoulders and we turned around and he said, ‘Would you two like to be my gunners?’ So, we both said, ‘Well, would you like to look at our logbooks?’ He said, ‘Yeah. That’s fair enough.’ I said, ‘What about our percentages of scores?’ He said, ‘Well, don’t worry about it. What I’ve heard is enough for me,’ he said, ‘You’ll be my gunners.’ He then found the navigator, Nobby Clark. And the wireless operator who was an Aussie which naturally bore the name, Abbo. He was a very quiet individual but he was great with his job. All we were looking for then was the bomb aimer. The first bomber we, bomb aimer we found and was trained with the pilot wasn’t very pleased with his results so he sort of gave him the push as it were and we ended up with Bob Griggs who came from Whitstable. He was a qualified electrician actually but he was a failed pilot as well. And we then did our flying training of course at 26 OTU. After that we were posted to a Conversion Unit. That was from twins on to four engines, and the Heavy Conversion Unit was at a place called Shepherd’s Grove, about eight or ten miles south of Bury St Edmunds. We were introduced to our night flying with an unfortunate accident. We were the second to go off and the chap in front of the other one was on a night trip. A night cross country. What the hell happened we don’t know because he finished up hitting the control tower and the two gunners and the radio operator were able to get out in time. Now, I can’t remember whether flying was cancelled that night or whether we went on to do our night circuits and landings.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Ted, you said you were converting from two engine aircraft to four. So what were the aircraft types you were flying and what were the crewing arrangements please?
ES: Well, when we left OTU we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was the four engine Stirlings. And it was there we picked up, is that switched on? It was there that we picked up our flight engineer, Wally Hodges. Came from Sittingbourne. In fact four of us came from Kent. The navigator was a greengrocer. He was thirty four. Came from Dover. I came from Sheerness. I was about nineteen and a half then. Wally Hodges came from, oh I said that. He came from Sittingbourne. And who was the other one? Come on Smith, think. Think. Think. Think. Wally. Bob, the bomb aimer. Nobby and myself. That’s the four of us from Kent. The training on the Stirling was pretty good and we were at a place called Shepherd’s Grove which was some five or six miles south of Bury St Edmunds. It was at Bury St Edmunds that we purchased a motor bike actually. There was a section within the RAF called the Committee of Adjustments and this Unit looks after the wherewithal of the crews that didn’t make it. Anything that they had of value was put up for sale and Ken Burt, the mid-upper was a very keen motorcyclist. What came up was a Triumph 500 with the three gallon petrol tank and the silencer missing so you can imagine the noise it made. Anyway, we got it for five pounds. We couldn’t believe it. That same day we motored into Bury St Edmunds to Halfords. Didn’t realise they’d been going that long. Anyway, the silencer, we broomed right into Bury St Edmunds. A hell of a noise. Bought this silencer for seven and six pence. Fitted it. Quiet as a mouse. Really lovely. The only problem we had was that we weren’t issued with the petrol coupons. When we did run out which was quite often we’d wait by the wayside. The bike being held at an angle of about forty five, fifty degrees getting every drain of petrol out. Along came a Yank lorry, ‘What’s the matter, bud?’ ‘Run out [laughs] run out of petrol again.’ He said, ‘Oh, no worries.’ Round the back of the lorry. Out came, comes the jerry can. Filled up the tank which lasted quite a while. They were so good the Yanks. I’ve great admiration for them, for them actually. Right. At the Conversion Unit you did the usual initial dual circuits and landings, overshoots, checked your, and then we had what was called evasive action which meant corkscrewing. The corkscrew was if the fighter was coming in from the port side you would turn into the fighter and at the same time you would just have been shouting, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port.’ And the pilot would immediately put the Stirling into a dive. Dive down a thousand feet, rolled, what we called at the bottom, come up a thousand feet, down another thousand feet, up a thousand feet. Each time we did this it meant that the fighter had to adjust his sight on us. He had to keep his nose in front of us whatever we were doing for him to be able to hit us. It was the only time that I really felt sick in the Stirling. By the time we’d finished I’d had enough. I don’t know what causes it because it was an aircraft that the wingspan was nearly, or rather the length was nearly as big as the wingspan. But I was as sick as a dog. Got out of the turret, looked at it and I thought, oh Christ. So the ground crew came along any way to see you down. I said, ‘I’m sorry chaps but I’ve been sick in the turret. Do you mind cleaning it up for me?’ ‘It’ll cost you a half a crown, serg.’ Worth every penny of it. It was of course here on the Conversion Unit that we picked up our flight engineer Wally Hodges. I don’t, I can’t remember how long his course was but he was in control of all the petrol consumption, oil consumption, revs. Anything to do with the aircraft controls. Not controls. Instruments. He was good at his job. I don’t think I could have done that. But there’s more to say about Wally Hodges. That came about when we were transferred to, transferred from the Heavy Conversion Unit to the Lanc Finishing School where we then picked up the coveted Lancaster. We did six hours on Lancs at night, six hours daylights at what was called a Lanc Finishing School at Feltwell. We had some leave before we got posted to a squadron but when we were posted we were posted to 90 Squadron. We were in 3 Group in Suffolk. And at the time we were told it was a chop squadron. Now, the meaning of the chop was that you’d had it. No sooner than you’d joined the squadron then you were most likely to be shot down. Touch wood, it didn’t happen. Can we stop a moment please?
[recording paused]
CJ: So could you tell us please Ted how long these courses were before you were posted? How many hours you flew?
ES: Well, at the Operational Training Unit we flew a total of eighty two hours which were, there were two flights there. A Flight and C Flight. And we had, on A Flight we had twenty nine hours day, three hours night. And on C Flight we had twenty three hours day, twenty seven hours night. A total of eighty two hours. The number of hours increasing with the night time flying consisted of night time flying cross country details which would take four hours some of them. Others three hours. Mostly night times. Five hours. On the OTU flying, night flying we were on a special exercise called a bullseye. Actually [pause] preparing you for a long trip. We had a near thing on that occasion. We felt an aircraft go over the top of us. We don’t know whether, we felt his slip stream but we don’t know whether he felt anything from us. We had a lot of high level bombing. Night time and day time. All preparing us for our progression to four engine aircraft. From the twins, that is the Wellington we went to the Conversion Unit where we were going to pick up a flight engineer who had been training separately on the [pause] What’s the bloody word? On the intricacies of the dashboard looking after the engines, keeping them running and in good order. We did plenty of dual circuits and landings, overshoots and then we went solo. Meaning the instructor no longer needed us [pause] We had one long cross country which was six hours. That was a cross country. Base, Goole [pause] east of London, Thornton, Barnstable, St Mary’s, St David’s, Fishguard, Bardsley, Aberystwyth, Luton, Elmdon and back to base. Getting us used to long trips at night and day. As a rear gunner I was always in the rear although on one occasion Ken did say, ‘How about swapping over for one day?’ So I did a session as a mid-upper gunner and Ken did his session in the rear but he still preferred to have the mid-upper gunner’s situation.
CJ: So, how many hours did you fly there on the HCU before you were posted?
ES: We flew about forty seven hours. Thirty five hours daylight. Twelve hours night time.
CJ: So then after that you were posted to 90 Squadron did you say?
ES: No. No. Before you get there you go to Lanc Finishing School which was at Feltwell in Norfolk and we did six hours daylight and six hours night flying. That was dual circuits and landing, overshoots, local flying, fighter affiliation, corkscrews, circuits and landings and a small trip of three hours. It was then we were posted from LFS, Lanc Finishing School to the squadron. When it was known we were going to 90 Squadron we were told that that was a chop squadron. Now, whether this was because before the Lancs they had the Stirlings and unfortunately for, unfortunately the old Stirling couldn’t get up above sixteen thousand feet. It struggled and it took a lot of hammering. They lost many Stirlings on those occasions. Fortunately we converted to Lancasters and posted to which we thought 90 Squadron was the squadron in the RAF. At Tuddenham in Suffolk. We were, in fact, a satellite to Mildenhall. Like to stop.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Ted you’ve now joined 90 Squadron which had a bad reputation for being a chop squadron. How long was it before you went on your first operation?
ES: It was about three weeks but the, as for it being known as a chop squadron it didn’t enter our heads that it was such a squadron. My first trip actually took place on the 6th of September flying as a spare, not a spare gunner, the replacement gunner because the original, the gunner of this crew of Flying Officer Hooper had been taken sick. Now the CO, the MO wouldn’t let anyone who was feeling not one hundred percent fly at all. It was no good you being, trying to be brave or anything like that that you insisted on going. He definitely ruled it out. People who were sick. You weren’t doing yourself any favours and you certainly were not doing any favours for the rest of the crew. So that was why I went as a rear gunner for another crew. The night we actually got to the squadron we were allocated to a Nissen hut. Two, two crews to a hut. The crew that were in there were a Canadian crew and they’d gone out that night but they didn’t come back. So, that was my, and our introduction to the squadron. As the spare gunner the target was Le Havre and I always kept a note of what bombs we were carrying. This information I got from the bomb aimer. The bomb bay of a Lanc is immense. We carried eleven by a thousand pounds, four by five hundred. About thirteen thousand pounds of bombs. In other words something like five tons. Anyway, we got back from that trip quite, quite safely. We went on [pause] I seem to have missed something. Can you stop?
[recording paused]
CJ: So, your first operation was to Le Havre and you got back safely. How did you and the crew feel having got one first operation?
ES: Well, it was quite pleasant really. It was a four hour trip in all but we didn’t meet any, any opposition except for some flak. But our general targets were helping the Army consolidate the beach head. And we had various targets of course and it was on one that we were bombing a synthetic oil plant at a place called Kamen which was north of the Ruhr. And there we flew as a squadron in vics of three. There were a dozen of us and we opened out as we were going towards to the target and we got hit by flak that particular time. I had a hole in the tailplane I could get my head in and the bomb bay was like a pepper pot with the flak. And in the starboard main, mainplane there was a head, hole there, a head and shoulders you could get through. I had a piece of shrapnel come through the turret from the right hand side, across at an angle of about sixty degrees out the other side. Later on in our trips I used to stand up and look over my bombsight err gun sight and could see our own bombs falling away. [pause] Night trips. This is a funny thing. Here was I in my innocent youth volunteering for night flying. What happened? I did six nights and the rest were daylights. Good God. Anyway, we did three or four ops helping the Army. Spoof raids, dropping dummy parachutes and bombing again, Sangatte and Calais block houses and strong points, here again helping the Army out. Well, we hoped we did anyway. Calais we were bombing regularly. The strong points and marshalling yards. Anything to stop them getting their troops supplied with reinforcements.
CJ: So this was Autumn 1944 after the invasion in June ’44.
ES: Yes.
CJ: You were supporting the troops that had invaded France to fight the Germans. Yes?
ES: That’s right. We had night fighter affiliation. Good job it was just affiliation. We were shot down three times by a Hurricane.
[recording paused]
CJ: So could you tell me please, Ted a bit about how you found out for each operation where you would —
[recording paused]
CJ: Could you tell us please Ted then how you found out when operations were on? Where you were going and what the target was, please?
ES: Well, there was what was called an operations board and you’d go down the list of crews looking for your crew. Then once we knew we were on an op we knew we were going to have a general briefing. But the pilot, the navigator and the engineer I would think had a separate briefing. And the wireless operator would go to a separate briefing. Different instructions on each operation you did. Call signs and that sort of thing. The gunners of course weren’t brought into the briefing until the final briefing, which was understandable. So you would — are they making too much noise?
[recording paused]
ES: Yes, and the gunners had their usual briefing making sure that all the ammunition that you needed was on board. And of course you relied on your ground crew who kept us up there and I feel should have had more recognition because they were out in all weathers at any time. The other thing about the ground crew you never seemed to get really attached to them. I mean, we didn’t know the names of our ground crew and I think the feeling has been that they’ve seen crews come and go and it must have been as hard for them as it was for us. Anyway, at the main briefing where all the crews were seated seven to a crew everyone there, the CO will come up and outline the target. What was happening. And the navigation officer and the intelligence officer would tell us where there is supposed to be loads of flak but probably fighters. All taken down and written, you know. And then it was, ‘Right. That’s the end of it. Good luck, chaps. On your way.’ We were bombing communication centres. In fact, we went to Saarbrücken which was a blitz on communication centre. At night. That was a trip. Five hours twenty. And this one, Dortmund. Well, we had a tale to tell there. Our flight engineer had been taken sick and we had a replacement. We’d done the trip and were in the circuit and into our finals probably about four hundred feet. Two starboard motors cut so you’ve got a dead wing. So you fell out of the skies then. Hit the deck with our starboard undercarriage. In the meantime the skipper said, ‘What the [pause] is up?’ The engineer knew exactly what was up he hadn’t switched over to main tanks which he should have coming in to land. Anyway, we hit the deck with our starboard wheel. The engineer knew exactly. Switched over the tanks. We were still on the ground. The tail was still up in the air and the skipper had gone full bore through the gate as it were and the two starboard motors came on. The two port motors cut. So we were on the deck. Left starboard port, starboard port, starboard port. And the pilot managed to keep it flying still and pulled up over the perimeter lights back in to the circuit again. The station engineering officer was watching us come in. ‘Where the bloody hell did you get to?’ [laughs] ‘We had a bit of trouble flight.’ ‘Oh. Alright.’ Anyway, the next morning the CO calls the skipper in and said, ‘You did good work last night, Hick,’ he said, ‘But we do like our cross countries to be taken in the air.’ [laughs] What I forgot to say is that each crew is introduced to the wing commander flying. So, we were, it was our turn to go in to meet him and produce our logbooks and he turned to the skipper and he said, ‘You’re not going to fly with these two are you?’ he says, ‘Yes, sir. I am.’ He said, ‘But look at their results.’ He said, ‘I’m not bothered about that,’ he said, ‘As a crew they’re ideal. We’re putting up with that.’ So, more or less, ‘On your head be it.’
CJ: So, can we come back to —
ES: Yes.
CJ: When you were going on operations. So, you’ve had the main briefings, you’ve had final briefings with the gunners. How then did you prepare yourselves and the aircraft before you actually went on the op and how did you check the aircraft out?
ES: Well, the aircraft was checked by the ground crew and there was usually a flight, a sergeant or a flight sergeant in charge. Chiefy, he would be called. After a while you adapted your flying kit to how you were more comfortable in it. So you would [pause] what the hell was it called? Anyway, you’d go to the crew room where you started putting your flying gear on. Mostly the last thing you picked up was your parachute. And the girls were usually doing the parachutes as you know and they would fit you with a harness. And you can imagine the ribald remarks that were going on.
CJ: So, when you say girls these were WAAFs.
ES: Yes. These were WAAFs. Anyway, they made sure that your harness was the right fit and the warning was, ‘If you pull your parachute we’ll fine you half a crown to repack it.’ Anyway, you adopted all manner of kit somehow. Just what you were happy with and comfortable with and —
CJ: So how did you, as a rear gunner keep warm in a turret that wasn’t heated?
ES: Well, you had a heated flying suit. It was called an inner flying suit. Besides the silk underwear that you had which was pure silk, and you had silk gloves and then leather gloves. Or silk gloves first and then you’d have your heated gloves and then your leather gloves. You did adopt, as I say the clothing that you felt comfortable in. Prompt.
CJ: And when you were actually on an operation then obviously you as a rear gunner would be looking out for aircraft. Were you ever attacked and what would your job have been if you had been attacked?
ES: Fortunately we were never attacked by fighters but plenty of flak. If we had been attacked by fighters we would go into a movement called a corkscrew. And the corkscrew enabled you to keep out of the range of the enemy aircraft should they attack you. Whichever side he attacked from you flew into that. You flew down a thousand, this is in the corkscrew, you flew down a thousand feet, rolled at the bottom where if you were being followed by a fighter he would have to do the same thing and you’d literally be face to face and if you were lucky enough you could get off a few shots and maybe and shoot him down. But after, after the first thousand foot you came up again a thousand feet. Down again. Continue that movement until you, he either shot you down or your shot him down.
CJ: So, if you had to do that manoeuvre and you were being attacked I assume would you be trying to shoot at the fighter as you were doing the corkscrew?
ES: Oh yes. You would pass him at the bottom which was called, the term called rolling. And yes. More or less at point blank range.
CJ: So those were your operations. So you, I believe you completed a full tour. Is that correct?
ES: We did.
CJ: Thirty.
ES: Yes. Thirty two. The first trip was a spare trip. And the second spare was where were we? The second spare trip was [pause – pages turning] Oh, west of Utrecht in Holland. We did it a spoof raid helping the Army. Dropping dummy parachutes.
CJ: So was there a big celebration with the crew when you finished your tour of ops?
ES: We didn’t go overboard let’s say. We went to Duisburg once. A blitz on communication centres. Now, that was a thousand bomber raid. And we went in the afternoon, around about half past two in two waves of five hundred. And on the way in to the target I should think about half to three quarters of a mile away there were three aircraft, obviously from the same squadron flying in a vic of three. He must have been carrying a Cookie because the leading aircraft blew up. So that was five tons of bombs blown up. His starboard wingman caught light. Did the same thing. Blew Up. And the port section from the door back was blown away. But they must have all been killed by — [door squeaking in the background] the wind.
Other: I’ll just shut the door.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you mentioned a Cookie blowing up. Could you tell us what that is please?
ES: That was a four thousand pound bomb with a very thin skin. And [pause] we carried that on a number of occasions actually. Let’s look.
[pause]
ES: Chemical factories. We were bombing any targets that were beneficial to the enemy.
CJ: So, you did, you did a tour which was actually two more than the standard. You did thirty two operations. So, did you remain on the squadron after that?
ES: No. We were posted on leave then for six weeks. And then I was posted to Thurso in Scotland. Anyway, there’s an item here that I would bring to your notice. We were bombing gun emplacements in Holland at a place called Westkapelle. And heavy gun emplacement positions, eleven by a thousand in that, but it was funny because on that particular trip we lost an aircraft. 90 Squadron that is. Can you read — ?
[recording paused]
CJ: So, on your tour of operations were there any other notable operations that you recall?
ES: Well, there was one. I think [pause] the pronunciation I think is Siegen. Anyway, we were about two hours forty in to our trip and we were recalled. Now it’s not very advisable to land with a full bomb load on so they were always dropped in the Channel. Now, this happened to be the day that Glen Miller was being transported in an American Norseman communications aircraft to France and he went missing. No idea where. Otherwise they would have been looking for him I think. But that was rather unfortunate.
CJ: And how many, how many aircraft were on that?
ES: It would probably be about three hundred aircraft on that particular trip all dropping their bombs into the Channel. We went the following day to the same target which was a communication blitz. [pause] Getting into December. About the 21st of December we went to a target called Triere marshalling yards and on this occasion we led 90 Squadron. The next, on the 23rd we went back to Triere again bombing marshalling yards and we were detailed as the deputy master bombers. The last trip was to a target called Rheydt. Marshalling yards again and on this trip we led the thirty three base and the attack. And the very last trip was on the 31st of December to Koblenz which was again marshalling yards with a bomb load of one Cookie, six by a thousand and two by five hundred. That was the end of our tour.
CJ: So you did your thirty two operations and then you said, I believe you had six weeks leave. Is that correct?
ES: It seemed like six weeks. On the last seventeen targets that we bombed we had our own aircraft. L for love.
CJ: So, what, what did you do then after your leave?
ES: Well —
CJ: At the end of the tour of ops.
ES: I was asked if I wanted to stay in the RAF and I would have done but the girl I eventually married wasn’t keen on it so I came out in ’47. And fortunately, her parents were friends with a neighbour and he was the head cashier of Shell Mex in the Strand and he got me an interview for a job and I became an accounts clerk. After five years [pause] Oh, the other good thing about it was we were buying their house through one of their companies and the house was Joyce’s, well my wife’s grandparent’s house. Fourteen hundred pounds it cost us. Anyway, after five years Shell Mex had an economy drive so it was last out first in. No. Last in first out. Mostly servicemen. So, going home in the train that night I happened to meet one of my football colleagues. I told him, ‘I’m out of a job next week.’ ‘Are you?’ He said, ‘Well, we’re looking for staff.’ I said, ‘Are you sure?’ He said, ‘Yes. Come along and get an interview.’ So I went to, it was with the British Iron and Steel Corporation. Or in those days, early days the Iron and Steel Board, 1953. I became eventually the head office cashier. Then a job came along for their overseas department and so I decided to join them, still in the accountant’s side and became the project accountant for the English side of a Saudi Arabian contract and we also had a project accountant on the Riyadh side. So individually we were buying Stirling equipment, or buying equipment with sterling and out there they were buying equipment with riyals [pause] We also had a contract with building a steel plant in Mexico. Was it Mexico? Yes. Mexico. And that proved to be a very lucrative contract. In the meantime, of course I married Joyce in 1948. I met her in ’46. As usual at a dance. Most servicemen who’d met a girl they’d met her at a dance. We had two children. Or we had two children. My son is a safety consultant with Petrochem. And Joyce was a marvellous mother. We had, as I say a boy and a girl. They provided us with seven grandchildren. And the seven grandchildren provided us with fourteen great grandchildren. Unfortunately, Joyce died about three years ago. She would have been ninety and we would have been married, if she was still alive now we would have been married seventy years. But they’ve been very good to me. Looked after me well. So, anyway —
CJ: So after the war were you able to keep in touch with your, the other members of the crew?
ES: Well, we had a Squadron Association which ran for twenty years. And myself [pause] who else? [pause] I think I was the only one who, from the crew who joined the Association. We’re now part of what is called the Mildenhall Register. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it. It’s got five squadrons 9, 15, 90 and 22. Or was it 622. Excuse me a minute.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Ted, 90 Squadron was included in the Mildenhall Register, the Association along with 15, 149 and 622. So did you usually go to reunions that they had?
ES: When I was able to yes we did mostly. But as the years went on and the members got older the numbers were falling down and to keep the Association going you joined with other groups. Likewise the Mildenhall Register which is made up of four bomber squadrons and is still operating. They were good, good functions. We used to probably get about in all aircrew and relations about a hundred and fifty people would attend. And nine times out of ten we would be hosted by the Yanks who were at Lakenheath and they couldn’t do enough for you. When, when we had a meet we also had a church service. We’ve got a roll of honour in the local church which is very old. We probably lost about five hundred and twenty chaps between ‘39 and 1945 and they provided, I’ve got one or two photographs here if you’d like to see them.
[recording paused]
ES: Unfortunately I haven’t been able to get to these functions since they take up two days and I don’t drive anymore. My son and daughter decided I was getting too old. No. Really it was because I’d developed Parkinsons although once you get in to a car and get behind the wheel you’re a different person. That’s what I kept intimating. ‘For Christ’s sake I can drive. I know I can.’
CJ: So, tell me something. For you, as a member of aircrew, how do you feel Bomber Command were treated after the war? Do you think they were given sufficient recognition?
ES: None at all. We were so long getting recognition we wondered why we were doing it. No. It’s appalling I think the way we’ve were being treated. Especially by Churchill. All right he was the man for us during the war but to ignore the fact that propaganda put the kibosh on anything he was going to say in favour of Bomber Command. All this talk about thousands and thousands of people being killed. That’s war. We’re all involved. I mean we had to take it. They’d taken it their way as well but we proved to have a bigger fist then they had. No. I don’t regret my service or what I did one moment. I just regret that we didn’t get the recognition we deserved because we lost a hell of a lot of good chaps.
CJ: I believe recently you’ve had a stay in Lincolnshire and visited a few places. Would you like to tell us about that?
ES: Well, I went to the Lincoln Memorial. The Spire. You’ve been there obviously. That is really something. Solid steel going to rust. And it’s going to be quite a feature. And there were quite a few deaths marked there which is unfortunate again. Anyway, my nephew, who lives in Grantham arranged for us to break off the guided tour we were getting with Shearings, ‘Give me a ring when you’ve seen the two outdoor museums and I’ll take you about.’ Phoned him up. He comes along. I said, ‘What are we doing?’ He said, ‘Oh, I’ve got something lined up for you.’ So he spoke to one of the ladies helping at the Lincoln Spire. He said, ‘I want to try and get Ted into a group going around the Memorial Flight. Battle of Britain Memorial Flight.” So this lady gets through to Coningsby. Says, ‘Yes. We’ve got a group going around. He can join that,’ which I did do. After a tour around we got invited back to the waiting room, had a coffee, spoke to about five other aircrew, four of which, four of whom were tail gunners and one of them was [pause] ok. Beg your pardon, do you know it?
CJ: Yeah. Ted’s handed me a copy of the book, “A Tail End Charlie’s Story,” by James Flowers. Yes. I’m aware of it. But I think you had an extra surprise in store at Coningsby with the Memorial Flight. Is that correct?
ES: Yes. We, they pulled the Lanc out for those who wanted to take photographs of it and they pulled it back in. It was before this that we’d gone to the saloon. What am I talking about saloon? The lounge, to have coffee and meet these other lads, bods. And then the acting CO called me over and he said, ‘Would you like to come with me?’ I said, ‘Yes sir. Where are we going?’ He said, ‘Just follow me.’ So we walked back into the hangar and he took me to the Lanc. There was a staircase there, ‘It’s all yours,’ he said, ‘See how quickly you can get into the turret.’ Oh my God. You’ve got the two handles here, up here and you just pull yourself and slide in. I could at one time [laughs] God, it was bloody awful. I loved every minute but it was chronic. It was painful. That was getting in. Getting out, well I’d have been mincemeat I think because I’d have had to get out to get the ruddy parachute. Oh, that was something else that I remember. I had a fire in the turret. A short circuit at night which was a bloody nuisance. Still have to rotate your turret though port starboard. Eventually I got out, and I thanked him very much you know and he gave me one or two little items of memorabilia.
CJ: So what memories came back to you when you were actually in the turret?
ES: I’m trying to remember. The flying gear I had on wasn’t extremely bulky. And flying boots. It was like putting a cork, a stopper in a bottle. Pfft you’re in. And getting out was as easy. We’d go out two ways. Either by the door or turn the turret around and go out backwards which was the safest way to do it. Yes. It did bring back some memories. But it seemed so enclosed. I don’t remember it being like that. Perhaps because I’ve put on a bit of weight [laughs] It was fantastic. It really was. I couldn’t have wished for a better thing. I just felt sorry for those that didn’t make it.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today, Ted.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Edward John Smith
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithEJ180705, PSmithEJ1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:19:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Edward served on 90 Squadron as a rear gunner. Born in 1925 on the Isle of Sheppey, he was employed as a butcher’s boy at the outbreak of the war. Evenings were spent fire watching, for which he received a small wage from the council. He became a member of the Air Training Corps and enlisted in the RAF on his eighteenth birthday. Edward chose to be a rear gunner because the path to being operational was approximately half the time to that of a pilot or navigator. After initial training, he was posted to the Air Gunnery School in South Wales. He recalls using inferior ammunition from the First World War and watching the bullets cartwheel towards the targets. Despite this handicap, Edward qualified and progressed through to operational training. Whilst in Suffolk, the mid-upper gunner, Ken Bird, purchased a motorcycle but unfortunately did not obtain any petrol coupons. Edward tells how they relied on the generosity of passing Americans to keep them mobile. Finally, his crew qualified and were posted onto the Lancasters of 90 Squadron. His first operation was with another crew covering for a sick gunner. In total he flew thirty-two operations, supporting the advancing ground forces and attacking the supply lines of the retreating German army. Although they were not attacked directly, they were hit by anti-aircraft fire on one occasion. Both the tail and main plane were hit, leaving holes big enough to put your head in, and a piece of shrapnel passed through his turret fortunately missing him. Following the completion of his operational tour, Edward spent the remainder of his service career on ground tours, finally being demobbed in 1947.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
Germany--Kamen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1944
90 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
RAF Feltwell
RAF Pembrey
RAF Shepherds Grove
RAF Tuddenham
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1164/11723/PTownsendE1702.2.jpg
b0cd1f61cd602bfb21b82eb825bc19a9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1164/11723/ATownsendE170207.1.mp3
bbb09ec8afc98352b2c5d648196cd2c0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Townsend, Ernest
E Townsend
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ernest Townsend (1925 -2020, 1812237 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Townsend, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Ernest Townsend today for the International Bomber Command Centres digital archive. We’re at Ernest’s home in Sittingbourne, in Kent and it’s Tuesday the 7th February 2017. Thank you very much, Ernest, for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview are Ernest’s wife June and daughter June. So thanks very much for chatting to us today, perhaps we could start with your early life, would you like to tell us where and when you were born and what Mum and Dad did?
ET: Yes certainly. I was born in Marylebone, London, er, we lived in Chelsea, and then after a while, we moved to Wandsworth. And then I went to school, er, Eltringham Street School and that was the only school I ever went to.
CJ: And what did your Dad do, was he working?
ET: My Dad was working as a milk roundsman, but he had this – well I admit he was ill – he had this feeling that if he didn’t go to work, if he went sick, he’d get the sack. So what used to happen sometimes, which I used to dread, I wasn’t all that old, I must have been about eleven, twelve, [background noises] my Mum used to wake me up and say ‘your Dad’s ill, er, you’re needed, you’re needed today, would you meet him’, and I – you don’t know in London, I don’t s’pose – ‘meet, meet your Dad, he wants you to help him’. So I used to get up and go all the way over to Everidges, about three miles, on me own, that was about four o’clock in the morning and then we used to, I [emphasis] used to drop the milk off outside the doors and he was a horse and cart job, yeah.
CJ: And didn’t he have some illness because of a problem during the war? First war?
ET: I think he mainly, yeah, his illness was, in the first war he was a Marine, but him and his friend got posted on to er, I think it was a trawler, I think, but he got, he got sunk anyway and he was, he was in the water for three, three days and I think that didn’t do him a lot of good. But I loved me Mum and I loved me Dad.
CJ: And what about school, what did you, what were you good at there?
ET: Oh I was alright at school, yeah, er, but it wasn’t a top-class school. This chap always used to come in front of me first, James his name was and I used to be second and I couldn’t, I could not [emphasis] beat him, don’t matter what I done, so I kept trying but that was how it was. Nah, I thought I was alright, very intelligent. And then the, the war came, and in the end I went and volunteered.
CJ: So did you have a job after leaving school? Before –
ET: Yeah.
CJ: You went to the RAF?
ET: Oh yeah, I had a job as a butcher’s boy and that was up, I don’t, that was in Shepherds Market and that’s got a reputation, nah, better not say what the reputation is, but it’s not very nice, the girls there. Anyway [pause] it was er, I worked there and then I wanted to go in the Air Force so I went and volunteered.
CJ: So why did you volunteer for the Air Force rather than one of the other services?
ET: Because that’s what I wanted to do, I wanted to fly. Yeah [pause], I thought it was special really and I got, I got called up and I was asked to attend St John’s Wood, er, you know where that is don’t you?
CJ: Yes.
ET: And I was there a few weeks and then I went to, er, where had I gone to [pause], I can’t remember where I went to really.
CJ: So, was St John’s Wood the initial training?
ET: Er, St John’s Wood, not really, they just held you there for a while, while they posted you. And they posted me to, everybody got posted somewhere different, ‘s’, began with ‘s’, it did, it’s [pause] anyway.
CJ: So Ernest, before you joined up, I think you were in the Air Training Corps? Was that correct?
ET: I was in the Air Training Corps, yes. Er, the reason I was in the Air Training Corps, they were having a competition and, what’s his name, Blackwood, he was a Scottish international footballer, he heard of my reputation so he wanted me to play for the team, because they were having a competition in London. And of course, I played and [emphasis] we won. The whole of London! Yeah. Yeah, I s’pose my life was based on bloody football.
CJ: [Laughs] so did the Air Training Corps lead you to joining up in the RAF rather than another service?
ET: Oh yeah, you go up and have your interview up there, where was it, up in Euston I think it was, where I went and, yeah, strict. You have, you have interviews and lot of things you have, but I passed, so it was alright.
CJ: So then you said you went to St John’s Wood
ET: [coughing]
CJ: And then after that, I think you said it was Stratford-on-Avon?
ET: Yeah, I went to er, Stratford-on-Avon ITU. Stratford-on-Avon.
CJ: And so what were you doing there?
ET: Whatever people – it’s like school really, you was tuning yourself up to get better education really, that’s what it was.
CJ: So was this initial training?
ET: Yes
CJ: Umm hmm. So what did that consist of?
ET: Well, Mathematics and English and lots of things, write out something, some type of story or something like that. It was, it was interesting.
CJ: And where were you posted to after that, do you remember?
ET: Yeah, I went to Worcester, I was gonna be a pilot. We went down there and started flying Tiger Moths, but I was unlucky. The bloke who was my test, well I s’pose he was a test pilot, he was like that [pause], but he used to sit in it and just about get in the doing and I couldn’t see nothing! That was the worst of it and when we used to – alright getting up but when I come down to land, I was leaning right over, right out, oh my gawd, right over, leaning right over, yes, so [laughs] that’s what happened.
CJ: So he was so big that he was in the seat in front of you and you couldn’t see past him, is that it?
ET: I’ll prove the point, he went off for a few days and a young bloke who’d been Battle of Britain bloke, really young, small bloke, and he was there, I was right as rain. Yeah, so, we done, you do twelve of those, twelve flights. Anyway, after that I, where’d I go?
CJ: So what, so you weren’t qualified as a pilot, you didn’t pass out as a pilot?
ET: I didn’t pass out as a pilot, no, but then, er, where’d I go? Worcester? [pause] No.
CJ: So you said you were in Worcester, erm, and then were did you go after that? That was after the flying training?
ET: Yeah, I got a feeling I went up to, er, Manchester. Oh no, have I missed one out? Don’t know. No I don’t think so. I went up to Manchester.
CJ: So had you been selected as a bomb aimer then, how did that happen?
ET: Once I got up to, once I got up to there and er, just waiting to be posted somewhere else, and I got posted to the Isle of Man.
CJ: Umm hmm.
ET: That’s where you kind of train, the final training and they judge you then, that’s when I got picked as a bomb aimer there.
CJ: So how did you come to be selected as bomb aimer, did you have a particular skill they were looking for or did they just say you, you and you?
ET: Right, a particular skill. I did, I was really good at things like that, yeah, and you got, you become a sergeant, yeah, and then you came back again and went to OTU. And when you’re in the OTU, you went in a great big hanger, huge, and er, you had pilot, the pilots were in more or less one corner, navigators the other side, bomb aimers there and then they just walk away and say, ‘sort yourselves out and make crews out of you lot, will ya’. And I done well, I had this er, Australian bloke Bluey Lacuda, he was a wonderful bloke, Bluey Lacuda. Why was he Bluey? Because he had ginger hair [laughter], yeah. Yeah, he was a good bloke, he was a good pilot, yeah.
CJ: So how did, Bluey and the rest of you, pick the rest of the crew? You had to make a crew of seven, is that right?
ET: Yeah, first of all what he picked, he picked Jock Simpson, he was a Scotsman come from Dundee, and then those two picked me and then we picked, I think, I forget who we picked then.
CJ: Was it the gunners?
ET: No, before that, they had the –
CJ: Engineer?
ET: Yeah, there was the engineer and then there was also the, the person who was the –
CJ: Wireless operator?
ET: Yes, seven people in the crew, yeah.
CJ: And so did you train as a crew there or did you go somewhere else?
ET: Er, we went, trained, yeah, we did train there I think, yeah. Yeah, we trained there.
CJ: And this was Moreton in the Marsh, you said?
ET: Yeah.
CJ: And how did it come about for you to be posted to a squadron once you’d completed the training?
ET: I don’t know who told, who posted us there, but we went there. We could have gone, nah, I think they gave us the option, you could go to 50 or 61, because there was two of those on that airfield, so we went to 61. No, my pilot was a wonderful bloke. Only a little bloke but he was a good pilot. I mean, he said to me, ‘you’ve got the knack of flying, you better have a few practice flights’, and I did. Wonderful, wonderful. Yeah. I should, I should have been a pilot.
CJ: And what was the Lancaster like to fly?
ET: Er, once you got it in the air [laughter], it was alright, but I took off the first time and I went there, and I went there, and I went there, and old Bluey said, ‘put your foot down, the left foot down on that metal bar will you please and get back’, [laughter] and we got back again and we got in the air and he took over [laughter].
CJ: And how long was it then, before you went on your first operation?
ET: About, oh, about two months I reckon. Yeah, I think the first one we went to was Cologne, but on one occasion, we got a hit coming back and old Bluey said, ‘I don’t know whether we’ll get back to Skellingthorpe, do you?’ I said, ‘I know we won’t, but I do know somewhere we can go’. We went down to Kent, so we landed there. Big, long runway.
CJ: Was that Manston?
ET: Yeah, yes, that was it.
CJ: So what condition was the aircraft in then when you landed?
ET: Er, two engines had gone, well they could repair them I s’pose, but they was gone. He could’ve, I reckon he might’ve got up there, I don’t know, it wasn’t worth taking the chance if we could land there at Manston, yeah.
CJ: And do you remember any other particular raids that you went on?
ET: Er, went to Hamburg – nasty. Alright, we’re saying how we caught it all alight, but er, no they gave us a hammering, they did. No, a lot of them gave us a hammering, and I was in the front.
CJ: So what was it like when you were on an operation then, for a bomb aimer, do you want to talk us through it? From, like, how you found out where you were going and how you prepared for it?
ET: Yeah, we met usually in the morning or afternoon, and they told you where you were gonna go, and er, told you quite a lot about the town you’re gonna go to, or the place you’re gonna go to, and that was it. Then, alright I never went to Berlin, but I know a bloke who did, a crew who did, they bailed out over Berlin, and this one bloke, I knew him, he was in another plane and he bailed out. He got to the ground, he didn’t see his mates in the crew, but they got hold of him, all the people like, people in London, and they were gonna hang him to a lamp-post. And he said a policeman came along with a gun and herded the people out and just arrested me, type of thing, so he saved his life. Yeah, but don’t care what you say, we was all afraid.
CJ: Mm. So then you found out, in the afternoon, where you were going, how was it decided what bomb load you carried?
ET: Er, I used to talk to the person who was the, who did I say, before?
CJ: The armourer?
ET: Yeah. We used to have a chat and we’d decide. Mostly it’s fourteen thousand, yeah, so -
CJ: What, there were different bomb loads, different mixtures of bombs that you carried?
ET: Oh yeah, yeah, there were different types. We used to work it out.
CJ: So you usually carried what, a four thousand pound cookie? A big one?
ET: Yeah
CJ: And –
ET: Ten, we used to carry ten. Ten one thousand pounders, yeah. I’ll tell you what I didn’t like though, really, one of the – I did know him – he was flying, I think he was an air gunner, he was flying this other plane and we were going on this raid, I forget which raid it was. And he just said, ‘oh no, I’m not going’, and he just stepped down. He said ‘I’m not going’, I said, ‘you are, get in’, he said ‘I’m not going’, and he wouldn’t go! So I said, ‘fair enough, you can go LMF then’, lack of moral fibre. Yeah, so that’s what happened to him, and I didn’t like that ‘cause they was all volunteers. Yeah.
CJ: So how many operations did you go on?
ET: Eleven. No, it’s a matter of luck. Luck, luck, luck.
CJ: And after the eleventh then, how come you didn’t do any more after that?
ET: Because the war stopped, it stopped. When was it, that it stopped. We was, er, they told old Bluey, ‘you’re gonna go over to Australia, taking your crew with you, because the war is still on out there, against those’. So we was getting all ready to go, and we was all ready to go, and they dropped the atom bomb, didn’t they, and that was the end of that.
CJ: So what was life like on the base, what was the food like and what did you get up to when you were between operations?
ET: Kicking a ball about [laughter], no, I thought I was good at football but I had a rude awakening. Old Jock Simpson, a Scotsman, we were kicking the ball about and he come over, he took over, he was a bloody good player, he was. He said he played for Dundee [laughter], he was good, yeah. Me and him didn’t get on though.
CJ: And did you socialise much with the other crews, or did you –
ET: Oh yeah –
CJ: - keep to yourselves?
ET: Oh no, they had WAAFs there [laughter], yeah, oh yeah.
CJ: So how much time did you have? I suppose it depended on the weather, the time between the operations?
ET: Yeah, that’s how it was really.
CJ: Umm hmm.
ET: Time between the operations, yeah.
CJ: So then the war ended, the bomb was dropped –
ET: When was it, when did the war end, was it the eighth of April, or – yeah, that’s when it stopped.
CJ: So were you demobbed straight after that?
ET: No
CJ: Or did you stay in the Air Force for a while?
ET: No I stayed in the Air Force. I didn’t get demobbed ‘til eighty-seven.
CJ: Forty-seven.
ET: Forty-seven, yeah.
CJ: So what were you doing then after, between the end of the war and up to forty-seven?
ET: I was going round all the radar stations, taking them on the range and showing them how to fire a rifle. Then I went round Norfolk, went all the way round to – first of all to the Isle of Wight, but then I came back to this place down here.
CJ: Somewhere in Kent is it, Lid –
ET: Datling.
CJ: Datling, Maidstone, ok. Sorry, I think I missed a bit out because we went off on another track. Can I just come back to the bit about where you’re going on an operation, and you’ve found out where you’re going, and you’ve been told what your bomb load would be. Can you tell me how you went on from there, to actually going on the raid and how your job, er –
ET: My job –
CJ: – was carried out on the operation.
ET: To check everything, if it was loaded properly but er, always used to be alright.
CJ: So, you checked with the armourers on the ground that the bombs were correctly loaded and shackled.
ET: Yeah [pause], but I’ve got to say, I was scared, no good saying anything different.
CJ: So, once you’d got up in the air then, what was your job before you got to the target?
ET: Map reading, not sitting right in the front of the aircraft, then when we come up, I used to more or less take over. [pause] Sometimes, depends where we was going we used to chuck stuff out of the, you’ve heard of it, window?
CJ: Window, is it the aluminium strips to fool the radar?
ET: Yeah, we had a load of blinds up there. I used to do that, but once we got up near the target I used to take over.
CJ: So can you describe what you actually did then, as you were running up to the target?
ET: I’d say, ‘Skipper, I’ve got the target in sight. Right, steady [pause], steady, left, left, steady’, oh, I forgot to open bomb doors! [laughter]
CJ: So you, yeah, you’ve already got the bomb doors open, hopefully [laughter]
ET: Yeah
CJ: So how did you sight on the target then, you had a bomb sight to work with?
ET: Oh yeah. When you’re training, you’ve got a bomb sight mark nine. When you’re actually flying on operation, you’re at mark fourteen. Very good bomb sight. Yeah, I used to be pretty good really.
CJ: So how did you actually identify the target and then decide when to drop the bombs?
ET: Well they used to give the bomb aimer a little map beforehand and that’s when he sorted it all out. And yeah, it was alright.
CJ: So, did they drop markers ahead of you, on the target for you?
ET: Oh yeah, it was all marked when we saw it, had markers.
CJ: So, then you’re running up to the target, and through the bomb sight, and then how do you decide exactly when you release the bombs?
ET: It is down to the bomb aimer, he decides I should hit it from here and then he releases it, and I believe I hit it on most occasions, yeah.
CJ: So were you able to see the bombs hitting to know where they’d gone?
ET: The rear gunner used to. Used to ask him and he’d tell us.
CJ: And did you have to take photographs?
ET: Oh yeah.
CJ: Umm. So, then what, after you’d dropped bombs, what were you up to before you got back to base?
ET: Well I used to sit there, sit in the front, and just more or less keep an eye on map reading, because I didn’t have confidence in the navigator [laughter], I didn’t. I said, ‘Jock, you know we’re going alright?’ he said, ‘’course we are’, ‘I know we’re not!’ And he oh, he really had the arse on then.
CJ: So, once you got back to base, then what, did you have to have a debriefing?
ET: Oh yeah. Once you got back you had a debriefing and they told you then, they knew more or less, they told you exactly what it was all about. Yeah, so you thought ‘oh, that’s all over’, but it could happen again the next day, it could, but it only happened once. But that’s the thing.
CJ: So, then you said you were demobbed in forty-seven, so what were you doing after that, did you manage to find a job straight away?
ET: Yep, well, butcher’s boy [laughter], that was alright. Nah, I was gonna go and be a postman. I went up there to take this test, I took it, I done alright and then my Dad said, ‘I’ve got a job for you’. Oh yeah, one of his clients you know, he said he reckoned he could do with a boy like me [laughter], I couldn’t say nothing, that was it.
CJ: So, whereabouts was the butcher’s?
ET: Shepherds Market.
CJ: Yes.
ET: Now you musn’t say you ever been to Shepherds Market, people will get the wrong idea. [laughter]
CJ: And did you have anybody well-known that came to the shop?
ET: Oh yeah, she’s told you already.
CJ: Do you want to tell us?
ET: What, come in the shop?
CJ: Any famous people?
ET: David Niven came, he was one of our customers. Er, what’s her name, what’s her name? [whispered]
CJ: I think somebody mentioned Anna Neagle?
ET: Yeah, Anna Neagle, yeah. I used to deliver to her, she lived in Park Lane. I used to deliver, she was on about the third floor and on one of the walls, like, out there she had her picture, yeah.
CJ: So were you still playing football at this time?
ET: Yep.
CJ: Who were you playing for?
ET: Battersea United
CJ: And what league were they in and how well did they get on?
ET: They were a good team. Because I became the captain [laughter] and they had to be a good team. Ask her, June?
CJ: So how long did you go on playing football for?
ET: Oh, [background noise] about a couple of years I s’pose
CJ: And what about the butchering, how long did you stick with that for?
ET: I was there when I was 14, 17, three and a half years, I think.
CJ: And so, what were you doing after that?
ET: Well I went, started going in the Air Force.
CJ: Yeah, sorry, after the war when you, in forty-seven, you said you were demobbed, so were you back to butchering then?
ET: No, I went and worked at London Transport.
CJ: Ok, and what were you doing there?
ET: They was advertising, well you’ve seen them, bills across the track, y’know, and up the escalator, on the trains and all that. And anyway, I always wanted to be the boss so, I became the boss. [laughs]
CJ: And how long did you stay with London Transport?
ET: Only forty years.
CJ: Only forty years.
ET: Yeah.
CJ: So was that up to retirement?
ET: Yes.
CJ: Ok, and what about the rest of the crew that you flew with, did you keep in touch with them after the war?
ET: I did in the beginning. We went to, he become a, a quarter master, yeah, he got made up, old Bluey. He was a flight sergeant but he become a [pause], he was pushed up to the next one anyway. Quarter – what they call them? Was it quarter master?
CJ: So what, he stayed in the Air Force, or he was –
ET: He went back to, he went back to, er, Australia. But we went to Australia, didn’t we June? [background noise]
CJ: So, this work at London Transport, I think there was some link with football, is that right?
ET: Correct, yes. Yep.
CJ: And what was it?
ET: Well, they wanted you to play football, and you kind of get a bit of a reputation in front of you, and people come, come after you, they do.
CJ: But I think you were working nights at London Transport, is that right? Was there a link with the football?
ET: No, that was alright. It wasn’t really but, I thought, if you’re on nights, you get more money.
CJ: And you said you’d been playing for a local team, did you have any trials with any big teams?
ET: Yep. Fulham.
CJ: And how did that work out?
ET: They wanted me, they signed me on.
CJ: So, you were playing for Fulham?
ET: I played for Fulham for a while, yeah, yep, but I realised I wasn’t as good as I thought I was when I got mixed up with them. They were really good, yeah.
CJ: And, er, how old were you when you stopped playing football, do you remember?
ET: Thirty, yeah.
CJ: So, after all these years at London Transport, did you retire after that or did you go to another job?
ET: No, I went part-time job, didn’t I? I was looking for, I was still looking for work, yeah, driver.
CJ: And what company were you driving for, what were you driving?
ET: I went and got a job, you told me, didn’t you? She said, ‘Dad, I’ve seen an advert in the paper, they want a taxi driver down at [pause], down at Eastchurch. So, I went down there and the bloke, it was only a small place, he said, ‘oh yeah’, he said, ‘do you know London?’ I said, ‘yeah, of course I do’. He said, ‘well I don’t like it, I don’t like going to London’, he said, ‘you’ll be ideal then for it’. He said, ‘and also, we’ve got a contract to take these naughty people up to the prison, or up to the court’. Used to take them, well they’ve got three prisons down there now, but they had two then. But yeah, it was alright. [pause] I know – [background noise]
CJ: So how did you come to meet your lovely wife, Ernest, was that through football as well?
ET: No, this time it was through cricket. I didn’t realise she was, took a liking to me, so she decided she liked me so, er, that’s how it happened.
CJ: And how long have you been married now?
ET: Sixty-two years. Yeah.
CJ: And –
ET: It don’t seem a day too long.
CJ: [laughs] As the song goes. So, coming back to Bomber Command, how do you think you, and other people who were in Bomber Command, were treated after the war?
ET: Not very good [pause] no, not very good
CJ: Do you want to expand on that?
ET: Well, we was all made more or less redundant and then, er, they gave – you’ve got to do something while you’re in the RAF and I thought this is a chance for me, I couldn’t drive and I thought this is a chance, I’ll get to learn to drive. When I got there, being interviewed, they said what would you like to do. ‘I’d like to be a driver’, they said, ‘sorry, all those places are taken, you can be a –‘ [pause], [laughs], I forget what they said after I got back. But, er –
CJ: And what about recognition of Bomber Command now, I think you said that you’d been up to the new memorial in London?
ET: Yeah, I think more of it now. Oh yeah.
CJ: And did you just visit the memorial, or were you there for the opening?
ET: We was there for the opening.
CJ: So I gather you had a presentation yesterday, of the Légion d’Honneur. Can you tell me about how you were picked for that, and how you were told about it, and where the presentation was?
ET: We had the presentation in Sittingbourne, in a great big hall down there and it was very enjoyable. The person who, er, gave me it was the mayor, the mayoress really, and yeah it was alright. Lot of people, a lot of people, I was surprised. A lot of people went there who, well I don’t know, I’m more popular than I thought! [laughs] Yeah, so I don’t know why they picked me out, I don’t know, but they did pick me out, so I must have been doing alright [background noise] Pardon?
CJ: So, who do you think nominated you then for this, this award?
ET: Well I assume it was the British Legion. I was surprised.
CJ: And were any other people being given the same award or was it just for you, yesterday?
ET: Just for me yesterday.
CJ: Well, congratulations on that. Ok, well thank you very much for talking to us today Ernest, it’s been a real pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ernset Townsend
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATownsendE170207
PTownsendE1702
Format
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00:42:49 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ernest was born in Marylebone, London. He tells of his childhood, how he helped his father on his milk round and became a butcher's boy at Shepherds Market before serving in the Air Training Corps. He joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 17 and a half. He tells of his joy at flying Tiger Moths, and his wish to be a pilot, and his posting to 61 Squadron flying in Lancasters. Ernest mentions Lack of Moral Fibre, and recounts the experience of another crewman who bailed out over Berlin, where he was arrested before he could be hanged by the local villagers. Ernest completed 11 operations, including Cologne and Hamburg. He also tells of what preparations were made for bombing runs, and how he did his job as a bomb aimer. Before being demobbed in 1947, Ernest spent time going around all the radar stations, doing rifle training. He then tells of his love of football, including playing opposite a former Dundee United Player and how, after the war, he signed for Fulham, playing only briefly, driving prisoners to court or prison and then working for London Transport for forty years. Ernset Townsend was awarded the Legion d’Honneur in 2017.
Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1947
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Language
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eng
61 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
fear
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
lynching
radar
sport
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/798/11748/PDelfosseJEC1701.2.jpg
2a4cb2bd8f4dd531c845c84cf02fa039
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/798/11748/AVanDammeJEC170727.1.mp3
7b94523499101f7c3528e0df6b491158
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Delfosse, Jack
John Edward Charles Delfosse
J E C Delfosse
John Edward Charles Van Damme
J E C Van Damme
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Jack Delfosse (1924 - 2020, 3032135 Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He flew operations as a pilot.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Delfosse and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Delfosse, JEC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing John Edward Charles Delfosse today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at a residential home in Hythe, Kent and it’s Thursday 27th of July 2017. Also present at the interview is John’s daughter, Cara. Well, thanks very much for agreeing to talk to us today. So could we start please perhaps by you telling us where and when you were born and what the family background was?
JD: The family background. My father was a lieutenant in the Belgian Army on the left of the canal at Yser. The Germans were on one side and the Belgians held it right down to Nieuwpoort. And then the Germans had smashed Ypres so badly, you know all the, they had Vickers machine guns which kept them. They just chucked the bodies in to the river. All covered with the blood all over. And the Belgians had to take over the whole of the line. The whole load. Look after their you know, father had Vickers machine guns. And then when the Second World War started, he said, ‘I don’t want you to be involved in any military action like that. I want you to get a Reserved Occupation.’ So, I said, ‘Fair enough.’ We went down to Paddington Moor Hospital and Dr Moran who was afterwards the physician who used to accompany Churchill every visit. Flew, he flew all over the world with Dr Moran. I became a medical student. I got halfway through the course and then they gave me the leg of a girl to dissect. It was stuffed and it was kept so bad I said ‘God, I can’t stick this. I’m not going to.’ And I walked out. I finished medical stuff. I walked straight onto the tube down to Euston House, to the basement where RAF recruiting was taking place. There were ten other chaps there and we got through all the tests. Eye tests, colour blindness.
Other: Dad.
JD: Teeth, ears, all the rest of it.
Other: Where were you brought up?
JD: Hmmn?
Other: Where were brought up?
JD: Highgate School.
Other: Ok. So —
JD: And a prep school first where they got us prepared for entry into Highgate.
Other: And where were you born?
JD: In Crouch End, in South East err North East London.
Other: Ok.
JD: Crouch End.
Other: And where were mum and dad from? Your mum and dad.
JD: They were both born in Ghent.
Other: Belgium.
JD: In Belgium. But that was long before the First World War.
Other: Yeah. We’re just talking about you. What happened when you were growing up? So, when you were growing up where did you used to go?
JD: I went to Highgate School, and I got passed out.
Other: You used to go to Belgium a lot didn’t you?
JD: Oh yes. We —
Other: For holidays.
JD: Every holiday. We had a villa in Le Zoute, right up against the Dutch border. We spent every single holiday there. Now, what else?
Other: And your mum. What happened with grandad and grandma? They, they ended up coming to England, didn’t they? From Belgium.
JD: Yeah. Well, my father said, ‘I’ve seen so much here and the Germans will be back again. You just wait. We’re going to sell and live in England.’ So we set up. We had a house in Folkestone and lived there for quite a time until the Second World War. And then the Second World War he said, ‘I don’t want you to join any military force’, and I was a med student as I told you, but then I couldn’t stick it and I went down to Euston House, in the basement and volunteered. Passed all the tests. And there were, in the end there was a board of four senior officers, well decorated. Two in front and two on the side. And they said, ‘Why do you want to fly?’ I said, ‘I’ve already learned to fly with my grandfather’s Stinson Reliant.’ And he said, ‘Where did you go to school?’ I said, ‘Highgate, just up the hill from here.’ And one of them stood up and said, ‘He’s alright. He’s an old Cholmeleian.’ And that was it. I was in.
CJ: So, so you chose the RAF because you could already fly.
JD: Yeah. And they said we haven’t got enough training schools available. Go back to your local aerodrome in [unclear] . We’ll give you a badge with RAF VR on it and the teachers locally teach all the kids their navigation, Morse code, marching. An RAF bloke taught the marching. And I was there for about, oh about a year and then the brown letter arrived, “Report to Viceroy Court”, and I reported early in the morning. I had the number 27 bus going near our house which went straight past there. Very good. In the basement of Viceroy Court there was a big dip down where they had a car park. It was all benches so, breakfast cooking. Went down there and they gave us a meal straight away, and I sat opposite Richard Attenborough. The actor who’d been in, “Brighton Rock,” you know, and I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ He said, ‘I’m volunteering.’ I said, ‘Well, you’re a bit short aren’t you?’ But he ended up at Manby as a, trained as a rear gunner until the Air Ministry realised that he had this acting ability and they made propaganda films with him to show, you know what happens if a member of a member of the crew is a coward and lets the rest down and things like that. And this was up at Heaton Park. We had to stand with capes, ground capes on us. It was pouring with rain. They sprayed water on us to indicate the rain because it’s always raining up there. Got soaked to the skin. And there we are.
CJ: So that was your initial training. And then —
JD: Initial training. And then at Heaton Park as I say was a step up, you know. They had various hut assortments. I was [pause] I put, was put in a hut. One side we had us RAF VR blokes and the others were University Air Squadron blokes and they thought they were a bit, bit upper class even though I’d been to university myself. Anyway, I refused to, I got the cigarette ash thing in the tea in the morning every time a draft came up because I wouldn’t cross the Atlantic with the submarines. And eventually there was, on the [pause] the corporal noticed on my docs that I’d been a medical student. He said, ‘So, you’re good at carving with a knife.’ He said, ‘Report up to the master butcher.’ A tiny room at the top. Big boxes, wide boxes, square boxes — lambs’ liver from New Zealand, and he said, ‘Carve those up before lunch.’ Gave me big boots and an apron and all the rest of it. And I did and they took them off me and they went to the WAAFs who did the cooking.
CJ: Sorry. Could you just explain the, why you were putting cigarette ash in your tea?
JD: Yeah. Well, that was to get off from, get the heart attack, the heart beating. It appears to be like a heart attack but of course it isn’t. To get me off the draft, you know. I didn’t want to cross a submarine. They’d had to, they used pre-war liners and they used to put the Italian and German prisoners right at the bottom. The aircrew on the top. Training air crew on the top and they’d lost one or two of those and they’d all gone down. So, naturally I wasn’t very keen. So that’s what it is.
CJ: So how did the training continue then after you’d finished carving up the meat?
JD: Well, I got that down to the hut and joined my unit. And they said they wanted volunteers for a new type of training. Air Ministry training type C. So, I and my best friend Ginger Brookes, a bright red-haired fellow, we went and volunteered together, and they put us on a train to Anstey, Northampton, and we were stuck in a hut there. The university one side and us the other side. And lower down there the three Free French Air Force pilots who had already trained as pilots, but they had to go for some training to learn English commands and things like that. I could speak French and I got on very well with them. Anyhow, we, we’d taken part our air bus err aircrew bus to a little short field by the side of a road near a farm and if you got through in four hours, went solo within four hours you were naturally a pilot, you know, you passed as pilot. And we only had one bloke who didn’t. He landed on top of another Tiger Moth and he was chucked out straight away [laughs]. Later I heard he was a Commissioner for Refugees and he was with the United Nations. He was a Danish bloke. And then we went up to Church Lawford, and when we arrived we could see these fifteen Harvards, you know, camouflaged and yellow underneath. And they gave us wonderful training up there. The first instructor I had was a chap called Duck. A very pale fellow. Unfortunately, every time that other people saw him in my aircraft they would go, ‘Quack. Quack. Quack. Quack’, and he applied for a transfer and we got another one. A chap who had been a Warrant Officer in the Battle of Britain, and he was really nice. Really good. And he, he one day there was clamp on and he said, ‘Jump in the back and I’ll fly from the front.’ And he took off and we climbed in the mist and tight turns, circled around up like that. He counted the numbers of seconds the runway was on went straight back down and lo and behold the runway was right in front of us. Came down in one piece. Fantastic. He was the best instructor I ever had. Warrant Officer. And then after that we got our wings. Air Marshal Inglis, and he said, as he pinned the wings on you he said, ‘Congratulations. You’ve saved us so much money. What do you want to apply to go on to later on? I said, ‘Well, I want to be an airline pilot after the war.’ So he said, ‘Alright. We’ll put you on bombers. There were two of us [unclear] and we passed out and I went to 21 OTU at Moreton in the Marsh which is along, it’s called the Fosse Way. Delfosse [laughs] we got to, they were using old Wellingtons that had been in the desert and if you landed heavily all the sand came up in your eyes [laughs] all the time. Well, one day one of these Wimpies it came in and I could, I could see the roads from Moreton in the Marsh to Chipping Campden, and they had a graveyard there, all the white crosses [unclear] time, and the engine coughed. And I got it down safely and I reported this to the engine bloke. And he said, ‘Impossible,’ he said, ‘I checked it personally.’ I said, ‘Well, it happened, I can assure you.’ And that afternoon we did ground training and another crew took over, and the crew who took over were a Cranwell trained bloke. And when they came back in the evening we could hear them going over and suddenly there was an enormous bang and crash and it burst in to flames at the back of Chipping Campden, and I thought, ‘my God, that’s a stroke of luck’. You know. Sheer luck again. And after that went on to the Lancaster training place near Rutland. You know, up on the hill there was a Conversion Unit. And I was on 619 Squadron. We were trained as a back-up to 617. And we did all the training with 617 including getting the leaves and branches in the air intakes, you know. Hitting the target of water over Derwent Water and climbing up quickly from the hills. And then they did their job, and we were very sad for them of course. They did the job even though they lost the, about twenty eight men in the process. Then they, we did the Eder Dam. Guy Gibson. He led them through this. There was a church on the hill and a very difficult approach. But the bloke who did it had to try thirteen times and he eventually hit the dam and broke it. But the trouble was the water flowed down a long, an enormous volume of water went down and there was a Russian prisoner of war camp there and they were all, ten thousand of them they couldn’t get out, they were drowned, just like that. What a waste of life. And we were very sad for them. Afterwards they, the London and the south coast were being bombarded by the V-1s and V-2 rockets and me and another chap who knew the French coast pretty well. We could speak French. We volunteered to go and see if we could destroy them. And we, the Resistance would send the coordinates and it might be in a farmyard building or if one place was in rogue village with canvas over the top. And we managed to knock out most of them. The other bloke he and I eventually got the whole lot knocked out. And then the Germans ended up on the coast in Holland, pushed further back by the Canadians and the Air Force, and they started bombarding the Antwerp docks. In the process they had these unstable rockets. Very short range. And they must have hit Antwerp itself and lots of blokes were killed in Antwerp. People anyway. Men, women and children. So that was inevitable of course. And then after that, after the war that’s when I went on Silver City’s.
CJ: So do you remember, just coming back to the wartime do you remember how many operations you flew?
JD: Oh, it must have been about twenty. Twenty five. Something like that. And —
CJ: And apart from the Eder Dam are there any of the operations that particularly stand out? Any difficult ones or —
JD: No. We were very lucky you know. We got, you could always see. There was a ramp for the V-1s. And you could see that because they had four round pitch with forty millimetre Oerlikon guns, but they didn’t open up until it was apparent that you had actually found it. And when you flew along the line there was a better chance of hitting if you fly up the line then across it. They found that when they got to the Falklands and that only got the one bomb on the runway. So, we knocked all those out. And after the war I went to Silver City Airways really.
CJ: So, could you tell us about Silver City? Where you were flying from and what the aircraft were?
JD: Yeah.
CJ: And where you were going?
JD: It was the Bristol freighters that they’d used in Australia to get cows frozen in the farms direct. Stuck in these freighters. Take them down to Sydney. Put them on the ships to bring to, feed the people in England, you know, during the war. And then the Silver City realised after the war there was a lot, a lot of money to be had flying these film stars and various famous people like Peter Townsend, Margaret’s boyfriend. I actually went around the corner and nearly knocked him over [laughs] And anyway in the back of the aircraft you know there were all these cigarettes, boxes full of cigarettes. It was the flight attendants’ duty to sell as many cigarettes as possible. And one day the flight attendant was crawling over these cars. There was a racing green Bentley and he looked down and he thought what I wouldn’t give for that racing green Bentley, and the seat next door had a cushion, a bit of white sticking out. He pulled it out. Hundreds of hundred pound banknotes. They were — a hundred pound banknotes were rare things in those days. And he set up a garage in, in — what’s the town now? Not [unclear] but the one next door. I can’t remember the name of it. The garage is still there. Absolutely amazing.
CJ: So, the aircraft were carrying passengers and cars.
JD: Oh yeah. Passengers and cars. And one of the tricks was as you — there were special crew who unloaded the cars. They’d unload them and would deliberately bang them so the exhaust dropped off. I used to go in a café there and I’d pick up two bottles of [unclear] cheap red wine, bring it back and eventually I built up a wonderful collection of wine at home.
Other: What about times, dad when you were in the RAF. You know, when you used to fly low with, to say hello to some of your girlfriends or — [pause] remember?
JD: Oh, yeah. We used to. When I was on the training with the Harvards we’d fly down the canals you know, before Wittering. And the land falls away. It’s full of canals. And we would fly low and chuck this, we’d come up a bank and the Land Girls there would chuck toilet paper at them. Just to let us know that we’d been there. They got a lot of free toilet paper those girls.
CJ: And on, sorry just coming back to the raids that you, where you were bombing the V-1 launch ramps.
JD: Yeah.
CJ: I take it this would be low level with just a small number of aircraft was it?
JD: Yeah. I think one aircraft at a time used to do that and if you spotted the glint of the thing you made sure that you climbed up. That’s when they opened up on you. But luckily we just got a few holes in it. And we saw the bombs actually explode all the way up the ramp to destroy it.
CJ: And was there ever any fighter activity around the ramps?
JD: No.
CJ: Or were they not expecting you because it was a single aircraft.
JD: No. They’d lost so many fighters by that time that they hadn’t got that many left. Mind you there’s a few very good examples of FW 190s and 190s restored. My son found them in a museum in Southern Germany. Masses of German aircraft in there. Completely restored.
CJ: Ok. So you were working with Silver City. So you were flying as a pilot then.
JD: I was a pilot.
CJ: Yeah.
JD: And the chap next door on one trip we had Carolyn was in a carry cot on my assistant’s knee. She was in a carry cot. A little tiny baby. And then that was because I’d flown for Silver City before and I had a complimentary free pass, you know, to do that.
CJ: And where were you flying from and to?
JD: Oh, Silver City’s were flying from Lydd. A metallised runway. And we used to do one, two trips to Le Touquet. The third trip was to Ostend err to Calais and then the fourth trip was to Ostend but we had to climb up because there was anti-aircraft. Belgian anti-aircraft gun training area. And you went right up and then you had to come right down, land at Ostend and many of the people in the cars they were warned not to drive on the left. But of course they forgot and they drove on the left. And the next time you come around you’d find dozens of cars wrecked completely. Head on collisions. Brought back again. Oh dear.
CJ: And so when, when did you leave Silver City?
JD: I left Silver City oh after about, they moved to, to Southend Airport with the larger DC4s that could, they could lift them up and put about twenty cars in. And that was when I left Silver City’s. I wasn’t — it was too far to drive.
Other: One very important thing. What about who did you marry?
JD: Oh, I married a girl in the Westminster place where all the film stars married. There’s a photograph of her. Me in a lovely suit. And —
Other: How did you meet her?
JD: She worked at my parents’ pet shop.
Other: In Folkestone.
JD: And I’d broken my —I was in the drawing office at De Havilland. We were designing the Comet. I was electrical port inspector where two parts were clashing together. And I was, I’d broken my arm and I was up in the, my attic room and this girl came up with a cup of tea, and I thought oh she’s a nice looking girl, you know. When it was healed I got my car out and we went all over the place in the car, and then we got married in this place where the film stars are. But her, her, my father wouldn’t come to it because he knew she was a bit of a flirty type. And the wedding reception was held in Castle Hill Avenue, paid for by the mother. And I had a big caravan then and I knew she loved cats and we used to, I drove her to the zoo at Bekesbourne and we looked at all these tigers and leopards and panthers and things like that. Great time we had, and —
Other: How long were you married for dad?
JD: Hmmn?
Other: How long were you married for?
JD: Leonie?
Other: To Leonie. Yeah.
JD: Well, we had two girls first and then she suddenly disappeared. Where she was. Where she went to. We found out later that she met an IRA man who knew she had money from her grandmother. Her grandmother was a wealthy woman, and presumably she’s still in — what’s the name of the town in Ireland? Main town in Ireland.
Other: Belfast.
JD: She’s in — hmmn?
Other: Belfast or Dublin.
JD: Dublin. That’s right. She’s either running a dress shop or she’s lying at the bottom of the River Liffey because they pinched all her money, that’s all they were after.
Other: You’ve got a son. So you had three children.
JD: Yeah. Later on.
Other: How old were they when she left?
JD: When she left you were, you were still very young. Still very young.
Other: David was three.
JD: Yeah.
Other: I was four and Pat was seven.
JD: Patricia was the oldest. You were second and David was very very young. I knew I had a house which was on where they had been the last V-2 to land in Folkestone had hit, and there was a school right across the road. So in the morning I gave them a good breakfast. Then went across to school. Had lunch at school. In the evening came back. Good supper. Bath and all the rest of it.
Other: So you brought up three kids by yourself.
JD: Oh yeah.
Other: That’s fine.
JD: Bathed them and then put them to bed. And repeated the process day after day.
CJ: And you said you’d been working as a draughtsman for De Havilland on the Comet. So what work were you doing after that that brought you to Folkestone?
JD: Well, when the Comets crashed it didn’t appear to be any good staying locally there, so I came back to Folkestone and settled down with my parents in a, in a second floor flat. You know the road that goes to the motorway now. That was a gravel road and then there was the golf course on the right, and we lived there. The chap who lived above us with his Scottish wife was an estate agent in Hythe. He died and I’d meet her you know, the Scottish lady, in the town. We were great friends. Had meals together and things like that. You know, took her out to lunch. There’s a model of the Lancasters on the window ledge there.
CJ: And after the war did you manage to keep in touch with any of your old crew members?
JD: Yeah. I was going, I went up to London for an interview for a job and on the way back had to wait in the train so I went in to the cafeteria. And I was sitting at, on my table and across the other side suddenly there’s Stan Lewis, my rear gunner, sitting there. And I’d saved his life in the, in the training over Bristol Channel. You know, they, we used to go over the Bristol Channel and wave the aircraft backward and forward and he always used to shoot the drogue down with depressing ease. And one day we were over the Bristol Channel and he didn’t reply, so I sent one of the other chaps back to see. He was blue in the face so I dived immediately straight down below ten thousand. Got some air in him and he told his wife, ‘That’s the man who saved my life. I wouldn’t be here now today if it hadn’t been for him.’ Great, great amusement.
CJ: So did you have crew reunions or squadron reunions?
JD: No. Never been. Never been to one. Never been to one.
CJ: And how do you feel about how Bomber Command were treated after the war?
JD: Well, there was a RAFA Association bloke in Deal and I went to see him. I said, ‘What would have happened if I had been killed during the war?’ He said, ‘Well, it’s just too bad. You wouldn’t have got anything. No pension. No nothing.’ That’s when I said, ‘Thank you very much,’ and left the RAFA and never went back. And then later on I drove buses for East Kent Road Car Company. You know, double deckers. All sorts of buses. Electric controlled drive single deckers.
Other: So he could look after the kids.
JD: Ones with [unclear] there from Scotland and had a great time and eventually ended up on National Express. Went to, used to take a trip to Catterick where the Americans used to come over to do the tour of Europe. And as they got out when I took them back they put the hat on the doorstep and they used to fill it up with dollars. And I got that three or four times. I had a hell of a lot of dollars then and converted them into English money of course. And that’s when Cazzie got me a flat because I was living in a motor caravan, but then I got glaucoma in this eye and I realised I couldn’t —
Other: The time he went around Europe.
JD: And I met a German lady doctor at a place in Spain, and she said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m going to Morocco.’ And she said, ‘Oh I’d love to go there.’ And she had a little terrier dog. When we got to [pause] I forget where it was. The town where you booked the tickets for the trip over to Morocco. She went in front of me.
Other: In Spain.
JD: When I drove in there was a blonde girl talking to her, and I said, ‘Who was that?’ And she said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘She said she and her husband had all their money stolen. Have you got some money to give us?’ I said, ‘You didn’t let her look in her handbag did you?’, because this husband and wife are doing that trick all over Germany and Spain.’ And she said, ‘Yes. She saw right into my purse.’ You know. So I said, ‘My God.’ Anyway, we went to look for a place to park up for the night where the dog could walk on the beach, and as we walked on the beach I kept looking back to make sure the caravan was there and when we got back I got in my caravan and sure enough there must have been somebody in this row of houses had seen it and they got into her caravan somehow and they pinched all our money, keys, house number everything. Passport, the lot. I said, ‘Well, I’ve got my Visa card and I’ll escort you all the way back to Perpignan in France’, and when we got there she got her money back but she said, ‘You can’t go back to Spain now. It’s the water. Wet season. All the rivers will be flooded.’ She said, ‘Lake Constance and Bodensee is just as nice. Come back home with me.’ So I went back and lived in this enormous house she had and I had my set of rooms one side and she had her set the other side, and funnily enough my oldest daughter is a water diviner and she found that the dividing line between the rooms was the water, water running underneath the house. Quite a big surprise. Anyway —
CJ: You had some adventures since the war.
JD: Oh yeah. We went all over Europe.
Other: [unclear] split up with a split screen for your camper van.
JD: Because my son had met this Turkish girl at the English School of Languages in Kosovo I believe, or something and he’d fallen in love with her. [unclear] her name was. She was a nice looking girl. Brought her up to me. They got married but the father wouldn’t come over because he’d trained at Heidelberg in Germany and he didn’t feel happy in England. And the mother paid for the reception. Lovely reception.
Other: How long were you travelling for around Europe?
JD: Oh, quite a few years.
Other: How long do you think? Twenty years?
JD: No. No. No.
Other: Fifteen? Ten years?
JD: Five years or so. Went everywhere. All over Spain. Portugal. All the way down to Hungary when the trouble at Sarajevo was on, and great fun.
Other: You’ve always been an adventurer.
JD: But the mother loved cats, so I took her once to the zoo at Bekesbourne and we saw the tigers and the black panthers and the other cats, and had a great time. She was the sort of woman I’d have married myself if she wasn’t already married.
Other: She was something.
JD: Great fun.
CJ: Well, thanks very much for talking to us today. That was great.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Delfosse
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AVanDammeJEC170727, PDelfosseJEC1701
Format
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00:37:09 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
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Jack was born in London and went to Highgate School where he learnt navigation, Morse code and marching. On leaving he became a medical student but left half way through the course. He then joined the Royal Air Force and initially trained on Harvards in Northampton. After gaining his pilot qualification, he flew Wellingtons before joining 619 Squadron with Lancaster bombers. Jack had carried out about 20 to 25 operations, including an attack bombing V-1 launch ramps. After the war Jack went to Silver City working as a pilot for a while. He moved to Folkestone and met his wife at his parents’ shop, they eventually married and had three children. She left Jack when the children were still young and he brought them up.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Northampton
England--Northamptonshire
England--Kent
England--Folkestone
United States
Belgium
Contributor
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Julie Williams
21 OTU
619 Squadron
bombing
crash
Harvard
Lancaster
love and romance
Operational Training Unit
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1188/11761/PWayeJ.2.jpg
ecef38fda97f853a72c42f0b128d0a19
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1188/11761/AWayeJH171009.2.mp3
93369e73007e8bd2d54ac2dde5a14d7f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Waye, John Harry
J H Waye
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Waye (b.1923, 1803659 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunner in the Far East.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Waye, JH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing John Waye today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at John’s home in West Malling, Kent, and it is Monday 9th of October 2017. Thank you, John for agreeing to talk to me today. So, perhaps we could start at the beginning and could you tell us, please, where and when you were born and what your family background was?
JW: Well, I was born [pause] at Wickham as far as I, on my birth certificate that’s it. Wickham Place, which is nearby Borough High Street. And the whole area was erased and new houses put up in that place. And most of my knowledge stems from there ‘til I was, most of my knowledge stems from living in Mermaid Court. That’s a courtway between London Bridge and the Blue Eyed Maid which you’ll find in Dickens’ book. And from there well I went to Snowsfield School, the local school, until I was ten. Now, you want me to, do you want to go through what whilst I was there? That period?
CJ: Well, perhaps you could tell us a bit about what you did. Did you have any hobbies? What jobs mum and dad had?
JW: Well, as far as I can remember I used to have to toddle around to the shop to get a loaf of bread. I know that because I used to eat the crust on the way back home. And in those days each shop had its own particular business i.e. if you went to a shop you could only buy a dairy, dairy products. The dry greengrocer, not the greengrocer, the dry grocer he only sold you, sold tins. But he did sell bread about the thickness of your little, of your forefinger. And there was a little ridge there which probably denoted where it came from, you see. There were a few pubs around there. I know two shut down.
CJ: Did you have a job before you joined up?
JW: Well, oh yes, but prior to [pause] I’m going through the early stages.
CJ: Right.
JW: And my mother used to write out the paper what she wanted. A penny packet of tea or a pound of, a pound of sugar. We used to get butter. But that was during the Depression. But fortunately, my father worked on the river, and he would do a little bit of work here and there according to how much came up on the ships. If it came up light well he only had a couple of hours work. If it came up say in the summertime or the springtime they’d load up with tomatoes. Dutch tomatoes. See that goes back to economics and tax. Prior to that, stuff would come in from Spain or Canaries. Tomatoes. But then on a certain date tax, fourpence tax as far as I know went on to the cost of those tomatoes and the produce, put it that way. That went on and I used to run around at the end of the street. The street was only two hundred yards long. There was two bookmakers and my father used to like a bet. And he’d look, he’d come out of work at 12 o’clock because his working day was eight ‘til five on the docks. He was slightly later than that on other jobs. Like longer hours. And he’d write out a bet and I’d take it around to the betting shops one way or the other. If there was any money to come he’d show me how to work out a bet and I worked out there three cross doubles or trebles. Anything like that. Knowing full well that when I went around to the bookmaker and the bet came to, say two and fourpence ha’penny he would keep that ha’penny which was the usual practice of business. He wouldn’t give it to him. Give it to me. So, when I got dad I’d say to him, ‘I’m a bit short here.’ He’d look at me. He did no more. He put his hand in his pocket and gave me a ha’penny because betting was illegal before the war, you see. That’s why we had street pockets. Those, those people who could afford big money they dealt with turf accountants, you see. That’s the difference like between tuppence halfpenny and a few quid or something. So, that’s how I got on. Well, when I was at school when it comes to arithmetic and I get this, I only had a sheet of paper because you’d write down and they’re putting the thing on the board. There was a sum on the board. You had to work it out. Well, I could work it out and it was dead easy. I was doing it every day on the bet or something like that. And I’d be sitting there sort of say scratching myself. The teacher sent me out to make the tea. Or if I, if I happened to be in the playground or something they’d put it out and say, ‘Oi.’ You had to go upstairs, they’d say, ‘Go over there and get some biscuits,’ or something like that, over at the shop. So, I made sure I didn’t go, didn’t get to school too often early. Like lunch hour. Because you’d get, took an hour and three quarters for lunch. But most, most of the knowledge I have is up until 1933 because when I was ten I went into Hither Green Hospital with diphtheria. I had a sore throat one morning or one night or something like that. And I, the next morning I told them I’d got a sore throat. My dad whipped me round to Guy’s because Guy’s, Guy’s is just over the road from us, and he probably went to work or something like. He came back at mid-day, had a chat and I was whipped out the hospital straight away. And I finished up on my back in Hither Green for about six weeks. Couldn’t blooming move. You can’t move. All you can do is your eyes moving. Like that. You’re dead stiff on your back. And each morning at 7 o’clock the cleaner lady would come along. Oh, before that, at half past five you’d hear the night nurse on. Only one nurse on a ward. And she would, would be sitting there in case anybody woke up or was disturbed or something. Then at half past five the cups would rattle, and you’d hear the cups rattling and you’d know tea was coming around. So you’d get a beaker or something like that. And then at 7 o’clock the lady came in for cleaning the, polishing and cleaning the — and she opened the door and said, ‘Hello,’ or ‘good morning,’ or something, and you were pleased as punch to hear something different. You know, sort of I’m still alive at any rate. (Laughs). Yeah. And then when I got up from there I started, well I tried to race about. A bit stiff but I was all racing up and down as soon as I could. Get down in the yard there. Only between these two, like the two walls like. Racing back and forth. But in the meantime, going back, I’d come home. I’d come home from school and my mother would say to me, ‘Here take the bowl.’ We had a big enamel washing up bowl with a handle either side. The mission was to come over from Billingsgate Market. Well, that was only over the bridge to where we were living. Just below, near Borough Market. Go over there and they would, and they would have a number of like silver metal, metal dustbins. Not aluminum but steel but highly polished. Obviously for food. And in those days, there’d be the samples of different things depending which, who was the supplier. And we’d go over there and might get salmon or fish or something and come back with a big bowl or it might be tinned fruit. Anything that come in tins which they’d sampled or that particular area in it would come. And there is a book in the library, in the Southwark Library in the Borough High Street written by a young woman who lived opposite me. I lived in number 14 Mermaid Court. I can’t remember her name. But I know her name. Single name was Winnup. But I don’t know the married name. She’s probably down as her married name. But they got it there because when I asked some years back any information, the chap who was in charge of the library, he took out a book and put the folder right in. Put the pages in the book on the machines. And of course some of edges when it’s reproduced is not up to scratch. So, a little while, a couple of years later I happened to go up to Guy’s for my annual check and I popped in there. And somebody had taken all the pages apart carefully and put them in the right way. As you would making a new page, this booklet. But I’ve been up since. That chap has gone, and the newcomers are a couple of women. They don’t seem to know anything about the paper. The book. It’s in a book form but I don’t know who the author is or the chap who copied it. All I know is the person’s name is Winnup. The woman who wrote it.
CJ: So, John you were saying how you’d been in hospital for diphtheria and then you were cured.
JW: Yes. Yes.
CJ: And came out of hospital.
JW: Yes. At ten I was in, in hospital. So, then I was, I’d got, I was, I got well. Because whilst I was up each time I asked the nurse, ‘When can I go out?’ Because I felt I was being detained and I was alright. Seemingly. But she said, ‘No. You’re still not pro — ’ [pause] See, I can’t. I know what, I can’t find the words.
CJ: So, you still weren’t clear of the disease.
JW: Yeah. That’s the long phrase.
CJ: Yeah. Right. Ok.
JW: But there’s one word which in pro, not prominent. Something like that. I forget. And eventually I went out. And my dad came in. He was in black. All in black. But I thought, I didn’t take much notice of it since it’s cold. So, we gets down to London Bridge Station. We probably caught the train from Hither Green down to London Bridge Station. Walked out. We’re not walking down to Borough. Borough High Street where we lived. We’re going around to my grandma’s house. So, we were walking down the street and my aunt was walking on the other side of the street coming towards us. And when she got almost opposite she walked over to me. Took her purse out. Took her purse out and giv e me sixpence. Cor blimey. Sixpence was a heck of a lot of money. Thanks very much. Been in hospital. So, I gets around, gets around home and there’s, they lived just off Bermondsey Street, my grandma, grandpa. Then they told me my mum was dead. So, my life just, I didn’t know what day, what they meant. So, I had no reason. I couldn’t reason. What? She’s gone? She’s not here. So, with that went on and then of course I realised that I was, my mother wasn’t coming back because I had to pack in with my family and my grandma. So, that was that. But I couldn’t understand. I had two cousins. They were a bit older than me and they never seemed to play. I always used to be out on my tod in the street. If I went out to have a game there were always kids all running around playing football together. But I just couldn’t understand it. Whether they were told not to get too close to me or something I don’t know. You see in those days it was prevalent. Unsurprising, the number of people in the present day who speak out and say they had diphtheria. Because down where I lived the only flowers we saw were flowers on coffins. That’s something. Now, you go along you see shops in every High Street or something selling flowers aren’t they? That’s, that’s tough that was but anyway that went on like that and I didn’t, as I said when I was at school I, I was quite good at arithmetic and that type of work. Not, not so much English because they didn’t put too much into English. I think because we were close to the City and it was all quick-thinking money, the Stock Exchange type, I don’t know. Anyway, I tried to get in the Stock Exchange but I couldn’t get in when I left school at fourteen.
CJ: So, what did you do after leaving school?
JW: Oh, I, I got a job as, in the in the clothing trade, and we, we were making up stuff. I was making collars and nothing in particular…… and carried on like that, and after, after a couple of years I asked for a rise. Oh, my dad was out of work because — going back, I was working then when the war broke out. And the governor told us not to come in for a fortnight because he didn’t know what was going on. No work coming in. And went back to work, only for a while then they switched over onto war work. No extra money or anything like that and I asked for some. I asked for a rise and the governor was willing to give it to me but the paymaster wasn’t. So, I didn’t get any extra money. I was getting older. I packed up because my, my dad wasn’t doing too much work. Simply the traffic wasn’t coming up the river. He was a stevedore. So, and as he was, as he wasn’t he was able to work like odds and ends. A few hours or a day to cut a corner, whether the ships came up light or laden. So, we was either doing well or we wasn’t doing well. And that’s how, that’s how these things went. And he happened to be out of work at this particular time so I packed up. They didn’t give me a rise. Because the point is during the Depression whoever was working, they had to stay in work to support the rest of their families you see. And you can’t get cabbages growing in the streets in London. You can get them down here. You can, you can see them in the hedgerows or something. Get something to eat can’t you? But not in London. So, there wasn’t any extra food forthcoming that way. But I used to go to the market over, across the road in the Borough Market. And I used to take a sack, a small sack with me to school you see and at night when we finished I would race up over to market there and see if there was any carts left behind. Because if, say there used to be a sack or something burst open, there’s odd potatoes or a cabbage or something fell out or onto the cart or something they just used to kick it out off the cart because they can’t take them or they’d get pinched for stealing. You see. And if I, if I happened to touch lucky any particular day I got a good bag full of vegetables, I’d take them home and take them around to — oh that’s going back a bit farther really, take them all home to my mum. She’d take out what we needed and, ‘Take them around to grandma.’ So, I’d take them round to grandma and get a penny. Things were tough. It wasn’t for the laziness of the people. Everybody was out of work. Whether you were say a labourer or that type or whether you were an educated chap. There was no work for anybody.
CJ: So, were you still working up to when you volunteered to join up?
JW: Oh, yes. I was. I was working any odd job I could get hold of a few bob. It was a case of surviving in that respect. And as there weren’t much work in certain lines of business, because everything was geared to war work, it was like, tough. And the wages were still kept bottom because the production workers keep a lot of people going on top. Once the production worker goes their jobs go.
CJ: So, could you, could you tell us a bit about joining up, please, and how you decided on going for the RAF?
JW: Well, I was, I was interested in the, in aeroplanes and I went to the ATC. Joined up the ATC. So, I was ready to go in the RAF as soon as I was eighteen which I did do. So, I signed on straight away at eighteen. And during that short period we used to do a bit of training and like theory. See I can always remember how to fire an engine. You see you can’t go one two three four because of the alternate. Things like that you see. Little bits. Only little parts of aircraft and so on. In the end I went into the RAF. I went to [pause] I went to St Johns Wood, off Grosvenor Park, Val, begins with V the house I was in. It was in a little cul de sac with about three or four houses osn but it was, it was a modern, a modern place. A nice big bathroom. And there was only about eight or ten of us in a room. But it shows you how big the room was. All the beds were packed together like that. But the main thing was when you looked at the bathroom and the surroundings you could see how well off the occupants were in the past. Anyway, to get back onto what I was saying.
CJ: So, was this for initial training that you were in St Johns Wood?
JW: Ah, yes. Initial training. Yes. I, as I joined up and it was just you were drilled. Drilling and general get you in trim like. But after say 5 o’clock you had been to tea you could, you were free to go till 23.59, not twelve hundred hours, 23.59. So, we used to go swimming over the Seymour Road Baths. That’s only, that’s just behind Oxford Circus. And we marched, marched down there. I don’t know. I forget how many. Probably maybe about thirty or so. Something like that. We’d do that. We’d go, we’d go to Lord’s for drill. Lord’s Cricket Club. Up and down the slope like there. Marching up and down and doing all the drills and getting ready. Oh, I got fitted out. Fitted out but they didn’t have enough clothing there for the newcomers. So, all I got was a pair of boots, a black tie and I think there was a forage cap. So, of course I mean I had to wear that outfit whilst I was in the, in the RAF at the time. If I’d have changed into, into Civvy Street I would have been contravening the rules wouldn’t I? So, I goes home like that. Get on a bus and I just went home each night. Well, one day I gets on the bus to come back to the unit. There’s a chap sitting in front of me. He turned around, he says, ‘You’re improperly dressed.’ Who the blooming hell is that? He was a corporal. And I said, ‘I’ve just joined up and this is the uniform I got.’ Now, when I told him where I was going he was probably going to the same place. And it transpired that he was a publican in a pub about three hundred yards away from where I lived. On the old area where I used to live. Somewhere. I never saw any more of him and I had no, no more than that. One day I was on, I went, being home or I’d finished. Finished for the day and they had Nat Gonella playing some concert in aid of the Royal Air Force. So, I thought well I might just as well go there and pay the, contribute to the Air Force funds. So, I went there and I came back. 12 o’clock. ‘You’re late on parade, airman.’ It was just 12 o’clock. ‘You’re on a charge.’ ‘What for?’ You’re supposed to be in 12 o’clock. ‘You’re supposed to be here at 11.59.’ ‘Well,’ that’s 12 o’clock.’ ‘11.59 Air Force.’ So, a few minutes was three days.
CJ: So, where did you go after you’d —
JW: And what — go on.
CJ: After your initial training.
JW: Oh [pause] Oh, they shipped me down to Newquay. School like. To continue through you see. Well, I walked to work through there. And when they give you these papers to sign and I couldn’t understand some of the mathematics. How, how, how could A+B - equal that? A’s got nothing to do with figures. So I was stumped. Anyway, I failed that there. Then from there they sent me to Brighton. They got the same type of teacher on the board. On the book. A = Y Z and all that paraphernalia at the time mind you. I didn’t, couldn’t understand them. They didn’t come around to me and say here’s the, there’s a right-angle triangle. That’s the, that’s the adjacent, that’s the opposite and that’s the hypoteneuse. And if you use this one it’s not the same as that one. Each, each side indicates a certain type of system. We can come back to that after. I was beat again simply because they used, they used the letters A B C in algebra rather than show you how the job’s done. This is all what I’m recalling in my head and reasoning which is true. When you get older and you work that out. So, I went up to Bridlington. Then did the training up in Bridlington. Then I was shipped off to the Isle of Man.
CJ: I think you said that before the interview that Bridlington was a gunnery school. So, you’d been selected as an air gunner by then had you?
JW: I expect so. Because I had no say. You don’t have any say in the, in the services. You were a number [background interference] [unclear]
CJ: You had no choice.
JW: Had no choice. No.
[background interference] [unclear]
JW: You see. Anyhow, I went over to the Isle of Man. Did my gunnery course there and came back. Came back. I went on leave. And after the course I did about a fortnight, about a fortnight’s leave I think we got. And I got my marching orders to go to Harwell for operational training. So, I went on to Harwell. Did the operational training there and then that’s when they said, well I’ve got my log book. Told me what to do. Not to put any names down. They knew where I was going shall we say. I had no idea where I was going. So, I just had my log and from there I went — trip, trip, trip. Hurn. Hurn. Then from there to Porth, Cornwall. Porth to Gibraltar. Gibraltar to Fez in Morocco. Fez to Tripoli in Tripolitania then to, B26 Cairo. That was the aerodrome in the desert by the Sphinx. And that was that. I remember the number. It’s 26 Kilo it was.
CJ: So, were you flying out in the aircraft that you were going to be flying operationally?
JW: No. No. We went out as passengers. Myself and Nick Johns who was a pilot. We scheduled to go east on any command shall we say. We didn’t go by ship or anything like that. They probably wanted aircrew probably specifically because they’d got the B24s coming into operation. And as I said we went out there. The crew who flew us out they stayed on in the new Wimpy 10s. They were taking a new Wimpy out to replace the old 3s.
CJ: Wimpys are Wellingtons.
JW: Wellingtons.
CJ: Yes.
JW: The crew, they stayed on. They stayed on and they stayed on into 355 Squadron as well, and we went out as their passengers. Then we went to Cairo. Stayed there for a, for a week or two. Oh, about a month, I think. Then got shipped over to Tel Aviv. The old Lod. The old biblical name of Lod. I remember there we were standing there waiting. Waiting. There was supposed to be a bus or coach coming along. Don’t know how long we were going to remain on the station. Just, there was about half a dozen other chaps there, standing there. And the railway track passed the gate, the entrance to the aerodrome at the time. So, I stand there and the road comes parallel with the railway track and then goes diagonally straight across it. So, as this comes along I jumped out of the little crowd there, grabbed the tailboard of the truck as it went past and it yanked me along. Managed to climb up. It was very difficult. Tapped on the cab. The chappie looked up. You could see the fear in his face almost. He slowed down and I got in the cab. Apparently the Arabs at that time were having a go at the Jewish immigrants and there was turmoil out there you see. Apart from our war. I didn’t know that. So, we went there. Went to Tel Aviv. I always remember Tel Aviv. These low buildings. Whitewashed. Just the odd stone building which was the proper prefect’s place or offices or something, and a stony beach. Yeah. Stones like that which you get down the Mediterranean. You see the pictures now you might as well be looking at New York with all the skyscrapers there now and the cars flying along. Then, from there where did I go? From there to — is it [pause] it’s in the Iraq neck — what’s the capital?
CJ: Baghdad.
JW: Baghdad. Well, the RAF had a station there on the lake. I think it’s about a hundred yards from Baghdad. Before the aircraft were going they had flying boats doing the run across to Australia. So those water points, those flying boats could get down you see. That was before the aeroplane was strong enough to do the distance. What was the name of that?
CJ: Baghdad.
JW: No. No. The lake.
CJ: I don’t know.
JW: Habbaniyah.
CJ: Ok.
JW: Habbaniyah. That’s it. Habbaniyah. Habbaniyah. We stayed there for a couple of days or so. Then we got moving again on to Sharjah. That’s on the Gulf. There’s a RAF station. Habbaniyah, Shaibah which is in, which is Qatar. And then from there, from Qatar we went to Bahrain. They used to call them Trucial States, there were about five little States along the coast there you see up to the Horn. And we had stayed. We had bases there. Well, well after thoughts and knowledge Winston Churchill bought into that oil at Qatar in 1911. So you see where we got our fingers in the pie there. He was smart enough to know about the oil. But whilst I was at, what did I call that ‘rain? Bahrain is it?
CJ: Bahrain.
JW: Bahrain. In the souk. There was Americans. Oil. Then they were prospecting for oil around the area at that time. We used to hang an earthenware chatti up on the door in the sunshine to cool the water. It was, you could barely move, you know. It was an effort to move because of the moisture. What do they call it?
CJ: Humidity.
JW: Humidity in the air. Terrible it was there. Luckily we were away after a few days from there.
CJ: So, where did you get moved on to next?
JW: Karachi. From there we went straight over the bay of [pause] it was the northern part of —
CJ: Bengal.
JW: Bengal into Karachi. Stayed there probably about, stayed there about a month or more because the monsoon was on. Cor, you could see the train lines were up there like a boned fish. Sticking up out the ground they were. Water everywhere. Flooded. Terrible that. Eventually we got to Salbani. Into Calcutta. Then out again to Salbani.
CJ: Salbani was the RAF base.
JW: And that was, as I say the permanent operating base.
CJ: And were you the, so you were in 355 Squadron there. Were you the only squadron there?
JW: Well, when I was there the remnants of 159, 159 had moved from Salbani to Digri which was about twenty odd miles along the railway. There was no road. Very little roadways out in the area because they get washed away with the monsoons and so on. So, most of the aerodromes were on a railway track. And they were at Digri, which was about twenty or thirty miles farther on from where I am. Where we were at Salbani. They were operating from there, bombing whilst we were being trained by the remnants. Or shall we say a working party of 159. Because 123 chaps who were training us were ex, well when I say ex they were 159 people. And then we came into force as 355. And whilst we were training it was only 355. And then as the crowds came in 156 were training but we were operational then. And then that was Royal Air Force India. We came under India Command. On the New Year they changed it to South East and Asia Command with Lord Mountbatten as the CO. And I’d finished my time on there and all the, most of the chaps who did their flying there seemed to be moved off because some went down to Kolar. Oh, first off all the Aussies were being shipped back, back to Australia. And I was in the crew like an Aussie crew. Half Aussie in ours. Captain, he was Aussie, navigator was Aussie. Very very good. Most of the navigators were ex-schoolteachers. They came from Sydney. Mainly Sydney and the other southern Australia. South Australia. The whole lot. They’d come a roundabout way through Nassau when they did their training and then went on to meet us in Burma and that’s where we come together. Oh, and incidentally they were shipping them home. Time expired, and they shipped off at what, about three crews to my knowledge were shipped out to other units. Well, I went from there to Jessore. That’s it. I went to Jessore. Our crew, or more like the remnants of the crew, went with some others on air sea rescue to 91, I think it was, squadron.
CJ: Can I just come back to Salbani? So when? When was this roughly when you arrived there for your training after this long trip?
JW: Well, it was maybe about August or September. I don’t know. It was —
CJ: Of which year?
JW: ’43.
CJ: ’43. Ok. So, you were, before the air sea rescue you were flying bombing operations after your training from Salbani.
JW: From, from Salbani we, we were trained on four-engine bombers with the remnants of 159 Squadron. When that was done we still remained on the aerodrome as 355 Squadron, and 355 stayed on after I’d gone for a year or two to my knowledge. And when they found that we were time expired after six months trips or learned the whole kaboosh seemed to be shut down. As I said some went down to Kolar on, which was down in South Central India. It’s a rich town. I can’t think of it off hand. Some went there and they were obviously training new recruits because I read after, in say in in the books that these people were coming from Kolar to South East Asia in 1945. So, the remnants of our squadron were down there training them. And we were shipped out onto, I think it was 291 Air Sea Rescue at Jessore. Then we went up to [unclear] I think it was. We went to another squadron and that’s where I got my, all of us got our pass home.
CJ: So, when you were with 355 Squadron at these different bases you were flying bomber, bombing operations then were you?
JW: Well, at that time if you put your fingers out like that across Burma that’s how the mountains were. Fourteen thousand feet and upwards. Very very steep. Like that you see. As if something like a concertina had been pushed together and they gradually get narrow. Well, that’s Burma and they work from the Irrawaddy River towards the coast. And there’s only maybe two or three passes whereby you could come through. Otherwise you’ve got to climb over fourteen thou. Well, what had happened, we probably controlled those passes but the Japs came over the top. They were, they came through the jungle. Hacked their way through the jungle. And that grass is as thick as that. It’s called grass but you needed a mach, we carried a machete to cut our way through. But there was the coast road. A road came up from Rangoon up the coast, you see. And as they were getting quite close to Imphal and I can’t think of the name [pause] the British were holding them back. The Japs were pushing and pushing. And it was a seesaw seesaw so we were coming over and coming down and bombing the positions of the Japanese if they were there. Sometimes we’d get up to the runway and they cancelled because the British had pushed the Japanese back down the line and that position we were due to bomb was British held. My mate now he complains that we bombed his brother-in-law. His brother-in-law tells them that the blasted Englishmen were bombing us. You see. See that was going. Well that’s all we were doing, and then gradually in the meantime we’d go over to Mandalay or Pegu or some of the railway junctions. Nong Pla Duk, that was out near Bangkok, that one on the Siam Railway. And we’d be doing all those trips and that was our, my term back on the station.
CJ: So, which aircraft were you flying then?
JW: I flew. I was flying mid-upper all the way.
CJ: The aircraft. I think you said they were Liberators. B24. Is that correct?
JW: Oh yes. We weren’t flying. That’s why we went out there. To fly on it. To fly on the B24s.
CJ: So what were the crew positions on the B24s?
JW: Well, when we were flying we flew, we were still flying, taking out the old Mark 3s with the four machine guns in the back and a mid-upper turret. That was the aircraft. And then after about six months in come Mark 6s. Well, they had a front turret on. Or they might have been an earlier type. I don’t know. They had a front turret on and a rear turret. In fact I don’t think I ever flew with a chap in the front. I can’t remember anybody flying in it. Then we had 6s come in which had a ball turret. And I flew in that once. That was enough for me. I didn’t want to know about flying.
CJ: So, the other crew positions. You had a pilot. Co-pilot.
JW: No. No.
CJ: Flight engineer.
JW: There was a rear gunner, myself, wireless operator, flight engineer, navigator and a pilot. Didn’t have a second pilot. We had just a seven man crew.
CJ: You were mid-upper, you said.
JW: I was mid-upper. Yeah. But as it transpired later on they put other, as I say, ball turret gunner. A front gunner in. Then they put side gunners in from what I gather. From what I’ve read in a book. But that’s in 1945. Well, I’m home here.
CJ: So how many of these bombing operations did you do then against the Japanese positions?
JW: I don’t know, honestly. It never, it never bothered me. All I knew I was alive. So, I didn’t care where. I wasn’t in England. Would I like to get home? I was out there, so it didn’t make much difference how many trips. But I was tour, tour expired and they probably take in the number of trips plus the distance you had to fly on some trips. So say you do twelve, fourteen hour trips, you’ve got to keep your eyes open all the time to see, and you’re on, as I say you’re on your nerves with anytime someone could take a pot at you.
CJ: So did, was there much opposition on these raids from fighters or anti-aircraft fire?
JW: Not, not the, not on my particular trips, fortunately. It was other people who had the attacking by the aircraft. Now, most of ours was ack ack. We got caught in, over Rangoon. And oh, Joe [pause] Murdoch was second in command of the unit and he took over from Ercolani when he, not Ercolani, Dodson when he moved out. That’s right. And he took over the crew. And [pause] what were we talking about? Oh —
CJ: You were saying that when you’d been tour expired that they took into account the number of trips but also —
JW: Oh yeah. That’s it.
CJ: How long those trips had been.
JW: That’s right. And I suppose they just wanted the old, the old crews out and then the new lot were coming in. I’d read that they were already training. The Canadians already had a place out in Canada where they trained them on B24s, so there was no need for them to be trained up from two-engine to four-engine job because they were already experienced on it. Any rate, we we was over Rangoon and got caught in, the searchlight caught us, and it caught all the searchlights which were waving about. The whole lot. You couldn’t see a thing. You see that. See that edge. That’s all you could see. You can’t see the pictures on the wall. You can’t see yourself or anything. All you could see was a hairline of the outline of whatever the object was. The gun was just the shape of a hairline shape. A box. You couldn’t see what was inside that. It never denoted the frame or any bullet marks or anything on it.
CJ: So, when you were coned by the searchlights then they started shooting at you.
JW: Oh, they started shooting. We come straight down like nobody’s business. We got out of trouble, fortunately, but Joe was one of those chaps who wanted to be first home. And in the mean, in the meantime, I was sent to Bhopal on a course in central India. So I know the chap named Murphy. He was a rear gunner but he took over my place for the trip. And Joe, they come home and Joe ran out of gas over the Sundarbans. The Sundarbans are the mouths of the Brahmaputra River. Massive river that is. And it’s all like fingers of water going out. Some are deep and some are shallow. Well, he came down there and they all got out, but he went in with the aircraft and he got shot through the Perspex and it scalped him and, what I heard, that he was the first bloke who had penicillin in India. The first man to get it. I don’t, we don’t hear much of what goes on. Not much information what happened to him, but all those little things crop up. They’re not in a sequence to say it. Just something that reminds you during the conversation and you have to keep backtracking.
CJ: So, then, then you said you’d been sent on to another squadron for air sea rescue. This was still before the end of the war, was it?
JW: Oh yes. I’m still, I’m still in SEAC. I’m in SEAC now. And they trained, they seemed to clear the squadron out of the old hands. In the meantime, new crews had been coming in and a I suppose they were trained up, and it seemed to me that about a half a dozen crews had been shipped out. As I said some went to Kolar. We went, two crews went down to Jessore and another crew went up to Shillong on different units. But it was whilst we were in the, whilst we were in those squadrons, we all got notification that we were on a boat being shipped home from Bombay. But from the time we got notification till the actual move was a couple of months. As if someone got on the phone and said, ‘Five crews. Send them over. We’re sending them over to England.’ And when word goes around you expect you’re on your way. But no, it took a long time for papers to come through. Then we were at Bombay about three months waiting for a ship. Just hanging around. There’s no, no drills or anything. It was just a place to sleep. Somewhere to eat. Or if you’ve got the money and can afford the fare up to Bombay. Don’t forget the money was, was a pittance. God, it was terrible. And the army controls India at the time, and their monetary system was so poor they must have been about two hundred years back. You got, you want a week’s, a week’s wages to buy a cup of tea out there.
CJ: So, eventually a ship arrived to bring you back to England.
JW: Yeah. It was, it was a pleasure to come back on that ship. It was nice and sunny. See the flying fish coming along. And see that blue sheet? That was how the water was. Nice.
CJ: And did you know when you were on the ship what you were supposed to be doing when you got back to England?
JW: No. You’re just going back to England. You’re in the Army, in the Navy or the Air Force you was a number. Whatever it was. And you were being shipped from one place to another place.
CJ: So this was — when was this? It was still before the end of the war. Yeah.
JW: No. I was [pause] we were laying off. We came through the Suez and we were lying off Gibraltar. And I woke up this particular morning, looked out and saw all these ships. All these American ships out there. I said, ‘Gawd crikey.’ They must have sent them a convoy down towards the Mediterranean, right up to Gibraltar then come up that way to England rather than come in the northern. But it wasn’t until after a couple of days that they got the information that President Roosevelt had died. So I’m not sure what date it was. About 1944 I should think. But I do know where I was when President Roosevelt died. I was, I was just coming up the Bay of Biscay somewhere out of Gibraltar.
CJ: And then what happened to you when you got back to England?
JW: Well, we laid off. We came into Glasgow. Glasgow. And Burn, something Burn. The first bridge up in Glasgow was as far as the ship could go. Because you could stand on the ship and there was the bridge maybe hundred, two hundred yards away. It’s the centre of Glasgow. So we waited there and we were there a day or a bit more than a day. Then come late evening eventually we were told a train pulled in alongside the dock. We just walked down the gangplank and got the train. It was during the night. We were going through to Wirral. West Kirby. That’s in the Wirral. We gets there. We gets there at night time. No idea of the time. Didn’t have watches in those days. We were given, we were given, given something to eat, a meal, and packed off. Had some equipment and we went to bed. We got up the next morning. On parade. They took us up to, across to Liverpool. Jumped on wherever you were going. I, myself and the other chaps going to London or south got on the London train and that was that.
CJ: So, that was you being demobbed was it?
JW: No. No. No. This was 1944.
CJ: Right. So you were still in the RAF.
CW: Still in the RAF. Yeah.
CJ: So you were put on a train. You didn’t know where you were going.
JW: No. Not yet. Oh, we had a pass when we left the Wirral. They’d given us a fourteen-day pass. Call it leave, you see. Of course we went down there and I got a letter to report to — Harwell, was it. No. No. Somehow or other I was —I had to go up to (Shrivenall?). Up north of Shropshire. A squadron there. It was Rednal or Ridnal or something like that. An aerodrome, yeah. A nice wooded place it was, and I was put on flying control. So, I was up there for a couple of months and then the squadron was moved out from there to Wiltshire. Near Trowbridge. The aerodrome was near Keevil. Keevil. That’s Trowbridge. We was there a few months. Myself and another chap, Titch, and we were shipped [pause] shipped up to Newcastle. Now, what was that aerodrome there? It was north of Newcastle. Acklington. Acklington. That was the station there.
CJ: And what were you doing there? Was that aircraft control again?
JW: Aircraft. Aircraft. The two of us. And I was in charge of the ground aerodrome, you see. And one day, one evening Titch and I were in pairs and in control of the shop, and we needed a tractor so I said, said to Titch, ‘Go down and get one of the tractors, Titch’. We had a big Edsel Ford and it was useless it was. It had no guts in it at all. It just went along, put it that way. One day I got on and all they had was a piece of wire to stop it and start it. You pulled the wire out and it kicked over. You pushed it back it stopped. So, I had to go around the aerodrome and I’m driving around and down to, like the aircraft. They were putting it off the aerodrome. Turning it around and pushing it in to the, the hangar. And I’m coming along and I can’t stop this damned thing or do anything to slow it down. Luckily, they had to push it up. I went underneath them. That was a good job I didn’t hit it otherwise I’d have been up, right up the creek. And then I asked Titch to go down and get, to get a tractor and he went down there. I thought, ‘Crikey he’s a long time, isn’t he? I wonder what the heck’s happened to him.’ Couldn’t find out what was wrong. Where he was. Why it was. The next morning gets onto the sick bay again. ‘Oh, we sent him to hospital, Hexham.’ ‘Oh. Ok.’ Then we got information that he’d, they’d sent him to hospital which was at Hexham, that’s near Carlisle. Right across country to Carlisle, and I went in and I said, ‘What happened to you?’ He said, ‘Well, I swung, I swung the handle to start her up. It kicked back and smashed me — .’ Took two inches out of his arm. They had to shorten his arm. Take out all the smashed bone out and put that on. Never saw him again. Suppose when he got better I suppose he was demobbed. And I’ve heard nothing since.
CJ: So, were you doing aircraft control until the end of the war?
JW: Yeah. And then I was left there on my tod. The other, the officers, the two officers they never turned up. Well, I didn’t see them, put it that way. And I thought to myself, I never got a breather because it was a three, three shift system. By the time you got home and had a sleep and got up again it was time to get ready and go out again. And somebody wanted, somebody lived up north, was stationed at Tangmere and, and he wanted to shift up north. Well, I heard about it so I said, ‘Well, I’ll have it. I’ll change over. See if I can change my job or something, you know beside being nearer to London as I thought. Didn’t realise Tangmere was still seventy miles from London [laughs] So, we changed over and I finished up at Tangmere. I was demobbed from there up to London. Demobbed.
CJ: So, do you remember what you were doing, what the atmosphere was like when the end of the war came?
JW: I didn’t —
CJ: How you got the news?
JW: How the what?
CJ: How did you get the news that the war had finished? VE Day.
JW: Well, to be quite honest it had no effect on me personally. It did on some people. And you see them depicted in the paper or the news. Everybody enjoying themselves. I didn’t because I happened to be on leave and I’ve never seen such misery in my life. I went home. There was nobody there, only old women. And they didn’t have coats. Some of them had shawls. You see they moan about these, what do them call them? Muslims with these —
CJ: Hijabs.
JW: I’m not saying the ones with the high side and the hat and the pin underneath the chin. Well, some of the women dressed like that. Because they never had the money to buy. They were expensive. Women’s clothing. And I came home and I seen these elderly people walking about. Neighbours. No lights. And unlike India and places like that where there’s thousands, millions of stars up there just like lights shining down you could see your way about everywhere. You had lampposts and things like that on, in front of you. I went into a pub and there was only me and my father in there, and my stepmother. And I think the old-fashioned oil lamp on the counter. No noise. I thought, bugger this. I was glad to get back.
CJ: So was there a lot of bomb damage as well in that area?
JW: Oh, at Guy’s Hospital. They counted fifty six bombs in Guy’s Hospital. Where that Shard is at London Bridge Station. A bomb. On this particular night I went to the pictures. The Troc-ette up in Tower Bridge Road with my mates at the time. We went in there and when it finished we came out. My mate, he said, ‘Well, my mother and sister, are down in, down under London Bridge Station, in the shelter.’ And they had a huge massive steel door. You went through the front and behind. In the tunnel itself there was a massive door. They went down there. Myself and my best friends, we went home. We didn’t know until the next day that the bomb had hit that shelter and killed so many people. And also the secondary bomb which was dormant temporarily had exploded and killed the nurses and doctors who were out from Guy’s looking after the children, the people in there. So that part laid derelict, laid derelict until they built the Shard. That’s fifty years isn’t it? In the meantime the, the Post Office used, used the top to take their mailbags up. They made a path, a road up from the ground and they came up that way from, from the street. And I was opposite, in bed in Guy’s and I used to look out and on Saturday nights the bottom, bottom part there they used as a dance club. Rented it or something like that. And usually crowds of youngsters up there bawling and shouting because there was a dance on. We used to see that. Well, then they cleared them out and they put the Shard up there.
CJ: So, when was it you were demobbed, and what did you do after that?
JW: I went back on tailoring. That’s all I knew. If I’d have known [pause] If I’d had knowledge of what was, what to do through experience, as I said to you I was quite hot at arithmetic and figures. I’d have gone in, I’d have been better off going in the air in one respect. Because after going to school through the RAF I learned further education, you see. Which the children don’t get. Next higher up levels as you go up. So, in one respect I’ve never been lucky on raffles and things like that. You see. But, I’m still alive. Now, my mates we went to the pictures on that particular night. He went home. John. John Rose he was. My mate’s name. He went home. He joined up the RAF just after myself and he joined up as a aircrew. Volunteered for aircrew and you’d got to be able to pass an exam to get into aircrew and be fit. And he went to Pembrey. There’s a gunnery, a gunnery school there down in Pembrey in South Wales and so on. Then he was posted to 76 Squadron, Linton on Ouse. I had a couple of letters. I had them here. And he wrote back and he said, “Well, I don’t mind going to Berlin.” Now, Berlin was always splashed in the paper as a terrible place to go to for aircraft. I suppose it was just reassuring news that to the public at large. But he said his squadron were doing like the dirty work. The — what’s the word for it? Diversionary. And he got shot down and killed over Magdeburg. Don’t know. There’s no name of where he went. He’s one of the nine thousand odd missing. So, all I can figure out is that they’ve gone in to bomb. The shell’s done that. I only hope that he didn’t get damaged and come down in the North Sea because he’d just freeze to death in the North Sea.
CJ: So, did, did you carry on tailoring until you retired?
JW: Yeah. Yeah.
CJ: Or did you have any other jobs?
JW: Yes. I was tailoring. And [pause] some clothing if it had silks woven into it. Stripes, bottoms. Hundred percent tax. There was no turn ups. They were all straight bottoms where before the war they were turn ups. That’s one of the things that made it hard for tailoring to make a good profit. Also, if the cost of the primary object was increased all those people who get a cut all the way to the retailer, put the price up. So, it was to their interest that they kept the price down, so the tailors were always, as different jobs came in sometimes you were rushed. You would be working late into the evening and half the night with jobs. In that particular trade people would, businessmen would come in. Business people would come in. And they, they would make arrangements say for next year or sometime next year. Well, if you get one or two people come in at the same time and want, you’ve got the job half done. Like prepared. Not finished. Three of them come in and say well shall we say and all wanting in the one day or two you’re working half the blessed night. You see. That’s the, that’s the point when the chap works on his own on a business.
CJ: So, coming back to the RAF. Was there a Squadron Association that you joined and you went to any reunions? Or did you manage to —
JW: I was too busy.
CJ: Keep in touch with anybody?
JW: I couldn’t. The job itself, my job itself wasn’t a regular nine to five job. So, therefore I couldn’t. I couldn’t say well I’ll be in such and such a place at 6 o’clock three months’ time. I don’t know, I might be busy. And if I’m busy and I’m working there and I don’t do the job there was no work. You see. Whereas the chap who, say for instance the chap who works for the government he’s a salaried person. He walks, well he gets to work at a certain time, does his jobs and walks out. Finished. At the end of the week in those days, or a month there’s his cheque. If he goes to buy his house — ‘Who do you work for?’ ‘Oh, I work for this government place,’ so and so, and so and so. Income and all that. They’re guaranteed to get their money back in a sense because as long as you’re alive they’ll get their money back eventually and the profits on it. On the other hand, the manufacturer or the person working in manufacturing he could get the sack, the sack with an hours’ notice. There’s no, I can’t think of the word. There’s no guarantee that he’ll be working next week. He signed up today. He might be out of work next week and can’t afford, hasn’t got the repayments. So, they’re not going to take chances on him and they couldn’t give it. It’s only when that, do you want some money lark came in and they allowed people to buy their house it was like chancing it. It’s all changed.
CJ: I think you told me earlier that you’d been up to the Bomber Command Centre a couple of years ago. Was this the opening?
JW: Yes. That’s. Now, did I have it here? I don’t know whether I —I went up there. I don’t know how I got, I may have got it through the club. Oh, here we are.
CJ: But this was for the opening of the Spire was it?
JW: Yes. It may have been sent through them. I can’t remember but —
CJ: So, did —
JW: My mate. He’s mad on aircraft and anything and he’s, he’s in this here, the club at Shoreham.
CJ: The Friends of the Few.
JW: Yeah.
CJ: At Shoreham Museum. Yeah. Ok.
JW: You see. And through him he probably may have put my name down or something or the other. Anyway, I got that information and he himself was going up there so he said, ‘I’ll take you up.’ So, he takes me to Biggin Hill and, because I can’t get out of here. I’ve got no car and I don’t drive.
CJ: Did you get to see some other, to meet other veterans when you went up to Lincoln?
JW: No. No. I didn’t. I didn’t meet any, any there when I went to Lincoln. Well, that’s another point. I went to Lincoln. As I said there was this big marquee where all the ex-aircrew were and there was seating there for four hundred and only three hundred odd turned up. So, I’m sitting here, and my granddaughter took me up. She’s sitting there on my right, and there was an empty seat opposite me and a chap came in and he sat down opposite me. That’s right. I said, ‘Good morning,’ or made, to make a conversation. But he was dumb in a sense. Alright. We get our dinner. We’re getting through our dinner and my granddaughter, she’s asking him and talking to him and so on and so forth. I can’t hear because I’m partially deaf, and then the noise, the hubbub going on. And then I saw a woman slide in, in that empty seat opposite my granddaughter, and she put a paper in, about that size. A4 folder. Opened it up, and it’s something or the other and he started crying. Put his head down weeping. I thought, well what’s happened here? Well, it transpired that he’d have been involved in this Croix de Guerre or something which the Frenchmen put out. He’d been flying over Paris or somewhere in France and got shot down. He was captured by the Partisans but he managed to get away. The Partisans got shot by the Germans but he managed to get away. And then he, he got through somehow or the other. He got back to England. He went over again and he got shot down again. And something serious really upset him. Whether that was the first time he was manhandled by the Germans or second time, something like serious upset him and he was just shaking and crying there. His head was almost on the table. You couldn’t console him. Just let him go out. And she gave him this. She showed him this citation and the paper and she read it out to him. He was in no condition to read it all. And, I don’t know, I can’t remember whether she gave him the medal or if this was just the citation before the medal was presented. But I said to my granddaughter, ‘There you are. That’s, you’ve seen it with your own eyes what these blokes went through.’
CJ: So, how do you feel Bomber Command were treated after the war? Aircrew?
JW: Well, quite honestly I was too busy trying to make a living. I didn’t have a secure type of job. So, I was like in and out of work short time, because once you finished your job you were paid and that’s that. There was no, no signing on the dole or, or things like that which people get. That’s the difference between my way of thinking of the past, pre-war to those who were born after the war and always get these freebies. Think they’re hard done by if they have to work or something. But otherwise every time I have a flash, sometimes I might be half asleep and I have a flash come through and it reminds me of where I was or sometime or the other or what we were doing. But not just reading it off, like from a book. It’s gone out the back of my head. That’s why these are patchy like when the, as I’m talking. I’m talking at the present and something’s happened before that in in the past leading up to the present or the future. But I’m just my, the crux I have when I think of the children. How they’re not getting an education that they should be getting. Because there won’t be any work now when those ships come here from China with a million tons on board. Come up the Thames. Were they going to come up here with cars? You see Chinese cars on the market, or like pictures or films of them? We’ve been led to believe that the Chinese are a poor country or something. But when you, when you see the traffic around Beijing. Those places. It’s always us who are behind. Not them.
CJ: Well, thank you very much indeed, John. That was a fascinating interview. Thank you for talking to us today.
JW: Well, that’s quite, I’m glad to have a chance to talk about it. I’ll probably remember a lot of things when you’re gone. But that’s one of those things.
CJ: Well, thanks very much. You remembered an awful lot.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Harry Waye
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWayeJH171009
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:31:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
John Waye grew up in London. He was ten years old when he was hospitalised with diphtheria. When he was discharged he discovered his mother had died while he had been in hospital. John was working in the retail trade and was in the ATC before he volunteered for aircrew. He trained as a gunner and was posted to 355 Squadron at RAF Salbani. As a member of 355 Squadron he and his crew were involved in operations against the Japanese. He was then posted to air sea rescue duties from Jessore.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
India
Iraq
Israel
England--London
India
Iraq--Ḥabbānīyah
Israel--Tel Aviv
Bangladesh--Jessore District
Bangladesh
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Requires
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John was born at Wickham Place, London, and went to school at the Snowfield School until he was ten. His father worked on the river during the Depression. John tells of his live during that time including some illegal betting.
After leaving school he worked in the clothing trade until the Second World War broke out when John joined the ATC with the intention of going into the RAF as soon as he became eighteen. He was sent to St. Johns Wood for his initial training, with drill at Lord’s Cricket Club. John was sent to Newquay, Brighton and Bridlington which was where he learnt to be an air gunner.
In his logbook (not in the collection), he recorded the places he went to before arriving in Ciro, Egypt, and seeing the Sphinx. John He travelled as a passenger together with a pilot, in a Wellington 10. He finally arrived at RAF Salbani where he was in 355 Squadron. Here he was trained to work on four-engine bombers and flew B-24 Liberators operationally.
John describes the various crew positions and that they were a seven-man crew. He was a middle-upper gunner working to bomb the Japanese positions. Sometimes an operation would be cancelled because the British had already taken to target area from their opponents. John describes the opposition he faced both from enemy fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft fire. One of the returning trips involve the aircraft running out of fuel and the rear gunner seriously injured.
He was in India Command, which became Royal Air Force India, then Southeast and Asia Command. While there he met many Australians returning home. John was in an Australian crew, and they were sent to Jessore to go onto 91 Squadron – air sea rescue (SEAC).
John was shipped back to England before the end of the war (VE). He learnt that President Roosevelt had dies while between Gibraltar and the Bay of Biscay. 1944
Once in England he had to report to a base in Shropshire. John’s Squadron moved to a range of bases before working in charge of ground control at RAF Acklington Northumbria. John worked aircraft control until the conclusion of the war.
VE Day had ‘no effect on [John] personally.’ But there was much deprivation with the devastation from the bombing and the lack of money to buy clothing. John returned to tailoring after the Second World War, from which he retired. He didn’t join a RAF Squadron Association or go to any reunions because his was an unsecure job, so John didn’t have much time to think about how the members of Bomber Command were treated after the war.
John has been to the International Bomber Command Centre and was there at its opening the Spire). He found it difficult to talk to other veterans as he’s partially deaf now. He sometimes has flashbacks to his time in the RAF and feels that they should be learning much more of the Second World War.
Claire Campbell
air gunner
air sea rescue
aircrew
B-24
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1256/17041/PNotonTE1901.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1256/17041/ANotonTE190423.2.mp3
da6da4e1b5a6e9946417bb60971377d4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Noton, Thomas Edward
T E Noton
Description
An account of the resource
One item. An interview with Flight Lieutenant Thomas Edward Noton DFC (1923- RAF 152970) who flew with 78 Squadron at RAF Breighton, and then served in India, Indonesia, and Singapore.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-04-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Noton, TE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Thomas Edward Noton today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Tom’s home in Kent and it is Tuesday the 23rd of April 2019. Thank you, Tom for agreeing to talk to me today. Perhaps the first question I could ask you is could you tell us please about your early life? Where and when you were born and your upbringing and family life and so on.
TN: Yes. I, I was born in Greenwich near Greenwich Naval College and my father before I was born had been in the First World War obviously, but he’d been so badly wounded he’d been invalided out. Couldn’t follow his profession which was an instrument maker, and went in to partnership with a friend and ran a public house where he met my mother. It wasn’t considered suitable for him to be a publican so he gave, he sold out to the, his partner who promptly went bankrupt. And my father therefore lost any money that he had at that time, and had to make do as best he could. But I was born on the 4th of April 1923 on a day that it snowed. So I’m told. My head was born two hours before I was born. My father had to call the doctor who wasn’t the family doctor who gave him hell afterwards for not calling him. But I was successfully born and I went to school in Greenwich until the age of eleven when I passed the junior scholarship and went on to a school called Glenister Road which was by Blackwall Tunnel in Greenwich until I was fourteen where I passed another scholarship which was, would have enabled me to go to sea and learn to be a navigator. Sea navigation which I didn’t want to, want to do. Or I could become a master builder but my father wouldn’t let me be because he said you only work six months of the year in those days. And I ended up by chance applying for, to be an electrical engineer with Siemens Brothers but they had no opportunities there. They offered me a toolmaker so I became a toolmaker instead. But before I finished my apprenticeship I decided to join the Air Force so I left the, left the job which they promised they would hold for me until I came back and finished my apprenticeship. My father was not very happy about my joining the Air Force, and I can understand that because of his war experiences but he never, never stood in my way. And I honestly think that he didn’t think I’d make it as a pilot. He turned out to be right in the end [laughs] But that’s another story.
CJ: Could I ask you why you chose the RAF rather than one of the other services?
TN: Well I didn’t want to be, there was, there was a reason. There was, I was what was it called? You couldn’t join up. You were in a —
CJ: Reserved Occupation.
TN: I was in a Reserved Occupation but I could have joined the Navy as an engine room artificer, but I didn’t. I didn’t think much of going to sea. Or I could have joined the Air Force as a pilot, navigator or bomb aimer only, and it’s on my papers that if I wasn’t used in one of those categories I was to be sent back to my job. My work. And as far as the Army was concerned it wasn’t even considered. So at the age of eighteen I think, I joined. Joined the Air Force. Went to initial training course at Theale, a small airfield in, in Oxfordshire that then belonged to the Blue Margarine millionaire who owned Blue Margarine factories and we took over his airfield. And there we were graded as to whether we went as pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and I was graded as pilot status. And it was from there that I then went to Manchester. A holding camp. Until such time as it was decided whether we went to Rhodesia or Canada. And my, my, I went to Canada. Not by choice but because that’s where I was sent. Around at New Brunswick, Newfoundland at a Holding Unit. Went from there to, and this is where I get confused now. Just a minute. Having left Nova Scotia we were posted to Virden, Manitoba which was an Elementary Flying School. At Elementary Flying School. While I was at Elementary Flying School Bomber Command changed their methods of crewing heavy bombers by releasing the second pilot and having only one pilot on board and most of us who were on the course were re-mustered as either navigation, navigating or bomb aiming. Therefore, I went to Brandon and was held there for a while. Brandon, Manitoba. And then I was stationed at St Johns, Quebec where I did a navigation course. And after St Johns, Quebec I went to Dafoe on a bombing and gunnery course. I may have got those mixed around the wrong way. I’m not sure. On, on graduation I was commissioned. One of only two people, one of only three people in the course who were commissioned. The other two happened to be my friends as it happened. And then we went to, back to New Brunswick and came, travelled home to England on the Queen Mary which was an event in itself because there was about twenty odd thousand troops on board. Mostly American all being sent to England, and we were given squadrons of American soldiers to look after while we were on the travels. Having arrived at England I went on leave and then I went to ITW. I’ve missed. I’ve missed the ITW bit out somewhere along the line. I went there before I went to Theale. Actually [pause] that was at Torquay. Yeah. That was before. That was before I went to Theale [pause] I think at that stage of having gone, returned they didn’t know what to do with us for a while so they sent us on a course at Ludlow where we had, we camped in a field and during the day had tutoring in mathematics until we were then passed on and went to [pause] where did we go? I’m getting this all wrong.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you said that you’d had time in Ludlow earlier before your training. And that you then went to the Initial Training Wing in Torquay. Then you had these different postings to schools in Quebec and that you’d then graduated and then you said you came back to the UK after that.
TN: That’s right.
CJ: And where were you next?
TN: Halfpenny Green.
TN: Where the hell did I go?
CJ: I have a note here about Halfpenny Green. Advanced flying.
TN: Oh, yeah. I was just. Yes. I think it was that.
CJ: So you said that there was a decision taken to take away the second pilot on the bomber crew. What was the reason for that?
TN: Well, the reason for that, I think was aircraft were becoming available faster than they could get pilots. So by taking the second pilot and turning him into a captive aircraft they freed those occupancies and it also meant that the bomb aimer could assist the navigator in the astro navigation and the H2S when it came in. Gee. All these things that came in on navigation aids, could help with that and also do the bomb aiming because before that the navigator virtually did the lot himself and it became too much for them. And that’s the line that I followed. To be, mainly act as the bomb aimer/second pilot come navigator as required. Then we were posted to Halfpenny Green which was somewhere near Birmingham, and did the course, concentrated course on navigation. From there I moved on to [pause] what was the name of the damned place?
CJ: Stanton Harcourt?
TN: Yeah. I was posted to Abingdon and moved out from there to there to the satellite field of Stanton Harcourt flying Whitleys. But while at Abingdon we formed a crew which amounted to being all thrown together in a large hangar and told not to come out until we’d got together as a crew which everybody seemed to manage. My first pilot was a sergeant and I was told, or the rest of us were told that he couldn’t go forward. He had to go back for extra training. But there was a pilot available who was called a headless, headless, we were called a headless crew. And he was a pilot without a crew. So they put us together and asked us to think about it which we did and it was possibly the best decision we ever made because he was an excellent pilot. Very, very, very good. A New Zealander. And from that point on we, we progressed through Stanton Harcourt doing our first op as a leaflet dropping exercise over Paris. And from there we graduated to an OTU. I don’t remember where the OTU was.
CJ: Was it Rufforth?
TN: Rufforth. Rufforth. I’m losing my voice. Rufforth was the moving over to four engine aircraft.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you were on the OTU. The Operational Training Unit at Stanton Harcourt. And where was your next stop?
TN: The next move was to Rufforth in Yorkshire. 1663 Con Unit. Conversion Unit. Where we converted to four engine Halifaxes, before going on to 78 Squadron at Breighton, Yorkshire. 4 Group.
CJ: And when was this that you were moved to the operational squadron?
TN: I flew my first operational flight on [pause] give me a minute [pause]
[recording paused]
TN: Moved to the 78 Squadron on 18th of June ’44 where I completed thirty five operations before being screened. At which time I was awarded the DFC.
CJ: And did you fly all your missions with the same crew?
TN: Every mission was flown with the same crew. Yes. The crew was made up of a pilot named Selby who was a New Zealander [pause] rear gunner named Pollock who was English. A mid-upper gunner named Walmer who was English. A flight engineer named [pause] the flight engineer’s name was Stan Knight who was an ex-policeman. An Englishman. And the wireless operator’s name was Daniels who was an Englishman. And that made up the crew, I think. That would be all of them.
CJ: And given that you started your operations shortly after D-Day had that changed the type of target that you were attacking compared with crews who were flying missions before?
TN: For a, for a period of time we supported the army who were in the Caen area by bombing tank emplacements and generally making ourselves obnoxious to the Germans for Montgomery who, who did give us a citation for what we did for him. It wasn’t so much that we had to hit the tanks, it was churning up the ground to stop the tanks from moving while he got his troops together. But after that, after a period of that we then moved on to flying bomb sites and V-1, V-1, V-2 sites and then places like Brest, Kiel, Duisburg. Some of them being daylight raids rather than night raids and on one or two occasions there were mine laying operations at Kattegat and Skagerrak.
CJ: And given that this was later in the war and you were aiming for more scattered targets did you meet much opposition in the way of flak or fighters?
TN: We met very little opposition from fighters. We were attacked once or twice by fighters but evaded them. But fighters didn’t seem to be a great problem but flak was always exceptionally heavy and unfortunately you couldn’t avoid it because it was always around the target. And it was difficult when you were dropping the incendiaries for instance with a two thousand pound bomb as well because the terminal velocities were different. So you dropped one lot before you dropped the other and you had to fly straight and level to make sure that it dropped in with them and disrupted everything going on below on the ground with fire fighting forces and those sort of things. And of course you had just to stay there and take it. One thing I have always been astounded by is that there wasn’t more crashes in the air of aircraft colliding with the numbers of aircraft that were in the air at any one time. But I didn’t see too many of them. All in all I can’t complain about the tour of ops I did because it, we got knocked about a bit from time to time. We crash landed a couple of times but we always seemed to get away with it.
CJ: And you were flying which aircraft and what did you think of that aircraft?
TN: The Halifax I thought was an excellent aircraft. I couldn’t compare it with other aircraft because we never flew them such as the Lancaster etcetera, but the Halifax I have no complaints about. I thought it was a great aircraft. It could take a lot of punishment.
CJ: And have you been able to visit any aircraft in museums for example?
TN: Well, I’ve been to Duxford where they have remnants of the, of a Halifax and I’ve been to Croydon where they have a Halifax. Not complete but in pretty good shape which was dug up from the fjords in Norway after attacking the Tirpitz. And I’ve also been to Elvington where they have a fairly fully built Halifax. But that was a number of years ago now.
CJ: I think you had a birthday treat recently to Hendon.
TN: Hendon. Yes.
CJ: Yeah.
TN: Hendon. Recently.
CJ: Yeah.
TN: Where they do have a Halifax but not in, not in complete form.
CJ: And coming back to operations could you tell us please what the procedure was if you were going on operations? How you found out where you were going, what route you were taking, and how the crew felt before you went and so on.
TN: You were called to, called to a meeting in the operations hut, and there you would find a board with who was flying that day or night as the case may be with timing for briefing. First briefing. And you would have a quick first briefing between the bomb aimers and the navigators, gunners all got their separate briefings. And then you would go for your meal which usually consisted of eggs and bacon before the final briefing at which the targets were shown. The routes were shown, the weather was given and you were wished good luck. One amusing incident was the CO came on board one evening, one night and said, ‘I’ve got good news for you, and I’ve got bad news for you. The good news is that you’re not going to Berlin tonight but the bad news is you can only have one meal and you’ll either have it before you go or when you come back. So when do you want your eggs?’ And one united roar, ‘We’ll have it before we go.’ [laughs] That’s quite true that is. Then you would hang around on the base. Go out to your aircraft having flown it during the daytime to make sure that everything was ok and [pause] wait for take-off.
CJ: And after the each raid were you debriefed on what had happened?
TN: On return providing you returned to your own airfield you were debriefed. Debriefed on site by usually a WAAF officer. What were the navigation problems you had, what problems you had with the aircraft, anything you saw distinctive over the target, any action that the Germans had taken against you. On one occasion my rear gunner said to the debriefing officer who was a young WAAF officer that he, he had noticed one peculiar problem. When on being asked what it was he said they were using black searchlights. And it was a minute or two before she realised that [laughs] he was taking the pee out of her. But she was quite happy about it.
CJ: And how did the crews fill their time if, if ops were off and you had free time?
TN: Well, free time we spent either wandering around York. We all, all had bicycles except the flight engineer who managed to find himself a car which we made use of. I don’t know where he got his petrol from. I never asked him. And going to the cinema. Having any odd lunch out. Little cafes that were open in York. Going to the local dances. And just generally, generally spent your time together as a crew.
CJ: So you were deemed to have, you finished your tour with thirty five ops. What was it like when your crew finished that last op?
TN: It, it was, we finished our last op rather badly in a way because the weather had been bad. The airfield was a bit waterlogged. We ran off the runway and bogged the undercart down and had to hang about around the aircraft waiting for somebody to come and pick us up which took rather a long time. And the person who came in the wagon to pick us up was the local, the padre. My skipper was in a bit of a mood and said, ‘You took your time didn’t you?’ And the padre said, ‘Why? What’s so special about you lot?’ [laughs] before we went back to debriefing. But it had been planned to have a party that night after the party, after the last op was finished together with another crew who were finishing their tour but they crashed on landing and blew up. So we called the party off as, in actual fact I can only recall during my time on the squadron my crew being the only crew that survived while I was on there, that finished their tour of ops when I was on the squadron. There was, I think about thirty two crew members. Thirty two crews.
CJ: So after you’d finished your tour of ops where did you head for next?
TN: Well, they asked me what I’d like. Whether I’d like to go on, on instructing which I said I would, as close to London as possible so I could go home [laughs] But instead of that they posted me to Bombay and I spent a little time in the camp at Bombay and then was sent to a repair and servicing unit up close to the north west frontier which was a very long trip by train. I seem to remember it took two to three days by train, sleeping on the train and eating on the train. And when I got there I’d been posted there as adjutant. When I got there I found there was already an adjutant in place and so I was surplus to requirements. So I sort of hung about doing odd jobs for the CO and the squadron leader discip, and then I was posted to Dehradun as CO, officer commanding a transit camp in the foothills of the Himalayas. I had nineteen people under me and we used to shift through every fortnight something like two thousand airmen coming up from the plains, the plains for a week in the hills and then we would shift the other lot. As we shifted one lot out we’d shift another lot in. When that finished, the season, the season finished they closed the camp down and put it in mothballs till the following year and I was posted to [pause] Medan in Sumatra. I think it was Medan.
[recording paused]
TN: From Dehradun I was posted then to Medan in Sumatra but sent to Madras to form the unit as adjutant. While, while there the operation was cancelled and we were going to be dispersed but it was later put on, back on again after having lost most of our equipment to other people. Which I then got the job of going out for and finding it and getting it returned to the unit before we moved on to Medan. Medan, as far as I was concerned was a disaster because the CO and I didn’t get on [laughs] I didn’t like him. He didn’t like me. So I requested a posting which I got, to Surabaya as the adjutant of a double Mustang squadron under a wing commander who had been a Bomber Command pilot and we got on famously. He’d often disappear down to the docks with his Naval officer friends while I looked after the unit and he would just ring in to see if everything was alright. After Surabaya I went back to Singapore. I spent some time and then came home by ship and was eventually demobbed.
CJ: And so what did you after demob?
TN: After my demob I went back to, I took a few weeks holiday, then went back to work and finished my apprenticeship and also married my wife. One of the best things I ever did. Still get emotional about that. But having finished my apprenticeship for some reason I came to the notice of the managing director of Siemens Brothers who asked if I would like to go to the north of England where they were setting up a new factory and start a new, start the tool shop up which I did. I set up the tool shop. Set up the tool design department and then was made production director of the unit. I did that job for about three or four years and then one day was summoned to the works manager’s office who said he had something to tell me. That he was going back to London on a new job and there was going to be a new works manager. I asked him who it was. Did I know him? And he said, ‘Yes, you know him very well. It’s you.’ I said, ‘When?’ And he said, and this was on the Friday and I asked when I took over and he said on Monday which was a bit of a shock. But I had just remained the works manager there for ten years when GEC took over and I decided I didn’t want to work for GEC and got a job as works manager, later director of manufacture with Churchill Gear Machines who were part of the GKN group. Things at home were getting a bit bad in London with my mother in law so we decided we’d move again, and Philips offered me a job and I came back to Philips and eventually was a works manager of the small appliance division based at Hastings for ten years. And when I took early retirement and never looked back. Is that alright? I mean does that do?
CJ: Yeah. And are you still in touch with any of the, any of your old crew?
TN: Yes. I still, still talk over by phone to my rear gunner about once a month. He either rings me or I ring him. We’ve been to a couple of reunions together over the years. He’s lost his wife, I’ve lost mine so we’re both in the same boat. But the rest of the crew I have no knowledge of where they are or what happened to them. I know that the engineer died of appendicitis which turned to peritonitis. He died many years ago. The rest of the crew are probably, probably are dead now anyway. There’s only the two of us remaining.
CJ: And looking back after the war and even up to now how do you think Bomber Command were thought of or were, were treated?
TN: I think Bomber Command was treated fairly badly. Not so much by the public but by the government of the time. It was probably done with the best of intent. Maybe very good reasons for it but we seemed to be treated as murderers rather than people fighting a war and that has never been really put right, you know. Never got a, never got a Bomber Command medal. Got a clasp after many, many years. And the CO, Harris wasn’t treated as well as some of the other generals and admirals were treated. I think all in all we were an embarrassment at the end. That’s my true feelings about that. The general public I don’t think felt that way but I mean the raid on Dresden. That was a terrible thing but then there was good reasons for it. Is that, that’s still on?
CJ: Well, thank you very much for speaking to us today, Tom.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Edward Noton
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-04-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANotonTE190423, PNotonTE1901
Format
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00:35:55 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas Edward Noton was born in Greenwich on the 4th of April 1923. Upon leaving school he began a toolmaking apprenticeship, however, before finishing the course, Noton decided to join the Royal Air Force at the age of eighteen. He explains why he chose the RAF over the Navy and the reservations of his father, who was wounded in the First World War. After training in London and Canada, Noton explains how his crew was formed at RAF Abingdon and their conversion to flying Halifaxes. On the 18th of June 1944, he joined 78 Squadron, stationed at RAF Breighton, where he completed 35 operations with the same crew and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Noton talks about operation procedures, including eating a meal of eggs and bacon before take-off, his flying experiences, and why planned celebrations following their final operation were cancelled. He also talks about joking and spending time with his crew, cycling around York, and attending the cinema or local dances in their free time. Noton then served in India, Indonesia, and Singapore before he was demobilised. He recalls returning home to complete his apprenticeship, marrying his wife, and his career as a production manager. Finally, Noton describes his lifelong friendship with a fellow crew member and his opinion regarding the government’s treatment of Bomber Command.
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--London
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
India
Indonesia
Singapore
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-18
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
1663 HCU
78 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
entertainment
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
military living conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Breighton
RAF Rufforth
RAF Stanton Harcourt
recruitment
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/PDeverellCRE1901.2.jpg
950416d1c0bc8ddd5d7e83d96d0bcca5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/ADeverellCRE190722.2.mp3
011ccd66271ee51e3abd56830e71714f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Deverell, Colin
Colin Ray Edwin Deverell
C R E Deverell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Deverell (b. 1923). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Deverell, CRE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I am interviewing Colin Deverell today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Colin’s home and it is Monday the 22nd of July 2019, and thank you Colin for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present is Colin’s daughter, Liz. So Colin perhaps we could start by you telling me about where and when you were born and something about your family please.
CD: Yes, well I was born in Thornton Heath, Croydon, on the 28th of November 1923, at number 13 Camden Way. It was a council house. I had a father who was on the buses as an inspector and a mother who worked jolly hard at home doing the washing and everything else in those days. I went to school locally, Elementary school, Ingram Road, that was quite close. It was quite a good school actually. And later on, I failed, I have to say I failed the grammar school, the exam for the grammar school, so I failed that and I went to a secondary school so that was up until I was aged fourteen, when I left. Okay. And then on from there, and on from there what to do as a job. This is the trouble with boys, they didn’t know what they wanted to do you see, but I was very keen on aircraft but at that stage you couldn’t get anywhere with aircraft but I went to, worked at a firm called Oliver Typewriter Company, Oliver typewriters – I have one upstairs actually - and I was making those and that was the best bit of engineering I did really, to learn how to, how to drill through metal, how to put a thread in a hole for a bolt and things like that and stamping out pieces for the typewriter, you know, all the arms that come down, everything like that. So that was, that got me into Imperial Airways, my father worked hard to get me in to Imperial Airways in some way and became a rigger, just an amateur rigger, you know, to start off. Well the reason I’d got there was because I had got all this information from the typewriters, engineering, and I learnt a lot from these aircraft, putting parts into the aircraft, doing this, that and the other, dogsbody, making coffee for the people that worked there, that’s what boys had to do and I watched other engineers soldering wires together and that sort of thing so I learnt from that you see, and that went on, until, well that was all these Handley Page aircraft, big bi-planes with four engines, fixed propellers that didn’t move at all and it flew at about four thousand miles, er four thousand feet at about a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty miles an hour and took two and a half hours to get to Paris. So the steward on board, they had stewards then, cooked them a meal, all of them a meal, they had proper meals. So that was a nice little trip for them at four thousand feet. Well that went on until the war started and I’m afraid it went out of business of course and I was there till about November 1939 and I was told well I’m afraid the apprentice had come to an end, so that was the end of that and I lost my job as well so I had to find something else. I searched round and a lot of little firms at Croydon aerodrome, lot of hangars down there, one of them was called Rollason Aircraft Services, and I went there and yes I got a job there, I was drilling and all sorts of things, working on bi-planes Hawker Hectors, Demons and Audaxes and all obsolete aircraft and that was a wonderful period. Of course the war was on unfortunately. So what happened, by July, July the 10th, 1940 the bombing started on airfields and Biggin Hill and Kempston and Kenley and all these got a bashing. Croydon got it on the 15th of August, 15th of August 1940 at 7pm in the evening. These Messerschmidt 110s came over and there’s a picture up there, and I’m sorry to say, well I was underneath an Airspeed Oxford, it’s a twin-engined wooden aircraft, now we had to get this aircraft out - this was seven o’clock in the evening - we had to get this aircraft out of the hangar by the morning because they were bringing some Hurricanes in that needed repairs, so I was underneath there with another chap doing some wiring when all these bombs came down. At the back of our factory there was a Bourgeois scent factory and about fifty girls got killed there, we lost about, there were sixty were killed or injured in Rollasons, so I was, I mean how lucky can I be [emphasis] to be underneath that aircraft, glass, metal came down, the glass went through the wood, it’s a wooden aircraft, through the wood, into the metal tanks, into the metal tanks to glass [emphasis], thick glass, yeah, so I think I would have died, I wouldn’t have been here if I had been outside. But I don’t know if you want more information on that but thing is, I was covered in muck and glass and stuff, you know, and severely dazed, the place was on fire, the little canteen had been bombed and there was a bottle of Tizer - I found a bottle of Tizer - and took the screw off and poured it over me head and I don’t recommend that to anybody because it’s very sticky! So I had a sticky head, so that’s my Tizer. Anyway, I had a new bike, my father bought me a new bike for two pound seven and sixpence, two pound seven and sixpence, and I thought to myself where’s my bike. Well this, you know it went on through the evening, we were told to go down to the air raid shelter and went down there and after a few minutes told to come up again, because the siren hadn’t gone, you know, before the raid. No one knew it was happening. Nobody, nobody on the gun, cause a Bofurs gun there, nobody there to operate it to shoot aircraft down. Anyway, so I got on, oh I found my bike leaning against the wall and it was all right so I cycled home and at that stage we were living in Thornton Road, Croydon, a little flat there, and when I got round there I saw my mother leaning out of the window actually, cause she knew the place was being bombed you see, she thought I’d have had it. I mean seven o’clock it happened, it was ten o’clock when I got home. Just imagine, how pleased she was to see me. Sadly for her we were bombed, the house was damaged quite badly and she died on Christmas Day in 1940, all the ceiling in the kitchen came down on her head and damaged her brain, so I lost my mother quite early in my life, which was very sad really. Anyway, I moved to another, to a friend of mine in Streatham, and that’s when I went to this new school, and then eventually. Sorry, I’m going back a bit here, but that’s when I left to go to erm, the, oh sorry, when I went, oh the yeah, sorry, after the raid we, they treated me very well – Rollasons - I went back to them, I was very dazed as you can imagine, being bombed as a boy, I was only fifteen and I went to the office they said and well we’ll keep you on pay for the time being and we’ll let you know what happens. So I went home again and eventually we were told we were going to Hanworth aerodrome in Middlesex, funny little aerodrome actually, it was just a sort of almost a private, just grass, you know. They had a few Fairey Battles there. Anyway, we still continued repairing Hurricanes, but they felt there were one or two bi-planes left over from Croydon, they put these on a lorry and I remember sitting in the cockpit of a, I think it was a Hawker Demon and went all the way from Croydon to Hanworth and I was waving to people as I went by like that, [laugh] and I think they thought it was quite funny. [Laugh] I mean it’s all obsolete aircraft. But you know, went back on to Hurricanes. How did we get there, you know, each day, as I was living in Thornton Heath still, in Thornton Road. They had put a coach on for us, from West Croydon station and any of us living there, took a tram for a penny, a tram in those days, for a penny, up to West Croydon station, went over and sat in the coach and it took us to this aerodrome, and at the end of the day they brought us back again, another penny on the tram back home. So that’s how it went on. That went on all the way through 1941 and I thought to myself I want to join, I’m going to join the RAF to get my own back, my mother died, you know, so I had a sort of grievance feeling about all this. So I went to the Croydon, the Croydon agency and they said well, we’re sending chaps down, down the coal mines as well as the army. I said no, no, I’m working on aircraft, I want something to do with aircraft, I want to train as a pilot. Don’t they all, she said, I remember, she said don’t they all! And there was a three month waiting list, okay, for, to train as a pilot, but she said we’re desperately in need of flight engineers, and they did have them on Imperial Airways actually, so it goes back a long way, on four-engined aircraft. So yes, okay, I’ll do that, so within the week I was called up. I was, I went to Lords Cricket ground, that was fun! “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here” was the sign up there. We picked up all sorts of stuff there and we, we went to, were put into flats, in Viceroy Court which is just outside a zoo, so we could hear the monkeys laughing at us and we were there for a couple weeks, or something like that. We went to Torquay from there, Torquay and did all the physical training: clay pigeon shooting, physical training, running, sports, anything, you know, just to keep our mind off things. But I used to like the running, cross country running as I got used to that, you know. Clay pigeon shooting – I got good at that - swimming I was never very good at, but anyway we’ll pass over that won’t we. One of the things we had to do was go to the quayside there, and there was a place there, it was about the height of the ceiling down to the water. And the idea was to jump off there with a Mae West on you see, and to swim to the shore. I wasn’t very happy about that, you can imagine, though I did it and I managed to get to the shore, so that was fine, but I never have been a very good swimmer. Anyway, so I joined up and within a week I was, sorry, I’m getting muddled here, I went down to Torquay, that’s it, Torquay, and I was there for six weeks, did all these familiar things, the running and the sports and everything else. And then as flight engineers we had to train at St Athan in South Wales and we had to choose between a Lancaster, oh no, Stirling, Lancaster, Halifax and the flying boat. The flying boat, what was that?
CJ: Sunderland?
CD: Sunderland, Sunderland. So it was three, four, yes, there were four we could choose from. I don’t know why, but I liked the idea of the Stirling: it had radial engines, I knew something about those you see, so I decided to train on those. So that’s what I did at St Athan, I trained on these Stirlings. It was, you know, a full day, a really full day, training and I was there, I was there for some weeks, I can’t think how long we were there now. Anyway that was in ‘40, ‘42, yes. The Stirling was a strange sort of aircraft really, it was all electric, all the other aircraft were hydraulic controlled and even the undercarriage you had wiring and a solenoid, which introduced a control there I think you’d call it and the flaps. We had fourteen petrol tanks and this was the flight engineer’s job, he had to look after those, all different amounts in each tank, you can just imagine. It was all levers and wheels, nothing, no buttons you know, like you have today and with the undercarriage the pilot switched the switch down, just as we were coming in to land, to get the undercarriage down. No, let’s start off by going up. So if we, the undercarriage was down obviously, we’d take off, the switch goes, switch up, and a lever up like that and the undercarriage should then come up, if it doesn’t the flight engineer would have to go back to the middle of the aircraft, to the control machine there and you had to wind the undercarriage up and it could be up to five hundred, five hundred turns! Yeah, so that’s, occasionally I did the flight in Stirlings, I had to just start it off. This is where you had to be careful, if you started it off, you see, and you said to the pilot try it now and he switched it up or down, whatever it is, the undercarriage, it would go round and round, and the handle and you’d break your wrist and some flight engineers did break their wrists doing that. So you had to tell the pilot: do not touch that switch till I tell you to! So that’s all, that was the operations. You’re in flight coming down, so switch down, lever down, undercarriage should come down, if not, put the switch back again, go back to the and wind it for a little while, then tell, take your hand away and take the handle out and tell the skipper to switch the, there, switch it down, [unclear] so it was quite a complicated business really, so I don’t think anyone recommended the idea of electric aircraft, but they’re all electric now, aren’t they, everything’s electric, even cars! So that’s what we had to do. It’s a very long, long aircraft. There’s an elsan at the back of the aircraft if you wanted to go to the toilet, but who would want to go all the way back there in the dark to the toilet and then be shot at by a fighter, sitting on the toilet so we never did use it, we found other means. It was fairly slow really, I mean we used to cruise at about a hundred and seventy miles an hour, whereas a Lancaster could do much more than that. And height, height was a problem: we could only go up to ten thousand feet, so anyone going to Tunis, Milan, which they did in the Stirlings, over the mountains of course, so ten thousand feet was about the limit really. And of course you took all the flak, you know, if it was Stirlings and Lancasters, as Lancasters we would be up there, we used to be up at seventeen thousand feet in a Lancaster, and the Stirlings were down here, ten thousand feet and they got loads of flak. They lost more Stirlings, including the number that actually flew, they lost far more Stirlings, so that’s the, that was my choice. We went to Chedburgh for training on the aircraft as the flight engineer, and the pilot and we had the instructors with us, we took off and did all that we needed to do at Chedburgh. And then eventually we were appointed to a squadron and on this occasion it was Wratting Common, which is quite close. I don’t know if you have, no, anyway Wratting Common was the place. Oh! Terrible place, it was all mud, it had been raining like mad and it was all mud everywhere and on one occasion I walked through the WAAF quarters as it was much drier and I was told off, oooh you can’t do that, mustn’t do that, ooh no! Anyway, the first operation we did was to the Frisian Islands, the Frisian Islands off Germany there, dropping mines, that was uneventful, came back. The second trip was to Kiel, Kiel Harbour, yup. And we had mines to go down there because the u-boats were in there, you know, and I think probably they hadn’t got the pens completely ready so I think we probably did knock out some of the submarines there. So that was the second. Now the third trip was to Lorient, l o r i e n t Lorient on the south coast of France. Lorient was a place where they had u-boat pens and they had built them there, and they were very, very thick concrete so how they thought we could, well we would, we dropped mines, we were hoping that the submarines coming back would hit one, I mean that’s what it was all about really, but the bombs wouldn’t have done anything to them. But what happened with us there, we nearly got the chop there, because off the island, I think it was about a mile, two miles, two miles off, there was an island called Isle de Croix, Island of the Cross, and our bomb aimer, he took over you see, when we were going to drop the mines, the idea was to go around the island, but we went over the island, quite low down actually and there were all these Bofors guns there, these, like onions, red hot onions on chains coming up each side of us. How they missed us I do not know! We got over the island safely and then we had to go round the island again, round [emphasis] the island and then drop these mines. But that was a close, very close, but that was what the sprog crews do, the wrong thing, you see, that’s why you always get the chop in the early days, I’m afraid. Now what did I do after that? I think we went on to Lancasters after that, we did a conversion, that was it at Tuddenham or Wratting Common. I’ve got an idea that might have been Wratting Common. The Stirling was taken off because the chop rate was so heavy; they couldn’t continue like that, and it didn’t carry much of a bomb load anyway. So that was the end of that. But of course they were in use quite a bit later on – I’ll tell you about that. So what we do we went on to Lancasters, which was what we really wanted really because we knew it was much faster, it went up much higher, seventeen thousand feet was quite usual, we thought we’d be out of the range of their flak, we hoped, so that was what we did. Actually I went to Derby with my pilot to do I think it was a couple of days on the Merlin engine, so that was quite useful and I did that without going on leave. Some went on leave you see, but I decided I wanted to learn something about the Merlin, so that was done, I came back. What was my first trip, was a – can you switch off a minute?
CJ: So what was your first operation when you’d converted to Lancasters?
CD: Well, it took us by surprise actually, it was Duisburg in the Ruhr. Course that was a very important area round there: they were producing aircraft, tanks and everything else. So on the 25th June ‘43 we went to the Ruhr valley, Duisburg which we knew would be heavily defended. We took off from about ten pm and made for the Dutch coast where we met some flak, fifteen thousand feet ahead of us we could see lots of activity in the air as we approached the Ruhr. The Ruhr was important for Germans because it was full of heavy industry and so we need to prang it hard. We had on board four thousand pound bomb, shaped like a large cannister, and ten one thousand pound bombs and loads of incendiaries. The Pathfinders were dropping their coloured flares and the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour – I can’t remember which colour it was – anyway we were now approaching the target when all hell was let loose as flak and searchlights were each side of us, we could hear shrapnel hitting the sides of our aircraft, this is the dreaded moment as the skipper opened the bomb doors, at this stage we were unable to manoeuvre: we just had to keep straight and pray. Skipper says to our two gunners, Dave Maver and Ronnie Pritchard, watch out for any night fighters, not that we could do much about it at this stage. The bomb aimer now took over: left, left, steady, right, steady, at this stage the chewing of gum was speeding up, it was sheer terror. Bombs gone says Epi, our bomb aimer. Skipper closes bomb doors and our chewing reduced in intensity. Our pilot banks to starboard and loses height to get out of the way of searchlights and flak, this is another time when night fighters are looking for us. Our navigator gives a new course for the Dutch coast, but we do a dog leg, zigzags to avoid the enemy fighters. We were watching aircraft going down in flames which makes us all a bit nervy, well it’s not like a holiday flight to Tenerife is it! - I said in brackets - We saw a small aircraft to port and a bit above us but we did not think it had been, had seen, had seen us, this was a German aircraft we thought because just twin engines but then he suddenly disappeared, we were in thick cloud and it was raining. Let’s hope we don’t collide with another aircraft. As for me as flight engineer, I was trying to keep a fuel log in the dark and with all the activity going on it was not easy. I kept a note of throttle changes because that makes all the difference to the amount of fuel one uses, plus temperature outside at our height. As we had eight – I’ve got fourteen – as we had eight [emphasis] tanks I didn’t want one to go dry, causing an engine to stop and possibly create an air lock in the system: my name would have been mud. I also kept control of the engines in orders from my skipper. I’m able to tell you that we got back safely to base and I found out later that my petrol calculations were just about right, we landed back at four thirty am, that was six and a half hours. Just over four hundred Lancs and Halifaxes took part and we lost six point one percent of the force, twenty five aircraft. Later we understood that reconnaissance had shown that much of the industry in Duisburg had been destroyed. We lost one aircraft on our squadron. On 27th of June we were due to go to Cologne, so, on 27th June 1943 we were briefed to go to Cologne in the Ruhr, but it was called off at the last moment because of foul weather over target. We briefed again on 28th of June with a slightly different route to try and fool the enemy. Over the Dutch coast the Germans had dropped chandeliers to light up the sky and so we expected to be mauled by the German night fighters. We climbed to eighteen thousand feet hoping to avoid them, but no such luck, a fighter came up on our rear, probably an Me110, a twin-engined fighter. Ronnie, our rear gunner called to the skipper: corkscrew port skip which my pilot did immediately and we went down to ten thousand feet and came up again in the corkscrew to fourteen thousand feet. Tracer bullets had gone just over the top of us at the beginning of the corkscrew, but when we settled down at fourteen thousand feet, we felt we had lost him, a really nasty moment and very nearly the end of us. We pressed on to Cologne and ran in to thick cloud, the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour and we couldn’t see them. we could see some fires below so we dropped out bombs and incendiaries on those fires and hoped for the best. We returned to England mostly in cloud and landed at about five am. We were shocked to learn that forty aircraft failed to return. The next three nights we were on shorter trips to France. Marshalling yards in Paris and a place called Wizernes where they were making these V2s I believe, if I remember rightly and it was heavily defended. Dusseldorf, went to Dusseldorf on 12th of July. Dudsseldorf was another heavily defended place, because all industry, and if you killed people down there, they were probably working in the industry anyway you see. It was a heavily defended town because of the amount of industry there. We went through the usual procedures briefing and a meal et cetera, I think take off was around ten pm. We met flak and searchlights over over France I remember, and even more so as we entered Germany. Our skipper told us, the gunners, to look out for night fighters as they were bound to be operating. Eventually we could see ahead the Pathfinder’s flares and as usual in the Ruhr, a wall flak and searchlights. As flight engineer I had to do several jobs at the same time: keep looking out of the cabin for the position of the searchlights, help the skipper with the engine controls, keep a close watch on the fuel we were using, and write up my log so that I would know when to change the petrol tanks; all this on twelve shillings per day, and as a bonus we were threatened by death at any moment. Ah well, I did volunteer! Yes, one of the raids we went to was Stuttgart, this was another heavily, sorry, have to cut that out, yes, we pressed on to Stuttgart and dropped our bombs on target. We bombed the coloured flares dropped by the Pathfinders, skipper did a sharp turn to starboard and nearly hit another Lancaster, it was only just a few feet away from us, as it climbed in front of us. We climbed to seventeen thousand feet in clear skies when suddenly Ronnie Pritchard, our rear gunner, shouted over the intercon: corkscrew to port skipper and down we went to twelve thousand feet. It was another case of an Me110 was still on our tail, so up we went to starboard and then down again to port. I think we’ve lost him. Another thing, this sort of activity was not good for ones stomach! And also try to work out the fuel we’d used, anyway, I did the best I could. But that was a pretty grim trip because we nearly crashed into this other Lancaster. Yeah, yeah. On 17th of August 1943 we were given a very important mission. Apparently our spy planes had detected some rockets at a place called Peenemunde, in northern Germany. It had been known for some time that the Germans had been producing hard water at Peenemunde, which is used in atomic weapons, but of course these weapons had not been produced by any nation at that time. But the future would have looked bleak if they had been able to carry on their research, the powers that he, told Bomber Harris, oh the powers that be that he had told Bomber Harris that Peenemunde must be obliterated. Almost six hundred bombers, almost six hundred bombers would take part and we expected heavy losses as we felt it must be defended. We flew by night of course, and the flight arrangement was as follows: two hundred Stirlings would go in first at eight thousand feet, followed by four hundred Lancasters at ten thousand feet. The Pathfinders would be there first, dropping flares to light up the area. By good fortune a feint was going on over Berlin, with twin engine Mosquitoes, the Germans thought Berlin therefore was the main target and sent their night fighters there. The Stirlings went in to Peenemunde and dropped their bombs, and then turned for home without any losses. the German night fighters realised their mistake and turned back to Peenemunde just as the Lancasters went in to bomb the place. I remember a great deal of chaos, as aircraft after aircraft was shot down. It was, [sigh] it was very unnerving to see so many Lancasters on fire, we dropped our bombs on the target and fled the area and got back safely. Forty Lancasters - actually it was forty two – forty two Lancasters were shot down that night, ten percent of the force. Analysis later showed the bombing effort had been reasonably successful. Spy planes would keep an eye on the place in case another attack was necessary. My squadron lost one Lancaster out of twelve despatched. On the next night we were on the flight list again. At briefing found we found subject was Bremen. Well, that was fairly cushy compared with Peenemunde. Yeah. At Peenemunde was a very important town for us to destroy because the V2s they were producing would have been ready before D-Day, and you can just imagine what would have happened if that had happened: the D-day wouldn’t have been possible, you know. As it was, on D-Day one never saw a German fighter because they mostly had been destroyed, but Peenemunde was the, the town to get, we never had to go back there because they moved the whole lot to somewhere else in Germany which we kept bombing later on, but that was the most important one for D-Day, was Peenemunde, okay. At a briefing on the 23rd of August 1943, we learned the worst, yes, the worst, yes, it was to be the first big night raid on Berlin, by six hundred and fifty Lancasters and Halifaxes. Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, had said that no foreign aircraft would be allowed to fly over the capital of the Third Reich, well we’ll have to see if he’s right. We were all rather depressed about this operation as we knew that Berlin was considered to be the most heavily defended of all German towns. We were taken out to the aircraft at nine pm and I remember we sat around the aircraft waiting for start up time and nobody hardly spoke a word. We took off at nine thirty pm and we would be amongst the first wave into the attack. Berlin’s thirty five mile area was dotted with lights, so that it was hard to distinguish the bursts of anti-aircraft shells below from the coloured markers dropped by the Pathfinders. The first thing we had to do was fly through a wall of searchlights, hundreds [emphasis] of them in colours and clusters. Behind all that was an even fiercer light glowing red, green and blue and over there millions of flares hanging in the sky, A huge mass of fires below. If this is Hell, then I have been there. Flak is bursting all around us at fifteen thousand feet, there is one comfort, and that is not hearing the shells bursting outside because of the roar of the four Merlin engines. We flew on and it was like running straight into the most gigantic display of soundless fireworks in the world. The searchlights are coming nearer now all the time. As one cone split then it comes together again. They seem to splay out then stop, then come together again and as they do there’s a Lancaster right in the centre. Skipper puts the nose down, more power he asks, and I increase the throttle and we are pelting along at a furious rate as we are coming out of the searchlight belt more flak is coming up from the minor defences. A huge explosion near our aircraft: it shakes like mad. Skipper asks everybody to report that they are okay. I thought that the aircraft must have been hit somewhere but everything seemed to be working as far as I could tell: engine revs okay, oil pressure okay, petrol gauge okay. Would we get out of this hell alive? Hello skipper, navigator here, half a minute to dropping zone, okay says skipper, bomb doors open, bomb aimer now takes over, okay, steady, right a bit, bombs gone, bomb doors closed, keep weaving skipper, lots of flak coming up, I tell him, going to starboard something hits us, but we don’t know what or where. I report to skipper that a Jerry fighter has just passed over us from port to starboard, our mid-upper gunner also reported a fighter, we keep going out of the main area of searchlights. I take a look at the furious fires below and masses of flak and Pathfinder flares, a mass of other Lancasters and other Halifaxes has to get through. Looking back we can see aircraft going down in flames, thank god we are out of the main firestorm I say to myself. Skipper through the intercom tells everyone to watch out for night fighters as they are bound to be active. I give my log a good check in as we couldn’t be short of fuel at this stage, but everything seems to be okay, the oil pressure was a bit low on two starboard engines, I wondered if flak had damaged them. I report this to our skipper, keep an eye on it he said. Away back over the Baltic, so different to the way we came. There seemed to be flak coming up from all over the place so we are not out of trouble. We knew there were fighters about as they were dropping flares. Suddenly Ronnie, our rear gunner said corkscrew starboard skip, down we went and I fell, I fell out of my seat and hit my head and was stunned for a bit. Up we came to port as tracer skimmed the side of our aircraft, Ronnie took a pot at the German fighter but I don’t think he hit him. We levelled out at eight thousand feet and we were now in cloud and we stayed in it to dodge the fighter. We came out of the cloud over the Channel, oil pressures on starboard engines were getting too low, so it was decided to land at Woodbridge, just on the border of Suffolk, it had a long runway for situations like ours. We landed at five fifteen am after a horrendous night. I thought that Bomber Harris might well obliterate Bomber Command as well as Berlin! Our aircraft had been damaged by flak, including two engines so it was unserviceable. We were taken by coach back to, was this, this is where we went wrong, this is says Wratting Common but it should be Tuddenham I think. The squadron lost another Lancaster, a total of fifty eight heavy bombers were lost that night, fifty eight, and so ended our first trip, and our last I hoped, to Berlin, the big city as it was called. Our aircraft would be out of service for a week, but we were given a new aircraft that had not been flown on ops. Our wireless operator Charlie Higgins didn’t like the idea as he was terribly superstitious, hence the rabbit’s foot in my pocket. Charlie had to come round to the new aircraft, or leave the crew. He came round to it. Right, now this is the crunch, our thirtieth and final operation, but what a momentous time it has been over the last few months: a lot of airmen have died. Once again we were briefed on 28th of August and we were out at the aircraft when it was cancelled. And so back to the de-clothing area, this was always very stressful and our nerves start to give us trouble by a slight shake and very noticeable when holding a cigarette. The 29th of August 1943 was to be our last trip and hopefully we will return. Briefing was at four pm, we all sat down and then stood up when the Group Captain entered the briefing room at four pm. The door then locked, he stood on the stage and said Captain answer for your crew, and beware if you’re not there, you’re in trouble, anybody not there would be in dead trouble. The curtain pulled back and lo and behold the target was Stettin, on the Baltic, a very long trip and so I’ll have to be very accurate with my petrol calculations. Stettin was a large port and apparently the Germans were bringing men and war weapons back from Norway to put to the war in Russia. The idea was for us to blast the ships in port and anything we saw moving. It was going to be a long night with full petrol tanks and loads of bombs, or, no incendiaries, just bombs. Take off at nine pm. Stettin was partly on the way to Berlin, but a bit further to the west and a somewhat longer trip, we hoped the Germans would think we were going to Berlin and send their fighters there. We went through thick cloud at first, but over Germany it was clear skies and we had to watch out for the German fighters. We got caught in searchlights but the skipper managed to weave and corkscrew out of them. Heavy flak, shrapnel shells hitting our aircraft, we dropped our bombs by the reflection of the water, so there were no Pathfinders for this raid. We managed to leave the area safely and flew into the cloud again where it was pouring with rain, better than being attacked by a night fighter when flying in in clear skies. Sadly our Squadron Commander, Squadron Leader Warner failed to return from this op to Stettin, a total of twenty three Lancasters were lost out of three hundred and fifty on the operation. And now my crew sort of split up for a time here, we went on two week post-operational leave. Now, after, I returned to Scotland after some leave and did several weeks as flight engineer instructor. One day, my friend Jack Ralph, a pilot, came up to me and said as his flight engineer had been injured, by shrapnel I believe, would I be willing to do, to be his flight engineer as he only had four operations to do. Jack was somewhat older then I was at the time as he was thirty and I was still nineteen and he had a lot of experience and had earned the DFC. Without thinking of the possible consequences, I said yes. Being so young I didn’t really see the dangers ahead, anyway that was my decision. Jack’s crew accepted me okay and that was the main thing. My first operational briefing with Jack was on 23rd of September 1943, Mannheim, a big industrial town, well in, that was the usual thing; fifteen Lancasters were lost there, and then Hannover, I think we lost an aircraft there. Turn it off just a moment. At this stage in my tour of operations – thirty two to date - I was becoming decidedly jittery, a nervous twitch perhaps. I felt I was getting to the end of what I could take, nevertheless I never showed this in my behaviour, but it was just that I felt it inwardly, after all I was still only nineteen years old. Us bomber chaps often wrote poetry, some have been published and at this moment I would like to quote one of mine. I found it amongst my papers a few years ago, and it was written by me during my tour of operations in 1943. It might seem a bit naive now but it was how I felt at the time. Viz: “What think you airman when you fly so proudly there in heaven’s sky? Do you exalt in your great might as you go onwards through the night? I think of death beneath my wings, and of the load my bomber brings. My spirit flinches from the thought, that of this carnage may come naught. I pray that soon the day will come when at the rising of the sun that man will offer man his hand and peace prevail throughout the land. I face up to my moments’ task, but three things God, of thee I ask: please help my flesh and mind to stand the strain and protect me Lord this once again. And if this cannot be your plan, give me the strength to die a man.” So that. I wasn’t sleeping too well at this particular time, and I had a sort of of foreboding about the future, it was only one more operation to do, strange how the mind works. On the morning of 18th of November, I woke in the usual way and had breakfast. I went to the aircraft and had a chat with the ground engineers. No problem with the engines, there were full tanks, two thousand one hundred and forty gallons and full bomb load. In fact I worked out that our full weight would be way [emphasis] above what it should be, but it was often like that. No chance of survival if we had engine failure on take off. Briefing was at four pm where we found that the target would be Stettin again, on the Baltic coast, a long hard journey ahead as you would know from above. I had been there before. Stettin was a very important town for Germany because it was the embarking point to Norway. Stettin was heavily defended by guns, searchlights and night fighters. At the briefing we found out that we were to use new tactics by flying low over the North Sea, under German radar with a moonlight night and then to sweep across Denmark and up to the Swedish coast and then down to Stettin, hopefully we were told we would hit Stettin from a different angle and take the Germans by surprise. As we left the briefing Jack said to me let’s hope they are right! Take off at nine pm. Fourteen Lancasters from our squadron would take part. We had our supper in the usual way and collected our rations: chocolate and chewing gum. We then collected our flying clothes, harness and parachute. The padre was there to wish us well and safe return. Well that was something to help me anyway. We were taken to the aircraft in the liberty van, as we called it, would take us in to Newmarket, it took us in to Newmarket when we were not flying. We got ourselves into the aircraft and made sure everything was in order. The skipper and I did what we called pre-flight checks, as nothing was left to chance. A very light was fired from the caravan at the end of the runway for take off. We queued up and then our turn came. Skipper opened up the throttles and then I took over to giving him full power as we were overloaded, we sped down the runway, hoping we would make it into the air-and we did. Skipper pulled the aircraft off the ground and did a circuit of the aerodrome, before speeding off and crossing at Cromer and then over the North Sea. We flew at five hundred feet towards Denmark. As we crossed the Danish coast e-boats were firing at us but fortunately missed. We were now on the way to Stettin, we saw one Lancaster crash into a windmill because it much too low. Before I continue I must mention something about Stettin. This town manufactured consumer goods, including cosmetics. At the end of 1943, there were still six million Germans employed in consumer industries. The Armament Minister, Albert Speer, his efforts to cut back consumer output were repeatedly frustrated by Hitler, personal veto. Eva Braun intervened to block an order banning permanent waves and manufacture of cosmetics. Apparently Hitler was so anxious to maintain living standards. Anyway back to our flight. After leaving Denmark we had to climb to fifteen thousand feet, because we were approaching the Swedish coast and they were neutral as far as war was concerned. We were using our new radar equipment – H2S – so our navigator was able to pick up the town of Stettin. We flew over the southern tip of Sweden and apparently the authorities complained about this to Churchill through the Swedish Embassy. We now flew south and I could see heavy flak ahead so I knew we would be in for a pasting. We could see the Pathfinders were there this time. flares and the Master Bomber was telling us to bomb a certain coloured flares. Suddenly we got caught in two cones of searchlights, but skipper Jack Ralph acted quickly and down we went to starboard and we escaped. But was a close run thing again. Flak was bursting all around. We dropped bombs okay on a mass of flames below us. We left the target area which looked like hell below. After a short time the flak seemed to quieten, so we knew night fighters were in the area. Suddenly a loud shout from rear gunner on the intercom, corkscrew port skipper, and down we went, but unfortunately the Messerschmidt 110 night fighter caught us underneath our aircraft. The tracer bullets through, ripped through the underbelly and caught our port inner engine, which caught fire. We also had a fire in the fuselage, just beyond the mid upper gunner. The hydraulic oil that feeds the turret had spilled into the fuselage and that was what was on fire. The turret in fact became useless. Skipper had brought the aircraft out of the corkscrew and levelled off at about eight thousand feet. The fighter did not follow us down. So, what were our problems at this stage of our flight? A – port inner engine on fire. B – fire in the fuselage. C – what damage had been done underneath us? D – mid upper turret not now working. C, sorry, E – losing height and another three and a half hours to home base. F – outside temperature minus forty degrees centigrade possibly too cold to bale out. G – if we are attacked again no chance of survival on three engines. H – have we enough fuel to get home? So the action we took was this: 1 – my skipper feathered the propeller on the duff engine. He operated the fire extinguisher in the engine fortunately the fire went out. All this has to be done within seconds of course. I attached an oxygen bottle and my mask and took a fire extinguisher with me. I found my way down the fuselage to the fire, which was looking quite fierce, especially everywhere was dark. I connected up my intercom and told skipper what I had found. Should we bale out he said? No, I said I think I can put the fire out – [wry chuckle] I had not brought my parachute with me from my position by the pilot! It was stacked up there. I didn’t think I had any chance of survival if the fuselage broke up anyway. Anyway I played the extinguisher on to the fire but it didn’t all go out. The aircraft was full of smoke but fortunately we all had our masks on and I used my official goggles for my eyes. There was some tarpaulin or something nearby and so I placed it on the fire but some of the flames shot up and I burnt both of my hands. I struggled with the tarpaulin and the fire went out. My hands were very painful though as you can imagine, but I wondered at that time whether the airframe had been weakened by the heat. I told the skipper what I had done and what I had, and that I had painful hands. Thank god you have put it out, he said. I crawled back to my station by the pilot. He was trying to keep the aircraft at eight thousand feet, we were then on three engines. Somehow or another I had to write my log to see how much petrol we had left. The navigator said he would be back at base, we would be back at base in three and three quarter hours, keeping in mind that the aircraft was slower on three engines, but of course only three engines were burning fuel. I worked out that our speed at that time, our height and more propeller revolutions and no more corkscrewing we would have thirty minutes fuel left on landing. My hands were now very painful but there was nothing I could do about it as we had no creams to put on them or water to plunge them in to. I kept thinking to myself, why did I volunteer for another four operations? Well, here we go, back to base. We were at eight thousand feet and flying through thick cloud and it is raining hard, we are all wearing our masks and goggles as there was still a lot of smoke in the aircraft. I wondered if any damage had been done to the aircraft framework. Was it weakened in any way? Best not to be negative, I must be positive about getting us back to base. The skipper was aware of the fuel situation, and kept the engine power to a minimum, keeping in mind that we only had three engines working. After two hours we came out of the thick cloud and all the buffeting, we were now over Holland and we could see lots of flak near the coast, so we needed to avoid that. A big aircraft flew near us and we thought it was another Lancaster, we hoped. Our navigator picked up a couple of towns on the new radar H2S, very useful because we couldn’t see anything below due to haze. I checked the fuel situation but it was difficult writing as my hands were so painful. The navigator told the skipper and myself that with our speed and outside wind we would be at base at about one hour forty five minutes. I began to sweat at that bit of information as it was longer than he had given some time before. Anyway, I worked out my fuel usage and then told my skipper that we had two hours twenty minutes fuel left so we should make it okay if something, if nothing else happened. But fortunately nothing else did happen, we got through the flak on the coast of Holland, and we were now over the North Sea headed for England and hopefully safety. Skipper got in touch with control, with the control on my squadron and told them of our situation. Would the wheels come down? We still didn’t know. Skipper was given emergency landing procedures so we crossed the East Anglian coast. We operated the landing gear and it came down okay and locked itself in the down position. In one hour fifty minutes we were down and so my petrol calculations were spot on. At this stage I was beginning to feel a bit faint what with the pain, considerable stress and smoke. When we landed most of the smoke disappeared. I got out of the aircraft at five thirty am, eight and a half hour flight and sat on the ground, exhausted. Skipper Jack Ralph lit me a cigarette, which was wonderful. Suddenly everything everywhere was quiet except for the singing of birds in some nearby trees, the dawn chorus. Two aircraft failed to return to our squadron out of fourteen at take off. Though later we found out that one aircraft had landed at another aerodrome due to damage to their aircraft. Thirty aircraft failed to return all told. I believe four hundred Lancasters went to Stettin. Jack Ralph’s tour off thirty had ended and I had done a total of thirty four operations. I was still only nineteen. What happened to me next? Once I was returned to base, well, I was then taken to the first aid area and my hands were cleaned. I was then taken to the hospital at Bury St Edmunds where I stayed for two days. My hands were treated there and it was found that the burns were first degree and so I wouldn’t need any skin grafts: that was the best news I could receive. I forget what they did, but I remember my hands being wrapped up with bandages and lint. Within three days I was back on the squadron, where I was put on light duties. The bandages were removed after two weeks and I believe, but my hands were very sore and still a bit painful, but being exposed to the air was going to be helpful. After a few weeks I received a call to see the Station Commander at certain time of day. My memory defeats me, I was a bit nervous about this, but of course I went. The Group Captain asked me about my hands, he said that I had done a wonderful job. Now I was told two wonderful things to cheer me up: first offered a commission in the Royal Air Force,, wow, me, an officer in the RAF. He told me all about it and what I would have to do as my extra duties. Also he said to go and see the Station Adjutant as he would give me all the details about buying my uniform and the money. He said I would have to start a bank account once I was an officer, just think of it, me born in a council house, I left school at fourteen and now I’d become an officer in the RAF. An even greater thrill was that I had been recommended for a decoration, namely the Distinguished Flying Medal, for helping to save the aircraft and enabling the whole crew to get back to England. That was definitely the icing on the cake. My skipper Jack Ralph was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross because he displayed leadership as he was an officer, I was a flight, yes I was a flight sergeant, I had a medal. I would meet up with Jack Ralph again in my career. Within a week I was up in London to buy my clothes. [Unlcear] Well I was informed after a time that they were wanting Stirling crews at Tuddenham, my old base. As you will have read above, I had already done some special duties during my tour and so I jumped at the idea and made an important, an appointment to see our squadron commander. He said I don’t know anything about it. Of course, of course that’s what they always say. Anyway he did check up and found it was true. I got an immediate posting back to my bomber station and I met up with my, part of my old crew, so I joined up with them. While there we got a couple of gunners, rear and mid upper, and a wireless operator. I told Doug and Dick about my adventure into the fire what I did on my last trip. I did some revision on the workings of the Stirling as I had not flow them some time. We also did some circuits and bumps. Early 1944 a briefing was arranged and I believe there were twelve crews all together. We were informed that we would have to do a lot of practice low flying over the Norfolk Flats – no hills anywhere - we were also told that the job would entail flying on moonlit nights and between five hundred and a thousand feet. Of course our particular crew had already done a few of these trips as we had already early in our tour so we knew what to expect. It was clear that D-Day was coming soon and so they wanted us, wanted to get as much more, as much equipment as possible to the resistance people, agents were being dropped in France at night from the Lysander aircraft. We started our flying practice during the day, low flying over the flats of Norfolk. We hoped that Dicks navigation and map reading would be as good as hitherto. Well he seemed to find his way around the flats okay. We did many days of this type of flying. I think they thought we were up there having fun, as for me I would have to get my petrol calculations right as I wouldn’t, it wouldn’t do to have an engine failure at five hundred feet, which is what we were going to have to do. We did low flying over long periods to get it absolutely right at night. The night came for us to do our first mission and operation. It was a full moon and clear sky on 21st of April ’44. The technique for crossing the French coast was to cross at, was to cross at eight thousand or nine thousand feet to avoid a heavily defended coast. When our skipper thought it was safe he descended to about five hundred feet. I must say that we actually went all the way down the French coast, not over Pas de Calais because the Germans were still there, so went down the French coast, round Cherbourg, down to Boulogne. It was just below Boulogne where we crossed. When our skipper thought it was safe, he descended to about five hundred feet so we’re over the coast and down we went. At five hundred feet however, all hell broke loose. There seemed to be a gun firing dead ahead and to our starboard. Skipper flung the aircraft to port and he couldn’t do much because we were so low down; we were hit on the starboard side and underneath. Fortunately the tracer was small calibre so not a lot of damage. But there was a hole in the starboard fuselage and a hole near the skipper’s foot. We think [clock chimes] we were hit underneath too, but we were all okay. To the port side of us we could see a Stirling being hit at very low altitude, maybe about two hundred feet and then crashed, fortunately the crew of that aircraft survived and were taken prisoner. Well we pressed on, very low level, as low as two hundred feet at times, towards the eastern side of France, near Lyon. We followed roads and rivers and contours of the land, we knew that we could easily get lost, and some crews did. We had a good navigator and I did a lot of map reading myself when I wasn’t watching the petrol situation, as I said before. I couldn’t let a tank go dry and an engine stall at two hundred to five hundred feet. Anyway, we arrived at the area and the next thing was to look for a torchlight shone by one of the French Resistance, Maquis. If they were caught by the Germans they were usually tortured for information about others and then shot and of course we would easily have been shot down and too low for parachutes. We found the light after circulating the area. I then went to the back of the aircraft and opened the trap door in the floor. On instructions from the pilot I pushed out the big boxes which were on parachute and as we were at five hundred feet they landed reasonably safely, I hoped. After that we made our way to the coast. That was another difficult part because if we crossed at five hundred feet, we could have been shot up by German e-boats which were all along the coast. Climbing to seven thousand to eight thousand meant that we would be easy prey for German fighter planes, but we did climb to eight thousand feet and got over the coast safely and we arrived at Tuddenham, our base, exactly eight hours later, but the undercarriage wouldn’t come down. We tried all the usual methods, like thumping the solenoid and pulling the wires, but nothing happened. I might have mentioned it earlier, just to say that as the Stirling everything, oh yes I have mentioned it by electricity, in the Lancaster it was hydraulics. The final thing to do was for me to go half way down the fuselage where there was a motor winding gear. I asked the skipper to switch off the undercarriage switch on the dashboard and then I started winding. I knew that if I had to wind it all the way down it would be five hundred and forty turns, phew! Anyway, I wound twelve times and I asked the skipper to trip the switch down and wonderful, the undercarriage started to descend and it went all the way down, and locked. What a nightmare, had it not come down and locked we would have had to belly land. We landed safely and we reported to briefing. We mentioned that a Stirling was shot down; it was reported later that it was David [unclear]. The ground engineers on our aircraft found that the undercarriage gears had been damaged by the coastal gunfire so we were lucky to get the undercarriage down. Well two nights later we were due to go again, when the moon was high, so.
CJ: So Colin, after your ten missions on Special Duties, what happened to you next?
CD: Well, I was an instructor for a time, which I got bored with; you had to have a sprog flight engineer. But by July, er, no, August, August 1944, these V2s and V1s were becoming a bit of menace. And so, they’re clever people, they said these are not operations, cause there are no German fighters about but what we want you to do is take over a sprog engineer to train him, and go behind a Mosquito. The Mosquito went in first, okay, he had this new radar called Oboe, and that was marvellous, picked out different places there, and when he dropped his bombs, the idea was we dropped ours. I think there were about four Lancasters at a time went with this Mosquito, and so that’s what we did. So we did that for, er, some time I think. I’m still on aren’t I? Yes. And then eventually that came to an end and I went back on instructors again. I went up to Leconfield, up in Yorkshire, goodness knows what I went up there for, cause I can’t remember I ever did anything! I came back again anyway, to Mildenhall. I was just really an odd bod, an instructor, that’s what I was and I was called an instructor. Oh, yes, eventually, before I went on to Transport Command, we had a, there were aircraft called a York, it was a passenger aircraft, and they wanted to find out what the centre of gravity was because of all the weight of the luggage and everything else on board. So that was my job, with a senior chap. We had all these, all these Yorks in a hangar, several of them, with the tails out, finding the centre of gravity. I can’t remember what I did now, but we found it and I think that did the job and I was made a flight lieutenant for a time, while I was on, to give me some authority. Wasn’t that nice of them! There we are, that’s what I did. But at the end, right at the end, two weeks before the end I went on Manna from Heaven. And there we are, I’ll show you a picture of that. And what we did, these little food parcels, there was sort of some rubberised, they were very good at doing things like that, I think it was probably Americanised, but rubber stuff and all these sweets, powdered milk, powdered egg and all that was inside each one of those. No parachute or anything like this. We were very low, I think we were two or three hundred feet when we went in, and they were warned to keep away because if one hits you it could knock you out you see. There’s another one coming in, another one back there. This went on for several weeks. It was known that some Germans were firing on the Yorks as they flew over, no Lancasters, we were on Lancasters then, Lancasters. They were firing on the Lancasters and the colonel was warned [emphasis] if you allow that to got on you’ll be up in court, you know. So I think it stopped after. The Dutch have never forgotten it. If you speak to a Dutchman now, they’ll tell you: the RAF did us a good thing. I think I’ve got something here from a Dutchman if you’d like to, hang on, here we are, shall I read it. After the war and after Manna from Heaven food parcels arrived, a letter from a Dutch person. “We shall never forget the nights when your squadrons passed us in the dark on the way to Germany, the mighty noise was like music for us: it told us about happier days to come. Your passing planes kept us believing in coming victory, no matter what we had to endure. We have suffered much but Britain and the RAF did not disappoint us, so we have to thank you and the British nation for our living in peace today.” So there we are, that was nice, wasn’t it. So I think -
CJ: So towards the end of the war Colin, where did you go next?
CD: In August of 1945, we as a crew of five with Jack as a captain, Jack Ralph, joined 51 Squadron at Leconfield, near Minster in Yorkshire. We were to have a period of training there on Stirlings, yes Stirlings, our old wartime friend. The powers that be were so short of passenger aircraft that they took the gun turrets out of the Stirling and put some seats down the length of the aircraft. The whole idea was to bring back servicemen from the Far East, including hopefully, some Japanese prisoners of war who had a dreadful time as prisoners. I think the Stirling had about forty seats, down the length of the fuselage with a galley for food and toilet facilities. The aircraft would fly at about eight thousand feet, no oxygen, and so it would have been quite cold and miserable. I remember saying to myself, that if the Japs don’t kill them, then perhaps the Stirling would. But at least they would be coming home and after the business of the Japanese camps I felt they would put up with anything. There was my crew, there were so many pilots back from Canada after training, and the war was over, and of course missing the war, authorities didn’t know what to do with them. Well many of them were trained as stewards, they didn’t like that really, to look after the passengers, to feed them et cetera and so we had one in our crew, but he wasn’t very happy about it. The time came for us to make our first overseas flight. We took off from Leconfield on 20th of August, and made for Stoney Cross, an airfield near the New Forest in Hampshire. We picked up all sorts of equipment, including a refrigerator which was fitted at the rear for use when we picked up passengers. On 22nd of August we took off for Luqa in Malta, which took seven hours thirty five minutes. On landing we were amazed at the bomb damage, we just wondered how they survived. We took off the next day for Castel Bonita, which was an airfield in Libya, North Africa. The temperature in the sun on arrival was one hundred and nineteen degrees Fahrenheit. [Laugh] Phew! We were able to have a quick look at Tripoli, and we were amazed at the number of ships sunk in the harbour. The ships were bombed when the Germans were there in 1942 ‘43. On the next day we took off for Tel Aviv in Palestine; this took us six hours thirty minutes. I was very impressed by, with Tel Aviv, a wealthy town and populated mostly by Jews from all over Europe. We had time to spend an afternoon on their lovely beach, but we were pestered by beach sellers who tried to sell us anything they thought we would wealth, they thought we were wealthy like the population. At that particular time there were battles going on in Jerusalem, so it was out of bounds to us RAF. Their troubles are still going on today, sadly. I mention above about the wealth in Tel Aviv, being a Jewish town, but just outside there was a village called Tel Avivski which was populated by Arabs, who were growing lemons and oranges. Their homesteads were very poor indeed, and what a contrast to Tel Aviv. The next day we took off for Basra, in Iraq which was very much in the news in recent years. The aerodrome was called Shaibah which was outside Basra. Shaibah was a terribly hot place. It was always between a hundred and twenty degrees Fahrenheit. It had a good population - of flies! The billets were poor and so it was a good thing we were only there one night. Tea had a peculiar taste and the food wasn’t terribly appetising. Have I painted a nice picture I say to myself. I must say that the people were very friendly and of course this was 1945 and maybe they aren’t so friendly today. Any airman ground staff could only stay in Shaibah a maximum of six months of the year because after some of them started to go mental called Shaibah blues. As flight engineer I had to supervise the refuelling of our aircraft. They used what they called a bowser and we just hoped it was filled with a hundred octane fuel to give us plenty of lift and power. At least we could get cold beer in the officers mess, just like in Ice Cold in Alex. The next day, 24th, we took off for Karachi. The badge I have on my, on my coat that I had on just now was bought in Karachi, in Pakistan although in 1945 fortunately it was still in India. The aerodrome was called Meri, Moripoor, this aerodrome was quite modern compared to Shaibah. We would be there for two days and so we had the opportunity to visit Karachi. I quite liked this town, but like all Indian town it was full of markets selling just about everything. Of course you never paid the price they asked and so quite a bit of time was spent bargaining with the vendor but he made you comfortable by giving you something soft to sit on then bring you a glass of coca cola which fell apart, no sarsaparilla, sorry, a coco cola or a glass of sarsaparilla, not so nice. I remember buying a pair of shoes which fell apart in a few days and an Indian wool rug which was very nice, I sold it at home for a good profit. The main street in Karachi was called Elphinstone Street, named after Lord Elphinstone who lived in Hastings and there’s a street named after him there too! This was the end of our first flight abroad which took us four days. On 27th of August we flew back to Stoney Cross, many passengers, mainly army personnel and they didn’t like the cold in the Stirling after being in a hot country, still I am sure they were pleased to get home at last. When we arrived back at Stoney Cross we found that we had been posted to Stradishall in Suffolk. This was, and still is, a pre-war RAF station and so at least we had food, accommodation and a batman. The batman, I had was shared with two officers in separate rooms. It was jolly good because he did lots of jobs for us, cleaning our shoes, looking after our laundry and making sure we had everything we wanted. The real benefits of being an officer! The downside was that we had to do Orderly Officer duties from time to time. One of the duties, one of the duties was checking on the food in the general mess. As I went on the Sergeant of the Day which called out ‘any complaints,’ usually there was silence but on one occasion one of the erks said, I have been given very little meat, sir. It looked very small so I got the cooks to give him another slice of meat. I think the erk had eaten quite a bit before I got it, got there. Of course the Orderly Officer was actually in charge of the RAF station when the Group Captain was away at night time too. So it was quite a responsible job if anything went wrong at the station. We had parties there, with plenty of girlfriends, lots of fun with booze. I think we’ll leave it at that now.
CJ: So on these long trips Colin, with Transport Command did you meet any interesting people?
CD: Well one of the people I did meet was at Cairo. We stopped at a hotel called the Heliopolis, Heliopolis Palace and I think we were on the third floor. Now, King Farouk, he somehow or other he didn’t like the British, I don’t know why, I don’t know why. But he would, you would see him belting through the streets in the middle of two guards in a jeep type of vehicle, you know and be crouched in there. We actually met him actually, at a reception at Helioplolis Palace and he sort of didn’t want to really say too much to us, us chaps chaps. He wasn’t a good leader, he liked pornography, he had loads of pornography, you wouldn’t believe it, stuff he had. Well eventually he was ousted of course, wasn’t he. I think it was Nasser came in after him, wasn’t it. He was dead scared of travelling around, he thought he’d be shot any moment, you know, they didn’t like him. So that’s King Farouk, I’ve met a king, okay.
CJ: So when did you leave the RAF Colin? And what did you do after that?
CD: Well I was there during that very cold winter and it soon after that actually. By May, May 1947, May 1947 I said farewell to my friends at Lyneham, I took the train to Preston in Lancashire and that was my demob station, okay. So I came out and there I am, and that’s what, various documents including identity card, ration book and some money, so that’s what I got for putting my life on the line. But still, it was better than nothing. I’ve now signed off from the RAF and I was given a sort of dowry, but I can’t remember how much it was, but I don’t think I was terribly rich. I came back to London to stay with my, an aunt for a time. I stayed at, I stayed with my grandmother in Beckenham. She had a son that was employed at the Standard Bank of South Africa and I was very friendly with him, because he played cricket and all that, in his job, and he said how about getting into shipping, the Union Castle Line near me, where I am, I know they’re looking for young men. I said yeah, that sounds interesting to me, shipping, well I don’t want to fly again and, and that’s what he did. I went up for an interview and I got the job. I think it was about two hundred and fifty pounds a year. [Laugh] I thought you see, I could train perhaps as a purser eventually and I wouldn’t mind going out to South Africa and stay out there for a bit as I was single, as easy as it was then. So that’s what I did and I started 15th May I think it was, 15th of May. First up yes, I would be employed in an office down, oh I was employed in an office down in the East India Docks for a time, Blackwall, yes, at a salary of two hundred and fifty pounds per annum. I bought a month’s season ticket on the Southern Railway at the cost of one pound fourteen shillings and that would take me from Elmer’s End to Beckenham or Cannon Street in the city. I used it seven days a week, I used it at weekends. Arrived at the office on the first day at nine fifteen am and met up with the manager at the docks office. Really old buildings, it’s real east, sorry about that, just chuck it aside, sorry. Yes, it was very, sort of worn out buildings there, everything was sort of archaic really, you know. Big, it had a big shelf to write on. And a stool. And if you’ve ever seen any Charles Dickens films, just like that really. Goes back to those days you see.
CJ: And what was your job there?
CD: Just as a clerk, to start with, just as a clerk, did a lot of writing, oh and I got the job of going down to the docks to meet the ships, with a senior man first, but then eventually I went down myself, to the West India Dock, King George the Fifth Dock, Queen Victoria Dock in London, don’t exist any more of course, and Southampton went down to Southampton. Yes. That was the most interesting part of being with the Union Castle actually, going down to the ships, so I enjoyed that. Now eventually we were hearing rumours you see, that oh they united with the Clan Line, that would have been a few years after and eventually we could see that the end of the line was coming because people were flying to South Africa and East Africa. We didn’t have an empire any more, you know, Uganda, Tanganyika and all these of places, so I decided I think I’d better change; I had two young daughters at the time and I thought I’d better think about changing. So I got a job with Beecham Research Laboratories in their offices. I did a few jobs outside in hospitals and took on that job, in Kent, that’s why I’m down here. I used to visit the consultants, so that was interesting. Yeah.
CJ: So after the war did you manage to keep in touch with any of your old crew?
CD: Yes I did. I was the secretary, we used to have reunions up at Tuddenham, Tuddenham and there’s a building there that we used to use, it was more convenient than Mildenhall really, although we used to go to Mildenhall. But I was the secretary, so I did the newsletters, it was great and yes, I was given a glass bowl at the end which is upstairs. And curiously those eventually died off and that’s very sad.
CJ: How do you feel Bomber Command veterans were treated after the war, for example by the government?
CD: We were treated very badly. We were treated very badly. Churchill never thanked us, he thanked every other, every other side of the war, Army, Navy, Coastal Command, but not Bomber Command, Fighter Command, but not Bomber Command, never Bomber Command, and yet he was the one that said early part of the war we will bomb every town in Germany and make them pay for what they’re doing to us. That’s what he said, you know, and that’s wanted us to do. But it all came to a head with Dresden, didn’t it. And of course that wasn’t Bomber Harris’ idea at all, he didn’t want to do it because it was too far for his crews, it’s really the Russian general out there. He, he told Eisenhower that the town was full of German troops and weapons, you see. And he said would you, could Bomber Command bomb the place. Eisenhower got on to Churchill and Churchill got on to Bomber Harris and Bomber Harris said well it’s just too far for my troops, I don’t want to do it. You’ve got the order to do it, you must find a way of doing it, so that they get there and back. That’s, you know, that’s the sort of attitude he had you see. So, it came about and of course it was found that it was mainly full of refugees rather than troops, so you know, but that’s the one, if you mention Bomber Command, that’s what people mention. What about Dresden, you know. But it’s no different to any other town, what about towns in England? And if he’d had his way V2s would have obliterated London completely. So yes, I don’t think we, it’s only since we’ve had the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park that things have softened quite a bit now. People, when they hear I’ve been in Bomber Command are quite impressed, you know cause there’s not many of us about are there. So I think the attitude has changed a bit, but I was a great admirer of Churchill you know, during the war, he gave us that feeling of we were going to win, that’s what we wanted really, someone behind us, but he never stayed on at the end. I could never understand why really, never understood why. The Queen Mother always supported us and I went to the, the church in the Strand, what’s the name of that church in the Strand, I can’t remember it, anyway it’s the RAF, it’s the RAF church and it was Bomber Harris’ monument that was being built there, next to Dowding, the two of them there you see. And you wouldn’t believe it, all these layabouts were shouting at us: murderers. The Queen Mother she always supported us and said take no notice of them, I was standing right next to her, actually, take no notice of them. One chap there had got his uniform on, had red, red paint thrown over him you know, that’s how we were treated. Yeah. It was pretty grim really. And the police didn’t do much about it really, they’re just yobs he says, what can you do?
CJ: But on the other hand I gather you’ve been honoured by the French.
CD: Yes, absolutely. I have also at our do on Tuesday night I said I want to send a toast to the President of France, President Macron. So I don’t know if he ever got the message but I you’ve read the letter, yes.
CJ: This is the letter that confirms that you’ve been made a Chevalier of the Legion d’Honeur.
CD: That’s right, Nationale, Legion d’Honeur. First introduced by Napoleon in 1802 and used extensively during the Battle of Waterloo, 1815. He used it for his highest gallantry award. So whether it’s still used as a high gallantry award I don’t know. It wasn’t used in the second world war because they gave in you see right at the start. But it was used in the First World War, yeah.
CJ: So what else keeps you busy nowadays?
CD: The garden! Try to. Well I belong to Probus. I belong to, I’m the honorary president, honorary president of the Royal British Legion, in Tenterden. Church too, I go to church so I made lots and lots of friends there. We have different little dos from time to time. I go to the day centre here on a Tuesday, that’s tomorrow. They come and pick me up, they have lunch there.
CJ: You’re living in Tenterden and there’s a heritage railway I think you had some involvement.
CD: Oh Kent and East Sussex Railway! Oh yes! I’d forgotten about that. In 1967, we came to live here in 1966 you see, and in 1967 well we heard that there was a railway coming along, didn’t know much about it then, down station road, so we thought we’d go and have a look and they had a couple of little engines down there, one was called Hastings and there was another one down there as well. And I went to the meeting, they had meetings to try to get the railway started somehow. Oh, the rows that went on! You know, between the secretary and the president, and the chairman, had different views from each other, you know. They were told: if you don’t get your act together you’ll never run a railway. Of course you wouldn’t, not like that. But eventually it all settled down but interesting meetings. I’ve still got [unclear[, upstairs, amazing!
CJ: You were volunteering on the railway, you were helping?
CD: Yes, I did a signals course in 1968 I think, ‘69 something like that, ‘69, nothing like what they do today, it’s much more. But then they said we really need somebody in the booking office to get it started, so course I’m married, two children, you can’t spend too much time. Anyway, I took it on. I ordered these little tickets, cardboard tickets as you push in the machine: boom boom. It puts the date on it, you know, that’s what it was. Quite cheap as well. At that stage, 1974 it opened, 1974. Bill Deedes came down, he opened it. Just went as far as Rolvenden, that’s as far as we could get. It took another two or three years to get to Wittersham Road. Ted Heath, oh yeah, he came and opened it, Ted Heath, yeah, and to Bodiam and Northiam, so it took many many years, it was quite a few years after. Opened in 1974, about ‘88 something like that I think, it got to Bodiam. The Lottery I think paid for it, paid for part of that between Northiam and Bodiam. But they were always short of money, you know, no matter what. A new boiler costs at least ten thousand pounds you see, for an engine, everything is so costly now, I’m afraid. So that was my job. So I did do things, I didn’t just sit at home doing nothing!
CJ: Well, you’ve certainly led an interesting life, Colin, and thanks very much for talking to us today.
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Interview with Colin Deverell
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2019-07-22
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01:38:13 audio recording
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Colin Deverell was born in Croydon. Upon leaving school, he worked for Oliver Typewriter Company, where he gained engineering skills to become an amateur rigger for Imperial Airways, before finding employment with Rollaston Aircraft Services in 1939. His mother was killed in a bombing on Christmas Day 1940, motivating him to join the Royal Air Force in 1941 and train as a flight engineer. Deverell completed thirty operations based at RAF Wratting Common and RAF Tuddenham. He details the engineering differences between Stirlings and Lancasters and recollects the events of operations to Kiel, Lorient, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, Peenemünde, Berlin, and Szczecin. He then completed a further four operations, filling in for a crew with an injured flight engineer. On his thirty-fourth operation to Szczecin, they were attacked and he burnt his hands extinguishing a fire on board. By 19, Deverell was promoted to flight lieutenant and awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. In 1944, he undertook ten special operations that required low-flying to release boxes of equipment according to light signals from the French Resistance. In 1945, he took part in Operation Manna, before joining 51 Squadron to return servicemen from the Far East on converted Stirlings. Finally, he recalls his career following demobilisation in 1947, the treatment of Bomber Command, and attending reunions at Tuddenham. As the Honorary President of the Royal British Legion in his hometown of Tenterden, Deverell has also been awarded the Legion d’Honneur.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Anne-Marie Watson
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Croydon
England--Suffolk
France
France--Lorient
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Stuttgart
Poland
Poland--Szczecin
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940-07-10
1940-08-15
1940-12-25
1941
1942
1943-06-27
1943-08-17
1943-08-23
1943-08-29
1943-09-23
1944
1945-08
1946
1947-05
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
51 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
H2S
Lancaster
Me 110
Mosquito
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Wratting Common
recruitment
Resistance
searchlight
Stirling
V-1
V-2
V-weapon