2
25
10926
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2655/46481/SKeelingRV82689v10018.1.jpg
08eb278b065db8031248b546264b43ba
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Keeling, Robert Victor. Scrapbook
Description
An account of the resource
41 items. A scrapbook of photographs and clippings concerning Robert Keeling's service, as a pilot for aerial photographs, and royal visits.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-06-01
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Keeling, RV
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Left page: from top, descriptions of the Magister, Anson and Whitley aircraft, annotated 'RAF aircraft in which Bob did his training'.
Whitley aircraft, B-DY, C-DY and E-DY, flying in formation; bottom, crashed Whitley MH-H, annotated 'Usworth 17 11 40' and 'Sketch by Bob of the end of a bombing trip over Germany. It was an emergency landing at a fighter station and the Whitley overran the runway and broke its back on a bomb dump. Bob was 'Second Joe' (pilot)'.
Right page: top, targets in Mannheim.
Bottom, a group of 60 uniformed men standing in front of a Whitley aircraft annotated '51 Sqd 16.12.40. Bob is 6th from the left'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-12-19
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-11-17
1940-12-16
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
Germany
Germany--Mannheim
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Artwork
Format
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Three magazine cuttings, two newspaper cuttings, one sketch and one b/w photograph on two album pages
Identifier
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SKeelingRV82689v10018;
Title
A name given to the resource
Bob's aircraft
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
51 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
arts and crafts
bomb dump
bombing
crash
incendiary device
Magister
pilot
RAF Usworth
target photograph
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2655/46478/SKeelingRV82689v10016.1.jpg
ea7eddc0ccf63fec7c321213544c5444
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2655/46478/SKeelingRV82689v10017.1.jpg
b6eb72b0666e5d32421af74f43b16e62
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Keeling, Robert Victor. Scrapbook
Description
An account of the resource
41 items. A scrapbook of photographs and clippings concerning Robert Keeling's service, as a pilot for aerial photographs, and royal visits.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-06-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Keeling, RV
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Italiani!
Description
An account of the resource
Left page: top, congratulations to Mr and Mrs Keeling on their wedding.
Bottom, Stanley sending love and best wishes.
Right page: propaganda leaflets dropped in Italy and Germany, annotated 'war time propaganda leaflets released by the R.A.F.'.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Warwickshire
England--Birmingham
Italy
Germany
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
ita
deu
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
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Three telegrams and three printed leaflets on two album pages
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription. Other languages than English
Identifier
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SKeelingRV82689v100016; SKeelingRV82689v10017
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
love and romance
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46474/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v670002.mp3
dc330a19486127faee58285311c26dbe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage in his home in Stamford.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And Bertie served a good long time in the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And so, to start. I understand Bertie that your first encounter with the RAF was when you joined up. Was it 1939?
BS: 1939. On October the 6th 1939. And —
Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, you know, did you that was at the beginning of the Second World War.
BS: Well, it was. The war had broken out early September and it was a Sunday afternoon and we were home and the air raid siren went off for the first time. We were all sitting down to Sunday dinner in Southend on Sea where I —
Interviewer: This is the famous first day of the war.
BS: Yes, it was. The first day of the war. Then of course we all rushed outside. Of course nothing happened, you know. It was, it was just a false alarm. But anyway, I had received notification that I had passed the RAF exam as an aircraft apprentice to go to Cranwell and so I then received information in early September that I was to report to Cranwell on the 6th of October 1939. So this was, this duly happened. I went to Cranwell. I was inducted as an aircraft apprentice at RAF Cranwell. The instrument maker apprentices and the wires and electrical mechanic apprentices were being trained at Cranwell at the time. The other trades were being trained at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. So they were the two schools really and also some at Cosford. They were boy entrants. Anway, so it was quite a fierce trades really from the comforts of home to the, to the spartan conditions of the RAF as it then was in 1939. We were in huge barrack blocks at Cranwell where they had forty to a room you know. Iron bedsteads left over from the Great War I think [laughs] and very very far, very strong discipline you know. Very firm discipline which it had to be for young boys I suppose just joining the Air Force but I settled down and we did basic training on the square. Just for a few weeks you know. Two or three weeks basic training and drill and all that sort of thing. Learned to keep ourselves neat and tidy, our uniforms. To keep the barrack rooms clean and everything else. And of course, it was very very tough the discipline but you know some, in some respects you appreciated it. I enjoyed it really. Well, then we settled in on our technical training. We used to march down to the workshops every day at Cranwell and this went on and on and the, the one thing I do remember is that going over into 1940 just about the time of just before Dunkirk when the Germans had invaded the low countries we used to march to the workshops every day and during that early period when the Germans were still invading France they used to play patriotic music over the tannoy system as we were marching to work. Such things as, “We’re Going to Hang out the Washing on the Siegfried Line.” [laughs] And of course that didn’t ever happen. Things like that you know. It was quite an amazing time to go through really at that period leading up to Dunkirk. Anyway, so the training went on. I found it very interesting. The technical training. All the aircraft. The aircraft electrical instrument systems and all that you know and also quite a lot of electrical information. Electrical instruction as well because a lot of instruments were, you know operated by electricity or electrical systems and you know so that went on sort of quite happily. And then in 1940 around about August time the instrument maker schools was moved out to Halton with the apprentices of the other trades. RAF Halton. It was a wonderful change because Halton is a lovely part of the country you know in Buckinghamshire whereas Cranwell was —
Interviewer: Flat.
BS: We didn’t like it very much up there. Dismal sort of area there. So we got to Halton and but, but in the interim period sort of you know we had a month’s leave actually. Four weeks leave in the changeover between going from Cranwell to Halton and I went home to Southend on Sea and I watched lots of the Battle of Britain going on with all the aerodrome above us coming up the Thames Estuary and we had a grandstand view really, Southend unfortunately.
Interviewer: And what was the feeling like in the country at that time?
BS: Very patriotic. Very patriotic. Yeah.
Interviewer: And was there a, you know a real fear of invasion at that stage?
BS: Well, there was a fear of, well there was but somehow we used to have the feeling it can’t happen to us. You know that sort of British feeling that —
Interviewer: Stiff upper lip and all that.
BS: Stiff upper lip and all that. Oh yes. There was the fear but it was, it was a defiance really. No one is bloody going to invade us sort of thing, you know. But of course, we were right on the, down at Southend where my old home was that was right on the sort of, you know if they had invaded it would be one of the first places that they would come in through I would have thought.
Interviewer: What was the news reporting? Was it, was, did you hear what was going on?
BS: Oh yes. Oh, the news reporting was very good. We, we knew all the time what was going on. I saw quite a few battles when I was, that month I was home. I saw quite a few aerial dogfights you know but one minute they were there and then they were gone you know. It was that —
Interviewer: Very fleeting.
BS: Very fleeting you know. Basically your question. I went through. I went and got in to the autumn of 1940 when they started the bombing on London. We used to get home occasionally on a forty eight hour pass. I went through London, through a couple of Blitzes you know and quite often I had to take shelter in the deep air raid, deep underground stations that they’d allocated to be air raids sort of shelters for people. So I experienced that and there were terrible scenes I saw you know before going on to Halton. So, that was, that was something to remember really, you know. So anyway, we, we continued our training at Halton which was, you know, very good. And then I actually because of the war they forced short the apprentice —
Interviewer: Training.
BS: Training from three years to well, less than two years.
Interviewer: Yes, I was going to say I was surprised.
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: That you were —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: That you spend time in training.
BS: Yes. So, I passed, I passed out actually in July 1941 and I wasn’t eighteen. I was still only seventeen. I passed out and our training wasn’t complete but they considered we had been trained sufficiently to be able to take part. We’d learn more as we went along.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Having joined a squadron.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You see.
Interviewer: Learning on the job.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So, nineteen, I was in the, when I was left Halton I was posted to RAF Marham in Norfolk to 218 Squadron. There were two squadrons there. The Wellington squadron. Wellingtons. 115 and 218 but Wellingtons. Basically, Wellington bombers and I always remember in the train going from, up from Halton to, to Marham it was a lovely sunny day in July we heard for the first time the subject about the Russians. The Germans invading Russia. That was the first time we had heard that Russia had come into the war you see. And so we got to, got to Marham and of course straightway I was pitchforked on to the squadron and it was very interesting you know being inducted into servicing the Wellingtons. We used to have to also apart from looking after all the instrument systems, instrument repairs and replacement we had also responsibility for the navigation system as well you know because it was astral navigation in those days you know and also the oxygen system. So we had to, in those days you had to physically change the oxygen bottles after every trip, you know. Quite a lot of bottles too. That was quite a job. So that’s one of my little jobs I had to do. But one of the funny things was that the aircraft apart from dropping bombs they used to drop leaflets over Germany. I still have a sample. And also fake ration cards so the Germans would probably pick up these fake ration cards to help deplete the German rations you see. I’ve still got one of those somewhere. Anyway, so that was that but the basic thing I’ll always remember is that of course in those days bombing was, at the time we thought it was very effective but it was not very effective. There was an awful lot of missed targets.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: An awful lot of mixed targets.
Interviewer: Area bombing. Yeah.
BS: That’s right, and but the sad thing was you know the aircrew used to come out and used to get the captains of a bomber was only about nineteen or twenty you know. The responsibility that the lads took on then in those days was quite, it really was quite [pause] but I thinking back on it now I hardly ever saw any sign of fear. They were laughing and joking. They used to wee on the wheels for good luck and things like that you know. And the old air gunners would let off the guns into the night sky just to check on them you know in the turrets. You know and, but they always seemed to set off in a very good mood. But of course, when they didn’t come back or came back badly damaged you know often with blood. On one occasion I remember the, one came back and the rear turret was just a mass of blood and gore.
Interviewer: Yes, I heard somebody else says that.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the damage that the, that the Wellington could take with geodetic construction was quite amazing really. Old Barnes Wallis had designed them very well indeed you know. And then once, I’d been there a few weeks when the film people came to take a, they made a film called, “One of Our Aircraft is missing.” And they came to shoot at the early stages of the aircraft taking off from our, they came around to our dispersal and they took photos of us ground crew waving to the aircraft as they took off in to the night sky on their bombing missions.
Interviewer: Did they? So that was just done for the camera was it?
BS: that was done for the camera really you know. And I did see and I did have a copy afterwards that I actually saw the back of me and three others just waving like mad to the aircraft that took off into the night sky. But it was a very very very poignant really. They take off into the dusk you know. Disappear. Of course, all grass airfields then. There was no runways. No runways. They were all grass airfields. And so which was quite an embarrassment really later on because in the Autumn of 1941 we converted to Stirlings. We were the second squadron to be, I’ll just get this for you [pause] to be converted to, sorry to be converted to Stirlings.
Interviewer: Oh, I think I’ve seen this photograph before. Yes.
BS: Yes. It’s a special. There was only a few copies made.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: That’s one of the few.
Interviewer: A nice looking aeroplane.
BS: Yes. But very heavy. Very big. Much bigger than the Lanc you know. They carried a bigger bomb load. But of course, the trouble with the Stirling was that the Hercules engines didn’t have the power really to get them over the Alps and they had to struggle like hell to get over to bomb Northern Italy as they used to go and bomb Turin quite a lot. But they used to struggle to get over the Alps and I think they realised that they were built like a tank. Like a fortress inside. But they just didn’t have the power really and I think actually when it came into about 1943 they were actually taken off full line bombing and became towers for the gliders and things like that.
Interviewer: It's a shame because everybody now looks back and thinks —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: The Lancaster was the only bomber.
BS: Oh no. No. The Stirling was she was ever she was very good in every respect bar the fact she was underpowered. But I’ve flown in a Stirling and I’ve flown, I had to get every chance I could. Air testing, you know. Those I used to fly. I’ve flown I a Stirling. I’ve flown quite a few times in Wellingtons. You know, on the air tests. I used to like to sit in the rear turrets. Quite fun. And you know so I got one for experience really and the, and another snag with the Stirling was that it was the first aircraft that ever had the electrical undercarriage. And old DC motors they requires three thick cables to really get the power through and it was quite a thing to see a Stirling with one wheel collapsed and like this on the airfield. Like you know and had to jack them up to —
Interviewer: I wonder why they went for electric motors rather than —
BS: I don’t know.
Interviewer: Metal damage to cope with if the hydraulics had been —
BS: I think so. I think it was an experiment really you know. They were coming in to a new era and you know so, you know I think they—
Interviewer: A bit embarrassing if you have a generator failure.
BS: Oh yes. And of course, they realised being as these were such big heavy aircraft that the grass airfield was not very good at all. You know, they used to —
Interviewer: They used to get waterlogged, didn’t they?
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Some of these old grassed airfields.
BS: Yeah. So soon after that that, I left the country by then that they decided to build runways you see. So, you know I, people say to me oh there’s the lady who I’m very good friends with at the moment. She’s quite a bit younger than me but if I talk about the olden days she doesn’t want to know. ‘Oh, don’t talk about the past.’ The past. But you get to my age you think about it. It’s life to you, you know what I mean?
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: My memory is still so fantastically good really, you know. Way back to those days it’s as clear as a bell really.
Interviewer: And didn’t you tell me that you remember Trenchard coming?
BS: Oh sorry. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: He lived up to his Boom Trenchard.
BS: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Trenchard. Big man.
BS: When the, I hadn’t been at Marham very long, perhaps, are we still oh dear. I hadn’t been at Marham very long when it was a bit of a miserable sort of day and of course we were working in the hangars and they used to say, ‘Come on. Get outside.’ You know. Assembled on the tarmac outside the hangars because there’s going to be someone giving a talk. So we went outside and stood in a big sort of circle. And suddenly this figure appeared and he was introduced as to Lord Trenchard you see and there he was in his uniform and his rather flat sort of hat. It wasn’t, a bit of a squashed looking hat on his head and he gave us a pep talk you see about how, what a wonderful job we were doing. To keep up, lads, you know. You know, sort of you know and we’ve got the Germans on the run [laughs] you know [laughs] We bloody well hadn’t at that time.
Interviewer: So you took it with a pinch of salt.
BS: Oh yes. I stood quite close to him actually. He had a moustache if I remember rightly.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: But we weren’t told of course at the time it hadn’t really perhaps got around to me by then but we were told that he was the father of the Royal Air Force.
Interviewer: Absolutely.
BS: So it was a privilege to remember that, you see.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And the thing that they say about Trenchard was that when forming the Air Force one of the things he really concentrated on was very good training.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: To make sure not just the air crew but —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To make sure that the ground crew had got all the skills.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Which is what, which is quite interesting that you —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did spend quite a good time in training even though it was in the Second World War.
BS: Oh absolutely. Oh yes. And something else I was going to say. I’ve forgotten. Oh, dear its gone from me.
Interviewer: And when the Air Force —
BS: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. He was, was the founder of the Aircraft Apprentice Scheme in 1923. He started it all up at Halton and it’s a wonderful training you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: As a boy of sixteen, just sixteen to be pitchforked from home into that, you know. The sheer discipline and we learned to look after ourselves. Do our own —
Interviewer: Sewing.
BS: Sewing and —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And keeping our barrack rooms clean. Kit inspection once a week. Everything had to be absolutely spot on, you know. The officer used to come around with the —
Interviewer: And the aircraft apprentices have got a very good reunion and —
BS: Oh well, yes. The Halton Apprentices Association. In fact, I’ve got a book there written by an air vice marshall. Ex-aircraft apprentice who used to, we used to see him actually in our reunions down at Halton and it’s about the life of an aircraft apprentice. I’ll get it out some time and show you.
Interviewer: And the good thing is —
BS: I’ll look it up.
Interviewer: And the interesting thing is how many formal aircraft apprentices made air rank —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Very senior ranks.
BS: They did. They did. Apart from the technical training which you of course enlarged. I mean, by the time I finished at the RAF I was very highly qualified. Instruments, electronically and everything else. You know, all the courses I went on and all that work on the V bombers. So, you know, it was, it was the sheer sort of discipline that that regulated your life and you know —
Interviewer: A good start.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: A good start. And did you say you’d, I think you just said you were just saying that you were moving on from Marham. How long did you spend there?
BS: So I was at Marham from July ‘til March ’41.
Interviewer: And then what was next?
BS: Then what happened then was I’ll tell you a funny little story. Can I just recap a bit but when, when I passed out from Halton and I went to Marham and when I went home of course we used to get forty eight passes at any time. Not just at weekends. In the middle of the week or any time. Forty eight hour pass.
Interviewer: When you could be spared.
BS: When you could be spared.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And my father who was a very very patriotic man. My father served right through the first war in the Royal Artillery, through all the modern hell of Passchendaele. You couldn’t meet a more patriotic man. King and country man everything. The fact I went in the the Air Force absolutely wonderful to him you know. Anyway, I went home on my first leave you see. And , ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Where’s your propellers on your arms?’ He thought I was going to be a leading aircraftsman straight away. Of course, I passed out as AC1 not AC2 [laughs] you see. I didn’t get quite the response then, you know. So, so that was that. So that was a funny story really going back. Yes, so what happened then was in March, early March ’42 I was posted overseas. You never knew where you were going abroad in the wartime. You never knew where you were going but overseas. So I went home on embarkation leave for a fortnight. When I got home my mother said, Southend on Sea, my mother said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Dad’s in hospital, ill. Oh, he’s got congestion of the lungs.’ So I went down to see him. He was very poorly in hospital at Rochford in Essex and anyway within a couple of days he had died.
Interviewer: Oh, that’s —
BS: While I was on embarkation leave. Of course, I had two sisters at home and so that was a blow. So I got a weeks extension you know for his funeral. We buried him down in, we got him buried. And so I I left home, my mother and sisters and went back to Marham to clear and went to [pause] first of all we went, I was sent up to Blackpool. Blackpool was what you called a personnel distribution centre for people going over. PDC they called it. And —
Interviewer: Was that Squire’s Gate?
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: Actually at Blackpool.
BS: That was, we were in civvy billets in Bloomfield Road opposite the football ground. Well they were all civvy billets in those days you see.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: And the nice house, a very nice house we were in. Anyway, we were there for a fortnight and in that time we were all kitted out for overseas. You had an idea perhaps where you were going in those days the sort of kit you got really and we were kitted out at Marks and Spencer’s and Woolworths were military kitting out places you see.
Interviewer: Fantastic.
BS: So we had to barter around Blackpool from one to the other being kitted out and straightaway we knew we weren’t going to India because we didn’t get a pith helmet. The pith helmet. They had the pith helmets to go into India you see. We had the old fashioned [taupes?] that they used in the sort of semi-tropical countries you know like Africa and places like that. So I had a [taupe?] I had all the rest of the khaki drill issued and then we set off. After a fortnight we were what they called drafts in those days. Then we set off by train. Took us all day in the train. Of course, no sort, they had no sort of corridor trains. They were all bloody single compartments.
Interviewer: Separate compartments. Yeah.
BS: And we finished up. Where the hell are we going to? We finished up it turned out in Avonmouth in Bristol.
Interviewer: And you still don’t know where you’re going.
BS: No. Not a clue. Not a clue. No. No. They wouldn’t tell you. So we’d not a clue. We got to Avonmouth. We offloaded from the train at the dockside and there was this big old grey steamer there for troops. She had been called the Island Princess. She had been a Argentine meat boat apparently which had been converted to a trooper. Troop carrier. So we staggered up the gangplank. Don’t know how I staggered up with kit bags. Full blooming kitted on. Your [taupe] Great coat. All the rest of our equipment. We staggered up the gangplank on to the, and straight down the gangways right down to a lower deck. One of the holds had been converted into a troop deck you see. Got down there and we were the last line of portholes going down. The Army were underneath. They didn’t have any portholes. We had the Army on board as well. And there were two hundred of us on the troop deck and we were all sleeping on hammocks and we had sort of mess tables going from the centre out to the sides of the ship you see where we allocated so many to a mess table each you see. About I don’t know about ten or twelve. Something like that. And hammocks had to be stowed in special stowage and your ordinary kit was on racks above you. So, so that was something getting used to and when we came had to sleep at night we we hung our hammocks up you know and when we all slung our hammocks we were sort of more or less touching one another you know. You always had to sleep head to toe for obvious reasons and if anybody was seasick in the night God it was hell.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Bloody awful.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You can imagine.
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate it. I did I did three years in the Navy and —
BS: Oh, did you?
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate what it could have been like.
BS: So, so anyway so that was the old troopship and, but I got used it. Actually, I enjoyed it. Anyway, we sailed out in the and we sailed out to Greenock, picked up the rest of the convoy at Greenock and we stayed there overnight and —
Interviewer: But when the ship sailed did you still not know where the ship was going?
BS: No. Not a clue. We hadn’t got a clue. No.
Interviewer: That’s incredible.
BS: Well, I hadn’t got a clue and we sailed up the Irish Sea to Greenock and there we picked up the rest of the convoy. We sailed next day. There was ships from horizon to horizon.
Interviewer: So also and when was this?
BS: This was the end of March ’42. The height of the U-boat war.
Interviewer: Wow.
BS: The height of the U-boat war and, and there were sort of Naval vessels sort of you know going around all the time but of course the convoy had to go to the speed of the slowest ship. Eight knots. That was, that was the and we were kept one in front and one behind, you know, liners. Troopers. All grey and horizon to horizon and it was just ships everywhere. And of course, I never even gave a thought to blooming U-boats. I can remember standing on the bloody bow in the heaving North Atlantic enjoying it. Isn’t this wonderful. I never gave a thought we could bloody well be torpedoed at any time, you know. Its youth you see. Nothing can happen to me.
Interviewer: No.
BS: So anyway, so we kept going day after day after day and getting colder and colder. We were going, we thought we were going a bit north. Anyway, eventually we, we changed course and fortunately you know we saw a couple of Condors came over but, but no we didn’t, nobody was attacked at that time. Or at least after we changed direction of course I knew we were going south and eventually after about a couple of weeks or more, two and a half weeks we landed up in Freetown in Sierra Leone and we anchored there for a couple of days. And I can remember the old [unclear] coming alongside with the natives in them wanting to sell —
Interviewer: Sell things. Yeah.
BS: Including their sister ships [laughs] but rain. I’ve never known rain like it in my life. Anyway, we, we set sail again. By this time the convoy was somewhat spoiled. The faster ships they let go ahead at this point you see. But anyway, we kept, we sailed on and on and on. Eventually we must have, well I still had no idea where we were going. No idea at all, you know what was happening. Where we were going. So we got down to the South of Africa. We’re going around the Cape and suddenly we were sitting down to an evening meal down on the mess decks and suddenly bang and the whole ship shuddered like hell. So the boat sirens, alarms went so we, there wasn’t panic but we went up several ladders to the upper, to the boat decks and we stood at our boat stations. There was the Acali raft station on the bloody boat. We had an Acali raft station. And the ship just, just over there was going down. You know, she was the Naval vessel had turned back and was going towards it. So we stayed, we stayed at boat stations for what must have been well over an hour. We went down again and just sat down again when another bang went up and another ship had been hit. You know sort of further away. So, and then we were told over the tannoy that we’d actually arrived into an enemy minefield laid by the Japanese ocean going submarines and not to say anything about it. Right. Well, the next day we had these little leaflets handed out to us about conditions sort of in South Africa and we were told, our draft were told that we were going to be staying in South Africa you see. Well, you know I was absolutely over the moon about this because my eldest sister in ’39, had emigrated to South Africa and so I thought at least there. Only at the last moment two days after that we docked in Durban. And the wonderful thing is I don’t know if you’ve been told about this but all the convoys used to dock in Durban in those days. They were met by a lady on the end of the moles singing and she used, as the troop ships moved in towards the harbour she’d stand on the end of the mole, this lady in a long white dress and she was singing beautifully to all the ships as they came in. She did this every time a convoy came in to Durban during the war. Singing. Beautiful singing. And we docked and we were offloaded and we were taken to a transit camp. You see what happened was that the, it was a rest camp really and all the troops going up to North Africa you know RAF and Army used to —
Interviewer: Stop there.
BS: Have a week or a fortnights rest in Durban. At Clairwood before going out to North Africa you see. The campaign there. But we were only there for about a week because we were staying in South Africa and I was told my post would be to a place called Port Alfred down in the Cape, Eastern Cape, near Port Elizabeth. And what had happened was the Empire Training Scheme. They trained all the aircrew in South Africa, Rhodesia, America.
Interviewer: Canada.
BS: And Canada. Right. So I was posted there and of course the aircraft were Ansons and Oxfords and Old Fairey Battles.
[pause]
BS: So of course, I was over the moon because I mean and the first the thing is to go back when we were in Durban. The residents of Durban were so patriotic they used to talk about home as England not South Africa.
Interviewer: Really?
BS: All English speaking and English-speaking South Africans and every evening outside Clairwood camp there would be lines and lines of cars of Durban residents lining to take the troops to their homes to give them a —
Interviewer: Dinner.
BS: Meal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And look after them and give them a good time. I remember the first night or second night we were there I was, went out with my friend intending to go in to Durban just to see things and a car pulled up just as we and we were, ‘Come on lads.’ You know. ‘Would you like to come home with us?’ So we said, ‘Yes, please.’ He turned out to be the chief education officer for Durban and we went to his beautiful house. They had three lovely daughters and of course it was, and after war torn England it was a paradise coming there. It was. It was. It was peacetime. It was beautiful living conditions you know.
Interviewer: So life was beginning to look up.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: At this stage.
BS: And because a lot of the chaps had perhaps come from poor homes. It must have been quite an eye opener going to some of these houses you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Being looked after like that. You know it really must have been quite fantastic. So anyway, so and of course all the time I was in South Africa I kept on very good friendly terms with the family and I used to go up there sometimes on leave. Anyway, I got to Port Alfred and with the, I was with the Instrument Section and we had, you know the, the Ansons and Oxfords were used for navigator training and bomb aimer training you know. And air gunner training also and the Fairey Battles were used for target towing. And could you [laughs] I don’t really know much about the old Fairey Battle but they lost —
Interviewer: I’ve seen, I’ve seen photographs.
BS: They’d lost an awful lot in France.
Interviewer: And they were retired from active service pretty quickly weren’t they?
BS: Oh, they lost a lot in France. Anyways, you know how you take your life in your hands as a young boy I would fly in anything because I loved flying you see and I remember having a couple of flights in Fairey Battles and oh God, spewing glycol and petrol over the ruddy place you know. It was [laughs].
Interviewer: And was the flying school run by Airwork’s?
BS: No.
Interviewer: Or was it run —
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: By the RAF?
BS: No, it was run by the either the South African Air Force and the RAF between them. So on, on the camps you see there were quite a few camps out there they were, we were a mixture of South African Air Force and RAF. But the RAF were the main trainers. Do you know what I mean? They were the main experienced people. The South African Air Force were there as sort of because this was South Africa and our CO was a colonel, South African colonel you see. So that was fine. Ok. And so it, it was a lovely mixture really but the Air Force were the main operators as you might say. The RAF. Port Alfred and 43 Air School and —
Interviewer: And as you say their duty —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was to push out all the air crews.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To go back to Europe.
BS: Oh yes. That’s they used to come over and they would be there for quite a few weeks and of course it’s a wonderful atmosphere to train them in in peacetime.
Interviewer: Well, that’s why they set these schools up.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A — get them away from the war and B —
BS: Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer: In good weather conditions.
BS: That’s right. I mean the flying or navigating was perfect really and of course it was all astra navigation in those days. I mean you think back to life over here during the bombing period of those years. I mean that’s why the Americans didn’t do it up because they weren’t trained in astra navigation like our chaps were you see. You know night navigation. That’s why they took on all the —
Interviewer: That was the day raids.
BS: Day. Day bombing you see. So and I often used to go up you know on these trips with them. You know, I used to love to fly as much as I could.
Interviewer: And was there a lot of work to be done repairing the aircraft?
BS: Oh lord, yes. I mean you know it’s all the time. I mean and the wonderful thing is despite the fact that there was a war on and losses in shipping through U-boat activity and that sort of thing we never went short of spares. You know, it’s marvellous really.
Interviewer: So somebody back in England must have been doing their job to get all the spares sent out.
BS: Oh, the production in this country was absolutely wonderful when you think of it during the war. All firms like, you know like little engineering firms, workshops used to have contracts for for making spares and things like that you see. The, the organisation was absolutely fantastic, you know.
Interviewer: So and going back to Trenchard again.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: He set the, he set the Air Force up and made sure everybody was trained.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: So when it needed to work it could.
BS: Well, when you come back to it in 1934 they set up the five year plan. They built all those airfields like Cottesmore, Luffenham, Wittering, eventually Scampton all built on the same plan. You go to any station and they were all exactly the same virtually.
Interviewer: Similar. Similar layouts.
BS: Oh yes. H blocks and the officer’s mess. Sergeant’s Messes. Pretty well pretty much the same. This is and if it hadn’t been for that five year plan we’d have been the hell’s way in ‘39 when the war broke out.
Interviewer: How long did you get to stay in South Africa then?
BS: So anyway, so I stayed in South Africa until July ’45.
Interviewer: Oh, so you —
BS: I was there for over three years.
Interviewer: You were there for three years.
BS: Yeah. So —
Interviewer: Was that normal for for people to spend that much time there?
BS: Yes. Well, you couldn’t get home. There was no, there was no time limit to a tour in those days.
Interviewer: And presumably they wanted to cut down on the amount of troop transports.
BS: That’s right. That’s right.
Interviewer: And so it made sense to keep you there for a good long time.
BS: That’s right. I came back when the European war was over. So all the time I was out there I was very fortunate because my sister was living in Johannesburg and so the first leave I got I went up and stayed with her. Wonderful for me really. And of course, the other fellas didn’t have that. And I had some wonderful leaves and went all over the country and my sister’s husband he was working in the gold mines of Johannesburg. He joined the South African Air Force and he went up to North Africa. To a campaign up there against Rommel you see. The South African Air Force and my sister she, because her husband had gone up there she took the chance. She came down to Port Alfred and lived in the local hotel there. So —
Interviewer: Your sister on [unclear] —
BS: Yes [laughs] it was a most unusual situation really but it just so happened. It was luck.
Interviewer: You’ve got to make these things work for you haven’t you?
BS: But that’s right. Just luck. So that was that. Then in, as I say in —
Interviewer: Then again when you were serving there in the, in the sort of towards the end of the Second World War was it obvious that you heard about D-Day presumably.
BS: Oh, oh yes.
Interviewer: You heard about how the war was going.
BS: Yes. Yes. Oh yes. About [pause] what was it? In July? About January ’45 I was posted up to Pretoria to Robert’s Heights, Voortrekkerhoogte because that was Afrikaner speaking. Have you been to South Africa?
Interviewer: No. Not yet.
BS: Oh, you’ll have to go.
Interviewer: It’s on my list of places to go.
BS: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to go back again on this scheme that they’re running for veterans to go back.
Interviewer: Oh brilliant.
BS: And visit. Visit where with a grant from the lottery.
Interviewer: Great.
BS: So if I had somebody who would go with me I’d love to go back. Anyway, so I was posted up to Pretoria to a big air depot there. We were, we were sort of a big where they used to service all the aircraft instruments. They’d come in that were US you know, unserviceable. So by this time I’d been promoted to corporal.
Interviewer: Was that a big jump up to corporal?
BS: Yeah, well —
Interviewer: As in responsibility?
BS: Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean you know you know I thought it was anyway. You know.
Interviewer: Well, they always say corporal, the two ranks in the Air Force that are most important are the corporal and the warrant officer.
BS: Oh yes. Well, corporal because you, yes, oh yes. Yes. It was fine. Yes. And so, and then as I say in July ’45 or when, when yes we did know the war was coming to an end of course and then because it was so down, I always remember VE Day out there. We all paraded on the parade ground and were given a formal talk by the station commander there. He was another South African of course and immediately of course we were given the day off you see. So my friend and I we decided to go into Johannesburg. No. Into, into, that’s right into Pretoria itself and we were picked up by a South African colonel going in his car. Of course, we used to hitch hike all over. He took us to his house. I had a lovely time. We got as drunk as hell you know [laughs] We didn’t bloody well bother. Had a wonderful time. So that was how I spent VE Day really. I got back to Pretoria and then of course we were hanging about really for a week or two still doing our jobs of course because aircraft things still had to be serviced and looked after. And then we were posted. So July, at the end of June we were told, you know we were due to go home so we, we were taken down to Cape Town. Went down by train from Johannesburg on the, on the what do they call the wonderful train? The Blue Train they call it.
Interviewer: Blue Train. Yeah.
BS: Which went right down through Kimberley and the beautiful South African landscape down to Cape Town and we were there for about ten days or so in transit to Cape Town and of course it was lovely because Cape Town is a lovely area you know altogether. A beautiful place. And then we embarked on the Alcantara. A ship. A troop ship. Still the same conditions as the one I went out on really.
Interviewer: But this time no U-boats shooting at you.
BS: No. No. No U-boats but I’ll tell you what as soon as we sailed out from Cape Town they operated the gassing system which kept, gave you warnings of submarines. Oh, magnetic mines. That’s what they —
Interviewer: Magnetic, gassing for magnetic mines.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And then Aztec obviously —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: For detecting submarines.
BS: And I always remember that because we had it on the way out there. They have these what do they call the machine guns? The Oerlikons. They used to practice those every day and oh the noise they made.
Interviewer: This is after VE Day.
BS: Oh yeah. Well, of course I mean you know I mean things were still the same. I mean things hadn’t altered. It took time to. Of course, we sailed back in just over two and a half weeks. Nearly three weeks. So it was a much quicker easier time than —
Interviewer: And when you left South Africa did you know your time in the Air Force was coming to an end or was it?
BS: No. No. Because I was a regular.
Interviewer: You joined up as a regular.
BS: Oh, I was in for twelve years.
Interviewer: Ok. So, so when you signed up in 1939 you knew you were in for twelve years.
BS: [unclear] Oh that’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: So presumably a lot of people that were with you were conscripted.
BS: Well, obviously, yes. You had conscripted, you had a release, demob number they called it. And the lower the demob number the older you were you know.
Interviewer: The quicker they were posted to —
BS: The quicker you were out. But they never started demobbing until about August really. I mean this is what I gather the film on TV, one of these Foyles War things a guy came back from North Africa. He was out. Well, he wouldn’t have been out just like that. He’d have waited weeks you know. Things like that you notice.
Interviewer: Well looking at it the demob procedure was very well done.
BS: It was very well done. Everything was so organised believe me and I mean even the demob suits. I mean the lovely beautiful material. They were wonderful material. Shirts, all the ties.
Interviewer: A pair of shoes.
BS: Coat, hat, shoes. Everything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I mean —
Interviewer: And a suitcase was it?
BS: And a suitcase.
Interviewer: And a suitcase.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So anyway, so we got, oh yeah it was a very very pleasurable voyage. Actually, I enjoyed troopship life because you know funnily enough just to go back a bit going out to South Africa was where I learned to play chess and bridge on the deck for days on end. In the afternoon you were quite free and you’d sit about on deck you know and play cards or [pause] so I know quite a few games like that and you know so, oh I thought it was tough, spartan conditions. You know the food was very spartan and and once you got over the morning with boat drill and all that sort of thing. Of course, you know it’s, it was [pause] anyway so we got back through to Liverpool and, oh yes I’m sure it was Liverpool we docked at. And then of course we were sent our demob disembarkation leave and I went back down to Southend to my home.
Interviewer: And you’d been away —
BS: To my mum.
Interviewer: And you’d been away for a good long time then.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: When you —
BS: Yeah. Can I go back a little bit?
Interviewer: Of course you can.
BS: My two sisters at home who had left home the younger one she joined the Wrens and she was actually stationed down in the tunnels at Dover. They had tunnels under the castle which they had and she was a wireless operator there and she was involved in all that recording all the traffic on the Channel. Which they did you know with the German traffic and everything else. She was involved in that. My other sister who’d been a dressmaker joined the RAF and became a radio operator. Wonderful things they trained girls to do.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: She hadn’t a clue what electricity was almost and here she was just an ordinary dressmaker joined the Air Force and they trained her to be a wireless op down at Yatesbury. Is it Yatesbury? Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Yes, that’s right. Yatesbury.
Interviewer: Near Bristol.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes. Down there. And you know she qualified and eventually she was posted to Chichsands Priory which was an out station of —
Interviewer: Bentley Priory. Bletchley Park.
BS: Bletchley Park.
Interviewer: Bletchley Park.
BS: And she used to listen to all the German aircraft recording messages and pass it on to Bletchley Park. So an ordinary dressmaker. You see the people see they trained people up to do in the war you know.
Interviewer: And the responsibilities that they had.
BS: And the responsibility.
Interviewer: At a very young age.
BS: I know. Yes.
Interviewer: So much so that certainly after the, when the war came to an end a lot of women who had been trained wanted to keep, use that training.
BS: Well exactly. Oh yes. And she found it useful my, this other sister because when I got back from South Africa she was still in, still in the WAAF and about the following year she wanted to go out and join my sister in South Africa. But you couldn’t get passage anywhere at that time on the ships or anywhere and so she got together another group of like minded people and they bought an ex-Naval air sea rescue launch. Only about sixty seventy feet long. These twenty thirty people and they equipped it and they had these petrol engines with huge fifty gallon drums of, of fuel latched on the deck and they set off for South Africa. Took them three months to get there and she eventually did get there and of course it was in all the papers at the time. This wonderful trip made by these people.
Interviewer: That must have been an experience.
BS: And then when they got there they sold their boat and my sister went up to join my other sister up in Johannesburg. Well, that’s another story but so, you know those sorts of things people did you know in those days. Anyway, so, so that so I got home and when I got back I was home for a month and then I wondered where I was going to get posted to and of all places I was posted to RAF Westwood at Peterborough. There was an RAF station there training, training Free French Air Force pilots.
Interviewer: Is that just north of Peterborough?
BS: No. It’s on the edge of Peterborough. Right on the edge. Do you know Peterborough?
Interviewer: I do but I, I —
BS: If you go out to Westwood area it was you know the bit that was the Baker Perkins factory there. It was just at the back of Baker Perkins. In fact, the airfield stretched right up to Baker Perkins fence and that was all RAF Westwood. It’s all housing now and factories.
Interviewer: Yes, I knew there was an airfield around but I wasn’t sure where it was.
BS: So I was stationed there. I was stationed there for a short while and then after a few months, I wasn’t there all that long really I was posted to Japan.
Interviewer: Right. And we’ll talk about that in the next recording.
BS: Yes. Ok.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage and we’re talking about his experiences in the RAF and after your time in the Second World War Bertie I understand you ended up in Japan.
BS: Yes. It must have been sometime in early ’46 I was posted to Japan. Of course, this came as quite a surprise to me. Of all places to go to. To the occupation force in Japan because at that time Honshu, the main island was divided into half. The Americans occupied the upper part and the British Commonwealth Occupation Force as it was called occupied the lower half of Honshu, you know which was between Army and RAF. And what, what they’d done is when the occupation forces moved in they’d taken over old Japanese military establishments including airfields and when I got there I was posted to a place called Miho which had been another Japanese airfield where they trained the Kamikaze pilots. And the south, the south of Japan, or the south west southwest corner of Japan. But anyway going back to to going we set off from Tilbury in an old boat called the SS Ranchi and this had been an old P&O boat you know. Quite an old boat and it had been fitted out as a troop ship and it took us six weeks to get to Japan believe it or not. We think these days they are there in about sixteen hours. Almost. Not quite. A bit more than that but it took us six weeks to get there. All through the Med and down through stopping off at, in Port Said, Aden, Columbo, Singapore. It was quite, Shanghai, Hong Kong then into a place called Kure in Japan which had been a big Japanese naval base. And it had been fantastic, you know the thought of going to Japan. You know this place that we’d all heard of as you know created such, you know treated, given our boys such a bad time in the war in the Far East and it was quite a fascinating thought of going there. Anyway, arrived at Kure and going through the Japanese inland sea was quite an experience. All the little volcanic islands which were quite picturesque. Eventually landed at Kure. Anyway, we were entrained across to Miho, this ex-Japanese base and of course it’s quite interesting to see the Japanese landscape. It was very hilly and mountainous. Very forested all over. Of course it’s a volcanic, volcanic origin Japan so it is, you know it is very hilly. So we landed at Miho and I was posted on to, well basically 17 Squadron Spitfires but 11 Squadron was there as well and basically I was really working on both squadrons but administratively I was sort of on the strength of 17 Squadron. And the object of the, was although we were an occupation force the main job really was to patrol the sea around Japan off the, across the Yellow Sea and you know as far on the way across towards China and all over that area for some reason or other. But anyway, so that was very interesting being there.
Interviewer: Did you get to see much of the country at all?
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Whilst you were there.
BS: Yes. I got, I just to go back a bit it was interesting because all these, all the domestic staff on the camp were Japanese. Ex-Japanese Army and lots and lots of Japanese, and lots and lots of Japanese girls used to come on the camp every day doing all the menial tasks. In fact, the funny thing was that the, I was a corporal when I went there still and whilst had been there nearly a year I was promoted to sergeant. After I was promoted to sergeant I was moved to the Sergeant’s Mess. I was given my own sort of room and I was issued with a room girl who used to attend to all my domestic requirements. She used to clean my room and keep doing my washing and ironing and everything else. So that was quite an experience in itself and whilst I was there we had a NAAFI canteen of course which we, which we used to use and this was staffed by English girls in the WRVS who had been sent in to to run the canteens for the troops you see. And I happened to meet the manageress of the local NAAFI canteen and get to know her quite well. Gladys. And she, like the other girls were living in the Officer’s Mess. They were given the honorary rank of flight lieutenant because there was no other sort of way we could accommodate them really.
Interviewer: The equivalent. Yeah.
BS: You see. Because the Japanese were really off limits in the sense, in the sense that when you went out in Japan we were pretty well limited to we’d go in the shops and things. We weren’t really supposed to go in their houses and that sort of thing you know. You know, we were and all our provisions were you know were provided by either America, Australia or New Zealand or Australia. They used to come from all over the, the western world one might say. Of course, the Japanese had nothing. They had only rice and fish to eat you see. Of course, they weren’t ever proper meat eaters before that. They’d sort of produced dairy herds and that sort of thing. They lived on rice and fish. Anyway, so that was the situation there. So I got to know Gladys very very well and we eventually at the time I was there we, we courted as one might say and eventually I married her in Japan. And by this time she had been sent down to Iwakuni which was the main RAF base headquarters down, down near Kure. The RAF airfield at Iwakuni and it was the Communication Flight there. They had Dakotas there which they used to supply the, communicate with the RAF other establishments in Honshu and she got posted there to the WRVS canteen there and I wangled, by this time I’d been promoted to sergeant, by this time I wangled a posting down there myself you see. I think they took pity on me at Miho. Anyway, so I was posted down to Iwakuni as well. It was at Iwakuni that Gladys and I had as service wedding. And of course the funny thing was that of course I was working on the Dakotas there and the funny thing was that she was living in the Officer’s Mess there and I I was living in the Sergeant’s Mess. So after we got married we had to go back to the same situation. The only time I could see her was in the Officer’s Mess at Iwakuni. The WRVS had a separate sort of living room you see and I could visit her in this living room, you know. The only time I could see her inside anywhere. This went on for about nearly two months after which time we came home. But it was very interesting and when we did get married there we, we had a honeymoon up at a place called Koana just outside Tokyo. This was a beautiful hotel on the shores of the Pacific. It had been built by the Japanese to house the 1940 Olympic games which never took place. To house the contestants and everybody. So this was taken over as one of the leave hostels. Of course, what happened was that when the occupation force moved into Japan they sorted out all different sort of different sort of posh places around the country for troops to have a break.
Interviewer: R&R. Yeah.
BS: And one of them was at [Kyrenia?]. At Kyoto. Beautiful old famous beauty spot in Japan and going back a bit before I was married to Gladys I had a weeks leave up at Kyoto which was very fine indeed. It was up in the American sector actually near Tokyo. Anyway, so Gladys and I went to Koana. This was an absolutely wonderful fortnight and we actually had a week at Koana and a week down in Kobi at a beautiful Japanese house which had been the residence of the Baron Simotomo who had been executed as a war criminal and they’d taken over his old house as one of the leave hostels as it were. So we had the second week of our honeymoon there and it was absolutely fantastic. But the one of the things that you could see was in the distance to the top of Mount Fuji sticking up. You know with this white top. So that was that. Anyway, when it came time to come home I, we came home on a the old Dilwara which was a properly built troop ship and they used to call it the kit badge because they painted the big blue band around. And of course, Gladys came home first class as officer status.
Interviewer: Oh very nice.
BS: Whereas I of course was on the troop deck with the senior NCOs. Second class. So she came home first class and I came home second class and the only time I could see her was on the second class promenade deck. I wasn’t allowed through to the bloody first class either [laughs] Oh dear.
Interviewer: Only the Air Force could do that.
BS: And the thing is we had of course like all ships had OC troops on board. Like all troops had a usually a colonel who sort of late on in years.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You might say.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And at one stage she was, poor old Gladys got seasick. She wasn’t a good sailor and I got special treatment from the OC troops to go down to her cabin to give her first aid [laughs] Oh, it was, anyway we stopped off at Singapore and Columbo and we managed to get to shore and spend a bit of time together. BS: Not much though. So the only sort of married life I had was when we got back home to England really. So, but going back to but as 17 and 11 Squadrons on American Independence Day, the 4th of July, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: We were invited, the whole, both squadrons were invited up to a place called [pause] called [pause] Oh dear. The name’s gone from me for the moment but a big airfield near Tokyo which the Americans had taken over. Kizarizu. Kizarizu. That’s the name of the place. And we were invited up there to help take part in their celebrations you see. As I’ve got pictures of the two squadrons all lined up at Kizarizu. Which I, which I took when I was there. And we had a nice two or three days there really at the Americans are very —
Interviewer: Very hospitable and all that.
BS: Very very hospitable.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And they had [pause] yes what the hell, oh yes the famous American fighter. Lightnings I think they called them.
Interviewer: P38 was the twin engine.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: With the tail booms.
BS: That’s right. But before that going back to when I was at Miho the, the New Zealand air force they had corsairs used to land on —
Interviewer: They’re air craft carrier Corsairs yeah.
BS: And I’ve actually worked to service Corsairs as well.
Interviewer: Well, the Royal Navy had them as well of course.
BS: Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. So a corsair. They were nice aircraft. And so anyway so after six weeks we got back to England and of course when we got back to England Gladys the WVS, she had been in the Far East you see and of course when the, when the war ended she was moved up with the occupation forces so she was there before me you see. So anyway got back to England she was, and of course she went across to her home which was at Withernsea, East Yorkshire and I went for debriefing as it were to that place up on the Wirral. An old RAF station there. What was it? I’ve forgotten the name of it now but it was it was a sort of like a distribution place you know where you used to go for debriefing after being overseas and what not.
Interviewer: Before my time.
BS: [unclear] and all that and, yes. And of course, I and then of course I went on disembarkation leave and of course I went across to Gladys’ home in Withernsea on the East Yorkshire coast and for the first time I met her parents. It was ever so funny that. And, but I must say I did enjoy my time in Japan. It was eighteen months or so. It was quite an experience. Oh yes. Another thing I forgot to mention is that when I was at Iwakuni we were very near Hiroshima and I went to Hiroshima several times and I saw it in its devastated stated and all that and going back to that time unfortunately I lost my first wife to cancer. Breast cancer. She contracted it in 1954. ’54, and she died in 1960 and at the time they did wonder if she had picked up radio activity.
Interviewer: Out in Japan.
BS: Yes. Because we went to Hiroshima several times and you know saw it and also saw Nagasaki too at one time. So, anyway but Tokyo also Tokyo was an absolute mess as well. That was bombed to hell.
Interviewer: And did you get any feeling for what the Japanese thought about the war?
BS: The Japanese. Well, typical of the Oriental mind as soon as the Emperor said stop, finished and it was all bowing and cowing. Every time you spoke to the Japanese it was always like this. Even the military. And in fact, I don’t know whether you know it but after the war was finished when we, when we sort of took back Sumatra and Java like that we used the Japanese forces to control all the blooming rebels. They came under our control and we were, we were organising all their troops that were still there and they were as obedient as anything.
Interviewer: They had a very strong sense of leadership.
BS: This was their nature. Very very strong.
Interviewer: Very hierarchical —
BS: Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Society.
BS: The Japanese on a parade if the officer was just for you to turn around and hit the sergeant, hit a corporal the corporal would pick a private out and give him a thrashing. That’s why we used to hand the can back as I say.
Interviewer: Hand the can back. I haven’t heard that before.
BS: Oh yeah. Hand the can back. Oh yeah. Yeah. Pass the can back yes. Hand the can back. Yeah.
Interviewer: But you enjoyed your time there.
BS: Oh, I enjoyed all my Air Force career. Every bit of it. I had, I didn’t want to leave. The only reason why I left I was over fifty five, late forties when I came out it’s because we were at Wittering and we’d bought a house in Stamford. My son was at Stamford School and of course it’s a very good school.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Stamford School. And my daughter was coming up for there and so I was due to be posted to Aden or due to be posted abroad And we didn’t want any. I didn’t think Gwen wanted to move, my second wife that is so we decided and I’d had this very good job offered me with PERA at Melton Mowbray so —
Interviewer: As we say it’s a no brainer at that stage probably to—
BS: Well, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: It was Production Engineering and Research Association and I was offered a job as a senior author there. Of course, with of my technical experience in the RAF.
Interviewer: It was time to leave.
Interviewer: Yeah. The wonderful technical training I had in the Air Force was second to none.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And all the way through. You had your basic training but you keep on going on course after course after course.
BS: Again, back to —
Interviewer: I mean courses had six months.
BS: Back to that old training again.
Interviewer: Yes. I mean my electronic training and technical training was second to none when I came out.
BS: Ok. Well, we’ll talk about that in the next session.
Interviewer: Yes.
[recording paused]
BS: Do a quick sort of lead into that really.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, I’m with, I’m still with Bertie Salvage and we’ve gone through the Second World War. We’ve talked a little bit about time after the Second World War and now we’re starting to talk about his —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Memories of the V Force and you know —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: 1954 onwards.
BS: That’s right. Well, just to go back to 1951. I was posted out to Egypt. The Canal Zone. For three years on Deversoir on the Canal. On the Canal, you know.
Interviewer: Did that posting come out of the blue or did you ask for that?
BS: Oh no. That came out the blue because I can always remember when we came back from Japan going through the bloody Suez Canal I looked across at the bleak desert area and all the different military camps and I thought oh God I hope I never get posted here.
Interviewer: Yes. I hear that’s what most people say their first —
BS: I know I was posted out to Deversoir in Egypt. Of course, it was a bit of, a bit of a hammer blow to take but I actually it was quite nice there really. It was right on the edge of the Great Bitter Lake. I was on 249 Squadron. 213, on Vampires. And of course it was my first real, I had worked on Meteors before but it was my first real experience to be working on jet aircraft. They were lovely aircraft, the Vampire.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Have you ever flown one?
Interviewer: No. No.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: No.
BS: It took us, anyway so I worked on that and so in 1954 I got posted back to England and after my month’s disembarkation leave I was posted to RAF Gaydon. Never even heard of it before. But Gaydon had been a wartime station which they were re-starting again you know sort of —
Interviewer: They started to put some money into some of the —
BS: It had been held in like a sort of mothball condition.
Interviewer: Care and maintenance.
BS: Care and maintenance. Mothballed. And so they decided to start that off and start that off as as the initial V bomber training station you know. Of course, there would just be the V bombers. What happened was that the Victor, the Vulcan and the Victor were the first ones to be designed but they were going to take a long time to get into, into operations so they decided to as a stop gap to build the Valiant which Vickers had said they could build far quicker for them as a, as a stop gap and really until the Victors and the Vulcans were available. So I was posted to RAF Gaydon as an instructor on the Technical Training School. Of course it was going to be the OCU.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: The aircrew were going to be trained there and also the ground crew people servicing the aircraft you see. So I was posted on to be the instructor on instruments on the, on the Valiant first of all. So of course, when I got there I think the very first Valiant was there. Anyway, I was straightaway sent away on long courses. I had quite a few weeks down at Vickers at Weybridge where they were being made, built there. I went to different other manufacturers of different instruments and things. GPI and Mark 4s, these all sorts.
Interviewer: The navigation equipment on the aeroplane.
BS: Yeah. Yes. And also the NBS bombing system which they used. And so I went on these long courses and I got back to Gaydon eventually and by that time of course I think another sort of couple of others were there or something and we set up the school. And I was in instruments, we had all the other trades, instruments, air frames, armaments you know and so of course I had to straight away set about creating all my instruction notes, my instruction techniques and programmes. All the, when you go in to instructing you have that all to do.
Interviewer: Yes. I remember that. Yes.
BS: Because, [unclear] because you really start to learn other things you know. You really start to realise how much do I know about my job and that sort of thing. And when it came to start teaching of course it was, it was a bit tough at first but I really got into it you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And I got so used to writing up the authorship, authoring my own notes that it I found it very interesting indeed.
Interviewer: And working with the manufacturers is normally quite —
BS: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: You get a lot of job satisfaction if you —
BS: Yeah. I went to Coventry to HSD, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics and everywhere and also to [pause] no that was later on I went to Ferranti when I was on the Blue Steel. So, you know. So, yes you got used to it. I spent quite a month or two I suppose going around different manufacturers. Cheltenham down to —
Interviewer: Smiths.
BS: To Smiths. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know, all sorts of different places. Anyway, of course you collate all this knowledge, put it all together and you know and, and the first day I had to instruct, you know the chaps are sitting there. I thought it was, you know it was quite an experience really.
Interviewer: And what rank are you by now?
BS: I was still a sergeant.
Interviewer: Still a sergeant. Yeah.
BS: Yes. Promotion was a bit slow and anyway I was going to go for the chief tech which I got a bit later on.
Interviewer: And what was living I mean England was still rationing going on in this period.
BS: Yeah, so what happened was when I first went to Gaydon of course there were no married quarters so they said to us go and find yourself a hiring somewhere and we’ll take it on. So I looked around South Warwickshire. I don’t know whether you know South Warwickshire. It’s a lovely county.
Interviewer: Not really. It’s a nice part of the world though, isn’t it?
BS: [unclear] and all down Stratford Upon Avon. All down that way because we were near Stratford you see and so I found myself a little —
Interviewer: This was before the M40 of course.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I found myself a little village called, down near Moreton in the Marsh called called Brailes and I found a little tiny cottage there. A country cottage. And so I moved Gladys down there, my wife with, who had our first boy then, our son by then. She was also, no she had got the two boys by then. We had two sons. So she came and so I was living out. It was about twelve miles away from there so I used to go in and backwards and forwards to Gaydon every day. So we were living in married and they started to build married quarters but they weren’t going to be ready for another year you see. So, so that went on really and of course getting to know the aircraft better and the chaps coming through. It used to be a fortnight, two weeks course or two or three weeks and then would be about a week and then have another lot come in then.
Interviewer: And is National Service still going on at this stage?
BS: And I’m going to say this, oh yes, National Service run to 1960 ’61. So National Service but what impressed me was a lot of national service chaps coming through HN, Higher National Certificate. Well trained chaps.
Interviewer: Chaps that decided to join the Air Force rather than —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And they were a two year commitment were they?
BS: The two year commitment.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: But they were most interesting to teach because they were so receptive. I bet you could tell them something they’d know straightaway through their engineering background. They were a joy to teach really you know. They were so good. It’s like it was during the war of course where they had all these skilled people in from outside and —
Interviewer: The interesting thing to me if people joined on a two year National Service if they spent a year or eighteen months training they would be only be productive for six months.
BS: Oh, I know. That’s right. Well, they used to spend about six months training I suppose up to the basic mechanics but I’d get these chaps in and you know they were highly really highly qualified.
Interviewer: And of course, in the early 50s of course, there was a massive expansion of the Air Force because of Korea.
BS: Oh yes. That’s right.
Interviewer: And a lot of training schools were set up then.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A lot of aircrew were pumped through.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And obviously there would have been all the Meteor training outfits.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So I was at, I was at Leconfield when the Korean War was on and we sent aircraft. Oh yes, when I was at Gaydon the Suez Crisis erupted.
Interviewer: ’56.
BS: Well, because I’d just come back from Suez only the previous year.
Oh, of course. Yes.
BS: And I was, I got we went through quite a lot of trouble out there with it before it fully broke out really. You know had a lot of trouble really. Anyway, but the Suez Crisis broke out and of course we had to get involved in that and we sent two or three Valiants out there with bombed up and ready to go and you know.
Interviewer: They went to Malta, didn’t they?
BS: They went to Malta.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. The service sort of evolved in that. So after, oh about 1957 or thereabouts we had the first Victors and so yes I also went then. I went on. I was taken off and went on the quite a few [unclear] of course to Handley Page at Radlett and did the Victor. On the Victor. So when I came back I was trained up on the Victor but what happened was that because it was a bit of a struggle to teach on two aircraft like that because we still had the Valiants there. A few Valiants. They had another chap come in to supplement me to, you know on the Victor so I did a bit of teaching on the Victor but this other guy sort of did more and more of that really on the actual instrumentation side. So I still sort of really concentrated on the Valiant. But I did, when he was away I used to do the Victor as well you know. So but very similar the systems really you know. Particularly the NBS system and the navigation equipment and everything else and basically the flying was pretty much it was just the layouts and things. But general principles were the same. So it was all very interesting though while I was there. So I suppose do you want me to go on from there?
Interviewer: Yeah, I just wondered, you know —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: So how long did you stay on at Gaydon?
BS: Sorry?
Interviewer: How long did you spend at Gaydon then?
BS: At Gaydon, I was, what happened was when I was at Gaydon unfortunately while I was there my first wife contracted cancer and she was given basically first of all two years to live then she actually lived for five so although I was really screened on this instructing job. It was how shall I put it? More heavily emphasised that I was screened because of Gladys’ illnesses.
Interviewer: Yeah. Domestic situation. Yeah.
BS: And through that time I was put up for a branch commission in the engineering branch but I had to turn it down because I couldn’t leave my wife, you see.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BS: So that, so that was that but anyway that didn’t matter. So that was that so, and then, so she died in 1960 and eventually I left in 1962. I was posted to RAF Newton. Not got posted but I was despatched there on the Skybolt course because I was designated. Because of my experience of technical you know side of thing they decreed that I should go on the Skybolt.
Interviewer: They needed someone to bring Skybolt into service.
BS: So I went to Newton for six months. I’d all the instrumentation electronic side of control and guidance of the Skybolt missile.
Interviewer: And did you get out to America?
BS: No.
Interviewer: During that time.
BS: Unfortunately, I got back to Gaydon and we were given a couple of weeks to pack up and we’d packed up almost with a few, well with a week I think of going to America. My wife was, well the whole family was going to go together to Denver in Colorado and then after that we were going to go down to Florida to Eginton or Eglington.
Interviewer: Eglin.
BS: Eglin.
Interviewer: Not Elgin. Eglin.
BS: We had to go to Eglin.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Down on the Caribbean.
Interviewer: On the —
BS: Yes. Where we were —
Interviewer: The Florida coast.
BS: Two years and got fully Skybolt trained to come but a week or two before they decided to ditch Skybolt in favour of the Polaris for the submarine as a strategic missile.
Interviewer: Well, my understanding is Skybolt isn’t doing very well and —
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: JFK met with Macmillan.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And —
BS: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: JFK offered, the Americans offered to give the Brits the chance to develop it and, and Macmillan thought the best way out of that was to buy Polaris instead.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Which JFK agreed to.
BS: Yes. So that’s why I didn’t go. So that, so that was that finished. So of course I was then it was a few weeks in. I was a chief technician by this time well I had been for a flight sergeant. Anyway, so I think because of my Skybolt experience they decided that I should go to Blue Steel.
Interviewer: Quite logical. Yes.
BS: Yes, so because of my, so back I went to Newton and because I’d already done the Skybolt six months I was spared the initial training on Blue Steel because it was still the basic sort of training on electronics you see.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: So I went back to Newton for three months on the Blue Steel system itself. So I went back in, that was 1963 and I went back until March 1964 or March or April of ’64. So I learned all the, when I was involved on Blue Steel what was the control, the guidance system. The inertial navigation system, the control system which was the gyro control like auto pilot.
Interviewer: You had an inertia navigator didn’t it?
BS: Oh yes. Yeah, I did, I had to go to Ferrantis for that, you know. And also the flight rules computer. I was involved with all this, that [unclear] on that so I was really fully technically trained on the control and guidance system of the Blue System. I don’t think there’s many people left.
Interviewer: Just a handful I think probably that remember it.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: In any details.
BS: Anyway, so that was very interestingly and fantastically the courses I went on what you learned.
Interviewer: Who built the missile Blue Steel? Do you remember?
BS: It was HSD, Coventry.
Interviewer: Oh, Hawker Siddeley. Yeah.
BS: Yes. So, we went across there again as well. So, so I went back to Newton for that and eventually then I got posted to, well it was either Scampton or Wittering. We didn’t know. Anyway, I was, I was posted to Scampton, to Wittering. But of course, all the time I was at Wittering we had this strong liaison with Waddington with, with Scampton.
Interviewer: Scampton.
BS: Because I mean the systems on the two were, the Blue Steels were identical really. I mean —
Interviewer: A missile is identical it’s just —
BS: A missile. Yes.
Interviewer: It’s just a question of how it plugged in to the aeroplane.
BS: That’s right. Yes. But so when I went to Wittering they had built a huge new hangar there with all the servicing workshops and offices. Administrative parts and also the HTP as you called it.
Interviewer: High test peroxide.
BS: Yeah. The —
Interviewer: The Gin Palace.
BS: The Gin Palace. Yes. That was right next to the hangar and they were closely associated so I was straightway when I went to Wittering I was put in the, they had a, you know the laboratories and the calibration rooms of the workshops for the controls guidance systems. And so I was put in, I was put in charge of that really and you know obviously had staff who would be trained up like me but so for several, a year or two I was involved in the service and maintenance of the systems going on the missile.
Interviewer: And can you remember any test firings and things like that?
BS: Well, yes. I didn’t actually. I think they took off from the Welsh coast didn’t they?
Interviewer: They would have fired probably some in the Aberporth range.
BS: Yeah. The Aberporth ranges. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah but —
BS: But I never went over there. Some people did but I never got in because I was involved in the, in the servicing.
Interviewer: Servicing.
BS: Testing and calibration of the systems really, you know.
Interviewer: And it was quite a complicated piece of kit, was it? My understanding was that you had to align the inertial and fly [unclear] and then —
BS: Oh lord. Oh yes. Yes. You did. Yes. You did all that and of course we had in the iron department as we called it we had a higher complex system of calibration instruments to land the [tryoscopic] the brake hold, brake control charge had to be absolutely perfectly set up and [unclear] you know you set that with the oscilloscopes and that sort of thing and the Flight Rules Computer, the FRC, what happened was that the, the Blue Steel would be dropped from about forty thousand feet. The motor would kick in, climb up to about sixty thousand, fly for about two hundred miles, then freefall on the target. That was the [pause] Now as soon as it was launched they got up to altitude then the control system would fit in, it would click in to the control and guide the thing directed by the Flight Rules Computer which was the FRC. So the computer would take it to target with the controls being functioned by the control system provided.
Interviewer: And Ferranti I presume did all the, did that part of the —
BS: That’s right. Yes. Yes, it’s from the [INC] to the FRC to the control system and they did. Everything would lock off at a certain point and it would just freefall on to target. That’s the, that was the theory. But so all three were closely combined really. [INC[ IN, THE FRC, the control system.
Interviewer: And how did they get on regarding the aeroplane and guiding the missile when it was loaded with its, with the weapon?
BS: Well, I’ve been, well let’s put it this way I never actually went out to the, out of the QRA system. What happened was that there used to be at least one, perhaps sometimes two at the end of the runway. Quick Retaliation Aircraft they called it. The QRA. And there was always an aircraft, one or two out there all the time.
Interviewer: Loaded up and ready to go.
BS: And the crew on board as well. Ready to go within minutes you know. To take off and there would have been a guard out there I assume. I never actually went out there.
Interviewer: So if you had to service the missile —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: The warhead would be taken off.
BS: Oh lord, yes. Well, I was all the time you never did any servicing unless the missile was actually in the hangar. Not to the point of its control system. Oh yes. They’d take the pod out and then they’d bring the missile in. The pod was put in, you know —
Interviewer: So the warhead was called the pod, was it?
BS: The pod.
Interviewer: Ok.
BS: The pod, yeah. I saw several. Well, I saw. I never had anything to do with them but I mean they used to keep we had the bomb dump at Wittering. It’s still there I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
BS: The Navy used to, the Navy used it.
Interviewer: Well, the bomb dump at Wittering was used, you know.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: It was the first bomb dump for the first nuclear weapons.
BS: I think it’s still functioning is it? They, I think they were —
Interviewer: I’m not too sure what it’s used for now.
BS: I think I’ve seen Navy vehicles going in there. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Quite possibly being used as a storage area.
BS: Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. It was. I never actually went in it but I, you know, I know where it was [unclear] but I never actually went inside but yes they used to. There was a lot of, a lot of fuss when they used to be loading them up with the pod you know but that was quite, and then of course as I was saying what [pause] what was it? About 1967 or thereabouts they decided that they wanted more people to come into the system. Technicians you know. And they decided to set up the Blue Steel Training School. Technical Training School at Wittering. In the Blue Steel hangar. And I was appointed, because of my instructing experience, my vast experience they asked me to set it up and run it as as organiser and also to instruct myself as a flight sergeant at this time. Instruct. Instruct. Instruct on it you see as well as organise all the other trades. So we, we, we have this scheme running. We used to have them in for about a week or two and teach them the systems, you know. So I was running that, the Technical Training School there because of my experience.
Interviewer: And did that do that do, that did all the training for Blue Steel so chaps would come down from Scampton and to do the course with you.
BS: Well, I think Scampton had, I think they must have had their own scheme because I don’t remember people coming from Scampton. I think they had their own scheme running up there. I’m pretty sure because I was just really involved with those coming into Wittering really. But I’m sure they must have done. So I was heavily involved with that. So you see my experience is very deep on the technical side on the ring of steel.
Interviewer: The thing that appeals to me is the fact that you started on learning your trade back in 1939.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: And here we are thirty years on.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Still using the basics of electrics.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: But applying it into a much more modern system.
BS: Oh, [unclear] all, I mean I didn’t know a thing about electronics and a finite mechanism you know and the correlation between the two mechanics to electrics and backwards and forwards. You know what I mean.
Interviewer: The beginning of digital computing.
BS: The transfers, oh yes. Oh yes. That was a appealing. The FRC was. Of course, it was all sort of transistors then. You know, transistor technology. So, you know and, and of course, you know apart from being taught you learn a lot through reading too. You know, it’s all —
Interviewer: And you must have seen a terrific change in the Air Force to have gone from the Second World War.
BS: Oh, right through.
Interviewer: To the time of Korea.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: And conscription still going on.
BS: Listen, this is about me. I think —
Interviewer: National Service.
BS: I went through the most fascinating period really right through to, you know from basic things like this blooming Valentia.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: To —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: To, to V bombers, you know. And of course, at Cosford they have the, the Cold War hangar there.
Interviewer: They do, yes. Yeah.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: I’ve been just the once.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And I must go again.
BS: Yes, I, pardon?
Interviewer: I’ve just been the once and I must go again.
BS: Yeah, well you see my daughter lives at Lichfield so it’s only just a stone’s throw from there so when I go, I’ve been once or twice you know. She takes me there. Yes and of course they’ve got a Blue Steel there. And I’ll tell you where else I saw Blue Steel. Out at Newark. You know out at Newark.
Interviewer: At the Air Museum.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: I think there’s one.
BS: I found it a pretty tatty when I went down.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: [unclear]
Interviewer: That’s the problem with museums. They get things in quite bad condition sometimes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And they have to allocate them time.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: To renovate them.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And bring them up to —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Their former glory.
BS: And the amazing thing is, or the sad thing is that there’s only one Valiant and that’s at Cosford. That’s the only one. The only is one that is in existence now.
Interviewer: Well, the problem with you know the large aeroplanes is that if you leave them out in the open —
BS: Oh aye, well —
Interviewer: They rot very quickly.
BS: They do.
Interviewer: So I know the Irish museum —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Say they have a problem with big aeroplanes.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: They just don’t have the room for them all.
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: And they’re wondering when the TriStar retires.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Where they’re going to have space to put one of those.
BS: Yes. Yes. So you know so when the Blue Steel they decided to start phasing about ’69 ’70. I just stayed on for a bit longer then I decided to retire from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Time for pastures new.
BS: Didn’t really want to go but I was really, circumstances made it. But fortunately, I went in to a very very good job at PERA and of course [pause] do you want me to go on?
Interviewer: Yes. Keep going.
BS: When I went to PERA at Melton Mowbray I don’t know whether you know or have heard of it.
Interviewer: No, I’ve not heard of them.
BS: Production Engineering and Research Association. They trouble shoot for the engineering industry. They’ve experts in every field.
Interviewer: And did, did they approach you or did you hear about it?
BS: No. I heard about them so I approached them and they wanted to interview me and I got the job before I left the Air Force.
Interviewer: Fabulous.
BS: Yeah. So that was it. So I, they have this, all these different departments for troubleshoot. Expert top engineers and you know —
Interviewer: Sounds a fantastic organisation.
BS: These particularly the machine tool industry would send people there on courses and they would have experts from PERA go to different factories to give them advice on production engineering.
Interviewer: Sounds fantastic.
BS: So they always had this large technical authorship department as well which they write up handbooks for different industries you know. So I applied but of course because of my RAF experience they had a contract. They had a contract with the Admiralty.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: To write up the manuals for the nuclear submarines at Barrow. So I was sent up to bloody Barrow in Furness on this contract. I was on HMS Churchill for months writing up the control systems on the nuclear submarines of the of the CO2 scrubber systems. You know the air is scrubbed clean and it’s ejected into the deep water to leave the oxygen to go back into the, into the hull. You know. And I wrote up all these you see because of my experience. But you know so that was a very fascinating really. So, so anyway after a couple of years I one of the member firms was a firm called Newall Engineering Group at Peterborough here. They wrote, they produced these, these very very sophisticated machine tools. Grinders and jig borers and things like that for the machine tool for the mainly for the automotive industry. You know, car factories. So they were a member firm of PERA and they were looking for a, and we used to write books for them. But they wanted their own chief author you see. So I applied and I got the job. I wanted to come nearer home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I was so fed up with —
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah, you get —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Commuting gets a bit wearing.
BS: That’s right. It’s interesting but you know.
Interviewer: No I thought —
BS: So I thought I would come so it was a very very good job and I’d be my own boss there you know and [unclear] so I went to PERA. I went to —
Interviewer: Right.
BS: Newalls at Peterborough and I had to really convert my mind but using basic engineering knowledge to these highly sophisticated machine tools. Jig borers and high speed grinders which used to grind crank shafts and [cannon] shafts. And that was fascinating because you use your basic engineering knowledge. Although I didn’t know anything about them you still get through.
Interviewer: Yeah, its —
BS: You, you have to spend all the time in the drawing office with them and the designers. The people and really pick their brains really.
Interviewer: But if you’d been trained well in the first place it’s not difficult —
BS: Oh no.
Interviewer: To pick up something new is it?
BS: No. No. Not at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the idea being that you were, you could have this information, collate it write it in a presentable form you know people could read and understand, take it back and do you understand? Can you read it? And they would make, they would criticise.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know so you —
Interviewer: Critique.
BS: So that’s right so then you produce the complete manual. The interesting thing was that we supplied the machines all over the world to, to China, to, to Russia, to, to Sweden, to France to, you know all sorts of places we sold machines to, particularly Russia.
Interviewer: Did you get to travel there?
BS: Oh no. I didn’t unfortunately.
Interviewer: No.
BS: But my books of course had to be translated in to the —
Interviewer: The native language.
BS: Exactly. So as soon as I had produced a manual for machines that were going somewhere I had to get it and I had to go to the translator, we used to translate it in London. I used to go down to the translators, get the books translated, bring it back and then all us engineers used to come across you know to check the machines before going to the different countries. And they’d want to read the manual so you had to give them the manual in their language for to see if they understood you know and usually you know they went down pretty well really. And the thing is that trans, technical translation is not like ordinary translation it has to be done by A — a national of the country concerned which was just going plus the fact it has to be an engineer.
Interviewer: Yes. You’ve got it. Yes.
BS: So you’ve got to have the two. There’s no good getting a chap whose learned Russian or French to do it.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: It’s got to be a national of the country concerned.
Interviewer: Have you ever read any books, manuals on Japanese hifi you’ll know.
BS: Oh, I know.
Interviewer: It says press button B to —
BS: In my experience I’m, oh I’m very critical of that. Very critical. So that was that really. So —
Interviewer: Well, very well. Thanks for telling me about your, a little bit of time about your time after you left the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Thank you.
BS: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Bertie Salvage
Salvage, Bertie-Cold War-World War II
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v67
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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eng
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Sound
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01:38:46 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bertie Salvage joined the RAF in 1939 as an apprentice and initially began his technical training at RAF Cranwell before training was transferred to RAF Halton and also shortened because of the start of the Second World War. Bertie was present when Lord Trenchard addressed the ground staff at the station. Bertie was sent to South Africa to work on aircraft there for the Empire Training Scheme. He was then posted to Japan in the post war years. He progressed in his career with post war aircraft including the V bombers and then on to missiles systems such as Skybolt and Blue Steel.
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1941
1943
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
Japan
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Southend-on-Sea
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Creator
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This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
218 Squadron
ground personnel
military living conditions
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Marham
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46473/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v610006.mp3
dd40ecc0585ff38d9e8794ebee668ae1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46473/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v610007.mp3
887d765e0db5b062b1290fb14be172c0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46473/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v610008.mp3
29c3dba85b32e53427be304bbd352b0a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Part 1.
Interviewer: Interviewing Mr Doug Marsh of Cleethorpes about his experiences with 57 Squadron as a navigator. Right, Mr Marsh, where were you born?
DM: At East Halton here in Lincolnshire.
Interviewer: What year?
DM: 1922.
Interviewer: And what did your father do?
DM: He was in the Royal Navy.
Interviewer: And did that give you an inclination to join the Navy when the war came?
DM: Well, I did, I thought about it but I was sort of persuaded myself I was going to be a lot better off financially as aircrew.
Interviewer: Right. So where did you go to school?
DM: Well, I went initially at East Halton. Then this is all whilst I’m under ten. Well, up to ten, eleven and I had two periods when I went to school down in Gillingham because my father was at Chatham and he was on twenty two years service you see and we didn’t really see much of him during my early years because he was in New Zealand with the Navy there for two and a half years at one time and another two or so in Shanghai. However, the next schooling was when I came sort of eleven. I went to St James which is a church school here in Grimsby.
Interviewer: So was that because your father had been moved base or —
DM: Well, no it was just that we, my mother and I came back here to Lincolnshire because she owned the house here and my grandmother lived in it and also her aged brother. It was quite a big house you know, four bedroomed and they in fact looked after it when we were down at Chatham. Well, we lived in Gillingham actually but —
Interviewer: So you came back to Grimsby.
DM: No.
Interviewer: Sorry?
DM: We didn’t have any connection with Grimsby at that stage at all.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: The, when my father came out of the Navy at the end of his twenty two years service he had decided they wanted a business and they actually finished up, it was a toss up between the Post Office and a fish and chip shop and so being a, he was a cook, a chief petty officer cook and so they chose the fish shop at Immingham. And it was from there that I went to school in Grimsby.
Interviewer: Right. When did you leave school?
DM: Now then [pause] It would have been [pause] in 1938 I think.
Interviewer: And what did you, what did you do when you left school?
DM: Well, I initially helped with the fish and chip shop doing the spuds and whatnot [laughs] but that was only temporary because I had before leaving school I’d been lucky enough to get a place at the Grimsby Corporation Electricity Works which was owned by the council. The authority. They took on two boys each year but I couldn’t join, I couldn’t start I should say until the January. January 1940. The war broke out in about ’31 was it? September ’39.
Interviewer: 1939. Yeah. Yes.
DM: So then, so I was sort of killing time as it were for a year or so. However, of course the war came up and it wasn’t long before I got a letter just saying that due to the circumstances they were not continuing presently with this scheme, these two boys on a five year training course which was very nearly as good as a degree in that particular field. So the next thing was that the fish shop wasn’t doing really very well because it was firstly difficult to get fish which got gradually worse. Potatoes were plentiful but oil, my father always used ground nut oil not dripping and he couldn’t get it, you know. That was the thing that killed it off so, and then they agreed to close it down. And at that point I wanted something still to do and the Prudential man called one day and my mother said, ‘Have you got any jobs for lads like these?’ You see. He said, ‘Aye we have.’ Because all his agents were being called up and replaced by young people or women’ And so I went into that and enjoyed it quite a lot. I was with the Prudential for about probably eighteen months. Starting salary fifteen shillings but after only three months they increased it to twenty five shillings a week. And then —
[recording cuts]
DM: And then of course it came time to be called up anyway. Do you want to know about that?
Interviewer: Yeah. Yes. So yeah, so you were facing call up. You then decided —
DM: Well, not really. I volunteered.
Interviewer: Volunteered.
DM: They were advertising.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: In every paper you picked up, for aircrew.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: But you couldn’t volunteer until you were nineteen and a quarter
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And that was in the June of [pause] the fourteenth.
Interviewer: So, June the 14th you volunteered.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And —
DM: Is that right? 1922.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It should be.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So what happened? Did you get, once you’d volunteered did you get called to an ITW straight away or —
DM: No. No. Oh no. I don’t think. We were, the first thing was to, I went to somewhere in town in Grimsby where they did a bit of a medical on you and they asked you a few questions but nothing very serious and then the next one were to report to the barracks in Lincoln. When I got there there was quite a few and they interviewed us and [pause] I don’t think that’s actually correct. I think we got the information. They said if you go to Lincoln and then a party of us would be taken down to — ’
Interviewer: Lord’s.
DM: No. No. No. Where they used to have the zeppelins.
Interviewer: Oh yes. Yes. Sorry. Yes.
DM: I think I told you.
Interviewer: Yeah. Near Bedford.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes. I know where you are I general.
DM: You know. I told you last time. I’m sure I did.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
DM: I can’t think of its name now.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And had an overnight stay there. And the next morning we went and had various tests. A few written tests and then interviews were the main thing and they said at the end of it, ‘Right, you’re accepted as a navigator for training. Or navigator training.’
Interviewer: So how did they assess you to be a navigator? Did you [unclear]
DM: Well, I was coming to that.
Interviewer: Oh sorry.
DM: Well, everybody there wanted to be a pilot of course but it turned out that they were only recruiting navigators that day. I think it was true in all those spheres, you know. They just said, ‘Oh, it doesn’t matter who they are.’ And the next thing as you said about reporting to, well first of all they gave us a badge and said, ‘You are on three months deferred service.’ So that took us to December and then got a long foolscap sheet of telegram telling us what to do and how to do it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Travel passes and all the rest of it to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground.
Interviewer: The Aircrew Reception Centre.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: And we sat there in the seats, in the stands as it were. There was quite a few there of course. I should say maybe up to maybe two hundred and eventually a corporal came along and he said, ‘Right. From here to the end of the row you follow me.’ And if you’d sat somewhere else funnily enough [laughs] this is the gospel truth you would have been a pilot.
Interviewer: So this intro to ACRC was the posh end. Navigators, pilots, bomb aimers.
DM: Yeah. Well, it was just that.
Interviewer: Observers.
DM: Well, they weren’t bomb aimers.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: We were, I was an observer.
Interviewer: That’s right. Ok.
DM: That’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. So off you marched then.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: In your group.
DM: And it didn’t, it could have happened as simple as that. Other people missed out the other way around [laughs] probably.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway —
Interviewer: So what happened at ACRC then? I assume you were —
DM: This is at large?
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Yes. Well, we were taken to, I can’t remember the preliminaries but we were taken to a huge block of flats in St Johns Wood. They were sort of quite close to the park. What do you call it?
Interviewer: Regent’s Park.
DM: Regent’s Park. That’s right. And we used to use, like there had been a big restaurant in Regent’s Park itself to eat. So we went and we did a bit of square bashing on the streets. We got kitted out naturally. We had about three injections and the thing that leaves a mark, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: My memory is not so good on these things now.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But that all was done and then they said, that was in the morning, late morning and they said, ‘Right, well we’ll march you back to your billets.’ Because of course the flats were empty. All you got was three biscuits and a blanket or two and nothing else. That was how it, there was no furniture left in the place. Not even [unclear] chair. And then they had [prizes]. They said, ‘The best thing you can do is get into your pyjamas and go to bed and stay there until tomorrow morning.’ And you did feel a bit groggy. No doubt about it with these, all these drugs and but the next morning I felt as right as rain. I think one or two I remember had trouble but it didn’t bother me. Where are we?
Interviewer: How long did they put you at Lord’s for?
DM: Well, not more I wouldn’t think than about a month and I managed to wangle leave. My father put me up to this of course. He said, ‘You tell them I’m coming home on leave and you would like to see me.’ It worked.
Interviewer: Was your father back in the Navy by the end of the war?
DM: Oh, well, he was in before it even started.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Back in and he was at Shotley near Harwich and he stayed there right through as it happened. If you want to know a little bit more he was originally sent with some ratings to Butlins at Skegness to reorganise the catering. But he phoned them after a couple of days and said, ‘We’re doing nothing here because the Butlins staff insist on doing the catering.’ So they said, ‘Right. Back to Chatham then.’ And a fortnight or so later he was sent to Shotley and he stayed there as I say.
Interviewer: Now, when you first joined the RAF why did you join the RAF rather than the Navy?
DM: Well, I fancied joining the Navy but I think you know on the other hand was the fact that I didn’t fancy [pause] well I thought it was probably a better bet from the point of view of survival because I mean when you are sunk, well —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s what you are isn’t it?
Interviewer: Had you any interest in the, in the Air Force or flying before that?
DM: No. Not really.
Interviewer: So it was just the thought —
DM: I think my father was pleased in a way, you know that I had chosen not to go in the Navy. He was thinking I would probably me more at risk of something.
Interviewer: So you left Lord’s and where did you go to next? Did you come home for a while?
DM: No.
Interviewer: Oh, you were straight on to ITW were you?
DM: That’s right. At Hullavington.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: And what were you doing there?
DM: Well, the normal. Initial training. We did ordinary maths and English and bits and bobs.
Interviewer: So you started —
DM: And signals came into it. Aldis lamp and learning the Morse Code and that sort of thing.
Interviewer: It was like your preliminary navigational training.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: At that stage. Yeah.
DM: So we had a sort of connection with navigation but it was still pretty basic stuff you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Just to say that you had worked to it on the educational level because even at that stage I’m not sure how many of us there were, probably about twenty five to thirty in a class and three of them were thrown out at that stage.
Interviewer: And there would be exams to pass or tests to pass.
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yes, you had to do tests at the end. I can’t remember really.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: How many it was now but it couldn’t have been more than about maybe six weeks I would think.
Interviewer: Then from Hullavington you went to where? Where was next?
DM: Well, I think that was when I had the time at Brighton and Eastbourne.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
DM: Mainly.
Interviewer: What was that?
DM: Well, we were using the schools because all the children had been evacuated and again it was more navigation rather than the other stuff we’d done at ITW.
Interviewer: So you got through the initial RAF stuff at Hullavington.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And you now had proper navigational training.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Gradually advancing.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: What you, what you were doing.
DM: And I think you got your LAC didn’t you at the end of that?
Interviewer: When you were down there did you see any sort of air raids or any action by the German Luftwaffe?
DM: Well, I did. Yes. On one occasion because I can’t remember which day but one afternoon a week was sports afternoon and most people just went running but there was about six of us who played golf and so we went up on the Downs and it wasn’t necessarily the first time but one of the times somebody said, ‘Hey, there’s sirens are going down there and so we looked and then an aircraft appeared so we got in some bushes thinking you never know [laughs] However, they came in and they dropped one on the Railway Station which put it out of action for a few days.
Interviewer: Where was this? In Brighton?
DM: No, this was in, now which [pause] I’m not sure which.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
DM: But it was either Eastbourne or Brighton.
Interviewer: Yeah. So they dropped one bomb on the station, yeah and then —
DM: Yes. And then another in a gas holder. We were watching. It just folded and then a cloud went up the same shape as the —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: To —
Interviewer: The bomb.
DM: Gasometer. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. Anyway, they did a couple of runs and a couple of bombs each probably was all they dropped. But nevertheless they were pretty good on the targets and, sorry the other one, another one was that they dropped one, well, we started playing golf again when they’d gone but within about half an hour somebody come running across the golf course saying, ‘You’ve got to report back. There’s been a bomb dropped on your hotel,’ which did I say Cavendish or something like that?
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DM: I think it was probably. Yeah. And it had been dropped just on the side. There was a woman apparently got killed because the wall fell on her. She had a bike. She was just leaning her bike against a wall. But the bulk of the living area was not touched but of course, they wouldn’t let us go in straight away. So we were hanging about until later in the day, evening even and they said, ‘Oh we’re satisfied now.’ They thought there might be an unexploded bomb. But they said, ‘Well, you’ll be alright to go and get your stuff.’ And we did. And they moved us into one of the other hotels. I think I’m pretty sure whether that was Eastbourne I think.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Right. So you continued training at Eastbourne. Where was your next posting?
DM: I feel sure we went from there to the Wirral.
Interviewer: Which was to, was that to 10 AFU?
DM: Well, it was to go abroad, you know.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right. Right.
DM: What did they call those places?
Interviewer: Yeah. Yes.
DM: You see.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: I remembered the last time you were here but I can’t bring them to mind now. You know the port out in the —
Interviewer: Yes. Oh, the Mersey.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Do you know?
Interviewer: Yes, I know where you’re talking about. Yeah.
DM: You know what it is. Yeah. It was the collection point for us all RAF people anyway going abroad on boats.
Interviewer: So, you were held there for a short while and then —
DM: Yeah. Only a matter of days. I mean the only thing I can remember we got a kit bag with stuff in and you could also have a case and we had a pith helmet [laughs] and khaki shirt and shorts. So I think probably two sets.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: And we did wear them because —
[recording cuts]
DM: We were lucky enough to go to South Africa our lot. We went first into Liverpool and then I think we went on board the ship there but it didn’t set off like. A day or two later it went up to Gourock.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: On the Clyde. And we eventually set off from there.
Interviewer: Do you know what the ship was called?
DM: I did but I can’t remember now.
Interviewer: Right. So you get —
DM: But what I can tell you about it was a converted Australian meat boat [laughs] which with all the pipes for the refrigeration everywhere, weren’t on of course but nevertheless it was unfortunate in a way because it was like a cork on top of the water. It was. It was, I mean the few troops didn’t make any difference as regards to cargo as in comparison with cargo did it and so it was pretty bad for seasickness. However, I did manage, there was three options. You could sleep on the deck steel, you could sleep on the tables which were fixed or you could have a hammock if you were very lucky. And as soon as I heard the word hammock I thought right, that’s for me. And I did get one.
Interviewer: So you knew how to use it from your father did you?
DM: Well, yes. I had been in a hammock you know before. I don’t quite remember the circumstances but I know that’s what you wanted for a good nights sleep [laughs] Not sliding on the deck. However, I was very seasick for about fourteen days and did really nothing during the day and another chap sort of looked after me because he kept going and getting fruit and crisps and things and we spent the days outside on the deck despite the weather. But it was all rather unpleasant but as soon as I was able to get in the hammock I was fine and I had an excellent nights sleep. Well, I never woke at all you know. I just, it was just the fact that the hammock gives you so much more.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Stability.
Interviewer: So you went from Gourock. Where did you stop? Did you stop at Freetown on the way down?
DM: Yes. Well, we, they told us or somebody did that we’d been across almost to America and come back again to Freetown. It would have been, as I say fourteen days. That’s a long time to get to Freetown if you went directly wasn’t it?
Interviewer: Did you see any submarine activity or —
DM: No. No. No, there was one or two scares but we, no we didn’t see any action whatsoever fortunately.
Interviewer: When you got to Freetown were you allowed off the ship at all in Freetown?
DM: No. No. A few were but I wasn’t. The vast majority weren’t. But the natives came alongside. They called them, in their [unclear] boats I think it was. Something like that. Selling fruit and whatnot. A basket you know. Throw a rope up and you could haul it up and put the money in and then get your fruit. That was interesting but we didn’t see anything of the place.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: No.
Interviewer: So you then moved out from Freetown to where was your next port of call?
DM: Durban.
Interviewer: Durban.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. And you got off at Durban did you?
DM: Yes, Durban. We stayed on the ship overnight and then the next morning we were off and put on the train which was to go all the way to Queenstown. Well, Queenstown didn’t have a station but Johannesburg say, and that took us about three days if I remember rightly because you was travelling a long way. But the trains weren’t sort of going all the time express. So they took us down but they were very comfortable and that in itself was enjoyable. Saw all the scenery to be seen at different stages.
Interviewer: So you then get to Queenstown and that’s your, basically for your —
DM: Well, initially no. No, it was just a sort of, just a holding camp really. We did a little bit of work in lessons but very very little. Played tennis a lot and dug trenches but it was just, the trench wasn’t needed, you just did it for something to do.
Interviewer: Did you have a lot of contact with locals in Queenstown?
DM: Well, only shopkeepers.
Interviewer: Well, [unclear] so you were held at Queenstown. Then you moved to where? Where was your next posting?
DM: Well, Queenstown was the main one where you did navigation and bombing. It was ok because it was a good climate of course and there was a golf course right next to the field and also when you were on flying which was two or three mornings a week all aircraft had to be grounded by 1 o’clock because of the thermals and what not.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It was even dangerous because these were Ansons and —
Interviewer: I see, so this was after your training, proper training that was.
DM: That was. Oh yes.
Interviewer: In Queenstown.
DM: At Queenstown. Yes.
Interviewer: What aircraft were they using?
DM: Ansons and Oxfords. Yeah.
Interviewer: So you were doing some classwork were you?
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: And then —
DM: That’s right and then —
Interviewer: Flying work.
DM: Two or three days a week flying. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: So you were navigating the aircraft.
DM: They were all South African pilots. Air Force pilots.
Interviewer: So did you all take a turn to navigate the aircraft?
DM: Oh, no. Mostly you went just the one navigator in the aircraft.
Interviewer: Oh right. So you were just observing.
DM: I think there were maybe odd times when two or three went up and did part, at least did part of it but mostly and the same for the bombing you know. It was just a matter of one aircraft one student.
Interviewer: You went up with your pilot and did —
DM: Well, it was a different pilot every time.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. But you were practicing something you’d learned in the classroom or whatever.
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: On your own.
DM: We’d done charts and just basic navigation.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Because you know all you’d got was the [pause] well you wouldn’t call them a computer thing did they?
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: There was nothing electrical about it
Yeah
It was just you did it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I can’t remember what the name —
Interviewer: The navigators. Yeah. Yeah
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s right.
Interviewer: So you —
DM: And a chart.
Interviewer: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DM: We came and got back here.
Interviewer: Right. So you worked on your navigation at Queenstown.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: How long were you at Queenstown for?
DM: Oh, I don’t know. [pause] I should think it could have been something around two to three months.
Interviewer: Right. So by that time you were a sort of fundamentally qualified navigator.
DM: Well, yes.
Interviewer: Bomb aimer.
DM: We didn’t get stripes then.
Interviewer: No. No, but —
DM: We were moved down to a Gunnery School on the south coast. Where the heck did they [pause] Would that be in the —
Interviewer: Yes.
[recording paused]
DM: Still on Ansons. One block there. Ansons. It doesn’t say where it is.
Interviewer: Oh right. So you were at 43 Air School.
DM: Yes. Yes, that’s down on the south coast.
Interviewer: Yeah. Doing gunnery. Yeah.
DM: Yes. That’s right. In a turret. Flying at drogues. That’s all it was really and, and it looks as if there was a bit of bombing mixed up with that but I don’t remember. It was one of the photography and sim, simulated bombing I guess that would be.
Interviewer: So you left that station. Did you come back to the UK then?
DM: Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: I got the stripes there.
Interviewer: So you were passed out. You’re now a fully trained observer.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So back on the ship.
DM: Yes. Well, we went from this camp to Cape Town. We’d landed at Durban when we arrived and of course [that would be mine] of course. Then at, we were going back via Cape Town which was again sort of a long journey. We slept overnight I remember and we went across the Karoo Desert, I think, partly. Anyway, got down to Cape Town and that was quite a good set up and as it turned out we had to wait nearly a fortnight for the ship.
Interviewer: Was that in Cape Town [laughs] Nice.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: In the time that you were in South Africa perhaps at your holding camp at Queenstown did you have much contact with the locals at all?
DM: Well, not a lot. While we were at the first place near sort of between Jo’burg and Pretoria we used to go into Johannesburg. We weren’t too popular in Pretoria. A lot of the [unclear] as they called themselves they were very anti. Pro-German.
Interviewer: This was the Boers.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: The Dutch.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: So Johannesburg was the place to go and there was the Jewish group and, who I don’t know now but there was about four parties who were falling over themselves to give us hospitality [laughs] and they each had a floor of a big building and it was with single, full of single beds. Not too close together but they were, and they were only too pleased if you chose then to stay. And if I remember rightly it was sixpence a night. So there we are.
Interviewer: So you went into Johannesburg on your leaves with your friends.
DM: Well, weekends and that sort of thing
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: Went in to Joburg and also through the [unclear] It was put around that you could actually have a holiday on a farm or something like that and a friend and I we went together. Oh dear [pause]. I can’t tell you that but it was a fair little journey on a, on the train of course and we were met by the people and you see I can’t even bring their name to mind now. But they were English and they had a couple of daughters. One was away permanently at the time. The other was at school and she came home the last day before we left. So we did just meet her and she was in her sort of mid-teens I suppose. And whilst we were there well they met us with a huge great Buick car and this sort of thing and it was very pleasant and they did us proud.
Interviewer: So it was a great contrast to get to South Africa where there was plenty of food.
DM: Oh yes. Absolutely.
Interviewer: There were no blackouts.
DM: No. No shortage of anything.
Interviewer: Life’s normal.
DM: Yes. Absolutely.
Interviewer: So you get back to Cape Town and you get, you’re held there for a couple of weeks, back on your ship.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Any problems on the way?
DM: Which was, no. It was the Orion which was a pleasure cruiser which I’d seen previously because it used to come into Immingham and go on midnight sailing trips [laughs] And also the, we had all the first class cabins because they had, as somebody said I think it was four thousand Italian POWs down below and they were taking them, bringing them here to England. And we had, there was a certain amount of guard duty to do, you know but they were very friendly. Didn’t want any trouble because we had a rifle you see but we didn’t have the ammunition in the gun but you did have it in a pocket. But it was all a bit of a joke but I don’t think, I mean all they wanted to do was get off the ship. I don’t think they wanted any other sort of trouble. Didn’t want to take over or anything like that. And so it was a very pleasant trip back. No sickness. Magnificent. It was a different type of ship. Built for that sort of thing where this other thing as I say a transport vessel. I mean it was just not the right thing to travel in.
Interviewer: Did you stop at Freetown again on the way back?
DM: No.
Interviewer: You went straight.
DM: All the way.
Interviewer: Straight home.
DM: Straight home. Yeah.
Interviewer: Cape Town.
DM: No convoy. No nothing.
Interviewer: On your own.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
[recording cut]
Interviewer: So you arrived back in England.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: I think the next place you go to is 10 AFU, is it?
DM: That’s right. Yes. Just a little thing. I arrived. We arrived back, I think at Gourock where we’d gone from and I got home the day before my twenty first birthday funnily enough. Anyway, yes then we went to [pause] Well, no. No. We had a spell at Harrogate. I think everybody did, didn’t they?
Interviewer: So to the holding. The holding camp at Harrogate.
DM: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: Yes, during which —
Interviewer: Where did you stay in Harrogate?
DM: In the hotels. One of the best hotels. Yes, and, you know we used to march around the streets a bit but I mean there was, we weren’t, you didn’t. You walked around [laughs] We weren’t in the mood for a lot of flash marching. But then they said, well, you know you can’t just stay here and they sent us on leave twice. Just because there was, well literally I suppose thousands of —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: People had been trained in Canada and America. South Africa. Even Australia, I think. A few. And they were all coming to Harrogate and they couldn’t accommodate them you see. So anyway, they said, ‘Right, you’re going on an assault course.’ And this was up near Newcastle and gave you a khaki outfit and a gun and hard hat and all the rest of it we played at that you know for maybe a fortnight. It was interesting anyway.
Interviewer: Do you know whereabouts that camp was especially when you —
DM: No. All I remember it was in the vicinity of Newcastle but I’m not sure where.
Interviewer: Right. So they entertained you for a fortnight.
DM: We were on the seaside.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: At the seaside.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That was another thing and it was good weather because this by this time it would be about maybe May. April May certainly because my birthday in March.
Interviewer: So that’s May of 1943.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Right. Right.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So after you’ve been playing at the seaside where did you next go?
DM: Is that right? [pause] I don’t know. I’ll have to think about it really.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I came back from south Africa and I was twenty one in the March. And well it, that would be obviously ’43. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: From ’40. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: So where did you go after your assault course?
DM: Back to Harrogate. Did the same thing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Over again.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But only for a few weeks and then they sent us on leave or sent me on leave and got to go ‘cause it meant, they said you know the plan is that you would get a telegram telling you where to report. And the next thing I did was they sent up to Dumfries on another short course of bomb aiming and whatnot in a Botha would you believe because they were death traps apparently [laughs] However, survived that and then —
Interviewer: Was that a bombing and gunnery school was it? Dumfries.
DM: It was. Yes. That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yes. And I think maybe back to Harrogate but I’m not sure about that. But in any case —
[recording cuts]
DM: The next stage was we got the telegram which said to report to Bruntingthorpe.
Interviewer: Which is 29 OTU.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. So you’re up there in what you’d call a proper career move really —
DM: Oh yes. We were getting into —
Interviewer: So when you arrived at Bruntingthorpe were you allocated a crew or did you pick a crew up when you —
DM: No. No. We were all mixed up together you know. Not sure how many but I would thought maybe something like twenty of each trade. Five trades.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Involved there. The pilot and I got together. I can’t remember exactly how —
Interviewer: So that’s —
DM: I liked him, he liked me and we sort of went from there to pick the other members of the crew.
Interviewer: So that’s, is that Tony Wright?
DM: Tony Wright. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. So you two got together originally and then you picked the other three.
DM: We did. Yes.
Interviewer: To make the crew up.
DM: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Which would be —
DM: I think the first chap we got was the wireless operator George Allen.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And we were attracted to him because of his whole demeanour and the fact that he was at least ten years older than us and we thought well he’d only come in late because he was in the building business. No. Not building but building materials. Imports and that sort of thing in London. So —
Interviewer: So that, that’s your wireless operator.
DM: Yes. And then next was the [pause] you see I don’t think they had —
Interviewer: You had a bomb aimer wouldn’t you?
DM: Oh yeah. Bomb aimer and rear gunner.
Interviewer: Right so —
DM: That was it.
Interviewer: Was your original bomb aimer a chap called Rennie?
DM: Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s right. Canadian.
Interviewer: Canadian.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah. And who was your original air gunner?
DM: The Australian.
Interviewer: Oh, Cook.
DM: Cook. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Tony Cook.
Interviewer: Right. So that’s, that’s, your that’s the five who set off from the OTU.
DM: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: And is that crew formed very early on then at OTU?
DM: Well, it’s the first thing to do really.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: Was to get crewed up. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. You arrived there, you formed into a crew.
DM: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Now was that done in the apocryphal way in the hangar you had to find yourself five people?
DM: No.
Interviewer: Or did you just accumulate —
DM: No. It was more in the Mess I think then. We were all sergeants at the time and you know just talked to as many people as you could really and see what you thought to them and some of them were sort of possibles but others were sort of discarded thinking no, we don’t want that. I had one offer myself. There was a squadron leader who had only just himself qualified as a pilot or fairly recently. He’d obviously been in the Air Force and he asked me if I would be his navigator but I sort of mulled it over and thought I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I’ll stay with the boys.
Interviewer: Right. The fact that you’d get together.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: At Bruntingthorpe and what were you flying there? Wellingtons? Wellingtons?
DM: Wellingtons yes.
Interviewer: Wellingtons. So you start off.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Working as a crew.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: On Wellingtons.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And what sort of things do you do at OTU?
DM: Well
Interviewer: Cross country, night flying
That’s right. Yes. A whole range of things I suppose. Where are we? [pause pages turning] Is that? No, it’s South Africa isn’t it? AFU. That’s not much. [unclear] That was —
Interviewer: Yes. There we are.
DM: [unclear]
Interviewer: Here we are.
DM: Oh, from here. August. That’s right. Yes. Well, cross country’s there and again I think is the red for night time?
Interviewer: I think so.
DM: Yeah. But they weren’t with our own pilots. There’s sergeant right there, number thirteen but the others is Warrant Officer James, Flying Officer Heath, right, right, right, right, right. Flight Lieutenant Perry.
Interviewer: So occasionally you were taken by another pilot but generally speaking —
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: You were working as a crew.
DM: That’s right. Odd things you know you went even as a second navigator.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Without actually doing any desk work but sort of looking out and saying, because I went on one of those and they were completely lost and I was looking out of the dome and I’d been keeping following it map reading. So I came on the intercom. I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you that’s — ’whatever it was, I can’t remember that now you see but I said, ‘That down there is —’ so and so. ‘So start from there.’
Interviewer: So the navigator got completely lost.
DM: Yeah. He hadn’t a clue and his pilot hadn’t either.
Interviewer: So your basic navigation skills at this stage are dead reckoning.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Which is —
DM: We did get Gee.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: We did get gee there but not H2S or whatever it was.
Interviewer: So at OTU you had trained on Gee.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: But your basic fundamentals are dead reckoning.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Which was trying to lay a track.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: According to the wind basically.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you go A to B at a certain speed.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Apart of the wind and that tells you hopefully where you are.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: You had done astro navigation.
DM: Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: But was it ever practical to use it?
DM: If it was it was probably only once. I really don’t remember.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: But —
Interviewer: And then on your calculation of wind drift how was that done? Was that done by flairs dropped from the aircraft by the gunner or —
DM: Well, I don’t know. It was [pause] I don’t know. I can’t remember. Sorry.
Interviewer: Yeah. Ok. So you get at OTU you are introduced to Gee.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you are getting more modern.
DM: Yes. That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Was it easy to understand Gee and work?
DM: I didn’t find it difficult. No. Pretty easy.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Maths and that sort of thing was my strong subject. I wasn’t all that good at anything else [laughs] but algebra, geometry and arithmetic I was always from the age of probably fourteen I was always the top of the class.
Interviewer: Goodo. Did you get picked up by the RAF somewhere and that’s why you became a navigator? Or was it entirely —
DM: No. It may have been. It may have been the school certificate showed that. I was also good at religion funnily enough [laughs] I don’t know why. Go on. Anyway —
Interviewer: Yes. Yes. So when you went at OTU at Bruntingthorpe were there many accidents?
DM: Well, I don’t think so. I don’t. I can’t remember anything.
Interviewer: Ok. Life went, so you’re evolving as a crew.
DM: Yes
Interviewer: Getting used to the job.
DM: Used to it.
Interviewer: Getting on.
DM: Going on the intercom with other people or having them on board with us even. That sort of thing. But that was all but at the we then went to Winthorpe near Newark.
Interviewer: Yeah, which is —
DM: The heavy, the Conversion Unit
Interviewer: Unit. Yeah.
DM: And you got the other two members of the crew.
Interviewer: Right. So your new members of the crew would be then Richard Anderson was the air gunner. Is that right?
DM: Was he?
Interviewer: He was when you were lost it was that Anderson was it?
DM: Oh yes. Yeah. That’s right. It would be Andy. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. And your flight engineer.
DM: Yes. Of course. Yeah.
Interviewer: Who is?
DM: English.
Interviewer: English.
DM: He wasn’t our own engineer. That was —
Interviewer: Oh no, it wasn’t. It wasn’t. So who was your flight engineer? Can you remember?
DM: Oh, he was a Welsh lad [pause] No. I can’t remember. I’m sorry.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: I haven’t had much contact with him. Not even straight afterwards. Not like the others.
Interviewer: So at Heavy Conversion Unit you were flying —
DM: Yes. Excuse me he wasn’t with us at the time because he was shot down a week or so before we were.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: With another crew you know as a spare bod.
Interviewer: Oh right. So he’d gone as spare bod.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Ok.
DM: That’s why English came and joined us. Because he was the engineer for the ones who got lost.
Interviewer: Right [laughs] They swapped over.
DM: They, you know he was spare because the rest of his crew had —
Interviewer: Gone down. Yeah. At Heavy Conversion Unit what were you flying? Halifaxes?
DM: Well, we did fly once in a Halifax without any great enthusiasm.
Interviewer: Not on Stirlings
DM: Would it be just the two engines was it?
Interviewer: No. Halifax was four.
DM: I know the Halifax well we did have one going on the Halifax because there was also one where they only had two engines. Was that the forerunner of the Halifax.
Interviewer: Oh, Manchester. Manchester.
DM: Manchester.
Interviewer: Manchester. So, you flew Manchesters did you?
DM: Just once [laughs] yes.
Interviewer: And you weren’t too happy with it.
DM: Well, no. Well, you know we were alert.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That was about it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It hadn’t got the right sort of power.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And this sort of thing.
Interviewer: Yeah. So did you fly Lancs at all at Heavy Conversion Unit?
DM: Yeah. Oh yes. We did go onto Lancs mainly.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: I feel sure. Where wouldn’t that be in here. It doesn’t show me.
Interviewer: Yes, it will I think. Yeah, it’s the next —
DM: 29 OTU.
Interviewer: OTU. Here we are. Lancs. Manchester. That’s right.
DM: Oh, there we are. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. You were flying yeah in Manchesters.
DM: Right.
Interviewer: Oh actually. You did one trip in a Wellington.
DM: Oh Wellington. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: But you did two trips, three trips in a Manchester.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then you went on to Lancasters.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: How did you feel about flying in a Lancaster?
DM: Well, looked forward to it really thinking this is the aircraft of the day.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: So there was nothing there. But as I say, that, are we at Winthorpe now?
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Yes. Well, fortunately we came out top crew. And they sent us a bonus sort of thing. You can go to Scampton on a month course concentrating on H2S.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: Because we’d not, we’d sort of seen it but we hadn’t really used it at OTU.
Interviewer: Who usually operated the H2S set? The navigator?
DM: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: So was it by him.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: In your cubicle.
DM: That’s right. Yes. It was there like the Gee thing used to be.
Interviewer: Gee box. Yeah. Right so you’re sat in a Lancaster. You’ve got pilot in the left-hand seat. The flight engineer in the dickie seat and you’re behind.
DM: Behind the pilot. Sitting.
Interviewer: Facing the fuselage.
DM: Facing port. Right.
Interviewer: Right. So you’ve got your desk in front of you.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Where’s your Gee box?
DM: There.
Interviewer: On the right.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And where’s your H2S set?
DM: Same as far as I remember.
Interviewer: Right. So they’re both on the right.
DM: Oh no. We didn’t need, we didn’t have a Gee box when you’d got the H2S.
Interviewer: Oh, I see so you’d either have Gee —
DM: Yes. Oh yes.
Interviewer: Or H2S.
DM: We would say goodbye to that.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: And H2S which was much more.
Interviewer: Now, what else did you have? Did you have an airspeed indicator in your —
DM: No.
Part 2.
DM: Every three minutes was obviously the plan which was good in a way because it kept you very busy and the time went quickly whereas for other members of the crew I imagine it seemed a long time.
Interviewer: Now, was that the fix you got from your H2S set?
DM: Yes. It was. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: So before your flight then when you had the flight route —
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Marked on your map.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And then you worked out where you were on that preferred route.
DM: Yes. Yeah. So it was more or less a case of giving adjustments to see if we weren’t off tracked.
Interviewer: Off Route. Yeah. Ok. Right. So you got your Gee box or H2S set.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Your desk. And you’ve got your protractor, pencils, Phillips computer they called it.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. And your maps.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Right. And that’s [unclear] was going. And you’re in quite a good position I hear because isn’t that the warmest place in the aircraft. the navigator’s position.
DM: I suppose it was yes. We didn’t, but none of us wore anything except battledress.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: With, well we did have some long johns and vests with sleeves to wear on operations and then just your battle dress.
Interviewer: What about the gunners? Did they have anything? You can’t remember.
DM: Could have but I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Right. Ok. So you get to Scampton to do H2S. To do an H2S course.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And then you went. You had other duties.
DM: We were designated to ’57 Squadron before we started that course.
Interviewer: Oh right. Ok.
DM: You go into the room. They have you at Scampton for a month before you actually joined the squadron.
Interviewer: Now, that’s something —
DM: Officially, we —
Interviewer: At some point you lost your wireless operator didn’t you?
DM: Well, no. Not [pause] what happened there was that George Allen —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: This chap older than the rest of us he had a carbuncle came up on his hand. He couldn’t operate the key so he went into the sickbay. They wanted him in bed for a day or two.
Interviewer: Oh right.
DM: So they could take him.
Interviewer: So he missed the operation when you were lost.
DM: Absolutely. And —
Interviewer: So you’ve got a flight engineer who went with another crew and went missing.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And your wireless operator was away.
DM: He is.
Interviewer: Having an operation.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So the crew that went on the final operation was five of the originals plus —
DM: Two.
Interviewer: A strange wireless operator and a strange flight engineer.
DM: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. Ok. Right.
DM: Just you a bit about George Allen, he was such a nice bloke and when we were all friends we spent hours and hours, days, weeks to Spain. Spain with the caravans and all sorts with him. He’s dead of course now because he was that much older but he, he said that the corporal came to see him in the sick bay and he said, ‘I knew what he was coming for.’
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And you know he knew we had not come back.
Interviewer: So —
DM: However —
Interviewer: George Allen then was put with another crew and he survived.
DM: No. Oddly enough he did quite a bit more flying but he being older I think I don’t know maybe he talked to somebody or somebody took pity on him. I don’t know it if it was pity but they commissioned him and he became signals leader on the squadron and he did spare bod trips when required.
Interviewer: Oh right. So he, he became [pause] right. He became the [pause] right —
DM: So he actually got in more.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Proper trips than we ever did of course.
Interviewer: Now, your original flight engineer.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: What happened to him? The one that was lost with another crew? Was he captured or was it did he —
DM: No. No. He was a POW.
Interviewer: He was a POW.
DM: Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: Not with, not in my, not the same camp as me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Or we’d have made contact.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But no.
Interviewer: Right.
[recording cut]
Interviewer: Ok. So, you do your course. You arrive at 57 Squadron which is based at —
DM: East Kirkby.
Interviewer: East Kirkby. Right. Now, did your [pause] Oh yea. Yes. That’s right. The CO was Fisher. Did you ever meet the CO? [Little Knock?]
DM: I can’t remember. No.
Interviewer: Or your flight commander?
DM: Well, I expect so. Yes. Actually, I did have the first of the preliminary interviews for commissioning but that’s as far as it went. You had to survive [laughs] a bit longer.
Interviewer: Can you remember who your navigation leader was?
DM: I can’t.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: No.
Interviewer: Ok. Ok. Right, so presumably Tony Wright went on an operation on his own with another crew as second dickie.
DM: Yeah. I think you might be right.
Interviewer: You can’t remember.
DM: I’m not sure.
Interviewer: Right. So your first operation is Hagen.
DM: No. No. Frankfurt.
Interviewer: Frankfurt. Oh right. So on the, that’s, that’s the 4th and 5th of October 1943.
[pause]
DM: What day?
Interviewer: October ’43.
DM: October.
Interviewer: Oh no. No. That’s —
DM: November.
Interviewer: Here we are. 57 Squadron.
DM: Oh, I see.
Interviewer: A cross country. Cross country. Here we are. Frankfurt.
DM: Oh, that’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: So that is the 20th of December, sorry.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So the 20th of December was your first operation.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. To Frankfurt.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: And how did things go?
DM: Well, it was quite nothing to speak of really. It all went according to plan and we had no problems. And —
Interviewer: No aircraft —
DM: Took six hours, five minutes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: By the look of it.
Interviewer: So, you had no problems at all. Right.
DM: No. No. Nothing amiss there.
Interviewer: So your next operation is 2nd and the 3rd of January ’44.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: When you go to Berlin.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Presumably, had you done the, anything happen? Was the weather bad or something in 1943 or you just weren’t on the list.
DM: Well no. The only thing [pause] I’m not sure now regrettably whether it was Frankfurt or Berlin but on one of those there were two incidents. The bomb aimer came up from down below and what for I didn’t understand and so did the wireless operator and they’d both lost their oxygen by then. Anyway, I grabbed a couple of portable ones and fixed them both up with them and that was it. They came back to normal [laughs] but it was like they were semi drunk.
Interviewer: Yeah. [laughs] That’s oxygen narcosis.
DM: It’s something.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It’s shortage of oxygen.
Interviewer: Oxygen.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. Quite. Now also I’m not sure. I think that’s probably the Berlin one where we came back and we were circling East Kirkby and I got my bag, all my stuff in my bag and I’D finished sort of thing. We’re here. And we landed and got out of the aircraft and into a truck driven by a girl which we weren’t used to. I mean we hadn’t been used to anything never mind the girls but anyway she stopped and two or three of them all said, ‘We don’t want to be here. We’re 57 Squadron.’
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: They said, well there’s or 630 Squadron also —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: At East Kirkby.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: She said, ‘There’s no 57 Squadron here.’ [laughs] And we’d landed at Strubby. So we were all for getting back in and going home like. Going.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: They wouldn’t wear that of course.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: So they took us in a lorry and we did our debriefing, went to bed and so on and then later the next day we went and got the aircraft.
Interviewer: And you went back to [pause] yes.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: East Kirkby.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. So —
[recording cuts]
Interviewer: Your next operation and the final operation is the 27th and the 28th of January.
DM: Yeah, which is —
Interviewer: When you go to Berlin.
DM: That’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. Ok.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Right. Now, on your, on your last operation just generally did your crew have any particular habits, mascots, things you did before you go to an operation?
DM: Not as far as I’m aware. No.
Interviewer: Right. So this was the final operation. You go to briefing.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Now, the navigators that were briefed independently to start with, weren’t they?
DM: Oh yes. We used to do. Complete the maps and things.
Interviewer: The navigation leader would show you whatever.
DM: Go through the route.
Interviewer: Go through the route.
DM: Absolutely. Yes.
Interviewer: Did they tell you about the flak positions or things like that to avoid?
DM: I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Right. So basically, you’re given —
DM: Possibly they did but I can’t remember.
Interviewer: They gave you the route to follow.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: You put it on your maps.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: You then go, the next thing is is the full crew briefing isn’t it?
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Right and then they, everyone talks about the mets and —
DM: That’s a bit later in the day and then you go from that straight to the dispersal.
Interviewer: Right. So you had your aircrew breakfast hopefully. A meal.
DM: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. So you had your final briefing. You then put on your kit. Off to your aircraft.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Right. Now, when you get to the aircraft what’s, what’s the navigator’s job? Just get in the aircraft. That’s it.
DM: Well, yes. Yes. It is. To go up the ladder and get the stuff out on the table ready to go. There wasn’t really anything else wants to do.
Interviewer: So, the pilot and the flight engineer have to check the aircraft externally.
DM: Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer: And sign for it.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Ok.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: So did anything particularly happen on this night that you’re —
DM: Well, as I said —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: We went to dispersal from about 4:30 and took off at 5:40 apparently. Well, as we went on to the dispersal before we ever got a step on the ladder a corporal came up and he said, ‘Now, we don’t want it here when you come back because it’s due for a major overhaul. So we want it up there by the hangar.’ And anyway, he kept on about this. ‘Don’t bring it back here.’ And even when we started to taxi he was still shouting to the wind. ‘Don’t bring it back here.’ [laughs] So that [laughs] was a bit odd but nevertheless we, the bombing was ok. There were no incidents on the way out. Stuck to the route and —
Interviewer: Was there a lot of dog legs on the route to the meeting point?
DM: No, not really. We went south before we went over to the coast but then from then on it was not far from straight to Berlin. There were kinks maybe here and there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Having dropped the bombs we went straight on again I would think for at least twenty thirty miles. Then we turned just west of south and it was before we got to the end of that leg about fifty or sixty miles along it that we started with the fire and so on.
Interviewer: What, what happened?
DM: Well, the thing was that in the, in the event it was a case of there was a bang. Not [unclear] but it was obviously some sort of explosion and somebody said, ‘Oh, the starboard inner is on fire.’
Interviewer: So, it was a mechanical problem.
DM: Possibly. Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And so I just pulled the curtain back and had a look and it didn’t amount to much and the engineer feathered the propeller so that it stopped and the pilot said, ‘Right. You’d better find your parachutes. You never know.’ [laughs] And I entered, I was entering this up in the log and with that it must have been no more than about five minutes later from the first bang, ten at the most, the pilot said, ‘Christ, look at this.’ And the whole of the port wing was virtually opened up in flames.
Interviewer: But as far as you know you weren’t attacked by an aircraft.
DM: Nothing at all. Well, several of us had doubts about it. You know there was all sorts of possibilities. It could just be mechanical failure particularly as we were due for a major overhaul. Could even have been sabotage was one theory. Somebody could have. The aircraft was parked not far from the main road. Not a main road of course but it wasn’t out in the country. Somebody had somehow or other slipped something in there to go off at certain times. You just never know. The Irish for instance. But there was absolutely nothing and we had a first-class crew as I’ve said. I mean the rear gunner and the mid-upper they were very sharp and neither of them saw anything. The bomb aimer didn’t see anything not the pilot of course. But that’s just how it happened and it moved on swiftly to, the pilot said, ‘Right, you’d best get out.’ And that we did. The bomb aimer was down there anyway getting the hatch out. The engineer was watching him, you know [laughs] Hurry. I was then next.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s right. And behind me was the wireless operator thumping on my back.
Interviewer: You all went out the front. The front bit.
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: We did. Yes. And I said, ‘Hang on, hang on, they haven’t got the thing out yet.’ You know. But anyway, we soon got down there and we went. Again, personally I remember going through sheets of flame but nothing else. I was unconscious almost immediately. I don’t even recollect pulling the rip cord but I probably had it in my hand. Must have had, I suppose, mustn’t I? Nothing else would pull it would it? [laughs] And that was it, you know. No sight of the aircraft or anything else. I was unconscious. Somewhere on the way down I regained consciousness and thought oh dear, here we are and the, it was swinging as they do and the drill was to get hold of the ropes and pull to stop this. But at that point before I’d even made one pull, out again unconscious. And the next thing that I knew was I was easing myself up into a sitting position in a forest with a parachute partly held up in the trees but I wasn’t on it sort of thing fortunately and about a foot of snow everywhere.
Interviewer: So do you think you hit your head on something getting out the aircraft?
DM: Well, yes. I found out, not for two or three days later I found that I had a cut straight across the top of my head. I had hair of course so [laughs] it wasn’t quite so evident. But and that’s all I knew and there was, there was a possibility as I say going through these flames and there were aerials at [unclear] weren’t there? It’s just a possibility but I really don’t know.
Interviewer: Right.
[recording cuts]
Interviewer: You land on the ground. Have you guys still got your boots on?
DM: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Because you were quite lucky because often they —
DM: Well, I had one of the new type but the Canadian he lost one of his boots and that put paid to his escape.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But I had the new black ones and the knife in the top where you cut off the top.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And I did. I went to all the trouble of doing that there and then I think. Maybe not even waited until the next morning.
Interviewer: So you had your escape boots on. You cut it down to a shoe.
DM: A shoe.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: What was your first thought when you landed? You woke up and —
DM: Well, that was a bit odd. I mean I was sort of sitting there and thinking, you know is this really happening? Virtually pinched myself to thinking well maybe I’m dreaming all this. But not so. Anyway, I first of all as I say I was on the ground and I sort of undid the parachute harness and sat up and then I got up on my feet and fell down. Again, tried it again and fell down. Now, my father had given me one of those tiny flak bottles of navy rum and his idea was if you come down in the drink this just might save your life. So I thought now is the time for the rum and so I had a half of it probably and I could stand up then [laughs] Foolishly I went and found, out of the forest and to a village and there was dogs barking and this that and the other. You know I was obviously not fully compos mentis you know because of what I was doing. But I did walk in there for a little bit. Nobody came out. This would be around 9 o’clock. Nine to 10 o’clock.
Interviewer: Do you know which village?
DM: In the evening.
Interviewer: Which village you were near?
DM: I have no idea because I didn’t see any more of it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But then I went back in to the forest and eventually laid down in the snow and went to sleep. Woke up. I don’t know quite how long I’d slept but I woke up and I was like a board myself because of the temperature.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And I’d got as I say the battledress. I even lost my helmet. And then, well shall we have a look at the date because I’ve got —
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Yeah. [unclear] yeah.
DM: 28th of January. I hid in the forest all day and I found a railway line nearby and walked in an easterly direction on it at night. The following day I hid/slept at the foot of the stack. Rain all day. Walked to the station at Lübbenau. L U B B E N A U. Tried to board a train but unsuccessful. Slept on stack in the railway yard.
Interviewer: So your intention was try to get to Belgium or France.
DM: Well, yeah. Tried. The thing was that we’d had a lecture from a chap who came around. Not just that one but this particular chap he’d got back having been shot down in that sort of area and he got to Stettin and he got, was lucky enough to get on a ship to Sweden. I think it was Sweden rather than Norway and he was, they’d got him home of course and he was going around the stations telling us this tale.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Which he’d managed to do it. So, I thought well here I am. It’s an awful long way to make for France and go on that way which wouldn’t have been any better possibly anyway but —
Interviewer: So you were trying to get to Stettin.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: And, you know it would be obviously a gamble but also maybe pretty unlikely. I don’t know whether he was the only one who ever did it but could have been so.
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s alright. So you tried to get on a train. Yeah. So, that was the 30th. Yes.
DM: The 30th. Yes. I woke at dawn and went into the fields. I checked the canal and found the canal which is comes up later and a small Dutch barn. In the evening I returned to the canal. I beg your pardon I returned to Lübbenau but no train stopped. I discovered a three inch cut on the top of my head and scratches on my face. Nothing to eat at this stage. Water from a field dyke in the rubber bag.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you had your escape kit with you.
DM: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah. Which had the water purifying —
DM: No. Just a bag.
Interviewer: Just a bag to carry the water in.
DM: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And —
Interviewer: Horlicks tablets and —
DM: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yes. That sort of thing.
Interviewer: Get it quite —
DM: I’d had a few of those of course.
[recording cuts]
DM: Yes, well on the 31st I was in a Dutch barn. At daylight I saw workmen heading for a canal and I followed. I was seen by them and one man on a bicycle shouting to me to stop, in French and he turned out to be a French POW. So, you know it suddenly dawned on me he’s speaking French [laughs]. So, I stopped and he knew full well who I was and what I was about. That’s right. There was this group of French that I’d seen. They were all French prisoners of war working on the canal. They gave me food and beer and said to be in the same place the next morning. Oh, wait a minute. Have I done that right? [pause] Yeah. More or less. The thing was that I should have said that they came, the whole group of them came past near where —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I met the other Frenchman and two of them came to me and they gave me bread and a bottle of beer and that sort of thing straightaway from what they’d saved at lunchtime themselves.
Interviewer: Where was their camp? Was it at Lubenec?
DM: No, that was at Raddusch. Yes. Where are we? Saw the workmen [pause] Oh that’s right. That’s right. They came with this bread and stuff. Other things as well and a bottle of beer and they said to be in the same place the next morning. So of course, I went back to this Dutch barn to sleep and I was there in good time to see them come. On the 1st of February that should be, at 8 am they came and they brought more food and drink and a letter from Rene, which I call Rene [Danch] who was like a full, you know all these people of course had been in the Army full time, you know. They were conscripts. This was why they were prisoners of war. Rene [Danch] and he was like a sergeant major or a warrant officer, something like that and he had perfect English. But anyway, they came and they brought a letter from Rene. At 5pm two of them came in the forest with full French uniform to wear over my clothes and a beret. On train which was just a one coach thing [unclear] and we had to stand on the piece at the end which wasn’t enclosed, you know, rather than go and sit in the seats.
Interviewer: So what was, was this train just to take workmen?
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Backwards and forwards.
DM: They travelled on it daily.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: From Raddusch to this canal site.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And I had this khaki overcoat and trousers and beret and we just stood there. Then when we got off the train we went to Raddusch, R A D D U S C H. Rene came up beside me at the station, took my arm and started talking to me in English you see. I should say maybe at this stage that the reason he had this good English was that he’d escaped with our troops at Dunkirk and they’d been training and whatnot mainly up in Scotland although he didn’t have a Scottish accent [laughs] but nevertheless he’d learned the language very well and his German was fluent as well, and French. However, he was, you know he explained where they were and how things were there and helped me with whatever they could do.
Interviewer: So basically these chaps held camp.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: They’d get on a train each day to work. They’d come back on the train.
DM: That’s right. Well —
Interviewer: Unsupervised by the Germans.
DM: Well, slightly but only slightly.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It was a barn on a farm in the village of, or maybe it was a small town. I don’t know but they had it to themselves entirely. Ground floor and all blocked, you know paving but nothing going on in the way of farming. And they had all the downstairs and then they also had upstairs and they did their own thing. One of the number stayed at the camp all day and he had to cook a meal for them coming back in the evening. Then into the evening about 9 o’clock two German soldiers came just with rifles just to say, I don’t think they even bothered to count them but it was a routine sort of thing.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: And then that was it as far as they were concerned. But as far as the actual, on my first night there they talked to me for a while and then they said, ‘You’ll have to go upstairs,’ you know, ‘Because the Germans could turn up any time.’ Explained all this and then as soon as that was gone they, they had gone again. I could hear them walking on these cobbles of course. I knew they’d been and gone. And they said, you know they wanted to know this, that and the other but there was only him that had any real English. And then sort of had a party and they’d got a big board about so big and they’d done what you called, what you might call a glop. It was not cake. They’d made it up by mixing cake and chocolate and all that sort of thing and they had a cross of Lorraine and the big V like this and everybody was going to get a piece of this you see [laughs] And I said about the cross, you see ‘Oh the Cross of Loraine,’ I said. Oh, oh, you can imagine [laughs] Anyway, that was very good. They had beer, they had schnapps I think but I didn’t take part in much of that because I didn’t like the schnapps. But I had, I had a drink. I had a drink with them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And then when that was over we didn’t go out that evening but after that most evenings was work ‘til the Germans had departed. They used to take me out for a walk around the village. A little. Just three or four of us sort of thing. Just a bit of exercise because I had to spend all day up in this loft thing either on the bed or walking about. They had a big huge pile of potatoes in one corner which was, they’d got for their own use and this, that and the other. The person who was doing the catering [laughs] he used to bring me [pause] where are we? [Pause] Oh, breakfast was toast and American coffee. Lunch was chips, bread and margarine. I’ve got it here. Which goes on to another day that there was an American POW camp not too far away apparently because apart from this group who were working on the canal the other people mainly were working on the railways and several of them were as firemen on the locomotive and of course they were coming back with all the stories of the damage that was being done by the bombing so they were cheered with that. And anyway, they had also along the railways there was Americans there too, you see. Well, they spread the word amongst the Americans that they’d got me and so when they came back the second night they came back with what? Oh, that’s right. They sent me food, chocolates, cigarettes, a razor, soap and a note to which I replied. One of the Frenchmen in the camp I was in he fixed a large parcel of food which was intended for me to take with me when I left them.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: And I’d still keep the uniform and all that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: As a Frenchman. So that was good.
Interviewer: So how long did you stay with them?
DM: Well, the plan was as I say it again of course there were at another camp they claimed that they could probably get me in to a wagon which wouldn’t be open ‘til it got to Stettin and then it was up to me to get out of it and find a boat as best you can. And so —
Interviewer: So they were going to move you from their house, their farm to a camp.
DM: That’s right.
Interviewer: And from there you were going to get to Stettin.
DM: That’s correct. Yes. Then I took this box with me. Rene [Danch] and a friend, another one of them took me on a train in my French coat, trousers and beret to Cottbus. They had to fix up a [[unclear] for that. I don’t know how they did it but as far as I didn’t talk that’s all it needed. And when we got off the train at Cottbus there were two men waiting for us you see so we all went, all five of us and they said, they were saying among themselves obviously we’ll have a drink. So they go in to this [pause] I know where we are. It’s [pause] oh dear. Well, it’s sort of, it was a bar and it was quite large, a lot of tables and full of Germans nearly. Anyway, they got a place on the table and we all sat there together and had the beers and obviously there’s something they were doing regularly, you know. The Germans didn’t mind. They knew who they were and they were all welcome in the buffet [laughs] And anyway, then after maybe twenty minutes or so we we’d had the drink and so we all went outside and all shook hands and parted company. I went with the two from the big camp and Rene and his friend would return on the train no doubt to Raddusch. I’ve got the waiting room above there.
[recording cuts]
DM: Said goodbye to Rene and went with the other POWs to their camp.
Interviewer: This was on the 5th of —
DM: The 5th of February, yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. Now the next. Oh, no. No, this is still applicable to that day. It was we walked about one and a half miles and also whilst we were doing so it was evident that there was a raid. There was sirens going and a raid coming on. We thought it was British aircraft making a raid not far away but we didn’t know where. We got in to the camp and allocated a bed in two tiers. I was on the bottom and after all the guards had left because they had a similar thing. They didn’t have guards on the job, you know. It was a big camp.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But they didn’t bother to guard it day and night.
Interviewer: Did they just get up check they were there.
DM: That’s right. Yeah. From time to time. So, and then they ushered me into their sort of own little office where they, several of them could speak some English. There was a French man who I think was an officer and that was Saturday evening until the early hours and four or five other French people with this one particular one some with good English. Questions, questions, questions. ‘When are the Allies going to invade?’ And I said, ‘Well, soon.’ And assured them, you know that there were gliders everywhere waiting and various other obvious equipment that led you to believe that it couldn’t be long which cheered them up no end. Then eventually to bed about 2am and I stayed in the camp. Supposedly this is the next day [crank] ill in bed, no problem but I was bitten all over by fleas. In the evening they were tipped off about a possible search by the Gestapo so I was taken by two other people to an empty cottage near Cottbus. The plan to come back. Their plan was to come back the next evening and get me into this goods wagon to Stettin. The railway [pause] oh yeah, that was it. There was just one Frenchmen. One of the same Frenchmen came the next evening. I had to stay in this cottage. It was completely empty and there was nothing close by but I could see a lot of people on the roads and railway and so on because they were, you know nearby. After all you know they couldn’t do it. They made me feel better. I mean with the biggest [unclear] was getting out of the damned thing wasn’t it?
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: You know if there’s nobody outside to help.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: So maybe it was a blessing. However, I stayed the night and the next day close to road and railway watching all day with several scares but nothing happened.
[recording cuts]
DM: I left the cottage and walked to the rail track. On the 8th of February I left the cottage at dusk on the rail track. No luck with trains. Too fast. Went into the fields in daylight. Snow and hail all day. Walked into Peitz, P E I T Z the village at [pause] I haven’t said where. But it was snowing. The train standing, oh yeah that’s right. There was a train standing in the station and I climbed into a box on the end of a goods wagon. They had those with the break wheels in didn’t they?
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: A little sentry box —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: On the end and a seat. Two stops where they offloaded some of the trucks between me and the engine and they actually uncoupled me. So, you know I thought oh dear I’m going to be stuck somewhere. They might even want to come up and put the brake on. However, they didn’t. They backed up and reconnected having dropped off a wagon or two and off we went and apart from the two stops there we went all the way to Frankfurt on Oder. The train stopped in the sidings. That was evident because you know there was no hissing or anything like that any longer to do with the brakes. Then I walked on the tracks northwards where I was planning to go. Heavy snow. There was a signal box up on an embankment and it was quite high up and as I walked by two Germans opened a window and they were both yelling at me and it took a little while to dawn on me that they were probably telling me to get out of the track because I was walking in the middle, the easiest place because there was a train coming up. And there I was. I was, you know I’d [laughs] I naturally very soon forgot about their warning and I was back in the middle of the track and a very close shave with a train came behind me and he, you know literally it wasn’t coming. It was there. You know, it was o, it had no intention of stopping and there was a lot of goods wagons on behind it. But anyway, they were both looking out but as soon, I turned around and saw it I thought ooh. I threw myself on to the side and we were actually on a bridge and there was a railing to grab and I was clear. They were, as I looked up and they were looking out straight at me thinking that they’d got me probably. Fortunately. Well, from their point of view it didn’t matter maybe but that was how it worked out and dived off the track on to the bridge. That’s right. I was wet through and about exhausted. I ‘saw’ a person walking ahead of me. I don’t know whether there was anybody or it was just an hallucination.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: However, I went on and eventually it became it was coming light and I spotted this barn at Lebus. L E B U S. I slept on the straw and awake at 10am. A young Russian, it turned out to be a young Russian, a young lad anyway came up the ladder because in this barn I got under the door to get in and on the left hand side was machinery and some straw and stuff but on the right you went up a ladder and the whole thing was full of straw leading to the roof. To the level anyway and the tile roof was up above. That’s right. Well, his eyes nearly popped out of his head because I was in my white long johns. Well, everything else was wet through you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I’d got down in the straw. He saw me and went to fetch another Frenchman who worked on the farm. He obviously you know thought best tell him and see what happened. Well, he took me to his camp in Lebus. Not the first night, I think it was the second night and gave me a meal which was good and he dried my clothes. Back to the barn at night. And then he brought me a large bottle of milk and food and took my clothes to dry then. I stayed in the barn all day because I hadn’t got the clothes back for one thing. Went across the road to the farm where the Russian boy and a girl lived and they were only in their teens and they were living together and sort of slave labourers on the farm like the Frenchman was in a way. They dried my shoes and I had a shave, slept in the barn and stayed there all day because there was no point in going out in the daylight you know because the roads were impassable apart from on foot. You couldn’t ride a bike on them anyway. Vehicles were alright obviously but it was pretty grim. And I went to the railway station Saturday night but no train passed through. Back to the barn before daylight proper and I slept again. Stayed in the barn on Sunday night. Awake about 8.30 am. That means the following day I think. About 10am a car, oh I should say at the end of the barn because the barn was separate from the farm. It was one side of the road and the farm was over the other side of the road and there was a bridge, air bridge really. It weren’t a [unclear] bridge and I could see the road and the farm fields and as I awake about 8.30.
[recording cut]
DM: About 10am a car pulled up outside the barn and three Gestapo men because of their boots and uniform and one soldier with a rifle came in to the barn. I was in straw in the, down in the straw.
[telephone ringing]
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. Just a minute. Hang on. Hang on.
[recording paused]
Right. Came in to the barn. I was down in the straw but was soon found and believed given away by some other Frenchman in the camp where they took me for a meal. It must have been. They took me across to the farmhouse and somebody made some coffee and they tried to question me. Well, they were hopeless. They had no English and all I kept saying, writing down or speak it was number, rank and name.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: From there we went out again and the solder with the rifle and I had told me to take me into the village. Anyway, we’d only got about a hundred yards if that and they came up —
Part 3.
DM: They put me in a little snug with a door and then a few minutes later they opened the door and the Frenchman was there in his braces and that was it sort of thing. I sort of just looked and then attempted to sort of show no recognition at least and then looked away and that was it. But he nodded or whatever they’d asked him. It was me. I was the one and they shut the door again. Just a few minutes later they opened up the door and said, ‘Come on out,’ and there was a huge brown table. You couldn’t have got it in this room and they said, ‘Sit down and everybody gets a beer,’ including me [laughs] Extraordinary really. Anyway, we were back in the car quite soon and we left the farm. Left the village there to go to the Gestapo offices in Frankfurt on Oder in the car. While I was there, I’ve got notes about this but I remember that the first thing of significance was I got out of the car and there was this magnificent building for the Gestapo Headquarters of that area and it had a staircase which took you up to only, well twice the height of our stairs and we had to go up in to this higher part. Later on it curved around and it took us literally about twenty minutes at least to get to the next floor because every few steps somebody came along and they were explaining to them, ‘Well, why? What’s —’ They all wanted to know [laughs] and of course they hadn’t seen much war at Frankfurt on Oder.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And anyway, we eventually got in there and the chap in charge was turned out to be really quite a toff. He was, you know, he said, ‘You can keep your own stuff.’ And the only thing that went missing was my two pounds and three half crown coins.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right.
DM: And the stuff I had in this box. Still kept it. Razor and all this sort of thing. They didn’t mind and well that was it for that time but at night I had to stay in the, in that place and there was nowhere properly secure but there was a lift and there was a space in between it about as big as half this room and they, you know gates, metal gates that were expanding and he explained that somebody who, somebody in the building would come up every hour and hold the bucket to it so that I could relieve myself if necessary. And there was nothing to sleep on at all. Just concrete floor and anyway I did sleep and then the next morning the man who was in charge oh, by the way there was another little thing was he said, ‘Do you want to freshen up?’ You know because there was sort of a private little wash place, toilet immediately off the office without going out and I said, ‘Right. Thank you.’ So I got my gear out, shaved, washed and this, that and the other. But then I still had to hang about there and all through the day there was girls coming in with a sheaf of papers you know, came to see this, well I don’t know what they would refer to me as but anyway at that stage and so you know but all excuses obviously. I mean the paperwork I think [laughs] ridiculous. They hadn’t seen one like me before. Anyway, in the afternoon another fella turned up on, a younger fella in his ordinary everyday suit so the cells, those who were dressed, those who were dressed right they were the bosses sort of thing. No, no jackboots for them and he said the best he could that we were going down the road to the civvy prison and he showed me a pistol in his jacket pocket sort of thing so you’re not running off. I said [laughs] ‘Right. I won’t be doing that.’ So he took me, you know in the mid-afternoon he took me to this prison. Well, it was a place which was literally hundreds of years old. The walls were at least three foot thick and very old. Stove pipes running up to give some comfort and they put me in a cell with a boy. Well, he wasn’t much more than a boy. A youth. And he was in his best suit. I didn’t get out of him why he was in there but some misdemeanour and we, despite him having no English, me having no German we carried on a conversation and I found out, he told me things which I understood about the Hitler jugend and things of that sort. And I told him things you know that I thought he ought to know. Anyway, when it came dark there was no light so the only thing was to go to bed. It was a two tier bunk. I begged to grab the bottom one and a blanket. Whatever, and of course I was very soon fast asleep because, you know I was tired anyway. Then at some point, I don’t, didn’t check the time but it would probably be around nine, 10 o’clock in the evening he was shaking the bed and with that there was, oh he was pointing up to the window which was right up there and there’s a huge red glow. And I thought ah. Theres something going on. It’s markers. You know. Pathfinders.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: With that, boom and one really big bang which was close but I mean it was evident there weren’t, well after a few minutes they weren’t going to come and move us from the cell. Walls three foot thick.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: You stood a chance of surviving anything like that so I got back on the bed and went to sleep. And the odd thing about this was that the next morning you know he was up when I woke up and he never spoke a word. He just looked at me all the time. He was flabbergasted or something of the sort. Not, didn’t utter a word. They brought us a couple of bowls of sort of a soup stuff. Nothing much stronger than that. And then possibly around 10 o’clock it was [pause] yeah a soldier came on his own. Another soldier with a rifle. He came for me. I noted it was probably about 10am and we went to the station. Oh no, we went back to the office first and they gave me these things that they’d kept you know and even the food and odds and ends. Not your French uniform of course. However, we were to catch a train to Berlin.
Interviewer: Had they interrogated you at all really?
DM: Well no. They had no ability.
Interviewer: There was no —
DM: Two or three people came and had a go but I mean —
Interviewer: They couldn’t speak English.
DM: No.
Interviewer: Right. Ok. Fine.
DM: No. Nothing really at all.
Interviewer: So roughly what date was this by this stage?
DM: Well, we were back to, down here to the 16th February.
Interviewer: Oh right. Fine. Ok.
DM: Yeah. It started, it was the 15th I think when they came to the farm.
Interviewer: Yeah. 16th.
DM: 16th 17th.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway, I decided as I said that there was just these markers. One bomb. sleuth attack to draw them off.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: From Berlin.
Interviewer: You got the train the following day.
DM: Yeah. Well, that’s right. He [pause] that’s right. A soldier came. That’s right. I’ve already said that haven’t I? On the train to Berlin. We got to the station but we’d missed the train that we should have caught and we went to call at the Gestapo offices first and get these bits and then we went. And the first thing was the fact that we had to wait about two hours. He was trying to take me into a refreshment room at the station. Well, they wouldn’t have that. Whoever was in charge said no. They weren’t having that. Anyway, then took me in the same area to a dormitory which was set up for German personnel to spend the night there you know. These were two tiered jobs again. Bathroom, showers and whatnot and there was only one other chap there. One German there. He said, you know, ‘Do you want to use the facilities?’ So I had a wash up, had a shave and then to top it all he was blacking his boots and said, ‘Do you want to do that?’ So I had this bloke put some blacking on my shoes [laughs] However, we, then they got to Berlin. Well, we went on to this the next train to Berlin. We had to stand in the side corridor and it was full of people being brought home from the Russian front because they had these frames holding their arms up and they had their heads bandaged up and all sorts. So I got talking, in inverted commas, to some of these and the same thing applied. No English. No German. But we nattered about it and it was evident the Russian Front was where they’d come from.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Pleased to be leaving no doubt and all that and —
Interviewer: Hang on.
[recording cuts]
DM: Oh, and then so we got in to Berlin and we went on a tramcar to Stackau, S T A C K A U Airfield. I don’t know quite where it was regarding Berlin centre. A couple of people interrogated me. They did have good English and they checked around for any hidden compasses and all that sort of thing and then took me down to a bunker which was like an air raid shelter on camp and when I walked in there was six, no seven other people there And the one I became very friendly with was the navigator. A chap called Don Hall who had been a semi-senior civil servant as it happened and they’d been shot down the night before over Berlin. Came down on, in Berlin which was very dicey and the reason was that there was only as far as I knew there was only one thing happened and that was that whoever shot this thing it killed the pilot. And that was it. They all had to get out and they all came down in the streets of Berlin. However, they all got to this stage.
Interviewer: So —
DM: Sorry.
Interviewer: So the interrogation up to this date had been pretty amateur so far.
DM: No. None at all.
Interviewer: No.
DM: To speak of, no. So anyway, we met up. There were, there was a little thing. They were suspicious of me and thought I was a plant because of my shoes being blacked and all washed and shaved. They couldn’t believe it. Anyway, they did eventually.
Interviewer: What squadron were they from?
DM: I think he was 100 was it? He was at Ludford Magna.
Interviewer: 101. Yeah.
DM: They were —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: This, they didn’t have bombs.
Interviewer: Yeah, special. Yeah. ABC.
DM: Yes, that was —
Interviewer: Airborne cigar.
DM: That’s right. Cigar.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. And they were on their 30th trip.
Interviewer: Good God.
DM: Yeah. And the, well the pilot was dead of course and the rest of them managed to bale out. We went on a coach to catch the Paris Express at Juterbog to Frankfurt on Main. We didn’t go up to Paris obviously. Frankfurt on Main where the place —
Interviewer: Dulag Luft. Yeah.
DM: That’s right. Coolers, solitary confinement and that was what they did. Put everybody in a separate cell sort of thing. Mine was terribly terribly hot so the next day I did mention it and they turned it down so [laughs] whether it was not by design or not I couldn’t know. Excuse me. That was about 6pm when we got in there but I got very hot. Not allowed anything to read. Just think, in inverted commas about the situation. Walked up and down the cell seven hundred times the first day and up to one thousand four hundred times on the second day and so on. Proper interrogation was, you went in to, out of the cell and into a special room set up. On the wall there was a plan of our flight plan.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Precisely. And there was two of them but one of them did the talking and I adopted the same attitude as before. Number, rank and name and eventually he said, ‘Oh well, if you’re not willing to cooperate we’ll send you back to the Gestapo,’ because he knew about that episode. That’s what he threatened. That’s right. Being returned to the Gestapo means no talking. Back to the cell and nothing happened. No more interrogation as a large number of Brits and Americans were coming to the camp following raids with heavy losses.
Interviewer: What date was that approximately?
DM: That was I think the 24th of February.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: And we left, well we had a night there. Did I? Yes. That’s right. The 23rd I’ve got here. All cells were emptied and we were pushed into a big room with everybody being cleared out for the reception of these Americans and Brits you know. We were scarcely room to stand let alone sit down but we had to spend the night there. And I happened to be nearby a squadron leader and I told him or he asked what I’d been doing you know. It had gotten to that. I explained some of this and he said, ‘Oh —’ you know. ‘Damned good show.’ Sort of thing [laughs] He’d been there for some weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And they were taking him out but he said, ‘I’m not finished. I’ve got to come back here.’ So they obviously thought more interrogation would be fruitful with him. There was, that’s right no room to sit down. On the 24th of February we left and went to the Dulag Luft. While I was there I was sort of pointed out, one of about four to go on a little duty. Push a hand cart to another place in town and get some mattresses. Extra mattresses [laughs] Anyway, saw a little bit of Frankfurt.
[recording cut]
DM: And then the 25th or 26th we were on a train about at the Dulag Luft they gave you a thing, it looked like a suitcase with pyjamas in, a towel, soap and shaving kit, things like that. You know. Which set you up a bit. Very good really. And on a train, wagons of course to Stalag Luft 6 but it was, took days and a bit tortuous.
Interviewer: Which was, Stalag Luft 6 was which one? Was that — [unclear]
DM: No. Heydekrug.
Interviewer: Heydekrug. Sorry.
DM: Yes. I think it was 6, wasn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
DM: I think it was 6.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. So that and oh and the journey up we went through Lebus and Raddusch [laughs] funnily enough. So I realised you know that we might so I was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Looking out for it.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you got to Heydekrug.
DM: Yeah. Across Poland that was.
Interviewer: Yeah. Into Estonia.
DM: No. No. It was East Prussia.
Interviewer: East Prussia. Right.
DM: Right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: You know, there was Latvia and Lithuania.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Were a bit higher.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: Very close to Lithuania the camp was.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I believe.
Interviewer: When you got there what was the camp like?
DM: Well, it was well occupied. The thing was that there were three lagers. There was one for British, one for Canadians and one for Americans and because of our arrival, maybe it was a bit unexpected or something they put us in with the Americans for a few days. And that was an eye opener too. I mean they weren’t like us at all [laughs] They got, we got parcels one day when we were in this situation and quite a number you know not just one or two but there was quite a percentage of them. They sat on a, you know a long seat with a table here with the parcel and they ate the lot. You know. It’s supposed to be for the week. Amazing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway, it was only three or four days and they moved us into the British part.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: And as it happened I was sent with two or three others into a small hut rather than a brick building, much bigger and all the other chaps when I got to know them they’d all escaped in the past and they were kept in this one hut you know near the gate for security reasons. And, you know they said, ‘What have you done?’ I said, ‘Nothing really.’ I did tell them of course what it was but anyway I don’t think that ever really fussed them.
Interviewer: Do you remember who the other people in the hut were?
DM: Well, I got to know them quite well. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Can you remember some of their names?
DM: Oh dear. No. Not now. There was one little fellow who was quite a card and I did know him quite well but I can’t remember [pause] Rupert. Rupert [Greenhalgh], yeah. Rupert [Greenhalgh]. Yes. And they all had a history of getting out of camps.
Interviewer: Who was in charge of Heydekrug from the British point of view?
DM: I don’t know. No. I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Richard [Green]
DM: Oh yes. He was. Of course. Yes. Richard [Green]that’s right.
Interviewer: A man of honour. Yes.
DM: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: Well, was the camp well run?
DM: Yes. I think it was. I mean we got a parcel every week at the beginning and there was no hassle really you know so long as you just did what was required. Walked around the perimeter you know several times a day and there was things to do. It had been established quite some time. They had two full orchestras and they had people putting on shows, you know. Acting and so on and it was all free to go when it came around and showers were available [coughs] excuse me, once a week. And the food, you know they did, they didn’t provide much but we had the parcels so —
Interviewer: I presume the Red Cross got you through.
DM: Yes. We were not badly off at all at that stage.
Interviewer: Was there much attempt to escape whilst you were there?
DM: Well, they talked of it but I mean by the time we got there when the invasion was likely to come up and everybody knew that there wasn’t the same interest that there had been previously. I never got involved with any of it. [coughs] excuse me.
Interviewer: So life goes on in the camp.
DM: Yes.
Interviewer: But then the Russians start coming towards —
DM: Yes, precisely.
Interviewer: What happened then?
DM: We heard this gunfire and so on and the Russians because they sort of advanced didn’t they maybe I don’t know forty or fifty miles, stopped and then cleared up everything they’d come through and then did it again. Well, we were fortunate really in that they stopped not far short of us but you could hear all of the fighting and so on the day, one day and then it’s quiet after that.
Interviewer: Yes.
DM: There was another incident happened while we were at that camp and somebody, we were out enjoying the sunshine and somebody said, ‘Ay, look at this.’ And it was one of the big rockets you know that eventually dropped on London. Not the flying bombs thing.
Interviewer: The V-2s.
DM: V-2.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Going up into the stratosphere. So saw one of those but you know what if there was a target I don’t know but it was inside German territory before the Russians came. But —
[recording cut]
DM: Then they started, within a couple of days they’d moved us out. They said you know you were going out of here. Everybody and I was in virtually the last group to leave just by chance and we went into a camp in Poland at —
Interviewer: At dawn.
DM: Dawn. That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: So you marched from Heydekrug.
DM: No. No. No.
Interviewer: On a train.
DM: No, we didn’t have any marching really. We were very lucky in that respect.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And there was some stuff we picked up you know. One or two bits of clothing and things that were helpful but other people just left because they couldn’t carry it all because you could only take what you could carry.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: And then after about three or four weeks I would think at dawn the train again to Fallingbostel. Yeah. Fallingbostel.
Interviewer: When you got to Fallingbostel what state was that camp in?
DM: Well, word was that it had been empty for some time because they’d had Russians there and there had been typhus which they’d well obviously they’d got rid of it because we didn’t suffer with it. But there was a lot of Army people already in the camp and the Air Force contingent was relatively small. But they were well organized and they were, you know the first night or two we slept in a room which had forty bods. But we got one later where we just two tiers.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And this Don Hall and myself we were together and I think it was there where they confiscated the palliases. They were straw filled.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway, we, we were [unclear] board but again it wasn’t a full board all the way so one of us suggested well why don’t we put them together, sleep together on the bottom part which we did and which was a much better solution. But gradually the parcels, they’d have, one a week was the plan of course but it became one between two for the week and then you might get another one each but eventually it was just half a box each every week. And we obviously slipped into a certain amount of malnutrition. It was peculiar in that to walk around the perimeter you had to consciously think about putting one foot in front of the other and we were quite thin but not dangerously so obviously because we could still walk and, but much of that and it would have been like Belsen I suppose.
Interviewer: So where were you at Fallingbostel when the Americans arrived?
DM: No. No. No. We —
[recording cut]
DM: We were moved out. They said we were going to I think it was to, a place near Berlin. Anyway, we were walking east. We did get extra food by being out in the country, you know pulling up onions and various things. Anyway, it was only about three days the Germans in charge of us decided they weren’t going any further east. They would go west. Meet the Brits.
Interviewer: So you were heading east from Fallingbostel.
DM: Headed east first.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
DM: But then as I say —
Interviewer: They changed their mind.
DM: Three days they thought no. No. Because by then the Russians were virtually at Berlin I think.
Interviewer: Right.
DM: And then we had the incident with the parcel. That’s right. We were diverted off the ordinary road to pick up a parcel.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Each. I think. Or one between two. I’m not sure. And we’d just left there, we were in this long column. Must have been half a mile long and on a road with dykes each side and then fields and then suddenly we had the fighter attack by our own people.
Interviewer: Do you know what sort of fighter they were? Was it —
DM: Typhoons.
Interviewer: Typhoons.
DM: I think, yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Yeah. I mean we’d seen them around all the time and they were dipping their wings to us recognising what we were but this particular party they did recognise us but too late according to what we heard later.
Interviewer: So they attacked you and several were killed.
DM: Yeah. They were. Yeah. There was one chap not far from me got hit in the head and he’d been a prisoner since the early 1940. But actually there was more Germans killed although there was only one them to probably what thirty or forty of us. They had more casualties than we did. I think maybe because they didn’t run.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I mean we, firstly we went in a dyke and then somebody came on top of me and I can remember thinking that’s good. Anyway, soon as the first attack we got up and ran in to the fields and again there was some firing and explosions from the road fortunately but I can remember diving into the ground you know to get in to it. To get underneath the surface.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I remember I scraped all my —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Forehead and nose in doing so. But anyway, that was it. Then he’d gone and then we of course it was disarray. The Germans didn’t know what to do any more than we did but they said that there is a farm up the road. We’re going to stay there and that we did. But unfortunately, this Don Hall who was sharing everything we were he was ill and it turned out to be pneumonia. So they put him in a hospital nearby and I sort of carried on with the stuff we’d got until it came to an end.
Interviewer: So where were you eventually released [unclear]?
DM: Oh, well we moved onto another farm. Just one day or two. Stayed the night and when we went on the farms of course all the stock of pigs and chickens anything like disappeared [laughs] within almost minutes. Anyway, we survived it and the —
[recording cut]
DM: After a couple of days the next morning there was no activity and there was no guards to be seen anyway. And anyway, word went around, you know the guards had gone and there was one officer stayed and there was two or three guards but that was it. Anyway, we still didn’t get to know anything and then we were down by the entrance into the yard. I happened to be anyway and there was a jeep coming. A chap with a red cap you know in it and he came you know fairly fast up to that point. I’m supposed to be recording this. He was sort of holding the wheel and up on his as he was putting the brake on came up like this, ‘No bloody souvenirs.’ [laughs] And you could see the jeep disappearing up the road. Maybe he’d had some experience.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway, he said, well, ‘We can’t help you obviously. I can’t do much for you but there’s a place if you walk up the road. There’s a village. There’s an empty school where you can sleep if that’s what you want and nearby there’s a field full of vehicles and you’re welcome to go and see what you can do and make your own way to Luneburg.’ So we did stay in this place that night. The next morning four of us went together and we found a [pause] oh dear —
Interviewer: Kubelwagen, was it?
DM: It doesn’t really, eh?
Interviewer: Kubelwagen. Volkswagon.
DM: No. No. Well, possibly. Yeah. I think maybe it was. Or a French car. Anyway —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: It was four seater.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: We got a tank of petrol out of another vehicle so we had plenty of fuel and we also picked up a box. A wooden box filled with cans of meat, you know. Round cans two deep and they were, well we established that they were beef like. Cooked beef in these tins. You know, ridiculous really but we thought well that would be something we were allowed to eat. However, we went on as far as we could. I was the only driver as it happened. I passed my test in 1939 before the war started. And so off we went and “POW” on the front just above the windscreen we’d written so that any police or anything directing traffic they would know where we wanted to go and then set us on the right road. Anyway, it began to come dark so we thought we’re not going on in the dark and we stopped and close to a farm house as it happened by luck and with that a soldier who hadn’t been, not a POW he was a sergeant and we explained we were POWs, been POWs and we needed somewhere to stay. He said, ‘Oh, well why not here.’ And he goes thumping on the door and tells them in English you know, ‘I’ve got four men here want to sleep here.’ [laughs] Anyway, they didn’t mind. They let us in and we sort of selected one room. Well obviously, spare and we said that was, they didn’t understand but we said, ‘We don’t want to inconvenience you any more than we must. We’ll sleep two on the bed and one each side on straw.’ So they obliged. We went in their pantry and chose, the first thing I spotted was a jar of preserved gooseberries. I said, ‘We’ll have that and we’ll have a chicken.’ You know. So she did us a smashing meal for the evening. Anyway, then we went to bed. The next morning we got up and dressed, went out in the village and —
[recording cut]
DM: Quite close by we came across an Army vehicle with a trailer which was a signals unit and we talked to them and said we want to go to [pause] where did I say? Luneburg.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Oh, he said, ‘Well, we’re going to Luneburg this afternoon if you’d like to go with us.’ So, ‘Oh yeah. Rather.’ So we went back to the farm, put this box of meat in. There was all [unclear] and a bag of sugar. A big bag of sugar. And they said, you know, ‘There you are. Come and come have a look at the vehicle. It’s yours.’ So they were really pleased and anyway we went to with these other fellas and they took us to the big barracks at Luneburg. The first thing they as you walked in they gave you a round tin of fifty cigarettes I think it was wasn’t it? And anyway, obviously we had plenty of food and all that sort of thing. It was just I think three days probably there relaxing and then they said, ‘Right, there are some American lorries coming to take you to an airfield called Diepholz.’ And they did and they took us and we were in bell tents we were. That evening was when Churchill was speaking on the radio saying that it was all over and this, that and the other. So we listened to that, had a meal and a few drinks and that sort of thing. The next morning some other vehicles came and took us to this airfield, Diepholz. We went on board a Dakota and they flew us to Brussels. We had proper accommodation there and also the ladies of the city were putting on a banquet as it were in some official building and we were all invited. And they were really posh ladies you know sort of thing. You could tell by their jewellery and what not. Mostly, fairly mature, you know. They weren’t girls so we weren’t interested in them not that I would have been anyway I’m sure. I was only thinking about getting home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: But we had a magnificent meal and then we had a bit of a stroll around the city and looked at this and that and the group I was with returned to where we’d been stationed then. The next morning more vehicles took us to the Brussels Airport and this time we joined a little crowd and they said, ‘Right. Well, you’re going in this Lancaster.’ I still had my old brevet on so the navigator he came for us, he said, ‘Oh, I see you’re a nav.’ He said, ‘You can come down the front with me.’ So that was nice. Flew over the Channel, see the white cliffs of Dover.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: To [pause] oh dear. In Sussex. Tangmere.
Interviewer: Tangmere was it? Yeah, you landed at Tangmere. Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And to move on a bit the sergeant came and he said, ‘Now you dump all your clothes. Everything.’ And got rid of them and there was a sort of the blue hospital garments and a towel and soap and so on, showers and then he said, ‘Well, you can, it’s up to you but we can, you can go to bed and sleep right through tomorrow if you want or you could get up again about three —’ No, 5 o’clock. Something like that, ‘And we guarantee to have you fully clothed in uniform, fed and all the rest of it. Money, medical and out of here on a train home.’ Oh, we’ll all do that. Get up early which we did.
[recording cut]
DM: So that’s how it worked out.
Interviewer: So you got back to, back home.
DM: Immingham.
Interviewer: Immingham.
DM: It was at the time. Yes. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right. Did you ever think of staying in the RAF?
DM: Well, a bit. Yes. There was one time and as a matter of fact I was hanging about at the airfield at Killingholme to get some petrol coupons because we were entitled. Father’s car was there you know so and I drove it more than he ever did because he hadn’t had it long before the war started. I’d passed my test so I did most of the driving until it was laid up. Excuse me. And I think it was a squadron leader came, looked at my brevet and whatnot. Medals, such as there were and they, he said, ‘Do you fancy a tour in —’ [pause] Now, would you say Persia? It was wasn’t it? Now Iraq or something?
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: That’s right. The Persian Gulf and what not. Training navigators. So I said I don’t know about that. Anyway, I gave it a few minutes thought and I thought no. I’ll not bother with that. Too quick to go away again really from the comforts of home.
Interviewer: So you got demobbed fairly quickly out of the RAF.
DM: Well, not actually by choice. The first thing was that I now what? How did it work out? [pause] There was certain things you could do but eventually they said you’ve got to remuster if you want to stay in. But I couldn’t get out straightaway mark you. I must say that because my release code was forty, and when they made the first announcement they said any prisoner of war release group forty four or higher could go now. No. No, the other way around wouldn’t it?
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: I was forty four. Forty was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Out. Because my father was out in days [laughs] He’d been there from the very beginning. I think your age had something to do with it as well. So what to do? So and then they say you’ve got to remuster if, you know you can’t just keep drawing your warrant officer’s pay [laughs] and doing virtually nothing. Did have a session of spud picking when I was in charge of a couple of [muggins] and shared it out at the end of the day. That was in Shropshire I think somewhere. Anyway, as regards to remustering we got together two or three of us, all warrant officers of course. They said, ‘Oh, look here a driving course.’ So I said, ‘Well, yeah, I can drive but — ’ I said, ‘Anyway, yeah if you want to do that.’ They couldn’t drive you see. So, I said I’ll go on that. So that’s what we did at Melksham. Anyway, I didn’t actually complete the course. We never got on the articulated vehicles because one of the same chaps he came running in sort of thing. He said, ‘There’s a notice on the board POWs up to group —’ whatever — ‘Can go.’ So we all said, ‘Right. Well, we’d better apply.’ That wasn’t the end of it either [laughs] because this was coming up December time.
Interviewer: Of ’45.
DM: Hmmn?
Interviewer: December ’45.
DM: Yeah. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: And, and they said, ‘Oh well, there’s some courses you can go on if you wish.’ And so I thought, ‘Well, I’ve been in insurance you see so I thought if I could do some swatting up and whatnot it might help and it would be better for me going in to Civvy Street in December January, February.’ And I went to Sunninghill Park near Sunningdale and Sunninghill Park, the house we were in was demolished for the Duke of York and his —
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
DM: To build on that site.
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
DM: Anyway, there was a chap and myself he was likewise a POW warrant officer and he had a motorbike. He used to go out on that. It was neither taxed nor insured [laughs] but there was one day he was doing something else and he said, ‘You can take the motorbike if you like.’ So I said, ‘Alright. I’ll try it.’ And I’d never ridden a motorbike. Anyway, I did go for a spin but nothing much more because I didn’t care for it a lot and I resolved there and then I wasn’t having a motorbike I would always have cars when I got out and I did precisely that. I had work within the month.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So looking back on the war and your service in the RAF any reflections, any thoughts about it?
DM: Well, on the whole it was enjoyable I must admit you know. There were moments when it wasn’t but on the whole it was a good experience.
Interviewer: What was your view of the French people who had helped you?
DM: Oh well I —
Interviewer: Did you contact them again or did you —
DM: Well, only two and one didn’t last very long but the Rene [Danch] as I mentioned before probably was we kept in touch but not straightaway. It was later on. Actually, we took the caravan down there and went to his house without warning [laughs] and he was delighted. He had three or four daughters grown up and his wife and this, that and the other. It all sort of went on from there. They came and of course oh well yeah well that was it. They came and stayed with us. We went there, stayed with them although we had the caravan but they still insisted we slept in their house and so then later on their daughter she went to —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dougie Marsh
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v610006, SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v610007, SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v610008
Description
An account of the resource
Interview in three parts.
Part 1.
Doug Marsh was the son of a Royal Navy officer and moved around quite a bit as a child between Kent and Lincolnshire. When his father retired from the Navy his parents bought a fish and chip shop in Grimsby but shortages meant that the business could not succeed and Doug had to find other work. He had secured a place as a trainee with the local authority but the start of the war cancelled the scheme he would have joined. He worked for the Prudential Insurance Company until he volunteered for the RAF aircrew and began training as a navigator in the UK and then in South Africa. Following training in South Africa Doug returned to the UK to continue his training. During part of this training a German plane dropped a bomb on the local railway station and on the hotel where recruits were billeted. He was posted to RAF Bruntingthorpe for his OTU where he joined up with his crew and the trained together after training flights on Manchesters and on to the Lancaster.
Part 2.
Doug Marsh continued his training on H2S at RAF Scampton before being posted to 57 Squadron for operational flying. During that time the flight engineer on the crew had gone up on an operation and failed to return. On the day of their last operation the wireless operator was in hospital and so received the news there that his crew had crashed. On the morning of the last flight the ground crew told the pilot to remember not to land at their usual dispersal because the aircraft was due for an overhaul. In the air the crew heard a bang and the plane was soon on fire. The crew baled out. Doug was knocked unconscious and came to in a field with the parachute in a tree. He hid until he was discovered by French prisoners of war who hid him in the expectation of him finalising his escape plans. He was caught and assumes his capture was due to betrayal by one of the French.
Part 3.
Doug Marsh was was captured and taken to Frankfurt on Oder where he was treated well. One night his German cell mate alerted him to the red glow outside of the window which Doug recognised as Pathfinder flares followed by a single explosion as a bomb fell. Doug just went back to sleep much to the surprise of the youth with him. On his journey to Stalag Luft 6 he passed the towns where he had hidden before his capture. Doug remained a prisoner of war until the POWs were moved away from the Russian advance. On one occasion during the march they came under attack from Allied fighters. Dougie was a small distance from a POW who was killed outright who had been a prisoner from the beginning of the war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:47:14 audio recording
00:47:33 audio recording
00:47:35 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
Pending revision of OH transcription
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Lithuania
South Africa
England--Leicestershire
Lithuania--Šilutė
South Africa--Queenstown
South Africa--Cape Town
Contributor
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Julie Williams
57 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crash
evading
H2S
Lancaster
Manchester
navigator
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Scampton
shot down
Stalag Luft 6
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/209/46470/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v370002.mp3
4ae5d4fa0c612b005db71b0077bfe8d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bell, John Richard
John Richard Bell
John R Bell
John Bell
J R Bell
J Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Wing Commander John Richard Bell DFC (-2024). He was a bomb aimer with 619 and 617 Squadrons in Flying Officer Bob Knights’ crew.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bell, JR-UK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: Well, good morning, John.
JB: Good morning.
Interviewer: Thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview for the Aviation Heritage Project from Lincolnshire here.
JB: My pleasure.
Interviewer: As you know we’re going to be collecting this information and it will go into an Archive and will be of future use for whoever is going to follow us.
JB: Excellent.
Interviewer: I wonder if you could just start by just telling us a little bit about how you came to serve with 617 Squadron.
JB: Yes, I, well I first of all the crew and I started our operational career with 619 Squadron at Woodhall Spa in June of 1943 and we proceeded to operate throughout the rest of 1943 until we moved to Coningsby around about December I think to allow 617 Squadron to come from Coningsby into Woodhall and have the airfield to themselves. And we were approaching the end of our tour, rather our pilot was approaching because he’d done two second dickie trips at the beginning which we hadn’t done and I missed a couple through illness so at some point we, we would have been split up as was the normal situation and sent off to other parts instructing at OTUs. But as a well-knit crew a family organisation as you might say we felt we didn’t want to be split up and we’d like to continue flying which seems a bit silly now when you look back. But we thought we’d volunteer to fly with 617 Squadron and we did and we were welcomed by Wing Commander Cheshire, had an interview and all went well. He said yes, ok. We were an experienced crew by then. So he was looking for experienced crews and we were very fortunate with our survival through to almost the end of our tour and that’s how we came to join 617 Squadron.
Interviewer: You must have been aware of the reputation of 617 Squadron. Did you feel that you really were joining an elite or was it a sense of concern?
JB: We knew we were joining an elite Squadron. We weren’t quite sure exactly what they were doing. In fact, at our interview we were asked why we wanted to join 617 Squadron. We said, well we were fed up with flying at twenty thousand feet and we rather liked this idea of flying low level and he promptly said, ‘Well, we’re not doing low level flying anymore.’ Which as you probably realise that was they attempted to do this after the dams raid and they lost a lot of aircraft.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: So it wasn’t a good idea and when Cheshire took over I think in about November of ’43 he started a different programme of operating which proved very successful. Operating at night over France and with little opposition most of the time at that time during the first few months of 1944. So we knew that the chances of survival were greater or at least we thought they were rather than with the main force. Perhaps with hindsight you’d wonder why you would want to volunteer to continue to fly on operations.
Interviewer: Well, they do say never volunteer but please tell us about your impressions of Wing Commander Cheshire. He’s such an important person in this.
JB: Yes. He was very approachable. Quiet. But he had that quality you knew you were going to follow that man and he would, there was no bombast with him and no sort of dictatorial attitude. He was very quietly unassuming but nevertheless he laid down what he wanted us to do and he was prepared to lead us in this. History shows that he did lead from the front. And he was just a nice man and well respected as a commanding officer with a great deal of experience as a bomber pilot.
Interviewer: Did he give you full regard? You said you had a lot of experience as a crew. Were you encouraged to put your views and experiences into the, into the Squadron melting pot so to speak?
JB: Well, I’m sure the pilot, the pilots really were the people who put the information in actually and they carried the forward the views of the crew but I suppose that when the pilots got together and he was with the pilots discussing tactics and so on took into account what the crews felt. We didn’t directly speak to him about it.
Interviewer: No.
JB: But through the, through the pilot we would. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Would you be able to tell us a little bit about what it was like to be on operations with 617? Could you perhaps describe the run up to and the activities that were involved in preparing for an operation and what actually happened?
JB: Yes. It is pretty much the same as, as all preparations for, for an operational flight and we would be told in the morning that the, there was the likelihood of an operation that evening and we would assemble. Well, we’d go through the process of getting kit ready and so forth and assemble for a briefing in the afternoon and after the briefing we would then get our kit from, you know the parachute and dinghy, Mae West and stuff like that. In the morning of course we would have checked the aircraft out thoroughly so there would be an air test and that was absolutely mandatory to make sure everything worked in the air. And then the bomb load would be checked out. I as the bomb aimer would be responsible for making sure that we had the right bomb load and seeing it put on perhaps, loaded on to the aeroplane. A navigator would also have his own maps and so forth to gather and the gunners would also collect their guns from the armoury. The armoury normally was received, the guns from the turrets and they would check them over and then the gunners would go and collect them and make sure they got the right ones back into the aircraft. So all this went on and checking everything thoroughly and then the, having drawn all the maps and made sure we knew where we were going and the briefing of course would spell out the exact timing of the operation and how many, who were to bomb first. And the particular operations that we were doing with 617 Squadron were, Leonard Cheshire managed to persuade the AOC that he should do the marking because we had, I think they had some experience with poor marking by Pathfinder at the time and so he marked. And that was the first one I think on Albert. I remember that raid where he marked the target with flares from extremely low level with the Lancaster and that was the type of operation that we did throughout the four months. I think up to May. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
JB: When we stood down. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. Did you have any experience of dropping any of the heavy weapons that 617 Squadron was equipped with? The Tallboy or –
JB: Well, yes. The, well, during that four months we were not only dropping one thousand pounders but also the twelve thousand pounds light cased [pause] what were they called? It was a blast weapon. So we were used to carrying a twelve thousand pounder but of course the problem with that was yes it was a blast weapon against buildings, normal type buildings and but also had some inaccuracy in it because of its shape and small fins that were necessary to get to enable it to be carried in the bomb bay. Then from, after June the 6th three days later we were equipped with a Tallboy and that’s when we got into the Tallboy era and it was a much finer weapon.
Interviewer: Yes. If I may I’d like to ask you a technical question about that which comes from a question that was put to me recently at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. What was it like? How did you actually ensure that the Tallboy was released very quickly? Was it an electronic or a mechanical release mechanism?
JB: It was an electronic –
Interviewer: Right.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So there was no time delay in that because you needed extreme accuracy didn’t you?
JB: Yes. You did and I cannot remember any detail of, of problems with the release. Since then many years later I discovered that there were. Why? Why for example there were wide misses with the Tallboy landing somewhere else and there was a problem with the release mechanism. This was a strap.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: And the straps were taken off the aeroplane on return and they were checked over to make sure they were serviceable and then put back. But there was a problem I understand with them for maybe releasing two or three seconds late which of course affected —
Interviewer: I can see you were —
JB: Yes, it was. Trial and error.
Interviewer: Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s very helpful.
JB: Yes. I didn’t, I didn’t experience any problems. No. No. Whilst I didn’t hit exactly where I’d aimed the, it was close enough so they were all in the target area.
Interviewer: You were a bomb aimer.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And from the point of view of the Archive for people visiting this in years to come a question must be asked and that is really to ask your, your feelings about the nature of the job you were doing because you were looking down at the target.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And you were releasing heavy weapons against that target.
JB: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: With respect may I ask how you felt about that please.
JB: When I was operating with, with main force with 619 Squadron there were occasions when I realised, well obviously one realised that we were aiming at a part of the city where the industry was or the docks area or whatever it was. And hopefully the spot, the spot flares that were dropped by the Pathfinder Force hopefully were in the right area and so you were aiming at that. Nevertheless, you saw a city in flames throughout not just in that one area that you’re aiming at so the thought occasionally was you know that there is some sort of sympathy perhaps for the people who were on the receiving end. Having been through some of the London Blitz I could well understand that. But it didn’t put me off doing the job that I was trained to do. Then following on when we got to 617 Squadron of course not only were we dropping on a specific target, whatever it was, an engine manufacturing plant or but it was a single target which we were aiming at. Therefore, we hoped there were no civilians in the area. In fact, we made quite a lot of, went to a lot of trouble to make sure that the French workers in there got out before we dropped our bombs. So there was a great deal more of more satisfaction because you could see where your bombs were aiming at and where they exploded and you knew that you were taking out a specific target. So the operations were quite different and more satisfactory from, from the expert view of the –
Interviewer: Some military view.
JB: Military view. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s a very full answer. Could I ask you also about how you disciplined yourself? You were lying in the nose, you were, you were responsible for, really for directing the aircraft in those last few seconds of flight towards the target.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Most important that you hit the target and yet around you there would have been anti-aircraft fire, possibly the risk of fighter attack. Can you tell us what it was like to to do that part of the operation.
JB: Yes, the, pretty well all the flight to the target and perhaps we’re talking about operating with 619 Squadron in Main Force where you’ve got several hundred aeroplanes. You’re keeping a look out for other aeroplanes to make sure that you don’t collide with them and that was one of the problems of collision and other, and night fighters. But then approaching the target then the adrenaline in started to rise because you could see ahead a flaming city way up, way ahead and the sky would be filled with thousands of shell bursts. Now, this is impinged on my memory I can see this now and thinking how are we going to get through all those shell bursts? But when you, when you get to the point where now you take over and the bomb doors are open and you are guiding with the pilot to keep him on track towards it you are concentrating on the job. You don’t think about anything else and everything else is taken out of your mind. You’re not worrying about the flack bursts. If one hits you well that’s tough. You can’t avoid them so you got on and do the job. Once you’ve dropped the bombs and taken the photograph then you can get out of the area as quickly as possibly and usually there’s a shout from the crew when I said, ‘Bombs gone.’ ‘Right. Let’s get out of here.’ And so it was [pause] if I, I was not, I was never afraid except in coming up to it wondering how we were going to get through. So there was no fear involved. A lot of apprehension. I’m sure we shall be alright and that was really our attitude throughout.
Interviewer: That is a remarkable story. I mean we who have obviously not done it but read a little bit about it —
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Can understand something of what you’re saying there. It’s a remarkable story, John.
JB: Yes, it’s a bit, it’s akin to the Army coming out of the trenches in the First World War and going en masse across open ground and bullets were flying around. Some of them got hit. Some of them were missed and I think in that respect we were going through all this hail of flak. Somebody got hit, somebody didn’t and we were very fortunate and there was no way you could miss it.
Interviewer: No. And of course, you all lived this strange existence whereby between operations you’d be living a normal life in so far as it could be normal. How did you cope with those ups and downs of feelings and tensions and things?
JB: Well, yes. We’d use our relaxation in the usual way by going to the pub in the evening or into Boston. There was a weekly trip into Boston on the buses and so there would be big relaxation there. But it was just a matter of going to a different pub you know and the crew normally went. Crews went together. They lived together and they drank together and they flew together and so you went with your, with your, the crew were your mates, your friends and it was that sort of thing. Yes. You just, you were thankful when you got to the, to the reported to the flights in the morning to see what was going on for the rest of the day. If there was no operation planned well that was a great relief. You could get on with something else. Go and clean the aeroplane or check it over or take somebody for a flight somewhere. There was always somebody going on leave and it was a fairly easy business flying people around to, you know on a jolly. Well, not a jolly but you know taking them to where they wanted to go for leave or something like that. Or visit another, another airfield. So yeah, we relaxed as much as possible and then got hyped up when it was due for operational flight.
Interviewer: Yeah. Could you, I mean I think I could talk to you all day here, sir. I really could but I appreciate the time is passing. Your time in particular. But I must ask you could you tell us something about some of the other characters that you remember from 617?
JB: 617. Yes. There’s a thing about remembering the crews on the Squadron. I always found it difficult to remember their names mainly because the only names that appeared on the operations board were the pilots. So we knew all the names of the pilots but I didn’t know the names of most of the crews. I might know the names of two or three bomb aimers because the bomb aimers used to go to a briefing together and each member of the crew had his own briefing section. So gunners would know other gunners and I would know two or three other bomb aimers but generally you didn’t know too much about the other crews. You didn’t mix with them obviously for, you know, recreational purposes. But I remember several of the pilots. I can’t remember any particular episodes but they obviously occurred when I was commissioned. I then moved in to the Petwood Hotel and what was the Petwood Hotel then and there were several incidents of people letting off revolvers late at night and behaving in an unseemly manner but being allowed to get away with it with an admonition from the CO. ‘Don’t do it again.’ There wasn’t much he could do about it if you, if you, you know went over the line. But I kept myself to myself because I was, I was escorting a WAAF who later became my wife and so I was otherwise engaged.
Interviewer: As it were. Yeah. Again, I feel I must ask this question. I don’t wish to intrude too much in to your privacy but you know if if you have a strong personal relationship like that and you’re going off on operations was it something that you just accepted?
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Or did you talk it through with your fiancé as she would have been?
JB: Yes, we did talk it through. She was, she was actually employed in the map section so I had to visit the map section every day and of course I visited more often than most [laughs] naturally and so I went to the Intelligence Section for details of the targets and so forth and she knew as all the ladies did that were engaged to be married to aircrew that they were in a great deal of danger. When I got to the point of approaching my fiftieth operation because you could, you could retire after thirty and we didn’t. We continued flying. When you got to fifty you had another, another stage point where you could say ok. She said, ‘I think we ought to think about the future because –’ and I knew the odds were becoming shorter. They certainly were. And this was proved to me after I left the Squadron because I went back to visit the Squadron in November and I had a chat with my pilot and he said, ‘Oh you retired just in time.’ Apparently, they were shot up on the next operation coming back from Brest and flak actually went through the bomb aimers compartment. Missed the bomb aimer because he was standing up in the turret. Now, I didn’t normally stand up in the turret. I was usually lying down. So was it fate? I don’t know. But I retired at the right time.
Interviewer: I think at that point with regret I must ask that we terminate this. It’s been a total pleasure and total privilege to conduct this interview. For the record I should say that I have been conducting this interview with John Bell, bomb aimer of 617 Squadron and the interview was conducted at Thorpe Camp on the 12th of May 2012.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Bell
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v37
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:19:37 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Julian Maslin
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
John Bell completed a tour as a bomb aimer with 619 Squadron. The crew decided they would like to continue flying and so volunteered to join 617 Squadron. They were interviewed by Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and accepted on to the squadron. When John was approaching his fiftieth operation his fiancé asked him to consider retiring from operation flying. He knew his luck was running low and so he did indeed retire. When he visited the squadron later his pilot told him he had retired just at the right time. The next flight after John stopped flying with his crew a piece of flak entered the bomb aimer’s compartment who survived because he was standing in the turret.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
coping mechanism
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46462/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v290002.mp3
5d0e7c3c9b4c625ba2a549896e9d0746
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer 1: This is an interview given on the 14th of May 2011 with Mr Basil Fish at Thorpe Visitor Centre regarding his experiences in World War Two.
BF: Still alive is it?
Interviewer 1: Yes. Yes. It’s fine. So when did you join the RAF, Basil?
BF: Well, I was at University in Manchester and they formed an Air Squadron. This was 1941 and I preferred flying or the thought of flying to studying civil engineering so the answer to your question really is I volunteered in November 1941.
Interviewer 1: And where did you do your training?
BF: Well, we then, the initial training really was from Ringway in Manchester but this was the University Air Squadron and we then at the end of that term, the summer term I actually joined the Air Force proper with the princely rank of Leading Aircraftsman and we were, we went down to what was called arcy darcy [laughs] Aircrew Recruiting Centre down in London and from then onwards we were trained for whatever membership of the crew yweou were best suited for.
Interviewer 1: And you came to be navigator.
BF: In my particular case because I knew that two and two made four instead of five they made me a blinking navigator [laughs]
Interviewer 1: Did you have hopes of being a pilot or were you quite happy as a navigator?
BF: I, I resented if you like not being a pilot because since then of course I’ve gained my private pilot’s license and then had several hours in but at the time I was quite upset actually. But as I say I knew that two and two made four and not five. I should have said two and two make five and then I would have been a pilot you see [laughs]
Interviewer 1: And you did your, you crewed up at an OTU. Where would that have been?
BF: We did the ITW. That’s the Initial Training Wing.
Interviewer 1: Yes.
BF: At university. I was at Manchester University. So I joined with the princely rank of leading aircraftsman and then we were given what I call the real training, the flying training and we were sent out to South Africa. And believe it or not it took seven weeks to get there by boat. And then we qualified with our wing and we qualified as navigator. We thought we knew it all until we came back to England and then of course we had to, if you like re-educate ourselves to flying. Serious flying over here in Britain. Then it was what? 1942.
Interviewer 1: And you then went to —
BF: We then, we did [pause] let me just get my facts right. We did the initial training and then we went to what they called OTU, Operational Training Unit where the flying was becoming more serious and we were flying Wellingtons and that was at Swinderby and Syerston. And then after that we for reasons I just don’t know we went straight to 617 Squadron. Now, in those days people on 617 were very experienced airmen. They’d been on operational flying and that sort of thing. And as a crew when we went along never having seen a shot fired in anger I wasn’t quite sure how we were received. But after a few weeks you know it was we were part of the, part of the squadron and I stayed with them ever since. Well, for the rest of the war I should say. And then it was a toss of either going back to university and getting my degree or staying on in the Air Force. After a lot of if you like heart-searching I decided to go back to university and that then was in 1945 1946.
Interviewer 1: Where were you first stationed with 617?
BF: Well, do you mean operationally?
Interviewer 1: Yes.
BF: Here. We were the first if you like non-experienced crew or one of the first non-experienced crew to come to Woodhall Spa and that’s where I spent the rest of my Air Force career. At Woodhall Spa.
Interviewer 1: A happy time in spite of what you were doing?
BF: Yes, I adopted the attitude I really wasn’t going to come out, you know with ten fingers and ten toes. It just didn’t happen. But we were a very very close knit squadron and I stayed there and I did I think twenty four operations in in total until the end of the war. Then I applied for early release to go back to university and in those days they were jolly glad to get rid of air crew quite honestly.
Interviewer 1: Who was your commanding officer here?
BF: We had, first of all it was a chap called Tait. Willie Tait and then, Willie Tait who was a wing commander. It was then taken over by Group Captain Fauquier. Very unusual for a group captain to be in charge but he was a very, what shall I say? He seemed to be a fierce man but he had a heart of gold I found actually. So the answer to your question is William Tait, then Group Captain Fauquier.
Interviewer 1: Would you like to tell us about any of your operations or —
BF: Well, there’s one operation which I shall never ever forget and that was about our eighth and flying conditions were very very poor. Low cloud. Poor visibility and we were actually, take off was postponed on more than one occasion and we eventually took off. I forget what the target was quite honestly. And on the way back we pranged and we lost two of the crew. We were all injured one way or another but I managed to be able to walk which was an absolute blessing because I could then sort of walk and eventually we got the, the help that we needed. And I carried on flying after I’d been hospitalized for a while and unfortunately I was the only member of the crew who could actually fly. Who was fit enough to fly I should say.
Interviewer 1: So you then had to fit in with another crew.
BF: Correct. I became what was known as a spare bod. In other words, if they wanted a navigator I was the spare. Like having a spare tyre on a car I suppose. And I flew with some very interesting people actually [laughs]
Interviewer 1: Can you tell us about any of them? Or your experiences?
BF: Well, the one experience that sticks in my mind I’d better not mention names but the pilot was, he was a squadron leader chap and a very nice fellow and I knew it was a publicity stunt but we were actually going over, we were flying over Hitler’s hideout at the end of the war and the pilot did a demi run. It wasn’t satisfactory. Very hard to see the target where Hitler was and then we did another dummy run and still we couldn’t find the target and he said, ‘Well, what do you think, Guys?’ I said, ‘What do I think? I think we ought to get the hell out of here.’ [laughs] And do you know what he said? ‘You’re dead right.’ [laughs] And that was it. That was my very last. I think that was my last operational trip.
Interviewer 1: How did you feel when you came to the end of that period in your life and then a completely different —
BF: Very very relieved.
Interviewer 1: Yes. Did you miss the comradeship of the posting?
BF: Yes, I did actually. Being, being a member of a crew, particularly the first crew you’re one of the family. Rank doesn’t matter. It doesn't matter who you are or what you’re doing you’re part of a team. A team of seven. That I do, well I did miss because your first crew is, what was that saying? Your fondest crew.
Did you, how did you feel about when you were with the other crews? Did you —
BF: Well, I knew my stuff let’s put it that way and the people I flew with were very experienced, particularly the pilots were very experienced. It was, it was a job. A job of work really. That’s what —
Interviewer 1: Did, did you know at the time the prestige of being with 617?
BF: No is the answer. I was perhaps too junior. I mean Gibson was, you know the originator and then we had Cheshire and people like that who were extreme and Willie Tait was a wonderful commanding officer. I was very happy there. Let’s put it that way. Or not unhappy might be a better way of putting it.
Is there anything else you’d like to add? [pause]
Interviewer 2: Well, if I may I’d like to ask you about one or two other 617 people that you may have served with. Did you know Micky Martin at all? Was he at the squadron?
BF: No.
Interviewer 2: He’d gone by the time you had arrived.
BF: Yes, he’d —
Interviewer 2: And Shannon too had gone by that time?
BF: That is correct.
Interviewer 2: Yes. I see. That’s alright. We know that very often navigators remained in their, at their table during the bombing run. Very few of them actually looked away. Did you actually have a look at what was going on around you or did your duties keep you calculating all the time?
BF: Once my calculations had been done and I’d given the information to the, to the bomb aimer because he then was the, if you like, in charge. The bomb aimer.
Interviewer 2: Yeah.
BF: I would often actually leave my table, my navigation table just to see what was going on. And I can’t remember whether I did it every time. I doubt I did it every time because when you see what’s going on there you are just jolly glad to get back and not see it.
Interviewer 2: Yes. And were any of your operations in daylight?
BF: That’s a very difficult question to answer but I would say without fear of contradiction that all the operations I did probably eighty percent were during daylight.
Interviewer 2: Could you tell us what it was like to see a group of Lancasters flying close together? It must have been quite an experience and quite frightening in some respects.
BF: Comforting.
Interviewer 2: Was it? Yes. How close were they?
BF: Well, not close enough to collide. I mean that was the pilot’s job [laughs] and it was, it was pretty good in formation. Actually formation flying. Don’t forget I mean on that squadron the pilots in particular were very experienced indeed.
Interviewer 2: Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. I mean we do read of collisions and and we know that Bomber Command normally flew at night. It must have taken a little bit of practice to fly in formation in daylight.
BF: Yes. But at least you could see what was happening.
Interviewer 2: Yes.
BF: As it were and I can’t remember any if you like encounters which, which were worrying.
Interviewer 2: No.
Interviewer 1: Were you on the Tirpitz missions?
BF: Yeah.
Interviewer 1: On all three or —
BF: No. The first one I don’t, the first one on the Tirpitz the squadron flew over to Russia and just being brief it was a disaster because the weather was bad and all that sort of thing. Then we came back and the very thought of doing that trip from Britain never really entered anyone’s head and somebody got the bright idea. So we flew up from Lincolnshire to Scotland and we actually could just about manage to go to Tromso and back from Scotland. So it was, and that we started out at night and of course we flew during the day and then we came back and it was it was the longest trip I can ever remember. And as a navigator you’re flying over water and we were at low level so you had very very few aids. It was hard work.
Interviewer 2: I’m sure.
Interviewer 1: When 617 were practicing for the dams raid a lot of them were frightened that it was for the Tirpitz. And yet when the Tirpitz raid came about they seemed to have relaxed themselves about it and just went for it. Did you feel like that or did you —
BF: Well, it’s when you’re in the Air Force and you’re asked to do a job you do it you know.
Interviewer 1: Right.
BF: Because you have no choice. It’s as simple as that. We didn’t actually know what the target was although we had a pretty good idea. We didn’t know what the target was. We didn’t officially know what the target was until we actually had briefing and we were briefed, a final briefing was at night but the pilots and the navigators always had a pre-breifing and when we learned what it was I wasn’t particularly surprised. And then the main briefing was late that night I think. Whatever the day it was and, I’m sorry what was your question?
Interviewer 1: Did you —
Interviewer 2: Were you nervous preparing for the Tirpitz raid as the originators had been for the dams raid when they thought it was going to be the Tirpitz?
BF: I [pause] you’re not worried. I mean quite, it sounds a bit dramatic but I never really expected to survive the war. It’s as simple as that you know. It was always going to be the other man who got killed and not you, you see. It sort of kept you going. Apprehensive would be the right, not frightened, apprehensive. You had a job to do, you’d been trained to do it and it was a question of getting out there and doing it.
Interviewer 1: When did you know that it had been successful and she had been sunk as it were?
BF: When we got back we had a forced landing. We’d been hit with flak but eventually when we got back to, we did a landing at, a forced landing at one of the Scottish aerodromes and we stayed overnight and we came down the following day and I knew then how successful it was because the Undersecretary of State for Air, I’ve forgotten his name now had come out to the squadron.
Interviewer 1: Sinclair.
BF: Archibald Sinclair. And we were given forty eight hours leave. Well, that’s all the mattered. Forty eight hours leave [laughs]. And that’s when we knew. Well, we knew actually. We knew that when we left the Tirpitz we knew it was a goner because we actually saw it.
Interviewer 1: Ah. Well, I think we ought to finish on that very successful note and thank you very much Mr Basil Fish.
BF: It has been my pleasure. I have been a little apprehensive about what we were going to do.
Interviewer 1: More worried about this then the Tirpitz. I know.
BF: Well, there you are.
Interviewer 2: We could listen to you call day. I think really we could. It’s just the pressure that you’re needed elsewhere and you’ve got other commitments but I found that absolutely fascinating and moving.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Basil Fish
1027-Fish, Basil
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v29
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:16:28 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Claire Bennett
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Basil Fish volunteered for the RAF in 1941 from Manchester University where he was a student and a member of the University Air Squadron. He was posted to 617 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa. On one flight his aircraft crashed on return and although injured Basil was the only member of the crew who was able to carry on his flying career and became a spare bod in the squadron. He took part in the attack that sunk the Tirpitz.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1944-11-12
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Norway--Tromsø
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
navigator
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46461/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v280003.mp3
08541f3b83154c41ee84b01a17e24c30
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: This is an interview with Ernie who was in 97 Squadron, at Tattershall Thorpe Camp, visitor camp on the 17th of April 2011. Off you go Ernie.
EG: Right. I first approached the RAF at Kidbrooke in London to join in the RAF and they said that they didn’t really need anybody at the moment but if I would like to give them some details and that about my address and all the rest of it they would be in touch with me. And this was in 1940. I was working in the City of London in a textile firm and from there I then received a letter one day to report to Kidbrooke which they took all my details and told me that they would call me in due course and let me know where to go and all the rest of it and what to do. I then, this was on the two days before Christmas in 1940. I then received a letter to say to report to Cardington which was as you know one of the big RAF stations where they had the airships there and I can remember that as if it was now because I actually went in. When I went to Cardington I actually went in the airship to have a look around and I was amazed. I really was. But two, two days before Christmas I received this letter and my dear mother she says to me, ‘Look,’ she says, ‘Why don’t you ring the RAF up and tell them that you don’t want to go before Christmas but you will go after Christmas.’ And I then explained to her all about what, what goes on and all the rest of it and I should be there on the due date. So, she said, ‘Well, you can’t do anything about it.’ So I arrived at Cardington two days before Christmas and there I received a Christmas lunch which was entirely new to me because being a civilian having a lunch in London you know with turkey and all the rest of it. We had pork and there was one or two moans and groans but, at the time. But then I was then told about a week afterwards after they had given me all the tests and all the rest of it to go home and wait to hear from them. Well, this went on quite a time and I was wondering what was going on and so I phoned up Cardington and said, ‘You know my name and all the rest of it.’ And by this way I had a number then which was 1239, 1235939 and I put my number down and all the rest of it and they said, ‘Well, don’t worry, we will be in touch with you in due course.’ Lo and behold I was then called up and went to Cardington again and was told that I would be sent to Credenhill in a few days which was right up somewhere near Wales, you know. I can’t remember where it was and that and I went there and I was told that I was going to be an armourer. So, I said, ‘What the devil’s that?’ You know, business. I didn’t know what an armourer was and he said, ‘Well, you actually play about with guns.’ So I said, ‘Oh well, you know. That’s it.’ And so when I got to Cardington I then went on the armourers course which I passed out quite well you know. And from Cardington I was then shifted over to a place called Finningley near Doncaster. During the war this is, you know and I really enjoyed it there because in no time I’d risen from being AC2 which I passed out, I then got my LAC pretty quickly because the arming officer then said that I was quite good with my knowledge of guns and the working of them and all the rest of it. And I then, they shifted me over to a new station that was opened called Balderton which was not very far from Finningley. I think it was about ten miles or nine miles something like that and then from there I went to another new station called Bircotes which is near Doncaster which was fairly new opening and that and I was about the first or second one there because when I got there there was nobody on the station. There was no food being cooked or anything else. And we were then told to go down to Bawtry Hall which was then Group 1 and I used to have my food there for a time. And then everybody started coming there and they had the canteen there and the NAAFI and all the rest of it and we started having our food there and I stayed there. I was then called back to Finningley again and from Finningley I then went to Blackpool on a fitter armourer’s course that they thought that, you know he knows a bit about things now. And I went to there and I was there which I had a very enjoyable time. I won my first dance championship there with a young lady and I came back and I was then posted here.
Interviewer: To Woodhall Spa.
EG: To Woodhall Spa and had a wonderful time.
Interviewer: What would your duties have been?
EG: My duties then I was a corporal then and I used to because the actual squadron didn’t come there until a little while afterwards. This was, it was either in February or March. I’m not quite certain.
Interviewer: Of forty —
EG: 1942.
Interviewer: Right.
EG: You know.
Interviewer: Yes.
EG: And then they started coming here, and which was 97 Squadron. By this time I’d been over to Coningsby and introduced to the people of 97 and that, you know that was there and they all came over here, you know. And within a week, it was around about a week oh sorry we started ops and within a very short time we were the first daylight squadron to fly Lancasters over Germany with 44 Squadron. 44 Squadron put up six aircraft, we put up six aircraft. All our aircraft came back safely but they lost —
Interviewer: Was this, was this the Augsburg raid?
EG: This was the Augsburg raid, yeah. And we, we were quite famous, you know. Let me think some more. Then we went on and I then was sent back to Blackpool on Bofors guns. I had to learn about Bofors guns and the rest of it. The next thing I knew I’d heard that the squadron had gone to down the road. Not very far. In Cambridgeshire. Bourn. They’d gone to Bourn but I didn’t go to Bourn. I went to Wickenby in Lincoln, you know. But what annoyed me most of all I would have gone to the squadron but I was put in the station headquarters. I knew quite a bit about things and they wanted me if anything had happened and that you know I could be available and all the rest of it. And the rest of the war literally I wasted time. You know, it was a waste of good time. But somehow all of a sudden something happened and I got this trembling business come on me and I then went to Rauceby you know.
Interviewer: The hospital there.
EG: The hospital.
Interviewer: Yes.
EG: And saw a chappie there and that and literally I said to them, ‘I’m alright,’ you know. But he may have seen something that I didn’t see and so after about a few months or so they demobbed me and I was amazed.
Interviewer: Ah.
EG: But he must have seen something because after that I went back to London you know, my old job and I then started trembling. I had a period for many months you know and I went to Guy’s Hospital where the, where they used to give me tests and all the rest of it and so that’s the end of the story.
Interviewer: Did you meet Guy Gibson somewhere along the line?
EG: I met Guy Gibson and well really I don’t want to talk about him.
Interviewer: No?
EG: No.
Interviewer: Oh.
EG: It’s something that I want to forget because to me [pause] awful man. Awful man. But, but I don’t want to say anything else there if you don’t mind.
Interviewer: No, that’s quite alright Ernie.
EG: Because you know I, Guy Gibson and myself and I had a rough old bust up and he treated his pilots like dirt you know.
Interviewer: Yes, I know. Yes. So you came out of the RAF.
EG: Yes.
Interviewer: And was that the end then of your, of your war career as it were?
EG: It was the end of my war career. I went back to my old job in the City of London but I was off, on and off at work for a period of maybe two or three years. I even, I was amazed because they sent me in and said they would like to see me and there was about four people and about a month after that I received a pension.
Interviewer: Oh.
EG: I was amazed, you know. But then about three maybe four years afterwards they asked me to go there and they said, ‘We’re going to knock your pension down fifty percent.’ You know. So I thought to myself well that’s fair enough because I was feeling much better but I was still getting these shakes now and again. So the reason was I don’t know or mentally something had happened or something about me you know.
Interviewer: Were you attached to sort of one particular Lancaster that you would take care of guns for or was it –
EG: Yeah.
Interviewer: But you’d look after guns on a lot of the Lancasters.
EG: Well, no. When, when I first came here I went around with a chappie and he showed me, although I knew quite a bit about it he showed me the system. He called it the system. He was looking after three Lancasters. The guns, you know. The Brownings, .303s they were and I learned it all then. And then after a time I took over three Lancasters you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
EG: And then you had somebody else and you teach them what it’s all about you know. But lots of people say they hated the old RAF and they hated the Army and that but I loved it. And I would think, I’m certain that I would have stayed in.
Interviewer: Did you get attached to the crews that you came —
EG: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Very. Yeah. And so you were here for how long?
EG: Sorry.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ernest Groeger
1025,1026-Groeger, Ernest
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v28
Creator
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Claire Bennet
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Date
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2011-04-17
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:14:41 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Ernie Groeger volunteered for the RAF in 1940 while working at a textile firm. He undertook training to be an armourer and was posted to 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa. Over time he developed ill health and he was discharged from the RAF on health grounds.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
97 Squadron
ground personnel
RAF Cardington
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/168/46459/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v260002.mp3
a8c4c3913704fcbd59b33c5fbdbe204a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rutherford, Les
R L Rutherford
Robert Leslie Rutherford
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. The collection contains four oral history interviews with bomb aimer Robert Leslie "Les" Rutherford (1918 - 2019, 146263 Royal Air Force), his prisoner of war diary, material about entertainment in the Stalag Luft 3 Belaria compound and a photograph. Les Rutherford served as a despatch rider in the army, he was evacuated from Dunkirk and volunteered to transfer to the RAF. He became a bomb aimer with 50 Squadron and completed 24 operations. He was shot down over Germany on 20th December 1943 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Les Rutherford and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-09
2015-10-05
2015-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rutherford, RL
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr Les Rutherford on the 24th of January 2011 at his home in Lincoln regarding his experiences in the Second World War. Over to you, Les.
LR: At the beginning of the war I was called up into the Army in October just one week before my twenty first birthday which ruined my mother’s plans of course for a birthday party. I was called up and enrolled in Perth in to the 51st Highland Division, did my training there which we spent a week in Perth then moved to Aldershot and the Corunna Barracks at Aldershot. Then did more training there. We were kitted out in uniforms and all the necessary things and then in January, the beginning of January we moved to France and I was a despatch rider then. We moved to various places in France first and I was attached to a field ambulance. We moved across to first of all we were around about Lille in the Belgian frontier and then we moved to Metz or near Metz on the German frontier. In actual fact over there they used to have these artillery duels across the two different armies and we were in actual fact in the Maginot Line. The famous Maginot Line. We used to go in this line for a couple, a couple of cigarettes the French would let us fire a gun [laughs] you know. But and then when the Germans advanced and began their offensive the, well there was one incident that it was early morning and we were suddenly, somebody said, ‘Look at all these aircraft.’ And we were looking up and there was crowds, scores of these aircraft flying over. Flying over. German aircraft, and I was looking up and these and somebody said, ‘Run for shelter. We’ve got to go up to the shelters.’ So, I was looking up and running to the shelter and I tripped and fell and hit my chin on a doorstep. Split my chin right across. And they came running up with an ambulance and thought I’d been hit. And I said, ‘No. I’m alright. I’m alright.’ Anyway, that was the beginning of the offensive when they went and bombed Holland of course from there in Belgium. And so then they moved us across from Metz to try and stem the German advance. We moved across country and at first we thought we were going to Paris. We were heading straight for Paris. Then about ten miles before we got to Paris we turned off north and went off and were stationed around about Lille and then the trouble really began then. That’s when they, as far as we were concerned that’s when the war started or when the fighting started and with being field ambulances we were busy. And one of my duties was to, when our own field ambulances were all used up we used to travel at night and there was a standby unit which had ambulances for anybody that wanted them but one of my jobs was to go to this unit and guide them back to the, to where our field ambulance was. And another thing you used to have to do was to go up to the forward units and get a list of the injured and whatnot. A lot, a lot of work went on at the time. But of course, we were gradually pushed back and pushed back until eventually we got to St Valery. And by this time Dunkirk had taken place. We didn’t know anything about it of course but it was June 12th in actual fact when we got to St Valery and we were trapped there. There were ships coming and going out, way out to sea on the horizon but nothing could get into St Valery. St Valery was surrounded by cliffs and the Germans surrounded up on these cliffs and they were lobbing mortars and all sorts of things in to us. In actual fact, under the command of Rommel who was commanding the troops there. And I got, I got together about a half a dozen men and said, ‘Look. There’s a door there. There’s a shed side there been blown off. If we take that, go out and perhaps get to these ships.’ So they said, ‘Right. We’ll do that. If there’s no ships get into here we’ll do that.’ So it got to about 11 o’clock at night. The town was blazing by this time and when it, when it came to these men they wouldn’t go. So another chap and I took a door which had been blown off. We belted across the sands with this door between us and launched it and we got to these rocks, put the door in the water and when we got in the water came up to our necks nearly and then it turned out this chap had, he couldn’t swim. So I thought well this is remarkable you know [laughs] you’re going to go and you can’t swim. I could swim. I’d done a lot of competition swimming and I could swim so I parked him on the door and I got on the back and acted more or less as a rudder and a propeller and he had a piece of wood that he used as an oar and off we went. And we put out to sea and oh we got well out. Way out to sea and then it got to be early morning, well, you know, I don’t know what time it was. It would be six, seven o’clock in the morning and we could see these trawlers, these ships coming out from, it turned out they were coming from Veules les Roses and they were going straight out to sea from there and then turning and we were nearly in their path. And in actual fact we could see there was still two trawlers, French trawlers to come and we sort of waved at these trawlers and the first one went past and they threw us a lifebelt. I thought well that’s going to do us a lot of good [laughs] you know. And then the next one came by and they threw us a rope and this chap had been sat on this door all night and he couldn’t move his legs properly. I had to tie the rope around him and they hauled him up. And then I tied the rope around myself and they hauled me up. And we’d had nothing to eat for about three days. In actual fact they’d just got a meal going for us when we got to St Valery and these 109s came over and strafed us and we had to get out of it. So we didn’t, we never did get the meal. And they hauled me up onto this, on to the deck and they gave me a glass of hot rum and I went out like a light. Just out. And the next thing I knew was I was, they were waking me up. I was in a bunk on this ship and they were waking me up and said, ‘We’re transferring you to an English ship.’ So they put a blanket around me. They’d taken all my clothes off and had put a blanket around me and took me down into this lifeboat and transferred me to the English ship. So I got on there and I was pretty well fagged out. But then when I sort of got myself settled down a bit on this ship I found one of the ship’s officers and said, ‘You know I was transferred from that trawler.’ I said, ‘What happened to my uniform and clothes?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Nothing like that came over.’ So I said, ‘Well,’ I said, I’ve only got a blanket here. I haven’t got anything else.’ So he said, ‘Well, I don’t know. I can give you a pair of socks.’ [laughs] So I put these socks on and I landed at Southampton with a pair of socks and a blanket. And they had got it all arranged by this time on the docks at Southampton and we were taken into a big shed and the uniforms were all laid out and you just picked one to fit you know and they’d got everything laid out there. It was wonderfully organised. Then we moved from there to Devizes. We spent about a week there and then moved up to Scotland to a place between Hamilton and Glasgow. We stayed there for two or three days and then we were sent home on leave. Then when we came back we went up to Grantown on Spey and spent the rest of the time up there. While I was up there we formed, I found a chap who played the piano and I played guitar and we found we were in the petrol company then of, when I went up to Scotland I was with a petrol company and there was a supply column and what was another column. Anyway, there were six of us altogether got together. There was me on the guitar and my friend on the unit he was on piano and there was the saxophone, trumpet, a drummer and a violin. You had to have a violin for the Scottish dances. The only thing they had up there at the time for dancing was three old, three old ladies. Not the ones in the lavatory, the three old ladies with an accordion and a drummer and violin. So our band went down a storm you know. We had no musical flare. Just buy in. We played in dances all over the place and we were stationed in Castle Grant and the Earl of Seafield, the Countess of Seafield was still in residence while we were there. And then in the winter when the winter came on she moved to the country house, Cullen on the coast and she asked us, our band to play at her going away party and we played in the big hall in the castle with all the accoutrements. All the swords and everything else around the walls and all the ancestors looking down on us and all the ladies were in Highland evening dress and all the gentlemen were in Highland evening dress with the velvet jackets and all the silver trimmings and things you know. And it was absolutely wonderful. It was a wonderful sight because we were playing all the Scottish dances, Scottish reels, “Strip The Willow,” you know, [unclear] Reel,” “The Dashing White Sergeant,” all these sort of things and of course as the evening went on they got more merry and the CO came to us beforehand saying, ‘Now listen lads,’ you know, ‘When you’re up there we don’t want any jackets all open or, you know drinking or beer and things like this,’ he said, ‘You’re in with the society. You’ve got to keep to the letter.’ We hadn’t been there half an hour when the countess came up with a tray of beers and said, ‘Here you are lads. Get on with it. [laughs] And undo your jackets, you know you’ll be uncomfortable sitting up here in all this heat. Its too warm.’ You know. And she was absolutely charming and, but I’ll never forget, have never forgotten that dance for the spectacle. It was absolutely wonderful. Anyway, shortly afterwards there was a notice posted on the, in the unit asking for volunteers for aircrew duties. So I volunteered. They said you should never volunteer in the Army but I thought well I’ll have a go here and so I volunteered. I was accepted and in June of 1940, 1941. 1940.
Interviewer: ’41 I should think.
LR: Be ’41. June ’41. I moved. I was sent down to Stratford on Avon and sworn into the Air Force in the Shakespeare Theatre there and from there moved up to Scarborough to the ITU, IT.
Interviewer: ITW.
LR: IT Initial Training Unit.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: ITU. Billeted in the Grand at Scarborough right on the top floor. It was, that would be at the end of June we were going up there and the weather was absolutely wonderful. We had a wonderful time there. Did all these lectures. We used to go, come down, the lecture rooms were all at the bottom of course and we’d do half and hour or an hour’s lecture and we had to go back up to our room, up all these steps. No lifts. Up all these stairs, get the lecture book for the next lecture. Back down the stairs again and then the next lecture up the stairs again. Down again. And then in the afternoon we used to go down to the beach for PT. That meant going up the stairs, change into PT kit, down the stairs again and then I don’t know if you know the Grand. It’s up on the cliff and there’s more stairs right, led down to the beach. Doubled down these stairs down to the beach. A quarter of an hour, a half an hour PT, a dip in the sea and double back up all these stairs again. I’ve often said I’d never been so fit in all my life as I was when I left Scarborough. And then we were put on a, we went through all the exams and things and put on a draft to go to California, was it? No. Florida. Florida. So off we went. We went to West Kirby near Liverpool to be transported and then they found they’d got two to many on our draft so they knocked two off. Me and another chap called Roberts who was next to me on the list. They picked the two in the middle and took us off. So off we went back to Scarborough. So then we had to wait for the next draft and the next draft took us to Rhodesia as it was then. And we went up to Rhodesia. We went up, we sailed from Glasgow. We went back to West Kirby and then we went up to Glasgow to get on board ship and strangely enough we went on the King George the 5th docks and while I was in the Army I’d done sentry duty on that, on that dock while we were up there. And so we set sail for land. For Africa. We landed at Durban and then we spent a couple of days at Durban and we went by train. I wish we’d known. I wish we’d appreciated. We did what is now train journey up through Natal and all up through all the old Mafikeng and places like that and up to Rhodesia which I think was three days we were aboard on this train. We eventually got to Bulawayo and we spent some time there. While we were there another thing that happened there which was rather amusing was the flight sergeant in charge of discipline came around after we got this. ‘Any of this new batch, any of you play water polo?’ Well, I had. I’d played for the county of Northumberland at water polo. So, ‘Yes. I’ve played.’ And then there was, actually I think it was five of us and the rest of them were off from well-known clubs. Two of them were from the London Police Club which was well known and another one from the Otter’s Club and all really good water polo players, far better than me and the flight sergeant he just couldn’t believe his luck. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We play regularly. We played the town team,’ he said, ‘And they hammered us every time.’ So we were there about two, three weeks maybe waiting for a posting and in that time we played I think five or six games. We won them all in double figures. And then we, then we were posted and we could see in the newspapers the poor old Air Force team was being hammered again. The flight sergeant, he just couldn’t believe it. Anyway, we went up to Mount Hampden on a pilot’s course and I passed out on Tiger Moths. When I say passed out I mean I passed the course [laughs] passed out at other times [laughs] And I was posted then to, back down to, literally Mount Hampden was up near Salisbury which is now Zimbabwe and I passed. Passed that course. Then went down on twinned Oxfords down at Heany which was near Bulawayo. I was ready to go solo on the Oxfords and the chief instructor sent for me. He said, ‘We’re taking you off flying.’ I said, ‘Oh, why?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Your reactions are too slow.’ ‘Oh.’ So he said, ‘We’ll send you back up to Salisbury and then you’ll go on a navigator’s course.’ On an Observer’s course it was then. Observer. So I said, ‘Oh, alright.’ You know. So off I went. When I got up there a crowd of us all at the same, on the same boat been taken off these courses. So one of them came around. He said, ‘Where were you on ground subjects? The navigation and things like that on the course?’ Because we had taken ground subjects as well of course and I said, ‘Well, as near as I know fairly near the top. So he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘We all were.’ He said, ‘We think what’s happened is that they’ve taken the top two off each course and because they were running, everybody wanted to be pilots and they were running short of navigators or observers as it was and whether that was true or not I don’t know but I like to think so. And so I went down from there. We moved down to a camp between Johannesburg and Pretoria and we spent Easter there. And then we were sent down on a course to East London and did the observer’s course there. The observer’s course was you passed three courses. You passed which you probably know, you passed as an air gunner, a bomb aimer and navigator. You had to pass three courses and so we went through all that then moved down to Cape Town to get the boat home and we came back on our own. We didn’t come back in convoy. We came back on an armed merchantman and came back to this country. We were down in Cheltenham I think it was for a while and then posted up to Finningley on an OTU course ready for operations. And while I was there the OTU disbanded and one of the instructors, a pilot, squadron leader sent for me and asked me to go with him. He was going back on a second tour and he would like me to go along as his bomb aimer. Oh, when we got to Finningley that was the thing, when we got to Finningley we arrived late evening, a crowd of us and the next morning we reported to the navigation office and the navigation officer said, ‘Which of you are navigators and which of you are bomb aimers?’ Because by this time they’d separated the two and we said we are all full observers. We’ve done the lot. The officer said, ‘Right.’ He counted us off. He said, ‘You half there you’re navigators and you half there you’re bomb aimers.’ So I became a bomb aimer. And –
Interviewer: Were you disappointed not to be a navigator? Or was —
LR: Yeah. Well, the navigator had more sort of kudos to it.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: Shall we say? You know but I, in actual fact the bomb aimer was fairly simple job compared to the navigator. And so then we were posted. This squadron leader asked me to go with him on his second tour. He was doing his second tour and he was taking a second tour crew with him apart from the bomb aimer and engineer. So I went with him. The only snag was I had to do thirty trips while they were only doing twenty so I had to try and get in a few trips to catch him up when bomb aimers went sick. So we were posted to 50 Squadron. That was February the 1st I think when we went to 50 Squadron. I did twenty, twenty three trips I think altogether and then —
Interviewer: Do you remember some of the ops you went on.
LR: Pardon?
Interviewer: Some of the ops that you went on.
LR: Oh, they’re all down here. [pause – pages turning] The first op was on Wilhelmshaven and I flew with, remember a chap named Maudsley [unclear] I flew with him.
Interviewer: Oh right.
LR: Not my own pilot. And then we went on a cross country. We went on a cross country and everything went wrong on this cross country. Before we went on ops the whole crew, we did a training flight and it was a brand new aircraft. It was, it turned out there was something wrong with the compasses because I was up in the nose doing the map reading. It was daylight. A daylight thing and we had to fly down to Cambridge and then from Cambridge we were going across to Wales. South Wales, then up the Welsh coast and back to Lincoln. So we set course from here to Cambridge and I thought well that’s fair enough. There’s not, it’s the only big city [unclear] so I took it easy up in the front. Saw this big town coming up and I said, ‘Oh there’s a town coming up now, you know. This will be Cambridge.’ It will be Cambridge, Jock, wouldn’t it?’ You know just as the navigator was Jock. ‘Yeah, it should be.’ So we looked. We said, ‘It’s a bit big for Cambridge.’ And it was London [laughs] I know how trigger happy the crew were. We were frantically firing off the colours of the day and all this. So then we set course then back for Wales and it turned out that on courses east to west or west to east the compasses worked. But on north and south courses they were all haywire. We flew up the Welsh course. Of course, we knew going up the Welsh coast exactly where we were. And we of course had to map read from then on without a doubt. And then we landed back in at Skellingthorpe and as we landed the tyre burst and we cartwheeled along the runway, wrote the aircraft off. Cartwheeled along the runway and we all got out without any injury. That was absolutely amazing. And then after that I went to St Nazaire, Duisburg, twice I went to St Nazaire. And then I did a couple of so-called gardening trips laying mines and at Duisburg twice. On April the 8th and April the 9th I was with my own pilot. Then I went the next night with another pilot. His bomb aimer must have been sick. Then La Spezia, in Italy and then we did that boomerang trip. You know, when we went, we bombed Italy and went down to North Africa. And then we couldn’t get back to this country because of fog coming down so we spent a week down in Algiers and had the time of our life really. And then we flew back again.
Interviewer: How did you feel on these trips? Were you, you know did you dread them? Did you —
LR: Did we —?
Interviewer: Did you dread them or did you just see them as a job or —
LR: No.
Interviewer: Frightened.
LR: It was a job you know. People got shot down but it wasn’t you.
Interviewer: No.
LR: It was never going to be you. We would be alright. Frightened? Well, yes up to a point. Up to a point and you would go to the target and of course in the nose you’re looking at, you see the target and all the searchlights and flares going down and all sort of things and at the back there was a wonderful firework display if you like to put it that way but you think well how the hell am I going to get through this lot? And then came the job of dropping the bombs. And then you sort of dropped it and out the other side and you’d think we got through it. Then you’d set a course from home and that was it.
Interviewer: A lot of bomber crews put it down to teamwork but you were with a lot of different crews. Did that make any difference?
LR: It did up to a point. Yes. My own crew were brilliant. They really were. And we did some nice stuff. There were two things when I went with other pilots where one the navigator hadn’t a clue and we were leaving the target [papers shuffling]. Sorry.
Interviewer: Ok.
LR: And we did this one trip with this crew and he didn’t have a clue when we left the target. We set course and he didn’t know where we were and then we saw these islands. I was up in the nose and of course it was dark. I couldn’t see anything until I saw, ‘There’s coast coming up ahead pilot.’ He said, ‘Yes. Right. We’ll try and pinpoint something.’ Then there was some islands. I said, ‘There’s some islands down there in the sea.’ ‘Oh, bloody hell. It’s the Channel Islands.’ And of course, we got shot up all the while [laughs] but we knew where we were then of course and we had to land on the south coast because we were short of petrol. We were really running out of petrol and we landed I think one of the south coast aerodromes and we had breakfast there and, and then topped up with petrol and came back. But and there was another one where we had to ask assistance. We got back to this country and you could ask for assistance and what they did they sent up a searchlight and give you the exact coordinates of the searchlight so that the navigator knew where he was. And then that was, that was alright. You see it wasn’t very often that you could get a pinpoint at night except on one occasion I flew with a pilot to Italy. Milan, I think it was. Anyway, we flew on this one and it was absolutely bright moonlight and I was able to map read all the way over France it was so bright. And I map read right to the target and back again and giving the navigator pin points all the way. So, and then the result of this was a couple of days later or maybe a little bit later the bomb aimer for this particular pilot he’d been sick that night. The bomb aimer of this particular pilot came to me and said, ‘You’ve given me a right job you have.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘The pilot wants me to map read every night when we go.’ So I had to, I had to go to the pilot and say, ‘Look, that was exceptional that night.’ I said, ‘It doesn’t happen every night.’ So the poor old bomb aimer was taking the flak because, because I’d done a map reading and he wasn’t. And then we went, we did the Pilson raid. The first one. And we went on this raid and we used to have a kitty, the bomb aimers, we used to put a couple of bob each as it was then. Two bob. And the one who got like nearest the aiming point —
Interviewer: Got the photo.
LR: Scooped. The photo scoop.
Interviewer: Yeah.
LR: And I won it that night. I think I was four miles from the target. I can’t remember but it was several mile. It was more than a mile from the target and I won it and what happened was there was a little village near Pilson which was more or less the same shape and the PFF marked that village and we bombed the village and had to go back. I didn’t go on the second one but they sent another had to go back and do the raid again on Pilson.
Interviewer: You mentioned Henry Maudsley. Do you remember anything about him?
LR: Not really. No. Very aloof.
Interviewer: Ah.
LR: Sort of man. In a polite sort of way. You know. He was. Didn’t know much about him. He was a gentleman. Put it that way. He was a nice man. He was very good. Yes. Very good. On my first trip he was quite good to me. He was nice. We did trips to Pilsen and Duisburg and another one to Duisburg. That one we were attacked by a Junckers 88 on that one and I was with a Squadron Leader Birch. And his tactics if you saw a fighter was shove the nose down and the tale was told whether it was true or not several tales used to be told but two tales that were told about him which I shall tell you about so the rear gunner reported a fighter. I wasn’t with them. And so he put the nose down and dived down and the navigator was looking over his shoulder and said, ‘Where are you going? What are you doing?’ He said, ‘Diving down into that cloud.’ He said, ‘That’s not cloud. It’s snow.’ [laughs] Now, whether that was true or not I don’t know but it makes a nice tale.
Interviewer: They lived to tell it.
LR: Another time I was on leave and when I came back somebody said, ‘You ought to have been here.’ He said, ‘Peter Birch, he flew over Skellingthorpe with all the engines feathered.’ He said, ‘He got height and got to speed, feathered the engines and feathered all four engines and went over the aerodrome.’ Now whether that was possible or not I don’t, I mean people pooh pooh the idea. Whether it was true or whether it was a story again I don’t know. I’ve never been able to verify it. But it was said that he flew over, over the edge with all four engines feathered. So I don’t know. I don’t know whether that’s true or not. I went to Dortmund. Wuppertal. Wuppertal is, wipe that out. Oberhausen. In June Turin. Oh, we went on a special trip to Reggio Emilia which is Northern Italy and it was, that was the one when we had to go down to Africa because it was in July and we couldn’t get back to this country without flying over France in daylight. So we went down to North Africa. We flew down there and my pilot was second in command of our Group. A Group I think it was five or six aircraft to attack this transformer station. Two of them we had to rendezvous over Lake Como I think it was. Two of them, two of them collided and crashed into Lake Como. The rest went on and there was a ground mist. We were having trouble identifying the target but eventually we identified it and we had to call up the other aircraft with a call signal. A code signal to say that we had got this aircraft and we dropped TI markers to identify it and they couldn’t see them. They didn’t know where it was so we went around and bombed the transformer station and then went around again and machine gunned it and we set course then for North Africa. To Blida. The others didn’t find it at all. They just went on and abandoned it. And this, this other group a squadron leader was in charge. He got a DFC and the navigator got a DFC as well. We were, we were a bit chuffed about that. So no and oh when we got to, went to Blida which was near Algiers and we had, we couldn’t get back to this country.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Try that. Ok.
LR: Ok. When we had gone on this trip to North Africa the, apart from our crew the gunnery leader on the squadron wanted to go as well. He wanted to. He fancied this trip you see so he came along with us on the trip and we got to Blida and this chap’s name, he was well known that he never bought a drink. He was always missing when it was his round and a chap called, his name was Hipkin so my pilot was a pretty good at impersonating. He used to get on the telephone impersonating. There was all sorts of things went, jokes went on with this impersonating but while we were there he went, we had a big Mess at Blida. He went to the upstairs phone and phoned the bottom one and asked for Flight Lieutenant Hipkin, you see. And so he said, ‘Me. Here?’ You know, and off he went to the phone and he said, ‘Oh yes, we need a gunnery leader at –’ one of the bigger air place near Algiers. There’s a big, there was a big air base there. Anyway, he said, ‘We need an air gunner leader there so we’re posting you there.’ And he came back to us and he said, ‘I’ve been posted. I’ve been posted to Algiers.’ You know. We said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘What do I do?’ He says, ‘My wife’s back home,’ he said, ‘My car’s back there at the squadron. All my gear. What am I going to do?’ So we said, ‘Well, what is the posting?’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘It’s a squadron leader posting.’ ‘Oh, you got promotion then.’ ‘Well it seems so.’ We said, ‘Well that calls for a drink.’ So he had to buy a round and then he became so agitated towards the finish the pilot went upstairs again and phoned again. Flight Lieutenant Hipkin. So he says, ‘Flight Lieutenant Hipkin? Yes. Yes. That’s me.’ He said, ‘What was your name?’ ‘Hipkin.’ ‘Ah,’ he says, ‘It’s not Hipkin we want. It’s Pipkin.’ He said, ‘We’ve got the wrong man.’ [laughs] So he came back down, he said, ‘Oh, it’s all a mistake,’ he said. So, ‘Well, that calls for another drink then.’ [laughs] So, you know, we did several trips after that to Milan, Leverkusen, Hanover, Cassel. Oh, we got this new wing commander and he took over our crew because my pilot had been posted away after he’d just done just, I think he’d only done seventeen trips and they posted him away. Anyway, we got this new wing commander and he took over the crew. ‘Right. We’ll go on a bombing trip to practice bombing.’ To Wainfleet. And up to then I’d been using the old mark, I forget what mark it was bombsight. The one where you used two dials and you used to have to twiddle these dials. Anyway, got on board this one and it had got the new Mark 10 or Mark 11. Something like that. Automatic. I’d never used one before. So I knew briefly how it worked. Well, I knew how it worked but what I couldn’t find when I got on board was I couldn’t find the switch to switch it on. So with a new wing commander, yeah and we were getting near Wainfleet and I thought well there’s only one thing to do. I can drop them by sight. I can’t, I can’t tell him. I can’t [laughs] I can’t find the switch for bloody working [laughs] So anyway, we were just turning, running on to the target and I clicked this switch and the thing worked. The bomb, it came around lovely and came and all the settings and I was able to bomb. Another, another time with my own crew we were practicing a time and distance run where you bomb a target. Let’s bomb something. Sight something that’s say two or three miles away from the target and then the navigator works out how long it would be. How long it would take to get from there to the target.
Interviewer: Yeah.
LR: And then it tells you when to press the button. And we did this on the bombing run at Wainfleet. So we started off and you worked out the time and distance and everything and said right. Now, I’m sat in the bomb aimers place. Not looking or anything. Right. Press the button and the bomb went off. Did a practice bomb and went off. I looked down and to my horror there was a line of trawlers going out. The bomb was heading straight for them. Fortunately missed them. That was the crew. And then of course it was Frankfurt. Missing.
Interviewer: [Frighteningly]
LR: I was shot down in Frankfurt.
Interviewer: Right. If you’d like to tell us about that it would be —
LR: Well, we were just running up towards the target and we were attacked by a Junkers 88. They attacked us. The first attack set the port engine, inner engine on fire and the pilot managed to stop that. He came around and again and I looked through the inspection hatch where the bomb bay, the bomb bays were on fire. And then he came around for a third attack and knocked out the, one of the starboard engines and the pilot gave the order to abandon because we were burning pretty well by then. And we had, the crew had just chest parachutes. We had the two hooks. I grabbed mine, put it on and missed one of the hooks. So just one hook fastened and as I did that the plane blew up. Now, I don’t know whether it was the petrol tanks that went or whether it was the bomb that went but the plane blew up. It threw me forward on to the bombsight and knocked me unconscious for a while and when I came to the entire nose of the plane had been blown off and I was trapped in there. My legs were trapped somehow. I don’t know what was coming. I tried to get out. Anyway, what I did I pulled the rip cord, the parachute pulled me out and I damaged my leg in doing it. I don’t know what happened. It was, I didn’t break it or anything. It just, my knee was, went funny and then I was holding the parachute for oh less than half a minute I should think. So if I hadn’t got out soon I would have you know. I don’t know how far I pulled and I landed in the middle of a wood. Fortunately, I landed in the same direction as the wind on a path so I didn’t get caught up in the trees. So I buried my parachute and whatnot and sort of started walking to see where I was and by, I walked at night. My leg kept giving way under me. I had a lot of trouble with that. I kept falling. But I came through a couple of villages and by this time it was starting getting light in the morning so I had a look for some place to hide. I walked to one village and people walking past me going to work I assume, you know. One of them said, ‘Morgen,’ you know. I said, ‘Morgen.’ And look, you know they didn’t take any notice of me.
Interviewer: Obviously –
LR: I was in my flying kit. Yeah. Battledress.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: And flying boots. And I got on the banks of this river. I knowing it was the Oder and, was it the Oder? Yes, it was the Oder. And there was a sort of lot of bushes and things there and I hid underneath these bushes and stayed there all day. I slept in actual fact and it was cold because it was January. It was December. December. And I stayed there all day. Then the next at night I got up to start walking again and I was way out on the road, nothing in sight and suddenly I heard the shout, ‘Halt.’ And it was just some German soldiers. So I tried the good morning trick, you know. ‘Morgen. Morgen.’ But it didn’t work [laughs] and they came up and shone a torch on me you know and I heard one of them say, ‘Englisher Flieger.’ You know. And rifles came off their shoulders and came down. That was that. I was taken prisoner. They took me to their headquarters. They were, they weren’t Army. They were Air Force, I think. And what happened they were guarding a Halifax which had crashed nearby and of course I shouldn’t have been out there so they took me in. They set me down at this table and they brought, a German officer came in and he sat at the other side of the table and I was sat on a stool and he said, he started to try and question me and he didn’t speak very good English. Very little English in actual fact. And I just said I didn’t understand. I didn’t understand. And then all of a sudden I got such a belt across the head. Knocked me off the stool and on to the floor and this, there was a German there, I think he was a sergeant major or something like that. He spoke perfect English. There was no doubt about it. And he said, ‘You stand on your feet. Stand.’ He said, ‘You stand on your feet when you’re talking to a German officer.’ Alright. You know. Nothing much I could do about that. So he said, ‘I’ll have your name, number, rank.’ At that time I was flying officer. I said, ‘Flying officer.’ So he said, ‘You’re not an officer.’ So I said, ‘Yes I am. Flying officer.’ ‘Where are your badges of rank’? I said and of course I had my battle dress so I said, ‘On my battle dress. On the shoulder.’ ‘Oh, they’re not badges of rank.’ He said, ‘Your badges of rank go on the sleeve.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘These are my badges of rank.’ He said, ‘Where are your papers?’ I said, ‘I don’t have papers.’ He said, ‘When the Luftwaffe went over England,’ he said, ‘They had papers. Identity papers.’ I said, ‘But I’m not in the Luftwaffe.’ I said, ‘I’m in the Royal Air Force,’ I said, ‘And the only identity I have are these.’ I took my identity disks out and showed him. I said, ‘We don’t carry papers. We carry these.’ And he looked and the disks weren’t stamped with a rank. They were just stamped officer. He said, ‘Oh, you are an officer after all.’ I said, ‘Yeah. That’s what I’ve been saying.’ ‘Oh well,’ he said, ‘In that case,’ he said, ‘You’ll be hungry and thirsty no doubt.’ He said, ‘If you just sit down,’ he said, ‘And I’ll go and see if I can get you something.’ And he came back with the best glass of lager I’ve ever had in my life [laughs] and some black bread which was the worst bread I’ve ever had in my life.
Interviewer: Was he someone who did interrogations regularly do you think?
LR: No.
Interviewer: No.
LR: No, he wasn’t. These were Army.
Interviewer: Right.
LR: Air force, ordinary Air Force people.
Interviewer: Oh.
LR: And as it happens the main Interrogation Centre for aircrew was at Frankfurt.
Interviewer: Dulag Luft.
LR: Where I’d been shot down and there was, I had an armed guard the next morning took me to Frankfurt. I remember we went into the station and he sat me down on this seat. One of them stood there while the other one went off to make some enquiries and there was a civilian came past and he spat at me. Spat in my face. And the guard just moved him on. He, you know, ‘Go on.’ And when I saw the state of Frankfurt when I went through I could understand his feelings. Of course, then I went and we got on a tram and we went on a tram to Dulag Luft and as I remember it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
LR: Along with all the German people. A bit vulnerable really because Frankfurt was in ruins. And then they took me to Dulag Luft, straight into solitary confinement which was the psychological thing. Put into solitary confinement and when you’ve been put in there for a couple of days you could talk your head off when you come out. All they did was give me food and then there was a chap came in. He said he was from the Swiss Red Cross and, ‘Right. Name, number and rank,’ you see. ‘Where were you stationed?’ ‘What was you squadron?’ I said, ‘I can’t tell you that.’ He said, ‘Well, it’s only so I can tell your relatives. Inform your relatives that you’re safe.’ See. I said, ‘Well, all you need for that is my name, number and rank.’ He said, ‘Well, it would look better if you tell me.’ I said, ‘No. It’s not.’ [laughs] You know. Anyway, then they took me up. As it was early December and Christmas was coming up they took me out of solitary confinement early along with a lot of others. But first of all I had to go up for interrogation and again it was the proper interrogation people and he said, ‘Name, number and rank.’ I told them and they started asking questions and I had to say, ‘I can’t tell you that. I can’t.’ You know. They said, ‘Well, we know all about you, you know. It’s just a case of you verifying what we know.’ So I said, ‘Well, if you know all about me,’ I said, ‘I don’t need to tell you do I?’ He said, ‘How is Squadron Leader Parkes doing in his new post?’ And that threw me. Squadron Leader Parkes, he’d been promoted two days beforehand at the squadron, as squadron commander as a squadron leader. And only two days beforehand. ‘Now, how is Squadron Leader Parkes taken to his new post?’ New post.
Interviewer: You would have been trained in what would happen.
LR: Oh, we were told.
Interviewer: But were you prepared for how much they did know?
LR: No. I wasn’t.
Interviewer: No.
LR: I was amazed what they did know. Started telling me different things you see and that the idea is we were warned against this. The idea is to say well if they know that we might as well tell them what else they want to know. But if they gleaned just that little bit of information then they can use it on the next one. They said, they said, ‘We’ve got a friend of yours here.’ I said, ‘Who’s that?’ He said, ‘Flying Officer Hookes.’ I said, ‘Flying Officer Hookes? I don’t know anybody of that name.’ ‘Yeah. Flying Officer Hookes.’ And it turned out it was Flying Officer Hughes. They couldn’t pronounce it properly and Flying Officer Hughes was shot down that night. The same night. We became very good fiends in actual fact. Tommy Hughes. And that was it. Then they sort of released us. Well, I say released us they put us in a room altogether and because I’d damaged my knee they gave me a hospital bed to rest on. But then they transferred us then from there to Belaria, Stalag Luft 3 by the usual cattle truck.
Interviewer: Did you meet up with Hope who had also survived the –
LR: Not ‘til later.
Interviewer: Right.
LR: I thought that I was the only survivor because they said they’d found the bodies in the plane.
Interviewer: Oh, they did tell you.
LR: The Germans told me this at the time.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: They had found the plane with the bodies inside and what not.
Interviewer: Right.
LR: But they didn’t tell me that the wireless operator was safe and apparently he was blown through the side of the plane. No. He had applied for a commission and his commission came through after he was shot down.
Interviewer: Oh.
LR: And so the Germans being the Germans transferred him to an officer camp.
Interviewer: Oh.
LR: Which Stalag Luft 3 was an officer camp.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: And they transferred to him and he came and he came to Belaria.
Interviewer: You must have been surprised to see him.
LR: I was. He was surprised to see me [laughs] Yeah. And that was that. So I started life as a prisoner of war.
Interviewer: I don’t know, you can’t prepare yourself for anything like that so how did you find it or you know was it something to –
LR: Well, I spent the first three weeks I think it would be in hospital while they tried to do something about my knee and it was all swollen and they said I’d got fluid on it and whatnot and they were trying to treat me. I was in prison camp and it didn’t matter how long it took sort of thing. I had to have heat and used to have a big shield put over my leg with electric light bulbs in which was all heat. This went on until eventually I came out and went to the hut that had been with Tommy Hughes as well was in there. And —
Interviewer: How many more were in your particular hut?
LR: There were I think eight of us to start with. In the hut. In the room. The hut —
Interviewer: Oh yes. The rooms in the hut.
LR: Was divided into rooms.
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes.
LR: And I think it was eight to start with and then in double bunks.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: Double bunks. And then they put another bunk on the top and made them triple bunks and put more people in. We had some Poles came in and, a couple of Poles and it was quite crowded in actual fact.
Interviewer: And everyday life in a –
LR: Well, boredom was the main —
Interviewer: Right.
LR: Problem. People took courses. If somebody was an expert accountant he would, he would start teaching people accountancy or and so forth. Anything like that you see. And of course, there was, I was fortunate in that I was musical. I played a guitar and we had a band and that kept me busy because we used to do arranging and all sorts of things like that so that filled the day in. Arranging concerts and things. We had a very good band in actual fact. The leader was a chap called Whiteley, Len Whiteley who had been trumpeter with Billy Cotton’s band. And later on we got some Americans in the camp and we got a base player who used to play with one of the big American bands, you know. He was good. He was a good arranger as well. So we managed, you know.
Interviewer: You weren’t involved in escaping yourself but did you know –
LR: No.
Interviewer: Of people that were and did you take any part in —
LR: I didn’t take any part at all in the escape but we knew of it afterwards. Not before. We didn’t know. I mean these things were kept very quiet obviously. For obvious reasons. But we knew of it and the camp commandant, our camp commandant, the senior British officer as he was called was he said we were to boycott the Germans altogether. Not to speak to them. We used to bribe them for bring in, bring in a couple of eggs and give them a cigarette something like that but we weren’t. We had to stop all that sort of thing. Not to talk to them. Ignore them.
Interviewer: Tell us the story about the radio please.
LR: Oh. The radio. Well, we had a radio and it was this radio was dismantled. The carcase of the radio was hidden under the coals. Under a heap of coals in the hospital block. And the components were taken out each night and given to separate people, different people so that if one was sort of discovered it would just be one item gone and the radio was assembled every night for the 6 o’clock news. To receive the 6 o’clock news from Britain and then dismantled again and shared around. We became short. We had a valve failure. Now a valve in actual fact was a fairly major component and so we needed to get another one. Now, in the camp we had apart from the guards there were these goons. Well, we called them goons. Or ferrets. Ferrets we called them and they used to go around looking for trouble. And they used to go around looking for trouble like long screw drivers which they used to try to poke into the earth to try and detect tunnels and they would look under the huts because the huts were on, were built up over the ground on stilts more or less. Short stilts of course. And they would walk into a room looking to see if anybody was doing anything they shouldn’t be doing. Now, if they found anything important they were given a week’s leave and instant promotion to the next higher rank. So and at that time there was a tunnel in progress which had flooded. We found it did flood in the Belaria compound. We couldn’t get a tunnel going because it flooded. So we bodged this tunnel up. I say we I didn’t have anything to do with it. But they bodged this tunnel up so it looked like the genuine thing and then they said to one of the ferrets, ‘Bring us in a valve for the radio,’ you know. Oh No. No. He couldn’t do that. Couldn’t do that. That’s much too much. You know. So we said, ‘Look, if you do we’ll show you a tunnel.’ Ah. And so in came the valve. We got the valve for the radio. The ferret went off and reported to the commanding officer who’d only been there for a couple of weeks and he came bounding out in white overalls and everything saying, ‘Ah you know you can’t beat us Germans.’ And things like this and he was delighted. The commandant reported to his superiors that he’d found a tunnel and the ferret got his week’s leave and we got our valve. So everybody was happy. Yeah. So some funny things went on. I don’t know how far it’s true this story but I did, the story went around that now we had to be careful when a new influx of prisoners came in that they didn’t infiltrate a German with them. So they had, all prisoners had to be vetted. When we used to flock around the gates. Flocking around the gates wasn’t to welcome the prisoners as much as to see if you knew anybody. And if you knew somebody you pointed them out. Oh we knew him, you know. So that invariably everybody knew somebody. And apparently they got one chap who was suspect in this place and when they questioned him closely he didn’t seem very knowledgeable about things. Not as knowledgeable as he should have been and they were fairly sure, absolutely sure really that he was a German infiltrator and so they reported to the commandant the next day that one of their men had been too overcome. It had been too much for him. He drowned himself in the fire pool. And now, I can’t verify that story but it was prevalent at the time. It came around. It wasn’t in our compound and as I say it’s a story you’ve got to be careful about telling really.
Interviewer: You’ve met or at least knew of personalities like Bob Stanford Tuck and Douglas Bader.
LR: I never met Bader. I met Tuck and Roland Beamont.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: He came while I was there. He came to the camp and for the next two days I should think or more than that you couldn’t separate him and Tuck. They were there with their hands going all over the place fighting all the battles all over again [laughs]
Interviewer: But not good reports of Bader’s behaviour.
LR: Bader wasn’t well liked. He, we had Escape Committees and if you had any ideas for escape you put them to the Escape Committee and they decided on the feasibility of it and what not. Also, the main reason was that you didn’t try some foolhardy, foolhardy attempt and jeopardise any escape attempt that was in progress. So, but Bader would have none of that. He said if he got the chance he would go regardless. He didn’t believe in Escape Committees and he was fairly arrogant I believe. And although I’d never met him but I know he wasn’t well liked.
Interviewer: And when you heard about the fifty that had been shot after the Great Escape that must have been a terrible shock.
LR: Oh, that was, you know. We just couldn’t get over it. It put a whole new light on escaping really. Any attempt to escape before that was sort of an adventure if you’d like to put it that way. If you got away with it well and good. If not well well what it did among other things if somebody escaped it tied up the police and Home Guard in the area or the military in the area trying to find them, you know. And we thought well, you know keep the Germans busy. If they’re looking for me then I’ve done something else.
Interviewer: Did morale drop in the –
LR: It did a bit. Yes. We said, well what do we do about escaping, you know?
Interviewer: So you, you stayed there until July, January ’45.
LR: Yes.
Interviewer: And the –
LR: When the Russians advanced.
Interviewer: Yes. And —
LR: We could hear the Russian guns.
Interviewer: And did you feel that this was, you know –?
LR: Well, this is the end. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: This is the end. But then Hitler ordered that if prison camps looked like being overrun the prisoners had to be shot you know. And they dropped, the Air Force dropped leaflets warning prison commandants that they were responsible and if any prisoners were harmed [pause] I’ve got one of the leaflets in actual fact. And they, we didn’t know what to make of it really. We didn’t know what, you know. Anyway, we, we moved out of the camp and we walked through —
Interviewer: You weren’t given much notice I don’t think.
LR: Not a lot of notice. We said that we were going to go out one day. I think it was as I remember it was, we said we would go out one morning and then it was postponed until the next day. Something like that. And anyway, we went off walking and it wasn’t very good.
Interviewer: And the snow and the cold.
LR: It was a cold winter of course and the winters out there were particularly cold.
Interviewer: And you wouldn’t have much clothes.
LR: Just sleeping at night in barns and pig styes or whatever wherever we could. Just bed down and just as we were.
Interviewer: I understand that the guards suffered as much as the –
LR: The guards did.
Interviewer: Yes.
LR: Of course they did. Yes. Yes. Yes, they were fed up.
Interviewer: And you were taken to —
LR: To Luckenwalde. Now, that was a big camp, you know. There were French, Italians, Russians. Oh, the Russians they were absolutely badly treated the Russians were. The Russian prisoners. We used to see them being taken out to work you know and you know, terrible. But when we were, we were released we went into the Russian barracks and some of the murals that they’d painted on the walls were fantastic. The Russians released us but in actual fact we were still prisoners of the Russians then because there was this thing going on at home between Stalin and Churchill over the Cossacks. And I believe, we didn’t know at the time but I think we were held as political prisoners to a bargaining thing because we didn’t, we weren’t released until June. We listened to the May, the VE Day celebrations. We listened to them on the radio in the camp. We were still in the camp.
Interviewer: How did you feel about that?
LR: Not very, not very much. We were fed up with the Russians. In actual fact there was a jeep, an American jeep came through with some report, two reporters and they said, ‘Who are you lot?’ And we told them. They said, ‘Well, we didn’t know anything about you.’ They said, ‘We’ll have a convoy come and pick you up.’ And they did. The next day a convoy of American lorries arrived at the camp and some of the lads tried to get on board and the Russians wouldn’t let them. And we thought, we ran along, some of us ran along the road a bit. We could get out of the fence and catch the lorries as they were leaving because the Russians turned them around and the Russians fired on us. Fired over our heads and stopped us from getting on the lorries. They said what they wanted, they wanted to register us and the senior British officer said, ‘Tell me what you want registering.’ They wanted the name. Your name and your rank, number and where you lived. Where you came from. And he said, ‘If you give me a couple of days I’ll give you, I’ll get you all that.’ But no. they had to do it the Russian way and what they were doing they were translating it into Russian. Cyrillic lettering and it took them about two weeks to do it. It was all time wasting. We had, they let us out. They let us move from the camp. It was south and east a little bit. About a half a mile or so. We would go for a walk if we wanted to rather than be in the confines of the camp. They promised us radios and food and goodness knows what which never materialised and just on the other side of the wire there had been a park and there was a lovely lake there. So we, somebody said, ‘Oh, we’ll go swimming.’ And off we went to swim in the lake. Of course, nude of course. There were no swimming costumes and off we went. There was such a big thump in this lake. We wondered what on earth was that? Sort of looked around and the Russians were still on the thing, on the top throwing grenades into the water. Threw the grenades and they made a good bump. All the Russian girl soldiers were all there waiting and we all came scrambling out of the water you see [laughs] scrambled out and back into the barracks and the Russian girl soldiers laughing like mad. One of the things of course leading up to that was we got a lot of refugees in and woke up one day and the hut was divided into, big huts they were and divided in two. In the centre portion was a washing area with a big sort of round basin. Taps all the way around it where we could wash and whatnot. And we got up one morning and it was sort of walked down to this place and there was some ladies stripped off washing. Well, we just couldn’t believe it you know. We had to get washed and the toilets there were the seats, you know, open. There would seats along one side and then seats on this side and we went to the toilet and women were there as well thinking nothing of it. You’d just, you know and we just couldn’t get on with this somehow. Sharing a toilet with a lady and washing with her. You know. Especially having, having been cooped up for a long time. Yes. That was all very primitive. It was a very primitive camp was Luckenwalde. The food. We didn’t get any Red Cross parcels at first and the food was just barley and mint tea.
Interviewer: Was there a lot of illness?
LR: Not as much as you would expect, I think. The main trouble with that sort of thing was when they transported us. We were, they took us out once, they were going to move us from the camp and they put us in these railway trucks and crowded into these trucks you know with no toilet facilities and it used to be shocking. Of course, some of the men had diarrhoea and that and couldn’t control themselves and there was nothing they could do.
Interviewer: No.
LR: And we used to, we used to drain hot water out of the engines thing to make tea with, you know. Out of the engine tank. The steam. Steam engine. And oh, it wasn’t very good. Then they decided that after two or three days we couldn’t move anyway. The railways couldn’t move us so we went back into the camp again and we stopped there until they decided, the Russians decided that we could move. The Americans came. They took us to an American base and oh, we got there. White bread, coffee. Proper coffee and all proper food and everything. Luxury. And we were there for a while while they arranged transport to take us back. And they took us on a, we went on a Dakota back to Brussels. And then in Brussels we went on a Lincoln bomber back to England and the reception in England was absolutely fantastic. We didn’t know what to expect because we’d had, there were letters we got from home accusing us of being cowards for being prisoners of war and things like this you know. One letter a girl wrote to say she was marrying somebody else. She said, “I’d rather marry a –“ what was it? [pause] Rather marry this man than marry an Air Force coward. Something like that. But you know these things happen and we didn’t know what sort of reception to expect. So was that.
Interviewer: When you came home did you go to Cosford?
LR: I think. I think Cosford.
Interviewer: Yeah.
LR: Yes. Cosford. Yes. And when we got there there was a whole load of WAAFs waiting to escort us in and it was late at night. It was, it was around about twelvish or thereabouts and they’d had a dance there before, before we got there and the band had packed up. And they unpacked their instruments and played for a dance just for us. And we were all packed up and disinfected and goodness knows what and sent off home.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Les Rutherford
1022-Rutherford, Robert Leslie
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v26
Creator
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Claire Bennett
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-01-24
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:27:19 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Les Rutherford was called up for the Army just short of his twenty first birthday. He was in France at the time of Dunkirk and made it to the beach of St Valery where they were under constant bombardment. He and another soldier found a door and used that to paddle out to the Channel in the hopes of joining a ship to get back to England. A trawler rescued them both and passed them over to a British vessel. While still serving in the Army Les saw an advertisement for RAF aircrew and decided to volunteer. He was trained as an observer but was posted to 50 Squadron as a bomb aimer. His aircraft was shot down over Frankfurt after a triple attack by a Junkers 88. He spent the rest of the war as a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft 3 at Sagan.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
North Africa
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Lincolnshire
France--Dunkerque
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Oberursel
Poland--Żagań
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941-06
50 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
Dulag Luft
Ju 88
Lancaster
prisoner of war
RAF Skellingthorpe
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/147/46456/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v240002.mp3
efdbfb1e6fa09c97c42e6282e336d83e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cole, Colin
C Cole
Colin Cole
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection relates to Warrant Officer Colin Cole (1924 – 2015 RAF Volunteer Reserve 1605385) who served with 617 Squadron. The collection contains two oral history interviews his, logbook, service documents, medals, memorabilia from the Tirpitz and six photographs.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Six items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties or to comply with intellectual property regulations. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-27
2015-07-27
Identifier
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Cole, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: Well, good morning. This is Julian Maslin interviewing Colin Cole at his home at Bardney. Colin, I know you were a wireless operator on 617 Squadron. I wonder if I could just ask you just to say a little about your background and then go ahead and tell us the story that you have about the disposal of munitions at the end of the war. Colin —
CC: Right. Yes. I can do that. As far as my background is concerned I came in to the RAF in December of 1942 and to train as a wireless operator air gunner and I first went to Blackpool and then on to various training stations and my first entry in to Lincolnshire was when I joined number 617 Squadron at Woodhall Spa in August 1944. Right. Now, what would you like —
JM: I’d like you to say a little if you could about how you were involved in the operation to dispose of munitions. Particular types of munition at the end of the war.
CC: Oh right. Yes. The, yes after the dams raid there were a number of the mines, they called them Upkeeps, the Upkeep mines left over and they sort of gathered together what few there were left. I think there were around about ten or fifteen that needed disposing of. They were ended up at Scampton and in a rather unstable condition and there were arrangements made to dispose of them. Now, how I came to be involved in this was that they brought three aircraft down from Scotland which were, had already been converted for the original dams raid and so that they could carry the mines out to sea and drop them in a safe, in a safe place. The reason I was involved was that all that was needed really was a pilot. You didn’t need a whole crew but in that day and age every aircraft that flew, every Lancaster that flew had to carry a wireless operator. So I was seconded from 617 Squadron at Binbrook to go to Scampton and fly on, well as it turned out only two or three of these missions to dispose of the Upkeep mines. Now, the idea was that they should be loaded on to the aircraft, you know, in the normal way and dropped out to sea. The place they looked at dropping them was on the Atlantic Shelf. Just over the Atlantic shelf so that they dropped in to deep water and either exploded or just dropped to the bottom of the sea and there’s probably many of them still left down, left down there to this day you know. So that, that was basically all we did. I did two or three runs on these things and we’d drop them, you know sort of quite without any trouble at all and, and got rid of them. The, what was I going to say? [pause] There’s not really anything more to say about that apart from the aircraft, oh this was by the way in September 1945. ’46 sorry. September 1946 and onwards over the Christmas period and there were, there were others taking part in this of course and finished by about February of 1947 and then the aircraft were just scrapped and that was it. Yeah.
JM: You raise a number of points here that I’d like to explore.
CC: Yeah. Ask me questions.
JM: You don’t remember do you which aircraft by their squadron letters or whatever? I mean —
CC: I can remember by the squadron letters. The one I flew in was AJG.
JM: That was Gibson’s aircraft.
CC: The answer to that is going to be no.
JM: Oh.
CC: Gibson’s aircraft, as far as we can reckon was converted back into in a normal Lancaster and ended up with 467 Squadron at Waddington. Now the AJG that we had there had been originally a dams aircraft which was I think AJC. It had been converted back into a normal Lancaster. It had gone to Metheringham and it was used there for a bit and then it was converted back again into a dams aircraft when it was thought that the war may needs to drop more of these.
JM: Right.
CC: Mines, you know.
JM: Right.
CC: They were a sort of, and it was converted back and for some reason somebody painted AJG on it. But according to the code letters which stayed with the aircraft you know from the date of manufacture which I can’t remember off hand what it was it wasn’t the original AJG after all that [laughs] Everybody says that you know.
JM: Yes, you would.
CC: Yeah. And at the time nobody knew what Gibson’s aircraft was. It was only after the film came out in 1954 that all that came up to the —
JM: Yeah.
CC: Fore again, you know. I mean it was just another, just another old aircraft.
JM: Do you remember the letters of any of the other aircraft that were used because I think you said there were two or three?
CC: There were. Good question. I shall have to tell you that afterwards.
JM: Ok.
CC: I can look. I can look them up you know. Sort of —
JM: Moving on you said you’d been seconded from Binbrook to Scampton.
CC: Yes.
JM: Does that mean that 617 was actually transferred to Binbrook at one point?
CC: It was. It, 617 was destined for Tiger Force.
JM: Yes.
CC: In 1945, and we trained for Tiger Force and then the Japanese war ended and we still carried on training because we went out to India under South East Asia Command and then we only stayed out there for about what January, February, March, four months when India was, Mr Ghandi was jumping up and down about independence and he sent us back [laughs] We came back and we were posted. Posted to Binbrook. Yes.
JM: And the, the crew, the pilot that you flew with on, on these disposal operations was that pilot somebody who had extensive service with 617 or a recent arrival?
CC: No, it wasn’t actually. The, the pilots that, and that in the plural at that time my main secondment to Scampton was not for the mines at all but for pilots training for conversion on to Lincolns. And that was my main job there was flying with all sorts of pilots to train on to Lincolns and this was a sort of little job that came along while I was there.
JM: Perhaps we could return to the subject of Lincolns a bit later but I had —
CC: Yes.
JM: I had a feeling that perhaps there would have been quite a rush of people to get the opportunity to fly in a Dambusters Lancaster on a trip like this even, just as passengers Or am I being a bit nostalgic about that?
CC: No. Not particularly.
JM: Just a job was it?
CC: It was just a, yes I mean as I say and I can repeat this that it wasn’t until 1954 ’55 when the film came out that all this arose.
JM: Right.
CC: You know. I mean I can’t remember the squadron ever talking a lot about the dams raid that [pause] you know, we all knew about it of course.
JM: Yes.
CC: But no. It wasn’t [laughs] It was totally different. A different story you know.
JM: So when you went up to drop the mines did you drop them from low level as in the raid or from —
CC: Oh no. No. No. I think we dropped them from about eight thousand feet. Something like that. Just dropped them, you know. There was no spinning. They didn’t. They weren’t spun or anything like that. Just dropped them.
JM: They weren’t fused.
CC: Oh no. No. No. Ours didn’t go bang but I don’t know whether one or two did you know sort of on hitting the sea but no. Just [laughs] yeah.
JM: Well, that’s lovely. I wonder if I you could just turn your memory to the idea of training pilots to convert to Lincolns at Scampton because I’m sure that would be an extremely valuable piece of history. As far as I’m aware there’s not an awful lot written about that. Could you tell us a little bit about what the training programme was and how it went and any stories that you may have from that occasion?
CC: Well, there wasn’t really. The Lincoln was just a big Lancaster really, you know. It wasn’t like training on, I suppose on to a completely new aircraft. They only did circuits and landings. They didn’t do any cross-country work or anything like that and apart from one or two crews most of the pilots came on their own if you know what I mean. So, you know, posted on their own just to, I think it was just to get the feel of the aircraft. The fact that it was different in size and all that sort of thing you know. It was really. But I didn’t have any part in the, you know. I mean they naturally flew with an instructor, you know, sort of and as far as I can remember they weren’t there for all that long, you know. Only a few weeks of sort of getting used to the aircraft and then back on to the squadron.
JM: We know from history that when aircraft were introduced they often had initial teething problems and there often quite a few accidents before these wrinkles were ironed out. Was that the case for the Lincoln or was it seamless?
CC: Not particularly. It was, it was only an overgrown Lancaster in, in its sense if you know what I mean. It wasn’t a completely new aircraft. I didn’t hear of any, a lot of accidents. Not particular accidents. I think there was. I think there was an odd, you know later on there was an odd collision you know and that sort of thing but no great, no great teething troubles at all. So don’t know.
JM: I I know from previous conversations with you that one of the most important operations that you took part in when you were with 617 was the attack on the Tirpitz.
CC: Yes.
JM: I was wondering whether you’d be kind enough to tell us a little bit about that experience.
CC: Yes. Yes, I can. Right. Well, I didn’t take part in the first two attempts. They went in the September and I think it was the October. August and October one of which they went to Russia and flew from there. And then when the final attack came they brought the, the Tirpitz down to Tromso, Tromso Fjord and that made it within striking distance of Lossiemouth providing we carried extra fuel tanks and so the aircraft were modified. All had new engines. The front turrets, sorry the mid-upper turrets were taken off and we didn’t, we only carried a crew of six and two additional fuel tanks were placed in the fuselage. And that, and that was it. It was going to be a long trip, you know. The one in which we sank was it was that we went on the 11th of November up to Lossiemouth from, from Woodhall Spa and the following day we flew from Lossiemouth up to Tromso and, and back which was a trip that took just over thirteen hours. So, you know it had to be carefully planned and that. The only problem I can remember we had was it was a very very clear night. There was a big area of high pressure and the temperature dropped to minus goodness knows what on the night that we were going to take off. So what they had to do was we had to run the aircraft up to the point of take-off and then they sprayed it for de-icing and then we’d take off and that. And several of the aircraft of 9 squadron didn’t go because they’d run out of de-icing fluid [laughs] But anyway, that’s another story. The trick was that we flew at low level up the Norwegian coast and the reason for that was to avoid the radar that the Germans had all along the coast except in one particular spot about halfway up which was known. And we went through that area, over Sweden and then climbed to twelve, thirteen thousand feet over the target. Apart from that, you know it was a clear run in and we dropped our bomb which was said according to records to have dropped near the forward bow and was considered to have helped in the fact that it overturned. Well, in that context it, I can say because has also been recorded that our rear gunner when we were leaving the target the smoke and that cleared a bit from the aircraft itself and he came on to the intercom and said, ‘Skip, she’s turning over.’ So it was the first indication we had you know of, of the ship turning over from that point of view and then we just flew back. We weren’t hit at all, our aircraft and we just flew back to England. We had a, you now we had a diversion. The weather wasn’t too good at Lossiemouth and we had a diversion to an airfield called Fraserburgh at which we landed and that was that.
JM: I have a recollection of on a previous conversation with you, you told me that the bomb was held in place by some large straps and I believe it may have been part of your duties to to recover those straps.
CC: Oh yes. Yes.
JM: Could you tell us a little bit about that please?
CC: Yeah. There is. There are, for the Tallboys there are some straps which were fixed around the bomb itself in the bomb bay which when the bomb was released the straps came apart and dropped to such an extent that they failed the bomb doors when [pause] when they were being shut. So it was the wireless operators job to go back sort of over the main spar and get hold of the toggle which, which was straight and pull the straps up while the pilot shut the bomb doors and that. But yes, that was, apparently that was a problem. An initial problem that they had and talking to an historian of 9 Squadron he said that yes Barnes Wallis actually came down to 9 Squadron to sort the problem out. And he devised this system of a toggle on these straps to pull them up so —
JM: That’s very interesting but have I got this correct? This would have meant that you were actually looking down through the open —
CC: Oh yes. You could. Well, you could see through a hole.
JM: Right. At this most powerful battleship which was shooting up at you.
CC: Well yes [laughs] that’s true.
JM: How did you feel at that moment when, when you were doing that? Was it just a job to be done or were you —?
CC: Well, I think it was just a job to be done really you know. Sort of [pause] yes. It’s like everything else. Afterwards it all sort of blows up into an historical event if you know what I mean but at the time you just sort of, that’s what you’re doing, you know.
JM: And, and was it the same feelings that you had when you knew you’d been ordered to attack the Tirpitz again because as you say it was the third operation. Was it the same, another job or were you in any way concerned that it was going to be a particularly difficult job?
CC: We, no we, we weren’t but I gather that the pilots were told that there was a danger with it being at Tromso. There was a, there was a fighter airfield at Bardufoss which is just down the road from there and there was a possibility that we might get fighter intervention wouldn’t we. But the rest of the crews weren’t told. Weren’t told about it you know. So we just [pause] because that ties up with I remember our skipper saying we dropped the bomb and photos taken and, you know all the stuff that goes with it and that, he says, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Let’s, let’s the hell get out of here.’ You know [laughs] so that was obviously why. You learn these things afterwards as I say. Yeah.
JM: Because really, I mean if the fighters had intervened then the squadrons involved could have taken heavy losses and obviously the authorities were prepared to take the risk.
CC: Oh absolutely. Yes. Yes. It would have done but yeah what, I mean one of the dangers of course with that, was well I wouldn’t say not so much them actually shooting a normal Lancaster down. In fact, we had two fuel tanks, well the tanks were empty but they were still full of fuel gas you know and would have, would have naturally made it much more difficult if they’d been hit by bullets or anything like that I suppose.
JM: Well, this has been fascinating. I I would like to ask you just a little bit more about —
CC: Sure.
JM: Life on the squadron. You were on 617 Squadron and down the road at Woodhall Spa. Could you tell us a little bit about what the daily atmosphere was like as you were going about your training? Your preparations and so forth.
CC: In actual fact quite relaxed. Of course, all the officers were at the Petwood and you know which is the main story these days about 617 being at Woodhall Spa. But in actual fact of course we were on the other side of the aerodrome at Tattershall Thorpe and I don’t think you know where Thorpe camp is now.
JM: Well, we are actually volunteers at Thorpe camp.
CC: Oh well there you are.
JM: I should have said.
CC: Well, we were there of course. Yeah. You know. Sort of, yes we were in the woods [laughs] in, well in Nissen huts actually you know sort of converted into quarters. Day to day we just went down to the fly. We did a lot of sort of training and bombing runs at Wainfleet that’s now no longer there. No longer with us, you know. But spent a lot of time over Wainfleet and it was a lot of analysis of how close and that the practice bombs were dropped and and that sort of thing and one or two odds and ends that we got on. One thing we didn’t know very much about that we, I think it was in the November. Probably the November time. They were looking at dropping commandos in dinghies over Norway and the idea was to drop them on these dinghies with parachutes. Now, that’s all we knew and we did one or two trips, you know. Sort of nothing happened about it but and that was all we knew about it. It never took, it never took place you know. So —
JM: That would have been extremely difficult and hazardous an operation.
CC: Oh God. They could have [unclear] How they were going to do it I don’t know. There is, I think there is a bit of detail about you know. And the only other thing we had a few days down, our crew had a few days down at Boscombe Down where they were testing smoke. You know how the Red Arrows issue smoke out? They were looking for that sort of thing for the sort of bombing master to —
JM: Right.
CC: And it was a lot of boffins down there trying smoke flares and smoke. Mixing smoke with the exhausts and and all that sort of thing and we went down there to fly a Lanc. An old Lanc you know to —
JM: Who was your captain on those? On your time on 617?
CC: Sorry?
JM: Who was the captain? The pilot.
CC: Oh Leavitt. John Leavitt.
JM: Right.
CC: Yes. Yes.
JM: And did you take part in any of the operations that used the Grand Slam?
CC: No, because they didn’t, well not with a Grand Slam on but flying probably a ordinary Lanc because they didn’t carry a wireless operator or wireless equipment because of the, but there was you know a sort of shadow aircraft.
JM: Right. I’ve heard about that.
CC: Yeah. So that was the only way that I sort of went. Yes. But not actually drop, not actually to drop one. No.
JM: I believe the officer commanding 617 at that time would have been Wing Commander Tait would it not? Could you say a little bit about what he was like? He seems to have been quite a highly respected but somewhat distant figure. Would that be fair comment?
CC: He tended, well yes of course as NCOs you don’t come up against them. Against him you know. You normally only come and get your own signals leader for normal, you know. I mean you do see him but [pause] Yes. I met him quite, quite a bit at events after the war you know. Sort of. And I think he tended to be a bit reserved. Not shy. Yes, reserved probably, you know. He didn’t converse a great deal although you know I mean as far as commanding the flights on raids he seemed fine, you know, sort of thing. But he left us in the December ’44. But yeah. So —
JM: Now you started the conversation by, well once or twice referring to the famous film of the Dambusters.
CC: Oh yes. Yeah.
JM: I would like to just to ask you two final questions if I may relating to that. One of them was whether you have any memories of how you felt and how others felt who had served on the squadron at the time that the film was made? And secondly, there has recently been a follow up programme.
CC: Yes.
JM: Have you seen that?
CC: Oh, I’ve seen that. Yes.
JM: Whether you have any comments on that.
CC: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Of course, they, yes and in the follow up programme they said of course there was a lot of mistakes and that. Well, there would be you know. Much of the stuff was top secret still early in 1950s you know. And that’s why they when you look at the original film the, the sort of mines they dropped were round and not cylindrical you know. Sort of things like that and bits and pieces that film makers sort of do. Nothing, I don’t think there was anything to get all het up about if you know what I mean. Probably some would say, ‘Oh, Tait didn’t do that.’ Or Nigger didn’t do something or other [laughs] which was the name of course now that they’re having to try to avoid.
JM: Yes.
CC: But I did actually because they put the film on late didn’t they?
JM: Yes.
CC: Well, I wasn’t going to watch it you know and I thought yes I will and watch and see if they took any bits out but they didn’t you know. They left all the, but I think at one time it was tended to cut little bits out you know. Where reference to the COs dog was made but it, they didn’t, they left everything in. I mean it was just a dog you know. There was no disrespect for anything else. Never even been thought about it you know. It was just how it was in those days, you know. But there we are. That’s [pause] but yes I watched the remake of it. Yes. It wasn’t bad actually. I thought it was, you know sort of [pause] There we are. I don’t know what the new film is going be be like if it ever comes out.
JM: Colin, thank you very much. Your memory is pin sharp going back all those years and it’s been a privilege to listen to you so thank you so much for your interview.
CC: That’s alright. What did you ask me about the other aircraft?
JM: Yes. The other, the Lancaster.
CC: I can nip in to the other room.
JM: Yes that.
CC: And just get it if you like.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Colin Cole
1016-Cole, Colin
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v24
Creator
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Julian Maslin
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944-08
1944-11-12
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Norway
Atlantic Ocean
England--Lincolnshire
Norway--Tromsø
Scotland--Moray
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:32:24 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Cole took part in the attack that sunk the Tirpitz. He describes how the aircraft was adapted for the operation and flew via Lossiemouth. Colin disposed of the Upkeep 'bouncing bombs' as part of his service with the RAF. They were dropped on the Atlantic Shelf and then the adapted Lancasters were scrapped. He trained for Tiger Force.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bouncing bomb
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Guzzle
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Scampton
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tiger force
Tirpitz
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2191/46454/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v220002.mp3
20688448837d2c55a1a2302fabf8a0d9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reid, Kathleen
Reid, K
Reid, Kathryn
Reid, Katy
Description
An account of the resource
92 items and a <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2219">sub-collection with thirty-seven poems/songs</a>. The collection concerns Kathryn (Katy) Reid (Royal Air Force) and contains memoirs, correspondence, poems and photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Stuart Miers Reid and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
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2018-01-23
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Reid, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: Today is the 30th of September 2012 and I’m here talking with Katherine Reid about her time serving at RAF Waltham. So, Katherine please could you tell me a little bit about when you joined up?
KR: When I, when I did. How I came to sign up you mean? Well, I, I was an occupied person at work. I needn’t have joined up but I, I decided that I, I wanted to try and get into the RAF. I was very small and I didn’t know whether they would accept me but they did. I, I was very healthy they said so that was the main point and then of course I did the pre-training and I was sent to RAF Grimsby. That was my first station. I wasn’t very really very far from home so that was nice. I was able to go on my days off back to see my mother and father so, but the atmosphere [pause] I was at three or four other camps during the war. I think I had five places really to go that I was sent to but the lingering memory is of Grimsby. It was such a, you could call it almost a happy station. It is quite the opposite of what, of course it was running for and that was a dreadful number of deaths. But the atmosphere was always quite as cheerful as it could possibly humanly be and the lady, the woman officer we had for the WAAFs was exceptionally kind. And when we’d had an awful lot of tragedies I remember one Christmas she organized a children’s party for children in the village and we were invited to go and help there. And that, that was a very nice thought. She was particularly kind. I’m so sorry I can’t remember her name. But also the other officers were very good too. Now, I had, I was a volunteer but I had not got any particular qualifications for whatever. I decided what I wanted to be was in flying control and at first I had to do what all the volunteers, all the girls who were called up had to do and that was you had to do all the cleaning and you had to even use a duster on the ceilings you know, everywhere. And all the unpleasant things that you had to do and I think it was a sort of an early training to see if you were capable of doing that. Maybe they thought you were capable of doing further things. However, it was a rough time and we had a, if I could, I won’t name her but we did have a Scottish officer and when I and the girl who I’d met when we’d found we had things in common, she’d just been told that too. And we went in front of her and she said, ‘Oh, how good of the Air Force to send two volunteers to clean my station.’ [laughs] And that rather calmed us down you see and so we had to clean the station. We had to do the dusting up high on the, all the wires that were in the different rooms and everything and our life was rather sordid but we did adapt for a few months. And then she was lucky and she was given the, because she was a very good shorthand typist in civilian life she was given this job of of working with the head man who was, he arranged the bombing runs and what to do there and she stayed there all during the war and got a very high [pause] what do we call it? Well, something to signify her good work and so that was rather nice after starting right at the bottom as we did. Well, I was lucky and after a few months when I was there being, I was looking after the WAAF officers I used to sometimes do that but I could never get the fire going for them coming back into their room you know. That was a great worry to me because I could never get that thing going and I didn’t particularly like it there, the work although the officers were very nice. The lady officers. However, then I had to, so I was, one of the WAAF corporals in charge of the telephone, she said to me, ‘I will get you trained and you can go into the telephone office,’ you see. So I took the training and passed and so I went in. We had a very big, in Grimsby a very large telephone department and one night one of the officers came in. I was there alone. At night you did night duty sometimes by yourselves and I said, ‘But I didn’t join up just to be a telephonist. I want to be where the action is.’ And so he laughed but two days later I was, I worked from in the morning and a girl was shaking me and saying, ‘Come on. Come on. You’ve got to get a bus.’ And I said, ‘Why?’ And she said, 'Well, the squadron leader has said you are to go for a week to Waltham.’ Waltham Grimsby, and so I quickly got myself ready and got the bus and off I went to Grimsby and I saw those planes and I thought oh my gosh, isn’t that wonderful. However, then I spoke to the officer there and he was a very kind man and I said, ‘Well, you see I joined up to be where the planes are.’ I wanted to do something that was directly, you know, ‘Something directly with the actual actions of the war.’ And he, so he said, ‘Well, I can’t get you to Cranwell yet but I’ll send you upstairs to flying control and you can learn to do the work.’ So I was very fortunate and we had two girls doing the radio and so I joined them and after a few weeks I was able to take my own, you know my own time and duty with them. There was always two girls. One to do their notes, did everything that was said over the air from the airmen and everything that was said to us in the flying control had to be, you know written down so that it could at times any reason for going back on what had happened on, you know if there was a tragedy or something like that they knew what had been said to a certain extent. It was not shorthand but it was a sort of a very rough kind of English just so you could make out because of course people were talking quickly. You didn’t have time to go slowly and it was in English or whatever. I used to turn it and so that’s what happened and they, we had to bring them down at night and we stacked them. We stacked them at so many feet between we had a big wheel in front of us and we had some iron A B Cs at the beginning of their names you see and we put them on the hooks so we knew exactly when we had them in the air when they came back. And one was given the first course, lined up, and prepare to land and then the next one was brought in, ‘Prepare to land,’ when we told him, you know that he could come down. So we were very busy for over an hour concentrating on this. You never sort of thought of anything else. You concentrated on which aircraft. It was their number and their name. A for Abel and so on you see. I made that clear and you put the hook, you put their number, their ring on the hook. Looking at it we knew exactly where we had them stacked. And then afterwards you’d turn and look at the, at the end where you, we would go on for over an hour and you would look at the wall where the airman of the watch had put the names of the poor men who hadn’t returned. And we then, one of us would stay on duty all night and we’d get the airman of the watch. He used to sleep on the corner by one of the, well we had plenty of machines there. You know, big machines in big iron cases and he used to sleep there in the corner and, but we were alone there listening out for anyone who managed to come back or anybody else who wanted help and the officer of the watch used to be asleep in a room just next door to us so that if it was technical or something like that because I think that was one of the weaknesses at Cranwell when I got there. We were not given enough information on on the way that they needed help. Especially the young fliers who were training and when they first were on their own some of them were very very nervous and you had to get an officer to give them, you know any help that they might need with their engine if you follow me, on a plane there on saying that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KR: And you, you know you felt well we should have been given some instruction because you could tell how nervous some of these young men were on their first flight by solo flying and we used to grieve for them about that. However, then [pause] oh yeah so we, so one of us stayed all night listening out. I hope I put that clearly enough and then we would have the day off. Part of it would be sleep and we’d be ready then to go back on duty the next night. But always two girls and, but about, during the day there were quite a lot of officers sitting around the table and they were there if we needed technical instruction, you know to give out to anyone. It was very very sad sometimes. We had a lot of losses. A lot of men not returning. But the atmosphere on that station to say that was absolutely wonderful and everybody was so nice to each other you know and so kind. I never heard an officer getting cross or anything like that or any, any trouble and the girls that were in the Nissen huts, that was always a happy time. We just had the old cook stove and the, the [pause] we had an officer in the photographic department and he used to go around the shops and sort of talk nicely to the shop keepers and he used to get things given you see in the way of food and then he used to bring some to our hut because one of his girlfriend’s was in our hut. And one night he got some mushrooms and we used to put it in the big, a long big pan that we had, iron one and put that iron one into the one stove we had in the, in the hut. And then we used to all sit around you see after one girl had cooked whatever he’d given us. And one night he’d got mushrooms and we were looking forward to eating these lovely mushrooms and then one of the girls called out, ‘Oh,’ You know. There was something there in the mushrooms that was the grubs [laughs] so we couldn’t eat them. It was rather disappointing but on the whole we were lucky and thanks to this man we always had something to eat in the evenings. Then so, but I I continued in flying control quite a year or so and then my, the posting came through to go to Cranwell. Now, I we had dances of course. Dances for, for aircrew. They, they always had glamourous girlfriends in beautiful dresses you know, and they had the room where they used to go to the dancing but we also had our dances and a little place we made up and for entertainment. So that was quite nice but we also had a few boys who could play instruments and so we had dances and you know they would come in groups of people and that was rather nice. And a few lectures. There was always something happening anyway, and we used to dance as well and because most of the girls in those days were not expert dancers and so, of course they didn’t know, the airmen who were dancing with because usually they’d had a little drink you know before they’d come to the dance. So it didn’t matter that we couldn’t dance either. They didn’t realise that [laughs] So that was nice. Happy parties we had. And then we used to go to the cinema down in Grimsby. So, so it was plenty of entertainment. Then from, well Grimsby well the worst night [pause] the worst night was the night we had the fog. They, now people in looking after the weather they didn’t seem to have an awful lot of equipment and going now you know to not in, it was a long way from the end of the war. We were about middle of the time of the war and they didn’t have, they did have equipment don’t get me wrong but they didn’t have a lot and they used to come up to flying control every day with balloons and put them up and something they could contact from the effect of this. They helped, would help them with their other instruments to say about the weather if I’ve explained that properly. Anyway, they had forecast that there would be fog stretching across a lot of the north of England but it would be clear. The air would be clear by the time that the men had returned from the bombing the capital of Germany. But as I say it wasn’t quite the modern equipment that they had and they were wrong. And so that was the most awful night because when our men came back there were so many crashes and so many deaths. We had ninety men killed coming back. Not from events being over the capital of Germany and come back alright but trying to land at Grimsby was almost impossible the fog was so very dense. And we, you see when they tried to come back in the darkness as I understand the way it was explained to me they were a wonderful plane but when even if their wings were to touch something else like another plane wing or or even a tree or something like that then that Lancaster would just drop and this is what was happening you see. Coming back more or less at the same time and we lost the ninety men and the doctor in charge was very upset that there was all of these men and he couldn’t save one. So you can imagine the atmosphere on the station and it was just a few days before Christmas. The WAAF officer arranged a children’s party for the children of the village and we were asked, the WAAFs were asked to help to organise it so that helped. And it, we made it quite as happy, and aircrew was taking part, the ones that were left to make it a happy Christmas for these village children. But that was typical of the station and of course we had the usual Christmas celebrations even though the atmosphere of the station had been so sad losing so many men and a Christmas dinner like all other Air Force stations had with the same amount of food. So that was quite good. But then I got my posting after I’d waited about a year and a half to go to Cranwell. And my boyfriend who, we used to go to the cinema. He was a Yorkshire boy, about, he was twenty one and he, we used to go to the cinema down in Grimsby and often we would walk back because, often and at other camps there was a bus and, but when you the first time I was on the bus coming back with all the aircrews who had been having a good evening out you know you oh you were quite shocked at the songs [laughs] and things like that. They were so happy but then you got used to it all and they were particularly very kind and considerate with me. It was amazing because I was the smallest WAAF on the station and they called me half pint [laughs] always addressed me as half pint. And so it was always a happy bus coming back from the cinema or any dancing that they’d been to down in the town. But so that was good and I think this was always every night a bus brought them back if you’d been down in to Grimsby to have a nice evening out. But we did have lovely dances. The officers had their separate one and as I say they, they, the women from around who were invited were always dressed very glamourous. We used to try to look as best as we could in our [laughs] in our uniforms but, and as I say most of us couldn’t dance in those days but nobody cared because you know you were just happy and you had little drinks some of us that did enjoy a little drink on special occasions. And then it was always sad when the night was over because you know you just thought well have had a celebration and what would tomorrow bring really. But you didn’t try to think about that.
Interviewer: Could you —
KR: We had a happy social life and then so, but and when I went to Cranwell just then about this time that I’m talking about the, my friend who was this Yorkshireman he, he ferried my kit bag up to when I’d go up the hill to the bus and we’d be off to Cranwell and we were on to each other then until in that terrible fog their plane as I say was lost. So that was very sad. But I did write to his people in Yorkshire and got a nice letter back and he was buried in the grave of his uncle there in Yorkshire. But he was only twenty one and it made you realise what a, what a waste of life war is. War is a waste. A precious waste. Then, but that’s almost the end of my time at Grimsby dear. I passed exams at Cranwell. They were Scottish instructors and I’d been teaching in Scotland when I was, before the war and of course I used to think why they don’t open their mouths more. It must be the cold weather in Scotland you know [laughs] But, and the same thing with these two men. They were very clever instructors but they didn’t open their mouths so you had to concentrate like mad and of course there was no heat at Cranwell. No heat at all. We had chill blains on our hands and feet and what we used to wear our greatcoats and our mittens even because no room was warmed up at all and, and then you had to concentrate like mad. Like mad on their Scottish accents. And they were excellent instructors but it was a very cold time. Believe me it really was. And we had the, we had, we were tested of course. There was written tests and twice, twice we had written tests and we had tests on the actual working of the machinery that we had to deal with. And it was a happy time but a very very cold time. Everybody was sitting in their warmest coats and put several socks on our feet, you know to keep warm and I remember that for the coldness and the food wasn’t very good there. We used to depend on the Salvation Army coming around and the other vans if we ever wanted. So after I’d passed all my exams I was hoping to get back to Grimsby but instead I was sent south. I was sent, that’s right, being with bombers I was sent down to Norfolk with the fighters. I don’t know whether you want to know about them or not because the difference was, the difference was how clever it was for whoever did it in the Ministry of the Air Force to select the man for a job. The fighters that were young men who were, you know get up and go and a bit more happy go lucky and the bombers were serious and were still happy some of them. Amazing how they could be happy in the job they had. But it was amazing how they were like family men and a lot were unfortunately and had children and that would make you even more sad when they didn’t return or were injured which so often happened. But it was very interesting how they somehow seemed to select in nine cases out of ten the right kind of man for the job. And that was more of course happy go lucky type of a station down there in Norfolk.
Interviewer: And how was it working with the Americans in Norfolk?
KR: Oh, the Americans. Oh, I was on an American station. That was after Grimsby. And they were separate even though we worked with them in this big station and that was actually in Norfolk. Not very far from Grimsby. Not Norfolk. Grimsby. And they worked separately even they had their own flying control. They used to bring down their bombers by having a plane up in the air and directing them from the air. And of course, their flights were mostly in the mornings. Daylight. They bombed by day and it was rather a sight to see them going off in the mornings you know. So many planes. Hundreds of them it seemed and they were brought down by somebody in an aircraft in the sky.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KR: Which was strange to us. And we always wondered why they had very good sentries at night on every plane that was left in the airfield. They had their separate, separate part of the airfield but like cut in half and they had their own machinery and everything. We didn’t have anything to do with them. But except if things went wrong a bit and they were worried about certain, the communication system and on the day of the, when war, the last day of the war, the last days of the war I should say their, their signals weren’t working so of course I remember this man coming around to me and getting very upset about this because it was very important. But they directed them coming, their planes from one plane up in the sky directing the landings from there. Well, of course we were still down in our office in the airfields and bringing our men down like that. But it was very interesting in that it was so, we were so separate but yet, and we didn’t ever have any functions you know for our spare time. But of course we, and we didn’t ever have their good food. They had wonderful food in but we did not have good food there and towards the end of the war it was very bad indeed. You could tell that our country was short of the necessary foods and so one of the girls whose father was a doctor said that we must put plenty of jam on our bread. You know, to get a bit of nutrition. So we did just as we were instructed and we were only too pleased to because we got so fed up of just having well yes, plain foods but it was plain too that our country was short of foods. We did have [pause] we didn’t have any of their ice cream and their luxury food. They had their, they were billeted away from the lake. We had the lake with the airmen stationed at one side of the lake and we were stationed far enough away on the other side of the lake but, and we had one dance with the, with the Americans and we didn’t even get any ice cream [laughs] which was very disappointing to us. But they on the whole it was you know you used to socialise with them but they were treated like children almost if I can put it that way. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but everything had to be reported and if, you never knew when if you made a date with them whether they would come because something else had gone wrong on the station. But on the whole the atmosphere was quite good and their uniforms were made of very I remember much better material than our boys you know [unclear] to keep them warm in the winter. But it was a wonderful sight to see them all going off in their planes. Their white planes every morning. And you’d often wish that you would have been able to be helpful in directing them because they were so busy. But so, but you could tell that at the end of the war food was not easy for us. I was with the fighters there and one night, oh it was a new station. I must remember to tell you that. We got the last station for fighters at the end of the war down there in Norfolk.
Interviewer: What was the name of the station?
KR: Pardon?
Interviewer: So what was the name of the station at Norfolk?
KR: Oh dear [pause]
Interviewer: It doesn’t matter if you can’t remember.
KR: I don’t know but it was the last one. Actually, I’m afraid I’ll have to leave you to find it.
Interviewer: That’s fine. Don’t worry.
KR: But you know, it was on this one and we had a very important man who was, who was taking it over and again I’m sorry I don’t have a remembrance of his name. But they were all fighters because we needed the fighters to escort the bombers to the last efforts of bombing Germany, capable of bombing every night and we, so but he was a very eminent man. Now, I was a highly, I was a highly trained RT operator and so I was going to get my, I was going to be made on the higher grade but instead I was posted to this new station. Me and one other girl and I must just tell you just quickly about this because they were all learners more or less and so one night they were doing circuits and bumps. That means going and flying off and just doing a few circular loops and then coming down again. There were sixteen new planes and they were all lined, lined up in front of me and I had to do the speaking and I had this girl with me. She was doing the racking and this very eminent doctor man I’m sorry I can’t give you the name, I’ve forgotten it. I didn’t write it down and you do forget over the years but, and he said to me, ‘Well, I think I’d rather do the speaking.’ And I took at that and I confess and answered the officer and I said, ‘But sir, I was trained at Cranwell. I’ve done three or four years of this work and I’m quite capable.’ So he just sat down beside me just in case [laughs] But he never said another word and I brought those sixty men in at night time, you know. Each one had to get up and then check them around and then come down and I brought them all down safely and I was very pleased with myself [laughs] But that was the first time I’d ever really taken a deep breath and thought oh gosh what does he think we’re here for. So that was, and that was then I got a scholarship so my life changed altogether because I had got a scholarship to a place in London for training for the theatre. And although I wish that I’d stayed another year or so to see how this new station got on but there we are.
Interviewer: Is there a, sorry —
KR: The only, the only, there was one tragedy when I was on duty. I don’t know. I think I should tell you about it. This was in Norfolk. Now, the bombers were disciplined but the fighters were not, I don’t know why and they used to chatter to one another when they were up in the air. And so when you were trying to get a message to them it was very difficult because of all the chattering and they were up for circuits and bumps. That meant that they were up and down you see exercising and there was twenty seven of them up that day and it was daylight. The weather good but they were busy chatting and then the call came through to me to say that there was something wrong with their engine and they wanted to come around the opposite way to land to what the whole twenty seven of them would do, you see. Instead of coming down in good order they wanted [pause] so I, because you couldn’t say anything like that with twenty seven men up. You couldn’t. You had to call to the officer sitting at a desk, sometimes not near enough to you as they should have been to ask permission. So, I had to get through all the tangle of their gossip because they were not disciplined as I say like the bombers to be quiet and only speak when it was necessary. They just chatted away. Be happy go lucky as it were. And so I had to get the message first to get permission from him for this plane to come and land the opposite way to what we were landing. I put it clear and unfortunately, they, they didn’t get my message because they couldn’t get, I couldn’t get through all the chatter that was on. Had that been bombers it would have got through and so they crashed and they were, I had to put down there were twenty six planes. I watched men die in a burning plane. When I got up I couldn’t ride my bicycle and anything, any food for a long time. It didn’t taste right. I was terribly terribly upset about it but they gave me pills and things like that and but I just felt oh dear. I can’t tell you how I felt because I, you know I just thought I tried to get back to them. I did get back to them but they didn’t get the message because of all the other pilots chattering. Not on what they were doing but joking to one another, you see. But that was the type of fighter. I suppose that was the type of fighter you really wanted. Somebody who was lighter hearted. But I couldn’t ride my bicycle when I got off duty and I couldn’t eat and everything so I asked, I asked for a posting. Nobody, I was, there was no criticism. I had done what I could so everybody was nice to me and after you know I was given a lot of vitamins and thing like that. But I thought no I would get away. So I asked for a posting and I finished the war on a station where we were dealing with, that was in Yorkshire and it was when they were fighters. So I was still with fighters. They were negotiating with them from the ground to find the enemy which was interesting. Very interesting. And so I finished the war there where you did twenty four hours and used to sleep there at night on the floor. Our only, well it was the rats. They, your sleeping bag got chewed sometimes where your feet were. The right place. But we used to do night duty sending the, we had the appliance to find where our aircraft was in the sky you see. To direct them to the bomber and where they were as well. And so I did more where the fighters again were after the enemy and it was interesting and the station [near a farm] But you were just, you did twenty four hour duties there but you did miss the station. They were just in this village twelve of us WAAFs stationed on farms. So the food was good but you missed that comradeship of the, of the other girls and the rest of the people. So I had a very interesting war.
Interviewer: I believe there is a poem that you want to share with us.
KR: Pardon?
Interviewer: Is there a poem that you’d like to share with us just before we end?
KR: Finish our —
Interviewer: So, did you want to read a poem?
KR: Oh well. I’d love to. I don’t really need to, I know it but perhaps I’d better so you can edit it. I’d better, I wrote it on the back of my book here. Have I said enough? Have I said enough?
Interviewer: No, you’re been more than welcome to read your poem if you like.
KR: Pardon?
Interviewer: You’ve been very very helpful. Absolutely.
KR: Are you sure?
Interviewer: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
KR: Is it still on?
[recording paused]
“Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-laden wings;
Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the lofty silence. Hov’ring there,
I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air….
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue
I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark nor even eagle flew —
And, while with silent lifting mind I’ve trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.”
“At Cranwell in winter was a bind.
A colder place than Cranwell is very hard to find.
Why should I stand and shiver?
It’s time I used my head.
Instead of turning to a block of us,
Next Sunday I’ll stay in my bed.
My good idea turned to ashes,
Snug in bed on Sunday to find,
Two hundred WAAFs at Cranwell
Were all in this state of mind.
Two hundred WAAFs at Cranwell.
What a wonderful sight to be seen.
After two weeks of spitting and polishing
Cranwell had never been so clean.”
That’s because we had to wait outside the week before going into Sunday Service. We had to. The WAAFs had to be the last to go in of course because we were the least important. That was understandable but we were very cold. It was in the middle of winter and there was ice around us and everything but we hadn’t said we’d do this. We hadn’t said we’re not going to the service but we all must have had the same thought. So because we didn’t go to the service we were put on jankers for a fortnight.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Kathleen (Katy) Reid
1013,1014,1015-Reid, Kathleen M
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v22
Date
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2012-09-30
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
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Sound
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00:52:08 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
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Dawn Oakley
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Kathleen Reid worked in reserved occupation but wanted to join the RAF as a WAAF. She was initially trained as a telephonist but remustered to flight control. Duty meant staying all night in the tower to guide flights home. Then they would be left with the grim sight of the board detailing the flights that had not returned. Her boyfriend was killed while trying to land in thick fog. After being based at RAF Grimsby she went for further training at Cranwell and was posted to a fighter station in Norfolk. Fighter discipline was different than what she was used to with bombers and on one occasion there was a tragedy when she could not communicate with a pilot in trouble because of the on-air chatter and the plane crashed.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
control tower
ground personnel
RAF Cranwell
RAF Grimsby
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46447/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v180002.mp3
9e1a59f8b5d86e0f3686b1aabcb7d54a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: We’ll start again.
PS: Right.
Interviewer: It’s the 25th of January and I’m here at Westmoor Farm and I’m talking to Peter Scoley who is the sort of founder and landlord of the friends of Metheringham Airfield. Peter, you’ve been in this area for a very long time. Like all your life. Is that right?
PS: More or less. We came to Martin Moor in 1937.
Interviewer: Gosh.
PS: And, but we had to leave of course when the aerodrome was built. That was in 1943. And then Zena and I came back here to live in 1968 so most of my life with a little chunk in the 40s and 50s.
Interviewer: And a bit missing. When you had to leave where did you go to?
PS: We went to another farm at Bracebridge Heath at the north end of Waddington aerodrome a quarter of a mile or so, between a quarter and a half a mile from the end of the northern end of the main runway. And so we were entertained nightly by Lancasters taking off and landing at Waddington.
Interviewer: Right. So, so I mean you wouldn’t have been very old then. About eight years old.
PS: Ahum.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Yeah.
Interviewer: So would you have seen action from Metheringham itself or didn’t you get down as far as here?
PS: No, I never saw Metheringham operations. I only saw it built but not operational. Though on occasion because we had this barn here still operational during the war.
Other: As a farm.
PS: As a farm. Father visited weekly because my uncle really looked after it but my father came here every week and it was on some of those occasions when I was on holiday from school that we saw things like the FIDO operating and the odd aeroplane going in the circuit and so on. But —
Interviewer: Were you allowed to stay up late enough to [laughs] —
PS: [laughs] No.
Interviewer: To see FIDO operating.
PS: The FIDO that I saw operating was actually during the daylight hours. One very foggy day, I can’t remember now whether it was the Christmas holidays or the April holidays. I think it might have been Christmas holidays actually in 1944 it was operating during the day.
Interviewer: Was that a test run or did they actually need it?
PS: I don’t think so. I think it was, I think it was operating because air ambulances were coming in from Europe with American wounded on.
Interviewer: Peter, excuse me.
PS: For Nocton Hospital.
Interviewer: It’s absolutely stone cold. Can you get the girls to come back collect it and warmed up for us.
PS: Righto, duck.
Interviewer: Shall we?
PS: Can you, can you pause?
Interviewer: Yes.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Stopped it so [pause] So they were running FIDO during the day.
PS: Are we on now?
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Oh right. Yes. I can remember. I can remember it very clearly because on that particular day father was bringing a battery to Smalley’s, the motor engineers of Martin for recharging. In those days if you, if you remember the wireless sets we had weren’t plugged in to the electrics because we didn’t have any but there were on big glass batteries filled with acid that was re, that were recharged every week. And we were coming down to Martin to have this battery charged. To get there of course we had to come through Metheringham Aerodrome. Now, the road was closed but because father had this farm here he had a pass to come through so we came up to the main gate and he showed the pass and we were waved through. But he was warned at the sentry post, guardroom that the FIDO was running and there was a guard on the road, to take directions from him. So further up the road we came across this guard with a 303 rifle and a fixed bayonet and in front of us we’d seen a lorry disappearing into the fog past this chap with a bayonet and father stopped and said, ‘Is it safe to go through?’ And so the guard said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘That lorry has just gone through,’ he said, ‘So I think you can.’ So off we went and the roar as we went through was terrific and the flames as I recall were not the same as you see on the films and pictures of FIDO working which tend to show a very low flame.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Very close to the ground. The flames that I remember, don’t forget I was eight, nine years old were much higher than that. They were more like eight to ten feet high and they were blue and with a yellowish tinge.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: And the roar was fantastic and the heat terrific. But anyway —
[recording paused]
PS: Switch on then. So we drove through and went off down to Martin to get the batteries recharged. Mission successful.
Interviewer: Yes. It is interesting what you say because all the pictures or almost all the pictures of FIDO are taken at night so the only bit you see is the yellow part of the of the flame and no one every talks about the noise. They only talk about the flames and the fumes and everything like that.
PS: That is my recollection of it.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Don’t forget as I say I was eight nine years old.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: And that is my memory.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Fickle though it might but with a picture that I have of FIDO is quite different from that shown in the books.
Interviewer: Yes. Well, that’s, that’s quite amazing. So what was going on at Waddington? I presume that you had a much closer view of, of events there.
PS: Not really. I suppose because one was only at home during school holidays though obviously during those weeks you got the aircraft flying overhead every night taking off on operations. And being only half a mile or so from the end of the north, north south runway at Waddington fully loaded Lancasters coming over twenty or thirty at a time and skimming the house by about sixty to a hundred feet the noise was rather shattering and if you were trying to get to sleep a fairly, you were given a fairly impossible job.
Interviewer: Did you ever get used to it?
PS: No. Never really got used to it. But you counted them out and you counted them back. The other thing that I recall from my bedroom window there was an air raid siren two hundred yards away on the AV Roe aircraft factory roof end and every now and again it would go off. And I don’t know whether anybody remembers air raid sirens these days but believe me in those days if it went off the heart raced a bit.
Interviewer: It is frightening.
PS: We, I was ill with measles at the time but in March of 1945 Bomber Command suffered the last intruder raids of the Luftwaffe when various night fighters flew over aerodromes in the UK and shot the place up and on two occasions that happened at Waddington. On one occasion the bomb dump was set on fire and we had shell cases littering through the trees. You could hear them hitting the trees and bullets whistling through the air. That was rather frightening and then they did in fact manage to set the Waddington bomb dump on fire one night. And the —
Interviewer: What were the bombs, were they exploding?
PS: No, they weren’t. No. Fortunately not.
Interviewer: Because they weren’t fused, were they?
PS: No, they hadn’t got that far.
Interviewer: No.
PS: But something was burning there.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: And various people from RAF Waddington came around to all the outlying houses, farms and everyone telling everyone to get out quick because if the bomb dump went off it would level a fair, it would level a fair area of land.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: And so mother explained that we couldn’t because my brother and I were in bed with measles and my father was in bed with flu. ‘Righto,’ said the officer. He said, ‘We’ll lay an ambulance on.’ As it turned out before the ambulance arrived they got the fire under control so it was all cancelled but it was a little bit of a hairy old do for an hour until things got under control.
Interviewer: Yes, I can imagine.
PS: Well, that was the nearest I got to the war.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Because most of the time with being away at school, in the latter half of the war at anyrate, in Yorkshire we very rarely saw any aircraft up there and German aircraft in particular. But further south of course things were rather different.
Interviewer: Yes, I can imagine. Well, I grew up in London but I’m not quite old enough. It’s strange because I have a memory of getting out of bed and lifting the edge of a blackout curtain and looking out and seeing searchlights panning the sky. Now, it couldn’t have been the Blitz because I wasn’t around in the Blitz.
PS: No.
Interviewer: So I’m not quite sure what this memory was.
PS: Well, don’t forget there was a little Blitz in 1944.
Interviewer: Ah, well it could have been something like that. Yes. Yes. I didn’t think much about it. It just looked like all pretty lights in the sky you know.
PS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Obviously, obviously very young. Now, you are now with your connections to the Metheringham Airfield and considered by lots of us as, as a chief archivist.
PS: God. Yeah.
Interviewer: You must have the odd story to tell. Things that were related to you or, or something like that.
PS: Oh God. Now, my mind’s gone a blank.
Interviewer: Of the —
PS: Yeah.
[recording paused]
PS: Yeah. Yeah, well perhaps for a start we could talk about the origins of the, of the Visitor Centre because they were not simple. Zena and I had thought, had been wondering for a long time about a Memorial to the Bomber Command people here during the war but we could never really think of anything that we could do. We didn’t particularly want, just want to put a Memorial slab or stone. We wanted something a bit different but nothing occurred. In any case at that time we were both busy with our own lives. Me in farming and Zena with local government. But it just so happened one day that Zena was at a meeting with North Kesteven District Council officials at a time when — [beeping noise] I think I can —
Interviewer: Ok.
[recording paused]
PS: So anyway, Zena was at this meeting with the North Kesteven District Council at a time when they were having to rethink the financial aspects of local government because agriculture which up ‘til then had been the mainstay of rural life was ceasing because of the end of the Cold War was ceasing to be as important as it had been hitherto. And so the local authorities were having to reassess businesses and tourism and all sorts of other things that were happening in their areas in order to get revenue for the county. One of the things that the Tourism Department at Sleaford was concerned with was the wartime aviation and they were creating what became known as the Airfield Trail which it was hoped would attract tourists into the area to go around and visit all these old aerodromes which by then were becoming of national interest. So during the conversation Zena happened to mention that we had got some old wartime, World War Two buildings on the farm and would they be interested. They said they would. They’d come and have a look which eventually they did and it was decided that one of the buildings in particular would be a good place to have what at that time was going to be known as a Memorial Room. The council would renovate part of it in which the exhibition would be and then the place would be open for people to visit when they were in the area. At that time nothing more was planned. It, coincidentally one of our neighbours on the other side of the airfield had built a Memorial to 106 Squadron which in 1992 was dedicated at a squadron reunion.
Interviewer: Was this the one that is actually on the airfield site?
PS: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: When it was dedicated and we talked to the squadron about our plans they showed interest and asked to be invited to the dedication of the Memorial Room when it was opened. And we said yes. In the meantime, John Pye who had done the other Memorial said would it be appropriate for him to build another Memorial outside the Memorial Room? So we thought it was a good idea and which he did. That was in 1993 and in July of ’93 at the squadron reunion they came here for the dedication of the new Memorial and —
Interviewer: Partial opening.
PS: Yeah [pause] Ok? Yeah. So anyway, the squadron arrived in July of 1993 for the dedication of the second Memorial.
Interviewer: When you say the squadron you mean the Squadron Association?
PS: The Squadron Association.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: Yeah. And had a look at the half-finished Memorial Room and there was a preliminary suggestion that it mightn’t be a bad idea if we were willing for it to be also the Squadron Museum. So anyway, we all went away and thought about that. We had to think about this. They, and they came back again in October of that year when the Memorial Room was finished and opened for a month for local people to come and have a look and we had an official opening with the chairman of the North Kesteven District Council and a little ceremony and we closed again for the winter at the end of the month. During the winter we had a general meeting when the Friends of Metheringham Airfield was set up. The title was, as I recall was suggested by our number one member who has only just died a week or two back. Ron Mitchell. And we’ve been the Friends of Metheringham Airfield ever since and the committee was formed and it went on from there. The following summer in July when the squadron came down for their reunion, or the Association came down for their reunion they of course visited the Centre and we had a little party there. And one of the squadron members had a quiet think and thought it would be a good idea if we renovated the end room. Well, we hadn’t got any money to do that at the time so nothing much happened. But it just so happened that the poor chap died that winter. Then we found out that he had left us two hundred pounds in his will for to help with renovations at the Centre. And so we renovated the end rooms and they’re now called the Carey Powell Room.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: In memory of our benefactor who’d in fact had been a rear gunner here. He was a two tour rear gunner which was a very rare bird indeed.
Interviewer: Yes.
PS: In World War Two.
Interviewer: It certainly was.
PS: And a very nice man and a great supporter. So we were very pleased to, to name the room after him and to keep his name alive. So the, the museum has sort of developed from the there. The next job we did was to clear out the old gymnasium which had become redundant as far as the farm buildings were concerned and so, we cleaned it out and freshened it up. And since then we’ve had all our meetings and things in there. The lectures we started in the Centre in 1994 as it happened. I think Jim Shortland gave the first one and I believe we had about seventy people in there at the time. But gradually as time went on numbers increased and the centre wasn’t big enough and so we moved across to the school room, what is now the school room and a gymnasium until that became too small when we started having the lectures and things in the main room in the gymnasium. And that basically is an outline in how we first started and has carried on to this day with under the guidance of a group of very dedicated volunteers. We are now a charity and which has been helpful with the financial aspects of the friends and we hope that interest will survive because we believe that the memory of Bomber Command people deserves it. There may be controversy over what Bomber Command did during the world war but one can’t get away from the fact that fifty five thousand men, young men, young boys lost their lives serving their country and that is the main thing as far as we’re concerned in preserving the memory of 106 Squadron.
Interviewer: That’s, that’s really the core purpose of the organisation, isn’t it? That it’s totally wrong and mercifully I think the country is now decades too late beginning to realise it totally wrong to blame brave volunteer —
PS: Yes.
Interviewer: Service personnel.
PS: Yes.
Interviewer: For the mistakes, perceived or real of their political masters.
PS: Absolutely. It’s been most unfair and again well we’ll not mention any politics in this but we know the guilty ones.
Interviewer: I’ll not mention any names. Well, Peter, I think we’ve come to the end of the session now and thank you ever so much for talking to us and I’m sure that your name won’t exactly be in lights but your voice might well be coming out of peoples computers. Thank you.
PS: [laughs] Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Scoley
1008-Scoley, E Peter G
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v18
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1992
1993
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:23:19 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary. Allocated C Campbell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jeff Williams
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Description
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Peter Scoley was born on a farm which became RAF Metheringham during the war. After the war Peter and his wife were fundamental in creating a museum on the site.
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Lancaster
memorial
perception of bombing war
RAF Metheringham
RAF Waddington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46444/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v150002.mp3
0da16dbb93a637dcc3de8e409d1af514
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46444/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v150003.mp3
259431274215222c5fd47fd96858361e
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-06-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
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Part 1.
CA: Christopher Allison.
Interviewer: Good afternoon. Would you just like to give us your name and date of birth please.
CA: The 23rd of the 9th ’25.
Interviewer: And your name again.
CA: Christopher Allison.
Interviewer: Thank you very much. And you were in the Royal Air Force during the war. Yeah? That’s correct.
CA: Well, I joined up in ’43.
Interviewer: Ok, thank you. We’re here with the children now from the Primary School.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: And each in turn would like to ask a question of this gentleman.
Student 1: What did it feel like to actually have been, you could think about being killed every day?
CA: Well, you had to live with it otherwise you just, you know you’d just fizzle out. You have to live with it really, you know.
Interviewer: It was a difficult time, wasn’t it?
CA: Well, it was. I mean I lost a mate. He was only nineteen. I thought oh my God. And then I thought well you’ve got to live with it or you know you just fall to pieces especially looking like that.
Interviewer: That’s right [laughs] So you’re, I’ll just ask a question then if you’d like to come in again then so we’ve got some background.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you were posted on to Lancasters then.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: What was your position on the Lancaster?
CA: Flight engineer.
Interviewer: Flight engineer.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Ok. Right.
CA: I know this is a C on here but —
Interviewer: I know what you mean.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Ok. Do you have a question you would like to ask?
Student 2: Yeah. How did it feel not knowing if your loved ones were safe at home while you were fighting in a foreign country?
CA: Well, you have to live with that as well because you see my dad died when I was eight so there was only mum on her own wasn’t she and you had to live with it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. One thing they found out that in the Blitz of course, you know whilst people were fighting over the skies of Germany people were dying back in England from the same bombing.
Other: Yes. That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: My dad died through wars in the long run from World War One wounds.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Which a lot of guys did after the war.
CA: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: They just lingered on. Yeah.
CA: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Ok, would you like to ask a question.
Student 3: How was it like to work on the Lancaster bomber?
CA: Well, it was alright as long as you were safe. It was lovely you know. there was nothing wrong with them at all and especially —
Interviewer: How many missions did you fly then in total?
CA: Well, I wasn’t a gunner but you had front gunner there like and a mid one there and the rear gunner used to catch it really bad. Once they attacked you it would be the rear gunner what got it first. The only advantage he had he could open the back door, swing it around and he baled out. Easy as that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you complete thirty missions then?
CA: Not many. No. No.
Interviewer: No.
CA: Because the lads had done most of the hard work when I got to Kirmington.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: Well, I was, I tell you I met Bomber Harris and Donald Pleasence. You remember him, do you?
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Well, they got shot down in Germany somewhere and the French got them back and when they got back to England they had a caterpillar but it was on the tie.
Interviewer: That’s right.
CA: And he was a smashing guy, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Ok. Have you got a question now?
Student 4: Yep.
CA: Right.
Student 4: When you were in the war did it, was it frightening trying to, in the Lancaster bombers?
CA: What? Frightening?
Student 4: Yeah.
CA: No. No. No. You’d be sad but not frightening. It was sad. Very sad. It gets me now sometimes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: When we go to the Memorial don’t we? Sadness and —
Interviewer: Yeah, that’s one thing I found. I’ve done a lot of these recordings.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: And one thing I find is that a gentleman who like yourself just survivors I’ve talked to some people who were the only survivor of an aircraft. They feel a lot of sadness and its sometimes guilt.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: That they’re the only ones that got through it and, you know it seems to be something that runs through it.
CA: You have to live. You have to live with it and the first bit I saw of a German I did my twelve weeks training at Skegness and he flew down there and he shot the blooming clock tower up. Have you heard about that?
Interviewer: Yes. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Yeah. Well, I was there when they did that.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: And then when we went down south they flew in one morning when my mate was walking down for training and they machine gunned us. So what we did we fell on the floor and rolled out the way. But the sod come again the next day. But they got him. The next day he come they was waiting for him. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. We’ve got two other gentlemen here with us now if I just get a different aspect.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Roughly the same questions really. How did you feel? You know, obviously —
CA: Yeah.
TB: My name is Tony Bradley. I was born in 1930 so I wasn’t actually in the Armed Forces during the war but I lived in Hull and Hull got very badly bombed during the war and to me, I was ten years of age and when I got involved I went in to the Army Cadets and I finished up as an air raid warden’s runner. But the war to me at that time was exciting. Not frightening at that, in the beginning because it didn’t involve me but a little while later on it did get very frightening and when I first saw people being pulled out of houses who were dead or injured which I did see I began to realise what war was all about. My mother had a very lucky escape because we were right in the middle of Hull where we got a terrific pounding. We lost buildings all around us and you just didn’t know from one raid to the next whether you were going to be lucky enough to escape from it because there was a lot of people killed in Hull. I was pleased that I wasn’t in the war a few years later. At the time I just wanted the war to carry on because I wanted to get in it because I had two cousins who were flight engineers. But its later on in life when one goes into the Services oneself, I was in the Royal Navy and I went to Tobruk and had my first interview with death as it comes in wartime was at the Knightsbridge Cemetery and I was with one of my friends looking for his brother. And when I saw all those gravestones that really brought home to me what war was all about and it’s pointless. It carries on. It doesn’t achieve anything except bring a lot of misery to a lot of people.
Interviewer: Thank you very much. Yeah.
PB: And it never leaves you does it when you see those gravestones.
TB: Yeah.
PB: A lot of that, you see I went through that with the, during the war you know we were in air raid shelter.
TB: Oh yes.
PB: Being, you know bombed and everything else. But as I say later on I went in the Royal Marine Commandos and I did what? Nearly a years training when I went in there from square bashing to Naval gunnery to Tarzan courses and all the rest of it, you know. Tent lines on Dartmoor the middle of the night. Crawling under tracer bullets and of course in middle of the winter we were in tents.
CA: Yeah.
PB: And all that type of thing but eventually I was destined to go to, I was in this here drill shed at Stonehouse Barracks in Plymouth after I’d finished my training. I was a hundred percent fit and I got this here call. ‘Marine Bateman, one step forward. To the right. You’re going to Korea.’ Of course, I was [sub] engineer specialist and eventually I thought well that’s it. We were going to out in civilian clothes and be kitted out by the Americans you see and of course I was going to be blowing up bridges and one thing and another and anyhow they got that many volunteers thinking it was the Americans they thought there would be plenty of food, you know. Gum, you know. Chewing gum and all the rest of it. So they got volunteers and I finished up going to Malaya. So I mean that wasn’t much better. And I finished up in the jungle in Malaya for nearly three years and once getting out there I was taken out to some little outpost called Grik and we was in these here thatched roof huts. There was rats infested and just air flow and I had an orange box crate for a bedside cabinet and so on and we used to go out on patrol. And one particular time I always remember I went on a twenty four hour patrol and finished up on the twenty nine day patrol in the same clothes I had stuck, you know that I had on.
Interviewer: Yeah.
PB: And of course we weren’t getting no airdrops because the jungle was too thick and so we were eating tree bark. We had some natives from Borneo who showed us a few things how to do. We was eating tree bark, raw fish and we managed to live on that for twenty nine days. We had to cross the River Perak, a fast flowing river. Two of the Marines got washed down the banks. They got drowned. And we finished up going down elephant tracks and we had to go to this place called [Tomanga?] Some disused tin mines. And I always remember when we got out there we had to identify some bodies which was in some dried up culverts so we could smell them about two miles away. But one of the worst thing that’s ever happened to me when we’d got in some swamps, a sergeant and nine Marine Commandos and we got ambushed. There was somebody played a bugle and we were just getting picked off. There was no ground cover. Getting picked off and these Australian Air Force were strafing the area in these Mosquito bombers. A wooden structure type of plane. Strafing the area and the bandits fled otherwise I wouldn’t have been here now. They didn’t know anything about us and we finished up with three.
Interviewer: Yeah.
PB: Three of us left out of the ten.
Interviewer: So you see what happens back. Not just World War Two. This country has been involved in a lot of conflicts.
PB: A state of emergency and what our idea was to resettle the people instead of them trying to starve the bandits out of the jungle because they was going in to these [campons] and demanding food. So what we had to do is put them into big compounds where they couldn’t help the bandits.
Interviewer: Yeah.
PB: So that was initially, and of course another time I must tell you this I was in an ambush position. We got some information that these bandits was going to come along this track at a certain time of night and just before it got dark we got laid out, oh the sergeant said, ‘No talking,’ and we had little travel ropes to each other so we weren’t allowed to talk. One pull and so on, you know and we was, when I got laid out with my Bren gun I realised I was on an ants nest and of course I could feel them wriggling underneath me. They were supposed to have come along with this longish trap within the hour and it was two and a half hours later they came along and I see these lanterns coming along. And of course, when we got there we ambushed them and we killed nine and carried them back on bamboo poles.
TB: Can I just bring one thing to you is if, if you think on this that since the Second World War there has only been one year when we haven’t had a serviceman killed in some conflict or other.
PB: Yeah.
TB: That’s something to think of.
PB: And every time I see these dead bodies come back I think about my mates. You know lads of about what? Twenty? Twenty one years old, you know. And you think to yourself what’s it all for?
TB: Its not only that it’s when you see dead bodies.
PB: Yeah.
TB: I was out in Suez before the conflict actually started. I was ashore doing some work on the electricity station there and we had a party of Mauritians and a sergeant and a major and they were ambushed and if you’d have seen what the natives, I say the natives, see what the natives did to those bodies you’d never forget it.
PB: No.
CA: No. That’s true.
PB: That’s why I’ve never slept with my wife for twenty five years because I’ve had her in strangleholds and shouting out and she’s not slept with me for twenty five years. Do you want my name by the way?
Interviewer: Please, at the very end. Yeah. That would be good.
PB: Right. I’m John Patrick Bateman. I joined the Marines. I was born in 1928 and I joined the Royal Marines in 1949.
Interviewer: Thanks very much.
PB: And I came out in ’58.
Interviewer: Right. So you got a little synopsis there. Have you got anything? Any thoughts about that then? What you’ve just been hearing.
Student: That’s pretty scary.
PB: Are you going to join the Marines or the Naval or the RAF? Are you going to join?
Student: The RAF.
Student: Going to join the —
Interviewer: You’re going to join the Air Force —
TB: You are.
PB: The RAF.
Student: Yeah, RAF.
PB: Why?
Student: My dad’s in the RAF.
TB: Fair comment but do what you want to do.
PB: Yeah.
TB: Not what other people want you to do.
Student: Yeah, I just I like the RAF. I like planes. It’s —
PB: Well, I was in the Army Cadets. I came out of the Army Cadets and went into the Navy. I came out of the Navy. I went to work Marine Services. I was a marine superintendent of diving and I took up flying and flying became my life. I was addicted to flying. I had my own glider. I taught gliding and I took a private pilot’s licence and I used to think if I had only been old enough [laughs]
Interviewer: Yeah.
TB: But no. So do what you want to do.
PB: Same as me you see. I was in the I was in the Scouts. The Cubs, then the Scouts, then the Sea Cadets and you know, and of course I used to do lots of in fact I used to do fire watching. I was working at a munitions factory during the war and the blokes, the chaps used to say to me, ‘Will you do my turn tonight?’ Three and six a night it was and I used to do the fire watching.
Interviewer: Yeah.
PB: In a little shed.
Interviewer: Well, that gives us an insight. Sorry would you like to say one other thing?
TB: Just it’s just one thing when you’re talking among your peers remember three things. Three letters. PPR. Pride, Respect and Responsibility.
PB: Yeah.
TB: And they’ll take you through life being a good citizen.
Student: PPR.
PB: And they will be. They will be.
Interviewer: Ok. Thank you very much.
CA: Like I was saying about [unclear]
PB: It’s nice of you to listen to us anyway.
CA: We flew down the blooming Humber.
PB: Pleased to meet you. What’s your name?
Part 2.
[Preamble at start]
Interviewer: Right, Chris. So —
CA: Do you want my full name now?
Interviewer: Yes, please. If you could start with your full name.
CA: Christopher, Christopher Francis Allison.
Interviewer: And your date of birth?
CA: The 23rd of the 9th ‘25.
Interviewer: And which forces were, which armed forces were you in?
CA: In the RAF.
Interviewer: Ok.
CA: RAF.
Interviewer: Ok.
CA: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: And you said your service number.
CA: Oh, 3007708 [laughs]
Interviewer: That’s wonderful. So, Chris what we look for is to begin your career in the RAF and can you tell us a little bit about joining? You said you volunteered and that was something your father said you’d never, should never do.
CA: I did. Yeah.
Interviewer: But you did.
CA: I did, yeah.
Interviewer: So what happened? What made you volunteer?
CA: I don’t know. I was always crazy about flying like you know and I was in the Air Cadets for about two years. We used to go to Immingham every week.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: And that’s why I flew from Binbrook to Waltham in a Wellington just to get a little bit of experience like you know.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
CA: And then from there it all happened. I went to Sandy for a week to get my uniform.
Interviewer: Right. Yes.
CA: And from there we went to Skegness and we were there for a good twelve weeks.
Interviewer: Yes.
CA: And you learned how to use all the rifle, a revolver and all that lot you know, and hand grenades and whatever. And I think we was, we stayed there until that Christmas time because the, all the officers they served us with the, a Christmas meal like you know. And then gradually we went down south to now where the devil did we [pause] Portree. And well, I must admit I don’t know how long I was down there for. How long have we got down there? Anyhow, I wanted to come on leave but the officer said you can’t go until we’ve had D-Day and so that was it. But my mate and I were walking to do a little bit of work. You know, information like hydraulics and flying and this German aircraft come in and machine gunned us so [laughs] me and my mate we just dropped on the floor and rolled out of the way like this and I think the RAF Regiment gentleman got a bit of a rollicking because he should have fired at him but I think he did the next time and that was the end of that. We never saw him anymore like. And then we had odd crashes here and there like. There was a, well it wasn’t a Wellington, the next one. A Warwick. It took off and it, it stalled, turned over and crashed into the empty yard where there was a guy doing a job. So that was the end of that story. Then another one, I think it was a, I think, I think they were learning on a Beaufighter and this pilot came in and he slipped across and he knocked a civilian guy over and killed him. And when he got out and see what he'd done he fainted. But the aircraft came along and hit the side of the, the air raid shelter where we were inside. So we were lucky in the air raid shelter and that was the end of that. That’s, that’s all happened there until D-Day and then of course we were free to move when we wanted to like. So then I came on leave of course, you know.
Interviewer: So, that was, that was your training period was it? And that was to be —
CA: Well, yeah. For the, you know hydraulics and everything else connected with the aircraft.
Interviewer: So, and that was to become a flight engineer.
CA: Well, yeah. It was but more or less. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: So after that what happened next?
CA: Well, eventually I got posted to Elsham and there were two squadrons there and I don’t know how the devil I fiddled it but I said, I must have said I lived at Keelby and I fiddled and got to Kirmington on 166 Squadron and that was it. That was lovely and then we were mucking about there like on to, well I think I was on two bombing missions. I don’t know. I can’t remember and then a leaflet raids and you know things like that because the lads had done all the big stuff there like you know. We lost a thousand guys any rate there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah. And, and as I say Bomber Harris come this night and they said, ‘You’ve got to line up with the rest of the guys.’ Well, they were all around you know, the Red Arrows, not the Red Arrows, listen to me. Dambusters and he come along and was giving them medals. And that’s what he said to me. ‘Where are you from airman?’ I said, ‘Just down the road, sir.’ Well, I was because Keelby was only about three miles away and that was that. And then of course I met who have we got down here? Donald Pleasence, you know, the actor and Bomber Harris. And then oh, I forgot to tell you when I was down south Montgomery. Montgomery came when I can speak properly and he gave the guys medals there because they’d knocked a wall down somewhere did Mosquitoes. Can you remember that?
Interviewer: Prison.
CA: Yeah. [unclear]
Interviewer: It was the Dutch prison wasn’t it?
Interviewer 2: The Amiens raid at prison.
CA: Ah, we found out more two or three years ago, didn’t we? There was more to it than that and he looked like Montgomery. I should say it could be wasn’t it? Yeah, and so that was that. Yeah. Well, they flew in low there didn’t they and knocked this wall down these Mosquitoes and that was it.
Interviewer: Yeah. And released the French prisoners.
CA: I forgot about that with looking at this. What else do you want to know then?
Interviewer: So you’re on an operational squadron by then.
CA: Yeah, by then. Yeah.
Interviewer: What was it? What was your job when you —
CA: Well, you were flying —
Interviewer: What was the job in the aircraft?
CA: Well, I suppose if worst comes to the worst if the pilot got hit and killed you would have to take over but you were just more or less function. Make sure everything was working alright, you know. Looking at your meters and God knows what because we had everybody else like. There was seven of us you know. You had bomb aimer and navigator and wireless operator. All that lot like you know.
Interviewer: And you would sit just behind the pilot.
CA: Aside. At the side of the pilot. Yeah.
Interviewer: What was your job say? Can you describe what it’s like taking off or —
CA: Well, as long as you got, as long as you got plenty of revs on and all that you were alright. Of course, you had to come into the head wind to take off. Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: You see at Kirmington you used to take off, start off the other side of the road. They’ve scrubbed all that now haven’t they at Kirmington.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. So I mean what was your did you fuel, making sure the fuel went to the right engines and the right tanks and this sort of thing.
CA: Well, yeah. I mean it was a hundred octane what they flew with like you know. Oh yeah. And never everything, nothing really went wrong. It could have done but it didn’t do.
Interviewer: Well, done. That was a part of what you’d do.
CA: Well yeah, because as I say most of it had gone by the Germans. They’d lost their, lost their sting a little bit by then, hadn’t they? I mean I was only in what two years.
Interviewer: But what was it like then? So if you were flying over Germany any, can you describe what it was like to be in your seat and —
CA: Well, not really. As long as everything happened alright you come back alright. I don’t, you couldn’t live with that otherwise you wouldn’t do it.
Interviewer: No.
CA: No. No. You, we couldn’t be frightened. No. No. No.
Interviewer: Did you, did you —
[unclear asides]
[recording paused]
Interviewer 2: We’ll talk about those now. Yeah.
Interviewer: Ok. So, but you did fly over places that had already been bombed.
CA: Oh yeah. That’s right. Hamburg and what have we got down here? Hamburg [pause] Dresden. We’d go down Heligoland. The dams. Leaflet dropping. Leaflets. Oh yeah. I went over Holland as well and, yeah.
Interviewer 2: Did you drop food to the Dutch?
CA: Pardon?
Interviewer 2: Did you drop any food to the Dutch?
CA: No. No. No.
Interviewer: What about you said you flew over the dams and —
CA: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: And Dresden. What was it like? What did you see?
CA: Well, it looked like as though, it looked like a sea because they’d done these dams to flood the German’s, all the works and all that. And I think it, they succeeded for a while but they were saying the Germans soon built them up again.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Aye.
Interviewer: What about Dresden because that was, that was towards the end of the war.
CA: Yeah. Dresden. Well, no. I don’t know. You see you had to go, I think when you got to ten thousand feet you had to have oxygen like you know but as you got depending on all what you were briefed on. Whatever you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: What would you think was the most difficult moment you had in the air?
CA: Well, I think, I don’t know there was only once we were going back and there was a thunderstorm on. I mean, I know fog could be bad thing like but I don’t think we ever came across fog. I know I was coming back over the Humber and it was a bit rocky like you know because it was thundering and lightning but once you got to Kirmington if you saw if it was daylight enough you could see the spire which was green and you knew you were safe home again like, you know.
Interviewer: So, the thunderstorm. What happened with that because they can be dangerous can’t they?
CA: Well yeah. Just, just made the aircraft do a little bit of that and that’s it.
Interviewer: [unclear]
CA: Well, well they were just normal guys and they seemed to all take it in their stride and well, I don’t know. They lived as though they were going to live forever.
Interviewer: Yeah. What about those that didn’t. You know, that didn’t come back.
CA: No. No. I don’t know. I don’t know. Bless them. It all happened so quick.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Any personal friends of yours that —
CA: Well, there was only that one guy I was telling you about who was nineteen and he, I don’t know. It’s a shame really when I think about it isn’t it? They never saw, well I mean they was all around about nineteen to twenty five I think. Some of the pilots must have been a young person like you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. And he, he went down.
CA: I’d have thought. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as I say quite a few survived but they were saying on the telly the other night that if you baled out there the, the German guys looked after you but the population they would kill you didn’t they? Eh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, they I don’t know if they had to bale out over Germany and France or somewhere or they crash landed there but they all survived and then when somehow they got back to Kirmington and if they come back they got a, put a caterpillar on their tie. Yeah. Yeah. And the other one was a ladybird. I don’t know which was which now. I should. I don’t know. But the French used to get them back somehow. They were pretty good like that.
Interviewer: And did you say Donald Pleasence was —
CA: Oh, he was there at Kirmington and in them days he had a good mass of hair [laughs] But no, he was, he was I didn’t know much about him like only he was famous wasn’t he in the end.
Other: Yeah. Very.
CA: And if, if anybody was very very lucky and did, got about thirty trips they used to go to Kirmington pub and celebrate. Oh, some had designs on that aircraft Jane. There was Jane painted on the pilot’s side and then the Beer one, B for beer it was every time they’d done a mission there was this, this beer dropping into a glass. Then on that side there was all the missions they’d done and glasses of beer. It was lovely. I mean like there was A for Apple, B for Beer, C for Charlie and all that like.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: But there was some of them they couldn’t do paintings on there.
Interviewer: Did you have a painting on your aircraft?
CA: Well, we had [pause] no I don’t think we had because I was sort of fiddling about a little bit on W-William and you see we went right down. Well, I think we had twenty six aircraft and W X Y Z, you see. So, well, one was X-ray of course. No. We hadn’t. No. No. Some of them were hit and miss all the time. The biggest thing of all was I can’t understand it they never mentioned the girls what used to fly the Lancasters to replace all these to Kirmington, Elsham did they?
Interviewer: No.
CA: They’ve never been mentioned.
Interviewer: It was only after the war that they talked about the ATA girls.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Now that these young girls were the same age as the pilots and —
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: They used to fly them on their own.
CA: Well, they must. They must have brought the Lancaster to Kirmington on their own mustn’t they? On their own.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember the number of your Lancaster. Whisky.
CA: No, I don’t. No, because only a number. If it was A you would have to go through the alphabet wouldn’t you? A B C D E F like.
Interviewer: How many missions did you do, Chris?
CA: I reckon about, I reckon about four.
Interviewer: Yes.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
CA: Because there was nothing left really was there? What were you saying?
[recording paused]
CA: I don’t know why we dropped the leaflets. I thought it would tell them to pack in fighting. Yeah.
Interviewer: And this was in Norway. You went over dropping leaflets in Norway.
CA: I should say so. There must have been, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: To stop the, to say don’t fight.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah, because we was, one time the Italians were with the Germans weren’t they? Eh? I don’t know. He must have at the end of the war he died at Kirmington. He must. I don’t know whether he, I don’t know much about the Lancaster but apparently in order to the Americans used to do carpet bombing and for some unknown reason they got underneath in the way and it damaged the aircraft and he must have panicked when he come over Kirmington because he baled out and he got caught on the aircraft.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: And he just fell to the bottom and it killed him and I saw that. I saw him coming down and he just missed an haystack by about a hundred yards. It might have saved his life. I don’t know. But he must have panicked for some unknown reason.
Interviewer: And the aircraft landed.
CA: I don’t know where it went.
Interviewer: No.
CA: It went, it went over the Humber somewhere and nobody seemed to know anything about it. No.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, let’s, were the Lancs difficult to look after in terms of, you know —
CA: Oh no.
Interviewer: Your job as the flight engineer. Were they complex?
CA: Oh no. I think they always say they were the best aircraft to fly. I think they were brilliant. I know there was the Halifax or what we used to call the Halibags but Halifax and the Lancaster and that was the last one they did towards the end wasn’t it because like that other guy, Somerscales he was on [pause] No. Not that guy. He was on, on about a half a dozen different aircraft. No. He, no, George, no. Stan Somerscales, they were flying back to England and they had been on a bombing, a second bombing mission and they got you know shot up badly and they were struggling. He saw this village or town ahead of them and he was struggling to get the aircraft away from it. He told the crew to bale out and the last guy, ‘Pass me my, pass me my parachute.’ Well, he should have had it. He should have been sat on the damned thing. Poor old George, it crashed and I think he died with the nuns looking after him. That’s the guy I was on about. He hurried in front of someone.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: And he got the DFC.
Interviewer: Yeah. You mentioned that you knew Morse and that —
CA: Oh that. Yeah.
Interviewer: And you used to sometimes swap signals and not such —
CA: Well, yeah. You know on very, very rare you’d get some crackpot rear gunner would give you a funny message on there. If you remember. I’ve forgotten Morse now. All I can remember is dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot. SOS.
Interviewer: So the gunners would flash Morse to the following aircraft and —
CA: Well, yeah. I think, oh I know something else. I think every aircraft used to have a pigeon aboard if I remember right. Didn’t they? Yeah. When you just mentioned that. Because if you succeeded alright like you’d have a job to, if the Germans were keeping an eye on you they would have Morse wouldn’t they? Pigeons would be different, wouldn’t it? And instead of coming back through —
Interviewer: Sorry Chris. Finger trouble on my part. Where were you?
CA: Yeah. Me and my mate had been out somewhere for the day and we come back at night time and we didn’t come through the main entrance what’s security. We come in, we cut through somewhere and the next day one of them, well it was a flight sergeant or somebody or the warrant officer said, ‘Oh, the CO wants to see you.’ I thought oh my God, we’re in trouble because we didn’t come through the security gate like. So I walked in there and there was a lady CO. She said, ‘Oh, come in airman.’ She talked real posh. She said, she said, ‘Do you want to go out in Class A or Class B?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t know ma’am.’ I said. ‘My mam’s a widower and —' I said, ‘I don’t know.’ ‘Oh’ she said, ‘You’d better go out and think about it and come back.’ So I went back and I said, ‘I’ll go out in class B ma’am.’ And that’s what I did because you see otherwise you had to wait your time didn’t you? If you’d been in say so many all in like a section weren’t you? A B C D.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: So I came out in B.
Interviewer: Right.
CA: So back to Sandy again I went didn’t I? I got my civilian suit and all that didn’t I?
Interviewer: Yeah. So just we were talking earlier that you’d gone back to Scotland and you’d been put in charge of some German prisoners of war.
CA: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: You want to just talk.
CA: Oh, you didn’t get that did you?
Interviewer: No.
CA: Oh yeah. And then, I don’t know. I don’t think they knew what to do with us because they were trying to get rid of us like after the war and then she just said, ‘Well, would you like to just see to these German prisoners of war? They’ve got to go and do a job.’ Like, and that’s what I did like and they were pretty good really in a sense and you got talking to them. They spoke pretty good English and you know there was three categories A, B and C like. Some were Germans, some mid-way and some with us like you know and they were doing jobs and we used to wander up in the morning and he said, ‘Do you mind if we put these containers under each tray? Make it drip.’
[telephone ringing – recording paused]
Interviewer: How you guarded the prisoners so that —
CA: Oh yeah. Well, he just said, ‘Will you guard these Germans. He said, ‘Just get a Sten gun but no ammunition. So, of course, I go in the armourer and I said, ‘I’m going to take ammunition.’ You know. I’m not taking any chances. So that’s what I did. But they were brilliant I must admit and [pause] yeah. They behaved pretty good.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: Yeah.
Interviewer: To the tree.
CA: Yeah. Yeah, well as I was saying when the phone rang, oh yeah, he said, ‘Do you mind if we tie these containers to each tree and cut it so that the sap runs into the bottle like?’ I said, ‘That’s alright.’ And then he was talking about it and when we come back I said, ‘What’s all that about?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We make our own, we do our own hair cream.’ He said. ‘Do you want some?’ I said, ‘You must be joking.’ I said, and he took his hat off and he’d got a lovely mop of hair which the Germans had and that was the end of that conversation. They used to say, ‘I will make this for your mother.’ And you know, oh yeah. They were lovely. And that was the end of that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Alright. Yeah.
CA: Oh aye. And I used to write the letter and then of course had to go through all the rigmarole at Kirmington and hoping that he got the letters but he never got the letters.
CA: Right. That’s interesting.
Interviewer: Yeah. I told you about that guy used to write to. He was an Army guy. I said, ‘Did you —’ when I saw him after the war, ‘Did you —’ pardon?
Other: Name?
CA: His name? Oh, I don’t know what his name was. I don’t know. I don’t know. I can’t remember his name.
Interviewer: Yeah.
CA: I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean that’s —
[Recording cuts suddenly].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Christopher Francis Allison
1007-Allison, Christopher Francis
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v15-02, SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v15-03
Description
An account of the resource
Interview in two parts.
Part one.
Chris Allison served as a flight engineer. He answers questions from school children about what it was like to fly in a Lancaster.
Also taking part in this interview was Tony Bradley who was a child in Hull during the war, and Patrick Bateman who served in Borneo in the Royal Marines.
Part two.
Christopher Allison served as a flight engineer on 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dave Harrigan
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:33 audio recording
00:23:23 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary. Allocated C Campbell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Borneo
Great Britain
Malaya
England--Lincolnshire
166 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
childhood in wartime
flight engineer
prisoner of war
RAF Kirmington
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46417/BRobinsonS20240219.1.pdf
f73dc37f2c271f8d92265a28e59b5e2e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Septimus Robinson service history
Description
An account of the resource
A brief history of Septimus Robinson's RAF career.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BRobinsonS20240219
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Robinson
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page document with photographs
11 OTU
75 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Kirkham
RAF Mepal
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46415/SRobinsonS190538v10006.1.jpg
74affbd09b48ff2c4b129f7a69b3de97
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Second World War Medals Awarded to Septimus Robinson
Septimus Robinson's decorations
Description
An account of the resource
A page with images of the 1939-45 Star (obverse and reverse), the Bomber Command clasp and of the France and Germany Star (obverse only). Text gives details of the qualifying service. At the top is handwritten: "Received medals and Bar on 3/4/17".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SRobinsonS190538v10006
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page document with photographs
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46413/PRobinsonS18010010.1.jpg
e2c9873a136fc510150568022ab8146e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46413/PRobinsonS18010011.1.jpg
c74ea9a85ae04d9ace9555d0cc5ad774
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Osterfeld
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Osterfeld (Oberhausen-Sterkrade). Roads and buildings are visible as are the Rhine-Herne Canal and railway running from centre left to upper right. Smoke can be seen in the lower left quadrant of the image and there is some glare at the top centre and bottom right.
It is annotated "4B"and captioned: "3010 MEP. 22.2.45//7" 18,500 110º 1601 OSTERFELD. D 1 HC4000IN. 10ANM64DT. 2GP250DT. C36 SECS. F/O O'MALLEY.F.75"
Also a handwritten note: "OSTERFELD:- GENERAL INDUSTRIAL ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010010, PRobinsonS18010011
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-02-22
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-22
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Rhine-Herne Canal
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph and one page handwritten note
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46412/PRobinsonS18010013.2.jpg
2be50a2c2e0e1124c09ebbf7c54f4e8e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46412/PRobinsonS18010014.2.jpg
f3104f028240d56231d25c99156a9a84
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46412/PRobinsonS18010015.2.jpg
dfa7f559242259232f61145fc736eb0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wesel
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Wesel. Some roads and railway tracks can be seen in the upper half while at the centre there are several plumes of smoke. The whole area is covered by thin cloud.
It is captioned: "2952 MEP. 16.2.45//7" 19,000' 112º 1600 WESEL. D. 1HC4000,9ANM64DT,2GP250IT,1MC500DT. C5 SECS8 F/O O'MALLEY. F.75."
The reverse of the photograph is annotated: "[unclear] Robinson" and " No 8 [unclear]".
Also a handwritten note: "WESEL:- BOMBING THROUGH CLOUD. LANCASTER WITH ROBINSON - AIR BOMBER FIRST OVER TARGET AND ON TARGET ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010013, PRobinsonS18010014, PRobinsonS18010015
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-02-16
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-16
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph, one page handwritten note
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46410/PRobinsonS18010006.2.jpg
fd453e7f735e47e697675ff2ae0874a2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46410/PRobinsonS18010007.2.jpg
f2d70a7a7a9ad75cf4c4e4fe1d80751a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Koln-Gremberg
Description
An account of the resource
A target photograph of snow covered Koln-Gremberg. In the upper, right quadrant are some marshalling yards and the River Rhine, partially obscured by cloud. In the upper and lower left quadrants is a main railway line. At upper centre is an area of housing arranged in an oval. There are many explosions visible.
It is annotated "4B" and captioned: "2822 MEP. 28.1.45// 7" 20,000' 035 1413 KOLN-GREMBERG D 1HC4000IN, 9ANM64IN, 4GP250DT C 37SECS P/O O'MALLEY F.75".
Also a handwritten note: "KOLN-GREMBERG:- ATTACK ON RAILWAYS ETC. RAILWAYS MIDDLE RIGHT-TOP. ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010006, PRobinsonS18010007
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-28
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-28
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
One page handwritten note
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46408/PRobinsonS18010003.1.jpg
d95e05199d98dd8bc8bec58f1aecef16
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46408/PRobinsonS18010004.1.jpg
da0f4e51213268849210dcd1fcc2dcc1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46408/PRobinsonS18010005.1.jpg
0c6f9bd205fc94bfbd505e4ade7a39a5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Duisberg
Description
An account of the resource
A target photograph of Duisburg. Cloud or smoke obscures the ground and there are several light trails in the centre of the photograph.
It is annotated "5B" and captioned: "2809 MEP. 22/23.1.45//NT(C)8" 19,000' 112º 2009 DUISBERG [sic]. Z 1HC4000IN, 2GP500LD. 5ANM58DT. 2GP250DT. 31 SECS P/O O'MALLEY. A.75".
The reverse of the target photograph is annotated "Robinson".
Also a handwritten note: "DUISBERG [sic]:- ZIG-ZAG FLASH CAUSED BY THE AIRCRAFT TAKING EVASIVE ACTION WHILE UNDER ATTACK BY NIGHT-FIGHTER. ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010003, PRobinsonS18010004, PRobinsonS18010005
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-22
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-22
1945-01-23
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Duisburg
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph, one page handwritten note
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46407/PRobinsonS18010019.1.jpg
6c81df4328aa5147f746fe20d276dc67
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46407/PRobinsonS18010020.1.jpg
21171cc8c8bd4994501cf9d25e693ada
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Krefeld
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Krefeld. Cloud, smoke and glare obscures all ground detail.
It is annotated: "3B" and captioned: "2735 MEP. 11.1.45//7" 20,000' 130º 1514 KREFELD A 1HC4000IN, 12MC500DT, 4GP250DT. C.37SECS F/S O'MALLEY K.75.".
Also a handwritten note: "KREFELD:- RADAR BOMBING THROUGH CLOUD ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010019, PRobinsonS18010020
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-11
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Krefeld
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph; one page handwritten note
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46406/PRobinsonS18010021.1.jpg
0367746368e713bf5d8f08927b789072
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Neuss
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Neuss. Glare and cloud obscures all ground detail. It is annotated "5B" and captioned: "2720 MEP.6/7.1.45//NT(C) 7" 20,000' 029º 1853. NEUSS E 1HC4000IN, 13ANM64DT. 31 SECS. F/S. O'MALLEY C.75".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010021
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-07
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-06
1945-01-07
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Neuss
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46405/PRobinsonS18010018.1.jpg
69ae1cc697618e7259914cf892d21dd6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vohwinkel
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Vohwinkel. Smoke and glare obscures most of the ground and only the vague outlines of some ground features are visible.
It is annotated: "5B" and captioned: "2659 MEP 1/2.1.45//NT(C)7' 19,500. 360º 1944 VOHWINKEL K 1HC4000IN. 12GP500DT. 2MC500DT. 31 SECS. F/S O'MALLEY. G 75".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010018
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-02
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Wuppertal
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46402/PRobinsonS18010016.2.jpg
f45a3342e10155ca9678412534fb6352
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46402/PRobinsonS18010017.2.jpg
ec507a88e3822331a8d73ba70fe99157
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Vohwinkel
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Vohwinkel. In the lower right quadrant rail tracks and sidings are visible, alongside which is a distinctive complex of roads and buildings. The buildings and streets of Gräfrath can be seen at the centre left of the image while at the right, just above centre right is the small settlement of Haan. Field boundaries and roads can be seen over the whole area though flak bursts obscure some of the central part of the image.
It is annotated "3B" and captioned: "2652 MEP 31.12.44//7' 19,500 090º 1444 VOHWINKEL K 1HC4000IN. 14ANM64DT. C 37SECS. F/S O'MALLEY. G. 75".
Also a handwritten note: "VOHWINKEL:- FACTORY - RAIL SITE. NOTE RAILWAYS BOTTOM RIGHT HAND CORNER. FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT".
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010016, PRobinsonS18010017
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-12-31
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-12-31
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Wuppertal
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph; one page handwritten note
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46401/PRobinsonS18010012.1.jpg
bd51f9952380e7d0d467761e93ab2ed6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sigen
Description
An account of the resource
Target photograph of Siegen. Cloud or smoke obscures all ground detail. It is annotated "3B" and captioned: "2547 MEP. 16.12.44//7" 17,500. 027º 1500 SIGEN [sic]. F 1HC4000IN. 5MC1000DT. 4ANM64DT. C34 SECS. F/S O'MALLEY. J.75
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010012
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-12-16
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-12-16
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Siegen
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46400/PRobinsonS18010001.2.jpg
566072c5944fe2349e18059def46b788
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46400/PRobinsonS18010002.2.jpg
f14447f335e75318ffb800bfe022df9b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oberhausen
Description
An account of the resource
A target photograph of Oberhausen. Cloud or smoke obscures the ground. There are some small smoke trails at centre left.
It is annotated "5B" and captioned: "2445. MEP. 4.12.44 //8 19,600. 109º 1412 OBERHAUSEN,YI 1 HC4000IN. 6ANM 50DT. 6GP500DT. C.36SECS. F/O O'Malley. E.75"
Also a handwritten note: "OBERHAUSEN:- WHITE SHADE CLOUD. DARK SHADE SMOKE FROM FIRES STARTED BY FIRST WAVE OF BOMBERS. ← FLIGHT OF AIRCRAFT."
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PRobinsonS18010001, PRobinsonS18010002
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-12-04
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-12-04
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph; one page handwritten note
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocation impractical
75 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Mepal
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46398/LRobinsonS190538v10001.1.jpg
75321ff8a21c9d154c8ef0777a603468
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46398/LRobinsonS190538v10002.1.jpg
2dcfa23d18b072eba907da9cfe5a7211
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46398/LRobinsonS190538v10003.1.jpg
96cac5ceb3744f382fb2f1a284d80c4c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2657/46398/SRobinsonS190538v10004.1.jpg
65cf3c8d159e5944096b0712a28f05f4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robinson, Septimus
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns Septimus Robinson (1915 - 1986) and contains his birth certificates, log book and several personal and target photographs. Septimus Robinson flew as a bomb aimer with 75 Squadron to targets in the Ruhr and further east, including Dresden on Operation Thunderclap.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Robinson and catalogued by Andy Fitter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-21
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Robinson, S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Septimus Robinson observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Log book with a pasted certificate summarising Robinson's air bomber training at 11 Operational Training Unit. The log book pages are missing.
Also a page with images of the log book front cover and the summary of training. Above the images it is annotated: "Below is all that's entered in his bomb aimers training log book, (Observers and Air Gunners Flying Log Book) the rest of the pages are blank."
Below the images is the statement: "I have also included my fathers and my own birth certificates."
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LRobinsonS190538v10001, LRobinsonS190538v10002, LRobinsonS190538v10003, SRobinsonS190538v10004
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One log book; two colour photographs on a page
11 OTU
aircrew
bomb aimer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
training