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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/712/9286/PBlakeMMD1801.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/712/9286/ABlakeMMD180711.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Blake, Muriel Mary Doris
M M D Blake
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftswoman Muriel Blake (b.1922, 489709 Women's Auxiliary Air Force), her identity card and four photographs. She served as a parachute and dinghy packer at RAF Mepal.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Muriel Blake and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-07-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Blake, MMD
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview with Muriel Blake [buzz] Harry Bartlett on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive carrying out the interview. It’s [pause] looking at the clock —
MB: Oh no. Don’t look at that. No. No.
HB: Which is broken.
MB: It’s not [laughs] It’s so old I daren’t let it go.
Other: Five to eleven.
HB: Right. Five, its five to eleven now in the morning. Right. Muriel. Your chance to tell us your story. Can you just start off where, where where you were born?
MB: I was born at Oakham in Rutland. My parents came from Lincolnshire. Mother from Market Deeping. My father from Stamford. And they were married there and there’s lots of photographs. I’ve got the wedding photograph and everything there. But then my father went in the war, the First World War and when he came back they moved to Oakham. Father started up a business there and I was born there. My sister was born in Stamford during the First World War.
HB: Right.
MB: Because she was six years older than me and I was born in Oakham. Educated at Oakham Central School which was a very good school. The, took the eleven plus in those days but there was only one, one girl and one boy that passed every year to go to Oakham School which was the school.
HB: Yeah. Yeah
MB: And the Girls School at Stamford. So you didn’t get a chance and we were not Oakham people. My sister passed but they made some excuse because she’d made a mistake because we’re Catholics. And they said, my father said they said she’d passed you know and she was a clever girl and then they let my father know that she hadn’t passed. That [Monica Clark] had which was a very old Oakham very classy, you see the Oakham ones. And as I say Father wanted the investigation and they said she’d, her mistake was that she said who was the head of the church and my sister said the pope [laughs]
HB: Oh, right. Right.
MB: That was their excuse.
HB: So, did, did you what what year would that be as you were coming up towards leaving the Central School.
MB: About 1922. And I was eleven in 1933.
HB: About ’33.
MB: When I, when I took the —
HB: And were you, were you expected to go out to work? Did you look for work or what happened?
MB: I left school when I was fifteen wasn’t I? I was, what’s that? I was eleven when I was, ’33 wasn’t I? So how many years was that? Four years wasn’t it? No. I started off, I wanted to be a children's nurse. A nanny. My mother had been a nanny and my one ambition was to be a nanny with a posh family because they were all posh families round Oakham. Well, only for the winter. They came for the hunting season and all the big houses. Big estates. I wanted to be a nanny you see but I wanted to travel abroad with the children.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
MB: And I was going to, I was hoping to go to a very posh nanny college to train you see. But then the war came out didn’t it and that spoiled a lot of us didn’t it? Then that’s how I went in to, my father was a plumber and decorator [squeaking] I think it’s my feet.
HB: Ah.
MB: And he got his workshops you know and then he got a front shop and he was about do it yourself wallpapers and all that and I went to work there to start with. And then unbeknown to me, you didn’t have a life of your own, well I mean I had a lovely life but we didn’t do what the kids do these days. I mean the man up the road came up and said to my father, ‘They’ve got a vacancy. They’d like to have your daughter.’ So dad said that was alright. Then when I went home at lunchtime he said, ‘You’re now working at Peasgood’s.’ [laughs]
HB: Right. Oh. As simple as that.
MB: There was nothing nasty about it [laughs] but, you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: That’s how life was.
HB: Yeah.
MB: You did as you were told.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But I was still hoping to go and of course then the war broke out so there was no chance of ever going to a posh, to be a nanny, you know.
HB: No.
MB: All that sort of thing was going by the board and, and then my sister, Pete’s mum she was married and they lived in Leicester and they had a restaurant and they were really working at war work because they had a three rest, café rooms but when the war broke out all round East Park Road and as I say there’s [unclear] all around there and they were all factories in those days.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But they lived down the East Park Road. A big house on East Park Road and they cooked their dinners. They had the lower stairs rooms were for the females and two more rooms downstairs for the workmen and they, they were on rations. I mean, my mother never went without. I found a letter the other day, ‘Could you please bring, if Muriel comes home for the weekend could she please bring some butter. I’m running out.’
HB: Right. So, she was, so they were feeding the factory workers.
MB: Yes. Feeding the factory workers but not only were they —
HB: Right.
MB: Feeding them at lunchtime. And it was a hot dinner and maybe it wasn’t —
HB: Yeah.
MB: It was a hot dinner, and a pudding and a drink. And do you know how much it was?
HB: No.
MB: A shilling. That’s all it cost in those days and, and she had her rations of meat and of course they all came because they were getting these good dinners, you know off the ration and one day she had, they had to have rabbits. You used to get, the butcher used to deliver all these rabbits. I mean, I love rabbit but they used to do rabbit pies and steamed puddings and all that sort of thing.
HB: Right.
MB: But then and so I went to, by this time Pete, Peter wasn’t born then. His elder brother was who spent his life in the Air Force. He’d done his career as an airman. Pete’s dad had gone. I mean he was the chef but he went in the Air Force, you see.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And so I went to help her out. She’d got waitresses and all that sort of thing. People doing the cleaning and everything. So, I got [unclear] you know, I didn’t get called up for quite a while because of that you see.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And then —
HB: So, so how many were in your family then, Muriel?
MB: In my family?
HB: Yeah.
MB: Just my sister and I.
HB: Just you and your sister.
MB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And your sister was called —?
MB: Frances.
HB: Frances. Yeah.
MB: Frances Johnson.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And then Pete came along like so that made an extra one. And then, eventually I went in to the now, we’re getting desperate I think. It was a case of, ‘Do you want to be in a factory?’ ‘No, thank you.’ ‘Do you want to be on the land?’ ‘No, thank you.’ ‘I want to go — [laughs] I always wanted to go in the WAAF because while I was young they built Cottesmore you see.
HB: Right.
MB: So, I always associated with them.
HB: Yeah.
MB: The Air Force sort of thing. And one of my cousins —
HB: Yeah.
MB: He was, he became a wing commander in the Air Force.
HB: Right.
MB: And then he went out to Canada with the, after the war he transferred to the Canadian Air Force.
HB: Right.
MB: And spent the rest of his time out there.
HB: So, so you actually you were working in, in the restaurant but then as as the war was declared were you obviously you carried on in the war. Roughly when were you called up then Muriel?
MB: About, what’s it say on that mug, Peter. No this —
Other: This one here?
MB: Yeah. Tony did that for me.
Other: What would you say? The glasses. I haven’t got my glasses.
MB: Oh, you haven’t got your glasses on. My nephew has done this for me. Oh, that is the right number. You can have a look at that if you like.
HB: So, this is, this is a lovely —
MB: Tony had that done at the museum at —
HB: Cup for a WAAF.
MB: Where was it at. What’s that museum called down in Shropshire? They have got —
Other: Near Telford.
MB: Yeah. Near —
HB: And you were right with your service number because this mug is, has got the crest.
MB: Yeah.
HB: With WAAF in the middle and it’s got 489709.
MB: I’ve got that.
HB: ACW1 Muriel Blake. Safety equipment worker. RAF Mepal.
MB: Yeah.
HB: January 1944 to February 1946.
MB: Yeah. Because then I came out sick.
HB: So it was the beginning of 1944.
MB: Oh, yeah.
HB: That you went in. So what was your, what was your, how, what was your process for joining?
MB: Well, as I say I’d always, when I was young I wanted to be in the Fleet Air Arm. Don’t ask me why because it fascinated me [laughs] Planes fascinated me and so I wanted to be in the WAAFs so I said I’d volunteer, to choose and go in the WAAF. So that’s where I went and that was when I down here I went down to Ulverscroft Road. Do ad they still do that there? We did all the recruiting. All these girls [laughs] all these girls.
HB: That’s Ulverscroft Road in Leicester. Yeah.
MB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I had a quiet life really and all these girls were all out of the country and that. I didn’t know Leicester people. I thought, well, a lot of Leicester people were awful you know. All these women used to walk about with their rollers in their hair. I used to say to my mother. ‘Do you know they go in to town on a Saturday afternoon. They’ve still got their rollers in their hair.’
HB: Oh dear.
MB: She said, ‘Yeah. But they’ll all be dressed up tonight in the pub.’
HB: Yeah. So, you went to Ulverscroft Road to sign up.
MB: Signed up there.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And —
HB: And what, what was that process like there?
MB: Well, it was alright to start with but we were all sitting there. There was two girls from Coalville and we, we all went for a medical and then the girl next to me they called her back and when she came back she was crying. So I said, ‘What’s the matter with you?’ So, she said, ‘They’ve just found out I’ve got TB,’ she said. So, I mean living in Coalville you could understand that really. All that dust. Can’t you? So, she said. Coalville. So, the next thing you know they called my name out. Muriel Blake. So, they said, ‘You’ve got to go back. The doctors want to see you again.’ I thought, ‘TB. I can’t have TB. I’ve lived in Oakham all my life. Nothing’s fresher than Oakham air.’ I was that indignant [laughs] I thought —
HB: Yeah.
MB: How can they call me back? There’s nothing wrong with me. I used to have rosy cheeks. So, I got back on the bed and I said, ‘Why have you called me back?’ He said, ‘It’s your hammer toe.’ [laughs] So I said, ‘It’s a family trait this is.’
HB: Oh right.
MB: It come from my mother and you know, goes through the family. I said, ‘I’ve always had a hammer toe ever since I was a child.’ So, he said, ‘Yes. But you can’t have a hammer toe. You can’t go in the forces with a hammer toe.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ ‘Well, you won’t be able to do the square bashing.’ So, she said, ‘You won’t be able to wear the shoes.’ I said, ‘I hope I’m not going to be square bashing all the time.’ [laughs] Anyway, all these doctors stood around me. They said, ‘No. You definitely won’t be able to go.’ So I said, ‘Don’t be so ridiculous.’ I said [laughs] ‘I’ve got through school and everything else. They aren’t painful.’ So, anyway, they let me go.
HB: Oh right.
MB: So then we went for interview for what job you were going to, wanting to do. So I wanted to be a driver and my father had taught me to drive through fields around, all around Luffenham and that. I mean they didn’t have to get licenses in those —
HB: No.
MB: In those days. So, I said, ‘I want to be, I’m going to be a driver. I would like to be a driver please.’ So he said, ‘No. You can’t be a driver.’ So I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘You’re not tall enough.’ [laughs] I’m five two.
HB: Right.
MB: So, he said, ‘Anyway, you don’t weigh enough.’ I only weighed six and a half stone but I was as healthy as anything.
HB: Yeah.
MB: There was nothing wrong with me. So, I said, ‘Now, what am I going to do?’ I said, ‘Why can’t I drive? My dad’s taught me to drive.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘You wouldn’t be able to pull the crew buses. They’ll be to big for you, you see.’ Well, that’s what I wanted to do, wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MB: So I said, ‘Well, what other trade can I do?’ He said, ‘We’ll put you down as a mechanic.’ So I said, ‘You’ve got to be joking.’ I said, ‘If I knock a nail in the plane the plane will fall to pieces.’ I said, ‘I haven’t the faintest idea how to do anything like that.’ Still haven’t. So, he said, ‘Well, I don’t know. What can you do?’ he said, ‘You could be set, we’ll try safety equipment.’ So they put me down. I’d no idea what safety equipment was but that’s what they put me down for. So offer came back, waited for the papers which eventually came and my dad, I went from Leicester and my dad, my mum and dad came over to see me off on the train. Very, we were all tearful and that you know like you would be. And I went to near, [pause] where’s the big training camp place. I’ve forgotten that now. Oh hell.
HB: There was quite a few.
MB: Yeah. Where they, where we all went.
HB: Was it up near Blackpool?
MB: Yeah. No, it wasn’t Blackpool. No. It wasn’t Blackpool.
HB: Yorkshire.
MB: Wilmslow. At Wilmslow.
HB: Wilmslow.
MB: Yeah.
HB: Right.
MB: We went to Wilmslow. And they sat, they all got on the train. There were a lot of girls on the station and we all got on the train and I thought coming from the country you see I thought all these city girls, they were born wiser than me and I thought well I’m not going to cry on the train. I wouldn’t let anybody know that I’m upset. So I sat in the carriage you know, I’m full of myself and all the rest. I looked at the rest of these Leicester girls and they were all crying [laughs]
HB: Dear.
MB: And we gets to the hut and they said, [unclear] to have something to eat. And we sat at these long tables. We’d always, you know done everything right because we was at nanny, you know. I mean at teatime we had an embroidered cloth and at lunchtime we had a proper, you know we used to have a dinner at dinner time. Everything was always very proper. And somebody said, ‘Pass the jam.’ And there was a big dish like that with all this horrible jam in it and they went whoosh like that and shot it [laughs] And I thought oh my mother would die.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Not at home anymore.
MB: No. No. And they, they gave us all this stuff for carrying. You know, your uniform and your blankets and that and took us to this hut and just as we were going to bed all these girls were crying again [laughs] I thought they’re not as tough as they look, you know. They all looked as if they knew it all.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And that was it. We did they square bashing which I wasn’t very keen about really. I don’t think anybody was in those days. And then I got sent to [pause] Where? The one near Cambridge.
HB: Mepal.
MB: No.
HB: Mepal.
MB: No. The one at Waterbeach.
HB: Oh.
MB: Waterbeach, because Waterbeach was the —
HB: Waterbeach. Right.
MB: That was near Cambridge. That, that was the main one and Mepal and Witchford were new ones that had been built.
HB: Right.
MB: During the war, you know. Quickly.
HB: Yeah.
MB: They were the satellite ones but we went to the, I went to the Waterbeach one. I mean that was another thing. I mean people don’t understand in those days I mean it wasn’t that you didn’t have perhaps the money but people didn’t dash around on holiday and, I mean, we used to go out for days you know. Dad would take us to Hunstanton and things like that and I think I’d been to London a couple of times and he’d taken us round. But you hadn’t done things on your own so much. And there you were with a kit bag [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
MB: And a big paper telling you where you were going. And we got off the train at Cambridge and thought how the devil am I going to get to Waterbeach?
HB: Right.
MB: And then you see somebody in uniform, you know. They tell you what to do. And, and then of course I went in to the safety equipment section and they’d heard nothing about it. And there was mostly men in there in the parachute section and I was fairly new I suppose. A bit young and inexperienced. And there was one little fella and he, he was a lot older you know. He was a bloke in his fifties or forties I should think perhaps, been in the Air Force before but he was lovely and he taught, he was teaching me how to do them. A parachute. And I always used to forget the rip cord handle. The last bit you put on is the most important bit which pulls the parachute out and I always used to forget to fasten it, you know and me being anxious like. And I wasn’t there very long before I got posted to Hereford there, and Credenhill and he, and he brought me a little present, and inside the present, now that’s upstairs, I think, a scruffy little bit of paper like that, and it said, “Don’t forget the ripcord.” [laughs]
HB: I like it. I like it.
MB: And so then I went to, we went to Credenhill which was terrible. Horrible. Half way up a mountain.
HB: Where was that? Grand hill?
MB: Credenhill.
HB: Credenhill.
MB: Is it still there?
HB: I don’t know.
MB: No. It’s outside Hereford. It was halfway up [laughs] halfway up a mountain somewhere.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: And it was absolutely isolated and it was freezing cold and they, that’s where we did the training, you know for the, it was, there was, it was a big place.
HB: Did the, did they fly from there or—
MB: No. No. No.
HB: No. That was purely —
MB: That was just pure training.
HB: A training place. Yeah.
MB: It was a mixed. There wasn’t just parachutes and dinghies and, you know it wasn’t just safety equipment. I tell you who were there, not that you saw them because it was so big except if you happened to be in the same section, you know, training on, on the same things was the paratroopers. They’d never let anybody pack their parachutes. They packed their own.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And of course, they used to have to have them for you know all the materials and that that they dropped.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I mean their parachutes were much bigger and much more complicated than ours were. And so we went on and of course we went from one section to another and we marched all the time. We had this awful [laughs] awful sergeant. Auburn haired she was. And she marched us. Marched us there and she marched us there and because we were all new you know and a bit rebellious so when she wasn’t looking we used to nip between the different buildings and come out the other side and so she used to lose us. In the end she bought, got herself a bike.
HB: Just so she could check if you were.
MB: She got track.
MB: Yeah.
MB: Cycling round these buildings. ‘There you are. What are you doing?’ ‘Oh, well we just went around that way. We thought it would be quicker.’
HB: Dear me. So, so you learned you, what you’re learning then is, is packing the parachutes and getting them ready.
MB: Yeah. And the dinghies. And the dinghies.
HB: For the crews to use.
MB: And the big dinghies.
HB: I was curious about the dinghies because I don’t think people really think much about the dinghies but —
MB: Well, they were, that was what did my back in. That’s why I had to come out you see.
HB: Right.
MB: Because I slipped my disc. They were the hardest and especially if you got new. You see, when a plane crashed you lost everything so it all had to be replaced.
HB: Right.
MB: And the dinghies you’d get the rubber so they were really hard but we used to have to go every so often. The parachutes we kept you know. They came and collected, as they were going off on the ops they’d come and collect their parachute. But the dinghies were always in the plane and then we did this big one in the wing as well.
HB: Yeah.
MB: We used to climb out on the wing. But they, we used to have to fetch them out every so often and replace them and bring them back in to the, there was, there was a parachute section and a dinghy section. They were separate. They weren’t —
HB: Yeah.
MB: They weren’t all in the same building. And the dinghy section it was you had to wear, well they were made I suppose, blanket slippers over your shoes. You weren’t allowed to go without anything on your shoes and everything was absolutely perfect because when you blew them up you blew seven parachute err dinghies up. You know the least little bit of petrol or anything would make a hole in it.
HB: Yeah.
MB: So —
HB: Yeah.
MB: We used to have to, and we’d blow them up for so many hours and then we used to have to repack them again and then we used to have to let them down again. But they went in a pack, like a parachute pack so and we used to have to, used to, we used to get literally there was three, three girls in our section. The rest were men and we used to literally have to kneel on the table you know to get our balance to get them done.
HB: Right.
MB: And you’d get to the last bit, you know and you’d be bounding away. And then we used to have to take them back. And we used to ride all round the perimeter tracks, me and another girl and there used to be a fella used to go with us and we used to have one across the handlebars and one on each handlebar cycling round the perimeter track because all the planes were all the way around.
HB: Yeah.
MB: So you’d go from one bay to another.
HB: On bikes.
MB: Yeah. On bikes. So, you’d have, I’d have three, Vi would have three and the other, the fella, I can’t think what his name was. A Londoner, he was lame. And he, I think he had two. He were in charge I think.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Or he probably only had one knowing him. And then we would have to replace them. But then we would have to bring the others back you see as well.
HB: Did you, did you actually go in to the aircraft and go out on the wings to do it?
MB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, so then we used to go in the, used to go and get in the planes you see and sometimes you used to be, they used to be revving them up. The engineers did and that.
HB: Yeah.
MB: The mechanics. And Vi and I used to hide you see. We used to put them in, put one in and then you think how manys going off any minute now. They never did. And we’ll hide and perhaps we will get a ride. And they used to be, ‘Come on you two.’ ‘Oh, I thought we were going to get to do, you know circuit and bumps around the camp.’ But no such thing.
HB: Yeah. Right.
MB: And we used to come. Yeah. We used to put the big ones —
HB: So that was at, that was at Mepal.
MB: That was at Mepal on the way back. Yeah.
HB: After you’d done your training at Hereford. Yeah. Yeah.
MB: Yeah. Yes. As I say I didn’t go back to Waterbeach. I went back to Mepal. And there was Mepal. Witchford was three miles from Ely and Mepal was six miles from Ely.
HB: Right.
MB: So, we used to —
HB: So, what, what sort of aircraft were they, were they flying out in your particular —
MB: Lancasters. When I first went, when I went to Waterbeach they were Stirlings.
HB: Right.
MB: But by the time I got back, we got back, well I got back, I don’t know where the others went. I expect they were spread all over. They were Lancasters.
HB: Right.
MB: They’d got Lancasters. It just, you know. They were just becoming very popular like everywhere.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Yeah.
HB: So you, so you would go out. So you, although you were doing the dinghies you, were you still doing the parachutes as well?
MB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MB: We used to swap over.
HB: So you’d swap over.
MB: You see. Yeah. We used to fetch the, we always used to have to hang the parachutes every so often. You had to unpack the parachutes and in a parachute section they had what they called a well, like that. They had this huge table and then there was, they called it a well and then there was like, like pulleys like you had for washing lines really.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And we used to have to take the parachutes out and hang them and hang them for so long so to get the creases out and that. And then we used to have to take them down and repack them but the tables were, well the length of the whole parachute really.
HB: Right.
MB: And you had to get the top of it and hook it on the top end and then spread it all out. There was all the silks, you know all on panels like that. Then there was all the cords and then a pack at the bottom and you were at the bottom with this length and you had to shake, shake all your cords out like that and then separate them and separate all the folds and then get them all perfectly straight. And then in the pack it was all zipped like that and you had a big hook and he had to say you had to start with the cords and hook that way in, out, in, out. Well, if you didn’t get it in out right the parachute wouldn’t come out. You’d got to get it —
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
MB: You’d got to get it perfect. So then you’d do that, you’d do that and then you’d pull up again and you’d keep doing it. I mean, it wasn’t just a little length it was, well, you can imagine. It was quite long and you’d got all these cords that you had to have in the right place. Well, that was alright when you got that. But being small and the table was high we used to sit with our bottom on the side, the side of our bottom on the table.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And when Tony’s brother went for the same thing which was completely different, you know. With ejector seats and everything else in his day. I, he, he took me one day to one of the, he said we’ve got, we’ve got another section with the old stuff in. I’ll take you. Well, some of the fellas because he was a sergeant, some of the fellas that were working in the section when they came to look and I couldn’t even get up on the table.
HB: No. No. No.
MB: They said, ‘Oh, you’re rubbish.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But then when you’d got all the cords all in perfect then you started bringing in the silks you see. But you had to, you had to have two hands for the silks. You got them parted like that. They were narrow at the top like that sort of thing.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Like that curtain. Then you took the one panel over, then you took the other panel over, and then you took them over until you got it down to about as narrow as, like that.
HB: To, to about what? Just over a foot wide.
MB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And then you’ve got to start bringing the silks in on top of the cords.
HB: Ah right.
MB: But you’d got those in at the certain way, you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Wave them in a certain way and then you got those all in and then you’d got side panels and you brought the side panels up and, like that and then you brought the second lot of panels up and then you’d got this little pack at the back with the rip cord in you see [laughs] That was the one I always forgot.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: Because after you’d got that hold of you used to have these like concertina elasticy things with hooks on you know put over and then you had to do this little pocket thing for last with the ripcord handle and make sure you’d got the rip cord handle in right. So that when they ripped it open they just got the handle and as they pulled so they pulled it, pulled it all out sort of thing.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MB: And if they did it and if they, you know well landed in the, in the Channel like or they landed on this side because a lot of them did, got shot down you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And managed to just get here before they crashed and parachuted out. And then we used to have to sign for them all and when they carried them, because they came back to work they’d come to the girl and they’d look in the book to see who had done it and they’d give us a pound [laughs]
HB: Would they?
MB: Yeah. The crew would give you a pound. And a pound was a lot because we only got —
HB: Wow. Yes.
MB: Two pound fifty a fortnight [laughs]
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: And they’d say, ‘Thank you very much,’ you know, ‘For packing my parachute and here’s a pound for you.’
HB: Yeah.
MB: It wasn’t on all camps but it was on ours you know. We used to be chuffed to death. Not we weren’t chuffed to death. The poor bloke got shot up.
HB: Yeah. That’s right, but a pound for a life isn’t a bad price, is it?
MB: No. Not for a life is it?
HB: Yeah. So, so yeah so, so that was I mean that was quite well it wasn’t just a responsible job, that was very obvious it was a responsible job.
MB: It was a very responsible job but I don’t think it was ever recognised. The funny thing is that Tony I say is at, where is he now? Shropshire, isn’t it? What’s the, what’s the name of his camp?
Other: Cosford.
MB: Yeah. Cosford, he ended up at, he was, he’d been in ever since he left school. Well not quite as soon as he left school.
Other: Yeah.
MB: But when he was old enough. He was the last of the conscripts Tony was. Not just him but his [whole] crew.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But he, as he said they, when he went to Germany, Malta and Cyprus and I think he went to Iran with the, either Iran or Iraq with the crews, you know. His wife didn’t go there. I should think she’s stayed in Cyprus. But it, as he said the thing is that everything was so different now isn’t it? I mean there’s the ejector seats and the, they had to be in charge of them. And, and —
HB: Well, if somebody, somebody had probably still got to pack the parachute and —
MB: Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes.
HB: And that, and that wouldn’t and that still wouldn’t be a lot different to what you used to do.
MB: They used to sit on the parachutes, the parachutes. They used to sit —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: No, they didn’t. They sat on the dinghies. That’s it. They had the dinghies round the bottom. They sat, because we used to have to take them over when we took the dinghies in and out. We had to go to each section. We used to have to go to the rear bomber you know at the end and the rear gunner and put in his. I mean he had a very isolated job really. I mean, it was right at the other end and he was completely shut off. We had one lad, he got shot up and the, the plane got back but he’d been shot in the eye. You know, the plane had been shot and he’d got shot in the eye and we had to go and fetch the parachutes and it was absolutely covered in blood you know because basically it was on his front. And he lost his eye. He was only nineteen but he came back and he came back to you know to see us all it was. That was rather nice but I never liked this. It hung up for ages this bloody parachute. You know. With all his blood on it.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I suppose it was all [unclear] but it —
HB: So what would, what would happen with that then? Would you, would you have, would your team have cleaned it and —
MB: Well —
HB: Got it ready again or —
MB: No. No. No. They wouldn’t have used that one again, no.
HB: No.
MB: But it was, I suppose it was all a bit, you know they had these consultations and God knows what because I mean when they come back from bombing raids we, my friend and I she was a tailoress and of course she was very popular because if a crew went missing they had to keep up the, you know sergeant’s and officer’s —
HB: Yeah.
MB: And that sort of thing. They’d got to keep the compliment up all the time.
HB: Oh yeah.
MB: How many at each camp. So, if a crew, two or three crews went missing then there would be an officer, sergeant and corporal and they’d all want their flashes altered on their uniforms.
HB: Oh, right. Yeah.
MB: So, they’d be all, I used to go in to the tailoring jobs. She wasn’t the only one. There was a man in charge. He was a tailor as well. And they’d all be in there with the uniforms and, ‘Oh look, can you put my sergeant’s on.’ Can you do this? Can you do that?
HB: Oh right. Right.
MB: She was always very popular.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And as for going out on leave we used to get, I used to get heading out the gates it would be [laughs] —
HB: Yeah.
MB: She was so popular and I was. We used to go out at night. We never used to sign out. They used to say, ‘All right, girls you can come in.’ Us two.
HB: Yeah. Oh.
MB: Everybody else used to have to go around the other side.
HB: I see.
MB: Oh, she was a very popular girl she was.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But, yes —
HB: So, so you were, you were at Mepal. That would be what? 1944 through to ’45.
MB: Yeah.
HB: And you didn’t go, you didn’t go anywhere else other than Mepal until —
MB: As I say I came out then because I slipped my disc doing the parachutes.
HB: Right.
MB: And I get a pension actually.
HB: Oh right.
MB: And I was ill for about two years. Not ill ill but I —
HB: No.
MB: I couldn’t walk you know. I was in a terrible state really.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But —
HB: Well, put that to one side and we’ll go back a little bit to the happier times. So, what was the social life like?
MB: Well, it was good. I mean that was the, everybody was friendly and that. We used to go to the sergeant’s mess and as I say we used to go to the dances at the sergeant’s mess but you see we were on, I was on a New Zealand squadron and it was, I didn’t realise that, I think I read it somewhere a little while ago. That the New Zealand squadron was already here before the war. Whether they’d come like when Tony went to Iraq and Iran, one of those countries he went to and he went with the crews to, you know kind of a practicing for good,, you know fellas appearing, and when the New Zealanders belonged to or were part of us anyway weren’t they —
HB: Yeah.
MB: New Zealand and the Australians. And they apparently, they were already over here. They’d already set up a base here and —
HB: Right.
MB: But how they got up to Mepal I suppose they moved them there when they’d come.
HB: And that was 75 Squadron.
MB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. The New Zealanders.
MB: But they were, they were nice. They were very nice. Nice, the new Zealanders were but we also had Australians and South Africans as well. So but, because one of the girls in our hut where I was they sort of all the trades were in huts you know. Were together in huts. I mean, the cook, the cook, cooks oh, it’s awful really but I mean the girls were probably ever so nice but the cooks were in completely different huts to what we were because, well they had to get up at the crack of dawn, didn’t they? You know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: Get the breakfasts and that.
HB: Disturb everybody if they didn’t.
MB: The awful breakfast that we used to get but and so if you, and us girls used to have to be on, used to have to do duty you see in the office, in the what do you call it by the guard gate there and if you did, if you were on the night there you had to wake the [laughs] you had to wake the cooks up and you used to get a list like this of the huts in the dark with the flashlight. You daren’t make too much light, you know. And hut so and so. We had to find that to start with. It was quite a big camp and then, and then you had to go in and it was the third bed on the left. On the left. At 4.30. Right. 4.30. Off you’d go creeping, frightened to death of frightening anybody. Go one, two, three. ‘It’s 4.30.’ ‘What?’ ‘It’s 4.30. 4.30. You’ve got to get up at 4.30.’ ‘It’s not me. It’s her over there.’
HB: Oh no.
MB: By this time they’d got the whole hut up and they could swear those girls I can tell you.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.
MB: ‘It’s not me. It’s not me. It’s her over there. Why did you wake me up for?’ So, I used to, used to go and ask the others and I used to creep out and used to look. There was six there. Oh God, it’s the same hut.
HB: Oh no.
MB: I used to hate that. When we used to be on guard duty. That was the worst bit when and then when you used to go for breakfast you know we used to have to go down for, used to go down for breakfast.
HB: You said, now you said something earlier there. You said about the horrible breakfast. What did you used to have for your breakfast then?
MB: Constipated egg.
HB: Oh right.
MB: Dried egg.
HB: Yeah.
MB: You see and that was the other thing that when the aircrews were you know they had an idea when they were going off and they and they’d get, they’d get a meal you see. They always had egg and chips. Egg and chips. I mean, that was a luxury for us.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Egg and chips. So they got egg and chips when they got bacon or whatever they got but they’d go in the sergeant’s mess and they’d have all this lovely meal. I mean they were entitled to all this lovely meal but we girls, us girls in the parachute section when they used to go we used to say, ‘Why do you get egg and chips every time?’
HB: Yeah.
MB: ‘It’s not fair.’ ‘Well, we’re, we’re entitled to it.’ ‘No. You’re not. We never get fresh eggs.’
HB: Oh dear.
MB: Makes me laugh really. And then perhaps it would be scrubbed and, you know they were going later so they would probably get another meal before they went.
HB: Yeah.
MB: They’d probably get two lots. And we used to cycle six miles to Ely just to stand in a queue, now you won’t believe this down the street at this little café that used, where she got her eggs from I don’t know but she used to serve egg and chips and there’d be a great long queue of people and you’d probably stand there an hour because the place is only tiny and it would be full. You had to wait until they’d ate their egg and chips and then you’d move forward.
HB: Wow. Yeah. I can believe that.
MB: Just to get [laughs] get a fresh egg.
HB: Yeah. So, you used, you used to, you used to cycle to Ely.
MB: Yes.
HB: Did you used to go to Ely for dances and things like that?
MB: Yeah. No. No, because we used to have the dances on the camp. We had enough dances on camp. We were allowed in the, we didn’t go in the officers we were allowed in the sergeant’s mess, you see. We used to go to the sergeant’s mess to the dances. But we used to go to the pictures at Ely. We used to go to the pub and we used to go to the pub at Mepal and Sutton. The nearest village was Sutton and if, if a crew had finished a tour of ops which was thirty then they would, it would go around the camp such and such you know they’d only got their own markings. K for Kiddy or whatever they were. They’d finished their tour of ops and having a do at the pub at Sutton they’d say and off we’d go.
HB: Right.
MB: Someone would get on the piano you know and they used to drink. They used to have this, I didn’t do it but they used to have this, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, they used to have pints of beer and they used to sing this song. And I can’t remember that now but it was all about a good old fella and so and so and every time they said something they all, they had to drink, you know.
HB: Right.
MB: I think they were about sloshed by the time they’d finished.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But that used to be good because they’d be finished then. They’d be going off the camp, you know. Another crew would be coming.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But when they, we, I used to have to go. We used to have to go, well I used to go down to the office, the main office to pick up the dead list in the mornings to see, you know it was to find out how many parachutes and dinghies we’d lost you see. So that used to be —
HB: Of course. Yeah.
MB: Used to get down and pick up the, pick up the list but it used to be when I think about it now I mean of all the computers and that well they used to have a kind of a machine with the photographs because they always had cameras on their planes and they’d, they’d spot it, you know. One would be on and I’d be waiting to sort, and I would be looking and somebody goes. ‘What are you doing? Leave that. You’re not looking at that.’ You know.
HB: Yeah. Of course, you don’t, you know people like us we don’t, we don’t relate that, you know. Obviously, planes had been shot down. Crews had been lost.
MB: Yeah.
HB: And as you say you need to know.
MB: Yeah, because we’d got to know because I mean and it’s, I mean it, I think people that made the Lancasters, the bombers during the war, they were fantastic because I mean as soon, you weren’t, again you’d got to keep the number up all the time and the thing is that as soon as you’d lost a plane or two or three planes overnight. Whichever. They’d have to be replaced. You’d get a new crew in.
HB: Yeah.
MB: You see. That was the thing because you’d got to keep the number up of the squadron. You’d got to keep the squadron number up all the time.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Apart from the sergeants wanting to be promoted.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I mean those that were left you had to get new crews in. When you think of all these young girls that were making all these Lancaster bombers. I mean you see pictures of them now hammering these great big bolts in. Well, now it’s all done by electricity, isn’t it?
HB: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MB: I mean, I think they, you know they should have had medals as well.
HB: So, you’ve got, you’ve got 75 Squadron and, and you know, you’re coming towards obviously 1945. You’re coming towards the end of the war.
MB: Well, that’s why we were so busy, I think. You know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: You see, that’s when the Lancasters first came in to themselves, didn’t they then?
HB: Yeah.
MB: It was the Lancasters that really helped to finish off the war, wasn’t they?
HB: Yeah. And you had other squadrons at Mepal then towards the end of the war.
MB: Well, not on our camp where I was.
HB: Did you not, did you not have the Rhodesia Squadron? 44. 44 Rhodesia Squadron because weren’t they going out to the Far East or something.
MB: I don’t know. Don’t know. Not while I was there. It was still —
HB: Right.
MB: But they were, they were, it was a mix. They weren’t all New Zealanders, you know. I mean they were, I say they were from South Africa, Australia and all over the place.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But in our hut we had the Met girls. They were very posh you know. They were really posh well you know I suppose but they were all college girls. Clever girls you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: The Met sort of thing. I couldn’t have done it. But they were, they were smashing girls. They were all very well educated. I mean again everything is done on computers now, isn’t it?
HB: It is. Yes. Yeah.
MB: It was all the weather and that you know but they were ever so, they really were friendly. And I I used to go home. We used to go home at weekends and without a pass and they used to put the, they used to put all sorts of things. Your kit bag in your bed you know and make it look like you were asleep when the sergeant came.
HB: So, you went absent without leave were you?
MB: Yeah. Well, we had the Armstrong Siddeley men came to mend the planes. They didn’t mend all of them because I mean they all had the —
HB: Oh the civilian contractors.
MB: Yeah.
HB: Yes.
MB: They were in the next group to us and they came from Coventry. Well, they knew that I came this way so if they went home, they used to go home on a Friday so they used to say they’d give you a lift you see. So there used to give me a lift. So there used to be two of them. One used to give me a lift and the other one used to take me a weekend case so I didn’t have to go out with a weekend case.
HB: Right. Were you in uniform?
MB: Yeah. Of course, I was. Yeah. They used to, they used to drop me off at, before Market Harborough for some reason. And that was it. That’s where they dropped me and I used to stand there, you know, thumbing it.
HB: Did you?
MB: And I used to get I thumbed down to Leicester to my sister or if I was lucky I got further on to Oakham. That was on a Friday and I used to come back on a Sunday. I used to get the last train from, from Oakham to Stamford and Peterborough and then from Peterborough to Ely. I used to have to change and I mean they grumble now but Peterborough Station was down there and the station that was going to take me to Ely was right the other side of Peterborough town. So in the pitch dark you used to have to walk there to get this last train which was about ten, half past ten at night and I used to get on this train and get off at Ely. But now that’s what the other fella used to do. He used to take my bike and he used to put it in the pub. There was a pub right on the station at Ely.
HB: You got it all sorted, hadn’t you?
MB: And no, not me, not just me. I mean all the airmen used to do it. It used to be full of bikes and they never charged us. So you used to get off. You’d see, this was Sunday night. You’d get off about 11 o’clock at night and in the pitch dark. You’d have a little torch and you’d go around until you found your bike. You’d get your bike and you’d creep out of the station. Get on the road and there were no lights and it was all fenland, you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: There were no trees or anything and you’d be cycling all along all on your own and then suddenly an airmen would catch you up and he’d say, ‘Hello. Are you alright?’ So, ‘Yes, thank you.’ ‘Where are you going?’ ‘Mepal.’ ‘Oh, I’m just going to Witchford. Do you, shall I ride at the side of you?’ ‘Oh, thank you very much.’ So they’d ride along you see chatting away and he’d say, ‘I turn off here for Witchford.’ Because as I say we were all groups. Off he’d go and then I’d be cycling along again and you couldn’t go in the main gate so you used to have to go around and creep through a hedge. And I just got in. Got in through the, there was a hedge between the WAAF site and one of the bays. And I just got in one night and I heard this woman say, ‘Airwoman,’ in the dark. ‘Yes. Yes.’ ‘Where are you going?’ ‘I’m just going in.’ ‘Where have you been?’ ‘Oh, I’ve just had a little ride around.’ [laughs] ‘Come and see me in the morning,’ she said. So of course, I went in.
HB: Was that one of the officers?
MB: Yeah. And I woke up. I woke my, I think I must have woke the hut up, you know and got, ‘Serves you right. You’ve been doing it for ages.’ [laughs] I got no sympathy.
HB: So, you got caught.
MB: And I got caught.
HB: Basically.
MB: I can’t remember what happened. I got away with it I think in the end.
HB: I don’t know. I don’t know.
MB: But we, where the WAAF site was we weren’t on the main camp. That’s another thing you see. They kept the women away from the men.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: I mean it’s, it’s so different now isn’t it? I mean we were only sort of outside but they were big these camps were, you know so we, there was a hedge there where our hut was and we used to creep through the hole on the hedge and we were on the perimeter track and we used to watch the planes take off at night. So, it was a fantastic sight really because all these Lancasters would be coming round and as they got to each bay they felt they’d got in to the queue.
HB: Followed on.
MB: Until they got to where they took off you know. And I mean when you see the, when we used to fetch take the dinghies and that I mean when you see the amount of armoury that went in you’d wondered how they ever got off the ground because they were big enough without all the bombs that went in.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And the girls, two of the girls in the armoury in our hut and I mean more female girls you’d never know but they used to ride on the bomb trains. They used to sit astride the bomb trains going around from one. They used to be ever so long you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Sort of, they went all the way around and that.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But its as I say you know nobody, nobody took any notice really. But one night there was one night we got bombed. One of the German planes had followed our planes in.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MB: And started firing and I think they got rid of them in the end. But then one night I was fast asleep and everybody was screaming my name. ‘Wake up. Wake up.’ So, I said, and they kept saying, ‘Wake up. Wake up.’ And there was this terrific bang and I opened my eyes and being a good catholic I thought I was dead and I’d gone to hell. Now —
HB: Right. Right. Yeah.
MB: I really thought I was on my way to hell. It was everywhere in this camp, in the hut was bright red and they, they, it was before the invasion really. They they’d taken, it got there was going to be a raid, there wasn’t going to be a raid. There was going to be a raid. They kept on and on and they kept taking the bombs off, putting them back, feeding the what do you call it’s with their egg and chips.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And that. And then this one particular night they decided that they weren’t going to take the bombs off so they left this time the bomb on and it was the plane in the bay. I say it was just a matter of over there and through the, through the hedge and this one, the time itwent off and we went over to see the next day and it was just a hole in the ground and nothing left of the plane or anything else. There was a wonder there was anything left of us.
HB: So, that just, the bomb just went off.
MB: The bomb on it
HB: It wasn’t a raid or anything.
MB: The timed bomb went off on the plane and it just blew the plane to pieces. But the funny part of it was which it was funny I mean the fact we all got when we realised what had happened you know eventually. Nobody dare move to start with but we all got outside in our striped pyjamas you know shivering like but not one person came to see if the WAAFs were alright.
HB: Right. Oh, I bet that didn’t go down well.
MB: No [laughs] Pitch dark, freezing cold, in your pyjamas. Everywhere was red.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MB: Yeah. They never came to say, ‘Are the WAAFs alright?’ Perhaps —
HB: So did you, so actually so Mepal got attacked then. It was actually attacked by the Germans. The airfield.
MB: No. Only that once.
HB: Oh, just the once.
MB: This one fighter, German fighter. When the raid was on his way, I think he was on his way back from bombing, you know. Coming over here and he got caught up with ours coming back. I think that’s what they said.
HB: Right.
MB: So he thought he’d make himself followed them in and get himself a bit of glory but what happened I don’t know.
HB: Right. Yeah.
MB: But, but then we had an American got bombed up when they landed on our camp so great excitement. ‘It’s a Flying Fortress. Goy a Flying Fortress got bombed up last night.’ The crews have landed here. So we all went to see it. This Flying Fortress. A lot of us anyway. And the airmen were coming out. So we were counting them. They’d got, was it eight or nine. I said to one of them, I said ‘How many, how many crew have you got in your van?’ ‘Nine. We only have seven in our Lancasters.’
HB: Yeah.
MB: And right next to them they had their own feeding waggon. They didn’t eat our horrible food. Never once did they come in. And they used to have all these hot dogs and all this lovely food.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Being fried. And then the crew because obviously the crew went away and the mechanics came to repair the plane and they had this. It was right next them, this waggon that they were serving all this food to them [laughs] They never gave us any of it.
HB: That would be a popular job that would. Yeah. So so you got to you got to 1945 and you’ve got to around about May, June, July time and war’s coming to an end and finishing. So, what did you, what were your feelings then?
MB: Well, I came home at Christmas. That’s what I did I, as I say it was through the dinghies that I had my, I got this bad back but I came home at Christmas. Yeah. Because Pete and [Bar?] I brought them some toys because they, some of the mechanic ground crew used to make, make toys. They made lovely toys. I’ve got some pictures of Pete with one horse and cart thing they used to make and I came home with them because I went to Oakham first and then came back. Came around to Leicester because my sister had got all the Christmas dos to do, you know and I thought I’ll help her. I’d only come on leave but I could hardly walk and then I got said I couldn’t go back and that was it. I I went on the sick and then I had my, I ended up going to one of them, I can’t think where that was. Went to a big RAF hospital to start with and, and then they put me on sick leave again and then I ended up at the Royal here. Mr Morrissey. He was a wonderful orthopaedic surgeon at Leicester and he sent me to Oxford. To the Radcliffe Hospital there. That was the leading hospital for orthopaedics and that was when they decided that I’d got this. I’d slipped this disc. You know. I’d pulled a disc out. Of course, it comes out as a big nerve that it sits on but then that nerve split so that was split all the way in.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MB: You know, this leg. It’s funny now now I’ve got an ulcer on it but it was, I couldn’t walk. I couldn’t feel it, you know. They were sticking needles in and all sorts of things.
HB: So that would have been what? Christmas 1945?
MB: Yeah.
HB: Right. So, what happened? What happened in camp when, when you know they said, ‘Right. That’s it. The war’s over.’
MB: I don’t know because I wasn’t there was I?
HB: You weren’t there.
MB: I was still at home.
HB: Right. Right.
MB: It, so I don’t know. It was quite a, when I when I did go on leave I went back to say, and I went back in the were there [unclear] and went back in a civilian coat and to say that I was, you know I was on this permanent sick. They made such a fuss of me because I was in, in civilian clothes. You know, they hadn’t seen a girl in civilian clothes for years. I bought these clothes from Adley’s shop was in those days. My mum went with me, bought this tweed coat. It were very posh that was.
HB: Right.
MB: I thought it was. But as I say I don’t know. I don’t know what happened on the, on the camp but I think eventually where, next to our bay there was another bay that never had its doors open. But one day I was outside doing something and the doors were open and so being nosy I went, I said to one of the airmen that was there. I said, ‘What’s in this? They never open the doors at this. I’ve never seen anybody in here.’ ‘Oh, you can’t see what this is,’ he said and it was all those strips of silver that they, they [pause] for the radar wasn’t it?
HB: Window.
MB: Yeah. The Windows, yeah.
HB: Yeah.
MB: That’s where they kept it. Next door. I didn’t realise that.
HB: Oh right.
MB: I never realised that. It was all full but they used to drop them to —
HB: Yeah.
MB: Do something to the radar according to a woman I worked with after the war. She, she was in the WAAF and she was on the radar section and she went blind and it was through the job that caused her eyes to, she lost her eyesight.
HB: Oh dear.
MB: Not during the war. It was after the war.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Her eyes got so bad but that’s what they put it down to.
HB: Yeah. So, we’ve got to, we’ve got to what? 1946.
MB: I think so. I don’t know. Don’t ask me.
HB: Around about 1946 and you’ve been invalided out. You’re coming out.
MB: Well, that was ages before when I was invalided out. I mean —
HB: Yeah. So you, so obviously all your kit had to go back. What did you do? Did you —
MB: No. Yeah. Well, that’s why I went back eventually. To take my kit back. What did I do then? I stayed at my sister’s until Dave,‘til their dad came back and then I went to, eventually when I could walk I was still lame but I went to the Post Office to train as a telephonist. They were advertising for ex-Service girls and because they were on war work. The telephonists were, you know. They couldn’t leave but when, that was funny it was the other day they was on about that. Yesterday. That even then they were civil servants. When you got married at the GPO you had to leave because you might one day have a baby.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And so you know if you got engaged well you know it was pretty short when you got married. You’d have to leave the job and so of course all the girls during the war, or a lot of them had got married to Forces and things like that and so their husbands were coming back and I suppose they wanted to set up home.
HB: So where did you do your training then, Muriel?
MB: Free Lane.
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MB: You remember Free Lane.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. The big, the big exchange. Yeah.
MB: Yeah, and yeah, we did. That’s where I was but we did our training on London Road. They had, down London Road they had like big offices there and that, that’s all gone now. we did a lot —
HB: Yeah.
MB: Of training down there. They had a big training section and so we did all the writing down there and then we used to come up on to the Exchange and used to sit behind the telephonist, you know and listen in and then they’d let you up on the board and somebody would be used to be sitting at the side you know in case you made a mistake and oh it was ever so strict that was and there was it was quite nice because there were all these girls, ex, I had some good friends. I had a girl, well one girl she’d been in the Army and she’d been down Bournemouth way and she was all involved in the invasion.
HB: Right.
MB: She was a telephonist on that.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And she was saying while before the invasion she said all along the roads there was all the Army and the Americans all camped, you know. Sort of in fields and that all waiting to go abroad you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: All the ships were all waiting and that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: And another one, another friend of mine she, she was in the Wrens. She was in the Wrens. She was in the sea, at the sea and I was, there was me from the Air Force and. There was crowds of us and it was good really.
HB: Yeah.
MB: It was funny I was saying the other day you didn’t, you didn’t talk about your experiences like they say men don’t talk about it but my dad never talked about the First World War although you know he was out there all that time but I suppose this sort of thing, you sort of want to forget really.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MB: But it —
HB: So just go back a bit. D-Day. June’44. What, how did you get the message that they’d actually landed or did you know it was going to happen?
MB: Well, I don’t know. Like everybody else I suppose. I don’t know. I know [pause] I was at my sisters I know because I know mum and dad, my dad went out for. I remember my dad going out for a drink at Oakham and my mother’s next door neighbour said, ‘Has Mr Blake gone out for a drink?’ So mum said, ‘Yes. It’s the usual thing. Left the women at home.’ So he said, ‘Come on then.’ So they went down the George which is the, was a good hotel down there and they walked in and my dad was there and he nearly fell on the floor when he saw my mother walking in, you know. It wasn’t the sort of thing ladies did in those days on their own.
HB: Yeah. I like it.
MB: But then they were, I can’t remember really. I can remember the, we had a big party and was Dave, Dave was born then and Dave was only a baby. That was another one of his brothers.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But show them the picture, Peter.
Other: Which one?
MB: You and Dave, you and Tony but we used to have a neighbourhood, we used to have neighbourhood league teams you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: In the streets.
HB: Yeah.
MB: They all used to look after each other. They were good. We used to do all their apart from, well my sister did. She used to do weddings.
HB: Yeah.
MB: She used to do no end of weddings. She used to make beautiful wedding cakes. Her brother in law did because he was a chef because but then of course he came home so it was better but yeah, it suited them doing the catering for the weddings.
HB: [It would be] yeah.
MB: You see, it was good to get a wedding to get all the, you know nice food sort of thing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean it’s a really really impertinent question to ask a lady but, so you never married.
MB: No.
HB: But did you have any near misses?
MB: [laughs] I’m not talking about them.
HB: You have then, right
MB: I laugh at that little book. It says something about, “I don’t know where Ron is tonight. I think he’s gone off me.” I said, who the devil Ron was I’ve no idea.
HB: That’s your little diary.
MB: That was at Hereford.
HB: Yeah. That was your little diary. Yeah. Yeah. So, right. Well, we seem to have come to a sort of a bit of a natural conclusion Muriel. When you, when you look back at your time in the WAAF what what do you think your best memory is of it?
MB: Well, I don’t know. The companionship. I mean my one regret is I mean I would have gone back if it hadn’t have been that I was no use to them because I just couldn’t.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I couldn’t. You know, I was, I was absolutely lame. I was in terrible agony. Firstly, they were going to operate and my niece who lives in South Africa she has had the operation. I think it’s a family trait and she can’t walk now.
HB: No.
MB: At Oxford they said that no way. They said, ‘She’s much too young to have a, have the operation.’ Have you know the disc put back. What they did they put me in plaster from here to here. Pulled me up on like, on ropes so that just my toes were on the ground and slapped all this plaster of Paris around me.
HB: Yeah.
MB: I was in that for months with just my head sticking out.
HB: Right.
MB: And my legs sticking out and that actually cured me and I know when I went again a few years later and I went back in to them again and it cured it again but that’s gone.
HB: Yeah.
MB: They don’t do that.
HB: No.
MB: They do this operation and my niece has had a steel rung cut up in to her spine and she’s in such agony now and they can’t even x-ray her because of this steel rod —
HB: Yeah.
MB: That she’s got in. So the old ways were [pause] better.
HB: Yeah. So obviously you’ve had this fantastic companionship and what not. What, what do you think was probably your worst memory? What was —
MB: The food.
HB: The food. Yeah.
MB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. That’s a bit of a theme.
MB: Yeah. I suppose being away from home. I mean, you know although you had, I suppose it was so stark. I mean the hooks were cold and you had these old blankets and and we weren’t I mean when we got up in the morning everything had to be folded up you know and put in a heap on top and we were in the middle of fields and your windows were open and when you went back at night you used to pick your pillow up and it would be full of black beetles. You used to have to knock all them off. You know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: And the toilets and the bath things you know I mean they were so stark.
HB: Yeah.
MB: There was no comfort whatsoever. I mean it’s the, it’s the thought. You made the best of it, the fun of it and they used to have these little round fires you know. Little stoves. I mean that was all that kept you. Kept you warm. And I remember at Hereford at Credenhill a friend of mine we decided, we thought I mean people you were innocent in those days. I don’t care what anybody says. I mean even though you were in the Forces. We decided that if we put two beds together and then we’d have a double layer of all these blankets and we’d be really warm. She’d been in her bed, I’d be in my bed but we’d have all these. So we carefully did it during the during the day one day. We put the beds together and put all these blankets in and we were just about to get in and suddenly this, there used to be a sergeant at the end. She had a little room at the end of the huts and they were always a bit [unclear] so she came out, ‘Airwomen, what do you think you’re doing?’ ‘Oh, we thought it would be a good idea because we’re so cold that we could share the blankets.’ ‘Get those beds put apart,’ she said. Well, I’d no idea. I’d never heard of homosexuals or, or whatever they called women. It really never entered my head [laughs].
HB: Oh dear.
MB: And I don’t think the rest of the girls had. They just laughed because they thought we’d gone to so much trouble. And then I met another girl at another camp and she was the hairdresser. She was doing my hair and she was moaning and groaning about a friend who’d been posted. Well, you never got posted, you always got posted on your own and I mean you always had to pick up your stuff and go from one end of the country to the other and make your own way and find out, you know how you were doing it. And they, she kept on about her friend who had gone to Oxford and Oxford way and she so missed her and she was going to like, meet her halfway and if she’d got a day’s leave. And I thought what’s she making such a fuss about, you know, because you moved and you, you made new friends. Everybody immediately made friends, you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: You weren’t isolated unless you were pretty horrible and, and that never failed. And then these two girls that worked in the armoury now they, they were ever such nice girls and they, they were very good friends but the sergeant she was a real mannish, very good looking blonde but she was like that apparently. She took one of these girls it was just like well I can’t explain what it was like. I couldn’t believe it and I still didn’t know what was going on [laughs]
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: I mean you can’t believe in your early twenties you’d no idea what was going on.
HB: No. No. That’s very true.
MB: Now they’re flaunting it in front of you all the time.
HB: Yeah.
MB: But then when I, when I was at the Exchange the police wanted, the police advertised because they wanted some, they were going to have girls in their switchboards. So we all applied because we were all, you see there was, a lot of girls it was a big place Free Lane was, you know, it went all around the room, and of course we all worked shifts and but we always had you were on the board and then behind you was a supervisor for so many girls. Behind her was a Class 1, and then behind her was Miss Huddlestone who was in charge and she sat there in the middle of the room watching everything. She never missed a thing. And if you put your head like that to talk to the girl next to you, a hand would come out, take up a peg and plug it, and of course there were lights everywhere. Plug it in. You weren’t allowed to talk to anybody and if your wanted to go to the toilet you had to put your hand up and if there was anybody else had gone you didn’t go. You had to wait. It was ever so regimental. It had been like that since before the war, you see.
HB: Yeah.
MB: And I think they didn’t, they’d never met girls from the Forces before.
HB: Right. Yeah. So you didn’t get a job with the police then.
MB: Well, there was seventy tow when I went for the, Mr Cole it was when I went to the interview he said to me, ‘You talk to me,’ he said, ‘He says Now, I’m fed up.’ He says, ‘Do you know,’ he says, ‘I’ve had seventy two interviews from the girls from the Exchange.’ He said, ‘What’s the matter with the Exchange?’ So, I said, ‘Oh, I don’t know,’ I said, I said, ‘Most, a lot of them are ex-forces now.’ I said, ‘They’ll, you know they’ve got to get settled down I think.’ ‘Hmmph,’ he said. Anyway, the next thing you know I’ve got a notice to say to go for a second interview and there were six of us out of the seventy two and I was one of the six. And they, the four, they wanted four and then the four that got it had all been telephonists in the Forces. They’d all, and I’d not done PBX telephony.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
MB: I’d done the GPO ones and that was, but I hadn’t done the private work and she said they didn’t think that we were experts and me and another girl there was. So we went back the next morning and she said, ‘No. She hasn’t got it.’ And I hadn’t got it. And within a week we had a letter from the Fire Service to say that they’d got two vacancies in their control room and we’d both got the job if we wanted it. We’d been recommended by Mr Cole.
HB: Wow. Yeah.
MB: So we were back in uniform then.
HB: Oh, right. Yeah. Of course, you would be. Yeah.
MB: Back in to the [unclear] uniform and stayed there until they brought the men back. Then of course —
HB: Yeah.
MB: Eventually they brought the men back. There used to be eight girls and then it got down to there was two of us eventually because the other girls spread out you know eventually but yes it was a good job that was. I cried my eyes out when I had to leave there.
HB: Oh, right.
MB: I had to leave because the men were coming back, you know.
HB: Yeah.
MB: Eventually. But —
HB: Well, I’ll tell you what Muriel you’ve got a good memory.
MB: Have I?
HB: Yes, you have. You have. Yeah.
MB: I’ve got a good tongue as well.
HB: It’s a shame we skated over a couple of bits I think but never mind. [laughs] We’ll, we’ll not go back to that.
MB: Oh right.
HB: Muriel can I thank you ever so much for that. It’s been really interesting. It’s a whole different aspect to what, you know to the normal sort of interviews you get and, and I really have enjoyed it. It’s been really good.
MB: Personal life.
HB: Yeah. So, if I thank you for that, Muriel.
MB: I’ve got a New Zealand button there.
HB: Sorry?
MB: I’ve got a New Zealand button there.
HB: Oh yeah.
MB: I cut it off his uniform. He wouldn’t give me his badge, cap badge so —
HB: Oh right. Ok. Well, we’ll draw a veil over that as well then. We’ve got stolen property, absent without leave.
MB: He said he wanted to take it back to New Zealand and I said, ‘Well, I want one.’ But, anyway he gave me a button in the end. He cut a button off his shirt.
HB: We’ll just have to check up on the regulations about whether or not you’re still wanted for being absent without leave. I’m going to stop the interview now. It’s, what time is it? I can’t see the time.
MB: No. No.
HB: Quarter past twelve.
MB: Is it? I don’t know. None of my clocks, oh it is. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Quarter past two so I’m going to terminate the interview and thank you very much Muriel.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Muriel Blake
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABlakeMMD180711, PBlakeMMD1801
Format
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01:18:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Muriel Blake was born in 1922 in Oakham, Rutland. Being interested in flying and aeroplanes from an early age, Muriel volunteered when her job prospects ended. Called up in 1944, she joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. Being too short for driver, and turned down the job of mechanics, she became a safety officer. Throughout her service, she was posted to RAF Waterbeach, RAF Credenhill and RAF Mepal. Muriel recalls her time service stressing unpalatable food. She elaborates on different aspects such as service relationships, parties, celebrations, guard duty and having to wake people up, and finally packing parachutes and dinghies whilst working with 75 Squadron. One of her tasks was also to collect the list of crashed and missing aircraft to know how many parachutes and dinghies had been lost on operations and had to be replaced. It was tradition on her base that aircrew who had survived baling out would return, find out who had packed their parachute and along with their thanks paid the worker a pound. A slipped a disc ended her service in 1945. Following the war, Muriel moved around to several jobs, becoming a telephonist at the post office first, before eventually moving to a fire station
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Herefordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
75 Squadron
ground personnel
military living conditions
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF Credenhill
RAF Mepal
RAF Waterbeach
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/688/10096/ABaptisteDMM170504.2.mp3
1dc27df23af9a2bfa31f201bae8fd069
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baptiste, Daphne
D M M Baptiste
D Baptiste
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Daphne Baptiste (b. 1921) and a wedding album. She worked as a civil servant in the air Ministry.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daphne Baptiste and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baptiste, DMM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Thursday the 4th of May 2017 and I’m in Epsom with Daphne Baptiste who experienced the war as a civilian and married an Army officer later on in the war. But Daphne, what are your earliest recollections of life?
DB: My earliest recollections are, date from when I was four years old and I can remember I hadn’t started school, my mother was on her knees in our little house in Becontree. She was washing the kitchen floor. She had the bucket and a mop there and was on her knees at the time and suddenly we heard two loud bangs and I rushed to her side, a four year old frightened of these two loud bangs. And I said to her, ‘What’s that? What’s that?’ And she said, ‘Shhh. Just be quiet and I will tell you in a moment.’ And that’s when I had my first history lesson and she told me about the First World War and how we now respected people who had given their lives in the First World War and remembered them on November the 11th each year to give them the respect that they deserved. That’s my earliest memory. My other earliest memory is being taken to hospital with diphtheria. Again, I was four years old and my mother had lost her own brother when he was two and a half years old with diphtheria. It was a serious illness and you can imagine how distraught the family were at the thought that I also might die from this children’s serious illness. I didn’t fortunately. Obviously. And, but I came out after seven weeks in hospital not having had any visitors other than my father standing outside the large ward window looking at me as he cycled from Becontree up to the City of London to join his fire station where he was on duty at that time. That would be 1925 I suppose and [pause] but I came out of hospital unable to walk. My parents had to hire a little old pushchair and took me away on holiday with the rest of the family and, and I soon regained the ability to walk but just for a while that was the result of diphtheria.
CB: So, what did your father do as a job?
DB: My father was a fireman. He had been in the Navy for two years at the start of the First World War. He’d been invalided out with an injury. He’d been crushed by some machinery I think in the engine room and invalided out. He wanted to marry my mother. They had met and he wanted to marry her and she wouldn’t marry him until he had a job so he joined the London Fire Brigade. She wouldn’t marry him still until her brother could come home from the Army. This was First World War. Her brother was on the Somme, fighting in the Somme and she used to tell us when we were children that she prayed every night of her life that her brother would get a blighty one which meant a slight wound. A small wound. Enough to bring him home. And he did. He was wounded in the arm and he came home and he was able to be, he was able to give her away at her wedding to my father. So, and my father stayed in the London Fire Brigade all through the war. The First World War. Rescued children from a burning building. We think probably set on fire by German Zeppelins. We’re not sure about that but they were certainly active at that time and he rescued six children one by one from this burning building. The adults and children on the ground floor were killed in that fire but he managed to get six children out from the first floor and was given the medal of the OBE after the First World War in recognition of bravery, gallantry which was a cause of pride in the family at the time.
CB: So then in the interwar years while you and your siblings were young what was happening then?
DB: With my father and his career? He stayed in the Fire Service and I can’t think which particular year that would be, nineteen, late 1920s possibly he was promoted to be in charge of a fire station. And because he had had even two years experience in the Navy they gave him the Fire Boat Station at Battersea Bridge. On the corner of Battersea Bridge, and so we the family all moved to Battersea. Lived on the bridge, on the corner of the bridge there and had opportunities to go on the fire boats and see what went on there. And then seven years after that he, a new Fire Brigade Headquarters was built just by Lambeth Bridge opposite Millbank and the Houses of Parliament and he was given command of the fire boats there and remained there until his retirement. Right through the war he was in charge of the fire boats from Westminster to Chiswick. Had a very lively war. They were not only trying to deal with fires along by the riverside, the docks and, and the oil fires but also they were often called out to relay water from the Thames even up to two miles because the engines couldn’t always get through the roads. The roads were too heavily bombed. And so that certainly happened when there were fires at Piccadilly. I think that was possibly one that a couple of miles of hose laying. I suppose a man could get through guiding the hoses through. I’m not sure how it happened but [pause] but it did happen. And he was allowed to retire, 1944 when the worst of the raids were over although we were still having V-1 and V-2 raids but not so frequently as during the war we had raids every night. And when we came up out of the shelters of the Fire Brigade Headquarters the shelters were simply bunk beds that were provided for us in the basement and we would see the firemen running through the basement to where ever their appliance was. Their, their engines or whatever. We thought that was quite exciting when we were teenagers I suppose, one has to admit. But, but it was, it was a very lively time. We understood that because the Fire Brigade Headquarters had been built on a raft, I think that’s a building term, right by the river every time bombs fell in the river and they did, they were dropped in the river. That was a guiding light for German bombers very often especially if there was a moon and bombs would be dropped in the river and the building, the whole building, nine floors would shake but we didn’t ever have one broken window because it just moved. The vibration.
CB: So, he was looking after the river between Westminster and Chiswick.
DB: Yes.
CB: A lot of the bombing was further east.
DB: Oh yes.
CB: To what extent was he drawn in to that?
DB: Oh yes. In fact, he, no this is going back through the war. He almost went to Dunkirk but the Fire Brigade Headquarters people decided that they would send over to Dunkirk the fire boats as far as Blackfriars or Cherry Garden. I’m not sure which was the final one. But that they must retain some fire boats in London in case bombing started there. It hadn’t started there then and so my father wasn’t sent there but, but certainly he was at the docks, he was at the oil fires and, and where ever they were called upon to go and they very often drew all the fire engines and fire boats to all over different parts of London. I can remember there was Raphael Tuck’s Christmas Greetings Cards building next to us. Next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters. That was burned to the ground and people could be quite rude about that and say it was next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters what were they doing when that building was on fire? But every engine was out, every fire boat was out dealing with fires at different places. They certainly were called upon to travel quite widely in, in and around London.
CB: So which floor were you on? Living.
DB: We lived on the sixth floor. Sixth floor. There were nine floors all together and the night of the very big City fire my sister and I went up on to the roof, that’s above the ninth floor and looked across to the city and we could see the whole of St Paul’s Cathedral surrounded by flames there. The city had suffered very much in that. In that raid. And the only firemen left in the headquarters were a few, no engines again but they were up on the roof with stirrup pumps and buckets and as incendiary bombs fell on the roof they would go and put them out from their stirrup pumps and buckets. Put the fires out before they could get a hold on the building.
CB: And as children what did you, how did you feel about this huge perspective of fire?
DB: This was before the war, you mean?
CB: No. In the war.
DB: In the war.
CB: So, you’re watching. You’re watching the fires burning.
DB: Well, children. You see I was seventeen, eighteen, upwards then.
CB: Yeah.
DB: My sister was two years younger. A year and eight months —
CB: Yeah.
DB: Younger than I was. And you didn’t enjoy it. I used to think to myself if we survive all this I’ll never grumble about anything ever again. Well, of course I did. I have [laughs] But, but that was how you felt at the time. You didn’t know whether you would survive the night. You didn’t know whether you might be surrounded by fire even where you lived. Certainly, when I worked in the Air Ministry in London and I did first aid duty for the Air Ministry and was called out to raids. We took shelter probably once every two weeks. Slept in the basement again with these huge pipes that supplied water I think to the whole building and I used to wonder and was frightened at the thought of it. What would happen if the building was bombed and those pipes burst and we would be down there? What would happen to us? Yes. You were quite frightened but nevertheless you just had to get on with whatever was needed. I can remember coming up in the mornings and walking across rubble from some of the bombed buildings. It wasn’t, it was a difficult time to live but somehow you were given the strength to get on and do what you had to do. And we were very relieved when the time came that the bombing started, when it stopped every night even if you had one night’s rest you were thankful. And then after a break of course when the V-1s started and that was another different experience.
CB: 1944. Yeah.
DB: And they were still coming over to our country even when my husband had taken part in the Normandy landings and was wounded and came home. That was still going on. And then later on I was working when the first rocket, the first V-2 fell. I think that was in Chancery Lane. I was working in High Holborn in another Air Ministry building and I think that fell in Chancery Lane not that far away. It didn’t do us any, it didn’t do our building any damage but we were quietly working and suddenly heard this tremendous bang. It was a loud bang when the first rockets came over and, because we didn’t know what it was. And then you gradually began to, the news percolated through that it was the Germans latest weapon of war and, and we had many of them after that. That was 1944/45, I suppose. Going towards the end of the war.
CB: Going back to your father and the early stages of the war Dunkirk was the end of May, early June 1940. Then the bombing started seriously in London in the autumn.
DB: Yes. September.
CB: So, to what extent did your father describe what he was doing fighting the fires?
DB: He didn’t really talk a lot about of it at home. He was very very tired because it was constant. It was every night. At the beginning of the bombing he was out for three days and nights without sleep and because he was the officer in charge all his men came and went, did their day duty or their night duty and then went home and had a break. But for those first three days and nights he was on the fire boat the whole time and I think he was going to be going out again and my mother was absolutely distraught about that and went to see the chief officer [laughs] and said, ‘You can’t send him out again.’ And he didn’t. He gave him a night’s leave to come home and sleep and I suppose a subordinate officer took over. But then it happened again. Every, every night but at least a break in between and I mean we did hear over the years different things that might happen but, but he didn’t ever go in to any detail. Whether he thought it would be distressing for us. We would hear the buildings that he’d been to like Piccadilly and relaying hoses. We would hear that sort of information but nothing, nothing of the suffering. We would hear if any of his men had been killed. One or two I think were sent overboard from the boat in to the river and were not always able to be rescued although they could all swim. But, but no. We didn’t hear a lot about the suffering from my father.
CB: But the loss rate of civilians and of fire crews was quite considerable.
DB: Certainly, all the land crews I think maybe the land crews did have a greater number of casualties than the Fire Boat crews because some who might have been knocked in to the river would have been able to swim to the shore and be rescued. However, that was. But land crews, yes my own brother was a fireman stationed in the East End of London and the East End suffered very heavily. And one night there was bombs were dropped and I think it was a laundry fire and he, I think all the generator boxes were blown up all down the street that he was in, helping to put out the fires and he was blown in to the middle of the road and he, every bone in his foot, in one foot was broken and he spent the next year in hospital. The Fire Brigade or the Ministry of Defence, whatever it was then were trying out a new type of treatment that they had discovered through the Spanish Civil War where they had discovered people injured by the roadside who not been able to be rescued for a long time and their wounds had healed in their own gangrene. And my brother’s foot went gangrenous and he was taken in to hospital at Ripley in Surrey and they tried this, this treatment on him putting plasters on, I think once a month. However long it was. Leaving it on. And those wounds were left in their own gangrene and he had to be moved in to his own ward because his wounds and what came from his wounds was affecting the throats of other patients and so he was put in a ward on his own. And, and those plasters were put on for a year and then at the end of the year the doctors said to my parents because he wasn’t married, my brother, he was still at home and they said, ‘Now, your son’s wounds have healed but if we leave things as they are he’s going to be more of a cripple with that foot than without it. So we want you to make the decision, you and your son whether he should have that foot removed.’ And my brother was engaged to be married at the time so the fiancé was brought in to that too and my brother did decide to have the foot just below the knee. His leg was taken off and, which was very sad. It left him disabled of course for the rest of his life but —
CB: So, just putting that in to context the Spanish Civil War was 1936 to ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: Were there people from the civil war who were part of the medical staff?
DB: I wouldn’t know. I don’t know that. No. I’ve no idea. We just heard that it was a discovery that they were trying out for raid conditions in our own country.
CB: Yes.
DB: But instead of them just being left by the roadside these people who were injured he was in hospital and being supervised.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Looked at all the time. But it was a strange, well, it was a very strange experience. And my sister and I used to cycle from Lambeth Bridge to Ripley to go and visit him. And at one stage there were lads who had been injured as part of aircrew in the same hospital. I don’t know quite how that happened but they were put out in the open air in the summer weather. I think they had injuries where they felt fresh air was beneficial to them. But, but for my brother that was the end of his war.
CB: Yes. This is before McIndoe really got going.
DB: Yes. Yes. Well, that was later. That was penicillin, wasn’t it?
CB: Well —
DB: Yeah. Fleming and McIndoe.
CB: No. But this is to do with the burns really.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So, going back to your father with the boats.
DB: Yeah.
CB: You talked about the sorts of fires including oil.
DB: Yes.
CB: So, what was the real problem with boats? Was oil the real danger that caused a lot of concern. Burning on the surface of the water.
DB: I think. Well, I think it was because they, possibly it was more relaying of hoses. I mean there were obviously fire engines around because this was Shell Haven. Thames Haven and Shell Haven.
CB: Right.
DB: But certainly, I don’t know how near they got to those. But it might have been in a hose laying capacity. I really don’t know all that.
CB: Okay. So, you were born in 1921.
DB: Yes.
CB: At the end of the year. You decided, at what age did you leave school?
DB: I left school when I was just seventeen.
CB: Right.
DB: I’d gone in to the sixth form. I’d done one term in the sixth form but decided it was an unsettled world. We hadn’t, hadn’t started the war but, but I didn’t want to carry on with education. I wanted to go out to work but and so I took the Civil Service exam. But I also started at St George’s College, Red Lion Square to get more qualifications and hoped to get in to the executive grade of the Civil Service and perhaps from then to the administrative. But I would have settled for the executive I think then. But of course, the war started and they closed all of those institutions for a while. They opened them later but at that time I was looking ahead to marriage and family and didn’t really, and wouldn’t have continued with education.
CB: But you said you joined in January ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: The Civil Service.
DB: Yes.
CB: What made you choose A) the Civil Service and, B) the Air Ministry particularly?
DB: Well, you know in those days it wasn’t the affluent society that it became later and you always felt that security was the big thing and the Civil Service had a very good reputation. You reckoned that the Civil Service had slightly higher wages than other types of work. That it was interesting work. Administration. All of those things appealed to me. My parents were not affluent. We had security and the Civil Service was another, it was a secure future. You felt you were paving the way to a secure future for yourself and I liked administration. I wanted to do that. I had to put down if I had a preference for any department what would it be and I put down the Civil Service. I put down one other, I can’t think what that one was now because I thought the Civil Service Air Ministry would be a particularly interesting job. The, the Air Force was only really just growing at that time. And, and that I felt would be good and that I might have time, might have the opportunity of going abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. What I didn’t know was that in those days they didn’t send young women abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. So I wouldn’t have had those opportunities. But the war started anyway and that, that put an end to that. But yes, I felt that would be an interesting life.
CB: And how did they train you to begin with?
DB: Oh, you were put in to a department and under your superior officer. He gave you a sort of training but you, you started work. I mean it was quite a modest job. It was a clerical officer and as I say I hoped to get to be an executive officer quite soon because you could take the exams quite quickly. The internal exams. But, but everything changed with the onset of war. But, but you were working straightaway on, on your own work. I think as I stayed with them for a year or two I think my particular responsibility was examining negotiations and agreements for providing water supplies and sewerage disposal facilities for Air Force stations all over the country. That could be big airfields, it could be small premises and so you were dealing with, corresponding with supply authorities for those facilities and also for councils if the councils were involved. Borough councils, county councils, whatever. So, you were dealing with those authorities all the time. So, I got to know a lot about the different airfields. All the names of them. And even to this day when I hear the name of an Air Force station that still exists I immediately think of the size of the file. It might be like that. Bovingdon. All sorts of them all over the country or down to small premises like that.
CB: And the airfields themselves were, they were building them brand new.
DB: Some of them. But some of them were old Air Force stations from before the war. Yes. But a lot of them were new. The thick ones tended to be the older ones. And certainly, all of East Anglia was like one big airfield.
CB: Where was this run from?
DB: Where was —
CB: Where was this office of yours?
DB: The first year of the war I was in Harrogate. We were evacuated to Harrogate. To the Ladies’ College. We worked in Ladies’ College at Harrogate. They evacuated the Ladies’ College pupils to a safer place in the country they thought but they gave it to us, the Air Ministry. And really Harrogate was filled with civil servants and Air Force personnel and we had a social life up there. I was billeted with a railway family up there. And when I, when the raids started and we weren’t getting any news of how our families were faring back in London and I put in for the transfer back home the man of the house where I was billeted, who was a senior engine driver on the LNER railway, he said, ‘Would you like a ride on the footplate?’ I said, ‘Yes please.’ So he gave me a ride on the footplate from Harrogate to Knaresborough, a little local village up there which was exciting for me. And then I came back to London but, and in Harrogate they were very kind, the people we were billeted with. And one day the air raid sirens went. Well, so that must have been just at the start of the raids, I think. Well, nobody ever expected Harrogate to suffer any air raids but the lady of the house, well it must have been a weekend because the lady of the house grabbed hold of the three of us girls, seventeen year olds, and said, ‘Come under the stairs. Come under the stairs.’ And she dragged us under the stairs because she said that was the strongest part of the house. A very modest little house. And dragged us under there and I think there were three bombs dropped from one aircraft in the grounds of a hotel I think up in Harrogate. And I think that was, they were the only bombs that I think Harrogate had during the war but it certainly created excitement at the time.
CB: So, you got back to London but how? How did you convince them to send you back to London?
DB: Well, I just said my family were here and where they lived right by Lambeth Bridge and the centre of all the bombing. That it took five days for us to get letters or to be able to make a phone call. We couldn’t make a phone call home and I said that, you know I wanted to be back with the family. Hopefully to work in the Air Ministry in London. Of course, there was some of the Air Ministry in London you see. It was that the I went to [pause] now was it Ajax House? Victory House? One of the big houses in the Kingsway I went to first of all and travelled to work daily. Bus or tram or whatever it was. They didn’t question it.
CB: You were billeted with your parents when you were in London then. You lived at home.
DB: Living at home. They didn’t call that billeted [laughs]. But yes, and that was when we had all of the bunk beds in the basement of the Headquarters and [pause] and didn’t know what we would find when we got up in the morning. Whether it would be rubble as I say. We often did walk over rubble in different parts of London. We got to work. I mean I think probably the hours were a bit intermittent. It depended how long it took us to get to, to work. I think there was still a tramway that went underground up to the Kingsway. Near Bush House.
CB: Yeah.
DB: And —
CB: It’s still used. The tunnel.
DB: It’s still used.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. The roadway.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So you didn’t use the tube because of the —
DB: No.
CB: The roadway and the bus was more convenient.
DB: Well, there wasn’t, the nearest tube to us was Westminster tube station which would have meant walking over the bridge and to the station which was right by the Houses of Parliament.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Big Ben. And that would have taken longer I suppose. We could get buses outside the Headquarters. Buses ran from Albert Embankment there right through to, to the West End. To the City.
CB: There’s a classic picture of the Blitz with a bus in a big crater. Did you see that sort of damage?
DB: I don’t know that I saw that. I remember hearing about it. We had friends. Now, this man was in the police force and he was, you know he had a reasonably responsible job in the police force and I think he lived in Balham and he was out overnight with the raids happening and got back home in the morning off duty to find that his wife and three daughters had been killed. Their house had been bombed and I think that was when Balham had quite a lot of bombing. That part of London. And I think the tube station at Balham, I think a bomb went down the shaft to it. I have a feeling.
CB: A ventilation shaft. Yes.
DB: Was that right?
CB: Yes.
DB: Yeah. And [pause] Yes. There were some horrific incidents. That must have been awful for him.
CB: When you were in Harrogate you were doing your airfield work but what did you do when you returned to London?
DB: Well, I was trying to work out [pause] yes, because it must have been a different branch. It might, it might even be that that part came because I’d been in the Air Ministry for a year before I came back when the raids started. And it may even be that I started with something smaller in Harrogate and took on the airfield work when I came back. I’m not, really not too sure about that now. No. I can’t think.
CB: What sort of people were working with you?
DB: What —?
CB: Sort of people were working with you?
DB: Oh, well, they were mainly young women and middle-aged women and men. But we also had, I remember there was one young man who was about twenty eight and he was a conscientious objector. So he was given leave to not be part of the armed services but I think he had to do nine months in prison for that. But I know there was quite strong feeling because people used to feel is this fair because he is showing what he can do in the civilian job and therefore he will have an advantage when the men in the services come back home. There were all sorts of feelings about conscientious objection, that sort of thing during the war. If there were people in reserved occupations. They would call them reserved occupations. He was a nice enough chap and if he was, if he was sincere in what he believed you know you couldn’t blame him but but the people there who had loved ones fighting in the active services did feel strongly about it.
CB: So, did this effectively be expressed as abuse?
DB: Oh, they would talk. I don’t know how much they expressed it to him but certainly they would talk about it to one another and say how they felt about their own loved ones being away, in danger, losing perhaps seniority for when they came back and that would affect their promotion. Yes. There were prejudices.
CB: Did he describe any experiences of his own of people?
DB: I think he was a bit of a loner.
CB: Criticising him.
DB: He was a bit of a loner, I think. For those reasons really.
CB: And did he do extra tasks like fire watching?
DB: Did he or did I?
CB: Did he?
DB: Did he? Not that I’m aware of. I did. I did fire watching in Harrogate and I did first aid of course in London. I did fire watching on the roof of the Air Ministry. The Ladies’ College when we were in Harrogate. I thought that was the thing to do because my father and my brother were in the Fire Service. But when we came back to London I wanted to do first aid and I did British Red Cross and St John’s Ambulance courses in order to help me to do that.
CB: And then to what extent did you put that into action?
DB: Well, I, I didn’t have to do any serious dressing of wounds or anything. I think bandaging and as I say I saw this one really nasty incident. But they drew more than one first aid party to them in case people couldn’t get through obstruction in the roads. And we were the second party to get there on this occasion and there were people just ahead of me already dealing with the wounded but that was where I was standing behind ready to take over. For instance, if those people had fainted or anything in their, you know treatment of the injured. And that was where I did see the open head wound. Very dark wounds of this one particular lady and I did hear afterwards that she had died and I wasn’t surprised. She looked, she was unconscious but I didn’t actually have to deal with it myself.
CB: What sort of wound was it?
DB: Open. The whole of the head was open.
CB: Blown the back of the head had it? Yeah. And how did you feel about that?
DB: How did I feel about it? I just felt at the time I wasn’t capable of thinking. I was waiting to see if I was going to be needed. But afterwards even during those days I thought how awful that young women like me or anybody had got to see that because it, it was pretty awful.
CB: The secondary shock caught up with you. We’ll pause just for a mo.
[recording paused]
DB: I was thinking just now when you said, you know, you’re doing alright I thought if I had been the age or near the age that I am now when those, some of those things happened I would have probably taken more in. Be able to interpret them in a different way. It very much relates to the age that you are at the time and the experiences you’ve had previously. So that you don’t quite know what to expect I should think when you are, you are doing all these interviews. But, and, and I don’t know whether I am, whether I am interpreting everything correctly. I’m, I’m trying to be totally honest.
CB: Well, it’s the recall that is important.
DB: Yes.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CB: We want to know.
DB: Yes.
CB: How you felt about it.
DB: Yes, well that —
CB: As you remember feeling about it.
DB: That’s what I’m trying —
CB: Yeah.
DB: To do as I go.
CB: In today’s perspective.
DB: And it’s a long time.
CB: Yes.
DB: It’s a long time ago.
Other: It is a long time.
DB: But —
Other: I think it’s fantastic that you remember.
DB: Well —
Other: Absolutely fantastic. I can’t always remember last week.
DB: Well, no but that’s true. They say that don’t they? The short term memory.
Other: Yeah. Goes.
DB: I find now that I can lose a name. The name of a person, name of a place.
Other: Yes.
DB: I can’t just grab hold of it straightaway.
Other: Would you like another cup of tea now?
DB: No.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve covered a lot of things but what I’d like to do is just to step back in a way because —
DB: Yes.
CB: I mentioned early on I’d like to know what your education was and how that worked and then how that impinged on your career so, what, what did you do when you got in to the more senior part of education?
DB: Well, I was never very senior because I went in as quite a lowly level of clerical officer intending to take the examinations.
CB: No, but at school.
DB: Yes. This was at school. But when I was at, it depends really where you want me to start.
CB: Okay.
DB: I went to a London Elementary School. From there I took the Junior County Examination. I passed at a high level but elected not to take up those top grammar Schools. Went to the normal London Grammar School. It was a grammar school in Clapham and and worked for matriculation examinations at sixteen, the equivalent of GCSEs now, I suppose and passed those. And went in to the sixth form intending to do what was called Higher Schools Examinations then but had decided whether it was anything to do with the world being very unsettled, it was the time of Munich and all of those things. I don’t really know. But I decided I didn’t want the lengthy education. That I would go out to work. Chose the Civil Service and, and would work my way up within the Civil Service. Now, when I was at school I was quite able at the academic studies and at sport so I could have gone either way at school. It was a good education. It was a good grammar school. Also, when I was at school I did have the opportunity of sitting for a scholarship. Just for a Saturday morning scholarship to Trinity College of Music and I passed that and I used to travel as a ten year old actually on the bus from Battersea Bridge to Hyde Park Corner, change the bus at Hyde Park Corner. Everybody worked Saturday mornings in those days so with all of the working population I would then get the bus and go up to Selfridges, walk down beside Selfridges to Trinity College of Music and did three years of music education there. It was mainly piano and theory. I didn’t do the singing there. I did that later on when I was older when I wanted to do singing tuition and did that and in my life have done quite a bit of singing. That was my interest. Coming back from Trinity College of Music, Saturday about 1 o’clock all of the crowds coming home from work in the morning it was a real scrum at Hyde Park Corner where I had to change buses. No queuing for buses in those days. That didn’t happen until the war. So, everybody was rushing for their bus at Hyde Park Corner. There was quite a lot of elbowing as I remember but, and do you know you’d hesitate these days to let your ten year old do that sort of journey in London on her own. There was one other little girl that, we were often together. But that’s the way it was. We did that journey on our own and got back for the rest of Saturday to my home by the bridge. My mother who had thought when my father got his own fire station command was going to have a nice country station like Streatham, she thought. That’s not so countrified now I believe, because we had Phillips Paper Mills one side of the road and Morgan Crucible Chemical Company the other side of the road. Down a side road. So we were really right in the heart of London and it was actually at, when I lived at Battersea Fire Station there that I met my husband in the church youth group. I was fourteen, he was fifteen and we weren’t boy and girlfriend then. In fact, I think we both had other eyes for other boys and girls but it was a good healthy start to to growing up and, and we kept in touch. We kept in touch when I was at Harrogate. He was at his OTC, Officer’s Training Corps at his school. He went to Sir Walter St John School in Battersea and and did his training for OTC and therefore he went into the Army when he finally left school and we got to the wartime years. And first of all they sent him to the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry. Then they picked him up for, for Sandhurst and he did his training at Sandhurst. Wasn’t the lengthy training they do now at Sandhurst but that’s where he met and it was while he was there that he came home on leave, asked if he could stay with my parents. His mother had already moved to the West Country with her husband. And my parents didn’t know what to say. I didn’t know what to say. I wasn’t in love with him at the time [laughs] And, but anyway they said, ‘Oh, yes. We can’t refuse him.’ And so he came and stayed with us for his leave and that was where our life story began. Our love story began if you like. My father sent one of his men to Victoria Station with me to pick up my husband. We went back to the Fire Brigade Headquarters and he stayed there with us and, and that was it. That was the future assured.
CB: So, then he, in his Army experiences he then landed at D-Day.
DB: Yes.
CB: What happened there?
DB: He was, he was drafted to the Lincolnshire Regiment. Really, he chose that because he was at Sandhurst with a Lincolnshire boy, man and they talked about what they would put down as their first choice when they left Sandhurst and my husband didn’t know. My husband was born in Canada of an American father and, and met the mother in the First World War. That, and that was how Don came, they went back to Canada and Don was born in Canada. But this young man that he trained at Sandhurst with said, ‘Well, why, if you don’t know what to choose why don’t you put down for Lincoln’s Regiment? He said, ‘I’m going to put that down because it’s my home county and we could stay together, you know, the rest of the war.’ So, Don said, ‘Yes. Alright. I’ll do that. That’s as good as any regiment.’ So, he put down for the Lincolnshire Regiment and they were drafted to different battalions and never met again the rest of the war. He didn’t even know if he survived the war. But of course, my husband made many friends in the Lincolnshire Regiment during the war. And in fact we went to most of the Lincolnshire Regiment reunions after the war which was why when we were talking I said to you we went to most of the reunions every September after and through the war and went to a number of reunions in Normandy. When he was drafted to the battalion, second battalion the Lincolnshire Regiment he did normal infantry training with his company and then he said to me that they wanted to send him on this intelligence course at the School of Military Intelligence at Matlock, I think it was. And so he went to Matlock. I was on holiday with my parents and my sister in Devonshire in 1943 and we had become engaged by then, Don and I and expected to be engaged for possibly three or four years. Wait for the war to finish. We didn’t even have the Second Front established then but we waited. We would wait for the war to finish. He would get established in civilian life and so we would have to be engaged a long time. Well, he started at the School of Military Intelligence and I received this letter when we were on holiday in Woolacombe and the letter said, ‘If I pass this course I will get my third pip, be a captain. And I’d like us to be married before I go abroad.’ And I thought what on earth am I going to say to my parents? They think we’re going to be engaged for four years. So, I spoke to my mother first. I thought she would be the easier one and she said, ‘I don’t know what your father will say.’ [laughs] Spoke to my father and he said, ‘Ridiculous.’ But they all rallied around, you saw the picture of the wedding and gave me coupons for my trousseau. And we had a wedding and a wedding reception and photographs. Everything as I say except for wedding bells which we couldn’t have. Then of course, within nine months of that marriage he had landed in Norway, err in Normandy. I’ve got to gather my thoughts. And so, and many experiences stem from that. But we survived. We survived the war. We were the lucky ones.
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: Sorry?
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: They were about half a mile inland, if that. A quiet road. That was where they established their Brigade Headquarters. As I say he was brigade intelligence officer and he was, he’d had to go with the brigadier inland to the village of Herouville [?] This was where they landed. Herouville.[?] But the village itself was about a mile inland and they’d established that, the regiment had got that far and they established a Divisional Headquarters in a big office there next to the church and Don had gone with the brigadier to sort out the next move because I think German Panzer divisions were moving up to where they were and they were going to have to change all their moves. Make a different strategy. He came, he went up in the scout car, they came back in the scout car. Don stayed with his little band of brigade IO people telling them the next plans. What they’d got to do next. And it was while they were sitting there in a little dip in the roadway that this either mortar fire or artillery fire there’s some question now about which it was. They, we, we always understood it was mortar fire three hundred and fifty yards away but now there’s some suggestion that it may have been artillery fire. Whichever it was it landed in the midst of them, this little band of I think a dozen of them, this brigade IO headquarters and half a dozen of them were killed and half a dozen were wounded. The brigadier was one of those who was wounded too. And we kept in touch with him after the war. We saw them every time we went to Scotland. He was in the Scottish part of the Third Division. This was the Third Infantry Division and [pause] but of course it meant Don was put in the assembly area for bringing back to England. Did I tell you that story about the medical officer? The medical officer came round, dressed his wounds which were all leg including the femur, fractured femur and he put him back with others who were also wounded and said to the medical orderly, ‘I want you to take this officer down to the beach tonight for embarkation in the morning back to England.’ And the medical orderly got it wrong and took the man next to my husband down to the beach that night. The medical officer came back and said, ‘You’ve taken the wrong man down. Never mind. Leave it now but get him down first thing in the morning. I want him on that.’ On the, on the ships. So in the night, that night the German bombers came over, strafed the beach and all of those including the man next to Don, all of those who were down on the beach were killed. But Don wasn’t killed so, but taken down the next morning. So, the next morning the small ships came in and took these officers and people who, including German prisoners who were there on to the small ships and the small ships were going out in to the bay, the bigger part of the bay to the big ships to get them back to England. While they were on the small ships German bombers came over, Stuka bombers this was, came over and started dive bombing the small ships to stop them getting out to the big ships. The big ships who already had their, you know thingummies to get them on board that was already down but they had to put up these big gates. And in the meantime, the small ships which were being piloted by men of the, of the Third Division, and it was a little corporal and Don said he was absolutely wonderful because he would watch these Stuka, Stuka bombers coming and getting to the top and when they got to the top they started dive bombing. And as soon as the little corporal saw that he put the tiller hard over and the bomb would fall one side of them. They would come around again, go up again and as soon as they got to the top they would start dive bombing and the little corporal put the wheel hard over the other side. It fell the other side of the ship. He said, ‘If he did that once he did it twenty times and saved our lives.’ Including the lives of the German prisoners. But then they went away. The dive bombers went away and they were able to get the little ships out to the big ships and get them back to England. But, so he had about three escapes all together. Once with the Canadian officer. Once with the assembly area.
CB: How long was his convalescence?
DB: Well, he was in hospital six months but he was given, his leg, it was on traction and subject to dive bombing by wasps he always said. Wasps which kept coming round and dive bombing. Picking up the scent of all that was going on with his leg. But anyway, after two months and he was having physiotherapy and the doctors came up and said, ‘Sir, you are not exercising your leg enough. It’s not healing quickly enough.’ And my husband said, ‘I’m doing as far as I can. I cannot bend it further.’ ‘Well, you’ll have to try it.’ And my husband finally convinced them that he was doing as much as he could. So they decided to give him x-rays again. They took him out to x-ray him and found that the spike of his broken femur was sticking in a muscle. That’s why he couldn’t move it.
CB: Jeez.
DB: So, convinced they took him to the operating theatre again and cut off that spike and of course he had to start healing all over again and that took another three to four months. That’s why he was in hospital so long. But that was the only, well sort of, I suppose it was a sort of a convalescence. And I can’t remember when he was actually posted to Nottingham but from there he was posted to Nottingham and, and we were living there. That was when I left work and went up to join him. He, he rented a house that was opposite one that his uncle and aunt lived in. They happened to live in Nottingham and they said, ‘People opposite us are moving. They want to let their house. Why don’t you get Daphne up here?’ Which we did. So that was the end of my career and I was what? Twenty three then. Whatever it was. He was twenty four. And we were up there when the atom bombs were dropped and that brought a very quick end to the war of course. And then in that October he was posted to Cairo to do this advisory job really. And, and it was the, that next year that our son was born.
CB: How long were you in Cairo?
DB: He was in Cairo.
CB: Oh, he was.
DB: Yes. Not I. No.
CB: Right.
DB: There was no normality yet.
CB: No.
DB: That wasn’t really civilian life. He was there from October. I think it was eleven, thirteen months, I think. He went in the October and I think he came back the following month and I think he was demobbed the following November. So a year and a month.
CB: Okay.
DB: And then we were up in Blackpool. Or just north of Blackpool. He in the Civil Service. Me with our small son. He managed to get two rooms up there for us so we lived there. We were making all sorts of plans about the next summer going to the Isle of Man to see the TT races. He was very keen on the TT races on the Isle of Man so [laughs] But it didn’t happen because he took the next exam and passed that and was moved back to London. And then we stayed with my parents until we got a little house in Epsom ourselves and where we lived for seven years and then moved here and have been here ever since.
CB: That’s very good. How did you parents come to Epsom anyway?
DB: That was through this officer of, of the Lincolnshire Regiment whose parents lived in Epsom and managed the building firm. Managed. Owned the building firm that built many streets in Epsom. And that officer, John Roll was killed in Normandy in the July. He survived the first month or so but he died in the fighting in, I think it was Chateau Beauregard Wood. The woods around there. And Don wanted to see the parents to give his condolences. Talk about him. He always said John Roll was the best Christian young man he ever knew. A lovely young man, and he was engaged and he died. So Don went to see him. And I think my parents were probably looking at estate agents then to see if they could find a house that they could move to when my father did finally leave the Headquarters which he was due to leave then. And that was when Mr Roll said, ‘I have a house in Epsom that has been leased to the Epsom Fire Service and if they will let, let it, release it back to me your parents can have it to rent.’ And that’s exactly what happened. They did release it to him. Mr Roll let my parents have it, next to the park in Epsom. We lived with them until we got our own house. And that established the pattern for the future. I’m still here.
CB: Very good. Right. We’ll stop there. Thank you very much indeed.
[recording paused]
CB: Yes.
Other: You mentioned something —
CB: So, you, a couple of things to pick up on. Your first child was your son.
DB: Yes.
CB: His name is —
DB: Anthony.
CB: And then you had a daughter.
DB: Avril.
CB: Avril who’s ably —
DB: We stopped there.
CB: Avril is —
DB: We thought we’d have four.
CB: Right.
DB: And we decided to stop.
CB: Ably assisted today by David.
DB: Absolutely. He’s a treasure.
CB: Yes.
DB: He’s a treasure.
Other 2: Is it worth, I don’t know whether it’s worth mentioning or not but, but mum’s father you know I think because of what went on in the war actually got a sort of creeping paralysis disease didn’t he? I mean, I don’t know whether that’s worth mentioning or not.
CB: Right. So, what were, what —
DB: No. I don’t think so David.
CB: No.
DB: Because we did discover an earlier, his father seemed to have something like that.
Other 2: Oh, right. Right. Okay.
Other 3: It’s probably genetic.
DB: I guess it was something genetic.
Other 2: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So, so, in summary what you’re saying is that your husband was finding it more difficult to get around in later years.
DB: Not my husband. No. My father.
CB: Your father, I meant to say. I meant to say your father.
Other 2: Yes. Yes.
DB: My father did find it —
Other 2: Yes.
DB: Very difficult to get around.
CB: Yes. Yes.
Other 3: From his early fifties.
DB: He was very badly disabled.
Other 3: Not later. From his early fifties.
CB: Early 50s.
Other 3: From about 1963.
DB: Not the 50s. It would be ‘60 Avril. ‘60s.
CB: 60s.
DB: Yeah.
CB: And then a story about what your husband was doing in the —
DB: Well, it was —
CB: With the D-Day plans.
DB: They did a lot of training in Normandy. A lot of the invasion training. He always said he got his feet wetter off the coast of Northern Scotland than he did when he landed on D-Day.
CB: Right.
DB: Because he jumped on the back of a Sherman tank to land on the beaches at Normandy. But anyway, from Scotland getting ready for the trip across the Channel they moved down to the south of England. Hambledon. Near Hambledon Somewhere near. That part of, of the south coast and because he knew he was within reach of Epsom he thought it would be a good idea to take the, if he, if he got the weekend off duty to come up to see me. So, he borrowed a motorbike from the unit down there and rang me. Asked me if I could meet him at the Anchor Hotel. Anchor Hotel. Royal Anchor Hotel, something like that, at Liphook, Hampshire. I took the train down there, met him there and he booked a room for us. First time I’d ever slept between coloured sheets [laughs] and I promised myself when we got our own home after the war I would have coloured sheets. Silly things you do really. Anyway, we spent the weekend there and then of course he had to go back south. He told his, and I had to come back home, I was working still with the Air Ministry he told his fellow officers about this lovely weekend and he’d achieved it. Hadn’t told any of them before he came away and so a number of them tried to do the same the next weekend and the military police got to hear about it and came up and arrested them all and took them back before they’d had the weekend there [laughs] And it wasn’t Don. It wasn’t dad that had told them. That was just the way it was. I think, yes so I think there were too many of them. And within, I think it was within a couple of weeks of that time he had a motorbike again down there. This time officially. Legally. And he came up to London. He was being sent with revised plans of the Normandy invasion in an old laundry box and he’d got to get them across to Tilbury to see the generals there about the revised plans there. And so he brought these plans up in this old laundry box and we slept in my mother’s spare bedroom up there of course with this revised plans of the Normandy invasion under the bed. I mean, I wasn’t allowed to see them of course. I mean he was totally honourable in that way but I don’t know that anybody else knew that and I don’t know that you ought to put that in really [coughs] sorry.
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: Sorry?
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: You don’t think it would.
CB: No.
DB: No. Probably wouldn’t.
CB: No.
DB: Well, there we are. I’ll have to leave that to you.
CB: What was the most memorable thing about your experiences in the war?
DB: Oh, well, I I think I would have to say [pause] because they went over on the Tuesday for the landings and I didn’t hear another word until the Saturday. I didn’t know whether he was alive or dead. And on the Saturday, because it took a couple of days to get him back to England, on the Saturday I, I was at work. Again, we still worked on Saturday mornings. My sister phoned me from the Headquarters and said, ‘You’ve got a telegram, Daph.’ And straightaway she said, ‘But it’s alright.’ Because you see being a wife I had the first telegram. ‘But it’s alright,’ she said and she was choked and I was choked hearing this. She said, ‘I’ll read it to you.’ And of course, I’ve never forgotten he just said, ‘Wounded. Now in hospital. Writing. Love Don.’ But it wasn’t the official telegram. That came later. The War Office telegram. He had got the sister of the hospital, Botleys Park, he had got her to send that telegram to me as a personal telegram from him. And of course, my boss at the office packed me off home straight away. ‘Go on. You go home. You’re going home.’ And so I went home because I would obviously want to go down and visit him. I knew it was in Botleys Park. Must have. I don’t know how that news got through but anyway I went down to see him Saturday and Sunday and —
CB: Finally —
DB: That was the most memorable news because I knew he was alive.
CB: Yes.
DB: I knew I’d got a future. And he never saw active service again you see. He was —
CB: No.
DB: That was the end of his active war. Other than that as far as my own experiences perhaps in some ways seeing the horrors of the war and feeling that I would never want to do that again.
CB: During the Blitz.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And, and this lady whose head was open. And I think all of these things influence your thinking for after the war.
CB: Yes.
DB: How you feel about war itself. Now, I’ve got a young grandson who quite thinks about going in to one of the services and I think I don’t know whether I want him to. But —
CB: You mentioned the V weapons earlier. V —
DB: Yes.
CB: What was people’s reaction, first of all to the V-1s?
DB: Well, we were puzzled. We were totally puzzled. We didn’t know what it could be. What is this thing? It’s something different. Then of course very quickly they did get news out. We didn’t know. And the barrage balloons were up of course and we were hoping that they would catch these sort of aeroplanes in them and bring them down and there was more a widespread dispersal of where these things were falling. It’s where a lot of them fell around Epsom you see. It was horrible. And my own experience of being caught in that locked air raid shelter opposite St Thomas’ Hospital. I didn’t know, you never knew where they were going to fall. They were just making this noise and, until it stopped and then you didn’t know whether it was going to fall on you when it stopped. You didn’t know that it would go on a bit further over the river like it did with me. It went over the river. Or you didn’t know whether it would fall before then. There were so many question marks with all of this which left a great insecurity about life generally. You didn’t [pause] you didn’t know whether any moment might be your last moment. Your last conscious moment. Despite all that somehow you had an optimism that you would survive like I did when I saw the people lined up on the railway station saying good bye to their loved ones. I amongst them. Dispersed all along the railway station platforms. As the as the chaps went off to wherever they were stationed and you didn’t know whether that was the last time you would see them. So there was so, there was so much insecurity and yet you hoped. You carried on hoping. You believed. I believed we would come through. I believed we would win the war. Even in Harrogate where Harry Schofield the chap I was billeted with he got very depressed and I would go around singing, “It’s a Lovely Day Tomorrow.” [laughs] and I’d say ‘It’ll be alright. It’ll be alright. You’ll find out. It’ll be alright.’ But you got, you did get depressed at times when it went on, dragged on so much and you knew that the war could not finish until we had gone in to Europe. So we knew that was still ahead of us. Nothing could happen. We couldn’t plan the future until that happened and we’d retaken Europe.
CB: The V-1 you got some warning because the engine stopped. It wasn’t supposed to but that’s another matter.
DB: Yes.
CB: But the V-2 you couldn’t hear it arrive.
DB: No.
CB: Until after it had arrived.
DB: That’s right. Until the bang happened.
CB: What was the reaction to that?
DB: Well, that first one happened, as I say I was in High Holborn and it fell in Chancery Lane. And again, to begin with because it was the first you didn’t know what it was. This terrible explosion. You didn’t know whether it was an unexploded bomb suddenly going off. One that had been dropped a year before perhaps because this happened too. Bombs would suddenly explode. And so you waited for news and, and I think we again they got the news through quite quickly that it was another V weapon that the Germans had, had invented. And, and we didn’t know what, whether there would be many. Whether it was a one-off thing. We guessed there would be more. Of course, if they’d been successful in getting it that far then it must be possible for them to get more that far. They came from certain fields in, on the continent and we were told that the RAF were bombing those places and of course but they were well fortified. I think some were at, no. it was the submarines that were at la Rochelle. They were more Northern Europe —
CB: Yeah.
DB: These V weapons. You probably know but certainly we were doing our best to bomb where they were being made and, and fired from. A lot of time you spent waiting to know more. And then when you knew more waiting to hear the next development or to feel or to suffer the next development yourselves. Hoping that it wouldn’t be your loved ones. You knew it could happen where they lived or where they worked. There was, there was so much uncertainty all the time.
CB: The V-1 by nature of its arrival created more blast at surface level. The V-2 descending vertically had high penetration and had less blast. From a public point of view which one was more terrifying?
[pause]
DB: That’s difficult to answer because there seemed to be more of the V-1s. There probably were.
CB: There were.
DB: The V-2s I think were over more quickly. Therefore, they haven’t left as big an impression on me as the V-1s did. But on the other hand you shook probably with belated fear when the V-2s happened. But then you said to yourself it happened, it’s done. For that one it’s done. There may be more. But with the V-1s you went through a longer process of hearing it. Not knowing how near it was or where it would stop or where it would fall when it did stop. So, in that way I would think the V-1s were more frightening for me. It wouldn’t be the same perhaps for others.
CB: Okay. Good. I think we must stop there. Thank you very much indeed. Absolutely fascinating.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Daphne Baptiste
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaptisteDMM170504
Format
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01:22:45 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Daphne joined the Air Ministry at 17. She initially joined the Civil Service as she believed it would be a safe job with high wages. Throughout the war, she was stationed at Ladies College in Harrogate and was in charge of supplying water to many RAF stations. Daphne recalls her experience of the war as a civilian, as her father was a firefighter in London, she recalls a large amount of the Blitz. She mentions working with a young man who was a conscientious objector and describes how he was viewed at the time. During the Blitz, she was both a fire watcher and a first-aider. She also gives information regarding her family's experience during the First World War, including Zeppelin bombing. She recounts her memories of seeing St. Paul’s cathedral is surrounded by fire, seeing firefighters running to put out fires and the anxiety of not knowing if she would wake up in the morning. She recounts one or two deaths and many injuries in the fire service, including her brother, another fire-fighter, who was injured one night, and left disabled. She ends the interview by remembering marrying her husband, a Canadian born army officer, just before the D-Day landings, in which he was injured. She went a long-time without any communication, wondering if he would return.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Harrogate
England--London
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
bombing
fear
firefighting
home front
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/745/10745/ACockbillDFA171008.1.mp3
db5752c8519a065771ad0856ae6002c8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cockbill, Denis Francis Albert
D F A Cockbill
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Denis Cockbill (1924, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 195 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cockbill, DFA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LD: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Laura Dixon and the interviewee is Denis Cockbill. The interview is taking place in Penhale on the 8th of October 2017. Right. Hi Denis. Hello.
DC: Hello.
LD: Could you tell me just a bit about your early life before the Bomber Command?
DC: Before the Bomber Command.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Well, I was born in Newport.
LD: Ok.
DC: In 1924. I went to school in Newport. Went to the Grammar School. And my father worked as a, he was a clerk in the steelworks. And I had twelve months. Before, when I left this school I had twelve months. I only volunteered for the Air Force because I’d been bombed. Near misses a couple of time. I thought I’d get my own back so I joined the Air Force. So I was in the Air Training Corps. So when I was seventeen I volunteered as aircrew. I was attested because it’s quite tough, you know. You’ve got to be really fit and what have you. I passed that and they said, ‘Right. Pilot. Navigator, Air bomber.’ Which was the normal what people wanted to be. I didn’t. I wanted to be a wireless operator because my CO in the Air Training Corps was an ex-Merchant Navy radio officer. And he’d got me interested in radio. For instance when I went to the radio school they said, ‘In two or three months you’ll be doing eight words a minute.’ I could already do twelve so I walked it. So, I joined the Air Force when I was eighteen. Actually, I was three months late because the day I should have joined the Air Force I had an appendicectomy. So I was three months later. And three months on the squadron could have saved my life. Right.
LD: Ok. So a wireless operator. What do they actually do? Are you based on the plane or on the ground?
DC: Oh no. Aircrew wireless operator. Aircrew. Two years training.
LD: Oh ok.
DC: Ten months in radio school. Two hours of Morse a day.
LD: Right.
DC: You either learned it or you go around the bend and some did of course. See.
LD: Yeah.
DC: It’s like learning another language. You know, I mean I haven’t used it for donkeys years now but, you know what’s your Christian name?
LD: Dixon.
DC: No. Your Christian name.
LD: Laura.
DC: Laura.
LD: Yeah. Laura.
DC: De da de dit de da dit dit da dit da dit de da dit. That’s in Morse.
LD: Right. Ok. Wow.
DC: You don’t forget.
LD: Really. Oh, ok. So how long would a mission last for?
DC: Well, if you had a short mission two or three hours. The longest one I did was Berlin I think which was about eight and a half hours.
LD: Ok.
DC: Sat on oxygen all that time. The gunners were the worst off. I could move around. They couldn’t. They had to sit there for eight and a half hours.
LD: Wow. So, what other, apart from Berlin what other places did you go to?
DC: Actually, because I [pause] I mean I was fifteen when the war started so in three years I was eighteen. So when I joined the Air Force it was 1940, end of 1942. So the worst part was over. And I was two years training. So it wasn’t until the end of 1944 that I joined the squadron. War was over. So I was lucky. Fighter escort.
[pause]
DC: Right.
[pause – pages turning]
DC: Let me get my glasses.
LD: Ok.
[pause]
DC: That was the first trip I did which was Gelsenkirchen. It gives you the time. Take off at 0600 and we landed at [pause] no. It was five hours. That was in the, in the Ruhr and it was one of our worst trips. We were holed. We lost an engine and managed to limp back. My navigator had a bit of flak just miss him. So that was one. Then there was, then we did Kiel. And we sank, we sank the Admiral Scheer. And that was in red. It was a night trip. Then we went out again during the, on the same one on that day. That was 9th. On the 13th we went out again. Then I did Berlin. Heligoland. Bad Oldesloe.
LD: Never heard of that.
DC: That’s in the Ruhr.
LD: Oh.
DC: That’s in the Ruhr. That was what? Six hours. That was the longest trip you see was this one. No. Berlin. Where’s Berlin? [pause] Eight and a half hours at night time. And then we did, oh this was when we dropped, have you heard of the Manna raids?
LD: I was going to ask about that. Yeah.
DC: I was on that. In fact, if, of because logbooks aren’t filled in always by us. These were filled in by somebody else, “Spam Raid,” “Flour Raid.” And these were counted as operations because we were flying over enemy territory. Germans, if they’d opened up four hundred, five hundred feet high they couldn’t have missed us. And we dropped. I did, I did three I think [pause] I thought I did three. Yeah. One. Two. No. I did, I did two actually. That was Manna. Then we did Exodus which was bringing prisoners of war back from France. And we also did later on from Italy as well. So, yeah. Was that what you wanted?
LD: Yeah. Ok. So what was your relationship like with your fellow crew members?
DC: Oh excellent. It had to be because we were, we were, it was we were a team.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And if you had one bad apple in a team it doesn’t work. And the biggest problem of course was when you were crewed up. Do you know how you crewed up?
LD: No.
DC: Well, in a Lancaster there’s seven. The pilot, flight engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and two gunners. Right. So when I, when I did my, finished my training and I got my wings and everything I went to eventually I went to what they called Operational Training Unit where you crew up. You meet. You get your crew. You get the crews together. Right. And what would happen you’d get an intake of say twenty wireless operators, twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty flight engineers and forty gunners, because there were two gunners in a plane, eh. They put you in a hangar for the morning with coffee and say, ‘Right. Crew up.’ Now, you were with all these people you’d never met before. Right. And you’ve got to decide who was the best. Which is very difficult. And the best one to get of course is the pilot because he’s the one that flies it. Nobody else. If he goes we’ve had it then. And you just mingled around and get talking and actually on the way there in the train I was sat on a train with a bomb aimer and he was just joining up as well so we clicked altogether. We had two of us, see.
LD: Ok. So what would you do —
DC: And then there’s, there’s a story of the pilot. He was short of a bomb aimer. Got all the crew but a bomb aimer. And he saw the bomber walking around. He said, ‘Are you crewed up?’ And the gun aimer, he was a gunner actually, he said ‘Are you crewed up.?’ And the gunner said, ‘No.’ So the pilot said, ‘Would you like to join my crew?’ And the gunner said, ‘Yeah. Ok. But,’ he said, ‘I’m a bloody awful gunner.’ And the pilot said, ‘That’s alright. I’m a bloody awful pilot.’ [laughs] So they gelled.
LD: Yeah.
DC: You’ve got to gel.
LD: Ok. So what did you do in your spare time when you weren’t flying? As entertainment? What would you do together?
DC: The NAAFI. Cakes and buns. The cinema, which was very popular. And, yes, loafing around as normal. Playing football and probably snooker if you had a snooker table there. And if you had time to go out down to the local village. To the pub if they had any beer.
LD: Ok.
DC: That’s about it.
LD: So, can you tell me more about Operation Manna. Because —
DC: Yeah.
LD: It must have been a lot different from dropping bombs.
DC: Could you switch it off a minute?
LD: Yeah. Sure.
[recording paused]
DC: Sorry about that.
LD: No. Ok. I’ll just. You know, we’ll I keep some of that for the recorder. So —
DC: Yeah.
LD: Talk about Operation Manna. It must have felt —
DC: It should have been on the recorder, shouldn’t it? What I just told you.
LD: It was but I can repeat it anyway. Or, you know, repeat bits of it. So, you know you’re dropping food and not bombs.
DC: That’s right.
LD: That must have felt different from your usual.
DC: Oh yeah. It was brilliant. And I mean the Dutch were out. All the flags. We went out on D-Day, just before D-Day and there were orange bunting and flags and they were waving and cheering. It was fantastic. In fact there was a Manna, Manna Association. Every, once every five years we went over there and we were feted by the Dutch people. They thought we were fantastic. In fact, I got, I got a medal.
LD: Oh ok.
DC: Do you want to see it?
LD: Yeah. Sure. I’ll stop this now.
[recording paused]
LD: Course not. No. It’s interesting. So, with Operation Manna do you know how bad, how bad the people were?
DC: Oh, yes.
LD: How bad the starvation.
DC: Well, what happened, how it came is about is our troops were pushing through the low countries and they decided to leave the bulk of the Netherlands under the control of the Germans because they’d already blown some of the dykes. And the fear was if we attacked they would blow all the dykes and Holland would be completely under water. Which would be no good at all. So we left them alone. But it was one of the worst winter. A very, very bad winter. And because nothing was getting in or out including food people were starving. And eventually about over twenty thousand died of starvation. Mainly the young and the very old. Now, we knew about this and eventually we made an agreement with the Germans. Eventually. It took some time. That we would fly our aircraft at a very low height. We had to fly very low because it wasn’t on parachute. It was just double hessian sacks with the food inside. If you dropped from height it would damage. So we had to fly very low. And the agreement was reached. They agreed that we could do it. So, we did. The first trip was cancelled. Probably because some disagreement. And when we did, we flew, the gunners were already armed and when we flew over the coast you could see the Germans behind their guns. Five hundred feet. If they’d opened up they couldn’t have missed. We lost one aircraft in two weeks. We don’t know what. It just disappeared in the North Sea somewhere. But over the period we dropped almost seven thousand tons of food and saved lives.
LD: Ok.
DC: You meet a Dutchman and say Manna they love you.
LD: That’s lovely. So did you keep in touch with any comrades in the years after the bombing?
DC: I did. They’re all gone. I’m the only one left.
LD: Yeah.
DC: My last crew member was our flight engineer. He died eighteen months ago.
LD: Oh. Ok. Oh.
DC: My pilot was an Australian. We’re in, I’m in touch with his family but only recently because we were very reticent. We don’t talk. I never spoke about my war at all. My father never spoke about his war which was a great pity because I was born five, six years after the end of the First World War. My father was injured at Passchendaele. He got the military medal. We don’t know how because his records were bombed in the Blitz. And he never spoke about it, about his war, at all. I never asked him. I wished to God I did.
LD: Yeah. It’s a pity.
DC: And my son said [unclear] saying to me, ‘Write a book.’ So, what they do when I go out with them they take a tape recorder. Because the things I say now I’ve never said before.
LD: Yeah. Ok. So, with your, could you tell me about your primary school visits and the kind of reaction that you get?
DC: Oh, excellent. Excellent. What happens, they don’t do it any longer by the way but they used to bring school children in from South Wales and Gloucestershire to the Drill Hall in, they do it all over the country but here it was the Drill Hall in Chepstow. And they come for the day and the Drill Hall, the museum would be rigged out like war time kitchens and all this sort of thing. And in the Drill Hall they’d have war time posters and all the equipment and the ladies would talk to them about that. And then they’d bring them all in for us to talk to them.
LD: Ok.
DC: And some of the questions you get from these kids.
LD: Yeah.
DC: How many did you kill?
LD: I don’t know.
DC: No. They were fantastic. And it stopped now unfortunately which is a great pity. Because school people, it’s amazing how many youngsters [pause] May, if I may call you a youngster. How old are you?
LD: Twenty two.
DC: I was still flying —
LD: Oh yeah.
DC: When I was your age. You’re still to me a youngster.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And there’s a lot of things that you don’t know about my war. I didn’t know anything about the First World War. Henry the fifth in history we got up to, I think. Nothing about modern stuff at all.
LD: No.
DC: And the kids today don’t.
LD: No.
DC: I mean, I was in, we were in Hendon. The Air Museum at Hendon and, with my family. I mean we were in front of the Lancaster and I was saying about various experience. Eventually we had a whole crowd around us and one chaps said, ‘We learned more off of you than the staff.’ And one, one chap said, we said about the Americans, what they did. If it hadn’t been for the Americans we’d have lost Two World Wars. And bearing in mind they lost thirty five thousand in their Bomber Command. Even people like Clark Gable. Have you heard of Clark Gable?
LD: No.
DC: Film star.
LD: No.
DC: Well, he was, he was a gunner on them.
LD: Right. Ok.
DC: They didn’t have to. They didn’t have to.
LD: Yeah.
DC: And one of the visitors said, ‘Were the Americans in the war?’ Where’s he been?
LD: How old, so how old was he? Was just —
DC: Oh, I don’t know. I can’t remember now. Probably forty. Fifty. Something like that.
LD: Oh right. And he asked that. Oh. Ok. Can you just repeat what you said about the girl from Holland that you, that you met?
DC: Yes.
LD: Yeah. If you could just repeat what you said about that. Yes.
DC: Well, the, the talk to the schoolchildren that were in the Drill Hall in Chepstow. And the first one I did rather than talk about dropping bombs to school children I tell them about Operation Manna because I’ve got a very good print of the actual aircraft doing it. After the first one Anna phoned me up and said, ‘There’s a lady that lives in Itton, and she was at school in Holland. So can you talk together?’ So we, we met eventually. We met at the next talk. I knew who she was but she didn’t know who I was. And I had a, behind me the big print of a Lancaster dropping food covered up. So eventually this lady got up and started talking about when she was a school girl in Holland. And her father was taken away, or almost taken away. And they had no food. They had to chop up furniture and people were starving. And then one day she said big aircraft came over and instead of dropping bombs they dropped food. And out of her bag she picked out a picture she drew as a child. You know. Of an aircraft dropping food. And I was listening to all this. So when she finished I got up and I said about this lady who saw these aircraft dropping food. So I whipped the cover off the picture. I said, ‘It could have been that aircraft. And I could have been in it.’ And she burst into tears. The teachers burst into tears. And ever since then all my future talks were, we were a double act. Very good. And we still are friends.
LD: Really?
DC: I still take her to lunch now. Yeah.
LD: Oh. So she lives —
DC: She lives in Itton. Only ten miles away.
LD: Oh, lovely. Oh, ok.
DC: We never met until — never met until —
LD: Yeah.
DC: The talks. That was about twelve years ago. Thirteen years ago.
LD: But she moved here.
DC: No. She —
LD: Oh.
DC: Well, she moved here.
LD: Yeah.
DC: After the war. She was a teacher of art in [pause] in she came over as a au pair actually and finished up as a schoolteacher in Bristol. And then they liked, the Dutch like Wales.
LD: Yeah.
DC: There are a lot of visitors. They don’t like, because there’s no hills in Holland.
LD: Yeah.
DC: She bought a house in Itton, which is in the Wye Valley. Very nice.
LD: Oh, that’s lovely.
DC: That was in the 60s.
LD: Yeah. Ok. So, how do you think the Bomber Command is being perceived now. Like how —
DC: Dreadful.
LD: Right. Ok.
DC: When I get and if I meet somebody I’ve never met before and I say I was Bomber Command the usual reaction is Dresden. Which incidentally was a legitimate target. The fact that we dropped bombs and killed people. But it was all out war. No mentions are made of what the Germans did before. We started it and so when I give my talks to school children as I say I talk about when we saved lives and not when we took lives. Nobody knows about that. Which is a great pity.
LD: Yes.
DC: And you’ve got to bear in mind that Bomber Command lost more on a pro-rata basis more than any other branch of the armed forces. One in three were killed. Five thousand. Well, I think a hundred and fifty thousand flew in Bomber Command. Fifty five thousand were killed. Ten thousand prisoners of war they managed to get out which was very unusual. Five thousand killed whilst training. Can you imagine when you’re training you’ve got the aircraft and they’ve come off the front line so they’re probably clapped out to start out with. The crews on them are on a learning curve. How would you like to get on an plane in say Cardiff to fly to Spain or somewhere and they said to you, ‘By the way the pilot’s never flown this before and he’s on his own.’ Would you go?
LD: No.
DC: We had to.
LD: Yeah. Oh wow.
DC: So, a lot were killed in training you know. Of course air, air collisions as well. I mean, I mean can you imagine a night bomber raid with say eight hundred aircraft all flying with no lights.
LD: No. No. But there were no problems with your particular craft that you, do you remember any injuries or any problems?
DC: Oh yeah. Well, we got shot up on our first trip to Gelsenkirchen. Lost an engine and the shrapnel in the aircraft and a piece just missed the, the pilot was, the navigator was standing up, it went through his legs. Other than that I was lucky. I didn’t do many trips. We only did ten. Whereas to complete a tour was thirty trips and not many did that.
Other: Tell, tell Laura about the how Ted lost his position on the vic.
DC: Say that again.
Other: Tell the story of how, tell Laura the story of how Ted, your skipper lost his position on the vic and he was flying along the line in the [unclear]
DC: Oh well. That’ a long story, John.
LD: Oh, no. Yeah. Sure.
DC: Well, most of my trips which, towards the end of the war we had fighter escorts. In the olden days they had no fighter escort because they couldn’t fly that distance and it was over enemy territory. But as our troops were pushing forward we had fighter stations in France which would give us cover. So on a daylight we would have fighter escort. And on one trip we did it was a daylight trip. Probably eight hundred aircraft. And we were called a GH squadron. We flew on radar. Even in those days. One aircraft out of three had this equipment and it was, it was a cathode ray tube in front of me and you’d have two lines with two scrobes. One above. One above. And you would, we would pass back the windspeed to a base in England. They knew the height we were flying. They knew the speed we were flying. And they knew the bomb load. So they could commute, compute the exact spot where they dropped the bombs. And what they would do then they would send signals out on this cathode ray. Where these two scrobes were they were like that and they slowly get together. When they got there you dropped the bombs. There was only one aircraft had this. The other two were followers. They’d watch him. Right. So the bomb aimer, as they got nearer the bomb aimer would open the bomb doors so they’d open their bomb doors. When he dropped his bombs they dropped their bombs. So in twenty minutes you got eight hundred aircraft dropping their bombs on the target, you see. Now, we were on this one trip. We were a follower. In other words we were one of the ones behind. Right. Now, you take off. Eighteen aircraft take off on the squadron. You’ve got letters on the side of the aircraft. Right. So, you knew who your leader was so you look out for that letter aircraft to follow him. We took off and couldn’t find him in the melee. So my pilot flew down the bomber stream. There was the bomber stream. He flew down the bomber stream looking for our squadron and we couldn’t find him. So as we got near the target there was one vic of three that was slightly out of formation so he pfft underneath and he was in between. And these other aircraft were, ‘Get out. Get out.’ You know. So, we flew behind him, dropped on him, dropped bombs and then, when, when we dropped the bomb we just pushed off on our own.
LD: Wow. Yeah.
DC: So things were quite funny as well.
LD: Oh, that’s good. Yeah.
DC: That what you mean, Steve?
Other: Yeah. And the other one was the where you got the Spitfire escort coming back on that first trip. And the mid-upper —
DC: Oh, that was Gelsenkirchen. Yeah.
Other: Yeah. And you were so pleased to see them.
DC: Another, when we were shot up on this Gelsenkirchen it was a daylight and we lost an engine. We lost an engine and a half actually. Now, she’ll fly on two engines but slowly lose speed. Lose height. We were about twenty thousand. Now, it was a lovely clear blue sky and we had to leave the formation. And once you leave the formation on your own, you know you’re set up for any night fighters. Any fighters of course. So we had, I had a verey pistol above me and the instruction was that if you need assistance you fire off a green. If you are in dire problems you fire off a red. So we said to Ted, we were on our own and we had fighter, we couldn’t see them. They were way above us of course. The Typhoons and the Spitfires and the Mustangs were the best aircraft. Anyway, we said to Ted, ‘Don’t you think we ought to get some fighter escort?’ ‘No. No. We’ll be alright.’ Anyway, eventually we convinced him. I fired off a green and within twenty seconds we had two clipped wing Spits on our wingtip. And that was, the pilot hit the roof. The gunners never saw them. If they’d have been German we’d have had it. Anyway, a lovely feeling flying back with two Spits on your wing. When we got, when we got to the Channel they disappeared. That was nice that.
LD: Yes. Yeah. Ok. So, anything else before I leave? Anything you can think of. Any other stories or memories that we haven’t touched yet?
DC: No. I mean —
LD: No. Ok.
DC: It was, you know, you know I’ve told you how we crew up. And when we got back you know we had what we called the flying breakfast. But every time we took off we had bacon and egg and what have you which you couldn’t get in the wartime, see. Right. And when we got back the same thing. And the joke was you’d say to anybody opposite, ‘If you don’t come back can I have your breakfast?’
LD: Oh right.
DC: So you had a sense of humour.
LD: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true, yeah.
DC: We had a sense of humour.
LD: Yeah. Yeah.
DC: No. I know I shouldn’t say this but in some way I enjoyed it. I was young. No commitments. Flying. How many people flew in those days? I must admit when I flew first I was airsick by the way which wasn’t very clever. And when we did fighter affiliation [laughs] do you know what that is?
LD: No.
DC: Fighter affiliation is when you go up on a, on a training flight with gunners and you’re attacked by a Spitfire as if it’s a German and you take evasive action. And evasive action, if he’s seen coming from the port which is the left to you, ‘Enemy aircraft port. Corkscrew port.’ And the air, the pilot would throw the control column up, kick the control column and the aircraft would do that. And then he’d pull it up and he’d do that. So you’re doing that all the time. And if you suffer from airsick that doesn’t do any good.
LD: No.
DC: Now, the first time we did that was on a Wellington on training. And because the aircraft was very old he wasn’t allowed to do more than a thirty degree bank. In other words it would, I was sat there, I did nothing. I just sat there you see. But we couldn’t fly out without a full crew even then. But with, on the Wimpy it was gentle so I just sat there no problem. When we converted on the Lancasters and the first time I went up on the fighter affiliation I still sat there like this. I heard the aircraft, the pilot, the gunners say, ‘Corkscrew starboard,’ or port, ‘Go.’ The next thing I’m on the roof because I lost all gravity. I was on the roof. My pencils would be flying around in, there was dust in the air and when he pulled it up I couldn’t move see. And then I felt sick.’
LD: Oh no.
DC: And the elsan toilet down the back of the aircraft [laughs] So when we did, when we did future ones the pilot would call me up and say, ‘Taff, get down the elsan.’ [laughs] So, but the aircraft weren’t that wide at the bottom with two metal stanchions you see. So you go down. The elsan’s there. The rear gunner turret there. The elsan’s there. So you stand like this and you wait until you hear, you’re on the intercom. ‘Corkscrew. Port. Go.’ So immediately your legs come up so you daren’t be sick then. But you’ve got to make sure the lid of the elsan’s on [laughs] So then when he, when he pulls it up that’s the time to lift lid bluuugh. And once you’re sick you’re fine. It’s when you’re not sick.
LD: Yeah.
DC: I remember, I remember not long after the war we took what we called the Baedekers. We took the ground staff on a low level tour of the Ruhr to show them the damage we’d done. Now, on came these WAAFs with flasks of coffee and cakes and God knows what. And it was June. Just after the war.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Hot. And if you’re flying low when it’s hot you get updrafts. So we sat there. They don’t sit, they didn’t see much. They were sick all the time most of them. And I had a job to make sure I wasn’t as well.
LD: Yeah.
DC: Yeah. It was good fun.
LD: Yeah. It sounds good fun.
DC: So we enjoyed it as well.
LD: Yeah. I suppose if you’re young and you’re excited then, yeah. Ok.
DC: And of course I was commissioned eventually so I was walking around with the officer’s uniform with wings up you know. You felt good.
LD: Yeah. Ok. Well, if that’s, if there’s not anything else than I think we’re pretty much done. Ok. Well, thank you.
DC: Ok.
LD: Very good. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Denis Francis Cockbill
Creator
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Laura Dixon
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACockbillDFA171008
Format
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00:29:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Newport, Denis volunteered for the Royal Air Force as he was tired of bombing, wishing to get his own back, he joined the Air Corps at 17. Wishing to train as a wireless operator because of his interest in radio technology, he officially joined the Royal Air Force three months after his 18th birthday. Having to train for two years, Denis joined an aircrew in 1944, flying Lancasters. He attests that learning radio communication was like learning a new language and that he has never forgotten it. He recounts several operations in which he flew over enemy territory, including flying over Berlin, an operation which took eight hours. He also recalls several experiences during his time, including near-misses, as well as Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. He gives detailed information about Operation Manna, stating that he also joined the Manna Association and travelled to the Netherlands once every five years for a celebration. Denis states that his relationship with his crew was excellent and believes that it had to be because they always worked as a team. He recalls that he completed ten operations in total, but believes he was lucky to survive these, recounting a specific experience in which he was escorted by Spitfires. He admits that he rarely spoke of his war, following his father’s example of the first world war, until recently. He now invites primary school children to learn of his experiences. He continues to give combined talks about Operation Manna with a Dutch lady who survived the Second World War. He believes that the representation of Bomber Command has been terrible, naming Dresden as a legitimate target, but he also prefers to talk of saving lives through Manna and Exodus. He states that the general public does not understand Bomber Command’s losses.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
195 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
Gee
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
recruitment
Spitfire
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1005/10746/AColbeckJC170524.1.mp3
523a16a235ce2e945b8a2efc683102c5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wenham, John
J Wenham
Description
An account of the resource
46 items. An oral history interview with Joy Colbeck (b. 1923) about her brother John Wenham (1925 - 1945, 1894709 Royal Air Force) documents and a family photograph album. He flew as an air gunner but was killed in a training accident 4 January 1945. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joy Colbeck and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br /><br />Additional information on John Wenham is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/124831/ ">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wenham, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name Is Chris Brockbank and today is the 24th of May 2017 and I am in Luton with Joy Colbeck and we’re going to talk about initially Joy’s experience in the war in the Royal Navy as a Wren but principally we’re talking about the experience of her younger brother who was killed on a training flight in the RAF and, in a crash near North Marston near Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire. So, Joy, what are your earliest recollections of early life?
JC: Well, I think it was recollections were moving house. I remember the house I was born in and my brother was born in. When we were about six or seven we moved to the next road to a slightly bigger house.
CB: In Maidstone.
JC: In Maidstone. All the time my father was a second in command in the grocery shop to Mr Henry Topley, his partner. And my father was, ran the business by his hard work. Mr Topley used to wear a top hat, stand outside and take the customers to the pay desk etcetera but, but my father was the one who drove the van, and he went to all the biggest houses in our part of Kent. Castles. Boarding schools. Had to pick, to pick up the orders from the cookhouse keepers, take them back to the shop, and a fortnight later my father would drive the van and deliver them back to the big houses before all, all mass buying. And so my brother, my brother never seemed to be part of this performance because he was always two years younger than me if you know what I mean. He, he took second, played second fiddle really. He [pause] I don’t remember him. He was a Boy Scout and all the way up and on, on the, we have a photograph here of his War Memorial, my brother’s death, in the Scout camp next to Guy Gibson who was a friend of Scout Master and practicing for the —
CB: The dam’s raid.
JC: The dams.
CB: Yes.
JC: On the Scout master’s lake. In his garden. But that’s beside the point but my brother was, he did it. He, my brother for some reason and we never know, we never got to the end he, he could not read. Now, we find this, I find this extremely difficult. He was [pause] I had left school and had been to secretarial college and was working at County Hall when my brother left school, because the school became a hospital and we were in a war zone. Whatever’s the word. Not war zone, is it? It was [pause] that we were in, it was, yeah, I suppose you’d say it was a war zone in England really, and was treated as such. My father was the chief air raid warden so he knew what was going on. And my brother just got on his bicycle and followed every Spitfire that was shot down and every German plane that was shot down. That was his whole interest in life that I remember. When I used to come home from work we used to say, ‘What have you got hold of today?’ And it was a bit of plastic or something which they all sat down, this little group of boys and made a little cottage out of the, out of the plastic windows. And he didn’t have a lot of friends and when, when his school closed my mother was so worried. He was in elementary school. He couldn’t pass any grammar school at all. And his reading and writing was extremely bad, but of course nobody took much notice of it and we wondered if he was dyslexic would he have been discovered by the RAF? How on earth did he become a bomber when he couldn’t read when he was thirteen?
CB: Extraordinary.
JC: I don’t know. Nobody ever mentions it. But he was, he was a nice boy. He was a lovely boy. People liked him but he, he didn’t shine. He didn’t shine at anything. So when he left school it would have been [pause] 1941 I suppose. I was seventeen in 1941. ’42, the school would have closed and my mother just had a tutor for him and my father got him a job in the brewery next to the shop, the grocery shop. Style and Winch’s brewery. And he worked in the lab washing bottles I suppose. But I don’t know. I’ve got a big gap because I wasn’t there.
CB: So, at seventeen what did you do?
JC: At seventeen I volunteered for the Wrens.
CB: Right.
JC: I left my job at County Hall and was supposed to go in the Wrens with my best friend who as soon as we got to London said she didn’t want to go and she became a Land Girl and I became a Wren. And they put me, I had no preliminary war training whatsoever. They sent me a letter saying, and a railway ticket to report to [pause] I was just going to say Paddington. It wasn’t Paddington. To the, to go to Lowestoft to report to HMS Minos as a writer to the captain. A writer meaning a shorthand typist but the rank is writer [pause] and I wasn’t welcomed. I was the first Wren and they didn’t want me because they were regular sailors. They weren’t service, there was no conscription in to the Navy at that time so they didn’t really want the Wrens but they got them. And so by the time I would get home on a weekend’s leave all the way by train across London and back by train down to Kent there wasn’t much left of a forty eight Wren’s pass getting there, and I didn’t see a lot of my brother. All I got was that he was working at Style and Winches. He was doing quite well in, in the brewery section and the next thing was that he had volunteered. He volunteered. He wasn’t conscripted. Volunteered for the RAF. And I think I only saw him two or three times after that. I, I’m trying to think how many times I saw him back. Not a lot.
[telephone ringing]
CB: I’ll just stop there.
[recording paused]
JC: And of course then we got, we got, I got shifted from up in Norfolk back down in to London to HMS Pembroke which is all the Wrens working in London. Whitehall. And I stayed there until I went to Westcliff on Sea which was a holding base for sailors waiting for Dunkirk, not Dunkirk, for D-Day. But I spent nearly two years in London.
CB: What were you doing in London?
[pause]
CB: What were you doing in London?
JC: Well, I just worked in in offices. Office job. And —
CB: Secretarial.
JC: I also, I did one interesting thing. I, because I had worked very hard on the setting up this, I’d been promoted to leading Wren and I was working very hard on the setting up of this holding camp and we had a lot of rather important people on the staff there. And we, the whole of Westcliff on Sea Promenade and the roads adjacent to the Promenade were requisitioned as a block and the civilians were moved off. It was mostly holidays. Small hotels. Private hotels. So it wasn’t difficult but the whole lot moved off and we moved, the Navy moved in and there were four thousand sailors and about four hundred Wrens.
Other: You had your choice ma.
JC: And then I worked very hard. Very, very hard because I worked for a wonderful woman called First Officer Bowen-Jones who was quite a high up ranking officer in the Wrens and she used to push, give me lots of difficult jobs to do. And one day she called me in and she said, ‘You’ve worked very hard. I want to send you on special duties.’ And she said, she’d got a lovely smile and she said, ‘You’re going to, maybe you’ll go with Churchill on one of his ventures abroad, to one of the conferences.’ She said, ‘Go and enjoy it. Report tomorrow to the Admiralty.’ When I got to the Admiralty it was a busy, busy, busy office full of American officers and British Naval officers from all over the world. And they were all [pause] well they would sort of shuffle up. We went on the back of a Land Rover from our billets in in [pause] oh, it was a long time ago. I’ll tell you in a minute. But we assembled at 6 o’clock in our billets. We were taken by Army car to the Admiralty. They had been working all day long deciding which way they’d go. Who’d go, who went and who didn’t. And as soon as we got there at 6 o’clock in the evening, it would be about seven we got there we started and we typed all that the, you know the ships and Naval officers had learned during the day. We typed it during the night on stencils on [reniers], and then we ran them off and we did that for six weeks and we had no time off. And then we were sent back to our posts and told to keep quiet. Not to say where we’d been. Not even to our officers. And we had done the invasion of Sicily and Italy, but in fact we didn’t know it was Sicily and Italy because we didn’t know and they didn’t tell us they were going to go to Italy. They just gave us a map reference along the, along the garden and up the stairs on the, on the grids. It was all done on the grid. And it’s all boring. There you are.
CB: Right. We’ll just take a break.
[recording paused]
JC: You mean one of the AGs ones.
CB: Now, we’re just going to recap quickly on yourself because you had two interesting experiences. One, Joy early on, one experience you had early on was in Lowestoft.
JC: That’s it.
CB: What happened there?
JC: What happened there? It was a Tuesday.
CB: Yeah.
JC: I had every Tuesday off. Worked the rest of the six days. In the mornings we did our washing and sewed on our buttons, etcetera. Well, about half past one the girls, we were, we were billeted in a private hotel in the attic. There were two rooms in the attic either side of the stairs and three of them were occupied over the stairs. They didn’t work, they worked in HMS Minos 2 which was a holding base. I worked in HMS 1, which was a minesweeper base, active service. So, they knocked on the door and said, ‘Are you coming down in to Yeovil, err into Lowestoft for a cup of tea at Waller’s Restaurant because they have cream buns. So I said, ‘Yes. I think so.’ So, they said, ‘Pick you up in half an hour.’ Half an hour later it was snowing. I said, ‘I think I’ve got a cold coming and it means walking both ways to Lowestoft in the snow. I’m not coming.’ And they said, ‘Ok. We’ll go without you.’ I’d been, I decided to have a bath. I was in the bath when the claxon went. We had no air raid warning. The claxon went. Out in the garden. Get in the shelters. Hit and run raids. So we, we just went. Ran down the stairs, out the back door, got in. We’d only just got in the air raid shelter when there was the most enormous explosion and about, we just didn’t know anything about it. About half an hour later the Wren officer on duty said, ‘Wren Wenham,’ that was me, ‘Back to duty.’ So I got dressed in to my uniform and walked in to Lowestoft and the whole of Lowestoft High Street was flattened. And I’ve got a picture. I, I don’t know.
[pause]
CB: Ok. Well, we’ll look at the pictures in a minute.
JC: No, we don’t. Here it is. Here’s my whatnot.
CB: Oh, report.
Other: Yes.
JC: There they are. Digging up twenty years later.
CB: Right.
JC: But, and I went into my office and the captain said that we had to stay on duty because the bomb had fallen on the main supply department and all, all my three, and it had fallen on Waller’s Restaurant next to the Naval supply because we were all in the High Street. So bang on Waller’s and every one, I think there were, seventy were killed. So, I lost my three friends. That was, that was number one.
CB: Right. Very hard.
JC: About three weeks later I was.
CB: This was 1941.
JC: About three weeks later I was machine gunned with two other Wrens walking to our quarters along the cliffs at Lowestoft. We just got down in the, in the whatnot. You had no warnings. So, that was two. I can’t think what the third one was.
CB: Right. So, if we go now towards the end of the war there were the V-1s and V-2s. So what experience did you have?
JC: Oh yes. That was dreadful.
CB: That’s in London.
JC: I, I was, I was at Westcliff. HMS Westcliff. After D-Day they began to get rid of, the numbers went down and the places were closed. We were just a closure. In August, in August 1944 I was promoted to chief, to Wren petty officer and it meant that I had to be moved because there was no, no requirement for a petty officer in there. So I was sent to the Royal Marines at Burnham on Crouch on a single posting as petty, just as what would be called secretary to the Marine’s officers because they had a big Court of Enquiry of, of, to do with the firing of an officer. And I had to go every day and take down in shorthand the doings of the court. I don’t know whether I made a very good job of it because nobody then was interested in, in talking slowly or [laughs] even knowing how to put questions. It was very difficult. And so there I was down in Burnham on Crouch, and every Sunday morning all the Royal Marines assembled outside of the Burnham Yacht Club for Sunday morning divisions. In the middle of the second, second hymn we got this colossal blowing, and we were all flattened on to the roads. Yeah. Onto the ground. Nobody was hit. The thing, the thing exploded up in the air, away up in the air and if it hadn’t exploded we wouldn’t probably have been here I suppose. But that was the third time that and after that I couldn’t sleep. And my posting came to an end and I went to the Royal Naval College at, hospital at Chatham and I was turned out. My husband came to tell me and [pause] I was still packing up my belongings when he came back again and told me that John had died. And —
CB: This is January 1944. Your brother John.
JC: Yes. And my father had phoned my husband who was on duty and he’d been to see the captain who gave him permission to come to Burnham because there was, it was the back of beyond to tell me and take me home. And I went home and, and it was awful really when I got home because my mother and [pause] when, when I was two and a half years old I had double pneumonia, and there was no hospital. I was just, my mother cared for me. My brother was eight months old and John went to stay with my father’s sister for [pause] I’ve no idea but he was certainly away from home for three months. So my mother couldn’t see him. There was, it was a real break and —
[doorbell]
JC: It was a real break. Not very nice I suppose. I don’t know how my mother would have coped to have her baby boy taken away from her. She had to look after me at home. I had pneumonia. Pneumonia for six weeks and my father took me out on my first walk and I cried so much that he kept on walking rather than take me home, and the next day I had pneumonia again. So that, so my brother still stayed with, with Auntie May and she features in this book. So he had a real break in his parenting. I don’t suppose it would have been a very quick cut off when I had pneumonia. I mean the doctor would have come. Our doctor, he came on a horse, on a horse, horseback. Privately. And, and my father took my brother in the van and off he went. So I don’t know what effect that would have had on my brother. It must have broken my mother’s heart I think. She was a wonderful mother wasn’t she?
Other: She was a lovely lady.
JC: Lovely woman.
CB: You said, you said your brother John had difficulty with reading.
JC: Yes.
CB: Did that get linked with that experience?
JC: I don’t know. Of course, he was only eight months old. I don’t [pause] that’s the only time. I know that it was snowing and there was no ambulances available. The doctor and the, and the vicar spent three nights at our house. Did their calls in between. He was very well looked after but —
CB: We’ll just stop there again.
[recording paused]
CB: These are all very important experiences to know in the background but returning to your brother John. Returning to your brother John. He joined the RAF on the 24th err the 28th of April 1943. Well, he attested then but he was only seventeen.
JC: Yes.
CB: He started, according to the records we’ve looked at, at Number 19 ITW on the 5th of February 1944 and shortly after that he was admitted to hospital and then he was temporarily discharged and put into hospital again. He then went to a different Initial Training Wing on the 24th of April 1944 and according to the records he then had been identified as an air gunner and you mentioned his difficulty with reading and so on and it may be that that had some bearing on the selection.
JC: Yes.
CB: Of his position in the aircraft.
JC: Yes.
CB: He then went to Number 1 Air Gunnery School on the 1st of July ’44 and from there in October, the 19th of October 1944 he went to 11 OTU, Operational Training Unit which was at Westcott. Which is the point of our story.
JC: Yes.
CB: And then he was killed in the crash on the 4th.
JC: Yes.
CB: Of January 1945.
JC: Yes.
CB: So my question there is that as you were in the Navy and busy and had little opportunity of finding out what was going on, what do you understand about what he was doing and what your parents knew? What did your —
JC: You mean while he was still training?
CB: While he was in the RAF.
JC: I don’t know. You see it was such a different life. Everybody’s son was in, in the Army, The Navy or the Air Force all of the way around him. If, if you weren’t, if you weren’t in the Forces there was something funny with you and I suppose you had to, I suppose you had to accept that your son or your daughter would go off into the Army. And, take my father, he’d spent four years of his, six years of his youth, of his young life not his youth because he married during his service but they’d all experienced Army life. So it was nothing different in a way. And I think they would have accepted what was going on. That he would join. He would join up but whether they would have ever accepted that he was going to be in the Air Force I don’t know.
CB: Why did he join the RAF?
JC: Why did he join the RAF?
CB: And not the Army or the Navy.
JC: I have no idea. I have no idea.
CB: And did you have any, you saw him rarely but did you have any conversations with him?
JC: No.
CB: About his service.
JC: No. No. I had no, you see I saw so little of him. I wouldn’t like to say how many times I saw him. Definitely not during the previous year to his death did I. I was going to. I told you, it’s in my husband’s diary we were going, I was going to take my husband home to meet my parents on a weekend leave because my husband had, we were already engaged but we were going to go home. Became engaged on my twenty first birthday and so [pause] I, when it came to, it’s just written in some, about the middle of October, November we were going to, my husband was coming to spend the weekend with, and would have slept in my brother’s bed and I was going to join them and I was hit by this bomb, V-2 bomber thing. So I was in [laughs] I couldn’t go to Maidstone. So my husband went by myself to meet my parents.
CB: For the first time.
JC: I think he’d met my mother because he came, he came to my mother at Southend on my twenty first birthday when I was in sick bay for a different reason, and they had given me [pause] He had produced my engagement ring while I was in bed covered in, I had a series of boils, awful things all the way around my neck and I’d had them for about a year, and they were trying to do what they could to get rid of it in the sickbay. But they couldn’t and I was swathed up in all these bandages and my mother came on the train to celebrate my birthday and she met Gerry there and he gave me my engagement ring. There it is. There we are.
CB: Very nice. Yes.
JC: And [pause] so it was, it was so natural in a way. It was happening all the way around him.
CB: And people didn’t talk about what they did in the Forces.
JC: They didn’t talk about it.
CB: They weren’t allowed to, and they didn’t want to.
JC: And they weren’t allowed to. They didn’t have the time. They were so worn out. My father was head of the ARP and they met, we were about the only people who got an air raid, a decent air raid shelter, and we had it because our next door neighbour’s brother built the new County Hall. He was a big builder, and while he was building the big County Hall he dug the hole with his digger of our, of our air raid shelter and he built us a double deck, double brick air raid shelter in our, half in their garden, half in ours. Two doors. We were very posh. We had radio and we had electricity and, but my father came home from work he, we were, we were down there. We, we put our pyjamas on as soon as we came home from work and we went straight down and we had our tea down in the air raid shelter. My mother, of course women didn’t work so my mother, my mother looked after my father and all the people who worked for him. And as soon as my father had had his tea he became the air raid warden. So I mean he didn’t talk about, we didn’t talk about family.
Other: I think the horrors were so bad as well.
JC: Yes.
Other: People didn’t want to dwell on them.
JC: They didn’t want to. They used to say —
Other: They wanted a change in their lives.
JC: My, my brother’s friends, four boys came to Maidstone in 1939 when his father built the A20. Not the M20. The A20 over, over the hill, down into the Weald of Kent and he bought these, his four sons all at school. And my father saw the for sale notice on the house and investigated who was moving in. Met them and said, ‘I’ll be your grocer. I’ll take your cards from you.’
CB: Ration cards.
JC: The [Riccomini] family. I’d love to know what happened to the [Riccomini] boys because as far as I know only the eldest one, who had a cleft palate survived and I think my brother was, was very friendly with the second boy called Geoffrey. And I don’t know what the other two were and I wouldn’t have met them anyway but Geoffrey used to come and play in our garden, and was the same age as my brother. And to think that they could, my father knew the mother and parents. To think that he knew that there was a family losing three and his was one. It was—
Other: I see what you’re saying.
JC: I’m sorry.
CB: Very difficult.
JC: We’re getting off, aren’t we?
CB: Well, it doesn’t matter because the point in the background there is Maidstone is in the front line.
JC: Yes.
CB: Effectively closest almost —
JC: It was.
CB: To the continent.
Other: Well, it’s about —
CB: So to what extent did you suffer air raids there?
Other: [laughs] She was hit by one.
JC: Well, we didn’t really suffer any real damage but we did have an unexploded bomb come through the roof of our detached house and my mother ran. Obviously, it was in the middle of the afternoon. There were no men. My mother, when the men came home from work ran to the ARP post, and said that there was a hole in the roof and they sent, they sent a man, an ARP man to investigate and he went up inside the house on a ladder and he got stuck in the hole. In the, in the, he was a big fat man and he got stuck.
CB: In the loft hatch.
JC: And [laughs] he became [laughs] didn’t he? All our children remembered the second world war was the man who got stuck in the hole. We had, we had behind our house was a place called Vinters Park which was a big private place and was used as a war, as a hospital in the war and their guns came over in to our garden at the back. So we were very close to the, we had every night we slept when we were there. Even when I came home on leave we slept down in the, we had six bunks in our —
CB: In your air raid shelter.
JC: Mr and Mrs Shaw didn’t have any children so there was my mother and brother. We mostly played cards and sent the money to the Red Cross. But we don’t, I don’t remember that we talked about people who’d died that day.
CB: What about these, these were anti-aircraft guns.
JC: The?
CB: Anti-aircraft guns you are talking about are you?
JC: We didn’t meet them.
CB: No. You had anti-aircraft guns next to you.
JC: They were over the field.
CB: Right.
JC: In Vinters Park, and they came over. The men didn’t come into our garden but in 19 — before I joined the Wrens, that was July ’41 Detling Aerodrome which was a mile from our house was bombed by the RAF and obliterated.
CB: By the Germans.
JC: And my father was on duty that night at the top of the road called the Chiltern Hundreds, the public house and he, he had the road closed and they wouldn’t allow anybody to come over the road. Well, about 11 o’clock that night he, my father brought two men to our house. They were soldiers. They were men from the Royal Air Force Defence Regiment. It wasn’t a very, it wasn’t an active, it was [pause] then anyway, they’d come back from a day, they’d come back from holiday leave to find they’d no air, no, no air base left. Not allowed up on the road. My father brought them home and they slept upstairs in my father’s bed that night, and the next morning they went back on duty. And the following night they came and knocked, morning they came and knocked on the door and said, ‘Can we, can we please come and sleep again because we’re frightened.’ And my father said they looked it. And they came for about three weeks and my father said, ‘Yes. You can come and you can sleep in a bedroom in the house in the daytime and you’re to help the men dig the hole and finish off the air raid shelter.’ So these men built our air raid shelter. And that was the only contact we had with, with soldiers.
CB: Yeah.
JC: But they were all the way around us. So my brother must, my brother was down in that air raid shelter every night. Had to be. And they weren’t allowed, boys they weren’t allowed to go off to the cinema in the evening. I mean, you didn’t go out. You went in to the air raid shelter. And what he did I don’t know, apart from the fact that after I left probably somebody else came and borrowed a bed for the night. Any vacant bed was taken up and it was, it was busy. It was really, really busy.
CB: We’ll take a break there.
[recording paused]
JC: My husband.
Other: Just one second.
CB: Right. So where did you meet your husband?
JC: At the Royal Palace Ballroom, Southend on Sea. And it was, I’d been in the Navy then for, I met him on the 28th of April 1944, Saturday night. And it was only the second dance I had been to in the whole of the war and the whole of my service. We seemed to spend all our time working. And so I met my husband at the dance and he asked me for a dance, and I met him then. And he was, he had just arrived at HMS Westcliff. I had been there already since, I think the 4th of September 1942. So I had been there nearly two years. My husband was a year younger than me.
CB: And what did he do? What was he?
JC: He was, he was, he was a sub lieutenant in the Naval Coastal Forces. He tried to be in the RAF VR but he failed one of his. I don’t know which one it was, but he failed one of his tests.
CB: And when were you married?
JC: 31st of March 1945.
CB: Right.
JC: And that was arranged before my brother died and we hadn’t told my brother. That would all have been, I don’t know if, well I suppose of course my husband would have told his future brother in law that wouldn’t he? So my brother must have known, but we didn’t send many letters. I can honestly, I can’t remember sending many letters.
CB: So —
JC: We didn’t send many. Didn’t send many [laughs] we sent food parcels to each other [laughs] but we didn’t send much else.
CB: We’ve talked about the fact that what your brother John was doing that your parents didn’t seem to know about it.
JC: Yes.
CB: And you certainly didn’t know.
JC: No. I didn’t know.
CB: So, how was it that you learned about your brother John’s death?
[pause]
JC: But what I learned, I arrived home with my husband on the 6th. Let’s see. Yes. It took, it took twenty four hours for the news to get through to my husband so that would have been the 5th of January. And we travelled back. There was no over, no trains out of Burnham on Crouch in the evening so it was morning of January the 6th that we got the train to Maidstone. And my mother was sitting there with her sister in law, Auntie May who’d brought John up as a baby, and they were just sitting there on the settee next to each other. They didn’t, they didn’t even seem to talk. It was absolutely unbelief on their, on their face that this could really have happened.
CB: Then what?
JC: Hmm?
CB: So you got there and saw mother and aunt.
JC: Saw mother and aunt and then all the, all the family and friends came up. I had to, my husband had to go back the next day. They wouldn’t give him any more leave. I had. I was given seven days, because by this time I was already on, I’d already been shifted to the Royal Naval Hospital at Chatham for despatch. And it was the old Naval physical standard.
CB: So, when your parents knew about your brother’s death, Joy —
JC: Pardon?
CB: When your parents knew about your brother’s death.
JC: Yes.
CB: What happened next?
JC: Well, we heard that, my father got on the phone to the, to the vicar in Buckinghamshire and asked him to find out some news. This young curate, eighteen, nineteen, no he would be about twenty. Twenty years old. He went to Westcott and requested an interview and was told, they said they wanted a letter. Well, actually my parents were very happy when they got this letter which is dated the 9th of January. But what they didn’t know was that every one of that, every one of the aircrew got the same letter. I mean actually lettered the same letter. I mean this must have been the standard letter one or two because we’ve seen it mentioned in the New Zealand papers. So, my father, all the other members of the crew, the five members were buried at Westcott.
CB: At Botley.
JC: Nearby. My father arranged, my father was church warden of our church and he arranged that my brother would have [pause] my brother would be buried at, from the funeral in his own church. My parents were Christian. Church of England. I’d say fairly strict Christian people but were very good people. Very, very good people. They, all the way through the war they entertained next to the church. Our family church was the Kent Royal Regiment’s Headquarters at Sandy Lane, Maidstone and every Sunday we entertained soldiers. And these soldiers were collected at church. I think the word got around, ‘Go to church on Sunday morning and Mr and Mrs Wenham will invite you to lunch,’ because we had a procession of soldiers and my father would write letters for them, because lots of soldiers were illiterate. My father would write letters. My mother mended them their socks, knitted their things for them. So they, they were very good people. They weren’t [pause] how do you put it? I don’t think they showed their grief apart, my mother became very quiet. She, she must have talked to my father about it. She must have told to him she didn’t want to stay. And as soon as we’d married within a year they’d sold the business which was due to be, my father had always hoped that John would follow in his business but that was no longer possible. And they, they sold everything up and moved to Hastings. Although my father at that stage was only borderline retirement and he went on to work for a further twenty years, but he really didn’t know what else to do with himself.
CB: So after the, after the funeral.
JC: Yes.
CB: The funeral was in the church at Maidstone.
JC: No. No. The funeral in the church was absolutely full of people. There was standing at the back. We all went and there were six airmen who carried the hearse, and we all went by transport of some sort to the Maidstone Cemetery. The military cemetery attached to Maidstone Cemetery and we had another service at the graveside and we had the Last Post and it’s the one bit of music I cannot abide. But it was snowing. Snowing again. Afterwards we went back to my parent’s home and his close relations were there and our neighbours and people from the church and we all had afternoon tea provided by my mother. Two of the airmen came up to, to my father and said that it made life easier to know that people could be so sensible over the loss of family they, they just thought that the fact that my mother had baked all these cakes for them eased the problem. It didn’t, did it? But so they all came back and then the men, we’d no idea they, I seem to remember I didn’t speak to them an awful lot but I seem to remember that, that they weren’t close members of [pause] they weren’t colleagues. They didn’t actually know my brother. Perhaps they had a special job, ‘Your turn’s come up,’ you know.
CB: They were representing the RAF.
JC: RAF. Yeah. Representatives of the RAF.
CB: Were, were they ground crew or aircrew? Do you remember whether they were —
JC: The men? I’ve no idea. No. No idea at all. But they spent the whole afternoon and part of the evening with us. And we didn’t know. We had no idea. I think that my father must have known that the New Zealanders were involved, but apart from that I don’t think my mother and father knew anything about these airmen.
CB: The other five were buried at the —
JC: Hmm?
CB: The other five were buried at the Military Cemetery at Botley.
JC: Yes. Yes, and there are pictures.
CB: Oxford.
JC: In it. In Sue Chaplain’s book.
CB: So when did you find out details of the crash?
JC: Oh, well that was when I belonged, I joined the U3A in Luton about ten years ago, I suppose. And I joined the family history group because I’d got an awful lot of pictures and things of Maidstone and that’s my that’s —
CB: Did you —
JC: That’s Maidstone. London Road, Maidstone. Sharp’s Toffee Factory Headquarters. That was the Sports Club.
Other: That was a Sports Club.
JC: And that house was built by my great grandfather.
Other: That’s right.
CB: Now —
JC: There he is.
CB: Just —
JC: And there she is.
Other: Listen. Listen, Chris is saying something.
JC: Hmmn?
CB: Just quickly, just —
JC: Yes. So, that —
CB: You didn’t know from the end of the war, well January ’45, until ten years ago are you saying you did not know how the crash had occurred?
JC: No. No. No, it wasn’t —
CB: And —
JC: It wasn’t mentioned. And I, I believe I’m positive that my father and mother, or my father never knew that. How the plane had crashed. I think he would have talked to us, don’t you?
CB: Did, where, when your own children were born did that cause your parents to wonder how their son, your brother had died?
JC: I don’t somehow think it did. We weren’t [pause] we weren’t actually living close to them. But Christopher the oldest was born when my husband was in Germany and my husband didn’t see Chris until he was nearly eight weeks old.
CB: Right.
JC: Graham was born, and his father had just had a heart attack so myself and Christopher and baby Graham we couldn’t go back. We were, we were living with my father in law. We couldn’t go back there. We had to catch a train and go to Maidstone where my mother took over.
CB: But your parents weren’t prompted to recall.
JC: No.
CB: The death.
JC: No.
CB: Do you think they had —
JC: No.
CB: Accepted that they would never find out or they were pushing it to the back of their minds?
JC: I don’t know. I can’t think. I really can’t think what —
CB: I think we’ll have a pause there.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve talked about your perception of your parent’s attitude and the fact that they didn’t really talk about it but when your parents moved up here to the Luton area and settled here they had pictures, family pictures in the house did they? And how did they explain that?
JC: My parents.
CB: Yes.
Other: Yeah. They didn’t.
JC: My parents never lived in Luton.
Other: Luton.
CB: Oh, they didn’t.
Other: No. We lived together.
CB: No.
Other: We lived together after my parents, my grandparents moved to Hastings. My father my mother and us moved to Somerset to his parents and we were born and brought up in Somerset. So they never lived, we lived together.
CB: Ok.
Other: In Somerset. My grandparents then moved to Somerset so the whole family were in Somerset.
CB: Ok. So, I’m trying to focus on the pictures that your, your parents, Joy had in their house.
JC: Well, they had —
CB: They had pictures of your brother.
JC: My mother’s, my mother’s brother in law, her eldest sister’s husband was a photographer. A private. Made his own, hung his own things across the —
CB: For drying them.
Other: Plates.
JC: The negatives. And developed his own, and this was my mother’s and she had another one and she was very proud of the fact that they were always taking photographs and putting them in this book.
CB: But what I meant was in the house.
JC: In the house.
CB: Did they have pictures and how did they explain?
JC: Yes. Inside the house you mean.
CB: Yes. And what, how did they explain the picture of your brother?
JC: I don’t, I don’t think they needed to explain because —
CB: If they were asked.
JC: Because my brother was so much a part of, of the tight little family that there was then in Maidstone.
CB: Yes.
JC: That we all attended all the family dos. My father wasn’t very happy about it because they would drink, and they would have a singsong around the, around the, around the piano but my father wasn’t very keen on that and neither was my mother. But we all met together and I think my father was, you would describe him as the steady one of the family wouldn’t you? He was the one who, who worked hard and bought his own house.
CB: Yes.
JC: And he bought his sister a house because she was a complete invalid and any family trouble they went to my father, and my brother grew up in that. They didn’t have to talk about him because he was part of it.
CB: Yes. I’ve got that. What I was trying to get at was after the war.
JC: Yeah.
CB: After the war.
JC: After the war.
CB: There would be pictures in the house and your children —
JC: There was always a picture of my brother.
CB: Yes.
JC: Yes. There isn’t one in my house because I decided that that we’ve always got our poppy and we always talk about him but I, we’ve got three great grandsons. Nine, twelve and twelve. And although they came to, they were there at, at the parish meeting. You know. The church.
CB: In North Marston. Yes.
JC: They came to them all but I was, I was delighted. The two didn’t come up from Bath because it was a long way. No, but my, Sue’s daughter brought Woody who is now twelve. He came and he was a good boy. He enjoyed it and he, he, you know, took part. But apart from that I think on the whole that we, we don’t talk about it but they all have four of these books.
CB: Yes.
JC: This is the first book one. And then each one. We did it because in 1986 my husband had to leave the Civil Service because he was a driving examiner and he was injured in three work accidents.
CB: Right.
JC: And couldn’t, couldn’t undertake doing eight or nine emergency stops every, every day.
CB: Yeah.
JC: And he worked for Brian’s family and, but we, we, I was having to make the decision to carry on working.
CB: Yeah.
JC: Because otherwise we, you know we couldn’t manage to pay the mortgage etcetera and it was, it was [pause] oh, I don’t quite know how you would explain it but we felt a bit as if we were the bottom of the pile. All our children were successful. They were all running their own businesses except for Richard in Canada who worked in a furniture store. But all the rest were very successful and we felt that our grandchildren were growing up thinking of us as these were poor relations down the bottom. We didn’t have this and we didn’t have that, you know. We didn’t have lots of things. And so I sat down not thinking in, in 1986, three weeks before Christmas I wrote that book in my lunch hour at work.
CB: Right.
JC: Straight on to the typewriter. Straight on to the photocopier.
CB: Yeah.
JC: At the Post Office.
CB: Right.
JC: We had no other equipment. And it was to try and show them that we didn’t all have all these wonderful trips to America. One of them had been off in Concorde. That we didn’t live that way.
CB: No.
JC: Ours had been a wartime struggle.
CB: Indeed.
JC: And of course there’s that, part of my book was about telling them about my brother.
CB: Right.
JC: So we, we put it in to print for them.
CB: Yes.
JC: And they’ve still got that book.
CB: Right.
Other: Treasure it.
CB: A real treasure.
JC: Reduce them by half.
Other: It’s lovely. A lovely book to read.
CB: Yes. So the reason I asked the question was because so many people after the war, veterans didn’t talk.
JC: No.
CB: About their experiences.
JC: No. True.
CB: And what happens is that grandchildren, children of the children, children don’t, direct children often don’t get the information but the grandchildren sometimes —
JC: Yes.
CB: Elicit the story from their grandparents. So that’s why I was asking about the picture.
JC: Every one of our grandchildren has taken that book to school, haven’t they?
Other: Yeah.
JC: And it’s as I say it’s only half this size.
CB: Yes.
JC: It’s —
CB: It’s A5 size.
JC: A5.
CB: Yeah.
JC: And they still produce it and on occasions and they take, all of them all of them have taken them into school and we heard from the teachers how helpful it’s been.
Other: Helpful.
JC: And Woody’s family, when he was leaving junior, infants [pause] Junior School to go to a Senior Academy they did turning Luton into wartime as an event.
CB: Did they really?
JC: With an evacuee section.
CB: Amazing.
JC: And he used to, he took our book, and they wrote a book for me. His class. Telling me about —
CB: About Luton.
JC: About what they knew about. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. It was a catalyst for wider.
JC: It’s been a real. I wish everyone would do it.
CB: Yeah.
JC: And it did help me. It did help me through going through the U3A. We had a wonderful tutor and she told us, I told her that I had got in the back of my book here the obituaries of my great grandfather, Mr Joe. And my husband’s great grandfather who was a wool merchant. A scrimmage man. And we got them printed from the paper and I showed them to her and in my husband’s book it said that Mr Colbeck’s background were mostly public ministers in the Methodist Church, but one of his great grandfathers fought at Waterloo. So she said to me, ‘Send your money to the Waterloo Society. Three pounds.’ I waited nearly six months for an answer.
CB: Did you?
JC: And the Waterloo Society Man said, ‘We’ve had a reply. Somebody would like to meet you.’ So I said, ‘Well, can I have their number?’ ‘No.’ she said ‘But you, can we give her your number?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ And so I met my husband’s cousin. No. Yes. My husband’s second cousin. A lady in Lancashire where the family came from. Or Yorkshire. And they invited me to meet the family and I was the only relative left and it was incredible.
CB: Extraordinary.
JC: I don’t know. I can’t see that we can be any interest. Any, we haven’t got anything to tell anyone have we?
CB: People are very curious about their history.
JC: Pardon?
CB: People are very curious.
JC: Do you think so?
CB: About their history. Well, that’s why some —
JC: They are?
CB: Well, on the television there are two programmes based on finding out your history.
JC: Yes.
CB: Anyway, I think we’ll stop there. Thank you very much indeed, Joy.
JC: Yes.
CB: For a most interesting interview.
JC: Yes.
CB: To do with —
JC: Yes
CB: The air crash of John Wenham.
JC: Yes.
CB: And the loss of his life.
JC: Yes.
CB: In North Marston.
JC: Yes.
CB: In January 1945.
JC: You’ve got all the rest. It’s wonderful.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Joy Colbeck
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AColbeckJC170524
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:17:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Description
An account of the resource
Joy Colbeck was born in Maidstone, Kent and served within the Women’s Royal Naval Service during the war. Her brother, John, joined the RAF on the 28 of April 1943, qualified at as an air gunner in April 1944, before being transferred to an Operational Training Unit in October 1944 at RAF Westcot. It was here that he, along with the rest of his crew, crashed during a training exercise in January 1945. Joy goes on to explain that she doesn’t believe this affected her family very much, although she does state that people do not recall the war often, likely as they want to forget the experiences they had during it. Joy recounts several experiences of her own during the war, being a typewriter operator after volunteering at age 17. She served on board the destroyers HMS Whitehall and HMS Whitecliff, and the minesweeper HMS 01. She tells a number of anecdotes of her time during the war, including three stories of near-misses with bombs and machine guns. Joy was promoted to a petty officer before joining the Royal Marines at Bermondsey. She recalls meeting her husband during a formal dance at her naval base, but also recalls being incredibly busy during the war, an example being her husband having to meet her parents for the first time by himself as she couldn’t get the time off. Following the war, she believes that people did not talk about their experiences because they didn’t want to dwell on them and would rather move on. Joy continues to take part in memorial services, both Navy and RAF. As part of this, her mother, father, herself and her husband have all written books outlining their experiences during the war and she takes pride in her grandchildren knowing her story.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Suffolk
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-08
1943-04-28
1944-02-05
1944-03
1944-10
1945-01-04
11 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing
crash
home front
Initial Training Wing
love and romance
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
shelter
training
-
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4edc3babf103787302f8c18e56801b42
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/750/10749/ACookJA170918.2.mp3
4978e3d53a8f638857ee98dfc90168c8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cook, Jack Alexander
J A Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Jack Cook (b. 1919, 1893192 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 158 and 267 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jack Cook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cook, JA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Ok. I think we’re ready. Ready to go. So [pause] Ok. I think we’re ready to start. This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Jack Cook in his home in Uxbridge on Monday the 18th of September 2017. Thank you for allowing me to come, Jack.
JC: You’re very welcome.
AS: Can you tell me how you got involved with the RAF in the first place?
JC: Well, in the first place I was in a Reserved Occupation. Instrument maker. So, of course when the war broke out I was safe. Or shall we say safe. And in the end I just would not, I would not stay in there. I mean I didn’t want to see the war going on in somebody else’s backyard. I wanted to be involved so I volunteered. And the only thing I could volunteer for was Bomber Command. They wouldn’t take any for anybody else. So, of course I was glad. Glad enough of that. And I, I was, how can I say? I got, I finally, anyway I finally, they accepted me and I went. Went for training. Usual training. Bomber Command training. And when I finished that the, we naturally went to get crewed up. There I met my, my crew. The other people there. Bill Walsh, he was a New Zealander. I think there’s a picture of him somewhere here. And then the, the other. The other lot. I forget all their names now. Excuse me for that. But yes we, we then, after we’d finished our first lot of training you know we had to learn to fly the things of course and all about them. And as an engineer, what I was going to be a flight engineer I had to know a lot more because, you know you have to know the ins and outs of the aircraft. Anyway, we finally got through our training. From our early training and they put us on, on operations in Lissett. A place called Lissett in Yorkshire. We were flying. We were flying Halifax 3 machines and they were a lovely machine mind you because as an engineer I knew all about that. But we, we finally got sent in to York. A place in Yorkshire where we did, we did, started our operational flying. Of course, then it was straight on to, you know when the when the guns really did go bang. And we, I think we got through [pause] I think got about twelve or thirteen and we, we caught a wallop on the way back and then we had to crash in to, to Carnaby. That’s the big crash ‘drome. Carnaby. And from then of course it was easy going because we’d got another aeroplane by then. And we, we just did short stuff then from then on because we were practically at the end of the war by then. Fortunately, because you know when I did get into the war I got a bit of the war in [laughs] where a lot of people went through the really thick stuff, you know. But anyway, the end of the war we all demobbed. And that’s a painting done of us. And there’s not really anything. Then I went back into industry of course as an instrument maker. But beyond that. What —
AS: Where were you stationed?
JC: I was stationed in Lissett. A York, in Yorkshire. We first of all went on to, we went on to, you know our initial training in Yorkshire. But then we finally, when we finally, when we finally passed out on our initial training they posted us to 158 Squadron in Lissett and we, I think we managed to get off about twenty three operations. Twenty three trips through. I think it was about twenty three. Without my book I’d have a look and we then of course the end of the war we separated and although we kept in touch for a long time but we gradually lose you know. But yes. We did very, we were very lucky. We did get one. One went in on the way back and we got a terrific bang in the old what’s the name wing. And the shell had come up and knocked, you know hit the wing, the wing of the aircraft and sort of knocked us into a spin. We sort of fortunately were able to get back out again and get back. Limp back into Carnaby. That was a special place with extra long runways to, you know for a crashed aircraft to get in there safely. But otherwise and that we just gently cruised through the rest of the war and that was the end of it. We kept in touch for a while. But people —
AS: Were you just, were you just in Halifaxes?
JC: Sorry?
AS: Were you just in Halifaxes?
JC: In Halifax 3. Yes. Oh, a lovely aeroplane. No doubt about that. We trained. Trained of course on the earlier version. Well, you know the old, old stuff for the trainees. And then we transferred to the Halifax 3 which was as I say was a lovely aeroplane. But spoiled it by the end. We blew half the wing off [laughs] You know we were just at the end of the war and then we all sort of went our own separate ways.
AS: Can you tell me about your training as a flight engineer?
JC: Well, yes. I when I, when I was an I was an instrument maker, you see. And of course when I decided I wanted to, wanted to do something a bit more than this I tried to get in and the only thing they could put me on was a wireless operator. Well, you know I thought I’m going to have a go at anything. You know. To get in. And I went on a wireless operator’s course but of course for some reason or other I couldn’t take Morse. You know. I just couldn’t take, couldn’t get it down quick enough. They had to transfer me over. I was lucky because they just happened to be just short of flight engineers so they put me on a flight engineer’s course and I went down to Wales, St Athans in Wales and trained. I went through the training. Got my, got my logbook. It’s around somewhere. And, and then we went on after. After we got our initial training they posted us to a proper Squadron. 158 Squadron in Yorkshire. And that was at Carnaby. Near Carnaby. And then we flew. What did we, I think about twenty three I think before we finally ran out of war. So of course at the end of the war of course we all went our own separate ways.
AS: Can you remember the missions? The missions that you went on?
JC: Pardon?
AS: Can you remember the missions that you went on?
JC: Oh yes. Well, I’ve got a logbook here somewhere.
Other: He’s got his logbook there.
Other 2: Oh yes. Oh. Here we are. Yes.
JC: Yes. Yes. It’s, it’s a bit more interesting I suppose.
Other: Pass it over, Jack.
JC: Where are we? [pause] Yeah. There we are. Flight engineer, on. With the effect on the 18th of January ’45. So, you see we were running out of war quite fast I’d say.
AS: When do you think you actually go in to the Air Force?
JC: When did I go in to the Air Force?
AS: Yes.
JC: Oh [pause] To be perfectly honest I can’t remember when we —
Other: It’s no good looking at me.
JC: Because I tried to get in to the, first of all anything that would take me. Then the only thing you could get from, I was an instrument maker. The only thing I could get to come out from that was aircrew. But I mean I just didn’t believe I was sort of capable of going aircrew. But anyhow I went and they trained. First of all it was rather unfortunate. They put me as a wireless operator. Well, alright but the trouble was I just couldn’t take Morse quick enough. You know. I just couldn’t get it down so no good as that. So, you know you can’t say that, ‘Oh, would you mind running it again? We didn’t hear it.’ So you know I, I transferred then with a bit of luck as a flight engineer. I flannelled my way through. They said, ‘What do you know about cars and engines?’ And all that. And I flannelled. I didn’t know the first thing about how a car worked. But anyway I talked. Talked them into letting me start. So I went to St Athan’s and did the original early training. Then I finally sent up to Yorkshire where I did the operational. What they called the operational training where you have your final polish of all your work and learn how to really cope with aircraft. And then from then straight on to 158 Squadron. Quite a posh Squadron I must say. 158 Squadron in Yorkshire. Near Bridlington. And we, I think we managed to get about twenty three. I’m not quite sure how many it was. About twenty. I think it was twenty three and then we ran out of war. So we all went our own separate ways. I’ve got a few bits here but not, you know. Here’s sort of our crew. Oh, we’ll go through. We’ll go through our crew. Yeah. I’ve got Bill Walsh who was a New Zealander. He was the pilot and he was a smashing bloke. The other one there was [pause] we had two gunners. Reg. Reg Simpson and Nick Nichols. Funny that. And Ray. He was a [pause] he was the navigator. Ray. And the other one was the bomb aimer. And as I say we, does it say how many we got? See what we’ve got in the book. We did, we did catch a packet in one place and managed to land. I’ll show you in a minute anyway. We were coming across Holland somewhere I think. We got, we got hit. That threw us into a spin. And the, the pilot, brilliant pilot, old Bill, a New Zealand lad got us out of a spin, you know. A skinny lad really. And then we managed to sneak across the North Sea and came in at Carnaby. A big, a big crash aerodrome at Carnaby. And, [pause] but anyway as I say we went on from then. We got properly, got through the whole lot. I think it was about twenty three [unclear] But yeah we were lucky. We were very lucky. We had one or two. One or two clips, you know where you know, bits of holes appear in the wings and lumps come off. But on the whole we got away with them. Except on that one occasion when we nearly went down. But [pause] yeah. Otherwise, you see the photograph.
AS: Wow.
JC: Hit by a shell and it actually exploded in the wing.
AS: What, what was life like on the base when you were between missions?
JC: Sorry?
AS: What was life like on the Air Force base between, when you were between missions?
JC: Oh. Wonderful really because we as a crew of seven we tended to, well we were sort of all put in our own hut separately and so of course we lived as a family of seven. I mean there was, there was sort of we had a warrant officer pilot and a warrant officer navigator and the rest of us were all just sergeants. And there was no muscling about. We all went in together in the same hut and oh it was, it was really a lot of, a really a tight camaraderie between us. You know. We were a crew and as they were our right hand. Right arm. You know. It was, of course at the end of the war unfortunately we went our own separate ways and I lost touch.
AS: How long did you keep in touch with your crew mates?
JC: Oh well, first of all of course it wasn’t, it was quite a while and then gradually we sort of got writing to each other. But it was long, it was quite a long time since I’d seen them or heard anything. Yeah.
AS: When you —
JC: We understand that the navigator and Bill the pilot were both New Zealanders. They went back of course to New Zealand. The rest of us we just dispersed. What we had to, I can’t remember you know, we had the rear gunner was [pause] I forget what he was. He was just, just one of the bods you know. Like myself.
AS: When you finished and you came out of the RAF what did you do then?
JC: Well, I went back into the factories of course. It was a bit of a, you know it was all a bit of a wrench from being you know under orders as to getting back. Getting back on sort of your own peace. Your own job. But I went back in to the factories and became an instrument maker and finally a tool and mould maker. When I retired I was tool and mould maker. You know. All the stuff, you look around you has all my fingers on it.
AS: Oh right. And did you find it difficult to assimilate back into civilian life?
JC: No. Not really. I suppose we missed, missed the company for a start but of course we all went our own separate ways and kept quite tightly in touch for, you know for the first year or so but gradually it wandered off and to tell you the honest truth I’m never quite sure where they all are now. But —
AS: Did, did you, you didn’t fly any aircraft other than Halifaxes.
JC: Oh well, after yeah after the, after the war first of all, of course we did our training on a, on a sort of a clapped out Halifax. Then we did our operations on a brand new one. A lovely brand new one. And we spoiled it though. We blew a lump out of the wing. But then after that it was just a matter of pottering around. Aircraft wanted to be delivered from one place to another. I used to have to fill in as a flight engineer. But gradually you sort of get I finally got as I, sort of let out. They discharged. I don’t think I can offer much more than that. As I say because when I came out of course I went to try and pick my old threads as an instrument maker which I was virtually in the same sort of job I finally finished with.
AS: Were you involved with the RAF Associations afterwards?
JC: Oh. Involved with them. Well, not for a very long time. I didn’t realise that there was anything, you know. Anything like that. But it was just down the road wasn’t it from RAF, RAF Uxbridge? There was a, I met one or two people down there. I went in. I got in with them. And we used to meet down there sometimes didn’t we? Well, Olive didn’t but I used to go down there lunchtime. Friday lunchtime wasn’t it? Friday lunchtime I think it was I used to go down there and we’d meet together. But of course I don’t think [pause] I don’t ever really met my crew again. I’ve got a feeling I did meet one of them but you know being as we were a very close knit seven you know. A very, very close knit lot and when you all go your separate ways it’s surprising you are separate and that’s it. But yeah. We had a good crew. A jolly good crew. Have you had a look at the —
AS: No. Maybe I’ll —
JC: Not a lot, not a lot in there really but —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Alexander Cook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACookJA170918, PCookJA1701
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:21:17 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Beginning the war in a reserved occupation, Jack eventually volunteered for the Royal Air Force, however, it would take the majority of the war before he joined. Eventually being called up for Bomber Command in 1944, Jack trained as a wireless operator before becoming a flight engineer. He was sent to RAF St Athan initially for training, before joining 158 Squadron at RAF Lissett to fly Halifax bombers. Throughout his operations, Jack completed 12 operations before his plane was damaged over the Netherlands, having to make a crash landing at RAF Carnaby. He then continues to give information on the Halifax bomber, recounting his experience being hit by a shell during a flight. Jack recounts his time at RAF Lissett as wonderful, living with ‘his own family’, his crew, a family of seven. Reaching the rank of sergeant, he believes he completed 23 operations in total. When the war ended, Jack returned to his pre-war occupation as an instrument maker, keeping in contact with many of his crew throughout the years. He states that it was easy to return to civilian life, but the one thing he missed most was the camaraderie. He is currently involved with the RAF Association.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
158 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
military ethos
RAF Carnaby
RAF Lissett
RAF St Athan
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/751/10750/ACookJH170118.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cook, Joseph Henry
J H Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer (1925 - 2018, 1894875 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a n air gunner with 630 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joseph Cook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cook, JH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: We’re on. Ok. This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Joe Cook today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Joe’s home in Kent and it’s Wednesday 18th of January 2017. Thank you, Joe for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview are Vi Jarmin, Joe’s partner. Joe’s daughter Beverley Maltby and her husband Michael. So Joe, thanks very much for talking to us today. Perhaps you could start by telling us about your early life and where and when you were born and your family background.
JC: Very, very simple. I was born in Sidcup in Kent on the 2nd of June 1925. I’m, I’m living with my grandparents for a little while and my mother and father and then we moved. And we moved to Brockley and more or less orientated around Brockley. My early life. I went to school at Blackfen. And then of course I went to the, what do they call it? Basic school. Elementary school. And, and then I got a scholarship for going to Brockley Central School. Brockley Central School was a marvellous school because we took the Oxford General School Certificate and we took the London Chamber of Commerce Certificate of which I’m proud to say I got the Oxford Certificate and I got the forces of it with the London Chamber of Commerce with a Book Keeping Distinction. That was my basic education. Because of the background I was able to go straight into a job. And I went to, oh [pause] I went in to a solicitors I think it was. Something like that. I was only there a couple of days and it fizzled out. Something went wrong. I then ended up in Twentieth Century Fox Films. I found my own job because it paid twice the money that the others did. So, at Twentieth Century Fox Films I was working in the assistant, whatever, I forget what they call it now. Anyway, it was logging films and how much they would produce and etcetera. I was there until I went in the services. I met my first wife, my wife there and we were married obviously in 1945. I wouldn’t marry her until I finished flying because I said, ‘You can’t get married to a cinder.’ Because all aircrew got terribly burned. So therefore I married in 1945. 20th of October. And I produced eventually [laughs] a long time my daughter who is over there. And that is all I’ve produced because my wife had trouble with TB etcetera. So I wouldn’t let her have another child. My fault. I wouldn’t let her have another child. And I was married for forty six years. My partner over there God bless her heart. I’ve been with her for twenty five years. I’m sorry. And I’m still with her.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe. You were working at Twentieth Century Fox after leaving school. So how did you come to join the RAF and when was that?
JC: Well, after leaving school I was conned into the war because I was a fire watcher etcetera. And every night I had to sit up all night fire watching. And then, and what did I do then? How did I, you said how did I come to get in the Air Force? Well, it’s quite simple really. I didn’t want to go in the Army. Quite simple. But I always fancied flying. I wanted to fly. But I, at that time there was no vehicle to take me flying so I joined the RAF. Now, I had to volunteer for aircrew. As you know they were all volunteers. I volunteered and they accepted me straightaway because of my education. And I had no problem with that. My three days medical at Euston House went through ok. Fine. No problem. So there I am. I am sent to St John’s Wood, in the recently completed flats as, as a base. And I did my three weeks square bashing and knocking me into making me. They knocked you down so that you [pause] sort of thing was you’d clean your shoes. By the way aircrew always wore shoes. You’d clean your shoes and they were, oh you know you’d bone them and all the rest of it. And then the corporal would come in in the morning and inspect. ‘They’re bloody filthy your shoes. Get them cleaned.’ They, it was there to break you. Right. Then you want me to carry on now? From St John’s Wood I went up to Bridgnorth. Initial training. Which was square bashing and all sorts of funny things. From Bridgnorth I went to Bridlington where I did such things as Morse Code. I had to send and receive Morse Code at ten words a minute. Then Bridlington was a learning base for the, as I said Morse Code and other attributes for the Air Force. I then went from Bridlington. Remember that? Where did I go from Bridlington? Oh, I know. Bridgnorth. Not Bridgnorth. I can’t quite get it.
CJ: Was it Evanton?
JC: Huh?
CJ: Evanton in Scotland. Was that it?
JC: No. No. I went to Scotland for my AGS. I’m just trying to think where I went.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you did your basic training in Bridgnorth, Joe.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And then Bridlington.
JC: Yes.
CJ: So, how did the training go from there and how were you picked for a particular role?
JC: Well, I wasn’t, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. But what I wanted to do was kick Jerry up the rear. And the only way to do it was get in the Air Force and get flying. Well, as I say I went to 8 AGS near Evanton. I was trained as an AG. I was flying in Ansons and then, I always remember flying in the Anson. The first flight I ever made they lined us up. Sprogs. Right. There’s a few of us. Eight of us, I think. We were going to fly that morning. ‘Right. You. You. You and you,’ and then it came, ‘You.’ Me. They gave me a handle. And I looked at it and I said, ‘What’s it?’ He said, ‘Up on the wing.’ I had to get up on the wing. Put this handle in the socket and turn it around to start the engine [laughs] Oh dear. And of course once you got one going on an Anson you can get the other one going. But I was sliding about on the wing because it was frosty that morning. You know what Scotland’s like early morning.
CJ: So how did you come to be selected as an air gunner rather than any other role?
JC: Ah. That was at Euston House.
CJ: Ok.
JC: You were in front of a load of gold braid and he, he said to me, ‘Right. We’ve assessed you. You’ve got everything. We have decided that you will be pilot, navigator or bomb aimer.’ And I said to him, ‘I don’t want it.’ He looked at me. He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘I don’t want it. I want to kick Jerry up the rear,’ as I said. So, he said, ‘Well, we’re losing so many AGs.’ I said, ‘I’ll have it.’ So that’s how I became an air gunner. I had all the qualifications to be a pilot but I didn’t want it. And I said, ‘It will take at least nearly a year to train me as a pilot. It’s too late. The war will be over.’ That was the reason. And he looked at me, the groupie and he said, ‘You silly little sod,’ because at that rate they were losing them, losing them so rapid. Anyway, I decided that I would do that.
CJ: So you were training on Ansons in Scotland. And how long was the training for?
JC: Oh. I got up there in [pause] oh around about Christmas time. And then I was trained at D-Day. Now, I’ve got a little story I can tell you about that. I got my AG brevet. Very proud of it. Parade. Get your brevet. And then we were posted to Operational Training Unit, Silverstone. We got on the train but we didn’t go to Silverstone. The bloody thing kept, sorry it kept going and going and we ended up at Tarrant Rushton in Devon. When we got there they said, ‘You are not allowed to go outside the camp. You are confined to camp. You cannot write any letters. You cannot use the telephone. You cannot do anything.’ Everything hush hush. Of course, we didn’t know. We didn’t realise what was going on. They didn’t tell you, did they? They didn’t tell you anything. Why I was sitting on the train suddenly, oh stay on the train because you’re carrying on. And so therefore what we didn’t know was this, that it was about oh a few days, quite a few days before D-Day. Why were we sent to Tarrant Rushton? It was quite simple. This. They gathered together all the people who had just been, got their wings. Pilots and all the rest of it and they’d sent us to Tarrant Rushton and they sent us to fly clapped out bloody Stirlings. And they were clapped. And when we got there we said, ‘What’s all this? Why are we doing this?’ They said, ‘You’ll find out.’ Wouldn’t say a thing. They found, we found out alright because we had to load these Stirlings up with leaflets. Fly over to Calais. Drop them on Calais and Boulogne etcetera and we were chucking these bales of leaflets out and one bloke said to me, ‘What’s all this about? What are these leaflets saying?’ He said, ‘It’s in French.’ I said, ‘That’s alright. I’ll read it to you.’ And what it was saying, “Get out of Calais. Get out of Boulogne because we are invading and we are going to bomb like hell.” So please, Froggies get out. ‘Get out of Calais,’ etcetera. That’s what it was all about because you know as well as I do it was a spoof. Well, we were chucking these leaflets out and it counted as an op because we were going over, over enemy territory really. That was the first four. And chucking these leaflets out and on the way back of course this bloody old Stirling packed up. One engine packed up. And then we thought well blow this. Nursed it back over the peninsula. The Devon Peninsula. And then another one went. And on a Stirling no chance. Got to get out of it. Got to jump. Which I had to do. So I jumped out of it and come down on a tree. With a Land Girl with a pitch fork at the base of the tree to ram it in me. Wouldn’t believe that I was English. Got the, they sent, a lorry came around and there was the rest of the bods in it. And they took us to the farmhouse and obviously then to the station. But that, that was my initiation. That’s what D-Day was to me. Dropping leaflets for four days on Calais, Boulogne, Liege etcetera. So I had only just been trained. And it was so daft that when D-Day had been going for about a week or two we were posted and we were posted to the Operational Training Unit to be trained [laughs] You know. And went there and went on to Wellingtons. The old Wimpy. God bless her. And I did my training on that. We did cross countries. We did ten hour trips. Not ten hour trips. Eight hour trips etcetera. And I finished my OTU and how did we get crewed up? Easy. Big hangar. Type 2 hangar. Right. A hundred engineers. A hundred AGs, a hundred pilots all in this hangar and then the group captain gets up, gives a little speech and then says, ‘Right. Form yourselves into crews.’ He said, ‘Mingle amongst each other, walk around, pick who you think would be a good one.’ So I, I had a friend with me and I said to him, ‘It seems to me that the tall ones, the pilots, are bloody good. They seem to survive.’ So we looked for a tall pilot. And it happened to be a Canadian. And Mac, so we looked up at him and said, ‘Oi. You got two gunners?’ So he said, ‘No.’ ‘Do you want two?’ He said, ‘How good are you?’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I got eighty four percent on my passing out.’ He said, ‘Oh. I’ll have you.’ So, that’s how it was done. In this big hangar. Then you walked out of there and you were a crew and you were brothers together and just went through it all. You were so close. I can’t explain it. Closer than brothers. The sort of thing was we were booked for ops and then all of a sudden our engineer went sick and he went, turned around to the flight commander and said, ‘I’m not flying.’ He said, ‘No?’ ‘No. Mitch has gone sick. Won’t fly without him.’ ‘Oh. Alright,’ He said, ‘We’ll put a spare crew on.’ That’s how it was.
[recording paused]
CJ: So Joe, you tell me how you were all in a hangar together and sorted yourselves out as a six man crew. So where did you go from there?
JC: Well, this was done at Silverstone. Silverstone in [pause] where was it? I’ve forgotten the name of the county. Anyway, it was at Silverstone. The race track then as it was. And we were flying Wellingtons. As I said a six man crew because it didn’t have a mid-upper turret so you just, you carried the other bloke but you were the one in the turret. Then we, we did all the usual things. Training. Long trips. High level bombing. Gunnery. Etcetera etcetera. And finally you were posted to a squadron and — no. Sorry. Missed a bit. From Silverstone you went to Wigsley. Wigsley was a Conversion Unit. You went from two engines to four. To Wigsley, flying Stirlings. I hate the things. And then from Wigsley you went to a Lancaster Finishing School. And then and at that point we knew we were going on Lancasters. We dreaded the thought of going on Stirlings or Halifax. Halifaxes. So we went to Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston. All around Lincolnshire. And then from there we were posted to the squadron. And that’s when I went to East Kirkby. I did all my operations, well twenty six of them. I think, I don’t know. I think it was twenty six from East Kirkby. But I’d already done four from Tarrant Rushton so I’d done my thirty. We were now a fully-fledged crew on a squadron. And on my first trip we’re getting on to this are we? My first trip was the Dortmund Ems Canal. The dear old Dortmund Ems Canal. We used to come up time and time. As fast as they built it up we knocked it down. That was my first trip. You’ll find it in my diary that I wrote. Every time I came back from a trip I sat with pen and ink. Where is it? I sat with pen and ink and wrote down how I felt and all the rest of it. I can’t see it. Oh.
[pause]
JC: There it is. One diary. Now, there’s I’ve lost the other book so there’s only twenty trips in here. I don’t know where it went to. It’s the last one. Last twenty. As I said, Dortmund Ems Canal was five and a half hours. “I felt nervous but got on ok. Saw a Lanc go down and burst into flames in the ground. We did not get coned by tracer or searchlights. I felt pretty fatigued when we got back.” Now, I won’t go right through this because there is too much of it. Now, people say to me, ‘What were the fascinating ones that I did?’ Well, there weren’t really. There was only one target that I personally thought I’d got my lot and that was Politz. Now, Politz is an oil manufacturing conversion place near the Russian border. I went to Politz twice. The second time, and it was a long trip. Ten hours. The second time on the run up to bomb we were running up, steady, steady and all the rest of it and all of a sudden out, a bloody ME Messerschmitt 262 jet came for us and he was putting shells through the top of my turret. He didn’t, he missed us because I had already given Mac evasive action. And as you probably know once you’re attacked the tail gunner takes control of the aircraft and he has to do what he was told. And I gave him a corkscrew and we were lucky there. He went over the top. I’m watching this bloke and it was fifty nine degrees below zero that night. So I’m watching him and let him come in and then I went to open fire and all my four guns were frozen. The oil on the breech blocks, very thin bit of oil had frozen and not one breech block went forward so the guns didn’t fire. And I yelled out to Mac, I said, ‘I can’t fire. I can’t fire. The gun’s useless.’ And he said, ‘Oh. Oh. What’s he doing?’ I said, ‘He’s wheeling around. Wheeling around. He’s coming in for the kill now because he knows that we’re defenceless. My turret has no defensive fire.’ So, I said, ‘That’s it.’ And Mac said, ‘Right. Prepare to abandon aircraft.’ I can remember his words today. So I went to open my turret doors and they’d jammed. I thought. That’s it. This is it. I’m stuck in here. I’ve got an ME262 wheeling around, coming in for the kill. It’s my lot. This is death. This is what death is all about. And then all of a sudden there was a bloody great explosion. We were splattered with bits. What had happened the rear gunner and I didn’t even know the Lanc was there. He got him in his fuel tanks and up he went. And we were splattered with debris. And I yelled out to Mac, ‘Enemy aircraft destroyed. Enemy aircraft destroyed.’ These are my actual words because I can remember them as if it was yesterday. And he said. ‘Right. Resume stations.’ Thank Christ for that otherwise I’d still be up there. And that’s my worst trip. Politz. I had others. Now, in, in here you will see that Heimbach Dam. Even, we went to a dam to blow it up which we were a success at blowing up. In my diary I say, “ME109 sighted just before target. Focke Wulf 190 passed underneath at two hundred feet. Attacked another aircraft to starboard.” Then as we, once again we used bombs on this. Not the bouncing bomb. Heimbach Dam. We ran up to the dam and there was a bloke, well a kite further down. We were on the run up. And they’d got two blooming great guns on the ramparts and they were pointing at a set point of our, where would go in for a run up. So that bloke I said was ahead of us. They got him. Blew him to bits. I thought ooh. But they couldn’t reload the guns quick enough because they were a heavy gun. We went over the top. We dropped our bombs and I saw the dam go. I saw it break and go. We, we got a direct hit fortunately and it was well worth it to see that dam go. But then people would say, ‘Oh, you were a Dambuster.’ No. I was not. I was not a Dambuster. Yes, I went and blew a dam up yeah but that doesn’t make me a Dambuster. When you think of a Dambuster you think of 617 squadron and nothing else.
CJ: So what was it like on the station for — perhaps you can take us through when you knew when you were going on ops. What was the atmosphere like? And what sort of preparation did you do before you went out on a trip?
JC: Before you went out on a trip if you were billed for ops that night then you went to the crew room and your flight commander of each section like gunnery, like engineering, like w/ops etcetera. You were all [pause] what’s the word? You were, you were given all the, all the gen and all the griff and the big map on the wall and that was the first time that you knew where you were going. There’s a sequel to that because we never knew where we were going. Blooming ground staff did. Because we used to go up to the ground staff and say, ‘Oi. What’s the petrol load?’ And he’d turn around and he’d say, ‘Sixteen eighty.’ Oh, got a short trip tonight. Oh, lovely. But if he turned around and he said, ‘Twenty one fifty four.’ That’s two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel. That is a long trip. You’re going to be up there just over ten hours. And in the cold, I mean I below zero all the time virtually. Thirty below zero. But you wore an electrically heated suit. The trouble was typical of a lot of equipment your right hand would burn, your left hand would freeze. Your right foot would be [laughs] the same conditions sort of thing. And in the end you used to switch if off. But you had another suit under it. And under that you had silk underwear etcetera. And a naval white sweater. So it was just about tolerable. I never got frostbite fortunately but I had five pairs of gloves on. You’d wonder how I pulled the triggers but I did. It was the cold that used to get you. Now, when you look at the turret the one I used to fly in anyway, you will see that all the Perspex has been taken out. There’s nothing there. It’s to open air. Completely. Now, why did we do that? Simple. If you got a tiny mark on that Perspex, just a little mark or whatever you’d be there. So took all the Perspex out for clear vision and you were to open air.
CJ: And this was the mid-upper turret you were in.
JC: No. The rear gunner.
CJ: The rear. I beg your pardon.
JC: I had four Browning machine guns. Just to sequel that I had four Browning machine guns. I had five thousand rounds per gun. I had twenty thousand rounds of ammunition and I could only fire a few seconds. Otherwise they get red hot.
CJ: So you were saying about the briefings and when the curtain was pulled back —
JC: Yeah.
CJ: You knew where you were going.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Do I assume that some places were considered easier targets than others?
JC: Oh yes. Yeah. Because you sort of think the tape, the red tape would be going across the map and it would end at Chemnitz. And you’d hear the blokes go ahh. Or Berlin again. Because this friend of mine, Johnny Chatterton, he went to Berlin so many times that they gave him a season ticket. Oh dear.
CJ: So that, are there any other notable raids that you remember? Any notable trips?
JC: Any notable trips?
CJ: Trips that you went on that stood out there.
JC: Yes. There’s another one in here. I went to Rositz. Synthetic oil. I went to Politz. I went to a lot of them. Now, at Politz where I nearly copped my lot and I really did. Now, I’m saying there if I may just briefly read this, “Target Politz oil installation. Flak fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights. Some in target area and over Denmark. Fighters. Two JU88s seen over target. JU88 shot down and destroyed by us.” What really happened was that the JU88, he came up and I said to the skipper, ‘Whatever he does, you do.’ And if he, in other words if he dives you dive with him and keep him in the sights all the time. So mid-upper gunner and myself I raked the canopy. Killed the crew instantly. And that was it. Down she went.
CJ: Ok.
JC: That was a JU88, and that was at Politz.
CJ: So then you, you said you finished your thirtieth op with that squadron because you’d already done four before.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: So, how did it feel when you’d all done your thirtieth?
JC: Well, I can’t explain it because you see we were so used to expecting to die. You didn’t expect to come back. You didn’t expect to do thirty. You were elated. Yeah. Obviously you went in the mess and got a few sherbets down [laughs] Oh, what was I going to say? [pause] There’s little incidents that happened all the time. Such as crew bus. Two crews in the bus. The old crew bus. And it just started going around the perimeter track and one crew their bomb aimer more or less, I don’t know what he was doing. Ah. So he ran after the bus and tried to jump on it. He didn’t. He missed. Cracked his skull. That was it. And of course you’d the sequel of the egg. You know about the egg. Of course you do. When you came back from an op you got an egg. You didn’t get bacon. You got an egg. And it was looked forward to. ‘Cor, crikey I’ve got an egg tonight [laughs] you know, when you got back. But the jokey, jokey thing is that this actually happened. The bloke next to you and he says, ‘Eh mate,’ he said, ‘If you don’t get back tonight can I have your egg?’ And then another thing that happened which aircrew were very boisterous. One bloke went round the back of the servery and he pulled the string of the WAAF’s overall. Well, it was so hot in the mess the overall opened, didn’t it? And she’s leaning forward putting an egg with a slice. You can imagine can’t you. Plop. Now, the other thing concerning WAAFs was we were always playing tricks. One bloke had the brilliant idea he got a bit of wood square and in every hut there was an iron, oh what do you call it? Fire.
CJ: Stove.
JC: Stove. Yeah. So what does he do? He climbs up on to the roof. It was a flat roof for the WAAF quarters. He climbs up on the roof. He gets this bit of wood and puts it on the chimney and holds it down. Then he [laughs] after a few minutes the doors fly open and all the WAAFs come charging out in their underwear. And it was, it was funny you know because they’d got their civvy underwear on.
CJ: How did you feel Joe when you had, when you came back and there were empty tables?
JC: Well —
BM: He didn’t think about it.
JC: I didn’t think about it. I’ll give you an instance of it. Two crews to a hut virtually. Then two crews to a hut. You come back after an op. You’re dead tired. You’d had your egg. You’d gone up the road to the hut, get in the hut, get in the pit as we used to call bed and put your head down and you’d sleep. And then all of a sudden there’s a noise. Clank bang bang bong. You put your head up and there’s a whole bunch of SPs. You could always tell because of the arm bands. You’d look up and you’d say, ‘What the bloody hell are you doing?’ ‘Oh, won’t be long. Won’t be long, chiefy.’ That’s what a flight sergeant was called. ‘Won’t be long chiefy. Just taking the other crew’s gear out.’ This is 3 o’clock in the morning. ‘Well, what’s happened?’ ‘Oh. Well, they got the chop last night.’ Put your head down and go to sleep again.
CJ: So, you finished your thirty ops. And what did you do after that? After you’d over your sherbets.
JC: Well, I wanted a job obviously. I applied to Cossor to Lissen, all, all the old radio manufacturers because of, that’s another thing you didn’t know. I was a radio amateur as well and I had a radio amateur’s licence. So I applied and I thought I’d be in there. Didn’t want to know. ‘Sorry. Can’t give you the job.’ Well, what’s wrong?’ You know, ‘I’ve got City and Guilds in radio.’ ‘What’s — ’ ‘Sorry can’t give you. The reason being. You’re ex-aircrew.’ That was the reason. You were a bloody pariah. You’d been killing people sort of thing. Of course, they’d been over here killing us. I mean I used to say to them, ‘Exeter, Plymouth, Hull,’ etcetera. Shall I go on?’ But of course that [pause] funny us English.
CJ: So after your thirty ops you were demobbed then, were you?
JC: Yeah. Yeah.
CJ: Ok. And then you were looking for a job.
JC: Yeah. And I couldn’t get one. So there was, friends of mine had come out of the Army. A couple of them. They were in to radio and whatnot and we discovered that radiograms as we used to call them or if you could get a radiogram so we said there’s a market here. We’re in. What we did we got hold of all the old turntables. Plenty of them about. And then we built the radio part and the amplifier and we had, knew a bloke who made cabinets. So wooden cabinets to house the radiogram and we were making a damned good business out of it. And then what happened then? Oh yeah. [pause] Because of the radio business a firm down in Barking, Essex they’d heard of me because a, once again a friend of a friend and they said, ‘Well, would you come and set up our radio equipment?’ Which I did. Then I thought to myself well I don’t know. I can do better than this really. Because I’d got the, what do you call it the [pause] the knowledge as well as being able to make the radios and all the rest of it. I got all that so we, I decided I could do better. And I just put a word around and before I knew it Vidor at Vidor at Erith came after me and said, we want you sort of thing. And I went to Erith, Vidor as a buyer. Because of my knowledge and because of my mechanical aptitude I became a technical buyer at Vidor when they were making the little portables. And then while I was there I was head hunted by Decca. And Decca came after me and said, ‘We’ve heard all about you. We know what you do and you know, makes you tick,’ and I became the, in the Decca radio and television side I became the chief buyer for the bits and pieces. And then to finish the story I, I was there, oh quite got a long time. And then once again a friend of mine I worked with at Vidor he wanted to come and see me. He did and he stayed until about midnight and I wondered what the hell was going on. And then I said, ‘Hey Jim, what are you up to?’ So he said, ‘I’m offering you a job ain’t I?’ And I said, ‘But you can’t match what Decca’s giving me at the moment.’ He said, ‘Try me.’ And I did. And he said, ‘Right. I want you. I want you to set up a company with departments and all the rest of it because we have a device which we — ’ A device which they’d patented. How to measure or weigh by means of air pressure. Not electric but air pressure. Now, this was a good thing. I saw the potential because all the big manufacturers of, that were using, making things which were explosive. That was the answer. So we got going into a very good business and it, it really went well until, until twenty years later. The electronic boys found out how to do it. Make it spark. Spark positive. Whatever you’d like to call it. In other words if there was a spark there wouldn’t be an explosion. So they were beating us then at our own game and unfortunately we went down this pan. Or the company did. By that time I was a director of that company. I was also a director of five others. So I took their little engraving, well part it we owned was an engraving company. So I took that and I went up to Leicester. That’s where it was based. There was only two people. I made the third. And I worked away and I got contracts for BBC. People like that. Big contracts. And once again I was doing all right. So I worked away there and sort of set myself up for a pension by an annuity which I’ve still got today. And then of course time to retire. There you have it.
CJ: There you go. And I think you said earlier that you, you didn’t marry until the war was over. Was that right?
JC: That’s right. I said to my late wife, ‘I will not marry you. Not until I finish flying because I don’t want you to be left with a cinder.’ Because aircrew used to get horribly burned and I wasn’t going to have that. That’s why I didn’t. So October ’45 we were married. And that’s the bit. Married. The vicar was available. Just got hold of him. It was the big church in Brixton. Acre Lane where the big church was and we were married in that church. Now, we managed to get the vicar but we didn’t have a choir, we didn’t have anything like that. We didn’t, we didn’t even have a car to take us. We had a car but halfway there because of the war and bald tyres it got a puncture and we had to walk the rest of the way to the church. And we got married the 20th of October 1945. And I was married for forty six years. Forty seven years. Then you know this. I’ve told you the story about Vi and I and the motorbikes.
CJ: So I think you said you had a common love of motorbikes.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And Vi lost her husband as well.
JC: Yeah. What I did, when we said oh well we’ll get together we did. But to get married was such a mishmash I can’t, I don’t, I won’t explain it now but it caused a lot of problems or would have done. So we became partners. And I said to Vi, ‘We’re going to have a look at the world.’ And she’d not, so she’d been to Israel. Where else did you go love? You went to Israel. Where else?
VJ: Everywhere that we could.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Everywhere that we possibly could get.
JC: Well, yeah that’s when I said to her, ‘Right. Well, we’re going to see as much of the world as we can,’ and we did. And we went, that’s why we’ve been to Canada, the states. You name it.
CJ: And did you carry on biking on after the war?
JC: Oh yeah, yeah. Carried on biking. After the war. You see because my friend Stanley was Vi’s husband.
CJ: So what was your favourite bike?
JC: Hmmn?
CJ: What was your favourite bike?
JC: Well, my favourite bike was a Vinny. A Vincent. But my wife wouldn’t let me. They had them. They had one. They had a Vincent. Look. There’s one on the wall up there. They had them. But my wife said, ‘No. No. It’s too fast. No. No,’ she said, ‘I’ll leave you if you get one of those.’ No. I didn’t have one. I had a Triumph. A Triumph 650. Which wasn’t bad. I used to get a fair old speed out of it.
CJ: And coming back to the RAF did you keep in touch with the rest of the crew after the war?
JC: Oh yeah. Yes. I did. But gradually, unfortunately the engineer died of [pause] Oh dear. Cancer. It was cancer, wasn’t it?
VJ: Yeah.
JC: He died. And then I lost touch because well a lot of them disappeared. I’ve since discovered that I’m the only one alive. The rest have gone.
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: Eh?
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: I can’t remember.
VJ: About three or four years.
JC: When was it?
VJ: About four years ago.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Four. Four years.
CJ: Four years ago.
JC: Four years ago. Yeah.
CJ: So I gather you went up to East Kirkby for Mac. Is that correct?
CJ: Yes.
CJ: What was that all about?
JC: Well, his daughter was scattering his ashes in the little field of Remembrance up there. That’s why I went up there. We all went up there. There was a gang of us. Of course, scattered his ashes. I simply broke down.
CJ: And were you in a Squadron Association?
JC: Oh yes. It’s in this. Plenty of them. I’m in the Squadron Association and I still get a newsletter every year. I used to go up to the dinner and dance and whatnot. I used to. Now, I couldn’t. So —
MM: You tell him about Johnny Chatterton and Mike Chatterton.
JC: Well, Johnny Chatterton was the test pilot 630 Squadron. He’d just finished his second tour. He was looking for a crew. We’d finished ours and he said, ‘I’m going to take you over pro tem.’ And he did. He took us over for [pause] oh, I don’t know. About a year. Something like that. And finished our time at 630. Disbanded in July. July ’45. So when we disbanded that was it. Johnny tried to get the rest of the crew to go with him but they wouldn’t have it. They wouldn’t have it.
MM: But his son flew the Memorial Flight, didn’t he?
JC: Oh yeah. Mike Chatterton was, was also in the flying game if you like and he, he used to fly the Lanc. Not fly it. Well, he did but —
CJ: This was the BBMF Lancaster.
JC: Yeah. He flew that but the one at East Kirkby when they first got it running, the four engines and he did the first taxi run. When he finished the taxi run he said, ‘I had a bloody hard job to hold it down,’ he said, ‘It wanted to get in the air. Wanted to take off. I had to hold it down.’ Now, Mike Chatterton, he became a wing commander I think. He’s retired now, of course. The Chattertons own the farm which is near East Kirkby actually. Now, that’s a funny thing you see because Johnny Chatterton was born in a little house which is in, was in the middle of East Kirkby.
CJ: What a coincidence.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Now, have you anything else you’d like to tell us, Joe?
JC: I’m just having a think. What I’m me and my, my beloved partner are carrying on. We’re still together and we don’t know how long because she’s eighty seven. Aren’t you?
VJ: Six.
JC: Eighty six.
MM: She’ll kill you if you don’t know.
JC: And of course I’m ninety one. You had to be that age to do what we’d done because it was at the end of the war. I can add, people say, ‘Well, were you frightened?’ Etcetera. No. Not a bit.
MM: Would you do it again, Joe?
JC: Oh, of course not. I’ve got more sense.
CJ: Well, thanks very much for talking to us today, Joe. That was brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
JC: Yeah. Right.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, tell me Joe did you ever get wounded when you were flying on ops?
JC: Very slightly. I wouldn’t say I really got wounded. What happened was that the flak that came up, came through the turret and caught my right outer gun. In doing so it knocked the back plate off which has the return spring etcetera. And it’s the buffer plate for the [pause] oh dear. I’ve forgotten the name of the —
CJ: The breech.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The breech.
JC: No. It goes backwards and forwards.
CJ: The bolt.
JC: At a fast rate.
CJ: Ok. The firing pin.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The firing pin.
JC: No. No. No. It’s the breech block.
CJ: Ok.
JC: And the breach block came back and came straight out and landed in my lap actually after it had hit the side of my head. Taken my helmet. It took, you know the helmet round bit. The telephones, if you like. Took that off and creased the side of my head and when we went to get debriefed chappy there said, ‘Oh, come on,’ he said, ‘Debrief quick,’ he said, ‘You’ve got to, better go up sick quarters because you’re bleeding.’ I went up sick quarters and the, I don’t know who it was in charge. I can’t remember. But they cleaned up the, where the wound if you like. Cleaned it up and then looked at it and he put an adhesive plaster or a tape on it. Took one step back and said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Fit for flying tomorrow.’
CJ: Well, thank you for that Joe.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe would you like to tell us about any incident when you actually shot an aircraft down?
JC: Yes. I can because I have my diary which I wrote in. Every time I came back I wrote what it was like. So I can tell you that on the 8th and 9th of February ’45 the target was Politz which was an oil installation north of Stettin. And I go on to say, “The flak was fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights, some in target area and over Denmark. Two Junkers 88s seen over target. Then Junkers 88 shot down and destroyed by the mid-upper gunner and myself and the bomb aimer two minutes before bombs gone. This was a very tiring trip being airborne for nine hours forty five minutes. Flown over for, eighteen hundred miles. Crossing Sweden and Denmark and the Baltic. The Swedish AA fire was very accurate and a lot of ‘dive ports’ had to be given to avoid it. That was two minutes from the run up to the bombing run. Then the mid-upper sighted a Junkers 88 on port beam level. The mid-upper and bomb aimer opened fire. The 88 tried to drop behind. I yelled out to the skipper, ‘Throttle back. Whatever he does you do. Don’t let don’t let him go up or down or sideways or anything.’ And then at approximately range is seventy five yards I fired in to the canopy and killed the crew. Both the gunners, the other two other than myself kept firing and strikes observed on both engines and it eventually broke away and the bomb aimer saw it crash in the target area. And it was reported also by other crews. Numerous explosions and thick black smoke with flames intermingled came up from the target. Visibility was very good. No cloud. And marking was bang on. No doubt Politz was well and truly pranged this time. It seemed ages in the air. Especially on the return across the North Sea. There was not much AA fire over Denmark but Swedish gunners were very active. No fighters were, were observed after the 88. This provided enjoyment of aerial warfare.”
Well, thanks very much Joe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joseph Henry Cook
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJH170118, PCookJH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:04:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Completing school and moving on to work at 20th Century Fox Films, he worked as a fire watcher at the beginning of the war before joining the Royal Air Force. He states that he did that because he always wanted to fly and didn’t want to join the Army. He was sent to St. John’s Woods, for square bashing, which he thought was to ‘break’ the aircrews, before completing his initial training at RAF Bridgnorth and then onto RAF Bridlington to learn Morse code. He turned down being a bomb aimer in Anson and trained as an air gunner instead, after being told that they had the highest loss rate. He eventually travelled to RAF Tarrant Rushton just before the D-Day landings, being sent to drop leaflets over France in old Stirlings. Upon completing one of his first four operations, he baled out and landed in a tree. Joe was transferred to Wellingtons, flying training eight-hour trips. Joe also recounts several experiences on operations, including two near misses and flying at low temperatures. He didn’t think about losses, purely as they were so tired. Decommissioned in July 1945, Joe struggled to find work following the war, with people not hiring him as they believed he had killed people. He remained in touch with his crew and he also joined the squadron association. He states that he was never frightened throughout the war, but that he wouldn’t do it again, as he has more sense now.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Urft Dam
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-07
630 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 109
Me 262
military ethos
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/755/10753/ACourtPR171211.2.mp3
f5adb26711d51c0b4874459a61b47524
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Court, Percival Robert
P R Court
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Robert Court (b. 1924, 1728924 Royal Air Force). He served as a rigger and airframe fitter.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Court, PR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Monday the 11th of December 2017 and I am in Reading with Bob Court to talk about his life and times and starting with what are your earliest recollections of life, Bob?
PC: I don’t know. Being [pause] at a place called Organford where there were floods. My mother was sat with her feet in the water and nursing me. Then the old chap was going off to work and he left his Hunter watch on the bed head so I could hear it ticking. That’s my earliest memory.
CB: What did your father do?
PC: He was a post office engineer. Linesman.
CB: Whereabouts?
PC: Dorset.
CB: And what did that involve?
PC: Well, in those days the, during the winter months the snow would bring the lines down and they had to go and put them back up. So it meant travelling about all over the place.
CB: Right. And where did you go to school?
PC: Poole. National school. National Boy School, Poole.
CB: Any exciting times there?
PC: Oh yeah. I thought they were all exciting [laughs] Yeah. It was ok. I managed to keep to the top of the heap all the time so life was pretty, pretty easy.
CB: Did you develop a main interest?
PC: Woodwork, I suppose. I don’t know. My mother wouldn’t let me go to the Grammar School. They wanted me to go and take the exam. But my mother wouldn’t let me go.
CB: Why was that?
PC: Probably she couldn’t afford it. But in, in retrospect I say she probably saved my life.
CB: Because?
PC: If you’d have gone to the Grammar School you’d have been aircrew.
CB: Right.
PC: Not many of them survived.
CB: Right. Right. And what age did you leave school?
PC: Fourteen.
CB: Then what?
PC: Then what? Well, I worked for this furniture company. And then when I was old enough volunteered for the Air Force.
CB: Yeah. But first of all what did you do?
PC: What do you mean what did I do?
CB: Well, immediately after you left school what did you do? Before you went to the furniture company.
PC: I worked for a friend of a member of the family who had a radio business. And I suppose, I don’t know when I turned up, when they packed up. And I went to the Labour Exchange because I had a suit on I suppose they thought here’s a chap for the shop, for this furniture store.
CB: So what did you do in the furniture business?
PC: Well, repairing, French polishing. All sorts of things really. Selling it. Delivering it.
CB: You said you were interested in carpentry at school. So did that put you in good stead for what you were doing for the furniture company?
PC: I suppose it did in a way. Yes. I suppose it did.
CB: So were you an apprentice there or —
PC: Yeah.
CB: Right. And how long were apprenticeships in those days?
PC: This one was three years I think it was. Yeah. Three years, I think. Three years, I think. Three or four years.
CB: So, you were born in 1924.
PC: Yeah.
CB: And that meant that when the war started what age were you?
PC: Fifteen.
CB: And what reaction did you feel with the start of the war?
PC: Pretty good [laughs] I didn’t think we were going to lose. Never entered my head that we might lose. I didn’t realise how close it was but at the time no you wouldn’t. Never thought of it.
CB: So, this is when you’re working for the furniture company.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What did you do that was related to the war at that stage because you were too young to sign up.
PC: I did a bit of firewatching. We had to do that every night. Well, not one night a week at least. Then they started introducing payment so I did two nights. Sometimes three. It wasn’t very onerous.
CB: What did you have to do?
PC: Well, just keep a watch out for incendiary bombs because they were using a lot of those at the time. And put out any fires they might cause. Fortunately, in my area they didn’t cause any. So I was alright. Not bad at all.
CB: So what did they, what title did you have for that task? Fire watching. Was that ARP or what was it?
PC: No. It wasn’t ARP. Just fire watchers or something.
CB: Right.
PC: I don’t know. Who was it introduced it? [pause] I think it was Morrison, wasn’t it? Morrison.
CB: Herbert Morrison [pause] But what did you actually have to do in fire watching?
PC: Well, keep, keep an, keep your eyes open for any incendiaries that might land near you.
CB: I was thinking did you have a base to work from or did you walk the streets or what did you do?
PC: No. We had a room over a shop that we used to sleep in. And any air raids we’d go out and wander around the streets.
CB: Right. And you had a supervisor or who controlled what you were doing?
PC: Yeah. We had a chap who owned one of the shops. Well, he owned a chemist shop and he was the chap in charge. Yeah.
CB: So what did you find in there?
PC: Hmmn?
CB: You’re looking in your book. What have you got in there?
PC: Oh, I’m just trying to remember what was going on. The Dunkirk business.
CB: Well, we can come back. Let’s talk about Dunkirk then. So you remember Dunkirk in 1940.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What do you remember particularly about that?
PC: Well, when was it?
CB: Because you’re in Weymouth.
PC: Germany attacked Poland. No. I was in Poole then.
CB: Oh, in Poole were you?
PC: The Phoney War. Holland. The occupation of Denmark and Norway. The evacuation of Dunkirk. I remember watching soldiers coming in to Poole Quay on any craft that could make the journey.
CB: Right. When they landed then what happened to them?
PC: Tea, cigarettes, beer and food being given to the bemused troops. Pitiful to see them. Did not appreciate —
CB: What sort of state were they in?
PC: Not very happy. Glad to be out of where they were though.
CB: Were they upright, bedraggled or what were they?
PC: Well, they were a bit bedraggled but apart from that they were ok. Glad to be out of there. That was all.
CB: Yes.
PC: Yeah.
CB: So after that you continued with your fire watching.
PC: Yes.
CB: Did you join the ATC or —
PC: Yeah. Yeah. I joined the Air Training Corps.
CB: Right. And when was that? That was when you were what age? Was it at the time of fire watching?
PC: Yeah. Obviously [pause] when were the ATC formed? When was that?
[pause]
PC: Yeah. Herbert Morrison was the one who said all persons between sixteen and sixty register for fire watching duties.
CB: Right.
PC: So, I, they used to pay four and sixpence. Twenty two and a half pence per night. I didn’t earn much so I volunteered to do two and sometimes three nights a week.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Which helped my salary immensely.
CB: Can you remember what you earned when you were working for the furniture company?
PC: Yeah. Twelve [pause] twelve and sixpence.
CB: Did you?
PC: Or sixty two and a half pence.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Per week. The Air Training Corps was in 1941. And I joined in March 1941.
CB: The ATC.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, now you’re coming up to be old enough to join the forces. What made you join the RAF rather than the Army or the Navy?
PC: As I said, I couldn’t swim. And I didn’t like the brown jobs. They got too close. So, I thought the Air Force might be a bit safer.
CB: Right.
PC: Which it proved to be.
CB: So, what, what was the process then of joining up?
PC: I went to [pause] where did I go? I went up to Southampton I think. Volunteered.
CB: Did you go to Cardington as a start?
PC: Yeah.
CB: What happened at Cardington?
PC: I went to [pause] joined [pause — pages turning] Yeah. Cardington. Somewhere. I volunteered. It was possible to volunteer at seventeen and a half.
CB: Yeah.
PC: I did that in February ‘42. Volunteered for service as a flight mechanic.
CB: Right.
PC: Report to the centre of Southampton for a medical and attestation. Bear true allegiance to His Majesty King George the Sixth, his heirs and successors blah blah blah. Got the King’s Shilling in the form of a postal order.
CB: Oh, you did. Right.
PC: I was hoping to be given a shilling but they didn’t. They give me a bloody postal order. I should have saved it but I didn’t. So, I went to, and I was with the ATC at their Fleet Air Arm place at Sandbanks and I had to report to Cardington.
CB: Right.
PC: Yeah. Never been outside the county ‘til then.
CB: So, what did you do at Cardington?
PC: Got kitted out. Did some tests. We had to fill out, yeah fill out all these books. Tests. I was about to decide what we would do. Test booklets. Fill in name and number. Answer all the questions you could. Such things as mathematics, simple science, English diagrams to determine which way cogs might revolve around levers and pulleys operated. Seemed to go on for hours and days by the end of it. Afterwards when discussing with others how they thought they had fared I began to realise that not all of us were as well equipped as others. In fact, the lad I travelled with from Poole had found the exercise very daunting. Then we were interviewed by, about technical matters school, blah blah blah. Issued with uniforms and equipment. Everything. Dog tags and whatever. When all this was going on the, an airman came and called out your name. Gather up your kit and follow him. My friend from Poole was amongst us. ‘Where are you going?’ I asked. ‘I’ve been selected for the RAF regiment.’ Soon our numbers were quite depleted. We slept soundly that night.
CB: So, are you saying not everybody was accepted in to the RAF?
PC: They were accepted into the RAF but not in what they wanted to do.
CB: Right.
PC: Like this chap that came with me was put in the RAF regiment.
CB: Yes. So, what other jobs would they have put them into?
PC: Well, there was cooks.
CB: Yeah.
PC: All sorts of things I think. Different. Different. I’m trying to think really.
CB: But you’d been identified as somebody to work, you said earlier as a rigger.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Is that because you asked for that or they suggested that’s what you should do?
PC: Well, no. What happens, you were sort of all lined up and said, I would say about sixty or so of us and those who wished to be air frame mechanics to cross to the other side of the room. Not a soul moved. Didn’t know what he was bloody talking about.
CB: No.
PC: ‘Right,’ he said, said to the group, he said, ‘All those on the left engines. Those on the right airframe.’ That’s how I became a flight mechanic air frame.
CB: Right.
PC: That’s it.
CB: Was this chap a corporal or —
PC: It was better actually than the engines. I thought so anyway. And we went from Cardington to Skegness for square bashing.
CB: What else did you do at Skegness?
PC: Just the initial training. Marching up and down.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Cracking the paving stones.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Then we were —
CB: Was there any classroom work? It wasn’t square bashing all the time was it?
PC: Square. Well, most of the times. Yeah.
CB: And from there?
PC: Didn’t have any rifles so we had wooden replica rifles. Bayonet practice with pikes. Scaffold tubing with the bayonets welded on. Bayonet practice we charged at straw filled sacks on wooden frames and around again. We were encouraged to scream and shout the meanest of obscenities as we charged forward. Urged on by the instructors. In, out, Oh God, out the ground, left, right, right, oh dear. Oh dear. Unarmed combat was taught. Be invited to charge the instructor with a rifle and bayonet, and we’d be tipped ass over head in no uncertain manner. How we would fare in real combat was never really put to the test. The assault courses, climb wire, barbed wire, rope netting. Crossing streams and, oh dear. Did guard duty. We’d sit on the seafront with a machine gun on the beach. Wend our way through the mines laid on the beach, ropes and tape. The odd mine was clearly visible in the sand so one was apprehensive when going backwards and forwards. The Butlins Holiday Camp was used by the Navy as a training establishment. Given the name HMS Arthur. The camp was full of Naval though we never seen any in the town. They must have kept them away. Perhaps the authorities in their infinite wisdom kept us apart. Many lectures on various aspects of service life. We had medical officer of the dangers of venereal diseases. This was my first introduction to sex education. For me it was a rude awakening. The MO marched on the stage in the lecture room and held up an unrolled French letter which he announced was a condom. In my ignorance I only knew it as the more familiar name. They were sold sureptisously in barber’s shops where male customers would be discreetly asked if they needed such things for the weekend. He ran to great length about syphilis, gonorrhoea, associated with women of a dubious character. If we did succumb to these wiles we’d be marching with a standing penis and no conscience. Returned to a room behind the guard room where prophylactic treatment was available. This lecture was reinforced by an American film of soldiers frequenting a brothel and the resulting liaison in full colour. Various venereal diseases in all its ghastly forms. Pretty shocking to my young senses. What kept most men on the straight and narrow was the exception that women were to be respected. The ultimate way was that the man would marry a virgin and young women accordingly kept themselves chaste. At home sex was never discussed. It was taboo. But nevertheless there were plenty of innuendoes bandied about between Babe, Benny and some of the lodgers. I was a little naive to appreciate what was going on. Films and books were played down as part of any stories so as not to offend the sensors. Songs adhered to a strict code of practice. Some comedians like Max Miller sailed pretty close to the wind. A popular song of the day was, “Doing What Comes Naturally.” And that was how people were introduced to sex. To suppress our sexual drive a cup of tea or cocoa we drank was laced with copious amounts of Bromide. Also we were kept so busy with square bashing and PT at the end of the day we were too exhausted for such dalliances. That coupled with our meagre pay did not leave us much for entertaining the opposite sex. As the course progressed so did our fitness. Jack London was training for his fight would delight in picking out likely lads to spar with him in the boxing ring. Fortunately, for me being I was slight build I was not selected for this ordeal. We could not avoid the forced marches that were his pet items. Be paraded in marching order with small pack. Gas mask we had to march at a fast pace for about ten miles or so. Periodically we’d be halted for a short rest but Jack would prance about shadow boxing while we looked on in awe. And off we’d go again at almost a gallop. After six weeks or so of this intensive square bashing we were deemed to be sufficiently proficient in parade ground techniques and arms drill, armed and unarmed bayonet, to be referred to the next place of our training. Come of some use in the overall strategy of the Air Force. And then off we went. Went to —
CB: Where did you go next?
PC: Went to a place called Brindley Heath near Birmingham. Just outside Birmingham. And we marched up to the camp known as Kit Bag Hill surrounded by an eight to ten foot high wire chain link. This was number school, number 6 School of Technical Training. It would be our home for the next five or six months. So that’s where I went.
CB: So, at the Technical School this was specifically was it for the trade you were put into?
PC: Yeah. Yeah. Number 6 School of Technical Training.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Very desolate. Looked rather gloomy after Skegness. I was accommodated in one of many of the wooden huts. In the centre was a coal burning stove. Iron beds that telescoped to give a spacious look to the room. On each bed was three square shaped mattresses called biscuits. Pillow. Three blankets all arranged in a precise manner which we would get accustomed to making before going on parade in the mornings. A corporal was in charge of the hut and the weekly inspections of the hut ensured was spotless before he allowed us to go to breakfast. Woe betide anyone who entered the hut after he’d pronounced it satisfactory. Not only were the trainees RAF personnel but there were the Fleet Air Arm, Polish and WAAFs which added a degree of rivalry to us all. Each morning we’d parade outside the hut at 7.30 am. Headed by the station band we would march to the workshop to the strains of, “Sussex by the Sea.” We would mutter as we marched along in the darkness, “Good old Sussex by the sea. You can tell them all we know sod all of Sussex by the sea.” How’s that? [laughs]
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, the RAF called this site you’re talking about RAF Hednesford.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually do there?
PC: That was the —
CB: Brindley Heath.
PC: Yeah. First two weeks dealt with basic engineering practice. I did on occasion metal, metals used in aircraft production. Types of drills, screws, tools, heat treatment, corrosion. Main practical work involved filing a piece of mild steel about three or four inches square, a quarter of an inch thick. Dead flat and square. Both faces and all surfaces. At the end marks were attained in the practical theory and oral examination we continued with the course. Otherwise we were re-mustered into probably the RAF regiment. Perish the thought. Anyone with ninety percent could go on to the fitter’s course. Those with marks forty or less would be re-mustered. Only one of our entry was. Which was a hundred and fifty eight passed with high enough marks and one failed. And he had the, as he had had office experience in Civvy Street he was posted to the admin section as a Clerk GD. We were rather derisory towards him but he had the last laugh because by the time we had completed the course he had been promoted to corporal. So he did well. None of us were concerned about going on the fitter’s course which meant another ten weeks of training and many were anxious to join a squadron and actually service aircraft. Once the basic training was over we got down to the serious business of the flight mechanic’s course. Sixteen weeks of instruction, preliminary rigging, knots, lacing of wire and rope. Fabrication, application, doping and painting, carpentry, hydraulics, pneumatic, wheels and tyre maintenance, marshalling of aircraft. Procedures for the daily inspection. At first I’d been disappointed in not being successful in being selected as an engine mechanic but once on the course I found it so varied and covered such a variety of activities I was glad. Later in life it stood me in good stead. Once we were, similar routine with our spare time spent in the NAAFI. Occasional visits to the camp cinema. One film I recall was the story of that guy who sold his soul to the devil. Was it a warning? Also got initiated in playing cards. Not Whist, Rummy and Cribbage that I was reasonable in but Brag, Pontoon and Solo. We did not have a lot of money to indulge in these games and after being relieved of my meagre pay by the card sharks among us I became more cautious about getting too involved. The only game officially sanctioned by the powers that be was Tombola or Housey Housey. Less stressful and you were unlikely to lose too much of your money. Weekends we’d venture in to town with Walsall being one of the favourite places. Many thought I came from Canada. Due to my West Country accent no doubt. So I would say I came from London, Ontario. I was intrigued by the accents of these Black Country people as they were known here. Hednesford itself was a mining village. We’d often visit the snooker hall and local pub. The younger miners a little hostile to us as many would have liked to have joined the Services from what was a Reserved Occupation from which there was no escape. Hence their frustrations. Shall I go on?
CB: Yeah.
PC: My best friend, Bob Matthews, a Londoner and I was a bit in awe of him because he was very streetwise while I was just a country boy who knew nothing of the big wide world. As I lived in Poole it was much too far for me to go home on a forty eight hour pass and I stayed with him with his parents in London. Fabulous. They lived in Woolwich and his father was security officer at the Royal Arsenal. They had a small cottage inside the Arsenal as part of the job. You would say that this was the safest place in London. Bob had a regular girlfriend. Sylvia, I believe. And he introduced me to her sister Vera. This made a convenient foursome for us. Also, Vera was my first really serious girl. We used to write copious letters to each other even when I was posted overseas. However, when I was abroad for a long separation of course there was a cool off a bit and she met up with another lad. When I came home in 1947 we did try to get together but I was very unsettled and did not know what I wanted to do so we drifted apart. Compared with Poole, Woolwich and London in general was a wonderland to me [pause] Pubs such as Dirty Dick’s were so different from those in Poole. We would meet Bob’s mother in one and she would proudly show off her pride and joy to her friends. Christmas I spent at the camp not wishing to go home as I wanted to enjoy service life to the full. I withdrew my name from the list of those wishing to go home to allow the married ones a better chance of selection. Periodically we used to do guard duty. This involved being on duty from 6pm until 8am the next day. One did stints of two hours on and four hours off and we usually slept in the guard room cells. Some did duty on the main gate and others patrolled the perimeter fence. The shifts 12 to 2am and 2 to 4am were in my opinion the worst. I remember on one occasion falling asleep in the sentry box and nearly falling over as I slept. God knows what would have happened if the orderly officer had come around. Tell that the circulated camp was that Naval Fleet Air Arm types who assisted their mates to enter the camp after the magic hour of 23.59 by fixing their bayonets to the rifles. Pushing them through the chain link fence to form a sort of ladder. Coming up this way one of the bayonets snapped off. What was the outcome I never did know or whether it was true. Completion of the course in February ’43 we attended a passing our parade, informed of our postings, given a travel warrant and sent home on a weeks’ well-earned leave. We had previously been asked where we’d like to be posted and I opted for Ibsley near Ringwood. A Spitfire fighter station. Whether they did this deliberately to post you as far from the location desired I don’t know but I was posted to 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit, Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire.
CB: Right. We’ll stop this for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: You mentioned the passing out parade from the end of your training. So how did that go?
PC: Well, the square bashing do you mean? After doing the foot drill.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Yeah. What did that involve?
CB: Yeah. When you’d finished your technical training you had your passing out parade.
PC: Technical training.
CB: Yeah. Before you were posted elsewhere. So what, what was the passing out parade?
PC: I can’t remember really. I think we just had to march past the CO and eyes right and off you go.
CB: Yes. And did they give you something in terms of certificate. Or —
PC: No. No.
CB: Families invited or anything like that?
PC: No. No. No. No.
CB: Right. And did you get a bean feast afterwards?
PC: A bean feast?
CB: A pub. Food.
PC: No. No. You were sent home on leave.
CB: Right. That was the reward [laughs]
PC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: So when you joined the RAF you were an AC2. How did the promotion go from there?
PC: Well, the next stage was AC1. And then LAC. Leading Aircraftmen. I think nowadays they follow the Army and they call them corporals.
CB: Well, I think they’ve still got LAC and SAC.
PC: Yeah. Have they?
CB: Senior Aircraftsman. So at what stage were you, did you become a Leading Aircraftsman? At the end of your technical training was it?
PC: After I’d been on the Heavy Conversion Unit for a bit.
CB: When you got on with it. Right. Ok. So you were posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit. That was at Waterbeach. So, what was your role there?
PC: Just —
CB: Because you are now technically what’s your description of your trade at that stage?
PC: I’m a flight mechanic.
CB: Right.
PC: Flight mechanic air frame. Yeah. Arrived at the camp at about [pause] it was quite dark. Reported to the guard room. Soon allocated a billet. Guided to the dining for a much needed meal. Quite bewildered. At the same time thrilled to hear the roar of aircraft engines as the planes were taking off from the airfield.
CB: What were the aircraft?
PC: Stirlings.
CB: Right.
PC: The airfield was about four miles from Cambridge. Only built during the general rearmament programme of the late 1930s. Officially opened in 1941. Earmarked to be a heavy bomber station. When I arrived it was equipped with the Short Stirling four engine bomber. I was a little disappointed to find that the unit was not on operational one but involved with the final training of aircrews before going on to an operational squadron. Stirlings were given this role because the Lancaster and Halifax heavy bombers coming on stream were far superior in Bomber Command in bomb carrying capacity and ability to fly at high altitudes. Stirlings had been designed in 1936 but its projected wing span of a hundred and twelve feet had to be reduced to less than a hundred to be accommodated in the hangars. This would seriously affect its ability to fly any higher than about eighteen thousand feet and was therefore more vulnerable to anti-aircraft and fighter attack. Its robust construction based on the Sunderland ensured that it would withstand serious battle damage. It was used successfully as the main bomber along with the Wellington. But as night fighter operations improved these losses were unsustainable. Stirlings last big operational roles was when it was used as a paratroop carrier. And the towing of gliders during D-Day and at Arnhem. It was at Arnhem that my brother Jim was captured and spent the rest of the war in a prisoner of war camp. My first day on the flights when I was introduced to these huge monsters towering above me left me a little awestruck by its sheer size. This was certainly a big aeroplane standing about twenty feet high. Twenty eight feet high on its huge ungainly undercarriage. My job as a flight mechanic was to carry out daily inspections. Checking the tyres, tyre creep, leaks from the oleo struts, free working of the ailerons, rudders and elevators and inspect for damage generally. Checking the cockpit. The operational controls. The most frightening task for me was the cleaning of the cockpit windscreen and windows. This necessitated climbing out of an escape hatch midway along the fuselage, walking along to the cockpit and then lying down to clean the Perspex windows. At first I would crawl on my hands and knees up the fuselage much to the amusement of the old hands. After a few days I became as blasé about it as they were and would quickly clamber along the fuselage ignoring the height above the ground. Refuelling held its dangers too. The training of pilot and co-pilot to successfully take off and land at night and to get the rest of the crew to operate as an efficient unit. Night flying was the norm for this work and on its completion usually about two or three in the morning one of the jobs was to refuel the aircraft so that it was ready for immediate take off. The Stirling had fourteen tanks in the wings holding over two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. On a cold winter’s night this was a gruelling task. To hold open the nozzle to allow the petrol to flow in to the tanks hands and fingers soon became numb with cold. Accentuated by the high octane fuel. I’d not been there long when my turn for night flying duties. This meant being, among other things being on standby on the flight hut to answer requests from the pilot for a supply of compressed air. In night flying operation the aircraft would be doing circuits and bumps continued throughout the night. The small engine driven pumps which fitted to the aircraft could not maintain enough compressed air in the [floor cylinder] to cope with the continual application of the aircraft air brakes. After a number of landings and take off a cylinder would need replenishing. My job was to meet the aircraft on the perimeter, top up as necessary. Rather than wait in the cold flight for a call out many of us would join the aircrews with a fully charged air cylinder and enjoy the thrills of night flying. Sans parachute I might add. When the top up cylinder was empty we would leave the aircraft. Turn to the flight and have to wait for the next call. At the end of the night flying the next task would be to meet the aircraft on the perimeter. Guide it to its dispersal point on the flight. On my first occasion the duty corporal took pity on me and told me he would delay my introduction to this task as long as possible. Whether he doubted my competence I know not. There was suddenly a flurry of activity and with the phone ringing continuously, airmen gathering up torches and disappearing into the night I found I was the only one apart from the corporal left in the hut. The phone rang and he reluctantly handed me two small torches and told me to guide G-George to its dispersal point with some brief warnings of the possible dangers. Out I ventured in the total darkness to meet this huge monster towering above me on the perimeter track. Along with my two torches waving them in the prescribed manner I gradually brought the aircraft with its roaring engines and red hot exhaust to its dispersal point. Now came the tricky bit where it was necessary to turn the aircraft in a complete circle on the frying pan to be ready for refuelling. One had to be careful to keep in full view of the pilot. Not to stumble or trip otherwise one might be run over by the tail wheels as the aircraft turned around in the tight space. With heart thumping and nerves frayed I managed this without a mishap. I’ve often wondered if the pilot ever thought how vulnerable the poor ground crews were when carrying out this type, this operation. Back in the flight hut I don’t know to this day who was more relieved. Me or the corporal. Periodically, as well as doing a guard duty on the main gate on the perimeter of the station we also had to do a kite guard. Kite being slang for an aeroplane. For this duty one would have a couple of blankets, go to a designated aircraft and spend a night guarding the aircraft. I cannot recall whether we were armed or not or how effective the guard was is debatable. Whenever I did this duty I would spend the time exploring the aircraft, playing the various roles of bomber crews. I imagined I would assume the duty of the pilot, co-pilot, flying over Germany and the North Sea to the target. When tiring of this I would then take on the role of the bomb aimer. Lie down in his position in the front at the front and guide the plane and drop the bombs. Other roles would be front, rear and mid-upper gunners. Sitting in their turrets and shooting down enemy fighters. Although I fantasised playing these roles I never felt I would be suitable as an aircraft member. Aircrew member. Partly as I did not consider my education, background good enough at the time. Aircrews were recruited from the universities and Grammar Schools and my basic elementary schooling was not good enough. As war progressed and a shortage of suitable candidates became apparent particularly for the flight engineers. I would probably have been acceptable. By this time I’d retrained as a fitter and was quite happy in that role. For sleeping there was a foldaway stretcher located in the fuselage but sleep was an uncomfortable experience, climbs in the aircraft on a cold winter’s night. And equally so on a hot summer’s night. At 6am in the morning loud banging on this aircraft would awaken one and you would stagger off to the dining hall for a cup of tea and an early breakfast. But the ordinary perk was the cooks were generally sympathetic and generous at that hour. I had not been at Waterbeach long when it came apparent getting around a camp site, a bicycle was required so I wrote home and asked my mother to send my bicycle to me. She did. Registered. And I was mobile. A cycle was as essential in those days as a car is today. Visits to Cambridge and the local villages was easily accomplished with the minimum of effort. This being the fen country it was very flat. Very few hills to negotiate. This part of the country was ideal for the location of bomber stations so that although heavy laden to take off safely. Cambridge was a beautiful city with its many fine buildings, colleges and the River Cam running through it and I spent much of my free time exploring its many features. Cambridge being a university with its teaming population of undergraduates I found it difficult in coming to terms with. I was brought up to the idea that one had to get out to work and earn a living as soon as possible. My mother did not encourage one in the value of education. In fact, by her intransigence she discouraged me from taking the entrance to the local Grammar School. At the time, 1943 Cambridge was full of American servicemen and I’m afraid us poor erks could not compete either financially for the favours of the local girls. We had to be content with the NAAFI, Toc H, Sally Ann, for entertainment. Plus the cinemas. I remember there was some trouble when some time expired servicemen returned from their tour of duty in North Africa and many confrontations occurred between the two factions. I found it more expedient to stick to the village and Waterbeach itself than get involved in any trouble. My father died in November ’43. Flight Sergeant Mills took me under his wing and helped me through the trauma and he often took me to the British Legion club in the village where he was a much respected and popular friend. As spring arrived the hours of daylight increased. The trainee aircrews were required to wear goggles with dark lenses in order that flying hours were maintained. The runways were illuminated with sodium lights to complete the illusion of night flying. This almost around the clock flying put quite a strain on the servicing ground crews. But with the increasing aircraft production losses of aircrews by enemy action it was necessary to maintain a flow. One day while working on the flights [unclear] came and said anyone would like to retrain as a fitter 2. This was an upgraded group 1 in trade structure in the RAF was highly regarded as it opened up the route to promotion. I asked when mine would be likely to be selected, know if to be selected and how that might be. He told me it would be several months before it would come about. Thinking to myself it would get me off the flights for the winter months I put my name forward. Rather than months, a couple of weeks later given a weeks’ leave and told to report to Number 1 School Of Technical Training at Halton to begin a fitter’s conversion course [pause] on the 2nd of July 1943. Number 1 School of Technical Training, RAF Station Halton. Halton was the home of the boy entrants in the RAF and affectionately known as Trenchard’s Brats. The terms of service was to fulfil twelve years of service from the age of eighteen when the option to sign on for a period if they so desired. The apprenticeship was four to five years duration and they seemed to be the cream of the tradesmen and indeed they were. The war was a Godsend to that force with the rapid expansion of the Air Force. Many were promoted to high ranking position both as officers and senior NCOs. So they did well. Volunteers and conscripts like myself after completing a flight mechanic’s course the period on the squadron required to do a conversion course of fourteen weeks to be brought up to the required standard. I think I was the youngest and certainly the lowest in rank at AC2, Aircraftman Second Class. Many were LACs, Leading Aircraftsmen with several years service to their credit. RAF Halton near Wendover in Buckinghamshire was situated uphill from the town. Every day we would form up on the square, march to the training workshops. The Brats would lead the parade with the mascot of a goat, a goat and the station band at the head. The Brats were distinguished by wearing cheese cutters. Peak cap, with a chequered brim on the edge whilst we wore the Glengarry type of head gear. One of our entry also wore a cheese cutter as he had had the devil’s own job to convince the RAF police that he was not a Brat. One night on the town he had been an aircrew member and lost all his hair as result of some trauma and had permission to wear the cap to avoid embarrassment. The course, like the flight mechanic’s was fairly intensive dealing with basic engineering, metal repairs, hydraulics, minor and major inspections. A lot of instruction involved American aircraft such as the Kitty Hawk, Tomahawk and the methods used in the servicing of these aircraft. Weekends we could not obtain a pass we were expected to take part in some sporting activity. The skivers among us would often choose the cross country run over the hills and through the woods down to Tring. At some convenient spot we would hide, enjoy a crafty smoke and wait for the main pack and rejoin them for the return to the camp. Those who declined to take part in any of these activities would find themselves detailed for spud bashing which involved the peeling and removing the eyes from the potatoes. Halton was conveniently placed near London. And weekends we could spend in the city. We used to stay in the YMCA hospital, hostel at Westminster. Therefore we’d be taken by bus to a section of the underground not used by the railway. Here three tiered bunks were provided at a shilling. 5p per night. You took pot luck as to who your fellow borders might be and hoped they would not be too drunk or awkward. Other times when I stayed in camp I would explore the local towns of Aylesbury, Rickmansworth, Tring etcetera. During wartime these were pretty boring places to be for a serviceman as with beer in short supply unless you were a regular you could not hope to get served in any pub. Whilst at Halton the forty third intake of Brats came to the end of their course. We were all given a forty eight pass and told to leave the camp or stay at our peril. When we returned to the camp we’d seen why we had been told to get out. The place was in a shambles. Beds and mattresses hanging from windows, forty free entry signs daubed on walls and general mayhem everywhere. Apparently it was a tradition that on the completion of a course the Brats were given a free hand to celebrate their final days at Halton. The new entry would have the job of cleaning up the ensuing mess. Which gave them the incentive that they could do better when they completed their course. However, when we finished the privilege [pause] however when we finished the privilege was not granted to us. I completed the conversion course and now fitter 2A still with the rank of AC2. This gave me an increase in pay and I was now in group one of the trade hierarchy of the Air Force. Sent home and then posted back to 1651 at Waterbeach.
Other: A rest.
CB: I think we’d better stop there. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re taking a pause now because Bob’s getting a bit tired. We’ve got to the stage where he’s returned to Stradishall and there’s a lot more to be covered in the later part of the war and afterwards in the Far East. So we’re going to reconvene. Much of what he’s been speaking about he’s got directly from his own book, “Stirlings, Sentinels and Dakotas.” So, more later.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Percival Robert Court
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACourtPR171211
Format
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00:57:38 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
British Army
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Skegness
England--London
Netherlands
Netherlands--Arnhem
Description
An account of the resource
Percival Robert Court joined the Air Training Corps in March 1941, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at the earliest age of seventeen and a half. Training at RAF Cardington, he became a flight mechanic. He then moved to Skegness to continue into formal training, including lectures on sex education and venereal disease. He states that sex was never discussed and that it was taboo and rumours they were putting bromide in the water. Alongside this, he outlines several examples of social meetings within the base staff, including shared songs and daily prayers at RAF Hednesford, as well as when his father died in 1943 and he relied on his wing commander to help him through the tough ordeal. He then recounts his training and experiences at RAF Hednesford, explaining the very high marks that were required to continue on his mechanic course as well as commonly having to take guard shifts and night operations. Percival was posted to Heavy Conversion Unit 1651 at RAF Waterbeach, of which he then outlines his daily required workings and several experiences with Stirlings and Lancasters. He also sets aside time to remember his brother, who was captured at Arnhem, being imprisoned for the remainder of the war. Based at RAF Halton, Percival took a course that allowed him to be promoted, as well as higher pay, learning information about American aircraft and spending his weekends in wartime London. When the war came to an end, he was given 48 hours to leave the base and no celebration. Percival Robert Court believes his mother saved his life by not letting him go to a grammar school, explaining that if she had, he would have died in an aircrew.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1941-03
1943
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
1651 HCU
civil defence
dispersal
faith
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mechanics airframe
perimeter track
prisoner of war
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Hednesford
RAF Waterbeach
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/PCullingGC1701.2.jpg
9ccfcf6ea9b4b0f1b819b5c4da9c1272
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/761/10758/ACullingGC170906.1.mp3
8091b130f97917b8d23b950424ce8148
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Culling, George Charles
G C Culling
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Culling (Royal Air Force). He trained as a navigator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Culling, GC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Make sure it’s working. Right. Just introduce myself. It’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing George Culling at his home on the 6th of September 2017. So if I just put that down there. What I’ll do is I’ll keep looking over. I’m only just making sure it working.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Just in case the batteries fail or something.
GC: Yeah.
DK: It has happened once.
GC: Yeah.
DK: The batteries stopped. That looks ok. So, what I want to ask you first of all was what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
GC: Before I joined the RAF I was working in a builder’s merchants actually. I left school. Went straight into a builder’s merchants. At the time there was a lot of bombing. I was in Bromley, Kent. I think Biggin Hill Aerodrome was being bombed and my school hardly functioned in that I only went to school Saturday morning. Picked up work. Did it at home and took it back the next Saturday. After that the school was bombed. So really the school was quite interested in really letting the rest of the pupils go as fast as possible so that school could close. So I went in to a builder’s merchants and was in there. And I joined the ATC. Learned about navigation and meteorology and aircraft recognition and so on and waited until my time came which was at the age of about eighteen and a quarter I suppose.
DK: Do, do you think the fact you were under the German bombing influenced you wanting to join the RAF?
GC: Well, I don’t know. One had to do something and I thought this was the most interesting thing for me to do actually. I was always interested once I’d started. I was always interested in navigation. In the, in the ATC it was navigation that I wanted to find out about and although I had a go at a Tiger Moth I had my, I had a few hours of, as I’ve mentioned in my book had a few hours of practice in a Tiger Moth I really wanted to be a navigator so I was quite pleased when I was selected for that. Yeah.
DK: So as you go in then were you, does it work that you’re immediately do pilot training and then you’re sort of weeded out?
GC: Well, what happened was that at that time they weren’t actually recruiting pilots and navigators separately. They had a category called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: And they would be together for about three months. Probably four months. All learning meteorology, navigation, a certain amount about machine guns. Basic stuff but certainly an emphasis on navigation. And after that those who wanted to could have up to ten hours in a Tiger Moth.
DK: Right.
GC: You weren’t forced to do that. Actually, after that was over there was a rather difficult time because we were losing so many air gunners at that time that the authorities thought some of these PNBs should be changed to air gunners.
DK: Right.
GC: That wasn’t a very popular idea. Not because they were afraid of being air gunners but because the pilots, those who wanted to be pilots were very keen to fly. Those who wanted to be navigators wanted to be navigators. But so we all had to be sort of re-tested in a way. I remember I had to do some, some aptitude tests for navigators comparing Ordnance Survey maps with photographs at speed. At speed. You know, had to [laughs] and then we all queued before, I mention this in my book we all queued before a senior officer who would tell us our fate. So a certain amount of tension at that time until people knew what they were going to do. But as you know rear gunners had very, very heavy losses and that was always a problem really to the RAF. Making up those losses.
DK: Was navigation something that came easy to you?
GC: Well, yes I did. I liked it from the start.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I liked it in any form really. I particularly enjoyed it with the stars actually and that’s unusual.
DK: Astro, astro navigation.
GC: Most, most navigators having had radar which made life very much easier you could fix your position quickly with radar. The radar we had was H2S and Gee. Heaven knows what those letters stand for but they did enable you to fix your positions very quickly whereas with the stars it was a longer, quite long business. You needed three separate stars. You had to stand up in a shuddering aircraft and squeeze the trigger. Once you’d got the —
DK: That’s on the sextant is it?
GC: Once you’d got the star —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Captured in the bubble.
DK: Of the sextant.
GC: Yeah. That —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Of the, of the sextant. And that was only the beginning. I mean when you had those three bits of information you’d taken the time to the nearest second of the shot and you had the name of the star. And, and you had the altitude. So with those three pieces of information you could look up the air navigation tables. Usually called Air Almanacs.
DK: Yeah.
GC: These days. And you’d eventually have a line on your Mercator chart somewhere along which you were flying when you took that shot. We had to do that three times so you had three lines which never did intersect.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That would be too much to expect.
DK: You had a little, you had a little triangle where they almost intersected. You took the centre of that triangle as your fix and I mean it was quite a long business but I enjoyed that because it’s just so interesting. The stars are so interesting and I knew, I knew the heaven’s pretty well. I knew my way around.
DK: Is it something you could still do?
GC: Well, I’ve, I’ve probably forgotten quite a lot but there are things that you don’t forget aren’t there?
DK: Yeah.
GC: I know, I know quite a lot.
DK: Presumably astro navigation was quite difficult if the weather’s bad and it’s cloudy and —
GC: Ah yes but you see if you’re flying above twenty thousand feet you haven’t got any clouds composed of of moisture. You’ve only got, well, of moisture yes but they’re ice crystals. Everything is ice crystals.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud that looks like silky wisps that’s always ice crystals. That’s cirrus.
DK: Right.
GC: So the cloud you got there is negligible unless you got thunder clouds. Cumulonimbus. If you got thunder clouds it’s a different matter altogether but normally the sky is clear. Pretty clear above twenty thousand and the stars look wonderful and sparkle beautifully. You never see them like that from, with all the pollution on the ground.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But the, so it was an interesting and enjoyable job actually doing. It’s accurate enough. Nowhere near as accurate as radar.
DK: No.
GC: But it’s accurate enough to get you —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On a long journey. On a long journey it’s good enough. Yes.
DK: So, what about the electronic devices then? H2S and Gee. Did you use those as well?
GC: Oh yes. I mean, I used those in Europe all the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: H2S. People are more familiar with that then they realise. They see it on films. You see, you see something going around on a sort of old television screen.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And you realise you’re looking at illuminated rivers, illuminated coast, illuminated cities. A city would show up as a blob of light and the conurbation would be the right shape so you could identify that city. Very useful when you cross the coast. You see this long line of light. So H2S was very useful. It was map reading above cloud. That’s the whole point.
DK: And the radar scanner’s under the aircraft isn’t it?
GC: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So you’re looking at like a kind of a TV screen in effect. Is that right?
GC: Yes. Yes. So you had these two, as I say rather old fashioned television sets —
DK: Yeah.
GC: On one side of the desks. That was H2S. Gee. I have no idea really what Gee stands for and I’ve no idea how, exactly how it worked. But I can’t remember actually how, how we did it but I know we did get very accurate fixes with Gee. Same principles as H2S really. It’s all a matter of radio pulses receiving —
DK: Gee’s from the ground isn’t it? That’s —
GC: Yeah.
DK: A pulse being sent from the aircraft.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So just going back a little bit you mentioned in your book that you did some training on the Isle of Man.
GC: Yes.
DK: So —
GC: That was my own training. Navigation.
DK: That would have been for the bomb aimers and the navigators would it?
GC: No. I don’t, I was only with navigators then.
DK: Oh ok.
GC: It was the just time I had been with only navigators. Because I’d been in the PNB category.
DK: Yeah.
GC: There were I suppose twenty or thirty of us at the top of the Isle of Man. The Point of Ayre where there’s an aerodrome. And we were there for six months flying all over the Irish Sea. And at the end of that period we became navigators or we didn’t but I think most people did. How’s that?
DK: You mentioned in your book getting lost and ending up over [unclear]
GC: Yes. Well, that’s, you were talking about cloud. If you have, if you have ten tenth stratus cloud, this horrible grey blanket that covers the sky you simply can’t map read. And they told us that we were supposed to navigate using compass bearings. Mainly compass bearings. We could use radio. And if you, you know if you can’t see the ground you can’t. You can’t do it. There was nothing else to rely upon except radio and when that gave way there was nothing. I had to depend on the flight plan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Until we had a break in the cloud.
DK: And you found yourself over Dublin.
GC: We did. Yes. We did. We did. We did.
DK: So what was the Irish response to that then?
GC: Well, we were flying above this stratus cloud for some time and then suddenly we noticed a clearance ahead and then we noticed a few puffs. A few puffs of smoke. So we all, I think the pilot and the two of us because we were two navigators working together we all realised at the same time, you know we’d gone wrong. And the pilot immediately did a hundred and eighty degree turn and I thought, ‘Oh, we’re over Dublin. Good. We know where we are. So this is where we are. That’s where we’d be if there was no wind. I can calculate the wind velocity, work out a new course.’
DK: Yeah. So were the Irish trying to shoot you down or just —
GC: No, I don’t think —
DK: Or give you a warning shot?
GC: Nothing like that.
DK: Just go, go away.
GC: Yes. I don’t think we took it all that seriously except that we thought we’d better move. Yes.
DK: So this was in the Avro Ansons was it you were flying?
GC: That was an Anson. Yes.
DK: What did you think of those aircraft?
GC: Well, they were quite useful for navigation because of all the windows. What were they called? Flying glasshouses or something.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They were quite good for that purpose and it was the first aircraft of the RAF which had a retractable undercarriage.
DK: Right.
GC: We had to turn the handle, I think it was a hundred and thirty seven times to get the undercarriage up. But that was the first one. There was nothing else. All other planes had a fixed undercarriage which of course reduced the speed quite a lot and if, if pilots with Ansons were not bothered to do the winding up —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Which is understandable.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: They would reduce the speed by about thirty knots. That was the calculation.
DK: So, and coming in to land did you have to wind it all back down again or did you —
GC: Well, that’s right. That’s right.
DK: Yeah. Another a hundred and thirty seven to get the undercarriage down.
GC: Well, when we had two navigators working together you see the other one did all the odd jobs.
DK: Right.
GC: Only one did the real navigation. The other one had to do the winding up [laughs] among other things. Yes.
DK: So at the end of your training in, on the Isle of Man then. You’re a fully fledge navigator then at that point are you?
GC: Yes.
DK: So where did you go then? ‘Cause —
GC: Well, we went across to the mainland and I’ve forgotten which city we were in but I, I do remember how we became a crew because I had no idea how it was going to be done. And we went in to this large hall and it was full of airmen. Young airmen who had just passed out. Pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators, air gunners and so on all wandering around sipping tea and eating biscuits. And the idea was we just had to form crews. And that’s what happened. People just got in to conversation with somebody. Other people came along and joined them. They formed crews, and so when that was, when that came to an end we had a crew. But as I explained in the book we started to form a Kentish crew until somebody thought it would be good to have a really good air gunner so we went for one who had the highest marks in his gunnery school.
DK: Yeah. That’s make sense.
GC: We stopped the idea of having a —
DK: And he wasn’t, he wasn’t from Kent then.
GC: He wasn’t from Kent.
DK: No.
GC: He was a Scot actually [laughs] yes.
DK: Can you still remember the names of the crew?
GC: No. I can’t remember them all actually, but I can remember some of them. I wish I’d had notice of this [laughs] I’ve got their names. Some of their names.
DK: That’s alright. Don’t worry.
GC: On the back of an envelope, but, or —
DK: The pilot’s name. Can you remember the pilot’s name?
GC: I mean, there was Jack. The bomb aimer.
DK: Right.
GC: John, the pilot. Skipper. And Alan was one of the, was the rear gunner. I can’t remember them all. Very bad. Very bad. It would have helped you know if, if we’d met up since then but we didn’t because when the atom bomb dropped and all our planes were suddenly grounded.
DK: Yeah.
GC: This happened very quickly, you know. When the atom bomb dropped everybody was suddenly shaken, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: All the plans of the Air Ministries were suddenly thrown. Thrown overboard. And we were sent on indefinite leave and we never saw each other again.
DK: You never saw the crew again.
GC: We didn’t see each other again and I didn’t like that very much.
DK: No.
GC: As you can imagine. We’d been together in the air for hours, you know.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And we also had a social life together.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we were just sent away. And we were called back one by one and told we had to do something else. And we did because those who were the last in were going to be the last out. And the last out meant 1947. Two years later.
DK: That’s when you left. 1947.
GC: That’s when I left.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I left Japan actually. Yeah.
DK: Just going, just going back a little bit. When you’ve met up with your crew you were training on Wellingtons. Is that —
GC: I didn’t meet up with the crew.
DK: No. No. Just going back a bit.
GC: Yeah.
DK: When you first met your crew you were then doing training on Wellingtons.
GC: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
GC: That was the first plane we went on. Yes. There were five of us then.
DK: Right.
GC: On Wellingtons. That’s right. At the [pause] yes, we did that together. I don’t know how long that lasted. And then we went on to, to Lancasters and that’s where we needed two more members of crew. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
DK: Right.
GC: To make our —
DK: What did you think of the Wellingtons as an aircraft?
GC: Well, I mean I know the Wellington was a much well-regarded aircraft in lots of ways. Everybody knows that it could come back from an operation full of holes and still be airborne because of the wonderful geodetic construction. I also know, and I know more now then that I did then that it was very vulnerable to attacks from the side.
DK: Right.
GC: Until guns were fitted at the side. There was a lot of dependence on rear gunning, rear gunners and front gunners really and forgetting about the side.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: And it was very vulnerable. And there were some very, very heavy losses —
DK: Yeah.
GC: To Wellingtons early in the war. As, and they were very heavy losses of all our bombers because they were all in different ways rather deficient. All our bombers were. They were all twin engined as you probably know. Planes like the Blenheim and the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley. They were all deficient in some way and they had fairly heavy losses.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We needed, we needed the Lancasters.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And the other superior planes.
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas.
GC: Sorry?
DK: You mentioned putting your foot through the canvas on the —
GC: Well, that’s right. Yes. That’s right. The Wellington construction is of course of Irish linen —
DK: Yeah.
GC: Stretched over a framework which is duralumin and you’re not intended to walk on it. So there’s this, I thought it was I call it a plank of wood. It was only about that wide, and I never did, I never did use it while I was flying thank goodness. And I was walking along it in the middle of the night, in the blackness of the night alone to check the compass which was kept as far away as possible from magnetic influences.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And I slipped and my foot went through. Which was what was quite inevitable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The reinforced board wasn’t there for nothing.
DK: So were you in the air at the time then were you or was this on the ground?
GC: Oh. All on the ground.
DK: I was going to say.
GC: Had we been in the air I would have been rather concerned [laughs] No, this was a check really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: It was a check of the master compass. Make sure it was functioning properly.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Ok. So you didn’t get in trouble for that then did you?
GC: Well, I can’t remember getting in to any trouble for that actually. I can’t remember anything at all. I’m sure I didn’t. It’s just, you know, in no time at all we were up again in another aircraft.
DK: So, from the, your next bit of training then presumably this was to the Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit it was? Or —
GC: Yes. I always forget it. Can I pause here?
DK: Yes. No. That’s ok.
GC: Maureen.
DK: Yes.
GC: What was my Heavy Conversion Unit? Where I flew in Lancasters. I always forget it.
Other: I don’t, I don’t know what you mean, dear. I’m sorry.
DK: It wasn’t, it wasn’t 1661, was it?
Other: A Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Yeah. Which?
Other: Which airfield?
GC: Yeah.
Other: I could have told you last week.
GC: I could have told you probably a minute ago.
Other: It’s something that —
DK: Well, we can come back to that.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
DK: Lincolnshire. Yeah.
GC: In Lincolnshire.
Other: It was in Lincolnshire. You were probably —
GC: Between, yeah I think we were between. Yeah. I think we were between Newark and Lincoln. I think. Yeah. Swinderby.
DK: Swinderby. Oh right. Ok. Swinderby. Yeah. So it was Swinderby Heavy Conversion Unit.
GC: Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Ok. So and this would have been on the Lancasters then.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve got two extra crew. The flight engineer’s turned up.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And the mid-upper gunner.
GC: Yeah.
DK: So, what were your impressions of the Lancaster then?
GC: Well, I loved the Lancaster. I could, it was, it was so much roomier for me. I mean in the, in the Wellington I felt rather short of space because you know spreading out a chart and all the equipment one has. Also it seemed the Wellington was a bit dark. There was much more light in a Lancaster. So there was light and space. It was more, more comfortable.
DK: Yeah.
GC: When I look at pictures of one now they don’t look very comfortable but compared with the Wellington at the time it seemed to me very, very nice. No, I enjoyed flying in a, in a Lancaster. In spite of its noise. Those four Rolls Royce engines made quite a noise. Vibration and noise.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned in your book as well about various issues with oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: Lack of oxygen.
GC: Yes.
DK: I mean, did you have problems with that at all?
GC: Well yes. With oxygen we had a system cut out and we were about twenty two thousand feet and I don’t think we realised for a time. When we did I think the flight engineer tried to put it right. But the best thing really when that happens is to fly down to nine thousand feet or something like that as quickly as possible because the effect of oxygen deficiency is rather like having a drink too many. You feel rather pleased, rather comfortable, rather sleepy. But of course what’s happening is that your nails are going blue, your heart is beating rapidly and your coordination and clear thinking are suffering. All these things are happening to you. So it’s a very dangerous situation really. And it’s only a matter of minutes before you become unconscious and then death follows doesn’t it? But our, our skipper was very alert and took the aircraft down in good time and I think we were all, all looking rather, rather bad and feeling rather bad at the time. And I think our rear gunner was sick. But we soon recovered.
DK: And you mentioned as well a strange story about you floating out of your seat.
GC: Yeah. Yes.
DK: What happened there?
GC: What interested me about that was this. Everybody knows that being in an aircraft it suddenly drops, then you rise unless you’re strapped in. And when I say dropped I mean a real, we’re dropping a long way. And the opposite of course when you feel that you’re being pressed into your seat when the aircraft suddenly rises. But this was rather interesting because I seemed to leave the seat and float upwards quite gently ‘til I was on the, against the roof and everything on my desk went up with me. And it was all, it was all very gentle. That was my very definite impression and we came down the same way to as the plane entered another whatever it is. It suddenly moved vertically and I came down and back to my seat. It was. Yes, that was what struck me. How comfortable it was. How easy it was.
DK: So, so there was no other crew this happened to then. It was just you.
GC: No. You see, I mean the navigator is in a position with lots of things on his desk that are loose anyway.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And he’s loose in a sense. He’s sort of on a seat and he’s getting up and getting down. Other people are I mean it wouldn’t happen to the rear gunner.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: He’s too tightly [laughs]and I think, I think the pilot and the and the flight engineer probably may have automatically sort of held on or something.
DK: Yeah. So you weren’t prepared for this manoeuvre.
GC: I know I was the only one who floated.
DK: So at this point then presumably you’re, you’re being told the war in Europe is coming to an end.
GC: Yeah.
DK: And you’re told that you’re going to go out to the Far East. Is that how it came about?
GC: Yes. It was, it was always clear that we would be part of Tiger Force. I didn’t know much about Tiger Force except that we, we would be stationed on the Island of Okinawa which had been captured. And I had a fairly clear idea where that was. How far from Japan. And at some stage we were going to fly out there which looking back now seems to me would have been a very hazardous business because of the poor maps, inadequate meteorology, weather forecast and lack of emergency airfields and all those sort of things.
DK: Yeah.
GC: But we’d have got there I expect. Most of us. To Okinawa. That was the plan which was hatched I believe by Churchill and Roosevelt in Ottawa. The Ottawa, Ottawa Conference.
DK: Yeah.
GC: They kept changing their plans but the idea really was that Lancasters and Lincolns would be mainly. They were a bit worried about the fuel side of things. Just for the distances. And at one stage they were going to have the Lancasters in pairs with one of them with the petrol. Another time they were going to get rid of the mid-upper gunner’s turret and have an extra petrol tank there.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Called a saddle tank. So we were unaware of all these ideas. Changing ideas. We just carried on flying long distances and —
DK: So, these long distances then. Where were you actually going?
GC: Well, we were going all over the place actually. At that time of course as it was now the end of the European War, we could go anywhere in Europe.
DK: Right.
GC: And we did, you know. We might, I don’t know, go towards Czechoslovakia, somewhere like that. A long distance. So the total time was probably ten or eleven hours.
DK: So you were trying to replicate a flight to Okinawa.
GC: Well —
DK: To the Japanese mainland with these things.
GC: Yes. Personally, my job was to navigate as accurately as possible using the stars over a long distance.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And it didn’t really matter where you went.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any other training for Tiger Force? I have spoken to somebody else. They mentioned that they had some jungle survival training. Did you have any of that?
GC: No. No. I don’t think any of us had that. I don’t know what sort of training the other members of crew had. We didn’t actually have time to talk much about —
DK: No.
GC: Those sorts of thing in between. But everyone had some kind of special training but nothing like that.
DK: Right.
GC: Nothing like jungle warfare.
DK: So, you’re, you’re all prepared then to go out to the Far East.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Then you hear the atomic bombs have dropped.
GC: Yes.
DK: And the war’s come to a very sudden end.
GC: Yes.
DK: How did you feel about that?
GC: Well, I think the same as everyone else. A feeling of tremendous feeling of relief that the war was over. At the same time a certain amount of bewilderment wondering what’s going to happen to us. And a great deal of joy when we heard we were going on indefinite leave. We didn’t know what indefinite leave actually meant but it sounded good. But we didn’t know it meant, it meant that our crew would disperse forever. We hadn’t really thought about that very much. And I did feel very unhappy about that at the time.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Actually. When I realised that we weren’t going to see each other again.
DK: Yeah. So you did another two years in the RAF then. What were you doing up until ’47?
GC: What happened was I was called back and interviewed by an officer. And he gave me a list of tasks. Jobs. And I said, ‘I don’t like any of those.’ So, he said, he said, ‘Well, there is something else,’ he said, ‘There’s Vocational Advice Service.’ I said, ‘Tell me about that.’ He said, ‘Well, everybody in the RAF now especially those who’ve been in the RAF for six years is probably a bit lost about what to do in civilian life.’
DK: Yeah.
GC: ‘So, we’ve got your Vocational Advice Service. And what we’re going to do is we’re going to train some airmen to administer a whole series of psychological tests to get a profile of everybody’s abilities, aptitudes and interests.’ That’s what I did. I did. There were two of us covering the whole Far East from Burma onwards to Japan.
DK: Yeah.
GC: And —
DK: So did you eventually get out to the Far East then?
GC: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Oh yes. I finished up in Japan.
DK: Right.
GC: I was in Japan for six months. I was with the Commonwealth Occupation Force.
DK: Oh right.
GC: In Iwakuni. Not far from Hiroshima as a matter of fact.
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: Sorry?
DK: Did you visit Hiroshima?
GC: I didn’t actually. No. No. I didn’t. I wasn’t. I wasn’t pushing for that and I didn’t really [pause] we didn’t think much about that really. I was just getting on with my job there.
DK: How did the Japanese treat you as an occupation force?
GC: Well, it varied really. Didn’t have a lot to do with Japanese but if you were dealing with them on a sort of business basis they were quite polite of course, and, yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t socialise with them.
DK: No. No. But they did what they were told then.
GC: I think, I think the Japanese people must have been under shock. Complete shock.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In view of all the propaganda that they’d had over the years under, under their very militaristic regime and so on. And when, when the atom bombs dropped and then capitulation soon afterwards I’m sure they were in a state of utter shock that must have lasted a few years.
DK: And did you see much of the other damage out there at all? [unclear]
GC: No. Not really.
DK: No.
GC: The place where I did see a lot of damage of course was in Rangoon. I was in Rangoon for six months.
DK: Right.
GC: In Burma.
DK: Oh right.
GC: And that was in a terrible state. There were piles, huge piles of rubble in the streets. There were rats everywhere. I was in the old Law Courts which was taken over as Air Headquarters South East Asia. It had many many rats in it. So many rats we had a rat squad. Did nothing but try to exterminate the rats. And the rats almost felt in charge. They would walk along the corridors. Not scuttle. They weren’t hurrying. And they were rats of all shapes and sizes. And they would just walked past you like you were queuing up for the cinema or something like that. But it was in a terrible state and now and again the rats spread bubonic plague.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
GC: Not while I was there but they did sometimes.
DK: So looking back at your time in the RAF you obviously spent many months training to be a navigator. Do you sort of regret that you never flew any operations or [unclear] or relieved?
GC: If the operations at the time, if the normal tour had come I would have just accepted it. I wasn’t relieved that I wasn’t going to do that. No. I think when you’re nineteen you have a different attitude to when you’re, many years later. I was quite happy. I mean we were all volunteers.
DK: Yeah.
GC: We volunteered to do this and had it happened I would have just accepted it. As it didn’t happen I wasn’t particularly relieved and I wasn’t particularly disappointed.
DK: No.
GC: Really.
DK: Yeah.
GC: I was always thinking what’s happening next.
DK: Yeah. So how do you look back in the RAF now? Looking back over these years. Is it something you’re proud of and did it teach you things or help you out in life basically?
GC: Yeah. I, I look back with, with some pleasure and satisfaction really. It, I found, I think I was very lucky to be a navigator you see because I liked it. I was very busy I may say. I was, I never had any time to do anything except work in an aircraft but I liked it and so that was very interesting to me. If you’ve had that experience at nineteen of navigating a massive bombing, a bomber. And it was good to meet the people I met and be with the crew. Yes I think it was quite important really. In a way it launched me into my, my career which was at that time in teaching.
DK: Right.
GC: I was accepted for teaching when I was in Burma.
DK: Right.
GC: And the fact that I’d been a navigator I think was a point in my favour because I hadn’t got much in the way of qualifications in view of my school experience. The bombing and so on. I had, I had a very slim certificate issued by the forces in economics, mathematics and one or two other subjects which was called, which was supposed to enable us to have matriculation exemption.
DK: Right. Yeah.
GC: So if you wanted to go to university you could, you could use this.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As a shortcut. But that’s all I had. So I had to do all my studying afterwards but the, in a way my navigation career gave me, gave me a good start for that I think. In a way. And you know in the ATC. Going back to those days when I was a cadet we did a lot of maths and English apart from you know meteorology and all the RAF subjects.
DK: Yeah.
GC: The, in the ATC in those days a massive amount of money was put in by the Air Ministry and we were busy every day doing something. So I had part of my education in the ATC.
DK: Yeah.
GC: In a sense.
DK: So post-war then you went into teaching then.
GC: I did.
DK: Yeah.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. You mentioned your book as well you had a lot to do with the Aircrew Association.
GC: Well, I didn’t have a lot to do with it. It didn’t form until the 70s as you know.
DK: No.
GC: It formed rather late and I joined it and had some good friends in it. It was a very important organisation because it suddenly brought together people who had very similar experiences and of course it was a very big organisation. It suddenly spread all around the world and there were branches in, in Australia, Canada and so on. Sometimes there were two branches in one city.
DK: Yeah.
GC: As you probably know. But of course people were getting older. I mean people who joined the air training, sorry the Aircrew Association were probably already grandfathers so [laughs] so after a few years membership declined and then got to the point when they had to dissolve the whole organisation.
DK: That’s a shame.
GC: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. Well, I think we’ve covered everything. I’ll stop it there. But thanks very much for your time. That’s been very —
GC: That’s alright. I hope it’s of some use.
DK: Oh, it’s marvellous. It’s been a lot of use. Ok. Thanks. I’ll turn that off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Charles Culling
Creator
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ACullingGC170906, PCullingGC1701
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00:36:26 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Originally working as a builder merchant, George Charles Culling’s town struggled constantly during the war due to the amount of bombing, which eventually forced his school to close. Finding an interest in navigation equipment, George joined the Air Training Corps and learned more about his interests, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at 18, believing it would be the most interesting thing to do at the time. Joining at a period during which the RAF recruited pilot and navigators together, George was sent to a training camp for several months, alongside other pilots, navigators and bomb aimers. However, he recalls a large loss of air gunners during his training and as such, many of his friends and fellow trainees were changed to air gunner training courses. George recounts his experience with navigation equipment and how much he enjoyed it. He names H2S and Gee, claiming that he had no idea what it stood for, nor how it worked exactly, simply stating that it was incredibly accurate. Initially training on the Isle of Man, George outlined his experience with the Anson and gives several pieces of information on the aircraft. He then recalled moving to RAF Swinderby for his Heavy Conversion Unit, explaining his experience with Wellingtons and Lancasters, praising the construction of the Wellington, making observations about its strengths and vulnerabilities. He also recalls the Lancasters being a great deal more comfortable than the Wellingtons. George continued into the Tiger Force unit following victory in Europe, giving information about his understanding of the plans for the Pacific. However, he felt relief when he heard the war was over, alongside confusion at what he would do next and joy at indefinite leave. He was called back in 1947, eventually joining a psychological test service, ending up in Japan. Looking back onto his career, he found a lot of enjoyment as a navigator. He joined the Bomber Command Association in the ’70s, finding a number of friends and joy throughout it.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Japan
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1947
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
aircrew
Anson
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Swinderby
Tiger force
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/765/10766/PDakinF1701.2.jpg
da150b71850375ee4ba3691ca719be94
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/765/10766/ADakinF170918.2.mp3
308c81c30f60ff9f605a4bb4dd4d242e
Dublin Core
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Title
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Dakin, Freda
F Dakin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Freda Dakin nee Palin (b. 1926). She lived in Manchester during the war and was evacuated.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dakin, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt. The interviewee is Freda Dakin. Also present is Rosita [Meladay]. We are at Mrs Dakin’s home at [Buzz] Washingborough and the date is the 18th of September 2017. Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed, Freda.
FD: You’re welcome.
CH: You could start by telling me something about your childhood, where you were about and about your parent’s please.
FD: Well, as you know my name’s Freda Dakin nee Freda Palin. P A L I N. I was one of five girls. I was the fourth of the family. Unfortunately, I’ve lost all my sisters. My Edna was the first one to go. She was only fifty four but she died. And then there was, Francis was my eldest and then Helen who was just twenty months older than me and then she died and I lost my baby sister last Christmas. So, I’m the only one remaining. I was born in Salford which was next door to Manchester and my father was a milkman and in those days they had a milk cart. They didn’t have any cover and he used to go out in all sorts of weather. It was hail, rain or snow. And he was a wonderful father. He wasn’t, how can I explain it? He wasn’t a [pause] he didn’t have the teaching he should have had. He could have been a clever man I think. But he was, as I say always out in all sorts of weather and he always kept a roof over our heads. We always had a good table, a good fire but he was a little bit strict and he never swore. Never swore. But he was strict. And I can remember when we used to be going out and he used to say, ‘You come back to this house, lady, as you went out.’ And I said to my eldest sister, ‘What does he mean?’ She said, ‘You come back a virgin.’ [laughs] And yes, he was very strict you know. We had, and we had to be in at 11 o’clock at night. No matter if we were in our teens, even if we were courting, ‘No lady would be out at this time of the night. No decent lady.’ But as I say he was a good man and I had a good mother. My mother was Irish. She was from Belfast and, but as I say I’ve we had our arguments as sisters usually do. I was evacuated to Accrington, Accrington Stanley and the couple there had no children. They wanted to adopt me and my mother said no. ‘No, I don’t care how many children I’ve got you’re not having her.’ I don’t know why because I was the mug of the family. But yes, I had a good childhood really. Mum and dad were pretty strict but when I think about it it was good. It was a good thing. In those days it was, you know. And as I say then, well during the war when the war started as I say I was evacuated just before the war started. I was evacuated in August and then the war started on September the 3rd as you know. I was evacuated with a friend of mine, Evelyn and I remember it was a Sunday, September the 3rd and Margaret and Norman that had taken us in and said, ‘Now, be very quiet. This is Chamberlain coming on the radio.’ We sat there you see. ‘Now, war has been declared.’ And Evelyn and I looked at each other and Margaret said, ‘Oh dear,’ she said, ‘That means we can’t keep you, dear.’ So, we said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘I’m having a baby.’ Well, in those days when you were eleven year or twelve year old and you used to, we were grinning and nudging each other. ‘She’s having a baby. What’s that?’ So that’s when they found us this couple around the corner at Hyndburn Road, Accrington. Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack. They had no children. So I went to them and Evelyn went next door to the Barnes family and I had a wonderful life. As I say they wanted to adopt me. And I wouldn’t have minded really because I would have had everything [laughs] and then I just went back after the Christmas. My mum wanted me back. She said, ‘I can’t do without her.’ And as I said I went to Grecian Street School and there was quite a lot of Jewish girls there and quite a few from Austria. But they wouldn’t talk and they’ve been smuggled out you know just before the war. They knew it was coming. They were very nice. I’ve got photographs of them. They were very nice people as I say. And then I just started work. Well, you did start work at fourteen in those days. And then of course when the air raid came the site, the bombs were dropping before the sirens came because we said, ‘Oh my God what’s that?’ And then the sirens. So, how they got through the network I do not know. It was horrendous. Mum, ‘Freda, upstairs. Get the blankets and the cushions.’ And I got to the top of the stairs, coming down with the blankets and the cushions fortunately it saved me because a bomb dropped quite near us and it threw me down the stairs and with the blankets and that it saved me. And my dad too. We had what was called an Anderson shelter. They had the Anderson shelter which everybody thought was wonderful because you had a back garden you could do that. There was the Morrison shelter. Now, those were, if you had a back yard or a big dining room they put it in the dining room and you used it as a table and then at night you got under it. That was the Morrison one. And then there was those that had little houses. We had some little houses. They were two up two down and there was no room for either a Morrison shelter or an Anderson shelter so they built a little shelter at the bottom of each street. There might only be a good, a little dozen houses in this streets and then when the sirens went the neighbours all came out and went in these shelters. And of course then with the all clear they all went home. And there was one time and it was near St Andrew’s School and the all clear went and they all come out. They were just coming out and a bomb hit it and it was a flying bomb. They had the Doodlebugs but these were a flying bomb what they did, on parachutes and the planes went out so the all clear went. But these bombs were still dropping and it hit this shelter. They were all killed. It was very sad. Well, as I say we were lucky. We had this shelter and the Blitz as I say it threw me down the stairs which I’m lucky. I’m still lucky. I don’t know why I’ve reached ninety because I was the oddball from the family. I’ve told you before haven’t I? And my dad, bless him he’d made a bucket as a helmet [laughs] and he used to take us down to this shelter one at a time with a piece of metal over our heads from the kitchen down to the bottom of the garden. Make sure we were in the shelter. And then one at a time we went down and he, bless him and of course we all had to sit there and wait. Well, one of my sisters Edna, bless her she’d been to a friends for tea as they called it and of course she was coming home on the bus and the driver got out. Well, we were right near the race course, Manchester Race Course and he stopped there and he said, ‘Right. Not going any further. Can’t go any further. Everybody out. We’re going to the shelter.’ And Edna said, ‘Well, I’m not. I’m going home.’ And he tried to grab her. He said, ‘You’re not in this.’ And she ran for about a mile and of course the back entry and we were all sat there and my mum said, ‘Listen.’ And it was Edna shouting, ‘Dad. Dad.’ And she said, ‘That’s Edna.’ And he got the back gate open and managed to get her in and she collapsed and we thought she’d died. My mum, she said, ‘She’s gone, Jim.’ It’s very sad. She [unclear] she said, ‘Oh, thank God. She’s breathing.’ And she, she ran all the way. She said, the wardens kept saying, trying to grab her. The air raid wardens. Anyway, fortunately she lived. And the next day oh it was horrendous. And my mum I don’t know why but in those days well you couldn’t get toys the same you see and she had a doll and it was broken and she sent it to the Doll’s Hospital in Manchester Piccadilly. And she said, ‘If you want that doll for Christmas you’d better go.’ It was the next day after the air raid [laughs] and we went into Manchester, that was my younger sister and I went. And I can see it now. The rubble in Piccadilly. And it was red more Stretford way and I thought Mr and Mrs Bibby said, ‘Why has your mother sent you out in this?’ Everybody had come for a look and it was still glowing in the, in the distance, and the smoke and the rubble. We were picking our way out and [laughs] the Doll’s Hospital was closed. I couldn’t get it [laughs] I went home but as I say there was a lot worse off than us. A lot worse off. Of course, we had a cellar as well so that we were lucky that way. But me I’m a happy go lucky person really because I used to be out when the sirens were going and my dad used to say to me, ‘I’m going in.’ We called it the Monkey Run. It was the main street. The main road. And we were after the boys you see. And we said, ‘Nah. There’s nothing dropping yet. When they start to drop then we’ll go home.’ But as I say I can see that now I was nearly down the stairs. I remember it. The cushions and falling down the stairs. In a way we can laugh at it now but it was horrendous. But there again hearing the bombs dropping before the sirens were going because we didn’t know what hit us. We never got a window broken. Yeah. And the bombs were dropping right near us and not one of our windows in the house had broken. And I remember once [laughs] the sirens went. There again, we make, ‘Have you got this?’ or ‘Have you got that?’ You know. Of course, when you imagine five girls and a man and woman, you know, yes we’ve got this, got that. My dad taking us down one at a time and we got on the shelter. We said, ‘Oh, it’s quiet.’ My dad opened what little bit of a door we had. No. No. And then he heard the air raid wardens walking down the back yard and he said, me dad shouts, ‘Anything doing yet, mate?’ They says, ‘Where are you?’ He says, ‘We’re in the air raid shelter.’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The all clear went soon after.’ He said. It was over [laughs] We were there two hours. And another time we had this little case with all the policies and what have you and my sister came and her boyfriend was at the side of her and she says, ‘What are you doing down there, Jim?’ He said, ‘Well, what are you doing down there?’ She was sat on the case. So we had some good laughs, you know. And so there again my dad used to say, ‘I’ll go and get a drink.’ We’d say, ‘Well, be careful out there.’ A piece of metal over his head going up the back yard. The back garden. But as I say I can laugh at some things but when we realise how serious it was and I can still feel going down those stairs. I really can. But as I say I’m still here to tell the tale and I’m a lot luckier than a lot of people. A lot luckier. As I say now I’m the only one out of my sisters that’s living and I can tell a tale can’t I, Zita?
RM: Oh, you can tell a tale. Yeah.
FD: But as I say it’s different these days. I suppose nowadays they would just put one bomb on and everybody would go. It’s so different because as I say we could have our laughs and what, you know but there again, ‘You pinched my cushion.’ [laughs] Can you imagine? My dad with six girls. But he was so good with us. I can see him now. ‘Next one.’ [laughs] Going down the back garden, as I say. We were lucky being a family of seven that with our rations we could get a joint of meat at the weekends. You see if you were on your own you’d only get a chop. But if you had all these coupons you could get a roast. So, in a way being a big family helped. That you could get bigger rations and you could share out more. But as I say I remember Gladys, bless her and she was on her own and she said, ‘Oh, I am annoyed.’ We said, ‘Why? What’s the matter?’ Just been in to the Co-op and it was my ration day, she said, ‘For my piece of cheese and she weighed it on the, on the scales and she cut some off.’ She cut, it would be about a quarter of a pound or something, ‘And what she cut off she put in her mouth and eat it and —’ she said, ‘I could have made a sandwich of that.’ [laughs] I said, ‘Oh Gladys, what a shame.’ So it you know we had laughter but can you imagine anybody doing that? I mean if it had been me I’d have said, ‘Oh, go on love. It’s a bit over but it’s for you.’ But she said, I can see it now so as I say being a bigger family we were better off. We could get bigger pieces of this and bigger [pause] and my dad being a milkman he served a lot of Jews in Manchester. The big warehouses. And they used to help him out. And as I say and he used to go to this shop himself, ‘A bit extra for you today Jimmy.’ And he’d say, ‘Thanks very much.’ And as I say we did very well for rations. We never went without a good meal. I felt sorry for those that were on their own, bless them. You know, because they got no extra and as I say I’m a very lucky lady and I thank God that he was there for me and all those who went before me. But I don’t whether I could live through it now. I doubt it. But there again at my age who wants me? [laughs] I’ve got, I’m lucky that I’ve got very good friends and helpers. As I’ve said, I’ve told you before I’m a really lucky lady. I really am. And what health I’ve got for my age I do alright. It’s some memories I can laugh at because my friend and I go down the Monkey Run for the lads even though the bombs were dropping. I’d say, ‘We’d better go in now, hadn’t we?’ And I remember the sirens went and I said to my friend , Grace, ‘Are we going home?’ So, she said, ‘Is there any — ’ ‘No. They’ve not dropped them yet.’ So I went home and my mum as soon as she heard the sirens she was out first down the back garden and I thought, oh, I’ve not heard anything. And we used to have a little Kelly lamp in the kitchen. My dad went out to get some coal and he left the door open a bit and I’m like this with my coat shielding it. He said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘You never know, that could be, that could be a German up there going over.’ ‘Oh, don’t be silly. The sirens would have gone.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘They went half an hour ago.’ I was on the Monkey Run you see. My mother [unclear] ‘Why didn’t you tell us?’ I said, ‘Well, I thought you’d all hear it.’ They were chattering that much that they didn’t hear the sirens. But they didn’t worry me. If I have to go I have to go which that was my attitude and I’m still here to tell the tale aren’t I? And I thank you very much for you coming.
CH: How old were you when the war started?
FD: Sorry?
CH: How old were you when the war started?
FD: I’ve got to think. Twelve.
CH: So you were still at school.
FD: Oh yes.
CH: So what would have been a typical day for you during the war?
FD: What would be what love?
CH: A typical day for you as a school child in the war. When you got up in the morning and go to school.
FD: Yes. Well, when I was evacuated their school they used to go in the mornings and our school would go in the afternoons. And the week after we’d go in the mornings and they’d go in the afternoons. And those, and then when we were at school we would either go to the museum. The teacher would take us to a museum and I remember —
[doorbell — recording paused]
CH: Ok. Freda, we’ll restart again.
FD: Right love. Well, as I say we used to go either to museum or churches and they went to the police station once and I always remember it was a Wednesday. And so I can always say I’ve been locked up because I was in a, I went in a, which the cells were different in those days and he said that’s where, so if we have to sleep in there we had to sleep in there and he locked the door. So, I can honestly say I’ve been locked up [laughs] And then I remember this sergeant and we used to have the gas masks and they were in cardboard boxes and we used to put a piece of string and carry it around your shoulder or you could buy cases for them. Leather cases or cotton cases. Make them posh. And there was this, he said, ‘Now then, something new’s come out. It’s a special powder to take finger prints.’ So, I always remember that’s when this powder came out. It was 1939. No. Yes, it was. 1939. And he said, ‘You see this?’ And it was a plain piece of cardboard and he put this stuff on and you could, you leant in to it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That’s your fingerprints.’ So, I said, ‘So if I pinch that you’d find me out?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ ‘And if I could pinch this?’ And it was a gas mask case but it was like in a crocodile skin. He said, ‘No. We can’t do that yet, love.’ He says, ‘It’s only got to be plain stuff where your fingerprints are. But — ’ he said, ‘We’re working on it.’ So, I know 1939 that’s when that powder came out for fingerprints. And it’s little things like that I remember. And as I say, I was in the church choir for Christmas as an angel [laughs] Nearest thing I’ll ever get to it I think, Zita.
RM: Yeah. I think it is.
FD: But Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack were fantastic with me. As I say they wanted to adopt me because they had no children and then Auntie Annie died and then Uncle Jack died and he left me a little bit of money in his will. So I bought, with part of it I bought a ring and when I look at it I think of them and I’ve got a little photograph of them. And they treated me, oh it was fantastic. Of course, being in, during, before the war we all used cups and saucers, you know. But when I went to Auntie Annie and Uncle Jack’s it was a mug. And the first time she gave me a mug I said, ‘Where’s the saucer?’ [laughs] She said, ‘You don’t have saucers. Only on a Sunday.’ So, yeah she was, oh they did, they treated me rotten and on Friday we used to go to the market. ‘What do you fancy for your tea, lass?’ It was always lass, you see and so she said, ‘Do you like this?’ ‘Do you like that?’ I said, ‘Oh, I like those prawns.’ And she used to make her own ham, her own balm cakes. Warm balm cakes and they was for prawns for me. Oh, it was lovely as I say. And an outdoor toilet. No. No. As I say with a piece of wood with a hole in it and oh God I used to [pause] and I dropped the torch down it once. I said, ‘Uncle Jack. I’ve dropped the torch down.’ [laughs] ‘Eeh lass. What are we going to do with you?’ And Auntie Annie taught me how to darn properly because we used to have to wear long black stockings for the school, you see. Your uniform. And I had a hole and I didn’t bother. I just more or less [laughs]. I was getting my coat on and he said, ‘Ay lass, you’ve got a lump on your leg. What is it? Hey, Annie come and have a look at this. The lass has got a lump on her leg.’ And I said, ‘It’s not. It’s my darn.’ He said, ‘Your what?’ I said, ‘I darned it.’ He said, ‘Oh Annie, show her how to darn.’ And from there I used to weave. She taught me how to weave. Yeah. So, as I say I fell in lucky in a way. Because the couple we had at first, they put us in these houses, because she was having this baby you see. But [unclear] having a baby. I never found out what she had anyway. And he, Norman worked for her father and he was a chauffeur and so on Sundays he could take us out and we used to go out for a drive. Before we found that she had a baby.
RM: So, were you not frightened, Freda?
FD: Sorry?
RM: Were you not frightened?
FD: Me? No.
RM: At that age?
FD: No.
RM: When you were going to school and things.
FD: Nothing would frighten me now, Zita
RM: I know you don’t get frightened about many things but that as a child you weren’t.
FD: No. No.
RM: You and your friends
FD: No. No. It never frightened me. Because as I say you used to walk on the Monkey Run and they’d say, ‘The sirens have gone.’ ‘Oh well, if they drop a bomb we’ll go in.’
RM: And they say children don’t feel fear don’t they as much?
FD: Well, no. I never felt it, you know. Most likely would have done had I, if I’d been out in the Blitz.
RM: Yeah.
FD: But I wasn’t. I was inside you see. But as I say the bombs were dropping before the air raid sirens had finished.
RM: But you saw a lot of the damage that had been done.
FD: Oh yes.
RM: So did that not frighten you?
FD: No.
RM: Once you realised what these bombs could do?
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No. No, I’m just in, I don’t know. If I went tomorrow it’s God’s will. I go to church, you see. But no. I think what has to be has to be and like I had four sisters. Edna, bless her the one that we thought she’d, she was only fifty four when she died and a bigger Christian you couldn’t wish to meet. But somebody said, ‘Well, God’s taken her to spend her spirit down to somebody else.’ No, it doesn’t. No. When I saw all the smoke and the redness and I thought it was a shock in a way.
RM: More of a shock than anything.
FD: Yes. It’s horrible. I mean you could, as I say it was still smouldering.
RM: Yeah.
FD: When I was walking in the Deansgate, in Piccadilly. And of course I was being more nosy than anything.
RM: Curiosity more than anything.
FD: It was. I was thinking what had happened. It wasn’t as though I was thinking oh that’s [unclear] You see, you know me. Take it or leave it. But no I can see it now and Mr and Mrs Bibby and I can, and as I say stood in Piccadilly and I thought oh God and the fires are still burning. So it was horrendous really because it was not just a couple of bombs. It was bomb after bomb after bomb. And what it was, where we lived we lived by the River Irwell and it was the Broughton Foundry. It was where they made the ammunitions and my sister worked there. Edna. Instead of going in the Forces she was called up, see. Francis had a baby. So I think they were after that. Broughton Copper Works it was called and that’s where the munitions, some of the munitions were being made. Ammunitions. And the river, they used to always go for a river because that’s where they knew where they were making them and that’s where they were trying to drop them. They were getting them in Manchester itself you see. And the night before the Blitz Bernard my husband where he worked had the Christmas dinner at Victoria Hotel on the corner and that went completely. Fortunately, it was the night before. Had they been there because it started at 6 o’clock at night they would have been all killed.
CH: It was just before Christmas.
FD: Yes.
CH: Yeah.
FD: Yes. It was just before Christmas. And by the way I’ve got a book. I don’t know if you’d like it or not it’s on the Blitz.
CH: We’ll just pause for a moment there.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. Thank you, Freda.
FD: I was happy go lucky. Nothing worried me. And my mum said, ‘You can’t go out in this. What if the sirens go?’ I said, ‘Well, if they go they go don’t they?’ You see, and she, ‘Don’t be so cheeky.’ Oh, I could give cheek like that you see. And I said, ‘Alright. I’ll come in when the sirens go.’ But then of course I tell lies. I’d say, ‘Well, I didn’t hear them go.’ And Grace my friend she was the same. She said, ‘What are we going home for?’ She says. ‘To sit with them?’ You see. No. I was such a, it wasn’t, nothing worries me now because what has to be has to be and I thought, I said, ‘Well, if we get some we’ll go in if the bomb drops.’ And that’s us you see. We went out every night and occasionally there was a couple of lads worked and they were supposed to be looking after their so called Works and they’d say, ‘Go on. We’ve got a shelter.’ But nothing bad happened believe you me. We used to just go. We used to have a laugh and a joke but in those days there was nothing like that with sex or anything. And then we used to say, mum would say, ‘Where have you been sheltering?’ I’d say, ‘Well, we went in the shop doorway.’ And as I say we told lies. But we didn’t, we were in this shelter with the lads. But do you blame me? I mean to me I might have only had a couple of days left. I thought I might as well have a bit of fun while life lasts.
RM: Was there no cinemas or anywhere to go for a drink or —
FD: Oh, yes.
RM: Anything like that Freda?
FD: You could have. There were cinemas going but in those days you see they closed at a certain time. There was no evening. Nothing like today.
RM: No evening matinees or anything.
FD: Oh ,yeah. Yeah. But I mean money was tight as well.
RM: Yeah. Yeah.
FD: I mean, I know it was only a couple of pence to go in or fourpence, the old fourpence but if you’ve spends when I was working. When I started work I think my wages was eight shillings or nine shillings a week and my mam, and then my mother gave me my tram fare out of it and my spends was a shilling. Five pence a week. And that I had to, well my mum kept, as you called kept me. She looked after you until you were twenty one and when I was twenty one I gave her just so much for keeping me so the rest was mine. So I used to get about a shilling. Two and six. Twelve and a half pence. And that was my spends for a week. And I had to buy different things with all make up and stuff but she kept me in dresses and clothes.
CH: How old were you when you started work?
FD: Fourteen.
CH: Could you tell me something about that?
FD: About work? Well, I worked for a place called John Noble’s which was one of these clubs. You know, the what do you call them. Like —
RM: Like a catalogue type.
FD: Catalogue. And it was horrendous. I used to, I was just the one who had to go to each department with the orders and it used to be every half hour I was up and down the stairs and the flights of stairs. They wanted one department then I’d come back. They’d say, ‘Here’s another one.’ And I’d go up and down the stairs. It was about eight shillings a week I got. Mum paid for my bus fare err tram fares. A shilling a week. Five pence a week was my spends. So then when I finished there I didn’t like that because it was two tram cars. And I went to work at Abel Heywood’s, and I got I think it was a bit more. I got about ten shillings a week on that and I stayed there for about four or five years. I disobeyed the rules because you weren’t supposed to go on holidays without permission and one girl was going off on holidays with her parents so I thought well if she can go so can I. So I took a week off work and got the sack.
RM: So did the, did the war not affect your job, Freda? Did you have to come home during the day or —
FD: No. No. Oh no. I had to go work.
RM: The trams never stopped or anything like that.
FD: No. But so you —
RM: You could always get to work.
FD: Well, we were so close to Manchester we could walk in to —
RM: You were walking distance.
FD: Yes. But, no and then of course I got the sack from that. And then I got to work with the electrical place. It was quite nice but I didn’t like that. But I worked at Abel Heywood’s for quite a while which I liked. It was newspapers and stuff. I liked that very much and I had nice friends there but as I say there was Hilda. Hilda [Beavis] she, she was a thief and a liar because I left. They gave me, they used to come around, it was an old fashioned firm. They used to come around with your wages in a little tin on a tray and you’d say, ‘That’s mine.’ Freda Palin you see. Take your spends out. Your wages out. Look at it. ‘That’s right.’ Put your tin back again. They didn’t give you a wage packet. And I remember leaving, it was three pounds something in the, in my drawer because I used to be a typist, and I got home. Mum said, ‘Where’s my — ’, ‘Oh, I’ve left it at work.’ So my friend and I were going out. The dance clubs were still open, you know. If the sirens went you had to go.
RM: You met quite a few Forces men though didn’t you at the dances? You told me.
FD: You what, darling?
RM: You met quite a few of the Forces men at the dances you told me.
FD: Oh, I did. Yes. I met Ron. Yes. We used to go to the YWCA. It was, there was the YMCA men only. YWCA ladies only. But when the war was on you could go in either. Both of them. And of course we volunteered to help on the counters to serve tea and that so I met quite a lot of Forces. Ron Crawford, Crawford Biscuits, he was one of the heirs for that. Yes. My dad when we used to go out we had to clean. I had to clean the floor before I went out. We’d take it in turns and my dad said, ‘Don’t forget the corners,’ because we had no fitted carpets in those days. And I said, ‘I’ve got a date at 8 o’clock.’ He said, ‘If he thinks anything of you he’ll wait for you won’t he?’ And of course when I got there the girls would say, ‘Ron’s getting upset,’ they said. And I’d say, ‘My dad made me clean the floor.’ And they says, ‘Oh, he was worried over you.’ I said, anyway he went. I wrote to him for a while and that was it. The one I really loved was, he was called Robert. Oh, he was lovely. Robert [Souter] Swinton. So, I met quite a few men there and I used to wait on the counter and serve. So, in a way I had a happy life.
RM: Is it like they show on the television then Freda? In the films that you see with the Forces people and and you ladies all dancing and having a good time?
FD: Oh yeah.
RM: It was just very much like that.
FD: Yes. Yeah. And I went out with an American as well. Oh, my friend Grace she was a daredevil really. Like me. And two Americans came up to us and they said, ‘Will you come? Would you like to join us? We’re going up for a meal.’ So, we said, ‘No, thank you.’ So they said, ‘We’re harmless. Honestly.’ They said, ‘We booked this café for the Americans.’ He said, ‘We provided the food but we can’t go in unless we have a lady friend with us.’ And it was next to the Odeon Theatre. I can see it now. And we looked and said ok. And they said, ‘You’ll definitely be safe with us.’ So we went in and of course in those days they had ham and everything you could imagine. A piece of ham and tinned fruit. Oh, it was fantastic. We were looking at these cakes and they did because I remember getting to the door and they said such a squadron or something. So, she said, ‘Have you got partners?’ And they said, ‘Yes,’ and we had to show our faces. They said, ‘Well, you can come in.’ So we had, oh it was fantastic. When I got home, when I was telling my mum so I said , ‘And they had peaches.’ She said, ‘Where had they get those from?’ I said, ‘They’re out of a tin. What do you think?’ She said, ‘Don’t be so cheeky.’ Yeah, so I, oh I’ve met all sorts and everybody. To me I had a wonderful time. I wasn’t frightened. I enjoyed. Grace, my friend though she used to go a bit too far and I said, ‘No. No. That’s, that’s too much for me.’ She was too much of a daredevil really but and of course my dad. I don’t know whether I said to you, ‘You go out of this house the same way as you come in. A virgin.’ Oh, I daren’t. I daren’t. But yes. I I think about it my first work as I say John Nobles. I think they’ve gone now though. Two tram cars. Then Abel Heywood’s which I liked very much. And then there was this electrical place. And then I went to [unclear] which I liked that very much. It was one of these big typings, typings out and they had these whacking big machines. But I was there for about nine years. No. It wasn’t to be nine years. No. I was there the longest anyway because I got married from there and then I had Robert. But in those days they wouldn’t take you back after you’d had a baby. It’s not like now they’ll keep your job open for so long you see but I didn’t mind. I had my son. And, and then we lived with my mum and dad for a couple of years. Then we got a rented house. When, I think about it an old man had it, this house and he used to live and eat and sleep in one room and my sister when she was looking at it, she said, ‘Fancy having a black ceiling.’ I said, ‘That’s soot.’ [laughs] The gas man [unclear] out to here when he walked in. We spent about three hundred pound doing it up and she said, ‘You stupid fool.’ I said, ‘Why?’ It’s around the corner room from my mum’s.’ Rented. She said, ‘Yes, but you could have put that down as a deposit for a brand new house.’ Which you could have done in those days because I mean the house I bought in Stockport wasn’t quite two thousand. And I mean, that would have helped us through but I never bothered but, and then had my son there and then we moved to Stockport.
CH: If I could just go back to the war. What were you doing for celebrations on VE day?
FD: Not a lot really. No. Was it Francis had the television? No. No. I didn’t do a lot really. You went in to Manchester but they were all kissing and cuddling. I couldn’t be doing with that. No. No. I didn’t. I can’t remember much about that. It was just a quiet day for me.
RM: It sounds like a daft questions Freda but what happened to all the gas masks? Did you have to hand them all in? All the gas masks.
FD: I think we did. I think we did. Yeah.
RM: You had to hand them all in.
FD: We all had a special box for them.
RM: And the you see it on the television. With all these boxes and everybody had to carry them everywhere.
FD: Oh, they did.
RM: And all this but and such like as these programmes on the telly. The Antiques Roadshow and such like and they all get you know this is a gas mask from so and so but what happened to all the stuff? They couldn’t hand it all in.
FD: Must have done. Must have done because we didn’t have any left. We didn’t have.
RM: And you carried it to work and everywhere.
FD: Oh yeah. You had to carry them to work. Oh yeah. They were in a cardboard box with a piece of string on.
RM: Yeah. I’ve seen them but, yeah.
FD: And then you could buy these lovely covers.
RM: Did you ever have to use yours?
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No.
RM: No.
FD: No. Never had to use it [unclear] but there again by the time you got them out of the box and that you could have been gassed.
RM: Yeah. Yeah.
FD: If they’d have dropped the gas bombs.
RM: Yeah.
FD: But I don’t, I can’t remember any, anything where they were dropped. I don’t think they dropped —
RM: No.
FD: Much in England.
RM: Well, they show you sometimes where people have them on. You see it. But I just wondered if you’d ever had to use it.
FD: I don’t think they wanted to kill. It was more the munitions they were going after because of this Broughton Copper Works that were making them and as I say it was nearly all the rivers they were going for. They knew there was factories down by the river. And there was other places as well you see. So we were right near the River Irwell and as I say they could have[pause] and that’s where we, the windows did rattle. I’m not saying that. But why we never got one window broken. Some did. But I don’t know what it was but it was and we used to just sit there. And my dad, one at a time down in the [pause] Edna, how she got through it I don’t know at all because she worked at the Broughton Copper Works as well. You see with Francis with being married because they didn’t take them into the Forces or anything then because I said, of course in a way I was dying to be eighteen to go in the forces. I said, ‘Oh, I’m going in the forces when I’m, when I’m eighteen,’ I said, ‘I’ll go in the Air Force.’ My cousin said, ‘No. You’re not.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘You know if you go in the Forces you’re there just for the officer’s ground sheet.’ I says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘You are,’ he says, ‘You’re there for the officer’s ground sheet, you youngsters.’ That’s what he said. So I never went but then again it was over and done with by the time I was —
RM: My [unclear] never said that.
FD: Oh, well maybe she was [laughs] My friend. She was in the Forces.
RM: She was Scottish. She was in the WAAF wasn’t she?
FD: And she was in the WAAF and she met, that’s where she met Jack. Her husband and of course I said to her once. She said, ‘No.’ But there again there were a lot going in. I don’t know. So, my mum said, ‘She’s not going in. She’s not going in.’ But I wanted to go in actually. I think I’d have enjoyed it better. I don’t know. But then I became very plump. I was thirteen stone at one time wasn’t I? You saw my plump. No, but I’ve lost a lot of weight. But anyway I can’t say it was horrible because I enjoyed it with my friend, you know. As I say, on the Monkey Run we used to have fun.
RM: I suppose your age. I suppose you found it exciting in a way.
FD: Well, I did because my parents were a little bit strict you see. And as I say my dad and mum were strict and to be out on my own and I felt, oh they won’t come out looking for me. Not in this. So, I was obviously a dare devil. And my friend especially, she was, oh and it was during the war they had the tram cars running and we’d been in the YWCA and we’d met, well this one met my friend she said, ‘I’m going to the railway station with him.’ They were, they were based at Heaton Park all the RAF men, and they all had little white flashes on their caps. You knew they were aircrew. So, she said, ‘I’m going. His train’s at ten to eleven.’ She said, ‘Wait on the bridge for me,’ she said, ‘I’ll make sure he’s on that train.’ And our tram car was at 11 o’clock. I’m stood there and this man sidles up to me. ‘How about it, darling?’ So, I said, ‘Clear off.’ And he’s sidling up and he says, ‘Go on, darling. It won’t take long.’ And I didn’t know, as true as I’m sat here I didn’t know what he was meaning. And he says, ‘I’ll pay you more tonight then your boss does in a week.’ And I thought what the hell does he mean? What can I do? I hadn’t the foggiest idea and he kept on and when my friend came you see the tram came. I said, ‘Don’t leave me on my one again,’ I said, he was this [pause] ‘Surely you know what he wanted don’t you?’ I said, ‘No. What did he want?’ And she told me. I went berserk. ‘Don’t leave me again.’ He must have thought I was a prostitute [laughs] I got the shock of my life when I found out what he wanted.
RM: Was he an Air Force man? Was he in —
FD: No. He was just an ordinary civvy.
RM: Oh, he weren’t a Forces man.
FD: You see Grace had gone to see her friend, her boyfriend off at the airport err at the railway station and I’m stood there just queuing up with all the others and he’s sidling up to me and pushing my shoulder. And I was, ‘Leave me alone. Leave me alone.’ I didn’t know. I didn’t know what prostitutes were. And she was a daredevil because there was Lewis’s Arcade and the prostitutes used to wait in there and they all had their certain spot you see and going through the Arcade with Grace she said, ‘Oh aye, she’s got one.’ I said, ‘What?’ She said, ‘Look. A fella has just picked her up. I’m going to follow them.’ I said, ‘You’re not.’ She said, ‘I did. I went and followed them down this back entry,’ she said, ‘It wasn’t very nice.’[laughs] I said, ‘What are you talking about?’ She was very broad. She did things I would never dream of. No. No. And I said, ‘Oh Grace.’ She said, ‘Well,’ she said, ‘It’s their own fault.’ And no one, Lewis’s Arcade as I say was open and we went, Bernard went through there once and there was these prostitutes and he was meeting me at the Palace Theatre and he said, ‘Oh, I’ve just been offered a nice job.’ I said, ‘What?’ he said this prostitute come and with the gloves under his chin, ‘Hello sweetheart. I’ll make you very comfortable for tonight.’ He said, ‘Oh, I’ve got a wife waiting for me. She can do that.’ I said, ‘You cheeky monkey.’
CH: How did you meet your husband?
FD: Sorry?
CH: How did you meet your husband?
FD: Through my brother in law. My eldest sister. Jim. They worked there. Jim and Bernard worked together and my brother in law came home, he said, ‘Bernard’s been asking about you.’ I said, ‘Who’s Bernard?’ He said, ‘ [unclear] So I said, ‘I don’t know Bernard.’ And a couple of times, ‘Bernard’s been asking about you.’ I said, ‘I don’t know Bernard.’ And he said, anyway they had a very old fashioned workplace. It was an optical place and you had to go up these creaking stairs, just like Dickens. And a little window. You had to knock on it and it was slid away. And I had to go and give a message to my brother in law and I knocked on this window and he said, ‘Yes?’ I said, ‘Can I speak to Mr Bateson, please.’ And when he’d gone Jim says, ‘That’s Bernard.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I didn’t know. I never met him before.’ He said, ‘You have.’ ‘I haven’t actually.’ So they invited me to a church dance. We had a church dance, and he was a very quiet man, wasn’t he?
RM: He really was. Yeah.
FD: Very quiet. He was daft as a brush. He was useless, hopeless and helpless. He couldn’t knock a nail in straight and he couldn’t boil an egg. It’s true. Honestly, he couldn’t as I say, but he was a very good husband. He thought the world of me didn’t he?
RM: Yeah.
FD: He did. He just worshipped me. And I remember when we were living with mum and dad and we went, were going to church it was only around the corner and he said, ‘I don’t feel so —’ [pause] I said, ‘oh, don’t bother coming, sweetie.’ I said, ‘I’ve left you a couple of eggs there.’ When I come home he said, ‘You didn’t tell me how to cook them.’ [laughs] I said, ‘You stupid fella. I said, ‘I cooked them before you came down.’ He was. He was useless but as I say a very good husband. He would never, he would never have a chequebook because he said it’s too easy and it had to be paid with cash every time. He said, ‘If you have a chequebook it’s too easy, Freda.’ So we were never in debt. We always had good food on the table. A roof over our heads. We used to have little holidays, big holidays when Robert left home. So, and then he was, he was eighty four when he died. He had a very bad heart. I remember him at the table when there was just the two of us he says, ‘Ooh, what have you put in that dinner?’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Indigestion.’ I said, ‘My cooking’s not that bad. You’ve had it for how many years?’ And, and then when we were, of course I used to do all the decorating and he was sat on the stairs and he said, ‘Oh. Indigestion.’ And then I was at work [laughs] he never knew how to say words because I was, I used to work in a Post Office and they said, Bernard. And he said, ‘They’re keeping me in, love.’ I said, ‘Why? Where are you? At the police station?’ He said, ‘No. At the hospital.’ he said, ‘I’ve had another.’ He said, ‘I’ve had three heart attacks.’ And he had about twelve altogether. He had a pacemaker and that. He died. It’s twelve years this year.
CH: Did you court for very long when you first got together?
FD: Yes. Well, we, I got, we got engaged when I was twenty one and I got married at twenty three and I had Robert when I was twenty eight. I was married five years before I had Robert. Unfortunately, my son took his own life.
CH: I’m sorry.
FD: But as I say we got through. And I’ve got very good friends. I’m very fortunate with that. I’ve got a lot of friends haven’t I? This is, this is my helper. She’s cheeky. Very very cheeky. Could knock her head off sometimes.
RM: Just look, this lady’s taping you so be careful.
FD: Oh, sorry [laughs] Well, it’s the truth. She wanted the truth. She’s getting it. I mean you’ve turned up for me today haven’t you sweetheart.
RM: Of course I have.
[recording paused]
FD: No. There was none dropped right outside in the church or anything. It was more the vibrations we got because we could hear them rattling. And there was a little bit in the middle of Salford and Manchester which [unclear] used to go up around over the bridge into Manchester. It was the same. You could walk it. So it was nearly all there that got it because they were after this, the Broughton Copper Works. So, as I say we just got the rattling of it and the vibrations. We’d say, ‘God, that was a near one wasn’t it? That was a miss.’ But no. And as I say with being in that shelter they were the safest of the lot. The Anderson shelter, Morrison shelter and then the little shelters outside. It was that, it was to me actually when they say little shelter it was I don’t know why, I can’t understand it because they were only like a little brick shelter. They weren’t dug into the ground. They were just like a little house where a lot of people could go. So you might as well have stayed in your own house. I mean that was at least two floors high. I mean, so unfortunately this flying bomb, whatever it was called dropped on to the shelter itself that wiped them all out. But I know people say you were lucky with the Anderson. Some had put them in themselves and did it themselves they got flooded out with water. We were lucky, the corporation came and did mine. Ours. Because my dad couldn’t do it. So they did it and it was the way it was faced. It was a blessing really. I can see it now but it started to smell musty and we used to put carpets down and oh God that smelled.
RM: It must have been very cold and dark.
FD: Well, when there’s a few of you, Zita there’s, you’re all, when you’re all breathing it’s not too bad.
RM: Not too cold.
FD: But if there’s only two of you.
RM: It would be cold.
FD: You know. But we used to take travelling rugs with us and cushions. We never, we didn’t leave those in the shelter. We took those out with us. But the bit of carpet, we were always changing that. And newspapers used to be in as well. They used to, you’d wrap those. It was amazing how you could keep warm. But my dad bless him he used to go up and say, ‘I’ll go and get a drink.’ ‘Be careful dad. Do be careful.’ You know. ‘Oh dad, don’t go. Don’t go.’ But yes he used to go and make us drinks. And did I tell you when my mum was petrified. She was, bless her. And as I say air raid sirens had gone and I came in and they were all there. I thought, oh my God she’s braving it. And she was chatting away to them all and the little Kelly lamp I was trying to shield. ‘Oh, the sirens would have gone,’ they said, ‘If there was anything,’ because a plane was going over and I’m shielding this little Kelly lamp and I said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘The sirens went half an hour ago.’ ‘Oh, why didn’t you tell us,’ they said. They were gabbing that much they couldn’t hear them.
RM: Would you have during, during the day or during the night?
FD: Oh, the evenings.
RM: Evening.
FD: It was in the evenings when it started going and that’s what we couldn’t understand about the Blitz because the bombs had dropped before the siren had finished so they must have got through somehow. I don’t know how they did it.
RM: Did you see the planes? Did you ever see them?
FD: Oh no. You could hear them.
RM: You could hear them but you couldn’t actually see them.
FD: Because to us the German planes they had a beat in them [humming] Ours seemed to [humming] ours seemed to be a smoother hum or drum than the Americans err the Germans. They seemed to have a bit of a pause [humming] We’d say, ‘That’s a German.’ The next thing we knew a bomb had gone off. So how they got through, those bombs had come down after they’d gone I don’t know but I know they said they put them on, there was a Doodlebug and these other bugs they put a little parachute on them. Well, little, it must have been a whacking big parachute but they must have been slowed down because when I think, I thought well, how do they do it? Because when you see an airman jump out of a plane they come down, seem to come down a lot faster before the plane can go in. I thought, well I know they come down a bit slower in the end so there must have had special reasons. They must have made a special bomb to come down that bit slower. And the, and the parachutes must have, I know they must have helped them. But I mean as I say the all clear has gone. You think you’re alright. The next thing there’s a big thud. It must have been horrendous. But there again it hits you wouldn’t know anything would you?
RM: Did you lose any friends?
FD: No. No. Not that way. Oh yes. Yes. There was somebody down, down Earl Street but they were away at the time. But none, no. None.
RM: None of your —
FD: Not directly.
RM: Friends.
FD: No. We didn’t see they’d gone during, the only thing is I would say not friends but we just knew them. The locals.
RM: Yeah.
FD: That this bomb had dropped on the outside on the shelter. To me as I say it was just like a brick shelter. Well, you’d be better in your own home. It’s unfortunate unless it was strengthened but there again of course if you’d got a two floor building that top building, the top floor would save you from the other one but this was right on it. It’s just a pity that they were all coming, well they’re, even if they’re inside they would have. Another two or three minutes they’d have been in their own home. But it was just unfortunate. But how I can explain it? I do worry sometimes Zita but I was a happy go lucky. What happened happened to me. I’m one of these now. If it happens it happens. It’s, you know it’s not as though you can control it. What’s got to be has got to be. I’m a fatalist. But as I was saying I was happy go lucky then. And of course when you were a teenager in those day it was all boys, boys, boys. I didn’t mind but my mum used to worry as much, well worry me more and think, oh God, she’s at it again. She couldn’t do anything. She used to say, oh you know, and hush, hush. I’d say, ‘What are you hushing for?’ But yeah, it’s I think I could go through it again in a way but there again I don’t know. Of course these days it would be a lot worse. I mean one bomb would kill the lot of us, wouldn’t it?
CH: You were talking about your mum and you were saying that you never went hungry. What sort of food did your mum prepare considering it was rationed?
FD: Well, that’s it. With being a big family she could get a joint of meat.
RM: But what else did you get during the week. I mean —
FD: Well, we had —
RM: I mean meals during the week.
FD: That’s what I was saying. With dad being this milkman he was lucky. He used to serve this shop. What was it called? Anyway, it’ll come to me. And they used to, ‘Alright, Jimmy,’ and they used to put a bit of extra butter in for him. But there again if you think if you were on your own you’d most likely get a pack of butter it would last you about a fortnight. But if we, there were seven of you got a lot more for a week. You’d get more for a week and my mother used to say, ‘If you have butter you don’t have jam and if you have jam you don’t have butter.’ And my sister used to say, ‘I’ll tell you what mum. Butter that side, jam that side and then put them together.’ [laughs] That’s how we lived. And of course I didn’t like, ‘Oh, she doesn’t like that. Can I have you share.’ ‘Can I have your share.’
RM: So what would you, came home, say if you’d been at school twelve thirteen year old what would, what meal would you come home to in the week?
FD: A proper meal.
RM: What would you have for your breakfast say? Your lunch or tea.
FD: Well, well then we didn’t bother with breakfast. Used to have a piece of toast or bread and jam. Even then. Even now I don’t. But then for dinner my mum would make a little dinner. For tea anyway for us all because as I was saying we were lucky and also I think Mr Parkes liked my dad because he used to wink when he was wrapping something up you see.
RM: What about vegetables? I mean we hear that you couldn’t get vegetables and things.
FD: Oh no. Well, a lot of people used to grow their own.
RM: They did? Even in Manchester?
FD: Yes. Oh, yeah.
RM: Yeah.
FD: They had their own little back. I mean we could have done. My dad started something in the back garden but he never finished it. Oh, an apple tree. But he tried to grow an apple tree and then Edna, bless her she said, ‘It wants pruning.’ He said, ‘It does not.’ And he always, his chest used to always come out and he’d say, ‘I’ve told you girls it does not. Nature takes its own course.’ We’d say, ‘Right, dad.’ And Edna winked at us once. A couple of weeks later she got some crabapples and tied them on. She said, ‘Watch it, girls.’ We were all there. I can see it now. ‘Dad. Dad you’re right. Nature’s taken its own course.’ And he went out and he said and his hand went on his hips, ‘I told you girls nature takes its own course. Now, look at that for instance.’ And we said, ‘Wait for it.’ And we were all ready. And he went up and he said, ‘Oh hallup,’ because oh hallup. They’re crabapples. And they were hung with cotton [laughs] We flew out the back garden. He said, ‘I’ll give it you girls.’ But he took it all in good fun afterwards. He was such a gentle man. He was. But he was very strict as I say. As I say he made me clean the floor before I went out and you had to have your manners. Oh yes. I remember once saying to him at the table, ‘Can you let me have the salt?’ He said, ‘Pardon?’ I said, ‘I want the salt.’ He said, ‘Pardon?’ I said, ‘I want the salt.’ ‘Pardon?’ And he put, he says, ‘I can’t hear you. What are you saying?’ I said, ‘Can I have the salt, please?’ He said, ‘Now, I can hear you.’ And I felt like that. He made us have our manners and you had to say thank you, goodbye, goodnight, God bless and take us up. Oh, and being a terraced house and the open fire, had a little fireplace upstairs in the house in the bedroom. Used to take a shovel full of red hot coal up the stairs. It was a good job it didn’t fall off and it’s winter and we all had a bath and he used to go down with the nit comb ever week. Oh, he used to make sure we were all cleaned. ‘Are you ready?’ And we were stood in line. Winter. A spoonful of hot water, whisky and sugar. A spoonful each. We used to all go upstairs. Kneel at the bottom of the it was a giant bedstead. It was a king size and we all dashed for the middle of this bed because our feet were near the fire. Hands together. Keep your eyes closed. ‘Now then. Are you ready? Our father — ’ And we all had to say the prayers and I always remember saying, ‘Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the Lord my soul to keep. And if I die before I wake I pray the Lord my soul to take.’ And I always remember when I was saying that when it says if I die before I wake does it mean I’m going to die tonight. And he said, ‘Right. Bed.’ And then we all used to have our bed. He was, he was a good father. Strict but very good to us. Very good.
CB: I imagine he’d have to be strict having five girls.
FD: Yes. Yes. Well, actually he there was six girls but the first one was still born. It was, they got married in 1918 and my father had double pneumonia in 1919. And of course in those days neighbours went and helped you and it wasn’t Fredas and Marys and Jeans it was Mrs so and so, Miss Jones, Mrs Middleton you see, all came and helped. And my father was dying of double pneumonia and the doctor was there and he said, ‘I’m afraid he’s died.’ And he said, ‘I’ll go up to the surgery to get the certificate.’ And of course my mother was eight months pregnant and the neighbour’s there and he’d just got to the corner of the street and then the neighbour went around. He said, ‘He’s breathing.’ So he came back and he was breathing and he said, ‘I’ve just been to heaven and it’s absolutely beautiful. Let me go.’ And they said, ‘Well, think about your new baby coming.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Heaven’s absolutely gorgeous. Don’t be frightened, girls,’ he used to say to us. And then the next day he said, ‘How’s our baby?’ And his father was dying of cancer in the parlour and that was cancer of the bowel. My mum had to see to that. She was four foot eleven and a tea leaf. She was only small. She had my father dying. Well, he died. He always swore he died. And then she was eight months pregnant and the day after he said, ‘How’s our daughter Fanny?’ They said, ‘Oh, the baby’s not born yet.’ So, he said, ‘Yes, it is. She’s got golden curls like you Fanny.’ She had gorgeous hair. ‘It’s got all curls around its head.’ So he said, ‘Oh, she’s beautiful.’ ‘No.’ He says, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘She’s in my father’s arms.’ And they thought it’s an illusion. The next day she fell from the top of the stairs to the bottom. The baby was born with golden curls around its head. My grandad died and she was buried in my grandad’s arms. That’s what my father saw.
CH: Wow.
FD: And he used to say, ‘Don’t be frightened of dying. It’s wonderful.’ And he used to say that. ‘Don’t be frighted girls. It’s wonderful.’ Yeah. And of course he managed to come around then. Francis was born the year after and then Edna and then Helen. Well, she was christened Nelly actually but she was a bit of a toff. She liked to be called Helen [laughs] That’s true. And then there was me and then there was Margaret. And I lost Margaret last Christmas. But I had a good life in one way. I was the odd sheep. The black sheep of the family. The odd one out. Why I do not know. I’ve told you before haven’t I? And Margaret, Margaret hardly, you know says I can’t understand it. And when my sister died at Christmas I said, ‘I’m still the odd one out.’ She said, ‘How do you make that out?’ I said, ‘They’re all up there laughing at me. I’m the last one.’ But yeah. I don’t know. I’ve enjoyed life. I don’t worry much do I?
The interview has been edited here as the interviewee spoke about personal, post war matters.
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Interview with Freda Dakin
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Cathie Hewitt
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-09-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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ADakinF170918, PDakinF1701
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Pending review
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01:02:48 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Lancashire
Description
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Born in Salford, just outside of Manchester, Freda was a teenager during the Second World War. She recalls her family's culture, school life, meal requirements and how she reacted to the war being declared. She also recounts her experiences of near-misses during bombing, and her understanding of the Anderson shelters. Despite being a family of seven, she believed she had a good diet during the war, because of her father being a milkman and getting the family extra food. She claims that during the war she was not afraid of the bombs, having quite a fatalistic attitude, she also enjoyed the freedom it brought and how it was like an adventure. She claims she could differentiate between American, British and German aircraft through the sounds of their engines, but also believes that the sirens were always sounded after the plane had arrived.
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Sam Harper-Coulson
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1939
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/768/10769/ADavidsonTA170717.1.mp3
91ab9c07f826cc5c96182de712fc028c
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Title
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Davidson, Thomas Aiden
T A Davidson
Description
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An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Tom Davidson (b. 1923, 1895266 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 466 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Davidson, TA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RS: Right. So, I just want to make sure that it is working. So, the timer is moving on so we’ll, we’ll make a start then. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Robb Scott and I’m interviewing Tom Davidson. We’re at Tom’s house at Washington, Tyne and Wear. It’s Monday, the 17th of July 2017 and it is ten past ten in the morning. Tom, first of all thank you very much for agreeing to do this with us this morning. We really do appreciate the time and effort you’re going to take with us today. I’m going to ask you one or two questions and then we want to hear your stories of the war and everything else around that. So, if we could make a start. Fairly straightforward Tom. If you could tell me where and when you were born and a bit about your background before the RAF please.
TD: I was born in Felling, Gateshead 1923. I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, a big heavy engineering firm in Hebburn and war was declared three days after my sixteenth birthday. So I was an apprentice engineer. I’m pleased I’ve been asked to do this recording because it’s something I feel very strongly about. What men and boys and women went through in this country for peace and freedom must never be forgotten. I feel strongly about it because my only brother was killed also. But war is horrible. War is brutal. War is evil. But sadly sometimes war is justified and in my opinion World War Two was. I was just sixteen years and three days when war was declared and although we didn’t have TV or smart phones in those days I was well aware of the atrocities being carried out by Nazi Germany and Hitler’s ultimate aim to conquer Europe and to eliminate anyone who stood in their way or who didn’t match up to the idea of a true German. And in doing so they killed eleven million people. Eleven million men, women and children. At the time I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, who were involved in war work and as such I was classed as being in a Reserved Occupation which meant I could never be conscripted in to any of the Armed Forces or Merchant Navy. Nor could I volunteer for them. I felt strongly that I wanted to do something to defend my country and my loved ones. I did get the chance at the time of Dunkirk when we were being evacuating from Europe. Winston Churchill, Prime Minister at the time appealed for all able bodied men, males rather between sixteen and sixty five to volunteer for the Local Defence Volunteer Force which later became the Home Guard. Better known as Dad’s Army I suppose. So I joined that and was in it until I joined the RAF. As the years went by and there seemed no end to the war due to the heavy losses suffered in Bomber Command the government decreed that men and boys, because you were just boys up to twenty one, in Reserved Occupations could volunteer to train as what we called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer course. I immediately volunteered for it. I went down to what was known as Burton’s Buildings in Doncaster. Had five days of fitness tests, medical tests and intelligence tests and at the end went in front of an interview panel and I was accepted into the RAF to train as PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. I was given my service number and put on deferred service until there was a training place available. However, at that time the four engine bomber had been introduced and there was an extra crew member was needed. So they created a new category. That of flight engineer, who’d be the pilot’s right hand man. Assist in pre and post flight checks, take-off and landing at the controls, be responsible for all the equipment on board, the pneumatics, electrics, fuel etcetera. And also I had to log the fuel consumption every twenty minutes. I received a request from the Air Ministry to consider training as a flight engineer and I accepted immediately. I reported to the Aircrew Receiving Centre at Lord’s Cricket Ground. We did three weeks there being kitted out. Medical examinations again. Inoculations, etcetera. And then we went on a six week square bashing course, doing aircraft recognition and a little bit of maths and all that sort of thing. And then after seven days leave I was posted to St Athans which was the training school for flight engineers. I’d also like to point out at this time that all aircrew, Bomber Command aircrew were volunteers. Every one of us. I went down to St Athans. Trained as a flight engineer for about seven or eight month and then got my brevet. Flight engineer’s brevet and sergeant’s stripes. Got seven days leave and was posted to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall near Selby where we trained with experienced aircrew who’d done, served their tours. And we trained there to become competent flight engineers with experienced crew. And then came the time to be given a crew. So I was, about thirty or forty flight engineers arrived at RAF Acaster Malbis near York. We were there for about two or three days. Lessons I suppose. And we were told this afternoon that we would meet our pilot and meet our crew. An aircrew selection was the most haphazard chaotic system out. They flung all the aircrew into big arenas. Let them mingle together and they sorted a crew of six out first. And it was very successful method despite that. I would say ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And then we were told we would meet our pilot and subsequent crew. And this is true this is. I know it sounds [pause] There were double doors at the end of the room we were in and they were opened and these pilots were crowded in there. And I got my eyes on this pilot and I don’t know why but I thought I hope he comes for me. And sure enough he walked straight across the floor. This is absolutely true. It was like two lovers meeting on a dance floor but there was none of that involved in it. And he came, we had a little bit of a natter and he said, ‘Have you got a pilot?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘Would you like to be my engineer?’ And I said, ‘Yes. I would.’ And we hit it off from day one. He was a fantastic pilot. Same age as me. We were just, in fact he was three weeks older than me. We were both twenty years of age by then. He was a great skipper. Very skilful. Great captain. Firm but friendly. Determined to get back home to South Australia and kept the crew on their toes. But he was a wonderful, wonderful pilot. Then I met the rest of the crew. Six Aussies. It was a wonderful experience. It turned out we hit it off from day one. We had a wonderful bond formed on that day which lasted well even up ‘til February of this year. I still contacted the crew. Kept in touch with them all. Met them from time to time. Sadly the last one, the rear gunner died in February this year. However, we went back to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit where we trained as a crew. And then when we were considered competent we were posted thankfully to an Australian squadron. 466 Squadron based at Driffield. We did further training there. Fighter affil. How to dodge enemy fighters. Fortunately these were Spitfires and Hurricanes we were playing with. Then we were posted as I said on this squadron and we were ready for our first op. A day on a squadron consisted, we reported for duty at 9 o’clock in our particular sections. I went to the engineer’s section to discuss various matters. Maybe evaders. Talking to you. Then at 10 o’clock the dreaded phone would ring and you hoped to hear the engineer leader repeat, ‘Nothing on today. Tonight.’ You knew you had another twenty four hours to live. But invariably it would come through, ‘Operations on today.’ It going to be a daylight. It’s going to be a night operation. And how many aircraft. One of us would go along to the duty room and get the crew roster for the operation, and then you hope your name wasn’t on it but when it was you just had to get on with it. You saw the list and your procedure for that was roughly, as far as I can remember you wrote your last letter. You had your last meal which was always bacon, egg and fried potatoes on the Aussie squadron. And then you went to the briefing room. Find out where your target was and then you sort of put things in order. Emptied your pockets. And then you went out and wait for the crew bus to take you to the parachute room to collect your parachutes and your escape kit. I’d just like to point out the first day I arrived on the squadron I met this lad that had slept in the next bed but one for six month. He was ahead of us on the course and he was going out on his, what was to be his sixth op. We had a meal together. Chatted until he was ready to leave and that was the last I saw of him. They were all killed that night. That was the starter. So to get back to going on our first op. We were in this billet with a crew who were in, going in C-Charlie and I think it was their third or fourth last operation. Some of them knew each other from even from school days. But we were very friendly with them and they said, ‘Stay with us. Stay alongside us.’ It was a daylight raid. ‘You’ll be alright.’ They were in C-Charlie.’ So we boarded. I’d better tell you know because I was asked once, ‘Was I scared?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And I was asked again, ‘You weren’t scared?’ And I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I was bloody terrified,’ I said, ‘We all were.’ However, amazing thing was when I put the key in the plane to open up fear left you and your training took over because you had to concentrate every second. You had to have utter trust in your comrades and the crew and we were a good crew although I say it myself. We had, Pat insisted on us doubling up on different tasks. You know, I used to do, have a go in the rear turret and on the wireless just in case any of us weren’t available either through death or injury. So he, but he was a good skipper as I keep repeating. We set off. Took off for a raid on Sterkrade which was a raid I think it was synthetic oil plant, or a synthetic chemical plant. There were six hundred bombers that day. About thirty or forty mile from the target I saw this big black thing in the sky. I thought we’ve never been told about that and I hadn’t been on those tours over that part of the world to know what it was. But as you approached it was what was called a box barrage. Certain times Jerry threw up in a certain area and certain height everything they could. And I thought, well that’s stupid. We’ll just fly around it. But you didn’t. You were in the RAF. You had to stick to your flight path and the bombing run. And then we saw the planes getting hit. It was, it was a hell of a day that day. Anyway, C-Charlie was just ahead of us on our starboard side. I saw it get hit and smoke and flames coming out of it and I saw two crew jump out and a parachute open. But the third one must have jumped into a burst of flak because I just saw half. You know, a torso going past me. And then the plane setting on fire and burst into flames and exploded. And they were only, there were two didn’t get out. Six jumped out but two didn’t get out. Anyway, the next thing I knew was I saw the wireless operator crawling from his position which he didn’t have to leave over the target area. I switched my intercom on and said, ‘Pat, what’s the matter with Nev.’ and Pat, we went by Christian names although there was no idle chat on the intercom. He said, ‘Tom, are you alright? I’ve been trying to get you for five minutes.’ He said, ‘Is the port inner alright?’ And I looked and I said, ‘Yes.’ I looked again and said, ‘No.’ The red light was flashing. We’d actually been hit. So I told him to feather the engine to prevent fire or the propeller shearing off. I was actually sitting on top of the oxygen bottles and I had been physically sick. Whether it was with fear or shock or both I don’t know. But I saw, I think I was the only member of the crew that saw everything. Anyway, we carried on. Dropped our bomb load. Set off and of course well it left us stragglers behind all the other bombers. I thought every fighter in the Luftwaffe would be after us. But as we approached the North Sea and that there was about six Hurricanes. There was a few of us straggling. Picked us up until we got back to the UK. We landed that day. I remember when I jumped on the ground I thought God, I’ll never do it. Survive another twenty nine of these. However, we went for debriefing and that night I remember, I wouldn’t call it a dream, I think it was more a nightmare. I was driving to an RAF station, Usworth in a little RAF van. I was lying on the floor. The roof of the van was coming down on me and I woke up shouting, ‘I want to be out. I want to be out.’ I don’t think I was talking about I wanted to be out of the car. I think I wanted to be out of Bomber Command. But that was it. I had a few but never mind. We survived. Just to go back to C-Charlie. The flight engineer. They called him Peter Jack from Dumfries. We had our last meal together and he told me he was engaged to a girl just a few mile from where we lived. I think it was Willington Quay on Tyneside. He was expecting a silk scarf from her. Anyway, when we, the next morning when we went in the mess I saw where our letters and correspondence were kept and I saw this little brown parcel. Sergeant Jack. It was his silk scarf. There is a happy ending to that one which I’ll talk about later on. I’ll stick to the action. We went on many raids after that. We had some very scary moments. Some of them in this country. Not all. So, I’ll tell you some stories. Not in any particular order. But contrary to what I think is common belief we didn’t just drop randomly or anywhere. Every target, and we did thirty six, every target we did was either military or industrial. You took photographs of where your bombs would land and if you had too many misses, we, we didn’t, we were lucky in that respect. Our bomb aimer had been a flying, a bombing instructor. He was a flying officer. But if you did miss your target you had to what was known as an orbit. We had to do it two or three times being chased by fighters or searchlights and you had, which meant you had to climb with the full bomb load, do a full, outside of the bomber stream outside and that, if there was six or seven hundred, well it was a thousand at one time it was like driving up the, the M1 on the wrong side of the motorway with no lights on at night. A hell of an experience. We did it, as I say three times. We took, it was mainly when we’d been taking evasive action from either fighters or searchlights and you had to get onto your bombing run. Searchlights, although they couldn’t do you any damage were the most terrifying I found out. I thought it was just me but I’ve read about them and spoken to aircrews who felt the same. It was terrifying if they, what they called the master cone got on you. It was the blue one. Within seconds you’d get twenty or thirty searchlights on you. It lit you up and you just, that was it. We were caught twice, and again through Pat’s skill we got out of it but a most frightening experience. And you may have heard of the expression he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Well, we bomber boys did that for two reasons. The first, well one reason was we had peashooters. 303s. Which were about I don’t know how many millimetres that is but roughly over a quarter of an inch. About seven millimetre peashooters. They had twenty millimetre cannon shells which shattering, were shattering the aircraft metal plates. And the second one was our range was, gunner’s range was four hundred yards. Theirs was up to about twelve hundred yards. So they had you in target long before we could do any damage. So the pilot had to do an evasive action which was called a corkscrew. And this is where the trust and confidence in crew members came in. At the crucial moment you would shout to the pilot, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port,’ or, ‘Corkscrew starboard. Go.’ At the critical moment Pat would go into a dive and corkscrew. It was critical because if you went too soon they could veer off and chase you and if you called it too late well it was too late and you’d had your chips then, you know. So it was very critical that. It wasn’t a very welcome experience. G factor came into it a lot. But the Pathfinders were the ones who were down below. They would mark the target with target indicators. And if the winds or anything varied it they would just call out instructions to bomb somewhere to the left or the right of it. But it was very, very critical. They did a great job the Pathfinders. Two other hazards which you visit, visited and saw night after night was collisions between our own aircraft and bombs dropped. That was something really we had a great fear of was collisions because when you’re in cloud, particular at night and you know there’s four, five, six, seven hundred bombers there. You can’t see them but you knew they were there. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. But we got through it. We set off one evening which would have been a nine to ten hour trip deep into Germany. Chemnitz. And we were fitted with an extra petrol, fuel tanks. We dropped our load and making for home but we lost this extra tank. I used to do the fuel consumption every twenty minutes and I calculated on this occasion we were coming home from this flight we were going to run out of fuel before we got to the English Coast. So I told Pat these details. I said, ‘We’ll have to find, see if there’s a suitable aerodrome in the north of France we can land at.’ And I don’t want to do the Aussies any disrespect because I love them. Love them very, very much. But someone suggested we make for near Brighton. There were plenty of airfields there. Brighton was a Reception Centre for the Aussies when they came over and probably had happy memories there. But I said to Pat, ‘Pat, if we, if you try to make it for the UK I’ll be jumping out before we leave the French coast.’ However, again he trusted my calculations and we had a heck of a job finding a suitable aerodrome. We did find one at Juvencourt. It was an American one actually. It wasn’t in good working order but we managed to land at night and we landed and two engines cut out and the rest cut out. This is in the Australian War Museum Archives. It’s a true story. And it’s not often I could get Aussies to eat humble pie but they did on that occasion. Another nasty experience was we’d been warned for several ops that we may get intruders. You know, German fighters coming back with the bomber stream. On this occasion I was back changing the tanks over and I was off the intercom. And we had a set procedure when we landed, the pilot and I. And the crew just make for the exits and running out, jumping out making for a slit trench. Fortunately, I was the last one to get in. We’d been told there had been intruders at certain heights and they were just strafing the aerodrome. There was a slit trench near the parking bay where we were and we dived into that. Some of them squealed. I thought they’d been hit but as they told us later the ground crew used that as a toilet. Three of them. Well, you could say they landed in a mess but I was alright. But they strafed the ‘drome for about an hour and a half and we lost two that night over the aerodrome. Four of them were killed in one aircraft. They were in our billet. And they were losing height and the navigator came to the exit and the engineer was stood there. He was afraid to jump. The navigator was trying to push him out, you know. Getting. But he wouldn’t go so the navigator eventually jumped out. Sadly the engineer changed his mind and jumped out but it was too late so there were only two survivors from that one, you know. Another dodgy landing happened to us one night when they were trying a new, it was a brilliant light system which we used when it was very dark and that. Foggy. And when we came in to land we were the third aircraft down. The two previous ones had just hit the end of the runway. Unfortunately, before the flight commander could get the lights turned off and the original ones put on we touched down well short of the runway and there was a blinding flash and I thought we’d crashed into a forest nearby. But Pat managed to gain height and what had actually happened we’d gone through telegraph wires that had ripped the side of the fuselage, caught the bomb aimer from just outside his eye and ripped his side of his face open. And we were very very lucky to get through but again Pat’s strength got us through that one. Another very scary incident which happened in the UK was when we’d taken, when we were going on a morning op to Duisburg. We’d been having trouble with the starboard inner engine. Been out with the ground crew and that. But you didn’t like to call your operations off plus the fact you wanted to get through your tour. So we took her on a test flight. It was ok. Anyway, the time comes to take off. To set off. We were setting off to Duisburg and I was standing watching the panel to make sure that the dodgy engine wouldn’t let us down. So we got on to the runway. Got the ok to take off. Got the green light to take off and Pat set off along the runway to take off. And then I just saw the revs drop on the port inner. I yelled to Pat to abort take-off. Abort the take-off, which he did and it cut out. The port inner engine cut out. We swung off the runway. Bomb. Full bomb load but thankfully I’m telling this tale because the bombs didn’t go off. But that was very, very scary indeed but it just another case of trusting each other’s competence.
[pause]
Although we were all volunteers in Bomber Command aircrew and could at any time say we didn’t want to fly any more we’d be taken off flying duties immediately. We’d go in front of a tribunal. And in my case if I had decided I’d have been reduced to an AC2, discharged from the RAF with my documents stamped with big LMF. Lack of Moral Fibre. And then I would have been discharged from the RAF and sent back home. Gone back to my, finish my apprentice in the engineering company. It did happen on very, very rare occasions. I think there was about, out of two hundred and odd crews you’re talking seven times that. About four in our squadron. I remember one was an engineer and one was an Aussie pilot. I remember those two in particular. But even if I thought about it I would never have done it. I couldn’t do it. I still felt strongly even though I was married to the love of my life and my brother Frankie had, who was also a flight engineer had been killed on his first operation. I still felt the job had to be done. And I’m pleased I had the courage to stay in and not come out. A couple of stories which might be of interest. When we did these long flights into Germany it was suggested or advised even that if we got into trouble it might be better to make for North Africa rather than trying to reach the English Coast. So on these occasions and it happened to us on about four or five occasions we were given what was known by the rank and file as goolie chits. Because at the time there was a barbaric custom in Africa, North Africa whereby when, and this was from the 1920s and as far as I know the nineteen, early ‘50s it was still prevalent. If an aviator landed his private parts were cut off and sewn in his mouth. And although the reward was in Arabic, if this person, aviator, I can’t remember what it said now was handed in intact they would be rewarded with twenty five pound which had probably made them millionaire’s overnight. But it was always my greatest fear that I’d be found by an Arab who couldn’t read who had a dirty pair of garden secateurs in his hand. And the fear of that I think put us all off. We never tried to land in Africa [laughs] and to my mind, but it could have happened I don’t think many would have welcomed that opportunity to be castrated. But there you are. That was one story. Another just on a light hearted note was, concerns my wonderful wife Mary. I had this photograph in my locker and when I was going on ops I used to pick it up, give it a kiss, turn it and face the door and when I got to the door I used to turn around to say words to the effect, ‘I hope I come back to see you again, Mary.’ Which I did on thirty six occasions. We went on to have a wonderful life together. We’d been on our squadron I think when they brought the troops over they put extra cakes and rations in because we did very well and they had, they loved their fruitcake. Especially when they’d been out on the town or the village and they liked their hot cocoa and fruit cake. So I, in my daily letter to Mary I asked her this time if there was any chance of her making a fruit cake to bring back to the camp. She was at the time, she was an apprentice also at a ladies tailoress and dressmaker. Never done any cooking in life. Anyway, I brought it back and it was in a tin which she used to keep her best handkerchiefs in because there were no tissues in those days. And she kept her best silk handkerchiefs in this small round biscuit tin. Anyway, we came back this night and one of the crew said, because they’d all met Mary, the crew and I was the only married one in the crew, ‘What about Mary’s cake.’ So I got the cake out of the nice tin. Cut a piece off and I remember, I remember handing it to Bluey, our mid-upper gunner. I cut the other, another piece off to give to one of the crew. As I’m just about to hand that out Bluey shouts, ‘Tom,’ he says, ‘What the hell is in this? He says, ‘Taste it.’ I took a bite of it and it was [pause] well Mary I’m sorry I won’t say too much about it but it wasn’t pleasant. So one of them said, ‘Put it back in the tin,’ bearing in mind they’re Aussies, ‘Put it back in the tin and we’ll drop it over Germany. If it doesn’t kill them when it hits them on the head it will when they eat it.’ So it went back in the tin. We fastened it up as best we could and when I was operating our on the next trip, operating the Window chute, dropping the window down the window chute I got Mary’s tin with the cake and dropped it out. What happened to it we don’t know but Mary used to say it was her humanitarian effort to help the poor starving Germans. So I’ll take it on Mary’s word but it did actually happen. Coming back to Peter Jack, the engineer on C-Charlie who was shot down on our first op. After the war in one of the main streets in Newcastle I was standing outside this silk material shop. Mary, as I said Mary was a dressmaker. She was inside getting material and I was standing out in the main street and I saw this warrant officer walking up on the other side of the road but I didn’t pay much attention. And then he walked over towards me and it was Peter Jack. He’d been the only survivor of the crew. There was two who didn’t make it. They had a spare dickie. A spare dickie was a rookie pilot who, to get experience did his, did a flight just by himself with another crew to get the feeling of a raid. Two of them blew up with the plane. Six of them got out. One I saw with just a torso. And the only one that was taken prisoner was Peter. We don’t know exactly what happened to the other crew but I’ve a fair idea. And Peter did marry his fiancé from Tyneside. There was another peculiar, strange, unbelievable incident happened to one of our crew. One of our crew members. Pilot Joe Herman. We were on the same raid with them and they got hit very badly. Fires on, and baling out. Well, in our aircraft I used to stand with, the pilot couldn’t put the ‘chute on but the rest of the crew could. So I used to stand over the target area with the pilot’s parachute ready to hand to him. But on Joe Herman’s I don’t know what happened that night. The engineer was probably they reckon putting, trying to put a fire out. But his mid-upper gunner was standing with his parachute up. They all baled out except Joe and the pilot and then the plane blew up. And they were at seventeen thousand feet evidently. Joe has no parachute. He’s coming down. He sees something glistening, grabs it, this thing lets out a terrific scream. Yelling. It was his mid-upper gunner and he’d grabbed his legs and unfortunately one of them was broken. But thank God they both landed together. They were both badly injured but they survived and lived to their nineties. One of them, I think the gunner was killed in a motorbike accident but Joe survived right to the nineties. He was in a hell of a mess but, you know he survived. All that time there was that fear but as I mentioned earlier on your training. And it, it was, it happened to all of us, our training took over and you knew you had to concentrate for your survival and your crew. You wanted to come home every night. The fear left you. It probably came back over the target area but it was just something we had to face night after night. But as I keep repeatedly saying it had to be done. It just had to be done despite all the fifty percent loss of aircrew. And to come back to my brother he was shot down on 18th 19th of November 1943 and they didn’t find the remains until November 1947. They were reburied in Rheinberg Cemetery. But every time his wife went out for those four years, four lonely years she used to leave a place setting for him and a little note where she was going and the time she’d come back. And she did that even after she got notification that they had found his grave. It affected her mentally. It was a shame. She was a schoolteacher. And that was a tragedy of war. So I finished my tour and I’ll just quote if I may what my pilot wrote the day after. These are my pilot’s words, Pat Gillis. “The worst part of my story has now arrived as we would most likely be sent in different directions.” This was at the end of his tour. “As a crew we all realised just how lucky we were to have completed a tour of operations and still be in one piece. It was a miracle. As the captain of this crew I can say that the dedication each one of my crew showed in each of their duties they had to perform in their positions was A1. We were able to discuss so many problems put to us and then come up with the answers. It made my position as captain easier to consider and make all the final decisions. It is hard to imagine that a crew made of men, or at that time boys from three states of Australia and one from England could mould together and work so well as one team. It was a sad experience when we all split up and sent on leave. The six Australians were sent on extended leave which meant that every day we had to contact Driffield to find out whether we had been posted or leave extended. Tom Davidson our English flight engineer was taken back in to the RAF after being on loan to our Australian squadron of the RAF.” I’d like to go back to my first operation. When we touched down, as I said, I didn’t think I could make another twenty nine but I made another thirty six. But when you looked at the damage on the aircraft the size of the hole was about the size of house door in the port wing. How it missed all the controls, the electrics, the fuel, the hydraulics was nothing short of a miracle. And the next day the ground staff counted thirty three flak holes in the aircraft. This happened, of course you know on a regular basis. We got hit nearly every night. Some nights we were unscathed but most nights we had flak damage, some more severe than others and yet we were so so fortunate on the thirty six trips never touched any of the crew, never touched any of the controls. Which brings us around to talking about our pilot, Pat. We always considered him to be the best pilot on the squadron. As probably every other crew did with their pilot. But we felt we were the only ones who were right. At an ANZAC reunion two year ago at the old squadron at Driffield I was told by a historian, squadron historian that Pat was classed as being in the top five pilots on the squadron. Well, we had over two hundred pilots which put him in the top two and a half percent. But in our opinion, certainly in my opinion he was in the top one percent. He was a fantastic pilot. I kept in touch with him until he died and his wife, Peg. Now, I’m in touch with two of the family and we’ve met from time to time. And also I’m in touch with the rear gunner’s family. The rear gunner, sadly Bill died in February this year but I’m still in touch with his family. We had a great bond. It’s an experience I’ll ever forget. I don’t dwell on it. It’s only the last few years my oldest grandson got me to talk about it. But if I can just say at Remembrance time each year and I give a reading and place a wreath at our village Memorial Service about three or four days before Remembrance Day I cry a lot. A lot of memories come flooding back which I never think about really from one year’s end to another. But it’s not something. I’ve had a very very happy life. Wonderful seventy years with my marriage with my beloved Mary. And when I was finished with Driffield I was posted to an RAF station, but a Free French Air Force Training Unit up at Lossiemouth. It was a bit scary with them not always speaking English. Sometimes they broke into their French and we had a few accidents up there. Not communicating properly with the flight control. After that I was posted out to Egypt. But I was flown home on a compassionate. I asked for compassionate leave because our oldest son Peter who was only six months at the time wasn’t expected to survive bronchial pneumonia. But they flew me home on a compassionate posting. And although he was given up twice he survived it thanks to penicillin and he is now seventy, seventy two years of age this year. And then I was given a compassionate posting near home. And then before I was demobbed I was, went down to RAF Catterick to be advised on what we should do after, after demob and after four days testing, exams and all that I was advised to either go in for teaching or Civil Service. But in those days having grown up in a depressed area in Tyneside. Grew up during the Depression. Having an apprenticeship was a wonderful achievement and the thought of losing that if I didn’t complete it and not having a job, I didn’t have the courage to take up either of these suggestions. However, I finished my apprenticeship. Had a wonderful life. And I did eventually get qualifications teaching and finished up as an engineering lecturer. So I’ve had no regrets in life. I’ve had a wonderful life. My wonderful Mary and our three children, grandchildren. A very very rich life. Lucky to have survived. So I think that’s the end of my wartime experiences in the RAF. One of the lucky fifty percent who survived.
RS: Well, Tom. Thank you. That was very, very moving and a privilege for me to sit and hear. So thank you very much indeed for that. Before I end the recording is there anything else you want to talk about? Is there anything else that maybe has jogged your memory while you’ve been talking?
[pause]
TD: Just I think the bond that was forged between the crew members and particularly our crew was just something that I’ll never experience again. Our life depended so much on each other. Our trust in our efficiency and competence. But they were just a great bunch of lads. We got on so well from day one. I used to say I was, the number one crew in Bomber Command were lucky to have the number one flight engineer with them, you know. Such a great crowd. I’m only joking when I say that but it’s true [laughs] No. No. I think that’s about all, Rob. I could go on for quite some time but they are the relevant points to my experience. The things that matter. Things that affected me. But I’ve never suffered from what I saw. I think I’ve written about the things I won’t tell anyone. Not even my family. But I joined up to do it and we did it and that was it. I think that’s about all. And thank you so much for putting up with me telling that.
RS: Well, thank you very much, Tom. It’s now quarter past eleven and we’ll terminate the interview there. Thank you very much, Tom.
TD: Thank you, Rob. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Aiden Davidson
Creator
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Rob Scott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavidsonTA170717
Format
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00:46:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Gateshead, Thomas was an apprentice railroad engineer. With the war beginning three days after his 16th birthday, Thomas feels very passionately about the British experience of the Second World War, as his only brother was killed. He claims to have been very aware of the atrocities of the Nazi regime and was inspired to volunteer, despite being in a reserved occupation. He joined Bomber Command following the introduction of four-engine bombers, creating the flight engineer job role, of which he trained for. Training at RAF St Athans for six weeks, he completed his Heavy Conversion Unit course at RAF Riccall, eventually joining a crew of Australians. Placed on 466 Squadron at RAF Driffield, he recalls pre-operations activities crew used to partake in, including last meals, chatting, and briefings. He states that he and his crew were entirely terrified until they got onto the aircraft, in which their mutual trust took over their fear. He recounts seeing several aircraft being hit on his first operation, with many having people he knew in them. He recalls having nightmares after his operations, alongside several near-death experiences, both on operations and around the airfield. He continues to explain the culture surrounding leaving the RAF, including the fear surrounding Lack of Morale Fibre and why he choose to carry on. Thomas recalls rarely talking of his experience and that it was only recently in which he opened up about the war. He believes that he was lucky to have survived but states that he continues to remember those who have passed away during remembrance days. He believes that he and his crew had a fantastic bond and that was the most important experience of the war.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1943-11-18
1943-11-19
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
466 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Home Guard
lack of moral fibre
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Driffield
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
searchlight
training
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3b6291d34318cba31f12d255a2f6a0a6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1129/11652/ASmithD180420.1.mp3
838eb944efc533f30b9c9fd955bee963
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Dinah
D Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Dinah Smith (b. 1937). She grew up in Darley Dale, Derbyshire and remembers being frightened by low flying Lancasters.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PL: Hello. I’m Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mrs Dinah Smith [buzz] [Yeadon] and I’d just like to say Dinah thank you very much indeed on behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive for agreeing to tell us your story today. And I guess I’d like to start by just saying would you like to just tell us a little bit about your background and where you lived as a child?
DS: Yes. Well, I’m Dinah Smith but I was born Dinah Crooks in Bamford, in the Peak District in Derbyshire near the Ladybower and Derwent Dams. I was born in 1937 and my father, he had been employed by Baileys in the construction of the Ladybower Reservoir, but then he got a job with the Derwent Valley Water Board and so we were moved in 1939 down to Darley Dale which is down the Derwent Valley. So of course I spent my childhood and the wartime years in Darley Dale. It’s, it’s a beautiful area. Quite rural except we had the main London to Manchester railway line running through the valley and later on in the war we got a steel stamping works. So we had the noise of the railways and the two hammers at the stamping works but we never heard aeroplanes. Planes didn’t seem to come our way at all. Our nearest city was Sheffield and of course that was very badly blitzed during the war. But apart from that we, we just didn’t hear planes and then suddenly planes seemed to be coming down. Mostly at night. And, and so this was an unusual noise. Being a small child it was quite scary. I think it was, it was scary in that at school, I think it was at school we were issued with a little booklet that showed silhouettes of enemy and British aircraft. And of course during the war everybody was involved with the war effort. From the youngest to the oldest, we all had to play our part and I thought about it since because if we had spotted an enemy aircraft what we would have done? Because nobody had a phone and we hadn’t a local police station or anything like that so goodness knows what we would have done if we’d spotted enemy aircraft. So of course when we started hearing these, these, these planes it was frightening. And of course folk talked about it and you know saying it’s waking the children up and frightening the animals and that sort of thing and of course it wasn’t until afterwards when they’d successfully breached the German dams that we found out why these planes were coming down. Because they were practising low level flying over Derwent Dam and then continuing on down the valley and that’s what it was all about. And then of course we were very proud of the fact that [laughs] they’d chosen our valley to, to practice in. But yes. It was. It was quite scary at the time for a, for a small child. I suppose for the adults as well, because they wouldn’t know. Everything was kept very secret. We were only told what we were supposed to hear. And of course there wasn’t television and modern media. So —
PL: So how old were you?
DS: Well, I was born in ‘37 so I was two when the war started and I’d be eight when it finished. So I suppose in 1943 I was, I was six wasn’t I, in 1943? So it would be scary wouldn’t it for a for a small child? These big planes. Big noisy planes. Mostly as I say at night.
[cuckoo clock in the background]
PL: Thank you for that. We also have several clocks who are going to take part in our interview today.
DS: Yeah. I do apologise.
PL: Not to worry. So, so tell me a little bit about your other experiences during the war. So this is obviously the key thing. The memory of this scary, scary, can you remember thinking what the noise might have been?
DS: Well, I suppose because we did go into Sheffield and we would, you know we would see all these bombed areas. I can remember going once and, and my dad pointing out a huge heap of rubble at one point saying x number of, ‘People are buried under that rubble. They’ve not been able to dig them out.’ And of course over Sheffield there were barrage balloons, so you know we were just accustomed to that. But I suppose we, we thought the planes were something to do with looking after Sheffield. Because of course, you know being the steel industry it was, it was a prime target. Another time, we lived not far from Chatsworth House and as I said my father worked for the Water Board and he was, his official title was an aqueduct linesman which actually meant he had to check on a length of pipe, pipeline. And it started at Baslow and came through to Darley Dale where we lived. So every Monday he, he walked his length is what he described it, and he had to check in in some of the buildings that the water pressure and so forth. And it actually ran through Chatsworth Park and when I was off school I would, I would walk. Do the walk with him, because if you lived in Derbyshire everybody walked because it’s such a beautiful place to walk in. And I always felt so important because we would approach the ornamental gates for Chatsworth Park that that the general public even now don’t use, and the gate keeper would run out and open these gates for me and my dad. You know, my dad in his overalls and his hobnail boots to walk through and I felt so important [laughs] But my dad again pointed out on the belvedere, at the end of Chatsworth House he pointed out some marks in the walls and he said they were shot, they were machine gun bullets. That a plane, a German plane had come down, continued on from Sheffield and come down the valley and fired apparently at some people who were playing cricket. Again on the cricket field in the park and fired at Chatsworth House. And those bullet marks were still there until a recent refurbishment and they enquired about it and they said it depends on the state of the stone and if it’s too badly damaged they will have to remove it. And I haven’t seen. I haven’t been back so I don’t know if those marks are still there but certainly whenever I visited Chatsworth I always used to look and point out to friends, you know these machine gun marks.
PL: So, did you, at school did you talk a lot about the war? Did you did you sort of feel frightened or were you excited or —
DS: We didn’t know anything different because that’s —
PL: What you know
DS: You know we were just growing up with it. And as I say everybody had to do their bit. We had to, we collected, picked, rosehips. We had to pick those. Well, didn’t have to but we did and take them to the local chemist shop and they weighed them and I think, I think we got a bit of money for them. But that was to, for rosehip syrup for the babies, you know to ensure that the babies got their vitamins. And we also had I think it was late September, beginning of October potato picking holiday. And we were loaded up on to the back of a lorry. I mean it wouldn’t get past health and safety now. We just loaded up into this lorry and taken off. Where we were it was just by Chatsworth Park, into a field. We followed a man with a fork digging out the potatoes. And you know we picked the potatoes up and put them into boxes and buckets.
PL: So how old were you then?
DS: And that’s what we called potato picking holiday. And of course any paper or card which, we hadn’t really got any at school. We’d very very few materials at school or equipment. Everything had to be taken for salvage. You know, we all, everybody was excepted to do something about it. And my dad, as I said worked for the water board and his, his yard, his base was on my way to school. So me and my friend Betty, if we were in good time because we always dawdled and we played marbles along the side of the road to school and that sort of thing. But if we were in good time we would pop in and see my dad. And for a while he had German prisoners of war working with them. And they, they arrived each morning again on the back of a lorry. Worked with my dad. But of course they made a big fuss of, of me and Betty because, well they’d be family men wouldn’t they? And they would have left their children behind. And, and in fact, well, mum, mum was a very good lady, a Christian and although we were on rations and you couldn’t get dried fruit and that sort of thing my mum would, would quite often send cake and it was a case of find the current or find the sultana you know with wartime cake. But they, they you know were on very meagre rations and didn’t get anything extra. And so of course they, they made a big fuss of me and Betty and actually made us, whittled us toys, because again during the war everything went into the war effort and they weren’t making toys and they made me some beautiful toys out of presumably orange boxes and that sort of thing. In fact, I’ve still got two. Well, I’ve got one. That’s a chess piece.
PL: Do you want me to get it?
DS: Yes.
PL: So, Dinah, explain to me what this is that you’re showing us.
DS: I think it’s a chess piece. It looks like the bishop.
PL: And it’s a beautifully carved piece.
DS: Yes. Yes.
PL: That’s probably about a hundred mil high and it’s so detailed.
DS: Yes. Look at the face and whatever. Is that? That’s a cross isn’t it? It’s a — I’ve got another piece upstairs. Shall I fetch it for you?
PL: So, what else did they make for you?
DS: Well, they made, I wish I’d kept them but you see when you’d played with them for a while because other children hadn’t, hadn’t got toys you passed them on. And that’s what I did, apart from one which was the pecking hens. And I’ve still, I’ve still kept that. But they were one, one was a piece. It was sort of a frame like that, double it’s a bit like parallel bars in it for gymnastics.
PL: Right.
DS: And with a, with a clown.
PL: Right.
DS: And you put him on that and it —
PL: He tumbled across.
DS: Went back like that.
PL: Right.
DS: And then the next thing you know the two sticks with a clown in between and you pressed the sticks.
PL: Yes.
DS: They made me those. And sort of little bits of dolls house furniture. Tables and chairs. And, and bats. You know, cricket. Not cricket bats. A round bat to play rounders with or something like that. But, and, and I think that was A, because they missed their children and B because, you know my mum. My mum obviously was, you know they appreciated mum because although they were the enemy, they appreciated what mum did for them. And I mean my dad had fought in the First World War. You know. So he’d, he’d fought against the Germans at one time but again my dad was a lovely man and would treat them just like, you know, like himself I suppose because it could have happened to him couldn’t it in the First World War?
PL: So where was the prisoner of war camp?
DS: I don’t know. I think it was Baslow way. Beyond, I think beyond Chatsworth but I’m not really sure. I ought to try and find out hadn’t I?
PL: How extraordinary though. So —
DS: Yeah.
PL: So you’d have these two men who were helping your dad.
DS: No. A lorry load of them.
PL: Oh, a lorry load of them.
DS: A lorry load, Yeah. Several of them. Yeah.
PL: So it must have been very strange as a child to have this notion of the enemy, and —
DS: I think. Yeah. Yeah. They weren’t, they were just nice men. You know. As I say they were kind to us and, yeah. And they were just people who worked with my dad.
PL: So do you know what they did with him?
DS: No, but no. Now, you start, started me to think. Perhaps they were airmen. Do you think? They might have been airmen because why else would they be? I’ve never really, do you know I’ve never thought about that. Why were they there? And of course everybody who would know has gone now. This is the time when you think I wish I’d got my mum and dad back and then I could ask them all these, all these things. Don’t you? And, you know.
PL: So, talking about food tell us a little bit about what it was like.
DS: Food.
PL: On rations. What would a typical day be?
DS: Oh, my goodness. Well, the bread was a very grey colour. I can remember the first time I saw a white loaf. I couldn’t believe it because it was sort of a very grey. I think. And of course we foraged. Living in the country, we picked everything. There was nothing left on, on trees and bushes. We picked bilberries, blackberries, raspberries. Well, as kids we used to pinch apples off people’s trees. In Derbyshire most people, although we hadn’t, we had a big garden. It went three sides of the house and we were self-sufficient in vegetables throughout the year, and we were next to the farm field and the farmer grew turnips. So he gave us permission just to go over and pick a turnip if we wanted it. But we, we went nutting. That was, we knew where were the best trees were in Chatsworth Park and you, we knew, we knew all the ways over the wall in to Chatsworth Park. So we picked chestnuts and beech nuts and hazelnuts. We knew where to find watercress. And I would say most people in Derbyshire had a damson tree. And mum, come the Autumn I mean mum would spend hours and hours bottling. Sunday tea was bottled damsons with the top of the milk because the milkman came around with a churn and ladled out the milk into our jugs and, and it was full cream milk so of course you had, we called it the top of the milk. The cream.
PL: So did that happen every day? He would come with the milk and do that.
DS: Yes. Yes.
PL: So you had a jug of milk each day.
DS: Yes. Yes. Mum had in the kitchen in fact I’ve still got one, a set of three jugs, and they had different measures in. They were gil measures, hung on the side of the churn and you know you’d put so much into the different jugs. You had to have your jug ready. And then you had a sort of a lace cover to keep the flies off. You know. With beads around the edge [laughs] oh dear. But, yeah. Oh, pickled onions. Oh, I used to dread pickled onions because the house used to stink to high heaven. And then, then mum, as I say dad, dad grew potatoes. So we had quite a big landing at home and on that landing we had a packing case and a tea chest and usually the packing case had the potatoes in so mum would lay layers of potatoes and then a layer of paper of some sort and then another layer of potatoes. So they saw us through the winter. And the tea chest would have apples stored in the same. And then in the coal house we’d got sacks of turnips. And then of course all the jam, which was mostly damson. Oh dear. And do you know you hardly see damsons in Yorkshire at all. It’s a real treat now for me to have damson jam. And it’s, I used to think I’ll turn into damson. And the thing was that the jam, she left, she left the stones in because I think that’s where the pectin is isn’t it and helps to make the jam? And we just used to spread that on the bread. They would be doorsteps. My mum was hopeless at cutting because of course there wasn’t sliced bread. She was hopeless. You know. It would go up and down. She couldn’t cut a straight slice of bread and of course they were ever so thick and it would be a scraping of, well, I don’t, I don’t know. Would it be butter? Possibly. Anyway, a scraping of something and then of course you stuck your damson jam with, with the, with the with stones and you’d have this open butty you know. And of course if, if we were outside because we played a lot outside in the woods and, and up on the moors and such like. We’d disappear for the whole day. And we’d set off with jam butties, and a camp coffee bottle of water and we knew where there was a spring on the way up to the moors in the wood. And we’d, we’d because by the time we’d climbed up the hill we’d drunk the water, the bottle of water so we refilled it there. So of course if we were outside you know with the damson jam it was just a case of we’d spit [laughs] there was probably a forest of damson trees somewhere in those woods. Oh dear.
PL: And was it sweet, Dinah?
DS: Oh yeah.
PL: Did you put sugar in it?
DS: We weren’t used to sugar, you see so I suppose, you know it would be alright because it was what you were used to because I mean the rations were, were very sparce. A piece of cheese that you would have nowadays with your crackers after a meal would be for a family for a week. Oh, and then of course there were the baths. Well, you were limited to how much water. Did you know that? You could only have, you know I can’t remember how much it was. It was probably three inches or something so of course once a week in the bath. So I was an only child. Very precious because my parents were elderly parents so I was a long awaited precious child. So I went in the bath first, and then mum went in and poor old dad had to go in last. You know, so [laughs] every, I mean everything when you think about it really everything.
PL: And was that a tin bath in front of the fire?
DS: No. No. No. At Darley Dale we had, we had a bathroom. We’d got electricity. The rest of the people on our avenue were, had still got gas mantles. But we had electricity and we had a proper bathroom. It was, it was a newly built house in 1939. So we were very fortunate. That was a beautiful spot. It belonged to the Water Board. It was a tied house and as I say it had, we’d a garden on three sides of it. And when my father reached sixty five he was literally, I feel quite angry about it really because it wouldn’t happen now but he was literally turned out the day after he was sixty five and had to be rehoused by the council because, you know they were homeless. And, and it was August. His birthday was August and so of course there was all the planting. You know most of the vegetables that he’d planted he had to leave behind. Went into a flat with no garden. It broke his heart. Absolutely broke his heart. But that’s another story.
PL: So, so what about the sort of things that you learned at school during the war?
DS: A for apple. B for bat. C for cat. I can do it all because we had it, this frieze around the Infant’s classroom and we used to chant it every day. And I can still do it. I think I could probably get all the way through it. And of course we chanted tables. And we’d slates because there wasn’t any paper. So we wrote on slates. And we had those little sort of shells. Pearly shells to count with. Counters. And in the Infants we had, because of course most of the men were at war so they were mostly female teachers and we had the headmistress, headmaster’s wife, Mrs Bartram for our teacher. And she was, she was rather a sharp lady. And of course we didn’t have any sweets and I started school when I was four and I suppose I must have thought these shells were sweets because I put one in my mouth and swallowed one and she was absolutely furious. And I, I spent the rest of the day standing on a chair. Yeah. She slapped my legs. Slapped the back of my legs and I stood on a chair for the rest of the day. I was in serious trouble. But you know the toilets at the school, it’s still there I don’t think they’ll be the same toilets but they were outside and we, we really did seem to have very severe winters. And the toilets were frozen solid. And I just, I don’t know how we managed because we hadn’t got potties or anything like so we must have had very crossed legs and crossed eyes probably most of the time, because they were, they were literally were frozen solid. And we had a big open fire in the Infant’s. I don’t know what happened in the Junior bit. I can’t remember what the heating was in there. But I can remember moving up from the Infants into the Juniors which there was the Infant’s school which was two classrooms and then there was caretaker’s house in between and then there was the Junior School next to it. At the time the playing field was turned into a big allotment and that’s what the boys had to do. The boys had to work on the allotment. You know to provide — oh, and that was another thing. All grass verges on the side of roads. I don’t, I can’t remember any roundabouts but any spare grass or ground was dug up and planted with potatoes. And that was another thing. Down in the bottom the A6 runs through the middle of Darley Dale and we, our house was up the hill but down in the bottom there was a great big concrete block. I’ve been thinking. I’ve been talking about this just lately. There was this great big concrete block and because everybody had to, had to do what they could for the war if the enemy happened to come along the road we were supposed push this big concrete block in to the middle of the road to prevent the enemy [laughs] I mean you couldn’t. You couldn’t do it with a great big, you know modern digger I don’t think. I suppose it was all the psychology of it, wasn’t it? You know, that you’ve got to keep people’s spirits up and they all had to feel that they were contributing and defending the country and what have you. But what with spotting the enemy aircraft and then pushing concrete blocks in to the middle of the road.
PL: So did you have the sort of Home Guard in Darley Dale?
DS: I can’t remember them. I can’t remember them. But I can remember the blackout. You know. We all had blackout. Sort of very dark curtains, and if you were and we had the light bulbs hardly gave any light out at all and we’d sort of Bakelite type shades around them. You know, again and they were that sort of shape so that the light was just immediately below.
PL: Like a bell
DS: So, you know, it wasn’t defused at all. I mean there weren’t streetlights. Everywhere was pitch dark because mum and I we used to go and stand and, say we live next to the field and the bluebell wood and it was a beautiful area. Mum and I used to go and stand out at night and look at the stars and they were enormous because there was no, you know no other light to distract you or whatever, it was. Yeah. Mum loved looking at the stars.
PL: So did you have any sort of shelter at home or —
DS: No. But the people who lived lower down they’d got an air raid shelter. And of course as kids we just used to, well it was always full of water so I think, and we hadn’t got wellingtons so I think if any people had to go in there they would have probably have drowned rather than have been bombed or whatever. But no. And as I say later in the war they built Firth Derrions, a big steelworks in the valley obviously away from Sheffield and there there were big hammers going all night and you used to feel the movement. Lying in bed I could feel the movement before I heard the hammer go, you know. It’s still there is Firth Derrions but the hammers are long gone. And the railway line is, it was the main London to Midland Railway line and a bit further Rowsley was one of the biggest sidings in the country so we were very used to hearing steam engines. And as children, this would be after the war we used to run down the hill on a Friday night, quarter to eight to watch the diesel go past. It would be the opposite now wouldn’t it? You’d run to watch the steam engine wouldn’t you? But yeah, the diesel. So all the children, my friend Betty she lived at the railway crossing. There was a crossing by their house. It was called Nannygoat Crossing. So my best friend was Betty Taylor from Nannygoat Crossing. And at the back of, at the end of their garden was this big fence along the railway line. It was lined up you know just like birds ready to take off I think for the Autumn. We were all lined up waiting for the diesel to come past.
PL: So what about transport? Did you? Buses?
DS: Only the doctor had a car. Nobody had a car. We walked. Everybody walked everywhere you know. I think that’s why our generation are really long livers and fit. The same, you know it’s, we lived up the hill and I used to set off for school, mind this was after the war but I used to set off to school. I went, I managed to pass my scholarship so went to Grammar School in Matlock and had to catch the bus. And I set off from home and I could see the bus leaving Rowsley coming down and I used to run like mad and fly down the hill pretty well to catch the bus. But we walked to school and in fact when I, when I first started at, it was Church Town School. The primary school. Infants and Juniors. It was, it was about, it’s about three miles away I think. Would it be as far as that? No. Perhaps no. Perhaps not as far as that but we didn’t have, there weren’t dinners and so we had to come home for dinner. And I used to dawdle something awful so mum used to meet me on the way with a butty and turn me around send me back again. And then my mum and another friend’s mum started a campaign and eventually managed to get school dinners so that we didn’t have to. I mean I started school at four. You know. There was this small child walking. Doing this there and back. You know. Sort of four. Four times. Yeah.
PL: So how far was it?
DS: What would it be? [pause] It seemed a long way to a little one
PL: For little legs. Yeah.
DS: Yeah. And the thing was, I mean you can’t, I’d be horrified if I thought my grandchildren were doing this now, but you used to walk through the woods by myself. And we went to chapel and that was, that was quite a distance away as well and dad and I went to service on a Sunday morning and then I went to Sunday school on Sunday afternoon and again walked it. And, and of course we had Sunday best. And I can remember I had this pink coat and a bonnet. I hated that bonnet. It was a sort of a pale dusty pink. I can see it now that I only wore on Sunday for church or chapel. We called it chapel then and that was the Methodist church. And I came home through the woods one day and, and found this poor creature which I carefully put inside my coat and brought all the way home for mummy and daddy to make it better. And it happened to be a dead rat and apparently it was creeping with fleas, and there I was with this in the, in my Sunday best pink coat. Wrapped up in the pink coat. I don’t know what happened to this poor, oh I think I said to them would they make poor bunny better? I thought it was, I must have thought it was a rabbit or something. A dead rat. Oh, that was another thing you see talking about food. We foraged so of course we had rabbit and wood pigeon. I can remember mum opening up these wood pigeon on, on the draining board in the kitchen and they were stuffed full of grain. There was hardly any meat on at all but you know that was better than nothing. And our next door neighbour was a retired policemen. He had a shot gun licence and he used to go to Chatsworth to help cull the deer and so of course he came back being paid with a lump of venison. And so of course he brought you know gave, gave mum a bit. She was a good cook. And so we actually ate venison during the war. I don’t like game. I would never, never choose to eat venison now. And hare. No. They smell too much. No. But you know that, that supplemented our, our food. We lived off the land really. And as kids I mean we just we knew which plants you could eat. I mean this time of year, April with the hawthorn just coming out we would pick off the new, the buds. The leaf buds. We’d call that bread and butter. We would eat those. And rabbit’s meat. That’s sorrel. We’d call that rabbit’s meat. And we would we would pull the, the stamens out of clover and suck the nectar out of the end of [pause] We knew all those sorts of things, you know. We knew which things we mustn’t eat. I suppose we were hungry. We were all thin. There weren’t any fat children at school.
PL: So what about when the war came to an end? What happened in the dale?
DS: I remember that morning. Dad didn’t go to work, and we walked down to the main part of Darley Dale. We lived at Northwood at one end of Darley Dale and we walked to where the main part where the shops and things were and everybody seemed to be out. And I can remember some bunting. I don’t suppose it was the day that they declared war over but certainly a few days afterwards, bunting and it was so funny because obviously odd bits of old clothes that people had because I remember seeing something and I felt sure it was somebody’s old bloomers, you know that they’d cut into triangles and hung across the road. Darley Dale was lined with [pause] I think they were plane trees. Lined. No, they weren’t. They were lime trees. There was an avenue of lime trees and this bunting was strung across between, between the lime trees because, oh in Darley Dale there was something called the Whitworth Institute. Joseph Whitworth, the engineer. Well, it was his wife had presented this Institute to the people of Darley Dale and during the war there were, there were soldiers. Injured soldiers were recuperating there and they used to come to our, our chapel which was next door and I can remember on a Sunday night occasionally going to church on a Sunday night and it was packed with all these soldiers singing. I can, I can hear them now. You know. The soldiers singing. Singing the hymns. But, and then at school we all received something signed by King George the Sixth celebrating the end of the war and what have you. I think I’ve probably still got that somewhere because I used to have that hung up in my bedroom. I thought that was wonderful. A message from the King.
PL: And then was there a party or —
DS: No. I can. No. No. No. Because we hadn’t got food, you know. We, we, I mean rationing when on well into the 50s didn’t it? People hadn’t got food to spare really but certainly at Firth Derrions, in their works canteen I can remember a big sing song and a sort of concert and I suppose there would be some food but I don’t, I don’t seem to [pause] I can remember the first time I had an ice cream. I’d never seen ice cream before. And of course fruit. I’d never seen a banana or anything like that. I’ve never like bananas. I was, I was given this banana as a, you know as a very special treat and I didn’t like it at all. I thought it was slimy and horrible and as soon as the person who gave it me went out the room I threw it on the fire back. A precious banana and I threw it away. If, if you, if you had got a health problem, a child with a health problem during the war you were granted extra rations or fruit and I can remember being given an orange by somebody who, who it was a neighbour whose child was a poorly child and they actually gave me an orange. Whether it was my birthday but they gave me an orange. And I thought that was, that was lovely but I didn’t like the banana [pause] And I still don’t like bananas. But we, we acquired, I don’t know where it came from but we acquired a Union Jack and that was hung out of the window, I remember. And of course all the, all the steam engines in the bottom sounded off their whistles. You know, if I remember it was very, very noisy and everybody seemed to be out but again you see I was only, I was only eight wasn’t I? So —
PL: And do you remember dads and brothers and sons coming back to the dale?
DS: Yes. I can remember Pat’s dad coming back. He’d been, he’d been in the Coldstream Guards and he came back in, in his uniform and we thought that was, that was absolutely wonderful and the fact that he was a guard. A guardsman. And then I, I also remember one coming back who’d been a prisoner of, a Japanese prisoner of war and you know he was a very poorly man. Yeah.
[pause]
DS: And I can remember too I’d got, I’d got an older cousin and I used to get her cast offs and one of the cast offs was a dress made from parachute silk. It was beautiful and I can remember spinning around and, you know and the skirt came flared out like that. Oh, I absolutely loved that parachute, parachute silk dress. But another, another that I got was a wool dress. It was sort of moss green. It was a foul colour anyway and it, and it was wool and wartime wool was very itchy and scratchy and very uncomfortable and I hated this dress. But you had to wear what, you know, what you’d got. You didn’t have any choice in buying things because there were clothing coupons, and the shops didn’t have actual choices anyway. But there was, as I say we lived up the hill and there was the basics and then there was the London to Midland Railway Line and then there was the Derwent River. And my dad had said I hadn’t to go near the river. It was dangerous. So, of course what did I do? Went with my friend Betty Taylor from Nannygoat Crossing and Janet who lived further down the road. We crossed the A6 although there wasn’t a lot of traffic then. We crossed the railway and went along by the river and we found a boat tied up. So we were trying to pull this boat in and I fell in and I can remember coming up under the boat. Obviously opened my eyes and I managed to see roots of the tree that the boat was tied to in the water and grabbed hold of them and pulled myself out. Now, I can’t remember whether it was Betty or Janet but one of them ran away and left me and the other one stayed behind and I had to, I hauled myself out the river, back across the railway lane, back across the A6, up the hill home. And when I got home dripping wet and frightened out of my wits my father gave me a real good hiding. Mum thought he was going to kill me. But something good came out of it because it shrank this awful green wool dress and I was never able to wear that again. So you see it what wasn’t at all bad was it?
PL: And how old were you then?
DS: Six or seven I think. But I’m still frightened of water. I mean I can swim. I taught PE and of course you know that was swimming. You had to, you had, at college you had to have a pretty high standard but I still hate water. I’m still frightened of water. But yeah, I did get a walloping and mum’s, mum because I was dad’s girl and mum always said dad was so, you know shocked that I might have died that that was why they gave me a walloping. But you see —
PL: So was the walloping a smack or —
DS: Oh, no. It was the strap. His leather strap. His leather belt. Yes. And it didn’t do me any harm did it? [laughs]
PL: Well, Dinah it’s been so interesting hearing your account. Thank you so much for your interview. It’s really really been fascinating.
DS: Really?
PL: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
DS: With my flat Derbyshire voice.
PL: And all your clocks.
DS: And all my clocks. Yeah.
PL: So I’d just like to thank you again and say that was fascinating.
DS: Has it, has it, has it really been worth your while?
PL: Absolutely. Definitely. Without a doubt. Thank you so much.
DS: Yeah. Well, it’s been a pleasure talking to you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dinah Smith
Creator
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Pam Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithD180420, PSmithD1801
Format
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00:52:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Derbyshire
England--Sheffield
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Dinah Smith was born in Bamford, Derbyshire in 1937, moving to Darley Dale when her father found a new job as an aqueduct linesman. Dinah outlines her experiences of school, friends, foraging for food, and celebrations during the war. She also mentions how the end of the war-affected her village with the returning of the men and post-war rural England.
Two experiences of wartime Britain stood out to Dinah, one of these was the sudden appearance of aircraft over her home around 1943, when the nearby reservoir of Errwood was for low-level flying practice. The second experience was with German prisoners of war that worked with her father. She she was given handcrafted wooden toys by the men, which she presumes happened because they missed their families and because her parents were kind to them.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
childhood in wartime
demobilisation
home front
prisoner of war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1167/11733/ATrotmanPJ180604.2.mp3
4c11d1e2b9ac76fcd78b3c8a985d3116
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Trotman, Percival
Percival John Trotman
P J Trotman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Percival Trotman DFC and bar. (b. 1921 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 150 and 692 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Trotman, PJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DH: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Dawn Hughes, the interviewee is Mr John Trotman. The interview is taking place at Mr Trotman’s home in Shrewsbury, Shropshire, on the 4th of June 2018, and thank you John for agreeing to talk to me today. So can we start off with, if you remember last time we talked about the lead up to joining the RAF so what made you join the RAF? How did it come about?
JT: Well the, obviously there was, everybody was being taken into the services, Army, Navy, Air Force. And I considered the Army but, you could volunteer of course, if you volunteered you would be taken instantly, but otherwise you would be called up, so I felt I should volunteer. So I considered the Army, and I thought about the first world war and I thought there is no way if we get into trench warfare that’s, that’s something I don’t want to be involved in. Navy, I‘m not a very good swimmer so if I’d off into the ocean in the mid Atlantic I’m not going to get very far, so I decided the Air Force was obviously the thing to do, and in any case they had a much nicer uniform. So that was my decision to join the air force. And so, I went and applied at Reading, I was given an interview and then subsequently I was sent up to an airfield in the Midlands where I spent twenty four hours going through a tremendous [emphasis] number of tests. Overnight we slept in a bell tent, all with our feet towards the middle and er, the food wasn’t too bad and then we came home. And then I had to sit and wait, to be called up. And in fact from the time I was there, which was in May 1940 I wasn’t called up until the September, which was quite amazing, first, first of September. I was called up to, went down to Torquay for two weeks and then six weeks in Aberystwyth for basic training. And life changed of course, no longer [laugh] was life a sort of semi-leisurely situation, you were under military orders and of course your life changed completely, of course, and I wasn’t unhappy about that. Obviously like all the others we were keen to go through the training and get on with the job.
DH: Okay. So, what was the initial training like? Can you tell me a bit more about that.
JT: Initial training at Torquay well, you know, it was sort of getting your hands and feet in the right direction and doing all the right things according to drill, and of course you quickly adapt to that. So it was a question of drilling, marching up and down and doing about turns, and you know, there was responding to orders which was what it really was all about; time passed very quickly, until eventually we got our posting, which was to Aberystwyth. To do that we had to go by train, so we got on the train at Torquay but the train got stopped just outside Bristol because there was an air raid going on and we went across and stopped outside Cardiff because there was an air raid going on, and then this train chuffed its way right up to West Wales coast; took a total from midnight when we embarked on the train to Torquay till three o’clock on the following afternoon, on a train with no food, no toilets, we got packed sandwiches, but no toilets so every time the train stopped at a station there was a mass city central in the toilets! [Laugh] Anyway we finally got into Aberystwyth and then we got oriented of course. Where it started, you were out of bed at seven in the morning, in fact you were doing PE at seven o’clock in the morning, so you had to be ready for that, and you did that for half an hour each morning on the sea front, then from half past seven you went back, changed and you had to be at breakfast within quarter of an hour, quarter to eight for breakfast, breakfast finished at quarter past eight, on parade at half past eight, then march to the classrooms and spent all day in the classrooms. That happened every [emphasis] day, except on Saturdays we were, eased off wee bit; we still had things to do on Saturday, but you got Saturday afternoon, and Sunday, except Sunday we had to church parade, in which case I decided, I was Church of England, but I decided I’d try the Catholics and the Jews and everybody else [laugh] so I went to their services as well. That was interesting. At the end of the course, [clock chime] you had to pass and you had to reach a certain standard, and if you didn’t pass that standard then you were out, or as I say you were moved to other things, ground jobs within the air force.
DH: So at that point in time had you, had your trade been established?
JT: Sorry, had it?
DH: Had it been established that you were going to be a pilot or - ?
JT: Oh yes, once you had reached a certain level to their satisfaction yes, you were destined to be a pilot, considered so.
DH: So did you [emphasis] choose that, or did they choose you to do that?
JT: I wanted to be a pilot and I didn’t know until long afterwards that apparently I was rated above average, through sheer hard work and it was that I think got me through to what I wanted to do. That was what I was posted to, Coventry, just outside Coventry.
DH: Can you tell me what happened then, ’cause I believe you had a part in the clear up in the Coventry bombing.
JT: Yes, I was posted in on the, Coventry, the airfield just outside Coventry and that night there was an air raid warning, so we went down into the shelters and of course that was the night that Coventry was blitzed. So the next morning we were loaded into trucks to what, taken into Coventry to see what we could do to help in any way at all. To try and help the military and the civil authority maintain some sort of order and help clear up the worst situations. And the worst situations were something, I don’t think you want to, talk about very much. For example the Owen Owen’s department store had a whole lot of people in it when the air raid started.
DH: It did.
JT: So they were all bundled down to the basement; it was a shelter, but unfortunately Owen Owens got a direct hit: the whole building collapsed in on itself and they were buried, alive and of course I think over eighty people died in that alone. So you can understand that some of the other situations were [sniff] not very nice. So aft, at the end of that day I think we’d had enough and glad to, well right get on with your training now and that’s what we did.
DH: Yeah.
JT: So, that had certainly instilled in me [emphasis] the effects of an air raid at first hand and I thought, like everybody else, we’ve got to give it to them back, they’ve got to know what happens under these circumstances you just can’t do this willy nilly. Obviously they were after targets in Coventry because there was a high concentration of companies: tool makers, aircraft part makers, I think there were six main manufacturers virtually in the centre of Coventry because that’s the way the city became built. And that’s why the centre really, the centre of Coventry got such a battering.
DH: Yeah. I can, I can understand why that would make you think, yeah, I’ve got to do that back, yeah. So from, so that’s your initial training so how did you come to start then, next? You went to Cranwell, didn’t you.
JT: Yes, basic training just outside Coventry then went on to advanced training on twin engined Oxfords at South Cerny in Gloucestershire, at the end of that course they then decided, which way, you qualified for your wings, so you were a qualified pilot at that stage. They then decided your future. Most other people were sent to either to a squadron at that time of the war, or for operational training unit where, for heavier aircraft, at that time Stirling. But for some reason I was sent instead, again I was above average on the course, and I was sent to Cranwell to train as a flying instructor, which surprised me no end. And that meant three weeks on, learning to instruct on the bi-plane and another three weeks learning to instruct on twin engined Oxfords, and it was hard work because there was so much to do. You had to go through twenty eight subjects on each aeroplane, and you had to not only learn that but you also had to espouse this, that as an instructor and I didn’t know how to do that, so it was really hard work for six weeks. While we were there incidentally we suddenly heard a funny noise, rushed to the windows to look outside, and saw an aeroplane take off and it’s got no propeller, this was absolutely amazing! How actually does an aeroplane fly without a propeller? This was of course the basic first jet, so quite amazing sight to see, but, er filled us with wonder and tremendous encouragement I think we’d got the thing that might end the war, for flying anyway, did help, but not till much later, had to be developed. Anyway after that I went back to Shawbury as a flying instructor.
DH: So you were on Oxford Airspeeds there?
JT: Yes.
DH: So, so at this point you’re, you’d done training, you’re an instructor, but you hadn’t seen active service.
JT: Oh no. I stayed in Shawbury for nine months and quite frankly I got to the point where enough was enough, I felt. You trained a few people to fly the plane and then subsequently supervised later in lessons as you went through it. Then the next course came in and you started all over again, and then the next course came in and you went through it all again, very repetitive. And it tested your flying skill at times, because for example the undercarriage and flap levers on the early Airspeed Oxfords were side by side, and if in fact you wanted to, took off an aeroplane for example, you wanted to lift the undercarriage, and you or, you lifted the flaps instead, it can be a hell of a job to get off the ground at all, or alternatively, if you do what we call an overshoot in other words you come in to make an, you do an approach to land and then you command the pupil to open the throttles and go round without landing, and at that stage your flaps are fully down to retard the speed of the aircraft, so in this case if the chap pulled up the wrong lever, the flaps would come up and the plane just sank like that, hit the runway and where it would explode virtually, so you had to be very [emphasis] sure that he pulled up the right lever, [chuckle] and you watched like a hawk to see which one he was going to pull up, and one chap did pull up the wrong lever, I was there, and without any hesitation I whacked my fist down on the back of his hand and knocked the lever back into position! He was protesting strongly that I’d bruised his hand! I said well that’ll remind you which lever you’re pull up in the future. [Laugh] Anyway, life goes on. But at then at the end of nine months I’d had enough, decided to leave. The circumstances of my leaving were unique perhaps in a sense that I took a pupil down to, just north of the A5, towards the midlands and there was a low flying area specifically where we trained people to fly low. The purpose of this to evade enemy fighters because no enemy aircraft can get under you if you are low flying of course, and that’s your vulnerable part. So I took this pupil down there and he wouldn’t fly below two hundred feet so I said, ‘look this is nonsense, you really must get down, now let me show you.’ and I took him down, right down, so low we that were actually hedge hopping over hedges and flying between trees, and he looked with horror at the moment, for a moment or two and then suddenly he began to get the excitement of it all and we came out across an airfield that was under construction. All the work was lots of sea of mud and two runways and right at the intersection of the runways was a big caravan on wheels. And two chaps on the veranda of this were looking out over the scene. Obviously discussing things, the engineer or the architect. It just so happens that this caravan was in my line of flight, and I was only about ten feet off the ground. I flew towards this thing, hopped the plane over the top and these fellows jumped for their lives, unfortunately down into the mud, which was a very naughty thing to do really. But in fact it was, had results because one of the gentlemen was the officer commanding Shawbury, a group captain, and his gold, hat with gold braid fell into the mud which had to be sent away for specialist cleaning and his wonderful uniform got into a mess. I was posted forthwith.
DH: Oh wow!
JT: And frankly it suited me down to the ground actually and I think I got a detrimental report on my, on my record. Still.
DH: So you got moved for doing what you were supposed to be doing!
JT: Yeah, well.
DH: It’s just he got in the way.
JT: He got in the way.
DH: Yeah. Oh wow!
JT: I was very sorry for him afterwards, really.
DH: Yeah. I’m sure you were! [laugh] Not. So when you were posted then, where did you to go then?
JT: I then went to an Operational Training Unit which was at Pershore, in Worcestershire. There, as the Operational Training Unit you had to fly Wellington bombers and to do that you had to have a crew. You got a navigator, wireless operator, front gunner and rear gunner; the front gunner also being a bomb aimer. So you collected your crew, and you met people, you formed a crew, which we did. And then we went through the appropriate training period for that, for that aircraft. Towards the end of the training period, lots of night flying, cross countries where you would fly from that place up to, virtually up to Scotland, down the Irish Sea, to, down to sort of bottom end of Wales, and then fly back into this, that would be a normal night cross country exercise to get the idea of long distance flying at night, and so, you know, we were just, getting towards the end of that training, and suddenly Bomber Harris - chap in charge of Bomber Command of course - decided that he would like to wanted to bomb, do the first thousand bomber raid. Now, Bomber Harris had not got a thousand aircraft in Bomber Command. So he had to take some from the Training Command, some - one or two from Coastal and various other sections - to make up his thousand, which he did. So despite the fact we hadn’t finished our training, six aircraft were designated from our training unit to join this thousand bomber raid, though we hadn’t completed our training at that stage. Fortunately the other five people had a qualified pilot sitting alongside them, so they were all right, but since I was also, got lots of flying hours in, been an instructor, I was told I was going on my own. And so we flew to Cologne which was the first of the thousand bomber raids. Which was quite, that was the first time we did, and quite spectacular it was. The defences were completely overwhelmed with one thousand aircraft did the whole job in about ninety minutes, and that’s really [emphasis] intense bombing, and it virtually destroyed Cologne, most of it in the centre and the outlying areas: devastating. And of course two nights later we all went to Essen to do the same job there, but since, at Cologne we could see everything, visibility was perfect; at Essen there was cloud and we actually had to bomb through the clouds, because we hadn’t developed the Pathfinder thing to the right extent at that stage. And then they said right well you’re operational we’ll post you to a squadron and that was it. So I was posted to, eventually to an Australian squadron just north of the Humber. And when I arrived there the commanding officer was on leave, so we went down to the flight and got us out an aeroplane, one of their aeroplanes and flew it around on navigational exercises we decided on our own, to get used to the area. The engines were not the beautiful engines on the, ones we were used to, these were American Pratt and Whitney engines and if you, they had notorious, they were absolutely notorious because when they took off the noise was out, absolutely outstanding, very noisy aeroplane due to the design of the engine, well, anyway we got used to this, and at the end of the week we were told the CO was back and he wanted to see us. So we marched in, lined up in front of his desk, he points to me, ‘Right, what’s your name and where you from?’ [Australian accent] So I told him, he said, ‘You’re a bloody pom! I don’t want any bloody poms on my squadron, you’re posted!’ - that was it. And so same with my rear gunner who was also English, ‘cause the other three guys were Australian, in my crew, and so they remained, formed another crew, and unfortunately they didn’t survive the war. But the other gunner and I survived the war, that’s, the way things went. We were posted another British squadron this time and to carry on to do the other twenty eight trips necessary to make up the total thirty. So, our crew, Aussie crew, were hell of a nice guys, one from Sydney, one from Melbourne, I forget where the other one was from, and when we first met, when we’re crewing up in the first place, in training, they took one look, said to me ‘Christ we’ve got bloody poms running our, bloody, on us’, I said, ‘Christ we’ve got bloody colonials working for us!’ [Laugh] So all together [cough] we got on like a house on fire, great guys, thoroughly enjoyed it.
DH: Good.
JT: That part.
DH: At what point did you go to RAF Binbrook on the Wellingtons? Is that the period of time you’ve just been talking about?
JT: Yes, that was the time when I was posted just for a brief time to Binbrook.
DH: Yes.
JT: And this turns out to be a mistaken posting for some reason, so we weren’t unhappy about that one. From Binbrook we went to the Aussie squadron and from there we went on to the English squadron.
DH: Right. So. You did some raids, or a raid on, at St. Nazaire. Can you tell me about that?
JT: St. Nazaire, yes. Well, St, Nazaire, like Lorient on the west coast of France of course, were submarine bases, with huge concrete submarine pens there, they were bombed incessantly and so they built these huge concrete pens, so that submarines would come from the sea up, a narrow channel and then dive under the concrete shelters so that they could then load, refuel and ready to come out again. The trick was, while the bomber command had tried all sorts of bombs to penetrate this concrete, waste of time because they were just bouncing off concrete: they could be six nine feet thick, reinforced. So the trick then was to try and catch them either coming in or going out. The most effective way to do that was to drop mines, sea mines, in the, in the channels leading into the bunker, you know. And that we had to do. So to do that you had to fly an aeroplane one hundred feet above the water, at a set speed, because of the, it has to be about, only about a hundred knots, that’s about a hundred and fifteen miles an hour, and then you open your bomb doors and absolutely accurately from one hundred feet above the water, in pitch dark, [emphasis] you had to drop your bombs up the line of the channel. And these bombs, the mines in effect, would sink into the water and they would lay there, and just any metal boat that went across the top of them, the bomb would explode; just lay there all the time. So about six or eight aircraft sowing a whole host of these things on the water, would stop submarines coming back for refuelling and that all sort of out in the Atlantic and they certainly stopped the loaded boats from coming out, ‘cause they couldn’t get out that was the principle of it. It was effective in a sense, but the Germans of course decided that all these mines had got to be set off, and the easiest way to do that was to get a French trawlerman with a metal boat to travel and explode the bombs, and killed the Frenchmen on the way: didn’t matter. That’s effectively what they did.
DH: So they were magnetic I presume.
JT: Hmm.
DH: So they’d come up and hit whatever was metal.
JT: Aye. Well they’d trip, trip a magnetic mechanism within the bomb and [explode sound] go up yes, and sink any French, metal boat that was going over it or submarine for that matter, German submarine. It would sink them The idea was that if we could get a few submarines sunk in the channel that they would stop using the top, have to use the, the two depots.
DH: How long did that, did you do that for? You know, did they make a decision right to stop them?
JT: Yes, virtually, almost continual basis over a period of time, perhaps once a week, once every two weeks you’d go back and have another go and because of this the banks on either side on the approach to this, these were lined up with anti aircraft so when you went there with your hundred feet steadily at that speed with anti-aircraft fire coming in from both sides and you just crossed your fingers you would get through safely and of course you couldn’t take evasive action a hundred feet above the water, the slightest movement you’d be in the water yourself. So it was a, rather a dice with death situation. Not as simple as it sounds.
DH: And can I ask were, did many crews get killed, doing that?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Did many, were many aircraft killed, shot down?
JT: Yes, a few, I don’t know the total frankly, but certainly a few. Well, you were a sitting target so just the way but once the mines were in the water, it was quite effective in inhibiting where the submarines could get, go in and out.
DH: Reading your book, you talked about Lorient, the Bay of Biscay. What happened there? Was that, is that around the St, Nazaire?
JT: That is, yeah, one is up the coast, one is further down the coast, exactly [emphasis] the same sort of situation. Again, the thing was, again there was a channel which the u-boats went in and out and again we were throwing these mines into that channel, to stop, stop their progress.
DH: Yes.
JT: This was particularly important as we, as we got to D-Day of course, we had to stop them dead.
DH: Okay. You mentioned in your book about, is it Mainz, to do with a gentleman called Viv Parry.
JT: Yes.
DH: Can you talk about that please?
JT: We did bombing raid in Hamburg and we had a hard time with that one, and coming back we realised that we were losing fuel, one of the petrol tanks had been holed and we were, not losing fuel from it, and so we got to the point where almost half the way back across the north sea and I had to stop, the engine just stopped for lack of fuel and I feathered the propellers and we were now flying on the one engine, bit tricky because we hadn’t got very much fuel left, so in the remain, tanking on the other side, so by cutting its power back, on the engine, so it consumed less fuel, we also were losing height until eventually we crossed the Yorkshire coast very low indeed and we were desperate to look for somewhere to land and I was really dicing because it was a question as to how long we would stay in the air, give us time to find an airfield to land on. In fact we ran out of fuel. And so from about a thousand feet I had to suddenly look round in the early dawn, to find somewhere to land the plane. I suddenly spotted one just about the last hop would do the trick, dead engines, the plane just wasn’t exactly a good glider, it came down fairly rapidly, I managed to screw it round get into the airfield and do a perfect belly landing which I thought this is absolutely superb, marvellous. I even thought, you know how good it was, until eventually, we approached a copse where were quite, fairly slow down, then suddenly the wing tip on the right hand side collided with a young tree, just projecting out, and this had the effect of swinging the plane round, rapidly, it came to a stop. Now part of the procedure in all this crash landing is that the crew goes into what we call crash position and brace themselves. I stayed in the cockpit doing the flying and they all brace themselves. The rear gunner turned his turret to one, to right angles like that to the, to the line of flight, and he opened his little back doors and he unstrapped himself so as he could get out quickly, and the unfortunate effect of this, this catching the wing, swinging the aircraft like that it ejected him from the rear turret, he must have flown through the air about twenty, thirty feet, landed, unfortunately broke his neck and it was me was, to discover this. A complete shock, you know one of your own crew, one of your best and close friends; suddenly there he is lying dead. You can’t stand there, do nothing.
DH: No.
JT: So, was a question of having him covered up, one chap stayed with the plane and the body, and the other guys were sent in different directions, and I went off to look, we all went to look for help get to a telephone and get to the air force and that’s where I sort of waded into a, through a canal, put my boots back, on knocked on a farm door, the farmer eventually answers the door, looked at me, I was bloodied, because I’d cut my head badly, blood all over my face, I was wet, I looked a wreck, and, he didn’t know what I was, in fact he thought probably I was a German, he didn’t, my speech was a bit slurred. Anyway I managed to convince him who I was and he invited me in and put through a phone call, called his missus down from upstairs and she came down in her nightie, a little dressing gown over the top, being a practical woman of course, she immediately got a bowl of hot water and started cleaning up the wound and making me reasonably respectable and for good measure stuffed a big double whisky down me, [laugh] in to me which made me feel just a little bit better at that time. So we got recovered, plane and everything else. And we set off on leave of course. Viv Parry was buried in a graveyard in Anglesey, where he lies to this day.
DH: Was the plane re-usable after that?
JT: No, only in parts. The strain put on the crash landing and the effect of hitting the tree couldn’t support some of the metal parts, so they weren’t prepared to risk taking off the wings and trying to get it to fly again, when they reassembled it, so I think they used it for spares, so we never saw it again.
DH: At some point after that I understand you went to Tilstock, as an instructor. Was that after, that was after that was it?
JT: Yes, after the tour of operations I was posted to Tilstock in Whitchurch. I was there for quite a time. Flying Whitleys, Whitley, old fashioned Whitley bombers. You took pilots up and you trained them to fly the plane and when they were qualified as you felt fit and you, you put the crews in and then they went off on to practice, cross country work round the country, all round the country, the bombing range at er, just across, not far from here, they used that as a bombing range, of course other bombing ranges were in different parts of the country. So they had to navigate their way to this particular bombing area, do the bombs and then carry on a circuit, prescribed circuit and then come back. In other words it’s a virtual imitation of what they’d be doing when they qualified. And it was from there, they went on, at that stage of the war most of them would go to what we call a conversion units to convert from two engines to four engines, and then from the conversion unit, with a crew they would go on to operations, operational trips. Tilstock was a nice post. It was a relief to survive to become an instructor on that, one or two adventures of course, there always is. Which isn’t always totally reliable.
DH: So you completed, was it thirty ops, you completed thirty ops before you went there.
JT: Yes, at that stage.
DH: So that’s where you got the DFC.
JT: Er, I didn’t get the DFC till much later in the war, I realise is utterly wrong, when I joined the Pathfinders.
DH: So after Tilstock what happened then?
JT: Well, they decided at Tilstock should, was approaching the end of 1943, and they decided they wanted to train people to gliders, towed gliders to go in into the invasion, and so the whole airfield was converted to a different type of aircraft and towing gliders and mixed in with the Army. And so I was moved on to a place called Peplow, not far from Wellington, and there I became an instructor on another different type of aircraft altogether, Wellington. Which I gave up after a while became test, briefly a test pilot for every one that, every aeroplane that came out of over, being overhauled I would fly it to make sure everything was in order. I decided early on, that to avoid any errors, I’d, the chaps who worked on the aeroplane, the fitters and riggers, had to fly with me when I did the test flight. They quickly cottoned on, they made sure that if they flew with me on the test flight it had to be right, and so apparently the quality of the servicing shot up! [laugh, cough] Just a little trick you learn.
DH: That’s a very good trick!
JT: From there on, after D-Day I decided I had to get back into the war, that’s you know, going on to Mosquitos.
DH: Can you tell me about Mosquitos then?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Can you tell me about your time on Mosquitos then please?
JT: Yes, the Mosquito was a beautiful aircraft, it was never given an awful lot of publicity, but was a workhourse and did a lot of good work. So we had two weeks on a training course, joined up with a navigator, chap, navi, Tubby, Bernard Tubbs his name was, my navigator, thin as a rake, but because of his name he was called Tubby, and we got on like a house on fire. He already done a tour of operations himself on Lancasters, so he was a good navigator and an experienced one and I’d done a tour and been an instructor. So we went in to Pathfinders and in two weeks, we’d not, I think only a short four hours, flying the Mosquito. Lovely aeroplane to fly, really was, we were very pleased with that. In fact one stage I think I flew over the centre of England and I could see Ireland on that side, and half way across the north sea on the other side, in those days yo,u flying at thirty five thousand feet, was something so rare, you know, didn’t happen. Today it’s commonplace of course, had to, had to have oxygen, and it was a nice scene rarely, rarely you get weather that good in Britain. Anyway, from there we went, posted to Gravely, in er, not far from Cambridge, and we did our second tour of operations, another forty operations over Germany with the Mosquito. The Mosquito was used in various ways Pathfinder squadron. So either you would join in an air raid on a particular German city. The principle was that the main force, of Lancasters and so on, would go to the target. We would take, they were, we would take off after them because we were a lot faster, we then flew over the top of the bombing raid, got in to the target ahead of them and then dropped right the way down and spread markers on the ground so that they knew what to bomb. So by the time they came in, we’d put all the markers there and so they could come in and bomb the markers and know that they’d done an accurate bombing job. So as we were Pathfinders we were prime targets for the Germans of course, but that was the way it was. But apart from that, we did not many of those strangely enough. We were sent off, because at this time of the war, the idea was to be bombing as many Germans cities every [emphasis] night as possible. That meant the workers were down in the cellars and if they’re down in the cellars they couldn’t be making guns and ammunition and aeroplanes. And it was quite effective in that sense. So a lot of the trips we did, fifteen, twenty, twenty five thousand feet, over various, while the heavies were doing all their damage over one part of Germany and we were scouting out and dropping bombs on other parts of Germany. That was the general idea of it all. So flying at twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet, today’s jets, was quite common. We were very fortunate, because they developed one type of Mosquito that could specially fly that high, the engines were slightly more, got more beef in them, they provided heat, and they provided some pressurisation which was virtually unknown in those days. So in fact we were flying in a pressurised, heated aeroplane, rather like today [laugh,] really deluxe stuff. In fact we were the only squadron who had this type of aeroplane. Quite remarkable, but it was a nice way to go! Until you had trouble of course, and then, then it wasn’t. Because if you suddenly lose the heat, and the oxygen, at about twenty five thousand feet, you got difficulties.
DH: Yes, I can imagine.
JT: Because above fifteen thousand feet, no oxygen, you’re [pooft sound], you then become unconscious quite quickly, apart from the fact that you’re flying at temperatures of, at that height, could be minus thirty, minus forty degrees.
DH: Did you ever have any close shaves like that?
JT: The only time I’ve ever had was, was, having flown down to, started off and flew to the target in south Germany and, in the normal way you climb up to, in that case I think it was twenty five thousand feet, and then head off for the target. But the plane I was in, I’d got up to about five thousand feet and suddenly I looked the temperatures and the pressures on the engines and the temperatures were up and the pressures were down, which meant the engine was over, both engines were overheating; that wasn’t good news, particularly when you’ve got a bomb, big bomb on underneath you. So I levelled out and flew the plane a short while, level, throttled back the engines and they seemed cool down, to almost normal. So again I opened and climbed another three or four thousand feet, again they overheated and I levelled out, they cooled down, then I went up in steps to about seventeen, eighteen thousand feet I think, and I thought this is silly, so I flew along for a while at, about that height, eighteen thousand I think it was, and the engines came down, to, temperatures were up, slightly up, pressures slightly down, not enough to worry about anyway, so I thought right we’ll go, but of course this was all time consuming. Whereas we should have been first on the target to mark it, the other guys were way ahead, including the main bomber force. So we plodded our way down towards the target, and we got within sight of the target which we, thirty, forty miles ahead, I suddenly looked at the port engine temperatures were up, way up [emphasis] pressures right the way down, if I left it running it would just stop, catch fire, and in a wooden aeroplane that it not good news, so immediately cut the engine, switched everything off, cut the fuel and everything else, carry on with one engine but I daren’t open the other engine because we got ourself in trouble with that one, so I had to leave that one as it was, which was in a cruising position because one engine, two engines support the plane, one engine doesn’t, so the plane progressively started to lose height. So instead of bombing the target at twenty five thousand feet that night or whatever, we were down to five thousand feet by the time we got to the target which was thoroughly well alight, but fortunately the bombing raid was over and the Germans were all rushing around putting out the fires and dealing with everything. So we flew in straight over the target at five thousand feet, which is very low, let our bomb go right bang into the centre of the target we were aiming to do. And of course, as soon as the Germans spotted that, they’d heard a, an aeroplane with one engine, not two, so they thought it was one of their own that far down in Germany.
DH: Wow.
JT: So they assumed it had to be one of their own with those engines, so that’s why we got in dropped the bomb and it was only then that they realised who we were and then suddenly there was a whole barrage of stuff, heading out at us, we just did a quick turn, that way rather, and vanished into the darkness, and worked our way back up, in fact because we hadn’t got a bomb, we’d used half our fuel, so made the plane was much lighter of course. So with the one engine left in that cruise position it actually climbed and back up at eighteen thousand feet. So we kept a sharp eye out to be sure we weren’t going to be followed or attacked and crossed over the border into Belgium, and suddenly I looked at this engine, the temperature had crept up, the pressure was down, and I thought that’s it, you know, just the way these things were going, we had no hope of getting it back to the UK. So that’s when we called it, started calling up ‘Mayday, Mayday’. Got no response. So I thought there’s only one thing to do, let’s try, may, I think I sent out nine maydays altogether, in groups, nothing and er, so I said right, we’ll go. So Tubby went down and tried to release the bottom hatch which is the normal way to go out, but of course we were pressurised. So the only other was out was through the top, you pull emergency lever and the hatch flies away, top hatch, flies away. The whole plane was depressurised, that meant that anything lightweight [swooshing sound] was sucked out of the plane: chocolate bars, baps everything went out the top, [laugh] which didn’t matter at that stage anyway. And so he clambered up, and went out through, I brought the plane back to as low a speed as I dare, which was only about ninety miles an hour, and he went out through the top, and parachuted. I thought well, that’s me, I’m next. So the idea is, you switch off the engines, chop the fuel, put the plane into a glide and you go out through the top as well. By that time I could have got out through the bottom with the pressure’d been released, either way I was just about close the engines down I thought I’ll give one [emphasis] more try and I went, ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday,’ and immediately a voice came back, in English, and said, you know, ‘what’s your problem?’, so I told him, and in no time at all they’d put up a cone of searchlights and the engine by this time was on its last legs, I really pushed it [cough] I landed the plane with almost, one, just, barely an engine working at all, managed to get the undercarriage and flaps down and landed and it was, it was a forward English fighter aircraft base, fortunately was also a maintenance unit, so I thought well that’s good. So I checked in with the people there, and they said we well can’t do anything tonight, but we’ll send a wire to er, I said why don’t you just send a wire back to the squadron to tell them where I am? ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘well, I’ll send a signal’ but he said, ‘no chance,’ he said, ‘there’s so much going on in Europe at the present time, the chance of your getting a signal back are fifty-fifty.’ So I said ‘well how do the squadron know that we’re missing?’ I said. ‘Well the only way they know you are missing is ‘cause you don’t come back, from their point of view.’ So just had to hope that somehow a signal could find its way through in the end. So I, they found me a bed to sleep on that night, and we looked around the aeroplane the next day they said well they were too busy today with other fighter aircraft to get them in the air, so we’ll try and look at your plane tomorrow. So that was it. That night we went out to a bar, we got in the car trundled along, and there’s nothing on the road generally at night, except we came across a couple of wagons, French peasants, and there hanging lanterns under the wagon that’s to tell, so you know that if coming up from behind, [laugh] you know there’s something in your way. We went into a bar there and, had a couple of drinks and were drinking away happily, and suddenly there was a click, click, click of heels, sorry, we decided, having had a drink we decided go to the loo. So we were standing there was we gentlemen do, and suddenly a click, click of heels and women walked right past us, so I looked at this gentleman and ‘Oh’ he said, ‘don’t worry chum, you’re in Belgium now, men and women use the same toilets.’ [Laugh] I’d learnt a lesson! Anyway the next day they did look at the mossie, the one engine that had failed they said nothing much we can do with that its either a new engine or we’ve got to strip it right down, and refurbish it which will take time, so I’m sorry you can’t use your aeroplane unless you can take off on one engine and the runway wasn’t very long and in any case each side of the runway was lined with German planes that had been dropped off their, down off all their undercarriages, so you daren’t deviate off the runway. So I said no, I’m not going to take this plane off like that. The plane had a tendency to swing to the left on take off and if you tried it, you came to that, the left hand engine, running ahead of the right hand and that’s how you took off a mossie, the way, as long as you knew the trick, that was the way to do it. So I said if you try to take a mossie off with the starboard engine running full out and nothing on the left hand side, the tendency to swing to the left is going to be accentuated and I have no way of countering it. If I had got a very, very long runway of about three or four miles, I could gradually ease it up and with time, I could work it, get power up and get off the ground, but you haven’t got that long a runway. And if I did take it off on your runway, once I’m airborne, the chances are the plane will just flick over on its back and dive in the ground and I don’t intend to commit suicide at this time. So I said no, you’ll have to repair it. So they said well can you fly a Wellington bomber? I said yes, I can fly a bomber. We’ve got one in the hangar we want to get back to the UK, we can have it ready by tomorrow. So I said all right I’ll fly that back. So we that night, we went to a local, he said come on, we’ll go to a better place than we did last night. So we went to this place, semi-circular building, and virtually in the centre, sort of half a circle, as it were, circle in the centre of that was a woman behind a humendous cash, national cash register, biggest one I’ve ever seen, and stairs going up, and a lot of dance music seemed to be coming down from upstairs, I thought that’s nice for the lot of air force lads, lot of army lads, said it must be nice for these lads, a night out. And so I was chatting, we got beers brought across to us, and sitting there chatting away and suddenly a very beautiful [emphasis] woman, girl must have been in her early twenties I suppose, came across, sat down beside me. I glanced at her, didn’t take any note, carried on talking. She tapped me on the shoulder, says, ‘You no like me?’ I said, ‘Oh yeah, very, very nice,’ and carried on chatting. She tapped me again, I forget her name was, she gave me a French name, ‘oh yes, I recognise that, but I’m talking to this, my friend,’ and suddenly she was stroking me round the, [chuckle] round the unmentionable area. I thought what the hell’s going on here and my colleague was laughing like hell. Of course we’d come to a, an appropriate place for that sort of thing! I said, ‘Look I’ve got a girl, I’m not going to get into this sort of situation.’ ‘Oh!’ he said, ‘you can’t leave now you’ll insult the girl, insult the management and if you get like that they’ll think nothing of cutting your throat when you get outside.’ ‘Oh’ I said, ‘that’s a difficult situation,’ and I thought, I turned to this girl with my friend, so I said to her, ‘I’m sorry, but we are only here for a short time because we have to go flying, so I would like to come back and see you tomorrow, at seven o’clock.’ And she said, ‘oh, oui monsieur’. So I stood up, she stood up, shook hands, kissed on both cheeks, I got this bloke and went out the door and said [mutter] ‘spoilt my whole evening!’ [laugh] So we got out and the next day I flew the Wellington back to the United Kingdom. And then finally got back to the squadron. My navigator landed in a ploughed field and because you got the plough, the way the ploughed field is, you put one foot on, down the trough and one foot on, got himself a black eye so he didn’t feel so good, but anyway managed to bury his parachute in a ditch, kind of off the main road because there’s no hedges or fences, and looked at the stars, decided which was north, south east and west, and decided he’d go west, or north west, which is, the road was generally in that direction. He plodded along for a while and he came to a village. He looked around the village for a plaque, you know doctor, found plaque there, banged on the door, finally chap opens the window upstairs, you know, ‘Qui est la?’, - who is there? - and so he told him who he was, in his fractured French, and ‘Non, non, non. Allez!’ Slammed the window and told him to go away, which he thought well that’s not good for a doctor, so he banged on the window again, door again and the chap opened the door and pointed a double-barrelled shotgun at him. ‘Allez, allez!’, you know, and so there’s no arguing with a shotgun, so he walked away and told the, told the chap he should have married his wife in b, in voluble English language –
DH: Yes.
JT: - hobbled along and down the road for a while and suddenly he heard some vehicles coming towards him from the west and thought well now, are they retreating Germans or are they advancing Allies? So he dropped down the ditch out of sight. All the stuff trundled past: vehicles, tanks, trucks. And eventually one stopped just above him, stayed silent as the grave because if he’d emerged from the ditch and decided he was English, they would just shoot him and leave him in the ditch. So he kept very quiet, till a voice said, [American accent] ‘Hey Mac, will you give me a cigarette?’ He was out of the ditch like a shot! The headlights of the jeep across, identified himself and they said, ‘horrible weather, mac,’ they were pointing at, two cocked pistols pointed at him. Americans, you know, quick on the draw, anyway eventually he identified himself, one American soldier sat at the back of the jeep, he sat in the front by the driver with a pistol in his back and they went back to the local military depot and before long they get into another American airfield, I’m sorry, and given food, medical treatment, sorted out and sent to bed. And they said well, we’ll see if we can get a message back to you, into Britain but you know how it is, we have to report back to brigade headquarters and they have to report to London, and London has to report to the Air Ministry and by the time they get around be an age, he said until you are identified, positively identified back from your Air Ministry you’ve got to stay here! So a couple of days went by so enough’s enough, then eventually a chap flew in, came in to the mess where he was, an American pilot, he got chatting to him, ‘Yeah, I’m on delivery, at present on Dakotas and I’m bringing in supplies sure I can give you a lift back, take you to Southampton, is that all right?’ So he flew back, back in this thing to Southampton, and got some money out of the American adjutant to get him back home, and went home to check with his parent to say, tell them he was all right, and then got to London and then came back to the airfield and I was very pleased to see him. So he had his little adventure in his own way.
DH: He certainly did, didn’t he!
JT: And then we carried on with the war, as you do. [Rustling]
DH: So is, after that had happened [rustling] obviously D-Day had happened by then, and we were with the allies as plans, so what part did you take then, after that, before the end of the war?
JT: Well, we, we continued bombing into Germany because that’s where, you know the stuff was, ammunition, guns, tanks were still being made. and it was important to stop those. But there was a case where, just before Christmas 1944 that we established that there was a tremendous build-up of arms, ammunition, everything else, in West Germany where, at the point where they go through a series of tunnels and they come into France. They quickly picked up that there might be an attack down there, but, so what happened they were a bit slow in getting the, moving troops into the area to contain it, and that was where the Americans did a breakthrough actually about that time, unfortunately the weather was, we couldn’t fly in the weather that was going on at the time, so there was nothing really to stop these guys actually, bursting their way back, Germans bursting their way back into France. So the only way we could tackle this was to close down the tunnels, that’s where the supply route was. So the job was to fly down the banks, where the tunnel was, fly down the banking on either side, down along the tunnel railway tracks about twenty feet up and then drop a bomb, so it was actually, you thew, literally threw your bomb into the tunnel with a delayed action fuse and hoped that it worked, and of course it was unfortunate that all the tunnels had got machine guns rooted round them so you went in, you know under those conditions, it was, just so happened this happened when I was on a day off, or stood down for the day anyway, but I know that our squadron did go in and they did drop some bombs, blew up a lot of the tunnels in that area, so as to stop the trains getting through. And one of my colleagues was last seen going down in flames, was obviously shot into bits. But it was a tough time. Anyway, it all helped to stop the Germans and their supplies getting through, and in the May, stopped because they only got so far, then they ran out of fuel and they had to pick up the fuel locally where they could, there sort of, there was no further supply of ammunition, so they were isolated and the whole thing failed of course.
DH: Was that still flying Mosquitos then?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Was that still flying Mosquitos?
JT: Oh yes, yes. So we were getting towards the end of the war at this stage and just wanted to finish, but still we had targets we had to hit. Hammering Berlin was the usual; we went to Berlin nineteen times. Try and hammer them into submission, you know. I’m not sure the public wanted submission, but they’re not being allowed to submit, under those circumstances, and then Hitler committed suicide, and his lady friend and the war ended quite quickly after that.
DH: So how regular were you going, in that period of time, how regularly were you going? Like, every day? Every two or three days?
JT: Sorry?
DH: To do a bombing run. How often were you going?
JT: I’ll tell you. [Shuffle of paper] Trying to catch up, yeah, so many pages, ah yes, yes, it’s er, ah right, 21st October: Hamburg, 10th of November: Hannover, 11th of November [indistinguishable], 21st of November: Hannover, 24th of November is Berlin, 25th is Nuremburg, so it’s sort of two nights running quite often then a break. 27th of November was Hannover, 29th was Duisburg, 30th was Duisburg. December 1st was Karlsruhe, so you know, it was -
DH: All over the place, and regularly.
JT: December, that’s when I had the trouble, December the 5th, I didn’t get back to flying operationally, until February the 5th after it was, I forget what happened earlier, it was Berlin, Mannheim, Berlin, Berlin, [tuning pages] Erfurt, Berlin, Berlin, Dessau, Berlin, Berlin, Bremen, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Dessau, Berlin, Berlin, Hamburg Munich Berlin, Berlin, Kiel, Munich, airfield and so on.
DH: Yeah.
JT: Some of them little bursts of two or three days and then a break.
DH: Yeah. So in between bombing raids what did you get up to?
JT: Oh well, you went out to a local pub and had a few beers! [Laugh] The main thing was you drank in the mess sometimes but the tendency was to get away from the atmosphere, the flying and everything else, into a local bar and meet with normal people.
DH: Can you think of any capers that people got up to?
JT: Oh, I can’t think of anything particularly but I’m sure they did! [Chuckle] There were sometimes you’d get to the pub and there’d a drinking party going on, not very common the publican in those days had to close at ten o’clock prompt at night. So he’d close the front door at ten o’clock then open the back door, so if you wanted to drink you went to the back door and kept going till two or three in the morning, as long as his beer ration lasts.
DH: I was going to say that, was there much beer?
JT: There seemed to be a reasonable amount of beer going round but you, if one pub ran out of beer then you moved on to the one that had beer - the word quickly got around on these situations.
DH: Very good. So.
JT: In other words get away from the military atmosphere get into a relaxed atmosphere. It was good to do that –
DH: Absolutely
JT: - otherwise the whole thing would bear down on you and you’d be no good to anybody.
DH: So after VJ day how do you think the war affected you, did it affect you in any way?
JT: Well I think a) we were glad the European war was over, but remember the far east war was still on. We were given some opportunities to choose what we wanted to do. I’d always thought the idea, we were still ferrying Canadian built Mosquitos from Canada, and flying via Greenland, Iceland to Europe and then you went back on a commercial transport of some sort and then brought another one in. But then fortunately I investigated it, and I found that in Iceland the weather conditions can be such that suddenly like a cold air meets the warm air and a blanket of fog [noise] just descends on the airfield and you could be flying from [cough] Greenland to Iceland, suddenly arrive at Iceland and they’d be blanked out with fog. there was no way you can land the aeroplane and you certainly wouldn’t have enough fuel to head to England, or Scotland. So they were stuck there bail out waste of aeroplane so on, and if you landed in the sea up there you didn’t last very long anyway.
DH: No. Oh my god!
JT: So I thought this is almost as bad as operational flying, so I thought right I think I’ll give that one a miss! [Laugh] So I went to an Operational Training Unit then, so I could train people to fly, and it was a more relaxed atmosphere, in any case the air force had decided the there’s no point now doing operational flying; the war’s over, so the amount of flying it was doing less and less and less, and so they had to keep us occupied, with either courses or you had to take parades you were in to the old pre-war military situation of parades and officialdom really came into its own. And these characters who had been sitting around, administrators and everything else, been doing as they’re told for all this time emerged from the woodwork and didn’t make life too easy for the people flying. [Clock chimes] In the end I decided anyway the particular airfield I was on, that I wouldn’t, I’d got extended service, that is to say I applied for, and they gave me extended service, that meant I could continue with the service till it, the air force had sorted itself out in which case I could remain in the air force and carry on using it as a career, so I thought I might well do that. Until I got to this station, particular airfield, where I became an instructor there, along with others, but one of the problems with it, in the officers mess at I was at this time there were two squadron leaders, and they were bango whizzo type characters who didn’t think the war was over, so they’d think nothing of walking on the ceiling and drinking themselves silly and making the whole, most in fact people didn’t go into the mess any more, they couldn’t stand these two characters. But unfortunately there was no one in a senior position, the group captain who ran the station was due to leave the air force anyway any minute, so he’d lost interest in the field, the wing commander also in charge, he was in a similar situation so there was no real [emphasis] somebody to do something about it. And one of the, favourite trick of these two drunks, was about two o’clock in the morning they close the bar in the officers mess and they’d go round tossing people out of bed just as a, just for fun, and I remember about half past two in the morning you’d suddenly find yourself on a mattress on the floor being tipped out of bed, and these two characters guffawing like mad and going ahead and trying somebody else. I thought this just isn’t going to happen. So I thought, all right, and three nights later, drunk again, I could hear them coming down the passage, so I got up, stood behind the door, one of them barged in, I closed the door right behind him. I got hold of him, slammed him up against the wall, he was drunk mind you, and I put my fist under his nose and I told him, you ever come in here again, you’ll know what you’ll get. I made sure he understood that, and I opened the door and pushed him out and he fell on the floor, drunk of course, in the passage outside, when he looked at me I knew one thing, right there and then, I was a flight lieutenant, he was a squadron leader. I had insulted and virtually assaulted a superior officer and I could be in real trouble. So I thought that’s it, I thought about it, so I sat down and wrote my resignation from the air force there and then and requested immediate, you know, removal from the air force, and I went first thing in the morning at half past eight I was in the, put the letter in the hands of the adjutant officers. And at ten o’clock, or half past ten I think it was, I was told to report to him, and he was an old timer, a bit of a character, and he threw the, he threw this thing across the desk at me, ‘what’s this nonsense about, why should you leave the air force?’ And that’s when I’m afraid I lost my dignity and a lot of temper, we were all stewed up about the situation, I let him have it, hard, about how the station was not being run properly, about the mess was a mess, mess was a mess, these two squadron leaders acting like overgrown schoolboys and disgrace [emphasis] to the service and gave him a long lecture about this. Me a flight lieutenant, lecturing the commanding officer, and he was going purple in the face, nobody’d ever spoken to him like this. I said that’s my decision to leave, sir, gave him a smart salute, about turn and walked out! And I was out of the air force in a week, that’s in a week, I was gone, civilian life, got rid of me. But [emphasis] I still had contacts back in the, back in the mess, and a chap actually ring me, er two weeks later and said I don’t know what you did but by god things have changed, you rattled the CO something rotten and he went into the mess at about eleven o’clock one night, found these two squadron leaders drunk as, like I have described to you, making a mess of themselves. and he you know, suddenly they spotted him, standing in the background, ‘Hello sir, good evening sir, come and have a drink. sir,’ you know, something stupid like that. He turned round and walked out. So the two squadron leaders were posted forthwith to different areas, left the station, and this chap said suddenly the whole atmosphere of the mess, everybody came back into the mess, the whole atmosphere changed, wonderful, nice to have it back again, nice to have our mess back again. So he said I don’t know what you did, by golly it worked. So I was rather pleased that something had come out of it anyway.
DH: Did you have any regrets about leaving?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Did you have any regrets about leaving?
JT: In a sense no, because the air force was changing, it was no longer, the wartime service was, I know it was death and destruction but you were in, a tight family, you knew everybody, knew what was going on, were up to date, but suddenly there was nobody to fight. And so, as I say they had to keep us occupied, so we were up to, a lot of administrative duties were thrust at us, which, a lot less flying was being done, the whole atmosphere was beginning to change, as I say these people who’d been in the background: administrators and everything else, now came to the fore and weren’t making life too easy for the flying people. It was just one of those situations at that time. So I said enough’s enough, I’m off and that’s really precipitated my leaving.
DH: So what did you do then with your life after you left?
JT: Well, I hadn’t made up my mind really what I wanted to do, except that in my home village for many years, they decided, the local authority decided that the village should be by-passed and the by-pass was rumoured for a long time and then it became something more important after the war, something they could get on with. So I thought well, the situation was that my father ran a garage anyway, and what we would do was open up a petrol station on this by-pass probably with sort of motel type accommodation or accommodation of some sort, and that would be a good idea. So, I knew the, roughly where this thing was planned to go, and so I approached the landowners with a view to possibility of purchasing this land, but the word had obviously got around what was happening, so the idea of a) they refused and b) they raised the price so, it was all, eventually I gave up on this it was a good idea, but not practical for me, a rather penniless man trying to get into the world, it just didn’t happen. So, er, I was escorting my lady friend at that time, she lives up here and obviously offered me a chance of connection up here and the chance of joining Hoover, I thought well, something to do keep me occupied for a while. So I went on a training course, a few training courses, before I knew it I was the manager, regional manager and the whole of Birmingham and the Midlands was all, then moved down, they moved you about every four years, moved over and looked after the western half of London and out in to the counties, east part of London and into the counties, then up to the west country taking over the whole of Devon and Cornwall and all that sort of area like that, and then moved up to the north as you do, every four years until we finally settled there, just up the road in Cheshire. So it was a very nomadic sort of life particularly when you’re bringing up youngsters and various schools they had to attend. No, I enjoyed that, responsibility and everything else, just upsetting moving for the children’s education point of view, but from the housing point of view it was an advantage, because that was the time after the war onwards, house prices were rising. First house I bought was a semi-detached house on the outskirts of Birmingham for £1,975. Then we moved to Harrow where I paid £3,200 for a four bedroomed semi-detached, from there I moved to, er, Chelmsford, about £4,900 for a brand new, four bedroomed detached property with double garage, and from there I moved down to the west country. I paid £7,250 for a four bed detached double garage in a nice area, and from there we moved up to Cheshire where I in fact, I bought a piece of land and had a four bed detached property with double built there. So I took advantage of the rising prices, I don’t know what the last Cheshire one was, about, I don’t know three or four hundred thousand, something like that. Ridiculous when you think about the prices.
DH: I know. It’s daft isn’t it.
JT: Crazy. And as long as the land is restricted to build on, so the prices will maintain their, and that’s the problem Where do you find land to build that doesn’t upset people.
DH: That’s right.
JT: So. But there’s a lot of land available that’s not being utilised. Anyway, that’s another story.
DH: Can I ask, can you think of any occasions when you were absolutely scared to death during the war?
JT: [Breath out]
DH: Did you get scared?
JT: Oh yes, I think you did get scared. You, the thing about being a pilot, you daren’t, particularly when you’ve got a crew, you daren’t show it, you know your heart’s in your mouth and all that sort of thing, I know that dropping these mines in that water at a hundred feet with people springing out everywhere ‘am I going to make it, am I not going to make it,’ and when you go in, you think, well there’s a job to do, I’ll do it, but whether I’ll survive it I don’t know, and I did. But somehow and I think I explained in the book, my mother, grandmother on my mother’s side had this virtue of, or they called it a virtue, had second sight, that is to say she could, tell you things that are going to happen, before they happen. For instance, for example, she was doing some washing in her house, my mother told me this, suddenly she took off her apron, put on her hat and coat, took a tram in those days to the other end of Eastbourne, she knocked on the door of a house she’d never been to before in her life, she told the woman who answered the door she was to go immediately [emphasis] to a hospital in London, her husband was calling for her. She so convinced the woman that she caught the train, went in to London, she arrived at the man’s, her husband’s, bedside half an hour before he died. How did she know that?
DH: Wow.
JT: My mother had it to a lesser extent, I never really thought, well I’d heard these stories but you don’t take, as a kid you don’t, it doesn’t mean much to you. It was strange enough I got to one point on the squadron where I knew instinctively [emphasis] whether a crew would survive or not. At first that was a frightening experience, you get the guys and then a couple of weeks later they’re gone. And you know, when you’re losing crews like that, that’s not, it’s no good, you know, this instinctive feeling I had about it I just had to submerge it, forget about it. But it was there, I could tell if they were going to live or die when they came on the squadron. Never happened before or since. Can you explain it?
DH: No, I can’t.
JT: Probably inherited in the family, something like that.
DH: Probably, yeah.
JT: But, er, something my sons never had, not that I’m aware of.
DH: You said right at the beginning that, when you’d gone to Coventry and when you saw what happened there, you wanted to, you wanted the Germans to understand what we were going through. By the end of the war did still think that, did you have any regrets about what you’d done? Any dilemma in your head or anything?
JT: Not really. The idea was you know, to, really try to bomb them into submission, to agreeing to stop the war was all we wanted, to stop the war, and that was what the bombing was all about, apart from the invasion of course to stop these people fighting, that was all we wanted, and when it was over that was it. I think perhaps we tidied it up a bit better after this war than we did after the first world war, but it was not doing the job properly after the first world war enabled the Nazi party for example, to rise. It hasn’t happened so far in Germany and we hope that, it is obviously a reasonable country.
DH: Is there anything else that I haven’t, or we haven’t covered, while we’ve been talking that you think might be of interest to people?
JT: Not really, I can only express this from a man’s point of view in the situation, from the women’s point of view: wives and sweethearts, and all that sort of thing, it was tough because the men, we go off to war and you’re never going to know if you’re going to see them back ever again, that was a tough situation particularly as the families were concerned that was, was rough because there were many widows as a result of all this, plus the effect of war which was disastrous really, we don’t want wars but if you’re forced: you fight back, and that’s the result of what happens. A modern type of war, the second world war anyway, was a bit disastrous for civilians, no doubt about it. If you have another war it’ll be rather a different kettle of fish, again just whole civilians war, be engulfed. But I don’t know what would happen, have fair idea what will happen, but just hope it never will.
DH: Absolutely. Right. Can I say thank you very much.
JT: Oh you’re most welcome.
DH: It’s been fascinating to listen to, and very informative.
JT: As I say, there are stories in the book you might want to include.
DH: Yes, yeah. Your book’s fascinating.
JT: Hmm. Anyway, it was very nice to see you.
JT: Is it still recording?
DW: I shall turn this off then, okay.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Percival Trotman
Creator
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Dawn Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-06-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATrotmanPJ180604
Format
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01:21:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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Applying for RAF Bomber Command in May 1940, Percival Trotman was called up in September 1940, training as a pilot at RAF Towyn in Aberystwyth. Being present at Coventry when the town was bombed, he recalls deciding that the Germans deserved to have the same done to them and pushed to do well in his training. Completing his advanced training at RAF South Cerney, Percival was rated above average and was sent to RAF Cranwell to train as a flight instructor, without seeing active service. He gives some examples of training, including low flying over hedges and almost crashing into a caravan, which eventually led to him being moved to an operational training unit where he trained to fly Wellingtons. Whilst completing his training, Percival was drawn into the ‘thousand bomber raid’, without completing his training. Posted to RAF Binbrook by mistake, Percival took part in operations over France and minelaying. Explaining a close call on a return from am operation on Hamburg, Percival gives insight into how he dealt with a crew member's loss during a crash landing. He explains that he felt fear during operations, but kept it hidden so that his crew remained strong. Completing 30 operations in total, he was eventually transferred to the Pathfinders, earning the Distinguished Flying Medal and flying Mosquitoes. Percival recollects his crew members fondly, including his Pathfinders navigator ‘Tubby’. Percival outlines what the aftermath of a crash contained, including making it back to Great Britain, giving insights into another crash he had on the return from an operation.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Cheshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Coventry
England--London
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
France
France--Lorient
France--Saint-Nazaire
Wales--Ceredigion
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940-05
1940-09
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
150 Squadron
692 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
final resting place
Flying Training School
forced landing
Initial Training Wing
military ethos
mine laying
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Cranwell
RAF Graveley
RAF Peplow
RAF Pershore
RAF Shawbury
RAF South Cerney
RAF Tilstock
RAF Torquay
RAF Towyn
recruitment
training
Wellington
Whitley
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5e82adc2824b4bab6c98c732b381cc02
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1187/11760/AWatsonJR180202.1.mp3
f81235f23e0bc02c8249edb6f60394e4
Dublin Core
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Title
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Watson, John Robert
J R Watson
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with warrant Officer John 'Jack' Watson DFM (b. 1923 Royal Air Force) his log book and photographs. He flew three turs of operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 156 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Watson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Watson, JR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 2nd of February 2018 and we’re in Eastbourne talking with John Watson, Jack Watson DFM about his times in the RAF and before and after. So, Jack what are your earliest recollections of life?
JW: It’s quite a strange one really. I had to go to Great Ormond Street when I was about three years old to have my tonsils out. And my father was in bus work all his life. He, he was in the First World War driving an ambulance. The [pause] I forget the name of the unit now but I’ve got a picture of him somewhere with his, standing by his ambulance. And he was at this time driving for a company called Fairways. They used to drive down to Worthing from London daily. And he came to collect me and my mum in his coach and I can remember the cab was just half the, the bonnet was just outside. He sat me on the bonnet, put his arm around me and drove off [laughs] And in the back of the coach was a little pedal car he’d bought for me. And the other recollection, I can remember that quite plainly the other recollection we were living in Acton although I was born in Putney at my grandmother’s house. All the family were born there except my dad but I can remember the R101. I was out in the street in Brouncker Road in Acton.
CB: The airship.
JW: And watched the R101 go over. And I can still marvel at the size of it because it wasn’t all that high and of course it went on to crash in France didn’t it?
CB: It did. Yeah.
JW: And, but then my father was the manager, manager of a coach company running coaches from High Wycombe to Oxford Circus to High Wycombe and Guildford. And when Mandelson’s grandfather Morrison decided he would nationalise because London was full of one man buses he’d nationalise it all. In those days it was a bit cut throat but they did. They put a coach to Guildford in front of my father’s coach. One behind it. And of course customer loyalty only goes so far. They see a coach comes along. And of course they ran him off the road. But they gave my father a job as a chief inspector at Dorking. We moved down there for two years. And after that we went to, he moved, took him to a bigger garage at Guildford which is where he stayed through the war. And then while we was, it was I’d just left school and I heard about the Air Defence of Great Britain Corps which was the forerunner of the ATC and they were at Brooklands Aerodrome. And I told my father that I wanted to join it and there was, I think that he could see the fact that the war was coming on. I think the war had just started actually. Yeah. And he’d seen what went on in the war, he didn’t want his son — we had arguments galore. Eventually he relented and I used to cycle over to Brooklands, about a twelve mile run on a Sunday morning and joined the ATC , the Air Defence of Great Britain Corps. And it was very much, me a working class boy in amongst, there were a lot of well-educated young men there and I must admit I felt a little bit out of place. But anyhow I stuck it out. But then of course they formed the ATC and I was able to transfer to Guildford. And I wanted to join the Air Force badly. I wanted to fly. I mean I’ve, as I said, I wanted to do my bit and save the world but that’s a lot of nonsense. I [laughs] I wanted to fly. And I, again because I was serving an apprenticeship my father, ‘No. You’re not going to join the Air Force. You’re not going to.’ I kept nagging nagging nagging. In the finish he said, ‘If Mr Biddle,’ who was the one of three brothers who owned the printing company where I was apprenticed, ‘If he says you can break your apprenticeship I’ll agree.’ ‘Fine.’ So immediately I went and saw Mr Biddle. I said, ‘Look, my father has given me permission to break my apprenticeship but I need your authority as well.’ Well, of course I forgot that dad being in charge of transport when his buses were late he used to phone around to the different companies so that the men didn’t lose money and they’d known each for some time. Of course it came that neither of them would give me permission [laughs] So the following Saturday at the top of Guildford High Street was an RAF Recruiting Office. I walked in there and joined up and then went back and said to dad, ‘I’ve joined the Air Force.’ I think if they’d have realised it they could have but I don’t think they, I presented them with a fait accompli. Anyhow, I then got about a week later to go to Abingdon for an interview. And I walked into this office and there was a whole range of high ranking Air Force officers sitting around and in front of them was a huge table with a map on it. They asked me very, and funnily enough they said, ‘Why do you want to? Why do you want to join in the Air Force?’ I said, ‘Well, firstly I want to fly and the other thing is I want to get my own back because in Guildford although it wasn’t badly bombed there was one night a bomber went over. A German bomber and just, I think there was a searchlight at Stag Hill by the Cathedral. He got caught in that and he just dropped his bombs. They came down and one of them hit the house next door. In a terrace. One fell opposite. And I was sleeping in that room downstairs but it was the curtains had been pulled across. It was rather like a bit of a bay and the curtains were back a bit but the bomb going off of course blew all the glass and shattered it and shredded the curtains which saved me. So anyhow I, they started asking questions and then one of them said, ‘Can you find Turkey on that map?’ Well, you know it’s a big place Turkey, isn’t it? And there’s a piece of Turkey below the Dardanelles. That’s the only bit I could find. I suppose it was nerves really. And anyhow, he said, ‘Any more?’ I said, ‘No.’ Anyhow, they said, ‘We think you’ll be better off as ground crew.’ So I went out and I thought, right. Ground crew. Wireless operator. I can transfer straight to air crew. So I went in and I sat in front of this corporal and he asked me some questions. He said, ‘Do you know the Morse Code?’ I said, ‘Oh yeah.’ But the rotten so and so bent down and picked up a Morse Code key and said, ‘Right. Take this down.’ [laughs] And of course the only thing I knew about Morse Code was how to spell it. So he said, ‘I think we’ll put you in as a flight mechanic.’ So which is what I went in to and I was called up in September or August. August of ’42. Went to Blackpool. Oh, Penarth first and although you considered yourself fit they gave us your kit you never had the strength to lift it. You dragged it back to your billet, got changed, put your kit into a little suitcase with your name and address on. Sent it off home. And then we started doing the square bashing in Blackpool. Well, the first morning we all lined up and we started a run to go to from Blackpool north to Bispham. Five mile run. I met them half way back. And I thought this is ridiculous. So the next morning as we used to start off there were some steps up to some public toilets. So the next morning I’d got a penny in my hand. And they all ran and I ran up because I’d sussed this out. You stood on the lavatory seat and looked through the little window and you could see them coming back. As they came back I came down joined then on the back and then I was fit enough to do all the exercises that they were going through. And this, I got away with this morning after morning and, but I just could not see the point. I’ve never been a runner or a sportsman of any kind and I certainly wasn’t at that stage. But the little Irishman sergeant we had in charge of our squad had got his stripe, his third stripe on the strength of the way he’d turned out his previous squad. So he had something to prove and he was a bit of a martinet. But when it was raining, I don’t know whether you know Blackpool.
CB: Yeah.
JW: But there’s the three promenades. He used to take us on to one of them and he’d lecture us on women. Quite an interesting character. But he didn’t ask us to do anything he wouldn’t do himself. When we went on the, so it was Stanley Park in Blackpool on the assault courses we were all in PT kit. He was in full uniform and he went with us and he ran the whole way there and back. I forget his name now but he was a real character. We went from there. When we left there we were put on a train. We had to go to Manchester and change. We weren’t allowed to take the kit bag and all the back pack off and we were, but when we changed there we then got on another train which took us to Wendover because we were going to Halton. And when they marched us from Wendover up to the camp with a kit bag on the back it was nothing. We were that, it really got us fit. And while we were there the, there was a chap there he’d been a drummer in a band and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’ve found a set of drums,’ he said ‘We can form a drum corps to march the people down to the workshops and back.’ So he said, ‘You’re excused other duties,’ like Home Guard type duties. So that was it. It was going to be a get out of that. We wouldn’t have to go out at night. So we joined up and we had a practice room in one of the cook houses. And of course you gave a load of seventeen eighteen year olds a set of drums it, it was half an hour before he could make himself heard [laughs] And anyhow, he did. He did make us into a reasonable drum, we used to play these drum tunes. March them down to the workshops. March them back at lunchtime. Of course the advantage was you were at the lead so you were the first one in the cookhouse for your meal. And we used to go to Battle of Britain weeks where they used to go around the towns with an RAF, an RAF band. We weren’t allowed to play with the band. He used to the drumming with the band but we used to do, when they had a break we’d do our bit for the raising money for Spitfires. And while I was on the course for the fitter, for the air training mechanics course suddenly a notice went up on the board they were looking for flight engineers because obviously they were trying to take people off the squadron. They didn’t want to take too many because they were depleting their ground staff but equally the ground crews were watching what was coming back and thought well I don’t want any of that. So they were, except they would lower the standards like they did it didn’t affect me in that way and I applied. Went to Euston. And the night before we went to Euston a crowd of us went out and we went to see Lou Preager at the Hammersmith Palais and we got knocking back beers and stuff. The next morning we go for a young, there was a young flight lieutenant and I stripped off, I got on the scales he said, ‘Get back on them scales.’ I was only nine stone. Then we come to the dreaded holding the mercury up and after, after the night before I was [pause] and suddenly I was halfway through. I suddenly, and he looked around whether by accident or not I don’t know so I was able to take another breath and hold it up again and ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘You’ve passed.’ And I had to go back on the fitter’s course and passed all that before going down to St Athan for the flight engineer’s course and passed that with, with I think about seventy five percent. It was quite a, I was quite pleased with that result. And then we went up to Lindholme. Oh the first thing was the, when we finished our course for a week they sent us up to Ringway. Ringway. Where they were building the Lancs. To show us what was going on. And it was incredible. They took us all to Pointon. We all got off these coaches and we were met by all these girls. We all paired off and I met a fair headed one. I’ll never forget her name. Yvonne. She taught me more in that week about the facts of life and I thought well this is better than sliced bread [laughs] And so yeah the obvious happened. And I should have kept in touch. Her father was a manager of a printing company in Manchester. But I don’t know whether it was we didn’t think it was a proposition for somebody going into aircrew to get involved in a serious relationship. But anyhow we left there and we were sent back to St Athan. Then we, from there a couple of days later we went up to Lindholme and got all our flying kit and everything and then because I was going down to Faldingworth which was south there was only me and another chap going south. The rest, all the other people. So we had to go to Faldingworth with all the kit and then make our way from there back which was a nightmare. But anyhow we had a week’s leave and got back to Faldingworth and all shoved in a big hangar because my crew had been a Wellington crew. They hadn’t been on ops at all but of course they needed a mid-upper gunner and a flight engineer. I walked in and I was just wandering aimlessly about. I hadn’t got a clue what I was looking for and this wireless operator come up and he said to me, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We’re looking for a flight engineer,’ He said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said ‘John.’ ‘Right, Jack.’ And I became Jack. All the Air Force life and all my working life. And it’s only the family that call me John. And anyhow I was introduced to the crew. And it was, it was quite a strange thing really because we all took to each other straight away. The pilot was, he was a month, he was only nineteen anyway. I mean, we was all only nineteen. He was a month younger than me. And the first thing, we got to Faldingworth was two days later he said to me, ‘We’re going up on fighter affil, on familiarisation tomorrow. Only me and you.’ So we picked up the screened pilot and walked out to the aircraft [pause] and I looked and I said, ‘I’m trained on Lancasters. This is a Halifax.’ I said, ‘Not only don’t I know anything about this it’s the first time I’ve seen one.’ I said, ‘Where’s the screened, the screened engineer?’ ‘Oh, we haven’t got one. You’ll be alright. You’ll be ok. Just the three of us.’ Well, we took off and we were flying at about four thousand feet and he said, he called me up, ‘Engineer, I want you to change the fuel tanks,’ he said, ‘Listen carefully.’ I said, ‘Well, first of all where are they? The controls.’ ‘Under one of the rest beds in the fuselage.’ Because the Lancaster and the Halifax are two totally different aircraft. So he said, ‘Under the rest bed,’ he said, ‘There’s two levers each side,’ he said, ‘Now, listen carefully. Turn off the lever on number one on the port side. Turn off the number one on the starboard side. Turn on the number two on the port side. Turn on the number two on the starboard side.’ Well, something didn’t sound right there. But anyhow I thought well I’d better follow what he says. I don’t know how the system works. So I turned off the number one. By the time I’d got across to the other side the aircraft did a nose dive. I carried on and set the tanks and then it picked it up. Well, of course he told me he should have turned off number one turned on number two. He told me the wrong way. He apologised very profusely. I said, I said, ‘Apology would have been a bit late wouldn’t it if we’d been two thousand feet lower?’ And he couldn’t, he couldn’t have been more contrite. And as I say I cut the fuel but it soon picked up. Anyhow, from then on I never ever had a screened engineer go with me. I was always on, but when we landed I went to stores and got the manual for the Halifax. And I spent the whole, I never even go for any meal. I spent all that afternoon, all night going through that manual. The next morning when we went out to the Halifax again I knew what I wanted to know about it. But it was a stupid thing he did. And I should have had a screened engineer with me. Especially being a, a —
CB: A complete rookie.
JW: Complete. Yeah. I mean to, I can’t imagine what I was thinking to even agree to go. Because in the flight of the Lancaster you sit alongside the pilot. In a Halifax you sit with your back to the pilot. So the whole thing was completely different. But anyhow we got away with it. My guardian angel was sitting on my shoulder. But we, we went from there to, we got a posting to 12 Squadron at Wickenby. And it’s only about five miles so it was a crew bus to go, and as we drove in two Lancs were on the side of the perimeter track. One screwed into the back of the other. As they were taxiing around apparently one stopped, one didn’t. But luckily nobody got hurt from it. And then they took us to our billet. And I can see it now. Walked in the billet and it was as the crew had left. The beds were unmade. Sheets just drawn. And I looked over to the bed that I’d picked and it was the pilot’s name. Sergeant Twitching. And years later a chap, you’ve heard of Currie, the pilot who wrote one of the books, he phoned me up because I’d phoned him up about something else previous and he said, ‘Jack,’ he said, ‘I’ve been asked to write something about strange happenings to people who were flying.’ And I told him how I’d joined and I said to him, I said the, I never forgot the name of that man, Sergeant Twitching. He said, ‘What an unfortunate name for a bomber boy.’ And when I went years after the war, I’m digressing a bit I went to Lincoln Cathedral and saw the volume and I asked them if they could open that book at this man’s name. I said I felt as though I needed to make some sort of tribute to him. And they were all killed. I think it was either Leipzig or Stuttgart. One of those. And anyhow we started off. Went on our first op and when we were, you were convinced that going from what the instructor’s told you that you were never going to make your first op. And it was at Brunswick on the 17th of January ’44. And we took off and as we took off nothing happened. We got our, we were going past I think Hanover and I looked down and the whole of the cloud, it was all cloud but it was all lit up with the searchlights shining through and I called up and I said, ‘Bill there’s a Lanc down on the right hand, on the starboard side there,’ I said, ‘He’s about three thousand feet below us.’ ‘Oh, that’s good,’ He said, ‘They’ll be watching him and they won’t see us.’ And I thought, cor what a man. What a pilot. You know, we’re alright here. We went to Brunswick. Got back without any problems at all. And we did, it was the next thing was on the second trip was to Berlin. An eight and a half hour trip. We called up at Wickenby on the way back when we was coming for to permission to land and they said yeah ok. We were in the circuit and there was low cloud. As we broke cloud, it’s unbelievable to think they talk about near misses, Another Lanc alongside of us on our port side broke cloud at the same time with about six feet between the wing tips. And our pilot, we went that way, he went that way. So, you know. Anyhow, we carried on and landed. And Bill called out, and he said, oh. ‘Clear of runway.’ And there was a few minutes silence and then a voice said, ‘Where the bloody hell are you?’ And we had landed at Ludford Magna.
CB: Oh right.
JW: Which was an adjoining. In that sort of taking that evasive action thinking we were joining the circuit again we weren’t. Anyhow, they kept us for about four hours then before the let us fly back to, to Wickenby. And the next thing was that we did a trip to Stuttgart. And we had the most fantastic mid-upper gunner and he didn’t have a brain he had a computer. We were going in to, on the bombing run and he suddenly said , ‘Dive port, Go.’ Bill just went. And as we did I watched tracer go over the top of the aircraft. And we got, we got the, it dipped, it broke away and didn’t make another attack. We got back ok and our wireless operator said, ‘We owe our lives to Appy and Bill.’ And we, because we were so close a crew we didn’t have engineer and pilot it was Bill and Appy and Ollie. I was Watty. That’s how. But it worked for us because we all knew each other’s, as soon as we spoke we knew who it was talking. And we got back and the next thing we had was a raid, we were walking down to briefing and I was on my own and there was a spattering of [pause] this was in February, there was a spattering of snow on the ground. I was walking down to the briefing room on my own funnily enough. I don’t know why but I just, going through some trees and I suddenly stopped in my tracks. And it was the most strange feeling. I knew that if we didn’t leave Wickenby we wouldn’t survive. It was the most strange feeling. We went in and again the target was Stuttgart. And we got there and back without any problems. But two mornings later we were called into the flight commanders office and he’d got us all around standing in a row in front of him. I can see him now. He said, ‘You’ve got two options,’ he said, ‘You’re going to either volunteer for the Pathfinder force or we’ll send you.’ [laughs] Now, having experienced that strange feeling two nights previously that was the answer for me. The two navigators weren’t, the bomb aimer and the navigator weren’t all that keen but they decided to go along with it and we didn’t fly any more ops from there. We were sent down to Warboys for the Pathfinder Training Unit. And it was going to be straight, the bomb aimer was going to become the second navigator. The flight engineer was going to be the bomb aimer and also I had to learn some navigation. So we did all these necessary courses. About nine days I think we were there. Nine, ten days something like that. And we went in to see the navigation officer and he said to me, ‘Ask me some questions.’ I had to learn to take an astro shot with a sextant. I did that. And he said to me, ‘What’s the difference between a planet and a star?’ As, yeah a planet and a star. And I thought I don’t know. All I could think, going through my mind was, “Twinkle twinkle little star,” and I thought what an idiot. And I said to him, and I thought this is going to get [pause] I said, ‘A star twinkles.’ He said, ‘That’s correct. A planet is a steady light.’ And I thought it was [laughs] and I didn’t let him know that it was the nursery rhyme that got me out of trouble but it did. Anyhow, when was, we’d done all the courses we had to do the practice bombing with the triangle and the fuel and and you had to get to within about a yard of that. We did. But of course at two thousand feet having got it and hit it we then, this is, we was doing a bit of low level flying we came across a field and there was a load of sheep. Well they nearly beat us. As the aircraft suddenly came, all these sheep suddenly [unclear] from shock. But one of the instructions when, when they said after we’d finished when I was sitting chatting to one of them and he said what squadron are you going to?’ I said, ‘156.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The rebel squadron.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They’ll fly ‘til the cows come home but,’ he said, ‘Lectures or anything like that they can never get them in to them.’ He said, ‘As soon as there’s a stand down they’re off. And it was like that. It was like that. It was. They were all really, years later a friend of mine, I was sitting chatting to him he was, he was the same as the rear gunner. He flew with about ten different crews. One of the bravest men I knew as a rear gunner and I said to him, ‘How did you manage to do all that with all those different — ?’ He said, ‘All the crews on 156 were good.’ And they were. And the number of them who got killed because they didn’t finish when they could have done. Just went on like we did. You know. And but anyhow [pause] he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘They can’t seem to do anything [unclear],’ he said, ‘But they’ll fly night and day,’ he said, ‘All week.’ But anyhow at that point they, because they’d transferred 156 from Warboys to Upwood, and Upwood which was to be a, in to a Warboys and we got to Warboys just as they changed. But we did quite a few. We never did any more Berlin trips. The first one we did from Upwood was to Essen and the next one, our thirteenth trip and it was, it was only a little sometime later that I realised this, we were flying in M-Mother. Thirteenth. That was the alphabet. Our thirteenth trip. It was Nuremberg [pause] and we noticed we were giving off contrails so we decided to lose height until we found a height where it wasn’t affecting us. But a lot of crews just carried on. I mean it’s not surprising that so many of them got caught. Some probably didn’t have a chance to, there was another crew of course Tony Hiscock was the skipper and he was, he was talking to me. He said. ‘Yeah, we had those contrails. We just, when the rear gunner told me we was leaving them,’ he said, ‘We just changed height until we realised we were stopping.’ But we never saw anything on that trip other than other than other aircraft going down which our gunners were reporting to us. But it was — oh, hello love. This is my daughter Suzanne.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Getting out of them.
JW: Yeah. And we, we had some [pause] a couple of trips where we were, on one trip we were coned.
CB: With searchlights.
JW: Searchlights. And I was actually on the bombing run. I was, ‘Left. Left. Steady.’ And suddenly the lights caught us. But Bill never hesitated. We were at eighteen thousand feet and he just went down in a dive and of course I shot up into the front turret. I was fixed. I couldn’t move with the gravity. He pulled out at six thousand feet and I come crashing down over the bombsight again. And ten minutes but he got us out of us. He got us out of the, out of the, those searchlights. And we then finished up,. We bombed. We went around again and bombed at twelve thousand feet. But it was another one we did was to Lens, and this was the night when the flying bombs were coming over. The V-1s. We could see all these lights coming below us and hadn’t a clue what they were but it was not ‘til we got back the next day but it was, it was in France. But going down we were going down at, going through at seven thousand feet. We came on the target so quick.
[recording paused]
CB: Right.
JW: As we were going I was giving him the instructions. Suddenly —
CB: As the bomb aimer at that time.
JW: As the bomb aimer.
CB: Yeah.
JW: Suddenly realised that we got on the target before we realised it and I said to him, ‘Dummy run, Bill. Go around again.’ But it was, it was years later before I realised what had happened. Came back. Coming on to the target and I could see all these black shapes going past me in the corner of my eye. Anyhow, that time I got the target on the marker. The target markers. Dropped the bombs and when I looked I thought to myself [unclear] the operational record books, one of the sheets I’ve got and when I looked I realised he didn’t go around again he did a u-turn and we were flying into the bomber stream. And I thought strange. How did we do that? Then I looked. In that turn he lost two thousand feet. We bombed from five thousand feet. Everybody else was coming over at seven but how we flew through all that lot. All the bombs going. I don’t know. But [pause] I’m just trying to find it. As I say it was the number of times. Three times at least on the bomb aiming run I called dummy run.
CB: We’ll just stop again. Hang on.
[recording paused]
CB: You bombed at five thousand feet.
JW: Yeah.
CB: And everybody else did it at seven.
JW: Yeah.
CB: Which was what you were briefed to do.
JW: Yeah.
CB: So this is part of your lucky escape —
JW: It is. Yeah.
CB: Series, isn’t it? Extraordinary.
JW: But, as I say on at least three occasions on the German trips I called dummy run, and not once did I hear one murmur of dissent from any of the crew. You read reports from people, ‘Oh, get rid of it,’ you know. But none of our crew did that. We had complete faith and trust in each other. But, yeah on at least three occasions we did a, we did a dummy run to go around. On one occasion when we were at Wickenby and I think that this is when we came to be on Pathfinders, because Hamish Mahaddie used to go around picking crews and he must have looked at this particular order and it was this. On debriefing it said we were six minutes early so we put the flaps down and did dog legs to lose six minutes. And this was on Stuttgart. I mean [laughs] but it was, we were told to get there and our pilot he always said there was a lot of talk about some of the crews were throwing their bombs in and either banking and then so that they didn’t actually fly over the target. And I know that when that happened Bill said, ‘What the hell’s the point of going all that way without going over and doing it properly?’ But he was, he was a fantastic pilot. He was a fantastic. He was the only man I have ever known apart from people like Alex [pause] Grimshaw? What was his name? The test pilot at Ringway. He did —
CB: Oh, Henshaw.
JW: Henshaw.
CB: Yeah.
JW: Well, I think he did it. He did a rate four turn on a —
CB: On a Lancaster.
JW: On a Lancaster.
CB: Crikey.
JW: And he did it to come up, we were on fighter affiliation and we were being attacked by a Spitfire but instead of doing the normal corkscrew he did this rate four. We came up behind the Spitfire. And unbelievably —
CB: In the Lancaster.
JW: Unbelievably the Spitfire pilot complained and he called, our CO called Bill in and he said, ‘You’ve got to stick to the rules.’ And he had, I think he had a grin on his face as he was saying it. Bill said if that had been a Messerschmitt we could have shot it down. Yeah. But he, and it was the most I can see it now. You’re standing there and you are horizontal but you’re not falling. Yeah. But he was, he was, we loved him. And when, when I looked to see that I think that report as I say going around to Hamish Mahaddie I think that he read that and thought well we need crews who are going to be there on time and this is what, this is what we’ve been looking for.
CB: Yeah. Extraordinary experiences. Yes.
JW: The, but then of course when we got to, I did one spare bod trip. I got caught. I think it was the flight commander. Wing Commander Scott. He was a New Zealander. His engineer went sick and two SPs came down and saw me. Engineer. Right. I had to fly with him. It was to Stuttgart again. But on the run in did the bomb aiming, came out of the target and I looked at the inspections bit and the cookie had held up.
CB: Oh.
JW: So I said to him, ‘Skip, go around again. We’ve got the cookie.’ Well, our own pilot would have been natural enough just to go round but what he called me. He was questioning my sanity as well apart from insulting my mother and father but you didn’t take any notice of that. So I said, ‘I’ll go around and try and release it manually.’ And there used to be a little flap above the cookie that you could pull back. A little slide and release the bolt that held it. And I’d got a, made a little sort of little light there. I was just, I suddenly saw the bolt start to shudder and pulled my hand back just as this thing shot across. He pulled the toggle on the instrument panel and dropped the carrier, the lot. Didn’t look to see where we were. He just opened the bomb doors. And he started weaving as we took off and he was still weaving until we landed. Oh, he was complete nerves. And —
Other 1: Gosh.
JW: Yeah. Wing Commander Scott. He was posted shortly after that. But I made sure I didn’t do any more of those. There was one occasion when they, knew they, what they were looking for a flight engineer. So I went up in the loft and [laughs] ‘Flight Sergeant Watson here?’ ‘No. He’s gone out. He’s gone into Peterborough.’ ‘Oh alright.’ And I was up in the loft like this. I lifted it up just to listen [laughs] because we had arranged we weren’t flying. I was going out. But I wasn’t going to do another, and I’d already done halfway through my third tour so I was well away to saying no. But the other —
CB: Would you class him as a dangerous pilot then?
JW: Who?
CB: Because of his nerves.
JW: Well, I didn’t. I didn’t have any confidence in him. I wasn’t, I wasn’t frightened at all but I thought to myself, no. I didn’t like flying with a strange crew anyway. None of us did. But that’s what made me admire my friend in Southampton. He was, the number of times he went with strange crews. But we’d done that lot and I thought well half way through a third tour because we finished a second tour, we was all in the Red Lion in Ramsey, and we were all celebrating and Bill came in and it was, there were never enough seats and we were all sitting around on the floor with pints of beer. And he said, Bill said, ‘How about carrying on?’ ‘Yes.’ So the next morning he said, ‘Don’t forget,’ he said, ‘We’re going to carry on.’ ‘Oh alright.’ But we wouldn’t have let him flown with anybody else anyway. So that was the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator, myself and Bill. As I say the two navs packed up and we had a range of rear gunners after he’d done forty one trips. And we finished the third tour and he pulled the same stroke again. So we was in a [laughs] we was on, the last trip was the master bomber trip to [pause] Munster. And it was a day like this. Really beautiful sunshine and we were just lying round and we got, this is a twenty second trip with these two Canadian navigators and there was an anti-aircraft gun. Obviously you could tell who the master bomber gunner was because brilliant daylight. Not a cloud in the sky. And the shell went off alongside of us. And I said to Bill [unclear] we went down five hundred feet and they put a shell in the same place. So when he did that we went back up. And they put one where we were. And this went on. It was [laughs] it was ridiculous really. But anyhow we got away with it but when, when we were sort of circling around doing, Bill was directing the raid one of the navigators came out from behind the curtain. He took one look. We were surrounded by shell bursts. And he said, ‘Jeez, let’s get out of here.’ And Bill said, it was the only time I ever heard him raise his voice, ‘Get back inside.’ And he scuttled back in behind the curtain. I mean, navigators never came out and if you came out like that and you see. Because it is a bit of a shock seeing those shell bursts. The first daylight we did got to the target and you could have walked on the shell bursts there was that many. And I thought we can never fly through that. But we did. Got away with it.
CB: How many times did you actually get hit by flak?
JW: About four times I think. Five times. But none of us ever got a scratch.
CB: What sort of damage did the aircraft —
JW: Holes in the bomb, in the bomb bay doors and some in the fuselage, but not enough to [pause] There was one that we did get hit and I think it took a bit out of the engine. It was on the raid Trossy St Maximin when Bazalgette got his VC. It was on that raid. It was such a heavily defended target. It was a bomb bay, V-1 bomb dump and as we went in we dropped. I think we just dropped the bombs. There was suddenly this hell of a bang. A tremendous noise and we just went into a dive and I thought we’d been hit but anyhow, I looked. We had a clear blister on the nose of our Lancs. You could put you head in and I could look through and I could see that the, both engines, all four engines were still in sync so there was obviously nothing wrong with them. So I called up and said, ‘Engines are ok. I’ll check Bill.’ I went up and he was ok as it turned out but he’d just, when that and they knew they’d got the range he just went into a dive but that took a piece out the side of one of the engines. But the engines still worked.
Other 1: Extraordinary.
JW: We didn’t even know there was anything wrong with it. But that was, going back to the Nuremberg raid when we landed we landed at Marham and on the way back as we left the target I noticed one of the oil instruments wasn’t working. Now, that could mean you’ve lost power. Anyhow, the engine, I didn’t say anything because I kept a check on it and noticed that there was no, the engine was not giving any reports of any failures so it was obviously the instrument that was at fault. So when we landed the next morning when we were going to take off again and the number of Lancs at Marham was unbelievable. It was just everywhere and it was a grass drome as well, the [pause] I said to Bill, ‘There’s no point in reporting this fault because they’ll never get anybody to —’ I said, ‘I’ll go out and check the oil to make sure there’s no lost oil.’ Because sitting on the engine that’s been going for eight hours I was covered in oil when I got back. Sitting on the engine dipping the tank. And it was, there was no loss of oil so I said to Bill, ‘No. There’s no point. We can take, we’ll never get away if we report that.’ And we took off. Got back and reported it when we got back. But the other thing was we had to take up on the flight from Upwood, we were going up on a night flying test and we were asked to take up a senior RAF [pause] I forget what rank he was now. Quite a high rank. Anyhow, suddenly one the port inners started. The starboard inner started playing up and I couldn’t control the pitch of the propellers so I said to Bill, ‘We need to feather it.’ He said, ‘Ok.’ When we landed he said, ‘What’s wrong?’ Now, I can’t tell you the name now but it was one of three things it could have been inside the nose, the hub of the propeller and there was one main one and I said, and one thing that they taught you when you went on Pathfinders, you’ve got to think quick and you’ve got to act. You can’t dither. You make a decision. Right or wrong you make a decision. And that way. And I said to Bill, oh it’s the so and so. So when we landed chiefy come around. The sergeant in charge of the ground crew and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Why is the engine feathered, skip?’ Bill said, well because this [laughs] he named the part that was broken. And the chiefy looked at him in amazement and said, ‘With respect, sir,’ he said, ‘How do you know that?’ And I could have wanted the ground to open up. ‘Because my engineer told me.’ But luckily I was right. I got it right. And it was at [pause] we had to abort one. We got they gave us the trip because we got within fifty miles of the target. We had boost surge. We just could not cure it. And when we got back I said, ‘I think there’s something wrong with the camshaft.’ Ha ha ha — that was the laugh I got from the engineering officer. But they couldn’t find it either. So they sent the engine back to Derby and they found a cracked valve which was obviously after the cam shaft.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo so you can have a bit of your coffee.
JW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: On the Munster trip. Yeah.
JW: Yeah. We got —
CB: Yeah.
JW: Back from there. Landed. And we were walking back to debriefing and one of the rear gunners saw another crew came running up. He said, A signal’s come through to say that Cleland’s crew are to be taken off operations immediately and not allowed to fly on any more ops.’ We never knew why. Because we didn’t have one abortive trip. We’d always bombed the target. Everything. And yet the only thing I could think was that we’d been flying for fifteen months without any break.
CB: That’s extraordinary.
JW: And I think they thought that we were [pause] and I’ve often thought that they saved our lives. The next trip could have been.
Other 1: Easily.
JW: The one that we would have — [pause]
CB: How did you feel about that?
JW: Well, we were choked because we knew they were going to split the crew up. But we thought we might be able to carry on as a crew for a little while but within a week they posted us all off. They sent me as an instructor to a Wellington OTU. A flight engineer. They don’t fly flight engineers on Wellingtons. And that was really a case of I was there for a little while. Then they decided to post me to a Maintenance Unit. 56 MU. Except it should have been 58 MU. 58 MU was at Coventry. About twenty miles away. 56 MU was at Inverness. So I went all the way up to Inverness and I had an aircrew sergeant with me. He’d never done any ops because the war had finished as he finished training. He was going with me and he lived in Edinburgh and so he said, ‘Right. We can go to Edinburgh.’ We had three days in Edinburgh where he lived. Went off up to Inverness and we got out from the station and I can see it now. As we went through Perth and that area. Beautiful scenery because by this, it was an overnight trip. Anyhow, we found, couldn’t find what we were looking for. We couldn’t find the unit at all. We suddenly spotted an airman and I said to him, called him over and I said, ‘Tell me where — ’ ‘Oh yeah,’ he said, ‘It’s in a garage down here.’ Which is what it was. A garage. And he said, and he said to me, ‘Watch the station warrant officer,’ he said, ‘He’s a bit of a martinet. He’ll find something for you to do.’ Anyway, we had to report to him so he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We’re closing down.’ He said, ‘I don’t know why they sent you here.’ Somebody had misread [laughs] Anyhow, he said, well he said, ‘I’ll put you in charge of the police for a week.’ Well, they had about a half dozen coppers there. RAF police. And I walked in. I said to them, ‘What are you all doing here?’ Well, they said ‘There’s nothing to do.’ So I said, ‘Right, you three have three days off. You three cover the whole lot. Three days later you go on three days leave.’ They thought I was the best thing since sliced bread [laughs] But we got back from there and as I say I got to this other MU and it was at [pause] on the mainline.
CB: Near Coventry was it?
JW: No. This was, it started with an N. Not Northampton. Anyhow, I called up. Phoned up the unit and said, ‘Is there any transport to, out to unit?’ She said, ‘Where are you?’ I said, ‘On the station.’ She said, ‘On the up or down line?’ She said, ‘Well come out,’ she wouldn’t have known that which part.’ She said, ‘Look to your left. Can you see a black building about four hundred yards?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ She said, ‘That’s us.’ And it was where they made the lawnmowers. They made, well it wasn’t making them then but as we used to have to go in private billets as we were going down to them their lot was coming away and it was just a track. But all on bikes of course. But yeah that was quite a, and what I had to do there it was the Queen Mary’s there. The long low loaders. And I had to work out the next week how many were going to be off and with what fault. And I thought bloody silly. How the hell can anybody work that out? But it quite surprising. It worked. The system they’d got. So that so many would be off with flat tyres. So many would be off with this. And I had all these sheets that I had to fill in with all the, one for each of the loader. A lot of them were a way out in different places on locations. But then from there they sent me to Skellingthorpe and there it was, it was ridiculous. It was as though they’d forgotten you. In fact, you were just milling around. I did take over the, they couldn’t find anybody to take the sergeant’s mess over and I knew that you can’t run a pub which was what it was and lose money. And I discovered that they were getting five pounds to go to the NAAFI at Waddington to stock up from the [pause] So I said to the, saw the officer in charge of the mess and I said to him, ‘Can I have twenty pounds?’ ‘Twenty pound. What do you want twenty pound for?’ I said, ‘Well, people want to buy toothpaste.’ I said, ‘There’s none of that in there or domestic things.’ So got in the van, went over to Waddington and I spent this money and I thought the ration was Players cigarettes and I thought no. They’re going to be Churchills. So I bought a load of Churchill fags. When I got back I said to them, I said, ‘Sorry lads. The ration’s Churchill fags but I have managed to buy some Players. But I had to pay over the odds for them.’ [laughs] I made a fortune. I came home. After a week I came home. I had managed to pay somebody to look after the mess bar for me, and I came home with a suitcase with a little attache̕ case with two bottles of whisky and two bottles of rum in it and, oh yeah I made quite a bit out of that. In fact one night one of the ground staff, he’d been in the Air Force years and years. Before the war. He came in. He’d been in to Lincoln and he was, well he’d had quite a skinful. And he coolly asked for a pint and he held it up. He said, ‘That’s off. That’s cloudy.’ So I said, ‘Oh, ok sir. I’ll get you another one out of a different barrel.’ ‘Ah that’s better.’ So when the, the officer in charge of the mess came in the next morning I said to him, it was the, he was a warrant officer ground staff and I said to him, ‘Warrant officer,’ so and so, ‘He’s complained and said that barrel’s off.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We can’t have that, he said. We’ll write it off.’ But it was half full. I think there was about nine gallons in it. And the next night I knew there was nothing wrong with it. The same warrant officer came in. He was sober this time. Poured him a pint from the same one. Now, that’s lovely,’ he said, ‘That’s great.’ So I had nine gallons and I had three days of my demob leave on that barrel with some of the mates I’d met. Oh dear. Yes. It was, it was quite a, but because of the way it went I decided to come home on leave. I was milling around. I went and saw my governor and I said to him, ‘Can I come back to work?’ So, ‘Oh yeah,’ he said, ‘You can come back.’ So I went back to work. And got paid for it. Not a lot but it was because it was only apprentice’s wage and, but about a fortnight one of my mates phoned up and he said, ‘Come back quick he said. They’re sending everybody home.’ So I went back, got demobbed to come home. But I had a couple of, a couple of near squeaks with the CO there. But the mess was just a hut and the bar was a cabinet which stood about that high. About that wide. And 12 o’clock at night I’m in there with a couple of other sergeants and we got bass sitting on our knees and the orderly officer walked in. ‘I said, ‘Do you want a drink, sir.’ Silly thing to say wasn’t it? I was under open arrest and in front of the CO the next morning. But I went round and managed to say, ‘You saw the bar was locked, the cupboard was all locked up, didn’t you?’ They said, ‘Yeah.’ Well, because it was all locked up I got away with it. But another time I went home on I used to go on the pay parade on Thursday, special pay parade and go home. And I used to catch the quarter past ten from Lincoln because pay parade was about, no it was a bit later than that. The pay parade was at 9 o’clock. I had time to get paid because it was only a short pay parade, walk into Lincoln and get the train down to Kings Cross and then across to Waterloo and home. Now, I did this this particular week and then on this particular Thursday I’d just got in and a telegram arrived at the door. “Report back to base camp immediately.” I thought that’s funny. So I phoned up one of my mates there and I said, ‘What’s happening?’ ‘Oh, you’re in dead trouble. You were the witnessing officer at pay parade.’ He said, ‘Half the camp stayed for food that they weren’t prepared for. The other half went home and left the pay, the witnessing the officer with the money with all that money he didn’t know what to do with.’ Anyhow, I got back. I went round and I reported, saw the RTO at Guildford station. Reported to him and told him that I was allowed to go back and I’d, I said, ‘I’ve only just got home.’ This was the Friday of course. The day after. And got —
[doorbell and knocking]
[recording paused]
CB: We’re talking about the pay parade. The fact you’d gone home.
JW: Yeah. I got back. I got back on Friday night. Reported to the orderly officer and was put under open arrest. The next morning we went in to see the CO and he said, ‘You went home on Thursday, Watson.’ And he was a wing commander ground staff. Been in the Air Force about forty years. I said, ‘No sir,’ I said, ‘I went home on Friday morning.’ ‘Why did you go on the pay parade on Thursday then?’ I said, ‘Well, I knew that I wanted to get away on Friday, sir.’ He said, ‘But didn’t you read the DROs?’ Well, I knew that it was a crime not to read them but looking through the King’s Rules and Regulations the night before I discovered that it’s not a crime if you read them and forget them. So I said, ‘I did read them, sir.’ I said, ‘And it went right out of my mind.’ I said, ‘I just forgot it completely.’ And of course he went through and he said, ‘Watson, I know you went home on Thursday.’ ‘No. Sir.’ I said, ‘I left here and,’ I told him the times. ‘I caught the train down to — ’ and because I was in a billet which was just on the edge of camp, had my own room there nobody could see me leave. And I said, ‘I caught that train just after ten. I got to Guildford,’ I said, ‘And the telegram arrived as I got home,’ I said, ‘I turned straight around and came back,’ I said. ‘In fact, I reported to the — ’ Anyhow, we went on and he said, asked me another. In the finish he said, ‘Right. Watson, you stay here. Everybody else go out.’ And he said to me, ‘Watson, I know you’re lying.’ He said, ‘I know you went home on Thursday but,’ he said, ‘I can’t prove it.’ He said, ‘But you’re not going to get away with it.’ He said, ‘You’re going to do three weeks of orderly officer.’ He said, ‘If you go out of camp I will know.’ And I knew he would do as well. I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry sir but,’ I said, ‘You’re wrong. I did go home on Friday.’ [laughs] But it was complete bluff. If he’d have said to me, ‘Swear on the bible,’ I don’t know what I would have done. But, yeah. I did discover that, you know. You can read. If you can’t, if you don’t read them it’s a crime. But read —
Other 1: And forget.
JW: And forget. You can’t, you know the loss of memory, it’s [laughs] but, and I got away with it. But he never held it against me because he gave me quite a good report when I left. He signed my release book. The next —
CB: But you did have to do the orderly officer.
JW: I did, yeah. Religiously did and the funny, it was quite funny really because I went in the mess one night and they’d just had a delivery come in. I said, ‘You got any Guinness?’ They said, ‘Yeah. We got a crate in today.’ ‘Right,’ I said, ‘I’ll buy the lot.’ ‘You can’t do that.’ I said, ‘Yes I can.’ And of course as a warrant officer and he’s a sergeant he’s not going to argue is he? I bought the lot. And then a chap came in. He played football for one of the Division One teams. Blackburn Rovers was it? And he sat down. I said to him, ‘Do you want a Guinness?’ ‘Oh yes please.’ So we sat there and but he was as wide a boys as me. He had got hold of you know the Lindholme dinghies that they used to drop the crew in? They had, they had the big main dinghy and then either side you had four flotation units. Two that side. They used to drop it so that it would spread and drift down to the crews that were ditched. He’d got hold of one of these and we sold it off. We even had the dinghy. I don’t know where he got it from but he got the dinghy. But our nerve failed us when we tried to get rid of that because we didn’t realise that all the surplus was going to be sold off after the war otherwise we’d have sold that and all. But —
CB: Who were the people who wanted to buy these things?
JW: All people in the camp.
CB: Oh right.
JW: Yeah. Other sergeants and other aircrew. And there I finished up there with twenty three German prisoners of war under my charge.
CB: On the airfield.
JW: Yeah. And they were quite clever. They used to make light bulbs and put ships and, and cliffs and lights inside the bulb. I don’t know how they did it. Built it up with the cliffs and the lighthouses in there and a little ship. Fantastic. And one of them made it, I bought it off him. It was a crocodile and in front was a little bird. And as you pulled it along the crocodile opens up and came like that and as it did the bird shot forward. I should have had enough sense to realise it was a money maker. I bought it for one of my friend’s little kiddies.
Other 1: Dear.
CB: What was their role? What did they do as prisoners?
JW: Cleaning and doing odd jobs you know around the camp. The American. The, their sergeant in charge of them he’d been, spent time in America and he spoke, spoke like an American. And I shall never forget he said to me we were talking one day and he was quite an educated chap and he must have been about a year or so older than me and he said, ‘I can’t understand the swear words,’ He said, ‘You talk about using the F word. F table,’ he said, ‘You know. It’s ridiculous.’ And I said to him, ‘Yeah. I agree with you.’ You know. He was always saying about language. The way it’s used. But, but he was, he was quite educated and he spoke without any German accent at all, and he was a [pause] I know that one of them one night somebody had taken some stuff out of the mess. And I just warned them. I said, ‘I don’t know which one of you it is but you’re in dead trouble if it happens again.’ It didn’t happen again. They did, they learned their lesson. But no it’s, as I say when it came to getting demobbed I was so disillusioned with the discipline and everything else that, and I knew I’d got an apprenticeship when we were on the, at Faldingworth taxiing round. Because aircraft were going off the end Faldingworth was a mud bath. If an aircraft went off the edge it would go down in to the mud to its axles and it would take days to get it out. So what they did they were fining crews a half a crown each which was half a day’s pay. So as we were taxiing around on the perimeter track I’m watching the wheel. I suddenly looked up and we were coming up against, it was, it turned out to be the engineering officer. He’d parked on the perimeter track and gone into one of the huts. And of course by then I said to Bill, but you can’t stop a thirty ton aircraft and the outside prop and it was one of those Hillman Tilts with the framework and the canvas and the outside was going over. It went right through all the canvas and ripped it and I thought I hope no one is in there. There wasn’t fortunately but Bill was on, he was pulled up for it. And I said to him, I said, ‘Tell them I was the one that was at fault,’ I said, ‘You couldn’t see from your side anyway and he shouldn’t have been parked there.’ ‘No.’ he said, ‘I’m the skipper. It’s my fault.’ And he got a mild reprimand. But that was the sort of bloke he was, you know. And as I say but it was [pause] we would have, well we’d have done anything for him really. We certainly wouldn’t have let him fly with anybody else if it had meant we had to carry on flying. Which is the reason we carried on. And it was years that we couldn’t find him after the war. Years later we tried to find him. And then my Appy, the mid-upper gunner phoned me up one day and he said, ‘Jack,’ he said, ‘I’ve been told that Bill lives at a place called Hilmarton near Calne in Wiltshire. So I said, ‘Well, the next time I go down to see my sister I’ll go down that way. Well, Hilmarton is, it’s, it’s a funny little place. You go through and there’s just a little turning to the church. I didn’t realise we go down that turning. There’s a school and then houses, part of the village. I went into the pub and I said, ‘Do you know anybody called Cleland?’ I said, ‘He was, he was with BOAC.’ ‘No.’ Turns out, Bill said, ‘I don’t know how they didn’t know that,’ he said, because Frances, his daughter used to go and help out in the bar.’ Anyhow, I went into the little garage on the main road and they didn’t know. But they said, ‘I’ll tell you what, he said. In the little bungalow next door but one there’s a chap there. He knows everybody in the village,’ he said, ‘He can probably tell you.’ Knocked on his door. ‘Oh yeah,’ he said, ‘He lives just around the back here. The other side of the church.’ So we drove around and I knocked on the door and Bill’s wife answered and I said, ‘Does Bill Cleland live here?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Is he in?’ She said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘I said will you tell him his flight engineer’s here.’ She went in. He was, he was going, supposed to be going out to a meeting. But he said we’ll go and have some lunch. He was so pleased. And of course from then on we kept in touch and, but he’d gone on to, he’d been seconded. In fact we were both demobbed the same day. I met up at Uxbridge. And he’d been seconded to BOAC. He’d actually, he got the King’s, yeah the Kings Commendation while he was with, or the Queen I can’t remember which one it was. He got it for his efforts in flying. Because I know he said to me, he said, ‘You just sit there. Press the button. It takes you to that point. Press another button it takes you to the next point. ‘He said. Oh that’s when he told me he met the wing commander that I flew with as he was. He met him in Canada. He said, ‘We were both going through,’ He said, ‘I know that he recognised me. ‘He said he was a, he wasn’t a nice bloke at all. When they were on the squadron when you looked to see in 156 there was a little number of people who were doing all the master bomber trips. Who had been the master bombers and the, we eventually got on to them but, and Bill went in one day and he said they were all pilots because you had a room each of pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, engineers, wireless operators, air gunners and he said to this wing commander, he said ‘Is it fair that Cocky’s doing all the master bombing?’ He said, ‘Can somebody else take a turn?’ And I think he thought Bill was saying he ought to do it. He wasn’t. He was saying look, you know, some of the others can do it because it’s amazing that the same few were doing them and a lot of them were on dodgy mostly French trips. And anyhow he said, ‘Everybody out.’ He said, ‘Bill, not you.’ He said, ‘I’ll decide who does the master bombers, and their deputies not you.’ and Bill, ‘I wasn’t suggesting that.’ ‘Shut up. Get out.’ He said, ‘I know he recognised me but,’ he said, ‘He completely ignored me.’ And he didn’t do any master bombers himself because it wasn’t a very nice job to do. You know. You’re putting yourself, sticking your head over the parapet. But if you were briefed to do it. We did a couple of deputies and I know one of them we was doing it was on Frankfurt, we was the deputy master bomber. Daylight raid. And our mid-upper gunner suddenly spotted an aircraft in trouble above us. He called up to our skipper and we went up alongside of him. It used to be, it turned out to be one of our own. And they’d been hit by flak in the bomb bay and the engineer’s leg was hanging off and [unclear] hole in the bottom of the fuselage. The mid-upper gunner got out of his turret and stepped straight through the hole. They found his parachute, handed it in when they landed back so obviously, he was, he was obviously killed. The mid-upper err the engineer had been a medical orderly in the previous so he was able to show them to put morphine into him to stop the pain. He got the CGM for that. And after the war another one of the, of our Association lives in Southampton his father was killed on 156 but he collided with another aircraft. And he went, this pilot was in a home alongside them and they came in, knew him. They went to see him and he mentioned that and he said, ‘Yeah. I remember that when he came up alongside of us.’ He mentioned the fact that our, we went up alongside of him. We were the master, deputy master bombers.
CB: Could you describe what, how the master bomber, what his role is and how it works please?
JW: He, he was very often either he or the deputy would do the marking. They’d decide that first. Usually the master bomber would do the, he had a special like we did. You had an eight man crew if you were a deputy or a master. He would then go and mark the target having originally, you would have supporters dropping flares to illuminate the target providing of course down to the weather. And then that would light up, the master bomber would then go in low and find out the target, mark the target and then he’d circle around and he’d watch the way the bombs were falling. And if they were falling short he’d tell them to overshoot the markers and he’d call in the deputy visual centrerers which were following through the raid to keep those markers backed up. And we had backers up and visual centrerers, and he’d call them up and tell them where to drop the, if his markers were a bit off and then he’d direct the raid and tell main force. He called main force up, overshoot to the markers by two seconds to stop the creep back because you always got creep back. People always dropped their bombs short. As one, as Bill used to say, ‘If you’re going over for God’s sake do it properly.’ And you were there the whole of the raid.
[doorbell and knocking]
CB: Just stopping a mo.
[recording paused]
JW: He could, the bomb aimers were pretty good at it and the bombsight we had was really good. And he would then call up [pause] We had backers up, visual centrerers, backers up that would drop flares too because obviously they would gradually go out.
Other 1: Yes.
JW: You know, so he’d call up these people. Their bomb aimers were also good and they would be then bombing on, dropping their flares on the original flares. But if they were slightly off the master bomber would then tell main force. Sometimes they’d put a dummy one up about ten miles away but he’d tell them to ignore that and then he would call them up and say, ‘Overshoot by two seconds,’ to stop as I said the creep back. You always got the creep back. The newer crews used to be at the back of the [unclear] through the raid.
CB: Of the stream. The back of the stream.
JW: Always dropped their bombs short and you could see. You could see that by the way they were falling. So he would tell and they would adjust that and keep the raid going. When we went to the one at Munster, when we got there they was bombing and Bill really called it up and really coated the life out of them. Called them all sorts of things. Concentrate on where the bombers were going and brought the raid back to make it a successful raid.
CB: Why was there bombing creep?
JW: Probably inexperience of the bomb aimers. Nervousness. Perhaps when they were coming along they suddenly, I think it was a natural reaction that they dropped. They got the bombsight coming up to the target and if they think that it’s there but you had to get that, it was a [pause] The gradual was like a red cross on plastic about four inches by two inches that looked.
CB: On the bomb sight.
JW: On the bomb sight as you looked through that and that arrow had to go straight the way through and if it was, this was why sometimes you get thrown off course by slipstream or different things and if, if that happened I used to call dummy run. And then go around the target and come back again. As I say I think that happened about three times and this was on German raids but it was so concentrated and you were oblivious of everything that was going.
Other 1: Yes.
JW: It was quite incredible really. You know. But if you’re not concentrating that much it’s easy enough to press the bomb tit.
CB: So as the bomb aimer you effectively are in control in the last how long? Two minutes or —
JW: Yeah.
CB: Something like that.
JW: Yeah.
CB: And the master bomber you said goes down to make his mark.
JW: Sometimes they would go down. Sometimes they would bomb from the same height.
CB: Right. But then to control the raid.
JW: They’d fly around.
CB: They’d fly above it, would they?
JW: Yeah.
CB: Fly over above everybody else.
JW: They’d fly, they’re coming back at the same height, and they’re usually on the edge of the target and circling around.
CB: Right.
JW: And I mean it was a pretty dangerous job because there was quite a lot of master bombers got shot down because obviously they could pick them up on radar. They’ve got one aircraft going around and around and around.
Other 1: Yes.
CB: Now the master bomber marked in red did he?
JW: It depended. Mainly in red.
CB: And the follow ups would mark in green.
JW: Green. Yeah.
CB: Any other colours?
JW: Yeah. The reds and greens. Sometimes red and greens. Reds. But I don’t think there was any other colours.
CB: So how far back would the green be for doing the marking because this was for the re-energising of the marking wasn’t it?
JW: Well, the master bomber would call that up when he see the, if he sees his flares beginning to fade.
CB: Yeah.
JW: He’d call up and some of them were briefed to go in anyway.
CB: Yeah.
JW: But he would, he would control it from that.
CB: Now, when you did call dummy run what was the actual procedure for getting out and then rejoining the bomber stream?
JW: You just went. We just carried on. Bill, Bill would pull the, close the bomb bay doors. Go on, circle around and come back and join the bomber stream and then do another run on the —
CB: Would it be a standard procedure? You’d always turn left or always turn right or what would it be?
JW: I don’t know. I think we always turn left.
CB: Right. And you’d go out how far because the bomber stream’s quite wide?
JW: I couldn’t tell you that. I don’t know. That would be up to the pilot.
CB: I’m thinking on seconds. So, a minute or — to get out of the stream.
JW: Well, it’s difficult to measure or think about the time. We’d just do it until we get back in.
CB: Yeah.
JW: I don’t think it took that long.
CB: Because you can’t see the other aircraft.
JW: Oh no. occasionally you would see them if you come up. On one occasion I I looked out. I was down in the nose of the aircraft looking and I suddenly see this face in front of me. And I was looking at the rear gunner of another Lancaster. I called Bill up and we were so close to him it was, I could see him. See his face.
CB: What was his reaction?
JW: I don’t know.
CB: He didn’t wave?
JW: No [laughs]
CB: Hello mum.
JW: I think he was clenching his buttocks [laughs]
CB: Can we just go back to, because you’re a flight engineer but you’re effectively changed to do bombing.
JW: Yes.
CB: Because you’re trained as supplementary.
JW: Yeah.
CB: To a bomber, bomb aimer. Your lying prone and you’ve got your head straight down effectively with the bomb sight and the the —
JW: You’re oblivious to everything else.
CB: Yes. And you’ve got the blister that you’re lying in effectively. You’ve got your head in.
JW: Yeah. No. You only put that in afterwards.
CB: Right. So what is, what’s the pattern and what are you seeing and how do you react to what you see because you’re looking at the inferno?
JW: Yeah. You’re looking at, you’re looking at the marker, the indicators, target indicators.
CB: Right.
JW: And you’re getting your cross going through that, those markers and you’re concentrating on that, ‘Left. Left. Steady. Steady. Right. Steady,’ until you get that cross on there and then you press the button. Bombs gone.
CB: So, on your run in you’ve got two minutes effectively when you’re as it were in charge. The navigator is giving you the drift is he? How do you, how do you —
JW: It’s purely and simply, you either, the way the aircraft’s flying. The pilot is just keeping it if he knows you’re steady he’s going to keep that line.
CB: He knows what the drift is.
JW: Yeah.
CB: So —
JW: But you’re telling him that.
CB: Right.
JW: But when we went to, we went and did a raid on Nantes in France we did five. Five dummy runs.
CB: Did you really?
JW: Yeah. Because it was so difficult to see with cloud and everything else. And I think that’s in there.
CB: Is this daylight? Or —
JW: Night flight. Night.
CB: Night. Yeah.
JW: It would be.
CB: What I was trying to get at was there’s the, what you might call the professional aspect of this, of lining up and then calling, ‘Bombs gone.’
JW: Yeah.
CB: But what’s your feeling as you look down into this. Are you busy concentrating on the markers —
JW: You’re oblivious of everything else. I used to be concentrating so much that I didn’t even realise what was going on outside.
CB: So in practical terms there’s a huge barrage of flak bursting all around. Above, below and the side. You’re oblivious to that are you?
JW: Yeah. Yeah. If you’re doing your job properly. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JW: Yes. And this is my, perhaps the feedback if suddenly a shell bursts near somebody and get rid of the bombs but —
CB: Because the navigators are actually sitting in a cubicle with a blanket hanging down so they can’t see anything.
JW: No.
CB: That’s what you meant earlier isn’t it?
JW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So it’s a bit of a shock to them to see what’s happening around them.
JW: Our other two navigators never came out. And it was the last trip that we were fated to do although we didn’t know it at the time when this, this Canadian navigator came out. I mean it’s a bit of a shock if you’ve not seen anything and then you see the shell bursts around you and know that one of those too close is curtains. I suppose yeah it did shake you.
CB: What was the main difference between flying daylight and flying in the night?
JW: Well, flying at night you couldn’t see other aircraft normally. Daylight you can see what’s going on. You can see the shell bursts. You can see fighters coming in. I know that my friend in, on his, it was on his last raid at Hamburg and he watched one of our aircraft go down. Funnily enough his brother lives in, when he’d seen that picture in the paper he got in touch with the paper and said, ‘My brother was on 156.’
CB: Really?
JW: ‘Can you give me that man’s name?’
CB: Yeah.
JW: They said no. They gave me his number. But he watched him go down and they were then attacked by a German jet fighter. And he said he watched it come in. He’d never seen anything move so quick in all his life. He was, the jet fighter opened up with cannons, It shot bits of the tailplane off and never touched Rupert.
CB: That’s the tail gunner.
JW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Extraordinary. So you had a huge variety of raids that you went on. The normal standard was thirty ops and then when you get on to Pathfinders what is the, what is a tour?
JW: When you went on Pathfinders, because of the extended training that you’d had you had to do two tours straight off.
CB: Right.
JW: And because on main force it was thirty trips then you had six months rest and sometimes they called you back sometimes they didn’t. You did another twenty. But on Pathfinders you had to do forty five. But like all of it they were the goalposts. You see I did fifty [pause] fifty two I think to do my two tours because they suddenly brought in a points system. You got five points for a German trip, three points for a French trip and then you had to do [pause] you had to get a hundred and fifty points to finish your first tour. So if it was all French trips it would be more than if it was all French err all German trips. But the, yeah it was, I know there was joke going around about it. If you get shot down over France is it only three fifths dead? Which is, some wag came out with that.
CB: In your case you got the DFM. When did you get that?
JW: It was first promulgated I think in November ’44. I got it in February. 1st of February when I was first noticed it, first notified.
CB: Yeah. ’45. And what about the rest of the crew? What did they get?
JW: The pilot got the DSO and the DFC.
CB: The DSO. At the same time?
JW: No. Different times. DSO, DFC. The two navigators both got the DFC. [pause] The mid-upper gunner got the DFM and the Belgian Croix de Guerre.
CB: Yeah.
JW: I got the DFM and the Croix de Guerre err the Legion of Honour.
CB: Did you get the Croix de Guerre as well?
JW: No.
CB: Oh, right.
JW: And, and of course the Pathfinder award. We all got the Pathfinder award.
CB: Yes. When did that come out?
JW: After you had, when we finished on the squadron.
CB: Right. And as well as getting the scroll what did you get as far as the medal part? There is, there is a, you get a separate badge for Pathfinder.
JW: Yeah. You got that. When you’d done six marker trips you got the temporary award of the Pathfinder badge. You were allowed to wear it on your, you weren’t allowed to wear it on your battledress.
CB: No.
JW: Because if you got shot down and they could see even the holes where [pause] that was your lot.
CB: Yeah.
JW: So, but that’s, as I say that’s the Pathfinder badge. That’s, after the war people were wearing it and some of the jumped up people in the offices said in the higher ranks, ‘You can’t wear that. You can’t wear that anymore.’ But Bennett was a lot cleverer than they thought because when he promulgated it it was promulgated as an award. Not as a badge. It’s an actual award. So they couldn’t stop them wearing it.
CB: This is Air Marshall Bennett.
JW: Yeah.
CB: The CO CNC Pathfinders.
JW: Yeah.
CB: Did you meet him many times?
JW: I never met him. You met him if you went, if you applied for a commission. Then you met him. But I wasn’t interested in a commission. A, it meant a drop in pay for six months and I didn’t fancy that [laughs]
CB: And then you changed messes.
JW: Yeah.
CB: You had to change messes.
JW: Yeah.
CB: We’ve talked a lot about the action but what about in the time off? What did you do then? Did you, did you go out as a crew?
JW: With the —
CB: Socially.
JW: The mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator, myself from the time we met we used to go. We were never out of each other’s company. We even arranged our leave passes. They lived in Newcastle. I lived in Guildford. But we managed to get our leave passes that worked when you, when you looked at it it went from Burradon which was just outside Newcastle to Guildford. So we’d get, when we had leave every six weeks we’d go to Newcastle for three days. We’d get out at Newcastle and say, ‘Oh, we’re going on to Burradon later.’ So you kept your ticket. When we got to, going back there after three days we’d go back to Guildford. We’d get down to Kings Cross and of course you’ve got, you’ve got to go over to Waterloo to get to Guildford. But we used to buy a ticket from Waterloo. It was only about a shilling. Something like that. And so we used to be able to go three days in one place. Three days in the other and —
CB: Overnight travel.
JW: Yeah [laughs] it was, but we used to, all used to go and so our leave was together. Going out we’d be out as a crew. We’d usually meet girls as well. So the only time we were apart is when you were in one corner they were in another [laughs] But we used to go out. We used to go out and drink. You never used, sometimes you did get a bit tipsy. You never went out to get drunk which is what seems to be the norm today. But you went out, you got drunk but because of what you were drinking. You didn’t sit there swilling it to get as much down you as you could.
CB: No. But was the social aspect of life on a squadron partly an antidote to the experiences of raids?
JW: Well, it’s, it’s like I say you used to go out every night you could. We were getting around about seven guineas a week I think at that time which was a lot of money. Beer at a penny err a shilling a pint you know. And —
Other 1: Chris.
CB: Right. We’ll turn off a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Seven guineas a week.
JW: Yeah. That’s what I was getting then.
CB: And beer was a shilling a pint.
JW: A shilling a pint. Yeah. But it was, some days you’d have do in the mess. Perhaps a dance or something like that but mainly we used to go out if we could. I know when I spoke about the discipline on 156, they decided, they had a group captain Airey there who was a station commander and he’d lost three court martials in a row. So that meant he had to be posted but they put in charge a man for discip. A disciplinarian. A man called Menaul. Menaul. And group captain Airey, he was an elderly man but he used to go out on ops occasionally and, but Menaul, I don’t think he ever did. One thing he did do I found out afterwards was when they were bringing prisoners of war back he’d do those trips all right. But on one occasion there was the mid-upper, Bert, Appy, Bert and myself and the rear gunner of another squadron, another crew. A chap called Ron Smith and we going up to Ramsey. To the camp. To the aerodrome. The first entrance you got to was the officer’s entrance what went past the station commanders house. And then you went on another couple of hundred yards to come to the main gate. But this particular night we’d been down, we weren’t drunk we’d been and had a couple of pints each. We decided to go in through the officer’s entrance and we were quite a way along it and suddenly a car pulled up behind us and a voice yelled out, ‘Airmen.’ We knew at once who it was so we scarpered. I went over a fence. The other, I don’t know where the other two went. And then the car, he was looking around. He couldn’t see anybody because it was dark. And the car drove off and then I heard a voice say, ‘Where the bloody hell has he gone to?’ And of course I was on the other side of the fence and walked up and frightened the life out of them. But then we carried on walking and we had to go past the airmen’s billets because this was a peacetime ‘drome so it was all brick buildings. But every time a car came in the main gate we were in open ground. So we had to go down on the flat. We knew what was going to happen. The next morning he had all the squadron into this room and bearing in mind his, his war record was I think one tour as a fighter pilot towards the end of the war and he insulted, he called us all the names under the sun. Now, at this time we’d got something like sixty trips in between each. Appy was fuming. But everybody on the unit knew who the people were except him. Even the adjutant knew. And two of Appy’s mates are sitting on either side of him holding him down. And if we’d have owned up God knows what he would have done. But he couldn’t do the whole squadron so, but do you know what? After the war that man, somebody was writing a book about [pause] I’ve not been able to find a copy of it. I had a copy but I leant it to somebody and I never had it back. It was, they were talking about the airfields in Lincolnshire and round in Cambridgeshire and he had, they’d, they’d interviewed him and he said in there that on that occasion we had gone up to his front door, frightened his wife, urinated against his front door. I wanted the book back because I was going to take the author something about, for libel. Slander. Whatever it is. But anyhow I never got the book back so I could never see it. But they’d actually quoted him verbatim in there. Saying that we’d frightened the wife, his wife and daughter and urinated against his front door. Now, what idiot could do that sort of thing? But that’s in the book. So if he had known who we were, this was written after the war our names would have been there.
CB: Extraordinary.
JW: But funnily enough a friend of mine who was on the squadron with me he lived in Brighton and he lived near Hamish Mahaddie and he went to see Hamish and he was talking about Menaul to Hamish. ‘Don’t talk to me about that — ’ so and so, he said. So he was not only liked, disliked by the rank and file he was utterly disliked by his peers.
CB: There are occasions when very, when senior officers, group captains did fly.
JW: Yeah.
CB: And that’s how they got them in the prison camps.
JW: Yeah.
CB: In some cases. So under what circumstances would they do it, and what would they do?
JW: It was up to them. They decided what they’d do, where they’d go and what they —
CB: And would they be the pilot, the captain or would they just be there for the ride?
JW: If they took over the crew they were the captain. But if they went as the supernumery the pilot is always the captain.
CB: Yes.
JW: Even if he’s a sergeant and he’s got flight lieutenants in his crew he is still the captain.
CB: Yeah. So these people would be flying as the pilot normally would they? The group captains.
JW: No. Not necessarily. They’d go along, you know.
CB: Just to get the experience.
JW: Yeah. Just to get to [pause] but I know that Group Captain Airey went on at least two or three. They weren’t supposed to so it was done surreptitiously.
CB: Might have been a good defence in the court martial.
JW: Yeah [laughs]
CB: What would you say was your most memorable recollection of being in the RAF in the war?
JW: Just the odd occasion when, to get away with as many trips as we did you had to fly a lot of trips where there was nothing happening. There was no, you know, you got away with it. You dropped your bombs you got back, and [pause] But of the probably eight or nine instances when we were attacked by fighters or got hit by flak [unclear] [pause] Probably the time when I looked up and see that bloody aircraft above us with his bomb doors open.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. You talked about the Nuremberg raid a lot of which was in bright moonlight. What did you see in terms of aircraft exploding?
JW: Well, we were, it was our second trip on the Pathfinder squadron so we were acting as supporters, which meant we were right at the front of the — with the master bomber.
CB: Right.
JW: And we were following three Mosquitoes that were doing a spoof raid up to Hamburg I think. Somewhere up there. And we were right behind them so we think we got that through before they realised where the raid was going to go. So what was happening was behind us. I mean the gunners were calling out and saying that they could see aircraft going down but where we were we, we thought it was dangerous because I think the last two hundred miles was a straight leg, straight down to Nuremberg and there were searchlights nearly all the way down there, but so, from our point of view being at the front of the wave of bombers meant that the fighters only took off when they were behind us before they realised where we were going.
CB: Yeah.
JW: And when we got down to come back, lower down in Germany by that time they were down on the floor refuelling. So probably that’s the reason why we got through again.
CB: What was your understanding of the term scarecrow?
JW: Well, they said they were sending up these huge it was like a big dustbin if you like coming up, and they were explaining but in actual fact what they never told us was though they must have known about it was upward firing, the up firing guns and we didn’t know about them. they weren’t, we weren’t told about it.
CB: The Schrage Musik.
JW: Yeah. It was [pause] I know on one occasion on, it was, I think it was on the Nuremberg raid, our mid-upper gunner told me this there was a, the wireless operator had Fishpond. What was called Fishpond. It was an offshoot of H2S and it would pick up fighters.
CB: Trailing behind you.
JW: But the fighter, the fighter disappeared when it got within a hundred and fifty feet, and the wireless operator and the mid-upper gunner were, he was telling him where it was. That he could see it. And then suddenly it disappeared and then Appy said that as we were flying along another Lanc alongside of us, and it used to go over about that sort of speed as you were going over. As it got underneath us it suddenly blew up. And what we think was that that fighter was beneath us firing at us and this other Lanc came in underneath and got blown up instead of us. That’s what, that’s what our mid-upper was thinking, you know. That’s what he thought. He said, it was the fact it disappeared from the Fishpond meant it was within a closer range to come off where it wasn’t showing up and he said this other Lanc, it was, it used to be ok, you used to see it going very slowly underneath you but as it did, as it went underneath suddenly it went up.
CB: Did you feel the blast?
JW: No. No. I don’t know what sort of, you know, I didn’t see the aircraft going under us.
CB: No.
JW: But him being the mid-upper gunner he was, he was up at the top. He could see quite a lot.
CB: You talked about the wing commander who flew in a weave. To what extent were you aware of LMF?
JW: I don’t know of anybody who was accused of it. All I know is that any aircrew never condemned anybody as LMF. It was only some little jumped up merchant in an office sitting behind a desk who’d never even seen a gun let along had one fired who decided this. But I can understand at the top stating it, because they said that if it was easy enough to just pack up the threat of LMF was [pause] but the way they treated them when they were. I mean people had done two or three trips. But not everybody’s the same, and some people just couldn’t. You know, it’s quite, it was quite terrifying really at times. Obviously. I don’t know what we’d have done if it, we were lucky enough not to get hit but, but even so you were quite aware of the fact that you could easily get killed if, you know. You put it out of your mind but you knew really deep down that that was, that was an option. You’ll have to excuse me.
CB: Yeah. We’ll stop for a mo.
[recording paused]
JW: Well —
CB: Now, you you also relied on the ground crew and you talked about the chiefy earlier. What was the relationship between the aircrew and the groundcrew?
JW: Well, that was, well funnily enough I don’t know any of their names. because we had [pages turning]
CB: The ground crew would often look after two aircraft.
JW: That is in, that picture is in quite a few places. And that’s the ground crew. I tried to find out the names of them and I couldn’t. I hoped somebody would be able to find them by publishing it but they couldn’t.
CB: And how did the, how did you get on or did you not talk to them much?
JW: Oh you, we didn’t socialise with them. As I said we didn’t socialise with anybody except our own crew.
CB: Quite.
JW: And it was only the three of us.
CB: Who did it. Yes. But the officers would tend to socialise separately from the airmen wouldn’t they?
JW: Yeah.
CB: Anyway.
JW: Anyhow, there’s [pause] When we were getting dressed we’d get our flying kit on.
CB: Yeah.
JW: We used to sing [pause] it was, I forget the artist who sing it. “My mother done told me when I was in knee pants.” [laughs] We used to sing that as we were getting ready.
CB: And then when you got to the aircraft what rituals were there there? Like watering the rear wheel.
JW: No. We never did that. I don’t think there were any. We used to, I know that with all the checks that we used to have to make, about seventy checks but all the ones outside I never used to let the ground crew see me doing them because I always thought they would think I wasn’t trusting them. So I used to walk round and you could, you could check them yourself without which let them see that you trusted them to do their checks as well. The ones inside the aircraft of course were ok.
Other 1: Was there a very close relationship between the ground crew and the flying crew?
JW: Not as close as you would think.
Other 1: Because there’s a huge amount of reliance or —
JW: Oh yeah. You trusted them completely.
Other 1: You’d have to.
JW: Yeah. I’ll tell you what though. One thing that was happening when we, we were going. A we were taking, got around, suddenly Bill said, ‘We’ve got no brake pressure.’ So he said, ‘Do we need it in the air?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well we can carry on then.’ I said, ‘Yeah’ You don’t use your brakes in the air do you? So the only thing we had to be careful of was taxiing around behind other aircraft. And we took off and when was it that [pause] it meant that when we got back they wouldn’t let us land there. They sent us over to Woodbridge. But on another occasion we were on the short runway and this is when I, you heard say, Bill flew the aircraft by feel as well. On the short runway and there was something wrong with the speed.
CB: Airspeed indicator. Yeah.
JW: Because it was showing a completely different reading on the, on the instrument to what was and he could feel that according to the reading you could take but he didn’t, he flew it without and by the feel and when he felt it could take off on the short runway and I knew that the airspeed cover had been taken off because I’d checked that myself.
CB: Yeah.
JW: And I said to him, ‘There might be an insect in there or something.’ Anyhow, I said, ‘Right. We’ll go through all the checks. Every check that we normally do inside.’ And one of them just in front of the door at the back was it was about that size. A rubber thing with a hole in and there used to be plugs put in that. So you had to check to make sure the plugs were out and I knew that if one was out they’d both be out. The only way I could check it was to sit with the door open and reach along the side of the fuselage and I could just reach it. I knew I could. So what I did I put my parachute on because I realised I could get sucked out. I had Bert hanging on my legs in the fuselage. Opened the door. And when I told Ed Straw who used to fly the Lanc that we’ve got now he said, ‘You bloody idiot,’ he said, ‘You could have been killed. If you’d have got sucked out,’ he said, ‘The tailplane would have hit you.’ I said, ‘I know. That’s why I — ’ Anyhow, I did try that and went on and did all the rest but I couldn’t see the other side. I said to Bill. I don’t know what I was going to do. He didn’t say anything so I thought good. But yeah it was quite funny really.
CB: And the result was?
JW: It was, it was, it was as I knew it would be. The plug wasn’t in there. But this was at ten thousand feet over Guildford.
CB: Oh right [laughs]
JW: And I thought if I fall out I could go home.
CB: Go home. Yeah. Ideal. Yeah. Did people fly with lucky charms?
JW: Yeah. I think they did. I used to have a white scarf I used to carry with me. A silk scarf. Because you couldn’t wear your tie because if you came down in the water it could shrink and choke you. But —
Other 1: Yes.
CB: And did you have any weapon on you?
JW: They issued us just after D-Day. They issued us all with revolvers.
CB: 38s.
JW: Yeah. The aircrew NCOs could only wear, they had to carry them in camp. But officers had to carry them at all times because they thought that the Germans might drop parachutists on to the aerodromes
CB: Oh.
JW: And, but the other thing that I had was a six inch bowie knife. I had them both tucked in me, in me flying boots because I always thought, it never occurred to me if we got shot down that I’d get killed. Didn’t occur to me that. And I thought, and afterwards we used to go on these three day weeks and I thought, I looked, we went out on a trip on the Rhine and I thought, you thought you were going to get across. You can’t bloody swim and you were going to get across there. What sort of daydream were you in? I mean it goes on forever. The width of it. Doesn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
Other 1: It does.
CB: When the war finished did you do any Cook’s Tours?
JW: No. No. We’d been slung off. We were taken off. In April posted away from the unit and never got near an aircraft after that. Oh. I went up. I went up once with, when I was posted, first posted to the Wellington OTU. And they wanted you to go up and they wanted somebody, you need somebody sitting in the tail of a Wellington. I said, ‘I’ll go with you.’ With the pilot and the navigator. We came down and had a look around over where I lived. But —
CB: Not in Germany.
JW: No.
CB: Where did you meet your wife?
JW: Oh, this was, we were working. Both working in the same firm. Works outing actually. We went. They took us all down for Brighton for the day. Two coaches. And we went in to, I didn’t even know she was working there, went in to lunch and suddenly this girl looked around and she had the most beautiful blue eyes. And I thought cor, you lovely blue eyes. Anyhow, I didn’t expect to ever see her again. But in those days the coaches used to go and park somewhere, then they’d come along the front, creep along very slowly and you picked your bus, your coach out and got on as it was going along. And when I got on she was sitting on the front seat. I said, ‘Anybody sitting with you?’ ‘No.’ It was a right curt. I thought I’ll sit down anyway. Got chatting and halfway back we stopped at a pub and had a drink. A couple of drinks. And we got the bottom of Waterloo Road, the factory was. We stopped outside there. We all got off the coach. And she said, ‘You’re not leaving me here on my own are you?’ I said, ‘No. Where do you live?’ She lived just around the corner from the Elephant and Castle. Anyhow, she said, ‘Come and have a cup of tea.’ So I was in there when all the family came back. They’d all been at the pub at the top of the road. Met the family. That was quite strange because when it comes time to say cheerio she went down and presented her sister and her husband had the bottom flat and they had the flat above. And I shall never forget, I said to her, ‘Can I kiss you goodnight?’ She said, ‘I’d have hit you if you hadn’t.’ [laughs] By this time although she was very curt to start with by this time we’d sort of got some rapport and I arranged to meet her again in a week. But when I got outside there was a rail strike on and so I couldn’t get back to Guildford but I was staying with my grandmother at Putney. I got outside and I thought bloody hell how the hell do I get to Putney? All I’d got in my pocket was a half a crown. And I hadn’t got a clue where I was. Anyhow, I walked up to the main road and I see a taxi. I hailed him. He said, ‘I’ve finished mate.’ I said, ‘Oh I’m in trouble, trouble here,’ I said, ‘I’m trying to get back to Putney and I don’t know where it is,’ I said, ‘I’ve only got a half — ’ ‘Get in,’ he said, ‘I’ll take you to Putney Bridge which was, I knew where I was then. And he did. And it was ever so good of him. But then we went out and then later on we decided to get married.
CB: When did you get married?
JW: In September the 1st on 1956.
CB: What was the company you were working for then?
JW: It was Cockayne and Company.
CB: Who?
JW: Cockayne’s.
CB: Oh Cockayne.
JW: C O C K A Y N E. The chap who owned it used to drive around. He used to have a chauffeur with a Rolls Royce and his chauffeur wore a peak cap, gaters, polished gaters. And occasionally he would come around. At Christmas usually he would come around and say hello to everybody. I forget his name now. But they had a factory in Eastleigh in Southampton. And we went down once to play football with them. A football match. Clever they were. Treated us all to a bloody great lunch. And then their team arrived didn’t it? We were playing football on a full stomach.
CB: Different people. Yes. Gamesmanship they call it.
JW: Yeah. Yeah. We were married for [pause] She died in 2013.
CB: Oh dear. Was she younger than you or —
JW: She was five years younger than me.
CB: Well, Jack Watson. A really interesting conversation. Thank you so much.
JW: I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Robert Watson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWatsonJR180202, PWatsonJR1501
Format
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02:04:35 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Robert Watson joined RAF Bomber Command in 1943, volunteering after he witnessed his next-door neighbour's house being destroyed by a bomb. Against his father's wishes, John joined Bomber Command initially as a wireless operator, before transferring to a flight engineer course. Travelling to RAF Ouston, John flew in Lancasters and Halifaxes. His first operation took place on the 17th of January 1944, which he believed he would not survive. His second operation was to Berlin and featured another close call, in which he almost crashed into another Lancaster. He remembers his crew fondly, stating that they did well throughout the war because they trusted one another so much. Joining the Pathfinders force, John travelled from RAF Wickenby to RAF Warboys, changing crews and being put through extra training. Completing over 40 operations John recalls several operations, including one over Nuremberg which featured another close call. John was then moved again and became a flight instructor for Wellingtons. He also gives information regarding his crew, being a flight instructor, his scariest moment whilst flying, the impact of lack of morale fibre, and master bombers' role. He also gives several humorous stories of his time at RAF stations and his run-ins with higher-ranking service members. During his service as a Pathfinder, John received the Distinguished Flying Medal, the Legion of Honour and the Pathfinder badge. When he was demobilized, he became disillusioned with discipline within the RAF and continued his apprenticeship, meeting and marrying his wife in 1956 and living with her until she passed away in 2013.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Northumberland
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-01-17
1956
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
12 Squadron
156 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Medal
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Master Bomber
mid-air collision
military ethos
Pathfinders
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ouston
RAF Warboys
RAF Wickenby
recruitment
searchlight
training
Wellington
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Knox, Tommy
Thomas Knox
T Knox
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Tommy Knox (1925 - 2020, 1823036 Royal Air Force) his log book and a physical training certificate. He completed 40 operations: 22 with 149 Squadron, mostly low-level supply drops to the Maquis in France, and the rest on Radio Counter Measures duties with 199 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Tommy Knox and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Knox, T
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. It’s with Tommy Knox who was a flight engineer with 149 and 199 Squadrons on Stirlings. It’s the 26th of June 2019. We’re at Tommy’s place in Mona Vale. My name is Adam Purcell. So, Tommy, let’s start at the beginning. Can you tell me something about growing up in Glasgow?
TK: Growing up in Glasgow?
AP: Yeah.
TK: Oh, well, I had a brother and a sister, and we lived just north of the city in a tenement ‘til I was about five and then we moved to a new, a new housing estate on the south side of the city called Carnwadric. And that’s where I spent most of my childhood. That’s, I went to school there. And my father was a coach builder and they always had, they always had work. We were very fortunate in the Depression that he always had a job and mum stayed home and looked after the kids the way it used to be [laughs] and we had a terrific childhood. It was right on the perimeter of the city and right at our back door was a wheat field and a dairy farm, you know. So we had nothing like a city upbringing. It was more a rural upbringing you know, and we had a great time there fishing for [unclear] and newts and tadpoles and picking wild strawberries and brambles, you know. It was great [pause] And then went to the primary school there. Won a scholarship when I was twelve, and finished up in Allan Glen’s which was a private school in the city which I didn’t like. But anyway, when, when the war started the school closed and I got myself a job in a local jewellers, you know and through the Boy’s Brigade which I was a member of the Boy’s Brigade for years. I started off with the Life Boys when I was nine. Transferred to the Boy’s Brigade when I was twelve, and I still keep an interest in it, you know. And anyway, after about three or four months school opened again and after, after working then going back to school I didn’t, I didn’t quite appreciate it. Anyway, I thought I didn’t like Allan Glen’s so I left school. Left school at fifteen and went to take, studied engineering at night. Night school. And, and then started an apprenticeship in the railways. An engineering apprenticeship. Mainly, I don’t know, I don’t really know why I joined the railways but mainly my father worked there and all my uncles were [laughs] The whole family. They were all railwaymen in one, one sense or another. And then of course the war was, the war was on and it was a Reserved Occupation. You had to stay there. The only way you could out of it was aircrew so I thought well aircrew would be a damned sight better. We were on twelve hour shifts. Six in the morning ‘til six at night and I thought this is no bloody good. So I, you could volunteer at seventeen and a quarter so I did that and went to Edinburgh and did all the tests. And anyway, at eighteen I got called up and did the flight engineer’s course at St Athan in South Wales and, and the rest is history.
AP: Indeed. When [pause] there must have been a feeling that war was coming.
TK: Yeah.
AP: For a while before it was declared. How did you feel as a young bloke going through that time and then when war was actually declared what was that like?
TK: Well, I was fourteen when the war, when the war started. I never thought much about it. Too busy enjoying myself [laughs]
AP: Did you have an inkling that you would, you would be involved in some way? Was that always —
TK: Not really. Didn’t really think too much about it but when I got to be seventeen I started to think, ‘Well, may be in this.’
AP: It was still going, I suppose. Yeah. Ok. Ok. So you went straight from the railways to aircrew.
TK: Yeah. Yeah. Got called up to Lord’s Cricket Ground. That’s where I had to report to. I’ve never been back since [laughs]
AP: What, what happened there? Once you got there what happened?
TK: Well, we got kitted out. Uniforms, everything else and billeted in a block at St Johns Wood. And from there we went down to Torquay on the south coast of Devon and did the initial training. Initial Training Wing. Six weeks there square bashing and everything else and learning how strong the cider can be in Devon [laughs] I never drank but I thought I’d better try this cider and it would blow your head off, you know. But six weeks there, and then we moved to St Athan and did the Number 4 School of Technical Training. And that was a six months course and it was a general all round course to start with. Then part of the way through you had to specialise because as I say all the jobs were completely different. Different aircraft. And I don’t know, there was a choice of the Stirling, the Halifax, the Lancaster, the Sunderland. All the aircraft were flight engineers. I saw this picture of a Stirling. I’d never seen one before. Big, beautiful, Clyde built you know. I thought that would do me.
AP: Clyde built. I like it.
TK: And that’s why I picked Stirlings. My pal and I both picked Stirlings. And fortunately, if I’d picked Lancs I probably wouldn’t be here. I was just lucky. The timing was just right. they took us off main targets and the next night there was a raid on Nuremberg and they lost ninety six aircraft the day after we were taken off main targets. Ninety six Lancs and Halifaxes went. Gone.
AP: [unclear]
TK: So we had a pretty trouble free tour. We got whacked a few times but nothing, nothing terrific and the special, special duties dropping supplies to the Maquis was quite — it was all low level. Right down on the deck and all map reading and it was great fun. You were away in the middle of France. A pilot, marvellous navigation, map reading. The bomb aimer was down there map reading and it was quite, and to see the, there were three lights and then another light flashing a Morse letter and that was no, no Pathfinders, no nothing. You were on your own. And then we found it and see the little people running out with the ‘chutes going down, you know. It was quite [pause] So, I really enjoyed it.
AP: Yeah. Quite an experience. I’m interested to hear a bit more about your Technical Training School. What, what sort of things did you do to learn about the Stirling?
TK: Well, we had just a classroom and it was, it was all divided up. Hydraulics, electrics, propellers, engines and so on. We each had a different, a different teacher for each particular subject, you know. And then, that’s the freezer banging away. So it was very interesting, yeah.
AP: Was it, was it all mostly book work? Or did you have, you know parts to play with or to look at or simulate in some sense? Or —
TK: Yeah. Well, we did. We did the [pause] the funniest thing about the whole thing was that I did the whole course and got my brevet, my stripes, and I’d never been off the deck. I’d never flown. I thought bloody stupid you know because people get airsick.
AP: Yeah.
TK: Anyway, I’d never flown and the first time I flew was when we got to the Heavy Conversion Unit. And I think we got, for air experience and they put me in the tail turret. The first time I was off the deck in a tail turret [laughs] And we started to taxi around the perimeter track and I’m looking for the intercom We’ve got to plug it in and I’m looking everywhere and we were damned near at the end of the runway to take off and I finally found it and it was way down between my knees, you know. And apparently the skipper had been calling up, ‘Are you alright?’ No answer because I couldn’t find the bloody plug. Anyway —
AP: Was that in a Stirling?
TK: Oh yeah.
AP: What did you think the first time you went flying backwards in a Stirling?
TK: [laughs] I, I was, I was, well I was trained in them and I was very familiar with them and there was plenty of room. Very, very roomy. Fourteen foot longer than a Lanc. There was plenty of room. And another funny thing it never even had a seat. There was a seat originally but they took it out and I used to sit on a couple of dais, right opposite the engineer’s control panel, you know. That was fine.
AP: So where, where is the engineer’s panel in a Stirling?
TK: So, the starboard side. It was dual control too which the Lanc and the Halifax didn’t have. Complete dual control. So there was the pilot, the bomb aimer, the navigator was at the left hand side and the engineer was on the right hand side and the wireless operator was next to him at the port side. And I spent most of my time just, and we used to have to take a log every twenty minutes and work out the fuel consumption. You couldn’t depend on the gauges you know. So you had to work out the fuel consumption for different revs and boosts, and do all the odd, odd jobs. Turn on the oxygen at ten thousand feet and any odd job, you got it. When the undercarriage failed you had to wind the bloody thing up. Terrible undercarriage. Oh dear. Oh dear. But once in the air like a fighter. It was marvellous. They chopped the wings short. The Air Ministry in their wisdom chopped fourteen feet off the wingspan and of course that reduced its lift, but increased its manoeuvrability at low level and oh, it was marvellous. It could out turn a Lanc. Could even out turn a Hurricane, you know. Boy oh boy. It was great.
AP: Good fun I think. How did you meet your crew?
TK: Well, it was funny. When I met the crew they were already formed. They were flying Wellingtons and this was the Heavy Conversion Unit and as I say I’d never been up. We were all in a hangar and they just said, ‘Well, just wander around among yourselves and some, some, if you like a particular pilot for any reason just ask him if they’ve got an engineer.’ If not, it was just every man for himself, you know. There was no, no reason. No rhyme or reason for you going with this crew. It was just a matter of [pause] and I was very lucky. I had two Aussies, two Canadians and two Englishmen. So it was a really mixed crew, you know.
AP: So when you, when you did this crewing up thing in, you are all in the hangar. Were, was there just the pilot who was there? Or was the whole crew?
TK: The whole crew was there.
AP: So you just wandered around introducing people.
TK: Yeah. The whole crew was there. Yeah.
AP: So you already knew what you were getting in to.
TK: [laughs] Yeah.
AP: Very good. I think you once wrote me a letter and said, “So, I was the peacemaker.”
TK: Oh yeah [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Yorkshiremen were a bit —
AP: So, your first, your first flight was that air experience thing at, at the Conversion Unit.
TK: The first trip was mine lying. Laying mines I think, from memory.
AP: Right. I’m still looking at your flying, sorry your training at the moment. Your Conversion Unit training. What, I’m just looking at your logbook. I’m seeing so I see you’ve written here, “second engineer,” while you’re training.
TK: What was that one?
AP: In your logbook you’ve written, “Second engineer.”
TK: Oh yeah. Well, that was Heavy Conversion Unit and you go with an experienced engineer. In fact, the whole crew did. You know.
AP: So there were like two.
TK: So the skipper went with an experienced skipper and engineer. I remember his name too. Tubby Rollo. R O L L O. Tubby Rollo.
AP: Rollo. Right.
TK: And the pilot was an Aussie. Wooley. We called him Hank. Hank Wooley. And my skipper and him I think they must have supported different teams. They were both Victorians and my skipper didn’t like Hank Wooley. He tended to shoo off you know while we sort of buzzed along and then all of a sudden he’d throw her over. [laughs] I thought what’s going on here? Yeah.
AP: Right. So where, where was your Heavy Conversion Unit?
TK: Where?
AP: Yeah. Where was your Heavy Conversion Unit?
TK: Stradishall. That was in Suffolk.
AP: Suffolk. What, what sort of a base was that? What sort of a place?
TK: Oh, it was just a wartime base.
AP: Yeah. Ok.
TK: We didn’t get on to any permanent bases.
AP: Rats [laughs] That’s fantastic. Ok. Alright, so you went from there after a month or so maybe by the looks of things. Two months. Oh no. A bit longer than that. Yeah. Two, two and a half months. Ten weeks or something at the conversion course and then you went to the squadron. So —
TK: I forget.
AP: That’s what your logbook says.
TK: Does it?
AP: Yeah.
TK: Oh, in the book.
AP: Then you went to the squadron so 149 Squadron at Mildenhall.
TK: Lakenheath.
AP: Lakenheath. I was wrong. Sorry.
TK: Lakenheath is, it’s still there. The Yanks. The Yanks are there, and it had a very long runway and yeah and then after a while we moved to Methwold which was in Suffolk. And yeah, we did most of them, and then when, when the squadron converted on to Lancs we had already done twenty two trips so there must have in their wisdom thought are they worthwhile converting them on to Lancs? So they found another special duties squadron on radio counter measures with special radio behind the main spar and another wireless operator joined the crew and he used to baffle the German’s radar, and instructions to the pilots and he spoke German. It was very interesting but it was mainly circuits like on a racecourse. You get to somewhere on the path to the main target and you’d orbit then and send out all these dummy signals, you know. Yeah. And chuck out Window. That was another one of my jobs. Chucking out Window through the flare chute. And interesting, the flare chute was right, right below me. Right below the engineer’s panel. And the skipper, when he wanted, when he wanted to go for a leak he used to come, kneel down at the flare chute and piss out the flare chute [laughs]
AP: Lovely. Alright. Tell me, tell me about some of your, your operations then.
TK: Well, as I say the, the supply dropping was most interesting and ideal for the Stirling because it was all two hundred feet and the Hercs were very very silent. Beautiful sound, you know and they were ideal for the job. Mine laying was the most uninteresting because you were over the sea. And you used to get a bit of opposition from flak ships if you were getting near a port which we used to drop the mines there in Kiel and I forget the places but the flak ships used to give us a bit of [unclear] and you were, you were on your, virtually on your own you know. There wasn’t a whole heap of aircraft. We did a few bombing, we actually never bombed Germany. We bombed France would you believe? Railway marshalling yards and strategic things, you know. So we had to be pretty spot on that we didn’t bomb the French people as much as we tried, you know. But, yeah. Good fun.
AP: Good fun. You said there were a few, a few little instances of things that happened on some of your trips. What sorts of things?
TK: Well, there was one. We got hit by flak and I forget which one but the bomb aimer was a Canadian and he was very prone to exaggeration like a lot of Canadians are, you know. Anyway, we got banged up a bit and a voice comes up, ‘I’ve got a hole down here big enough to throw a cow through,’ you know. Which was a load of bullshit. There was a hole alright but you couldn’t get a cow through it. And the, the tail gunner Nobby Clark, he was a Yorkshireman, and he used to fall asleep. Fall asleep.
AP: Really?
TK: I used to get out of the belt at the back of the turret to wake him up, you know. That was another job I got [laughs]
AP: So you really were Mr Fixit.
TK: And then there was a funny thing. The navigator, Jack, Jack Tipple great navigator but didn’t have much sense of humour and he was a Yorkshireman as well. He came from Sheffield. Anyway, the elsan, the toilet was way down the back, and when Jack came stumbling past me through the main spar right down to the elsan as I’m watching him. Anyway, he’d undone all his zippers and getting ready to have a piddle. And I said to Hughey the skipper, ‘Ok Hughey, throw the aircraft [laughs] Jack’s stumbling all over the place. Anyway, he knew. He knew who did it you know. And he come up and he kicked the tripe out of me, ‘You bastard.’ [laughs] That was a lot of fun.
AP: I see a note here that on one of your early, might have been your second trip. Hit by flak. Diverted. And then it says port wheel burst on landing.
TK: Oh yeah.
AP: Tell me about that.
TK: We got flak in the tyre and as we landed it deflated of course and we swerved off but that was, finished up alright. Nothing collapsed, you know. They didn’t encourage us to, to write in too much detail for some reason you know. Just keep it brief. So I never used to write much in.
AP: A little bit. Yeah. it just says, “Ops Special France,” many times. That’s what we’ve got. Methwold. That’s interesting. Fighter affiliation with a Hurricane.
TK: Oh yeah.
AP: What happened there?
TK: That’s fighter affiliation. We used to go up with a Hurricane that would attack us you know and we would, just out manoeuvre it, you know. That was good fun. There was another time, I was sitting up in the mid-upper turret just to familiarise myself with it and a Mosquito came up right next to us and he stuck his mainplane in between our mainplane and the tailplane. Right up. Right up next to us and actually waving [laughs] and that was good. And then he just sailed away, and away he went.
AP: That would have been pretty cool to see I think.
TK: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Look through what else have we’ve got. [pause] A couple of mentions here of having to hand wind the wheels up. You had to wind the wheels up.
TK: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Where was that? How did that work?
TK: Oh, the —
AP: The mechanism. Yeah.
TK: Yeah. It sits next to the panel. The engineer’s panel.
AP: And there’s like a big wheel or a hand.
TK: Yeah.
AP: Or something. Yeah. Ok. Very good. While you were on leave, so you were obviously on operations for, for a fair period and you would have I think the standard was leave every six weeks or something like that.
TK: Yeah.
AP: What did you do then? Did you go home or did you go to London? Or —
TK: Yeah. I went home. I took some of the crew up, up to Scotland too, and they were billeted in various neighbour’s places, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, we were well looked after. Leave every six weeks and we used to get taken on kind of excursions to some of the stately homes you know. They’d put on a, not so much a barbecue but they’d put on some food, you know. Yeah. It was good. Oh yeah.
AP: So was this as a crew or aircrew in general?
TK: Yeah. The whole crew. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. Ok.
TK: And then, on some leaves I used to go with the Canadians down to London and go in to the Canadian Club, and I’ll always remember the Canadian griddle cakes with syrup. Oh, bloody beautiful, you know. Yeah. And then there was plenty of places set up. The YMCA for a bed for the night, you know.
AP: What, what was wartime London like? What was the atmosphere like in, in London during the —
TK: In London?
AP: Yeah.
TK: Oh, they were very very good. Didn’t worry them at all sort of thing. They were very stoic you know. Yeah. And then when, when we finished the tour, when we broke up I was sent to a Maintenance Unit, and I was on the bench just for a little while. And then there was a vacancy in the drawing office so I went there as a draughtsman in the drawing office and that was, that was a really cushy post you know.
AP: Yeah.
TK: And I enjoyed that and by that time I was a, used to get promotion over time every year. You started off as a sergeant and in a year you become a flight sergeant. Another year you become a warrant officer. Well, I was a warrant officer in the drawing office and the chief of the drawing office was a sergeant. But you know it was an aircrew promotion so it wasn’t, it wasn’t a true promotion you know. And then one day I looked at the DROs, the Daily Routine Orders, and by this time it was, it was 1946. The war had finished when I was in the drawing office and they were looking for parachute jumper instructors and my mate and I said, Oh, get back flying again,’ you know. So we put our names down and we were accepted and we did a PTI’s course. You had to do that first. Physical training instructor. Six weeks of that. Oh marvellous. Playing football and gymnastics and God knows what. And then we went to Ringway, Manchester and did the initial jumps out of a balloon. Sometimes a balloon and then out of a Dakota I think it was. It’s all in there. And then they were looking for volunteers for the Middle East. There was a lot of trouble with the Jews and the Arabs there. The Stern Gang, you know blowing up everything British, you know. Anyway, I finished up in the Middle East and we got demobbed from there back to England when the time was up.
AP: So what were you doing in the Middle East? What sort of work were you doing?
TK: Training parachutists.
AP: Training parachutists. Parachute jumping.
TK: Yeah. It was the 6th Airborne Division.
AP: Wow.
TK: And we were attached to them. Putting them through the drills and going up with them and dispatching them. Then jumping out yourself, you know. Yeah.
AP: That would have been pretty cool.
TK: Yeah.
AP: That would have been great fun.
TK: The first day we got there one went straight in.
AP: Oh really?
TK: The ‘Chute never opened. Straight in. I thought this is a good start [laughs]
AP: Wow. That still happens occasionally, sadly. Wow. Ok. So you got demobbed from there and then went back. Went back to England. There was something I wanted to ask. Oh yeah. So when the war ended, so you transferred to a different squadron and you were doing counter measure stuff you said. Like radio counter measure stuff.
TK: Yeah.
AP: Which that would have been probably fairly boring after the —
TK: Yeah.
AP: Supply drops, I imagine.
TK: Yeah. It was boring.
AP: So, ok and then you said you finished your tour and I think, I think I saw forty trips in total did I? Am I right? Is there forty operations in your —
TK: Forty.
AP: Yeah. Ok. And then obviously you went, you went off to the draughting office at that point. When you heard that the war had finished, what happened when the war finished? How did you, what do you remember?
TK: Well, I was in the, I was in the Maintenance Unit then. And —
AP: Where was that?
TK: Oh, Sealand. Sealand. That was. It was near, near Chester.
AP: Ok.
TK: On the west coast. Yeah. I remember when the war finished I remember I had a few beers of course, and I remember standing up on a table and singing [laughs]
AP: What were you singing?
TK: I don’t remember.
AP: You can’t remember. Damn [laughs] I was hoping for a rendition. No worries. Ok. So the war finished. Then you got the parachute jumping. Doing that. Got demobbed. What happened next?
TK: I went back to finish an apprenticeship.
AP: Back to the railways.
TK: In the railways. Yeah.
AP: Really.
TK: And being along with Aussies and hearing all about the place I thought [pause] when I got back to Scotland the first job I got, that was in February, I think. Yeah. February. The middle of the winter, and the first job I got was shovelling snow away from the front door. So I thought there has got to be something better than this. So I applied for Australia and here I am.
AP: So that was in, in the late ‘40s.
TK: Yeah. That was 1950.
AP: 1950.
TK: 1950 and, yeah 1950, and I’ve come out to my skipper. He was running a pub away up in Queensland. In Claremont. You know Claremont at all?
AP: No. Not, I know it’s in Queensland but that’s about it.
TK: Inland a bit.
AP: Yeah.
TK: And anyway his wife was in Brisbane. We sailed all the way to Brisbane. His wife was in Brisbane doing some business for the, for the pub, and she took me up to Claremont. We flew up in a DC3. I remember that. And then I forget where we stopped, but we stopped then because on a train there’s a three foot six inch gauge train to Emerald. And then Hugh was there with his big old Hudson, and out to Claremont and there wasn’t any roads. It just seemed like just driving through the bush, you know [laughs] And I spent a few days there and then I thought I’ve got to start earning a living so I came back to Brisbane. The first job I got was the Queensland Metal Windows and I was marking off for the machinist to cut the metal. And then I finished up with the, in [unclear] making the, on maintenance. Maintenance of the factory. Yeah. [unclear] I played with the local soccer team up there.
AP: That would have been —
TK: And that’s where I met my wife. Met my Waterloo [laughs]
AP: In Brisbane.
TK: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. And then you obviously came to Sydney at some point.
TK: Yeah. Well, she was a Sydney girl. I met her at Brisbane, and I followed her down. I was smitten [laughs] She’s been gone ten years now.
AP: Really?
TK: Yeah. There she is. She’s up there.
AP: Oh yes. Yeah. Oh lovely. And you’ve been in Mona Vale, Sydney ever since. Did you stay working in engineering?
TK: We stayed there. I met her actually at a hostel.
AP: Oh really?
TK: It was a, it wasn’t a migrant hostel. It was a youth hostel and there was as many Aussies in there as anybody else and thirty bob a week. Full board. Marvellous [laughs] Right. So I worked in Booloumba, and the hostel was in Booloumba, and I played for Booloumba Rangers soccer team. So I was a real Booloumba guy. Right on the river there.
AP: Did you, did you go back to Scotland much?
TK: Yeah. I went back two or three times. I won’t be going back any more. In fact, I’m not allowed to fly.
AP: Oh really?
TK: On account of this.
AP: There you go.
TK: So, I’ve had a pretty good life. Pretty good. I chopped and changed a bit. When I came down to Sydney I got a job with the Shell Oil Company on curbside pumps. Servicing them. A couple of jobs and then I changed over. I wanted to get out on the road and that. I finished up with Turner’s. Made washing machines and lawn mowers. I was on the road servicing them. I’ve spent all my life fixing things, you know and the last twenty two years I worked for Xerox. Rank Xerox on the copying machines. I was there for twenty two years.
AP: How did you find readjusting to civilian life after your military service? After Air Force service.
TK: Oh, pretty good. Pretty easy. It was all an adventure really. So here we are. This is, we moved here in [pause] I had this house built in 1986 so I’ve been here over thirty years now. Too big but I like it. I don’t fancy going to a village, you know.
AP: No. No.
TK: What would I do with all this stuff anyway?
AP: And I guess as my final question really, for you how is Bomber Command remembered? Bomber Command in general and your part.
TK: How is it remembered?
AP: Yeah. And how do you want to see it remembered?
TK: Always crops up somewhere or other, you know. You never forget. Yeah. It’s always been a big part of my life really, you know being an ex-serviceman. And I was, I was the secretary of the RAF Association for years and the treasurer. But I eventually gave that up and joined the Bomber Command Association. And so that’s where I’ve been since.
AP: What, what legacy do you think Bomber Command has left?
TK: What legacy?
AP: What’s the legacy? Yeah.
TK: Just a mass of great people. Great, great guys, you know. Wonderful to be a part of a crew. They’re all dead now. All of them. The last one I was in touch with was the wireless operator. He lived out at Ulladulla, and he lived in a one room place in a, in a village and they used to put his guests up in a motel which was next door. That was great. So I went down there a few times with my son and then I rang up. I used to ring him up but and I couldn’t get any answer one day. Anyway, I finally got through to the office and I said, ‘I’m trying to contact Dave Hughes.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘He passed away.’ So, Dave, he was the last one. He’s gone. Very sad. Very clever fellow. Very clever. So there we are.
AP: That’s about it. Thank you very much. [unclear] next time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tommy Knox
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKnoxT190626, PKnoxT1901, PKnoxT1902, PKnoxT1903
Format
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00:46:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Nuremberg
Australia
Queensland--Brisbane
Queensland
Description
An account of the resource
Tommy Knox, born in 1924, grew up in northern Glasgow and volunteered at the earliest age of seventeen and one quarter. He then trained in Wales and Devon and flew Stirlings. Tommy was posted to RAF Stradishall for his Heavy Conversion Unit, meeting his crew which consisted of two Australians, two Canadians and two Englishmen. Tommy believed he was lucky for choosing the Stirlings, despite including having to hand-crank the landing gear: if he had chosen Lancasters it would be unlikely for him to be here today. He then recalled being moved from his flight group the day before a Nuremberg operation, in which 96 aircraft were lost. Tommy joined 149 Squadron and was transferred to RAF Lakenheath and later to RAF Mildenhall. Taking part in supply drops and bombings, Tommy recalled numerous stories of his crew, including one of his navigator falling asleep and he waking him up. Tommy then joined 199 Squadron, overseeing radio disruption operations. When the War ended, he volunteered to travel to the Middle East, completing 40 operations in total before being demobilised. Post-war, he returned to his engineering apprenticeship, before moving to Sydney when he met his wife. Tommy recounts the war as a big adventure and states that Bomber Command was a big part of his life, being the secretary and treasurer of the RAF Association for several years, before joining the Bomber Command Association. He states that the legacy of Bomber Command is positive.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
149 Squadron
199 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Mildenhall
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1356/22525/PCoombesHS2043.2.jpg
eea433f2d4d40119b197388673169478
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1356/22525/ACoombesDC200306.2.mp3
a287977d72c3f7937dae30d1a2487d18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Coombes, Horace
Horace S Coombes
H S Coombes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Group Captain Claive Coombes about his father Squadron Leader Horace 'Ken' Coombes (1921, 148799 Royal Air Force).
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Clive Coombes and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-01-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Coombes, HS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Clive Coombs. The interview is taking place at Clive’s home in Edinburgh, Scotland on the 6th of March 2020. Clive, maybe we could start if you could tell us a little about your father’s life before the war.
CC: My father was born in Birkenhead in 1921. Went to, went to the local school which was the same one that John Lennon ended up going to a few weeks afterwards. They, the family lived in Garston in Liverpool, and my grandfather was a merchant seaman. My grandmother was obviously what’s the official term now, a homemaker? She had six kids that survived, and a couple that didn’t. My father was the eldest and he, following his secondary education joined the Mersey Dock Board with his brother, Alf. And in 1942, if my memory serves he decided that notwithstanding being in a protected employment that he would join up and he joined the RAF as a pilot, and went to training in America. Did all his training at, in Alabama and Florida as a sergeant pilot. Returned to the United Kingdom in ’43. Was immediately commissioned on a VRT commission as a flight lieutenant and joined 582 Squadron Pathfinder Force straight away.
JS: Ok. So —
CC: So that’s his career prior to, you know that takes him up to his first operational mission with 582.
JS: Ok. Spinning a bit in time your, your uncle also has a connection with Bomber Command. Can you, can you tell us a little about him?
CC: Yeah. This is, this is on the maternal side and my Uncle Jack, Jack Hanne or John Henry Hanne was from Llandrindod Wells in, in Mid-Wales but interestingly of German extraction. And he was the husband of my mother’s sister Nancy Vera Morgan as she eventually died, but it was actually Nancy Vera Guildford then. She married Jack and Jack was in the Air Force when they married. He’d actually joined very early. ’34 ’35. Served in Iraq, and was originally a mechanic. I’m not sure if it, I’m not sure exactly what his official trade was but he was a mechanic and having been a boy entrant, so he really was, you know a very young joiner and then was, then converted to pilot and ended up flying in Iraq on 13 Squadron if again memory serves. Came back to UK prior to the war. Still flying. Converted to Blenheims, flew some very early missions in the war and was killed on the 10th of January 1940 flying a 109 Squadron Blenheim from Wattisham on an air raid over Germany. And he was shot down by a Messerschmitt and crashed in the, in the North Sea. So one of the very early casualties and interestingly the first casualty of World War Two from Radnorshire, in Wales. He’s commemorated both at Runnymede, at the IBCC and on his family, sorry, and on the War Memorial in Llandrindod Wells and a couple of months ago on the 10th of January 2020 my wife and I went down and laid a wreath. Sorry.
JS: No. You’re ok. You’re ok —
CC: So, clearly I never knew Jack but I’ve got his medals, I’ve got a lot of his history and I’m quite proud of him.
JS: As you would be. As you would be.
CC: Yeah. Holder of the, he’s got his, probably one of the few of Aircrew Europe Crosses so he’s got the Star. He gave a lot to the Air Force, you know. Joined in ’35 and trained right through and I’ve got some wonderful photographs of his time as a trainer. As an airman. You know. Some wonderful pictures of air crashes and things like that. And then his time in Iraq as well. What I don’t have sadly is any details of his, of his flying time. I don’t have his logbook. I’ve no idea where that went. And strangely, you know Jack is, I mean he died what twenty years before I was born. I think the sad part is that Nancy, my aunt was pregnant when he was killed, and she gave birth to Jacqueline who, who survived for two days. And that was ultimately the only child that Nancy ever had. She remarried a stoker from HMS Belfast interestingly, and I obviously knew him as my uncle. Predominantly not Jack. And he died very suddenly many, many years ago. Strangely at a funeral for one of his friends. He died in the church at the funeral which was a bit tragic.
JS: Yeah.
CC: But Nancy was always I think actually very much in love with Jack and I’ve got some wonderful poetry written by Jack to Nancy and it’s, it’s quite evocative the memories that go with that. So I probably have a strangely close relationship with Jack albeit that he’d been dead for twenty years before, before I was born but I followed it up and, yeah he did some very good things. He did some very good things and sadly lost his life very early in the war.
JS: Early on.
CC: I hope he would have probably gone on to do a few more things but you know it’s, it’s life and death in that environment. But it was a privilege to do the [unclear] which garnered quite a lot of publicity in Wales. It made the front page of three local papers which I was quite surprised about, but, but quite nice. Quite nice. So his legacy lives on and, you know strangely Runnymede and IBCC, it’s nice to have his name on both and I’ve seen both and I’ve visited both and paid my respects there as well. So, no it’s good. Very good.
JS: The memorialisation thing obviously means a lot to you.
CC: Yeah. I think [pause] I guess it’s probably because, you know I’m very proud of what I did. I did thirty seven years in the Air Force. Got to a pretty senior rank. Been decorated. But there’s no legacy because I have no children. I was an only child and when I die my family name dies and so memorialisation as you get older has become slightly more, slightly more relevant I think and I don’t know what to do to commemorate that. I think, you know one of the things I am going to do is contribute to the ribbon at IBCC. And probably ultimately I would be very surprised if the IBCC didn’t benefit from a considerable legacy from the Coombes family. If there’s only some way of the Coombes family, when I say Coombes family, me and my wife of, of memorialising my father, my uncle, and you know in a, could I say entirely altruistic way myself as well because you know I believe that you know over thirty seven years I’ve, I had a pretty good career. I broke a few, a few glass ceilings in what I ended up doing and it would be nice if that was remembered. But there’s, there’s very little legacy in terms of human kind that will remember that because you know I have a half-brother and a half sister who were dad’s kids but they have they have, they have no kids and they’re much older than me. I have no kids. My wife’s sister has one child and they’ve gone different, different, different line. And so there’s nothing, you know. When Coombes, Coombes, this one dies, Coombes name dies which is really sad. So I just feel as I’ve, you know just hit sixty I think I need to do something about it. And this is probably a way of doing it so also —
JS: But, but there is a, the interesting part in this is, if you like long, very long ribbon of service through the RAF from, from your uncle through your father, through yourself.
CC: Yeah. I mean, I think if we, if we look at it between 1942 and 2014 there was only fifteen months that either my father or I were not serving because at the end of the war dad was demobbed. Went back to the Mersey Dock Board, and albeit that I never actually got around to asking him I’m not sure whether it was him who got fed up with the Mersey Dock Board or whether it was the RAF needed QFIs, but he was, he was dragged back in after about fifteen months on a, on a full term normal commission, and re-joined the Air Force as a flight lieutenant and was posted immediately as a qualified flying instructor. And then when he retired it was only a matter of months between him retiring and me joining. So, I think, you know we could probably stretch it to maybe eighteen, twenty months between early 1942 and late 2014 that there wasn’t either my dad or me in the Air Force which, which is interesting. If you then stretch it further back you know with Jack as a family connection, you know it goes back to sort of 1934, 1935. That, that is, you know that is quite a long time serving for three people alone and bearing in mind that Jack’s service was brought, brought to a very sharp end after only five years.
JS: Yeah.
CC: Having been killed. But dad did a full career. Retired at fifty five as a squadron leader. And I did a full career, thirty seven and a half years retiring in 2014 as a group captain. So, you know it’s, it’s something that we’ve given to blue suits. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
CC: I’m proud of —
JS: Yeah. Absolutely. You, you spoke earlier about your, your dad doing the training in the US which was very common.
CC: Yeah.
JS: And then coming back and going on a squadron. So, with the [pause] how, what sort of operations was he doing then?
CC: Well, it’s, it’s strange that I mean looking in his logbooks which I’m still privileged to have he, he went, his first operational squadron was a Pathfinder Squadron which I think was probably quite unusual because obviously they, they, you know Don Bennett indicated that what he wanted was the best of the best for the Pathfinder Force and 8 Group. But I’ve no idea why dad went on to that. I’m looking at his logbook, looking at his flight assessments from Gunther Field and various bits and pieces. And interestingly I used to serve in the States and I actually went to Gunther Field fifty years virtually to the day that he graduated from there. Which was purely serendipity but I was, I actually visited the base on duty that, very close to fifty years. But I didn’t know that until I checked it. So he was assessed as above the average in pretty much everything so one would assume that he went back and was sent straight to 582. I go through his, his logbooks and they are standard bombing missions, you know, full time. Dusseldorf on the Ruhr. And they were, you know genuine front line Pathfinder operations. Subsequent to that 582 at Little Staughton, he then transferred to 626 Squadron at Wickenby. Still Pathfinder Force, with the same crew which I have no idea why they, why they transferred squadrons. I know that they used to do that and you know maybe 582’s losses were not high whereas 626’s were and they just transferred crews to 626. But he had the same crew throughout pretty much. One Brit, a couple of Aussies and a Canadian. I don’t know where the others were from. I could check, I think. But, but he flew through. He did twenty four, twenty five missions. I only ever once asked him why he didn’t do the thirty or how he felt not having got to thirty and to get his automatic DFC, and his quote to me was, ‘Had I son, you may not be, you may not have been here.’ But I look at what happened after that, and you know now things come out. You don’t know what, you don’t know the true meaning of it all but he went off to be a test pilot and whether that was because he was suffering from what we now know as post-traumatic stress disorder or whether they needed highly skilled pilots to be test pilots I have no idea. But you look at some of the stuff that he did and it’s quite remarkable, you know. I mean, one day in his logbook he’s got I think Lancaster, Spitfire, Hurricane, Wellington, Mosquito. Pretty much on the same day. If not the same day sort of three days. And you go wow. Hang on a minute. What aircraft am I in today? You know it’s quite remarkable to do that. And yet you talk to friends of mine who I’ve served with over thirty seven years and, you know they have gone through careers commanding squadrons only ever having flown a Bulldog, a Jet Provost and a Tornado. Or a Hawk and a Tornado so you had four types of aircraft. He had five in two days. So, remarkable different world. I guess, I suppose when again I haven’t checked the dates entirely it could well have been that operations had pretty much finished. Formal operations had finished. I know, having checked his logbook very recently that he flew on Op Manna.
JS: Yeah.
CC: So that probably would indicate that formal operations over Germany had ceased by that time. Hence the reason he didn’t do the thirty. But quite surprising Manna didn’t count as an operational sortie. So, you know, that’s, that’s probably why. I don’t know but —
JS: Although, it wasn’t, it wasn’t without it’s dangers either you know.
CC: Correct. Absolutely right.
JS: Many, many aircrew I’ve spoken to flew on Operation Manna and they all talk about that doubt in their minds as to whether they were likely to be shot at.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
CC: You know.
JS: So, you know he went off and did that and then he did, he flew Mosquitoes in the PRU role before he was demobbed. And then when he re-joined QFI flying Vampires and Meteors from Shawbury, where he met my mum having divorced from his first wife. So yeah, an interesting career and then ended up for the [unclear] he converted to, to what we now call, is it aircrew spine or something like that? But he was spec aircrew but in those days you had to be dual qualified, so he was an air traffic controller as well and on his down, on his ground tours he was deputy SATCO at Wildenrath in the late ‘50s. And then in the early 70s was SATCO at Lyneham. So, you know that must have been an interesting time when you’ve got a SATCO with, with two wings. And then he went back to flying and finished as ops officer on, his last flying tour was ops officer on 10 Squadron. VC10s. So, you know, he had a pretty varied career in, in what he actually did. So it was, there’s lots of flying hours. There’s forty seven different types of aircraft in his logbook which is quite remarkable really when you think about it.
JS: And a very thick logbook I’m sure.
CC: Five of them.
JS: Five [laughs]
CC: Yeah. Five of them. Five different ones. Yeah. So, yeah pretty much ranging from sort of link trainer through to Harvard, through to Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster, Wellington, Mosquito.
JS: Yeah.
CC: A Varsity. VC10.
JS: Yeah. That’s not a logbook. That’s a library.
CC: Yes. It is a library. That’s what it is actually.
JS: Very much. Very much.
CC: It’s a very, you know they are quite important documents to me to see what he did. So, yeah. It’s very interesting.
JS: Yeah. Very good. There’s, there’s quite a lot of discussion about how Bomber Command were viewed after the war. Let’s say, sort of just after the war and that part after that. Did, did you dad ever, ever talk about that or give a view about it or —
CC: Not, not to me. And it’s, I think it might be indicative that it probably happened quite a lot that these guys didn’t actually talk about it. Sadly, my dad passed away in 1990 at the age of sixty eight which you think is not necessarily fair given what, what he went through during the war. You know, by that stage I had joined and strangely I was told what must have been two weeks after my dad died that I’d just been promoted to squadron leader and that would have been nice for him to know.
JS: Yeah.
CC: But, you know c’est la vie. Time is everything. So he never really spoke to me about, about that. I did ask him once when I was younger. I was doing a bit of research and clearly, you know his career influenced me quite markedly having, you know literally joined months after he, he retired. I realised at that stage that the Pathfinders were entitled to wear the albatross on their, on their number one jacket, left breast pocket and I asked dad why he didn’t wear his Pathfinder brevet because my understanding was that, you know once a Pathfinder always a Pathfinder and you could continue to wear it for the rest of your career. And he sort of passed it off saying that ‘Well, you know it’s not de rigueur anymore, and nobody wears it.’ And, ‘Well, probably they don’t wear it any more dad is because there aren’t many Pathfinders left.’ And he never really made comment about that. He always wore his medals with pride but it was just the standard four, you know ‘39/45 Star, France and Germany and the other two. The War and Victory or War and Defence. And sadly, stupidly I’ve never as yet applied for his Bomber Command clasp which I frankly should do I must confess. But he never really commented on it. I think he was amongst a crowd of people who were obviously Bomber Command pilots themselves in his QFI days at CFS but I still think he was quite proud of what he did albeit with the fact that he knew that, that flying over Germany however high dropping bombs was going to kill people. But no. He never really spoke about it. I think from my own personal perspective I, I do wish Bomber Command had had more recognition but it goes down to what we, what we as military guys and girls do. You know. We, we do what we’re told to do. It’s not, it’s not for us to question the policies. It’s for us to deliver what’s required. And, you know, you can extrapolate that argument straight up you know to the Falklands and the Gulf War One, Gulf War Two, the whole lot. You know. Was it the right thing to do? Did Saddam Hussain have WMD we don’t know. Still think there’s no proof but the government made the call. You go do it. Ours is not to reason why but ours just get on with it because that’s our job and I think that’s the way dad would have looked at it as well. He, I sense but only sense, I’ve no evidence that he found it quite strange in 1958/59 to be serving in Germany and living in Dusseldorf which is where we did live knowing that only a matter of years previous to that he’d been over it at thirty five thousand feet dropping two thousand pound bombs. That I think was slighty odd as far as he was concerned. And I honestly don’t think they particularly enjoyed their tour, my mum and dad particularly enjoyed their tour in Germany and I think they were quite keen to get home. And when I look at it they only did eighteen months in Germany and during the period I was born there but, but still not the happiest days of dad’s career probably because there was the subliminal issue of, you know, I’ve been here before but at a different height and with a different mission. So, but no he never formally said. I think what is sad, that he never saw the recognition that has now finally come to Bomber Command in terms of the Memorial and in terms of the IBCC. I think he would have been quite proud of that, and I think he would have been very pleased to have attended either the opening of the Bomber Command Memorial or the IBCC had he still been alive. Again, c’est la vie. The way things go.
JS: Yeah.
CC: As for Jack I can’t answer the question. I have no idea.
JS: Yeah.
CC: My aunt kept many, many clippings of, you know what he did because he was on one of the very early raids where a squadron commander got a DSO. They were presented to the King as a result of that because it really was one of the, it was a late 1939, very early air raid. And, and I think that’s in the days where you know before we were dropping, carpet bombing. And, and I think Nancy was very proud of Jack as well but again you know clearly I don’t know what he would have felt about it. Probably slightly stranger given that his extraction was German, you know. One generation German. So, I mean his father was a hotelier in Germany. So, you know, came over prior to the war so I think he would have felt quite strange about it.
JS: Yeah.
CC: But he was staunchly British. I understand that. And staunchly Welsh as well, strangely. So yeah, a different world. I don’t know. I can’t answer all the questions.
JS: That’s alright.
CC: Haven’t talked about it for a long time.
JS: That’s interesting. That’s interesting [pause] Because your dad served in the RAF for —
CC: Thirty five.
JS: That period after —
CC: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And to a certain extent as you’ve mentioned earlier that you were born abroad when your dad was in service. Then, then at the end of the day, that thing, you’d been embedded for the, within the RAF a lot longer than you served in the RAF.
CC: Oh yeah.
JS: I suppose that was the, the thing is do you think it was always likely that you would join?
CC: Yeah. I think it probably, I think it probably was. I mean, I guess I vividly remember at school I mean I was fortunate I got a, I won an academic scholarship to an English Public School and it was a case of, ‘Well, Coombes, what are you going to do?’ And I think, that’s from my careers master and I said, ‘Well, I probably will join the Air Force, sir.’ And he said, ‘Right.’ and that was a tick. That’s one solved. That’s one less issue to worry about.
JS: Conversation over.
CC: Yes. You know, so I didn’t trouble my careers master for very long and I remember I, I went for a university scholarship or a university cadetship and didn’t get it, but was offered an immediate place straight from school and which I accepted. So literally after finishing school in the July I joined in the September of 1978. And clearly knowing I had a job I didn’t do particularly well at A level, and very much enjoyed my last year at school and then joined up straight away and actually have no regrets about that because subsequent to that the training I’ve done, you know I’ve got my, I’ve got my masters level education through the Australian Air Force having served out there on exchange. And yeah it was probably the easy option for me but I have absolutely no regrets. I mean, I think if I do have one regret it’s that my eyesight wasn’t good enough to, to allow me to be aircrew so I became a personnel support officer. But in so doing have had a very, very varied career. Done an awful lot of jobs, served pretty much all over the world and, and enjoyed my time. I guess if I were to be held down and pinned to the wall saying, ‘Do you regret not being a pilot?’ The answer is, ‘Hell yes.’ Because I know I had the aptitude and I proved, you know I went through Aircrew Selection Centre, and had pilot aptitude but sadly couldn’t see, and and that’s probably a regret. But not withstanding that I served in some great places. Had I been air crew I don’t think I would have been as good as my dad. I probably would have been a journeyman pilot flying maybe Hercs or VC10s around the world. Which would have been a great time. I don’t think I would have been good enough to go fast jet albeit that in my career I have fortunately managed to log about three hundred hours on fast jets because I’ve got some very good friends and I had a wonderful time. But I have no regrets being ground branch officer because you know what I did in the end of my career particularly, the last five years I did jobs that were aircrew jobs previously and ended up managing to convince those that needed convincing that actually a ground branch officer could undertake these jobs satisfactory. And I think, you know irony of ironies I ended up, my penultimate tour was in Germany as the deputy commander of the Rhine and European Support Group based at Rheindahlen, and part of my area of command was the former RAF Wegberg site where I was born. And so I ended up actually being the garrison commander of the garrison on which the hospital that I was born in resided. So it was a bit, that was a bit spooky but, but also quite oh wow you know how the wheel turns. So, you know no regrets about that. And I know full well had I been aircrew I’d never have done that so that little thing sort of comes, comes to pass. So yeah. Interesting. An interesting career for me but very much influenced by what dad did and sadly, you know I’d only been serving for twelve years when dad passed away so it would have been nice if he’d still been around to see me go, you know a couple of ranks above what he did, doing things that he never did. But, but there you go. That’s life. You make, you make your career choices as he did.
JS: Well. Yes. But I’m, I’m sure he knew that your career was on the right track.
CC: Well, one would hope so.
JS: You know. I think in —
CC: I do remember my second, third tour was I was the ADC to the air officer commanding in Cyprus and mum and dad came out to, to Cyprus for, for a holiday and they were invited kindly by the, by the AOC to come and have dinner and dad said to me afterwards, he said, ‘Oh, you know, the boss thinks you’re ok. He thinks you’ll probably make wing commander.’ I thought that wasn’t bad given I was a flying officer so that was, that’s ok. And, and to achieve one more than that was a great, was a great privilege, so that, that was interesting. He, he was quite good. I do remember that quite vividly. He thinks you might make wing commander. Well, thanks. That’s great.
JS: That’s good. You, you spoke earlier about Memorials.
CC: Yeah.
JS: Which was interesting. How, how important do you think memorialisation is to the RAF as a whole and also to yourself personally? I think we touched on that sort of personal thing earlier —
CC: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: But it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as a, as a recent serving officer. What, what you think the view in the RAF is on that?
CC: Well, its again interesting. I mean, I joined the Air Force in ‘78 when there were a hundred and [unclear] thousand, a hundred and twenty something thousand people in the Air Force. I, I left in 2014 when there were just a smidge over thirty thousand. Ok. Roles change. Technology changes and you don’t, you know you don’t have eight man crews on Shackletons, and six man crews on Hercules and you know it comes down to single crew aircraft. But I think sadly, you know this sounds like a really crusty old boy talking the Air Force was not, not the same when I left it as it was when I joined it, and clearly that’s, that’s obvious. But I still, I think that that when I joined it in 1978 it was a career. I think sadly now for most people who join the Air Force it’s a job. And that’s why I hope that, that memorialisation of some kind in whatever form is is continued and indeed improved because these, these things can’t be forgotten. I think, you know the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park is very special. I think the IBCC is a wonderful set up, and having visited it very recently for the first time I am hugely impressed. I’d like to see other things go in there. I’d like to be able to help with that. It’s a long way from Edinburgh to there and you know that but things like the RAF Club remain very special, you know. The memories that are in the RAF Club are absolutely amazing. And Runnymede still takes my breath away. We can’t forget.
JS: Yeah.
CC: You know, we did very well at RAF 100. And I was, I re-joined for a year for RAF 100 as a reservist and did, did a job up here, predominantly with the Tattoo. And it was nice to come back in. I think, I think to come back in when you’re fifty nine years old is quite strange and you know you’re dealing with a lot of young people who have a different ethos to you. And bearing in mind that I spent my last eight years of service, three of them in Germany commanding, effectively commanding an army garrison and five years, my last five years working for the Foreign Office overseas in South East Asia where you know you’re just going home when, when the Ministry of Defence comes to work. I really did notice a sea change when I actually re-joined the Royal Air Force having been out of it effectively for a decade and it wasn’t the same. There was a lot of self-interest, and I know that what we tried to achieve in RAF 100 was, was would have been impossible had it not been for reservists and volunteer reserves and part time reserve service people. Which is quite sad given that you would expect to be able to do what you needed to do with the regular people. Those who were actually serving. So, you know we had a big success with RAF 100 but by jingo if it hadn’t have been for the people who’d, you know served before and come back in as reservist there’s absolutely no way we would have achieved it. I do remember the words of the then Chief of the Air Staff Steve Hillier saying that, you know, ‘It’s a privilege to be the CAS at the RAF 100 but all I’m doing is laying a future for my successors, successors successor,’ blah blah blah, ‘Who will be CAS at RAF 200.’ I just wonder how big the RAF at two hundred will be. Not very big I don’t think. And whilst I won’t be here and none of my progeny will be here I do wonder what it will be like. I’ve got a horrible feeling being probably glass half empty on this one that it will be the Defence Forces of The United Kingdom all wearing green uniform. I don’t know. We’ll see. But you can’t take away what’s there. IBCC is there. Runnymede is there. Other memorials are there. Long may it continue as far as I’m concerned and anything I can do to assist with the memorialisation of that then I will continue to do that, and this is a first step for me. And I’m pleased to be able to contribute. And hopefully sometime in, you know RAF 200 somebody might listen to this and say, ‘Jeez, who was that old boy talking?’ We shall see.
JS: Clive, thank you very much.
CC: My great pleasure.
JS: That’s been fascinating. Thank you.
CC: Thanks very much indeed, Jim. I hope it gets somewhere.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Clive Coombes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
James Sheach
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-03-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ACoombesDC200306, PCoombesHS2043
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:37:09 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Clive Coombes grew up on Royal Air Force stations, eventually joining and serving for 37 years before retiring in 2014. During this time, he served across the globe, including in Australia and Germany, as a ground branch officer. Clive outlines his father’s and uncle’s service, as well as his own. His uncle, was born in Llandrindod, Wales and joined the Royal Air Force in either 1934 or 1935, becoming a pilot and serving in Iraq before returning to Great Britain and serving in the Second World War. Originally flying Blenheims, Jack was shot down and killed on the 10 January 1940 flying an operation for 109 Squadron. Whilst Jack did not serve long within the Second World War, Clive retains a large amount of information pertaining to his service, including his logbook and a number of poems sent to Clive’s Aunt. Born in Burking Head, his father Horace 'Ken' Coombes joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 as a pilot, training in Alabama and Florida, before returning in 1943. His first posting was to the 582 Squadron at RAF Little Staughton, flying Pathfinder operations over Dusseldorf and the Ruhr, amongst others. He was eventually moved to 626 Squadron at RAF Wickemby. Throughout his service, Clive’s father flew Lancasters, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mosquitoes and Wellingtons. After flying on Operation Manna, he was decommissioned and reenlisted soon after as instructor, later becoming an air traffic controller and a reconnaissance flyer, flying Meteors and Vampires at RAF Shawbury. Following his retirement in 1977, Clive recalls his father refusing to mention his opinion on the view of Bomber Command following the war. Clive wishes that Bomber Command would receive more recognition, especially through the efforts of the IBCC and Runnymede Air Forces Memorial.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany
Alabama
Australia
Florida
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Netherlands
United States
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-01-10
1942
1943
1977
109 Squadron
582 Squadron
626 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
Hurricane
killed in action
Lancaster
Meteor
Mosquito
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Shawbury
RAF Wickenby
Spitfire
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23705/PEdgarAG19010036.1.jpg
12bf36cbbbb86a56c14e71efb7d67537
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edgar, Alfred George
Edgar, A G
Description
An account of the resource
83 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Alfred George 'Allan' Edgar DFC (b. 1922, 172180 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a pilot with 49 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pip Harrison and Sally Shawcross nee Edgar, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
2019-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edgar, AG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Industrial complex to the south of Lincoln
Description
An account of the resource
An oblique aerial photograph of a large industrial complex to the south of the city of Lincoln. The industrial area to the top of the photograph became known as New Boultham, whereas the buildings in the centre, a mix of industrial and residential, were known as Boiler Works. The River Witham can be seen flowing through the centre of this photograph. A number of bridges appear, including Firth Road and Rope Walk, crossing over the River Witham, allowing access to the industrial area and the train lines to the top. To the bottom of the photograph, residential areas can be seen. To the far-right side of the photograph, the Foss Dyke flows to the Brayford Pool. Train lines stretch across the centre-right leading to Lincoln Central Station or Midland Station fit with a coal loading station with a turntable. Boultham Avenue can be seen to the bottom left of the photograph, turning under the trainline at the centre-left. The Crown Mill building can be seen at the bottom of the photograph.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PEdgarAG19010036
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
aerial photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1375/23706/PEdgarAG19010037.2.jpg
f67aa47f0fdb9b0a82b97968b0edbbaa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edgar, Alfred George
Edgar, A G
Description
An account of the resource
83 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer Alfred George 'Allan' Edgar DFC (b. 1922, 172180 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a pilot with 49 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Pip Harrison and Sally Shawcross nee Edgar, and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-04
2019-10-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edgar, AG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lincoln Cathedral and the city
Description
An account of the resource
An aerial oblique view of Lincoln Cathedral and the city. St.Giles school and the residential areas surrounding it can be seen to the left of the photograph. Lincoln Cathedral and Castle are visible in the direct centre, with Lincoln Crown Court being viewable. The Westgate Water Tower can be seen just to the left of the courthouse. To the right of the photograph is West Common residential area. Long Leys Road splits the bottom areas in half, consisting of mostly agricultural space with a pond and trenches.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PEdgarAG19010037
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincoln
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
aerial photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1765/30746/ELayneAJLayneWH441116-0001.1.jpg
ea5946b82e9ac69a940332c2a3488ea6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1765/30746/ELayneAJLayneWH441116-0002.1.jpg
a8301027cdfe44c1685315e51e56dcf9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Layne, Wally
Walter Henry Layne
W H Layne
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Layne, WH
Description
An account of the resource
100 items. The collection concerns Walter 'Wally' Layne (b. 1916, 963012, 40348 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, prisoner of war diary, personal and official correspondence and photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 97 Squadron and became a prisoner of war after being shot down.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by D Layne and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Date: Thursday, November 16/44
Hello darling - I’m actually answering a letter, as I received a long awaited one today after a period of practically three months without. I am looking forward to hearing again, as you mentioned you were moving once more. When I know where you are I have some photographs to send of David. He has two bottom teeth and has more coming through and consequently is rather fretful. I have bought him some white woollen helmets, and he certainly does look good in them – he has such a cute little face. I had a letter from Brigg yesterday, Mrs Layne has been talking to a girl whose boy friend has seen and conversed with you. I bought David a high chair yesterday. Ben Twilley called again to see me, he goes back tomorrow. I havent been out today, I’ve had such a lot to do. I feel really tired as I was awake practically all night with David. I rang the shop this morning to let them know I had heard from you. Frank has gone back to Brigg after a lengthy stay at Mablethorpe. I do hope you get your parcels okay - I have sent three in all, but of course am unable to continue, lets hope you wont be there long enough to need them. I was awfully glad to know you have not lost weight. I do so wonder about you dear – you are never out of my thought’s [sic]. There is quite a possibility we shall be seeing Mick Moore – he is near Auntie Emmie’s home. Its just about a year since he was here. We had a sprinkling of snow yesterday, which fortunately soon disappeared. Shirley has gone to London to see a friend of hers married off to an American. Are you with Robbie now? I heard from Molly yesterday, there was
[page break]
[underlined] Prisoner of War Post [/underlined]
KRIEGSGEFANGENENPOST
SERVICE DES PRISONNIERS DE GUERRE
[post mark]
RANK & NAME: F/O WALTER H. LAYNE D.F.C.
BRITISH PRISONER OF WAR No.: 605 [inserted] LUFT 3 [/inserted]
CAMP NAME & NO: STAMLAGER 357. BLOCK 142.
COUNTRY: DEUTSCHLAND.
FROM
MRS W. H. LAYNE.
97 HARLAXTON ROAD,
GRANTHAM. LINCS.
ENGLAND.
[rubber stamp]
a message too from Helen – she and Dandy wish you a happy Christmas. I must get busy on some gifts, I shant give many this year – one cannot enter into the spirit of things under the circumstances – my heart is with you, and the promise of our future together. I love you and our little son, and once we are united the world will seem alright again. God bless darling. Look after yourself. Love from David.
[missing words]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Wally Layne from his wife
Description
An account of the resource
Catches up with recent mail and family baby matters and other activities. Continues with news of acquaintances.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Joan Layne
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-11-16
Format
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Two sided handwritten prisoner of war letter form
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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ELayneAJLayneWH441116
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Grantham
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Steve Baldwin
Distinguished Flying Cross
prisoner of war
Stalag Luft 3
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1835/33038/PProbynEA17010059-0009.2.jpg
9e6e24dc2405e5e752aaa940100d28a3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Probyn, Ernest Arthur
E A Probyn
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Probyn, EA
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Ernest Arthur Probyn (Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, documents, photographs, diary and a scrapbook. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 61 Squadron.<br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2044">Probyn, Ernest. Scrapbook</a> <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by P Probyn and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Avonmouth
Description
An account of the resource
An aerial vertical photograph of Avonmouth docks. To the bottom of the photograph is the Bristol Channel, stretching up to the right of the photo. Three jetties protrude into the channel. Two tidal locks can be seen, one in the centre and one to the top right. Alongside the central entrance, a boat can be seen in a drydock for repairs. Another boat can be seen to the centre left, in the Oil Basin, as well as a smaller boat to the far-left. Four other boats of various sizes can be seen to the right of the port, with another four to the top left, in the Eastern Arm. Oil storage tanks, extensive rail network, and industrial storage spaces, and two barrage balloons are visible, one to the bottom-right of the photo, on a jetty and the other to the top far-left.
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
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PProbynEA17010059-0009
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Conforms To
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Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Bristol
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
aerial photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2051/33408/PJonesJT17050015.2.jpg
33aa2c1cdc50b2831da3edafe0437e1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, JT. Photos
Description
An account of the resource
A collection of 38 photographs of his service in the police and the RAF.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, JT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lincoln
Description
An account of the resource
An aerial vertical photograph of Lincoln, England. Annotated 9 Job 3423 F/5 5/7/44 Jones. Sparse cloud cover. North is towards the bottom of the picture. The centre of the city is to the left of the photograph, showing residential areas. To the top is an industrial area mostly comprising railways and Foss Dyke flows into the Brayford pool from the centre-right. The top right of the photograph shows a railway curving around storage buildings. To the bottom are agricultural spaces, with farmlands compromising the majority of the right side of the photograph.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-07-05
Format
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One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PJonesJT17050015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
aerial photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1390/33462/EOCRAFRecDepDickersonG420519.1.jpg
14808f864271acf1bd1517f8fa0992a9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dickerson, Alfred James
A J Dickerson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dickerson, AJ
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. The collection concerns Sergeant Alfred James Dickerson (930296 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, correspondence, newspaper cutting and photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 106 Squadron and was killed 28 January 1942.<br /><br /> The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Roger Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Alfred Dickerson is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/106155/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Telephone No.: SPRINGWELL (GLOUCESTER) 2407
Telegraphic Address:
RECORDS TELEX GLOUCESTER
RECORD OFFICE,
ROYAL AIR FORCE,
GLOUCESTER
Date: 19th May 1942
Your Ref.: C7/930296
Dear Sir,
With reference to previous correspondence, it is my painful duty to inform you that confirmation has now been received from a German Official List, forwarded by the International Red Cross Committee, that your son, No. 930296 Sergeant Alfred James DICKERSON of No. 106 Squadron, Royal Air Force, was killed in action on the 28th January 1942. His death is therefore presumed, for official purposes, to have occurred on that date. According to further information received, he was buried in Grave No. 70, Section III in the North (Military) Cemetery, Dusseldorf.
Steps will now be taken to dispose of those of his personal effects which are under Royal Air Force control and you will receive a further communication about this in due course.
The Air Council desire me, in conveying this information to you, to express their sympathy and deep regret at your son’s death in his Country’s service.
I am,
Dear Sir,
Your obedient Servant,
(signature)
Air Commodore,
Air Office i/c Records,
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
G. Dickerson, Esq.,
16 Hillside Grove,
Southgate,
London, N.14.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Alfred Dickerson's father from RAF records department
Description
An account of the resource
Informs him that confirmation had been received through the Red Cross that his son was killed in action on 28 January 1942. He was buried in military cemetery in Düsseldorf.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Record Office
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-05-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page typewritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EOCRAFRecDepDickersonG420519
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--London
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-05-19
1942-01-28
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sam Harper-Coulson
106 Squadron
final resting place
killed in action
Red Cross