2
25
149
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/315/Memoro 2232.2.mp3
fdc8ddbb5a85aed3b5dad73bd4b97102
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GK: [part missing in the original file] dann fange ich an mit unser Evakuierung in das Altmühltal zur Schwester meiner Mutter.
Unknown interviewer: Im Jahre?
GK: Im Jahre, ich war drei Jahre alt, dann war das 1942. Da gingen hier die Luftangriffe so stark an eben und des war nicht mehr erträglich vor allem mit kleinen Kindern. Ja gut, dann kamen wir zu der Tante, die wohnte eben in dieser [unclear] Beamtensiedlung und wir haben da zwei kleine Zimmer bekommen mit’m Kanonenofen und [pauses] und hatten aber nur die wichtigsten Sachen dabei den wir sind da eben mit dem Metzgerwagen hinten drauf gefahren und haben nur Bettzeug warscheinlich mitgenommen. Das war natürlich alles sehr beengend nach der Wohnung in München und es ging dann los mit Essenskargheit und meine Mutter war also, da hat sich entwickelt zu einer Organisatorin das war toll den man musste ja da, es gab ja Lebensmittelmarkt übrigens da wurden ja so kleine Abschnitte weggeschnitten und da gabs Zuteilungen, eben Mehl oder Zucker oder was grade vorhanden war. Und es gab einen Kanal mit Apfelbaümen die haben irgend wen dort gehört das weiss ich nicht und wenn Gewitter war da sind wir dann nachts hin und haben die Äpfel hochgehoben, eingesammelt und dann wurde Apfelkompott oder Apfelstrudel gemacht..
UI: Also nur das Fallobst oder auch gepflückt?
GK: Nein das Fallobst. Es wurde dann schon immer schlimmer, den das wurde immer mehr eingeschränkt, die Milch war zugeteilt für Kinder, wie viel wenig und sie war Magermilch hieß das damals. Wir gingen dann fast jeden Tag in den Wald, meine Tante, meine kleine Kusine und ich, und meine Mutter und wir haben Milchkannen mitgenommen, da wurden Beeren reingepflückt, Erdbeeren, Blaubeeren, dann wurden Pilze gesucht und nebenbei musste man die ganzen Tannenzapfen aufheben, die nicht so wie heute sondern die waren sehr rar weil alle Leute Tannenzapfen gesucht haben und so kleine Holzstückchen, und da kamen wir so gegen Mittag nach Hause so mit einen kleinen Rucksack mit Tannenzapfen, Milchkannen mit Beeren, und dann noch Körbchen mit Pilzen und das wurde dann gekocht und die Beeren mit Magermilch angerührt und vermischt und es war eine köstliches Essen. Und dann am Brennholz hat’s auch gemangelt und da wurde meine Mutter immer rabiat, die ist dann tagsüber in den Wald gegangen, hat sich die Baüme angeschaut, hat die nachts umgehackt und wenn’s sehr dunkel war dann ist sie mit meinem Bruder der neun Jahre älter eben war in den Wald und dann haben die die Baüme heimgezogen heimlich und das war natürlich alles verboten aber es blieb nichts anderes übrig. Nur in meiner Erinnerung weil ich ja so klein war alles, es war wunderbar, das Essen hat köstlich geschmeckt, die Ideen die sie hatte, heute verwendet man Fett da hat sie Magermilch verwendet ich weiss gar nicht wie das alles ging aber es war köstlich und mich gewundert dass ich so schöne Erinnerungen habe..
UI: Die Tannenzapfen als Brennholz.
GK: Als Brennholz, ach so die haben wir nicht gegessen.
UI: [unclear]
GK: Ja, dann hat mich gewundert wie das in der Luft lag daß es immer in Munchen viel schöner ist aber es hat mich doch immer ein Bisschen beeinträchtigt weil ich so dazwischen war, ich wusste ich gehörte dort nicht richtig hin und München kannte ich ja eigentlich gar nicht mehr und dann kam die Schulzeit und da habe ich auch gemerkt, ich bin irgendwie so außerhalb, das war nicht direct aber es war doch zu spüren und..
UI: [unclear] ein bisschen.
GK: Genau, die [unclear] ja. Und das war die Zeit noch mit strengen Unterricht, das waren Nonnen, die uns unterrichtet haben, Schwester Theobalda und die Schwester Gerbine und der Herr Benefiziat und der Herr Kaplan und die waren alle sehr eifrig im Strafen verordnen und des hiess Tatzen austeilen mit einem richtigen Weidenstock der so schon biegsam und ich war sehr brav, also ich war da verschont und eben, da gab es eben zwei Mädchen die etwas außerhalb der Norm waren und die waren sehr frech und ich glaub die haben sogar darauf angelegt die Lehrer zu ärgern und die mussten dann immer vortreten und die Hand hinhalten und die normalen Kinder die haben die Hand natürlich zurückgezogen aber diese Mädchen haben ihre Hand ausgestreckt, stolz, haben sich ihre Tatzen abgeholt und sind dann eben zurück, haben ihre Schultasche genommen und sind nach hause und sind tagelang nicht mehr aufgetaucht, denen war es völlig Wurst und den Eltern die wussten das warscheinlich gar nicht und ich hab die bewundert und wie gesagt ich hab dieses ehemalige Mädchen jetzt bei einem Klassentreffen wieder getroffen und die ist einfach toll, die war mutig und ist heute noch, hat ihr Leben gemeistert oder meistert’s immer noch, das find ich sehr schoön, den mutige Menschen sind was wunderbares.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gerlinde Keller
Description
An account of the resource
Gerlinde Keller (b. 1939) was evacuated in 1942 from Munich to the Altmühltal, where she lived with her aunt in a purpose-built settlement. Explains how the intensifying bombings had made the city unsafe for children and how they managed to cope with wartime hardships: gathering mushrooms, wild berries and pine cones to be used as firewood; collecting fallen apples from a nearby orchard to make compote and strudel. Describes how her mother and her older brother went covertly into the forest to cut down trees at night. Emphasises her mother’s creative efforts in coping with the difficult situation and how she enjoyed the food available, for example berries with skimmed milk. Mentions the strange feeling of not belonging to anywhere and remembers the strict atmosphere of a school run by nuns, where pupils were subjected to corporal punishments. Remembers the defiant attitude of two girls, who provoked the teachers and showed a sense of pride in being punished.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:06:41 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#2232
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Munich
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/263/Memoro 555.1.mp3
98fea93c1004a555ad4854856936700c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EG: Also es ist, des letzte Weihnachten da waren die grössten Bombenangriffe. Es war entsetzlich, die Strassen die waren voller Rauch und man ist im Keller gesessen mit grosser Angst weil bei jeder Detonation was war haben wir gedacht, hoffentlich kommt des net noch näher und kommt da ins eigene Haus. Und es war eine Luftgabe unten im Keller Es muss man sich vorstellen da sitzen vielleicht vierzig Menschen von so’m grossen Haus unten auf diesen Holzbänken und da war eine Kranke oide Leute dabei und der Kranke hatt immer wieder mal ein Ton von sich gegeben, hot laut nausch g’schrien weil er [unclear] nimmer mitkriegt das er auf der Holzpritsche ist und seine Frau, das war also auch ‘ne oide Oma, die war neben ihm auf der Holzpritsche und die hatt’s immer g’sagt [unclear] sei’s da still sei still und dann hott’s immer oinen Rosenkranz nach’m anderen gebetet und [unclear] sie haben selber Angst und sie hing an da Mutter und die anderen Kinder a so [unclear] die hingen auch an der Mutter [unclear] wenn dann diese oide Oma da immer heil ihre Mutter Gottes un beten und beten und einen Rosenkrantz nach’m anderen des erheitert und ermuntert ja aa ned und so, also es war a furchtbare Angst in dem Raum drinna wirklich a furchtbare Angst und auf oimoi kracht’s wieder und durch diesen Knall und durch diesen Bombenfall hat’s die Luftgabe da im Keller auf und es kommt a Haufen Schmutz und Dreck und so und aber a etliche Fetzen Papier durch des Luftgabenloch oder und der kleine Junge der steht do und schüttelt sein Mama und sagt ‘Mutti schau mal, schau mal, der Tommy schickt heute Einwickelpapier’. [laughs] alles unten kracht [unclear] diese Spannung, diese Angst, die war gebrochen in den Moment. Also es ist zwar kua Einwickelpapier gekommen aber [laughs] es ist wenigstens so gewesen das man aus’m Keller raushabenkönna es hat zwar wirklich eingeschlagen und wir haben nimmer in unsere Wohnung könna, wir waren total beschädigt aber wie gsagt wir haben in der Konditorei nebendran am Bodn schlafen dürfen und mein Vater der vom ersten Mobilmachungstag an bei der
Unknown interviewer: Wehrmacht
EG: beim [unclear] war ja, der hatt Urlaub bekommen aufgrund dessen das wir totalbeschädigt waren und ist auf einmal dann ist die Schiebetüre aufganga und in unserer größten Not wo wir mehr geweint als wir gelacht haben da steht unser Vater drinnen in der Tür und wir sagen da [unclear] Papa [unclear] und waren glücklich und haben gedacht für uns ist der Krieg vorbei, und wir haben unseren Vater wieder.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Erika Gautsch
Description
An account of the resource
Erika Gautsch (b. 1928) describes her wartime experience of being inside a shelter and the people she met there: an old sick man with his wife, who was incessantly reciting the rosary, and children clinging to their mothers. Emphasises tension and gripping fear with involuntary moments of humour. Following an explosion, numerous pieces of paper rained into the shelter and a boy said 'mum, look, the Tommy sends us wrapping paper'.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#555
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Format
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00:02:59 audio recording
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/242/Memoro 15926.1.mp3
7d20ce419acbae7ace9081c1d9f4e8f0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RR: Grüß Gott, ich bin Renate Rothaler. Ich neunundsiebzig Jahre alt und stamme aus Thüringen. In Gotha bin ich aufgewachsen, dort habe ich auch den Krieg ziemlich bewusst durchlebt und habe auch noch eine Zeit lang die DDR genossen. In den ersten Kriegsjahren kriegten wir nicht so sehr viel mit. Mein Vater war eingezogen und meine Mutter lebte mit meiner kleinen Schwester und mir alleine in einem hübschen Dreifamilienhaus mit Garten, schönes, edles Haus. [pauses] Wie gesagt, am Anfang kriegten wir nicht so sehr viel mit, aber im Frühjahr 1944, Februar, ich erinnere mich, es war ein strahlend schöner Tag, alles weiss voll Schnee, die Mutter hatte uns Kohlrübensuppe gekocht und das mochten wir gar nicht, und da war uns das sehr willkommen das mit einemmahl Flugzeuggebrumme zu hören war. Ruck Zuck standen Eva und ich auf’m Fensterbrett in der Küche und drückten die Nase an die Scheibe, die Mutter stand hinter uns damit wir nicht runterfielen war aber sehr neugierig. Es war ein riesiger Schwarm silberner Vögel und wir dachten das sind Deutsche weil es hat kein Alarm gegeben. Und ich ging die erste Klasse in die Schule und hab damit geprahlt wie gut ich schon zählen konnte. Hab die silbernen Vögel gezählt. Bei 47 fingen die an Eier zu legen. Das waren keine Deutschen, das waren Amis! Meine Mutter hatte uns rechts und links unter’n Arm genommen und ist mit uns in den Keller gerasst. Mein lieber Schwarn! Na ja, aber es ist uns glücklicherweise nichts passiert. Ostern, in den Osterferien 1944, wurde meine Schule bombardiert. Wir waren natürlich in Ferien und die Schule wurde als Lazarett genutzt aber zum Glück fiel die Bombe ins Treppenhaus und es hat keiner davon Schaden genommen. Wir hatten natürlich keine Schule mehr, war auch nicht zu übel. Und da die Angriffe immer stärker wurden, hatte meine Mutter folgenden Entschluss gefasst. Sie packte jeden Früh einen Picknickkorb, eine Tasche mit Spielsachen und Büchern und Decken und wir fuhren um 5 Uhr mit der ersten Waldbahn in den Thüringer Wald, suchten uns eine schöne Wiese und schlugen da unser Lager auf. Und da haben wir dann gespielt und vorgelesen, ich konnte da inzwischen schon lesen, machte das auch sehr gerne. Die Mutti hatte uns die Bücher von Gustav Freitag eingepackt, der in einem Vorort von Gotha gelebt hatte und den wir deswegen schon besonders schätzten. Der hatte eine grosses Werk verfasst, heißt die Ahnen, mehrere Bände, und es handelt von einem Königsssohn und seinen Nachkommen bis zur fast heutigen Zeit. Und jedes dieser einzelnen Bücher begann mit einer Jahreszahl, im Jahre sowieso. Und diese Jahreszahl bezog sich immer auf ein wichtiges Ereignis in der Geschichte. Und ich habe diese Bücher unheimlich gerne gelesen, weil ich sowieso eine Leseratte war, eigentlich ja heut noch bin. Und Diese Jahreszahlen die haben mir ein fabelhaftes Gerüst gegeben für den Geschichtsunterricht, da konnte ich sozusagen alles was ich neu erfahren habe anknüpfen. Na schön. Eines Tages war der Vater in Urlaub da und fuhr mit uns auch raus in den Wald. Er lief vor uns her und wir fanden auf der Wiese so dicke, weisse Pilze. Und die sahen eigentlich aus wie Schneebälle, sagen wir mal. Und wir packten die Dinger und warfen die auf den Vati, als wenn wir ihn mit Schneebällen beschmeissen. Und da wurde er sehr ärgerlich, nicht weil wir ihn beschmissen haben, sondern weil wir ihn mit den Pilzen beschmissen haben. Er kannte die, das waren Boviste, eine sehr sehr schmackhafte, gute Sorte und wir hätten eine Mordsessen davon machen können und jetzt hatte er sie auf’m Pelz.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Renate Rothaler
Description
An account of the resource
Renate Rothaler (b. 1937) recounts her wartime experiences in Gotha, where she lived with her mother and sister while her father was drafted. Mentions a bombing in spring 1944 when she watched ‘silver birds’ that soon started to drop bombs, a sight that prompted her mother to rush the whole family down to the cellar. Mentions the Easter 1944 bombing of their school - which was then used as a hospital - and explains how a bomb hit the staircase without causing harm. Explains that when the bombing war grew in intensity, her mother packed every day a picnic basket and caught the train to the Thuringian Forest. They spent their time playing and reading the books of the local novelist Gustav Freytag, works which gave Renate a basic historical knowledge.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:05:39 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#15926
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Gotha
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/219/Memoro 4729.1.mp3
c90c7e924e4fdf169b03eb94fd4be842
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HCV: Im Krieg hat mein Vater ausfindig gemacht wo wir einen guten, einen verhältnissmässig guten Luftschutzkeller bekommen, das es einen verhältnissmässig guten Luftschutzkeller gab. Und er hat sich dann umgesehen und hat gesagt also im Shell-Haus, dass hieß ja Shell-Haus weil es von der Shell AG gebaut worden war, da gehen wir nicht, das ist zu dicht am Kanal und wenn da eine Luftmine schräg reingeht da ertrinken wir alle. Und da hat er ausfindig gemacht das hier [points to with her hand] die U-Bahn, die U-Bahn Abstellgleise waren und zwar gingen die bis fast zur Kurfürstenstrasse, vom Nollendorfplatz bis zur Kurfürstenstrasse durch, bis zum U-Bahnhof. Und da ging dann, da konnte man runtergehen, und die wurden, diese Abstellgleise, das waren drei Etagen, die hatte man dann als Luftschutzraüme zur Verfügung gestellt, und hatte sie so ein bischen hergerichtet, mit Bänken und Tischen und Lampen und und, luftdichten Fenstern, beziehungsweise Türen, das die richtig diese Abdichtung hatten, also diese feuerfesten.
Unknown interviewer: Feurschutztüren
HCV: die gab es damals auch schon, das waren diese Metalltüren, so, die gab’s da und die waren da auch eingebaut undsoweiter. Und dann sind wir dahin gegangen das war nach diesen schlimmen Angriff am 29-30 januar 1944, als hier die ganze Potsdamer Straße brannte und wir auch Glück hatten, das wir hier in der PohlStraße davongekommen waren. Aber wir hatten gar kein Gas und kein Wasser und die, und unser Schornstein, wir konnten also nicht kochen weil der Schornstein voller Trümmer war, voller Steine zugeschüttet war, das musste alles erst geraümt werden, also wir waren ein Paar Tage da auch ein bisschen hilflos. Aber mein Vater hatte das ausfindig gemacht und dann sind wir dann in den, also das ist also von Anfang der Pohlstrasse, also Anfang der Potsdammerstrasse bis hierher immer ein ganz ziemlicher Weg gewesen und wir sind dann wenn der Voralarm kam, das waren dann diese Sirenentöne die dann drei mal in Abständen aufheulten und dann sind wir meistens schon losgegangen und haben dann dort auch Plätze gefunden und das weil es ja dann sehr oft passierte, also jede Nacht war dann Alarm, manchmal sogar zweimal und wir hatten auch mitunter dreimal Alarm sind wir dann, hatte sich da so ‘ne kleine Gruppe gebildet, die sich kennengelernt hatte. Und dann waren da also alle möglichen Menschen, unter anderem auch ‘ne ältere Dame, so richtig Berliner Original, bei jedem Satz hatte man, da hätte man lachen können weil die so [unclear] aufwar, und so viel Mutterwitz hatte, und wir sitzen alle da und unterhalten uns und so hatte man auch festgestellt welche Einstellung man hatte und dann hat man sich einige Witze erzählt und natürlich auch die politischen Sachen kam dann und so und das war also etwas lockere Gruppe und man fühlte sich, wir fühlten uns da unten verhaltnissmässig sicher auch. Mann hörte zwar Bomben und dann wusste man auch das Einschläge waren aber man hatte nicht das Gefühl unbedingt da voller Angst sitzen zu müssen. Und wir sitzen eines Tages da und plotzlich hörte man da so klappern, klingeln und dann sagte die Alte, ich weiss auch den Namen nicht mehr, jetzt wollen wir mal ruhig sein, wollen wir uns mal über etwas anderes unterhalten, irgendetwas unterhalten über die politische Lage unterhalten. Und dann kam eine Frau rein mit einem Dackel, so auch mittleres Alters, so anfang, um die fünfzig umschätzend, bisschen untersetzter Typ, also man merkte sie kam aus der östlichen Gegend von Deutschland oder Süd-west Deutschland, sprach auch ein gewissen Akzent und war sehr nett und sehr freundlich, wir unterhielten uns mit ihr und da wir ja nun gewarnt waren, waren wir natürlich ein bisschen vorsichtig und haben uns über ganz banale Sachen unterhalten und als wir uns dann das nächste Mahl trafen da erzählte uns der wo diese Frau nicht dabei war, erzählte uns die Frau ja sagt sie die ist, die spioniert überall rum und denunziert die Leute, die kommt aus der Tschechei und ist in Prag, ist wohl eine Pragerin, spricht ja Deutsch, also die Prager haben damals grossenteils auch Deutsch gesprochen, die ist also mit den Nazis ganz eng, ist also eine Nazi-rieke, hat sie gesagt.
UI: Nazi-rieke?
HCV: Nazi-rieke [laughs] Na ja, und also jedenfalls haben wir das dann. Sie hat also in Prag da schon einiges erlebt, die haben sie schon hinterher Steine geschmissen und so weil sie bekannt war, sie soll schon eine ganze Menge Leute denunziert haben. Na ja, also schön, die haben wir ein Paar mal erlebt und die war schon nett und freundlich, wenn sie da war aber wir haben uns zurückerhalten. Und der Krieg ist zu Ende und dann haben wir erfahren dass sie auch in der Pohlstraße gewohnt hat. Damals hiess die Pohlstraße noch Ludendorff-Straße, nach dem General Ludendorff, wir wohnten rechts und die wohnte auf der linken Seite, nicht weit von der Kluckstraße weg. Das Haus ist dann auch noch niedergebrannt worden hinterher. Aber als die noch da wohnte das war gleich nachdem die Russen, als praktisch die Kampftruppen vorbei waren und die Richtung Potsdammer Brücke sich bewegt hatten das muss auch noch am selben, am nächsten Tag war es, der 28. April war als die Russen uns [unclear] haben und dass muss am 29. April gewesen sein, da kam dann die politische Polizei, die Politoffiziere und haben sich einer Frau Metarum erkundigt, so hiess die Frau und dann hat man die aus der Wohnung geholt, kam sie mit ihrem Dackel runter. Und dann haben die Russen sie gefragt wie sie heisst und die hat dann ihren Namen genannt und dann hat der Russische Offizier gesagt ‘gehen Sie bitte vor’ und dann ist die vorgegangen und dann hat er die von hinten mit einen [unclear] Schuss erschossen. Das haben wir dann am nächsten Tag von einer Bekannten erfahren, die da auch gewohnt hatte und Unterkunft hatte weil sie vorher in den anderen, in einem anderen Haus ausgebombt war, die kannten wir auch gut. Ja und der Dackel jaulte auf als er sah das sein Frauchen [unclear] und dann hat man den Dackel auch gleich erschossen. Die war also bekannt. So, und die Rückmeldung habe ich dann von der Gedenkstätte Deutscher Wiederstand bekommen. Ich hab das erzählt, hab das Bericht gegeben und dann hat mir dann der [unclear] der diese ganzen Dokumentation zurechtgemacht hat, der hat mir dann gesagt, ja sagt er ich habe das erfahren, die wohnte in der Pohlstraße 90. Also die wohnte da, und die war da bekannt und die wohnte in der Pohlstraße 90. Also habe ich die Rückmeldung bekommen das das so gestimmt hat. Da war ich eigentlich sehr froh das das was ich erzählt habe auch Wirklichkeit war, gestimmt hat, nicht. Denn manchmal weiss man ja nicht, [unclear] dein Gedächnis oder aber es war ja so es ist so eingeprägt gewesen das das ja gar nicht anders gewesen sein konnte, nicht.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Helga Cent-Velden
Description
An account of the resource
Helga Cent-Velden (b. 1926) recounts her life in Berlin under constant threat of bombing. Describes how her father tried to locate a suitable air raid shelter for the family and especially how he ruled out the Shell House because of a canal running nearby and the consequent risk of flooding. Narrates how he eventually took the family to the sidings of Berlin underground railway, which had been fitted with benches, tables, lamps and fire doors. Describes the friendly community inside the shelter stressing the aftermath of the 29/30 January 1944 bombing, when the people were unable to cook because of a blocked chimney. Narrates how they shared the shelter with a German-speaking woman from Prague and her dachshund and how they later discovered that she was a well-known informer. Recalls on how Russian political officers came to look for this woman the 29 April 1945 and how they shot her and the dog.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4729
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:08:54 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04-29
1944-04-30
1945-04-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
animal
bombing
civil defence
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/73/Memoro 4243.2.mp3
567dca1b364de2a5bacc4b0dce0fc037
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MD: Ein Eindruck noch der mir auch unvergesslich ist, ist das eines Tages, hat meine Mutter mich Brot holen geschickt nach [unclear] in das Dorf oben auf’m Berg [pauses] und ich war [clears her throat] noch auf der ebenen Strecke, rechts in einiger Entfernung war Wald und es kamen Tiefflieger, ganz viele und der Wald fing an zu brennen und ich kriechte eine panische Angst, ich habe mich in diesen Graben geschmissen obwohl der sumpfig war oder feucht damit man mich nicht sieht, weil es ganz ungeschützt alles war, offener Weg und ich gehört hatte dass die Tiefflieger auch auf einzelne Menschen schiessen, die sich da in der Gegend rumbewegen. Und ich lag dann da in dem Graben und hörte also dann immer zu den Tiefflieger und hab gebetet, dass das bald vorbei ist und ich bald aufstehen und nach Hause rennen kann, aber es hatt sehr lange gedauert. Und dann habe ich gesehen wie Soldaten flohen. Die kamen aus dem Wald. Und [clears throat] als ich dann endlich zurück konnte, also so’ne Pause mal kam mit den Tieffliegern, da sah ich wie diese auf der Hauptstrasse, auf der Dorfstrasse so durch rannten und liefen.
Unknown interviewer: Deutsche Soldaten.
MD: Deutsche Soldaten, die völlig abgerissen waren, schmutzig, kaputte Uniform, hungrig, aber auf der Flucht. Die Dorfbewohner haben, wollten schon denen irgendwie was zu essen geben, obwohl niemand viel hatte aber sie haben sich also auch gar nicht lange aufhalten koennen. Und tatsachlich, nicht lange danach, vielleicht ein Paar Stunden danach, kamen die Amerikaner durch’s Dorf gerollt auf Panzern. Da hab ich zum ersten Mal Schwarze gesehen, auch alle in Uniform, chic, gut rasiert, frisch gekämmt, als ob sie jetzt grade einen Ausflug machen würden. So sahen alle aus und alle waren auch alle ganz nett und freundlich, und schmissen so ‘n bisschen Schockolade in die Kindermenge. Die Dorfbewohner standen am Rand und guckten mit offenen Mündern. [pauses] [clears throat] Zunächst hatten wir Angst, aber als wir sahen dass die uns dann gar nix taten sondern einfach nur durchfahren wollten, wohin auch immer, warscheinlich hinter den Deutschen Soldaten her, da wurden wir dann etwas mutiger und einige sachten sogar: ‘Please give me chocolate’ und die kriechten dann auch was.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maria Domanovszky
Description
An account of the resource
Maria Domanovszky (b. 1937) recounts how she threw herself into a swampy ditch when under fire and how she lay down praying and hoping to get back home safely. Describes German soldiers with torn and dirty uniforms escaping from a burning forest. Tells memories of the first encounter with black American soldiers: they were friendly, looked well-dressed and threw chocolate to a crowd of village children. When the adults standing nearby realised that the soldiers were no cause of alarm, they asked for chocolate as well.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-04
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:03:00 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4243
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
African heritage
childhood in wartime
faith
home front
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/72/Memoro 462.1.mp3
8ffb522899c95bd9dc21d8a051746b94
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BK: In unserem Wohnzimmer hängt ein solcher Spiegel [emphasises] [takes a small mirror]. Dieser Spiegel hat Geschichte. Er ist jetzt vierunsechzig Jahre alt, nein dreiundsechzig, und er stammt aus England [emphasises]. Vor dreinundsechzig Jahren war ich in England in einem Gefangenenlager. Wir hatten im ganzen Lager keinerlei Spiegel. Im Lager arbeiteten viele der Gefangenen ausserhalb und zwar auch im Schloss nebenan, in dem Englische Wachmanschaften wohnten und da passierte einen dieser Gefangenen das Missgeschick, dass ihm ein Hammer in einem grossen Kristallspiegel in dem Schloss fiel und die ganzen Scherben runterfielen und das war dann der Beginn, das Ende der spiegellosen Zeit in diesem Lager, denn ein Kumpel der unter mir wohnte, oder unter mir schlief in unserer Baracke der fünfzehn Menneken waren, der hat mir diesen zum Andenken geschenkt und da hatte ich einen Spiegel, konnte mich rasieren, damals rasierte ich mich noch, heute ist es das nicht mehr denmassen nötig wie man sieht. Und dieser Spiegel erinnert mich immer wieder dran, darum hängt er im Wohnzimmer, dass es auch anders kommen kann, dass es mir schlechter gehen kann, dass ich nicht immer so leben darf oder dass es sein kann dass es schlechter wird. Und Ich bin nämlich im Jahre ‘44 in Frankreich verwundet worden, kam in Englische Gefangenschaft nach England rüber, wurde in einem Krankenhaus in Liverpool ein halbes Jahr lang sehr gut behandelt, dadurch ist mein Bein gerettet worden, das vermutlich in den Kampfhandlungen in Deutschland sicher kurzerhand abgeschnitten worden wäre. Diese Zeit ist mir unvergesslich denn dort habe ich auch Englisch gelernt, das passierte so, das ich im Bett lag, ich war im Beckengips, konnte nicht aufstehen, gar nichts, und eine alte Zeitung, die die Schwestern dort hatten, die haben sie mir gegeben, die habe ich obwohl ich kein Wort Englisch konnte als ich in die Gefangenschaft kam habe ich einfach von vorne bis hinten durchgelesen und da ich ja nun ein Jahr in Frankreich war als Soldat, hatte ich noch ganz gute Französischkenntnisse, wenn man das mit Deutsch kombiniert dann kann man das meiste Englisch raten und das habe ich auch gemacht und auf die Weise habe ich die Sprache gelernt. Eine Schwester die borgte mir ein kleines Wörterbuch, so’n Taschenwörterbuch, weil sie nun mit Deutschen Gefangenen auch zu tun hatte und das habe ich von vorne bis hinten durchgelesen. Ich erinnere mich noch das erste Wort das ich mir aufgeschrieb in einen kleinen Heftchen das aus alten Krankenblättern von den Schwestern mit Leukoplast zusammengeheftet war, das erste Wort war [unclear] der Unterlagen. Und so habe ich mir alle Worte die mir wichtig erfielen aufgeschrieben und habe dann ganz systematisch gelernt. Die Grammatik ergibt sich automatisch wenn man oft genug liest, wenn man eine Sprache immer wieder [unclear] in einem Zusammenhang liest, dann erschließt sich auch der inhalt der Worte, der Charakter der Worte, wenn man ein Wort zwanzig Mal geraten hat dann weiß man ungefähr was es bedeutet und nun lagen neben mir zig andere Gefangene in einem Lager, in einem Raum waren es mal fünfzig Gefangene oder fünfzig Pazienten, im anderen waren es nur zweiundzwanzig, und die fragten mich dann [part missing in the original file] 1945 nachdem ich also schon zwei Monate mich mit dem, mit der Sprache beschäftigt hatte, ‘ja was liest du denn da eigentlich’, dann habe ich den gesagt, ‘was jetzt alles in der Welt passiert’, dann must du uns da mal was vorlesen, dann habe ich jeden Tag eine Zeitungs [unclear] ein und hatte das große Glück das kein Lehrer mir über die Schulter schaute und gefragt hatte ist es richtig oder ist es falsch. Und auf die Weise habe ich denen jeden Tag, wir waren ja alle gespannt, wie geht der Krieg weiter, ist er bald zu Ende undsoweiter, wir hatten ja keinerlei Nachrichten von Zuhause. Unsere Familie die wusste auch zuerst gar nicht wo wir sind, wir waren als vermisst gemeldet und erst als ich zurückkam, ja, anderthalb Jahre später nach Deutschland aus der Gefangenschaft da habe ich überhaupt erst alles erfahren was alles bei uns passiert ist, dass meine Eltern zum Glück noch lebten, dass mein Bruder gefallen war und mein jüngerer Bruder lebte auch noch. Dieses Sprachenlernen das war im Krankenhaus. Als ich aus dem Krankenhaus rauskam, es war ein historischer Tag, der achte Mai ’45, kam ich in ein Lager in der Nähe von Liverpool, Marbury Hall hieß das und zwar ist das in einem Schlosspark gewesen. Dieser Schlosspark war mit Stacheldraht umgeben das waren in rollen also übereinander zehn Meter [part missing in the original file] und von Zeit zu Zeit war ein Wachturm, wo Englische Posten drauf waren und da waren insgesamt zwei Teillager mit je zweitausend, also viertausend Man drin und dieses Lager war zum grossen Teil von gesunden Gefangenen aber auch von einem kleinen Teil Verwundete. Die Gesunden, die gingen raus, wurden jeden Tag rausgeführt zur Arbeit immer in fünfer Reihen so das also zwei Mann schnell zählen konnten wie viele es sind und die haben also in Liverpool im Hafen gearbeitet, oder sie haben auf dem Lande gearbeitet, und bei Bauern gearbeitet undsoweiter. Und immer wenn sie irgend etwas fanden das man eventuell verwenden konnte, haben sie das mitgebracht und das haben wir dann, haben die Verwundeten geerbt und haben daraus sich Sachen gebastellt. Zwar hatten wir offiziell keine Werkzeuge aber das wurde nach und nach gemacht aus einem Draht. Wir hatten Feldbetten übereinander immer und da war ein Draht der so rüberging von einer Seite zur anderen, oder ein Eisenband, und das wurde rausgetrennt und daraus wurde eine Säge gemacht, da hat einer stundenlang oder tagelang mit einer Nagelfeile dieses Band bearbeitet bis eine Säge zusammenhatte. Ein anderer hat aus einem alten, einer kaputten Autofeder ein Hobeleisen gemacht. Vorher musste er natürlich erstmal Schleifsteine sich gestalten und da hat er dann zwei Steine übereinander gerieben stundenlang, tagelang, bis er zwei Schleifsteine hatte und auf denen hat er dann diese Autofeder solange geschlieffen bis er ein wunderbares Hobeleisen hatte. Aus einem Holzklotz dann das übrige Teil des Hobel zu bauen das war dann sicher kein Problem mehr. Und diese Leute die haben mir dann eben auch aus den Scherben diesen Spiegel zusammengebastellt der für mich eine bliebende Erinnerung ist. Ich habe zwar nicht dort viel gearbeitet. Vielleicht noch eine Ergänzung. Ich habe dort Buchhaltung gelernt, ich habe Stenographie gelernt denn da war unter uns Verwundeten ein Diplom Kaufmann, der dann Unterricht gehalten hat und wer Interesse hatte konnte dann dahinkommen und da habe ich also die Grundlagen der Betriebswirtschaft dort kennengelernt. Hat für mein späteres Studium hat mir das sehr geholfen. Und dann noch wurden abends auch gelegentlich Vorträge gehalten, zum Beispiel hat ein Export Kaufmann, der als Gefangener war, erzählt von seinen Reisen die er vor den Krieg in der ganzen Welt gemacht hatte oder ein Apotheker hat über Kreuter Heilverfahren was erzählt und eines Tages hat dieser Apotheker einen Bericht gemacht wurde [unclear] am schwarzen Brett das er über die Frage Bub oder Mädl, die Bestimmung des Geschlechts [unclear]. Und sonst haben wir diese Vorträge waren in einer kleinen Baracke aber dieses mal war die Baracke, reichte nicht, da war ein so grosser [unclear] das wir im Speisesaal, in einer Speisesaalbaracke diesen Vortrag hielt und er hat uns da aufgeklärt über die Methode und zwar das nach einer langeren Enthaltsamkeit werden meistens Buben geboren, und sonst eben Mädchen. Oder auch den Faust haben wir dort erlebt, das eine Gruppe Goethe’s Faust den ersten Teil gespielt hat, die haben monatelang geprobt und geübt, und sogar die Frauenrollen wurden von Gefangenen in der wunderbarer Verkleidung und so überzeugend dargestellt das das mir das die interessanteste Theateraufführung meines Lebens geblieben ist.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Burckhard Kuck
Description
An account of the resource
Burckhard Kuck (b. 1925) tells the story of a 63-year-old mirror, a present from his fellow inmates when he was detained in a prisoner of war camp in England. Emphasises how the object reminds him of the lack of mirrors in the camp and of the fact life can suddenly change for the worse. Chronicles his detention in a hospital near Liverpool: learned to speak English by reading an old newspaper with the help of a pocket dictionary; used a makeshift notebook made of discarded medical reports held together by medical tape; read the news to his fellow inmates. Narrates his relocation to Marbury Hall on 8 May 1945 and tells anecdote of camp life: inmates making tools from scrap metal; detainees lecturing on bookkeeping, shorthand, and biology; staging of Goethe’s Faust.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-08-17
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:10:12 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#462
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Northwich
England--Liverpool
England--Cheshire
England--Lancashire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-08
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
entertainment
heirloom
home front
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/71/Memoro 1546.2.mp3
3e225be819b1fb48286e50ab5fa2343b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CWB: “Also jetzt geht’s über mein Erlebnis zu der Erinnerung im Luftschutzkeller. Der Luftschutzkeller war ja jahrelang ein Ort, wo man mehr Zeit verbringen konnte als in der eigenen Wohnung und eine ganz besondere Situation über die ich noch nirgendwo im Roman oder in Literatur etwas wirklich adäquat beschreibendes gefunden habe, aber vielleicht gibt’s irgendwo, ich kenn’s noch nicht. Also der Luftschutzkeller ist ein Raum in den man höchst unfreiwillig als Hausgemeinschaft eben getrieben wird durch ein Signal, nämlich die Sirene. Wenn man das nicht befolgt hat man noch mehr Risiko, nämlich in der Wohnung sozusagen von Bomben umgelegt zu werden, aber das Risiko natürlich im Luftschutzkeller ist auch sehr erheblich denn man kann ja verschüttet werden, man muss auf ängstem Raum sogar mit Sauerstoffmangel, muss man da mit Leuten, mit dem [sic] man vielleicht verfeindet ist, Deutschland ist ja das Land der Nachbarschaftsprozesse weltweit führend, zu unser Schande sei es gesagt, zur Schande der Rechthaber und Kleingärtner. Und da ist also im Luftschutzkeller eine besondere Atmosphäre, und ganz generell ist mir schon als Kind aufgefallen, das sich im Krieg die Geister scheiden. Der Krieg ist vielleicht [emphasises] leider nötig, damit die Leute sich entscheiden. Jetzt in diesen Friedenszeiten leben alle so nebenander her und zeigen unsere spitze Ecken und Kanten nicht, aber im Luftschutzkeller kommt eben alles raus, das ist eine Kathartische Situation. Da war ich also gerade dreizehn, den mit dreizehneinhalb kam ich weg aus Berlin im Rahmen der Kinderlandverschickung. Also mit dreizehn Jahren und naturlich mit zwölf schon auch, aber ganz besonders schlimm war es 1943, als nämlich Deutschland die Lufthoheit verlor. Wir hatten kein Öl mehr als Bargut, dass heißt, unsere Flieger, unsere Abwehrflotte wie auch unsere Angriffsflotte waren zwanzig Jahre voraus, das habe ich jetzt in [unclear] gelesen technisch, aber sie konnten nicht mehr starten. Dass heißt, wir haben die Lufthoheit verloren, das war eine ganz bestimmter Tag. Plötzlich konnten die [unclear] ungehindert einfliegen und dann hat dieser Englische Luftmarschall den Befehl gegeben eben, als Vergeltung auf die V-Waffen, die Vergeltung auf die Vergeltungswaffen, nichts mehr zu schonen, dann fing tatsächlich der Terrorkrieg an und ja zu unseren Ungunsten. [part missing in the original file] Also diese Situation des Luftschutzkellers die ist so unvergesslich und hat sich mir so eingeprägt, nun ist ja das Alter von dreizehn Jahren auch eine Prägezeit, es ist ja auch der Beginn der Pubertät, man ist hell wach in jeder Beziehung, weiss noch nicht genau was in der Welt los ist. Wir hatten im Haus auch berühmte Leute, zum Beispiel war da der Feldmarschall Milch, der einzig jüdische General der Deutschen Wehrmacht, der ja von, also der Name ist ja ganz klar Milch, ich habe ihn auch ganz gut gekannt, vom Fahrstuhl und vom Luftschutzkeller, sehr netter Mensch, der war ja derjenige wo Goering dann gesagt hat, “wer Jude ist bestimme ich”, weil Himmler den abschiessen wollte. Es war ja ein erbitterter Kampf zwischen Goering und Himmler. Und im Übrigen war meine Mutter mit der Frau von Goering befreundet weil die Emmy Sonnemann eben eine Schauspielerin war zur Zeit meiner Mutter da waren die Kolleginen. Wir hatten also einen Draht zu Goering, der war aber nicht benutzt, einmal versucht, es ging dann schief. Also im Luftschutzkeller dann haben sich die Geister geschieden, worüber geredet wurde, und es war eine richtige Todesangst da, denn jedes Mahl wenn der Alarm zu Ende war, ging man raus und musste erstmal prüfen ob man verschüttet war und am Schluss war ja auch alles kaput, nur wir kamen noch raus und zum Teil fielen noch Bombensplitter während auch schon Entwarnung war. Und ein Bombensplitter viel mal direkt vor meinem kleinen Bruder, der war damals ein Baby, nieder, und da hatte ich wieder so’n religiöses Erlebniss, also er soll weiterleben, und der lebt ja auch heute noch und ist mein lieber Bruder, [unclear] zwölf Jahre junger in Brüssel. Und in den Keller dann, das hat man mir erzählt, ich erzähle etwas indirekt, was mir viele Leute erzählt haben aber ich habe festgestellt das besonders wenn man etwas Gutes tut, wenn man etwas mit ganz reinem Gewissen tut, was so durch einen hindurchfliesst, und gar nicht im Umweg über’s Gehirn geht, das man das dann vergisst weil es offensichtlich inspiriert ist und man ist in irgendeinen Lebensfluss oder Heilstrom angeschlossen. So war das auch, jedenfalls hat man mir berichtet, das ich reihe um gegangen bin und die Leute getröstet habe, also ganz bedeutende Leute die im Keller dann eben ihre Angst durchbrechen liessen. Und dieses Erlebnis, also diese erzwungene Gemeinschaft, die Leute die nichts gemeinsam haben außer der Adresse und dann diese notdürftig abgestützten luftschutzkeller, die auch nicht viel aushalten und diese Stimmung und das lustigste war noch, wenn die Sirene tönte, am Schluss haben wir uns ja gar nicht mehr ausgezogen, weil es sich nicht lohnte, wir haben uns in Kleidern auf’s Bett gelegt um schneller im Keller zu sein und wenn dann eines Tages mal keine Flieger kamen oder nicht wie damals neun, halb zehn Uhr Abends dann mit den Berliner Witz, haben sich die Leute im Treppenhaus versammelt und haben gesagt: “Ach Jotchen, ach Jotchen, et wird Ihnen doch nischt zujestoßen sein”, nicht, also dass man sich dann noch um die Alliierten sorgt, ob diese Flieger da ankommen. Faszinierend war’s die Scheinwerferkegel, das ist für mich ein Gleichnis der Erkenntnis geworden. Da kamen also die Flugzeuge und ein Scheinwerfer hat den erfasst und wieder verloren und dann hatt man einen Kegel gebildet und der Kegel wurde zum Kreuz und dann konnte das Flugzeug abgeschossen werden. Das ist für mich ungeheuer sinnbildlich, das habe ich mir angeguckt, das fand ich faszinierend. Und eines Tages bin ich im Grunewald spazieren gegangen, wir wohnten nicht weit weg davon, und da sah ich etwas, was ich auch nie vergessen werde. Ich sah in Puppengröße, also etwa ein Meter, sah ich einen Alliierten Piloten, völlig eingeschrumpft, wie also in einer Maschine eingeschrumpft, aber alles war erkennbar, Gesicht und alles, und dann habe ich mir nachher von Physikern erklären lassen, ich hab das verboten, Entschuldigung, ich hab das vergessen, verloren, was es für eine Erklärung war, jedenfalls habe ich diesen eingeschrumpften Piloten da gesehen. Und eine Sache erinnere ich mich auch noch, wir hatten ganz getrennt immer alles was mit Bad und Toilette zu tun hatte von unseren Eltern, und einmal da war es so dringlich das meine Mutter reingekommen ist und sagt “Kinder guckt mal weg” und hatt sich dann auf’s Kloh gesetzt ohne das wir zugeguckt haben, aber jedenfalls das meine Mutter in meiner Gegenwart, damals dreizehn Jahre alt, sozusagen, pinkelte das war für mich auch so ein Erlebnis was ich nicht vergessen werde, es hat ja eine gewisse Vertrautheit hergestellt. Ja, das sind also eingeprägte Erinnerungen, die eigentlich ganz stark sind, nicht, die, kann man mich nachts wecken und ich kann das alles noch erzählen.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Christoph Wagner Brausewetter
Description
An account of the resource
Christoph Wagner Brausewetter (b. 1929) recounts the hardships civilians endured inside a shelter, the risks involved and the fact they spent there more time there than at home. Maintains that the worst year was 1943, when aircraft were no longer able to take off and Germany lost its air supremacy. Mentions his neighbour Field Marshal Erhard Milch and how his mother got acquainted with Goering’s wife. Tells of how a bomb splinter nearly missed his baby brother and how this triggered a religious epiphany. Describes moments of humour when, waiting for the next bombing, they wondered if something had happened to the bomber crews. Narrates how he was fascinated by the searchlights forming a cross when coning an enemy aircraft and the moment he stumbled upon the shrunken corpse of an allied pilot in the Grünwald forest.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Format
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00:08:12 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#1546
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Grünwald
Germany--Berlin
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
home front
sanitation
searchlight
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/70/Memoro 425.1.mp3
d3817744f14ba3c28a5b6214688a72b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IH: [part missing in the original file] In Berlin, also es war [pauses] Ende, es war Anfang 1945, und ich bin, [pauses] ich traüme, dass ich verschüttet werde und ich traüme aber auch, und es kam auch raus dass ich das überleben werde also ich brauche keine Angst zu haben ich werde das überleben aber ich werde etwas ganz furchtbares erleben. Und damals haben wir in einen Patentbüro gearbeitet, bei Patentanwälten, und es waren ein Haufen Leute da in dem Haus und es kam ein Alarm und wir gingen in den Keller und es sind, es ist ganz Charlottenburg und ganz Kreuzberg bombardiert worden, drei Stunden lang und es sind mindestens drei Bomben vor unser Haus gefallen, es hat gewackelt und gezittert und gebebt es ist aber Gott sei dank nicht eingefallen aber es kam dann noch, ach ne, haben wir gefunden, wir müssen hier raus, und die Leute fingen an zu schreien und zu weinen, ja weil es zu brennen anfing. Ich bin jemand, oder ich war immer jemand, wenn’s schwierig wird und die Leute werden, hysterische Krise Anfälle, werde ich ganz ruhig, ich hab gesagt ‘Leute seid still wir haben hier, wir können hier raus, wir werden uns hier retten, wir kommen hier raus, und bitte schreit jetzt nicht rum, so dann, wir finden das schon. Wir fanden auch diese Stelle, da waren die Keller miteinander verbunden mit einer dünnen Schicht, so ‘n Paar Ziegelsteine und da gab’s ‘n Hammer dazu, dann haben wir das eingeschlagen im Moment wo ich durch dieses Loch, durch diese, diese Öffnung [audio interrupted and cut] die Bombe direkt auf’s Haus, dieses Haus bricht zusammen und ich bin bis zu den Schultern oder bis [part missing in the original file] begraben. Dann haben sie mich rausgeholt und wir sind raus, mir ist nichts passiert und wir kamen auf die Strasse und es war alles zerstört, ganz Kreuzberg war eine einzige, ja, Schutthalde und die Leichen lagen auf der Strasse und ich habe einfach nur ‘Danke’ gesagt ‘Danke, Gott oder wer immer das ist der für uns sorgt, Danke dass ich leben darf’ und bin nach Hause gelaufen und meine Mutter stand schon vor der Tür und wartete auf mich, die wußte das ja und hatt mich umarmt, und hatt gesagt ‘Kind, ja, und ich glaube jetzt müssen wir Berlin verlassen’. Und dann sind wir nach Süddeutschland ausgebüxt, wie man so sagt. Das war’s.
Unknown interviewer: na gut [?]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Inge Heinrich
Description
An account of the resource
Inge Heinrich (b. 1922) describes the bombing of the Berlin borough of Kreuzberg and recounts how she had dreamt of being buried alive under the rubble but surviving in the end. Tells of how the patent agency building, in which she was working, was hit by three bombs but luckily didn’t immediately crumble; emphasises how she managed to keep calm and reassure those who panicked; explains how she escaped from the building on fire only to be buried under the rubble caused by a subsequent bomb hit. Tells of how she survived the bombing and was able to run back home, where her mother was waiting for her
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-10-15
Format
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00:02:51 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#425
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Berlin
Germany
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
civilian
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
civil defence
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/69/Memoro 4898.1.mp3
afdd3d84544e3c939509e606c40a0a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MM: „Das ist, am 13. Februar ist meine Mutter, das Haus ist völlig verbrannt, der ganze Block brannte, und meine Mutter, die war grade von der Arbeit gekommen, Spätschicht, und hatte sich nur hingelegt und hatt den ersten Alarm, „alle in den Luftschutzkellern, grosse Angriffe auf Dresden stehen bevor“, haben die durch’s Radio gesagt und da hat sie gedacht, ach ich blieb liegen. Plötzlich war ihr [unclear] als da fällt eine Puppe runter [unclear] bei mir und da wurde sie aufgeschreckt und da ging auch schon das Licht aus und da hat sie die Tasche und den Koffer genommen und ist in den Keller und hat vorher noch mein Konfirmationskleid vom Bügel gerissen wie sie dachte es war aber eine Kunststoffschürze, die hatt sie noch in den Koffer gesteckt und dann in den Luftschutzkeller gegangen und dann, der erste Angriff der hat das Haus nicht beschädicht und da ist meine Mutter noch raufgerannt, hat überall noch die Gardinen abgerissen weil natürlich sämtliche Fenster kaputt waren und die wehten raus zum Fenster, die währen ja auch sofort, wie sie dachten, Brandherde gewesen aber am zweiten, bezeihungsweise am Mitternachtsangriff, um neun war der erste, viertel neun, ist das Haus auch ausgebrannt, da ist vom Hof her auch Phosphor gekommen. Da ist sie raus und an den Elbwiesen entlang zu ihren Elternhaus und ist auch heil angekommen. Allerdings die Stiefel die sie hatte, die hatten Brandlöcher und die eine Tasche, die hat sie weggeworfen. Ja, [background noise] ich war zu der Zeit bei meinen Grosseltern und wie jetzt der Angriff began, man sah den Himmel blutrot, da ist meine Tante, ihre jüngere Schwester, mit mir in die Stadt gegangen, wir sind also rein in die Stadt, und kamen kaum vorwärts, da kamen schon die ersten Flüchtlinge und Ausgebombten, und da war so ein Gedränge das wir einen Umweg gemacht haben und sind dann merkwürdigerweise an einer Schule vorbeigekommen und da sagte jemand: “ihr Haus brennt, aber die Mutti lebt”, die wohnte da in der Nähe. Und dann sind wir da ungekehrt und sind zu den Grosseltern in das Haus gekommen. Und meine Mutter war dann schon da und meine Cousine, sieben Jahre jünger, ich war ja vierzehn, da kam mir entgegen und rief:” [unclear] ist alles verbrannt”, Ja, ist alles verbrannt, “der Puppenwagen auch?” Das war das schlimmste [unclear]“
Memoro DE: „[unclear] Erzählungen was, wie soll ich sagen, was fehlt ist einfach warscheinlich der Geruch auch dieser Brände, die Schreie, warscheinlich viele Tausende Menschen verletzt, verbranntes Fleisch…“
MM: „Furchtbar. Das habe ich alles nicht so mitgekriegt, weil wir am Elbufer gegangen sind und der ganze Feuersturm ist in die Stadt reingezogen, weil ja der Sauerstoff verbraucht war durch die Hitze und da zog das alles in die Stadt rein. Ausserhalb auf den Elbwiesen war es nur rauchig und natürlich hab ich dann um Mittag die Tiefflieger gesehen. Da hab ich mich mit meiner Tante auf die Eisschollen gelegt, war ja Februar, und haben Körper eingezogen und gesehen wie die Tiefflieger über die Elbe geflogen sind und ich, obwohl es alles geleugnet wird, meine doch, das die geschossen haben, es war ein Lärm, und mit Maschinengewehren, warum ja auch nicht, wurden auch Bomben geworfen. Und Jedenfalls sah man auf den anderen Elbufer sah man die Leute die sich hinwarfen. Ob sie nun getroffen waren [?] oder bloss sich auch hinwarfen, jedenfalls die Tiefflieger die hat man ja gesehen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Margarete Meyer
Description
An account of the resource
Margarete Meyer (b. 1936) describes the 13 February 1945 Dresden bombing and recounts how her mother reacted to the alarm. She rushed to the shelter and took some belongings, including what she thought was her confirmation dress. Explains how her mother managed to leave the house after the second attack and escaped to the open fields along the river Elbe. Describes how she managed to reunite with her at her grandparent’s house after fleeing along streets, overcrowded with refugees and injured people. Describes how she didn’t experience the firestorm because she was on the Elbe riverbank, where she saw aircraft bombing civilians and people taking cover by throwing themselves onto the ground.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-02-15
Format
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00:04:15 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#4898
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Dresden
Germany
Europe--Elbe River
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
displaced person
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/68/Memoro 15628.1.mp3
8c81fb9a1dccb84e06f78347255c9c39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: Also ich bin Jahrgang 1936. Meine bewussten Kindheitserinnerungen, an die man sich so erinnert, sind eigentlich Kriegszeitenerinnerungen. Als der Krieg begann war ich drei Jahre alt, als er aufhörte war ich etwa neun. Und, ja, das war Alltag. Man konnte sich gar nicht vorstellen das es was anderes, das es eine andere Zeit geben könnte, ohne Bombenalarm, in den Keller runterlaufen, in den Bunker hasten, ohne diese Leuchtspuren am Himmel, ohne Artillerieabwehrfeuer in der Nacht, wecken durch Alarm, schnell noch die Oberkleidung anziehen, denn man schlief ja halb angezogen, das gehörte also zur Überlebensstrategie. [alarm clock goes off] Dann schnappte ich mein kleines Köfferchen, wo ich meine drei, sieben Sachen drin hatte, und einen kleinen Rucksack, Oma, Opa war ja wieder eingezogen, aber nicht als Soldat sondern war bei der SHD, bei der Schutz- und Hilfstruppe, und Oma nahm den schweren Rucksack und wir hasteten zum Bunker, der war ungefähr, fusslaüfig, fast ‘n Kilometer entfernt. Und ich weiss noch eines Nachts, Oma fiel, und Oma konnte allein mit dem schweren Rucksack kam sie nicht richtig hoch, die Leute hasteten vorbei. Ich rief, helft doch der Oma, helft doch der Oma. Es hat so lange gedauert bis dann jemand angehalten hat im Lauf und der Oma aufgeholfen hat, damit wir in den Bunker kamen. Ich hatte einen kleinen Hitler, so aus Pappmaché, angemalt, [showing the puppet’s raised arm] der war abgebrochen, das war für mich damals schon als Kind, als Kind, war das für mich schon ein Verlust. Wurde immer wieder angeklebt, aber fiel immer wieder langsam runter. Symbolisch eine durchaus bedeutsame Geste. Die Fliegerangriffe waren furchtbar. Man saß im Keller als der Barmen Angriff kam. Das werde ich nie im Leben vergessen, Licht ging aus, die Einschläge waren sehr sehr nahe zu hören, das Haus bebte, alle hatten Angst, alle, schrien zum Teil. Die Männer gingen behertzt schon nach oben und guckten, na ist in der Nahe etwas eingeschlagen? aber es war ja Barmen, das erste Wuppertaler Ziel. Das zweite Wuppertaler Angriff auf Elberfeld wo wir wohnten haben wir nicht abgewartet sondern... Ich heisse Schauerte, die Schauertes sind im Sauerland so beheimatet wie Schmidts im Rheinland und wir haben eben auch Verwandte [emphasis] im Sauerland gehabt und zu dem ist meine Mutter die wiederverheiratet war, natürlich direkt nach der Trauung, mein Vater starb als ich einanviertel Jahr alt war an TBC, mein Stiefvater geheiratet, eingezogen, zweimal [emphasis] zum Heimaturlaub gekommen, daraus resultieren meine zwei Halbgeschwister und naturlich beim dritten Urlaub überhaupt nicht mehr wiedergekommen, vermisst. Also meine Mutter mit meinen zwei kleinen Geschwister, meine Oma und ich, wir evakuierten sag ich mal ins Sauerland und haben den Eberfelder Angriff gehört. Unser Haus hat überlebt, aber die Giebelwand zur linke Seite zum Nachbarhaus war völlig weg weil das Haus war also getroffen worden und es war ein Gründerzeit-Mietshaus gewesen, erste Etage wir wohnten, nebenan wohnten Ralenbecks, hatten die andere Zweizimmerwohnung, und die hatten keine, die guckten wenn man die Tür reinging, direkt ins Freie. Nun haben die dann bei uns gewohnt, bis wir aus dem Sauerland dann wiederkamen. Es war eine fürchterliche Zeit, kaum was zu essen, wir konnten aus dem Sauerland immer wieder was mitbringen, Hamsterfahrten, auch nach dem Krieg noch, mit meiner Mutter Hamsterfahrten gemacht. Ich, kleiner Bömsel [?] auch im Rucksack, und dann zu den Verwandten hin. Die Züge heillos überfüllt, heillos überfüllt, auf den Trittbrettern, in den Coupées hinein, auf den Puffern, überall fuhren die Menschen mit. Das war auch hinterher noch, als ich in die Stadtmitte zur Schule musste, mit der Strassenbahn zu fahren, wir sind nur auf den Außenleisten gestanden und haben den Eltern den Platz im Wagen gelassen. Das grösste Erlebnis für mich war, und dann will ich von auch dieser Zeit gar nicht mehr grossartig erzählen wir haben’s ja alle überlebt, mit Aussnahme meines Stiefvaters, war als Deutschland dann schliesslich am 8. Mai kapitulierte und an dem Abend meine Oma mir sagte, „Junge, du kannst dich, kannst ausziehen wenn Du ins Bett gehst, kommt kein Angriff mehr“. Das hab ich nicht glauben wollen. Ich hab mein Leibchen, war ein selbstgestricktes Ding da von der Oma, als Unterzeug, wo man auch an Strapsen die langen Strümpfe dran machen konnte, das war furchtbar, ein Horror für einen Jungen, weil das war fast wie Mädchen und so, aber dies Leibchen lies man natürlich zur Kriegszeiten nachts immer unter. Ich habe der Oma nicht geglaubt, ich hab das Leibchen druntergelassen di ersten Nächte. Dann stellte sich langsam doch der Glaube ein, das diese schlimme Zeit vorüber war.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interviews with Jaun Schauerte
Description
An account of the resource
Jaun Schauerte (b. 1936) recalls rushing to the shelter with a suitcase and a bag pack. Remembers one night when his grandmother fell under the heavy weight of the rucksack and nobody stopped to help her. Recalls the Bremen bombing, while he was inside a shelter; being evacuated to the Sauerland with his relatives; the Elberfeld bombing and how their house survived the attack unscathed. Recounts anecdotes of a small Hitler figure made of papier-mâché; wartime hardships; trips to get supplies and overcrowded trains. Describes the end of wartime precautions on the evening Germany surrendered.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-09
Format
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00:07:07 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#15628
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/67/Memoro 15496.2.mp3
eb7972ded45a668661f8d92a5ede35eb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Jörg Funfoff: Es ist so. Ich bin Jahrgang 1942, aus dem Sommer und kann im Grunde genommen nichts vom Krieg erinnern, aber da gibt es doch etwas. Das ist mir übrigens erst sehr spät wieder eingefallen und das sind authenthische Momente. Die stammen aber aus dem Frühjahr 1945, ich vermute aus dem Februar, das habe ich mir später erst erklärt. Ich stamme aus einem, aus dem Berliner Norden und wir waren, wir saßen genau in der Einflugschneise der Bomber. In der Dorfbraue [?] von Heiligensee heulte die Sirene auf, aber wir hatten schon so ein Ohr das wir die Bomber schon früher anfliegen hörten. Szene irgendwie Abends was weiss ich, 22 Uhr, meine Eltern gehen ins Bett, die nannten das “wir werden jetzt ins Bett steigen”, das war ein authenthischer Begriff dafür. Ich hatte am Fussende ein Gitterbett, stehe da drin, meine Eltern tauchen also in die Betten ab, und ich stehe und sage “Fieger”. Und mein Vater: “Ach quatsch, der Junge, wat der erzählt”, liegt sich in Bett, meine Mutter aber bleibt stehen, jeht an det Fenster, hebt diese Rolleau zu der Verdunkelung so ein bisschen weg und lauscht und sagt, “der Junge hat recht”. Und das war ein Zeitpunkt, da war ich gerade mal zweieinhalb Jahre alt. Und ich nehme an das ist auch der Grund warum sich das eingeprägt hat. Wir haben die [unclear] gepackt, raus in den Bunker.
Wir hatten einen Erdbunker im Garten. Das war eine halb unterirdische Anlage, aus Erde gebaut. Man ging ungefähr vier Stufen runter, die waren so mit Pflöcken und Ästen gesichert, also richtig Pfadfindermässig sah det aus. Und da konnten auf zwei langen Bänken, das war auch Erdbänke ebenso gesichert, konnten ungefähr fufzehn Personen sassen, da kamen auch die Nachbarn rüber, die hatten ja die, also nach dem man die Flieger hörte, ging dann die Sirene los. Also praktisch hatte ick die Vorinformationen schon. Deswegen war ich glau ick [unclear], hat sich das eingeprägt, der Junge macht wat richtig, war so eine Form von Anerkennung. Runter in den Keller, in diesen Erdbunker, Entschuldigung, und der ist, ein Erdbunker ist halb unterirdisch, oben druber ist eine Ladung von dünnen Stämmen und Ästen und dann Erde draufgeschichtet und dieses Mistding rettet niemandem vor einer Bombe, niemandem. Aber das ist den Vorortbewohnern eben aufgespatzt (?) worden und war teilweise auch Pflicht und manche haben es aus reinem Interesse gebaut, wir hatten sogar auch Helfer dabei soweit, das ist mir aber später erzählt worden. Und nun saß man also da unten und musste genau wie in den anderen Bunker abwarten bis also die Warnung aufhörte.
Und da erinnere ich mich an einen zweiten Punkt, und zwar ist das, eine Oma aus der Nachbarschaft, nämlich Frau Stark, die kam auch immer in diesen Bunker, wie auch andere Nachbarn und die saß da und die hatte sich, so waren die Berliner eben, die hatte sich einen Eimer Wasser mitgebracht, in dem Kartoffeln drin waren. Und die schälte die Kartoffeln während sie da unten saß, machte die wat nützliches. Dat war ja nur eine unproduktive Wartezeit. Und jetzt sah ich als kinderjunge wie die, während sie die Kartoffeln schälte und schnitt, sich eine Scheibe abschnitt und aß. Ich muss geguckt haben wie ein Auto den ich wusste von Zuhause, Kartoffeln ißt man gekocht, die ißt man nicht roh. Ich muss so dusselig geguckt haben dass mir Frau Stark eine von diesen Kartoffelscheiben angeboten hat. Und ich habe dann davon gekostet und dann war so das alle ins Lachen gerieten, auch det erinnere ick weil ich ein so dusseliges Gesicht gemacht haben muss. Det waren so eigentümliche Erfahrungen von einer Bunkersituation und Geborgenheit, in der man sich im Grunde genommen als Kind zu Hause fühlte. Also ich habe nicht diese höllischen Ereignisse der Innerstädte undsoweiter miterlebt, ich bin eben ein Vorort Produkt.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jörg Funfoff
Description
An account of the resource
Jörg Funfoff (b. 1942) recounts the experience of being a young boy at Heiligensee, a Berlin suburb; on the flying path of approaching bombers. Narrates how he was the first to hear the bombers approaching before they are in sight (a fact he was proud of) and the time he spent inside a makeshift shelter dug in the garden and covered with twigs and branches. Emphasises the uselessness of that kind of shelter and mentions an old woman from the neighbourhood who used to sit inside peeling potatoes.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:05:21 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#15496
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/50/Memoro 1031.2.mp3
88b700827a065365bf7920cc4a244493
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Brigitte Terboven: Ja, es war im Mai 44. In dieser Nacht mussten wir wieder mal, wie so oft, jede Nacht mussten wir ja raus, weil es Fliegeralarm gab, nicht nur tagsüber sondern insbesondere nachts kamen die Fliegeralarmen, die Bombergeschwader und flogen über uns weg, irgendwohin und in dieser Nacht war ein Angriff auf Essen. Das Ziel war eben die Stadt Essen, das Ruhrgebiet überhaupt. Ein Britischer, wie es hiess, Bomberverband kam und die in der nähe gelegene Flakbatterie durfte nicht schiessen, so hiess es später, weil Deutsche Nachtjäger in der Luft waren, nicht, da hätte ja dann möglicherweise ein Nachtjäger getroffen werden können. Ein Nachtjäger verfolgte einen Britischen Bomber und der, um schneller weg zu kommen, warf eine Luftmine einfach irgendwo runter und die kam 20 meter neben meinem Elternhaus nieder und das ganze Haus fiel zusammen wie ein Kartenhaus. Die Kellerdecke blieb zwar erhalten, aber in dieser Nacht war niemand von uns im Keller. Wir waren auf dem Wege in den Keller aber das war auch alles. Es sind vier Personen, meine Mutter, ein Ehepaar aus der Nachbarschaft und die Frau des Hauptmans dieser Flakbatterie ums Leben gekommen. Mich hat man rausgeholt. Ich soll, ich weiss es nicht mehr genau, ich war ja 14 Jahre alt, nach meiner Mutter gerufen haben, weil ich merkte, ich liege, aber ich liege nicht im Bett, ich liege, ich bin furchtbar eng, das weiss ich noch, und ich schmecke, ich habe Sand im Mund, oder Dreck, oder irgendwas, das habe ich gemerkt, das ist meine unmittelbare Erinnerung, und dann bin ich bewusstlos geworden und erst am nächsten Vormittag im Krankenhaus wieder zu mir gekommen. Und es hatt mich schon sehr gewundert dass mein Onkel, der Bruder meiner Mutter, im Verlauf des Vormittags kam, aber es gibt ja Zufälle im Leben und ich habe da nicht weiter drüber nachgedacht. Man hat mir die ersten acht Tage nicht sagen dürfen, das meine Mutter ums Leben gekommen war weil ich so schwer verletzt war, so das man nicht wusste, ob ich überhaupt überlebe.
Mein Vater war, wie gesagt, eingezogen und man kannte nur seine Feldpostnummer und hat an diese Feldpostnummer ein Telegramm geschickt, was er aber nicht bekommen hat. Mein Bruder war Luftwaffenhelfer, den hat ein Lehrer unserer Schule freundlicherweise geholt, als er erfuhr, was passiert war. Und mein Vater kam eine Woche später, da hätte meine Mutter Geburtstag gehabt, ihren 47sten, da hatte er es geschaft Urlaub zu bekommen und er kam, er stieg in Wuppertal in die Strassenbahn, damals fuhr noch eine Strassenbahn nach Cronenberg hoch, und traf einen Bekannten, der ihn kondolierte und mein Vater wusste überhaupt nicht, warum und weshalb und das war natürlich entsetzlich für meinen Vater. Mein Vater erst hat mir dann gesagt was wirklich passiert war. Mein Bruder hatte mich schon einige Tage vorher im Krankenhaus besucht. Als Luftwaffenhelfer trug er ja diese Hakenkreuzbinde mit, die rot-weiße Binde mit einem Hakenkreuz drauf, und auf dieser Binde hatte er einen Trauerflor, auch eine schwarze Binde. Und ich fragte ihn, “warum hast Du das schwarze Ding da drauf”, und er sagte, “damit es nicht dreckig wird”, so ganz beilaüfig, und sprach dann schnell von was anderem und ich habe ihm geglaubt. So naiv war man und man wehrte sich ja auch gegen tragische Erkenntnisse. Es war, das Leben war bedrolich, das wussten wir alle. Wir hatten kaum was zu essen, wir hatten im Wuppertal, als die Amerikaner dann ein Jahr später kamen, wären 1200 Kalorien pro Tag im Ruhrgebiet an Nahrungsmitteln auf den Lebensmittelkarten auszuteilen gewesen. Im Wuppertal war es besonders schlimm, da gab es nur 600 Kalorien pro Kopf. Und es war eine so schreckliche Zeit, die 44-45, die Zeit, da gab es so viele Tote zu beklagen, nicht nur gefallene Soldaten, sondern auch Bombentote, so das die Todesanzeigen in der Zeitung etwa 6-7 cm im Quadrat gross sein durften, weil einfach der Platz nicht ausreichte in den Zeitungen. Und jeder gefallene Soldat, und jeder Bombentote hatte dieses eiserne Kreuz in der Todesanzeige, links oben, glaub ich, oder rechts oben, das weiss ich jetzt nun nicht mehr, in der Ecke was dieses eiserne Kreuz angebracht. Ich weiss nicht, wie viele Seiten in der Zeitung voll waren mit diesen kleinen Todesanzeigen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Brigitte Terboven
Description
An account of the resource
Brigitte Terboven (b. 1930) recalls the bombing of Essen and the dropping of an air mine by a British bomber which was trying to evade a German night fighter. The bomb hit the ground about 20 meters from her home which collapsed like a house of cards. Remembers the death of four people, including her mother; how she was severely injured, barely survived and kept in the dark about her mother’s death for a week. Describes the attempt to bet in touch with her father with the news of his wife’s death and how he was informed only a week later, coming home on her mother’s birthday. Emphasises wartime hardships: food rationing; daily calories intake dropping from the notional 1200 calories to 600; reduced spaces for obituaries in newspapers.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-09-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:06:25 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#1031
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Luftwaffenhelfer
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/PPirovanoG1701.1.jpg
f08cd474f8b3abb5a6bba59fc5a0eb22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/APirovanoG171113.2.mp3
44fd6d3723b29056871c2fb2c80da476
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pirovano, Giuseppe
G Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-13
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pirovano, G
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: Prova? Funziona? Sì. Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistato è Giuseppe Pirovano. Nella stanza è presente, in qualità dell’assistente di Zeno, Simone Biffi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervista ha luogo in Via Gian Rinaldo Carli al numero 34 a Milano il giorno 12 Novembre 2017. Ok, possiamo iniziare. Allora inizio con delle domande di riscaldamento. Qual è il ricordo più lontano che ha, più remoto di tutti?
GP: Diciamo, ma qualche ricordo già prima della guerra. Quindi io sono del ’31 per cui ho dei ricordi verso gli anni ’39-’40. Quegli anni lì ricordo benissimo. L’aspetto che mi è rimasto in testa è la situazione qui di Affori ma sicuramente rispecchia la situazione generale dove il Fascismo teneva in iscacco se possiamo dire, la popolazione. Esempio. Allora c’eran solo le osterie e mio padre andava all’osteria qualche volta, non sempre. Era anche lui uno che gli piaceva bere il solito bicchiere di vino coi compagni, con gli amici, e ogni tanto mi portava, anzi ero io che gli correvo dietro, avevo otto, nove anni quindi, dieci anni. E mi ricordo la situazione, mi è rimasto impresso alcune cose. Per esempio, mi ricordo che sulle pareti dell’osteria dove c’era il, dove si batteva, dove batteva la spalla della sedia c’eran tutte le parole d’ordine: ‘Qui non si parla di politica’, ‘Viva il Duce’ e tutte queste parole d’ordine che potete immaginare quali erano. Ma questo è il meno. Ricordo benissimo che c’erano due, due esseri, due signori che giravano il rione vestiti proprio con la tuta da fascista, camicia nera, pantaloni, in bicicletta, sempre loro due, uno si chiamava Marinverni, l’altro Cavallini, e con la pistola sempre addosso. Facevano il giro delle osterie e ogni, alzavano la voce, la gente stava in silenzio, loro facevano il cosidetto bauscia, disevano a Milan, e quindi in alcuni casi hanno provato anche a sparare in alto, tanto per intimorire la gente. Questi erano proprio i manovali, me li ricordo bene, mi sono rimasti in mente anche i nomi. Poi naturalmente c’erano quelli vestiti bene, quelli che erano alla sede del Fascio qui ad Affori e che loro si facevano solo vedere nei luoghi delle parate quando c’era qualche manifestazione nel rione. Ecco questo, sono i ricordi più lontani, di prima della guerra.
ZG: Ma lei si ricorda perché questa camicie nere intimorivano? Quali erano le motivazioni? C’erano delle cause scatenanti?
GP: Non saprei dire la motivazione. Sicuramente evitavano, volevano evitare, diciamo, che qualcuno si comportasse da antifascista, questo per loro era una cosa che non poteva esistere, per cui controllavano, vedevano se c’era qualcuno di questo tipo. Naturalmente c’erano, ma però non posso dire che alloro lo sapevo, li avevo conosciuti nel, nel dopoguerra chiaramente, negli anni ’45-’46, c’erano gli antifascisti e c’erano ma non si muovevano, non si. Qualcuno di questi venivano anche portati in prigione quando c’era le visite dei gerarchi fascisti, di Mussolini in particolare qualche volta che era arrivato a Milano, però loro non li conoscevo, ma penso che lo scopo principale era quello di tenere sotto controllo la situazione insomma.
ZG: Senta, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
GP: Mio padre era un operaio, lavorava alla Ceretti e Tanfani, una ditta molto importante. Era una ditta ausiliaria si diceva allora, cioè ausiliaria nel senso che producevano cose che servivano per la guerra e quindi. Non le armi ma le strutture sono le gru, gli impianti funiviari, gli impianti che potevano servire per l’esercito, quindi lavorava in uno di quei. Mia madre era casalinga. Eravamo tre fratelli, due fratelli e una sorella.
ZG: Si ricorda un po’ della vita prima della guerra, in famiglia, a casa?
GP: Mah, prima della guerra ricordo che mio padre lavorava dieci ore al giorno e comunque, riusciva comunque a mantenere la famiglia ecco. Mia madre non ha mai lavorato da sposata e non saprei dire precisamente perché. L’età era poca e quindi eravamo, non eravamo in grado di capire per bene le cose. Però posso dire che riuscivamo a vivere, naturalmente con sacrifici perché il mangiare era quello che era, non è che eravamo. E ricordo in particolare che i giorni di Natale, mentre alcuni bambini avevano la fortuna di avere una famiglia un po’ benestante, meglio di noi, noi non avevamo niente insomma, c’erano i soliti pacchetto di mandarino con la noce con quelle poche cose di frutta. Ecco, quello che ricordo è un po’ questo. Facevamo fatica, vivevamo con fatica, ma vivevamo.
ZG: Lei e i suoi fratelli giocavate?
GP: Sì, sì, giocavamo, giocavamo. Mi ricordo che io ero il maggiore facevo, costruivo i monopattini, andavo da, c’era uno stracciaio vicino a casa dove abitavamo, noi abitavamo qui in, qui vicino insomma, un centinaio di metri. E andavo a comperare, ce li regalava praticamente, soldi noi non ne avevamo, le ruote a sfere che raccogliendo i rottami che questo signore c’era dentro anche queste cose qui, noi lo sapevamo e andavamo là e facevo il carrello, il carrellotto con il legno, la, col manubrio, bulloni per fare da perno, la ruota a sfera più grossa che riuscivamo a trovare e facevamo il carrellotto che ci spingevamo in giro oppure il monopattino, con due ruote a scorta. Per dire uno dei giochi, poi giochevamo tante altre cose siam bambini, giocavamo, giocavamo, questo.
ZG: Ehm, lei si ricorda qualche altro gioco in particolare?
GP: Giocavamo, ci allora, ci mettevamo carponi uno dietro l’altro e saltavamo sulla schiena. Chi saltava più, due persone, tre persone. Giocavamo alla, noi lo chiamavamo il Pirlo, pezzo di legno così che mettevamo per terra, picchiavamo sulla punta e il legno andava lontano, quindi chi andava più lontano vinceva. E così insomma questi più o meno erano i giochi che facevamo.
ZG: Senta, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
GP: Sì. Scoppiata la guerra, mi ricordo vagamente del discorso di Mussolini, stranamente. Però stranamente era, tutte le radio parlavano di questo. E mi ricordo vagamente, vagamente col senno di poi, l’ho sentito attraverso i tele, i giornali eccetera ma allora ricordo vagamente per dire la verità. Non è che potessi capire il significato, perché insomma io avevo, nel ’40, 10 giugno del ’40 avevo nove anni, capite che un ragazzo non, però ricordo ma poi. Diciamo quello che posso dire è come ho vissuto io la guerra, ecco questo.
ZG: Ecco sì, voglio fare giusto una domanda prima che era, gli adulti gli parlarono della guerra? I suoi genitori o famigliari a lei vicini, amici dei genitori?
GP: Beh, mio padre un po’, mio padre, mio padre parlava un po’ qualche volta però non si sbottonava. Mio padre non era un politico ma era un antifascista, questo sicuramente, questo, lo posso testimoniare. Politico no perché poi anche lui era un operaio nel senso che non aveva, scuole, sì, fatto le elementari ma non aveva cultura politica. Ma era un antifascista e ogni tanto qualche cosa me lo [sic] diceva. Era un tipo che ogni tanto mi ricordo che prendeva in giro qualche fascista della prima ora, con dell’ironia non con della, diciamo discussioni politiche, si guardava bene perché non avrebbe potuto. Però mi ricordo che c’era uno che aveva fatto la Marcia su Roma, abitava vicino a noi e mai poi era un uomo anziano, non è che fosse, non era un uomo cattivo ma era un fascista. Mi ricordo, eravamo forse nel ’41 quando, quando venivamo, eravamo in Africa ed eravamo sconfitti e allora mi ricordo precisamente, una volta visto fuori in strada e gli diceva: ‘Ohè, Scaiett’, si chiamava Scaietti, ‘Scaiett, andem ben, eh!’. Faceva così, il segno della vanga. Vangava per dire che andavamo indietro. Lo prendeva in giro, per dire. Era comunque un tipo abbastanza, le conosceva le cose, e qualche volta si azzardava anche con gli amici a parlare, ma molto, molto poco, non è che era un antifascista combattente, no, non lo era. E naturalmente poi ho saputo che in fabbrica c’era l’organizzazione clandestina ma questo l’ho saputo dopo e quindi.
ZG: Dopo torneremo anche su questo. Quindi lei non si ricorda nulla in particolare proprio di come suo padre invece parlava a lei della guerra e del fascismo?
GP: No, ma, no, soltanto qualche volta, quello che succedeva, lo diceva in casa ecco. Ma no, devo dire di no. Per dire la verità.
ZG: Eh per caso avevate parenti al fronte?
GP: Al fronte c’erano i miei cugini, i miei cugini sì. Figli della sorella di mio padre e sono, due son tornati tutti e due, sì e altri cugini, altri cugini non me ne ricordo, che erano al fronte.
ZG: Ok. Senta invece, si ricorda dei bombardamenti?
GP: Eh beh certo. Eh lì vorrei parlare un po’. Allora partiamo dal primo bombardamento avvenuto a Milano il 24 Ottobre del ’42, primo bombardamento a Milano. Premetto che a Milano era già stato fatto un bombardamento nel ’40 appena scoppiata la guerra, me lo ricordo bene perché mio padre con la bicicletta, noi abitavamo ad Affori, abitiamo tutt’ora ad Affori, siamo andati a vedere i bombardamenti, per dire incoscienti e incapaci di giudicare, penso che era normale. Allora con la bicicletta, io con la mia bicicletta, mio fratello con la sua biciclettina siamo andati in Via Thaon di Revel, sapete dov’è? Piazzale Maciachini, avanti, lì c’è la Chiesa della Fontana. Il bombardamento è avvenuto con qualche bomba incendiaria che ha toccato la chiesa e la casa di fronte. Siamo andati subito quando l’abbiamo saputo, mio padre c’ha portato, e abbiamo visto di cosa si trattava. Proprio due spezzoni erano apparecchi, erano i francesi, perché noi abbiamo dichiarato guerra ai francesi e quindi quelli si sono vendicati subito ma ridicolmente insomma. Era un bombardamento ridicolo eh. Incendiarie hanno rotto una soffitta, un pezzo di, vabbè, comunque, questo è [unclear], però non è più stato fatto nessun bombardamento. Il primo a Milano è avvenuto il 24 Ottobre ’42. Io ero in quel momento nel cortile di casa mia, in una stanzetta del cortile con cinque, sei amici ragazzi, sentiamo sto casino, sto bombard, sto rumore, sparare e il rumore degli aerei. Usciamo e siamo rimasti lì, era le cinque della sera, quindi iniziava il tramonto. Si vedevano tutti i traccianti della antiaerea, qui nella, c’era l’antiaerea piazzata, là nella Cava Lucchini, vicino proprio a noi, le mitragliatrici e si vedevano gli apparecchi che passavano, che urlavano, erano gli aerei, apparecchi inglesi naturalmente perché i primi bombardamenti sono stati fatti dagli inglesi ’42-’43. Gli americani non c’erano ancora e quindi, vedevamo chiaramente mollare le bombe, magari appena dopo perché appena dopo magari alla Bovisa sugli scali ferroviari eccetera nei dintorni. Noi ad Affori non siamo stati colpiti. E quindi questo è stato il primo bombardamento che ho visto coi miei occhi gli apparecchi che mollavano le bombe. Ricordo il rumore degli apparecchi che poi dopo li ho risentiti in qualche documentario ma li ricordo bene. Allora il giorno seguente, uno o due giorni, mio padre ha caricato la famiglia, ci ha portati fuori Milano, sfollati diciamo, eravamo i primi sfollati, perché poi Milano ha avuto molti sfollati proprio a causa dei bombardamenti. Allora il discorso è questo, noi con la famiglia eravamo sfollati in provincia di Brescia, in campagna, e lui lavorava tutti i giorni da solo a casa, ecco. Veniva tutte le domeniche, quasi tutti i sabati e la domenica a trovarci, prendeva il treno, veniva a trovarci. Però era il ’42, la guerra è finita nel ’45, e io saltuariamente venivo a casa con lui, ’43, ’44 quindi in permanenza non ero a Milano però venivo a casa con lui ogni tanto. E quando ero a casa non sono riuscito a dormire una notte perché c’eran sempre i bombardamenti, c’eran sempre gli allarmi. Su casa nostra non abbiamo avuto i bombardamenti ma le case circostanti, i rioni, Milano insomma è stata distrutta, lo sapete meglio di me. Quindi io ho vissuto nei rifugi qualche, alla notte ed era un dramma veramente: il terrore, la paura. Chi andava nei rifugi era, in genere le donne, ma tutti insomma, mio padre nei rifugi non c’è mai andato perché lui diceva: ‘Mi la fin del rat la fu no!’, la fine del topo non la voglio fare. E allora, quando io ero qui qualche volta mi è capitato di andare nei rifugi perché se era di giorno, o comunque un orario che mio padre era a lavorare e io ero solo, e quindi andavo nei rifugi non potevo, ma quando c’era mio padre lui mi prendeva come al primo allarme mi metteva sulla canna della bicicletta e correvamo fuori perché qui ad Affori adesso è costruito molto ma allora era campagna perché era l’ultimo rione della città e quindi avevamo molta campagna e mi portava nei fossi, nella campagna per evitare i bombardamenti. Ma diciamo che ho vissuto i bombardamenti nei rifugi quando venivano qui. E mio padre, dicevo, veniva ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni settimana, al massimo ogni quindici giorni veniva a trovarci. Il giorno del 10 settembre ’44 era un giorno che tornava a Milano della visita che aveva fatto a noi e quando tornava a Milano il treno arrivava generalmente dopo le dieci di sera, c’era il coprifuoco alle dieci di sera, quindi cosa succedeva? Lui dormiva alla stazione centrale, al mattino alle sei prendeva la bicicletta e andava a Bovisa a lavorare, Bovisa è qui vicino. La sera del 10 settembre il treno è, è arrivato in orario, ha fatto in tempo a prendere la bicicletta e andare a casa. È andato a casa, diciamo è salito in casa per disfare la valigia, le bombe cadevano. Nel cortile distrutta la casa. Cosa succedeva? Le bombe cadevano e quindi lui è sceso perché non poteva stare lì perché andavano giù, sentiva le case che andavano giù e anche la nostra dove abitavamo cominciava a crollare. Allora molta gente nel, che scendeva nel cortile perché era un gruppo di case, allora molta gente andava nel rifugio ma il rifugio era la solita cantina che costruivano dove si metteva il vino, si metteva, quindi non era un rifugio, era una cantina. E quindi mio padre faceva la parte delle persone che scappavano, oltretutto non era in grado di contenere tutte le persone, molta gente scappava. Mio padre è scappato con un gruppo di dieci persone. Fatto venti metri, è arrivato a un bivio, scappavano, cercavano di andare in un rifugio più sicuro, loro pensavano. Ha fatto venti metri, erano un gruppo di dodici persone, tredici persone, una bomba è caduta nel centro. Quindi strage completa. Mio padre è rimasto sotto i bombardamenti in quell’occasione lì. E, scusate,
ZG: Se vuole interrompiamo.
GP: [starts crying] cosa succede, c’erano i miei amici, un ragazzo col collo tagliato, mio padre combinazione non aveva niente ma lo spostamento d’aria gli ha spaccato il cuore. E però una parte di persone si è fermato nell’androne, nell’androne della casa si sono salvati, in cantina si sono salvati e quelli che sono usciti sono morti tutti. Tenete conto che la mia casa, la casa dove abitavo, era ai, dietro la chiesa, in linea d’aria trenta, quaranta metri, perché proprio era sull’angolo del giardino del parroco. A sinistra c’era la scuola elementare dove io ho frequentato la prima, la seconda e la terza. Alla mia destra, quella via, c’era l’asilo infantile con cinque suore. Ebbene, hanno distrutto l’asilo, distrutto la scuola, distrutta metà la casa dove abitavo. Hanno danneggiato la chiesa, per dire quel gruppo di queste case. Poi più avanti hanno distrutto dei caseggiati completi, la Cur di Restei, la chiamavamo e tante altre cose lì in giro ma poi anche tanti altri. Quindi questo è il 10 settembre ’44. Mio padre è morto e noi siamo rimasti là in campagna dove mia madre è stata assunta, in combinazione c’era una ditta di tabacchi, raccoglievano il tabacco, lavoravano il tabacco, mia madre è stata assunta lì e siamo riusciti per tirare avanti con lo stipendio di mia madre. Quindi siamo stati lì fin dopo, fino il ’45 e mi ricordo l’ultimo episodio che voglio dire. Il 25 aprile del ’45, ero ancora lì naturalmente, e io seguivo un po’ gli ultimi avvenimenti, ormai avevo quattordici anni capivo un po’ di più insomma. E son corso sul, sono andato sulla strada principale Asola-Brescia perché in quei momenti lì i tedeschi cominciavano a scappare. Ora sono corso là con i miei amici grandi, giovanotti che ricordo si preparavano già qualche giorno prima, armeggiare, trovavano qualche arma, qualche cosa del genere. Sono andato lì per trovarli, insomma io volevo esserci. Sono arrivato là, non ho trovato nessuno in quel momento lì al mattino presto. Però mi sono trovato di fronte un gruppo di tedeschi, quindici, circa quindici tedeschi, potevano essere quattordici o sedici, ma era più o meno un gruppo così, un gruppo di tedeschi in bicicletta armati di tutto punto, bombe a mano e mitra, in bicicletta con sacche pesanti. E ormai ero lì, non sapevo più cosa fare e ho detto: ‘Ma sono un ragazzo, forse non mi dicono niente’. Invece il capo lì: ‘Komma her, komma her’, mi ha messo in mezzo per attraversare il paese. L’intenzione era quella naturalmente di avere l’ostaggio in centro in modo che, avevano paura dei partigiani per cui se c’era qualcuno e attraversiam, per attarversare il paese. Naturalmente io il paese lo conoscevo come le mie tasche, e poi avevo quattordici anni quindi, e intanto che andavamo non so se per incoscienza o non sentivo paura, non è che avessi paura, stavo pensando come facevo a scappare. E infatti prima di uscire dal paese conoscevo bene come fare avevo visto, avevo pensato e quindi con un salto sono uscito dai ranghi. Immaginatevi questa gente qui, stanca, affamata, carica come era, non mi ha neanche visto insomma. Sono scappato e quelli se ne sono andati. Sono stati fermati dai partigiani in paese dopo. Io sono tornato là e ho trovato finalmente i ragazzi che si sono messi là, mi hanno messo assieme a uno con la mitragliatrice, io dovevo metterci su le cartuccie, le scatole e comunque eravamo lì a fermare i tedeschi. Diciamo che la giornata è passata così. Lì fermavano i tedeschi, li mettevano nella scuola poi dopo sarebbero stati mandati non lo so e, eh glielo ripeto ero là. E se venivano le macchine era più pericoloso dicevano se veniva qualche macchina. Allora c’era un incrocio rispetto alla provinciale, veniva una macchina dalla provincia di, era da Castel Goffredo provincia di Mantova, e io ero su quella strada lì dietro l’angolo con questo qui. Sento la macchina, sentiamo la macchina, guardo e tra le fronde della siepe avanti centocinquanta metri vedo un elmetto che non è tedesco quello non è un tedesco, non sono tedeschi allora metto la mano sulla mitragliatrice prima che quello mi, [unclear] tedesco, e arriva la camionetta degli americani. Era il primo americano che vedevo e così abbiamo visto sta camionetta, è arrivato lì, ha fatto quattro chiacchiere, sai quei classici, quattro persone, due di dietro sdraiati con le, che poi s’è visto nei giornali che c’hanno fatto vedere ma li era, mi ricordo classico, quattro parole che noi non capivamo niente e con la cicca americana e se ne sono andati subito. Ecco, questa è la mia giornata del 25 aprile ‘45. E poi naturalmente c’è tutta una storia del dopoguerra molto importante ma che non c’entra con.
ZG: Senta, io le volevo fare qualche domanda per tornare un attimo su qualche passaggio. La prima era, nel ’42 lei ha detto che c’è stato il bombardamento, quello degli inglesi.
GP: Sì.
ZG: Il primo che ha assistito. Ha detto che aveva sentito le bombe ma non ha parlato della sirena antiaerea. In quell’occasione lì, era suonato o non era suonato?
GP: No, assolutamente no. Le ripeto, noi siamo usciti perché abbiamo sentito rumore ma il, l’allarme aereo non era suonato. Nel modo più assoluto. Poi, voglio dire, l’allarme aereo raramente suonava. Non c’era, non c’era organizzazione. Gli unici un po’ organizzati erano la cosidetta UNPA, erano dei civili incaricati in ogni caseggiato per essere, diciamo era come un, come si dice, quelli che abbiamo adesso, la protezione civile ecco, faceva un po’ di queste cose qui. Allora c’era quello del caseggiato più anziano, più bravo, faceva questo lavoro qui. Tutta roba diciamo, organizzata e no, insomma. Allora se c’era qualcuno di buona volontà, se sentiva l’aereo, suonava, perché c’era la tromba, la sirena che faceva a mano, faceva andare a mano. Ma raramente suonava prima dei bombardamenti. Sì, il primo bombardamento assolutamente non suonava. Poi in seguito, mi dicevano i miei amici, perché ci sono quelli che erano qui tutti i giorni, qualche volta suonava ma di rado. In genere arrivavano gli apparecchi e bombardavano. Mio padre, quella volta lì lo stesso, arrivato gli apparecchi, bombardavano e son scappati, ma. Allarme niente, non c’era organizzazione!
ZG: Il rifugio in cui lei scappava di solito, era la cantina di casa sua?
GP: Sì, sono andato anche in altri rifugi. Per esempio, c’era un rifugio fatto, sempre qui, in un posto dove c’era un prato fra le case, era un rifugio che avevano fatto, scavato due metri, se dico due metri potevano essere due e cinquanta, forse anche tre, non lo so, no si passava appena appena, due metri, coperto da tavole, dico tavole. Sopra le tavole la terra che avevano scavato l’han messa su sopra, quindi rifugio per modo di dire. Andava bene se c’era qualche scheggia in giro perché bombardavano ma era una cosa inutile, assolutamente, non era rifugio. E per il resto erano cantine. Non c’erano rifugi, in zona parlo eh, perché poi in altri posti avevano fatto anche dei rifugi. Ma a Affori assolutamente non ce n’erano.
ZG: Come passava il tempo nel rifugio, se lo ricorda?
GP: Seduti, c’erano le donnine che pregavano, c’erano i bambini che piangevano, e io mi ricordo che, ero pieno di paura e quando ero in rifugio, ero solo naturalmente, mio padre non c’era. Ero, tremavo e pieno di paura, poi sa in quell’ambiente lì, donne che gridano, che urlano, i bambini che urlano, e così, è una tragedia insomma. Non era una cosa molto bella.
ZG: Senta, oltre alle preghiere, ogni tanto magari avevate altri metodi per passare il tempo, tipo qualcuno cantava magari o?
GP: No, no, no, io non ricordo. Beh la preghiera dico perché qualcuna che c’era, che faceva la preghiera, non è che, che fosse collettivo il fatto. Qualcuna si metteva a pregare, le donne anziane, me lo ricordo ma, no, anche perché nel rifugio non è che ci stavamo tanto. Cioè i bombardamenti potevano durare mezz’ora, l’allarme diciamo poteva durare mezz’ora, al massimo un’ora ma generalmente finiva molto prima insomma ecco. Che gli apparecchi non potevano star su le ore, bombardavano e se ne andavano. Magari si ripeteva ma non molto a lungo. Nei rifugi stavamo poco tempo, mezz’ora.
ZG: E senta invece dov’è che è sfollato, quando suo padre l’ha portato via?
GP: Sul confine fra Brescia e Mantova, in campagna, se posso [unclear] anche il paese Acquafredda si chiama, Acquafredda, c’è ancora eh!
ZG: E come mai vi ha portato là esattamente?
GP: Perché c’erano i genitori di mia madre, con un fratello di mia madre. E quindi abitavamo tutti assieme nella casa dove abitavano questi. Il, loro non erano contadini, mio nonno era una falegname e mio zio faceva l’operatore delle macchine, le trebbiatrici, le macchine che usavano per la terra, le aggiustava, le, insomma faceva quel lavoro lì.
ZG: E da quelle parti bombardamenti non ce ne sono mai stati?
GP: No, assolutamente, in campagna no, abbiamo vissuto bene.
ZG: Perché ogni tanto tornava a Milano con suo padre?
GP: Eh, perché ogni tanto, io, papà, vengo anche io a Milano oppure era lui ma non è che son tornato, forse due o tre volte a, tre volte a Milano. Però, ragazzi! Erano tragedie tutte le volte. Era una tragedia perché era sempre in giro. Mi son trovato in quel rifugio lì che le dicevo, mi son trovato scalzo. Quindi era, ’43 forse, o primavera ’44, insomma era terrore, scappavamo, eran momenti brutti insomma, non, una cosa che, da non augurarsi guardi.
ZG: Senta invece, un’altra cosa che volevo chiedere era, con la scuola, lei quando ha sfollato per la prima volta, stava già frequentando la scuola media?
GP: No, allora, io ho frequentato la scuola che hanno abbattuto lì quando hanno bombardato mio padre, è morto mio padre, ho fatto prima, seconda e terza, la quarta sono andato a farla nelle scuole nuove, sempre qui ad Affori. Allora la quarta, io sono stato bocciato, sono stato bocciato perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione. La mia maestra, maestra Giacchero, era una fascista di quelle terribili, clerico-fascista, e io non ho risposto a domande di religione perché avevo fatto, avevo tranciato i miei rapporti con la chiesa quando mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto. Mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto, parliamo forse nove, dieci anni, allora c’erano chierichetti così piccoli e mi ricordo che a un battesimo un signore ha tirato fuori i soldi, ha dato i soldi al prete, ha detto: ‘Questi qui sono i suoi, questi qui sono per il batte, e questi qui per i chierichetti’. Il prete ha messo in tasca i soldi e non ha dato niente, né a me né a nessun altro, ha tenuto tutti i soldi dei chierichetti. Da quel giorno lì, per me, sono andato a casa ho detto: ‘Mamma, io in chiesa non ci vado più’, ‘Perché?’ ‘Perché mi ha rubato i soldi’ mi ricordo. [unclear] ‘Ma no, ma’, basta, e io ho chiuso. Quindi per me la chiesa non esiste, non esiste da quel giorno là insomma. Poi tutto va bene, tutto [unclear], per me non è un problema, è un problema [unclear], ma. Quindi sono stato bocciato in quarta, ho rifatto la quarta qui e [mobile phone rings] scusatemi.
ZG: Interrompo, non si preoccupi.
PG: Sì?
ZG: Allora, dopo la pausa riprendiamo l’intervista.
PG: Ecco, ehm, quindi ho rifatto la quarta. Il mio maestro era un centurione, un ex-centurione della milizia. Allora e io ero il caposquadra per dire che sono stato bocciato non perché ero un asino, anche se non ero una gran scienza per dire ma io sapevo le mie cose.Sono bocciato proprio perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione e il mio maestro dopo qualche giorno mi ha fatto caposquadra. Era un centurione della milizia e lui voleva avere una squadra organizzatissima. Aveva fatto sette persone, sette ragazzi capisquadra, io ero caposquadra ma ne aveva fatte altri sei che ognuno aveva dato un compito ma soprattutto in palestra ci portava. Eravamo organizzati in un modo eccellente. Io avevo la mia squadra che comandavo a bacchetta: ‘Avanti marsch, destra, sinist, obliqua sinist’. Ero bravo, era il maestro che mi aveva insegnato. E quell’anno lì, doveva essere il ’41 o il ’42, ’41 sicuro o fine ’40, poi facciamo i conti e magari, sì ’42, ’41, ’42 sono andato via, e abbiamo fatto un raduno, hanno fatto un raduno all’arena di Milano di quattrocento classi elementari, la quarta e la quinta, per fare gli esercizi ginnici. Far vedere che erano i giovani, i Balilla che, come eran bravi i Balilla eccetera. E io ho portato la mia classe, siamo stati bravi, eravamo sicuramente fra i primi perché i nostri ci tenevano. Poi per c’han fatto uscire dall’arena. Uscendo dall’arena c’erano dei tavoloni, son stati cinque o sei tavoloni, non lo so perché eravamo in tanti. Ogni tavolone c’era un gerarca dietro lì, un fascistone e io ero il caposquadra, dovevo andare a rispondere, a rispondere alle domande che queste persone mi facevano. Sono arrivato là con la mia squadra: ’Avanti marsch, destra, sinistra, tac!’ ‘Senti’, mi dice, ‘chi ha dichiarato guerra? L’Italia all’Inghilterra o l’Inghilterra alla Germania?’. Sono rimasto un po’. Non lo sapevo, non lo sapevo anche se, che magari era stato detto però non quel momento, non lo sapevo. Però pensavo ragazzi la guerra è una cosa brutta, non siamo noi italiani che la vogliamo, nella mia mente, e ho detto, no è stata l’Inghilterra. ‘Bravo asino! Vai via con la tua classe!’. Questo per dire [laughs] come eravamo in quei tempi là. E poi naturalmente io ho passato la quarta, sono andato in quinta, nel ’42 già avevo perso un anno, nel ’42 a settembre, a ottobre siamo scappati. Perciò ho ripreso la quinta là in campagna, ho fatto la quinta là. Dopodiché là non c’erano più le scuole. Per fare la, per andare a scuola bisognava fare tredici chilometri fino a, un paese importante, paese grosso, ma allora come facevo? In casa c’era una sola bicicletta, a parte il fatto che fare tredici chilometri in bicicletta, col Pippo che ogni tanto sparava addirittura sui cavalli e carretti che c’erano sulla strada, hai mai sentito, avete sentito parlare del Pippo? Ma poi c’era una bicicletta, l’usava mio zio per andare a lavorare. Quindi io, finita la quarta, la quinta elementare, non ho più fatto la scuola. Anzi, devo dire che, allora per andare alle scuole medie bisognava fare, come si, gli esami di stato. E sono riuscito a fare gli esami di stato con la mia maestra - che voleva che li facessi - e con altre sei ragazze, la figlia del sindaco, del podestà, allora del podestà, la figlia del suo secondo era il caseario, aveva il caseificio, la figlia del fabbro e altre tre ragazze dei tre più grossi fittavoli del paese. Allora io ero quello che aveva, che mi vestivo con i pantaloni neri di tela stracciati con le pezze sul sedere e loro erano le figlie, erano le sei ragazze dei ricchi del paese. Allora sono riuscito ad andare, a fare gli esami di stato in quel paese e, non mi viene in mente va bene il paese, con cavallo e carrozza, cavallo e la carrozza con queste ragazze. Siamo, eravamo bene istruiti, siam passati tutti e però io non ho più potuto far scuola. Questo è quanto, questa è la mia scuola che ho fatto. Naturalmente poi ho avuto nel dopoguerra la fortuna di fare altro tipo di scuola e via ma così, scuola era questa, la mia scuola.
ZG: Senta, a proposito della maestra che diceva, quella qua a Milano. Allora innanzitutto prima un’altra domanda: la chiesa in cui lei faceva il chierichetto, è quella che poi è stata bombardata?
GP: Sì. La chiesa qui ad Affori è stata danneggiata, diciamo la parte posteriore sì.
ZG: E invece diceva che la sua maestra delle elementari qua a Milano era terribile. Mi sa spiegare il perché? Si ricorda qualche episodio?
GP: No, era semplicemente cattiva. Quando io le dico che era una fascista ed era fascio-clericale perché, metta assieme queste due cose, si può immaginare che cosa ne viene fuori. Io poi nel dopoguerra mi ricordo che, mi ricordo, c’era un amico che abitava qui anche lui che ha, con questa maestra che la conoscevo bene, aveva qualche anno più di me, e mi, ‘Eh, la Giacchero!’ ne abbiamo parlato ‘La Giacchero’, fa ‘volevamo andare a prenderla a casa, ma poi mi hanno sconsigliato, l’abbiamo lasciata perdere’. Per dire che era proprio una signora che si distingueva dalle altre per essere così cattiva e fascista insomma. Ecco questo. Non tutte erano così naturalmente ma quella, combinazione, l’ho avuta io. È andata così.
ZG: Invece, cambiando discorso, lei si ricorda dei tedeschi? A parte per quell’episodio del 25 aprile?
GP: Sì, sì, mi ricordo dei tedeschi. Mi ricordo dei tedeschi perché i tedeschi avevano occupato l’Alta Italia tutti i paesi, non soltanto dei presidi. Tutti i paesi piccoli e grandi erano presidiati. Noi avevamo lì, abitava vicino a dove abitavo io, nello stesso cortile avevamo un, era un sottoufficiale, era un sottoufficiale o ufficiale non di grande grado comunque abitava lì, quel tedesco lì. Poi c’erano altri, c’è un capitano, c’era dei piccoli presidi insomma in altre parti del paese ma io mi ricordo c’era questo capitano che aveva sequestrato un cavallo bello, che correva a cavallo nel viale del paese, per dire un ricordo perché questo. C’erano tedeschi c’erano anche lì. Dappertutto.
ZG: Che impressione le facevano?
GP: Boh, niente, diciamo che, mi ricordo che mio fratello è andato a rubargli la marmellata in un, c’era in questo caseggiato c’era un magazzino che mio nonno faceva il falegname. Quando sono arrivati i tedeschi han sequestrato tutto, mio nonno non ha fatto più il falegname e loro mettevano lì le vettovaglie e mio fratello con un altro ragazzo sono andati a rubargli le scatole di marmellata eccetera. Si vede che si sono accorti che c’erano, non lo so, e, e questo qui si è accorto e ci ha dato tante scudisciate che [laughs] insomma ecco. Però come persona non era corretta, non, con noi non ha mai detto niente, mai fatto niente. Ci tenevano a stare tranquilli, stavano bene lì quel paese.
ZG: Senta, tornando a quel episodio del 25 aprile, lei aveva già avuto contatti con dei partigiani?
GP: No. Chiariamo bene. I contatti che avevo io erano con gli imboscati, che era diverso. Nel senso che, in quel paese lì i partigiani non c’erano, non avevano niente a che vedere, erano nei paesi più grandi erano verso le colline, verso le montagne. Ma però c’erano gli imboscati voglio dire il. Nel ’43, l’8 settembre, l’esercito si sfasciava e ricordo che molti venivano nelle case, ricordo benissimo venivano anche là, si toglievano le divise e cercavano qualche giacca, qualche pantalone per far vedere che non erano militari, per sfuggire alla Decima MAS che già cominciava a sentirsi. E non i partigiani, solo gli imboscati, cioè coloro che avevano la possibilità di imboscarsi nelle soffitte, nelle campagne, eccetera, ecco. Però c’era qualcuno, c’era qualcuno che si preparava, che non era, era sì un imboscato, non è andato con i partigiani, non è andato con la Decima MAS, con la RSI italiana, i repubblichini, ma che però erano imboscati. Però qualcuno si preparava in quel 25 aprile e siccome io li conoscevo tutti, conoscevo morte, conoscevo morte, vite e miracoli del paese e quindi li conoscevo e sapevo che andavano a provare i mitra, mi ricordo che preparavano le armi per l’eventuale, ma questo gli ultimi giorni ecco, conoscevo questi imboscati diciamo. Partigiani veri e propri li ho conosciuti dopo ma non lì.
ZG: E quando queste persone qua si preparavano con le armi lei ha assistiteva?
GP: Sì, una volta mi ricordo che ero andato assieme e sparavano alle piante per vedere l’effetto che facevano insomma, per vedere le armi se andavano bene. C’avevano un mitra, c’avevano delle pistole, quel gruppo lì insomma che conoscevo io.
ZG: E poi il 25 aprile insomma andando là ha incontrato questo gruppo di partigiani.
GP: Questi gruppi di imboscati, c’erano uno, no, c’erano due forse partigiani che passavano, che davano un po’, che mi davano l’impressione che erano partigiani. Gli altri li conoscevo, erano gli imboscati che c’erano lì, si erano svegliati al momento opportuno. C’era forse una o due persone, una c’era sicuramente che si [unclear] era però il gruppo era quello lì.
ZG: Quindi furono questi imboscati che si erano appostati con la mitragliatrice all’incrocio.
GP: Sì, sì, sì.
ZG: Allora direi che con le domande sulla guerra ho finito. Le volevo chiedere a finita la guerra, lei si ricorda cosa è successo dopo? Siete tornati a Milano, insomma mi racconti un po’.
GP: Ho scritto un libro io.
ZG: Ah.
GP: Beh, molto interessante perché eravamo, diciamo qualcuno era fortunato che era riuscito a fare le scuole medie e andare avanti chi era rimasto a Milano ma la massa era come me, quinta elementare, senza lavoro però la cosa interessante è che il lavoro si trovava subito, c’era molto lavoro, c’era da ricostruire, e quindi sia mio fratello che io e che i miei amici abbiamo trovato da lavoro lì. Ma io vu fa l’elettricista, io vado a fare il meccanico, no, io faccio il panettiere, poi ci, assieme parlavamo e dicevamo: ‘Io vorrei fare questo, vorrei fare quello’. E c’era veramente la possibilità e ci siamo tutti impegnati a lavorare. Abbiamo lavorato da questo punto di vista. E qui io pensavo, speravo di andare a lavorare nella Ceretti e Tanfani, dove c’era mio padre. Il direttore del quale di questa ditta, aveva promesso a mia madre nel ’45 che mi avrebbe assunto appena poteva, ma al momento non poteva e non l’ha fatto. Faccio una parentesi. Questo direttore è stato messo al muro dai tedeschi con i compagni della ditta negli scioperi del ’44, negli scioperi del ’44 perché voi sapete nel ’43 e nel ’44 degli scioperi delle fabbriche di Milano, in particolare Sesto San Giovanni e la Bovisa, dove c’erano tante fabbriche e lì c’erano un gruppo, gli operai erano organizzati, fatto sciopero sono entrati i tedeschi e li hanno messi al muro e non hanno sparato, non gli hanno fatto niente, li hanno obbligato a riprendere il lavoro perché era una ditta ausiliaria, facevano dei lavori che interessavano ai tedeschi e quindi questo signore qui è rimasto direttore d’officina anche dopo la guerra e alla fine prima di essere, di andare via è riuscito ad assumermi, nel ’48 mi ha assunto. Questa persona. E io lì ho potuto capire, sentire tutti gli operai, capire cosa, come hanno vissuto, cosa hanno fatto nel periodo di guerra. E perché allora avevo, nel ’48 avevo diciassette anni ero, e avevo già gli speroni io, eran già due anni che lavoravo e quindi conoscevo già le difficoltà della vita. E quindi poi lì subito a vent’anni ero in commissione interna, facevo commissione interna, quindi conosco bene la vita della fabbrica, prima perché tutti gli amici mi conoscevano perché mio padre ogni tanto mi portava al dopolavoro e allora c’era il dopolavoro. Mi portava là che andavano a giocare alle bocce e poi a Natale c’erano i regali che allora era così durante il tempo del fascio. E tutti gli uomini anziani, gli operai mi conoscevano e quindi ho potuto entrare e conoscere bene le cose. Poi, c’è molto del dopoguerra ma.
ZG: Senta la scuola invece poi è riuscito ad andare avanti quindi?
GP: Sì, ho avuto la fortuna. Dunque intanto la scuola non potevo più nel senso che non avevo fatto le medie, non c’era ancora perché poi i sindacati sono riusciti a imporre la possibilità di fare le scuole medie a chi non le aveva fatte ma io avevo [sic] già troppo avanti. Allora quando sono entrato in Ceretti, la Ceretti aveva le scuole interne. Ho fatto matematica, meccanica e disegno, io poi ero appassionato del disegno, lo facevo prima di andare ancora lì. Ho fatto questi anni qui, questi due, e questo mi ha permesso di studiare perché poi ero uno che, mi piaceva, sapevo, ci capivo. Mi ricordo che il direttore gli diceva agli insegnanti che, gli insegnanti erano tutti gli ingegnieri della ditta, ma perché, perché non, deve andare a scuola questo qui, rimandatelo a scuola, come per dire, perché vedeva che capivo e insomma perchè non va non so, perché non va, ma io avevo la testa dall’altra parte, la testa dall’altra parte dal punto di vista sindacale-politico, per cui non ero, volevo fare quello e non andare a scuola, anche perché alla scuola non potevo andare. Quelle lì l’ho fatta perché mi interessava professionalmente. Vi dirò che ho fatto la vita politica, la vita sindacale fino a ventisei anni, poco eh, dieci anni, a ventisette, a ventisei anni mi sono sposato. Dopodiché ho capito una cosa, che non ero nelle condizioni di fare né il sindacalista né il politico perché la cultura era quella che era per cui, meno male, che ho voluto imparare la mia professione perché sarei stato un cattivo politico e un cattivo sindacalista, questo proprio convinto. Invece ho litigato all’interno della mia azienda per poter avere il mio posto di lavoro, perché allora ero martellato dall’azienda perché volevano disfarmi, disfarsi. Una serie di circostanze che forse è inutile, non interessa a nessuno però diciamo che mi hanno mandato fuori dall’azienda in un’altra azienda di proprietà della Redaelli di Rogoredo. Ho fatto un’esperienza notevole anche là. Dopodiché ho cominciato a lavorare all’esterno della ditta per l’azienda. Alla fine vi dirò che ho fatto il montatore, il capo montatore, il capocantiere, nel ’69 sono andato in ufficio come ispettore di montaggio. Io ho girato il mondo, per dire. America latina, America, Venezuela, andato in parecchi altri posti, son stato in Iran, son stato in Pakistan, son stato in quasi tutta l’Europa nel, e ho cominciato a ventisette anni, ho fatto il primo lavoro da capocantiere, avevo dieci montatori e nel ’59, ventotto anni, e ottanta operai in Sicilia. Ho fatto una teleferica di diciotto chilometri come capo montatore, avevo tutti i montatori della Ceretti, tutti esperti, tutta gente anziana, esperta e io ero, avevo fatto, avevo dieci anni di lavoro alle spalle, avevo fatto anche l’Iran sempre con i capi montatori, avevo fatto la mia esperienza, ma l’ispettore, il capo dell’ufficio montaggi, quando m’ha chiamato per andare in Sicilia per fare quel lavoro lì, ho detto: ’Va bene, vado, chi è che è il capo là?’, ‘No il capo lo fa lei’, ‘No, guardi, il capo lo fa lei’. ‘Sì perché lei’, m’ha detto, ‘io sono sicuro che con la sua savoir-faire volevo dire, il suo modo di fare, riesce a controllare la situazione perché vede, se mando Minisini, se mando Bersani, se mando, son tutti capi, uno che la vuol sapere più lunga degli altri e in effetti era tutta gente esperta. Però lei può metterse, metterli d’accordo, percé se mando uno di questi a fare il capo è una lite unica. Li conosco tutti, mi creda’. ‘Guardi, se lo dice lei’, e in effetti è andata così. Partendo da lì ho fatto presto a far carriera soprattutto perché avevo una cultura tecnica, nel senso che conoscevo il disegno, un po’ di matematica, la meccanica perché se ho fatto l’esperienza, e quindi è stato facile per me far carriera. Facile [laughs], non facile, ma ho potuto farla. E così sono riuscito a fare i miei quarant’anni e poi ho fatto sei anni di consulente dell’azienda. Ecco, questo è stato un po’ la mia carriera.
ZG: Ok, fantastico. Senta,
GP: Beh, forse questo pezzo non vi interesserà, ma insomma, tanto per.
ZG: No, no, no, teniamo tutto, non si preoccupi. Le faccio le ultime due domande. Lei all’epoca, all’epoca della guerra, cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, di chi bombardava?
GP: Le dirò: io sono stato molte volte, mi hanno chiamato nei rifugi a parlare dei bombardamenti e della guerra e i ragazzi diciamo della terza media, o la terza media in genere o la quinta, i ragazzi di diciotto anni, devo dire che è molto faticoso, molto faticoso perché non riescono a esprimersi, non parlano, non chiedono, fanno fatica, però qualche volta qualche domanda intelligente veniva fuori. Mi ricordo che uno ha chiesto: ‘Ma insomma, lei cosa ne pensa degli americani? In fondo hanno ammazzato suo padre, fatto bombardamenti, hanno ammazzato suo padre, quindi come la pensa da questo punto di vista?’. Cosa ho risposto? Dico: ’Sentite, è finita la guerra, ci siamo liberati, io ho avuto la sensazione che ci siamo liberati veramente da un giogo, ci siamo liberati dal fascismo, e io credo che sia stato inevitabile questo sacrificio che abbiamo fatto. Cosa posso fare? Cosa posso mettermi a odiare gli americani? Tutto sommato, gli americani sono anche morti per venirci a liberare. I soldati americani stavano bene in America ma sono venuti qui e ci hanno aiutato a liberarci. È vero, hanno fatto anche dei danni ma alla fine cosa possiamo dire? Cosa possiamo fare? Abbiamo di fronte un altro periodo e non con il giogo sulle spalle’.
ZG: Bene. Per me, se lei non ha altro da dire, finiamo qua. Grazie.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Giuseppe Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
Giuseppe Pirovano remembers wartime memories as schoolboy at Affori, a Milan neighbourhood. Describes daily life in fascist youth organisations, with regimented schooling and political rallies. Mentions childrens plays and pastimes, such as assembling a kick scooter from scrap and recalls fascist militiamen intimidating and jailing dissenters. Recalls conscription dodgers and factory strikes. Gives an account of the 24 October 1942 bombing, which caused limited damage and describes the much more intense one of 10 September 1944. Gives a graphic account of its aftermath, mentioning the death of his father and widespread damage. Describes different shelter types stressing their inadequacy, mentions his experience as evacuee in the Brescia countryside while his father was employed by a manufacturing firm. Recalls Pippo strafing. Gives an account of his experience as trade union activist, describing his post-war career as mechanical engineer. Mentions his involvement in the memorialisation of the bombing war, reflects on the morality of bombing, and stresses how he feels grateful for the sacrifice of those who died.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Format
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01:04:38 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Brescia
Temporal Coverage
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1942-10-04
1944-09-10
1943-09-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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APirovanoG171113
PPirovanoG1701
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/428/3600/PSamoreT1801.1.jpg
4e25eab2fa61b9c7d8bd7e75647a3e64
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/428/3600/ASamoreT180206.2.mp3
8a05a3481143895a718a4d6e010f2719
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Samorè, Tito
Tito Samorè
T Samorè
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Tito Samorè who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2018-02-06
Identifier
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Samore, A
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi. L’intervistato è Tito Samorè. Nella stanza è presente Francesco Samorè, il figlio. L’intervista ha luogo a Milano in [omitted] ed è il 6 febbraio 2018. Possiamo iniziare. Quindi, signor Tito, come prima cosa io le chiedo, qual’è il ricordo più vecchio che ha?
TS: Dunque, il ricordo più vecchio, di prima della guerra o durante la guerra?
ZG: Di prima della guerra.
TS: Di prima della guerra. Facevo tiratore scelto con i Balilla [laughs] che eravamo dieci in tutta Italia che ci portavamo a tirare a segno con carabine da tiro a segno e facevamo le gare di tiro a segno. Eravamo bravi, ci mandavano in giro a fare vedere che i Balilla erano bravi, sapevano sparare bene, ecco e via, però . Continuato, diciamo poi anche a nel futuro, nel passato diciamo continuato a tirare, a fare tiro a segno fino a quando mi ha detto: ‘No, non si può perché dovresti passare la nazionale in piedi e io sono un monocolo perché ho perso, durante la guerra ho perso una parte [laughs] e quindi quella lì già una seconda parte e poi si andava a scuola quel giorno, il primo giorno che è stato fatto il bombardamento del primo aprile, no, del giugno mi sembra del ’40, primo bombardamento di Milano, eravamo, era un pomeriggio tra parentesi di solito qui mettono turni invece siamo, siamo nel pomeriggio del, di quel, del primo bombardamento del ’40, del giugno del ’40 era, 16 giugno o il 19, eravamo per strada per Milano con mia madre e noi siamo cinque fratelli però eravamo solo i due maggiori andavano a spasso, gli altri erano ancora da venire certi e quindi. Ed eravamo un giro a spasso per Milano, Via Dante per la precisione, e quando a un certo punto abbiamo sentito suonare l’allarme però la gente, al primo momento non, non pensava neanche che potessero bombardare se ne fregavano un pochettino e se ne sono accorti quando si sono visti il primo [mimics the sound of the artillery] dell’antiaerea, ha cominciato a sparare l’antiaerea e si sentono arrivare gli aerei e la gente ha cominciato a fuggire. Mia madre che era una tipa molto veloce, diciamo, tenendoci saldamente per le mani tutti e due, mio fratello maggiore c’ha ormai novant’anni, io ce ne ho un po’ di meno ma diciamo la gente si scappava, la gente che fuggiva e non si sa bene per dove perché si vedevano gli aerei che arrivavano però la gente fuggiva e mia madre ci ha preso per le mani e ci ha fatto entrare in un portone che si trovava e siamo stati lì ad aspettare e io e mio fratello che eravamo i curosi naturalmente come tutti i ragazzini su questa faccia della Terra e guardavamo, vedevamo gli aerei e vedevamo dagli aerei cadere i grappoli, cadere dei grappoli ma mia madre diceva: ‘Ricordate ragazzi, stanno bombardando’ di mamma, guarda se bombardano adesso sopra di noi le bombe andranno, saranno circa mille metri le bombe andranno giù a ottanta, cento, duecento di qua quindi [laughs] aspettiamo che, che poi sono passati questi qui e poi sono andati via, è stato un bombardamento veloce però c’erano anche i loro morti, le loro, la gente era terrorizzata per un momento poi passato diciamo il terrore praticamente era abbastanza calma, certo, c’era gente che piangeva perché pensava alla casa, pensava ai bambini, pensava robe del genere, non sapeva dove erano cadute le bombe, poi così il terrore delle case che erano in fiamme e quindi, e c’erano case in fiamme, c’erano danni ma a me personalmente non è che abbia fatto terrore, era un’esperienza [laughs] e basta ecco. Questo è il primo bombardamento e poi, poi, poi [laughs] e poi ne sono passati tantissimi altri però in teoria non è che ci facessa paura molto a Milano almeno che è una città un po’ stramba [laughs] non ha dato quel terrore che gli americani, gli inglesi pensavano, speravano che sostenesse e bombardavano il giorno dopo che eravamo già lì a ricostruire o tirare via le macerie in Italia sì, c’erano proprio dei cosi specializzati, andavano subito a controllare che lo stabile stesse ancora in piedi, fosse ben, sgombrarlo e lasciarlo cadere oppure farlo cadere giù del tutto quindi c’era molta roba che veniva tirata via dalle strade, le strade erano pulite e soprattutto anche poi per tirare fuori i morti se c’erano, per evitare infezioni eccetera. Milano era molto tranquilla sotto certo, non ci faceva piacere c’erano case che bruciavano roba del genere però non era piacevole tant’è vero che ad esempio la prima cosa che ha fatto mio padre senza avere ordini specifici perché non gli avevano dato ha detto. Dunque partiamo dal principio che le case di Milano sono fatte di mattoni e di cemento e sono tutte però in legno la parte interna perché i pavimenti non avevano le travi di cemento traverse, c’avevano le travi di legno con su il carnicciato di legno e poi il pavimento. I tetti erano in legno, coperti da tegole ma erano in legno. I solai di solito erano in legno. Quindi erano molto più facili da incendiare ma l’esterno del fabbricato era rimasto così. Uno che passa per Milano dice case vecchie, oh, che strano ma come fanno a essere ancora case vecchie, dicevano che Milano era stata distrutta parecchio. Ma, sì, è stata distrutta perché erano bruciate da questi spezzoni incendiari la casa gli spezzoni erano bruciati. Mio padre aveva fatto, aveva messo uno strato di un metro e mezzo di sabbia in solaio e quella c’ha salvata la casa perché dopo, dopo gli anni che abbiamo cominciato a tirar via quella roba lì per vedere che cosa facesse eccetera eccetera, visto che c’erano questi spezzoni che erano dei pezzi di quaranta centimetri circa dodici esagonali che non esplodevano all’interno, quando riuscivano, quando entravano si incendiavano ma non esplodevano era solo la parte fosforsa, al fosforo perché l’odore era quello, il che scioglieva e incendiava se c’erano dei, e salvato così dal, si infilava nella sabbia e la nostra casa [laughs] non era toccata ecco. Insomma [unclear] [laughs]
ZG: Le faccio subito una domanda ed era, i suoi genitori che lavoro facevano?
TS: I miei genitori, dunque mia madre era casalinga e mio padre era dirigente di una azienda del, di produzione di forni da gas per le, per i grandi città. Difatti poi i tedeschi era stata militarizzata e i tedeschi volevano parecchie cose e lui, grazie a una segretaria italo-tedesca, che doveva fare segretaria dei tedeschi che però era più dalla parte partigiana che dalla parte tedesca e ci dava, dava a mio padre quello che avrebbero chiesto a lui perché sapeva tutto quanto di, lei era segretaria anche stenografa e sapeva quello che dicevano questi qua insomma. E quando hanno fatto le liste dei, diciamo, di presa degli operai specializzati per spedirli in Germania e lui ha fatto una cosa molto semplice. Ha detto dunque quali sono gli operai specializzati? Sono questi qui, allora ha avvisato gli operai specializzati adesso quando dicendo, adesso quando c’è il prossimo bombardamento dunque cominciamo premettendo che tutte le robe che ci interessano a noi di materiale ecco speciale, non so, lo stagno, l’argento, quello, materiali che servivano per fare non solo le aziende del gas ma anche contatori, quelli elettrici eccetera, erano aziende che facevano tante cose non ne facevano due o tre e ha presso tutte queste robe per dire le abbiamo messe dentro, le abbiamo, le ha messe dentro dei capannoni e questi capannoni ha aspettato quando c’è stato un bombardamento e [mimics the sound of a dropping bomb] una bomba è caduta non sul capannone ma su un altro capannone che per fortuna era vuoto e, vuoto di gente, e invece gli altri capannoni hann fatto [makes a booming noise] bella carica di dinamite al posto giusto e ha fatto crollare tutto. Il materiale buono era sotto in cantina, sopra c’era roba e in più c’hann messo dei poveretti che erano morti dopo il bombardamento, no, difatti li hanno sparsi un po’ qua, un po’ la e, irriconoscibili, e poi i, invece gli operai specializzati che avrebbero dovuto essere presi, li ha fatti andare via veloce perché diceva, prima di finire in Germania [unclear] se ritornate [laughs], smammate. Difatti poi dopo, subito dopo la guerra i sindacati, che allora c’erano i sindacati comandavano in quel momento, e l’avevano nominato direttore generale era quello che mandava avanti l’azienda ecco, poi dopo c’è stato qui tutto un insieme di cose.
ZG: Quindi la segretaria che parlava anche tedesco.
TS: La segretaria che parlava tedesco, parlava anche italiano perché naturalmente lei era un italo-tedesca, pardon, di madre credo, non ricordo più.
ZG: E quindi i tedeschi non sapevano che lei parlasse tedesco.
TS: I tedeschi sapevano che lei parlava tedesco perché [unclear] quindi lei aveva in materiale di discussione dei pezzi grossi tedeschi di Milano che sapeva tutto, diffusione, a tutti ma soltanto a quelli che poi dopo sapevano ma. Che poi lì era una cosa un po’ a parte però fa sempre parte della guerra e diciamo i tedeschi avevano dato a mio padre l’obbligo di costruire forni speciali per la distillazione degli alberi per fare benzina. Lì c’hanno impiegato un bel po’ di tempo a farlo, però a un certo punto a dovuto farla. Ha dovuto farla e questi qui sono andati, dovevano andare in Germania a presentare questa proposte dicevano disposizione di sì e poi tornare indietro. E con la macchina c’è andata anche la segretaria. So che, non si sa bene cosa sia successo, con precisione, a meno quanto diceva la segretaria, lei a un certo punto in un certo posto sapeva che c’era un passo di montagna che in un certo punto dietro una curva c’era un masso. Quando la macchina si è fermata, lei ha detto: ‘Ho bisogno urgente di fare la pipì’ [laughs]. E’ sparita. In quel momento sono arrivati degli aerei in picchiata che sapevano evidentemente l’ora, minuto e secondo di quel [unclear] e [makes a shooting sound] hanno spianato i tedeschi con macchine relative perché delle specie di bombe incendiarie di quelle un po’ e quindi tutti i disegni eccetera eccetera. La segretaria poi abbiamo saputo dopo che è passata direttamente tra i partigiani quindi [laughs]. Questa è una cosa che sapevano ben pochi tra parentesi [laughs]. Molto in pochi, soprattutto la faccenda dei, capannoni e della gente che era riuscita, è andata bene insomma. Certo, se lo beccavano [laughs].
ZG: E senta, appunto per questo posso chiederle qual’era il nome dell’azienda?
TS: Eh?
ZG: Il nome dell’azienda qual’era?
TS: La azienda era la Siri Chamont, [clears throat] scusate, la Siri Chamont, era un’azienda di origine francese, fatta da dei francesi, poi era però diretta da italiani ormai durante la guerra, poi siamo passati poi [unclear]
ZG: I capannoni si ricorda in che zona di Milano erano?
TS: Sì, in Via Savona, in fondo Via Savona 98 mi sembra [laughs] si perché sono passati un po’ di anni.
ZG: E senta a questo punto le faccio anche l’ultima domanda ed è, si ricorda per caso l’anno?
TS: L’anno?
ZG: Del bombamento dei capannoni.
TS: L’anno, aspetta un attimo, dunque l’anno era già, dunque nel ’43, deve essere luglio, bombardamento, dunque [mumbling/babbling] mitragliamenti, sempre nel ’43.
ZG: Va bene, non si preoccupi, non è fondamentale.
TS: [mumbling/babbling] era nel ’43, perché era già nel [unclear] solo che non mi ricordo se era nel ’43 o nel ’44, questo è il fatto perché.
ZG: Non si preoccupi, non è, non è necessario. E invece il nome di suo padre qual’era?
TS: Francesco. Francesco Samorè, ingegniere.
ZG: E per caso si ricorda anche il nome della segretaria?
TS: No, anche perché mio padre a un certo punto aveva anche un po’ paura di far sapere a tanti. Con noi, cioè ne aveva parlato praticamente dopo la guerra ma
ZG: Quindi lei ha saputo tutte queste cose finita la guerra.
TS: Finita la guerra, sì, sì, anche perché non potevano sapere, noi eravamo dei bambini, sai ne parli con un altro bambino il quale [unclear] bambino neanche [unclear], ciao.
ZG: Senta invece, tornando a prima della guerra, lei per caso si ricorda quando è scoppiata la guerra?
TS: Sì, sì, sì, sì, mi ricordo che c’è stato il famoso discorso del Duce che diceva appunto che avevano fatto la guerra eccetera eccetera e mio padre aveva già detto mi ricordo quello lì che aveva detto questa è una grande [unclear], potevamo farne anche a meno eravamo neutrali un pezzo per un pezzo siamo rimasti neutrali. L’Italia, l’Italia non ha partecipato subito alla guerra con i tedeschi perché i tedeschi hanno incominciato con la Polonia, non dicendo niente agli italiani. Tieni conto che nel periodo immediatamente prima della guerra i tedeschi volevano invadere l’Austria ma il presidente dell’Austria in quel momento era un socialista ed era un socialista giolittiano come mio padre. Non so perché anche Mussolini ha mandato due divisioni di alpini al confine con l’Austria in Austria, no, per difendere l’Austria dalla Germania. Quindi la cosa è stata stranissima perché Mussolini conosceva già Hitler. Hitler ha imparato da Mussolini malauguratamente. Solo che, non so se la gente lo sapesse questa faccenda perché sono stati mandati a proteggere l’Austria dall’invasione tedesca. Poi è morto il loro presidente e Hitler ha fatto i cavoli suoi, e ha occupato, fatto l’Anschluss, come dicono i tedeschi che [unclear] ecco. Poi cosa c’è d’altro.
ZG: Quindi.
TS: Scusa la voce.
ZG: Si sente benissimo.
TS: [unclear]
ZG: Quindi lei sentì il discorso di Mussolini?
TS: Il primo discorso sì, uno dei primi discorsi, quello precedente, poi quello dell’Etiopia, pi la cessione, la nomina del re Vittorio Emanuele III a imperatore dell’Etiopia, poi la conquista dell’Albania, perché è stata conquistata l’Albania molto prima della guerra e poi cosa mi ricordo? Ci sono state tante cose che, molte, io mi ricordavo che ero giovane mi piaceva, siccome mi piaceva tirare a segno veramente ci portavano al tiro a segno nazionale col fucile. Era una carabina fatta aposta a tiro, non erano moschettini che dicevano dei moschettini, no, no, era una signora carabina, meno pesante, il tiro era soltanto, venticinque metri circa, non era i cinquanta metri, cento metri però facevamo, eravamo in pochissimi [unclear], in tutta Italia eravamo dieci, neanche.
ZG: E quindi
TS: Anche quello c’è poca gente che lo sa [laughs]
ZG: E quindi questi discorsi qua li sentiva alla radio?
TS: Eh?
ZG: Questi discorsi qua li sentiva alla radio?
TS: Eh, c’era la radio, non c’era la televisione in quel periodo. Avevamo già una signora radio super, me la ricordo, una radio che era anche buona, si sentiva bene, si sentiva anche la radio britannica che faceva [mimics the opening of Beethoven’s symphony] facevano [mimics] voleva dire che era la trasmissione inglese per gli italiani, ecco.
ZG: Suo padre dopo lo scoppio della guerra, le ha mai parlato della guerra? Le ha mai detto qualcosa?
TS: Tante cose. Ci commentava ad esempio il fatto di certe, della guerra in Libia, che essendo entrata in guerra, l’Italia era legata poi a difendere la Libia e non ce la faceva. E difatti in pochissimo tempo c’avevano conquistato [unclear] che c’era una famosa canzone di gero bubbo me la ricordo alcuni pezzi [laughs]. Ah, posso dirtela? Dunque, ce n’era uno che colonnello, su questa rima, adesso canto male, colonnello, non voglio il pane, voglio sabbia per il mio sacchetto, poi c’erano tutte le cose, non voglio l’acqua, non la voglio, [unclear] e c’era questa diciamo canzone che l’avevano fatta perché Gera bubo era un posticino disperso in fondo alla Libia, gli inglesi lo potevano mangaire in due minuti e mezzo, non c’aveva niente, avevano fatto dei carri armati con i trattori con delle piastre d’acciaio e dei [unclear] che i carri armati normali erano delle schifezze pazzesche [laughs]. E poi c’erano tante di cose che, che sapevamo noi giovani perché io avevo mio fratello che aveva, che ha sei anni più di me e quindi aveva certe informazioni che io non avevo ancora. Però eravamo tutti e due appassionati dell’aviazione, del, sapevamo dei modellini, ci facevamo noi i modellini, sapevamo tutto, questo qui sono gli aerei tedeschi, le migliori ali tra parentesi. Dicevamo di bercero, diceva, degli inglesi, le migliori ali, no. E così degli inglesi eccetera non mi ricordo più che cosa diceva di male [laughs], non me lo ricordo più, però sapevamo che l’aereo così così era inglese, così così era tedesco, quindi avevamo già una certa conoscenza, è per quello che non avevamo avuto la paura dicendo a mia madre guarda che se li vediamo sulla testa vuol dire che sono già [unclear] le bombe [laughs] anche se non andavano a delle velocità pazzesche, andavano sì e no a seicento chilometri all’ora se c’arrivavano. Se c’arrivavano eh perché un bombardiere carico di allora più di quattrocento chilometri all’ora, ciccia [laughs].
ZG: Ehm.
TS: Tieni conto che l’Italia aveva vinto il campionato mondiale per l’idrovolanti, ce la faccia? Aveva vinto il campionato del mondo per gli idrovolanti quindi era una gara fatta anche con gli inglesi, americani eccetera eccetera. E avevamo fatto un idrovolante che credo che fosse già stato fatto dalla Macchi però i motori non mi ricordo di chi, se erano, non me lo ricordo, era un motore [unclear] in ogni caso avevamo già una forma molto affusolata, e il motore aveva l’elica, due eliche sulla stessa asse di cui una girava in un senso e un’altra in un’altra per evitare che l’aereo avesse, il movimento della coda tendesse a girarlo, ed è arrivato a settecento chilometri all’ora, è stato un record che è rimasto uguale, tutt’ora, perché per i motori a scoppio non sono mai riusciti ad arrivare [laughs] e poi dopo abbiamo fatto delle baracche perché in Italia siamo furbi, molto furbi, avevamo costruito, dunque avevamo costruito gli idrovolanti e poi avevamo costruito anche gli idrovolanti che lanciavano i siluri e potevano lanciare i siluri e poi hanno cessato la produzione e l’hann fatto gli inglesi in confronto. E c’hanno affondato a Taranto, no, a Taranto, sì, sì, ha Taranto hanno affondato la flotta italiana, una parte, con i loro, con i loro idrovolanti, questo, però esattamente se ti devo dire il giorno, l’ora, l’anno non me lo ricordo proprio però è stato uno dei primi [unclear], applicazioni di siluri sugli idrovolanti. Che l’hanno fatto gli inglesi però, non gli italiani, non avevano mandato avanti la cosa. L’abbiamo fatta dopo, come al solito. E così pure anche il radar. Marconi, quando aveva fatto la cosa, il radar l’aveva già fatto, ma non gli hanno dato retta. E’ andato a farlo poi in Inghilterra e in Inghilterra l’hanno fatto. Questo non lo so io se lo sapesse qualcuno ancora [laughs], c’è tanta roba che io so guarda che tu non hai. Perché eravamo interessatissimi io e mio fratello ci interessavamo molto delle armi, del tipo di arma, di quello che veniva fatto ad esempio quando c’è stata la cosa in Russia, a parte il fatto che mio padre ha detto: ‘Ma quello è scemo, come al solito’, ma questo è un altro discorso perché [unclear] mi raccomando [unclear] una cosa del genere [laughs] che hanno mandato gli alpini, li ha mandati con un’attrezzatura che quando ci sarà il gelo saranno dolori, infatti è successo ben così [laughs]. Questo è una poi ce ne sono ancora un po’ parecchie [laughs] c’ho un’enciclopedia ormai dentro di questa roba qui che fa paura quindi non saprei dirti tutto [laughs].
ZG: Ma, dov’è che vivevate? Con suo padre, con la sua famiglia, dove vivevate a Milano?
TS: Noi vivevamo prima a Milano poi siamo sfollati a Santa Margherita Ligure, poi [laughs], poi siamo tornati a Milano, nel ’41 circa eravamo a Milano, Milano in quel momento lì non hanno bombardato, che mi risulti non hanno mai bombardato nel ’41. Poi siamo stati per un pezzo del ’42 ancora a Milano, poi hanno incominciato dei bombardamenti un po’, po’ pesanti a Milano e allora siamo tornati a Santa Margherita. A Santa Margherita ci siamo andati all’inizio del ’43 [unclear] [laughs] e ce l’avevo scritto anche [unclear] non mi ricordo più. In ogni caso, [unclear], in ogni caso Santa Margherita nel ’43 ormai non c’erano ancora le, nel ’43 c’è stato poi l’armistizio, cosiddetto armistizio e guerra contro i tedeschi che è stato un casino perché lì hanno fatto la più grande vaccata che potesse essere fatta, sia dalla parte degli inglesi che dalla parte nostra perché gli inglesi hanno detto, molto prima di quello che doveva essere detto, che l’Italia era passata completamente all’Inghilterra e quindi tutti i soldati, tutta la gente, nessuno aveva ricevuto ordini specifici che bisognava sparare ai tedeschi, bisognava scappare, e i tedeschi hanno avuto piazza libera praticamente. E difatti tieni conto che ci hanno affondato la corazzata Roma, che era stata, era una corazzata che era una cosa fatta bene perché le navi erano fatte bene, non sono mai state usate perché l’Italia [unclear] [laughs] e la corazzata Roma gli sono arrivati i tedeschi sopra, loro non sapevano neanche se dovevano, se potevano sparare ai tedeschi o no, non si, non avevano neanche i [unclear], perché se avessero avuto il sentore di una cosa del genere, avessero cominciato a sparargli ai tedeschi coi mezzi che aveva già la corazzata Roma, non so se arrivavano a tirargli giù la bomba. E i tedeschi staccano prima la bomba col tele, comandata via cavo e guidata da un osservatore, difatti hanno tirato, praticamente non ha fatto [unclear], hanno fatto quasi così, [laughs] ed è entrata dentro in un camino della nave, che è la parte più delicata e hanno fatto un disastro perché pare che ci fosse la termite chissàdio che cosa era, l’ha tagliato in due [unclear].
ZG: Quando chiedevo prima a Milano, in che quartiere vivevate?
TS: In?
ZG: Che quartiere vivevate a Milano?
TS: Abbastanza vicino, qua, Via Etna, Via [laughs], Via Andrea Verga 4 che sarà cento metri, [unclear] duecento metri da qua insomma. [unclear] Via Andrea Verga 4 che è una strada che dopo ha avuto un, poco dopo durante la guerra ci avevano bruciato vicino a casa nostra [unclear], davanti a casa nostra due case, un cantiere di legno, roba del genere, che vendeva legni eccetera eccetera, e poi subito di fianco alla casa o quasi c’era la, una fabbrica che non mi ricordo più il nome, mi è scappato il nome, quello non c’è niente da fare, una fabbrica grossa che è stata incendiata completamente, altre case che sono state incendiate con, perché nessuno aveva fatto la fesseria, ha avuto l’idea di mio padre, di mettere la sabbia sul. Se tanti a Milano hanno messo per ordine tutti [unclear] così, gli inglesi sarebbero rimasti con le braghe di tela. Che sono rimasti ancora con le braghe di tela perché i tedeschi, gli inglesi speravano, bombardando Milano, le ultime bombardamenti gravi in, quelli di agosto e di coso del ’40, ah beh buonanotte, ’41, ’42, nel ’42, nel ’42 [laughs]. Questi bombardamenti qui che avevano fatto ultimi, dunque poi ce n’era uno che era stato fatto in agosto del ’43, il ’43 che quindi c’era già l’accordo tra italiani e inglesi. Perché sono venuti a bombardarci Milano? Ecco, questo perché gli inglesi c’avevano, insomma ce l’avevano su, perché è impossibile che loro sapessero che c’era l’armistizio in atto perché si sa che avevano mandato della gente italiana a parlare a Lisbona, o roba del genere, in Portogallo con inglesi per l’accordo di coso, si sapeva già che c’era già, perché hanno fatto un bombardamento di quel tipo lì che ha massacrato veramente Milano, sono stati più di quattrocento morti e passa eh. Ecco, gli inglesi pensavano di creare una nuova Dresda, a destra gli inglesi quando hanno bombardato coso, o gli americani, non lo so chi l’aveva fatto, avevano bombardato Dresda la quale ormai era costruita tutta in legno, quasi perché era una, un monumento nazionale. Aveva case ancora, in stile, in legno eccetera eccetera quindi quando gli sono arrivati questi qui poi è partita. Poi c’è stato vento eccetera eccetera, morale della favola hanno fatto il vortice di fuoco su a est, è riuscita a bruciate tutta Dresda. Un macello pazzesco, gente che moriva nel fosforo, lasciamo perdere [laughs]. Non tocca l’Italia in questo momento. Ma speravano di fare così anche a Milano. Milano s’è trovato el matun, scusa il termine, milanese, a Milano si è trovato il mattone e sì, e peccato che c’era dentro del legno. Tu vedevi le case di Milano intorno, vedevi le case ancora in piedi eccetera eccetera, guardavi dentro, vuoto completo [laughs].
ZG: E la scuola invece dove l’ha fatta?
TS: Ah, scuole, guarda, non, guardando bene dall’inizio della scuola, anzi non dall’inizio della scuola, dall’inizio della guerra in poi non ho mai fatto più di due mesi e mezzo in [unclear] perché [laughs] si passava da una parte all’altra, dall’altra, [laughs] e quindi il perito ma era dopo la guerra, quindi passato un po’ di tempo. E le medie le ho fatte che c’avevo tredici anni e le ho fatte in due tempi perché era nel ’45, una parte l’ho fatta, poi mio padre c’ha mandato, m’ha mandato a fare, trovare una persona fuori Milano e ho fatto da, da diciamo da privatista la terza, la seconda e la terza di coso perché la prima ero finito male perché mi era scoppiata una bomba vicino e mi ha dimezzato. Non si vede ma ci mancano vari pezzi [laughs], più l’occhio di vetro, un altro pezzo che, come si vede, c’è ancora qualche cosina, più schegge eccetera eccetera. Lì c’è stata una scena pazzesca in ospedale quando, sì, quando è successo questo, è successo così. Andiamo a finire chissà dove. Santa Maria Ligure è successo quersto numero qua. Tu tieni conto che a Santa Margherita Ligure c’erano nel porto due avvisi scorta che avevano delle specie di cacciatorpediniere che avevano ancora del petrolio nei serbatoi e di fianco c’era un avviso scorta come lo chiamavano che non era altro che una vecchia, una nave da trasporto armata con un cannoncino e delle mitragliere della Bred, qusto me lo ricordo perché erano mitragliere. Io, sai, allora noi sapevamo tutto, almeno io e mio fratello perché io c’avevo un fratello maggiore che si interessava di queste cose qui e io seguivo [mimics a dog’s panting] da bravo cagnolino dietro, no, e imparavo tutto anch’io. Il fatto è che in quel, quando è arrivato il non so, non mi ricordo più, il casino dell’8 settembre, 8 settembre del ’43, i due cacciabombardieri, caccia, le due navi veloci e armate, molto armate sono riuscite a scappare, l’altra non aveva gasolio per farla andare, e l’hanno affondata, autoaffondata ma aprendo le saracinesche, il terreno lì sono, il fondo di Santa Margherita non è enorme, tra il fondo e la barca ci sarà stato si e no due metri e mezzo, quindi quando questa è affondata, è affondata per due metri e mezzo e si è fermata lì. Dalla barca avevano buttato in mare a pezzi o interi, dei proiettili, c’erano dei proiettili grossi col relativo bossolo, sai che i proiettili c’è l’ogiva, il corpo del proiettile, poi c’è la parte di cartuccia che viene infilata nel cannone che insieme nei cannoni moderni era insieme ai, al proiettile, dentro, questo coso qua si smontava, tra parentesi se uno voleva smontarselo, se lo smontava infilandolo dentro [unclear] tira via [laughs] poi i bambini. Mettiamo le cose in chiaro, i bambini sono sempre [unclear], i bambini avevamo l’accortezza per prendere la bomba, non la bomba, l’esplosivo che c’è dentro, beh fa niente, mi è scappato di testa, lo scritto da qualche parte non me [unclear], la balistite, se tu la prendi all’aperto e l’accendi così, [unclear], non scoppia, ma se ti viene chiusa dentro a un proiettile, il colpo c’è e sì. Ora, ora tieni conto che c’erano questi proiettili buttati a mare. I ragazi prendevano dei secchi, buttavano in fondo, tiravano su, tiravi su un cannone, un cannone pochi, i colpi di cannone, c’erano una decina di colpi di cannone ma c’erano molti proiettili della mitragliera binata della Breda, posso dire anche il tipo, del diametro di venti millimetri, che erano delle cose alte dieci centimetri, un pochino di più forse, sì, sì vabbè, il proiettile era così, si smontava l’ogiva in alto, poi si tirava via la spoletta intermedia, poi con molta attenzione si faceva andare via la capsula di, fulminata di mercurio. [unclear] [laughs]. Scusa, mi viene da ridere quando. Ora, dopodiché c’era la polvere da sparo che era dentro nel proiettile, la tiravi via così, basta, poi montavi l’ogiva sopra, il proiettile era nuovo, solo che era vuoto, non faceva più niente. L’incoveniente è che c’era molta gente e molti giovani che lo facevano. Di solito erano ragazzi di diciassette, diciotto anni. E’ successo a me, a me particolarmente e a un altro amico, Un giorno di febbraio, il 27 febbraio del 1944, quindi un’anno dopo quasi che avevano affondato la nave. Alle dieci uscivamo dalla messa di Sant’Erasmo, ecco, Sant’Erasmo si chiamava, fino a stamattina non mi ricordavo più che si chiamava [laughs], dalla chiesa di Sant’Erasmo, da, di una chiesa che c’è nella parte del porto di Santa Margherita e noi siamo usciti dalla chiesa di Sant’Erasmo, ero io e questo ragazzo qua che era con me, e andiamo avanti pochi metri più in là e c’era un gruppetto di, mi sembra fossero tre, adesso non mi ricordo più bene, che stavano trafficando e questo amico che avevo con me conosceva questi qui e diceva: ‘Vieni a vedere questa roba qua’ [unclear]. Io vado, vedo che cosa c’hanno in mano e io non sapevo, conoscevo già quegli aggeggi, prendevamo in mano anche noi, non è che [laughs], t’ho detto, eravamo da prendere con le molle anche se c’avevo undici anni, e vedo che c’avevano questa roba qui che stavano smontando e avevano già svitato via l’ogiva, la parte di testa del coso. Io ho detto, ho vsito che facevano quel lavoro lì e ho detto al mio amico: ‘Ohè, questi qui vogliono saltare per aria, diam più in là’ e abbiamo cominciato ad allontanarci. Eravamo circa due o tre metri che forse, sì, tre metri, quasi quattro, mi volto così per vedere se c’erano robe che e malauguratamente vedo, proprio verso di me, che avevano già tirato via l’ogiva e stavano trafficando un qualche cosa che era il fulminante di mercurio. Il fulminante di mercurio è molto delicato [laughs] e questi qui hanno sbagliato qualche cosetta. Morale della favola, mentre mi giravo così ho visto, prima il buco nero e poi qualche secondo dopo la vampata, che mi sembrava verde. Che poi ho avuto i nodi col verde per un fracco di tempo [laughs]. E sono molto veloce di riflessi, ancora adesso e ho tirato su le mani per fortuna perché questo dito qui, come vedi, è partito e questo pezzo qua è ricresciuto. Un altro ne ricresceva così, quindi hanno dovuto tagliarla. Quell’altro ricresceva, è bruciarlo fino a quando e questo è uno. Poi c’è questa mano qui che sembra quasi intera, tieni conto che queste due qui servono così a farsi vedere, a rompere le scatole. La cicatrice parte da qua, non mi si vede più quasi perché mi spariscono le cicatrici come vedi. E’ entrata qui e ha portato via tutto un pezzo o quasi. Questo è uno più una quarantina di buchi [laughs]. Il fatto di avere alzato le mani m’ha salvato. Qui ha fatto questo, questo segno qui che però è un buco, molto più ampio della parte del vetro, della plastica, e un pezzo di faccia, compreso un pezzo di mascella. In più c’era questo [unclear] qui, probabilmente era dovuto all fatto della deviazione che questa mano qua frena il colpo, ha spaccato la mano però questo qui se l’è cavata per un pelo, le cicatrici erano nascoste [unclear] quasi, e sembra una ruga [laughs] non succede niente e poi questo qua che si vede. Che l’è minga troppo aposto [laughs], ecco. Naturalmente quando è successo, è successo che quelli che erano lì, poveretti, sì, li hanno portati all’ospedale ma non so se sono arrivati all’ospedale ecco. E il mio amico che era vicino era stato colpito all’arteria femorale della gamba destra e dopo un pochino hanno dovuto operarlo e tirar via la gamba perché era la cancrena, faceva fretta anche. Poi, ora che c’hanno caricato su una carrozza a cavalli, ci hanno portato dal porto all’ospedale che era in cima, su, dove c’è la stazione ferroviaria e sono, un percorso che fatto a piedi sarebbe [unclear], c’ha perso il suo tempo. Il sottoscritto c’aveva l’abitudine di non gridare di prendere le cose così come stavano arrivando, non ho perso conoscenza e non sono svenuto tutto il periodo. L’unica cosa che mi ricordo è che sono entro dentro a un barbiere che c’era di fronte a chiedere asciugamani per gli altri e questo barbiere me lo ricordo ogni volta, adesso è morto poveretto. Ogni volta [unclear] me lo ricordo cioè mi ricordo che sei entrato [unclear] che non sapevo chi ero, questo qui buttava sangue, qui c’era sangue, lì c’era sangue, un occhio era chiuso, l’altro non c’era più, vestito, mia madre diceva che non c’era più niente, era un buco e c’è magari gente piccola anche [unclear] e ho cercato di salire, ho cercato di salire sulla carrozzella senza accorgermi che non c’avevo più mano praticamente, c’avevo due dita che non funzionavano quasi perché sono lese anche loro non è che sia. E c’ha portato all’ospedale, all’ospedale, siccome io non gridavo, gli altri gridavano tutti e c’avevo gli occhi, c’avevo sangue dappertutto eccetera eccetera m’hanno preso sul tavolo di marmo che è quello delle autopsie [laughs] e nessuno ha guardato il sottoscritto che per fortuna sua, per qualche misteriosa ragione o perché sono, sapevo, avevo studiato qualche cosa di medicina, medicina no, di infermeria, e tenevo una mano dentro l’altra per fermare il sangue. E m’hanno messo su questo marmo, messo su questo marmo e poi nessuno, gli altri gridavano tutti quindi dovevo, dottori erano quelli che erano, gli infermieri anche, era un’ospedale piccolo, non era un’ospedale grande come quello di Santa Margherita e io [unclear] fermo, tranquillo, non dicevo niente e c’avevo gli occhi perché figurati questo qui col taglio qua non vedevo niente anche se ne avessi avuto voglia poi faceva male, questo qui non c’era più praticamente. Morale della favola a un certo punto passa un frate che conoscevo e era un’ex, un frate di [unclear] che ci faceva vedere di segreto i film che aveva girato in Russia durante la ritirata della decima, della Brigata Giulia e sento che mi fa un’estrema unzione. Io sento la voce del frate, la riconosco subito percheé lo conoscevamo bene, gli ho detto, mi raccomando, dica che sono vivo, [mimics a puzzled expression] scioccato perché credeva anche lui che fossi morto guardate che questo qui è vivo. Due minuti dopo [unclear] tutti i medici ormai vedevanko che andavano a farsi friggere poveretti ed erano lì a cercare di richiudere ste mani. Nel frattempo arriva un giornalista lì è la cosa più divertente che mi fa ridere ancora adesso. Arriva un giornalista e ci fa: ‘Come ti chiami?’ ‘Tito Samorè’ ‘E tua madre’? ‘Ada Coerolo’ ‘E tuo padre?’ Figurati, uno sdraiato in quella maniera lì, conciato così, e già fa [unclear] ancora la mascella, si sente che ne manca un toc, e gli faccio: ‘Se mi chiamo Samorè io’, ma l’ho detto abbastanza forte, no, che si è sentito una risata, un casino in quel momento di gente che lanciava urla, che, si vede che ero salvo, sentire questa era una barzelletta sentire, perché era una barzelletta detta da uno che sembrava morto due minuti prima [laughs]. Mi ricordo che c’è stata una risata fortissima proprio, questa me la ricorderò sempre, basta scusa [laughs] se ho tirato fuori delle storie [laughs]. Ecco, questa è stata una delle cose. E poi, vabbè, poi siamo tornati a Milano, giusto in tempo per gli ultimi bombardamenti [laughs], per gli ultimi bombardamenti e ci facevamo a piedi da Milano a Magenta e dormivamo nel [laughs], nella piramide che c’è a Magenta, nel, non so se c’è ancora, nella specie di piramide del cimitero di Magenta, della guerra di Magenta, della guerra del 1800, 1600, no, 1700, dio, vabbè [laughs] e c’era questo bello libero, si poteva dormire, era un po’ [unclear] di gente, c’era molta gente e c’era, cioè, si faceva a piedi per andare via dai bombardamenti, perché non trovavi nessun mezzo che ti portava in giro, non ce n’eran più [laughs]. Poi vabbè, vai avanti pure tu con le domande perché qui fino adesso ho cicerato io [laughs].
ZG: Perché da Milano dovevate andare a Magenta? Perché, non andavate nei rifugi?
TS: Ma perché, tenevamo Milano lontano [laughs], avevamo paura che tornassero di nuovo a farne degli altri bombardamenti e di fatti gli han fatti, dei bombardamenti successivi, a meno [unclear] [laughs].
ZG: Quindi a lei non è mai capitato di andare nei rifugi?
TS: Come?
ZG: Non è mai capitato di andare nei rifugi?
TS: Non parliamo di quei rifugi lì guarda. A Milano di rifugi come si deve c’erano solo quelli delle aziende che costruivano proiettili, bombe, altre robe del genere, che erano fatto a piramide così, no, in cemento armato e erano blindati sotto con dei corridoi sotto, fatti bene. Difatti quelli che erano riusciti a andare nei, diciamo tipo in quei rifugi lì andavano bene. Ma i rifugi delle case erano nient’altro che delle cantine con dei cosi di, di legno per irrobustirle ma basta. [unclear] molta gente a Milano è morta in cantina, in rifugio. Sinceramente guardando bene i rifugi delle case come quelli lì di Via Verga dove eravamo è del 1900, ma certi rifugi, che poi abbiamo visto dopo, anni dopo [unclear], anni dopo finita la guerra, che andavo in giro con mio padre a vedere Milano come l’era e c’erano dei pezzi di romani ancora. Anzi molte rovine romane sono saltate fuori [unclear]. A Sant’Ambrogio che era stato bombardato lateralmente a sinistra dove c’è la cosa della, quel monumento ai caduti, no, era stato bombardato da quella parte lì ed era interessante perché tutte le arcate che c’erano di cose ed erano scoperte dai bombardamenti erano [unclear] da anforette e [unclear] per fare l’arcata. Ed erano così. E non so come nessuno la sapeva [laughs].
ZG: Quindi lei, lei personalmente non è mai scappato in rifugio quindi?
TS: Come?
ZG: Lei personalmente non è mai scappato in rifugio durante un bombardamento.
TS: Simao andati una volta in rifugi quando eravamo ancora nei primi tempi ma a vedere così com’era [unclear] i capelli dritti insomma. E poi avevamo preso un’abitudine tale ai bombardamenti, agli allarmi che c’era un termine, c’era un metodo tedesco che lo diceva prima in tedesco e poi in italiano. Era: ‘Achtung! Achtung! Achtung! [unclear]’ eccetera eccetera, ossia voleva dire: ‘Attenzione! Attenzione! Attenzione! No, avvicinamento [unclear] nel quadrante quattro, cinque, come se fosse un tiro a segno e [unclear] man mano che si avvicinava dicevano tanti, pochi, niente, o uno, o due, o tre che circolano eccetera eccetera. Noi andavamo, io e mio fratello a mangiare alla mensa comunale di Piazza Diaz dove facevano bene da mangiare, quel periodo lì una cosa eccezionale trovare da mangiare era e mio padre ci mandava là a mangiare. Eravamo cinque fratelli quindi [laughs]. Noi che eravamo pià grandi eravamo andati fuori e noi partivamo da questo principio qui bisognava fare la fila. Allora quando cominciava l’allarme, ‘attenzione! Attenzione! Achtung! Achtung! Attenzione! Attenzione! [unclear] la gente scappava via veloce e noi andavamo avanti [laughs] era una cosa da lavativi [laughs] e poi nota bene che i, gli unici due o tre che c’erano a Milano di rifugi antiaerei erano la prima ante, come si chiama, la metropolitana, no, che doveva essere costruita e avevano già fatto un pezzo da Piazza San Fedele, quella dietro al comune, al Duomo. E lì c’era una galleria, [unclear] perché c’era il salone che poi hanno fatto diventare il salone del mobile, dopo, e allora c’era quella lì [laughs] ed era una grossa, ed era abbastanza fonda, quindi c’aveva una certa profondità, cemento di sopra, insomma, e ma se no di, di rifugi antiaerei proprio no, maluccio [laughs]. Ma pensa che [unclear] città morta gente che era morta perché è rimasta nel. C’erano nei rifugi poco dopo la guerra, nelle case bruciate, c’era uscita rifugio e la freccia, o entrata rifugio e c’era la freccia, perché era obbligatorio mettere le freccie sul, oltre i cartelli che diceva, casa distrutta da bombardieri anglo-assassìni, anglo-assàssini una volta era, poi i teschi che erano assàssini anche loro, hanno detto: ‘No, no, nein, non bisogna mettere assàssini, nein’ [makes a noise] allora assassìni, anglo-assassìni [laughs]. Poi è stato cancellato, quando c’è stata la liberazione hanno cancellato ma ogni tanto salta fuori [laughs].
ZG: Si ricorda invece qualcosa dell’occupazione nazista? Si ricorda le truppe tedesche a Milano?
TS: Ah, le truppe tedesche a Milano, effettivamente facevano il lavoro che dovevano fare a Milano, non andavano tanto d’accordo con la popolazione, questo non andava abbastanza bene perché fino a quando c’è stato la Repubblica Sociale c’era da mangiare a Milano. Il periodo più critico è stato dopo la Repubblica, che non c’era da mangiare. Non c’era da mangiare, venivano quelli fuori dalle campagne a portare la roba se arrivavano, e se c’avevi i soldi perchè costavano cari. Questo mi ricordo perché avevamo la carta, la tessera annonaria che ognuno di noi aveva e che era pane, carne eccetera eccetera. Se tu pensi che io che ero considerato un invalido di guerra, avevo diritto a una bistecca di carne ottima ed era controllata tra parentesi e te la dovevano dare buona di un etto al giorno, al giorno [emphasises], quella bistecca da un etto al giorno serviva a cinque persone [laughs]. Il pane era verde, bellissimo, pane verde, facevi così [makes a whistling noise] [laughs] e poi era, [laughs] [blows his nose]
ZG: Senta invece, si ricorda di quando la guerra è finita?
TS: Comes?
ZG: Si ricorda di quando la guerra è finita?
TS: Sì, 25 aprile, Dunque, lì, 25 aprile, niente, a Milano si sono sparati poco ma ci è andata bene che non hanno fatto quello che voleva fare Mussolini, a fare Milano come. Sparacchiavano nelle strade e ammazzavano [unclear], vabbè, normale nella storia. Anche perché pare che Schuster, l’arcivescovo di Milano di allora fosse riuscito ad avere un accordo con i tedeschi che loro se ne potevano andfare fuori dai piedi senza [unclear] resistenza eccetera e gli altri li lasciavano andare e si infatti. Peccato che abbiano fucilato della gente che ne potevano fare a meno di fucilarle, che potevano e quello non è stato un piacere che hanno fatto.
ZG: Senta.
TS: Quando scendevi dalla stazione che mettevano il timbro sul, quando uscivi dalla stazione al buio, alla sera, ti mettevano [makes a noise] il timbro sulla mano che era l’autorizzazione ad andare in giro di notte. [laughs] Non so se, se c’è gente che si ricorda quell’episodio lì. E ti mettevano il timbro, o sulla mano o sul polso, adesso non mi ricordo bene, non so se era sopra, boh [laughs]. E quello me lo ricordo, il fatto che a una certa ora non c’erano mezzi, [unclear] i tram erano bruciati durante, mi ricordo a fine della guerra c’era la fila di tram bruciati e soltanto la carcassa dei tram che ci sono ancora adesso in circolazione del ’35, sono quelli normali che vedi in giro sono quelli del ’35, gli altri moderni è un altro discorso, ma quelli lì erano ricostruiti da quelli che erano bruciati e c’erano, c’era tutta la fila lungo, per andare in Via Domodossola lungo la fiera campionaria che era stata bombardata anche lei che era tutta spazzolata e unclear], Milano [unclear] c’erano le bombe [laughs].
ZG: Come mai le era capitato di dover tornare la sera?
TS: Come?
ZG: Come mai le era capitato di arrivare in stazione la sera?
TS: Perché i treni arrivavano quando, quando c’erano se li trovavi [luahgs[. Mi ricordo che immediatamente dopo la guerra, mio padre ci aveva mandato sempre mio fratello e me [laughs], ci aveva mandato da Milano a Santa Margherita Ligure, era subito finito, era pochi giorni dopo la liberazione e col treno bisognava fare il treno spezzonato perché facevi Milano-Pavia, Pavia scendevi, attraversavi il Ticino, col traghetto [mimics the sound of the ferry’s motor] al Ticino, poi dal Ticino salivi, treno, un pezzettino di treno che c’era rimasto tra il Ticino e il Po, al Po scendevi attraversavi [unclear] [laughs], salivi sopra, facevi, a [unclear] scendevi, avanti così. E poi arrivati a Genova dovevi [laughs], dovevi prendere il tram a Sampierdarena, il tram che erano delle baracche pazzesche e arrivavi fino a Nervi. A nervi scendevi, passavi a Spiaggia, passavi sopra il muro anti, antisbarco fatto dai tedeschi che era tutto [unclear] e salivi su delle chiatte e con le chiatte arrivaci a Camogli. Camogli scendevi, andavi su a Ferrovia, salivi sui carrelli spinti a mano, tu con altre persone c’erano dei carrelli, [unclear] si mettevan dietro, in salita, nella salita della ferrovia poi fino in fondo, fino a Santa Margherita si scendeva [makes a rattling noise] [laughs] ci voleva una giornata circa più o meno. O se perdevi il treno trovavi, se avevi fortuna trovavi alla stazione dell’autostrada trovavi la polizia, la polizia americana che fermava i camion e chiedeva: ‘Dove vai?’, non so ‘A Pavia’, allora c’è qualcuno che va verso Milano [unclear] allora andate su questo qui. Allora siamo andati a finire su un camion carico di cesti di pesce, in maggio inoltrato sul sole su questo camion [unclear], che poi quando si passava nelle gallerie, bisognava stare sdraiati appicicati nel pesce [laughs], era una cosa [laughs], quando ci penso ci rido sopra perché è stata, erano delle cose pazzesche. Raccontate sembrano [unclear] balle [laughs].
ZG: Senta, io le farei giusto le ultime due domande.
TS: Dimmi tutto perché se non me le fai tu le domande [laughs]
ZG: No, chiaro. All’epoca cosa pensava di chi bombardava?
TS: Di?
ZG: Di chi bombardava lei cosa pensava?
TS: Ah, figli di puttana [laughs], [unclear] diceva perché non stava bene in casa nostra [laughs], ma se avessimo preso, difatti a Milano qualche d’uno che era stato abbattuto e coso, sono stati quelli della X MAS o coso che hanno salvato perché la gente. Quando sono arrivati dopo la liberazione, le prime truppe che sono arrivate non hanno mandato gli inglesi, hann mandato gli americani che l’odio che c’era non era più per gli americani, era per gli inglesi, e ti assicuro che per un periodo di tempo l’Inghilterra, con l’Inghilterra non andavamo molto d’accordo. Mi spiace dirlo se questo qui è per gli inglesi ma si ritengano molto, molto poco amati dagli italiani in quel momento lì. Molto, molto poco [laughs].
ZG: Senta, senta invece adesso, ripensandoci, cosa pensa?
TS: Dico, se hanno voluto andare, vogliono fare, l’Inghilterra a isolottolo perso, andate, andate. Cercate di allontanarvi ancora di più dall’Euriopa possibilmente ecco [laughs].
FS: Posso ricordare a mio papà un evento che non ha raccontato?
ZG: Sì, certo.
TS: Che cosa?
FS: Di tutte le cose che hai raccontato, una cosa che non abbiamo detto a Zeno ma che mi ricordi spesso
TS: Dimmi.
FS: E’ quando mitragliavano i tram.
TS: Guarda, quattro volte mi sono trovato con un aereo che mitragliava il tram, il trenino per andare da Milano a Bergamo, che hanno bombardato, l’hann mitragliato e bombardato anche un pochettino durante il viaggio interno nel parco di Monzo. E noi eravamo con mio fratello, giravamo intorno agli alberi [laughs] mentre quelli venivano, no, vedevamo aerei che venivano per mitragliare e noi giravamo dietro l’albero [laughs] . Poi tanti, mitragliavano tanti tram con la gente dentro, e difatti parecchi morti li hann fatti anche lì e coi camion. Coi camion c’era uno sempre sdraiato sul tetto del camion che guardava se c’era qualche aereo che veniva a mitragliare. Perché Milano era accerchiato, accerchiata dall’insieme di coso. Non erano proprio accerchiati, era che fatto un giro di caccia eccetera eccetera che sparavano contro chiunque andasse. Un carro a cavalli, tiravano [mimics the noise of a machine gun]. Bene visti per così io, non so, tramite il 24 che andava a Baggio, qua, era all’altezza circa dell’Ospedale Militare Baggio e da una parte c’è l’ex antico Forlanini dove c’era ancora l’hangar per il dirigibile Italia [unclear] [laughs]. E mi ricordo quella volta che col 24 l’autista si è accorto che stava arrivando quell’aereo che [unclear], ha fermato il tram, ha aperto le portiere e chi era più vicino alle portiere si buttava come me, buttato [makes a noise] giù dalla scarpata che c’era di là, dentro una roggia, una roggia come diciamo a Milano, canale [unclear], e altri, molti altri che sono morti. E ma quello è stato uno dei tanti, quando c’ero io [laughs] [unclear].
ZG: Direi che possiamo concludere. Grazie mille, signor Tito.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tito Samorè
Description
An account of the resource
Tito Samorè recollects wartime memories in Milan, when he was a member of the Balilla youth organisation. Remembers the outbreak of war and its announcement on the radio. Describes the first bombing of Milan in 1940, stressing how the wooden pannelled attics made it easy for the incendiaries to burn the building. Recollects his fathers attempts to avoid skilled workers being deported to Germany and reminisces on various episodes: food shortages, ration cards, shoot-outs in the streets, strafing of tramways. Describes different kinds of shelters and remembers his evacuee life at Santa Margherita Ligure where he witnessed the sinking of a destroyer. Recollects how he was left maimed for rest of the life after a failed attempt to disassemble a gun shell on 27 February 1944.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Date
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2018-02-06
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:30:54 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Santa Margherita Ligure
Italy--Po River Valley
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1944-02-27
1943-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Identifier
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ASamoreT180206
PSamoreT1801
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
incendiary device
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/PBuffadossiA1701.1.jpg
de29f384fbe6b8a34624abaecadf669e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/ABuffadossiA170528.2.mp3
ddcda3308299dee23387a698645c7f05
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Buffadossi, Annunciata
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Annunciata Buffadossi (b. 1932) who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan and in the Lake Maggiore area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Buffadossi, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ZG: Abbiamo iniziato? Sì.
AB: Il mio nome...
ZG: Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistata è Annunciata Buffadossi. Nella stanza sono presenti Marialuigia Buffadossi, la sorella, Nava Spizzichino, l’amica delle due sorelle, e Sara Buda, come, dell’Associazione Lapsus. Siamo in [omitted] a Milano ed è il 28 maggio 2017. Nell’intervista saranno fatti dei cenni all’intervista fatta precedentemente da Sara Buda alla signora Marialuigia. Iniziamo. Si presenti pure.
AB: Io mi chiamo Buffadossi Annunciata. Sono nata l’11 ottobre 1932 a Milano, perciò sono proprio del tempo di guerra.
ZG: Ehm...
AB: Nel ’32, sono nata nel ’32, perciò è iniziata la guerra nel ’40, quando io avevo otto anni e facevo la terza elementare. Facevo la terza, siccome sono sempre, sono nata in Via Confalonieri 11,
MB: All’Isola.
AB: Eh, all’Isola, che adesso è diventata una zona di pregio, no, perché è la zona della movida e di però ai tempi, miei tempi era una zona molto degradata ed era ritenuta una zona proprio popolarissima, piena di ladri di galline proprio, non di grande, di grande [laughs] levatura. Però io abitavo in una casa che aveva, noi abitavamo nel, al quarto piano, una casa naturalmente senza né ascensore, né niente né, addirittura tanti appartamenti non avevano neanche il servizio in, all’interno. Siccome era una casa di ringhiera, tanti, tutti quelli che abitavano gli appartamenti che erano nella ringhiera, nella parte della ringhiera, avevano il servizio comune per tutti i quattro appartamenti che c’erano nella, sul piano. Perciò case proprio popolarissime. Però la veniva chiamata la casa di sass, perché era una casa molto antica ed era fatta di sasso proprio e dicevano che avesse duecento anni di età questa casa ed era di fronte alla Brown-Boveri , che era una, sì, la Brown-Boveri era una azienda che fabbricava le, forse le armi, era una, insomma una, ed era anche di fronte alle, alle linee varesine. Le linee varesine erano quelle che portavano a Varese, quella zona lì, che adesso invece hanno, sono state trasformate nella, come si chiama, la stazione di Porta Garibaldi, eh, quelle erano le varesine. Perciò potevano venire bombardate ed erano bombardate, era una zona bombardata perché c’era Brown-Boveri, che era proprio di fronte a casa nostra, noi eravamo all’undici, la Brown-Boveri aveva un numero pare, ma proprio di fronte, e di fronte c’erano pure le linee varesine che erano invitanti per i bombardamenti. Quando è arrivata, quando è venuta la guerra, che è stato nel 1940, noi l’abbiamo saputo dalla radio, che avevamo una radio regalata dalla mia nonna, l’unico regalo di mia nonna che, insomma, per quel poco che poteva fare, no, quella nonna lì poteva fare di più ma insomma ci aveva fatto solo il regalo della radio, avevamo saputo che era stata, scoppiata la guerra nel 1940. Da un discorso di Mussolini che diceva: ’Italiani, al di là del mare, al di là dei monti’, l’Italia insomma adesso mi ricordo che faceva dei discorsi roboanti proprio, che però prendeva tanta gente di, dalla parte proprio della passione così, comunque. Mio padre non era, né un fascista né niente, non aveva, perché aveva fatto sì la guerra del ’14-18, però siccome non era fra gli Arditi, era un alpino di artiglieria di montagna, che un tempo invece degli Alpini c’erano, c’era l’artiglieria di montagna. E’ che il papà amava molto sulla, cosa aveva fatto, sul, eh non mi ricordo più, comunque parlava sempre di avere fatto la guerra nell’artiglieria di montagna. Amava gli asini, che erano i compagni, i compagni degli artiglieri perché gli ha, ha salvato tante vite eh l’asino, il mulo anzi, più che l’asino il mulo perché portava, aveva.
ZG: Ma.
AB: Un capo, non so. Comunque mio padre quando raccontava le sue imprese, però non l’aveva finita, perché si era ammalato, aveva avuto la polmonite e l’avevano messo nelle retrovie. Perciò non aveva visto la fine della guerra ed era diventato l’attendente del colonnello, di un colonnello che stava a Torino ed era il capo della, dell’accademia degli artiglieri mi pare perciò mio padre, ecco. Però veniva da un paese della Lomellina, che erano contadini. Niente, questo per quanto riguarda la mia famiglia.
ZG: Eh
AB: Mio padre faceva il muratore, però veniva da un paese di contadini. E la mia mamma veniva sempre da un paese di contadini che era la Lomellina ed era, faceva la sarta. Io avevo una sorella maggiore, che era mia sorella Marialuisa che era della. Marialuisa, Io dico sempre Marialuisa ma il vero nome è Marialuigia perché così è. Rinnovava la nonna, sa che un tempo si rinnovava, io invece avevo rinnovato la nonna da parte materna, mia sorella invece da parte paterna ed era la preferita da, da quelle nonne lì, da quella nonna lì, mentre io ero la preferita della nonna Mussiada, insomma, è logico. Comunque quando è scoppiata la guerra, io facevo le elementari. Mi ricordo quando era scoppiato perché c’era stato il discorso del, di Mussolini. Il fratello di mia mamma, invece, siccome aveva fatto la guerra negli Arditi, era del 1800 eh perciò erano, avevano fatto la guerra del, era fra gli Arditi, era diventato un fascista, era piuttosto fascista perché gli Arditi, che erano del, del gruppo del, insomma erano tutti fascisti quando erano tornati dalla guerra, ti ricordi eh, lo zio Berto, ehm. Però era una bravissima persona, eh, una persona retta, che si interessava delle colonie per mandare, le colonie i bambini, che a quel tempo, se non andavano a fare la villeggiatura nelle colonie, i bambini non vedevano il mare neanche dopo vent’anni. Io ero stata mandata a Pietra Ligure per esempio, tant’è vero che avevo fatto la prima comunione a Pietra Ligure quando ero lì nella colonia, mandata da mio zio, che non avevo che da ringraziare perché ero una, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta [laughs] nel ’41 forse, ’41 o ’42, non so, perciò ero, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta, se no non conoscevo. Conoscevo la campagna della Lomellina quando andavo a trovare la mia nonna contadina e se no, non conoscevo altro. Comunque, vabbe’. Quando è scoppiata la guerra, io per i primi anni sono stata a Milano e ho finito la scuola, le elementari qui perciò devo averlo finito nel ’42, perché avevo dieci anni. Però mia mamma aveva cercato di mandarmi a, sfollata presso mia zia che abitava a Pallanza sul Lago Maggiore. E lì, purtroppo ecco lì non mi piaceva tanto perché mi trovavo bene con la mia zia, che era la mia zia preferita però tutte le sere, quasi tutte le notti si sentivano gli aerei che passavano sopra il Lago Maggiore. Venivano dalla Francia probabilmente, o dalla Svizzera, non lo so, e si sentivano i rumori e noi dicevamo tutti, sia mia zia sia le mie compagne di scuola che sentivo, che parlavo con le amichette, dicevo: ’Questi sono gli aerei che vanno a bombardare Milano’. Perché passavano sul Lago Maggiore, passavano Luino e venivano a Milano e questo mi faceva un bel dispiacere perchè io sapevo che a casa c’erano la mia mamma, il mio papà e mio fratello. Mia sorella no perché nel ’43 era andata, sapevo che era sfollata sul Lago di Como, perché era andata in banca e la banca aveva sfollato tutti i suoi dipendenti sul Lago Maggiore, eh sul Lago di Como. Perciò per lei ero tranquilla. Sapevo, sentivano dei bombardamenti. Nel ’43 è stato l’anno proprio brutto per i bombardamenti perché si sentiva parlare dei bombardamenti su Milano, massicci, proprio i più brutti, infatti c’erano stati tanti morti. Siccome noi abitavamo in una casa di fronte a un’azienda che faceva, che faceva proiettili, non so, era la Brown-Boveri , era una ditta che faceva forniture per la guerra, era pericolosa. E in più di fronte anche alle varesine, alle linee varesine era una casa, tant’è vero che avevano buttato delle bombe e avevano bruciato tutte le gelosie. Una volta le gelosie rientravano dentro nella, non so se voi, no, voi siete giovani non lo sapete, ma una volta rientravano nel muro e si chiamavano le gelosie. Erano di legno. Naturalmente hanno buttando tante bombe incendiarie hanno bruciato tutte le gelosie della nostra casa e lì mio padre che era il capofabbricato era, ha dovuto intervenire, fare venire non so i pompieri, quello che era, però ha annerito tutto il davanti della casa e abbiamo avuto delle, non era successo nient’altro però tanti rimanevano senza casa ad un certo momento. Noi abbiamo avuto solo quell’inconveniente lì delle gelosie, però, che erano bruciate e non so, adesso non mi ricordo più come. Ad un certo momento però io nel ’43, alla fine del ’43 dovevo fare l’esame di ammissione per la scuola media perché volevo fare la scuola media, che dopo forse avrei fatto magari le magistrali come mia sorella però i miei non potevano farmi studiare. Comunque c’era la mia sorella che lavorava, lavorava in banca, insomma avevamo qualche cosa di più da poter contare. E ho fatto la scuola, l’esame di ammissione alla scuola media lì a Pallanza e poi sarei tornata per fare la scuola media a Milano e sono ritornata nel ’43, ’44. Nel ’44 avevo quanti, dodici anni, avrei fatto la seconda media, ma ho fatto anche la prima media a Milano. E siccome non c’erano scuole, tutte le scuole medie erano un po’, sono andata a finire nella scuola che c’è in Via Giusti che è una scuola per capomastri. Infatti la mia scuola mi ricordo che aveva tutti i disegni, tutte le formine di architravi, cose del genere, però era diventata una scuola media perchè scuole per capomastri non venivano fatti in tempo di guerra, erano tutti ragazzotti che erano stati richiamati, avevano magari sedici, diciasette anni, erano richiamati. E allora andavo e tutti i giorni da, dall’Isola mi portavano nella zona dei cinesi, la Via,
MB: Paolo Sarpi
AB: Via Giusti, Via Paolo Sarpi, perchè la mia scuola era nella via che proseguiva la Via Giusti, la Via Giusti. Andavo però sempre accompagnata da un mio compagno di, un vicino che studiava nelle scuole che aveva un anno più di me e perciò non era richiamato perché, eh. E veniva, mi accompagnava, facevo tutta la strada insieme, dovevo passare dalla Via Guercino dove c’erano, dove c’era il comando dei, e dalla scuola Tenca, la scuola Tenca che adesso è la scuola magistrale che aveva frequentato mia sorella, che era la sede della Muti. La Muti era un’associazione di fascistotti, ragazzotti fascisti, che mettevano una paura solo con la loro divisa, non so lei no lei che non se ne ricorda ma io quando passavo davanti alla scuola Tenca, che era una scuola che mi piaceva perché era la scuola di mia sorella, mi faceva paura perché si vedevano questi ragazzotti che avevano sui diciotto, vent’anni, tutti vestiti di nero, con i baschi con il pennacchio rosso, era una cosa, con gli scarponi che facevano un rumore solo a sentir scandire queste, queste passi, erano una cosa che metteva, e io dovevo passare anche dalla Via Guercino dove c’era la sede dei tedeschi. Era terribile, la Via Guercino era sempre piena di questi tedescotti che mettevano paura perché marciavano in una maniera diversa da, anche dai nostri, che so io, dai nostri alpini, dai nostri bersaglieri che erano simpatici, così. Loro erano, facevano paura proprio, ecco. E io tutti i giorni dovevo fare e ogni tanto si sentiva suonare l’allarme perché di giorno, bombardavano anche di giorno, soprattutto di sera ma di giorno bombardavano e allora si sentiva. Noi eravamo a scuola e allora dovevamo scendere nelle cantine che io ero anche contenta eh di questa facenda perché mi impediva di essere interrogata, perché mi piaceva. Fra l’altro la mia professoressa di latino e di italiano e di latino così, era la professoressa Lighini che era la sorella del dottor Lighini, che, dell’ingegner Lighini che era il luogotenente del generale Cadorna e perciò lei non diceva mai, non parlava mai dei ribelli come erano chiamati i partigiani, erano chiamati ribelli no, non erano chiamati partigiani. I partigiani sono venuti dopo, quando dopo la fine della guerra che allora erano partigiani. Lei diceva sempre: ’ quei ragazzi’, i ragazzi che sono contro i fascisti logicamente, però sono partigiani, parteggiano per una certa parte. L’abbiamo saputo dopo che era la sorella di un, del luogotenente di, del generale Cadorna e infatti dopo era diventata la preside della Carlo Tenca perché era diventata, era la sorella di un cotanto personaggio, eh, perciò. E allora, questo per quanto riguarda i miei ricordi di. Invece di notte suonava sempre l’allarme, spesso l’allarme ma mia mamma non aveva paura e io pure non avevo paura, poi ero un po’ smemorata, non sentivo neanche l’allarme, non lo sentivo. Mia mamma se non mi svegliava io dormivo beatamente poi quando aveva l’allarme, il cessato allarme, mi risvegliavo ma andavo avanti a dormire. Invece mio padre scappava via come una lepre perchè era un pauroso, prendeva su la valigia dove c’erano tutti i tesori della famiglia e andava in cantina con mio fratello, mia sorella non c’era perché era sfollata e noi andavamo, andavamo avanti così. Alla fine della guerra quando c’è stata il 25 aprile, io mi ricordo che in Via Borseri che è una via dell’Isola era passato un convoglio di tedeschi con davanti l’ufficiale con, che imbraccava la rivoltella e faceva così con la mano per tener lontano perché tutta la gente lì che guardava i tedeschi che se ne andavano finalmente, perché mettevano paura, erano vestiti e si atteggiavano in una maniera che mettevano paura solo a vederli, mettevano paura. I fascisti vestiti, quelli della, delle brigate nere e i tedeschi mettevano proprio paura. Erano arrivati i partigiani. Ad un certo momento i partigiani però, insomma ne hanno fatte anche loro perché uccidevano i fascisti o quelli che ritenevano tali. Ci sono state tante vendette anche, insomma, fatte, fatte così ad arte che. Noi avevamo il nostro Don Eugenio Bussa che era il capo della Chiesa del Sacro Volto, che aveva salvato tanti ebrei, ma vicino al loro oratorio, c’era un muro dove venivano uccisi i partigiani che venivano presi o renitenti alla leva, perché c’erano tanti renitenti alla leva. Anche nella nostra casa c’erano due o tre amici di mia sorella che erano del ’24, ’25, che erano proprio giusto giusto per essere renitenti alla leva e loro cercavano di non andare, di non essere, perché se no andavano in Germania e non ritornavano più. E la guerra non la volevano fare, giustamente, perché poi, dopo il ’43 quando c’era stata l’armistizio, tanti erano scappati, magari erano anche militari ma erano scappati come un mio zio, quello zio lì del Lago Maggiore che era un carabiniere che era in Iugoslavia neh, si era levato le mostrine di carabiniere perché se no lo ammazzavano e si era presentato come un povero profugo, era riuscito però era stato preso dai tedeschi e mandato in Germania. Però è riuscito a sopravvivere perché mangiava, però quando ritornava, quando è ritornato ci ha raccontato che mangiava la pelle delle patate che buttavano via i tedeschi. Mio zio era molto furbo, eh furbetto anche lui ma, però insomma, che lavorava in banca anche lui, però all’istituto, dov’era, al, ehm, coso di Novara, ne. E lì a Pallanza c’era la, ma era furbo furbo mio zio e perché per riuscire a e quando è ritornato però, è ritornato nel ’46 o ’47 dopo perché, sa, prima che ritornassero indietro, ma insomma, comunque, è ritornato. Io poi mi ricordo altre cose. Che ogni tanto, con la mia mamma, andavamo al paese di mia nonna, che ci dava magari qualche gallina magari che riuscivo perché dovevano portare tutto all’ammasso ai tedeschi e invece lei riusciva a rubacchiare qualche chilo di farina, qualche uovo, qualche gallina, così andavamo lì, prendavamo il treno, andavamo lì a Sartirana, che mia mamma era di Sartirana, e riuscivamo a portare a casa qualche sacchetto di farina, qualche uova, così, che mia mamma sulla stufa faceva, faceva da mangiare. Faceva il pane bianco, che il pane bianco era un dolce addirittura, oppure metteva l’uovo, faceva qualche cosa di, insomma, una gallina che riusciva. Perché la tessera annonaria è continuata anche dopo la fine della guerra eh, perché è continuata mi pare fino al ’47, non, fino al ’47, perciò si è. Non è che si stesse tanto bene anche finita la guerra, no. Mio zio, mio zio, quello lì, il fratello di mia mamma che era un, ritenuto un fascista perché, ma siccome non aveva fatto male a nessuno, anzi, faceva solo piaceri appunto, faceva andare i bambini alle colonie, accompagnava alle colonie così, non ha avuto niente, è scappato dalla mia zia, quella lì di, che era la sua sorella insomma praticamente, lì sul Lago Maggiore, ma è stato via due o tre giorni e poi è ritornato che nessuno gli ha fatto niente, non, perché era una bravissima persona mio zio Berto. Niente, basta, questo per quanto riguarda il. Poi nel ’47 io trovato il lavoro presso un ragioniere, però avevo fatto giusto le tre medie e basta, non avevo né diploma né niente, avevo appunto fatto solo la terza media. E però mi piaceva di più ragioneria che fare le magistrali. Prendevo sempre da mia sorella che gli ricopiavo gli appunti, lei li faceva magari in stenografia, io invece li facevo in chiaro e allora lei mi dava magari una lira o dieci lire forse perché dopo mi pagava di più. E io guadagnavo la mancetta ma dopo prendevo anch’io lo stipendio, poco, perché i ragionieri non pagavano per niente ma insomma piuttosto di niente e poi imparavo. Dopo nel ’47, questo sono andato nel ’47 neh dal ragioniere, ecco. Nel ’47 mi sono iscritta alle scuole civiche, che erano le scuole civiche di Milano che facevano ragioneria al Parini. Al Parini facevano le serali, era la scuola civica di Milano che facevano ragioneria. E poi mi sono nel ’54, no, dopo ho cambiato, però sono andata in una scuola privata alla, al Volta neh, e poi ho fatto gli esami e mi sono diplomata nel ’54 ecco. E nel ’55 invece ho trovato posto a Selezione del Reader’s Digest, era un giornale, era il giornale di, Reader’s Digest era americano, era uno dei giornali più in voga, mensile, è un mensile. Ma faceva, vendeva anche tante e dischi e giradischi e libri e tutto, oltre la rivista, la rivista era, ecco. E sono stata lì 32 anni. 32 anni più 8 del ragioniere ho fatto 40 anni di iscrizione all’INPS, ecco. E nel ’50, nel ’87 invece sono andata in pensione, ecco, con quarant’anni di anzianità. E adesso sono qui, malata, malandata, sì, no, e perché purtroppo con quello che ho avuto non sono, non sto tanto bene, ma.
ZG: Sì. Io volevo fare.
AB: Dica.
ZG: Mi sono segnato un sacco di domande.
AB: Sì.
ZG: Se vuole, iniziamo. Allora. La prima era una curiosità mia. La sua era una famiglia contadina, giusto?
AB: Sì. La mia mamma viene da una famiglia contadina. Anche mio padre veniva da una famiglia contadina, però faceva il muratore. Dalla Lomellina venivano.
ZG: Però una sua nonna ha potuto regalarvi una radio, ha detto prima.
AB: Sì perché mia nonna, la nonna, la mamma di mio papà viveva con la figlia, la quale si era sposata molto bene e aveva, vero, aveva un albergo. Lei, cioè il marito aveva un albergo. Mia nonna era andata a aiutare, era furba, tremenda era mia nonna, era una donna molto in gamba ma un po’ tremenda. Era riuscita, era l’unico regalo che ci aveva fatto, eh, perchè lei naturalmente viveva con la figlia, il figlio lo teneva meno da conto ecco. E l’unica cosa, ma siccome mia sorella si chiamava come lei, quel regalo lì ce l’ha fatto, ecco. E c’aveva regalato la radio, che a quel tempo la radio, avere la radio era una cosa, una cosa che non si poteva, per noi era un lusso, ecco, era un lusso.
ZG: E senta invece, oltre a suo zio, avevate altri parenti che, insomma...
AB: Erano fascisti?
ZG: Sì.
AB: No, altri parenti no, c’era solo mio zio, che era il fratello della mia mamma, l’unico fratello della mia mamma. Perché loro erano in cinque in famiglia, un fratello e quattro sorelle erano. No, solo mio zio, quel mio zio lì.
ZG: E lui come mai non è tornato in guerra?
AB: Chi, mio zio?
ZG: Sì.
AB: Eh mio zio perché aveva fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, era più giovane di mio papà, non era stato richiamato, ma non so per quale ragione. Lavorava dove, lavorava in un’azienda farmaceutica perché aveva un po’ studiato, Perché, adesso le spiego. Sartirana era sotto la, c’era un duca che era il padrone del paese, ducato di Sartirana era ed era imparentato con i, gli Aosta. Tant’è vero che il ragazzino, quando era stato, nel ’42 o ’43 che era, era lì nel castello di Sartirana. Ma mio zio, ma questo duca di Sartirana era, aveva due figlie. Una non si era sposata perché era mezza inscemita. Invece una aveva sposato un principe di Hannover e quando il marito era morto lei, per non perdere il titolo di principessa, non si era più sposata. Però aveva fatto tante, era padrona, praticamente era padrona di tutto il paese, di tutti i terreni, così. Aveva fatto molto per la, per la gente del paese. Per le donne, aveva, ad Alessandria aveva messo su la scuola per sarte e mia mamma l’aveva potuta frequentare, tant’è vero che mia mamma faceva bene, era una brava sarta perché aveva studiato proprio nella scuola della principessa. E invece mio zio l’aveva, si vede forse perché era tornato lì dal, eh no, tu non lo sai perché tu non ti sei mai interessata, ma io le sapevo queste cose perché mia mamma le raccontava, raccontava. La principessa poi aveva preso mia mamma per fare i vestiti di, prima che lei si sposasse, per fare i vestiti, i vestiti di casa delle domestiche insomma e anche per lei, fare i vestiti di casa, così. E li voleva molto bene. Poi siccome si aggirava per i boschi una volta si era persa lì dei boschi de, perché mia mamma abitava in una cascina ma sperduta, vicino alla, Bisognosa si chiamava, si figuri che cascina poteva essere. Comunque era vicino al Po mort perché lì passa, passavano i bracci del Po ma che chiamavano il Po mort perché sono bracci un po’ di, da poco ecco, e che tagliava il Monferrato alla Lomellina. Perché qui c’è la Lomellina dalla parte della, nella parte della Lombardia e invece nella parte del Po ma piemontese c’è il Monferrato e mia mamma veniva dal Monferrato, i suoi del, contadini ma del Monferrato che insomma si sono trasferiti lì nella Lomellina. E una volta si era sperduta la principessa, mia mamma questa qui lo raccontava sempre, e mio nonno l’aveva tirata fuori dai pasticci, come la signora con mia sorella. E allora è diventato e poi l’aveva portata a casa e le aveva presentato la famiglia, era praticamente un suo dipendente perché lavorava le terre della principessa, del duca, del duca di Sartirana e gliele aveva presentate e siccome c’era mia, l’unica che non faceva la contadina era la mia mamma perché faceva la sarta ma se no le sue tre sorelle facevano tutte le contadine. E gliel’aveva, allora lei ogni tanto quando, e poi gli aveva dato da mangiare o da bere, non so, il latte, così, e si era affezionata, la principessa si era affezionata sia alla mia mamma che la, che. Poi aveva dei domestici che erano parenti della mia mamma e perciò era particolarmente, insomma, la conosceva bene. E perciò non. Invece per le donne aveva messo sù questo atelier dove imparavano a fare le sarte e invece per gli uomini li aveva mandati, mio zio veniva dalla guerra ed era un dipendente di, che sarebbe finito di fare il contadino, le aveva fatto studiare, aveva fatto qualche scuola tant’è vero che poi aveva trovato da impiegarsi in questo, in questa la Paganini Villani, che era una ditta farmaceutica. E allora non era andato a militare perché... Poi si era sposato.
ZG: Fantastico. Ehm, senta invece, della vita in Isola, quando eravate in Isola....
AB: Ah, si stava bene, guardi. Io venivo a casa di sera, alle undici di sera, con un nebbione che non, perché venivo a casa dalle, dalla scuola serale. Venivo a casa magari con dei miei compagni che abitavano. Ma io entravo all’Isola che era piena di nebbia da non finire, io mi sentivo sicura, guardi, non avevo nessunissima paura. L’isola era un, una zona bella. La Via Confalonieri, la Via Volturno, la Via Borsieri. Eh, e poi, che si doveva fare la Via Borsieri, Piazzale Tito Minniti, che cos’è, ah cantavi , sì è vero, io salivo dalle, siccome avevo paura invece fare le scale perché ero al quarto piano, allora cantavo, e la gente, però erano le undici, era. Mia mamma mi sentiva, veniva fuori che mi preparava da mangiare perché io mangiavo alle undici di sera, quando ritornavo da scuola. E cominciavo a cantare e allora mia mamma veniva fuori, mi veniva ‘Tina, Tina, Tina’ e io arrivavo a casa e sapevo di essere aspettata, insomma.
ZG: Ma lei faceva le serali quando faceva le medie?
AB: No, facevo le serali quando ero andata dal ragioniere. Quando nel, dopo il ’47. Perchè io le medie le ho finite nel ’45. In aprile del ’45 io ho finito, il 25 aprile io facevo la terza media. Nel ’45 avevo tredici anni, no.
ZG: Eh, senta.
AB: Tant’è vero che non le ho finite, non le ho finite ma mi avevano promosso lo stesso perché.
ZG: E senta, sempre lì in Isola, prima sua sorella faceva riferimento però al fatto che, anche lei le diceva prima che era un quartiere molto popolare, che c’era un po’ di delinquenza.
AB: Oh, sì, sì, era ritenuto un, era ritenuto ed era proprio popolare, popolare, popolare. Case vecchie, erano case vecchie, tutte, Via Borsieri, Via Confalonieri, Via
MB: Via Serio
AB: Viale, no Via Serio era già più avanti, era già più verso la, la fontana. Piazzale Tito Minniti, ecco lì, proprio là, Piazzale Tito Minniti. Quando noi andavamo a fare il mese di maggio nel ’45 si andava in chiesa a fare il mese di maggio, sa, che mese di maggio è mese della Madonna. E mi ricordo che quando siamo passati di lì era il 25 aprile, era appena passato e maggio siamo passati di lì. Io mi ricordo che c’era uno appeso perché era stato ucciso, era stato strangolato, non so, che era il fratello della pollivendola che abitava nella casa ed era stato ucciso dai e alcuni invece li avevano uccisi nel, nel muro dell’oratorio di, del Don Eugenio, che è il Sacro Volto, questa. Lì in Via Volturno c’è la chiesa del Sacro Volto che era la chiesa del Don, Don Bussa, che però dopo è stato fatto uno dei giusti del... Ti ricordi quando il Peppino è andato che l’hanno festeggiato e mio fratello è andato in Israele che avevano, che l’avevano festeggiato, l’avevano. Perciò una personalità, il Don Eugenio.
ZG: Ehm, senta, volevo. Arrivando al periodo della guerra,
AB: Sì.
ZG: Lei ci ha detto prima che ha scoperto tramite la radio che era scoppiata la guerra.
AB: Sì, sì.
ZG: In famiglia se ne era parlato?
AB: Ma, non mi pare. Forse se ne parlava che doveva scoppiare la guerra perché c’era, ma non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo, no.
ZG: E la sera del discorso alla radio di Mussolini, eravate tutti insieme in famiglia?
AB: Eh probabile, probabile, sì, senz’altro.
ZG: Ah ok. Quindi non si ricorda se suo padre o sua madre avevano fatto dei commenti, sul discorso?
AB: No, ma loro non s’interessavano nè di politica nè niente. E non erano neanche nè fascisti nè niente perché.
MB: [unclear]
AB: Eh, sì, c’era mio padre che solo che diceva: ’mi raccomando, scrivete Duce bene, eh, scrivetelo bene’ perché a quel tempo il fascista era ritenuto e anche con mio zio:’ mi raccomando eh, zio Berto’, che era, noi sapevamo che era fascista perché quando era ritornato e poi quando andava a accompagnare i bambini, mia zia, che era la moglie, andava a accompagnare con la moglie del federale, andava a accompagnare i bambini alle colonie, passeggiava avanti e indietro sulle panchine della stazione centrale, a noi sembrava che fosse la moglie del federale invece era la moglie di un povero diavolo, ma insomma. Poi noi eravamo vestiti da piccoli italiani, ti ricordi? Che avevamo le calze nere delle mamme, che a quel tempo portavano le calze nere. Li facevano sulla un bottone e si faceva la,
MB: Ah sì.
AB: Il cappello, si metteva su in testa la calza della mamma con il fondo, mettevano il bottone veniva il cappellino della piccola italiana. Mia mamma m’aveva fatto la divisa eh! Perché a quel tempo si usava così, eh. D’altra parte ancora tanta grazia che ogni tanto davano dei pacchi, ti ricordi, che la
MB: Noi, non ne avevamo mai usufruito.
AB: No, dai, ma non dir pacchi dai
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a dare la.
AB: Io mi ricordo quando andavo a prendere
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera, io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera.
AB: Ah sì, perché forse c’è stato un periodo, forse nel ’38-’39, chiedevano,
MB: Dalle tombole di San Marco [?]
AB: Sì, chiedevano. Il Duce ha chiesto la
MB: L’oro.
AB: L’oro alla patria e allora tutte le donne, anche per farsi vedere, per, davano la vera, la vera, gli ori. Ce n’erano pochi, c’era poco, l’unico oro che avevano erano delle verone perché usavano. Però mia mamma l’aveva portata e dopo se l’era fatta rifare.
[ ZG: laughs]
MB: Perché poverina.
MB: Non so se aveva portato la, quella di mio papà o aveva portato la sua ma so, mi ricordo che erano una, erano vere alte, più alte di quelle che si usano adesso.
ZG: Quindi ha fatto fare rifare la fede?
MB: E aveva fatto rifare la fede.
ZG: E in che materiale era?
MB: Eh materiale d’oro. Aveva…
ZG: Dopo averla donata?
MB: Eh sì, perché dovevano far vedere perché lì venivano scritti, eh. Buffadossi, eh, ha lasciato la vera.
AB: Ha fatto la strada quella sera lì.
ZG: Senta, invece, suo padre era capofabbricato.
AB: Sì.
ZB: Il suo lavoro che cos’era esattamente?
AB: Eh doveva curare che, quando suonava l’allarme, venisse diretto bene il flusso alla cantina perché le cantine erano cantinacce, non erano mica le cantine che ci sono adesso, che sono belle pulite. C’erano, io mi ricordo che passavano i topi, eh, perché erano case vecchie, erano umide così. E doveva guardare che ci fosse le panchine perché mettevano le panchine, la gente andava lì, si sedeva e stava lì ad aspettare, contarsela sù che...
ZG: Quindi lui faceva questo lavoro di insomma far affluire le persone in cantina.
AB: Sì.
ZG: La cantina spettava soltanto al vostro palazzo o c’erano anche altri palazzi che dovevano [unclear]?
AB: No, ogni palazzo aveva la sua cantina.
ZG: E come mai vostro padre non vi svegliava, quando suonava l’allarme?
AB: Eh perché era compito della mia mamma ma mia mamma, lui scappava via [laughs] e mia mamma stava lì. Lei non c’era, c’ero solo io e io non avevo paura come non aveva paura la mia mamma. Mio fratello seguiva mio padre e via, perché lavorava anche lui. Aveva cinque anni più di me, perciò nel ’43 così.
MB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
AB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
ZG: Ma, e non avevate paura neanche dopo che si era incendiato il tetto della casa?
AB: No, non si era incendiato il tetto, si erano incendiato le gelosie.
ZG: Ah, le gelosie, giusto. E neanche dopo quell’occasione?
AB: Io non, non avevo paura, tant’è vero che pochissime volte sono andata giù in cantina. Non mi piaceva perché bisognava andare su e giù dalle scale, mamma mia, e dormivo. No, non mi piaceva.
ZG: E invece quando eravate a scuola è capitato che suonasse l’allarme?
AB: Ah sì, di giorno e lì era di giorno, lì invece mi piaceva perché ero con i miei compagni. Stavamo lì e magari dovevamo essere interrogate perciò c’era andata bene. La professoressa Lighini era un po’ severotta, eh.
ZG: E alle elementari come passavate il tempo nel rifugio?
AB: E niente, chiacchierando, chiacchierando.
ZG: Le maestre non vi, non c’erano compagni spaventati, qualcuno che aveva paura?
AB: Ma era solo le medie, perché io nelle elementari no eh. Nelle elementari non mi è mai successo. Perché nelle elementari, le avevo già finite perchè nel, io sono andata a scuola nelle elementari fino al ’42 perché, ma nel ’42 non c’erano i bombardamenti, ecco, sono incominciati nel ’43 i bombardamenti feroci che erano, che erano, e dopo ’43, dopo che c’era stato l’armistizio, perché prima no. C’erano i tedeschi che erano nostri alleati e noi effettivamente, quando abbiamo fatto l’armistizio li abbiamo lasciati, li abbiamo traditi in un certo senso e adesso.
ZG: Senta invece, tornando invece alle cantine di, a casa vostra. Com’è che le persone scendevano in queste cantine, c’era tipo una gerarchia, scendevano prima alcune persone poi delle altre?
AB: No, no no, venivano giù. Il primo piano era il primo a sedersi e poi c’erano gli altri piani e noi eravamo al quarto piano, eravamo gli ultimi a scendere.
ZG: Ok. Ehm, invece un’altra domanda. Lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore?
AB: Sì, da mia zia, da questa mia zia che era la moglie di un carabinieri che era stato richiamato. Lui era più giovane di mia mamma perché aveva forse un dieci anni, mia zia aveva dieci anni meno, lui era del ’92, lei era del ’02 e lui, eh, sarà stato del ‘900. Perciò nel ’40 quando era stato richiamato aveva quarant’anni.
ZG: Ehm, lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore per sfuggire ai bombardamenti.
AB: Eh sì perché.
ZG: E come mai nel ’43 ha deciso di tornare?
AB: Eh perché mia mamma a un certo momento ha detto: ’ritorna, se moriamo, moriamo tutti insieme’, ecco.
ZG: Ehm, senta invece mi. Volevo farle una serie di domande sempre su, sempre sul quartiere Isola durante proprio il periodo dei bombardamenti. Avevate paura di rapine in casa o?
AB: No, rapine no, perché cosa vuole, si chiudeva la porta. A quel tempo non si chiudeva neanche la porta perché io a dir la verità, avevamo la porta e l’antiporte, erano case così. Ma spesso e volentieri noi andavamo a dormire senza, anche dopo appena finita la guerra non chiudavamo neanche la porta. Non sempre si chiudeva la porta.
MB: Eh dai.
AB: Sa, rapine, cosa vuole che rapinassero in casa nostra? Se portavano via noi [laughs], dovevano darci da mangiare, no no per carità. Non c’era niente da rubare. Giusto quando andavamo al paese della mia nonna, che portavamo a casa quel sacchetto di, e dopo per passare il Ticino perché noi dalla Lomellina bisogna passare il Ticino a Vigevano bisogna passare il Ticino e il treno si fermava prima del Ticino, noi lo facevamo a piedi il pezzo del Ticino perché se no c’era il pericolo che bombardassero e poi c’era un altro treno che dal Ticino, dal ponte del Ticino a Milano via San Cristoforo, e noi poi prendavamo l’8 perché qui girava l’8 in Piazzale Tirana. A quel tempo l’8 era il tram principe per arrivare alla, alla Isola. C’era il 4 e l’8, che girava l’Isola. Noi prendavamo lì da San Cristoforo o da Porta Genova, ma noi scendavamo a San Cristoforo con il nostro pacchettino e il chilo di farina, e due o tre uova, la gallina, così e andavamo a casa, io e la mamma.
ZG: E senta.
AB: Perché tu non sei mai andata a Sartirana quando, invece io andavo con la mia mamma.
ZG: Però suo padre durante i bombardamenti la valigia con i gioielli di famiglia [unclear] [laughs]
AB: Sì, i gioielli [laughs], cosa vuole,
ZG: Quelli lì li portava via però.
AB: Ah sì, li portava via. C’era, io mi ricordo che c’era un taglio di vestito, poi forse c’erano delle lenzuola c’era un, era un valigione tutto grande, sa di quelli di cartone e pressato. Quello, c’era un taglio di vestiti, c’era, c’erano le lenzuola e che cosa d’altro, niente, nient’alto, non c’era nient’altro di, cosa vuole che portasse. E da mangiare, da mangiare sì, portava giù qualche cosa ma, un panino ma, ma non certamente pane e salame che non si trovava. Era tutto tesserato, si figuri.
ZG: Ehm, e gli spostamenti invece erano, per andare al paese di sua nonna erano facili o?
AB: No no, non tanto facili, perché c’era sempre il pericolo che bombardassero il, perché le vie ferrate erano le più, le più appetibili per le bombe, eh capisce? Magari erano spostamenti di forze armate addirittura, non era, non guardavano se. Perché erano odiati poi gli americani perché erano gli americani dicevano, che i russi non bombardavano perché erano troppo lontano. Invece gli americani erano quelli che bombardavano e venivano odiati perché erano loro che bombardavano.
ZG: Ma ehm, della possibilità che le ferrovie potessero venire bombardate lei lo sapeva già allora. Cioè chi glielo diceva?
AB: Eh me lo, eh si sapeva, cosa vuole, si è, si diventa svegli anche, quand’anche, anche se siamo bambini ma.
ZG: Senta invece volevo farle le ultime domande. Tornando al quartiere Isola. Quando mi diceva che aveva paura di attraversare la via in cui c’erano prima i fascisti e poi i tedeschi.
AB: Eh sì. Via Guercino guardi, e la Via Guercino c’era il comando tedesco e prima nella via, quella via lì che poi è attraversata da Via Guercino, c’era la Carlo Tenca ed era la sede delle Brigate Nere. Facevano, mettevano paura proprio, vedeva, sentiva questo passo cadenzato erano magari tre o quattro insieme [makes a thumping noise], le cose chiodate credo che avessero i, mettevano paura.
ZG: Ma avevano anche un atteggiamento nei suoi confronti oppure giravano delle voci su qualcosa?
AB: No, dicevano che erano cattivi e andavano a prendere i renitenti, renitenti alla leva venivano. Ogni tanto passavano le ronde, vero, ti ricordi? No, tu non te lo ricordi, io mi ricordo che nella nostra casa c’era un ragazzo, un ragazzo che era un poco più vecchio del e proprio lui che era il fidanzato di una sua amica che aveva la sua età, lui aveva forse due o tre anni più di lei e quando è stato chiamato che aveva giusto vent’anni è stato chiamato perché mandavano a chiamare no, con un foglio così e lui. I suoi hanno fatto così ma hanno fatto male perché poi vivevano male. Hanno chiuso una camera, l’hanno chiusa e come se non esistesse. Avevano tre camere e invece hanno fatto come se fossero due camere. E in quello lì c’era il ragazzo però ogni tanto lui si, guardava fuori dalla finestra e la gente della casa, guardando fuori, lo vedeva che veniva fuori. Poi lui era sparito, ‘sto ragazzo era sparito, perché era come noi, erano tre figli, lui in quella famiglia lì, era tre, di tre figli maschi. Invece noi, una figlia femmina e aveva 25, a quel tempo era del ’25, il primo, il Camillo avrà avuto, sarà stato del ’22 o del ’23, poi c’era il Franco che aveva l’età di mio fratello e poi c’era l’Antonio che era quello che mi accompagnava a scuola quando andavo a fare le medie, che aveva, era forse, io sono del ’32, lui forse era del ’31 o del ’30. E mi ricordo che mi, mi accompagnava lì in via e mia mamma mi lasciava andare perché se no cosa faceva. Io non potevo andare a scuola, lei non poteva mica venirmi a accompagnare che doveva lavorare [unclear] non faceva tutte queste e allora andavo. Erano proprio come una scalletta così e quando è sparito, che non si è visto più il Camillo, eh, dov’è andato a finire, poi abbiamo capito perché la sua casa, il suo appartamento era di tre camere e ad un certo momento si è trovato solo due camere. Perché era lì. Loro lì si vede che gli passavano da mangiare e via.
ZG: Ma ehm, lo hanno scoperto le autorità?
AB: No, non l’hanno scoperto.
ZG: Qaunto tempo ha passato così?
AB: Eh, avrà passato due anni. Eh sì. Ha vissuto male.
ZG: E poi è riapparso, finita la guerra.
AB: Poi è riapparso. Poi era fidanzato con, con la
MB: Con la Bruna.
AB: Con la Bruna.
ZG: Ehm
AB: Che poi non ha sposato però.
ZG: Senta invece, l’altra storia di quartiere, mi può parlarmi di quella di Don Eugenio?
AB: E di Don Eugenio era ritenuto una brava, una bravissima persona, infatti dopo, finita la guerra, è stato l’unico che ha messo su sulla. L’oratorio, nell’oratorio dove prendeva solo i ragazzi, i maschi, non era un oratorio misto. Però lui ha fatto, faceva i film al giovedì e alla domenica mi pare, i film che noi, il cinema non si andava al cinema, invece da lui si vedevano dei bei film, magari.
MB: La sera.
AB: Alla sera.
MB: L’Amante indiana.
AB: L’Amante indiana. Una volta abbiamo visto, sì, era bello. I film che magari non erano recentissimi però per noi erano recente perché non vedevamo mai niente. Cinema, dov’è che, c’era il Vox, c’era il Farini come qui nel, il Vox che era in Via Farini. E il Farini che è in Via Farini. E lì erano due cinema che c’erano in tutta la, in tutta l’Isola. Perché gli altri, non c’erano altri e noi si andava lì a. Ah, poi faceva il teatro e le parti da donna le faceva fare dagli uomini, neh. Eh perché non si usava fare, le ragazze, fate lavorare le ragazze. Però erano belle perché poi a un, ah, ecco dell’Alfredo e del Luciano. Nella casa di Don Eugenio poi era stata messa una famiglia di gente che veniva forse da Rovigo così, neh. Comunque insomma era stata messa che i Bussa erano andati a stare con il Don Eugenio a fare la mamma e la sorella, gli facevano da perpetua diciamo ed erano state, stavano lì in canonica con il e in questa casa è stato il Luciano, c’era l’Alfredo che aveva, era un pochettino più vecchio di te e il Luciano che era un pochettino più vecchio di me. Siccome era un ragazzotto che un po’ avventuroso, il Luciano l’ultimo figlio che ehm, non so, si era messo nei pasticci, era stato messo in prigione a San Vittore. Un ragazzo che poco più vecchio di me, avrà avuto, nel ’44 così avrà avuto, io quanti avevo, avevo dodici anni, lui avrà avuto un quindici anni eh. Era stato messo e allora lì. Sua mamma, siccome noi avevamo la legna, facevamo andare la stufa e avevamo la legna perché mio padre portava a casa dei rimasugli di legna e la sua mamma veniva sempre su da noi che così si scaldava e nello stesso tempo chiacchierava lì con la mia mamma. Mia mamma lavorava a macchina e lei, lei chiacchierava. Era grossa [emphasises], era grossissima. Sì, la mamma del, eh dai, dell’Alfredo, no, no, era, sarà stato un centocinquanta chili. E non avevamo né poltrone né sedie per farla sedere allora si sedeva in una cassa dove c’era dentro la legna, però un giorno si è seduta, l’ha sfondata [laughs], ed è caduta dentro la cassa. La cassa era una cassa di legno ma grande eh, grande così. Il coperchio si è rovesciato e lei è caduta dentro. È che da rompersi l’osso del collo, altro che fare il [unclear].
ZG: E questo, e Don Eugenio ha aiutato il, il ragazzo a San Vittore?
AB: Eh, credo di sì. Eh certo che l’avrà aiutato, avrà cercato di portarlo fuori perché era un suo protetto, era uno di quelli.
ZG: E voi avete scoperto che Don Eugenio ha aiutato degli ebrei e dei partigiani dopo, finita la guerra?
AB: No, questo l’abbiamo, questo l’abbiamo scoperto finita la guerra. Che abbiamo saputo che lui ha salvato degli ebrei e dei partigiani. Mentre invece, sono venuti. Questo l’abbiamo saputo dopo. E quello di, della, quando è stato, è stato un po’, è stato poi mica neanche tanti anni fa che l’hanno, hanno messo l’albero dei giusti. Perché sa che gli ebrei hanno una foresta fatta con gli alberi.
MB: [laughs] Perché sai che, sì [laughs]
AB: E perché, non è così? è vero. C’è una foresta fatta solo di alberi con i nomi dei giusti che hanno aiutato gli ebrei.
ZG: Senta, le faccio le ultime due domande. Il Pippo, cosa si ricorda del Pippo?
AB: E del Pippo dicevano che era un italiano andato in America, un americano che era diventato diventato americano e che veniva a bombardare [background noise]
AB: Buongiorno, scusi tanto. Dicevano così e, si diceva che fosse un italiano americano che avesse delle spiate di qualcuno che gli diceva dove buttare la bomba. Ma lo chiamavano il Pippo, non so io. Era noto dappertutto dicevano il Pippo. Stanotte arriva il Pippo perché guardavano la giornata, se era una bella giornata questo si sapeva quando si, quando era in. Noi, io ero sul Lago Maggiore, se era una bella giornata, oggi il Pippo va a Milano. E noi avevamo paura perché a Milano c’erano tutti, tutti quelli sfollati perché ce n’erano di sfollati lì sul Lago Maggiore.
ZG: Ehm, questa storia qua lì del Pippo chi la raccontava?
AB: Eh ma tutti lo dicevano. Parlando sì, tutti. Perchè vede anche mia sorella lo sapeva che, non sapeva niente mia sorella perché mia sorella non. Io invece parlavo con gli altri bambini, gli altri, perché giocavamo eh, nonostante la guerra, noi si giocava per la strada in Via Confalonieri, si correva, si faceva. Poi nella, nella nostra casa, in Via Confalonieri 11, c’era un bel cortile che adesso dopo ultimamente era diventato il box di tutta la gente che, ma un tempo. Che bel colore di pantaloni che ha, e molto, è vero.
ZG: Senta, proprio ultimissime domande. Lei sapeva chi vi bombardava?
AB: Dicevano gli americani.
ZG: Che cosa, che cosa pensava allora di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh male. Perché devono bombardarci, di colpa non ne abbiamo noi, noi gente. I civili che cosa devono fare? I soldati va bene, sono comandati, ma noi che non eravamo neanche comandati, non sparavamo mica a loro. Eh, bombardarci voleva dire farci fare la morte del topo proprio perché non potevamo scappare, potevamo andare via.
ZG: Finita la guerra, ha più ripensato a, ai bombardamenti, a cosa si provava?
AB: No, perché dopo, quando sono venuti gli americani, gli americani hanno portato l’UNRRA, c’era l’UNRRA che davano le stoffe,
MB: I vestiti.
AB: Che davano i vestiti, così e vabbè, ben, ringraziamo, cosa dobbiamo fare.
ZG: Senta, adesso che cosa pensa invece di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh sempre male perché non era mica giusto. Però d’altra parte anche noi che abbiamo tradito i tedeschi, cosa pretendi. E poi se la prendevano con noi, con la gente inerme, mentre invece erano i capi che avevano sbagliato eh. Il re per esempio si è comportato male.
ZG: Senta, ultimissimissima domanda. La casa di sass, la vostra casa. Esiste ancora?
AB: Sì, certo. Adesso c’è la targa proprio per il Don Eugenio. C’è la targa che all’11 di Via Confalonieri, lei vede la targa proprio che qui è stata la casa dove è vissuto Don Eugenio Bussa, uno dei giusti d’Israele mi pare, mi pare che ci sia. Che è bruttissima. Adesso però l’hanno un po’ rimessa a posto perché mi pare che abbiano messo l’ascensore. Figuriamoci che noi la facevamo tutta a piedi, adesso adesso chissà come farei.
ZG: Senta, io vi ringrazio moltissimo e concluderei l’intervista.
AB: Va bene. Che sono intervenuta quando non dovevo.
ZG: Ma no.
SB: Ma no, ci mancherebbe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Annunciata Buffadossi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Annunciata Buffadossi recollects her wartime life in Milan. Annunciata stresses poor-quality housing in a low-class neighbourhood close to potential targets; emphasises how much she feared Germans and Fascists; and speaks with affection of her old house, a block of flats with shared balconies. Describes the effects of fire on her house and recollects how shelter life was like. Contrasts the boldness of her mother with the behaviour of her father, who was easily frightened in spite of his role as warden. Annunciata stresses her own care-free attitude, explaining how day bombings were welcomed as opportunities to skip school tests, and night attacks regarded as an annoyance rather than a serious menace. Mentions her brief evacuee experience which ended in 1943, when the bombing war intensified and the family resolved to face the danger together in Milan. Describes aircraft flying over Lake Maggiore, and how children tried to guess their target. Describes subterfuges to get food in spite of rationing, and mentions many war-related anecdotes: reprisals and post-war revenge, a draft dodger hiding in a concealed room for years, and military internees. Mentions Eugenio Bussa, one of the Righteous Among the Nations, explaining his benevolent activities, as well as his role as helpers of partisans and Jews. Tells many anecdotes of her relatives, especially in connection with the Duchess of Sartirana and her charitable activities. Describes Pippo as an aircraft piloted by an Italian American, who relied on information passed to him by helpers. Describes Americans as generally hated for the bombing of cities and killing innocent people. Links the bombing war with Italy’s change of allegiance and recognises the contribution of the allied after the end of the conflict.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-05-28
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:19:20 audio recording
Language
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ita
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pietra Ligure
Italy--Pallanza
Europe--Lake Maggiore
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Identifier
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ABuffadossiA170528
PBuffadossiA1701
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
fear
Holocaust
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/172/410/AColomboS161203.2.mp3
b629dae753178122dfd78c8f8671095d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/172/410/PColomboS1602.1.jpg
3ff2c03b49be64a9108a83ed14dad24e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Colombo, Santina
S Colombo
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Santina Colombo who recollects wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Colombo, S
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: L’intervista è condotta per l’international Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervistata è Santina Colombo e nella stanza è presente Greta Fedele, come parente, e sara Troglio dell’associazione Lapsus. È il 3 dicembre 2016, e siamo in via [omitted] a Milano. Iniziamo. Prima della guerra, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
SC: Contadini. Ma la mamma era a casa perché aveva, avevo il fratellino che aveva quattro anni, mia sorella ne aveva sette e io ne avevo undici prima della guerra.
ZG: Qual è il ricordo più lontano nel tempo che ha?
SC: Il ricordo più lontano è quando sono morti i nonni, diciamo, e poi quando c’era mio zio lì nel cortile dove abitavo io, io abitavo al primo piano, lui al pianterreno, facevano i contadini però avevano la radio e quando hanno comunicato che il Duce ha fatto la, si è messo con Hitler, tutti contenti all’inizio ma c’era anche chi non era contento, come mio papà, è sempre stato un comunista, no, socialista, socialista, e non era contento. E poi, il pensiero della guerra, perché iniziava la guerra dopo. Quello lì è il ricordo più brutto che ho, quando ero una bambina ecco.
ZG: Mi racconti un pochino della sua famiglia.
SC: Sì.
ZG: Come viveva la sua famiglia prima della guerra.
SC: Prima della guerra, dunque… Papà è nato nel ’91 e la mamma nel ’99, 1999 [sic]. E si sono sposati nel ’27 o ’28, io sono nata nel ’29 eh. Papà era contadino, sempre stato contadino e la mamma pure, che non è mai andata al lavoro negli stabilimenti, faceva la contadina. Quando sono nata io la mamma è stata a casa. Dopo, avevo quattro anni, avevo quattro anni, è nata mia sorella, è nata mia sorella e la mamma non è più andata al lavoro finché nel ’36 è nato mio fratello, è andata al lavoro, ha cominciato nel 1940 andare al lavoro ancora. Io ero la più grande e dovevo curare sorella e fratello, anche se ero ancora piccolina io [laughs]. Però, però non c’era niente da mangiare, è quello perché… la carne si mangiava a Natale, a Pasqua e alla festa del paese, la carne. E se no c’era il risotto col lardo, o risotto coi fagioli, minestra e taleggio e una mela in cinque. Che papà la sbucciava, io ero la più grandina, ero qua vicina, una fettina perché si può immaginare una mela in cinque, la dava prima a me, poi la dava a mia sorella di là intanto che lei guardava la mela io le davo una pedata sotto il tavolo, e la mela gliela mangiavo io [laughs], perché insomma ero la più grande e insomma non bastava quello che mi dava perché anche la minestra e il risotto era abbastanza poco. Lavorava solo il papà, eravamo in cinque. Non è che avevamo l’appartamento perché c’era un locale un po’ più grande di questo, il papà l’aveva diviso a metà con delle perline di legno, c’era la camera con il letto matrimoniale del papà e la mamma e i tre lettini per noi e la cucina ci stavamo appena appena dentro a mangiare. Poi il papà aveva preso un pezzettino, il cortile era grande e gliel’ha chiesto lì al proprietario, le ha dato un pezzettino di terreno, ha fatto l’orto. Fatto l’orto con un bel sgabuzzino di legno e lì coltivava la verdura, lui è sempre stato coltivatore di verdure e quando avevamo i soldi, perché i soldi li portava a casa solo lui, avevamo i soldi, ho detto ‘io prendo due oche, prendo due oche, li metto là nel giardino e la sera, la sera le portiamo di sopra perché se no ce le portano via’. In più alla sera in casa aveva fatto come un, non diciamo stabiello per il maiale, però ha fatto un recintino piccolino con della paglia sotto per le due oche che metteva lì alla sera andava giù a prenderle e portava di sopra. Il mattino le portava giù prima di andare al lavoro, erano giù. E noi andavamo là, noi bambini portavamo un pezzettino di pane ma poco perché mancava a noi e le davamo da mangiare. Però prima di Natale, quando era buona per ucciderla, la uccidevano e la mettevano dentro nella, adesso non ricordo più come si chiama, si chiama giara o cosa, che la facevano andare con il lardo e un po’ di olio poco, burro, perché l’olio costava di più del burro e la mettevano dentro a pezzi, dentro ne quella giara lì, sotto la finestra in camera, che prendeva un po’ di freddo, e ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni quindici o venti giorni tiravano fuori un pezzettino, la facevano andare con le verze, una specie di verzata. Piuttosto del maiale si metteva l’oca e si mangiava, però andava benone. Quello che mi ricordo prima della guerra, dopo [laughs].
ZG: È stata fantastica. Ehm, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
SC: Sì. Quando è scoppiata la guerra dove abitavamo noi, in via Lampugnano al 175, e lì erano tutte case a pianterreno, primo piano e pianterreno, cantine non ce n’erano. Quando suonava l’allarme per i bombardamenti dovevamo fare la via Lampugnano, andare in via Beolchi, dove c’era la casa lì, che era una casa fatta su cantine e lì era il rifugio, ma era una cantina diciamo e però ci trovavamo là tutti assieme. Di notte quando suonava l’allarme, dovevamo saltare fuori dal letto, coprirsi con la coperta che avevamo su sul letto e scappare via con gli zoccoli, e via e andare. Stavamo là finchè suonava il cessate allarme e poi si tornava a casa. Poi una volta, mi ricordo che avevo dodici anni, e sono andata con mia mamma in via Novara, che lì aveva degli amici, dei parenti, degli amici più che parenti, che abitavano qui, si erano sposati e l’hanno invitata ad andare là a vedere la sua casa. E siamo andati, mi ha detto vieni anche te, vieni anche te. Eravamo lì che stavamo per partire, venivi a casa a piedi eh, da via Novara che dopo comincia via Rubens, e suona l’allarme, abbiamo dovuto fermarci lì e siamo andati giù nel rifugio lì suo dove abitavano loro. Suonato il cessate allarme, abbiam preso e siamo venuti a casa. Sulla via Novara sui marciapiedi abbiamo visto tre morti che sembravano, non dico lo spavento che ho preso quella volta lì perché c’erano fuori gli han sparato proprio nella testa che è andata giù una bomba in Via Novara dove ci sono tutte quelle case lì adesso, ecco. Comunque niente, siamo venuti a casa e tutta spaventata io perché, eh, era la prima volta che vedevo i morti così. Sì avevamo paura che quando suonava l’allarme perché si diceva se viene giù una bomba qui altro che andare giù con la casa qui. Però. Così.
ZG: Invece proprio, si ricorda del giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra? Di come gliene avevano parlato gli adulti, di come gli è arrivata la notizia?
SC: Sì, come l’ha detto mio zio lì che aveva la radio lui che avevano fatto il patto con Hitler e, però il giorno preciso non mi ricordo, perché ero una bambina, eh. Mi ricordo quel giorno qui, quando hanno ammazzato quei partigiani lì.
ZG: Mi racconti pure.
SC: Ecco. Quel giorno qui era il 26 aprile del 1945. Il 25 aprile la radio aveva detto che la guerra era finita. Il 26 aprile del 1945, mentre sorgeva l’alba della liberazione, cadevano al loro posto di combattimento Casiraghi Eugenio di anni 37, Del Vecchio Luigi di anni 42 e Grassi Erminio di anni 22. Erano partigiani della 44esima Brigata Matteotti. E sono stati i fascisti di questo rione, di Trenno, perché prima si chiamava Trenno, e sono stati i fascisti a dirli, ‘andate lì in via Novara che arrivano i partigiani, vi danno dei sacchetti di roba da mangiare’. Loro c’hann creduto e quando sono stati lì all’altezza lì dove c’è l’Harbour in via Cascina Bellaria e lì li hanno ammazzati dentro in un fossettino. Li hanno fatti buttare dentro, li hanno detto di andare dentro nel fossettino, li hanno uccisi loro, i fascisti di Trenno. E meno mal che el mi mari non è andato perché doveva andare anche lui, assieme al Grassi Erminio che era suo amico.
ZG: Si ricorda perché li uccisero?
SC: Eh perché erano partigiani e non erano fascisti. Perché qui ce n’erano diversi eh di fascisti a Trenno.
ZG: Dei fascisti, cosa è successo dopo, insomma a queste persone che?
SC: Dei fascisti, c’erano dei fascisti che abitavano a Trenno e erano lì in via Novara dove adesso c’è la Rete, l’albergo, il ristorante La rete che adesso è chiusa. Erano lì in via Novara e siccome, come le ripeto mio papà era un socialista e non aveva la tessera dei fascisti, mio papà e dieci altre persone assieme a mio papà li hann portati lì in via Novara e li han dato giù una bottiglia di olio di ricino da bere di mezzo litro a tutti e dieci, che son stati male dopo per cinque o sei giorni, ecco. Erano gente, amici qui di Trenno, proprio che si conoscevano.
ZG: E dopo la guerra, a questi fascisti qua cosa è successo?
SC: E dopo la guerra meno mal chi mort, pace all’anima sua che son morti senza ammazzarli noi, perché l’odio c’era eh solo che beh io ero una bambina, però mio papà e gli altri suoi amici che sono andati là a bere l’olio di ricino avevano voglia di ucciderli loro. Invece son morti. Dopo la guerra a uno a uno sono andati tutti e cinque, che abitavano lì in via Rizzardi avanti.
ZG: Tornando, diciamo, alla guerra, ai bombardamenti, lei cosa faceva durante la guerra, lavorava ha detto, e dove lavorava?
SC: No, ho lavorato due anni all’ippodromo San Siro a tirar su i sassi, però per tre o quattro mesi. Poi ho incominciato a imparare a fare la rammendatrice, a quindici anni ho imparato a fare la rammendatrice, poi sono andata a diciassette in una ditta in via Lario che andavo in bicicletta da qui fino là in via Lario che è vicino al Niguarda in bicicletta anche se pioveva in mano la bicicletta con mano l’ombrello e andavo là a lavorare, fare la rammendatrice. Che lavoravamo i tessuti che venivano da Biella per il Galtrucco di Milano.
ZG: E Le è mai capitato che suonasse un allarme antiaereo quando era sul posto di lavoro?
SC: No, no, perché lì ho cominciato a diciassette anni.
ZG: Quando… quindi l’allarme antiaereo le è capitato che suonasse solo quando lei era ancora a casa.
SC: Quando ero a casa che stavo imparando a rammendare in via Belfiore, allora lì sì anche lì che ero lì imparare a rammendare è suonato l’allarme e mi ricordo che la proprietaria del negozio lì dove stavo imparando aveva la casa dove c’è adesso il, prima c’era il Zenith in Corso Vercelli all’inizio e adesso invece mi sembra che c’è una libreria, prima c’era il Zenith, e lei abitava lì e una bomba è andata giù e ha buttato giù tutto e lei è rimasta senza casa né niente. Meno male che era lì nel negozio e che ero da sola, è stata lì e mi ricordo che eravamo lì quando è suonato l’allarme siamo andati in un’altra casa che avevano anche lì la cantina e siamo andati lì. Però eravamo in via Belfiore e la bomba è andata giù in Corso Vercelli. Anche lì un bello spavento perché dopo avevo paura a venire a casa perché venivo a casa a piedi da lì eh. Dopo non passavano più né tram né autobus perché andando giù la casa avevano ostruiti anche il passaggio dei tram che arrivavano fino a qui in Perrucchetti.
ZG: Quando eravate nei rifugi, nelle cantine, come passavate il tempo?
SC: Pregando. Pregando tutti, anche gli uomini, che rispondevano [pauses] Nella paura, eh.
ZG: Si ricorda che preghiere facevate?
SC: L’Ave Maria e il Padre Nostro. C’erano le donne più anziane che dicevano “oh Signur, oh Signur, e tont i, e tont i” e poi “Padre Nostro, che sei nei cieli”, poi si ripeteva tutti. E l’Ave Maria.
ZG: Ehm, quando poi finiva l’allarme, come lo sapevate che era finito l’allarme?
SC: Perché suonava, suonava il cessate allarme. Suonava e allora ci guardavamo tutti in faccia, ci abbracciavamo noi bambini e i più grandi e poi ‘ciao ciao’ e si tornava a casa, perché magari durava un’ora, un’ora e mezza, e anche due. Di giorno era un conto ma di notte era un altro.
ZG: Lei si ricorda cosa è che la sconvolgeva di più quando eravate in cantina? Qual’era il ricordo più forte che ha?
SC: Il pensiero che andasse giù una bomba dove c’era la mia casa. Come quei terremotati che sono là adesso là, che hanno sempre il pensiero di dire ‘la casa non c’è più, cosa facciamo‘. Lì è proprio una guerra anche lì eh.
ZG: E invece sulla strada per casa come tornava? Lei era sempre con i suoi genitori?
SC: Sì sì tutti e cinque si andava là quando suonava l’allarme. Di giorno no perché il papà era all’ippodromo. E se capitava di giorno andavo io con i miei fratelli e la mamma. Ma la maggior parte era di notte.
ZG: Lei per caso aveva parenti che combattevano al fronte?
SC: Nella seconda, non nella terza. Che sono morti, che c’è qui la scuola di Trenno ci sono due aule con il nome dei fratelli del papà, Colombo e Colombo, che sono morti nella seconda guerra mondiale.
ZG: E dove sono morti, lei lo sa?
SC: Non lo so, non lo so perché io è già un dispiacere il papà quando gli hanno dato il nome alle due aule io andavo a scuola lì dopo. Però lui non mi ha mai detto niente e io non chiedevo niente.
ZG: Invece ha, per caso aveva parenti che invece lavoravano nell’industria bellica?
SC: No, avevo parenti che sono andati coi tedeschi. Una zia e una cugina.
ZG: Le va di…
SC: Mamma e figlia. Con due tedeschi.
ZG: Ma che sono andati a vivere proprio in Germania?
SC: No, che sono andati lì in casa sua, in via Lampugnano al 170 la sera. Andavano lì e la figlia è rimasta gravida, il figlio che è nato era proprio un tedesco, non era figlio di un mio cugino marito di lei.
ZG: Come, che ricordo ha dei tedeschi durante l’occupazione?
SC: Paura. Loro quando erano venuti qui alla scuola, venuti qui alla scuola che passavano allora alla via Lampugnano c’erano giù i sassi e con i due, le beole che dicevano i trottatori, ecco. Prima di tutto non c’erano luci perché c’era un lampione qui in, la piazza dicevano la piazza dove c’è adesso il semaforo. C’era un lampione lì, poi ce n’era uno là vicino alla scuola, può immaginarsela la strada tutta buia. Ma quando passavano i tedeschi con quelli scarponi lì. Io avevo la finestra proprio sulla, la camera sulla via Lampugnano e facevano rimbombare anche i vetri, perché allora i doppi vetri non c’erano. Che passavano e cantavano e con quelli stivaloni lì facevano una paura enorme guardi. Io li guardavo dalla finestra, guardavo giù ma avevo una paura, avevo quattordic’anni, quindici eh.
ZG: Lei non ha avuto nessun episodio in cui le è capitato di avere a che fare con i tedeschi?
SC: No no.
ZG: Quando la guerra è finita, si ricorda il giorno della liberazione?
SC: 25 aprile, il 26 hanno ammazzato questi qui.
ZG: Ma si ricorda di come le è arrivata la notizia che la guerra è finite?
SC: Sempre lì dallo zio, che aveva la radio perché in casa mia fino a diciott’anni non c’era né radio né giornale. Leggevo il giornale perché me lo passava mio zio che lo comperava lui, se no... Ecco dopo mi ricordo che eravamo in quattro cinque amiche e in via Novara, adesso non ricordo quella via lì, dove c’è la posta che va giù, quella via lì non mi ricordo, che si va giù in fondo c’è la caserma, c’è la caserma e lì c’erano gli americani. Allora quelli più grandi sono venuti a casa e l’hann detto che noi eravamo là all’oratorio, era domenica si andava all’oratorio, si andava in chiesa il pomeriggio poi si andava all’oratorio dalle suore, e son venuti a casa e c’hann detto ’andate lì, andate lì che gli Americani sono là alla finestra, se vedono le bambine’. Allora io avevo quindic’anni, sedic’anni, ’se vedono le bambine o le ragazze, buttano giù le tavolette di cioccolata’. Allora si andava a piedi fino a là e c’hann buttato giù le belle tavolette di cioccolata ma bisognava tagliarlo col coltello talmente era alto era buonissimo. Ecco il ricordo degli americani al confronto con i tedeschi.
ZG: Prima ha detto che suo marito da ragazzo era stato partigiano.
SC: Sì, era partigiano, era amico con questi. Dopo quando i fascisti, lui non so se l’ha sentito tramite qualcun’altro, i fascisti gli hann detto ’andate in via Novara perché arriva una colonna di partigiani vi danno qualche sacco di roba da mangiare’. Sono stati i fascisti a dirglielo. Loro sono andati ma quando sono stati lì in via Bellaria all’altezza qui dove c’è la lapide che l’ho fotografata ieri mia figlia quando m’ha portato a casa, e dopo io ho scritto tutto quello che c’era scritto e c’era la lapide lì e lì c’era un fossettino perché erano tutti campi prima, c’era un fossettino che passava l’acqua, li hann fatti sdraiare lì e li hanno uccisi loro, fascisti di Trenno. Ma mio marito non è andato e si era nascosto in un solaio ed un altro suo amico in via Luigi Ratti, s’era nascosto lì nel solaio, è rimasto lì per due giorni che li portava su da mangiare il suo amico perché aveva paura che i fascisti magari lo vedessero in giro e …
ZG: E si ricorda che cosa faceva come partigiano suo marito prima della, durante la guerra?
SC: No, no, perché [unclear].
ZG: È un argomento di cui non avete mai parlato?
SC: No, no, perché poi lui è andato a studiare in seminario perché il papà aveva un tumore alla faccia, aveva un tumore alla faccia e la mamma faceva la magliaia e sua so, le è morto un fratello a diciotto anni del tifo ma quello non c’entra niente e lui voleva andare avanti a fare il liceo ma la mamma gli ha detto io non posso, non posso perché … allora lui per poter avere il diploma lì del liceo è andato in seminario a studiare. Ha parlato, la mamma ha parlato coi missionari, è andato là è Madonna non ricordo il nome, è vicino a Monza, è venuto a casa che aveva il liceo ecco però non eravamo ancora fidanzati e sapevo solo quello.
ZG: Le ragazze di cui ci parlava prima, che erano andate coi tedeschi, dopo la liberazione cosa le è successo, lo sa?
SC: No. È successo che l’ha saputo tutto il paese. Una era mia zia eh, che non era una ragazza, e l’altra era mia cugina sua figlia, che si era appena sposata è rimasta incinta ma quando è nato il figlio, per non dire che non è stato il marito perché non era giusto, che mancavano più di, quasi tre mesi, hanno detto che era un settimino, per non dire di sei mesi. Che poi il figlio era proprio un tedesco. Tedesco di nome no, ma di fatti. Ma di fatti.
ZG: In generale, qual’è il ricordo più forte che ha della guerra, quello che le è rimasto più impresso?
SC: Quando ho fatto la via Novara che ho visto quelle tre persone con tutte le, le cose fuori dalla testa. Le cervella, che sembrava la cervella che si prende dal macellaio per impanare e mangiarla. Ecco, l’impressione più brutta era quella [pauses] che mi è rimasta, perché qui in pratica qui a Trenno non è successo niente all’infuori di questo che dopo siamo venuti a conoscenza e odiavamo quei ragazzi lì. Che fra l’altro il fascista di questi adesso c’è l’Ambrogio Giroli era suo zio.
ZG: Torniamo di nuovo ai bombardamenti. Cosa, cosa le dicevano di chi bombardava?
SC: Eh, che erano i tedeschi. Dopo a volte dicevano che erano gli americani, invece erano i tedeschi. E poi mi ricordo, mi spiace che non la trovo più perché quando hanno ucciso il Duce in Piazzale Loreto con la Petacci, io avevo la fotografia che è andato mio marito a fargliela. E avevo una cartolina. Non la trovo più, non la trovo più, non la trovo più, l’ho cercata apposta per farvela vedere a voi.
ZG: È una foto che le ha fatto…
SC: Che le fatto mio marito in Piazzale Loreto col Duce appeso in Piazzale Loreto e la Petacci e altri due.
ZG: Cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, lei?
SC: Cosa pensavo. Che erano dei disgraziati. Ma disgraziato più è stato il Duce che ha fatto il patto con Hitler, eh. Però essendo una bambina non avevo radio, non leggevo giornali.
ZG: Degli inglesi invece cosa pensava?
SC: Io non so perché, io ho pensato solo agli americani. Degli inglesi non pensavo niente.
ZG: E degli americani?
SC: E degli americani pensavo bene, perché sono venuti a liberarci, eh. Che quando sono arrivati gli americani la prima volta che gli abbiamo visti sono arrivati lì con quelle jeep, non so io cos’erano, in fondo a via Lampugnano che adesso c’è il Palatrussardi ecco, siamo andati fino a là per vederli. Perché si erano fermati là e noi da qui a Trenno, noi ragazze, che avevamo quindici anni, sedici, siamo andati, chi diciassette, chi diciotto.
ZG: Ci hanno raccontato di un episodio di un bombardamento alla Cascina Bellaria.
SC: Bravo.
ZG: Lei se lo ricorda?
SC: Bravo, sì, bravo.
ZG: Si ricorda l’episodio?
SC: Sì non mi ricordo ma so che è andata giù una bomba lì alla Cascina Bellaria, ma allora era tutto prato lì. Il parco lì proprio c’era solo la cascina e basta.
ZG: Per caso si ricorda l’anno?
SC: No.
ZG: Invece ha mai sentito parlare del Pippo?
SC: Pippo? Cos’è il Pippo?
ZG: Un modo di dire in alcune parti di Milano in cui si parlava di un aereo che volava, un solo aereo che volava di giorno e di notte sopra la città.
SC: Mai sentito.
ZG: Senta, invece adesso che cosa pensa di chi la bombardava?
SC: Eh, cosa penso. Che erano dei maledetti, che cosa si pensa? Che cosa si può pensare? Io devo dirmi fortunata perché dei miei parenti nessuno è stato, è stato preso, diciamo, nei bombardamenti o, però la paura che c’era…
ZG: Invece, finita la guerra, la vita com’è cambiata lei e la sua famiglia?
SC: Eh un po’ diversa perché ho cominciato a lavorare, facevo rammendi, mi ricordo che il primo rammendo che ho fatto qui a Trenno, un buco di sigaretta in una giacca e ho preso cento euro [sic]. Un buco di sigaretta e ho preso cento euro [sic]. Allora, perché allora facevano anche rivoltare le giacche. Chi faceva l’impiegato consumava tutta la, il bordo qui della giacca e allora me lo portavano qui e io lo rammendavo. C’era il trucco. Si faceva così, ecco, e mi ricordo che ho cominciato a star bene lì. E mi ricordo che avevo diciotto anni e ho preso le prime calze di nylon, se no c’erano i calzettoni di cotone fino al ginocchio. Le prime scarpe che ho preso avevo il 35, mio papà mi ha preso il 38 perché ha detto che dovevano durare tre o quattro anni, che il piede si allungava. Quando non ci è stato più dentro il piede, li ha portati da un calzolaio qui a Trenno che era anche un cugino, Colzani, m’ha tagliato il tallone e ha lasciato il cinturino per fare i sandali, però metà tallone era giù fuori dal tacco delle scarpe. E dopo ho dovuto metterle via, pulirle bene per mia sorella. E al tempo di guerra, a Natale, ci si alzava sul tavolo là in cucina c’era per me e mia sorella perché allora mio fratello era ancora piccolino, un mandarino, un torroncino Sperlari nella scatoletta di cartone che era più bella la scatoletta che il torrone che c’era dentro, cinque spagnolette, torroncino, cinque spagnolette, il mandarino e una bambolina di pezza che ha fatto mia mamma, che dovevo tenerla in mano a Natale, Santo Stefano, poi metterla via per mia sorella. Quello era il Natale, in tempo di guerra. E il panettone, tagliava il panettone di mezzo chilo perché quello da un chilo non si poteva prendere, mezzo chilo lo tagliava, lo tagliava tre quarti, un quarto lo metteva via per febbraio, San Biagio come tradizione.
ZG: Bene. Per noi siamo a posto così
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Santina Colombo
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Zeno Gaiaschi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:35:13 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04-26
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Santina Colombo describes her early life in a family of farmers, her father a fervent socialist. She mentions the start of the war announced on the radio and gives a detailed account of civilian life in wartime Milan: scarce food, growing vegetables on small plots, home rearing of geese, and the constant fear for the fate of enlisted relatives. Describes bombings and the rush for safety in a nearby basement, men and women praying together during the alarm, and hugging each other after the all-clear signal. Recalls the constant fear that her home would be destroyed and the trauma of seeing corpses on the road. Mentions the Cascina Bellaria killing and describes how her husband, a partisan, narrowly escaped death. Describes fascist violence, leading to acts of revenge after the war. Mentions her aunt and cousin living with the Germans, the latter to become pregnant. Speaks of aircrew as odious and detestable, and scorns on Mussolini and Hitler.
Identifier
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AColomboS161203, PColomboS1602
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/PHarrisB1604.1.jpg
4d93a86a74881c8fecbe08584fd4d043
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/AHarrisB160626.1.mp3
b2fdeeb3d2a420c4b51393c6b2ae8f14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Bernard
Bernie Harris
B Harris
Barnard Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Bernard 'Bernie' Harris (b 1925 - 2017, 1863168 Royal Air Force) an air gunner who served at the end of the war on 622 Squadron flying Lancaster on Operation Manna. In addition a photograph of four trainees.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bernie Harris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
2016-06-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harris, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Ok, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever
BH: That’s a quick day, yeah [laughs]
TO: Whatever the case may be.
BH: Yeah.
TO: We’re recording, we’re filming this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The gentleman I’m, that I’m interviewing is Mr. Bernie Harris. My name is Tomas Ozel and we are recording this interview on the 26th of June 2016. Could you please tell me what year you were born in?
BH: What?
TO: What year were you born?
BH: 1925.
TO: And were you interested in aircraft as a child? Were you interested in aircraft as a child?
BH: Oh yes, yeah. Yeah, my father was in Royal Flying Corps, he passed it on. But always interested in aircraft, anyway.
TO: Did you collect model planes?
BH: Yeah. Spitfires, Defiants, Lancasters, yeah. Defiant were made with Balsa wood. These days they are more sophisticated but it was made with Balsa wood and coverings. They even put a little turret on top of the Defiant as it was then fighter aircraft with a turret for night fighters.
TO: And did your father ever talk about his experience in the Flying Corps? Did your father ever tell you about his time in the Flying Corps?
BH: Not very often, no. He kept it, like most air crews today I think. He didn’t talk about it much. Nor do air crew today, it’s only in the recent years where there’s not many of us left now become more interested but it’s taken 60, 70 years to recognize Bomber Command in the RAF.
TO: And what was your first job?
BH: My first job was to be apprenticed to tool making and I lived in Forest Gate in East London and I was apprentice to an engineering company in Islington and I was apprenticed to become a tool maker. But after six months, on a drill, right, I thought I was been taken advantage of, so I left and went off somewhere else and took a couple jobs [unclear] and finally I volunteered at sixteen and a half. In a nearby recruiting place, which is still there, Romford in Essex and in between I had a job in a shop one thing and the other. My father was a tailor and he wanted to teach me and he said, right, you start right from the bottom and you sweep the floor, and I said, ‘no, I don’t’, and that was the end of that [laughs] ‘Til finally I got myself in a job in a shop, which wasn’t bad, it was a tailor’s shop, actually, and I said, I volunteered with sixteen and a half and eventually, father had to sign for me really, I can still remember, father sitting at a table with a form in front of him, my mother leaning over his shoulder saying you’re not going to sign that are you? And he said, ‘if he wants to go, he goes’ and he signed and that was that. And then from on I went to Carding, Cardington [unclear] a test station you probably know about, and if you passed that in three days you were good and you came out there and you were graded PNB, pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and just waited for the call. And it was just before my eighteenth birthday that I got the call and that was that. I was in.
TO: Do you remember what medical tests they gave you?
BH: A1.
TO: And do you remember the things that they tested?
BH: The what test?
TO: The thing that they tested like your eyesight
BH: Oh yeah, everything. If you came out of there Cardington you knew that you were sane and you knew you were a hundred percent fit. No problem. 20/20 vision, hearing, everything, you were, I mean aircrew were the fittest of the lot I think. Examinations of course not only medical, physical, eyesight, hearing, mathematics, it was a three-day course with, when it was completed you got the badge RAFVR and that was that.
TO: And in the 1930s did you hear about Hitler’s aggression in Europe?
BH: In the 1930s I was aware of fascism in this country, I was eleven and also the Spanish civil war, I remember the placards with planes, with swastikas on them dropping bombs and flames in their placards. I’m Jewish, my, and even then I thought, you know, things are not so good. I knew what was going on in Germany through the [unclear] and but not to the extent about concentration camps or anything like that but I was aware of Moseley and his mob, saw them marching, you know, one thing and the other and also the Brady Street march in which he was stopped, yeah, I was aware. And all the more reason to get in the fight.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain? What do you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
BH: What?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain and his plan of appeasing Hitler?
BH: I don’t know really. But can you say that again?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain when he signed the Munich Agreement with Hitler?
BH: Oh Chamberlain?
TO: Yeah.
BH: Well, I wasn’t politically motivated at that age but it, I mean, from listening to the parents and other people they thought, maybe he’s avoided a war, but as it turned out he didn’t, so. So, my opinion of him was neutral. Well, I wasn’t politically aware. As it turned out, he was wrong.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for the war?
BH: Ah yeah, very well because I was fourteen and I’d left school but I got, I had, I’ve two sisters and a brother, who are younger than me, and my mother for some reason said, ‘stop work, I’m getting you evacuated’. And we were all evacuated to Chelmsford and guess what? Right next to the Marconi radio factory right, prime spot, yeah, I remember the guys being, territorial was being called up, preparations for the black out, the first air raid siren and I remember that vividly, yeah, I suppose it was more of a thrill than anything else, [unclear] something different, right? Yeah, I remember that vividly, but it wasn’t long before I got the bus and came back home, used to be an eastern national bus, used to go from Bow to Chelmsford and from Chelmsford back to Bow, I lived in Forest Gate was on the route so that was that back home. Eventually my mother took my young, my younger brother, sister, and two sisters to Wells, she evacuated to them there. And I was left at home with my father.
TO: Were you surprised when the war started?
BH: No, not really. I did read, at that age I read newspapers and I wasn’t surprised, I don’t think I was even fearful in that sense. More of an adventure, I think.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war started?
BH: September the 3rd, 1939. No, I don’t actually remember what I was doing then but I remember the first day of the Blitz, the day Blitz vividly because my brother and I, we went to the local cinema called the Coronation in Manor Park and they were showing Gone with the Wind. And during the course, that the raid started and all the lights went up, they said, ‘you all [unclear] to leave if you want but you can go back, if you want to stay, go back under the balcony which is safer’ so we decided to do that. When we came out there was rubble everywhere and in the distance was my father saying where you two so-and-so’s have been, we’ve been looking for you. And I remember that was the first day of the Blitz. But September the 3rd, I can’t really remember was it, I think was a nondescript day.
TO: Do you remember Chamberlain’s speech?
BH: Yeah, ‘cause there was no television in those days. There was television, but only for the few that could afford it. But as soon as war had broke out the television stopped, anyway, yeah, peace in our time. There is a little piece of this, and a little piece of that, and I’ll have the whole lot.
TO: And you remember the speech where Chamberlain announced that we’d declared war?
BH: Yeah, that was on the radio, there was sort of quietness everywhere, everything seemed to have gone quiet.
TO: Did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
BH: Yeah, I’d two cousins. Actually he was, the first into Paris with De Gaulle and another one, he was a Spitfire pilot and finished up ferrying aircraft. My brother went in as a boy, because he’s two years younger than me, he is dead now unfortunately and he was no higher than this and because I went in he went and volunteered as a boy and he also volunteered down at Romford, anyway he went off, my father realised what he’d done, chased after him, when he got to Romford he asked what, oh, your son has just gone to Romford Station and he’s off to Abedon, Aberothy something or it’ll come to me in a minute and the tale is that he got to Waterloo and he said, went up to a military policeman and said, ‘we are so sorry’, he said, ‘why have you joined his Majesty’s service?’ He said, ‘yes’, he said, ‘well, come with me so’. And that was that, so my brother was in the service as well but he wasn’t involved in the war, he was a boy entry and that was that.
TO: Did they allow boys then? Did they allow boys in in certain roles?
BH: Yes, he was trained in [Reemey ?] and what killed him off was that he was finished up after the war, going to the hospitals repairing x-ray sets, and they didn’t do him any good at all. They didn’t have the facilities to have the protection in those days as they have now, so that unfortunately killed him.
TO: And did you have an air raid shelter at your house?
BH: Yeah, Anderson, the Anderson in the garden. There was a nightly call.
TO: [unclear] camera back so.
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, just checking the shutter. Yeah, it’s fine. Sorry about that. And did you consider joining the army at all?
BH: I did the air force.
TO: What appealed to you about the air force over the other services?
BH: Well, you go to the air force, you can fly. And then again, in those days, it was the only force that get in touch with the enemy. Especially after Dunkirk.
TO: And how did you feel when you heard about the Dunkirk evacuation?
BH: Pardon what?
TO: The Dunkirk evacuation. How did you feel when it happened?
BH: I can’t really explain really. It’s, it’s a mixture of excitement, in one thing or the other, and getting away from the humdrum.
TO: And were you ever worried that Germany would win?
BH: Never doubted it. Never doubted it.
TO: Can you tell me a bit about what you remember from the phoney war?
BH: The phoney war? Well, the phoney war was [emphasis] phoney. Everything was quiet, everybody going on their normal business. The only difference was the blackout. But, no, everybody went about their normal business. The phoney war stopped of course with the episode of Dunkirk and then the day bombing and then into night bombing by the Nazis, but the phoney war was phoney. Everybody went about their normal business.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have when the war, what kind of rations did you have when the war started?
BH: I really don’t know in a sense because I wasn’t politicised in any sense, I knew we had to fight Germany and I wasn’t really fearful or anything like that at all. My parents were worried ‘cause they knew what could happen that’s why I suppose being a bit thick it didn’t worry me but I mean fourteen year old what do you know? Yeah, but I know the phoney war and it was phoney, as I say, until after Dunkirk.
TO: And there were people, were your parents worried that Hitler would invade? Were you worried that Hitler would invade?
BH: I wasn’t worried, wasn’t worried at all, but I knew if they did and I knew their reputation as far as Jewish people concerned, right, where could you go? Into the hills, Wales, Scotland or anywhere like that? ‘Cause there was nowhere else to go. So we were in it, and fight. That’s it.
TO: And do you remember what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: What kind of what?
TO: Food you had, what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: Food?
TO: Yes.
BH: Well, my mother was the innovative and it was mostly vegetable stuff and little bits of chicken, ration meat and things like that, but she probably went without herself, lots of vegetable soups, vegetables, home grown vegetables, she kept chickens for eggs and even when we had visitors she found something, you know, to make a meal with, so nothing elaborate, I mean, cakes, we had home-made cakes, chocolate was, couldn’t get hold of chocolate, things like that. Meat of course was rationed and the ration books, [unclear] but she made do, like most women and housewives in those days they made do. Comes the occasion, comes the person.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
BH: Brilliant, could do with him again. I wish he would be reincarnated. Man of the moment. Didn’t think much of him after the war, he’d become a real Tory after the war but then again after the war there’s a great movement for Labour. People have had enough, I mean, people were returning from the forces so right, we’re not lackeys anymore, might be on better things. So, his speech as far as communism is concerned killed him politically but as a war leader second to none.
TO: Did you listen to his speeches much?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: What in particular did you like about him as a war leader? What, what, what in particular did you like about him as a war leader?
BH: He hated Germans.
TO: You already told me about the first day of the Blitz. Do you remember, are there any other days of the Blitz that stand out to you particularly?
BH: Yes, as I explained, the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Yeah, yeah.
BH: We were in the cinema, me and my brother. And when we came out, there was rubble all over the place, houses had been knocked down, something, so that was the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Do you remember other days of the Blitz?
BH: No, we just took it in our stride, went to work as normal. We used to get on the tram at seven o’clock in the morning to get to this so-called apprenticeship by eight o’clock. I was fourteen, I was working five and a half days a week, guess how much for?
TO: I don’t know.
BH: In out of thirty seven and a half p a week. I can remember my first wage packet bringing it home, and my mother pinned it on the curtain, it was [file missing] six pence for five and a half days work. No allowances for my age, so thirty seven and half p in today’s terms.
TO: How did the people behave during the Blitz would you say?
BH: All as one, helped one another, didn’t see any general fear whatsoever, I mean the patriotism was great. People helped one another. I remember when the night bombing started at five o’clock every day, people used to pack up stuff and we used to go to a communal bomb shelter, just across where we used to live and then eventually we want back to the Anderson but the first, pack up, be there by five o’clock, come out by six o’clock next morning amongst the rubble, hopefully your house was still intact.
TO: Did you ever see anyone behave badly during the Blitz?
BH: No, no, no, not at all.
TO: Was there a lot of bomb damage near where you lived?
BH: Yes, because the Forest Gate is not far from the docks and the first day of the Blitz was the whole dock area because the pool of London was the great entry into Great Britain, England and all the shipping used to go in there anyway. Most of the bombing in the surrounding areas but when they started bombing civilians that was another matter.
TO: And did you ever watch any of the dogfights that were going on, did ever you watch any of the dogfights that were going on?
BH: Yes we used to watch them coming over because we, actually we knew when raids were about because the balloons used to go off and they stationed all around us, there is a place called Wanstead Flats not far behind us where ack-ack guns were on and the, the balloons used to go up, to deter low flying, but the whole mixture of things really but I remember when, they brought in, like rocket fire, the ack-ack and everybody cheered because it used to be a one-off shell [mocks the sounds of gunfire] and then they brought in these, like rockets with massive, right, and everybody stood and cheered, at last we’re doing something, rather than the old pop-pop.
TO: Could you hear the anti-aircraft guns firing?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah. In Forest Gate as I say about two miles behind us an area called Wanstead Flats which is part of the Green Belt and the ack-ack were on there.
TO: Did it, did it feel encouraging to know that the German bombers were being fired at?
BH: Oh, absolutely, yeah. But don’t forget the Luftwaffe was really indiscriminate, I mean, even today you know, people say about Dresden, but what about Coventry, Rotterdam, every city in the UK, Bristol, Plymouth, London, they didn’t care.
TO: And do you think France let Britain down in the war? Do you think France let Britain down?
BH: Well the trouble with France, they had the Maginot Line, didn’t they, and it was facing the wrong way, so that was a big mistake. Vichy France of course was fascist, so, as an ally, mediocre but not impressed with them.
TO: And so, when exactly, what year of the war did you join the RAF?
BH: 1943. I went in April 1943, just before my eighteenth birthday.
TO: And how did you come to be a rear gunner?
BH: Ah, as I said, I went in Cardington and came out as PNB graded, so, I, when I went, was called to ITW, Initial Training Wing, which was in Newquay and that’s a three month’s course which in peacetime is three years, so it’s condensed from three years, I did there for three months and from there I was sent to Elementary Flying Training School in Derby, which [unclear] factories on it now in a place called Burnaston. Unfortunately I had a Tiger Moth I was as others on Tiger Moths for a while and the weather was so bad I couldn’t get my flying hours in so to go solo but they didn’t determine the fact that so from there we were sent to Heaton Park. Now Heaton Park was a holding centre for aircrew to go to the Empire, you’ve heard about this, to the Empire Training Scheme and ‘cause it was near the Manchester ship canal as well. So we were stuck there for a while and we waited and waited and three of us went to the CO and said, ‘you know, what’s the problem?’ In a nice way. We said ‘there’s a hold up and we don’t know when you’ll be going’ so we said ‘what’s the quickest way getting to the war?’ He said, ‘go as gunners’, so we did. Others went, sent, who decided to remuster in the navy and that’s how I’ve become a gunner. So you become a rear gunner is because when you go to OTU, Operational Training Wing, which was Hixon, a place called Hixon in Staffordshire, which is on Wellingtons, then you crew up together and then you all meet up, either Australian pilots, Pete and we all met up and the other guy, there was the other gunner, he said, ‘I don’t want to be a rear gunner’, so I said ‘Okay, I’ll do it, it’s fine’, that was it.
TO: And could you have been a pilot? Could you have become a pilot?
BH: I could’ve, well if I’d stayed on, I’d have become a pilot, I’ve gone overseas but I’d have missed the war. As another guy did say, I met him later on, but he got his wings but he missed the war. That wasn’t the purpose, the purpose was to go and kill Germans.
TO: And so what was the first bomber that you flew in on as a rear gunner?
BH: Well there again, we were, as a crew, we go to, from Wellingtons, we’re six of us, go to a heavy conversion unit onto Lancasters, which is a place called Woolfox Lodge between Stamford and Grantham and you pick up a flight engineer. And the flight engineer, he’d got his wings but they didn’t want him as a pilot so they made them flight engineers. And then we, with various things of getting to know your Lancaster and one thing and the other, we didn’t get to the squadron till late which was in Mildenhall and then we was, we were sent on to various things, they put us on some secretive work and even in OTU the other guys would tell you we used to go out on Window dropping, a diversion raids, save the main forces going that way, we would go that way to get the Luftwaffe up in the air of the pundits, drop the Window, metal strips, as if the big force come, then come back and the other force would go through. So [unclear] they put us on secret [unclear] and testing one thing and the other, finally got onto Operation Manna. So that was my only operational, real operational side. Which was disappointing in a way. But we had to obey orders, didn’t we?
TO: And did you ever wish that you were anything other than a gunner?
BH: Well, as I say, I went as a gunner because I wanted to get in the war but my aim was become a pilot or navigator or bomb aimer, the PNB, that was my aim. But as circumstances would show, as I said, I missed the war, probably gone to Australia, to Canada, Texas or South Africa. But as it happens, when the war ended, we were earmarked to go to California as a crew to convert onto Liberators for the Far East but the [unclear] said, no we want the boys to go home. So the whole crew was split up and that was in August 1945.
TO: And what did your relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
BH: Oh, quite proud in a way. My mother was concerned ‘cause I remember going home with all my kit ‘cause we’d be going from one station to another and she spotted my helmet, oxygen mask to the top so she had a little cry but they were concerned, rightly so, I suppose really.
TO: And how did you feel when you first heard that the RAF had started bombing Germany?
BH: Elated. Couldn’t get in there quick enough to help them do it.
TO: How long did your training last in total?
BH: Our training, well the training started right from 1943 right through to ‘45. I think I joined the 62 Squadron in March ’45 as I said, they sent us on various things and one thing and the other.
TO: And were you on board Lancaster bombers?
BH: Yes.
TO: What were the conditions like on board the Lancaster?
BH: Better than the Wellington, actually I flew Tiger Moths, Harfords, Wellingtons, Lancaster and of course, yeah, the Tiger Moth, which is the nicest plane I’ve ever been in, or ever flew in. There there was if you were coming down the landing, the instructor used to say, watch the grass is grass then cut back [unclear] head over the side watching, but that was flying, that’s different, that only got you into next grade but it wasn’t pleasant especially when you were flying at height when icicles were forming on your oxygen mask, you had to break them off, we had the heating closing as well.
TO: Was it colder in the gun positions than in the main cockpit?
BH: Very tight, conditions were very, in the turret, the rear turret, cramped, very cramped, but then, you know, you’re in it, you’re in it, and that was it.
TO: Did you feel glad when you started going on missions over Germany?
BH: I didn’t really go on missions over Germany. They got us on all the experimental and secret stuff and then finally got onto Operation Manna, which we dropped food, have you heard of it? Obviously, so no need to go into that.
TO: Well, No, actually, if you can explain it but.
BH: We dropped, it’s three hundred feet, the old German airfield Epinburgh and after that we formed the Manna Association. Which I eventually finished up as secretary and treasurer. Now of about forty, forty five of us, is six left now.
TO: And, did you ever, did you have to fire the guns in training?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. And tested the guns coming over to Holland over the North Sea, test them just in case but yeah, we had to fire drogues. In fact when I was, when the war was over I was sent to Italy and I joined the Centododici Squadron, this is 112, Sharks Squadron, they had sharks under the cowling and I used to fly with the air craft towing a drogue so they could fire at it, hoping that they would fire at the drogue and not at me, so, so that was alright but a bit of fun, but can I tell you an interesting story though? In 1945 the squadron was broken down, broken up and everybody went their different ways and were all made redundant and that was in ’45. So 36 years later this guy turned out to be a great friend with it, is Ted Livingstone and another guy, Phil Irvin, decided to put an advert in all, like the fly, all the journals for aircrew who would be interested in going to see the dropping sites in Holland? It cost a hundred pounds and get the coach from Graves End. So I said to my wife at the time, would you like to do it? Yeah. So, put my name down for it. Now I had my own business in those days and I’d been to an exhibition and I got home rather late, my wife said to me, you had a phone call, I think it’s the guy that’s organizing the trip to Holland. So I said, yeah, what’s his name? She said, Hallem. I said, Arthur Hallem? My own navigator. Anyway left his phone call and of course got on to him, chatted and he was going, right, with his wife. And we chatted, and during the course of the conversation, I said, he was articled clerk, I said, did you carry on with your accountancy? He did, yes, I am now the director of Wickbrits pension fund and I said, in Chiswell Street? And when I said in Chiswell Street, my wife said, Arthur Hallem? I’ve been dealing with him for years in the Abbey National round the corner in City Road what do you think of that?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Pardon?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Yeah. ‘Cause your shells used to drop off the side, you spew out anyway. But also in the training for gunnery you had to put a gun together blindfolded. I don’t know if any of the guys have told you that, yeah, during the training, you had to be blindfolded and then put the guns together, in case you had a stoppage or something like that while you’re out flying so it’s dark, it’s black, can’t put a light on, so you had to do in the darkness, take the bridgehead out, clear it, put it back in.
TO: Do you think it was hard to learn that?
BH: To be honest no and I’m not being snobbish in any way when a few of us came from our previous training, the guys up in Morpeth it was, the instructors had a bet that we [unclear] we would beat everybody and we did. Not because it’s snobbish or anything but we knew our way around so as I said [unclear] I’m not degrading the other guys in any way whatsoever but anyway they had a bet and they won.
TO: And what was your, I think I’ve already asked you this but what was your, was the Tiger Moth your favourite aircraft to fly in? What was your favourite aircraft to fly in?
BH: Tiger Moth, oh yeah.
TO: And were there any planes you flew in that were, that weren’t very reliable?
BH: There was what?
TO: Were all the planes that you flew in reliable?
BH: Yeah, expect the Wellington. ‘Cause Wellington was, the OTU operational training unit and we used to have in it Gee for navigation and I used to pop out and help the navigator, Arthur used to, I used to do the Gee and everything else, and we lost the Gee, and we got lost and we were in cloud and the aircraft started to vibrate violently so we had a discussion whether we should pop out or not, ‘cause we didn’t know where we were, anyway decided to leave and when we got back to base we went to the hangar, the chief engineer said, said to us, you had one minute before the port engine blew up. So we were rather lucky. So the whole aircraft was vibrating.
TO: So, did you have to bale out then?
BH: No, we did considered it but we didn’t know where we were, so we are sticking out, so eventually the weather cleared and we got down and it was a place called Gamston,’cause we’ve been moved there from Hixon and the chief engineer when we went to the hangar the next morning to see what’s the problem he said you had one minute before that engine blew up, in his opinion. So we considered it a lucky escape.
TO: Did Wellington engines have a reputation for doing that?
BH: Yeah, they were Bristol radials but as a [file missing] Merlin [unclear] different proposition altogether but of all end like anybody else the Lancaster was the favourite aircraft.
TO: Were the guns different on as Lancaster to another aircraft?
BH: No, 303s, the mid upper had two guns, is it alright?
TO: Yes
BH: The mid upper had two guns, as you know, the rear turret had four, later in they brought in 2.5s because the 303 only had a range. And the Luftwaffe knew it, if they stood off, right, the 303 were going then would start dropping, didn’t have the range until they bought the .5 which the Americans had, which was a different thing altogether and that’s why they introduced corkscrew, have you heard about the corkscrew? Yeah, that was violent.
TO: Did you have to practice the corkscrew?
BH: Yeah. That’s one of the things that we had to do on 622, they brought us in a new sight, gun sight, and it was like a square like that oblong, and there would be crystals and you had to recognize the aircraft like Messerschmitt and you set that in and if you got the aircraft in those crystals you couldn’t miss so we had to do an exercise with a mark 8 Spitfire and he did his attack and I got a hundred percent hits by then. My mid upper he didn’t want to do it so I did his and he got ninety-nine percent and the whole thing went to Air Ministry but we also did a corkscrew now a corkscrew, I don’t know if they told, how we get into it and why, I mean you just, an attacking aircraft who lay off you and he put your speed in and if he is on the starboard side which is [pause] to the right of the aircraft, right, so we called our pilot Pete, the corkscrew starboard so he’s got his wheel like that ready and as the aircraft comes in, he’s got to come in like that, and he’s got to come under the back he said, corkscrew go and he goes [mimics the noise of incoming aircraft] down like that and up again and then down again and his stomach comes up here, goes down there, good fun really.
TO: Was anyone aboard the plane actually sick, by those manoeuvres?
BH: No. Fortunately.
TO: And do you think the guns of a Lancaster would have been enough to take down a fighter?
BH: Oh yeah, if they got in range, as I say, the 303, as the other guys will tell you, the only, limited in range, they would drop down and the Luftwaffe knew that.
TO: And were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: I don’t think so but towards the end of the war they did have intruders. I don’t know if you were told about that. The Focke Wulf 190 used to follow aircraft back and as soon as you got in landing position, what they called funnel, there you’re lined up, your undercarriage is down, your flaps are down and you are more air worthy, you’re more or less, your air speed is down and it happened to where I was in Woolfox Lodge one of guys got shot down because they used to come in, follow the aircraft and while you’re in that position they were vulnerable and shoot them down. In fact to this day they haven’t found the air gunner, the rear gunner, so we used to get the signal to be sent out over the North Sea, Irish Sea, all clear but then that was towards the end of the war and it claimed quite a few victims, so.
TO: As a, sorry, as a rear gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position? As a gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position?
BH: Yes. Because I explain the line of attack would be, they would lay off, turn in and come round like that and then
TO: Come.
BH: Come to the rear so the rear gunner was really the first form of defence and the first to receive attack. As soon as they introduced these Dorniers with guns they called firing from underneath, I don’t know if you were told about that, right, they had these Dorniers and they were equipped with a gun who used to get under the aircraft and fire upwards, couldn’t see them until you exploded.
TO: And what kind of bombs would a Lancaster carry?
BH: Oh, the big ones. Yeah, sit [?] incendiaries, thousand pounders. And also the big one. It takes up the whole of the bomb bay.
TO: And what did you think of RAF leaders, like Arthur Harris?
BH: If anybody started on me outside, I’ll tell my uncle of you. But he’s brilliant and he liked his aircrew. He went to South Africa because he was contemptuous of the government for not demobbing the aircrew, made us all redundant. And that’s a story in itself, stupid. As I say, when the squadron broke up, we made redundant, send up to a place called Burn, up in Yorkshire, an old ex airfield here and are you ok for time?
TO: I’m fine. I’m just checking there be, yeah, I’m just checking the [unclear].
BH: And I get there, masses of ex aircrew walking about doing nothing and what it was it went there before a panel and you had three choices of a trade: radar wireless, wireless mechanic, driver or radar operator. So, and you got all ex aircrew sitting back, what do you want to do Bernie? Sort of thing. I said, ‘well, I’ll go as a radar wireless mechanic’, ‘nah, you don’t want to go, it’s a year’s course, you will be out by then’, so then, ‘I’ll learn to drive’, ‘No, no one is gonna teach you to drive, you’ll be able to, you go as a radar operator’, so ok fine. In the meantime I was sent to a place as a clerk. So they got that all wrong until I said ‘I’m not a clerk, I’m going as a radar operator’. So finally they realised because when I reported to St John’s Wood, when I first went in, there’s another guy named Harris and he starts three numbers 168 same as mine, but his other numbers were different, so they got him mixed up with me ‘cause they didn’t look any further until they realised their mistake. So that was that, so eventually after much arguments I was, ok go down to in Wiltshire and you will become trained as an operator. So about twelve or sixteen ex aircrew we’re trained as radar operators, yeah, for six months. When we finished the course, the signal came from the Air Ministry, all the ex air crew that had taken the radar operators are now redundant, report back to Burn. So we got back to Burn, said ‘what happened?’ I said, ‘I want to learn to drive’, ‘ok we’ll teach you to drive’. So that was that.
TO: And what did you think of other RAF leaders? What did you think of RAF’s general leaders?
BH: In general, loved it. You see, the pysco is this, with aircrew, all volunteers, no one conscripted, they all had the same state of mind, they all wanted to fly and kill Germans. So we had all that in common and air crew is like a big family even today. Even with so few of us left. Silly contact, so, although it was a war it was a great experience, [unclear] my teams.
TO: Were there any ever occasions where weather at your airfields damaged the aircraft?
BH: No. The only laughable thing is that the weather, one briefing we had at OTU we head to normal briefings what you gonna do and end of which is the met man, I can see him now, tall man, long neck, big Adam’s apple, when he’s going all through the [unclear] and he says, ‘you got five tenths cloud’ and all that, but we said ‘it’s raining outside’ , he said ‘not according to my map it’s not’, and it was, it was bucketing down, not according to my map, he said, and that’s true.
TO: And what kind of information would you be given at the briefings?
BH: On a normal target, what you got to do, courses, the courses, navigation, radio codes, gunnery, the whole lot and then finish up with the met report.
TO: What kind of gunnery would you be, what kind of gunnery would they cover at the briefing?
BH: What kinds of what?
TO: What aspects of gunnery would they cover at the briefings?
BH: Just to make sure that your guns are ok, your belts are ok, the gun belts ‘cause they run on the side and your gun is fully charged and everything else. And also the height you’ll be flying at, in most cases more than about ten to fifteen thousand feet, then up to twenty thousand.
TO: Did you bring any rations with you aboard the bomber?
BH: Yeah. There was chocolate of course, gum, I think the gum, I’m not sure, certainly chocolate, apple, I think, what they called the flying breakfast you had to have a pint of milk, there’s an urn of milk on the side, and you had your flying breakfast going and coming back whatever you did. Yeah, there was a chocolate, I don’t remember any of the others ‘cause I don’t think I used it. I did use the chocolate once, it was like a block of ice, it was frozen, nearly knocked my teeth out. So I used to have it, everybody had a flying ration.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have at the air bases?
BH: Very good, very good, at Heaton Park, where we were waiting to go abroad, they had a most brilliant chef there and he made trifles every Sunday, now if I was out on the site I would make sure I go back, he was brilliant, but the food was good.
TO: Did you have more in the air forces food than as a civilian?
BH: Then what?
TO: Than as a civilian?
BH: Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.
TO: And do you remember, sorry I’m going back slightly but, do you remember how you felt when the RAF won the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yeah, elated. Absolutely, that was a turning point of the war. But that’s set off the Blitz, then he resorted to air bombardments by the Luftwaffe and when he was beaten in that, in the Battle of Britain, he resorted to night flying, bombing.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the attack on the Ruhr Dams?
BH: Yeah, 617 Squadron. Yeah, that was May 16th, 17th, and May the 17th was my 20th birthday. So, I remember it well.
TO: Was it widely reported in the press?
BH: Mh?
TO: Was the attack on the dams widely reported in the press?
BH: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. See, don’t forget, the Battle of Britain was the only real victory that we had, I mean, the desert warfare was going backwards and forwards with Rommel, so that was the only real victory and the bombing of Germany was applauded because we’d had enough, we, it was a turning point, it was, it was as if the Germans were invincible, that was a feeling, but when we had these victories, they weren’t invincible, they realized we could do something about it.
TO: Did they report much about the campaign in North Africa in the papers?
BH: Well, the campaign in North Africa, was, until Montgomery came on the scene was backwards and forwards, Rommel came, forced the British back, [unclear] finished up outside Cairo, at El Alamein and he stood his ground there and he beat Rommel but a lot of people don’t know if you get into modern history of the Middle East, that Sadat who was president, became president of Egypt, plotted with the Arabs to attack Montgomery from the rear to help the Germans and he was arrested by the British, yeah. I won’t go into modern history about the Arabs or anything else, but yeah, he plotted as the others, the Mahdi of Jerusalem went to Berlin so Montgomery had a lot against him but he fought through and he’s held at El Alamein and that was a good victory there. And that was another turning point of the war but you couldn’t rely on the Arabs nor could you today, I have to say, but anyway, scrub that. But yes, so, Battle of Britain and El Alamein, the bombing of Germany. Dresden, right, you take Dresden, Canon Collins who was anti, against the atom bomb and everything else CND he used to go around preaching to aircrew not to bomb Germany and he was allowed to do it for some reason. However, that’s another story, but if you take Dresden with Stalin who was advancing, Dresden was no longer an open city, before that they were making gun sites as well, had a big industry in gun, opticians and, Stalin said to Truman at that time and Churchill that Dresden, the troops, German troops are massing in Dresden and I want them seen to, I want them cleared, so both the Americans, us, the RAF, bombed Dresden. Dresden was unfortunate but there was twenty five thousand casualties, Goebbels put another nought on the ending, it made two hundred and fifty thousand but Dresden was needed because Stalin wanted it, it was in the way of his troops to get into East Germany so no matter what anybody said about Dresden, I will always say Dresden was needed unfortunate. You tell me about Coventry, you tell me about Rotterdam, you tell me about Bristol, Southampton, Bristol, you tell me about those cities, don’t tell me, don’t talk to me about Dresden.
TO: And then, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
BH: Never flew one [laughs]. Well, they served their purpose, the Heinkel was the most hated, the 101, no 111, no 101, because they used to desynchronize their engines, whether they did that to avoid radar or not but you could always tell them, the Heinkel 11, they desynchronized [mimics the sound of engines] so that was a horrible sound. The 109s they were ok, the Focke-Wulf was alright and then they brought in the jet towards the end of the war, the Messerschmitt jet, yeah, fighter aircraft, [unclear] aircraft.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah, especially the WAAFs. Yes, yeah, always had contact with the ground crew, and they’d always be at the end of the runway when you’re taking off.
TO: Did they see you, were they cheering at you?
BH: Yeah. [unclear] together two fingers back.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the first thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
BH: No, I wasn’t involved in it.
TO: But did they report it?
BH: Yeah, they’re good [?]. Actually they brought in aircraft from OTUs, Wellingtons as well, from OTUs and heavy conversion units, they brought everybody in, it was unlucky not to be called. Took tinsel instead. Window.
TO: And when was Window first developed?
BH: I think by Barnes Wallis, he designed the Wellington, I think it was one of his ideas. He just put it down the chute, the flare chute, just bundled it down. And of course, the Germans on their radar, swamped their radar.
TO: And you mentioned sometimes you went on these, was it secret operations or special operations? You said you went on operations to deploy Window as a decoy?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Would you deploy it around the North Sea?
BH: Yeah, I was [file missing] over the North Sea, yeah. The idea was if the main bomber, the main route was through Holland, from the East Coast to Holland. So, if a main group was going, say, across The Hague, we would go with the Window south of that because the German fighter group were patrolling round [unclear] so if they were sent off that way to find us with the Window, they used up their fuel so they had to come back to refuel and in the meantime the main forces got through. Coming back was a different story of course but the main force had got through.
TO: What do you think of the American aircraft of the war?
BH: Was a big aircraft with a little bomb bay. Didn’t have much to do with them really. I mean Mildenhall 3 Group where I was in, I was surrounded by the Americans, Norfolk and all around that. And the only thing against them was that, when they took off, they wouldn’t go over the coast until they got to their operational height and then they went, so if we had a [unclear] right, we got this humming guide on all the time and once they got their operational height, then their fighter escort would go off, and then off they would go, so we called them as a bloody nuisance. But they are good guys, I mean, they took a hammering, they really did. Their graves, memorial in Cambridge, massive, the graveyards there, massive memorial. Took a hell of a pounding.
TO: Did you, were you ever escorted by American fighters?
BH: No. No.
TO: Or Spitfires at all?
BH: No. The only time had contact with a Spitfire was that one they tested the side.
TO: Did you ever, did airfields ever run low on supplies like fuel or bombs?
BH: The airfields yeah, bomb dumps and fuel dumps, yeah. Yeah, self-contained, yeah.
TO: And did they ever run low on supplies?
BH: No, well planned. It was mostly worked by the Royal Army Service Corps. It was the same Royal Army Service Corps bloated our aircraft with food for Holland. Stacking up the bomb bay.
TO: Can you tell me how Operation Manna worked?
BH: Worked? I’ll tell you how it came about and worked. Yeah.
BH: Operation Market Garden, Arnhem was unfortunately a disaster. The idea was to shorten the war and go through [unclear] backed by the Germans. The Reichsmaster, it was a Hungarian, Austrian Nazi commander in Holland by the name of Arthur Seyss-Inquart was so incensed that he stopped all food coming into Western Holland from the agriculture part of Holland itself. Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard were here in England, in the UK, in exile and in January 1944 she called the railway workers to go on strike in Holland. Well this Nazi Reichmaster in retaliation ordered the sea locks to be broken, flooding Western Holland from Utrecht right round to The Hague. So, the dykes were broken and it was flooded. There was a population of three million nine hundred thousand in that area and this is a fact ‘cause I gave a talk on it to 622 Squadron which was reformed in Brize Norton in May, anyway. So out of three million nine hundred thousand, eventually twenty thousand died of starvation and malnutrition was rife, people were starving, so Queen Juliana appealed to Churchill and Truman and Eisenhower. Eisenhower said, they will have to wait, he is not committing his troops, while there are six hundred thousand Germans in Western Holland. Anyway, so Queen Juliana said, finally Eisenhower said, [unclear] find a way of delivering food. And he brought in Air Commodore Andrew Geddes, who was on tactical air force in main headquarters of the Allies, so cut a long story forward, he was met Bedell Smit and Bedell Smith to him, we have a situation, we got people starving and they have to be supplied by food by air. You devise a plan and you come and tell back and tell me what you gonna do. So, apparently, Andrew Geddes went away with others to tactical air force and he devised a plan for dropping food in certain areas in Western Holland by air incorporating the squadrons of Lancasters and also Pathfinders and he got hold of this Nazi [unclear] and in a school called, they met in a school called [unclear] and they explained the plan. The Germans didn’t like it, he said, not the case of you liking it, it’s what we’re gonna do. And if you interfere in any way in what we gonna do, you’ll be arrested as a war criminal. So, on April 29th, the 28th it started but the weather was too bad, so on the 29th of April Operation Manna started without the agreement being signed until the next day. And quite legally they could’ve been shot down and we’re going three hundred feet, hundred meters, something like that, we did a designated area, if anybody went outside that area they’d be warned by red flares and shot at and shot down. Anyway, so, it went off without incident and that was the start of Manna and it went from April the 29th to May the 8th. The Americans came in, they called it Chowhound, the next day and they finished on May the 7th. So in a total there was twelve thousand tons of food dropped overall, the RAF dropped seven thousand and the Yanks dropped four thousand. And to this day in Holland it’s taught, as history, by survivors and when we’ve been back there before we’ve been invited back, as I say, in 1981, we went in 1982 on that first trip, we were overwhelmed, we didn’t realise, people used to come up to us and still do when we go there, thank you for saving my life, thank you for saving my parents life, children are growing, it’s very touching. And that’s how it came about.
TO: And what do you remember the most when you were participating in Operation Manna?
BH: But we went in, I think about two or three thousand feet and dropped to three hundred when we got over to Holland. My first, I’m the last to see anything ‘cause I’m at the back, there’s this boy on his bicycle, on top of the dyke, flooded all around, astride his bicycle, waving a Union Jack and a Dutch tricolour, right and we were flying in just below the roof of a hospital, they were all waving sheets and God knows what else. And we went between The Hague and Rotterdam to drop at Eppinburgh and straight out again. But we could see people waving, they were warned to keep away, one guy whose pony rushed onto the dropping field, got hit by a sack of potatoes and that killed him. But other thing and the Germans were told that if they touched the food in any way they will be arrested as war criminals but this Nazi, he was eventually tried and hanged as a war criminal because not only was he involved in Holland, he followed the German army through the occupied areas organising transportations and everything else, he was a real, real Nazi and he was strung up.
TO: Is there anything else you remember in particular about Operation Manna, which sticks out to you?
BH: There is a guy named Hans Onderwater also a [unclear] historian, he wrote a book called Manna Chowhound, still very friends with him, right, and he organised a hell of a lot, what we, with the Manna Association, what we used to do, together with Americans, they used to come over here, we meet up in Lincoln, right, on the weekend, and we had four coachloads to go to various, entertained by various airfields the RAF Coningsby, Scampton, Waddington, places like that, and they used to, the fifth year we’d go to Holland, and boy! We didn’t know where were going and we were hosted all over the country, memorials, dining, visiting, schools, lectures, concerts, incredible, absolutely incredible.
TO: And the food supplies that you had on board the plane, were they, did they have parachutes attached to them?
BH: No, just dropped out the bomb bay. Just open the bomb bay, they’d fall down. The Pathfinders went in first who did the markers because they were told, the Dutch were told, the aircraft would be coming in and dropping red markers and then after that on their radios ‘cause they were all hidden, radios were all hidden, [unclear] anyway, the aircraft are leaving England bringing you food and of course all out on the streets waiting for the aircraft.
TO: Was there anyone that you know of who actually got fired at during Operation Manna?
BH: Yeah, one guy got a bullet through his foot because some irate Germans, we followed the guns, the anti tank guns, they were following us, could see that clearly and I tracked them as well, but of course we were vulnerable at that height, there were a few rifle shots, one guy got a bullet through his foot, and you could see that, that sort of things that were given there [emphasis: sound of papers rustling] [unclear] in there, a card from Prince Bernhard, he was our, he was our president, and that’s a card from from Bernhard when Queen Wilhelmina died I sent a card, a condolence card, got load of medals in there, as the other guys from Manna. Now, there is only six of us left and the guy, Bob Goodman, he was the leader of Chowhound, he died this March. So, like all good things come to an end, don’t they.
TO: When Operation Manna began, and you had the briefings,
BH: Yeah.
TO: Were you or anyone else surprised when you heard you would be dropping food?
BH: Not surprised, more of an adventure I think. I mean, it was humanitarian. No, it was a surprise, something we wanted to do and like all operations, when you go for briefing, the whole airfield is closed down, the gates are closed, RAF police on the doors, it’s a lockdown. You only go and get your gear and get your breakfast and go.
TO: Did it feel strange to have, to be carrying food rather than weaponry?
BH: Well we knew that, why we were doing it, I mean, three million nine hundred thousand people, I mean we got photographs of kids [unclear] walking about with large spoons, so when they went by these areas where the, kitchens, common kitchens, they’d scrape out the bottom of the urn, we got photographs of kids dying in the streets.
TO: Do you think Operation Manna could have been launched sooner than it was?
BH: I think it was in a timescale it should have done. Because they did know the seriousness after the what happened to, after Arnhem and this Nazi what he would do. He was rightly strung up as well anyway.
TO: And did you hear, was there much reporting on what was happening on the Russian front?
BH: Yeah, oh yeah. Well the Russians, you know, they took quite a beating until they got to Stalingrad, they could have gone, if they had gone past Stalingrad it would have been another story, but the winter of all things killed them, hope, unfortunately and the Russians, I mean, their hatred of the Germans, you couldn’t describe it, so, yeah, right, that’s why there was a great Communist movement in this country as well, because Communism as against, never mind what Stalin did with Holland he made the deal in ’39 didn’t he? With him, but regardless of all that, the British public could see the only real enemy and allies, as far as we were concerned, allies were the Russians. If it wasn’t for the Russians, the Germans would have been here. There’s no doubt about it.
TO: And when did you or when did the news of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: What?
TO: News of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: Well apparently, well being Jewish I know [unclear], we knew there was concentration camps and what the Germans did before the war with Jews and everything, with the refugees and everything coming over and telling their stories of what was happening. But apparently the leaders of the Jews in Germany were begging for the Allies to bomb the [unclear], but we were, with Enigma, Churchill’s excuse was we know but we, we don’t want the Germans to know that we have Enigma, that we’ve been broken their code, that was his excuse. There was one flaw, they were begging to be bombed because what was happening. But he didn’t want the Germans to know that we knew all about Enigma. So his excuse was no, if we know about concentration camps we would know their secrets. But they took no notice of what was coming out through the Jewish movement, with the concentration camps. Only it wasn’t only Jews, yeah, there’s the only fly in the ointment.
TO: And when did you personally first hear of the Holocaust?
BH: Not until the war ended actually.
TO: And what was your rank when you were in the air force?
BH: Flight sergeant.
TO: Flight sergeant.
BH: I was just coming up to warrant officer.
TO: And were you actually ever on bombing missions or was Operation Manna your first proper
BH: Operation Manna was only one, yeah. As I say, we were involved in experimental stuff.
TO: Did you ever experiment with stuff that turned out not to work? Did you ever experiment with equipment that didn’t work?
BH: No, no, the only thing we were doing was with that gunsight and also we were experimenting with things, high level bombing as well. I’ve got in my log book high-level bombing, which certain things had to be done and navigational things but as a person who wanted to get in the war I still regret not having a good run at the Germans by getting in to bombing raids. But then the powers above gave the orders. Couldn’t go off on our own. Have you ever met a guy named Harry Irons?
TO: Harry [unclear]?
BH: Irons? Harry Irons?
TO: Irons, I think I’ve heard of him but I have not met him.
BH: Oh, he’s local, he lives not far [unclear], he’d done two tours as a rear gunner. I was with him on June the 4th.
TO: Yeah. Of this year?.
BH: Yeah.
TO: Does he live that far from here or?
BH: Mh?
TO: Does he live near here?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Maybe you can put me in touch with him later perhaps.
BH: You want, well, do you want to see him?
TO: Well, maybe, if he wants to talk.
BH: He wants to, yeah, I only, I haven’t got his phone number. I got his phone number but it’s all wrong.
TO: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ve got his address.
TO: Maybe I could send him a letter or something.
BH: Do you want the address?
TO: Well, we can sort that later. It’s fine.
BH; Yeah?
TO: We can sort it later. It’s fine.
BH: Ok.
TO: So, where would you keep the parachutes on board the plane?
BH: Just inside the fuselage, behind the turret. You had to open the turret doors, get the parachute, click it on, turn the parachute, the turret to the side, open the doors and fall out. But you had to get to your parachute first, because it was in the fuselage. And if you couldn’t open the doors, hard luck.
TO: Did they have a steep hatch [file missing]?
BH: Yeah, further up. Yeah.
TO: And were there any occasions where you were flying over Europe and you got lost?
BH: Only in the one I told you about. We were actually fired at over the, over Jersey, we were doing a trip over there, a sortie over there, Northern France, experimental and we were actually fired at and I see this [unclear] coming up, but it missed, as you can see.
TO: Was the fire anywhere near the plane or?
BH: Not, it was why they missed, they went away. Just watched it coming up, this flame.
TO: Did you, were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Yeah, night training yeah, most of my flying hours were at night.
TO: And how long would a mission tend to last?
BH: Well, it be anything, an hour, an hour and a half, if you are doing circuits and bumps it could be an hour, we say the circuits and landings, circuits and bumps we called them. But one and three quarters hours, something like that.
TO: Cool. And what was the procedure for a squadron’s aircraft to take off?
BH: Well that was controlled by airfield control. Would you like a drink?
TO: No thanks, I’m fine, my eyes are a bit sore. [unlcear]
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, I’m fine. Yes, so, do you remember what the procedure was for taking off?
BH: Yeah, first of all you went out to dispersal by the crew bus, then you, you got in your positions, everybody in, everything was tested, the ailerons, rudders, flaps, not the flaps but the, certainly the ailerons, then the engines were started up, first the hydraulics, I think was the port outer then the port [unclear] in [unclear] and so forth. Get them running up all ready, then you got the call from aircraft control and you taxied out. And you waited on the tarmac and then as you were called from the air control on the end of the runway, right, give you the green light, you just went round and off you go.
TO: And what about landing, what was the procedure for that?
BH: Same thing, they called it, what they called the funnel, you’re in, pilot called out ‘funnel funnel‘, and they’re calling and said, ‘you do a circuit of the airfield and you come in’ and then, landing in like that there, one after the other and they called that funnel. That’s when you’re most vulnerable, the flaps are down, undercarriage is down, you have slow airspeed and that’s when they took advantage with the intruders.
TO: Were landings and take offs ever nerve-racking at all?
BH: No, I loved them, it’s the best part of it, landing and taking off. Even now, with commercial aircraft, the best part.
TO: When you were flying, could you, were you always above cloud level or?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Or could you ever see the land below?
BH: Only when it’s what they called ten tenths but if it’s like this you couldn’t, probably the height of the clouds at the moment thirty, thirty five thousand feet so if you did it in twenty you could see, but as I say, most of it was at night and don’t forget blackout everywhere. So, it’s all done by navigation and Gee.
TO: And how did Gee work?
BH: It was a series of signals and it was like a small television screen and they had two bars running, one across there and one underneath it, with like “V”s on them, like that, and then as you match them up, you press another button, up come a map where you were, showing you exactly where you were. But that time we got lost somewhere over the Midlands so it didn’t work so we didn’t know where we were but yeah I used to enjoy doing that because when we knew we were quite safe I used to get out of the turret and help Arthur with his navigation ‘cause one of my pet subjects that was when we at ITW.
TO: Were you allowed to leave the turret or were you supposed to stay there?
BH: Unofficially. No once you’re in there, you’re supposed stay in there, but there you are.
TO: And how, how much, was it very noisy aboard the planes?
BH: Very noisy, drumming. A lot of guys suffered, I still have a bit of tinnutis, a lot of guys got pension for the tinnitus, the constant roar of the aircraft, the vibration as well.
TO: And did you, did you have radio sets to talk to each other?
BH: Intercom. They had what they call RT, radio transmission, which another funny story. Stan Fig [?], our radio operator, he could swear for twenty minutes without repeating the same word twice and at one time, we were coming back, on OT on Wellingtons, and we were in a circuit and down on the starboard side to me, which is the port side, ‘cause I’m in reverse to the pilot, I called up with his [unclear] ‘Pete there is someone trying to muscle in on the circuit’, right, on your port side, right, now before that he puts, he switches the RT on, asked for permission to land, now that goes everywhere. So Stan, he puts his head up then and he starts swearing about these guys trying to muscle in. When we got down in the crew bus, picked us up and then he went and picked the other crew up who were Canadians and they go, who is that so and so and so swearing at us? Pete the pilot forgot to switch off the RT, yeah, and it’s gone everywhere, the Germans must have thought it was a foreign language or code, when we, had to report to the air control right and the WAAF at the air control she had a fit with all the swearing and everything [laughs], so, everybody knew about it, right, so anyway we got roasted over that.
TO: And whenabouts did that occur? Do you know what year and month that occured?
BH: Ah, that was in ’43, ’44.
TO: And this was during a training mission, was it?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you when you were flying over them?
BH: No, that’s all blacked out.
TO: And did you hear about the D-Day invasion?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah, because when it happened when they said it was a delay in pilot training they sent us back to St John’s Wood where we originally, all the aircrews reported to St John’s Wood. My first day I reported to St John’s Wood to have an inspection in Lord’s, I dropped my trousers under the portrait of W.G. Grace and again, I’ll tell you what, a plate of oxtail soup and we were billeted in St John‘s’ Wood so we were sent back to St John’s Wood and while we were still there the D-Day was on. We saw the aircraft going over. So, I remember that very well. June the 6th 1944.
TO: Were those have been the airborne troops or bombers?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: So were they airborne troops?
BH: Yeah. Were going over London from all round, from the South Coast, Sterlings were taking the gliders.
TO: What do you think of the Sterling?
BH: I’ve never got in touch with it, it was older and all but 622 Squadron they had Sterlings at first ‘cause it was a peacetime build up, peacetime field which 622 was born out of C flight of 15 Squadron which now flies Typhoons chasing German, Russian bombers. And they reinformed, we reinformed in Brize Norton three years ago and that’s why I was invited three years ago and also in May this last, this May to go there to give a talk on Manna. That’s why it’s all there.
TO: Did they enjoy the talk?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Do you know of anyone or meet anyone who ever refused to go on bombing missions?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Couple of Jewish friends, Harry Irons, who I mentioned, he was a tailor, he went in as a gunner straight away and, yeah, a lot of guys from Manna, who were wing commanders, one was a group captain, and we were as one, there was no rank then but great guys. One was Des Butters [?], he was a pilot on Pathfinders so yeah. Another one, I know very well, friend as well, David Fellowes, he is still very active, goes round signing books and he’s older than me.
TO: Were there any other times where someone refused to go on a bombing raid?
BH: Well, the only contact I had with anything like that is our first navigator, who was married and he couldn’t take it anymore and in those days they called it Lack of Moral Fibre. Today you’d go and see a psychiatrist and you’re just whipped away, away, demoted, taken to a place like Christchurch or something like that and demoted him and they treated you like dirt, where it’s a mental condition, I mean, they just didn’t want anybody contaminated, so we had to have a new navigator, a bomb aimer, sorry, he was a bomb aimer, a new bomb aimer.
TO: Did they ever, did he ever talk about what, the problems he had?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did this man ever talk about the problems he’d faced?
BH: No. No. Kept it to himself and then suddenly it’s gone.
TO: What is your best memory of your time in the RAF?
BH: My best memory is after the war when I was sent to Italy and I was on a Squadron, Cento, 112 Squadron and flying in a harbour towing drogues and they had the wing had it’s own rest centre with a hotel, the place called Grado and they want somebody to run it ‘cause the guy was going home. So I volunteered, so all I had to do was go there, make sure it was run properly, make sure it had all the rations and everything else, saw that the staff got paid, got myself a big ‘Q’ time dinghy, go down on the beach. Go back for lunch, go back to the beach again and make sure everything was alright. So until the winter set in then I couldn’t do it anymore and came home in January 1947. But there was the best time in the RAF [laughs].
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what is your worst memory of your time in the RAF or of the war in general?
BH: The worst memory is the ones that I told you, when the aircraft was rattling and we didn’t know where we were. Everything else is taken in stride.
TO: What did you tend to do to keep up morale?
BH: Morale didn’t come into, as I said, we were all volunteers, we knew what we were in for, so we used to go drinking together as a crew when we had nights off, each one bought a round of half a pint , so that’s three and a half pints, twice, seven pints, so we used to roll back, go to somebody else’s aircraft and get a wick of their oxygen and go back to bed. And they probably did the same to us.
TO: How did the oxygen help?
BH: Well, it livened you up really, it sobered you up.
TO: Were there any occasions where you oxygen supplies froze up?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did your oxygen supplies ever freeze up?
BH: No, no. Not that I know of.
TO: And how did those heated jackets work that you mentioned?
BH: Very good, in fact they ruined my feet for a while. You had, first of all you had silk and wool underwear, vest, long pants right the way down to the, then you had the uniform. Then there was, as far as the gunners were concerned, there was this heated suit which plugged in, so you had slippers, heated slippers that plugged in and all connected, all the way up. Then, your flying suit on top of that, your gauntlets, inner gauntlet was a heated one and all studded to this inner suit and then of course, your, mae west and then your parachute harness on top of that, so you were really lumbering. They brought you at one time what they called the tailor’s suit, it was massive, I don’t know why they got it, we couldn’t get into the turret with it so we quickly discarded that. It was huge like, huge, you know, God knows, anyway it was a bad buy, called it the tailor’s suit. So, yes, we had a heated suit but the heated slippers created havoc with the sole of my feet, burnt them, and it took two or three years after I had come out of the air force to get it right and after that out of habit I still wear white socks.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war ended?
BH: Yeah, I was over Holland dropping food. It was the last flight and then the war was over. May the 8th 1945.
TO: And what kind of entertainment did you have at your airbases?
BH: Well, some of them had ENSA concerts but there was not on the base, you had to go outside, at Mildenhall there was a cinema in the town. Some places had ENSA, where the singers and dancers used to come, they would do a performance, some were horrible, sometimes the cinema. One had a cinema that had broke down, halfway through the film, with Cary Grant, don’t remember the title but anyway broke down and that was that so went to the pub but entertainment mostly go to the pub, local pub.
TO: Were there any particular songs that the RAF liked to sing?
BH: No, not really. We used to sing flying, flying fortresses, fly never so high, go round [unclear] in circles finally finishing on their own, up their own backsides, something like that. Well, we put a girl on a bar in a pub and the song is, this is your ankles, this is your kneecap, this is your and this is r, r, r, you know, all that palaver and the girls loved it. But apart from that, made our own entertainment.
TO: And on days when you were just stationed on the airbases, not on operations, could you hear the drone of other bombers flying around?
BH: Well, the Americans. Oh yeah, well at Mildenhall because they used to start four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning. ‘Cause they would totally fly in day, in daylight, which they could, you know, they were vulnerable, very vulnerable.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: Mh?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: I’m sorry.
TO: Do you think the war was worth it?
BH: It was essential. You wouldn’t be here today. Nor would I. It was essential. The biggest mistake was, when Hitler came to power, I think, Churchill warned, war was coming, nobody took him notice until finally 1938, ’36, the Spanish War, which was a rehearsal for the Germans, they should’ve start rearming then, ‘cause the writing was on the wall. But there were a lot of vested interests in this country like Lord Halifax at that time, who was, he wanted to negotiate with the Germans. Churchill sent him to America as an ambassador, he was a German lover and there were a few others in the arms industry as well, them German lovers, vested interests. So in 1936 the writing was on the wall. So, Churchill was the only one who could see it. And they called him a warmonger. But they say, comes the moment, comes the right man.
TO: And how do you feel about Germany today?
BH: The old generation I don’t want hear anything to do about. The new generation are different ‘cause they don’t want anything to do with their own teutonic ways of life, they’re youngsters, you can understand, they’re a great help to Israel, lot of Germans used to go to Israel, kibbutz and all that, I’ve been there, they’ve been there, right, and no, from what they doing I admire them but the only thing now is, I mean, now we got this exodus, well, I call it the exodus, Brexit, coming out of Europe, my opinion is that in time that Germany will be the dominant nation in Europe, who don’t like the French and the French don’t like them. I just hope [emphasis] that it all works out, we don’t get sucked into another war. Because the idea of a united Europe in the first place was to stop wars. So, I’m sad at the outcome. But as far as the Germans today, I admire them in a way, they’re doing well, very well. In part of course they got right wingers again, which has clouded the whole issue with the referendum, I mean immigration has clouded the whole issue, people can’t see further than, so I won’t go on to that. ‘Cause there is one man I blame, it’s the worst president at the wrong time, at the wrong time, Obama. You can edit this but I’ll tell you, when he said to the Syrians, yeah, that if you use chemical weapons on your population, that is a red line, and he’d become a puff, a puff of a pink line, he’d done nothing and that was the signal for them to do whatever they wanted to do. What general tells the enemy or, I’m not going to send an army in, there will be no boots on the ground and that caused what is happening now and that’s caused, who wants to leave their home really, and that’s caused a desperate refugee problem in Syria. I put it down to, the quicker he goes the better, he’s out anyway, so. That’s my opinion.
TO: And what do you think of Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
BH: I think it was the right one. I really do. With Afghan it’s been going on for years, when I mean the Russians and all they’re interested in doing there is killing one another and killing everybody else. I mean, it was going on before the First World War, our Bomber Harris used to fly biplanes, and they used to fly with I think it was a pot of gold ‘cause if they were captured, they gave it to the Afghanis, the tribesmen otherwise they cut their testicles off. So, that’s pre 1914. So that’s [unclear]. With Iraq that was a different story, yeah. The biggest mistake with Iraq when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, yeah, and Bush senior invaded, don’t forget Palestinian also, Palestinian terrorist also sided with and in they went into Kuwait as well, right, thought that was a good thing. But when George Bush senior and the Allies went in and pushed them out of Kuwait and on the road to Baghdad all the goodies said stop, you mustn’t do it, said stop, that created the next problem and the next problem was, who knew, he did have gas, he gassed his own people. Of course he had a secret weapon. All these do-gooders, yeah, what happened if they did have them? But the biggest mistake was and is, the Western world does not understand the hatred between the Sunni and the, oh God.
TO: The Shi’a. The Shi’a?
BH: Shi’a. They hate one another. And always will hate one another. They didn’t understand the enmity. So the Shi’a were the governing body in Iraq and the Sunnis hated the sight of them. ‘Cause you got Iran fostering them all up as well. But the bigger to say was they used to call the Foreign Office the camel brigade, Arab lovers ‘cause most of them used be educated in Lisbon, they don’t understand the hatred between the Shi’a and the Sunni and that will never go away. There will never be peace with them. That’s the biggest problem. Don’t blame Blair, blame his advisors who knew the Arab mind, they knew about Islam, they didn’t advise him properly. You go in, make sure you got a proper government. Don’t leave it to the Sunnis or the Shi’a. And that will go on.
TO: I think I pretty much asked all of my questions, so. Thank you so much, I really enjoyed.
BH: You are welcome. Do you want a cup of tea or something?
TO: Ah [file missing] So.
BH: Did the museum supply you with that?
TO: No, it’s my own.
BH: Really?
TO: I brought my so, I do film interviews. And, have you ever watched films about the war?
BH: Yeah.
TO: And what do you think of them?
BH: Yeah, quite good. Glorified, you know, made for the screen, a couple of, a few things they say makes me wince, but for instance pilots always have to be commissioned, right, but, in actual fact you could have a sergeant pilot and a squadron leader rear gunner, right, but films glorify, I mean, as far as a pilot is, ‘cause he’s, the officer he’s the only one to talk about, so. The best film I ever saw was “Journey Together”, where, it takes Richard Attenborough, when he was very young and somebody else, can’t remember his name, where they come together in the ITW and it goes through their course and Richard Attenborough, and then he’s gone overseas, and so is his friend, his friend come to pilot, Richard Attenborough can’t tackle flying, crashes the plane [unclear] and he doesn’t like it, he has to be a navigator, so it is a very good film, so they put him to the test, right, so the screen pilot is flying an Anson which is the one of the planes I was trained on and says I’m not [unclear] and Richard Attenborough, I can’t get what, you know, he want to be a pilot, anyway he says I’m not [unclear] something then they got him, he actually got up, worked it all out then where he were and he realised then that he is just as important as a navigator as all the rest of the crew. Each one has his job to do, they are all important, so, I think that was the best one ever. Another one was the “Journey to the Stars”, we see again only officers please, yeah, otherwise worth watching but that with the “Journey Together” was the only one that I really liked. The other was, you know, we only serve officers if you don’t mind.
TO: What do you think of the Dam Busters film?
BH: Well, that was quite factual, and they couldn’t mess about with that. So, that was quite good, that was quite factual. In fact, in matter of fact, we met his daughter, Barnes Wallis’s daughter up at Coningsby year before last.
TO: Yeah.
BH: Was Open Day up there. I don’t if you went.
TO: No. And do you remember hearing about Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
BH: Yeah. Yeah, 1941. Of course.
TO: And what was your attitude when you heard that that had happened?
BH: Well, this is the Axis, the come together the Japanese and the Germans, and the Italians of course. No, it was all part of the war process, wasn’t it?
TO: And what do you think of America’s use of the atomic bombs?
BH: Absolutely right. The war could have gone on for ages. Could have gone on for years. Are you tried to sorting out all those islands full of Japanese soldiers and the poor people in the camps? Right? Building the railways, slave labour, starving to death, of course it was right. Absolutely. Don’t call me a warmonger.
TO: I’m not.
BH: [laughs]
TO: And what do you, do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly?
BH: Bomber Command was not?
TO: Treated unfairly after the war.
BH: Sorry?
TO: Do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why Bomber Harris went to South Africa. He didn’t want us to be redundant. Don’t forget a lot of them had to cover up their chevrons, they had to cover up their rank, I mean, that was degrading.
TO: Why did they cover their chevrons?
BH: Because they were given [unclear] office work and things like that, yeah, and so they couldn’t work amongst people, all the aircraftsmen so they had a thought, oh well, they cover up their chevrons, after all that, the thinking of some of them in Air Ministry that’s why Bomber Harris went in disgust, he wanted us demobbed.
TO: And do you remember hearing about when the Cold War was starting and Stalin was taking over Europe?
BH: [unclear] sorry?
TO: Do you remember hearing about when Stalin was taking over Eastern Europe?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, first of all there was a treaty between him and Germans over Poland which the Germans broke fortunately, they brought Russia into the war, but he was just, to me, you know, Fascism and Communism in it’s rawest form are just as bad as one another, even to this present day, I mean Putin, he is just mixing it all up and that’s the Russian way of going. And we again in the West are too weak, Crimea, he got away with it, as he gets away with everything. ‘Cause he’s too powerful, he’s bombing civilians. In Syria no one takes any notice but I bet you, because personally, right, if the Israelis done anything like that, it’d be like that on the headlines. Which they wouldn’t. Are you with me?
TO: Yeah.
BH: But Russia, no protest from anybody. He’s moving children out there in Syria on the pretext ‘cause he’s shearing up Assad, ‘cause he wants the Mediterranean Tripoli port for his Mediterranean fleet. It’s the only reason. But he’s a murderer. So he’s as bad as any Nazi.
TO: And do you remember, were there any particular celebrations when Japan surrendered?
BH: When what?
TO: When Japan surrendered, were there any particular celebrations?
BH: Oh yeah, well that was in, what was it June, was it, ’45?
TO: Yeah, August/September.
BH: Yeah, ’45, oh yeah, but that was a sort of a sideshow, as to the war in Europe. But the emancipated people that came out on the, terrible, I mean, they’re animals to do what they did. So, that’s all behind us now, was it?
TO: And how do you feel today about your wartime service? How do you feel today about your wartime service?
BH: I’m quite proud of it. I wish I could’ve done more. Yeah.
TO: And what was your career when you left the RAF?
BH: Irregular [laughs]. To own my own business, owned my own business, had that going. Don’t forget that, you know, I’m not the exception but a lot of people, thousands of people, I mean, come out the forces, they didn’t know what to do, right, some had been in five years, four years, three years, I was in four years, four years out of your teens yeah, so you don’t want to be regulated if you know what I mean, right. You are really unsettled until you find your niche and yeah, unsettled, ‘til finally I founded my own business and that was that. Then I knew what was about.
TO: And, sorry I didn’t ask, during the Blitz, whereabouts in London were you living?
BH: In East London, Forest Gate and then we moved not far from here, to Chapel Heath, which is further up the road there and bought my own house, we had a great time there. The only reason I’m here is ‘cause the house was too big for my wife, she was suffering from emphysema, so the best thing is to get a retirement flat like this. I’ve got a sister who lives in Arizona, we’ve done three months there. I got a son and grandchildren in Israel, we’ll have three months there and the rest of the time in between summer months here. But as soon as we retire, that’s what we’re gonna do. So we bought there [unclear] outstanding [?], you tell him upstairs what’s going on, and what your plans are, he’ll laugh his head off. Didn’t work out. Within two years she was dead. So I’m here, don’t particularly like it, I make the best of it, so I go to Israel a few times, my son is now living down in the Negev but it is too hot for me, I was there last October, [laughs] hit a hundred and four Fahrenheit, so a bit too hot for me, it’s alright further north, Tel Aviv and all around there, Jerusalem, but not where he is. So that’s the name of the game but always say, tell him up there, your plans, laugh his head off, he’ll make sure it doesn’t work out, and you know what I mean.
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war that you’ve not talked about, which you think is important?
BH: What?
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war which you’ve not mentioned so far, which you think is important?
BH: No, not really, I can’t think of anything. I certainly know when the V1 was about because we were training over the, flying over the North Sea, and we were told, if we see anything like that we shouldn’t mention it to the public, and when on leave with the V2 we just walk, suddenly there’s a thump, it’s the rocket had landed, but then again you know, you’re immune to these things, coming conditioned I think.
TO: So did the V1s or V2s have any impact on public morale?
BH: Concerned but they weren’t frightened of them, they knew, you know, it was the end of the war anyway. Everything was going right and that was the last throw of the Germans, Peenemunde was known about and bombed, but the V1 was transferable, they could move it around, with the V2 rockets had to have their own base and they were bombed out of sight, but a few got up and dropped but people took it as they did in the Blitz.
TO: Did you ever visit any of those places like Coventry or?
BH: Only on business, yeah. Places I built. Portsmouth and Plymouth, Plymouth, new town, new city. Rotterdam new city, absolutely new.
TO: And what do you think was the biggest mistake that the Allies made during the war?
BH: I don’t think they, I think it was circumstances, I don’t think there was any mistake. They had to respond to circumstances and the main thing they had to keep in mind was defeating the Germans. So, if there were a few mistakes, when they tried Dieppe, it didn’t come off but they were probing and they had to do these things to test their defences, so I wouldn’t put that as a mistake, it was unfortunate.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Mh?
TO: What do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Well, two. The Battle of Britain and the North African campaign. Because they cleared that, there was a jumping off to get into Southern Europe via Sicily and Italy. So, two. The bombing campaign was a consequence of war, that was to stop Germany getting too strong by manufacturing armaments and things like that and also the psychological part of it was giving a bit of their own medicine because the public was screaming out for something to be done in revenge and the Germans, a part from being a planned objective, is also a moral and psychological one, giving them back as good as they get, as they’re given. That’s my opinion.
TO: Anything else you want to add to anything you said earlier at all or?
BH: No, I don’t think so.
TO: Right well.
BH: Just nice to have seen you.
TO: Thank you very much, it was
BH: Give my regards from up there.
TO: Was a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much.
BH: Yeah. Nice to see you. And be well.
TO: Thank you, you too.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AHarrisB160626
Title
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Interview with Bernie Harris. Two
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:19:14 audio recording
Creator
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Tom Ozel
Date
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2016-06-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Harris joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force, joining in April 1943 and training to become an air gunner. Mentions his father serving in the Royal Flying Corps. Witnessed the London Blitz as a young boy. Describes training and operational flying conditions. Gives a vivid, detailed, first-hand account of Operation Manna. Expresses his view on wartime events, including Chamberlain’s speech, the North African campaign, the Phoney War and the Russian contribution to the Allied victory. Explains why, in his opinion, the Allies decided not to bomb the concentration camps during the war. He was de-mobbed in 1947, after a final posting to Italy with 112 Squadron. After the war he set up his own business leasing vending machines. He later became involved in an association of ex-servicemen who were involved in Operation Manna.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
515 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
entertainment
faith
Flying Training School
Gee
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Holocaust
home front
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hixon
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Stalin, Joseph (1878-1953)
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1192/11765/PWestonJ1703.2.jpg
2faeb0311e15f568727cc9eb29f838bc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1192/11765/AWestonJ171130.1.mp3
ca67913cb7dd29e3f9fe480f551f519c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Weston, Jim
James Weston
J Weston
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Jim Weston (b. 1922, 1539596 Royal Air Force) an identity card and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 23 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by James Weston and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Weston, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I am interviewing James ‘Jim’ Weston, a pilot with 23 Squadron today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Jim’s home and it is the 30th of November 2017. Also present at the interview is Jim’s son, Steve. So, first of all, thank you, Jim, for agreeing to talk to me today. So first of all, do you want to tell me a little bit about your life before you joined the RAF?
JW: Well, I worked in a paper factory and when the war started I was transferred to the engineering department and by 1940 and ’41 I was on munitions, on a milling machine, making aircraft parts. So when one of my friends had joined up earlier than me was killed in Norway and my other friend was waiting to be called up, so I went to Wigan to join up. They told me that the job I was in, my boss would get me off the list in reserved occupation but the interviewer said, there’s just one exception, if you volunteer for aircrew, and passed the interview and the medical, it takes preference, so that’s what I did, and that’s how I got in the Air Force.
SP: And what was it that you particularly wanted to join the Air Force for?
JW: I was interested in radio. I wanted to become a radio mechanic but when they did call me up some months later, it was to Blackpool to be an air gunner wireless operator. But while I was there in three months in Blackpool, an officer came round and said they were short of pilots and navigators, if anybody wanted to remuster, now was the time, so I remustered and got on a pilot’s course.
SP: So, what was life like at Blackpool at that time?
JW: Well, it was just a fortnight before the Americans came in the war in 1941 and there must have been a thousand men there, learning to be wireless operators, so, I joined this group that went to ACRC in London near Lord’s Cricket Ground in a group, of some flats. From there we were posted to St Andrews in Scotland to join ITW, Initial Training Wing on a pilot’s course. From there three or four months later, after ground subjects, we went to Perth in Scotland on Tiger Moths to learn to fly. So we weren’t told how we’d got on but I’ve been posted from there to Manchester, Heaton Park where people weren’t always easy. We were going to go either South Africa, America or Canada, that’s the three places that pilots were trained and everybody wanted America because we knew how good it was. But late in Autumn of ’42 we got a train to Glasgow and finished up on the Queen Mary which docked in Canada, sorry, docked in Boston, America and we got a train from there to Canada. But the Queen Mary, some weeks before, had collided with a cruiser and sank it and it had, its bowels were crippled, but they hadn’t got time to repair the ship, they filled it with concrete. So I went to America while it was like that some months later before they repaired it properly. So from, the train journey to Canada to a place called Moncton, we went to a Assiniboia to an airfield, it was a three day train journey to get to the middle of Canada and that, from there on we learned to fly Tiger Moths with a covered cockpit because it was very bad weather in Canada, the winter of Canada, I went past the part of the early flying, posted again to North Canada, to North Battleford to fly Oxfords, that meant we were going in to Bomber Command. So by May 1943, we finished the course and we all got wings, posted back down to Moncton again, ready to go for a ship, from there we moved to Halifax, in Nova Scotia, and we caught a ship back to UK, docking in Liverpool in 1943, June I think it was. And from there we went on further training to Scotland on Beaufighters eventually being swapped over to Mosquitoes which got me to Little Snoring in Norfolk where eventually I did a tour.
SP: So, before we talk about your tour, do you want to tell me a little bit about what life was like while you were training, what would a typical day be like while you were doing your training in Canada?
JW: Well, the first part of the training that we did in Perth on Tiger Moths, I think there were thirty of us, and we all have to do so many hours with an instructor, and the instructor threw the aircraft about a bit, mild aerobatics and two of the crew were constantly airsick and they were taken off the course to either be a navigator or a bomb aimer. It seems that they don’t mind you being sick in the back of the aircraft but not if you’re sitting- if you’re flying in it, so we lost two there and gradually the twenty eight of us moved to Canada and some more fell out on the trip. So we finished up eventually getting to Battleford with some more that joined us about thirty odd people that I’ve shown you on that photograph where we got wings.
SP: So, when you were in Canada itself, what was the airbase like where you were, where were you billeted?
JW: The airfield in Assiniboia was a grass airfield so we, it was all snow at the time we were flying on it.
SP: Was that hard to [unclear]?
JW: Well, if you can land an airplane on snow, you can land it anywhere because you have now perception of depth when you’re flying over a white blanket, like I say, some failed by the wayside by doing this.
SP: And you flew quite few different planes there, you said, the Tiger Moths started off and?
JW: Tiger Moth, from Tiger Moth to Oxfords.
SP: Yeah.
JW: And then we got back to UK, more Oxford training and eventually on to Blenheims and Blenheims, from Blenheims you went to Beaufighters and I was on Beaufighters when D-Day was announced. So we were taken off Beaufighters almost overnight and said, you going to go on Mosquitos now not Beaufighters, so, we got two hours dual on a Mosquito and then he said, off you go and that was the amount of training we got on a Mosquito, two hours.
SP: And was it quite a lot different from the?
JW: It was a faster aircraft altogether but a Mosquito.
SP: Yeah. So, which was your preferred plane of those, which did you enjoy flying?
JW: The Mosquito I think, that was, once you got over the odd things about it like slight swing on, take off it was a very nice aircraft that, never had any trouble with it.
SP: Yeah, so, you then got posted to 23 Squadron
JW: 23 Squadron, yeah
SP: At Little Snoring
JW: To do intruder work.
SP: Do you want to tell me a little about what that was, intruder work?
JW: My first trip was to Zuider Zee in Holland, find out the coastline, just a sort of break-in trip and then the next one after that was to Denmark and gradually we went into further ones into Germany with the exception of we did, I did three to Norway and all the rest were Germany.
SP: And what would a typical trip be, what would the role be for you?
JW: Well, we were briefed at two o’clock in the afternoon, told where we were going to go, if there were say thirty of us about to go out that night we went off at different times. It might be from two o’clock after briefing you could be going out as soon as it got dark somebody would be taking off. And then all those wait till four o’clock in the morning to do their take-off, so there was always a constant stream of people going back and to from Snoring.There were two squadrons on the station, 23 and 515.
SP: I’ll just let the clock chiming there [clock chimes] [laughs], yeah, so we got 23 and 515, so, obviously you’d take-off, what would your, what would you be doing in your role on a trip then, so you’d take off and say a typical trip to Germany what would that be?
JW: Well, we took off and I was low level, we never went above about two or three thousand feet down to four hundred feet except on a couple of special occasions when all the squadron were told to all go off at the same time and bomb a certain city to draw the night fighters from one part of Germany to give the heavy boys less trouble. Two of the stations to bomb were Bonn, BONN, we all went to Bonn one night and another night we all went to Wurzburg and we had to bomb from about fifteen thousand feet. And it was a clear night and as I went over the city I could see the trams running, you know when a tram goes over the points you see flashes, electricity, I could see all the trams are running, all the way through the raid,
SP: Did you meet much opposition on the trip?
JW: Never saw any German night fighters but a certain amount of flak, especially over a large city, if you flew over a large city, they’d poop off with the flak but when we went to attack an airfield, the airfield would never fire at you until you’d open the fire first. I suppose they thought they were cloaked in darkness and it was always blacked out the airfield, so, we’d find it, attack it and then the flak would started after we’d done the attack.
SP: Yeah. Are there any particular operations that stand out in your mind for any particular events or anything?
JW: Well, I went to a place called Kitzingen two or three times and that’s just north of Munich I think it is, and just south of the airfield there was a hill with three red lights on it for the German airmen, so if we got a bit misty all we had to do is find these three red lights and fly due North for two minutes and we were over the airfield. I actually attacked Kitzingen on Christmas eve, that was my trip to Kitzingen, and it was lit up and so we attacked it with cannon fire that particular night, the flak started but I’d had gone then.
SP: Particularly how many planes would there be on those sort of operations?
JW: Well, if we had news that one particular station was now harbouring night fighters the attack would be, there’d be about, three of us would be attacking the airfield in rotation, somebody might do it from seven till eight, I might do eight till nine, and somebody would do nine till ten, keep their night fighters on the floor.
SP: So, how do you feel about those operations, cause obviously it was an operation that was really helping the heavy bombers, wasn’t it to keep them out of the air?
JW: Yeah, that was the idea, intruders was designed for that reason so, once you’d done the trip over the airfield, you’d done your hour, if you have any bombs left or cannon fire left you’d attack a train or anything that moved over Germany at night so it was trains, we used to go after the engine.
SP: Was that quite often, you had some time to do that or ammunitions left or
JW: Yes, several, I can’t say the exact number, but it was occasionally we’d have to, have time to do that, yes
SP: Anything else about that time in 23 Squadron that stands out or?
JW: One particular night, I don’t know if it was January or February, I, my turn to go, say about eight o’clock at night, I can’t remember exactly but it was snowing very hard and there was snow already about an inch all over the airfield. So I could taxi round by seeing the blue lights through the snow till I got to take-off point and it was still snowing very hard and I couldn’t see the lights on the runway to guide me for a take-off only the first two or three lights. I sat there with the engine going for a minute or two and then a voice came out of the dark and said, aircraft at the end of the runway, take-off at your own discretion, that means they put it in your call so I figured it and then I thought, well, if I can see two or three lights now from here, as I progressed forward I’ll see the next few and the next few. So I decided to take off and I got off alright but as soon as we were airborne in the snow, I went on to instruments, turned round, this was going west, so I turned round to go east, so, I was over the North Sea when suddenly all the instruments stopped, they were locked, so I didn’t know, what height I was doing, what speed I was doing, so I was, it was still in a snow cloud and I was feeling, flying the aircraft by feel not by incident instrument and it suddenly started to stall, and my navigator shouted at the same time as I put the stick forward and I got out of the storm I thought, I climbed slowly, I wanted to get above the cloud and then drop down when I got through the side.Eventually I got over the cloud and I looked round and the instruments were still locked so I remember being shown a year ago about a direction finder in the tail here, hanging on the loop, on the barrel about this big and it was a direction finder, so, I looked around for the instrument was on the right hand side and by this time I was above the cloud and I looked round and found the North Star and set this gyro to zero for North and then I put a mayday call out. I got a call from, I forget the name of the place but it was Woodbridge in, where is it, near Ipswich I think it is, and it was an emergency airfield and they talked me down, I wanted to know what height I was at and eventually they talked me down and I landed. When I landed the instruments were still stuck and my navigator asked one of the instrument mechanics to come and have a look at it to confirm that I’d landed with no instruments that I’d had the trouble. So we, they put us up for the night and by this time the next morning it had thawed so I went back to Little Snoring then.
SP: So, you obviously you had a night at a different base that time?
JW: What?
SP: You had a night at a different base that time, but you were based at Little Snoring, do you want to tell me a little bit about the airfield and the base there?
JW: That was a couple of miles outside a little town called Fakenham and we got out once or twice into the town but not very often and about every seven weeks we got a leave which extended, you know, over the twenty seven weeks I was based there so I got a few trips home. The CO was a Wing Commander Murphy and he was a real toff, very, one of the old school. But I know on the airfield there used to be a Tiger, no, a Tiger Moth, a Magister aircraft, single engine and an Oxford and all the pilots were supposed to use these two aircraft occasionally, to get keep the hand in and I went to the CO Murphy and I said, I’ve got a weekend off now, can I borrow the Oxford or the Magister? And he said, take the Oxford, and I took it and flew it to the nearest airfield to Warrington, about two miles south of here and I stopped over the weekend and then flew it back. So next time I was off, a few months later, I went to him again and I said, can I borrow the Oxford? And he said, yes, but I want you to take my navigator with you this time, he was a flight lieutenant and he was from Liverpool but we couldn’t land at Liverpool, so we landed at a little airfield opposite Liverpool, on the other side of the Mersey called Hooton Park, so I dropped him off and another person while they went on leave and I came to Stretton and then on the Sunday morning I went back to Hooton Park, picked the two of them, pair of them up and flew them back to Little Snoring. That’s how good the CO was.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Yeah.
SP: The benefits of being a pilot, I’ve not heard that before. Yeah.
JW: Yeah, well, I went to Stretton four times, twice in an Oxford, once in a Magister and another time I was on a seven day leave when the rest of my friends in the squadron we have helped to do an air test and I said to one of them, while you’re doing an air test, can you drop me off at Stretton in Warrington. I took him to Warrington in about twenty minutes and he dropped me off and I came home and when I went back on the train it took me about twelve hours.
SP: Definitely a different journey
JW: Yeah.
SP: So, you talked about your crew there, do you want to talk about your crew, who was in your crew?
JW: My crew?
SP: Yeah, your crew.
JW: It was Don Francis, he was, at the time served instrument mechanic who transferred to aircrew and became a navigator, he was very, very good. Oddly enough, we only lost, was it, eighteen months ago he died. We were due to go and meet him and his sons and they rang us up and said Don had died overnight. So we kept in touch over the years, and met once or twice on reunions but was about to see him for the last time and we were too late, he’d died.
SP: It’s good you kept in touch all those years to catch up.
JW: Oh yeah, we did, yeah.
SP: So, there were two crew on a Mosquito?
JW: Two, yeah.
SP: Yeah. So, and how did you crew up, how did you all get together?
JW: We crewed up when we were on Beaufighters in Scotland, learned to fly a Beaufighter and as soon as you’re competent in it, we all got in one big room and there were say ten pilots and ten navigators and they just said pair up. So he came to me and said, have you crewed up yet? So, I said, no, he said, oh well, I’ll join you then and that’s how we met.
SP: And it worked perfectly ‘cause you really got on, you kept in touch all these years. Yeah.
JW: Yes, we did. [pause] One particular night, I wasn’t available for some reason and my navigator was spare and the CO Wing Commander Murphy went to him and said, would you like to do a trip with me? And Don said, no, he said, why is that? He said, well, I know Weston’s a damn good pilot, but I don’t know what you’re like. So, he wouldn’t go with him. But sometime later, Murphy did the same thing, to a flight sergeant Dougy Darbon and they got shot down. That was the end of Murphy. But there’s been a lot of talk about this Dresden being a cruel raid but actually it was my last raid and I had to go to an airfield in the Ruhr which was supposed to be a night fighter base which is on the way to Dresden but, there was, nothing happened, there was no activity at all and but Dresden was bombed twice I think, once by us and once by the Americans and there’s been a lot of talk about it being cruel, but it was no more cruel than these V-2s that were dropped on London and other places, that was just as bad as attacking, it was, anybody, didn’t it, the V-2?
SP: So the, you were due to go to an airfield that was outside Dresden to draw the night fighters.
JW: To draw the night fighters, or stop the night fighters getting off, yeah.
SP: Yeah.
JW: But, like I say, it didn’t mean a thing towards Dresden and it was the same as Cologne or any other German city, yeah.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Yeah, I remember one particular night, we’d been to an airfield and there was no activity and I said to the navigator, find me a town on the way back, city or a town, and he, he pointed he said 5 minutes will be so and so, and we, I forget the name of the town or the city now, so I dropped a bomb on that and then came back to base. The next night we were getting briefed for another raid, another trip and they announced that this particular city that we dropped one bomb on was due for a four hundred Halifax and Lancaster raid [laughs] so the people who had the first night they think, oh, that bomb, that one bomb, it will be all over in a minute, but four hundred more kept coming, I can’t remember the name of the city now.
SP: You said on one trip you actually escorted four hundred Halifaxes.
JW: Yes.
SP: Can you tell me about that trip?
JW: Five of us were briefed one afternoon to say you’re going to Norway tomorrow but today fly to Scotland , Dallachy, and wait there overnight. And if the raid is still on the next morning, there’s four hundred Halifaxes going to Bergen which is in north Norway after the U-boat pens. So we were told what time they were taking off and we took off an hour later because we were a hundred mile an hour faster and we caught them up, we could find, we were in rain or snow or cloud most of the way but my navigator had them on the radar we knew exactly where they were all the aircraft and as we approached Norway by a miracle about fifty miles away from Norway, the cloud disappeared and it was a perfect day. I was about fifteen thousand feet and I climbed higher because the bombers were gonna go in about fifteen and we could see little ships coming out of the harbour all going out to sea, they all knew what was coming up. Slowly these Halifaxes came over and hit these U-boat pens and in about five or ten minutes, there was nothing but grey smoke coming from the coastline and we’ve circled round and round waiting to see if any German fighters came up but there was no activity like that and eventually the four hundred has finished and we waited till they’d all dropped the bombs and still turned round. We had to escort them to, I think it was two degrees east or something like that, something beyond the range of their fighters and once we let them go, we catching them up again so and circled around to waste time and gradually as they all disappeared back to UK, we went back to Scotland to refuel at Little Snoring. We got back to Little Snoring and put the radio on at night and they said a force of, I don’t think they mentioned Halifaxes, a force of bombers attacked Bergen in Norway today and one aircraft was lost but it wasn’t lost over the target what, we found out later on its way back to UK it flew into a hill and so, it was a completely well worked out trip and nobody hurt at all. [pause] On one particular trip on the way to Holland, about fifteen hundred feet, two thousand feet, I could see V-1s coming the other way and I described it to the debriefing officer later and he said, oh, we know all about them, we are dealing with them. So I forgot that until some weeks or days, I’m not sure of the time, I was approaching Holland and I saw a light on the ground suddenly start to lift off and I thought it was a fighter or another, one of their aircraft about to take off and I followed it and watched it climb and I climbed so far after it and it was a lot faster than me and the last time I saw it, it looked like a star, the light had gone. I reported this to the debriefing officer and he said, ‘oh, we know all about them, you’ll be hearing about it’, so a fortnight later we found out that it was a V-2, I’d seen one take off but as I passed over the spot I told my navigator to plot the position so they knew where it was from but I do believe later they were moving these V-2 sites constantly to baffle the people who were seeing them take off. My last raid was on the night of Dresden. I had to go to an airfield in the Ruhr, it was supposed to be a night fighter base but it was complete darkness I went round and round and found nothing at all and came back to base, having not fired a shot because couldn’t see anything but Dresden was a target that was attacked by the RAF and the American Air Force in over two days so that was the end of my tour. I was, after some leave I was posted back to Scotland to a place called Charterhall where they were training other night fighters base to join the squadrons doing the work, I was on this base when V E Day, so I was posted to another airfield in Lincoln where I met another pilot from 23 Squadron and we were there two or three weeks, and there was a notice came on the notice board, they wanted pilots to train on single engine aircraft Typhoons, to go to the Far East, so I said to this Benny who was, I met there, do you fancy that? So he said, yeah, so we both put our names down this to go and train on single seat fighters. A fortnight later the postings came through, he was posted on Tiger Moths and I was posted on Dakotas which I did for the next three years. So, I joined a squadron at Manston, Kent, going back and to, to Germany and places like Gibraltar until ’47 when I was posted to Burton Wood in Lancashire waiting a posting overseas. Eventually the posting came in, it was Egypt and I was posted to Fayid on the canal zone and there’s, the chief officer of the canal zone, I met him and he saw my logbook and he said, oh, Mosquitoes, he said, I’ll put you on Mosquitoes. After all this training on Dakotas I was now going back on Mosquitoes and it was a PRU unit at Fayid. But they’d formed, photographed everything for five hundred miles in every direction so there was nothing to do until one day the CO came in the crew room and he said, can anybody fly an Anson? Well, I said, I can, I’d had a couple of hours, so he said, right, get yourself on a Dakota to Iraq [clock chimes]
SP: Just wait for the clocks to chime [laughs]
JW: [laughs] When you get to Iraq, at Habbaniyah, you wait there for a York to take you to India, I want you to bring an Anson back because the British were getting out of India at this time, if you remember the date, and so I flew this Anson back the long route all the way back to Egypt, got it back to Fayid and another, a week went by and he said there’s another aircraft in India, who wants to bring it back? Who wants to go? So two of us put our hands up and there was two, two were waiting there, two more Ansons so we did the same trip Habbaniyah. Wait for a York and when the York was approaching Habbaniyah the one, I was a passenger in this York and another York came alongside flying in formation and ahead was only about, fifteen, twenty miles away from Karachi when this other York, this suddenly decided to lift off and come over the top of those, and he came over the top of us and knocked the tail off. The York has three fins at the back and it knocked three foot off, every fin. What the pilot managed to get it down and they were both charged then with dangerous flying but we were very, very lucky that day we didn’t knock it all off. From there they realised there was no work for this PRU squadron (Photographic Reconnaissance Unit) and I was posted to a Dakota squadron at Kabrit, so that was a more interesting place and there lots of trips that we did to, we went to Greece, Sudan, Eritrea, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and India and in 1948, May 1948, how many? Six of us were briefed to go to Israel to bring out the air force, the British were getting out of Israel at this time, three of these aircraft went the first day and I was on the second wave and when we went down to flights the next day the CO was waiting for us, he said, there’s been some trouble at Ramat David, this airfield, the Egyptian Spitfires have come over, five of them and attacked all these Dakotas. One was blown up and burned out, one was damaged and they also attacked the control tower, so he said, you three are going but you’ve a Tempest escort to get you there. So we went off with these Tempest, we got to Ramat David and we evacuated personnel and equipment from there to Cyprus but as we went back, as we went to Cyprus at night time the next day we were in a bar, somebody brought a newspaper in and the headlines were RAF shoot down five Egyptian Spitfires. These Spitfires, they’d come back again and these two Tempests were waiting for them and they shot the five down, so that was the end of that. Actually this, the one that was damaged, was still working on the airfield and I waited with him and eventually he said, the pilot came to me and he said, I’m gonna take off and if it’s alright I’ll come over and give you a waggle and he said, you can take off then. He said, if it’s dangerous, I’ll come and land and I’ll come home with you. Anyway, he took off and he came back apparently alright, did this and then I took off and I flew the last aeroplane out of Israel back to Egypt.
SP: So Jim, do you want to talk a little bit about your route to India when you were doing the transport?
JW: Yeah, the CO of the Dakota squadron said that anybody can fly an Anson, they wanted to bring aircraft from India and I volunteered because I’d flown Ansons and he said, pick yourself a navigator, get a lift to Habbaniyah in Iraq and wait there for a York. This York will take you to Karachi, where there is an Anson waiting to be brought back. Well, an Anson can’t fly very far so I had to come back the long route, which is underneath Iran, what was it? Sharjah, Duwarni, and then we, to Bahrain we stopped the night in Bahrain and then the next day take off from Bahrain and go to Shaibah in Iraq, from Shaibah back to Habbaniyah, stop the night. The next day we took off and went to an airfield in the middle of the desert called LGH 3, Landing Ground number 3, which is halfway between Iraq and Israel, eventually we stopped at Israel, I can’t remember the name of the airfield, we stopped the night there and this particular night there was a fence all around the airfield because of wild dogs and on the second trip, one trip where just two of us went there was, we landed .The night before we left Karachi on the second trip this other pilot and myself went out into the town and had a few drinks and by we didn’t think we something we shouldn’t do, we had something to eat, the next day we both had the runs, so, all the way back we stuck with, having to get out until eventually we got to Israel. I mean, I was in one Nissen hut with my navigator and he, Peter was in another one next door and outside there was a toilet that had been built in between the walls, it was a concrete circle with a wooden seat on top with six partitions for the toilet and in the night, Peter was, he was still in trouble with his stomach, he got up with two lots of paper, one lit and the other one for the obvious reason and he lifted the lid off this toilet he was going to use and threw this lighted one down and it blew up and it woke us up the bang [laughs] and he come and stood in the doorway, we put the light on and he said, just look at me, and he was covered from head to foot in excretum from airmen long since gone and he said, I had to show you because you wouldn’t believed it tomorrow. So he went and had a shower, but, so we didn’t sleep again that night.
SP: Yeah. On one of the trips as well you said that you stopped at a place called Habbaniyah and there was, you say there was a smuggler there
JW: Oh, the smuggler
SP: Yeah
JW: We passed all these things on to him and made a profit on that and then brought some of the cigarettes back to Egypt to a shopkeeper on the base and made a profit on that one as well. Yeah.
SP: Helped increase the salary a little bit [laughs].
JW: Actually, the one, the shopkeeper, he was caught selling these cigarettes and they hadn’t got a stamp on so they put him in jail for a few weeks. A Sudanese lawyer dressed in a smart suit came looking for me and he said, Weston? I said, yes. He said, did you sell some cigarettes to Mr so and so, I said, no, it wasn’t me, he said, oh, he told me it was you but he said, I realised you wouldn’t admit it but he said, in future if you get anymore cigarettes, he said, here’s my card, and this was his lawyer [laughs].
SP: [unclear] [laughs]
JW: Another trip we did from Kabrit, there was some trouble in Eritrea so I can’t, I think it was either three or four aircraft, took twenty soldiers each, to quell this little riot, Eritrea, Asmara, the capital of Eritrea, and that was another trip we did, and when we landed there, I was told to go to a certain hut and it was just going dusk when I got to this hut and I put me tackle on the bed and there was no light on and suddenly the window was open and something flew in and clanged into this light and it fell on the floor and the regulars that lived in this hut, they all covered themselves with a blanket or a sheet and I did the same, I said, are they dangerous? They said, no, but aren’t they bloody awful. And it was, it turned out to be a dung beetle and it had flown it and hit the light and it fell on the floor and it looked like a little tortoise on the floor and then suddenly the wings sort of came out of the shell and it went up like a helicopter and out again through the window so I thought it was something dangerous but it wasn’t [laughs].
SP: And very unusual to see.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. So Jim, you also mentioned you were heavily involved with the Berlin airlift, so do you want to talk a little bit about that?
JW: I will do, yeah. Now, while I was serving in Egypt, a CO came into the crew room one day and said he wanted crews that were willing to go to Germany as the Berlin airlift had started. The airlift had started in June, and in August they wanted more people so I volunteered to go, my crew went with me, and we got a lift to UK, Oakington in Cambridgeshire and the very next day off to Fassberg in Germany and started the airlift from Fassberg. So we go from Fassberg to Gatow in Berlin and back again in two trips a day until the Americans joined in the lift and they wanted an airfield so we were all taken away from Fassberg and went to Lubeck so that the Americans could have Fassberg only for themselves. So we started the airlift again from Lubeck and two trips a day and then you’d finished and the idea was, when we got a weekend off, when you went back to the base, your first trip would be two o’clock in the afternoon, go to Gatow, come back, reload, go back again to Gatow and then back home and then the next day you started at one o’clock and the next day after that you started at twelve o’clock and slowly went back in time. The idea was that everybody would share the night flying that was going on so you did this for about seven or eight weeks and then another weekend off. So when you’ve been on this about three or four months, when you’re having a meal, you didn’t know whether it was breakfast, dinner or supper because you’ve lost track of the day, the time and eventually I finished up doing over two hundred, around about two hundred and twenty trips to Gatow and we landed at Gatow, unloaded and then we either bring back old people or children to Lubeck to be reallocated so there was less mouths to feed in Gatow itself. So the Americans, like I said, they joined, the British went to Gatow and the others went to Tempelhof or Tegel, I’m not sure of the right one, the Americans, and this went on till the following, I think it was the following June when the airlift finished but we carried on doing it even though it was officially finished. The Russians had lifted the barriers on these places but they’d stopped transport coming in and trains so in the fact that the airlift was over but I remember doing two trips to Warsaw after the airlift was over. And I’ve been to a lot of places in Europe like Berlin, Paris, Brussels, Vienna and some places in the Middle East like Gibraltar, Malta and wherever you landed there at one of these places, a well-dressed man or woman would meet you and say, welcome to and take you to immigration but the difference was when we landed at Warsaw, I opened the door of a Dakota and standing underneath it were two rough looking soldiers, Russians with a Tommy gun and they pointed the Tommy gun at you and motioned it down like get off and that was the difference in [laughs] get in the reception, so I only managed to do that twice, yeah, to Warsaw.
SP: You said you did a trip to Warsaw with some diplomats as well you took to Warsaw?
JW: With what?
SP: Some people to negotiate treaties.
JW: Oh yes, I think it was five MPs were going to negotiate some sort of pork or bacon, deal with the Poles, I can’t remember what the other people were they were took in [pause] no, I can’t remember what they were, who they were but I only did two trips to Warsaw from what was the main airfield in UK at the time before Heathrow, I can’t even remember the name of that one now, it’ll be in that logbook.
SP: We’ll copy your logbook, so it’s with the recording, so.
JW: Pardon?
SP: We’ll copy the logbook, so it’s with the recording, so, yeah.
JW: Yes, ok.
SP: So, obviously you completed your time with the RAF.
JW: Yes, I came back to Oakington to do trips to Gibraltar and odd trips around Europe. When it was my time to be finished, the CO sent for me near the end of my tour and said, you’re wanted in air ministry, go to, go get a train voucher and you go to Air Ministry to meet and eventually either a wing commander or squadron leader and I went to Air Ministry on the train and then the Tube and I met this man and he said, I had to bring me logbook, and he opened me logbook and said, oh yes, he said we’ve got a record of this, he said you’ve got a well, a very nice setup, you’ve been a good servant to the RAF, is there something we can do for you? He said, like, where would you like to be posted to for your last few couple of months? So, I said, the nearest airfield to Warrington, the nearest flying unit to Warrington, oh, he said, right. I came back to Oakington, when me posting came through, it was Cranwell, now, Cranwell is the worst place in the world to spend your last days because if it moves in Cranwell you salute it, and if it doesn’t move you paint it white and I only found out, oh, years after, that the nearest airfield to Cranwell is Waddington and this chap in the Air Ministry had got it wrong but I didn’t realise it was in the time so I spent me last time in Cranwell and then I came out in 1950.
SP: And what did you do then after?
JW: Oh, I went back to the same firm I’d worked at. When, you, did I tell you about joining the Air Force, oh, I got, when was it? I went to Wigan, I’ve told you about going to Wigan and the boss got to know about it and said, you’ll not get your allowance, have I mentioned the allowance?
SP: No.
JW: No? Oh, when I went to join up at Wigan, and then they said you could only join up as aircrew.
SP: Yeah.
JW: So, my boss got to found out and he said, I’ll get you off, you know, so I didn’t say anything so a couple of months later my posting came through and I had to go to Padgate and he came to me and he said, I tried to get you off and he said, they tell me you joined flying unit so, I said, yes, he said, you’re not getting your allowance, you know. Apparently if a married man from this firm got called up, he paid his wife so much and if you was single, he paid your mother so much and he said you’ll not get your allowance, so, I said, oh, I managed to say that I’m not bothered about the allowance, I said, I’m going into a war and I thought, well, and twelve months later, while I was in Canada, I got a letter from me mother to say that the manager or the director of this firm had sent for her and said that where’s your son, and she said, he’s in Canada learning to fly, he said, oh, he said, I’ll start paying you this allowance. But I never told me mother about this allowance but she was due it so he started paying it, and he said to her, have you got a job or your husband got a job and she said, no, I have not, me husband’s in a job, he said, well, I’ve got a job for women in munitions part of this factory but would you like a job? So, he gave her a job and he said to her, your husband, tell your husband to come and see me and he gave him a job. And so, they both worked right through to the end of the war. And eventually when my time was over in 1950, I met a girl from the firm that I was going to marry and he sent for me the boss again and he said I believe you are going to marry, so I said, yes, he said, has the firm bought you anything? So I said, no, he said well, what would you like? And I said, I’d like a bedside cabinet in walnut, he said, go and buy one, or get one made, and give me the bill and I am the only man or woman in that factory that ever got a wedding present off the boss. It was on his conscience all that time.
SP: Yes, yeah. And what was the company called?
JW: Chadwick’s paper mill.
SP: Chadwick’s paper mill.
JW: It’s on the side of the river, across there but it’s gone now, it’s been flattened, it’s gone so
SP: It’s based in Warrington
JW: It’s based in Warrington, yes.
SP: Yeah.
JW: It’s quite a big firm, there’s about four hundred people working there.
SP: Yeah. So that was your wife then.
JW: That was the end of time, yes, when I got married, yeah.
SP: And did you stay at Chadwick’s for the rest of your…?
JW: I stayed there for a while. And then I wanted, when Steven came along, me first, and I wanted more money and I went to another engineering firm and went to several jobs like that until eventually I was working at one when the new boss at the Chadwick’s phoned the firm I was working at and said ask Jim to come and see me and he offered me another job, more than I was working, more money than I was working so I went back to Chadwick until it finished again. And then from then I finished up with a job at the college in Warrington as a technician which I served me time there till I was sixty five, that was, that’s thirty years ago I’ve been retired.
SP: You’re ninety-five now.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Ok.
JW: So, that’s the end of my story.
SP: There was a lot of really interesting, lots of different experiences there that you shared with us so on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre we would like to thank you for your time today, Jim.
JW: Right.
SP: So, thank you.
JW: Ok.
SP: Addition to interview with Jim, so, over to you, Jim.
JW: Twinwood’s an airfield, is a satellite of Cranfield, I was there in the June of ’44 and it was the airfield that Glenn Miller took off for his last flight to France and disappeared, Twinwoods.
SP: Yeah.
JW: I think his band was based in Bedford, Bedfordshire and he was on his way to fix up a date for his band to come and play in Europe, France or somewhere like that when he disappeared and they’ve never found any trace of him at all.
SP: And did you see him at all on the base?
JW: No, I was there some months before him,
SP: Right, yeah.
JW: People said, where did Glenn Miller fly from? And I think he came from a place called Firstford, American base and for some reason came to Twinwoods because that his band was based in Bedford itself and it made some sort of reckoning with him and then he took off in a Norseman, it’s a single engine aeroplane with just him and the pilot.
[pause]
SP: Ok, well, thank you very much for that, it’s one of those things we will never know until maybe they find the plane and it see whether or not
JW: Might be
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Interview with Jim Weston. One
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Susanne Pescott
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-11-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWestonJ171130, PWestonJ1703
Format
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00:54:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Weston joined the Royal Air Force because he wanted to become a radio mechanic. While training at Blackpool as air gunner wireless operator, he remustered as a pilot. Remembers being posted to 23 Squadron at RAF Little Snoring, where he carried out intruder operations against enemy night fighters. He witnessed the take-off of a V-2 rocket. Jim remembers his last operation to Dresden, targeting an enemy airfield nearby. At the end of the war, he was posted to a Dakota squadron in Egypt. He then flew around two hundred and twenty trips during the Berlin airlift. He spent his last days with the RAF at Cranwell before coming out in 1950. On being demobbed, Jim went back to work at a paper factory.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Eunice Watson
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Iraq--Ḥabbānīyah
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1948
23 Squadron
aircrew
Beaufighter
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Flying Training School
Initial Training Wing
Magister
Mosquito
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Cranwell
RAF Little Snoring
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/921/11529/APescottSM171018.1.mp3
42ca6713ac5e82b8b008ab682176172e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lawson, Homer
Harold Lawson
H Lawson
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Susanne Pescott about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Lawson DFC (b. 1921, 1544881, 177469 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and album. He flew operations as a navigator with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susanne Pescott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lawson, HA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott of International Bomber Command Centre, talking today about my own father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Homer Lawson DFC. Today is the 18th of October 2017. My father, Harold Arthur Lawson was born 24th of August 1921 in Salford, Manchester. His parents were Arthur and Emilia Lawson and Arthur was a piano teacher. He also had two brothers, Arthur and Stanley. He went to Gresham Street School and was an altar boy at the Church of Ascension in Salford. After school, he went to Grammar School and worked for Acme Welders as an engineer before he signed up in 1941. He was aged twenty and he signed up at the recruitment centre in Padgate. I’ve actually got the letter that was sent from the Air Ministry, I think it’s really interesting that in this letter dated 22nd of September 1941, in the end paragraph it says, in wishing you success in the service of your choice, I would like to add this, the honour of the Royal Air Force is in your hands, our country’s safety and the final overthrow of the powers of evil now arrayed against us depend upon you and your comrades. You will be given the best aircraft and armament that the factories of America and Britain can produce, equip yourself with knowledge and how to use them. I can’t imagine what a twenty-year-old, his reaction would be to that, but I should imagine it’s quite daunting to have all that pressure suddenly seen. So, he started his training around the end of 1941 and he was trained to be a navigator and the training was at Scarborough, many crews were based at hotels in around Scarborough at this time, the Grand Hotel, which is still there today, was where a lot of the exams were carried out, not sure the exact hotel my father stayed at, but it would’ve been around that area. His nickname, as I said in the entry, was Harold Homer Lawson, he was nicknamed Homer and that links in to his role as navigator, as he was always seen as bringing the crew home. After his initial training, he moved to number 9 AFU in January 1943 to start training on Ansons and this was at Llandwrog in North Wales, which is now Caernarfon Airport. I think he did well to survive the initial training there as there were very high losses during this time on the Ansons due to its close proximity to the Snowdonian mountains. After there, he moved up to Scotland to 19 OTU which was Forres in Kinloss and here he met up with his Canadian pilot who was Johnny Hewitt who actually ended up being a lifelong friend as they kept in contact after the war as well. While he was here, they practiced lots of things, like cross country training, fight affiliation, high- and low-level bombing missions and foundation flying and formation flying and on here he was on both Ansons and Whitleys. In 1943 they were moved to a conversion unit, it was number 1663 and this was based at RAF Rufforth in Yorkshire and Yorkshire was where he was going to remain to carry out all his operations. Here he met his magnificent Halifax bombers, this is the plane he would complete all his operational tours on. And finally, in November ’43 he was posted to 10 Squadron and this was at RAF Melbourne in Yorkshire. 10 Squadron known as Shiny Ten, and completed quite a huge number of operations from there. His crew whom he met and crewed up with were Johnny, who I mentioned, Johnny Hewitt, he was Canadian, he was the pilot, my dad was the navigator, the bomb aimer was Erwin Bayne, known as Paddy, and he was from Ireland and, F Wheaton, I don’t know his first name, was the wireless op, Sam Smith was the mid upper gunner, and known as Titch to the crew, S Leonard, again I don’t know his first name, was the flight engineer, and M Grey, another Canadian, was the tail gunner and he was nicknamed Blondie. So, it was a bit of a baptism of fire for the very first ops, I can only imagine how the crew felt when they were told it was going to be Berlin, so the 29th of December they at 5.10 set off and that is 1943 to complete the first operation and it is part of the Battle for Berlin. So during this operation, they encountered and shot down a Junkers 88 and then returned to Melbourne 7 hours and twenty minutes later and found that the tail plane had a lot of flak holes in it. This was really to set the tone really for most of their tour of ops as they had several more encounters with German planes and shot down a further two during the thirty-eight ops. So, after the initial baptism of fire, it went a little quite during January and February but again started to get busy in March with several night operations over France, the crew also started to do a lot of minelaying operations, a very different role and quite a challenge for navigators because there weren’t any landmarks and talking to many navigators that have done from around that time, they tended to pick out the navigators who were good because of getting the exact location, so really proud that he was picked out for that. Moved on into April ’44, lots of missions over both Germany and France and that included missions to Essen and Dusseldorf and both of those missions, they were actually caught in searchlights and following an electrical storm on another trip to Karlsruhe they had to land at the emergency airfield at Manston as the engine cut out as they were flying over the east coast. In May the crew were attacked by a fighter over Mantes-Gassicourt so quite a lot of interaction with enemy fighters. But the busiest month [unclear] was June 1944. A lot of mining to start with when, throughout the Hague and then on D-Day, my dad and his crew took off at 2.55am to part, take part on the gun batteries at Mont Fleury, these were overlooking Gold Beach, and this was in preparation for the D-Day landings, his logbooks actually says, the second front started on that actual article. So talking to another veteran, Ken Beard, who was from 10 Squadron, and he set off from Melbourne only three minutes before my dad, so he’s seen exactly the same things, and he said, they weren’t told any details, other than to ensure that they didn’t drop their bombs early, and when they got over the Channel they could see exactly why and that’s because there were hundreds of ships sailing across the Channel at that time. It didn’t stop there on D-Day, they had another operation later that day, and they took off at 22.30 and flew to Saint-Lo where the Germans were based, they had to fly very low at two thousand feet. The rest of the month kept busy, very high activity with a lot more minelaying and started to get some day as well as night operations as well. On the 15th of June, on a trip to [unclear], the plane was once again in combat with the enemy, another Junkers 88, they managed to set his port engine on fire, but the plane cylinder head broke on the return journey making the starboard outer US as it says in my dad’s logbook. It’s worth noting here that the plane they were flying on at this time was a Halifax III, it was known as the Ol’ Ram, it had a fantastic nose art painted on it, which was a picture of a ram smashing three swastikas and painted by one of the groundcrew whilst it was at 10 Squadron. So, the plane was seen as lucky cause it was ZAJ with J for Johnny as the pilot, so they were quite pleased to get that on the majority of their operations. On another raid, on a daylight ops to Noyales on Chausseur, the starboard engine again had problems on the way down in but they carried on on their mission and feathered on return to make it home. You would have thought that might have been enough activity in June but then again, 28th of June, on ops to Blainville the crew had actually three combats on that trip and destroyed one Messerschmitt 210, the logbook actually reads, it hit the deck three minutes after the starboard wing was set on fire, so, a very eventful June which continued into July, at the beginning of July doing three trips over to the V bomb bases at Saint-Martin-L’Hortier, two of these night raids and one day, flak particularly heavy around this installation, the Ol’ Ram, the plane came back from one trip with flak holes in the port tail. I think it must have been quite difficult going on the, on these V bomb trips to Saint-Martin-L’Hortier on one of the flights I know that it’s reported that one plane dropped its bombs on another Halifax squadron and it actually crashed and killed all the crew and on another trip one of 10 Squadron’s own planes was actually shot down, so I can’t imagine having seen that on one trip, the courage they would have to have to go back day after day to the same destination is a very special sort of courage. The Ol’ Ram was hit more by flak on trips to the various railyards and then on the 20th of July the very last ops for the crew was a trip to Blowtrop and here they had a petrol leak on the port inner and the port was US again referred to in my dad’s logbook and the ammo tracks caught fire so a very eventful last trip. So, the crew completed thirty-eight operations and my father, I am very proud to say, was awarded the DFC in November 1944, I’ve got the original press article and that reads, it was given for gallantry and devotion to duty in air operations and actually refers to throughout an exact, throughout an exacting tour of duty, this officer has displayed exceptional ability as a navigator, and cool courage in the face of the enemy, on four occasions his aircraft has been engaged by enemy fighters and in the ensuing air combat three hostile aircraft have been destroyed. So, after they’d finished their operations at Melbourne, they went back to Forres, did more training and flying, this time on Wellingtons, and then ended up back in Yorkshire, at RAF Rufforth at a Conversion Unit. In May ’45 my dad was moved to 77 Squadron and at this point they were based at Full Sutton and he had a new pilot, Flight Officer Pickin and they were on Halifax VIs and then started training on Dakotas and this was ready for preparation to fly them to the Far East to support the Burma campaign. Lots of practice of supply dropping and glider towing and this was done at Broadwell and they finally set off on the 22nd of September 1945 on route to India. The route took them via Libya, Sedam and Yemen into India and then took them from the 22nd of September until they finally arrived at their destination on the 1st of October. October ’45 shows that the main trips they did were around India and the Khyber Pass and supply dropping and bringing troops back. I have a copy of a letter that my dad sent to his pilot, Johnny Hewitt, when he got the, the information that he was going to be sent over to helping the Burma campaign, so I’ll read a little bit out of this, so it just says, I left Rufforth and was posted here, 77 Squadron, ex Elvington, remember the time we all went to Elvington, and that will refer to a time when 10 Squadron had to pick up some planes for an operation and borrowed the ones from 77 Squadron and he also says that he was here on V E Day, didn’t even get one op from here where we are now on transport and I am converting to Dakotas in a couple of months. Talks about training and constantly lectures with the Far East and Burma and tropical diseases and learning about different forms of navigation again on the stars. It says as well to help with being able to navigate by the stars, they’ve wired off the Gee and H2S so that they can only use the stars to navigate. One of the comments he’s put in his letter, says, well, it looks very much that I shall end my life in Burma or some place, you can imagine me under a mosquito net, scratching elephant bites and sweating horse feathers beneath some tropical sun. So, I don’t think he was particularly looking forward to that tour. The logbook continues with lots of daily activities but then on the 22nd of November 1945, the logbook just stops, no idea why cause not like my father [unclear] to leave things unfinished but he has, I know he returned home and was demobbed in late ’46 but no more detail at all. After the war, I know he was taken back by his old employers and worked in engineering all his life, becoming a chief estimate with a company called Acro that then became known as Thomas Store. 1950s he met my mom, Maureen Chilton at Belle Vue Dances which is in Manchester. My father was strict Church of England and my mom came from a Roman Catholic family so you can imagine that wasn’t an easy ride, both sides of the families refused to accept the relationship, so on New Year’s Eve in 1955, my mom slipped out, carrying her wedding shoes and they got married at Manchester Registry Office with one friend and getting a member of public off the street to sign there as witness. And mom and dad went on to become great ballroom dancers winning many medals, so they early started at Belle Vue Dances [unclear] through the rest of their dancing years. Unfortunately on the 12th of September 1975, my dad died very early of a heart attack and he never actually spoken of his war years and the remarkable feats of bravery that he’d shown and really wish we could turn the clock back and hear those stories direct from him and actually you know, let him know how proud I was of him and what he did. I think in a way this is why I’m so privileged to be an oral interviewer for Bomber Command’s Digital Archive, I can hear these stories it makes me realise the sort of activities my dad would’ve been involved in but also to keep them for future generations and let them have the opportunity of listening to a family member recount those stories that I never heard. My research into my dad started about three years ago when I was looking into family history after about a year of research and talked to my brother he asked, would the logbook help? [laughs] Well, clearly that opened up a whole new avenue and it helped immensely. Unfortunately none of his crew was still alive by the time I was researching but I did manage to track down the daughter of his pilot in Canada, Johnny Hewitt, my mom had pulled out some old photos and there was a letter in there from Johnny from 1975 and it had arrived with my mom just after my father had died so really just being put to one side and it was saying that Johnny’s daughter, Pam, and a friend were going to be coming to Europe on a trip of a lifetime and could they met up with my dad and stay with them whilst they were over here. I don’t think the letter was ever replied to unfortunately because of the timing, so I started to look into the letter and try to find a phone number and but I couldn’t, I saw an address so I wrote to this address, didn’t get any information back after a couple of months, so I decided to phone all the J Hewitts I could find around Ontario [clears throat] just to see if I could find, if Johnny was still around, the pilot but again no joy. Think I must’ve been searching a few months each night and just looking on the internet, doing little searches with different names and I finally came across an article in a small Canadian paper, the Aurelian Times, it was talking about a Johnny Hewitt in the cross hall of fame and it had a little quote from his daughter saying that she hadn’t realised how important he was to the cross or how good he was because he didn’t shout about those things that he did, just like he didn’t shout about his time in World War Two and then I see that the daughter is called Pam, and I think, could this be the link that I was looking for? So, I emailed the editor of the paper and asked him to pass my details on to Pam, a week went by and then one night suddenly an email popped through, just saying, I am the Pam you are looking for, still gives me goose bumps now talking about it, but that started up a great correspondence with Pam. I sent her a copy of the letter her father had written, she’d never seen any of his letters so it was quiet precious to her and she let me know that she actually did come across and do the tour of Europe and she actually stayed with my grandparents, my dad’s father and mother who a lot of the crew went to stay with when they were up in Manchester anyway so they were all well known to them and Pam did a little bit searching and to my surprise she found three letters that my dad had sent in 1945 and 1946 and gave a real insight into his life and the sort of things that they were doing during the war. I think one of the things that quite surprised me from it was almost desperation from my father wanting to do another tour with Johnny and the rest of crew and said he got the crew together and could they all do another tour together, and the thing that just clearly showed the bond that they had and how difficult that must have been breaking up after all they’d been through and you know, despite the risks, they would still want to get together just so that they could keep that, you know, comrade and friendship going and on that. So I think whilst nothing can replace talking to my father about his time in the war, the letters, you know, filled such a void there and also talking to the veterans from 10 Squadron where I’m a member of the association and they can really bring it to life with several of the veterans being also on the same trips that my dad did. So, I hope that one day, you know, maybe I’ll come across a recording of his crew and until then I’ll keep my search continuing, so I’m hoping that people will find this of interest and useful and that maybe one of the relatives of my dad’s crew and the crew of the Halifax III ZAJ the Ol’ Ram will be able to find out a little bit more about their families, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Susanne Pescott
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APescottSM171018
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:22:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Susanne Pescott talks about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Arthur Lawson DFC, who worked as an engineer before joining the RAF in 1941, where he served as a navigator. After completing his training, he was posted to RAF Rufforth and from there to RAF Melbourne on 10 Squadron, with which he flew 38 operations. His first operation was to Berlin on the 29th of December 1943 where they shot down a Junkers 88, for which he was awarded a DFC in November 1944. Among his various operations, particular relevance is given to the ones in June 1944, when they targeted a gun battery in Northern France in preparation of the D-Day landings and shot down two enemy aircraft. At the time, he was flying on a Halifax III, known as the Ol’ Ram for its particular nose art. In May 1945 he was posted to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton, where he trained on Dakotas in preparation to fly to the Far East. In October 1945 he was then posted to India to drop supplies and bring back troops. She recounts her efforts made to find her father’s pilot, Johnny Hewitt, and getting in touch with his daughter.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943-12-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1945-10
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
19 OTU
77 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
mine laying
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
nose art
Operational Training Unit
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/PHumesEL1701.2.jpg
b7e2bdab74eff6b6808ac8b8bdfd9361
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/AHumesEL170826.1.mp3
8e7d785f41f1ca0887f9c3ad8481803a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Humes, Eddie
Edward L Humes
E L Humes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Eddie Humes (b. 1922, 642170 Royal Air Force), RAF personnel document and a memoir. After serving in Balloon Command, he flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eddie Humes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Humes, EL
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Eddie Humes today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Eddie’s home and it is the 26th of August 2017. So first of all, thank you Eddie for agreeing to talk to me today. So, did you want to tell me about your time before the war?
EH: Well, before the war, I left school at fifteen, with my ‘tric but didn’t follow education through partly because of the circumstances at home, you know. We had a big family and needed workers and employment situation was bad unless you wanted to go in the mines and my parents didn’t want me to go into the mines so we had a little bit of an argument and eventually they agreed to me going to the RAF and the following, follow on is printed in just another story so there’s no point in me going on that. Uhm, I got my wish eventually, I got onto aircrew, that’s in there as well. I joined in on the 3rd of May 1939 and did my basic training, drills and what have you, and then expected to be posted to be a rigger on aircraft but the war was imminent and when we met to be told where we were going, I was told I was going to a balloon squadron and it didn’t please me very much and but the comment from the powers that be was you’re in the Air Force now, you do as you’re told so I was posted to a balloon centre, training centre and stayed there till I passed my exams. And then I joined a squadron where 90% of the people on it were over fifty, they were auxiliaries who at night and that was their choice to be balloon operators, I wasn’t very happy but that was the situation. Finished the training, went to a cricket ground in Leyton, Essex and our billet if you like, put it that way was a tennis hut which housed twelve of us with cold water and nothing else virtually and our balloon was flown from there and I kept asking, could I transfer to aircrew but nobody wanted to know. Fortunately I played football fairly well and on one occasion when we were coming back, I spoke to one of the officers and he said, make another application straight away, so I made another application to transfer to aircrew and they sent me to a drifter on the Thames to fly balloons from a drifter on the Thames which was, again wasn’t very nice, a) it was at the mouth of the Thames and we got the incoming tide, the outcoming tide which, I wasn’t a sailor, it didn’t suit me very much, there were half a dozen airmen and half a dozen old, very old sailors, fishermen and sometimes we got the balloon up before the German fighters came, other times we didn’t and if we didn’t get it up, then we were strafed. Fortunately, I was posted back into the East End of London onto another balloon site, which had few younger people than I was used to previously and it was during the Blitz, there were all sorts of stories but they don’t want. Uhm, and then my posting came through, did I still want to go to aircrew? And I was in, a week I was in St John’s Wood with lots of other people a) who were transferred and b) who had just joined up and we were there for two or three weeks and then posted to St Andrews in Scotland, the university, and we did our training, were billeted overlooking the golf course which was nice and we did our ground training at the university, part of it, this consisted of everything, gunnery, Morse code, astro, everything, and when that was finished again as a result of football I had a leg injury and I, I wasn’t there for the passing out parade sadly but we were then posted to Manchester, which was a holding centre, and at Manchester normally you stayed for two, maybe three weeks and you were posted abroad, you were told what you were going to be, and you were posted abroad. We were told, I was told that, we were on parade, that there was going to be, that I was going to be trained as a navigator, I didn’t mind that even though I’d flown and soloed I didn’t mind that at all but there were some Belgian pilots there who had already flown against the German Air Force and they were reclassified as navigators as well, so they turned off and went down to the Belgian embassy and we never saw them anymore. But we’d been there, dozen of us had been there about getting on twelve weeks and we talked among ourselves and they designated me as the senior airman only because I’d been in the Air Force the longest, to go and see the adjutant and I did that and the adjutant said, ‘You’re not here’. I said, ‘I am here, obviously, and there are a dozen others beside me’, and he made a few enquiries and he said, ‘Right, you better go off home on leave’ and we went on leave and ‘We’ll call for you when we need you’. And about three weeks afterwards we were called back and expected to be posted abroad like everybody else but unfortunately, we were posted to Bridgnorth. And we did the remaining of our ground training at Bridgnorth. And then from Bridgnorth we went, up to this time the only aeroplane we’d seen was Tiger Moths at school in Scotland. And we went from Bridgnorth to Dumfries to do our flying training and there we were in pairs, two trainee navigators to each aeroplane, we flew on Ansons, sometimes in the morning, sometimes during the day, sometimes in the evening, that was quite an experience, and obviously we were putting into practice all that we learned on the ground. Getting near the end, when we were getting near to our examinations, people came in from that’d been trained in Canada and they’re already sporting their brevets and their stripes, commissioned, badges and so on, which didn’t please us very much, and it pleased us less when we were paired up with them to fly and they’d never flown over a darkened city, all their flying had been done over places where there were lights and they had to learn practically all over again at night-time. Anyway, we got over it and obviously satisfied the examiners and got our stripes and so on, went on leave and were posted to Chipping Warden, that’s in Oxfordshire and there we met the Wellington for the first time and met crews, pilots, air gunners, bomb aimers, all the rest of it. And you had a couple of weeks to wander about and get to know people in between lectures and then you were gathered together and you were expected to crew up there, some did, some didn’t but it was voluntary, you weren’t directed to anybody and said you’ve got to fly with him, you’ve got to fly with him, it was voluntary. And then you complete so many hours on Wellingtons, we had pilot, bomb aimer, navigator, wireless operator, rear gunner, five and then at the end of your training, if you passed satisfactory for the officer commander, we went on leave and then you got a posting to your conversion unit and when I got to the conversion unit, it was Lancasters and we were, well, I was surprised because they had radial engines, they didn’t have inline engines but that’s what we were going to fly, Lancaster IIs and the place that we were at was called Little Snoring which is a particularly peculiar name, but we did our further training on there, we picked up another gunner, mid-upper gunner and an engineer, completed the training, posted to Foulsham to join 115 Squadron and when we got to 115 Squadron, we thought 115 Squadron, but we were told, no, you’re not, you’re forming 514 so we were then into 514. We transferred, took aircraft from Foulsham, flew to Waterbeach and we were very happy at Waterbeach because it was a peace time aerodrome and all the buildings were brick, hot and cold water, bathrooms and so on and so on. So then we again, we settled as a crew and had to do all sorts of training until we were called on operations. And on squadron, we were delayed going onto operations because we had to train on a new system called Gee-H, which was navigator’s job and it was something like a television, it had two, what do you call them? Two bars going across in opposite directions and when the, the underlying one, the navigator pressed the bomb, to drop the bombs, uhm that took some time because we had to do high level and low level, we had to practice near Lincoln at high level and near Heeley [?] at low level, but again, we became proficient and that was satisfactory. Our first operation was to, and there is some doubt in here, but it’s verified in the pilot’s logbook, that we went to Biarritz, which is the north of Spain, border of Spain and France and we couldn’t quite believe how easy it was ‘cause there was supposed to be other aircraft there but we didn’t see any other aircraft and we didn’t have any opposition, there was no flak, nothing and when we got to Biarritz, circled round for a bit because we were supposed to wait for other aircraft but they didn’t come so, we bombed and came home. But when we got to the British coast and were heading for home, we were picked up by our own searchlights and directed west and each time we tried to turn and go home, they picked us up again and directed us west again and eventually we landed in Exeter, which was a Polish fighter ‘drome and as we landed, one of the engines packed up, so we were there for a few weeks, a couple of weeks and ordered home, we had a military escort home and when we got home, the rear gunner was getting off the train and somebody kindly helped him with his parachute but they held onto the silver handle and the thing blowed out. Well, we were in trouble when we got back to base, the navigation officer and the commanding officer didn’t like it all and they weren’t ready to believe our story, but eventually after enquiries they found that a Wellington had put out a mayday call and the observer corps had mistaken us for a Wellington and taken us to Exeter, so that was all sorted out. And we just went on, we did four or five to Berlin, Mannheim, Leipzig, but the logbook, I don’t know this, I did ten, the pilot and the rest of the crew did twelve, and I did one with another crew to Mannheim. And then, as I say, we went to Nuremberg, which wasn’t a very pleasant, and then Aachen was the next trip we were to do and the shortest virtually and that’s when we were shot down coming home from Aachen. The port wing was hit first, and then the port engine, port outer engine caught fire and the engineer was adamant that he could put it out but he didn’t for a few minutes and eventually the engine fell out and obviously the aircraft couldn’t fly on, so the skipper told us to abandon aircraft. I got smashed all the navigation instruments and so on, tore up the log and got to the escape hatch, found that it was open and the bomb aimer had done his job, opening the escape hatch, as I went to go through, I noticed that his parachute in the whole day had gone without his parachute he’d gone but his parachute was still there. And as the aircraft was spinning, I tried to get out but I couldn’t, I couldn’t get out with the force, and I pulled my own parachute, that pulled me out of the aircraft and in doing so, it broke, I broke my femur, as I say in the story, on the way down, the only person I wanted was my mother, pray to God that I’ll be alright. I hit the ground and I didn’t hear the aircraft anymore and shortly afterwards there were some foreign voices and I called for help and I called in English of course and they told me to be quiet and they were Belgians and they took me to a house, took me in there, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t see them, couldn’t see the house, couldn’t see what was inside it [unclear] blind, and when I woke up in the morning, there was a group around me and I could only assume they were praying ‘cause they were all voice were monotonous and they brought the doctor, and the doctor looked, he said, I’m sorry, I can’t do anything, you’ll have to go to hospital and the only hospital is a German hospital. So, they called the Germans and he put garden, took wood from the railings in the garden and put a splint on my leg and the Germans came to take me and the lady wouldn’t let them take my, take the, me without the sofa, I had to go on a sofa and this was verified by her daughter, whom I’ll talk about later who was there at the time and she said, my mother wouldn’t let them take you without the sofa. And then, I went to the German hospital, wondering what gonna be in front of me and they were very kind, first meal wasn’t very pleasant but they were very kind and they did the operation, they said, we’ve got to operate, there wasn’t much I could do about it, I couldn’t say no, and I was put, when the operation was completed, I was put into a room, a kind of pleasant room, with French doors and big open window, big frame window, and in traction, no plaster or anything like that, I was just in traction and there was guard inside and a guard outside and when I asked why they were there when I couldn’t walk, I was in traction, they said, it’s to stop the Belgians from coming in and taking you out. So, that was fine for a few weeks, quite enjoyed myself there, didn’t do anything of course, just talked to the German guards who wanted to, didn’t want to speak English, they wanted to speak, they didn’t want to speak German, they wanted to speak English, for when they came to England and they, they ruled England. And then one night I was, flares dropping round everywhere, you could see them out of the window, and within minutes the place would be being bombed and the hospital was very badly damaged. My ceiling came in, the door and the windows came across the cage, fortunately the cage stopped anything from dropping on me and in the morning the surgeon came, he was still in his apron, which was pretty bloody, and he had a scalpel in his hand and I thought, that’s the end for me, but it wasn’t, he was fully apologetic, and it wasn’t the Germans’ fault, it was the Air Force fault for bombing the place. Well, he said, obviously you’ve got to be moved, is not, your leg’s not ready yet to come out of traction so he said, I’ve got to take it off, you can’t be moved as you are, so they took it off, and the way I went in a back of a lorry and the lorry went over a bomb crater and I fell off and broke my leg again. We stopped overnight in a place that was a rest home for German forces and that was just overnight and of course again I had several people come to look at the strange fellow and then I went to Brussels and in the Brussels hospital we were in an annex and there were several aircrew in there, injured aircrew, American, Canadian, there was even one Italian, he wasn’t aircrew, and one Russian, who ill, they’d been put in there and we stayed there for about, I suppose, seven or eight weeks, I’m not sure. And then again, the British forces were coming and the German officer in command came in and said if we would sign a letter to say we’d been well treated, he would leave us there. So, obviously we signed it and the Germans left and on the morning, I’m not sure, the sixth or seventh of September, the British headed into Brussels but just before they came into Brussels, our doors burst open and the SS came in and we said, you know, we got this paper, well, not me, the commander senior officer said, we’ve got this paper and they just tore it up and said, you know, doesn’t mean a thing. And we were put into a bus and headed out of Brussels which was in a state of chaos because they were evacuating Brussels and Brussels, part of it was on fire. It wasn’t a pretty sight, and on the way out of Brussels, we were attacked by RAF fighters and the, there was a wing commander with us, and he took his life in his hand because the two old German guards were old like home guards, they wouldn’t get off the bus, so he tackled them and disarmed them and we got off the bus and went into a pigsty on the side of the road, and whilst we were there, three, three people made the attempt to escape. Now, I know that one of them survived and got back home because he was on our squadron and I know he got home but I don’t know what happened to the other two. And when it was all over, we were put back on board and taken to Holland. We arrived in Venlo and were, the bus was attacked by Dutch people who thought we were Germans and we were taken to a convent, excuse me. The, whoever was in charge put us on the top floor of this convent and when we asked the nuns why we were on the top floor, they said, well, it’s a tall building and maybe no one will notice you’re here. And we were there for three or four days and then one of the Canadian prisoners got a bit furious and he walked out onto the balcony and looking over and people saw him and waved and of course, as it happened, there was the Gestapo down at the bottom and we were quickly shipped off to Dusseldorf in Germany and Dusseldorf was a workers camp, French, Polish, Russians, Italians and we had a couple of brushes with the French people because they were taking the British Red Cross parcels and we were getting the, the rubbish, you know, the French which was not as good as the British ones and they said, well, they were entitled to it because they were working, we weren’t, as NCOs, you didn’t work, only a few volunteered to work, and we didn’t have any problems with other people, the Russians came and helped, they were glad to have a cigarette or a bite of bread or anything that we could give them ‘cause they didn’t get anything, they had to sort out for themselves, and the Germans put the Polish people on guard at the Russian compound and the Russian people on guard at the Polish compound and they weren’t bothered much about the Italians and that, that was alright until we were moved from there and the medical officer, the French medical officer asked me, would I leave my crutches and take a stick, I said, well, I can’t walk, you know, which going back, that had happened in Belgium, in Brussels, the Germans told me to walk, I said, ‘I can’t walk, I’m still in a cage’, so they gave me crutches and said, they took the cage down and said, walk, so I did my best, and the same thing happened in the French camp, they asked me to leave the crutches because they were short and would I walk with the walking stick. Well, being young and stupid I said yes, I managed alright and then we went from there in cattle trucks, yeah, I think was there, yeah, from there in cattle trucks to, no, I’m sorry, we went from Venlo to Dusseldorf in cattle trucks and the cattle truck was divided by a barb wire, sort of fence across the inside of the truck, and the German guards were on one side and eight of us were on the other side, and during the night, there was quite a commotion, one of the German guards had got too close to the fire and his uniform, his overcoat had caught fire, there wasn’t much we could do about it because there was barbed wire between us and his big moan from then on was what is the officer going to say when he arrived in Dusseldorf? Well, we don’t know ‘cause we arrived in Dusseldorf just after a bombing raid. And when we got off the train and on the busses, the people quite rightly were annoyed about the air raid and they tried to attack us but the German guards kept them in their place and we arrived at the interrogation centre where we were put into single rooms and there was no windows in my room, no heater, just a bed with a straw mattress on it and a little signal that if you wanted to go to the toilet, you pushed this signal and a guard would come and take you but we had, they tapped on Morse code between the pipes but I couldn’t read the Morse codes, too quick for me and if your neighbour banged on the wall, that meant that he was going to put his warning down that he wanted to go to the toilet and then you’d put yours down and so you kept the guard running up and down all the time. That was a couple of days there, then we went for interrogation, now we’d been warned back home about the interrogation, what would happen and what wouldn’t happen and so on and the things they told us exactly happened. You got a form [coughs], you got a form to fill in and as I say, what we’ve been told would happen did happen, we were given a form and asked to fill in all the details on the form and you wrote your number, your rank and your name and handed it back [coughs] and they warned you that you hadn’t finished and gave it to you back then and you gave it back to them and this went on a few minutes and then they appeared to get cross, which we’d been warned about really, and a hand went under the table and obviously pressed a button and there was a shot outside and again we’d been warned about that and they said, that’s what happens to the people who don’t cooperate [coughs] and they gave me the form and I gave them back 642170 and he appeared to lose his temper, he didn’t but that was his attitude and he said, ‘As it happens, we know more about your squadron than you do’, and he handed a cap down, he said, the name was inside, Stead, Sergeant Bill Stead and he said, ‘He was on your squadron, wasn’t he?’ Well, I knew damn well he was but I couldn’t say that to him. He said, and the squadron did this and the squadron did that and I just sat there. Eventually he said, ‘You’re a waste of my time, you’re a waste of everybody’s time’ and he called the guard in and I was transferred to another place a few hundred yards away and there we got new uniforms, American uniforms and a case full of good pyjamas, soap, toilet, all the rest, all the things you needed and you had to be careful what you were saying because you didn’t know whether the people in there were planted by the Germans and we’d been there two or three days, we went to our first prison camp, no, not to the first prison camp because we were, those who were injured like me went to a camp near Meiningen in Thuringia and it was an old opera house and there were, I suppose, a hundred or more people in there who’d been injured, different types of injuries and in there was that, Warrant Officer Jackson who got the VC for his efforts, he was in there at the time and you were there until such times as you were transferred to another prison camp and whilst you were there it was quite pleasant because there were concerts and meetings and outside of the camp there was a group of circus performers who practiced every day and that was quite good for us but we didn’t know how they’d evaded being in the army, we never found out and then we were transferred to a camp in Poland and this camp in Poland was fairly new, it hadn’t been open very long and we were given a block number and at the beginning there were six or seven of us in the room but after a few weeks the place had filled up and there were I think twelve in the same room, twelve bunk beds, and I say, we didn’t grumble about, we knew we were there for a while and there was a stove on one wall and in the Red Cross parcels we used to get something called Klim, was a milk spelled backwards and when the tin was empty, we used to put it on the pipe and extend the stove a little bit further and would eventually get it into the middle of the room, so everybody could get warm because of this pipe and then that’s when the Gestapo would come in and smash it all down, start again. And again we had concerts and we had education classes and so on and so on and then Christmas eve ’45, no, ’44, I was shot down ’44, Christmas Eve ’44, we were told to pack our things, we were likely to be moved, and we had a concert that night, there was a Christmas concert, and we had a priest there, we had mass as well, and in the morning, we were told to move, we had to get out, the Russians were advancing and it’s a rule of war that prisoners have got to be moved away from the battle front and so we set off and we walked, the snow was very deep, very deep indeed but we set off for Germany, we were in a place called Kreuzberg, Poland. We set off for Germany and by the time we got to the river which divides Poland and Germany, we picked up children, people had left their children, left them, thinking we’d look after them, but of course we couldn’t but we walked across the river which was frozen to a place called Oppeln and the children were moved away, I don’t know what happened to them, but from then on it was a case of walking, a few nights in a camp, walking, a few nights in a camp until we got to Lamsdorf, which was a, thousands of prisoners in there of all nationalities, thousands and the first room I was put into I wasn’t very happy, they weren’t, they weren’t clean, they weren’t, they weren’t very nice people to be with, let’s put it that way, you didn’t want to live with them after what you’d had in the other prison camps and I asked for a move and I got a move, was to a oh no, I was taken to a camp for interview by the Swedish Red Cross to see whether I was suitable for repatriation but it transpired that I wasn’t bad enough for repatriation so I moved to another camp, which was an army camp, and there were only two or three airmen there, they’d had airmen before but they’d been moved and we were sort of in with the army, we weren’t there very long and then everybody was moved and when the move was mooted, you were told to get yourselves in groups of seven or six, seven or eight, and there was a group of people there who said to me, will you join us? And I said, yes, of course, you know, I’d join anybody, they’d been prisoners since Dunkirk, so they knew the ropes and I said, yes, willingly. They said, well, the thing is, we want somebody to be quartermaster and you are obviously not one who can go and pinch things and take things for your own, so , you’ll be quartermaster and we will keep the things coming in which worked out very well. And we left there, walked down, walked through, I used to walk during the night and sleep in the woods during the day, in case find a source, walk in and think we were German troops, so we walked during the night, slept during the day and ate during the day obviously and then we got a lift on cattle trucks, about forty was in the truck, and we finished up in Prague and when we got off the truck, you were allowed off the truck to use the loo and ladies came like the WVS, German equivalent of the WVS and gave us soup, no, gave us hot water from the engine so that we could make soup and we did that but that wasn’t a good idea because the next day we were all complaining with stomach ache, the water from the engine obviously hadn’t been very clean but we got over it and this was the routine for the next few days on a truck for a while, off a truck walk and we got to Munich and when we got to Munich, there wasn’t room for us at Munich so we stayed the night and set off walking again the next day. And by this time we were in Austria and we were put into a school in Austria but not the original people I was with, about eight of us airmen and a couple of strangers and I think the second night we were there, I went out the morning ‘cause there were no guards, I said, ‘Well, where have the guards gone?’ They weren’t there, young boys actually, they had taken over from the old men, but they’d gone and I saw a lot of people going to church, I asked them, ‘Why are they going to church?’ I said, I was a Catholic and that wasn’t a feast day, as far as I knew. And they said, oh, you don’t know that the war is over. So, I went and told the others, and we walked to a nearby airfield with all the aircraft there was smashed in, they’d been destroyed by the Germans. And the Americans came through and told us to hang on they ‘d be other trucks coming through and they’d bring us food and what have you which they did and then they picked us up and took us to Reims, in France, and there we were grouped and told then aircraft would be flying back in and again with my luck the aircraft that we were going to fly back in, the navigator was missing all the night, and the people I was with, the army people said, well, you’re a navigator aren’t you, I said, ‘Yes, but the pilot might not want me’, anyway they went to the pilot and said, this fellow’s a navigator, and the pilot said, ‘How long was it since you flew?’ I said, ‘Oh, about twelve, thirteen months or so on’, he said, ‘Well, you think you can map read till we get to England?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’m sure I can’. So, they gave me the map and off we went. And we got to England and when we got to England they were in wireless contact then and we stopped at a place called, an aerodrome called Wing and there we weren’t very happy, we were taken to a tent and fumigated [laughs], we had puffers put up our sleeves and down our necks and what not and a bit humiliating but there, it had to be done and from there we went home on leave. And at the end of leave, we came back to Cosford and we stayed at Cosford to people like me who were wounded, who had recuperation. And the Japanese war ended, and I remember it well, I was in the swimming pool, and when somebody came in and said, the war in Japan is over, I got out the swimming pool got dressed and went, went to what I thought was home. But, oh, I had a pass to go home, but by a direct route, I couldn’t divert southwards, I had to go northwards and on Woolhampton station, train came in for Liverpool and the next thing I knew I was on the train for Liverpool, I thought, what am I doing here? Well, I’d left a girlfriend who lived near Liverpool but actually in my prison time, I never heard a word from anybody, father, mother, family, friends, no one, it was a bit of a joke when the post came there was nothing for me but I’d moved so many times that nobody had an address and when they wrote it was just passed on and it never caught up with me. Anyway, I got to Liverpool and I thought, well, here it goes, and I went over to my girlfriend’s house, knocked on the door, mother opened the door, she said, ‘What do you want?’ And I said, ‘I’m Eddie.’ ‘Eddie who?’ she said, ‘cause I’d lost, well, about three and a half, four stone in weight and my clothes were pretty, new uniform was pretty hopeless, it was hanging on me, and I was nearly black with the sun being out in the weather all the time and she said, ‘You’d better come in then’, ‘cause she didn’t remember who I was. At roundabout half past five the door opened, Nora came in, looked across the room, saw me and went out again and it transpired it, she had a date for that night but she called to her friend’s to cancel the date and from then on we were together and we married in the September of ’45. And, well, we stayed married for seventy years. And then I was discharged from the Air Force because I wanted to fly and they had so many fliers they didn’t want people who’d been injured, so, they had enough fliers. So I took discharge and went to a special unit where you worked out what you’re going to do afterwards and I made the suggestion that I’d like to be in education but again it came up the question you haven’t got university qualifications and you haven’t been to a training college and so on and so on, however I got over all that, and the education officer said, ‘Why don’t you go a step higher and try for teaching?’ I said, well, you know, as has happened in the past, ‘I might qualify for teaching’, he said, ‘If you’re qualified as a navigator, you’re qualified for teaching’. So, I had a test and passed the test, and I went to a teacher training college, they wanted me to go to, the one year, but I wanted to do a two year and I, I became a teacher. And eventually I spent a couple of terms in the Wirral, near Liverpool and then I came to Worksop taught fifteen year old, fourteen, fifteen, it was the first year I had children had to stay until they were fifteen and I had the first class in this particular school, fourteen, fifteens, they’d all, they weren’t, I’m not being unkind, the majority of them weren’t clever, they hadn’t passed the eleven plus, they hadn’t passed the thirteen plus, but some of them were quite bright, anyway that’s beside the point, and I stayed there for ten years. And then we talked it over and Nora had a good job, we talked it over and it was become quite obvious that I was going to get any further in a secondary school, I was in an all age school, so I decided to transfer to primary school, and we moved to Bishops Stortford in Hertfordshire and I was deputy head there for, I think 1967, ten years, and then I got a headship in Derbyshire, [unclear], and I was head there until 1984, then I retired. Came here. And that’s the story so far. Well, I eventually got in touch with what’s the squadron association and began going to the reunions and I had the wife of the commanding officer wanted to start a museum and she asked all of us who were there and at that time there’d be about eighty, ninety ex-squadron members there, if they had anything that would start the museum and I asked, I said, ‘I haven’t got anything really but I’ve got my prisoner of war identity card, would that be of any use?’ ‘Oh yes’, she said, ‘Let me have it. So, I did. And I suppose a couple of years afterwards, I got a phone call, ‘Please don’t put the phone down, I’m not a double glazing salesman, my name is Clive, you might remember my uncle, Clive Hill.’ I said, ‘I remember him very well, he was my engineer.’ ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Well, can we start from there? My mother has been ill and they have told her that her illness was due to worry about not doing anything about finding what happened to her brother.’ Rightly or wrongly, that’s what they’d said, and he said, ‘I’ve taken over and the Ministry of Defence wouldn’t give me any information about anybody but my uncle, they wouldn’t let me have your information. But I’ve talked to the secretary of the association, squadron association and he has given me your address and phone number, can I talk to you?’ And I said, ‘Yes, of course.’ And she’d gone down to Waterbeach to the museum, to try and find out something about his uncle and he’d given up and as he walked through the door, coming out, he saw this card on the wall and eleventh of April ’44 and he said, that was the night my uncle was shot down. And there was only one aircraft shot down. So, you must be the survivor, he said, I had an inkling there was a survivor, because there’s only six people buried. And, well, from then on, we kept in contact and the then secretary of the association was ill and he wanted to give up and Clive took over and all the information was dumped on his doorstep and he’s been the secretary ever since and he does a fantastic job and of course we’ve kept in touch as families, we’ve been away together, we went to Belgium together, to put the monument up, he went to Belgium to find the spot and as he was looking round, the farmer came up and said, you know, are you from the police, are you looking for somebody? He told him why he was there and of course things blossomed and they gave us the plot to put the memorial on. And we were entertained for the weekend by the local council.
SP: Did you ever meet anyone from the farm after the war?
EH: Oh yes
SP: Who had taken you in?
EH: Yes, the wife of the farmer came to the last reunion and was delighted and so were we. And I met the sister of the family that took me in, but she died. We stayed with her overnight at the time we were putting the monument together, but her brother had died and her parents had died, she was the sole survivor. And we’re still in touch, Clive he, if he can’t arrange a pickup for me on squadron association reunions, then he comes himself, comes from Castle Bromwich, picks me up and takes me and then brings me back again, which is a long journey. So, we are looking forward to next year, which would be the seventy-fifth anniversary of the squadron forming, so hopefully we get there. I think that’s about everything.
SP: Okay, Eddie, well.
EH: I can remember as I’ve been helpful or not.
SP: That’s been very detailed, so thank you very much for your time on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. It’s been an
EH: Oh, thank you for putting up with it
SP: Excellent story, lots of details. Thank you very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Eddie Humes
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AHumesEL170826, PHumesEL1701
Format
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00:54:55 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Cambridgeshire
Belgium
Belgium--Brussels
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Thuringia
Poland
Poland--Łambinowice
Description
An account of the resource
Eddie Humes flew as a navigator on Lancasters with 514 Squadron during the war. He chose to join the RAF in May 1939 instead of going to work in the mines. He was initially expected to be posted as a rigger on aircraft but was then sent to a balloon training centre, which didn’t please him very much. After finishing training, he applied for transfer to aircrew, but was posted to a balloon drifter on the Thames and from there, to the East End in London. Then his posting to aircrew came through and so he transferred to St John’s Wood for aircrew training and then to St Andrews and to Manchester, where he trained to be a navigator. Was then posted to RAF Chipping Warden on Wellingtons, RAF Little Snoring and to RAF Waterbeach on 514 Squadron. Remembers his first operation to Biarritz. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when they were shot down in 1944 over Belgium, on the way back home from Aachen, when the port wing was hit. Six members of the crew died in the crash, leaving him the sole survivor, breaking his leg in the landing. He was taken by a Belgian family but, because of his severe injuries, he was handed over to the Germans, who brought him to hospital, where he underwent surgery and spent a long period of convalescence. He then spent the rest of the war being moved from camp to camp, in Belgium, Germany and Poland and was then forced to march hundreds of miles from Poland to Austria, from where he was sent to France and repatriated. After the war, he went into teaching and ended up as a deputy head, until his retirement. He joined the squadron association and together with the association’s secretary, his engineer’s nephew, he went to Belgium to build a memorial to his lost crew.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1944
1945
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Gee
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Dumfries
RAF Little Snoring
RAF Waterbeach
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 8B
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/PFranklinRH1801.2.jpg
ed993c40dd54fbc164c33bd99d02f6c3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/AFranklinRH180615.2.mp3
0f8222ecc090f5fb6357f096dac99466
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Richard
R Franklin
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Richard Franklin (b. 1923, 1319873, 178702 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a wireless operator / air gunner and later retrained as a navigator.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Franklin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Franklin, RH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SW: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Walters, the interviewee is Richard Franklin. The interview is taking place at Mr Franklin’s home in Cople, Bedfordshire, on Friday the 15th of July 2018.
RF: I’m quite happy to do this interview and to tell Sue my life in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command. I knew, when the war broke out, that I would have to go into the services one way or another because I was still, I wasn’t in a reserved occupation, I lived on the farm but I wasn’t actually working on the farm and after the men who, some of the men who worked on the farm teased [?] me about life, what life would be like in the army, if I joined the army, they had served in the First World War, in the trenches and it was horrifying to hear them. So, I decided there and then that no way if I could possibly help it would I go in the army. I didn’t want to go in the navy because I, I’m no sailor and I got see sick when I went on an outing with school down to Poole Harbour. So when the recruiting office opened in Bedford, for the RAF, I went along and I volunteered to join the RAF as aircrew. And from then on my life was taken over by the RAF and I have no regret whatsoever. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends in Bomber Command lost their lives but I was one of the fortunate ones, I survived the war without any undue injuries and then I was so enjoying life in the RAF after the war, when I was travelling out to the Far and the Middle East that I signed on for a further five years and I would’ve signed on for until I was pensionable age, entitled to a RAF pension, had not a tragedy in my family persuaded me to go back home and join the family on the farm. Which is what I did and I’ve been since 1954, which is when I left the RAF, I’ve been a farmer in the village of Cople on a farm, that my father, my grandfather rather took on in 1901. I, my father took the farm, I took it on from him. I have now retired and my son is running the farm and that is the story of my life [laughs]. I did 34, I think it was 34, 44, 34 raids over Germany. 30 was the number of raids you do and then you were what they called “tour expired”, that meant you were finished flying on raids for the time being and I did my 30 and apart from one raid, when we got shot up by a German fighter and were in dire straits, we could’ve crashed into the English Channel or crashed because of the damage to the aircraft and the fact that we couldn’t get the wheels down, the undercarriage down to land but fortunately we had a very good pilot and a very good flight engineer and they got us safely back to England and nobody, nobody in the crew was in anyway harmed at all but I was one, I was the fortunate member of my squadron who survived a whole tour and was happy to stay in the Air Force for the time, for, till after the war. We had bombed Frankfurt and had left, dropped our bombs on the markers that were marking the target and had left the target area and the gunners were relaxing and we were on our way home and all of a sudden there was this God almighty explosion and the starboard outer engine caught fire and a night fighter had come up and they had guns that came up and fired on the underneath of the aircraft and it set the starboard outer engine on fire and fortunately the flight engineer and the pilot between them managed to extinguish the flames and feather the engine and we was, managed to get home on three engines but the fuel tank on the starboard side had been ruptured and we were desperately short of fuel, we knew that and we knew that we stood a very good chance of coming down in the Channel so we all put our Mae West on ready to abandon aircraft if we did but I was in, the fact that I was the wireless operator, I was in touch with the rescue services all the while home, they kept passing frequency beams onto us so they knew where we were. The air sea rescue were alerted but we made it back and then we were told to go to an aerodrome Lakenheath, near Cambridge, where they had sufficient fire tenders and rescue appliances to rescue us if we crashed. We couldn’t get the undercarriage down, so we had to land on the grass, on the side of the runway, fortunately it was a smooth landing and we all climbed out unharmed and that was it, that was the only near go to being killed that I had in the whole time I was in the RAF.
SW: Off you go.
RF: We were met by the station commander, the Group Captain, when we climbed out of the aircraft, and set down and he shook us all by the hand, and said: ‘Well done, chaps, go to the mess and have a good meal and I will see you in the morning’. Which we did. And we were issued with the railway warrants and with our flying gear and all that, with our parachutes, which we had to take with us, we tracked all our way back to Leeming, in Yorkshire, to our airbase, yeah. The one feature of that episode that I have always felt sorry for was the fact, that the flight engineer, who was engaged to a lady who was pregnant, decided that no more would he fly on operations and he went to the Squadron commander when we got back to our base at Leeming and said he was not going to fly anymore and that immediately court martial offence, he was told, you are going LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, you volunteered to do it when you joined the RAF, you’ll be placed under arrest. He was placed into the guard room and that’s the last we saw of him. Until many years later, when I was serving in Transport Command, I met him out in a place called Sharjah, in the Persian Gulf. I was on my way to India and that was a terrible place, it had no facilities and he was, came up to me and said: ‘Hello, Sir’. I said: ‘Who are you?’ and he introduced, I knew straight away who he was and I said: ‘What an earth are you doing here?’ And he said that he had been reduced to the ranks and sent out here as an AC2 to clean aircraft toilets and clean aircraft out as they ferried through and that was his punishment. It was because of him and the pilot that we got back to UK from this bombing raid safely and in one piece and that was the way he was treated. Simply because his future wife had persuaded him not to risk his life again. And one of the reasons I was quite happy to go to the Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln, because I was told that the names of all the people who were killed or missing were inscribed on the plaques in this memorial and the lady in the desk behind the reception just asked me for this fellow’s name. All I could give her was his name and his address, his home address and she found his name and his permanent address and she gave me a leaflet, telling me on which panel his name was inscribed and also a leaflet which told me when he had been killed, the night he perished along with all his crew and where he is buried and I know now that he is buried in a grave on the outskirts of Berlin along with his six other crewmates. 34 raids as a sergeant. I ended up as a flight sergeant at the end of the raid and then I went into Transport Command, I did a navigation course and I became a Flight Lieutenant, I was commissioned and went to became a Flight Lieutenant and I left the RAF in 1954. I’ve got three logbooks but they’re not all, uhm. These are the ones, that’s, that’s the second raid I went on, that’ll be to Düsseldorf and that’ll be, that was the third one with Berlin and then Frankfurt and Stuttgart and so on. We had to [unclear], then Leipzig, then Frankfurt again, that’s when we got shot up, then Berlin on again, another on Berlin again, Stuttgart there, Frankfurt again, Frankfurt twice in three, twice in three and once on the 18th and again on the 22nd. And Berlin again, then Essen and then this is prior to the second front opening, we were bombing in France, gun emplacements, Villeneuve, Le Bourget, Lens, Düsseldorf again, Karlsruhe, Villeneuve again, Gent, Bloen [?], Louvain, [unclear], Aachen, Bourg Leopold, operation [unclear], and my last, that’s it, my last operation was Arras, that was my thirtieth bombing raid and the second, the second front on the 5th of June we were bombing in Merville, France gun emplacements [?] and that’s when the second front opened. So, that’s and after that I went, I was what they called screened and I became an instructor at Stratford. When I finished my training as a wireless operator, I was posted to 427 Squadron which was an all Canadian Squadron in 6 Group based up on Yorkshire and they were, their standard of discipline was far more lenient and lax, than would have been if I had been on an RAF station and I quite enjoyed my time with the Canadians.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Franklin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sue Walters
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFranklinRH180615, PFranklinRH1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:16 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Franklin served as a wireless operator and flew 34 operations in Bomber Command over Germany. Describes the only operation on which he risked being killed, when his aircraft was attacked by a German night fighter over Frankfurt. Tells of their flight engineer being accused of Lack of Moral Fibre. Mentions bombing various targets in preparation for the opening of the second front in France. Was posted to 427 Squadron.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
aircrew
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
forced landing
lack of moral fibre
memorial
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Leeming
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/695/10098/ABarrickMJT161115.2.mp3
f7c1fe9a061922f7ac78869532f1ef46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barrick, Maurice James Trimigham
M J T Barrick
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice Barrick (b.1925, 1592191 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 467 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barrick, MJT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Johnstone. The interviewee is Maurice Barrick. The interview is taking place at Mr. Barrick’s home in Immingham, North East Lincolnshire, on Tuesday, 15th of November 2016.
MB: Well, good afternoon. Yes, you want to know when I started in the Air Force? My service number was 1592191 which indicated that I was tested for aircrew duties at Doncaster I was [unclear] Doncaster, I was [unclear] who was [unclear] were interviewed at Doncaster so I was the 191st person to be accepted in the Air Force from Lincoln. I served on several stations, got deferred leave for a start actually because I was too young to start training so a leave was granted for me until I reached a certain age then that age arrived and I was posted first of all to, yes [unclear] started my service life at 7 air gunner school which was at Stormy Down in Wales, my initial training was started on the 7th of June 1944, a little bit late in the war years but nevertheless I managed to get on the [unclear] as an air gunnery school during that period, my next station was, [pause] the pilots of these bases were time expired airmen to see that operational duties and now in July of 1944 and they’d taken up to training young sprogs like me, my next station was 16 OTU which was at Stormy Down, Upper Heyford and I spent the next few weeks there at Upper Heyford, we, I went from Upper Heyford to,[pause] posted to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit which was at Winthorpe which is now at the moment the site for the North Lincolnshire Show as various other things, Winthorpe was a small village just outside Lincoln and it was from that station that the crew went one day and we had a group photograph taken. The next stage was the, to join 5 Lancaster finishing school, at that date we had to do a few weeks in the Lancaster finishing school which was at Syerston later got out because Syerston became a Heavy Conversion Unit and then I didn’t do many operational flights, I joined 467 Squadron in March 1945 and that was at Waddington and the, my stay there wasn’t a very long one, I did operational flying, managed to get one or two operations in and was thankful that I did, I was straining at the leash to get, to get operational so that at least I could get in before the war finished, I had a bit of freedom at one time that the war was finished before I got on the squadron and that would never have done, so I went to the Heavy Conversion Unit which was, which is now the site for North Lincolnshire Show and one or two other activities, I was posted from there to Bomber Command proper which was at Waddington.
SJ: Which squadron was that?
MB: 467 Squadron at Waddington.
SJ: What was your flying time like?
MB: Not all that good, three hundred hours flying time and that was it but.
SJ: What was your role on the aircrew?
MB: I was air gunner, mid-upper gunner and I enjoyed my life on the squadron, it was a bit dodgy at times but we managed to pull through, they managed to, I, only get four operational flights then, we were used, our squadron was used to ferry British prisoners of war home from Germany, twenty nine at a time, and I did two trips with twenty-four, twenty-four young soldiers or sailors who had been prisoners of war [unclear] one cargo back to wing, wing and one cargo back to, oh, I forget the name of the thing now, such a long while ago you know
SJ: Yeah.
MB: It’s, trying to retrieve these memories is not an easy thing, and of course with it being a long time ago I got older!
SJ: You’ve done a lot since as well.
MB: Well, yeah, I’ve been, I’ve had a very good life, I look back at some of the things that I’ve done, and I don’t regret any of them.
SJ: Good.
MB: Including a magistrate and various other clerk of the council and that sort of thing but I retired at sixty five and I’ve enjoyed life since. I don’t know, [unclear] get anymore from this, perhaps we clean those while we [unclear] we had a crash on the first April 1945 there was a fatal air crash at Walsham Wolds, the home of 103 Squadron.
SJ: Elsham Wolds.
MB: Pardon?
SJ: Elsham Wolds.
MB: Elsham Wolds, yeah. And I wasn’t stationed at Elsham Wolds but we all went across to give any assistance that we could.
SJ: What brought you to Elsham Wolds that time then?
MB: I think it was this fatal crash on 1st of August 1942, when the crash happened at Elsham Wolds, the home of 103 Squadron, Black Swan squadron in other words [sighs].
SJ: What did you think of Bomber Command and what they were doing?
MB: I enjoyed it and I thought they did a good job and I get a little bit annoyed when people criticize Harris for not attending various functions but I think he was a good skipper, a good man in charge and I [unclear] bomb aimer.
SJ: Can you say a bit more about your training?
MB: Yeah.
SJ: And why you wanted to join the RAF?
MB: I’d always wanted to serve in the Royal Air Force right from the very first start, I was tested at Doncaster hence my initial number 159, was 21, 2191, [unclear] to be accepted I had to be trained at Elsham Wolds
SJ: Then you had to wait till when you were eighteen?
MB: Well yes, my only snag was I was too young to go on operational flying straight away and I was put on deferred service, in other words wait until you are a bit older son and you can come along and join us which was about in March I think deferred service and eventually I managed to get into the Air Force and we get cracking.
SJ: So, you were a local lad from the area?
MB: Yes, there was no advantage actually but I was local lad of course, was, I was a little bit sad to leave, my number of discharge was something like fifty-one or fifty-two, which was fairly late maybe because I didn’t have much service, actual service with the squadron but nevertheless I managed to get in six operational flights to Germany and enjoy the role.
SJ: What did you do when you left?
MB: When I left the Air Force I went back to where I was joining the Air Force, I was an errand boy at, for Percy Giles at Goxhill, I served, finished my time with him and then from then I went to
Other: [unclear]
MB: [unclear] How did you know that? I went to work on the railway, I was a porter at Goxhill station and eventually, I don’t know that the wages of firemen was greater, much greater than those of porters and so I applied for, I was, I got a transfer to the local [unclear] depot at Immingham where I completed my apprenticeship, it’s very difficult.
SJ: It’s, yeah, so how did they come to dedicate the library in the Immingham museum to you?
MB: Well, I, when I was in civvy street I became a councillor on the Immingham town council and during that time we dedicated a particular part of a building to a museum for the Royal Air Force of course. It was, yeah, several weeks our old crew [unclear] training and the Royal Air Force I’ve always thought the Royal Air Force was really the bee’s knees and any books on, I’ve sort of collected any book I could on the Royal Air Force
SJ: You’ve done quite a bit of research, haven’t you?
MB: I’ve done a little quite a bit, I’d say a small amount, that’s, these are the crew, there’s a bigger picture somewhere on the wall
SJ: Yeah, I’m gonna take a picture of that.
MB: As a crew.
SJ: Can you tell me any funny stories about your crew?
MB: No, we worked very well together we didn’t go out to sort of pull any punches and after the war POP Peter was used to ferry prisoners of war back, twenty-nine at a time, we [unclear] to the aircraft flying back to England
SJ: I bet that was quite rewarding helping the POWs come back
MB: It was indeed very satisfying and I was, I regret I was only on two operations in ferrying people back but it was a service and had to be performed of course and you don’t ask questions in the Air Force, they tell you what to do and you get on with it. And the aircraft we flew in more than any other was P.O.P. Peter and popping all the words and there is some, If you want to take copies of these you may.
SJ: Did you attend many reunions after you left?
MB: No, I didn’t actually, I don’t think I went to any.
SJ: No?
MB: I don’t think so, you tend to think see yourself that’s it, that’s my lot, I’ve done it and that’s the end.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Barrick
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sue Johnstone
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABarrickMJT161115
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:21:11 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Barrick had always wanted to serve in the Royal Air Force. Upon completion of training, he was posted to Bomber Command 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. He did four operational flights and two trips flying British prisoners of war from Germany. Maurice also remembers a fatal crash at RAF Elsham Wolds. He enjoyed his life in Bomber Command - on being demobbed Maurice went to work as a fireman with the railway.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
16 OTU
1661 HCU
467 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
crash
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Waddington
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1079/11537/APopikaR180806.1.mp3
a31c72321680486a97fccbb762c58367
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Popika, Ruta
R Popika
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ruta Popika (b. 1928). She was born in Lithuania with dual German nationality. She lived through the Russian occupation and emigrated to Germany during the war before making her way to England in 1947.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Popika, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SC: So, this is Steve Cooke uhm, interviewing Mrs Ruta Popika for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. We're at Chaddesden, Derby and the time is 10.45 on the 6th of August 2018. So Ruta if I can ask you to start telling us your memories from that early time and just tell me everything that you want to tell me.
RP: Now the memories really start I think from, I was born in what then was Lithuania the, on the banks of the river Nemunas. Now the river Nemunas is the major river between what then was Germany and Lithuania and it starts in Russia somewhere, I never remember where it starts and it goes into the Curonian, they call it now I think the Curonian Bay or something
SC: Aha
RP: Anyway I lived, we lived there until I was seven. My father's work was customs officer and he did that all the time we were in Lithuania and from there we sort of, it's a long story, we were all born, there were six children, at that time we were only five children when we left there. From there we moved to several places and the first place we went to was Nida and that is on the Curonian Spit, I think they call it now and it's an absolutely gorgeous place, it's on a peninsula that starts from what is Russia now but then was Germany, half of it was German half of it was Lithuanian. So since my father was a customs officer we always lived on the border. We stayed there for three years and we moved to a place called Panemune, now that is again on the river Nemunas and on the other side of the river was a town called Tilsit in German, Tilze in Lithuanian and I can't remember what it is in Russian now, they've changed it completely and we lived there for a couple of years until Hitler started being a little bit greedy, I think, he wanted to take Poland so he said to Stalin now if you don't mind us occupying Poland you can have Lithuania, not Lithuania but the Baltic states and just overnight. First of all Hitler, Hitler also wanted a part of Lithuania minor that is where we lived. This was actually before I think I don't suppose we can go back
SC: Okay it's okay, you come back
RP: It is, that is, what happened first of all when we lived in Panemune, the Germans decided they wanted to have that part of Lithuania, Lithuania minor, so they just moved in overnight and we just saw our father disappear. And what had happened is: because he was a customs officer he had to move straight away to the new border which was now Lithuania and Germany it became, so of course a few days later he sent for the family and we all moved, he had to find somewhere for us to live there so we all moved to Lithuania major and we lived there until the war started actually. shortly and before the war that was when the Russians decided, decided they wanted access to the Baltic sea and they, they just marched in and took it all because the three Baltic states were not prepared for a war or anything like that, which is whether there was any, what happened politically I don't know. And uhm all at once we were under the Russians and the Lithuanian no longer, our ruler was, the president was Smetona at that time, I can't really remember what happened but he I think he'd gone, he left because he must have known that something was happening. We lived there under the Russians which meant we had to go to uhm we, had to learn Russian at school, so I learned some Russian for a while but then the Russians started deporting a lot of Lithuanians into Siberia and with the sort of job my father had, we would have been in line for it as well. So at that time then anybody, any of the Lith, Germans living in Lithuania and because we were born in a part that had gone from Lithuania to Germany and it sort of altered even the French had occupied it at one time years ago, many years ago
SC: Yeah
RP: And the Germans said we want the Germans to come out of Lithuania and into Germany so with my father having six children, six children by then, they felt it would be much safer for us to be in Germany so we registered as Germans because we were entitled, we could do that because that part of where we were born we could be either
SC: Yeah
RP: So we emigrated into Germany and when the war started and the Russians were moved out of Rus, out of the Baltic states and as you know the, the Germans went a lot further than just through the Lithu, through the Baltic states then after, because in Germany we were in a sort of a transit camp, spent a lot of my years in camps
SC: Yeah
RP: Because my father had bought a farm in the way when the Russians came and he had to move away from the border, he bought a farm so we could go back when the Germans chased the Russians out, they sent us back to Lithuania. But they sent us back then as Germans so when the war started actually, no it hadn't started but when the war started going badly for the Russians and the Russians of, badly for the Germans not the Russians and the Russians were sort of oppressing the Germans and the Ger, they were winning over the Germans because the Germans they’d spread themselves a little bit too, too wide
SC: Yeah
RP: And they started losing so of course as the Russians were coming nearer, we felt it was, well my parents felt it was safer for them to pack everything up and move into Germany
SC: Yeah
RP: And we were in a wagon and we travelled in, stopped in several places where we could sort of stay for a few nights. We stayed in Poland in one place for a few months I think even
SC: Yeah
RP: And I can remember while we were there, this is something that I seem to keep on remembering, and there were Jews there in a camp and I know a lot of people went to have a look they were hanging, they were hanging 10 Jews. I don't know what they were supposed to have done but if one did something, they just would hang them
SC: Yeah
RP: But no way would I go so, so many people went to watch it and I thought no. I was, what was I at that age? About 4, 13, 14 I think, maybe a little bit older but I just couldn't do that
SC: Yeah
RP: And from, when the, as the Russians, as you know the Russians kept coming further and further so we kept fleeing further and further from the Russians all the time because we knew what our fate would be if the Russians overtook us, we end up in Siberia. So we gradually moved from one place to another place every time the Russians came nearer and we settled in one place when the war started getting, the Russians and English, they were getting closer to each other and where we were, on one side the Russians were about thirty kilometres, the Americans and English or English and Americans were about five kilometres, so we thought well we are safer to stay where we are because they are nearer. But now this, the English stayed there and allowed the Russians to move on
SC: Yeah
RP: So we were overtaken by the Russians again. Now as far as any, the war itself, the bombardment and that, we avoided most of that because we were always in villages somewhere you could hear bombardment going in the distance, but never sort of very close. So of course, once the Russians and the English and Americans got together, we were under the Russians. So we, my father still, I don't know how it happened that he'd still got a wagon and horses and our belongings, we didn't have that many belongings by then because how much can you, you've got six children and
SC: Yeah
RP: So I don't think we had any furniture but we had clothes and whatever we needed mostly
SC: Yeah
RP: Uh we dec, my father decided that we can't stay under the Russians so we started to travel a bit walked a lot and the wagon, not very far but until we came, we stayed overnight underneath the wagon sleeping there and the Russia, there are some Russian soldiers came there and my father could speak Russian and he sort of started saying we are trying to find our way back to Lithuania, well we were not, we were trying to go the other way
SC: Yeah
RP: And fortunately they believed us, but what was happening a lot at that time as the Russian soldiers were raping women left, right, left, right and centre and my sister and myself we were sleeping under the wagon and they started sort of looking around and the man in charge says, leave them alone they're Lithuanians. So, once they left instead of going, they told us which way to go, well we knew which, which way Russia was. Uhm we went the other way and there was a field there which I think there were American soldiers there and I’d already, I went to grammar school and I had learned some English so my mother said to me go and talk to them. I couldn't speak a lot, but I could speak a bit of English and they let us go in, they let us through the border and that is of course how we got to be on the English side then. How my, my, how my parents arranged all these I don't know, it's really when I think about it I can't imagine how they coped, they found somewhere for us to live they, they found food when we could but while, I found while we were fleeing from the Russians there was this one place where we stayed there were some German women there. Well, we went through Germany that time and there were women there baking bread night and day so that all, because there was a line of nothing but wagons refugees and they were baking night and day to give to the people who were fleeing from the Russians instead of them fleeing from them. They just stayed there and baked, and we found, well, the Germans they were very good to us. I can't, can't say anything really bad but the only thing that they did is they kept my uhm, first of all they kept my oldest brother because he was 16 they took him in the army whether they liked it or not then when we were fleeing from Lithuania, they had stopped my father and my second brother but because my father had got rheumatism they allowed him to go but they kept my other brother and we've never seen them since
SC: Gosh!
RP: So once we were in the British zone they were just my father and mother, my sister, myself and my youngest brother. Yes, only my youngest brother, the other one had, the second youngest he had been killed by a, in a road accident by a bus. It was about a bus going about every week I think but he was killed by one of them
SC: Gosh!
RP: Because they were, they were hanging on to a wagon, you know how children do, they hang on
SC: Yeah
RP: And he jump, one jumped towards the ditch and my brother jumped the other way and there just happened to be a bus coming
SC: Gosh!
RP: On an empty road there's a bus coming. Anyway, this is why we sort of, our family we were just my youngest brother, my sister, myself, my father and and myself. And once we were on the British zone then, uhm this is something we were sort of in account, we kept on sleeping wherever there was any uhm space and this one night I know we were sleeping in a school room with straw, used to be straw just covered up with blankets and we slept there and some American soldiers came in and they were as bad as the Russians raping women and they raped several women there and one of them came up to me that age I don't know whether I was 15 yet, I was about 15. But I started talking in a little bit in English, all at once I became human to him and you know he, we just stood there and talked until some military policemen came in and he just jumped out through the window but he had not, if I hadn't been able to speak English it would have been the most traumatic thing for me
SC: Yeah
RP: I mean at that age
SC: Yeah
RP: And from there on we, oh we were overrun by the Russians again. Because the English and the, well the Allies really, they allowed the Russians to go further so we were under the Russians again and from there we said we got relatives, we got an address in West Germany that we wanted to go there and we were allowed through we had to go on to delousing and all sorts of things but eventually we ended up in a camp not very far from Hamburg. From there I went to a school, there was a Lithuanian grammar school that had opened so I’d rather had to go through Hamburg to the Lithuanian school. During the holidays they started recruiting people to work in England, first just in England my sister came to England then to work in a hospital. Then the following year they were recruiting again, I was too young at that time to go anywhere I was also at school, but the following year they recruited people who wanted to go to Australia, America, England and this, the grammar school I was on we were I think five pupils and everybody was at that age, the men they were about 32 then and I was about 17, 18. And a lot of them were going abroad, the teachers were leaving so the school was closing and I decided I was just old enough, I was 18 by then I’d come to England to work for one year, stretched a bit and that was in 1947
SC: Gosh!
RP: And of course, since then I’ve settled here, got married, married a Lithuanian
SC: Yep
RP: Brought up two children, got a granddaughter
SC: Ah, yeah
RP: And I’ve got, I’m happy here. Sometimes people say, would you like to go back to live in Lithuania? I’ve always said no because my family by then I was married, when Lithuania became independent, my husband had already died by the time Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes
RP: He would have loved to know it to be
SC: Cause that wasn't until 1990
RP: 93
SC: 93
RP: yes
SC: Yeah
RP: 92-93, yes
SC: Yeah
RP: And I know I went as soon as Lithuania became independent, I decided I’d love to meet my in-laws because my husband had got three sisters in Lithuania. His sis and all them, there were three brothers and three sisters and the brothers got away, the sisters were overrun by the Russians. So they were there and I wanted to meet them. So I went to Lithuania but it's just a pity my husband,
SC: Yeah
RP: Couldn't live to see that
SC: Yes
RP: Because my husband died in ‘86.
SC: Yeah, gosh!
RP: So I mean, several years after he died Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes. What about your father?
RP: Oh, my father stayed, my mother died, she, they both stayed in a camp in Hamburg
SC: Yeah
RP: And they spent their life in in a camp because they got nowhere that they were I think getting a little bit too old to work, no they weren't really because my mother was 53 when she died. She got cancer
SC: Yes
RP: We wanted them to come to England and they were in a transit camp actually to come to England and it was discovered that my mother got cancer
SC: Yes, you said
RP: And they wouldn't let them in and she eventually died in hospital there and my father he stayed in a, I think the camps would have had reduced to but it was still in sort of camp conditions until he died, he died 75
SC: Gosh! So, he was there all of that time?
RP: Yes, and my father was nine years older than my mother, so you'd have to work it out
SC: Yeah, yeah
RP: And I’ve settled in England and I’ve got a family
SC: Yeah. But from really quite an early age you were travelling
RP: Yes
SC: All the time
RP: From really I was, where I was born on the banks of the river, oh, that was beautiful for children that was ideal because the house was on the banks
SC: Yeah
RP: And we used to just go down the, down to the river and play and used to be steamships going past with passengers and used to wave to them. I had a lovely childhood there and then even when we went to Nida which still is the border town now between Germany, between Russia and Lithuania and there used to be a lot of holiday makers coming there because this was a lovely holiday resort. But from the age of seven, three years in Nida, then we got to Panemune and then we were there only about six months when the Germans decided they wanted it, we fled into Lithuania and that is
SC: Yeah
RP: Never sort of had settled life till I came to England.
SC: Yes
RP: And then I lived in the hospital for one year, one and a half years I think at the isolate, was the Isolation hospital then and turned to the Derwent Hospital then I worked at the Manor Hospital as in nursing there
SC: Yeah
RP: And worked at the co-op, got married [laughs] and that is how life carried on
SC: Yeah. Well, that's wonderful, thank you so much. I’ll pause this now for a moment.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ruta Popika
Creator
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Steve Cooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APopikaR180806
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:25:18 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Lithuania
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1945
1947
Description
An account of the resource
Ruta Popika was born near the river Nemunas, in what was Lithuania before the war. She remembers her family being forced to move eastwards and westwards from Lithuania according to the changing tides of war. Remembers the occupation of the Baltic States by the Russians. Mentions various episodes of her life as a refugee: German women baking bread and handing it out to the refugees fleeing from the Russians; the hanging of Jews; Russian soldiers raping women and being spared because she was Lithuanian. Tells of her 16-year-old brother being taken into the army by the Germans. Tells of American soldiers raping women and being spared because she spoke English. She spent many years in a German transit camp and then moved to Hamburg, where she attended a Lithuanian grammar school. Her parents spent the rest of their lives in German transit camps. Explains how she never had a settled life before she moved to England for work in 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
displaced person
evacuation
Holocaust
home front
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1037/11409/AMorrisM150720.2.mp3
042adcb94e32f04a3e4e4706c07f4b52
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Morris, Malcolm Francis
M F Morris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Malcom Morris (b. 1940, 1931621 Royal Air Force). He served as ground personnel post war as an armourer at RAF Waterbeach and then in Aden.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Morris, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SB: This is Sheila Bibb interviewing Malcolm Morris at Cliffe in Kent on the 20th of July, I think it’s the 20th and I’m going to ask a few basic questions and then we will get into a little bit more detail. So, Mal, can you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself, where you were born, your family, anything like that.
MM: I was born, as I say, in Herefordshire, in a place called Lower Bearwood near the village of Pembridge. My, I was a single child and an actual fact, I was rather late one cause my mother was forty when I was born and I was an only child at the beginning of the war 26th of July 1940. We were basically in a farming area although my father worked for the Herefordshire County Council driving rollers, road rollers, he was actually, he was called up during the first world war and went to the King’s Shropshire Light Infantry but never went to the trenches which is probably why I’m here basically and in the Second World War of course he was too old for start and also it was a reserved occupation mending the roads. He could’ve had a farm, his father’s farm but he didn’t want it so that went from, it was not a big place, just a small [unclear] so that went away from us as such. I attended school at the local church school followed by the secondary school cause I failed the eleven plus miserably so basically as I say, I was secondary school failed. The sergeant prompted me to apply to join up, and I found I could apply as a boy entrant at fifteen just as I left school, which I did, I went to RAF Cosford for the inauguration to see if I was fit, if you might say, which was quite an easy day as far as I was concerned, I was surprised I passed it, basically it was put square rolls in round pegs and things like that and I was told, yes you can join up and go down where you want, go down to St Athans in a month or so’s time, which is what happened. I spent eighteen months at St Athans being trained as an armament mechanic then, up to senior aircraftsman standard, which I passed out as but being still young I stayed as a boy entrant so for my first couple of years in the real Royal Air Force mostly at Waterbeach I was a boy entrant until I managed, to get all my [unclear] was coming through when I was seventeen and a half so then I got luckily, fairly lucky, I got on a fitter’s course fairly quickly and also what they call a conversion course cause first off they trained us as armourers fitters guns just that side of it but then they wanted it, when they lost the other trades, things like turrets and one or two other small arms parts of the armament, it did all come into one and I did a conversion course to become a junior technician and then they posted me out to that lovely place called Aden and I thought I would be going to Khormaksar working on everything under the sun when I got there they said, get on that coach, you’re going to Steamer Point, where is that? It’s down in the harbour but it was a much better place than Khormaksar and easy, it was an MU and I actually worked on a large bomb dump, I’m talking both air force, navy and army material which mostly we were looking after destroying at times. Basic throwing everything we didn’t want in the sea because at the same time at Khormaksar 8th Squadron converted from Vampires with 20mm guns to Hunters with 30mm guns and we had lots and lots of ammunition and I’m talking thousands of rounds. I threw, threw most of it into the sea and then they found out I’d thrown one lot I shouldn’t have thrown away [laughs]. But it was one of those things that happen. I did two years in Aden getting the general service medal for Arabian Peninsula although basically I hardly had a shot fired [unclear] or twice but not much. I returned to England and went to eventually RAF Northorpe at Coastal Command headquarters just looking after the small arms weapons, there was about fifty of them we were told there was two of us to do it, it was basically boring and I couldn’t get on, I couldn’t pass me corporal tech at the time so the flight sergeant said to me, how would you fancy a post in some [unclear] flight sergeant down there another junior tech who wanted to come to Northwood so we exchanged posts and I went to St Mawgan and I ended up on 206 Squadron for the best part of six years. Funny thing was that when I got to St Mawgan I met another lad in the armament trade and his [unclear] was up in Dartford in Kent so and I had a car, so he cottoned on to me and I used to drive him off to Kent where I met his sister. She is now my wife and has been for fifty odd years. Unbelievable really because I from London to St Mawgan and then suddenly going to court a girl up in Dartford in Kent, it was unbelievable, anyway that happened. We went up to Kent last eventually when the squadrons moved up to Kinloss to chase the Russian submarines round the North Sea, it was a bit closer than St Mawgan. Basically I loved it on 206 when they said to me one day the squadron leader engineer said, Corporal Morris, we are going to send you on a torpedo course. I said, I don’t want to go on a torpedo course, I’m happy in the squadron, I want to stay here. Oh, he said, you got to go, it’s a good idea for your career. I never really believed it, anyway I went. I got to RAF Newton on a pre-course, electrical course, and met the other half dozen armourers there and they said, oh, you are Corporal Morris, are you? Yeah, why? He said, well, you are going to Changi with us. Hello, nobody told me that! So I decided I’d pass the course, which I did and eventually got posted to Changi as it happened, my wife obviously came with me etcetera and by the time she was pregnant with our first eldest son which she produced in RAF Changi hospital and eventually the second one before we left the tour as was well at RAF Changi hospital, so both of our sons were born at RAF Changi. I served in the torpedo section which was basically air-conditioned and very, very nice and clean and after we’d been there about six months the group that I was with [unclear] at that time we just about looked at every torpedo and cleaned them up and repainted them so everything was alright after that, nothing hardly to do really and I got posted back to England and the funny thing then was when my post had come through it said 26 Squadron and I looked at the other blokes, by which time I was a sergeant by the way, I looked at the other blokes and said, 26 Squadron? That’s a Squadron in Germany, you don’t go from Singapore to Germany. They said, read the rest of the title, brackets, Royal Air Force regiment. Damn it, I don’t want to go to the regiment, anyway I’ve got no choice, come back and got posted to RAF Bicester with 26 Squadron on the regiment as a sergeant armourer on Bolfords guns, the latest version of what of course they had in the war the early versions, ours were, they could be electronically controlled but we didn’t have the radar to do it. If they wanted the radar, they had to borrow it, basically ask the army if they could use theirs [laughs]. Anyway that lasted for about a year when the regiment squadron was posted to Gutersloh and as it happened I didn’t realise that but I was still immune to be posted overseas unless I asked nicely. So the adjutant called myself as a sergeant armourer and a corporal radio lad on a Friday afternoon and he said, we think you are doing well because up till then I’d been the back end of the air force as far as it goes. We’d like you so much, would you like to come to Germany with us? You can go and ask your wives you’re both married, go and ask your wives whether they want to go to Germany and I looked at this corporal and he looked at me and we looked back at the adjutant and together we said, no thank you sir. So we got posted out and I got posted to Honington when I’d become part of what was by that time Strike Command on the Buccaneers early, the early squadron, 12 squadron Buccaneers, mostly the Mark IIs. I served in most of the sections and squadrons, on that squadron at Honington, I didn’t go on a nuclear weapons site although I loaded the nuclear weapons etcetera onto the Buccaneers because we were in those days fighting the Cold War etcetera, which was quite a good thing in the end but I found, by this time I managed to get up to chief technician which was the maximum rank I got and I was put in charge of the carrier bay but ended up doing just about everything else, loading Martels, specialist Martel man, the ejection seats of course, nuclear weapons, standard bombs. If the squadron couldn’t do it which at the time they were still in the bases of [unclear] and I ended up doing it with my lads which annoyed me cause my workers backing up on the section. So anyway that happened and I went on and from there the next posting came through and again a funny one, 112 Squadron in Cyprus, what’s that? Luckily one of my junior techs had been posted out to 112 so I did know that it was Mark II Bloodhounds, surface to air missiles. So I already had a contact on the squadron which was Andy so myself and my family went out in June ’74 and if you know the history of there, the Turks walked in in July and basically buggered up everything. We were not allowed to fight them, I think it was Callaghan was the foreign secretary then and he wouldn’t allow us to fight them. Mind you we hadn’t got a lot to fight with, I think we had a regiment squadron in Akrotiri, the royal Scots up at Episkopi where I was actually based and a couple of tank companies over at the other side, the eastern SBA as it was called, we were the western, which is the Sovereign Base Area, but our radar told me, by the radar lads of course that they could watch the Turkish F100s lifting off Turkey and lock onto them and could shoot them down quite happily except they weren’t allowed to. And luckily they didn’t come and bomb us although they went over the SBA a couple of times but they didn’t drop anything and the silly thing of the air force people [unclear] they put 56 Squadron Lightnings up with the F100s to escort them across, our missiles didn’t know the difference so we couldn’t fire anyway so we were immune from, we didn’t fire at all. Things quietened down, unfortunately the families were sent home because of the problems, had to be sent back to England which didn’t help very much cause my wife by that time had three children, we had three children, two boys and a girl, which is all we we got now and she eventually ended up at the place where they make air publications and I can’t think of name off the top of me head and she was there for about six months and then the powers at bay said to 112 Squadron, so good we gotta keep you on, so your family has gotta come back whereas some went home and I was considered an essential personnel by that time [laughs] but unfortunately although I was a chief tech to get a married quarter, which you couldn’t live out by that time, you had to live on married, on the site or on the camp, they said, oh no, we are going to change the system, the people who has got the least time to do are getting the married quarters first, so basically an SAC had no points with just a wife could get a married quarter was with three children and they were still in England, took about six months, not a happy time. Eventually she came back and we got a married quarter of course in Episkopi which went on alright, was gonna be nice, the Turks had quietened down, they had got the bit in the north in Cyprus that they wanted and then someone else come along and said, oh, we’ve decided to disband the squadrons in Cyprus, that was 112, 56 and the, I think it was two Falcon squadrons they put on at Akrotiri at that time. Thank you very much, when are we going home? As it happened obviously a senior NCO in the sergeant’s mess, I was a partner of the warrant officer who posted armourers around the Mediterranean, Gibraltar, Malta, I think [unclear] had finished by that time and of course Cyprus so he said to me, he said, hey Mal, you’re a chief tech with a qualification for torpedo, I said, yes, he said, how do you fancy going to Malta to finish your tour? And I said yes please and as it happened he was going there as well as the engineering warrant officer [laughs] so we went over to Malta with the family of course which was, I thought was quite nice but my wife wasn’t very keen on Malta, I don’t really know why, we lived out in Malta so she got on alright with the local people. As it happened the lady above her was Maltese although married to an RAF serviceman of course. So she got on quite well but she didn’t like it very much. And of course that time which is ’77-’78 Malta was closing down because of the president his name [unclear] he was checking us out basically because the Libyans were giving him all the money. So we started to pack up and my wife said let’s gonna go home so basically I sent her home. She went home and she went home to her mother at the time but I was now sort of [unclear] to requirements so they just said, well, we don’t want you here anymore you might as well go as well, so it only lasted about a month and I got back home and I was then posted to Marham again the specialist qualification came up, the Martel section. I didn’t like it. Anyway we got a quarter at Marham, settled down there basically with the children [unclear] school etcetera and because I was coming towards the end of my twenty two year contract time by that time I had put in for the last postance, it was overseas Cottesmore, oh, and Wittering but I got Marham so I wasn’t too bothered, alright, anyway went to the officer in the charge, but didn’t get on with very well, but that’s another story, I said, oh, we are going to post you to Coltishall, where do you want to go? I said, I don’t want to go now, oh, he said, you got no choice, you gotta go, it’s your last tour post and you’ve only got a year eighteen months to do. So, I went over to Coltishall which turned out to be quite well actually, by this time of course the family was still in Marham, I was at Coltishall but I got a quarter at Coltishall fairly quickly because the problems with Cyprus and being on a [unclear] I got more points than normal so I was quite high on the points list by that time, so of course my wife come over to with the children to Coltishall so we lasted the last twelve months, eighteen months, I was basically 6 Squadron chief tech in charge of the bomb dump being the Jaguars they were back up for Germany if the balloon went up, if the Cold War become hotted up we were supposed to go over the Jaguars and land on the motorway [unclear] but we never did and basically was exercises to go over to Germany or Netherlands or wherever they decided to go. I think I was out on the forth [unclear] Hercules with about a half a dozen blokes and fourteen cluster bomb out on the bomb dump to look after, so that happened once or twice, which was, my daughter was about eight by that time, the trouble was they used to put the siren out when the exercise started and daddy disappeared to camp on work or come back with this gun, his [unclear] disruptive combat so [unclear] all the rest of it and she was in tears basically and eventually a day or two later once we’ve loaded the Hercules etcetera away I flew for a fortnight or so or used to be ten days on exercise, so my daughter hates this siren and I’ve got one on the car and I’ll bring it up now and again and forty years old she still hates the siren. So basically I was at Coltishall coming up to the end of my time, I applied to sign onto 55 but by that time the Air Force was starting to shrink and they didn’t want chief, high chief techs they wanted Indians so they didn’t allow me to sign on, they did offer me forty seven but I always thought, seven years and I give the government two thousand pounds a year cause I get a pension that way and I know I said I went out instead. What didn’t help and I don’t want it necessarily said was actually the [unclear] group captain on one because he did something wrong in admin put all I didn’t get nothing out of it some poor corporal in the general office that I didn’t even know got a reprimand for giving the wrong information so I left the Air Force out of a bit of a cloud, it was the time I went and the other thing that decided the two us myself and wife the school, local school send [unclear] things in how many places your children [unclear] six months well we used those up and turned the page over and put another half dozen on the back because we are going in and out of Cyprus etcetera, so basically I left the Air Force in 1980 with myself, my wife and the three children and I got the job as a refrigeration engineer. I couldn’t spell it when I left the Air Force, a month later I was one for a firm called Hobart engineering in the Ipswich area and basically I was the Kent engineer for Hobart’s [unclear] travelled for twelve years till they made me redundant. So I was quite happy [unclear] and that’s about my lifetime.
SB: Ok, so that’s given me some food for thought.
MM: It did [laughs]
SB: [laughs] So I think if we go back now to when you first joined up and you are fifteen so that’s 1955, war has been over for ten years but we’ve still got an awful lot of things going on how did that influence your decision, do you think?
SB: Not at all. I would say not at all because as I said earlier I did want to join the air force but didn’t think I would be qualified to any extent and when I was offered the boy entrant I just jumped at it, to be quite honest. Again, the headmaster of the school who, hang on, he did cane me now and again, gave me quite a good recommendation although I was considered the best athlete at the time and I’ve gone downhill since then but I was considered the best athlete at the time in the school. So I had quite a good recommendation from the headmaster which must have influenced a little but I was right at the back end of the boy entrant entry, I think with my entry I was within about the last twenty numbers.
SB: Ok, so, the war itself didn’t seem to influence you. How did you feel about the possibility of maybe getting into another war and having to?
MM: Never really gave it a thought and it was the case or you buy it, obey the orders anyway and get on with it, which is what happened with the odd places I was, with the small wars like Aden, Cyprus, I never really got influenced in Northern Ireland, I nearly did because 26 Squadron the regiment were going to be sent to Northern Ireland but this is when they went to Gutersloh instead so, phew, I didn’t get to Northern Ireland because it was still active in those days and of course the Buccaneers were back up for lots of places which could have had wars, we used to go to Norway and even took them to Singapore for a month. After, that was after the Air Forces had left of course so the Buccaneers would have been in the war if it was going to be but we never really thought about it, to be quite honest. If it happens, it happens.
SB: Let’s talk a little bit about the planes that you done, mentioned Buccaneers, you also mentioned Shackletons. Can you tell me a little bit about what you liked, didn’t like about the varying planes?
MM: Well, if you know the Shackleton, which is my longest Squadron really, I was actually on the squadron, I was actually working on the Mark IIIs, which is the one with the tricycle undercarriage as opposed to the tail draggers, the two’s and the one’s, the two’s and the one’s were still bombing up wise, were still operating as the Lancasters did in the war with the winch, that you literally had to winch up the bombs which was hard work but the Mark III they had based that similar to the Vulcan where we had hydraulic jacks to lift the large frame which had the torpedoes on them so basically the Mark III Shackleton was, as far as I was concerned, was excellent. Ah, we did a thing called the search and rescue standby for a week, we had a Shackleton on one hour standby to take off for a search and rescue anywhere over the Atlantic or wherever basically required and if the first Shackleton went, the squadron had another Shackleton virtually ready at the same time but not quite ready, they had to call people in, especially at Kinloss because I was by that time I suppose the senior corporal, because there was only a corporal armourer and a sergeant armourer went off from St Mawgan to Kinloss, so I was considered the senior corporal for that sort of thing and for an S&R, search and rescue load of, what we had on them? We had the SAR staff sonobuoys and flares but they were all on the beams, there were only four beams that we put on and but they were all already on the trolleys set up on the beams so it only had to be pulled out to the aircraft, fix up the hydraulic jacks two of them, do one at a time and up they went. In fact I could actually, actually I haven’t and I have done, I could load the Shackleton for that in twenty minutes flat as long as I had a couple of blokes to obey and they knew what they were doing, if it was armourer’s great but otherwise it could be anyone else that actually knew because we helped each other on the Shackleton’s. So many a time at Kinloss I’ve be in bed and a quarter across the road from the main gate but there’d be a knock on the door and I’d stick me head out of the window it’s marvellous SAR’s been called out, we need the next load, oh damn, out of bed, get dressed, on me bike, cross I went, loaded the Shackleton up because there was other ground crew there to look after the Shackleton as such, they just needed a specialist armourer there, in about within two hours I was back on bed [laughs] and often the second one didn’t take off so cause I had to get up again [laughs]. That was the Shackletons of course they went round the world, I luckily got a trip to Singapore with them although that was into the Borneo confrontation and of course we never saw anything really of that, we were just looking for the gun runners basically on the South China Sea. As I said, on the Shackleton, if they went on a training trip to fire the guns, they’d take up one of the armourers missile from one of the others whatever to clear the stockages that invariably happened [laughs] and they gave us a go, so that’s how I come to fire guns out of a Shackleton which was a bit unusual for a ground training, I did hit me target, mind you it was the South China Sea at the time [laughs], my sergeant it seemed when he went up, he actually hit the smokefloat that they dropped down, canister about like two [unclear] so he actually had that they say, well none of the aircrew never got near they just got the South China Sea like me, which was I suppose handy because I’d been, it was Changi that we went on a detachment and of course later I was posted to Changi as a torpedo specialist so I knew the area but nothing great about it. Mostly then I also had Buccaneers later which were of course the nuclear Buccaneer, they carried two nuclear weapons, six hundred pound 177, nuclear weapon, the English-made version by the way, because I did actually put nuclear weapons on Shackletons which a lot people don’t realise they did, but we had to borrow them off the Yanks, the Yanks had a bomb, a special weapons bomb dump at St Mawgan and Machrihanish for this but we just had to ask them, we’d like to put two on our aircraft in a month’s time. So, sign here, a sort of thing. Which was one of the funny things there, I happened to be on tour six that we were doing the test in the early days, this must have been about 64, 63, 64, we were designated to do the test with the Yanks to see that ours went up and whatever, very little we did, it was just the case of doing the checks on the switches and things, I did the switches and the chief read the book, and I turned one switch the wrong way and the Yank said, stop, stop, that’s it, start again, so half an hour back again, I’m starting the book again and then one day we’ve been putting these on and off for a month or two, not too regular, they’d all come out painted I can’t remember now maybe blue or green and then one come out a different colour, one colour or another so we got them on the aircraft flew away for an hour or so, just to do whatever they had to do, and while we were there the Yank obviously stayed with us in the crew room, who was looking after the weapon, we said, hey, why is that a different colour? He said, man, that’s the real one! [laughs] Oh, and we got taken off [laughs], we’ll do this gently [laughs] took it off and waved goodbye to it. And until I went on the Buccaneers I never saw another live one, I did see live ones on the Buccaneer, but not often and actual fact the Buccaneers as to my knowledge, in the squadron anyway, they didn’t take off with a weapon on board, they may have channelled down the runway a little bit but they just come back and we took them off. They must well have been flown sometime because the navy had them as well on their Buccaneers but as far as I know we never flew one off on Honington in the time I was there it had actually flew off or if it did it was only a training weapon, but by the time I put mine on and gone back for a cup of tea I didn’t care where the aircraft went, I just had to wait till it come back again. So that was the Buccaneers mostly. It’s interesting time on the Buccaneers cause I became a specialist, took the course on the Martel guided weapon, was a TV guided or a radar guided Martel, two versions, which is why I ended up at Marham on the Martel section and I also got a Martin Baker course for a week on the ejection seats, they were just starting to fit rocket seats, the Harrier which needed a big rocket seat cause that could be going down when it’s crashed, as opposed to be flying along, so they had to have a good boost up to get into the air at what they called 0 0 feet, they could actually pull, no that they wanted to but they could pull the ejection seat handle and when they were sitting on the ground doing nothing and they’d still come down [unclear] I don’t think they ever tested it as such and I went to Martin Baker it was really nice, couple of pints at dinnertime and a meal and all sorts and for a week was really nice, we actually met in passing the man called Benny Lynch who in the back, just after the war, back end of the war, he was one of the first ones that ejected out of a Meteor in test and done more ejections than anyone else. I think by that time he had broken just about every body in, bone in his body and basically he was, basically just about at it but he was still kept on by as an idol of Martin Baker. That was the Buccaneers so and the only other aircraft I didn’t work on a lot but just out bomb up now and again was the Jaguar, as I said, I was mostly in charge of their bomb dump so if they went on detachment I was in charge of all the bombs and got them set up and put on the carrier or whatever required and the armourers on the squadron actually did the loading as such although they used to call me in now and again if they had a problem, mostly it was a problem I had caused or my lads had because they hadn’t quite done the right thing with whatever the fusing etcetera had to be done, so there was a few problems now and again. And that’s about my main time with the aircraft.
SB: Ok. Are there any particular stories that come to mind from your time, you’ve mentioned being able to fire into the South China Sea and so on, you have already mentioned a few things but are there any other incidents at all that you’d like to share?
MM: The one that amuses me a lot, on 26 squadron of the regiment they had thirteen Bulfords guns, twelve of them were obviously on the [unclear], four on each, three four is twelve, yes, but my gun was the thirteenth. But when I went to the regiment and the lads showed me everything and said, where’s this [unclear] on my infantry, he said, oh, they’re in, it’s in that building over there in the, we were working out of an old MT, one of the old MT buildings over there, but he said, well, we don’t know, we’ve taken bits off it like it’s what the Air Force called a Christmas tree, I if we wanted a part, we took it off there before they sent us a bit and after the time we didn’t bother to put it back on the other gun, cause we probably used it on something else eventually, so eventually it came around that we were going to take the squadron was going down to Manorbier to fire the guns and of course they wanted to fire all of the guns cause they were talking of going to Germany and we had to test the barrels and all sorts of things, so I said to the lads, I said, we are gonna have to get this gun out. And they said, well, we will have to be a bit careful the ones that have been there so we went up, opened up, started to push this gun out and I don’t know if you know but the wheels of the gun are locked down [unclear] when it’s being dragged along the ground, but when the gun is going to fire they take them up and it sits on feet, unfortunately this thing fell on the ground, luckily none of the lads got injured so anyway this gun [unclear], so I told their officers in charge etcetera, this gun [unclear] it and they said oh well, went through the system and they said, send it back to Stafford, so we [unclear] rigged it so as the wheel stayed up coming down and it disappeared behind the truck and a new gun, a gun from Stafford that was being refurbished come back to us, all nice painted etcetera etcetera, ok, alright so we dragged, in fact I went on the truck, dragged my gun down to Manorbier and the regiment obviously set their guns out cause they could set all twelve onto the firing range and carried on for half a week and then they said, right, now we’ll try your gun, I said, alright, we are going to fire this, he said, no, you can’t fire it, well, I got six armourers, ah, they said, but you’ve been trained how to load it [laughs], we were servicing the bloody thing but we weren’t being trained cause they put them in from the side and all sorts so, anyway one of the sergeants in the [unclear] took my gun, put it up on the range, started off red, he had tips of five rounds, very like a 303 but bigger and they started firing it, fired about two or three rounds, bang, bang, bang, now stopped, oh shit, called us out, and what they do? Don’t know, got jammed with a mechanism going back before you can’t move it cause it’s too big but two Welshmen that had done this for years, they had a trolley about the size of that table and a big piece of lead basically that you can hardly lift up on a chain but these done it so many times they, oh, we got another jammed gun, it was pointed in safe direction by the way [laughs], and they come up and one of them lifted this and swung it round and hit it in the right place and the gun went and fired, bang, stand a couple of times, we got a bit fed up with this, one of my corporals a very nice, very good lad Scotsman, he what it was cause I hadn’t got a clue, I hadn’t been trained on the guns and this was just experience and he said, you couldn’t get ammunition was called forty seventy or forty sixty it was just slightly bigger, the one, the seventy is slightly bigger but what he reckoned Stafford had done he had bolted the slideway for the ammunition to go in, one side was forty and the other was sixty so basically it was [unclear], skewed as you went down, he sorted this out and changed the bolt etcetera etcetera by which time they finished firing so he never did find out if it fired that way, it went to Germany and I don’t know. But the other things as well that the lads said, they’d been there before to Manorbier of course they said Sarge, he said, it’s bloody horrible there, we give out all the ammunition that’s basically our job on the day unless the [unclear] stops. And come the evening we got all these empty cases back and we gotta, we box’em and put this free of explosives, he used to take us hours to, he said by the time we got back to the camp at Pembrey, starts with the P but Welsh area anyway is a small camp, army camp, small, all the food had gone more or less, I thought, what am I gonna do? Hang on, he says, that a senior NCO must certify free of explosives so he’s fired the gun and he’s got [unclear] he knows it’s free of explosives, each gun had a sergeant in charge of it, I thought, right, make out a list, you will put all the empty cases back in the boxes, seal them up, the lads were doing it of course. Not my lads but his lads, because they had time between the aircraft flying over and things like that to do this sort of thing and certify it and sign it, so all we had to do basically the armourers as such was travel down the back of the guns, at the ones they stopped firing and pick it all up on a three tonner, take it down to a building and stick it all in the building, the next day I had to certify that it was all empty and take it down to the trains at Pembroke Dock, put them on a train, seal that and send it back to Stafford or wherever it went, I don’t know, and this was right because the sergeants weren’t too keen on doing the job but my army officer, the warrant officer on the squadron so it was the case of the warrant officer says and they did it [laughs] and it worked beautifully. The lads, in fact my lads were just about the first ones back because the others, the regiment themselves had of course cleaned the gun and strip it down, [unclear] over for night time etcetera so our lads were just about the first ones back to the cook house so they thought that was great [laughs], so from the lad’s point of view I scored but from the regiment point of view I didn’t like it. I got to know how to do things cause being only a sergeant, the flight sergeants were in charge of the flights and if I wanted something done like their guns cleaned, I’m talking about their private work, I say private, their individual work which they were allocated of course, the SLR by that time, self-loading rifle, I had the armoury as well to look after, although I had a couple of lads doing that of course, every [unclear] they knocked down a barrel and if anything was dirty they said gun number 24 or whatever is dirty barrel, so I used to phone up the flight sergeant and say, so and so and so and so and so and so of your people have got dirty weapons, oh, I can’t be bothered by, warrant officer so and so says and five minutes later they were done, the armoury clean and their weapons [laughs] so it worked out alright but it took me six months to work all this lot out by which time I got the chance to leave and I did [laughs].
SB: Right, so, I think we’ve covered a fair amount of your time.
MM: Good! Crakey, yes!
SB: In there so unless there is anything else you can think that you’d like to add to it? I mean, maybe one question I can throw to you. You said the war, Second World War, didn’t influence your decision to go in but how did you feel about those people who had taken part in, in war, those people who did fly in Bomber Command, how did you feel about it?
MM: At the time I went in because there were still so many in the Air Force, for instance my old chief on 206 Squadron went through the war from an apprentice, he was I believe an apprentice at the beginning of the war and he went through the war and ended up as a warrant officer but only on a temporary rank. And I felt a bit for him because eventually he chased the Japanese back up through Burma and went into Japan with them and became forces of occupation, he was told us that as a warrant officer he sent him out with half a dozen blokes and a truck and get rid of all the Japanese war stores and the Japanese way of storing stuff is different to our way, I mean, we put ammunition in one place over there and furniture over there and food somewhere else and paperwork everywhere else, spread out all over the place, the Japanese didn’t do it that way, they put everything in smaller places, so the ammunition, food, weapons, vehicles, obviously the weapons and ammunitions was part of what the old warrant was telling me destroyed of course. But they had everything else, they had furniture, clothing, well, because, like a large barn basically they used to tell us [unclear] where it was sort of thing and the door was there, well, because of the war etcetera you were worried about booby-traps which is part of why he went of course and the armourers so they used to blow the doors open as opposed to try to open them with a pickaxe or whatever [laughs], they used to blow them open, the trouble, well good thing from this point, I can tell you now cause he’s dead but the good thing about that was when the bang went off, all the local people, we knew about these things, turned up and wanted half of what they could get so basically you sold it to them what he could but the ammunition of course or the weapons etcetera and he ended up quite a rich man basically, in Japanese money though, which was a bit hopeless. Cause he was also involved with the Shackletons earlier on in the nuclear weapons and I reckon that’s where he died of leukaemia but again shouldn’t say this I suppose but the government won’t recognize the blokes from that time and the same thing with the war, the government never recognised it till they put the memorial up in Green Park, which I went to in a couple of years ago, three years ago now, wasn’t it? Couldn’t really, Churchill was good, he was the man of the time, the man we needed, but basically I, I and others of the same thing, we blame Churchill for the devastation we caused in Germany which really didn’t need to happen, it’s the, it’s hindsight it’s easy, hindsight is the, I always say, hindsight is the biggest and best management thing in England, the only trouble is they haven’t got any foresight. And the same thing he didn’t recognise Bomber Command basically way after he was dead etcetera which I think was a, since knowing all about it, was really a thing we shouldn’t have done and we are still in the same thing now, we hardly recognise the people that come back from Afghanistan etcetera, we have trouble looking after them, we shouldn’t, the Armed Forces Covenant, which I try and [unclear] a little, and try and see about but it seems to be dead in the water to be quite honest, where they should look after everybody after they come back out of the forces not just Afghanistan but because when I left the Air Force and went to Dartford, cause my wife comes from Dartford, luckily we put our name down on the Dartford council list, they wouldn’t put my name down because I didn’t come from Dartford, my wife they could put down so we basically since we’ve been married best part of twenty years, we’d had our list down so we got a council house which was most unusual. Although of course we were at Coltishall and because I was going out and the Air Force basically sent me an eviction latest six months beforehand so I sent out to the local council Norfolk and they said, oh no, we are not interested in you, you didn’t come, you come from Herefordshire, you go back to Herefordshire basically. And then I read the small print and it said, if you have worked in the area for a year or eighteen months or so, you can qualify to go on the list and I looked at the wife and said, you work for Birdseye, in the local frozen fruit factory for the last couple of years? Yes, we’ll put your name down instead so we did and we got the letter back where you could see [unclear] put her on but we haven’t got a place for her. But luckily the Dartford council come up with a place. That’s the sort of bad things about the way the Air Force or the government run the Air Force, shall we say. And of course 12 Squadron lately, they were flying Tornadoes of course out of Lossiemouth and went to the various Iraq and Iran and things and then they were told, oh, well, that’s it, we’d had enough, we don’t want Tornadoes [unclear] or 12 Squadron disbanded so they disbanded 12 Squadron the only one left operational is 6 Squadron [unclear] I was on and all the rest have gone and they disbanded 12 Squadron and then they suddenly found out they hadn’t got enough Tornadoes to carry on, so 2 Squadron was disbanded as well, and instead of, they just added the flag over to 12 Squadron and gave them the aircraft and then went on of course to have the Typhoons so 12 Squadron are now back in operation with a first lady wing commander in charge of the squadron, I think she still is on in charge, got a backseat as opposed to a pilot as such although she’s done quite a few Afghan operations etcetera but as a backseater as I called it as opposed to a pilot. I think she’s still in charge. So that’s, the government can’t get it right, no matter what they try, talk to Cameron now and he’s trying to go and bomb’em and we don’t wanna know.
SB: Ok. Were there any other people you came across who had actually been part of Bomber Command?
MM: Well, my chief was, he was Bomber Command before he went overseas to Far East, he was in Bomber Command with the Lancasters quite a bit. And of course I met quite a few in the fifties, stroke early sixties but most of those were chief technicians or flight sergeants, warrant officers sort of thing so, basically down a corporal level, the only one I actually knew fairly well for a while was in the war was in Aden, he was an LAC there, Yorkie, yes, LAC, I don’t know he never wanted [unclear] but he actually helped arm up [unclear], Spitfire at Biggin Hill [unclear], I went through the war but as an LAC and he was talking now in his forties he was still an LAC, he just didn’t want to go any further so but he never really told us many stories of the war as such, that was one of the ones that as I say he was at Biggin Hill for a while and reckoned he helped arm up the Spitfire for, well, he’d be then I think Squadron or wing commander by that time, I think, got that a bit mixed up, have I? I don’t know.
SB: Ok, thanks very much Mal.
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Interview with Malcolm Francis Morris
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Sheila Bibb
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-07-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AMorrisM150720
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Pending review
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00:46:26 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Second generation
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Malcolm Francis Morris, who was a child when war broke out, remembers joining the RAF as a boy entrant and then serving as an armament technician during the Cold War. Describes his training at St Athans and being then posted to Aden, where he was in charge of a bomb dump and occasionally disposed of the ammunition. Remembers various episodes: serving on 112 Squadron in Cyprus in 1974; being awarded the General Service Medal for the Arabian Peninsula; taking a specialist course on ejection seats and one on torpedoes; his posting back to England on various stations; handling different kinds of weapons. Talks about his experience with the Buccaneers and Shackletons and gives technical details about the nuclear armament of the aircraft. Expresses his critical views on Churchill regarding the destruction of the German cities during the war and the neglecting of veterans.
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Cyprus
Germany
Great Britain
Singapore
Yemen (Republic)
South China Sea
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
bomb dump
ground personnel
perception of bombing war
RAF St Athan
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/114/1173/ADelfinoG171029.1.mp3
82938fcfa0094b054fdc2fa441873da9
Dublin Core
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Title
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Delfino, Giovanni
Giovanni Delfino
G Delfino
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One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects her wartime experiences in the Milan and Cremona areas.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-10-29
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Delfino, G
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ST: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre, l’intervistatrice è Sara Troglio, l’intervistato è Giovanni Delfino, e l’intervista ha luogo a casa dell’intervistato in [omitted] a Carate Brianza. Oggi è il 29 Ottobre 2017 e sono le ore 17. Volevo chiederti un po’ della tua vita prima della guerra, dove abitavate, appunto, ciò che ti ricordavi sul tuo quartiere.
GD: Allora, come ha già detto l’intervistatrice, sono Giovanni Delfino, classe 1933, ai tempi del racconto avevo undici anni, undici, dodici anni, perché parliamo del ’44-’45. Precedentemente all’avvenimento devo dire che la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era situato in Via Petitti al numero 11, che era una via adiacente alla Via Traiano che confinava con gli stabilimenti Alfa Romeo del Portello, i primi stabilimenti che erano stati fatti a Milano. Fino a quel momento, io la guerra l’avevo diciamo così sentita un po’ da lontano perché i miei genitori avevano provveduto a farmi sfollare nella zona di Cremona da nostri parenti dimodoché io ad un certo momento quando c’era un incursione aerea su Milano li sentivo solamente per sentito dire, oppure quando succedevano di notte da questa distanza che erano circa 60 chilometri, io vedevo i bagliori delle parti delle case incendiate eccetera perché essendo campagna tutta piatta si riusciva a vedere i bagliori da Milano. Caso vuole che ormai considerando che la guerra stava finendo, i miei genitori decisero di ritornare a casa e qui successe il fattaccio, successe il fattaccio perché dunque la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era adiacente ad un convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù, circondato da altissimi muraglioni alti, alti, alti, e intorno c’eran tutte, vuoi l’Alfa Romeo, e vuoi piccole aziende e altra campagna cioè prati, più che altro coltivazioni di ortaggi, eccetera eccetera. Dico questo perché una particolarità, tutte le siepi che circondavano queste ortaglie erano diciamo, luogo, diciamo, di ritrovo degli operai di queste ditte, piccole ditte che, finito l’orario di mensa, si mettevano per quei pochi minuti che rimanevano ancora a giocare a carte o a dama all’ombra di queste siepi. Il giorno che sto per raccontare era un giorno, non mi ricordo bene se luglio o agosto, era sul mezzogiorno. Gli operai erano tutti sotto queste siepi a giocare, eccetera eccetera. Io ero appena tornato da, dalla spesa, dall’aver fatto la spesa con mia mamma, che si trovava sull’androne del caseggiato insieme ad altre persone perché sotto c’era un bar, e insieme a un ufficiale dell’aereonautica militare italiana. Io ero lì che guardavo, curiosavo e la, come fanno tutti i bambini, questi operai che giocavano a carte, a dama, eccetera eccetera. A un certo momento, suona il piccolo allarme. Il piccolo allarme, allora c’era il piccolo allarme e il grande allarme. Il piccolo allarme veniva dato quando le squadriglie erano distanti abbastanza da Milano. In quel momento lì invece cosa successe? Successe che, con questo piccolo allarme, l’ufficiale che c’era insieme lì a mia mamma che stava chiacchierando, sentendo il rombo così degli aerei, guardò in alto e già a una certa distanza, essendo anche pratico, insomma, del mestiere [laughs], vide che c’era questa squadriglia altissima, altissima no, di Liberator, dice, famosi Liberator, e il caposquadriglia aveva fatto, aveva iniziato a fare una manovra, diciamo così, di circoscrizione della zona che, a detta dell’ufficiale dell’areonautica, era un segnale per, diciamo, l’inizio del bombardamento. Al che, l’ufficiale gridò subito: ‘Bombardano, bombardano!’, mia madre, immaginare lo spavento, io, come tutti i bambini che quando vengono richiamati dalle proprie madri, no, ci mettono una, due, tre volte prima di decidersi a rispondere, a obbedire, come sentii il grido di mia mamma, partii come un razzo e arrivai di volata, percorsi questi cinquanta, sessanta metri, quelli che potevano essere, arrivai sotto all’androne della casa. In quel momento arrivavano le prime bombe. Lo spostamento d’aria buttò mia madre, l’ufficiale ed io giù per la tromba delle scale, verso i rifugi, che normalmente una volta si chiamavano rifugi ma, insomma, erano quello che erano, erano le cantine, e fortunatamente in fondo alle scale c’era un mucchio di sabbia, che veniva messo per gli incendi, eventualmente spegnere gli incendi, e io ero davanti, dietro c’era mia mamma, l’ufficiale, e giù tutti a capo di collo e io mi infilai con la testa dentro nel mucchio della sabbia, mi ferii la testa, infatti sto facendo vedere ancora la cicatrice all’intervistatrice. E finisce così, frastuono, polvere, e devo dire che a distanza adesso di anni, ragionando adesso dai miei ottantaquattro anni, devo dire, sinceramente, che io non provai grande spavento perché probabilmente la situazione era stata così rapida, traumatica, improvvisa, imprevedibile, eccetera eccetera che non aveva lasciato il tempo di pensarci troppo, giusto? Alla fine, passa, passa il bombardamento, si esce. Spettacolo, allora sì, incominciamo ad avere una sensazione, così, non più di paura perché ormai non c’era più la paura ma di accoramento perché la strada era ormai tappezzata di macerie. Avanti di noi c’era una casa proprio che era sul limite della Alfa Romeo proprio, di quattro piani con, abitata da molti miei amici e ancora una casa di quelle vecchie, fatte di mattoni, non cemento armato, era letteralmente un cumulo di mattoni, un cumulo di macerie con sotto tutte le persone. [pause] Per fortuna la nostra casa, sì, aveva le persiane abbattute, finestre e i vetri rotti eccetera ma era ancora in piedi, non aveva subito danni, qualche scheggia eccetera perché? Faccio una piccola premessa doverosa. A quei tempi gli Alleati sapevano che, per esempio, l’Alfa Romeo aveva adottato per gli stabilimenti, per esempio di Pomigliano d’Arco a Napoli eccetera, il sistema di costruire i reparti sottoterra, per proteggerli dai bombardamenti. E allora loro, i bombardamenti, adottavano un sistema. Anziché usare bombe dirompenti, usavano bombe perforanti, le quali entravano sottoterra, e esplodevano, non alla quota diciamo zero, ma sottoterra. E così fecero anche per questo bombardamento, no. Questo per noi fu una salvezza perché, salvezza con una concomitanza anche di destino perché ad un certo momento, guardando poi la disposizione delle buche delle bombe di questo bombardamento a tappeto, vedemmo che quella bomba che in teoria, in pratica doveva arrivare su casa nostra, si era spostata di circa una cinquantina di metri, forse di più. Era andata a finire in una delle ortaglie. Andando a finire in una delle ortaglie, aveva perforato il terreno, aveva tirato su terra a non finire al punto che al terzo piano della nostra casa, sopra di noi abitava il padrone di casa, che aveva un terrazzo e con la terra che arrivò sul terrazzo riempì i vasi di fiori, non buttò via la terra, questo per dire. E questa è stata una fortuna, perché praticamente non c’è stato spostamento d’aria. Piccola premessa, piccola anzi parentesi, più che premessa, la vicinanza del convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù gridò, ci portò anche a dire, è stato anche un miracolo perché c’aveva protetto. Benissimo, prendiamo tutto per buono, l’importante che non ci era successo niente. Però, questo è un fatto che, mi dispiace quasi dirlo che, perché è un po’ macabro. Voi dovete pensare che le finestre della mia abitazione guardavano proprio su queste ortaglie, dove c’erano le siepi con quegli operai che stavano lavorando, che stavano giocando a carte eccetera eccetera. Non se ne salvò uno perché quella famosa bomba che è arrivata nell’ortaglia, sì, ha salvato la mia casa ma purtroppo non ha salvato gli operai. Bene, io non so per quanti mesi non mangiai più carne, ecco la storia macabra, perché dalle finestre di casa mia ogni tanto si vedeva il carro funebre del comune che andava a rovistare nell’ortaglia, non so cosa facessero però si vedeva che tiravano su delle cose, le mettevano dentro in sacchi di plastica e poi se ne andavano, basta, vi lascio pensare cosa potevano tirare su, senz’altro non carote e patate. E questo insomma è stato la mia esperienza bellica attribuita alle incursioni aeree. E voi dovete pensare, un particolare che può essere così anche di alleggerimento a questo racconto, in una, una dei crateri delle bombe che, essendo un bombardamento a tappeto, praticamente di bombe ne avevano sganciate un bel po’, era proprio vicino a casa nostra, no, e quando ci sono stati gli Alleati, da noi c’era un insediamento della Croce Rossa e allora c’erano degli italo-americani che si erano fatti amici dei miei genitori, venivano da noi a prendere il caffè, erano dei militari di Boston, mi ricordo ancora, no, bravissime, bravissime persone, no, e ovviamente io su suggerimento loro andavo in una delle buche di queste bombe, allora c’era qualche buca era adibita a raccolta di rifiuti diciamo umidi, e questa buca invece era adibita a rifiuti invece cartacei e lì c’era tutta la corrispondenza, le buste della corrispondenza che ricevevano i militari americani, e io, appassionato di filatelia, andavo a raccogliere dentro nella busta, [laughs] nella buca della bomba, andavo a raccogliere queste buste per togliere i francobolli che sono ancora qua nella mia collezione che quando li vedo mi viene un senso di, così di commozione perché a ottantaquattro anni ci si commuove anche per, guardando dei francobolli. Ecco questo per dirvi, questo bombardamento a tappeto cosa aveva prodotto, nel male 90% e nel bene 10% per i francobolli del Gianni Delfino, che sarei io.
SR: Prima mi parlavi di tuo papà e del suo lavoro in Alfa Romeo. Volevo chiederti.
GD: Sì, ecco sì, mio padre, noi abitavamo proprio vicini alla Alfa Romeo perché era abitudine, abitudine, si cercava chi lavorava in questi stabilimenti di metter su casa vicino per essere comodi, per non avere tanta strada da fare così. E mio padre aveva, ha lavorato la bellezza di quarantun’anni in Alfa Romeo, era un capolinea sulle dentatrici Gleason, di modo che io ho sempre mangiato pane e ingranaggi a casa mia, perché il suo da fare è raccontare, io ero figlio unico, era raccontare, a lui piaceva molto mettere al corrente, metterci al corrente di quello che succedeva sui posti di lavoro, sulle evoluzioni tecniche della costruzione degli ingranaggi eccetera eccetera, che, considerando che erano in Alfa Romeo, erano di altissima qualità perché sappiamo che l’Alfa Romeo allora insomma era una delle prime ditte italiane in fatto di costruzioni di automobili.
ST: E vi parlava anche della vita in fabbrica magari come succedevano, cosa succedeva durante i bombardamenti lì o episodi di resistenza?
GD: No, [unclear], se, ecco, quando avevano sentore di qualche allarme, sulla Via Renato Serra che era una via proprio che tagliava in due praticamente lo stabilimento dell’Alfa Romeo, avevano costruito degli enormi rifugi antiaerei di cemento armato, saran stati, avranno avuto minimo minimo un venti metri di diametro, dentro c’era tutta una, chiamiamo una scala a chiocciola, dove gli operai entravano, e poi man mano, tu, tu, tu, tuck, si sistemavano tutti seduti su questa scala a chiocciola eccetera; questi rifugi erano fatti anche con una punta conica, con una punta d’acciaio, proprio la cuspide in acciaio per fare in modo che se arrivasse, arrivava qualche bomba eccetera, era portata a scivolare via, insomma, non poteva dare l’impatto su questa. E questo è uno delle caratteristiche diciamo che mi ricordo. Poi, tu cosa, cosa mi chiedeva lei, scusi?
ST: Ti chiedevo se appunto lui magari parlava di, come reagivano gli operai durante i bombardamenti.
GD: Ah, niente, no, guardi, ormai c’era un’assuefazione tale che a un certo momento niente, non dico che quando c’era il bombardamento ‘oh che bellezza, così non lavoriamo!’, però insomma non è che si, oddio, gli operai la preoccupazione erano per i familiari a casa perché loro si sentivano superprotetti in questi bunker no, però purtroppo, come abbiamo visto, se ci fosse stato un operaio che aveva dei parenti nella casa di fianco alla mia, eh, vi lascio ben immaginare quale poteva essere stato il suo stato d’animo alla sera quando sarebbe uscito dal suo rifugio e fosse andato a casa sua ecco. Questo non, eh, niente.
ST: E i tuoi genitori parlavano della guerra o del regime, si scambiavano opinioni politiche quando erano in casa, anche davanti a te?
GD: Sì, sì, sì, sì, non è che si, cioè per quanto potessi capire io a dodici anni però a un certo momento qualcosa capivo anche perché posso dire perché tanto non è un segreto, mio padre non era di idee di regime. [background noise] Diciamo, sei possiamo dire all’opposto, abbiamo detto tutto. E a tal riguardo io potrei, mi piacerebbe raccontare un fatto molto, molto significativo, che elude da quello che è i bombardamenti, l’incursione aerea così, però è un fatto umano molto interessante. Il reparto di mio padre era decentrato a Usmate, un paese qui nella periferia di Milano. Mio padre così, forse, così, godeva di grande stima da ambo le parti, dalla direzione che senz’altro politicamente non la pensava come lui, dagli operai che politicamente qualcuno anche pensava come lui, e da, diciamo dei gruppi, diciamo partigiani, ecco, diciamo il termine giusto come deve essere, anche perché mio padre faceva parte della Brigata Garbialdi, parliamo chiaro, Garibaldi prima civile, non armata non, però questo cosa gli faceva fare? Voi pensate, quando era il giorno di paga, mio padre prendeva la bicicletta, mettevano le paghe in una borsa di cuoio normale che veniva messa a cavallo della canna della bicicletta, come si fa quando si mette dentro la merenda, oppure la colazione eccetera, e lui partiva lemme, lemme da Milano, prendeva la Gallaratese, trac andava verso Usmate eccetera eccetera a portare le paghe. Voi dovete pensare che, strada facendo, spesso e volentieri incontrava partigiani, che saltavano fuori un po’ da tutte le parti. Non l’hanno mai fermato una volta. Primo, perché sapevano chi era, poi perché, onestamente, erano partigiani onesti. Perché uso la parola onesti? Perché dobbiamo essere consapevoli che, a quei tempi, l’onestà non è che era una bandiera che tutti sventolavano; l’onestà era un piccolo vessillo privato che ognuno, alle volte cercava quasi di tenere di nascosto, per non farsi vedere troppo onesto. E allora probabilmente lui ha avuto la fortuna di incontrare sempre queste persone che, conoscendolo ed essendo onesti, non l’hanno mai fermato e non gli hanno mai portato via una lira. Lui arrivava sempre sul posto e portava le paghe agli operai di Usmate. Questo è un fatto molto molto importante e significativo perché purtroppo si sentono tanti racconti non belli di persone che approfittavano della loro idea politica e del loro grado, soprattutto idea politica, per fare anche nefandezze. A me piacerebbe, se è consentito, poi casomai sarà l’intervistatrice che taglierà, perché ad un certo momento io in questa intervista avevo fatto una riflessione, ero stato preparato dalla signorina Troglio, perché io, in mezzo a queste cose qui, così tragiche, volevo dire due cose significative, molto molto belle, che io devo cercare di non farmi prendere dalla commozione, intanto che le racconterò. Allora, noi avevamo undici dodici anni. Non è che si patisse la fame però ci si arrangiava come ragazzi a, insomma, a cercare dove, noi per esempio andavamo in queste ortaglie, che dicevo, a prendere, a rubare, a prendere le zucche, poi a fette le portavamo in questa casa di quattro piani, cumulo di macerie che vi ho descritto, c’era un fornaio e noi le portavamo quando il forno era spento però ancora caldo, portavamo le fette di zucca verso le tre, quattro del pomeriggio e poi le andavamo a prendere alle sette, alle otto, perché erano belle cotte e ce le mangiavamo. Ecco, questo per dire un particolare ma questo qui è un particolare ameno. Ma invece quello che ho detto che mi dà commozione ancora è questo. In Viale Certosa c’era tutto il filiare di platani. Ora, a un certo momento il comando tedesco aveva dato ordine di abbattere il platani, probabilmente non era, era per una questione di approvvigionamento di legna da ardere perché chiunque vi insegna che se c’è un filare di alberi e ci sono dei mezzi militari ci tengono a non abbatterli perché essendo nascosti dietro gli alberi gli aerei non li vedono. Perciò sarebbe stato assurdo un bel viale alberato, andare ad abbattere gli alberi quando, però abbiamo capito che era perché anche loro poveretti insoma c’avevano bisogno di legna da ardere. Bene. Particolare bellissimo, bellissimo, cioè noi arriviamo davanti a questo albero, noi siamo in due o tre amici che siamo lì a guardare abbattere l’albero con le borse della spesa in mano. C’è un tedesco con l’ascia che sta abbattendo l’albero. Ovviamente saltano via le schegge di legno, noi ragazzi raccogliavamo le schegge di legno per portarle a casa e accendere la stufa. Questo giovane tedesco, soldato tedesco, me lo ricordo ancora, faceva apposta a far fatica a fare le schegge più grosse per far in modo che noi, anziché le schegge piccole avessimo dei pezzi di legno più grossi da portar via, questa è una cosa che io, mentre la sto dicendo, mi sto commovendo, perché è una cosa che, niente, con questo io non sto difendendo il soldato tedesco tout court. No, per l’amor del cielo, eh, lungi da me, niente, sto riferendo un fatto mio personale che è molto, molto, molto importante. E il secondo fatto, e io ho già detto che nella mia famiglia, avete già capito le idee politiche quali potevano essere, però in quel momento, noi dobbiamo ricordare che negli anni ’40 eccetera, si era tutti infollarmati [sic], si era molto tutti, io ero un figlio della lupa, dico la verità, avevo la mia divisina anch’io, no, eccetera, e io mi ricorderò sempre un altro fatto importantissimo. Di fianco a noi, di fianco a questo convento delle suore c’era anche e c’è ancora un, diciamo, un ricovero eccetera, un’opera, dove erano ricoverati gli orfani, degli orfanelli, erano gli orfani di Padre Beccaro, esiste ancora eccetera. , Benissimo, a un certo momento c’era la scritta sopra, c’era scritto, ‘Opera derelitti di Padre Beccaro’. Derelitti è una parola italiana normale che vuol dire ‘abbandonati’, non è un’offesa, no? Bene. A un certo momento, arriva il Duce, arriva il Duce, tutto il rione in subbuglio, tutte, non tanto gli uomini perché erano al lavoro ma tutte le donne coi figli: ‘Arriva il Duce andiamo a vedere cosa farà questo Duce!’. Io me lo ricordo ancora adesso, come mi ricordo il tedesco là che faceva, io me lo ricordo ancora arrampicato su una scala, mia moglie, mia mamma eccetera, con le lacrime agli occhi insieme ad altri, io no perché io non capivo, perché io avrò avuto sei, sette anni, otto anni, quello che è, e avevano preparato, solo la parola, la parola ‘derelitti’ era stata tutta inbiancata. E lui, me lo ricordo, io chiudo gli occhi, me lo vedo ancora sulla scala, col pennello di vernice nera, che ha scritto ‘piccoli’, ‘Opera piccoli di Padre Beccaro’, ancora adesso se andate a vedere, c’è scritto ‘opera piccoli’ adesso fatta bene ovvio, aveva fatto togliere la parola ‘derelitti’ perché non voleva, ecco. Parliamo chiaro, è propaganda, cioè non sto dicendo che in quel momento lì il Duce si è svegliato una mattina e preso da un rimorso, ‘oh, io devo andare’, no, quello no, propaganda eccetera, però sono quelle cose che, cioè riflettendo adesso, dico ma, pensate un pochettino cosa può fare un regime per riuscire a imbonirsi eccetera, le persone. Oh, lì c’era una massa di donne che piangevano perché vedevano il Duce che stava scrivendo la parola ‘piccoli’ e infatti bisogna dire, è un fatto che non è riprovevole, anche encominabile perché insomma uno che tira via la parola ‘derelitti’ e ci mette ‘piccoli’, insomma tanto di cappello, giusto? Se l’avesse fatto un prete, sarebbe stata la stessa cosa. Ecco questo è il secondo fatto, diciamo così ameno, leggero che volevo mettere insieme al bombardamento.
ST: Ma, volevo chiederti, a scuola, com’era la vita a scuola durante la guerra, se avevano parlato di bombardamenti o vi parlavano della guerra in corso.
GD: No, dunque, allora devi pensare questo, io premesso, io un certo momento, nonostante le idee eccetera però si era presi dentro in un canale, io ero un figlio della lupa, avevo la mia bella divisina, ci tenevo a andare alla Scuola Pietro Micca di Via Gattamelata a fare le mie riunioni eccetera tutto così eccetera e non sono mai diventato Balilla perché siccome sono sfollato di modo ché non ho fatto in tempo. Io la terza, la quarta, la quinta l’ho fatta a Castelleone in quel di Cremona, perciò a un certo momento là per me la guerra non esisteva più, il fascio non esisteva più, cioè, ero ben lontano là, vivevo in mezzo ai campi contadini, per me insomma ormai, per me la vita era con le mucche, i tori, i cavalli eccetera eccetera, no, ecco. E perciò direi che mah, sì, io a un certo momento, più che la guerra in sé stesso, eccetera eccetera, ricordo due o tre fatti, proprio rapidissimi, così, per esempio, i fascisti scappano da Milano, c’erano i giovani della X Mas eccetera, eccetera, che mi ricordo che passavano da Viale Certosa, quel viale dove avevano abbattuto gli alberi e, io dico adesso alla mia età, con una paura addosso, perché chissà che paura avevano, erano, passavano coi camion, e sparavano sulle finestre perché non volevano che la gente si affacciasse a vedere che loro stavano scappando. Questo me lo ricordo perché casa mia, praticamente, Via Petitti è all’inizio era dopo c’era Viale Certosa perciò io da casa mia vedevo le case di Viale Certosa e quando sono passati sentendo il crepitio delle armi mi avevano detto ’Sì, sono i giovincelli del fascio che stanno sparando sulle finestre, perché probabilmente si vergognano per vedere che stavano scappando’. E invece l’altro fatto, l’altro fatto invece increscioso che mi ricordo, mi ricordo quello l’ho visto io,l’ho visto non visto fare ma visto dopo, quando hanno incominciato a fare le epurazioni che in Via Poliziano hanno preso la Ferida e Osvaldo Valenti, che erano i due attori, e a un certo momento li hanno fucilati lì sul marciapiede. Quella è stata una cosa che, ecco, io ricordo più, diciamo mi ha fatto più effetto il dopoguerra che la guerra, perché il dopoguerra per esempio c’era l’ingegner, faccio un nome, l’ingegner Gobbato. L’ingegnier Gobbato è un ingegnere dell’Alfa Romeo, bravissima persona, detto da mio padre, guardi, una cosa eccetera, ma era fascista, perché per forza, là tutti da un certo grado in sù, dai capi in sù dovevano essere per forza iscritti al fascio, perché altrimenti vivevano male, no? E a un certo momento si vede che qualcuno ce l’aveva su, dopo l’epurazione, a un certo momento l’hanno trovato in mezzo alla neve, fuori dell’Alfa Romeo, ammazzato eccetera, no? Ecco lì sono cose che si ricordano, si ricordano molto, molto, molto, molto, per far capire un pochetto cosa vuol dire cosa sono le, come si può dire, le vendette personali. E io posso dire che sotto di noi abitava un fascista. A un certo momento è stato preso e portato a San Vittore. Era una brava persona. Dopo un po’ di giorni è tornato a casa. Questo per dire che non era tanto perché uno avesse l’iscrizione al fascio o non al fascio, tutto dipendeva dall’indole della persona, una persona poteva essere malvagia o persona buona, e persona, e questo sono i vari ricordi. Oddio, questa è un’intervista che è partita con un tema ben preciso e cioè incursioni aeree eccetera eccetera, la RAF minga la RAF eccetera eccetera. Niente, potremmo farla un’altra, io ho aggiunto qualche particolare, potrei aggiungere altri particolari interessanti di vita bellica però su un altro tema, cioè il tema: vita bellica di un ragazzo eccetera eccetera. Si potrà fare un domani eccetera perché ci sono dei.
ST: Se vuoi anche ora.
GD: Degli altri, degli altri, ci sono degli altri avvenimenti importanti, per esempio, uno devo dirlo, devo dirlo perché.
ST: Racconta pure tutto quello che vuoi.
GD: E’ più forte di me. Allora, mio zio, anzi se la qui presente eccetera vuole anche con il telefonino filmare, riprendere un attimino quello che sto dicendo eccetera eccetera, mio zio era carrista sui carri armati M11 e diciamo zona di El Alamein, tanto per intenderci, carri armati M11 erano carri armati. L’M, avevano l’arma in torretta, poi furono trasformati in M13 con l’arma nello scafo, cioè praticamente fissa nello scafo, non nella torretta. Ovviamente con i carri armati inglesi bastava un colpo ben assestato che partiva via tutto, erano degli scatolini e io devo dire che mio zio era carrista, lui era capocarro a parte che a capocarro lì erano dentro in due o tre mi sembra, non è che come adesso sono dentro in cinque sei. E in una battaglia, mi ricorderò sempre, mi disse, stavano andando, a un certo momento colpiti da altri carri, a un certo momento un colpo tremendo, deve immaginare il frastuono tremendo eccetera eccetera tutto, a un certo momento, lui, il cannoniere era sopra di lui, lui era nello scafo, il cannoniere, e lui a un certo momento [screams] a cominciato a gridare, prende la gamba del cannoniere e gli dice, uè te, lo chiama per nome, cosa è successo, e gli è rimasto in mano la gamba. Praticamente il colpo aveva portato via la torretta, il cannoncino e mezzo cannoniere. Questo è stato il trauma di mio, al punto che mio zio è saltato fuori dal carro, si è spogliato, si è messo in mutande, si è messo con le mani alzate, e ha sperato che non ci fosse nessuno che lo colpisse. È stato fatto prigioniero. Ecco, questo non è per vigliaccheria, questo per dire come ci si trova. È stato fatto prigioniero, portato in Africa, bla, bla, bla, bla, tutto eccetera eccetera eccetera, rimpatriato, ehm, parte la nave, siluro, tutti mezzi morti, mio zio fortunamente aveva il mal di mare, era andato in coperta e si era addormentato su un rotolo di corde, giusto, e questo l’ha salvato perché è stato buttato a mare, è stato la bellezza di dodici ore a bagnomaria in acqua e poi è stato salvato dagli inglesi. Portato ancora in campo di concentramento, in Africa così, faceva il cuoco, stava benissimo, eccetera, eccetera. Precedentemente, voi dovete pensare che, per la sete, arrivavano a bere l’acqua dei radiatori del carro armato. Non gliene fregava niente se il carro armato poi si fermava, piuttosto che morire di sete bevevano l’acqua. E infatti mio zio poi dopo reduce a casa così, quando è deceduto, è deceduto anche perché aveva lo stomaco un po’. Ma il fatto invece bellissimo, bellissimo, uguale a uno di quelli che mi ricordo, è: io sono sfollato a Castelleone, ritorna mio zio reduce dalla prigionia, siamo in questo paese, la prima cosa che fece, mi ricordo guardi anche, me lo sento adesso, mi prende, mi porta fuori in campagna, c’era una roggia che si chiamava la Seriola, si chiama la Seriola, è un affluente del fiume Serio che incrocia sopra la Seriola, ci sono dei canali in cemento per portare l’acqua, eh cosa fanno, mica possono, allora facevano i canali, fanno i canali in cemento. E c’era uno di questi canali in cemento con dentro l’acqua corrente che se la Seriola era non so a diciotto gradi, lì l’acqua sarà stata a dodici gradi, forse a dieci. La soddisfazione di questa persona, reduce, arriva a casa, saluta i parenti, la prima cosa che fa, prende il Gianni, che ero io, andiamo in campagna, andiamo alla Seriola, ci spogliamo e in mutande dentro a bagnomaria nella corrente, a sentire quest’acqua fresca, fresca, freddissima, gelata. Io a un certo momento seguivo lo zio, e, cioè vabbè, non è che, mi piaceva, mi piaceva il fatto, non tanto perché io sentivo freddo ma io mi ricordo la soddisfazione di questo uomo a essere al suo paese, vivo, e immerso nell’acqua gelida, bella corrente, che avrà sognato non so per quanti anni, per quanti anni, per quanti anni. Bellissimo, bellissimo, sono dei fatti questi che sono, sono indimenticabili, indimenticabili, indimenticabili. E io torno a dire, la mia memoria ormai è quella che è: non mi ricordo quasi cosa ho mangiato a mezzogiorno, però questi fatti qui sono indelebili nella mia mente e mi fa tanto, tanto, tanto piacere perché io, come tutti i vecchi, chissà quante volte le ho già raccontate a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, magari annoiandoli anche, mi fa piacere che questa volta così ho potuto lasciarli a una persona che magari ne può far tesoro, insieme ad altre testimonianze.
ST: Volevo farti un’ultimissima domanda.
GD: Sì. Dica.
ST: MI parlavi appunto dell’attivitò partigina di tuo papà. Lui in fabbrica era sabotatore quindi? Cosa?
GD: Sì, ah allora, [laughs], a un certo momento, dovete pensare anche questo: quando si parla di sabotaggio, sabotaggio non vuol dire mettere un ordigno esplosivo, far saltar per aria qualcosa eccetera. Sabotaggio c’è anche il sabotaggio intelligente. Il sabotaggio intelligente, che è molto pericoloso perché può essere frainteso come un finto sabotaggio. Cioè, lui essendo un capolinea perciò a un certo momento aveva anche una responsabilità verso gli operai, doveva stare attento anche che gli operai non facessero delle cavolate di loro iniziativa, però loro a un certo momento, se c’era, a un certo momento avevano capito che c’erano dei pezzi che facevano, che non c’entravano niente coi motori Alfa Romeo, erano dei pezzi che venivano fatti poi incellofanati tutti, oliati, eccetera, erano pezzi di V1, venivano mandati in Germania. E mi ricordo perché me ne portò a casa anche qualche dopo la guerra erano rimasti in magazzino, e mi diceva: ‘vedi, questi qui sono pezzi che facevamo per lavoro’, in modo che potete immaginare il controllo dei tedeschi come era, [makes a rhythmic noise], com’era pressante, no, eccetera, in modo che bisognava stare attenti di, se c’era da fare mille pezzi, cercare di farne ottocento, non cento, però ottocento, insomma duecento meno. Per fare questo, le macchine dovevano andare non troppo bene, però non potevano essere manomesse col dire ‘Ah io faccio bruciare il motore elettrico, la macchina non va più!’. No, deve essere sempre il solito bullone semisvitato, il solito dado che manca, il solito filo che si è spelato e ha fatto un po’, e non fa più contatto ma basta riagganciarlo e la macchina riparte, però intanto si perdono le ore, eccetera eccetera, ecco questo era stato fatto, questo mi raccontava che loro sabotaggio ne facevano, però era un sabotaggio, infatti non c’è mai stato in Alfa Romeo una rappresaglia e che erano curati perché, dovete pensare che uno degli azionisti dell’Alfa Romeo era Benito Mussolini, figuriamoci no. Eh, e questo è quello che mi raccontava dei sabotaggi che facevano quando si erano accorti che facevano i pezzi per la V1. E io li ho visti, bellissimi, tutti incartati in carta cellofan, tutto oliato, tutto per bene in scatolette, tutti, sì. Questo, ecco l’unica cosa di sabotaggio che posso dire è questo, altro non saprei. Abbiamo finito? Finito? Alla prossima puntata.
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Title
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Interview with Giovanni Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
Giovanni Delfino was at first evacuated to the Cremona area, where he could see the glow of the distant bombings. He then came back to Milan only to witness a bomb nearly missing his house and killing factory workers. He describes the gruesome sight of undertakers picking up maimed bodies and scattered humans remains: the scene was so shocking that he avoided meat for a while. He recalls wartime episodes: being hurled into a cellar by the blast wave and landing on a pile of sand; stealing pumpkins from a nearby plot and covertly baking them in a ruined house oven; searching for stamps in a bomb crater; the public execution of the actors Osvaldo Valenti and Luisa Ferida; an act of kindness of a German soldier and post-war revenges. He retells his father’s wartime experiences as Resistance runner and Alfa Romeo factory worker: slowing down war-related production; manufacturing V-1 parts destined to Germany, a description of the factory shelter. He mentions his uncle’s wartime experience as tank man, mentioning harsh conditions, a gruesome combat episode in North Africa, surviving torpedoing and being picked up by the Royal Navy.
Creator
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Sara Troglio
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-10-29
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:41:14 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ADelfinoG171029
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Cremona
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Resistance
shelter
V-1
V-weapon