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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/331/3491/PSouthwellDE1603.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/331/3491/ASouthwellDE160424.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Southwell, Don
Donald Edward Southwell
Donald E Southwell
Donald Southwell
D E Southwell
D Southwell
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Donald Edward "Don" Southwell (b. 1924 - 2019, 423987 Royal Australian Air Force), documents including a navigation chart, and six photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 463 and 467 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Don Southwell and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Southwell, DE
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DES: [unclear] have you?
AP: My little question sheet.
DES: Oh, good, [unclear] you should have given it to me before.
AP: No, no, no.
DES: [laughs]
AP: So what I do, uhm, because of this little adapter, if I unplug it, the careful tuned thing dies and it gets embarrassing cause it never works. So, instead I have to plug in earphones, so that I can check cause this is a little splitter. I can plug in earphones so that I can listen to it, because if I just try on the speaker, it goes out the earphones so, anyway. It works now, that’ the most important thing, I’ve had a couple of interviews where I had to use the little microphone built in here cause I never know if this thing’s working. Very very [unclear].
DES: I didn’t know there was a mike in those. See, I use one of those all the time. [unclear]
AP: Well, some of them, some of them do, so there is actually a little camera up here, there is a little microphone there, so it is like for web cam, is not for very good quality and it picks up all the noise that’s around, this seems to be more, uhm, localised to adjust your voice, which [unclear] in the recording. I did one of those with a bloke, uhm, Jack Bell, who, he was shot down in Libya, uhm, he’s 98, he was shot down in Libya in 1942 and spent the rest of the war as prisoner, ’43, very early [unclear].
DES: Ah, prisoner.
AP: 42 [unclear]
DES: In Germany?
AP: Uhm, in Italy and then in Germany.
DES: Ah.
AP: Uhm, and the house next door was actually being demolished at the time we did the interview. In the background you can hear a little bit of it, but not very much. So, for a twenty dollar E-bay special, they are pretty good. Anyway, if you are comfortable and ready to [unclear]
DES: Yeah.
AP: All this is, as you know, IBCC interview, uhm, basically we just have a chat. Uhm, I’ve got a sort of list of questions to get us started, but basically I’ll let you run and we go wherever we go and then we might come back and fill in gaps, all that sort of stuff.
DES: You edit it. Yeah.
AP: Yeah, uhm, we just go until one of us begs for mercy basically. I know what you are like, so it could be for a while [laughs].
DES: No, no, no, it’s not right. No, I, whenever this comes up and I’m in a group, I know the people who’ve got all the interesting stories. I’ve been doing this since Australia all over.
AP: No, I.
DES: Down in, [unclear] I’m gonna write him a letter too, but, uh, Ian McNamara and uh he was, uhm, I was all, I did directing, at, down there, I got the, we got this bloke and got this bloke, got that bloke, got that bloke, he’s gonna get all interesting blokes, you know, I knew [unclear] too long [laughs] and they didn’t want me [laughs] Yeah.
AP: Very good. Anyway, uhm, so, look, the shortest interview I’ve done went from forty five minutes long to three and a half hours or so, you know, whenever we get, we get, it’s quite ok. As I said, there’s a list of questions to sort to start of, so
DES: Forty five minutes, [unclear]
AP: That’s very short one, that was very hard because I had to keep asking questions to. Uhm, my favourite one.
DES: You’d might have to do that.
AP: We’ll see what happens when I ask the first question, that’s always the same question I start with and once the opening response went for about ten words, the longest one has been an hour and fifty before I had to say anything else. Which
DES: [unclear]
AP: It’s astonishing, it’s really really good. Anyway, so, uhm, I start off with a little spiel, so, kick off with that now, just to sort of set the time and the place, uh, so, we are recording and it looks good. So, this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Don Southwell, who was a 463 Squadron navigator at the tail end of World War Two. Interview is taking place at Don’s home in St Ives in Sydney, it’s the 24th of April, I should know that, it’s their [unclear] day, my name is Adam Purcell. Uhm, so, as usual, Don, we will start with the normal question, can you tell me something of your early life, growing up, what you did before the war.
DES: Yes, I can certainly do that. Ehm, I was born in Croydon, in New South Wales, in number 10, Hardidge [?] Street as a matter of fact and I was the third child of my mother Cathy. Ehm, I had my brother Brian, my sister and myself, we were four years between each of us and we lived in Croydon, in Sydney. My father died when I was thirty, when he was thirty five and my mother brought us all up to the [unclear], my, I went to school in [unclear] High school and I had, oh I had a job when I left high school. I was, uhm, my first job was at, uhm, RKO Radio Pictures and I was there for about eighteen months and uhm, my mother thought that this picture business wasn’t the sort of place that [laughs] her son should be spending his career in. So, she started to work on various people and I finished up with a job at the MLC. At the MLC, at this particular stage, they only took you with the leaving certificate. My mum couldn’t afford to keep me on the leaving, so, while my brother and sister went to Fort Street High School and did the leaving, uhm, my mum couldn’t afford it. Anyway, we, I went to RKO Radio Pictures and we, uhm, I lasted there and, uhm, I got the job at the MLC and my sister actually worked and that’s how I probably had a little bit of influence and they didn’t want to appoint me first of all but I reached the stage where there weren’t getting many men in because of the war and the war had started and this was in 1941. And so, uhm, I was very fortunate to get that job because I remind there laws about 90 and that’s not a jag either, this is quite true and I [unclear], I have to write, yeah, uh, I was there for eighteen months and the war came and I’d already enlisted, I’d already joined the air training corps, it was 24 Squadron at Ashfield and under control of squadron leader Whitehurst and he had the grads there and we did all the courses for the air training corps and I was also an ARP warden on my bike and I had an ARP band on my arm, patrolling the streets at night to make sure the people were keeping to the blackout rules. I used to sit in those, sit at the top of the town hall at Ashfield and looking for [laughs] Japanese planes coming over. We didn’t get any Japanese planes but we had to report all things that were going in there and then I got the call up for the army. Because I was eighteen the army called me up and because I was in the air force, I had already been in the air training corps it didn’t make any difference so I went up to the infantry training battalion at Dubbo in central New South Wales and, uhm, I was there for about three weeks, while the rifle regiment came in on a motorbike and looking for [unclear] and took me back to the, you know, the orderly room, I was put on a train to Sydney, I was discharged from the army and sent down to Woolloomooloo. In Woolloomooloo was the air force, uhm, recruiting depot and there we did the medical tests and so forth and I was then posted off and I to number nine Glebe Island [?], which is a wharf in Sydney, I went in as an aircrew, I was called, the air force had so many people for aircrew that they couldn’t cope with them at a particular time and they made us air crew guards and I served for three months in Sydney, there’s an aircrew guard, some of them got posted all the way from New South Wales but I was fortunate enough, I caught number nine Glebe Island, where we guarded little beds, belonged to the air force and so forth and we also did jobs working on the wharves and I was part of the secret war people talk about, that the wharfies continually being out on strike and so forth and they asked the, they sent one of us down to do various jobs on the wharves because later all the supplies were going up to New Guinea, was on a ship called the Marino and it belonged under contract to the air force and now, the wharfies were pilfering stuff from this convoys that were going up to the, the trips up in New Guinea, they were pilfering stuff there and so we had a, we were put, what do you call it? A revolver, a Smith and Wesson revolver around their waists and I did stay for one night, I’d be inside the wharf for one day, inside the wharf in the stores where they had all the stuff there laying. We had a guard on the door, a guard on the, uhm, where the crane came down and picked the, uhm, supplies up, one on top on board the ship and one down in the hold. And we virtually stopped the pilfering in the, but there was a great war against the wharfies in those particular days but a very interesting book has been written about the secret war and it’s not only happened there, but it happened in the army and all around the place. So, that was just a little side set up, while I was waiting to go to aircrew. I was then called up to number 2 ITS in Bradfield Park, to go and do my initial training school and, uhm, so began my career in the air force. Then, do you want me to go further?
AP: Yeah, can you keep going as [unclear].
DES: I’m in the air force then, ok.
AP: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Absolutely.
DES: We’re in Bradfield Park and Bradfield Park was the centre of two ITS and we did the normal parades on the [unclear] rid marches, uhm, we did cross country runs, we did all sorts of subjects that were pertinent to air crew and so forth, meteorology, all that sort of business and we, uhm, that took us about three weeks to do that and then I was categorised as a pilot. Cause I wanted to be a pilot because my brother was a pilot and so they made me a pilot. They sent me off to number 8, I think it is number 8, EFTS at Narrandera and so began my career, started my career as a pilot. The time limit for getting through, through the school was you had to go solo in twelve hours, now came twelve hours and I hadn’t gone solo and the, uhm, my instructor said; ‘Come on, Don, we gotta get you through this’ and we were operating from a little satellite area, outside of Narrandera, he said you gotta go up and go solo today [laughs]. So, I worked out all what I had to do in the circuit and so forth and I went up on the, took off, made a nice take off but I got the wind changed and then [laughs], I didn’t know the wind had changed and I’m doing the circuit on the basis of when I took off, I did the left-hand circuit and so forth and coming, all of a sudden there is a Tiger Moth coming up beside me, it was my instructor and he was pointing down to the wind sock and I didn’t know what he was talking about, you know, so I didn’t, I just went up and landed, I did a beautiful crosswind landing, it was a good crosswind landing but that’s the last time I, I think I lasted for another half an hour or so flying and then they decided that I, you know, I hadn’t gone in twelve hours, didn’t look like it, so they scrubbed me, I was scrubbed and that was a terrible thing to happen to me, to be scrubbed, I wanted so much to be like my brother who could fly before the war. And, so, uh, I was then, I thought, oh, I’ll have it now the air crew but they transferred me. The boy that got a B in mathematics 1 and mathematics 2, the intermediate, they transferred me to embarkation depot as a navigator and so, but I, and then I stayed at the, I came from Narrandera back to Sydney and I stayed there at the embarkation depot and uhm, just as on the side, we used to, get my [unclear] at Burwood, that was a [unclear] about twenty minute train ride from Chatswood, we used to have a night down, tucked down under the barbed wire, get down a lady game driver, was not a lady game driver this near, walk up to take off, picked to be kept, seen the fiver air crew, when I say we there were a lot of fellows doing this, and we get, I get the train to Han, I spend the night at Ham (or Han), get out of bed at about five o’clock, then come back and up [unclear] at five o’clock ready for parade. And so that, that didn’t go on for long of course, but I did my, that was our waiting game but of course, we were going overseas an therefore we couldn’t leave Australia until we were nineteen, that was a government rule, they just couldn’t, you couldn’t leave, you couldn’t get out, be transferred out of Australia unless you were nineteen. So, I kept going, I was before I turned nineteen, I went to embarkation depot, so I kept [unclear] just about every day reminding them that I was, I’ll be nineteen on the seventeenth of April. Anyway, to cut a long story short, we were bound on a train up to, from Central Railway, we went up to Queensland and transferred to Kalinga and the army came, was a big army came and we slept in tents, oh, by the way, the train trip was terrible, we were in, we had to sit up or some fellows were sitting up, lying down on in the luggage racks upstairs but we had a terrible trip that night, that train, they put us like cattle in there, and so we got up to Brisbane to Kalinga and we had to wait there for our ship and that was somewhere around the first or second of July in 1943, ’43, yeah ’43, and we uhm, one night we had the cars or the truck all arrived and took us down to the boat, was the Noordam, was the United States army transport going back to San Francisco, empty or as empty, except for us air force, because they’ve been bringing all those hundreds of thousands of American troops over to Australia for the Pacific War and uhm, so uhm, we set sail from Brisbane heading or Morton Bay and then shortly about two or three hours out from Brisbane we [unclear] and we wonder what we were doing because of the Japanese submarines and all that sort of thing and it was the, only about three or four days before, or, yeah must have been before, we have to because the Japanese had sunk the hospital ship, the, the, the, the, because they sunk one of their hospital ships and we had two minutes of silence we expected to be torpedoed [unclear] and we headed on our way to, I think it took us about eighteen days to get to San Francisco and never been past Hornsby, past Wollongong, never seen the Blue Mountains, I hadn’t been out to the parks to the, in the [unclear] and to Dubbo in the army and, uhm, here I was, just coming into San Francisco harbour and so I made sure I was at the front of the ship and I never left that ship till about two o’clock in the afternoon, we came by, saw the Golden Gate bridge [unclear] I was nineteen years of age and we heard the, we saw the [unclear] prison and the San Francisco bridge and we landed at Oakland and from there we were put on a train and sent up to, up the uhm, West Coast of America, uh, to Vancouver, where we switched trains for our trip on Canadian national Railways, was a steam, was an old-burner train and we went to, went on our way through the Canadian Rockies to Edmonton and slightly north of Calgary at and the thing that strikes us, was the difference in travelling in Australia in the cattle trucks, where we had, uhm, they weren’t there for our Americans in those days but they were there for Americans were waiting on us, we had sleepers, everything was laid on, the Canadian people, the Canadian government were fantastic, and here we were, we were only leading aircraftsmen, we weren’t even sergeants, and so anyway, we got to Edmonton, I went to the, uhm, manning depot, manning depot and I have a big photo in my home here of the, uhm, on one of our parades, you can pick me out in the [unclear], we had the morning [unclear], you can pick out the Australians because of their blue uniforms, all the rest wore khaki, was in summertime, but anyway, you could pick us out, pick me out with the manning depot and then I was transferred from there, which was just across the road, really, to number 2 AOS Edmonton, that’s where I did my navigation course. My first trip on navigation course was a real, [laugh], was a real did last as far as I was concerned but I’ll tell you about it. We, uhm, I had a, uhm, another navigator, we were flying Avro Ansons and, well, just digress slightly on our Avro Ansons and then poor our navigator had to wind the wheels of the Anson, Avro Anson up, a hundred and forty-nine times to get the wheels up, that was their job for, just straight on take-off. Anyway, we went on from this first navigation trip, I had a second navigator with me, who was supposed to be giving me fixes and that sort of thing and I got lost and so while I was suggesting we do, the pilots by the way were all civilians, they were not in the air force, they were under civilian contract and that was [unclear] Canada and, uhm, Maxi Titlebomb his name was and he suggested we get out and have a look at the railway sign [laughs] so we went down to the railway station and were at a sort of place called Wetaskiwin, not far out of Edmonton, but it was Wetaskiwin so I proceeded to [unclear] I knew where I was, I got me air plucked for Wetaskiwin and went up and we continued on our course, I expected to be scrubbed straight off on that score but I wasn’t, no, they didn’t, was the best thing that ever happened to me because I made a mistake on my first trip, you were never, the navigators rule was never to drop your air plot and I dropped me air plot because if you kept your air plot [unclear] end your life to get a position, make some sort of, where you think it was but you, you’d always got the opportunity to do that and, so a navigator never had to, should never drop his air plot. But anyway I finished up, was about six months course, was about six months and we, incidentally we had to, people talk about the weather these days, it was forty degrees, one night it was forty degrees below zero, now was in Fahrenheit was thirty-two degrees and so was seventy-two degrees of frost. We had to warm the aircraft up in the hangers before we went out and we had winds, sometimes we had headwinds where we were going backwards up in the north part of Canada [laughs], you know, very, very frightening for a nineteen year old [laughs] that didn’t know a lot about navigation, but we got through all of it and we, I finished up with a reasonable max coming out of my course, I was always better at the air plot than I was, I always had trouble with my theory things, wasn’t very good on the theory but I was, even if I say so I was reasonable as a navigator. And so we got our wings there and was around December 1943 and I haven’t been out to find many [unclear] since I came across my fellows book called Navigator Brothers the other day and I wrote to the author, because in there was a photo of one of the group that was having their passing air parade, cause a big deal the passing air parade, the Canadians really put on all their pomp and ceremony for their passing air parade. The, uhm, uh, yes, we got our wings and we proceeded then to go to, uhm, to uhm, we’d being posted to Montreal [unclear] I just had a thought, we went to Montreal and we had to wait a bit to go over to England and, you know, during my stay in Montreal, we stayed at a place called the Sheen, we were sent off for six weeks up to a ski lodge, so they didn’t have a boat to take us over to England so they sent us, was about thirty of us, we were all sent up to a ski lodge, luxurious place for, you know, a couple of weeks, two or three weeks, we learned to ski, we learned to use the tennis rackets on the feet to walk in the snow, we learned to ice skate, to do all sorts of things, it was wonderful. Anyway, we got back from, we went back to the Sheen and I found out that my brother, was, uhm, who was a pilot in the Middle East and an instructor at Lichfield, which would probably entirely they said to be Bomber Command.
AP: Absolutely.
DES: But he, uh, I found out he was coming over on his way home to Australia having completed his tour, he was transferred back to Australia but on his way he had to go, he was [unclear] to fly back with a brand new Liberator and Bryan was in New York with his crew, but they’d been flying Liberators although a lot of these fellows who did this were Lancaster pilots, cause there’s two hundred of them eventually, and then Bryan and I we shared a room in Belmont Plaza Hotel in New York for a couple of days. Then he went on his way home or to California, I should say, where he did three months before he flew off back to Australia, If you like I might talk about that later on. But, then I went back to Montreal and we then got advised that a ship was waiting for us in Halifax, so we did a night trip to Halifax from Montreal and we joined the maiden [?] vessel called, the maiden [?] vessel called the Andes, was a flat bottom boat, a, yeah, a 20000-tonner I suppose, but it was very fast and on that boat we had a complete Canadian armoured division, were ten thousand fellows with their tanks and about a hundred aircrew, [unclear] pilots joining there, there were navigators, there were wireless operators, there was bomb aimers, all been trained in Canada and sending us all over and so we went over there on our own, we didn’t go in a convoy, we went on our own, took us about seven days, we went up towards the North Pole and [unclear] in Liverpool but we didn’t have any, uhm, we didn’t have any [unclear] things happening to us except that we, was a [unclear] taking more than seven days but it was a fast trip was what we did and we weren’t allowed about decks at night time, so, at night time you couldn’t go up on deck no matter what it was because people had a habit of lighting cigarettes and submarines could catch you but some of these, the Queen Elizabeth and the Queen Mary, they were too fast for the submarines so they, we zig-zagged all the way across and we arrived in Liverpool and uhm, we uhm, got, we arrived nearly as the morning met by the salvation army, they gave us food and so forth, we went in the big tunnel out of Liverpool and came down to, went down to Brighton PDRC and that’s where I started my first, uhm, flying, my first events in England.
AP: What did you?
DES: Now.
AP: What did you think of wartime England when you first got there?
DES: When?
AP: As a nineteen year old Australian, you are now in wartime England. What?
DES: What I thought of it? Well, uhm, when I first got there I, we went by train down to, we skirted to London, we went to, Brighton was a lovely place but, we were, there was the IFF that had taken over the uhm, the uhm, the Metropole and the, the Metropole and the, the two big hotels, I have just forgotten their names but it was where Margaret Thatcher was blown up later on, she escaped the bombing near in Brighton some years later but we went straight down so, we didn’t see much of the, uhm, the countryside. We were billeted out from the hotels, the [unclear] were billeted out in homes quite near the hotel but we didn’t see any great, you know, people had their coupons, that sort of thing and I saw a lot of it after on my first leave to London, then was when I, you know, realised how terrible things were but there in Brighton, where we were, all the beaches were, they’re all pebble stones not sand all the beaches were mined so you couldn’t go there. If anybody knows Brighton as the Brighton pier, and then it had been chopped in half purposely and the bottom half was used by the air force to, but we used to go and gonna get paid there, we used to go and collect the money on a Thursday or whatever it was, and so uhm, we didn’t see, uhm, in all fairness, you know, I didn’t see, you know, it was, I wouldn’t say, you know, nasty looking, you know, there wasn’t, there was no visible damage that I saw down in Brighton but, my mother and father both came out from England in 1912 so I had relations to go to in England and so I was, uhm, my first leave I had when I went to, I went to a place called Maidstone where my mother was born and uhm, I went to see uncle Ted and auntie Gladys who became [unclear] mother while I was there and I stayed with them and they had a big two story home. He was the general manager of Fremlin’s Brewery, which was a big brewery [laughs] in London and Maidstone, and was a white, the emblem was a white elephant on all the London busses and he was the general manager of this [unclear] and so naturally I was well looked after. If they wanted some meat, if they wanted a steak or some, which was very rare, she takes it, make sure you keep the uniform on and we’ll go down to the butchers today and she, he’s my cousin from Australia you know and they’d toss out some special food for us. But uhm, they seemed to live pretty well you know I think they were, you had to be careful with petrol rationing and that sort of thing but in the group that I sort of as, you know, these people were part of, put in mind, you know, reasonably well off as people and, but she was a real mother to me, she used to take me round on, I always used to go there on leave but she used to take me round and onto, show me the Rochester cathedral or Ramsgate, where my mother used to go and swim as she was a kid and so forth, you know, and I’ve met all my relations but I, I don’t have any, it’s only when later on I went down when I was in the middle of the buzz bombs and the V2 rockets that I realised, you know, how terrible that, uh, what the Germans had done to our people here in London and, you know, when you see streets that are just completely, [unclear] smashed, it was quite something but generally speaking I can’t say that I, you know, I go shopping in London and I, one of the girls there I used to take out, Elisabeth Fulligan, she was a solicitors clerk in London and I used to see her every now and then when I was on leave but I generally speaking, you know, the, I go into a restaurant but we might have a bit difficulty in getting decent sort of stuff but, you know, I can always get eggs and bacon or some I think we had horse meat at some places in London but I didn’t know we were eating horse meat until somebody told us but. Uh, all I can say is about, the people there were marvellous [unclear] and if I can just get back, the people in Canada I missed them, I spent a lot of time when I was in Canada doing my course, one of the fellows on my course was Harry Thompson and he was a Canadian, he lived in 1065 107 Street and we used to go to weekends there and you know, they couldn’t do, his parents and their friends had us all out to their places and we go, they take us to their places and, you know, you can never pay for them, they , it was fantastic in what they did for us and I had, as I say, I had relations in England and they are all the same and I, I think that I was fortunate in that I had relations to go and stay with, all our on the other side of that I missed seeing a lot of England, I used to go down on leave to Wesperdale [?] , good to be when I was there, I was enjoying myself immensely you know, I didn’t drink beer, I drank cider and that was worse. I can always remember going to a Rotary club meeting in Maidstone and they introduced me to a sergeants household and I had to get up and say who I was and I didn’t drink beer and I thought I’d have some cider and I think I was silly as anything because I didn’t realise cider was, I any, I didn’t know much about the air force and before we finished I’d like to speak about to something about the air force that I would like to say but I answered that question there and that’s about the best I can do about the people and the conditions and that sort of thing.
AP: So.
DES: Except that I had a good time.
AP: Well, that’s the important thing.
DES: When I was on leave that was, all my leave [unclear], that’s when you notice these things.
AP: So, from Brighton, where did you go next?
DES: Oh, ok, from Brighton my first port of call was, I think it was 29 OTU, operational training unit at Bruntingthorpe, which was near Leicester and that’s, no, I’m sorry, that’s not where I went, I went to the advanced flying unit in Freugh in Scotland. There’s a good story about Freugh and that’s where we did our first lot of real navigation. We did all trips, day trips out to the Mull of Kintyre, we’re up right in the north of Scotland, no the north, but half way of Scotland, and we were doing all these trips. You went over pretty close to Ireland, we’re doing all these marvellous trips, you know, that’s where we really learned to be navigators, really into, we got our wings in Canada, but this where we really did the real thing and there we spent, West Freugh is near Stranraer and Stranraer was the main port of call when you go over to Northern Ireland and now we are on the maps, normal maps, you can find them on google now but on the normal maps you buy, you will never see West Freugh, I’ve asked many a Scottish bloke about West Freugh but they can never find West Freugh, they can only assume it was probably a farm of some sort but they had especially for that, they made it [unclear] because it was flying, we’re on Avro Ansons again, we were flying Avro Ansons there at West Freugh, they’re a two-engine aircraft, and they had two navigators on board and then we, uhm, so, I think from a point of view of a AF advanced flying unit, by the way, it was number 4 [unclear] which is [unclear], we stayed there about, uhm, oh, we didn’t stay there long, we stayed there from July ’44 to the end of July, early July, 5th of July to the 21st of July and that’s where we did our AFU advanced flying unit . Now, from there, we graduated from there and we were only doing cross country trips and that sort of thing from there. From there we went to 29 OTU at Bruntingthorpe and that’s where what we called crewed up and that’s where we, uhm, we’re all pilots, navigators, wireless operators, correct me if I’m wrong, there was, we didn’t have any engineers cause we didn’t have engineers at that stage we had two air gunners, not certain about if we had all, and the wireless operator and so we all, where we were, we were put in a big room and we were told to find yourself a pilot, navigators find yourself a pilot sort of, so, all was a real PR job, you know, we’d all yeah and there might have been a few drinks [unclear] around too as I say but they all, we were all supposed to be friendly and you wanted to find out if you, you wanted to find you’ll gonna have a team that you could work together with and I, I don’t know how I picked my pilot but I [unclear] [unclear] from [unclear] and was slightly older than me, he’s a big man and he had the biggest hands I’ve ever seen, he was a, he had a grape, not a vineyard, well it was a vineyard but he had dried fruits in [unclear] and now was to sitting behind a big bomber and we had to carry a full bomb load and with his hands gave him a great confidence. But I’ll get back to the Bruntingthorpe now, but we, we got together and we finished up with whatever we had to do and we all then did various cross country fighter affiliation where they send up and you get up in the air find another fighter plane to come and meet you and then attack you and all that sort of thing and all various subjects pertaining to air, Gee, H2S, all that sort of thing and we we’ve been introduced to, that was our navigational aids, air positioning indication, that was another thing we learned all about but that was, an hour on Wellingtons, Wellington bomber, well, they were bombers in the early stage, they were being used for training at this stage now and uhm, the uhm, and so we, when they thought the pilot was satisfactory, off we went then to, let me see, we went to, from to HCU which was the heavy conversion unit and that was our introduction to four-engine aircraft and we caught the Sterling, now said and the, uhm, we were there for a short time, that was just, this was mainly the, the pilot getting used to and the navigator, we were doing more, more uhm, things that we had done before, you know, were dropping bombs and packed us bombs and we were doing long, uhm, long cross countries, uhm, you know, five hours, two hours, that sort of thing and uhm, we, uhm, we’d be when the pilot was satisfactory trained, we were showed off to what we called the Lank finishing skill, it was the Lancaster finishing skill and we were introduced to Lancasters and the, from and that was once again, we all did our own thing with the pilot and he just had to become a professional on that particular type of aircraft and from there we were sent to the squadron. Which was Waddington, which was just a few miles away and, and that was when we started our operational flying.
AP: So, what was your first thought of the Lancaster when you first [unclear]?
DES: Oh, after being on the Sterling [laugh], after being on the Sterling it was marvellous, uhm, yeah, with, uh, yeah because [unclear], the carry under the Lancaster, you know, this was probably the best aircraft that had ever been produced at that time for the duration of the war uh, but everything was, when you are a new pilot on the squadron, you usually get the [unclear] aircraft, but some of them, some of had been there for a while had their own aircraft made sure that they kept their own aircraft, we were not allowed to do this, I was on my first start, we were on one particular type of Lancaster and but everything was so modern and up-to-date, you know for us the Gee was, the navigational instruments were all spot on, you know, we never, I don’t know who did the, to this day I don’t know who did all the mechanics and the [unclear], our aircraft was already, it was one of the ground crew base but, you never saw them at work, at least I never saw them at work, unless something really went wrong but yeah, the gap at the back steps of the Lancaster and to walk along the, yeah, it’s try I suppose when I first went up there, you wonder, Gee, where am I going, you had to walk over a big spare but then again I had my own room, well, area, it was just a small area with a black curtain around it but I had a nice desk, had the astro[unclear] up on top which would flashed the various maps down on the and the stars onto the table, everything was spot on and you know, we came to expect, we’re on a Lancaster, we’re on the best we had and that was the feeling that I had, that I was very, very fortunate, you know, some people like the Halifax , you know, but, you know, they say, I love the Halifax and so forth but we just happened to, uh, it had such a good reputation and such a wonderful aircraft and could carry so many more bombs than anyone else. Uh, you know, I think that, uhm, that was my feeling about my first, but I was amazed, really. I was in awe. Yeah.
AP: So, you then go to Waddington from, what’s it, I think, I saw Skellingthorpe in [unclear]?
DES: Yes, I did, I went to Skellingthorpe I thought that was after. I went to Waddington [unclear].
AP: [laughs]
DES: No we didn’t get to Skellingthorpe.
AP: You didn’t get to Skellingthorpe? [unclear] after.
DES: No, we went to Skellingthorpe after the war finished. We went to Skellingthorpe and we were all transferred to Skellingthorpe and we were, uhm, we had our final passing air parade in August, August 1945. We had our passing air parade.
AP: So, alright, we will get back to Waddington then.
DES: Yeah, get back to Waddington.
AP: Yeah [laughs]. Uhm, where and how did you live on the Squadron at Waddington?
DES: Oh, well now, Waddington was a permanent station in England, a permanent RAF station. It was, it had been there for many years and it consisted of what you would call apartment-type of accommodation, it was brick, big brick flats and in that we’d all, the officers, my pilot now was a flight sergeant right through but as soon as he went to the Squadron, he got his commission and that was the rule then he got his commission. And so he went to the officer’s mess and they had their own specific area and we had our own, we were in dormitories and, uhm, I had, I sort of, well, I was a flight sergeant a lot of that time but I was regarded as a bit senior, not senior but, I seemed to be the one that organises for when and what we are doing outside out of the, you know, for our recreation cause my pilot didn’t smoke or drink and that is marvellous, [unclear] didn’t smoke or drink, he was young too but, but he was a great one for, uhm. He was really wrapped in aircraft, which he should be I know, no, but he gathered at the end of the runway if we weren’t flying a particular day on the squadron he’d go off at the end of the runway and watch them all take off and that sort of thing, he was, he was a wonderful bloke and then he took a great interest in everything, but he. My brother was the same, he would do all that sort of thing, you know, they’re really wrapped but others might be doing something else, but, we used to, well, there were various things we could do, I used to take them down to the, we used to go down to The Horse and Jockey, which is still there, the hotel, but it was a hotel in the , you know, we could go and have something to eat down there, or we’d have a few [unclear], play darts, [unclear] balls and that sort of thing and there a lot of our lot, we had pushbikes and we could pushbike down to the Horse & Jockey and that was in the little town of Waddington, was only a little place and uhm, uh, a lot of our time was spent going around and then we’d have, every six weeks we’d have leave. But, sticking to Waddington, uhm, you know, we had a lot to do, we had dances, the west [unclear] we would have dances all night, yeah, we’re all, uh, I reckon that we were all well looked after and they really were, I’ve recently been back to the Horse & Jockey, and, you know, they are so pleased to see you and they were like that in England. Most, I think of most of them were, I’m not being a snob but I think most of them were pretty good party fellows, there were not a lot of drunks, gave me a favorite to drinks, we had a, we had right a bite back and a [unclear] who used to stop us every now and then and say: ‘Aye, aye, aye!’ but they wouldn’t do anything to us. They were quite, uhm, quite pleasant. But I’ve really found that the people there, I didn’t get involved in anything much outside [unclear] leave I had relations to go to [unclear] wonderful, cause I had my mother’s side and my father’s side so I had relations of both so [unclear] he was from, my father was from Maryport in Cumberland, right up in the north and I have been there a few times since. I met my grandfather that I had never seen and a bit quite of the other relations but the grandfather was the closest, he was a tenner and there was gaslight, there was no electricity, was gaslight, and he, I had to sleep with him, he had no other accommodation there was I think he had a family gone but there wasn’t a very big place and I had forgotten he had, I was [unclear] he was one of six brothers, my father was one of six brothers but later on I found out that my grandmother had fourteen kids so that meant we, in the last few years I’ve been chasing up all these people we’ve met, since I didn’t know we had but sticking to the, uhm, on the Squadron, yeah, we, uhm, I don’t think I had much more [unclear] than I, I had just a normal [unclear], I used to go to church at the Lincoln Cathedral every now and then, I used to go to Southwell. In case you don’t know that Southwell was six miles south out of Newark in Robin Hood territory and it’s a cathedral, it’s got a cathedral so it’s a city, it’s only a small place but it’s a city of Southwell, although they call it Southwell, and so I went there a few times, I was made very welcome and incidentally the Southwells in Australia is one of the biggest families in Australia but, and I am connected with them but they’re in Canberra and they, their offshoots are all, uhm, there is an enormous lot of them, probably the biggest family in Australia, the Southwells. You might, [unclear], but the government gave them a grant in the bicentenary they have their big reunion in Canberra, so there must be some truth in there.
AP: So, you mentioned The Horse & Jockey earlier. Uhm, if you walk into the Horse & Jockey, in wartime, what’s there, what does it look like and what’s going on?
DES: Looks like an old English pub.
AP: Yeah? Funny that.
DES: Yeah, a bit out [unclear] cause I went back a few months again and I hardly knew the place, it had been changed around, they moved a lot of the chimneys out, but I can’t remember getting to a reunion in 1995 at the Horse & Jockey and they had an upstairs everybody could go and we had a great get together that day which was been back on Channel 9 and I was lady in the singing of all the wartime songs in Waddington but it was a real meeting place down, there was another pub we tried [unclear] plus I didn’t drink much but I went to that, oh, I was drinking as at that stage I hadn’t started to drink but that’s another story. My brother, I didn’t mind, now I never drink in our family and my brother on his way back he came up to see me in Montreal at one stage and he said: ‘Would you like a beer?’ And I said: ‘Oh no, I will have a lemonade’. And he said: ‘I will have a beer’. I said, oh, so I didn’t say anything to him. And when since I got back to Montreal, I’ve had a beer and I’ve been drinking beer ever since [laughs]. But, you know, Canada was a funny place for beer because it’s a, they don’t sell beer in a, in those days they didn’t sell beer in a hotel, you had to go into a place that was especially designed and sit down and have a beer but you put salt into the beer to get the gas out of, it was so gassy, that’s another story. But, the Horse & Jockey now, I gonna say now because honestly I’ve forgotten what it was there like but now they have a lot of dart boards around, we played darts and we played balls outside, it was fun, uhm, but it was just, you know, there were members of the public, you know, the people that were working there, we would fraternise with them, they were all friendly with, so, it was generally, it was nice, actually it wasn’t a bad place to go and have a [unclear] and a [unclear]. No, I wouldn’t say that, [unclear] we were [unclear] but more recollections of the Horse & Jockey that was, I said, the crew kept together, I kept the crew together, we were all there together, it was the whole other six of us, there as, that didn’t mean, there was no worry about that but I would like to add that I had [unclear] to my place in about 1950 or 60 and he [unclear] smoked. So, [laughs], [unclear] it’s been a change, he remained a bachelor all his life. But he was wonderful fellow and he was another one, as I say he was very, very keen on, what he did, he took on the training course after the war in [unclear] and he was, he got a medal for that, an RFD or doing something like that, royal returned forces, no, not returned, what’s it, returned something forces decoration? Not returned forces. Anyway, as an RFD, as a, there’s a post normal or medal, but he, he got one of those. But he was a great fellow and he brought us home safely.
AP: [unclear] Alright.
DES: But I had a lot of confidence in him, as I was saying, earlier on, [unclear] blessed hands, they were bigger than mine, I got the tiniest hands you’ve ever seen, mine, my wife’s gloves won’t fit me, you know, they’re my hands, my hands are so tiny, but, yeah, he was, yeah, that’s about it, [unclear].
AP: Yeah, we’re going alright still. So, a little bit more about this daily life in Waddington. The Sergeants Mess, what was that like, what sort of things happened there?
DES: Oh yeah, the Sergeants Mess. Yeah, well, we spend a bit of time there, no, after a trip we do was going to the mess and there’s a lot of, a lot of untoward things went on in the Sergeants Mess and some of the other persons over there, a bit longer than I was, tell some wonderful stories about bringing a donkey into the mess and there’s the Officers Mess and all sort of that. But, we, uhm, I can’t recall, my memory is not that good for the Sergeants Mess. I can, I know what it was like but it was not a place that, you know, we all met there at various stages and had our lunch there and our dinner there and all that sort of thing but, uhm, this never stayed in my mind as being rather relevant to me, I don’t know why but I know we ate there and had our meals there and you know the ordering officer would come round and say: ‘Any complaints?’ [Laughs] Every day in the evening we had our meal there, the ordering officer would come round and say, quite often it was one of the, one of your pilots that, [laughs] you know, was his turn to come over from the officers mess and say: ‘Any complaints?’ What’s the officer, orderly officer, any complaints, I don’t know, that I had many complaints, no, I can’t help, I can’t recall a lot about the Sergeants Mess.
AP: Did 463 and 467 Squadron eat in, did they have their own officer’s mess [unclear]?
DES: No, we were all together, they had their own, the two were there together.
AP: So it was more [unclear] Waddington.
DES: yeah, yeah, yeah. Was Waddington, yeah. Yeah, when we went back to Waddington in, when we went to the Officers Mess there was just one place, yeah, there was only one place, there was 463 and 467, yeah, we got to know each other 463 and 467, as you know 467 was the first Australian Squadron, first Squadron on, uhm ,first was their own Squadron, they were formed in about 1941, something like that and then after they got a big bigger, we wanted to have another Squadron, so 463 grew out of [unclear]? Yeah, [unclear], grew out of [unclear], is it about November or December? ‘43, would that be right? 47 might have been ’42, I think it was ’43.
AP: Yeah, ’43.
DES: Yeah, it was ’43, I think. And so that’s how 463 was. Uhm, and that was under Wing Commander Rollo Kingswood-Smith, who send me off the parade ground for not having a shave. And I was only a young bloke who only shaved about four days a week and I was on, and they sent me off the parade ground for not having a shave. And then later on of course, I’m going ahead of fifty years I became the secretary of 463 Squadron, Rollo was, he is the patron at present, no, he is the patron, I think but he was and he came up to me, oh, I did know him a bit afterwards so. He came up to me and looked at me and said: ‘Oh, Don, you’ve done your shave today’. And days before he died, he said to me: ‘Don, you had your shave today’ and I reminded him when I came back from England but I became quite a good friend of Rollo, when I finished, cause he is really very, very good, he always [unclear], you know, he was a flight commander, no he was a CO, or was a flight commander, whatever he was, he wasn’t a station commander, because that was different from, but he was, he was a 463 commanding officer but he did his trips at the time, he never, he always did his trips, so, he could have quite easily have said, No, I’m going tonight or something like that, but Rollo would always do his trips and never fail. And he was always very good with his, I know, with his writing to people for, you know, lost their and lost their sons and but I believe he was a very strict, he was a very, very strict man, as I say, he was quite different in late years, well, he was, you knew where you stood with him but, and I think he had to be to be the commanding officer at that particular, and we had all walks of life in our, uh, in the air force.
AP: Did 463 Squadron have any superstitions or hoodoos or anything that you are aware of of [unclear]?
DES: Not that I am aware of, I always used to carry my RAF, I had no RAF scarf, always carry my RAF scarf, had to go back one night to get it, but, which I had forgotten, I had to get back but that was only a personal deal I don’t think I was really superstitious about I had to carry my RAF scarf, it was a scarf, it wasn’t a tie, it was a scarf, I didn’t see many of them, I still got mine on my top drawer beside my bed I’ve got my Royal Air Force scarf. I also had my Royal Air Force [unclear] [laughs].
AP: [laughs]
DES: Some [unclear].
AP: We were talking about off tape before we started. Very good. So, you flew nine operations [unclear].
DES: I did nine operations, yep.
AP: Do any of them particularly stand out?
DES: Yeah, was a couple I can have. The trip, uhm, I did to Pilsen. We took off, was a long trip, Pilsen was in Czechoslovakia and it was a long trip and not, we had a couple of hours and now one of our engines went and the skipper said to me: ‘Do you think we can make it?, and I said: ‘Yes, I think so. I think we can take a few short cuts [unclear] we might be able to make it, we don’t tell anybody whatever’. And he said, [skimming through pages of a book], yeah, the uhm, I said: ‘I think I could make it’ and I did a few calculations and even though I say [unclear] I reckon I did a pretty well navigation so I think that was that day because you know you had to be careful if you gonna take any short cuts it couldn’t stand out we were on a track that you were given and as long as you stayed four miles or five miles out of the side of the track you are fairly safe because that’s where all the other aircraft were going, and we were tossing out the silver paper, the Window, that made look as if there are more aircraft out and that sort of thing. But we had to be careful if we went out of it, you could be picked off by the German radar, so you had to be a little bit careful. So, anyway, we got there on time, uhm, we uhm, and uhm, so that was a long trip that I got a bit of praise for by my skipper in the briefing that we went back to and that was about uhm, eight hours and we bombed on three engines. We were diverted when we got back cause we didn’t have much fuel left, uhm, we landed at Boscombe Down that particular night and, uhm, then the next day went back to, uhm, to, uhm, Waddington but uhm, yeah, it was that. And one other night we went to [unclear]. I was in a couple of thousand bomber raids, daylight, we were over Essen and Dortmund and I, we bombed through a cloud there and this was, you realised we were getting towards the end of the war and the master bomber was down below the clouds and he’d come up the cloud, drop the target indicators and go back down again and see how they went and he turned on the RT, the radio telephone and he turned into [unclear] TI by ten seconds or something like that, you know, and he’d be conducting the whole operation from down below. And, so we were just, we just dropped bombs, we didn’t see where they go, we just dropped them on top of the cloud, and that was on the Krupp works at Essen and Dortmund and. But there was another one I was going to mention and we went to [unclear], and uhm, which is just south of Hamburg and the wind changed that particular night and the whole force was all over north-western Europe, we got a little blown away but well, I got a little bit off course, I got to say this, I got a bit off course and we were chased by the German jetfighters, the 263 I think it is? The 263, something like that, the 263? But, we went into a cork, we did have, we were well-trained, went straight away and went into the corkscrew and we did all that, and, cause they can only stay up for about ten minutes and so they, you know, you, if you did your corkscrew properly, probably you were safe so we got out of that but that was, we were picked off there because I got a bit off course. And then I went to uhm, smaller refineries, Bohlen, I went to Bohlen, that was out near Leipzig, for people that might know where Leipzig is, a lot of these synthetic oil refineries were in Eastern Germany and, uhm, we’re at the crossing of the Rhine when the British army were, uhm, crossing the Rhine, uh, we were given the job of bombing Wesel, we were given the job of bombing Wesel and, uhm, which we did and I think it was only, it was only our, you know, our group went that particular night but the British army were on one side of the river and the German side, the Germans were on the other side, and we bombed the other side but we were given a certain time because the British were going into the water at a certain time to go over and I took it with the loss of one life, I think it was in, General Montgomery, Field Marshall Montgomery, he, send the message back to, they brought it over to the loudspeakers the next day on parade, do you want something to eat?
AP: No, thank you.
DES: It was on parade and we were on parade and they read out a message from Montgomery to say how wonderful it was and we did a wonderful job bla, bla, bla, yeah, and uh, yeah that was interesting because you can, if you go to Wesel afterwards it’s quite, you know, I’ve seen some photos of it lately and I think they have rebuilt most of, most of the place. And lastly we did the last operation of the war which was on Tonsberg, which was in the southern part of Norway and we approached it from the North, so it was a long crossing over the North Sea, this was the last operation of the war, on Anzac Day, and with the, we came down the coast, I was coming down from Norway, with Sweden on the left hand side and Sweden was all beautifully lit up, all lit up and the other side was all black, blacked up there was the, Norway which was under the control of the Germans, anyway, we, uhm, that was the last operation of the war and we, uhm, that was bombed successfully but on, if I check forward about fifty years, I was at a funeral and, uhm, of a lady who was of Norwegian birth and the ex-consul of Norway was there and I went and spoke to him and I said: ‘I’ve never been to Norway except on the air’. And he said: ’When were you there?’ I said: ‘Oh, I was there on the 25th of April 1945’ and he said: ‘Well, your aim was pretty good that night’. [laughs] Not at all, so I thought we did pretty well. He said yes. He said, but some of your bombers did bomb the shipyards, some of them went astray and they bombed some of the civilians and he said that all the people of Norway, the war was coming to an end, the 8th of May was the end of the war, the war was coming to an end, they are all thrilled, all happy because everybody knew the armistice was coming on that particular day and he said, now, all the people in the rest of Norway, he said, we were burying our dead and he was very nice about the whole thing and, you know, he is, I got him down as a likely speaker for whoever wants someone to speak about it but, they were very understanding and. So I must really go to France these days, you know, the people in France they were terribly bombed, you know, was, they are thanking you and thanking you and we did an enormous lot of damage but they realised that we had to, that we had to do that for, uhm, sake of winning the war.
AP: So, you mentioned that Messerschmitt, or the jetfighter.
DES: Jetfighter, yeah.
AP: And the corkscrew. So, you are the navigator. You hear corkscrew port go. What happens next?
DES: I have been difficult. Well, we gotta a set of pattern what you got to do the, if the plane’s coming in from the port, you corkscrew port go the rear gunner or whatever the hillside part will do his corkscrew and he’d go down fifteen hundred and he’d turn and he’d go up fifteen hundred feet and it’s quite a ring morale to do but you fly, if you do it properly you fly, you know, a certain course even [unclear] and so, you know, it didn’t do much damage to our [unclear] we didn’t have to make much allowance for an hour in our navigation, if you had to corkscrew port, you, you could just sort of forget about it and just there’s, as long as you weren’t [unclear] too long but generally speaking you flew a net course for this business, all designed to and it was very successful the corkscrew but I, I think we did this about three times I suppose.
AP: What does it feel like?
DES: Oh, I don’t mind, don’t forget we are nineteen years of age there, this was just, this was just wonderful, trusting the aircraft. Oh, of course you were worried a bit about where you were being shot down that goes into it, but generally speaking the corkscrew never, we thought if we did the corkscrew port we would be safe. You’ve got that feeling in your mind that you’d do that, I always remember Redge Boys [?] he was our hero, he was [unclear], he was our navigation leader at Waddington and Redge he did two tours and he said he never believed himself that he’d ever be shot down and he tried to, he despite the fact that the pilot was the chief, he always made sure the crew were all, you know, positive about what we were doing, they were all, they were always convinced that they were gonna get through this. They had this positive attitude that they, you know, and I think it helped, while you’re up there, [unclear], I tried to adopt that attitude that, you know, we all wanted to get home and see the people and I want to get home but, I must admit that, when we were on a bombing run, I used to see, a navigator didn’t have his parachute on, he, you couldn’t work on a desk when, cause we had a chest parachute that fitted on a harness on your chest and you had it sitting beside you. Now, uh, if I was to leave there at my desk, I’d always put my parachute on and I would go, if we were on a bombing run, I would remember the course you got to steer after we dropped our bombs and I’d turn the light out and I’d go up and stand behind the pilot, and watch all the, what was going on and I could then pop down to the rear gunner, near the rear gunner and say, could I have a look at the pilot [laughs] and you’d see the fires and all that sort of thing in the background. But, you know, I felt as if I wanted to be part of the thing so I wanted to see what was going on. Cause everyone else could see what was going on except the wireless operator and what’s the name because we were sitting [unclear] bomb’s gone, you’d have to wait a while, while the photo was taken, away was given course 270 and off we go. And, yeah.
AP: Yes, that’s unusual, most, uhm, most navigators I have spoken to would, you know come up and have a look [unclear] take the head and go, no, don’t ask me to do that [unclear].
DES: Oh, now, that’s, that’s another story. Well, that is. After, a lot of people don’t know about this. But after the war we disarmed, the war had finished and we were disarming with all our, [unclear] disarmed and we had to get rid of all the bombs on the station. So, what they did was we’d [unclear] might have been a couple of weeks, I could look that up but that’s been a couple of weeks, we flew out of Waddington with four bomb loads, headed to the North Sea, about two and a half hours and straight course out, dropped our bombs, they were dropped safe, they weren’ dropped armed but they were dropped safe, and there, I know what the Greenies [?] had signed out because they knew all these thousands of bombs now there was really thousands of us, there was not only our Squadron but every other Squadron was doing this. We go out there and then we come back and if you were above the cloud, we used to have a lot of fun with the pilot with going over the cloud, as if you were low flying. We had some lovely time so, but what I’m coming to is I thought this particular dive [?] was navigation record, no had Gee operator, [unclear], I didn’t done any, I didn’t have to do any strict navigation set up, I, cause I had near position indicators which told me, anyway, we, I thought I’d like to get into the rear turret and I saw [unclear] was the rear gunner and he could come up and sit in the navigation seat and I’d coming in here for a couple of hours, you know. So I trotted off down to the and the [unclear] showed me what to do and [unclear] I couldn’t have gone out of there, couldn’t have gotten there faster, was scared stiff, you know I’d never been because you’re away from the tires of the aircraft, when you are sitting back behind you, so, you are sitting out in the open. You know, you’re away from the aircraft so you feel like it and I think [unclear] having to sit [unclear] on our trip to sit in this thing, you know, you’d be, mind you, these, while our air gunners had had the experience of flying they knew what they’d, you know, they’d got used to it I suppose but me as a person I was scared stiff, I was more scared stiff getting into, getting out of that turret than I was, say, sitting out there in the navigation and bombs, looking down and looking at bombs going off and [unclear] I was scared stiff on that trip. And I had the greatest of admiration for our rear gunner out there, how they could [unclear], and [unclear] you know, I’m not necessarily claustrophobic but I thought oh, Jeez, I couldn’t do this. And I realised how well off I was, because the navigator was lucky I reckon because, as I say, on a ten hour trip you’d have, you had to get a fix every ten minutes or so and, you know, you no sooner that you’d got your fix, you’d plotted it, as you got your fix, you plotted it, you’d make the necessary course, the course change and so forth so If you had to make any change and it took time and the time went quickly this was what the beauty was the pilot was the same, he may be sitting around looking, you know, sitting out on the front [unclear] putting on a [unclear] every now and then, yeah, most of the time but he, and but the navigator had to do and the wireless op was something similar to, he had a lot of work to do, he had to keep the schedules and report back and we had our jobs and our logs don’t forget, as soon as we got back, were handed in to the navigation leader and you were marked as if you were at school and you get 60 percent, or 50 percent or 75. And uhm, you know but this is why we had, oh I must say this as a navigator, that we had marvellous navigator, the navigators were, the Royal Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force, they were wonderfully trained, they, don’t forget, they took as about eighteen months to get into operations, the Americans, I understand can get in as navigating, get in about six weeks training, you know, and that’s not exaggerating, I believe as I say, because some of the B-24s out of Darwin carried, the Americans carried Australian navigators if you look up your history, which is not widely spoken about, but we were well trained and, as I say, we strictly [unclear], we knew our work was big marked anyhow so you had to be, you really gave you a greater incentive to be [unclear] but above all, you know, a ten hour trip might have seemed by far, you know, then, yeah.
AP: VE-day.
DES: Ah, VE-Day. This is all vivid with me, I had wonderful times on VE-day but VE-Day I did three trips to France bringing home, I think it was on VE-Day, yeah, it was on VE-Day, I don’t know if it was three or two we didn’t the next day, you know I did three trips of bringing home prisoners of war, we’d go over in Juvincourt in France and load up twenty five, it was called Operation Exodus and we were out, we load up to twenty five British war, British prisoners of war, they’d been, some of them had been there since Dunkirk in 1940 and the first load we carried, oh, they sit, the twenty five of them sat in the fuselage of the Lancaster on cushions, not seatbelts, uhm, they just had to hang on and [laughs] they just had to sit there and there were thousands of them, we brought out prisoners of war with this Operation exodus by the way, but they were, uhm, It was a wonderful experience, it was one of the greatest experiences of my life, you flew these guys out, they’d been prisoners of war all these years and they, uhm, the first load I carried they were all Sikhs, they were Indians the first lot we carried out. The next load we carried were all obviously from England and it seemed to be most obvious, I made sure that I went down and I got them to come up gradually when the white cliffs of Dover came, got them, and we ferried them up but it was nice and orderly and hear the tears was rolling down their cheeks, you know, was absolutely wonderful to see the, uhm, and they all shook hands when we, uhm, they all shook hands when they got off the aircraft and that was what I did on VE-Day. Now, shortly after VE-Day we had a lot of celebrations and I, you know, I can always remember smoking a cigar, having a few beers, I was Mister Churchill at one stage, you know, was a lot of hilarity and joyness and it was a wonderful feeling, they, you know, all the station was all together and we were all having, officers, ordinary, you know, the airmen, we were all together having a and they’d put on some wonderful [unclear] there and at that particular time and that’s my, I worked on the VE-Day there and we were so glad we were doing, and the guy that wrote our 463-467 book, Nobby Blundell he was a, uhm, he was a fitter, he was a fitter, uhm, an engineer and on a ground staff and he wrote our books incidentally, all the books on 464-647 fisher [?] books were all written by Nobby did a magnificent job but the uhm, was great the, uhm, he managed to, you know, get, gives us all the particulars that we wanted to know, I don’t know, and he was all of our flying set up, all of the, he’d used the, [unclear], is that called, the evidence of our doing your trip, he used to get all these information from the [unclear], he spend years on doing this and so we were forever grateful and he did this but, uhm, getting back to VE-Day, I was more than, more than pleased with what was happening and then of course we had to start thinking about what was gonna happen as it was after VE-Day.
AP: Uhm, how did you get back to Australia?
DES: Ah, that’s a good [unclear], you’ve got some good questions. They are very good, you know, [unclear], we uhm, the uhm, oh I made two efforts to get away. We were disbanded by the way, we were disbanded in August at, uhm, Skellingthorpe, I think it was Skellingthorpe, we’d moved to Skellingthorpe from the Squadron and they formed a Tiger Force for people that were gonna go out to fight the Japanese and uhm, we uhm, managed to particular Tiger Force the uhm, [unclear] you know just asking [unclear].
AP: How did you go home?
DES: How did you go home, yeah. Lost my train of thought. At my age you can.
AP: That’s one. That’s the first one in [unclear]
DES: No, I forget.
AP: Off you go.
DES: Oh, good. [laughs] I know you can scrub that out, yeah, but getting home. Yeah, but I wanted to mention about, we disbanded and then we were transferred to Brighton to wait for a boat and the [unclear] came along. Now, a lot of people in the Air Force know what happened there, there was virtually no, [unclear] but the conditions on the [unclear] which is the [unclear] boat, there was no P&O those days, [unclear] made all the newspapers that a lot of the trips walked off the ship at Southampton because of the conditions, I didn’t want to go twenty five days or so we gotta go and we went back through the canal and [unclear], well we didn’t stop, well we stopped in a few places, the uhm, it was, the, in Brighton we went from, we’d gone onto the ship on the [unclear], we’d got onto the ship and we sailed eventually, we sailed to half of it and wouldn’t you believe we broke down in the Bay of Biscay and the war was over, there was no submarines or so, the war had finished at this time, this was in August or September 1945 [unclear] and we, in between time we had been flying, we’d been doing, taking stuff out to drop the bombs and we’d been doing fighter affiliation and all, we then found work for us to do. Anyway, we set sail out of Southampton and we broke down, and we were flying the black flag, anyone knows it’s out of control and so we eventually we got, we slipped back to Southampton, the first time I have ever been sick was on that bay because we just it [unclear] and happened [unclear] it was about 20000 tons and was their luxury ship when the [unclear] luxury could have been made into a troop ship and we went back to Southampton we were sent then up to Millham. Now Millham is right up near West Freugh, up near Stranraer, right up on the North-West of England and [unclear] us all up to, it was the middle of winter. And we were in Nissen huts and we had to try and keep warm and they had to heat us there but ran out of coal, they couldn’t get, we were rationed the coal, so we smarty Australians [unclear], there was the coal, we got into the coal, [unclear] and pinched the coal, I caught a couple of sometime [unclear] about but we had to go and pinch coal to keep warm. And uhm, we eventually went from there, we were there about a week I suppose and then they found another boat for us which was the Durban Castle, it was a [unclear] ship which went from London, used to go from London to Cape Town and that was a nice ship was made up of air, the complement of going home was a lot of air force people, we had New Zealanders coming home uhm, was quite an interesting lot of people that were on board but we were in [unclear], I was a warrant officer then I’d got up to warrant officer and there under the normal chain, six months of flight sergeant, twelve months of, uh, sorry, six months of sergeant, four months of flight sergeant, then you’re put and made a warrant officer, that was the RAAF and so we’d became warrant officers and then was commission if you got a commission. And the uhm, we uhm, [pauses] [unclear] yeah, yeah, we’re back, we’re off from and, yeah, we were now on the Durban Castle, we’re on the, I forgot, the Durban Castle and the Durban Castle and we had a lot of, we pulled into Gibraltar, can remember Gibraltar, the conditions on the boat were good, the food was good, I put on a stain on the way back because, you know, we put a lot of potatoes, they had a lot of stuff [unclear] but they fed us well, it was a full ship really, but we picked up people on the way, we went to Gibraltar but that was to drop off somebody who was sick so we didn’t pull in, it was just off Gibraltar and we could see the place and if anybody is interested they oughta go to Gibraltar, it is one of the most interesting places to go there. Uh, you don’t expect to see what you see, so we, Gibraltar just a night, we dropped these people off and then we went to Taranto in Italy, in the heel of Italy and there we picked up the New Zealand war brides, that had married a lot of the New Zealanders, who were fighting in Italy, they’d either gone home or [unclear], but the war brides were on their own and so we picked up the war brides and that filled the boat a bit more and then we went from Italy to the Canal, went through the canal, and they wouldn’t let us off the boat in the canal and, you know, none of us would have been through the Suez Canal and so, that was working of course and so was [unclear] to Port Tewfik, Tewfik? No, Port Said, we went to Port Said and they, one of the guys in that was with me at the time, was called [unclear] and he had a DCM, Distinguished Conduct Medal which he had earned in the Middle East but he was in the Air Force, he was, he was a gunner in the Air Force but and he’d been to Port Said, you know, he knew all about this place and we had to get to Port, [mimics the gunners voice] so there was a ladder down at the back of the ship and so a few of us got out of the bumboats as they called them [unclear] and we went ashore, we went ashore, we didn’t take any notice of them people [unclear] we, most of the people were doing this but they were not supposed to. And so we were wondering around the town and the Arabs tried to come and sell us something, dirty postcards on sale [laughs], you know, and we were looking, [unclear] got out, went off and he hit one of these blokes, he hit one of these blokes, you know, because he was trying to do something wrong or I don’t know what it was but he knew what he can get away with, he slapped him on the face [unclear] we gonna get caught [unclear] being in a riot, anyway we got back to our ship alright and went up the gangway this time, no one said anything so. We went through the canal which was a great experience to go through and see how that operates, I’ve never been through the Panama but a lot of our fellows went through the Panama, which I would have liked to have done, uhm, then we went into Aden, and then we, that was near Yemen, and that was in Yemen where you nearly got a lot of troubles and then we went to, uhm, Perth, we went straight across the Indian Ocean to Perth and that’s where we dropped of the Perth blacks [?] and I remember carrying, not carrying but helping a bloke who’d had too much to drink in Kings Park and we were gonna miss the boat, cause you had to be up to Perth and the boat was at Freemantle, we had to get back by train and we had to get him back so [unclear] helped him back but he was not used to Australian beer cause the British beer was pretty, uh, pretty weak and this Australian beer was pretty, you know, pretty [unclear] anyway we got back, we came around the [unclear] to Melbourne, and was Melbourne we got off the boat and went to, uhm, went on the train, went on the train to Sydney, I don’t recall, must have been the train of the time, we sat up but we didn’t have sleepers, and no, we went up to Sydney and the Vietnam blokes all complain that they didn’t get a welcome home. Well, none of us got a welcome home but we were quite happy, cause we arrived at Central Station on platform number one, my mother and sister were there to meet me, they took me home and then a week later I was to report at Bradfield Park, I went to Bradfield Park, they gave me a dischargement home and I went back to work.
AP: That was it.
DES: That was it.
AP: Did you have any issues settling down again? [unclear]?
DES: No, no, no, I had no issues. The only thing is for a while so I went straight back to my job that I left at the MLC and I had been there eighteen months, for eighteen months so I didn’t know much about the business and so I got into, when I went to, I applied when I went back, this is in early 1946 I uhm went back to the MLC and they put me on, they had to put me on that was the law, they had to put you back on staff and they sent me to a department where I was the only fellow with a hundred and forty girls. I’d been in the Air Force all this time with fellows, we had the well WAAF around but generally speaking you weren’t used to mixing around with women, you know, and they put me there for, they put me there for a purpose, of course, and they put next to me the girl that spoke the most [laughs] she was a real gossip, she spoke the most, Shirley Reed, and Shirley, and I, the first two weeks I didn’t hardly, apart from doing my work I didn’t say anything but not because I didn’t [unclear], I was just out, I don’t know what to do, you know, I was just doing my work but I thought, and I wasn’t that good at conversation at that particular time [unclear] we had lunch at our desk in those days, we bought some sandwiches and had lunch at our desks, she kicked the chair from underneath me, I was leaning back and she kicked the chair it was dangerous, she kicked the chair, I went down under the [unclear], well, everybody laughed and I laughed and from that time on I was married [?] [laughs]. I was in that department for about two years and I was still the only fellow. And I have great memories of that, of that two years because I was single, I went to so many birthday parties and twenty-first birthday parties, to weddings, I talked to get a few other girls, my wife was one of them and well, became one of them and I went to work for her in the department and I made [unclear] she came to England for four years and then came back and I married her then but I don’t, was I was then move to, I went again they sent me to Tasmania to open up the office in Tasmania in Launceston and then I was there for two years and then I, they did that in those days, don’t do it nowadays, then I was sent to, I was in Sydney for a while and then I was posted to Adelaide in 1960 and I, I was in charge of the collector branch there in Adelaide and we had two children there, Dave and Jane and that was another wonderful experience and then. I’ve got to say something about the air force, don’t let me forget.
AP: [unclear] of course.
DES: But, we had, Adelaide was a wonderful place to bring children up, I became a fan of the, I was a rugby person, rugby union, I became a fan of Australian rules when I first went to Adelaide I was, uhm, every Monday we had lunch with a group in the industry, in the life insurance industry and I didn’t have much to, I didn’t have much to talk about because I didn’t know anything about the Australian rules, for all they talked about were the teams that played at the weekend so I thought, oh, the best thing for me to do was to join those, if we were gonna have, [unclear], I’d better join them, better go out with them, so, they were members, a few of them were members of the Stirling football club, Aussie [?] rules club, and, no, The Double Blues, I can sing you the song if you want me to sing it, but they are The Double Blues and I became quite a rugby, an Australian rules fan, I’m not forgetting me rugby cause I’m a rugby person still but the, I used to, family, it was a family setup, we’d go out on a Saturday and we’d go, we’d have the radio would be on at the eleven o’clock match and then we’d go on, we’d have lunch or something then we’d go up to see the afternoon, the main game in the afternoon and then we’d finish there we’d go and buy some beer and some food and we'd watch the replay of that game and then we’d watch the replay of the main game in Melbourne, that was our Saturday but all the kids were all around at home that particular day and they’d come to the game in Adelaide, then they got so much free bottle they could pick up and the kids used to go and pick it up and make a lot of money on a Saturday [laughs] and but I became quite a fan of that we won the premiership four weeks running and that was my introduction to Australian rules, what a wonderful thing to be, but it’s a wonderful game and I love Australian rules and I do follow the Swans, uhm, but I don’t go out and see nowadays, I don’t go and see the rugby except on [unclear] occasions again I go and watch the rugby but. And in Tasmania I played rugby union and my [unclear] was the president of the North Tasmanian rugby union, we had three teams and I played in one of the teams and, uhm, that was in Launceston and, oh I forgot, New Zealand. I was in, I was two and a half years in New Zealand and I was there for the Springbok Tour in 1956 and I saw quite a bit of the football there, I used to go to the football in those days but New Zealand was another great place to be I was married there but I came back to Sydney, married Dorothy and then came back to New Zealand when she came back, she came back to work at the MLC for twelve months and, uh, and then we came back to, and I had a wonderful time because I have got relations there In New Zealand, so, I had places I had to go, so, I’ve seen every city in New Zealand except Gisborne and I don’t know why I’m saying that but, uhm, it was a wonderful place for me and it was a good place to, uhm, yeah it was a good, I was the, I joined the Kendala Lawn Tennis Club and I played tennis and I became the treasurer of the Kendala Lawn Tennis Club and so I fitted into the New Zealand mob, cause New Zealanders by and large as a group don’t like Australians, you know, but they do like, when they meet individually we’re all great, you know, we might talk about the Anzac business but they have really odd, that’s only my observation of course, they don’t’ really and I’m a, I regularly go to funerals in New Zealand at the moment but you know I’m a great fan of New Zealand and they as a group, they are jealous of Australians, I think, cause we’re so big.
AP: Ok, could be something.
DES: Yeah.
AP: Yeah, worked with a few kiwis, anyway. Uhm, yeah, you were gonna say something [unclear].
DES: I was gonna say, I do a lot of this, you know, I’m gonna plug in for the Bomber Command Commemorative Day and I’ve been involved with 463-467 Squadron Association, I’ve been involved with, uh, the Bomber Command Commemorative Day Foundation but that’s just a little aside. Uh, I’m doing this really because [clears throat] I owe the Air Force something. [sighs] When my, when memoires bring us [unclear] when I went away on the Air Force, I didn’t know anything, I was a real greenhorn, I was a green eighteen, didn’t know anything cause mum, you know, we were never allowed to play cards on a Sunday as I’d never, we never had cards in the house, mum didn’t, mum was a bit, she was an Anglican and uh, but she wasn’t, she wasn’t an [unclear] or anything either but a [unclear] drink she might have been, we never had but grog in the place, I tried to have [unclear] sherry sometimes [laughs] she went [mimics and astonished expression] when she heard, she was a great mother by, a great mother by the way but our mum, I’m trying to get the message over that I didn’t know a lot about the world until I went to the Air Force and the Air Force made me and I feel I gotta make some contribution to the Air Force and the same thing applies to the office MLC, that they to me were absolutely marvellous and I only retired from there about two years ago when I, I retired in ‘84, I went back to do a job for three months, to set up the database, helped set up the database in the MLC and now twenty five years later I’m still there with two, with another guy, it was five of us who stayed on for a while, but then, three had died and two of us are still left. But the MLC were, they, you know, I was on a, I tell you I was on a two and half percent mortgage for a time at the MLC, and they didn’t pay as much as probably some of the other companies but you know, I never, you felt you had a real, uhm, you know, they never sacked anybody except if you pinched money [laughs] and that, it remarks the office that didn’t happen but the MLC were wonderful to me, the Air Force and the MLC were wonderful to me and a lot of my friends are not jealous of me but they would have loved to have had a job like I’ve got, working with the MLC until I was just on ninety and, uhm, and I was doing every bit as good a job as I was as the people beside me that I was working, I was doing all computer work and this sort of thing. Oh, when I say computer work, it wasn’t on a main frame but it was, was all the stuff was all set up for us to do but I did some work on the telephones and that sort of thing but there was a lot of sixty plus, sixty five plus fellows that could, they some of the companies could, instead of putting them off, give them extra time, you know, keep them employed on a, say, five days, four days, three days, because, you know, I was bored stiff for a while when I first retired and when I got this [unclear], I was a bit two-minded about going back and doing this and that was one of the best decisions I have ever made and so there for that, this is not wartime setup but the MLC they could have paid when I was in the Air Force but I was getting more money in the Air Force than I was in the MLC [laughs] so I didn’t much from it but. Had I not been in the aircrew I would have probably cause we were paid extra in the aircrew, not a lot but we were paid extra. And, yeah, so that was, I have a lot to thank the Air Force for and that’s why I’m doing, I do this work now with volunteering with doing various things on Bomber Command Association and the 463 business, anything to do with the Air Force I like doing, you know, and I meet a lot of nice people.
AP: Good. Final question. Uhm, what do you think the legacy of Bomber Command is and how you want to see it remembered?
DES: Uh, well, I don’t think we will ever see another Bomber Command, in these days we will never see another Bomber Command because the days of the, uhm, what do we call them? The, you know, the things that fly on their own? You’ll never see another Lancaster bomber bombing places, you will see atom bombs or, not atom bombs, but these other sort of, what do you call the little?
AP: Drones. Yeah.
Des: The drones, you see, just here in one of our Squadrons here now, the 462 Squadron in Adelaide, they are mixed up in drones, you see, and so, you know, I’m very proud of, uhm, joining and taking part in Bomber Command. I think they did a magnificent job; they’d had a rough trot until 1942, when they weren’t hitting their targets, [unclear] as things got better, they did the, I’m fully happy with all what the Bomber Command did. I think the world of Air Marshal Harris and I get, I get annoyed sometimes when people who want to criticize him. You know, every year I get a message from Melbourne about Dresden [laughs], which, you know, which annoys me, more than anything else, because Dresden deserved what they got, you know, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, London, Liverpool, Coventry, they all got a similar treatment and I don’t think, you know, there was a lot about Dresden that, and I’m sorry I brought that up but we know that there were a lot of people operating in Dresden which were military, they were hidden, slightly like the people today are putting, uh, children and some of these in where real targets are and there were definitely a lot of things in Dresden that deserved to be bombed and, you know, we’re at war, we had to do our best to do that but I’m quite proud of what we did in Bomber Command and I’m very, I think I finished my speech at the reflections at the Bomber Command thing in Canberra a few years ago and I was very proud and fine with Bomber Command and but I don’t think we will see another Bomber Command type of people, there will never be a group like us ever again, so I don’t’ think there is any future, but it will be done by the drones, what it’s gotta be done I think will be done by the drones and then that creates a bit of loss of life to civilians but I’m afraid when you are fighting a war it’s just, you know, it’s just the way it goes. Uhm, I don’t know, of [unclear].
AP: How do you want to see it remembered?
DES: How will I remember it?
AP: Yeah, how do you want to see it remembered, how do you want Bomber Command to be remembered.
DES: Oh, [unclear], oh, I just like the people here today to and that’s what we’re in the business with the Bomber Command Commemoration Day Foundation, we want the children of our people to carry on and thank the people of, like the 5000 who died, not us particularly but, ah yeah, the 5000 Australian airmen we hope you’ll remember them, you might forget them, as I hope you won’t forget the Vietnam people and the people who went to Korea and the people who went to [unclear]. We do remember them and I pray that they remember them on Anzac Day, uhm, but I think that, uhm, I would like to and I am amazed at, uh, the young people today that we have come into their [unclear] up to about four or five years ago and never heard of some of the things of their fathers and grandfathers had done. And I’m amazed by the number of people who came out of the woodwork to find out more about now and it’s up to us now, cause we are talking here now, it’s up to us to make sure that we get the message out to the younger people that their living today because of the sacrifice that the people made, that died over in the Bomber Command raids and that sort of thing, that they would be, uhm, might be leading a different sort of life, that they, uh, if it hadn’t been for the actions and the deeds of those who fought in Bomber Command. But I’d like them to think nicely of us and I think most of them do. I get, not amazed, but I’m really interested and pray that today for instance I’ve been talking to people that were involved and had involvements, you know, a lot of them didn’t know to a certain extent what things we’d done and how we’d helped shorten the war and that sort of thing, cause we did really and I suppose dropping the atom bomb bought us to and I’ve got no objections to the atom bomb being dropped either, it probably saved a lot of lives too. It’s a terrible thing but once, if I can say again, I’m amazed at the young people that are so interested and yet there are some families that they are not interested at all, not interested at all and parts of families, including my own, now, some of mine are not that interested, my son is and but, and I think [unclear] but one of my grandchildren is very interested. It’s on the other side but that’s their decision, we probably haven’t got the message over to them which is [unclear] and I am disappointed when I speak to some of my friends who don’t want to talk about it, it’s not boasting about these [unclear], people should know that these sort of things went on, that these, because of their actions, they’ve had fifty, sixty, seventy years of freedom here, even in Australia which might never have happened if those people hadn’t made the sacrifices that they did and volunteered and don’t forget, all the aircrew in Australia were volunteers, there was no, no one was conscripted, they were all volunteers. Yeah.
AP: Oh well, that’s the end of my questions. So.
DES: Well, that’s good. Yeah.
AP: You’ve done very well.
DES: [unclear] How long was that?
AP: That was one hour forty two.
DES: That was alright, well, that was [unclear]
Dublin Core
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ASouthwellDE160424
Title
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Interview with Don Southwell
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:42:57 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2016-04-24
Description
An account of the resource
Don Southwell grew up in Australia and worked for RKO Radio Pictures and as an Air Raid Precautions Warden before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. After training in Australia and Canada, he flew nine operations as a navigator with 463 Squadron from RAF Waddington. He describes crewing up and everyday military life at the station, and gives accounts of his operations and being chased by Me 262s over Hamburg. He remembers ferrying liberated prisoners of war as part of Operation Exodus.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Czech Republic
Germany
Great Britain
New South Wales
Alberta--Edmonton
Czech Republic--Plzeň
England--Brighton
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Essen
Germany--Leipzig
New South Wales--Sydney
California--San Francisco
United States
California
Alberta
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Sussex
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
29 OTU
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
fear
Lancaster
Me 262
memorial
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Waddington
RAF West Freugh
Stirling
superstition
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/328/3488/PSmithJ1601.2.jpg
0fe7e11ac29997643bdadaafb0ca7c4b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/328/3488/ASmithJ160312.1.mp3
6c84a152556073ed657df032c82e6d84
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith, Jean
J Smith
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Jean Smith (2105009 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. She worked as a clerk in the aircraft manufacturing industry before the war and later served as a secretary in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served at 27 Operational Training Unit at RAF Lichfield.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Jean Smith, who was a WAAF at Lichfield among other places during World War Two, she in fact I met her husband who was a Stirling flight engineer, so this is gonna be a good one. My name is Adam Purcell, the interview is taking place at Jean’s home in McCrae, south of Melbourne and it is the 12th of March 2016. So, Jean, I thought we might start from the beginning, it’s probably a good spot. Uhm, can you tell me something of your early life, what, where and how you grew up, uhm, education, first job, that sort of thing.
JS: Oh, well, I was born on the 1st of January 1922 and born in [unclear] 6, moved to, uhm, Welwyn Garden City and that’s where I spent my school life. I went not to the local primary school and I went to Hitchin Grammar School, was the nearest secondary school to Welwyn Garden City and then I went to Pitman’s College in London and at the same time the family moved to Amersham in Buckinghamshire. I was always very keen on horse riding and show jumping so that’ s where I spent most of my spare time in my youth. I did a secretarial course at Pitman’s College and also studied for my civil service exams, which I passed very well and went in, I chose the Air Ministry, my father told me I was very silly to do that. He was a civil servant, he knew better than me but I wanted to go into the Air Ministry. And then the Air Ministry split and was the Ministry of Aircraft Production which I went into. We spent our time typing out and preparing all these contracts for small firms to make Wellington bombers and Spitfires and Hurricanes a year at least before the war started. Then the war started and by that time I had met a very nice young man at Halton number 1 school of Aircraft Apprentices and he was passing out that year and he was sergeant apprentice and he, when the war occurred, he went straight over to France with the British Expeditionary Force, he was a fitter of course, and then managed to escape back from a French fishing village, on a French small fishing boat back to Folkestone and as soon as he got back to Britain, he, then we were, the Battle of Britain had started and we were very short of pilots for all our new aircraft, fighter aircraft and he trained as a Hurricane pilot and sadly he was shot down in the Battle of Britain. I wanted to go into the Air Force straight away, into the WAAF, but my father wouldn’t let me, he said, no, not until you are twenty one, why that magical number? I got in at twenty in the beginning of 1942 and I wanted to be a flight mechanic or a radio operator but of course they conned me and they said that you’re already trained and you’ll save your country such a lot of money [laughs] and so I went in as a secretary and all I did was my two months training at Innsworth Camp with thousands of other girls, usual routine, learning to march, to salute and hygiene and air force laundry, marches. And there were no mirrors on our training station so we had to learn to do our hair, put our make-up on and put our caps on and tie our ties without anything other than your little compact mirror and that was a bit of a thing. Anyway, I was posted to number 27 OTU Lichfield and I wanted to be in Fighter Command, now I was going to Bomber Command. Anyway, I arrived at 27 OTU and I found out what a lovely station it was, friendly and happy. And, [sighs] I became secretary to the Chief Flying Instructor Wing Commander Jackson, he was a South African and he’d done his first tour on Hampdens and I, my office was part of the orderly room, training wing orderly room down in flying control on the edge of the air field and I was stunned when I used to see all these young officers and flight sergeants and warrant officers coming in, all the instructors coming into our office, I was strapped dumb and they were all decorated and they’d all done their ops on Wellingtons and Hams, not Wellingtons, Hampdens and another aircraft, we used to call them coffin boxes, Hampdens, can’t think of the other one, uhm, and I was so naive and young, all these young heroes coming in, breezing in, and of course I quickly learned all the slang, you know, di digitate and you’re in the fertilizer business and [laughs] so on and so on, the prangs and they really did say jolly good show when they came in up to doing something [laughs], well, uhm, so, the Waafery was two miles down the road, uhm, I think it was a place, a little village called Streethay, it was on the main road and it was two miles away and it was surrounded by high barb wire fencing and sentries at the gate and I remember, some of the aircrew boys saying: ‘Why do they, why do they surround your place as if it’s like a prison?’ and I used to tell all the Aussies: ‘To keep you randy Aussies out’. We had a little pub called the Anchor, a tiny little pub that had been a coaching inn and it was just, all about a quarter of a mile down the road from our camp and, of course we were all armed [?], we were all given service bikes, we could all ride a bike because we had to ride to and fro to camp and coming down on summer evenings, especially when I was first there, lot of the girls used to stop and go in for half a pint of beer before they went in for their tea [laughs]. Oh, I was so pure and innocent, it took me six months before I set my first footstep, I’d never been in a pub in my life, [laughs]. Anyway we used to go into the Anchor a lot for a quick drink and also of course on the nights in the winter, when night flying was cancelled, when it was thick pea souper fog or rain streaming down, you couldn’t see an inch before you, we all used to wait around in our hut after we’d had our tea at night and suddenly over the tannoy the message would come: all night flying cancelled, all night flying scrubbed, over and out. And we’d all say whoopee and get the curlers out and put all the glamour on, those were the days of big pink rouge cheeks and thick horrible makeup called powder cream, we used to plaster all over our spotty faces and big cupids bow lips bright red and mascara [?], which came in little black blocks and you spat on it and rubbed it with a little brush, and thickly coated your eyelashes. The trouble was it wasn’t waterproof so if you went to the pictures and it was a sad film you, also all the girls came out with streaks of black down their cheeks [laughs], we’d all be trying to wipe of our black tears. Uh, we had a lot of fun in the Hut 2 and, as I say, we used to put all our makeup on and then best blue and dash down to the pub and then we’d wait there, we’d order our drinks, just half a pint of beer and you’d hear all the boys coming down and all the bikes going bang, bang, bang on the pub wall and they’d all come streaming in and in half an hour the whole place would be a thick fug, you could hardly see across the room, cigarette smoke and I always remember cigarette smoke and all the wet wall, there was always a big fire on in the lounge bar and the piano, oh, piano would be going like mad with all the songs getting naughtier and naughtier as the night went on [laughs]. And it was good because these boys were doing their, they were doing their operational training, they were, they’d come from all their various schools, pilots from their flying school, wireless school, gunnery and they’d come together and they’d been put in big room and told to make up a crew of five which would be pilot, navigator, wireless operator, he was also a gunner, uh, a gunner and a bomb-aimer and they would then convert onto Wellington, twin-engine bombers, the good old Wellingtons which were nicknamed Wimpies, they were, they were going up doing circuits and bumps all day and all night and it’s all very well, I was shattered actually when I got there, because the number of accidents in training was shocking during the war and I don’t think a lot of civilians, I didn’t think there were going to be all these terrible accidents and my first job, as soon as I settled into my, into my office, my first job was to type out a form 765C, I think five copies I had to do, you had to do five copies, one went to Bomber Command, one went to Group Headquarters, one went somewhere else and this particular form 765C, which was an accident report form for Bomber Command, it was a Cat E, and Cat E was total wreck all crew killed, it started with Cat E which was just nothing, you know, somebody knocked a, knocked a whole in a [unclear] or something like that, but the Cat Es were all full and of course when I’d done that and send that off and I was appalled cause I said to the sergeant in charge of the orderly room: ‘Does this happen often?’. ‘Oh, yes’ he said turning to me, he said, ‘Oh, we’ve had one accident, we should have another two in the next week’. Sure enough we did and next day I, and next morning I, after I’d done the general correspondence with the Chief Flying Instructor, the CFI, I had to go and sit down and we did letters of condolence to the various parents and wives and I know there were two Australian families and I thought how dreadful, all those miles away and I suppose no air mail, so I suppose in five weeks, will take five weeks for the letters to get to the parents somewhere in the outback of Australia and it just hit home, the war really came home to me in those first few days at my new station. And I was to see a lot of very nasty accidents and I think you know there’s always, it always makes me shudder now when I hear of a bad accident to a large airliner, you think of the horrible noise and the smell and that sort of vile cloud of black, black grey smoke and then the dark red flames going up and I’d seen dead bodies being carried out of planes and it’s so terrible and it did happen so often and of course we were very near the Peak District, Staffordshire, Derbyshire was the next door county and of course the Peak District and the boys did their night flying training in all weathers, terrible weather in full blackout and there they were flying around with all the peaks not very far distant and all the, all the Welsh mountains not very far away so, we had quite a lot of accidents hitting mountains. There used to be a comical character, in a magazine which was circulated to the air crew every so often and there was a little pilot called PO Prune and he was always saying: ‘Do not come down to sea!’ and he always held his finger in the air and that was called the irremovable digit [laughs] and he was always telling people all the things they, all the aircrew telling them what they must look out for and what they mustn’t do and constantly it was: ‘Do not come down to sea!’ Never come down lower than a certain height. And life went on very smoothly at 27 OTU. I remember, uhm, I turned twenty one of course at the end of that year, on New Year’s Day 1943 and there was, on Saint Valentine’s Eve there was a WAAF dance. Morale had been bad among the WAAF at that time because we’d had an awful lot of accidents, one girl had lost her young husband only a few months married, several girls had had bad news from their boyfriends in Africa because at that time our tanks, it was the first time when our tanks were being pushed back by Rommel and there was bad news from all our various fronts and the U-boats were having a feast downing our convoys, rations were being tightened for civilians, it was a very bad time, so, all the officers, and our WAAF officers decided, have a dance, I think it was the, our WAAF, the WAAF was formed in 1938 or ’39 just before the war and it was an anniversary for the WAAF and of course we couldn’t be allowed to wear civilian clothes, you weren’t allowed to wear civilian clothes, you had to be in uniform all the time. So, they got round that by saying, we’ll have a fancy dress dance for the WAAF, not for the airmen, the airmen have to come in uniform for the girls. So, we all rushed home, if we had a 36 hour or 48 hour leave, we all rushed home and said to our mothers, what have we got, got all the bits out, my mother dyed some spare cloth, she dyed one lot red and made me a very full skirt and then she found a bit of blackout curtain and made a little bodies and the boys in the dope shop painted a sickle and hammer on it, cause they were, the Russians were our gallant allies in those days and I’d also I got a little [unclear] in civilian life, a little, pretty little embroidered blouse, Hungarian blouse. So I went as a Russian peasant and my aunt had given me a beautiful silk Japanese kimono which she had before the war, it was a really beautiful thing. And my best friend, Hibbie, Brenda was her real name, Hibbie was dark-haired and very petite and I lent this kimono to Hibbie and she did her hair up with a comb in it and went as a Japanese girl, a horrible [unclear] [laughs] and so we all got it, we were told to get in the transport, we could go in our fancy dress and we were all glamourized that, we’d had all our hair set, we’ve had to get in the transport in order to go up to main camp but we had to take our uniforms with us to, to camp, so that we came home, back to camp in uniform. Anyway, we got up to the big NAAFI on the main camp and the station band which was very good started to play and the boys came in and we were dancing and a couple of young men came in and they, they were just in working gear, with scarves round their neck. They walked over to the bar, meanwhile ten of us had coloured a huge table near the bar, so, we were all there, sitting and chatting and these two young airmen came along and the older said; ‘Hello, girls, can we sit with you?’ And I said: ‘Oh, yes’. And they dragged out the young man along, she seemed very shy, blushing about being among with all us girls, anyway this was to be, this was my husband-to-be and he didn’t ask me to dance and I was getting up and dancing with all these other boys and then I said: ‘Don’t you like me or don’t you think I can dance very well?’ He said: ‘I can’t dance, he said, I’ve never danced in my life, he said, there’s a boy in our hut being trying to teach some of us to dance but, he said, I come from the isle of Lewis, and we are free Presbyterians, we are Calvinists, and we believe dancing is very sinful’. But he said: ‘I don’t’. And he said: ‘I’d like to learn to dance’. He said: ‘Will you dance with me now?’ So, he danced with me and trod all over my feet, he was such a, oh, he had lovely blue eyes and he was a very nice boy with that beautiful Highland accent, very soft and of course I really fell for him and he said, so after the last waltz we, he said to me: ‘May I see you at to transport?’ I said, ‘Oh yes’, I said, ‘You have to wait outside because we’ve all got to change back into our uniforms’. So we go into another room, change back and I found that I got all my uniform there except that I hadn’t got my, we didn’t have suspender belts in those days, we had corsets and [laughs] large, pink corsets with suspenders on the end and I found I left my back at camp. So, I put my stockings on, I went out to transport, I was holding my skirt with my stockings up and there is this nice boy waiting for me and eventually, you know, after we all chit chatting and talking, the driver said: ‘Get in girls!’. So, he said: ‘May I kiss you goodnight?’ and I said: ‘Oh, yes!’ and I put my arms up around his neck and my stockings fell down [laughs] and so obviously it must, it must have been ordained that this would be my future husband. Oh, we only had five dates before he went off, he was a fitter on our camp, and we had five dates and he went off for his aircrew training and the young man and the older man who’d introduced him to us girls was Norman Jackson, who went on, he went off on the flight engineers course too, he was a fitter. And he went on to win the VC, he climbed out on the wing of his burning plane, he stuck a fire extinguisher into his tunic and climbed out and the other men were sort of holding onto his parachute pack and then a flame [unclear], he managed to put most of the fire out but the flames blew back all across his face and hands and unfortunately in all the shemozzle, well the fire extinguisher of course went, fell off the plane and but his parachute started to open so he had to go off, they couldn’t drag him back and he was a POW. The Germans cared for him pretty well but years later, apparently he worked, somebody told us that he worked in a high class Rolls Royce showroom selling Rolls Royce, he probably would be helped after the war, but he was a prisoner of war for a long time. Uhm, no, from about 1943 to 5 and uh, unfortunately we tried to get in touch but it was very difficult after the war, everything was in such a muddle and we never got the chance to meet him again. And, so, Jock wanted me to be his steady girlfriend but most of us WAAF didn’t like, didn’t like to be, it was the boys who wanted to be serious but we didn’t like to be serious with any of them or getting, most of us didn’t want to get engaged or married because we all felt with aircrew that once they got married or they were engaged, they were, they became very serious and much more careful and it was, we all felt talking to aircrew boys that it was the worst thing to be very careful, it was far better to be gung-ho and able to take risks than, and not have to think about a wife or a serious girlfriend. But I wrote to him the whole time he was on ops, I didn’t see him for eighteen months, I wrote him the whole time he was on ops, and I’ve got most of his letters and unfortunately he hasn’t, he didn’t, he couldn’t keep many of mine because most of them threw letters away, personal letters were thrown away. Uhm, aircrew on ops, it wasn’t a wise thing to keep anything from love life or anything like because if you were killed or taken prisoner, the RAF police went in and put everything into, uhm, boxes and all that was sent to the parents and sometimes, or wives, and sometimes it was far better that certain things weren’t known. So, I mean, you know, even things like condoms, they were told not to keep in their lockers and things like that because of the attitude in those days. So, uhm, eventually in 1945, I was posted to 3 and 5 Group at Grantham, the top groups which commanded the operational squadrons and we were working in a large country house on the edge of Grantham and we were billeted in a lovely old Edwardian house right in the middle of Grantham, not far from the Great North Road which ran through Grantham at that time. And it turns out, when I was reading the biography of Bomber Harris, when he was a young air commodore at the beginning of the war, that was his living quarters, his house with his wife and young daughter and they, eventually it was withdrawn as living quarters for RAF officers and became the living quarters for mainly the clerical and secretarial staff and actually discipline was very easy in the house, this was the place where we were living, uhm, because we were all very trustworthy women who’d worked as personal secretaries all the war and so were trusted to go and come without having to book in or book out. So, I knew I’d been keeping in touch with Jock and I knew by then he’d finished his tour of ops and he was a fighter engineer instructor at Woolfox Lodge, just down the Main North Road and he’d got a motorbike and so I said, you know, I said, he said, you know, did I feel like taking up the friendship again, and I said if he was interested, yes, fine. So, he came up on his motorbike to Grantham and we renewed our friendship, which of course brought something to our romance and we married at the end of 1945, once all the, when the war was over. But, to go back to Lichfield, I would have gone on Lichfield, unfortunately my very nice Chief Flying Instructor boss went back to do a second tour of ops so I was getting some, I was going to work for someone else. But sadly he went back on ops and he lost his life, his plane crashed over Germany and he lost his life and it was very sad because he’d married an English girl and he had two lovely children because I used to, when there were officers mess dances, I used to go and babysit for him, cause I always felt, I always used to sit next to him in his car when I was taken out to his house. [unclear] for the night and I used to feel like a queen sitting next to a senior officer [laughs] going past the guards [laughs] and they were all saluting [laughs] and so I used to look after the children and then he, and I’d have breakfast with them and he’d go, we’d go back to camp next morning. But very sadly, we were moved from our nice wooden house, we were moved into new Nissen huts, this was when conscription came in for women at the end of 1942 or the beginning of 1943 and we really suddenly became inundated with all these conscripted women, they hated us, we hated them, we were volunteers, they were conscripts, and they didn’t want to be in the services and we made it clear that we wanted to win the war and we were going to win the war [laughs] and so on. Anyway, we were moved to new Nissen huts, which had been built in the winter and were still, the concrete floors were still very damp and it was terribly, terribly cold, I know, we discarded our sheets and used to sleep between blankets and we put on our pullovers and our slacks over our WAAF pyjamas, which were nice and warm and thick but still not thick enough and we heat bricks up and wrap them in newspaper or old bits of cloth to put in the bed and even so in the morning your breath used to be frozen, right down the blanket, a little icicle. Anyway it was so cold, and I got flu and I didn’t do any, I got a cold and then it went into flu and I didn’t do anything about it and didn’t go sick, that went into bronchitis and the bronchitis very quickly turned into pneumonia and I was at work and I went all funny and they had to get an ambulance to take me to sick quarters and I must have been very ill because they put me in a private room which was normally kept for officers and I was wrapped in the officers white blanket because if I’d been, other ranks blankets would have been grey [laughs] and they gave me the new miracle drug, MB363 or some, it was a new sulphanilamide drug and it worked wonders on pneumonia and I was sick for, very sick for a few days and then eventually I lost my voice and I was sent down to Waafsey quarters to convalesce and in Waafsey quarters they had a dreadful sergeant, a woman sergeant, a WAAF sergeant in charge and she used to have all us patients up every morning, we had to get on our hands and knees in our pyjamas and polish the floors [laughs]. I couldn’t speak [laughs]. We had a little wind-up gramophone in sick quarters and the only record we had was some well-known singer of the day singing, we’re having a heatwave, a tropical heatwave, it isn’t surprising, the temperature’s rising, she certainly can, can, can [singing] [laughs]. We played it and played it and played it. So then I went back to work but by then my boss had gone and the senior medical officer decided that I’d been so sick and I’d also had a lot of very nasty boils and said really you should have a series of injections for vitamin B but unfortunately vitamin B is kept for aircrew only so I can’t give it to you, and he said, I’m going to do the very next best thing, he said, I’m going to arrange a posting to group headquarters and he said you’ll have much better food, you’ll get fruit and he said you will be in much better quarters, but of course when I went to group headquarters it was all very nice but no aircrew, no any young men. The only thing was, we had a big Canadian Bomber Command station not far from us and a huge American camp so we used to go to the American camp and that was the first time we saw, for several years that we saw oranges and ice cream, they gave us ice cream [unclear]. But to go back to Lichfield, before I leave Lichfield to go to 93 Group Headquarters in Derbyshire, I must tell of the most exciting thing that happened to all of us and that was our station taking part in the first thousand bomber raid on Cologne, I think it was the 30th, 31st of May 1942 and that was very exciting, I mean, we didn’t know where, that the target would be Cologne but we all knew something big was on. Apparently, I’ve read all about the thousand plan but at first poor old Bomber Harris thought [unclear] make the bombers because the Coastal Command was going to be in it and their bombers were going to take part and the navy bombers, but at the last minute the navy and coastal or they say so, Coastal Command withdrew so we were left with less than a thousand bombers and Bomber Harris said they must: ‘Churchill had said it must be’, and Bomber Harris said it must be a thousand bombers so they racked in all the training stations and every screen was allotted a crew and so cause always at the end of OTU training the aircrews always went on things called bulls eyes [?] or light tight raids just over the coast of France either to straf, shipping or to drop leaflets and just over the coast and then back again, to give the young aircrew a taste of what it would be like but now we were going to have everything, uhm, every crew we could put, even if they were going with an instructor, the screen instructors and so, of course our poor old Wimpies, I mean, all those operational training units, all the heavy conversion units, the aircraft were already second hand, they’d all been used on operational flying, they’d all been used and abused I mean, you, when you talked to a flight engineer as my husband was, they were running those engines very often at revs never put down in the makers note and they came to the instructional units, and they were pretty knocked about a lot of them, a lot of them been hit and repaired and they weren’t very good and that’s probably what caused a lot of the training accidents. And so of course my husband, cause I didn’t know him in those days but than I knew, but I knew all the mechanics, all flight mechanics and fitters were working all around the clock to get service for aircraft and aircraft were taking up on their tests and then repaired again and again, the, don’t you want to stop [whispers]?
AP: No, no, you’re alright.
JS: And then they, then the uhm.
AP: But I will get you to move the microphone if you can, slip down [laughs] it was fine as long as you put your hands on [laughs]. There.
JS: Then, uhm, the uhm, so, they were very, very busy and we knew, because our, the control tower was next to K2 Hangar where my future husband worked and we knew where they were working cause we very often worked very late at night and you could hear all the noise and claying in the hangars and so we didn’t know the actual date until the actual date occurred the 30th of May and suddenly all, everybody was called on deck, everyone, you were just told to do all sorts of jobs, I know I was giving out sealed maps to the navigators and the pilots and we were getting all sorts of things together, all the Red Cross, the Australian Red Cross used to send wonderful parcels across, and the Aussie boys used to share, all the RAAF boys always shared their Red Cross parcels which were marvellous, full of all sorts of goodies and we were getting all those things ready and there were planes obviously being air tested and the whole station was busy with people, all with very definite looks in their eyes, all going about our business, sort of, with a lot of extra jobs to do and wherever you walked on the station normally when planes were bombed up, you wouldn’t see any bombs because they’d just be out of dispersals, but there were bomb trolleys everywhere, you were weaving your bikes all among all the different things, keeping a wary eye on the incendiary bomb boxes, which were painted red because if incendiaries fell off and the box broke open, the incendiaries could, they were very touchy and could often go off and you know, they were very dangerous. So, then of course the boys went for briefing and we were all hanging about, we had, I remember we had our tea and everyone, everyone was very quiet, very serious, the whole station. Of course, when there’s any big operations on the station is closed down and there is no leave and there’s no out coming or incoming personal phone calls or anything like that. So, we were all very busy, doing our various jobs and then I remember after briefing, they all came into the, into our big room in training wing and we were giving out the various, you know, chewing gum, barley sugars, cake, all sort of, parcels and things, cigarettes and off they went. We all had our quick tea and a whole host of us went down to wave them off, and I always remember that night, quite a mass of people were all standing underneath the balcony of flying control and all the top brass of the station, all the senior officers who weren’t flying men were above us, they were all out on the balcony and all the flying men, they were all in the planes, they were all been allotted to [unclear] crews and the three Padres all went, [unclear] and other denominations, Padres, they all went off choice and quite a few of our senior officers, who were ground staff chose to go with the crews, they said they backed them up and they wanted to go, you know, to give them heart as someone was there with them and we heard the first, to see a station, I’d never been on an operational station but my husband’s told me a lot about it but to see these planes or to hear them going, you know, we were standing there and of course always bombers during the war were around in dispersals, all dispersed around the airfield and you’d hear that coughing and choking sound of each engine starting up and revving up and then slowly, slowly. It was a rule that they mustn’t taxi fast because during the war all our rubber came from, well, what’s Malaysia and Indonesia now and of course rubber was very difficult to get and actually it hit the Germans more because of, you know, we were downing any German ships trying to get rubber, they couldn’t know they couldn’t get rubber because it was still British and but all aircraft, all aircrew were told to taxi slowly, because if you taxied fast it wore the rubber out more quickly. We were told that with our bikes, that we must only put our bikes into the bike racks with the rear wheel because if we put the front wheel in, it wobbled about and wore the rubber out [laughs]. All these silly things that happened during the war [laughs]. Uhm, so, then the, the first aircraft came weaving down past the control tower and I always remember the pilots window open and seeing the pilots face, each pilots face white in and his helmet faming [?] his face and he waved to all of us and, as they went slowly past, and we all gave thumbs up and he gave thumbs up and then slammed the window too and they went along to the runway, the end of the runway which wasn’t far away from us and of course they revved up each engine, one must be like a four-engine bomber station where they ramped each engine up to shrieking and you could see, you could see in the dusk, you could see all the dust and leaves and twigs flying and then of course they’d get a green from the airfield control and the caravan down at the end of the airfield and each one revved up and they took all the whole of the runway to get off to clear the hedge at the far end and almost before they were over the hedge, the next one was going down the runway, you know, heavily loaden with bombs and oxygen and high octane fuel, a living bomb themselves and we were all waving and we stood there long after the ground crew had put out the flarepath and long after the dim lights on the balcony had gone out off and all the officers had gone in, we all stood there, sort of not speaking, you know. And next morning of course lying in beds, you know, when the dawn was breaking, we were lying in bed, a lot of us hadn’t slept much that night, hearing the first faint roar of the aircraft coming back and counting back, we only lost one aircraft and they were actually, they had gone to another station, we were lucky but several of our aircraft had to turn back, cause that was the trouble on the training stations, Harris did get his, he got just over a thousand but actually before they got to the enemy coast some were turning back and I mean, once one engine goes in a Wimpey, you know you can’t go on. And of course, you know, we were lucky as I say, we, I and my friend who worked in training, when we dashed down on our bikes before breakfast to go and have a look, I think we run up to Flying Control, up the stairs to Flying Control to have a look at the big board to see who was back and that was quite an exciting night and so, and of course later on Jock told me all about, you know, his operational life and he had some exciting times. But, I went on to, Group Headquarters and of course you were working for senior officers, uhm, there were just one or two flight lieutenants, most of them were squadron leaders, ah, and of course you had air vice-marshals, all the people with the mess of scrambled egg on their caps and you were doing some, we were doing very secret stuff actually at that time and because of course, when I was at, yes, it was, 1945, yes, that was when I, that was when D-Day occurred and we all knew, because they cancelled long before D-Day, they cancelled all long leaves, all seven, fourteen day leaves and even forty eight hours weren’t very, weren’t given out very much. I was lucky, I wasn’t very far from my home and my home was by then in Buxton in Derbyshire because my father was in the civil service and he was in the customs & excise on the Board of Trade, and they were evacuated out to Buxton in Derbyshire. A lot of places, Ministry of Aircraft Production, were evacuated to Harrogate, all the non-military, there only be the Air Ministry, Admiralty, War Office, the Home Office, Colonial Office and, well, the Foreign Office, they were the only ones that stayed in London. All the other departments went out in case of being bombed, so, my dad’s office was in the big Palace Hotel, the biggest hotel in, uhm, in Buxton in Derbyshire and which is a beautiful place and so I wasn’t, when I was at Group Headquarters I wasn’t very far away. I could hitchhike to Derby and get a train to Buxton, so I was lucky I could get home for thirty six hours, but, I, uhm, for D-Day we all knew something was afoot but nobody, I don’t know why none of us put two and two together that it would be D-Day and we were doing all sorts of things so we used to, when you are on duty at night you know we’d be sitting the, only two or three of us on duty and we’d be having to take lots of coded messages and stick them onto paper and they’d go to various officers and the tele printers would be chattering all night with stuff from Bomber Command mainly and of course, then of course we, I came down to early lunch on, actually on D-Day and I went into the airmen’s mess and there was this little huddle around a tiny little radio that they got in the corner of the mess and I said: ‘What’s going on?’ and they said: [makes a shushing sound] ‘it’s on!’ So we all got our ears together listening. And I, cause I was very interested actually and had been interested for a long time because, of course I’d moved up with my parents, I’d left the Ministry of Aircraft Production and I moved up to Buxton when they moved to Buxton in 1940 and, I’d worked for the, I’d had a job as a secretary, as a town clerk in the town hall and the junior clerk who was a year younger than me, he had to wait till he was called up, he was in the home guard, he had to wait till he was called up because his mother was a widow and he was sort of contributing to the family so he waited until he was called up and the non, the local government offices were like the civil service and some big firms. When men were called up, their service pay was made up to their civilian pay, what they were earning in their civilian pay by the civil service and they were very, that was very good, so he had good money all the time. And we used to go out together, I was doing, everybody did voluntary work during the war, my mother rolled bandages and made up, she rolled bandages and made up, she old dressing kits for the army in her spare time, my dad used to fire watch and I used to go and work in the services canteen at the town hall in, about three evenings a week, pouring cups of tea or stirring backed beans for all the troops, cause we had troops everywhere, every town was full of troops, and, this, my boyfriend Morris, he was in the home guard, so he used to come and pick me up after his guard duties on reservoirs and oil damps and so on and, walk me home and I was, he was called up and went into the West Yorkshire Regiment and for years, I mean, Jock knew all about my romance with Morris, and the West Yorks were one of the first, they were one of the first to go on D-Day onto the beaches for the British crowd and I always wondered how he’d got on and my friend across the road, my neighbour across the road, she does genealogy and she’s looked up a lot of my family for me and she looked up Morris for me and if he’s alright and he got through obviously and he married two years after me and they had a daughter. And, so that was nice to know. So, that was our D-Day excitement and then of course I went, I was posted on to 3 and 5 Group Headquarters at Grantham, where of course I met Jock again. And our romance took off but nothing was, I mean, it was very easy living and very easy working conditions at Grantham compared to what I’d had and the war was almost winding down then so we had a very easy time of it and eventually of course once D-Day came, oh yes, D-Day, not D-Day, once VE-Day came, oh, we’ve all danced in the streets, there were civilian women dancing in their nighties in the streets and the street lamps were put on, and of course they’d obviously been preparing for VE-Day because all the street lamps went on and Jock and I, we used to go to a little park in Grantham and we had a special seat and that was our Snogging Seat and [laughs] we used to kiss and cuddle and on our Snogging Seat and we were very put out, after we’ve been down singing, drinking and you know, all the boys, he and all the boys climbed up, they put, they climbed up on the town, Grantham town hall roof and one of the boys tied a pair of WAAF blackouts, twilights, pair of WAAF knickers on the flag staff, certainly weren’t mine and Jock and I went round to our little park and our Snogging seat was no good anymore because there was a big lamp above it and it was lit up [laughs]. So, that was that but, he of course, he did his ops on Stirlings, so, I don’t know if whether you’ve heard, the losses on Stirlings were terrible and whenever we met people after the war and he said he was on a Stirling Squadron, they said; ‘Well, you are one of the few to get through!’ And half way through his ops, they took them off quite a lot of bombing ops and they put onto dropping, uhm, sea mines mainly in the Baltic, up the Gironde Estuary and so on, and then, that was quite tricky stuff, the only two or three would go out, it was quite tricky stuff because those sea mines going down on parachutes of course they were very touchy and they have to be, you have to fly at a certain level so that they would drop into the sea and then they come up to a certain level in the sea and lie there under the sea. And of course, while he was doing that, while he was dropping all these mines in the Baltic and so on, his father, who had been in the Royal Navy during World War I and then he went back into the Royal navy in World War Two and he was on minesweepers off our coast, off the western of [unclear] and the Minch, he was minesweeping for the British convoys coming and going. So, he was sweeping them up and his son was sowing them, they were called gardening operations and so he, they were doing well and also they were dropping a lot of stuff to the Maquis, the French Maquis in the Alps and he said, that was a very leery thing because he remembers, you know, cause Stirlings hadn’t go the height, they couldn’t get the ceiling like the Lancaster could so you often had to fly through gorges, these alpine gorges and he said, very often wingtip to wingtip you’d see this black icy glassy rock each sideof the wingtips and quite a lot of aircraft of course got smashed up in those gorges. And they also dropped to the Maquis, he had a quite an exciting experience, once they were quite high up in the Alps and they had just signalled and they received a torch signal back from the Maquis and they were coming to drop their, they had a lot of stuff including a Gee, of course it was always a flight engineer and a bomb aimer who were pushing it out in a big hatch, they had a special hatch who pushed all the stuff out and they were coming down in a steep curve and suddenly the floodlights, the searchlights went on and guns started, obviously the Germans were waiting for them and because they just went straight up, they took off and went off but he said he always wondered how the poor devils on the ground got on. And they did quite a lot of that sort of thing and they had, they were, they had a nasty time when they took off one night and the plane had been going, they’d been up all day, they’d headed up and down on air test and as they took off, one engine failed as they were taking off and they carried on, I mean three engines were, the Stirling was a tough plane, even though it couldn’t get the height, but second engine failed as they went over the end of the runway, and then the third engine started coughing and it was wintertime and there was a ploughed field next to the airfield, I mean they got a full bombload and the pilot said to Jock the engineer, he said; ‘I’ll have to go in’ and shouted out crash, you know, crash positions and they went in and he, Jock was up with the pilot, he was up in the cock pit and he said, all the earth, we went nose, he said, all the earth came over the cockpit but, he said, fortunately, he said, the little escape hatch so, he said, the pilot went out there and I went out the back and got out and we all got out and he’d expected the bombs to go off but nothing happened. So they were very fortunate and one [unclear] them was, see they’d had problems with this particular aircraft several other times and they had actually come back, they didn’t, I think they’d only returned twice with a bum aircraft and then this crash, and one the engineers, warrant officers came up to them and said: ‘Uh, yellow aye!’ and apparently he got roasted because they found out this aircraft was in a bad condition but it still went on flying and we were very interested because I think the Bomber Command War Diaries gives a detail of every aircraft that flew. And Jock was really through one day and he said, Jean, he said, this is so interesting, apparently it was sent off to a Heavy Conversion Unit and it only did two flights and then it disappeared somewhere over the coast of Ireland, the west coast of Ireland out to the Atlantic it disappeared with the crew, the [unclear] crew and never seen or heard of again, so obviously it was still playing out. He said there were always bum aircraft, lemons, like cars and but they were very lucky to get out of that. And then another time they were on their way to target and they were hit by cannon shell and an Me 109 went underneath them, obviously aiming for the engine, hit the starboard side, blew his flight engineer’s panel out and, cause all the lights, everything went out, and shrapnel flying around and this great big jagged hole and you could see the starboard engine and he was a bit stunned and he said: ‘I couldn’t breathe’ and he said: ‘I could feel this something warm dripping down my back’ and but he said, ‘it didn’t hurt, he said, my knee hurt’, he had got shrapnel, small shrapnel splinters in his knee and but he said, the navigator was groaning and he said, as soon as I sort of pulled myself together, the pilot was checking the crew round, fortunately the intercom was still working and he said, ‘engineer, are you ok?’ and Jock said; ‘I think so, I can’t breathe’. He said: ‘I’ll check’. Well, he found, he got a hydraulic pipe blown around his neck and that was what was dripping hot oil down his back, not blood [laughs] and his, a big lump of shrapnel had hit his parachute, bent his parachute buckle, harness buckle, perhaps bent it and set his Mae West off, that’s why he couldn’t breathe [laughs]. And it had wicker shade and gone, made a real mess, gone right into the groin of the navigator, I mean, the navigator sitting right behind the black curtain, you know, quite nice and all, nice and protected from anything nasty and he was the one who was the worst hit, well, he, Jock grabbed the first aid kit and he went straight up over and he, the navigator was in a really bad way and Jock gave him, cause they all had whole series of small morphines, he gave him morphine and cut and sliced his trousers and put a big shell dressing on his wound, he was and sort of dragged him to a lying down position and then he went to the wireless operator whose poor right hand was pouring blood and he said to him, he said to, don’t give me morphine, he said, cause he practiced Morse with his left hand, he said I’m carrying you on, he said, I don’t want to have morphine and go out to the wood, just shove a shell dressing on this and actually it was worse than it looked actually when they got back but they were still on their way to target so they were among a whole stream of bombers, it was very difficult turning round in a stream of bombers and the pilot said to Jock, he said, engineer, how is our fuel situation? Of course by that time Jock was checking with the torch what was left of his dials and switches and he said, can we get to target and back? As long as we have enough to get back home. And Jock said, that was the time I turned from a boy into a man [laughs] and he said, yes, so they went on and bombed and came back and they landed with very little fuel and the navigator of course went straight to hospital. The wireless op only had a week or two off, his wounds healed and, oh, Jock had only dressings put on his knee. But the others were ok, but, you know, see, they had no officer in their crew and actually that would have warranted in many crews that would have got a DFC or DFM for the [unclear] but DFM was not given out in great numbers and having no officer to sign it all because, yes, that’s it, the navigator was the only officer and of course he was in hospital so he wouldn’t be, he was unconscious by the time, so he wouldn’t have been able to write anything else, that sort of put the kibosh on any medal for the crew but I mean that was quite something I thought to go on to target and then come back. But that went on, as they all, oh you talked to a lot of the aircrew and I mean, that went on, there were so many crews that went west, that should have got medals, you know, for what they did. And, so he was very pleased and actually if he hadn’t died when he did, he would have, he did qualify for the French [unclear] again because he was flying, they did their last two ops just before, just on D-Day, they came, their last operation was on D-Day and that was another well-kept, that was a such a well-kept secret, I mean, the aircrew didn’t know, it went out that night, and they were given targets north of Normandy and they were dropping all these funny little sacking parachuters, which had firecrackers on them, so when they landed, it sounded as if they were firing shots and they dropped them, there a quite a lot of planes dropped them in various parts of Northern France and a lot of Germans did think that that was where the invasion was taking place and of course they went out, I think it was after midnight, cause it was only just into France, and they came back just as dawn was breaking and Jock was busy at his dials and only the pilot, the pilot must have looked down and he said: ‘Oh, boy, it is on!’ and he said, we all rushed and had a look and he said; ‘What a wall of ships!’ he said it the most amazing sight, he said, it send cold shivers down their backs and they’d also gone out and been minelaying a couple of nights before in the Gironde Estuary and he said, that was a terrible place for being armed, and he said, only three Stirlings went and he said their’s was the first to go in and of course they dropped these sea mines which are touchy even in the aircraft, you know, can go off and he said he looked round and his great friend was in the next aircraft, and was hit, went up and then the third bomb went up, so, they’d been given a route to come home across the South of France and then across the Channel, but the pilot had him put the nose down and went out in the [unclear], into the Atlantic and they came in through, came back through Cornwall [laughs], they didn’t want to know any more having lost their team mates [laughs].
AP: Ah yeah.
JS: But they often used to come, cause they laughed after they hit the target, they loved finding trains to shot up and any roadways and shot up any convoys and anything and they’ve would come back with bits of haystack and leaves of trees and [unclear] but the Stirling was, he used to say cause eventually he went on and became a flight engineer instructor on Lancasters and he said, yes, they were, they were wonderful aircraft cause they could do the distance, they could carry the arms but he said, he said, our Lancaster wouldn’t have survived that first crash with a full bombload, he said, they were beautifully built, he said, they were a lovely, comfortable aircraft and he said, they were so sturdy, and then they could fly very low, but how stupid of the Air Ministry to cut their wings of ten feet to get into the normal hangar, I mean why not build the odd hangar to conform to the wing? Say, were some funny things in the, there were some weird, weird things went on, you know, people with all sorts of suggestions and as I say, this front wheel of your bike, I was put on a charge cause I put the front wheel of my bike in, I was late on duty and I flung my front wheel of my bike in and the service police came round and of course you had a number on and tracked it to me and I was put on a charge! And I remember being marched in without my cap and of course was one of the officers I knew and worked for and he [unclear] said: ‘Now, what have you been up to?’ And the WAAF officer looked [unclear] [laughs]. There was a WAAF officer and someone along this sort of thing and he gave me three days jankers and I went down to the cookhouse cause normally you got all these filthy, big greasy ben maries [unclear], huge things, this big cooking greasy stuff, you’ve got them to clean out, but they said: ‘Oh, we’ve got nothing for you to do’ and they gave me some tea and cake [laughs]. It was a good laugh and it’s funny when we’re all, of course now I go into the Air Force Association and of course, we always go, my daughter and I always go to the Odd Bods November dinner and we meet up together and we, it’s, I mean, even for years all those old chaps and they were facing hell and you wondered how they had the nerve to do it and yet they all said: ‘Best years of our lives. Best years of our’, Jock said it, I said it, and I mean our living [unclear], I I’ve seen the ranks, living conditions and food was terrible and the living conditions were often awful and what you had to do. Cause we had, when we were at Lichfield we had to, at one period, probably be ’42, ’42 more than ’43, there was a lot of business, Germans were dropping odd parachutes, two or three parachuters and of course we had a fifth column of people who were Pro-Nazi, Fascists, some even before the war, Royal Family, you know, old Edward the 8th and his bird, you know, they were all quite Pro Hitler and, we, we were, that was when there had been attacks on planes, that was when they used to keep the planes all in a line or on tarmac and they started to put them down in dispersals, the ones that were in use, any spare ones would be dragged out and put on a farmers’, in farmers’ fields under the trees and we had a couple of Wellingtons near our Waafery, near the Waafery and we were asked, we were told to do guard duty and you’d, there’d be two or three of us and, I mean, it was so absurd, was at wintertime and we’d wear our gas capes which came neck to floor and airmen’s wellies so you had to ware about three pairs of socks, because you were in these great big wellies and our tin hats of course and gas mask respirators at the ready and we were armed because see, the WAAF, the Women’s Auxiliary Airforce, the auxiliary women, we couldn’t be forced to carry arms so we were armed with truncheons, there were three girls with truncheons and we’d be out in the rain and mud, parading round these Wimpeys, we opened the hatch, we used to open the hatch and get in and sit up in the pilot’s seat and, oh, I loved the smell of aircraft, so aircraft [laughs] and not long ago the RAF went to the museum at Moorabbin, you know it was so lovely to smell a real aircraft inside, those oils and petrol and everything and sometimes we’d have an airman with a rifle. And at the same time they also had, we had a mock invasion and all they, they didn’t know what to do with the WAAF because all the airmen had arms with, with blank, you know, ammunition, and they had thunder flashes and they were, there were two, there were the enemy and all the ones [unclear] and all the aircrew weren’t armed and they didn’t know what to do with the WAAF so they told us we had to go and sit in the toilets [laughs]. And I remember cause there were thunder flashes, being blasted out against the wall, just outside, cause they knew we were in the toilets and the others were chucking thunder flashes [laughs]. And we, we said, why can’t we be out among it all. Anyway, they, you know, we had all those sorts of funny things and at the same, around the same period, when there was a threat, a real threat of airfields being invaded and they said, if there’s a last minute stand [unclear] on parade one morning last minute stand, would any of you girls volunteer to learn to load Lee-Enfield rifles? And you would be at the back and the men would be throwing their rifles to you to reload, you’d be throwing back loaded rifles and so on and so on. Then we all stepped forward, everyone, we all wanted to carry arms, it was funny because some, quite a lot of men, especially the aircrew said, oh, they didn’t want women to carry arms, we were nice, gentle girls, women, we didn’t need to, what we wouldn’t have done to a German with a bayonet! We, I mean, my dad was in the army in World War I, and I always, you know, used to talk about bayonet charges and things. Anyway, we all learned, we learned to dismantle a Lee-Enfield rifle and to clean it and then we learned to arm it and so on, and then they said, the sergeant down the rifle range said: ‘Would any of you girls like to volunteer to fire a rifle?’ and we all stepped forward and he said: ‘Oh, there’s too many of you’, he said, ‘we only have five rounds each’ [laughs] at least we got to fire a Lee-Enfield rifle [laughs] and I came back with a big [unclear] [laughs]. But, I mean, we very always said that we couldn’t carry arms, it seemed ridiculous they had a whole army there of women who were dying to carry arms. The ATS, my sister in law, Jock’s young sister, she went into the ATS towards the end, she was called up and she went into the ATS and, but she was put in as a cook, they didn’t, as a conscript, they were just, you’ll be a cook, and they had a horrible time but a lot, some of the ATS girls they were our viewfinders on the keg guns but they didn’t fire the guns but they were, they were very good on the viewfinders and but we, we actually in WAAF actually had the best of the women services in the war, I think we worked alongside our main army, you known we were always there and among the aircrew and helping to do things and I mean, we had, you know, there were flying mechs and battery charges and girls they are all among working among the aircraft and we all ate together, we didn’t eat in separate messes, we ate in the airmen’s mess and, I mean, we did everything except sleep together. And some of the girls did [laughs] but, you know, I think we were much closer because the air forces is a nice service, you know, it's a sort of much more specialised and you get different type of person in the air force, I think. And I now belong to the Royal Naval Association, I’m only an associate member, a lot of us RAF people go to the Royal Naval Association which is only a [unclear], [unclear] or [unclear]. They were lucky, the naval people, cause like our RAF Squadrons and the RAAF were all on our squadrons so there was a great closeness between the RAF and the RAAF and the same with the navy, quite a lot our RNAF were in on British ships and there’s quite a closeness and cause they, they obviously got into, they got in with the ones down here, the naval people got down here, got in the British navy got in ex-services associations with the Cerberus crowd, and they bought a block of land and it’s a lovely big block and the Cerberus as a sort of war memorial put up this memorial building and it’s, it’s not huge but it’s got a large hall and big kitchen, toilets, and a bar and outside a big barbecue and it’s really nice and once a month they have a meal and they get together and of course there is always a Trafalgar Day in October, you go and we always have a big Nelson thing, and drink our toast and rum, tot of rum and apparently they British Navy send out every year, they send out this small keg of naval full strength rum which is, cause in the navy it was always, when everybody used to have rum everyday but it was always watered down, it’s very, very strong and they are still saying this Cerberus, this ex-service crowd, still send out, I don’t know how much longer they will do it, this rum and of course the air force crowd, we sit at one table and the navy crowd are so different to us, we are very prim and proper lot, we are behaved, cause they always make fun of us, sailors are very rough and the funny thing, their wives and so on, they all sit at tables on their own and the men all sit at tables whereas we’ve always air force have always been men and women together and they, they told us the first time on when we were invited first for Trafalgar Day and they said, you air force types, don’t stand when the royal toast and the toast to Nelson is said, because apparently in the old sailing ships not very much headroom, do you know, those sailing ships, tiny old sailing ships like Nelson was in and they had a complement of eight hundred, fourteen inches for a hammock, that’s where you slept, fourteen inches, you’ve [unclear] and I noticed that a lot of those ex-servicemen, the old chaps, they, there’s a lot of them missing fingers and arms and hands, quite and I mean, you don’t see this among air force crowd. Quite a lot of them have, you know, half an arm or several fingers off and obviously, you know, I suppose with their big guns and things, I suppose stuff and I don’t know anything much about the navy cause it’s only my, up in Lewis of course most of them go into the navy, there were only four men from the Isle of Lewis who went into the air force during the war, Jock had always wanted to fly since he was a little boy, he’d always wanted to fly, and I mean as a crafters son he got back his chance because there is not work up there and you know, money was small but most of the men went into the navy or the merchant navy and the only ones that went into the army would go into the Highland regiment, the Seaforth Highlanders in [unclear] cause he had two uncles who were pipers and his sister, one sister was called up into the ATS, his, other sister, his older sister, unfortunately she couldn’t pass the medical for the ATS cause she volunteered, and she went into the NAAFI, cause the NAAFI was a good backup, you know, they had those little vans and they had, ran the canteens and they were very, very good and you’d find each station would have its specialised, you know, cakes and things cause I knew at Lichfield they made beautiful [unclear] cakes and we always used to go out to the NAAFI event who did outside about 11, or 10, or 10.30, or 11, everyone used to go, everyone, officers and everyone used to go out with their mugs and you’d always say; ‘Tea and a wad!’ [?] [laughs] [unclear], pig lardy, heavy things, we were always hungry [laughs].
AP: Pretty good. Let’s have a look. You have spoken for an hour and twenty minutes without a break, that’s pretty impressive [laughs].
JS: [laughs] Well, I’ve got no one else to talk to!
AP:
JS: I’ve got the cat.
AP: You’ve got the cat.
JS: He’s lying on my bed in the bedroom.
AP: I’m more than happy to assist. You’re absolutely fascinating so far. Uhm,
JS: I talk too much.
AP: We love this sort of stuff, this is really, really good.
JS: But then, then my cousin, there was my cousin, now I’m talking about the Isle of Lewis and as I say, my husband he once he went to primary school and he won a scholarship which, living in the village where he lived, fifteen miles away from Stornoway, where the only secondary school on the island. He won a scholarship but there was no bus you had to board in town and his parents, this was during the Depression, his parents couldn’t afford the books because, sometimes scholarships had a living allowance for books, uniform and living out but there was nothing like that during that particular year, so he couldn’t go to secondary school and he, I mean, there was me, I had a grammar school education and I was a hopeless scholar, absolutely hopeless, the only thing I was ever good at was English and history, and I never got anywhere with anything until I went to Pitman’s College and then I come out here and I saw one of my daughters teachers, when she was at primary school, said to me, oh, you ought to study and become a teacher, because we were desperate for teachers, so I investigated and I did, I went through, did my GCSE and so on went up the exhibition building and did my HSC and did very well, it was totally different doing it as an adult. Well, I hadn’t got horses or boys, that’s a thing, the two loves of my, oh, I was a terrible flirt in the Air Force. I was a student, I’ve been a quiet, studious girl as I say horse mad and I got in the Air Force and I suddenly discovered men and I didn’t read a book, I had boyfriends galore, I found a little address book and all these addresses are Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, cause they all wanted you to write to them and we wrote letters to all, we’d sit on our beds and write letters to all these different boys you never saw again. But, I mean, love affairs were no sex, I mean to start with, VD, we were shown all these film of VD when we [unclear] training stations and that would put you off sex forever and if you were pregnant you were chucked out of the WAAF and you were never allowed, you could go back into the ATS if you’d had an illegitimate baby but you weren’t ever allowed back into the WAAF. Oh, we were very pure and high [?] but, uhm, cause Jock was shocked when I said, Oh, I said, the only thing that kept me a virgin was VD, the thought of VD and getting pregnant. And he said, oh, he said, I’m very disappointed in you, because I thought you had higher morals [laughs]. Well, I said, I didn’t want to get pregnant and I didn’t want to get VD.
AP: Oh dear.
JS: And when you’ve done the VD report for the station, for all the Czechs and the Poles, they were the worst. They used to have to go to Cosford once in a week to have these horrible, I won’t, well, you probably know what they used to, used to inject them with mercury and where but it was very painful apparently and we used to see the bus going and they all used to have their heads down and we used to see the bus going to Cosford once a week and we all used to go [laughs ironically], they all used to have their heads down [laughs]. And, as I say, I used to do the VD report and Lichfield had two satellite stations, Tatenhill and Church Broughton and they of course used to, uhm, they had Czechs and Poles. Now I mean, the Czechs and the Poles they were, they were so brave, oh, they hated, they loathed the Germans, they absolutely, as long as they could kill a German their happiest time but they were dreadful and of course in this VD report they had to say when they went to the MO and it was discovered, they had to fill in a form, they had to, legally didn’t have to give the name of the woman but they had to give where they, whereabouts they thought they contacted it, usually under a tree or in a field [laughs]. Contracted it, I should say. Or, and roughly the age, and the age could be anything, of the woman, I mean, they wouldn’t know, but the ages could be anything from fifteen to about seventy [laughs]. And of course, all the girls used when I was typing the VD report, all the girls used to come and look through the papers, weren’t supposed to [unclear] and titter and make very [unclear] remarks and, but they were the worst cause I and after the war I met several Polish, ex Polish airmen and I always used to say to Jock, oh, I don’t think I’d better shake hands with him [laughs]. And they were very nice people [laughs] so you know but we had men of every nationality you could think of at the service, you know, of the Commonwealth and so on you. We had lots of South Africans, New Zealanders. Now, the New Zealanders, they never had the funny accent they have nowadays, it’s funny, they spoke much more like Australian men. They didn’t have that funny twisted accent. I don’t’ know where they got that from, cause it’s really weird. And of course New Zealand, when we were going to emigrate, I wanted to go to Australia because I wanted to, we were living in Scotland and I wanted sunshine and of course all the.
AP: So you went to Melbourne [unclear]
JS: Of course, all the Aussies had told me what a wonderful country it was. Jock wanted to go to New Zealand because full of Highland, Gaelic-speaking Highland people and of course their Scottish country dancing is impeccable, similarly if you couldn’t go and of course they were only taking building, tradesmen or farm workers. So he, cause he’d gone back to his basic trade by then, he was maintenance engineer with British overseas, no, British European Airways. And he came out here, the old Australian National Airlines brought him out here cause they were so short of maintenance engineers so he saw it advertised, applied, they took him, brought him out six months ahead of me, cause they had hostels for me and, uh, so, when New Zealand was no good, he went down to London and applied to Canada house [?], he phoned me up and he said, we can be in Canada within three months and it was winter and I’d got flu and I, you know, I get, my nose was streaming, my eyes were streaming, I said, you’ll kill me if you take me to a country with all that snow and so he didn’t and so that’s why we applied for Australia and of course we’d read all these books about Australia and we decided, oh, the best place would be West Australia, the climate there was beautiful, Albany, and you know, the climate was supposed to be absolutely wonderful and cause ANA brought him out to Essendon aerodrome, so, he was Melbourne [laughs]. I remember when the first time we took the caravan up to Darwin and I’d only been in Darwin a couple of hours, and I said to Jock, Gee, how [unclear] would cost to move house and the furniture up here? Oh, I’d loved to have lived in Darwin. Cause Darwin years ago was lovely but the last time we went to Darwin it was, it had grown in population, it was very commercial but the first few years, when we used to take the caravan up North, it was lovely. This, and, people, all the young people used to stop, you know, older people and say: ‘Oh, hope you are going to stay up here, cause we, it was too many young people, we need some grandparent type people’. Have you always been in Melbourne?
AP: No, I’m from Sydney.
JS: Oh, your [laughs]
AP: Yeah, I came down from Sydney about five years ago for work. So.
JS: I’ve, you know, I’ve been through Sydney on the bridge, to go on the car, wiht the caravan, we’d been there over the, on the bridge and we’ve also been underneath.
AP: Oh yeah?
JS: And I’ve been to Sydney to change planes. I’ve never been to Sydney as a town.
AP: A lovely spot sometimes. Anyway, uhm, you were telling me before we started the tape, uhm, about something that was going on, one day when you were doing the, I think it was the group VD report about a certain squadron.
JS: Oh yeas, about that, about the.
AP: Yeah, so, can you tell us that story again for the benefit of the tape?
JS: Yes. God, what was it called the,
AP: Fauld.
JS: Oh yes, the Fauld, the day the Dam went up, yes it was in 1944 and it was the Fauld explosion and uhm, oh yes and I’d gone upstairs and was typing away at this huge, great big long-carriage and those long-carriage typewriters you never see them now, great big thing, very, very heavy and so I was typing away and it was this funny rumble that went through my feet, I have felt this funny and heard, we all stopped because it sounded like air raids and, we, it was only, must have been seconds, barely minutes and suddenly this rumble got bigger and my typewriter really big jammed, it went [makes a repeated booming noise] and I sort of set back and I looked at the dirty, green wall in front of me and there was this little crack and it started to open and it came down in a big curve and I just, I just watched it, cause funny it’s like when you’re in an air raid when you bombs and you tend to watch them, you’re sort of rooted to the spot. I mean I remember once was a terribly bad crash on our airfield at Lichfield and we were all in our office, we heard this terrible thud, screech, metal, you knew it was a crash, that metal noise and we looked out of the window, the side window and there’s this flame and it was sliding across the airfield, right out on the airfield, on the runway and it was beginning to slide straight towards training wing and we just stood there, we were just stood rooted to the spot. That was the time when, it was horrible. The operators see the girls at the radio while the radio operators took the planes up, and now the girls, they rushed to the window when this thing happened and they left us with the intercom switched on and of course, see, those Wellingtons you know were geodetic and they had axes along the body but obviously the boys were burning, the thing was a degrees of heat and they were screaming and you could hear it from above, you‘d hear the screams, it was horrible and we were rooted to the, I, everybody, nobody said a word, I mean, I, nobody passed out or anything like that, but it was really horrible and of course then the fire, cause naturally the blood wagon, the ambulance and the fire engine were always right beside flying control, they went straight out cause they got foam and it had stopped but it was a fact that it could actually, I mean if nothing had been done, it could have banged into our building. We were so struck with that and it was like that in that Fauld thing, and we were sitting, as I say, immediately somebody said, oh, there must be a bad air raid somewhere, funny we haven’t heard the sirens because often we did have [unclear] and I mean once our airfield was very lightly attacked by one aircraft and I mean, you’d simply, you’d, over the tannoy they’d simply say even before the sirens died you’d hear: ‘red alert, red alert’ and we’d always have our respirators with tin hats on our chairs and all you do is [unclear] your respirator on your shoulder, put your tin hat on and all fire alert, slip trenches outside, you’d run like hell once you got outside because you were scared and you’d, the slit trenches were so nasty because they’ve been used as toilets [laughs] by people going to a frat night they were very smelly and I know, a friend of ours, poor men, they jumped, he was the first one to jump into the slit trench and someone had obviously been doing the other business in there and when he got out, all the others came on top of him and he noticed and he was sitting there a nasty smell and when he got out, he found his knee, he’d gone straight into someone’s poo and he said he got a knife and cut his, he said, he couldn’t bare it [laughs]. Like poor Jock, one time on an air test and he was moving about the aircraft and they hit an air pocket cause they were low and [unclear] went up and he and the mid upper gunner were both, and they couldn’t move because of the way you are rooted you know in the planes and he said, he saw in slow motion [unclear] came over. They’re supposed to be emptied every trip and it all come over the two of them, [unclear], he said, we, he said I took my flying without equipment on a stick [laughs]. Oh God, he said, I went straight up to the showers, he said, I just showered in my uniform and then he said, I took that off and he said I was in the shower spitting it [laughs]. But and the mid upper gunner was the same, but poor old Charlie [unclear] but there was, it was always very pooey, very smelly in the, in the trenches because you’d sit there with your tin hats and things do fall on you, you’d hope no bomb would fall on you but, I mean, we weren’t like the fighter stations, they had it regularly, they were bombed regularly, down more on the coast down south we were, we were lucky we were in the Midlands but I mean along it was all Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, cause Jock’s Squadron he was 90 Squadron and they were in Suffolk. Cause they always used to rendezvous at Cromer Pier when they were went off, the you know when the whole gaggle of paints [?] were going out, they’d fly from their station and go up round and round to get height and then go straight out and they’d have some to rendezvous, Cromer Pier was a great place for a lot of them and others would, they’d get into formation and then they’d pick the other formations up, all up from all up the coast and we went to Cromer when we, one trip we had overseas in the 1970s I think, we went to Cromer and it was beautiful day because I know he was swimming in the North Sea and I, he said: ‘Oh, I’m lying here, look at me up!’ Thinking about me circling around over here before we went out, we’d stay off and went in from their area, they went in to France over the Frisian Islands. Cause he always said, I always put, as soon as the pilot said enemy coast ahead, he said that’s when I always pull my, he was always scared of his eyes being burned, you know, injured, and he said, I always pull my googles down cause some of them didn’t and got their eyes burned. He said, I was always terrified of getting my eyes burned. But he never, he still, you know, they had three pairs of gloves, silk and wool and then leather, but he nearly always worked with his silk gloves cause he was using bars and things and [pauses] but as I say, I still think, you know, but we probably don’t remember the nasty parts, you only think of the fun parts. When you say it was, it was the best years of our lives. I tell you why, because after the war it was so horrible. After the war we went back into Civvy Street and you had this awful feeling you weren’t wanted. See, people had, who’d been in fact prison officers [?], they’d all got jobs and they were looking after, this is my job and we don’t want you people coming in and move, you know, with all, you’ve got medals and we haven’t and so on and so on. And then the idea was that we should all forget the war, get on with the peace and everything was so grey and actually we were then more severely rationed, that was when bread was rationed and onions and potatoes. I cued for hours for all those things, because we were feeding Europe and particularly because we had to feed poor old Holland, cause they were starving but we were feeding the bloody Germans, that’s what got up our noses and we should have done what Joe Stalin said, Joe Stalin said at one big conference, he wanted Germany totally disarmed and made into the food bowl of Europe, got rid of those bloody Germans. I still hate them and I’ve got German blood in me, I’ve got Prussian, great grandfather. I still hate them like mad, I can’t forgive but then I was going to tell you about my cousin. Can I tell you about my cousin?
AP: You certainly can. [unclear]
JS: My cousin, there was another boy like my husband, he, now, his was a very sad story. His father, like my father and my father’s two sisters both married men during the war that were in the trenches. My sister Nora married this soldier and he ended up the war, after the Great War, in a lunatic asylum, he’d, he was shell shocked, absolutely shell shocked. And Nora always told her little boy Bill, who was born, she was married I think in 1916 and had him in 1917 and she told Bill, growing up, that his father was dead. And because in those days to be in a lunatic asylum, you know, was like having a baby illegitimately, it was one of these, you didn’t talk about those sort of things, Gee, woman had a Hysterectomy, that was women’s [unclear] and you didn’t mention that, everything was so, [makes a shushing sound] proper, and anyway poor Bill, he grew up. Uhm, Nora went and when my grandfather was widowed, he went up to Lancashire or Derbyshire, where he’d come from and he opened a little corner shop and Nora went up and lived with him and worked in the shop and Bill grew up and went to the local primary school but then Grandad died during those years and the shop apparently wasn’t making much money so, Nora came down and stayed with us and Bill, they stayed in our house for a little while until, and aunt Nora’s a widow of a service man, was supposedly a widow of a service man, she got a council house, we were living in Welwyn Garden City at that time, I was going to the local Handside Primary School and Bill came along too. Now Bill would have been about three or four years older, three or four years older than me, and I’ve got his photo somewhere, and I couldn’t find it today and he was a nice looking boy and of course you know, I was only a little girl about eight or something like that and, eight or nine, and, oh, I was in love with Bill, I used to tell my parents and everybody I was going to marry Bill and I remember, cause Bill loved, he had a Meccano set and Bill loved his Meccano and cause with my little itchy [unclear] fingers, I remember, could I have put that, no! He hated me, I was always around his Mecco, trying to or reading his comics, and I remember at school, we were changing classes one day and the big boys came out of whatever they’ve been and he’s, and of course I’m saying to all my other friends, that’s my cousin, that’s my cousin Bill and you know, Bill’s looking everywhere except, we were twelve or thirteen. So, you know, that’s my cousin and so they went and lived in their house and eventually they moved to Luton in Beds, and Luton was the centre of the hat-making industry, of course in those days I mean everyone made more hats, felt hats, women wore hats all the time, straw hats and felt hats in the winter and my aunt was pretty good at her job and Bill got a job as a young, he had, when he left Handside Primary School, during Depression there were so few jobs he got a job as an errand boy. They would take boys as errand boys on delivery bicycles, like you used to see in that funny comic series Open All Times [sic], it how you would have seen it on TV, and always had errand boys. I mean, when my mother went shopping, she would carry a little shopping basket but she would only get the perishables like the meat or eggs, a bit of cheese or fish, she would carry that home, everything else was delivered either sometimes by delivery man, mainly by errand boys on funny big arm bikes with a huge thing. And errand boys were all everywhere, of course they got a pittens [?], I mean, there was no real big dole or anything in those days, so, they only got a little bit above of what the dole would be and as soon as they, all these errand boys turned eighteen, see, they had to go on to adult wages, so they were all sacked. So that was when Nora moved to Luton and Bill got a job in a factory, you know, he was just a general factotum sweeping up and so on and he could see, like a lot of boys of that era, that it was much better in the forces, so he joined the Royal Air Force in those days when they used to wear the breeches and the grey patties and tunics up to your neck and the peak caps and he was stationed at Cardington where the balloons were, all the big balloons. And RAF Cardington and of course he saved up and bought a motorbike and so on and my dad had had a motorbike and they were motorbike crazy, he used to come over and see us a lot. And then of course, uhm, he, that’s it, he went in, he hadn’t got the educational qualifications to go to Halton, to the School of Aircraft Apprentices to be a fitter because you had to have secondary education for that, with maths and so on. He went into the trade of, is not a trade now, machine tool oiler and setter, next, really, a machine, he would end up as a machine setter which was a very good trade. So, that was what he was doing when war started, and about the same time it was, it was beginning in 1943 when all the four-engine bombers were starting to come in and we were really doing something over Germany, we were the only service other than the navy, the only service really doing anything in the war. And Bill wanted to go as aircrew, I don’t know why he never said why, and he, he applied to be aircrew and they turned him down, saying, you know you are a school tradesman, someone will have to be trained in your place, stay as you are. So he said, right, I’ll go on strike. Well of course he was marched up to the commanding officer who said: ‘I could court martial you and that would be the end of your air force career’. But he said: ‘I’ll tell you what, boy, he said, you can go in as aircrew and can go in as a bloody bomb aimer’. So, he went in, he was trained as a bomb aimer, he was at Skellingthorpe. Now he was on Lancasters. Now, the Air Force in 19, 1943, ’44, I think it was October 1944, the Air Force had been trying to decimate Brunswick because it was full of factories, war factories and they’d been, they’d had raid after raid, there was going to be a really big raid, a huge raid on Brunswick and that night the huge [unclear] went out including Bill’s Lancaster and they were all so even other, this shows you how our Air Force had grown from 1942 when we were couldn’t make, could barely make a thousand, there were other small diversionary raids on that would draw fighters away and it was a highly successful raid. It was, the town was absolutely decimated. They only had three or four minor raids on it afterwards, just to clean up and only one of our aircraft was missing that night. That was my cousin’s aircraft. I managed to find this out. I found out from the Bomber Command War Diaries and then I was in the library only a month or two ago, and there’s was a wonderful book which I had written down somewhere which has all, it’s a big book about all our prisoners of war, it has all our prisoners of war and of course Bill’s name was in. And apparently they were badly hit and their navigator, funnily their navigator, navigators always seem to get hit, their navigator was badly injured and they, I mean, it must have been hell in the plane because apparently, you know, it was going round and how, how on earth you can move about in a plane that is going down like that I don’t know. They, he said, he told us afterwards, he said, two of them, he and another, the engineer apparently, had to drag the poor old navigator to the biggest exit and his parachute came open, started to open in the plane because they just had to bundle everything out but he seemed to go down alright but they, they never, then he jumped and the other man jumped, that must have been the gunner I think. When they got down, when they landed in Germany, cause it wasn’t far from the target, they, cause he’d forgotten all of the correct things to do, he didn’t take his helmet, and all the hoo-ha getting them out, didn’t take his helmet off, and he was nearly strangled, all the cords went round his neck, he was [mimics a strangling noise and laughs] and then his big flying boots he had they were unzipped, they came off, [laughs]. So there he was in his socked feet and they couldn’t find any of the other crew in the dark of the night and they started to down this long road and you know on the continent they very often they put all this plane trees along the sides of the road and there were all these sapling trees with thick sacking wrapped round them, so to keep them up to sporting post cause they were, so he and the other bloke they cut all this sacking off to wrap around Bill’s feet and they looked around and there were all these plane sacking across the road, all these [unclear]. And he said the next thing is a couple of nights, he said, it was very cold, he said, a couple of nights we just got water, rain water, where we could find it in the fields and he said, we got turnips from the fields and ate them turnips and carrots and he said, we got to this little township and he said, in the dark we could see this building with all these bikes outside. We thought if we can get a bike how much easier and cause they knew the direction they were going, you know, towards the west trying to get to our troops. Anyway, they both grabbed the bikes and cause they must have made a noise, next thing all these German troops come out and they take them prisoners and apparently it was outside the SS headquarters [laughs]. Then, the next thing, he was an officer, now, that what I always think about my cousin Bill, his bomber aimer training, he’d been send over on the ATS scheme to Canada and he’d obviously the smart lad, been commissioned, you know, I mean, drop us off a commissioned, who wouldn’t take it, but Bill took it, and he was, he came out as a flight Louie. So, he went to Stalag, the officers camp, Stalag Luft III, the great escape camp and cause he talked, I mean, he didn’t tell us an awful lot but they were all helping, you know, that were these, they made bags to wear inside their trousers to take the earth and they’d sort of sprinkled the earth if they were walking about or playing games and he said, oh, he said, I could have been in the last group, he said, to go, he said, all us tail enders, he said, of course by that time they’d been captured and but he told us quite a bit about that terrible march that the Germans did, not just from Stalag Luft III, but from several of the prisoner of war camps. They were going to massacre the prisoners but why they started, they started to march them to the east and it was the middle of winter and of course a lot of them had thin shoes and uniform thin and they didn’t have any, they had a bad couple of holes of thin potato, growl potatoey water and they were all being marched along with all these German guards and if any of them fell by the way and didn’t pick themselves up, they’d either shoot them or bash them with a rifle butt. And I mean, Bill didn’t say anything much, just told us about this and he said, fortunately, he said, I, and he wasn’t a very strong chap and he said, you know, he said, it was pretty sickening, he said, we were helping the ones that were really, couldn’t walk but, he said, it was pretty sickening and fortunately we ran into, oh, we were spending, we’d been put into an empty prisoner of war camp for overnight and he said, fortunately or unfortunately the Russians came along. But, he said, there was a lot of problems with the Russian soldiers. They were trigger-happy and he said, we were warned that if we tried to sort of get out of the camp to start going to the east again, to try and join up with the British who weren’t far away, that we would, you know, that these trigger-happy Russians and he said, they came into our prisoner of camp and they treated us as if we were the enemy. He said, they just took wrist watches and all the money, anything of any value. They took even cat badges and things like that. And he, so they were told to play it very cool, and be very quiet, and just, they stayed in this prisoner of war camp for a few days and behind the barbwire and the Russians were circling around outside and suddenly the Americans appeared full force, tanks and guns and things and they immediately, the Russians sort of, they ushered the Russians, there were only a few Russians by then, they ushered them off and took the aircrew to an American camp, to a British camp but he said it was a pretty nasty situation. He said, when you’ve been a prisoner of war and then suddenly your allies come and treat you almost as badly.
AP: Said one of my interview subjects a few weeks ago, he said: ‘Then we were liberated by the Russians’, he said.
JS: There.
AP: Actually, we were recaptured by the Russians [laughs]
JS: Yes, that’s what he said, that’s what it was like, and he said, you didn’t feel comfortable, you didn’t feel safe,
AP: Very, very similar.
JS: Weird.
AP: Strange stuff. So, Bill came home [unclear]?
JS: Bill came home but it was all very sad. Now, we came out here in 1952 and Bill had, he’d had a job and he’d got a very nice girlfriend, they were going to get engaged and then his mother, apparently, I mean, we weren’t near him at the time cause my father said, if only I’d known, you know, but his mother then said, you can’t get married Bill, there’s mental problems in our family, in your father’s family and he and I think Nora was very possessive and I think Nora wanted him to be there for her life. And she, I mean, had, we don’t know how she brought it to him but she more or less said, you know, if I, in the end she told him, you’re father’s a raving lunatic in a padded cell and Bill said, I want to go, I didn’t know I had a living father, he said, you should have told me years ago, I want to go and see him and of course there was a real breakup between them and in the end she gave him the address of this place. He went to this mental home and he saw his father, more or less a slobbering lunatic, you know, and in a padded cell. And he came back, broke his engagement, I think he had a complete breakdown and he was having a treatment, he went in as a sort of outpatient and apparently he was getting on very well and he got a job as a gardener and he was still having light treatment but of course he got to know a young nurse there and of course the authorities would never let the nursing staff make boyfriends of the patients. So she was immediately posted somewhere else and I suppose he saw another friendship gone. I mean, the poor boy was probably craving for love and I just, look, I go around, I’m sure these years since Jock died, if I were religious, I mean, I’m an atheist, if I were religious, and if I were a catholic, I’d say I’d be going through a sort of Purgatory because I’ve been looking at all the things I should have done, I should have been a better daughter, I should have done better at school, I should have been a nicer wife, I mean, I wasn’t nasty but I was, you know, things I shouldn’t. And I think of Bill, and torture myself, if only you had kept, you know, written to him more often, if only you’d asked him to come out, we were living in a caravan over on the north side of town on our block of land, building our house out of pocket more or less, building where [unclear} house our first home and I couldn’t sponsor him. And the next thing, he was living in digs and working as a gardener and I suppose he just had this complete, what’s the use, because I know the feeling myself. And I had a letter from his landlady, apparently he put his head, and when she was out one day he put his head in the gas oven and I mean, my lovely cousin Bill, and I, a year I was so fond of him and it broke my heart. And nobody else in the family took more. Jock didn’t know him well and dad and mum didn’t take much notice. And my dad was very hard, he was very hardened by World War I, and what he went through, and you know, I, it haunts me all the time, that nice boy and I mean, you know, flying and so on and then, every sort of romance, every bit of love broken up and I, blame my, well, look as I always think of mental hospitals, because that’s what happened when Jock fractured his skull, and, oh, he was, I mean, I could, it was a huge and I mean nowadays he probably would have had a brain operation, fortunately he had very strong bones but you could feel this huge jagged bone underneath his skin, huge scar and he said to me, he wasn’t going to ask me to marry him cause he said, he said, I in the end he did and he said, look, he said, I lay it on the line, he said, if you marry you are not going to get the man you would have got had I not had this accident, he said, and I know what it’s done to my brain, he said, I know you won’t get the man that you deserve. And, I mean, I was madly in love, I didn’t care and, but, I know he did, he wasn’t nasty or anything, but he had a nose operation, uhm, oh, in the 1980s, ‘70s, had a nose operation and when the, he had a, like me, he had a deviated sept, to my [unclear] had it done, my nose was twisted and his nose was badly twisted and he couldn’t breathe well and he had this [unclear] surgeon, she said his bones were all overgrown and pressing on nerves and he used to have these occasional days, a couple of days when he would have a terrible headache and he would wake up in the morning, he’d still go to work but he would, he wouldn’t talk to me, he’d just look at me, glassy-eyed, his eyes would just sort of glare at me and he wouldn’t say a word, he wouldn’t answer me and it would all clear over, I mean, I didn’t mind that, it didn’t worry me, he wasn’t cruel or anything to me. But, I mean, I put it down to what he had on his head. But, he was taken from the local hospital to the big service hospital at Rauceby out in Lincolnshire, very big hospital which had been a mental home, a mental hospital. And I used to go, I used to walk about five miles, my bosses used to let me off early, they were very good and I used to walk about five, used to walk down the old roman road, the old way and right out in the middle country this big, huge building and all these corridors and every so often they’d be huge, heavy doors with double locks on because they were all pushed back with great big long corridors and then every now and again there’d be a little passage and that led to the padded cells. And I heard groaning one day and I tiptoed, I was on my way to see Jock, I tiptoed down and there was this poor young aircrew boy, I mean, he didn’t see me, he was bandaged over his eyes, he obviously burned top to bottom and he was hung on straps and he just got holes for his nose and mouth and all bandaged up with his arms up like this and he was groaning away and he was and I actually saw all this sort of pale blue padding, all ceiling, walls, floor, everything, they put the very worst burns cases in there, I suppose peace and quiet and, cause a lot of them were screaming you know, would disturb the other patients. But I know Jock must have been very ill because when I first came to visit him, the RAF nursing sister, she said: ‘Are you his fiancé?’, I said: ‘Well, we’re not engaged but we are going to get married when the war ends or when the war’s over’ and she said, you know, you know your boyfriend is very seriously ill, she said, I want to warn you, he is very seriously ill. And I mean, all they did with him there, he had his head sort of wedged in a wooden frame and he lay there for a couple of weeks in a wooden frame and they fed him stuff like [sighs] you don’t see it now, it’s sort of made from bones and, bones and brain and stuff that we used to be called, it was called something in old-fashion, it was like a sort of jelly, carsford [?] jelly, that’s it, it was made by bones and I think brains and it was the most tasteless stuff, cause I had to taste if his, cause it was supposed to help remake bones [unclear].
AP: Ok.
JS: So, that was, he obviously was very ill but they never cleared, they never gave him an x-ray to after, he was x-rayed when he had the accident, never gave him an x-ray to clear him and he managed to get back onto flying because he went for his aircrew board to see if he was fit for flying. And there was, there were two doctors and the old chap more or less told the other bloke he could go, the other doctor he could go, he said, oh, I’ll deal with this case and he was an old doctor and he came from one of the Hebridean Islands and he spoke Gaelic and of course he saw from Jocks docs where he came from and they spoke for about an hour or so in Gaelic and the doctor apparently said: ‘Ah, you are fit for flying!’
AP: So this, I think we were talking about that before we turned the tape on. This was the motorbike accident for Jock.
JS: Mh, yes.
AP: Wasn’t it?
JS: That he, he had scars, I mean, you know, cause his googles were broken and his nose was damaged and the size of his mouth was split, his eyes were all split at the side, he had slight scars, but it didn’t damage his beauty, I think he was quite nice looking [laughs]. But he was the love of my life, he was a lovely man. We laughed our way through time and it was all giggle, giggle, giggle, all the time.
AP: Very good. Uhm, what else do I have. Can you, well, we might back up a little bit. Can you tell me where you were and what your thoughts were, obviously you’ve already told me that you expected war to come but when you actually heard that Britain is at war. What were your thoughts and feelings and what were you doing at that point?
JS: Well, that’s rather dreadful because I told you I was in the Ministry of Aircraft Production and obviously war was coming, well war was coming very close because that, you know, what’s his name, had been over, Chamberlain had been over and come back with a piece of paper and then of course Germany had walked into Czechoslovakia and in that interim period we were working twenty-four hours, they’d got camp beds in a big room and we were and it was a Sunday and I was on duty, I’d, cause I was living at Amersham at the time, I’d come up, I’d think I’d slept the night an hour in the bed there which was in the Ministry of Aircraft Production was, the offices were in Berkeley Square and we, in the West End of London just walked up and Piccadilly was just and the Green Park was just up the road and I, we were called, they said to, we were working and they said to us girls we are all going down to the big hall because there is going to be a speech by the Prime Minister, because we all knew Germany had [unclear] and everyone was cock-a-hoop, oh, we’re going to be at war, oh whack-o!, sort of thing and of course, see [unclear], I mean, in 1939 I was seventeen, young and silly. We all were, a big typing pool of girls, all silly girls and we sat in the hall and the speech came on and he said we are now at war and we all said whoopee! And the air raid siren went and we were told to go to the shelters, or go down the corridor and we all rushed to the big windows and there wasn’t a soul to be seen in Berkeley Square. The Queen Mothers, the Queen’s dressmaker William Hartnell [sic] had room, had his big shop and rooms just opposite, not a soul to be seen anywhere, only a big red big fat barrage balloon going slowly up. And we were all, where are the Germans? And we all thought it was wonderful, then we all sang, Pack Up Your Troubles and It’s a Long Way to Tipperary and we were all throwing paper around and thought it was wonderful. And then of course I went home and my father said: ‘Bloody little fool!’ [laughs] He said, you wait, you don’t know what war was like, he said, now, and I remember when Dunkirk happened because I had an aunt, my mother’s sister married my uncle and they lived on an island at Thames Ditton, which isn’t far from Surbiton in Surrey, an island in the river Thames, that’s where the Thames widens and Richmond Park, beautiful royal park, is on the other side. And my uncle had a little cabin cruiser I think and they were given orders, everyone was given orders to take, the navy came round to, all those people on the island had boats and they were given orders at Dunkirk time to take their boats, they had to take their boat down to some part in the Thames estuary and the navy would deal with them and they were all hitched up to a, I don’t know whether it be onto a torpedo boat or a destroyer, I don’t think a destroyer would be too big, they were hitched up on lines and they were taken over to pick men up and brought them back. He only went over the once, cause I think he had engine trouble coming home and you know, all this sort of thing was happening and I and dad said, after Dunkirk I mean it was only then the Battle of Britain started almost and I remember we, dad and mum and I went for a walk and dad, we were talking about the war and he said, I don’t know, he said, what have we got? He said, we’ve only got these young men and a few young men with planes and he said, they are going to be overwhelmed by the German Air Force, who’d been practicing in Spain in the Spanish war, he said, they are going to be just shot down and he said, I just wish I’d kept my World War I revolver with three [unclear], one for you, one for mum and one for me. And that was dad, he said, it’s going to be a bloodbath if they come over. But then again quite a lot of us in years later in the ex-service things, we were talking, there were all, I mean, there was the man in the street who could do what he’s told and he couldn’t care less, as long as he’s got a warm bed and three meals a day and I mean, Hitler had obviously impressed the German people, I mean, obviously, well, I mean, they had been in a bad, in a terrible way in the Depression and we were, and we’d come through that terrible Depression and I mean, if you had someone who started to tell you, oh, we are going to do this and we are going to do that and we, you know, we are all going to live in a united Europe and do very well, and a lot of the, a lot of the upper crust, a lot of the aristocracy were very Pro-Hitler and, but there was in recent years, there have been things discovered, there’s been an underground headquarters found which, they’ve got no records of anywhere in the War Office or, anyway and apparently it has come out that there was a big, like resistance movement already being organised by Churchill and the patriotic people, very patriotic leaders of the country. Now there would have been civil war I think, I think it would have turned into civil war. You know, lot of us ex-service people have been talking, cause I’ll tell you this. In recent years, with the way life is, with the permissive life and it’s all me, me, me now and the way things are going politically, I mean everywhere not just our [unclear], our politicians are bloody twits, all of them and everywhere seems to be the same and all these do-gooders and letting all these people into Europe and a lot of us ex-service people are saying, perhaps it would have been better, saying, was it worth it? Was it worth all those lives lost? Would we have been better under Hitler? If you’d kept your nose clean and done what you were told you’d probably be just as well off. Cause the German people were. The only thing is of course, you’ve got things like the, those concentration camps, I mean, you’d think of that. The concentration camps, I mean, would we want concentration camps? This is the thing. You’ve got. And I mean, I was only reading the other day about the Japanese, if we hadn’t atom bombed them, they had, form the Emperor down, they had been given orders that every prisoner of war, civilian as well as service, which would have been a hell of a lot of civilians cause they had a lot of Dutch people and so on were to be massacred, it didn’t matter how you do it, squashed them, hanged them up, knifed them, staked them, all the most horrible of things, that every non-Japanese was to be got rid of, so, I was just as well we get the atom bomb off, cause we saved a lot of innocent people’s lives. But I mean, you know, there’s quite a lot of us, especially you know like in the navy get-togethers and things, and everyone says, was it really worth it, when you think of all your mates. And I think more or less one of the reasons that we say it was the best time of our lives, it was a wonderful time in the majority of people, civilians and service, we were all pulling together, we all had one ideal, and it was a very legitimate war. We had one ideal and there was the mateship, the companionship. I mean, I never came across anything nasty, I never came across rape or anything in the services, in the women’s services and everyone was so, you know, working together and the great comradeship and friendship and helping each other, cause life was difficult and harsh at times and we all helped each other. And, you know, you would put your friends before anything else, you know, to help your friends and support them and perhaps I’d think it’s more that when we say it was the best years of our lives, that terrific comradeship. And it really to me and of course to me all the time and then it’s something we all say in the RAF association, you know, those young men who sacrificed their lives and the way they were treated after the war, the way the bomber boys were treated and they must never be forgotten. My daughter gets on my nerves cause she said, oh, one day will come and everyone will forget them, I said, no, they won’t after all they don’t forget Nelson and the sailors that fought at Trafalgar, they don’t forget the soldiers that fought at Waterloo, that saved Britain and there was, both of those were narrow squeaks, [laughs], I mean Waterloo was very near the knuckle, they were and so was Trafalgar, cause Nelson was, cause right from a little girl I always Nelson was my big one time hero and we’ve had a film of his life, we also, one year we had a film of a sort of mock-up thing that they did in Britain of these battleships and they had an actual broadside, cause Nelson, Nelson did it, instead of fighting each ship broadside on and opening the cannons, he got, he laid his flotilla, all the enemy battleships were like front and back, you know, all in lines and then he came along with his flotilla like that and they simply opened up, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, broadsides and split the ships right through and he brought that manoeuvre into being, I mean, he was a real, I read a lot about naval battles, I read, my reading, I read occasionally a biography or a travel book but my reading is all war books.
AP: [laughs]
JS: Oh yeah, I’m on the [unclear] and up there.
AP: I can see in the collection of books [unclear].
JS: I’m, I’ve been getting out of the library, I’ve been reading about [unclear], or I think submariners that’s even worse than bombers. I once met a submarine man and he was such a nice, gentle, little chap and I used to think, how can you go down under the sea, all those thousands of feet, oh, with depth charges?
AP: [unclear] a lot of fun.
JS: But I, I do, I read a lot and I’m reading a lot at the moment about World War I cause there have been a lot of programs, Tony, oh, he’s Sir Tony now, the man who does the walks through Britain, he’s done a very three or four weeks running on a Sat, Sunday afternoon about going through World War I. My dad in World War I, he was in the trenches and then they were sent to Mesopotamia and that’s of course Iraq and then they were sent to Salonica, but they were sent through Palestine cause I know he had a bathe in the Black, in the Dead Sea, and said, oh, you just float on the top of the salt water but he saw Lawrence of Arabia, Lawrence of Arabia, he and another man, they came on their camels and he said, we’d just come out of the lines, we were fighting the Turks and he said, we’re all filthy and dirty and he said, we were having our rest and he said, cause dad started as a private and went up to, he went right through the ranks and was commissioned in the field and went up to captain and he said, I was in the headquarters and he said, this man in all his silk, was only a short man, in all his silk Arab robes came in and they wanted maps to getting from somewhere to somewhere and they were going to take a place, they were going to take the surrender of a place and the Aussies got there first [laughs] and took the surrender, and all these [unclear], all these two [unclear] men [unclear] Arabs they got there after us but then before that dad had seen the Australian light horse going up not very far away cause I think it was Damascus and the Australian light horse came through going up to Beer Sheba and he said, again we were all filthy, our poor old infantry, cause he was in the rifle brigade, he said, oh, the poor dirty old infantry and he said, we were all lying around and he said, suddenly, he said, in the middle of all this filth and dust, he said, these, like a vison, he said, these tall, they all seemed to be tall according to them, these tall bronzed young men and he said, everything, he said, their horses were gleaming, their saddlery was glowing and he said they got these, whatever, they got, I don’t know what they’re called in their hands and just, and they were all laughing and the Aussies were all laughing and joking and you know, the rifle brigade gave them a cheer and saluted them and they were all happy and I mean that was a real fluke, that the Turks had their machineguns set for them there, they’d had mown the horses down if they’d been able to and they got them locked all in a mess and apparently, cause you, I mean, if you’re on a galloping horse you know what’s it’s like on a full gallop, it must be pretty deadly to see all these waving their swords and shouting and, you know, shrieking and shouting and horses neighing and the thud of hooves, just imagine it. And it was a complete triumph but that means at some poor devils [unclear] worst of course and horses. Yes.
AP: So, oh yes, I have, we’ve covered a fair bit. [unclear] We’re still going.
JS: I shouldn’t have kept you.
AP: No problem at all.
JS: Four hours.
AP: I’ve loved it, it was really good. However, uhm, I do have one last question. It may well be the most important one all my interviewees is this. Uhm, in your opinion, how is Bomber Command remembered and what legacy has it left?
JS: How is it remembered? Well, I suppose all of us who’ve had anything to do with them will remember them for the, they were the, they were our little white hope in all those long years when we were waiting and waiting to try and get into enemy, try and do an invasion, they were our only white hope and they were, I mean, if it hadn’t been for Bomber Command, bombing the factories, roads, every, keeping them on their toes, and keeping them short of things, it might have been terrible on D-Day if we hadn’t done something, I mean, why isn’t Bomber Command universally, why is it always this bloody Dresden thing comes up? All the time it comes up! And it seems to me, Canada and Britain seemed to have fostered this, I don’t know why and I would like to see Bomber Command remembered for the fact that they were our one big bastion against Germany for those interim years before D-Day and I would, well, I hope that, I would like to see them remembered more as a special thing, as we remember the Battle of Britain, I would love to see a sort of Bomber Command Day or something but the way they are still remembered I don’t like this attitude, it always comes up Dresden. And I mean why, you’ve got a German [unclear] who agrees that Dresden was hiding a lot of things and still there’s these people, so, well, I’m glad that there’s this big memorial in Britain because I think that it’ll be there and it’ll be like that wonderful memorial in Green Park, so at least you’ve got something always there in front of people, but I mean, you know, I still think there should have been a Bomber Command Day and a Bomber Command Medal, I mean, I mixed with these old chaps and it’s so sad, I don’t know, it’s so sad and remembering what they did, I remember you see the crews and their average age was between eighteen and twenty two, I mean, I think Jock’s crew they had their, I think their navigator was, he was grandad he was thirty, no, no, it was their, I’m sorry, it was their rear gunner, he was thirty, he was ex-metropolitan mounted police, cause the only way the police could get in the services was volunteer for aircrew, so he went in and yes, Ron, he was thirty two and married with children and they called him grandad but I mean, they were young men and I look at young men now and think my God, they were either in charge of a bomber and seven men’s lives or they were in a motor torpedo boat, interestingly, I never thought much of Jack, John Kennedy when he was president, I didn’t like the Kennedy family at all but I’ve read a very interesting book about him and he was a very brave young man too in that motor torpedo boat, a very brave young man but you when, and talking to them and of course you’d say how did you feel, what was, when you knew you could be going to your death? And a lot of them have said, well, you couldn’t let your mates down, you didn’t want to go but you couldn’t let your mates down, cause Jock said the first, oh, he said, I looked forward to my first op but he said, after that I didn’t look forward cause he said, oh, he said, when we went over the target and I looked down and he said it was a vision of hell and he said I still, he said, I still wasn’t that scared until I got back. But I remember, see some people, they were, you know they were terribly superstitious, I mean, Jock always, he had a [unclear] bit, those tiny [unclear] bits with a hole through it that one of his relatives gave him and he had a tiny little silver thimble which he got the leaves that he, when he went into the air force, he had a Christmas pudding at his aunt’s place and he got this silver thimble on a chain, teeny tiny little thing, the size of his little nail and he had one of my suspenders and he’d always have them pinned on his flying suit and, when he was cremated and I put, they were always kept in our bedside cabinet and I took them out and I tucked them under his pocket, you know, so that when he was dressed and being put in his coffin, they would go with him on his last flight but I mean, they had, the pilot had a teddy bear and he always had to rub its stomach when you got in so that was always stuck behind the pilots seat and some of them, he always told he’d get through he always said to me, don’t worry, he said, I might get injured but he said I have a feeling I’ll get through, now, other boys didn’t and I remember when I was giving out some of the Red Cross comforts one night when they were going on one of these small ops and from Lichfield, there was a lovely young navigator, he, blue eyed and very fair curly hair and always a lovely smile and you know, he’d been one of the boys, we’d all been in the pub together, singing, we all knew each other quite well and I remember him coming up and he leaned across the table and he was a big tall boy and he picked me up, just picked me up under the arms and gave me a big kiss and he said, bye bye Jean, he said, I won’t see you again, I mean, a great big smile, and I said, I can’t remember his name and I said, oh come off, he said, no, he said, I know, he said, I know I’m on it tonight and he didn’t come back and he was quite jovial about it but quite a lot of them and Jock had friends that he knew and he said some crews, he said, some crews, when you were on your operational station he said you knew as soon as they walked into the mess as a new crew, he said, they had the look and the smell of death on them, he said, you knew that they wouldn’t last long, cause on his squadron, 90 Squadron, theirs was the first crew for ten months to do, to get through full operational tour and actually they did thirty two and they were asked to go on a last one and his mechanics said to him oh, one of his mechanics said, oh god, I wish you weren’t going on this one, but he said, It’ll be alright and it was, thank God, that was the one where the two friends got blown up. But I don’t know ways remembering Bomber Command, how do you make people remember? I just hope that they’re never, well, I just hope they’re never forgotten for what they did because that was a horrible job. And I, you know, you, as I say, we used to see them and they were twitchy, you could see a lot of them were twitchy when they were going down to dispersals and they’d laugh, they’d be like little boys, ah, and they’d light a cigarette and then they’d take two puffs and then put it out and then light another one, I mean, and in transports the WAAF drivers taking them down, they liked the WAAF to take them down to their planes, they much preferred a WAAF than a man driver and it was the same with the wireless operators, the radio operators in flying control, they, oh, Jock used to say, oh, he said, when you are tired out and he said, you know you’re being told, a force comes on telling you, you’re going in a stack and he said, all you want to do is get your feet on the ground and he said to hear that quiet woman’s voice, he said, a man’s voice never did anything to me, he said, you hear that quiet woman’s voice talking you down, almost sympathising with you, and he said, you know, it did something for you and I think, you know I think, they were full of nerves. Jock said, you were, he said, you were always very quiet in the transport, he said, some would joke with the driver, the WAAF driver about her boyfriends or things like that but he said you’d, he said, the worst part was the waiting, he said, the waiting for the word off, cause sometimes when they were down by the aircraft all bombed up, it was cancelled and that was horrible cause he said, if it was cancelled you think oh god, I’ve got to go through all this again tomorrow night and every time they got back it’s one off towards the end of your tour and he said, once you got into your aircraft, he said, cause, engineers, the bomb aimer very often did the second pilot’s job during a trip but always take off and landing, the engineer was always with the pilot cause he helped the throttles and so on and switches and he said, you sat down, you did your cockpit check, you did your crew check, he said, you forgot everything, you had so much to do before take up, off and once you were up you had so much thing cause the engineers were checking labour entring every fifteen minutes, fuel thing and of course any lights going out or oxygen not coming through or things like that, they were always, he said, we are, he said, I was always busy, I didn’t have much time to sit down at all, but he said, you were always so busy, you never thought it was only, he said, we always used to be so glad, we always used to give a cheer when we saw the Channel coming back, he said, when you saw the sea [unclear] those usually be or everything going up from the coast, or defences, he said, you saw the sea, he said, you just prayed you got across the sea cause so many of them didn’t. And the awful thing was that of course some poor sods that landed on beaches and then the beaches were mined or the aircraft went into mined areas and blew up, just as they thought they were there. They did one time come, they were short of fuel and they had to use Woodbridge, you know, Woodbridge was a huge, right just over the coast, gigantic, but he said, they said, and the next one most wonderful thing was when he said you saw your beacon, cause that’s another thing that caused crashes coming home, the, all the, on the east coast all these huge airfields and their satellites all the circuits were intercepting so you got planes twiddling around everywhere, all the time during the war the sky was never free of aircraft, it seemed to be, always aircraft doing something cause they’d all the train, people training and then there were people going here and there to other stations and going off out. One of the most wonderful things was when I was down in London on leave, I was walking near Buckingham Palace I think, it was with my mother and aunt and walking near Buckingham Palace and a huge squadron, cause it was right near the end of the war and I mean they were just it wasn’t easy in those days, they were going over and it was, the war was almost into Germany and all these Flying Fortresses went out, hundreds of them went right over Buckingham Palace flying out, quarter of an hour later [makes a whooshing sound] along comes a little fighter squadron, cause they had to, they picked their fighter umbrella up cause the fighters were much faster, all these Hurricanes and Spitfires all riffing a long, making a lovely noise and it was quite inspiring because I’d only seen aircraft going out at night one by one and circling round and listening to the [unclear] in the clouds and that was, that was not as exciting as seeing a whole squadron, of cause they did a big box formation, they were quite classy, and once they, once their jolly old formations were broken they were really limping and we were better with our open formations and once they had, it was nearly, it wasn’t before the end of the European war but it was not far off, we had a conference at, oh no it must, no, no, this was at Lichfield so it must have been, no, must have been, I left, I left late 1943, I went to Group Headquarters so it must have been 1943, we had a Stirling bomber coming to this conference, a Lancaster bomber and a Flying Fortress, now you could see the three of them, a Stirling just towered, the Lancaster was fair and the Flying Fortress, which everyone said oh [unclear] big planes, it was so small and the Yanks took us, our boys took us over there [unclear] and the Yanks planes, I mean I wouldn’t like to be a gunner on an American fortress and you know with this wide open bitterly cold I mean they wore a lot of warm things must have been terribly cold and they were more or less each side gunner, they were more or less bashing buttons and there were all the machine guns, all strings of ammunition everywhere, you had to pick your way through these strings of ammunition and it wouldn’t have been very nice at all, wouldn’t have been nice at all, so and cause, you know, the Lancaster of course you’ve got the big bulkhead but you’ve got a bigger one in the Stirling cause Jock said there was always the trouble you know when you had to get down to the rear gunner and you got an awful long way to go and it was, and you’ve only got a catwalk, is bitterly cold [coughs] if you hadn’t got, even through your silk glove you could feel the cold if you put your hand on the side of the aircraft [coughs] then you get that bloody great bulkhead, climbing over there with all that flying kit [coughs] horrible.
AP: Quite, quite amazing. Well, I think you’ve covered all the questions I had.
JS: [coughs] [unclear]
AP: I only had to ask three of them. [laughs]
JS: I apologize.
AP: No, no problems at all, there is some fantastic stuff in there. [unclear] I love these sorts of interviews I love the best, cause I come in, I ask one question and I just sit back and listen.
JS: Oh, as long as you don’t mind, I do apologize.
AP: Ah, I loved it.
JS; [unclear]
AP: yeah, yeah.
JS: I’ll make another cup of tea.
AP: Thank you very much. I’ll turn this off.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ASmithJ160312, PSmithJ1601
Title
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Interview with Jean Smith
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:40:04 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2016-03-12
Description
An account of the resource
Jean Smith worked as a clerk in the aircraft manufacturing industry before the war and later served as a secretary in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served at 27 Operational Training Unit at RAF Lichfield.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Staffordshire
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1945
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
27 OTU
aircrew
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
control caravan
control tower
crash
flight engineer
ground personnel
love and romance
memorial
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Lichfield
runway
service vehicle
Stirling
superstition
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/PPennLE1701.1.jpg
824abb2c2b7f455b204aa46be93d7f9a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/APennL170622.1.mp3
0620d580b7438a89e75829dd538816b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Penn, Lawrence
L Penn
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Lawrence Penn (b. 1922, 413929 Royal Australian Air Force) his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron part of the Second Tactical Air Force.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lawrence Penn and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Penn, L
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MaCartney, the interviewee is Lawrence or Lorrie Penn. The interview is taking place at Mr Penn’s home in Mosman, New South Wales, on the 22nd of June 2017. Also present is Mister Penn’s wife June. Ok, Lorrie, I’ve look at some details on your background and I see you were born in Cremorne.
LP: Yes, I do.
JM: And indeed as we were having a little chat to start with before we started the interview, you mentioned you were born in Cremorne,
LP: Cremorne, yes.
JM: In Murdock Street,
LP; In Murdock Street.
JM: In what street, yes, so that was obviously at home
LP: It was a proper hospital in those days but not now of course
JM: A proper hospital back then, was it? Right. No, ok, and that was in December 1922?
LP: That’s right. 27th, two days after Christmas, it was a dreadful time to be born.
JM: Indeed, indeed. And, did the family live round here so that you then went to school around here?
LP: Yes, I did at Cremorne initially then we, after about six years of age we went to Adelaide and then we went up to Cairns and then down to Coffs Harbour so I had, it was after I came back from Coffs Harbour that I had a couple of years at Trinity College and then went to Shore for three or four years,
JM: Right.
LP: And finished my education there.
JM: Finished at Shore, ok. In moving around, quite a bit of the countryside there in just what you’ve said, how did you find different parts of Australia? Do you have any particular memories that stand out for you in your early years of going around the countryside at all?
LP: Oh, I enjoyed it all, perhaps that’s where I gave them my interest in overseas, finding out what was going on overseas.
JM: And did you keep any friends at all down the track from those early years or?
LP: No, probably, as a country down from the other states but from Shore School lifelong.
JM: Right, yes.
LP: Just about, I outlasted them all I was [unclear]
JM: Yes, I guess that would be getting almost to the case now and so you did your intermediate at Shore.
LP: Yes, I did.
JM: And then
LP: And then left Shore and went into a bank as a bank clerk there until the war began.
JM: Right. Did you do leaving certificate as well?
LP: No, no.
JM: Just intermediate.
LP: Just intermediate.
JM: Intermediate, right, ok. And so you left, well before we go into your banking role, were you involved in sports or?
LP: Usual things.
JM: School.
LP: Yeah. Football and cricket. The main, think I did a bit of tennis.
JM: Bit of tennis, yeah. And around where were you living with you going to Shore were you sort of in this area or?
LP: Yeah, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: Still Cremorne, Southern Street. Cremorne.
JM: Cremorne, ok. And so, did you then go to scouts or Air League or anything?
LP: In the school cadets, school cadets and after I left school I didn’t join, I just did tennis club after school.
JM: Tennis club, right, ok. And then into, let me think, so then you would have been probably started work being then in the Depression years.
LP: It’s been about 1938, ’37, ’38 when I left school and went straight into getting a job with the bank.
JM: Ah, yes, that’s true, that’s true, yes, so you were still at school in the Depression years potentially.
LP: I was in Coffs Harbour I think during [unclear].
JM: Coffs Harbour, right. Ok.
LP: My father was a theatre manager.
JM: Oh, ok, so.
LP: That’s why we went from state to state virtually and then when he retired, he finished up writing The picture show man, his experience because his father was also started off producing, not producing films, but showing films all around the rural areas up the North Coast there.
JM: Right, right.
LP: And my dad wrote a résumé of what happened to his youth and so forth and they made a movie out of it, they called The Picture Show Man.
JM: That’s right, that’s right, indeed. Uhm, so that would have been, picture shows would have been very much a discretionary expenditure so with the Depression that would have been quite a tough going for your father.
LP: It was tough going, yes. He was educated mainly in Tamworth there, in Tamworth, lovely town up the North Coast.
JM: Indeed. So, then when you, the family, your father retired, then is that when you came back to Sydney?
LP: Yes, well, Dad entered the army when the war started out, entered the army as a private and finished up as a Major, going through Lieutenant Colonel when he was finally discharged and Dad had a bit of trouble, just trouble and he had, he was medically discharged then.
JM: Ok. And, so then you went into the bank when you left school?
LP: Yes.
JM: And which bank was that?
LP: It was called the English Scottish and Australian Bank then,
JM: Yes.
LP: But it’s the ANZ now.
JM: ANZ, yes, the Esanda, wasn’t it its original name, the Esanda?
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, that’s right. Ok, so, you were, whereabouts were you based in the bank? Were you in the city or just?
LP: The first job was at the Spit Junction.
JM: Spit Junction?
LP: Yes [laughs] Very handy.
JM: Oh, ok, very handy, very handy.
LP: And then I went to the hill office after a year and a bit, to King George Street in the city of Sydney and did a little bit of relieving going to different banks when they were on holiday, the South was on holidays. I wasn’t very high up in the bank at all.
JM: Oh, you were only fairly young at this stage, I mean, Goodness gracious!
LP: [laughs] But, no, it is a dreadful thing to say but it was a fortunate thing for me was that the war started really because it made such a, I wouldn’t have met June.
JP: No. [laughs]
JM: Well, I think there are a lot of
LP: Because I met June in New York in, June was a child evacuee from England and she was only seventeen when I met her and I was nineteen and I just got my wings in Canada and we went to New York on leave
JM: On leave, yes.
LP: And met her there. Well, she met me really, because she picked me out a crowd of
JP: I was having lunch in this Hotel Edison and they asked me, the management, who would I like from that group of airmen over there, who could just come and have lunch with us. And I looked at all the faces and I picked Lorrie.
JM: Oh my Goodness gracious!
JP: He was invited over to have lunch with us
JM: Oh my goodness!
JP: We were both [unclear] management.
LP: We had only about a week to leave in New York. Then I went over across to England on the Queen Elizabeth then and of course won the war [?] over there but of course we didn’t have any correspondence between us for two years. It was just by accident that I met June when they, [unclear] girls were brought back to England after being evacuated.
JM: Right. We will come to a bit more detail about that shortly let’s just, you’ve got a little bit of to, we’ve got to go from your, when you were with the bank and then the war started and so then you enlisted, in September ’41, I see,
LP: That’s right.
JM: So, where, at Bradfield Park, I can see this, so that’s the normal enlisting place for most people there?
LP: Yes.
JM: So, and you did nearly three months at Bradfield Park.
LP: That’s right.
JM: But perhaps before I go a bit further, what made, was there any particular factor that caused you to actually go into the, choose the Air Force to enlist into or?
LP: I was always interested in flying. I remember Dad showed me a free joyride trip to an aircraft that was doing some pleasure flights around Manly and we went up there and that
JM: Sparked your interest.
LP: Sparked my interest.
JM: So that would have been what, do you remember how old you were when that was? Fifteen or so? Maybe earlier?
LP: It would have been earlier than that.
JM: Earlier than that?
LP: It would be about ten, I would say.
JM: Oh my goodness! So that didn’t prompt you to join the Air League at all?
LP: No, because I was still in Shore, at the Shore Grammar School and in the cadets, the cadets were mainly interested in the uniforms and these rifles, they would take their rifles home and all that sort of thing.
JM: And did you do any sort of like officer training in the cadets or?
LP: Yes, but I didn’t advance [unclear], no.
JM: You didn’t advance. Ok. And so, you had, so when came time to join up, then obviously Air Force was going to be the one that you were going to.
LP: Yes, I was going, definitely wanted to join the Air Force.
JM: Right, ok. And so, off to Bradfield Park and then off to
LP: Narromine.
JM: Narromine for your Elementary Flying Training.
LP: That’s right. Went solo there.
JM: Yes.
LP: Twenty courses and there were fifty of us on twenty course and there was only two of us left.
JM: My goodness me, yes.
LP: And this, do you know Tony Vine at all?
JM: No, I don’t know Tony.
LP: Anyhow, he is an ex naval submarine commander actually and he does a lot of commentating on Anzac Day for the ABC over the year and he took an interest in me and he rounded up and got all the stories of the whole twenty, I will show you the book afterwards that he’s written, released that only a couple of months ago.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Down in Canberra.
JM: Right, very interesting, I’ll have a look at it afterwards, yeah. So, Narromine, then back to Bradfield Park for
LP: The Japanese just came in then.
JM: Ah, about 40, yes
LP: We were all ready to hop on the ship and go to San Francisco, the war came in, they didn’t know what to do with us at the time so we went back to Narromine.
JM: Narromine.
LP: Where we refreshed the course. Things got straight and out what was going to happen and we went back and joined the ship and went to San Francisco, as First Class passengers, wonderful [laughs].
JM: Yes. And you were actually in Sydney then when the Japanese came into the harbour?
LP: I think I was still in Narromine.
JM: Still in Narromine, right, ok.
LP: Yes, still in Narromine waiting the war, so.
JM: Right.
LP: With the Japanese.
JM: But when the submarines came into the harbour at [unclear], you weren’t in Sydney.
LP: I wasn’t here, still in Narromine, pretty sure, yes.
JM: Ok, so off you went to, uhm, to San Francisco and.
LP: Yes, and we went by train up to Vancouver, a lovely, quite an eye-opener how lovely it was that trip and then from Vancouver to Edmonton.
JM: Yes.
LP: And we were held there for oh, four to five weeks I think in Edmonton, Canada.
JM: Ah yes, about four weeks looking at the dates here in your logbook, here at the record of service, yes, it was 9th of May until the 6th of June.
LP: That’ll be right, yes, that’ll be right.
JM: So, so what were you doing, any training there in?
LP: No, no, we were just being held there to. We had the medical, the Canadians were very keen to get the medical condition of whatever arriving there so we had dental and all sort of things, x-rays and things like that. Sports.
JM: Yes, a bit of sports to keep you active, I suppose.
LP: Keep us fit, yes. Waiting on a posting to a service training school.
JM: Right.
LP: Which was Dauphin, Manitoba.
JM: Whereabouts?
LP: Dauphin was just north, northwest of Winnipeg.
JM: Right. And how, was that another train trip?
LP: Yes, it was. Over the Rockies and a wonderful trip.
JM: And that would have been quite an experience then to see some of that scenery.
LP: Oh, it was. It was then.
JM: Yeah.
LP: Jasper and up very, many thousand of feet we had to go through the Rockies to and then down on the plains, from then on east of there of course it was flatter than a pancake until you got to the East Coast of Canada pretty well.
JM: Yes, yes, and what training did you do at Dauphin?
LP: At Dauphin? That was a service training school, and that’s where I got my wings, we had to, we were there for [unclear] several months and it was quite hot in Canada in summer.
JM: Yes, that’s right, June through to almost the end of September, so, you’ve got peak summer conditions, so, I guess therefore it was not dissimilar to Australia in that regard.
LP: Yes, in that regard it was.
JM: And how, how did the training go over there, was there?
LP: Oh yes, It went very well,
JM: And there were Canadian instructors presumably [unclear]
LP: Yes, I had Canadian instructors, we were training on the [unclear] aircraft, twin-engine aircraft and very nice aircraft.
JM: Right, and so, you did, you were flying with the instructor and then finally I presume you did your solo flight to get your wings?
LP: Yes. That’s right.
JM: Yeah. And how was that experience? What was your?
LP: Ah, it was wonderful, it went very well, went very well.
JM: Good. And that completely confirmed for you then that you were doing what you wanted to do.
LP: Oh, just, they wanted to because I topped the flying amongst our group. Then they wanted to send me to Prince Edward Island to go onto Sunderland flying boats and I, cause I wanted to get onto Spitfires and I went and saw the CO and set my foot and he more or less agreed that, alright, we’ll take away the Prince Edward Island job and commission went with that too but when I went to the other, when I went to the other service training school, the commission didn’t go with that posting [unclear] but we were posted to the Saint John, to a near field, Pennfield Ridge it was called and that was near Saint John, near the East Coast of Canada onto Venturas.
JM: Right.
LP: Now, these Venturas were twin-engine, like a big Hudson aircraft.
JM: Right.
LP: And, they were a bit heavy handed [laughs], heavy to handle but did alright but in the meantime they were, can I go on to what happened to Venturas?
JM: Yes, you can.
LP: Because they started off on, in England they were sent across, on operations and the first sortie over the English Channel into France that was then [unclear] two boxes of six and one Ventura came back out of the tour. Now, what really happened was normally was daylight bombing and normally bombing between ten and fifteen thousand feet because we were after the V1 sites mainly then [unclear] hours but normally we had a fighter escort Spitfires and Hurricanes which would be up about twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet looking after us but they, the escort didn’t turn up, so the German fighters had a pretty good
JM: Picnic.
LP: Pretty good go at the Venturas.
JM: Venturas
LP: And that’s why after we got to England we did a conversion onto Mitchells, B-25s,
JM: Right. Ok, so.
LP: We’re getting ahead of.
JM: We just try, I find it easier if we can sort of keep it in sequence in that way, bearing in mind sort of when other people are listening, you know, at other times, it makes it a little bit simpler for them. But that’s not say that if you suddenly think of something we can’t accommodate that because it’s better to get it all. But, so, the Venturas, so you were training on these Venturas and at Pennfield Ridge, and then, as well as that, you followed that on with some about a month and a bit at Yarmouth.
LP: That’s right, at Yarmouth, in, we had to cross the Bay of Fundy to go down to, Yarmouth was still in Canada. There is a Yarmouth in England too.
JM: Yes, that’s why
LP: That’s why my parents thought that’s we’re gone to.
JM: Yes, that’s why a bit, wanting to just clarify what that, yeah, so, there’s Yarmouth in Canada and so, what did you do down in Yarmouth, more Ventura training or?
LP: Yes, more Ventura training.
JM: Ventura training. So, did you actually crew up at this point?
LP: Yes, when we got to Pennfield Ridge we crewed up.
JM: You crewed up there. So, how many because I’m totally unfamiliar with the Ventura, how many were on your crew on a Ventura?
LP: I had to choose a pilot and an observer who was not a pilot, a navigator and bomb aimer. And wireless air gunner and straight gunner.
JM: So, in terms of a Ventura, is it like, did they have, was it like a mid-upper gunner or rear gunner or?
LP: Mid-upper gunner.
JM: A mid-upper gunner. Right, ok. And
LP: Oh, sorry, it was only the straight air gunner was on the Mitchell and he was on one of those gun positions [unclear] down below
JM: Oh, like, down below
LP: Down below and underneath
JM: A lower, right
LP: The Ventura didn’t, it only had the top turret.
JM: Top turret, right. So what did wireless operator run that as well as the radio?
LP: As a gunner
JM: As a gunner
LP: As a gunner, and
JM: Wireless
LP: Wireless man, too.
JM: Wireless, right, ok. So, you had one, two, three, four, five crew on your Ventura.
LP: Ehm, one, two, three, four, actually, three, four because we didn’t have the straight air gunner.
JM: So you had a pilot, observer, navigator
LP: Who was all, observer, navigator was all, all one
JM: All the one, ok. So, pilot, navigator, observer, bomb aimer and wireless air gunner.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes. Ok. And so, how did you go about your selection of your crew? Did
LP: They were all brought into the hall and we’d just say, would you like to come with me and you’d pick somebody if they were agreeable and that was it.
JM: And were they all, what nationalities were they?
LP: My observer, who was also the
JM: Navigator
LP: Navigator, was a New Zealander.
JM: Right.
LP: There’s with him and the straight air gunner, no, not the straight air gunner, the wireless air gunner
JM: Wireless.
LP: Was a Canadian
JM: Right. And bomb aimer?
LP: That was the observer’s job also. The observer was a navigator and bomb aimer.
JM: And what was he? Ah, he was New Zealander.
LP: He was a New Zealander and the wireless air gunner was a Canadian.
JM: And, so, that was your crew, you went then as a crew to Yarmouth.
LP: To Yarmouth.
JM: And did your additional training
LP: Yes.
JM: In Yarmouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: So then you got after that, any particular memories that, any particular experiences any of these training flights that stand out, any near misses or any interesting visit, interesting side trips as a result of [laughs]?
LP: Not really. I was lucky, the Venturas had the most powerful engine going at the time in the Air Force at two thousand horse power, a radial engine, and had a habit of catching on fire. Luckily I didn’t have that experience myself but we did a lot of formation flying at Yarmouth too, and we’d go out, ehm, select one doing the [unclear] for about half an hour and then change over so. The [unclear] Grant-Suttie was the captain of the leading aircraft I was formating on him and he had an engine failure and we were on a steep turn at the time and I, because he reduced speed because of the engine failure, I pulled off, I suppose I could so but our, my left wingtip hit his tail plane and my left wingtip came up like that, bent right up
JM: Bent right up
LP: Bent right up and of course when I landed and they asked about the other aircraft, the other aircraft, alright, I said, as far as I know, yes, Captain, I’m [unclear], he’s still ok, and I saw him land then and never got into any trouble, I don’t know whether he got into any trouble enough but
JM: But still the engine failed, I mean.
LP: The engine failed and it was down that they weren’t very good engines.
JM: Gosh, well that was an experience to
LP: Yeah, that was an experience.
JM: And again sort of required your resources to manage your way out of it, so.
LP: When you’re in a [unclear] like that and he wants to bank further because the engine fails
JM: So, probably more than forty-five degrees you’re talking about, judging by the position of your hands there, yes.
LP: Is very, I couldn’t do anything except try and sort of get my speed behind his, and we were very lucky that all this more or less still kept together and my wingtip hit his tail plane and, well, it squeezed up against, you say, because there wasn’t any big collision, we were so close anyhow.
JM: Close anyhow.
LP: So.
JM: Gosh! So, that was that experience and that was probably about the only one that you had.
LP: That’s the only one I had.
JP: Bird strike. The bird strike.
LP: Oh no. That’s way.
JM: That’s further down the track, is it? Ok.
LP: Way down the track. This is in the Air Force, I’m still training in the Air Force [laughs]
JM: We’re still, we’re back in Canada here. But whereabouts to sort of go to Halifax and uhm, I presume that’s probably but some of your experiences that’s at Yarmouth and then. So you moved both to Halifax and [unclear] and that was
LP: That was like a holding.
JM: Holding.
LP: Holding spot there and then we actually went by train down to New York
JM: Yes.
LP: To get on board the Queen Elizabeth. Right next door was the French one that was caught on fire.
JM: Fire.
LP: What was the name?
JP: Oh, that French ship. Yes, I remember that.
LP: About the same size as the Queen Elizabeth. Huge French.
JP: It wasn’t the Normandy?
LP: Normandy. That’s it! Good one! Is the Normandy, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: It spend quite a long time in the New York wharf area.
JM: But when you went down to New York is when you had a week’s leave and when you.
LP: We had the weeks’ leave from Dauphin. That was where I did the [unclear]
JM: Oh, from Dauphin, ok, so whilst you were in Dauphin that had you the week’s leave, right.
LP: That’s right, isn’t it?
JP: Yes.
LP: From Dauphin.
JM: Dauphin, so
LP: [unclear] I got my wings, it wasn’t [unclear], no, because we didn’t have leave and we came before we went on board the Queen Elisabeth. Some memory?
JP: I can’t remember.
LP: You can’t remember, I can’t remember.
JM: No, that’s alright, well that’s
LP: Got in touch with you when I went to New York. No.
JM: No, so was probably around August or something that you had your leave in ’42, went down from Dauphin down to New York so
LP: I don’t think we were allowed so when we were embarking or anything like that.
JM: Right, ok, so that and how did you find your week in New York?
LP: Well, initially.
JM: Yes, that initial.
LP: With June.
JM: Yes, with June.
LP: Oh, we had a lovely time. We saw
JM: So, you met June at the beginning of the leave as opposed to
LP: Yes
JM: So, you had the whole week together basically
JP: I was just having lunch and he was the guest of management and I was guest of management.
JM: Guest of management, yes, no, but it was basically towards the, more as at the start of his leave so you then had a week, more or less a week together. Oh, that was wonderful.
LP: No, not all the time. But I went down to this hotel called [unclear] and the other one, he got his wings too, and we both went to this hotel Edison in New York because we could have two meals for the price of one [laughs]. And, oh, we were looking forward to it, we weren’t flush then.
JM: Oh, that’s right. Exactly, you were payed.
LP: And that’s when June sorted a group of airmen and said, oh, I’ll pick him.
JP: Pick him [laughs].
LP: So it’s all her fault.
JM: It’s all her fault, that’s right. And so, I guess, how long had you been in New York at that stage? June, you had some idea?
JP: Oh, I’d only been in New York probably about a year.
JM: A Year. But still at least you had some knowledge, say you were able to take
LP: You were fifteen, didn’t you?
JP: Fifteen, going, closer to sixteen.
LP: Ah, were you?
JP: Much closer to sixteen. Yes.
LP: June was about the, she was more of us in charge of the other girls going over
JP: That’s right.
LP: And she did three years, they been and she’s been living in New York about a year.
JM: A levels, you did your A levels.
JP: I did the leaving that took everybody four years, I did it in fifteen months.
JM: My Goodness me!
JP: And how I did it was that, where I was as a like a primary school but we had, the older ones, we had a separate cottage and this cottage, these lovely ladies would come and
LP: The Gool [?] Foundation
JP: The Gool [?] Foundation and they’d come and you know they talked me up when I wanted to do my homework for night now where was I? Uhm, what was I about to tell you?
JM: Well, we were just saying that you had, you’d been there about twelve months so that you had some idea about, you know, where to take Lorrie and
JP: Where to take Lorrie and everything and they just sort of got somehow round that we got in touch with each other
LP: When? After.
JP: I don’t know how we did it, whether it’s through my mother.
LP: No, no, no, I happened to be, this is after a two year period after I got to England.
JM: England.
LP: When we first left each other, I think I wrote one letter saying how lovely
JM: [unclear]
LP: I got one letter back, nothing for two years, I happened to be on leave in London and [unclear] officer by then and reading the paper and there was a little part in the paper that said, a lot of these girls were returning as they had been evacuated and gave the address of the headquarters there and I thought, oh, I might go, see if June [unclear] maybe and maybe I might pop in and see and she happened to be there at the headquarters when I popped in.
JM: At that particular time that you went and visited. How a coincidence.
JP: I was getting my papers to get on entertaining the troops had to join ENSO, which was Entertainments National Service Association.
LP: Join the straight, part of a straight play.
JP: Part of a straight play. And, you know I just had this, getting all this information and when Lorrie walked into the building and here you go.
JM: Well, there you go!
JP: Meant to be.
JM: Meant to be, that’s right. And so you became part of the entertainment, troop entertainment.
JP: Yes, I was always in, so, I went to a theatre school as a child through [unclear] and then we went to New York and then I had a very good, I had the best drama teacher in the world at that time called Frances Robinson-Duff and she gave me a free scholarship to attend her school and from there, well, I went back to England, the best way for me to use what I knew in theatre was to join the Entertainment National Service Association, which was a group that entertained troops in straight plays and things like that all over England and Scotland.
LP: You went up to the Orkneys at that time.
JM: Gosh! Yeah, so you, well.
JP: Unfortunately everybody would have been in the newspaper and I would have been in the [unclear] but Noel Coward who was like in charge of us, he was very conscious of keeping our privacy, he didn’t want that for us so he stopped that otherwise I would have had, you know, newspapers galore on what I was doing. It’s a shame.
LP: If June had stayed on , Noel Coward would have made sure that she had a good part.
JM: Gosh!
JP: No, he was like a father to me. Was fabulous.
JM: Amazing, yeah. Ok, we’ll come back to that because that obviously fits in with the story a bit further down the track, uhm, at the moment we just got you into England [laughs]
LP: Queen Elisabeth [unclear], because no escort at all
JM: You had no escort for [unclear], no.
LP: And one night, the Queen did a very quick, one hundred and eighty, three hundred and sixty degree turn because they knew there was a submarine, they were told there was a submarine after them, so I’m glad they had plenty of speed.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So you just did a massive turn around, you didn’t go by, there was one, I must check that, yes, there was one trip that actually went via Greenland. But because again a submarine concerns so did you either on this, on the Elisabeth did you meet, some of the chaps did watchers, did you do any, bridge watches or?
LP: Not on the Queen Elisabeth. But going from Australia to San Francisco, they loaded up guns and [unclear] as well because the war, looked like the Japanese could have come down from there on our way.
JM: But you didn’t do any bridge watch, some of the chaps did bridge watchers from the bridge. But no, so you just did some gunnery work, gunnery preparations on that over to San Fran, right, ok. So you ended up, from Halifax you ended Myles Standish, Bournemouth.
LP: Myles Standish, wasn’t that?
JM: That’s the departure before you went to
LP: Boston, wasn’t it?
JM: That be Boston, yeah, when you got onto the Elisabeth.
LP: Boston, we were held there for a few days and then went to New York onto the Queen Elisabeth.
JM: Yes, just, and so then into Bournemouth.
LP: Yes, held there for quite a while.
JM: About nearly two months basically in Bournemouth, so what sort of things were you doing in Bournemouth?
LP: Mainly parade and get a sport but we were bombed here.
JM: Really?
LP: We were bombed from the low level Focke Wulf, they got under the radar, they just fly over the water and it was a Sunday. If it hadn’t been a Sunday, half of us wouldn’t have been here because the parade ground was bombed. [unclear] my friend there, he got, [unclear] damaged, one thing or another, quite a few killed, civilians were killed at Bournemouth. Sunday the hotel was bombed, they couldn’t, they didn’t rescue anybody out there for a couple of days or two but they were having a great old time down the cellars [laughs].
JM: Down the cellars, well, at least they were safe, I suppose. And so, did your crew that you had been with, your New Zealander, your Canadian, they were all, they came across with you together on the plane, on the boat to Europe? And you’re at Bournemouth together?
LP: Yes, yes, no, I may have, my memory, I’m not too sure now whether it was just my observer and myself together and the wireless air gunner and the straight air gunner, we might have got together after the conversion onto Mitchells, I can’t quite remember that now.
JM: That’s alright, that’s ok. And.
LP: So, after we went after to Bicester.
JM: Towards had, no had two western first?
LP: Sorry?
JM: Tour western? Two western?
LP: Yeah, that’s right.
JM: Two western?
LP: Close to Bicester.
JM: Yeah well, in your entry you had two western then Bicester.
LP: Conversion onto the Mitchells [unclear].
JM: Mitchells.
LP: Two Western.
JM: And how did you find the difference between the Mitchell and the Ventura?
LP: Ah, beautiful aircraft, compared to the Ventura there’s no, hard to compare, the Mitchell was a beautiful aircraft.
JM: It was.
LP: I got a good one too, no, the aircraft varied but mine
JM: There were still two engine, weren’t they?
LP: Still two engines, yes.
JM: Yes. And what, you say they were beautiful aircraft, in what way?
LP: Well, we did a lot of formation flying again there and they were very responsive, very steady, fully aerobatic, not that we did any aerobatics with a bomber but they were capable of doing it. And Liberator, do you know the Liberator at all?
JM: No, not really, no.
LP: That’s a four engine.
JM: Four engine. Had another American one.
LP: The same that made the Liberator
JM: That made the Liberator
LP: Made the Mitchell
JM: Mitchell.
LP: And they are very similar, very similar. Matter of fact, those that went on to Liberators first went on to Mitchells to get the feel. Must show you, there probably a bit out of order but.
JM: Well how about we come back to that later on.
LP: Yeah, we’ll getting a bit thirsty
JM: Oh, ok, we will have a little bit of a.
LP: I mean, you, you must.
JM: No, no, I’m fine but we will just pause while you. We shall just continue on now with Lorrie has just shown me the book that Tony Vine has written on the history of the group of
LP: Group 20
JM: 20 course at Narromine.
LP: There were 50 of us.
JM: 50, so I’ll come, so I’ve seen the chapter on Lorrie which I will come back to afterwards. So, you were at
LP: [unclear]
JM: At Bournemouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: Sorry, then you went to Two Western and you were onto your Mitchell training here now.
LP: Yes, conversion onto.
JM: Yes, so, do you remember your crew there?
LP: Same.
JM: Same. Did you pick up an extra chap now?
LP: That’s where I think where I got the straight gunner, which was Starkey, he was another Canadian.
JM: Another Canadian.
LP: So I finished up with a New Zealander and two Canadians.
JM: Yeah, right, ok, and so from there, any particular experiences that come to mind when you were doing your conversion to your Mitchells?
LP: No, I think they, just the instructors started climbing up to twenty thousand feet and he wanted to demonstrate without our oxygen masks on and most of the chaps sort of passed out but I was very whizzy but I didn’t actually pass out. But, that’s one of, just off the top of my head, [laughs] not worth mentioning really.
JM: Right. Still showed you what would happen if you
LP: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask.
JM: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask, that’s right. So from there, uhm, off to Fulsome
LP: Swanton Morley?
JM: No, Folsom, briefly to start only three days, so, it was just a transit by the looks of the dates and from there Swanton Morley, so, Swanton Morley was you first posting, that was your when you were posted to 226 Squadron.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yeah, so this was.
LP: Which is an RAF Squadron.
JM: An RAF Squadron, yes, that’s right. And so from, so you arrived at 226 in August ’43.
LP: That’d be right.
JM: August ’43, August ’43, ok and that’s when you started your operational activities?
LP: Yes, from Swanton Morley.
JM: Yes, ok and so, uhm, so mostly your ops were over Northern France, sort of?
LP: Yes, northern France, Holland and, mainly on the V1 sites, we didn’t know, they didn’t tell us what we were actually bombing, cause a big secret at the time. It just what they called a V1 bombing and nothing else, other things too but because these launching sites were right on the coast, crossing over, the flak was very heavy, just hop in and hop out as quickly as you could, drop your bombs.
JM: And so here you had, how many, need to go back to your, we go to the
LP: Operations?
JM: Operations, here, what sort of missions, ops?
LP: Well, as I was saying, they were mainly V1 we were
JM: V1.
LP: We were doing daylight bombings.
JM: Daylight bombings, yes, good, ok, so, any, how many times, do you have?
LP: Thirty ops was a tour.
JM: A tour, yes, that’s alright.
LP: A tour and at the end of the thirty ops I was asked to, would I do another ten ops, which I volunteered to do.
JM: Yes. So, that’s your assessments there, September, yes, so your first ops, your first ops started on the 19th of September basically by the looks of that and through there, lots of flights in between time affiliation flying and then November you really started doing, you really started into the ops, that’s 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, yep, 40th operation cooling [?]. So, what’s, any particular ops stand out in terms of, uhm, where, you know, little bit of flak here, we see in January, cloud over target did not bomb, so, French coast, cloud, what sort of, what sort of memories do you have of those ops there?
LP: There, only the amount of flak that was put up to just like the black cloud [unclear]
JM: Black cloud.
LP: And I got hit quite, my observer got shrapnel in his knee from the flak and my straight air gunner, he was up in the top turret and he, quite a big thing hit him behind but luckily it was the flat end that hit him, if it would have been the sharp end the side of, he probably would have been
JM: He probably would have been into trouble.
LP: Yes. Luckily the captain’s seat had armoured plating about that thick [unclear] at the back
JM: Right, so you were reasonably protected from.
LP: Yes, and we always wore a normal helmet, not helmet, see, metal hat, you know, we called it, we didn’t wear a cap so
JM: No, no.
LP: But, the ordinary ground soldiers a metal thing because of the flak, it might help us if a bit of metal came in.
JM: That’s right, and the injuries of those two chaps sustained, were they?
LP: They were in hospital
JM: They were in hospital, I say, it didn’t cause them to miss any ops or one or two ops that you had a substitute crew for or?
LP: No. [unclear]
JM: No, they didn’t miss
LP: We kept the same crew all the way through.
JM: All the way through, right, ok. And, did you have escorts? You said there was lots of flak, so did you still have escorts to provide you a bit of protection or?
LP: Well, as I said, the escorts were [unclear] fighters up to twenty thousand feet, we were bombing between ten thousand and fifteen thousand feet. Daylight bombing and so the escorts could see us from, but that be about ten or fifteen thousand feet
JM: Between you
LP: Between us and if any German fighters showed up they, with the height advantage,
JM: They would be able to come in down over the top of them and try to pick them off
LP: Yes. Keep them. They were herding us along quite nicely. But unlucky with that first Venturas when they didn’t show up and they eleven out of twelve were shot down.
JM: That’s right. So, how bigger Squadron was 226?
LP: It was quite a big squadron and there were about three or four at different stations, airfields, and for instance this called Halliday, was when I met June at the hotel, he was at another airfield, I can’t remember the name of it now, about three or four, there was even a Polish squadron, they made part of our wing, what they called our wing, and they were dreadful in that, they didn’t believe in, they flew straight in and low [laughs] all the time, because, you know, we were told, and it’s pretty true, that if you kept on a straight level flight for ten seconds or a little bit more than ten seconds, without changing your course or your height, you‘re bound to be knocked down. So we did a lot of course changing and height changing.
JM: That’s right. And whilst you were at the base there, uhm, what, at Swanton Morley, you would have some leave, what sort of things did you do whilst you were on leave at Swanton Morley?
LP: We were lucky that there was an organisation that, I’m trying to think of the organisation there that offered to take you into different homes in different parts of England and myself and a good friend of mine, Jack Barrel [?], who is another pilot, we both decided on going up to the Lake District and we loved it, we met a magnificent family up there, he was a soldier from World War I and he at the Battle of the Somme he had a leg shot off and his wife was a lovely Hewardson missy, Hewardson.
JP: They were lovely people.
LP: And that’s where we went up for our honeymoon, up to Kendal, Lake District, and we went and visited them, we just stayed at that hotel at Kendal in Lake District.
JM: Right. Gosh! And did you get back to them a couple of times?
LP: Yes, yes.
JM: So whilst you were at Swanton Morley, so having made the contact with this family, the Hewardsons, did you say it was?
LP: Hewardsons.
JM: Hewardsons, yes. And they, so you then went back.
LP: Very much [unclear] like part of the family up there. Made us very welcome, looked after us magnificently.
JM: Yes, yes, it’s interesting how these bonds did form and how much someone else has commented to me that you know how what an unknown contribution those families really made because of the support and the care that they gave, the service chaps was.
JP: It was amazing.
LP: Of course, something like Miss Macdonald and something about [unclear] and somewhere on the [unclear], was quite nice people, didn’t know them at all but that’s what the organisation was called.
JM: Right, so then you continued to
LP: We left Swanton Morley and went down to Camberley in tents. We were just about to go, D-Day was just about to come up.
JM: Yes, that’s what I’m going to say. What about D-Day, yes?
LP: Well, actually I just finished my tour, they called it, there’s a tour and a half but they called two tours tour because it went on to the extra ten ones, so I was on leave on D-Day.
JM: Right.
LP: In London I think.
JM: Right.
LP: But I then went on to the second [unclear] communication Squadron from there.
JM: Right. Right. So, so you finished your tour at, in beginning of June, before June basically, wasn’t it? It’s the tour the eleventh, that’s May 23, was basically the last op you did there? That when you and then you had your, you’ve been given your assessment on the 11th of June, which of course is after D-Day, so that’s why you were on leave for, well, on D-Day, so, yeah. So, you went, where did you have your leave? Were you down in London or were you up, up north?
LP: London, London on D-Day.
JM: Right, right. And were you in London at that point, June, or?
JP: I think so.
LP: Must have been.
JP: I must have been, yeah. Yes, I must have been, yes. We must have been together.
LP: I don’t know whether you had come back from America at that stage, do you remember what month it was that you came back? It wasn’t, I think it was after June that we met up again.
JP: We had a patch of two years so we didn’t see each other.
LP: Yes.
JM: Right, right, ok. So, could have been as part of that time there. Yes.
LP: Because I know what I mean, we got married on January the 4th, I remember that.
JP: 1945.
JM: Right.
LP: 1945.
JM: January 4th 1945 we were married.
LP: And we weren’t, it took a while before I [unclear] enough courage to ask her to marry me [laughs].
JP: Yes. And we were [unclear] together like three months before that. And before that I was in, I must have been in America.
JM: Yes, yes, yes.
LP: And I was at, based at Northolt.
JM: Yes. Because you, in June you switched to Ansons so did you do a conversion course to the Ansons or was it similar to, from the?
LP: No, hardly necessary. Just another [unclear], the two on the Ansons, the Anson was twin engine, but is only used as a communication aircraft really.
JM: Right, ok, so this was the start of your other Squadron posting, was it?
LP: Yes.
JM: And what was that Squadron called?
LP: 2nd TAF communications squadron.
JM: Right, and so that was Northolt.
LP: They had [unclear]
JM: Yeah, ok. So, that was. So actually you were at 226 moved to Hartford Bridge from Swanton Morley.
LP: Yes, that’s right, yes, that’s right.
JM: So, you’re still flying there, you’re still flying ops at that stage.
LP: Yeah.
JM: It’s just that you change bases there.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yeah, ok. So, with the TAF on communication, what was that involving?
LP: Mainly, flying quite higher people from on aerodrome to the other. Ten days after D-Day I was flying across the Channel with generals and
JM: You were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters.
LP: Yeah, but [unclear] you’re getting too far ahead, June.
JP: Am I? Ah, but that’s what you were doing.
LP: But we were doing a lot of work based in Northolt, flying to different airfields in England, mainly carrying VIPs from one place to the other, carrying some mail from one place to the other, but I think I ran about the tenth, ten days after D-Day which would be, what, 16th? I was flying across the Channel with VIPs.
JM: Right.
LP: And then shortly after the whole communication squadron went across [unclear] and we were based in the beachhead, close to the beachhead, beachhead.
JM: Right. So, that was, yeah, so you were in France and then Belgium. So, from, in August, you had one month in France.
LP: Yeah.
JM: And then three months in Belgium.
LP: That’s right. Yeah. And during that three months, a part of, got three or four weeks, myself and two other pilots were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters and do take his majors up to frontline and get information back and bring that back too.
JM: Right, so. That, August, yes, so, looking at your logbook again, yes it doesn’t quite give us the details it, just tells that you went like in August you went to a whole pile of interesting, Elson [?], Chartres and in another flight you had Reims, Saint Mo [?] and return, so you were obviously visiting forward posts in there to pick up information and then drop staff and that sort of thing there, so, yes, how was that as an experience compared to your fighting operation shall we call?
LP: It is virtually called a rest period, rest period really but we were open to enemy attack at any time.
JM: Did you have any escorts at that time? How many of you were, you just a single plane?
LP: A single plane.
JM: A single plane, so didn’t have any escort or anything like that. You and your rescue were on your own resources in terms of keeping watch for anything.
LP: Yes, well, I didn’t have a crew then.
JM: Oh, ok, you were only.
LP: When I left the squadron, finished the operations, that was the end of the crew.
JM: Right, ok.
LP: So, it was just you.
LP: And other pilots, they were all.
JM: Just a mix of second pilots, just like a two, two men crew running.
LP: Well, wasn’t even a two men crew. We were flying lighter aircraft and it was the one crew flying the passengers virtually.
JM: Oh, ok, so you didn’t actually even have like a second pilot or anything, was just you as the pilot and the passengers that you were ferrying.
LP: Even the Anson which was twin engine thing, you just flew that by yourself. I even accepted that the time I had Prince Bernard [?] in Canada he, we were in Brussels at the time, and he wanted to go to Eindhoven and I was chosen to fly him there in the Anson and he and his couple of aids there and general, a couple of generals there and they sat down in the back and he wanted to sit up alongside of me and Prince Bernard [?] and took off and the old Anson in those days, you had to wind the undercarriage up and it took off and he said, oh, I’ll do that and he wound the undercarriage up for me [laughs]. Very nice chap.
JM: And did you ever meet Montgomery?
LP: I can’t say that I actually met him. No, it’s a wonder I didn’t because as I say there were three of us with these light aircraft attached to his headquarters and one Sunday morning, it must have been a Sunday morning and the English Townsend, Johnny Townsend, were having a bit of a rivalry amongst us and we went up, and we had a bit of a dogfight, you know, [unclear] treetop level and we were doing [unclear] and having a real good older, I won by the way because I and he admitted that I was coming inside him on the turns [unclear], we landed and very shortly after there was a VIP attached to Montgomery that came up and said: ‘What have [unclear] I had a lot of trouble, you’re in a lot of trouble because there was, Montgomery was very religious type of chap and he was carrying out the church parade and of course we were flying [laughs].
JM: The church creating a racket.
LP: And disturbed his church service and we weren’t very popular then [laughs].
JM: Oh dear, oh dear.
LP: So, that’s one incident that happened.
JM: And so, it was quite a different experience than for you to be doing.
LP: We [unclear] as a rest period, weren’t nearly in so much danger really, except we often had to keep our eyes open all the time because we were as far as the aircraft went, we were very much on top of the Germans, from D-Day on the German Air Force didn’t trouble us very much.
JM: So, what, you had quite a number of flights in that capacity. So you went through until December ’44 was the end of Belgium and then from there you were down to Brighton and obviously you had some leave at that point because if you then went and got married in January, beginning of January ’45, your time in Brighton was December ’44 to February ’45 so you had some leave and you got married. Where were you married, in London?
LP: Yes. West Hampstead, wasn’t it?
JP: West Hampstead.
JM: Right. Right. Very good.
LP: And then we had the honeymoon up in Kendal, in the Lake District [laughs].
JM: Back with the Hewardsons again.
JP: Yes.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes, so that [unclear] marvellous and so, then you came back on the Rangitiki.
LP: Rangitiki, New Zealand ship.
JM: And did you come, you wouldn’t have come as well?
JP: [unclear] travelled.
JM: Travelled together.
JP: It was terrible because English [unclear] was good. But not the Australians. It was terrible.
JM: No.
LP; A well, I can tell you something about that. The Australians they couldn’t take their wireless back with them, but the New Zealanders did and when we got on board, and the New Zealanders were there [unclear] I was very hurt about that. Yes, would have made a big difference.
JP: [unclear] went first, it was several months before I was pregnant which he didn’t know about.
LP: I didn’t know about [unclear].
JP: Until I saw him again and it was terrible for me cause I had to wait in England for months.
LP: And June was very lucky to be allowed to travel being pregnant.
JM: Yes, well, there was a cut-off time before they.
JP: I got
LP: June had the influence of her grandfather.
JP: My grandfather he was head of the [unclear] shipping company.
JM: Oh, ok.
JP: And only through him did a get a birth I mean cause they’d never allow somebody expecting a baby on the ship anyway during the war.
JP: There were a couple of others that I know of that came through as pregnant, when they were pregnant but yes.
LP: But June was, Richard was born in October.
JP: Several months when I came.
LP: By the time we landed in Sydney, you were what? Seven months pregnant?
JP: Yes, seven months pregnant.
JM: Yes, seven months. And so then you were finally discharged, so you came through on the Rangitiki and then you were discharged
LP: October.
JM: October ’45. Yes. Just saying a bit of note here that is going to sort of jump out of sequence here which but when you were in 226, so you finished up in June, June ’44 we said, wasn’t it? That was your last op, yes, that was last op ’44, so were you, which plane were you on one plane only when you were in 226 or did you fly two or three different planes?
LP: No, only Mitchells, I only flew the Mitchells there and I had my own aircraft.
JM: You had your own aircraft, yes. No, it’s just that I noticed when I was looking up 226 to try and find out a little bit about 226 because I’d never come across 226 previously and one of the notes there said that there was a P for Peter, was a distinguished plane in 226 because it was the only Mitchell that completed one hundred ops. And I didn’t know whether you had ever flown on P for Peter or whether you would, if you’d happen to remember any one who might have flown on P for Peter.
LP: I can’t quite remember either. Does it tell you the aircraft?
JM: It probably does if I actually go back and have a look.
LP: When I was on leave towards the end in my tour, while you are on leave somebody else couldn’t fly your aircraft.
JM: Yes.
LP: And somebody did and the undercarriage didn’t come down when it went in to land, so he landed without a nose wheel, because Mitchells had nose wheels, he did a, he got his crew to go down the back and he finished his landing alone and he kept the nose off the ground all the time, got the ground crew to come out to pull the nose wheel struck down and they did but they didn’t [unclear] and when they were towing it away it came down
JM: Collapsed.
LP: It crashed. Oh, I was so annoyed. I did get another aircraft, a newer aircraft with newer engines, but it wasn’t nearly as nice to fly as the, H for Harry, I’ll bet you’ll find those.
JM: Well actually no, you, all you got is numbers so, I haven’t got any letters unfortunately.
LP: I’m sure there’s H for Harry anyhow.
JM: H for Harry, was it, there you go, no, there’s no letters, there’s just numbers, so. But anyway that’s alright.
LP: H, I’m sure there’s H, wasn’t Peter.
JM: Wasn’t Peter, right. So, back in, you were discharged as we said in December.
LP: October.
JM: October ’45, sorry, and because you arrived, which is a long time after you arrived back, cause you arrived back in March ’45 so.
LP: Yes, we refreshed the course [unclear]
JM: Oh, did you?
LP: Yes, on Oxford and then we went down to East Sale to do a pre endorsement on Beauforts.
JM: Right, because I suppose at that stage they were concerned about, you might have been going off to Asia, were you? For
JP: Yes.
LP: Yes, but before that I was going to go from the Beauforts on to Mosquitos at Williamtown.
JM: Right.
LP: And then the war ended.
JM: Ended.
LP: I wanted to get on to Mosquitos to [laughs]
JP: Yes. That was his love.
JM: Right.
LP: Yes, well I, yes, initially it was Spitfires but at the end, towards the end Mosquitos were lovely aircraft.
JM: Right, right. So did you actually fly?
LP: Mosquitos?
JM: No.
LP: I didn’t even get the posting to Williamtown.
JM: No, no.
LP: East Sale, you know where East Sale is?
JM: Yes, down Victoria.
LP: Victoria. That’s where the beau fighters were.
JM: Beau fighters were.
LP: No, not beau fighters, Beauforts, Beauforts.
JM: Beauforts, Beauforts. Right.
LP: And I did finish the course there and as I say the war ended then. [phone ringing] Thanks June.
JM: So, yes, so, well, that’s interesting that you had all that extra training [unclear]
LP: Excuse me, I gotta, he’s gonna call me back.
JM: Go back, so, then having done all these extra bits of training it never came to anything as such and the war ended so you were finally discharged in October ’45.
LP: Yes.
JM: And by which time June had arrived I assume, yes, yes.
LP: Yes, produced our son.
JM: Yes, your son.
JP: I had him at October 9th 1945.
JM: Right, right, so that was just before you were discharged, ok, uhm, and you were in Sydney here at that point.
JP: Yes.
LP: No, no, you were up at Burrell.
JP: Up at Burrell? Oh, sorry, I, when you said Sydney I meant Australia. Yes, I was up at Burrell.
LP: No, my parents were retired in a place up at Burrell, near [unclear], Gloucester Way.
JM: Ok, right, so there.
JP: So basically I was when I had the baby.
JM: Right, right, ok, so, that would have been a bit of a shock to the system and the whole country town there.
LP: It was, no telephone,
JP: I got on the phone and said to people in England and New York, I said, well look I’m up here, there’s no phone, no electricity, no toilet inside [unclear] [laughs].
JM: Dunny is down the back.
LP: Was a bit of a shock.
JP: [unclear]
LP: But I had told her what to expect.
JP: Oh yes, I wasn’t, you know, [unclear], I did it with fun.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: Was lovely, June settled in there beautifully.
JP: Oh yes, no, they were lovely to me. When I first arrived, of course being a little English girl, I was all white,
JM: White, that’s right.
JP: And just, they went, ah, [laughs], who’s this? Where does she come from? [laughs]
LP: And June could make up beautifully and she looked lovely anyhow but all the local girls [unclear]
JP: Who’s this? [laughs] Where did she come from?
JM: That’s right, yes.
JP: What planet? [laughs]
JM: Yes, exactly. And so, when did you start your chartered business? You showed
LP: The air taxi.
JM: Air taxi out of Bankstown.
LP: Yes.
JM: Was that the first thing you did after the war?
LP: The first job that I went into, organized setting up the air taxi. I met a chap, a country chap that he and his wife looking for something of interest, they were pretty well off and we got on very well together and we went down to Canberra and saw Dragford [?], who is a politician and he managed to get two light aircraft from the RAAF at Richmond. So we got hold of [unclear], picked one up, all [unclear] up nicely and start to operate from then.
JM: So did you, whereabouts in Sydney were you living at this point? Were you out near Bankstown or were you travelling out there?
LP: Yes, yes, there was another airport chap that I got to know, at Dauphin quite well, and his parents were living at Bankstown at the time
JM: Right.
LP: And they put us up there until their daughter was born and then
JM: Yeah, right.
JP: [unclear] was born.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Yes, very kind of them.
JM: Yes, yes. So, and you, I think you said three or four years did you have your charter business for?
LP: Ah, about a year and a half.
JM: Year and a half was it? Right.
LP: It was all, because before we went broke.
JM: Right.
JP: Did the guard man threaten to put out some cost, which would put us out of business?
LP: Yes, I said we’re gonna charge [unclear] in air mile
JP: And then they were gonna put it up. And that would have put us out of business. So we had to give it away.
LP: I interviewed [unclear] and Mr Butler, whose Butler Airlines at that stage, he thought we could combine quite well but as [unclear] couldn’t carry on. I even took a couple just to keep this going in, even took a couple of jobs with [unclear] I think it was and the other place, in George Street down the hill.
JM: Down the hill?
LP: Down the hill from George Street near central.
JM: Oh, Mark Foyes?
LP: No, in George Street.
JM: Oh, George Street.
LP: George Street, was a well known
JM: Hordens?
JP: Hordens? Anthony Hordens?
JM: Anthony Hordens?
LP: Anthony Hordens? Yes, I was in, I didn’t smoke, so I got a job in the smoking factory.
JM: Oh, in the tobacco section.
LP: Selling cigarettes and so. Because they always had their battered up tins of cigarettes, fifty, used to be the old fifty tins in those days. And any ones that got battered, they virtually sold them and at this stage I was keen to get into Qantas so I used to do, every week go down to the recruitment place in Qantas and with my tins, battered tins of cigarettes and the recruitment officer, he was a smoker and he bought these battered tins from me every week which is quite [unclear]
JM: Had a little bit of a discount.
LP: Yes, a big discount. So, I think that helped me get into Qantas.
JM: Nothing like a little bit of encouragement.
LP: Exactly, exactly.
JM: For favourable, to view your credentials favourably.
LP: Yes.
JM: Well I mean, you did have the right credentials, let’s face it, so, I mean, that, yes.
LP: There were so many ex Air Force men who wanted to get in
JM: Yes, but they had the pick of the whole field, really.
LP: They did, they did.
JM: So, yes, yes. So, you joined up into Qantas in?
LP: Yes, 28th of March I think it was, 1948.
JM: Right, ok. So, then you started, you were doing domestic or international?
LP: No, international. At the same I was applying to TAA at the same time and they both came and said, come and see us. But the idea of just flying up Sydney, Melbourne, Sydney, Melbourne didn’t really appeal to me.
JM: Taxi run.
LP: And Qantas sounded a lot nicer to me. Don’t say good for June I suppose. Because overseas
JM: Because overseas, periods of absence, yes.
LP: We got two, sometimes three up to Japan because the Korean War had started then. And we took on the Skymaster DC4 we used to fly up to there and the troops landed there and their air force up there, [unclear], and you’d be up to three weeks away, probably because you had to wait for [unclear] ex-service people.
JM: Right. And so how long were you with Qantas for?
LP: Thirty years.
JM: Thirty years. Gosh!
LP: Yes. Thirty years with Qantas.
JM: So, you would have seen quite a number of changes in that time. Obviously, with different planes and
LP: Start off on the DC3 and then went on to the Skymaster DC4, the Superconny, Super Constellation, wasn’t very long and then went on to the 707, Boeing 707 and then the last five years I was on the Jumbo 747.
JM: 747, yes. And have you flown on the A380s at all?
LP: Yes. I have, as passenger.
JM: As passenger. Yes, yes, well that would have been a change again. From the 747.
LP: Like going to [unclear] on the [unclear]. Amazing.
JM: That’s right. And so, once you retired from Qantas in ’78, anything, did you do anything in particular after?
LP: Oh yes, I bought a farm. [laughs]
JM: Bought a farm, right.
LP: Yes, that’s why we just sold, that’s why everything in the dining room down there is chock-a-block. My son also owns another property out in the country and he’s had a big shed that with nothing in there and that’s chock-a-block.
JP: That’s chock-a-block. We’ve got stuff out there that [unclear] what we’re gonna do.
LP: And my son also has a place at [unclear] that’s painting off
JP: That’s his [unclear]
JM: Oh, it’s beautiful.
LP: Two people there during the night.
JM: Oh my goodness!
LP: Great grandchildren.
JP: The artist just did that for us.
JM: Lovely!
JP: That’s the back of the house.
LP: We’ve got the others to go down there and paint it.
JM: Paint it, gosh!
LP: Oh, he’s got a beautiful place!
JP: Oh, it’s beautiful.
JM: And whereabouts is your farm?
LP: At Burrell, near [unclear].
JM: Oh, back in, family, back in where your parents were, so, right.
LP: What happened was in about 1977 [unclear], no ’74, was that Dad came, he said, why don’t you buy the land around us, it was off the sale but 160 acers all together and buy that and when we go, it looks like they were going to go fairly soon, we will leave you the little house and leave you, make a nice little property for you when we go. So that’s what we did. I’m just about to buy a lovely home at Lake Macquarie.
JM: Oh, ok.
LP: Wangi Wangi.
JM: Wangi Wangi, yes, yes.
LP: It’s a waterfront [unclear] a little pathway.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: People like to use the pathway on the other side of this bay and Dad came up with this offer and I can see we could help them at the same time and we changed over.
JM: Lovely. Oh, that’s a beautiful area up there I mean.
LP: It is.
JP: Magnificent.
LP: My mother came from this little township called Burrell, [unclear] Newcastle.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So, you had a very varied and interesting life.
LP: Very much so.
JM: And during, from your wartime experiences would you say there’s any one sequence of events that stays with you perhaps more than others or? One event or?
LP: Can’t say, can’t say. No, can’t say anything. I, we, the CO just before at the end of the tour recommended me for a DFC and then when he left the new CO came in, he called me and he said: ‘Oh, look, here’s this recommendation for a DFC, he said, well, I don’t know anything about you, but can you tell me what you did so we can write up a citation with, I said, I couldn’t think of anything, really [laughs]. And he said: ‘You write what you think might be the best thing in [unclear] the DFC, I said, oh, I thought is not a war to go on yet and I said, just leave it. And he wrote in and I got mentioned a special [unclear] left at then. But an AFC, an Air Force Cross I could have written down something and then because, you know, in formation with head boxers and six, I don’t know if you had, one leading aircraft had one formation on this side and then another one over there and then another one down here with two chaps, you’d have six aircraft all in one box of six, you’d re following me there?
JM: Yes, I am.
LP: And if you went up through cloud then, the idea was everybody to alter course 30 degrees for [unclear] and then climb up through the cloud and break through the clouds up and open it all the aircraft all over the place there and form one again [?]. Well, we had one chap, a fairly high air force official came to our squadron, he said, you know, the fighters, they four made up the fighters coming a lot closer and they form up and they go through the cloud in formation so the CO heard about that and he got a flight Lieutenant and said, give it a try and I’d hear about this and so the next time this went up through the cloud and I stuck in and kept formation all the way up through there and the other chap, that, this flight Lieutenant, he couldn’t do at the end the breakaway so I came up, oh, I was the only one that kept in formation. Well, [unclear] I could have written up something about that, an AFC. That’s the only other experience I can pass on to you.
JM: And what about down the years, did you manage to stay in touch with your New Zealand and Canadian crew chaps or?
LP: Not the Canadians, the, we went to a holiday, a bit of a holiday over in New Zealand and I met up with my observer then. Oh, by the way that business of flying through the clouds, after they found out that it could be done, after that all the operations, that they went up through cloud, we all formed up and went through in formation.
JM: You stayed in formation.
LP: After [unclear]
JM: So you brought about a change of procedure so to speak.
LP: Yes.
JM: And so the chap, Dennis, Dennis
LP: Lez Witham.
JM: Lez Witham.
LP: Lez Witham was my observer.
JM: Right.
LP: He was at Duneaton [?].
JM: And so you managed to keep in contact with him a little bit.
LP: A little bit.
JM: Post war.
LP: He became a, bonds, he was a
JM: Stock broker.
LP: Stock broker, yes, he became a stock broker.
JM: Right. Interesting.
LP: [unclear] when you get old, you can’t remember names [unclear].
JM: We’re talking about so long ago and so many thing have happened in the years [unclear] that’s quite, But the fact is that, you know, those experiences, the nitty gritties of the experiences stay with you and while some of the finer details may not necessarily be there, the whole overall experience is very much still part and parcel of you.
LP: But names of people [unclear] I mean you can’t and June is even worse than I am, terribly [unclear]. I told you about five times I don’t take milk in tea and I like milk in my coffee and but she asks me every time [unclear]
JM: Ah well, she is always planning for a change of taste, that’s what it is. [unclear] And did you keep in touch with any of, like training type people that you were trained with or did you make up, come because of being in Qantas you would have met up with a lot of service personnel, did?
LP: Not Air Force,
JM: Not Air Force.
LP: But of course, except my wireless air gunner, he married and we had a few [unclear] from her and sometime years ago now and she used to correspond a bit [unclear] and as I say, the observer, New Zealand observer we but the straight air gunner, no, he didn’t, didn’t hear anything from him. He was a character, he was only a short stocky Canadian, he was a real toughy [unclear], he was a good air gunner, [unclear] I liked the chap, I liked him.
JM: Well, that’s what you want, you want someone who is good at, everyone had to be good at their own jobs. That was part and parcel of the survival of the crew, I think, wasn’t it?
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, so, and that you may not necessarily be best of buddies but you were able to work together and have that cohesion that was required to be a good team, to survive.
LP: I never had any trouble with my crew at all so very good, very good.
JM: I know it’s hard work so I do appreciate you were sharing some memory, many memories with me.
LP: It’s hard work trying to remember [unclear] no, I enjoyed it because it brings to day sort of [unclear] quite a few [unclear].
JP: Lovely memories.
LP: I wish I had this Mitchell, we had the whole squadron in front of a Mitchell and where that photo is.
JM: It’s in one of your boxes. You’ll find it one day, it will turn.
LP: Tony Vine has got, he took a lot of photos
JM: Photos
JP: We’ve got a lot of boxes in there.
LP: Yes, but he took a lot of photos to
JM: To put into the book.
LP: Yes, to put into the book.
JM: Well, if nothing else, we might wrap up then if there is anything else, unless there’s anything else that you can think of, that you want to mention.
LP: Can you think of anything else, June?
JP: No, no.
JM: So, we’ll wrap it up as I say and I.
LP: June wants to bring up the bird strike business with the Qantas of course but.
JP: Oh, not really. We’ll leave it.
LP: Ok. You brought it up, you brought it up.
JP: I know, but, definitely yes.
LP: We had a bird strike on a Jumbo Jet taking off from Sydney and it looked like we lost two engines on one side, during take-off. Luckily, number 4 engine came good again, otherwise it looked we were going to ditch in Botany Bay.
JM: Interesting.
LP: We came good [unclear] jettison, we were going to Singapore at the time, with about 300 passengers on board. So, we dumped our fuel and while we were dumping our fuel, of course that takes some time, [unclear] on the ground and engineering and they prepared another aircraft while we were dumping to go on to London eventually and Philip, Prince Philip, he’s been a night.
JM: Have you been sick?
JP: Yes, he’s been in hospital. For two days.
LP: And actually in 1963 we had a basing with Qantas, a four year basing in London to fly from London to New York and in 1963 the Commonwealth Games were on and he opened them, but I flew from London to New York.
JM: Oh good!
LP: And there’s a photograph over there that he gave to me heading up on the flight deck landing into New York.
JM: Into New York, he was like that,
LP: Yes.
JM: Even though he was a naval man. But he, I think he was very interested in
LP: He had a helicopter, so I [unclear] fly a helicopter, I asked him, when I first saw him, was I asked him, how as it like to fly a helicopter, he said it was like rubbing your head in [unclear] or vice versa. He was very down to earth, very down to earth, Prince Philip.
JM: That’s interesting, yeah, so, obviously you landed successfully back in Sydney and by which time the plane, the new, the replacement plane was ready so you just walked off and did you then crew that, fly or did they say that you’d done enough hours, that you had exceeded your hours by the time?
LP: I’d flown him from, you’re right, I’d run out of flight time. Actually we’d flown from London to New York and then [unclear] arrival on the minute and they reported right back to the CO to London, couldn’t imagine, can’t imagine how I came from London to New York and arriving on schedule to the very minute.
JM: A feather in your cap then for managing to do that, yes, that was wonderful.
LP: So there’s one of the things that come to mind.
JM: Mind, yes, so, four years in London would have been an interesting experience, so you
JP: Ah, it was wonderful. It was really possibly one of the best times of our life, with young children [unclear] growing up.
LP: We had a lovely double story home in [unclear] Water,
JP: [unclear] Water.
LP: Near the park.
JP: Pardon?
LP: Near the park.
JP: Yes.
LP: What’s the name? Buckingham, not Buckingham.
JM: St James?
LP: Windsor Park.
JM: Windsor Park. Right.
JP: Near Windsor Park. Ah, it was absolutely beautiful. We had the most wonderful four year posting, and the kids were the right age, weren’t they?
LP: Yes.
JP: Just entering their teens.
LP: And we would take them on holiday, over to, over to Europe.
JM: Over to the continent. And around and they gave you a chance to see your family again, I presume.
JP: Oh yes. No, it was absolutely fantastic. Couldn’t have asked for a better posting than that. No, we loved that.
JM: Would have been a lovely time for four years.
LP: I could have extended that posting for another two years except that our son and daughter, our son was eighteen and our daughter was
JP: Sixteen or something.
LP: Sixteen or seventeen. I thought that if we stayed another two years, they’ve never gone back to Australia.
JP: Back to Australia. You know, they would have got [unclear]
JM: Yes.
LP: So we came back and of course my parents weren’t very well.
JM: Very well by that stage, so [unclear]
JP: We did the right thing because it was for your parents mainly. Yes, no, it was the right thing to do.
LP: Yes, so, all. No, could we offer you a bit of afternoon tea now?
JM: Thank you, we will just wrap up here though, and just formally say once again thank you Lorrie very much and June for your contributions, it’s been so thank you indeed.
LP: It’s lovely talking to somebody that’s interested.
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APennL170622
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Interview with Lawrence Penn
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
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01:48:11 audio recording
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Pending review
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Jean Macartney
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2017-06-22
Description
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Lawrence Penn grew up in Australia and worked as a bank clerk before he volunteered for the Air Force. He flew 40 operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron. After the war he had his own air taxi company and also flew for Qantas.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Norfolk
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
226 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
bombing
crewing up
love and romance
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Hartford Bridge
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Turweston
rivalry
Second Tactical Air Force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Ventura
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/305/3462/AMillerRB170129.2.mp3
7d469d66bad863f231a4ed20fe809fa0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Miller, Robert
Robert Bruce Miller
Robert B Miller
Robert Miller
R B Miller
R Miller
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Robert Bruce Miller (1924 - 2021, 423155 Royal Australian Air Force) a photograph and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 51 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Robert Miller and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-30
2017-01-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Miller, RB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EG: Ok, so that’s sort of put that down to record. Uhm, ok, so I guess we’ll start with what is your full name?
RBM: Robert Bruce Miller.
EG: Robert Bruce Miller. And you, what, uhm, Squadron, rank and crew position were you?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Squadron, rank and crew position.
RBM: My final ranking was flying officer.
EG: Yup. And what, uhm, what does that mean for people that might not know?
RBM: That, well, it’s just a rank in the Air Force.
EG: Ok. And your crew position?
RBM: I was navigator.
EG: Navigator. And what does a navigator do in a?
RBM: He tells the pilot which way to go [laughs].
EG: Yeah. And what was the date you enlisted?
RBM: I enlisted, 20th of June 1942.
EG: 1942. And your, and where did you enlist?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: What was your hometown and where did you enlist?
RBM: North Strathfield.
EG: North Strathfield? That’s really close, uhm, where, I’m from Concord.
RBM: Oh, are you?
EG: Yeah!
RBM: Whereabouts?
EG: Uhm, Flavelle Street.
RBM: Alright.
EG: Yeah, mum and dad have lived in Flavelle Street for forty years.
RBM: Oh, my wife came from that area.
EG: Ah!
RBM: Area, Corby Avenue.
EG: Oh cool!
RBM: Which is off the extension of Burwood Road.
EG: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I know. That’s cool. And then, uhm, and we’ve, I grew up there, I went to school at St Mary’s Concord, so just [unclear] in North Strathfield. Yeah, ah, cool! And what school did you go to?
RBM: Sydney Tech High.
EG: Sydney Tech High. And what, were you working before you enlisted or?
RBM: Yes [laughs] I was a trainee chemist.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: At Balm Paints. Which used to be at Cabaritta.
EG: How cool, how cool! And then, did you continue after as a chemist after the war or?
RBM: No. I started off at the university studying engineering.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: But decided to give that up in the second year. I couldn’t really settle down.
EG: And so what did you do after engineering?
RBM: Oh, I did all sorts of things, not odd jobs but my, made me earn a living varied and
EG: Yeah.
RBM: The, uhm, lass that I first took out when I was working at Balm Paints before I enlisted. We sort of became unofficially engaged before I went away and so we were married on Australia day 1946.
EG: Oh, wow! And, what was your wife’s name?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: What was your wife’s name?
RBM: Joyce.
EG: Joyce.
RBM: We seemed to get to know one another better through correspondence over three years than we did when we first started going out [laughs].
EG: Yeah. And how did you meet?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: And how did you meet Joyce?
RBM: I, she was the secretary to the chemist.
EG: Ah, ok.
RBM: At the laboratory and one of the fellows I worked with, I said, I need to find a girl to take to a dance. He said, next Saturday night, he said, I bet you two shillings you’re not game to ask Joyce. I said, what, I couldn’t afford to lose two shillings [laughs]
EG: Ah. [laughs]
RBM: That’s how it started.
EG: And how long were you married for?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: How long were you married?
RBM: Oh, until, Joyce, I can’t remember the date. [pauses] I’d have to look it up.
EG: Oh no, It’s ok, oh, that’s.
RBM: We moved, first moved here in 1999, on Armistice Day 1999.
EG: To, just here.
RBM: To Lutanda, we moved to a villa up there, and until Joyce had to go into a nursing home.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And then I moved in here.
EG: Ok. Uhm, yeah, I actually went to, ended up going to school, I know this area quite well because I went to Barker on my last year so I had quite a few friends that lived around here. Yeah, so that’s how I know this area. That’s, and so, did you write to each other often?
RBM: On a fairly regular base, we had the usual letter numbering system that, you know, so we knew if we missed the other or if we got more than one which one to read first.
EG: Oh really, I, yeah, I’ve never heard of that before. I try and write letters to my friends overseas but it’s, you know, with email now you can get a bit lazy kind of so we don’t really send as much as I used to. Uhm, but that’s, and did you keep all the letters?
RBM: No.
EG: No, you didn’t? Did Joyce keep hers?
RBM: No.
EG: Oh wow, that would have been.
RBM: You know, well, my son-in-law’s father was also in the Air Force and he, and the lady that became his wife, both kept the letters all the way through and they were using a diary that was written by their son-in-law.
EG: And did, oh, that’s, yeah, no, that would have been cool to have seen.
RBM: Can’t hear what you’re saying.
EG: That would have been cool to have seen.
RBM: Oh yeah, yeah.
EG: Yeah. Oh, so nice. And, did Joyce continue on as a secretary of, like, you know, is that what she kind of did as her career, you know?
RBM: Yes, she was a secretary yeah. [coughs] That was the days still following on from the Depression, so, she only went as far as intermediate in high school and took on secretarial work.
EG: Yeah, cool. And, so what made you choose to enlist and go to Bomber Command, what was?
RBM: Well, I didn’t have any choice where I went.
EG: Oh, really?
RBM: But I joined the air training corps and with that you, your parents agreed that you go into the Air Force as soon as you turned eighteen because if you wanted to go into aircrew normally you went on a waiting list and you waited a long time before you could get in and so I went into the Air Force on the 20th of June 1942 and I got back to Sydney exactly three years later.
EG: Oh my Gosh! And so were you eighteen?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: How old were you when you enlisted?
RBM: Eighteen.
EG: Eighteen, Oh my Gosh, so young! Wow, I just, blows me away, when you think, that’s so young.
RBM: Well, you know, I guess it was a different time to make decisions.
EG: Mh, and where did you train when you enlisted?
RBM: Ehm, well [clears throat] excuse me.
EG: That’s cool.
RBM: Well, as soon as you enlisted, you went in what was called an initial training school and they were in various places but there was one at Bradfield.
US: Morning boss. I’m sorry to interrupt.
RBM: Alright.
US: Can I just test your emergency alarms?
RBM: You can do what you like, so long as you don’t ruin it.
US: I won’t ruin it. Sorry.
EG: That’s ok. So, Bradfield was the training.
RBM: Bradfield, yes.
EG: Bradfield. Let’s wait until.
RBM: And they decided, as I already had training and testing there what they would recommend that you do next as far as you training is concerned,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: You could be a wireless operator or a gunner or what they used to call an observer in those days. Or a pilot and there was no such thing as a bomb aimer initially but and initially I was graded to become a pilot and one day the round us all up and said, well, there’s a group going to Canada to train as navigators and we’re short of some people to fill the gap, any, any of you possible pilots have agreed to become navigators, you’re guaranteed to be all to go to Canada to train [unclear] in Australia so me mate and I said let’s go to Canada [laughs]
EG: Wow!
RBM: Where I would be if I hadn’t done that I don’t know.
EG: And what training like in Canada?
US: Sorry, are you doing an interview?
EG: Yeah.
US: So sorry.
EG: That’s ok.
US: You know, I’m painting around your neck.
RBM: Yeah, [unclear]
US: Can you just press that for me. Sorry to interrupt.
EG: Oh, no, no, that’s fine.
RBM: [unclear]
US: You lots of people accidentally pressing up against something and they go off. We’re checking everyone’s in the whole village in their alarm system at the moment.
RBM: disappeared.
US: So sorry.
EG: No, no, that’s fine.
US: [unclear] sorry as long as it works. Ok, that’s fine. Continue and I’ll cancel this off
EG: [unclear]
RBM: That’s to make sure I’m not dead.
EG: [laughs] and yeah, no, what was Canada like?
RBM: Well, have you ever been down to the snow?
EG: I have not, no.
RBM: Well, if you get to Canada through a winter in Winnipeg,
EG: Yeah, oh Gosh!
RBM: Which is right in the middle of Canada, you’ll understand what snow is like. Because that’s what happened, we left here in, oh, we actually we went to Brisbane and then we left from Brisbane in October and sailed to San Francisco and then took the train up to Vancouver and then across,
EG: Wow!
RBM: To our first location in Canada and then from there moved us on to where we were gonna train. So, I was sent to the navigation school in Winnipeg and along with about half a dozen others. So, we spent a winter there [laughs].
EG: I would have been [unclear] Was that the first time you’d ever been overseas before?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: Was that the first time you’d been overseas before?
RBM: Oh yeah.
EG: Yeah. So would have been
RBM: Nobody travelled overseas in those days.
EG: No, so, yeah, it would’ve definitely been, the cold would have been very different. [laughs]
RBM: Well, you, you had to wear earmuffs,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: You had a cap, that actually folded down, yeah, it was folded down but that didn’t really protect your ears so you put earmuffs over them and they were good except when you walked into a shop which were always heated inside, all of a sudden your ears started to burn, you know.
EG: Uhm, and so, how long were you in Canada for training?
RBM: Until, oh, [pauses] I can’t remember the exact date.
EG: Oh, that’s ok, just, was it a few months or?
RBM: Oh yeah, we were there good six months.
EG: Six months?
RBM: Yeah, it was springtime when we left.
EG: And you mentioned your friend. What was your friend’s name, who went to training?
RBM: Dick Eastway.
EG: Dick Eastway.
RBM: But he actually became a bomb aimer.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: That was the time when they deported potential observers up into the two because the bomber areas were getting larger.
EG: And, I think it’s coming up like uhm, oh yeah, so, I find this fascinating like cause I’ve heard a few stories about how people crewed up and did you like, you know, how did you, once you had finished your training, where did you go and how did you find your crew?
RBM: Oh, that’s a long way ahead.
EG: Yeah?
RBM: Oh yeah, because after we trained in Canada,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: We sailed across to England,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And we were lucky we got on the Queen Elisabeth to sail and the danger of getting caught by submarines was much less because I just opened the tabs and went straight out, you know? And zigzagged all the way across the Atlantic and we landed in Scotland and they took us down to Brighton, on the south coast of England, which was so the central depot that they collected them all together before we got posted to various other places. And while we were there, the place got very badly bombed by
EG: So this was when you were in Brighton?
RBM: Bombed by fighter bombers.
EG: In Brighton was bombed?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: It was this Brighton that was bombed?
RBM: In Brighton, yeah. And while we were there, they had us accommodated in usually old hotels or boarding houses or something like that. And some of them got hit, lot of people got killed and we were lucky, it was a Sunday and we decided, we’d go, catch a bus and go out of Bournemouth to a country pub, which we did and it wasn’t until we came back that we discovered that there had been an air raid.
EG: Ah, oh wow.
RBM: And [laughs] some of them, when the air raid sounded, they were in a pub so they went down into the cellar and didn’t get dug out for several days.
EG: Oh no.
RBM: They [unclear] a lot of beer [laughs].
EG: I was gonna say, [unclear] [laughs]. And so I guess, uhm, what was the kind of feeling of everyone if that’s, kind of, it was so intense, what was happening and?
RBM: Something that happened, you know. You didn’t worry about it.
EG: And,
RBM: And because of all the damage that happened there, they sent a group of us off to a small aerodrome that was what was known as an EFTS, Elementary Flying Training School for pilots and they sent a group of pilots and a group of navigators to this little aerodrome and lined us all up and they said, well, you can decide who you wanna fly with and you can take one of those Tiger Moths and you can cruise around and the pilot can practice flying and you can practice map-reading and finding out where you are and all the rest of it. Which was in beautiful early summer weather in England, was lovely and we were able to, we would fly over, you know, Wales and places like that, you know. And that’s the first time I came across that, eh, place in Wales that’s got the name about that long that nobody can pronounce.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And we saw the railway station when we were flying around.
EG: Wow! And, did you make, like, any good friends with any of the English and Canadian?
RBM: I never ever met them again. Actually it was interesting, ehm, the first pilot I flew with at that time, he continued and became pilot in Bomber Command and he finished up as the governor of New South Wales.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: Yeah [laughs] anyway it’s a long story, but, and while we were there, they moved the location of where they were storing people from Bournemouth over to Brighton, which is sort of directly south of London.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And that was much better because it was more open and bigger seafront and all sorts of things. So, we were stuck there for quite a time.
EG: And it was by the place that ended up, that wasn’t the one that got bombed when you were out of the country pub?
RBM: That was, sorry?
EG: Where was the location, sorry, that got bombed when you were at the country pub?
RBM: That was Bournemouth.
EG: OH, ok, I got it down. And then you went, and [pauses], so, when you enlisted and kind of was going through all the training for Bomber Command, did you, were you aware of the high casualty rates, was that something that was?
RBM: Oh, the, yeah, you were aware that I can’t think what was published in the paper now, but, yeah, you know, you knew what happened there. But we had to go for further training after we were at Bournemouth and they sent us up to Scotland and. We did our training there and, I can’t figure the name of that place, it was near where Robbie Burns was born.
EG: Robbie Burns.
RBM: Anyway, and from there, they sent us down to, oh, names, names, names, [pauses]. My memory is not all that good.
EG: Is it?
RBM: West Freugh, a place in Scotland. I can’t [unclear] the name but there,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: It was number 10 Operational Training Unit.
EG: And, so,
RBM: And that was where you formed the crew you’re gonna fly with.
EG: Oh yeah.
RBM: They let that all the pilots and navigators and gunners and everybody else and so on congregated them and used, the pilot first of all go and round talking to people and he gradually formed the group and that became the group you flew with and the pilot I flew with I happened to meet our bomb aimer. One day walking around at the station and they approached me and I was, I’d liked to become the navigator and they seemed reasonable people so I said, yeah.
EG: And were English or Canadian?
RBM: The pilot was an Australian.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And the bomb aimer was a Rhodesian.
EG: Rhodesian.
RBM: But then the rest of the crew were all English.
EG: And, how did you, once you kind of had your crew together, what was your first operation?
RBM: Well, that was still part of the training, we were, it was called an Operational Training Unit and [shuffles through pages] while we were there, we were flying in an aircraft called a Whitley, which you might never have heard of.
EG: No. What, uhm, what is a Whitley?
RBM: A Whitley is a twin-engine plane that was very old and it used to fly almost with the nose down because of the shape of the thing and it, [pauses] it was rather a strange aircraft to fly, and actually you had to be extremely careful that you didn’t smoke on board the aircraft because, the pilot was there, and I sat behind him and just up there was a feeding system for petrol to the two engines so if you happened to light a cigarette
EG: Oh my god.
RBM: the plane was just as likely go up.
EG: Was that common that, did people smoke a lot in, when you are flying?
RBM: People di smoke sometimes, yeah.
EG: Oh my goodness! It’s hard to.
RBM: Not a good habit when you are in the air.
EG: No. [laughs] And, so,
RBM: And then, after we finished training there, we went to what was called a conversion unit which meant you converted onto the type of aircraft that you would fly from a Squadron.
EG: And, what, uhm, what type did you?
RBM: And that, that was a place West of York and we got onto a Halifax aircraft.
EG: Halifax.
RBM: That was called a conversion unit because you were converting to the type of the plane to the type which you would fly on operations. And they, they were usually aircraft that had already been on operations, were getting a bit old. You were lucky if you managed to keep the thing in the air until you finished your training.
EG: Oh Gosh!
RBM: And anyway there quite a number of accidents, planes that didn’t perform correctly.
EG: And did people get killed during training?
RBM: A lot of people were killed in training.
EG: Uhm, and so I guess, cause I can’t imagine how you would feel, but you know ahead of your first operation in, you know, with lots of people being killed in training and knowing that it had such a high casualty rate like, how did you feel? You just.
RBM: That’s something you accepted was gonna happen but we, we got moved, actually we were at that unit for quite a long time over Christmas because it was an extremely bad winter and they couldn’t do a lot of training and we didn’t get to the Squadron until April in the next year. And the Halifaxes we flew in that kind of training unit were, of old design and do you know the difference between the inline engine and a radial engine?
EG: No.
RBM: Well, you know, some aircraft engines have a thing right there in the front, round, that’s a radial engine.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And inline engines are sort of, the cylinders on the Spitfire or Lancaster.
EG: Ok.
RBM: Well assuming there is one behind the other, but they changed the design of the Halifax put the radial engines in and they also changed the design of the fin. I’ll show you. Come over here.
EG: Yeah. Oh wow!
RBM: I can’t move it, it’s stuck down.
EG: I know.
RBM: But that, that’s a radial engine.
EG: That’s so cool.
RBM: And that’s the fin which had rotors that moved around that but the difference between that and the other ones, the earlier ones was, they were sort of diamond shaped and if you got banked too steep, you lost the entire of the aircraft. So they, they were much, much better.
EG: Wow, that’s very cool.
RBM: And I’ve had that since 1946, or something.
EG: Wow!
RBM: That was made by, a wireless operator, gave it to me just before I left England.
EG: He made that?
RBM: Yeah.
EG: Wow! That’s so cool. And what was his name?
RBM: Harry Johnson.
EG: Harry Johnson.
RBM: Actually he did. He was a chap I got to know very well because all the other crew had family to go to all close friends and the pilot had an association with the lass he finally married over there.
EG: Yeah? [laughs]
RBM: And the, the wireless operator sort of took me under his wing and we used to go home to where he lived, in Stoke-on-Trent,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And stayed with a relative of his wife’s, people who, it became a second home to me in England.
EG: Oh.
RBM: I can just turn up there any time. Quite interesting.
EG: These, that’s a lovely photo, these are great photos.
RBM: Oh, that was taken after they gave us this new medal.
EG: And whose wedding is this?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Who’s this at the bride?
RBM: That’s my mother.
EG: She is very beautiful.
RBM: And that’s my wife’s mother and that’s her parents there. And those are our two children.
EG: Wow!
RBM: There’s another one of my mother. And that’s my grandmother and me.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: When I was about three. [laughs]
EG: That’s, they are great photos. I love her wedding outfit, it’s so beautiful.
RBM: Oh good, I have a whole stack in there.
EG: I’ll have to take a few photos. I’ll definitely take a photo of all this stuff.
RBM: Pardon?
EG: Once I’ve finished recording I’ll take a photo on my phone of.
RBM: Ok.
EG: All this stuff, cause mum will love it. Make sure it’s still recording. Yeah, is still going, and so, next one is, were you ever a prisoner of war?
RBM: No.
EG: No? It’s good [laughs] I know. Uhm, and
RBM: We survived.
EG: I, yeah it’s, I can’t imagine. And are you able to describe, uhm, the WAAFs, the ground crew and other aircrew you encountered in the Bomber Command?
RBM: The ground crew were excellent.
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And you and a lot of the aircraft, actually when we first started, we’d get put on an aircraft in various locations because I guess they were getting used to us, to see how good we were and but eventually we were, allocated our own aircraft and the place where it was parked so we had ground crew that were there all the time were there and we got to know them very very well, they were sort of part of the family. You didn’t do anything to upset them and you didn’t do anything that they told you not to do. Just to make sure that everything was alright.
EG: And, how many people in a ground crew?
RBM: Oh Gosh, I’ll probably show you a photo.
EG: Yeah, I’m definitely keen to go through the photos.
RBM: No, not in that, no.
EG: And what were the WAAFs kind of, like what were their role, how did they kind of fit into everything?
RBM: they did
EG: The WAAFs, the women.
RBM: Oh! They did everything, you know, they worked on aircraft,
EG: Wow!
RBM: They drove trucks, they made parachutes, they served food in the mess, they organised transport systems. You know, name it and they did it, and oh, and they organised, they operating with the stations and control towers and aerodromes, were very handy people [laughs].
EG: And was it like did everyone, what was the kind of atmosphere like, did everyone get along or?
RBM: Oh, everybody pulled along together, yeah.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: You know, that was your home and that was the Squadron you belonged to and you wanted that Squadron to have a good name so people didn’t muck up, occasionally there were problems but nothing really.
EG: And, sorry I didn’t ask you this earlier, did you have any brothers or sisters or have any brothers or sisters?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Do you have brothers or sisters?
RBM: Ehm?
EG: Brothers or sisters?
RBM: Not anymore.
EG: Not anymore?
RBM: I had two sisters and a brother.
EG: And did your brother enlist as well?
RBM: No, he was older than me and he was just finishing a university degree when I went into the Air Force and he actually graduated when I was in Canada. And he worked in civil aviation after he came out of the university and got involved in building the Mosquito aircraft.
EG: Wow!
RBM: He, they were balsa ones that were super things except one crashed in Sydney
EG: Oh!
RBM: crashed somewhere near Petersham.
EG: Oh, I’ve never heard of that! Sorry.
RBM: Not widely publicised.
EG: Oh wow! Uhm, and what were the living conditions like on the airfields and how was the?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: How were the living conditions and I guess we kind of touched on this before, but how was the kind of social, like, how did you get along socially and did you?
RBM: Hey were, yeah, we had a Sergeants Mess, and we could turn up there anytime we wanted to and you could, you’d buy a beer or coffee or all sorts of things you wanted there and that’s where the Mess where you ate your meals and the service were pretty good for that and
EG: Was that, this is in England?
RBM: Yeah.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And if you were going on an operation they served you a meal beforehand so you might have a meal in the middle of the night sometimes [laughs] and you’d go off on operation and then have another meal when you got back. And sometimes we’d be a daylight trip and sometimes it would be a night trip. Most of them were night trips for us.
EG: So how long would you be in the plane for, like an average in an operation?
RBM: Oh, four hours.
EG: Was it, it wasn’t very comfortable?
RBM: Oh well, there were no armchairs [laughs] but I, I’ll show you, the pilot was up there,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And down below that, you see, there’s windows on the side.
EG: Oh yeah.
RBM: Well, the back ones were where the wireless operator was and the front ones where I was. And down here was where the bomb aimer was. And that’s where I sat and I had all my things and the screens that I looked at to navigate with there were. you know we went through a lot of training on navigation, of navigating by the stars and all sorts of things, which you couldn’t use in Bomber Command because you know you need to be able to fly straight and steady for quite a long time to do it properly and it took too long to work out all the things, you know so, if you can look underneath and see the things sticking out underneath.
EG: Yeah, yeah.
RBM: That’s a radar, electronic thing that scanned around and after that was developed they had maps that had the shapes of all the cities in Europe so you could read where you were in relation to that town.
EG: Wow!
RBM: And then you’d take another one relation, another town and where there’s a line across that’s where you were. There was a major change to navigation, made things a lot easier. But there was two, the ones at the, uhm, names. There was, they usually followed what they called the master bomber, when you got to the target, the master bomber would have arranged for what were called the Pathfinders to drop flares over the target and he would tell you to bomb that covered flare or that covered flare or whatever. And then you, when you flew over the aircraft, dropped your bombs, you had to leave the bomb doors open for a full minute so that the camera could take a picture of where your bombs dropped and then you closed that up and manoeuvred the aircraft to go straight and level which was a bit entertaining when they were throwing things up at you.
EG: Ok, and so we’ve already asked what type of aircraft, the Halifax, what was, uh, and you kind of touched on this I guess already but what was the best feature and the worst feature of the plane in your opinion?
RBM: Well, the best feature of the plane that was a more modern version of an earlier model and compared to the Lancaster it was a much more accessible plane inside. You could walk up and down the plane without any trouble at all. One of the problems with the Lancaster is that they had a beam across where the wings were and you had to climb over that, which was not all that easy.
EG: And, do you have any particular, on your operations, does any particular incident or like uhm, when something happened that sticks out in your mind?
RBM: [laughs] Well, a lot of things happened but we were going off one night and lined up and started roughly on the runway and just as we were about to get airborne the plane and went like that and we did the trip and came back again and the pilot called up the aerodrome and said he thinks something happened to the starboard wheel and they said, yeah, we have the tyre here, we actually blew a tyre just before we took off. Had it happened a minute earlier, something like that [whistles]
EG: Oh my god!
RBM: And we were taking off over the bomb dump at the aerodrome at that time it would have been a hell of a mess. So we had to go to one of these emergency dromes that they had. There were a number of emergency [unclear] that were set up so that almost any aircraft could land in various spots there and they sent us off to that and the pilot put it down, and he put it down on one wheel and then finally let the other down and there was no damage to the tyre.
EG: Oh my goodness!
RBM: Amazing!! Or damage to the wheel or something
EG: Should be in a movie or something.
RBM; But there were all sorts of things that happened there. Like when we were flying round in the Whitleys on training, they sent us off one night to do cross country and that meant flying up to Scotland and all the way around the place and when we got there it was nine tenth cloud, so you had no chance to take star photographs or get any idea of where you were and the one thing you could have, the aircraft had what was called a loop aerial and then the wireless operator could line that up with certain radio stations and you could get a position by lining those up and finally we got back to where I figured the aerodrome was and the pilot called them up and couldn’t get an answer. So we decided we’d try and get down a bit lower in case and hoped the cloud had disappeared somewhere and just and he sent the bomb aimer up into the nose of the aircraft and this aircraft had the front, you can imagine two windows, one like that and one like that and out of the, in front of the aircraft and as we were doing this, all of a sudden the wireless operator jelled at the pilot to go up and we hit the top of that tree, which was an old pine tree it turned out and as soon as that happened the pilot sent out what was known as a Mayday call and an SOS and finally an aerodrome answered us and we and they lit their runway up and we managed to land there. And so it happened that the pilot was so confused about what was happening. he landed downwind instead of upwind and so, we got out of it alright but the next morning we went out to look at the aircraft
EG: Oh no.
RBM: And those aircraft had an air intake just underneath the propeller and there were pieces of oak tree in there
EG: Oh no!
RBM: I still got a piece somewhere.
EG: Oh!
RBM: We, that was another lucky thing.
EG: Yeah, you were lucky!
RBM: But the bomb aimer got Plexiglas in his eyes and he had to go into hospital for a while but he didn’t get any permanent damage luckily.
EG: Oh wow! That’s and do you have any thoughts or views about the targets you flew to? So, did you find, did you think that any were too dangerous or, you know?
RBM: Oh, you knew what was dangerous because there’s an area called the Ruhr Valley and that’s where a lot major industry was in Germany, large armour steel plants and things like that, a whole lot of it. That was an extremely fortified area and you knew if you go in there, it was going to be a bit touchy you know.
EG: And did you have operations there?
RBM: Oh yeah, several times, yeah.
EG: How many operations did you do?
RBM: Forty two, forty three.
EG: Oh my goodness!
RBM: And the longest one we did was up to Wilhelmshaven, up in northern Germany. I can’t remember how long that was.
EG: And, so you, did you stay stationed in England the whole time or?
RBM: Yeah, yeah, we were there and after we finished our tour of operations they called it, which varied, it started off if you did thirty operations in Bomber Command you went on leave and then the targets got a bit shortened particularly after the invasion and so we had shorter trips but they extended the number so that’s why we went up to forty two or something like that.
EG: And did you know when your last mission, did you know it was your last operation?
RBM: Yeah, because of the number.
EG: Ah, and so, how was the feeling on the last operation?
RBM: I was happy to just put it down again [laughs]. But it was actually only a fairly short trip.
EG: And did you, uhm, as soon as you finished that did you go, head back to Australia?
RBM: Ehm well, we went on leave for a while and then we got posted to a training station and you became somebody that helped train the ones that were coming on, so I went down to one near Nottingham and stayed there for long.
EG: What was it like training people?
RBM: Oh, ok, it was entirely different training to what we did and they tended to have long lectures on things which was a bit boring but there were special gear to help people. You learned to use this H2S thing, so I spent most of the time training people on the use of that and you know, that, I didn’t do a great deal of flying there and then I got moved from there over to another smaller place that name which I can’t remember, but I presume the smallest county in England, and then I got sent back to Bournemouth and waited there till they sent me home. And actually we sailed out of Liverpool and they sent us up on a train at night but we got out and next morning we were in trucks going down to the wharf and all the people were out in the streets of Liverpool banging things and yelling out and making a cheerful noise. Peace had been declared.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: So, really I sailed from Britain the day peace had been declared.
EG: That would been amazing.
RBM: Yeah. And you weren’t allowed to drink alcohol on the boats that carried the personnel but that morning they said you can have a small bottle of beer; it was very early in the morning and a friend and I were just enjoying standing at the railway. He was a very keen beer drinker and he was enjoying a morning beer and I took one sip and I said, no, I don’t like that, and I dropped that over the side and he never forgave me [laughs].
EG: [laughs] And, yeah, what was it, what was it like, when you arrived home, I guess? It was, how would you?
RBM: Oh, actually we, we sailed into Sydney harbour at night and in those days they had that boom across to stop anything unwelcome drifting up the harbour so we parked just inside the heads and got up next morning to a lovely sunny day and there was Sydney harbour.
EG: it’s the most beautiful place in the world.
RBM: And they, they parked us up at Circular Quay, put us on buses and took us back to Bradfield and they had advised the families that you were coming in. So, actually my father got that message after he got to work on whatever day it was and because we didn’t have a phone at home and so he rang my fiancée Joyce and she was in the AAMWS, Medical Women’s Army Service but she had been put on a few days off and living at home, so he managed to contact her there, so he and then pick her up and she came over to Bradfield as I was saying, so Mum and Dad and Joyce, all they did greet me when they lined us up.
EG: That was a pretty amazing moment.
RBM: Yes.
EG: Oh Wow! And I guess, this is kind of a tough question but what do you recall about, kind of the aircrew losses and what effects did those losses have on you and other people in the Squadron?
RBM: You, they didn’t publicise it on the Squadron, you did had, might happen to find out, so and so went missing, you know, and unless you happened to be on operation, in the operation room sometimes and then you’d find a list of all the people that had been on the ops and some had been ticked off and some might have a line drawn through them, doesn’t always mean they were killed but they were certainly missing and I guess we were lucky.
EG: Oh my goodness! And so, how would you like the Bomber Command in kind of, like the kind of immense sacrifices that people in the Bomber Command made, how would you like that remembered and how would you like future generations to think about?
RBM: Well, aircraft and systems have changed a hundred percent since those times but there is no doubt, that Bomber Command had a major influence on the result of the war in Europe, because we were able to just flatten Germany industry and flatten their aircraft industry and by the time we were half way up to Germany, their number of fighter planes and things were minimal but they started to develop these rocket things that sent a rocket up over to London and landed in the middle of that sort of thing. If you wandered down the streets of London, you weren’t quite sure you whether you’re gonna hear something, [mimics the noise of a V1 rocket] and stop and you hoped it wouldn’t drop on you.
EG: Oh, my goodness!
RBM: Interesting.
EG: It’s, I lived in London for a year and it was just weird to think that it was ever that kind of thing happening.
RBM: But in that, to walk around London during that time, the number of streets that just were panelled off because of all the destruction around the place and then go and walk through the same place today, it’s entirely different.
EG: Yeah. I am, I’ve never done country side in England but I am going, one of my best friends from high school is getting married in Rugby this year, so, I’m going to head to Rugby in September, so.
RBM: In September?
EG: Yeah.
RBM: OH, won’t be too cold. No. [laughs]
EG: No. Thankfully. Yeah, I know I’m very looking forward to it. It’s just, it is kinda crazy like to think that there was a time that you experienced like, like how you experienced it. Yeah, it just, blows your mind [laughs]
RBM: Actually, our pilot wrote a diary or kept a diary while we were on the Squadron, of the operations that we were on and I didn’t find about this for quite a long time after the war and I persuaded him to let me have it and I said, I will write it up. So I put together a book, Fawkie’s Diary, that was his name, that was his name, Fawkner, and that was the emblem of the Squadron. It was a goose and I made that out of a Cyprus pine and cedar. I carved that from one from a swan and used that as the emblem. He got a DFC and I got quite a Croix de Guerre at that time and in that’s the whole story of all the operations we were on. And he, he’d written up a resume of his opinion of the people he’d got together, so he let me have that and I put it in there, his thoughts on all the people he was gonna fly with, you know.
EG: Did he have, any thoughts of you there?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Was there some, like, you know, his thoughts on you?
RBM: Oh yeah.
EG: [laughs] Is it possible, could I borrow these to photocopy for?
RBM: No.
EG: No?
RBM: No.
EG: Ok. And again.
RBM: It’s still in existence down in Canberra now.
EG: Ok. I’ll get Mum to track it down.
RBM: A copy of this was given to Canberra.
EG: Ok, I’ll track that down. Fawkie’s war diary. Cause that looks amazing.
RBM: That’s all the trips we did and what I did was, there was a book published that listed all the Bomber Command trips and I took that information out about that particular raid and that, that was, might be down in Fawkie’s Diary and that was the results of the trip. I did that on all the trips and then there’s other bits and pieces there, some of the stuff in England about what was going on and all the rest of it. And that’s where they talked about the Halifaxes, these flying bomb sites and then I followed all up with a bit of history stuff, took a lot of putting together.
EG: It looks amazing.
RBM: A bit of work.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And actually that’s the second edition. The first one I had, I can’t think when I actually published it but it was quite a long time before like, that carving there to get that photograph I had to go down to a camera specialist in Eastwood and organize him to take a photocopy, to take a colour picture of that and to print it in colour. And then, my brother lived at Eastwood and he had a computer and a printer, a very old sort of thing, so, everything I had typed up, we ran through his printer. And I just made seven copies of that and that went to each of the crew and the family stirred me into rewriting it and updating it and then I had copies made for all the families. And [unclear] one down there.
EG: Yeah, I know. We will definitely track that one down. And do you mind if I take a few, uhm, pictures of your logbook as well, just I’ll take a few. I’ll just stop this recording now.
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AMillerRB170129
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Interview with Robert Miller
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:08:58 audio recording
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Pending review
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Emily Guterres
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2017-01-29
Description
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Flying Officer Robert Miller was born in Australia and was training to be a chemist before he volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force. He flew 42 operations as a navigator with Bomber Command.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Peter Schulze
Roslyn Giles
Temporal Coverage
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1942-06-20
10 OTU
aircrew
crewing up
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF West Freugh
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/303/3460/AMcPhersonWhiteR150901.1.mp3
0e5df7f42951c97fd20e9aa7362cf89e
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Title
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White, Roy
Roy McPherson White
Roy M White
Roy White
R M White
R White
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Roy McPherson White (1925 - 2018, 3006061 Royal Air Force), his log book, Service and Release Book, and five photographs. He joined the RAF in 1943 and after training, served as a wireless operator until 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy White and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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White, RM
Requires
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Stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School),
RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit),
RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which flown: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland in 1925. He lived in Scotland until the age of nine, before moving to London, after he received a scholarship to the London Choir. Roy performed with the choir at the 1937 Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth.
Roy left school at fifteen and went to work in the fabric trade at 16, he joined the ATC as a Volunteer Reserve, before joining the RAF in 1943 at the age of 18.
Roy recalls going to Lords Cricket Ground on the “Hallowed Turf” to join up. Roy was accommodated in some near by flats by the RAF. Roy’s brother was also in the RAF, in Costal Command and was a Navigator.
Roy was stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School), RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit), RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which he flew: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
At RAF Yatesbury Roy could easily do the required twelve words per minute in Morse code, and had an excellent American trainer who could do forty words per minute, along as sending and receiving the messages. At certain times, Roy was allowed to teach the class, but was mocked by his fellow classmates. Roy also learnt about the different parts of the radio, how to take them apart and fix them, along with how to fault find on the radio. The signaller would receive a message every thirty minutes, on the mission flight. This message could be about the target, or the weather condition, or even to return to base. The radio waves could also be used to help the Navigator find the correct location. As the Signaller was listening out constantly for messages, he wasn’t on the main crew radio.
Roy also learnt how to take a gun apart blindfolded, which he struggled with but found useful. Roy and his best friend Billy failed the initial training exams, and had to resit them, wit the next unit that arrived. While waiting to complete his exams, Roy worked as a porter at the local hospital, moving the wounded solider sent over from France.
Once Roy had passed all his exams and training, on his passing out parade, he borrowed a uniform for the parade. His uniform was having his brevets sown on by a WAAF on the base.
As part of the Air Crew training for a Signaller to correctly use the radio on board. Roy had to learn about the theory of radio waves, and learn to complete different sounds tests, along with the PNB system test.
When training as an Air Gunner, Roy learnt about the different parts of a .303 riffle and did some clay pigeon shooting. He didn’t receive much Air Gunnery training, as he was to fly on B24 Liberators (the main bombers used in the Middle east) and they used .5 guns, which he didn’t train on until he was in the Liberators.
Roy sailed to Egypt via Gibraltar, as he was a trained Air Gunner, the ships Captain on the merchant convoy, appointed him Ships Gunner and told him to expect to fire the guns. Roy did daily four-hour shift, U-Boat watches on the journey.
When Roy finally arrived RAF Abu Sueir, along with all the other crews. They were locked in a hanger for twenty minutes and told to crew up for the Vickers Wellington that they were to fly. Roy joined a crew with four South Africans and two other Scotsman. The South African crew mostly spoke to one another in Afrikaans.
When Roy was training on Wellingtons, due to a fuel tank problem. The Wellington crashed on landing. Roy banged his head on the radio set and was in hospital for a few days. After the crash, they were assigned a new pilot. The rear gunner got stuck in the Wellington, due to the mechanism being broken.
Roy and the crew then converted to B24 Liberators, which he flew until he left the RAF in 1947. After the war he returned back to his pre-war job in fabric, before running a Antiques shop with his wife before retiring.
Daniel Richards
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I am doing an interview with Roy White and we’re at [redacted] Haunton near Banbury and we are going to talk about his days in the RAF, about how he got to that position and what he did afterwards. So, over to you Roy, if you’d like to gives us your history please.
RW: Right, I was born in Perth, Scotland 1925. I lived there till I was nine years old, then I came to take a recital in London to join a London choir in Margaret Street in London. So I did join the choir at the age of nine and I continued there until I was fifteen. I managed to get into the coronation choir during my experiences there and it was a marvellous experience in actual fact then. When I left the choir I went to the Mercers’ school for a couple of years but I left there and joined a firm that was making fabrics and I was there until I joined up in 1943. I joined up and went to St John’s Wood, Lord’s Cricket Ground on the hallowed turf, we were actually allowed to go across there and we were billeted out in the flats at St John’s Wood from there and kitted out and all the rest. After we’d done all our initial pieces we then went on to Bridgnorth for our initial training wing, which was drill, which didn’t come as a great surprise ‘cause I’ve been in the ATC and we’d done it all before, you know, but the Morse code was alright because we were supposed to do twelve words a minute when we left there but in actual fact I could do twelve when I started, ‘cause I done there, but I found it more difficult with the, with the gunnery in actual fact taking 303s to pieces and what not there because used to have, undo the breechblock with a blindfold on and put it back together which sounds stupid but in actual fact the lighting was very poor on aircraft so in actual fact if something goes wrong it was quite difficult to see so, in actual fact it made quite a lot of sense. So we were there till about the end of the year 1943 and then went to the radio school at Yatesbury and we were supposed to get up from twelve to eighteen words a minute on there and we also did training in arms, we rifles, Sten guns, we did hand grenades as well, what not there to, general training, what not there and my best pal, Billy Wilson and I, when it came to the exams we both failed the same thing on [unclear] and so we had to drop back a week and join the next unit, which came as a big surprise for us because that unit had been marked down for overseas unit, they sent us home on leave again for a fortnight but we joined the unit there. During our period waiting for embarkation we spent a couple of nights at [unclear] hospital, portering the wounded coming back from France, the convoys and we worked all night during operations helping out which was quite an experience ‘cause it really brought it home to you what it was all about when you saw the condition of some of these people who were there, you know, quite difficult, but it was a good experience and we embarked on the ship and we, I’ve never been sailing before, I’ve been across the Isle of Wight, that was my total knowledge of sailing, we thought, oh, lovely, easy trip on there and we saw the sailors loading up shells and wondered what on earth they were for, the first officer came on board, was just walking past us and he said, ‘you gunners?’ And we said, ‘well, air gunners’, and he said, ‘oh good, you can be the [unclear] gunners for this ship.’ And we all looked at each other as if to say what’s he talking about? He said, ‘let me explain, we are classified as an armed merchant cruiser’, he said, ‘that destroyer over there will be looking after one side of the convoy and we should be looking after the other side.’ He said, ‘we’ve got two 4.6 guns on the end of this ship’, he said, ‘you will be firing them at some time’ and whatnot [laughs] ‘but in the meantime you’ll be submarine watching as well on four hour shifts’ [laughs]. So we started our voyage doing submarine watching shifts from midnight till four in the morning on the, dead man’s watch I think, we called it in actual fact [laughs]. So we did that there and we did actually fire the guns so [laughs] much to the amusement of the rest of the people on board the ship but so, yes so that was the voyage. Then we went to Aqir we were from Cairo, we were based there for about a week or so and then went through Aqir just started our training there and from there we went to the gunnery school at Ballah, then came back and did our OTU at Aqir and then finishing that we went down to a Heavy Conversion Unit down Abu Suweir onto Liberators after that, we were flying Wellingtons at Aqir but Liberators down to [unclear] and then after that we, came the end of the war in the Far East ‘cause we were due to go out there on our next trip but the atom bomb dropping, we then faced with nothing to do so, we got posted out to Aden then, to a communications unit there where we flew all over the Middle East, all over the Arabian continent what not, did quite a lot of flying there and did a year there and from there we went to 26 ACU army operation, cooperation unit and that was helping the army in Egypt, we were target towing to, for there so we did that for about nine months. And then we came home in 1947, and I got demobbed up in, on the coast, up north. And came back to my job in London after that.
CB: Ok, so when you returned to your job in London, what did you actually do?
RW: Oh, we were inspecting, we used to make rolls of cloth, and when we, they came back to London we used to inspect them all to make sure that the quality was good and what not, and then
CB: Then what?
RW: And then the firm split up, I went with one director and went with another and I eventually became the director of the firm on, you know, in London.
CB: So what were you supplying? You -
RW: We were supplying the wholesale trade, dress making trade, the fashion trade in other words.
CB: And so becoming a director, what were your responsibilities when you were the director?
RW: Well, re the stock and travelling as well, I used to go and see customers and we used to do the buying and what not you know for each year, ‘cause you are working six months in advance all the time, picking the next seasons, materials, fabrics and all the rest of it, you know, so.
CB: Sounds good.
RW: Quite a good job. Very interesting.
CB: When did that come to an end?
RW: About 1973 or 4 I think, something like that.
CB: Ok, so you were only fifty then, so what did you do next?
RW: Yes. We went into antiques then, you know. My wife had a hat shop and when she left that, we started doing antiques.
CB: Ok. And you did that till when?
RW: We were still doing antiques I mean we came here so till about, I suppose, twenty five years ago, something like that, you know.
CB: Then what?
RW: So we retired then [laughs]. We’d had enough [laughs].
CB: Ok. And did your wife keep busy after that?
RW: Yes, she, she enjoyed her hat shop and she was an extremely good French polisher, which very handy in antiques trade.
CB: For antiques.
RW: And she was very clever, extremely good needle woman, ‘cause her grandmother had been a court dressmaker, you know, so.
CB: Ok. Thank you very much, so now going back to the early days. How did you come to join the RAF rather than the army or the navy?
RW: Well, I’d been in the ACC [sic], my idea was to join, ‘cause my brother was in the RAF as well, he was in Coastal Command.
CB: What did he do?
RW: He was navigator.
CB: Ok. And is he still about, is he?
RW: No, he died unfortunately when he was about fifty odd. He had a heart condition and those days unfortunately there was nothing they could do for them, you know. Today could probably just put a stent on again.
[Other]: It was a different matter.
CB: Quite different.
RW: Unfortunately then he died but he was also very lucky because he was in a crash as well, in a Mosquito went up with a strange pilot because the aircraft had been in for an electrical fault and then this pilot said, would you come up with me because you weren’t allowed to go out without a wireless operator so they went up and after about twenty minutes or so went totally out of control and wouldn’t recognize any of the signals and what not and they just crashed on the runway and while I saw the pictures of it, all you could see was the radio, that was all that was left there and luckily, say luckily, he broke his thigh quite badly. And so reduced him to grade three and so he had to give up flying, you know, after that but the pilot was lucky, he just got nick out of his ear, that was all [unclear].
CB: Right. What happened, what was, did they find out what was wrong with it?
RW: No, as I say, it had been, I think, for an electrical fault so whether it was still there or what not, you know, is hard to know.
CB: We are going back to your situation.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you’ve been in the Air Training Corps at school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And you left school at fifteen.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you stayed with the Air Training Corps throughout that period.
RW: That’s right.
CB: When you were doing what? You were at -
RW: Well, I joined the textiles when I was about sixteen, you know, so I’ve been with them about a couple of years.
CB: That was a company.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, you volunteered, you were being called up at eighteen.
RW: Yeah, I was in the RAF for, you know, [unclear]
CB: Yeah, ok, so how did that go? So, they called you up or you just said, I am joining, I want to join up?
RW: No, they called me up when I was eight, after eighteen, you know, because as conscription after you were eighteen.
CB: Yeah. Ok, so what happened then? ‘Cause you talked earlier about grading, so at what point did you undertake the grading system for aircrew, because they could have put you on the ground you see?
RW: Oh, when I went to Cardington.
CB: Right.
RW: That was it, I just got the notice to stay and we were there two days, most of the first day was medicals and what not and then the second day was all the various testing and then we had a board interview with the wing commander I think who went through all our details and said, yes or no, you were suitable.
CB: And what sort of testing did they do to decide whether first of all you’d be aircrew rather than ground crew and secondly which type of aircrew?
RW: They’d give you some educational test and for wireless operators they’d just give the difference between different sounds, you know, to pick it out as to say whether you could tell the difference [unclear]
CB: Yeah, sure.
RW: But that was the basics of it.
CB: Right, because they had the PNB system, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer
RW: That’s right, yes, and I think they had different things for each of them, you know
CB: Yeah. And had you volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner?
RW: Yeah, because they said, why do you want to be a wireless operator? I said, well, I’ve been in the ATC, I enjoyed [unclear] I want to be a wireless operator, you know [laughs].
CB: Ok, good. So then you went on to do gunnery.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And how did that go? So,
RW: It was quite good, the training was quite good but it was fairly short course ‘cause they knew we were going onto Liberators and because different guns, instead of the 303s you’re on the point five, so there wasn’t a lot of training for that because they knew you’d be going over to the other ones afterwards.
CB: But how did they train people to be an air gunner? What was the first thing they did, because you hadn’t been in the air before so what was the process that you went through?
RW: Well, just mainly the basics of the 303 machine gun, you know, to learn all the bits and pieces of it, that took the most of the time.
CB: And when you start, when did you start shooting with an aerial?
RW: Well, we only did a little bit of shooting there.
CB: Was that, clay pigeon or initially, or how did they do it?
RW: Yeah, we did clay pigeon shooting and what not at Yatesbury as well as Ross rifles, what not, we did all that sort of thing.
CB: What rifles?
RW: Ross rifles, Canadian rifles they were.
CB: Oh, right, that was shooting at targets.
RW: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Ok. So they didn’t put you in any turret at that stage.
RW: No, not at that stage, no.
CB: Ok. Good. So the point you were making earlier about the Liberator is that it is an American aircraft so it’s got different guns and they are .5 machine guns
RW: That’s right.
CB: And a completely different setup.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But when you got to the end of the course they recoursed you because you and Billy Wilson didn’t get through, what caused you to fail?
RW: It was a radio test, what you did, you tuned up the transmitter to get the maximum aerial, and you had, you were supposed to retest it, to make sure that you were on the right one and not on the reverse signal there and it was one of the few tests that if you failed that was it, you had to, the other things you could fail but it didn’t matter quite so much.
CB: Ok.
RW: But this particular one we both failed on the same thing so all we did was just retrain for a week and retake it all again, you know.
CB: Ok. The reason why we’re asking the questions is of course people have absolutely no concept of what is involved in the individual trade specialities.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So when you came to do radio training how did that work? They started you said earlier with the Morse code.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But then you got on to using radio, so could you describe please what was the process of training to be a wireless operator?
RW: Well, you had to learn all the innards of the various sets, all the various valves and what they did and they went through all the theories of what radios waves were and how they worked, all of the rest of it, you know, it was, quite involved learning all of that you know, something new completely to me at the time and of course in those days with the big old valves and what not not like the modern things now, and it was quite a complicated business fault finding ‘cause they used to do testing, putting faults in the system and find out where they were, all that sort of thing, and it was quite complicated you know to do it all but -
CB: So there was a lot of theory?
RW: Yeah, a lot of theory.
CB: And then there was practical, so how did that work?
RW: Practical. Very good in actual fact I enjoyed you know Morse code for my sins the instructor used to let me take the class when he was getting tired, usually [unclear], used to start a bit of a riot with all the class, they said, don’t you go too fast now! [laughs] Oh no, so, I used to take the class occasionally [unclear] but I enjoyed Morse code.
CB: So, Morse code you needed to know because of the signals coming in.
RW: Yes, that’s right.
CB: And going out but what was actually the job of the air signaller, the radio operator?
RW: Well, on half hour used to get the messages from coming in, I mean it might say return to base or weather bad or whatever, the rest of the time you could use the radio compass to find out the way back to base and stuff like that you know and you could find your position by contacting two different stations and asking them to verify what your position was [unclear]
CB: So in practical terms you were helping the navigator, were you, in position and indication?
RW: Yes, in an actual fact, you could pass it over to him, say what it was [unclear]
CB: And did the navigator ask you to do that?
RW: Not that, not that I remember.
CB: Later on.
RW: But I used to pass it on to him anyway, you know, see whether there was any commonality [laughs]
CB: So you were teacher’s pet in this business of the training for being a wireless operator?
RW: I don’t know about that! [laughs]
CB: But -
RW: No, he was, mainly, he was on an American, he worked for Wells Fargo, he was absolutely fabulous operator, quite incredible.
CB: And he had operational experience, had he?
RW: Yeah, I think he could do about forty words a minute actually on there which was absolutely incredible and he could send messages and receive them at the same time, you know.
CB: But had he got aircrew experience?
RW: No.
CB: Oh, he hadn’t. Oh, ok. So what about the other people who were on the course, so they were barracking you not to go too fast, so what were the people and what were they like? What sort of people?
RW: Oh, they were great bunch of fellows, as in actual fact you know, wonderful sense of humour, all pulling the leg if they had to [laughs] but oh yeah, great bunch of blokes in actual fact.
CB: And presumably they had some kind of aptitude, did they, to do this work because.
RW: Oh yes, they did, in actual fact, you know, we all [unclear] in different ways, they all come from different backgrounds, all sorts of things.
CB: Had any of them got radio experience before?
RW: I don’t think so, oh yeah, one chap had, I think he worked for Marconi or something like that but most of the others never had, you know so [unclear]
CB: So you and Billy Wilson were recoursed.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What happened to the other members of the course? I mean, where did they go?
RW: Oh, I think they must have gone straight on over here to OTU gunnery school and probably onto a squadron you know [unclear] left behind, you know.
CB: So you kept in touch did you, with some of the people so -
RW: No, I didn’t, actually, in actual fact, you know [unclear], so I don’t know quite where they all finished up, but I have no doubt they finished up in a squadron somewhere round about.
CB: It’s interesting that you then being recoursed, you went to a different unit.
RW: Yeah.
CB: That meant you had to go in the convoy system.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Out to the Middle East.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Did you go around the Cape, did you?
RW: No, went straight, went straight through Gibraltar, a long way to Port Said [unclear]
CB: Right. Ok. So when you then got to Egypt, what was the routine then because you’d done your basic training including gunnery but you hadn’t done .5 machine guns, so what did you do as soon as you got to Port Said?
RW: I think we went to Cairo, as I say, for about a week or ten days, something like that and then straight to Aqir, to the base I think there, and then from there to Ballah, you know, to the gunnery school after that, they did that first to get that out of the way before the OTU, you know.
CB: So how was the training, how did they do the training in those two places, at Aqir and Ballah?
RW: It was mostly paper work, you know for the biggest part of the time, you know, in actual fact, fill in all the different bits and pieces that were there.
CB: And the gunnery, how did they do that?
RW: I’m not sure we did a lot of that because I think what they were thinking, we were going on to Liberators anyway so wasn’t gonna make a lot of difference to do that, you know, so in actual fact I think we curtailed it.
CB: So at what stage did you crew up and where?
RW: Well, what they did when we went to Aqir, they marched us all up into a big hangar, said, ‘right, we are going now, we are locking the doors, we’ll come back in twenty minutes, sort yourself out a crew’ and that was it [laughs], that’s exactly what you did, you all talked to each other and finished up going on to a crew.
CB: So this is crewing up for Wellingtons?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you don’t have an air engineer, you don’t have a flight engineer.
RW: No.
CB: So, how did you -
RW: We had a second pilot.
CB: Oh did you? Who took the initiative in making the crew up?
RW: Well, you just sort of walked into people and said, ‘well, can I be with you’ [laughs] and they said, ‘oh yes, why not?’ You know, my name is Roy, you know [unclear]
CB: ‘Cause you all got brevet so you knew what your specialities were.
RW: Of course, some of them I knew but others most of them I didn’t know at all you know so because our crew was, there were four South Africans in it, you know, it’s unusual, you know [unclear]
CB: So tell us about who were the people there then, in the, individual, the pilot, who was the captain, the pilot, who was he?
RW: The pilot was a Lieutenant Van Sale.
CB: South African.
RW: And there was Lieutenant Erasmus was the co-pilot and there was a front gunner and a rear gunner, they were both South Africans.
CB: Right. The navigator?
RW: Two Scots, and then one Englishman, [laughs] that made up -
CB: So, did you class yourself as a Scotsman or an Englishman in that?
RW: Well, as a Scotsman, you know.
CBN: Right, ok. So, how did the others go then? Who was the navigator?
RW: Navigator was the Englishman. Yeah, he was an officer as well [unclear]
CB: And what was his experience?
RW: I don’t know really, in actual fact where he’d come from, in fact. I think like everybody else he just arrived at Aqir you know, [laughs] sorry I don’t know where from in actual fact but -
CB: The reason -
RW: We were all a great bunch anyway.
CB: Yes. And so you crewed up and you did your, you did then gunnery training when you were in the Wellington, did you?
RW: No, I did radio, just radio, that’s all.
CB: Ok, right. So you didn’t do gunnery normally, it was just a secondary -
RW: No, no, I was just filling in.
CB: Right. Ok. And then how long were you there at the OTU?
RW: A sheet somewhere.
CB: Because it took a little while to do all the training on the Wellington presumably.
RW: Yes, it did, in actual fact.
CB: Just looking at the form.
RW: We finished in June ’45 at Aqir OTU and then we went to Abu Suweyr and finished up in September ’45 there, just one day after they dropped the atom bomb, you know, so.
CB: Yeah, but by then you went to Abu Suweyr because of the Liberator?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, that took more crew, so how did that work?
RW: Yeah, we made up, because, I don’t think I said but [unclear] the aircraft, as far as we know, a bomb exploded on board, I think it got caught up in the release mechanism and they were all killed.
CB: On the ground or in the air?
RW: In the air, you know and about three days later our pilot was told to switch over tanks, he switched over to an empty one, cut both the engines and -
CB: This is in the Wellington?
RW: In the Wellington, that’s right.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And so we finished up in a field on that, how he managed to control it I don’t know but -
CB: This was without an instructor?
RW: We had an instructor with us, thank God.
CB: Oh you did?
RW: So, yeah, so we finished up in the field and the laugh was I didn’t know anything about it because I’ve been on my radio ‘cause I cut myself off from the rest and the first thing I knew was my going straight into the radio thing front there and I was livid because I thought, what kind of a landing is that? [laughs] but it was a fantastic piece of work, in actual fact, how he did it, and I mean, we were just lucky to be over some fields, if we’d been over a built up area we, you know, there’d be no way out, but just lucky that was a field there.
CB: What did they do with the pilot?
RW: I think, he left us after that, yes, that’s right, got a new pilot as a matter of fact, so.
CB: As a captain.
RW: Yeah, captain.
CB: Another South African.
RW: Another South African, yeah, that’s right, slightly older so, so we got a different instructor, we had a squadron leader, the chief instructor then so.
CB: Interesting, so how did the crew gel together?
RW: Oh, very well really, considering they come from all different backgrounds, you know.
CB: Did they South Africans, because of their names, it sound as if they were Afrikaans? Did they?
RW: Yeah, they spoke to each other in Afrikaans because it was better for them, I mean they speak English very well but they tended to speak to each other in Afrikaans some of the time.
CB: But you didn’t mind.
RW: No.
CB: But you knew a bit of it after a bit.
RW: Not really [laughs], I had enough trouble trying to learn Arabic! [laughs]
CB: Did they give you courses in Arabic?
RW: No, just picked it up, you know, from bits and pieces during the day.
CB: Right, right. So you finish on the OTU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: You go to the HCU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: To go to change to heavies and you’re going onto Liberators.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was the process there?
RW: Going on to Liberators, just getting used to, ‘cause they were quite complicated the American sets, they were very good, the Bendicks was a marvellous transmitter, they used to ask us not to transmit over the station because it used to drown all [laughs] communications in actual fact but it was very good, in actual fact.
CB: So now, you were just allocated other aircrew because for instance there was no engineer on the -
RW: Yes, I think one of them was off, Billy my friend’s crew that got killed ‘cause unfortunately they had to drop one out when the instructor was with them so there was one crew member left, one poor gunner left on his own so we took him on as one of our spare ones, on there.
CB: How many crew were there on a Liberator?
RW: Eight on there.
CB: Ok. Where did the engineer come from? Was he a South African as well?
RW: Well, he was second pilot, you know, Lieutenant Erasmus [unclear]
CB: Ah right. Ok. Good. Now some of the difficult things in the circumstances were obvious in Britain but in some cases they were also abroad. One of them is LMF, lacking moral fibre.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, did you come across that at all?
RW: No, there was a slight bit of it because when we had our crash, the rear gunner got stuck in his and couldn’t get the turret to move, you know, I think he was scared [laughs] it was gonna go up, you know, without him, so there was some talk at the time that he was going to give it up but in actual fact he didn’t, he went back again but I think there were odd cases of people who did give up.
CB: And what did they do with them?
RW: I don’t know what they did, I presume they put them down in the ground staff job, but I don’t really know.
CB: ‘Cause in Britain they had a very firm way of dealing with them.
RW: Yeah, they didn’t like it you know ‘cause obviously it wasn’t good for morale.
CB: No.
RW: No.
CB: The other is the STDs, the sexually transmitted diseases. So how did that get dealt with?
RW: I remember that they had somewhat horrific films they showed you at St John’s Wood when we first went there [laughs] but I think that was their method of dealing with it mainly you know, in actual fact, but it was really all the confrontation we had with it, you know.
CB: Ok. Good, I’m gonna stop there for a mo. We are restarting now just to talk about some extra items.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what about accommodation?
RW: Accommodation was quite good, you had your own space and locker where you keep all your own private bits and pieces, you know, photographs and letters from home all the rest of it you know and the food generally was very good, you know, we enjoyed it and what not, nothing really to complain about, it was really, really quite good.
CB: Did you get better food because you were aircrew?
RW: Yes, I think so.
CB: Even in training?
RW: Yeah, I think so, yes, on there. ‘Cause at a sergeant’s mess you know and what not there, so used on your own, quite decent but we reckoned it was better than the officer’s mess [laughs] so we didn’t know.
CB: So you had lockable lockers but were you in Nissen huts or what sort of accommodation did you have?
RW: Yes, sort of Nissen huts, you know, there, and yes in Aqir.
CB: So, were they insulated?
RW: Not really, because it was very hot, you know, all the rest of it, the climate was quite hot out there so, don’t really [unclear] much from there,
CB: No.
RW: But they were quite comfortable, I must say.
CB: Right. And in the UK, what about the accommodation there?
RW: No, fairly basic there, I remember polishing the floor [laughs] so corporal used to come and dump a great load of polish on the floor and say, ‘polish that’ and it took about an hour to get it [laughs]
CB: With a bumper and a liner.
RW: That’s right, a bumper up and down and one sitting on it and going up and down but yes [unclear]
CB: Now you started as an AC2.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did the promotion system work?
RW: Well, when you finished your course at Yatesbury, you got your promotion to sergeant, used to be quite funny actually because what we used to do is borrow somebody else’s uniform for the parade that day and get the WAAFs to sew all our stuff on there so the minute we came out for our parade we could put our new jackets on with all the rest of us so we were all in borrowed, borrowed gear [laughs] when we went on parade then.
CB: And your brevet was what?
RW: Pardon?
CB: What was the brevet?
RW: The brevet, that originally it was air gunner and then it went to signaller later on they changed after about a year to signaller.
CB: And so you are now a sergeant, how long were you a sergeant?
RW: Till, till I was down in Aden when we took a board from there, got flight sergeant.
CB: And how did the pay change?
RW: It was more, I can’t remember what it was [laughs] wasn’t a fortune but it was better than it was before, you know.
CB: You knew where you were going to go when you left the RAF. Were you waiting to get out waiting for demob or did you just say, I want to be demobbed now? [emphasis]
RW: No, we just got sent home, that was all afterwards, no sort of forecast or anything, we just, we were 26 AACU, they just said, right, you are posted home you know and that was it, little or no warning [unclear]
CB: And where did they send you?
RW: To Lytham St Annes.
CB: And what was the process there?
RW: Just got all your civvies which we hadn’t seen for donkey’s years [laughs], you know and all the bits and pieces, got your vouchers and your travel warrants and all those [unclear] and I was due about six or seven weeks leave I think something like that, you know, so I didn’t take it up [unclear] but yes that was the end of that you know.
CB: So, the war’s ended, you’ve been demobbed two years later.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You then go into civilian life, having been in the ATC and joined as a volunteer reserve person, what was your commitment for future years?
RW: Well, I quite liked the job that I went to, you know, so I decided I’ve been toying with the idea I might stop in the RAF but I decided, no, I’d sooner go back to the textiles so, in a way I’m glad you know that I did, because I enjoyed textiles so it’s very good you know.
CB: But you were required, as a VR man, you were required to remain in the VR,
RW: Yes.
CB: That’s what I meant. Till what age?
RW: I got my release, release thing, I think all the dates and what not are back there, how many years I’m on reserve ‘cause they said [unclear], you might be eligible for call up in an emergency and what not.
CB: And did you join any air force associations afterwards?
RW: I was in the RAFA for a while not long after, played cricket for them, while, I enjoyed that in actual fact [laughs]
CB: Did you do much cricket when you were in the RAF?
RW: When we were down at Aden I played cricket down there you know, we’d to play the officer’s mess, we used to like beating them [laughs]
CB: Good, Ok, thank you very much, I’m going to stop there for a mo. Right, you mentioned earlier about the aircraft that was downed because of a hang-up.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And the bomb, were you in formation with that or was it a separate and what happened?
RW: No, we weren’t flying that day, we were between lectures and I just came back at lunchtime and as I say next door were just empty bedsprings, nothing on the locker nothing I said you know, where’s Billy’s stuff, and he said, haven’t you heard? No, and he said, oh, you know he’s gone and got killed, you know, I was shattered you know.
CB: This is your friend Billy Wilson.
RW: Yeah, that’s right, so as I say, we never got an official report, you never did with these things, but that was what we heard, and it sort of ties up with the fact that nobody got out, it was an experienced pilot on board, an instructor, you know, there were no survivors, nobody parachuted out or what not there so must have been something disastrous that happened you know, so that was it.
CB: So how did you all feel as a crew after that?
RW: Oh, a bit shattered, especially when we had our own one a couple of days after [laughs], wasn’t a very good week in actual fact.
CB: So when you had your own engine failure because of fuel starvation, that was, what height was that?
RW: I’m not really sure but all I can think was that the pilot had to keep the nose down because they daren’t let the nose go up, go out of control so if we were flying, say six thousand feet, take what, two, three minutes with the nose down, something like that so he had to find somewhere in about two or three minutes.
CB: And he wasn’t able to switch, he wasn’t able to switch the fuel correctly and restart.
RW: No, there wasn’t time because I mean he had more than his job, ‘cause it was a heavy aircraft the Wellington but to keep control of it with no engines it must have been a heck of a job, you know, to do that, just to try and keep it level and what not there and at the same time try and find somewhere you could put it down, you know, so.
CB: What did he say to the crew on the intercom?
RW: I don’t really know ‘cause I wasn’t on it, you see, I didn’t know anything about it, you know.
CB: You were listening out, were you, on the radio?
RW: I was listening out, ‘cause it was more than your life’s worth, to miss the messages on the half hour, then, you know, if you came back and your logbook had got no messages, so, what goes on, you know,
CB: So that’s an important point as you’re, now you’re flying, your role is to listen out to signals.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually have to do? You were listening to signals but how did that work?
RW: Well, as I say, it might be just trial messages that you think on there but as I say occasionally would be something like return to base, weather bad or something else like that which you of course you would then pass on them back to them on there so that was why they absolutely insisted that you got the half hour messages, you know, didn’t miss them.
CB: Because they would send particular messages on the half hour.
RW: Yes, they did on Bomber Command I think, if they had anything there had a registered time to send the messages and you had to make sure you got them.
CB: So we are talking about this crash, how, who else was hurt in the crash?
RW: The front gunner broke his ankle but that was the worst of the injuries, which is absolutely incredible really.
CB: And was the bomb aimer also a gunner?
RW: No. No.
CB: He simply was the air bomber.
RW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Ok. So, thinking of your flying experiences in total, what would you say were the best times and what were the worst?
RW: I think, flying in the communications unit down at Aden was the best time in actual fact ‘cause it was so varied, you know, all sorts of things, we actually took an air vice marshal round on a tour of the thing, the CO called us up one day and he got a letter in front of him and said, ‘I’ve just had a note from the Air Ministry to say that they are sending Air Vice Marshal Sir Charles’ - I can’t remember what his surname was – ‘on a tour of inspection and we’ve been given the job of taking him round, so I don’t want anything to go wrong understood?’ [laughs] So he says [unclear] so we’ve, I’ve never seen so much top brass in my life ‘cause they all appeared, the Governor’s car turned up, his Rolls Royce and they were all involved.
CB: This is in the Liberator?
RW: No, so, no, it was a Wellington converted on [unclear] so, yes so, and a very nice lady officer with him as well there, which cheered everybody up but yes so we took him round, we actually had dinner together the evening which surprised me [unclear]
CB: He was a flying man, I take it?
RW: Yes, I think he was one of the top handful of people in the end, the chief of technical training command I think he was something like that you know, so.
CB: What was the worst experience you had?
RW: Let me think now, I should think probably the day Billy’s crash I think it was probably about the worst day of it all really, rest of it, you know, was bad, that was the sort of low point from the time but get over it, you know.
CB: Had you known his parents, before you went out?
RW: No, unfortunately not, no, and the worst thing was I wanted to go on his funeral parade but we were all on sick leave you know, they wouldn’t let us go on parade you know so I didn’t get the chance to, well you know, say goodbye.
CB: You were on sick leave. What sort of sickness did you get?
RW: Ah, well, I had a sore head [laughs] for about a week afterwards but you know apart from that it wasn’t bad you know.
CB: Yeah. From the crash. Yeah.
RW: Yeah, but they obviously decided, you know, to give us some days off.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ve had a good interview now so we are looking at pictures and various things and we’ll wrap things up.
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AMcPhersonWhiteR150901
Title
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Interview with Roy White
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:53:22 audio recording
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-09-01
Description
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Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland but grew up in London. He joined the Air Training Corps, went on as a volunteer reserve and then served as an air gunner in the RAF. Tells of his brother serving in Coastal Command and surviving an aircraft crash. Gives some insight in aircrew roles such as radio operator and air gunner. Mentions various episodes of his service life: training in England and Egypt; an aircraft crash in which a friend got killed; flying with a South African crew; being assigned to submarine watching and manning the guns on his journey to Egypt; towards the end of the war, being posted to the communications unit at Aden. He served as a wireless operator in Egypt post war.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
Middle East
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Alexandria
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
aircrew
B-24
crash
crewing up
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Aqir
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/PHarrisB1604.1.jpg
4d93a86a74881c8fecbe08584fd4d043
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/AHarrisB160626.1.mp3
b2fdeeb3d2a420c4b51393c6b2ae8f14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harris, Bernard
Bernie Harris
B Harris
Barnard Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Bernard 'Bernie' Harris (b 1925 - 2017, 1863168 Royal Air Force) an air gunner who served at the end of the war on 622 Squadron flying Lancaster on Operation Manna. In addition a photograph of four trainees.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bernie Harris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-09
2016-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, B
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TO: Ok, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever
BH: That’s a quick day, yeah [laughs]
TO: Whatever the case may be.
BH: Yeah.
TO: We’re recording, we’re filming this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The gentleman I’m, that I’m interviewing is Mr. Bernie Harris. My name is Tomas Ozel and we are recording this interview on the 26th of June 2016. Could you please tell me what year you were born in?
BH: What?
TO: What year were you born?
BH: 1925.
TO: And were you interested in aircraft as a child? Were you interested in aircraft as a child?
BH: Oh yes, yeah. Yeah, my father was in Royal Flying Corps, he passed it on. But always interested in aircraft, anyway.
TO: Did you collect model planes?
BH: Yeah. Spitfires, Defiants, Lancasters, yeah. Defiant were made with Balsa wood. These days they are more sophisticated but it was made with Balsa wood and coverings. They even put a little turret on top of the Defiant as it was then fighter aircraft with a turret for night fighters.
TO: And did your father ever talk about his experience in the Flying Corps? Did your father ever tell you about his time in the Flying Corps?
BH: Not very often, no. He kept it, like most air crews today I think. He didn’t talk about it much. Nor do air crew today, it’s only in the recent years where there’s not many of us left now become more interested but it’s taken 60, 70 years to recognize Bomber Command in the RAF.
TO: And what was your first job?
BH: My first job was to be apprenticed to tool making and I lived in Forest Gate in East London and I was apprentice to an engineering company in Islington and I was apprenticed to become a tool maker. But after six months, on a drill, right, I thought I was been taken advantage of, so I left and went off somewhere else and took a couple jobs [unclear] and finally I volunteered at sixteen and a half. In a nearby recruiting place, which is still there, Romford in Essex and in between I had a job in a shop one thing and the other. My father was a tailor and he wanted to teach me and he said, right, you start right from the bottom and you sweep the floor, and I said, ‘no, I don’t’, and that was the end of that [laughs] ‘Til finally I got myself in a job in a shop, which wasn’t bad, it was a tailor’s shop, actually, and I said, I volunteered with sixteen and a half and eventually, father had to sign for me really, I can still remember, father sitting at a table with a form in front of him, my mother leaning over his shoulder saying you’re not going to sign that are you? And he said, ‘if he wants to go, he goes’ and he signed and that was that. And then from on I went to Carding, Cardington [unclear] a test station you probably know about, and if you passed that in three days you were good and you came out there and you were graded PNB, pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and just waited for the call. And it was just before my eighteenth birthday that I got the call and that was that. I was in.
TO: Do you remember what medical tests they gave you?
BH: A1.
TO: And do you remember the things that they tested?
BH: The what test?
TO: The thing that they tested like your eyesight
BH: Oh yeah, everything. If you came out of there Cardington you knew that you were sane and you knew you were a hundred percent fit. No problem. 20/20 vision, hearing, everything, you were, I mean aircrew were the fittest of the lot I think. Examinations of course not only medical, physical, eyesight, hearing, mathematics, it was a three-day course with, when it was completed you got the badge RAFVR and that was that.
TO: And in the 1930s did you hear about Hitler’s aggression in Europe?
BH: In the 1930s I was aware of fascism in this country, I was eleven and also the Spanish civil war, I remember the placards with planes, with swastikas on them dropping bombs and flames in their placards. I’m Jewish, my, and even then I thought, you know, things are not so good. I knew what was going on in Germany through the [unclear] and but not to the extent about concentration camps or anything like that but I was aware of Moseley and his mob, saw them marching, you know, one thing and the other and also the Brady Street march in which he was stopped, yeah, I was aware. And all the more reason to get in the fight.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain? What do you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
BH: What?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain and his plan of appeasing Hitler?
BH: I don’t know really. But can you say that again?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain when he signed the Munich Agreement with Hitler?
BH: Oh Chamberlain?
TO: Yeah.
BH: Well, I wasn’t politically motivated at that age but it, I mean, from listening to the parents and other people they thought, maybe he’s avoided a war, but as it turned out he didn’t, so. So, my opinion of him was neutral. Well, I wasn’t politically aware. As it turned out, he was wrong.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for the war?
BH: Ah yeah, very well because I was fourteen and I’d left school but I got, I had, I’ve two sisters and a brother, who are younger than me, and my mother for some reason said, ‘stop work, I’m getting you evacuated’. And we were all evacuated to Chelmsford and guess what? Right next to the Marconi radio factory right, prime spot, yeah, I remember the guys being, territorial was being called up, preparations for the black out, the first air raid siren and I remember that vividly, yeah, I suppose it was more of a thrill than anything else, [unclear] something different, right? Yeah, I remember that vividly, but it wasn’t long before I got the bus and came back home, used to be an eastern national bus, used to go from Bow to Chelmsford and from Chelmsford back to Bow, I lived in Forest Gate was on the route so that was that back home. Eventually my mother took my young, my younger brother, sister, and two sisters to Wells, she evacuated to them there. And I was left at home with my father.
TO: Were you surprised when the war started?
BH: No, not really. I did read, at that age I read newspapers and I wasn’t surprised, I don’t think I was even fearful in that sense. More of an adventure, I think.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war started?
BH: September the 3rd, 1939. No, I don’t actually remember what I was doing then but I remember the first day of the Blitz, the day Blitz vividly because my brother and I, we went to the local cinema called the Coronation in Manor Park and they were showing Gone with the Wind. And during the course, that the raid started and all the lights went up, they said, ‘you all [unclear] to leave if you want but you can go back, if you want to stay, go back under the balcony which is safer’ so we decided to do that. When we came out there was rubble everywhere and in the distance was my father saying where you two so-and-so’s have been, we’ve been looking for you. And I remember that was the first day of the Blitz. But September the 3rd, I can’t really remember was it, I think was a nondescript day.
TO: Do you remember Chamberlain’s speech?
BH: Yeah, ‘cause there was no television in those days. There was television, but only for the few that could afford it. But as soon as war had broke out the television stopped, anyway, yeah, peace in our time. There is a little piece of this, and a little piece of that, and I’ll have the whole lot.
TO: And you remember the speech where Chamberlain announced that we’d declared war?
BH: Yeah, that was on the radio, there was sort of quietness everywhere, everything seemed to have gone quiet.
TO: Did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
BH: Yeah, I’d two cousins. Actually he was, the first into Paris with De Gaulle and another one, he was a Spitfire pilot and finished up ferrying aircraft. My brother went in as a boy, because he’s two years younger than me, he is dead now unfortunately and he was no higher than this and because I went in he went and volunteered as a boy and he also volunteered down at Romford, anyway he went off, my father realised what he’d done, chased after him, when he got to Romford he asked what, oh, your son has just gone to Romford Station and he’s off to Abedon, Aberothy something or it’ll come to me in a minute and the tale is that he got to Waterloo and he said, went up to a military policeman and said, ‘we are so sorry’, he said, ‘why have you joined his Majesty’s service?’ He said, ‘yes’, he said, ‘well, come with me so’. And that was that, so my brother was in the service as well but he wasn’t involved in the war, he was a boy entry and that was that.
TO: Did they allow boys then? Did they allow boys in in certain roles?
BH: Yes, he was trained in [Reemey ?] and what killed him off was that he was finished up after the war, going to the hospitals repairing x-ray sets, and they didn’t do him any good at all. They didn’t have the facilities to have the protection in those days as they have now, so that unfortunately killed him.
TO: And did you have an air raid shelter at your house?
BH: Yeah, Anderson, the Anderson in the garden. There was a nightly call.
TO: [unclear] camera back so.
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, just checking the shutter. Yeah, it’s fine. Sorry about that. And did you consider joining the army at all?
BH: I did the air force.
TO: What appealed to you about the air force over the other services?
BH: Well, you go to the air force, you can fly. And then again, in those days, it was the only force that get in touch with the enemy. Especially after Dunkirk.
TO: And how did you feel when you heard about the Dunkirk evacuation?
BH: Pardon what?
TO: The Dunkirk evacuation. How did you feel when it happened?
BH: I can’t really explain really. It’s, it’s a mixture of excitement, in one thing or the other, and getting away from the humdrum.
TO: And were you ever worried that Germany would win?
BH: Never doubted it. Never doubted it.
TO: Can you tell me a bit about what you remember from the phoney war?
BH: The phoney war? Well, the phoney war was [emphasis] phoney. Everything was quiet, everybody going on their normal business. The only difference was the blackout. But, no, everybody went about their normal business. The phoney war stopped of course with the episode of Dunkirk and then the day bombing and then into night bombing by the Nazis, but the phoney war was phoney. Everybody went about their normal business.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have when the war, what kind of rations did you have when the war started?
BH: I really don’t know in a sense because I wasn’t politicised in any sense, I knew we had to fight Germany and I wasn’t really fearful or anything like that at all. My parents were worried ‘cause they knew what could happen that’s why I suppose being a bit thick it didn’t worry me but I mean fourteen year old what do you know? Yeah, but I know the phoney war and it was phoney, as I say, until after Dunkirk.
TO: And there were people, were your parents worried that Hitler would invade? Were you worried that Hitler would invade?
BH: I wasn’t worried, wasn’t worried at all, but I knew if they did and I knew their reputation as far as Jewish people concerned, right, where could you go? Into the hills, Wales, Scotland or anywhere like that? ‘Cause there was nowhere else to go. So we were in it, and fight. That’s it.
TO: And do you remember what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: What kind of what?
TO: Food you had, what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: Food?
TO: Yes.
BH: Well, my mother was the innovative and it was mostly vegetable stuff and little bits of chicken, ration meat and things like that, but she probably went without herself, lots of vegetable soups, vegetables, home grown vegetables, she kept chickens for eggs and even when we had visitors she found something, you know, to make a meal with, so nothing elaborate, I mean, cakes, we had home-made cakes, chocolate was, couldn’t get hold of chocolate, things like that. Meat of course was rationed and the ration books, [unclear] but she made do, like most women and housewives in those days they made do. Comes the occasion, comes the person.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
BH: Brilliant, could do with him again. I wish he would be reincarnated. Man of the moment. Didn’t think much of him after the war, he’d become a real Tory after the war but then again after the war there’s a great movement for Labour. People have had enough, I mean, people were returning from the forces so right, we’re not lackeys anymore, might be on better things. So, his speech as far as communism is concerned killed him politically but as a war leader second to none.
TO: Did you listen to his speeches much?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: What in particular did you like about him as a war leader? What, what, what in particular did you like about him as a war leader?
BH: He hated Germans.
TO: You already told me about the first day of the Blitz. Do you remember, are there any other days of the Blitz that stand out to you particularly?
BH: Yes, as I explained, the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Yeah, yeah.
BH: We were in the cinema, me and my brother. And when we came out, there was rubble all over the place, houses had been knocked down, something, so that was the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Do you remember other days of the Blitz?
BH: No, we just took it in our stride, went to work as normal. We used to get on the tram at seven o’clock in the morning to get to this so-called apprenticeship by eight o’clock. I was fourteen, I was working five and a half days a week, guess how much for?
TO: I don’t know.
BH: In out of thirty seven and a half p a week. I can remember my first wage packet bringing it home, and my mother pinned it on the curtain, it was [file missing] six pence for five and a half days work. No allowances for my age, so thirty seven and half p in today’s terms.
TO: How did the people behave during the Blitz would you say?
BH: All as one, helped one another, didn’t see any general fear whatsoever, I mean the patriotism was great. People helped one another. I remember when the night bombing started at five o’clock every day, people used to pack up stuff and we used to go to a communal bomb shelter, just across where we used to live and then eventually we want back to the Anderson but the first, pack up, be there by five o’clock, come out by six o’clock next morning amongst the rubble, hopefully your house was still intact.
TO: Did you ever see anyone behave badly during the Blitz?
BH: No, no, no, not at all.
TO: Was there a lot of bomb damage near where you lived?
BH: Yes, because the Forest Gate is not far from the docks and the first day of the Blitz was the whole dock area because the pool of London was the great entry into Great Britain, England and all the shipping used to go in there anyway. Most of the bombing in the surrounding areas but when they started bombing civilians that was another matter.
TO: And did you ever watch any of the dogfights that were going on, did ever you watch any of the dogfights that were going on?
BH: Yes we used to watch them coming over because we, actually we knew when raids were about because the balloons used to go off and they stationed all around us, there is a place called Wanstead Flats not far behind us where ack-ack guns were on and the, the balloons used to go up, to deter low flying, but the whole mixture of things really but I remember when, they brought in, like rocket fire, the ack-ack and everybody cheered because it used to be a one-off shell [mocks the sounds of gunfire] and then they brought in these, like rockets with massive, right, and everybody stood and cheered, at last we’re doing something, rather than the old pop-pop.
TO: Could you hear the anti-aircraft guns firing?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah. In Forest Gate as I say about two miles behind us an area called Wanstead Flats which is part of the Green Belt and the ack-ack were on there.
TO: Did it, did it feel encouraging to know that the German bombers were being fired at?
BH: Oh, absolutely, yeah. But don’t forget the Luftwaffe was really indiscriminate, I mean, even today you know, people say about Dresden, but what about Coventry, Rotterdam, every city in the UK, Bristol, Plymouth, London, they didn’t care.
TO: And do you think France let Britain down in the war? Do you think France let Britain down?
BH: Well the trouble with France, they had the Maginot Line, didn’t they, and it was facing the wrong way, so that was a big mistake. Vichy France of course was fascist, so, as an ally, mediocre but not impressed with them.
TO: And so, when exactly, what year of the war did you join the RAF?
BH: 1943. I went in April 1943, just before my eighteenth birthday.
TO: And how did you come to be a rear gunner?
BH: Ah, as I said, I went in Cardington and came out as PNB graded, so, I, when I went, was called to ITW, Initial Training Wing, which was in Newquay and that’s a three month’s course which in peacetime is three years, so it’s condensed from three years, I did there for three months and from there I was sent to Elementary Flying Training School in Derby, which [unclear] factories on it now in a place called Burnaston. Unfortunately I had a Tiger Moth I was as others on Tiger Moths for a while and the weather was so bad I couldn’t get my flying hours in so to go solo but they didn’t determine the fact that so from there we were sent to Heaton Park. Now Heaton Park was a holding centre for aircrew to go to the Empire, you’ve heard about this, to the Empire Training Scheme and ‘cause it was near the Manchester ship canal as well. So we were stuck there for a while and we waited and waited and three of us went to the CO and said, ‘you know, what’s the problem?’ In a nice way. We said ‘there’s a hold up and we don’t know when you’ll be going’ so we said ‘what’s the quickest way getting to the war?’ He said, ‘go as gunners’, so we did. Others went, sent, who decided to remuster in the navy and that’s how I’ve become a gunner. So you become a rear gunner is because when you go to OTU, Operational Training Wing, which was Hixon, a place called Hixon in Staffordshire, which is on Wellingtons, then you crew up together and then you all meet up, either Australian pilots, Pete and we all met up and the other guy, there was the other gunner, he said, ‘I don’t want to be a rear gunner’, so I said ‘Okay, I’ll do it, it’s fine’, that was it.
TO: And could you have been a pilot? Could you have become a pilot?
BH: I could’ve, well if I’d stayed on, I’d have become a pilot, I’ve gone overseas but I’d have missed the war. As another guy did say, I met him later on, but he got his wings but he missed the war. That wasn’t the purpose, the purpose was to go and kill Germans.
TO: And so what was the first bomber that you flew in on as a rear gunner?
BH: Well there again, we were, as a crew, we go to, from Wellingtons, we’re six of us, go to a heavy conversion unit onto Lancasters, which is a place called Woolfox Lodge between Stamford and Grantham and you pick up a flight engineer. And the flight engineer, he’d got his wings but they didn’t want him as a pilot so they made them flight engineers. And then we, with various things of getting to know your Lancaster and one thing and the other, we didn’t get to the squadron till late which was in Mildenhall and then we was, we were sent on to various things, they put us on some secretive work and even in OTU the other guys would tell you we used to go out on Window dropping, a diversion raids, save the main forces going that way, we would go that way to get the Luftwaffe up in the air of the pundits, drop the Window, metal strips, as if the big force come, then come back and the other force would go through. So [unclear] they put us on secret [unclear] and testing one thing and the other, finally got onto Operation Manna. So that was my only operational, real operational side. Which was disappointing in a way. But we had to obey orders, didn’t we?
TO: And did you ever wish that you were anything other than a gunner?
BH: Well, as I say, I went as a gunner because I wanted to get in the war but my aim was become a pilot or navigator or bomb aimer, the PNB, that was my aim. But as circumstances would show, as I said, I missed the war, probably gone to Australia, to Canada, Texas or South Africa. But as it happens, when the war ended, we were earmarked to go to California as a crew to convert onto Liberators for the Far East but the [unclear] said, no we want the boys to go home. So the whole crew was split up and that was in August 1945.
TO: And what did your relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
BH: Oh, quite proud in a way. My mother was concerned ‘cause I remember going home with all my kit ‘cause we’d be going from one station to another and she spotted my helmet, oxygen mask to the top so she had a little cry but they were concerned, rightly so, I suppose really.
TO: And how did you feel when you first heard that the RAF had started bombing Germany?
BH: Elated. Couldn’t get in there quick enough to help them do it.
TO: How long did your training last in total?
BH: Our training, well the training started right from 1943 right through to ‘45. I think I joined the 62 Squadron in March ’45 as I said, they sent us on various things and one thing and the other.
TO: And were you on board Lancaster bombers?
BH: Yes.
TO: What were the conditions like on board the Lancaster?
BH: Better than the Wellington, actually I flew Tiger Moths, Harfords, Wellingtons, Lancaster and of course, yeah, the Tiger Moth, which is the nicest plane I’ve ever been in, or ever flew in. There there was if you were coming down the landing, the instructor used to say, watch the grass is grass then cut back [unclear] head over the side watching, but that was flying, that’s different, that only got you into next grade but it wasn’t pleasant especially when you were flying at height when icicles were forming on your oxygen mask, you had to break them off, we had the heating closing as well.
TO: Was it colder in the gun positions than in the main cockpit?
BH: Very tight, conditions were very, in the turret, the rear turret, cramped, very cramped, but then, you know, you’re in it, you’re in it, and that was it.
TO: Did you feel glad when you started going on missions over Germany?
BH: I didn’t really go on missions over Germany. They got us on all the experimental and secret stuff and then finally got onto Operation Manna, which we dropped food, have you heard of it? Obviously, so no need to go into that.
TO: Well, No, actually, if you can explain it but.
BH: We dropped, it’s three hundred feet, the old German airfield Epinburgh and after that we formed the Manna Association. Which I eventually finished up as secretary and treasurer. Now of about forty, forty five of us, is six left now.
TO: And, did you ever, did you have to fire the guns in training?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. And tested the guns coming over to Holland over the North Sea, test them just in case but yeah, we had to fire drogues. In fact when I was, when the war was over I was sent to Italy and I joined the Centododici Squadron, this is 112, Sharks Squadron, they had sharks under the cowling and I used to fly with the air craft towing a drogue so they could fire at it, hoping that they would fire at the drogue and not at me, so, so that was alright but a bit of fun, but can I tell you an interesting story though? In 1945 the squadron was broken down, broken up and everybody went their different ways and were all made redundant and that was in ’45. So 36 years later this guy turned out to be a great friend with it, is Ted Livingstone and another guy, Phil Irvin, decided to put an advert in all, like the fly, all the journals for aircrew who would be interested in going to see the dropping sites in Holland? It cost a hundred pounds and get the coach from Graves End. So I said to my wife at the time, would you like to do it? Yeah. So, put my name down for it. Now I had my own business in those days and I’d been to an exhibition and I got home rather late, my wife said to me, you had a phone call, I think it’s the guy that’s organizing the trip to Holland. So I said, yeah, what’s his name? She said, Hallem. I said, Arthur Hallem? My own navigator. Anyway left his phone call and of course got on to him, chatted and he was going, right, with his wife. And we chatted, and during the course of the conversation, I said, he was articled clerk, I said, did you carry on with your accountancy? He did, yes, I am now the director of Wickbrits pension fund and I said, in Chiswell Street? And when I said in Chiswell Street, my wife said, Arthur Hallem? I’ve been dealing with him for years in the Abbey National round the corner in City Road what do you think of that?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Pardon?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Yeah. ‘Cause your shells used to drop off the side, you spew out anyway. But also in the training for gunnery you had to put a gun together blindfolded. I don’t know if any of the guys have told you that, yeah, during the training, you had to be blindfolded and then put the guns together, in case you had a stoppage or something like that while you’re out flying so it’s dark, it’s black, can’t put a light on, so you had to do in the darkness, take the bridgehead out, clear it, put it back in.
TO: Do you think it was hard to learn that?
BH: To be honest no and I’m not being snobbish in any way when a few of us came from our previous training, the guys up in Morpeth it was, the instructors had a bet that we [unclear] we would beat everybody and we did. Not because it’s snobbish or anything but we knew our way around so as I said [unclear] I’m not degrading the other guys in any way whatsoever but anyway they had a bet and they won.
TO: And what was your, I think I’ve already asked you this but what was your, was the Tiger Moth your favourite aircraft to fly in? What was your favourite aircraft to fly in?
BH: Tiger Moth, oh yeah.
TO: And were there any planes you flew in that were, that weren’t very reliable?
BH: There was what?
TO: Were all the planes that you flew in reliable?
BH: Yeah, expect the Wellington. ‘Cause Wellington was, the OTU operational training unit and we used to have in it Gee for navigation and I used to pop out and help the navigator, Arthur used to, I used to do the Gee and everything else, and we lost the Gee, and we got lost and we were in cloud and the aircraft started to vibrate violently so we had a discussion whether we should pop out or not, ‘cause we didn’t know where we were, anyway decided to leave and when we got back to base we went to the hangar, the chief engineer said, said to us, you had one minute before the port engine blew up. So we were rather lucky. So the whole aircraft was vibrating.
TO: So, did you have to bale out then?
BH: No, we did considered it but we didn’t know where we were, so we are sticking out, so eventually the weather cleared and we got down and it was a place called Gamston,’cause we’ve been moved there from Hixon and the chief engineer when we went to the hangar the next morning to see what’s the problem he said you had one minute before that engine blew up, in his opinion. So we considered it a lucky escape.
TO: Did Wellington engines have a reputation for doing that?
BH: Yeah, they were Bristol radials but as a [file missing] Merlin [unclear] different proposition altogether but of all end like anybody else the Lancaster was the favourite aircraft.
TO: Were the guns different on as Lancaster to another aircraft?
BH: No, 303s, the mid upper had two guns, is it alright?
TO: Yes
BH: The mid upper had two guns, as you know, the rear turret had four, later in they brought in 2.5s because the 303 only had a range. And the Luftwaffe knew it, if they stood off, right, the 303 were going then would start dropping, didn’t have the range until they bought the .5 which the Americans had, which was a different thing altogether and that’s why they introduced corkscrew, have you heard about the corkscrew? Yeah, that was violent.
TO: Did you have to practice the corkscrew?
BH: Yeah. That’s one of the things that we had to do on 622, they brought us in a new sight, gun sight, and it was like a square like that oblong, and there would be crystals and you had to recognize the aircraft like Messerschmitt and you set that in and if you got the aircraft in those crystals you couldn’t miss so we had to do an exercise with a mark 8 Spitfire and he did his attack and I got a hundred percent hits by then. My mid upper he didn’t want to do it so I did his and he got ninety-nine percent and the whole thing went to Air Ministry but we also did a corkscrew now a corkscrew, I don’t know if they told, how we get into it and why, I mean you just, an attacking aircraft who lay off you and he put your speed in and if he is on the starboard side which is [pause] to the right of the aircraft, right, so we called our pilot Pete, the corkscrew starboard so he’s got his wheel like that ready and as the aircraft comes in, he’s got to come in like that, and he’s got to come under the back he said, corkscrew go and he goes [mimics the noise of incoming aircraft] down like that and up again and then down again and his stomach comes up here, goes down there, good fun really.
TO: Was anyone aboard the plane actually sick, by those manoeuvres?
BH: No. Fortunately.
TO: And do you think the guns of a Lancaster would have been enough to take down a fighter?
BH: Oh yeah, if they got in range, as I say, the 303, as the other guys will tell you, the only, limited in range, they would drop down and the Luftwaffe knew that.
TO: And were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: I don’t think so but towards the end of the war they did have intruders. I don’t know if you were told about that. The Focke Wulf 190 used to follow aircraft back and as soon as you got in landing position, what they called funnel, there you’re lined up, your undercarriage is down, your flaps are down and you are more air worthy, you’re more or less, your air speed is down and it happened to where I was in Woolfox Lodge one of guys got shot down because they used to come in, follow the aircraft and while you’re in that position they were vulnerable and shoot them down. In fact to this day they haven’t found the air gunner, the rear gunner, so we used to get the signal to be sent out over the North Sea, Irish Sea, all clear but then that was towards the end of the war and it claimed quite a few victims, so.
TO: As a, sorry, as a rear gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position? As a gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position?
BH: Yes. Because I explain the line of attack would be, they would lay off, turn in and come round like that and then
TO: Come.
BH: Come to the rear so the rear gunner was really the first form of defence and the first to receive attack. As soon as they introduced these Dorniers with guns they called firing from underneath, I don’t know if you were told about that, right, they had these Dorniers and they were equipped with a gun who used to get under the aircraft and fire upwards, couldn’t see them until you exploded.
TO: And what kind of bombs would a Lancaster carry?
BH: Oh, the big ones. Yeah, sit [?] incendiaries, thousand pounders. And also the big one. It takes up the whole of the bomb bay.
TO: And what did you think of RAF leaders, like Arthur Harris?
BH: If anybody started on me outside, I’ll tell my uncle of you. But he’s brilliant and he liked his aircrew. He went to South Africa because he was contemptuous of the government for not demobbing the aircrew, made us all redundant. And that’s a story in itself, stupid. As I say, when the squadron broke up, we made redundant, send up to a place called Burn, up in Yorkshire, an old ex airfield here and are you ok for time?
TO: I’m fine. I’m just checking there be, yeah, I’m just checking the [unclear].
BH: And I get there, masses of ex aircrew walking about doing nothing and what it was it went there before a panel and you had three choices of a trade: radar wireless, wireless mechanic, driver or radar operator. So, and you got all ex aircrew sitting back, what do you want to do Bernie? Sort of thing. I said, ‘well, I’ll go as a radar wireless mechanic’, ‘nah, you don’t want to go, it’s a year’s course, you will be out by then’, so then, ‘I’ll learn to drive’, ‘No, no one is gonna teach you to drive, you’ll be able to, you go as a radar operator’, so ok fine. In the meantime I was sent to a place as a clerk. So they got that all wrong until I said ‘I’m not a clerk, I’m going as a radar operator’. So finally they realised because when I reported to St John’s Wood, when I first went in, there’s another guy named Harris and he starts three numbers 168 same as mine, but his other numbers were different, so they got him mixed up with me ‘cause they didn’t look any further until they realised their mistake. So that was that, so eventually after much arguments I was, ok go down to in Wiltshire and you will become trained as an operator. So about twelve or sixteen ex aircrew we’re trained as radar operators, yeah, for six months. When we finished the course, the signal came from the Air Ministry, all the ex air crew that had taken the radar operators are now redundant, report back to Burn. So we got back to Burn, said ‘what happened?’ I said, ‘I want to learn to drive’, ‘ok we’ll teach you to drive’. So that was that.
TO: And what did you think of other RAF leaders? What did you think of RAF’s general leaders?
BH: In general, loved it. You see, the pysco is this, with aircrew, all volunteers, no one conscripted, they all had the same state of mind, they all wanted to fly and kill Germans. So we had all that in common and air crew is like a big family even today. Even with so few of us left. Silly contact, so, although it was a war it was a great experience, [unclear] my teams.
TO: Were there any ever occasions where weather at your airfields damaged the aircraft?
BH: No. The only laughable thing is that the weather, one briefing we had at OTU we head to normal briefings what you gonna do and end of which is the met man, I can see him now, tall man, long neck, big Adam’s apple, when he’s going all through the [unclear] and he says, ‘you got five tenths cloud’ and all that, but we said ‘it’s raining outside’ , he said ‘not according to my map it’s not’, and it was, it was bucketing down, not according to my map, he said, and that’s true.
TO: And what kind of information would you be given at the briefings?
BH: On a normal target, what you got to do, courses, the courses, navigation, radio codes, gunnery, the whole lot and then finish up with the met report.
TO: What kind of gunnery would you be, what kind of gunnery would they cover at the briefing?
BH: What kinds of what?
TO: What aspects of gunnery would they cover at the briefings?
BH: Just to make sure that your guns are ok, your belts are ok, the gun belts ‘cause they run on the side and your gun is fully charged and everything else. And also the height you’ll be flying at, in most cases more than about ten to fifteen thousand feet, then up to twenty thousand.
TO: Did you bring any rations with you aboard the bomber?
BH: Yeah. There was chocolate of course, gum, I think the gum, I’m not sure, certainly chocolate, apple, I think, what they called the flying breakfast you had to have a pint of milk, there’s an urn of milk on the side, and you had your flying breakfast going and coming back whatever you did. Yeah, there was a chocolate, I don’t remember any of the others ‘cause I don’t think I used it. I did use the chocolate once, it was like a block of ice, it was frozen, nearly knocked my teeth out. So I used to have it, everybody had a flying ration.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have at the air bases?
BH: Very good, very good, at Heaton Park, where we were waiting to go abroad, they had a most brilliant chef there and he made trifles every Sunday, now if I was out on the site I would make sure I go back, he was brilliant, but the food was good.
TO: Did you have more in the air forces food than as a civilian?
BH: Then what?
TO: Than as a civilian?
BH: Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.
TO: And do you remember, sorry I’m going back slightly but, do you remember how you felt when the RAF won the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yeah, elated. Absolutely, that was a turning point of the war. But that’s set off the Blitz, then he resorted to air bombardments by the Luftwaffe and when he was beaten in that, in the Battle of Britain, he resorted to night flying, bombing.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the attack on the Ruhr Dams?
BH: Yeah, 617 Squadron. Yeah, that was May 16th, 17th, and May the 17th was my 20th birthday. So, I remember it well.
TO: Was it widely reported in the press?
BH: Mh?
TO: Was the attack on the dams widely reported in the press?
BH: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. See, don’t forget, the Battle of Britain was the only real victory that we had, I mean, the desert warfare was going backwards and forwards with Rommel, so that was the only real victory and the bombing of Germany was applauded because we’d had enough, we, it was a turning point, it was, it was as if the Germans were invincible, that was a feeling, but when we had these victories, they weren’t invincible, they realized we could do something about it.
TO: Did they report much about the campaign in North Africa in the papers?
BH: Well, the campaign in North Africa, was, until Montgomery came on the scene was backwards and forwards, Rommel came, forced the British back, [unclear] finished up outside Cairo, at El Alamein and he stood his ground there and he beat Rommel but a lot of people don’t know if you get into modern history of the Middle East, that Sadat who was president, became president of Egypt, plotted with the Arabs to attack Montgomery from the rear to help the Germans and he was arrested by the British, yeah. I won’t go into modern history about the Arabs or anything else, but yeah, he plotted as the others, the Mahdi of Jerusalem went to Berlin so Montgomery had a lot against him but he fought through and he’s held at El Alamein and that was a good victory there. And that was another turning point of the war but you couldn’t rely on the Arabs nor could you today, I have to say, but anyway, scrub that. But yes, so, Battle of Britain and El Alamein, the bombing of Germany. Dresden, right, you take Dresden, Canon Collins who was anti, against the atom bomb and everything else CND he used to go around preaching to aircrew not to bomb Germany and he was allowed to do it for some reason. However, that’s another story, but if you take Dresden with Stalin who was advancing, Dresden was no longer an open city, before that they were making gun sites as well, had a big industry in gun, opticians and, Stalin said to Truman at that time and Churchill that Dresden, the troops, German troops are massing in Dresden and I want them seen to, I want them cleared, so both the Americans, us, the RAF, bombed Dresden. Dresden was unfortunate but there was twenty five thousand casualties, Goebbels put another nought on the ending, it made two hundred and fifty thousand but Dresden was needed because Stalin wanted it, it was in the way of his troops to get into East Germany so no matter what anybody said about Dresden, I will always say Dresden was needed unfortunate. You tell me about Coventry, you tell me about Rotterdam, you tell me about Bristol, Southampton, Bristol, you tell me about those cities, don’t tell me, don’t talk to me about Dresden.
TO: And then, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
BH: Never flew one [laughs]. Well, they served their purpose, the Heinkel was the most hated, the 101, no 111, no 101, because they used to desynchronize their engines, whether they did that to avoid radar or not but you could always tell them, the Heinkel 11, they desynchronized [mimics the sound of engines] so that was a horrible sound. The 109s they were ok, the Focke-Wulf was alright and then they brought in the jet towards the end of the war, the Messerschmitt jet, yeah, fighter aircraft, [unclear] aircraft.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah, especially the WAAFs. Yes, yeah, always had contact with the ground crew, and they’d always be at the end of the runway when you’re taking off.
TO: Did they see you, were they cheering at you?
BH: Yeah. [unclear] together two fingers back.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the first thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
BH: No, I wasn’t involved in it.
TO: But did they report it?
BH: Yeah, they’re good [?]. Actually they brought in aircraft from OTUs, Wellingtons as well, from OTUs and heavy conversion units, they brought everybody in, it was unlucky not to be called. Took tinsel instead. Window.
TO: And when was Window first developed?
BH: I think by Barnes Wallis, he designed the Wellington, I think it was one of his ideas. He just put it down the chute, the flare chute, just bundled it down. And of course, the Germans on their radar, swamped their radar.
TO: And you mentioned sometimes you went on these, was it secret operations or special operations? You said you went on operations to deploy Window as a decoy?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Would you deploy it around the North Sea?
BH: Yeah, I was [file missing] over the North Sea, yeah. The idea was if the main bomber, the main route was through Holland, from the East Coast to Holland. So, if a main group was going, say, across The Hague, we would go with the Window south of that because the German fighter group were patrolling round [unclear] so if they were sent off that way to find us with the Window, they used up their fuel so they had to come back to refuel and in the meantime the main forces got through. Coming back was a different story of course but the main force had got through.
TO: What do you think of the American aircraft of the war?
BH: Was a big aircraft with a little bomb bay. Didn’t have much to do with them really. I mean Mildenhall 3 Group where I was in, I was surrounded by the Americans, Norfolk and all around that. And the only thing against them was that, when they took off, they wouldn’t go over the coast until they got to their operational height and then they went, so if we had a [unclear] right, we got this humming guide on all the time and once they got their operational height, then their fighter escort would go off, and then off they would go, so we called them as a bloody nuisance. But they are good guys, I mean, they took a hammering, they really did. Their graves, memorial in Cambridge, massive, the graveyards there, massive memorial. Took a hell of a pounding.
TO: Did you, were you ever escorted by American fighters?
BH: No. No.
TO: Or Spitfires at all?
BH: No. The only time had contact with a Spitfire was that one they tested the side.
TO: Did you ever, did airfields ever run low on supplies like fuel or bombs?
BH: The airfields yeah, bomb dumps and fuel dumps, yeah. Yeah, self-contained, yeah.
TO: And did they ever run low on supplies?
BH: No, well planned. It was mostly worked by the Royal Army Service Corps. It was the same Royal Army Service Corps bloated our aircraft with food for Holland. Stacking up the bomb bay.
TO: Can you tell me how Operation Manna worked?
BH: Worked? I’ll tell you how it came about and worked. Yeah.
BH: Operation Market Garden, Arnhem was unfortunately a disaster. The idea was to shorten the war and go through [unclear] backed by the Germans. The Reichsmaster, it was a Hungarian, Austrian Nazi commander in Holland by the name of Arthur Seyss-Inquart was so incensed that he stopped all food coming into Western Holland from the agriculture part of Holland itself. Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard were here in England, in the UK, in exile and in January 1944 she called the railway workers to go on strike in Holland. Well this Nazi Reichmaster in retaliation ordered the sea locks to be broken, flooding Western Holland from Utrecht right round to The Hague. So, the dykes were broken and it was flooded. There was a population of three million nine hundred thousand in that area and this is a fact ‘cause I gave a talk on it to 622 Squadron which was reformed in Brize Norton in May, anyway. So out of three million nine hundred thousand, eventually twenty thousand died of starvation and malnutrition was rife, people were starving, so Queen Juliana appealed to Churchill and Truman and Eisenhower. Eisenhower said, they will have to wait, he is not committing his troops, while there are six hundred thousand Germans in Western Holland. Anyway, so Queen Juliana said, finally Eisenhower said, [unclear] find a way of delivering food. And he brought in Air Commodore Andrew Geddes, who was on tactical air force in main headquarters of the Allies, so cut a long story forward, he was met Bedell Smit and Bedell Smith to him, we have a situation, we got people starving and they have to be supplied by food by air. You devise a plan and you come and tell back and tell me what you gonna do. So, apparently, Andrew Geddes went away with others to tactical air force and he devised a plan for dropping food in certain areas in Western Holland by air incorporating the squadrons of Lancasters and also Pathfinders and he got hold of this Nazi [unclear] and in a school called, they met in a school called [unclear] and they explained the plan. The Germans didn’t like it, he said, not the case of you liking it, it’s what we’re gonna do. And if you interfere in any way in what we gonna do, you’ll be arrested as a war criminal. So, on April 29th, the 28th it started but the weather was too bad, so on the 29th of April Operation Manna started without the agreement being signed until the next day. And quite legally they could’ve been shot down and we’re going three hundred feet, hundred meters, something like that, we did a designated area, if anybody went outside that area they’d be warned by red flares and shot at and shot down. Anyway, so, it went off without incident and that was the start of Manna and it went from April the 29th to May the 8th. The Americans came in, they called it Chowhound, the next day and they finished on May the 7th. So in a total there was twelve thousand tons of food dropped overall, the RAF dropped seven thousand and the Yanks dropped four thousand. And to this day in Holland it’s taught, as history, by survivors and when we’ve been back there before we’ve been invited back, as I say, in 1981, we went in 1982 on that first trip, we were overwhelmed, we didn’t realise, people used to come up to us and still do when we go there, thank you for saving my life, thank you for saving my parents life, children are growing, it’s very touching. And that’s how it came about.
TO: And what do you remember the most when you were participating in Operation Manna?
BH: But we went in, I think about two or three thousand feet and dropped to three hundred when we got over to Holland. My first, I’m the last to see anything ‘cause I’m at the back, there’s this boy on his bicycle, on top of the dyke, flooded all around, astride his bicycle, waving a Union Jack and a Dutch tricolour, right and we were flying in just below the roof of a hospital, they were all waving sheets and God knows what else. And we went between The Hague and Rotterdam to drop at Eppinburgh and straight out again. But we could see people waving, they were warned to keep away, one guy whose pony rushed onto the dropping field, got hit by a sack of potatoes and that killed him. But other thing and the Germans were told that if they touched the food in any way they will be arrested as war criminals but this Nazi, he was eventually tried and hanged as a war criminal because not only was he involved in Holland, he followed the German army through the occupied areas organising transportations and everything else, he was a real, real Nazi and he was strung up.
TO: Is there anything else you remember in particular about Operation Manna, which sticks out to you?
BH: There is a guy named Hans Onderwater also a [unclear] historian, he wrote a book called Manna Chowhound, still very friends with him, right, and he organised a hell of a lot, what we, with the Manna Association, what we used to do, together with Americans, they used to come over here, we meet up in Lincoln, right, on the weekend, and we had four coachloads to go to various, entertained by various airfields the RAF Coningsby, Scampton, Waddington, places like that, and they used to, the fifth year we’d go to Holland, and boy! We didn’t know where were going and we were hosted all over the country, memorials, dining, visiting, schools, lectures, concerts, incredible, absolutely incredible.
TO: And the food supplies that you had on board the plane, were they, did they have parachutes attached to them?
BH: No, just dropped out the bomb bay. Just open the bomb bay, they’d fall down. The Pathfinders went in first who did the markers because they were told, the Dutch were told, the aircraft would be coming in and dropping red markers and then after that on their radios ‘cause they were all hidden, radios were all hidden, [unclear] anyway, the aircraft are leaving England bringing you food and of course all out on the streets waiting for the aircraft.
TO: Was there anyone that you know of who actually got fired at during Operation Manna?
BH: Yeah, one guy got a bullet through his foot because some irate Germans, we followed the guns, the anti tank guns, they were following us, could see that clearly and I tracked them as well, but of course we were vulnerable at that height, there were a few rifle shots, one guy got a bullet through his foot, and you could see that, that sort of things that were given there [emphasis: sound of papers rustling] [unclear] in there, a card from Prince Bernhard, he was our, he was our president, and that’s a card from from Bernhard when Queen Wilhelmina died I sent a card, a condolence card, got load of medals in there, as the other guys from Manna. Now, there is only six of us left and the guy, Bob Goodman, he was the leader of Chowhound, he died this March. So, like all good things come to an end, don’t they.
TO: When Operation Manna began, and you had the briefings,
BH: Yeah.
TO: Were you or anyone else surprised when you heard you would be dropping food?
BH: Not surprised, more of an adventure I think. I mean, it was humanitarian. No, it was a surprise, something we wanted to do and like all operations, when you go for briefing, the whole airfield is closed down, the gates are closed, RAF police on the doors, it’s a lockdown. You only go and get your gear and get your breakfast and go.
TO: Did it feel strange to have, to be carrying food rather than weaponry?
BH: Well we knew that, why we were doing it, I mean, three million nine hundred thousand people, I mean we got photographs of kids [unclear] walking about with large spoons, so when they went by these areas where the, kitchens, common kitchens, they’d scrape out the bottom of the urn, we got photographs of kids dying in the streets.
TO: Do you think Operation Manna could have been launched sooner than it was?
BH: I think it was in a timescale it should have done. Because they did know the seriousness after the what happened to, after Arnhem and this Nazi what he would do. He was rightly strung up as well anyway.
TO: And did you hear, was there much reporting on what was happening on the Russian front?
BH: Yeah, oh yeah. Well the Russians, you know, they took quite a beating until they got to Stalingrad, they could have gone, if they had gone past Stalingrad it would have been another story, but the winter of all things killed them, hope, unfortunately and the Russians, I mean, their hatred of the Germans, you couldn’t describe it, so, yeah, right, that’s why there was a great Communist movement in this country as well, because Communism as against, never mind what Stalin did with Holland he made the deal in ’39 didn’t he? With him, but regardless of all that, the British public could see the only real enemy and allies, as far as we were concerned, allies were the Russians. If it wasn’t for the Russians, the Germans would have been here. There’s no doubt about it.
TO: And when did you or when did the news of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: What?
TO: News of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: Well apparently, well being Jewish I know [unclear], we knew there was concentration camps and what the Germans did before the war with Jews and everything, with the refugees and everything coming over and telling their stories of what was happening. But apparently the leaders of the Jews in Germany were begging for the Allies to bomb the [unclear], but we were, with Enigma, Churchill’s excuse was we know but we, we don’t want the Germans to know that we have Enigma, that we’ve been broken their code, that was his excuse. There was one flaw, they were begging to be bombed because what was happening. But he didn’t want the Germans to know that we knew all about Enigma. So his excuse was no, if we know about concentration camps we would know their secrets. But they took no notice of what was coming out through the Jewish movement, with the concentration camps. Only it wasn’t only Jews, yeah, there’s the only fly in the ointment.
TO: And when did you personally first hear of the Holocaust?
BH: Not until the war ended actually.
TO: And what was your rank when you were in the air force?
BH: Flight sergeant.
TO: Flight sergeant.
BH: I was just coming up to warrant officer.
TO: And were you actually ever on bombing missions or was Operation Manna your first proper
BH: Operation Manna was only one, yeah. As I say, we were involved in experimental stuff.
TO: Did you ever experiment with stuff that turned out not to work? Did you ever experiment with equipment that didn’t work?
BH: No, no, the only thing we were doing was with that gunsight and also we were experimenting with things, high level bombing as well. I’ve got in my log book high-level bombing, which certain things had to be done and navigational things but as a person who wanted to get in the war I still regret not having a good run at the Germans by getting in to bombing raids. But then the powers above gave the orders. Couldn’t go off on our own. Have you ever met a guy named Harry Irons?
TO: Harry [unclear]?
BH: Irons? Harry Irons?
TO: Irons, I think I’ve heard of him but I have not met him.
BH: Oh, he’s local, he lives not far [unclear], he’d done two tours as a rear gunner. I was with him on June the 4th.
TO: Yeah. Of this year?.
BH: Yeah.
TO: Does he live that far from here or?
BH: Mh?
TO: Does he live near here?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Maybe you can put me in touch with him later perhaps.
BH: You want, well, do you want to see him?
TO: Well, maybe, if he wants to talk.
BH: He wants to, yeah, I only, I haven’t got his phone number. I got his phone number but it’s all wrong.
TO: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ve got his address.
TO: Maybe I could send him a letter or something.
BH: Do you want the address?
TO: Well, we can sort that later. It’s fine.
BH; Yeah?
TO: We can sort it later. It’s fine.
BH: Ok.
TO: So, where would you keep the parachutes on board the plane?
BH: Just inside the fuselage, behind the turret. You had to open the turret doors, get the parachute, click it on, turn the parachute, the turret to the side, open the doors and fall out. But you had to get to your parachute first, because it was in the fuselage. And if you couldn’t open the doors, hard luck.
TO: Did they have a steep hatch [file missing]?
BH: Yeah, further up. Yeah.
TO: And were there any occasions where you were flying over Europe and you got lost?
BH: Only in the one I told you about. We were actually fired at over the, over Jersey, we were doing a trip over there, a sortie over there, Northern France, experimental and we were actually fired at and I see this [unclear] coming up, but it missed, as you can see.
TO: Was the fire anywhere near the plane or?
BH: Not, it was why they missed, they went away. Just watched it coming up, this flame.
TO: Did you, were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Yeah, night training yeah, most of my flying hours were at night.
TO: And how long would a mission tend to last?
BH: Well, it be anything, an hour, an hour and a half, if you are doing circuits and bumps it could be an hour, we say the circuits and landings, circuits and bumps we called them. But one and three quarters hours, something like that.
TO: Cool. And what was the procedure for a squadron’s aircraft to take off?
BH: Well that was controlled by airfield control. Would you like a drink?
TO: No thanks, I’m fine, my eyes are a bit sore. [unlcear]
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, I’m fine. Yes, so, do you remember what the procedure was for taking off?
BH: Yeah, first of all you went out to dispersal by the crew bus, then you, you got in your positions, everybody in, everything was tested, the ailerons, rudders, flaps, not the flaps but the, certainly the ailerons, then the engines were started up, first the hydraulics, I think was the port outer then the port [unclear] in [unclear] and so forth. Get them running up all ready, then you got the call from aircraft control and you taxied out. And you waited on the tarmac and then as you were called from the air control on the end of the runway, right, give you the green light, you just went round and off you go.
TO: And what about landing, what was the procedure for that?
BH: Same thing, they called it, what they called the funnel, you’re in, pilot called out ‘funnel funnel‘, and they’re calling and said, ‘you do a circuit of the airfield and you come in’ and then, landing in like that there, one after the other and they called that funnel. That’s when you’re most vulnerable, the flaps are down, undercarriage is down, you have slow airspeed and that’s when they took advantage with the intruders.
TO: Were landings and take offs ever nerve-racking at all?
BH: No, I loved them, it’s the best part of it, landing and taking off. Even now, with commercial aircraft, the best part.
TO: When you were flying, could you, were you always above cloud level or?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Or could you ever see the land below?
BH: Only when it’s what they called ten tenths but if it’s like this you couldn’t, probably the height of the clouds at the moment thirty, thirty five thousand feet so if you did it in twenty you could see, but as I say, most of it was at night and don’t forget blackout everywhere. So, it’s all done by navigation and Gee.
TO: And how did Gee work?
BH: It was a series of signals and it was like a small television screen and they had two bars running, one across there and one underneath it, with like “V”s on them, like that, and then as you match them up, you press another button, up come a map where you were, showing you exactly where you were. But that time we got lost somewhere over the Midlands so it didn’t work so we didn’t know where we were but yeah I used to enjoy doing that because when we knew we were quite safe I used to get out of the turret and help Arthur with his navigation ‘cause one of my pet subjects that was when we at ITW.
TO: Were you allowed to leave the turret or were you supposed to stay there?
BH: Unofficially. No once you’re in there, you’re supposed stay in there, but there you are.
TO: And how, how much, was it very noisy aboard the planes?
BH: Very noisy, drumming. A lot of guys suffered, I still have a bit of tinnutis, a lot of guys got pension for the tinnitus, the constant roar of the aircraft, the vibration as well.
TO: And did you, did you have radio sets to talk to each other?
BH: Intercom. They had what they call RT, radio transmission, which another funny story. Stan Fig [?], our radio operator, he could swear for twenty minutes without repeating the same word twice and at one time, we were coming back, on OT on Wellingtons, and we were in a circuit and down on the starboard side to me, which is the port side, ‘cause I’m in reverse to the pilot, I called up with his [unclear] ‘Pete there is someone trying to muscle in on the circuit’, right, on your port side, right, now before that he puts, he switches the RT on, asked for permission to land, now that goes everywhere. So Stan, he puts his head up then and he starts swearing about these guys trying to muscle in. When we got down in the crew bus, picked us up and then he went and picked the other crew up who were Canadians and they go, who is that so and so and so swearing at us? Pete the pilot forgot to switch off the RT, yeah, and it’s gone everywhere, the Germans must have thought it was a foreign language or code, when we, had to report to the air control right and the WAAF at the air control she had a fit with all the swearing and everything [laughs], so, everybody knew about it, right, so anyway we got roasted over that.
TO: And whenabouts did that occur? Do you know what year and month that occured?
BH: Ah, that was in ’43, ’44.
TO: And this was during a training mission, was it?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you when you were flying over them?
BH: No, that’s all blacked out.
TO: And did you hear about the D-Day invasion?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah, because when it happened when they said it was a delay in pilot training they sent us back to St John’s Wood where we originally, all the aircrews reported to St John’s Wood. My first day I reported to St John’s Wood to have an inspection in Lord’s, I dropped my trousers under the portrait of W.G. Grace and again, I’ll tell you what, a plate of oxtail soup and we were billeted in St John‘s’ Wood so we were sent back to St John’s Wood and while we were still there the D-Day was on. We saw the aircraft going over. So, I remember that very well. June the 6th 1944.
TO: Were those have been the airborne troops or bombers?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: So were they airborne troops?
BH: Yeah. Were going over London from all round, from the South Coast, Sterlings were taking the gliders.
TO: What do you think of the Sterling?
BH: I’ve never got in touch with it, it was older and all but 622 Squadron they had Sterlings at first ‘cause it was a peacetime build up, peacetime field which 622 was born out of C flight of 15 Squadron which now flies Typhoons chasing German, Russian bombers. And they reinformed, we reinformed in Brize Norton three years ago and that’s why I was invited three years ago and also in May this last, this May to go there to give a talk on Manna. That’s why it’s all there.
TO: Did they enjoy the talk?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Do you know of anyone or meet anyone who ever refused to go on bombing missions?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Couple of Jewish friends, Harry Irons, who I mentioned, he was a tailor, he went in as a gunner straight away and, yeah, a lot of guys from Manna, who were wing commanders, one was a group captain, and we were as one, there was no rank then but great guys. One was Des Butters [?], he was a pilot on Pathfinders so yeah. Another one, I know very well, friend as well, David Fellowes, he is still very active, goes round signing books and he’s older than me.
TO: Were there any other times where someone refused to go on a bombing raid?
BH: Well, the only contact I had with anything like that is our first navigator, who was married and he couldn’t take it anymore and in those days they called it Lack of Moral Fibre. Today you’d go and see a psychiatrist and you’re just whipped away, away, demoted, taken to a place like Christchurch or something like that and demoted him and they treated you like dirt, where it’s a mental condition, I mean, they just didn’t want anybody contaminated, so we had to have a new navigator, a bomb aimer, sorry, he was a bomb aimer, a new bomb aimer.
TO: Did they ever, did he ever talk about what, the problems he had?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did this man ever talk about the problems he’d faced?
BH: No. No. Kept it to himself and then suddenly it’s gone.
TO: What is your best memory of your time in the RAF?
BH: My best memory is after the war when I was sent to Italy and I was on a Squadron, Cento, 112 Squadron and flying in a harbour towing drogues and they had the wing had it’s own rest centre with a hotel, the place called Grado and they want somebody to run it ‘cause the guy was going home. So I volunteered, so all I had to do was go there, make sure it was run properly, make sure it had all the rations and everything else, saw that the staff got paid, got myself a big ‘Q’ time dinghy, go down on the beach. Go back for lunch, go back to the beach again and make sure everything was alright. So until the winter set in then I couldn’t do it anymore and came home in January 1947. But there was the best time in the RAF [laughs].
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what is your worst memory of your time in the RAF or of the war in general?
BH: The worst memory is the ones that I told you, when the aircraft was rattling and we didn’t know where we were. Everything else is taken in stride.
TO: What did you tend to do to keep up morale?
BH: Morale didn’t come into, as I said, we were all volunteers, we knew what we were in for, so we used to go drinking together as a crew when we had nights off, each one bought a round of half a pint , so that’s three and a half pints, twice, seven pints, so we used to roll back, go to somebody else’s aircraft and get a wick of their oxygen and go back to bed. And they probably did the same to us.
TO: How did the oxygen help?
BH: Well, it livened you up really, it sobered you up.
TO: Were there any occasions where you oxygen supplies froze up?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did your oxygen supplies ever freeze up?
BH: No, no. Not that I know of.
TO: And how did those heated jackets work that you mentioned?
BH: Very good, in fact they ruined my feet for a while. You had, first of all you had silk and wool underwear, vest, long pants right the way down to the, then you had the uniform. Then there was, as far as the gunners were concerned, there was this heated suit which plugged in, so you had slippers, heated slippers that plugged in and all connected, all the way up. Then, your flying suit on top of that, your gauntlets, inner gauntlet was a heated one and all studded to this inner suit and then of course, your, mae west and then your parachute harness on top of that, so you were really lumbering. They brought you at one time what they called the tailor’s suit, it was massive, I don’t know why they got it, we couldn’t get into the turret with it so we quickly discarded that. It was huge like, huge, you know, God knows, anyway it was a bad buy, called it the tailor’s suit. So, yes, we had a heated suit but the heated slippers created havoc with the sole of my feet, burnt them, and it took two or three years after I had come out of the air force to get it right and after that out of habit I still wear white socks.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war ended?
BH: Yeah, I was over Holland dropping food. It was the last flight and then the war was over. May the 8th 1945.
TO: And what kind of entertainment did you have at your airbases?
BH: Well, some of them had ENSA concerts but there was not on the base, you had to go outside, at Mildenhall there was a cinema in the town. Some places had ENSA, where the singers and dancers used to come, they would do a performance, some were horrible, sometimes the cinema. One had a cinema that had broke down, halfway through the film, with Cary Grant, don’t remember the title but anyway broke down and that was that so went to the pub but entertainment mostly go to the pub, local pub.
TO: Were there any particular songs that the RAF liked to sing?
BH: No, not really. We used to sing flying, flying fortresses, fly never so high, go round [unclear] in circles finally finishing on their own, up their own backsides, something like that. Well, we put a girl on a bar in a pub and the song is, this is your ankles, this is your kneecap, this is your and this is r, r, r, you know, all that palaver and the girls loved it. But apart from that, made our own entertainment.
TO: And on days when you were just stationed on the airbases, not on operations, could you hear the drone of other bombers flying around?
BH: Well, the Americans. Oh yeah, well at Mildenhall because they used to start four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning. ‘Cause they would totally fly in day, in daylight, which they could, you know, they were vulnerable, very vulnerable.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: Mh?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: I’m sorry.
TO: Do you think the war was worth it?
BH: It was essential. You wouldn’t be here today. Nor would I. It was essential. The biggest mistake was, when Hitler came to power, I think, Churchill warned, war was coming, nobody took him notice until finally 1938, ’36, the Spanish War, which was a rehearsal for the Germans, they should’ve start rearming then, ‘cause the writing was on the wall. But there were a lot of vested interests in this country like Lord Halifax at that time, who was, he wanted to negotiate with the Germans. Churchill sent him to America as an ambassador, he was a German lover and there were a few others in the arms industry as well, them German lovers, vested interests. So in 1936 the writing was on the wall. So, Churchill was the only one who could see it. And they called him a warmonger. But they say, comes the moment, comes the right man.
TO: And how do you feel about Germany today?
BH: The old generation I don’t want hear anything to do about. The new generation are different ‘cause they don’t want anything to do with their own teutonic ways of life, they’re youngsters, you can understand, they’re a great help to Israel, lot of Germans used to go to Israel, kibbutz and all that, I’ve been there, they’ve been there, right, and no, from what they doing I admire them but the only thing now is, I mean, now we got this exodus, well, I call it the exodus, Brexit, coming out of Europe, my opinion is that in time that Germany will be the dominant nation in Europe, who don’t like the French and the French don’t like them. I just hope [emphasis] that it all works out, we don’t get sucked into another war. Because the idea of a united Europe in the first place was to stop wars. So, I’m sad at the outcome. But as far as the Germans today, I admire them in a way, they’re doing well, very well. In part of course they got right wingers again, which has clouded the whole issue with the referendum, I mean immigration has clouded the whole issue, people can’t see further than, so I won’t go on to that. ‘Cause there is one man I blame, it’s the worst president at the wrong time, at the wrong time, Obama. You can edit this but I’ll tell you, when he said to the Syrians, yeah, that if you use chemical weapons on your population, that is a red line, and he’d become a puff, a puff of a pink line, he’d done nothing and that was the signal for them to do whatever they wanted to do. What general tells the enemy or, I’m not going to send an army in, there will be no boots on the ground and that caused what is happening now and that’s caused, who wants to leave their home really, and that’s caused a desperate refugee problem in Syria. I put it down to, the quicker he goes the better, he’s out anyway, so. That’s my opinion.
TO: And what do you think of Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
BH: I think it was the right one. I really do. With Afghan it’s been going on for years, when I mean the Russians and all they’re interested in doing there is killing one another and killing everybody else. I mean, it was going on before the First World War, our Bomber Harris used to fly biplanes, and they used to fly with I think it was a pot of gold ‘cause if they were captured, they gave it to the Afghanis, the tribesmen otherwise they cut their testicles off. So, that’s pre 1914. So that’s [unclear]. With Iraq that was a different story, yeah. The biggest mistake with Iraq when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, yeah, and Bush senior invaded, don’t forget Palestinian also, Palestinian terrorist also sided with and in they went into Kuwait as well, right, thought that was a good thing. But when George Bush senior and the Allies went in and pushed them out of Kuwait and on the road to Baghdad all the goodies said stop, you mustn’t do it, said stop, that created the next problem and the next problem was, who knew, he did have gas, he gassed his own people. Of course he had a secret weapon. All these do-gooders, yeah, what happened if they did have them? But the biggest mistake was and is, the Western world does not understand the hatred between the Sunni and the, oh God.
TO: The Shi’a. The Shi’a?
BH: Shi’a. They hate one another. And always will hate one another. They didn’t understand the enmity. So the Shi’a were the governing body in Iraq and the Sunnis hated the sight of them. ‘Cause you got Iran fostering them all up as well. But the bigger to say was they used to call the Foreign Office the camel brigade, Arab lovers ‘cause most of them used be educated in Lisbon, they don’t understand the hatred between the Shi’a and the Sunni and that will never go away. There will never be peace with them. That’s the biggest problem. Don’t blame Blair, blame his advisors who knew the Arab mind, they knew about Islam, they didn’t advise him properly. You go in, make sure you got a proper government. Don’t leave it to the Sunnis or the Shi’a. And that will go on.
TO: I think I pretty much asked all of my questions, so. Thank you so much, I really enjoyed.
BH: You are welcome. Do you want a cup of tea or something?
TO: Ah [file missing] So.
BH: Did the museum supply you with that?
TO: No, it’s my own.
BH: Really?
TO: I brought my so, I do film interviews. And, have you ever watched films about the war?
BH: Yeah.
TO: And what do you think of them?
BH: Yeah, quite good. Glorified, you know, made for the screen, a couple of, a few things they say makes me wince, but for instance pilots always have to be commissioned, right, but, in actual fact you could have a sergeant pilot and a squadron leader rear gunner, right, but films glorify, I mean, as far as a pilot is, ‘cause he’s, the officer he’s the only one to talk about, so. The best film I ever saw was “Journey Together”, where, it takes Richard Attenborough, when he was very young and somebody else, can’t remember his name, where they come together in the ITW and it goes through their course and Richard Attenborough, and then he’s gone overseas, and so is his friend, his friend come to pilot, Richard Attenborough can’t tackle flying, crashes the plane [unclear] and he doesn’t like it, he has to be a navigator, so it is a very good film, so they put him to the test, right, so the screen pilot is flying an Anson which is the one of the planes I was trained on and says I’m not [unclear] and Richard Attenborough, I can’t get what, you know, he want to be a pilot, anyway he says I’m not [unclear] something then they got him, he actually got up, worked it all out then where he were and he realised then that he is just as important as a navigator as all the rest of the crew. Each one has his job to do, they are all important, so, I think that was the best one ever. Another one was the “Journey to the Stars”, we see again only officers please, yeah, otherwise worth watching but that with the “Journey Together” was the only one that I really liked. The other was, you know, we only serve officers if you don’t mind.
TO: What do you think of the Dam Busters film?
BH: Well, that was quite factual, and they couldn’t mess about with that. So, that was quite good, that was quite factual. In fact, in matter of fact, we met his daughter, Barnes Wallis’s daughter up at Coningsby year before last.
TO: Yeah.
BH: Was Open Day up there. I don’t if you went.
TO: No. And do you remember hearing about Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
BH: Yeah. Yeah, 1941. Of course.
TO: And what was your attitude when you heard that that had happened?
BH: Well, this is the Axis, the come together the Japanese and the Germans, and the Italians of course. No, it was all part of the war process, wasn’t it?
TO: And what do you think of America’s use of the atomic bombs?
BH: Absolutely right. The war could have gone on for ages. Could have gone on for years. Are you tried to sorting out all those islands full of Japanese soldiers and the poor people in the camps? Right? Building the railways, slave labour, starving to death, of course it was right. Absolutely. Don’t call me a warmonger.
TO: I’m not.
BH: [laughs]
TO: And what do you, do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly?
BH: Bomber Command was not?
TO: Treated unfairly after the war.
BH: Sorry?
TO: Do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why Bomber Harris went to South Africa. He didn’t want us to be redundant. Don’t forget a lot of them had to cover up their chevrons, they had to cover up their rank, I mean, that was degrading.
TO: Why did they cover their chevrons?
BH: Because they were given [unclear] office work and things like that, yeah, and so they couldn’t work amongst people, all the aircraftsmen so they had a thought, oh well, they cover up their chevrons, after all that, the thinking of some of them in Air Ministry that’s why Bomber Harris went in disgust, he wanted us demobbed.
TO: And do you remember hearing about when the Cold War was starting and Stalin was taking over Europe?
BH: [unclear] sorry?
TO: Do you remember hearing about when Stalin was taking over Eastern Europe?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, first of all there was a treaty between him and Germans over Poland which the Germans broke fortunately, they brought Russia into the war, but he was just, to me, you know, Fascism and Communism in it’s rawest form are just as bad as one another, even to this present day, I mean Putin, he is just mixing it all up and that’s the Russian way of going. And we again in the West are too weak, Crimea, he got away with it, as he gets away with everything. ‘Cause he’s too powerful, he’s bombing civilians. In Syria no one takes any notice but I bet you, because personally, right, if the Israelis done anything like that, it’d be like that on the headlines. Which they wouldn’t. Are you with me?
TO: Yeah.
BH: But Russia, no protest from anybody. He’s moving children out there in Syria on the pretext ‘cause he’s shearing up Assad, ‘cause he wants the Mediterranean Tripoli port for his Mediterranean fleet. It’s the only reason. But he’s a murderer. So he’s as bad as any Nazi.
TO: And do you remember, were there any particular celebrations when Japan surrendered?
BH: When what?
TO: When Japan surrendered, were there any particular celebrations?
BH: Oh yeah, well that was in, what was it June, was it, ’45?
TO: Yeah, August/September.
BH: Yeah, ’45, oh yeah, but that was a sort of a sideshow, as to the war in Europe. But the emancipated people that came out on the, terrible, I mean, they’re animals to do what they did. So, that’s all behind us now, was it?
TO: And how do you feel today about your wartime service? How do you feel today about your wartime service?
BH: I’m quite proud of it. I wish I could’ve done more. Yeah.
TO: And what was your career when you left the RAF?
BH: Irregular [laughs]. To own my own business, owned my own business, had that going. Don’t forget that, you know, I’m not the exception but a lot of people, thousands of people, I mean, come out the forces, they didn’t know what to do, right, some had been in five years, four years, three years, I was in four years, four years out of your teens yeah, so you don’t want to be regulated if you know what I mean, right. You are really unsettled until you find your niche and yeah, unsettled, ‘til finally I founded my own business and that was that. Then I knew what was about.
TO: And, sorry I didn’t ask, during the Blitz, whereabouts in London were you living?
BH: In East London, Forest Gate and then we moved not far from here, to Chapel Heath, which is further up the road there and bought my own house, we had a great time there. The only reason I’m here is ‘cause the house was too big for my wife, she was suffering from emphysema, so the best thing is to get a retirement flat like this. I’ve got a sister who lives in Arizona, we’ve done three months there. I got a son and grandchildren in Israel, we’ll have three months there and the rest of the time in between summer months here. But as soon as we retire, that’s what we’re gonna do. So we bought there [unclear] outstanding [?], you tell him upstairs what’s going on, and what your plans are, he’ll laugh his head off. Didn’t work out. Within two years she was dead. So I’m here, don’t particularly like it, I make the best of it, so I go to Israel a few times, my son is now living down in the Negev but it is too hot for me, I was there last October, [laughs] hit a hundred and four Fahrenheit, so a bit too hot for me, it’s alright further north, Tel Aviv and all around there, Jerusalem, but not where he is. So that’s the name of the game but always say, tell him up there, your plans, laugh his head off, he’ll make sure it doesn’t work out, and you know what I mean.
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war that you’ve not talked about, which you think is important?
BH: What?
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war which you’ve not mentioned so far, which you think is important?
BH: No, not really, I can’t think of anything. I certainly know when the V1 was about because we were training over the, flying over the North Sea, and we were told, if we see anything like that we shouldn’t mention it to the public, and when on leave with the V2 we just walk, suddenly there’s a thump, it’s the rocket had landed, but then again you know, you’re immune to these things, coming conditioned I think.
TO: So did the V1s or V2s have any impact on public morale?
BH: Concerned but they weren’t frightened of them, they knew, you know, it was the end of the war anyway. Everything was going right and that was the last throw of the Germans, Peenemunde was known about and bombed, but the V1 was transferable, they could move it around, with the V2 rockets had to have their own base and they were bombed out of sight, but a few got up and dropped but people took it as they did in the Blitz.
TO: Did you ever visit any of those places like Coventry or?
BH: Only on business, yeah. Places I built. Portsmouth and Plymouth, Plymouth, new town, new city. Rotterdam new city, absolutely new.
TO: And what do you think was the biggest mistake that the Allies made during the war?
BH: I don’t think they, I think it was circumstances, I don’t think there was any mistake. They had to respond to circumstances and the main thing they had to keep in mind was defeating the Germans. So, if there were a few mistakes, when they tried Dieppe, it didn’t come off but they were probing and they had to do these things to test their defences, so I wouldn’t put that as a mistake, it was unfortunate.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Mh?
TO: What do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Well, two. The Battle of Britain and the North African campaign. Because they cleared that, there was a jumping off to get into Southern Europe via Sicily and Italy. So, two. The bombing campaign was a consequence of war, that was to stop Germany getting too strong by manufacturing armaments and things like that and also the psychological part of it was giving a bit of their own medicine because the public was screaming out for something to be done in revenge and the Germans, a part from being a planned objective, is also a moral and psychological one, giving them back as good as they get, as they’re given. That’s my opinion.
TO: Anything else you want to add to anything you said earlier at all or?
BH: No, I don’t think so.
TO: Right well.
BH: Just nice to have seen you.
TO: Thank you very much, it was
BH: Give my regards from up there.
TO: Was a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much.
BH: Yeah. Nice to see you. And be well.
TO: Thank you, you too.
Dublin Core
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AHarrisB160626
Title
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Interview with Bernie Harris. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:19:14 audio recording
Creator
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Tom Ozel
Date
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2016-06-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Harris joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force, joining in April 1943 and training to become an air gunner. Mentions his father serving in the Royal Flying Corps. Witnessed the London Blitz as a young boy. Describes training and operational flying conditions. Gives a vivid, detailed, first-hand account of Operation Manna. Expresses his view on wartime events, including Chamberlain’s speech, the North African campaign, the Phoney War and the Russian contribution to the Allied victory. Explains why, in his opinion, the Allies decided not to bomb the concentration camps during the war. He was de-mobbed in 1947, after a final posting to Italy with 112 Squadron. After the war he set up his own business leasing vending machines. He later became involved in an association of ex-servicemen who were involved in Operation Manna.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
515 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
entertainment
faith
Flying Training School
Gee
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Holocaust
home front
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hixon
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Stalin, Joseph (1878-1953)
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/162/2012/ADraegertH180209.1.mp3
7d2224183e7f8aade3fac374613aa495
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Draegert, Hubert
H Draegert
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Hubert Draegert, who lived in Berlin and was later evacuated near Wroclaw.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-02-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Draeger, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: Bevor wir anfangen, bitte ich Sie folgende Fragen zu beantworten, damit wir sicher sind, dass dieses Interview nach Ihren Wünschen sowie den Bedingungen unserer Sponsoren gemäß registriert wird. Sind Sie damit einverstanden, dass dieses Interview als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann? Ja oder nein?
HD: Ja.
PS: Gut. Das dieses Interview unter einer nichtkommerziellen Creative Commons Attributionslizenz, die mit den Buchstaben CC-BY-NC das bedeutet das sie nicht für kommerzielle Zwecke benutzt werden darf, öffentlich zugänglich gemacht wird? Ja oder nein?
HD: Ja.
PS: Danke. Das dieses Interview an sie zurückzuführen ist? Ja oder nein?
HD: Was heisst zurückführen?
PS: Ja, dass Sie der Author.
HD: Ach natürlich, ja, klar, wer sonst. Ja.
PS: Und dann noch, sind Sie bereit, der Universität das Copyright Ihres Beitrags zur Verfügung zu stellen, damit es zu jedem Zweck verwendet wird, aber dass das Ihr moralisches Recht, als Urheber des Interviews nicht in Betracht nehmen wird nach dem Copyright, Design und Patents Act vom Jahr 1988 gemäß, damit Sie identifiziert werden.
HD: Ja.
PS: Ja?
HD: Ja.
PS: Danke. Jetzt, also, dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Digital Archive durchgeführt. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der Befragte ist Herr Hubert Draegert. Heute ist der 9 Februar 2018. Ihr Interview wird Teil des International Bomber Command Digital Archive, das bei der Universität Lincoln untergebracht und vom Heritage Lottery Fund finanziert wird. Also, also, lieber Herr Draegert, konnen Sie mir erstmal was von Ihren, von Ihrem Haushalt erzählen, von Ihrer Familie, die, sagen wir, die ersten Erinnerungen die Sie haben.
HD: Also, die ersten Erinnerungen sind im Grunde genommen 1941, als mein Vater, der war da noch nicht Soldat, der wurde erst 1942, als mein Vater mit mir in die Innenstadt, also in die Mitte Berlins ging, um uns anzuschauen wie die Staatsoper Unter den Linden abbrannte oder die war getroffen. Die Staatsoper war eines der ersten Gebaüde mit die in Berlin getroffen wurde und weil mein Vater Musikliebhaber war, hatte der natürlich, jetzt ist er auf die Idee gekommen, dass müssen wir uns angucken. Mal Zwischenfrage, nehmen Sie das jetzt irgendwie auf oder schreiben Sie mit?
PS: Nein, nein, es wird aufgenommen.
HD: Wird aufgenommen, also kann ich flüssig reden.
PS: Ja, ich wollte noch eine Sache hinzufügen.
HD: Bitte.
PS: Wenn sie hören dass ich schweige, das Wichtige ist dass man Ihre Stimme hört und nicht meine.
HD: Aha.
PS: Also, lassen Sie ruhig die Erinnerungen empor.
HD: Fließen, ja. Ok. Also zurück, wir haben besichtigt 1941 den, praktisch die Zerstörung der Staatsoper Unter Den Linden aber das war zu der Zeit noch ein aussergewöhnliches Ereignis, so dass also viele Berliner sich diese Kriegschäden ansehen. Ich erinnere auch einen weiteren Bombenschaden in Kreuzberg, wo mein Vater auch noch mit mir mal hinging, wo ein Eckhaus getroffen wurde und viele Berliner nun also staunten über diese Schäden. Das hat sich natürlich mit der Zeit gegeben als dann die Zerstörung immer mehr Überhand nahm, und das also, sagen wir mal, zum täglichen Lebensablauf gehörte. Die Staatsoper ist insofern interessant, weil Hermann Göring, der damalige Chef der Deutschen Luftwaffe und Chef hier in Berlin, der Ministerpresident des Staates Preußen nun alles dransetzte um dieses Opernhaus, das seiner Aufsicht unterstand, sofort wieder aufzubauen und nun ist was besonderes passiert dass, trotz des Krieges, haben die Nazionalsozialisten alles dran gesetzt dieses Opernhaus wieder aufzubauen, es wurde 1942 in einem Gewaltakt wieder fertiggestellt. Ich erzähl das deswegen weil mein Vater, wie eingangs gesagt, Opernliebhaber mich nun in meine erste Oper schleppte. Das muss also praktisch 1942 gewesen sein, ich war sechs Jahre alt. Ich kann mich an Inhalt wenig erinnern aber ich rieche noch heute den frischen Putz in dem Opernhaus und die Deckengemälde waren auch nicht komplett ausgeführt, es roch alles nach frischem Mörtel, nach frischer Renovierung. Das Ende dieser Oper geschah dann spätestens 1944, wurde sie wieder getroffen und am 3 Februar 1945 war ja der größte Angriff der glaub ich jemals auf Berlin geflogen wurde, wo die ganze Innenstadt in Schutt und Asche ging, zum Beispiel das Berliner Schloss, das jetzt wieder aufgebaut wird, allerdings nur in den aüßeren Formen, aber als grosses Museum eines Tages in Berlin sicherlich ein Höhepunkt darstellt, das war der schlimmste Angriff und auch an den habe ich noch Erinnerungen. Jetzt mache ich erstmal ein Punkt.
PS: ich wollte Sie zurückbringen,
HD: Ja?
PS: Wollten Sie jetzt etwas schon hinzufügen?
HD: Neh, sagen Sie mal jetzt.
PS: Ich wollte Sie Moment noch zurückbringen zu ihrer Familie. Ob Sie mir ein Bißchen erzählen konnen, wo Sie geboren sind, in welchen, in welcher Umgebung Sie aufgewachsen sind und, Vater, Mutter, Geschwister?
HD: Ja, sage ich ganz gerne. Also, ich bin geboren 1936, in Berlin. Wir wohnten im Norden Berlins, im Afrikanischen Viertel, wir hatten eine Dreizimmerwohnung, mein Vater war, [unclear] man sagte damals, Bankbeamte, er lernte in einem Jüdischen Bankhaus in Berlin und insofern war er eigentlich so geprägt dass er nicht in der NSDAP drin war, sondern eben durch diese, durch seine Tätigkeit offensichtlich politisch ein wenig informierter war als manch ein anderer aber er musste dann in ein anderes Bankhaus wiel das Jüdische Bankhaus ja aufgelöst wurde. Wir, mein Bruder ist 1928 geboren, der ist 1944 wurde der Luftwaffenhelfer, dass heisst also mit sechzehn Jahren, fufzehn Jahren glaub ich, wurde der zur Flak eingezogen in Berlin, dass heisst die ganze Klasse wurde eingezogen und ging mit dem Lehrer in eine Geschützbatterie in Berlin-Tegel, wo ich ihn dann als Kind auch besuchte. Meine Mutter war Hausfrau und wir lebten relativ friedlich bis 1943, wo mein Vater eingezogen wurde. Mein Vater ist, hat den Krieg überlebt, er sass in Dänemark und ist dort von den Britischen Truppen in Gefangenschaft genommen worden und hatt seine Kriegsgefangenschaft in England erlebt, in Leeds. Und es gibt die schöne Geschichte von dem Englischen Verhöroffizier der ihn fragte: ‘Sagen Sie mal, Herr Draegert, haben Sie Kinder?’, ‘Ja’, ‘Wie viel?’, ‘Zwei’, ‘Geboren wann?’, ‘1928 und 1936’, Und da sagte er mit einem lächelnden Blick, so erzählte es mein Vater immer: ‘Aha, Herr Draegert, dann haben Sie ein Kind für den Führer gezeugt’. Damit war also klar das [laughs], aber wie gesagt, das Ganze war irgendwo so, dass er eigentlich, als er 1947 nach Berlin zurückkam, gesund aussah, also das ganze gegentiel von dem was man so sah, wenn die armen Kriegsgefangenen aus den östlichen Landern zurückkamen, also sprich Sowjetunion. Ja, mein Bruder, wiegesagt, im, also Luftwaffenhelfer, unsere Wohnung ist nur leicht beschädigt worden, dass hiesst bei den ersten Luftangriffen sind alle Fensterschieben raussgeflogen und ich erinnere noch wie ganze Kolonnen von Glassfirmen bei uns um das Haus sich aufstellten, das war so ein langer Siedlungsblock und es wurden die Scheiben wieder eingesetzt, man wunderte sich warscheinlich ein bisschen, wo man die Hoffnung her nahm, das nur die neuen Scheiben das überleben wurden, es dauerte auch gar nicht lange, war der nächste Angriff da flogen die Scheiben wieder raus und meine Eltern hatten da irgendeinen Herrn in der Familie der uns dann die Fenster mit Pappe oder mit Brettern vernagelte. Es musste ja auch, und das ist meine Kindheitserinnerung, immer scharf drauf geachtet werden, das die Verdunkelung eingehalten wurde, dass heisst wir hatten vor allen Fenstern Rolleaux aus schwarzer Pappe, die abends rechzeitig runtergemacht werden mussten, damit die feindlichen Flieger kein Licht sehen sollten. Es passierte natürlich, dass meine Mutter mit mir irgendwann unterwegs war, ausserhalb Berlins und wir vergessen hatten im Badezimmer das Licht zu löschen, dass heisst in dem Riesenblock war ein Badezimmer, Fenster waren ja relativ klein, was nun nachts hell leuchtete und gross, grosser Ärger, der Blockwart machte meiner Mutter natürlich große Vorwürfe, sowas darf nicht passieren und man hat dann aus der über uns liegenden Wohnung versucht, mit einen langen Teppich es aussen abzudunklen, damit also der Lichtschien die Flieger nicht also auf eine Spur lockt. Das sind so Sachen die ich als Kind immer erlebt habe, andererseits war auf dem Hausflur war immer, standen immer Wassereimer und Beutel mit Sand und die sogenannte Feuerpatsche, ein Begriff der damals neu war, dass heisst irgend einen Stiel mit einen Lappen an und der sollte dann in den Eimer getunkt werden um das möglicherweise entstehende Feuer auszuschlagen, das haben wir nie benutzen brauchen, wir hatten nur eine einzige Stabbrandbombe, die oben durch die Wohnung durchging, das war so eine rechteckige mit einen Eisenkern, die waren uns damals sehr vertraut und wir Jungs sammelten auch Bombensplitter, unter anderem auch diese Eisenkerne. Und diese Bombe schlug auch durch unsere Decke, guckte bei uns oben in der Decke raus und ein behertzter Mann versuchte sie von oben rauszuziehen, übersah dabei dass ein Brand, ein Explosiv-stoff drin war, dass heisst der Mann verblutete in dem Moment und das war eigentlich so die schrecklichste Erinnerung die so unmittelbar ich erlebt habe. Aber ein Feuer enstand nicht, im Endeffekt ist also die Wohnung erhalten geblieben nur durch den zunehmenden Andrang der Bombenangriffe auf Berlin hiess es ja, Müttern mit Kindern, wenn sie nicht gerade in der Produktion wichtig waren, sollten evakuiert werden, dass heisst aufs Land. Und wir hatten dann die Möglichkeit, nach Schlesien, in der Nähe von Breslau, einen Bauernhof zu finden, wo ein entfernter Onkel lebte, und der nahm uns auf und so habe ich, Ende ‘43 bis Ende ’44 in Schlesien gelebt als Kind, im Prinzip sehr friedlich denn man sagte immer, bis dahin kommen die Engländer nicht, oder die Amerikaner. Und so war es wohl auch, es waren nur eigentlich wenige Bombenangriffe auf Breslau und man wusste auch nicht genau oder ich kann es heute nicht sagen, ob es nicht auch Russische Angriffe waren. Jedenfalls man war dort sicher, man lebte dort im Grunde genommen in Frieden und wir fuhren nur ’44, Ende ’44 nach Berlin zurück, um immer mahl zu gucken, steht die Wohnung noch? Es war ja nicht so, dass man immer telefonieren konnte und mit den Nachbarn sprechen konnte, das ging ja alles gar nicht so einfach. Also schauten wir uns die Wohnung an, die Wohnung war belegt mit anderen ausgebombten Menschen, was auch wieder zu Konflikten führten, weil meine Mutter natürlich meinte: ‘Na, wie leben die sich den hier in unserer Wohnung aus?’ undsoweiter. Aber in dem Moment wo wir Weihnachten ’44 hier in Berlin verlebten, mein Vater war natürlich in Dänemark, sass der fest an der Front, da brachen die Nachrichten doch rein oder man hörte ja auch den Englischen Sender, das machte mein Bruder mal, als Luftwaffenhelfer, der wusste damit umzugeben, [mimics the first notes of Beethoven’s 5 Symphony], also BBC und wir wussten also, oder mein Bruder wusste, dass die Russen also eine Offensive gestartet haben von der Weichsel bis an die Oder, also auf den Marsch waren. Am 16 Januar kamen sie ja dann an der Oder an, das heisst also wir kamen nicht mehr zurück nach Schlesien, meine Mutter versuchte es noch, wurde aber in Breslau von Deutschen Soldaten aufgegriffen, die ihr sagten: ‘Na, sagense mal, junge Frau, wo wollense denn hin?’, na dann sagte sie: ‘Na, ich will nach in das, dieses Dorf wo wir waren, in Juliusburg’. Da sagte sie: ‘Sie sind wohl verrückt, da sind die Russen schon’. Also kam sie wieder zurück, konnte sogar mit den Eisenbahnzug fahren, musste nicht also trekken, beziehungsweise laufen, so wie di anderen Flüchtlinge, diese schreckliche Zeit, weil’s ja auch einer der härtesten Winter damals war, im Januar, so dass sie, wir also hier in Berlin blieben, wir hatten alle unsere schönen Sachen, was man so auch hat, Silber und Besteck und Bettwäsche, das hatten wir alles nach Schlesien verlagert um es hier vor dem Bomben zu sichern aber nun war’s weg und nun, die Wohnung hatt’s überstanden aber di Sachen waren weg. So, nun waren wir wieder in Berlin und, ja, dann kam eben die Zeit wo die Bombenangriffe ja doch immer stärker wurden, 3 Februar wie gesagt ’45, einer der schwersten Angriffe. Am 26 Februar hatte ich Geburtstag, da wurde ich neun, war wieder ein schwerer Angriff, ist da als glaub ich Kreuzberg untergegangen. Des schlimme war, das sprach sich auch rum, das die Phosphorbomben die Menschen wenn sie der Phosphor sie traff, dann brannte es auf der Haut, dann ging die zum Teil in die Löschteiche, es gab so Löschteiche in Berlin, oder überhaupt, um Löschwasser für den Brand zu haben, dann tauchten die Menschen unter in diesem Wasser, und wenn sie rauskamen, brannten sie wieder, also das war eine ganz ganz fürchterliche Geschichte diese Phosphorbomben. Wir selber haben hier in unmittelbarer Nähe bei uns einmal eine Luftmine erlebt wo wir also richtig, von man so vom, von der Sitzgelegenheit so ein bisschen hochging, wo der Kalk so aus der, aus dem verstärkten Luftschutzkeller rieselte. Und als Kind hatte man natürlich Angst und die Mutter war bemüht uns zu schützen und wir hatten hier in der Umgebung in einem grossen Strassenbahnhof einen Tiefbunker für Mutter und Kind. Und dann hatten wir also eine Zeit wo wir abends so gegen acht oder weiss ich nicht, mit seinem Köfferchen halben Kilometer liefen, um in diesen Bunker einzukehren, Mutter und Kind und da konnte man schlafen und dann hörte man das auch nicht krachen aber es war immer dieses, diese Neugierde beziehungsweise die Angst wenn man um die letzte Ecke kommt [laughs] steht das Haus noch oder steht es nicht? Wie mann das so in anderen Sachen überlebt hat, ich habe dann auch gesehen, als diese Riesenluftmine die da bei uns runterging, das da hiess immer, da sind achtig Menschen ums Leben gekommen. Die ist so seitlich gegen die Mauer unten wohl eingeschlagen so dass sie den ganzen Sand, der dort als Schutzwall errichtet wurde, zur Seite und dann ist das Haus in sich zusammengestürtzt, einschliesslich Luftschutzkeller und daher diese hohe Anzahl von Toten. Ja, das sind so diese Dinge die im Augenblick, vielleicht machen wir hier mal eine Sekunde Pause und Sie fragen weiter.
PS: Ja, ich wollte Sie zum Beispiel, wir werden ein bisschen dann zurück kommen auf das was Sie mir jetzt kürzlich erzählt haben. Ich wollte wieder noch zurück gehen, zum Beispiel,
HD: Ja?
PS: Sie sagten Sie sind im Afrikaviertel.
HD: Afrikanisches Viertel. Ja?
PS: Können Sie mir ein bisschen erzählen, warum das eben so, diesen Namen trägt, trug und wie das Leben in dem Viertel war?
HD: Also, das ist eine Gegend im Nord-westen Berlins, das ist in den Zwanziger Jahren, Ende Zwanzig, Anfang Dreissig, gebaut worden im Rahmen, man würde heute sagen, sozialer Wohnungsbau, also ein Grosssiedlungsbau und es gab einen berühmten Architekten, dessen Namen heute noch in Berlin eine Rolle spielt, Bruno Taut, die also, Taut, T, A, U, T, die also Siedlungsbauten errichtet hatten, und meine Eltern konnten also 1931 eine frische Wohnung beziehen, erst in der Afrikanischen Strasse, so halt, die heisst heute noch so, und dann sind wir umgezogen in die Togostrasse. Und warum Afrikanisches Viertel? Sie wissen dass Deutschland, oder das Deutsche Reich eigentlich das letzte Land war, was so ein bisschen Kolonialbesitz auch haben wollte, der Deutsche Kaiser und die Deutschen Kolonien war Deutsch-Südwest, Deutsch-Ostafrika, Kamerun und Togo. Und nach diesen ist um die Jahrhundertwende die Gegend hier benannt worden also die Togostrasse, die Swapokmuder, die Windhuker, Transvaal, ach was noch? Wis ich nicht, also jedenfalls, und daher der Begriff Afrikanisches Viertel. Was im Augenblick ein bisschen hier politisch umstritten ist weil, vielleicht wissen Sie es am [unclear], weil es Forderungen gibt bezüglich [clears throat] der Hereros die damals von den Deutschen Kolonialtruppen da vernichtet worden sind, man spricht so von einem ersten Genozid, den es damals gegeben hat und es gibt also jetzt Forderungen, schon seit Jahren immer an die Bundesrepublik hinsichtlich der Entschädigung und in dem Zusammenhang kommt also auch die Frage auf ob, zum Beispiel die Petersallee in Berlin oder der Nachtigalplatz oder die Lüderitzstrasse, das sind alles Begriffe aus der Afrikanischen Kolonialzeit, unbenannt werden sollen in Menschen die also in Afrika eine Rolle gespielt haben. Soweit also Afrikanisches Viertel. Die Gegend selber ist sehr schön und ist auch heute noch schön und dabei ist ein grosser Volkspark, der Volkspark Rehberge. Also wir hatten dort eigentlich eine schöne oder wunderbare Umgebung, wir waren nicht so in der Stadt drin, sie müssen sich also nicht vorstellen, mit Hinterhaüsern oder dergleichen oder enge Wohnbebauung, sondern Ziel war damals sozialer Wohnungsbau: Licht, Luft und Sonne. Punkt.
PS: Wissen Sie überhaupt, wissen Sie ob es zu der Zeit, ehemalige, sagen wir, Kolonialafrikaner im Afrikaviertel lebten, ob also Herero oder andere da lebten oder ob das nur ernannt worden ist aus kolonialen.
HD: Nein. Nur in Erinnerung an das Kolonialreich, ich habe da zu der Zeit keinen farbigen Menschen gesehen, das einzige was man mal als Kind sah das war der berühmte Sarotti-Mohr, wissen Sie was’n Mohr ist, sagt Ihnen das was?
PS: Ja.
HD: Also, der Sarotti-Mohr, sa heisst also das Label der Schokoladenfirma und das haben sie glaub ich heute noch aber es ist auch umstritten und da gibt’s in Berlin die Mohrenstrasse aber das geht auf die Preussische Geschichte zuruck. Man wollte wohl um die Jahrhundertwende hier der, es gibt einen Zoomenschen, Zoo Erfinder in Hamburg, Herr Hagenbeck, der wollte hier in Berlin so einen, wie soll ich sagen, so eine Art, grossen Zoo, afrikanisches Leben hierherbringen, mit wilden Tieren, mit Elefanten undsoweiter, aber durch den Ersten Weltkrieg ist es nichts geworden und dann ist ja Deutschland auch die Kolonien losgeworden im Versailler Vertrag und ich glaube England und Frankreich sind dann an die Stelle getreten.
PS: Jetzt Moment zurück zu Ihrer familie.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie war Ihre Wahrnehmung des Nationalsozialismus in der Familie? Sprachen Ihre, also sprach man darüber? Als kleines Kind hörten Sie dass Ihre Eltern darüber diskutierten und sprachen? Wie war also die, sagen wir, die Atmosphäre in der Familie?
HD: Also die Atmosphäre war so wie ich ja Eingangs schon schilderte, mein Vater war nur durch seine Berufstätigkeit nicht parteilich, also sagen wir mal, im weitesten Sinne ein Nazi, sondern der hat die Sache sehr nüchtern gesehen und ich kann mich erinnern immer, das wenn der Grossvater auch kam, dass dann die Männer vor dem Radio auch standen während des Krieges und sagen wir mal den Frontverlauf verfolgten. Ich glaub auch sogar dass wir eine Landkarte hatten wo, mit bestimmten Nadeln mit roten Punkten oder weiss ich wie, der Frontverlauf skizziert wurde. Und ich werde immer einen Satz nicht los den mein Vater wohl sagte: ‘Wir verlieren den Krieg’ und vielleicht auf die Frage ‘Warum?’, ‘Wir haben kein Öl’, oder ‘es liegt am Öl’. Das ist mir erst im Nachhinein natürlich klar geworden warum dann die Wehrmacht unbedingt also bis zum Kaukasus vordringen wollte oder bis zu den Ölfeldern, das war mir damals als Kind natürlich nicht so klar, was das zu bedeuten hatte aber so ist die Atmosphäre ungefähr gewesen. Mein anderer Onkel erzählte immer, davon des, der war im Geschaftsleben hier tätig, der ist nicht eingezogen worden weil man ihn brauchte und der hatte wohl Verbindung zu Wehrmachtsangehörigen und der horte mal irgendwie mal eine Geschichte wo dann doch davon die Rede war es müsse also Lager geben in Deutschland wo die Menschen also drangsaliert wurden, zum Beispiel die Juden, hier in Berlin und also, warscheinlich war Auschwitz gemeint oder Birkenau und jedenfalls beim Bier ist dann wohl mal ein Wort gefallen und er erzählte dann auch in der Familie und das habe ich mitgekriegt, das er Schwierigkeiten kriegte weil irgendeiner gesagt hatt: ‘Na, Herr Draegert, sie erzählen da aber Greuelmarchen. Sowas gibt es nicht’. Und der hat wohl lange ringen müssen aber weil er wichtig war, der war Leiter eines Betriebes hier in Berlin, ist er irgendwie mit einem blauen Auge davongekommen und als man ihn dann, und das war ganz spannend eigentlich, das habe ich als Kind natürlich dann bewusst mitgekriegt, als man ihn dann vorlud, jetzt zu einem Büro der Gestapo 1944, ist er am selben Abend am Kaiserdamm, wo er wohnte, ausgebombt worden, dass heisst also, die Bombe schlug so ein dass sie die Vorderfront des Hauses wegriss und wenn man auf dem Kaiserdamm stand, dann konnte man sogar noch die Lampe hängen sehen, und die hängt jetzt heute noch bei mir, jetzt konnte man sagte, da hatt er sich eine schöne Geschichte ausgedacht, nein, die stimmt aber wirklich. Aber der Witz, oder sagen wir man, das Glück für ihn war, dass er nun bei dem angegebenen Termin sagen konnte: ‘Meine Herren, ich bin heute ausgebombt, ich muss mich erstmal um meine Sachen kümmern’. Und da hat man ihn praktisch ziehen lassen, und er ist mit einem blauen Auge davongekommen. Also will sagen, und der dritte Onkel, der sass in Russland, der war dort und weil er früher Bankbeamter war, musste er da irgendwie auch so einen Betrieb leiten oder so, der ist aber durch den Rückmarsch so gekommen dass er in Liepzig in Amerikanischer Gefangenschaft geriet und dadurch auch den Krieg überlebt hat und glücklich war das er nicht in Russische denn das hätte anders ausgehen können, nicht, der war in Berdytschiw in der Ukraine, und da weiss man nicht wie, wie mann dann mit ihm umgegangen wäre. Also, will damit sagen, es war eigentlich eine sehr entspannte Atmosphäre, ich kenne keinen bei uns in der Familie der also mit’na SA Uniform oder sowas rumrannte. Lediglich, ach so, das muss man vielleicht sagen, mein Vater der war im Betrieb, die hatten hier so eine Art Betriebsorganisation, ich weiss nicht mehr wie das hiess, jedenfalls so wie in der DDR gab es so eine Art Werkschutz, und die hatten eine Uniform, und diese Uniform hängt bei uns immer im Schrank. Und nun war mein Vater längst Soldat, er stand also an der Küste Dänemarks und am Skagerrak und gab, hat nie in seinem Leben einen Schuss ab, also der hat Schwein gehabt, er war bei der Kriegsmarine und diese Uniform hängt nun in unserm Schrank und als nun die Russen einzogen in Berlin und man ja nicht sicher war dass die also Wohnung für Wohnung durchsuchten und sagen wir mal nach irgendwelchen Schätzen suchten, wusste man schon, das sprach sich schnell um, wenn die so eine Uniform sehen, dann denken die, Uniform ist Uniform, dann wird derjenige auf der Stelle erschossen. Und meine Mutter nahm rechtzeitig die Uniform, rollte sie zusammen und vesteckte sie im Keller unter den Kohlen, wir hatten noch Ofenheizung, und der Keller war mit Briquettes voll, und da wurden diese militärischen Sachen versteckt. Auch ein Hitler Bild kann ich mich nicht erinnern hatten wir nicht zu hängen, obwohl ich das natürlich von der Schule her kannte, da hingen natürlich überall die Bilder. Also dieses, zu dem Thema Familie. Also Punkt an der Stelle und Sie fragen vielleicht von derweise weiter.
PS: Ja, ich muss sagen, Ich wäre sehr daran interessiert mehr über, seis über ihren Bruder bei der Flak zu hören,
HD: Ja.
PS: Und spater auch über ihren Vater, auch das Thema der Gefangenschaft in Leeds.
HD: England, in Leeds, ja. Also, mein Bruder, wie gesagt, war Luftwaffenhelfer, der ist also, mit fünfzehn, das muss ja ’43 gewesen sein, ’43, wurden die eingezogen, der kam dann plötzlich mit einer Luftwaffenuniform die ihm etwas zu gross schien, also ein, eigentlich ein jämmerliches Bild. Die ganze Klasse ging also aus der Schule raus, wurde in einen anderen Stadtteil, hier in Berlin Tegel, verlagert, dort war eine sogenannte Batterie, und da standen also Luftabwehrgeschütze, Flak nannte man das damals, und auch das Kaliber weiss ich natürlich heute noch, vieles vergisst man aber so’ne Dinger hat man natürlich sich gemerkt, Kaliber 10,5. Und mein Bruder war dann eingeteilt für das sogenannte Funkmessgerät, FuMG wurde das damals abgekürtzt und ich vermute das es so eine Art Vorlaüfer des Radars gewesen, der sass also in so einer Kombüse und hatt dann den Nachthimmel irgendwie beobachtet, heranfliegende Flugzeuge und die Ortung und die anderen Kameraden, die standen neben der Flak und mussten dann auf Grund seiner Anweisung oder Hinweise die Flak ausrichten und wenn dann die Flugzeuge nachts kamen, dann schossen sie also in den Himmel, da war ich natürlich nicht bei aber am Tage, als ich die Batterie besuchen durfte, da erinnere ich noch wie um das Kanonenrohr immer weisse Streifen gemacht wurden, das war also der sogenannte Abschuss. Bei meinem Bruder war es aber nur so, das der da [unclear], das der nun Funk hörte, weil Funkmann war er im Funkmessgerät, hörte der natürlich wie eingangs erwähnt, auch den Britischen Sender und dann den Soldatensender West, den Deutschen Sender. Dass heisst also der war für seine fufzehn, sechzehn, siebzehn Jahre sehr informiert und wenn er hier bei uns zu hause war, dann hörten wir natürlich auch über den Rundfunk hörte er dann und wir mussten immer ganz vorsichtig sein, das darf der Nachbar nicht mitkriegen, und dieses berühmte Trommelzeichen von BBC, das war ja etwas durchdringend, also da musste man schon genau hinhören, aber mein Bruder wusste also wie es geht. Aber dann kam die schreckliche Situation, dass die ganze Batterie anschliesslich Lehrerpersonal nach Jugoslawien versetzt wurde und dann haben wir abends, im Lichterschein der trüben Laterne, es war ja alles abgedunkelt, mussten wir nun zugucken wie die Jungs an einem langen Strick die Kannonen zogen auf Plattenwagen der Eisenbahn und dann fuhren die bei Nacht und Nebel also Richtung Jugoslawien ab und die Mutter weinten natürlich bitterlich und die Jungs machten auch keinen Eindruck dass man das Gefühl hatte, jetzt geht’s in ein grosses Abenteuer. Also mein Bruder war Flakhelfer in Jugoslawien und daher weiss ich nur, kannte ich nur den Begriff der Partisanen, dass heisst also die Jungs waren von Anfang an darauf getrimmt nur im Block zu gehen, nicht alleine, es bestand immer die Gefahr möglicherweise aus dem Hinterhalt irgendwie von Partisanen angegriffen werden. Mein Bruder kam auch zu uns nach Schlesien, also man muss sich vorstellen, so ein sechzehnjähriger, heute, ich weiss nicht wie ein Vater heute denkt, wenn so ein sechzehnjähriger also nur durch die Weltgeschichte fährt, ob er nicht Angst hat. Der fuhr dann durch Halb Europa mit den sogenannten Soldatenzügen oder Urlauberzügen und kam auch nach Schlesien und erzählte immer voller Interesse und wir lauschten natürlich wenn er, sagen wir mal, fuhr ohne Genehmigung, offensichtlich hatte er da den Mut gehabt, ich weiss es nicht mehr so, aber es muss so, leider ist er tot, er kann’s mir heute nicht mehr bestätigen, aber er war also in der Hinsicht mutig, das er sich dann im Kloh des Eisenbahnzuges einschloss wenn die sogenannten Kettenhunde, die habe ich auch erlebt als Kind wenn wir nach Schlesien fuhren, das sind immer Soldaten mit irgendwelchen Schildern auf der Brust, mit’m Stahlhelm auf und so, das müssen wohl SS-Leute gewesen sein, die die Züge kontrollierten und von irgenwelchen Männern natürlich wissen wollten, warum sind die im Zug, haben sie einen Urlaubsschein, müssen sie irgendwo hin oder wie geht das. Also mein Bruder war da sehr couragiert, der hatt das überlebt, kam dann zum Schluss noch nach Prag. Prag war ja so ziemlich lange noch von der Wehrmacht besetzt und der Krieg da war wohl relativ harmlos, hat sich aber dann doch nach Westen dann, also Richtung Deutschland wieder zurückziehen können oder mit der ganzen Truppe, hat es sogar bis Berlin geschafft und nun kommt das besondere: Ende Oktober endete seine Luftwaffenzeit und diese Jungs waren alle vorgesehen für den Offizierslehrgang. Und mein Bruder mit seinem Wissen wusste genau, also wir müssen sehen das wir überleben wie auch immer. Und ich weiss auch dass seine Kameraden zum Teil, da waren welche bei, die bis zum Schluss den Führer verteidigen wollten und die Klasse hatte grosse Verluste. Will sagen, mein Bruder war so pfiffig das er für zwei, drei Monate untertauchte, aber bevor es soweit war, kam sein Batteriechef, also ein Luftwaffenoffizier zu ihm, wieder auf ihn zu und sagte: “Draegert, Sie müssen sich jetzt für eine Einheit entscheiden, wo Sie hin wollen, als Offiziersanwärter. Wenn nicht, dann werden Sie entschieden’. Und wir werden nun dann nachhinein wissen landeten so ne Jungs bei der Waffen-SS, so mindest karteimässig. Und also er ist auf Grund dieser Empfählung dieses Offiziers hatt er sich für die sogenannten Lenkwaffen entschieden, was immer das sein mag, jedenfalls die Lenkwaffenabteilung lag in Giessen und das muss wohl so gewesen sein und so hatt’s mir mein Bruder bestätigt, das Schreiben ist entweder nie angekommen oder aber, und das war seine Vermutung, Giessen war bereits von den Amerikanern besetzt. Das heisst also dieses Thema hatte sich erledigt was aber noch lange nicht bedeutete, dass er jetzt hier in Berlin sicher war. Und ich weiss auch das Nachbarn nachfragten, warum ist Ihr Sohn nicht an der Front bei meiner Mutter, weil meine Mutter sehr sehr ängstlich war und mein Bruder tauchte auch nicht mehr bei uns auf, der hatte irgendwelche Hilfsdienste am Bahnhof mitgemacht, also Koffer schleppen und Betreuung von Flüchtlingen oder solche Geschichten, irgendwie hatte er es geschafft, bis zum Einmarsch der Russen. Und hatt überlebt und war ein ausgesprochen, wie soll ich sagen, konnte mir der Situation offensichtlich so umgehen, dass er in erster Linie an sich dachte und nicht an den Führer, wen ich dass so formulieren darf, er hat dann, das Glück oder Unglück die Russen suchten bei uns im Keller einen jungen Mann der gut sprechen konnte, artikulieren konnte. Das er nun Soldat war haben sie nicht gesehen seine Klammotten alle entsorgt mit seiner kurzen Hose oder wie auch immer und mein Bruder wurde dann von den Russen in Anspruch genommen und zog dann mit denen hier mit einen Lautsprecherwagen durch unsere Wohngegend und dann praktisch der erste Befehl über Rundfunk, nicht über Lautsprecher, ertelit wurde, dass heisst die Menschen wurden aufgefordert die Enttrümmerung vorzunehmen, die Strassen zu saübern undsoweiter und sofort. Meine Mutter hatte wahnsinnige Angst um ihn, dachte jetzt ist so in letzter Minute aber er hatt es überlebt und er hatt auf Grund dieser Erfahrung dann später sogar den Kontakt zum Rundfunk gesucht und hatt dann eine Lehre beim Berliner Rundfunk in Berlin angetreten, im Jahre 1948, ’47 glaub ich, ’47, ja. Ja also, das war mein Bruder. Jetzt wollten Sie noch wissen von meinem Vater.
PS: Ja, also eben, ein bisschen wenn Sie sich etwas erinnern an sagen wir seine Kriegserfahrung, die Zeit wo er eben in Dänemark war und auch etwas erzählt hatt von seiner Gefangenschaft in England.
HD: Ja. Also der sass in Friederickshavn, das ist oben die nördlichste Spitze von Dänemark, er war Marinesoldat ist aber nie auf einem Schiff gewesen, auf Grund seiner Tätigkeit als Bankbeamte war er, sass er, wie es so schon hiess, in der Schreibstube, hatte also immer einen Verwaltungsjob und erzählte halt von irgendwelchen Situationen wo er oben an der Küste stand, er musste auch mal Wache schieben aber da passierte wohl nicht viel. Und ich erinnere, oder wir erinnern uns noch an die Zeit als wir aus Dänemark Packete auch kriegten, dass heisst die Möglichkeit bestand wohl damals auch für die Soldaten dort regelrecht einzukaufen, ich kann mir vorstellen das der das beschlagnahmt wenn sowas hat und schickte uns nach Schlesien also irgendwelche Lebensmittel, das muss wohl prima haben wir ja nun mitgekriegt das in Sachsenhausen, im KZ, die Dänische Währung kopiert wurde und so, die Dänische Wirtschaft unterlaufen wurde, warscheinlich sind die Soldaten mit diesen Geld bezahlt worden und mein Vater lebte da im Prinzip sicher. Jetzt war der Krieg zu Ende, und wenn ich ihn richtig erinnere sind die Engländer gar nicht bis da oben gekommen sondern die Wehrmacht hat kapituliert und die sind mit Sack und Pack von Friedrichshafen durch Dänemark gerollt, mehr oder weniger unangefochten, Richtung Schleswig-Holstein und sind dort von den Briten in Empfang genommen worden, sind dann erstmal nach Belgien weitergeleitet worden. Dort in Belgien hatt er schlechte Erfahrungen gemacht, die Belgischen Menschen sind über die Deutschen Soldaten natürlich hergefallen, haben sie geschlagen und bespuckt, also sowas erzählte er, nun wenn man die Geschichte mit Belgien kennt hat man beinahe schon Verständnis dafür. Also jedenfalls Belgien war nicht gut und sie sind dann verladen worden über den Kanal nach England.0 Und dort war er also Prisoner of War und wieder landete er in einer Schreibstube und war zum Schluss irgendwie Stellvertretender Lagerleiter oder in sowas. Also dem ging’s da, unter allen Umständen, soweit menschlich einwandfrei, ich habe nie ein böses Wort gehört aus der Richtung. Er hatte auch Kontakt mit irgendeiner Englischen Familie in Leeds, aber was daraus geworden ist das weiss ich nicht. Jedenfalls 1947 kommt mein Vater mit einen Riesenseesack hier in Berlin-Grunewald an, mit einen grossen Flüchtlingstransport und die kam auch nicht mehr im Güterwagen an sondern die hatten dann schon ’47 fuhren sie also doch etwas menschlich mit normalen Personenwagen. Mein Vater stieg aus dem Zug, er sah gut genährt aus, also ein Bild des Friedens und für viele Leute doch überraschend, weil man ja die andere Seite kannte. Noch kam ja noch gar nicht so viel aus der Sowjetunion, die blieben ja bis ’55 da. Also, und mein Vater brachte nun Sachen mit aus England in dem Riesenseesack die wir natürlich heiss ersehnten, zum Beispiel Cadbury, seitdem weiss ich was Cadbury ist. Ich weiss nicht ob es heute noch gibt die Schockoladenfirma.
PS: Ja, ja.
HD: Und das zweite war, was ich erinnere war, eine grosse Büchse Nivea, im Nachhinein stellte sich heraus, also Nivea in Hamburg ist wohl erhalten geblieben und hat erstmal für die Engländer produziert, jedenfalls brachte er eine Büchse Nivea mit, und Koffee vor allen Dingen und Tee. Also es war ein Fest des Friedens, meine Mutter war glücklich und im Nachhinein, aber das gilt nicht für mein Vater, wir haben im Umfeld so ein Paar Leute die sind in England geblieben. Also es muss auch Situationen gegeben haben wo, wenn sie keine Familie hier hatten und dort Anschluss fanden in England, offensichtlich sogar in Grossbritannien geblieben sind, also will sagen unter’m Strich mein Vater hat Glück gehabt. Ist nach Berlin zurückgekommen, als Bankbeamter im Westteil der Stadt gab es keine Arbeit mehr, dir Banken waren alle verstaatlicht, beziehungsweise sind aufgelöst worden von den Russen, es war ja hier alles anders. Und langsam entwickelte sich erst die Differenz zwischen Ost und West, Westberlin, Ostberlin und er musste also andere Tätigkeiten ausüben und er ist 1950 kehrte er wieder in das Bankgeschäft zurück, in die Zentralbank also die eine Unterabteilung der Bank der Deutschen Länder war, und später Deutsche Bundesbank in Frankfurt-Main. Aber seine alte Bank, bei der er bis zum Schluss tätig war, bis also, [unclear], ’43, die gab’s nicht mehr, die wurde ja aufgelöst und die war dann später in Frankfurt-Main und da ist er natürlich nicht hingezogen. So, das war mein Vater.
PS: Hatte er Ihnen, also das war, er war in der Gegend von Leeds.
HD: Ja.
PS: Hat er Ihnen irgend, haben Sie noch irgendwelche Erinnerungen das er Ihnen etwas noch erzählte von dem Gefangenenlager wo er war oder etwas das Ihnen so einfällt?
HD: Der war zuständig für die, für irgendwie das Kraftfahrkorps, irgendwie für die Lastwagenverteilung und Organisation von Transporten undsoweiter. Ich hab natürlich aber da müsste ich mal suchen, ich habe sogar noch seine Personalakte die er mitgebracht hat und wir haben mal, oder meine, mein Neffe der lebt jetzt bei London und die haben mal im Englischen also in dieser Organisation nachgeforscht und haben die Unterlagen gekriegt. Alos, wir wissen wie der Fragebogen aussah, aber das werden Sie ja auch alles haben. Nicht, also was er beantworten musste, in welchen politischen Organisationen er war oder nicht war, das haben wir alles, aber aus dem Lager selber. Es war, vielleicht war er auch vorsichtig um, sagen wir mal, nicht den Eindruck zu erwecken, vielleicht manchmal ist er so in Gedanken gekommen, das der eine oder der andere gar nicht so scharf war wenn er zum Beispiel keine Familie hatte nun in das kaputte Deutschland zurückzukehren, wenn er in England eine Möglichkeit des Lebens sah. Bei meinem Vater war das nicht so, der wollte nach Hause natürlich, der wollte uns ja wiedersehen. Familie ist ja gottseidank intakt geblieben, wir haben also auch wenig Kriegsopfer in der Familie gehabt, alle habense irgendwie Schwein gehabt. Ja, nee also, mehr aus dem Gefangenenlager kann ich Ihnen nicht sagen, ich weiss nur dass mein anderer Onkel, der war in Frankreich dann bei den Amerikanern im Gefangenenlager und als die mitkriegten, die Amis, dass der Musiker auch nebenbei war, haben sie ihm ein Cello gegeben und der hat die Gefangenenkapelle organisiert. Also auch der kam eigentlich zurück mit einem sehr offenen Verhältnis zu den ehemaligen Kriegsgegnern.
PS: Ja, dann, jetzt ein bisschen zurück zu Ihnen.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie, was, welche Erinnerungen haben Sie von der Zeit in der Sie in Breslau evakuiert waren, auf dem?
HD: Bauernhof.
PS: Ja, auf dem Bauernhof Ihres Onkels, wenn ich mich nicht irre.
HD: Ja, ja, der war da Gutsinspektor, wie man das nannte, und da habe ich natürlich die besten Erinnerungen. Weil, ich konnte dann auf dem Trekker mitfahren, ich habe gesehen wie Viehhaltung war, das funktionierte aber, Sie interessieren sich ja für die politischen Dinge, da weiss ich nur eins: das ich meiner Mutter Ärger bereitet habe, warum? Ich bin dort natürlich in die Schule gegangen und die Lehrerin in der Dorfschule die war eine stramme Parteigängerin, sie trug auf ihrer Bluse immer das grosse, relativ grosse Parteiabzeichen, das erinnere ich, und nun kam ich als Berliner in diese Dorfjugend. Und die Jungs die waren natürlich neugierig oder man, mutmass, ‘na, der kommt aus Berlin’ undsoweiter, und da ich hatte wohl zu der Zeit eine ziemlich grosse Klappe, wei man heute sagt, das heisst also als Berliner sowieso und ich erzählte wohl immer lustig von den Bomben in Berlin, zum Beispiel das wir Bombensplitter gesucht haben. Wir Berliner Jungs, jeder hatte eine Zigarrenkiste hier und wenn der Angriff vorüber war am nächsten Tag, dann ging man über die Strasse wenn in der Gegend was eingeschlagen war und man suchte Bombensplitter. Da hatte man einen ganzen Kasten voll und das tauschte man aus, also solche Sachen. Oder diese Kondensstreifen, weiss nicht ob Sie wissen was das ist, die Engländer die warfen so’n Streifen ab, die waren aussen Schwarz und innen silberig, die sollten das Funkmessgerät meines Bruders praktisch irritieren. Und die Dinger landeten wie so’n leichter Regen oder Schneefall auf der Strasse und die sammelten wir ja ein, das sollte man immer abgeben aber das haben wir natürlich nicht immer gemacht. Und diese Geschichten, und von den Bomben und so, wichtigtuerisch, wie man als Kind ist, muss ich wohl erzählt haben. Jedenfalls kam dann, eines Tages, entweder war es der Dorfgendarm oder der Parteimensch aus dem kleinen Dorf zu meiner Mutter oder bestellte sie ein und ermahnte sie, sie solle doch ihr Erziehungsauftrag wahrnehmen, denn der Junge erzählt hier defätistische Sachen. Ja, das hat er nicht zu machen, das hat er zu unterlassen. Also nun kam meine Mutter und dann kam der Onkel dazu, der hatte zwei Jungs die waren im Krieg, an der Front und der sagte: ‘Um Jottes willen erzähl ja nicht wat, det gibt nur Ärger!’. Also, mir, ich kriegte als Kind den berühmten Maulkorb verpasst, des war so’ne Sache. Am sonsten war natürlich, im Nachhinein ist es mir erst auch deutlicher geworden, das wir auch Fremdarbeiter hatten und in der Gegend waren es natürlich überwiegend Polen, die dort auf dem Gut arbeiteten, die waren aber normal untergebracht, ich kann mich nicht erinnern dass sie in irgendeinerweise jetzt drangsaliert wurden. Ich hatte sogar einen Polnischen kleinen Jungen mit dem ich spielte, also das war für mich, also dieser Gegensatz, Deutsche Polen und so war da nicht spürbar. Habe ich nicht erlebt, ja wir waren da also ganz friedlich. Ich habe übrigens jetzt nach vielen Jahren den Weg da zweimal angetreten nach Breslau und hab die alten Stätten besucht, hab auch das Haus wieder gefunden aber ich konnte mich leider nicht so verständlich machen was ich eigentlich wollte, ich wollte eigentlich nur wiedersehen und eigentlich mit den Leuten die jetzt da wohnen ein Versöhngespräch oder überhaupt ein Gespräch führen aber ich hatte dafür, die waren abständig, zurückhaltend, vielleicht im Hinterkopf den Gedanken, der will da einen Anspruch gelten machen oder was, hatte ich ja gar nicht und sie würden die Bude nicht [unclear], ja, bloss es war ein Stück Erinnerung und ein Stück Heimat. Und da meine Mutter aus Schlesien kommt, habe ich ohnehin mal das Gefühl, ich müsste unbedingt mal nach Breslau, ich bin, vielleicht wäre vielleicht auch ein guter Schlesier geworden. Also eine gewisse, ein gewisses Interesse für die verlorenen Gebiete im Osten. Ja, das war also so in Juliusburg, am sonsten sagte ich ja auf dem Bauernhof und das Leben war absolut friedlich. Ach, eins vielleicht noch, das fiel mir, das erinnere ich auch, da kamen mal die beiden Jungs von den Gutsverwalter, der eine war bei der SS, der andere war bei der Luftwaffe, und ich vermute also dem Gespräch nach waren die an der Ostfront, das heisst also in Russland, und mich schmissen sie aus dem Zimmer raus, also die müssen irgendwelche Geschichten erzählt haben, die nicht für Kinder ungeignet waren. Ergebnis war nur, nachdem auch meine Mutter den Befehl kriegte, in der Umgebung Schützengraben zu ziehen, also aussschöppen, Ende ’44. Muss man es mal überlegen, also die Kriegsheeresführung wusste was auf sie zukommt, aber der Bevölkerung der ist es nicht gesagt worden, und meine Mutter musste Schützengraben ausheben. Und da kam das Gespräch auf Onkel August, so hiess der Onkel, der sagte eines Tages mal: ‘Na ja, also, es macht kene Jedanken, wenn die Russen kommen, dan gehen wir über die Oder’, wir waren also, wenn mann jetzt flussabwärts blickt, waren wir rechts der Oder. ‘Dann gehen wir nach links auf die linke Seite in Breslau, und dann’, und der Satz der ist mir im Ohr geblieben, ‘dann hauen wir die Russen zurück’. Na ja, wie es ausgegangen ist wissen wir. Wir haben den Kontakt nach dem Krieg nie wieder aufnehmen können, ich weiss nicht ob die Familie es überlebt hat, was aus den Jungs geworden ist und der Gedanke nun mit den Leuten darüber mal zu reden und so ein bisschen Vergangenheitsbewältigung zu machen, der ist leider gescheitert, ich hatte den Eindruck, die wollten nicht, und, na ja, kann man nichts machen. Also, das zum Thema Schlesien.
PS; Also, ich wollte Sie, wir sind also fast zu Ende, nur noch ein Paar, ein Paar Fragen.
HD: Ja.
PS: Sie hatten mir erzählt das Sie mit Ihrer Mutter Zeit im Bunker verbracht haben.
HD: Ja.
PS: Das war noch in Berlin.
HD: Das war in Berlin, ja.
PS: Welch Erinnerungen haben Sie? Also Sie waren nur mit Ihrer Mutter? Waren da auch andere Familien? Wo war dieser Bunker?
HD: Der Bunker war hier in der Müllerstrasse, also kennen Sie Berlin, sagt Ihnen das überhaupt was?
PS: Ja. Ja, ja.
HD: Ja. Also, Müllerstrasse, das ist so im Nordwesten und das ist ein grosser Strassenbahnhof gewesen, der hatt den Krieg auch überstanden, da ist wenig oder gar nichts kaput gegangen und unter den Hallen der Strassenbahn, da ist während des Krieges dieser Bunker gebaut worden. Zwar ein Tiefbunker und in den musste man dann durch die Bunkerschleusen, diese riesen Eisentüren, vorne war die Luftschutzwarte, die hatten immer so einen besonderen Helm auf und irgendwie Gasmasken umgehängt, das war immer sehr martialisch und da sind wir durchgewackelt und da wurden uns die Raume zugewiesen und da lagen, waren da Pritschen so auf, die Luft war so wie im Bunker so ist, und man sass still und wir Kinder schliefen, und morgens da gab’s auch kein Fruhstück im Bunker oder so was sondern dann wenn die Sonne oder wenn das Licht wieder da war dann, wie gesagt, wurden wir dann geweckt und standen wieder auf und gingen zurück und wir hatten also einen halben Kilometer Weg ungefähr zu hinter, zu absolvieren und dann die Frage: steht’s oder steht’s nicht? Man merkte das im Bunker nichts, kann mich nicht erinnern das man irgendwie, das der Bunker gewackelt hat, wenn da die Bomben einschlugen oder was. Wie gesagt, bei uns im Norden in dieser Ecke, im Afrikanischen Viertel, waren die Schäden nicht so gross. Die Gegend war also nach dem Krieg relativ schnell enttrümmert oder entrümpelt oder die Strassen wieder zugänglich, wir hatten da also ein gewisses Glück muss ich sagen. Erst wenn man dann mal später in die Innenstadt fuhr, dann sah mal eigentlich, das wahre Ausmaß der Zerstörung, da oben war es nicht. Wir hatten ja die grosse Kaserne neben uns, die damals hiess sie Hermann-Göring Kaserne, war eine Luftwaffenkaserne die für uns beim Einmarsch der Russen natürlich die Quelle für Nahrungsmittel war, plötzlich war keine Kontrolle mehr da, die Menschen, wir stürmten also in diese Kaserne und die Läger waren voll mit Lebensmitteln und mit, ich bin durch Kaffebohnen gewatet, oder waren’s Erbsen, jedenfalls wir nahmen mit was wir mitnehmen konnten und raümten da aus und dann zog ja erst die Briten ein. Denn Berlin war ja erstmal von den Russen ganz besetzt, dann kamen im Juli die Amerikaner und die Briten nach und der spätere Französische Sektor wurde ja erstmal Englisch. Die Franzosen kamen ja erst im August zu uns. Und die Engländer haben sich dadurch beliebt gemacht bei uns, das es hiess, neben der Kaserne werden auch unsere Blöcke für die Soldaten benötigt und es bestand die Gefahr, das wir aus den Wohnungen müssten. Es ist aber Gottseidank dann nicht eingetreten. Aber eine zweite Sache erinnere ich noch, die Engländer forderten auf die Leute sollen ihre Klaviere abgeben. Und wie meine Mutter das geschaft hat, das sie die Leute also entweder keine Angaben gemacht hatt oder was, wir haben unser Klavier behalten. Vorher hatten die Russen ja schon unsere Radios abgeholt oder mussten wir abgeben, Telefone mussten wir abgeben und, wie gesagt, das Klavier haben wir ja behalten und die Engländer haben also darauf verzichtet, uns da zu vereinnahmen. Aber dadurch das die nebenan in der Kaserne waren, muss wohl das Starkstromkabel bei uns immer durchgegangen sein, jedenfalls wir hatten, trotz aller Stromsperren und dergleichen Dinge, hatten wir eigentlich während des ganzen Krieges und auch danach immer Strom. Jetzt war die Frage, Strom wurde kontingentiert, man durfte ja nicht so viel, Kraftwerke gaben das ja gar nicht her. Und nun war wieder mein Bruder, der da beim Militär pfiffig wurde und man fand dann Möglichkeiten um den Zähler zu überbrücken. Oder viele Leute gingen dann abends in den Keller um sich was warm zu machen, auf Kosten des Hauses, and die Leitung der Kellerbeleuchtung rangehen, all solche Geschichten nicht. Also, insofern, viele Erinnerungen auch an die Briten und dann, wie gesagt, kamen die Franzosen, insofern haben wir alle drei Besatzungsmächte kennengelernt.
PS: Hatten Sie Angst als Junge in den Bunker, ich meine, können Sie sich erinnern an die Gefühle die Sie hatten?
HD: Neine, ganz im Gegenteil, das war sicher. Der Bunker vermittelte das Gefühl der Sicherheit. In dem Bunker hatten wir keine Angst. Es gab ja noch den grossen Hochbunker am Bahnhof-Gesundbrunnen, da steht ja noch’n Stück, ist ja übrig geblieben weil man’s nicht sprengen konnte wegen der Eisenbahn, und da waren wir auch mal da als wir mal aus der Stadt kamen und vom Bombenangriff überrascht wurden, gingen wir dort in den Bunker und haben dort den Bombenangriff überlebt. Das merkte man ja nicht, das Ding bewegte sich ja gar nicht, also die waren so stabil. Der Bunker bot absolute Sicherheit und wir kamen auch rein, es war ja, man hat manchmal im Nachhinein Geschichten gelesen, das Menschen rein wollten und der Bunker der war überfullt, die haben dann keinen mehr reingelassen oder so, dass habe ich nicht erlebt.
PS: Ihre Mutter gab auch nicht den Eindruck, Angst zu haben?
HD: Nö, eigentlich nicht. Na wir sind ja hingegangen weil uns die Bunker im Grunde genommen Schutz gewährten, nicht?
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an die Bombardierung des 3 Februars? Sie sprachen auch etwas von Phosphorbomben.
HD: Ja, die Phosphorbomben, dass muss in Kreuzberg, muss dass ganz schlimm gewesen sein, wo die Ritterstrasse, so hiess damals, war mit sehr viel Textilfabbrikken und Hinterhof Etagen und da ist ja also tabula rasa gemacht und ein ganzes Stadtviertel ist zerstört worden. Und wie gesagt diese Phosphorbomben mit der, mit den schrecklichen Brandschäden und wer also Phosphor, wenn die Bombe plazte und man kriegte Phosphor auf die Haut, das war ja nicht zu löschen, nicht? Unter Wasser ging die Flamme aus und kam wieder Sauerstoff ran, dann ging das wieder los. Das haben wir insofern, den 3 Februar insofern gesehen weil über Berlin, das ist eigentlich unvorstellbar, aber, eine Wolke hochging, eine schwarze Wolke, wir sind, wir konnten, wir hatten so eine höheren Punkt bei da uns Park und da konnte man und da sind wir raufgegangen als Kinder und konnten über Berlin diese Riesenwolke sehen. Da brannte ja nun das Schloss, die Oper und die ganze Innenstadt ist ja da an einem Tag kaputt gegangen. Das ist ja das was im Nachhinein für uns Leute hier unverständlich war, warum man nicht, warum das Stauffenberg Attentat zum Beispiel nicht geklappt hatt, warum man nicht längst kapituliert hatte, diese sinnlosen Zerstörungen am 3 Februar, 26. Oder Potsdam, wennse darann denken, 14, 15 April ist Potsdam bombardiert worden für nichts und wieder nichts und der Gedanke den Bomber Command ja warscheinlich hatte, ja den Willen der Bevölkerung zu brechen oder, sagen wir mal, Aufstände zu provozieren, das ist ja nicht aufgegangen wie wir ja nun im Nachhinein wissen. Die Bevölkerung ist ja nicht, wir haben ja nicht jetzt gegen die bösen Nazis geschimpft sondern der Feind kam aus der Luft, nicht? So war ja warscheinlich die Denke damals.
PS: Ja, gerade Sie haben einen, sagen wir, Anstoß gegeben auf, sagen wir, die letzte Frage und das ist eben wie Sie, wie Sie eben damals, was Sie damals dachten von den Bombardierungen und auch wie Sie das heute, siebzig Jahre spater, sehen.
HD: Ja, also, wie soll ich sagen, also?
PS: Sie hatten mir, also wenn Sie mir, hätten sie noch etwas hinzuzufügen auf das was Sie mir eben gesagt haben, wie Sie das damals sahen?
HD: Ja, na ja, ich war damals Kind, also wir waren als die, es waren ja so ungefähr, wir sind hier am 24 April befreit worden und in den letzten Tagen gab es also keine Angriffe. Ich glaube Potsdam so am 15 das war das letzte und in dem Moment wo die Bombenangriffe aufhörten und der Krieg zu Ende war, man hatte zwar andere neue Ängste, nicht? Das hing nun wieder mit der Roten Armee zusammen aber da hatte man ja doch das Gefühl, Gott sei dank, dieser Terror, wie man sagte, der Luftterror von oben ist zu Ende. Also das man nun jetzt liebevoll dachte, die Amerikanischen und Englischen Bomber wollen lediglich die Nazis beseitigen, nee, nee, nee, es waren natürlich die Verluste in der Bevölkerung und in der Substanz. Und wenn man heute nun nach Syrien guckt, wie desselbe wiedermachen, diese sinnlosen Zerstörungen, ja, also, wir, die Bombardierung hat offensichtlich den Wiederstand, ja, sogar noch gefördert, nicht? Im eingangs sagte ich ja die Klassenkameraden von meinem Bruder, da waren ja welche bei die haben ja, die wollten ja noch mit der Panzerfaust wollten die ja noch den T34 ja zerstören, nicht? [coughs] [unclear] Entschuldigung [coughs].
PS: Kein Problem.
HD: [coughs] Ja, Herr Schulze, im Augenblick fällt mir nichts weiter ein.
PS: Ja, eben, sagen wir jetzt die allerletzte Frage.
HD: Ja.
PS: Wie sehen Sie, wenn Sie zurückblicken auf die Zeit, jetzt siebzig Jahre nach dem Krieg, wie sehen Sie das, welche Meinungen haben Sie von dem, von den Bombardierungen, von den, welche Gedanken kommen Sie ihnen jetzt?
HD: [coughs] Ja, also, ein Gedanke der mich immer oder uns immer beschäftigt hatt war eben, dass die Bombardierung der Zivilbevölkerung sinnlos war. Man hatte Verständnis, oder hat bestimmt Verständnis gehabt, wenn also Bahnanlagen, Industrienanlagen, das Ruhrgebiet zerstört werden, aber nun gab’s ja tatsächlich und das ist ja durch die Politik im Kalten Krieg so ein bisschen bestätigt worden, als würden in Berlin zum Beispiel bestimmte Areale nicht bombardiert worden sein, nämlich die die unter Umständen in Amerikanischen Besitz waren also AEG am Gesundbrunnen, da ist nichts kaputt gegangen und schräg rüber die Wohnquartiere sind zielgerichtet kaputt gemacht worden. Man konnte sich das als Kind nicht vorstellen oder überhaupt nicht vorstellen das man bombardieren kann, so punktmässig. Oder dann kommt die andere Geschichte hinzu von Wiesbaden, sagt man immer, die Amerikaner haben Wiesbaden nicht kaputt gemacht weil sie wussten dass sie da eines Tages ihre Komandozentrale unterbringen und so ist also Wiesbaden nicht kaputt gegangen aber nebenan die Stadt Mainz die ist natürlich zerstört worden. Also so’ne Sachen hat man schon im Nachhinein bemerkt und gelesen und man hatte damals also das Gefühl man soll persönlich getroffen werden und das empfanden, gluab ich, viele Leute als, ja, will nicht sagen ungerecht, wir haben ja den Krieg angefangen, also von Recht kann man da nicht sprechen aber zumindest im Ergebnis nicht, hat’s nichts gebracht, ja?
PS: Und das ist auch das was Sie sagen sie auch heute denken.
HD: Das allerdings ja. Das muss man immer noch dazu rechnen, ja. Sie wissen ja, der Zeitzeuge ist der Feind des Historikers, wie man so schön heisst. Der Historiker sieht das alles aus seiner Kenntnis und der Zeitzeuge, der bringt natürlich dann immer noch persönliches mit rein. Herr Schulze, was kann ich noch für Sie tun?
PS: Ich habe, sagen wir, nur eine einzige Frage noch. Und das ist wirklich die allerletzte.
HD: Bitte [laughs].
PS: Ich habe Sie schon [unclear] in Betracht genommen.
HD: Nein, nein, das macht, ist interessant mal über die Dinge zu reden.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich ob einige Ihrer Verwandten Erinnerungen an die Zeit haben? Ich weiss nicht ob Ihre Grosseltern oder so etwas miterlebt haben. Das hatt nichts mit den Bombarderierungen zu tun, vom alltäglichen Leben in Berlin.
HD: Das alltägliche Leben, meine, also man hat normalerweise vier Grosseltern, die eine Seite, die Väterliche Seite, lebte in Moabit und da ist die Oma, die hat das mitterlebt, wenn die einkaufen ging, das die Menschen, und zwar hier die Jüdischen Mitbürger, in der Levetzow-Allee zusammen, oder versammelt wurden und dort war, stand wohl auch eine Synagoge und von dort in Kolonnen losmarschierten. Meine Oma will das gesehen haben, will das auch als tragisch oder was auch immer empfunden haben, aber es war halt so eine bleiernde Stimmung in der, das man immer sagte darüber darf man nicht reden oder man kann da auch nicht protestieren es, also meine Oma hat’s gesehen, man kann also nicht sagen wir haben nichts gewusst. Meine anderen Grosseltern, die lebten in Charlottenburg, die sind ausgebombt worden, die hatten dann eine Laube draussen in Britz, also im Süden Berlins und haben dort den Rest ihrer Tage dort verlebt. Mein Onkel, wie gesagt, ist am Kaiserdamm ausgebombt worden und hat, und die Unterlagen habe ich noch, man ging dann zum Bezirksamt und liess sich bescheinigen das man ausgebombt ist und dann kriegte man eine Unterlage und da, und den, einen Bezugsschein für ein Messer, eine Gabel, ein Kochtopf undsoweiter. Und man musste auch aber gleichzeitig eine Verlustanzeige machen und da gibt’s dann natürlich nur die bösesten Geschichten, also bei meinem Onkel steht auch das er zwei Perser Teppiche bei sich hatte und meine Tante hatte einen Edelpelz und irgendwelche Leute haben mir dann mal ausgerechnet, sowiel Perser Teppiche hatt’s auf der ganzen Welt nicht gegeben wie plötzlich nach den Bombenangriffen hier bemängelt worden. So wie wir es ja auch erlebt haben wenn man unterwegs als Turist bestohlen wurde, weiss ich, irgendwo, und Photoapparat weg, dann war das bei der Polizei, immer eine Leika nicht, und immer ein bisschen höher wert, ja. Also, diese Sachen, an die erinnere ich mich natürlich. Und vor allen Dingen wie mein Onkel, der nun Betriebsleiter war und hier mit den Russen auch seine Schwierigkeiten hatte, dann seinen eigenen Betrieb abbauen musste, weil das dann nach Russland alles transportiert wurde, das war schon, aber das ist ja nicht jetzt Ihr Thema.
PS: Gut also, ich, das war alles sehr sehr sehr interessant, was Sie mir erzählt haben und ich würde jetzt damit aufhören, ich glaub ich habe Sie schon genug in Betracht genommen.
HD: Sie können jederzeit wieder anrufen wenn Ihnen etwas einfällt.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Hubert Draegert
Description
An account of the resource
Hubert Draegert remembers his wartime experiences, first in Berlin and then as an evacuee at his uncle’s farm near Wroclaw. He mentions the bombing of the Berlin State Opera and the repeated efforts made to rebuild the gutted building. He remembers the 3 February 1945 bombing, stressing how his neighbourhood was not heavily damaged. He tells of his brother who was drafted as a Luftwaffenhelfer with all his classmates. As a radio operator, his brother listened to the BBC and was therefore always up-to-date on the course of war. Herr Draegert mentions various episodes of his own life as an evacuee: Polish foreign workers; his mother digging trenches as the Russians approached; being reproached by a police officer for spreading defeatist stories at school. He remembers collecting bomb fragments and strips of tinfoil window so as to trade them with other children. He mentions his father working in a Jewish bank before being drafted into the Navy in 1943 and his father's subsequent time as a prisoner of war near Leeds, where he was treated humanely. Hubert Draegert reminisces about the time spent in the shelter with his mum, stressing the sense of safety it provided. He describes the effects of incendiaries on civilians and emphasises how the bombing didn’t turn the population against the regime and were therefore a failure, although factories and transport hubs were, in his eyes, legitimate targets. He describes blackout measures; food rationing; firefighting with domestic implements; and the opportunistic behaviour of civilians. He recollects British soldiers impounding pianos. He reflects on the bombing war, stressing the gap between scholarly interpretations and eyewitness accounts. He emphasises that targets were not always chosen according military priorities but rather the Allies’ post-war agenda.
Format
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01:13:00 audio recording
Language
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deu
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Berlin
Poland--Wrocław
Germany
Poland
Temporal Coverage
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1945-02-03
1943
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2018-02-09
Type
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Sound
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ADraegertH180209
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
firefighting
home front
incendiary device
Luftwaffenhelfer
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
shelter
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/181/2011/ASuchenwirthR160730.2.mp3
9afd40e8a7bfb43fb852cb3f8043e75f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/181/2011/ASuchenwirthR160731.2.mp3
3beb82a73fdef1baaffe0d0fe10015b0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Suchenwirth, Richard
R M A Suchenwirth
R Suchenwirth
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Suchenwirth, R
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Dr Richard Suchenwirth, who served as a Flakhelfer in Pasing, a district of Munich.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AH: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewers are Lioba Suchenwirth and Anna Hoyles and the interviewee is Richard Suchenwirth.
LS: Ok.
RS: ja.
LS: So how do you wanna start?
AH: Ehm, can you tell me a bit about your early life?
LS: Möchtest Du was erstmal über deine Kindheit und vielleicht dein Elternhaus erzählen?
RS: Ja. Mein Vater war ja ein großer Anhänger Großdeutschlands und er schrieb eine Deutsche Geschichte mit 700,000 Auflagen und. Aber er war eigentlich, und er kannte auch Hitler persönlich ganz gut, aber er war tief skeptisch und ganz gegen den Krieg. Und dann schrieb er noch Dramen, Dido und Karl den Fünften. Und sonst. Ja, ich bin aufgewachsen in Pasing, weitgehend in Pasing, bei München, ein kleiner Ort der am Rand von München, uralter Ort, und da besuchte ich auch ein Gymnasium und da hieß es im Februar 1943, im Februar 1943, wir müssten, [unclear]
LS: Ihr müsst im Februar ‚43, hieß es,
RS: Wir müssten zur Flak, weil in Russland so viele Soldaten gefallen oder verletzt waren, mussten wir ‘43, im Februar ‘43, zur Flak.
LS: Wie alt warst du da?
RS: Da war ich alt fünfzehn Jahre und drei Monate. Und da bin ich also an die Kanonen gekommen, an die Flak-Kanonen 8,8. Wir waren bei der „4/456“, „4/456“. Das war die erste Flak-Batterie bei der ich tätig war, „4/456“.
LS: Was habt ihr gemacht?
RS: Ich hab versucht München vor Angriffen zu bewahren, vor Luftangriffen zu bewahren, aber Erfolg war nicht gut. Im März da war ein großer Angriff auf München, da gab’s viele hundert, dreihundert Tote, über dreihundert Tote, und alle wurden heimgeschickt, ne, zu schauen ob bei ihnen was passiert war. Alle kamen vergnügt zurück, es war nichts passiert. Ich bin nicht nach Hause gegangen weil ich, war ja nicht in München direkt, sondern in Pasing, und dann wurde ich angerufen, soll sofort kommen, die Hochschule, in der mein Vater tätig war, ist abgebrannt.
LS: Und damit auch die Dienstwohnung.
RS: Und damit die Dienstwohnung. Und ich kam also im März 1943 kam ich also Heim, lagen noch unsere Möbeln, waren großteils gerettet worden, standen alle auf der Straße. Es lag Schnee, und ich blieb dann Paar, ein, zwei Stunden hab bisschen mitgeholfen und dann bin ich zurückgegangen. Meine Eltern zogen dann hierher nach Breitbrunn, ein ganz altes Haus, das wurde erst später neu gebaut.
LS: Und sind Leute damit zu Schaden gekommen?
RS: In der Hochschule sind zwei Leute gestorben, einer, beim [unclear] durch Möbel im Treppenhaus, ein andere, ein junger Student, der kam nicht mehr raus, lag im Krankenzimmer. Und er war, im Haus war eine, eine, ach wie heißt die jetzt, eine Bombe eingeschlagen, eine, die erst später erst gezündet hat, die hat erst, nach Stunden hat die erst gezündet, eine, wie heißt die [unclear]
LS: Brandbombe.
RS: Eine Brandbombe ja, aber die hat einen bestimmten Namen. Und ist, war ausgelaufen, hatte oben das ganze Haus mit einem Schlag, brannte die Hochschule ab. Und dann sind wir, sind wir, mit einen Schlag war’s vorbei.
LS: Und als ihr bei der Flak wart, habt ihr auf Flugzeuge geschossen?
RS: Ja haben wir auf Flugzeuge geschossen, mit mehr oder weniger Erfolg, mit mehr oder weniger Erfolg.
LS: Und habt ihr noch was getroffen, oder?
RS: Vierzig Schüler waren wir, vierzig Schüler, und vierzig Schüler waren bei der Flak, und wir wurden da eingesetzt an Kanonen und an verschiedenen Geräten, wurden wir eingesetzt. Erste Zeit wurde ich [unclear] Bunker, habe ich in einem Bunker gearbeitet, das war nicht schlimm. Und auch später hatte ich eigentlich nie Angst. Abgeschossen habe sicher auch Flugzeuge aber nicht sehr viele. Sehr erfolgreich waren wir nicht. Da gab‘s den Witz: Was will ein Mensch zu Tode verurteilt werden? Was haben Sie am liebsten? Am liebsten will er von der Flak abgeschossen [laughs]
[LS explains the answers to AH]
RS: Eine Phosphorbrandbombe war das.
LS Phosphorbrandbombe.
RS: Eine Phosphorbrandbombe, die war explodiert und hat dann sich ausgedehnt und da eine gewisse Warme im Haus war, ist [makes a wooshing noise] abgebrannt.
[LS explains the asnwers to AH]
RS: Also mit fünfzehn Jahren wurde ich Luftwaffenhelfer. Der Kultusminister wollte es nicht haben, aber der Reichsjugendführer Axmann hat sich durchgesetzt und wir kamen zur Flak, mit fünfzehn Jahren zur Flak. Und dann waren wir in der Nähe von München, in Krailling, und dort ist aber uns nichts passiert, aber bei meiner alten, in, am Bodensee war eine Batterie mit Luftwaffenhelfern, da sind zwei, fast die Hälfte, über die Hälfte ist gestorben bei dem Angriff.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
LS: Und wie hast Du dich da gefühlt als du da eingezogen worden bist?
RS: Ich war sehr stolz, war sehr stolz. Dachte kann ich helfen, bisschen die Heimat zu verteidigen. Ich war sehr stolz, proud,
LS: Kann ich mir gar nicht vorstellen.
RS: I feel proud, very proud. Wir waren vierzig aus unser kleiner Schule, vierzig und alle, jeden Tag kam, ein oder zwei Lehrer kamen und unterrichteten unseren ersten Zeit, aber dann kamen sie nicht mehr weil das, hatte keinen Sinn mehr. Wir waren zu oft weg, nachts rausgerufen worden zur Abwehr und zur.
LS: Und wurdet ihr da, was wurde euch denn erzählt, was ihr machen musstet?
RS: Uns, ja [unclear] oft, unser Offizier war sehr nett und vernünftig, den Olan Hoffman, Hofbauer, der war sehr vernünftig und wir hatten auch nette alte Soldaten. Die meisten waren sehr nett, die meisten waren vernünftig. Die meisten wussten natürlich genau dass es nicht viel brachte, aber sie haben eben uns. Wir hatten, wir waren zu….Sechs Kanonen hatten wir zu betreuen. 8,8 cm, sechs 8,8 Geschütze, und die schossen dann immer in Gruppen die schossen dann immer in die Luft und versuchten die Flugzeuge abzudrängen und zu treffen. Viel getroffen haben wir nicht, einiges haben wir getroffen, aber viel getroffen haben wir nicht.
LS: Es waren Engländer, Amerikaner?
RS: Tagsüber Amerikaner. Da kamen die Liberator und die, Liberator war die eine große Maschine. Und nachts kamen die Engländer mit Lancaster und solchen Maschinen an und nachts warfen die ihre Bomben und nachts und die Amerikaner am Tag. Und dann sind wir raus, und nach ungefähr einem Jahr sind wir verlegt worden nach Senftenberg in der Niederlausitz, also oberhalb von Sachsen. Und dort hatten wir dann eine 10,5 Flak-Batterie. Aber wir haben geschossen in die Luft aber es war, kam nicht viel.
LS: Wie lange warst Du insgesamt bei der Flakbatterie, weißt Du das?
RS: Ich war dadurch das ich zum Schluss krank wurde ein halbes Jahr im Lazarett lag, war ich zwei Jahre bei der Flak.
LS: Am Schluss hattest Du Tuberkulose.
RS: Tuberkulose und Hepatitis.
LS: Hepatitis, durch Mangelernährung.
RS: Na ja, natürlich ansteckend.
LS: Aber du warst auch fast verhungert, hast Du gesagt.
RS: Dort, bei der Flak nicht, nein dort nicht. Und dann waren wir beim Lazarett in Senftenberg und war dort halbes Jahr gelegen und dann bin ich von dort nach Hause entlassen worden. Als der Krieg zu Ende war, war ich gerade siebzehn Jahre.
LS: Und als du nach Hause kamst, was hast du denn hier vorgefunden?
RS: Ja hier im Haus, das Haus war ja ganz anders gewesen. Dieses Zimmer hier das ist so alt, das ist über hundert Jahre alt dieses Zimmer. Und sonst waren meine Eltern, meine Großeltern, meine Eltern waren da, meine Großmutter war da, und der Vetter, der Neffe, Georg, Gerhard aus Wien waren da, war also alles proppenvoll, das Haus war proppenvoll mit Leuten.
LS: Aber da fehlte auch jemand, oder?
RS: Mein Bruder Harald ist schon, ist auch, noch im April, noch im März, noch einmal. Er wollte, hat den Amerikanern ergeben wollen und die Amerikaner haben alles an die Russen ausgeliefert. Er war in Altötting. Haben alle an die Russen ausgeliefert und der kam nie wieder zurück [unclear]
LS: Wie alt war der?
R.S.: Der war achtzehn ein halb, neunzehn, neunzehn.
LS: Und als er eingezogen war?
RS: Der war normal, sechzehn, siebzehn Jahre. Ich bin wesentlich jünger gewesen, aber.
LS: An Ruhr ist er gestorben.
RS: An Ruhr. Auf der Heimfahrt von Russland. ER war im Gefangenenlager in Russland und ein Freund der berichtete später noch, das er sich tapfer geschlagen hatte. Wenig, der war alles andere als ein Nazi, er war ganz gegen. Sein Leidensspruch war: Ubi bene, ivi patria. Wo‘s gut ist, das ist deine Heimat.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
RS: Und ich stand ja auch nicht gerade sehr positiv. Ich habe immer einen Schweitzer Sender gehört, einen Schweitzer Sender um Nachrichten zu bekommen. Die Englischen haben wir nicht gehört, zu der Zeit wollten wir nicht, wir wollten keine Feindsender hören.
[LS talks to AH]
RS: Beromünster, hießt der Sender. Beromünster in der Schweiz.
LS: Ach. Un der Englische? BBC?
RS: England haben wir nicht gehört.
LS: BBC? Habt ihr nicht gehört.
RS: Und da kam, war der Krieg zu Ende. Und als die ersten Amerikaner kamen, Amerikaner, fragte mein Vater: ‘Are we occupated?’. Und da antworteten die, zwei Amerikaner waren: ‘No, liberated!’ Und dann ist er drei Jahre lang eingesperrt worden.
LS: Warum ist er eingesperrt worden?
RS: Na ja, er hatte ja einen Hohen Rang bei der SA und war, und sein Buch war sehr verbreitet. Und er war Reichsredner. Und, und, war schon sehr dicht verbunden, obwohl er gar nicht wollte, mit Hitler sehr verbunden. War, ja?
LS: Aber er hat sich aus der Aktienpolitik irgendwann zurückgezogen?
RS: Ja, ja, aus der Aktienpolitik hatte er sich schon zurückgezogen, hat er sich zurückgezogen in Pasing damals, ‘36.
LS: Warum?
RS: Weil er Arbeit genug, andere Arbeit lag ihm mehr als aktiv Politik zu treiben. Und Hitler lag ihm gar nicht, Hitler war ihm sehr wenig sympathisch.
LS: Und das Antisemitische fand er auch nicht gut, oder?
RS: Na ja, also, er war ihm die Kirchenfeindlichkeit, es waren ja alle in der Kirche geblieben natürlich, Katholisch. Und er hatte auch Antisemitisch, wir haben nie eine Wort Antisemitisches von ihm gehört. Das verrückte war ja, als die, als, als, ‘40, die Deutsche Armee in Frankreich, England, Frankreich, Belgien und Holland einfiel, kam unser Dienstmädchen, die kam begeistert: „die Deutsche Kriegsfahne wehte über Rotterdam oder über [unclear]“, da sagte mein Vater, werde ich nie vergessen: „Die machen die gleiche Dummheit noch einmal“.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
LS: Er hatte doch ne, da ist gibt’s eine Episode die hast Du mal erzählt, die fand ich sehr spannend. Er hat eine Hitler-Büste geschenkt bekommen.
RS: Hat er ja gehabt, einziger war von Hitler. Also er hatte kein Bild von Ihm hängen, nur eine Büste und immer wenn er sich geärgert hat, kam ein Paar Mal vor, konnte er die Büste eine Ohrfeige geben.
LS: Abgewatscht.
RS: Abgewatscht. Und so sprach er vom Teppichbeisser Hitler. Er war sehr skeptisch Hitler gegenüber.
LS: Warum Teppichbeisser?
RS: Weil Hitler angeblich, in seinen Wutanfällen, sich auf den Boden geworfen haben soll und in einen Teppich gebissen haben soll.
LS: Und warum war Dein Vater so Großdeutsch, glaubst Du? Hatte es mit der eigenen Vertreibungsgeschichte zu tun?
RS: Nein, also, er war Großdeutsch 1930, wollte sich Österreich wirtschaftlich anschließen an Deutschland. Ein gemeinsames Zollabkommen. Und das haben die Amerikaner, haben die Franzosen und Engländer verhindert und das hat die anderen zur Weißglut getrieben. Sie wollten eben, Deutschland mit Österreich, wie vor 1866. Wie vor 1866 war Deutschland.
LS: Und dein Vater war Österreicher.
RS: Mein Vater war Österreicher. Wiener, Vienna. Ich bin auch Wiener, aber, ach, na ja.
LS: Und wie hat er Hitler kennengelernt?
RS: Er hatte ganz früh Hitler kennengelernt, 1922 schon.
LS: Als er noch in Österreich war [unclear] NSDAP [unclear].
RS: Ja….
LS: Und wie ist Dein Vater, wie ist er dazugekommen die Österreichische NSDAP zu gründen?
RS: Das war in der Politik. Die Politik florierte gerade und hat er das gemacht und ist dann bald ausgetreten aus der Partei.
LS: Ach so, ist er dann ausgetreten?
RS: Ein, zwei Jahre später ist er ausgetreten.
LS: Weist Du warum er ausgetreten ist?
RS: Na ja, er war an einer Jüdischen Schule tätig, die war fast ganz von Juden besetzt und dadurch kam er nicht an Staatsstelle. Und dann bekam er die Staatsstelle und dann ist er, war er glücklich. Paar Jahre ging es ganz gut. Er war an der Hochschule für Bau, Bauhochschule. Dann ist er eben auch nach England, nach Deutschland geflohen.
LS: Er musste fliehen weil die Arbeiterrevolution war in Wien, oder?
RS: Teilweise. Eine Revolution die von den Sozis. Aber auch weil eben die, kam auch diese kleine Nazigruppe, die Dolfuss erschossen hat, und dann ist er geflohen, über die Tschechei.
LS: Und ist er vor den Nazis auch geflohen?
RS: Nein, nein, nein, nein.
LS: Er ist vor den Arbeitern, vor der Arbeiterrevolution geflohen.
RS: Vor der Regierung.
LS: Vor der Regierung. Und die Regierung setzte sich zusammen…
RS: Christlich [unclear]
LS: OK. Und warum musste er fliehen? Weil er mit den Nazis auch zu tun hatte.
RS: Ja, ja, ja. Und dann kam er nach Deutschland, war er erst bei der Reichsschriftungskammer und dann hatte er die Hochschule in Pasing, wurde er Rektor und wurde 1942 aufgehoben und da ist er verbittert gewesen. Professor, Honorarprofessor der Universität war er noch.
LS: Und der Großvater ist über die Tschechei geflohen.
RS: Ja.
LS: War das aufregend, oder?
RS: [Unintelligible] Es sind viele geflohen.
LS: Ok war nicht.
RS: Nein.
LS: Und ihr seid mitgekommen?
RS: Wir sind später geholt worden, später nachgekommen, später nachgeholt worden, später erst.
LS: Und war der eigentlich auch im Ersten Weltkrieg, Großvater?
RS: Er war im Ersten Weltkrieg war er noch Leutnant.
LS: Und was hat er da gemacht? Wo war er da?
RS: Er war in Polen gegen die Russen und dann war er in Südtirol gegen die Italiener. Sette comuni, Sieben Gemeinden, zehn Gemeinden, da war eine kleine Deutsche Minderheit und da war er halt dort gewesen. Als [unclear] Offizier, als Nachrichtenoffizier.
LS: Als Spion?
RS: Nein, nein. Er war viel zu feige.
LS: Er war viel zu feige [laughs].
RS: Nein nein, er war kein Spion. Er hat überall [unclear], wie er glaubte, seine Pflicht erfüllt, gel.
LS: Und was ist nach dem Krieg mit ihm geschehen?
RS: Nach ‘45? War er drei Jahre interniert, erst bei den Amerikanern, dann bei den Engländern, da ging‘s ihn besser als uns. [laughs]
LS: Warum?
RS: Wurde gut ernährt und Zigaretten bekam, und er war Nichtraucher, bekam viel Zigaretten. Zigaretten war die Währung damals. Eine Zigarette fünf Mark.
LS: So viel! Und was hat er mit den Zigaretten gemacht?
RS: Hat [unclear] mir auch mitgegeben. Ich hatte eine Hose gehabt, die unten zugenäht war, so’ne Überfallhose, und die hatte, bis zum Knie steckte sie voller Zigaretten und voller solche Sachen.
LS: Und was hast Du mit den Zigaretten gemacht?
RS: Hab eingetauscht. Eine Schreibmaschine für dreißig Packungen Zigaretten.
LS: Und mit der Schreibmaschine hast Du deine Doktorarbeit dabei geschrieben?
RS: Auch ja.
LS: Und euch, wovon habt ihr gelebt nach den Krieg?
RS: Meine Mutter war ja aus einer Wohlhabenden Familie, und die hatte einen, war Teilhaberin einer Fabrik in Attendorn. Meine Mutter war nicht reich aber wohlhabend war sie gewesen. Die wollte gerne Medizin studieren, da musste ich Medizin studieren.
LS: [laughs] Aber die war eine der ersten Frauen die studiert haben in Deutschland, oder?
RS: Ja angefangen.
LS: Ja [unclear]
RS: Zwei Semester dann musste sie aufhören. Sollte Geld verdienen, weil sie heiraten wollte.
LS: Was hat sie da gemacht? gearbeitet?
RS: In einer Fabrik. In der Fabrik meines Großvaters.
LS: Und, von der Familie eine Tante ist auch bei einer Brandbombe umgekommen, oder?
RS: Zwei Großtanten sind umgekommen durch Brandbomben. Die Tante Lene in Nürnberg und Tante Agnes in [unclear]. Sie hat bis zum Schuss versucht die Bomben rauszuwerfen, die kleinen Bomben konnte man rauswerfen damals,
LS: Mit der Hand,
RS: Mit der Hand. Und die großen Bomben, gegen die waren wir machtlos.
LS: [talks to AH] Wie alt war sie da, ungefähr?
RS: 72.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
RS: [unclear] Hatten wohl noch… hatten wohl noch nach, den letzten Kriegstagen noch schwer beschädigt und, nicht, nicht, unser Haus nicht. Das Haus mit den Großeltern nicht.
LS: Und dann kamen die Amerikaner hierher,
RS: Die Amerikaner, ja.
LS: Die haben gesagt ihr seid befreit worden [laughs],
RS: Ja.
LS: Und haben die dann euer Haus abgenommen oder wie war das?
RS: Was? Das hier?
LS: Hier dieses Haus hier.
RS: Nein, das war so ein schäbiges Haus gewesen, aus sieben Teilen bestehend, wollte keiner haben.
LS: Und die, aber die Franzosen, waren hier eine Zeit?
RS: Die Franzosen waren, die Kriegsgefangenen waren sehr anständig zu uns und die, dann kamen so Plünderer in Pseudouniform und die plünderten alles was gut und brauchbar war.
LS: Was haben sie mitgenommen, zum Beispiel?
RS: Schreibmaschine, Radioapparat, Fotoapparat [unclear]
LS: Und haben die euch bedroht mit Waffen oder..?
RS: Mit Waffen bedroht nicht direkt, sie wollten dass ich das rauftrage zum Auto, das wollte ich nicht und da hat meine Mutter sich da vor mich geworfen und sagte: ‘aber er ist krank, TBC’ und hat es selber raufgetragen. Die Franzosen haben, die Gefangenen waren gut, die waren nett. [unclear] Die Gefangenen standen sehr gut.
LS: Und, Du hattest, also waren Französische Kriegsgefangene hier auch? Hast Du sie kennengelernt?
RS: Ja hier auch.
LS: Die haben hier als Erntehelfer gearbeitet?
RS: Haben bei den Bauern gearbeitet, ja. Ungefähr zwanzig. Die wohnten dann oben in einer [unclear], später. Und da kam abends, kam immer einer, einer zog sich mühsam eine Deutsche Uniform an und fragte; ‘seid‘s alle da?’. Da schrie einer, einer musste immer Oui schreien. Dann war‘s gut. Alle andere waren nicht da, waren unterwegs irgendwo. Nicht alle, aber viele waren unterwegs.
LS: Und was haben sie gemacht?
RS: Freundinnen hatten sie irgendwo.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
RS: War so nicht so ganz ernst der Krieg da.
LS: Und da waren Russische Kriegsgefangene hier auch.
RS: Die Russischen Kriegsgefangene, bei der Flak hatten wir welche. Die mussten die schlechten Arbeiten machen. Zehn hatten wir in der Batterie ungefähr. Zehn Russische Kriegsgefangenen haben uns bei der Flak geholfen.
LS: Du hast so eine Bärenfigur irgendwo.
RS: Ja, ja, das hat, hat ein Russe hat es gemacht, ein Russe hat ihn geschnitzt. Und wo liegt es, weiss es nicht.
LS: Im Schrank.
RS: Ja, ja, richtig.
LS: Und das haben die getauscht für Essen oder für was?
RS: Gegen Brot, gegen Brot.
LS: Hatten die Hunger?
RS: Ja, Hunger, viel Hunger.
LS: Die?
RS: Russen. Es war keiner verhungert. Einer war ausgerissen, der soll erschossen worden sein, habe ich gehört. Nie selber gesehen, auch nie selber gehört. Nach dreisig, vierzig Jahren im Krieg habe ich gehört von einen der bei der Batterie als Luftwaffenhelfer war [unclear]
LS: Und warum hatten die so Hunger? Gab es nicht so viel, oder [unclear]?
RS: Wir hatten alle, die Rationen wurden alle kleiner, aber für die Russen wurden sie noch kleiner. Also gut ging’s ihnen nicht. Und da, haben wir das gemacht, gegen Ringe gemacht und solche Sachen. Und haben dann Getauscht gegen Brot, gegen. Gut mir noch genug gegen Ende des Krieges und Lazarett war js ein halbes Jahr und [unclear]
LS: Wie hat sich denn dein Vater nach dem Krieg gefühlt, oder wie? Hatte er das Gefühl, das er sozusagen, einen historischen Beitrag geleistet hat für diesen Krieg, oder wie?
RS: Ne, er war fester Meinung, er hat ja schon längst angefangen, Dramen zu schreiben, im Krieg schon, eine über Dido, eine über Karl den Fünften, und hat geschrieben, geschrieben, geschrieben. Aber er durfte ja nach 1945 nichts mehr publizieren, und da war’s vorbei. Und er hat dann, aber die Amerikaner haben ihm weitergeholfen und haben ihn arbeiten lassen in Ameri, in Hamburg und in Karlsruhe.
LS: Und seine Bucher wurden noch auf Englisch publiziert, gel, denn in Deutschland durften sie nichts, aber in Amerika schon.
RS: Ja, ja, drei Bücher wurden auf Amerikanisch, auch nach seinem Tod.
LS: Ach, nach seinem Tod wurden wieder welche.
RS: Ja, ja.
LS: Und Großvater hat auch über die Luftwaffe geschrieben.
RS: Er hat drei über die Luftwaffe, eines über die Führungsgestaltung der deutsche Luftwaffe und eines über die Entwicklung der Deutschen Luftwaffe. Drei Bücher hat er geschrieben. Ich hab sie alle hier liegen, kann sie auch zeigen, wenn Du willst.
LS: Die Bücher sind auf Englisch, gel?
RS: Auf Englisch. Auf Amerikanisch.
LS: Ja, Amerikanisch. Und, ehm, weil er doch die NSDAP in Österreich mitgegründet hat, hat er da eine Art historisches Schuldgefühl?
RS: Er mitgegrundet, die NSDAP gab es in Österreich vor der Deutschen NSDAP. Die Tschechische NSDAP. Und er hat sich nie als schuldig gefühlt. Aber er hat sich nie in diesem Sinn schuldig gefühlt.
LS: Und hast Du das Gefühl, wenn Du jetzt so geschichtliche Sachen sich entwickeln siesst, glaubst Du, man hätte eine Art Notbremse ziehen koennen? Also Du nicht..
RS: Also ich weiss nicht. Ich glaube die Geschichte laüft, wie sie laufen will. Mit den Engländer, also als Soldaten, waren Die Engländer sehr fair und anständig, als Soldaten. Sehr unangenehm waren Die Franzosen. Als Kriegs….[unclear] Und die Russen hatten selber nichts Gescheites, gel. Die waren sehr . Den Russen ging es sowieso schlechter als, na ja. Und die Amerikaner waren so neutral.
LS: Von den Amerikanern gab’s immer Kaugummi.
RS: Ja, die Amerikanischen…. Und es waren, Die Neger waren so furchtbar nett, die Neger.
LS: Aber.
RS: Man sagt nicht mehr Neger, ich weiß. Aber die waren so furchtbar nett und Kindern Schokolade geschenkt und Kaugummi und so. Und einer kam immer und ans Klavier sich gesetzt und hat ein Paar drei, vier Klinge und konnte nicht richtig spielen. Und meine Mutter hatte ihn Badehosen angezogen, genäht. Mutter hat ihm Badehosen genäht.
LS: Damit er irgendwie schwimmen gehen kann. Und wie hast Du Dich gefühlt, als Du quasi bombardiert worden bist? Hatte man da persönliche Gefühle auch oder nicht?
RS: ich hatte keine Angst. Ich saß ja im Bunker. Draußen saß…Angst hatte ich keine, nein.
LS: Und eine Wut, das die sozusagen in dein Land kommen?
RS: Nee, überhaupt keine Wut, überhaupt kein Gefühl gehabt. Ich hab’s ja erlebt aber nicht gesehen. Waren natürlich schlimme Sachen aber wir haben, na ja.
LS: Und als ihr das so gehört habt, zum Beispiel über Coventry und Dresden?
RS: Schlimm, ja war sehr schlimm. Coventry, das haben wir auch gehört die Geschichte. Die Bombardierungen von Coventry und dann noch die Angriffe auf London. Haben alle gehört und wir haben eigentlich innerlich Distanz… Weiter dann war der furchtbare Angriff auf Dresden. Und dann wurde eine Stadt wie Würzburg war sehr stark bombardiert. In den letzten Kriegstagen von den Amerikanern weitgehend zerstört. München war zu 40, zu 50% zerstört. München im Laufe von vielen Angriffen.
LS: Und stimmt das dass man die Weihnachtsbomben genannt hat, die Bomben, die da runtergefallen sind?
RS: Nein es ist so. Die den Flugzeugen voraus flogen nachts, flogen, wie heißen die den, jedenfalls, Mosquitos hießen die, die waren sehr, ganz schwach bewaffnet und warfen dann Leuchtkörper ab und dann wussten die wo sie bombardieren sollten. Und das war von Weihnachts….Die warfen das ab und dann wussten die wo die bombardieren sollte. Und die nachfolgenden Bomber haben sich nach den Mosquitos gerichtet und haben da die ganzen Flechtflächen geworfen.
LS: Warum hießen die Weihnachtsbäume?
RS: Nein, die hießen gar nicht so, die hießen nicht Weihnachtsbäume, sondern die waren wie einen wunderschönen Schmuck, hatten wunderschöne Farben. Christbaüme.
LS:Weihnachtslichter.
RS: Ja, so ungefähr. Die Mosquitos vor weg, leichte Flugzeuge, die warfen so kleine Bomben, Leuchtbomben, und dann wussten wir schon wohin, wohin der Angriff ging. Und dann waren… da kamen eben die Bomber, aber es sind schwere Bomben.
LS: Du hast gesagt du hast mal was unanständiges erlebt, als ihr ein Flugzeug mal erwischt habt.
RS: Wir hatten einen Amerikaner abgeschossen und da wollten von uns einige Leuten wollten den Piloten misshandeln, und der Erstleutnant, unser Offizier, trat sofort ein und bot ihm auch eine Zigarette an. Das fanden viele gut aber viele fanden das auch nicht gut.
LS: In wie fern misshandeln?
RS: Wie?
LS: Verprügeln, oder was?
RS: Ja ja.
LS: Also ihr habt ihn gefangen dann auch?
RS: Ja ja.
LS: Der kam mit dem Fallschirm abgesprungen und ihr habt den dann geschnappt.
RS: ja ja.
LS: Und habt ihr auf ihn geschossen wie er mit dem Fallschirm abgesprungen ist?
RS: Also ich persönlich nicht aber es gab einen Oberleutnant, den Namen will ich jetzt nicht nennen, der hat noch etliche Salven auf Ziehfallschirm, abspringenden Soldaten geschossen. Fand ich sehr unfair, ich konnte es aber nicht verhindern, ich war ein kleiner Jungen von fünfzehn Jahre.
LS: und wie fanden die anderen Jungen das, weisst Du das noch?
RS: Weiß ich nicht.
LS: Wurden so Sachen diskutiert, oder durfte man nicht diskutieren?
RS: Die wurden kaum diskutiert, weil das Leben war so ereignisreich, dass wir gar nicht dazu kamen, über die Dinge viel zu sprechen. War zu viel. Dann wurden wir verlegt nach Senftenberg, von München nach Senftenberg, 8,8 zur 10,5 Flak. Und dann bin ich [unclear] gekommen und das war anfangs, na ja. Hatte einen Italiener, der war sehr nett, und den habe ich gedolmetscht. Und er hat mir, na ja. Im Lazarett ging ganz friedlich zu. Was interessiert sie noch?
LS: Ich überlege.
RS: Nach dem Krieg habe ich noch studieren dürfen, studieren können. Gleich nach dem Krieg konnte ich studieren, hatte einen Förderungskurs, ich musste einen Abiturförderungskurs von vier Monaten und dann konnte ich studieren, habe ich angefangen zu studieren und von da an war alles wie gewöhnlich.
LS: Und du warst auch Mangel an Ernährung, zum Beispiel, oder?
RS: Essen, und essen hatten wir sehr wenig, sehr sehr wenig. Mein Vater unter Kriegsgefangenschaft meinem Bruder immer Päckchen mit trockenem Brot geschickt. Über zwanzig Päckchen hat er geschickt. Und meine Großmutter hat daraus Suppen gemacht. Und ich habe….. man merkte es gar nicht mehr, es ging so langsam. Mal wurde es immer weniger, immer weniger und dann haben wir gehungert. Dann habe ich versucht alle Kunstprodukte zu packen, hat mir aber nie geschmeckt, habe ich nie essen können.
LS: Was zum Beispiel?
RS: Zum Beispiel aus Leim und aus Haferflocken, ach aus, was in der Muhle so ubrig blieb.
LS: Holzspäne?
RS: Holzspäne nicht gerade, aber, aber…
LS: Die Spelzen vom Weizen.
RS: War nichts zu essen. aber. Leim war ja auch.
LS: [unclear] ?
RS: Jedenfalls vom Kunstegebilde. Hier gehungert und erst richtig. Und als ich noch…mit dem Studium fertig war, wog ich noch glaub ich siebzig Kilo, zehn Kilo hatte ich verloren ungefähr, zehn Kilo Gewichtsverlust aber es ging noch ganz gut. Zu der Zeit Kriegskrankenhaus wurde operiert…
LS: Hattet ihr Uniformen als Kindersoldaten?
RS: Natürlich, ja, ja. Luftwaffenhelferuniform. Ich habe auch…Leider liegt’s nicht hier oben. Sa ganz gut aus in so einer Uniform. Sollten wir immer HJ Binde tragen aber die haben wir nie getragen. Anfangs immer noch HJ am Arm als wir die Flak verlassen und Heimaturlaub und dann [unclear]
LS: Und warum?
RS: Wir wollten nichts mit HJ zu tun haben.
LS: Warum wolltet ihr nichts mit HJ zu tun haben?
RS: Weil es waren Soldaten.
LS: HJ waren die Kinder, waren die Jugendlichen.
RS: Ja ja.
LS: Und wie waren die Baracken wo ihr wohntet? Oder die Lager?
RS: Ich war in einer Baracke mit neun anderen in einem Zimmer, neun, später drei oder vier. Und da habe ich ein Mädchen kennengelernt, mit der ich noch vor wenigen Monaten telefoniert. Die ist inzwischen Urgroßmutter und ich werde auch bald vielleicht..
LS: Urgroßvater.
RS: Urgroßvater.
LS: Und dann war das ein bisschen für Dich manchmal so ein romantischer Abendteuer, so lauter Jugendliche zusammen? Keine Eltern….?
RS: Ja ja, war spannend, war interessant und spannend. [unclear] Ist keiner bei Fliegerangriffen gefallen. Später sind ungefähr ein viertel gefallen. Und wir waren, kein einziger ist zur Waffen-SS gegangen. Die waren nicht beliebt bei uns.
LS: Und hattet ihr Freizeit dann auch, als ich bei der Flak wart? Hat ihr so richtig zu Dienstzeiten quasi und dann am Wochenende dann heim?
RS: Es ging nicht, wir mussten bereit sein, die mussten kommen. Bei Fliegerangriffen mussten wir da sein. Aber wir waren natürlich, am Wochenende waren einer zu hause und ich war am Neujahr zu hause.
LS: Und durftet ihr am Nachmittag eure Eltern sehen oder so?
RS: Die kamen, natürlich besuchten uns. In der Flakstellung.
LS: Und habt ihr viel gelesen? Aber Du ließt ja immer so viel.
RS: Ich habe viel gelesen aber, natürlich haben wir viel gelesen und haben uns über vieles unterhalten. Aber…
LS: Und wie hat man sonst die Zeit so rumgebracht?
RS: Na ja, Wir machten ja Appell. Der schlimmste war der Vollzähligkeitsappell, das ganze Zeug was wir vom Militär hatten, mussten wir nehmen und um uns herumlegen und dann wurde gesagt „drei Paar Socken, zwei Paar, hier sind sie, alles in Ordnung, ein Hemd, ein Nachthemd’ und Sachen. Und jedenfalls…
LS: Und war es mal langweilig und hat ihr Karten gespielt?
RS: Karten gespielt. Karten nicht viel, aber wurde…. Gespielt.
LS: Und was hast Du gemacht?
RS: Alles mögliche. Vieles und uns unterhalten. Den Schweitzer Sender Beromünster habe ich gehört und da musste ich meinem Vater immer sagen was es Neues gibt und da mussten…
LS: Warum hat er ihn nicht gehört?
RS: Der konnte immer sagen: ‘ich habe keinen Sender’. Überzeugend.
RS: Und in der Schule sprachen wir darüber. Und ich sagte: ‘ich habe heute bei der Putzfrau, bei der Milchfrau das gehört’ und ich wusste wer die Milchfrau war, die hat auch Beromünster gehört.
LS: Und ihr hattet ein Dienstmädchen, und die war Überzeugte Nazi-Anhängerin?
RS: Die war Sozialdemokratin aus Wien, aus Attentan und dann Wien. Und als die Deutsche Kriegsflagge uber Ludwig [or Lublin??] wehte, kam sie begeistert und mein Vater war entsetzt. Und da war eine Polin, die war sehr nett. Hatten zwei Mädchen.
LS: War die Kriegsgefangene die Polin, oder?
RS: Nee, die war so verpflichtet, angeblich. Die hat einmal eine Gans mitgebracht aus Polen.
[LS explains the answers to AH]
RS: Helene.
LS: Ich glaube das war’s dann, Papa.
RS: War’s alles? In drei Jahren habe ich nicht mehr erlebt?
[LS explains the answers to AH]
LS: Mir fallt nichts mehr ein. Aber weisst Du was, wir kommen dann nachher und machen nochmal eine halbe Stunde, ja?
RS: Gut, gut.
LS: Ok.
SECOND INTERVIEW
AH: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre on the 31 of July 2016. It is the second interview with Professor Richard Suchenwirth, taking place in his home in Breitbrunn, outside Munich. The first interview took place yesterday. The interviewers are Liobe Suchenwirth and Anna Hoyles.
RS: ich kann so schlecht Englisch.
LS: Papa, wir wollten noch wissen von Dir über die Bücher vom Großvater die er über die Luftwaffe geschrieben hat. Kannst du noch ein Bisschen was erzählen dazu?
RS: Drei Bücher hat er über die Luftwaffengeschichte geschrieben, und die sind alle nach seinem Tod in Amerika erschienen. Ich hab alle drei hier.
LS: Auf Englisch erschienen.
RS: Auf Englisch.
LS: Vorüber waren die nochmal?
RS: Die, wer die Führer war der Luftwaffe, wie die Luftwaffe sich entwickelt hat und wie die Luftwaffe überhaupt zustande gekommen ist.
LS: Und wer hat ihm da den Auftrag gegeben, weiß Du das?
RS: War Department in New York,
LS: War Department in New York.
RS: in Washington.
LS: In Washington. Und davon hatte er auch das Geld einfach, also, die haben es auch bezahlt und so.
RS: Ja, die haben und da hat.
LS: Und was hat er dann, und er durfte ja nicht mehr arbeiten so richtig nach dem Krieg?
RS: Ja.
LS: Was hat er gemacht, und wovon hat er gelebt?
RS: Von, erst hat er von Vorträgen gelebt und, hat er lange Zeit, drei Jahre war er ja lang interniert und dann hatt er erlebt, [unclear] die Amerikaner haben viele Jahre ihn [unclear]
LS: Er hat auch was für die Europäische Konstitution geschrieben, oder?
RS: Nein, das weiss ich nicht.
LS: Europäische Verfassung?
RS: Er wollte etwas schreiben, wie heißt es, ich hab’s nicht im Kopf. ‘Europa’s letzte Stunde?’ hiess, Fragezeichen.
LS: So, Vorläufer der EU Geschichte, sowas, nicht.
RS: Ja.
LS: Dann, wollte ich nochmal fragen.
RS: Maria Theresia, [unclear] Buch von Maria Theresia ist [unclear] richtig, sogar nochmal nachgedruckt worden.
LS: Ah ja, genau, das war auch sehr erfolgreich, gell? Der hat fürs Reichskulturministerium gearbeitet nachdem er aus Wien geflohen ist. Was hat er gemacht?
RS: Reichsschriftungskammer. In der Reichsschriftungskammer war er Geschäftsführer, und da flog er Tag aus und dann ging er nach Pasing, da hat er die Hochschule [unclear].
LS: Und warum flog er da raus?
RS: Weil er, dort damalige Reichsschriftungskammerchef ihm nicht gewogen war. Der war ein großer, der war [unclear] hiess der.
LS: Der war so ein großer Nazi, oder. Und war das so was politisches oder was, oder mochten die sich einfach nicht? Oder so ein Bisschen beides?
RS: Erstens, beides, beides.
LS: Dann wollten wir nochmal fragen, wegen dem Harald. Der Harald hat wo gedient? Der wurde zwangseingezogen so wie alle, oder?
RS: Ja, zwangseingezogen. Er war bei der Wehrmacht, war er Oberreiter, hat aber nie ein Pferd gesehen, abgesehen vielleicht vom Kochtopf.
LS: Und wo war der?
RS: Er war in Russland, ganz innen in Russland. Und man hatte ihn das Bein abnehmen wollen und dass wollte er nicht und da musste er nochmal raus. Und da kam er, hat er geflohen von Sankt Pölten mit einem freund, von Sankt Pölten bis Altötting, in Altötting, und da hat er sich den Amerikanern ergeben. Und die Amerikaner haben alle von Altötting über die Donau nach Freyung getan und in Freyung wurde ausgeliefert an die Russen.
LS: Und das war aber nicht…. Das ging gegen die Genfer Kriegskonvention, oder?
RS: Ja.
LS: Und er ist geflohen, dass heißt er ist desertiert.
RS: Ja, es hat sich aufgelöst, die Truppe hat sich aufgelöst. So ungefähr, die Truppe hat sich aufgelöst.
LS: Kannst Du noch etwas von den Namen von deinen Eltern erzählen? Wie die heißen?
RS: Mein Vater hieß auch Richard wie ich. Mein Großvater war ein großer Verehrer von Richard Wagner. Alle drei Richards sind Folge davon: Ich, und mein Vater und vor allem mein Sohn Richard.
LS: Und deine Mutter?
R.S.: Meine Mutter kam aus dem Sauerland, südlichen Westfahlen, und uralte Fabrik, uralte Familie, hat 170 jährigen gefeiert und vorher war sie eine Wohlhabende Bürgerfamilie aus Westfahlen-Sauerland.
LS: Und wie hieß sie?
RS: Anna Elisabeth.
LS: Und wurde Else genannt.
RS: Ja.
LS: Und Deine Schwester, wie hat die den Krieg gelebt, wie hat die den Krieg überlebt?
RS: Hat und der Hermann, die jüngeren Geschwister blieben bei meinen Eltern, blieben bei der Mutter, sie haben eine Ziege gehabt, hatten zwei Ziegen und haben davon gelebt. Und die haben’s gut überlebt, den Krieg.
LS: Deiner Schwester wurde viel Kaugummi geschenkt von den Amerikanern.
RS: Ja, Schokolade wurde geschenkt. Die Amerikaner haben sich hier, die Truppe war sehr anständig, die Kriegstruppe. Und sehr viele Schwarze dabei.
LS: Und Du hast, und die Franzosen haben auf das Klavier geschossen, hast Du mal erzählt.
RS: Die Franzosen haben das Klavier nicht geschossen, sondern mit dem Messer…..
LS: Ach, mit dem Messer zerrissen.
RS: Ja.
LS: Und sag mal, ihr hattet hier verschiedene Leute wohnen in den Haus, und dar war eine Frau die gesehen haben will, wie eine Waffe ins Klo geworfen wurde, ins Latrine. Erzähl mal die Geschichte.
RS: Das war oberhalb, wie mussten raus aus unserem Haus als die Amerikaner, als die Franzosen kamen und da bin ich, wurde ich untergebracht bei einer alten Frau, hier oben, Frau Fischer, und da hat man sie gefragt, ob der Mann keine Waffen gehabt, da hat sie dem Offizier gesagt, doch doch die haben sie ins Klosett geworfen. Und da musste ich’s Klosett ausheben und die Waffe, [unclear] Pistole.
LS: Und wie lange musstest Du da graben?
RS: Na ja, drei Stunden, vier Stunden…
LS: Ein Paar Tage. Es war im Sommer, oder. Musstest Du viel Latrine ausgraben?
RS: Latrine ausgraben, ja.
LS: Und der Großvater, hast Du gesagt, war ein Sprecher für die Nationalsozialisten, oder Vortrag, hat Vorträge gehalten, was genau wie war das?
RS: Er war Reichsredner, Reichsredner gehabt, und hat gelegentlich weit weit überall Vortrage gehalten aber im Krieg schon lange mehr, kaum mehr noch. Da war er in Rumänien, und da war er in Griechenland, und da war er in Estland.
LS: Du hast gesagt, bis 1938 war Großvater, fand Großvater in Hitler ein notwendiges Übel?
RS: Ja. Bis der Anschluss, von Österreich zu Deutschland, Anschluss Österreichs war ihm sehr sympathisch, war ganz in seinem Sinne, und da war er sehr erfreut über Hitler aber nachher ging das Entsetzen über, denn er war für ihn der Teppichbeißer. Hitler soll er, soll in Wutanfällen soll er in den Teppich gebissen haben, Boden geworfen haben und in den Teppich gebissen haben. Stimmt aber nicht gar nicht.
LS: Und fand Großvater sehr lächerlich.
RS: Ja, so war’s gewesen. Da war er Reichstagsabgeordnete aber der Reichstag hatte nichts mehr zu sagen. Reichsredner und….Parteianzeigen …… zu tun.
LS: Irgendwas bekommen, so was bestimmtes?
RS: Nö, nö…..weil er eben lang dabei war, weil er lang dabei war.
LS: Und, also Harald wurde eingezogen….
RS: Frühjahr 1944 wurde Harald eingezogen, kam an die Ostfront, hat einen Knie [unclear] schuss bekommen. Und trotzdem ist geflohen weil die Russen hinter ihm her waren, da kam er ins Lazarett und da wollten sie ihm das Bein abnehmen und er lies es nicht zu, nein er wollte sein Bein behalten, er ließ es nicht zu und da musste er in den letzten Kriegswochen noch in den Krieg und ist wie gesagt in Gefangenschaft geraten, auf Jalta war er.
LS: Und Du meintest dass, Du hast sagst dass wenn sie ihm damals das Bein nicht abgenommen hätten, dann wäre er noch am Leben.
RS: Konnte er lange Zeit noch am Leben gewesen sein.
LS: Ein örtlicher Arzt hat dann was hinterher zu Großvater gesagt über Harald.
R.S.: [unclear]
LS: Nein. Das man hatte auch das verhindern können das er eingezogen wäre. Weißt Du das noch?
RS: Nein. Das Weiß ich nicht.
I.: Sagte dass man hatte ihm noch ….. geben können oder sowas.
R.S.: Das weiß ich nicht.
LS: Weißt Du nicht?
RS: Weiß ich nicht.
LS: Ich danke, Papa.
RS: Bitte.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Richard Suchenwirth
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Suchenwirth recalls his wartime memories as a Flakhelfer in Pasing, a district of Munich. He tells of his father who was the author of three books on the Luftwaffe, the founder of the Austrian Nazi Party, a political orator and initial supporter of Hitler’s idea of creating a single German state. He remembers being drafted as a Flakhelfer in February 1943 and the pride he took in defending the city even though anti-aircraft fire was ineffective. He mentions the high death toll of the March 1943 bombing raid, in which his house was destroyed, and tells how Russian forced labourers were deployed at his unit. He recollects being liberated by the Americans, with kind black troops handing out chocolate and his father spending three years as a prisoner of war but being treated humanely. He mentions various episodes of his father’s life: having a bust of Hitler which his father used to slap in moments of rage when he would call Hitler a ‘carpet chewer’. He mentions various wartime anecdotes; two aunts who died in different bombing raids; the capture and attempted lynching of an American pilot; food rationing; bartering cigarettes for a typewriter; an incendiary device hitting his house. Richard Suchenwirth describes how his brother, a Wehrmacht soldier on the Eastern front, was taken prisoner by the Americans and then handed over to the Russians.
Creator
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Lioba Suchenwirth
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-30
2016-07-31
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:51:33 audio recording
Language
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deu
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Munich
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03
Type
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Sound
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ASuchenwirthR160730, ASuchenwirthR160731
anti-aircraft fire
anti-Semitism
bombing
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
home front
incendiary device
Luftwaffenhelfer
lynching
prisoner of war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/153/1614/AKohlerH170303.2.mp3
d2f0f472887d968b2df90cc90be0d7ad
Dublin Core
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Title
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Köhler, Helmut
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview with Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) who recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer and the breaching of the Eder dam. His recollections cover life in German bombing cities.
The collection was cataloged by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HZ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Harry Ziegler. The interviewee is Helmut Köhler. The interviewee, the interview is taking place at Mr Köhler’s home in [omitted] Kassel on the 3 of March 2017. Also Herr Köhler, dann fangen wir mal an.
HK: Ja, also geboren wurde ich am ersten August 1928 und zwar hier in Kassel, im Rotenkreuz Krankenhaus und zwar in der Hansteinstrasse 17 haben wir gewohnt, das ist im Stadteil Wehlheiden, also nicht hier, sondern im Stadteil Wehlheiden. Und da bin ich, hab ich vier, drei Schwestern gehabt, ältere Schwestern, ich bin also nur unter Frauen gross geworden und leider ist mein Vater schon gestorben als ich knapp drei Jahre war, also 1991 ist, 1891 [?] ist schon der Vater gestorben und da war die Mutter mit vier Kindern alleine und der Vater war im Studienrat weil er einen Knieschaden hatte, desshalb ist er im Ersten Weltkrieg kein Soldat geworden, er hat also im Krieg warscheinlich einen Meniskusschaden durch Fussball haben sie gespielt und heute wär das operiert worden, aber damals konnten sie das nicht und desshalb ist er kein Soldat geworden. Und da hatt er hier in Kassel im Realgymnasium eins sein Studium, sein Abitur gemacht und hatt dann auch studiert in Marburg und zwar Geschichte als Hauptfach und hat da auch promoviert. Und a, und, er stammt also aus Gudensberg und die Vorfahren, also seine Eltern und seine Grosseltern und ich weiss nicht wie viele Generationen zurück, die hatten das Baugeschäft in Gudensberg, ein Bauunternehmen und meine Mutter, die stammt aus Rellingen bei Pinneberg in Schleswig-Holstein und die haben sich kennengelernt auf einer Hochzeit [laughs] die ein Gudensberger Freund von meinem Vater und einer Pinneberger Freundin von meiner Mutter, da waren sie beide eingeladen, haben sich kennengelernt neh und so. Na ja gut und so bin ich groß geworden praktisch ohne Vater und musste natürlich dann auch zum Gymnasium, Realgymnasium eins, das hieß damals Paul-von-Hindenburg-Schule. Und bin dann eben wie gesagt vier, fünf Jahre ganz normal zur Schule gegangen und am ersten September im ’39, Ostern bin ich dahingekommen, und im ersten September ’39 began der Krieg und da waren mit einem Schlag in einer Woche die ganzen jungen Lehrer weg und da kriegten wir die alten pensionerten Lehrer und dann waren aber zum Teil Lehrer, die mit meinem Vater zusammen an der Schule gelehrt haben [laughs], das war natürlich sehr interessant, ‚ach hier das ist der kleine Heinrich‘, neh, das war ich dann, neh. So und so sind wir dann, haben wir dann Schule gemacht war ganz normal, aber dann eben wiegesagt bis ’43 und dann wurde der Luftkrieg härter, da waren schon mehr mal Angriffe hier und dann kamen wir, als Schüler mussten wir dann Luftschutzwache machen nachts in der Schule, so fünf, sechs mit einem Lehrer zusammen, kriechten wir oben im Dachgeschoss so‘n kleines Zimmerchen mit‘em Feldbett und so haben wir den Krieg kennengelernt und in der Zeit ging dann auch in ’44, neh ’43, ging dann die Edertalsperre kaput, und das haben wir sehr gut beobachtet wie die Riesenwelle Wasser kam neh, na ja gut. [sighs] Jedenfalls, dann die Sommerferien waren rum und dann wurden wir zur Erntehilfe abkommandiert, vier Wochen mussten wir den Bauern helfen, Ernte zu machen und dann kamen wir kurz in die Schule und dann war am 22 Oktober 1943 der grosse Angriff hier. Und den habe ich in der Hansteinstrasse mitgemacht, wo ich geboren wurde. Und das war wirklich grauenhaft, also was ich da in den Keller so erlebt habe, auch die einzelnen Menschen, die da alle sassen, viel ältere Frauen und auch ein Paar Männer, ein hoher Offizier, der hier beim Generalkommando beschäftigt war der hat da immer ein bisschen beruhigt und so, also, es war schon grauenhaft, die eine Frau, die hat nur dauernd gesungen, vor lauter Anstrengung, und die andere die hat nur gebetet und so, und meine Mutter hat ganz still gesessen da, Hände gefaltet und dann gingen durch die detonierten Bomben dann gingen, flogen dann die Kellerfenster rein und dann, also er war grauenhaft. Na ja, und dann ist unser Haus nicht abgebrannt da sondern auch ein Paar Nebenhaüser und da hab ich mitgelöscht so und dann. Ja und dann waren die Schulen in Kassel alle kaputt, so und da haben wir drei Wochen, haben wir uns gefreut, hurrah die Schule brennt, uns gefreut alle, und so nach drei, vier Wochen dann haben wir dann doch bisschen im Zweifel geguckt und sind wir mal zu unser alten Schule gegangen, da war die ein riesen Trümmerhaufen aber die Kellergewölbe die waren noch da und da hatte die Schulsekretärin ihr Büro eingerichtet im Keller und da hatt‘se dann gesagt: ‘Jungs, also, Schule wird’s nicht mehr geben in Kassel’ und so war’s dann auch. Da wurden nach dem grossen Angriff, da sind ja etwa zehntausend Menschen umgekommen, und die ganze Altstadt, alles ein Trümmerhaufen, also es war grauenhaft neh und da sind die ganzen jungen Mütter mit ihren Kindern in einer Woche alle aus Kassel weggeschickt worden, die kamen alle in irgendwelche Lager, die Organisation die war damals schon wirklich klasse neh. So, und wir kamen in ein verlassenes Arbeitsdienstlager nach Bracht, bei Marburg liegt das, das war so alles ein Arbeitsdienstlager mit Baracken und da kamen wir alle rein.
HZ: Ist es Bracht mit B?
HK: Bracht mit B, R, A.
HZ: Ja.
HK: So etwa neh. Ich bin nachher nie wieder da gewesen. So und dann schliefen wir in den Hut, in den grossen Baracken da, zwanzig Leute gingen da glaub ich rein, dann immer zwei Lehrer dabei, die schliefen auf Strohsäcken dann und so und dann am Tag hatten wir da ein bisschen Schule und dann kriegten wir irgendwie die Nachricht das wir zur, als Luftwaffenhelfer eingezogen wurden und wir konnten dann nach Hause also im Dezember 1944, konnten wir, die wir bald eingezogen wurden, schon nach Hause. Und dann am fünften Januar mussten wir antreten Schule [unclear] Schule mit einem Papkarton und da stand da genau drinn was man da alles mitbringen durften, zwei Unterhosen, und ein Paar Socken, alles so was [laughs]. Und dann wurden wir auf’n LKW geladen und da stand da drauf:’Eltern durften nicht da mit’ oder so änlich wurde das da bezeichnet und von meinem Freund Erich, der mit mir grossgeworden ist, die Mutter die war klever, die ist dann hinter uns her gegangen wo wir zum, und wo wir auf der einen Seite von dem LKW standen dann ist sie auf der anderen Seite durch so’n Buschwerk und hat den Fahrer geholt und hat gesagt:’Hören Sie mal, wo fahren Sie den hin, mein Sohn ist hier bei’. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Nach Heiligenrode’ und da wusste, wusste meine Mutter, hatte gleich Bescheid, wussten die zumindest wo wir Jungen hinkamen. Und da sind wir furchtbar ausgebildet worden, also furchtbar, jeden Tag acht Stunden und das im Januar bei Wind und Wetter und da wurden wir auch fast alle krank und erkältet und alles sowas. Und dann so nach’m viertel Jahr wurden wir eingesetzt und auf, ach so und dann fragte dann der Hauptmann, der Kommandeur, der war im Zivilberuf war der Studienrat und zwar in Matte, Mathematik [laughs] und der fragte dann:’was wollen Sie werden?’ Wir waren ja alle per Sie plötzlich mit fuffzehn Jahren und was wollen sie werden, was wollen Sie [unclear] , und da habe ich gesagt:‘Baumeister, Herr Hauptmann, Baumeister’. ‚Umwertung‘, das war also wo die Zielwege aufgezeichnet wurden, das wurde viel mit Zeichnung das war natürlich was neh. Und ein anderer Klassenkamerad der sagte: ‚ich will Elektroingenieur werden‘, der kam zum Funkmessgerät, das war der Vorgänger vom Radargerät, und so hatten manche schon Vorstellung und die die gar nix wussten die kamen zur Kannonen [laughs] na ja und so wurden wir dann ausgebildet. Und ja und so ging das weiter bis zum, also Januar bis etwa Juni und da wurden wir verlegt von der Flakstellung Heiligenrode zu der Flakstellung Niederkaufungen, da war nämlich ein grosses Heeresdepot und zum Schutz von diesem Depot wurde oben auf dem Berg, das ist heute noch hier, Papierfabrik heisst das, Richtung Kaufungen wenn se da mal [unclear], da waren wir zum Schutz da, so und dann war immer Fliegeralarm aber es passierte nix und da haben wir von der Umwertung, wir mussten auch Sperrfeuer schiessen und das wurde von der Umwertung aus gemacht, das war das Flug-Malsigerät, das war so’n, [unclear] und manchmal wurde Sperrfeuer geschossen, den das Vermessen der Entfernung war sehr schwierig damals neh, am Tag ging das durch die vier-meter Basis, aber am nachts war das schwierig. Und das war in der ganzen, in dem ganzen halben Jahr vorher nicht einmal passiert. Und da bin ich mit’m Paar die den Zielweg nicht aufzeichnen brauchten [unclear] Malsigerät wir haben oben zugeguckt wie da die Flak geschossen hat und da ist wohl das Stichwort gekommen Sperrfeuer und unsere Batterie hat das nicht gemacht weil ich net da war und meine Kumpels. Und da simma nächsten Tag wurde eine zbV Batterie aufgebraut und dann kam der Hauptmann schon auf mich zu und ’Sie wissen ja warum sie jetzt versetzt werden’. Da kam ich zur zbV Batterie mit vierleutenarme [?] und da wurden wir dann umgeschult, sollten wir eigentlich nach Breslau, [clears throat] und da haben wir schon das [unclear] gepackt und alles neh und da kamen kurz davor in der Doppelbaracke da war die andere Seite, da war der Oberleutnant, der Batteriechef und der telefonierte plötzlich, da haben wir alle gehorcht und da hatt er gesagt:’Wunderbar! Ist ja wunderbar! Herrlich! Toll!’ und so und da kam er gleich zu uns rüber: ‘Wir fahren nicht nach Breslau, das ist eingenommen worden von Russen’. Und dann kamen wir zur 12,8-Batterie, wurden wir umgeschult, nach Maronhüls [?], da in diesen ehemaligen,
HZ: Wie heisst das?
HK: [unclear] hiess das Nest, das Dorf, [unclear] ist eine grosse Stadt in das [unclear] gebiet da am Rand und da war eine V2-Herstellungs, so ‘ne Fabrik, die das herstellten oder auch schossen oder wie das war. Und die wurden da immer, wenn Flieger kamen, Feinde, da wurde das eingenebelt neh. Und dann wurden wir ausgebildet an den Kannonen und eines Tages da flogen mehrere Kannonen in die Luft durch Rohrkrepierung, das war also Sabotage von Munitionsfabriken, haben irgendwelche Fehler eingebaut.
HZ: Haben dann bei Ihnen waren da auch Russische Hiwis oder waren da auch andere in den Flak?
HK: Ja, waren da [unclear] dabei, Russische weniger, aber italiener, diese Badoglio-Truppen,
HZ: Ja.
HK: Diese von dem abgesprungenen General Badoglio neh, oder Serben glaub ich und so was, die wurden dann da beschäftigt. Und irgend einer hat da warscheinlich so was erfunden dass das und da krepierten in ganz Deutschland bei der 12,8 die Granaten und da hatten sie keine Kanonen mehr. Da kamen wir wieder nach Kassel, hier oben in Welhheiden da haben wir in so einer Baracke gewohnt vierzehn Tage oder was und dann kriegten wir den Einsatzbefehl zur Vierlingsflak Umschulung am Edersee auf der Talsperre. Die war wieder hergestellt, die war ja kaputt, wissen Sie das durch die Ballbombe,
HZ: Ja, die rolling bombs.
HK: Die da rotierte neh, das war ne ganz, technisch ne ganz tolle Sache neh, da muss ich wirklich sagen also war schon klasse aber als wir hinkamen war die schon wieder zugemauert, also das war für mich als Baumensch ein riesige Leistung innerhalb vom Jahr, oder halbes Jahr was die das alles fertigmachen, so sieht’s heute noch aus, ist da nachgemacht worden.
HZ: Wir sind da mal da gewesen, ja.
HK: Also das ist also eine riesige Leistung gewesen, wie die das alle gemacht haben, das weiss ich net, jedenfalls dann wurden wir auf der Vierling, da hatten wir oben auf der Mauer da war so’n holz, Holztürmchen aufgebaut da standen vier, drei Vierlingsflak [laughs] und da soll’n wir nun, wurden wir ausgebildet. So und dann am zwanzigsten, so und dann weil wir vier Kasselaner waren dann wurden wir immer weggeschickt zum Kurierdienst weil man der, Autos gab’s ja nicht, sie mussten also die Kurierpost, die musste zur Heeresgruppe, zur Luftwaffengruppe, des war hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke hier in Kassel und da konnten sie an einem Tage nicht mit der Bahn hinfahren und wieder zurückkommen und da haben sie uns vier Kasseler immer eingeteilt, da konnten wir zuhause schlafen. Und da hatten wir das natürlich wunderbar. Und [unclear] ich mal wieder wegblicken, Anfang Februar oder irgend, Mitte Februar war das, da sagte mir der Schreibstubenbulle da, sagte:’Hör mal, wenn du jetzt nach hause gehst bring dir mal ein Paar Zivilklammotten mit’. Ich sag:’warum dann das?’. Das habe ich dann gemacht und dann zwei Tage später bei der Befehlsausgabe, da sagte der Hauptmann: ‘Wer hat Zivilsachen mit?’ Ich, Herr Hauptmann’, ‘morgen Abmarsch’ und da war die Entlassung hier neh. 20 Februar 1944 wurde ich von der Flak entlassen, ich war der erste [laughs], werde ich nie vergessen. Na ja, und dann war ich ein Paar Tage zuhause und da kriegte ich die Einberufung da, die hatte ich ja schon und dann hatten wir den Angriff hier etwa, ich weiss des Datum leider net mehr, am zweiten März oder irgendsowas, muss jetzt, grade jetzt auf die Zeit [unclear] muss das gewesen sein,
HZ: Ich hab mir.
HK: Da ist das Haus getroffen worden und ich war da zu Hause und da war ich mit ein Paar Freunden in einem Bunker.
HZ: Ja?
HK: Das erste Mal in meinem Leben in einen Bunker gewesen, weil da einer Musik machte, da war immer so’n bisschen was los. Und da kam ein Junge rein der sagte: ‘Helmut, stell dir mal vor, bei euch da in der Strasse brennt’s wie verrückt’. Und da bin ich raus, der Luftschutzwache wollte mich net raus lassen, da hab ich ihn weggeschoben, das war mich ganz egal [unclear] und da kam ich hin polterte die treppe hoch so, kurz vor mir ist die Holztreppe eingekracht, desshalb würde ich heute als Baumensch nie eine Holztreppe bauen, immer ne Betontreppe [laughs]. So und da stand ich unten und sah wie aus unserem Wohnzimmer, unserem Herrenzimmer die Flammen [unclear] schlugen und ich konnte nix machen. Da guckte ich so an mir runter da hatte ich Hose an und Schuhe an, keinen Kamm, keine Zahnbürste, da kam ich mir vor wie der ärmste Mensch den’s gibt auf der Welt, wirklich dieses Gefühl, das habe ich schon meinen Kindern erzählt, das war furchtbar, da stand ich da ach Gott, mein Wintermantel der hängt da an der Gardrobe, alles so und kam ich da gar net dran, das war eine furchtbare Nacht. Da bin ich mit meinen Freund, der war auch zufällig da, und da sind wir in den Keller, haben das bisschen was Mutter so’n Paar Koffer und so was, haben wir dann raus auf die Strasse gestellt, na ja und das haben wir dann, haben wir später mit einem Pferdefuhrwerk geholt und alles nach Gudensberg geschafft zu Verwandten.
HZ: Ja, die Geschichte wo Sie da noch zur Stadtkommandantur gegangen sind [unclear] mir erzählt haben.
HK: Ja, das ist da passiert.
HZ: Ja, die könnense noch amal für das Band erzählen.
HK: Ja, gut und da hatte ich ja di Einberufung und dann, so die hatte ich ja vorher schon deshalb bin ich ja bei der Flak entlassen worden, und dann einberufen sollte ich werden, das glaub ich am 6 März oder irgendwas sollte ich da antanzen und am zweiten oder so dann passierte der Bombenangriff und da hat der Onkel gesagt, neh, richtig, der Onkel hat gesagt:’Neh, das geht net, da kannste net weg’, ich sage:’Was mache ich den jetzt?’ ‚Ja dann, geh doch mal zur Ostkommandantur’, und da bin ich dann nach Kassel, ich glaub sogar gelaufen, [unclear] viele Stunden, und dann war die Geschichte ja mit der Ostkommandantur, wo ich draussen stand der Posten und da sagte ich, ‘Luftwaffenoberhelfer Koeler hier der will zum Ostkommandanten sprechen’, [laughs] das ich überhaupt den Mut hatte da staune ich heute noch, und wo er dann, wo ich dann sagte: ‘Ich bitte da um ein Paar Tage Urlaub, meine Mutter ist alleine und wir haben ein Paar Sachen rausgeholt aus’m Keller, die stehen da alle noch und ich muss, meine schwangere Schwester kann auch net helfen und so neh, und dann hat er dann gesagt also, na ja, mich mitleidig angeguckt und da hat er gesagt: ‘Na ja, melden sich in acht Tagen wieder’. ‘Jawohl!’ Und dann bin ich dann los und dann hat der Onkel gefragt: ‘Hat er überhaupt gefragt wo du wohnst?’, da hab ich gesagt: ‘neh’, ‚das ist gut, da gehst du nicht mehr hin‘. Und dann haben wir den englischen Rundfunk gehört abends, ‘Hier ist England, Hier ist England’. Und dann habe ich dann nun, haben wir dann nun bald erfahren wo die Amerikanischen Truppen, die sind dann in Remagen über’m Rhein weg, und dann waren sie schon über Frankfurt weg, und dann sagte der Onkel: ‘Das dauert keine zwei Wochen dann sind die hier’, und es stimmte auch. Am ersten April waren die ersten Amis in Gudensberg. Und so bin ich davongekommen. Und vorher hatte ich noch, da hatte mich mit so’n Mädchen da getroffen, standen wir so im Hauseingang, Ich konnte ja nur abends weggehen, am Tage lies mich der Onkel net raus, da kam einer plötzlich [makes a noise] stand einer neben mir, guckte mich an, sagte: ‘Bist Du den verrückt?’, der dachte ich wäre so’n Desertierter, er war nämlich auch einer. ‚du stellst dich hier hin, eben haben’se drei da oben erschossen‘, die haben’se erwischt neh, und da wurde es mir natürlich unheimlich, da bin ich auch abends weggegangen. Ja und bis die Amerikaner kamen. Das war ein Karfreitag, erster April 1945 [laughs], Karfreitag war das. Und die Tante hatte vorher schon ein bisschen Kuchen gebacken und dann sassen wir dann am Küchentisch und haben Kuchen gegessen. Auf einmal klopft es an der Haustür. Da kamen die ersten Amerikanischen Soldaten. Vor jedem Haus hielt ein, wie nannten die sich diese drei-achsler?, LKWs, na ja gut, weiss jetzt nimmer, und da sassen immer zehn Mann drauf, Amerikaner und im jedem Haus kam da Einquartierung und da mussten die Zivilleute alle raus. Und da kam der Unteroffizier oder was er da war, weiss ich net, der kam als erste sah mich an: ‘Raus!’, so ‘Raus!’. Da sag ich: ‘Moment muss ich Schuhe anziehen‘, zieh am ende Schuhe, dann kam ich die Treppe da runter und da standen zwei mit der MP und haben sie mich abgeführt zum Ostkommandanten. Und da war so’n netter kleiner Dolmetscher und der fragte: ‘Warum sind sie kein Soldat?’ Sag ich: ‘Ich war bei, als Luftwaffenhelfer’. Konnte er nix mit anfagen. [unclear] Und diesen Luftwaffenhelferausweis den hatte ich in der Tasche und dann wollte ich ihn zeigen und da fiel er vor lauter Aufregung fiel mir da hin, da war der schneller da und, ‘Ach!’ sagte ‘jetzt weiss ich was sie waren’. Da ist er zu seinem Boss hingegangen, zu dem Kolonel oder, neh Kolonel war er net, also der Offizier neh, und da kam der raus und dann guckte der mich an. This fellow is [unclear], ab und da bin ich auch schnell nach hause und so bin ich davongekommen. Draussen standen dann da, die haben sie alle aufgesammelt, die verwundet waren, Verwundetenurlaub und so und die sind dann alle nach Frankreich abgeschoben worden. Mussten ein Jahr im Bergwerk arbeiten und so. Ich bin da davongekommen. Das war meine Zeit in Gudensberg und da war ich eben fünf Jahre in Gudensberg, Fussball gespielt und so, das war eine schöne Zeit, aber in Kassel gab’s keine Schulen, des erste halbe Jahr gab’s nix. Und mein Freund hier, der Erich, der ist in Kassel weiter geblieben und der hat mich immer mal besucht in Gudensberg und der sagte eines Tages: ‘Helmut, im Herbst geht die Schule wieder los‘, die Albert-Schweitzer Schule, hier in der Kölnischen Strasse, die hiess damals Adolf Hitler Schule während des Krieges [laughs], und der sagte der Rektor da das ist der Ale Witschi [?], der mal zu uns in der Flakstellung kam und mit dem habe ich jetzt mal gesprochen über dich und der hatte gesagt ich sollte mal kommen, sollte mal gucken, der hätte einen Plan für mich. Da bin ich dann hingegangen, habe einen Ausbildungschef gefragt, hier ‚n Meister, darf ich da mal dahingehen? Ja selbstverständlich. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Gut, zwei Tage Schule haben wir in der Woche. Und in den zwei Tagen kannste zur Schule gehen und die anderen vier Tage, weil ja Sonnabend auch ein Arbeitstag war, da gehste in die Lehre. Frag mal deinen Lehrmeister ob er das macht.
HZ: Und was haben sie da für eine Lehre gemacht?
HK: Maurerlehrer.
HZ: Maurerlehrer.
HK: So ich war im Baugeschäft, und meine Mutter stammte auch aus dem Baugeschäft, also für mich gab’s gar nichts anderes, ich war, begeistert bin ich heute noch. Ich wollte Baumeister werden, was das damals war weiss ich net, aber das wollte ich ja einfach werden und da musste ich, ja Schule gab’s nicht mehr und da hab ich gesagt, jeden Tag beim Onkel Stall misten wollte ich auch net, ich will Lehre machen und so. So ist das gekommen. Und die Tochter von dem Bauunternehmer hier in Kassel, die war eine Freundin von meiner ältesten Schwester. Also wir kannten die, die Familie kannte sich persönlich sowieso. Nun dann bin ich zum Vitrokin [?], das war der Rektor, der Kommissarische Rektor von der Schule und der hat mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel den der kam in unser Flakschirm das hat man auch Unterricht gekriegt [unclear] Flakschirm weil wir Schüler waren neh und dann hatt er manchmal gesagt [unclear]:’Ach Jungs, habt ihr noch mal, nimmt mal eine Tasse Kaffee für mich’ Und dann kam so, alles zu Fuss, [unclear] und der war wie’n Kumpel für uns, das war der Lehrer, und dann hat er mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel da neh, sagte mach dein Lehrmeister einen Vorschlag und da machste bis Ostern das und dann kriegste das Zeugnis der Mittleren Reife, das hatte ich auch net, hatte ich nix, Schule kaputt, und so haben wir das gemacht. Dann bin ich zwei Tage zu Schule gegangen, richtig noch Latein und Matte und alles sowas neh und dann habe ich so ein Einheitszeugnis, so gross, stand ‘Alles befriedigt’ [laughs]. Na ja gut, und das ist meine Schulausbildung gewesen, kein Abitur gemacht, gar nix. Na ja, und dann habe ich dann studiert, habe ich dann meine Maurerlehre gemacht, an der staatlichen Ingenieurschule beworben, und das war ja auch so tragisch. Da musste zwei Tage Aufnahmeprufung sein neh, mit dem bisschen Wissen was ich da aus der Schule hatte und dann waren, dreisig haben, wolltense aufnehmen, und driehundertsechsig Bewerber kamen da in die Schule am Königstor als Offiziere und hatten noch ihre Offiziersmäntel an und so weil wir nix kaufen konnten [unclear]. Und da bin ich natürlich mit Glanz und Gloria auch durchgefallen. Und da habe ich mich auf die Hose gesetzt. Mit einem Freund aus Gudensberg zusammen, den Roman [unclear], der stammte aus Litauen, der war da Flüchtling, und da haben wir da richtig gepauckt. Hier neben uns da wohnte der Doktor Enders, Mathematik, Studienrat, war’n Kollege, Freund von meinem Vater, genau hier in der Parallelwohnung in der [unclear] und der hat uns dann Mathe beigebracht. Plötzlich viel es mir wie Schuppen von den Augen, plözlich konnte ich ne Gleichung mit zwei Unbekannten, das war gar kein Problem mehr. Und so bin ich dann zur zweiten Prüfung ein halbes Jahr später und da hab ich’s bestanden und so hab ich meine Paar Semester, fünf, sechs Semester glaub ich, [unclear] Ausbildung
HZ: Gemacht.
HK: So ist das geworden. Und dann fanden wir keine Arbeit und so. Und dann bin ich da mit einem Kollegen hier rumgelaufen ob als Maurer ein bisschen Geld verdienen konnten, als Maurer kriegten’se [unclear] Arbeit das war ’52.
HZ: Das war [unclear].
HK: Das war ganz ganz schlimm neh. Und dann hatte ich durch einen Onkel, der war in Bielefeld Stadtrat und der hat mir vermittelt beim Bielefelder Tiefbeamt eine Aushilfstelle für einviertel Jahr und habe auch bei denen gewohnt, es waren so Industrielle die haben da heute noch so Fabriken und so was Graustoffwerk und da hatten sie aber keine Planstelle und mittlerweile habe ich mich beworben bei einer Hamburger Firma die ein Onkel von mir kannte weil der Besitzer, der Vater von dem jetzigen Besitzer er war, war ein Studienkollege von meinem Ober, so hat sich das ergeben. Und die bauten Helgoland wieder auf, weil Helgoland ja ein Abwurfgebiet von der Britischen Armee war nach’m Kriege, da haben sie X Bomben ausprobiert, die ganze Insel Helgoland die war praktisch unbewohnbar, Blindgänger und die mussten wir, wurde praktisch umgepflügt die ganze Insel, drei meter da weggetragen und dahingepackt und da gingen natürlich immer die Blindgänger und die Bomben hoch. Die Bagger die hatten solche Stahlplatten davor, das der Fahrer net verletzt wurde. Und kurz davor kriegt ich ein Telegramm, das habe ich übrigens noch, nächste Woche nicht, Telefon gab’s ja gar net, nicht nach Helgoland sondern Mönchengladbach. So, Telefonummer aufgeschrieben, da bin ich nach Mönchengladbach gefahren da kriegte, hatte die Firma einen grossen Auftrag gekriegt, das englische Hauptquartier, das Hauptverwaltungsgebaüde, das steht übrigens heute noch, da habe ich auch jetzt ein Bild gefunden noch davon und das hatte ja zweitausendzweihundert und so und soviele Zimmer, Britische Rheinarmee. Und das habe ich, da war ich Bauführer nannte sich damals. Waren wir drei Mann und hatten teilweise bis vierhundert Leute beschäftigt. Britische Rheinarmee hiess das glaub ich. Und da habe ich auch die Einweihung mitgemacht, da haben wir noch, vorne in den Haupteingang, in dem Pfeiler, da haben wir noch eine Kassette eingemauert die muss heute noch [unclear] sein, sind noch warscheinlich noch Namen die ich noch merkte, ich weiss es nimmer so genau, mit ne silbernen Kelle haben wir da [unclear]. Und das war meine Grösse und auch eine, da habe ich viel gelernt [unclear]. Ganze drei Jahre war ich da. Das war sehr interessant und da habe ich mit einem Englischen Pionieroffizier viel zu tun gehabt neh, das waren die die eher kein Deutsch konnten. Und ein Ziviloffizier der war mittlerweile dann, er war früher auch bei den Pionieren gewesen und der war dann entlassen worden wegen Alter, der war dann schon Ende fuffzig oder irgendwas, und der wollte noch als Zivilingenieur und der schlief auch in einer Barakke von uns und dem haben wir auch Skatspielen beigebracht.
HZ: [laughs]
HK: Und dann haben wir auch mit dem die Weltmeisterschaften damals wo Deutschland Weltmeister 1954, da hatten wir noch kein Fernsehen und alles so was. Da hat er mit uns geguckt, da haben wir auf’n Stuhlen gestanden und [laughs], na ja und das war der mister Webster und der hat mich so ein bisschen aufgeklärt, der sagte, hören sie mal Herr Koehler, der sprach ganz gut Deutsch, weil er eine Deutsche Frau hatte aus Aachen und der sagte: ‚Die können bestimmt auch Deutsch‘, und da habe ich mal irgendwie was falsch verstanden und da hat er mich zur Rede gestellt. Mister Buru, was er für einen [unclear] hatte weiss ich nicht, Major, Major Buru, und da habe ich gesagt: ‚so Major Buru‘, habe ich in Deutsch dann gesagt, ab jetzt kann ich kein Englisch mehr‘ und da hat er gelacht und da kam der mister Webster dazu und da haben die ein bisschen gequatscht und seit dem haben wir nur noch Deutsch gesprochen und mit den anderen Kollegen genauso [laughs]. Das war nun meine Zeit mit den Engländern und ich wollte immer nochmal nach’m Kriege hin, nach der Zeit hin, aber ich bin nie wieder dahingekommen. Es muss heute noch da und wenn sie mal da in der Nähe sind, Mönchengladbach, Ortsteil Hardter Wald, das ist ja’n Riesenbezirk, das sind ja, das ist hier wie ‚ne Stadt, da lebten fast zwanzigtausend Menschen, da gab’s Schulen und für die Offiziere, und Offizierskasino und Kino und Theater und da haben wir mehrere Baustellen gehabt, das war meine schönste Zeit so mit
HZ: Aus [unclear]
HK: Und von da aus sollte ich dann nach Berlin da kriegtense in Berlin ‚n Auftrag, und weil wir nun damals für das Englische Hauptquartier bauten, da waren wir für die DDR Feinde. Das war der Karl Eduard von Schnitzler hiess der, Sudel-Ede hiess der, der brachte so politische Kommentare jeden Tag, das war so’n Richter. Ich weiss nicht ob sie den Namen schon
HZ: Den Namen kenn ich noch ja.
HK: Eduard von Schnitzler, der Sudel-Ede hiess er bei uns, und der hat da mal gesagt: ‘Es gibt sogar Deutsche die für die feindlichen Truppen heute noch bauen’ und da haben wir sogar, wurden die Namen genannt, unsere drei Namen. Und ich hab’s selber net gehört, das haben sie von Hauptbüro aus Hamburg habense uns das gesagt, also hütet euch, die Verbindungsstrasse zu fahren zwischen Helmstedt und Berlin, [unclear] vielleicht festgenommen. Und dann sollte ich nach Berlin, da hätten wir nun fliegen können von Hannover aus und da hab ich dann hier alles mögliche mobil gemacht hier in Kassel neh. Durch so‘n befreundeten Architekten, dann kriegte ich dann ‚ne Stelle bei einem Architekten hier und von da aus, na ja, das interessiert sie jetzt [unclear]. Und so bin ich nachher bei der Stadt gelandet, bei der Stadt Kassel und hab für die die Kläranlage, das war der erste grosse Massnahme, die Kläranlage baute, seit dem haben sie mich übernommen und da war ich naher auch in zwanzig Jahren Sachgebietsleiter vom Brucken und [unclear] Bau. Wenn sie jetzt über eine Brücke fahren ist alles so [laughs]
HZ: [laughs] kann ich sagen.
HK: Na ja gut das ist mein Lebenslauf.
HZ: Ehm, so, weil sie schon mal angefangen, angesprochen haben mit dem Bombenangriff auf Kassel, was denken sie eigentlich wären so prägende Erlebnisse gewesen die sie vielleicht auch heute noch beschäftigen?
HK: Ja, die mich heute noch beschäftigen, ich seh’s jetzt erstmal vom baulichen Standpunkt her. Die ganze Altstadt, die aus‘m Mittelalter noch stammt, die ist mit einem Schlag innerhalb zwei Stunden war alles kaputt und zehntausend Menschen in den Kellern, so, und die haben einen schönen Tod gehabt. Die sind an Sauerstoffmangel eingeschlafen. Den Keller hat wir ja früher net met waagerechten Decken gemacht sondern es waren nur Gewölbe, sonst ging aus staatlichen Gründen net anders neh. Und da sind die eingeschlafen, die sind regelrecht gebacken worden, oben bis auf diesen brennenden Schutt rauf und dieses Gewölbe war wie Backofen beim Bäcker. Da sind die zusammengeschrumpft so wie wir, wir wären plötzlich so gross gewesen, dieses ganze Wasser wäre verdampft neh. Die haben eigentlich einen sehr schönen Tod gehabt. Entschuldige wenn ich das so sage heute, das will ja keiner hören. Die sind eingeschlafen, Sauerstoffmangel, eingeschlafen und nie wieder aufgewacht. Und sind gebacken worden. Denn Ich habe die ja nachher gesehen wo sie aus den Kellergewölben rausgeholt wurden, von Gefangenen her, die ehemaligen Nazis und die mussten die da rausholen. Nach’m Kriege und so neh.
HZ: Sind da eigentlich beim raümen weil sie da auch dabei waren, sind da auch Zwangsarbeiter und Kriegs, wie heiss’ns, Kriegsgefangene eingesetzt worden?
HK: Ja diese, Kriegsgefangene, waren da auch. Das will ich noch mal kurz sagen. Die Flakstellung wo wir waren bei der Flak. Ich war nun bei der Umwertung, und der, war mein Schulfreund hier und der Elektrofritze da, wir hatten zuhause, der Mann, der Ober der war schon ein grosser Elektroindustrielle und so, Funkmessgerät und so. Und wennse zur, an’s Geschutz kamen, da war, drei Kannoniere waren Luftwaffenhelfer, die stellten diese Messgeräte an, wir konnten das ja viel besser als die Soldaten die vorher da waren, weil wir schneller und pfiffiger waren neh, das waren drei Luftwaffenhelfer an jeder eine Kannone, die die Breitengrade, Höhengrade und die Entfernung eingestellt haben und der Ladekannonier das war ein Deutscher und die Zureichen die Munition, das waren meistens Russische Kriegsgefangene. Müssen sich das vorstellen, die saßen, oder Französische, die saßen mit uns in dem kleinen Wald da neh und haben gebibbert. Dann habe ich dann auch von denen die, zum Teil Deutsch, hattense immer Hunger und dann kriegten sie von uns immer eine Scheibe Brot neh und alles so was. Wir hatten ein gutes Verhältnis mit denen, das war das mit den Kriegsgefangenen und die waren natürlich auch viele in der Industrie hier in Kassel, in Kassel hatten wir die Junkerswerke und so,
HZ: Da hätten [unclear] der Fieseler.
HK: Fieseler und so. Und auch die Munition herstellten [unclear] war früher neh und so und deshalb war ja auch die Flak hier rings rum und so. Ja und so haben wir viel mit den Kriegsgefangenen, wie viel da nun tot gegangen sind hier in der Stadt, die wohnten ja net hier in so, die wohnten immer ausserhalb in so Lagern, desshalb sind net allzu viele da umgekommen von den Kriegsgefangenen.
HZ: Nöh, ich hab bloß, ob die dann auch eingesetzt, ob die dann auch eingesetzt wurden beim raümen. Ich hatte da, ich hatte da von dem, da hatt schon mal einer Überlebensberichte veröffentlicht ‚93, die habe ich mir mal angeguckt und da sind auch zumindestens zwei Holländer und ein Franzose dabei. Aber, weil halt dann die Zeitungen hier, die Regionalzeitungen, die fragen ja dann schon nach Zuschriften, aber weil das ja dann immer bloß regional gemacht wird, da kriegt man ja dann immer bloß die Deutschen Stimmen,
HK: Richtig. Richtig, genau. Richtig.
HZ: Die von dem anderen, da hört man ja nix und das wär natürlich auch mal interessant.
HK: Nein also Holländer waren viele, Kriegsgefangene Holländer waren viele hier in Kassel. Und hier eine kleine Episode wo wir aus dem Keller mit meinen Freunden, aus dem, irgendwo brannte es, aus dem Keller haben wir dann die Paar Sachen rausgeholt, die lagen tagelang, vier, fünf Tage auf der Strasse, da hat keiner was geklaut oder irgendwas neh. Und dann wo wir dann mit dem Pferdewagen hier nach Kassel kamen und haben das dann abgeholt wollen, da war mitten in der Strasse, also die Hansteinstrasse, die Uferstrasse ist, genau in der mitte der Strasse war ein Riesenbombentrichter. Wir konnten also mit dem Wagen garnet zu unserm Haus finden.
HZ: Ja.
HK: Es war nur so’n schmaler Streifen an dem Vorgarten links und da hätten wir die ganzen Sachen da vorne an die Hauptstrasse bringen müssen, wo der Wagen stand, und da bin ich unten in die Hauptstrasse rein und da kam mal zwei Männer und da sag ich:, kommt mal her, wollt ihr mir da ein bisschen helfen?‘, das waren Holländer und die haben mir geholfen diese Sachen dahin und da habense so’ne Flasche Wein also von meinem Vater her, der hatte noch so‘n Weinschrank und da waren noch ein Paar Flaschen Wein drin und da hab ich ihnen eine gegeben und eine habense mir noch geklaut, das hab ich aber erst später gemerkt aber das hab ich ja eingesehen, das war schon richtig neh und so und das waren Holländer. Die haben mir dann geholfen. Also die liefen dann hier rum, so Freizeit, haben net dauernd gearbeitet, aber wie das war weiss ich net. Also über diese Verhaltnisse weiss ich eigentlich wenig Bescheid, die waren nur da, aber was se sonst so gemacht haben weiss ich net.
HZ: Da hat’s, ’95, die haben mal eine Wiedervereinigung hier gemacht, da haben sich welche hier in Kassel sogar wieder, wieder getroffen. Aber wie gesagt, die, man hört halt die Stimmen, man hört halt immer bloß die, also die Deutsch waren und auch hier im Gebiet geblieben sind, weil ich glaube das da einer in Bad Nauheim zum Beispiel die Hannoversche Allgemeine liesst, die werden, da gib’s halt dann keine Zuschrifften, desswegen habe ich da bloß immer so, so gefragt.
HK: Also es gab ja viele persönliche Schicksale auch neh, das auch sich Freundschaften gebildet haben. Zum Beispiel hier hatte mein Onkel in Gudensberg, der kriegte einen Polnischen Kriegsgefangenen, so als Hilfe, und das war ein Polnischer Student, war ein hochintelligenter Kerl, Jurek hiess er, und der hatte vorher noch nie was mit Landwirtschaft zu tun gehabt, der musste da milken lernen und so, der hatte es sehr gut beim Onkel, der durfte nur net am Tisch sitzen, sondern der musste am Küchentisch, da wurde so’ne Platte rausgeschoben, da sass der. Und mit dem bin ich dann zusammen auf’n Acker und hab gehackt und so und da hab ich ihm die Deutsche Grammatik beigebracht, das wollte er gerne wissen und ich hab da auch die Polnische Grammatik mitgekriegt, also das war aüsserst interessant. Und die Geschichte, er interessierte sich für alles, also war schon interessant neh. Hatten ne richtige Freundschaft geschlossen neh, der war nur zehn Jahre älter oder was, aber trotzdem. Und der ist auf einem Polnischen Zerstörer Soldat gewesen und da kamen die Stukas gleich am ersten oder zweiten Tag und haben den versenkt in der Ostsee und da haben sich ganze drei Mann retten können und er konnte gut schwimmen und hatt dann, durch’s schwimmen hatt er dann sich’s Leben gerettet. Und dadurch das er nun gut Deutsch konnte und sehr intelligent war, ist er in dem Polnischen Reisebüro Orbis nachher angestellt gewesen, in Danzig, neh in Posen glaub ich war das, neh Danzig, Stettin, entschuldigung, es ist, so ist das heute mit dem alten Kopf, Stettin. Und der hat mich hier mehrmals besucht. Der war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier in Deutschland sich bewegen durfte und der hat die Deutschen Reisegruppen, die wurden an der Grenze abgefangen und dann, die mussten ja alles ohne Aufsicht neh und wenn ne Deutsche Reisegruppe war, dann haben sie ihn eingeteilt weil er auch Deutsch konnte und wenn hier eine Reisegruppe aus Kassel kam, dann hatt er gesagt: ‚Sie kommen aus Kassel?‘, ‚Ja‘ ,Kennen sie Helmut Koehler?‘ ‚Nöh‘. Dann hatt er ihn die Telephonnummer gegeben, ja da hatte ich schon Telephon richtig, Anfang der 60er Jahre oder wann das war, ändert doch, ja so ungefähr, was soll denn, und da hatt er gesagt: ‚Rufen sie an wenn sie jetzt zuhause sind‘. Und da kriegt ich da X Telephongespräche hier von allen möglichen Leuten, ich soll sie grussen vom Yurek, [laughs] war schon interessant. Und dann kam er dann wirklich mal an und hat, er war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier nach Deutschland kommen konnte. Und dann kam er hier an, hatte vorher angerufen, war meine Frau da, die kannte den Jurek ja net und dann sagt’se, rief sie mich an im Büro, sagt‘se:‘Der Jurek hat angerufen‘. Jurek, ja dein Polnischer Freund, ja ja. Und dann haben wir am Fenster gestanden, um fünf oder was wollte er kommen und hatt sich dann, savott, [unclear] sieht genauso aus. Und der war jahrelang gleich nach’m Kriegsende hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke da kamen die ganzen Polnischen und Russischen Kriegsgefangenen wurden da erstmal einquartiert und da war er Chef der Lagerpolizei. Da hat er mich eingeladen zu seiner Hochzeit, da hat er geheiratet und da hat meine Mutter gesagt: ‚Du kannst da net hinfahren, erstmal komste da gar net hin‘, erstmal von Gudensberg aus nach Kassel fuhr gar kein Zug richtig, und dann von hier aus laufen bis zur Hasenhecke das war in Waldau ganz, ich weiss net ob sie das genau so kennense.
HZ: Wir sind heute oben gewesen.
HK: Waldau, das ist so ganz unten an der Fulda da neh. Das ist noch mal mindestens zwei Stunden Fussweg neh, wie willste denn dahin kommen und da bin ich da net hin. Und da hat er mich am Bahnhof abgepasst, ich hab ja da schon gearbeitet, da hat er gesagt:‘So, du bist auf meiner Hochzeit nicht gewesen‘, da hat er mich ein ganzes Jahr lang net angeguckt, da kam er [unclear]. Und der, ich hab noch Post von ihm heute, da hatt er mir, ach, x-mal geschrieben und da kam er hier und dann hatt er mir von der Polnischen Politik berichtet, hier bei mir durfte er das jetzt sagen. Also das waren Zustände, wissense [unclear], soundosoviel Quadratmeter eine Person, durfte glaub ich nur zehn Quadratmeter Wohnfläche haben für eine Person sonst musseste zahlen, also unmögliche Zustände. Na ja gut, das war mit den Polen.
HZ: Und noch, noch irgendwas von der, noch irgendwas aus ihrer Zeit von der, bei der Flak?
HK: Von der Flak, neh. Ja gut also, wie gesagt, hier wo wir am Edersee waren, alle, zweimal in der Woche musste ich nach Kassel fahren, ich hatt’s natürlich gut, da brauchte ich keinen Dienst mehr zu machen. Und so habe ich auch viele Angriffe mitgemacht, die letzten Angriffe neh. Und da war ja meine Mutter und meine [unclear] schwangere Schwester die waren dann schon in Gudensberg, aber die Wohnung war immernoch da, die ist erst ganz, ja, letzter Angriff oder vorletzter Angriff auf Kassel. Und da war die Nachbarin die hat ja gesagt: ‚Helmut, kannst ruhig hier schlafen, wenn Fliegeralarm kommt da mach ich dich schon wach‘. Weil ich das [unclear] gehört habe, als junger Bursche [laughs] und so war das neh. Ja also da gibt’s eigentlich und dann die Angriffe hier. Dann eines Tages hatten wir einen Blindgänger im Haus, das war in der Silvesternacht, vom ‚44 auf ‚45, da war ich am Edersee und Neujahr musste ich Kurierdienst machen und da war ein Zettel an der Haustür: ‚Vorsicht, Blindgänger‘. Alle Leute [unclear] raus, die mussten alle weg. Da ist durch die Decken, durch die Bäder, wir hatten sogar schon Bäder damals, ist die Bombe durch die ganzen Bäder durch und über der Luftschutzkellerdecke ist die Bombe hängen geblieben, wenn die explodierte waren sie alle tot. Und meine Mutter, wir wohnten im dritten Stock, die ist als erstes raufgegangen, die wäre fast da reingefallen in das Loch, die hat das erst gar nicht gesehen weil ja kein Licht da, kein Strom und nix. Und dann hat sie geschrien und dann die Leute alle: ‚Ach Gott!‘ durch die Badewanne durch, war plötzlich ein Loch [laughs]. Na ja, und das haben’se dann wieder irgendwie geflickt, bis es dann ganz kaputt ging. Ja und als Luftwaffenhelfer das was insofern ‚ne interessante Zeit weil das für uns eben, ja, wie soll ich das sagen, wir waren aufgeweckte Gymnasiasten und wir hatten plötzlich eine Zeit vor uns die, die wir net richtig begreifen konnten, habe ich ja eben schon gesagt was is wenn der Krieg jetzt zu Ende ist, was passiert denn mit uns? Diese Gespräche hatten wir schon.
HZ: Das könnten sie auch für das Band nochamal dazu sagen, weil das haben sie mir ja schon vorher mal erzählt. Die Gespräche dann das die vielleicht, das da vielleicht die Flakhelfer so einen Sieg des Dritten Reiches gar net so entgegengesehn haben.
HK: Ja, das war zum Beispeil nach dem Angriff, nach dem Attentat auf‘m Hitler, das war der 20 Juni, Juli, glaub’ich, Juni.
HZ: Juni.
HK: 20 Juni 1944.
HZ: ‚44.
HK: Und dann, wie gesagt, dann in der Kabine, von der Funk, ach wie heisst der, wo die Nachrichten kamen, da wurde dann immer so die Lage da mitgeteilt, Hitler ist davongekommen undsoweiter, aes wurde da immer mitgeteilt. Und da kam der Hauptmann, Leutnant [unclear] und konnte dann [unclear] hören. So und da haben wir abends im Bett gelegen und haben dann gesagt: ‚Hier, das was wohl jetzt wird hier‘ undsoweiter und der Hitler ist davongekommen und da hat der einer gesagt.‘So’ne Scheisse!‘ [laughs], das werde ich also nie vergessen. Und da haben wir schon drüber unterhalten. Was wäre gewesen wenn und da haben wir aber auch debatiert drüber was des auch der Stauffenberg neh, was der auch für Fehler gemacht hat. Wenn er schon sowas macht, das Attentat auf’n Hitler, dann hätte er das auch richtig machen müssen. Er hätte warten müssen bis der tot ist, net vorher schon weglaufen. Er ist ja weggelaufen wo es da explodiert ist, er hätte sich erkundigen müssen, ist er nun wirklich tot oder so, und dadurch ist [unclear] das alles entstanden, wäre er danach stehngeblieben und hätte anschliessend erschossen, dann wäre er zwar auch erschossen worden aber so ist er auch umgekommen. Also das haben wir damals diskutiert, also der Stauffenberg hat da Fehler gemacht. Also so sachliche Gespräche haben wir als junge Leute gemacht, das ist mir noch gut [unclear] aber sonst mussten wir immer das machen was befohlen wurde, eigene Initiative konnten wir net haben.
HZ: Die, ehm, da werden verschiedene Zahlen angegeben, wie viel Flakhelfer einen Luftwaffensoldaten ersätzt hätten, ‚43, da heisst es, die einen sagen das wären, ein Flakhelfer für einen Soldaten gewesen, andere sagen das seien drei Flakhelfer für zwei Soldaten gewesen. Wissen sie da irgendwas?
HK: Hab ich ihnen ja eben gesagt, also diese Posten die wir hatten an der Kannone, die wären sonst von Soldaten gemacht worden
HZ: Also eins zu eins.
HK: Also jede Kannone wurden drei Soldaten gespart. Und wenn’s so’ne Grosskampfbatterie, die hatten acht Kannonen, acht ortsfeste Kannonen, also drei mal achzehn, vierundzwanzig Soldaten wurden schon alleine Kannonen gespart. Und dann kam dazu noch Kommandogerät, da hatten wir auch pfiffige Schüler von uns, die waren am Kommandogerät, da waren auch mindestens dreie, ich weiss es heute nicht mehr so genau, jeden [unclear] und Funkmessgerät. Und dann hier die Umwertung, wo wir nur Luftwaffenhelfer waren, da waren ja früher Soldaten. Also ich hatte alleine, ich war mal eine Zeitlang [unclear] Unteroffizier der, des Befehlsgewalt hatte über die Umwertung, der musste zum Lehrgang, da muss ja einer Stellvertreter sein und da hatt der Hauptmann bestimmt das war ich. Und in der Zeit ist das passiert mit dem Sperrfeuer und da musste ich natürlich bestraft werden, da kam ich zur zbV Batterie [laughs] das ist so kleine Erinnerung, da wurde ich bestraft. Na ja aber schon, das sind dann schon also vierundzwanzig, ich möchte mal sagen schon fast dreissig Soldaten wurden da schon gespart an einer Flakstellung, und wir waren ja ungefähr dreissig Luftwaffenhelfer.
HZ: Sind da auch welche von denen die sie gekannt haben, sind da auch welche gefallen?
HK: Neh.
HZ: Neh.
HK: Also wir haben zwar einen Bombenangriff mitgemacht und zwar in Kaufungen, da wo des grosse Lager von Panzern und LKWs war von der Deutschen Industrie, da ist genau zwischen der Flak, zwischen der Geschützstellung und zwischen der Befehlsstelle, da waren ungefähr, hundert, hundertfuffzig meter dazwischen und genau da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich runter [unclear], genau dazwischen, und da hatt einer noch hier, am Fuss hier, irgendwie‘n Stein oder was da, kam ins Lazzaret hatte eine Verse kaputt. Das war das einzige was ich erlebt habe. Aber hier vorne, in der [unclear] hier, wenn sie hier ein Stückchen runtergehen, zum Auestadion, da ist, geht’s links die Ludwig-Mond-Strasse hoch und das war früher alles freies Feld und da stand eine Flakstellung, die haben viele Tote gehabt da. Da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich über die Flakstellung weg, aber wie viel das wurde damals nicht bekannt gegeben. Da waren also mehrere Schüler die sind dann umgekommen aber zahlmässig waren es verhältnissmässig wenig, dass muss ich schon sagen. Die haben schon ein Bisschen auf uns jungen, junge Burschen so’n bisschen Mitleid gehabt oder so. Auch die Offiziere, das waren alles Familienväter und so. Unser Batterieschef der war von Beruf Mattestudienrat und der sah nun die armen Jungen da und hatte vielleicht selber auch Kinder zuhause und so. Also die haben uns schon so’n bisschen [unclear], das haben wir damals nicht so gemerkt, das haben wir nur dann später so erzählt wenn wir mal zusammen waren, na ja.
HZ: Gut.
HK: Weiss nicht ob ich ihnen viel dienen konnte mit dem, also, eh.
HZ: Des ist, des is ok, da bedanke ich mich. Weil das geht ja um ihre Erinnerungen, das geht ja net da drum.
HK: Ja, sicher, ich meine, Politik wurde damals ja ausgeschlossen, Politik gab’s die ganze Woche Politik, das kannten wir ja net gar net, also wenn da einer was von Politik erzählte wusste da einer gar nix mehr da anzufangen. Was Hitler sagte das war Evangelium. Und ich kann mich erinnern, das war wo wir am Edersee waren, sind, Weihnachten, ja hatten wir keinen Ausgang, mussten wir da bleiben Weihnachten, Weihnachten ‚44, ah da gab’s da ein Festessen, da gab’s net nur Sauerkraut und Pellkartoffeln, das gab’s fünf mal in der Woche, da gab’s dann zu Weihnachten ein Stückchen Fleisch ob das nun vom Hund war oder vom das wusste kein Mensch. Und da sassen wir in der Kantine und da sagte dann der Hautpmann: ‚Na, nun wollen wir mal ein Weihnachtslied singen‘. Da waren wir alle so traurig, wir Jungen, kriegte keiner einen Ton raus und einer nach‘m anderen ging dann raus und ich musste dann auch raus weil Tränen kamen und dann standen im Saal und heulten aber wie, ein Geschluchze und so. Also man merkte dann doch diese innere Ergriffenheit unter uns Schülern, wir waren net alle so, und dann mussten wir dann die Reden von Goebbels glaub ich oder wer das war, mussten wir dann anhören. Also es war schon manchmal schwierig, das kann ich ihnen sagen. Genau wie ich mal als Pimpf, wie war denn das, ich war hier auch, Hitlerjunge net zuerst waren es Pimpfe neh, also Jungvolk hiess das, mit zehn Jahren und so, da kriegtense die Uniform da waren wir ganz stolz drauf. Und dann war, wie war denn das eigentlich, jetzt weiss ich nicht zu welchem Anlass, denn da musste ich in der Stadthalle auf der Bühne an der Fahne stehen und vor uns dann, war das nach dem ersten Angriff auf Kassel glaub ich, das war ‚42, was, so war das, da kam der Joseph Goebbels und hat’ne Rede gehalten, da [unclear] so fünf, sechs Meter hinter’m Joseph gestanden, mit der Fahne neh, da konnte sie ja nix ändern dran, sie wurden einfach bestimmt, konnte sie sich net wehren oder so, das weiss ich immer noch so und da hat unsere Herzen werden starker und was er da alles gebrüllt hat, das ist zu erinnern. Genau wie einmal, das war glaub ich zum Reichskriegertag, ‚39, da war ich grade so‘m Pimpf, da war der Hitler hier in Kassel, zum Reichskriegertag, das mus ‚39, nah sie konn’s ja besser recherchieren, ich weiss nicht mehr wann das war, und da waren wir an der schönen Aussicht und da sollten wir absperren und, aber die Leute haben uns kleinen Jungen ja weggedrängt. Da bin ich hinten auf die Mauer die ja heute noch da ist und hab von oben geguckt und ich sag immer heute noch zu den Jungen, da hat mich der Hitler begrüsst, da guckte er nämlich grade dahin, machte immer so net, und grade da in dem Moment wo er zu mir guckt, da winkte er, da sag ich er hat mir zugeguckt [laughs] [unclear] das wissen meine Enkel sogar [laughs] [unclear]. Ja, Hitler, das ist so, für meinen Begriff, war das schon ein grosser Stratege und ein unheimlich schlauer Mensch, ganz egal was er nun gemacht hat, das Ergebniss war ja schlecht, aber wie er das gemacht hat, es gibt in der ganzen Geschichte, sie kennen die Geschichte besser, so Napoleon oder, ganzen Kriegen so, wie der Cäsar und so, das waren Strategen neh, oder hier, Dschingis Khan und so, wenn man sich vorstellt, in der Zeit, die kommen von der Mongolei mit Pferden und was weiss ich alle hierher, und beherschen ganze Riesenreiche hier. Also das ist schon eine gewaltige Sache und in diese Kategorie gehört meiner Meinung auch der Hitler wenn auch jetzt negativ seine Taten waren, aber er war Stratege, er hat bestimmt was jetzt gemacht wurde und die ganzen Generäle, die Feldmarschälle mussten das machen was er wollte. Das ist gar nicht so einfach sich das vorzustellen. Ich will den net in Schutz nehmen, net dasse denken ich wär ein alter Nazi oder so neh [laughs]. Aber er war wirklich und mein Vater der war jawohl, gut ich wusste nur, er hat jetzt eine Doktorarbeit gemacht über den Alten Fritze da und den Schlesigen Kriege da, und was er verehrt hat, das weiss ich von meiner Mutter her, Napoleon. Das war für ihn ein Riesenstratege wohl. Da hing sogar im Flur ein Riesengemälde von Napoleon, da kann ich mich als Kind da noch erinnern. Also es gab in der Welt mal so bestimmte Typen die übernormal strategisch begabt waren, das wissen sie besser, [unclear] sowas hier dazu erzählen [laughs] aber das ist meine Empfindung hier, meine Empfindung.
HZ: Gut, dann bedanke ich mich jetzt auch [unclear] mal.
HK: Ja, ich hoffe das.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Helmut Köhler
Description
An account of the resource
Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer. He provides a first-hand account of two attacks on Kassel, the first on the 22 October 1943 and the second in March 1944. He describes his time spent inside the air-raid shelter; how he helped extinguish fires; the destruction of schools and the entire old town being razed to the ground. He also discusses everyday life in an anti-aircraft unit, the process of matching skills to roles, training, and anti-aircraft fire. He mentions being posted to a special deployment unit as a punishment for noncompliance, following which he was re-trained on quadruplet anti-aircraft guns at the Eder dam. He briefly talks about the breaching of the Eder dam and the ensuing flood wave. Helmut Köhler recalls Russian and French prisoners of war manning flak batteries. He describes an unexploded bomb in his house on new year’s eve 1944. He stresses that Luftwaffenhelfer freed up soldiers for combat roles and highlights how the replacement ratio was almost 1:1. He mentions his first encounter with American troops in Gudensberg at the end of the war.
Creator
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Harry Ziegler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:59:29 audio recording
Language
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deu
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKohlerH170303
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Kassel
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Gudensberg
Germany
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
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1943-10-22
1944-03
1944-12
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
firefighting
Luftwaffenhelfer
prisoner of war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/137/1345/AMarianiE171209.2.mp3
0eee23fba633360a2f864a13c00ca89d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/137/1345/PMarianiE1701.2.jpg
78966f1fe391c0d4aac3b6a0c5c10a24
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mariani, Enrica
E Mariani
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Enrica Mariani who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mariani, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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EP: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatrice è Erica Picco. L’intervistata è la signora Enrica Mariani. Nella stanza sono presenti Zeno Gaiaschi, Emilio Mariani e Roberto Sanvito. Ehm, ci troviamo in [omitted] a Milano. Oggi è il 9 dicembre 2017 e sono le 15.30. Va bene, possiamo cominciare. Allora, signora Enrica, ehm, io vorrei cominciare da prima della guerra e vorrei chiederle come era composta la sua famiglia, se aveva fratelli, sorelle, dove vivevate e qual’è il suo ricordo più distante, prima della guerra, che cosa si ricorda, come era la vita?
EM: Sì, difatti, mi ricordo perché mio papà, diciamo, lavorava in una fabbrica dove facevano, come si chiama? Le cose per i militari insomma, ecco. E, e allora, diciamo, allora c’era il Duce e volevano fare la tessera dei fascisti insomma. E invece mio papà non l’ha fatta. Non l’ha fatta e allora loro l’hanno lasciato a casa e allora dato che noi avevamo, mia mamma faceva la portiera in Via Pietro Borsieri 12 e allora c’era il ragioniere della casa che veniva lì e ormai li conosceva e allora c’ha trovato un posto al, dove, al Verziere. Al Verziere perché così almeno lui essendo di notte faceva la ronda, essendo che non era fuori e così almeno nessuno diciamo [unclear]. Viene che una serata insomma mia mamma aveva tre figli allora, cioè io, mio fratello, quello che c’è morto e questo qui che c’è adesso, Emilio, ecco. E diciamo questo qui era appena nato perché era del, è del ’38, dunque perciò. E allora c’ha detto mia mamma: ‘Te porta di sopra i bambini’, perché avevamo le camere da letto di sopra, ‘te porta di sopra i bambini che tanto manca due minuti alle dieci, credo che non dicano niente se io chiudo la porta, il portonÈ, perché allora facevano dalla mattina alle sette al pome, alla sera alle dieci. Viene che c’è una, dei signori lì della, dei fascisti, che fanno la ronda, perché una volta c’era in giro la sua ronda, la ronda di loro insomma. E allora vedono mio papà a chiudere e allora c’hann detto: ‘Ma lei perché chiude? Non, lei è il portiere?’ Lui c’ha detto: ‘No, io sono il marito, però mia moglie c’ha i tre bambini, è andata di sopra’. Insomma, lì c’hanno puntato la rivoltella e l’hanno portato di sopra. Sono andati su perché avevamo le camere da letto al primo piano, che si entrava anche dal primo piano e mia mamma allattava mio fratello, questo qui l’ultimo. E allora ci è venuta la febbre, ci è venuto un po’ di cosa, sa io, va bene, ero piccola ma però insomma, avevo otto, otto anni, nove però ero già svezzata [laughs] perché ecco, e allora e così. Dopo l’hanno portata, portato di sopra allora visto che mia mamma conosceva della gente lì nella porta che erano dei graduati dentro al, a quel, al fascista, al fascismo e allora [unclear] sono andati giù e li hanno richiamato quelli lì. Han richiamato quelli lì e allora insomma è andato un po’ più a posto insomma così ma oramai mia mamma aveva, si era spaventata e ci era andato indietro il latte. Dopo questo qui dovevamo prendere [unclear] poi dopo c’è arrivata la guerra dunque quella la, quella la, la cosa lì come si chiama, le cose lì che hanno mandato fuori insomma i cedolini delle cose così no eh ma bisognava aspettare che mandavano fuori la roba nei negozi. Insomma è che, che ne ho fatte tante di corse ma non ho mai preso niente [laughs]. Dopo la mia mamma così, dopo mio papà nel ’39 l’hann chiamato su a militare, l’hann chiamato a militare ma lui dato che la, il militare l’aveva fatto anche quando aveva diciassette anni in Libia, ma era nella Croce Rossa. Nella Croce Rossa e allora c’è stato un coso insomma che mio papà non aveva dentro più i denti perché con il calcio del fucile hanno buttato fuori tutta la roba e allora insomma. Lì viene che allora dopo è venuto a casa e dopo si è sposato con mia mamma insomma così però nel ’39 l’hann chiamato su lo stesso che già aveva trentanove anni. E allora l’hann chiamato su lo stesso, era nella Croce Rossa che la Croce Rossa allora era al Castello Sforzesco. E poi c’avevano fatto un tesserino che c’era scritto proprio che lui, alla sera, se lo prendevano in giro, doveva andare in servizio, insomma così. Dopo insomma così, e dopo invece mio fratello quel, il secondo, non questo, il secondo, che a furia di andare, portarlo giù in, ehm, in cantina, con il freddo, una cosa, quell’altra, insomma è che c’è venuto una cosa al polmone. E insomma nel ’41 è andato. Nel ’41 è morto, allora mia mamma, sa insomma i dispiaceri perché, ehm, allora mio papà invece dopo si è ammalato lui e l’hanno portato al Niguarda. Al Niguarda perché a Baggio, dove c’era la cosa dei soldati, dei militari, doveva arrivare quelli della Russia, che erano mezzi. E allora lui praticamente era in un, in un posto insomma civile perché allora una volta il Niguarda era civile, non era come Baggio che c’erano tutti i militari. Beh insomma andato così, comunque non ha preso niente e amen. E allora io, quando c’è morto mio papà nel ’42 avevo dieci anni, è morto al 19 di marzo e allora la mia mamma ha dovuto venir via dalla portineria. Ha dovuto venir via e allora la, i miei zii insomma mi fanno: ‘Senti, adesso devi andare a fare qualche cosa’. E difatti sono, è venuta una mia zia in, lì a scuola e c’ha detto: ‘Guardi’, dice, ‘che mia nipote, c’è morto suo papà’. E difatti m’hann fatto il libretto di andare a lavorare e difatti sono andata a lavorare sotto i bombardamenti, sotto la, insomma tutto e allora abbiamo portato via mio fratello, mio nonno è venuto giù [clears throat]. Portato via mio fratello questo qui perché bombardavano sempre e allora io, anche se ero in giro, cercavo di scappare dentro nei negozi e così [laughs], ma lui altrimenti restava a casa da solo. E allora insomma l’abbiamo mandato via. [unclear], oh, faceva di quelle fatiche, che dovevo sempre andare o da sua sorella di mia mamma che abitava dopo Pavia o dalla, da mio nonno che era su a Bizzarone, provincia di Como, ecco, proprio sul confine della Svizzera, era lì. E allora con lui e il bambino e poi anche c’è andato su anche una mia cugina, era insomma e sono stati là e così. Oh, ma ne ho fatte di cose. E poi c’era dei ragazzi, io dico ragazzi perché difatti erano giovani, perché altrimenti li prendevano e li mandavano in Germania. E allora cosa fa? Li portavo fuori la da mio nonno e andavamo sulla linea della Svizzera e rompavamo la, come si chiama, la rete e poi li facevamo passare. Dato che noi oramai sapevamo gli orari che passavano, che c’erano i tedeschi. C’erano i tedeschi e passavano e, però dato che se vedevano noialtri bambini, ragazzi insomma così, non dicevano niente anzi, si fermavano: ‘cosa fate qui?’, insomma quel poco che dicevano. Ma eravamo lì che si tremava [laughs] perché adesso qui se si accorgono che li abbiamo mandati di là dopo. E insomma fatto un po’ di tutto, ecco, e tutto per prendere qualche cosa, per tirare avanti perché la fame è brutta eh. E non e che.
EP: Assolutamente.
EM: Ecco e [unclear] allora sono andati, e poi io dopo sono andata a, in un, una mia zia mi ha detto: ‘Guarda’, dice, ‘che c’è una sartoria, Neglia, che aveva [unclear], c’è ancora qui a Milano, che cerca le, una ragazza insomma così, se vuoi andare?, eh sì, [unclear] perché [unclear] e allora sono andata lì da loro. E lui aveva il fratello che era capitano dei, ah Madonna, come se ciama quel lì, di quelli che andavano in montagna, come si dice? Che scappavano in montagna, orca
EP: I partigiani?
EM: Ecco, sì, eh, non mi veniva. Eh, cosa vuole, l’età, ottantasei sono eh. E, e così difatti, era un capitano di loro. Però lui, io andavo là al mattino prima delle otto, eh, allora picchiavo la claire e lui sapeva che ero io. Allora si alzava, quando era qui a Milano si alzava e poi andava insomma così e allora noi io dopo andavo dentro io e tiravo su la claire e insomma aprivo i negozi. Ma viene che suo fratello mi dice: ‘Guarda, vai a casa mia’, che era arrivato lì, ‘che c’è una cosa da portare qui’. Però non mi aveva mica detto cosa c’era dentro. E allora lui abitava in piazza, lì vicino Piazza del Duomo che adesso la vietta lì me non la ricordo più. E vicino a Piazza del Duomo allora andavo, dunque da Via Plinius [Via Plinio], qui in Corso Buenos Aires, andare là bisognava fare quasi tutto a piedi perché i tram, poi tutte le volte che io dovevo prendere il tram suonava l’allarme, ecco allora a pie [blows her nose] scusi ma.
EP: Ci mancherebbe.
EM: A piedi, e allora vado là e sua moglie m’ha dato sta, in mano una cosa lunga così. Mi fa: ‘Guarda che c’è dentro di fare gli abiti’ ma sì, difatti c’era dentro, era tutto coperta di stoffa. Quando sono arrivata in negozio lui la desfa, la sfatta e poi fa così e lo apre, il coso che c’è dentro, il bastone. Non c’erano mica dentro i soldi [laughs] che se qualcuno sapeva, guardi, quante volte sono andata a finire che se mi beccavano non so dove andavo a finire eh. Perché loro, quella gente lì, non c’interessava se io avevo dieci anni, o se ne avevo quindici, o se ne avevo, perché loro eh, mandavano tutti dove là in Germania. E la, così e allora, beh, le cose sono andate così. Ma viene che, dopo, tornando indietro ancora quando mio papà è morto, c’era mio nonno, no, ci fa mia mamma: ‘Eh cosa vuoi’, dice, ‘tutti abbiamo la casa’, come per dire, ognuno c’ha la sua casa, ognuno c’ha i suoi interessi. E allora c’ho detto: ‘Va benÈ, io ho sentito, anche se avevo undici anni, dieci anni, non mi scappava niente, come non mi scappa niente adesso, e così. E allora sono. Poi viene che finisce così insomma la guerra è finita, quello che è e io ero abbastanza stanca di [unclear] perché ormai la guerra è finita nel ’45 dunque io avevo quasi quindici anni. E allora ho smesso di andare lì da Neglia perché ho detto qui a fare la sarta, a dire la verità, stare lì tutto il giorno non mi andava. E difatti sono andata alla, in una ditta che facevano le cartoline, i cosi per i sposi però insomma sono andata dentro lì e sono stata dentro mica male. Però la mia, insomma ho dovuto farne di tutti i colori, guardi, con mia zia, la sorella di mia mamma è stata operata d’un fibroma che era nel ’44. ’44 e lì mia mamma quando andava a trovarla, diceva il dottore: ‘Eh’, fa, ‘cosa vuolÈ, dice, ‘signora, sua sorella andrà fuori quattro anni (?)’. Mia mamma ha capito, ha preso la suora [laughs] meno male che c’erano lì dei parenti e l’hanno tenuta perché aveva una forza che non era tanto grande ma. E così e poi allora l’ha portata a casa. Allora io non ho potuto più andare a lavorare perché dovevo farci da infermiera, perché mia mamma, lei se vedeva una cosa guai sveniva. Perché lei se poi vedeva un dottore, con su il camice bianco, basta, era fatta. E allora insomma siamo, ho fatto l’infermiera e amen. Dopo sono andata ancora a lavorare dentro nella ditta che ero prima perché sapevano come lavoravo e tutto. E poi dopo quando, dopo mi sono sposata a vent’anni, vent’uno ho avuto mio figlio, ecco, però ne ho fatte.
EP: Una bella vita intensa.
EM: Sì. Ecco. Perché mio marito era un partigiano.
EP: Ah.
EM: Partigiano. E allora cosa faceva? Andava a che, a mettere i, come si chiama le, mettere su i fogli lì.
EP: I manifesti.
EM: Ecco, i manifesti, tutte quelle cose lì e sempre lo prendevano e allora la sottoscritta doveva andare là, pagare per farlo venir fuori. Sono andata avanti un pochino così, dopo mi sono stancata, ho detto, no, adesso vado con mia madre e porto dietro il figlio, come dì, ti te se arrangi, ‘e te t’arrangi’ perché un bel momentino ero stufa di lavorare sempre per dare la cosa agli altri e io ero sempre indietro, ecco. Perché dovevo, andavo a lavorare con le ciabatte e un grembiule nero, sempre, festa, giorno di lavoro io ero così perché per forza dovevo pagare quello che mi. Eh, cosa vuole, andando in giro a fare, diciamo le figure, io no e allora.
EP: Allora, io andrei un po’, ehm
EM: Sì.
EP: A chiederle alcune cose che lei ha tirato fuori finora, che mi sembrano molto interessanti. Ehm, prima tra tutte, un po’ la storia di papà, del suo papà. Come è successo il fatto? Quando è successo che, appunto, è venuto a mancare? Un po’, se può raccontarmi un po’ come è successa questa cosa.
EM: Sì, è successa che lui, dato che dormivano giù nella, nelle caverne lì, dei castelli, e c’era molta umidità e così e poi non mangiava troppo perché eravamo noi altri e se cercavano se aveva qualcosa di lasciarlo in casa. E così ha preso la, aspetta, come si chiama, la polmonite doppia e allora ha continuato così e insomma in, quattro settimane, quattro settimane è andato. Tanto poco che adesso, io compio gli anni al 16, al 19 è morto lui. Tornando al [unclear], al 15 c’è morto un fratello di mia mamma, lì nella porta, che andava, è andato su a trovare con mio fratello, a trovare la bambina che era su anche lei con mio fratello, là da mio nonno e è andato sotto il treno. Nel venire a casa è andato sotto il treno, lì alla Camerlata in, ecco. È andato sotto il treno perché lui, dato che era con la bicicletta e non se la sentiva così tardi di venire a Milano con la bicicletta, e allora è andato giù e c’ha detto al capo: ‘Guardi’, dice, ‘io, m’avete messo su la bicicletta perché domani mattina ce l’ho bisogno per andare a lavorarÈ. E lui, c’ha detto, sì, sì, in quella che dice ‘sì, sì’ fa così, il treno lì della Nord si chiudono i portelli, il basello si chiude. Caspita! E lì è andato sotto. Ecco, vede, ecco così e allora insomma uno per un perché, un altro per un’altro, hann preso tutti le cose lì nei polmoni. Eh, l’unica diciamo sono io e mio fratello.
EP: E a proposito di suo fratello Emilio, lui si è salvato perché è stato portato via.
EM: Sì, perché lo abbiamo portato via.
EP: Può raccontarmi un po’ come era la vita, appunto, di chi era sfollato? Come si organizzava?
EM: Quando era sfollato, allora mia mamma lei non, non andava fuori perché aveva il difetto che era nata senza, la cosa lì nella bocca, senza, come si chiama quello lì, il palato. E allora hanno cercato di mettercelo tante volte ma non sono mai riusciti. E allora dato che non parlava molto bene e allora ero sempre io quella che, che andava in giro perché lei non, se no dovevo esserci assieme perché lei se li domandava qualche cosa, noi oramai eravamo abituati a sentirla e allora capivo quello che voleva ma gli altri no. E allora insomma siamo andati, sono sempre diciamo corsa io, per questo, per quello lì, per quello là e via [laughs]. È stata qui fino a 82 anni. Pensi che quando ci è morto mio papà, si è, le si è staccato un embolo e l’aveva proprio qui, si vedeva, eh, proprio la goccia dell’embolo. Il professore che adesso si chiama Granata e adesso non c’è più perché era già un po’ anziano prima, c’aveva detto che doveva stare qui ancora sei mesi. È stata qui fino all’88 [laughs], guardi lei, dal ’42 all’88.
EP: In barba alla morte.
EM: Ecco, e c’era il suo, lì nella porta c’era un dottore che son venuti grandi assieme. E allora c’ha detto, ‘vedi’, che si chiamava Angela mia mamma, c’ha detto: ‘Vedi Angela, te sei fortunata che c’hai qui una ragazza che fa tutto lei’. E fa, ‘Pensa tÈ, fa, e io così c’ho detto: ‘Fermi dottore, lei mia mamma ci sono io ma dietro di me non c’è più nessuno [laughs] e allora io mi devo arrangiarÈ.
EP: Ehm, e quindi quando c’è stato da portare via suo fratello Emilio se ne è occupata lei di fatto.
EM: Sì, sì, portato su io, sì, sì, con la. E poi andavo su ogni tanto a trovarlo e dovevo fare Milano-Malnate. Malnate andare giù e prendere la tradotta, perché una volta c’erano le tradotte, non c’era la, la tradotta che andava su a Bizzarone, però si fermava prima, un paesino prima, a Uggiate. Da Uggiate a sù, là da mio nonno dovevo farla sempre a piedi [laughs]. Tante volte avevo la valigia con dentro quello che mia mamma ci mandava perché là non c’era niente e allora lei lavorava a Zaini e allora, il cioccolato insomma e il suo principale le diceva perché la conosceva, ci diceva: ‘Guarda, fa così, quando tiri su la roba per fare, per pulire i cosi dici, lascia lì qualche cosa e tiri su’, e difatti portava a casa i pezzi così di [laughs], fatti su dentro nel sacco. Ecco se non aveva quello lì non so se, forse forse se mi veniva anche a noialtri il male ai polmoni.
EP: Ehm, un’altra storia di quelle che ha raccontato, mi sembra un po’ interessante da approfondire. La storia del capitano partigiano, questo capitano partigiano che viveva di fatto clandestinamente.
EM: Sì, sì. Sì.
EP: Come l’ha conosciuto? L’ha conosciuto appunto nell’attività?
EM: Era il fratello di Neglia, sì, il fratello minore.
EP: E lei sapeva un po’ di cosa si occupava, cosa facevano con gli altri partigiani?
EM: No, lui, no, lui, così. Era solo che di notte, perché, guarda, tante volte avevano da discutere no tra loro perché insomma bisognava anche, mettersi d’accordo, perché sulle montagne qui in giro ce ne erano tanti, non è perché, e poi noi altri adesso così che io poi che ero sempre in giro. Guardi che la c’è la, come si chiama? Aspetta, ci sono i scelbini, noi dicevamo i scelbini a quelli dei, della camicia nera, guardi che ci sono i scelbini, di lì, di là, perché essendo in giro li vedevo eh, eh ma lo sa che andavano anche nelle case eh. Così anche noi lì al 12 in Borsieri che abitavamo lì, oh venivano lì a, dicevano sempre: ‘Signora, ma c’è il tale dei tali? Adesso, c’è quello lì, c’è quello là?’ Noi dicevamo sempre: ‘No, non l’abbiamo mica visto, ma poi era militarÈ. Noi facevamo sempre finta di non sapere niente. Invece erano cose che, invece erano lì. Sa che tanti, abbiamo tirato indietro le, i cosi lì come si chiamano, i, [sighs] quello lì dei vestiti.
EP: Gli armadi, le credenze.
EM: Ecco, gli armadi, perché noi là avevamo le cose, ah, come si chiamano? Che andavano d’un altra, cose bugiarde, no? Ecco, si chiamavano le cose bugiarde perché allora così tiravamo indietro l’armadio, li nascondevamo di dietro, eh, però con una cosa che loro stavano alti perché se quelli là guardavano sotto [laughs], li vedevano. Insomma, guardi, siamo andati in tanti di quei rischi che non so come faccio a essere qui ancora. Adesso non perché ma ne ho passate eh! E poi c’avevo detto dopo un, c’era venuto giù mia zia, sorella di mia mamma, di parte di Pavia, e loro erano sfollati là ma allora, mio zio, mia zia così con la, con mia cugina, erano sfollati lì, avevano la casa, fatto bene diciamo ma è bene che ogni tanto venivano giù, no? Per, così. E allora io ci dico: ‘Zia, guarda, adesso te devi andare a casa, stai attenta che se viene su il Pippo’ – perché c’era un aeroplano che – ‘che suonano l’allarme, non andare giù dal treno’. Sai dove ci sono le cose così, quelli lì sono, è ferro. Te vai sotto a quelle cose, alla, ai sedili, ai sedili vai sotto lì perché lì non passa la. Sì, sì, sì, sì, poi invece quando è stata lì dopo Pavia, è suonata l’allarme, ha visto gli altri accorrere, corre anche lei e difatti c’è andato dentro la pallottola di qui, è venuto fuori di là. Ma a me, dico la verità, non è mai capitato niente perché io stavo lì e dicevo, tanto se scappo, quelli là mitragliano. Eh è inutile che io vado a farmi mitragliare, per che cosa? Mi buttavo sotto, allora ero magra, ero [unclear].
EP: E si ricorda un bombardamento particolare?
EM: Ah sì, nel ’43. Nel ’43 noi abbiamo dovuto perché è venuto giù gli spezzoni incendiari, no, lì al Borsieri. Allora ci hanno fatti andare fuori dall’altra parte perché avevamo i picconi, le cose così, perché c’erano le case vicine, ma combinazione la, insomma era [unclear], che come, mhm. Insomma fuori dal 12 siamo andati con i picconi così, e abbiamo fatto neh e siamo andati al 14, ecco, perché altrimenti non si poteva, non si poteva venire fuori di qui. Perché i piccoli, incendiari, andato giù fino al secondo piano. E allora c’era tutto un, il fumo [unclear] perché nella casa c’è il mobilio, c’è e hann bruciato tutto e allora. E quante volte che chiudevo la porta, ‘mamma, vai’ e allora con la bottiglia dell’acqua, perché non si sapeva quanto tempo si stava giù, la bottiglia dell’acqua e il pane che se avevamo avanzato perché non sapevamo quando arrivavamo su [laughs]. Ecco, e allora, insomma così. E quando io stavo chiudendo l’uscio, proprio spezzone incendiario, proprio, mi è venuto proprio quasi a filo, tra me, tra me e l’altra signora che è la mia vicina di casa, ecco proprio lì è andato giù. Meno male, perché se mi viene sulla testa, non ero mica qui a raccontarlo.
EP: E nel quartiere Isola avevate un rifugio o c’erano i rifugi dentro i condomini?
EM: Dentro i condomini, sì, sì, come adesso. Adesso ci sono le. E noialtri, lì al Borsieri, al 12, sono venuti fuori i tedeschi a guardare, prima che succedeva, proprio il casino, ecco, perché il casino proprio è incominciato nel ’42, eh, quasi ’43 insomma, perché allora sì, venivano su, suonava l’allarme, erano già lì che mitragliavano qui alla, alla Bicocca [laughs]. Adesso non è per, e allora, , io tante volte se era di giorno, non mi muovevo neanche di casa, andavo lì sotto a quegli usci lì, cose, ecco.
EP: E negli spazi in cui andavate a rifugiarvi in condominio, c’erano un po’ tutte le persone del palazzo.
EM: Sì, sì, sì. Tutte.
EP: Che cosa succedeva dentro? C’era.
EM: Eh beh, sa, c‘era un signore che aveva la chitarra, no, e allora per farci stare lì, noialtri ragazzi insomma e così, e suonava e poi si cantava, no, tanto per [unclear] che ogni tanto si sentiva [mimics the noise of a low-flying aircfraft] da qui ci si spostava di là perché era la, la [unclear]
EP: L’urto proprio.
EM: Sì, l’urto del, perché lì in Via Pietro Borsieri sono venute giù tante eh perché con la scusa che c’era la, la Brera [Breda], c’era la ferrovia e allora cercavano, cercavano ma hanno preso solo le case, non hanno né loro, quelle lì che facevano le, i motori per gli apparecchi e tutto, quelli lì non l’hanno presa. Ma hanno preso le case.
EP: E si ricorda qualche canzone che cantavate nei rifugi? C’erano delle canzoni particolari o non so?
EM: No, tutte cose che se mi sentivano, mi portavano dentro [laughs]
EP: [laughs]
EM: Perché era, adesso aspetti eh, [pauses] cantava: ‘la donna del DucÈ, in milanese però, ‘la donna del Duce, la fa una piruletta, e sotto c’era scritto, che era una bestia’. [laughs] Se mi sentivano, mi portavano via [laughs]. Ma lui con la chitarra ma dopo, dato che di sopra c’era uno che era nella Unpa, proprio che guardava quelli che quando non c’era gli apparecchi, quello veniva in giro, guardava che se vedeva la luce, noi sulle, la, le finestre avevamo le doppie, ehm, come si chiama? Le doppie cose così, no, nere, per non far vedere la luce e poi il straccio nero di sopra alla cosa, eh! Insomma [laughs] tutto per non far vedere perché se andavamo fuori e poi fare in fretta perché loro, uno dentro in casa che tirava subito la tenda, e insomma. Guardi, ne abbiamo fatte di tutti i colori.
EP: Beh, sicuramente il quartiere dove stava lei era un quartiere particolarmente vivace.
EM: Sì, sì, sì, sì, oh, eccome, eccome anche. Pensare che prima che, quell’anno lì che c’è venuta la guerra, no, ma c’era la ottobre, a ottobre non si sapeva ancora quello che c’era. Sì, sapevamo che c’era la guerra però. E allora era lì, era il giorno della festa della fontana, Santa Maria alla Fontana, ecco, perché noi era la nostra chiesa. E allora l’ultima volta che ho, che così, è venuto in giro, sai, venivano in giro i carrelli con su il, ah come si chiama, che hanno fatto vedere anche un po’ di tempo fa. Sul carrellino c’era una cosa che
EP: Una manovella che [unclear]
EM: Una manovella e dopo suonava dentro il, perché era fatto tutto di chiodi, no, però c’era
EP: La musica.
EM: La musica, insomma ecco, e allora prendevamo sotto il portone eh, si ballava, [laughs] eh, cosa
Volevo fare?
EP: [laughs] È giusto.
EM: E d’altronde non si faceva mica niente di male. Adesso invece non vanno in nessun posto. Vanno lì nelle cose però non sanno nè ballare nè divertirsi, noi invece con la stupidata ci divertivamo [laughs].
EP: Ehm, e mi dica un po’ signora Enrica, lei ha fatto le scuole sempre lì, in Isola?
EM: Sì, sì, sì.
EP: E come era la scuola lì?
EM: Ah, la scuola lì è sempre stata una scuola abbastanza buona insomma, ecco perché anche adesso la Rosa Govone ci sono tutte le, diciamo dalla prima fino alla terza media. Mio figlio l’ha fatta lì anche lui.
EP: E lei ha finito tutte le scuole lì?
EM: No, gioia, io ho finito che avevo dieci anni, basta. Dovevo mangiare e guardare i signorini lì, eh! Poi dopo [unclear] solo mia mamma non si aveva la, diciamo, i soldi o quello che è di andare, come tanti che stavano bene, si sono, sono sfollati di qua, di là e sono arrivati solo quando, eh, troppo bella! Noi invece con la roba, ‘ci sono le uova là’, si va bene allora [makes the noise of steps] via, quando si arrivava lì sulla roba, basta, dieci, dodici e poi dopo non c’era più niente.
EP: Ehm, lei si ricorda quando è stato dato l’annuncio che si entrava in guerra?
EM: Sì, è nel ‘39.
EP: E lei dov’era? Si ricorda un po’ la situazione com’era?
EM: Sì, sì, la situazione era che tutti dicevano che era la fine del mondo. Ci sono stati dei, [clears throat] come si chiama, dei conti qui a Milano che sono andati a finire a niente perché hanno venduto tutto e poi sono stati fregati perché la fine del mondo non è mica venuta [laughs]. Sì, a quelli che sono stati sotto i bombardamenti. Beh, quelli lì per forza, come quando è finita, prima di finire la guerra che qui a Gorla, alla, seicento e rotti bambini sono stati sotto. Mi ricordo eh, perché mi viene su ancora la pelle d’oca adesso [laughs]. Eh sì!
EP: [sighs] Ehm, quando appunto è stato dato l’annuncio, di, che si entrava in guerra,
EM: Ah sì.
EP: Come ne parlavano gli adulti? Appunto, c’era questa cosa che lei diceva un po’ la fine del mondo.
EM: No, ma ognuno.
EP: Ma voi ragazzini, ragazzi, bambini, cosa vi dicevano, cosa vi spiegavano?
EM: No, no, niente.
EP: Niente.
EM: La, le nostre, i nostri genitori, lei non sono come quelli di adesso. Non dicevano niente. Se sappiamo qualche cosa è perché si sentiva. Perché avevamo le orecchie che [laughs], come si dice, ecco. Ma altrimenti loro non dicevano mica niente, dicevano solo: ‘No, te fuori alla sera dopo l’orario non ci vai!’. Ma il mio papà tante volte mi diceva: ‘No, eh!’. ‘Senti’, cioè mia mamma gli diceva, ‘se vuoi prendere le sigarette mandala adesso che sono le sei, non alle otto’. Perché insomma non c’era in giro nessuno, però, e allora dovevo andarci a prendere le sigarette, facevo in fretta [laughs], perché. No, no, i genitori, i nostri genitori non dicevano mica niente. Noi non, adesso io che sono la prima, sono venuta a saperlo dopo, adesso faccio per dire che una persona doveva avere il bambino quello che è, ma non per lei eh! Ah, perché se no mi tirava dietro anche qualche cosa eh, non si poteva parlare come fanno adesso. Adesso ci sono le bambine lì di sei, sette anni, ‘ah, mia mamma è incinta, ah, mia mamma deve averÈ, oh! Adesso non è per, ma non si può a quell’età lì, adesso, eh! Io momenti che mi sono fatto il fidanzato, che avevo diciotto anni, a momenti momenti mi curava ancora [unclear], teste qui in casa, te va lì come, stava lì sul portone, sulla porta di casa, ecco. Chiacchierava con la gente ma ogni tanto veniva dentro a vedere perché non si poteva stare come adesso che vanno in campagna assieme, no? [laughs] C’erano tutte le regole.
EP: Eh, era diverso.
EM: E con le regole siamo andati anche abbastanza bene. Adesso non perché, perché adesso è proprio, eh, troppo adesso.
EP: Vorrei ritornare ancora un momento indietro e chiederle cosa, cosa succedeva al confine con la Svizzera. Lei prima raccontava che aprivate dei varchi nelle reti.
EM: Sì, sì, dei varchi nelle reti. Dopo lì mio nonno abitava proprio vicino alla, dove c’erano dentro i tedeschi, la, la, come si chiama? Che adesso, che adesso per esempio c’è dentro la Finanza insomma ecco, con la perché adesso ormai non c’è più. C’è dentro la Finanza, di sopra ci sono tutti i letti, tutte le insomma, è proprio una casa insomma, come se fosse. E allora dato che io, oramai con mio nonno così, eravamo proprio lì, si può dire a portone a portone, allora quando passavano con i cani, no, noialtri ragazzi, ‘ah, che bello, Tom, Tim’, insomma si chiamavano e allora loro venivano lì con il cane, insomma non c’hann mai fatto niente. Però se vedevano un adulto, allora [mimics a growling watchdog] ringhiavano, perché era, invece noi no. Dopo lì mio nonno era con una sua, era in casa di una sua parente, una sua cugina. E allora diciamo quella cugina lì aveva dei figli, delle figlie, e [unclear], andava, li lavavano, li stiravano le camice, eh sì tanto anche per prendere qualche cosa. Allora quando ci vedevano giù non, noi facevamo anche a posta, io, mio cugino, insomma così, eravamo quasi tutte della stessa età, e allora si, ‘Ohi, questo, Tom, Tim’, loro stavano lì a chiacchierare, intanto, magari avanti venti passi ma dato che lì è tutto un bosco, avanti venti passi c’era magari mio zio con mio nonno che facevano quel mestiere lì, ecco, allora noi facevamo le spie, ecco [laughs], facevamo le spie, se lo sapevano non so la passavamo liscia, eh! [laughs]
EP: Ehm, e lei cosa ne pensava da bambina dei tedeschi? Le facevano paura o [unclear]?
EM: Sì, sì, anche i ragazzi della mia età, eh, ragazzi proprio, che li davano, facevano i piccoli italiani. E difatti io, mio papà è venuto là una volta perché io facevo la, quando facevo la terza, no, mio papà c’era ancora. È venuto lì perché c’avevo una maestra che era una fascistona e insomma, a me mi lasciava sempre indietro perché io non sono mai andata vestita di piccola italiana. Prima di tutto, mio papà non voleva, perché non aveva lui la tessera del [laughs], secondo è che non avevamo i soldi abbastanza perché eravamo in tre, eh insomma, mia mamma quando faceva la portiera prendeva centosessanta lire al mese. Adesso prendono i milioni e non ne hanno abbastanza ancora [laughs]. E dovevano stare lì dalle sette del mattino fino alle dieci di sera. Adesso fanno otto ore sì e no, oh, pare che facciano tutto loro. Mia mamma aveva tre scale là da fare e senza i ballatoi e tutto. Oh, non è, però insomma, ce la siamo cavata. Anche se io, se mi veniva in, ho cercato ma non li trovo, delle fotografie di quando avevo quell’età lì, no, [unclear] avevo i calamai fino a qui eh, altri quella di.
EP: Ehm, in quartiere Isola sempre, tornando a Via Borsieri, ehm, c’erano i tedeschi? C’erano i fascisti? Giravano i fascisti?
EM: Tutti fascisti.
EP: Tutti fascisti. C’era uno che si chiamava, era. C’era quell’altro che si chiamava, che aveva la sorella e quello lì non mi ricordo più come si chiamava. Li hanno uccisi tutti quando è finita la guerra, lì sulla, la cosa della, lì c’è in Via Sebenico, c’è la chiesa, ecco, e prima c’è un lavatorio. Lì sono pochi anni che hanno messo tutto a posto, perché prima c’erano dentro tutte le mitragliate di quelli che hanno ucciso. E sempre all’orario che venivo a casa io dal lavoro. Io già stare in fondo, perché allora venivo giù, col tram. Il tram faceva solo, qui in Via Plinius, la Via Plinius così, qui prendevo il tram, veniva giù in Via, qual’è che Via l’è quella via, Via, Via, Via, eh, non mi ricordo, che viene la stazione, basta, dopo non venivano di qui. Basta, girava tutto di là e andava a metà strada, a metà Viale Zara, dunque io ero tutto fuori, eh, ho detto: ‘Piuttosto di fare di là, faccio di qua e arrivo subito in casa’. Allora sempre a piedi, sempre, se avrei qui cinque centesimi, cinque centesimi, di tutta la strada che ho fatto, sarei millionaria.
EP: [laughs] E il 25 aprile se lo ricorda?
EM: Eh, sì, perché venivo a casa dal lavoro e sono arrivata lì alla stazione centrale perché il fratello di Neglia aveva avvisato, ‘Manda a casa tutti, perché interveniamo’, insomma così. E allora, ma quella che abitava più distante ero io perché da Via Plinius venire qui in Borsiere è un bel pezzo. Insomma, sono venuta via di là alle dieci. Sa a che ora sono arrivata a casa? Che è tutta strada diritta? Ma non ho potuto fare la strada diritta perché quando sono stata lì in Via, arca miseria, insomma lì in Duca d’Aosta, no, che la [unclear], qui c’è, ehm, petta come si chiamava quello lì, l’albergo che c’è lì così, proprio di fronte, di fianco alla stazione centrale, lì c’è un albergone grande. Questi sparavano su, quelli là sparavano giù, eh, e non ho potuto passare perché mi è venuto incontro un ragazzo che abitava lì verso Borsieri in Casteglia e mi fa: ’Signorina, dove sta andando lei?’. E vu dì: ‘Io dovrei passare e andare a casa, abito in Borsieri’. ‘Orca miseria’, fa, ‘allora’, fa, ‘tagliamo dentro di là’. E siamo andati fuori, dove c’è la, come si chiama quella là, quella zona lì. Arca miseria, quasi Porta Nuova, abbiamo girato dall’altra parte, insomma, e siamo andati lì. Arriviamo lì a Porta Nuova, non si può passare, perché lì c’erano le scuole, ci sono, sono ancora le scuole, e c’erano i, le camice nere, che prendevano tutti i ragazzi, così, e li portavano dentro perché insomma si vede insomma che avevano paura, non so di che cosa comunque. Allora lì c’era, dove c’è la finanza adesso, in quella via lì, ecco. Allora lì di dietro c’era giù la casa e allora cosa abbiamo fatto? Cammina cammina, e ci siamo arrampicati su sulla casa e siamo andati giù in Corso Como. Arriviamo lì in Corso Como, allora c’era il passaggio che la ferrovia, no, il coso lì e un po’ il ponte che andava giù in Corso Como. Arriviamo lì, eh, e chi, dalla Borsieri, dal fondo della Borsieri, sparavano dentro e questi qui sparavano fuori perché c’era lì la, quelli lì della, perché lì prima, una volta, lì di dietro insomma, c’era la Finanza perché arrivava roba di così, era tutto lì insomma, era smistamento ecco. E allora ma c’erano lì i tedeschi e allora, quello là sparavano fuori, questi qui sparavano dentro. E allora stavamo lì, no, a pensarci su, adesso qui, se facciamo tutto il giro da Carlo Farini e così, ma dopo là in Postrengo [Pastrengo], come si fa a passare? E allora in quella è arrivato due signori, no, un po’ abbastanza, e allora c’hann detto: ‘Ohè, anche noi abitiamo di là del pontÈ. Sì, va bene, allora tutti in quattro, prima uno e poi quando non si sentiva più a sparare, passava quell’altro perché c’erano le cose fatte dei muretti così, così, così insomma per le bombe, per la, perché se mitragliavano lei li correva in giro a quei muretti lì e insomma si cercava di. E difatti sono arrivata a casa alle otto di sera. [laughs]
EP: [laughs] Una lunga giornata.
EM: Una lunga giornata. Sono venuta via di là alle dieci del mattino. Mia mamma che non, era lì che continuava ad andare avanti indietro, non sapeva più cosa, cosa averne in tasca, ti te se, te non sai più cosa ce n’hai in tasca ma io che sono stata lì.
EP: Prima di andare verso la nostra conclusione, volevo chiederle, come mai chiamavate le camicie nere scelbini?
EM: Eh perché, ehm, come si chiama, portavano come un fazzoletto, come una cosa, che, e poi avevano su il coso del fascio, che la roba proprio, perché la, loro la. Allora disevano, uhè, ghe scelbini, perché se ghe disevo, miscimis, [laughs] capiven. Invece a dire scelbini [laughs], noi sapevamo che erano loro.
EP: E adesso le faccio due ultime domande che riguardano proprio chi bombardava. All’epoca, lei che era una ragazza, insomma una ragazzina, insomma
EM: Sì, una ragazzina, ma [unclear]
EP: Sì, che cosa pensava di chi bombardava, di chi buttava giù le bombe?
EM: Eh, si pensava appunto di dover dire: ‘Ma caspita’, vu dì, se vengon, ma si diceva, se vengono dall’America e così, e passavano sopra la Svizzera, eh, per venire qui. Perché io, quando dormivo al letto, con mia mamma, ecco, io, prima che loro suonavano l’allarme, io ero già su eh, li sentivo, io. Se c’è una cosa, io, avere la testa sul cuscino, io la sento. Ancora adesso, eh. Vede, tante volte mio fratello mi dice: ‘Ma come fai a sentire?’ Eh, la sento! Arriva la, tante volte sento che svegliano. Arriva la croce rossa, ma come fai a sapere? Eppur, mi alzo, dopo si sente. È una cosa che subito sento.
EP: E a distanza di tanti anni, che cosa pensa adesso?
EM: Eh, penso che, che era meglio che non facevano niente perché di cose, e poi ancora adesso, quando apro la televisione che sento certe cose, guardi, adesso non perché ma adesso non fanno più quelli che facevano prima, però sono lì eh! Sono lì! Perché prima, quando in tempo di guerra, i giovani se li prendevano che avevano venti, ventuno anni, no, così e la mandavano a Villa, spetta come si chiamava, a Villa d’Este, sa dov’è la Villa d’Este qui a Milano? Vicino al, mamma mia, che memoria che [unclear], ce l’ho ma non sono più capace di, a Musocco, ecco. Musocco, sulla destra, eh, andando così a metà strada di Musocco c’era una, una caserma, una casa, lì, quello che è, e allora una volta di lì passava un fossetto, un fosso insomma, e lì dicevano la Villa d’Este perché ogni tanto trovavano qualcuno e lo buttavano fuori dalla finestra, dentro nell’acqua perché, tutto perché? Perché volevano, ma non tutti sapevamo che, perché sai sentivano per televisione, per radio, no? La radio bisognava sentirla ma nascosti, lì tutti con le orecchie così perché se mi vedevano, mi sentivano, guai! Venivano in casa, distruggevano tutto, eh. Altroché, bisognava stare attenti come si faceva. Se una persona guardava due volte, mettiamo, uno di loro, il fucile veniva giù dalla spalla e facevano quello che dovevano fare. Altroché.
EP: Va bene. Io la ringrazio moltissimo signora Enrica perché possiamo interrompere adesso.
EM: Sì, sì.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Enrica Mariani
Description
An account of the resource
Enrica Mariani recollects her wartime experiences in Milan: her brother dying of bronchitis after spending too much time in the shelter and her father working in an armaments factory. The aggressive fascist militiamen and the long hours she spent in the shelter listening to a man playing the guitar and singing songs mocking the regime. She recalls her partisan husband, who was repeatedly jailed for spreading subversive propaganda material. She describes the 1943 bombings when she narrowly escaped an incendiary. She remembers working at a very young age as a seamstress, following her father’s death and her mother leaving her job as a doorman. She stresses the social divide among evacuees: the better off were afraid to lose their wealth while working class people had a fatalistic, resigned attitude toward war. She discusses helping people fleeing to Switzerland by breaching the border fence, as to avoid detention as military internees in Germany and describes draft-dodgers living in hideouts. She recalls how she was able to sense incoming aircraft well before the alarm sounded.
Creator
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Erica Picco
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-12-09
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:03:49 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMarianiE171209, PMarianiE1701
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Bizzarone
Switzerland
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1943
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/PBirelliG1701.1.jpg
9c75ae32c45c0ae26726392ca6e85d6c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/ABirelliG171223.2.mp3
09f10c8588a2ca32dff84c4370287a0a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Birelli, Giuliana
Giuliana Birelli
G Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giuliana Birelli who recollects her wartime experiences in rural Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Birelli, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GF: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Greta Fedele. L’intervistato è Birelli Giuliana. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted], presso la casa della signora Giuliana il 23 dicembre 2017.
GB: Allora.
GF: Grazie mille per aver accettato di parlare con noi. Volevo chiederle, così per iniziare, prima che iniziasse la guerra, quanti anni aveva, dove viveva, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, quello che vuole.
GB: Allora io avevo sei anni. Già parte?
GF: Sì, sì.
GB: Sei anni e vivevo a Lisciano Niccone Perugia, Perugia, per cui ero una bambina piccola mi ricordo appena appena. Mio papà e la mia mamma, c’avevano, facevano il contadino e a noi bimbi che eravamo otto, otto bimbi, ci ha portato tutto in mezzo ai boschi, ci ha fatto tutto come un rifugio in mezzo ai boschi e siamo stati lì giorno e notte perché i tedeschi venivano casa per casa. A un certo punto quando sono arrivati, non so se erano i partigiani che bombardavano, hanno bombardato un ponte da Lisciano Niccone per andare a Mercatale, quel ponte lì l’hanno spianato. Mercatale di Cortona, Arezzo. Era un’altra provincia, non era Perugia. Comunque a noi c’hanno spazzato la casa, portavano via vino, portavano via prosciutti, se trovavano le ragazze, le molestavano anche, le facevano del male, e in più, eh niente, i uomini li prendevano, li portavano via. E la mia mamma, che era una donna che aveva otto figli, per andare a trovare un figlio all’ospedale sono stati rapinati dai tedeschi. E loro, posso andà avanti?
GF: Certo, certo.
GB: E loro, eh, cioè, briachi come erano, l’avevano portati al loro rifugio. Erano due signore, la mamma, la mia mamma, e un’amica che andavano a trovare na figlia che era operata in ospedale a Perugia, cosa hanno fatto? Quei tedeschi lì si erano addormentati che erano talmente briachi, loro piano piano piano sono scappati, sono andati da na famiglia e sono riusciti a scappare, se no, non so cosa gli capitava. Poi eh, io che posso dire?
GF: Ma si ricorda il giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra?
GB: eh, [unclear]
GF: Cosa stava facendo? Se era a scuola, era a casa? Come gliel’hanno detto i suoi genitori?
GB: E [unclear], quando è scoppiata la guerra io non ti so dire.
GF: Ok.
GB: Quando è finita praticamente, finita di, a giugno mi sembra, no? Che dopo c’erano, erano arrivati i tedeschi, erano arrivati i americani per liberare l’Italia, no? E dopo è finita quella maniera lì. Io non mi ricordo più di niente eh perché ci vogliono i vecchi eh che si ricordano ste cose [laughs], non una bambina così.
GB: E quando andava a scuola durante la guerra, si ricorda se le maestre le, vi spiegavano cosa stava succedendo? Come vi dovevate comportare?
GB: Era già finita la guerra quando io sono andata a scuola, perché allora si andava da sette anni. Io non avevo sette in anni in quel momento lì. Allora no, con le maestre se ne parlava dopo di guerre che avevano distrutto proprio il paese ma no, quel momento della guerra io a scuola non andavo. E niente, così. E portato via tutti i prosciutti, tutti de, i maiali, le bestie perché prendevano anche le bestie grandi, le mucche, i vitelli, portavano tutti i tedeschi eh.
GF: E sono venuti proprio nella vostra casa?
GB: Casa, sì, sì, sì, sì, noi si dormiva al bosco c’aveva fatto il rifugio il papà, no? Aveva fatto il rifugio a noi, [unclear] stava giorno e notte su, lu camminava, li curava dove andavano, perché andavano a gruppi loro, no? Fare kaput dicevano, hai capito? Allora li curava, andava giù, prendeva la roba per darci da mangiare. Portava anco le bestie, aveva fatto il rifugio anco per le bestie perché spazzavano via tutto eh.
GF: E avevate paura?
GF: Cavoli, molta paura, molta paura perché si sentivano, arrivavano i caccia, arrivavano i caccia proprio e, Perugia è montagne e pianura, no? Venivano fuori dalla montagna, sembrava ti cadessero addosso, sì, sì, questo me lo ricordo bene eh. Che ancora quando li vedi hai quel punto di paura, sì.
GF: Perché li vedeva vicino questi aerei.
GB: Vicino, cioè sbucavano dalla montagna, s’abbassavano proprio, è na cosa che è rimasta proprio da noialtri bambini, mhm mhm mhm. E niente, dopo io non so cosa ti devo dire.
GF: E suonavano gli alarmi quando si avvicinavano questi aerei per avvisarvi?
GB: No, no, no, niente allarmi da quelle parti lì, niente allarmi, niente, niente, no, no, nessuno ti avvisava che scoppiava una mina, che arrivavano magari dalla montagna a fianco buttavano la mina dall’altra parte, niente, arrivava il boom della mina e basta, hai capito? Io mi ricordo che finita cioè era giugno che si falciavano il grano e na mina mi è caduta proprio dove falciavano il grano, aveva fatto una buca che sembrava che chissà cos’era caduta. Di morti no, però lo spavento tanti, tanti, tanto spavento. Loro che erano con tutti sti bambini piccoli figurati, ero la penultima, eh.
GF: Quindi aveva dei fratelli più grandi.
GB: Erano tutti più grandi,
GF: Tutti più grandi.
GB: Quegli altri, tutti ragazzini erano capisci. Sposata era una sola e il fratello, quello che è morto adesso, se no le altre erano tutte piccole, quelle più grandi di me ce n’erano tre femmine, tre ragazze. Dopo.
GF: E I suoi fratelli maschi? Qualcuno era soldato all’epoca o erano troppo piccoli?
GB: No, no, erano troppi piccoli per andare soldati. No, no, loro non, cioè, noi dalla nostra parte militari nessuno, no. E il papà non l’ha fatto, non l’hanno preso perché aveva tutti figli hai capito? Aveva questi otto figli, non poteva, e poi andare a fare il militare perché c’aveva anco il papà e la mamma vecchi, nonni. Eh, hai capito? La casa non era sbarcata, non avevano toccato la casa solo che noi l’avevamo abbandonata dalla paura. Mhm mhm mhm.
GF: Ehm, e quindi mi diceva che spesso questi aerei volavano vicino a voi.
GB: Sì, vicino, sì, sì, uscivano dalla montagna, della montagna di Passignano sul Trasimeno, sempre Perugia e lì, eh, Lisciano Niccone su una vallata piana. E uscivano da quella montagna, sembrava che toccavano i rami delle piante poi si abbassavano, [makes a lowpitched droning noise] e partivano tutte, sì, si.
GF: E sganciavano delle bombe?
GB: E dalle parti sì eh, dalle parti delle montagne le lanciavano, no sulla pianura.
GF: E voi lo vedevate?
GB: E sì eh, le si hann viste, io due bombe ho visto a scoppiare, dalla campagna dove mietevano il grano, dove falciavano il grano e dalla vallata proprio dove a fianco di noi della nostra casa. Eh sì!
GF: E si ricorda che sentimenti ha provato in quel momento?
GB: Brivido di paura, brivido di paura che adesso è la fine, se per caso invece di prendere la montagna di là prendevano dove, perché tutti i contadini avevano fatto il rifugio dalle montagne, dal bosco, no? Ma se per caso ti prende di qua che non c’è nessuno prendevano lì, spianavano le famiglie intere, sì. Eh, paura, molta paura, piccola però ti ricordi ancora quel brivido lì. Mhm mhm.
GF: E suo papà le raccontava cosa stava succedendo?
GB: Eh, veniva su, aveva paura, ‘stete dentro, stete dentro’, sai noi ragazzine, eh si giocava, noi, zitti zitti, si doveva sempre stare zitti, sempre a silenzio. E io ero quasi la più piccola, però quelle altre che erano ragazzine più grande, c’è sempre tre anni, una tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, c’erano anche ce avevano quasi vent’anni eh, più anche. Eh no, comunque è stata una cosa, che io la so raccontare male perché ero piccolina ma i vecchi se c’era qualche vecchio la raccontava meglio di me, sicuro, sicuro. E niente così.
GF: Quindi stavate in questo rifugio in mezzo ai boschi che aveva costruito suo papà.
GB: In mezzo al bosco, in mezzo al bosco, tutti coperti, tutte, tutte, aveva fatto sto rifugio sotto e l’aveva tutto coperto di rami che loro anco se scendevano dalla montagna i caccia non vedevano eh. Alla sera era sempre buio eh, alla sera mica accendevi luci eh.
GF: Tutto spento.
GB: Tutto spento, tutti zitti, tutti spenti. Era così.
GF: E come passivate il tempo in quei momenti?
GB: Come passivate? Noi ragazze, noi, io ero bambina ma le ragazze più grandi avevano voglia di giocare, di fare. Eh ma sai, c’era la paura dovevi stare zitte, con la paura stavi zitti, o morire, o stare zitti eh.
GF: E sapevate chi era che vi stava bombardando?
GB: Erano, erano tedeschi quelli, i tedeschi. Tedeschi che venivano, no? Perché sapevano che c’erano lì per, persone, tedeschi. E dopo sono arrivati i partigiani, no? I partigiani. Era il tedesco che colpiva il partigiano. Come anche in Lombardia, no? Scendevano dalle montagne quando era finita la guerra, tutti sti partigiani, tutti sti belli ragazzi. Questo me l’ho sentita raccontare perché io qui avevo un cognato, il fratello de Benito che era qui, e ha sposato una lombarda e lui si era innamorato di sta ragazza, tempo di guerra ma non potevano stare assieme. Cosa ha fatto? Lui è andato partigiano, è andato partigiano ai monti è andato, ma tanti l’hanno uccisi de sti partigiani. Dopo quando è venuto a casa che è tornato dai monti, l’ha sposata. Hai capito? Sì, sì, anche sta storia perché io del sessanta dopo sono venuta, sono sposata, sono venuta su in Lombardia, questi la. Io raccontavo la guerra di quella laggiù e loro questa. Loro più partigiani in Lombardia. Laggiù, giù da noi partigiani un po’ meno. Tanti tedeschi, tedeschi hanno fatto spazza pulita se non arrivavano gli americani, eh.
GF: E lei si ricorda quando sono arrivati gli americani?
GB: E quando sono arrivati i americani quando hanno detto, io non me la ricordo cosa avranno detto però che è finita la guerra tutti, tutti, un urlo de gioia, capito?
GF: Avete festeggiato?
GB: Eh, tutti contenti, contadini se sono radunati, hanno buttato via le bare, le baracche che avevano fatto [laughs], tutti no, perché qui c’è il contadino, qui c’è un altro, qui c’è un altro, eravamo tutta una zona di contadini, sì. E comunque c’è stato perché dopo noi avevamo su, l’altro paesino che sarà stato un chilometro e mezzo che non si poteva andare perché avevano bombardato il ponte e che non passavi per andare all’altro paese ch’avevamo la farmacia, avevamo tutto di là perché c’è poco. Loro facevano un’altra provincia noi un’altra però come, loro, il comune era di Cortona, noi eravamo di Lisciano Niccone, noi era il paese più piccolo però aveva il comune, ha il comune. Pensi che quello è un paese più grosso e non ha il comune, deve fare chilometri per andare al comune. E allora per quanto non si poteva andare né in farmacia, niente, non dovevano. Sai, era il ponte grande, c’era l’acqua per attraversare se non c’è il ponte dove traversi? Loro avevano messo qualcosa tra i due comuni quando è finita la guerra per podè passare da un paese all’altra. E niente, così.
GF: Quindi lei si ricorda questo ponte distrutto.
GB: Sì, sì, sì, distrutto, che non sapevano dove andare, per andare in farmacia, per andare tante cose di là c’erano, c’erano le banche che noi non avevamo le banche di qua perché le banche sono dalla parte de sto paesino qua, ancora oggi, per esempio mio fratello, eh, mio fratello che è morto, ha tutti i soldi da quelle banche lì e noi non riusciamo a prendere niente perché quella de Monte Paschi di Siena è lì, hai capito? E’ tutta, tutta na storia, na catena che noi non avevamo la banca di qua. Perché, per andare a Perugia la regione proprio, la, dovevi andare a quaranta chilmetri per andare a Perugia, Perugia, eravamo più dalla parte di Arezzo, eh, hai capito? Così.
GF: Quindi suo padre faceva fatica.
GB: E quand’è stata sì, il momento di guerra che ha durato un po’, no? Io adesso de preciso non te so dì quanto ha durato però ha durato un po’ per, c’aveva i anziani, nonni, c’aveva i genitori lui, noi nonni, che avevano bisogno delle medicine, hai capito? Un certo momento la nonna si è ammalata e non passavano, non podevano andare con le macchine perché allora non c’erano strade, le portavano con la, con li carrelli così, eh, era una vita proprio de medio evo, no? Sì, sì. Ecco, e così.
GF: Ma quando stavate nel rifugio lei si sentiva sicura?
GB: Nel rifugio sì perché era,
GF: Si sentiva sicura.
GB: Loro avevano scavato sti uomini e poi l’avevano tutta coperta de sta roba qui, eh sei sicura, solo se dovevano venire le mine come, n’ann buttate due, eh, che mi ricordo io, era difficile che le buttavano però due l’hann buttate proprio dalla fine della guerra, quelle due l’hann buttate e dopo quando hanno bombardato il ponte di là è stata, è stata, gli aerei da una parte l’altra l’hann buttate giù a più non posso eh quel ponte lì, sì. E niente comunque hanno spezzato, hanno spezzato i due comuni, eh, eh. E che te voglio dire?
GF: E avevate dei parenti che vivevano nell’altro comune, delle persone che conoscevate?
GB: Eh sì, certo che avevamo delle persone si [unclear], capirai, un chilometro te conosci tutte, le banche, la farmacia, se volevi andare a tagliare i capelli dovevi andare dalla parte di là che di qua non c’è, eh certo che conoscevi, eh, hai capito?
GF: Quindi è stato complicato.
GB: Molto, molto, molto, Io me la ricordo la paura ecco, quella grande paura che dovevi proprio stare zitta e stare più rifugiata che potevi perché quando vedevano che camminava una donna con bambino erano guai eh, erano guai. Noi non ci faceva scendere più da sta collinetta ci ha fatto sta capanna con terrata giù per terra perché ha scavato poi tutta chiusa, tanto per noi famigliari che per le bestie che poteva salvare perché aveva i vitelli, aveva maiali, aveva le, tutte ste bestie qui loro le caricavano eh. Avevano i cani (?), caricavano tutto loro eh. Tedeschi caricavano tutto. Quando avevano, vedevano una cantinina, no? Come per esempio giù, na finestrina che buttavano giù, entravano dentro perché sapevano che c’erano i prosciutti, c’erano i salami hai capito? Erano delinquenti proprio i tedeschi, eh.
GF: E cosa pensava di chi vi stava bombardando? Cosa pensavate?
GB: No, lo parlava il papà che erano tedeschi, eh. Tedeschi, sono tedeschi poi si, dialetto che avevano, fare kaputte, fare kaputte, dice: ‘State attenti ragazze se loro dicono fare kaputte, fare kaputte, v’ammazzano, eh, state zitti, qua ammazzano, eh’. E avevano, sì, si sapeva che erano tedeschi, certo. E papà lo diceva.
GF: E dopo la liberazione quindi avete festeggiato, siete potuti tornare a casa vostra.
GB: Sì, dopo, tutti contadini, tutti sono beh, dopo è venuta la trebbiatura del grano, con le macchine hanno fatto grande festa a tutti, eh sì. Sono arrivati americani che hann salvato tutto eh. Sì.
GF: E i rifugi quindi li avete abbandonati.
GB: E il rifugio, niente, è rimasto lì, abbandonato perché che vuoi ie fai tutto de legno, tutto de coto, il bosco era del nostro, eh è rimasto lì, e dopo a poco a poco si è ripreso la legna [laughs] hai capito?
GF: E quindi dopo che è finita la guerra lei ha incominciato ad andare a scuola.
GB: A scuola, sì, dopo si parlava, le maestre, io non me la ricordo cosa avrebbero detto però la guerra è stata parlata per parecchio tempo, eh. Che se ringraziavano americani come avrè visto il padre eterno,come nasce il bambino adesso perché se no non so. [phone rings] Adesso risponderà lui eh. Hai capito?
GF: E quindi il sentimento più grande che provavate era la paura. Tantissima paura.
GB: La paura, la paura di morire, la paura che buttassero qualche mina, qualche bomba che ci, la paura di morire, e noi si doveva stare sempre zitti. Si giocava a carte zitti zitti, eh, quelle robe lì facevi perché [unclear] come cadeva la sera era buio. E che? Più di dormire non facevi, che potevi fare? Da bambini.
GF: E si ricorda se pregavate per caso?
GB: Anche pregare sì, molto. Eh, la mia mamma ci faceva pregare, che finisse presto sta brutalità, lei poverina aveva avuto anche quella brutta avventura di essere, oè, se loro non erano addormentati non so cosa gli facevano eh. Venivano violentate, venivano. Perché quel momento lì non c’erano pullman, non c’erano niente. Lei aveva una parente che era all’ospedale, quaranta chilometri, loro andavano a piedi sti quaranta chilometri per andare a trovare sta parente che era operata dall’ulcera, dall’appendice, e, e niente, l’hann prese, camminavano sulla strada, l’hann prese, l’hann caricate intal camion, caricate tal camion, l’hanno portate dal loro rifugio perché loro avevano i rifugi, eh, i tedeschi, capito? Avevano preso le case proprio e loro dalla piena notte che dormivano, che erano briachi, perché loro s’ambriacavano eh, bevevano da matti, dove andavano che trovavano il vino erano briachi. Allora loro pian pian piano sono riusciti a uscire, hanno visto il lumino, na casettina c’era il lumino, sono andati a bussare da sta casetta, son venuti fuori due vecchietti, l’hann fatte entrare, poi dopo la mattina, l’hann raccontato così, alla mattina hann preso e son tornate a casa. Sì, non sono andate più neanche a trovare quella là in ospedale. E’ na cosa che lei l’ha vissuta sulla sua pelle, eh? Eh, lo diceva sempre: ‘State zitti, state zitti, che vi ammazzano’ eh, tutte ste parole.
GF: E voi non vi eravate accorti che erano state rapite?
GB: Eh no, perché erano partite per l’ospedale, dormivano da qualche parte là in ospedale e no, dopo quando è tornata, che è tornata il giorno dopo, ha detto che neanche era andata. Io, ricordato da lei eh sempre perché quel momento lì io on me la ricordo proprio. Ricorda lei che è stata una esperienza proprio bruttissima, sì, sì. [pauses] Eh, loro s’ambriacavano, portavano, briachi com’erano non gli hanno fatto niente dopo quando si svegliavano era il guaio ma loro pian pian piano sono uscite, sono riuscite a scappare che non avevano chiuso, hann visto sto lumino di notte, insomma, e bella che erano ancora al rifugio de loro, hai capito? Gli è andata bene, gli è andata benone, ha raccontato, diceva, io posso ringraziare proprio, signore perché m’è andata bene, mhm mhm mhm.
GF: E adesso che sono passati tanti anni, cosa pensa delle persone che vi bombardavano?
GB: Eh, un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, quando si parla della Germania, chi è che ha sofferto così non è tanta bella, eh, no. No, no. Un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, perché l’Italia l’hanno spacciata fuori quel momento lì eh, non so perché la volevano tanta con l’Italia. I vecchi lo sanno però, eh, i vecchi vecchi lo sanno perché c’era sta grande cosa per il Duce per che cosa, eh? Eh, per forza. Ma io non ti posso raccontare perché non la so questa la storia perché ce la volevano tante l’italiani, non la so. Hai capito? Così.
GB: E si ricorda se sono arrivati dei partigiani lì dove abitavate voi, si ricorda di averli visti?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, i partigiani sì, i partigiani erano dalla nostra parte eh, cavoli! Loro difendevano gli italiani, ste matti, i partigiani sì, eh. Ma pochi, pochi partigiani, più loro, più i tedeschi, e americani, dopo quando sono arrivati americani hanno pulito l’Italia proprio, mhm mhm.
GF: E lei li ha visti gli americani o non se la ricorda?
GB: Io non me lo ricordo sai, non me la ricordo, i tedeschi me la ricordo bene. I tedeschi me la ricordo bene perché passavano da quelle, loro avevano giù le taverne, le cantine, no, quelle robe, loro li facevano vedere, io non c’ho niente, non c’ho niente, ma loro da fuori vedevano io ti sparo, apri per andare giù perché [unclear] mio papà quante volte gliel’hann puntato il fucile, io ti sparo, giù cosa c’hai? Quello che [unclear] gli portavano via tutto, eh.
GF: Volevano il cibo.
GB: Eh il cibo volevano, prosciutto, vino, salami, polli se avevi polli, tutto, tutto, vitelli, maiali, tutto caricavano perché c’erano quelli che andavano per le case e c’era quello coi cani, no? Caricavano tutto, tutto caricavano.
GF: E voi avevate degli animali anche?
GB: E anche gli animali perché lui, maiali, tutte delle robe più, anche i vitelli giovani che allora costavano. Gli aveva fatto la capanna al bosco eh, perché gli caricano un vitello, gli caricano tutta la loro interesse de un anno eh, hai capito? E così, comunque l’hanno vissuta male sti vecchietti poeretti, mhm mhm.
GF: Facevate fatica a trovare da mangiare in quel periodo?
GB: E da c’era anche la tessera, davano la tessera, capisci? C’era la tessera e coi tanti figli c’era [unclear] io adesso non ti so spiegare questo, c’era la tessera, tanta roba, anche il sale era con la tessera e il latte avevano le capre tutto il più se mangiava ste bestie che erano in casa, le custodiva, ammazzavano anche i maiali eh? Perché che mangiavi? [laughs] In mancanza de altro mazzavano quello che avevano lì. Al posto de farlo portar via dai tedeschi. Eh sì.
GF: E, prima parlavamo del ponte. Il ponte poi dopo la guerra l’hanno ricostruito?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, sì. Sì, io l’ho visto costruito bene, sì, sì, sì. Sì, i due, i due comuni si sono messi d’accordo, l’hann fatto il ponte, sì. No, no, hann fatto tutto come era prima, sì.
GF: E la sua famiglia dopo la guerra ha ricominciato a fare i contadini.
GB: Fare i contadini, a fare il tabacco, che allora facevano il tabacco, facevano il grano, allora fare i contadini e mio fratello fino a che poteva ha giù na campagna che noi se riuscisse, perché lui non ha figli, è tutta in mano nostra. Si deve pagare l’ICI, si deve pagare per la terra, ha là na campagna che vale, vale soldi, molti soldi vale, e lui l’ha lavorata tanta, c’ha preso miliardi col tabacco che allora facevano il tabacco, funzionava l’agricoltura del tabacco, poi il grano, granturco, tutto il frumentone no? Eh, hanno fatto soldi, hanno una casa che è una villa lui, na villa, de tre piani, na villa, con tutta, tutta fatta grande, tutta recintata, e l’ha chiusa, pensa, e l’ha chiusa. Non sappiamo da chi darla, non sappiamo perché di case ce ne son tante abbandonate perché dopo è venuta la crisi, eh, come è stato, come non è stato, il nonno è corso dove c’era il lavoro, no? E allora, ste case sono abbandonate si può dire.
GF: E oltre ai tedeschi, si ricorda anche se vedevate dei fascisti?
GB: Io non me la ricordo questi, no, no, non me la ricordo. Da quei paesini lì non me la ricordo ma può darsi a Roma, e quelle robe lì c’erano sì i fascisti, c’erano sì, c’erano sì. Ma io non me la ricordo che parlavano di fascisti.
GF: Bene. Io la ringrazio tantissimo per la sua testimonianza bellissima.
GB: Ma che me ringrazi? Che t’ho detto quello che ho potuto.
GF: Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro?
GB: Che devo andà aggiungere? Che io sò, aggiungere, che io son partita da Lisciano Niccone il 31 gennaio del , no del duemila, 1960.
GF: E si è trasferita?
GB: E sono venuta in Lombardia. E mi sono formata la mia famiglia in Lombardia, con un figlio medico e tre nipoti [laughs]. Adesso questo l’ha registrato [laughs]?
GF: Grazie mille.
GB: [laughs] Ecco basta.
GF: Adesso stoppo.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Giuliana Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
Giuliana Birelli remembers growing up in a family of farmers in Tuscany, at a juncture in which German soldiers raided houses searching for food and harassing women. She tells various episodes: partisans actions, time spent in a makeshift shelter her father had built in a nearby wood, the fear of being hit, bombs dropped in a field during the harvest and the arrival of American soldiers. Recalls how her mother and a friend were captured by drunken German soldiers and how they managed to escape. She recollects farmers cheering at the end of the war.
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Greta Fedele
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2017-12-23
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Peter Schulze
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00:28:17 audio recording
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ita
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ABirelliG171223
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Civilian
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Italy--Arezzo
Italy--Perugia
Italy
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/114/1173/ADelfinoG171029.1.mp3
82938fcfa0094b054fdc2fa441873da9
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Delfino, Giovanni
Giovanni Delfino
G Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects her wartime experiences in the Milan and Cremona areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-10-29
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Delfino, G
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ST: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre, l’intervistatrice è Sara Troglio, l’intervistato è Giovanni Delfino, e l’intervista ha luogo a casa dell’intervistato in [omitted] a Carate Brianza. Oggi è il 29 Ottobre 2017 e sono le ore 17. Volevo chiederti un po’ della tua vita prima della guerra, dove abitavate, appunto, ciò che ti ricordavi sul tuo quartiere.
GD: Allora, come ha già detto l’intervistatrice, sono Giovanni Delfino, classe 1933, ai tempi del racconto avevo undici anni, undici, dodici anni, perché parliamo del ’44-’45. Precedentemente all’avvenimento devo dire che la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era situato in Via Petitti al numero 11, che era una via adiacente alla Via Traiano che confinava con gli stabilimenti Alfa Romeo del Portello, i primi stabilimenti che erano stati fatti a Milano. Fino a quel momento, io la guerra l’avevo diciamo così sentita un po’ da lontano perché i miei genitori avevano provveduto a farmi sfollare nella zona di Cremona da nostri parenti dimodoché io ad un certo momento quando c’era un incursione aerea su Milano li sentivo solamente per sentito dire, oppure quando succedevano di notte da questa distanza che erano circa 60 chilometri, io vedevo i bagliori delle parti delle case incendiate eccetera perché essendo campagna tutta piatta si riusciva a vedere i bagliori da Milano. Caso vuole che ormai considerando che la guerra stava finendo, i miei genitori decisero di ritornare a casa e qui successe il fattaccio, successe il fattaccio perché dunque la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era adiacente ad un convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù, circondato da altissimi muraglioni alti, alti, alti, e intorno c’eran tutte, vuoi l’Alfa Romeo, e vuoi piccole aziende e altra campagna cioè prati, più che altro coltivazioni di ortaggi, eccetera eccetera. Dico questo perché una particolarità, tutte le siepi che circondavano queste ortaglie erano diciamo, luogo, diciamo, di ritrovo degli operai di queste ditte, piccole ditte che, finito l’orario di mensa, si mettevano per quei pochi minuti che rimanevano ancora a giocare a carte o a dama all’ombra di queste siepi. Il giorno che sto per raccontare era un giorno, non mi ricordo bene se luglio o agosto, era sul mezzogiorno. Gli operai erano tutti sotto queste siepi a giocare, eccetera eccetera. Io ero appena tornato da, dalla spesa, dall’aver fatto la spesa con mia mamma, che si trovava sull’androne del caseggiato insieme ad altre persone perché sotto c’era un bar, e insieme a un ufficiale dell’aereonautica militare italiana. Io ero lì che guardavo, curiosavo e la, come fanno tutti i bambini, questi operai che giocavano a carte, a dama, eccetera eccetera. A un certo momento, suona il piccolo allarme. Il piccolo allarme, allora c’era il piccolo allarme e il grande allarme. Il piccolo allarme veniva dato quando le squadriglie erano distanti abbastanza da Milano. In quel momento lì invece cosa successe? Successe che, con questo piccolo allarme, l’ufficiale che c’era insieme lì a mia mamma che stava chiacchierando, sentendo il rombo così degli aerei, guardò in alto e già a una certa distanza, essendo anche pratico, insomma, del mestiere [laughs], vide che c’era questa squadriglia altissima, altissima no, di Liberator, dice, famosi Liberator, e il caposquadriglia aveva fatto, aveva iniziato a fare una manovra, diciamo così, di circoscrizione della zona che, a detta dell’ufficiale dell’areonautica, era un segnale per, diciamo, l’inizio del bombardamento. Al che, l’ufficiale gridò subito: ‘Bombardano, bombardano!’, mia madre, immaginare lo spavento, io, come tutti i bambini che quando vengono richiamati dalle proprie madri, no, ci mettono una, due, tre volte prima di decidersi a rispondere, a obbedire, come sentii il grido di mia mamma, partii come un razzo e arrivai di volata, percorsi questi cinquanta, sessanta metri, quelli che potevano essere, arrivai sotto all’androne della casa. In quel momento arrivavano le prime bombe. Lo spostamento d’aria buttò mia madre, l’ufficiale ed io giù per la tromba delle scale, verso i rifugi, che normalmente una volta si chiamavano rifugi ma, insomma, erano quello che erano, erano le cantine, e fortunatamente in fondo alle scale c’era un mucchio di sabbia, che veniva messo per gli incendi, eventualmente spegnere gli incendi, e io ero davanti, dietro c’era mia mamma, l’ufficiale, e giù tutti a capo di collo e io mi infilai con la testa dentro nel mucchio della sabbia, mi ferii la testa, infatti sto facendo vedere ancora la cicatrice all’intervistatrice. E finisce così, frastuono, polvere, e devo dire che a distanza adesso di anni, ragionando adesso dai miei ottantaquattro anni, devo dire, sinceramente, che io non provai grande spavento perché probabilmente la situazione era stata così rapida, traumatica, improvvisa, imprevedibile, eccetera eccetera che non aveva lasciato il tempo di pensarci troppo, giusto? Alla fine, passa, passa il bombardamento, si esce. Spettacolo, allora sì, incominciamo ad avere una sensazione, così, non più di paura perché ormai non c’era più la paura ma di accoramento perché la strada era ormai tappezzata di macerie. Avanti di noi c’era una casa proprio che era sul limite della Alfa Romeo proprio, di quattro piani con, abitata da molti miei amici e ancora una casa di quelle vecchie, fatte di mattoni, non cemento armato, era letteralmente un cumulo di mattoni, un cumulo di macerie con sotto tutte le persone. [pause] Per fortuna la nostra casa, sì, aveva le persiane abbattute, finestre e i vetri rotti eccetera ma era ancora in piedi, non aveva subito danni, qualche scheggia eccetera perché? Faccio una piccola premessa doverosa. A quei tempi gli Alleati sapevano che, per esempio, l’Alfa Romeo aveva adottato per gli stabilimenti, per esempio di Pomigliano d’Arco a Napoli eccetera, il sistema di costruire i reparti sottoterra, per proteggerli dai bombardamenti. E allora loro, i bombardamenti, adottavano un sistema. Anziché usare bombe dirompenti, usavano bombe perforanti, le quali entravano sottoterra, e esplodevano, non alla quota diciamo zero, ma sottoterra. E così fecero anche per questo bombardamento, no. Questo per noi fu una salvezza perché, salvezza con una concomitanza anche di destino perché ad un certo momento, guardando poi la disposizione delle buche delle bombe di questo bombardamento a tappeto, vedemmo che quella bomba che in teoria, in pratica doveva arrivare su casa nostra, si era spostata di circa una cinquantina di metri, forse di più. Era andata a finire in una delle ortaglie. Andando a finire in una delle ortaglie, aveva perforato il terreno, aveva tirato su terra a non finire al punto che al terzo piano della nostra casa, sopra di noi abitava il padrone di casa, che aveva un terrazzo e con la terra che arrivò sul terrazzo riempì i vasi di fiori, non buttò via la terra, questo per dire. E questa è stata una fortuna, perché praticamente non c’è stato spostamento d’aria. Piccola premessa, piccola anzi parentesi, più che premessa, la vicinanza del convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù gridò, ci portò anche a dire, è stato anche un miracolo perché c’aveva protetto. Benissimo, prendiamo tutto per buono, l’importante che non ci era successo niente. Però, questo è un fatto che, mi dispiace quasi dirlo che, perché è un po’ macabro. Voi dovete pensare che le finestre della mia abitazione guardavano proprio su queste ortaglie, dove c’erano le siepi con quegli operai che stavano lavorando, che stavano giocando a carte eccetera eccetera. Non se ne salvò uno perché quella famosa bomba che è arrivata nell’ortaglia, sì, ha salvato la mia casa ma purtroppo non ha salvato gli operai. Bene, io non so per quanti mesi non mangiai più carne, ecco la storia macabra, perché dalle finestre di casa mia ogni tanto si vedeva il carro funebre del comune che andava a rovistare nell’ortaglia, non so cosa facessero però si vedeva che tiravano su delle cose, le mettevano dentro in sacchi di plastica e poi se ne andavano, basta, vi lascio pensare cosa potevano tirare su, senz’altro non carote e patate. E questo insomma è stato la mia esperienza bellica attribuita alle incursioni aeree. E voi dovete pensare, un particolare che può essere così anche di alleggerimento a questo racconto, in una, una dei crateri delle bombe che, essendo un bombardamento a tappeto, praticamente di bombe ne avevano sganciate un bel po’, era proprio vicino a casa nostra, no, e quando ci sono stati gli Alleati, da noi c’era un insediamento della Croce Rossa e allora c’erano degli italo-americani che si erano fatti amici dei miei genitori, venivano da noi a prendere il caffè, erano dei militari di Boston, mi ricordo ancora, no, bravissime, bravissime persone, no, e ovviamente io su suggerimento loro andavo in una delle buche di queste bombe, allora c’era qualche buca era adibita a raccolta di rifiuti diciamo umidi, e questa buca invece era adibita a rifiuti invece cartacei e lì c’era tutta la corrispondenza, le buste della corrispondenza che ricevevano i militari americani, e io, appassionato di filatelia, andavo a raccogliere dentro nella busta, [laughs] nella buca della bomba, andavo a raccogliere queste buste per togliere i francobolli che sono ancora qua nella mia collezione che quando li vedo mi viene un senso di, così di commozione perché a ottantaquattro anni ci si commuove anche per, guardando dei francobolli. Ecco questo per dirvi, questo bombardamento a tappeto cosa aveva prodotto, nel male 90% e nel bene 10% per i francobolli del Gianni Delfino, che sarei io.
SR: Prima mi parlavi di tuo papà e del suo lavoro in Alfa Romeo. Volevo chiederti.
GD: Sì, ecco sì, mio padre, noi abitavamo proprio vicini alla Alfa Romeo perché era abitudine, abitudine, si cercava chi lavorava in questi stabilimenti di metter su casa vicino per essere comodi, per non avere tanta strada da fare così. E mio padre aveva, ha lavorato la bellezza di quarantun’anni in Alfa Romeo, era un capolinea sulle dentatrici Gleason, di modo che io ho sempre mangiato pane e ingranaggi a casa mia, perché il suo da fare è raccontare, io ero figlio unico, era raccontare, a lui piaceva molto mettere al corrente, metterci al corrente di quello che succedeva sui posti di lavoro, sulle evoluzioni tecniche della costruzione degli ingranaggi eccetera eccetera, che, considerando che erano in Alfa Romeo, erano di altissima qualità perché sappiamo che l’Alfa Romeo allora insomma era una delle prime ditte italiane in fatto di costruzioni di automobili.
ST: E vi parlava anche della vita in fabbrica magari come succedevano, cosa succedeva durante i bombardamenti lì o episodi di resistenza?
GD: No, [unclear], se, ecco, quando avevano sentore di qualche allarme, sulla Via Renato Serra che era una via proprio che tagliava in due praticamente lo stabilimento dell’Alfa Romeo, avevano costruito degli enormi rifugi antiaerei di cemento armato, saran stati, avranno avuto minimo minimo un venti metri di diametro, dentro c’era tutta una, chiamiamo una scala a chiocciola, dove gli operai entravano, e poi man mano, tu, tu, tu, tuck, si sistemavano tutti seduti su questa scala a chiocciola eccetera; questi rifugi erano fatti anche con una punta conica, con una punta d’acciaio, proprio la cuspide in acciaio per fare in modo che se arrivasse, arrivava qualche bomba eccetera, era portata a scivolare via, insomma, non poteva dare l’impatto su questa. E questo è uno delle caratteristiche diciamo che mi ricordo. Poi, tu cosa, cosa mi chiedeva lei, scusi?
ST: Ti chiedevo se appunto lui magari parlava di, come reagivano gli operai durante i bombardamenti.
GD: Ah, niente, no, guardi, ormai c’era un’assuefazione tale che a un certo momento niente, non dico che quando c’era il bombardamento ‘oh che bellezza, così non lavoriamo!’, però insomma non è che si, oddio, gli operai la preoccupazione erano per i familiari a casa perché loro si sentivano superprotetti in questi bunker no, però purtroppo, come abbiamo visto, se ci fosse stato un operaio che aveva dei parenti nella casa di fianco alla mia, eh, vi lascio ben immaginare quale poteva essere stato il suo stato d’animo alla sera quando sarebbe uscito dal suo rifugio e fosse andato a casa sua ecco. Questo non, eh, niente.
ST: E i tuoi genitori parlavano della guerra o del regime, si scambiavano opinioni politiche quando erano in casa, anche davanti a te?
GD: Sì, sì, sì, sì, non è che si, cioè per quanto potessi capire io a dodici anni però a un certo momento qualcosa capivo anche perché posso dire perché tanto non è un segreto, mio padre non era di idee di regime. [background noise] Diciamo, sei possiamo dire all’opposto, abbiamo detto tutto. E a tal riguardo io potrei, mi piacerebbe raccontare un fatto molto, molto significativo, che elude da quello che è i bombardamenti, l’incursione aerea così, però è un fatto umano molto interessante. Il reparto di mio padre era decentrato a Usmate, un paese qui nella periferia di Milano. Mio padre così, forse, così, godeva di grande stima da ambo le parti, dalla direzione che senz’altro politicamente non la pensava come lui, dagli operai che politicamente qualcuno anche pensava come lui, e da, diciamo dei gruppi, diciamo partigiani, ecco, diciamo il termine giusto come deve essere, anche perché mio padre faceva parte della Brigata Garbialdi, parliamo chiaro, Garibaldi prima civile, non armata non, però questo cosa gli faceva fare? Voi pensate, quando era il giorno di paga, mio padre prendeva la bicicletta, mettevano le paghe in una borsa di cuoio normale che veniva messa a cavallo della canna della bicicletta, come si fa quando si mette dentro la merenda, oppure la colazione eccetera, e lui partiva lemme, lemme da Milano, prendeva la Gallaratese, trac andava verso Usmate eccetera eccetera a portare le paghe. Voi dovete pensare che, strada facendo, spesso e volentieri incontrava partigiani, che saltavano fuori un po’ da tutte le parti. Non l’hanno mai fermato una volta. Primo, perché sapevano chi era, poi perché, onestamente, erano partigiani onesti. Perché uso la parola onesti? Perché dobbiamo essere consapevoli che, a quei tempi, l’onestà non è che era una bandiera che tutti sventolavano; l’onestà era un piccolo vessillo privato che ognuno, alle volte cercava quasi di tenere di nascosto, per non farsi vedere troppo onesto. E allora probabilmente lui ha avuto la fortuna di incontrare sempre queste persone che, conoscendolo ed essendo onesti, non l’hanno mai fermato e non gli hanno mai portato via una lira. Lui arrivava sempre sul posto e portava le paghe agli operai di Usmate. Questo è un fatto molto molto importante e significativo perché purtroppo si sentono tanti racconti non belli di persone che approfittavano della loro idea politica e del loro grado, soprattutto idea politica, per fare anche nefandezze. A me piacerebbe, se è consentito, poi casomai sarà l’intervistatrice che taglierà, perché ad un certo momento io in questa intervista avevo fatto una riflessione, ero stato preparato dalla signorina Troglio, perché io, in mezzo a queste cose qui, così tragiche, volevo dire due cose significative, molto molto belle, che io devo cercare di non farmi prendere dalla commozione, intanto che le racconterò. Allora, noi avevamo undici dodici anni. Non è che si patisse la fame però ci si arrangiava come ragazzi a, insomma, a cercare dove, noi per esempio andavamo in queste ortaglie, che dicevo, a prendere, a rubare, a prendere le zucche, poi a fette le portavamo in questa casa di quattro piani, cumulo di macerie che vi ho descritto, c’era un fornaio e noi le portavamo quando il forno era spento però ancora caldo, portavamo le fette di zucca verso le tre, quattro del pomeriggio e poi le andavamo a prendere alle sette, alle otto, perché erano belle cotte e ce le mangiavamo. Ecco, questo per dire un particolare ma questo qui è un particolare ameno. Ma invece quello che ho detto che mi dà commozione ancora è questo. In Viale Certosa c’era tutto il filiare di platani. Ora, a un certo momento il comando tedesco aveva dato ordine di abbattere il platani, probabilmente non era, era per una questione di approvvigionamento di legna da ardere perché chiunque vi insegna che se c’è un filare di alberi e ci sono dei mezzi militari ci tengono a non abbatterli perché essendo nascosti dietro gli alberi gli aerei non li vedono. Perciò sarebbe stato assurdo un bel viale alberato, andare ad abbattere gli alberi quando, però abbiamo capito che era perché anche loro poveretti insoma c’avevano bisogno di legna da ardere. Bene. Particolare bellissimo, bellissimo, cioè noi arriviamo davanti a questo albero, noi siamo in due o tre amici che siamo lì a guardare abbattere l’albero con le borse della spesa in mano. C’è un tedesco con l’ascia che sta abbattendo l’albero. Ovviamente saltano via le schegge di legno, noi ragazzi raccogliavamo le schegge di legno per portarle a casa e accendere la stufa. Questo giovane tedesco, soldato tedesco, me lo ricordo ancora, faceva apposta a far fatica a fare le schegge più grosse per far in modo che noi, anziché le schegge piccole avessimo dei pezzi di legno più grossi da portar via, questa è una cosa che io, mentre la sto dicendo, mi sto commovendo, perché è una cosa che, niente, con questo io non sto difendendo il soldato tedesco tout court. No, per l’amor del cielo, eh, lungi da me, niente, sto riferendo un fatto mio personale che è molto, molto, molto importante. E il secondo fatto, e io ho già detto che nella mia famiglia, avete già capito le idee politiche quali potevano essere, però in quel momento, noi dobbiamo ricordare che negli anni ’40 eccetera, si era tutti infollarmati [sic], si era molto tutti, io ero un figlio della lupa, dico la verità, avevo la mia divisina anch’io, no, eccetera, e io mi ricorderò sempre un altro fatto importantissimo. Di fianco a noi, di fianco a questo convento delle suore c’era anche e c’è ancora un, diciamo, un ricovero eccetera, un’opera, dove erano ricoverati gli orfani, degli orfanelli, erano gli orfani di Padre Beccaro, esiste ancora eccetera. , Benissimo, a un certo momento c’era la scritta sopra, c’era scritto, ‘Opera derelitti di Padre Beccaro’. Derelitti è una parola italiana normale che vuol dire ‘abbandonati’, non è un’offesa, no? Bene. A un certo momento, arriva il Duce, arriva il Duce, tutto il rione in subbuglio, tutte, non tanto gli uomini perché erano al lavoro ma tutte le donne coi figli: ‘Arriva il Duce andiamo a vedere cosa farà questo Duce!’. Io me lo ricordo ancora adesso, come mi ricordo il tedesco là che faceva, io me lo ricordo ancora arrampicato su una scala, mia moglie, mia mamma eccetera, con le lacrime agli occhi insieme ad altri, io no perché io non capivo, perché io avrò avuto sei, sette anni, otto anni, quello che è, e avevano preparato, solo la parola, la parola ‘derelitti’ era stata tutta inbiancata. E lui, me lo ricordo, io chiudo gli occhi, me lo vedo ancora sulla scala, col pennello di vernice nera, che ha scritto ‘piccoli’, ‘Opera piccoli di Padre Beccaro’, ancora adesso se andate a vedere, c’è scritto ‘opera piccoli’ adesso fatta bene ovvio, aveva fatto togliere la parola ‘derelitti’ perché non voleva, ecco. Parliamo chiaro, è propaganda, cioè non sto dicendo che in quel momento lì il Duce si è svegliato una mattina e preso da un rimorso, ‘oh, io devo andare’, no, quello no, propaganda eccetera, però sono quelle cose che, cioè riflettendo adesso, dico ma, pensate un pochettino cosa può fare un regime per riuscire a imbonirsi eccetera, le persone. Oh, lì c’era una massa di donne che piangevano perché vedevano il Duce che stava scrivendo la parola ‘piccoli’ e infatti bisogna dire, è un fatto che non è riprovevole, anche encominabile perché insomma uno che tira via la parola ‘derelitti’ e ci mette ‘piccoli’, insomma tanto di cappello, giusto? Se l’avesse fatto un prete, sarebbe stata la stessa cosa. Ecco questo è il secondo fatto, diciamo così ameno, leggero che volevo mettere insieme al bombardamento.
ST: Ma, volevo chiederti, a scuola, com’era la vita a scuola durante la guerra, se avevano parlato di bombardamenti o vi parlavano della guerra in corso.
GD: No, dunque, allora devi pensare questo, io premesso, io un certo momento, nonostante le idee eccetera però si era presi dentro in un canale, io ero un figlio della lupa, avevo la mia bella divisina, ci tenevo a andare alla Scuola Pietro Micca di Via Gattamelata a fare le mie riunioni eccetera tutto così eccetera e non sono mai diventato Balilla perché siccome sono sfollato di modo ché non ho fatto in tempo. Io la terza, la quarta, la quinta l’ho fatta a Castelleone in quel di Cremona, perciò a un certo momento là per me la guerra non esisteva più, il fascio non esisteva più, cioè, ero ben lontano là, vivevo in mezzo ai campi contadini, per me insomma ormai, per me la vita era con le mucche, i tori, i cavalli eccetera eccetera, no, ecco. E perciò direi che mah, sì, io a un certo momento, più che la guerra in sé stesso, eccetera eccetera, ricordo due o tre fatti, proprio rapidissimi, così, per esempio, i fascisti scappano da Milano, c’erano i giovani della X Mas eccetera, eccetera, che mi ricordo che passavano da Viale Certosa, quel viale dove avevano abbattuto gli alberi e, io dico adesso alla mia età, con una paura addosso, perché chissà che paura avevano, erano, passavano coi camion, e sparavano sulle finestre perché non volevano che la gente si affacciasse a vedere che loro stavano scappando. Questo me lo ricordo perché casa mia, praticamente, Via Petitti è all’inizio era dopo c’era Viale Certosa perciò io da casa mia vedevo le case di Viale Certosa e quando sono passati sentendo il crepitio delle armi mi avevano detto ’Sì, sono i giovincelli del fascio che stanno sparando sulle finestre, perché probabilmente si vergognano per vedere che stavano scappando’. E invece l’altro fatto, l’altro fatto invece increscioso che mi ricordo, mi ricordo quello l’ho visto io,l’ho visto non visto fare ma visto dopo, quando hanno incominciato a fare le epurazioni che in Via Poliziano hanno preso la Ferida e Osvaldo Valenti, che erano i due attori, e a un certo momento li hanno fucilati lì sul marciapiede. Quella è stata una cosa che, ecco, io ricordo più, diciamo mi ha fatto più effetto il dopoguerra che la guerra, perché il dopoguerra per esempio c’era l’ingegner, faccio un nome, l’ingegner Gobbato. L’ingegnier Gobbato è un ingegnere dell’Alfa Romeo, bravissima persona, detto da mio padre, guardi, una cosa eccetera, ma era fascista, perché per forza, là tutti da un certo grado in sù, dai capi in sù dovevano essere per forza iscritti al fascio, perché altrimenti vivevano male, no? E a un certo momento si vede che qualcuno ce l’aveva su, dopo l’epurazione, a un certo momento l’hanno trovato in mezzo alla neve, fuori dell’Alfa Romeo, ammazzato eccetera, no? Ecco lì sono cose che si ricordano, si ricordano molto, molto, molto, molto, per far capire un pochetto cosa vuol dire cosa sono le, come si può dire, le vendette personali. E io posso dire che sotto di noi abitava un fascista. A un certo momento è stato preso e portato a San Vittore. Era una brava persona. Dopo un po’ di giorni è tornato a casa. Questo per dire che non era tanto perché uno avesse l’iscrizione al fascio o non al fascio, tutto dipendeva dall’indole della persona, una persona poteva essere malvagia o persona buona, e persona, e questo sono i vari ricordi. Oddio, questa è un’intervista che è partita con un tema ben preciso e cioè incursioni aeree eccetera eccetera, la RAF minga la RAF eccetera eccetera. Niente, potremmo farla un’altra, io ho aggiunto qualche particolare, potrei aggiungere altri particolari interessanti di vita bellica però su un altro tema, cioè il tema: vita bellica di un ragazzo eccetera eccetera. Si potrà fare un domani eccetera perché ci sono dei.
ST: Se vuoi anche ora.
GD: Degli altri, degli altri, ci sono degli altri avvenimenti importanti, per esempio, uno devo dirlo, devo dirlo perché.
ST: Racconta pure tutto quello che vuoi.
GD: E’ più forte di me. Allora, mio zio, anzi se la qui presente eccetera vuole anche con il telefonino filmare, riprendere un attimino quello che sto dicendo eccetera eccetera, mio zio era carrista sui carri armati M11 e diciamo zona di El Alamein, tanto per intenderci, carri armati M11 erano carri armati. L’M, avevano l’arma in torretta, poi furono trasformati in M13 con l’arma nello scafo, cioè praticamente fissa nello scafo, non nella torretta. Ovviamente con i carri armati inglesi bastava un colpo ben assestato che partiva via tutto, erano degli scatolini e io devo dire che mio zio era carrista, lui era capocarro a parte che a capocarro lì erano dentro in due o tre mi sembra, non è che come adesso sono dentro in cinque sei. E in una battaglia, mi ricorderò sempre, mi disse, stavano andando, a un certo momento colpiti da altri carri, a un certo momento un colpo tremendo, deve immaginare il frastuono tremendo eccetera eccetera tutto, a un certo momento, lui, il cannoniere era sopra di lui, lui era nello scafo, il cannoniere, e lui a un certo momento [screams] a cominciato a gridare, prende la gamba del cannoniere e gli dice, uè te, lo chiama per nome, cosa è successo, e gli è rimasto in mano la gamba. Praticamente il colpo aveva portato via la torretta, il cannoncino e mezzo cannoniere. Questo è stato il trauma di mio, al punto che mio zio è saltato fuori dal carro, si è spogliato, si è messo in mutande, si è messo con le mani alzate, e ha sperato che non ci fosse nessuno che lo colpisse. È stato fatto prigioniero. Ecco, questo non è per vigliaccheria, questo per dire come ci si trova. È stato fatto prigioniero, portato in Africa, bla, bla, bla, bla, tutto eccetera eccetera eccetera, rimpatriato, ehm, parte la nave, siluro, tutti mezzi morti, mio zio fortunamente aveva il mal di mare, era andato in coperta e si era addormentato su un rotolo di corde, giusto, e questo l’ha salvato perché è stato buttato a mare, è stato la bellezza di dodici ore a bagnomaria in acqua e poi è stato salvato dagli inglesi. Portato ancora in campo di concentramento, in Africa così, faceva il cuoco, stava benissimo, eccetera, eccetera. Precedentemente, voi dovete pensare che, per la sete, arrivavano a bere l’acqua dei radiatori del carro armato. Non gliene fregava niente se il carro armato poi si fermava, piuttosto che morire di sete bevevano l’acqua. E infatti mio zio poi dopo reduce a casa così, quando è deceduto, è deceduto anche perché aveva lo stomaco un po’. Ma il fatto invece bellissimo, bellissimo, uguale a uno di quelli che mi ricordo, è: io sono sfollato a Castelleone, ritorna mio zio reduce dalla prigionia, siamo in questo paese, la prima cosa che fece, mi ricordo guardi anche, me lo sento adesso, mi prende, mi porta fuori in campagna, c’era una roggia che si chiamava la Seriola, si chiama la Seriola, è un affluente del fiume Serio che incrocia sopra la Seriola, ci sono dei canali in cemento per portare l’acqua, eh cosa fanno, mica possono, allora facevano i canali, fanno i canali in cemento. E c’era uno di questi canali in cemento con dentro l’acqua corrente che se la Seriola era non so a diciotto gradi, lì l’acqua sarà stata a dodici gradi, forse a dieci. La soddisfazione di questa persona, reduce, arriva a casa, saluta i parenti, la prima cosa che fa, prende il Gianni, che ero io, andiamo in campagna, andiamo alla Seriola, ci spogliamo e in mutande dentro a bagnomaria nella corrente, a sentire quest’acqua fresca, fresca, freddissima, gelata. Io a un certo momento seguivo lo zio, e, cioè vabbè, non è che, mi piaceva, mi piaceva il fatto, non tanto perché io sentivo freddo ma io mi ricordo la soddisfazione di questo uomo a essere al suo paese, vivo, e immerso nell’acqua gelida, bella corrente, che avrà sognato non so per quanti anni, per quanti anni, per quanti anni. Bellissimo, bellissimo, sono dei fatti questi che sono, sono indimenticabili, indimenticabili, indimenticabili. E io torno a dire, la mia memoria ormai è quella che è: non mi ricordo quasi cosa ho mangiato a mezzogiorno, però questi fatti qui sono indelebili nella mia mente e mi fa tanto, tanto, tanto piacere perché io, come tutti i vecchi, chissà quante volte le ho già raccontate a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, magari annoiandoli anche, mi fa piacere che questa volta così ho potuto lasciarli a una persona che magari ne può far tesoro, insieme ad altre testimonianze.
ST: Volevo farti un’ultimissima domanda.
GD: Sì. Dica.
ST: MI parlavi appunto dell’attivitò partigina di tuo papà. Lui in fabbrica era sabotatore quindi? Cosa?
GD: Sì, ah allora, [laughs], a un certo momento, dovete pensare anche questo: quando si parla di sabotaggio, sabotaggio non vuol dire mettere un ordigno esplosivo, far saltar per aria qualcosa eccetera. Sabotaggio c’è anche il sabotaggio intelligente. Il sabotaggio intelligente, che è molto pericoloso perché può essere frainteso come un finto sabotaggio. Cioè, lui essendo un capolinea perciò a un certo momento aveva anche una responsabilità verso gli operai, doveva stare attento anche che gli operai non facessero delle cavolate di loro iniziativa, però loro a un certo momento, se c’era, a un certo momento avevano capito che c’erano dei pezzi che facevano, che non c’entravano niente coi motori Alfa Romeo, erano dei pezzi che venivano fatti poi incellofanati tutti, oliati, eccetera, erano pezzi di V1, venivano mandati in Germania. E mi ricordo perché me ne portò a casa anche qualche dopo la guerra erano rimasti in magazzino, e mi diceva: ‘vedi, questi qui sono pezzi che facevamo per lavoro’, in modo che potete immaginare il controllo dei tedeschi come era, [makes a rhythmic noise], com’era pressante, no, eccetera, in modo che bisognava stare attenti di, se c’era da fare mille pezzi, cercare di farne ottocento, non cento, però ottocento, insomma duecento meno. Per fare questo, le macchine dovevano andare non troppo bene, però non potevano essere manomesse col dire ‘Ah io faccio bruciare il motore elettrico, la macchina non va più!’. No, deve essere sempre il solito bullone semisvitato, il solito dado che manca, il solito filo che si è spelato e ha fatto un po’, e non fa più contatto ma basta riagganciarlo e la macchina riparte, però intanto si perdono le ore, eccetera eccetera, ecco questo era stato fatto, questo mi raccontava che loro sabotaggio ne facevano, però era un sabotaggio, infatti non c’è mai stato in Alfa Romeo una rappresaglia e che erano curati perché, dovete pensare che uno degli azionisti dell’Alfa Romeo era Benito Mussolini, figuriamoci no. Eh, e questo è quello che mi raccontava dei sabotaggi che facevano quando si erano accorti che facevano i pezzi per la V1. E io li ho visti, bellissimi, tutti incartati in carta cellofan, tutto oliato, tutto per bene in scatolette, tutti, sì. Questo, ecco l’unica cosa di sabotaggio che posso dire è questo, altro non saprei. Abbiamo finito? Finito? Alla prossima puntata.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Giovanni Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
Giovanni Delfino was at first evacuated to the Cremona area, where he could see the glow of the distant bombings. He then came back to Milan only to witness a bomb nearly missing his house and killing factory workers. He describes the gruesome sight of undertakers picking up maimed bodies and scattered humans remains: the scene was so shocking that he avoided meat for a while. He recalls wartime episodes: being hurled into a cellar by the blast wave and landing on a pile of sand; stealing pumpkins from a nearby plot and covertly baking them in a ruined house oven; searching for stamps in a bomb crater; the public execution of the actors Osvaldo Valenti and Luisa Ferida; an act of kindness of a German soldier and post-war revenges. He retells his father’s wartime experiences as Resistance runner and Alfa Romeo factory worker: slowing down war-related production; manufacturing V-1 parts destined to Germany, a description of the factory shelter. He mentions his uncle’s wartime experience as tank man, mentioning harsh conditions, a gruesome combat episode in North Africa, surviving torpedoing and being picked up by the Royal Navy.
Creator
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Sara Troglio
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-10-29
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:41:14 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ADelfinoG171029
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Cremona
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Resistance
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/PMuratoriG160314.1.JPG
d025a0e5e087dd2fd35d9177353e109f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/AMuratoriLG161125.1.mp3
7c8e7a4862d309778edec6e027bc9b61
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Muratori, Gino
Gino Muratori
G Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Gino Muratori who recollects his wartime experiences in Rimini.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-14
Identifier
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Muratori, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Daniele Celli: Oggi 14 marzo 2016, parliamo con Muratori Gino, classe 1929. Prima domanda che ti faccio.
Gino Muratori: Nato a Bellariva.
DC: Nato a Bellariva. Prima domanda che ti faccio è questa. Com’era composto il tuo nucleo famigliare quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento di Rimini. Quanti eravate in casa?
GM: Noi in casa eravamo mia nonna, mio nonno.
DC: Nonna materna?
GM: Materna.
DC: Materna.
GM: Nonna.
DC: E si chiama, te lo ricordi il nome, cognome e la classe, se ti viene in mente?
GM: Ostia, mio nonno dunque, è morto nel ’51 a 94 anni.
DC: E aveva 94 anni. Lui si chiamava?
GM: [clears throat] Gaspare.
DC: E di cognome?
GM: Angelini.
DC: Angelini.
GM: Angelini.
DC: Eh, sposato, eh, la sua moglie?
GM: La nonna si chiamava della Rosa che era parente qui dei della Rosa di Bellaviva.
DC: Di Bellaviva.
GM: E si chiamava Angela.
DC: E lei più o meno a che ora [unclear]?
GM: Dunque lei è morta a San Marino nel ’44.
DC: Ah lei è morta per il passaggio del fronte, tua nonna?
GM: Sì, è morta per il passaggio del fronte però di malattia perché lei.
DC: Tifo?
GM: No, lei, è venuto che, lei non ha voluto venir via da Rimini perché mia nonna, il primo bombardamento che ci han fatto, che han fatto a Rimini è morta una figlia sotto i bombardamenti.
DC: Ostia!
GM: Capito, una [clears throat] una figlia e una nipotina, hai capito.
DC: Lei stava di già ancora a San Martino quando c’è stato la guerra?
GM: No, no, no, mia nonna stava qui.
DC: Ah giusto, era nel nucleo con te.
GM: Erano già venuti giù loro da San Martino.
DC: Erano già venuti giù.
GM: Mia nonna dopo è stata tanti anni qui a Bellariva. Mia nonna aveva sette figlie, sette figlie femmine. Una stava a Riccione, una a Viserba e una
DC: No, quello, io voglio sapere quello del tuo nucleo famigliare.
GM: Il mio nucleo, c’era mio babbo che è stato anche in Germania, lui.
DC: Classe, il tuo babbo? Nome e classe.
GM: Mio babbo era del ’93.
DC: Del ’93.
GM: ’93.
DC: E si chiamava il tuo babbo?
GM: Ubaldo.
DC: Ubaldo. Sposato con?
GM: Con mia mamma Eucillia.
DC: Di soprannome, di cognome?
GM: Di cognome Angelini.
DC: Ah, Angelini, giusto. Angelini.
GM: Era una Angelini lei.
DC: E i figli? C’eri te e quanti?
GM: Io, Franco e Luciano.
DC: Franco di che classe era?
GM: Franco è del ’40, ’41 credo.
DC: E Luciano?
GM: Luciano è del ’26. E’ il più grande Luciano.
DC: Luciano è il più grande di tutti.
GM: E’ il più grande di tutti.
DC: Dimmi esattamente dove abitavate.
GM: Noi abitavamo in Via Pesaro
DC: Quindi?
GM: Numero 1, dove c’è la piscina dell’Oceanic.
DC: Sì.
GM: Lì c’era la casa dove eravamo noi.
DC: Via Pesaro 1. E quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento dicevi che la tua nonna
GM: Quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento mia nonna abitava Bellariva e io ero per un pelo che ci sono scappato, ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento, che io avevo un, lavoravo allora a Rimini facevo il meccanico dentista, no?
DC: Ostia!
GM: Pensa te [unclear]
DC: Con chi? Ti ricordi?
GM: Ah, con.
DC: Il dottor?
GM: Con Lazzarotto.
DC: Lazzarotto. E dove aveva il suo ambulatorio?
GM: Aveva l’ambulatorio giù per il corso. Avevo poi Marcello Drudi, lo conosci Marcello Drudi?
DC: Marcello...
GM: Drudi.
DC: Che fa il dentista
GM: Faceva il meccanico dentista.
DC: Sì.
GM: Dopo lui è andato a lavorare con il fratello del Lazzarotto che ha imparato il mestiere lì. E me son de fè fabbri da questo.
DC: [laughs] Le vabbe’ se continui ti lì
GM: [unclear]
DC: Oddio però anche un fabbro insomma.
GM: Sì. Dopo.
DC: Se entrava nel giro buono [unclear] stava bene. Era tutto un altro lavoro.
GM: E’ stato [unclear] Io dopo ho lavorato tanti anni da Fochi però dopo avevo tentato la scalata ma.
DC: [laughs]
GM: L’era sempre che la zente non aveva mai il soldo, paghè, l’era un casen te capì?
DC: Te mi, M’hai detto prima che durante il primo bombardamento, tua nonna ha perso due familiari?
GM: No, mia nonna sì, ha perso una figlia che era sposata, che aveva un albergo in via Cormons.
DC: Come si chiamava tua zia?
GM: [clears throat] Mia zia si chiamava Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: E la bambina si chiamava Anna. Siccome aveva sposato lei un Corbelli, sposata con un Corbelli.
DC: Quanti anni poteva avere quella bambina?
GM: Avrà avuto, [unclear] Dio Bono!
DC: Più o meno.
GM: Avrà avuto cinque anni. Avrà avuto cinque anni.
DC: Quindi loro abitavano in Via Cormons.
GM: Loro avevano la pensione Primavera in Via Cormons. Che è andata giù in pieno con una bomba, hai capito? Erano
DC: Primo bombardamento su quella zona.
GM: Perché lì è stato un trucco. Diciamo che han dato l’allarme e io con l’allarme ero proprio vicino alla Villa Rosa.
DC: Proprio sul, la via del filobus.
GM: La via del filobus.
DC: All’angolo quasi con Piazzale Kennedy.
GM: Dove è venuto giù il ponte dell’Ausa che han colpito. [clears throat] Io ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento perché era il giorno dei santi in [unclear]
DC: Il primo Novembre.
GM: La vedi qua che vedo oggi [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Quando ho rinnovato sto abbonamento e difatti vado là, era chiuso. Allora il filobus non c’era, mi sono incamminato a piedi e lì nel Viale Montegazza c’era una mia cugina che abitava e c’era suo figlio che era un ragazzino più piccolo di me che è andato, era lì vicino il Bar Ceschi, che adesso è i Duchi, peta che è il ristorente Chi Burdlaz.
DC: Sì.
GM: E’ lì che c’è. Lì tiravano, lui aveva una fionda che tirava i [unclear]
DC: [laughs]
GM:E allora abbiamo chiacchierato un po’ così e poi io mi sono incamminato e ho detto: ‘Andrei per trovare mia zia’, hai capito,
DC: Sono qui vicino.
GM: In Via Cormons, no, e appunto là c’è l’allarme adesso quando c’è il cessato allarme appena e difatti c’era un bus fermo vicino la Villa Rosa. Da il cessato allarme e m’incammino per il bus, il bus parte e arrivo a Bellariva.
DC: Fai in tempo di arrivare a Bellariva.
GM: Faccio in tempo a Bellariva che han dato, c’era l’allarme ancora e difatti.
DC: E quindi ha suonato due volte la mattina.
GM: Due volte. Han dato il cessato allarme e nel tragitto da Villa Rosa a Bellariva
DC: Altro allarme
GM: C’è stato un cessato allarme però il, quello che guidava con la sciampugnetta, hai capito,
DC: Certo.
GM: l’altro dritto, e io son venuto a casa. Quando son venuto a Bellariva avevano già sganciato le bombe lì a [unclear]
DC: Lì il rumore del bombardamento non l’hai avvertito.
GM: Io non l’ho sentito, s’è sentito, quando sono sceso si è visto solo sto fumo nero che veniva
DC: Dalla città. Dalla zona marina centro.
GM: Dalla zona marina centro. Ho detto, puttana madonna, l’è bumbardè, ah, ie bumbardè, bumbardè, [unclear] dicevano, no. E così è stato, allora.
DC: Sei tornato a vedere dopo lì?
GM: No, no, no, e dopo è tornato il mio babbo, è tornato a vedere, perché mia nonna fa: ‘Ma Dio bono, [unclear] bombardè la dàs marina centro’.
DC: Andè veder che bordello.
GM: E difatti la pensione è andata giù completo, lei con l’allarme era già, è uscita e poi è [unclear], ha fatto in tempo ad entrare in casa.
DC: Tracchete.
GM: Andè zò da cegerme adoss.
DC: E’ morta altra gente lì? E la pensione, c’era della gente dentro o erano tutti [unclear]?
GM: No, nella pensione c’era, è rimasta sotto solo lei e gli altri figli si sono salvati che c’era, è rimasta una scalinata in quella pensione che andava nella sala e c’erano come dei gradini, si vede che era di cemento e c’era come un tunnel, come un sottoscala.
DC: Si sono infilati lì sotto?
GM: E s’infila lì sotto
DC: [swears]
GM: Tre delle figlie e lì [unclear] hai capito e quello è stato un disastro perché hanno fatto nel primo acchito lì, hanno preso proprio la scia della Villa Rosa che hanno buttato giù il Ponte dell’Ausa e poi hanno colpito lì nella Via Fiume, nella Via Trieste.
DC: Sono arrivati fino laggiù al gasometro.
GM: Sì, il gasometro.
DC: Anzi, con le bombe Via Gambalunga.
GM: Sì, l’hanno compito il gasometro in pieno [unclear], quella volta, sì.
DC: Ho parlato con una signora che stava di casa vicino al gasometro. Ha detto: ‘Noi eravamo andati alla messa dai Paolotti in città. Mentre torniamo’, dice, ‘siamo arrivati davanti al duomo, suona l’allarme, siamo corsi nel palazzo [unclear] che c’era un rifugio antiaereo’.
GM: Sì.
DC: E si sono messi lì sotto. Dice: ‘Abbiamo sentito le vibrazioni del bombardamento’, perchè loro lì erano vicini. Ha detto: ‘Il mio babbo a me e a mio nonno ci ha lasciati da un collega di lavoro’, che era in ferrovia lui.
GM: Sì, sì.
DC: E lui è andato a vedere giù. Dice: ‘Io da quel giorno lì non sono più tornata a casa. Siamo andati da un’altra parte’.
GM: Ah sì sì.
DC: ‘Mia mamma era rimasta a casa a prepararci da mangiare, è rimasta sotto le macerie.’
GM: E dopo il secondo bombardamento.
DC: Il 26 di novembre.
GM: Di novembre, allora poi è successo che, c’era la miseria qui no, allora si cercava di prendere qualche soldo. Da Milano, quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento là nel [unclear].
DC: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati.
GM: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati a Rimini. E allora...
DC: C’era gente anche qui a Bellariva che era venuta sfollata o erano in città, a Marina centro?
GM: Marina centro fino lì Via Pascoli c’erano tutti
DC: Erano tutti concentrati là.
GM: C’erano tutti quegli alberghi, quei due, perchè si contavano con le dita gli alberghi
DC: Sì non
GM: C’era l’Internazionale che era lì vicino, prima di Piazza Tripoli, era prima di Piazza Tripoli che avevano messo su lì una grande, dei grandi uffici di Milano e allora c’erano molti impiegati che lavoravano là. Avevano preso tutto loro l’albergo.
DC: Si era trasferita la ditta praticamente.
GM: Sì. Allora noi cosa abbiamo fatto? Io, Feruzzi e Zamagni andavamo alla fermata del filobus di Marina centro che scendeva la gente perché sull’Ausa non poteva passare la linea. Era interrotta.
DC: Era interrotta, perché c’era il ponte rotto.
GM: E noi con un velocino, andavamo a prendere le valigie.
DC: Facevate il trasbordo.
GM: Facevamo il trasbordo fino a Piazza Tripoli.
DC: E lì facevate [unclear]
GM: E da lì partiva l’altro bus che andava fino a Riccione e allora prendevamo
DC: [unclear]
GM: Dieci centesimi, venti centesimi, capito? [laughs] Un pomeriggio andavamo giù perché uno [unclear] era un [unclear] con delle ruote alte lì. Facevamo da cavallo e due salivano, hai capito? Un po’ per uno. Quando siamo a Piazza Tripoli vediamo le strisce in alto. Dio bono, gli apparecchi! Prendi ‘sta via.
DC: Non aveva suonato l’allarme quella volta?
GM: Non l’abbiamo sentito noi quel giorno lì, non l’abbiam sentito, abbiamo visto sti apparecchi, facevano tutto quel fumo dietro. ‘Gli apparecchi, dio bono, via, via, via!’ Giù in marina.
DC: Venivano dal mare? Te lo ricordi?
GM: No, venivano da monte.
DC: Da monte.
GM: Da monte.
DC: Quindi il secondo eh?
GM: Quel giorno lì, Il secondo bombardamento che noi andavamo verso
DC: Verso Riccione in quel momento
GM: Verso marina centro.
DC: Verso marina centro.
GM: Gli apparecchi, [unclear] zù in marene, la stanga pron e via, lascia [unclear] giù sotto la mura del lungomare.
DC: Del lungomare.
GM: Difatti, dio bono, venivan zù lì, [makes a booming noise] e cadono un sacco di bombe in acqua anche, no?
DC: Addirittura sono arrivati in mare quel giorno?
GM: Le bombe sono cadute anche in mare, allora noi tagliamo sulla spiaggia [unclear] andon zò verso Bellariva per mareina, però lì al direzione dei Angeli Frua, [unclear] l’Hotel Belvedere che è vecchio che è rimasto lì.
[dog barking]
DC: Tutto decrepito, quello che è ancora tutto messo male?
GM: Adesso come una volta.
DC: Sì.
GM: Però funziona ancora, funzionante, hai capito?
[Dog barking. Female voice: sta zitta.]
GM: Lì c’erano, sulla spiaggia c’erano i tedeschi con la contraerea, hai capito?
DC: Contraerea secondo te erano quelli...
GM: Che sparavano agli aerei.
DC: Ma canna o singola o quelle mitragliatrici...
GM: No c’erano le mitragliatrici a quattro canne, quattro canne.
Ui: Quelle da quattro canne, ho capito.
GM: E c’erano i reticolati fino ad un certo punto prima di arrivare nel mare, no, prima di arrivare sulla spiaggia. E allora c’erano i tedeschi [mimics angry screaming] te capì?
DC: Vi facevano andare via?
GM: Ci facevano segno, no? E noi quando hanno fatto segno ha detto: ‘Ma dai, tagliamo verso la ferrovia, andiamo giù per la ferrovia’.
DC: Guai.
GM: Guai.
DC: La ferrovia era
GM: Siamo andati giù in direzione [dog barking] della pensione, aspetta, lì c’è l’Audi, sai dov’è l’Hotel Audi. Vicino
DC: No adesso comunque, comunque dopo si ripiglia.
GM: L’Hotel Plata hai capito che adesso l’hanno chiuso perché era tutto scasinato lì.
DC: Quindi voi da lì avete preso...
GM: Abbiamo preso verso la ferrovia e la direzione, poco in là ci sono le officine.
[dog barking]
DC: Porca miseria, [laughs]
GM: E’ apparsa una formazione [speaks dialect], erano anche bassi, no, lì, bombardamenti [unclear] hanno fatto. Si me e Giorgio e [unclear]
DC: Giorgio chi, quello del distributore?
GM: Giorgio, no, era Giorgio Feruzzi, che adesso è morto lui.
Ui: Non ce l’ho presente.
GM: Quattro, cinque anni fa, dieci anni fa.
DC: Quindi siete andati in
GM: Era un mio collega, era un mio amico
DC: Coetaneo.
GM: Coetaneo, di, della stessa classe eravamo.
DC: Siete andati vicinissimi al ponte.
GM: Siamo andati lì, proprio lì [speaks dialect] finì, Dio bono. Allora dopo è passato sto bombardamento e siamo andati giù direttamente giù per la ferrovia e siamo arrivati a Bellariva, hai capito.
DC: L’antiaerea gli ha sparato a quegli aereoplani, secondo te ?
GM: Sì sì sparavano.
DC: Sparavano.
GM: Sì, sparavano, sì sì. E allora
DC: Erano aerei con quattro motori che c’avete guardato o no, erano alti?
GM: Non erano tanto, si vedevano, non erano quattro motori.
DC: Perché la prima volta mi hai detto che facevano le strisce.
GM: Sì, facevano le strisce.
DC: Perché dopo poi c’è stato un bombardamento anche il giorno dopo, il giorno successivo, grosso anche quello.
GM: Sì.
DC: In Novembre ce ne sono stati tre.
GM: Tre. C’è quell ch’è ste gross.
DC: Il terzo è stato grosso grosso.
GM: Ecco dopo lì, da quel bombardamento lì, sono andato a lavorare alla Todt, alla famosa Todt.
DC: Dov’era la sede della, dov’è che ti sei iscritto?
GM: La sede della Todt, niente come quando, di toi uperaio la Todt allora.
DC: Sì, ma dove sei andato te materialmente a[unclear]?
GM: Alla Maddalena, allora c’era la colonia Maddalena.
Ui: Colonia Maddalena, ah, a Marebello.
GM: Marebello, lì dalle colonie.
DC: Lì era la sede della Todt.
GM: Lì c’era, lì c’era, erano tutti i campi da grano quelli, no. C’era la colonia poi erano tutti i campi da grano, una casina in fondo. Si contavano con le dita le case lì. E c’erano tutti i camion [unclear] perché Maddalena era il centro dove facevano i cassettoni per le, per armare, il cemento armato, hai capito.
DC: I getti di calcestruzzo.
GM: Lì c’erano tutti i falegnami e la manodopera come noi, la mattina ci prendevano, prendevano
DC: Quindi quello era il punto di ritrovo e da lì vi portavano dove.
GM: Quello il punto di ritrovo. Tutte le mattine noi andavamo giù, lì facevano l’appello, hai capito, ti chiamavano, e poi salivi, si saliva sui camion che c’erano tutti autisti della
DC: Camion tedeschi o?
GM: Camion tedeschi.
DC: Tedeschi.
GM: Erano camion tedeschi che erano, gli autisti erano prigionieri
DC: Ucraini.
GM: Ucraini, erano tutti ucraini.
Ui: Polacchi, robe così.
GM: [unclear] Non erano armati nè niente. Avevano una divisa nera così e facevano, e ci portavano là.
DC: Eravate in molti a lavorare lì alla Maddalena?
GM: Eravamo in parecchi. La mattina andavamo giù perché dopo da là c’erano tre, quattro fortini che erano tirati giù dopo la guerra.
DC: Dove?
GM: Per togliere il ferro.
Ui: Dove ’là’?
Gm: Dopo il ponte, sai dov’è il Carlini che fann le barche?
Ui: Sì.
GM: Ecco, là.
DC: Là c’erano quei quattro fortini con i cannoni dentro?
GM: Eh, quelli lì.
DC: Quelli che guardavano il mare?
GM: Noi facevamo quelli.
DC: Quelli, lavoravi in quelli? Ma lo sai che c’ha lavorato anche il mio suocero?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Lui era di Viserba Monte.
GM: [unclear] lì lavoravano parecchi.
DC: Senti cosa mi ha raccontato lui, non so se questo lo puoi, c’era gente che lavorava che veniva anche da fuori. Lui m’ha detto:’Io lavoravo con uno di Bergamo, che aveva un bambino con lui’. Il figlio, perché si vede che non sapeva dove lasciarlo.
GM: Però dopo, la sede, si vede che c’erano dopo altri punti di riferimento per questa organizzazione.
DC: D’incontro. Lui mi sa che faceva dalla corderia.
GM: Ah dalla corderia, ho capito.
DC: Che era un altro coso grosso che usavano i tedeschi.
GM: Noi partivamo da là, dalla Maddalena e quando c’era l’allarme ci portavano a Viserba Monte. Ci caricavano, davano l’allarme, si andava in campagna perché non potevano.
DC: Quanti mesi hai lavorato con loro secondo te?
GM: Due mesi.
DC: Quindi sei arrivato?
Gm: Sì, a Dicembre, così mi sembra.
DC: Perché se hai detto dopo il bombardamento di fine novembre.
GM: Dicembre, gennaio.
DC: C’hai lavorato dicembre e gennaio probabilmente.
GM: Due mesi ho lavorato.
DC: Se, te hai lavorato sempre a quei fortini là a Rivabella.
GM: Sì, noi facevamo la calce praticamente ecco perché dopo tutto il legno venivano giù coi camion tutte ste cose già pronte, queste.
DC: Perché quelli erano grossi, quei fortini lì a Rivabella.
GM: [unclear] Erano grossi, sì, sì, erano grossi.
DC: Ho visto delle fotografie.
GM: Ce n’era uno anche qui.
DC: Hanno messo prima i cannoni dentro e poi gli hanno fatto il calcestruzzo, te ti ricordi?
GM: Quando hanno messo i cannoni io non.
DC: Te non c’eri.
GM: Io non c’ero più.
DC: Quindi prima [unclear]. Li hanno messi dentro dopo.
GM: Sì, dopo, dopo, li hanno messi dentro.
DC: Qui vicino
GM: Qui ce n’era uno più grosso, eh.
DC: Dove? Spiegami un po’, che mi interessa molto.
GM: Qui.
DC: Toh.
GM: Era ne, qui, sai dov’è il gas?
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui, c’è quella stradina che viene che c’è il divieto, lì, la prima strada.
Ui: Guarda, così guarda. Questa, allora questa è la ferrovia. Via Chiabrera.
GM: Chiabrera.
DC: Qui ci sono gli uffici del gas.
Gm: Del gas. Qui c’è
DC: E qui adesso c’è la rotonda.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dimmi un po’ dov’era?
GM: Qui c’ è la prima, la prima strada.
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui. Poi dopo, c’è la prima col semaforo, la seconda col semaforo.
DC: Sì.
Gm: La prima strada qui e il bunker era qui.
Ui: Ed era grosso quanto, secondo te?
Gm: Ah, era grosso.
DC: Una stazza così?
GM: Eh, anche più grande.
DC: Quindi questo era un bunker.
GM: L’hann buttato giù lì proprio quando sono venuto giù io.
DC: Questo è il gas.
GM: Qui
DC: Bunker.
GM: Quando sono venuto giù io dalla parte verso Riccione, l’hanno forato con due cannonate. C’erano proprio i
DC: I buchi.
GM: I buchi delle cannonate.
DC: Ma questo qui secondo te, doveva tenere un cannone o era più?
GM: Ma quello lì penso io che tenessero mitraglitrici credo.
Ui: Qui lungo la ferrovia, allora, [unclear] quello della frutta cinquanta metri più in qua attaccata alla ferrovia, un metro
GM: [unclear]
DC: Sì, c’è un fortino piccolo.
GM: Eh.
DC: Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Sottoterra vai anche lì eh.
DC: Questo qui.
GM: Quello è profondo.
DC: Ha, il, la botola sopra.
GM: Sì, la botola sopra che c’era una mitraglia penso io.
DC: Secondo, o era una riservetta, dico, sì, secondo me lì sopra ci doveva stare la mitraglia.
GM: Lì c’era questa piatta, questa cosa tonda che si vede che c’era una mitragliera
DC: Da fronteggiare.
GM: A quarantacinque gradi, vai a capire, a novanta gradi, e in più c’era una casamatta dentro. Casematte erano tutte quelle tonde di ferro che erano
DC: A cupoletta così.
GM: Erano tonde, tonde, proprio tonde. E avevano una porta di otto, nove centimetri. Che noi, quando io lavoravo da [unclear] dopo la guerra.
DC: Andavate a recuperare la roba.
GM: Abbiamo tagliato ste porte per fare il tasso per raddrizzare il ferro, per battere il ferro
DC: Per lavorare
GM: Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] Quella era roba bona.
GM: Ce n’era una anche vicino il [unclear] dove c’era, dove finiva la mura del De Orchi.
DC: C’era un fortino lato mare?
GM: C’era una casamatta di ferro così.
DC: Allora questa è la De Orchi.
GM: Eh. Di dietro.
DC: De Orchi. Questo qui è il mare.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dov’è che era sto fortino?
GM: Questo è il mare, il fortino è, dunque questo è la De Orchi, qui, qui. Era qui.
DC: Questa era uno di quelli piccolini, cupoletta.
GM: Tutto ferro, tutto ferro.
DC: Ah, solo ferro.
GM: Solo ferro.
DC: Ah , ostia!, interessante. C’è una fotografia nei libri della guerra lì dei [unclear]? Bunker.
GM: Quello è tutto ferro, tondo. C’era
DC: Tutto ferro.
GM: Con porta di spessore da dieci centimetri.
Ui: E qui intorno ce ne erano degli altri che ti ricordi te?
GM: No, qui, qui, qui, e qui [unclear], no.
DC: Sai dove ce n’è uno ancora esistente?
Gm: Eh.
DC: In Via Zavagli. Te sei a monte e vai verso il mare.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Come passi il primo ponte della ferrovia, guardi sulla spallata così della ferrovia, c’è il fortino. A trenta metri dalla Via Zavagli. Ci sono andato dentro, ho preso le misure.
Gm: [unclear] perché io ho visto un altro coso come quello della [unclear]
DC: E’ fatto così a due livelli.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Sopra il tetto ha, stranamente ha la porta verso il mare, che non è, sembra illogico. E’ così guarda. C’ha la porta qui così,
GM: [unclear] verso il mare.
DC: si alza un po’ e qui c’è la feritoia. E’ fatto così, tutto in calcestruzzo. E qui la porta e la feritoia guardano tutti due
Gm: E’ quello che te sei andato qui perché invece
DC: Invece quello è così, è un rettangolo praticamente smussato un po’ indietro così
GM: Sotto si va, si va giù coi gradini sotto da dentro nel recinto dalla casa.
DC: Ah, anche quello c’ha la porta qui.
GM: Quello c’ha la porta.
DC: E il buco qua sopra.
GM: C’ha la porta verso il mare.
DC: Verso il mare.
GM: Sì. Infatti
DC: Guarda, è a un metro dalla linea ferroviaria, dalla rotaia.
Gm: Quella casa lì l’ha presa uno, ma sotto c’ha fatto la cantina.
DC: Sì c’ha fatto la cantina, ma non è tanto grande questo eh.
GM: No.
DC: Questo sarà largo così, è più lungo, è un rettangolo ma non è molto largo. Non so se lo usavano come riserva per le munizioni.
GM: Può darsi, senz’altro. Senz’altro.
DC: Tuo babbo che lavoro faceva in quel periodo?
GM: Mio babbo lavorava all’aeroporto allora al tempo di guerra.
DC: Cosa faceva?
GM: Dava benzina agli aerei così, hai capito?
DC: Ostia! Ma va!
GM: Eh sì, perché, dopo lui è stato in Germania.
DC: Coso qui, Antimi
Gm: Antimi, il falegname?
Ui: No, Antimi, adess l’è mort pure et ma lui durante la guerra era sotto naja, era in marina. Antimi, aspetta eh, sta, stava di casa, hai presente la rotonda qui dell’ospedale?
GM: Eh.
DC: Vai verso Riccione. Una, prima di arrivare in Via Rimembranza, lui sta in una di quelle casette lì. In Via Fasola.
GM: Fasola?
DC: Sta, lui di casa durante la guerra.
GM: Ah, ho capito.
Ui: Era di quella famiglia che stavano lì di fronte alla Coca-Cola. Un pochettino più verso Rimini.
GM: Sì [unclear]
DC: E lui lavorava dentro l’aeroporto e, se ricordo bene m’aveva detto, che era assieme, cosa che c’era, c’è un meridionale qui a Bellariva che anche lui era, lavorava dentro l’aeroporto.
GM: In tempo di guerra?
Ui: Sì, non so se faceva il calzolaio.
GM: Ah, può darsi.
DC: Come cus ciema, è famoso qui a Bellariva, sicuramente te lo conosci ma adesso mi sfugge il nome, e lo stesso. E lui quindi metteva benzina negli aeroplani, faceva questi servizi così. Porcaccia loca!
GM: [unclear] dopo, sì, mio babbo nel prima ha lavorato anche con il comune di Rimini, però lavorava d’estate, sai il lavoro era quello lì in tempo prima della, in tempo di guerra o prima della guerra, [unclear] ogni tent, si muradure.
DC: Dove capitava.
Gm: Dop l’è andè in Germania, è stato due tre anni là.
DC: Faceva le stagioni o stava fisso?
GM: No, no, lui, lui lavorava in una fabbrica di, dove facevano i sommergibili.
DC: Ostrica! Ti ricordi in che città era?
GM: Era witt, eh Wittenberg.
DC: Tre anni filati è stato là?
GM: No, veniva a casa in licenza.
DC: Faceva le licenze. Porco boia!
GM: Lui e mio zio, tutti e due.
DC: Perché qua mancava il lavoro.
GM: Eh, qua mancava il lavoro, dopo ha fatto sta cosa. Il primo anno l’ha fatto a Villach, in Austria.
DC: E li che cosa, fabbrica di che cosa?
GM: Lì campagna.
DC: E mio suocero l’è andè in Polonia a piantar patè di un anno.
GM: Anche lì fè in campagne dopo l’è [speaks dialect] il secondo turno l’ha fatto là in Germania.
DC: Perché pagavano più di qui.
GM: Ostia, pagavano [unclear] poi.
DC: Però mi ha detto mio suocero l’era un freddo
GM:Ah, l’era dura no però
DC: E’ arrivato là in maggio c’era ancora la neve dov’era lui.
GM: [unclear] Noi, io avevo tre fratelli, erano tutti e tre in Germania erano. Uno è rimasto anche fino la, il passaggio dei russi diciamo. [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs] Dio poi!
GM: Hai capito? E invece gli altri due e mio babbo e mio zio, ce l’hann fatta a venire a casa [unclear]
DC: Dio poi! [laughs]
GM: Con una licenza e poi nel [speaks dialect]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: Sta bombardè forti là.
DC: Porcamiseria. La Germania dove c’erano le fabbriche l’hann rasa praticamente al suolo.
GM: L’hann raso al suolo.
DC: Il terzo bombardamento di Rimini, anzi forse è stato il secondo. Dei caccia di scorta hanno sganciato i [unclear] nella zona del Ghetto Turco.
GM: Sì, i serbatoi.
DC: I serbatoi.
GM: I serbatoi, sì sì.
DC: Ti ricordi di averlo visto te sta cosa?
GM: Sì sì. Che venivano giù sta cosa, puttana [unclear].
DC: Una signora. La Gattei [?], [unclear] la mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
DC: [unclear], La mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
Ui: Il coso, il vecchio bagnino di Bellariva.
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Lei mi ha detto: ‘io stavo là vicino al Ghetto Turco [unclear] abbiamo visto venire giù sti robi strani [unclear] ah, Dio poi! Ma venivano giù piano, che di solito le bombe, quando prendevano velocità, non le vedevi più no. E questa si continuava a vedere [unclear] sai che sarà, corri di qua, corri d’là, arrivano per terra, non succede niente. Allora tutti avevano paura, disi, scoppierà per terr. Allora dice che c’era un carabiniere là c’la dett: ‘[speaks in dialect] che vado a veder io. Tanto ormai sono vecchio, anche se muoio io’. Quand’è arrivato là ha capito che erano serbatoi di benzina. Dopo [unclear] che qualcosa hanno rimediato ma c’era rimasto poca roba.
DC: Quindi anche te li hai visti scendere?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Si capivano che erano caccia su in alto?
GM: [unclear] quando c’era la, la formazione degli aerei, quella era per il terzo bombardamento adesso [unclear] perché [unclear].
DC: Cert. [laughs]
GM: Mi ricordo che ero, ero lì dove c’è il semaforo adesso, no, la Via Rimembranza era tutta campagna. [speaks dialect] mi fa:’dio bono’, difatti venivano da Riccione e andavano verso Rimini. C’era la caserma Giulio Cesare, che c’erano ancora i soldati lì. H a dit, Puttana madonna guarda quanti aerei. E difatti si è visto proprio, io mi sono messo nel fosso, sembrava che queste bombe cadessero proprio sopra di noi.
DC: Dio poi!
GM: Puttana Madonna! [speaks dialect] Invece, hai capito, [unclear] vicino la mura della caserma, hai capito. Ah la Madonna! Era un bel disastro.
DC: Robe che non si dimenticano eh.
GM: Eh, non si dimenticano.
DC: [unclear]
GM: Ti faccio vedere un libro che ha scritto mio, un figlio di una mia cugina.
DC: Su questo argomento qui?
GM: Che racconta anche lui [unclear]
DC: Va la!
GM: Di questa. Tutti, ci sono tutti racconti, non so se tu l’hai visto quel libro lì.
DC: Come s’intitola?
GM: A m’arcord.
DC: Prova a far vedere, che mi interessa moltissimo. Che ci sia anche in biblioteca, l’avrà depositato.
GM: Non credo.
DC: Signora, voi di solito a che ora cenate, che non vorrei.
FS: Ma no no no, tardi.
DC: Tardi.
FS: Tardi, eh.
DC: [laughs]
FS: No no, non si preoccupi.
GM: Aspetta, ‘la città invisibile’.
DC: Ce l’ho.
GM: Ce l’hai?
DC: Ce l’ho. La scritto chi, tuo cugino? Tuo parente?
GM: No, c’è un racconto che è di un mio parente.
DC: Coso?
GM: Rodolfo si chiama.
DC: Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi.
DC: Te sei parente con Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi è il figlio di una mia cugina buona.
DC: Lo sai che io da un racconto [unclear] qui?
GM: [speaks dialect] Sarà zinquanta, sessanta anni.
Ui: Fa vedere la fotografia di Francesconi che di faccia non me lo ricordo.
GM: [unclear] vieni a pagina qua.
DC: Questo è bellissimo, sto libro qui. Il racconto di Rodolfo. Fa veder. Perché qui c’è un racconto anche di un altro di Bellariva.
GM: Germano Melucci.
DC: [unclear] sull’elenco non c’è.
GM: Stai qui, stai qui.
DC: Non l’ho trovato sul elenco telefonico.
GM: Te dè me il numero.
DC: Dio bonamma! Rodolfo, fa veder la foto.
GM: Questo è tutta, tutta storia, tutta la parentela anche il mia, la mi zia, che era su nona, hai capito? Dopo c’era mio cugino.
DC: Questo è ingegnere? No.
GM: No, lui no, lui è chimico credo.
DC: Ingegnere chimico. Sta a Riccione?
GM: Sì.
DC: Lo sai che io c’ho parlato con lui?
GM: Sì?
DC: E mi ha prestato il suo diario da fotocopiare?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: [laughs] Perché gli sono andato a chiedere se aveva voglia di raccontarmi. Lui mi fa, mi ha guardato, fa:’ma perché fa sta cosa?’ Dico: ‘Guardi, io sono un appassionato, io ho letto un libro che c’è’. E mi fa:’sa che sto diario l’ho dato alla biblioteca di Cattolica’ che dovevano fare qualcosa, tipo una pubblicazione così. Ma lo vuole leggere? Dico:’magari, se vuole, ma si fida?’ dico perché io lui non l’avevo mai visto, c’eravamo incontrati così per le mie ricerche.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Me l’ha dato, mi ha prestato il diario, me lo sono, lui qui ha fatto la cronistoria di tutti gli aerei che ha visto cadere.
GM: Sì sì. [unclear] tutto.
DC: Ha fatto una roba fuori di testa. Ma ha visto un sacco di roba questo qui eh. Poi si erano spostati là nella colonia a Misano.
GM: Sì perché la colonia lì, perché mia zia.
DC: Ma pensa te, è tuo parente [laughs]
GM: Aveva sposato un Amati, no. I famosi Amati di Riccione.
DC: Di Riccione.
GM: Anche parente c’è qualche [unclear] eccetera e praticamente il marito di mia zia era uno che stava bene, era uno che, una persona, un grande pescatore.
DC: Stava a Mirano mi sembra lui, Francesconi?
GM: Mirano, lui è stato
DC: C’ha lavorato?
GM: Francesconi era il babbo di Rodolfo, hai capito, che era un gerarca fascista. E’ stato in Libia, cred che sia mort, na, na, dop la guerra l’è torni. [speaks dialect] direttor l’Alitalia un per. Hai capito?
DC: Com’era, uno di quelli che
GM: Dopo mia cugina si era disunita da lui come
DC: Quest na, è Germano?
GM: Questo è Germano.
DC: Dio bonamma, l’ho cercato che gli volevo parlare.
GM: [unclear] sta zitta. Questo è un altro libro di chiesa, però racconta anche un po’ questo di bombardamenti. Questo è “una spiaggia, una chiesa e una comunità”.
DC: E chi l’ha, ah, Manlio Masini. Bravo che lui scrive
GM: Questo è ’43. Dal ’12 al ’43.
DC: E parla del [unclear], anche qui della guerra?
GM: Questo parla un po’ della guerra anche.
DC: Sei amico te con lui, lo conosci?
GM: Masini? No, questo qui me l’ha dato un mio amico che era un professore; Marcello [unclear] perché el cognom [speaks dialect]. Era, siccome faceva, d’estate faceva il, il, parlava bene l’inglese e il francese, faceva, lavorava per, con l’areoporto per le agenzie, ora ho fatto anche il tassista, te capì? Per sto [unclear]
DC: Per un certo periodo.
GM: E allora hai capito, beh comunque, c’è la storia di qualche bombardamento perché c’è anche Marvelli, che ha lavorato anche lui nella Todt.
DC: Ah, lui era ingegnere.
GM: Lui era ingegnere.
DC: Era lì alla cosa, alla Maddalena, come sede, lui? [unclear] in giro?
GM: Ma io non, io non me lo ricordo. Io ho letto qui che lui ha lavorato nella Todt.
DC: Sì ma l’hanno detto che lui era.
GM: Hai capito, ho letto qui che c’è un racconto.
DC: Forse lui magari era in una delle altre sedi.
GM: Lui era ingegnere, hai capito, dopo parlava bene il tedesco lui perché la mamma era tedesca di lui.
DC: Ah, non lo sapevo questo.
GM: Hai capito.
DC: Fammi vedere il titolo che me lo scrivo. Allora, Manlio Masini, una spiaggia, una chiesa, una comunità. Fammi una cortesia.
GM: Dimmi.
DC: C’hai il numero di Germano, hai detto?
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Dammelo subito che così non mi dimentico che dopo, dopo di te, becco anche lui [laughs]. Che belle foto che ci sono.
GM: Qui ci sono anch’io in una processione.
DC: Ah sì? Te frequentavi la, il coso dei Salesiani?
GM: Io nel, nel ’38, quando ho passato la cresima, tutti [unclear] lì perché la chiesa era a Piazza Tripoli, noi qui non avevamo la parrocchia, hai capito?
DC: Non facevate con la Colonnella?
GM: No, la Colonnella era dalla parte di là. La Via Rimembranze era, una parte della ferrovia in là era Colonnella e fino, sulla destra era Colonnella e sulla sinistra era Piazza Tripoli. Comunque
DC: Ah, quindi te eri collegato là.
GM: Io ero collegato con la chiesa di [unclear], quindi Germano, Germano, Germano, Germano, 380424.
DC: E abita anche lui in questa via qui?
GM: Lui abita dirimpetto [unclear] c’è pure il tabaccaio che fa angolo qui.
DC: Sì.
GM: C’è un tabaccaio no. La stradina lì, la seconda casa, c’è un cancello con l’automatico.
DC: Con l’automatico. Ah, dio bo, lo chiamo eccome. Lo sai che l’ho cercato anche sotto Riccione, [unclear] siccome quelli lì sono quasi tutti di Riccione, dico, si vede che sta a Riccione [unclear]
GM: [unclear] Ha il distributore a Riccione.
DC: Ah.
GM: Allora uno c’ha regalato il libro, lui, me l’ha dato lui sto libro.
DC: E’ bellissimo.
GM: E allora dopo [unclear] ho letto tanti
DC: Questa storia qui.
GM: Eh.
DC: Il racconto di Dino, questo.
GM: Sì?
DC: Che era il fabbro di Spontricciolo.
GM: Spontricciolo.
DC: Lui, assieme ad altri due, ha tenuto nascosto un americano per tre mesi, un aviatore che si era buttato il 5 giugno del ’44 nella zona di Ospedaletto. Erano in dieci, sei li hanno catturati subito, quattro
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: Era, ma adesso arriviamo anche lì,
GM: Quando zè rivà, in che periodo che è caduto l’aereo?
DC: Cinque giugno ’44.
GM: Difatti, quando il fronte è passato in
DC: In settembre.
GM: In settembre
DC: Qui hanno combattuto a [unclear] dai primi di settembre.
GM: Era una fortezza volante.
DC: Era una fortezza volante.
GM: L’è cascè [speaks dialect] perché una volta c’era una fortezza volante, noi da porta san marino
DC: Vedevate tutto.
GM: Prendevamo una galleria che aveva tutto lo sbocco e abbiamo visto tutta la battaglia dei carri armati, si vedeva tutto, hai capito? E poi, era uno che aveva un binocolo buonissimo [unclear]
DC: La galleria quale, quella del Borgo Maggiore?
GM: No, era l’altra.
DC: [unclear] al convento dei frati?
GM: No. Dunque partiva, dal Borgo Maggiore partiva, dunque, petta,
Ui: Ce n’era una che faceva tutto il giro del monte
GM: No, Il nostro giro, la nostra galleria, quando tu venivi giù dalla città,
DC: Sì.
GM: Da San Marino, per andare già nel borgo, prima di prendere la penultima curva che [unclear] il borgo
DC: Che fa tutto il giro
GM: Sotto quel, quel coso lì c’è l’entrata di questa galleria
DC: Che fa tutto il giro del monte
GM: Che va, va a finire
DC: Al convento di Valdragone. Mi sembra, no?
GM: No, no, no, no, quello va a finire a Santa Mustiola. E prende un’altra galleria ancora che va nel borgo dopo.
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Ce n’erano due, hai capito, uno attacca l’altra.
DC: Quindi voi eravate dalla parte che guarda verso il mare.
GM: Noi guardavamo, sì, noi guardavamo verso il mare perché eravamo, quando uscivamo dalla galleria c’era uno spiazzale lì. Vedevamo il mare, Serravalle, e vedevamo, e se andavi su poi dopo vedevi anche Riccione eh cioè, però dovevi andare sulla strada, hai capito.
DC: Sì.
GM: Perché c’era la strada lì. Era una galleria che era ottocento metri credo, faceva un ferro da cavallo faceva
DC: Sì, girava intorno al monte,
GM: Sì.
DC: Praticamente.
GM: E vedevamo tutto Verucchio, tutto il Montebello, tutte le cose lì, tutti i compartimenti.
DC: Era una zona praticamente.
GM: Dalla galleria vedevi proprio i ultimi tedeschi scappava via
DC: E parlami di quel [unclear], di quella fortezza volante.
GM: Di quella fortezza volante, allora, è successo che sta fortezza volante andavano verso
DC: Verso sud.
GM: Verso sud.
DC: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento.
GM: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento. E questa che è qui ha preso verso la campagna qua, verso Cerasolo, su, su, e andava verso l’Arno. E poi tutta una volta si sono buttati via sti [unclear]
DC: Paracaduti.
GM: L’apparech andava verso Cattolica così, hai capito, [speaks dialect] quel casca.
DC: C’erano due caccia che lo attaccavano sta fortezza volante o era da sola?
GM: No, era da sola la
Ui: Allora è quello lì. Hai visto quello lì.
GM: Era da sola.
DC: Perché un mese prima ce n’era stato un altro sempre [unclear]
GM: Per me quella lì è stata colpita dalla contraerea.
DC: E’ esatto.
GM: E’ stata.
DC: A Bologna.
GM: Eh, difatti.
DC: Era andata a bombardare a Bologna.
GM: [speaks dialect] questo [speaks dialect] si vede che c’era qualcosa che non andava.
DC: I colleghi di, gli altri aeroplani che erano più avanti,
GM: Sì.
DC: Perché lui era rimasto attardato,
GM: Sì.
DC: Che non gli andavano i motori.
GM: Difatti [unclear] questo era lì per [unclear].
DC: Hanno scritto che era esploso in volo l’aereo. Te ti, quando è andato sul mare, secondo te, è andato giù nell’acqua o l’è sciupè?
GM: Io non ho visto [unclear] perché io [unclear] orca madonna butta zò [unclear] dopo hann detto che poi un po’ li hanno presi.
DC: Sei li hanno presi. Tre sono finiti a Monte Grimano e sono stati nascosti da un signore, con cui ho parlato, che li ha tenuti in casa
GM: [unclear]
DC: E il quarto era quello che ha aiutato lui.
GM: Ha avuto un bel coraggio.
DC: Quelli si sono incamminati, sono riusciti ad arrivare all’interno. Dopo hanno trovato dei partigiani che li hanno portati a Monte Grimano, in sta famiglia che stavano in una casa isolata. E lì sono stati circa due mesi. Poi dopo è arrivato il fronte e sono riusciti a consegnarsi. Lui invece che era rimasto aiutato da uno lì che era nella zona, questo, Dolci
GM: Sì, sì, sì.
DC: Questo, il Dolci di soprannome, era sfollato a Mulazzano.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Dice, sono andato giù, per vedere dove erano atterrati sti aviatori. Dice, l’er ved un camion fascisti e tedeschi, ia ciap su, erano nel grano, dice, hann tirato, c’hanno mitragliato sopra in alto no questi col fazzoletto bianco così si sono arresi, dice, li ha ciap, ha detto, torno su a Mulazzano. Arrivo a Mulazzano e trovo un signore con la bicicletta che mi fa: ‘te’, siccome lui dava in giro i giornali proibiti, L’Unità così, faceva propaganda no, non era un partisen però si dava da fare e dai, lui era giovane.
GM: [speaks dialects]
DC: [speaks dialect] [laughs] Allora mi dice: ‘mi avvicina un signore con la bicicletta ha detto: ‘te che sei un partigiano, hai presente il Ristorante Vannucci a Mulazzano?
GM: Sì.
DC: Dietro il ristorante Vannucci, giù nella scarpata c’era questo aviatore, che qui c’è anche la fotografia, che si era slogato una caviglia e non riusciva a camminare. Diceva: ‘anda zì e aiutè perché quello non ries a moversi’ e da lì è nata la storia. E lui e gli altri, e un altro me l’ha raccontata tutta, ha fatto un libretto che ho depositato in biblioteca.
GM: Qui c’erano partigiani uno che faceva il tassista con me, lui è, per dire, che poi va detto, si chiamava Amati, Amati Gino, se tu guardi anche sul computer c’è Amati Gino
DC: A Rimini?
GM: Rimini sì. Era assieme con i tre che hanno impiccato lui eh. Quelli che sono scappati, è scappato via [unclear]
DC: Che è riuscito a
Gm: Scappar via a bruciapelo. La storia di lui.
DC: Lui è ancora vivo?
GM: No, è morto
DC: Vacca boia!
GM: E’ morto due, tre anni fa. E [unclear] dimmi Gino, insomma quante semo partigiani? [speaks dialect] durant la guerr eran tut partigien. [speaks dialect] In partigien sem sette o otto.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Quei poveracci che hanno ammazzato che poi delle grandi azioni non le hanno fatte.
DC: Grandi azioni qui a Rimini non le hanno fatte. Tagliavano i fili del telefono, mettevano i chiodi
GM: Bolini con la mazzetta, [unclear] fucilè fradè per sbai.
DC: Chi Bolini?
GM: Quelli di Bolini che
DC: Ciavatta.
GM: Ciavatta. Però
DC: [unclear]
GM: Era imparentato coi Bolini
Gm: Ciavatta er, erano quattro o cinque fratelli, no, la sai la storia
DC: Te li conoscevi, sì, me l’hanno raccontata.
GM: Io ho preso la pensione da loro quando
DC: Quando hai cominciato
GM: Quando hanno incominciato a fare la pensione a Marebello.
DC: Ah, Marebello avevano loro?
GM: Avevano la Pensione Emma lì no, che c’è ancora. Era dei Ciavatti quella lì.
GM: Che dopo poi loro ne hanno fatto un’altra là a Rivazzurra. E quella lì l’han venduta e noi l’abbiamo preso da lui in affitto quando
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Dopo l’ha presa una certa Giunchi e allora lì mi ricordo che ancora c’era ancora la mamma che era ancora [unclear]
DC: Poi con la storia che il fratello non si era consegnato [unclear]
GM: [unclear]
DC: E non tocchiamo questo discorso che qui siamo sul personale, dopo.
GM: E allora voglio dire che c’entravano [unclear] i partigiani, a volte [unclear] ah ma sei partigiano, ma che partigiano [unclear]. La battaglia [unclear].
DC: Durante il terzo bombardamento di Rimini i caccia tedeschi, te non so se te ne sei accorto,
GM: Caccia tedeschi.
DC: Caccia tedeschi hanno attaccato la formazione e hanno abbattuto due bombardieri, due fortezze volanti che sono andate a cadere, una a Città di Castello e una a Campo, che è verso
GM: Quello, quando è stato quel bombardamento lì?
DC: Quello è stato il 27 Novembre del ’43. Poi dopo ci sono stati quelli grossi
GM: Infatti, però hanno buttato giù anche un caccia tedesco che c’era un, c’erano i caccia della
DC: Della Repubblica Sociale.
GM: Della Repubblica Sociale.
DC: Quel giorno secondo te, è caduto?
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: E dove sarebbe caduto questo aereo lì?
GM: Sarebbe caduto là verso San Marino credo, sia caduto là a Fiorentino, penso io.
DC: Dietro San Marino, due aerei della Repubblica Sociale sono caduti, abbattuti per sbaglio dai tedeschi. Pensa te. Uno è caduto verso Montecopiolo e uno una decina di chilometri più in là. Questi italiani della Repubblica Sociale Italiana stavano inseguendo,
FS: Oh ciao!
DC: Ciao, salve, non salve, ciao [laughs], te, scusami, sai. C’hai il babbo che, è uno classe 1929 che può raccontare un sacco di robe e non m’hai mai detto niente?
SFS: Eh, certo, come no.
DC: Eh no, no. [laughs]
FS: Ne abbiam parlato, ne abbiam parlato.
DC: Come stai?
FS: Bene, te?
DC: Non c’è male.
FS: Come va il tuo libro?
DC: Eh io due, ho depositato due libri in biblioteca.
FS: Ah sì?
DC: Sì.
FS: Dai, ma due.
DC: Raccogliendo le robine così ma robine così da bastare eh
FS: Vabbè, ma sei un appassionato infatti la Patrizia è mia amica la Patrizia, quella bionda bionda della biblioteca
DC: Ah sì, la [unclear]
FS: La [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
FS: Mi dice sempre perché una volta così abbiamo parlato. Mi fa, ma dai ma [unclear] parlare di storia perché anche lei è laureata in, proprio in storia moderna, hai capito, la sua specializzazione. E allora faceva: ‘Ma dai non lo conosci, non, coso, Celli, no, ti ricordi, ‘come non lo conosco’, ha detto, è anche venuto a casa mia per, che facevi l’albero.
DC: Sì che facevo le ricerche
FS: Le ricerche. E infatti allora insomma.
DC: Allora mi faccio raccontare anche dal tuo babbo quello che ha passato lui. Dio bon, c’ha una memoria della Madonna, il tuo babbo.
GM: [unclear]
FS: Il mio babbo, ha su quelle cose lì il mio babbo, mio zio Luciano di là, dio bon, chi li ferma più. Infatti fai bene, stai facendo un [unclear]
DC: Io adesso raccolgo, dopo vedrò.
FS: Vedrai.
DC: Adesso intanto cerco di raccogliere.
FS: Ah bene bene bene. Poi dopo fa. Adesso qua che li verrai a vedere, eh, quei depositi là?
DC: [unclear]
FS: Devi chiedere alla Patrizia.
DC: Fammi vedere i libri di Celli. Ma ti dico, io non sono bravo a scrivere, quindi, è giusto per non perdere la memoria di quello che mi racconta.
FS: Eh, hai fatto bene. Le hai praticamente solo depositato come documento.
DC: Come documento.
FS: Come documento che se uno vuole reperire delle cose, no? Un ambientazione.
DC: Se uno vuole fare una ricerca sul passato bellico di Rimini, lì ci sono delle notizie.
FS: Come no, come no.
DC: E uno, che dicevo adesso al tuo babbo, è nato da una storia che ho letto su sto libro qui. Qui c’è uno che ha aiutato un americano
FS: E chi è, perché adesso non ho gli occhiali, città?
DC: ‘La città invisibile’.
FS: ‘invisibile’. L’ho sentita dire. E chi è l’autore?
DC: Fabio Galli, Glauco Galli.
GM: Glauco Galli.
FS: Glauco Galli.
DC: Deve essere uno che [unclear] dalla politica e adesso penso che abbia una carica a livello di provincia o di regione.
GM: Ah sì?
FS: Può essere.
DC: Deve essere un politico lui.
FS: Ma guarda. Bene allora quando mi capita, io vedo sempre, al sabato sono andata a trovare la Patrizia, adesso me li faccio vedere quei libri.
DC: Uno non te lo daranno sicuro perché è in unica copia ma il secondo che ho fatto su quella storia lì, è in duplice copia, quindi uno può uscire. Poi se lo vuoi, se mi dai l’indirizzo di posta elettronica, ti mando il pdf, te lo leggi così.
FS: Ah, beh dai, scrivilo. Daniela, no aspetta, danimurat
DC: Danimurat
FS: Danimurat, con una t, @alice.it. Ecco, a posto.
DC: Ti mando le ultime due che ho fatto.
FS: Grazie.
DC: Anzi, sono tre depositate in biblioteca. Uno che stava lì [unclear] Pino Burdon, adesso sta qui in Via Carlo Porta [unclear]. Lavorava da Ciavatta, quelli che facevano le reti dei letti.
GM: Burdon. Pino.
DC: Fabbri, la, sua moglie qui in Via Carlo Porta doveva avere un negozietto di mercerie mi sembra, c’hai presente?
GM: Burdon. Stavano in Via Pesaro una volta.
DC: Ma forse quello sarà un altro parente, qualcosa di collegato, mi aveva raccontato una storia durante ste ricerche che mi aveva incuriosito tantissimo ma non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui aveva visto passare sul mare un aereo tedesco con sei motori, bassissimo, perché c’erano le nuvole che erano
GM: Allora avevano i sei motori?
DC: Avevano[unclear] aerei da trasporto di quella stazza lì.
GM: Sì ne avevano.
DC: E’ andato a sbattere contro il coso di Gabicce.
FS: Davvero, la cosa, il monte lì?
DC: Sì, ho sentito con dei ricercatori storici di areonautica, non lo sapeva nessuno di sta storia qua. E allora, cerca, cerca, cerca, ho trovato uno di Gabicce che lui personalmente non se lo ricordava, però c’era un suo vicino di casa che gli aveva raccontato sta storia. Ci siamo messi in contatto, siamo andati a fare un sopralluogo, mi ha fatto vedere dove era caduto, ho chiamato i miei amici di Bagnacavallo col metal detector, sono venuti, abbiamo trovato i pezzi, e c’era un testimone oculare che ci ha detto dov’era caduto quindi sapevamo che era lì e poi dopo guardando su internet, al cimitero tedesco della Futa, tra Bologna e Firenze, c’era, c’erano nove militari morti il 16 dicembre del ’42 e ho trovato il riscontro di quei nove lì, registrati nel cimitero di Pesaro perché un mio amico delle Marche, che ho contattato attraverso internet, chiedendogli se sapeva di sta storia, perché non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui me l’aveva raccontato, questo qui di Bellariva e non c’era, non riuscivo a trovare né una data
FS: Certo, non riuscivi a trovare riferimenti.
DC: Riferimenti per approfondire la ricerca.
FS: Eh certo.
DC: Allora, un mio amico bravo, uno di quelli con il metal detector, che si sa spatacare bene con internet, ha trovato sti nove caduti cinquanta chilometri a sud di Rimini. Cinquanta chilometri serìa Fano però Gabicce, poi con quell’aereo lì ne è caduto uno solo qui intorno. E dopo ho sentito anche quelli del cimitero.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Andavano giù in Sicilia.
FS: Ma no, me l’aveva raccontato coso a me, [unclear] una volta
DC: Mulazzani?
FS: Mulazzani perché io una volta
DC: Di sto aereo con sei motori?
FS: No, che passavano questi aerei. Che lui si ricordava
DC: Andavano giù. Seguivano il mare, la costa.
FS: Ma aveva parlato anche di una rotta. Adesso a m’arcord perché avevo scritto per la Granzela no, il giornalino facevo perché intervistavo [unclear] anch’io dei personaggi ma giusto a livello di narrativa, non di storia. Però naturalmente quando che ne so, magari intervistavo Mulazzani o mio zio, erano tutte cose legate alla guerra perché per loro era un ricordo vivo.
DC: Era qualcosa che, ecco, esatto.
FS: Quindi mi raccontava di questo, di questi aerei
DC: E insomma, dopo ho sentito quelli del cimitero di Pesaro. Gli ho detto, guardate, io ho trovato sto riscontro di nove caduti perché questo, l’amico delle Marche mi ha detto:’Guarda, io non so di questo aereo caduto, però ho trovato nelle mie ricerche un servizio su Il Corriere dell’Adriatico che parlava di un funerale di tedeschi ma non diceva né dove erano morti e né di che aereo erano’. Però un numero così, guarda, alcuni tedeschi, il funerale. Allora con quell’articolo lì, sentendo col cimitero se trovavano riscontro con la data di quell’articolo, mi ha trovato gli stessi che erano su al cimitero del Parco della Futa. Lì c’era scritto che era un aereo con sei motori perché c’era la sigla dell’aereo e quindi si è chiuso il cerchio.
FS: Si è chiuso il cerchio.
DC: E dopo ho presentato anche quella lì [unclear].
FS: Che bella questo.
DC: Ti mando anche quella.
FS: Ma questo, guarda, stai facendo un lavorone.
GM: Sì, anche a San Marino è caduto uno.
DC: Sì, è andato a sbattere contro la montagna un giorno che c’era nebbia. C’è, nel cimitero di San Marino c’è
GM: C’è l’elica.
DC: La tomba con l’elica. Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Quei miei amici col metal detector hanno fatto un libro su tutti gli aerei che hanno censito loro.
GM: Su quella collina, sotto la città
DC: Montecchio si chiama lì, mi sembra.
GM: Non so. Dove ero io, io ero a Le Piagge, [unclear] che è poco lontano dal centro, no, dal paese e c’è una collinetta, hai capito, che si va giù a Santa Mustiola lì e st’aereo [unclear] quella volta.
DC: Veniva dalla zona di Ravenna e stava rientrando anche [unclear].
GM: Ma io penso che era uno di quei bimotori,
DC: Bimotori, bravissimo.
GM: Pippo, Pippo il bombardiere, che faceva [unclear], butteva zò una bomba.
DC: Buttava una bomba di cla, una bomba di là,
GM: Sempre quel fazeva.
DC: E disturbava il sonno della gente.
GM: Buttava i bengala, che s’illuminava tutto, no e poi faceva un giretto e [makes a booming noise] [unclear].
DC: Ma sai che quegli aerei
GM: Al Ponte di Verucchio, quando noi eravamo nella galleria, [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs]
GM: Hai capì, ecco, arriva Pippo buttava zò i bengala e poi [makes a booming noise] e no i ne ciapava mai quel ponte, l’ha fat saltar per aria i tedeschi
DC: I tedeschi quando si sono ritirati
GM: Quando si sono ritirati. Hai capito?
DC: M’ha detto uno che stava dalla parte di là, m’ha detto, [unclear], i pezzi della roba che sono saltati, ha detto [unclear], ha detto, anche loro, ha detto, abbiamo visto un sacco di attacchi su quel ponte e non l’hann mai ciap.
GM: Non la mai ciap. Tutta scena [unclear]
DC: [speaks dialect]
FS: Ma pensa te. Bravo. Allora bene.
DC: Ti mando se c’hai voglia di leggere qualcosa
FS: No, ma è interessante, no ma mi piace molto la tua passione, no, perché io ce l’ho con i libri quella passione lì, nel senso come ricerca degli scritti, delle, no, a chi appartengono. Adesso non le faccio più quelle ricerche lì, però prima mi piaceva. E dai, è bello, è bello quando scopri, no
DC: A me piace tantissimo.
FS: Che arrivi, come hai detto te, che [unclear]
DC: Che riesci a trovare i riscontri
FS: Arrivi al, che ne so, al manuscritto del, questo [unclear] l’ha scritto quello, per dire.
DC: Io al tuo babbo gli ho chiesto per telefono, sai di quei due fucilati perché.
GM: Ho dunque quelli lì, sì io ho sentito un paio di volte
DC: A colonia De Orchi hanno [unclear] ragazzi
GM: Però, ho chiesto a mio fratello anche perché [speaks dialect] che cla volte hanno amazzè tutti a De Orchi perché io mi ricordo, quando sono venuto giù dalla guerra diciamo che siamo venuti che son venuto giù prima io dei miei, di mia mamma e di mio babbo, no, mio babbo era venuto giù, di mia mamma. Era passato mio cugino che andava dal dottore a San Marino perché aveva un infezione in un occhio e lui stava [speaks dialect]
DC: Al pedrune
Gm: Al pedrune. E io sono andato con lui che pioveva come oggi così. Siam passati tutta la campagna dove c’erano ancora le mine, i mort ancora mess a gambe de fura,
DC: Dio poi!
GM: hai capito?
DC: Cos’hanno visto questi.
FS: [unclear]
GM: Proprio c’era ancora.
DC: Tutto così, era successo da poco
GM: Il mio babbo, [unclear] con un casco su un bastone,
DC: [unclear] Un bastone.
GM: Per gli inglesi metteva il casco inglese, se eran tedeschi metteva il casco tedesco.
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: I tedeschi li lasciavano così più che altro, m’hann detto.
GM: Sì guarda. E voglio dire che sono venuto giù e dopo che dopo, il giorno dopo sono andato a prendere la bicicletta [speaks dialect] alla dugena da una mia zia che era sfollata lì. I cupertun [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Allora [speaks dialect] cercione
FS: Madonna.
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Strada vecchia di San Marino che era tutta una colonna di carri armati. [unclear] Puttana Madonna [unclear]
DC: Loro ce l’avevano la roba, eh.
GM: Tanta roba che ha questi qui. Ti facevi il coso coi tedeschi che erano ridotti [unclear]
DC: All’osso. [unclear]
GM: Con le vacche
DC: Con le vacche [unclear]
GM: Che dopo [unclear] ero arrivato lì alla Grotta Rossa, me davano cioccolata, m a’rcord ne [speaks dialect] sta bicicletta cerciun [unclear]
FS: Cioccolata [unclear] ce la puoi fare.
DC: Ma chi che l’aveva mai vista, la cioccolata?
GM: Non l’avevo mai vista la cioccolata. Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] [unclear] E allora che cosa ti diceva tuo fratello di quei due?
GM: Mi diceva:’Na, [unclear]
DC: No, no [unclear]
GM: Perché Gino, ma perché lui era in ferrovia mio fratello, no, aveva, era giovane, [unclear] diciassett diciotto anni. Però lui prendeva tutti i treni, tutti i giorni il treno poi passava da mia nonna che era ancora qui e poi dopo ogni tanto veniva a vedere della casa e poi andava a prendere il trenino per venire su a San Marino, noi dopo eravamo a San Marino.
DC: Finché ha funzionato.
GM: E lui sapeva più informazioni. Lui ha detto che:’No, lì l’unica cosa è che hanno ammazzato, sono stati quei tre tedeschi che tenevano la resistenza da [unclear] che poi erano seppelliti lì vicino [unclear]
DC: Come mi dicevi, me l’ha detto Zangeri, che li hanno seppelliti lì dove c’era quel traliccio
GM: Sì bravo.
DC: Davanti a Papini la, coso lì.
GM: Sì, erano tre tedeschi lì.
DC: Guarda che è vero quello della fucilazione.
GM: Sì, quello della fucilazione può essere, però la ricerca non c’è di quelli lì.
DC: Adess sta a sentire cosa mi è capitato. Il primo che mi ha raccontato di questa cosa è stato Tonino Baschetta, quello che fa i cesti a [unclear].
GM: I cesti.
UI. Lo conosci?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Sandrini lì. [unclear] poliziotto [unclear] suicidato.
GM: No, non lo conosco.
DC: Sandrino, due anni meno di noi aveva.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Tonino Baschetta sta qui in Via Davanzati, qui, è vicinissimo. Qui, e lui [unclear]. Quando noi eravamo bambini avevano la bottega attaccata al Bar Vici. L’alimentari.
FS: Ah. Eh. Eh.
DC: Suo figlio, lui quando era bambino dice, loro stavano lì vicino alla Corial, sopra la [unclear]. Dice, c’avevano i tedeschi in casa perché venivano su dal fronte, si schiaffavano nelle case del contadino e dice, cosa faccio io ero diventato amico con loro, molti erano giovani cosa facevano la mattina presto? Prendevano i loro carri, andavano già verso Marina centro, le case con i bombardamenti erano tutte disabitate, spaccavano la porta, entravano, portavano via di tutto. Dice, facevano dei carri di roba. Arrivavano lì a casa mia, facevano le casse di legno, schiaffavano roba dentro, portavano alla stazione e mandavano in Germania. Fa, ma sono stati lì da me due tre mesi, dice, la roba, la roba che hann port via, io andavo con loro, ha detto, perché ero giovane. Un giorno tornando con sti carri, arrivano lì vicino al tiro a volo, un tedesco in mezzo alla strada li ferma, sentono la scarica di fucile e poi li fanno passare. Quando arriviamo davanti, [unclear], li hanno fucilati tra la colonia e il gruppo di bagni che c’è verso il distributore di Giorgio.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Lì contro il muro li hanno fucilati.
GM: [unclear] anche a me avevano detto così.
DC: E lui mi ha detto: ‘Il tedesco, quando siamo stati lì vicino, mi ha messo le mani sugli occhi ma io sono riuscito a vedere. C’erano due ragazzi stesi per terra. Dicevano che erano due toscani che li avevano presi a tagliare i fili del telefono dei tedeschi e li hanno fucilati. Invece, avevo mandato, sapendo, pensando che fossero partigiani, ho mandato mail all’ANPI di Ancona, all’ANPI di, tutto qui intorno,
FS: Sì sì sì.
DC: All’ANPI di Firenze, all’ANPI di Ravenna, non mi ha rispost nienche nissun. Solo un istituto di Ravenna mi ha dato risposta che loro non conoscevano sta storia. Un giorno, leggendo un libro di Forlì, di Mambelli che ha fatto la cronistoria di quello che succedeva soprattutto a Forlì, ma due libri più grossi di quello, con un sacco di dati interessantissimi. Trovo, tre marzo 1944, fucilati due ragazzi a Forlì e di uno c’era anche il nome. Erano di Faenza. Questi qui probabilmente erano, si erano dovuti arruolare nella Repubblica Sociale verso, quando te ti sei iscritto nella Todt. Molti per non dover farsi richiamare, andavano nella Todt perché lì eri esentato dal presentarti. Questi qui probabilmente hanno cercato di scappare via, li hanno presi e li hanno fucilati. Quindi su quel libro ho trovato un nome, vado al cimitero di Rimini, c’era il nome lui e di quell’altro. Quindi son i due nomi, erano tutti e due del ’25, avevano diciannove anni e li sono venuti a riprendere i familiari dopo nel ‘45, dopo la guerra. Ho conosciuto [unclear]
GM: E allora come diceva quello lì che li hanno fucilati
DC: Li hanno fucilati lì contro il muro
GM: Alla fine del De Orchi e l’altra palazzina.
DC: Sono entrato in contatto con uno di Faenza, gentilissimo, che mi ha mandato anche dei dati su Rimini che li ha rimediati non so dove, e lui mi ha mandato anche la fotografia di uno di quei due. M’ha mandato la fotografia del monumento che c’è a Faenza dove ci sono riportati i loro nomi ma dell’altro ancora non sono riuscito a rimediare la foto. Ho sentito con quelli dell’anagrafe di Faenza. Mi hanno detto che, volevo parlare con, contatto con i familiari per vedere di avere.
FS: Eh sì, un riscontro diciamo vero.
DC: Dei riscontri. Di uno sono morti tutti, un altro si è trasferito a Cesena e con quel nome lì non figura nessuno. Adesso dovrei provare a sentire se a Cesena mi dicono, vivono, ci sono degli eredi perché dopo c’è il discorso della riservatezza, è un po’ fatica.
FS: Sì, un po’ fatica.
DC: Però,
FS: Può darsi che
DC: Può darsi che come l’hann fatto gli altri
GM: Io mi ricordo questo qui
DC: E quelli di Faenza dell’anagrafe mi hanno mandato un documento in pdf dove c’è scritto addirittura: ‘fucilati dai tedeschi’ e c’è anche il nome di un tenente della repubblica sociale che era andato sotto processo per quel, per quell’uccisione. Che era di Pesaro questo qui, quest’ufficiale.
FS: Ma pensa te.
DC: Quindi.
FS: Devo salutare. Ciao carissimo.
DC: Piacere di averti visto.
FS: Alla prossima.
GM: Però l’hanno,
FS: Continua così.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Non l’hanno, dico pure, l’hanno spenta così perché io dopo.
DC: All’ANPI qui di Rimini non sa niente nessuno. Li hanno fucilati. Potevano dire, sono due partigiani.
GM: Infatti io mi ricordo che eravamo, ma ti ho detto, dopo la guerra subito, e dopo siamo andati a lavorare un po’ anche con gli inglesi, a lavorè anche a De Orchi [speaks dialect]
DC: Con gli alleati.
GM: Con la [unclear]
DC: Che lì c’erano un magazzino di roba m’hann detto della Madonna.
GM: Madonna.
DC: [laughs]
GM: [unclear]
DC: [laughs] Però, tu, petta adess bisogna che la va a chieder perché se no la mi madre, la mi moglie. Te vuoi andè a prender [speaks dialect] uno di sti dì?
GM: Sì, sì, la facciamo.
DC: Dai, così continuiamo il discorso del bombardamento di San Marino. Comunque te ti ricordi un sacco di roba.
GM: Sì, eh mi ricordo tutto quello che
DC: Petta eh, l’ultima roba che m’hann detto su quell’aereo che avete visto
GM: Sparire
DC: Sparire.
GM: Io, per me è cascat [unclear] quell’aereo
DC: Gli alleati, i loro colleghi hanno detto, è andato sul mare, è tornato sulla terra ed è esploso in volo. Dovrebbe essere caduto tra Gradara e Gabicce, quelle zone lì, Cattolica, quel settore lì.
GM: Quel settore lì è caduto quello lì, [unclear]
DC: Un mese prima di questo fatto, ma non so se te l’hai visto, era passato, basso stavolta, perché questo doveva essere abbastanza su, era passato un altro quadrimotore che avevo dietro le calcagna due aerei tedeschi che, un da sotto e un da sora il mitraglieva. Sono arrivati fino a San Clemente, anche lì si sono buttati tutti i paracadutisti tranne il mitragliere di coda che, poretto si vede che l’avevano ucciso quei, i caccia
GM: I caccia
DC: E poi questo qui è andato a cadere tra Levola, Saludecio, Montefiore, quelle zone là. Te questo, te lo ricordi un aereo grosso, basso, che lasciava il fumo, attaccato da due caccia?
GM: No, ma io mi ricordo un’altra roba, che eravamo a San Marino che una formazione di aerei tedeschi, inglesi che andava verso nord, che passavano
DC: Bombardieri
GM: Bombardieri che andavano verso la campagna
DC: Sì
GM: E lì si sono sfilati dall’aeroporto qui di Rimini
DC: Sono decollati da qui, gli sono andati dietro
GM: Sono andati dietro e lì c’è stato un [speaks dialect] quella volta ma era in [speaks dialect].
DC: Perché ha incominciato il bombardamento?
GM: Perché c’era, c’era i caccia inglesi che c’erano anche i [unclear]
DC: Quelli con due code?
GM: Con due code.
DC: Sì.
GM: Puttana la Madonna.
DC: Li han fatt combattiment?
GM: Combattiment [speaks dialect]
UI. [laughs]
GM: [speaks dialect] dopo l’è finì perché [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear] Quindi erano anche abbastanza bassi.
GM: Bassi, si vedeva proprio [unclear], puttana madonna, e la formazione andava avanti. E c’era sto combattimento che avevano fatto sopra Cà Berlone [?], Santa Mustiola
DC: Però non è caduto nessun apparecchio, secondo te?
GM: Non ho visto cadere nessuno, io lì.
DC: Questo non me l’aveva mai raccontato nessuno.
GM: Ah e l’è cla volta l’è sta un cumbattiment
DC: Quanto potrà essere durato, cinque minuti, dieci minuti?
GM: Eh
DC: Gli ha sparà na [unclear]?
GM: Sì dieci minuti, sì, sette minuti sicuro.
DC: Secondo te quanti aerei ci potevano essere in questo combattimento?
GM: La formazione dei caccia, [unclear] ce ne erano due, tre, che giravano.
DC: E chi è il tedesco, secondo te?
GM: E il tedesco, penso, due o [unclear]
DC: Altrettanto.
GM: Altrettanto.
DC: A Monte Tauro c’è stato un combattimento aereo. Due aerei si sono andati anche a sbattere e quello americano è morto poeretto. Il tedesco si è buttato con il paracadute.
DC: Io ho visto una volta proprio in volo sopra Covignano [?] sempre dalla galleria allora che lì Covignano ogni tent i caccia
DC: Lì hanno attaccato di brutto.
Gm: [unclear] Una volta proprio ho visto, proprio presi in pieno con una cannonata.
DC: Ne è caduto uno di aereo sotto la chiesa di San Fortunato. E [speaks dialect], sai dove gl’è? A metà sulla spalla ho parlato con uno che stava nel Ghetto. Dopo la guerra lui, quando è finito i combattimenti, ha recuperato un motore che l’ha portato giù e l’ha venduto alla stracciaia. Se, come dici te, lo hanno preso, lui si è schiantato lì contro la costa, a metà costa.
GM: Dopo [unclear], il giorno dopo
DC: Che aereo era, secondo te? Era un caccia?
GM: Era un caccia, erano i famosi Spitfire, hai capito.
Ui: Uno si era schiantato alla garitta della dogana. Che aveva fatto l’attacco basso
GM: Anche
DC: L’ha sbagliè, non ha calcolato bene, ha strisciato il terreno, s’amazzè lì.
GM: S’amazzè lì. Ah, qui passeva da sopra lì quando vedevano, io mi ricordo una volta c’era due, tre camion tedeschi che passavano uno ogni tanto, no, perché stavano in distanza. Era sempre un tedes sora. La Madonna, l’era un caccia [speaks dialect] un caccia sopra
DC: Come l’ha visto, eh
GM: Come l’ha visto, puttana madonna, che il tedesco s’è buttè del camion e
DC: [laughs]
GM: [mimics machine gun sounding]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect] Prima di, tra Verucchio e Borgo Maggiore, sulla strada lì.
DC: Arca madonna, sulla strada da, quello che girava
GM: Ah lì [unclear]
DC: Uno m’ha detto è tedesco ma aveva messo, un italiano, dovevano andare a Pesaro a prendere materiale. M’ha detto, m’avevano messo sopra il carro che io dovevo guardare [unclear] [laughs] ho detto, batti sulla cabina se vedi caccia che a buttèm a terra. Ha dett, se m’andè ben cla volta. Dai, che adesso ti lascio.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gino Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
Gino Muratori (b. 1929) recollects three Rimini bombings that occurred in November 1944, one of which was aimed at the Ausa river bridge. Mentions his grandmother losing two relatives when their boarding house was destroyed. Remembers how on 26 November 1944 they didn’t hear the alarm sounding and sought shelter only after seeing aircraft approaching. Describes evacuees being temporarily housed at local hotels. Remembers German anti-aircraft guns and barbed-wire fences, and recollects being employed by the Todt organization as a construction worker, toiling alongside Ukrainian and Polish prisoners of war deployed as truck drivers. Tells of his father being sent to Germany to work in a submarine factory. Discusses various anecdotes; dogfights; aircraft jettisoning fuel tanks; looting of private houses; strafing of German military transport; "Pippo" dropping flares and bombs at night time. Describes the whereabouts, use and general arrangement of German fortifications along the Adriatic coast.
Creator
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Daniele Celli
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-14
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:05:29 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMuratoriLG161125
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Rimini
Temporal Coverage
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1944-11
1944-11-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
forced labour
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/112/1171/APaganoA170712.2.mp3
c3afcb5991340adf8033f267c007bc55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pagano, Andreino
Andreino Pagano
A Pagano
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Andreino Pagano who recollects his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-12
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound. Oral history
Identifier
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Pagano, A
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il signor Andreino Pagano. Siamo a Casei Gerola, è il 12 luglio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Pagano per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Pagano, vuole raccontarci i suoi ricordi, le sue esperienze nei bombardamenti di Voghera?
AP: Voghera, sì, e dintorni,
FA: E dintorni.
AP: Perché io essendo un po’ distaccato da Voghera, come tu vedi, sono a quattro chilometri da Voghera, verso Casei Gerola, ho vissuto questi eventi un po’ fuori, pur essendone al corrente. Cosa ricordo io? Già dico che ricordo queste cose perché io sono della classe 1934 e a quell’epoca avevo otto, nove anni, perché siamo nel 1943, ‘44, quegli anni lì, eh. Cosa ricordo? Prima parto da Casei Girola e poi mi avvicino a Voghera. Io mi ricordo che, quando bombardavano qui nella zona io mi ricordo che mi sono rifugiato nella chiesa parrocchiale di Casei Girola perché già a quel tempo avevo capito che i muri della chiesa, spessi quasi un metro, mi difendevano da eventuali bombe o da mitragliamenti, ecco. L’altra cosa venendo in avanti che ricordo è: un giorno c’è stato in mitragliamento sulla strada provinciale Novara-Voghera, un mitragliamento ad un camion pieno di biscotti e in quell’occasione volavano scatole di biscotti dappertutto, nei campi, nei miei campi, e figuriamoci noi che, a quell’epoca avevamo fame, andare a raccogliere i biscotti da mangiare per i campi era una delizia.
FA: È certo.
AP: Boh. Altra cosa di ricordi che è un po’ più pesante è questa. Quando c’è stato il bombardamento nell’, all’officina ferroviaria di Voghera, dove lì riparavano e costruivano le vetture e i treni. Quando hanno, c’è stato quel bombardamento, io mi trovavo nelle vicinanze di Voghera, su una strada detta Capalla, che poi è quella lì che ho segnato lì, e andavo alla messa con mia nonna in bicicletta. Visti questi aerei che sganciavano bombe, che mi passavano sopra la testa, mi sono rifugiato in un casotto da vigna di campagna e mi sono infilato dentro un camino. Finito il tutto, finiti i bombardamenti, ne sono uscito, ho trovato mia nonna che era con me lì, ed ero nero e mi hanno preso per uno spazzacamino, tanto ero sporco e nero perché mi sono, intanto mi sono riparato sotto il camino. Ecco questo è un po’ il ricordo degli eventi dei bombardamenti. Altri fatti collegati a questi che ricordo sono l’occupazione della cascina mia questa da parte prima dei tedeschi e poi degli americani con i mongoli. Sono, hanno alloggiato qui con le loro truppe, cavalli, eccetera eccetera, ma di lì hanno occupato anche le nostre camere eh! Dormivano nelle nostre stanze. Niente di particolare, poi insomma. Un ricordo che mi viene e che ho ancora il segno adesso in un dito è che questi americani soldati avevano delle lattine, scatole di cioccolato, di roba, di dolciumi e io mi sono abbassato per raccogliere una scatola di questi, per mangiare i cioccolati, e mi sono tagliato un dito e ho ancora la cicatrice adesso, a distanza di 75 anni, pensa. Ricordo che mi hanno disinfettato subito e mi hanno messo su la, già la Penicillina, allora loro avevano già la penicillina, la polverina bianca, e m’hanno disinfettato, pensa, [unclear] e qui eravamo nel 1944, ecco. Ricordo un altro particolare dell’occupazione della guerra. Mi avevano, i tedeschi avevano requisito, requisivano gli animali e mi hanno requisito l’unico cavallo che c’era in cascina, che faceva i lavori agricoli, pensare il disagio, l’unico cavallo te lo portano via. Poi, per un caso di fortuna, me l’hanno rilasciato subito perché aveva la coda mozza, il mio, stava male, e allora me l’hanno
FA: L’hanno lasciato.
AP: Rilasciato. Ehm, ancora, ti posso dire, ricordare, che in quei tempi a fine la guerra o in quell’epoca lì, c’è stato, lo chiamavano un po’ il mercato nero. Venivano giù i genovesi col treno, portavano le lattine d’olio e noi gli davamo invece sacchetti di farina, lardo e salumi. Dove li avevamo noi i salumi, nascosti per non farceli rubare dai tedeschi e o, da mericani no, perché ne avevano da mangiare? Avevamo delle otri, che io ne ho ancora una lì fuori, te la faccio vedere, delle otri antiche, si mettevano dentro lardo e salumi, si facevano una buca nell’orto, si sotterrava, stava al fresco e si conservava e nessuno te la rubava. Altra cosa è questa: come si conservava le derrate alimentari. Avevamo il pozzo, profondo venti metri e calevamo con la cordicella il cestino nel pozzo con dentro il burro e altre sostanze alimentari, altre derrate, così stavano fresche. Ed era il frigorifero d’epoca, ecco, e abbastanza valido. Da ultimo, di queste cose, di questi ricordi, i quali mi meraviglio di saperli ricordare dopo tanto tempo, ghe passà settantacinc’anni, da queste cose. Che, due famiglie di operai delle officine ferroviarie di Voghera, che abitavano nei pressi di queste officine che sono state bombardate, avevano paura di dormire lì la notte. Venivano qui a dormire da noi. Abbiamo ospitato due famiglie. E dove dormivano? Nel fienile, ma erano sicuri,
FA: E certo.
AP: Almeno dai bombardamenti, e così è stato. Sono stati contenti e poi li ritrovati ancora, finita la guerra, insomma, li ho trovati, siamo sempre stati amici. Io non ricordo altro se non queste cose, o belle o brutte. Dimmi tu.
FA: Posso farle una domanda?
AP: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda mica di Pippo?
AP: Pippo, oh, sì, Pippo, oh, mi ricordo. Il lucino azzurro che girava di notte, sentivamo il rumore che , ma non faceva tanto
UI: Pippo si chiamava Pippo.
AP: Senti! Eh, questo. Questo era
UI: Ha sete?
FA: No, no grazie.
AP: Non disturbare, eh! Questo era la spia, un aereo spia americana non dei tedeschi, americana ecco. Io ricordo quell’aereo, sì.
FA: Eh girava tutte le notti.
AP: Girava tutte le notti. E la gente cosa faceva? Per non far, perché quello individuava dove c’erano delle luci. Tutti avevano fatto l’oscuramento ai vetri, le carte blu sui vetri per non fare vedere le luci.
UI: Non sparavano. Vado, vado.
AP: [unclear] Ecco poi, va’ avanti tu che sei stato disturbato adesso.
FA: Sì, beh, a parte Pippo, venivano spesso invece su Voghera? Voi da qua vedevate?
AP: Venivano spesso su Voghera e facevano il giro qui perché qui da Voghera è vicino, faceva il giro di notte ma lo si vedeva eh l’aereo, lo vedevamo. L’ho visto io, ricordo.
FA: Bombardavano di più di notte o di giorno?
AP: Di notte i bombardamenti e di giorno i mitragliamenti.
FA: Ah.
AP: Vedi, Il mitragliamento al camion dei biscotti sulla strada in pieno giorno. I bombardamenti all’officina ferroviaria di notte. Il ponte sullo Staffora a Voghera e altri che di cui ne parla anche il dottor Salerno, tutto di notte, che faceva più danno.
FA: Ho capito, va bene.
AP: Dimmi pure tu.
FA: E quindi lei da qui insomma vedeva quando bombardavano tutti i campi.
AP: Eh sì, si vedevano i, ma, non solo da qui vicino, di qui vedevamo quando sono stati fatti dei bombardamenti a Genova.
FA: Ah certo.
AP: Dei bagliori, mi ricordo io, si vedevamo da qui.
FA: E insomma, eravate preoccupati.
AP: Eh sì eh, sai, non si sa mai, se sono là, oggi sono là domani vengono qui, eravamo preoccupati. E poi, per fortuna, un bel momento, è finita.
FA: Meno male.
AP: È un po’ vedi che da quell’età lì è un po’ incosciente. Non, magari non avevo certi, certe paure. Adesso mi fai venire in mente una cosa. Quando c’erano i mitragliamenti, dove scappavamo noi qui? Qui nel confine della mia proprietà c’è un fosso, si chiama fosso di Bagnolino come, noi correvamo a rifugiarci in quel fosso lì, coricati, non un fosso, eravamo in una trincea,
FA: Certo.
AP: E io mi ricordo di aver visto le trincee fatte a zig-zag. Proprio per entrare la gente e ripararsi dalle, più dai mitragliamenti che dalle bombe.
FA: E questo a Voghera, le trincee a zig-zag.
AP: Nei, nelle periferie perché era dove c’è il terreno che hanno fatto questo, nelle periferie di Voghera, sì.
FA: Ah.
AP: Li chiamavano. Poi c’è, a Voghera c’erano dei rifugi ma quelli io non li ho mai visti perché non ci sono mai stato. Li sentivo nominare, i rifugi e suonavano gli allarmi quando arrivavano gli aerei in prossimità.
FA: E quindi voi sentivate gli allarmi di Voghera.
AP: Gli allarmi, stanno bombardando su Voghera e allora noi per precauzione ci rifugiavamo nel nostro fosso.
FA: Nel fosso.
AP: Nel fosso.
FA: Quindi era un po’ il vostro rifugio ecco.
AP: Sì, il rifugio locale era quello lì.
FA: Ho capito. Va bene. La ringrazio.
AP: Vuoi sapere d’altro? Dimmi tu, io, quello che ricordo e sono queste cose qui ecco. Ah, devo dirti anche che io ho lì un ricordo. Tu vuoi anche fotografarlo? Ti faccio vedere. E io ho un rimorchio agricolo che ha sotto quattro ruote dei Dodge americani, dei camion da guerra.
FA: Ah sì sì. Ah erano? Ah, ho capito.
AP: Ce li ho lì, e sono ancora in funzione, pensa, i gà cent’anni le robe lì.
FA: Eh sì.
AP: E sono, e li tengo perché, e li usiamo quei rimorchi lì. Eh sì, rispettandoli un po’ senza, però sono gomme da, i Dodge, famoso, e camion americani, o tedeschi, no americani
FA: Americani, americani. Va bene.
AP: Tu li vuoi fotografare? Te li faccio fotografare.
FA: No dopo, sì, dopo li, diamo un occhio.
AP: Va bene, direi che, l’intervista va benissimo.
AP: Ti piace così, ti va bene così? Se vuoi sapere qualcos’altro domandi tu.
FA: Va bene. No, direi che siamo a posto, i punti sono stati toccati. Va bene, allora.
AP: Ti posso anche far fotografare uno o due bossoli da mitraglie, da mitragliatrice antiaerea. Ne ho due io.
FA: Ah, li ha raccolti.
AP: Li ho raccolti, e c’erano anche quelli piccoli, ma quelli lì sono spariti, i bossoli così, quelli da mitragliatrice. Invece quelli da antiaerea, i bossoli sono questi, così.
FA: No ecco, adesso allora, visto che parliamo di antiaerea, lei ha visto qualche postazione di contraerea qua a Voghera?
AP: A Voghera, viste no, ne avevo sentito che c’era qualche postazione che difendevano ma facevano poco.
FA: Provavano a difendere.
AP: Provavano, sì ma ci voleva altro che delle cosine così contro quelli, i bombardieri quando. Io ricordo ancora adesso il rumore dei bombardieri, che erano terrificanti perché non era il rumore di un aereo solo, erano sette, otto, dieci bombardieri insieme, tutti insieme.
FA: Uno stormo.
AP: E ricordo anche il sibilo delle bombe, quando uscivano dall’aereo che venivano giù, fischiavano, te capì?
FA: Ho capito. Contraerea americana, ehm americana, tedesca o italiana?
AP: Dunque, la contraerea, questi che ci bombardavano noi, chi erano? Tedeschi? Adesso non mi ricordo più perché poi non, quelli là ci hanno liberati, gli americani sono venuti a liberarci e c’erano sotto i tedeschi e sì, sì, eh.
FA: Quindi italiana insomma.
AP: Sì.
Fa: Ho capito. Va bene, la ringrazio per questa intervista.
AP: Prego.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andreino Pagano
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-12
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:15:58 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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APaganoA170712
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Pavia
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Andreino Pagano (b. 1934) remembers his wartime experiences in the Pavia province. He explains how a parish church provided a good shelter owing to its thick walls. Recalls various stories: resorting to the black market, the bombing of the Voghera railway works, daytime strafing of a lorry delivering biscuit boxes, scattering them all over the place, the driver seeking shelter inside a vineyard cottage fireplace and afterwards being mistaken for a chimney sweep as he was covered in soot; Germans seizing his only workhorse which was later returned, being 'bobtailed'. Describes how his farmhouse was first occupied by German and then American soldiers, the latter coming with so-called ‘Mongols’. Remembers the first use of Penicillin and food being stored in a well like a larder. Mentioning 'Pippo' flying and recollecting blacked-out windows covered with blue paper. He remembers the droning noise made by the bombers and the bombs as they were falling.
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/78/744/ASimonsohnW170812.2.mp3
73cfe0f9105ae524241bd88ad6f67653
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Simonsohn, Wilhelm
W Simonsohn
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Fighter planes
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Wilhelm Simonsohn (b. 1919), a Luftwaffe pilot.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PS: Dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Center durchgeführt. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der Befragte ist Herr Wilhelm Simonsohn. Heute ist der 4 Juli, 4 August 2017. Wir danken Herrn Simonsohn für die Erlaubnis, ihn interview zu dürfen. Ihr aufgezeichnetes Interview wird Teil des Digitalem Archiv des International Bomber Command Centre werden, das von der Universität Lincoln im Auftrag des IBCC verwaltet und vom Heritage Lottery Fund unterstützt wird. Ihr Interview wird als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann. Das Ziel dieses Abkommens ist dafür zu sorgen dass ihr Beitrag dem IBCC Digitalem Archiv hinzugefügt wird, in Übereinstimmung mit ihren Wünschen. Dieser Vertrag ist zwischen der Universität Lincoln („Die Universität“) und den befragten („Sie“) enstanden. Ich, also, wieder noch einmal die drei Fragen. Ich, der Befragte, bestätige dass ich meine Zustimmung zur Aufnahme gegeben habe und das ich hiermit der Universität alle die Urheberrechte für die Verwendung in allen Medien gebe. Ich verstehe dass es nicht meinen moralischen Anspruch beeinträchtigen wird, als Darsteller identifiziert zu werden, dem Urheber, Design und Patentsgesetz 1988 gemäß. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Danke.
WS: Bitte. So, und jetzt zur Sache.
PS: Nein warte, warten sie bitte. Bitte um Verzeihung.
WS: [unclear]
PS: Nein da sind noch die anderen beiden Fragen. Ich stimme zu, dass mein Name öffentlich mit diesem Interview verbunden wird, aber verstehe dass alle die anderen persönlichen Angaben unter streng vertraulichen Bedingungen gespeichert und nicht an Dritte weitergegeben werden. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Ich erlaube dass mein Interview online zugänglich gemacht wird. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Dieses Abkommen wird dem Englischen Gesetz und der Zuständigkeit der Englischen Gerichte unterlegen sein und ihnen ausgelegt sein. So, ehm, ich kann jetzt zu den Fragen kommen.
WS: Ja.
PS: Also, ehm, ich wollte gerne, wir möchten gerne noch etwas zu ihrer Familie wissen, und zu ihren Jüdischen Eltern, also zu ihrem Haushalt wissen.
WS: Ich wurde als, mit zwei Jahren von Eltern adoptiert bei denen der männliche Teil aber ein Jude war. Ich habe ja auch noch einen Jüdischen Namen. Ich habe ab zwei Jahre alt, meine richtigen Eltern habe ich praktisch nie kennengelernt. Ich kenne also nur meine Adoptiveltern, wenn ich von Eltern spreche meine ich [unclear] den diese. Und mein Adoptivvater war ein Jude wenn auch kirchlich getauft und Deutsch nationaler-politischer Gesinnung. Das war’s.
PS: Können sie mir noch ein bisschen mehr erzählen, ich meine wie, wie sich, sagen wir die Geschehnisse.
WS: Ja also, mein Vater war Seeman, der fuhr zur See auf dem P-Linern der Reederei Laiesz. Da kommt jetzt in diesen Tagen aus den USA die Peking nach Hamburg, das ist einer von diesen sogenannten P-Linern der Reederei Laiesz, grosse Seegelschiffe die Salpeter von Iquique von Chile nach Hamburg gebracht haben. Auf diesen P-Linern ist mein Vater gefahren. Er war vor dem ersten Weltkrieg war er an Bord dieser Schiffe. Er hatt sich dann nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg hier niedergelassen in Altona bei Hamburg, also ein Stadtteil von Hamburg jetzt, mit einer Kohlenhandlung. Wir hatten ein Geschäft mit zwei [unclear] und Arbeitsmännern und es ging uns finanziell ging dieser Familie, deren amtliches Kind ja ich geblieben bin da meine Eltern aus biologischen Gründen selbst keine Kinder haben konnten, bin ich in gutbürgerlichen Verhältnissen hier in Hamburg aufgewachsen. Ich habe ein Gymnasium besucht aber nach 1933 ging es dann wirtschaftlich mit uns gleich ab [unclear] das Geschäft meines Vaters boicottiert wurde. Er war ja Jude. Und 1935 waren wir dann wir [unclear] Familie, waren wir finanziell am Ende. Mein Vater, Deutsch-national gesind, wollte nicht auswandern. Er glaubte Hitler sei nur eine kurze Episode und das ginge denn bald vorüber, er dachte nie dann an auswandern. Ich selbst war in der Yachtschule in Blankenese, ein Vorort auch wieder von Hamburg, als junger, als 11, 12, 13, 14jähriger und wir wurden 1934 en block, also die ganzen Jungs in der Yachtschule, in die Hitler-Jugend überführt. Und erst 1935 erfuhr ich das meine Eltern nicht meine leiblichen Eltern sind, sondern meine Adoptiveltern. Das kam dadurch das einer der Jungs bei einem Streit mir den Vorwurf macht: ‘Du bist ja ein Judenlümmel!’ und daraufhin habe ich meinen Vater [unclear] angesprochen und in der Tat hatt sich denn herausgestellt das meine Eltern nicht meine leiblichen Eltern waren. Ich selbst bin dann später eingezogen worden zum Reichsarbeitsdienst 1938 und dann im Herbst 1938 wurde ich zur Wehrmacht eingezogen. Bis dahin also mein Schicksal im Rahmen dieser Familie. Reicht ihnen das jetzt mal?
PS: Ich wollte noch ein Moment wissen was eben nachher mit ihrem Vater passiert ist, wie sich das dann eben.
WS: Ja, ich war im Herbst 1938, im November, drei Tage Soldat, es war also der 3-4 November 1938, da bekam ich dann ein Telegramm von meiner Mutter in dem drin stand, sie hätten, sie, die SS oder wehr, hätten Papa abgeholt. Da war mein Vater an diesem ersten November 1938 tatsächlich von der Gestapo abgeholt worden und [unclear] wurde gebracht in das Konzentrationslager Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen bei Berlin. Mit diesem Telegramm bin ich zu meinem Kompanieschef gegangen und habe um drei Tage Sonderurlaub gebeten, der wurde mir auch gewilligt und ich konnte nach Hause fahren, meine Mutter trösten und habe einen Brief geschrieben an den Gauleiter Kaufmann hier in Hamburg, das ist die höchste politische Instanz gewesen für mich und gerade mit diesem Brief in dem Büro des Gauleiters der mich selbst nicht empfing aber einer seiner Mitarbeiter und nun konnte ich mein Interventionsschreiben ihm übergeben in dem ich aufgeführt hatte welche Deutsch, welche positive Deutsche nationale Gesinnung mein Vater hatte und das er auch im Ersten Weltkrieg Kriegsteilnehmer war und 1935 dafür sogar, und das ist geradezu Paradox, noch im Namen des Führers und Reichskanzlers ein Orden bekommen hat, ein Orden [unclear] noch für Kriegsteilnehmer des Ersten Weltkrieges. Das muss man sich bitte einmal vorstellen, in dem Jahr nämlich 1935 bin ich aus der Hitlerjugend ausgetreten, wir mussten unsere Wohnung verlassen und aus [unclear] Gründen, wir mussten umziehen in ärmliche Verhältnisse, ich musste das Gymnasium verlassen weil wir das Schulgeld nicht bezahlen konnten und mein Vater wurde hier noch als Matrose, obwohl er Nautiker war, bei einer Jüdischen Reederei noch einigezeit [unclear]. Uns ging es dann wirtschaftlich ganz schlecht in dieser Zeit zwischen 1935, November zwischen ‚35 und ’38. Mein Vater ist dann etwa fünf Wochen später nämlich um Weihnachten herum aus’m Konzentrationslager entlassen worden, er kam dann wieder nachhause aber in diese ärmliche Wohnung und er war dann aber seelisch zusammengebrochen. Er hatte keine [unclear] mehr und ist ein Jahr später zuhause, nämlich im Dezember 1939 verstorben. Ich war dann inzwischen also Soldat geworden. Die Geschichte meines Soldatenseins die haben ich ihnen ja glaub ich schon einmal vorgetragen. Hier ist das.
PS: Ja, ich habe dann noch andere drei Fragen für sie.
WS: Ja bitte.
PS: Die erste ist, hat mit dem Episode bei der sie abgeschossen worden sind, am 11-12 mai 1944.
WS: Ja?
PS: Wenn sie mir das ein bisschen besser erzählen konnen, mit ein Paar Einzelheiten.
WS: Ja, wir sind abends von Köln und zwar nach [unclear] um 10 Uhr etwa mit einer Junkers 88, das ist eine zweimotorige Maschine die es auch in einer Nachtjagd Version gab mit Suchgeräten also [unclear]Geräten ausgestattet und entsprechend bewaffnet. Mit [unclear] Brussel – Kanalküste in dieser Nacht mit Einflügen zu rechnen ist und zwar mit Einflügen der Briten mit vorwiegend Halifax und Lancaster, Lancaster vor allen Dingen, die in dem Raum Brüssel-Leopold [unclear] Bomben werfen würden auf Eisenbahnknotenpunkte, das ganze war warscheinlich schon im Vorfeld der Invasion so gedacht das unser Nachschub gestört werden sollte. In diesem Raum zwischen Brüssel und der Kanalküste bin ich dann hin und her geflogen und warscheinlich, in etwa zwischen fünf und sechs tausen Meter höhe, und warscheinlich bei dieser Gelegenheit in einer Richtung und auch zu lange das war also der Grund das mich eine Mosquito in ihrem Funkbordgerät aufnahm, mich verfolgte ohne das ich es wusste, mit meiner Besatzung, wir waren Flugzeugführer, Funker und Mechaniker. Die schossen dann eine Salve von unten nach oben in mein linkes Triebwerk, in den linken Motor und der brannte sofort, das war eine richtige Stichflamme, wir gerieten ins Truddeln, wir sind alle drei aber durch die Bodenlucke ausgestiegen und mit Fallschirm unten gelandet, ein bisschen [unclear] aber doch lebend runtergekommen und sind dann in Brussel-Evere das [unclear] unser Flugplatz [unclear] quasi hingebracht. Das war noch die erweiterte Geschichte meines Abschusses und, aber das ist das bemerkenswerte und da will ich sie bitten wenn sie mich mal in Hamburg besuchen mich daran zu erinnern. Ich habe hier im Flur liegen von einem Holländischen Historiker ist das vollbracht worden die Abschussgeschichte [unclear] Report dieser Mosquitobesatzung habe ich hier in Englisch, die mich damals abgeschossen hat. Und wir waren, meine Frau und ich, wir waren 1980 glaube ich, auf Grund dieser Unterlagen hatten wir Kontakt noch mit einer Witwe die Mosquito [unclear] Flugzeugführer und Navigator und mit der Witwe des Navigators, ein Mike Allen, der war inzwischen verstorben, haben meine Frau und ich in Plymouth noch einen Nachmittag verbracht bei einem sehr guten Gespräch. Das ist wohl die Geschichte meines Abschusses.
PS: Ja, dann noch eine Frage zum, zu dem Thema, sie haben gesagt das als sie flogen, da zielten sie auf die Motoren und nicht auf die Besatzungen.
WS: Ja, es war ja unsere Absichten die Maschinen abzuschiessen und sie daran zu hindern, das ist ja die Logik eines solchen Krieges, darann zu hindern das diese Engländer, diese bösen Briten, bösen [unclear] wenn die unsere Städte zerbombten und in Brand warfen und wir griffen nachts in der Regel ja von unten nach oben an. Wir hatten zwei 2cm Kannonen die schräg nach oben schossen, weil man nachts wenn die Erde dunkel ist von unten nach oben besser sieht [unclear] als von oben nach unten. Da wurde also [unclear] angegriffen und wenn man die [unclear] erkannte überall, die Lancaster hatte ja so eine Spannweite von etwa [unclear] meter wenn man die also erkannte [unclear], dann schoss man auf eine der beiden Tragflächen, wo die Triebwerke sassen, die Lancaster hatte ja vier Triebwerke, auf jeder Seite zwei und [unclear] auf diese [unclear] da schoss man [unclear] war wieder nicht, [unclear] herunter, und [unclear] auch am schnellsten, dass die Besatzung dann eventuell da noch heraus kam, [unclear] noch eine Chance [unclear] oder was abgeschossen wurden. Und auf die Art und Wiese habe ich ja diesen Peter Hinchliffe von den ich schon mal sprach, aus Canterbury haben wir mal kennengelernt bei einem Fliegertreffen das war also einer der, ein Navigator eines Halifax-bombers der ich glaube 1942 war das, [unclear] Köln abgeschossen wurde und am Fallschirm heil unten ankam. Den Namen von Peter Hinchliffe hatte ich ihnen schon genannt.
PS: Ja. Ich habe dann noch genauer gesagt zwei Fragen für sie und dann möchte ich sie nicht länger.
WS: Ja, bitte.
PS: Das erste hatt mit ihrer Gefangenschaft bei den Amerikanern zu tun. Wenn sie mir dass ein bisschen so erzählen können, Einzelheiten wenn sie noch..
WS: Ach ja, das, [laughs] das ist eine Sache für sich. Ich wurde versetzt im Herbst ‚44 im Osten, ich war noch bei der Nachtjagd, zwar in einer Nachtjagdeinheit die die letzten Kriegsmonate und Wochen in Wiener Neustadt und genau in Linz stationiert war. Also ein Gebiet das in April bereits zu Österreich gehöre, wir nannten das ja noch Ostmark, bereits weitgehend von Amerikanern besetzt war. Die Amerikaner kamen von Salzburg im Süden, sie kamen von Passau im Westen und die Russen kamen [unclear] von Wien St. Pölten an die Enns. Der Fluss Enns, der Fluss zwischen Linz und Steyr war die zwischen Amerikaner und Russen vereinbarte Demarkationslinie in Österreich in der damaligen Zeit. Und wir waren mit einer Einheit die hatten noch zwölf Maschinen oder elf Maschinen in Linz und es kam ein Befehl der Luftwaffe, das war ein General Feldmarschal von Greim, der letzte Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe, der sämmtliche Kurierflugzeuge, das sind die [unclear] sogenannten „Fieseler Störche“. Jede unserer Gruppen hatte [unclear] ein Fieseler Storch und diese Fieseler Störche sollten an einen Ort Niederlindach zusammengesetzt werden aus welchen Gründen auch immer und ich war noch [unclear] fuhrer denn ich bekam von meinem Chef Major Zorner den Auftrag mit meinen Fieseler Storch zu einem bestimmten Ort zu fliegen und an diesem Ort, Niederlindach hiess der, habe ich [unclear] gefunden, das ein Sammelplatz sein sollte für die Fieseler Störche. Meine Frau hatte einen Arbeits[unclear]lager in Bregenz am Bodensee und da kamen die Franzosen und sie war schon einige Tage bei mir und ich konnte sie in diesen Fiesel Storch mit an Bord nehmen und so flogen wir beide am 3 Mai ’45, also fünf Tage vor der offiziellen Kapitulation, an einem Dorf bei Steyr bei einem Bauer auf der Wiese mit diesem Fieseler Storch gelandet und so habe ich den Krieg auf eine Lichtung beendet. Am 8 Mai, am 7 Mai kamen die Amerikaner und ich war ja dann inzwischen im Zivil und die Amerikaner haben alle Männer zwischen zwanzig und vierzig etwa dann nach einigen Tagen einkassiert und wir mussten in ein Gefangenenlager marschieren. Dieser Fussmarsch passierte dann auch in der Dämmerung und da bin ich den weggelaufen, da bin ich also entflohen und bin dann gezielt in das Dorf und habe einige Nächte dort im Wald neben den übernachtet. Und nun kommt etwas ganz interessantes. Die Amerikaner hatten offenbar in dieser Gegend logistische Probleme weil die Demarkationslinie, der Fluss Enss zwischen Linz und Steyr eben die Grenze war, die die Amerikaner auf der einen Seite und die Russen auf der anderen Seite nicht überschreiten durften, eben als Demarkationslinie. Das führte dazu das auf der Österreichischen, also auf der Amerikanischen Seite, der Verkehr sich derartig stark verdichtet hatte, mit Panzern und sonstigen Fahrzeugen, das die Amerikaner in dieser Gegend froh waren, jedem Soldaten den sie da aufgabelten die natürlich auch alle schon zivil anhatten, Deutsche Soldaten in ein [unclear]Entlassungslager zu führen, das heisst im Steyr gab es eine Einrichtung wo die Ex-soldaten hingehen konnten und sie wurden, wenn die nicht mehr SS waren, dort entlassen. Sie bekamen eine „D 2-Schein“ das ist dieser berühmte Entlassungsschein. Man wurde untersucht ob man nicht der SS angehört hatte, die hatten ja so eine Tattowierung, man wurde untersucht das man keine Kopfläuse hatte und so weiter und am Ende der Prozedur war man denn entlassen. So bin ich auf diese Art und Weise von den Amerikanern später sogar offiziell entlassen worden. Und konnte dann später, da gab es ja noch einige Umstände, konnte dann später in etwa ende Juli, Anfang August mit meiner Frau auf abenteurlichen Wegen nach Hause fahren. Meine Frau ist in [unclear] zu hause und ich bin in Hamburg zu hause und ich konnte also auch meine Mutter denn im August in meine Arme schliessen und habe am ersten November ‚45, am ersten November ‚45, mein Frau denn also geheiratet. Das ist die Geschichte meiner Gefangenschaft.
PS: Ich fand den letzten Teil sehr rührend, muss ich sagen.
WS: Ich habe sehr viel Glück gehabt.
PS: Ja.
WS: Und Österreich war offenbar bei den Amerikanern irgendwie anders behandelt als das, als im übrigen Deutschen Reich weil Österreich ja mal als [unclear] von Hitler einverleibt wurde und man hat sich den Österreichischen Bevölkerung gegenüber warscheinlich etwas tolleranter verhalten als der übrigen Deutschen Bevölkerung und davon habe ich profitiert weil die Amerikaner ja keine Ahnung hatten das ich ein Hamburger bin und kein Österreicher.
PS: Interessant. Ich habe jetzt nur noch eine Frage für sie.
WS: Ja bitte.
PS: Ehm, es hat, es geht ein bisschen zurück auf das was ich sie das letzte mal gefragt hatte, aber es das war eben um das zu stärken. Über ihre pazifistische Einstellung nach dem Krieg. Das sie mir das noch ein bisschen wieder mal ein bisschen erzählen. Und ihre Einstellung zu den Briten.
WS: Ich bin nach hause gekommen, das sagte ich ja vorher schon, und das Gefühl, das [unclear] Gefühl das wir damals hatten, das war weit verbreitet, war ein Gefühl der Erleichterung, ein Gefühl der Erleichterung weil der Krieg nun zu Ende war, es fielen keine Bomben mehr, es wurden keine Menschen mehr getötet, das [unclear] war vorbei und dieses Gefühl war [unclear] Gefühl. Auf der anderen Seite hatte man dann natürlich auch in Hamburg [unclear] Trümmer, das Leben war viel primitiv, auch die Wohnung meiner Mutter war ausgebombt, wir wurden also sehr [unclear] in der ersten Zeit. Ich hatte noch keinen Beruf erlernt da ja der Krieg dazwischen kam und 1947 wurde eine Volkszählung für die Britische Besatzungszone, das war eben in der Amerikanischen Besatzungszone auch so, eine Volkszählung durchgeführt und an dieser Volkszählung habe ich dann teilgenommen. Und diese Teilnahme an dieser Volkszählung war zugleich mein Übergang zu einer Beschäftigung in unserer Universität in Hamburg, in der Hamburgischen Universität und da habe ich mich beruflich weiterbilden können und war im Laufe der Jahre, das war natürlich ein ganz [unclear], wurde ich Leiter der Personalabteilung an der Universität in Hamburg und wurde später dann ab 1968 das waren dann meine 15 Berufsjahre, wurde ich dann Verwaltungsleiter des Universitätskrankenhauses Hamburg-Eppendorf, das ist ein ganz grosses Klinikum mit über 5000 Beschäftigten [unclear] Sanität [unclear]. Da war ich also dann Verwaltungsleiter und bin dann 1981 pensioniert worden. Und habe dann mit meiner Frau, inzwischen waren Kinder geboren, habe mit meiner Frau mir einen Megakarawan gekauft und wir sind 18 Jahre lang nach meiner Pensionierung, im Herbst [unclear] gefahren durch Frankreich, nach Nordafrika, oder über den Italienischen Stiefel, nach Sizilien, nach Tunesien, 18 Jahre lang haben wir, im Winter eher dort unten unser Reisen [unclear] verbracht. Von diesen Erinnerungen haben ich viele Photographien gemacht, Photos gemacht, von diesen Erinnerungen [unclear] heute noch ein bisschen. Und heute bin ich mit, ich werde im nächsten Jahr 98 so Gott will und heute bin ich noch in der Zeitzeugenbörse, ich gehe in die Schulen, halte Vorträge, beantworte Fragen undsoweiter, über die Nazi Zeit und so, und versuche den Jungen Menschen beizubringen und ihnen [unclear] wie wichtig es doch ist, das die Menschen hier in Europa in Frieden leben und am Beispiel Deutschland ist es ja noch viel das Dank der [unclear] nach 1945, Marshall Plan, [unclear] Union, Wiedervereinigung undsoweiter, das hier hierzurzeit mehr al 72 Jahre hier in Europa, dank dieses Europas, mit unseren unmittelbaren neunen Nachbarn in Frieden leben. Das ist eine Zeitspanne die es für Deutschland in seiner Geschichte in dieser Menge noch nie gegeben hatt. So, da haben sie es. Sind sie noch da?
PS: Ja ja, ich bin noch hier, ja.
WS: Ach ja.
PS: Ja. Also, ich würde jetzt Schluss machen und immerhin ich verbleibe mit ihnen das ich ihnen das Material schicke und das wir noch in Kontakt bleiben.
WS: Ja, das wäre sehr schön.
PS: Und ich hoffe das es die Möglichkeit geben wird, das ich sie besuchen kann. Und, ja, Ich danke ihnen erst recht herzlich mal noch einmal für ihre Zeit und für ihre Geduld.
WS: Ach ja, keine Ursache und wenn sie mal nach Hamburg kommen, dann kommen sie bei mir vorbei, ich habe wie gesagt einen ganzen Akten Unterlagen in Englischer Sprache, also aus Englischen Berichten der 141 [unclear] Group, das ist eine Mosquito Gruppe gewesen und da sind die [unclear] worden. Da habe ich die Unterlagen unter dessen Umständen abgeschossen hat. Die können sie kopieren und die würde ich [unclear]. Wenn sie nach Hamburg kommen.
PS: Danke, danke, vielen Dank.
WS: Gut.
PS: Jetzt erstmal sehr vielen Dank von seiten des ganzen Bomber Command International Archive und wir werden in Kontakt bleiben.
WS: Ich hätte noch, ich hätte nie gedacht das ich mit einem Menschen der diesen [unclear] des Bomber Command vertritt irgend noch in [unclear] weise mich unterhalten kann. Das Bomber Command, das Britische war ja, als wir damals Krieg hatten, ein Rotes Tuch für uns, logischerweise. Wir waren ja Feinde. Und jetzt sind wir, Gott sei dank, sind wir alle in einem Gut.
PS: Ja.
WS: Und haben Frieden und hoffentlich bleibt dieser Frieden erhalten.
PS: Ja, hoffen wir, ja. Noch vielen Dank.
WS: Ja bitte, gern geschehen.
PS: Ich verabschiede mich jetzt bei ihnen und wir melden uns dann. Alos, das Projekt meldet sich dann und schickt ihnen alles.
WS: Gut.
PS: Vielen Dank und ich wunsche ihnen noch einen schönen Abend.
WS: Gern geschehen. Schönen Abend wünsche ich ihnen noch. Auf Wiedersehen.
PS: Tschüss, Auf Wiedersehen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wilhelm Simonsohn
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Fighter planes
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Wilhelm Simonsohn remembers his wartime service as a Luftwaffe night fighter pilot. He tells of his adoption by a Jewish family, and the discovery of his father’s background after being lampooned as ‘Jewish scum’ at school. He emphasises family hardships as a consequence of the racial policy of Nazi Germany. He describes how his father, despite being a recipient of a First World War medal, was deported to Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg Concentration Camp and later released. He tells how he used to fire at the engines of British aircraft in flight over Belgium so as to give aircrew a chance to bail out. He recounts being shot down by a Mosquito while patrolling the airspace between Belgium and the Channel coast whilst on the lookout for Lancaster and Halifax bombers. He remembers events at the end of the war: his unit being posted near Linz in Austria; being ordered to ferry a Fieseler Storch to a small airfield; being taken prisoner and later freed by American troops. He stresses his relief of now being on good terms with his former foes, something hitherto unthinkable.
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-04
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:33:08 audio recording
Language
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deu
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Belgium
Austria
Austria--Linz
Germany--Sachsenhausen (Brandenburg)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASimonsohnW170812
anti-Semitism
bale out
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
Mosquito
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/77/743/ABianchiM170912.2.mp3
940260dfe1038700f8c517f3d4264697
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bianchi, Marisa
Marisa Bianchi
M Bianchi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marisa Bianchi who recollects her wartime experiences in Sesso and in the Reggio Emilia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bianchi, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FC: Questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Marisa Bianchi. L’intervistatore è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Sesso, provincia di Reggio Emilia, è il 12 settembre 2017. Possiamo cominciare. Allora, la prima domanda che ti faccio è cosa ti ricordi di quando eri piccola, cioè.
MB: Avevo otto anni allora, ero piccola davvero.
FC: Cosa faceva la tua famiglia? Dove vivevi? Avevi fratelli?
MB: Vivevamo sempre a Sesso, fratelli non ne ho perché c’ho una sorella.
FC: Ecco.
MB: Eravamo, stavamo vendemmiando, arriva Pippo e noi giù, tutti nel fosso, gaemo un fosso. Ha cominciato a mitragliare, ha tagliato tutte le gambe degli scaletti. Per fortuna che c’era la bonifica che ha riparato le schegge. Se non morivam tutti quanti, da bom. Eh ohi. E poi abbiamo avuto anche che na volta han preso, ste Pippo, la bonifica, sai c’eravamo la bonifica in fondo ai nostri campi, l’avevamo presa per la stazione, per la ferrovia che era dietro la casa dell’altro contadino. Han mollè na bomba, guarda, non ti dico, ah, è successo la malora, tutti i vetri crollati.
FC: Della vostra casa.
MB: Tutti, anche quelli dell’altro contadino, davvero c’era venuto un buco che l’era enorme.
FC: E voi dove vi eravate nascosti?
MB: Noi eravamo nascosti in casa, dove che possiamo nascosti? Non c’avevamo mica il rifugio o cose del genere.
FC: Non ce n’erano lì?
MB: No, in campagna cosa vuoi che sia. Mamma mia, Gesù, e poi noi abbiamo avuto i tedeschi in, sai che, tu a Sesso non ci sei mai stata. E’ dove abitavamo prima, adesso è un casino che non si capisce più niente, ma avevamo un bosco.
FC: Ah.
MB: E la sera erano tutti messi coi carri armati, le camionette, tutti sotto lì. E avevamo i comandanti che allora vivevano nella villa e i soldati vivevano su nel fienile. [unclear] sta mattina doveva fare il pane. Davano la roba a loro, eh. La farina, portavano tutto facevano presto loro! Andavano a casa dei contadini, prendevano quello che volevano. E star matene e sai come fa il pane che c’era la, daghe l’amleri in poche parole. E io che, ero già, avevo già la lingua lunga allora, volete il pane? Giù alla mattina alle cinque a gramolare, [unclear] pan. [unclear] E il [unclear] c’aiutavo io ma loro s’arrangiavano sai. No eh guarda, noi li abbiamo avuti per quaranta giorni però son stati perfetti eh, a posto. Solo un giorno che due hanno cominciato a litigare e a sparè in elta e il comandante le [unclear] li ha spediti tutt via, li ha spediti in guerra, al fron in poche parole.
FC: Ah.
MB: Se no guarda, è solo che dopo, quando sono partie il 24 di aprile che sono poi morti tutti al Po, perché loro credendo di essere al Po, di essere già fuori ma è mort tutt al Po, eh. Marino ha preso via la scala del fienile, guai a chi va su. Sono venuti i carabinieri, hann raccolto due ceste così di bombe a mano, proiettili, sai, loro dormivano su nel fienile.
FC: E non c’erano più però. Erano scappati.
MB: No, no, erano già andati.
FC: Il 24.
MB: Il, loro sono andati via il 24. Pensando che, di arrivare al Po e di essere già fuori. Invece i mort nel Po. Han detto, eh, perché ovviamente, al Po non ci sono stata comunque l’han detto. Fat na brutta fine. Però erano maledetti. Nel senso che loro andavano nel confronto degli altri. E serviva la carne, andavano a prendere dal contadino un vitello senza pagarlo. Lo uccidevano nel nostro prato, ed era pena quel giorno, ma guarda un po’ che roba. Noi non abbiamo mai fatto la fame perché c’hann sempre dato tutto. Io ho fatto la cresima che quelle fotografie lì le deve avere ancora tua madre, che una volta la rileghi e ci porto vi l’album perché mi ha promesso che me le stampava e non me le ha ancora stampate.
FC: Va bene.
MB: Fatto la cresima. Sai quante scatole di cioccolata? Loro avevano la cioccolata in scatola i tedeschi.
FC: Eh. E te le hanno date?
MB: Orche!
FC: Perché sapevano che avevi fatto la cresima.
MB: Che ho fatto la cresima, la cresima.
FC: E quindi loro.
MB: No, no, guarda, son stati buoni, buoni, mai successo niente. Solo un giorno sti due cretini han litigato, uno ha sparato in alto.
FC: E ce n’erano di partigiani lì intorno? Ti ricordi qualcosa?
MB: Ma io ho ott’ann, cosa vuoi che mi ricordi?
FC: Ah non lo so, magari.
MB: Mi ricordo che dicevano che si erano nascosti nei campi e me sai, a otto anni che cavolo vuoi che sapessi. Io mi ricordo quelli lì i tedeschi perché avevo sempre avu per ca’ per quaranta giorni. Se no i partigiani sapevo che c’erano però a Sess non so mia se n’era, se c’erano a Sesso proprio, mah non lo so, quello non lo so.
FC: Ma, ehm, ti chiedo questa cosa qua. Ti ricordi quando è iniziata la guerra proprio? Cioè prima non c’era la guerra e dopo è iniziata.
MB: E dopo c’era la guerra.
FC: Ti ricordi quel momento lì? Cosa facevi? Andavi a scuola?
MB: Andavo a scuola, sì, sì.
FC: Dove andavi a scuola?
MB: Allora, avevano occupato la scuola. Allora mio padre e degli altri papà han preso su in soffitta in casa di un contadino, ci si portava la mattina con due pezzi di legno per uno per scaldarsi. E così che noi non abbiamo perso l’anno, hai capito? E quelli che non sono venuti hanno perso l’anno. Nella scuola con due pezzi di legno per uno, poi c’erano una di quelle stufette sai la Becchi come si chiamavano sì, la Becchi e noi li avevamo in casa la Becchi. C’erano nelle camere ve’. Era la villa padronale, c’era una nella camera della nonna, una, meno che nella mia e di tua madre. Alla mattina, se ti alzavi la notte a far la pipì, era ghiacciata, ve’. Era, perché noi avevamo proprio la camera a nord. Di andare a dormire col prete poi tiravi via, andavi sotto. Invece nella camera della nonna e quella della Iona c’era la Necchi, la Becchi, quelle stufette sai a piani.
FC: E a scuola parlavate della guerra?
MB: Oh, chi si ricorda.
FC: Non ti ricordi?
MB: Non mi ricordo.
FC: E se, non so.
MB: Mi ricordo solo che mi portava il papà con la bicicletta in canna, e che c’era sta borsa con due pezzi di legno da portare per scaldarci lassù perché eravamo su in soffitta. Però la guerra chi se la ricorda più. Sai, a parte che ero piccola, perché è finita la guerra che nel ’40?, ‘45, mi sono del ‘36, fa un po’ te i cunt, avevo nove anni.
Fc: Eh beh, però mi stai raccontando delle cose.
MB: Sì, ho capito, però certe cose non te le ricordi. Per esempio nella notte, la notte del 23-24, c’hann detto i tedeschi: ‘andate via, in mezzo alla campagna!’. Siamo andati a casa di un contadino, noi e tutta la famiglia intorno. Alla mattina il nonno voleva andare a vedere perché sai c’era le mucche da mungere così. Invece Nino, il figlio della Wilma, ha detto ci vado io perché vado più svelto a correre. L’hanno ucciso poco distante da casa.
FC: Chi l’ha ucciso?
MB: I tedeschi e i fascisti di Sesso.
Fc: Ah ecco.
MB: Sì, è il 24 aprile. E Il 25 ghe stè la liberazion, e lui avev disdott ann. Diciotto anni aveva. A fam, no zio ci vado io che corro corro più veloce, faccio prima ad andare a vedere cosa c’è. Loro erano già partiti, tutti quanti, le rivè a un poc distan da ca non so quanto. La casa più vicino l’hanno visto quando l’hanno ucciso. L’hann fatto mettere in ginocchio e [mimics shooting noise], gli hann sparè. E pensa che c’era uno di Sesso, che sua figlia abita sopra tua mamma, nell’attico. E una volta ha trovato la mamma di quella ragazza lì, lei è già morta perché aveva un tumore al seno, e ora ci siamo trovati lì giù, io c’ho chiesto delle sue figlie perché andavamo a scuola assieme con una cosa. La disi: ‘cosa vuoi che ti dica?’, la disi: ’è proprio vero’, la dis che le malefatte dei vecchi si sono rivoltate contro i figli. C’era morto già la figlia lì, morto il figlio con un tumore,
FC: Mamma mia.
MB: Sì, proprio mamma mia.
FC: Ehm, volevo provare a richiederti ancora se ti ricordi altre volte che è venuto Pippo, cioè cosa si diceva di Pippo?
MB: Quando arrivava Pippo tutti sparivano, sparivano tutti quanti.
FC: Veniva tutti i giorni?
MB: Tutti i giorni passeva su ma tanta [unclear] ciapè Pippo, ti dico. Sì, sì, guarda che una volta, non so della via, ha buttato delle bombe dove, e a noi ci sono crollati tutti i vetri un’altra volta. C’era la Lidia, la figlia della Ione, la sorella della Mirella, aveva avuto la difterite ed era già in convalescenza, lo spavento, la paura, l’è morta sul colpo. Aveva cinque anni, sì. Sai che solo la Mirella, ce n’erano già morti due, e tre con la Lidia ne g’avu quattre. Perché una era nata quando sono nata io, io sono nata la mattina e lei era nata al pomeriggio di sette mesi solo che in quei tempi lì! E sì, Pippo l’era maledetto eh. Non ti so dire se era inglese o se era americano, ste Pippo.
FC: E tu lo sapevi perché faceva così?
MB: Ma cosa pe de che, faceva, passava e mitragliava.
FC: Cosa pensavi di Pippo?
MB: Ciapa tante [unclear], ho pase tante di quelle paure a noi, sai c’avevamo il portico prima della stalla e c’eran le arcate. Le avevamo riempite tutte di paglia, le balle sai. L’ha fat na mitraglieta, per fortuna che non hanno preso fuoco. Aveva riempito le balle di proiettili. E quand [unclear] sai Marino le apriva poi dopo, poi si usavano, no, saltavano fora come i cosi.
FC: I proiettili.
MB: Sì. Che lur sa chissà cosa si credeva che fossero, c’era, sai nelle arcate tutte ste balle di paglia. Bel Pippo!
FC: E quindi cosa, cosa facevate quando arrivava Pippo?
MB: Eh, ci si nascondeva dove si poteva.
FC: E ti avevano spiegato cosa fare?
MB: Si andava in cantina, si scendeva nei posti più chiusi. Non c’era un rifugio, non c’era niente e non. E infatti i tedeschi avevano messo tutte le balle di, di paglia contro le finestre dentro per paura che Pippo passasse e mitragliasse. E la mess tutte le balle di paglia.
FC: E passava di giorno o di notte Pippo?
MB: Passava a qualunque orario, non c’era preoccuparsi, mattina, pomeriggio, notte.
FC: Tutti i momenti.
MB: E la notte, caro mio, si metteva la luce si metteva sopra perchè sta su un po’ unita perché le vedeva lui quelle luci accese di notte. C’era così, la vita là di quei tempi lì.
FC: E quando stavate nascosti, no?
Mb: Eh.
FC: Cosa facevate? Come passavate il tempo?
MB: A parlare.
FC: Parlare. Anche te.
MB: Sì eh.
FC: E c’erano altri bimbi?
MB: Sì, c’era altri bimbi, quelli di quella signora che abitava nel nostro cortile, ma sì ma si univa tutti eh. Mamma mia.
FC: E facevate dei giochi per distrarvi?
MB: No, no, no, stavem tut là, a tremare dalla paura perché.
FC: Avevate paura?
MB: Ah Madonna, se avevamo paura. Perché aveva fatto, buttato ste bombe nel prato di quell’altra famiglia che aveva preso la ferrovia per la bonifica. [unclear] un buso enorme. E sai, se ti buttano una così sulla casa, [makes a whistling sound]. Ma quella volta lì, quella mitragliata degli scaletti, tut dentro al foss.
FC: Eravate tutti a vendemmiare.
MB: Tutti a vendemmiare eravamo.
FC: E come avete fatto a capire che era.
MB: Allora, sintu arriver e allora giù, tutti nel fosso.
FC: Tutti nel fosso.
MB: E lui ha cominciato a mitragliare, a tagliare tutte le gambe degli scaletti. E per fortuna che poi dopo le schegge si sono fermate contro il coso della bonifica perché noi eravamo più bassi e la bonifica era più alta. Si fermedi tutti là, se no. E per fortuna che nel fosso non c’era acqua, perché sai era uno di quei fossi che si riempivano d’acqua, eravamo in settembre. L’acqua non c’era più, ma che usavano a annaffiare tutti i campi, tutti i cosi. Guarda che l’altro giorno venivo da casa da Reggio con Rico e [unclear], Rico, ti ricordi te, ma le e fa Rico, hai ancora in mente? Oh, se l’ho ancora in mente, porca miseria, altroché. La paura!
FC: Quella storia qua.
MB: Sì, quella storia lì della vendemmia e degli scaletti. E dopo [unclear] fer tutti i gambe nuve di scalette eh. Quelle cose lì, se, adesso non lo so ma se le ricordava anche tua mamma, tua nonna, la Laura.
FC: E tu te lo ricordi cosa faceva la Laura? Cosa, te la ricordi la Laura a quei tempi lì?
MB: La Laura aveva dodici anni più di me sicché lei aveva già più di vent’anni.
FC: E anche lei si nascondeva dove andavi tu?
MB: Anche lei. Sì, no, quando arrivava Pippo erano tutti unì, nelle cantine, nei posti, chissà, forse si pensava che fossero più sicuri, mah. Meno che nelle stalle perché le stalle sai eh, sono tutte esterne e ci si andava nelle cantine perché erano in mezzo alla casa, insomma, erano più. Beh sì, i tedeschi hanno proprio così.
FC: E i fascisti invece, cioè, ce ne giravano un po’? Li hai conosciuti,
MB: I fascisti erano schifosi.
FC: Te li ricordi?
MB: Sì che me li ricordo. Noi avevamo il cortile che guardava dritto alla cooperativa di Sesso. Noi sentivamo gli urli di quelli che torturavano, i fascisti.
FC: E cosa facevate, niente?
MB: Te fa [unclear]? Te scoltè o ti tappavi le orecchie. C’è uno che c’hann levato proprio tutte le unghie, tutti gli urli e poi l’hann stirato.
FC: Col ferro.
MB: Sì, col ferro. In cooperativa a Sesso.
FC: Tu sapevi, ti, tu cosa pensavi quando eri piccola di queste cose qua? Cioè, cosa.
MB: Che erano schifose.
FC: Sapevi che era, capivi perché c’era questa guerra, come funzionava la guerra?
MB: Capivi, capivi che c’era la guerra e basta.
FC: Nessuno ti aveva spiegato?
MB: No, neanche a scuola.
FC: Neanche a scuola. Non se ne parlava.
MBV: Eh, sì, sì! Noi sì, sentivamo urlare, gli urli, sai te tira via le unghie. Poi l’hann stirato bene poverino. Poi dopo sono andati nel prato, di quelli che ghe hann buttea la bomba. Ne hanno ucciso diciotto.
FC: Nello stesso posto dove era caduta la bomba?
MB: Sì, pochino più spostati ma i hann mazzè tutt.
FC: Perché?
MB: Erano partigiani proprio.
FC: Erano partigiani.
Mb: Tutti Manfredi, Miselli, tutti.
FC: E questo aereo che ha sganciato questa bomba, no?
MB: Era Pippo.
FC: Era Pippo, ma ne ha sganciate delle altre di bombe?
MB: Ne ha sganciate, non so dove, più in un altro posto ma sa sgancià solo quella lè.
FC: Solo una.
MB: Solo una. Mitragliet, quante mitragliet non so quante ne ha fatte, però una bomba l’ha butta sol quella lè. Finì la guerra dopo sono andati a riempire il buco, sai, tutti i contadini si sono uniti con cariole, con badili per riempire ste bus chel so mia quant temp e g’hann mess. Sì, n’è bella storia l’è quella li va’. Davvero eh. Noi al 25 aprile eravamo tutti nella curva di Sesso, sai, quando c’è la curva lì e g’era la co, la come si chiama, la bilancia quel che ci davano i carri a pesare, e riveva i american, venivano tutti da Cadelbosco. Insomma per noi venivano da Cadelbosco, poi non so da dove venissero. Comunque, mamma mia.
FC: E cosa successe il 25 Aprile?
MB: Niente, tutti a batterci le mani, contenti, perché eran sparì i tedeschi e ghe iera i americani.
FC: E gli americani cosa facevano?
MB: Niente, andavano, sono andati tutti a Reggio.
FC: Ah, sono solo passati.
MB: Sono solo passati.
FC: Non si sono fermati?
MB: No, no, no, no. Sono solo passati. Gli americani sono solo passati poi si sono fermati a Reggio. Si sono fermati a Reggio ma un giorno o due, poi sono proseguiti per Modena, Bologna, tutt.
FC: E quindi dopo che sono andati via i tedeschi dalla casa,
MB: Sì, sì.
FC: Voi siete rimasti lì?
MB: Sì, sì, noi siamo rimasti lì.
Fc: E cosa, come è funzionato il dopo? Cioè.
Mb: Eh, dopo ha ripreso la vita di prima di, che scoppiasse la guerra. Noi siamo rimasti nella villa perché eravamo nella casa vecchia. La padrona, lei è andà da stè a res, e noi avevamo preso la villa. C’era quattro camere da letto. Eran me, tua mamma e la Mirella, che dormivamo nella camera più fredda. E poi c’era la nonna e Marino in un’altra e l’altra l’aveva affittata a due sposini che erano poi i figli di quelli poi che erano venuti ad abitare nella casa vecchia. Poi anche lì si è ripreso la vita di prima.
FC: Tu hai ripreso ad andare a scuola?
MB: Eh sì, dopo a scuole s’è liberede. Allora ti voglio chiedere se sei fidanzata?
FC: No. [laughs] No, vedi che non è qua.
MB: Ah non, ah avevo sbagliato dito.
FC: Sì, sì, sì. Bene, allora, c’è qualcos’altro che ti viene in mente della guerra, qualcosa che mi vuoi raccontare?
MB: No, non mi
FC: Qualche emozione? Qualche, non so, qualche episodio legato, non so, a degli amici?
MB: No, sai com’è, eravamo.
FC: A cosa trovavate da mangiare?
MB: Ah noi, noi non abbiamo mai fatto la fame, no. Sai, i contadini non hanno mai fatto la fame. I contadini c’avevano tutto, i polli, conigli, c’avevamo tutte le uova. Fatto la fame erano quelli che. Guarda che hanno ucciso un ragazzo, ecco, quello, un ragazzo che andava a lavorare alla Reggiane allora. Era un fratello di una mia amica. Aveva sotto il braccio, aveva una mela e un cono, un pezzo di pane, era il suo pranzo. L’han sparè perché [unclear] gli una bomba sotto la braccio.
FC: E dove gli hanno sparato?
MB: A Sesso.
FC: Chi?
MB: I tedeschi.
FC: Così?
MB: Era il suo, il suo pranzo era, una mela e un pezzo di pane.
FC: Andava verso le Reggiane.
MB: Andava verso le Reggiane.
FC: Prima che le bombardassero quindi.
MB: [unclear]
FC: Quindi tu i bombardamenti che ci sono stati a Reggio di grossi non te li ricordi?
MB: No, non me li ricordo quelli lì, no.
FC: Non ne hai neanche sentito parlare, all’epoca?
MB: No, proprio no.
FC: Era proprio distante.
MB: Noi abitavamo a Sesso, sapevi quello che succedeva a Sesso. Fuori.
FC: Ah, beh, sì.
MB: So che hanno bombardato Reggio però non. Insomma, noi eravamo troppo lontani da Reggio. Hanno ucciso altre persone sull’argine del Crostolo, che andavano a lavorare anche loro a Reggio e facevano l’argine del Crostolo perché eran fuori nella via principale che [unclear] e li han ammassè sull’argine del Crostolo.
FC: Sempre i tedeschi.
MB: Sì. I fascisti hanno ucciso quegli altri quattro lungo la nostra strada. Facevi la curva e li hanno uccisi lì [unclear] la mateina.
FC: C’era la nonna che mi ricordo che mi diceva che a un certo punto c’era un morto. Avevano trovato un morto. Tu non te la ricordi questa cosa qua? Che in un fosso, in un angolo, da qualche parte, a Sesso hanno trovato sto morto, questa cosa non te la ricordi.
MB: Non me lo ricordo. Mi ricordo Nino, figlio della Wilma, il fratello di Enrico, che l’hann trovato in un fosso, in mezzo alla campagna, che l’hann massè lì. Disdott ann.
FC: Sarà quello lì.
Mb: Però altri non mi ricordo. Sai poi sono passati tanti anni che poi le cose.
FC: No, no, ma va bene. A noi, a me interessa sapere cosa ti ricordi. Cioè, non.
MB: Sì, no, ho capito ma certe cose poi dopo ti passano dalla mente, non te le ricordi più.
FC: Sì, sì, lo so.
MB: E’ passè per la miseria, sessantacinq’ann, ottant’ann, eh.
FC: Eh!
MB: Ti ricordi quello che hai vissuto in casa tua, avevi vissuto intorno, hai capito?
FC: Eh, quello, quello, quello a me interessa. Sì.
MB: Mamma mia.
FC: E tua mamma? Non ne hai parlato di lei? Come,
MB: Chi?
FC: La mamma.
MB: Ah, mia mamma? Ah, mia mamma era addetta al forno lei. Faceva.
FC: Era addetta al forno.
MB: Al forno, [unclear] pan per i tedeschi.
FC: E anche prima quindi lei faceva il pane spesso.
MB: Sì, noi l’abbiamo sempre fatto in casa il pane. Mi e me sorell [unclear] la mattena, una [unclear] gramler, eh sai,
Fc: Cosa vuol dire esattamente gramlere?
MB: Allora, c’è un’affare lungo così. C’è un’asta che lì ci va, ci va, perché alla sera lo mettono nella malia, poi lo mettono con il coso, mamma mia come si chiama, aiutami te,
FC: Il lievito.
MB: Il lievito. La farina, lo impastano, poi lo lasciano lì tutta la notte, poi la mattina lo prendono, poi lo mettono sotto a ste aste. Poi ce n’era, andava su poi giù veniva un bastone c’erano due maniglie e lì lo gramolavi. Ciameva gramlera.
Fc: Lo schiacciavi.
MB: Schiacciavi e mia madre era lì che lo girava, lo rigirava.
FC: Ah, lo rimpastava e dopo.
MB: Sì, sì, lo rimpastava tutto.
FC: Ah.
MB: Poi dopo c’era da fare il pane. Poi dopo che aveva finito di fare, di aver cotto il pane, facevamo il gnocco.
FC: Ah.
MB: Col bastone, bei [unclear] di rame.
FC: Ah. Col lardo?
MB: Col lardo, eh. E veniva buono, eh.
FC: [laughs]
MB: Quello me lo ricordo.
FC: Quello sì, eh.
MB: Sì.
FC: Eh. Ma non c’era, visto che voi stavate bene, insomma, che avevate da mangiare, non c’era gente che veniva lì e vi chiedeva da mangiare? Non c’era qualche sfollato?
MB: Ma noi. Eh, ce li avevamo gli sfollati.
FC: Ah, raccontami un po’ degli sfollati.
MB: Eh, gli sfollati non hanno mai patì fame perché casa dei Bianchi, non era problema. Avevamo la.
FC: Da dove venivano questi sfollati?
MB: Da Reggio.
FC: Da Reggio. E cosa dicevano loro?
MB: Che cosa vuoi che dicessero?
FC: Come erano? Chi erano? Grandi? Vecchi? Piccoli?
MB: No, no, non avevano, no, non erano vecchi perché c’era un signore che aveva un bambino piccolo, quel ga avu du, tre anni. Era coi parenti, ve’! Non eran, parenti della nonna. Stavano, dormivano nel garage.
FC: Dormivano nel garage. Quindi erano solo due?
MB: Marito e moglie con due bambini.
FC: Ah. E quanto tempo sono stati lì?
MB: Ah, fino alla fine della guerra.
Fc: Da quando, te lo ricordi?
MB: Ah, non me lo ricordo. Sono venuti a chiedere se c’era ospitalità, allora li hann messi lì.
FC: E quindi il bimbo piccolo più o meno aveva la tua età, o era più piccolo?
MB: No, era più piccolo di me.
FC: Era piccolino, piccolino. Ah, ok, ok.
MB: Sì, aveva due o tre anni, era piccolino. Invece la figlia, la figlia era più grande, forse la figlia avrà avuto qualche anno in meno di me. Comunque, ste [unclear] fin la fin de la guerra.
FC: Non ti ricordi se facevate dei giochi insieme, quali tipi di giochi facevi?
MB: Facevano la settimana, nascondino, tutte quelle cose lì. Perché poi sai non c’era tanto da giocare ve’, perché abbiamo avuto tanto tempo i tedeschi in cortile.
FC: I tedeschi non vi facevano giocare?
MB: Noi ci stavamo alla larga intanto. Perché per quanto non fossero gentili e carini, ie fem paura. E poi, ghe sempre Pippo sopra la testa.
FC: E quindi andavate a nascondervi.
MB: [unclear], mamma mia Pippo! Se avesse preso metà deigli accidenti [unclear]. Ma non so se era inglese o se era americano quel Pippo lì!
FC: Però sapevi che era uno buono o era uno cattivo? Cioè,
MB: Chi? Pippo?
FC: Pippo.
MB: L’era cattiv!
FC: Era cattivo.
MB: Perché dove si trovava buttava giù, mitragliava, la malora!
FC: Eh, però lo sai che gli inglesi e gli americani in teoria erano quelli buoni.
MB: In teoria non te lo so dire.
FC: No?
MB: Non te lo so dire.
FC: Erano i tedeschi quelli cattivi.
MB: Non so dire se era tedesco o se era inglese o americano. So che’l mitraglieva, butteva le bombe. Quando è crollato i vetri, che è morto pure la Lidia non so se è stato verso Verona, o più in qua di Verona, crolle, e ha bombardato proprio. [unclear] buttà zò una bomba un bel po’. E’ crollà tutti i vetri, lei dalla paura che ha avuto è ndeda. Era già in convalescenza. E ha avuto la difterite. [unclear] adesso eh. Aspetta che vado ad aprire un po’ il coso anche perché c’abbiamo ste zanzariere. E non passa l’aria.
FC: Va bene, io, intanto guarda, finiamo l’intervista perché secondo me se non ti, ormai non ti ricordi più niente.
MB: Ormai non ricordo più niente. No va bene, sai, caro mio.
FC: Va bene così.
MB: Ero piccola io.
FC: Hai detto delle cose interessanti comunque. Va bene. Va bene. Grazie mille allora.
MB: Niente. Grazie di che cosa? Sono cose di quelle cose che a rivangarli ti vengono in mente ancora, capisci?
FC: E certo, è per quello infatti che, funziona così l’intervista. Quindi questa cosa, ti ricordi ancora quelle sensazioni lì?
MB: Sì.
FC. Te li ricordi come se.
MB: Sì, sì, come se fosse successo oggi, o ieri. Mi ricordo poi quelle degli scaletti. Ti dico che l’altro giorno venivo a casa da Reggio con Rico. Allora gli dico, Rico ti ricordi quando eravamo a vendemmiare a dis, fa lo te lo ricordi ancora? La miseria, se me lo ricordo ancora. Sì, sì altro ché se me lo ricordo. E l’episodio che mi è rimasto più in mente capisci, che e quello lì di avere i tedeschi per quaranta giorni nel cortile. E nonostante che non fossero gentili, guarda che venivano, uccidevano il bestiame, ci portavano sempre la carne in casa, ve’. E che pena. Si guarda che un contadino lavora tutto l’anno poi van là e prendon su vitelli, prendon su una mucca, per mangiare loro non chiedevano il permesso, sai! E gnanca pagheve il [unclear].
FC: Però ne davano un po’ anche a voi.
MB: Sì, sì, sempre.
FC: E sai perché?
MB: Non so, si vede siamo loro ospiti e insomma. C’era poi, avevano il calzolaio, il sarto. Il calzolaio soleva scarpi a tutt, anche a noi.
FC: Tra i tedeschi? C’erano il calzolaio, il sarto.
MB: Il sarto, sì, sì.
FC: E faceva.
MB: Eh sì, ci solava le scarpe a tutti [laughs], sì, sì.
FC: Ah. Vedi. E c’erano altre figure tipo quelle.
MB: No, non mi ricordo, c’era, faceva da mangiare
FC: Eh, c’era un cuoco?
MB: C’era un cuoco.
FC: Quindi cucinavano loro per, loro?
MB: Sì, sì, cucinavano loro.
FC: Voi facevate solo il pane.
MB: Noi facevamo solo il pane. La prima, mi ricordo sempre che la prima volta che abbiam tirato fuori il pane, sai, il pane caldo, il profumo, venivano davanti ai vetri, mammi, mammi, chiamavano mammi. E allora dopo loro l’han chiesto, i capi l’han chiesto e me go det: ‘sì, ma vi alzate voi alla mattina a venire a gramler’, perché [unclear] assieme, lui si faceva il pane ogni otto giorni.
FC: Avevate il lievito, quello che.
MB: Ah, non te lo so dire che lievito che c’era.
FC: Quello che si teneva lì e poi lo rimescolavi con la farina e poi lo tenevi da parte.
MB: Sì, sì, sì, da parte, prendevi una madia , se c’era una madia che dentro era vuota, c’era quello che si faceva il pane, si impastava il pane.
FC: Ma che pane era? Era bianco o era scuro?
MB: No, era bianco, era buono. Altro che il pane d’adesso. E avevamo imparato anche a fare il pane, ve’. Con le manine. Adesso non sarei neanche più capace perché ciò questo e questo che sono dita a scatto.
FC: Ah, eh vabbè.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marisa Bianchi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Marisa Bianchi remembers her wartime years at Sesso, a rural hamlet in the Reggio Emilia province. Stresses the abundance of locally farmed food and emphasises how billeted German troops were friendly and supportive, even if she and her family had to work for them. Recalls "Pippo" coming over every day at the same time. Curses it for the fear it caused and describes two episodes connected with its menacing presence: being machine-gunned while working and the sight of her house under attack, an incident in which a relative died as the consequence of emotional shock. Explains her revulsion of Fascists, feared for their brutality and recollects the killing of her cousin on the last day of war. Describes wartime episodes: Fascists executing four partisans and torturing suspects; Germans shooting people on the Crostolo bank; a young worker being shot by mistake for carrying a bundle mistaken for a bomb. Recalls providing accommodation to evacuees from Reggio Emilia and the widespread enthusiasm at the end of the war.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-12
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Francesca Campani
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABianchiM170912
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Reggio Emilia
Format
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00:33:09 audio recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/PDelCortoD170926.1.jpg
8ebbe28b1ccd6245bf9526739b4de7d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/ADelCortoD170926.2.mp3
2a47a8d095d94f320118ecb51c25c2d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Del Corto, Delia
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Delia Del Corto who recollects her wartime experiences in Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DelCorto, D
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FC: Allora, questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Delia Del Corto. L’intervistatrice è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Viareggio, è il 26 Settembre 2017. Assiste all’intervista Elena Lencioni. Ok, grazie, grazie per quest’intervista, possiamo cominciare, no. Allora, come le stavo accennando prima, mi piacerebbe partire da tipo, quando è nata, dove è nata, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, prima della guerra, prima di iniziare a parlare della guerra. Se aveva fratelli, sorelle, tutto quanto.
DDC: Allora, io sono nata l’1.11.32.
FC: OK.
DDC: Allora, la famiglia era una famiglia grande perchè eravamo sei figli, il papà e la mamma, il nonno e la nonna, dieci persone. Avevamo la nostra casa, grazie a Dio, avevamo il nostro terreno, avevamo insomma, ecco. Il papà e il nonno erano falegnami, avevano una falegnameria. Poi c’avevo un fratello che faceva il verniciatore, poi ce n’avevo un altro [laughs], un altro invece che, come si può dire, era con lo zio Aldo quando era a lavorare ne, io non lo so come ci si chiamava insomma
EL: Ma, era un operaio.
DDC: Ma lavorava in, no, in un, come un ristorante o roba del genere. Ora non me lo ricordo bene,
EL: Sì, ah ok.
DDC: Non me lo ricordo bene però tra un altro e l’altro voglio dire, poi c’era lo zio Luigi che invece lui faceva il, era, avevano tutti qualcosa, lo zio Aldo faceva, ehm, come si dice
EL: Lavorava in un albergo.
DDC: Lavorava in un albergo però poteva fare anche l’imbianchino, poteva fare tante cose, fra l’altro, sono tante, infatti voglio dire, se mi concedeva di farmi un, così una panoramica e poi mi diceva magari ora facciamo sì ma insomma potevo. Dimmi qualcosa.
FC: Va benissimo così, va benissimo, noi, qualsiasi cosa si ricorda va bene. Non c’è problema.
EL: Ma dove, dove stavate voi?
FC: Esatto.
DDC: Si stava a Montemagno,
FC: OK.
DDC: Comune di Camaiore, il paesino Montemagno, lo sa no dov’è? Si abitava un pochino sopra così sopra il paese ma di poco, in cinque minuti s’arrivava e avevamo del terreno giù in paese, e avevamo tanto del terreno, c’era uliveto, c’era bosco, c’erano le vigne, c’era un popò di tutto ecco. Adesso ora io non so che posso di raccontarvi ecco. E in
FC: Sì, no, no, vada avanti pure.
DDC: Vuole sapere in tempo di guerra quello che
FC: Sì, sì. Va bene. Quello che si ricorda.
DDC: Eh, ma io non so quello che era tempo
FC: Lei si ricorda quando è iniziata la guerra?
DDC: Ero ragazzina, ora non so dire proprio il giorno preciso ma insomma che era scoppiata questa guerra e tutto quanto, anche nel paese voglio dire se ne parlava, poi ci fu da uscire di lì, andare, si portarono, c’avevamo le pecore, allora avevamo tutto il bestiame, c’erano le mucche perché nel paese così c’era, avevamo un pochino di tutto ecco, i nostri. E si portarono le pecore sopra Gombitelli, a, spetta come si chiama, al Ferrandino. Al Ferrandino, era proprio al tempo della guerra quella lì eh. Io ero ragazzina e lassù c’era andata la mia sorella più grande, insieme c’aveva portato il mi papà perché? Perché gli uomini, guai, erano sempre cercati lì, cosa [unclear], i tedeschi e allora andavano a dormire nel bosco lì per lì, per non farsi trovare e tutto quanto. Poi era una vita troppo difficoltosa. Ci si fece a attraversare la strada maestra perché lassù da dove si abita noi per andare a Gombitelli c’è da, c’è da scendere dalla casa dove abitiamo, c’è da scendere in paese e giù c’è la strada che fa Camaiore, che fa Valpromaro, che va a Lucca che va, ecco c’è la strada. Abbiamo attraversato la strada lì, siamo saliti su per il bosco, siamo andati, quando, no a Gombitelli, più su del Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, c’abbiamo portato le pecore perché? Perché in quel momento lì i tedeschi prendevino le mucche, prendevino le pecore, facevino d’ogni ben di dio, quel che gli veniva in mente. Allora per evitare, noi le nostre bestine, le nostre cose, insomma, abbiamo, le abbiamo portate lassù. Lassù ce le hann date alla zia Liliana, c’aveva portato il nonno Alberto, e io non ricordo più dello zio Virgilio perché se era andato lassù anche lui, se c’era andato non lo ricordo a dir la verità, a dir la verità. E io avevo diec’anni, avevo diec’anni e la nonna Ancilla era in stato interessante della zia Raffaella. Allora si partiva una volta per settimana, si faceva il pane in casa, casalingo perché lassù al nostro paese c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo tutto, si faceva il pane. E poi, dopo con quelle borse grandi, lunghe così si portava tutto, il pane alla sua, alla zia Liliana insomma, si portava lassù sopra Gombitelli. E io cercavo di aiutarli come meglio potevo ma ero una ragazzina, voglio dire, un po’ più mingherlina, insomma vabbè facevo del mio meglio. E ora che
EL: C’erano anche partigiani.
DDC: E c’erano anche partigiani, sì. E una volta, allora, la posso raccontare, quel discorso del partigiano che ci fu un incontro tra cosi e il partigiano fu ferito?
EL: Certo.
FC: Certo.
DDC: Eh, non so quel che vuole sapere [unclear].
FC: Queste cose qua.
DDC: Ecco. Allora in quel momento lì c’erino partigiani e c’erano i tedeschi, ora non ricordo la precisione dove erano questi tedeschi. Ci fu un incontro e s’incominciarono a tirare col cannone le cose con le mitragliatrici insomma e ci fu anche, ferirono un partigiano. Ferirono un partigiano, era lassù sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino anche lui, questo ragazzo. Allora non si sapeva come, non si sapeva, io ero ragazzina ma lo ricordo il discorso lì. E mi si diede, noi un lenzuolo fatto sul telaio, di quella tela grossa, la inchiodarono su du cosi, du
EL: Due assi. Assi.
DDC: Du assi inchiodarono questo coso, ci misero dentro questo coso ferito, questo ragazzo ferito e poi quattro donne di lassù, perché le stanghe del coso d’avertici nel mezzo l’ammalato erano due. Allora una donna di qui una donna di là, una di qui, una di là, quattro ragazze di lassù dal Ferrandino hanno portato questo povero ragazzo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Per la strada, siccome c’era dei posti di blocco, no? Allora questi tedeschi fermavano, ‘te, dove andare?’, facevano questo discorso qui, no. Allora questi ragazzi mi dicevino che non lo potevano scoprire perché questo ragazzo che era lì sulla portantina aveva un male che s’attaccava, sì, un male, come si chiama?
EL: La peste.
DDC: Come?
EL: La peste.
DDC: No, ma non era.
FC: Contagioso.
DDC: Contagioso, era un male contagioso. Digli così, loro avevino paura. E insomma, fu così che queste ragazze ce la fecero a portare questo ferito all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora però io di lì non so più nulla nel senso perché ero ragazzina, voglio dire, anche se se ne è parlato non lo ricordo. Insomma ce la fecero queste ragazze a portare questo giovanotto all’ospedale. E non c’era portantine, non c’era nulla, allora la mia sorella più grande gli diede un lenzuolo fatto da noi sul telaio che è bello robusto, lo inchiodarono su due aste lì di coso, ci misero questo ferito e quattro ragazze prese di lassù portarono questo. E per la strada c’erano i posti di blocco e mi dicevano: ‘te, dove andare?’, visto come fanno, facevano così i tedeschi e questo era coperto e mi dicevino: ‘io lo scopro però’ che aveva, non so che malattia dicevino che si raccattava, una malattia.
FC: Il tifo.
DDC: Tipo il tifo, un affare del genere. Loro avevino una paura, no, no, allora, come dì, andate via. Fatto sta che ce la fecero a portarlo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora lì cosa successe poi io non lo so perché poi, voglio dire, non si potevino sapè tutte le cose, a quell’ora lì insomma.
FC: Quindi in questo paesino c’era tanta gente che era scappata su sui monti al
DDC: Al Ferrandino?
FC: Eh.
DDC: Ora, lì dove eravamo, noi avevamo trovato, ma più che una, insomma era una casetta, na stanzina, du stanzine piccoline che accanto c’avevino perfino il bestiame. S’era trovato questo piccolo coso così, come si dice, quando si va, si cerca na casina di sfollati, quel che si può trovà, si può trovà, così.
EL: Gli altri dormivano nel bosco, no?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Altri dormivano nel bosco.
DDC: Altri dormivano nel bosco ma nel bosco io lassù, quando siamo andati lassù, non, quello non lo sapevo perché più in là c’erano partigiani insomma era, era una cosa così lassù. Allora, nel bosco io lo so bene che ci dormivano quando si abitava qui a casa nostra. A casa nostra anche il nonno Alberto ha dormito nel bosco come lo zio Virgilio e io gli andavo a portare da mangiare. Allora, ti ha sentì, gli facevo, perché lassù la casa dove abbiamo la casa noi, per andare nel bosco praticamente s’attraversa tutta la strada ma così boschiva, eh. Allora io che facevo? Avevo dieci anni no, m’ero, la mamma m’aveva fatto, la mamma era sarta, m’ero fatta fare una gonna tutta increspata, sotto la gonna io c’avevo messo i sacchettini, non so se l’ha presente il sacchetto che ci s’andava a coglier olive?
FC: No, non ce l’ho presente.
DDC: Di stoffa, eh, tipo un grembiule ma però c’ha una bocca così, fatta così, fatto così il grembiule, il sacchetto, no? Ecco. Allora sotto la gonna il sacchetto, il sacchetto col da mangiare per il papà e per il fratello, ecco. E poi sopra un altro affare che facevo visto che andà nel bosco a raccoglier pini, un cesto al braccio, insomma così e cosà. E quaggiù c’avevo la roba da portare a mi papà e mi fratello eh e allora incontravo tedeschi, ‘te dove andare?’ e io gli dicevo che era, insomma facevo capire così che raccoglievo pini perché c’avevo la cesta al braccio con pini dentro, insomma tutto quanto. Però ero una ragazzina piccina, non pensavino di, e invece andavo a portà, se m’avessero scoperto [laughs].
FC: Eh, meno male. Ma quindi il suo papà e i fratelli erano nascosti lì perché avevano paura che
DDC: Eh sì, c’erano rastrellamenti perché, faccia conto che ogni volta per settimana e anche due facevano rastrellamenti. Quelli che erino giù in paese, i tedeschi, allora venivano su e venivino a fare rastrellamenti anche dove, noi si stava sopra il paese, popoino sopra il paese così, e noi ragazzi s’andava in cima così, ora io non so come spiegarglielo perché da lassù dalla casa dove abitiamo noi si vede giù il paese, s’affacciamo così si vede il paese, e c’erano queste macchine di tedeschi, queste cose vicine alla chiesa così e noi se n’accorgieva, ci s’accorgieva quando loro partivano per fare questi rastrellamenti. Allora, che si faceva? Te va a chiamar tu papà, te va a chiamà, a bussà a la porta, andate via perché vengino i tedeschi a fare rastrellamenti. Allora si finivinu di vestì per
FC: Per strada [laughs].
DDC: Per la strada e una volta lì accanto a me e perfino un nostro parente Elia, quando, ecco, non ce la fece a scappare questo giovanotto, non ce la fece a scappare, niente i tedeschi in casa. Allora c’aveva na sorella, che aveva na bimbetta piccolina, che era nata da poco e insomma e questa sorella stava lì con loro perché il marito era militare. E lei era in camera con questa figliola, allora, si pigiavano [makes a knocking noise] ecco i tedeschi, ecco i tedeschi, via. Allora lei che fece? Lu era su in questa camera che dormiva, non ce la fece ad andar via, si mise tra una materassa e l’altra, sdraiato su, tra una materassa e l’altra, la su, le coperte che coprivano questo coso, la sorella a sedere che dava la poppata alla figliola. Entrino i tedeschi in camera e, c’era la bimba, c’era la donna che dava la poppata alla figliola e insomma, hai visto come fai, facevano loro insomma, però come dire, non c’è nessuno ve’. Il fratello l’aveva messo tra una materassa e l’altra e le c’era a sedè così che dava, come dì, questa è lì, io mi metto a sedere sopra di lui e do da poppà alla figliola. Queste son cose successe davvero.
FC: Eh no, ci credo, lo so, lo so. Quindi non erano partigiani però i suoi famigliari.
DDC: No, no, proprio partigiani di dire sono stati ne partigiani no, non erano certi per i tedeschi però neanche [laughs]
FC: Anche perché se scappavano insomma.
DDC: Ma poi mio fratello, era, voglio dire, giovanetto, mio papà aveva già una certa età, non era per esempio, ragazzi da andare anche.
EL: Ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
DDC: Sì, il papà, il nonno ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, vero, mi papà.
FC: Eh, va bene.
DDC: E quando ammazzarono là nella selva quei sette, n’ammazzarono sette. Una mattina si sente camminare così [stamps her feet] perché c’abbiamo proprio la casa lassù dove abbiamo la casa paterna, qui c’è la porta e lì c’è la strada che passa proprio lì davanti la strada e si sentiva [stamps her feet] camminare così. C’affacciamo sulla porta, io ero una ragazzina perché avevo paura e la mi mamma invece, lei non aveva paura di nulla, lei c’aveva sempre di vedè, da cosa no, di vedere se poteva aiutà qualcuno, era così, lei era così. S’affacciamo sulla porta e c’era sette giovanotti così camminavino uno dietro l’altro, prima un tedesco [unclear] e c’eran due tedeschi così. E signora, quando videro la mi mamma che s’affaccia sulla porta così, perché la porta è proprio sulla strada, la soglia così come lì ci fosse la strada, un sogliettina così. E la mi mamma quando li vide questi qui, allora che succede, che succede? o signora, ma loro non si poteva mica fermà a chiacchierare, la mamma n’andava dietro, o signora, ci portano ad ammazzare a Stiava. Ci portano, perché allora li fucilavano da tutte le parti, era così, e la mi mamma n’andava dietro perché loro camminavino e parlavino, ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava. Me lo dice a la mi mamma che c’ha visto? Ma e che vi posso dire, io non so chi sia la tua mamma e c’era a quell’ora degli sfollati che erano venuti via, viareggini erano venuti lassù perché facevino bombardamenti le, le cose no, e c’erino allora, tanti andavino nel paese così per, non istavino nelle città perché era più pericoloso. Ma come fa, eh signora ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava e guarda lì. E ma camminà non si poteva, non me ha fermà e la mamma dietro. Ma lei pensi, eh, la mi mamma non aveva paura di nulla. Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma? Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma che ci portino? Ma io non la conosco la mamma, tesoro, ma come faccio a dire a la tu mamma? Mi disse anche come si chiamava la su mamma ma io ora quello non me lo ricordo perché ero ragazzina, insomma. E dopo a un certo punto un pochino l’andò di dietro a questi, erano tutti in fila così, i tedeschi con quel coso puntato. Ad un certo punto la mamma si rigirò ma dopo un, sarà passato un dieci minuti, infatti furono fucilati lì vicino alla casa nostra, voglio dire. Ci siam [unclear] questa cosa le [mimics machine gun noise] queste scariche, no. Oddio, disse la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, a me piglia il freddo, erano [unclear] perché cose passate proprio da lassù, oddio oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati. Dopo così un pochino ma non so il tempo che sarà passato ritornino indietro questi tedeschi con quei fucili, però quegli altri ragazzi non c’erino più. L’hanno ammazzati, diceva la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati. Io bisogna che vadi a vedere se qualcuno avessino bisogno di noi. Queste cose le ho viste, eh!
FC: Sì, sì.
DDC: Allora, la mi mamma si parte, si fece allontanare questi tedeschi perché stavino dal Bellotti ora te lo sai voglio dì, insomma quando si furono allontanati la mia mamma disse io ciò d’andà a vedè sti ragazzi com’è il discorso. Si parte ma per non mandarcela sola sta povera donna e io vado sempre dietro alla mamma. Quando si cammina poco distante dalla casa questi ragazzi tutti sternacchiati nella strada morti. Queste cose non si possino scordà!
FC: Eh immagino.
DDC: Non si possino scordare queste cose qui.
FC: E questi tedeschi non dicevano niente?
DDC: I, no, no, c’hanno anche, non li si poteva dir nulla perché guai, voglio dire. Non ci venivino mica a raccontà le cose a noi. Guai che, e poi, non avendo mai trovati gli uomini lì nelle nostre case perché eravamo in sette famiglie. Gli uomini non ce li avevino mai trovati perché chi dormiva nel bosco, chi dopo, noi siam dopo sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino erano cioè erano andati vai perché lì nel paese lì vicino a Ricetro c’era il terreno, tedeschi anche lì c’erino proprio a dove c’è la villa lì a Ricetro, c’erino, l’avevimo da tutte le parti.
EL: Avevano messo anche un cartello, no, i tedeschi, con scritto che eravate partigiani.
DDC: Sì, qui tutti partigiani, tutti partigiani. Di stare attenti, qui c’era, no, ma ne avevino messo quattro, cinque di questi cosi, che erimo partigiani e c’era da stà, come si faceva? E’ così.
EL: E quello che venne in casa a chiedere il pane invece?
DDC: Allora, si faceva il pane, la mamma faceva il pane in casa, fatto così da noi no. C’abbiamo il forno.
FC: Che pane era?
DDC: Il pane bono, il pane casalingo.
FC: Bianco o nero?
DDC: No, bianco, no, non si faceva nero, si faceva normale voglio dire. Perché poi c’avevamo, si seminava il grano da noi voglio dire e poi a quell’ora c’era un, c’era la tessera, a quell’ora e davano un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno, a tessera alle persone, un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno. Invece c’era la possibilità, chi voleva la farina, si poteva prendere la farina. Allora a te la farina invece ne davino un pochino di, insomma a quell’ora là. Allora la mi mamma preferiva prendere la farina e poi il pane farlo da noi perché lassù alla casa paterna, accanto c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo il forno. E poi c’aveva, ci s’aveva insomma sai terreno e si seminava il grano anche da noi e un po’ il grano ce l’avevamo anche da noi. E allora si prendeva un po’ dell’uno e un po’ dell’altro e si cercava di tirare avanti e fà questo pane. Allora, il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], quel pane casalingo, lungo, grosso, no, così. Avevamo levato il pane e la mamma per farlo ghiacciare si metteva la tavola che ci si metteva poi il pane sopra quando si portava il pane al forno perché il pane, il forno, come qui c’abbiamo la casa, il forno era come lì in fondo, si camminava pochi passi, c’avevamo il forno. E niente, questa sedia, due sedie così, ci metteva la tavola e metteva il pane così e ritto come fosse, questo è il pane così e per farlo ghiacciare, prima di metterlo nell’armadio non ci si poteva mettere. A un certo punto, e noi eravamo, questi bamboretti perché c’erano altri du fratelli, c’era Franco, che ora è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è Franco che è prete voglio dì, erimo tutti in terra, io ero la più grandina, a sedè seduto su una cosa. E c’avevimo, aveva levato il pane, era là, così questo pane a ghiacciare. Entra un tedesco in casa poi si sentiva proprio quel profumo di pane casalingo, no, così, pane, pane, pane, perché, a un certo punto hann sofferto tanto anche loro eh, poverini, io quelli prima non lo so ma quelli quando li abbiamo avuti vicini lo so, poi loro c’avevino un pane nero come minimo così, brutto e cattivo, che se lo infilavi nel muro [laughs] si spaccava il muro ma il pane no. Allora, aveva fatto, aveva levato questo pane e noi eravamo, bamboretti così, eravamo io, che ero la più grandina poi altri du fratelli e poi c’era quello che ora è, Franco che è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è prete sì. Eravamo lì tutti in terra, c’era steso un panno e eravamo lì tutti in terra così a sedere e si chiacchierava così tra una cosa e l’altra, visto che si fa bamboretti insieme, anch’io voglio dire ero bamboretta perché avevo dieci anni ecco. Entra un tedesco, pane, pane, perché si sentiva il bel profumo di pane [unclear] così, pane, pane, pane. Entra e noi, questi bamboretti si fece certi occhi così e si vide entrà, e va là questo coso e piglia un pane così nella tavola come faccio io ora e dopo parte questo tedesco. Un vuole che il discorso nel frattempo che lui ci va fuori, entra la mi mamma: ‘E te, ndu vai?’. Mi disse, io, pane e pane. Parte di corsa. E lì, siccome, nel mentre che l’entrava questo andava via col pane in mano, mi chiappa il pane mi mà, e lo riporta là. [background laughing] E lu, andè via ma però poverino [unclear], ecco e lei s’affaccia sulla porta e lo guardava e dopo anche noi ragazzi sai e lu poverino andava via con la testa, un po’ son dolori perché aveva capito, come dì, ho preso il pane perché siccome lo sapevino anche loro che c’era la fame per il mondo a quell’ora, no, e allora, e a lei, come dì, povera donna hann levato il pane per i suoi figlioli, hai capito? E lu andava via così. E la mamma, no, la mamma la, nel mentre entrava la mamma, mi sono scordata un discorso. Nel mentre che la mamma entrava, e lui usciva fori col pane e lei glielo prese, tu ,come dì, m’hai preso il pane che per i miei figlioli, vedi quanti ce ne ho! Perché non erimo neanche tutti noi, c’era Franco, c’eran tutti
EL: Sì, sì, c’eran tutti.
DDC: Glielo prese e lo rimise là. E lu andè via, lo capì forse nella sua cosa capì che questo discorso come dì, hai preso il pane che c’erano i miei figlioli lì poverini miei che morino da fame. Quando lei lo rimise là e poi, e lu andè via ma popo’ così pover’omo, e dopo lei s’affacciò e lo guardò e lu era andato via un poco macilento così a lei ne seppe male, prese il pane, poi s’affaccia sulla porta: ‘Camerata! Camerata! Camerata!’ ‘Sì?’ e lu si gira e lei n’andò incontro e gli dette il pane. Povera donna. Lu, io v’avrei fatto vedè questo ragazzo abbracciato a nonna, v’avrei fatto vedè. Tutti i giorni che lu passava de lì c’aveva da salutar la nonna. Camerata! Poverini, han sofferto anche loro perché [unclear] quelli lì c’era quello che era più buono, c’era insomma, poverini. Non te le puoi scordà queste cose che. E lì vicino alla nostra casa t’ho detto, cioè ammazzarono questi ragazzi.
EL: Però era a Pioppetti, no? Il tuo vicino di casa, lì.
DDC: A Pioppetti, a Pioppetti trentadue.
EL: Ma il tuo vicino di casa come l’ammazzarono a Pioppetti, che l’andarono a prendere al bar?
DDC: Ah, ma quello, Corrado.
EL: Sì.
DDC: Corrado, quello sì che stava in
EL: Come mai c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti?
DDC: Allora, c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti perché se tu, ora io non so se lei è pratico come. Te vieni da coso, dal Pitoro, vieni dal Pitoro e quando arrivi a un certo punto c’è la strada che continua e va a Valpromaro, c’è la strada che va giù che va a Montemagno, e po’ Camaiore, un po’ dalle parti lì, no? Allora, c’è questo incrocio e lì, allora c’è anche quella marginetta?
FC: Sì.
DDC: Allora, dove c’è quella marginetta lì c’avevino ammazzato un capitano tedesco che l’avevino accusato e c’è stata non so quanto ferma la su jeep che avevino insomma quelle macchine lì che avevino soldati.
FC: Sì.
DDC: Perché c’erino partigiani lassù, dove siamo stati anche noi lassù al Ferrandino. Erino scesi di notte che avevino fatto? Avevino trovato, avevino visto che questa macchina veniva e loro appostati hanno sparato a questi partigiani, eh a questi tedeschi e avevino ammazzato questo capitano dei tedeschi, non so, capitano, generale, non lo so com’era. E lì c’era la su macchina ferma c’era stata tanto e lì ammazzavino un tedesco? Normale, dieci dei nostri fucilati. E invece un tedesco, un graduato, è logico che lì quanti ne passò. Eppoi, faccia, fa conto che trentadue li impiccarono, a ogni platano c’era uno impiccato. Trentadue. E poi se ne ammazzarono dei altri ora non me lo ricordo ma quelli io li ho visti.
EL: Il papà di Rino?
DDC: Eh, il papà di Rino, quello lo ammazzarono ma non senza portarlo laggiù. Vennero in sù, quando arrivarono lì a Leccio sono entrati perché c’è sempre stato ci vendevano insomma i cosi.
EL: L’alimentare.
DDC: L’alimentare insomma era un popo’ di tutto il sale, quella roba lì ci si andava a comprare allora il pane, un popo’ di minestra, insomma, quel che si poteva, ecco, e lui, si fermarono lì, lo trovarono lì, e lo presero. Ammazzarono. Ora, se l’ammazzarono lì laggiù ce l’hanno portato morto, se no, ce l’hanno portato, non so com’era o non me lo ricordo ora, quella cosa lì on me la ricordo bene.
EL: Ma sapeva una cosa della forchetta?
DDC: Ah, ma della forchetta che la, sì, ma quella, allora, allora, perché l’han trovato, eccovedi, ora me l’hai messo in mente, lo trovarono a mangiare e lu pover’omo mangiava la forchetta, e l’ammazzarono e la forchetta gliel’avevino infilata, pover’omo, sì. Erino, erino cose brutte a quell’ora lì, sì.
EL: Invece il camion?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Il camion mitragliato?
DDC: E il camion mitragliato, ma più che quelle cose però, più che un camion grosso era na macchina sempre da soldato si vedeva, era lì davanti dove c’è quella marginetta.
EL: No, no, ma dico, quello mitragliato dagli aerei.
DDC: Ora quello non me lo ricordo come
FC: In generale si ricorda per esempio degli aerei che mitragliavano, dei bombardamenti?
DDC: Ma quello, allora un camion che mitragliarono, la prima cosa che si fece che erimo io e lo zio Luigi, eravamo alle pecore, avemmo portato le pecore quaggiù nella selva che là c’è la dove si scende il monte di, per andare a Camaiore la. Noi si chiamava la Girata del Giannini perché lì c’era la cosa, la Signori Giannini, che a quell’ora c’era la villa di questi signori. E questa selva noi dove si mandava le pecore era vicina che come dì là c’è la villa, come fosse là, è la villa e qui, noi c’eravamo con le pecore e lì c’era la strada che passava e saliva sul monte di Montemagno. Allora quando un camion passava, eravamo vicini da questa curva e a parte che c’erano castagne, c’erino gli alberi e tutto quanto però la curva la rimaneva visente che voglio dire e noi, quando si vede questi. Nel frattempo arrivano questi aerei, arrivano questi aerei e là c’era questo camion, proprio a questa curva lì e il camion quando sentì gli aerei si fermò, si fermò lì, eh, oh, non c’era modo e lì era tutto scoperto. Questi cami fecero la picchiata, incominciarono a mitragliare questo camion, noi io e il fratello più piccolino c’avevamo le pecore allora, non so se ne ha raccontato a te, queste pecore, perché cami, e gli aerei quando fanno le picchiate poi, venivino bassi, venivino bassi chequasi quasi pareva che ti vedessero perché lì per, per cosa questo camion, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] pecore spariti no. Oddio, si chiamava Luigi il mio fratello lì, che eravamo insieme, era più piccolino di me, le pecore sparite, non si sapeva dove erino andate a finì. Oh Luigi, ma noi si va a, andiamo a casa, andiamo a casa e si parte. Piglio mio fratello che era più piccolino di me per la mano e su attraverso per la vigne, per le cose, si arriva a, sì ma si andava per venì a casa, come si fa a dì alla mamma che le pecore non c’è più? E ndov’è queste pecore, ndov’è queste pecore, come si fa a dirglielo. Quando s’arriva a casa, prima d’andare a casa, si passa dall’ovile dove avevamo le pecore, no. Le pecore erano già tutte là suddentro! Si pigiavano l’una con l’altro, si pigiati, io ve ‘vrei fatto vedè, si erano ricosate tutte insieme, avevino avuto paura anche loro perché quando questi aerei facevino, un po’ bassi così, voglio dì, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] per cosà quel camion. No, io quelle pecore ve l’avrei fatto vedè. Eppure presero la, erimo lontani, perché ora lei non lo sa ma di laggiù dalla curva del Giannini arrivà alle capanne, un è lì, come si fa, si diceva lo zio Luigi, oh Luigi, ma come si fa a dire alla mamma che un si sà dove sono andate le pecore? Come si fa? Io ero più grandina, come si fa andargliela a dì? E lo so, diceva mio fratello tutto calmo così eh, oh, c’è da dirglielo [laughs], c’è da dirglielo. Lo so che c’è da dirglielo, ma come si fa? E invece, quando s’arrivò a casa, lei pensi no, le pecore erano tutte dentro, una pigiata col culo nell’altro, sì n’avrei fatto vedè, pareva un gomitolo dallo spavento che avevino avuto anche loro. Perché questi aerei per fà la picchiata su quel, venivino proprio, ci sarebbe insomma lo potevi toccare, potevi prendere, una cosa così non si può scordà.
FC: E si ricorda degli altri episodi dove c’erano gli aerei? Degli altri momenti?
DDC: No, degli aerei.
FC: Così, che mitragliavano?
DDC: No, succedeva che, ad esempio quando hanno anche, mi pare anche che abbiano bombardato anche Viareggio qualche volta ecco, però noi stando lassù si poteva vedere questi aerei che facevino, si diceva delle volte, vedi stanno facendo la picchiata, si diceva tra noi ragazzi, perché [mimics noise of diving plane] e così o tiravino le bombe, ecco, quello sì. Però più vicini no [coughs] da noi.
FC: Ho capito, ho capito.
DCC: Quello era [laughs].
FC: E invece, ma lei lo sapeva chi erano questi aerei? Cioè chi è che li guidava? Chi è che faceva queste cose?
DCC: No, no, quello io non lo sapevo, allora prima di tutto
FC: Nessuno gliel’aveva spiegato?
DCC: No, che c’erano sopra come dì, dei soldati che guidavano l’aereo, quello sì, però non sapevo altro ecco.
FC: OK.
DCC: Perché le dico anche un discorso. Allora, ora in tutte le case ci sono le televisioni c’è, però voglio dire noi non ci sapevano, non si sapevano le cose ecco.
FC: E lei andava a scuola, in quel periodo lì?
DDC: E io in tempo, dunque la guerra c’è stata nel? ’40-’45, nel ’45 son passati di lassù. Ecco io però allora nel quarant, che ad esempio le dirò una cosa. Io ho fatto soltanto la terza elementare. Perché lì al paese facevano solo, vedi dopo, dopo no, dopo fecero, hanno fatto anche fino alla quinta però lì ci facevano fino alla terza elementare. Che succedeva? Chi voleva continuare per fare fino alla quinta, c’era da andare o a Valpromaro o alla Tirelici. Allora chi c’aveva la bicicletta, chi ci poteva che è, va bene, se no, si accontentavino della terza elementare. E infatti, io ho fatto solo la terza elementare.
FC: Prima della guerra quindi.
DDC: Sì, sì, prima della guerra.
EL: Prima della resistenza, perché sì, sì perché, prima della guerra.
DDC: Eh oh.
EL: Eh sì, perché sei del ’32.
DDC: Io sono del ’32 e la guerra nel ’40-’44 voglio dire, la peggio qui tra noi è passata nel ’44.
EL: Sì, sì, sì.
DDC: E allora chi voleva continuare, chi poteva continuare, c’era da andare a fare la quarta e quinta a Valpromaro o alla Tivaelici. Allora per quel che riguarda i nostri fratelli che si, coso l’han fatta alla cosa, Vergilio, l’han fatta alla Tivaelici. Invece dopo, hanno fatto, la quarta e la quinta la facevano anche lì alla scuola a Montemagno, infatti Luigi, lo zio Luigi e Aldo l’hanno fatta lì la quarta e la quinta che mi ricordo, per fare la quarta e la quinta a Luigi c’era una maestra tedesca a insegnarli. Che era cattiva da morire, che li picchiava, che una volta con una cosa, che poi lo zio Luigi era, boh non ce n’era, non ce n’era davvero, e n’aveva con, con una stecca di legno n’aveva picchiato su una cosa, aveva fatto male a un unghia, ora non mi ricordo, guarda, era insomma così. Quando venne a casa, che era buono lo zio Luigi, lo zio Aldo era un pochino più vivace, ma lo zio Luigi era un ragazzo che non ce n’era davvero, eh mio fratello. Allora, ma lei era cattiva, siccome poi parlava più tedesco che italiano, non la intedevino bene, lei voleva essere capita, voleva, non aveva quella cosa di dire, ma io parlo con dei bimbetti, voglio dire, che pretendo, no? No, no. Lei picchiava, c’aveva una stecca di legno, ma tipo un bastone no così e li picchiava e n’aveva picchiato su un unghia lo zio Luigi e quest’unghia mi sembra, era andata tutta, no. Lo zio Vergilio, quando vide che questo, a questo figliolo n’aveva accusato mezzo un unghia ma poi li s’era diventato tutto nero perché le unghie son delicate, con la stecca, che poi lo zio Luigi era buono, era un ragazzo, no, non ce n’era, Aldo no, lo zio Aldo era più vivace ma lo zio Luigi era un santo davvero. San Luigi Gonzaga delle volte si diceva, era così davvero eh. Allora, quando venne a casa che vide questo dito sfatto, lo zio Vergilio va laggù, trappò la chiappa per il collo, che sia la prima e ultima volta perché te insegno, mi fa, e poi non so chi salvò sennò la guantava per il collo sta maestra insomma che poi ti rovinavi perché voglio dì. Ma insomma, siamo così.
FC: E poi, lei prima a un certo punto ha detto che dopo un po’ sono arrivati dei tedeschi vicino, no, alla casa dove stava lei? Non ho capito se era lo stesso di quello che cercava il pane oppure se erano degli altri?
DDC: No, no, ora però che n’ho raccontato che facevano i rastrellamenti, in quel punto lì?
FC: No, in generale, se c’erano dei, se lei ha avuto a che fare altre volte con dei tedeschi? Se.
DCC: Eh ,tedeschi passavino mille volte davanti a casa, così e cosà, eh, voglio dire, di che, che l’avevino ammazzati il coso l’ho detto quel discorso lì ecco. E poi c’era una villa vicina come dì, come ti ho detto io, quella è come fosse da casa mia e là c’erino proprio tedeschi, ha capito? Eh, oh, che facevano a venir qua e andà? Camminavino tante volte su e giu però insomma ecco un c’è più stato delle cose così.
FC: Ho capito.
DDC: Da quella volta lì che ammazzarono quelli lì dopo voglio dire non c’è più stato. E dopo poverini venivino la gente a vedere perché sapevino per esempio, c’è, n’avevino ammazzato che era gente di, uomini di Stiava che l’avevino presi, l’avevino ammazzati là e quell’altro era da n’altra parte perché lì facevino i rastrellamenti e poi li chiappavino perché venivan in mente. Dicevino loro qui si va [unclear]. Erano tutti partigiani secondo loro anche se non erino perché quella gente lì poverino non erino partigiani.
FC: E invece di fascisti?
DDC: Ma fascisti nel paese, nel paese?
FC: Fascisti nel senso italiani, sì, fascisti che, non i tedeschi, i fascisti se venivano a, non so.
DDC: No, fascisti anche nei paesi allora c’era un discorso c’era sempre per dire il capo dei fascisti, quelli che contavino logico che, che poi facevano come ti potrei dire ad esempio il quattro novembre che facevino la, che uscivano fuori, facevino, andavano giù per la strada un bel terzo e poi si rigiravino insomma quando facevino quelle dimostrazioni lì, se ad esempio, tutti non c’andavano, guai, ma quelli non, ecco, erano proprio quelli del paese che ce l’avevino con te perché magari non la pensavi come lui, hai capito? Allora, così, così. Allora, ma proprio un tempo proprio de coso, prendevano un tempo proprio de famoso del fascismo, riprendevino chi non era andato, c’era de, il quattro novembre, faccio per dire, ora un discorso del genere e chi non c’andava, allora andavino a prender a casa e poi gli n’davino l’olio di ricino lì, ecco, tutte quelle cose lì. E nei paesi più che nelle città. Perché c’era sempre quello che ce l’aveva con quello là perché, hai capito, così. Così.
FC: Capito. E lei si ricorda quando è finita la guerra?
DDC: Ora quello, io non lo ricordo.
FC: Cioè, cosa, se è cambiato qualcosa, non proprio il giorno, magari non proprio il giorno preciso preciso. Però se c’è stato un momento in cui lei aveva capito che la guerra era finita?
DDC: Allora, allora, quando insomma era finita la guerra, questo me lo ricordo. Allora, dice, ma lo sai che vengono, oggi, dice, vengono gli Americani a Stiava, faccio per dì. Allora noi si scese il bosco, salgo a Stiava, infatti nel frattempo erano arrivati questi Americani, questi cosi, ci fu, la gente l’acclamava tutti insomma, quel discorso lì sì me lo ricordo però così come, comunque ci s’andò.
FC: E c’era andata.
DDC: Sì, ci sono andata, sì ci s’andò. Eh certo.
FC: E poi cos’è successo, cos’è successo dopo qunado è finita la guerra? Come sono cambiate le cose?
DDC: Eh, dopo allora abbiamo cominciato voglio dire, meno male questo, meno male quell’altro, voglio dire non c’era più il coso di rimpiattarsi, era tutta un’altra cosa. Eh, dopo quando ci furono.
FC: E’ tornata nella casa?
DDC: Sì, allora, il papà che eravamo andati tipo uno perché i tedeschi li prendevino, li fucilavino, li cosavino e erino andati lassù come detto sopra Gombitelli. Allora, quando furono, quando ci furono, voglio dire che siamo stati salvati allora ognuno è ritornato nelle sue case e abbiamo ricominciato quello che si faceva prima, voglio dire, ha capito la gente così e ha ripreso il suo modo di fare voglio dire.
FC: Quindi non si ricorda tipo questi famosi tedeschi che stavano nella villa quando sono andati via?
DDC:Eh no, allora,
FC: No, così, chiedo.
DDC: Quello non lo ricordo ma quando fu quell’affare lì, che cominciarono e che sono andati via, insomma hanno liberato queste case che avevino occupato loro, insomma così. Quello non ricordo altro, ecco.
FC: E la vita quindi, non so, è ritornato tutto come era prima?
DDC: Eh insomma, piano piano, voglio dire.
FC: Cosa, si ricorda qualcosa in particolare?
DDC: Eh c’erano, c’era anche lì vicino alla casa nostra c’era venuti degli sfollati di Viareggio che poverini insomma cioè poi un po’ nelle città bombardavano ma insomma e dopo sono ritornati ognuno a casa sua voglio dire, piano piano insomma. Ora quanti giorni c’avranno messo non lo so ma insomma [laughs], il discorso così. E lì, questi lì che avevano ammazzato lì vicini poi allora li vennero a bruciare questi, questi sette che ammazzarono lì vicino a casa mia. Ci son venuti, io chi era non lo so, senz’altro gente che voglio dire, gente apposta per, son venuti e l’hanno perché piano piano s’erano, ecco così.
FC: Nessuno li aveva sepolti?
DDC: Sono stati bruciati. E poi quello che c’era successo poi [unclear], quello non me lo ricordo comunque. Ma quelli lì poverini.
EL: Nessuno, ti ha chiesto se li avevano sepolti. No.
FC: Non li avevano sepolti?
DDC: No, no, no, erano là, erano rimasti, no, perché lì, vennero presi perché non è che per esempio erano stati ste cose lì e poi il giorno dopo sono andati via. Allora sono venuti a prenderli e li han portarli via ma gente non so, del comune, chi c’è venuto quello non lo ricordo. E parte erino già un poco posati se l’han bruciati, quello non ricordo. Non lo ricordo bene, direi delle bugie. Non me lo ricordo a modo quella cosa lì.
FC: E lei, lei dopo la guerra le è capitato spesso di ripensare alla guerra?
DDC: Eh, viene spesso da ripensare! Voglio dire allora, ora no, ora sono passati già qualche anno no, ma sul primo così se ne riparlava tante volte. Se ne riparlava, oddio ma ti ricordi quello ma quell’altro ma come è successo, ecco. Quella cosa lì sì, quello me lo ricordo bene quel discorso lì che ne è stato riparlato parecchie volte e insomma, eh allora.
FC: Si parlava anche degli americani, degli inglesi, dei, dei?
DDC: Sì, ma quando son venuti loro che voglio dire hanno occupato il paese insomma anche loro ma era già tutto differente. Non era un’affare come lì al tempo dei tedeschi insomma no.
EL: E che vi hanno dato gli americani? Vi avevano portato delle cose, no. Che sono, delle coperte, le calze.
DDC: Le coperte c’erino, piu che altro le coperte.
EL: Sì, sì. Ma non anche le calze di nylon?
DDC: Ora io quelle non me le ricordo e ci stà che
EL: Che la nonna te le tirò via.
DDC: No, ma quelle lì un l’avevino portate loro.
EL: Ah.
DDC: No, no, no, quelle lì, le calze fine?
EL: Sì.
DDC: No, no, quelle lì è un passaggio della nonna, che ero già giovanetta a quell’ora sì. Ero pronta, andava alla messa, prima lei andava alla prima messa, perché c’era la prima la mattina presto e dopo noi invece ci si andava più tardi. Che succedeva? Succedeva che noi si stava a casa, c’era la mia sorella più grande e la su nonna, che lei era la più grande di tutti e c’avevimo le bestie, c’era la mucca, c’eran le pecore, c’era il maialino, avevimo di tutto e non ci mancava nulla, non ci mancava nulla [laughs]. E le persone più anziane andavano alla prima messa e noi invece ci piaceva di più andare all’ultima messa, che c’eran le undici. Allora, quando loro andavino via noi si facevi te fa quella cosa, te fà quell’altra, la nonna faceva le cose più pesanti e io invece quelle più, ma insomma, via te fà questo te fa quel. Era l’ora della messa, era l’ora della messa e ero sù in camera che, allora avevo le calze, le calze fine, no? Le calze fine e le avevo lasciate così sulla seggiola, come si fà così, di un salotto, scendo le scale, scendo le scale ma avevo il sottabito. Ma lei pensi che il sottabito, quei sottabiti di una volta, che poi la mia nonna era sarta, e le facevino, ma no quelle, quei, quello spallino fino così, piccino, sì quelle cosine grandi così, un pochettino scollate ma non troppo, così, quelli erino sottabiti che poi la mamma era, la nonna Ancilla era sarta e si faceva, se li faceva da sè insomma. Allora, io ero a prepararmi e avevo lasciato le calze, era sul primo che mi mettevo le calze fini e l’avevo lasciate in salotto così attraverso alla seggiola. Scendo le scale, ma ero in sottabito. Lei era giù in cucina. Io chiudo l’occhio e la vedo. Scendo le scale e lei in fondo alle scale. Te dove andresti in questa maniera qui? Sono andà a prendermi le cose, vedilo là, vedi, vedete perché si dava del voi, vedete mamma, è là sulla seggiola là in salotto. Vai, te le porto io le calze. Dio bono, ma son già qui, e che mi ci vuole ad andà a prender le calze là? Cammina! Va in camera, vergognosa! Ma santo cielo, ma che ho fatto di male? Va in camera, ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello! Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello con la, con i sottabiti fatti da lei perché era sarta la mi mamma, ma i sottabiti di una volta non se li scordi, eh. Avevino come minimo le spalle grandi così, qui quando era tanto era scollato qui, eh. Se mi vedeva mi fratello in sottabito. No, io chiudo l’occhi e vedo la mi mamma, vai, te le porto io le calze, dio bono, ma sono già qui, era in mezzo a scala che ci vol a piglià le, no! Ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello. Ci sarà stato, ragazzi, ora a parte tutto, ma allora nelle famiglie era così eh. Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello.
EL: Insomma le calze te le ha portate?
DDC: Sì, le calze me le portò però mi fece rimontare le scale e a un certo punto se no poteva venirmi. No ma seria perché te.
EL: Però le calze, però non bruciò le calze di nylon?
DDC: Le calze, quando, no, non le bruciò, le strappò, le strappò. E queste sarebbino le calze? Perché calze fini allora, avevimo le calze fini perché sennò si dovevino portà fine ma già più grossine c’erano quelle no fine fine come c’eran ora voglio dì perché ero già giovanetta mica avevimo quelle lì già un po’ più, capito? E l’avevo su questa seggiola in salotto ma quando lei le prese in mano le strappò, e queste sarebbino le calze? Era così, era così. E in sottabito mi poteva vedè mio fratello.
FC: E quanti anni aveva quando è successo questo?
DDC: Ora io con esattezza io non lo ricordo insommma con esattezza ma ero e po’, ma avevo incominciato a portare le calze fini. Avrò avuto senz’altro, non so, una quindicina d’anni, voglio dì, così. Mi poteva vedè mio fratello. Ora, dice, poteva, al limite poteva ma se mi vedeva mio fratello in sottabito. Allora era così. E allora nelle famiglie c’era questo rispetto qui. C’era, era così guarda e non potevi mica camminare e allora ma le calze fine. Ma scherzi davvero. M’ero permessa di comprarmi le calze fini [laughs].
FC: Quindi lei lavorava già all’epoca?
DDC: Eh?
FC: Lavorava?
DDC: Ma allora non si faceva, ora voglio dire non, lavoravo ma in casa ero sempre voglio dire, si faceva di tutto perché si faceva, anch’io ho cominciato presto anche a cucire perché anche la mamma era sarta. La mamma era sarta però insomma io dopo mi sono cosata sempre di più voglio dire. Ma tante cose si sapevino già fare da lei, perché per esempio e fai via, io faccio [unclear] un po’ m’è sempre garbato a cucire voglio dire. Ero, voglio dire, non ero, la nonna, la tu nonna era più robusta di me, io invece sono sempre stata più magra, invece ora sì sono più grassa, ma allora sono sempre stata più magrina. E la mi mamma mi diceva che le persone bionde, più delicate di quell’altre, te no, te sta tranquilla, te fà così, te fà così. Me diceva così.
FC: Non era d’accordo.
DDC: No! Era vero che io non avevo la forza perché la su nonna, quel che faceva la mi sorella, è una cosa, ma davvero eh.! Ma non è che non lo comandasse nessuno, lo faceva proprio spontaneamente da sè. Per esempio, i nostri, sia mi papà sia mi fratello sia il nonno avevino la falegnameria e non ci lavorava nessuno sul terreno. E noi il terreno che s’aveva si chiamava allopre si diceva allora, si chiamava vello per vangà, cosa per fà il solco per fà, per seminare per, perché oh tanto terreno si faceva di tutto, voglio dire, era così. Lei, la mi sorella, le la sapeva fà tutto. Quando era fatto la cosa più grossa di vangar anche la terra, lei faceva solchi, seminava La cosa, faceva tutto, tutto, la nonna faceva tutto. Ma io ero magrina, ero così che [laughs] un avevo la forza della mi sorella. Mi davo da fà perché volevo fà quel che faceva lei [laughs] sì perché quando siamo ragazzi e le impastava il pane, le faceva il pane, le, io non ho mai fatto il pane in casa mia.
FC: No?
DDC: Mai, non ho mai impastato il pane.
FC: E come mai?
DDC: Eeeh, non avevo la forza perché, eh, diceva la mamma, te sei troppo mingherlina, non puoi perché quando faceva il pane si faceva,
FC: Come facevano?
DDC: Lei faccia conto che si faceva una decina o dodici pani ma quelli lunghi così casalinghi eh. E ciavevimo , c’è sempre lassù alla casa paterna e si cosava questo, faceva questo pane la mi sorella che lei è na forza e io,
FC: A mano?
DDC: Sì, sì, sì, sì.
FC: O usavate qualche strumento?
DDC: No, no, no, no, tutto a mano eh, tutto a mano. Lei faceva, sapeva fà tutto la mi sorella. A fà tutto, davvero, e allora [unclear] e allora ma io siccome volevo fare quello che faceva lei perché visto quando siamo bimbette ma perché io non lo devo fà? E allora diceva la mi mamma, ma te non puoi, non hai la forza che ha lei. Perché la nonna era brava per fà quelle cose lì, era più robusta invece e mi diceva: ‘le persone bionde un han na forza così’. Ma che vuol dì na forza? Dicevo io, [laughs] dicevo che vuo dì. Io volevo fà quel che faceva mi sorella ma niente da fà, non lo potevo fà. Ma vedi te, sei più mingherlina, sei mingherlina, mi diceva e io ero arrabbiata, non volevo che mi dicesse così [laughs]. E siccome sia mio papà sia mio fratello sia voglio dire facevano i falegnami e anche per lavorare la terra perché c’è l’abbiamo ma, ce n’avevimo tanta, si chiamava le persone apposta per fare queste cose. Allora quando era a lavorare invece per fà il solco che la terra è bella sciolta e viene lavorata, ma lei, la mi sorella ci faceva il solco, seminava veloce e lo volevo fà anch’io. Io non ho mai impastato il pane, eh oh. Ma te, siccome sei più bionda, sei più mingherlina, vedi le gente bionde o n’han la forza che hanno quelle more, ma perché uno deve avè la forza [laughs], no me faceva. Hai visto quando siamo bimbette che vogliamo fà quel che fà quell’altro, lo vogliamo fà anche noi. È così.
FC: Va bene. Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro? Qualche altra cosa che le viene in mente sulla guerra?
DDC: Ma io non mi ricordo, non so. Le ho raccontato quel discorso lì che si dovette partire, andare lassù sopra Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, ci si portò, ci s’aveva le pecore, ci s’aveva quella roba eh, c’andò mi papà, voglio dire, ci si portò anche quelle lì, c’andò lei lassù sempre la mi sorella più grande che era insomma col mi papà lassù voglio dire. Quando erano qui erano a fare, che ve sò dì, avevamo fatto anche, avevamo, io no perché. L’ho detto, ero una bimbetta avevino fatto anche un coso, un rifugio nel campo lì sotto che si, entravino da una parte che c’era un poggetto alto così e qua c’era il campo. E di lì c’avevino fatto il coso entravino lì sotto però come facevino a stà continuamente?
FC: Com’era fatto questo rifugio, proprio?
DDC: Questo rifugio era fatto dentro come tipo una stanza e poi era tutto cosato con le cose di, con le tavole, con le tavole di legno. E lì dentro era come una stanza ma certo.
FC: Era scavata?
DDC: Eh certo! Era scavato sì.
FC: E quante persone ci stavano?
DDC: Eh ma quattro cinque persone perché era un bell’affare grande così eh. Non sempre ci potevino dormì perché insomma anche dormì così sottoterra in quella maniera lì. Fu così che poi era una cosa insomma e andarono a finire sopra Gombitelli dopo il mi papà insomma gente lì via.
FC: Ah, era per nascondersi?
DDC: Nascondersi perché facevano
FC: Gli uomini?
DDC: Eh certo!
FC: Quindi lei non c’è andata, non c’andava dentro?
DDC: No, no, no, noi no, solo gli uomini. Prima dormivano nel bosco perché c’abbiamo boschi vicini ma con le coperte dormire nel bosco insomma, e io la mattina quando m’hanno detto andava a portà, andava a portare da mangiare il caffè, voglio dire, oppure a mezzogiorno la minestra tutto quanto, che mi mettevo il sacchetto sotto la gonnella per portargli e loro dormivino nel bosco. Ma han fatto una vita. Eh. E tutti quelli lì vicini, voglio dire, di lì, lassù dove si stava lassù c’eravamo, e sette famiglie mi pare. E ogni famiglia c’era, c’avevino la persona maschio voglio dire e partivino, chi andava di lì, chi andava di là, e sul primo che facevino i rastrellamenti che noi ragazzi s’andava lassù in cima e si vedevino quando le macchine partivino per i rastrellamenti, via! Scappate! Scappate! Magari andavino via mezzi nudi, si vestivino per il mondo, davvero, e dopo cinque minuti arrivavino i tedeschi a fare cosa. E noi erimo sempre.
FC: Cosa dicevate, ai tedeschi?
DDC: Nulla noi, noi erimo bimbetti.
FC: E non vi chiedevano dove erano gli uomini?
DDC: No, voglio dire a noi bimbetti no, erimo, voglio dire.
FC: Non si ricorda?
DDC: Voglio dire ai grandi, magari alle donne, magari l’avran detto ma e mi dicevino quando, a delle volte mi dicevino, come dì, che erino andati alla guerra, che non c’erino a casa, così. Erino andati alla guerra, eh, oh! A quello lì che t’ho detto che nun ce la fece ad andar via che la su sorella entrò tra una materassa e l’altra, la su sorella a sedere e faceva a vista lì a dò la poppa alla bimba. A sedere, entrino i tedeschi [unclear] al mondo e lui era tra. Eppure ragazzi a raccontarlo non ci si crede, ci si scriverebbe davvero un libro. È vero, è vero!
FC: E quindi adesso, quello che pensa lei della guerra, è cambiato rispetto all’epoca? Cosa pensa adesso della guerra?
DDC: Ma ora io, a dir la verità, insomma io penso che ora son tanti, son passati tanti anni voglio dire,
FC: Le dico le emozioni.
DDC: Certamente quando ne parlo, voglio dire, per me è come rivivere quel momento eh, eh, oh! Ma io delle volte penso, mi viene pensato come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra con le pecore per andare a Gombitelli. Perché lì lassù dove si abita noi, alle capanne ci chiamino eccetera, scendi giù in paese, e poi s’attraversa la strada e si prende la strada che va sù, lì accanto alla scuola c’è una strada grande che va a finire a Gombitelli ma poi quando siamo a Gombitelli per andare al Ferrandino dove si portò noi le bestie, ce n’era, c’era da camminare un altro bel pezzo eh, da Gombitelli al Ferrandino. Eppure. E delle volte dico io, ma come, io non ricordo, ecco quella lì quante volte me lo sono domandato che non sono mai riuscita a capire come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra per andare lassù. Perché da lì, da dove si abita noi c’è da scendere giù dove c’è la chiesa lì al paese, a Montemagno e poi c’è da prendere la strada per andare a Gombitelli. Come si fece, come è stata fatta quella cosa lì, me lo sono domandato tante volte, non l’ho mai capita.
FC: Perché non se lo ricorda?
DDC: Non me lo ricordo. Non lo ricordo perché lì da tutte le parti c’erano i tedeschi [unclear] a Montemagno era pieno così di tedeschi eh. C’era lì davanti alla chiesa c’erano i, nel coso del piazzale davanti alla chiesa c’erino proprio le cose dei tedeschi. Lì dove c’era la, che ora c’è la, come si chiama la cosa lì che c’ha Oriano?
EL: Bottega.
DDC: La bottega là che ci vanno a mangià la gente là.
EL: Sì, sì.
DDC: Più che bottega.
EL: Sì, sì, Le Meraviglie.
DDC: Le Meraviglie. Lì c’era, anche lì c’erino tedeschi da tutte le parti. Allora non c’era, c’era questo coso vuoto che i padroni erano in America e lì occuparono tutto questi tedeschi. Avevino, ti ho detto, [unclear] tutte le carte che erino lì. E loro sapevino, come trovavi una casa vuota, sta tranquilla, non chiedevino il permesso a nessuno. E poi ammazzavino le bestie [laughs], trovavino da mangià. Eh beh, ce n’erano tanti di tedeschi a Montemagno, non so come mai.
EL: Perché era la via che andava a Lucca forse.
DDC: E poi, partigiani, partigiani, come avevino paura dei partigiani però.
FC: I tedeschi.
DDC: I tedeschi avevino paura, anche quando venivino in casa, che noi erimo bimbetti no, e ‘te partigiani, no? Partigiani! Partigiani!’ E noi si diceva: ‘No! No!’. Quello si sapeva anche se eravamo bimbetti di dì di no. Di dir di no dei partigiani.
FC: E aveva paura dei tedeschi?
DDC: Avevimo paura davvero dei tedeschi. Insomma anche lì da noi averci fatto delle cose lì, aver ammazzato quella gente lì voglio dire, anche lì li ho visti tutti eh insomma. E quando eravamo là, perché si doveva, avevano attaccato fogli anche a questa villa, avevino attaccato fogli alle porte che noi si doveva sfollare. Si doveva sfollare perché lì tiravino all’aria tutto, no. Che di lì si andò alla casa là al Meschino. S’andò alla casa la, lo sai no dov’è questa casa al Meschino? Ecco, la casa al Meschino che poi anche lì vennero i tedeschi allora come come ci trovarono là non si sa perché questa casa qui che dico io è la nel mezzo a vigneto e al bosco, ma lontano di lì dalla casa dove si stava noi. Eravamo sfollati tutti perché avevano attaccato fogli che avrebbero ammazzato tutti, di sfollare, di sfollare. Allora non si sapeva dove andare e si parte, si va tutti là a questa casa là nel bosco, ma è na casa grande e era su, era du piani, na casa sotto e sopra insomma e s’andò là. Ci portammo le cose più necessarie e s’andò là. La nonna invece non volle mai venire, è sempre stata a casa lì. Invece quando vennero là i tedeschi, che si misero tutti in fila, che si dovevino fucilare tutti, perché c’avevino scoperto che noi eravamo là e dicevino che eravamo partigiani. ‘Tutti partigiani! Partigiani! Partigiani!’ Ma poi c’erimo bimbetti, c’era lo zio Luigi che era più piccolino di me. Allora ci misero tutti lì in piazza davanti alla casa, non so se eravamo una trentina, sì, una trentina eravamo sì, allora io abbracciai mio fratello e lì tutti i tedeschi intorno col fucile puntato. Abbracciai lo zio Luigi e girai le spalle al tedesco perché secondo me, secondo me, ammazzavino me e ma, con le spalle, ma io Luigi lo salvavo, te pensa. E invece che successe? Successe, eravamo lì tutti pronti che loro pronti, che si sapeva che quella gente non perdonavino. Nel frattempo scende di lassù, perché noi eravamo così giù che c’era questa casa e poi c’era un vigneto su che andava un popolino su così. Da questo vigneto che c’era nel mezzo una bella cosa, stradina che veniva giù, vennero, incominciarono a venì tre o quattro uomini, di lassù ma vestiti normali, no tedeschi. Allora noi si dice, questi ragazzi, ‘Oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani’, e quei tedeschi che erano lì ebbero, meno male! Ebbero paura, invece di venire insù vicino perché il coso, c’era la strada che veniva giù così, questi tedeschi incominciarono a saltà poggio e piano giù per il bosco. E noi [laughs] e meno male, se no c’avevino messo tutti in fila, si dovevino essere fucilati.
FC: Come mai vi avevano messo in fila?
DDC: E perché noi erimo partigiani o c’erimo figlioli dei partigiani, perché erimo là a questa casa nel mezzo a un vigneto nel mezzo così, non eravamo lì più alle case nostre.
FC: Quindi erano bambini, donne?
DDC: Bambini e donne, bambini e donne. E persone anziane messe giù che su una sdraia che poverini un camminavino.
FC: E questi uomini qua che scendevano dal monte, chi erano?
DDC: E quie, no, io non ho mai capito chi erano questi uomini ma questi uomini quando furono così che scendevino giù questo, perché erano, noi erimo qui ma poi c’era questo, questa salita che non era lì vicina, era un bel pezzo di lassù venivan giù e si vedevino sti omini scendere giù vestiti popo’, e lì si incomincià a dì: ‘Oddio partigiani! Se dio vuole partigiani!’. Questi tedeschi saltà poggi e piano e andà per ingiù per il bosco, non s’è più visti dove andati a finì perché avevino paura anche loro dei partigiani [unclear]. E meno male, meno male, ci fu quell’affare lì sennò, erimo già belli e pronti lì. E io avevo abbracciato lo zio Luigi e m’ero, avevo girato le spalle io verso i tedeschi che avevino il fucile puntato e io, secondo me, lo salvavo il mio fratello più piccolino di me. Dissi, me m’ammazzino ma mio fratello no. E invece meno male, ma c’erimo in tanti lì eh [laughs] e insomma. Erino momenti brutti. Erano momenti brutti davvero.
FC: Va bene. Direi che, io la ringrazio perché c’ha raccontato delle cose bellissime e interessanti.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs] insomma.
FC: Sì, bellissime, insomma.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs], bellissime era meglio se non [unclear], era meglio se io n’avevo raccontà, oh, era meglio se n’avevo raccontato na barzelletta [laughs].
FC: Bellissime, nella prospettiva. Ci ha raccontato delle cose interessanti e molto utili, ecco, mettiamola così.
DDC: Sì e insomma così, poverina, quel che v’ho detto la verità perché è successo, voglio dì.
FC: No, no, certo, certo.
DDC: Ero bimbetta e è successo qualche anno fa, eh. È passato qualche giorno, insomma [laughs]. Però insomma grosso modo le cose quelle lì. Ora non mi posso essere ricordate le virgole, per l’amor di dio, però insomma. Così.
FC: Va bene. Grazie.
DDC: E così, eh. E questo era il paese lì a quell’ora.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Delia Del Corto
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Delia del Corto (b. 1932) remembers daily life in wartime Tuscany, living in a family of ten. Provides details on rural life, especially home bread making, and stresses the difficult coexistence with feared German troops. Mentions many anecdotes in the context of the Italian civil war: actions of the resistance, locals being strafed, round-ups, and the killing of 32 civilians as reprisal for the death of a German officer. Recollects the day she found herself under aircraft fire while she took sheep to pastures with her little brother. Describes the construction of a makeshift dug out in a field in which her father hid and recollects how she got caught in crossfire.
Creator
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Francesca Campani
Date
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2017-09-26
Format
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01:09:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Identifier
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ADelCortoD170926
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Coverage
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Civilian
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/74/736/ABisioG-MascherpaT170308.1.mp3
337d6cd7833eb21a9f2125039c266f3c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bisio, Gabriella and Mascherpa, Teresa
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
G Bisio and T Mascherpa
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of a dual oral history interview with Gabriella Bisio and and Teresa Mascherpa who recollect their wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
Identifier
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Mascherpa, T; Bisio, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare la signora Gabriella Bisio e la signora Teresa Mascherpa. Siamo a Pavia, è l’8 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. È inoltre presente all’intervista il signor Maggi. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla, [background noise] l’Università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora Gabriella, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza del periodo di guerra, insomma?
GB: Le racconto che all’età di sette, otto anni, nove, quelle che l’è, partivo da sola dalla casa perché ero terrorizzata dai bombardamenti e andavo in una cascina nei dintorni all’Acquanegra.
AM: Sì, infatti.
GB: la cascina dei grandi, partivo il mattino, tornavo la sera. Nessun sbuieva no in ca’ mia perché non si andava da nessuna parte. Niente, la fame perché ho mangiato anche il latte con le patate perché non c’era il pane, la fila per poter avere magari il pacchettino di sale perché e poi tutto quello che si vedeva perché ad esempio mio papà lavorava in una cartiera Burgo, non ha mai voluto prendere la tessera.
AM: Del fascio.
GB: dei fascisti così e combinazione vuole, doveva essere portato via, dove li portavano a. Il giorno che doveva essere portato via è stato il giorno che è finito tutto il trambusto della guerra. Spariti anche di lì. Poi mi ricordo che c’erano i tedeschi nel piazzale del borgo, Piazzale Ghinaglia e si stavano arrendendo perché oramai erano e uno della compagnia tedesca si è portato avanti con le mani alzate, è stato ucciso dai compagni dietro. Tutti ricordi non belli. Poi, non lo so, la vita [unclear] ah, non è finita lì. Ehm, cos’erano i fascisti, tedeschi, chi l’è cl’è can mis tut al rob li dentar?
TM: Quello lì era un momento.
GB: Delle guerre.
TM: Alla fine guerre quando si ritiravano i tedeschi. La mitragliatrice [unclear].
GB: Giù c’è una paninoteca, qui, qui, sempre stato e han portato tutti.
TM: Mitragliatrici qui davanti all’entrata perché passavano da là per la statale.
GB: Sì, e han messo tutti armi e bagaj per sparare se arrivavano i.
TM: Davanti a una casa.
GB: il mio suocero insomma si è fatto risenti ma niente fare, spaventi anche li. Voi dov’è che andavate a prendere il pane?
TM: A Robecco.
GB: Robecco.
TM: C’era il pane, c’era.
GB: Perché loro.
TM: In bicicletta.
GB: Erano in una situazione diversa un po’ dalla mia. [unclear] Tra le disgrazie, ma varda quas chi, ciapa da li, scapa da là. Ciumbia abbiam fatto la fame.
AM: Invece Zina cioè andava.
TM: No num ndavam [unclear].
AM: No andava da Robecco in bicicletta.
TM: In bicicletta. Per prendere il pane per una settimana. I micconi. Il pane non c’era.
GB: Poi ha nascosto anche gente, gh’era chi nascost Muzzo, tla cunüsat, tlè conosü.
AM: Nascondevano anche gente come, come quelli che la dicevano che andavano nella cascina e là loro si nascondevano.
I: [unclear]
AM: Perché allora non c’erano tutte queste case.
TM: No, no.
AM: Allora c’erano, erano in fondo al borgo c’erano.
GB: Al tempo dei partigiani.
AM: Ma quand i bumbardavan vialtar scapavat o no?
GB: [unclear] Antonio, io no. Io ero sempre in quella cascina lì. Ah no, ti dirò un’altra cosa. Che poi avevamo preso l’abitudine, quando suonava l’allarme, si andava in quel rifugio che c’è, prendeva giù dall’Acquanegra. Quel rifugio lì. Quel giorno là c’era l’esumazione di qualche parente nostro. E allora con mia mamma, Gigi e Giovanni siamo andati al cimitero. Han bombardato, proprio preso quel punto.
AM: Quella volta, che ti diceva Piero quando hanno preso la tomba che ha fatto 90 morti.
TM: Tomba [unclear]
GB: Han proprio preso quel punto lì.
TM: I bombardamenti più brutti sono stati per il ponte vecchio perché.
GB: Che sbagliavano.
TM: Il ponte della ferrovia [unclear] Due volte sono andati giù. Ma questi qui tutte le volte
AM: Sì, in più quello che diceva.
TM: E han bombardato [unclear].
GB: Sbagliavano le posizioni. E anche quella volta lì, allora c’era già la passerella. Gh’era giamò un quaicos ca’ quadreva no. Fatto sta che ricordo ancora la scena. Perché naturalmente mio papà era al lavoro. Sentendo tutto e sapendo, memore che magari si andava lì, guarda. Noi tornavamo.
TM: Quel bombardamento lì l’ha centrà e l’è ndai giù anca mes Burg.
GB: Noi tornavamo dal cimitero, ci siamo visti sul ponte, lui tornava dal borgo. Non so dirti la scena quando ci ha visti perché il pensiero da ved pü una famiglia, vedasla davanti Tu ti ricordi che.
FA: Quindi si ricorda quando hanno bombardato?
GB: Eh questo no. Quand’è che l’è stat fiöi?
TM: Hanno bombardato.
AM: No le date, cioè un mese.
GB: Sì, sì, sì. No, no, no, no. Eh, noi eravamo dalla parte opposta del cimitero.
AM: Eran dall’altra parte del Ticino.
GB: Lì è stato un disastro, che roba. Vedere portavano via i morti, i feriti, la maniera ch’ieran, con la barelle di legno. Bisognava. Scene strazianti addirittura. No, no, è stato.
AM: E vialtar quand i bumbardevan, vialtar, erano qua a duecento metri da [unclear].
GB: Sì, sì, sì.
TM: [unclear ]A guardà in alt par ved, perché per, qui c’erano i, si fermavano i pullman che con l’allarme si sono fermati qui. I bombardamenti sono andati tutti nel rifugio lì. E sono rimasti sotto.
GB: E sono rimasti sotto tutti.
AM: Comunque tu pensa che a distanza di tempo, adesso te lo dico, c’era lì della Carminuti no, che han trovato un cadavere che praticamente era stato sbalzato in aria, era caduto sopra il tetto, aveva sfondato il tetto e non se n’era accorto nessuno, dalla puzza han rinvenuto il cadavere.
GB: Un po’ dappertutto anche quei che era stai bumbardà ] non c’erano più integri, erano tutti
AM: A pezzi.
GB: Immagini. Che robe ch’è stat li.
FA: Quindi hanno bombardato un rifugio vicino al ponte?
AM: No, qua, qua avanti.
GB: A metà abbondante.
AM: Quattro, trecento metri indietro da qua, che era distante dal ponte perché avevano sbagliato.
FA: Perché avevano sbagliato, sì.
GB: A metà borgata.
TB: Siccome forse era, c’era una curva li, fasivan fatiga.
AM: Non tenevano conto del Ticino.
TM: Facevano fatica a centrarlo il ponte vecchio e l’hanno bombardato due o tre volte.
GB: E poi c’era Pippo. C’era Pippo che rompeva le scatole tutte le notti. Non so no un mo’ ades, qual’era la sua funzione, so no un mo’ ades. Tutte le notti girava.
TM: Però un paio di volte ha bombardato la cascina Lignazza li, perché ieran andai int i camp , le bombe.
AM: Lui se vedeva magari qualche movimento, qualche cosa così, lasciava una bomba.
GB: L’unica cosa è che quando si andava fuori per non essere proprio sotto le case, andavamo quei prati li sempre giù dl’Aquanegra e mia mamma, e mia mamma si portava dietro il paiolo per fare la polenta. Oh Madonna, da mettere in testa, così se magari succedeva che bombardavano, mitragliavano, almeno la testa era salva. Di quelle cose che adesso ci ride magari a raccontarle ma allora no.
FA: Quindi c’era grande, c’era forte paura insomma.
TM: Altrochè.
GB: Forte paura, altroché. Forte paura e poi c’era il terrore di tutto. Perché anche per i giovani. Perché poi io avevo due zii, fratelli di mio papà, che erano fascisti fascistoni [emphasis] proprio. Gente che facevano del bene eh. Infatti quando è finita la guerra, nessuno li ha insultati, nessuno, Perché allora loro vivevano dentro la caserma, sul viale, e davano da mangiare a tutti quelli che andavano a cercarlo. Poi avevo uno zio, fratello di mia mamma, contro completamente, Angelo. E quindi avevamo anche un po’ di.
AM: Ma Tunon l’era, Tunon.
GB: Eh.
AM: L’era parente de tu ziu.
GB: Tunon chi l’è? [unclear].
AM: Al papà ad.
GB: Manuela?
AM: No. Bosi.
GB: Quel Bosi l’era me ziu.
AM: Quel che lui l’è partì, lui è partito, era appena sposato.
GB: Sì.
AM: E sua moglie era incinta, l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, no. Poi è andato a finire in Egitto, prigioniero in Egitto, è tornato nel ’46, che suo figlio quanti anni che aveva? Aveva sei o sette anni. Non aveva mai visto suo papà no?.
GB: No, ah, l’è, ti te dre parlà del Mino?
AM: Del Mino, sì.
GB: Ah, Tunon disevi Angelo [unclear]?
AM: No, perché al ciamevan Tunon so papà.
Gb: No è il papà del Mino.
AM: Sì, il papà del Mino se ciama.
GB: È suo sio Piero.
AM: Suo sio Piero.
GB: Tornato che era più lui, perché sentire quello che racconntava, lo mettevano su una scala ripide e po’ ag devan un punton e al la fevan borlà giù , lo faseva andar giù. Delle cose.
AM: Gli inglesi l’avevan catturato perché lui era partito addirittura prima della guerra.
GB: Sì, sì.
AM: Per la guerra d’Albania, no.
Gb: Sì, sì, è stato in Albania.
AM: E l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania. L’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, lui non è più, era il ’46, cioè non il, era il ’38, ’39, robe del genere. Lui non è più tornato, s’era perso, quando è partito era, s’era sposato da poco, no.
GB: Sì. Era partito che non era più lui. Lü giamò al la ciamevan Tunon.
AM: [unclear], perché sì.
GB. Povero.
GB: Ritorno, e poi mi ricordo un’altra scena che non so se può essere importante o no. Che un giorno hanno schierato Angelo, non ricordo il nome degli altri tre, davanti alla caserma dei carabinieri. E i fascisti dall’altra parte pronti ad ucciderli. E varda s’eri una fiületina propi giuina ca vadivi tut chi rob li. Poi non so come mai le cose son cambiate e insomma si son salvati.
FA: D’accordo.
AM: Che poi qua, diseva Piero, che chi g’era un pustament ad contraerea giù all’Acquanegra.
GB: Si altroché.
TM: Sì.
GB: Ma n’era dappertutto, Antonio. Dappertutto n’era.
AM: E sparavano ogni tant quai li?
GB: Si sentiva il botto dappertutto. Quand han trai giù, che han bombardà il ponte.
TM: Si qual li l’è stat, bombardamenti più... spaventoso.
AM: Però non sono mai sfollati perché abitavano già in fondo il borgo. Cioè scappavano nelle campagne e nelle cascine basta [unclear].
GB: Fuori che almeno le case non cadevano in testa, ecco.
FA: Eravate un po’ più lontani insomma.
GB: Ma si pensava a un fatto del genere invece. Eh lì c’è gente che han perso figli e non figli, in particolare in quel rifugio lì. Era l’unic ca’ gh’era chi in Burg in borgo.
AM: Grosso.
TM: Chi I pensavan ac l’era al püsè sicur.
Fa: E lei invece era da questa parte di qua del borgo, quando?
TM: Anche quello lì da questa parte ma è più in là, più vicino al ponte diciamo.
AM: Sì, no, le Gina quand i bumbardevan l’era da chi.
GB: Non si è mai mossa [laughs].
TM: No, ma anca li me cas fa ndevi in tla stra da la giu li nei campi.
FA: E l’ha visto? Che cosa si ricorda di quelle giornate, di quella giornata lì insomma?
GB: Eh, un trambusto che non finiva più.
TM: Mah, forse niente. Una visione che non si può descrivere.
GB: No, non si può descrivere.
TM: Perché non riesci ad abbassare la testa, guardat sempar in su , con la testa in giù guardi anca li [unclear].
GB: Vabbè che c’è gente che ha perso proprio tutta la famiglia, eh.
AM: Sì, ma le la diseva, vialtar guardevav I bomb ca’ nieva giù? .
GB: [unclear] Si s’eram propi chi, at ia vedevat a grapul chi nievan giù, proprio che scendevano [mimics sound].
TM: Mia mamma la scappava magari in casa. La gneva no föra la steva in ca’ e mi s’eri li a guardà, ne mur ne nient e specie quas chi il Ponte dell’Impero è andato giù.
AM: Ma quel che ha bombardà la tombina, vialtar iv vust la nivula, av ricurdè subit o no?
GB: Io non le ho viste perché non ero in borgo.
TM: No guardevi propi püsè in la dal pont proprio che sei in là adesso.
AM: Quindi anche loro non se ne sono resi conto subito.
[background noise]
GB: Aveva dei lati comici magari anche.
FA: Quindi insomma una grande confusione. Non si riesce a descrivere.
TM: A descrivere non riesco.
GB: No. Io l’unica cosa che mi ricordo è che tornando dal cimitero tutte sti barelle, sul coso che li portavano non si sa dove, morti, non morti.
FA: Quindi è arrivata insomma dopo che era successo, ecco.
AM: E anche lei che era qua non si è resa conto subito, vedeva venire giù le bombe.
TM: Polvere, fumo, perché po anca frequenti le bombe, una da dre a l’altra.
Gb: Un grappolo, un altro grappolo, venivan giù, me delle.
TM: Più brutto è stato questo qui, il ponte vecchio. L’altro.
GB: Ma hanno sbagliato un paio di volte a prenderlo.
TM: Oh, quas chi si.
GB: Eh! Il ponte dell’impero era più vivo, era più.
TM: Ponte delle ferrovie, il primo bombardamento.
AM: È andato giù.
TM: Quello dell’impero, due volte son venuti per.
GB: Ma chi più sè?
TM: E chi ien gni tre o quattre volte. L’ultima volta, un disastro.
GB: Disastro generale.
TM: Perché forse gh’evam un età che capivam un po’.
AM: Si capiva propi no un mo’ ben.
TM: In che manera l’era.
Gb: Ti dico che mi a vundes ann l’era finì la guerra. Unidici anni.
GB: Anche se po’ ghe gent che as ie fai i danè.
AM: [unclear]
GB: Eh?
AM: Lo diseva anche Piero [laughs].
GB: Poi c’è gente che.
TM: Quando è finita la guerra han fat i Carneval.
GB: Sì.
TM: Andà in gir con una gabbia con dentar i.
GB: La storia [clears throat] a quan ievan impost da met, i due palloni in alto.
TM: Qual li l’è prima l’è il Duce, quando l’è passà il Duce, ha fatto l’inaugurazione dela Lupa .
GB: Ah d’la casa dla Lupa . E hanno imposto a mio suocero di abbellire un po’ la casa perché passava di qua. E l’abbellimento l’è stato. Ma.
TM: C’era, era metà che sembrava un gabinetto, un servizio. Allora l’hanno dovuto allungarlo, fare una specie di terrazzo con i palloncini di sopra perché passava il Duce . Ma è prima della guerra. [pause]
GB: Avete voi qualche domanda da fare? Dai, iutes.
FA: Vabbe’ quindi allora quello è stato il primo bombardamento. Invece dei bombardamenti che sono venuti dopo? Ne avete visto qualcuno?
AM: No. Noi.
GB: Quello lì.
AM: Ma loro hanno visto quelli del ponte, scappavano poi dopo.
TM: Sì, sì, del ponte là e basta. Am ricordi nanca se ien gnu a bumbardà.
AM: No, ma quelli ien quei del ponte, po g’era Pippo, gli altri.
TM: Gh’era Pippo cl’era sempar in gir.
GB: All’inisi dal Burg a bas l’è ndai giù anca lü.
AM: Sì, sì, sì, là del teatro Bordoni, la cooperativa.
GB: Andà giù tut.
AM: Eh ma il burg, fino a quasi alla chiesa l’èra andà giù tutti, Indè ca gh’era Gavassi al gh’eva al deposit di strass che è bruciato, è andato a bruciare avanti non so per quanti giorni perché lì c’era il deposito degli stracci, c’era uno che faceva proprio la raccolta degli stracci.
GB: Inde ca gl’aviva?
AM: Li atacà ai scol
TM: Ma li l’è indè ca stava , ma lu l’era chi da Sfross.
GB: Dopu atacà.
TM: chi nde gh’era l’edicula.
Gb: Ma lè ndai subit li?
AM: No li gh’è ndai dopu, Sì perché lu andava lì dove se i scole.
TM: Ah li ghe ndai dopu la guera?
AM: I la che stava lu con la ca’ Che lì l’è andai avanti a brusa non so per quanto tempo perché alcune bombe, cioè, non è che le bombe han colpito la chiesa, sono arrivate vicino alla chiesa, perché era caduto anche un pezzo di navata della chiesa.
TM: E sempre nel bombardamento per il ponte.
AM: Sempre per il ponte. C’era, sempre una di quelle volte che hanno sbagliato a bombardare perché non hanno sbagliato, cioè hanno sbagliato diverse volte. Cioè, il massimo è stato quando hanno sbagliato che hanno preso la Tombina che proprio erano fuori però altre volte, sempre per il discorso della curva, loro sbagliavano e beccavano il borgo, le case del borgo. Una volta hanno beccato anche le case appena fuori dal ponte città vecchia. Han beccato anche lì, dove adesso c’è la cremeria e così, no. Una volta hanno sbagliato perché probabilmente sono stati più di là e hanno buttato giù le case anche di là, dove adesso hanno costruito tutte quelle case nuove.
GB: si perché il ponte lo han rifatto.
GB: Ma non come prima [unclear], Prima era più curvo e adesso.
AM: Sì, l’hanno fatto un po’ più in giù.
TM: L’han spustà, l’han spustà.
GB: Perché lì nel piazzale c’erano gli alberghi, di Ferrari, gh’era tut.
TM: Al ciclista atacà al pont.
GB: Andàt giu tut.
TM: Antonio, l’ha vüst no nanca lü [unclear].
AM: No abbiamo visto in fotografie e senti quei c’am cuntan ialtar.
GB: Antonio l’è giuin eh dai.
AM: Che me contava mio ziu, me contava mio papà.
GB: Antonio da chi a dü dì al cumpisa no ottantaquattr’anni. [laughs]
AM: [laughs]
GB: [laughs] Te capì?
AM: Sì, sì, sì.
FA: Va bene.
GB: Basta così?
FA: Va bene.
GB: Mi dispiace che forse anche un po’ l’età che non siamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe.
TM: Non ci ricordiamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per questa intervista.
GB: Facciamo il caffé?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa recollect the bombing of Pavia and give a vivid description of its immediate aftermath. They describe food shortages, resorting to eating potatoes with milk and queuing up for a portion of salt. Gabriella emphasises how her father refused to join the fascist party and how the war ended the day he was about to be deported. They recount various wartime episodes: a German soldier in the act of surrendering being shot in the back by his comrades, harrowing scenes of bodies carried away on wooden stretchers, and acts of kindness by fascist relatives, 'Pippo' bombing at night, anti-aircraft batteries positioned in the city and the accidental bombing of a church and houses near the old bridge which was the actual target.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:18:48 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ABisioG-MascherpaT170308
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/72/719/ARaffinE161210.2.mp3
7bd5f6ab34fcdd7a3037a24972643f55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Raffin, Ettore
E Raffin
Ettore Raffin
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Ettore Raffin who recollects his wartime experiences in Cordenons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-10
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Raffin, E
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MDB: Allora, buongiorno Ettore.
ER: ‘giorno.
MDB: Cominciamo oggi l’intervista per l’International Bomber Command.
ER: Adesso si parla, adesso si parla degli aerei inglesi.
MDB: Sì. Eh, cominciamo l’intervista per
ER: Io ti faccio presente adesso eh, ti spiego.
MDB: Sì, cominciamo l’intervista per l’International Bomber Command.
ER: La linea di ferroviaria
MDB: Sì.
ER: Che va da Mestre da Trieste era tutta così, un coso, e gli inglesi, di notte viaggiavano inglesi e stavano a, come si dice, a guardare, sì a guardare, a mitragliare e a mettere giù bombe sopra la ferrovia perché passavano i mezzi tedeschi, e di quello che mi ricordo così e si chiamava Pippo [emphasises] l’aereo. Era inglese. Viaggiava di notte. Era uno solo. E si davano il turno, si vede faceva certe ore poi e di nuovo un altro tutta la notte era così, protetta, no protetta, era, era, come si dice, quando, quando succedeva, quando vedevo una un coso, la ferrovia, treni correre pieno di militari o pieno di armamenti, loro venivano giù, ma solo, ma solo, e tutte le notti era questa cosa eh. Si chiamava Pippo questo aereo. Già si vede che aveva proprio il suo turno. Uno faceva non so quante ore poi un altro. Poi io te ne dico un’altra. Qui sopra il mio, nostro tetto qua, per giornate intere abbiamo visto gli aerei americani a squadriglie a sei per sei, eh. Succedeva che quando, succedeva che quando, succedeva che quando, uno si guastava allora non proseguiva perché questi aerei andavano tutti in Germania a bombardare. Qui non succedeva niente, qui viaggiavano a sei per sei e venivano, insomma portati dei caccia americani, no, le squadriglie, tutti, tutte si chiamavano fortezze volanti, ecco. E poi succedeva che qui non c’era niente, non c’era contraerea, però, neanche i tedeschi non avevano più tanti, tanto caccia da, portarci, portarsi dietro però era successo, succedeva invece che quando, con il viaggio lungo, perché questi venivano, adesso ti dico dove, di quello che si è saputo. Venivano da, aspetta, aspetta, aspetta un momento che, deve venirmi sai, dunque sì, sì, dall’Oceano Indiano, eh, sai dov’è l’Oceano Indiano? Ecco, sulle isole là, su quell’isola partivano da, tutti questi aerei, sai, ma per una giornata intera sai, eh, e sei per sei, poi succedeva però che col viaggio qualcuno si guastava, sì, o il motore o non so neanche, tornavano indietro e scaricavano le bombe. Però non hanno mai scaricato le bombe sui posti dove c’era abitazione, cercavano di sganciarle sui posti non si può dire che noi non ci ha fatto niente queste cose qua anzi noi dicevamo e ora che cominciamo a vedere gli americani, inglesi, eh? E come la stessa cosa ti dico e qua la scuola nostra avevamo e inglesi e quelli non possiamo dire niente noi, tutta brava gente. Ce n’erano di tutte le razze, sudafricane, neo, aspetta, indiane, Sudafrica, poi, sta’ attento, tutte intorno avevano le colonie, avevano, erano, poi c’avevano insieme i polacchi [cosacchi] anche e qui io ti posso una cosa dei polacchi questa che è stato un periodo che sono venuti i polacchi [cosacchi] qua, e avevano coi cavalli tutti i suoi mezzi e si sono fermati qua e poi sono andati su per San Quirino, forse sono stati mitragliati dai inglesi perché qua gli inglesi aveva più potere degli americani. Poi ti dico della base americana qua. Quando son stata liberata, prima sono venuti gli inglesi a liberarla, poi sono, poco tempo dopo sono arrivati gli americani. Gli americani hanno messo la base, la base aerea di Aviano. E noi possiamo, mai nessun contrasto con loro, sono stati smistati a fare il suo mestiere a noi ah sì anzi avevamo il piacere di vederli. Poi spiegavano questa cosa. Io vado avanti, così capiscono cosa vuol dire, quando abbiamo visto gli Americani inglesi siamo stati molto contenti.
MDB: E quando scattava l’allarme, cosa, cosa succedeva?
ER: Cosa?
MDB: Quando suonava l’allarme, la sirena d’allarme.
ER: Oh, non suonava l’allarme, guardi, niente.
MDB: No?
ER: No, perché qua non bombardavano. Venivano su dall’Adriatico, prima su dall’Oceano Indiano e andavano su, attraversavano l’Africa là, penso là, e poi venivano su la, imboccavano l’Adriatico e su diretti per l’Adriatico, sopra l’Adriatico, non c’era contraerea, non c’era niente e venivano su, e passavano e andavano su diritti su in Germania. Poi il ritorno non veniva giù di qua, andavano in Inghilterra, tornavano a caricarli di nuovo per bombardare, tornare indietro e bombardare. Perché la Germania era rimasta tutta a pezzi, eh!
MDB: Ehm, e prima della guerra, si ricorda cosa faceva, aveva fratelli, sorelle? I suoi genitori cosa facevano prima della guerra?
ER: Oh i miei genitori. Mio papà era in America, mia mamma era qua, abitava qua con le mie sorelle e mio fratello. Però mio fratello non è stato in guerra perché mio fratello, un anno prima che cominci la guerra è stato richiesto in Germania, perché faceva il falegname. Era a Friedrichshaven e là, è sempre stato là fino alla guerra. Ha sempre lavorato in Germania per i tedeschi. Poi quando è venuto indietro, è venuto indietro per la Francia, mio fratello. Però, come ti dico, altre cose. Io ho visto sai cosa anche. Che quando a Trieste, Trieste cercavano di lasciarlo agli slavi, agli iugoslavi. Ed è intervenuto perché il signor Churchill aveva proprio, come si dice, Trieste perché vada in mano agli iugoslavi. Invece sono, poi sono arrivati gli americani. Io ero a Pordenone che avevano messo i treni che venivano arrivavano e gli americani, gli americani hanno bloccato tutto e Trieste è rimasta italiana. Hai capito?
MDB: Ehm.
ER: Dimmi.
MDB: Cantavate qualche canzone, qualche, facevate qualche preghiera durante?
ER: No, no, non si usava qua.
MDB: Ehm, non so, ha qualche altra, si ricorda qualcos’altra, qualcos’altra da raccontarmi riguardo a?
ER: Io posso dire, quello che mi è successo a me.
MDB: Racconti pure.
ER: Dunque un giorno, eravamo quattro di noi, tre erano del ’25, io ero del ’26, era settembre, siamo andati su per la campagna, andavo a prender uva sai, su, dove c’era qualche vigneto. Sul ritorno, sull’incrocio della via maestra, quell’incrocio che è qua su sai, quando vai su verso Via Cervell, quell’incrocio, quando c’è quell’incrocio lì, poi vai su, vai su verso la campagna ma vai dai su vabbè, là succede torniamo indietro a piedi era di domenica [pause] siamo sulla strada, sull’incrocio, vediamo che la via maestra viene una camionetta col mitra, si col mitra, col mitra, colla mitragliatrice sopra coi tedeschi poi c’hann visto [Mimics orders shouted in German] la lingua non si capiva. Si sono fermati lì faceva adesso c’è un giardino lì, faceva angolo così, si sono messi là, sopra eran due quelli lì, uno l’han impiccato in piazza, il giorno dietro, e l’altro è stato ucciso su per Bicon, sai Bicon, sicché fermati solo ti giuro due di loro col mitra ci hann toccato armi non ce ne avevamo e hann detto ‘andate, andate pure’. Sicchè veniamo giù per la Via el Zervell quando siamo con quell’osteria là erano tutti che giocavano a carte. Siamo andati dentro scappate che sono i tedeschi che vanno a rastrellare e io sono andato, lasciato la borsa e sono andato a casa mia. Quando ero a casa mia io ho sentito [makes a machine gun noise] in piazza, adesso ho detto ‘ammazzano qualcheduno!’. Succede che quando, gli altri sono andati, sono i miei amici che eravamo assieme, sono andati ognuno per conto suo, io sono venuto a casa. Ho sentito [unclear] e la figlia, e succede perché dopo quella cosa che è successo dopo l’ho saputa da uno che era in Argentina con me, un mio paesano, che è scappato per poco, per poco. Perché è successo questo: hanno bloccato il cinema, una volta dal cinema in piazza c’era una mula davanti, era una folla, i cancelli erano tutti aperti e il cinema, erano dentro al cinema solo che arrivano i tedeschi e questa, sempre questa camionetta. E tutti cercano di scappare di qua, di là.
MDB: Ci fermiamo un attimo. Allora riprendiamo. Stava raccontando.
ER: Allora succede che questo. Che quando siamo, sì, io sono a casa mia e sento una mitragliata.
Unknown speaker: porta chiusa.
ER: Bene.
Unknown speaker: devo far el giro de qua, porta chiusa.
ER: Uno era, erano diversi partigiani dentro. Sicchè lui, questo qua che ti dico io, era scappato, e l’hanno preso, l’hanno messo sulla camionetta, assieme con quei due che avevano lì uccisi e anche lui dovevano ucciderlo perché avevano trovato la pistola. Questa me la raccontata lui. Sono rimasto quando me l’ha detto ‘lei non porta’. Arrivato lo hanno detto sicchè uno dei partigiani va di dietro per la via Nazzario Sauro con la bicicletta per andare ad avvertire altri partigiani che erano giu’ per cortina o giù di là. Questo quà prende la bicicletta, prende la strada per andare giù in cortina dentro il municipio. Quando in piazza erano lì con la camionetta han visto uno di corso in bicicletta, han cercato di sparargli, ma poi non han potuto perché c’era il municipio però di là era l’altro lato aperto. Quando lui è arrivato ha imboccato la strada per andare giù han cominciato [makes a machine gun noise] hann ucciso. Quello era un Raffin come mi chiamo io. E’ caduto nella canale, c’era la canaletta d’acqua, è caduto là. E così è successo. Hai capito, l’errore?
MDB: E se dovesse descrivere diciamo il periodo con qualche emozione, che cosa, che emozioni userebbe?
ER: Di che, di cosa, non ho capito, non capiso.
MDB: Se dovesse descrivere quel periodo con qualche emozione, tipo paura, tristezza, cosa userebbe?
ER: Sempre paura, caro, sempre paura.
Angela Piccin: Tanta paura, sempre.
ER: Sempre paura.
MDB: [unclear] Un giorno succede che le voci dicevano che sta avvenendo un rastrellamento, e la gioventù sai. Sicché bene mi dice la mia cugina che abitava di là ‘Ettore, ti dico io se c’è qualcuno la mattina presto’. Sai perche’ quando sei giovane, dorme di più la domenica, boh, niente. La domenica dietro, no, l’altra domenica, abbiamo detto, eravamo d’accordo col prete è siamo andati a dormire sopra la chiesa, abbiamo passato la notte là e poi torno indietro, niente.. Va bene, sai, la domenica dopo è successo che erano, son venute sicché mia cugina mi ha avvertito e io sono scappato. Sono andato da mia sorella che c’aveva, sopra il granaio aveva un, come una cameretta col, proprio col balcone e là, son rimasto là. Ma gli altri venivano non so, se c’era a casa mio padre, portavano via mio padre perché se non mi trovavano a me perché c’avevano una lista. E allora è andata liscia. E ho saputo della cosa qua, del, dei tedeschi in quella volta che è stato al cinema uno che mi ha detto, mi ha spiegato, mio paesano, che qua lui, lui era stato preso, sei stato fortunato ho detto perché ‘vara, perche’ era la pelle sicura eh!’ [unclear] Non era, non bisognava avere avvocati, non c’era niente da fare. Ah no.
MDB: Ha qualcos’altro da aggiungere, non so, vuole raccontare qualche altro aneddoto, che si ricorda?
ER: Eh sono quelle che cose, perché sì io non sono mai stato tanto, non andavo tanto in giro io. Perché meno che andavo in giro, eh! Perché dico anche una cosa. Quando sei giovane ti viene neanche la voglia di vedere quelle cose là, perché la prima cosa che mi ha, la prima, la principante è stato che io non andavo fuori di casa però ho sentito che è stato impiccato in piazza questo, ho detto a mia mamma ‘adesso io vado a vedere’ e sono andato di lì piano piano sul difuori e sulla curva la via si vedeva il municipio, si vedeva quello là appeso. E son venuto via perché ero, una roba, perché qua erano i fascisti. Però altra, ti dico un’altra cosa. Però anche i tedeschi, quelli che erano qua, quelli che erano qua alle scuole, per questi portavano rifornimenti sul fronte. Perché giù in Italia c’era il fronte, e quando, e questi loro non facevano niente a noi. E loro avevano un rifornimento del coso, del materiale doveva succedere in guerra. Però ti dico un’altra. Che sono rimasto male anche sai perché? Perché dove c’è il bar dietro al campanile, una volta c’era il consorzio agrario. Lo gestiva mio cognato. Senonché mio cognato un giorno mi dice ’Ettore, vien a darmi una mano’. Che là prendevano su, il girasole sai, io per girarlo, punto in bianco i balconi erano aperti e le scuole, tutto là, fuori da scuola erano due di guardia, due tedeschi, [unclear], viene giù di una piazza vestito da partigiano col mitra e con la bicicletta. Erano gli ultimi giorni della guerra, erano, sì, era per finire. Senonche’ questo qua viene giù, ti chiamano fuori tre di loro, sai, loro perché noi avevamo i balconi al piano terra perché eravamo lì davanti dalla scuola, l’hanno fatto prima gli hanno levato le armi che aveva e poi, sui locali che son di qua, l’han incantonato [?] e poi gli hanno sparato, tre di loro [makes a machine gun noise] è stata paura, caro, quello che mi ricordo. Non posso ricordarmi tutto, sai? Tante cose eh, tanti anni. L’ho detto: di queste qua non mi sono mai dimenticato. Anche degli aerei tutto. Io non ho mai visto tanti aerei come, mi davvero, ma facevano rumore assai, tutta la mattina. [pause] Ciò, andavano sei per sei sai, e tutti carichi eh. E gerano, le fortezze volanti, sono e sarebbero quelli che hanno messo la bomba atomica là in coso, in Giappone, sì, questi era, quel tipo qua, quel tipo qua, di quello che ho sentito. All’inizio era un po’ più grossi di queste. [unclear] Eh, dai caro mio!
AP: Gera una paura, paura per tutto!
ER: Le squadriglie, Madonna! E gera tuti quei aerei la! E sai, son tanti anni, non mi ricordo più tanto, tanti , io non, non mi son mai messo fuori di casa, mai! Io sono sempre stato chiuso qua, o da mia sorella che abitava in Via Nazario Sauro, sono sempre stato, hai capito? Di quello che so io, che perche loro.
AP: Perche quando c’e’ la guerra bisogna esser contenti.
ER: Noi si sapeva le cose, sai perché? Mio cognato aveva una, la radio. Era un portare [?] abbastanza buono. Mettiamo le onde corte e si prendeva London. Faceva tutto [hums the the first notes of Beethoven's 5th Symphony] era, loro ci spiegavano in italiano e se no Radio Mosca prendevamo. E sapevamo certe cose, anche del fronte, tutte ste cose. Quelle erano le cose che non si potevano sapere qua.
MDB: Bene, se non ha altro da aggiungere, io spengo il registratore. Non so, ha qualcos’altro ancora? Si ricorda ancora qualcosa?
ER: Se mi viene in mente, ti chiamo.
MDB: Va bene. Allora io spengo qui, la ringrazio per l’intervista.
ER: Sì.
MDB: E grazie di tutto.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ettore Raffin
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Ettore Raffin describes his early life in wartime Cordenons, his father being in America and his brother at Friedrichshafen. Remembers watching masses of aircraft heading north en route to targets in Germany. Maintains that bombers took off from bases in the Indian Ocean. Mentions the frightening presence of "Pippo" which bombed and strafed the nearby railway line. Stresses constant fear and recalls public executions, roundups and anti-partisan repression. Mentions occupation by Cossacks and remembers clandestine short wave radio listening to London and Moscow. Recalls the end of the war and highlights the multinational character of Allied occupation forces.
Creator
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Marco Dalla Bona
Date
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2016-12-10
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:23:07 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ARaffinE161210
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Cordenons
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Pippo
round-up
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/71/718/AMagnaniT170303.2.mp3
79ada1c6e318efb07ff780ad71942b47
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Magnani, Tullio
Tullio Magnani
T Magnani
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Tullio Magnani who reminisces his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Magnani, T
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il Signor Tullio Magnani. Siamo a Pavia, è il 3 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo il Signor Magnani per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Magnani, vuole ricordarci i suoi anni durante?
TM: Dunque, sì, gli anni trascorsi dalla guerra in avanti.
FA: Esatto.
TM: Allora, prima di tutto, vengo da una famiglia di lavoratori. Naturalmente ho annusato il sapore dell’antiregime di cui si viveva allora. I miei genitori erano nettamente contrari al fascismo ma naturalmente non ho avuto neanche problemi a scuola. Sapevano chi era il papà, che è stato considerato un sovversivo comunista, ma per la verità nel periodo scolastico fatto durante il fascismo non ho avuto noie. Nel 1944, il 4 di settembre le superfortezze volanti americane e inglesi, alleate insomma, hanno prodotto un grosso bombardamento a Pavia e noi che abitavamo in Via Milazzi [Milazzo], della parte destra del fiume Ticino, siamo rimasti senza casa. Ci siamo salvati perché eravamo scappati nei boschi vicini. Naturalmente io e la mia famiglia ci siamo ritrovati nel territorio di Travacò a pochi chilometri da Pavia e da lì è cominciata la mia permanenza, gli ultimi mesi di guerra fino al 1945 a Mezzano Siccomario una casa che ci ha ospitato perché eravamo senza niente, eravamo ridotti proprio, io addirittura ero a piedi nudi quel giorno là. Però nel frattempo i miei genitori mi avevano mandati a casa di una famiglia, Lorenzo Alberti, che era un noto esponente dell’antifascismo pavese e che verrà arrestato nel 1944 con tutto il comitato del CLN provinciale e spedito in Germania. Ritornerà vivo e vegeto nel 1900, nel lontano 1945 dalla Germania. E naturalmente ero andato lì come garzone di bottega perché lui vendeva le macchine per scrivere e naturalmente faceva la, curava tutto l’andamento delle macchine che aveva nei vari uffici durante il regime fascista e la presenza del comando tedesco. E accompagnando l’operaio che doveva fare manodopera alle macchine da scrivere, io portavo una borsa vuota, leggerissima all’ingresso, pesante quando uscivo. Naturalmente controllato era l’operaio, io che avevo quattordici anni sia i fascisti che i tedeschi non mi perseguivano, non mi, non facevano i controlli. Poi abbiamo saputo che in quella borsa lì uscivano i bollini per l’approvigionamento degli alimenti. Perché in quel periodo dovete sapere che c’era contingentato i generi alimentari. Naturalmente questi bollini per il tesseramento andavano alla resistenza ecco. Quello era la cosa che io ho scoperto dopo la liberazione. Naturalmente di questo, di questi ricordi che ho avuto lì e anche nel comune di Travacò li ho messi giù, insomma i ricordi c’ho un fascicolo che consegno anche all’intervistatore. Ci sono alcuni particolari. Particolare è che un bel giorno, una mattina, l’operaio di questa ditta, Alberti, mi dice di andare presso l’istituto di anatomia umana dell’Università di Pavia a ritirare qualcosa. Io arrivo all’istituto di anatomia umana e a questo custode chiedo il nome e questo uomo già un po’ avanti con l’età, mi consegna una busta gialla con scritto ’Regia Università di Pavia’. Questa busta la riporto in negozio al mattino. Nel pomeriggio sempre l’operaio mi dice che doveva farmi fare una commissione fuori Pavia, e ha preso quella busta che avevo consegnato al mattino, l’ha messo dentro a una cartella, tipo quella di scuola, di cartone e m’ha detto: ‘Vai a Travacò a portare questa busta, devi andare all’inizio di Travacò alla frazione Frua e cercare la signora Brusca’ che poi ho capito si chiamava Bruschi, la chiamavano Brusca, io dico: ’sì sì sono pratico di quei posti lì perché ero, sono sfollato lì, in quei posti lì’, infatti non ho fatto fatica a trovarla una donna anziana con un cappellaccio di paglia in testa. E io dico: ’io devo consegnare questa a un signore che c’è qui’. E lui m’ha, lei m’ha detto: ‘È quel signore seduto su una cariola.’ Era un omino un po’, non troppo alto con un grosso paletò, che poi ho riconosciuto come segretario del Partito Comunista provinciale in, clandestino, l’ho ritrovato nell’immediato dopoguerra. Era Carlo Zucchella.
FA: Ah.
TM: E quella busta, ‘io devo consegnare questa roba a questo signore, sì, sì, io l’aspetto. Gliel’ho data. Era un’altra missione che mi han fatto fare. E questo mi è, mi è ancora caro ricordare quel territorio lì del Travacò adesso. L’intervistatore venne mandato dall’ex sindaco Boiocchi che abbiamo una forte amicizia e ricordo sempre quel territorio anche perché sono legato a tutta la gente che ho trovato lì, che purtroppo non ci sono più tanti. Poi ci sono anche altri episodi sempre fatti attraverso la bottega di Lorenzo Alberti. Mi dicono di andare in piazzetta, vicino alle scuole Mazzini a Pavia e io gli ho detto: ’Sì, sì’. Erano le mie scuole elementari, le conosco. Bene, proprio di fronte alla scuola vai su all’ultimo piano e devi portare questo era anche lì, una busta, una busta più pesante di quelle che ho portato prima. E in quella casa c’era un tavolo da disegno, che usano i disegnatori. E c’era un uomo che era là che m’aspettava. E c’era, a disegnare c’era uno che poi m’han detto che era un sordomuto. Era il disegnatore. Anche qui vengo a sapere, dopo la guerra, che questo signore era Cino del Duca, un grande editore di giornali e di riviste. Era anche lui membro della resistenza. E i ricordi sono tanti, gli episodi sono tanti. Sono ancora vivo anche per miracolo anche perché durante queste azioni, che io nulla sapevo l’importanza di quello che facevo, se venivo beccato non ero qui a raccontarlo.
FA: Certo.
TM: E è arrivata la liberazione e io con i miei quindici anni mi sono divertito come gli altri. Sono arrivati le truppe inglesi, la prima camionetta americana giù nel Ponte Vecchio di Pavia e ho ripreso a vivere come dovevamo vivere, a noi ragazzi alla nostra età ci è mancato cinque anni di vita.
[telophone rings]
FA: Allora, prima della pausa stavamo dicendo della liberazione.
TM: La liberazione...
FA: È tornato a vivere in borgo?
TM: No, non eravamo più in borgo perché la casa non ce l’avevamo più. Mio nonno era un pescatore, aveva le barche, tutto, è andato tutto in fumo, tutto, distrutto tutto, non avevamo più niente. Mia mamma e mio papà han trovato un appartamento vicino Piazzale Ponte Ticino ma in città. E lì è arrivata la prima camionetta americana, mi ricordo sempre, questo giovane americano, noi naturalmente ragazzi ci siamo andati tutto intorno avevamo fame e loro distribuivano cioccolato e questo qua si chiamava Dino perché era figlio di italiani, no, e aveva un sacco enorme. M’ha detto se trovavo una donna che gli avesse lavato la biancheria. Io subito gli ho detto: ‘c’è mia mamma’. E lì vicino abitavamo e ho detto, ho chiamato mia mamma, c’è questo soldato americano e ha detto che se gli lavava la biancheria c’era una cassa di sapone. Quando lui ha fatto vedere la cassa di sapone, mia mamma è saltata dalla gioia. Per dire i momenti e, ricordo ancora e ricordo anche questo fatto di questo americano che si chiamava, poi c’ha dato tanta roba da mangiare. E naturalmente lui poi è andato via. E’ stato lì due o tre giorni, ha ritirato la biancheria pulita e stirata e con grande dispiacere di mia mamma non l’abbiamo visto più. Io voglio raccontare, questo racconto dovrebbero sentirlo anche milioni di giovani perché la guerra c’ha tolto cinque anni di vita a noi ragazzi. È scoppiata che avevo dieci anni, è finita che ne avevo quindici. La fame totale, lo studio non c’ho più pensato, era talmente la gioia della liberazione che molti ragazzi miei amici non andavano più a scuola. Poi pian piano abbiamo ripreso ma poi m’ha preso un’altra cosa, la politica. E questa politica mi ha preso talmente che non ho proseguito gli studi e medie, liceo e avanti, questo. Però ho sempre chiesto e ottenuto di sapere, di volere, di sapere le cose, ho fatto uno sforzo io coi libri e anche. Il partito voleva dire tante rinunce, tante sacrifici ma il partito mi ha dato molto nel senso che nell’istruzione poi sono andato a fare dei corsi prima brevi poi brevi, poi abbastanza lunghi per cui ho fatto il mio percorso di apprendimento scolastico. Mi sono sposato, tre figli, quattro nipoti, avevamo un, abbiamo rilevato un negozio che era di mio papà ma non andavamo bene, sono entrato [clears throat], sono stato assunto dopo tante peripezie in Comune, perché voglio dire anche questo: ho partecipato a un concorso per agenti daziari e quando sono arrivato agli esami orali per essere ammesso, dopo aver presentato lo scritto, mi è stato detto che non avrei, non sarei mai stato assunto perché, essendo un corpo armato, non potevo accedere a quel posto lì per via di una vecchia legge fascista che impediva di entrare in questo corpo armato agli iscritti al partito comunista, o anche ai figli dei comunisti. Per cui però ho fatto un po’ di lavoro saltuario nelle scuole a sostituire alcuni bidelli ammalati e così via, insomma il comune mi ha sempre tenuto da conto finché poi è venuto il momento, sono entrato nel corpo vigili urbani come tesoriere e ho fatto per ventidue anni il cassiere al comando vigili di Pavia. Ma prima sono stato anche un dirigente della Gioventù Comunista e ho sempre mantenuto queste idee. Purtroppo adesso non c’è più niente, ma ho cercato di educare la mia famiglia a questi ideali e sono stato anche premiato perché sono contento dei miei figli, dei miei nipoti.
FA: Va bene.
TM: E adesso ho davanti un giovane che mi intervista e sono felice di poter rispondere a questo giovane che tra l’altro si è laureato con un personaggio che a me molto caro che è il professor Lombardi e il professor Guderzo.
FA: Tornando un attimo indietro nel, diciamo nel tempo del suo racconto, potrebbe provare a ricordare, a raccontarci quella giornata del 4 settembre?
TM: La giornata del 4 settembre ha dei precedenti. Intanto la guerra è scoppiata nel ‘40 e non so adesso con precisione ma noi da Pavia vedevamo i lampi dei bombardamenti di Milano di notte, Milano è a un tiro di schioppo da qui in linea d’aria, si vedevano i lampi, bombardavano Milano e poi venivamo a sapere che verso il ’42-’43 bombardavano anche i ponti del Po che collegavano Pavia. E noi stavamo su anche, poi per noi era un, cioè era anche bello di notte, stavamo su tra noi gli uomini pochi perché erano tutti alle armi, e allora venivamo a sapere i problemi delle famiglie questa qui, quella là, quello lì, quello là, insomma vedevamo... poi arrivano i cacciabombardieri americani, bombardano la parte nord di Pavia, ma così dei raid, di, due, tre aerei che hanno sganciato alcune bombe e han fatto qualche morto nella zona di Porta Stoppa di Pavia, la parte nord di Pavia. Quindi prima del 4 di settembre Pavia era stata
FA: Già.
TM: Aggredita dai, ma poi noi vedevamo che sull’argine del Ticino la milizia fascista aveva fatto delle postazioni con delle mitragliatrici antiaeree, che poi si sono rivelate in niente, insufficiente, erano giocattoli rispetto al momento, insomma c’erano già delle armi migliori, cioè le avevano i tedeschi, ma queste qui, e noi le vedevamo, noi capivamo che erano mitragliatrici per contrastare gli aerei. E il 4 di settembre c’è un precedente nel senso che due giorni prima a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti cariche di bombe passavano su Pavia verso il nord, cioè andavano verso Milano, dicevano che andavano in Germania perché Milano non la bombardavano in quel periodo lì.
Interviewee’s wife: Buongiorno.
TM: La mattina di, del 4, mia moglie, ah questo ragazzo pensa Antonia.
AM: Piacere, Antonia.
FA: Filippo, piacere.
TM: C’è acceso. La mattina del 4 di settembre del ’44 mio papà si trovava al di là del fiume perché lavorava in fabbrica. Mia mamma stava cucinando qualcosa. Noi ragazzi quando passavano quegli aerei lì andavamo nel bosco adiacente lungo l’argine del Borgo Ticino per cui dopo che sono passate a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti è arrivato il bombardamento. È stato un disastro, sembrava la fine del mondo non ci, l’atmosfera era rossa dai mattoni, picchiavamo contro le piante per scappare, insomma. Poi dopo è venuto anche il mitragliamento che è stato micidiale perché ha mitragliato verso la parte est di Pavia. Io come un automa come altri nostri amici ci siamo dispersi e siamo fuggiti verso Travacò, lungo l’argine verso Travacò e io sanguinavo, non me ne accorgevo. Nel pomeriggio ho ritrovato i miei genitori che io non pensavo più. Mio papà si era salvato perché era al di là del fiume. Mia mamma è stata salvata dal crollo, la casa non era completamente crollata, e per cui ci siamo ritrovati alla frazione Battella di Travacò Siccomario io, i miei genitori e tanti altri. Poi naturalmente i nostri genitori, tutti quelli, i borghigiani, cittadini che hanno perso la casa, molti sono arrivati nel comune di Travacò e hanno organizzato qualcosa per, insomma. [background noise] Abbiamo fatto due notti in un fienile, poi dopo siamo arrivati a Travacò e a Mezzano. Il podestà di allora, un certo Bruschi che, pur essendo fascista ci ha molto aiutati, siamo andati nelle scuole di Mezzano e i nostri genitori e tutti gli altri adulti hanno organizzato una mensa, son arrivati i generi alimentari, c’è stato un enorme, una cucina per cuocere i cibi. Dopo una settimana che eravamo lì, un giorno pioveva a dirotto, sono arrivati la Feldgendarmeria tedesca, che sarebbe la polizia militare tedesca, con un sidecar, questi due uomini mettevano paura, grandi, grossi, con questo soprabito di cuoio nero, ci hanno imposto di lasciare immediatamente le scuole e ci siam trovati in mezzo alla strada che pioveva. Eravamo un centinaio, figli, genitori, ma subito è arrivata la solidarietà del paese e ci hanno ricoverato un po’ di qui un po’ di là. Insomma la cosa è andata bene insomma, non c’è stato altro e devo dire che io da ragazzo mi ricordo ho vissuto lì fino, da settembre a due mesi prima della guerra, un paese dove, tenuto conto che mio papà era un segnalato come sovversivo, problemi non ne abbiamo mai avuti, quindi la cosa. Poi la liberazione è giunta che abitavamo già a Pavia.
FA: Ha parlato di generi alimentari.
TM: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda da dove, chi era, non so c’era un ente?
TM: I generi alimentari ce li portava il comune di Pavia.
FA: Ah, il comune di Pavia.
TM: Sì. Però dicevano, io ho saputo, che dovevamo procurarci un mezzo per arrivare da Travacò a Pavia a prender la roba, farina, riso, pasta, no. E questo podestà fascista Bruschi Pierino ha messo a disposizione un carro col cavallo e uno di noi mi ricordo ancora chi era andava a Pavia a prelevare la roba. E sono arrivate anche le brande. Il comune di Pavia ha messo a disposizione le brande e i generi alimentari. Devo dirlo con schiettezza. Cioè, pur nel disastro, il comune di Pavia è stato attento a queste cose.
FA: A queste esigenze. Prima ha detto che lungo gli argini vi erano delle, diciamo delle postazioni antiaeree, delle mitragliatrici.
TM: Sì, sì.
FA: Erano, vi erano soldati italiani o tedeschi?TM: Italiani. Erano quelli della milizia fascista.
FA: Ah, le milizie.
TM: Io, noi li conoscevamo anche perché alcuni abitavano lì vicino. La milizia fascista eran della gente che, la miseria era tanta, l’occupazione era, andavano nella milizia, alcuni andavano per sopravvivere.
FA: Per sopravvivere.
TM: Perché poi portavano a casa il rancio che gli davano in caserma. Io avevo due amici di figli, erano figli di due fascisti che erano nella milizia. E han fatto delle piazzole che adesso nell’argine non si vedono più e hanno piazzato queste mitragliatrici. Noi andavamo là a vederle eh. Erano rivolte verso là.
FA: Verso là.
TM: Però ci hanno detto gli esperti che erano stati a fare il militare che queste mitragliatrici agli aerei americani non gli facevano nulla. Soltanto però qui in questo, più più a nord di questo rione c’era una postazione di antiaerea tedesca, quella lì sì era..
FA: Vicina al cimitero forse.
TM: No, dopo.
FA: Ah, più in là?
TM: Più in alto. Addirittura c’è, lì c’è stato un, c’è uno stele che ricorda un antifascista che è andato a parlamentare con i tedeschi il giorno della liberazione per evitare che, perché loro minacciavano di bombardare tutto, è andato lì a parlamentare con i tedeschi, l’hanno ucciso. C’è ancora lo stele lì, in Piazza, Piazza Fratelli Cervi.
FA: Ah.
TM: Sì. Beh volevo dire che sì, quello che m’ha chiesto lei sulle piazzole erano nell’argine che dal Borgo va al Canarazzo, che va a Carbonara al Ticino, c’erano le piazzole della [laughs]
FA: Ah.
TM: E poi dopo il bombardamento del Ponte della Libertà che chiamavano dell’Impero una arcata è stata centrata dagli aerei americani e han fatto, i tedeschi han fatto il traghetto, traghetto con dei barconi, traghettavano e traghettavano dopo il ponte della ferrovia che era crollato anche lui. E noi andavamo a vedere tutte queste robe qui. Eravamo ragazzi. Il giorno della liberazione eravamo lì. Vedevamo i vigili urbani con la fascia tricolore il 25 di aprile in bicicletta. La città oramai era praticamente in mano agli insorti. I tedeschi si riunivano nel Castello Visconteo d’accordo con le forze partigiane. I fascisti erano scappati, c’era ancora qualcuno che per esempio dalla centrale dell’università un fascista ha sparato, poi è stato preso. E noi abbiam vissuto anche quello, da ragazzi eravamo lì rischiando anche perché c’erano dei proiettili vaganti. Fino al 26 aprile quando sono arrivate le, proprio le formazioni partigiane dell’Oltrepò Pavese dirette. Che poi il professor Lombardi ha fatto un bel libro dove parlavano di queste cose, della missione che i partigiani dell’Oltrepò Pavese hanno fatto, a Dongo hanno, quando hanno catturato Benito Mussolini.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Io le ho vissute con l’entusiasmo dei quindic’anni e non ho mollato più.
FA: Eh sì, quindi eh, poi lei dopo quel il primo bombardamento diciamo che ha subito vi siete spostati a Travacò. Avete continuato ad avere notizie, a vedere i seguenti bombardamenti sul borgo?
TM: No, noi, mia mamma e mio papà venivano, io rimanevo a Travacò venivo naturalmente a vedere di recuperare le cose che c’erano sotto i bombardamenti. Devo tenere conto che mio nonno aveva una bella attività di lavoro. Intanto erano lavandai, lavava la, erano lavandai il nonno e la nonna, avevano i clienti che portavano la biancheria da lavare. E mio nonno aveva un torchio, lo chiamavamo un torchio, era una centrifuga per strizzare i, che poi è venuta la lavatrice, ma era questo enorme cilindro che girava per strizzare i panni delle lavandaie. Anche lì l’abbiamo perso, abbiamo perso cinque barche, abbiamo perso molte reti da pescatori, insomma siamo stati molto danneggiati, siamo rimasti. Poi mio papà si è dato da fare per, come tutti, ricostruirsi una vita, cominciato a fare il commerciante di frutta e verdura e così.
FA: Ha detto che suo papà lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino.
TM: Lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino che era la ditta Cercil. Era una ditta specializzata che i tedeschi non la trasferivano in Germania. L’hanno fatto lavorare in Italia. Mio papà era preoccupato perché molti operai specializzati venivano trasferiti in Germania a lavorare per l’industria bellica tedesca. Per fortuna quella fabbrica lì non è stata smontata e ha continuato a lavorare fino agli ultimi giorni di guerra lì. E per io papà era un bel rifugio oltre che posto di lavoro per vivere era, cioè tenuto conto che lui era considerato un sovversivo, come li chiamavano stato mandato al confino sei mesi perché cantavano il primo maggio all’osteria e per lui era una salvezza eh avere un posto di lavoro così. Aveva una tessera per poter fare i turni di notte perché c’era il coprifuoco. Dopo le nove e mezza di sera non si poteva più girare. Se ti prendevano senza documenti venivi fucilato. Io ho vissuto tutte queste robe qui. Andavamo al cinema alle sette di sera perché era l’ultimo spettacolo. Andavamo tutti al cinema per scaldarci perché non avevamo più niente da bruciare in casa. Mancava la legna, mancava tutto.
FA: E la fabbrica di suo papà non è mai stata toccata da nessun bombardamento, nessun danno?
TM: La fabbrica, no, la fabbrica di mio papà si trova vicinissimo il viale lungo il Ticino e si trovava in Via Della Rocchetta. Che adesso han fatto, in quel cortile lì, han fatto abitazioni civili ma era la fabbrica Cerliani che l’altra è più avanti è stata fatta qui al Chiozzo c’è una fabbrica Cerliani.
FA: E producevano?
TM: E producevano filiere, meccanica, meccanica fine, roba non so. Io non sono pratico, non sono mai entrato in una fabbrica. Era proprio. Parlava, papà parlava di ‘ho l’esonero’ cioè non sono esonerato a non andare in Germania con gli operai
FA: Certo.
TM: E perché smantellavano le fabbriche i tedeschi e trascinavano gente in Germania a lavorare. Molti non rientravano più. Beh, da quel punto di vista lì ci è andata bene.
FA: Voglio farle un’altra domanda. Nella zona intorno a casa sua e del borgo, c’erano dei rifugi antiaerei, c’erano?
TM: No, in borgo non c’erano rifugi antiaerei. Noi scappavamo, i boschi dietro a via Milazzo, ancora adesso, c’erano i boschi. C’è il bosco fino a verso Travacò e noi ci [unclear], intanto sì rispetto ai bombardamenti l’abbiam fatta franca però se mitragliavano il bosco non era tanto, ti prendevano. No, a Pavia c’erano delle case, dei palazzi con, io ci sono stato perché andavamo a scuola, con i rifugi antiaerei che con le bombe americane erano, pff! E perché hanno centrato il borgo? Il borgo l’hanno centrato per via del Ponte Vecchio. Perché, se guardiamo bene la mappa di Pavia, i primi due ponti a saltare per aria nettamente sono stati quello delle ferrovie e quello cosiddetto dell’Impero che è Viale della, che è quello della Libertà
FA: Libertà.
TM: Mentre invece il Ponte Vecchio proprio per essere coperto, dalle fotografie inglesi che hanno fatto non veniva fuori netto il ponte, per cui ecco perché la parte di Borgo Ticino ha avuto dei danni con le bombe. Che loro volevano centrare il Ponte Vecchio, l’hanno centrato ma non l’hanno fatto saltare in aria. Ponte Vecchio, quello preromano, quello romano pre spagnolo, non è mai andato giù nettamente come non gli altri ponti. Per cui, no, non c’erano rifugi antiaerei come li ho visti io, in città, nei palazzi, dove si andava in cantina e queste cantine erano sostenute da pali, da travi, sacchetti di sabbia, no, in borgo non c’era niente.
FA: Insomma, ci si doveva arrangiare.
TM: E’ stata una carneficina perché i morti sono stati tanti. Poi è saltata per aria, il bombardamento successivo, la parte della città dove, viale lungo il Ticino, cioè la Via Rezia, che è stata colpita a metà. Lì avevo la nonna e la zia che abitavano lì hanno perso la casa anche loro. Però essendo sui posti di lavoro in un’altra parte si son salvate.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, lei ha parlato prima del suo rapporto, del rapporto della sua famiglia con quel soldato americano ecco. Nonostante, diciamo il fatto che foste stati bombardati, questo vi ha?
TM: Ah per noi, gli abbiamo accolti con perché poi c’era questa atmosfera, caro giovane. Un po’ i fascisti ironicamente li chiamavano liberatori, tra virgolette, no, ma erano per noi, pur nella disgrazia. La guerra intanto non l’abbiamo, non c’entran niente gli americani, la guerra l’ha voluto il fascismo, per cui, vabbè, la mia famiglia, ma come in tutte le famiglie di gente povera, eravamo ridotti talmente male che aspettavamo gli americani. E devo aggiungere per inciso che noi, in Via Strada Nuova c’è ancora una farmacia che si chiama Farmacia Tonello. Un bel giorno sono arrivati i poliziotti in borghese, sono andati dentro da questo farmacista anziano, adesso vanno avanti i nipoti, e l’hanno arrestato, lo abbiamo saputo dopo, perché ascoltava Radio Londra. Radio Londra, io l’ho sentita, perché mio papà si sintonizzava alla sera c’era questo colonello Stevens che diceva [hums the beginning of Beethoven’s 5th Symphony] ‘Qui è Londra che parla’. Parlava in perfetto italiano e ci, ci aggiornavano. Parlavano anche dell’Armata Rossa che stava avvicinandosi alla Germania e parlavano anche che loro ormai erano arrivati anche in Italia, erano sbarcato giù, sapevamo tutto. E hanno arrestato il farmacista Tonello perché l’hanno colto in flagrante mentre ascoltava Radio Londra.
FA: Radio Londra.
TM: Naturalmente dopo due o tre giorni l’hanno rilasciato, era un uomo vecchio. Anche questo episodio ho sentito. E sì, Radio Londra trasmette. E noi, quel giorno che è arrivato, come detto, questa jeep americana, si è fermata nel piazzale pieno di macerie, eh noi ragazzi eravamo tutti attorno, per noi gli americani, intanto per la prima volta vedevamo gli americani, vedevamo gli inglesi, no. Gli Inglesi avevano nel loro esercito, avevano anche gli indiani col turbante e gli americani, questo americano si chiamava Dino, mi ricordo, non mi va via più dalla mente e per noi, lui, io avevo quindic’anni, questo soldato americano avrà avuto ventidue, ventitre anni, era un ragazzo come noi quasi insomma. Ci ha riempiti di cioccolato. Non potete, voi adesso non potete immaginare la contentezza che aveva il popolo italiano pur nelle macerie, pur, molti morivano di fame eh, perché ho saputo dopo, gli ospedali si sono riempiti perché la gente non mangiava. Io ero considerato uno scheletro. Io mi sono sposato con la mia compagna qui che ero sotto peso. Era il 1957. Ne portavo ancora le conseguenze, del mangiare che non abbiamo fatto. Per cui, loro ci hanno buttato giù la casa ma per noi ci hanno liberato.
FA: OK. Dopo.
TM: Viva gli alleati!
FA: Dopo il bombardamento del 4, è, ehm è tornato su in borgo o?
TM: Certo [emphasises], ci vado quasi tutti i giorni. Ho ancora qualche amico ma il più è il posto e naturalmente il territorio di Travacò. [pause] Ogni martedì, con i due o tre amici che ho ancora, andiamo in un’osteria di Travacò, non tanto per mangiare, possiamo mangiare anche a casa no, ma tanto per trovarci.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, può descriverci le devastazioni diciamo che ha subìto, le devastazioni che ha subìto il borgo?
TM: Dunque, prima di tutto io ho saputo, dopo, dopo quella mattina del quattro di settembre del ’44, siamo fuggiti, siamo fuggiti, siamo scappati, un po’ di qui, un po’ di là, come ho ricordato prima, a Travacò, ma i bombardamenti si sono susseguiti. C’è stato una carneficina perché poi la gente si spostava verso San Martino. Presente Via Dei Mille? E sono andati in un tunnel che attraversava la strada e questo tunnel è dalle parti di, via sempre di Via Dei Mille, all’altezza di Strada Persa. C’era questo tunnel e la gente, per loro era diventato un tunnel antiaereo. Molta gente è andato dentro in questo tunnel. Alcune bombe sono arrivate anche lì, ma non perché hanno saltato, hanno bucato la strada, una bomba è esplosa ai lati del tunnel, c’è stata una carneficina nel Borgo.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
TM: Sì, il piazzale attuale del borgo è stato tutto distrutto, chi lo vede adesso vede le case recentissime, solo la parte sinistra andando in là dove c’era la farmacia erano rimaste le vecchie case, per il resto son tutte nuove. Abbiamo perso degli amici lì, molti amici, ci giocavamo assieme. Nel mio cortile ci son stati dodici morti di anziani e gente appena arrivata. Ma la parte centrale [emphasises] del Borgo Ticino, cioè all’imboccatura del ponte vecchio, che c’è il piazzale che si chiama Ferruccio Ghinaglia, lì ho perso quattro o cinque ragazzi della mia età, non ci sono più, son rimasti lì. Per cui il borgo è, c’è un monumento lungo il Ticino voluto da un mio carissimo amico che adesso non c’è più, Calvi Agostino, che continuiamo a raccontare un po’ di cose sul calendario della AVIS tutti gli anni raccontiamo qualcosa del borgo, tutto lì. Naturalmente la Via Milazzo è stata salvata, salvo [emphasis] il mio cortile. Il mio cortile è stato l’ultimo a essere colpito da quella parte lì. Tutta la parte che va giù verso il Ticino si è salvata. Purtroppo noi siamo scappati, io non ho fatto più ritorno fin quando i miei genitori han trovato casa in città e anche lì un po’ ho stretto amicizia con i giovani del paese e mi ricordo, mia mamma aspettava mia sorella, che è molto più giovane di me e andavamo naturalmente siccome vivevamo in una stanza unica, meno male, era una stanza sia per dormire che per mangiare per cui, mentre mio papà era al lavoro, io e mia mamma andavamo in un’osteria a prenderci il cibo già pronto che ci cucinava per noi. Era bello insomma, vivevamo tranquilli in quel paese lì, trovavamo più da mangiare che non prima perché la campagna, insomma se ti dai da fare insomma, se hai i mezzi eh, perché se non hai i mezzi non c’è niente.
FA: Lei l’ha visto Pippo?
TM: Pippo, Pippo bombardava di notte. Bastava accendere un fiammifero che magari ti colpiva. Proprio davanti al mio cortile, se posso darti del tu no? Il mio intervistatore, come ti chiami di nome?
FA: Filippo.
TM: Filippo, ecco, caro Filippo, vai a fare un giro dopo. All’inizio di Via Milazzo, c’è il numero 9, è il mio cortile.
FA: Ah.
TM: Che ancora qualche fuori [muro] perimetrale, ancora la vecchia casa ristrutturate, dentro è tutto nuovo, perché è saltato per aria. Lì era il posto dove con le barche partivano di notte per andare a pescare. Caricavano le reti, erano sempre sei barche eh. Perché non era come il mare. Gettavano le reti nel fiume ma tiravano stando a terra gli,
FA: Ah.
TM: Per cui avevano bisogno di tanta manodopera, no. E avevano una lanterna, una lanterna a petrolio. È arrivato Pippo, ha lanciato uno spezzone, ha ucciso un uomo che, con un papà di un mio amico. Pippo ha colpito anche l’imbarcadero che adesso c’è dove c’è il ristorante Bardelli?
Fa: Sì.
TM: Lì c’era l’imbarcadero Negri. Pippo ha colpito anche lì. E devo dire che in una giornata bellissima come quella di ieri, a Travacò ero, ritornavamo da Pavia, io, mia mamma e mio papà che eravamo stati in prefettura a prendere qualcosa, ci davano un po’ di sostentamento, tutto a piedi eh. C’era un ricognitore inglese, un bimotore, che era talmente basso che si vedevano le figure degli uomini che c’erano dentro nella carlinga. E a volo radente eh. Noi ci siamo, ah beh la paura era tanta perché mitragliavano. A Cava Manara hanno mitragliato un corteo funebre, hanno mitragliato proprio il carro funebre. E non so, erano convinti che era una manifestazione di fascisti [laughs] o di tedeschi, vabbè e noi, si aveva paura anche di questi aerei che poi risultava un ricognitore. Sono quelli che facevano le fotografie, sempre inglesi erano. E quel ricognitore me lo ricordo sempre, una bestia sopra di noi, abbiam visto le figure degli uomini perché il bimotore aveva la carlinga senza motore, i due motori erano, sì, mi ricordo anche questo.
FA: Li avete visti quindi distintamente.
TM: Sì, li abbiamo visti benissimo e ci siamo scansati, ci siamo buttati giù a lato, io, mia mamma e mio papà. Eh sì, poi io ho sempre avuto paura di, sono rimasto scioccato. Andavo a nascondermi nei fossi asciutti del Travacò, uscivo sempre, io avevo il terrore di stare in casa fino a quando poi mi è passato ed è finita la guerra [laughs].
FA: Ho capito. Senta le faccio una domanda che...
TM: Sono qua.
FA: C’entra diciamo relativamente meno con il discorso che stavamo facendo. Lei nel ’48 era già all’interno del Partito Comunista?
TM: Ero già all’interno, devo dire che nel Partito Comunista il giorno della liberazione erano il 40, 25-26, i partigiani sono arrivati il 26-27, naturalmente si ballava si, c’era una grande confusione anche, il, ho visto, han portato un carico di fascisti che hanno fucilato in Piazza d’Italia, era la mattina del primo maggio o due maggio. E io, come ragazzo, ho aiutato, ho detto: ’ cià, vedete in Corso Mazzini, venite, venite aiutarci’, c’era un carretto dallo studio dell’avvocato Sinforiani che poi è stato eletto senatore della Repubblica trasferito un sacco di roba, cartacea no, dentro nelle casse con questo carretto del fruttivendolo li abbiam portati in Broletto. Il Broletto, bel palazzo eh, è stato occupato sia dai comunisti che dai socialisti, primo piano i comunisti, secondo piano i socialisti. Io naturalmente sono andato lì e ho partecipato a questo trasloco di documenti da Corso Mazzini e da allora sono entrato al Broletto aiutando questi partigiani che portavano la roba lì, si è instaurata la federazione comunista. Da allora ho frequentato, perché mio papà è diventato ambulante con un banco fisso di frutta e verdura in piazza, proprio di fronte al Broletto per cui vivevo lì e non ho mollato più. E allora non era ancora rinata la Federazione Giovanile Comunista perché è rinata nel ’49, io ho partecipato alla costituzione perché ero lì. Nel partito comunista se non avevi sedici anni non ti prendevano
FA: Ah!
ed eri considerato membro candidato, io ho ancora i documenti, e dovevi essere presentato da tre persone adulte perché allora la maggiore età si aveva a ventuno anni. Ma nel partito ti prendevano a sedici anni come membro candidato e ti davano la tessera ma eri oggetto di indagini, da dove venivi, chi eri e. Questo è importante. E sì, l’ho avuta, ma nel ’46, nel ’45 no, ero lì senza tessera. Ma avevamo il Fronte della Gioventù, che era un’organizzazione nata nella resistenza fatta di giovani liberali cattolici, comunisti, socialisti, era il Fronte della Gioventù. E abbiamo occupato i locali della ex-GIL, che adesso c’è il comando vigili di Pavia,
FA: Ah, sì.
TM: Là dalla curva. Sì siamo andati lì, abbiamo organizzato anche la balera, facevamo ballare, dappertutto si faceva ballare allora. Poi naturalmente noi eravamo comunisti. E nel ’48 ho partecipato al, alla battaglia elettorale che, la battaglia elettorale era una roba, bisognerebbe parlarne bene di queste robe, era una battaglia con i manifesti che la Democrazia Cristiana ci batteva tutti. Andavano ad attaccare i manifesti anche sotto le grondaie per via che loro avevano le scale delle chiese, è importante!
FA: Quindi belle lunghe.
TM: Lunghissime, che noi non avevamo. Noi potevamo al limite arrivare a tre metri. E poi loro avevano più mezzi.
FA: Bene.
TM: Ho partecipato a questa battaglia. Mi ricordo che il primo, abbiamo fatto una roba che, una roba da giovani. Il partito comunista ha fatto un bellissimo manifesto ‘Quo Vadis, dove vai, o Signore?’ e l’abbiamo messo sotto il portone del vescovado nottetempo. Però siamo stati individuati ma non siamo stati presi in flagrante e poi dopo ce l’han fatta pagare per il lancio dei volantini nei cinema. Si andava in guardina una notte, a lanciare i volantini nei cinema non autorizzati [emphasises] ti beccavano, andavi in guardina fin domani mattina.
[Doorbell rings]
TM: Tonia, guarda un po’. E, bisogna ricordarle queste cose, ai manifesti,
Unknown speaker: Chi è?
TM: il partito mi mandava in questura a portare i manifesti, bisognava metter la marca da bollo e venivano listati.
TM: Chi è?Ormai ci pensa lei, eh.
Unknown speaker: La signora Casella
TM: Venivano listati, bisognava andare in questura, allora c’erano le marche da bollo. Poi il partito mi mandava senza essere funzionario andavo con la corriera che si chiamava la Lombarda a .Milano con i soldi nella borsa a prendere le tessere. Era dove c’è la Mediobanca a Milano c’era l’Alto Commissariato Altitalia che per tutta l’Italia settentrionale c’erano le tessere e i bollini del partito e bisognava andare là con i contanti e prendere, a fare i prelevamenti, mandavano me che avevo diciotto anni, diciannove anni. Poi sono diventato funzionario del partito. Poi ho smesso quando non ne potevo più. Non si mangiava perché il partito, sì esisteva la cifra dello stipendio ma che non vedevamo mai e fin quando ero solo tiravo ma poi dovevo sposarmi e ho dovuto, non uscire dal partito ma non fare più il funzionario, lavorare con mio papà a vendere la frutta e la verdura per poi andare in Comune a lavorare.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Altro, io sono sempre a disposizione.
FA: Va bene allora la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
TM: Che cognome hai?
FA: Andi.
TM: Anni?
FA: Andi.
TM: Andi. E Filippo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tullio Magnani
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Tullio Magnani remembers his wartime years in the Pavia province. Although his father was blacklisted as a subversive communist he did not have any trouble at school. He recounted his role as a young resistance helper smuggling food rationing coupons, while working as a shop boy for a well-known antifascist. Remembers being an eye-witness to the bombing of Milan from Pavia. Retells of a machine gun being set up by fascists on the Ticino river bank, which proved ineffective against allied aircraft. Mentions the strafing of a funeral procession at the Cava Manara municipality carried out by what was thought to be a spotter aircraft. Remembers 'Pippo' bombing at night and targeting the fishermens wharf. Stressing how, during the intense bombing and strafing of Pavia on 4 September when they lost everything, the local fascist authority of Travacò municipality was very helpful in providing them with cots, food and lodgings in a school. Mentions wartime episodes: people seeking refuge in a tunnel used as a makeshift shelter and the carnage that ensued from the bombing, a chemist being arrested for being caught red-handed listening to Radio London, how some driven by poverty and hunger, joined the fascist guards and resorted to going to the cinema before the curfew to find a warm place to stay. Explains how Pavia’s old bridge, unlike the other two which were hit, was not hit by the bombers because it was not clearly visible in the reconnaissance photographs taken from aircraft. Describes the celebrations at the end of the war and reflects on the duality of bombers / liberators. Remembers seeing for the first time an American soldier called Dino, who gave them a soap crate as a gift for washing his laundry. Mentions post war acts of revenge, his role in the local branch of the communist party, the 1948 general election, and how he did not get a job as a tax collector because of his political persuasion.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:52:11 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMagnaniT170303
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-04
1948
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/70/717/AAn00974-170413.1.mp3
7b601175f7d1834f67ccdfb1c3feb0ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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An00974
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare le signore [omitted]. Siamo a Vellezzo Bellini è il 13 aprile 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. La sua intervista, le vostre interviste registrate diventeranno parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarvi e tutelarvi secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora [omitted], vuole,
Interviewee: Eccomi.
FA: vuole raccontarci cosa si ricorda del tempo di guerra, in particolare dei bombardamenti avvenuti nella sua zona, dove abitava?
I: Eh, mi ricordo sì, che da quel particolare lì che noi abitavamo in una cascina che era in direzione del Ponte d’Olio, era il ponte più, un punto più preciso per i bombardamenti, venivano proprio di sopra della cascina e tiravano, e bombardava sempre il Ponte dell’Olio perché lì era, non so cosa c’era, che per loro era un punto più di riferimento. Poi va bene, prima di arrivare al ponte c’era un paese che si chiamava Orzinuovi, era un paese di molti partigiani, fascisti e via discorrendo. Mi ricordo bene quel periodo lì, ecco. Poi mi ricordo quando sono venuti alla cascina per cercare un partigiano che hanno fatto la rivoluzione per tutta la cascina quale che lui, benissimo, era scappato, era scappato fuori in una campagna dove c’era la, diciamo la produzione del tabacco. Lì c’è stato un po’ di trambusto, un po’ di difficoltà di tutti, anche con la famiglia perché venivano in casa e buttavano per aria tutto per vedere se delle volte erano o nel letto o nel mucchio del granoturco, vedere se era sotto, non so perché, come faeva a capì, e invece casa non c’era niente. Poi per proteggere, anche per vedere se ghe c’era qualcheduno che diceva la verità, portavano i ragazzi, i ragazzini come me d’otto anni dietro, perché dicevano che se non si diceva la verità mi avrebbero picchiato. E allora noi non è che potevamo dire la verità perché non era in casa nostra, era il figlio d‘un nostro principale che, lui benissimo era a casa ma noi non è che possiamo dire lui era a casa. Nel frattempo lui ha fatto in tempo a scappare. È scappato fuori, loro sono andati in casa, non hanno trovato niente e la roba è stata finita lì. Poi, sì, lì al paese ci sono state tante cose, tanti bombardamenti. C’era sto signora lì che l’hanno perfino pelata, perché era una partigiana, le dava fastidio non lo so, era perché era ricca, non lo so, lì l’hanno pelata tutta.
FA: Si ricorda qualche bombardamento in particolare?
I: Bombardamenti particolare no, perché diciamo lì alla nostra cascina non è mai successo niente, vedevamo solo a passare che buttavano le schegge, dicevano le schegge, i nostri genitori dicevano le schegge, magari erano bombette, non lo so. Diciamo proprio bombardamenti lì no. Sono stati al paese e sul Ponte dell’Olio. Noi, essendo vicini, si vedeva ma non che abbiamo visto proprio.
FA: Vi arrivavano i rumori, insomma.
I: Sì, sì.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
I: Lo spostamento d’aria e così via. Però vedendo proprio da buttare giù. Poi quando c’è stato finito la guerra sono passati tutti con i carri armati i tedeschi e na davan de mangià.
I: Americani.
I: Erano gli americani na devana, passavan con i carri armati, eh quanti, e li davano giù quel pane che sembravano gallette.
I: Gallette le chiamavano.
I: ecco, il pane che si chiamano gallette e lì è stato quando la guerra è stata finita. L’abbiam finita nel ’45, ecco.
FA: Ok, va bene. Eh, signora [omitted], lei invece abitava alla cascina Brunoria.
I: E infatti, lì vicino a Pavia, proprio. E quando hanno bombardato, cosa lo chiamavano, il Ponte dell’Impero, quello lì lo chiamavano? O no?
FA: Quello di cemento?
I: Quando hanno bombardato Pavia, cos’era il Ponte dell’Impero, lo chiamavano?
FA: Sì, dell’Impero, sì. Di là c’era quello della ferrovia.
I: Che e poi mi ricordo che erano i primi di settembre no, noi eravamo, io, mia sorella e mio fratello eravamo nei campi a spigolare le patate.
I: Ah sì.
P: E niente, mia mamma è venuta a cercarci, no, perché in linea d’aria eravamo lì ad un paio di chilometri eh dal ponte, o forse neanche. Adesso non mi ricordo più però.
FA: Mi pare di sì.
I: Ecco. E niente, mi ricordo il fatto che una scheggia no, ha proprio preso mia mamma qui sulla spalla. Non c’era il sangue però c’era via la pelle, si vedeva proprio la carne rossa. Quel fatto lì la vedo ancora adesso, però c’è l’ho davanti agli occhi ancora ecco.
FA: Quindi si ricorda dove eravate più o meno. Quindi eravate lì nel.
I: Eravamo lì vicino alla cascina, fuori, fuori appena dalla cascina ecco.
FA: Quindi è arrivata fino, fino a lì.
I: Sì, sì, sì, eh, le schegge delle bombe, sì, sono arrivate fino a lì, ecco. L’altro, proprio dei bombardamenti no, non mi ricordo, ecco.
FA: Perché comunque c’era una certa distanza, ecco.
I: Sì. Anche. Ma quello lì c’è stato anche quello più che mi ricordo più grande, come bombardamento, no, che hanno buttato giu il ponte lì.
FA: E poi è andata, ma è andata in ospedale o?
I: No, no, eh sì, non c’era neanche, non c’era neanche la bicicletta per andare in ospedale. Niente. No perché difatti non è che era grave, era via solo un po’ di pelle che si vedeva, la carne rossa, eh.
FA: Graffiata insomma.
I: Sì, ecco, così. D’altri fatti, ecco proprio di bombardamenti proprio no, non mi ricordo neanche, magari me l’hanno raccontato anche i genitori, ecco.
FA: Lei invece, signora [omitted], dove abitava?
I: Io abitavo a Samperone, vicino alla Certosa. Lì hanno lanciato una bomba però non c’è stato nessun morto, praticamente, perché è caduto in campagna. Però io, di fronte a me, alla distanza di cento metri, avevo l’accampamento dei tedeschi e in casa mia mio papà era in guerra, però mia mamma aveva in casa il papà e un fratello che doveva essere militare. Quindi eravamo molto, molto, molto osservati. [phone rings] Quindi eravamo un po’ sotto pressione perché avevamo in casa questo zio.
FA: Esatto.
I: E dall’accampamento, la nostra porta dava proprio sull’accampamento dei tedeschi. Quindi loro ci vedevano in casa. Infatti un mattino mio zio è sceso dalla camera, si è messo lì per mettere le scarpe e l’han visto. Quindi hanno fatto irruzione in casa, cercavano il marito, a mia mamma dicevano il marito. Lei li faceva vedere le lettere e via, dicendo che il marito era, loro hanno visto e mio papà perché aveva in casa anche il papà,
FA: Ah già.
I: Ma loro han capito che poteva. Quindi sono andati su in camera, hanno con le baionette trafitto tutti i letti,
FA: Insomma hanno fatto un disastro.
I: un macello, non l’han trovato. Non l’han trovato poi hanno fatto, c’erano i camion che portavano via quelli che c’erano a casa non trovando per loro un uomo c’era, hanno portato via mio nonno. Però essendo vecchio il giorno dopo l’han fatto venire a casa. Ricordo dei bombardamenti per noi era come se fossero lì, erano quelli di Milano, quando bombardarono Milano, che eravamo fuori nei rifugi, sembrava proprio però non eravamo proprio lì.
FA: Dove, dove vi rifugiavate?
I: Eh, c’era un campo che avevano fatto un rifugio sottoterra, sì. Andavamo tutti lì fuori in campagna, avevano fatto un rifugio, c’era un campo. Per dire, uno era qui, poi c’era come una collinetta, l’altro era più là, lì sotto avevano scavato, fatto i rifugi e noi, quando suonava l’allarme, scappavamo tutti lì.
FA: E si ricorda come era costruito il rifugio, cioè, avevan scavato e han fatto un
I: Sì, sì, proprio scavato e noi andavamo tutti lì.
FA: E han messo le travi in legno.
I: No, no, una buca.
I: Una buca.
FA: Era giusto un buco.
I: Un buco. Era sostenuto perché era un campo alto e uno basso.
FA: Ah, ok.
I: Cioè, essendo quello lì più alto, fatto la buca e noi riuscivamo.
FA: Un terrapieno.
I: Ecco, dentro e uscire fuori.
FA: Ho capito. E l’allarme, si ricorda dov’è che era l’allarme, era in paese, a Samperone?
I: L’allarme, suonava l’allarme, dire da dove suonava non lo so. E c’è stato un bombardamento sulla statale, da Samperone alla statale, lì da Pavia c’è un chilometro e mezzo. Hanno bombardato un camion, però io non mi ricordo. C’è stato un bombardamento col camion.
FA: Ehm, un’ultima domanda. Cosa vi ricordate di Pippo?
I: Pippo era tremendo.
I: Pippo, posso dire, noi tre bambini, con l’accampamento fuori, ci faceva fare la pìpì in casa, per terra sul pavimento. Perché quand’era sera, bisognava che ci fosse tutto buio, noi avevamo l’accampamento lì, non potevamo aprire la porta, andare fuori a fare la pìpì, dovevamo farla in casa sul pavimento. I bagni in casa non c’erano, si andava fuori. E l’accampamento è come, ecco, questo è la porta, e lì dove c’è la mura, c’era l’accampamento.
I: Non c’era la luce però. Io non avevo la luce.
I: No, la candela. E magari la spegni.
I: No, no, io mi ricordo che avevamo la luce, sì, sì.
I: Una piccola lampadina.
I: Io mi ricordo che c’avevamo la lampadina. La lucerna non mi ricordo.
F: No, no, no, io la lucerna che mettiamo sul tubo e sotto c’era il petrolio, no.
FA: Esatto
I: Quando si sentiva Pippo, mia mamma [backgroud noise] la ciapava un strass nero , no la n’andava in gireva insima[unclear]
FA: e lo copriva.
I: E lo copriva. Lui andava.
I: Ma noi, noi la luce l’ho mai vista da [background voice]
I: Ricordo io, la luce l’avevamo, per quel che mi ricordo.
F: Noi facevamo con la lucerna. Con la lucerna, disevan la lucerna, c’era il petrolio. Poi avevo un tubo di sopra perché c’era fumo no. E niente, eran quello lì. Mio papà gaveva mis du caden se no comel fai. El leva tacà su li, era una lucerna.
I: Io dei tre ero la più piccola
F: non ho mai visto.
I: di tre figli ero la più piccola.
FA: Va bene allora. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per.
I: Niente. Bene. Poi se va bene.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
The informants remember wartime hardships endured near Pavia and Piacenza. Several stories recalled: a farmhouse being thoroughly searched for partisans, children questioned, people injured by shell splinters, a makeshift dugout used as shelter, improvised lighting at home, strafing, Germans looking for deserters and American troops giving away crackers to the children. They tell how the menacing presence of 'Pippo' forced them to relieve themselves inside on the floor. Mentions the bombings of Milan as seen from the countryside where they were.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:13:33 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn00974-170413
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Piacenza
Italy--Pavia
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/69/716/AVaresiP170308.2.mp3
fd6ab1d08c0b17f64c66276e8188629f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Varesi, Pietro
Pietro Varesi
P Varesi
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Pietro Varesi who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Varese, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il signor Pietro Varesi. Siamo a Pavia, è l’8 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Varesi per aver permesso questa intervista. È inoltre presente il signor Maggi. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’Università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Varesi, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza di ragazzo durante la guerra?
PV: Dunque, io mi ricordo il primo bombardamento che han fatto.
AM: Perché prima della guerra ti ricordavi quasi niente, ecco.
PV: Ecco, il primo bombardamento. Io, mia nonna con la cariola andavamo, faceva la lavandaia e portava i panni a lavare.
AM: In città.
PV: A Pavia, sì, noi chiamavamo Pavia la città. A metà borgo gli aerei cominciavano a girare. Erano a gruppetti, da quattro, cinque, non mi ricordo bene, no, giravano. E ha suonato l’allarme, ci siamo fermati, a metà borgo. Ohè, hanno cominciato a bombardare. Io mi ricordo, ohè, ero un bambino, il fischio [emphasis] che facevano le bombe. Facevano dei fischi che [unclear], però le bombe non si vedevano perchè, dopo un po’ s’è visto un polverone [emphasis], eh, ecco quello lì era il ricordo del bombardamento, il primo.
AM: Perché prima non avevano mai bombardato a Pavia. Questo nel ’44.
PV: È la prima volta.
AM: Qualche bomba qua e là, però loro non avevano avuto sentore.
PV: Beh mi ricordo i fascisti, che picchiavano anche la gente che ho visto. Però è il ricordo della guerra. Avevano una paura, la popolazione, una paura spaventosa. Che infatti, appena sono arrivati gli americani o gli inglesi figurati che, con le, la cicca americana [emphasis] la, sì, li accontentavano tutti. Al posto io mi ricordo che, adesso ho pensato, dico ma perché non li abbiamo odiati perché venivano qui a bombardare? Invece tutto il contrario. Il mio ricordo della guerra è quello. Appena sono, i liberatori, appena sono arrivati, la gente, gli americani qui. Però qualche mese prima hanno ucciso tutta la gente qui, li hanno ucciso loro eh, no i tedeschi, eh. Beh il mio ricordo è quello, della guerra. Mi ricordo dopo con la barca, con i miei vecchi no, siamo andati al Ponte della Becca giù, dove c’è il confluente, il Ticino e il Po, e son venuti a mitragliare il ponte e a bombardarlo. Io ero là la spiaggia, mi passava. Gli aerei prima mitragliavano poi sfioravano l’acqua e passavano, li vedevo, non so, a un quaranta, cinquanta metri da me. Erano sempre in due, cacciabombardieri eh, a un motore solo, erano solo in due, erano, adesso non mi ricordo più se erano inglesi, americani.
AM: Di che sapevi, no, tu non sapevi chi c’era sopra. Tu vedevi il pilota [unclear] ecco.
PV: Sì.
FA: E li vedeva proprio bene insomma. Ieran lì.
PV: Ho visto il bombardamento che facevano di notte. Pippo [emphasis] lo chiamavano, eh, lo chiamano Pippo. Ohè, da ragazzo scappavamo, andiamo [unclear], poi i ragazzi erano tutti, sempre in giro anche di sera eravamo in giro. Ohè ha buttato giù le bombe, si vedevano le scintille [emphasis], ero un po’ piccolo però ecco, le scintille lì. Poi hanno ucciso un mio parente al ponte, Pippo con le bombe, il Ponte Coperto non l’avevano ancora bombardato eh. Eh il ricordo è quello lì e la paura che aveva la gente, una paura spaventosa, infatti appena sono arrivati quelli là, ma se erano quelli là che bombardavano? Guarda . .
AM: Però erano considerati liberatori, no?
PV: Sì, liberatori. Morte ai tedeschi, infatti lì c’erano dei ragazzi tedeschi, che loro non c’entravano niente però li han picchiati [laughs], comunque. La popolazione, c’era un odio spaventoso. La guerra.
FA: Invece gli americani erano, erano ben visti gli americani.
AM: Anche se c’hann bombardato.
PV: Sì, fa niente. Hanno bombardato, però erano, boh.
FA: E quando era il primo bombardamento che ha visto lì sul borgo, poi cosa ha fatto, si è, è rimasto lì a guardare, si è nascosto?
PV: No, finito il bombardamento, c’era un polverone, mia nonna correndo [laughs] siamo venuti a casa.
AM: Son scappati a casa.
PV: Sì.
AM: Perché loro non erano ancora preparati. Non avevano capito che cosa potesse succedere la prima volta.
PV: Eh già.
FA: Non, non, non vi aspettavate.
PV: No, lui è uno che abitava vicino, più grande di me eh, era un giovanotto, io ero, avrà avuto diciott’anni, abitava qui, con la barca a prendere i pesci e il primo bombardamento. Il Ticino era pieno di legna perché [unclear] i legni del ponte e i pesci.
AM: [unclear]
PV: È il mio ricordo, adesso anche non mi viene eh, però. La guerra, c’erano i rifugi, quando c’era, ma i rifugi per modo di dire, facevano una buca e mettevano sopra qualche trave per andare, con un po’ di terra, erano quattro. Allora quando suonava l’allarme sotto le, che se buttavano una bomba li uccideva tutti.
FA: Sì sì.
AM: Tant’è vero che là, la Tumbina l’han ciapà.
PV: Ecco là, sono andati sotto in un buco, han bombardato, son morti tutti.
FA: Sapevo che ce n’era uno vicino alla Cascina Trinchera.
PV: La Cascina Trinchera non c’era eh qui. No, non c’eran cose.
FA: C’era un.
PV: Ma lì c’era una buca.
FA: Sì. In quella zona lì.
PV: Sì, eh.
FA: E voi andavate in quelle.
PV: Sì, no, no. Tutta la popolazione andava lì.
FA: Tutto il borgo insomma.
AM: Cioè quelli di qua insomma del Borgo basso, gli altri andavano un po’ più in su .
FA: Quelli di qua, della zona.
PV: Sì, eh.
AM: Quelli che non riuscivano a scappare andavano lì [unclear].
PV: Sì, eh.
AM: Perché, perché dopo il primo bombardamento tanti sono sfollati, sono andati via no, quando hanno continuato a bombardare perché poi avevano paura. Prima e non rendendosi conto, allora erano qua e con i bombardamenti sono scappati lì, no.
PV: A, a volte c’era, adesso non so se sparavano agli aerei o sparavano perché dovevano sparare. Si vedeva [makes a rhythmic sound] e si vedevano dei palloni neri dove sparavano.
FA: Questa la contraerea?
PV: Sì.
AM: Però quà non gli han mai presi, no?
PV: No [laughs].
AM: Mai ciapà niente [laughs].
PV: Adesso il racconto mi viene. Alla Vignazza.
M: Dove c’è il Gravellone?
FA: Sì.
PV: Dove c’è il Gravellone, la Vignazza, lì c’erano la difesa contraerea. Erano degli uomini anziani qui da noi che erano dalla parte dei fascisti eh, erano lì a fare la contraerea se venisse [laughs]. Noi da ragazzi tornavamo dalla scuola, io ero in seconda o terza elementare, tornavamo non per la strada del borgo, tutto attraverso i campi e via sempre, per giocare. E loro, i militari quelli lì, quelli della contraerea, era tutta l’osteria, lì c’era l’osteria.
AM: Lasciavano là le mitragliatrici e i cannoncini e andavano in osteria a mangiare.
PV: Noi siamo. C’erano le buche con dentro le mitraglie, due, mi ricordo a due canne o una canna sola. E c’eran tutti sacchetti in giro. Noi siamo andati lì e c’eravamo le maniglie.
AM: Giocavano, no.
PV: Bambini.
FA: Sì sì.
PV: È venuto fuori alla maestra a scuola dopo un paio di giorni, sono venuti là con i fascisti quelli tutti vestiti di nero. Chi è? [laughs] Eravamo bambini e allora.
FA: Han chiuso un occhio.
PV: Han chiuso un occhio.
AM: Però per dirti come funzionava la contraerea. Andavano all’osteria a mangiare.
PV: Sì andavano all’osteria. Era una guerra.
FA: Un po’ alla carlona, eh.
PV: Sì, un po’ alla carlona. Noi in genere c’era troppo, orca miseria. A scuola, adesso parlando della guerra, no, a scuola. Quando c’era una festa del fascismo, così, i ragazzi, dovevano venire i balilla, no, con la bandoliera bianca.
AM: Il fez.
PV: Con l’emme qui, non so cosa c’era, non mi ricordo proprio. Mio padre era contrario ‘sono bambini, cosa fanno fare la guerra ai bambini’ e non m’ha mai comperato la divisa.
FA: La divisa.
PV: Mai, e la maestra mi fava la nota:’il bambino deve venire a scuola adeguato’. Poi è finito tutto. Non le han dato l’olio [laughs] per un po’ perché le davano l’olio eh a quelli ecco, che erano contrari. Mi ricordo quei fatti lì ecco.
AM: Ecco però vialtar si no sfulare da chi , non siete sfollati voi.
PV: No, no.
FA: È sempre stato.
PV: Qui eravamo un po’ distanti eh, eravamo distanti dagli obiettivi che potevano essere.
FA: Però vedevate tutto insomma, quando venivano si vedeva bene.
PV: Sì, sì. Eh erano alti però eh i bombardamenti. Erano non so a che altezza potevano essere, oltre, ma forse oltre i mille metri.
AM: Pusè sì sì.
PV: Erano alti, eh gli aerei. Erano tutti gruppetti.
FA: Quindi si sentivano solo le bombe che venivan giù.
PV: No, le bombe si vedevano appena si staccavano dall’aereo, nere, così erano. Venivano giù, poi dopo non si vedevano più eh, perché si vede che si raddrizzavano, aumentavano velocità.
FA: Un dito.
PV: Sì, erano nere ecco, a gruppetti. Loro, gli aerei si staccavano dal gruppo, due o tre, favano, ma favano due o tre giri eh. Beh bombardamenti ne han fatto sei.
AM: Sei.
PV: Sei bombardamenti.
FA: E non avete.
PV: E sempre, una volta la settimana venivano, sempre, mi sembra sempre il solito giorno. Una volta la settimana.
AM: Agli inizi no ien gnid al dü. Le prime volte
PV: In settembre hanno cominciato.
AM: In settembre [unclear]. Sono venuti tre volte a distanza di un giorno, a distanza di un paio di giorni uno dall’altro le prime tre volte. Poi gli altri, perché non c’entravano il ponte invece gli han fatti.
PV: Sì, sì.
AM: L’ultimo l’han fatto il 22 di settembre. I primi gli han fatti all’inizio di settembre, i primi tre. Poi gli altri tre gli han fatti frazionati fin quando non hanno buttato giù il ponte.
PV: Per fortuna che non andavamo a scuola se no c’entravamo, han centrato le scuole eh.
FA: Ah, erano vicine la ponte?
PV: Eh già.
AM: No, perché hanno sbagliato una volta, han beccato tutte le case fino alle scuole. Però le scuole allora incominciavamo il primo di ottobre e i bombardamenti li hanno fatti a settembre no.
FA: Quindi era in Via Dei Mille la scuola? Più o meno?
AM: Dove c’era, quella prima lì dove c’è la chiesa adesso.
PV: Sì.
AM: Una parte della chiesa era rimasta danneggiata.
PV: Ma no, eran lì dove sono adesso le scuole.
AM: Sì in Via, lì in via dei deposit di strass ad Gavazzi cla gà brusa tut.
PV: Ma mi me par che
AM: E le scol ieran de dri. Dove iera i carabinieri. Comunque ieran lì, la zona era quella.
PV: Sì, ben, l’è lì, ecco, la zona l’è quella lì. Iera i scol.
FA: E invece i fascisti davano fastidio insomma?
PV: Ma i fascisti a volte, ma quando andavamo in città, noi andavamo a Porta Nuova, lì con i ragazzi di Porta Nuova dall’altra parte del Ticino e lì si vedevano, ma in borgo io non ne ho mai visti dalle nostre parti, fascisti.
FA: Erano in città.
PV: Erano sempre in città.
AM: Se venivano in borgo venivano per fare qualche retata.
PV: Eh sì ma in borgo.
AM: Come quando sono venuti a prendere Angelino per portarlo a suldà.
PV: Perché i giovanotti che erano assenti alla leva erano nascosti nelle cascine e.
AM: Venivano se c’era una soffiata, no.
PV: Ah sì.
AM: Perché Angelino che ndat in tel prat cl’era dre stend i pan , perché i gh’avivan dit che lu l’er la, che l’han fatto, che l’hanno.
PV: Mi ricordo bene che andavamo a scuola in borgo, io la quarta elementare sono andato in città perché in borgo non c’erano più le scuole. C’hanno fatto la passerella perché i più ponti, passerella sui barconi, si attraversava a piedi si andava. Qui c’erano gli indiani col.
AM: Turbante.
PV: Col turbante [emphasis]. Han vuotato. C’erano i.
AM: Questo è interessante.
PV: Quando c’era il fascismo facevano, prima del, non il Balilla, i più avanti erano i.
M: Gli Avanguardisti.
PV: No, ma.
FA: I Figli della Lupa.
PV: Il premilitare facevano, no. Andavano a fare le prove con, gli davano il fucile, giovanotti, quattordici, quindici anni eh, andavano. E gli indiani dovevano andare a dormire dove c’era il deposito, c’erano le bombe a mano per, eh per segnalazioni, c’erano gli esplosivi ma tutto per fare le prove loro, no, quei ragazzi lì. Han vuotato per andare. Son venuti qui in borgo con gli autocarri.
AM: Li han buttati tutti li.
PV: E han rovesciato un po’ in Ticino un po’.
AM: Sulle rive.
PV: Fuori, nelle sponde del Ticino. Oh, i ragazzi più grandi, io ero piccolo, andavo anche [unclear], tutti là a prendere bombe a mano, e ci son rovinati quattro, cinque giovanotti eh qui.
AM: Perché poi erano al fosforo, no, c’erano le saponette al fosforo.
PV: Oh, c’era un nostro amico, ohè la faccia.
AM: S’era bruciato tutto, no.
PV: Non erano, non uccidevano perché eran cose d’esercitazione, però.
FA: Però eran pericolose.
PV: Si son fatti male. Ah loro non guardavano, gli indiani.
AM: Quello è successo appena mandati via i tedeschi no perché nel ’44 due mesi dopo l’8 di settembre, [unclear] andati via, questo, quando sono arrivati gli americani durante il ’45 no, dopo il 25 aprile allora han buttato e c’erano un sacco d’armi qua, perché buttavan tutto così, no. Non stavano.
PV: Ormai la guerra era finita, eh.
[background noise]
PV: Perché non c’era niente, c’era la tessera con i bollini, tagliavano i bollini. E lì, e lì i negozianti han fatto i soldi eh. Tutti eh quelli che avevano un piccolo negozio. Tutti.
FA: Con la borsa nera.
PV: Borsa nera, bravo. Eh sì, altro che i bollini e no bollini. Eh, quelli che avevano i soldi mangiavano, gli altri, il pane, mi ricordo, era scuro, nero e a volte si trovavano [laughs] dentro i pezzi di legno o non so che cosa era dentro il pane, il mio ricordo.
FA: Perché c’era poca roba da mettere sotto i denti.
PV: Sì, c’erano i bollini. Mio padre fumava, mio nonno, avevano i, anche la tessera sul fumo. Mi ricordo. Qualcuno che non fumava vendeva la tessera ai fumatori. Ah, la guerra è stata una cosa. Io l’ho provata, ero piccolo e loro. Adesso mi, a volte mi ricordo ancora. Ma porca miseria dico, ma perché? E invece era così.
FA: Insomma la viveva un po’ da ragazzo.
PV: Da ragazzo, [unclear] avevo dieci anni. Otto, dieci anni. Eravamo, non è come adesso, i ragazzi non li vedi, prima erano tutti [laughs] a gruppi eh, i ragazzi eran tutti in strada eh.
FA: Era più quasi la curiosità che la paura.
PV: Sì, oh, tornavamo mai dalla strada, sempre, anzi qui abbiam, hanno ucciso tre bambini eh, hanno fatto una buca per la ghiaia. Quel periodo lì eh, in tempo di guerra era quasi finito, e noi abbiamo fatto, come una grotta e andavamo sotto a giocare, via, è ceduto, eran sotto al Pep l’è stat l’unic che l’è stat [unclear].
AM: Cioè eran sotto in cinque, due si son salvati, il Pep e un altro che era già, e tre invece, han scavato subito ma eh son soffocati sotto.
PV: Son morti sotterrati, eh c’è poco da fare. La guerra è stato, il mio ricordo ogni tanto, adesso pensando ho detto ma porca, ma perché si faceva così? Un odio tra popolazione, qui c’era uno che era fascista eh, e allora, ohé c’era da stare attenti perché poi.
AM: E se parlava lui, a lui davano ascolto e loro invece erano le vittime, no.
PV: La guerra.
AM: Che anche in borgo da basso che erano due o tre famiglie ad fasisti no.
PV: Sì, eh.
AM: Il papà ad Renata, quas chi. Sì, erano tre o quattro, cioè quelli che erano. Però sai quelli lì erano quelli che, a cui davano retta no, avevano il potere. Se dicevano loro qualche cosa, gli altri andavano nei pasticci.
FA: Certo.
PV: Noi eravamo piccoli, non guardavano, potevamo fare, ohè, potevamo fare quello che volevamo. Però quelli che sono andati a fare certi, certi cosi non guardavano eh. Ohè, sono andati a rubare in castello e li hanno uccisi eh.
AM: Gli han tirato le bombe e.
PV: Si è salvato il Galle , povero ragazzo si è salvato. Uno ha perso le gambe.
AM: e sono andati a rubare al castello perchè.
PV: Non guardavano se erano bambini eh.
AM: Andavano a rubare per sopravvivenza, non è che andavano a rubare perché. E poi adesso, il particolare delle barche che avevano sequestrato qua in Gravellona.
PV: Eh sì, eh sì, hanno portato via tutte le barche.
FA: Ah.
AM: I tedeschi sì.
PV: I tedeschi eh.
AM: Han sequestrato tutte le barche perché qua c’erano i barcaioli che avevano le barche da lavoro facevano gli scavatori di ghiaie, legname, portavano la biancheria di là, a un certo punto è venuto, hanno requisito tutte le barche perché avevan paura che portassero i partigiani e robe del genere . Le hanno requisite e dove le hanno portate? Nde ca ian purtà i barcè?
PV: In Gravellone, lì, dove il Gravellona va in Ticino .
AM: Ma che cosa han fatto vicino alle barche?
PV: C’era il cartello eh, ‘attenti minen’ neh,
AM: Hanno minato, hanno minato tutto.
PV: mi ricordo, noi andavamo a giocare là, stavamo sempre sulla strada, c’eran tutte le barche nel Gravellone.
AM: A turno hanno minato.
PV: E c’erano un paio di cartelli uno qui uno di là. [unclear] Il padre del, Un nostro amico è andato, è morto eh, scoppiata la mina.
FA: Eh sì.
AM: Ha cercato di prendere la barca perché ne aveva bisogno esasperato no e ha messo il piede sulle mine e c’è rimasto.
PV: Qui la gente quando vedeva, vedevano che noi ragazzi andavamo giù:’ohè, non andate là, eh’ [screams] Ecco.
AM: Quindi quello lì era quando c’era anche un po’ di repressione ecco.
PV: Qui è successo tutto.
AM: Poi quando i tedeschi hanno incominciato a ritirarsi, Piero, quà son diventati tutti partigiani.
PV: Sì, sì, anche i fascisti. Han tolto il nero e messo il foulard, il foulard rosso, eh mi ricordo, eh quello lì mi ricordo.
AM: E quando passavano si vurivan fa’? . Quand i pasavan intl’argin si vurivan fa’?
PV: Portavano via.
AM: Le armi e gli sparavano.
PV: Eh, rubavano.
AM: Tant’è vero uno, cosa è successo, al papà del Luisone, Luison, al mut, suo papà che successo
PV: Adesso mi ricordi plù.
AM: In tl’argin, gh’han no sparà? Che è mort?
PV: Li eran contro i tedeschi.
AM: Eh sì. Quando.
PV: [unclear].
AM: Quando i tedeschi si stavano ritirando.
PV: Siccome lì c’erano i tedeschi che stavano andando via qui hanno fatto una sommossa no.
AM: Con le armi che [unclear]
PV: I tedeschi però sparavano con la mitragliatrice, eh, sull’argine, chi attraversava l’argine, lui attraversa, ma era, era ubriaco eh.
AM: Però era là col fucile, sparava.
PV: To ziu al la saviva parchè l’era la eh.
AM: E l’hanno fatto fuori. Questi qua non guardavano.
FA: Infatti, sì.
AM: Se cercavano di scappare, i tedeschi mitragliavano, l’han beccato. Però non sapevano dove portare il cadavere, l’hanno portato in chiesa, no. L’han chiuso in chiesa.
PV: Sì, mi ricordo. Era un giorno, piovigginava. Noi volevamo andare a vedere no. Da ragazzi, quattro [unclear], io, Carboni e via. E al padre dal Galli [unclear] Ma se ciamava? Gili.
AM: Gili.
PV: Era un uomo rude con noi ragazzi perché andavamo dove stendevano i panni e rompevamo i pali. ‘Nde ca’ndiv vialtar? via a ca’ eh! Mi ricordo quell’uomo.
AM: Perché c’erano i tedeschi che passavano e loro erano ragazzotti eran curiosie allora li [unclear].
PV: Volevamo andare a vedere, si sentiva sparare [mimics machine gun noise] ogni tanto. Dicevo, piovigginava quel giorno, mi ricordo ancora.
AM: Quello lì era già nel ’45 dopo i bombardamenti, quando i tedeschi stavano scappando, ecco.
FA: E non siete mai andati a vedere le rovine del borgo, del ponte?
PV: Sì.
FA: Non siete andati a vederle, da ragazzi?
PV: Oh, sì, io, tutti i giorni andavamo, perché oramai si sapeva che i bombardamenti arrivavano [laughs] una volta la settimana sempre il solito giorno.
FA: E allora gli altri giorni?
PV: Gli altri giorni no. Mi ricordo che c’era, le saracinesche, dunque bombardavano e facevano tutta la pancia in fuori [emphasis], verso la strada, tutta la saracinesca così. E quelli esperti che lo sapevano dicevano:’è lo spostamento d’aria, prima va in dentro poi [makes a booming noise],
FA: Viene fuori.
PV: ‘Ecco viene fuori’. Tutte così, saracinesche con la pancia in fuori, verso la strada.
FA: Tutti i vetri delle finestre.
PV: Oh, bombardamenti, c’erano i muri maestri in piedi ma gli altri erano giù tutti. Oh ci sono stati morti, un mucchio di morti eh.
AM: Però anche le finestre delle case non bombardate, quelli lì i vedar ag n’era pü mia .
PV: Ma no giù, qui, la cooperativa del borgo.
AM: Allora in borgo c’erano due cooperative. Una, quella che c’è ancora adesso e l’altra che è di là dell’argine che era dove, quella che c’era di qua dell’argine è stata distrutta e c’era anche il teatro lì. Il teatro al, come se ciamava.
PV: Sì c’era il teatro del borgo. Eh ma non mi ricordi più. Il bombardamento gli aerei l’han fatto, han centrato il ponte della ferrovia e lì s’è sollevato il polverone, eravamo noi. Gli aerei son venuti via dritti, diritti, perché forse non vedevano, chi lo sà. Infatti han centrato l’arca verso il borgo del Ponte della Libertà, quello là, centrato. Ponte Coperto non l’han toccato, han centrato il borgo lì. Dopo il prossimo bombardamento, il Ponte Coperto era ancora, si passava, era ancora.
AM: Bordoni il teater.
PV: Il teatro Bordoni ?
AM: Era il teatro Bordoni , lì dove faceva le rappresentazioni Famiola, che era, Famiola l’era il nom, era il burattino di Pavia. Dove faceva le rappresentazioni Famiola.
PV: No, ma dopo han fatto il film, facevano il film.
AM: Dopo stavano anche i film.
PV: han fatto anche il cinema. Non so come si chiamava. Però.
AM: L’han distrutto però.
PV: E per il bombardamento han fatto così. Son venuti via diritti. Così spiegavano e lì da vedere. Il Ticino fa la curva, ecco.
AM: Così han preso tutte le case invece [unclear].
PV: Sì perché lì duevav ved al polverone ch’era neh. Io ero a metà borgo, era lì perché forse s’era fermà cun tu nona, me nona, che dia: ‘Regina, ma’, eh suona l’alarme sì ma, fa, suona sempar, des i van via, perché era ialtar dÌ aeroplani poi andà via senza bombardare. Boh. Primo, quello lì è il primo bombardamento. Poi tutte le settimane oramai si sapeva “Ah i vegnan eh!” [enphasis] ecco basta [laughs], ormai si sapeva che venivano.
AM: Però erano preparati, capivano che bombardavano quindi scappavano, mentre le prime volte non si rendevano conto di quello che stava succedendo.
PV: Ma come facevano a sapere che il ponte era ancora intatto? Forse i ricognitori.
AM: Guarda dintar il libar, c’è tute fotografie, che loro foto, quando passavano gli aerei, in coda c’era quello che faceva le fotografie, no.
PV: Oh, io non ho mai visto la contraerea sparare eh. E c’era eh.
FA: Quella lì, ponte zona Ticinello?
PV: Poi, ma c’era là dove c’è la fabbrica Casati là a ponte ad pedra, là. Ah, c’erano i cannoni con i tedeschi eh, ma grossi cannoni oh.
FA: Però niente.
PV: Mah. Niente, no.
AM: Non ha mai preso.
PV: Era mei sparà no eh, se no uhei [unclear]. Sparare, sparare noi non avevamo niente, loro avevano tutto eh.
FA: I tedeschi.
PV: E gli inglesi e americani.
FA: Gli inglesei, ah, è vero.
AM: Ma anche i tedeschi che avevano la contraerea lì, c’era lì e vicino al cimitero. Però effettivamente dicono che erano alti così. E loro non, sì qualche nuvoletta ogni tanto però non han mai visto, cioè, un, bombardare, prendere qualche aereo roba del genere, che non. Probabilmente non arrivavano neanche all’altezza degli aerei [unclear].
FA: Certo.
PV: Eh la guerra, ero troppo piccolo per ricordare.
AM: Però l’è na brutta robe, è na brutta robe.
PV: La fifa la, vedevo, mio nonno, mio nonno tremava sempre [laughs], appena sentiva l’allarme. Noi ragazzi no [unclear]. Ma i vecchi avevano paura, tutti i vecchi avevano paura tremenda. Perché? Perché .
FA: Si rendevano più conto.
PV: Sì, Han fatto delle cose lì, i liberatori, sì, dei bombardamenti, che non dovevano anche farli, dai. Si sa, eh. El libar gl’ho dsura mi, libar de, che scrit coso, l’è andat fin in America a to’ i dati.
FA: Va bene.
PV: Quello che. Perché, perché non mi ricordo tutto, ogni tanto mi ricordo qualcosa, eh. Che se ricordi robe, uhè go ottantadue anne, non passan mai, sesanta-setanta ani [laughs].
AM: Va bene.
FA: Va bene. Allora la ringraziamo.
PV: Oh, diamine.
FA: Per l’intervista.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Pietro Varesi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Pietro Varesi describes wartime life in Pavia, focussing on the Borgo neighbourhood. He mentions the Ticino bridges as primary targets for bombers; recalls bent shop shutters and debris on the streets; stresses the limited accuracy of bombing and the damage to civilian buildings. Describes how ineffectual anti-aircraft fire was and remembers playing on anti-aircraft guns when the gunners were eating and drinking at a nearby country inn. Contrasts the reaction of adults being frightened and alarmed, with the care-free attitudes of youngsters. Mentions street urchins involved in dangerous games often with disastrous consequences. Criticises makeshift shelters, deemed tantamount to death traps. Recalls various wartime episodes: being a member of fascist organisations while his father was an opponent of the fascist regime, deserters, repression of partisan activities, corpses hidden in a church, 'Pippo' flying at night, disrupted communications, improvised footbridges, rationing, the black market, and food pilfering. Describes men quickly exchanging fascist uniforms with red handkerchiefs at the end of the war. Reflects on the bombing war and stresses the duality of liberators / tormentors.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-03-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:29:50 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AVaresiP170308
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Pavia
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-08
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/PBuffadossiA1701.1.jpg
de29f384fbe6b8a34624abaecadf669e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/ABuffadossiA170528.2.mp3
ddcda3308299dee23387a698645c7f05
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Buffadossi, Annunciata
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Annunciata Buffadossi (b. 1932) who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan and in the Lake Maggiore area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Buffadossi, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: Abbiamo iniziato? Sì.
AB: Il mio nome...
ZG: Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistata è Annunciata Buffadossi. Nella stanza sono presenti Marialuigia Buffadossi, la sorella, Nava Spizzichino, l’amica delle due sorelle, e Sara Buda, come, dell’Associazione Lapsus. Siamo in [omitted] a Milano ed è il 28 maggio 2017. Nell’intervista saranno fatti dei cenni all’intervista fatta precedentemente da Sara Buda alla signora Marialuigia. Iniziamo. Si presenti pure.
AB: Io mi chiamo Buffadossi Annunciata. Sono nata l’11 ottobre 1932 a Milano, perciò sono proprio del tempo di guerra.
ZG: Ehm...
AB: Nel ’32, sono nata nel ’32, perciò è iniziata la guerra nel ’40, quando io avevo otto anni e facevo la terza elementare. Facevo la terza, siccome sono sempre, sono nata in Via Confalonieri 11,
MB: All’Isola.
AB: Eh, all’Isola, che adesso è diventata una zona di pregio, no, perché è la zona della movida e di però ai tempi, miei tempi era una zona molto degradata ed era ritenuta una zona proprio popolarissima, piena di ladri di galline proprio, non di grande, di grande [laughs] levatura. Però io abitavo in una casa che aveva, noi abitavamo nel, al quarto piano, una casa naturalmente senza né ascensore, né niente né, addirittura tanti appartamenti non avevano neanche il servizio in, all’interno. Siccome era una casa di ringhiera, tanti, tutti quelli che abitavano gli appartamenti che erano nella ringhiera, nella parte della ringhiera, avevano il servizio comune per tutti i quattro appartamenti che c’erano nella, sul piano. Perciò case proprio popolarissime. Però la veniva chiamata la casa di sass, perché era una casa molto antica ed era fatta di sasso proprio e dicevano che avesse duecento anni di età questa casa ed era di fronte alla Brown-Boveri , che era una, sì, la Brown-Boveri era una azienda che fabbricava le, forse le armi, era una, insomma una, ed era anche di fronte alle, alle linee varesine. Le linee varesine erano quelle che portavano a Varese, quella zona lì, che adesso invece hanno, sono state trasformate nella, come si chiama, la stazione di Porta Garibaldi, eh, quelle erano le varesine. Perciò potevano venire bombardate ed erano bombardate, era una zona bombardata perché c’era Brown-Boveri, che era proprio di fronte a casa nostra, noi eravamo all’undici, la Brown-Boveri aveva un numero pare, ma proprio di fronte, e di fronte c’erano pure le linee varesine che erano invitanti per i bombardamenti. Quando è arrivata, quando è venuta la guerra, che è stato nel 1940, noi l’abbiamo saputo dalla radio, che avevamo una radio regalata dalla mia nonna, l’unico regalo di mia nonna che, insomma, per quel poco che poteva fare, no, quella nonna lì poteva fare di più ma insomma ci aveva fatto solo il regalo della radio, avevamo saputo che era stata, scoppiata la guerra nel 1940. Da un discorso di Mussolini che diceva: ’Italiani, al di là del mare, al di là dei monti’, l’Italia insomma adesso mi ricordo che faceva dei discorsi roboanti proprio, che però prendeva tanta gente di, dalla parte proprio della passione così, comunque. Mio padre non era, né un fascista né niente, non aveva, perché aveva fatto sì la guerra del ’14-18, però siccome non era fra gli Arditi, era un alpino di artiglieria di montagna, che un tempo invece degli Alpini c’erano, c’era l’artiglieria di montagna. E’ che il papà amava molto sulla, cosa aveva fatto, sul, eh non mi ricordo più, comunque parlava sempre di avere fatto la guerra nell’artiglieria di montagna. Amava gli asini, che erano i compagni, i compagni degli artiglieri perché gli ha, ha salvato tante vite eh l’asino, il mulo anzi, più che l’asino il mulo perché portava, aveva.
ZG: Ma.
AB: Un capo, non so. Comunque mio padre quando raccontava le sue imprese, però non l’aveva finita, perché si era ammalato, aveva avuto la polmonite e l’avevano messo nelle retrovie. Perciò non aveva visto la fine della guerra ed era diventato l’attendente del colonnello, di un colonnello che stava a Torino ed era il capo della, dell’accademia degli artiglieri mi pare perciò mio padre, ecco. Però veniva da un paese della Lomellina, che erano contadini. Niente, questo per quanto riguarda la mia famiglia.
ZG: Eh
AB: Mio padre faceva il muratore, però veniva da un paese di contadini. E la mia mamma veniva sempre da un paese di contadini che era la Lomellina ed era, faceva la sarta. Io avevo una sorella maggiore, che era mia sorella Marialuisa che era della. Marialuisa, Io dico sempre Marialuisa ma il vero nome è Marialuigia perché così è. Rinnovava la nonna, sa che un tempo si rinnovava, io invece avevo rinnovato la nonna da parte materna, mia sorella invece da parte paterna ed era la preferita da, da quelle nonne lì, da quella nonna lì, mentre io ero la preferita della nonna Mussiada, insomma, è logico. Comunque quando è scoppiata la guerra, io facevo le elementari. Mi ricordo quando era scoppiato perché c’era stato il discorso del, di Mussolini. Il fratello di mia mamma, invece, siccome aveva fatto la guerra negli Arditi, era del 1800 eh perciò erano, avevano fatto la guerra del, era fra gli Arditi, era diventato un fascista, era piuttosto fascista perché gli Arditi, che erano del, del gruppo del, insomma erano tutti fascisti quando erano tornati dalla guerra, ti ricordi eh, lo zio Berto, ehm. Però era una bravissima persona, eh, una persona retta, che si interessava delle colonie per mandare, le colonie i bambini, che a quel tempo, se non andavano a fare la villeggiatura nelle colonie, i bambini non vedevano il mare neanche dopo vent’anni. Io ero stata mandata a Pietra Ligure per esempio, tant’è vero che avevo fatto la prima comunione a Pietra Ligure quando ero lì nella colonia, mandata da mio zio, che non avevo che da ringraziare perché ero una, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta [laughs] nel ’41 forse, ’41 o ’42, non so, perciò ero, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta, se no non conoscevo. Conoscevo la campagna della Lomellina quando andavo a trovare la mia nonna contadina e se no, non conoscevo altro. Comunque, vabbe’. Quando è scoppiata la guerra, io per i primi anni sono stata a Milano e ho finito la scuola, le elementari qui perciò devo averlo finito nel ’42, perché avevo dieci anni. Però mia mamma aveva cercato di mandarmi a, sfollata presso mia zia che abitava a Pallanza sul Lago Maggiore. E lì, purtroppo ecco lì non mi piaceva tanto perché mi trovavo bene con la mia zia, che era la mia zia preferita però tutte le sere, quasi tutte le notti si sentivano gli aerei che passavano sopra il Lago Maggiore. Venivano dalla Francia probabilmente, o dalla Svizzera, non lo so, e si sentivano i rumori e noi dicevamo tutti, sia mia zia sia le mie compagne di scuola che sentivo, che parlavo con le amichette, dicevo: ’Questi sono gli aerei che vanno a bombardare Milano’. Perché passavano sul Lago Maggiore, passavano Luino e venivano a Milano e questo mi faceva un bel dispiacere perchè io sapevo che a casa c’erano la mia mamma, il mio papà e mio fratello. Mia sorella no perché nel ’43 era andata, sapevo che era sfollata sul Lago di Como, perché era andata in banca e la banca aveva sfollato tutti i suoi dipendenti sul Lago Maggiore, eh sul Lago di Como. Perciò per lei ero tranquilla. Sapevo, sentivano dei bombardamenti. Nel ’43 è stato l’anno proprio brutto per i bombardamenti perché si sentiva parlare dei bombardamenti su Milano, massicci, proprio i più brutti, infatti c’erano stati tanti morti. Siccome noi abitavamo in una casa di fronte a un’azienda che faceva, che faceva proiettili, non so, era la Brown-Boveri , era una ditta che faceva forniture per la guerra, era pericolosa. E in più di fronte anche alle varesine, alle linee varesine era una casa, tant’è vero che avevano buttato delle bombe e avevano bruciato tutte le gelosie. Una volta le gelosie rientravano dentro nella, non so se voi, no, voi siete giovani non lo sapete, ma una volta rientravano nel muro e si chiamavano le gelosie. Erano di legno. Naturalmente hanno buttando tante bombe incendiarie hanno bruciato tutte le gelosie della nostra casa e lì mio padre che era il capofabbricato era, ha dovuto intervenire, fare venire non so i pompieri, quello che era, però ha annerito tutto il davanti della casa e abbiamo avuto delle, non era successo nient’altro però tanti rimanevano senza casa ad un certo momento. Noi abbiamo avuto solo quell’inconveniente lì delle gelosie, però, che erano bruciate e non so, adesso non mi ricordo più come. Ad un certo momento però io nel ’43, alla fine del ’43 dovevo fare l’esame di ammissione per la scuola media perché volevo fare la scuola media, che dopo forse avrei fatto magari le magistrali come mia sorella però i miei non potevano farmi studiare. Comunque c’era la mia sorella che lavorava, lavorava in banca, insomma avevamo qualche cosa di più da poter contare. E ho fatto la scuola, l’esame di ammissione alla scuola media lì a Pallanza e poi sarei tornata per fare la scuola media a Milano e sono ritornata nel ’43, ’44. Nel ’44 avevo quanti, dodici anni, avrei fatto la seconda media, ma ho fatto anche la prima media a Milano. E siccome non c’erano scuole, tutte le scuole medie erano un po’, sono andata a finire nella scuola che c’è in Via Giusti che è una scuola per capomastri. Infatti la mia scuola mi ricordo che aveva tutti i disegni, tutte le formine di architravi, cose del genere, però era diventata una scuola media perchè scuole per capomastri non venivano fatti in tempo di guerra, erano tutti ragazzotti che erano stati richiamati, avevano magari sedici, diciasette anni, erano richiamati. E allora andavo e tutti i giorni da, dall’Isola mi portavano nella zona dei cinesi, la Via,
MB: Paolo Sarpi
AB: Via Giusti, Via Paolo Sarpi, perchè la mia scuola era nella via che proseguiva la Via Giusti, la Via Giusti. Andavo però sempre accompagnata da un mio compagno di, un vicino che studiava nelle scuole che aveva un anno più di me e perciò non era richiamato perché, eh. E veniva, mi accompagnava, facevo tutta la strada insieme, dovevo passare dalla Via Guercino dove c’erano, dove c’era il comando dei, e dalla scuola Tenca, la scuola Tenca che adesso è la scuola magistrale che aveva frequentato mia sorella, che era la sede della Muti. La Muti era un’associazione di fascistotti, ragazzotti fascisti, che mettevano una paura solo con la loro divisa, non so lei no lei che non se ne ricorda ma io quando passavo davanti alla scuola Tenca, che era una scuola che mi piaceva perché era la scuola di mia sorella, mi faceva paura perché si vedevano questi ragazzotti che avevano sui diciotto, vent’anni, tutti vestiti di nero, con i baschi con il pennacchio rosso, era una cosa, con gli scarponi che facevano un rumore solo a sentir scandire queste, queste passi, erano una cosa che metteva, e io dovevo passare anche dalla Via Guercino dove c’era la sede dei tedeschi. Era terribile, la Via Guercino era sempre piena di questi tedescotti che mettevano paura perché marciavano in una maniera diversa da, anche dai nostri, che so io, dai nostri alpini, dai nostri bersaglieri che erano simpatici, così. Loro erano, facevano paura proprio, ecco. E io tutti i giorni dovevo fare e ogni tanto si sentiva suonare l’allarme perché di giorno, bombardavano anche di giorno, soprattutto di sera ma di giorno bombardavano e allora si sentiva. Noi eravamo a scuola e allora dovevamo scendere nelle cantine che io ero anche contenta eh di questa facenda perché mi impediva di essere interrogata, perché mi piaceva. Fra l’altro la mia professoressa di latino e di italiano e di latino così, era la professoressa Lighini che era la sorella del dottor Lighini, che, dell’ingegner Lighini che era il luogotenente del generale Cadorna e perciò lei non diceva mai, non parlava mai dei ribelli come erano chiamati i partigiani, erano chiamati ribelli no, non erano chiamati partigiani. I partigiani sono venuti dopo, quando dopo la fine della guerra che allora erano partigiani. Lei diceva sempre: ’ quei ragazzi’, i ragazzi che sono contro i fascisti logicamente, però sono partigiani, parteggiano per una certa parte. L’abbiamo saputo dopo che era la sorella di un, del luogotenente di, del generale Cadorna e infatti dopo era diventata la preside della Carlo Tenca perché era diventata, era la sorella di un cotanto personaggio, eh, perciò. E allora, questo per quanto riguarda i miei ricordi di. Invece di notte suonava sempre l’allarme, spesso l’allarme ma mia mamma non aveva paura e io pure non avevo paura, poi ero un po’ smemorata, non sentivo neanche l’allarme, non lo sentivo. Mia mamma se non mi svegliava io dormivo beatamente poi quando aveva l’allarme, il cessato allarme, mi risvegliavo ma andavo avanti a dormire. Invece mio padre scappava via come una lepre perchè era un pauroso, prendeva su la valigia dove c’erano tutti i tesori della famiglia e andava in cantina con mio fratello, mia sorella non c’era perché era sfollata e noi andavamo, andavamo avanti così. Alla fine della guerra quando c’è stata il 25 aprile, io mi ricordo che in Via Borseri che è una via dell’Isola era passato un convoglio di tedeschi con davanti l’ufficiale con, che imbraccava la rivoltella e faceva così con la mano per tener lontano perché tutta la gente lì che guardava i tedeschi che se ne andavano finalmente, perché mettevano paura, erano vestiti e si atteggiavano in una maniera che mettevano paura solo a vederli, mettevano paura. I fascisti vestiti, quelli della, delle brigate nere e i tedeschi mettevano proprio paura. Erano arrivati i partigiani. Ad un certo momento i partigiani però, insomma ne hanno fatte anche loro perché uccidevano i fascisti o quelli che ritenevano tali. Ci sono state tante vendette anche, insomma, fatte, fatte così ad arte che. Noi avevamo il nostro Don Eugenio Bussa che era il capo della Chiesa del Sacro Volto, che aveva salvato tanti ebrei, ma vicino al loro oratorio, c’era un muro dove venivano uccisi i partigiani che venivano presi o renitenti alla leva, perché c’erano tanti renitenti alla leva. Anche nella nostra casa c’erano due o tre amici di mia sorella che erano del ’24, ’25, che erano proprio giusto giusto per essere renitenti alla leva e loro cercavano di non andare, di non essere, perché se no andavano in Germania e non ritornavano più. E la guerra non la volevano fare, giustamente, perché poi, dopo il ’43 quando c’era stata l’armistizio, tanti erano scappati, magari erano anche militari ma erano scappati come un mio zio, quello zio lì del Lago Maggiore che era un carabiniere che era in Iugoslavia neh, si era levato le mostrine di carabiniere perché se no lo ammazzavano e si era presentato come un povero profugo, era riuscito però era stato preso dai tedeschi e mandato in Germania. Però è riuscito a sopravvivere perché mangiava, però quando ritornava, quando è ritornato ci ha raccontato che mangiava la pelle delle patate che buttavano via i tedeschi. Mio zio era molto furbo, eh furbetto anche lui ma, però insomma, che lavorava in banca anche lui, però all’istituto, dov’era, al, ehm, coso di Novara, ne. E lì a Pallanza c’era la, ma era furbo furbo mio zio e perché per riuscire a e quando è ritornato però, è ritornato nel ’46 o ’47 dopo perché, sa, prima che ritornassero indietro, ma insomma, comunque, è ritornato. Io poi mi ricordo altre cose. Che ogni tanto, con la mia mamma, andavamo al paese di mia nonna, che ci dava magari qualche gallina magari che riuscivo perché dovevano portare tutto all’ammasso ai tedeschi e invece lei riusciva a rubacchiare qualche chilo di farina, qualche uovo, qualche gallina, così andavamo lì, prendavamo il treno, andavamo lì a Sartirana, che mia mamma era di Sartirana, e riuscivamo a portare a casa qualche sacchetto di farina, qualche uova, così, che mia mamma sulla stufa faceva, faceva da mangiare. Faceva il pane bianco, che il pane bianco era un dolce addirittura, oppure metteva l’uovo, faceva qualche cosa di, insomma, una gallina che riusciva. Perché la tessera annonaria è continuata anche dopo la fine della guerra eh, perché è continuata mi pare fino al ’47, non, fino al ’47, perciò si è. Non è che si stesse tanto bene anche finita la guerra, no. Mio zio, mio zio, quello lì, il fratello di mia mamma che era un, ritenuto un fascista perché, ma siccome non aveva fatto male a nessuno, anzi, faceva solo piaceri appunto, faceva andare i bambini alle colonie, accompagnava alle colonie così, non ha avuto niente, è scappato dalla mia zia, quella lì di, che era la sua sorella insomma praticamente, lì sul Lago Maggiore, ma è stato via due o tre giorni e poi è ritornato che nessuno gli ha fatto niente, non, perché era una bravissima persona mio zio Berto. Niente, basta, questo per quanto riguarda il. Poi nel ’47 io trovato il lavoro presso un ragioniere, però avevo fatto giusto le tre medie e basta, non avevo né diploma né niente, avevo appunto fatto solo la terza media. E però mi piaceva di più ragioneria che fare le magistrali. Prendevo sempre da mia sorella che gli ricopiavo gli appunti, lei li faceva magari in stenografia, io invece li facevo in chiaro e allora lei mi dava magari una lira o dieci lire forse perché dopo mi pagava di più. E io guadagnavo la mancetta ma dopo prendevo anch’io lo stipendio, poco, perché i ragionieri non pagavano per niente ma insomma piuttosto di niente e poi imparavo. Dopo nel ’47, questo sono andato nel ’47 neh dal ragioniere, ecco. Nel ’47 mi sono iscritta alle scuole civiche, che erano le scuole civiche di Milano che facevano ragioneria al Parini. Al Parini facevano le serali, era la scuola civica di Milano che facevano ragioneria. E poi mi sono nel ’54, no, dopo ho cambiato, però sono andata in una scuola privata alla, al Volta neh, e poi ho fatto gli esami e mi sono diplomata nel ’54 ecco. E nel ’55 invece ho trovato posto a Selezione del Reader’s Digest, era un giornale, era il giornale di, Reader’s Digest era americano, era uno dei giornali più in voga, mensile, è un mensile. Ma faceva, vendeva anche tante e dischi e giradischi e libri e tutto, oltre la rivista, la rivista era, ecco. E sono stata lì 32 anni. 32 anni più 8 del ragioniere ho fatto 40 anni di iscrizione all’INPS, ecco. E nel ’50, nel ’87 invece sono andata in pensione, ecco, con quarant’anni di anzianità. E adesso sono qui, malata, malandata, sì, no, e perché purtroppo con quello che ho avuto non sono, non sto tanto bene, ma.
ZG: Sì. Io volevo fare.
AB: Dica.
ZG: Mi sono segnato un sacco di domande.
AB: Sì.
ZG: Se vuole, iniziamo. Allora. La prima era una curiosità mia. La sua era una famiglia contadina, giusto?
AB: Sì. La mia mamma viene da una famiglia contadina. Anche mio padre veniva da una famiglia contadina, però faceva il muratore. Dalla Lomellina venivano.
ZG: Però una sua nonna ha potuto regalarvi una radio, ha detto prima.
AB: Sì perché mia nonna, la nonna, la mamma di mio papà viveva con la figlia, la quale si era sposata molto bene e aveva, vero, aveva un albergo. Lei, cioè il marito aveva un albergo. Mia nonna era andata a aiutare, era furba, tremenda era mia nonna, era una donna molto in gamba ma un po’ tremenda. Era riuscita, era l’unico regalo che ci aveva fatto, eh, perchè lei naturalmente viveva con la figlia, il figlio lo teneva meno da conto ecco. E l’unica cosa, ma siccome mia sorella si chiamava come lei, quel regalo lì ce l’ha fatto, ecco. E c’aveva regalato la radio, che a quel tempo la radio, avere la radio era una cosa, una cosa che non si poteva, per noi era un lusso, ecco, era un lusso.
ZG: E senta invece, oltre a suo zio, avevate altri parenti che, insomma...
AB: Erano fascisti?
ZG: Sì.
AB: No, altri parenti no, c’era solo mio zio, che era il fratello della mia mamma, l’unico fratello della mia mamma. Perché loro erano in cinque in famiglia, un fratello e quattro sorelle erano. No, solo mio zio, quel mio zio lì.
ZG: E lui come mai non è tornato in guerra?
AB: Chi, mio zio?
ZG: Sì.
AB: Eh mio zio perché aveva fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, era più giovane di mio papà, non era stato richiamato, ma non so per quale ragione. Lavorava dove, lavorava in un’azienda farmaceutica perché aveva un po’ studiato, Perché, adesso le spiego. Sartirana era sotto la, c’era un duca che era il padrone del paese, ducato di Sartirana era ed era imparentato con i, gli Aosta. Tant’è vero che il ragazzino, quando era stato, nel ’42 o ’43 che era, era lì nel castello di Sartirana. Ma mio zio, ma questo duca di Sartirana era, aveva due figlie. Una non si era sposata perché era mezza inscemita. Invece una aveva sposato un principe di Hannover e quando il marito era morto lei, per non perdere il titolo di principessa, non si era più sposata. Però aveva fatto tante, era padrona, praticamente era padrona di tutto il paese, di tutti i terreni, così. Aveva fatto molto per la, per la gente del paese. Per le donne, aveva, ad Alessandria aveva messo su la scuola per sarte e mia mamma l’aveva potuta frequentare, tant’è vero che mia mamma faceva bene, era una brava sarta perché aveva studiato proprio nella scuola della principessa. E invece mio zio l’aveva, si vede forse perché era tornato lì dal, eh no, tu non lo sai perché tu non ti sei mai interessata, ma io le sapevo queste cose perché mia mamma le raccontava, raccontava. La principessa poi aveva preso mia mamma per fare i vestiti di, prima che lei si sposasse, per fare i vestiti, i vestiti di casa delle domestiche insomma e anche per lei, fare i vestiti di casa, così. E li voleva molto bene. Poi siccome si aggirava per i boschi una volta si era persa lì dei boschi de, perché mia mamma abitava in una cascina ma sperduta, vicino alla, Bisognosa si chiamava, si figuri che cascina poteva essere. Comunque era vicino al Po mort perché lì passa, passavano i bracci del Po ma che chiamavano il Po mort perché sono bracci un po’ di, da poco ecco, e che tagliava il Monferrato alla Lomellina. Perché qui c’è la Lomellina dalla parte della, nella parte della Lombardia e invece nella parte del Po ma piemontese c’è il Monferrato e mia mamma veniva dal Monferrato, i suoi del, contadini ma del Monferrato che insomma si sono trasferiti lì nella Lomellina. E una volta si era sperduta la principessa, mia mamma questa qui lo raccontava sempre, e mio nonno l’aveva tirata fuori dai pasticci, come la signora con mia sorella. E allora è diventato e poi l’aveva portata a casa e le aveva presentato la famiglia, era praticamente un suo dipendente perché lavorava le terre della principessa, del duca, del duca di Sartirana e gliele aveva presentate e siccome c’era mia, l’unica che non faceva la contadina era la mia mamma perché faceva la sarta ma se no le sue tre sorelle facevano tutte le contadine. E gliel’aveva, allora lei ogni tanto quando, e poi gli aveva dato da mangiare o da bere, non so, il latte, così, e si era affezionata, la principessa si era affezionata sia alla mia mamma che la, che. Poi aveva dei domestici che erano parenti della mia mamma e perciò era particolarmente, insomma, la conosceva bene. E perciò non. Invece per le donne aveva messo sù questo atelier dove imparavano a fare le sarte e invece per gli uomini li aveva mandati, mio zio veniva dalla guerra ed era un dipendente di, che sarebbe finito di fare il contadino, le aveva fatto studiare, aveva fatto qualche scuola tant’è vero che poi aveva trovato da impiegarsi in questo, in questa la Paganini Villani, che era una ditta farmaceutica. E allora non era andato a militare perché... Poi si era sposato.
ZG: Fantastico. Ehm, senta invece, della vita in Isola, quando eravate in Isola....
AB: Ah, si stava bene, guardi. Io venivo a casa di sera, alle undici di sera, con un nebbione che non, perché venivo a casa dalle, dalla scuola serale. Venivo a casa magari con dei miei compagni che abitavano. Ma io entravo all’Isola che era piena di nebbia da non finire, io mi sentivo sicura, guardi, non avevo nessunissima paura. L’isola era un, una zona bella. La Via Confalonieri, la Via Volturno, la Via Borsieri. Eh, e poi, che si doveva fare la Via Borsieri, Piazzale Tito Minniti, che cos’è, ah cantavi , sì è vero, io salivo dalle, siccome avevo paura invece fare le scale perché ero al quarto piano, allora cantavo, e la gente, però erano le undici, era. Mia mamma mi sentiva, veniva fuori che mi preparava da mangiare perché io mangiavo alle undici di sera, quando ritornavo da scuola. E cominciavo a cantare e allora mia mamma veniva fuori, mi veniva ‘Tina, Tina, Tina’ e io arrivavo a casa e sapevo di essere aspettata, insomma.
ZG: Ma lei faceva le serali quando faceva le medie?
AB: No, facevo le serali quando ero andata dal ragioniere. Quando nel, dopo il ’47. Perchè io le medie le ho finite nel ’45. In aprile del ’45 io ho finito, il 25 aprile io facevo la terza media. Nel ’45 avevo tredici anni, no.
ZG: Eh, senta.
AB: Tant’è vero che non le ho finite, non le ho finite ma mi avevano promosso lo stesso perché.
ZG: E senta, sempre lì in Isola, prima sua sorella faceva riferimento però al fatto che, anche lei le diceva prima che era un quartiere molto popolare, che c’era un po’ di delinquenza.
AB: Oh, sì, sì, era ritenuto un, era ritenuto ed era proprio popolare, popolare, popolare. Case vecchie, erano case vecchie, tutte, Via Borsieri, Via Confalonieri, Via
MB: Via Serio
AB: Viale, no Via Serio era già più avanti, era già più verso la, la fontana. Piazzale Tito Minniti, ecco lì, proprio là, Piazzale Tito Minniti. Quando noi andavamo a fare il mese di maggio nel ’45 si andava in chiesa a fare il mese di maggio, sa, che mese di maggio è mese della Madonna. E mi ricordo che quando siamo passati di lì era il 25 aprile, era appena passato e maggio siamo passati di lì. Io mi ricordo che c’era uno appeso perché era stato ucciso, era stato strangolato, non so, che era il fratello della pollivendola che abitava nella casa ed era stato ucciso dai e alcuni invece li avevano uccisi nel, nel muro dell’oratorio di, del Don Eugenio, che è il Sacro Volto, questa. Lì in Via Volturno c’è la chiesa del Sacro Volto che era la chiesa del Don, Don Bussa, che però dopo è stato fatto uno dei giusti del... Ti ricordi quando il Peppino è andato che l’hanno festeggiato e mio fratello è andato in Israele che avevano, che l’avevano festeggiato, l’avevano. Perciò una personalità, il Don Eugenio.
ZG: Ehm, senta, volevo. Arrivando al periodo della guerra,
AB: Sì.
ZG: Lei ci ha detto prima che ha scoperto tramite la radio che era scoppiata la guerra.
AB: Sì, sì.
ZG: In famiglia se ne era parlato?
AB: Ma, non mi pare. Forse se ne parlava che doveva scoppiare la guerra perché c’era, ma non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo, no.
ZG: E la sera del discorso alla radio di Mussolini, eravate tutti insieme in famiglia?
AB: Eh probabile, probabile, sì, senz’altro.
ZG: Ah ok. Quindi non si ricorda se suo padre o sua madre avevano fatto dei commenti, sul discorso?
AB: No, ma loro non s’interessavano nè di politica nè niente. E non erano neanche nè fascisti nè niente perché.
MB: [unclear]
AB: Eh, sì, c’era mio padre che solo che diceva: ’mi raccomando, scrivete Duce bene, eh, scrivetelo bene’ perché a quel tempo il fascista era ritenuto e anche con mio zio:’ mi raccomando eh, zio Berto’, che era, noi sapevamo che era fascista perché quando era ritornato e poi quando andava a accompagnare i bambini, mia zia, che era la moglie, andava a accompagnare con la moglie del federale, andava a accompagnare i bambini alle colonie, passeggiava avanti e indietro sulle panchine della stazione centrale, a noi sembrava che fosse la moglie del federale invece era la moglie di un povero diavolo, ma insomma. Poi noi eravamo vestiti da piccoli italiani, ti ricordi? Che avevamo le calze nere delle mamme, che a quel tempo portavano le calze nere. Li facevano sulla un bottone e si faceva la,
MB: Ah sì.
AB: Il cappello, si metteva su in testa la calza della mamma con il fondo, mettevano il bottone veniva il cappellino della piccola italiana. Mia mamma m’aveva fatto la divisa eh! Perché a quel tempo si usava così, eh. D’altra parte ancora tanta grazia che ogni tanto davano dei pacchi, ti ricordi, che la
MB: Noi, non ne avevamo mai usufruito.
AB: No, dai, ma non dir pacchi dai
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a dare la.
AB: Io mi ricordo quando andavo a prendere
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera, io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera.
AB: Ah sì, perché forse c’è stato un periodo, forse nel ’38-’39, chiedevano,
MB: Dalle tombole di San Marco [?]
AB: Sì, chiedevano. Il Duce ha chiesto la
MB: L’oro.
AB: L’oro alla patria e allora tutte le donne, anche per farsi vedere, per, davano la vera, la vera, gli ori. Ce n’erano pochi, c’era poco, l’unico oro che avevano erano delle verone perché usavano. Però mia mamma l’aveva portata e dopo se l’era fatta rifare.
[ ZG: laughs]
MB: Perché poverina.
MB: Non so se aveva portato la, quella di mio papà o aveva portato la sua ma so, mi ricordo che erano una, erano vere alte, più alte di quelle che si usano adesso.
ZG: Quindi ha fatto fare rifare la fede?
MB: E aveva fatto rifare la fede.
ZG: E in che materiale era?
MB: Eh materiale d’oro. Aveva…
ZG: Dopo averla donata?
MB: Eh sì, perché dovevano far vedere perché lì venivano scritti, eh. Buffadossi, eh, ha lasciato la vera.
AB: Ha fatto la strada quella sera lì.
ZG: Senta, invece, suo padre era capofabbricato.
AB: Sì.
ZB: Il suo lavoro che cos’era esattamente?
AB: Eh doveva curare che, quando suonava l’allarme, venisse diretto bene il flusso alla cantina perché le cantine erano cantinacce, non erano mica le cantine che ci sono adesso, che sono belle pulite. C’erano, io mi ricordo che passavano i topi, eh, perché erano case vecchie, erano umide così. E doveva guardare che ci fosse le panchine perché mettevano le panchine, la gente andava lì, si sedeva e stava lì ad aspettare, contarsela sù che...
ZG: Quindi lui faceva questo lavoro di insomma far affluire le persone in cantina.
AB: Sì.
ZG: La cantina spettava soltanto al vostro palazzo o c’erano anche altri palazzi che dovevano [unclear]?
AB: No, ogni palazzo aveva la sua cantina.
ZG: E come mai vostro padre non vi svegliava, quando suonava l’allarme?
AB: Eh perché era compito della mia mamma ma mia mamma, lui scappava via [laughs] e mia mamma stava lì. Lei non c’era, c’ero solo io e io non avevo paura come non aveva paura la mia mamma. Mio fratello seguiva mio padre e via, perché lavorava anche lui. Aveva cinque anni più di me, perciò nel ’43 così.
MB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
AB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
ZG: Ma, e non avevate paura neanche dopo che si era incendiato il tetto della casa?
AB: No, non si era incendiato il tetto, si erano incendiato le gelosie.
ZG: Ah, le gelosie, giusto. E neanche dopo quell’occasione?
AB: Io non, non avevo paura, tant’è vero che pochissime volte sono andata giù in cantina. Non mi piaceva perché bisognava andare su e giù dalle scale, mamma mia, e dormivo. No, non mi piaceva.
ZG: E invece quando eravate a scuola è capitato che suonasse l’allarme?
AB: Ah sì, di giorno e lì era di giorno, lì invece mi piaceva perché ero con i miei compagni. Stavamo lì e magari dovevamo essere interrogate perciò c’era andata bene. La professoressa Lighini era un po’ severotta, eh.
ZG: E alle elementari come passavate il tempo nel rifugio?
AB: E niente, chiacchierando, chiacchierando.
ZG: Le maestre non vi, non c’erano compagni spaventati, qualcuno che aveva paura?
AB: Ma era solo le medie, perché io nelle elementari no eh. Nelle elementari non mi è mai successo. Perché nelle elementari, le avevo già finite perchè nel, io sono andata a scuola nelle elementari fino al ’42 perché, ma nel ’42 non c’erano i bombardamenti, ecco, sono incominciati nel ’43 i bombardamenti feroci che erano, che erano, e dopo ’43, dopo che c’era stato l’armistizio, perché prima no. C’erano i tedeschi che erano nostri alleati e noi effettivamente, quando abbiamo fatto l’armistizio li abbiamo lasciati, li abbiamo traditi in un certo senso e adesso.
ZG: Senta invece, tornando invece alle cantine di, a casa vostra. Com’è che le persone scendevano in queste cantine, c’era tipo una gerarchia, scendevano prima alcune persone poi delle altre?
AB: No, no no, venivano giù. Il primo piano era il primo a sedersi e poi c’erano gli altri piani e noi eravamo al quarto piano, eravamo gli ultimi a scendere.
ZG: Ok. Ehm, invece un’altra domanda. Lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore?
AB: Sì, da mia zia, da questa mia zia che era la moglie di un carabinieri che era stato richiamato. Lui era più giovane di mia mamma perché aveva forse un dieci anni, mia zia aveva dieci anni meno, lui era del ’92, lei era del ’02 e lui, eh, sarà stato del ‘900. Perciò nel ’40 quando era stato richiamato aveva quarant’anni.
ZG: Ehm, lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore per sfuggire ai bombardamenti.
AB: Eh sì perché.
ZG: E come mai nel ’43 ha deciso di tornare?
AB: Eh perché mia mamma a un certo momento ha detto: ’ritorna, se moriamo, moriamo tutti insieme’, ecco.
ZG: Ehm, senta invece mi. Volevo farle una serie di domande sempre su, sempre sul quartiere Isola durante proprio il periodo dei bombardamenti. Avevate paura di rapine in casa o?
AB: No, rapine no, perché cosa vuole, si chiudeva la porta. A quel tempo non si chiudeva neanche la porta perché io a dir la verità, avevamo la porta e l’antiporte, erano case così. Ma spesso e volentieri noi andavamo a dormire senza, anche dopo appena finita la guerra non chiudavamo neanche la porta. Non sempre si chiudeva la porta.
MB: Eh dai.
AB: Sa, rapine, cosa vuole che rapinassero in casa nostra? Se portavano via noi [laughs], dovevano darci da mangiare, no no per carità. Non c’era niente da rubare. Giusto quando andavamo al paese della mia nonna, che portavamo a casa quel sacchetto di, e dopo per passare il Ticino perché noi dalla Lomellina bisogna passare il Ticino a Vigevano bisogna passare il Ticino e il treno si fermava prima del Ticino, noi lo facevamo a piedi il pezzo del Ticino perché se no c’era il pericolo che bombardassero e poi c’era un altro treno che dal Ticino, dal ponte del Ticino a Milano via San Cristoforo, e noi poi prendavamo l’8 perché qui girava l’8 in Piazzale Tirana. A quel tempo l’8 era il tram principe per arrivare alla, alla Isola. C’era il 4 e l’8, che girava l’Isola. Noi prendavamo lì da San Cristoforo o da Porta Genova, ma noi scendavamo a San Cristoforo con il nostro pacchettino e il chilo di farina, e due o tre uova, la gallina, così e andavamo a casa, io e la mamma.
ZG: E senta.
AB: Perché tu non sei mai andata a Sartirana quando, invece io andavo con la mia mamma.
ZG: Però suo padre durante i bombardamenti la valigia con i gioielli di famiglia [unclear] [laughs]
AB: Sì, i gioielli [laughs], cosa vuole,
ZG: Quelli lì li portava via però.
AB: Ah sì, li portava via. C’era, io mi ricordo che c’era un taglio di vestito, poi forse c’erano delle lenzuola c’era un, era un valigione tutto grande, sa di quelli di cartone e pressato. Quello, c’era un taglio di vestiti, c’era, c’erano le lenzuola e che cosa d’altro, niente, nient’alto, non c’era nient’altro di, cosa vuole che portasse. E da mangiare, da mangiare sì, portava giù qualche cosa ma, un panino ma, ma non certamente pane e salame che non si trovava. Era tutto tesserato, si figuri.
ZG: Ehm, e gli spostamenti invece erano, per andare al paese di sua nonna erano facili o?
AB: No no, non tanto facili, perché c’era sempre il pericolo che bombardassero il, perché le vie ferrate erano le più, le più appetibili per le bombe, eh capisce? Magari erano spostamenti di forze armate addirittura, non era, non guardavano se. Perché erano odiati poi gli americani perché erano gli americani dicevano, che i russi non bombardavano perché erano troppo lontano. Invece gli americani erano quelli che bombardavano e venivano odiati perché erano loro che bombardavano.
ZG: Ma ehm, della possibilità che le ferrovie potessero venire bombardate lei lo sapeva già allora. Cioè chi glielo diceva?
AB: Eh me lo, eh si sapeva, cosa vuole, si è, si diventa svegli anche, quand’anche, anche se siamo bambini ma.
ZG: Senta invece volevo farle le ultime domande. Tornando al quartiere Isola. Quando mi diceva che aveva paura di attraversare la via in cui c’erano prima i fascisti e poi i tedeschi.
AB: Eh sì. Via Guercino guardi, e la Via Guercino c’era il comando tedesco e prima nella via, quella via lì che poi è attraversata da Via Guercino, c’era la Carlo Tenca ed era la sede delle Brigate Nere. Facevano, mettevano paura proprio, vedeva, sentiva questo passo cadenzato erano magari tre o quattro insieme [makes a thumping noise], le cose chiodate credo che avessero i, mettevano paura.
ZG: Ma avevano anche un atteggiamento nei suoi confronti oppure giravano delle voci su qualcosa?
AB: No, dicevano che erano cattivi e andavano a prendere i renitenti, renitenti alla leva venivano. Ogni tanto passavano le ronde, vero, ti ricordi? No, tu non te lo ricordi, io mi ricordo che nella nostra casa c’era un ragazzo, un ragazzo che era un poco più vecchio del e proprio lui che era il fidanzato di una sua amica che aveva la sua età, lui aveva forse due o tre anni più di lei e quando è stato chiamato che aveva giusto vent’anni è stato chiamato perché mandavano a chiamare no, con un foglio così e lui. I suoi hanno fatto così ma hanno fatto male perché poi vivevano male. Hanno chiuso una camera, l’hanno chiusa e come se non esistesse. Avevano tre camere e invece hanno fatto come se fossero due camere. E in quello lì c’era il ragazzo però ogni tanto lui si, guardava fuori dalla finestra e la gente della casa, guardando fuori, lo vedeva che veniva fuori. Poi lui era sparito, ‘sto ragazzo era sparito, perché era come noi, erano tre figli, lui in quella famiglia lì, era tre, di tre figli maschi. Invece noi, una figlia femmina e aveva 25, a quel tempo era del ’25, il primo, il Camillo avrà avuto, sarà stato del ’22 o del ’23, poi c’era il Franco che aveva l’età di mio fratello e poi c’era l’Antonio che era quello che mi accompagnava a scuola quando andavo a fare le medie, che aveva, era forse, io sono del ’32, lui forse era del ’31 o del ’30. E mi ricordo che mi, mi accompagnava lì in via e mia mamma mi lasciava andare perché se no cosa faceva. Io non potevo andare a scuola, lei non poteva mica venirmi a accompagnare che doveva lavorare [unclear] non faceva tutte queste e allora andavo. Erano proprio come una scalletta così e quando è sparito, che non si è visto più il Camillo, eh, dov’è andato a finire, poi abbiamo capito perché la sua casa, il suo appartamento era di tre camere e ad un certo momento si è trovato solo due camere. Perché era lì. Loro lì si vede che gli passavano da mangiare e via.
ZG: Ma ehm, lo hanno scoperto le autorità?
AB: No, non l’hanno scoperto.
ZG: Qaunto tempo ha passato così?
AB: Eh, avrà passato due anni. Eh sì. Ha vissuto male.
ZG: E poi è riapparso, finita la guerra.
AB: Poi è riapparso. Poi era fidanzato con, con la
MB: Con la Bruna.
AB: Con la Bruna.
ZG: Ehm
AB: Che poi non ha sposato però.
ZG: Senta invece, l’altra storia di quartiere, mi può parlarmi di quella di Don Eugenio?
AB: E di Don Eugenio era ritenuto una brava, una bravissima persona, infatti dopo, finita la guerra, è stato l’unico che ha messo su sulla. L’oratorio, nell’oratorio dove prendeva solo i ragazzi, i maschi, non era un oratorio misto. Però lui ha fatto, faceva i film al giovedì e alla domenica mi pare, i film che noi, il cinema non si andava al cinema, invece da lui si vedevano dei bei film, magari.
MB: La sera.
AB: Alla sera.
MB: L’Amante indiana.
AB: L’Amante indiana. Una volta abbiamo visto, sì, era bello. I film che magari non erano recentissimi però per noi erano recente perché non vedevamo mai niente. Cinema, dov’è che, c’era il Vox, c’era il Farini come qui nel, il Vox che era in Via Farini. E il Farini che è in Via Farini. E lì erano due cinema che c’erano in tutta la, in tutta l’Isola. Perché gli altri, non c’erano altri e noi si andava lì a. Ah, poi faceva il teatro e le parti da donna le faceva fare dagli uomini, neh. Eh perché non si usava fare, le ragazze, fate lavorare le ragazze. Però erano belle perché poi a un, ah, ecco dell’Alfredo e del Luciano. Nella casa di Don Eugenio poi era stata messa una famiglia di gente che veniva forse da Rovigo così, neh. Comunque insomma era stata messa che i Bussa erano andati a stare con il Don Eugenio a fare la mamma e la sorella, gli facevano da perpetua diciamo ed erano state, stavano lì in canonica con il e in questa casa è stato il Luciano, c’era l’Alfredo che aveva, era un pochettino più vecchio di te e il Luciano che era un pochettino più vecchio di me. Siccome era un ragazzotto che un po’ avventuroso, il Luciano l’ultimo figlio che ehm, non so, si era messo nei pasticci, era stato messo in prigione a San Vittore. Un ragazzo che poco più vecchio di me, avrà avuto, nel ’44 così avrà avuto, io quanti avevo, avevo dodici anni, lui avrà avuto un quindici anni eh. Era stato messo e allora lì. Sua mamma, siccome noi avevamo la legna, facevamo andare la stufa e avevamo la legna perché mio padre portava a casa dei rimasugli di legna e la sua mamma veniva sempre su da noi che così si scaldava e nello stesso tempo chiacchierava lì con la mia mamma. Mia mamma lavorava a macchina e lei, lei chiacchierava. Era grossa [emphasises], era grossissima. Sì, la mamma del, eh dai, dell’Alfredo, no, no, era, sarà stato un centocinquanta chili. E non avevamo né poltrone né sedie per farla sedere allora si sedeva in una cassa dove c’era dentro la legna, però un giorno si è seduta, l’ha sfondata [laughs], ed è caduta dentro la cassa. La cassa era una cassa di legno ma grande eh, grande così. Il coperchio si è rovesciato e lei è caduta dentro. È che da rompersi l’osso del collo, altro che fare il [unclear].
ZG: E questo, e Don Eugenio ha aiutato il, il ragazzo a San Vittore?
AB: Eh, credo di sì. Eh certo che l’avrà aiutato, avrà cercato di portarlo fuori perché era un suo protetto, era uno di quelli.
ZG: E voi avete scoperto che Don Eugenio ha aiutato degli ebrei e dei partigiani dopo, finita la guerra?
AB: No, questo l’abbiamo, questo l’abbiamo scoperto finita la guerra. Che abbiamo saputo che lui ha salvato degli ebrei e dei partigiani. Mentre invece, sono venuti. Questo l’abbiamo saputo dopo. E quello di, della, quando è stato, è stato un po’, è stato poi mica neanche tanti anni fa che l’hanno, hanno messo l’albero dei giusti. Perché sa che gli ebrei hanno una foresta fatta con gli alberi.
MB: [laughs] Perché sai che, sì [laughs]
AB: E perché, non è così? è vero. C’è una foresta fatta solo di alberi con i nomi dei giusti che hanno aiutato gli ebrei.
ZG: Senta, le faccio le ultime due domande. Il Pippo, cosa si ricorda del Pippo?
AB: E del Pippo dicevano che era un italiano andato in America, un americano che era diventato diventato americano e che veniva a bombardare [background noise]
AB: Buongiorno, scusi tanto. Dicevano così e, si diceva che fosse un italiano americano che avesse delle spiate di qualcuno che gli diceva dove buttare la bomba. Ma lo chiamavano il Pippo, non so io. Era noto dappertutto dicevano il Pippo. Stanotte arriva il Pippo perché guardavano la giornata, se era una bella giornata questo si sapeva quando si, quando era in. Noi, io ero sul Lago Maggiore, se era una bella giornata, oggi il Pippo va a Milano. E noi avevamo paura perché a Milano c’erano tutti, tutti quelli sfollati perché ce n’erano di sfollati lì sul Lago Maggiore.
ZG: Ehm, questa storia qua lì del Pippo chi la raccontava?
AB: Eh ma tutti lo dicevano. Parlando sì, tutti. Perchè vede anche mia sorella lo sapeva che, non sapeva niente mia sorella perché mia sorella non. Io invece parlavo con gli altri bambini, gli altri, perché giocavamo eh, nonostante la guerra, noi si giocava per la strada in Via Confalonieri, si correva, si faceva. Poi nella, nella nostra casa, in Via Confalonieri 11, c’era un bel cortile che adesso dopo ultimamente era diventato il box di tutta la gente che, ma un tempo. Che bel colore di pantaloni che ha, e molto, è vero.
ZG: Senta, proprio ultimissime domande. Lei sapeva chi vi bombardava?
AB: Dicevano gli americani.
ZG: Che cosa, che cosa pensava allora di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh male. Perché devono bombardarci, di colpa non ne abbiamo noi, noi gente. I civili che cosa devono fare? I soldati va bene, sono comandati, ma noi che non eravamo neanche comandati, non sparavamo mica a loro. Eh, bombardarci voleva dire farci fare la morte del topo proprio perché non potevamo scappare, potevamo andare via.
ZG: Finita la guerra, ha più ripensato a, ai bombardamenti, a cosa si provava?
AB: No, perché dopo, quando sono venuti gli americani, gli americani hanno portato l’UNRRA, c’era l’UNRRA che davano le stoffe,
MB: I vestiti.
AB: Che davano i vestiti, così e vabbè, ben, ringraziamo, cosa dobbiamo fare.
ZG: Senta, adesso che cosa pensa invece di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh sempre male perché non era mica giusto. Però d’altra parte anche noi che abbiamo tradito i tedeschi, cosa pretendi. E poi se la prendevano con noi, con la gente inerme, mentre invece erano i capi che avevano sbagliato eh. Il re per esempio si è comportato male.
ZG: Senta, ultimissimissima domanda. La casa di sass, la vostra casa. Esiste ancora?
AB: Sì, certo. Adesso c’è la targa proprio per il Don Eugenio. C’è la targa che all’11 di Via Confalonieri, lei vede la targa proprio che qui è stata la casa dove è vissuto Don Eugenio Bussa, uno dei giusti d’Israele mi pare, mi pare che ci sia. Che è bruttissima. Adesso però l’hanno un po’ rimessa a posto perché mi pare che abbiano messo l’ascensore. Figuriamoci che noi la facevamo tutta a piedi, adesso adesso chissà come farei.
ZG: Senta, io vi ringrazio moltissimo e concluderei l’intervista.
AB: Va bene. Che sono intervenuta quando non dovevo.
ZG: Ma no.
SB: Ma no, ci mancherebbe.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Annunciata Buffadossi
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Annunciata Buffadossi recollects her wartime life in Milan. Annunciata stresses poor-quality housing in a low-class neighbourhood close to potential targets; emphasises how much she feared Germans and Fascists; and speaks with affection of her old house, a block of flats with shared balconies. Describes the effects of fire on her house and recollects how shelter life was like. Contrasts the boldness of her mother with the behaviour of her father, who was easily frightened in spite of his role as warden. Annunciata stresses her own care-free attitude, explaining how day bombings were welcomed as opportunities to skip school tests, and night attacks regarded as an annoyance rather than a serious menace. Mentions her brief evacuee experience which ended in 1943, when the bombing war intensified and the family resolved to face the danger together in Milan. Describes aircraft flying over Lake Maggiore, and how children tried to guess their target. Describes subterfuges to get food in spite of rationing, and mentions many war-related anecdotes: reprisals and post-war revenge, a draft dodger hiding in a concealed room for years, and military internees. Mentions Eugenio Bussa, one of the Righteous Among the Nations, explaining his benevolent activities, as well as his role as helpers of partisans and Jews. Tells many anecdotes of her relatives, especially in connection with the Duchess of Sartirana and her charitable activities. Describes Pippo as an aircraft piloted by an Italian American, who relied on information passed to him by helpers. Describes Americans as generally hated for the bombing of cities and killing innocent people. Links the bombing war with Italy’s change of allegiance and recognises the contribution of the allied after the end of the conflict.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-05-28
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:19:20 audio recording
Language
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ita
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pietra Ligure
Italy--Pallanza
Europe--Lake Maggiore
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Identifier
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ABuffadossiA170528
PBuffadossiA1701
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
fear
Holocaust
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/63/555/PBuffadossiM1701.2.jpg
0e62c55de5e81f82fafa2ce196209356
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/63/555/ABuffadossiM170528.1.mp3
1b1f75c5a55a7d3c9920a6d6e8c146e5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Buffadossi, Marialuigia
M Buffadossi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marialuigia Buffadossi (b. 1925) who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan and in the Lake Como area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Buffadossi, M
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ZG: È partito.
SB: Ok. Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Sara Buda. L’intervistata è la signora Marialuigia Buffadossi. Nella stanza sono presenti la sorella Annunciata Buffadossi, la signora Nava Spizzichino, amica, e Zeno Gaiaschi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted] presso la parrocchia omonima. Oggi è il 28 maggio 2017. Siamo a Milano. Dunque, cominciamo da prima della guerra, giusto per capire un attimo qual’era il suo mondo. Ci racconta un pochino, appunto, come era composta la sua famiglia, che cosa facevano i suoi genitori, e poi appunto ci dice anche quando è nata lei.
MB: Io sono nata il 19 ottobre del ’25. Mio padre lavorava come muratore presso una ditta, una ditta milanese, eravamo poveri e mia madre era casalinga, faceva, cuciva camicette, allora si usava cucire per certe ditte camicette, così e lei guadagnava qualche cosa in questo senso. Io lavoravo, no io lavoravo, io ho fatto le scuole elementari presso la, abitavo, allora abitavo in via Confalonieri 11.
SB: A Milano.
MB: A Milano. Purtroppo era una casa, la chiamavano la casa di sass, perché era una casa storica. L’ambiente era l’ambiente di operai. Poi avevamo nel cortile due persone che passavano per ladri abituali, però io andavo tanto tranquilla, mi trovavo, andavo spesso perché ero, non dico non molto religiosa ma frequentavo l’ambiente religioso. La mia parrocchia era Santa Maria alla Fontana, molto distante da Via Confalonieri perché molto distante. Ma io la mattina mi ricordo che andavo alle sette meno un quarto in parrocchia e non avevo paura assolutamente, andavo tranquilla. Io ho fatto le elementari e poi quando avevo, dopo cinque anni delle elementari bisognava fare l’esame di ammissione e sono stata ammessa alle scuole magistrali inferiori perché il mio desiderio è sempre stato di fare la maestra, ma purtroppo i miei non potevano mantenermi a studi così pesanti perché allora l’ordinamento era quattro inferiori e tre superiori. Hanno potuto fare, farmi fsare il corso magistrali inferiori che io ho finito, dunque ho finito nel 1940, nel 1940, ecco. Poi ho trovato un posto da un avvocato che aveva quasi promesso ai miei che mi avrebbe fatto studiare. Ma insomma anche lui era un avvocato civilista e anche lui non era tanto un avvocato di grido. Questo avvvocato però aveva la moglie che era figlia dei, adesso non ricordo più come si chiamano, era di San Marino la moglie, e quindi lei spesso andava a San Marino e lui faceva le pratiche perché allora di divorzio non se ne parlava neanche, faceva le pratiche perché a San Marino potevano avere il divorzio insomma. Il mio avvocato era bravo perché diceva:’se lei’, io facevo la stenografa, la stenografa un po’ così, ‘se lei non capisce una parola, me lo chieda che io non guardo il suo vocabolario, gliela spiego io’, insomma. E la moglie poi mi voleva un bene immenso, immenso [emphais]. Ecco, questo è tutto. Io quando ero impiegata dall’avvocato ero in Via Podgora che era vicino al tribunale. Loro d’estate andavano via e io rimanevo lì da sola. Avevo una paura santissima perché a quindici anni stare da sola, però insomma stavo ecco, perché avevo la fortuna di aver trovato il posto. Inizlamente non mi aveva messo a posto con le marche, ma poi mi ha messo a posto con le marche, le marche con l’INPS, perché. E siamo arrivati nel ’43. Nel ’43 una mia amica mi ha proposto di entrare in banca perché era all’ufficio del personale e allora nel febbraio del ’43 mi ha fatto fare la domanda e mi hanno preso al Credito Italiano dove io ero all’ufficio del personale quindi in una posizione di privilegio diciamo.
ZG: [unclear]
MB: Nel ’43 siamo stati un po’, qualche tempo, mi hanno assunto, mi ricordo, alla fine del mese di febbraio quindi non hanno neanche aspettato neanche un momento insomma, neanche il primo di marzo, sono stata assunta il 22 di febbraio mi ricordo e poi la banca, siccome c’erano i bombardamenti molto pesanti qui a Milano, la banca ha fatto sfollare il suo personale a Cernobbio vicino nella, in una, si chiama, no filanda, in un, alla Bernasconi insomma che era una, praticamente, uno stabilimento tessile e io sono rimasta lì, non mi ricordo bene, ma insomma sono rimasta lì parecchio. Sono sicura che sono, avevo diciassette anni quando sono entrata in banca ma sono rimasta lì fino almeno un anno, un anno e rotti. E mi ricordo che, quando ho compiuto diciotto anni, andavamo a mangiare in un albergo, prendavamo mi pare 32 Lire di trasferta perciò era una vita meravigliosa, guadagnavo più di mio padre perché insomma prendevo la trasferta. E siamo andati a mangiare e mi ricordo che il mio, il capo ufficio mi ha offerto lo spumante. Quindi noi, effettivamente io stavo bene, stavo bene perché l’unica cosa era il pensiero che i miei fossero a Milano coi bombardamenti. Quando ero dall’avvocato mi ricordo che c’era la, c’era uno, lo chiamavano Pippo, quando io tornavo, bombardava Milano, quando io tornavo alla sera insomma ero spaventata perché Pippo avrebbe agito in modo, io mi ricordo che il Pippo ha agito, non sono certa se era il Pippo ma ha agito un giorno, era il 28 di ottobre, mi pare che sia San Fortunato, ha agito nella mia parrocchia di allora. E mi ricordo che la sera abbiamo sentito il bombardamento, siamo andati a vedere, c’era tutta la porta che fiammeggiava perché era stata colpita. Ecco, poi non mi ricordo bene quando siamo tornati, tornati a Milano. Ad ogni modo è stato un periodo per me che, insomma ero una ragazzina, guadagnavo bene e non è stato un periodo di sofferenza, ecco diciamo. Questo, poi nel ’45, quando c’è stata la liberazione, noi eravamo, sì, io ero ritornata a Milano e mi ricordo quando Mussolini è stato dall’arcivescovo di Milano e, perché praticamente la resa è stata fatta nell’arcivescovado e poi mi ricordo che, quando Mussolini è stato, io non l’ho visto eh, dico la verità perché non sono andata in Piazzale Loreto, invece una mia amica è andata in Piazzale Loreto, ha visto quel, insomma, quello sfacelo, in cui si è verificato la resa del, la resa dei fascisti il giorno della liberazione, insomma, e quando Mussolini è stato attaccato per le gambe eh, in Piazzale Loreto. Ecco, questo è. Io non ho avuto un periodo di sofferenza. Ah, mio padre tra l’altro era capo fabbricato del nostro condominio e la notte quando i primi tempi prima di andare in banca, di notte suonava l’allarme mia mamma non era una che si spaventava e spesso stavamo lì sopra. Noi abitavamo al quarto piano, però quando scendavamo, andavamo in cantina, allora non, era una cantina normale, eh sì insomma, non subivo tante pressioni perché mia mamma non era eh una che ci spaventava. Questi sono i ricordi che ho. Ah poi, quando ero in banca, scendavamo in, nel caveau diciamo e io non ero mai contenta perché avevo il tempo, perché poi mi sono messa a fare privatamente la preparazione alle magistrali superiori, non ero mai contenta perché avevo la possibilità di studiare durante la giornata ecco. Questo, sarà anche una colpa ma insomma io sono riuscita nel 40, poi ho finito nel ’47, nel ’47 mi sono diplomata perché una mia amica che, una mia compagna di scuola delle magistrali, delle magistrali inferiori, era molto intelligente e lei è riuscita a fare l’ordine di studi e mi preparava in matematica dove io ero proprio malandata, matematica e latino. Insomma nel ’47 è vero che ho fatto un periodo dove la guerra era già finita ma insomma sono riuscita a diplomarmi. Questo mi è stato di vantaggio per. Ah, andavo, mi ricordo che andavo da questa migliore amica che mi aveva fatto andare in banca, andavamo alla sera studiare gli ultimi tempi, insomma siamo riusciti aiutandoci a vicenda, siao diventate maestre tutte e due. Però poi abbiamo fatto i concorsi ma naturalmente ai concorsi non abbiamo concluso niente perché io nel concorso ero arrivata a 31 e, insomma, ero, mi mancava uno 0,10 per poter avere la media del sette e quindi non potevo lasciare un posto in banca dove guadagnavo bene per andare a fare la maestra e così sono rimasta in banca 35 anni e, guadagnando bene ma non realizzando i miei sogni perché io sognavo solo di fare la maestra. Quando sono uscita dalla banca, allora mi sono iscritta all’università e ho finito all’università per vent’anni, magnificamente bene. Ecco, questo è la storia della, non ho avuto una vita difficile, devo dire la verità, però insomma, questo è tutto.
SB: Beh allora inizio a parlare io e le faccio delle domande [laughs]. Ecco, allora, io vorrei ripercorrere un attimo insomma dall’inizio, no.
MB: Sì.
SB: Vorrei capire quindi. Quando è scoppiata la guerra, lei aveva quindici anni, giusto?
MB: Sì.
SB: Ehm, e lavorava digià.
MB: Lavoravo digià perché sono, eh sì, nel ’40 mi ha preso l’avvocato.
AB: Sì mah.
MB: Sì, sì.
SB: Lei si ricorda, nel senso, il suo primo ricordo di guerra, appunto, che fosse effettivamente avere visto qualche cosa, oppure aver sentito parlare qualcuno, risale, lei si ricorda se appunto era ancora una studentessa oppure lavorava? Chi gliene ha parlato per primo? Lei come ha scoperto che stava iniziando la guerra?
MB: Eh, si sentiva, lo dicevano per radio. Lo dicevano per radio quando Mussolini ha dichiarato l’entrata in guerra, doveva essere in giugno mi pare. Doveva essere in giugno e si è sentito per radio, per radio s’è sentito. Sì, quello non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo bene ma l’ho sentito per radio.
SB: E dopo di quell’appunto cosa è successo? Qualcuno le ha spiegato, i suoi genitori le hanno spiegato che cosa sarebbe successo?
MB: No, mi ricordo che mio padre, quando avevo sei, sei, sette anni, mi ricordo di questo: ’scrivi bene il nome di Duce, scrivi bene il nome di Duce!’ [emphasises], ecco quello mi ricordo bene. Della guerra non mi ricordo come mi hanno spiegato, non mi ricordo.
SB: Ma qualcuno le ha spiegato qualcosa, come ci si doveva comportare, che cosa sarebbe cambiato?
MB: No.
SB: No.
MB: No, no, non mi ricordo.
AB: Sono cominciate le tessere oltre tutto, le tessere per prendere il mangiare.
MB: Non mi ricordo. Sapevo, insomma, sapevo che cosa sarebbe successo nel senso, ero preoccupata per i bombardamenti appunto, per questo Pippo che, dicevano che avrebbe bombardato Milano e mi ricordo che, quando uscivo la sera dalla, perché l’orario era pesantuccio, quando uscivo dall’avvocato, dalla casa dell’avvocato, insomma avevo paura che durante la notte ci fosse un bombardamento, ecco. Quello. Ma non mi ricordo.
SB: E quindi nel ’40 però lei, insomma quando è iniziata la guerra lei ha continuato a lavorare.
MB: Sì sì sì, ho continuato a lavorare.
SB: E diceva che rimaneva da sola in questo ufficio.
MB: Sì sì, rimanevo da sola, sì sì, rimanevo da sola. Da sola nel periodo estivo perché i datori di lavoro andavano, andavano in vacanza, specialmente in agosto. Lui andava, andava sempre, io ero presente, insomma stavo nello studio ecco, nello studio.
SB: E ha mai pensato appunto alla sua condizione, lì da sola, che cosa avrebbe fatto se fosse successo qualche cosa? Ha mai pensato che potesse avvenire un bombardamento mentre lei era lì?
MB: No, non mi ricordo. Non mi ricordo. Avevo paura a stare lì da sola insomma ma, però non mi ricordo.
SB: E quindi poi, ehm, è andata in banca nel ’43.
MB: Sì.
SB: Prima del ’43 non si ricorda qualcosa di particolare rispetto eh
MB: Prima del ’43 mi ricordo quando hanno bruciato la chiesa e poi...
AB: Le tessere che ti aveva dato la tua...
MB: Ah, la mia, la mia, la moglie del mio ehm avvocato mi dava le tessere annonarie, perché lei andando giù aveva possibilità, andando giù a San Marino e lei non consumava le tessere, per me era manna, le tessere annonarie allora erano considerate sì, mi ricordo che mi dava le tessere annonarie, al suo posto. Non mi ricordo altro. Non mi ricordo altro. Le dico, no, non mi ricordo.
SB: Quindi in quel periodo però viveva ancora con i suoi genitori, in via Confalonieri.
MB: Sì, sì, ma io sono sempre vissuta con i miei genitori. Sì vivevo, io sono sempre vissuta con i miei genitori. E ho anche un fratello e una sorella, che ha sette anni meno di me e mi ricordo che mia sorella era venuta a trovarmi a Cernobbio e mi ricordo che abbiamo fatto il lungolago e io le spiegavo che da Cernobbio, da Cernobbio eravamo preoccupati, eravamo preoccupati,
I: Dell’ora,
MB: Poi
I: Ti ricordi l’ora, quando c’era un’ora differente perché
MB: Ah sì. C’era l’ora
I: In avanti, erano [unclear]
MB: C’era l’ora legale, adesso la storia dell’ora, c’era sempre la differenza di un’ora.
I: Perché la Svizzera aveva un’ora, aveva l’ora legale, noi invece avevamo l’ora solare. E io mi ricordo, e glielo avevo fatto presente a lei, che non, forse non aveva realizzato, e mi aveva fatto fare il tema, ti ricordi?
MB: Ecco, lei aveva fatto un tema su questa storia dell’ora, del cambiamento dell’ora
I: Sul viaggio che e avevo notato la differenza tra, tra noi e loro che erano sulla riva del lago erano nelle vicinanze della, della Svizzera.
MB: Poi Un’altra cosa mi ricordo. Che quando studiavo, che quando studiavo, preparavo alle magistrali superiori, per guadagnare tempo, io, io avevo soldi perché guadagnavo e le davo una lira ogni pagina di appunti che lei mi copiava.
I: Sì.
MB: Sì, ecco, quello me lo ricordo. Perché insomma, io stavo, come soldi stavo bene nel periodo di guerra.
SB: E senta, quindi ehm, poi nel ’43 lei è andata via. No, scusi, nel ’43 è entrata in banca.
MB: No, in banca e poi sono stata sfollata con la banca.
SB: E come, come hanno gestito questa cosa? Come ve l’hanno comunicata?
MB: Ah, ce l’hanno comunicata che saremmo andati, saremmo sfollati con la banca e ci davano le 32 Lire come sulla trasferta. No, noi in quel periodo lì, c’erano le mie colleghe che addirittura a mezzogiorno andavano in barca a fare il pranzo e ce n’era una poi che è diventata la mia capa, che lei andava, no. Per noi in tempo di guerra, sfollati con la banca è stato un periodo che insomma andavamo bene, ecco.
SB: E siccome appunto non, non è certo che tutti sappiano, questa trasferta, ci può spiegare esattamente che cos’era? Come funzionava?
MB: E la trasferte
SB: Voi partivate al mattino?
MB: No, noi
SB: O stavate?
MB: Stavo là.
SB: Quindi avevate un alloggio lì?
MB: Avevamo un alloggio e mi ricordo anche che inizialmente eravamo, eravamo dalle suore a Como, dalle suore di Como e poi ci siamo trasferite, io mi sono trasferita con, sì, con questa mia amica a Cernobbio e siamo andati nella casa di uno chef dell’Hotel, della Villa, dell’Hotel, orpo
I: La Villa d’Este. La Villa d’Este.
MB: della Villa.
I: D’Este.
MB: della Villa D’este. E mi ricordo che avevamo addirittura appese alle pareti le cose egiziane.
I: Gli arazzi.
MB: le cose egiziane, era una cosa, cose egiziane e lì stavamo, andavamo a mangiare nell’Hotel della banca, nella banca, in un albergo segnalatoci dalla banca e a dormire da questi, da questi, da questi che avevano la famiglia e lui era lo chef della Villa D’Este e avevamo tutte le, pareti tappezzate dai, ecco. Quindi io non posso dire che in tempo di guerra sono stata male, stavo, stavo anche bene, però insomma. Poi cosa gliene devo dire. Niente.
SB: Ma quindi senta, questa trasferta che lei chiama così, ehm, fondamentalmente era un sussidio.
MB: Sì era un sussidio che la banca dava perché avevamo lo svantaggio di essere, di essere sfollati. Quindi, siccome il posto in banca era, era un posto bello, diciamo poi era l’ufficio del personale e quindi insomma era un sussidio. Era un sussidio, era la trasferta perché noi non stavamo, mi ricordo che erano 32 euro [sic], era l’America. Per me è stato un periodo non pesante, non pesante, guarda.
SB: E se posso permettermi, siccome appunto per noi tutte queste cose richiamano neanche delle memorie. Noi la lira ancora abbiamo difficoltà. Rispetto a una paga diciamo base, queste 32 lire come pesavano?
MB: Eh, oh, dunque, io prendevo 500, ehm, 500 lire al mese. Anzi quando l’avvocato, quando ho avuto il posto in banca ho detto all’avvocato che mi avrebbero dato 500 lire al mese e lui mi ha detto: ‘gliele do anch’io’ e io ho detto: ‘eh no, però, anche se lei mi da le 500 lire, io preferisco il posto in banca che poi aumenteranno’ e lui invece mi poteva, con sforzo perché son convinta con sforzo dare le 500 lire. Dopo, 500 lire come stipendio e poi 32 lire di trasferta, insomma noi andavamo bene.
SB: E quindi, voi però pagavate un affitto a Cernobbio.
MB: Eh sì, a Cernobbio pagavamo l’affitto e c’è stata una questione perché non ci volevano dare, dare l’appartamento quindi ci siamo trovate in un certo momento che eravamo in difficoltà perché le suore ci avrebbero tenuto ma però a Cernobbio eravamo molto più comode eh perché non avevamo la strada come a Cernobbio. Sì, sì. Insomma. Sa, a diciotto anni avere una libertà così, avere i soldi a disposizione, eh insomma, non era male eh, non era. Son stata una di quelle fortunate perché insomma a diciotto anni. Mi ricordo che ho fatto il compleanno e il mio capo mi ha, mi ha offerto lo champagne, che sarà stato Moscato, così, ma insomma era importante.
SB: E senta, c’erano molti sfollati dove stava lei?
MB: Dove stavo io a...
SB: Si a quando appunto stava dalle suore che poi...
MB: Quando stavo dalle suore, sì, ah tra l’altro dalle suore c’erano, c’era anche le figlie dei funzionari, di qualche funzionario di banca perché erano vicine, più vicine alla famiglia. Sì c’erano, c’era gente sfollata, sì sì. C’era gente sfollata, sì. Sì, c’era gente sfollata ma io ero una di quelle sfollate d’oro perché insomma stavo bene ecco. Non ho avuto problemi, io la guerra nella realtà non l’ho sentita come, non l’ho sentita tanto perché insomma era un periodo d’oro. Abituata a essere figlia, figlia di, mio padre faceva il muratore quindi guadagnava, poi è passato al comune di Milano ma guadagnava poco perché al comune di Milano allora pagava poco. Mi ricordo che, pagava poco, ha preso di più quando è andato in pensione che, quando è andato in pensione prendeva una pensione da non dire, vero?
I: Sì, prendeva di più di quando lavorava.
MG: Eh allora insomma. Eravamo gente povera.
SB: Ma quindi senta lei è stata per un periodo importante lontana dalla famiglia.
MG: Sì.
SB: E questa cosa come, come l’ha vissuta la sua famiglia?
MG: No direi che mi ha fortificato. Mi ha fortificato e il vantaggio ce l’ho adesso. Ce l’ho adesso che sono vecchia che riesco a cavarmela, a cavarmela, malata come sono, riesco a cavarmela e ancora a dirigermi da sola perché sono
I: Indipendente
MG: Ecco. No, a dirigermi da sola. Quindi il vantaggio di quel periodo mi ritorna, mi ritorna adesso ecco perché non so convincermi di dover andare [unclear], per esempio sono allergico alle badanti eh. Diciamo la verità.
SB: Molto indipendente.
MG: Sì, sono, sì, sono
SB: Da sempre.
MG: Ho il senso dell’indipendenza oggi come oggi è sbagliato perché insomma ci si deve convincere che..
SB: Ancora tornando un attimino indietro perché ci sono delle cose che mi hanno interessato molto del suo racconto. Intanto, lei ha detto appunto che lavorava in questo ufficio dell’avvocato e stava lì da sola. Ed era già il ’40. E lei diceva oltrettutto che faceva degli orari che andavano in là la sera.
MG: Eh sì, mi pare che finivamo la sera, finivamo alle sette, mi pare.
SB: Come faceva poi a tornare a casa? C’era il coprifuoco, non c’era il coprifuoco?
MB: No, non, il coprifuoco
I: Dalle nove eh, non alle sei.
MB: Come?
I: Il coprifuoco cominciava alle nove, non, non alle sei.
SB: Quindi non le è mai capitato di trovarsi in giro?
MB: No, non mi è mai capitato di trovarmi in giro in periodo del coprifuoco e già c’era il coprifuoco. No, non avevo problemi, temevo solo il Pippo la sera ma non.
AB: E ma tu sei stata poco con i bombardamenti. Io [emphasises] li ho provati i bombardamenti.
SB: E adesso infatti poi faremo un’altra intervista apposita. E senta di questo Pippo chi gliene aveva parlato?
MB: Ah ma c’era sul giornale, c’era sul giornale Pippo arriva, c’era sul giornale. Tutti lo sapevano che girava il Pippo. Che girava il Pippo e che bombardava. E poi io mi sono, no io, noi ci siamo accorti quando ha colpito la mia chiesa che era la giornata di San Fortunato, che deve essere non so se il 28 di settembre o il 28 di ottobre.
SB: Ci può raccontare di più di questo episodio? Si ricorda qualcosa?
MB: Eh mi ricordo che noi siamo, noi eravamo lontani dalla parrocchia, ma siamo andati in parrocchia e abbiamo visto questo gran spettacolo che sembrava uno spettacolo pirotecnico ma invece era, era stato un bombardamento, che aveva colpito la parrocchia. E poi, no, mi ricordo così, guardi.
SB: Si ricorda dei rumori o dei, degli odori, o di qualcosa appunto che? Nel senso appunto questa chiesa era lontana, no?
MB: Sì.
SB: Però appunto una bomba che cade, però io m’immagino, non so.
MB: Non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo che
SB: Si ricorda se ha sentito la sirena?
MB: Mi ricordo della, della sorpresa. Ecco, mi ricordo quando suonava la sirena, quando suonava la sirena perché erano previsti i bombardamenti. Quello della sirena sì, mi ricordo. E che, quando suonava di sera, ci trovavamo nella condizione di andare, di andare giù in cantina. Eh ma mia mamma non era una paurosa e perdere la notte, certe volte non andavamo neanche. Invece mio padre...
AB: Io [emphasises] non andavo. Tu, tu andavi, scappavi con mio papà e con il Peppino.
MB: Invece mio padre era un pauroso, era il capofabbricato ma era un pauroso, mio padre. Mia madre invece no.
AB: Era il primo che andava
SB: E questo scantinato, in questo scantinato, era predisposto per?
MB: Erano le cantine di adesso, no
AB: No.
MB: No, erano le cantine di adesso, le cantine nostre, erano cantine nostre, c’erano anche le panche mi pare che
AB: Avevano messo delle panche, ma scorrazzavano i topi.
MB: Avevano messo le panche ma erano le cantine nostre, che poi abbiamo utilizzato come cantine, perché si scendeva così, mi ricordo che scendevamo così. Non mi ricordo altro.
SB: E questo momento che eravate nelle cantine durava tanto, durava poco?
MB: Eh no, durava molto
AB: Durava un tre ore, eh sì.
MB: Certe volte anche un due, tre ore, che poi suonava la sirena, che era finito.
AB: Che finiva.
SB: Si ricorda cosa facevate mentre aspettavate che risuonasse la sirena?
MB: Quando ero nella cantina della banca, mi ricordo che facevo letteratura latina [laughs], quello me lo ricordo. Così non perdevo tempo poi. Mentre invece lì non, sì eravamo tutti amici, insomma, eravamo ventenni e, sì, parlavamo, parlavamo, dispiaciute di aver perso una parte della notte. E poi, ognuno aveva da lavorare. Ecco.
SB: E vi intrattenevate? Vi è mai capitato di intrattenervi con delle canzoni o con dei giochi o con?
MB: No, no.
AB: Si chiacchierava e basta e si sonnecchiava.
MB: No, no, chiacchierare e sonnecchiare, e no no, perché eravamo in una zona di gente operaia che insomma, perdere la notte poi spostava, eh, ti spostava di fatica. Sì, sì, non, non eravamo in case, in case raffinate. È che eravamo già fortunati che avevamo, ah, noi avevamo il gabinetto fuori. No no, noi avevamo il gabinetto dentro, ma la nostra è una casa di ringhiera e tutti i nostri vicini erano tre o quattro appartamenti che avevano il gabinetto in comune, no? Non avevano il gabinetto in comune?
AB: Non avevano il gabinetto in comune quelli della ringhiera.
MB: Noi invece eravamo dei privilegiati perché avevamo il gabinetto in casa. Che poi, mio padre faceva il muratore e c’aveva messo la doccia ne, c’aveva messo la doccia.
AB: C’aveva messo la doccia, sì.
MB: Quindi. Sì, io mi ricordo che ci lavavamo nel bagnino, no,
AB: Sì, [laughs], di zinco.
MB: Non avevamo bagno, era un bagnino di zinco e ci lavavamo così.
SB: Un’ultima domanda.
MB: Sì.
SB: Lei ha detto che suo papà era capofabbricato.
MB: Capofabbricato perché allora a ogni, a ogni stabile stabilivano un capofabbricato che voleva dire, quando c’era d’andare in cantina, era un po’ responsabile della casa.
SB: Quindi era un, diciamo un ruolo che era venuto fuori...
MB: Per la storia della guerra. Sì, capofabbricati.
AB: Perché mio padre era del ’92 dell’Ottocento e nel ’40 aveva 48 anni.
MB: L’avevano richiamato.
AB: Doveva essere richiamato e siccome aveva tre figli, insomma, richiamato sarebbe stata proprio la fine della famiglia. Allora gli avevano fatto la proposta, capofabbricato doveva impegnarsi in un certo senso, accompagnare giù la gente anziana, perché noi stavamo, c’erano quattro, cinque piani, cinque piani la nostra casa, accompagnare giù,
MB: Fare a piedi.
AB: Sì, sì, fare le scale, e guardare, ordinare la coda della gente che entrava in cantina. Ma mio padre era più pauroso dei [laughs], dei cosi e scappava con la valigia che avevamo, una valigia con dentro i tesori, cioè l’oro, l’oro insomma per modo di dire, una stoffa, c’era un panno di stoffa, neh, e se si andava giù mi padre scappava via con la sua valigia e ci piantava lì noi.
SB: Questi però sono i suoi ricordi [laughs]
AB: Questi sono i miei ricordi.
SB: Adesso io.
AB: Vede che mia sorella non si ricorda bene.
SB: No certo, no certo. Per questo vogliamo dedicarci anche a lei.
AB: Mi spiace che interrompo ma siccome io ho questi ricordi e i miei sono più verdi dei suoi.
SB: No, no, no, è importante, certo. Solo che adesso vogliamo approfondire ma dobbiamo concludere questa intervista qui e...
AB: Sì, sì, no, no, giusto. Lei ha i ricordi.
SB: Certo.
AB: Ricordi di persone che a Milano non c’è stata tanto. Perché in tempo di guerra lei era via, era sfollata.
SB: E senta, allora io avrei un sacco di domande [laughs], avrei molte domande.
MB: Eh, dica, dica.
SB: Vado [laughs]?
MB: Sì, sì, vada, vada.
SB: Allora intanto volevo chiederle ancora sul Pippo. Chi era? Cos’era?
MB: Era [unclear]
AB: Dicevano che era italiano.
SB: Aspetti, se no, se no ci mischiamo purtroppo [laughs].
MB: Era uno che guidava l’aereo, era un, uno che guidava l’aereo e che bombardava.
SB: Quindi era una persona?
MB: Sì, sì, senz’altro era una persona. Lo chiamavano Pippo.
SB: E senta, e si ricorda di chi, dicevano, di quale nazione facesse parte? Se avesse uno schieramento, se? Perché faceva questa cosa?
MB: No, non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo.
SB: Non c’erano, non c’erano spiegazioni riguardo a questo?
MB: No, non. Mi ricordo, sta notte ze la notte del Pippo ma non mi ricordo.
SB: Ma era una frase che dicevano prima, perché si sapeva già che sarebbe passato a bombardare o?
MB: Sì, sì, dicevano prima. Quando venivo a casa dal lavoro, dall’ufficio dell’avvocato, si diceva: ’vedrai che stasera arriva il Pippo’.
SB: Ah sì?
MB: Eh, Dicevano così. Facevo perdere le notti, ma non mi ricordo se, se lo credevano, lo ritenevano italiano o lo ritenevano inglese, non mi ricordo.
SB: Ho capito. E senta, invece il rifugio del caveau, che diceva?
MB: Ah del caveau. Era il caveau della banca quindi si stava abbastanza bene. Mi ricordo che stavamo seduti. Io avevo questa mia collega che faceva, aveva, era già maestra lei. Così, perché eravamo state assunte, erano state assunte in sostituzione dei richiamati. Io sono stata assunta in sostituzione dei richiamati e poteva darsi che finita la guerra ci mandassero via e questo era il nostro, eh. E invece ci hanno trattenuto, ci hanno trattenuto tutte e nel ’47 la banca ha cominciato ad assumere anche i nuovi o quelli che ritornavano, perché mi pare che i richiamati avevano la possibilità di tenere il posto. Erano richiamati ma quando avrebbero ripreso, avrebbero avuto il posto. E noi eravamo, noi eravamo in sostituzione dei richiamati, per quello che si entrava con una facilità abbastanza. Tra le mie colleghe ce n’erano poche che erano diplomate. Ragioniere no, erano quasi tutte maestre, avevano compiuto i diciotto anni e c’erano tutte ragazze che avevano finito il professionale. Allora c’era professionale, commerciale e magistrale.
SB: E senta, questo caveau, era allestito per ospitare, diciamo, durante i bombardamenti? Si ricorda?
MB: Ma io so, so che c’erano delle panche.
SB: C’erano delle panche.
MB: C’erano delle panche. Non si stava in piedi. Sì, sì, si stava nelle panche. E noi, io le dico personalmente, sarà stato sbagliato ma mi pareva la manna perché avevo la possibilità di preparare, di preparare qualche cosa di, di esame, insomma. Perché io ho cominciato poi nel ‘47 ad andare a lezione dalla mia compagna di scuola, la quale mi ha preparato in matematica e in latino, preparava.
SB: E senta, si ricorda, sempre su questo caveau, qualcuno vi avrà detto, ‘quando suona l’allarme si va di qua’. Si ricorda se qualcuno gliel’ha mai detto?
MB: Non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo.
SB: OK. Ma eravate tante persone o? Cioè questo caveau era, perché m’immagino era un posto solo per tutti gli impiegati.
MB: Ah no, credo che fosse la banca dove adesso tengono i tesori, dove tengono le cassette di sicurezza, credo che fosse così. Io mi ricordo che ero seduta, avevo il posto, ero seduta e la banca appunto ci lasciava andare perché era suo dovere quando suonava l’allarme.
SB: Va bene. Io magari un’ultima domanda riguardo a quando è finita la guerra. Dopo la guerra, ha mai ripensato, le è mai capitato di ripensare, in particolare ai bombardamenti, ehm?
MB: No.
SB: O magari a chi appunto bombardava?
MB: Perché per me è stato un periodo in cui avevo il benessere economico. Non dico che non ero più povera ma insomma avevo uno stipendio, stipendio di bancari anche allora contava eh. E poi insomma nel ’47 io avevo 22, 25, 35, 40, io avevo 30 anni e insomma avevo il mio posto, avevo, guadagnavo. Guadagnavo insomma, ero tra i lavoratori, allora erano i migliori, erano i miglior pagati. Facevamo gli scioperi, ma eravamo i migliori sulla piazza.
SB: Quindi insomma, al bombardamento lei non associa ricordi o sentimenti di qualche tipo.
MB: No, no. Non sono stata. Ah ecco, c’era stato una mia collega che era stata sotto i bombardamenti. Quella ne aveva risentito sotto i bombardamenti militari di Via Disciplini, l’hanno trovata, ecco, quella era stata colpita, sì. C’era gente che aveva subito i bombardamenti ed era rimasta incastrata in cantina. Ecco, quelli ne avevano risentiti ma io no, io non ho risentito, psicologicamente non ho risentito. Ecco.
SB: Va bene, allora, io la ringrazio.
MB: Niente. Adesso deve dire qualcosa lei, no?
SB: No, no, no. Eravamo io e lei. La ringrazio e.
MB. Niente.
SB: A posto.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marialuigia Buffadossi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Marialuigia Buffadossi remembers her wartime life in the Lombardy region. Born in a low-class neighbourhood with poor-quality housing, she first worked as shorthand clerk for a solicitor, and then was employed by a major bank. Remembers her employer’s wife, who had San Marino citizenship and was, therefore, able to obtain un-rationed supplies. Describes her evacuee life in Cernobbio, stressing her handsome salary and enjoyable social life in various resorts on the shores of Lake Como. Remembers how she was troubled by not knowing the fate of her relatives still in Milan. Describes taking shelter inside the bank vault, where she passed the time studying for a teaching qualification. Recalls Pippo and maintains that it was the name of the pilot. Describes the bombing of a church and the subsequent fire. Mentions different attitudes toward bombing: her father, a warden, was fearful and timid; her mother took a resolute and fearless approach, to the point of avoiding the shelter in the basement. Affirms that having been an evacuee greatly increased her resilience, and also strengthen her desire to lead an independent life.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sara Buda
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:52:56 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ABuffadossiM170528
PBuffadossiM1701
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Cernobbio
Italy--Milan
Italy
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-08
civil defence
evacuation
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/545/Memoro 16313.1.mp3
8a143d81e67e6615bf6675a59448a579
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AA: La guerra, qua a Cagliari?
PR: E’ scoppiata la guerra, io ero a Cagliari. Ero al commando areonautica la Sardegna, però andavo in bicicletta e a montare a cavallo. Il 16 febbraio c’è stato il primo bombardamento a Cagliari e noi stavamo in casa a vedere gli aerei che da casa mia si vedeva il Belvedere gli aerei che bombardavano l’aeroporto di [part missing in the original file] 16 febbraio fanno il primo bombardamento sulla città. C’è qualche morto, sedici morti mi pare a Cagliari e allora cominciamo a preoccuparci, ho detto bisogna portare. il 26 febbraio io ero all’ippodromo. Torno, hanno bombardato la mia casa quindi, da piazza che vedevo sempre la mia casa che era…
AA: La sua casa era, dove?
PR: In Piazza, Corso Svetonio.
AA: Nel Corso?
PR: A tre piani, l’aveva costruita mio padre per noi e non vedo la casa che si vedeva e c’era mia madre. Però una casa ben costruita in cemento armato, aveva il primo, il secondo piano erano stati colpiti da una bomba e la bomba ha sfondato l’ultimo piano, il secondo e si è fermato solo in un magazzino. Noi avevamo magazzino e sottomagazzino e mia madre con una scala interna tipo deposito la sera scendeva la sera con le donne servizio e un altro mio cugino eccetera c’era. Poi hanno visto da fuori che dice veniamo a salvarla mia madre si era accorta che la casa fosse crollata perché tornando indietro per le scale spingeva la porta e c’eran tutte le macerie
AA: Eh certo, lei non riusciva ad aprire.
PR: Comunque lì il 26 febbraio noi abbiamo detto ‘mamma, parti’, non voleva partire, l’abbiamo fatta partire e noi coi materassi ci siamo spostati in Viale Merello che era la casa di mia sorella e la notte abbiamo dormito là perché la nostra casa
AA: Quindi voi non siete andati, non siete sfollati, siete rimasti in città.
PR: Sì, mia madre è partita.
AA: Solo sua madre.
PR: Io ero con l’aeronautica quindi dovevo stare a Cagliari. Mia sorella era a Oristano. Mia cognata era uscito [unclear] mercato, mio fratello era con il reggimento di cavalleria a Oristano, l’altro mio fratello Aldo era medico all’ospedale militare quindi non.
AA: Ognuno aveva i suoi ruoli quindi.
PR: Il 28 febbraio io ero al comando aeronautica. Erano arrivati degli aerei anche il giorno prima. Erano morti dei miei collaboratori del corpo aereo tedesco che io avevo fatto alloggiare in Via XX Settembre quindi il 28 io sono andato a vedere per recuperare queste salme con una macchina dell’aeronautica. Però era già pericolo ho detto all’autista vediamo, vedere cosa è successo i bombardamenti in Via Roma. Sono arrivato in Via Roma, al giardino pubblico ho visto è[unclear] l’ingegner Sana che poi è morto subito dopo con la famiglia. Ha detto ‘oh, Paolo, guarda ci complimentiamo con te, abbiamo visto la tua casa distrutta, vi siete salvati’ poi ho sentito gli aerei non avevano funzionato le sirene d’allarme gli aerei sono dentro su di noi. I nostri aerei sono andati a bombardare in Africa quindi questa è una reazione. C’erano due ragazze che non conoscevo, le ho prese, con Pupo Sana è andato da una parte, io ho preso queste due ragazze e le ho spinte sotto le colonne del municipio. Il bombardamento, [makes a booming sounds] Le bombe subito.
AA: Quindi voi andavate proprio in mezzo.
RP: In mezzo, son crollate le bombe, son morti tutti, cinquemila persone. Mi pare alla stazione che tutti i treni erano affollati. E Sana stava partendo con la sorella, la moglie pare sia impazzita e io poi, noi eravamo sotto le colonne del municipio
AA: Con queste due ragazze.
PR: Io con le due ragazze mi son messo l’impermeabile in testa per coprirci dai calcinacci. Era il 28 febbraio era, del 1943. Eravamo nelle colonne del municipio che rintronavano, queste colonne. Io ero proprio nell’ [unclear] che andava [unclear] Poi c’era uno della, un pupar [?] della contraerea [part missing in the original file] chiamati che facevano servizio ha detto c’è una bomba inesplosa noi ci siamo spostati sotto
AA: Ah, eravate proprio vicino a questa bomba.
PR: Dal municipio al [unclear] ed è crollato [unclear] una bomba sul moderno, e noi eravamo vicino e allora c’era un mio collega d’areonautica [part missing in the original file] il cognato di Pupo Sana e s’era rotto un’aorta femorale poverino e c’ha aiutati noi come facciamo ha detto portatemi salvatemi allora io ero con una mia nipote avevo [part missing in the original file] ho detto mettiamo là abbiamo costruito una barella fatta di cemento e macerie e l’abbiamo messo su ho detto facciamo quest’atto, se restiamo qua ci ammazzano c’era già la terza ondata passavano così gli aerei così son passati per distruggere la città completamente. Gli americani prima gli inglesi bombardavano gli americani invece assassini veramente hanno preso la città da questa parte. La terza ondata noi siamo andati ho detto adesso [unclear] per fortuna non c’è stato abbiam passato Via Sassari tutta piena di macerie non si poteva allora dietro Via Maddalena siam passati Via Maddalena per andare all’ospedale militare e lì vedo mio fratello buttato per terra che era andato a vedere, non aveva trovato rifugio per cercare la casa dell’ufficiale medico, era andato a cercare, aveva il suo studio la casa che era stata dietro per cercare di recuperare qualcosa, era convinto che ci fosse un mio cugino ferito allora si è messo a correre io neanche l’ho visto dietro la macchina noi l’abbiamo lasciato all’ospedale. Diaz si chiamava questo tenente e siamo andati perché poi da là l’hanno spedito all’ospedale marino ed è morto [unclear] quindi noi io conobbi questo mio cugino che era con me nell’aereonautica ci siamo siamo andati di corsa fino alle grotte di Viale Merello [part missing in the original file] il commando militare se l’era squagliato tutti da Cagliari, un deserto, un disastro, una cosa paurosa, uno
AA: Ma le due ragazze si erano salvate poi? Le aveva salvate quelle due ragazze?
PR: Le ragazze le avrei volute rivedere poi non ci ho pensato
AA: [unclear]
PR: Non so chi siano.
AA: Non sa. Chissà che magari qualcuno.
PR: Avrei voluto.
AA: Adesso guardando la sua intervista.
PR: Per vedere chi lo sà, ho detto queste due ragazze.
AA: Perché una volta che era passato il bombardamento poi loro saranno andate via
PR: Le ho portate io così le ho spinte ho detto le ho portate sotto queste colonne. Non le ho viste.
AA: Non si ricorda.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Paolo Racugno
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Paolo Racugno (b. 1917), recollects the February 1943 Cagliari bombing. Mentions scenes of destruction with wounded civilians and describes how he used his coat to protect two girls from falling debris.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:08:13 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#16313
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Regia Aereonautica
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Mediterranean Sea
Italy--Cagliari
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
civil defence
home front