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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/74/736/ABisioG-MascherpaT170308.1.mp3
337d6cd7833eb21a9f2125039c266f3c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bisio, Gabriella and Mascherpa, Teresa
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
G Bisio and T Mascherpa
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of a dual oral history interview with Gabriella Bisio and and Teresa Mascherpa who recollect their wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mascherpa, T; Bisio, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare la signora Gabriella Bisio e la signora Teresa Mascherpa. Siamo a Pavia, è l’8 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. È inoltre presente all’intervista il signor Maggi. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla, [background noise] l’Università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora Gabriella, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza del periodo di guerra, insomma?
GB: Le racconto che all’età di sette, otto anni, nove, quelle che l’è, partivo da sola dalla casa perché ero terrorizzata dai bombardamenti e andavo in una cascina nei dintorni all’Acquanegra.
AM: Sì, infatti.
GB: la cascina dei grandi, partivo il mattino, tornavo la sera. Nessun sbuieva no in ca’ mia perché non si andava da nessuna parte. Niente, la fame perché ho mangiato anche il latte con le patate perché non c’era il pane, la fila per poter avere magari il pacchettino di sale perché e poi tutto quello che si vedeva perché ad esempio mio papà lavorava in una cartiera Burgo, non ha mai voluto prendere la tessera.
AM: Del fascio.
GB: dei fascisti così e combinazione vuole, doveva essere portato via, dove li portavano a. Il giorno che doveva essere portato via è stato il giorno che è finito tutto il trambusto della guerra. Spariti anche di lì. Poi mi ricordo che c’erano i tedeschi nel piazzale del borgo, Piazzale Ghinaglia e si stavano arrendendo perché oramai erano e uno della compagnia tedesca si è portato avanti con le mani alzate, è stato ucciso dai compagni dietro. Tutti ricordi non belli. Poi, non lo so, la vita [unclear] ah, non è finita lì. Ehm, cos’erano i fascisti, tedeschi, chi l’è cl’è can mis tut al rob li dentar?
TM: Quello lì era un momento.
GB: Delle guerre.
TM: Alla fine guerre quando si ritiravano i tedeschi. La mitragliatrice [unclear].
GB: Giù c’è una paninoteca, qui, qui, sempre stato e han portato tutti.
TM: Mitragliatrici qui davanti all’entrata perché passavano da là per la statale.
GB: Sì, e han messo tutti armi e bagaj per sparare se arrivavano i.
TM: Davanti a una casa.
GB: il mio suocero insomma si è fatto risenti ma niente fare, spaventi anche li. Voi dov’è che andavate a prendere il pane?
TM: A Robecco.
GB: Robecco.
TM: C’era il pane, c’era.
GB: Perché loro.
TM: In bicicletta.
GB: Erano in una situazione diversa un po’ dalla mia. [unclear] Tra le disgrazie, ma varda quas chi, ciapa da li, scapa da là. Ciumbia abbiam fatto la fame.
AM: Invece Zina cioè andava.
TM: No num ndavam [unclear].
AM: No andava da Robecco in bicicletta.
TM: In bicicletta. Per prendere il pane per una settimana. I micconi. Il pane non c’era.
GB: Poi ha nascosto anche gente, gh’era chi nascost Muzzo, tla cunüsat, tlè conosü.
AM: Nascondevano anche gente come, come quelli che la dicevano che andavano nella cascina e là loro si nascondevano.
I: [unclear]
AM: Perché allora non c’erano tutte queste case.
TM: No, no.
AM: Allora c’erano, erano in fondo al borgo c’erano.
GB: Al tempo dei partigiani.
AM: Ma quand i bumbardavan vialtar scapavat o no?
GB: [unclear] Antonio, io no. Io ero sempre in quella cascina lì. Ah no, ti dirò un’altra cosa. Che poi avevamo preso l’abitudine, quando suonava l’allarme, si andava in quel rifugio che c’è, prendeva giù dall’Acquanegra. Quel rifugio lì. Quel giorno là c’era l’esumazione di qualche parente nostro. E allora con mia mamma, Gigi e Giovanni siamo andati al cimitero. Han bombardato, proprio preso quel punto.
AM: Quella volta, che ti diceva Piero quando hanno preso la tomba che ha fatto 90 morti.
TM: Tomba [unclear]
GB: Han proprio preso quel punto lì.
TM: I bombardamenti più brutti sono stati per il ponte vecchio perché.
GB: Che sbagliavano.
TM: Il ponte della ferrovia [unclear] Due volte sono andati giù. Ma questi qui tutte le volte
AM: Sì, in più quello che diceva.
TM: E han bombardato [unclear].
GB: Sbagliavano le posizioni. E anche quella volta lì, allora c’era già la passerella. Gh’era giamò un quaicos ca’ quadreva no. Fatto sta che ricordo ancora la scena. Perché naturalmente mio papà era al lavoro. Sentendo tutto e sapendo, memore che magari si andava lì, guarda. Noi tornavamo.
TM: Quel bombardamento lì l’ha centrà e l’è ndai giù anca mes Burg.
GB: Noi tornavamo dal cimitero, ci siamo visti sul ponte, lui tornava dal borgo. Non so dirti la scena quando ci ha visti perché il pensiero da ved pü una famiglia, vedasla davanti Tu ti ricordi che.
FA: Quindi si ricorda quando hanno bombardato?
GB: Eh questo no. Quand’è che l’è stat fiöi?
TM: Hanno bombardato.
AM: No le date, cioè un mese.
GB: Sì, sì, sì. No, no, no, no. Eh, noi eravamo dalla parte opposta del cimitero.
AM: Eran dall’altra parte del Ticino.
GB: Lì è stato un disastro, che roba. Vedere portavano via i morti, i feriti, la maniera ch’ieran, con la barelle di legno. Bisognava. Scene strazianti addirittura. No, no, è stato.
AM: E vialtar quand i bumbardevan, vialtar, erano qua a duecento metri da [unclear].
GB: Sì, sì, sì.
TM: [unclear ]A guardà in alt par ved, perché per, qui c’erano i, si fermavano i pullman che con l’allarme si sono fermati qui. I bombardamenti sono andati tutti nel rifugio lì. E sono rimasti sotto.
GB: E sono rimasti sotto tutti.
AM: Comunque tu pensa che a distanza di tempo, adesso te lo dico, c’era lì della Carminuti no, che han trovato un cadavere che praticamente era stato sbalzato in aria, era caduto sopra il tetto, aveva sfondato il tetto e non se n’era accorto nessuno, dalla puzza han rinvenuto il cadavere.
GB: Un po’ dappertutto anche quei che era stai bumbardà ] non c’erano più integri, erano tutti
AM: A pezzi.
GB: Immagini. Che robe ch’è stat li.
FA: Quindi hanno bombardato un rifugio vicino al ponte?
AM: No, qua, qua avanti.
GB: A metà abbondante.
AM: Quattro, trecento metri indietro da qua, che era distante dal ponte perché avevano sbagliato.
FA: Perché avevano sbagliato, sì.
GB: A metà borgata.
TB: Siccome forse era, c’era una curva li, fasivan fatiga.
AM: Non tenevano conto del Ticino.
TM: Facevano fatica a centrarlo il ponte vecchio e l’hanno bombardato due o tre volte.
GB: E poi c’era Pippo. C’era Pippo che rompeva le scatole tutte le notti. Non so no un mo’ ades, qual’era la sua funzione, so no un mo’ ades. Tutte le notti girava.
TM: Però un paio di volte ha bombardato la cascina Lignazza li, perché ieran andai int i camp , le bombe.
AM: Lui se vedeva magari qualche movimento, qualche cosa così, lasciava una bomba.
GB: L’unica cosa è che quando si andava fuori per non essere proprio sotto le case, andavamo quei prati li sempre giù dl’Aquanegra e mia mamma, e mia mamma si portava dietro il paiolo per fare la polenta. Oh Madonna, da mettere in testa, così se magari succedeva che bombardavano, mitragliavano, almeno la testa era salva. Di quelle cose che adesso ci ride magari a raccontarle ma allora no.
FA: Quindi c’era grande, c’era forte paura insomma.
TM: Altrochè.
GB: Forte paura, altroché. Forte paura e poi c’era il terrore di tutto. Perché anche per i giovani. Perché poi io avevo due zii, fratelli di mio papà, che erano fascisti fascistoni [emphasis] proprio. Gente che facevano del bene eh. Infatti quando è finita la guerra, nessuno li ha insultati, nessuno, Perché allora loro vivevano dentro la caserma, sul viale, e davano da mangiare a tutti quelli che andavano a cercarlo. Poi avevo uno zio, fratello di mia mamma, contro completamente, Angelo. E quindi avevamo anche un po’ di.
AM: Ma Tunon l’era, Tunon.
GB: Eh.
AM: L’era parente de tu ziu.
GB: Tunon chi l’è? [unclear].
AM: Al papà ad.
GB: Manuela?
AM: No. Bosi.
GB: Quel Bosi l’era me ziu.
AM: Quel che lui l’è partì, lui è partito, era appena sposato.
GB: Sì.
AM: E sua moglie era incinta, l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, no. Poi è andato a finire in Egitto, prigioniero in Egitto, è tornato nel ’46, che suo figlio quanti anni che aveva? Aveva sei o sette anni. Non aveva mai visto suo papà no?.
GB: No, ah, l’è, ti te dre parlà del Mino?
AM: Del Mino, sì.
GB: Ah, Tunon disevi Angelo [unclear]?
AM: No, perché al ciamevan Tunon so papà.
Gb: No è il papà del Mino.
AM: Sì, il papà del Mino se ciama.
GB: È suo sio Piero.
AM: Suo sio Piero.
GB: Tornato che era più lui, perché sentire quello che racconntava, lo mettevano su una scala ripide e po’ ag devan un punton e al la fevan borlà giù , lo faseva andar giù. Delle cose.
AM: Gli inglesi l’avevan catturato perché lui era partito addirittura prima della guerra.
GB: Sì, sì.
AM: Per la guerra d’Albania, no.
Gb: Sì, sì, è stato in Albania.
AM: E l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania. L’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, lui non è più, era il ’46, cioè non il, era il ’38, ’39, robe del genere. Lui non è più tornato, s’era perso, quando è partito era, s’era sposato da poco, no.
GB: Sì. Era partito che non era più lui. Lü giamò al la ciamevan Tunon.
AM: [unclear], perché sì.
GB. Povero.
GB: Ritorno, e poi mi ricordo un’altra scena che non so se può essere importante o no. Che un giorno hanno schierato Angelo, non ricordo il nome degli altri tre, davanti alla caserma dei carabinieri. E i fascisti dall’altra parte pronti ad ucciderli. E varda s’eri una fiületina propi giuina ca vadivi tut chi rob li. Poi non so come mai le cose son cambiate e insomma si son salvati.
FA: D’accordo.
AM: Che poi qua, diseva Piero, che chi g’era un pustament ad contraerea giù all’Acquanegra.
GB: Si altroché.
TM: Sì.
GB: Ma n’era dappertutto, Antonio. Dappertutto n’era.
AM: E sparavano ogni tant quai li?
GB: Si sentiva il botto dappertutto. Quand han trai giù, che han bombardà il ponte.
TM: Si qual li l’è stat, bombardamenti più... spaventoso.
AM: Però non sono mai sfollati perché abitavano già in fondo il borgo. Cioè scappavano nelle campagne e nelle cascine basta [unclear].
GB: Fuori che almeno le case non cadevano in testa, ecco.
FA: Eravate un po’ più lontani insomma.
GB: Ma si pensava a un fatto del genere invece. Eh lì c’è gente che han perso figli e non figli, in particolare in quel rifugio lì. Era l’unic ca’ gh’era chi in Burg in borgo.
AM: Grosso.
TM: Chi I pensavan ac l’era al püsè sicur.
Fa: E lei invece era da questa parte di qua del borgo, quando?
TM: Anche quello lì da questa parte ma è più in là, più vicino al ponte diciamo.
AM: Sì, no, le Gina quand i bumbardevan l’era da chi.
GB: Non si è mai mossa [laughs].
TM: No, ma anca li me cas fa ndevi in tla stra da la giu li nei campi.
FA: E l’ha visto? Che cosa si ricorda di quelle giornate, di quella giornata lì insomma?
GB: Eh, un trambusto che non finiva più.
TM: Mah, forse niente. Una visione che non si può descrivere.
GB: No, non si può descrivere.
TM: Perché non riesci ad abbassare la testa, guardat sempar in su , con la testa in giù guardi anca li [unclear].
GB: Vabbè che c’è gente che ha perso proprio tutta la famiglia, eh.
AM: Sì, ma le la diseva, vialtar guardevav I bomb ca’ nieva giù? .
GB: [unclear] Si s’eram propi chi, at ia vedevat a grapul chi nievan giù, proprio che scendevano [mimics sound].
TM: Mia mamma la scappava magari in casa. La gneva no föra la steva in ca’ e mi s’eri li a guardà, ne mur ne nient e specie quas chi il Ponte dell’Impero è andato giù.
AM: Ma quel che ha bombardà la tombina, vialtar iv vust la nivula, av ricurdè subit o no?
GB: Io non le ho viste perché non ero in borgo.
TM: No guardevi propi püsè in la dal pont proprio che sei in là adesso.
AM: Quindi anche loro non se ne sono resi conto subito.
[background noise]
GB: Aveva dei lati comici magari anche.
FA: Quindi insomma una grande confusione. Non si riesce a descrivere.
TM: A descrivere non riesco.
GB: No. Io l’unica cosa che mi ricordo è che tornando dal cimitero tutte sti barelle, sul coso che li portavano non si sa dove, morti, non morti.
FA: Quindi è arrivata insomma dopo che era successo, ecco.
AM: E anche lei che era qua non si è resa conto subito, vedeva venire giù le bombe.
TM: Polvere, fumo, perché po anca frequenti le bombe, una da dre a l’altra.
Gb: Un grappolo, un altro grappolo, venivan giù, me delle.
TM: Più brutto è stato questo qui, il ponte vecchio. L’altro.
GB: Ma hanno sbagliato un paio di volte a prenderlo.
TM: Oh, quas chi si.
GB: Eh! Il ponte dell’impero era più vivo, era più.
TM: Ponte delle ferrovie, il primo bombardamento.
AM: È andato giù.
TM: Quello dell’impero, due volte son venuti per.
GB: Ma chi più sè?
TM: E chi ien gni tre o quattre volte. L’ultima volta, un disastro.
GB: Disastro generale.
TM: Perché forse gh’evam un età che capivam un po’.
AM: Si capiva propi no un mo’ ben.
TM: In che manera l’era.
Gb: Ti dico che mi a vundes ann l’era finì la guerra. Unidici anni.
GB: Anche se po’ ghe gent che as ie fai i danè.
AM: [unclear]
GB: Eh?
AM: Lo diseva anche Piero [laughs].
GB: Poi c’è gente che.
TM: Quando è finita la guerra han fat i Carneval.
GB: Sì.
TM: Andà in gir con una gabbia con dentar i.
GB: La storia [clears throat] a quan ievan impost da met, i due palloni in alto.
TM: Qual li l’è prima l’è il Duce, quando l’è passà il Duce, ha fatto l’inaugurazione dela Lupa .
GB: Ah d’la casa dla Lupa . E hanno imposto a mio suocero di abbellire un po’ la casa perché passava di qua. E l’abbellimento l’è stato. Ma.
TM: C’era, era metà che sembrava un gabinetto, un servizio. Allora l’hanno dovuto allungarlo, fare una specie di terrazzo con i palloncini di sopra perché passava il Duce . Ma è prima della guerra. [pause]
GB: Avete voi qualche domanda da fare? Dai, iutes.
FA: Vabbe’ quindi allora quello è stato il primo bombardamento. Invece dei bombardamenti che sono venuti dopo? Ne avete visto qualcuno?
AM: No. Noi.
GB: Quello lì.
AM: Ma loro hanno visto quelli del ponte, scappavano poi dopo.
TM: Sì, sì, del ponte là e basta. Am ricordi nanca se ien gnu a bumbardà.
AM: No, ma quelli ien quei del ponte, po g’era Pippo, gli altri.
TM: Gh’era Pippo cl’era sempar in gir.
GB: All’inisi dal Burg a bas l’è ndai giù anca lü.
AM: Sì, sì, sì, là del teatro Bordoni, la cooperativa.
GB: Andà giù tut.
AM: Eh ma il burg, fino a quasi alla chiesa l’èra andà giù tutti, Indè ca gh’era Gavassi al gh’eva al deposit di strass che è bruciato, è andato a bruciare avanti non so per quanti giorni perché lì c’era il deposito degli stracci, c’era uno che faceva proprio la raccolta degli stracci.
GB: Inde ca gl’aviva?
AM: Li atacà ai scol
TM: Ma li l’è indè ca stava , ma lu l’era chi da Sfross.
GB: Dopu atacà.
TM: chi nde gh’era l’edicula.
Gb: Ma lè ndai subit li?
AM: No li gh’è ndai dopu, Sì perché lu andava lì dove se i scole.
TM: Ah li ghe ndai dopu la guera?
AM: I la che stava lu con la ca’ Che lì l’è andai avanti a brusa non so per quanto tempo perché alcune bombe, cioè, non è che le bombe han colpito la chiesa, sono arrivate vicino alla chiesa, perché era caduto anche un pezzo di navata della chiesa.
TM: E sempre nel bombardamento per il ponte.
AM: Sempre per il ponte. C’era, sempre una di quelle volte che hanno sbagliato a bombardare perché non hanno sbagliato, cioè hanno sbagliato diverse volte. Cioè, il massimo è stato quando hanno sbagliato che hanno preso la Tombina che proprio erano fuori però altre volte, sempre per il discorso della curva, loro sbagliavano e beccavano il borgo, le case del borgo. Una volta hanno beccato anche le case appena fuori dal ponte città vecchia. Han beccato anche lì, dove adesso c’è la cremeria e così, no. Una volta hanno sbagliato perché probabilmente sono stati più di là e hanno buttato giù le case anche di là, dove adesso hanno costruito tutte quelle case nuove.
GB: si perché il ponte lo han rifatto.
GB: Ma non come prima [unclear], Prima era più curvo e adesso.
AM: Sì, l’hanno fatto un po’ più in giù.
TM: L’han spustà, l’han spustà.
GB: Perché lì nel piazzale c’erano gli alberghi, di Ferrari, gh’era tut.
TM: Al ciclista atacà al pont.
GB: Andàt giu tut.
TM: Antonio, l’ha vüst no nanca lü [unclear].
AM: No abbiamo visto in fotografie e senti quei c’am cuntan ialtar.
GB: Antonio l’è giuin eh dai.
AM: Che me contava mio ziu, me contava mio papà.
GB: Antonio da chi a dü dì al cumpisa no ottantaquattr’anni. [laughs]
AM: [laughs]
GB: [laughs] Te capì?
AM: Sì, sì, sì.
FA: Va bene.
GB: Basta così?
FA: Va bene.
GB: Mi dispiace che forse anche un po’ l’età che non siamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe.
TM: Non ci ricordiamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per questa intervista.
GB: Facciamo il caffé?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa recollect the bombing of Pavia and give a vivid description of its immediate aftermath. They describe food shortages, resorting to eating potatoes with milk and queuing up for a portion of salt. Gabriella emphasises how her father refused to join the fascist party and how the war ended the day he was about to be deported. They recount various wartime episodes: a German soldier in the act of surrendering being shot in the back by his comrades, harrowing scenes of bodies carried away on wooden stretchers, and acts of kindness by fascist relatives, 'Pippo' bombing at night, anti-aircraft batteries positioned in the city and the accidental bombing of a church and houses near the old bridge which was the actual target.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:48 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABisioG-MascherpaT170308
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1702.2.jpg
2f46ef1a16000254b14a168175fe9b28
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1701.2.jpg
b039d51b699a66b9cdfd0a9ed039e2d9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/APayneGA170528.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Geoff
Geoffrey Albert Payne
G A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Geoff Payne (b. 1924, 1584931 Royal Air Force) and his memoir. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 115 and 514 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Geoff Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BJ: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Brenda Jones. The person being interviewed is Geoffrey Payne. The interview is taking place in Mr. Payne’s home in Cumbernauld on the 28th of May 2017. Mr. Payne, thank you for agreeing to talk to me today. Could you tell me about your life before you joined the RAF?
GP: Well, my life was a bit raggedy, I was an apprentice to Sheet Metal Work and worked in a company in the centre of Birmingham and we were manufacturing spats for Lysander aircraft and making fire pumps, things like that and more interested in sports than anything else [laughs].
BJ: And how did you come to join the RAF?
GP: Well, I joined the Air Training Corps, which I was one of the original members and it was the Air Training Corps was at Birmingham was the Austin Motor Company Squadron which was 480 and 479, there were two squadrons in the, ATC squadrons, and that’s why I started to get involved with the, with the Air Force, thinking a lot about the Air Force at the time. We went to camp to RAF Weeton, which was a Pathfinder Squadron, 7 Squadron, which were flying Stirlings and the most funniest part about us, we wanted to go into St Yves for the evening and we had to know a password to go out of the place because there was operations on that night and they said the password was WATER, which was this, I think they were pulling our legs or something like that, they said because the Germans can’t sound the w’s is wasser, so that was the sort of thing, that gave me a great interest in the Air Force.
BJ: OK. And when did you come to join the Air Force?
GP: I joined when I was seventeen and a half and I went to Vishyde Close in Birmingham to get assessed and I was assessed as a pilot and I was given a number and then sent back to work again because they wouldn’t call me up until I was eighteen but in the meantime I had a letter from them saying that it would possibly take far too long for me to become a pilot and that they’d had other vacancies in the Air Force which was an air gunner so I decided to do that.
BJ: And what year was this?
GP: 1943, yes.
BJ: And what happened when you started with the RAF?
GP: What happened?
BJ: Yes, what did your training involve?
GP: The training, we went to London, to Lord’s Cricket Ground and then we were put into high-rise flats and then we had our meals at the London zoo and used to march there every, for breakfast those [unclear] and tea and there’s one occasion there when there was a heavy air raid and at Lord’s Cricket Ground there’s the Regent’s Park and [unclear] anti-aircraft comes and we had to move out and go to another set of flats which was a hospital, which the RAF hospital, and carry all the patients down from the high floors cause they wouldn’t, couldn’t go down in the lifts and carry the, down in stretchers into the basement and back up then and then after that initial training, I went to Bridlington for ITW and that’s a nice seaside place, enjoyed it there and then off we went to Air Gunners School which was in the Isle of Man, just outside Ramsey, a place called Andreas and then, after three months of training, we were sent to an ITW, which was in Banbury where we were crewed up and flew in Wellingtons and from then we, we had to go to Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Stirling set-up, a place called Wratting Common in Cambridgeshire and we did that and then also we moved to, did an escape course at Feltwell and which was hilarious and then.
BJ: What did they teach you there about escaping?
GP: Unarmed combat and this sort of thing but it was, it just became a laugh actually [laughs] so, but we were there for the week and then we went back onto Wratting Common on Stirlings but at that time the Stirlings was being phased out from operations in the, for the main force in Bomber Command and we were transferred to, onto Lancasters which were radial engines Mark II, Hercules engines and from then we did a couple of weeks training there before we were put onto the squadron.
BJ: How did you find the Lancasters compared to the Stirlings?
GP: I didn’t like the Stirlings at all.
BJ: Ah!
GP: No, they frightened me because whilst I was converting onto Stirlings, I had to go to Newmarket to do a short gunnery course there and in the meantime my crew then crashed one of the Stirlings at [unclear] market so and but I, they phased these Stirlings out and that’s why I went on to Lancasters and then from Lancasters on Waterbeach we moved to a squadron which was RAF Witchford.
BJ: Ok. What happened when you got to Witchford?
GP: [laughs] We arrived at Witchford and then the following day we had to go round, signing in, which is a normal thing, you go to all the various sections and sign in and so forth like that and you get your billets and that and I went to the gunnery leaders office to sign in there and he says, ah yes, he says, you’re on tonight and that was the second day I was there [laughs] and I was, I said, what for? He says, well, there’s a rear gunner taken ill and you’ll have to, you’ll be flying with Lieutenant Speelenburg who was South African.
BJ: How did you feel about that?
GP: Terrible, it was, it was, to do a first op with a sprog crew which, the crew was a, they hadn’t done any operations before anyway and I hadn’t done any operations so they obviously bloodied with a new crew and that was one of the most horrendous air raids I’ve been on and that was to Augsburg, in southern Germany which was an eight hour journey, it was the most frightening experience I’ve ever had in my life so.
BJ: What happened on the mission?
GP: Oh, we got attacked over the target by a, by two Messerschmitt 109s, well, we got through that alright but it was, I never in my life would have expected to witness such a melee which was over the target, and I thought to myself I’m not coming out through this loss.
BJ: Do you remember what the target was?
GP: Augsburg.
BJ: Yes.
GP: It was the MAN works.
BJ: Ok.
GP: So that was, it was a night trip, eight-hour trip.
BJ: And did you stay with that crew then after?
GP: No, no.
BJ: No. So, how did you get assigned to a crew?
GP: I’d already got my crew,
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: From, from Banbury, from Chipping Warden. I’d already got my crew, my crew were there but they were doing cross country south. So that was me doing me first op and I thought, I’ll never gonna get through this. So, that was my first operation and in the morning I couldn’t get off to sleep so I decided to, I walked into Ely and the Oxford and Cambridge boat race was on there so that was the, because they didn’t have the boat races in London because of the bombings, so I saw the boat race there.
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: And came back, that’s it, so I said, no, that’s it, you can’t, you got to, maybe get through this alright but just forget about it and take it as it comes.
BJ: Ok. So, what, what was, can you tell me a bit more about some of the other missions you flew from Witchford?
GP: Well, I only did, I only did five operations from Witchford and I got frostbite, because we got attacked by a night fighter which destroyed all the communications and heating in the aircraft, but we managed to get back ok. So, that was alright and that was me put away from frostbite to Ely hospital for some time and then I was transferred to Waterbeach for recuperation and then I picked up another crew at Waterbeach which is Ted Cousins’s and I finished my tour of operations at Waterbeach with that crew.
BJ: What were you flying in at Waterbeach?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What planes were you flying in from Waterbeach?
GP: Lancaster IIs.
BJ: Lancaster IIs. Ok, right, and can you tell me as what it was like on the base there, day to day life?
GP: Base was good because Witchford was a wartime place and everything was so dispersed you could walk miles for meals and things like that. But Waterbeach was a pre-war station and everything was on tap and there were nice billets and cosy, not like the Nissen huts that we did have, so these were brick-built, brick-built buildings and quite comfortable in a way.
BJ: And what did you do in your time off?
GP: Just going home [laughs].
BJ: Really? Aha.
GP: If you could get home. [unclear] the time off just mainly drinking [laughs].
BJ: What was it like coming home after being on operations?
GP: It was very strange and it’s a funny thing, I haven’t been away from home until I went in the Air Force. It’s a very strange feeling when you come back home and see that, it was a good feeling, but it didn’t last long so I had to go back again and that was it.
BJ: And what did you tell your mum and dad about your life in the RAF?
GP: I didn’t tell them anything, I didn’t think it was fair.
BJ: Ah.
GP: Because my brother, my brother was a navigator wireless operator on Mosquitoes, he was out in Burma so there’s both of us, there were three boys in the family and just my elder brother and myself were in the Air Force and the younger brother, he went in the army, just after the war. It was, it was quite strange because all your friends were away and we just had to nosy around, just going to the pictures or something like that. It wasn’t all that pleasant, it’s nice to see your family but as I say, it was quite boring.
BJ: And what sort of missions were you involved in, when you were at Waterbeach? Where were the targets?
GP: The targets, Witchford was, the targets were German targets, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg and one or two others. From Waterbeach there was quite a variety of targets which are sometimes daylight raids and night raids, sometimes were French targets, and then all of a sudden you’d be onto a German target at night, which is [unclear] sorted it out.
BJ: What did you have a preference for daytime or nighttime missions?
GP: I used to like to rather go at night time, I didn’t like daytime [laughs]. You could see too much.
BJ: Right. Were there any particularly memorable missions that you flew on?
GP: Actually, most of them were quite memorable, we did a raid to Beckdiames which was in Southern France and that was an eight hour trip and this was a daylight raid and we went out at under a thousand feet all the way and until we got to the target, the target was a port actually and we climbed up to the bombing height, bombed and dropped down to, under a thousand feet again because of the radar, that was the idea of it but it was a long trip, it was an eight hour trip and it was quite a dangerous trip because the Bay of Biscay it was the, the Junkers 88 used to wonder around there quite a lot, you know, so. And then, there was another one which was to Stettin which was in Poland and that was another long trip, under a thousand feet all the way, this was a night time raid and we flew over Denmark and we could see the lights of Sweden and the anti-aircraft fire was coming up from Sweden, things like that [laughs] and then we went to, got to Stettin which we got to the bombing height and came back down again and what [unclear], we just lost one, one squadron, one aircraft on that squadron. So, and there was, there’s quite a few things which, one of the most scary attacks that we had was my last operation really to Duisburg. And that was the, the squadron went out early to bomb Duisburg, there was over a thousand aircraft to do it, and then, as soon as we got back, over the target the air was black with flak and it was the most frightening experience, I was in daylight did not expect to go to a German target in daylight and then it gradually settled down then but when we got back, we were sent down to, the air gunners were sent down to the bomb disposal place to help to load bombs up again for the same target and then the following day the German, the Americans bombed the same place, that was a disastrous place, terrible. That was about it, you know, but most of the trips were rather scary cause you never knew what was gonna happen there [unclear], you could be attacked by fighters any time.
BJ: What was it like being up in the turret?
GP: Very cold. Very cold [unclear] with ice all the way down there because we didn’t have any Perspex in the turret, we had it taken out because you can just imagine if you are flying at night and you can get attacked by a fighter and if you get any dirt on your Perspex you wouldn’t, it would be a, you wouldn’t know whether you got a fighter coming through, you see but where I got frostbite was around about forty degrees below but you see, your oxygen mask you had a lot of breath dripping down you know, froze up and all that.
BJ: What were you wearing to keep warm then?
GP: Well, I had a heated suit actually, the first time was one of these urban jackets and trousers which were all [unclear] and things like that. Eventually they got full heated suits which you’d plug into your boots and plug into your gloves, they heated up all over so you, you weren’t so cumbersome in the turret so, so that wasn’t too bad. It was when, the one time I said when the, the heating got shot up but it was cold.
BJ: Ok. And anything else that you remember about your time in the two squadrons?
GP: I’m just trying to think about it now. I was involved in athletics with the squadron so I did [unclear] got plenty of time off, things like that, apart from my flying, I was excused duties because I was, I got involved in football and things like that, I didn’t have to do any guard duties and things like that so.
BJ: Ok. Did that involve you going around to other bases?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: Did you go to other bases doing that?
GP: It was just the odd at lib sort of things, you know, you compete against the Americans or something like that, you know and,
BJ: Ok, how did you get on?
GP: We weren’t as good as the Americans, I tell you.
BJ: [laughs]
GP: No, we weren’t as good as the Americans, no, they got far greater facilities and that sort of things like that, you know.
BJ: Ok, and what did you do at the end of the war? What, you know, how did you get demobbed and that sort of thing?
GP: Well, when the, as I finished mature, I was sent up to a place in Northern Scotland, place called Bracla and that was for time expired men, aircrew you see, had [unclear] virtually offices and things like that, and my, my flight commander was up there as well, Lord Mackie, he ended up as Lord Mackie and we just had to march about and things like that and then we were selected for ordinary jobs in the Air Force you see and I wanted to become a PTI which is a Physical Training Instructor because I would’ve had the opportunity to go through to Loughborough and take sports right the way through and then that’s what I wanted to go for but they put me down as a driver [laughs]. So I moved from there and went to driving school at Weeton in Blackpool which was quite good actually, it was quite enjoyable and then from then I was, I went to various camps in this country and then my final camp was in Germany where I was with a microfilm unit taking microfilm documents of all the machine tool drawings and things like that and that’s,
BJ: Where was that?
GP: That was at Frankfurt, Frankfurt but we wondered around Stuttgart and other places, went round all these factories and taking these microfilms of these documents and things like that, that was the, that was my end, I ended and came back to Weeton where I was demobbed.
BJ: So, what was it like being in Germany, down on the ground, this time?
GP: It was, it wasn’t too bad, we weren’t allowed to fraternise at all, you know, we did play football against the Germans and things like that and got thrushed.
BJ: Oh, alright [laughs]
GP: So, I played for the army when we were in Frankfurt and we played a game against the Germans, select team which is if we really got thrushed and that was the first time we realised what sort of football the continentals played as compared with our football but anyway that was, I enjoyed my time in Germany and I learned to speak German quite fluently and which stood me in good sted with my civilian job so that was good and
BJ: How did you learn to speak German?
GP: Well, I had to speak German [laughs].
BJ: Yeah?
GP: Well, I mean, if you were driving around and things like that and you lost your way, you had to talk and things like that so that’s how it went [unclear] I wish I had kept it up actually, which it would have been useful to me but it was useful anyway because I dealt with the Germans, a German company in me civilian life more so than anything and of course was a strange thing that the fellow that I dealt with in Germany, he was a Luftwaffe pilot [unclear] [laughs] and something I know quite well actually.
BJ: Did you tell him you’d been in the RAF?
GP: Yes, yeah. So, I mean it was no end to the, not at all, not with service people [unclear] so they got a job to do, we got a job to do and that was it but
BJ: So what did you do after you were demobbed then?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What did you do after the RAF? After you left?
GP: I went back to my old company and I gradually progressed there, we were manufacturing cars, Standard, the Triumph and the Triumph Spitfires and these sort of things, and but there was so much, so many problems down in the Midlands with the car industry of strikes and all that sort of thing and I just got married and we bought a new house and things like that, it’s becoming very difficult because we’re going on short time, even when you’re on staff you’re on short time so, I decided to make a move and come up here and that was that.
BJ: What did you do up here, in Scotland?
GP: I ended up as a production director at Carron company in Falkirk and but I set up a, came up and set up a plant for manufacturing steel bars and that sort of thing and then I did twenty-three years there and that’s it.
BJ: Ok, and how do you think being in Bomber Command affected the rest of your life?
GP: It did affect me because the, the people, the people that you met in Bomber Command, they were virtually like your brothers, a wonderful set up, it was great and as I say, it was still, we’re still getting involved with reunions and one of the addresses, the two addresses that I gave you, these are the people that I flew with, so, it was, I wouldn’t have missed it for the world. Really.
BJ: Ok. Alright, anything else you’d like to add, Mr. Payne?
GP: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s about all, that’s, I summarised quite a bit.
BJ: Alright. Thank you very much.
GP: Ok, thank you. [file continued] I’m trying to fill it all in you, you can’t.
US: I know you can’t [unclear], I just.
BJ: Right, this is the interview with Mr. Payne continuing.
GP: Right, one of the most horrendous trips that I did was to Frankfurt. And after the target, we were coming back, we were about half an hour away back from the target when I spotted a aircraft with about four hundred meters behind below and it turned out to be a Messerschmitt 109 and I wanted, I tried to warn the, I tried to warn the pilot but the intercom had frozen up, my mouthpiece had frozen up and I tried to Morse coding with the emergency light and the emergency light wasn’t working so that was it, there was actually nothing I could do about it and as the aircraft came closer to me, which was below at about a hundred meters, I opened fire on it and the guns jammed so therefore I was completely at a loss, I couldn’t do anything, I couldn’t warn the captain or anything about cause I’ve no intercom and no emergency lighting so I just had to hang on a bit and then after a minute the aircraft came underneath us and opened fire and blasted all the centre of the aircraft and the smell of cordite was amazing and then the aircraft started to manoeuvre all over the sky doing very violent evasive action or I thought that we were out of control, completely out of control so I got out of my turret and walked back and found that the main door was swinging open and then I got up to the mid upper turret and the mid upper gunner had gone, he’d bailed out and there was all cannon shell holes all around his turret there, so eventually I thought, that so quiet I thought the rest of the crew had gone, now I walked up, gradually I got through into the main cabin and found the rest of the crew were ok and so forth and that we went back to the sit in the turret, well, I couldn’t do anything anyway, so we were coming in to land, but we got back home ok, coming in to land and I started to smell cordite and I, I looked about at the back in the, in the ammunition panniers and there was a fire in there which must have got hit by an incendiary bullet and we had to land, emergency land and it was, it was an incendiary bullet, that was wedged in the bullets, so [laughs], that was that day but there was also another one, no, I don’t think I will talk about that, just [unclear].
BJ: Ok, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoff Payne
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brenda Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneGA170528, PPayneG1702, PPayneG1701
Format
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00:32:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
United States Army Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Geoff Payne has his first experience of the Royal Air Force with the Air Training Corps, at RAF Wyton in Cambridgeshire, where he had one of his first experiences of military humour. He joined in 1943 at the age of 17 and a half hoping to become a pilot - he took the faster option because of his young age and trained as an air gunner.
Basic training was carried out at Lords Cricket ground in London. One clear memory is helping to carry patients down several flights of stairs from a nearby hospital during an air raid.
Time was spent at RAF Bridlington on Initial Training Wing before attending Air Gunnery School in the Isle of Man. Further training was undertaken at RAF Banbury where he was crewed up on Wellingtons, before moving to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wratting Common to convert to Stirlings. During his time here he attended an escape course at RAF Feltwell and was instructed in unarmed combat, which he dismissed as pitiful.
He and his crew were posted to RAF Witchford, Cambridgeshire, where he flew his first operation in February 1944 replacing an ill air gunner. He later discovered this was an inexperienced crew. He remembers the target was around Osnabrück in Germany and it was a melee over the target where they were attacked by two Me 109s, which they successfully shook off. On his return, he remembers being unable to sleep and went for a walk into Ely. There he discovered the Oxford Cambridge boat race was being held and watched it
Target areas of Germany included Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg. On his 5th operation, the aircraft was attacked, and the aircraft lost its heating and communications. He suffered frostbite and spent several months recovering in Ely hospital.
On regaining fitness, he was transferred to RAF Waterbeach and was allocated to a crew led by Ted Cousins. Waterbeach was a pre-war airfield with comfortable facilities. Time off was spent competing in athletics and football along with drinking at the local public houses.
When time allowed, he went home, but found the experience boring: all his friends were serving away, and there was little to do except drink or go to the cinema. His elder brother was serving as a navigator in the Far East, and he felt it unfair to talk about his experiences with his family.
At RAF Waterbeach there was a greater variety of operations. Targets varied from Germany to Southern France. He also remembers one trip to Poland. This entailed flying over Denmark and they could see the lights from Sweden and anti-aircraft fire.
He has a clear memory of most of his operations but does not wish to dwell on some. On one occasion he spotted a Me 109, he tried to warn the pilot but his intercom had frozen and emergency light was inoperative. He tried to open fire but his guns jammed – the night fighter opened fire and hit the centre of the aircraft. The aircraft began violently manoeuvring and he wasn’t sure if this was deliberate evasive manoeuvres or if they were out of control. He made his way forward and discovered the aircraft door open and the mid upper gunner missing. There were cannon holes all around the centre of the aircraft. He still wasn’t sure if he was the only one on board until he reached the main cabin and found the rest of the crew in position. They made it back home where they realised an incendiary bullet was lodged in the ammunition pannier.
His last operation was one of the thousand-bomber operations in Germany, the air black with anti-aircraft fire. On his return, the air gunners went sent to the bomb dump to assist the armourers in preparing the bombs for the following days attack which was carried out by the United States Army Air Forces.
After completing his tour of operation, he was posted to RAF Brackla, hoping to be retained as physical training instructor, but ended up at RAF Weeton near Blackpool to be trained as a driver.
He served at several locations across Southern England before his final posting which was with a microfilm unit in Frankfurt. Fraternising with locals was not allowed, but he did manage to learn German. He played in a football match against a much better German select team.
After demob, he returned home and was involved in the manufacturing of cars at the Triumph factory. He married, and because of unrest and strikes in the car industry, he moved to Scotland and was employed at the Carron company in Falkirk as a production director manufacturing steel bars, where his ability to speak German became an advantage in his dealings with foreign companies. He met an ex Luftwaffe pilot and experiences were exchanged - there was no animosity whatsoever and it was accepted they both had been carrying out their duty.
Geoff looks back on his time in Bomber Command with great fondness. It was like a big family. He still has contact with surviving crew members, and still attends reunions.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Ely
England--Lancashire
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Stuttgart
Denmark
Sweden
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Scotland
Scotland--Falkirk
Scotland--Nairnshire
Scotland--Stirlingshire
Germany--Osnabrück
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
115 Squadron
514 Squadron
7 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Me 109
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Brackla
RAF Bridlington
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Feltwell
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
RAF Wyton
sport
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/870/11111/AHextellGJE160104.2.mp3
37d80c475d2be9fba2485ea100ad6789
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hextell, George
George Joseph Edwin Hextell
G J E Hextell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer George Hextell (1141319 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hextell, GJE
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GH: Yes well, I’m [unclear] Hextell, Hextell, I was a WO, my number 1141319.
MJ: So, how did you manage to get into the RAF then?
GH: How did I manage to get into this? Well, as I say, I was conscription, in 1940, all called up, all the people, the young people, and then I was [unclear] going to be dragged into the army, I thought when I got into the RAF I couldn’t be a pilot, cause I thought, I haven’t got the education for that, I going underground staff cause I worked in a factory, Morris motors, in Birmingham and I went into Birmingham and signed up one Saturday lunchtime, I hadn’t finished my job, and I wanted to know what happened to me cause I was called up after two or three days and posted to Warrington Padgate RAF training station where I did my square bashing and all that stuff and as I say, I hadn’t packed my job and eventually my mother had to get into the factory and tell the bastards I had joined, what did he do that for? They said, you know, there was a job here for him, if he wants it, I thought, no, so I trained as a flight mechanic, cause I was interested in wheels [unclear] and cars and engines and I went to after about three or four months at Padgate I was posted to number 5 school of technical training at Locking in Somerset and I went on a course on engines and aircraft there, you know, and I was there till end of 1941 and I passed out after that was posted to Scotland, Castletown, right up in the north of Scotland, you could almost see Norway, from where we were but we were only there about two or three weeks and [unclear] library, not doing much, any odd jobs and then we were eventually posted, as I say, to number 5 school of technical training Somerset, big long train ride down from up in Scotland and, I was there till the end of 1941 as I say when I got posted to Scotland and all I did, I worked and see all these different engines and aircraft, you know, worked on the Merlin engine, you know, and when I’d finished that they sent me to a maintenance echelon in Kent, [unclear] End, I worked on the maintenance echelon, squadrons came and went but I, we’re always permanent there like, you know, and Spitfires and all I could remember during there the Battle of Dieppe, when they landed in Dieppe in 1942, that was in September, that was disastrous, I remember that morning and I got up early, about five o’clock as something was on but nobody, oh, the second front started but that’s what it was, it turned out to be, Dieppe and they after the German [unclear] headquarters at Lorient and of course a lot of casualties, a lot of Canadian soldiers took part, a lot got killed, lot got captured and [unclear] after that we went to, so Dieppe, we just servicing the Spitfires that’s all, I was an engineman and we just served the Merlin engine up you know and it was good but, stop there for [unclear]. Well it was [unclear] at Gravesend but one day the engineer officer called us all in and wanted to know who wanted volunteer as flight engineers on the four engine aircraft that were coming into service, the Lanc, Halifax and the Stirling and of course there was three of us there, I put me name down for it, and I said, oh I can’t do any [unclear] but I was the only one who passed the medical, we had to go up to Euston House in London, aircrew candidate selection board and they explained to us all about how to fly, you know, [unclear] up and dark nights and flying over the oceans and that, you know and [unclear] and all this kind of thing you know but I went through with it and I was sent to St Athans in South Wales near [unclear], Cardiff and I did a course there and these four engine bombers would come in and they what they wanted to know was, there was a great big crowd of us volunteered and all the chaps going in for the Lancaster, you know, cause it got a famous name but and the squadron leader, I remember, he got us all lined up in the hangar, a big long queue of us and he said to stop any argument about who wants to go on, which was the best aircraft. He divided us up into three and he said that’s it, Stirlings, Halifaxes, Lancasters. Well, I got the Halifax, I went into the Halifax, and that’s how I came to be trained, trained at St Athans. And that’s a while I was posted to Marston Moor into Yorkshire and that was a conversion unit, number ten conversion unit and where pilots and aircrew met up and cause you see the crew I got in eventually had been flying on Whitleys then at St Eval in Cornwall on Coastal Command but they all stuck together and of course I was coming up [unclear] a conversion unit so it was there I turned up with them and became the flight engineer and of course there was seven of us in the crew, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, rear gunner, mid upper gunner and all like that and that’s how I came to be with 51 Squadron. But it was only [unclear] I don’t know what they’d done before but, quite a bit before we went on our operations but the first operation we went on was mine laying off the Dutch coast, dropping mines in the sea and we used to have a naval officer explaining how important it was just [unclear] dropping it in the right place and the right height and all this kind of thing, that was the first flight I flew but of course I did many, we did many hours [unclear] circuit and bombs training, I mean the pilot was, all the crew was getting trained and I was getting trained as well in [unclear] that’s how I came to be with them but as I say the 51 squadron was only like just four men, and there was not many before, you see, you know a lot of names but I didn’t know many because I wasn’t there that long and I went there in the end of January ’43 and we went on, I went on two bombing raids with a crew, with our crew to Lorient in France and one night I went with my own crew and another time I stood in for somebody who was absent for another crew, they’re all officers, pilots, navigators, they was all officers, and I flew with them and I remember the first night we went on, we got back at about three o’clock in the morning and we couldn’t get back to our [unclear] I was stationed at Snaith in Yorkshire, East Yorkshire and couldn’t get back on our own drome so we had to land at Stowe-in-the-Wold in Gloucestershire and everybody, I think it was the first time I’ve seen these giant four engine bombers, you know, and all the people came out and looked at it, they were a big aircraft it was and after that I came to be [unclear] but as I say we did two operations in Lorient but that’s all I did and I just saw the operation mine laying, two to Lorient and on the fourth operation we did on Dusseldorf on the 27th of January ‘43 and I thought, oh, blimey, that’s done it, cause the briefing officer told us it was a heavily defended area, well we knew that because of all the Ruhr and all the places around there, Essen and all those places, I mean, it’s taken a heavy toll of our aircraft but of course it, well, it didn’t bother me and you know, but I thought we’ll get through it alright. But we were shot down over Holland, got over the North Sea alright into Holland, never heard a word, everything quiet and then next thing, I was sitting, I was standing in the middle of the fuselage, putting a flare in a flare shoot for taking photos with the cameras, you know, when the bombs dropped and whilst I stood there all of a sudden on the starboard side, right that at [unclear] machine gun bullets you know [mimics machine gun fire] couldn’t believe it, you know, couldn’t understand it, [unclear] one side or the other, he caught the port engine which controls all the hydraulics and pumps and that and the aircraft and I thought, oh, that was, looking into the astrodome it caught fire, the wing caught fire and I was horrified and the pilot was trying to save it but the aircraft you know dodged about and that but we were going down and we were all rushing, putting our parachutes on and the next thing I knew was I was flying through the air and the second pilot was a New Zealander, he explained it he could he’s written a little book about from where he came from in New Zealand who landed off, and as we were blown out, I was blown out, there was three of us out of the seven and three escaped, the New Zealander, our wireless operator and myself, the other four chaps got killed, pilot, navigator, the bomb aimer and rear gunner. I’ve never heard a word from them at all. And it was in Mill in Holland, place called Mill and it was five past six took off and from up in Yorkshire, ten past eight I was in a prison cell in Holland. Germans wanted to know, you know, why come bombing our women and children, and all I said, well, for the simple reason that you are coming and bombing our women and children and then of course they [unclear] interrogated me and I was there about a week I think and we went to the Dulag Luft interrogation centre and were there a while. Then they sent us to Amsterdam in a big prison, a big prison or whatever it was, big [unclear] and we were locked up in solitary confinement and had a lot of questions asked, you know, and were there about a week and one Sunday they transferred us from Amsterdam onto a train to take us to in [unclear] was Stalag VIII-B but they renamed it later Stalag 344 because Sagan, the Stalag Luft 3 where the air, the air people, where the aircrew prisoners went, they were full, the two, to many, so I had to go to a Stalag but this was at Lamsdorf in Upper Silesia near the Polish border, what’s the name? [unclear] I think or something like that and that was where I ended up but I know the night we flew, we had a brand new aircraft, it had only come from the manufacturers the day before but it hadn’t got a mid-upper turret [unclear] you got [unclear] hadn’t got a mid-upper turret on this particular one, the wing commander said it will give you more speed and all the rest of it you know and [unclear] he didn’t need a mid-upper gunner, so Taffy Jones, our mid-upper gunner he didn’t fly with us that night, he got away with it but as I say, I mentioned a second pilot, but I forgot to mention that before we took off at six o’clock at night from Snaith and staff come up and the group captain came up with this chap and he was a New Zealander, Jack Cardey and he said, I want this chap to fly with you tonight, he said, it’ll give him a bit of experience and that was the first time we met him and he got on board and that was his experience, he became a POW, and I’ve heard from him once or twice but not lately but yes, that’s how I came to be in Poland. Yes, capacity of the Halifax I think it was eleven hundred and ninty gallons but the first flight engineer, the idea was to run the engines as quickly as possible, to have the throttles open all the time, you know, to give, put [unclear] and get the engines to performing properly and another thing before take-off you were testing your engines before one by one and ramp them up to about three thousand ribs [unclear] a minute and then switch one of the magnetos off, there’d be a drop of one of the rears, I think, what was it so many percent, five percent was it, you were allowed if you that went below that [unclear] was faulty, yes, all the four engines [unclear] two magneto on each side of the Merlin was a marvellous engine [unclear] this is a backdrop somewhere ok, ok for take-off. Yes, it was quite an experience but we got through it alright and as I say with Jack Cardey, second pilot who flew with us, he didn’t act as a pilot, as I say, he was only a passenger, he was more than a passenger than I was. But he was in the Royal New Zealand Air Force and I think he’d come from Wellingtons and flown Wellingtons before. And of course at Snaith where I was stationed, 51 Squadron, they’d done all our operations from there and we hadn’t been there for long, as I say, there was only like just four men squadron up and I didn’t know any of the people that went before, you know, I mean, you just mentioned I knew a lot of people who [unclear], well I wouldn’t know, I think I knew about two, a Canadian, [unclear] Stewart or somebody like that and I know I went to Berlin one night and back or something, Slim Stewart, he was a Canadian, but no, as I say, I didn’t have enough time there to get to know anybody, I knew the group captain Grey, he was a station commander, I was in b flights squadron leader Moore, [unclear] Moore, h flights was name Russell, squadron leader Russell, and quite alright, yes I was, but as I say, we didn’t do many operations but [unclear] good the Germans were, night fighters, defences and that and as I say, we didn’t know this fighter was creeping up on us, never heard a word, never heard a word from the rear gunnery and I was horrified as I stood there and saw the tracer coming through the fuselage, you know, it caught fire, but as I say, we were blown out, that how [unclear] Netherland the cottage to walk up to the door and by [unclear] you do see these [unclear] but I was found myself floating through the air, and I saw lights going out in front of me going round and round a big roulette wheel, always remember it, and I was [unclear] I better pull this, the ripcord and I landed as I thought was a field but it was a bit of a built up area than that and I laid there for a bit I thought [unclear] a fine death or [unclear] something like that you know people come running up the Dutch farmer and he came up to me and I said, where am I? Where am I? And he said, Nederland, Nederland, I thought, where the hell is that, suddenly dropped the Netherlands, you know, and up to his house, he’s got two young daughters, they’re all clever [unclear] they brought [unclear] and money and souvenirs and [unclear] but they said that there was a couple of priests there who [unclear] quickly, they said, we’ll hide this, you know, that [unclear] a parachute and I said, we’ll have to notify the Dutch police, I presume they had to do it with any prisoners, there was a Lancaster shot down in the same area at the same time cause they picked the crew up with us and we were in this Dutch policeman’s house, he’s a Dutch police and I said notify them and he said, well, we’ll have to notify the Germans and they sent a minibus and when they opened up the doors, there was George Farmer, our wireless operator, he was a member of our crew and he’s a New Zealander and also a Lancaster crew as well, I think they were all intact, they picked them up in the same area and next thing I say I was being interrogated at a local station wanted to know where I’d come from, what the squadron was, bomb load was carrying, what [unclear] was and everything else, where you’re stationed, you know, and all that kind of business and yeah and as I say, I spent the night [unclear] and fetched up in front of this chap of the Luftwaffe, he wanted to know every day where we come from and what we were doing and all the rest of it, next thing we went to Dulag Luft [unclear] interrogation the treating of all the and then Dulag Luft, went to Amsterdam and I saw the big army place there, our second pilot, he’s been since the end of the war [unclear] travel I don’t know but I mean [unclear] we’ve been to Holland and we’ve sorted the place out with the war graves commission, we’ve been to the scene where our four chaps were buried because we had to identify them, cause the Germans said, you have to come and identify your crew and that got to [unclear] a church or somewhere and they took us down and there was four wooden coffins and there were the bodies lying in there and I said early, most of identify to let the people know, you know, but I couldn’t look at them because it upset me but [unclear] Farmer, our wireless op, he was thirteen years older than me, a bit more mature and he identified them, apparently they are buried in an air force base but after a while we in Holland that they buried them in this place where we went on a weekend in May and May is a big [unclear] first two or three days in May there were all flags flying out in Holland and, you know, as I know you come from England they will treat you well and really good. [unclear] Well, what I would like to do is to, you mentioned one chap [unclear] where he went to, I want to know how many miles we did from when we came after the camp in 1945 on that march, I mean, the names of the first, we went to Lamsdorf on the 22nd of January 1945, we could hear the Russian gunfire on the Eastern Front [unclear] and an Anson came over the Channel to evacuate the camp and we got ready to move out, we got nothing, bits of food stored up, which we took with us and out to the dark then they found us a barn, they herded us all in this barn, that’s where we slept and that’s we did, [unclear] months and months and as I say, it was the 22nd of January and [unclear] about April time before we never knew where we were like you know, I didn’t know then, I should have loved to know, I know the name of some of the important towns as Gorlitz, went from Lamsdorf to Gorlitz, oh, that was a terrible place, [unclear] Russian prisoners there, they treated them like, well, dogs, [unclear], never forget, filthy place [unclear] about a week and then moved us on the road, we never went to another camp, we went to, I can remember Jena, you know where, there are the famous optical lense [unclear] and what is the other place, where they did the porcelain? In German, Meissen [unclear], Meissen, heard about Meissen ceramic wares, marvellous, innit? [unclear] To plot the route we took and what we covered many miles [unclear] I said, end of January in April ’45 and the Germans got to be [unclear] you know and they used to catch you every morning, every night but I was with three of the [unclear] family wireless operator and we met up with another chap who was a [unclear] bloke some kind of destroyer in the Mediterranean and he decided to leave the company [unclear] like you know and we stayed, they put us in a barn one night and we stayed up there all the next day until it got dark, then we headed across the fields cause one got a compass, we could hear the Russian gunfire on our right in the East we could hear the Allied gunfire, the Americans and British on the left and we headed towards them and I know it was a terrible cold [unclear] in the [unclear] it was one of the coldest winters that I experienced.
MJ: Did you have a coat this time?
GH: Pardon?
MJ: Were you lucky enough to have a coat?
GH: A coat?
MJ: Yeah.
GH: Yes, I had a grey coat, yes, had a grey coat and one of us got a [unclear], a little [unclear] or a little saucepan. And I remember, the next morning when we woke, we [unclear] in this forest, we woke up, decided to have a cup of tea, [unclear] now we had a cup of tea, we lit a fire, made this tea and after a bit we sent a German, young German officer coming across, we thought, [unclear], this is the end, you know, [unclear] come around and put you hands up but all he said, he knew we were British and all he said was, don’t forget to put the fire out when you’re finished cause the smoke will attract aircraft in [unclear] always remembered saying that and we thought, oh, we got away with it, he got his Luger on the side, you know, he could have shot us easy, there’s four of us and the next day we saw a bloke, we were near a village, we saw a bloke with a big loaf of bread, a big cart with a loaf of bread, and we wondered where this bread had come from and we stopped him and asked him and he says, American tanks and troops so many kilometres down there, is the Third American army, the sixth army division, the Third American Army, General Patton and it was they who took care of us, they wanted us to go with them, they got a spearhead going through towards [unclear], come with us, they said, I said, no, we want to go home, we want to get back to England and they took us day by day, with these big six wheeler transport used to bring the supplies in, they took us back a few miles each day towards Paris and that, that’s where we finished up in Paris, one [unclear] did the time, that flew us from Paris to, forget the place now, I remember we had lunch [unclear] fish our fish is the best of all the Sunday lunch I’ve ever known, interrogated as quarter [unclear] as regards the performance of the aircraft, any spies, any stool pigeons, anybody like that, it was a bloke, forget his name, dammit, he was notorious but then I knew all about him and I don’t know what happened to him. But yes that was Lamsdorf for [unclear] yes. As I say, German officers sent for us, sent for me one day and in the main office and there was a German guard behind me walking with his rifle always walking behind you [unclear] shoot me but he wanted to know what my attitude was to the Russians, what my attitude was to the Russians, now they were dead scared of the Russians, yes, dead scared of the Russians, what do you think? I said, [unclear] if they attacked England, you know, I joined up and attacked them like to defend the country [unclear] saying that you know, wanted to know what my attitude was [unclear], I don’t know If I was the only one but they sent me two or three times and I, he was American cause he said to me, he said I’m a goddam American in the German, the German army, you know, and I could say, what are you doing in the German army [unclear] and things like that [unclear] I don’t know but that did happen, yes, want to know what your attitude was, what the British attitude to the Russians were, was alright, the Russians were alright, yes [coughs]. [unclear] to the camp, the barb wire, look out through the barb wire, see the typical German trees and the greenery enough in the spring and summer was nice, in the winter was bloody awful, I mean, there’s a [unclear] and you could hear the dogs patrolling the outside of the guard [unclear] you know, and there are all lights [unclear] and you went in the door of the hut, was a great big bulk kind of thing that they used in the night in case you had to [unclear] you know you couldn’t [unclear] the compound the [unclear] conditions were bloody helpless, just a [unclear] shed with a lot of wooden seats with [unclear], no cover, it’s not awful in the summer, terrible at [unclear] you know and it was whilst speaking earlier about the Dieppe prisoners, the Canadians, a lot of French Canadians killed and I reckoned, the Germans reckoned that our people took the German prisoners and chained them up with the result that we finished up in chains, you could just get under your pocket, handcuff [unclear] and you walk about like that, you sat, you sat [unclear] every morning, detail two or three blokes [unclear] big [unclear] all the chain across and bring them up from the office and then put them on you know, you walk about like that all day and if you wanted to tend to the nightshift, you get somebody of the German to unlock them, [unclear], we did all that, did all that and the parcels, [unclear] they were coming through but of course had always blame the RAF for bombing the railways or the Russians, was always blaming them, [unclear] the parcels, what you expect, we can’t get the transport, you’re bombing the railways and all that business but when we did get them, I mean, used to go down and I mean, I forget what country [unclear] parcel [unclear] us but perhaps put a pair of socks inside, just a pair of socks and [unclear] chocolate and cigarettes and of course the Germans all that when they used to go in the office and collect the parcels, this is a private parcel [unclear] that I [unclear] and cigarettes had stuck in [unclear] any messages inside and things like that you know and yeah and oh there’s a lot of chocolate, well of course that was the currency, soap and chocolate, you could get away with it, if you could bribe the Germans with that definitely and one of the blokes did and then another thing, you could go out on a working party if you wanted, if you felt that way inclined, go out on a working party, you’d pick somebody who looked you like [unclear] same way [unclear] and all this stuff and [unclear] identity, I’d go and [unclear] you [unclear] on a German farm, you know, work on a farm, get food and all that, get as much food as I wanted, you know, [unclear] like that, yeah, but we had the chance to do all that but [unclear] what you do to your [unclear] and I [unclear] by going, you know, to work you’re helping them, if you’re not, you’re not helping them and that was the idea but the parcels obviously they [unclear] parcel pretty good and milk and all that kind of stuff and there used to be one [unclear] every week was the M & V meat and veg bourse, they decided the cook house, the British blokes working in the cook house [unclear] German, they take a tin of meat and vegetable out to you parcel every week and cook it up for you kind of business that used to be great but of course there was a lot of racket going down there with blokes pinching more than one tin and all that, you say lot of that going on meat and veg always [unclear] and but we still lived alright work in twos parcel you get a parcel two a week [unclear] Tuesday or Thursday I think he does and collect the parcel and two of us living on the one parcel for two or three days and they try and get another one [unclear] part of our beds, there’s a little, have a little cupboard and a shelf and tins of this and tins of that and tins the other and cause I remember when [laughs] we had, came over the tannoy that we got load the camp at two o’clock in the afternoon the German commandant came over and he said that, you know, you gotta be ready for two o’clock, it was all queuing [unclear] all blankets and all that, you know, and we got tins of condense milk and all that kind of stuff [unclear] you know I remember I was sick of the bloody[unclear] wouldn’t let it fall under the Germans or under the Russians and, yeah, we took all this food and when they threw us, the first night when they threw us into this barn, great big barn, with straw on the floor and no lights and anything, no [unclear] and nothing like that and I felt sick and I wanted to be sick and I remember I got some new handkerchiefs had been more than seven days before and I was sitting all these handkerchiefs and that, you know, I’ll always remember that, sick as an [unclear], get up the next morning, you don’t know where you are going, what you were doing, I asked for a drink of water, no one would give you one, someone would give you drink of water, others wouldn’t, had promised you some [unclear] potatoes, cooked potatoes in big wicker baskets at the end of the day but you never got at the end of the day, you never got them, cause I [unclear] one or two of the German officers I reported it [unclear] one of them books down there I mentioned his name [unclear] what his name was but what happened I don’t know but they weren’t very, as I say, they never treated us, they never treated us too bad, anybody getting beat up or anything, cause lots of people, as you say, [unclear] to us, French Canadians captured at Dieppe, there were Sikhs and Indians and all kinds of, Palestinians [unclear] a year, the interrogator, he was a Palestinian, [unclear] Zelba, I don’t remember his name, and he used to do all our deals for [unclear], he used to get us a bit more coal to put [unclear] brickets to put on the stove, in the [unclear], you know to keep warm and we used to give him cigarettes and [unclear] and he used to bribe the German guard, he could speak German, he was born in Hamburg, as I say, he joined, he was with the RAF in Cyprus, and when Cyprus fell of course he was captured [unclear] Germany [unclear] collect cigarettes and all that, that’s how we used to get our stuff, listen to the radio every night [unclear] the bulletin come round, anybody caught with radios [unclear] every so often they would come and have a search they turn you all outside on a day like this, they turn outside early in the morning and they’d be out there all the bloody day, turning all your bed was ripped out, all that, you know [unclear] and put in detention, you know, and he ran away and the Jerry guard on a, it was on a Sunday and we was all lined up outside we saw all this going on and he ran away the chap did and the German guard got down on his knees and shot this bloke you know, he told him to halt and all that but he wouldn’t and that was going out on working party, yeah, but of course we gotta a senior British medical officer in the camp and he used to look after and he complained [unclear] and the leader of the camp was a regimental sergeant major [unclear] during some [unclear] and he had the badge at the back of the camp because [unclear] artillery [unclear] once and they always wore the at the back [unclear] he’s a camp leader but, you see, he outer perimeter [unclear] look at the people strolling and on a Sunday afternoon in the summer, I was looking and also he was looking [unclear] and former [unclear] and they had a dance round there and you could study, got to night school and [unclear] did a bit of that but [unclear] a bit smoking and could have a bit of walk now and again, you know, yeah, waiting for the news every night how far the Russians had got, how far, yeah, it was an experience, but as I say, really [unclear] one thing trying to get [unclear] more to do a book on the great escape or something but it was written by the one of them Tornado pilots or navigator who got shot down and of course [unclear] the forty’s war was lighter and he [unclear] but [unclear] I can’t read properly although I do a lot of reading. I met a German air force officer and he stopped and talked to us, spoke perfectly English and he said he was sorry for what we’ve been treated and he got us for that night, he got us in his barracks kind of place, like a German naffy, we [unclear], we could eat a German eat [unclear] in their naffy and he got us some brickets to put on the stove and there was straw on the floor, pallet on the floor, and pack of ten or twenty Polish cigarettes [unclear] concession [unclear] for what we’ve been through and we’ve be going through cause that was a [unclear] German, I remember I loved to know where we went and how many miles w covered, I never got to know that [unclear] laughing but I was a bit more serious on that and of course I combed me hair and do myself up but when our working party went out that was the main gates past the office where all the girls worked, checking identities and that cause look at your photo and, you know, oh that’s not you, you’re somebody else and used to be play the band and then march out and I knew a couple of guards, officers, forget what I was in, was in the cavalry, I was six foot, very look smart when I went out and that was to intimidate the Germans cause I looked a real scruffy lad. I think it was on the route to, perhaps on the route to Lamsdorf and they put us in a waiting room and there was all German soldiers in their uniform sitting, all [unclear] drinking and eating but we had to head up the corner, was about half a dozen or more of us and I remember the pipes was on, was warm in there, I mentioned it was warm and this one German, he says, we’ll make you sweat before long, you know, make it hot for you, always remember that, we were there cornered up in the corner, no sitting at the tables, long long waiting [unclear] the station in the waiting room, no, they wouldn’t let us sit at the table, on the chairs [unclear] on the floor and when they took us to one Sunday lunch on they took us to get on the train to go to across to this camp, all the Dutch people was crowding round us cause we stood there in a circle, was guards there with the rifles just waiting for the train to come and the Dutch people would inquisitive, you know, and I was given just a [unclear] and laughing at the Germans backs, you know, [unclear] that them kind of things, you could see [unclear] definitely.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank George Hextell, Warrant Officer, from Squadron 51 for his recording on the 4th of January 2016 at one thirty. Once again, thank you again.
GH: Right.
MJ: And that was one hour and
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Interview with George Hextell
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-01-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHextellGJE160104
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:55:04 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Hextell joined the RAF as a flight engineer and flew operations with 51 Squadron on Halifaxes. After being shot down over Holland, he became a prisoner of war. Gives a detailed account of how his capture, imprisonment and liberation. Describes various episodes from the POW camp Stalag VIIIB: living conditions; food barter; witnessing an attempted escape.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
Poland
Netherlands
France--Dieppe
Poland--Łambinowice
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1945
51 Squadron
aircrew
Dulag Luft
final resting place
flight engineer
flight mechanic
ground crew
Halifax
mechanics engine
mine laying
prisoner of war
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Padgate
RAF Snaith
RAF St Athan
recruitment
shot down
Spitfire
Stalag 8B
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/939/11298/AMackieGA171222.1.mp3
e9ca13049823098df01cd69c65a59715
Dublin Core
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Title
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Mackie, George
George Alexander Mackie
G A Mackie
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with George Mackie (1920 - 2020, 855966 Royal Air Force) with his log books, diary extract, list of operations, battle order and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 15 and 214 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mackie, GA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GM: In that silence, revulsion of what Bomber Command did and a claim for what Bomber Command did, were in that silence, that trivial monument in Green Park is for the benefit of the multi-millionaires that erected it, in [unclear] in Flanders, every name of the dead is inscribed in stone, the only names inscribed in stone at Green Park are the millionaires names, the rest are painted, this cheap, cheap gesture on the part of about half a dozen millionaires, so, if you want to carry on with that knowledge of my opposition to monuments, I’d be
CB: That’s fine. Did you go to the opening of that? Were you invited to it?
GM: Of course not [laughs]. I wouldn’t be seen dead near that monument.
CB: Did they invite you though?
GM: No.
CB: Right.
GM: Very glad they didn’t. I wrote against it. It’s also a hideous piece of architecture. So, let’s talk about the war
CB: OK, we’ll do that, I need to be able to. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 22nd of December 2017. We are in Stamford in Lincolnshire, talking to George Mackie about his experiences of life and the RAF. So, what are your first recollections of life, George?
GM: I can’t remember. I think
CB: You were born in Cupar, in Scotland
GM: Yes, and I was in my teens, was waiting for the war to begin.
CB: Right.
GM: It began and I wanted to fly so I presented myself in Dundee at the recruiting office. On Monday because the war had started on a Sunday but nothing happened for weeks until I went back to Dundee school of art and then I was called down to a place in the Midlands for medical which lasted two days, Warrington and I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940 and sent to Babbacombe near Torquay for a month or six weeks square bashing which I thoroughly enjoyed, squad of fifty people being drilled,
CB: Yeah
GM: And from there [unclear] Cambridge, St John’s college, lectures on navigation, meteorology and so on, contrast to Babbacombe and from Cambridge again a contrast to Stoke-on-Trent to begin flying on Magisters, very difficult conditions for flying because there was no horizon. A horizon is very necessary for learning to fly and there was none, was just smoke and no one said the absence of horizon is going to be difficult, so we thought we were [unclear] and but I got through. From Stoke-on-Trent to Cranfield which is a very inconspicuous place compared to today and we flew Oxfords and I started liking flying for the first time. I remember engine failure at a thousand feet [unclear] the fuel and diving down to [unclear] the fuel that was good, good stuff, that was exciting. And from Cranfield onto Wellingtons, a place twenty five miles south of Cambridge whose name escaped me, flying Wellingtons, one day a Stirling through across at a thousand feet, they were very silent, Stirlings, compared to other aircraft, they were huge, very impressive and I went straight to the adjutant and said, I want to go to the Stirling squadron, now, further or not, that had any bearing on the final decision I don’t know but the point was I was posted from the Wellingtons to 15 Squadron at Wyton, one of two squadrons with Stirlings and I have almost one thousand five hundred hours flying in Stirlings which I think is higher than anyone else. You have to switch thing off [unclear]
CB: That’s ok.
GM: So, there I was in 15 Squadron during 1941 and what I didn’t know was how appalling the mess was that Bomber Command was in, we was sent off solo, there was no such thing as a bomber stream, we went off fifteen minute intervals trying to find a target in Germany, we were hopeless at navigation, we were, my navigator had a sextant to try and navigate with, can you imagine?
CB: I’ve used it [laughs]
GM: We weren’t hitting targets
CB: Right
GM: And by the beginning of 1942 the retrenchment of Bomber Command and I was posted to a newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit to train pilots on the new four-engined aircraft, the Stirlings were just coming in and mostfully I was at Waterbeach for eighteen months in which time I only did three ops, they were the thousand bomber raids and I didn’t go back on ops until the Autumn of 1943 in 214 Squadron, so my eighteen months in Waterbeach was a wonderful period of learning to fly the Stirling cause until you instruct on an aircraft you don’t know it and I got to know the Stirling intimately, the most peculiar airplane, take-off, particularly take-off, the talk from the four engines plus the fact that the rudder was out of action until the tail was up in the slipstream meant that the take-off had a colossal urge to veer right off the runway, so the first thing you did was to put the stick fully forwards and open the throttles diagonally, now in Mark I Stirlings, the throttles were parallel, topped by large bulbs, large knobs, which my hand could not encompass
CB: Right
GM: So it was quite tricky trying to open the throttled diagonally nor could my legs reach the rudder bar because they were too short so I had to stuff a parachute behind me to reach the rudder bar so that couple with the Stirlings own eccentricities made flying the aircraft rather tricky. That I got to tell [unclear] sort of course, switch off.
CB: The Stirling was a Marmite type airplane, was it? People either loved it or hated it?
GM: What is Marmite?
CB: You either love it or hate it.
GM: Oh, I loved it because I survived in it and it was [unclear] in design, it was made to be, it was supposed to be the [unclear] version of the Sunderland flying boats with a wing span of a hundred and ten feet, in the event the wingspan was cut down to ninety-nine feet to enter peacetime hangars which were a hundred feet wide, of course, most of the maintenance was done outside anyway, day and night, and that made the aircraft most peculiar, a huge undercarriage and the angle of take-off was absurd
CB: Well, you were sitting twenty-eight feet above the ground, weren’t you?
GM: Well, yes.
CB: So that meant the tail was very low in comparison with the
GM: And until the tail was up, the rudder didn’t work
CB: Yeah, that’s interesting
GM: The [unclear] was switched
CB: Yeah. What sort of speed would you have to get to, in order for the tail plane to get up?
GM: Oh, maybe fifty
CB: Right. And then, when you got to V2, what would you be taking off at?
GM: Oh, ninety?
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Right, yeah, oh, one [unclear]
GM: Well, a hundred with bombs
CB: Yeah
GM: A hundred and ten, it depends, it depends on the aircraft, they varied quite a bit
CB: Right
GM: And from Stirling to Stirling
CB: Right. As we were talking about the HCU, what condition were the planes in at HCU, Stirlings?
GM: They were all second hand, they were all ex operational, the groundcrews worked twenty four hours a day, we didn’t give them sufficient credit for what they did, we took them for granted, I’m sure you’ll find this a refrain from aircrew, we took them for granted.
CB: And did, what was the reliability like, as they were clapped out?
GM: Oh, various having an engine failure, no, the Hercules engine was extremely good
CB: You mentioned thousand bomber raids, three of those or three ops to [unclear]?
GM: Well the thousand one which has gone down in history
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a [unclear]. I remember standing by the Stirling while the Wellingtons were going out, dozens and dozens and dozens at about a thousand feet climbing. When we took off, I mean, across the North Sea, you could see a long distance away Cologne bombing, a clear night and we got to the target, we were towards the end of the raid, it was an excellent opposition, next to no searchlights, next to no flak and I had a telescope, I remember trying to identify Cologne through this telescope, we finally got the [unclear] bombed, it was an absolutely easy job, operation but militarily of no significance, psychologically yes
CB: We’ll stop for a mo. So, the reason that the Lancaster and the Halifax didn’t have the yawring problem same was because their [unclear] were
GM: Because they had two rudders
CB: Two rudders
GM: Directly in the slipstream
CB: In the slipstream, yeah, whereas yours was part of the fuselage so it was blanked off
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. You mentioned that early on in your ops you flew as second pilot, what was the
GM: Everyone did
CB: Right
GM: Was standard until in 1942 as part of the re-organisation of the Bomber Command was a man called Peirse, was before Harris,
CB: Right
GM: a disaster, a disaster of a man, I can’t tell you how badly organised Bomber Command was in 1941
CB: So how it operate there then?
GM: Where?
CB: In 1941, how was it operating on operations?
GM: Well,
CB: They didn’t use bomber streams, so what did they do?
GM: Well, we went off at endurance, I should write this down
CB: You should, yeah. You’re going to get this back as a written testament anyway
GM: Mercifully Harris took over and he at least organised things, although he finished up there being a quite psychopathic about bombing German cities, that was, you know, in terms of military advantage it was a crazy, compared to what the Americans were doing
CB: So, with Peirse, can I go just back to Peirse? With, you took off at intervals and
GM: Very few of us, I mean, a maximum effort by Stirlings squadron in 1941 would be say half a dozen aircraft?
CB: Out of
GM: Half a dozen
CB: Out of how many in the squadron?
GM: Well, maybe ten and four only on serviceable
CB: Right
GM: I mean, compared to late, the late war, two Lancaster squadron were maybe forty, fifty aircraft
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a form of the fulfilment of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah, a Lancaster squadron would typically have at least twenty, wouldn’t it?
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. But in your day, with the Stirlings, much less
GM: The Stirlings was electrical and it was a nightmare to keep serviceable
CB: Eh?
GM: Everything was electrical and nothing but short, short brothers
CB: Short brothers and short circuits. What was the most common reason for them going U.S.?
GM: I don’t know. We took, I took no interest, I just put the thing U.S. and that was [unclear]
CB: So, early in the war, you were still, you were using flight engineers on the aircraft.
GM: Oh yes
CB: And they were busy dealing with
GM: Oh chiefly petrol, tanks, we had fourteen tanks so they kept on manoeuvring the petrol, two tanks for take-off and then after [unclear] minutes changed the tanks and also I believe the flight engineer held the throttles and things like that, never in my time
CB: Right
GM: I did it all, get airborne, get the throttles fully open, undercarriage up, up,
CB: Electrical undercarriage as well, not hydraulic
GM: Seems as they were [unclear] retract
CB: Yeah
GM: If it retracted. If it didn’t retract, it had to be done by hand, it took about fifteen minutes, yeah
CB: Who would do the winding?
GM: Oh, anybody, not the pilot
CB: Right. So, initially, your first fifteen ops, you said were as second pilot, then you became the captain after that
GM: I did two as a captain and then I was posted off ops, as were quite a few of us
CB: Yeah
GM: To become instructors
CB: Right
GM: At the newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit and as I said, I was there for eighteen months
CB: Yes
GM: Before going back on ops and when I did go back on ops, I knew the Stirling aircraft, down to flying it, I mean, intimately, and it increased my chances of surviving my second tour of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: And in 214 Squadron I had the great good fortune to start flying fortresses in a hundred group
CB: Yeah
GM: Radar, anti-radar [unclear], we accompanied the bombers, carrying no bombs and if I were a German night fighter pilot and he’s a Stirling, a fortress full of electronics, and here the Lancaster full of bombs, and go for the Lancaster, so we had very few fatalities on 214 Squadron with Fortresses
CB: Because they knew they didn’t carry a bomb load
GM: There’s a piece of paper with the rotors
CB: Yeah. Here we are. So, we’ve got a piece of paper with your ops on and then
GM: There’s the Fortress losses
CB: Yeah
GM: There’s the Stirling losses
CB: Right, yeah. So how different was the Fortress to fly?
GM: The Fortress was child’s play, the perfect aircraft, from mass production for mass produced pilots, the Stirling was the worst possible aircraft for mass produced pilots, it was like something unique, the Fortress, you pushed the throttles open, the throttles were perfectly attuned to your hand and it just took off like a dream and landed like a dream, child’s play, perfect for formation flying, stable, very stable, the Stirling wasn’t, the Stirling was agile, frisky,
CB: Well, the Fortress was designed in the concept of formation box flying
GM: It was designed for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: And it was perfect for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: It didn’t want to do anything but [unclear] flying
CB: And on the Fortress, the B-17, did you fly with a co-pilot there as well?
GM: Occasionally
CB: But not normally
GM: [unclear] second pilot just for one or two trips, for experience, the idea of doing fifteen as a second pilot was out by 1942
CB: Yeah. Because of the HCU
GM: Was useless
CB: Yeah. The HCU system dealt with that, HCU
GM: Yeah
CB: So when people joined the Stirlings, they, you said they were difficult to take-off, was there a high accident rate associated with that?
GM: Hundreds.
CB: Which did it, it bent the aeroplane but did it, were there fatalities linked to that or just?
GM: No, just crashed, swing and take-off
CB: What was the best thing about the Stirling?
GM: Agility, agile, remarkable, remarkable manoeuvrability, unbelievable for an aircraft that size. I, mastered a stall turn, which is going up like this, can you imagine a large four-engine aircraft at this angle? And kicking the rudder bar stalled, I got quite a reputation for it at Waterbeach.
CB: Was this proving a point or because it was exciting?
GM: Just showing what the Stirling could do, stall turn, quite remarkable
CB: So, a steep climb and then kick the rudder
GM: Yeah. It had a very bad reputation, didn’t carry more than two thousand pounds weight of bombs, I mean, because of the bomb containers
CB: The size of the them
GM: What the Lancaster does was quite stupefying, the weight [unclear]
CB: Yes
GM: Stupefying, nothing in the world like it
CB: Yeah
GM: At the time
CB: Yeah
GM: I mean, Britain did lead the war [unclear], not like today leaving Europe
CB: What was the crew’s reaction to the, your crew in 15 Squadron, how well did they work together?
GM: They were [unclear], various of camaraderie
CB: What were they frightened of mainly?
GM: Death
CB: But the aircraft or
GM: Death,
CB: Or just
GM: Death,
CB: The raid?
GM: I mean, the whole squadron was infected by fear
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh, I think so. Cause when you are not doing anything positive
CB: Yeah
GM: Just being exposed
CB: Cause this is part of, is it, what you were talking about earlier, the disorganisation of Bomber Command meant that it worked in a very inefficient way
GM: [unclear] If you look at the dates of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: Quite absurd, the Stirlings just in service. July in 1941 the 6th and the 7th, then the 12th and the 23rd, 25th and then a month before August 25, then between August 25 and September 19th, October the 12th, the 24th, why weren’t Stirlings used more often? Yes, it’s frightful indictment
CB: What was your conclusion about why they were not used more often?
GM: Oh, we didn’t conclude anything, we didn’t even know the morale was bad, how do you know that morale was bad at the time? You don’t know
CB: Right
GM: You think, this was my first operational squadron
CB: Yes
GM: For all I knew this was normal
CB: Right
GM: In that respect, I know that morale was bad
CB: So, can you talk me through a raid, starting with the briefing? How would this evolve over the course of the night?
GM: Well, briefing didn’t change, it got more complicated
CB: So the briefing was everybody together in the ops room to hear the target and the route, is that right?
GM: Yeah. Well, that didn’t change, only towards the end of the war there were half a dozen streams instead of one, well, in fact, there were no streams to begin with, just [unclear] the target and the navigator worked it out how to get there
CB: So in the ops room, in the briefing room you would be told what the target was and the route.
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Was the route, the navigator had to work it out but was the route straight or was it?
GM: I think it was, I think it was [unclear] the navigator to work out how to get there
CB: Oh, right.
GM: Which is part of the amateurness of the role
CB: Yeah. So, as the war developed then, none of the raids would have a direct route to the target. So in your day initially, what was the state then?
GM: Well, I suppose, I suppose so. I suppose we knew where the concentration of searchlights were, but I don’t know. Later on in the war, you not only had different streams of bombers but you had dummy streams which 214 Squadron did, we set off on spoofs, half a dozen Fortresses charring out Window
CB: Right. Yeah
GM: To simulate five hundred bombers, that was quite important, quite a safe job too
CB: It was safe because the Window secured the view of your aircraft, did it?
GM: Well, the night fighters were after these real streams
CB: Right
GM: And we didn’t go far into Germany, we just went across Holland and then turned back home. 214 Squadron was so lucky, so fortunate with its Fortresses, that was a stroke of gigantic luck being posted to 214 Squadron
CB: So, the crew is the same, was it? As the one [unclear] flown in
GM: The one [unclear] to 214 Squadron
CB: Pardon?
GM: We were a mixed lot, New Zealand, Peruvian. My flight engineer was called Pedro Honeyman. Obviously of Scottish descent. Didn’t keep up with any of them. We had extremely good adjutant to 214 Squadron called George Wright, what George had done before the war I do not know, but he loved being adjutant to a bomber squadron, the aircrew, he loved the aircrew and they really good for us, so before my ops came to an end, I said to George, when I finish, I want to go on Transport Command. [unclear] Before I got a posting to Transport Command where I finished the war. And that was before I was sent to India and North Africa. It’s interesting. George Wright was seen after the war in 1951. My wife-to-be and I were on our way to Paris and we went into the 1951 exhibition on the South Bank and who was selling tickets? George Wright. [unclear] come down for you. I went back to art school
CB: When were you demobbed? When you were demobbed?
GM: Yeah
CB: In 1946.
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. How long were you at art school?
GM: I did my fourth year at Edinburgh College of Arts, post diploma fifth year, then a year of travelling scholarship was six years
CB: How did you finance yourself in those days?
GM: Oh, paid for, paid for. People don’t remember but we were privileged, we got no fees at university, a grant, I had a pension, three pounds, ten schillings a week, [unclear] for ten schillings a week, so I had three quid to spend, were privileged
CB: You received an RAF pension because
GM: No
CB: Was it?
GM: I suppose it was
CB: Yes, because you started the war when it started, when, at the beginning of the war
GM: Yeah, I suppose it was RAF
CB: So, in that context, you weren’t VR, were you? You were RAF
GM: I was RAF VR
CB: Oh, you were VR
GM: Yeah
CB: Right
GM: I’ve got the four-volume history of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah
GM: Which you really ought to know
CB: I’ll just stop there for a mo. Yes. The History of Bomber Command
GM: Harris, he is in this book
CB: Did he?
GM: Oh yes
CB: Noble Frankland, and who is the other chap?
GM: Sir Charles Webster
CB: Yes
GM: They’re both historians. Yes, you promised me your book, your [unclear] for it
CB: I shall put, I shall get hold of it, cause these are really important and this links together with your testimony
GM: You [unclear] and your job, you must have it
CB: I do, yes, need it. They’ve got it at Lincoln.
GM: Have they?
CB: Yeah
GM: It’ll be in the university library
CB: Yes
GM: Or it should be
CB: Yeah. Well, we’ll check actually as you come to ask. Can I just go back
GM: I was once in publishing so I can get things at cost
CB: Ah, right. Can I go back to your comments about 15 Squadron? You said that the crew effectively lived in fear all the time, the fear of being shot down or the fear of the aircraft not performing?
GM: No, the fear of not coming back.
CB: Right.
GM: I think that was general, the morale was low
CB: Yes
GM: When morale is low, you lose confidence
CB: Yes. And what was the RAF doing about it in your perspective?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nothing
CB: And what was the squadron commander doing to get together?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nor the Wing Commander. Everyone was tainted
CB: Yeah
GM: In my recollection. The crew I trained with, what’s the name of that place?
CB: At Wyton, oh, at Bassingbourn
GM: Bassingbourn
CB: Yes. On the Wellingtons
GM: Two pilots, flight engineer, navigator and bomb, gunners, I trained the guy called Metaxi, M-E, M-A
CB: Yeah
GM: So, when we got to Wyton a line was drawn under MA and I went as second pilot to an established crew,
CB: On Stirlings
GM: Metaxi crew went to a newly promoted captain, he had no training with the new captain, they disappeared on their first op, the first op, no training, Pierce, group captain wing commander, why? Of course they went down on their first op, they didn’t know each other. That was my introduction to operational flying. Nobody mentioned it.
CB: No. And in the ops in those days, you went off as individual crews, you said, rather than in any kind of orderly fashion. What was the process of finding the target?
GM: Looking at the ground [laughs].
CB: In the dark?
GM: What you could see.
CB: At what height were you flying in the Stirling?
GM: As high as you could go. Which was sixteen, seventeen
CB: On a god day
GM: Right down to twenty. Oh, what a business.
CB: And how did you, when you returned, you were debriefed by the intelligence officer, were you?
GM: Yes, yes.
CB: And what would you have to tell him?
GM: [unclear] we always thought we bombed the target of course [unclear] the first target I properly identified was Cologne, the thousand bomber raid,
CB: And at that stage you were at the HCU. At that stage you were at the HCU, weren’t you? For the thousand bomber raid
GM: Yes, yes, yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Little diversion from training
CB: Yes
GM: The following day you, circuits and landings, circuits and landings again, I don’t know how many landings I did in the Stirling, it must be ten to hundreds
CB: How did you feel about the student pilot flying it?
GM: Oh, they all arrived in a state of great anxiety, the Stirling had a very bad reputation and so the first thing you did was to show them what it was in the air and then the New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans, all nationalities, the most democratic outfit Bomber Command became, I wouldn’t have missed it
CB: What was the most exciting experience you had on operations or in the HCU?
GM: Well, the most dangerous experience I had was five hours in icing cloud trying to get to Hamburg in which 1651 Unit lost four out of nine aircraft in one night through weather and that was touch and go in cumulus cloud.
CB: So the icing cloud should never have been entered but how was it
GM: We should never have set off
CB: Exactly
GM: Again it was a cock-up and no one of course was never held responsible but to lose four out of nine is quite a shock. But the following day, take off and landings, take off and landings
CB: So that goes back to the point about debriefing, there was a met man who did part of the briefing, was there?
GM: That, the North Sea was [unclear] of clouds and of course we dropped the odd bomb to try and get more height, couldn’t and that was just flying skill to survive that night and one of the survivors was Frazer Barron, to finish that was nineteen ops, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, he lost his life later on of course, he was smaller than me, so how he could get the rudder bar I don’t know. Frazer Barron, one of the so-called Barron
CB: Barn Brothers
GM: Barnel Barnes [unclear]
CB: So, when the crew went back to 15 Squadron, you talked about the low morale, in the off-duty times what happened, what did people do? Cause you are all NCOs in the aircraft, are you? At that stage
GM: We did nothing. After time boring, there was no overall intelligence trying to further our training as bomber aircrew, it’s just, it was, the whole thing was inept. You know, we were losing the war like mad
CB: And what were the senior officers doing?
GM: I never saw them, I was in the sergeant’s mess. I mean, we arrived at Wyton by train, a bus from the station to the airfield, no welcome, put into such and such a fight, didn’t meet the flight commander, no one would tell you hello, this is 15 Squadron, this is what we do, we just arrived, oh, dear, oh dear, that was bad, it was shocking [unclear]
CB: Wyton was an expansion period airfield, so what was the accommodation like?
GM: Nissen hut. We took off from Alconbury, Wyton had no runways, so we flew the aircraft at Alconbury where it was bombed up, and then we went back to [unclear] and got briefly briefed at Wyton and then bus to the station light. I remember the bus going through Huntingdon, people going about their business, going into pubs and so on, where am I going?
CB: Yeah
GM: 21 squadron was quite different cause the war had been going on for years by that time, September 1943, Stirlings would have been taken off German targets, again the luck I had, being posted to a Stirling squadron cause they were being withdrawn and then we heard this extraordinary rumour going on [unclear] and the rumour proved to be true till, we got an American pilot with half a dozen landings and off we went solo, captain of a Fortress, throat microphone, all up to date
CB: Yes
GM: Electric flying suit, all up to date, American
CB: The whole crew had the electric flying suit, did they?
GM: I don’t know about the crew, I took the crew for granted. I hadn’t a warrant officer, my navigator was a flying officer and that was my two fingers up to the system, you see and it didn’t last long, I was a commissioned officer within weeks
CB: We’ll stop now. How often did you get hit?
GM: Once, oh, well, the aircraft got hit more than once of course
CB: Did it?
GM: I got hit personally once, over Leverkusen
CB: Oh.
GM: To an [unclear] squadron to Leverkusen to [unclear] as a souvenir, one of the aircraft came home with shrapnel quite often
CB: So what was the wound that you experienced?
GM: It was?
CB: What wound did you get?
GM: I didn’t get wounded, didn’t even draw blood. Spent shrapnel upper left arm. Colossal braw. If I hadn’t been strapped in, I’d be off my seat.
CB: Was the explosion in the aircraft or just outside?
GM: No, the shrapnel, piece of shrapnel. Flak
CB: Did that hit you hard?
GM: Flak I suppose.
CB: Yeah
GM: Didn’t even draw blood. The arm was swollen of course
CB: Yeah
GM: And that was nothing
CB: What about other members of the crew, did they get?
GM: Nothing
CB: Nobody
GM: No. A nasty surprise flying along in the black, suddenly shrapnel [unclear], flak and this enormous bash which as I say, would have got me out of my seat but for being strapped in
CB: Amazing. This was in the Fortress, was it? Or in the Stirling?
GM: Probably Fortress.
CB: There was a bigger crew in the Fortress, so?
GM: Yes.
CB: That was more gunners.
GM: The Fortress crew
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Have a look at that. So, with the Fortress, you, the Americans flew with two pilots but you flew with one pilot in the Fortress in the RAF fashion
GM: Yes, yes. They flew by day, of course
CB: Yes
GM: What the Americans did was remarkable I mean, seeing them go down, we saw them going down in darkness
CB: Yeah. Did you get any planes exploding next to you?
GM: There were things, in Bomber Command we believed in a thing called Scarecrows
CB: Ah, yes
GM: Have you heard this word?
CB: Yes
GM: But there were no such things, they were actual aircraft and we kidded ourselves, another Scarecrow and some could be very close
CB: So, the Scarecrow notionally was an enormous shell when actually it was a German fighter firing upwards with Schrage Musik
GM: [unclear] bomber going down in flames
CB: Yeah
GM: But mercifully we didn’t know. I was never attacked by a night fighter and that may be part of the fact that wherever over dangerous territory I was endlessly weaving the aircraft, endless, to give the rear gunner [unclear] a vision of the area, a vision
CB: You did that on both aircraft
GM: Oh yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Oh yes
CB: Same technique
GM: Endless, gentle weave
CB: And how many reports of air sickness did you get from the crew?
GM: Oh, never. Weaving, that’s nothing, you don’t even know you’re doing it, didn’t know I was doing it, but it’s so far more.
CB: Yeah
GM: I’ve heard a Lancaster sitting a straight and level being shot at, not least by a member of who, by ex-member of my crew, he was shot down later on and we were attacked and the pilot froze, froze, that’s why we were shot down
CB: Froze over the target or [unclear]?
GM: Night fighter attacked, there was no evasive action team
CB: I see, right. But you were trained in the corkscrew?
GM: Oh yes
CB: And could you do the corkscrew with the Fortress or not?
GM: Yes, nothing like [unclear] nothing like this
CB: A big aeroplane
GM: Nothing like this, cleverly, let me have that logbook, thanks,
US: That’s the last, this is the first one. Is this the one you want?
CB: No, he’s just checking
US: Do you want to have a look at it now?
GM: Hey?
US: Do you want to have a look inside it?
CB: I’ll just stop there a minute.
US: [unclear] Air Force for you.
GM: We flew an aircraft from East Anglia to Belfast
US: Right.
GM: You get a cask of Guinness for a party. When you think of the cost of that pint of Guinness
US: [unclear]
CB: Amazing. But you did need that training experience, didn’t you? Was this from the HCU or the squadron?
GM: From the squadron
CB: Yeah
GM: The things were so relaxed. I had the memory of the friend of my father’s came down from Scotland, Ed [unclear], wanted to go up in a Stirling so I just said, an aircraft needing a flight test such and such took off in fifteen minutes
CB: What was the reaction of your family to your flying as a pilot in Bomber Command?
GM: My father and I didn’t communicate, ever.
CB: And you mother’s reaction wouldn’t be cause she
GM: Stepmother
CB: Stepmother, I meant
GM: Stepmother, no communication
CB: Right, ok. Any other members of the family you spoke to? Just stopping there again. Because your father had been in the trenches.
GM: Yeah, I mean Bomber Command is admired beyond reason, the worst that could happen was five minutes in [unclear] alive going down, think of the trenches, think of my father survived after three years in the trenches compared to what I had, Bomber Command was lucky. We lived well
CB: Yeah
GM: You know, it’s over exalted but easy, easier, the troops after the invasion going up through Holland far, far worse than Bomber Command was. I didn’t see a dead body. My father not only saw dead bodies, he saw the remains all around for years, no wonder he didn’t speak about it. Bomber Command too much talk saving your presence. No, it wasn’t all that difficult, it wasn’t.
CB: Now, when you went to 214, you had a completely different crew there,
GM: Yeah
CB: Because you’d come from the HCU
GM: I inherited a crew
CB: Oh, did you? Right, so how well did they gel together?
GM: After
US: You know, I can’t remember
CB: Anyway, professionally as a crew
GM: There was a romantic tosh spoken about Bomber Command crews how they gelled, how they drank together, how they did this together, how they did that, I suspect in many cases that just wasn’t true, wasn’t true in my case
CB: But it also varied, it would appear depending on whether it was an entirely NCO crew or a mixed commissioned NCO crew, in terms of them socialising.
GM: No, in my experience, socialising went on between commissioned and non-commissioned, there was no sense of division. No, no, Bomber Command was very democratic, a great mixture of people, no, no, there was no bullshit. No, no, none. I remember one parade, I can’t remember where, there was no discipline, in my experience, there was self
CB: Self-regulation
GM: Self-engendered discipline, there was no bullshit, no, none. You did your job in the air, you were left alone. Me, when I put that Tiger Moth on the [unclear], I didn’t even get a rap on [unclear]
CB: So, when was that? When were you
GM: Waterbeach
CB: Right. So, what happened there, you borrowed it, did you?
GM: I was in the mess, I had this aircraft flying over and landing and [unclear] and I went down to the flight centre, it was the wing commander giving ATC cadets a touch of flying experience and he saw me and he said, hey, Mackie, you take over. Well, I’d never flown a Tiger Moth and I took over. I took off with the first cadet, flew around and landed after a, a second cadet started getting too cocky, anyway, that’s how I got to [unclear]. It was a lovely summer’s evening and I was quite excited to land, there was earth, [unclear], trees and this great big wide river, flat, not a ripple on its surface, inviting, irresistible, I did a perfect landing, tail down
CB: Yeah. Who was in the back?
GM: I was on the front. I think, we passed over the back, we got to the surface and he was saying, do you mind, look at my dress to dance tomorrow! And I said, you shut up! So and so, I got worries of my own now, the wing commander’s aeroplane
CB: So, were you actually practising an emergency landing or did you feel that you
GM: No, I got in a high-speed stall
CB: So, what were you doing in your manoeuvre at the time?
GM: [unclear] trees
CB: So you were really low, you were going round the trees
GM: Breaking the law and all sorts of things
CB: That’s right
GM: But I didn’t know you had to increase the throttles, [unclear] control, high fifteen tons, you’re supposed to increase the engine revs
CB: Right. In the Tiger Moth
GM: Cocky
CB: But you would have had to do it in the Magister anyway
GM: I don’t remember doing high speeds, [unclear] the Magister
CB: No? So what was the attraction in the river?
GM: The flatness
US: Yeah
CB: But the people, what about the people in the river?
GM: They [unclear] spectacle
CB: So you were busy just
GM: You’re alright? You’re alright? I said, yes, I’m alright, [unclear] job trying to get the parachute on board the, onto dry land, the weight of it [unclear] water
CB: And they helped you pull the plane into the side as well?
GM: No, the plane was just right in the middle of the river, I was completely submerged
CB: And what was the result of this then?
GM: Not, no, nothing happened. I was a confident Stirling pilot, that was the important thing
CB: Right
GM: This, the Tiger Moth just an aberration
CB: So the wing commander said
GM: Nothing. He wasn’t even crossed
CB: And your logbook said
GM: [unclear] somewhere, he was a very good man, he was the best wing commander I ever had, I had some poor wing commanders, he was particularly good, he was called Menaul and he finished up in charge of atomic bombing tests in the South Pacific just after the war and he lived quite near to where my elder daughter lives and she kept on saying, why don’t you look him up? And I kept on saying, no, no, and I wish I had. M-E-N-A-U-L, he’s a good man. I had the worst commander in 214 Squadron called McGlinn M-C-G-L-I-N-N, he didn’t take to me, part because I was a warrant officer I think and froze the normal distances of promotion and once the aircrew were altogether for a talk by him and he suddenly, said, Mackie, what does that mean? And he pronounced a long German word, you know, a multi syllable, multi [unclear] and I said, I don’t know, Sir, and I hope I never do, the squadron erupted. This is still a German prisoner of war camp name, I said what? Anyway, that was my come up and stand up to the wing commander. No, he wasn’t a good type.
CB: So, you reached warrant officer and then when you went to the HCU, you were still a warrant officer, were you?
GM: I became warrant officer at Waterbeach, yes
CB: At the HCU
GM: Not automatic [unclear], sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer,
CB: Yeah
GM: A good rank, taken miles
CB: Absolutely
GM: Have you heard that expression?
CB: Yeah
GM: Doesn’t exist [unclear] expression
CB: No. And your commissioning took place when you joined two, joined at 214?
GM: Having more than doubled the hours than any other pilot on the squadron then and the [unclear] ranking, it was this to the system, it was meant to be, I’d finished the war as [unclear] there was anything left [unclear] but they made me take commission
CB: Was McGlinn, this, this CO, was he part of
GM: The station commander intervened
CB: Ah!
GM: He saw, he told me, you’re taking commission, Mackie, which I knew was inevitable and [unclear] didn’t have to ask for it
CB: So what was the process that you went through for that?
GM: Nothing. A new uniform and that was it
CB: But they took you off somewhere for a briefing, did they? Or selection?
GM: I got five minutes
CB: Ah, right
GNM: At Mildenhall
CB: What did they have, a board of assessors?
GM: No, no, just one man, [unclear] after all be all the way as Mildenhall and all the way back for this formality, out of the comedy, tragicomedy
CB: So there you had the opportunity to move into the officer’s mess
GM: I had to and the airfield we shared with an American squadron and the first formal dinner evening took place, when I say formal, peacetime thing, towards the end of the war [unclear], towards the end of the German ascendancy and being the most junior officer, I had to give the royal toast and the toast to his, the president of the United States of America, not a single ring of having lost my [unclear] morale. No, there is one thing I want to emphasize, it was easy
CB: An easy war for you
GM: Easy war, an easy war for most of the crew, if you got shot down, five minutes. I mean, think about it, that’s quite a good way to go, five minutes.
CB: Did you come across Guinea pigs, who’d been burned?
GM: Yeah
CB: And how did they take to flying after being Guinea pigs?
GM: Well, I don’t know, I mean, well actually, I knew them, I met them, I saw them, never knew them personally
CB: Right
GM: But that was extreme. If you got killed, you got killed, in a burning aircraft, you know, you are going down. You see, in 15 Squadron, going out seven, half a dozen aircraft, one missing, that’s quite a lot of proportion, week after week, one again, one again, one again, one again.
US: It is here, Tiger Moth [laughs]
GM: Of course, nobody knew at the beginning of the war. Bomber Command did no night flying in peacetime
CB: No. Were your original ops with 15 Squadron in daylight or were they always at night?
GM: There were two daylight ops on Northern France with Spitfires and Hurricanes, protection. That was so-called circuses, supposed to engender combat between our fighters and their fighters, they never materialised, it’s a waste of time
CB: And how did you feel like flying in daylight bombing on a, in a Stirling?
GM: Well, glad that I missed it. By that time the RAF had learned the sense of not flying by day over Germany
CB: No
GM: To begin with, we thought we could do it with impunity, flying in formations of Wellingtons or, what’s the other aircraft?
CB: Or in Blenheims
GM: Blenheims. 50 percent loss, time after time, sheer incompetence, wasted for nothing, peacetime air force, but by [unclear] what a transformation in 1944, target could be identified and destroyed, terrifying, pinpointed by Mosquitoes, TIs, target indicators, and the [unclear] watching, watching, doing nothing
CB: So in your two and four, flying your B-17 Fortresses, what was the activity going on in your aircraft?
GM: I don’t know, I didn’t know, yeah, I took no interest
CB: What was it supposed to be doing?
GM: Jamming control, jamming communication between ground control and German night fighters, that was one thing, we carried a German speaking wireless op and in a minute he got on to this German night fighter frequency, he jammed it, I believe but there were other, we carried a [unclear] radar which is one reason why operational flying was so infrequent, it was the [unclear] in the world and constantly tinkering new this, new that, but it was so complex, I wasn’t interested. I was interested in one thing, survival.
CB: And these German speaking operators, did they tend to be of foreign origin or were they?
GM: They were German.
CB: On the aircraft?
GM: Yes. But I, when I looked back I missed, actually I should have been more interested in what they were and how they came to be aircrew in the RAF, they were perfect German speakers, I believe. Pedro Honeyman, how did he come to England from Peru? And no one charged him. Cause Honeyman is a Scottish name
CB: He was a signaller, was he? He was a signaller.
GM: He was my flight engineer
CB: Oh, flight engineer.
GM: We all smoked of course, like chimneys
CB: In the aircraft?
GM: Coming back, yes, once you’re over water, down to a thousand feet, open the window, switch off the oxygen, first cigarette, oh, the bliss, the bliss of that first cigarette
CB: So, for non-smokers, explain please what, why it was such an important thing
GM: Well, salvation,
US: You’re a non-smoker.
GM: You were over the North Sea, you’re at two thousand feet, in half an hour you can see the flashing beacons, you’re safe, you survived, you’re off the scaffold, that was why, and the nicotine in the blood stream. Oh, I was a confirmed smoker. I regret having, had to give it up, but I wish I hadn’t. My father smoked forty a day until his late eighties when he died. He had the right answer. Were you an ex-smoker?
CB: No.
GM: You’re both non-smokers?
US: I smoke
GM: What’s that? Pack?
US: Rolling.
GM: You’re rolling [unclear]. Oh yes, so did I. I used to have brown paper, cigarette papers, I’ve [unclear]
CB: What made you start smoking? Did you start because of the flying?
GM: No, before the war I started.
CB: Right. And what made you give up?
GM: Oh, slow asphyxiation. [unclear] for five before the war, the day’s ration. [sighs] Well, Chris
CB: So you, that’s really good. We’ll stop for a bit.
GM: Yeah. Fifty percent of Bomber Command aircrew died for nothing. There’s no way of proving it but that’s my feeling.
CB: Do you mean particularly in the early days, do you mean? Because it was so disorganised
GM: Yes, but it extended into the, towards the end of the war, how many aircrew did damage to Germany? One [unclear]. I’d have had been killed, the damage I had affected on Germany was minimal, minimal, at what expense?
CB: Well, in your two and four days with the Fortresses, you weren’t carrying any munitions, so any bombs.
GM: Were not very successful,
CB: Oh
GM: It was a colossal enterprise involving fighter squadrons, Halifaxes, Fortresses, but it never did enough damage, I suppose was expected. I mean the hundred fighter squadron used to go out at night and circle German airfields
CB: The Mosquitoes, the Mosquitoes did
GM: Yes
CB: Yes
US: Interesting
CB: Interdictors
GM: And they weren’t successful, I believe. And then Transport Command, when I think about the expense, six thousand feet all the way to Germany, straight to India, four days, bed and breakfast, North Africa, bed and breakfast, Palestine, bed and breakfast, Iraq, Karachi.
CB: And what were you flying in Transport Command?
GM: Stirlings, the Mark V, an extra ten miles an hour
CB: And you wouldn’t want to get there too quickly, with all that nice hospitality on the way, did you?
GM: Oh, just a routine bed and breakfast, you know.
CB: What could the Mark V Stirling carry? What could the Mark V Stirling carry?
GM: Sixteen passengers or so much freight, a lot of postal freight, you know, letters [unclear] was abroad
CB: So, did you enjoy that, overall?
GM: Oh yes
CB: How did you come to be posted to Transport Command after 214?
GM: I’ve told you, George Wright
CB: Yes, but in the mechanism of the system, it just automatically
GM: Well, George Wright got me posted to Transport Command
CB: Yeah, as the adjutant
GM: That was it
CB: Yeah. There’d be a less smaller crew there cause you didn’t need gunners, so what did you have?
GM: Oh, navigator and flight engineer
CB: And that was it. No signaller?
GM: Wireless op, possible, you see they were going a-begging, they weren’t needed
CB: No
GM: [unclear]
CB: How did you meet your wife and when?
GM: When did I meet her?
CB: Yes
GM: I don’t know the exact date although I can recount it in detail but I shan’t
CB: [laughs]
GM: My wedding was in [unclear], 1952 in the registry office in Scarborough, cost five quid, got back to Edinburgh that same day, that was the beginning of our marriage
CB: Where did you meet her in the first place?
GM: Edinburgh College of Arts
CB: Edinburgh College of Arts, right. After the war, in other words.
GM: Oh yes, oh yes,
CB: Yeah
GM: ’48 or ’49, the best thing I ever did.
CB: And how many children have you got? How many children do you have?
GM: Two daughters.
CB: Right. Local?
GM: Two daughters, two granddaughters, two great granddaughters. I don’t want any competition [laughs]. Let the name Mackie die
CB: And no brothers or sisters of yours? You have no brother or sister yourself?
GM: Well, no, my mother died after my birth
CB: Cause you were the first child, right
GM: And my stepmother had no children
CB: We’ll stop there. Post-war, what career did you follow?
GM: Well, I taught in a college of art for some years, I free-lanced, I became royal designer for industry, designing books for Edinburgh University Press, I am a member of the Royal Scottish Society of Painters and Water Colour, and now, I don’t know, that’s about it.
CB: So, how did you get down here, in Stamford?
GM: Retirement. Driving from London to Aberdeen, I took the wrong turn at Millhill roundabout, six bloody [unclear], following the A25, and then the A1, and Aberdeen seemed a long way away, roundabout, roundabout, roundabout. I came to a sign saying, Stamford, one mile and so help me. I turned off. [unclear] this is a wartime thing, I don’t know, a monumental thing to do, because it changed my life. The entry into Stamford from the south is the finest entrance to any town that I know.
CB: Yeah, past Burghley.
GM: It’s Extraordinary
CB: Yeah
GM: The George Hotel. So I kept on coming back and found a slum, I’ll let you see what it was like
CB: When is this, 1980?
GM: Yes
CB: Ah, right. It had just been neglected
GM: Completely
CB: Yeah
US: Of course, it’s a lovely building
CB: And you said it was affected by a fire behind it
GM: Oh, that was later on
CB: Ah
GM: When I saw it, I saw [unclear]. The fact is I made it. In Aberdeen I had a wonderful house with twenty, how many years? Twenty-four years there. Wonderful, wonderful. When it came to selling, it was valued forty eight. I said, nonsense, it’s worth seventy. I got in a week [laughs]. Forty-eight to seventy in 1980. And a bloody Scotch lawyer charges a thousand pounds for the convenience for half an hour’s work.
CB: That was a bit much, wasn’t it?
US: Yeah
GM: I had an interviewer here and told him what I thought, he said, I’ve never been spoken like this before, I said, well, it’s high time.
CB: Quite right.
GM: Bugger
CB: Yes
GM: A thousand pounds, in 1980
CB: That was a hell of a lot of money
GM: I mean, I sold it, I did the ad, I did the interviewing, I said, excessive, five hundred, even that, [unclear] enough, that’s a long time ago but still rankles
CB: Yeah
GM: Scotch avarice
CB: Quite right. But you never got the
GM: Anyway, then I could buy this and do tens of thousands of pounds on the house, new electricity, new walling, new this, new that, new [unclear], and it’s been a wonderful house for the family and [unclear] buggered up all went downhill
CB: When your wife became ill
GM: The worst possible conclusion. God, if he exists, is a master sadist. Oh, gentlemen, can I offer you anything now?
CB: I haven’t had anybody else criticize Bomber Command
GM: You haven’t?
CB: No. But that partly for the reason perhaps that you mentioned earlier which is that you were there right at the beginning, when Bomber Command was in a powerless state, and the leadership clearly, from what you said, was lacking severely. The bit I forgot to ask you about because it links quite well with the early comments you made about lack of morale, because this comes out of it in a way, what about LMF?
GM: Oh dear, LMF, how these initials frightened us. We didn’t quite know what it was all about, very effective
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh very, frightening words, frightening initials, and partially frightening because we didn’t quite know what it was. I only came across one [unclear], a commissioned officer, commissioned RAR cause he trained with me this man, the majority of us became sergeants, he became a pilot officer, [unclear] in a flying boat [unclear] blew a tool off and he had a history of early retirements
CB: A pilot?
GM: Pilot
CB: Yeah
GM: I never saw him again.
CB: Do you know where they sent him?
GM: He just vanished. But that was LMF. Poor man, is he still alive? The memory will be constant, he should have died.
CB: Yeah
GM: And of course, LMF was designed to make sure you died rather than anything else
US: That was on the doorbell
GM: Ah, thank you.
CB: What would you say it did to the, what effect did it have on the crew?
GM: Made them bloody sad, they wouldn’t be LMF. Tell me what lack of moral fiber, cowardice
US: Right
GM: Frightening initials. Till today
CB: Sure
GM: That was crude but that was effective and so unfair, it could [unclear] that someone that had done almost a tour and impact in, you know, he proved himself time and time and time again and you’d have reached the end of his [unclear] but LMF had no respect for that kind of achievement, oh, is cruel. We never talked about it. Never talked about it, never mentioned it. You must have found this is the constant in your interviews.
CB: Yes, I have, had a number of people talk about it
GM: Not mention saying what was mentioned
CB: Right, so, it’s been mentioned, yes, by several people
GM: Yeah
CB: And the effect on the crew
GM: Yeah
CB: Because it’s very unsettling
GM: Yeah
CB: And also the deterrent effect, the objective of deterrence
GM: It worked
CB: Yeah
GM: Yeah. Oh God, I’d have died rather than being labelled LMF, oh quite clearly
CB: So, he was commissioned and vanished but what was your perception of what would happen to the sergeants, if they were?
GM: What?
CB: What would happen to the sergeants if they were labelled LMF?
GM: They were stripped of rank of course and just vanished; I suppose. Anyway, I don’t know what happened to the commissioned officer, whether he was uncommissioned or I don’t know. The whole thing’s a mystery.
CB: Yeah
GM: Well, is it Chris?
CB: Yeah
GM: Sorry
CB: It’s alright.
GM: Well, you promised me that you will get access to these four volumes
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: It’s not the easiest of reading but it’s right up your street
CB: Oh yes, it is
GM: There’s a whole appendix, giving the details about how many bombs fell [unclear] explode for instance [unclear]
CB: Yeah
GM: The bombs were inefficient
CB: Yeah
GM: So many things were incompetent
CB: Yeah. It’s not as though it was new because they had a very high failure rate in the First World War
GM: Yes
CB: Of bombs and shells
GM: My father never once asked me about Bomber Command, very most peculiar, I envy sons who had a good relationship with their fathers,
CB: What was the main stumbling block would you say?
GM: Well, losing his wife when he did, that buggered him, buggered him. Small town [unclear], like his father before him, like his grandfather before him and I would have been the starter, if the tractor hadn’t come, the tractor saved me.
CB: What did the tractor do?
GM: Made [unclear] redundant, no horses, mean this [unclear] two or three [unclear] all gone
US: All gone
GM: My hometown is like, Stamford, you know, agricultural market town. Have you always lived in Stamford, nearby the airfields? [laughs]
CB: In the dark
GM: Yeah, training
CB: Right
GM: Waterbeach, we were sent to other airfields, you see, and I [unclear] all apologetic but five miles apart the circuits overlapping
CB: But it must have been quite difficult, how did you, coming back from an operation or any sortie, how did you identify your airfield in the dark?
GM: Well, the flashing beacons, the Germans knew them all, out, you know, two initials, they never changed, the Germans must have known them all. And the three searchlights intersecting at two thousand feet all over the place, oh God it was a, what a performance! What [unclear]!
CB: So every, when you returned, there was always the searchlight on,
GM: Oh yes
CB: Unless the Germans had followed the bomber stream in
GM: Oh yes, and that should help from the German point of view, why they didn’t do that more often? What an advantage to have their fighters come across
CB: It could’ve been a turkey shoot
GM: It would’ve been a massive one. And they did it, well, they did it, when I was training the Wellingtons it happened once and it scared the daylights out of me, trying to learn to fly and at the same time, knowing there is an enemy aircraft around. Bassinbourn?
CB: Yeah. So if
GM: They missed a great opportunity
CB: If there was a known interdictor, intruder, what did the airfields do, they turned off their lights, did they?
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Then, what did that leave you with?
GM: That never happened to me. No, there was no trouble getting home, I mean, finding one’s way, I mean
CB: Because of all these lights
GM: Oh, the, and you had the radio beams and things, you know
CB: Yes
GM: I took no interest in, QDEM or something
CB: Yeah, did you have DREM lighting as well? The DREM lighting round the airfield?
GM: Yes, of course, I suppose so
CB: They do
GM: Round again that was nothing, I mean, you know, running at night, night flying was easy, it wasn’t difficult, above the weather
CB: And fog?
GM: As [unclear] it is, pilots, well, they know pilots, I when I was in an aircraft going to Boston one day, [unclear] stupid, so I wrote a wee note to the captain, I said, my last flight was from Gibraltar to Lyneham, sixteen passengers, height six thousand feet, and [unclear] speed a hundred and seventy five, can I come up to see you in your office? So the attendant sent up study staring into his cockpit
CB: Ah, this is on a 747
GM: Was it? I don’t know what the hell that was. Anyway, there was a vibration, you couldn’t see a bloody thing and they are all rushing but half a dozen of them, I thought, this isn’t flying, nor is it, we flew through the weather
CB: Yeah
GM: Christ, we, I was flying, you were actually controlling the bloody thing. It was good, you were doing something.
CB: God!
GM: You were in control.
CB: Yes
GM: It was responsive.
CB: How much did you use the auto-pilot on your aircraft?
GM: What you had to do, it was a chore. Invaluable. That night, when I survived the icing cloud, that was thanks to the link trainer, there’s a record at the back of the books somewhere
CB: Of the amount you did on link trainer?
GM: Yeah
CB: But on the aircraft itself, on the Stirling, did they have an automatic pilot?
GM: Oh yes
CB: They did?
GM: I never used it, at least I did in Transport Command, but not over Germany, ever
CB: Because you were always weaving
GM: For a fraction of a second, you know, [unclear]. But the thing is, Bomber Command was never on air, [unclear] my father’s trench war
CB: Yeah
GM: It was boring, can you imagine spending eight hours most of which when nothing was happening, eight bloody hours, Stettin and back, nothing happened, what a bore, all the bombers over over valued because it was dramatic. What the trips, after the raids above Holland, 1944, is undramatic compared to what happened in the air, so Bomber Command was overvalued. Which is why you’re here.
CB: Flying a B-17, how was that different from flying the Stirling?
GM: You couldn’t Make the bloody thing maneuver, it didn’t want to, it just wanted to stay straight and level, which was its job
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: I mean, the Americans, the Air Force, they didn’t fuck around
CB: No
GM: They [unclear] straight and level
CB: In daylight
GM: Flew it all in daylight, my word, that’s bravery
CB: Absolutely
GM: That’s bravery. Oh yes, we had it easy
CB: And
GM: We had it easy, too much a cream,
CB: And simple comforts on the
GM: All sheets of a kind [unclear] breakfast, drink, cigarettes,
CB: In the Fortress
GM: No, in the Air Force
CB: OH, I see, yes, right, in the,
GM: [unclear]
CB: On the ground, yeah
GM: And too much prestige, too much
CB: In the war
GM: Too much
CB: Yeah
GM: No [unclear], too much. I mean, think what a submarine is like compared to what we did, bloody weeks in the air compared to a submarine, we did a few hours then we were all back to civilisation, so we are overvalued, overestimated. It took me a long time to work this out, I’m convinced of it now
CB: It’s unusual for people to have done more than two, one tour, you did two and then a third one.
GM: No, I did less than two. I did forty-four ops
CB: In total
GM: Supposed to be fifty. I came back from a spoof, nothing, and the wing commander said, Mackie, not [unclear], he’d been a [unclear], Mackie, you’re finished. That’s it, [unclear], I’ll never forget, completely, Mackie, you’re finished
CB: George Mackie, thank you very much indeed for a most interesting conversation
GM: Thank you for coming
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Mackie
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMackieGA171222
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:39:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Mackie served in the RAF as a pilot. He flew forty-four operations, fifteen as a second pilot. Was posted to 15 Squadron in 1941 and critically examines the state of Bomber Command at the time. He was posted for eighteen months to RAF Waterbeach where he flew three operations and took part at the thousand bomber operation to Cologne. Describes the Stirling, its characteristics and performance and compares it to the Flying Fortress. Remembers being hit once by anti-aircraft fire over Leverkusen but without being seriously injured. Was then posted to 214 Squadron, where he flew on Flying Fortresses. At the end of the war, was transferred to Transport Command as an adjutant. Talks about low morale among the aircrew and mentions Scarecrow shells. Remembers his most frightening experience when he flew for five hours in an icing cloud on the way to Hamburg.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
15 Squadron
1651 HCU
214 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
fear
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
memorial
Oxford
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Cranfield
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wyton
Scarecrow
searchlight
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1132/11658/PSmithLeachGP1801.1.jpg
01401ca5a689ce618db9d9542bd38626
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1132/11658/ASmithLeachGP180608.2.mp3
931a30e4939b0edc1877013d978a6ebf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith-Leach, George Patrick
G P Smith-Leach
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with (5834234 British Army). He was stationed for a time near RAF Honnington.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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SmithLeach, GP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: George, anytime at all, if you want me to stop asking you questions, just say so
GSL: No, I’m fine, honestly, I’m used to it, in my [unclear] service
AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Center in Lincoln. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery and the interviewee is Mr. George Smith-Leach. The interview is taking place in George’s home in Troon, Ayrshire and his wife Margarite is also present. George, good afternoon
GSL: Good afternoon to you
AM: Right, well, just to get it going, tell me a little bit about your upbringing before the war?
GSL: Before the war, I was born in Chelmsford, Essex and then from there I moved to Clacton-on-Sea and then I went to school in Clacton-on-Sea and then I went to a seminary catholic college and after being there for about six years when war broke out, along with two others, we ran away from the college, went to Ipswich in Suffolk and the three of us said we were eighteen years of age, no questions were asked, no birth certificates was asked, and we joined the army.
AM: Right, and whereabouts did you join the army?
GSL: In Ipswich
AM: And did any of your family have a military background or [unclear]?
GSL: Yes my father, my father was in World War One, came right through World War One and then when war was declared, I think he was on the reserve or something, and he went back into the army about five weeks before me, he was fifty-two years of age, and was approaching the limit where he needn’t have gone back and I was the opposite way, I needed to exaggerate my age to make me older and before that his mother was married to a regimental sergeant major, I don’t, I really don’t know what regiment he was with and he served his time in India and she lived in India and then came home to Chelmsford and she lived in Chelmsford, Essex until she died but I don’t know enough about their background, my father never ever, when I used to say to him, well, is World War Two anything like World War One? He said, you just get on with World War Two and watch what you’re doing, never mind World War One. He would never speak about what he went through, all I do know, he was at Ypres and he was at Gallipoli, where there weren’t many British troops, they were nearly all I think Canadians but I know that when the World War Two finished, he was the second man demobbed in the British Army and he had about eight or nine medals which I think went to my great nephew.
AM: Right. And where was your first posting?
GSL: My first posting was, after Ipswich we did a bit of training there and then the battalion was split up into companies, A company which I was in went to Honington, C Company went to Martlesham Heath and D company went to Waddington and E Company was the what was now known as the company headquarters company and so I landed up at Honington where we were the ground defense troop, 70th Battalion the Young Soldiers Suffolk Regiment.
AM: So, were all Suffolk Regiment engaged in airfield defense?
GSL: Yes, that was primarily and I should say here categorically that this was Winston Churchill’s own idea that he didn’t like the idea of young men being in with older men who’d come back from Dunkirk who were complaining that they hadn’t had the backup that they should’ve received and they were saying well, Hitler will be over here before long and it wasn’t good for morale and he decided with Field Marshall Alanbrooke that these Young Soldiers Battalion should be formed and there was seven Young Soldiers Battalion formed, they received, were treated as men and got men’s pay and it should’ve been eighteen but the majority of us were all under eighteen, I was fifteen years and eleven months when I went to Honington as ground defense troops
AM: And just tell me what RAF Honington was like when you arrived as an airfield, probably never having seen one in your life before
GSL: No, when we arrived there, when we arrived at first, there was a lot of wooden huts and then the other side of the airfield were brick buildings where the RAF were but we were in these wooden huts, hadn’t been in I think since the airfield had been built but that was where we were stationed and the first day we arrived there, we’re marching up the road and the sergeant major is marching us along and the air raid siren went off and up went the red flag and the red flag would meant that the, that the air raid was imminent and the yellow flag that went off you can [clapping] I didn’t want to go [unclear], anyhow and so the yellow flag went up and he said, we were all looking around apprehensively, and keep marching, he said, and we march on and then the red flag went up and the next minute, I think it was a German Dornier we found out, flew over us, firing machine guns at the hangars and that was our baptism.
AM: So, what you, do you know which RAF units were based at Honington at that?
GSL: Yes, the main squadron there was number 9 Squadron which I understand at that time was one of the most experienced in the RAF, so we were told and then about ten months later the Czechs arrived and they were called the 311 Squadron but they were at a satellite airfield about five miles away from Honington and they were there in tents because there was no accommodation for them and they weren’t very happy about what went on there, in fact at one time there was nearly a mutiny and I think it was the prime, the minister in exile came down, I think he was Benes or somebody was called, he came down and spoke to them all and then they started as a squadron, an operational squadron but things were so bad that on their first raid they lost five aircraft and one aircraft actually landed in France and they never had time to destroy it and they ran away from the aircraft and were taken in by French resistance I think but the Nazis used that aircraft again, so we were told, so things got so bad that even when they were coming in to land or take off, there were crashes so in the end they were taken off operations and a chap who was my hero, Flight Lieutenant Pickard, was, took over the training of this particular squadron, along with the squadron leader whose name I can’t quite remember at the moment but I can get it, and between the two of them they took over the training of them but even in training there were some fatalities, crash landings and things like that, and then I think after about six months it was decided that they were ready then to go back on operations so they used to have to fly their planes from the satellite airfield, the name I’ve forgotten but it is somewhere in my records, and they would fly their plane to Honington, be bombed up et cetera and take off from Honington on the operation, land back at Honington and they’d have to fly the plane after debriefing back to the satellite airfield.
AM: And what airplanes were they operating?
GSL: Wellingtons, all Wellingtons
AM: Right, were 9 Squadron operating Wellingtons as well?
GSL: They were operating Wellingtons and Honington I understand, I can’t verify this, were the first squadron to not drop bombs, they went over and dropped leaflets over Germany and I think they were one of the first squadrons to do that but they all got back safely
AM: I better make a declaration of interest here, I’m an ex member of 9 Squadron and that story is absolutely true [laughs], right, ok, so there were two Wellington squadrons
GSL: Yes
AM: Based at Honington and your job was to act as a guard force
GSL: Yeah, we actually were the ground defense troops for the airfield and then we used to do two hours on and four hours off at this dispersal base, so we would guard the plane at night and during the day when they weren’t on operations and we got to know the crews of our particular plane very, very well indeed and all the time Flight Lieutenant Pickard would come round with the Czechs and the Czechs, the only thing most of them could say was wiz-o and they’d pat you on the back and say wiz-o, wiz-o and one of them who could speak English I remember he came up to me, patted me on the back, nearly knocked me over and said, why aren’t you at school? What are you doing here walking about with a rifle? They couldn’t understand these boys were guarding them. But one thing that did come across with them that the difficulty with the training of them, according to Flight Lieutenant Pickard was they would go in so low to bomb a machine gun such was their hatred of what the Germans had done to their country and so some of the planes would come back with bits flapping off them, some they couldn’t get the wheels down, so we experienced many, many crashes and things like that and the smell of burning flesh, I always remember that to this day would hang over the airfield.
AM: So, just tell me if you can, George, what the dispersal site where the aircraft was parked was like
GSL: Well, it was say a big cops of trees and in a horseshoe method, the whole tree in a horseshoe [unclear] would be cut out and the plane would be backed by a little tractor and then it was over to us, the army, to guard it during the night and then when they were ready, sometimes they would come during the day and the plane would go up, sometimes practice but sometimes it would go over the sea and fire the machine guns and then it would come back in and be put back in the bay and then the people would come up and bomb it up ready for night and at night, even if we’d off duty, we would go down and watch the plane one after the other going on the runway and up the flare path and there used to be a caravan towards the end of the flight path and a green light would go on and the plane would go, lumber off and get up in the sky and circle till they formed up and then off it would go and even if we were off duty sometimes we’d go down to the dispersal bay along with the fitters and people like that and they had a bit of a heart there and played darts and then one of them would say, it’s time for, and they’d name the plane to come back and we would go outside and these men were so good at engines they’d stand there and then one would look at the other and they’d say, she’s in trouble, and [unclear] the plane would be appear and [unclear] flying on one engine and then it would land, swivel about but finally come to rest and then the fire engine and the ambulance would go out to it and then I remember once they lifted the navigator out and his uniform, always remember that, soaked, absolutely soaked in blood, lifted him carefully out and the medical officer would come out, perhaps give him an injection I don’t know what it was, they’d put him in an ambulance and off he would go, then they would go round to perhaps the rear turret and I remember vividly this night, and put it round so they could get to the turret from inside the plane and they’d yank out the rear gunner and on this particular occasion he was dead and he went into another van thing and away it went but this wasn’t isolated, as the thing sort of hopped up, so it became a little more frequent. And then after the leaflets were dropped, then they went into bombing and at Honington they had underground network where when the train arrived with all the bombs, they would shunt the whole plane with bombs on it back into this tunnel and if the air raid came, obviously the Germans who I understand had visited Martlesham Heath Air Force and Honington before the war and must have known about this, they used to aim and try to get this underground place where all the bombs were stored and so sometimes if we weren’t on guard at the planes we’d be on guard at the bombing place, where they bombed up and things like that and they used to give us a bit of chalk and we would write obscenities about Hitler on the bombs before they went off to the plane, but so we got to know the aircrew very well indeed and when there was a raid gonna be on, then sometimes these young fellows would come down all kitted out, ready to get in the plane and we’d kick a ball about or they would say lend us your rifle, and they’d take our rifle and as their mates going down, they would jump out of the trees, point their rifle at them and say, halt? Who goes there? You know, laughing and things like that. And the things they did, superstition, one fellow I remember him, he was, I think he was an air gunner and his name was Ginger [unclear] and he used to come round and say, I’m bursting to urinate and he had to go round the plane to the off wheel and urinate over the wheel and he did this every time before he got on the plane, others would come down and they’d give you a book or something that they were reading and say, hang on to that, I’ll get it when I come back and this was them thing, well, I’m coming back and things like that and when they didn’t come back, if we called it our plane and when it didn’t come back I really and truly there was much sorrow round about the place, all these young blokes that we’ve been kicking the ball about with before they took off weren’t coming back anymore but I should say 9 Squadron didn’t loose an awful lot of planes and sometimes planes would come in because sometimes land weren’t at Honington but that’s where they used to come in to land and when they came in, they nearly almost crash landed. So and then, sometimes when they were going away and they’d handed you something, sometimes they would hand you a letter and tell you that a certain girl they were gonna meet at the dance hall in Bury St Edmunds, describe her and they would say, hey, if I’m a little bit late getting back here will you see that [unclear], she’s got red hair and sounds so and so and her name is Maisie or something and so only once did I have to try and find this young lady to give her this letter because he didn’t come back. So you got to know the aircrew very well so when it was foggy and they couldn’t go on a bombing raid, we all used to go down to the Bell and we used to say, there was the men that flew it, there was the men that crewed it and looked after it and there was the ass that guarded it and they would say, come on, drink up and about a pint of beer was my wack in those days and you would be sitting there with all this beer, come on young fellow, my lad, they used to look upon us I think as mascots, all these boys guarding them, men that were going out on a arduous duty like that and we were supposed to be guarding them, these bits of boys. So, and then the, station, I’ve forgotten his name but he’s in writing somewhere, you might to able to get hold of it, the station commander there was an ex flier and nearly every night he used to come down when a raid was on and stand there watching them taking off and things like that and sometimes the padre would come down and he would stand there too and give us all the blessing before the plane took off but they had all [unclear] another one that I got to know very well, I’ve forgotten his, his nickname was Taggy, and he had his girlfriend’s stocking tied round his neck, this was his mascot, and another one had one of those little yellow chickens, fluffy chickens they used to get on Easter eggs and he would have that as his mascot, and he’d be, I’ve lost my chicken and they’d try and say, come on and get, for God’s sake get in or something,up the little ladder to get in and he would insist on, we all had to go and look for this yellow fluffy chicken thing and then about six weeks after that he didn’t come back, the plane didn’t come back and about six weeks after that I was in the guard room and one of the lads came in, he said, look what I found out there, he said, chickens, he said, this is not gonna last an egg, and I looked at it and said, do you mind if I have that? And it was his chicken, that, this fluffy thing that he’d as a mascot and I had that up to about four years ago and I don’t know what happened to it. So there were thing but you had a terrific, you know, we were Army, they were RAF but you had a terrific camaraderie with them and when we came down sometimes, I’ve seen them, one of them going into the wood at the side of the plane and be violently sick and then come back and clamber in the plane and then they were all jostling and joking and pushing each other about but one of them, what the heck was his name, Tommy something, and he was nineteen and he was the pilot and the oldest aircrew ever I knew was only, he was only thirty-one, he was an air gunner and he was, they used to call him the old man, help the old man, you know, been kitted on, they were trying to help him up this little ladder to get him in, cause he was the old man at thirty-one.
AM: So [clears throat], how long did you serve at Honington in total?
GSL: I was at Honington for about twelve months and then was
AM: Right, so what, what did you, what kind of?
GSL: Arrived in July 1940, and we left in the November ’46, we were relieved by the King’s Royal Rifle Regiment
AM: So, November ’41 you left
GSL: Yeah, ‘40
AM: No, November ‘40
GSL: Yeah, were only there a year
AM: Right, ok
GSL: And then I went to Martlesham
AM: Let me just, kind, I don’t, when did you arrive, in 19?
GSL: July 1940
AM: July 1940?
GSL: Yeah
AM: And you left when?
GSL: We left in November 1940
AM: Right
GSL: We were there about a year
AM: Right, ok.
GSL: But, and on top of that, sometimes when they came back, they clambered out the plane with all it to go and get debriefed a little van would turn up with a WAAF driving and everyone had to kiss her, this was part about the thing as well that they were back or something like that, when [unclear] climbed out, hey, come on, where’s my book? You shouldn’t be reading that! And I looked at the title and it was Lady Chatterley’s Lover. I handed him the book back and but not just me, the others things like that went on as well, but they really were, well, I would only call them, I was only sixteen then but they were inspiring people when you saw them going off but all these different things had to do, urinating against the wheel or go around and touch certain parts of it, all this went on and but and then when sometimes when they came back, they’d say, it’s your lucky day, here’s my chocolate, cause they got a bar of chocolate and an apple or a banana or something, not a banana, an apple and they’d give me their rations and they’d say, ohm I couldn’t eat that, you know and I would say walking round, then I got to know Flight Lieutenant Pickard very well and I was always telling him about and he used to say to me, you know more about the bloody Wellington than I do and I used to say, yes, I want a transfer to the RAF, can you help me to do so? And he said, oh well, I don’t know, you can’t do that, now leave it with me or something and then I’d throw sticks for Ming and then he’d say to me,
AM: You got to explain, who’s Ming?
GSL: The dog, this big, old English sheep dog, there’s photographs of him with that as well and look after Ming for a minute, so I’d hold him by the collar, held his head off as he walked away, I’ve got to go to a meeting with the boss, he said and he doesn’t like Ming cluttering along in the room or whatever it was, so finally one day he said, yeah, ok, I’ll give you a flight up but I want it in writing from your commanding officer that he’s allowing you to do so. So I went to my commanding officer, company commander and he said, a flight in a Wellington? I said, yes, Flight Lieutenant Pickard here’s his extension number, if there is any problem you’ve gotta ring that, so anyhow I had to be at the, it’s all in there, I gotta book for you there, magazine and I went there at half past one and he turned up with a Czech crew and they were going up on some sort of flight, so I arrived and they kitted me out, parachute good as well now, and all the Czechs could keep patting me on the back, wiz-o, wiz-o, wiz-o, they kept saying, then we climbed in the plane, he was the pilot and the co-pilot with him, and I laid on that little bunk thing, and then I sat where the navigator sat, and all that, then I climbed through, and they put me in the rear gunners turret, and then we took off and that was in those days, 1940, it was like a trip to the moon. And we took, we flew off, you could look down, I’ve described it all in the article in the magazine, then we went over the sea and then, I was at the back at this time, navigator, was standing by the navigator and one of them came through, he goes, and took me through and sat in the co-pilot’s seat, and Pickard sitting there, still the hat at the back of his head and [unclear] and we went over, took across the shore and the co-pilot was standing behind me, no guns today, no guns, so when got down, sometimes these trigger happy anti-aircraft gunners used to fire at them so anyway we went over sea then I heard the rattling of guns and this was him testing the machine guns or something and then we turned round and flew back and the next thing I saw Pickard was out of the pilot’s seat and this, the Czech chap was in. Then we came back and landed in these, we’re going down occasionally taping like this and going like this or whatever I can’t you know control and it went in the flare path, touched down and that was us and then I got out and again they gave me bars of chocolate and [unclear] well I was the talk of the company, I was a hero, I’ve been up in a Wellington
AM: Wonderful experience
GSL: Yeah, it was, really, it was, but then after that, I went to apply for a transfer and the company commander said to me, I know your real age, he said, you’re only now coming up for seventeen, if I sanctioned you from here to the RAF, he said, my head would be on the block knowing that you’re not even aged to be in the army, he said, wait you live, wait till you’re eighteen. So I told Pickard this, he said, oh well, you know where I am or something, keep in touch and I used to watch as he got his promotions and where he went, the next thing I knew he’d taken over a new Mosquito squadron or something and then the next thing I heard that they went on this raid and after he’d dropped his bomb or whatever it was and knocked the wall down, he circled and was directing the others in and he got jumped and was shot down and killed and he’s buried in near that place wherever it was
AM: I think it’s Amiens
GSL: Is that where it was?
AM: I think so.
GSL: Yeah, and they made a film and I used to say to my then [unclear] oh, I knew him well, I used to throw sticks for his dog, oh yes, and pigs might fly or something, you know but I did keep in, I’d send him occasional Christmas card but he was so busy, you know then, I think he got to group captain rank I’m not sure. But I know when we left there was a great feeling of sorrow among us, you know, and I think we livened up the place with the [unclear] to get up to, that I mean, one Dornier that was shot down and we were mounting guard over or something the dead, the pilot had been shot through the head, he’s, the German pilot, he’s still in the plane and we had to guard it to make sure no one came up and took bits away for souvenirs, so yeah, and then Sam Costa, the great Sam Costa, he was there, there was a raid on one day and him and I were sitting at the same table
AM: And what was he doing there?
GSL: He was in the [unclear], he was a leading aircraftsman, him and Denny Dennis
AM: Right
GSL: Britain’s Bing Crosby and we’re under the table the raid came on, and kippers, I don’t know where they came from [unclear] and well, he said, I don’t think we’ve been introduced, a bomb, a raid going on, he said I’m Sam Costa, I said, I thought I knew your face, he reached up, got the kippers, and we’re eating the gats in my magazine, the full thing, eating these kippers and then the raid was over and we went outside, we’re standing talking and right beside the doorway was an unexploded bomb, so we all took off running in all directions and he was on there on the show one day and I said to my late wife, I had tea with him, she said, another one of your stories? So, in the end, I wrote to him and I got a photograph back which group captain Tate’s now got and in his own writing on the back, dear George, you are so right about Honington and the kippers as well. And I thought, well, it’s no use lying of in the attic and I gave group captain Tate that as well.
AM: Right
GSL: So, he’s got all that
AM: So, tell me a little bit more about the catering you were off duty in the Honington area [unclear]
GSL: Well, in Honington you couldn’t go far because there was still the threat of a German invasion so we had to, you couldn’t go far at all, only in the evening you’d go out and we’d go into the village and sometimes in there you might find some of the aircrew playing darts or things like that, young blokes and we all mingled together in the village we’d put on in a room or something they make it up, make tea and cakes for us, the women would sit there and darn your socks or stuff like that, and then on a weekend we got into Bury St Edmunds and there’d be a dance there at the Corn exchange I think you call it, so all the Czechs and people like that would be there as well, it was right mingling of these army boys, that’s all we were, there were some men, they were on Middlesex Regiment, on these guns, and one of those actually shot a Dornier down,
AM: Gosh!
GSL: Yeah, with a Lewis gun
AM: So, when you left Honington after a year, where did you go to [unclear]?
GSL: At Martlesham Heath
AM: Right
GSL: And they were all fighters there
AM: So, why were you transferred? Was it just a unit move or?
GSL: Well, it was a unit move but I think the authorities, you know, thought that as boys we were getting far too hero worshipping these people, it might do more harm than good and those, I mean, there was things went on like staff they shouldn’t have been taking out of the camp, you know, staff that, you know, they got hold of by unfair means, and we’re on guard supposed to stop all this
AM: Do you mean, black market stuff?
GSL: Yeah, and
AM: Sorry
GSL: But because we knew them so well, we would say, yeah
AM: This is the aircrew doing the black market this or?
GSL: No, sometimes some of the cookhouse people as well, you know
AM: Right, so groundcrew mainly
GSL: Yeah, there was all sorts going on but
AM: And what sort of contraband was been treated here?
GSL: Sometimes petrol, they’d take a couple of gallons of petrol or something?
AM: Right
GSL: Things like that or yeah, but not a lot of that went on you know they, I think they lived for the day, when they went off sometimes one might have a small car and you’d be on guard at the gate, the main gate, before the RAF regiment was formed, that was us, and you’d be beyond the main gate and this little car would come along about twelve of them in it, so hanging on it and everything, hey, hey, cheerio George! And all this and off they’d go and then they’d come back at night, worse for wear with the booze, you know
AM: So you went from
GSL: Honington to Martlesham Heath
AM: Right
GSL: And at Martlesham Heath we’re guard duty again
AM: Right
GSL: But by this time, we’ve taken over from, also taken over from the RAF police
AM: Great
GSL: You had an armband on and instead of your rifle they gave us a revolver and you show you’re on the main gates
AM: Right
GSL: And things like that but and it was where, when we were there, that the RAF Regiment was formed. They transferred some of our sergeants into the RAF Regiment
AM: Right
GSL: And then, after that off we went to Felixstowe as a battalion and gradually they disbanded the 70th Young Soldiers and put us out to other units.
AM: Right. So, what did you do for the rest of the war?
GSL: Rest of the war I was in the, finished up in the war in, what is known as the special service Combined Operations Bombardment unit
AM: Right
GSL: This was Mountbatten’s idea. What it used to be, there used to be an artillery captain, a NCO army sergeant and three naval telegraphists and that was the unit, number 4 unit I was in. Now, when the invasion took place, in Sicily, Italy and France, no heavy artillery was ashore and they were finding that these tank regiments, the German tank could come and knock hell out of the invasion, so what happened? Some of us would go in by air, these units but we were attached to a warship, so we went ashore in advance of the troops that were invading and a brigadier or somebody would come up and say, you bombardment unit chaps and our captain would say yes, and he’d say, right, over there, we’ve had information that a Tiger tank unit is forming up, can you knock hell out of them? Now the captain, through the telegraphist, they would sent back to the warship we were attached to the war spy and they would send back to that and on board the ship was an artillery captain as well and between him and the gunnery officer and we were called forward observation bombardment, our captain ashore, if he got killed, I would have to take over his duties, and then the first shot would be fired, a ton shell would come over and say it landed about quarter of a mile to the left of the target, he would have to correct that, another one would come over and perhaps that would straddle target and the next one would come over and land on it and then the war spy would do a broadside bombardment, you never heard a noise like that and when all the smoke and that had lifted there was nothing there but these huge craters and that was a special training we had to have for that, so some went in with the airborne unit, some went in with the sea units, but we had to have special training for the artillery side of it and then as an infantry man as well, as well as artillery I got an extra 2 and six a day I think. I had to make sure that the, you know, while he was doing all this, that it wouldn’t be because the Germans were keen to get hold of us cause they knew it was us [unclear] the RAF would come in and spot a plane, they were being shot down and they couldn’t give the precise area as well as what we could on the ground, so after they’d gone in out of range of the warships, out of range altogether and heavy artillery got ashore, we were then sent back to rejoin certain units.
AM: Right
GSL: And then, when the, the war was just about half over, in Germany, the Rhine, we got called back home to do airborne training for the invasion of Japan. So we went to India and joined the 44th Indian Airborne Division and luckily for us they dropped the atomic bomb
AM: Right
GSL: Or us and the American 101st Airborne Division were gonna be the first one to be in and [unclear] the Japanese there wouldn’t be many of us left on for sure. So that was my, but of all my service, the way I contributed to most I almost think was at Honington. Yeah
AM: So, how did you feel for you, did you leave Honington by coach or by train or did you march out? How did you feel when you left?
GSL: We left Honington, we went by three ton pickup truck to Martlesham.
AM: Right
GSL: And a lot of the RAF were out, you know, cheering and things like that. And when the, by that time of course, just after that, the Americans moved in and took over and put down concrete runways and God knows what else. But this, I’ll just get
AM: Have you ever been back to Honington since?
GSL: No, when David Tate was here, I did say, not quite, not intended anything, I’d say, oh yes, I’d really would love to go back because he said a lot of the things haven’t changed and he sent us an email that he’d been in the mess where I’d been with Sam Costa and he says, I looked round and saw the same tables and that, nothing’s changed and he said, I just looked and my mind wandered to when you and Sam Costa were having your tea during an air raid. And I did, while he was here, I did say, yes, I would like to go back and see but he didn’t say anything. If he’d said, yes, I’d like to go, I, yeah, you must come, I’d have gone. But most of my time over that period I had a great liaison with Flight Lieutenant Matheson who even gave me a big painting I’ve got upstairs and sent me this nice glass drinking mug, they only made fifty of them or something, and on top of that, he said, well, if your book’s ready for publication, bring all the books down to Honington and we’ll set up a stall and you can sell them here but no, by that time I’ve got it in the attic, gathering cobwebs.
AM: So just tell me what happened to you after the war
GSL: After the war, well, during the war here I was at Troon, up at Dundonald Camp we were training invading the isle of Arran and everything to invade Japanese islands and things like that and I met my late wife, met her, engaged and married in nine weeks and off I went to India. Well, because I’d done a bunk from the college, my education was sadly lacking because I’d done a bunk and ahead was some of the best education that you could get at these colleges, and by this time I married and war was over and I was in India waiting demob and I thought what am I gonna do now? And then my commanding officer said, you sign up for three years, I’ll get you to the Quetta, which was the Indian Sandhurst and I’ll get you, you’ll get a commission, by then I was a sergeant and he said, but you’ll have to sign up for three years and you might not get home for at least for another two years, so I’d just been married and I said, no, I won’t do it, so when I, while I was out there they were looking for police, the police were sadly depleted, so I sat the exam for Essex Constabulary and when I got demobbed, all I had to do was to go and get the medical, that made me a policeman. But the night I came home, my wife was at farming stock, her two brothers who ran the farm had a car accident, real car accident, bad accident, so I couldn’t take her away to Essex, so I had to let it go by, so I joined the police at Ayr and then while I was at Ayr, I then went to transfer to Kilmarnock and then I thought, I studied English law, because promotion in England was quicker and I went down to England to various forces there and rose from police constable up here in Ayr to assistant chief constable and then, after that, I was promoted up here to chief of police of the British Transport Police and that’s where I did thirty-six years, then I came out and did voluntary work at the Children’s Panel, chairman of advisory committee for Children’s Panel and that’s me here, still here. So, I’m now ninety-four years of age and I’ve been very lucky health wise and that was me and now I’ve been married for the second time to a lovely, really lovely lady and that’s it.
AM: Well, that’s more than it
GSL: Couple of years ago, I got a phone call to say they wanted to make me a something of,
AM: Legion d’honneur?
GSL: Knight of honor or something
AM: Legion d’honneur?
GSL: Yeah, of and I thought, I said, no, I don’t want anything to do with that, I got six medals from my own army, that’s it, enough for me, and I got a police medal as well, and I don’t want any more medals at seventy odd years ago and Margaret said, look, if you don’t go, I’m going. So finally, I went and they gave me this medal, I don’t know if you’d seen one, I got that, and that’s it. So me, I don’t, I was asked here to join the British Legion, I said, I’m sorry I don’t believe it, on D-Day I like to go to church, quietly in church and sit there, say a few prayers and meditate cause I lost a lot of good pals, I was on the D-Day landings, I landed five minutes after midnight on D-Day and saw a lot of [unclear], lost a lot of good pals, and then three weeks after that this side of Bayeux I was wounded in the leg and came home and with being young I suppose and fit I was ok again within about a fortnight, I thought of going back to my unit, and I didn’t, I went to Ringway, Manchester as an instructor, and I was desperately trying to get back to my unit and one day the sergeant major came in who didn’t like for some reason, why have you got two names, he said? Only officers have two names. I should call you Leach. So he came in, ah, Leach, you’re getting your transferred [unclear] I thought how wonderful and what happened? I was posted to India. Then I came home from India and that and went into the police, never regretted it, did thirty six years, which I enjoyed and then, when things were getting very political I could’ve gone on it that rank, I could’ve gone on to 65 and I said, no thank you, it was getting very political, I thought it was time I was out of here, thirty-six years is enough, by that time I was in my late fifties, so I came out. But I always look back vividly to my days at Honington with those aircrew, always. All these young men, they were there one day, gone the next and there was a WAAF sergeant and a senior NCO in the RAF that they used to go round when they never returned, put all their belongings in a bag or something, and a new lot moved in, you know.
AM: When a crew was lost
GSL: Yeah. So
AM: That must be a great upsetting
GSL: For them I should think yeah, very, but they used to say, when some of them climbed down out of the plane they would say, can’t stop, I’ll see you tonight or something, my bacon and eggs awaits me, they got bacon and eggs when they got back or something but sometimes we had, their first raid on Berlin, we all had to go to the briefing room on guard outside and anyhow after they’d gone they had a map up, there was a place where you could look through a crack, and a blackout with a big red tape, and they put this tape from Honington up to where it gotta go and then the weather officer, he would come and tell them all about what the weather was to be like, they’re all righting away and things like that and then finally the station commander, he would come up and tell them and the operations, there were these four important men before they went on a raid and then they’d come and they’d say, where’s’ the ball? And start kicking this ball about again
AM: How many times did you sneak to watch this briefing process?
GSL: Oh well, I shouldn’t be telling you that
AM: No, I’d like you to
GSL: Well, about six or seven times
AM: That must have been fascinating
GSL: Yeah, we had a place where there was a crack that very few of us knew about, but we were there on guard, even the RAF weren’t allowed in there
AM: Right, so this
GSL: And this day, this, I always remember, we had a bloke with us called Nobby Byer, a Londoner, was reputed he was only fourteen when he joined up and said he was eighteen, and he stole a pair of long trousers off a line to put on because he’d only got shorts and he was a so and so and there’s bits in there in your magazine you’ll read, anyhow he was on guard and this RAF officer came up and Nobby said, you can’t go in there, and he said, what do you mean, I can’t go in there? I’ve got the weather reports or so, you can’t go in there or something, I’m going in there, Nobby turned around with his rifle, you don’t you go trying going in there and in the end they chap with all these pipes, hammered on the door or something and they opened up, in, yeah, oh yes.
AM: Well, George Smith-Leach, to give you your proper name, or I should say, British Transport chief constable George Smith-Leach, thank you very much.
GSL: Right
AM: That’s a pleasure, I really enjoyed that, George, thank you
GSL: It’s an honor
AM: No, a pleasure
GSL: An honor
AM: [laughs], right, well, that’s gone alright I think
GSL: Well, that’s the first time I’ve spoken like that, I’ve told Margaret bits
AM: Yeah
GSL: Not even my first wife but to her I’ve told her bits like this
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Patrick Smith-Leach
Creator
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Alistair Montgomery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithLeachGP180608, PSmithLeachGP1801
Format
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00:47:28 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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British Army
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Suffolk
England--Bury St. Edmunds
England--Felixstowe
India
Japan
Description
An account of the resource
George was born in Chelmsford, Essex. He then moved to Clacton-on-Sea where he went to school before going to a seminary catholic college. When war broke out, he and two other boys aged 15 or 16 ran away from college and went to Ipswich to join the army. George arrived at RAF Honington in July 1940 and stayed there about a year. Bombs were stored in an underground network. After training he joined A Company 70th Battalion for airfield defence, guarding 9 Squadron aircraft at night. 311 Squadron, flying Wellingtons, were later living in tents about five miles from the station. The squadron lost a few aircraft and underwent further training. George recalled the station commander and padre watching the aircraft take off.
George remembered an occasion when aircraft had come back damaged with a badly injured crew. He said the aircrews would touch part of the aircraft for luck before flying. He thought crews were inspiring and would have liked to be transferred to the Royal Air Force. The crew gave him the opportunity to have a flight in a Wellington, which he described. At weekends they would occasionally all go to Bury St Edmunds to a dance. After RAF Honington the unit was transferred to RAF Martlesham Heath on guard duty. They then went to Felixstowe as a battalion. After special training the unit joined the Combined Operations Bombardment Unit 4 which was attached to a warship. Next they did airborne training to go to India and Japan. He was demobbed in India, married and then became a policeman at Ayre. Finally he became Chief of Police for British Transport Police.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
311 Squadron
9 Squadron
bombing
military living conditions
RAF Honington
RAF Martlesham Heath
superstition
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/674/10078/AArmstrongGR170720.2.mp3
55817c13ad0fb13379065a9f931fa4e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Armstrong, George Rex
G R Armstrong
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Rex Armstrong (1925 - 2019, 3225057). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 195 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Armstrong, GR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JW: Right, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is John Wells, the interviewee is Rex Armstrong. The interview is taking place at Mr Armstrong’s home at [redacted], Donaghadee. Also present are Mrs Elisabeth Armstrong and Mrs Helen Wells. The date is Thursday, the 20th of July 2017 and the time is 2, 14.20. Right, Rex, can I ask you to, well, thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed first of all, can I ask you tell me a little bit about your early life, where you were born and what you did before you?
RA: I was born in Belfast [unclear] fire station.
JW: Well, when were you born and what was your date of birth?
RA: We moved from Belfast to Donaghadee whenever I was four year old. Went to school in Donaghadee, the school was right on the seafront in Donaghadee there and when I got old enough, I wanted to get out to work and I went then to one of the early [unclear] in Belfast and I served my time in it and also whenever I got my time done, I went and worked in County Down Railway for a while and went then in to [unclear] worked my way [unclear] computer factory, making computers and I worked my way up into, to manager, a manager in it there with three factories and I was put in charge, well, eventually was put in charge of one of them, and I worked there until the place closed up eventually and I went and I worked in another place and making drums, tent [unclear], things like that.
JW: Was that before, at what stage, was that before the war or was that after you left the RAF?
RA: No, I went into the, I think the [unclear] the RAF, my brother I think, you know, I looked up to him, ‘cause he was doing the second tour of operations and I was only starting my first
JW: What was your brother’s name?
RA: Ted, Edward.
JW: So, Edward.
RA: Edward Armstrong.
JW: Edward Armstrong. Right.
RA: He was called after my father ‘cause he was older than me and he did two tours of operations.
JW: And your father, what did your father do?
RA: My father worked selling [unclear] cars, Vauxhall cars.
EA: He was in the RAF too. He was in the RAF.
JW: And--
RA: Then, when they were bombing Belfast, I was in the fire service and soon as the raid had finished, I was up in the fire service, Belfast told them to put the fires out.
EA: He was sixteen.
JW: And your father was a fireman?
RA: Father was a fire [unclear], I was a fireman too, I joined fire station, my grandfather was in charge of the station, that was just before the war.
EA: Joined up.
JW: So, can you tell me a little about how you came to join the RAF?
RA: Yeah. My brother was joined in the RAF and he did one tour of operation and I’d thought that I liked what he was doing so the day that I was eighteen, I went up to Belfast to join up and I joined up in the RAF and I was called up just about a month after, less than a month and I was called up and I went to England to London and started training there [unclear] and went from there to Wales that was where I did my training and I did a course and passed out and that and then was, went to another place in Lincolnshire and it was, it was mustering the crews and what you want? You’re in, in the aerodrome and you’re all lined up and marched in and whenever they said halt where you were, the pilot was just right at your right arm and he came down and he was from [unclear], he was from Bradford I think it was he was from and he said, hi, how are you, would you like to join the RAF? And [unclear] part of my aircrew? And he said, I said, yes, I’d like to join, and he said, where do you live? And I said, you wouldn’t know, wee village [unclear] Northern Ireland called Donaghadee, and he says, Donaghadee? And I said, yes, and he put his hand in his pocket and brought out this photograph and a photograph of Donaghadee and he would have been policeman and he was sent over to Northern Ireland on a course and he had this photograph down the harbour in Donaghadee and then so I, I liked him and joined up in his crew and we did the tour of operations at twenty raids and then you get a rest.
JW: Can you tell me a little about the process, you know, what was involved in a raid?
RA: [unclear] What was involved?
JW: Can you talk, have you any one that sticks out in your mind?
RA: I, can honestly and [unclear] did say I enjoyed it.
JW: Yeah.
RA: I think that being only eighteen years of age, you were still a wee boy there really but I did enjoy it.
JW: What was your, I mean, you were in a different aircraft, you weren’t always with the same aircrafts.
RA: I was always with Lancaster bombers.
JW: Lancaster. But not the same aircraft every time.
RA: Not the same aircraft, but that was what I was on. Lancasters, I did all me ops on Lancasters.
JW: Where did you operate from? What was your base?
RA: My base was, first base was Lincolnshire, the second place I think it was [unclear] place, [unclear] Midlands.
JW: Was Wratting Common, I believe.
RA: Wratting Common.
JW: In Essex.
RA: Yeah, that’s where I was at Wratting Common.
JW: How long were you there for?
RA: Pardon?
JW: How long were you there for?
RA: I was there for, I suppose doing a tour of operations, I was there for about nine months and whenever you do, when you do the twenty raids you’re rested and come home on leave for, I think it was, a fortnight and back again.
JW: I believe that you, what squadron were you on?
RA: Sorry?
JW: What squadron number were you on?
RA: 195.
JW: 195, yeah. Do you remember the names of your crew?
RA: Yes. [unclear] name was George, I [unclear]
EA: Just the names, he wants the names, Rex, whenever the time comes.
RA: George.
EA: Scooley, is that the only one you can remember?
RA: I’ve forgotten.
EA: Aye.
JW: He was the skipper.
EA: Mh?
JW: He was the skipper.
RA: George Scooley, his name, he was a policeman. Whenever I joined up as a crew, George Scooley was the captain and the pilot and whenever I joined up, you marched into the, you marched into the hangar and whenever you were called halt, guy who you’d be standing aside, that was gonna be your captain or crew man and he picked me and he asked me where I came from and I told him, I come from Northern Ireland, he said, whereabouts from Northern Ireland do you come from? And I said, I come from, I said, you wouldn’t know, a wee place called Donaghadee, he put his hand on his breast pocket uniform and pulled a photograph out, he says, you know, that was a photograph of Donaghadee, he had been over here on some course or other for the police.
JW: I believe you may, you were involved in the raid on Dresden, is that correct?
RA: [unclear]
EA: He didn’t hear you.
JW: Were you involved in the raids on Dresden?
EA: Dresden. He can’t hear you.
RA: That was, the raid on Dresden, that was, I think that was the worst raid that I’ve done and I’d done twenty altogether but Dresden was probably the worst.
JW: How, what was your, when were you told that you were going to raid Dresden?
RA: [unclear] sorry?
EA: He can’t hear you. Repeat.
JW: Yeah. Can you tell me more about the raid on Dresden?
RA: It was the worst raid that, there was an awful lot of bombs dropped and we dropped a lot of bombs too and-
EA: [unclear]
JW: What was it like looking down, could you see Dresden as you approached?
RA: Yes, you could. To me, it was two runs, [unclear] two runs ‘cause the full bomb load, and went in and dropped half the load and then once you flew over the line of where you bombed, turned round, come back in and dropped the other half. Dresden was probably one of the worst raids.
JW: Yeah. Were you, would, the briefing before Dresden, do you remember that?
RA: Vaguely, [unclear], forgotten all about but that was a big raid.
EA: [unclear]
JW: Yeah. Do you remember Operation Manna, in Holland, when you were dropping supplies to the Dutch?
RA: Yeah.
JW: Can you tell me anything about that?
RA: Yeah, that was quite enjoyable flying over Holland and dropping, dropping food to the Holland people ‘cause they were starving and we dropped food to them and that was it, we were flying over, and we were so low that the skipper said to me, what time is it? And I [unclear] gonna look at my watch, and he said, not there, there and we were looking level at the town clock and you don’t [unclear] look up or look down, just look out and there is the time, that was [unclear] enjoyable but.
JW: Do you have any stories from when you were dropping for Operation Manna, dropping cigarettes? I believe you had a story about black marketeers?
RA: Somebody had written out on the ground and written down [?] drop your cigarettes here.
JW: How many days did that last for? Did you do more than one sortie?
RA: [unclear] I think we did it for a week.
EA: [unclear]
JW: And I believe there was also another operation which was Operation Exodus which was
RA: Bringing prisoners, bringing people home from the war, yeah, I can remember that.
JW: That would be a happy one.
RA: Bringing prisoners of war back.
JW: Where did you go to pick yours up?
RA: Mh?
JW: Where did you pick your prisoners of war up from?
RA: I picked them up, I forget where it was, it was in France but we picked them up if I remember right [unclear] in Germany, bringing, I know when the war was over we, our own soldiers and [unclear] women we took them on a Cook’s Tour over Germany and to let them see what the place looked like.
JW: That was your own groundcrew.
RA: Mh-mh. Yeah, they were the first ones.
JW: And when were you demobbed then after, was this long after that?
RA: Demobbed, I suppose six months.
EA: Yes, I suppose six.
JW: A flight engineer’s position on a Lancaster, could you see out or were you in the dark most of the time?
RA: Yeah, I could see, no problem.
EA: [unclear]
JW: But you, could you see out, see where you were passing?
RA: Yeah, could see ahead.
JW: Yeah.
RA: Looking in front of you.
JW: And after the war, you, would you like to tell me what you did after the war?
RA: After the war [unclear] I went back, I was serving my time in County Down Railway when I joined the RAF and.
JW: So, did you go back to them to finish your apprenticeship?
RA: Mh-mh. [clock chimes] Yes, but I had to go back to finish my apprenticeship.
JW: And then, did you work for the Ulster Railway then or did you go, did you move onto another job?
RA: I went, I finished my time there on the County Down Railway.
EA: And then you went to [unclear]
RA: And I went to [unclear] firm that was computers and I worked with them for I don’t know years and I worked my way up in the factory [unclear] was three factories, they had Belfast and one of them, I worked my way up to the manager of the factory so where assembled the machine, computer machines, tested them.
JW: Can you tell me a little bit about your brother Edward?
RA: Ted?
JW: Ted, yeah.
RA: Yeah.
JW: He was, what did he do in the RAF?
RA: He was a flight engineer, same as I was, and he did two tours of operations and had forty trips.
JW: Did he take part in any particular raids that you can remember?
RA: He bombed Berlin two or three times and [unclear]
JW: Yeah. What squadron was he?
RA: I forget.
EA: 61.
JW: Can you tell me which squadron he was in?
RA: I forget the number it was.
EA: Six.
RA: 61?
EA: 617.
JW: So, can you tell me which squadron your brother was in?
RA: 61. 617.
JW: 617, yes, which was I think, the Dambusters squadron.
RA: Mh-mh.
JW: But he didn’t take part in the raid.
RA: No.
JW: And he, he survived the war?
RA: He survived the war.
JW: Right. Well, Rex, thank you very much for sharing with me your memories and what we’ll do is they will send a copy of transcript of the interview and also a copy of this CD once they’ve downloaded it into the database.
RA: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Rex Armstrong
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Wells
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AArmstrongGR170720
Format
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00:33:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Rex Armstrong served in the RAF as a flight engineer. He was born in Belfast and grew up in Donaghadee. Decided to join the RAF because he wanted to follow his brother Ted, who flew forty operations with 617 Squadron. Mentions being in the fire service as a young boy during the bombing of Belfast. After completing his training, he was posted to 195 Squadron at RAF Wratting Common. From there he flew a tour of twenty operations on Lancasters. He was involved in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. Remembers his worst operation, which was to Dresden.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Northern Ireland--Belfast
Northern Ireland--Donaghadee
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
195 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Wratting Common
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/706/10104/ABellGW161221.1.mp3
9f6081f87bc9ed1ae80c509b7527e12c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bell, Gerald Walter
G W Bell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Corporal Gerald Bell (b. 1921, 185210 Royal Air Force). He served as ground personnel.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bell, GW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 21st of December 2016 and I am with Gerald Bell in Weston near Towcester in Northamptonshire and Gerald worked on the ground throughout the war and we are going to talk about his life and times. So, what’s the first thing you remember about life, Gerald?
GB: Going to school I suppose.
CB: Ok.
GB: At five. Yes.
CB: And where is that?
GB: Hickling. School.
CB: Which was near where? Hickling?
GB: [unclear]
CB: In Norfolk.
GB: Yes.
CB: Yes, in Norfolk. Ok. And what did your father do?
GB: He was getting people.
CB: And how many children?
GB: [unclear]
CB: Did he really? Balance, mixed balance between boys and girls or?
GB: Six girls and four boys.
CB: And where you in the pecking order?
GB: Number seven.
CB: Right [laughs]. And mother had a fulltime job?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Looking after you.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, you went to Hickling school. The primary school. Where did you go for the secondary education?
GB: Never had a secondary education.
CB: Didn’t you?
GB: Left school at fourteen.
CB: Right, ok, and then what did you do?
GB: Me first job was, worked on a poultry farm. That was until I was sixteen.
CB: Yeah.
GB: Then me wages went up and they sacked me [laughs], oh yes, yes, that was quite normal those days. Rather than pay you cause [unclear] I suppose.
CB: Yeah, so then what did you do?
GB: Then I went on the farm. I was the yardman, I did the milking, feed the cattle and the pigs, did the milking.
CB: And how long did you do that for?
GB: Just trying to think.
CB: Well, the war came in 1939, by which time you were eighteen.
GB: I was working, oh, I left the farm
CB: Yeah
GB: Because the governor died
CB: Oh!
GB: And everything was sold off of course and I got a job on a food farm and I was there until I was called up, that was in 1940.
CB: What kind of fruit was it growing?
GB: Well, all sorts. Yeah.
CB: So, when you were called up, where did you go for your attestation?
GB: At Cardington.
CB: After that?
GB: I went back to work of course, I was called up to Stockton
CB: Yeah.
GB: And there I did me basic training, I can’t remember the name of the
CB: This is on the east coast near Whitby.
GB: No, further up
CB: Further up than that. Ok.
GB: Yes, that
CB: Scarborough.
GB: No, no, further up. It’s that place that had the iron things shut, [unclear]
CB: Shutten, no, that’s north west.
GB: Further up.
CB: Yes, up near Middlesbrough. OK, well, we’ll come back to that, yeah.
GB: It’s a seaside
CB: Seaside place.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
GB: Quite well known.
CB: Ok.
GB: It I [unclear] think of it.
CB: Need a map. [laughs] right. How long were you there doing that training?
GB: About six weeks, I think. Then I went to Finningley
CB: Did you?
GB: Yes.
CB: Right. So, you are now, what rank are you?
GB: Ordinary AC plonk.
CB: Yeah, AC plonk. Right. And what did you do at Finningley?
GB: Any general duties.
CB: So, you were a general duties ground staff
GB: Yes, yes.
CB: So, what would that entail?
GB: Any job that wanted doing, cleaning up, anything.
CB: All outside or was some of it office work or what was it?
GB: No, no, it was all outside.
CB: Ok.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, what sort of places would needed to be cleaned up?
GB: Anywhere, the [unclear] or anything like that, you know, anything, general duties,
CB: Ok. So, if there was a fuel spill outside, would you have to go and clean up the fuel spill [unclear] aircraft?
GB: No.
CB: No, you wouldn’t. Was there any gardening to do?
GB: No. [unclear] garden in those days.
CB: No. So, what other things could you remember that you did there?
GB: No, nothing special, really.
CB: And how long were you at Finningley?
GB: I transferred to Balderton, yes, and I suppose I was there about twelve months.
CB: Ok.
GB: And I got posting, overseas posting.
CB: Right.
GB: Yes.
CB: So, before we do that, what did you do at Balderton?
GB: Same thing, general duties. Yes. Nothing special.
CB: Who was, who were you reporting to in that case?
GB: [unclear] in charge, that’s all.
CB: Which section would that be?
GB: I was [unclear] to general duties
CB: The general duties section
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, did you enjoy being at Balderton or was it boring?
GB: Nothing was boring, no, because I lived in the village, I been far away so everything was new
CB: Yes.
GB: Yes.
CB: So, the bright lights you came to
GB: Yes.
CB: So, what did you do in your time off?
GB: Chasing the women
CB: Did you really?
GB: And drinking of course [laughs], yes.
CB: Was that confined to the station or were you
GB: No, [unclear]
CB: Yeah? How did you travel around from the station to
GB: They had lorries.
CB: Yeah. What was the nearest big town?
GB: Doncaster, yes.
CB: So, that had lots of service people in it?
GB: Oh, quite a few, yes.
CB: Yes.
GB: Lots of people from Finningley went to Doncaster.
CB: Yeah. What sort of time did you have there?
GB: Oh, enjoyed myself of course.
CB: What was the main activity when you went out, apart from drinking and, dancing did you do?
GB: Not a lot of dancing,
CB: No?
GB: I don’t think.
CB: Cinema?
GB: Yes.
CB: So, the lorry would take you and then collect you, bring you back at a certain time.
GB: Yes, yes.
CB: If you missed the lorry, then what?
GB: You had to get back on your own.
CB: How did you do that?
GB: Yeah, walk back [laughs].
CB: How long did that take?
GB: [unclear] Couple of hours, something like that, yes. You had to creep in the camp without anyone knowing [laughs].
CB: What was security like on an airfield?
GB: Pretty good, you used to have to lift up the barbwire and get underneath.
CB: Did you?
GB: Oh yeah [laughs], To get in.
CB: How many times did you get caught?
GB: I didn’t get caught [laughs].
CB: But some people did.
GB: Oh yes, yes.
CB: And then what happened?
GB: I don’t know, I supposed they went before the [unclear] and that was that. Well, you didn’t get away with anything if they caught you.
CB: Who was the person on the station you feared most?
GB: Oh, I suppose, the SWO.
CB: Yes, Station warrant officer.
GB: Yeah.
CB: He had a lot of power, did he?
GB: Yeah [laughs]. Keep out of his way.
CB: Why were people worried about him?
GB: I don’t know, I suppose everybody looked up at him, didn’t they? Yeah.
CB: Even the junior officers were worried
GB: Yes, yes.
CB: So, on the station, what sort of entertainment was there there?
GB: Oh, there was quite a few of the, what was it, not naafi, I forget the name of the people that used to do the
CB: The WVS, was it?
GB: No, it wasn’t, no, it was the [unclear], I suppose they were actors, not professionals.
CB: Oh, ENSA, yes.
GB: Yes. That’s right.
CB: ENSA, yes.
GB: ENSA, yes.
CB: They came and did performances.
GB: Yes.
CB: Where would they do that on the station?
GB: I was just trying to think, it must be one of the hangars.
CB: Ah, right.
GB: Yes. Yes, yes, we didn’t have anywhere else to go, in the winter we used to do roller-skating in the hangars.
CB: Right. How popular was that?
GB: Oh, that was very popular.
CB: So, how did people keep fit during their service in the RAF in the war?
GB: Cause they got us fit when we did the training sort of thing and we never bothered after that really.
CB: And when you were off duty, then you ate in the airmen’s mess, did you?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And what was the food like?
GB: Not bad, I suppose, yes, yeah. Yes, never heard any complaints.
CB: And to what extent did you link up with the aircrew?
GB: Not much, not really,
CB: What was
GB: Only if we were on guard duty and they come up [laughs]
CB: How often did you have to do guard duty?
GB: I don’t know. One fortnight, something like that.
CB: So, the guard be on a shift system, what were the shifts for that? Certain number of hours on and then and a certain number of hours off.
GB: Yes. Yeah, I think it be about two on and four off, something like that, yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, did you manage to arrest any aircrew who were trying to get in late?
GB: We wouldn’t arrest anyone [laughs], we knew the most of them anyway.
CB: Yeah. But to be effective you had firearms, didn’t you?
GB: Yes, yeah.
CB: And did you have live ammunition?
GB: No.
CB: So, did that have any restriction on the deterrent?
GB: I suppose they knew as well as we knew.
CB: Yeah, yeah. And so Finningley and Balderton, were both Bomber Command organisations, what was going on at those airfields?
GB: What was it, they were just previous to the [unclear] on the bomb.
CB: Yeah.
GB: So,
CB: So they had the operational training unit
GB: Yes, right.
CB: At Balderton, yeah.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GB: And Finningley.
CB: And Finningley, right, ok. So, what were the planes that they were flying to do that? Do you remember?
GB: I think they were mostly Wellingtons.
CB: Right, yeah. And what were their flying hours day and night,
GB: Yes,
CB: Did they, both day and night? Was it?
GB: Yes.
CB. And what about accidents from the training?
GB: Yes, a few.
CB: Were they? What sort of things went wrong?
GB: I don’t know, they never really let on what has happened to them.
CB: Right. Did any happen on the airfields?
GB: No, no, no,
CB: So when you got, you finished at Balderton, what time of year was that?
GB: I can’t remember all.
CB: So, that’s 1941 anyway.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, you then posted overseas. Where did you go?
GB: We had to go to, oh, blimey.
CB: Did they have an assembly point in Britain before you embarked? Because you had to
GB: I’m just trying to think where we went to, to meet up sort of thing
CB: Yeah.
GB: The whole lot of us, was always [unclear] about fifty of us, on, blimey, I can’t think of the name of the place.
CB: Where is it near?
GB: On the south coast.
CB: Ah, right.
GB: Where they used to control the aircraft.
CB: On the radar stations?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Right.
GB: The main one. But I can’t remember.
CB: But it was on the coast.
GB: Nearly on the coast, yes.
CB: Yeah. And then everybody assembled, who were all these people, were they mixtures of ground and air crew or what were they?
GB: They weren’t aircrew at all, these were all
CB: All ground crew.
GB: All ground.
CB: All ground personnel.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, when you were assembled, then where did you go?
GB: You had to go down to Sidforth for training with the army, the Dorset, was it Dorset?
CB: Yeah.
GB: We had training there.
CB: What type of training were you having?
GB: Army training sort of thing, yeah, we were getting fit and all that sort of thing, yeah, yes.
CB: Yeah. A lot of marching?
GB: Yeah, yeah, quite a good bit of marching.
CB: And then live firing of ammunition?
GB: No, no, we never had any firing at all.
CB: What were they training you up for to do?
GB: They were training us for the, we went to [unclear], it was the 893 AMES Air Ministry Experimental Station, that’s right.
CB: Oh, what did that do then?
GB: That was a mobile radar.
CB: Whereabout?
GB: We did that down in Dorset, there was one there.
CB: Ah, there was one there, was it?
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, were you effectively part of a defence, like airfield defence, is that, was that the job?
GB: No, we had separate people on our course that were for defence
CB: RAF regiment, yes. Right.
GB: RAF regiment sort of thing, yes. Anyway, we went from there to up to Scotland to get on the boat for North Africa.
CB: Right. Where was that? Glasgow?
GB: I think it was Glasgow.
CB: And where did you sail to?
GB: Algiers. On the way there the ship being [unclear] broke down, so we had to leave the convoy and they sailed on, they got it started again, woke up one morning and we were on our own. But we could see the destroyer over the far distance [unclear] far behind that, looked after us, that sort of thing. But we caught up eventually.
CB: Did you?
GB: Yeah.
CB: What went wrong with the ship then?
GB: I don’t know, they didn’t say much, you don’t know, you hear all sorts of things. They said the gaffer or the ship captain got recommendation for getting it going again.
CB: Was this an old holiday liner or was it a special troop ship?
GB: No, [unclear], it was a special troop ship.
CB: Right. How many people on the ship?
GB: Don’t know, I wouldn’t know, there’s no end of them.
CB: Did you get a bunk or a hammock?
GB: Hammock, yeah.
CB: What time of year was this? In the winter or the summer or?
GB: I couldn’t tell you. I can’t even remember the date of the invasion there.
CB: No. North Africa.
GB: Yeah.
CB: 1942.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Ok, so you got to Algeria,
GB: Yes.
CB: Then what?
GB: We had to, wait our turn to get into the port and all that sort of thing cause there was quite a lot there of course, all the Americans were there as well and we had to put up in the, built up a marquee in the zoological gardens in Algeria until we got our kit cause we had to wait about a week or two before we got it.
CB: Then?
GB: Eventually we got our kit, got on the road and we went as far as, into Tunisia I think, I’m just trying to think of the name of the place, Setif, but I don’t think it’s that name now, they’ve changed them, cause they were all French names, weren’t they? Now they’ve changed them all
CB: Right. This was in the back of a truck.
GB: Yes.
CB: How come, where was that?
GB: I got used to that sort of thing. They asked for volunteers to drive them
CB: But you could drive.
GB: I never, I could drive but I never volunteered, cause it was too dodgy,
CB: In what way?
GB: [unclear] you know,part road and all sorts of things. Anyway, we got as far as Setif and whether the Germans had made a push, we had to come back quick, I suppose because they were afraid that we’d get captured and they get all our stuff, cause I don’t think there was any other [unclear] like us about those days.
CB: You were all RAF people, weren’t you?
GB: Yes.
CB: How many, roughly?
GB: Roughly I suppose fifty or sixty.
CB: Yeah, the same fifty, yeah.
GB: Yeah, yeah. Cause we had to offer a day and night sort of thing. Anyway, we went back to Algiers and put up the stuff there, yes, we [unclear] from there.
CB: What were you doing in that time?
GB: You know the aerial, I suppose that
CB: For the radar.
GB: Yeah. Those days to move the aerial you had to turn the handle, that was my job, turn the handle at the aerial.
CB: Was this a constant movement as a sweep?
GB: Oh yes, yes, backwards and forwards, they had a barrel in there where all the kit was and they’d ring it, you carry on, when they ring it again, you turn it back sort of thing and you had to keep doing that until they got the two, I suppose the two planes together sort of thing, yeah. It was quite, you know.
CB: You got quite strong in your muscles, did you, arm muscles. What sort of, how did that work on the shifts for that?
GB: We had three shifts, three eight-hour shifts. And you, you know, you did all the [unclear] shift sort of thing.
CB: So, when you weren’t winding the thing round, what were you doing?
GB: It was a full-time job really.
CB: Oh, it was.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Day and night if there were three shifts.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, what happened next? Was this a portable radar?
GB: I suppose really that was the first mobile radar there was.
CB: Yeah.
GB: Yes.
CB: So
GB: I think the Yanks used to come and visit. You know, [unclear] men come and visit to see what it was all about. But I got [unclear] well, I’d say mood, I got a bad chill and we didn’t have a doctor, we only had a first aid man
CB: Medical orderly
GB: Medical, yeah, and the thought I got pleurisy, cause they [unclear] me into hospital and of course none of the hospital would take because none of them had got the separate
CB: They needed an isolation room to take you
GB: Yes, I think I went nearly [unclear] for a year. Come back to all years now they, I managed to find one
CB: And what had you got? What were you suffering from?
GB: I don’t know, I was there for about a month
CB: Clearly more than a cold.
GB: I don’t think that it was anything more than a cold.
CB: Where did you go next? Back towards Tunisia?
GB: No, no, while I was away, while I was in hospital, they moved, I think they went to Sicily and I don’t know whether it was right or not but I was told that the ship that they were on got bombed, what happened I don’t know after that. But I went back to the, oh, [unclear] forward maintenancy unit.
CB: Ok. What happened there?
GB: Well, we followed the army, you know, into Tunisia.
CB: Yeah.
GB: Until they packed up and I went back to Algiers and finished the tour there.
CB: Doing what?
GB: General duties again.
CB: In, same place in Algeria, was it?
GB: Yes, with the
CB: But you had no radar by then because it had been moved, had it?
GB: Oh yes, they took, the whole lot went.
CB: How busy were you kept during general duties when they took you back to, when they kept you in Algeria? Were you busy or not?
GB: I think I spent most of my time on the sergeant’s mess, being in charge of the sergeant’s mess.
CB: And you had
GB: And we had Italian prisoners there doing [unclear] so we didn’t have to work.
CB: Ah right. So, what rank were you by now?
GB: LAC.
CB: LAC in the sergeant’s mess. So, what were your job then with the Italian prisoners?
GB: To see that they did the work, that was all.
CB: Who spoke Italian?
GB: No one [laughs]
CB: Nobody. So how did you communicate?
GB: I don’t know, we made them understand sort of thing, yeah, [unclear] supposed of you [unclear], no, no, no
CB: And were they willing workers or?
GB: There were some who were a bit dodgy but most of them, you had to watch them though
CB: Why?
GB: They’d nick anything, yeah, I remember one chap I caught, he got the tablecloth wrapped round him, so I discharged [unclear] [laughs]
CB: So, apart from nicking tablecloths, what else did they pinch?
GB: [unclear] as well because you couldn’t, you never had a clue really
CB: Yeah. So, when are we here now, what’s the date we are talking about now, when you are looking after the Italians?
GB: It must have been, I must have been there three years then. I was there three and a half years altogether
CB: Were you?
GB: Yeah. So that’d be towards the end of when I was there. When I got me demobbed from there.
CB: Oh, did you? So, the war was finished, the war finished, did
GB: No, I didn’t. I didn’t get me demobbed from there, we came home, now I went to Leicester East,
CB: Yeah.
GB: They were getting prepared for the victory parade and they had all the cars and lorries and that to do all ready for the victory parade.
CB: So, this is May 1945.
GB: Yes.
CB: So, what did they get you to do?
GB: I was working in the SWO’s office
CB: Were you? And what would you do in there with him?
GB: Paperwork, I suppose, mostly, yeah.
CB: So, how long were you at Leicester East?
GB: Until I was demobbed there.
CB: Yeah. You were demobbed from there?
GB: Yeah.
CB: And when was that?
GB: I haven’t a clue, really. Anyway, I got my demob and I went home, I got another three months leave, you know, two or three months, I don’t know how long it was and there was nothing there for me to do. I could have me job back but I didn’t want it, so I re-joined again and when I re-joined, I got a job, I got a job that they asked me if I wanted, it was behind the bar at the officer’s mess, at the record’s office, Gloucester.
CB: Are ye?
GB: We were stationed at
CB: Innsworth
GB: That’s right, yeah. I was in there for, cause I signed up for four years
CB: Ah, right.
GB: But, the end of the four years, they delayed releases for twelve months, I counted the, what war was on?
CB: The Korean war.
GB: Was it Korea? Yes, that’s right, yeah, they delayed the release so I had to do five years
CB: What rank were you at this stage?
GB: Corporal.
CB: Did you come back in as a corporal?
GB: Yeah.
CB: You left as a corporal, did you, at demob?
GB: No, no, I didn’t,
CB: Ah.
GB: No, I come back as a corporal, yeah.
CB: Right.
GB: And that’s where I met my better half. She was in the officer’s mess service.
CB: At Innsworth?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So you were both behind the bar or what was she doing?
GB: No, she was in the officer’s.
CB: In the administration, was she?
GB: That’s right, yeah.
CB: So, when are we talking about now, 1951?
GB: A bit before that.
CB: ‘50.
GB: Yes, a bit before then, yes. Because I got married, she left the forces and I got married in 1948.
CB: Oh. When you were still in.
GB: I was still in, yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok, so then what?
GB: I was there for five years.
CB: Yeah. But, what about accommodation? Did they give you a quarter or what did they do, they didn’t have any quarters.
GB: They didn’t have any quarters.
CB: No.
GB: The wife stopped at her home.
CB: At. Which was where?
GB: At Eaton, in Wragby, it’s not far from here
CB: Wragby
GB: In Eaton
CB: Yeah. Right.
GB: It’s about five miles from here. Yeah.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, you just go and see her at weekends.
GB: Yes, every other weekend I was off, come and see her.
CB: Right, so, how did you manage to travel around? What was the transport arrangement in those days?
GB: Trains, yeah.
CB: Did you get a travel warrant or did you?
GB: Yes, yes.
CB: Cause you were underage, were you? Under twenty-five. No, you weren’t, no. So, you payed for your own travel.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Ok, so you came, you did your full five years because of the extension of one year,
GB: Yeah.
CB: What did you do after that? You didn’t sign on again,
GB: No.
CB: So you went to civilian life.
GB: Well, we got the club, worked in a club at, blimey.
CB: What sort of club?
GB: Working men’s club.
CB: Working men’s, right. Cause your experience behind the bar
GB: Yeah
CB: They found that useful, did they?
GB: Yes.
CB: Right. Whereabouts in the country was that?
GB: I’m just trying and think now, blimey, Jonathan, where was
CB: Was it round here?
GB: No, no, no. You worked with the Oxford, what’s the name? [unclear]
US: [unclear] Green.
GB: No, I don’t think.
CB: Not the place, I tell you.
US: Place or [unclear] company.
CB: I tell you what, let’s do it a different way, you demobbed originally from Leicester East, when you did your four years and added one to make five years, you were demobbed, where were you demobbed from? Cause you were at Innsworth, so, where were you demobbed?
GB: I can’t remember, to be honest.
CB: So I’m thinking that perhaps the demobbed point guided you to certain jobs.
GB: No, no, no.
CB: How did you find this job?
GB: Well, I looked in the, I used to take the daily paper for the pubs.
CB: Oh, right.
GB: So, I found the job. Oh, yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, how long did you work there?
GB: I was there about three years before I got a better job.
CB: Yeah, which was what?
GB: There was another club at Maidstone in Kent.
CB: Maidstone, right.
GB: Yes.
CB: What was that club?
GB: It was originally a liberal club but I think that [unclear] anyone could join
CB: Right. And how long did you work there?
GB: I suppose I was there about four years.
CB: Then what?
GB: Then the wife was expecting so we had to get out and I got a job at Morton in Surrey. Bar manager.
CB: What sort of accommodation did you have? Did they provide accommodation with these jobs or did you have to rent outside?
GB: Well, I first, the pub, the club at Maidstone had a, above the club was house
CB: A flat.
GB: Yeah. But, when I went to Morton, they offered me accommodation, you know, temporary sort of thing until I found somewhere myself, which I did.
CB: Did you buy a house, or did you rent one or what did you do?
GB: No, I bought it,
CB: Right.
GB: [unclear], you know.
CB: Was that your first house?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Yes. So, what sort of job was it, as the manager?
GB: It’s a busy job, cause it’s a big pub. Had a ballroom, you know, they used to do midday lunches and all that sort of thing, parties at night.
CB: How long did you keep going on that job?
GB: Oh, until the boss retired, they had a new pub built down in, blimey, here we go again. On the Thames, what sort of [unclear] I can’t think of the name.
CB: Lots of places on the Thames.
GB: Yeah.
CB: So, how many years do you think you were at Morton roughly? How many years were you there or when did you move [unclear]?
GB: Oh, not long, I wasn’t there very long.
CB: Oh, weren’t you?
GB: Yeah, no.
CB: So, you sold the house and moved somewhere else.
GB: I fell out with the boss, the wife got yellow jaundice and she had to go to hospital and the boss said, I got four children then, you’d have to put the kids in a home, and I said, sod that, I’m not going to put my kids in a home, so I packed the job in and we came over to her, place in Eaton, temporarily and I got a job at Plessey’s in Towcester.
CB: Ah, right. You sold the house at Morton and bought one up here, did you?
GB: Oh yes, yes,
CB: In Eaton.
GB: I sold that and I went to, I can’t think of the name of the [unclear] place, no good at [unclear]
CB: Yeah, ok. And Eadon spelled EYDON. Right? And then you joined Plessey. So, what did you do at Plessey?
GB: Making computers or parts of them
CB: Yeah?
GB: Yeah.
CB: What was your role?
GB: Pardon?
CB: What was your job?
GB: On the machines, machines [unclear], we were operating the machines
CB: So, what were the machines doing, making printed circuits or assembling them?
GB: No, making the
CB: Switch gear?
GB: Making the small, they were like small, very small [unclear] of different, I don’t know what sort, different minerals, they were ground and punched together sort of thing and we had to test them.
CB: Right.
GB: See if they were [unclear] or the machines tested them, we had to run the machines, all massive amount [unclear] into millions
CB: Ah really?
GB: Yeah. Some of them you had to have the telescope to see what was going on, on in the machines sort of thing.
CB: Yeah. So what
GB: I was there about, I was there until Plessey packed up and I had to, I got a job on making rolling tubes, steel tubes
CB: Oh yeah? In Northampton or
GB: No, in Towcester
CB: In Towcester.
GB: Yes. And I stopped there until I retired.
CB: What age did you retire?
GB: Sixty-five.
CB: Right. And when did you move to Weston?
GB: It was before I got my job at Plessey’s.
CB: Oh, was it?
GB: Yeah. It’ll be fifty years ago next month.
CB: That you moved here. This house here, next door?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Then in retirement what did you do?
GB: In the garden [laughs].
CB: Cause you’ve got quite a bit of land. Did you do it all by hand or did you have a rotavator or?
GB: I’ve got a rotavator
CB: Right. And what was your specialty in growing?
GB: [unclear] [laughs] no, all sorts.
CB: Did you have a favourite?
GB: Not really.
CB: Plant or fruit?
GB: No, no.
CB: And after a bit, that got a bit too much, so you got somebody else to do it, did you?
GB: No, no, I’m still doing it.
CB: Oh, you’re still doing it?
GB: Yeah.
CB: Fantastic and you’re ninety-five.
GB: I had to get someone this last summer to do it because I couldn’t do anything. I was so bad that they took me round to see different houses, they wanted to rehome me.
CB: Oh, did they?
GB: Yeah, [unclear] always that sort of thing that I pulled through.
CB: Your hands are not up to it any longer.
GB: No.
CB: No.
CB: Right. Sounds like you’ve done it brilliantly well
GB: [unclear] do it, yeah.
CB: Yeah, amazingly active. That’s what kept you going. So, the final question, what, to what do you attribute your long life at ninety-five?
GB: Just luck, that’s all. Cause my wife was a better woman than I was. And she went quicker. Yes.
CB: Yeah. After the children grew up, did she work herself?
GB: Yes, she did a bit of work, yes, she was at, here we go again, blimey
CB: What sort of job did she do?
GB: Office work.
CB: But she wasn’t also at Plessey with you?
GB: No.
CB: She was somewhere else.
GB: Yes, yes.
CB: Ok. And she died in 2000, sixteen years ago.
GB: Yeah.
CB: Well, Gerald, thank you very much indeed. That was most interesting and the different things. What would you say, actually there is another question, what would you say was the most memorable thing in your role in the RAF? Something that stands out.
GB: I suppose, really was the invasion of Algiers, really. See the working to get us cracking sort of thing.
CB: Good, thank you. [file missing] So, what we didn’t do, what we didn’t do, Gerald, was to find out your return journey from Africa, where you set off from and where you landed and what happened to you.
GB: I haven’t a clue, really.
US: You told me, I remember talking to [unclear]
GB: Coming home, oh yes.
CB: Yes, coming home, which route did you take and what happened?
GB: We travelled by boat from Algiers to Naples, then we’ve come from Naples all up Italy through Switzerland to France, France to [unclear] coast and we landed at, blimey, here we go again,
CB: Newhaven.
GB: Newhaven, yes.
CB: And what was that experience like?
GB: A bit rough [laughs]
CB: Was it? In what way, did it stop at the start or did it?
GB: No, yes, roughly didn’t stop at all sort of thing [laughs]
CB: How did they look after you, was a troop train with, it wasn’t just RAF, was it?
GB: Different stages
CB: Right
GB: They had stops at different stages but
CB: Was it the same train all the time or did you switch?
GB: As far as I know because they changed engines, I don’t know.
CB: So how many days did that take?
GB: It was a fortnight.
CB: So, where did you sleep?
GB: On the train, of course. We will be going night and day sort of thing.
CB: And what about eating?
GB: We used to stop to eating, there were different places, they got, you know, they’d organised places to stop
CB: So, what did they do, pull the train off the main line, into a siding, so that you could eat, where they had some kind of military kitchen?
GB: I suppose that’s what it was, I can’t remember really, I suppose [unclear] more than we rather than things that were going on really.
US: I wondered on that journey you were going through Europe that had been bombed and was war torn, I just wonder what you saw and whether you were surprised at what you saw because you’d been where you were all the time.
GB: Not really, no.
US. And the train kept going, it wasn’t the trains were bombed or destroyed.
GB: Well, it was a bit dodgy, going over the river Po, I think it was, in Italy, it was a bit shaky there, that was the only thing that I remember, really.
US: Were you looking out on ruins at the cities and things?
GB: Not really, no, no,
US: What about France, did that look intact?
GB: No, no, I can’t remember anything but
CB: A fortnight’s a long time to have on a train, what did you with yourselves all that time? Apart from sitting there. Did you play cards? Did you?
GB: No, I never have played cards
CB: Just talked or slept.
GB: Or, oh yeah.
US: Do you remember what your feeling about England was when you got back? Did it look different or did it feel different at all or?
GB: Oh, it felt lovely coming back, how green it was after been out in North Africa, yeah.
CB: And being a country boy, you particularly appreciated that
GB: Yeah, yeah
CB: So, when you got back, then did you go, you can’t have gone straight to Leicester East, where did you go before you went to Leicester East?
GB: [unclear]
CB: What I’m saying is did they have a reception centre for the whole train?
GB: I’m sorry I really can’t remember.
CB: We’ll stop again there, thank you. [file missing] so, when you got back to Britain, and you had the opportunity to see family, how did you feel having been away for so long?
GB: I don’t know, I suppose I expected, I saw what I expected, nothing different really.
US: Were you, when you got home, were you excited or were you very tired or?
GB: No, I don’t think so, no.
US: And were your family asking you a lot about what you’d seen? No?
GB: No, they weren’t that interested, really, I suppose they’d had all the others come back and they heard it all sort of thing, cause all me three brothers, all were in the forces, they’d all come back alright,
CB: That was good.
GB: Yeah.
CB: And did you compare notes with them?
GB: One didn’t want to know anything about it, that was the one that joined the navy, he [unclear] he was with, he was on the HMS Howe I think it was [unclear] in the Far East, he didn’t think much of that. The other brother that was in the [unclear], he went missing and mom had a letter saying he was missing, he turned up alright and he’d never, I’d never heard him say a word about the army or anything, he never mentioned it, the other, the oldest brother was [unclear] on the army service corps, he was full of it, anywhere he went, you know, he enjoyed it sort of thing, he was [unclear] on of those
US: Was there a celebration that you got home safely?
GB: No, no, I didn’t stop at home that long, really
US: Were you already thinking about what you wanted to do with the rest of your life?
GB: I know I wasn’t go to stop at home, [unclear], no. Trouble is, I’d heard so many things from different chaps, how they’d got on, what sort of jobs they’d had, I thought, I must have some of that [laughs]
CB: And then after the war, how often did you speak about the war to other people?
GB: Not a lot, I don’t have much to say about it anyway.
US: Do you, when you look back at the whole of your life, is that, that chapter, the war years, is that very memorable, is that quite a big part of your experience? No?
GB: I forget that, yeah.
CB: So what was the
GB: I really think it was a waste really
CB: A waste of your [unclear] life?
US: Was it not an important part of your life?
GB: No.
US: [unclear]
CB: What would you say was the worst experience you had, during your military service?
GB: I don’t think I had any, of worst experiences, I was just, [unclear] to muddle through sort of thing.
CB: I was thinking, when you got to, you moved from Algeria along the coast to Tunisia, then found the Germans were actually coming back,
GB: Yeah.
CB: How did you feel about that, did that seem dangerous or did they not get close enough to you to?
GB: I don’t think, they didn’t get, they wouldn’t let [unclear] to us
CB: Because of what you’d got
GB: Because what we’d got
CB: You’ve got this radar, yeah.
GB: Yeah.
US: I’ve got one last question, is did you make friends in the RAF that you kept afterwards? Did you keep up with people?
GB: Not for long really, just for a little while, we got, you know, [unclear] the other sort of thing but it soon fell through, yeah.
CB: A number of people in their initial training found friends for life. You didn’t do that, but did you get a good friend who started with your initial training and then moved on with you during their [unclear] service?
GB: No, no, I met several that had done, I’d done the training with, you know, various times sort of thing
CB: Yeah
GB: Trouble is you never knew when you were moving so you couldn’t make too many friends.
US: Ok. I just wondered whether there was ever a moment for you, perhaps at the start, where you knew you were going off fighting for king and country and that meant something to you and was important to you?
GB: No, I’m afraid not, no. No, as I say, I never was ambitious.
US: Did you agree that the war needed to be fought to stop Hitler?
GB: Oh, well, yes, yes, yes.
US: And you agreed that you needed to be part of that, you needed to join up to be part of that fight?
GB: I was trained up, [unclear] called up, yeah, no, I wouldn’t have volunteered, I don’t think.
US: And were you with a lot of people who felt the same way that you were there because you had to be, not because you believed in it?
GB: Yeah, I think a lot of people, yeah, I think a lot of people missed doing what they liked to do sort of thing didn’t understand of doing what they had to do
US: When it came in your life at the start of what would otherwise have been the beginning of your working life
GB: Yeah
US: It got in the way
GB: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t really, even before the war, there wasn’t much to look forward to in that, you know, in that of the country, so, I suppose, really, I was glad it brought me out of it, yes.
CB: What it did was take you out of Norfolk, put you into another part of the country
GB: Yes.
CB: And you’ve always been happy in this area presumably
GB: Yes, yeah, yes. Yes, I’ve been lucky really, I’ve had four good boys, I had a good wife, can’t ask for much more really
CB: Well, no, I think [unclear], extremely good. Did your wife and you speak about the war at all?
GB: No, not really, no, no, I don’t suppose we ever sat and had a talk about it, no.
US: Do you have any idea what her war was like?
GB: Well, I don’t think she moved around much, no.
US: Did she make good friends with the people she worked with?
GB: Oh yes, yes, she is much more friendly than what I am, [unclear]
US: And did she keep those friends after the war?
GB: Yes, I suppose she did, yeah, much more than what I did, mostly because they were all round here sort of thing and she was round here.
CB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gerald Walter Bell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABellGW161221
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:09:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Gerald Bell worked on a poultry farm before being called up in the RAF, where he served as ground personnel. He remembers his training at RAF Finningley and RAF Balderton. Tells of his posting to North Africa in 1942, where he initially was working on a mobile radar station. After falling sick and spending a month in hospital, he went back to Algeria, where he was in charge of the sergeant’s mess and had to look after a group of Italian prisoners.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Great Britain
North Africa
Tunisia
Algeria--Algiers
England--Dorset
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1945
ground personnel
prisoner of war
radar
RAF Balderton
RAF Finningley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/46/MemoroDE 14947.1.mp3
b9a1d1a023b500101b49561eb5b9c0a9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Am 7, am 7. Oktober wurde ja Dresden ‘s erste Mal bombardiert, und ich hatte eigenartige Weise an dem Tag irgendwie Angst und meine Mutti sagte “ach ich schäle jetzt noch Kartoffeln weil wenn Vollalarm, nach’m Vollalarm können wir ja wieder hoch”. Und ich ging da mit meinem Bruder runter und traf unten einen Jungen aus unserem Haus, der genauso alt war wie ich, also zehn Jahre, und sagte, “Du geh doch bitte mit in Keller, ich hab heute irgendwie so Angst”, und da sagte er “nein das darf ich nicht, ich muss zu meiner Oma und zu meinem kleinen Baby Schwesterchen” und ich hab wirklich gekämpf, wie um sein Leben, “bitte geh doch mit und so weiter, dann lass Dich halt mal von Deiner Oma schimpfen, aber Du gehst jetzt mit”, “nein, ich darf des nicht”. Und der Junge ist dann leider auch ums Leben gekommen, weil er hinterher mir dann Vorwürfe gemacht hat, hätte ich ihn mir dort fester angehalten. Als dann dieser fürchterliche Brand, ne Sprengbombe war’s, in die vierstöckingen Haüser runterkam, war erstensmal ein fürcherlicher Staub, trotzdem kam Staub rein, und dann hiess es, also über den Schutthaufen können wir nicht gehen, vor allem nicht wir Kinder, da gab’s Durch, einen Durchbruch, aus Ziegelsteinen nehme ich an, und da war, war daneben gestanden eine Riesen Wanne, das musste immer der Schutz, dass musste der Schutzwart musste immer hinstellen mit frischem Wasser, und Hacken [?] und Beile zum durchschlagen, und wir mussten auch alle immer ein [sic] Bademantel dabei haben, oder ein Handtuch, damit wir dann den Staub weghalten konnten von unserer [sic] Mund und Nase. Und dann sind wir durch den Durchbruch, es war also ganz komisches Gefühl, in ‘ne fremdes Haus und dann noch einmal durch in Durchbruch und dann kam man auf eine ganz anderen Strassenseite, kam man dann raus und wir liefen dann nach Dresden Neustadt und meine Mutti hatte den Bademantel an und ich hab mich geschämt und sagte “zieh doch den Mantel aus, was sollen den die Leute denken am, am, am Sonnabend Mittags mit Bademantel” und meine Mutti sagte “ist mir alles gleich, Hauptsache weg, Hauptsache weg von Dresden”. Und, und ganz eigenartig ist, was ich auch noch manchmal überleg, meine Enkelin, die ist auch am 7. Oktober geboren, 1990, und da dachte ich mir, eigentlich, wenn’s, wenn’s nach meiner Mutti gegangen wär, waren wir ja gar nicht in Keller, wäre ich eigentlich auch da gestorben, am 7. Oktober. Und da haben wir eben erst vor kurzem wieder debattiert, eigenartig, 7. Oktober.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gerda Gentner
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:03:08 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#14947
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Gerda Gentner (b. 1934) recalls the first bombing of Dresden on 7 October 1944. Gerda describes how she unsuccessfully tried to persuade a young boy to take shelter with her in the basement and reminisces her feeling when she knew that he had died as result of his determination not to abandon his grandmother. Recollects the explosion of a bomb which shattered the house and describes how she and his mother emerged in city changed beyond recognition, still wrapped in bath robes used to protect from dust. Emphasises the coincidence of her granddaughter being born the same day.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nikolai C C Schulz
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/315/Memoro 2232.2.mp3
fdc8ddbb5a85aed3b5dad73bd4b97102
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
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GK: [part missing in the original file] dann fange ich an mit unser Evakuierung in das Altmühltal zur Schwester meiner Mutter.
Unknown interviewer: Im Jahre?
GK: Im Jahre, ich war drei Jahre alt, dann war das 1942. Da gingen hier die Luftangriffe so stark an eben und des war nicht mehr erträglich vor allem mit kleinen Kindern. Ja gut, dann kamen wir zu der Tante, die wohnte eben in dieser [unclear] Beamtensiedlung und wir haben da zwei kleine Zimmer bekommen mit’m Kanonenofen und [pauses] und hatten aber nur die wichtigsten Sachen dabei den wir sind da eben mit dem Metzgerwagen hinten drauf gefahren und haben nur Bettzeug warscheinlich mitgenommen. Das war natürlich alles sehr beengend nach der Wohnung in München und es ging dann los mit Essenskargheit und meine Mutter war also, da hat sich entwickelt zu einer Organisatorin das war toll den man musste ja da, es gab ja Lebensmittelmarkt übrigens da wurden ja so kleine Abschnitte weggeschnitten und da gabs Zuteilungen, eben Mehl oder Zucker oder was grade vorhanden war. Und es gab einen Kanal mit Apfelbaümen die haben irgend wen dort gehört das weiss ich nicht und wenn Gewitter war da sind wir dann nachts hin und haben die Äpfel hochgehoben, eingesammelt und dann wurde Apfelkompott oder Apfelstrudel gemacht..
UI: Also nur das Fallobst oder auch gepflückt?
GK: Nein das Fallobst. Es wurde dann schon immer schlimmer, den das wurde immer mehr eingeschränkt, die Milch war zugeteilt für Kinder, wie viel wenig und sie war Magermilch hieß das damals. Wir gingen dann fast jeden Tag in den Wald, meine Tante, meine kleine Kusine und ich, und meine Mutter und wir haben Milchkannen mitgenommen, da wurden Beeren reingepflückt, Erdbeeren, Blaubeeren, dann wurden Pilze gesucht und nebenbei musste man die ganzen Tannenzapfen aufheben, die nicht so wie heute sondern die waren sehr rar weil alle Leute Tannenzapfen gesucht haben und so kleine Holzstückchen, und da kamen wir so gegen Mittag nach Hause so mit einen kleinen Rucksack mit Tannenzapfen, Milchkannen mit Beeren, und dann noch Körbchen mit Pilzen und das wurde dann gekocht und die Beeren mit Magermilch angerührt und vermischt und es war eine köstliches Essen. Und dann am Brennholz hat’s auch gemangelt und da wurde meine Mutter immer rabiat, die ist dann tagsüber in den Wald gegangen, hat sich die Baüme angeschaut, hat die nachts umgehackt und wenn’s sehr dunkel war dann ist sie mit meinem Bruder der neun Jahre älter eben war in den Wald und dann haben die die Baüme heimgezogen heimlich und das war natürlich alles verboten aber es blieb nichts anderes übrig. Nur in meiner Erinnerung weil ich ja so klein war alles, es war wunderbar, das Essen hat köstlich geschmeckt, die Ideen die sie hatte, heute verwendet man Fett da hat sie Magermilch verwendet ich weiss gar nicht wie das alles ging aber es war köstlich und mich gewundert dass ich so schöne Erinnerungen habe..
UI: Die Tannenzapfen als Brennholz.
GK: Als Brennholz, ach so die haben wir nicht gegessen.
UI: [unclear]
GK: Ja, dann hat mich gewundert wie das in der Luft lag daß es immer in Munchen viel schöner ist aber es hat mich doch immer ein Bisschen beeinträchtigt weil ich so dazwischen war, ich wusste ich gehörte dort nicht richtig hin und München kannte ich ja eigentlich gar nicht mehr und dann kam die Schulzeit und da habe ich auch gemerkt, ich bin irgendwie so außerhalb, das war nicht direct aber es war doch zu spüren und..
UI: [unclear] ein bisschen.
GK: Genau, die [unclear] ja. Und das war die Zeit noch mit strengen Unterricht, das waren Nonnen, die uns unterrichtet haben, Schwester Theobalda und die Schwester Gerbine und der Herr Benefiziat und der Herr Kaplan und die waren alle sehr eifrig im Strafen verordnen und des hiess Tatzen austeilen mit einem richtigen Weidenstock der so schon biegsam und ich war sehr brav, also ich war da verschont und eben, da gab es eben zwei Mädchen die etwas außerhalb der Norm waren und die waren sehr frech und ich glaub die haben sogar darauf angelegt die Lehrer zu ärgern und die mussten dann immer vortreten und die Hand hinhalten und die normalen Kinder die haben die Hand natürlich zurückgezogen aber diese Mädchen haben ihre Hand ausgestreckt, stolz, haben sich ihre Tatzen abgeholt und sind dann eben zurück, haben ihre Schultasche genommen und sind nach hause und sind tagelang nicht mehr aufgetaucht, denen war es völlig Wurst und den Eltern die wussten das warscheinlich gar nicht und ich hab die bewundert und wie gesagt ich hab dieses ehemalige Mädchen jetzt bei einem Klassentreffen wieder getroffen und die ist einfach toll, die war mutig und ist heute noch, hat ihr Leben gemeistert oder meistert’s immer noch, das find ich sehr schoön, den mutige Menschen sind was wunderbares.
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Title
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Interview with Gerlinde Keller
Description
An account of the resource
Gerlinde Keller (b. 1939) was evacuated in 1942 from Munich to the Altmühltal, where she lived with her aunt in a purpose-built settlement. Explains how the intensifying bombings had made the city unsafe for children and how they managed to cope with wartime hardships: gathering mushrooms, wild berries and pine cones to be used as firewood; collecting fallen apples from a nearby orchard to make compote and strudel. Describes how her mother and her older brother went covertly into the forest to cut down trees at night. Emphasises her mother’s creative efforts in coping with the difficult situation and how she enjoyed the food available, for example berries with skimmed milk. Mentions the strange feeling of not belonging to anywhere and remembers the strict atmosphere of a school run by nuns, where pupils were subjected to corporal punishments. Remembers the defiant attitude of two girls, who provoked the teachers and showed a sense of pride in being punished.
Format
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00:06:41 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#2232
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Munich
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Rights
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Language
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deu
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
home front
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/322/Memoro 12795.2.mp3
4ba0227091b7ec6da1147c19ba2e5c55
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
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GM: Come si stava? Si stava, si stava [pauses] male. A parte che tutte le sere bisognava, suonava l’allarme per l’incursione aerea, bisognava andare sotto i rifugi pero’ si stava veramente male ma anche nelle, come si dice, nelle masserizie. Allora c’era lo scambio allora se io c’ho la farina veniva da me a chiedere un chilo di farina diceva va be’ ma tu dammi i pomodori e i pomodori si si va bene c’ho i pomodori ma tu che me dai un bicchiere d’oio e cosi’. [part missing in the original file] Quartiere quando sono arrivato io c’era solo Santa Barbara poi c’era Piazza italia c’era il comune e la Casa del Fascio, quello che ora sarebbero i carabinieri e poi di qua’ di la’ c’era il palazzo di destra e il palazzo di sinistra e il villaggio vecchio, il resto era tutto campo e noi, siccome eravamo ragazzotti all’eta’ vostra, andavamo a giocare per i campi, e tanto e’ vero poi il fatto in contemporanea al mercato coperto qui allora la gente che succedeva? I mariti andavano a lavorare in fabbrica la mattina alle sette e le mogli si vestivano e venivano al mercato a far la spesa, a comprare la verdura, la frutta, il pane, la pasta, quello che c’e’. Che e’ successo? E’ successo che nei prati nei dintorni della piazza, siccome venivo da Santa Barbara diciamo [unclear] allora siccome strade gia’ c’erano, loro prendevano la scorciatoia e tagliavano a meta’ il campo e crearono il viottolo, a forza di passare oggi domani crearono il viottolo, e li’ ci furono diciamo ci fu una scissione, la scissione del campo dei piccoli e del campo dei grandi [unclear] al limite. Allora noi piccoli ,che eravamo piccoli, giocavamo sulla sinistra, dove adesso c’e’ il supermercato, invece i grandi giocavano sulla destra, dove c’era la strada [part missing in the original file] poi i genitori ci nascondevano tutto anche perche’ noi subimmo diciamo cosi’ lo shock dello scoppio del ’38 che fu una tragedia immane allora c’era rimasto talmente impresso che i nostri genitori erano talmente intelligenti che non ci facevano capire il momento in cui vivevamo che il pericolo c’era.
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Title
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Interview with Gianfranco Maffucci
Description
An account of the resource
Gianfranco Maffucci (b. 1930) remembers episodes of everyday life in wartime: bartering food, going into the shelter when the alarm sounded; men working in the factories while women going to market. Gives a detailed account of his neighbourhood: piazza Italia, the city hall and the local fascist headquarter. Describes how children used to play in the fields, using different areas according to their age groups. Mentions how parents tried to keep their children in the dark about everything that could potentially hurt them, being themselves still shocked by the 1938 explosion.
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:02:52 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#12795
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Language
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ita
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/326/Memoro 5754.1.mp3
f5d7be8666f1249eeac6fd181268d44f
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GN: Cesenatico, ci fu il primo bombardamento in aprile del, bombardamento notturno, aprile del 1944. Lo effettuò un certo Pippo, un bombardiere solitario che faceva le incursioni notturne. Dunque, quella notte venne a bombardare e commise un grave errore. Sbagliò la posizione che era da bombardare. Il suo disegno era probabilmente quello di bombardare la stazione ferroviaria. La stazione ferroviaria, i binari erano lontani dal punto che lui ha bombardato, che era il centro del paese, circa 150 metri. Abbiam pensato tutti che nella notte forse aveva bevuto un po’ troppo oltre ad aver preso di mira un punto sbagliato perché nel centro del paese non c’era proprio nulla da bombardare. Caddero tre bombe nel cortile, nel vasto cortile del palazzo delle scuole elementari dove noi dormivamo. Dopo dico il perché dormivamo nelle scuole elementari o se no lo dico subito, perché mio padre era il bidello delle scuole e avevamo l’apartamento dentro. Bene. Cadono le bombe, io pensate avevo undici anni, ho fatto fatica a svegliarmi, beata la bella dormita dell’undicenne, [laughs] e allora mi sveglio nel dormiveglia, mio padre era già in piedi, capivo che era in piedi, parlava con mia mamma, aprii gli scuri, c’erano gli scuri e allora c’era un gran polverone fuori. Mio padre, che aveva fatto la guerra del 15-18, questi rumori delle bombe aveva già capito cos’era accaduto nelle vicinanze. Cosa facciamo? Si sentivano dei lamenti in giro un po’ lontano, però noi ci mettiamo quel che si poteva mettere addosso, scendiamo con prudenza gli scalini che mancavano per arrivare al pianterreno, ci portiamo fuori sulla strada e siamo ospitati dal dirimpettaio che aveva già fatto un rifugio in cemento armato. Lì abbiamo parlato un po’ fra di noi, ai primi albori del giorno usciamo, ringraziamo e andiamo nelle scuole. Andiamo a vedere nel cortile. Eran proprio tre bombe. Una aveva colpito un pozzo, polverizzato. il nostro frigo non l’avevamo più, lì mettevamo i cocomeri al fresco. Santo cielo! Mi porto vicino alla profonda buca che era venuta fuori dallo scoppio, guardo verso le nostre finestre, mmh che sgomento! Ma come mai non abbiam preso nemmeno una scheggia? Qundici metri di distanza, dove dormivamo, nemmeno una scheggia, illesi. Allora era finito, andato tutto bene e io, appena ho potuto muovermi, ho voluto andare a vedere dove erano cadute le altre bombe. Ed erano cadute tutte diritte ecco perché abbiamo pensato che in una linea diretta così molto probabilmente lui voleva colpire la ferrovia.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gianfranco Nardi
Description
An account of the resource
Gianfranco Nardi (b. 1933) recalls the first bombing of Cesenatico in 1944, a night action carried out by 'Pippo'. Explains how the aircraft missed the train station and hit the nearby town centre; maintains that the pilot was drunk. Describes three bombs falling into the courtyard of the elementary school where her father worked as caretaker. Explains how the explosions didn't wake him up at first whereas his father, who served in the First World War, was immediately aware of what had happened. Tells how they stayed at the neighbours house that night, a family that had their own reinforced concrete shelter. Describes the damage done by the bombs and points out how lucky they were for escaping unharmed just 15 meters away from the crater.
Format
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00:04:18 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#5754
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Cesenatico
Temporal Coverage
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1944-04
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Language
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ita
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
Pippo
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/PMuratoriG160314.1.JPG
d025a0e5e087dd2fd35d9177353e109f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/113/1172/AMuratoriLG161125.1.mp3
7c8e7a4862d309778edec6e027bc9b61
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Muratori, Gino
Gino Muratori
G Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Gino Muratori who recollects his wartime experiences in Rimini.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-14
Identifier
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Muratori, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Daniele Celli: Oggi 14 marzo 2016, parliamo con Muratori Gino, classe 1929. Prima domanda che ti faccio.
Gino Muratori: Nato a Bellariva.
DC: Nato a Bellariva. Prima domanda che ti faccio è questa. Com’era composto il tuo nucleo famigliare quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento di Rimini. Quanti eravate in casa?
GM: Noi in casa eravamo mia nonna, mio nonno.
DC: Nonna materna?
GM: Materna.
DC: Materna.
GM: Nonna.
DC: E si chiama, te lo ricordi il nome, cognome e la classe, se ti viene in mente?
GM: Ostia, mio nonno dunque, è morto nel ’51 a 94 anni.
DC: E aveva 94 anni. Lui si chiamava?
GM: [clears throat] Gaspare.
DC: E di cognome?
GM: Angelini.
DC: Angelini.
GM: Angelini.
DC: Eh, sposato, eh, la sua moglie?
GM: La nonna si chiamava della Rosa che era parente qui dei della Rosa di Bellaviva.
DC: Di Bellaviva.
GM: E si chiamava Angela.
DC: E lei più o meno a che ora [unclear]?
GM: Dunque lei è morta a San Marino nel ’44.
DC: Ah lei è morta per il passaggio del fronte, tua nonna?
GM: Sì, è morta per il passaggio del fronte però di malattia perché lei.
DC: Tifo?
GM: No, lei, è venuto che, lei non ha voluto venir via da Rimini perché mia nonna, il primo bombardamento che ci han fatto, che han fatto a Rimini è morta una figlia sotto i bombardamenti.
DC: Ostia!
GM: Capito, una [clears throat] una figlia e una nipotina, hai capito.
DC: Lei stava di già ancora a San Martino quando c’è stato la guerra?
GM: No, no, no, mia nonna stava qui.
DC: Ah giusto, era nel nucleo con te.
GM: Erano già venuti giù loro da San Martino.
DC: Erano già venuti giù.
GM: Mia nonna dopo è stata tanti anni qui a Bellariva. Mia nonna aveva sette figlie, sette figlie femmine. Una stava a Riccione, una a Viserba e una
DC: No, quello, io voglio sapere quello del tuo nucleo famigliare.
GM: Il mio nucleo, c’era mio babbo che è stato anche in Germania, lui.
DC: Classe, il tuo babbo? Nome e classe.
GM: Mio babbo era del ’93.
DC: Del ’93.
GM: ’93.
DC: E si chiamava il tuo babbo?
GM: Ubaldo.
DC: Ubaldo. Sposato con?
GM: Con mia mamma Eucillia.
DC: Di soprannome, di cognome?
GM: Di cognome Angelini.
DC: Ah, Angelini, giusto. Angelini.
GM: Era una Angelini lei.
DC: E i figli? C’eri te e quanti?
GM: Io, Franco e Luciano.
DC: Franco di che classe era?
GM: Franco è del ’40, ’41 credo.
DC: E Luciano?
GM: Luciano è del ’26. E’ il più grande Luciano.
DC: Luciano è il più grande di tutti.
GM: E’ il più grande di tutti.
DC: Dimmi esattamente dove abitavate.
GM: Noi abitavamo in Via Pesaro
DC: Quindi?
GM: Numero 1, dove c’è la piscina dell’Oceanic.
DC: Sì.
GM: Lì c’era la casa dove eravamo noi.
DC: Via Pesaro 1. E quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento dicevi che la tua nonna
GM: Quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento mia nonna abitava Bellariva e io ero per un pelo che ci sono scappato, ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento, che io avevo un, lavoravo allora a Rimini facevo il meccanico dentista, no?
DC: Ostia!
GM: Pensa te [unclear]
DC: Con chi? Ti ricordi?
GM: Ah, con.
DC: Il dottor?
GM: Con Lazzarotto.
DC: Lazzarotto. E dove aveva il suo ambulatorio?
GM: Aveva l’ambulatorio giù per il corso. Avevo poi Marcello Drudi, lo conosci Marcello Drudi?
DC: Marcello...
GM: Drudi.
DC: Che fa il dentista
GM: Faceva il meccanico dentista.
DC: Sì.
GM: Dopo lui è andato a lavorare con il fratello del Lazzarotto che ha imparato il mestiere lì. E me son de fè fabbri da questo.
DC: [laughs] Le vabbe’ se continui ti lì
GM: [unclear]
DC: Oddio però anche un fabbro insomma.
GM: Sì. Dopo.
DC: Se entrava nel giro buono [unclear] stava bene. Era tutto un altro lavoro.
GM: E’ stato [unclear] Io dopo ho lavorato tanti anni da Fochi però dopo avevo tentato la scalata ma.
DC: [laughs]
GM: L’era sempre che la zente non aveva mai il soldo, paghè, l’era un casen te capì?
DC: Te mi, M’hai detto prima che durante il primo bombardamento, tua nonna ha perso due familiari?
GM: No, mia nonna sì, ha perso una figlia che era sposata, che aveva un albergo in via Cormons.
DC: Come si chiamava tua zia?
GM: [clears throat] Mia zia si chiamava Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: Aldina.
DC: Angelini Aldina.
GM: E la bambina si chiamava Anna. Siccome aveva sposato lei un Corbelli, sposata con un Corbelli.
DC: Quanti anni poteva avere quella bambina?
GM: Avrà avuto, [unclear] Dio Bono!
DC: Più o meno.
GM: Avrà avuto cinque anni. Avrà avuto cinque anni.
DC: Quindi loro abitavano in Via Cormons.
GM: Loro avevano la pensione Primavera in Via Cormons. Che è andata giù in pieno con una bomba, hai capito? Erano
DC: Primo bombardamento su quella zona.
GM: Perché lì è stato un trucco. Diciamo che han dato l’allarme e io con l’allarme ero proprio vicino alla Villa Rosa.
DC: Proprio sul, la via del filobus.
GM: La via del filobus.
DC: All’angolo quasi con Piazzale Kennedy.
GM: Dove è venuto giù il ponte dell’Ausa che han colpito. [clears throat] Io ero andato a rinnovare l’abbonamento perché era il giorno dei santi in [unclear]
DC: Il primo Novembre.
GM: La vedi qua che vedo oggi [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Quando ho rinnovato sto abbonamento e difatti vado là, era chiuso. Allora il filobus non c’era, mi sono incamminato a piedi e lì nel Viale Montegazza c’era una mia cugina che abitava e c’era suo figlio che era un ragazzino più piccolo di me che è andato, era lì vicino il Bar Ceschi, che adesso è i Duchi, peta che è il ristorente Chi Burdlaz.
DC: Sì.
GM: E’ lì che c’è. Lì tiravano, lui aveva una fionda che tirava i [unclear]
DC: [laughs]
GM:E allora abbiamo chiacchierato un po’ così e poi io mi sono incamminato e ho detto: ‘Andrei per trovare mia zia’, hai capito,
DC: Sono qui vicino.
GM: In Via Cormons, no, e appunto là c’è l’allarme adesso quando c’è il cessato allarme appena e difatti c’era un bus fermo vicino la Villa Rosa. Da il cessato allarme e m’incammino per il bus, il bus parte e arrivo a Bellariva.
DC: Fai in tempo di arrivare a Bellariva.
GM: Faccio in tempo a Bellariva che han dato, c’era l’allarme ancora e difatti.
DC: E quindi ha suonato due volte la mattina.
GM: Due volte. Han dato il cessato allarme e nel tragitto da Villa Rosa a Bellariva
DC: Altro allarme
GM: C’è stato un cessato allarme però il, quello che guidava con la sciampugnetta, hai capito,
DC: Certo.
GM: l’altro dritto, e io son venuto a casa. Quando son venuto a Bellariva avevano già sganciato le bombe lì a [unclear]
DC: Lì il rumore del bombardamento non l’hai avvertito.
GM: Io non l’ho sentito, s’è sentito, quando sono sceso si è visto solo sto fumo nero che veniva
DC: Dalla città. Dalla zona marina centro.
GM: Dalla zona marina centro. Ho detto, puttana madonna, l’è bumbardè, ah, ie bumbardè, bumbardè, [unclear] dicevano, no. E così è stato, allora.
DC: Sei tornato a vedere dopo lì?
GM: No, no, no, e dopo è tornato il mio babbo, è tornato a vedere, perché mia nonna fa: ‘Ma Dio bono, [unclear] bombardè la dàs marina centro’.
DC: Andè veder che bordello.
GM: E difatti la pensione è andata giù completo, lei con l’allarme era già, è uscita e poi è [unclear], ha fatto in tempo ad entrare in casa.
DC: Tracchete.
GM: Andè zò da cegerme adoss.
DC: E’ morta altra gente lì? E la pensione, c’era della gente dentro o erano tutti [unclear]?
GM: No, nella pensione c’era, è rimasta sotto solo lei e gli altri figli si sono salvati che c’era, è rimasta una scalinata in quella pensione che andava nella sala e c’erano come dei gradini, si vede che era di cemento e c’era come un tunnel, come un sottoscala.
DC: Si sono infilati lì sotto?
GM: E s’infila lì sotto
DC: [swears]
GM: Tre delle figlie e lì [unclear] hai capito e quello è stato un disastro perché hanno fatto nel primo acchito lì, hanno preso proprio la scia della Villa Rosa che hanno buttato giù il Ponte dell’Ausa e poi hanno colpito lì nella Via Fiume, nella Via Trieste.
DC: Sono arrivati fino laggiù al gasometro.
GM: Sì, il gasometro.
DC: Anzi, con le bombe Via Gambalunga.
GM: Sì, l’hanno compito il gasometro in pieno [unclear], quella volta, sì.
DC: Ho parlato con una signora che stava di casa vicino al gasometro. Ha detto: ‘Noi eravamo andati alla messa dai Paolotti in città. Mentre torniamo’, dice, ‘siamo arrivati davanti al duomo, suona l’allarme, siamo corsi nel palazzo [unclear] che c’era un rifugio antiaereo’.
GM: Sì.
DC: E si sono messi lì sotto. Dice: ‘Abbiamo sentito le vibrazioni del bombardamento’, perchè loro lì erano vicini. Ha detto: ‘Il mio babbo a me e a mio nonno ci ha lasciati da un collega di lavoro’, che era in ferrovia lui.
GM: Sì, sì.
DC: E lui è andato a vedere giù. Dice: ‘Io da quel giorno lì non sono più tornata a casa. Siamo andati da un’altra parte’.
GM: Ah sì sì.
DC: ‘Mia mamma era rimasta a casa a prepararci da mangiare, è rimasta sotto le macerie.’
GM: E dopo il secondo bombardamento.
DC: Il 26 di novembre.
GM: Di novembre, allora poi è successo che, c’era la miseria qui no, allora si cercava di prendere qualche soldo. Da Milano, quando c’è stato il primo bombardamento là nel [unclear].
DC: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati.
GM: Sono venuti un sacco di sfollati a Rimini. E allora...
DC: C’era gente anche qui a Bellariva che era venuta sfollata o erano in città, a Marina centro?
GM: Marina centro fino lì Via Pascoli c’erano tutti
DC: Erano tutti concentrati là.
GM: C’erano tutti quegli alberghi, quei due, perchè si contavano con le dita gli alberghi
DC: Sì non
GM: C’era l’Internazionale che era lì vicino, prima di Piazza Tripoli, era prima di Piazza Tripoli che avevano messo su lì una grande, dei grandi uffici di Milano e allora c’erano molti impiegati che lavoravano là. Avevano preso tutto loro l’albergo.
DC: Si era trasferita la ditta praticamente.
GM: Sì. Allora noi cosa abbiamo fatto? Io, Feruzzi e Zamagni andavamo alla fermata del filobus di Marina centro che scendeva la gente perché sull’Ausa non poteva passare la linea. Era interrotta.
DC: Era interrotta, perché c’era il ponte rotto.
GM: E noi con un velocino, andavamo a prendere le valigie.
DC: Facevate il trasbordo.
GM: Facevamo il trasbordo fino a Piazza Tripoli.
DC: E lì facevate [unclear]
GM: E da lì partiva l’altro bus che andava fino a Riccione e allora prendevamo
DC: [unclear]
GM: Dieci centesimi, venti centesimi, capito? [laughs] Un pomeriggio andavamo giù perché uno [unclear] era un [unclear] con delle ruote alte lì. Facevamo da cavallo e due salivano, hai capito? Un po’ per uno. Quando siamo a Piazza Tripoli vediamo le strisce in alto. Dio bono, gli apparecchi! Prendi ‘sta via.
DC: Non aveva suonato l’allarme quella volta?
GM: Non l’abbiamo sentito noi quel giorno lì, non l’abbiam sentito, abbiamo visto sti apparecchi, facevano tutto quel fumo dietro. ‘Gli apparecchi, dio bono, via, via, via!’ Giù in marina.
DC: Venivano dal mare? Te lo ricordi?
GM: No, venivano da monte.
DC: Da monte.
GM: Da monte.
DC: Quindi il secondo eh?
GM: Quel giorno lì, Il secondo bombardamento che noi andavamo verso
DC: Verso Riccione in quel momento
GM: Verso marina centro.
DC: Verso marina centro.
GM: Gli apparecchi, [unclear] zù in marene, la stanga pron e via, lascia [unclear] giù sotto la mura del lungomare.
DC: Del lungomare.
GM: Difatti, dio bono, venivan zù lì, [makes a booming noise] e cadono un sacco di bombe in acqua anche, no?
DC: Addirittura sono arrivati in mare quel giorno?
GM: Le bombe sono cadute anche in mare, allora noi tagliamo sulla spiaggia [unclear] andon zò verso Bellariva per mareina, però lì al direzione dei Angeli Frua, [unclear] l’Hotel Belvedere che è vecchio che è rimasto lì.
[dog barking]
DC: Tutto decrepito, quello che è ancora tutto messo male?
GM: Adesso come una volta.
DC: Sì.
GM: Però funziona ancora, funzionante, hai capito?
[Dog barking. Female voice: sta zitta.]
GM: Lì c’erano, sulla spiaggia c’erano i tedeschi con la contraerea, hai capito?
DC: Contraerea secondo te erano quelli...
GM: Che sparavano agli aerei.
DC: Ma canna o singola o quelle mitragliatrici...
GM: No c’erano le mitragliatrici a quattro canne, quattro canne.
Ui: Quelle da quattro canne, ho capito.
GM: E c’erano i reticolati fino ad un certo punto prima di arrivare nel mare, no, prima di arrivare sulla spiaggia. E allora c’erano i tedeschi [mimics angry screaming] te capì?
DC: Vi facevano andare via?
GM: Ci facevano segno, no? E noi quando hanno fatto segno ha detto: ‘Ma dai, tagliamo verso la ferrovia, andiamo giù per la ferrovia’.
DC: Guai.
GM: Guai.
DC: La ferrovia era
GM: Siamo andati giù in direzione [dog barking] della pensione, aspetta, lì c’è l’Audi, sai dov’è l’Hotel Audi. Vicino
DC: No adesso comunque, comunque dopo si ripiglia.
GM: L’Hotel Plata hai capito che adesso l’hanno chiuso perché era tutto scasinato lì.
DC: Quindi voi da lì avete preso...
GM: Abbiamo preso verso la ferrovia e la direzione, poco in là ci sono le officine.
[dog barking]
DC: Porca miseria, [laughs]
GM: E’ apparsa una formazione [speaks dialect], erano anche bassi, no, lì, bombardamenti [unclear] hanno fatto. Si me e Giorgio e [unclear]
DC: Giorgio chi, quello del distributore?
GM: Giorgio, no, era Giorgio Feruzzi, che adesso è morto lui.
Ui: Non ce l’ho presente.
GM: Quattro, cinque anni fa, dieci anni fa.
DC: Quindi siete andati in
GM: Era un mio collega, era un mio amico
DC: Coetaneo.
GM: Coetaneo, di, della stessa classe eravamo.
DC: Siete andati vicinissimi al ponte.
GM: Siamo andati lì, proprio lì [speaks dialect] finì, Dio bono. Allora dopo è passato sto bombardamento e siamo andati giù direttamente giù per la ferrovia e siamo arrivati a Bellariva, hai capito.
DC: L’antiaerea gli ha sparato a quegli aereoplani, secondo te ?
GM: Sì sì sparavano.
DC: Sparavano.
GM: Sì, sparavano, sì sì. E allora
DC: Erano aerei con quattro motori che c’avete guardato o no, erano alti?
GM: Non erano tanto, si vedevano, non erano quattro motori.
DC: Perché la prima volta mi hai detto che facevano le strisce.
GM: Sì, facevano le strisce.
DC: Perché dopo poi c’è stato un bombardamento anche il giorno dopo, il giorno successivo, grosso anche quello.
GM: Sì.
DC: In Novembre ce ne sono stati tre.
GM: Tre. C’è quell ch’è ste gross.
DC: Il terzo è stato grosso grosso.
GM: Ecco dopo lì, da quel bombardamento lì, sono andato a lavorare alla Todt, alla famosa Todt.
DC: Dov’era la sede della, dov’è che ti sei iscritto?
GM: La sede della Todt, niente come quando, di toi uperaio la Todt allora.
DC: Sì, ma dove sei andato te materialmente a[unclear]?
GM: Alla Maddalena, allora c’era la colonia Maddalena.
Ui: Colonia Maddalena, ah, a Marebello.
GM: Marebello, lì dalle colonie.
DC: Lì era la sede della Todt.
GM: Lì c’era, lì c’era, erano tutti i campi da grano quelli, no. C’era la colonia poi erano tutti i campi da grano, una casina in fondo. Si contavano con le dita le case lì. E c’erano tutti i camion [unclear] perché Maddalena era il centro dove facevano i cassettoni per le, per armare, il cemento armato, hai capito.
DC: I getti di calcestruzzo.
GM: Lì c’erano tutti i falegnami e la manodopera come noi, la mattina ci prendevano, prendevano
DC: Quindi quello era il punto di ritrovo e da lì vi portavano dove.
GM: Quello il punto di ritrovo. Tutte le mattine noi andavamo giù, lì facevano l’appello, hai capito, ti chiamavano, e poi salivi, si saliva sui camion che c’erano tutti autisti della
DC: Camion tedeschi o?
GM: Camion tedeschi.
DC: Tedeschi.
GM: Erano camion tedeschi che erano, gli autisti erano prigionieri
DC: Ucraini.
GM: Ucraini, erano tutti ucraini.
Ui: Polacchi, robe così.
GM: [unclear] Non erano armati nè niente. Avevano una divisa nera così e facevano, e ci portavano là.
DC: Eravate in molti a lavorare lì alla Maddalena?
GM: Eravamo in parecchi. La mattina andavamo giù perché dopo da là c’erano tre, quattro fortini che erano tirati giù dopo la guerra.
DC: Dove?
GM: Per togliere il ferro.
Ui: Dove ’là’?
Gm: Dopo il ponte, sai dov’è il Carlini che fann le barche?
Ui: Sì.
GM: Ecco, là.
DC: Là c’erano quei quattro fortini con i cannoni dentro?
GM: Eh, quelli lì.
DC: Quelli che guardavano il mare?
GM: Noi facevamo quelli.
DC: Quelli, lavoravi in quelli? Ma lo sai che c’ha lavorato anche il mio suocero?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Lui era di Viserba Monte.
GM: [unclear] lì lavoravano parecchi.
DC: Senti cosa mi ha raccontato lui, non so se questo lo puoi, c’era gente che lavorava che veniva anche da fuori. Lui m’ha detto:’Io lavoravo con uno di Bergamo, che aveva un bambino con lui’. Il figlio, perché si vede che non sapeva dove lasciarlo.
GM: Però dopo, la sede, si vede che c’erano dopo altri punti di riferimento per questa organizzazione.
DC: D’incontro. Lui mi sa che faceva dalla corderia.
GM: Ah dalla corderia, ho capito.
DC: Che era un altro coso grosso che usavano i tedeschi.
GM: Noi partivamo da là, dalla Maddalena e quando c’era l’allarme ci portavano a Viserba Monte. Ci caricavano, davano l’allarme, si andava in campagna perché non potevano.
DC: Quanti mesi hai lavorato con loro secondo te?
GM: Due mesi.
DC: Quindi sei arrivato?
Gm: Sì, a Dicembre, così mi sembra.
DC: Perché se hai detto dopo il bombardamento di fine novembre.
GM: Dicembre, gennaio.
DC: C’hai lavorato dicembre e gennaio probabilmente.
GM: Due mesi ho lavorato.
DC: Se, te hai lavorato sempre a quei fortini là a Rivabella.
GM: Sì, noi facevamo la calce praticamente ecco perché dopo tutto il legno venivano giù coi camion tutte ste cose già pronte, queste.
DC: Perché quelli erano grossi, quei fortini lì a Rivabella.
GM: [unclear] Erano grossi, sì, sì, erano grossi.
DC: Ho visto delle fotografie.
GM: Ce n’era uno anche qui.
DC: Hanno messo prima i cannoni dentro e poi gli hanno fatto il calcestruzzo, te ti ricordi?
GM: Quando hanno messo i cannoni io non.
DC: Te non c’eri.
GM: Io non c’ero più.
DC: Quindi prima [unclear]. Li hanno messi dentro dopo.
GM: Sì, dopo, dopo, li hanno messi dentro.
DC: Qui vicino
GM: Qui ce n’era uno più grosso, eh.
DC: Dove? Spiegami un po’, che mi interessa molto.
GM: Qui.
DC: Toh.
GM: Era ne, qui, sai dov’è il gas?
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui, c’è quella stradina che viene che c’è il divieto, lì, la prima strada.
Ui: Guarda, così guarda. Questa, allora questa è la ferrovia. Via Chiabrera.
GM: Chiabrera.
DC: Qui ci sono gli uffici del gas.
Gm: Del gas. Qui c’è
DC: E qui adesso c’è la rotonda.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dimmi un po’ dov’era?
GM: Qui c’ è la prima, la prima strada.
Ui: Sì.
Gm: Qui. Poi dopo, c’è la prima col semaforo, la seconda col semaforo.
DC: Sì.
Gm: La prima strada qui e il bunker era qui.
Ui: Ed era grosso quanto, secondo te?
Gm: Ah, era grosso.
DC: Una stazza così?
GM: Eh, anche più grande.
DC: Quindi questo era un bunker.
GM: L’hann buttato giù lì proprio quando sono venuto giù io.
DC: Questo è il gas.
GM: Qui
DC: Bunker.
GM: Quando sono venuto giù io dalla parte verso Riccione, l’hanno forato con due cannonate. C’erano proprio i
DC: I buchi.
GM: I buchi delle cannonate.
DC: Ma questo qui secondo te, doveva tenere un cannone o era più?
GM: Ma quello lì penso io che tenessero mitraglitrici credo.
Ui: Qui lungo la ferrovia, allora, [unclear] quello della frutta cinquanta metri più in qua attaccata alla ferrovia, un metro
GM: [unclear]
DC: Sì, c’è un fortino piccolo.
GM: Eh.
DC: Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Sottoterra vai anche lì eh.
DC: Questo qui.
GM: Quello è profondo.
DC: Ha, il, la botola sopra.
GM: Sì, la botola sopra che c’era una mitraglia penso io.
DC: Secondo, o era una riservetta, dico, sì, secondo me lì sopra ci doveva stare la mitraglia.
GM: Lì c’era questa piatta, questa cosa tonda che si vede che c’era una mitragliera
DC: Da fronteggiare.
GM: A quarantacinque gradi, vai a capire, a novanta gradi, e in più c’era una casamatta dentro. Casematte erano tutte quelle tonde di ferro che erano
DC: A cupoletta così.
GM: Erano tonde, tonde, proprio tonde. E avevano una porta di otto, nove centimetri. Che noi, quando io lavoravo da [unclear] dopo la guerra.
DC: Andavate a recuperare la roba.
GM: Abbiamo tagliato ste porte per fare il tasso per raddrizzare il ferro, per battere il ferro
DC: Per lavorare
GM: Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] Quella era roba bona.
GM: Ce n’era una anche vicino il [unclear] dove c’era, dove finiva la mura del De Orchi.
DC: C’era un fortino lato mare?
GM: C’era una casamatta di ferro così.
DC: Allora questa è la De Orchi.
GM: Eh. Di dietro.
DC: De Orchi. Questo qui è il mare.
GM: Sì.
DC: Dov’è che era sto fortino?
GM: Questo è il mare, il fortino è, dunque questo è la De Orchi, qui, qui. Era qui.
DC: Questa era uno di quelli piccolini, cupoletta.
GM: Tutto ferro, tutto ferro.
DC: Ah, solo ferro.
GM: Solo ferro.
DC: Ah , ostia!, interessante. C’è una fotografia nei libri della guerra lì dei [unclear]? Bunker.
GM: Quello è tutto ferro, tondo. C’era
DC: Tutto ferro.
GM: Con porta di spessore da dieci centimetri.
Ui: E qui intorno ce ne erano degli altri che ti ricordi te?
GM: No, qui, qui, qui, e qui [unclear], no.
DC: Sai dove ce n’è uno ancora esistente?
Gm: Eh.
DC: In Via Zavagli. Te sei a monte e vai verso il mare.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Come passi il primo ponte della ferrovia, guardi sulla spallata così della ferrovia, c’è il fortino. A trenta metri dalla Via Zavagli. Ci sono andato dentro, ho preso le misure.
Gm: [unclear] perché io ho visto un altro coso come quello della [unclear]
DC: E’ fatto così a due livelli.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Sopra il tetto ha, stranamente ha la porta verso il mare, che non è, sembra illogico. E’ così guarda. C’ha la porta qui così,
GM: [unclear] verso il mare.
DC: si alza un po’ e qui c’è la feritoia. E’ fatto così, tutto in calcestruzzo. E qui la porta e la feritoia guardano tutti due
Gm: E’ quello che te sei andato qui perché invece
DC: Invece quello è così, è un rettangolo praticamente smussato un po’ indietro così
GM: Sotto si va, si va giù coi gradini sotto da dentro nel recinto dalla casa.
DC: Ah, anche quello c’ha la porta qui.
GM: Quello c’ha la porta.
DC: E il buco qua sopra.
GM: C’ha la porta verso il mare.
DC: Verso il mare.
GM: Sì. Infatti
DC: Guarda, è a un metro dalla linea ferroviaria, dalla rotaia.
Gm: Quella casa lì l’ha presa uno, ma sotto c’ha fatto la cantina.
DC: Sì c’ha fatto la cantina, ma non è tanto grande questo eh.
GM: No.
DC: Questo sarà largo così, è più lungo, è un rettangolo ma non è molto largo. Non so se lo usavano come riserva per le munizioni.
GM: Può darsi, senz’altro. Senz’altro.
DC: Tuo babbo che lavoro faceva in quel periodo?
GM: Mio babbo lavorava all’aeroporto allora al tempo di guerra.
DC: Cosa faceva?
GM: Dava benzina agli aerei così, hai capito?
DC: Ostia! Ma va!
GM: Eh sì, perché, dopo lui è stato in Germania.
DC: Coso qui, Antimi
Gm: Antimi, il falegname?
Ui: No, Antimi, adess l’è mort pure et ma lui durante la guerra era sotto naja, era in marina. Antimi, aspetta eh, sta, stava di casa, hai presente la rotonda qui dell’ospedale?
GM: Eh.
DC: Vai verso Riccione. Una, prima di arrivare in Via Rimembranza, lui sta in una di quelle casette lì. In Via Fasola.
GM: Fasola?
DC: Sta, lui di casa durante la guerra.
GM: Ah, ho capito.
Ui: Era di quella famiglia che stavano lì di fronte alla Coca-Cola. Un pochettino più verso Rimini.
GM: Sì [unclear]
DC: E lui lavorava dentro l’aeroporto e, se ricordo bene m’aveva detto, che era assieme, cosa che c’era, c’è un meridionale qui a Bellariva che anche lui era, lavorava dentro l’aeroporto.
GM: In tempo di guerra?
Ui: Sì, non so se faceva il calzolaio.
GM: Ah, può darsi.
DC: Come cus ciema, è famoso qui a Bellariva, sicuramente te lo conosci ma adesso mi sfugge il nome, e lo stesso. E lui quindi metteva benzina negli aeroplani, faceva questi servizi così. Porcaccia loca!
GM: [unclear] dopo, sì, mio babbo nel prima ha lavorato anche con il comune di Rimini, però lavorava d’estate, sai il lavoro era quello lì in tempo prima della, in tempo di guerra o prima della guerra, [unclear] ogni tent, si muradure.
DC: Dove capitava.
Gm: Dop l’è andè in Germania, è stato due tre anni là.
DC: Faceva le stagioni o stava fisso?
GM: No, no, lui, lui lavorava in una fabbrica di, dove facevano i sommergibili.
DC: Ostrica! Ti ricordi in che città era?
GM: Era witt, eh Wittenberg.
DC: Tre anni filati è stato là?
GM: No, veniva a casa in licenza.
DC: Faceva le licenze. Porco boia!
GM: Lui e mio zio, tutti e due.
DC: Perché qua mancava il lavoro.
GM: Eh, qua mancava il lavoro, dopo ha fatto sta cosa. Il primo anno l’ha fatto a Villach, in Austria.
DC: E li che cosa, fabbrica di che cosa?
GM: Lì campagna.
DC: E mio suocero l’è andè in Polonia a piantar patè di un anno.
GM: Anche lì fè in campagne dopo l’è [speaks dialect] il secondo turno l’ha fatto là in Germania.
DC: Perché pagavano più di qui.
GM: Ostia, pagavano [unclear] poi.
DC: Però mi ha detto mio suocero l’era un freddo
GM:Ah, l’era dura no però
DC: E’ arrivato là in maggio c’era ancora la neve dov’era lui.
GM: [unclear] Noi, io avevo tre fratelli, erano tutti e tre in Germania erano. Uno è rimasto anche fino la, il passaggio dei russi diciamo. [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs] Dio poi!
GM: Hai capito? E invece gli altri due e mio babbo e mio zio, ce l’hann fatta a venire a casa [unclear]
DC: Dio poi! [laughs]
GM: Con una licenza e poi nel [speaks dialect]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: Sta bombardè forti là.
DC: Porcamiseria. La Germania dove c’erano le fabbriche l’hann rasa praticamente al suolo.
GM: L’hann raso al suolo.
DC: Il terzo bombardamento di Rimini, anzi forse è stato il secondo. Dei caccia di scorta hanno sganciato i [unclear] nella zona del Ghetto Turco.
GM: Sì, i serbatoi.
DC: I serbatoi.
GM: I serbatoi, sì sì.
DC: Ti ricordi di averlo visto te sta cosa?
GM: Sì sì. Che venivano giù sta cosa, puttana [unclear].
DC: Una signora. La Gattei [?], [unclear] la mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
DC: [unclear], La mamma di Gattei [?]
GM: Sì.
Ui: Il coso, il vecchio bagnino di Bellariva.
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Lei mi ha detto: ‘io stavo là vicino al Ghetto Turco [unclear] abbiamo visto venire giù sti robi strani [unclear] ah, Dio poi! Ma venivano giù piano, che di solito le bombe, quando prendevano velocità, non le vedevi più no. E questa si continuava a vedere [unclear] sai che sarà, corri di qua, corri d’là, arrivano per terra, non succede niente. Allora tutti avevano paura, disi, scoppierà per terr. Allora dice che c’era un carabiniere là c’la dett: ‘[speaks in dialect] che vado a veder io. Tanto ormai sono vecchio, anche se muoio io’. Quand’è arrivato là ha capito che erano serbatoi di benzina. Dopo [unclear] che qualcosa hanno rimediato ma c’era rimasto poca roba.
DC: Quindi anche te li hai visti scendere?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Si capivano che erano caccia su in alto?
GM: [unclear] quando c’era la, la formazione degli aerei, quella era per il terzo bombardamento adesso [unclear] perché [unclear].
DC: Cert. [laughs]
GM: Mi ricordo che ero, ero lì dove c’è il semaforo adesso, no, la Via Rimembranza era tutta campagna. [speaks dialect] mi fa:’dio bono’, difatti venivano da Riccione e andavano verso Rimini. C’era la caserma Giulio Cesare, che c’erano ancora i soldati lì. H a dit, Puttana madonna guarda quanti aerei. E difatti si è visto proprio, io mi sono messo nel fosso, sembrava che queste bombe cadessero proprio sopra di noi.
DC: Dio poi!
GM: Puttana Madonna! [speaks dialect] Invece, hai capito, [unclear] vicino la mura della caserma, hai capito. Ah la Madonna! Era un bel disastro.
DC: Robe che non si dimenticano eh.
GM: Eh, non si dimenticano.
DC: [unclear]
GM: Ti faccio vedere un libro che ha scritto mio, un figlio di una mia cugina.
DC: Su questo argomento qui?
GM: Che racconta anche lui [unclear]
DC: Va la!
GM: Di questa. Tutti, ci sono tutti racconti, non so se tu l’hai visto quel libro lì.
DC: Come s’intitola?
GM: A m’arcord.
DC: Prova a far vedere, che mi interessa moltissimo. Che ci sia anche in biblioteca, l’avrà depositato.
GM: Non credo.
DC: Signora, voi di solito a che ora cenate, che non vorrei.
FS: Ma no no no, tardi.
DC: Tardi.
FS: Tardi, eh.
DC: [laughs]
FS: No no, non si preoccupi.
GM: Aspetta, ‘la città invisibile’.
DC: Ce l’ho.
GM: Ce l’hai?
DC: Ce l’ho. La scritto chi, tuo cugino? Tuo parente?
GM: No, c’è un racconto che è di un mio parente.
DC: Coso?
GM: Rodolfo si chiama.
DC: Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi.
DC: Te sei parente con Francesconi?
GM: Francesconi è il figlio di una mia cugina buona.
DC: Lo sai che io da un racconto [unclear] qui?
GM: [speaks dialect] Sarà zinquanta, sessanta anni.
Ui: Fa vedere la fotografia di Francesconi che di faccia non me lo ricordo.
GM: [unclear] vieni a pagina qua.
DC: Questo è bellissimo, sto libro qui. Il racconto di Rodolfo. Fa veder. Perché qui c’è un racconto anche di un altro di Bellariva.
GM: Germano Melucci.
DC: [unclear] sull’elenco non c’è.
GM: Stai qui, stai qui.
DC: Non l’ho trovato sul elenco telefonico.
GM: Te dè me il numero.
DC: Dio bonamma! Rodolfo, fa veder la foto.
GM: Questo è tutta, tutta storia, tutta la parentela anche il mia, la mi zia, che era su nona, hai capito? Dopo c’era mio cugino.
DC: Questo è ingegnere? No.
GM: No, lui no, lui è chimico credo.
DC: Ingegnere chimico. Sta a Riccione?
GM: Sì.
DC: Lo sai che io c’ho parlato con lui?
GM: Sì?
DC: E mi ha prestato il suo diario da fotocopiare?
GM: Ah sì?
DC: [laughs] Perché gli sono andato a chiedere se aveva voglia di raccontarmi. Lui mi fa, mi ha guardato, fa:’ma perché fa sta cosa?’ Dico: ‘Guardi, io sono un appassionato, io ho letto un libro che c’è’. E mi fa:’sa che sto diario l’ho dato alla biblioteca di Cattolica’ che dovevano fare qualcosa, tipo una pubblicazione così. Ma lo vuole leggere? Dico:’magari, se vuole, ma si fida?’ dico perché io lui non l’avevo mai visto, c’eravamo incontrati così per le mie ricerche.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Me l’ha dato, mi ha prestato il diario, me lo sono, lui qui ha fatto la cronistoria di tutti gli aerei che ha visto cadere.
GM: Sì sì. [unclear] tutto.
DC: Ha fatto una roba fuori di testa. Ma ha visto un sacco di roba questo qui eh. Poi si erano spostati là nella colonia a Misano.
GM: Sì perché la colonia lì, perché mia zia.
DC: Ma pensa te, è tuo parente [laughs]
GM: Aveva sposato un Amati, no. I famosi Amati di Riccione.
DC: Di Riccione.
GM: Anche parente c’è qualche [unclear] eccetera e praticamente il marito di mia zia era uno che stava bene, era uno che, una persona, un grande pescatore.
DC: Stava a Mirano mi sembra lui, Francesconi?
GM: Mirano, lui è stato
DC: C’ha lavorato?
GM: Francesconi era il babbo di Rodolfo, hai capito, che era un gerarca fascista. E’ stato in Libia, cred che sia mort, na, na, dop la guerra l’è torni. [speaks dialect] direttor l’Alitalia un per. Hai capito?
DC: Com’era, uno di quelli che
GM: Dopo mia cugina si era disunita da lui come
DC: Quest na, è Germano?
GM: Questo è Germano.
DC: Dio bonamma, l’ho cercato che gli volevo parlare.
GM: [unclear] sta zitta. Questo è un altro libro di chiesa, però racconta anche un po’ questo di bombardamenti. Questo è “una spiaggia, una chiesa e una comunità”.
DC: E chi l’ha, ah, Manlio Masini. Bravo che lui scrive
GM: Questo è ’43. Dal ’12 al ’43.
DC: E parla del [unclear], anche qui della guerra?
GM: Questo parla un po’ della guerra anche.
DC: Sei amico te con lui, lo conosci?
GM: Masini? No, questo qui me l’ha dato un mio amico che era un professore; Marcello [unclear] perché el cognom [speaks dialect]. Era, siccome faceva, d’estate faceva il, il, parlava bene l’inglese e il francese, faceva, lavorava per, con l’areoporto per le agenzie, ora ho fatto anche il tassista, te capì? Per sto [unclear]
DC: Per un certo periodo.
GM: E allora hai capito, beh comunque, c’è la storia di qualche bombardamento perché c’è anche Marvelli, che ha lavorato anche lui nella Todt.
DC: Ah, lui era ingegnere.
GM: Lui era ingegnere.
DC: Era lì alla cosa, alla Maddalena, come sede, lui? [unclear] in giro?
GM: Ma io non, io non me lo ricordo. Io ho letto qui che lui ha lavorato nella Todt.
DC: Sì ma l’hanno detto che lui era.
GM: Hai capito, ho letto qui che c’è un racconto.
DC: Forse lui magari era in una delle altre sedi.
GM: Lui era ingegnere, hai capito, dopo parlava bene il tedesco lui perché la mamma era tedesca di lui.
DC: Ah, non lo sapevo questo.
GM: Hai capito.
DC: Fammi vedere il titolo che me lo scrivo. Allora, Manlio Masini, una spiaggia, una chiesa, una comunità. Fammi una cortesia.
GM: Dimmi.
DC: C’hai il numero di Germano, hai detto?
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Dammelo subito che così non mi dimentico che dopo, dopo di te, becco anche lui [laughs]. Che belle foto che ci sono.
GM: Qui ci sono anch’io in una processione.
DC: Ah sì? Te frequentavi la, il coso dei Salesiani?
GM: Io nel, nel ’38, quando ho passato la cresima, tutti [unclear] lì perché la chiesa era a Piazza Tripoli, noi qui non avevamo la parrocchia, hai capito?
DC: Non facevate con la Colonnella?
GM: No, la Colonnella era dalla parte di là. La Via Rimembranze era, una parte della ferrovia in là era Colonnella e fino, sulla destra era Colonnella e sulla sinistra era Piazza Tripoli. Comunque
DC: Ah, quindi te eri collegato là.
GM: Io ero collegato con la chiesa di [unclear], quindi Germano, Germano, Germano, Germano, 380424.
DC: E abita anche lui in questa via qui?
GM: Lui abita dirimpetto [unclear] c’è pure il tabaccaio che fa angolo qui.
DC: Sì.
GM: C’è un tabaccaio no. La stradina lì, la seconda casa, c’è un cancello con l’automatico.
DC: Con l’automatico. Ah, dio bo, lo chiamo eccome. Lo sai che l’ho cercato anche sotto Riccione, [unclear] siccome quelli lì sono quasi tutti di Riccione, dico, si vede che sta a Riccione [unclear]
GM: [unclear] Ha il distributore a Riccione.
DC: Ah.
GM: Allora uno c’ha regalato il libro, lui, me l’ha dato lui sto libro.
DC: E’ bellissimo.
GM: E allora dopo [unclear] ho letto tanti
DC: Questa storia qui.
GM: Eh.
DC: Il racconto di Dino, questo.
GM: Sì?
DC: Che era il fabbro di Spontricciolo.
GM: Spontricciolo.
DC: Lui, assieme ad altri due, ha tenuto nascosto un americano per tre mesi, un aviatore che si era buttato il 5 giugno del ’44 nella zona di Ospedaletto. Erano in dieci, sei li hanno catturati subito, quattro
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: Era, ma adesso arriviamo anche lì,
GM: Quando zè rivà, in che periodo che è caduto l’aereo?
DC: Cinque giugno ’44.
GM: Difatti, quando il fronte è passato in
DC: In settembre.
GM: In settembre
DC: Qui hanno combattuto a [unclear] dai primi di settembre.
GM: Era una fortezza volante.
DC: Era una fortezza volante.
GM: L’è cascè [speaks dialect] perché una volta c’era una fortezza volante, noi da porta san marino
DC: Vedevate tutto.
GM: Prendevamo una galleria che aveva tutto lo sbocco e abbiamo visto tutta la battaglia dei carri armati, si vedeva tutto, hai capito? E poi, era uno che aveva un binocolo buonissimo [unclear]
DC: La galleria quale, quella del Borgo Maggiore?
GM: No, era l’altra.
DC: [unclear] al convento dei frati?
GM: No. Dunque partiva, dal Borgo Maggiore partiva, dunque, petta,
Ui: Ce n’era una che faceva tutto il giro del monte
GM: No, Il nostro giro, la nostra galleria, quando tu venivi giù dalla città,
DC: Sì.
GM: Da San Marino, per andare già nel borgo, prima di prendere la penultima curva che [unclear] il borgo
DC: Che fa tutto il giro
GM: Sotto quel, quel coso lì c’è l’entrata di questa galleria
DC: Che fa tutto il giro del monte
GM: Che va, va a finire
DC: Al convento di Valdragone. Mi sembra, no?
GM: No, no, no, no, quello va a finire a Santa Mustiola. E prende un’altra galleria ancora che va nel borgo dopo.
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Ce n’erano due, hai capito, uno attacca l’altra.
DC: Quindi voi eravate dalla parte che guarda verso il mare.
GM: Noi guardavamo, sì, noi guardavamo verso il mare perché eravamo, quando uscivamo dalla galleria c’era uno spiazzale lì. Vedevamo il mare, Serravalle, e vedevamo, e se andavi su poi dopo vedevi anche Riccione eh cioè, però dovevi andare sulla strada, hai capito.
DC: Sì.
GM: Perché c’era la strada lì. Era una galleria che era ottocento metri credo, faceva un ferro da cavallo faceva
DC: Sì, girava intorno al monte,
GM: Sì.
DC: Praticamente.
GM: E vedevamo tutto Verucchio, tutto il Montebello, tutte le cose lì, tutti i compartimenti.
DC: Era una zona praticamente.
GM: Dalla galleria vedevi proprio i ultimi tedeschi scappava via
DC: E parlami di quel [unclear], di quella fortezza volante.
GM: Di quella fortezza volante, allora, è successo che sta fortezza volante andavano verso
DC: Verso sud.
GM: Verso sud.
DC: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento.
GM: Stava rientrando da un bombardamento. E questa che è qui ha preso verso la campagna qua, verso Cerasolo, su, su, e andava verso l’Arno. E poi tutta una volta si sono buttati via sti [unclear]
DC: Paracaduti.
GM: L’apparech andava verso Cattolica così, hai capito, [speaks dialect] quel casca.
DC: C’erano due caccia che lo attaccavano sta fortezza volante o era da sola?
GM: No, era da sola la
Ui: Allora è quello lì. Hai visto quello lì.
GM: Era da sola.
DC: Perché un mese prima ce n’era stato un altro sempre [unclear]
GM: Per me quella lì è stata colpita dalla contraerea.
DC: E’ esatto.
GM: E’ stata.
DC: A Bologna.
GM: Eh, difatti.
DC: Era andata a bombardare a Bologna.
GM: [speaks dialect] questo [speaks dialect] si vede che c’era qualcosa che non andava.
DC: I colleghi di, gli altri aeroplani che erano più avanti,
GM: Sì.
DC: Perché lui era rimasto attardato,
GM: Sì.
DC: Che non gli andavano i motori.
GM: Difatti [unclear] questo era lì per [unclear].
DC: Hanno scritto che era esploso in volo l’aereo. Te ti, quando è andato sul mare, secondo te, è andato giù nell’acqua o l’è sciupè?
GM: Io non ho visto [unclear] perché io [unclear] orca madonna butta zò [unclear] dopo hann detto che poi un po’ li hanno presi.
DC: Sei li hanno presi. Tre sono finiti a Monte Grimano e sono stati nascosti da un signore, con cui ho parlato, che li ha tenuti in casa
GM: [unclear]
DC: E il quarto era quello che ha aiutato lui.
GM: Ha avuto un bel coraggio.
DC: Quelli si sono incamminati, sono riusciti ad arrivare all’interno. Dopo hanno trovato dei partigiani che li hanno portati a Monte Grimano, in sta famiglia che stavano in una casa isolata. E lì sono stati circa due mesi. Poi dopo è arrivato il fronte e sono riusciti a consegnarsi. Lui invece che era rimasto aiutato da uno lì che era nella zona, questo, Dolci
GM: Sì, sì, sì.
DC: Questo, il Dolci di soprannome, era sfollato a Mulazzano.
GM: Ho capito.
DC: Dice, sono andato giù, per vedere dove erano atterrati sti aviatori. Dice, l’er ved un camion fascisti e tedeschi, ia ciap su, erano nel grano, dice, hann tirato, c’hanno mitragliato sopra in alto no questi col fazzoletto bianco così si sono arresi, dice, li ha ciap, ha detto, torno su a Mulazzano. Arrivo a Mulazzano e trovo un signore con la bicicletta che mi fa: ‘te’, siccome lui dava in giro i giornali proibiti, L’Unità così, faceva propaganda no, non era un partisen però si dava da fare e dai, lui era giovane.
GM: [speaks dialects]
DC: [speaks dialect] [laughs] Allora mi dice: ‘mi avvicina un signore con la bicicletta ha detto: ‘te che sei un partigiano, hai presente il Ristorante Vannucci a Mulazzano?
GM: Sì.
DC: Dietro il ristorante Vannucci, giù nella scarpata c’era questo aviatore, che qui c’è anche la fotografia, che si era slogato una caviglia e non riusciva a camminare. Diceva: ‘anda zì e aiutè perché quello non ries a moversi’ e da lì è nata la storia. E lui e gli altri, e un altro me l’ha raccontata tutta, ha fatto un libretto che ho depositato in biblioteca.
GM: Qui c’erano partigiani uno che faceva il tassista con me, lui è, per dire, che poi va detto, si chiamava Amati, Amati Gino, se tu guardi anche sul computer c’è Amati Gino
DC: A Rimini?
GM: Rimini sì. Era assieme con i tre che hanno impiccato lui eh. Quelli che sono scappati, è scappato via [unclear]
DC: Che è riuscito a
Gm: Scappar via a bruciapelo. La storia di lui.
DC: Lui è ancora vivo?
GM: No, è morto
DC: Vacca boia!
GM: E’ morto due, tre anni fa. E [unclear] dimmi Gino, insomma quante semo partigiani? [speaks dialect] durant la guerr eran tut partigien. [speaks dialect] In partigien sem sette o otto.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Quei poveracci che hanno ammazzato che poi delle grandi azioni non le hanno fatte.
DC: Grandi azioni qui a Rimini non le hanno fatte. Tagliavano i fili del telefono, mettevano i chiodi
GM: Bolini con la mazzetta, [unclear] fucilè fradè per sbai.
DC: Chi Bolini?
GM: Quelli di Bolini che
DC: Ciavatta.
GM: Ciavatta. Però
DC: [unclear]
GM: Era imparentato coi Bolini
Gm: Ciavatta er, erano quattro o cinque fratelli, no, la sai la storia
DC: Te li conoscevi, sì, me l’hanno raccontata.
GM: Io ho preso la pensione da loro quando
DC: Quando hai cominciato
GM: Quando hanno incominciato a fare la pensione a Marebello.
DC: Ah, Marebello avevano loro?
GM: Avevano la Pensione Emma lì no, che c’è ancora. Era dei Ciavatti quella lì.
GM: Che dopo poi loro ne hanno fatto un’altra là a Rivazzurra. E quella lì l’han venduta e noi l’abbiamo preso da lui in affitto quando
DC: Ho capito.
GM: Dopo l’ha presa una certa Giunchi e allora lì mi ricordo che ancora c’era ancora la mamma che era ancora [unclear]
DC: Poi con la storia che il fratello non si era consegnato [unclear]
GM: [unclear]
DC: E non tocchiamo questo discorso che qui siamo sul personale, dopo.
GM: E allora voglio dire che c’entravano [unclear] i partigiani, a volte [unclear] ah ma sei partigiano, ma che partigiano [unclear]. La battaglia [unclear].
DC: Durante il terzo bombardamento di Rimini i caccia tedeschi, te non so se te ne sei accorto,
GM: Caccia tedeschi.
DC: Caccia tedeschi hanno attaccato la formazione e hanno abbattuto due bombardieri, due fortezze volanti che sono andate a cadere, una a Città di Castello e una a Campo, che è verso
GM: Quello, quando è stato quel bombardamento lì?
DC: Quello è stato il 27 Novembre del ’43. Poi dopo ci sono stati quelli grossi
GM: Infatti, però hanno buttato giù anche un caccia tedesco che c’era un, c’erano i caccia della
DC: Della Repubblica Sociale.
GM: Della Repubblica Sociale.
DC: Quel giorno secondo te, è caduto?
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: E dove sarebbe caduto questo aereo lì?
GM: Sarebbe caduto là verso San Marino credo, sia caduto là a Fiorentino, penso io.
DC: Dietro San Marino, due aerei della Repubblica Sociale sono caduti, abbattuti per sbaglio dai tedeschi. Pensa te. Uno è caduto verso Montecopiolo e uno una decina di chilometri più in là. Questi italiani della Repubblica Sociale Italiana stavano inseguendo,
FS: Oh ciao!
DC: Ciao, salve, non salve, ciao [laughs], te, scusami, sai. C’hai il babbo che, è uno classe 1929 che può raccontare un sacco di robe e non m’hai mai detto niente?
SFS: Eh, certo, come no.
DC: Eh no, no. [laughs]
FS: Ne abbiam parlato, ne abbiam parlato.
DC: Come stai?
FS: Bene, te?
DC: Non c’è male.
FS: Come va il tuo libro?
DC: Eh io due, ho depositato due libri in biblioteca.
FS: Ah sì?
DC: Sì.
FS: Dai, ma due.
DC: Raccogliendo le robine così ma robine così da bastare eh
FS: Vabbè, ma sei un appassionato infatti la Patrizia è mia amica la Patrizia, quella bionda bionda della biblioteca
DC: Ah sì, la [unclear]
FS: La [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
FS: Mi dice sempre perché una volta così abbiamo parlato. Mi fa, ma dai ma [unclear] parlare di storia perché anche lei è laureata in, proprio in storia moderna, hai capito, la sua specializzazione. E allora faceva: ‘Ma dai non lo conosci, non, coso, Celli, no, ti ricordi, ‘come non lo conosco’, ha detto, è anche venuto a casa mia per, che facevi l’albero.
DC: Sì che facevo le ricerche
FS: Le ricerche. E infatti allora insomma.
DC: Allora mi faccio raccontare anche dal tuo babbo quello che ha passato lui. Dio bon, c’ha una memoria della Madonna, il tuo babbo.
GM: [unclear]
FS: Il mio babbo, ha su quelle cose lì il mio babbo, mio zio Luciano di là, dio bon, chi li ferma più. Infatti fai bene, stai facendo un [unclear]
DC: Io adesso raccolgo, dopo vedrò.
FS: Vedrai.
DC: Adesso intanto cerco di raccogliere.
FS: Ah bene bene bene. Poi dopo fa. Adesso qua che li verrai a vedere, eh, quei depositi là?
DC: [unclear]
FS: Devi chiedere alla Patrizia.
DC: Fammi vedere i libri di Celli. Ma ti dico, io non sono bravo a scrivere, quindi, è giusto per non perdere la memoria di quello che mi racconta.
FS: Eh, hai fatto bene. Le hai praticamente solo depositato come documento.
DC: Come documento.
FS: Come documento che se uno vuole reperire delle cose, no? Un ambientazione.
DC: Se uno vuole fare una ricerca sul passato bellico di Rimini, lì ci sono delle notizie.
FS: Come no, come no.
DC: E uno, che dicevo adesso al tuo babbo, è nato da una storia che ho letto su sto libro qui. Qui c’è uno che ha aiutato un americano
FS: E chi è, perché adesso non ho gli occhiali, città?
DC: ‘La città invisibile’.
FS: ‘invisibile’. L’ho sentita dire. E chi è l’autore?
DC: Fabio Galli, Glauco Galli.
GM: Glauco Galli.
FS: Glauco Galli.
DC: Deve essere uno che [unclear] dalla politica e adesso penso che abbia una carica a livello di provincia o di regione.
GM: Ah sì?
FS: Può essere.
DC: Deve essere un politico lui.
FS: Ma guarda. Bene allora quando mi capita, io vedo sempre, al sabato sono andata a trovare la Patrizia, adesso me li faccio vedere quei libri.
DC: Uno non te lo daranno sicuro perché è in unica copia ma il secondo che ho fatto su quella storia lì, è in duplice copia, quindi uno può uscire. Poi se lo vuoi, se mi dai l’indirizzo di posta elettronica, ti mando il pdf, te lo leggi così.
FS: Ah, beh dai, scrivilo. Daniela, no aspetta, danimurat
DC: Danimurat
FS: Danimurat, con una t, @alice.it. Ecco, a posto.
DC: Ti mando le ultime due che ho fatto.
FS: Grazie.
DC: Anzi, sono tre depositate in biblioteca. Uno che stava lì [unclear] Pino Burdon, adesso sta qui in Via Carlo Porta [unclear]. Lavorava da Ciavatta, quelli che facevano le reti dei letti.
GM: Burdon. Pino.
DC: Fabbri, la, sua moglie qui in Via Carlo Porta doveva avere un negozietto di mercerie mi sembra, c’hai presente?
GM: Burdon. Stavano in Via Pesaro una volta.
DC: Ma forse quello sarà un altro parente, qualcosa di collegato, mi aveva raccontato una storia durante ste ricerche che mi aveva incuriosito tantissimo ma non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui aveva visto passare sul mare un aereo tedesco con sei motori, bassissimo, perché c’erano le nuvole che erano
GM: Allora avevano i sei motori?
DC: Avevano[unclear] aerei da trasporto di quella stazza lì.
GM: Sì ne avevano.
DC: E’ andato a sbattere contro il coso di Gabicce.
FS: Davvero, la cosa, il monte lì?
DC: Sì, ho sentito con dei ricercatori storici di areonautica, non lo sapeva nessuno di sta storia qua. E allora, cerca, cerca, cerca, ho trovato uno di Gabicce che lui personalmente non se lo ricordava, però c’era un suo vicino di casa che gli aveva raccontato sta storia. Ci siamo messi in contatto, siamo andati a fare un sopralluogo, mi ha fatto vedere dove era caduto, ho chiamato i miei amici di Bagnacavallo col metal detector, sono venuti, abbiamo trovato i pezzi, e c’era un testimone oculare che ci ha detto dov’era caduto quindi sapevamo che era lì e poi dopo guardando su internet, al cimitero tedesco della Futa, tra Bologna e Firenze, c’era, c’erano nove militari morti il 16 dicembre del ’42 e ho trovato il riscontro di quei nove lì, registrati nel cimitero di Pesaro perché un mio amico delle Marche, che ho contattato attraverso internet, chiedendogli se sapeva di sta storia, perché non riuscivo a trovare riscontri. Lui me l’aveva raccontato, questo qui di Bellariva e non c’era, non riuscivo a trovare né una data
FS: Certo, non riuscivi a trovare riferimenti.
DC: Riferimenti per approfondire la ricerca.
FS: Eh certo.
DC: Allora, un mio amico bravo, uno di quelli con il metal detector, che si sa spatacare bene con internet, ha trovato sti nove caduti cinquanta chilometri a sud di Rimini. Cinquanta chilometri serìa Fano però Gabicce, poi con quell’aereo lì ne è caduto uno solo qui intorno. E dopo ho sentito anche quelli del cimitero.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Andavano giù in Sicilia.
FS: Ma no, me l’aveva raccontato coso a me, [unclear] una volta
DC: Mulazzani?
FS: Mulazzani perché io una volta
DC: Di sto aereo con sei motori?
FS: No, che passavano questi aerei. Che lui si ricordava
DC: Andavano giù. Seguivano il mare, la costa.
FS: Ma aveva parlato anche di una rotta. Adesso a m’arcord perché avevo scritto per la Granzela no, il giornalino facevo perché intervistavo [unclear] anch’io dei personaggi ma giusto a livello di narrativa, non di storia. Però naturalmente quando che ne so, magari intervistavo Mulazzani o mio zio, erano tutte cose legate alla guerra perché per loro era un ricordo vivo.
DC: Era qualcosa che, ecco, esatto.
FS: Quindi mi raccontava di questo, di questi aerei
DC: E insomma, dopo ho sentito quelli del cimitero di Pesaro. Gli ho detto, guardate, io ho trovato sto riscontro di nove caduti perché questo, l’amico delle Marche mi ha detto:’Guarda, io non so di questo aereo caduto, però ho trovato nelle mie ricerche un servizio su Il Corriere dell’Adriatico che parlava di un funerale di tedeschi ma non diceva né dove erano morti e né di che aereo erano’. Però un numero così, guarda, alcuni tedeschi, il funerale. Allora con quell’articolo lì, sentendo col cimitero se trovavano riscontro con la data di quell’articolo, mi ha trovato gli stessi che erano su al cimitero del Parco della Futa. Lì c’era scritto che era un aereo con sei motori perché c’era la sigla dell’aereo e quindi si è chiuso il cerchio.
FS: Si è chiuso il cerchio.
DC: E dopo ho presentato anche quella lì [unclear].
FS: Che bella questo.
DC: Ti mando anche quella.
FS: Ma questo, guarda, stai facendo un lavorone.
GM: Sì, anche a San Marino è caduto uno.
DC: Sì, è andato a sbattere contro la montagna un giorno che c’era nebbia. C’è, nel cimitero di San Marino c’è
GM: C’è l’elica.
DC: La tomba con l’elica. Sono andato a fargli la fotografia.
GM: Ah sì?
DC: Quei miei amici col metal detector hanno fatto un libro su tutti gli aerei che hanno censito loro.
GM: Su quella collina, sotto la città
DC: Montecchio si chiama lì, mi sembra.
GM: Non so. Dove ero io, io ero a Le Piagge, [unclear] che è poco lontano dal centro, no, dal paese e c’è una collinetta, hai capito, che si va giù a Santa Mustiola lì e st’aereo [unclear] quella volta.
DC: Veniva dalla zona di Ravenna e stava rientrando anche [unclear].
GM: Ma io penso che era uno di quei bimotori,
DC: Bimotori, bravissimo.
GM: Pippo, Pippo il bombardiere, che faceva [unclear], butteva zò una bomba.
DC: Buttava una bomba di cla, una bomba di là,
GM: Sempre quel fazeva.
DC: E disturbava il sonno della gente.
GM: Buttava i bengala, che s’illuminava tutto, no e poi faceva un giretto e [makes a booming noise] [unclear].
DC: Ma sai che quegli aerei
GM: Al Ponte di Verucchio, quando noi eravamo nella galleria, [speaks dialect]
DC: [laughs]
GM: Hai capì, ecco, arriva Pippo buttava zò i bengala e poi [makes a booming noise] e no i ne ciapava mai quel ponte, l’ha fat saltar per aria i tedeschi
DC: I tedeschi quando si sono ritirati
GM: Quando si sono ritirati. Hai capito?
DC: M’ha detto uno che stava dalla parte di là, m’ha detto, [unclear], i pezzi della roba che sono saltati, ha detto [unclear], ha detto, anche loro, ha detto, abbiamo visto un sacco di attacchi su quel ponte e non l’hann mai ciap.
GM: Non la mai ciap. Tutta scena [unclear]
DC: [speaks dialect]
FS: Ma pensa te. Bravo. Allora bene.
DC: Ti mando se c’hai voglia di leggere qualcosa
FS: No, ma è interessante, no ma mi piace molto la tua passione, no, perché io ce l’ho con i libri quella passione lì, nel senso come ricerca degli scritti, delle, no, a chi appartengono. Adesso non le faccio più quelle ricerche lì, però prima mi piaceva. E dai, è bello, è bello quando scopri, no
DC: A me piace tantissimo.
FS: Che arrivi, come hai detto te, che [unclear]
DC: Che riesci a trovare i riscontri
FS: Arrivi al, che ne so, al manuscritto del, questo [unclear] l’ha scritto quello, per dire.
DC: Io al tuo babbo gli ho chiesto per telefono, sai di quei due fucilati perché.
GM: Ho dunque quelli lì, sì io ho sentito un paio di volte
DC: A colonia De Orchi hanno [unclear] ragazzi
GM: Però, ho chiesto a mio fratello anche perché [speaks dialect] che cla volte hanno amazzè tutti a De Orchi perché io mi ricordo, quando sono venuto giù dalla guerra diciamo che siamo venuti che son venuto giù prima io dei miei, di mia mamma e di mio babbo, no, mio babbo era venuto giù, di mia mamma. Era passato mio cugino che andava dal dottore a San Marino perché aveva un infezione in un occhio e lui stava [speaks dialect]
DC: Al pedrune
Gm: Al pedrune. E io sono andato con lui che pioveva come oggi così. Siam passati tutta la campagna dove c’erano ancora le mine, i mort ancora mess a gambe de fura,
DC: Dio poi!
GM: hai capito?
DC: Cos’hanno visto questi.
FS: [unclear]
GM: Proprio c’era ancora.
DC: Tutto così, era successo da poco
GM: Il mio babbo, [unclear] con un casco su un bastone,
DC: [unclear] Un bastone.
GM: Per gli inglesi metteva il casco inglese, se eran tedeschi metteva il casco tedesco.
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: I tedeschi li lasciavano così più che altro, m’hann detto.
GM: Sì guarda. E voglio dire che sono venuto giù e dopo che dopo, il giorno dopo sono andato a prendere la bicicletta [speaks dialect] alla dugena da una mia zia che era sfollata lì. I cupertun [unclear]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Allora [speaks dialect] cercione
FS: Madonna.
GM: [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear]
GM: Strada vecchia di San Marino che era tutta una colonna di carri armati. [unclear] Puttana Madonna [unclear]
DC: Loro ce l’avevano la roba, eh.
GM: Tanta roba che ha questi qui. Ti facevi il coso coi tedeschi che erano ridotti [unclear]
DC: All’osso. [unclear]
GM: Con le vacche
DC: Con le vacche [unclear]
GM: Che dopo [unclear] ero arrivato lì alla Grotta Rossa, me davano cioccolata, m a’rcord ne [speaks dialect] sta bicicletta cerciun [unclear]
FS: Cioccolata [unclear] ce la puoi fare.
DC: Ma chi che l’aveva mai vista, la cioccolata?
GM: Non l’avevo mai vista la cioccolata. Hai capito?
DC: [laughs] [unclear] E allora che cosa ti diceva tuo fratello di quei due?
GM: Mi diceva:’Na, [unclear]
DC: No, no [unclear]
GM: Perché Gino, ma perché lui era in ferrovia mio fratello, no, aveva, era giovane, [unclear] diciassett diciotto anni. Però lui prendeva tutti i treni, tutti i giorni il treno poi passava da mia nonna che era ancora qui e poi dopo ogni tanto veniva a vedere della casa e poi andava a prendere il trenino per venire su a San Marino, noi dopo eravamo a San Marino.
DC: Finché ha funzionato.
GM: E lui sapeva più informazioni. Lui ha detto che:’No, lì l’unica cosa è che hanno ammazzato, sono stati quei tre tedeschi che tenevano la resistenza da [unclear] che poi erano seppelliti lì vicino [unclear]
DC: Come mi dicevi, me l’ha detto Zangeri, che li hanno seppelliti lì dove c’era quel traliccio
GM: Sì bravo.
DC: Davanti a Papini la, coso lì.
GM: Sì, erano tre tedeschi lì.
DC: Guarda che è vero quello della fucilazione.
GM: Sì, quello della fucilazione può essere, però la ricerca non c’è di quelli lì.
DC: Adess sta a sentire cosa mi è capitato. Il primo che mi ha raccontato di questa cosa è stato Tonino Baschetta, quello che fa i cesti a [unclear].
GM: I cesti.
UI. Lo conosci?
GM: Sì sì.
DC: Sandrini lì. [unclear] poliziotto [unclear] suicidato.
GM: No, non lo conosco.
DC: Sandrino, due anni meno di noi aveva.
GM: [unclear]
DC: Tonino Baschetta sta qui in Via Davanzati, qui, è vicinissimo. Qui, e lui [unclear]. Quando noi eravamo bambini avevano la bottega attaccata al Bar Vici. L’alimentari.
FS: Ah. Eh. Eh.
DC: Suo figlio, lui quando era bambino dice, loro stavano lì vicino alla Corial, sopra la [unclear]. Dice, c’avevano i tedeschi in casa perché venivano su dal fronte, si schiaffavano nelle case del contadino e dice, cosa faccio io ero diventato amico con loro, molti erano giovani cosa facevano la mattina presto? Prendevano i loro carri, andavano già verso Marina centro, le case con i bombardamenti erano tutte disabitate, spaccavano la porta, entravano, portavano via di tutto. Dice, facevano dei carri di roba. Arrivavano lì a casa mia, facevano le casse di legno, schiaffavano roba dentro, portavano alla stazione e mandavano in Germania. Fa, ma sono stati lì da me due tre mesi, dice, la roba, la roba che hann port via, io andavo con loro, ha detto, perché ero giovane. Un giorno tornando con sti carri, arrivano lì vicino al tiro a volo, un tedesco in mezzo alla strada li ferma, sentono la scarica di fucile e poi li fanno passare. Quando arriviamo davanti, [unclear], li hanno fucilati tra la colonia e il gruppo di bagni che c’è verso il distributore di Giorgio.
GM: Sì sì sì.
DC: Lì contro il muro li hanno fucilati.
GM: [unclear] anche a me avevano detto così.
DC: E lui mi ha detto: ‘Il tedesco, quando siamo stati lì vicino, mi ha messo le mani sugli occhi ma io sono riuscito a vedere. C’erano due ragazzi stesi per terra. Dicevano che erano due toscani che li avevano presi a tagliare i fili del telefono dei tedeschi e li hanno fucilati. Invece, avevo mandato, sapendo, pensando che fossero partigiani, ho mandato mail all’ANPI di Ancona, all’ANPI di, tutto qui intorno,
FS: Sì sì sì.
DC: All’ANPI di Firenze, all’ANPI di Ravenna, non mi ha rispost nienche nissun. Solo un istituto di Ravenna mi ha dato risposta che loro non conoscevano sta storia. Un giorno, leggendo un libro di Forlì, di Mambelli che ha fatto la cronistoria di quello che succedeva soprattutto a Forlì, ma due libri più grossi di quello, con un sacco di dati interessantissimi. Trovo, tre marzo 1944, fucilati due ragazzi a Forlì e di uno c’era anche il nome. Erano di Faenza. Questi qui probabilmente erano, si erano dovuti arruolare nella Repubblica Sociale verso, quando te ti sei iscritto nella Todt. Molti per non dover farsi richiamare, andavano nella Todt perché lì eri esentato dal presentarti. Questi qui probabilmente hanno cercato di scappare via, li hanno presi e li hanno fucilati. Quindi su quel libro ho trovato un nome, vado al cimitero di Rimini, c’era il nome lui e di quell’altro. Quindi son i due nomi, erano tutti e due del ’25, avevano diciannove anni e li sono venuti a riprendere i familiari dopo nel ‘45, dopo la guerra. Ho conosciuto [unclear]
GM: E allora come diceva quello lì che li hanno fucilati
DC: Li hanno fucilati lì contro il muro
GM: Alla fine del De Orchi e l’altra palazzina.
DC: Sono entrato in contatto con uno di Faenza, gentilissimo, che mi ha mandato anche dei dati su Rimini che li ha rimediati non so dove, e lui mi ha mandato anche la fotografia di uno di quei due. M’ha mandato la fotografia del monumento che c’è a Faenza dove ci sono riportati i loro nomi ma dell’altro ancora non sono riuscito a rimediare la foto. Ho sentito con quelli dell’anagrafe di Faenza. Mi hanno detto che, volevo parlare con, contatto con i familiari per vedere di avere.
FS: Eh sì, un riscontro diciamo vero.
DC: Dei riscontri. Di uno sono morti tutti, un altro si è trasferito a Cesena e con quel nome lì non figura nessuno. Adesso dovrei provare a sentire se a Cesena mi dicono, vivono, ci sono degli eredi perché dopo c’è il discorso della riservatezza, è un po’ fatica.
FS: Sì, un po’ fatica.
DC: Però,
FS: Può darsi che
DC: Può darsi che come l’hann fatto gli altri
GM: Io mi ricordo questo qui
DC: E quelli di Faenza dell’anagrafe mi hanno mandato un documento in pdf dove c’è scritto addirittura: ‘fucilati dai tedeschi’ e c’è anche il nome di un tenente della repubblica sociale che era andato sotto processo per quel, per quell’uccisione. Che era di Pesaro questo qui, quest’ufficiale.
FS: Ma pensa te.
DC: Quindi.
FS: Devo salutare. Ciao carissimo.
DC: Piacere di averti visto.
FS: Alla prossima.
GM: Però l’hanno,
FS: Continua così.
DC: [laughs]
GM: Non l’hanno, dico pure, l’hanno spenta così perché io dopo.
DC: All’ANPI qui di Rimini non sa niente nessuno. Li hanno fucilati. Potevano dire, sono due partigiani.
GM: Infatti io mi ricordo che eravamo, ma ti ho detto, dopo la guerra subito, e dopo siamo andati a lavorare un po’ anche con gli inglesi, a lavorè anche a De Orchi [speaks dialect]
DC: Con gli alleati.
GM: Con la [unclear]
DC: Che lì c’erano un magazzino di roba m’hann detto della Madonna.
GM: Madonna.
DC: [laughs]
GM: [unclear]
DC: [laughs] Però, tu, petta adess bisogna che la va a chieder perché se no la mi madre, la mi moglie. Te vuoi andè a prender [speaks dialect] uno di sti dì?
GM: Sì, sì, la facciamo.
DC: Dai, così continuiamo il discorso del bombardamento di San Marino. Comunque te ti ricordi un sacco di roba.
GM: Sì, eh mi ricordo tutto quello che
DC: Petta eh, l’ultima roba che m’hann detto su quell’aereo che avete visto
GM: Sparire
DC: Sparire.
GM: Io, per me è cascat [unclear] quell’aereo
DC: Gli alleati, i loro colleghi hanno detto, è andato sul mare, è tornato sulla terra ed è esploso in volo. Dovrebbe essere caduto tra Gradara e Gabicce, quelle zone lì, Cattolica, quel settore lì.
GM: Quel settore lì è caduto quello lì, [unclear]
DC: Un mese prima di questo fatto, ma non so se te l’hai visto, era passato, basso stavolta, perché questo doveva essere abbastanza su, era passato un altro quadrimotore che avevo dietro le calcagna due aerei tedeschi che, un da sotto e un da sora il mitraglieva. Sono arrivati fino a San Clemente, anche lì si sono buttati tutti i paracadutisti tranne il mitragliere di coda che, poretto si vede che l’avevano ucciso quei, i caccia
GM: I caccia
DC: E poi questo qui è andato a cadere tra Levola, Saludecio, Montefiore, quelle zone là. Te questo, te lo ricordi un aereo grosso, basso, che lasciava il fumo, attaccato da due caccia?
GM: No, ma io mi ricordo un’altra roba, che eravamo a San Marino che una formazione di aerei tedeschi, inglesi che andava verso nord, che passavano
DC: Bombardieri
GM: Bombardieri che andavano verso la campagna
DC: Sì
GM: E lì si sono sfilati dall’aeroporto qui di Rimini
DC: Sono decollati da qui, gli sono andati dietro
GM: Sono andati dietro e lì c’è stato un [speaks dialect] quella volta ma era in [speaks dialect].
DC: Perché ha incominciato il bombardamento?
GM: Perché c’era, c’era i caccia inglesi che c’erano anche i [unclear]
DC: Quelli con due code?
GM: Con due code.
DC: Sì.
GM: Puttana la Madonna.
DC: Li han fatt combattiment?
GM: Combattiment [speaks dialect]
UI. [laughs]
GM: [speaks dialect] dopo l’è finì perché [speaks dialect]
DC: [unclear] Quindi erano anche abbastanza bassi.
GM: Bassi, si vedeva proprio [unclear], puttana madonna, e la formazione andava avanti. E c’era sto combattimento che avevano fatto sopra Cà Berlone [?], Santa Mustiola
DC: Però non è caduto nessun apparecchio, secondo te?
GM: Non ho visto cadere nessuno, io lì.
DC: Questo non me l’aveva mai raccontato nessuno.
GM: Ah e l’è cla volta l’è sta un cumbattiment
DC: Quanto potrà essere durato, cinque minuti, dieci minuti?
GM: Eh
DC: Gli ha sparà na [unclear]?
GM: Sì dieci minuti, sì, sette minuti sicuro.
DC: Secondo te quanti aerei ci potevano essere in questo combattimento?
GM: La formazione dei caccia, [unclear] ce ne erano due, tre, che giravano.
DC: E chi è il tedesco, secondo te?
GM: E il tedesco, penso, due o [unclear]
DC: Altrettanto.
GM: Altrettanto.
DC: A Monte Tauro c’è stato un combattimento aereo. Due aerei si sono andati anche a sbattere e quello americano è morto poeretto. Il tedesco si è buttato con il paracadute.
DC: Io ho visto una volta proprio in volo sopra Covignano [?] sempre dalla galleria allora che lì Covignano ogni tent i caccia
DC: Lì hanno attaccato di brutto.
Gm: [unclear] Una volta proprio ho visto, proprio presi in pieno con una cannonata.
DC: Ne è caduto uno di aereo sotto la chiesa di San Fortunato. E [speaks dialect], sai dove gl’è? A metà sulla spalla ho parlato con uno che stava nel Ghetto. Dopo la guerra lui, quando è finito i combattimenti, ha recuperato un motore che l’ha portato giù e l’ha venduto alla stracciaia. Se, come dici te, lo hanno preso, lui si è schiantato lì contro la costa, a metà costa.
GM: Dopo [unclear], il giorno dopo
DC: Che aereo era, secondo te? Era un caccia?
GM: Era un caccia, erano i famosi Spitfire, hai capito.
Ui: Uno si era schiantato alla garitta della dogana. Che aveva fatto l’attacco basso
GM: Anche
DC: L’ha sbagliè, non ha calcolato bene, ha strisciato il terreno, s’amazzè lì.
GM: S’amazzè lì. Ah, qui passeva da sopra lì quando vedevano, io mi ricordo una volta c’era due, tre camion tedeschi che passavano uno ogni tanto, no, perché stavano in distanza. Era sempre un tedes sora. La Madonna, l’era un caccia [speaks dialect] un caccia sopra
DC: Come l’ha visto, eh
GM: Come l’ha visto, puttana madonna, che il tedesco s’è buttè del camion e
DC: [laughs]
GM: [mimics machine gun sounding]
DC: [speaks dialect]
GM: [speaks dialect] Prima di, tra Verucchio e Borgo Maggiore, sulla strada lì.
DC: Arca madonna, sulla strada da, quello che girava
GM: Ah lì [unclear]
DC: Uno m’ha detto è tedesco ma aveva messo, un italiano, dovevano andare a Pesaro a prendere materiale. M’ha detto, m’avevano messo sopra il carro che io dovevo guardare [unclear] [laughs] ho detto, batti sulla cabina se vedi caccia che a buttèm a terra. Ha dett, se m’andè ben cla volta. Dai, che adesso ti lascio.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gino Muratori
Description
An account of the resource
Gino Muratori (b. 1929) recollects three Rimini bombings that occurred in November 1944, one of which was aimed at the Ausa river bridge. Mentions his grandmother losing two relatives when their boarding house was destroyed. Remembers how on 26 November 1944 they didn’t hear the alarm sounding and sought shelter only after seeing aircraft approaching. Describes evacuees being temporarily housed at local hotels. Remembers German anti-aircraft guns and barbed-wire fences, and recollects being employed by the Todt organization as a construction worker, toiling alongside Ukrainian and Polish prisoners of war deployed as truck drivers. Tells of his father being sent to Germany to work in a submarine factory. Discusses various anecdotes; dogfights; aircraft jettisoning fuel tanks; looting of private houses; strafing of German military transport; "Pippo" dropping flares and bombs at night time. Describes the whereabouts, use and general arrangement of German fortifications along the Adriatic coast.
Creator
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Daniele Celli
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-14
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:05:29 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMuratoriLG161125
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Rimini
Temporal Coverage
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1944-11
1944-11-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
forced labour
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/114/1173/ADelfinoG171029.1.mp3
82938fcfa0094b054fdc2fa441873da9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Delfino, Giovanni
Giovanni Delfino
G Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects her wartime experiences in the Milan and Cremona areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-29
Identifier
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Delfino, G
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ST: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre, l’intervistatrice è Sara Troglio, l’intervistato è Giovanni Delfino, e l’intervista ha luogo a casa dell’intervistato in [omitted] a Carate Brianza. Oggi è il 29 Ottobre 2017 e sono le ore 17. Volevo chiederti un po’ della tua vita prima della guerra, dove abitavate, appunto, ciò che ti ricordavi sul tuo quartiere.
GD: Allora, come ha già detto l’intervistatrice, sono Giovanni Delfino, classe 1933, ai tempi del racconto avevo undici anni, undici, dodici anni, perché parliamo del ’44-’45. Precedentemente all’avvenimento devo dire che la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era situato in Via Petitti al numero 11, che era una via adiacente alla Via Traiano che confinava con gli stabilimenti Alfa Romeo del Portello, i primi stabilimenti che erano stati fatti a Milano. Fino a quel momento, io la guerra l’avevo diciamo così sentita un po’ da lontano perché i miei genitori avevano provveduto a farmi sfollare nella zona di Cremona da nostri parenti dimodoché io ad un certo momento quando c’era un incursione aerea su Milano li sentivo solamente per sentito dire, oppure quando succedevano di notte da questa distanza che erano circa 60 chilometri, io vedevo i bagliori delle parti delle case incendiate eccetera perché essendo campagna tutta piatta si riusciva a vedere i bagliori da Milano. Caso vuole che ormai considerando che la guerra stava finendo, i miei genitori decisero di ritornare a casa e qui successe il fattaccio, successe il fattaccio perché dunque la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era adiacente ad un convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù, circondato da altissimi muraglioni alti, alti, alti, e intorno c’eran tutte, vuoi l’Alfa Romeo, e vuoi piccole aziende e altra campagna cioè prati, più che altro coltivazioni di ortaggi, eccetera eccetera. Dico questo perché una particolarità, tutte le siepi che circondavano queste ortaglie erano diciamo, luogo, diciamo, di ritrovo degli operai di queste ditte, piccole ditte che, finito l’orario di mensa, si mettevano per quei pochi minuti che rimanevano ancora a giocare a carte o a dama all’ombra di queste siepi. Il giorno che sto per raccontare era un giorno, non mi ricordo bene se luglio o agosto, era sul mezzogiorno. Gli operai erano tutti sotto queste siepi a giocare, eccetera eccetera. Io ero appena tornato da, dalla spesa, dall’aver fatto la spesa con mia mamma, che si trovava sull’androne del caseggiato insieme ad altre persone perché sotto c’era un bar, e insieme a un ufficiale dell’aereonautica militare italiana. Io ero lì che guardavo, curiosavo e la, come fanno tutti i bambini, questi operai che giocavano a carte, a dama, eccetera eccetera. A un certo momento, suona il piccolo allarme. Il piccolo allarme, allora c’era il piccolo allarme e il grande allarme. Il piccolo allarme veniva dato quando le squadriglie erano distanti abbastanza da Milano. In quel momento lì invece cosa successe? Successe che, con questo piccolo allarme, l’ufficiale che c’era insieme lì a mia mamma che stava chiacchierando, sentendo il rombo così degli aerei, guardò in alto e già a una certa distanza, essendo anche pratico, insomma, del mestiere [laughs], vide che c’era questa squadriglia altissima, altissima no, di Liberator, dice, famosi Liberator, e il caposquadriglia aveva fatto, aveva iniziato a fare una manovra, diciamo così, di circoscrizione della zona che, a detta dell’ufficiale dell’areonautica, era un segnale per, diciamo, l’inizio del bombardamento. Al che, l’ufficiale gridò subito: ‘Bombardano, bombardano!’, mia madre, immaginare lo spavento, io, come tutti i bambini che quando vengono richiamati dalle proprie madri, no, ci mettono una, due, tre volte prima di decidersi a rispondere, a obbedire, come sentii il grido di mia mamma, partii come un razzo e arrivai di volata, percorsi questi cinquanta, sessanta metri, quelli che potevano essere, arrivai sotto all’androne della casa. In quel momento arrivavano le prime bombe. Lo spostamento d’aria buttò mia madre, l’ufficiale ed io giù per la tromba delle scale, verso i rifugi, che normalmente una volta si chiamavano rifugi ma, insomma, erano quello che erano, erano le cantine, e fortunatamente in fondo alle scale c’era un mucchio di sabbia, che veniva messo per gli incendi, eventualmente spegnere gli incendi, e io ero davanti, dietro c’era mia mamma, l’ufficiale, e giù tutti a capo di collo e io mi infilai con la testa dentro nel mucchio della sabbia, mi ferii la testa, infatti sto facendo vedere ancora la cicatrice all’intervistatrice. E finisce così, frastuono, polvere, e devo dire che a distanza adesso di anni, ragionando adesso dai miei ottantaquattro anni, devo dire, sinceramente, che io non provai grande spavento perché probabilmente la situazione era stata così rapida, traumatica, improvvisa, imprevedibile, eccetera eccetera che non aveva lasciato il tempo di pensarci troppo, giusto? Alla fine, passa, passa il bombardamento, si esce. Spettacolo, allora sì, incominciamo ad avere una sensazione, così, non più di paura perché ormai non c’era più la paura ma di accoramento perché la strada era ormai tappezzata di macerie. Avanti di noi c’era una casa proprio che era sul limite della Alfa Romeo proprio, di quattro piani con, abitata da molti miei amici e ancora una casa di quelle vecchie, fatte di mattoni, non cemento armato, era letteralmente un cumulo di mattoni, un cumulo di macerie con sotto tutte le persone. [pause] Per fortuna la nostra casa, sì, aveva le persiane abbattute, finestre e i vetri rotti eccetera ma era ancora in piedi, non aveva subito danni, qualche scheggia eccetera perché? Faccio una piccola premessa doverosa. A quei tempi gli Alleati sapevano che, per esempio, l’Alfa Romeo aveva adottato per gli stabilimenti, per esempio di Pomigliano d’Arco a Napoli eccetera, il sistema di costruire i reparti sottoterra, per proteggerli dai bombardamenti. E allora loro, i bombardamenti, adottavano un sistema. Anziché usare bombe dirompenti, usavano bombe perforanti, le quali entravano sottoterra, e esplodevano, non alla quota diciamo zero, ma sottoterra. E così fecero anche per questo bombardamento, no. Questo per noi fu una salvezza perché, salvezza con una concomitanza anche di destino perché ad un certo momento, guardando poi la disposizione delle buche delle bombe di questo bombardamento a tappeto, vedemmo che quella bomba che in teoria, in pratica doveva arrivare su casa nostra, si era spostata di circa una cinquantina di metri, forse di più. Era andata a finire in una delle ortaglie. Andando a finire in una delle ortaglie, aveva perforato il terreno, aveva tirato su terra a non finire al punto che al terzo piano della nostra casa, sopra di noi abitava il padrone di casa, che aveva un terrazzo e con la terra che arrivò sul terrazzo riempì i vasi di fiori, non buttò via la terra, questo per dire. E questa è stata una fortuna, perché praticamente non c’è stato spostamento d’aria. Piccola premessa, piccola anzi parentesi, più che premessa, la vicinanza del convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù gridò, ci portò anche a dire, è stato anche un miracolo perché c’aveva protetto. Benissimo, prendiamo tutto per buono, l’importante che non ci era successo niente. Però, questo è un fatto che, mi dispiace quasi dirlo che, perché è un po’ macabro. Voi dovete pensare che le finestre della mia abitazione guardavano proprio su queste ortaglie, dove c’erano le siepi con quegli operai che stavano lavorando, che stavano giocando a carte eccetera eccetera. Non se ne salvò uno perché quella famosa bomba che è arrivata nell’ortaglia, sì, ha salvato la mia casa ma purtroppo non ha salvato gli operai. Bene, io non so per quanti mesi non mangiai più carne, ecco la storia macabra, perché dalle finestre di casa mia ogni tanto si vedeva il carro funebre del comune che andava a rovistare nell’ortaglia, non so cosa facessero però si vedeva che tiravano su delle cose, le mettevano dentro in sacchi di plastica e poi se ne andavano, basta, vi lascio pensare cosa potevano tirare su, senz’altro non carote e patate. E questo insomma è stato la mia esperienza bellica attribuita alle incursioni aeree. E voi dovete pensare, un particolare che può essere così anche di alleggerimento a questo racconto, in una, una dei crateri delle bombe che, essendo un bombardamento a tappeto, praticamente di bombe ne avevano sganciate un bel po’, era proprio vicino a casa nostra, no, e quando ci sono stati gli Alleati, da noi c’era un insediamento della Croce Rossa e allora c’erano degli italo-americani che si erano fatti amici dei miei genitori, venivano da noi a prendere il caffè, erano dei militari di Boston, mi ricordo ancora, no, bravissime, bravissime persone, no, e ovviamente io su suggerimento loro andavo in una delle buche di queste bombe, allora c’era qualche buca era adibita a raccolta di rifiuti diciamo umidi, e questa buca invece era adibita a rifiuti invece cartacei e lì c’era tutta la corrispondenza, le buste della corrispondenza che ricevevano i militari americani, e io, appassionato di filatelia, andavo a raccogliere dentro nella busta, [laughs] nella buca della bomba, andavo a raccogliere queste buste per togliere i francobolli che sono ancora qua nella mia collezione che quando li vedo mi viene un senso di, così di commozione perché a ottantaquattro anni ci si commuove anche per, guardando dei francobolli. Ecco questo per dirvi, questo bombardamento a tappeto cosa aveva prodotto, nel male 90% e nel bene 10% per i francobolli del Gianni Delfino, che sarei io.
SR: Prima mi parlavi di tuo papà e del suo lavoro in Alfa Romeo. Volevo chiederti.
GD: Sì, ecco sì, mio padre, noi abitavamo proprio vicini alla Alfa Romeo perché era abitudine, abitudine, si cercava chi lavorava in questi stabilimenti di metter su casa vicino per essere comodi, per non avere tanta strada da fare così. E mio padre aveva, ha lavorato la bellezza di quarantun’anni in Alfa Romeo, era un capolinea sulle dentatrici Gleason, di modo che io ho sempre mangiato pane e ingranaggi a casa mia, perché il suo da fare è raccontare, io ero figlio unico, era raccontare, a lui piaceva molto mettere al corrente, metterci al corrente di quello che succedeva sui posti di lavoro, sulle evoluzioni tecniche della costruzione degli ingranaggi eccetera eccetera, che, considerando che erano in Alfa Romeo, erano di altissima qualità perché sappiamo che l’Alfa Romeo allora insomma era una delle prime ditte italiane in fatto di costruzioni di automobili.
ST: E vi parlava anche della vita in fabbrica magari come succedevano, cosa succedeva durante i bombardamenti lì o episodi di resistenza?
GD: No, [unclear], se, ecco, quando avevano sentore di qualche allarme, sulla Via Renato Serra che era una via proprio che tagliava in due praticamente lo stabilimento dell’Alfa Romeo, avevano costruito degli enormi rifugi antiaerei di cemento armato, saran stati, avranno avuto minimo minimo un venti metri di diametro, dentro c’era tutta una, chiamiamo una scala a chiocciola, dove gli operai entravano, e poi man mano, tu, tu, tu, tuck, si sistemavano tutti seduti su questa scala a chiocciola eccetera; questi rifugi erano fatti anche con una punta conica, con una punta d’acciaio, proprio la cuspide in acciaio per fare in modo che se arrivasse, arrivava qualche bomba eccetera, era portata a scivolare via, insomma, non poteva dare l’impatto su questa. E questo è uno delle caratteristiche diciamo che mi ricordo. Poi, tu cosa, cosa mi chiedeva lei, scusi?
ST: Ti chiedevo se appunto lui magari parlava di, come reagivano gli operai durante i bombardamenti.
GD: Ah, niente, no, guardi, ormai c’era un’assuefazione tale che a un certo momento niente, non dico che quando c’era il bombardamento ‘oh che bellezza, così non lavoriamo!’, però insomma non è che si, oddio, gli operai la preoccupazione erano per i familiari a casa perché loro si sentivano superprotetti in questi bunker no, però purtroppo, come abbiamo visto, se ci fosse stato un operaio che aveva dei parenti nella casa di fianco alla mia, eh, vi lascio ben immaginare quale poteva essere stato il suo stato d’animo alla sera quando sarebbe uscito dal suo rifugio e fosse andato a casa sua ecco. Questo non, eh, niente.
ST: E i tuoi genitori parlavano della guerra o del regime, si scambiavano opinioni politiche quando erano in casa, anche davanti a te?
GD: Sì, sì, sì, sì, non è che si, cioè per quanto potessi capire io a dodici anni però a un certo momento qualcosa capivo anche perché posso dire perché tanto non è un segreto, mio padre non era di idee di regime. [background noise] Diciamo, sei possiamo dire all’opposto, abbiamo detto tutto. E a tal riguardo io potrei, mi piacerebbe raccontare un fatto molto, molto significativo, che elude da quello che è i bombardamenti, l’incursione aerea così, però è un fatto umano molto interessante. Il reparto di mio padre era decentrato a Usmate, un paese qui nella periferia di Milano. Mio padre così, forse, così, godeva di grande stima da ambo le parti, dalla direzione che senz’altro politicamente non la pensava come lui, dagli operai che politicamente qualcuno anche pensava come lui, e da, diciamo dei gruppi, diciamo partigiani, ecco, diciamo il termine giusto come deve essere, anche perché mio padre faceva parte della Brigata Garbialdi, parliamo chiaro, Garibaldi prima civile, non armata non, però questo cosa gli faceva fare? Voi pensate, quando era il giorno di paga, mio padre prendeva la bicicletta, mettevano le paghe in una borsa di cuoio normale che veniva messa a cavallo della canna della bicicletta, come si fa quando si mette dentro la merenda, oppure la colazione eccetera, e lui partiva lemme, lemme da Milano, prendeva la Gallaratese, trac andava verso Usmate eccetera eccetera a portare le paghe. Voi dovete pensare che, strada facendo, spesso e volentieri incontrava partigiani, che saltavano fuori un po’ da tutte le parti. Non l’hanno mai fermato una volta. Primo, perché sapevano chi era, poi perché, onestamente, erano partigiani onesti. Perché uso la parola onesti? Perché dobbiamo essere consapevoli che, a quei tempi, l’onestà non è che era una bandiera che tutti sventolavano; l’onestà era un piccolo vessillo privato che ognuno, alle volte cercava quasi di tenere di nascosto, per non farsi vedere troppo onesto. E allora probabilmente lui ha avuto la fortuna di incontrare sempre queste persone che, conoscendolo ed essendo onesti, non l’hanno mai fermato e non gli hanno mai portato via una lira. Lui arrivava sempre sul posto e portava le paghe agli operai di Usmate. Questo è un fatto molto molto importante e significativo perché purtroppo si sentono tanti racconti non belli di persone che approfittavano della loro idea politica e del loro grado, soprattutto idea politica, per fare anche nefandezze. A me piacerebbe, se è consentito, poi casomai sarà l’intervistatrice che taglierà, perché ad un certo momento io in questa intervista avevo fatto una riflessione, ero stato preparato dalla signorina Troglio, perché io, in mezzo a queste cose qui, così tragiche, volevo dire due cose significative, molto molto belle, che io devo cercare di non farmi prendere dalla commozione, intanto che le racconterò. Allora, noi avevamo undici dodici anni. Non è che si patisse la fame però ci si arrangiava come ragazzi a, insomma, a cercare dove, noi per esempio andavamo in queste ortaglie, che dicevo, a prendere, a rubare, a prendere le zucche, poi a fette le portavamo in questa casa di quattro piani, cumulo di macerie che vi ho descritto, c’era un fornaio e noi le portavamo quando il forno era spento però ancora caldo, portavamo le fette di zucca verso le tre, quattro del pomeriggio e poi le andavamo a prendere alle sette, alle otto, perché erano belle cotte e ce le mangiavamo. Ecco, questo per dire un particolare ma questo qui è un particolare ameno. Ma invece quello che ho detto che mi dà commozione ancora è questo. In Viale Certosa c’era tutto il filiare di platani. Ora, a un certo momento il comando tedesco aveva dato ordine di abbattere il platani, probabilmente non era, era per una questione di approvvigionamento di legna da ardere perché chiunque vi insegna che se c’è un filare di alberi e ci sono dei mezzi militari ci tengono a non abbatterli perché essendo nascosti dietro gli alberi gli aerei non li vedono. Perciò sarebbe stato assurdo un bel viale alberato, andare ad abbattere gli alberi quando, però abbiamo capito che era perché anche loro poveretti insoma c’avevano bisogno di legna da ardere. Bene. Particolare bellissimo, bellissimo, cioè noi arriviamo davanti a questo albero, noi siamo in due o tre amici che siamo lì a guardare abbattere l’albero con le borse della spesa in mano. C’è un tedesco con l’ascia che sta abbattendo l’albero. Ovviamente saltano via le schegge di legno, noi ragazzi raccogliavamo le schegge di legno per portarle a casa e accendere la stufa. Questo giovane tedesco, soldato tedesco, me lo ricordo ancora, faceva apposta a far fatica a fare le schegge più grosse per far in modo che noi, anziché le schegge piccole avessimo dei pezzi di legno più grossi da portar via, questa è una cosa che io, mentre la sto dicendo, mi sto commovendo, perché è una cosa che, niente, con questo io non sto difendendo il soldato tedesco tout court. No, per l’amor del cielo, eh, lungi da me, niente, sto riferendo un fatto mio personale che è molto, molto, molto importante. E il secondo fatto, e io ho già detto che nella mia famiglia, avete già capito le idee politiche quali potevano essere, però in quel momento, noi dobbiamo ricordare che negli anni ’40 eccetera, si era tutti infollarmati [sic], si era molto tutti, io ero un figlio della lupa, dico la verità, avevo la mia divisina anch’io, no, eccetera, e io mi ricorderò sempre un altro fatto importantissimo. Di fianco a noi, di fianco a questo convento delle suore c’era anche e c’è ancora un, diciamo, un ricovero eccetera, un’opera, dove erano ricoverati gli orfani, degli orfanelli, erano gli orfani di Padre Beccaro, esiste ancora eccetera. , Benissimo, a un certo momento c’era la scritta sopra, c’era scritto, ‘Opera derelitti di Padre Beccaro’. Derelitti è una parola italiana normale che vuol dire ‘abbandonati’, non è un’offesa, no? Bene. A un certo momento, arriva il Duce, arriva il Duce, tutto il rione in subbuglio, tutte, non tanto gli uomini perché erano al lavoro ma tutte le donne coi figli: ‘Arriva il Duce andiamo a vedere cosa farà questo Duce!’. Io me lo ricordo ancora adesso, come mi ricordo il tedesco là che faceva, io me lo ricordo ancora arrampicato su una scala, mia moglie, mia mamma eccetera, con le lacrime agli occhi insieme ad altri, io no perché io non capivo, perché io avrò avuto sei, sette anni, otto anni, quello che è, e avevano preparato, solo la parola, la parola ‘derelitti’ era stata tutta inbiancata. E lui, me lo ricordo, io chiudo gli occhi, me lo vedo ancora sulla scala, col pennello di vernice nera, che ha scritto ‘piccoli’, ‘Opera piccoli di Padre Beccaro’, ancora adesso se andate a vedere, c’è scritto ‘opera piccoli’ adesso fatta bene ovvio, aveva fatto togliere la parola ‘derelitti’ perché non voleva, ecco. Parliamo chiaro, è propaganda, cioè non sto dicendo che in quel momento lì il Duce si è svegliato una mattina e preso da un rimorso, ‘oh, io devo andare’, no, quello no, propaganda eccetera, però sono quelle cose che, cioè riflettendo adesso, dico ma, pensate un pochettino cosa può fare un regime per riuscire a imbonirsi eccetera, le persone. Oh, lì c’era una massa di donne che piangevano perché vedevano il Duce che stava scrivendo la parola ‘piccoli’ e infatti bisogna dire, è un fatto che non è riprovevole, anche encominabile perché insomma uno che tira via la parola ‘derelitti’ e ci mette ‘piccoli’, insomma tanto di cappello, giusto? Se l’avesse fatto un prete, sarebbe stata la stessa cosa. Ecco questo è il secondo fatto, diciamo così ameno, leggero che volevo mettere insieme al bombardamento.
ST: Ma, volevo chiederti, a scuola, com’era la vita a scuola durante la guerra, se avevano parlato di bombardamenti o vi parlavano della guerra in corso.
GD: No, dunque, allora devi pensare questo, io premesso, io un certo momento, nonostante le idee eccetera però si era presi dentro in un canale, io ero un figlio della lupa, avevo la mia bella divisina, ci tenevo a andare alla Scuola Pietro Micca di Via Gattamelata a fare le mie riunioni eccetera tutto così eccetera e non sono mai diventato Balilla perché siccome sono sfollato di modo ché non ho fatto in tempo. Io la terza, la quarta, la quinta l’ho fatta a Castelleone in quel di Cremona, perciò a un certo momento là per me la guerra non esisteva più, il fascio non esisteva più, cioè, ero ben lontano là, vivevo in mezzo ai campi contadini, per me insomma ormai, per me la vita era con le mucche, i tori, i cavalli eccetera eccetera, no, ecco. E perciò direi che mah, sì, io a un certo momento, più che la guerra in sé stesso, eccetera eccetera, ricordo due o tre fatti, proprio rapidissimi, così, per esempio, i fascisti scappano da Milano, c’erano i giovani della X Mas eccetera, eccetera, che mi ricordo che passavano da Viale Certosa, quel viale dove avevano abbattuto gli alberi e, io dico adesso alla mia età, con una paura addosso, perché chissà che paura avevano, erano, passavano coi camion, e sparavano sulle finestre perché non volevano che la gente si affacciasse a vedere che loro stavano scappando. Questo me lo ricordo perché casa mia, praticamente, Via Petitti è all’inizio era dopo c’era Viale Certosa perciò io da casa mia vedevo le case di Viale Certosa e quando sono passati sentendo il crepitio delle armi mi avevano detto ’Sì, sono i giovincelli del fascio che stanno sparando sulle finestre, perché probabilmente si vergognano per vedere che stavano scappando’. E invece l’altro fatto, l’altro fatto invece increscioso che mi ricordo, mi ricordo quello l’ho visto io,l’ho visto non visto fare ma visto dopo, quando hanno incominciato a fare le epurazioni che in Via Poliziano hanno preso la Ferida e Osvaldo Valenti, che erano i due attori, e a un certo momento li hanno fucilati lì sul marciapiede. Quella è stata una cosa che, ecco, io ricordo più, diciamo mi ha fatto più effetto il dopoguerra che la guerra, perché il dopoguerra per esempio c’era l’ingegner, faccio un nome, l’ingegner Gobbato. L’ingegnier Gobbato è un ingegnere dell’Alfa Romeo, bravissima persona, detto da mio padre, guardi, una cosa eccetera, ma era fascista, perché per forza, là tutti da un certo grado in sù, dai capi in sù dovevano essere per forza iscritti al fascio, perché altrimenti vivevano male, no? E a un certo momento si vede che qualcuno ce l’aveva su, dopo l’epurazione, a un certo momento l’hanno trovato in mezzo alla neve, fuori dell’Alfa Romeo, ammazzato eccetera, no? Ecco lì sono cose che si ricordano, si ricordano molto, molto, molto, molto, per far capire un pochetto cosa vuol dire cosa sono le, come si può dire, le vendette personali. E io posso dire che sotto di noi abitava un fascista. A un certo momento è stato preso e portato a San Vittore. Era una brava persona. Dopo un po’ di giorni è tornato a casa. Questo per dire che non era tanto perché uno avesse l’iscrizione al fascio o non al fascio, tutto dipendeva dall’indole della persona, una persona poteva essere malvagia o persona buona, e persona, e questo sono i vari ricordi. Oddio, questa è un’intervista che è partita con un tema ben preciso e cioè incursioni aeree eccetera eccetera, la RAF minga la RAF eccetera eccetera. Niente, potremmo farla un’altra, io ho aggiunto qualche particolare, potrei aggiungere altri particolari interessanti di vita bellica però su un altro tema, cioè il tema: vita bellica di un ragazzo eccetera eccetera. Si potrà fare un domani eccetera perché ci sono dei.
ST: Se vuoi anche ora.
GD: Degli altri, degli altri, ci sono degli altri avvenimenti importanti, per esempio, uno devo dirlo, devo dirlo perché.
ST: Racconta pure tutto quello che vuoi.
GD: E’ più forte di me. Allora, mio zio, anzi se la qui presente eccetera vuole anche con il telefonino filmare, riprendere un attimino quello che sto dicendo eccetera eccetera, mio zio era carrista sui carri armati M11 e diciamo zona di El Alamein, tanto per intenderci, carri armati M11 erano carri armati. L’M, avevano l’arma in torretta, poi furono trasformati in M13 con l’arma nello scafo, cioè praticamente fissa nello scafo, non nella torretta. Ovviamente con i carri armati inglesi bastava un colpo ben assestato che partiva via tutto, erano degli scatolini e io devo dire che mio zio era carrista, lui era capocarro a parte che a capocarro lì erano dentro in due o tre mi sembra, non è che come adesso sono dentro in cinque sei. E in una battaglia, mi ricorderò sempre, mi disse, stavano andando, a un certo momento colpiti da altri carri, a un certo momento un colpo tremendo, deve immaginare il frastuono tremendo eccetera eccetera tutto, a un certo momento, lui, il cannoniere era sopra di lui, lui era nello scafo, il cannoniere, e lui a un certo momento [screams] a cominciato a gridare, prende la gamba del cannoniere e gli dice, uè te, lo chiama per nome, cosa è successo, e gli è rimasto in mano la gamba. Praticamente il colpo aveva portato via la torretta, il cannoncino e mezzo cannoniere. Questo è stato il trauma di mio, al punto che mio zio è saltato fuori dal carro, si è spogliato, si è messo in mutande, si è messo con le mani alzate, e ha sperato che non ci fosse nessuno che lo colpisse. È stato fatto prigioniero. Ecco, questo non è per vigliaccheria, questo per dire come ci si trova. È stato fatto prigioniero, portato in Africa, bla, bla, bla, bla, tutto eccetera eccetera eccetera, rimpatriato, ehm, parte la nave, siluro, tutti mezzi morti, mio zio fortunamente aveva il mal di mare, era andato in coperta e si era addormentato su un rotolo di corde, giusto, e questo l’ha salvato perché è stato buttato a mare, è stato la bellezza di dodici ore a bagnomaria in acqua e poi è stato salvato dagli inglesi. Portato ancora in campo di concentramento, in Africa così, faceva il cuoco, stava benissimo, eccetera, eccetera. Precedentemente, voi dovete pensare che, per la sete, arrivavano a bere l’acqua dei radiatori del carro armato. Non gliene fregava niente se il carro armato poi si fermava, piuttosto che morire di sete bevevano l’acqua. E infatti mio zio poi dopo reduce a casa così, quando è deceduto, è deceduto anche perché aveva lo stomaco un po’. Ma il fatto invece bellissimo, bellissimo, uguale a uno di quelli che mi ricordo, è: io sono sfollato a Castelleone, ritorna mio zio reduce dalla prigionia, siamo in questo paese, la prima cosa che fece, mi ricordo guardi anche, me lo sento adesso, mi prende, mi porta fuori in campagna, c’era una roggia che si chiamava la Seriola, si chiama la Seriola, è un affluente del fiume Serio che incrocia sopra la Seriola, ci sono dei canali in cemento per portare l’acqua, eh cosa fanno, mica possono, allora facevano i canali, fanno i canali in cemento. E c’era uno di questi canali in cemento con dentro l’acqua corrente che se la Seriola era non so a diciotto gradi, lì l’acqua sarà stata a dodici gradi, forse a dieci. La soddisfazione di questa persona, reduce, arriva a casa, saluta i parenti, la prima cosa che fa, prende il Gianni, che ero io, andiamo in campagna, andiamo alla Seriola, ci spogliamo e in mutande dentro a bagnomaria nella corrente, a sentire quest’acqua fresca, fresca, freddissima, gelata. Io a un certo momento seguivo lo zio, e, cioè vabbè, non è che, mi piaceva, mi piaceva il fatto, non tanto perché io sentivo freddo ma io mi ricordo la soddisfazione di questo uomo a essere al suo paese, vivo, e immerso nell’acqua gelida, bella corrente, che avrà sognato non so per quanti anni, per quanti anni, per quanti anni. Bellissimo, bellissimo, sono dei fatti questi che sono, sono indimenticabili, indimenticabili, indimenticabili. E io torno a dire, la mia memoria ormai è quella che è: non mi ricordo quasi cosa ho mangiato a mezzogiorno, però questi fatti qui sono indelebili nella mia mente e mi fa tanto, tanto, tanto piacere perché io, come tutti i vecchi, chissà quante volte le ho già raccontate a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, magari annoiandoli anche, mi fa piacere che questa volta così ho potuto lasciarli a una persona che magari ne può far tesoro, insieme ad altre testimonianze.
ST: Volevo farti un’ultimissima domanda.
GD: Sì. Dica.
ST: MI parlavi appunto dell’attivitò partigina di tuo papà. Lui in fabbrica era sabotatore quindi? Cosa?
GD: Sì, ah allora, [laughs], a un certo momento, dovete pensare anche questo: quando si parla di sabotaggio, sabotaggio non vuol dire mettere un ordigno esplosivo, far saltar per aria qualcosa eccetera. Sabotaggio c’è anche il sabotaggio intelligente. Il sabotaggio intelligente, che è molto pericoloso perché può essere frainteso come un finto sabotaggio. Cioè, lui essendo un capolinea perciò a un certo momento aveva anche una responsabilità verso gli operai, doveva stare attento anche che gli operai non facessero delle cavolate di loro iniziativa, però loro a un certo momento, se c’era, a un certo momento avevano capito che c’erano dei pezzi che facevano, che non c’entravano niente coi motori Alfa Romeo, erano dei pezzi che venivano fatti poi incellofanati tutti, oliati, eccetera, erano pezzi di V1, venivano mandati in Germania. E mi ricordo perché me ne portò a casa anche qualche dopo la guerra erano rimasti in magazzino, e mi diceva: ‘vedi, questi qui sono pezzi che facevamo per lavoro’, in modo che potete immaginare il controllo dei tedeschi come era, [makes a rhythmic noise], com’era pressante, no, eccetera, in modo che bisognava stare attenti di, se c’era da fare mille pezzi, cercare di farne ottocento, non cento, però ottocento, insomma duecento meno. Per fare questo, le macchine dovevano andare non troppo bene, però non potevano essere manomesse col dire ‘Ah io faccio bruciare il motore elettrico, la macchina non va più!’. No, deve essere sempre il solito bullone semisvitato, il solito dado che manca, il solito filo che si è spelato e ha fatto un po’, e non fa più contatto ma basta riagganciarlo e la macchina riparte, però intanto si perdono le ore, eccetera eccetera, ecco questo era stato fatto, questo mi raccontava che loro sabotaggio ne facevano, però era un sabotaggio, infatti non c’è mai stato in Alfa Romeo una rappresaglia e che erano curati perché, dovete pensare che uno degli azionisti dell’Alfa Romeo era Benito Mussolini, figuriamoci no. Eh, e questo è quello che mi raccontava dei sabotaggi che facevano quando si erano accorti che facevano i pezzi per la V1. E io li ho visti, bellissimi, tutti incartati in carta cellofan, tutto oliato, tutto per bene in scatolette, tutti, sì. Questo, ecco l’unica cosa di sabotaggio che posso dire è questo, altro non saprei. Abbiamo finito? Finito? Alla prossima puntata.
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Title
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Interview with Giovanni Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
Giovanni Delfino was at first evacuated to the Cremona area, where he could see the glow of the distant bombings. He then came back to Milan only to witness a bomb nearly missing his house and killing factory workers. He describes the gruesome sight of undertakers picking up maimed bodies and scattered humans remains: the scene was so shocking that he avoided meat for a while. He recalls wartime episodes: being hurled into a cellar by the blast wave and landing on a pile of sand; stealing pumpkins from a nearby plot and covertly baking them in a ruined house oven; searching for stamps in a bomb crater; the public execution of the actors Osvaldo Valenti and Luisa Ferida; an act of kindness of a German soldier and post-war revenges. He retells his father’s wartime experiences as Resistance runner and Alfa Romeo factory worker: slowing down war-related production; manufacturing V-1 parts destined to Germany, a description of the factory shelter. He mentions his uncle’s wartime experience as tank man, mentioning harsh conditions, a gruesome combat episode in North Africa, surviving torpedoing and being picked up by the Royal Navy.
Creator
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Sara Troglio
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-10-29
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
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00:41:14 audio recording
Language
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ita
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ADelfinoG171029
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Cremona
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Resistance
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/316/Memoro 14586.1.mp3
ad4056524d8abf6a4e1b2d27975396f8
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GS: Na ja, und dann war ich halt bei meiner Tante in Eberbach, bin dort in die Schule gegangen, in Ferien natürlich wieder gern zurück zu meiner Mutter und da habe ich halt immer des Pech gehabt das ich alle grosse Luftangriffe mitgemacht hab, ja. Und da kam noch dazu während des Krieges konnte man ab der dritten Klasse schon praktisch also damals in die höhere Schule gehen. Da hat meine Mutter des packst du also gehst gleich von der dritte Klasse ab.
NCCS: Gleich übersprungen.
GS: Sagte da hast’n Jahr gewonnen. Ich muss sagen, ich war so’n Nachkömmling und hatte sehr alte Eltern. Und des ging dann alles schön und gut aber meine, ich war Jahrgang ’29 und meine Klasse war ’27-’28 Jahrgang und die mußten arbeiten dann in den Ferien, drei Wochen beim Bauer und so, na ich musste dann halt auch. Dann wurde man eingeteilt, dan bin ich von Eberbach drei Kilometer zu nächste Dorf gelaufe, hab dann dort beim Bauer gearbeitet aber jetzt als Stadtkind [pauses] sollte man Kartoffel hacken oder Rüben hacken auf’m Feld, man hatte keine Ahnung.
NCCS: Und es war körperlich anstrengend.
GS: Ja, es war körperlich anstrengend aber man hat versucht und dann wurde man verschimpt wenn man ‘ne Rübe ang’hackt hat. Und dann einmal mußten wir auch Heu machen, war ich dabei, hatte keine Ahnung von Heu, man hat’s alles in der Wochenschau g’sehn wenn die mit’n Wagen so gefahren sind, die saßen oben drauf haben gesungen und so. Und Von Heumachen ich hatte keine Ahnung und hatte, es war Hochsommer, nur ein Sporthemd an und eine Sporthose. Und hatte dann einen Sonnenbrand ganz dicke Blasen auf de Schulter überall. Dann kam ich nach Hause zu meiner Tante, kam meine Kusine die war ein bisschen älter wie ich hat “oh des sitzt so schon” hat mir auf die Blase draufgedrückt, da ist die aufg’sprunge, es war grauenhaft, ich lag dann mit Schüttelfrost im Bett und, man hat das alles überstanden da aber das war schon schlimm.
NCCS: Harte Zeit.
GS: Ja. Na ja und dann war der Krieg vorbei und dann ging’s halt weiter mit der Schule und ich muss sagen wir waren dann alle die dann weitergemacht haben bis zum Abitur waren dann ja in Eberbach es war eine wunderschöne Schulzeit. Wir haben uns dann sehr gut verstanden und haben uns gegenseitig geholfen, wir hatten ja keine Bücher, kaum Papier, nix. Also wir haben dann auch gemeinsam gearbeitet, es war eine wunderschone Schulzeit dann bis zum Abi und wir treffen uns heut noch, die letzten.
NCCS: Ein schöner Gemeinschaftsgeist.
GS: Ja ja.
NCCS: Kein Egoismus.
GS: Nein nein nein. Weil ja wo eben jeder ein Buch oder was gehabt hat, von älteren Brüdern, das wurde dann von allen benutzt oder gemeinsam benutzt das wir alle zusammen eben gearbeitet haben. Und des is, treffen wir uns heute noch, der Rest der noch da ist, der kleine kleine Rest. Aber ich muss sagen auch die ganzen Klassenkameraden dann die waren alle mutterteil als Soldaten im Krieg, die haben fürchterliches erlebt aber es wurde alles verdrängt, es wurde nie drüber gesprochen. [unclear] haben wir’s gesagt wir müssen des verdrängen oder wir haben des verdrängt sonst könnten wir gar net weitermachen.
NCCS: Ganz grosses Thema diese Verdrängung weil man dann ja nicht aufarbeitet.
GS: Man kann’s net aufarbeiten. Man muss es verdrängen [pauses] den wenn’s dann sehn wenn die Leute dann umkommen durch die Bomben und sie sehen die Toten und alles des muss man verdränge, des geht net anders. Wenn ma weitermachen will. Es gab ja auch keine wie heut wenn irgend was is heut sind die Psychologen da die des alles aufarbeiten. Da hatte ja mit jedem arbeiten praktisch müssen, alt und jung, des gab’s halt net. Es wurde verdrängt. Anders, anders anders ging’s gar net. Es waren die schlechten Zeiten aber dann später nach dem Krieg ging’s halt aufwärts, da hatt man dann auch viel schönes dann, man war mit wenig zufrieden und hatt dann auch viel Schönes erlebt, es war halt dann schon eine Gemeinschaft da und..
NCCS: Der Optimismus kam zurück.
GS: Bitte?
NCCS: Die Menschen waren optimistisch.
GS: Ja ja ja.
NCCS: Wir haben dann teilweise die Jugend nachgeholt.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gisela Schäfer
Description
An account of the resource
Gisela Schäfer (b. 1929) remembers her youth in Eberbach as schoolgirl. Stressed how unlucky she was, having experienced all major bombings in the area. Remembers spending her school holidays as farmhand and emphasises how it was physically strenuous for a city girl who also had no clue of the various tasks. Emphasises the happy time she spent at school after the war, and the long lasting friendships she built with her classmates. Stresses how wartime memories have been repressed because of the impossibility to deal with them.
Format
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00:06:04 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#14586
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Eberbach
Rights
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Language
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deu
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Creator
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Nikolai C C Schulz
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/PBirelliG1701.1.jpg
9c75ae32c45c0ae26726392ca6e85d6c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/ABirelliG171223.2.mp3
09f10c8588a2ca32dff84c4370287a0a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Birelli, Giuliana
Giuliana Birelli
G Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giuliana Birelli who recollects her wartime experiences in rural Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Birelli, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GF: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Greta Fedele. L’intervistato è Birelli Giuliana. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted], presso la casa della signora Giuliana il 23 dicembre 2017.
GB: Allora.
GF: Grazie mille per aver accettato di parlare con noi. Volevo chiederle, così per iniziare, prima che iniziasse la guerra, quanti anni aveva, dove viveva, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, quello che vuole.
GB: Allora io avevo sei anni. Già parte?
GF: Sì, sì.
GB: Sei anni e vivevo a Lisciano Niccone Perugia, Perugia, per cui ero una bambina piccola mi ricordo appena appena. Mio papà e la mia mamma, c’avevano, facevano il contadino e a noi bimbi che eravamo otto, otto bimbi, ci ha portato tutto in mezzo ai boschi, ci ha fatto tutto come un rifugio in mezzo ai boschi e siamo stati lì giorno e notte perché i tedeschi venivano casa per casa. A un certo punto quando sono arrivati, non so se erano i partigiani che bombardavano, hanno bombardato un ponte da Lisciano Niccone per andare a Mercatale, quel ponte lì l’hanno spianato. Mercatale di Cortona, Arezzo. Era un’altra provincia, non era Perugia. Comunque a noi c’hanno spazzato la casa, portavano via vino, portavano via prosciutti, se trovavano le ragazze, le molestavano anche, le facevano del male, e in più, eh niente, i uomini li prendevano, li portavano via. E la mia mamma, che era una donna che aveva otto figli, per andare a trovare un figlio all’ospedale sono stati rapinati dai tedeschi. E loro, posso andà avanti?
GF: Certo, certo.
GB: E loro, eh, cioè, briachi come erano, l’avevano portati al loro rifugio. Erano due signore, la mamma, la mia mamma, e un’amica che andavano a trovare na figlia che era operata in ospedale a Perugia, cosa hanno fatto? Quei tedeschi lì si erano addormentati che erano talmente briachi, loro piano piano piano sono scappati, sono andati da na famiglia e sono riusciti a scappare, se no, non so cosa gli capitava. Poi eh, io che posso dire?
GF: Ma si ricorda il giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra?
GB: eh, [unclear]
GF: Cosa stava facendo? Se era a scuola, era a casa? Come gliel’hanno detto i suoi genitori?
GB: E [unclear], quando è scoppiata la guerra io non ti so dire.
GF: Ok.
GB: Quando è finita praticamente, finita di, a giugno mi sembra, no? Che dopo c’erano, erano arrivati i tedeschi, erano arrivati i americani per liberare l’Italia, no? E dopo è finita quella maniera lì. Io non mi ricordo più di niente eh perché ci vogliono i vecchi eh che si ricordano ste cose [laughs], non una bambina così.
GB: E quando andava a scuola durante la guerra, si ricorda se le maestre le, vi spiegavano cosa stava succedendo? Come vi dovevate comportare?
GB: Era già finita la guerra quando io sono andata a scuola, perché allora si andava da sette anni. Io non avevo sette in anni in quel momento lì. Allora no, con le maestre se ne parlava dopo di guerre che avevano distrutto proprio il paese ma no, quel momento della guerra io a scuola non andavo. E niente, così. E portato via tutti i prosciutti, tutti de, i maiali, le bestie perché prendevano anche le bestie grandi, le mucche, i vitelli, portavano tutti i tedeschi eh.
GF: E sono venuti proprio nella vostra casa?
GB: Casa, sì, sì, sì, sì, noi si dormiva al bosco c’aveva fatto il rifugio il papà, no? Aveva fatto il rifugio a noi, [unclear] stava giorno e notte su, lu camminava, li curava dove andavano, perché andavano a gruppi loro, no? Fare kaput dicevano, hai capito? Allora li curava, andava giù, prendeva la roba per darci da mangiare. Portava anco le bestie, aveva fatto il rifugio anco per le bestie perché spazzavano via tutto eh.
GF: E avevate paura?
GF: Cavoli, molta paura, molta paura perché si sentivano, arrivavano i caccia, arrivavano i caccia proprio e, Perugia è montagne e pianura, no? Venivano fuori dalla montagna, sembrava ti cadessero addosso, sì, sì, questo me lo ricordo bene eh. Che ancora quando li vedi hai quel punto di paura, sì.
GF: Perché li vedeva vicino questi aerei.
GB: Vicino, cioè sbucavano dalla montagna, s’abbassavano proprio, è na cosa che è rimasta proprio da noialtri bambini, mhm mhm mhm. E niente, dopo io non so cosa ti devo dire.
GF: E suonavano gli alarmi quando si avvicinavano questi aerei per avvisarvi?
GB: No, no, no, niente allarmi da quelle parti lì, niente allarmi, niente, niente, no, no, nessuno ti avvisava che scoppiava una mina, che arrivavano magari dalla montagna a fianco buttavano la mina dall’altra parte, niente, arrivava il boom della mina e basta, hai capito? Io mi ricordo che finita cioè era giugno che si falciavano il grano e na mina mi è caduta proprio dove falciavano il grano, aveva fatto una buca che sembrava che chissà cos’era caduta. Di morti no, però lo spavento tanti, tanti, tanto spavento. Loro che erano con tutti sti bambini piccoli figurati, ero la penultima, eh.
GF: Quindi aveva dei fratelli più grandi.
GB: Erano tutti più grandi,
GF: Tutti più grandi.
GB: Quegli altri, tutti ragazzini erano capisci. Sposata era una sola e il fratello, quello che è morto adesso, se no le altre erano tutte piccole, quelle più grandi di me ce n’erano tre femmine, tre ragazze. Dopo.
GF: E I suoi fratelli maschi? Qualcuno era soldato all’epoca o erano troppo piccoli?
GB: No, no, erano troppi piccoli per andare soldati. No, no, loro non, cioè, noi dalla nostra parte militari nessuno, no. E il papà non l’ha fatto, non l’hanno preso perché aveva tutti figli hai capito? Aveva questi otto figli, non poteva, e poi andare a fare il militare perché c’aveva anco il papà e la mamma vecchi, nonni. Eh, hai capito? La casa non era sbarcata, non avevano toccato la casa solo che noi l’avevamo abbandonata dalla paura. Mhm mhm mhm.
GF: Ehm, e quindi mi diceva che spesso questi aerei volavano vicino a voi.
GB: Sì, vicino, sì, sì, uscivano dalla montagna, della montagna di Passignano sul Trasimeno, sempre Perugia e lì, eh, Lisciano Niccone su una vallata piana. E uscivano da quella montagna, sembrava che toccavano i rami delle piante poi si abbassavano, [makes a lowpitched droning noise] e partivano tutte, sì, si.
GF: E sganciavano delle bombe?
GB: E dalle parti sì eh, dalle parti delle montagne le lanciavano, no sulla pianura.
GF: E voi lo vedevate?
GB: E sì eh, le si hann viste, io due bombe ho visto a scoppiare, dalla campagna dove mietevano il grano, dove falciavano il grano e dalla vallata proprio dove a fianco di noi della nostra casa. Eh sì!
GF: E si ricorda che sentimenti ha provato in quel momento?
GB: Brivido di paura, brivido di paura che adesso è la fine, se per caso invece di prendere la montagna di là prendevano dove, perché tutti i contadini avevano fatto il rifugio dalle montagne, dal bosco, no? Ma se per caso ti prende di qua che non c’è nessuno prendevano lì, spianavano le famiglie intere, sì. Eh, paura, molta paura, piccola però ti ricordi ancora quel brivido lì. Mhm mhm.
GF: E suo papà le raccontava cosa stava succedendo?
GB: Eh, veniva su, aveva paura, ‘stete dentro, stete dentro’, sai noi ragazzine, eh si giocava, noi, zitti zitti, si doveva sempre stare zitti, sempre a silenzio. E io ero quasi la più piccola, però quelle altre che erano ragazzine più grande, c’è sempre tre anni, una tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, c’erano anche ce avevano quasi vent’anni eh, più anche. Eh no, comunque è stata una cosa, che io la so raccontare male perché ero piccolina ma i vecchi se c’era qualche vecchio la raccontava meglio di me, sicuro, sicuro. E niente così.
GF: Quindi stavate in questo rifugio in mezzo ai boschi che aveva costruito suo papà.
GB: In mezzo al bosco, in mezzo al bosco, tutti coperti, tutte, tutte, aveva fatto sto rifugio sotto e l’aveva tutto coperto di rami che loro anco se scendevano dalla montagna i caccia non vedevano eh. Alla sera era sempre buio eh, alla sera mica accendevi luci eh.
GF: Tutto spento.
GB: Tutto spento, tutti zitti, tutti spenti. Era così.
GF: E come passivate il tempo in quei momenti?
GB: Come passivate? Noi ragazze, noi, io ero bambina ma le ragazze più grandi avevano voglia di giocare, di fare. Eh ma sai, c’era la paura dovevi stare zitte, con la paura stavi zitti, o morire, o stare zitti eh.
GF: E sapevate chi era che vi stava bombardando?
GB: Erano, erano tedeschi quelli, i tedeschi. Tedeschi che venivano, no? Perché sapevano che c’erano lì per, persone, tedeschi. E dopo sono arrivati i partigiani, no? I partigiani. Era il tedesco che colpiva il partigiano. Come anche in Lombardia, no? Scendevano dalle montagne quando era finita la guerra, tutti sti partigiani, tutti sti belli ragazzi. Questo me l’ho sentita raccontare perché io qui avevo un cognato, il fratello de Benito che era qui, e ha sposato una lombarda e lui si era innamorato di sta ragazza, tempo di guerra ma non potevano stare assieme. Cosa ha fatto? Lui è andato partigiano, è andato partigiano ai monti è andato, ma tanti l’hanno uccisi de sti partigiani. Dopo quando è venuto a casa che è tornato dai monti, l’ha sposata. Hai capito? Sì, sì, anche sta storia perché io del sessanta dopo sono venuta, sono sposata, sono venuta su in Lombardia, questi la. Io raccontavo la guerra di quella laggiù e loro questa. Loro più partigiani in Lombardia. Laggiù, giù da noi partigiani un po’ meno. Tanti tedeschi, tedeschi hanno fatto spazza pulita se non arrivavano gli americani, eh.
GF: E lei si ricorda quando sono arrivati gli americani?
GB: E quando sono arrivati i americani quando hanno detto, io non me la ricordo cosa avranno detto però che è finita la guerra tutti, tutti, un urlo de gioia, capito?
GF: Avete festeggiato?
GB: Eh, tutti contenti, contadini se sono radunati, hanno buttato via le bare, le baracche che avevano fatto [laughs], tutti no, perché qui c’è il contadino, qui c’è un altro, qui c’è un altro, eravamo tutta una zona di contadini, sì. E comunque c’è stato perché dopo noi avevamo su, l’altro paesino che sarà stato un chilometro e mezzo che non si poteva andare perché avevano bombardato il ponte e che non passavi per andare all’altro paese ch’avevamo la farmacia, avevamo tutto di là perché c’è poco. Loro facevano un’altra provincia noi un’altra però come, loro, il comune era di Cortona, noi eravamo di Lisciano Niccone, noi era il paese più piccolo però aveva il comune, ha il comune. Pensi che quello è un paese più grosso e non ha il comune, deve fare chilometri per andare al comune. E allora per quanto non si poteva andare né in farmacia, niente, non dovevano. Sai, era il ponte grande, c’era l’acqua per attraversare se non c’è il ponte dove traversi? Loro avevano messo qualcosa tra i due comuni quando è finita la guerra per podè passare da un paese all’altra. E niente, così.
GF: Quindi lei si ricorda questo ponte distrutto.
GB: Sì, sì, sì, distrutto, che non sapevano dove andare, per andare in farmacia, per andare tante cose di là c’erano, c’erano le banche che noi non avevamo le banche di qua perché le banche sono dalla parte de sto paesino qua, ancora oggi, per esempio mio fratello, eh, mio fratello che è morto, ha tutti i soldi da quelle banche lì e noi non riusciamo a prendere niente perché quella de Monte Paschi di Siena è lì, hai capito? E’ tutta, tutta na storia, na catena che noi non avevamo la banca di qua. Perché, per andare a Perugia la regione proprio, la, dovevi andare a quaranta chilmetri per andare a Perugia, Perugia, eravamo più dalla parte di Arezzo, eh, hai capito? Così.
GF: Quindi suo padre faceva fatica.
GB: E quand’è stata sì, il momento di guerra che ha durato un po’, no? Io adesso de preciso non te so dì quanto ha durato però ha durato un po’ per, c’aveva i anziani, nonni, c’aveva i genitori lui, noi nonni, che avevano bisogno delle medicine, hai capito? Un certo momento la nonna si è ammalata e non passavano, non podevano andare con le macchine perché allora non c’erano strade, le portavano con la, con li carrelli così, eh, era una vita proprio de medio evo, no? Sì, sì. Ecco, e così.
GF: Ma quando stavate nel rifugio lei si sentiva sicura?
GB: Nel rifugio sì perché era,
GF: Si sentiva sicura.
GB: Loro avevano scavato sti uomini e poi l’avevano tutta coperta de sta roba qui, eh sei sicura, solo se dovevano venire le mine come, n’ann buttate due, eh, che mi ricordo io, era difficile che le buttavano però due l’hann buttate proprio dalla fine della guerra, quelle due l’hann buttate e dopo quando hanno bombardato il ponte di là è stata, è stata, gli aerei da una parte l’altra l’hann buttate giù a più non posso eh quel ponte lì, sì. E niente comunque hanno spezzato, hanno spezzato i due comuni, eh, eh. E che te voglio dire?
GF: E avevate dei parenti che vivevano nell’altro comune, delle persone che conoscevate?
GB: Eh sì, certo che avevamo delle persone si [unclear], capirai, un chilometro te conosci tutte, le banche, la farmacia, se volevi andare a tagliare i capelli dovevi andare dalla parte di là che di qua non c’è, eh certo che conoscevi, eh, hai capito?
GF: Quindi è stato complicato.
GB: Molto, molto, molto, Io me la ricordo la paura ecco, quella grande paura che dovevi proprio stare zitta e stare più rifugiata che potevi perché quando vedevano che camminava una donna con bambino erano guai eh, erano guai. Noi non ci faceva scendere più da sta collinetta ci ha fatto sta capanna con terrata giù per terra perché ha scavato poi tutta chiusa, tanto per noi famigliari che per le bestie che poteva salvare perché aveva i vitelli, aveva maiali, aveva le, tutte ste bestie qui loro le caricavano eh. Avevano i cani (?), caricavano tutto loro eh. Tedeschi caricavano tutto. Quando avevano, vedevano una cantinina, no? Come per esempio giù, na finestrina che buttavano giù, entravano dentro perché sapevano che c’erano i prosciutti, c’erano i salami hai capito? Erano delinquenti proprio i tedeschi, eh.
GF: E cosa pensava di chi vi stava bombardando? Cosa pensavate?
GB: No, lo parlava il papà che erano tedeschi, eh. Tedeschi, sono tedeschi poi si, dialetto che avevano, fare kaputte, fare kaputte, dice: ‘State attenti ragazze se loro dicono fare kaputte, fare kaputte, v’ammazzano, eh, state zitti, qua ammazzano, eh’. E avevano, sì, si sapeva che erano tedeschi, certo. E papà lo diceva.
GF: E dopo la liberazione quindi avete festeggiato, siete potuti tornare a casa vostra.
GB: Sì, dopo, tutti contadini, tutti sono beh, dopo è venuta la trebbiatura del grano, con le macchine hanno fatto grande festa a tutti, eh sì. Sono arrivati americani che hann salvato tutto eh. Sì.
GF: E i rifugi quindi li avete abbandonati.
GB: E il rifugio, niente, è rimasto lì, abbandonato perché che vuoi ie fai tutto de legno, tutto de coto, il bosco era del nostro, eh è rimasto lì, e dopo a poco a poco si è ripreso la legna [laughs] hai capito?
GF: E quindi dopo che è finita la guerra lei ha incominciato ad andare a scuola.
GB: A scuola, sì, dopo si parlava, le maestre, io non me la ricordo cosa avrebbero detto però la guerra è stata parlata per parecchio tempo, eh. Che se ringraziavano americani come avrè visto il padre eterno,come nasce il bambino adesso perché se no non so. [phone rings] Adesso risponderà lui eh. Hai capito?
GF: E quindi il sentimento più grande che provavate era la paura. Tantissima paura.
GB: La paura, la paura di morire, la paura che buttassero qualche mina, qualche bomba che ci, la paura di morire, e noi si doveva stare sempre zitti. Si giocava a carte zitti zitti, eh, quelle robe lì facevi perché [unclear] come cadeva la sera era buio. E che? Più di dormire non facevi, che potevi fare? Da bambini.
GF: E si ricorda se pregavate per caso?
GB: Anche pregare sì, molto. Eh, la mia mamma ci faceva pregare, che finisse presto sta brutalità, lei poverina aveva avuto anche quella brutta avventura di essere, oè, se loro non erano addormentati non so cosa gli facevano eh. Venivano violentate, venivano. Perché quel momento lì non c’erano pullman, non c’erano niente. Lei aveva una parente che era all’ospedale, quaranta chilometri, loro andavano a piedi sti quaranta chilometri per andare a trovare sta parente che era operata dall’ulcera, dall’appendice, e, e niente, l’hann prese, camminavano sulla strada, l’hann prese, l’hann caricate intal camion, caricate tal camion, l’hanno portate dal loro rifugio perché loro avevano i rifugi, eh, i tedeschi, capito? Avevano preso le case proprio e loro dalla piena notte che dormivano, che erano briachi, perché loro s’ambriacavano eh, bevevano da matti, dove andavano che trovavano il vino erano briachi. Allora loro pian pian piano sono riusciti a uscire, hanno visto il lumino, na casettina c’era il lumino, sono andati a bussare da sta casetta, son venuti fuori due vecchietti, l’hann fatte entrare, poi dopo la mattina, l’hann raccontato così, alla mattina hann preso e son tornate a casa. Sì, non sono andate più neanche a trovare quella là in ospedale. E’ na cosa che lei l’ha vissuta sulla sua pelle, eh? Eh, lo diceva sempre: ‘State zitti, state zitti, che vi ammazzano’ eh, tutte ste parole.
GF: E voi non vi eravate accorti che erano state rapite?
GB: Eh no, perché erano partite per l’ospedale, dormivano da qualche parte là in ospedale e no, dopo quando è tornata, che è tornata il giorno dopo, ha detto che neanche era andata. Io, ricordato da lei eh sempre perché quel momento lì io on me la ricordo proprio. Ricorda lei che è stata una esperienza proprio bruttissima, sì, sì. [pauses] Eh, loro s’ambriacavano, portavano, briachi com’erano non gli hanno fatto niente dopo quando si svegliavano era il guaio ma loro pian pian piano sono uscite, sono riuscite a scappare che non avevano chiuso, hann visto sto lumino di notte, insomma, e bella che erano ancora al rifugio de loro, hai capito? Gli è andata bene, gli è andata benone, ha raccontato, diceva, io posso ringraziare proprio, signore perché m’è andata bene, mhm mhm mhm.
GF: E adesso che sono passati tanti anni, cosa pensa delle persone che vi bombardavano?
GB: Eh, un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, quando si parla della Germania, chi è che ha sofferto così non è tanta bella, eh, no. No, no. Un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, perché l’Italia l’hanno spacciata fuori quel momento lì eh, non so perché la volevano tanta con l’Italia. I vecchi lo sanno però, eh, i vecchi vecchi lo sanno perché c’era sta grande cosa per il Duce per che cosa, eh? Eh, per forza. Ma io non ti posso raccontare perché non la so questa la storia perché ce la volevano tante l’italiani, non la so. Hai capito? Così.
GB: E si ricorda se sono arrivati dei partigiani lì dove abitavate voi, si ricorda di averli visti?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, i partigiani sì, i partigiani erano dalla nostra parte eh, cavoli! Loro difendevano gli italiani, ste matti, i partigiani sì, eh. Ma pochi, pochi partigiani, più loro, più i tedeschi, e americani, dopo quando sono arrivati americani hanno pulito l’Italia proprio, mhm mhm.
GF: E lei li ha visti gli americani o non se la ricorda?
GB: Io non me lo ricordo sai, non me la ricordo, i tedeschi me la ricordo bene. I tedeschi me la ricordo bene perché passavano da quelle, loro avevano giù le taverne, le cantine, no, quelle robe, loro li facevano vedere, io non c’ho niente, non c’ho niente, ma loro da fuori vedevano io ti sparo, apri per andare giù perché [unclear] mio papà quante volte gliel’hann puntato il fucile, io ti sparo, giù cosa c’hai? Quello che [unclear] gli portavano via tutto, eh.
GF: Volevano il cibo.
GB: Eh il cibo volevano, prosciutto, vino, salami, polli se avevi polli, tutto, tutto, vitelli, maiali, tutto caricavano perché c’erano quelli che andavano per le case e c’era quello coi cani, no? Caricavano tutto, tutto caricavano.
GF: E voi avevate degli animali anche?
GB: E anche gli animali perché lui, maiali, tutte delle robe più, anche i vitelli giovani che allora costavano. Gli aveva fatto la capanna al bosco eh, perché gli caricano un vitello, gli caricano tutta la loro interesse de un anno eh, hai capito? E così, comunque l’hanno vissuta male sti vecchietti poeretti, mhm mhm.
GF: Facevate fatica a trovare da mangiare in quel periodo?
GB: E da c’era anche la tessera, davano la tessera, capisci? C’era la tessera e coi tanti figli c’era [unclear] io adesso non ti so spiegare questo, c’era la tessera, tanta roba, anche il sale era con la tessera e il latte avevano le capre tutto il più se mangiava ste bestie che erano in casa, le custodiva, ammazzavano anche i maiali eh? Perché che mangiavi? [laughs] In mancanza de altro mazzavano quello che avevano lì. Al posto de farlo portar via dai tedeschi. Eh sì.
GF: E, prima parlavamo del ponte. Il ponte poi dopo la guerra l’hanno ricostruito?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, sì. Sì, io l’ho visto costruito bene, sì, sì, sì. Sì, i due, i due comuni si sono messi d’accordo, l’hann fatto il ponte, sì. No, no, hann fatto tutto come era prima, sì.
GF: E la sua famiglia dopo la guerra ha ricominciato a fare i contadini.
GB: Fare i contadini, a fare il tabacco, che allora facevano il tabacco, facevano il grano, allora fare i contadini e mio fratello fino a che poteva ha giù na campagna che noi se riuscisse, perché lui non ha figli, è tutta in mano nostra. Si deve pagare l’ICI, si deve pagare per la terra, ha là na campagna che vale, vale soldi, molti soldi vale, e lui l’ha lavorata tanta, c’ha preso miliardi col tabacco che allora facevano il tabacco, funzionava l’agricoltura del tabacco, poi il grano, granturco, tutto il frumentone no? Eh, hanno fatto soldi, hanno una casa che è una villa lui, na villa, de tre piani, na villa, con tutta, tutta fatta grande, tutta recintata, e l’ha chiusa, pensa, e l’ha chiusa. Non sappiamo da chi darla, non sappiamo perché di case ce ne son tante abbandonate perché dopo è venuta la crisi, eh, come è stato, come non è stato, il nonno è corso dove c’era il lavoro, no? E allora, ste case sono abbandonate si può dire.
GF: E oltre ai tedeschi, si ricorda anche se vedevate dei fascisti?
GB: Io non me la ricordo questi, no, no, non me la ricordo. Da quei paesini lì non me la ricordo ma può darsi a Roma, e quelle robe lì c’erano sì i fascisti, c’erano sì, c’erano sì. Ma io non me la ricordo che parlavano di fascisti.
GF: Bene. Io la ringrazio tantissimo per la sua testimonianza bellissima.
GB: Ma che me ringrazi? Che t’ho detto quello che ho potuto.
GF: Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro?
GB: Che devo andà aggiungere? Che io sò, aggiungere, che io son partita da Lisciano Niccone il 31 gennaio del , no del duemila, 1960.
GF: E si è trasferita?
GB: E sono venuta in Lombardia. E mi sono formata la mia famiglia in Lombardia, con un figlio medico e tre nipoti [laughs]. Adesso questo l’ha registrato [laughs]?
GF: Grazie mille.
GB: [laughs] Ecco basta.
GF: Adesso stoppo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Giuliana Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
Giuliana Birelli remembers growing up in a family of farmers in Tuscany, at a juncture in which German soldiers raided houses searching for food and harassing women. She tells various episodes: partisans actions, time spent in a makeshift shelter her father had built in a nearby wood, the fear of being hit, bombs dropped in a field during the harvest and the arrival of American soldiers. Recalls how her mother and a friend were captured by drunken German soldiers and how they managed to escape. She recollects farmers cheering at the end of the war.
Creator
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Greta Fedele
Date
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2017-12-23
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:28:17 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ABirelliG171223
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Arezzo
Italy--Perugia
Italy
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/PPirovanoG1701.1.jpg
f08cd474f8b3abb5a6bba59fc5a0eb22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/APirovanoG171113.2.mp3
44fd6d3723b29056871c2fb2c80da476
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pirovano, Giuseppe
G Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-11-13
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Pirovano, G
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ZG: Prova? Funziona? Sì. Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistato è Giuseppe Pirovano. Nella stanza è presente, in qualità dell’assistente di Zeno, Simone Biffi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervista ha luogo in Via Gian Rinaldo Carli al numero 34 a Milano il giorno 12 Novembre 2017. Ok, possiamo iniziare. Allora inizio con delle domande di riscaldamento. Qual è il ricordo più lontano che ha, più remoto di tutti?
GP: Diciamo, ma qualche ricordo già prima della guerra. Quindi io sono del ’31 per cui ho dei ricordi verso gli anni ’39-’40. Quegli anni lì ricordo benissimo. L’aspetto che mi è rimasto in testa è la situazione qui di Affori ma sicuramente rispecchia la situazione generale dove il Fascismo teneva in iscacco se possiamo dire, la popolazione. Esempio. Allora c’eran solo le osterie e mio padre andava all’osteria qualche volta, non sempre. Era anche lui uno che gli piaceva bere il solito bicchiere di vino coi compagni, con gli amici, e ogni tanto mi portava, anzi ero io che gli correvo dietro, avevo otto, nove anni quindi, dieci anni. E mi ricordo la situazione, mi è rimasto impresso alcune cose. Per esempio, mi ricordo che sulle pareti dell’osteria dove c’era il, dove si batteva, dove batteva la spalla della sedia c’eran tutte le parole d’ordine: ‘Qui non si parla di politica’, ‘Viva il Duce’ e tutte queste parole d’ordine che potete immaginare quali erano. Ma questo è il meno. Ricordo benissimo che c’erano due, due esseri, due signori che giravano il rione vestiti proprio con la tuta da fascista, camicia nera, pantaloni, in bicicletta, sempre loro due, uno si chiamava Marinverni, l’altro Cavallini, e con la pistola sempre addosso. Facevano il giro delle osterie e ogni, alzavano la voce, la gente stava in silenzio, loro facevano il cosidetto bauscia, disevano a Milan, e quindi in alcuni casi hanno provato anche a sparare in alto, tanto per intimorire la gente. Questi erano proprio i manovali, me li ricordo bene, mi sono rimasti in mente anche i nomi. Poi naturalmente c’erano quelli vestiti bene, quelli che erano alla sede del Fascio qui ad Affori e che loro si facevano solo vedere nei luoghi delle parate quando c’era qualche manifestazione nel rione. Ecco questo, sono i ricordi più lontani, di prima della guerra.
ZG: Ma lei si ricorda perché questa camicie nere intimorivano? Quali erano le motivazioni? C’erano delle cause scatenanti?
GP: Non saprei dire la motivazione. Sicuramente evitavano, volevano evitare, diciamo, che qualcuno si comportasse da antifascista, questo per loro era una cosa che non poteva esistere, per cui controllavano, vedevano se c’era qualcuno di questo tipo. Naturalmente c’erano, ma però non posso dire che alloro lo sapevo, li avevo conosciuti nel, nel dopoguerra chiaramente, negli anni ’45-’46, c’erano gli antifascisti e c’erano ma non si muovevano, non si. Qualcuno di questi venivano anche portati in prigione quando c’era le visite dei gerarchi fascisti, di Mussolini in particolare qualche volta che era arrivato a Milano, però loro non li conoscevo, ma penso che lo scopo principale era quello di tenere sotto controllo la situazione insomma.
ZG: Senta, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
GP: Mio padre era un operaio, lavorava alla Ceretti e Tanfani, una ditta molto importante. Era una ditta ausiliaria si diceva allora, cioè ausiliaria nel senso che producevano cose che servivano per la guerra e quindi. Non le armi ma le strutture sono le gru, gli impianti funiviari, gli impianti che potevano servire per l’esercito, quindi lavorava in uno di quei. Mia madre era casalinga. Eravamo tre fratelli, due fratelli e una sorella.
ZG: Si ricorda un po’ della vita prima della guerra, in famiglia, a casa?
GP: Mah, prima della guerra ricordo che mio padre lavorava dieci ore al giorno e comunque, riusciva comunque a mantenere la famiglia ecco. Mia madre non ha mai lavorato da sposata e non saprei dire precisamente perché. L’età era poca e quindi eravamo, non eravamo in grado di capire per bene le cose. Però posso dire che riuscivamo a vivere, naturalmente con sacrifici perché il mangiare era quello che era, non è che eravamo. E ricordo in particolare che i giorni di Natale, mentre alcuni bambini avevano la fortuna di avere una famiglia un po’ benestante, meglio di noi, noi non avevamo niente insomma, c’erano i soliti pacchetto di mandarino con la noce con quelle poche cose di frutta. Ecco, quello che ricordo è un po’ questo. Facevamo fatica, vivevamo con fatica, ma vivevamo.
ZG: Lei e i suoi fratelli giocavate?
GP: Sì, sì, giocavamo, giocavamo. Mi ricordo che io ero il maggiore facevo, costruivo i monopattini, andavo da, c’era uno stracciaio vicino a casa dove abitavamo, noi abitavamo qui in, qui vicino insomma, un centinaio di metri. E andavo a comperare, ce li regalava praticamente, soldi noi non ne avevamo, le ruote a sfere che raccogliendo i rottami che questo signore c’era dentro anche queste cose qui, noi lo sapevamo e andavamo là e facevo il carrello, il carrellotto con il legno, la, col manubrio, bulloni per fare da perno, la ruota a sfera più grossa che riuscivamo a trovare e facevamo il carrellotto che ci spingevamo in giro oppure il monopattino, con due ruote a scorta. Per dire uno dei giochi, poi giochevamo tante altre cose siam bambini, giocavamo, giocavamo, questo.
ZG: Ehm, lei si ricorda qualche altro gioco in particolare?
GP: Giocavamo, ci allora, ci mettevamo carponi uno dietro l’altro e saltavamo sulla schiena. Chi saltava più, due persone, tre persone. Giocavamo alla, noi lo chiamavamo il Pirlo, pezzo di legno così che mettevamo per terra, picchiavamo sulla punta e il legno andava lontano, quindi chi andava più lontano vinceva. E così insomma questi più o meno erano i giochi che facevamo.
ZG: Senta, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
GP: Sì. Scoppiata la guerra, mi ricordo vagamente del discorso di Mussolini, stranamente. Però stranamente era, tutte le radio parlavano di questo. E mi ricordo vagamente, vagamente col senno di poi, l’ho sentito attraverso i tele, i giornali eccetera ma allora ricordo vagamente per dire la verità. Non è che potessi capire il significato, perché insomma io avevo, nel ’40, 10 giugno del ’40 avevo nove anni, capite che un ragazzo non, però ricordo ma poi. Diciamo quello che posso dire è come ho vissuto io la guerra, ecco questo.
ZG: Ecco sì, voglio fare giusto una domanda prima che era, gli adulti gli parlarono della guerra? I suoi genitori o famigliari a lei vicini, amici dei genitori?
GP: Beh, mio padre un po’, mio padre, mio padre parlava un po’ qualche volta però non si sbottonava. Mio padre non era un politico ma era un antifascista, questo sicuramente, questo, lo posso testimoniare. Politico no perché poi anche lui era un operaio nel senso che non aveva, scuole, sì, fatto le elementari ma non aveva cultura politica. Ma era un antifascista e ogni tanto qualche cosa me lo [sic] diceva. Era un tipo che ogni tanto mi ricordo che prendeva in giro qualche fascista della prima ora, con dell’ironia non con della, diciamo discussioni politiche, si guardava bene perché non avrebbe potuto. Però mi ricordo che c’era uno che aveva fatto la Marcia su Roma, abitava vicino a noi e mai poi era un uomo anziano, non è che fosse, non era un uomo cattivo ma era un fascista. Mi ricordo, eravamo forse nel ’41 quando, quando venivamo, eravamo in Africa ed eravamo sconfitti e allora mi ricordo precisamente, una volta visto fuori in strada e gli diceva: ‘Ohè, Scaiett’, si chiamava Scaietti, ‘Scaiett, andem ben, eh!’. Faceva così, il segno della vanga. Vangava per dire che andavamo indietro. Lo prendeva in giro, per dire. Era comunque un tipo abbastanza, le conosceva le cose, e qualche volta si azzardava anche con gli amici a parlare, ma molto, molto poco, non è che era un antifascista combattente, no, non lo era. E naturalmente poi ho saputo che in fabbrica c’era l’organizzazione clandestina ma questo l’ho saputo dopo e quindi.
ZG: Dopo torneremo anche su questo. Quindi lei non si ricorda nulla in particolare proprio di come suo padre invece parlava a lei della guerra e del fascismo?
GP: No, ma, no, soltanto qualche volta, quello che succedeva, lo diceva in casa ecco. Ma no, devo dire di no. Per dire la verità.
ZG: Eh per caso avevate parenti al fronte?
GP: Al fronte c’erano i miei cugini, i miei cugini sì. Figli della sorella di mio padre e sono, due son tornati tutti e due, sì e altri cugini, altri cugini non me ne ricordo, che erano al fronte.
ZG: Ok. Senta invece, si ricorda dei bombardamenti?
GP: Eh beh certo. Eh lì vorrei parlare un po’. Allora partiamo dal primo bombardamento avvenuto a Milano il 24 Ottobre del ’42, primo bombardamento a Milano. Premetto che a Milano era già stato fatto un bombardamento nel ’40 appena scoppiata la guerra, me lo ricordo bene perché mio padre con la bicicletta, noi abitavamo ad Affori, abitiamo tutt’ora ad Affori, siamo andati a vedere i bombardamenti, per dire incoscienti e incapaci di giudicare, penso che era normale. Allora con la bicicletta, io con la mia bicicletta, mio fratello con la sua biciclettina siamo andati in Via Thaon di Revel, sapete dov’è? Piazzale Maciachini, avanti, lì c’è la Chiesa della Fontana. Il bombardamento è avvenuto con qualche bomba incendiaria che ha toccato la chiesa e la casa di fronte. Siamo andati subito quando l’abbiamo saputo, mio padre c’ha portato, e abbiamo visto di cosa si trattava. Proprio due spezzoni erano apparecchi, erano i francesi, perché noi abbiamo dichiarato guerra ai francesi e quindi quelli si sono vendicati subito ma ridicolmente insomma. Era un bombardamento ridicolo eh. Incendiarie hanno rotto una soffitta, un pezzo di, vabbè, comunque, questo è [unclear], però non è più stato fatto nessun bombardamento. Il primo a Milano è avvenuto il 24 Ottobre ’42. Io ero in quel momento nel cortile di casa mia, in una stanzetta del cortile con cinque, sei amici ragazzi, sentiamo sto casino, sto bombard, sto rumore, sparare e il rumore degli aerei. Usciamo e siamo rimasti lì, era le cinque della sera, quindi iniziava il tramonto. Si vedevano tutti i traccianti della antiaerea, qui nella, c’era l’antiaerea piazzata, là nella Cava Lucchini, vicino proprio a noi, le mitragliatrici e si vedevano gli apparecchi che passavano, che urlavano, erano gli aerei, apparecchi inglesi naturalmente perché i primi bombardamenti sono stati fatti dagli inglesi ’42-’43. Gli americani non c’erano ancora e quindi, vedevamo chiaramente mollare le bombe, magari appena dopo perché appena dopo magari alla Bovisa sugli scali ferroviari eccetera nei dintorni. Noi ad Affori non siamo stati colpiti. E quindi questo è stato il primo bombardamento che ho visto coi miei occhi gli apparecchi che mollavano le bombe. Ricordo il rumore degli apparecchi che poi dopo li ho risentiti in qualche documentario ma li ricordo bene. Allora il giorno seguente, uno o due giorni, mio padre ha caricato la famiglia, ci ha portati fuori Milano, sfollati diciamo, eravamo i primi sfollati, perché poi Milano ha avuto molti sfollati proprio a causa dei bombardamenti. Allora il discorso è questo, noi con la famiglia eravamo sfollati in provincia di Brescia, in campagna, e lui lavorava tutti i giorni da solo a casa, ecco. Veniva tutte le domeniche, quasi tutti i sabati e la domenica a trovarci, prendeva il treno, veniva a trovarci. Però era il ’42, la guerra è finita nel ’45, e io saltuariamente venivo a casa con lui, ’43, ’44 quindi in permanenza non ero a Milano però venivo a casa con lui ogni tanto. E quando ero a casa non sono riuscito a dormire una notte perché c’eran sempre i bombardamenti, c’eran sempre gli allarmi. Su casa nostra non abbiamo avuto i bombardamenti ma le case circostanti, i rioni, Milano insomma è stata distrutta, lo sapete meglio di me. Quindi io ho vissuto nei rifugi qualche, alla notte ed era un dramma veramente: il terrore, la paura. Chi andava nei rifugi era, in genere le donne, ma tutti insomma, mio padre nei rifugi non c’è mai andato perché lui diceva: ‘Mi la fin del rat la fu no!’, la fine del topo non la voglio fare. E allora, quando io ero qui qualche volta mi è capitato di andare nei rifugi perché se era di giorno, o comunque un orario che mio padre era a lavorare e io ero solo, e quindi andavo nei rifugi non potevo, ma quando c’era mio padre lui mi prendeva come al primo allarme mi metteva sulla canna della bicicletta e correvamo fuori perché qui ad Affori adesso è costruito molto ma allora era campagna perché era l’ultimo rione della città e quindi avevamo molta campagna e mi portava nei fossi, nella campagna per evitare i bombardamenti. Ma diciamo che ho vissuto i bombardamenti nei rifugi quando venivano qui. E mio padre, dicevo, veniva ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni settimana, al massimo ogni quindici giorni veniva a trovarci. Il giorno del 10 settembre ’44 era un giorno che tornava a Milano della visita che aveva fatto a noi e quando tornava a Milano il treno arrivava generalmente dopo le dieci di sera, c’era il coprifuoco alle dieci di sera, quindi cosa succedeva? Lui dormiva alla stazione centrale, al mattino alle sei prendeva la bicicletta e andava a Bovisa a lavorare, Bovisa è qui vicino. La sera del 10 settembre il treno è, è arrivato in orario, ha fatto in tempo a prendere la bicicletta e andare a casa. È andato a casa, diciamo è salito in casa per disfare la valigia, le bombe cadevano. Nel cortile distrutta la casa. Cosa succedeva? Le bombe cadevano e quindi lui è sceso perché non poteva stare lì perché andavano giù, sentiva le case che andavano giù e anche la nostra dove abitavamo cominciava a crollare. Allora molta gente nel, che scendeva nel cortile perché era un gruppo di case, allora molta gente andava nel rifugio ma il rifugio era la solita cantina che costruivano dove si metteva il vino, si metteva, quindi non era un rifugio, era una cantina. E quindi mio padre faceva la parte delle persone che scappavano, oltretutto non era in grado di contenere tutte le persone, molta gente scappava. Mio padre è scappato con un gruppo di dieci persone. Fatto venti metri, è arrivato a un bivio, scappavano, cercavano di andare in un rifugio più sicuro, loro pensavano. Ha fatto venti metri, erano un gruppo di dodici persone, tredici persone, una bomba è caduta nel centro. Quindi strage completa. Mio padre è rimasto sotto i bombardamenti in quell’occasione lì. E, scusate,
ZG: Se vuole interrompiamo.
GP: [starts crying] cosa succede, c’erano i miei amici, un ragazzo col collo tagliato, mio padre combinazione non aveva niente ma lo spostamento d’aria gli ha spaccato il cuore. E però una parte di persone si è fermato nell’androne, nell’androne della casa si sono salvati, in cantina si sono salvati e quelli che sono usciti sono morti tutti. Tenete conto che la mia casa, la casa dove abitavo, era ai, dietro la chiesa, in linea d’aria trenta, quaranta metri, perché proprio era sull’angolo del giardino del parroco. A sinistra c’era la scuola elementare dove io ho frequentato la prima, la seconda e la terza. Alla mia destra, quella via, c’era l’asilo infantile con cinque suore. Ebbene, hanno distrutto l’asilo, distrutto la scuola, distrutta metà la casa dove abitavo. Hanno danneggiato la chiesa, per dire quel gruppo di queste case. Poi più avanti hanno distrutto dei caseggiati completi, la Cur di Restei, la chiamavamo e tante altre cose lì in giro ma poi anche tanti altri. Quindi questo è il 10 settembre ’44. Mio padre è morto e noi siamo rimasti là in campagna dove mia madre è stata assunta, in combinazione c’era una ditta di tabacchi, raccoglievano il tabacco, lavoravano il tabacco, mia madre è stata assunta lì e siamo riusciti per tirare avanti con lo stipendio di mia madre. Quindi siamo stati lì fin dopo, fino il ’45 e mi ricordo l’ultimo episodio che voglio dire. Il 25 aprile del ’45, ero ancora lì naturalmente, e io seguivo un po’ gli ultimi avvenimenti, ormai avevo quattordici anni capivo un po’ di più insomma. E son corso sul, sono andato sulla strada principale Asola-Brescia perché in quei momenti lì i tedeschi cominciavano a scappare. Ora sono corso là con i miei amici grandi, giovanotti che ricordo si preparavano già qualche giorno prima, armeggiare, trovavano qualche arma, qualche cosa del genere. Sono andato lì per trovarli, insomma io volevo esserci. Sono arrivato là, non ho trovato nessuno in quel momento lì al mattino presto. Però mi sono trovato di fronte un gruppo di tedeschi, quindici, circa quindici tedeschi, potevano essere quattordici o sedici, ma era più o meno un gruppo così, un gruppo di tedeschi in bicicletta armati di tutto punto, bombe a mano e mitra, in bicicletta con sacche pesanti. E ormai ero lì, non sapevo più cosa fare e ho detto: ‘Ma sono un ragazzo, forse non mi dicono niente’. Invece il capo lì: ‘Komma her, komma her’, mi ha messo in mezzo per attraversare il paese. L’intenzione era quella naturalmente di avere l’ostaggio in centro in modo che, avevano paura dei partigiani per cui se c’era qualcuno e attraversiam, per attarversare il paese. Naturalmente io il paese lo conoscevo come le mie tasche, e poi avevo quattordici anni quindi, e intanto che andavamo non so se per incoscienza o non sentivo paura, non è che avessi paura, stavo pensando come facevo a scappare. E infatti prima di uscire dal paese conoscevo bene come fare avevo visto, avevo pensato e quindi con un salto sono uscito dai ranghi. Immaginatevi questa gente qui, stanca, affamata, carica come era, non mi ha neanche visto insomma. Sono scappato e quelli se ne sono andati. Sono stati fermati dai partigiani in paese dopo. Io sono tornato là e ho trovato finalmente i ragazzi che si sono messi là, mi hanno messo assieme a uno con la mitragliatrice, io dovevo metterci su le cartuccie, le scatole e comunque eravamo lì a fermare i tedeschi. Diciamo che la giornata è passata così. Lì fermavano i tedeschi, li mettevano nella scuola poi dopo sarebbero stati mandati non lo so e, eh glielo ripeto ero là. E se venivano le macchine era più pericoloso dicevano se veniva qualche macchina. Allora c’era un incrocio rispetto alla provinciale, veniva una macchina dalla provincia di, era da Castel Goffredo provincia di Mantova, e io ero su quella strada lì dietro l’angolo con questo qui. Sento la macchina, sentiamo la macchina, guardo e tra le fronde della siepe avanti centocinquanta metri vedo un elmetto che non è tedesco quello non è un tedesco, non sono tedeschi allora metto la mano sulla mitragliatrice prima che quello mi, [unclear] tedesco, e arriva la camionetta degli americani. Era il primo americano che vedevo e così abbiamo visto sta camionetta, è arrivato lì, ha fatto quattro chiacchiere, sai quei classici, quattro persone, due di dietro sdraiati con le, che poi s’è visto nei giornali che c’hanno fatto vedere ma li era, mi ricordo classico, quattro parole che noi non capivamo niente e con la cicca americana e se ne sono andati subito. Ecco, questa è la mia giornata del 25 aprile ‘45. E poi naturalmente c’è tutta una storia del dopoguerra molto importante ma che non c’entra con.
ZG: Senta, io le volevo fare qualche domanda per tornare un attimo su qualche passaggio. La prima era, nel ’42 lei ha detto che c’è stato il bombardamento, quello degli inglesi.
GP: Sì.
ZG: Il primo che ha assistito. Ha detto che aveva sentito le bombe ma non ha parlato della sirena antiaerea. In quell’occasione lì, era suonato o non era suonato?
GP: No, assolutamente no. Le ripeto, noi siamo usciti perché abbiamo sentito rumore ma il, l’allarme aereo non era suonato. Nel modo più assoluto. Poi, voglio dire, l’allarme aereo raramente suonava. Non c’era, non c’era organizzazione. Gli unici un po’ organizzati erano la cosidetta UNPA, erano dei civili incaricati in ogni caseggiato per essere, diciamo era come un, come si dice, quelli che abbiamo adesso, la protezione civile ecco, faceva un po’ di queste cose qui. Allora c’era quello del caseggiato più anziano, più bravo, faceva questo lavoro qui. Tutta roba diciamo, organizzata e no, insomma. Allora se c’era qualcuno di buona volontà, se sentiva l’aereo, suonava, perché c’era la tromba, la sirena che faceva a mano, faceva andare a mano. Ma raramente suonava prima dei bombardamenti. Sì, il primo bombardamento assolutamente non suonava. Poi in seguito, mi dicevano i miei amici, perché ci sono quelli che erano qui tutti i giorni, qualche volta suonava ma di rado. In genere arrivavano gli apparecchi e bombardavano. Mio padre, quella volta lì lo stesso, arrivato gli apparecchi, bombardavano e son scappati, ma. Allarme niente, non c’era organizzazione!
ZG: Il rifugio in cui lei scappava di solito, era la cantina di casa sua?
GP: Sì, sono andato anche in altri rifugi. Per esempio, c’era un rifugio fatto, sempre qui, in un posto dove c’era un prato fra le case, era un rifugio che avevano fatto, scavato due metri, se dico due metri potevano essere due e cinquanta, forse anche tre, non lo so, no si passava appena appena, due metri, coperto da tavole, dico tavole. Sopra le tavole la terra che avevano scavato l’han messa su sopra, quindi rifugio per modo di dire. Andava bene se c’era qualche scheggia in giro perché bombardavano ma era una cosa inutile, assolutamente, non era rifugio. E per il resto erano cantine. Non c’erano rifugi, in zona parlo eh, perché poi in altri posti avevano fatto anche dei rifugi. Ma a Affori assolutamente non ce n’erano.
ZG: Come passava il tempo nel rifugio, se lo ricorda?
GP: Seduti, c’erano le donnine che pregavano, c’erano i bambini che piangevano, e io mi ricordo che, ero pieno di paura e quando ero in rifugio, ero solo naturalmente, mio padre non c’era. Ero, tremavo e pieno di paura, poi sa in quell’ambiente lì, donne che gridano, che urlano, i bambini che urlano, e così, è una tragedia insomma. Non era una cosa molto bella.
ZG: Senta, oltre alle preghiere, ogni tanto magari avevate altri metodi per passare il tempo, tipo qualcuno cantava magari o?
GP: No, no, no, io non ricordo. Beh la preghiera dico perché qualcuna che c’era, che faceva la preghiera, non è che, che fosse collettivo il fatto. Qualcuna si metteva a pregare, le donne anziane, me lo ricordo ma, no, anche perché nel rifugio non è che ci stavamo tanto. Cioè i bombardamenti potevano durare mezz’ora, l’allarme diciamo poteva durare mezz’ora, al massimo un’ora ma generalmente finiva molto prima insomma ecco. Che gli apparecchi non potevano star su le ore, bombardavano e se ne andavano. Magari si ripeteva ma non molto a lungo. Nei rifugi stavamo poco tempo, mezz’ora.
ZG: E senta invece dov’è che è sfollato, quando suo padre l’ha portato via?
GP: Sul confine fra Brescia e Mantova, in campagna, se posso [unclear] anche il paese Acquafredda si chiama, Acquafredda, c’è ancora eh!
ZG: E come mai vi ha portato là esattamente?
GP: Perché c’erano i genitori di mia madre, con un fratello di mia madre. E quindi abitavamo tutti assieme nella casa dove abitavano questi. Il, loro non erano contadini, mio nonno era una falegname e mio zio faceva l’operatore delle macchine, le trebbiatrici, le macchine che usavano per la terra, le aggiustava, le, insomma faceva quel lavoro lì.
ZG: E da quelle parti bombardamenti non ce ne sono mai stati?
GP: No, assolutamente, in campagna no, abbiamo vissuto bene.
ZG: Perché ogni tanto tornava a Milano con suo padre?
GP: Eh, perché ogni tanto, io, papà, vengo anche io a Milano oppure era lui ma non è che son tornato, forse due o tre volte a, tre volte a Milano. Però, ragazzi! Erano tragedie tutte le volte. Era una tragedia perché era sempre in giro. Mi son trovato in quel rifugio lì che le dicevo, mi son trovato scalzo. Quindi era, ’43 forse, o primavera ’44, insomma era terrore, scappavamo, eran momenti brutti insomma, non, una cosa che, da non augurarsi guardi.
ZG: Senta invece, un’altra cosa che volevo chiedere era, con la scuola, lei quando ha sfollato per la prima volta, stava già frequentando la scuola media?
GP: No, allora, io ho frequentato la scuola che hanno abbattuto lì quando hanno bombardato mio padre, è morto mio padre, ho fatto prima, seconda e terza, la quarta sono andato a farla nelle scuole nuove, sempre qui ad Affori. Allora la quarta, io sono stato bocciato, sono stato bocciato perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione. La mia maestra, maestra Giacchero, era una fascista di quelle terribili, clerico-fascista, e io non ho risposto a domande di religione perché avevo fatto, avevo tranciato i miei rapporti con la chiesa quando mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto. Mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto, parliamo forse nove, dieci anni, allora c’erano chierichetti così piccoli e mi ricordo che a un battesimo un signore ha tirato fuori i soldi, ha dato i soldi al prete, ha detto: ‘Questi qui sono i suoi, questi qui sono per il batte, e questi qui per i chierichetti’. Il prete ha messo in tasca i soldi e non ha dato niente, né a me né a nessun altro, ha tenuto tutti i soldi dei chierichetti. Da quel giorno lì, per me, sono andato a casa ho detto: ‘Mamma, io in chiesa non ci vado più’, ‘Perché?’ ‘Perché mi ha rubato i soldi’ mi ricordo. [unclear] ‘Ma no, ma’, basta, e io ho chiuso. Quindi per me la chiesa non esiste, non esiste da quel giorno là insomma. Poi tutto va bene, tutto [unclear], per me non è un problema, è un problema [unclear], ma. Quindi sono stato bocciato in quarta, ho rifatto la quarta qui e [mobile phone rings] scusatemi.
ZG: Interrompo, non si preoccupi.
PG: Sì?
ZG: Allora, dopo la pausa riprendiamo l’intervista.
PG: Ecco, ehm, quindi ho rifatto la quarta. Il mio maestro era un centurione, un ex-centurione della milizia. Allora e io ero il caposquadra per dire che sono stato bocciato non perché ero un asino, anche se non ero una gran scienza per dire ma io sapevo le mie cose.Sono bocciato proprio perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione e il mio maestro dopo qualche giorno mi ha fatto caposquadra. Era un centurione della milizia e lui voleva avere una squadra organizzatissima. Aveva fatto sette persone, sette ragazzi capisquadra, io ero caposquadra ma ne aveva fatte altri sei che ognuno aveva dato un compito ma soprattutto in palestra ci portava. Eravamo organizzati in un modo eccellente. Io avevo la mia squadra che comandavo a bacchetta: ‘Avanti marsch, destra, sinist, obliqua sinist’. Ero bravo, era il maestro che mi aveva insegnato. E quell’anno lì, doveva essere il ’41 o il ’42, ’41 sicuro o fine ’40, poi facciamo i conti e magari, sì ’42, ’41, ’42 sono andato via, e abbiamo fatto un raduno, hanno fatto un raduno all’arena di Milano di quattrocento classi elementari, la quarta e la quinta, per fare gli esercizi ginnici. Far vedere che erano i giovani, i Balilla che, come eran bravi i Balilla eccetera. E io ho portato la mia classe, siamo stati bravi, eravamo sicuramente fra i primi perché i nostri ci tenevano. Poi per c’han fatto uscire dall’arena. Uscendo dall’arena c’erano dei tavoloni, son stati cinque o sei tavoloni, non lo so perché eravamo in tanti. Ogni tavolone c’era un gerarca dietro lì, un fascistone e io ero il caposquadra, dovevo andare a rispondere, a rispondere alle domande che queste persone mi facevano. Sono arrivato là con la mia squadra: ’Avanti marsch, destra, sinistra, tac!’ ‘Senti’, mi dice, ‘chi ha dichiarato guerra? L’Italia all’Inghilterra o l’Inghilterra alla Germania?’. Sono rimasto un po’. Non lo sapevo, non lo sapevo anche se, che magari era stato detto però non quel momento, non lo sapevo. Però pensavo ragazzi la guerra è una cosa brutta, non siamo noi italiani che la vogliamo, nella mia mente, e ho detto, no è stata l’Inghilterra. ‘Bravo asino! Vai via con la tua classe!’. Questo per dire [laughs] come eravamo in quei tempi là. E poi naturalmente io ho passato la quarta, sono andato in quinta, nel ’42 già avevo perso un anno, nel ’42 a settembre, a ottobre siamo scappati. Perciò ho ripreso la quinta là in campagna, ho fatto la quinta là. Dopodiché là non c’erano più le scuole. Per fare la, per andare a scuola bisognava fare tredici chilometri fino a, un paese importante, paese grosso, ma allora come facevo? In casa c’era una sola bicicletta, a parte il fatto che fare tredici chilometri in bicicletta, col Pippo che ogni tanto sparava addirittura sui cavalli e carretti che c’erano sulla strada, hai mai sentito, avete sentito parlare del Pippo? Ma poi c’era una bicicletta, l’usava mio zio per andare a lavorare. Quindi io, finita la quarta, la quinta elementare, non ho più fatto la scuola. Anzi, devo dire che, allora per andare alle scuole medie bisognava fare, come si, gli esami di stato. E sono riuscito a fare gli esami di stato con la mia maestra - che voleva che li facessi - e con altre sei ragazze, la figlia del sindaco, del podestà, allora del podestà, la figlia del suo secondo era il caseario, aveva il caseificio, la figlia del fabbro e altre tre ragazze dei tre più grossi fittavoli del paese. Allora io ero quello che aveva, che mi vestivo con i pantaloni neri di tela stracciati con le pezze sul sedere e loro erano le figlie, erano le sei ragazze dei ricchi del paese. Allora sono riuscito ad andare, a fare gli esami di stato in quel paese e, non mi viene in mente va bene il paese, con cavallo e carrozza, cavallo e la carrozza con queste ragazze. Siamo, eravamo bene istruiti, siam passati tutti e però io non ho più potuto far scuola. Questo è quanto, questa è la mia scuola che ho fatto. Naturalmente poi ho avuto nel dopoguerra la fortuna di fare altro tipo di scuola e via ma così, scuola era questa, la mia scuola.
ZG: Senta, a proposito della maestra che diceva, quella qua a Milano. Allora innanzitutto prima un’altra domanda: la chiesa in cui lei faceva il chierichetto, è quella che poi è stata bombardata?
GP: Sì. La chiesa qui ad Affori è stata danneggiata, diciamo la parte posteriore sì.
ZG: E invece diceva che la sua maestra delle elementari qua a Milano era terribile. Mi sa spiegare il perché? Si ricorda qualche episodio?
GP: No, era semplicemente cattiva. Quando io le dico che era una fascista ed era fascio-clericale perché, metta assieme queste due cose, si può immaginare che cosa ne viene fuori. Io poi nel dopoguerra mi ricordo che, mi ricordo, c’era un amico che abitava qui anche lui che ha, con questa maestra che la conoscevo bene, aveva qualche anno più di me, e mi, ‘Eh, la Giacchero!’ ne abbiamo parlato ‘La Giacchero’, fa ‘volevamo andare a prenderla a casa, ma poi mi hanno sconsigliato, l’abbiamo lasciata perdere’. Per dire che era proprio una signora che si distingueva dalle altre per essere così cattiva e fascista insomma. Ecco questo. Non tutte erano così naturalmente ma quella, combinazione, l’ho avuta io. È andata così.
ZG: Invece, cambiando discorso, lei si ricorda dei tedeschi? A parte per quell’episodio del 25 aprile?
GP: Sì, sì, mi ricordo dei tedeschi. Mi ricordo dei tedeschi perché i tedeschi avevano occupato l’Alta Italia tutti i paesi, non soltanto dei presidi. Tutti i paesi piccoli e grandi erano presidiati. Noi avevamo lì, abitava vicino a dove abitavo io, nello stesso cortile avevamo un, era un sottoufficiale, era un sottoufficiale o ufficiale non di grande grado comunque abitava lì, quel tedesco lì. Poi c’erano altri, c’è un capitano, c’era dei piccoli presidi insomma in altre parti del paese ma io mi ricordo c’era questo capitano che aveva sequestrato un cavallo bello, che correva a cavallo nel viale del paese, per dire un ricordo perché questo. C’erano tedeschi c’erano anche lì. Dappertutto.
ZG: Che impressione le facevano?
GP: Boh, niente, diciamo che, mi ricordo che mio fratello è andato a rubargli la marmellata in un, c’era in questo caseggiato c’era un magazzino che mio nonno faceva il falegname. Quando sono arrivati i tedeschi han sequestrato tutto, mio nonno non ha fatto più il falegname e loro mettevano lì le vettovaglie e mio fratello con un altro ragazzo sono andati a rubargli le scatole di marmellata eccetera. Si vede che si sono accorti che c’erano, non lo so, e, e questo qui si è accorto e ci ha dato tante scudisciate che [laughs] insomma ecco. Però come persona non era corretta, non, con noi non ha mai detto niente, mai fatto niente. Ci tenevano a stare tranquilli, stavano bene lì quel paese.
ZG: Senta, tornando a quel episodio del 25 aprile, lei aveva già avuto contatti con dei partigiani?
GP: No. Chiariamo bene. I contatti che avevo io erano con gli imboscati, che era diverso. Nel senso che, in quel paese lì i partigiani non c’erano, non avevano niente a che vedere, erano nei paesi più grandi erano verso le colline, verso le montagne. Ma però c’erano gli imboscati voglio dire il. Nel ’43, l’8 settembre, l’esercito si sfasciava e ricordo che molti venivano nelle case, ricordo benissimo venivano anche là, si toglievano le divise e cercavano qualche giacca, qualche pantalone per far vedere che non erano militari, per sfuggire alla Decima MAS che già cominciava a sentirsi. E non i partigiani, solo gli imboscati, cioè coloro che avevano la possibilità di imboscarsi nelle soffitte, nelle campagne, eccetera, ecco. Però c’era qualcuno, c’era qualcuno che si preparava, che non era, era sì un imboscato, non è andato con i partigiani, non è andato con la Decima MAS, con la RSI italiana, i repubblichini, ma che però erano imboscati. Però qualcuno si preparava in quel 25 aprile e siccome io li conoscevo tutti, conoscevo morte, conoscevo morte, vite e miracoli del paese e quindi li conoscevo e sapevo che andavano a provare i mitra, mi ricordo che preparavano le armi per l’eventuale, ma questo gli ultimi giorni ecco, conoscevo questi imboscati diciamo. Partigiani veri e propri li ho conosciuti dopo ma non lì.
ZG: E quando queste persone qua si preparavano con le armi lei ha assistiteva?
GP: Sì, una volta mi ricordo che ero andato assieme e sparavano alle piante per vedere l’effetto che facevano insomma, per vedere le armi se andavano bene. C’avevano un mitra, c’avevano delle pistole, quel gruppo lì insomma che conoscevo io.
ZG: E poi il 25 aprile insomma andando là ha incontrato questo gruppo di partigiani.
GP: Questi gruppi di imboscati, c’erano uno, no, c’erano due forse partigiani che passavano, che davano un po’, che mi davano l’impressione che erano partigiani. Gli altri li conoscevo, erano gli imboscati che c’erano lì, si erano svegliati al momento opportuno. C’era forse una o due persone, una c’era sicuramente che si [unclear] era però il gruppo era quello lì.
ZG: Quindi furono questi imboscati che si erano appostati con la mitragliatrice all’incrocio.
GP: Sì, sì, sì.
ZG: Allora direi che con le domande sulla guerra ho finito. Le volevo chiedere a finita la guerra, lei si ricorda cosa è successo dopo? Siete tornati a Milano, insomma mi racconti un po’.
GP: Ho scritto un libro io.
ZG: Ah.
GP: Beh, molto interessante perché eravamo, diciamo qualcuno era fortunato che era riuscito a fare le scuole medie e andare avanti chi era rimasto a Milano ma la massa era come me, quinta elementare, senza lavoro però la cosa interessante è che il lavoro si trovava subito, c’era molto lavoro, c’era da ricostruire, e quindi sia mio fratello che io e che i miei amici abbiamo trovato da lavoro lì. Ma io vu fa l’elettricista, io vado a fare il meccanico, no, io faccio il panettiere, poi ci, assieme parlavamo e dicevamo: ‘Io vorrei fare questo, vorrei fare quello’. E c’era veramente la possibilità e ci siamo tutti impegnati a lavorare. Abbiamo lavorato da questo punto di vista. E qui io pensavo, speravo di andare a lavorare nella Ceretti e Tanfani, dove c’era mio padre. Il direttore del quale di questa ditta, aveva promesso a mia madre nel ’45 che mi avrebbe assunto appena poteva, ma al momento non poteva e non l’ha fatto. Faccio una parentesi. Questo direttore è stato messo al muro dai tedeschi con i compagni della ditta negli scioperi del ’44, negli scioperi del ’44 perché voi sapete nel ’43 e nel ’44 degli scioperi delle fabbriche di Milano, in particolare Sesto San Giovanni e la Bovisa, dove c’erano tante fabbriche e lì c’erano un gruppo, gli operai erano organizzati, fatto sciopero sono entrati i tedeschi e li hanno messi al muro e non hanno sparato, non gli hanno fatto niente, li hanno obbligato a riprendere il lavoro perché era una ditta ausiliaria, facevano dei lavori che interessavano ai tedeschi e quindi questo signore qui è rimasto direttore d’officina anche dopo la guerra e alla fine prima di essere, di andare via è riuscito ad assumermi, nel ’48 mi ha assunto. Questa persona. E io lì ho potuto capire, sentire tutti gli operai, capire cosa, come hanno vissuto, cosa hanno fatto nel periodo di guerra. E perché allora avevo, nel ’48 avevo diciassette anni ero, e avevo già gli speroni io, eran già due anni che lavoravo e quindi conoscevo già le difficoltà della vita. E quindi poi lì subito a vent’anni ero in commissione interna, facevo commissione interna, quindi conosco bene la vita della fabbrica, prima perché tutti gli amici mi conoscevano perché mio padre ogni tanto mi portava al dopolavoro e allora c’era il dopolavoro. Mi portava là che andavano a giocare alle bocce e poi a Natale c’erano i regali che allora era così durante il tempo del fascio. E tutti gli uomini anziani, gli operai mi conoscevano e quindi ho potuto entrare e conoscere bene le cose. Poi, c’è molto del dopoguerra ma.
ZG: Senta la scuola invece poi è riuscito ad andare avanti quindi?
GP: Sì, ho avuto la fortuna. Dunque intanto la scuola non potevo più nel senso che non avevo fatto le medie, non c’era ancora perché poi i sindacati sono riusciti a imporre la possibilità di fare le scuole medie a chi non le aveva fatte ma io avevo [sic] già troppo avanti. Allora quando sono entrato in Ceretti, la Ceretti aveva le scuole interne. Ho fatto matematica, meccanica e disegno, io poi ero appassionato del disegno, lo facevo prima di andare ancora lì. Ho fatto questi anni qui, questi due, e questo mi ha permesso di studiare perché poi ero uno che, mi piaceva, sapevo, ci capivo. Mi ricordo che il direttore gli diceva agli insegnanti che, gli insegnanti erano tutti gli ingegnieri della ditta, ma perché, perché non, deve andare a scuola questo qui, rimandatelo a scuola, come per dire, perché vedeva che capivo e insomma perchè non va non so, perché non va, ma io avevo la testa dall’altra parte, la testa dall’altra parte dal punto di vista sindacale-politico, per cui non ero, volevo fare quello e non andare a scuola, anche perché alla scuola non potevo andare. Quelle lì l’ho fatta perché mi interessava professionalmente. Vi dirò che ho fatto la vita politica, la vita sindacale fino a ventisei anni, poco eh, dieci anni, a ventisette, a ventisei anni mi sono sposato. Dopodiché ho capito una cosa, che non ero nelle condizioni di fare né il sindacalista né il politico perché la cultura era quella che era per cui, meno male, che ho voluto imparare la mia professione perché sarei stato un cattivo politico e un cattivo sindacalista, questo proprio convinto. Invece ho litigato all’interno della mia azienda per poter avere il mio posto di lavoro, perché allora ero martellato dall’azienda perché volevano disfarmi, disfarsi. Una serie di circostanze che forse è inutile, non interessa a nessuno però diciamo che mi hanno mandato fuori dall’azienda in un’altra azienda di proprietà della Redaelli di Rogoredo. Ho fatto un’esperienza notevole anche là. Dopodiché ho cominciato a lavorare all’esterno della ditta per l’azienda. Alla fine vi dirò che ho fatto il montatore, il capo montatore, il capocantiere, nel ’69 sono andato in ufficio come ispettore di montaggio. Io ho girato il mondo, per dire. America latina, America, Venezuela, andato in parecchi altri posti, son stato in Iran, son stato in Pakistan, son stato in quasi tutta l’Europa nel, e ho cominciato a ventisette anni, ho fatto il primo lavoro da capocantiere, avevo dieci montatori e nel ’59, ventotto anni, e ottanta operai in Sicilia. Ho fatto una teleferica di diciotto chilometri come capo montatore, avevo tutti i montatori della Ceretti, tutti esperti, tutta gente anziana, esperta e io ero, avevo fatto, avevo dieci anni di lavoro alle spalle, avevo fatto anche l’Iran sempre con i capi montatori, avevo fatto la mia esperienza, ma l’ispettore, il capo dell’ufficio montaggi, quando m’ha chiamato per andare in Sicilia per fare quel lavoro lì, ho detto: ’Va bene, vado, chi è che è il capo là?’, ‘No il capo lo fa lei’, ‘No, guardi, il capo lo fa lei’. ‘Sì perché lei’, m’ha detto, ‘io sono sicuro che con la sua savoir-faire volevo dire, il suo modo di fare, riesce a controllare la situazione perché vede, se mando Minisini, se mando Bersani, se mando, son tutti capi, uno che la vuol sapere più lunga degli altri e in effetti era tutta gente esperta. Però lei può metterse, metterli d’accordo, percé se mando uno di questi a fare il capo è una lite unica. Li conosco tutti, mi creda’. ‘Guardi, se lo dice lei’, e in effetti è andata così. Partendo da lì ho fatto presto a far carriera soprattutto perché avevo una cultura tecnica, nel senso che conoscevo il disegno, un po’ di matematica, la meccanica perché se ho fatto l’esperienza, e quindi è stato facile per me far carriera. Facile [laughs], non facile, ma ho potuto farla. E così sono riuscito a fare i miei quarant’anni e poi ho fatto sei anni di consulente dell’azienda. Ecco, questo è stato un po’ la mia carriera.
ZG: Ok, fantastico. Senta,
GP: Beh, forse questo pezzo non vi interesserà, ma insomma, tanto per.
ZG: No, no, no, teniamo tutto, non si preoccupi. Le faccio le ultime due domande. Lei all’epoca, all’epoca della guerra, cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, di chi bombardava?
GP: Le dirò: io sono stato molte volte, mi hanno chiamato nei rifugi a parlare dei bombardamenti e della guerra e i ragazzi diciamo della terza media, o la terza media in genere o la quinta, i ragazzi di diciotto anni, devo dire che è molto faticoso, molto faticoso perché non riescono a esprimersi, non parlano, non chiedono, fanno fatica, però qualche volta qualche domanda intelligente veniva fuori. Mi ricordo che uno ha chiesto: ‘Ma insomma, lei cosa ne pensa degli americani? In fondo hanno ammazzato suo padre, fatto bombardamenti, hanno ammazzato suo padre, quindi come la pensa da questo punto di vista?’. Cosa ho risposto? Dico: ’Sentite, è finita la guerra, ci siamo liberati, io ho avuto la sensazione che ci siamo liberati veramente da un giogo, ci siamo liberati dal fascismo, e io credo che sia stato inevitabile questo sacrificio che abbiamo fatto. Cosa posso fare? Cosa posso mettermi a odiare gli americani? Tutto sommato, gli americani sono anche morti per venirci a liberare. I soldati americani stavano bene in America ma sono venuti qui e ci hanno aiutato a liberarci. È vero, hanno fatto anche dei danni ma alla fine cosa possiamo dire? Cosa possiamo fare? Abbiamo di fronte un altro periodo e non con il giogo sulle spalle’.
ZG: Bene. Per me, se lei non ha altro da dire, finiamo qua. Grazie.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Giuseppe Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
Giuseppe Pirovano remembers wartime memories as schoolboy at Affori, a Milan neighbourhood. Describes daily life in fascist youth organisations, with regimented schooling and political rallies. Mentions childrens plays and pastimes, such as assembling a kick scooter from scrap and recalls fascist militiamen intimidating and jailing dissenters. Recalls conscription dodgers and factory strikes. Gives an account of the 24 October 1942 bombing, which caused limited damage and describes the much more intense one of 10 September 1944. Gives a graphic account of its aftermath, mentioning the death of his father and widespread damage. Describes different shelter types stressing their inadequacy, mentions his experience as evacuee in the Brescia countryside while his father was employed by a manufacturing firm. Recalls Pippo strafing. Gives an account of his experience as trade union activist, describing his post-war career as mechanical engineer. Mentions his involvement in the memorialisation of the bombing war, reflects on the morality of bombing, and stresses how he feels grateful for the sacrifice of those who died.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Format
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01:04:38 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Brescia
Temporal Coverage
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1942-10-04
1944-09-10
1943-09-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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APirovanoG171113
PPirovanoG1701
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/55/452/ACosoloGS160826.1.jpg
b0b7057fcf755d193dc88c74a332b239
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/55/452/ACosoloGS160826.3.mp3
47cbd3a41685739d8302c0fb42b4d8ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cosolo, Gualtiero Silvio
Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo
G S Cosolo
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo who recollects his wartime experiences in Monfalcone and in the surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cosolo, GS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PC: Sono Pietro Comisso e sto per intervistare Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo per l’archivio dell’International Bomber Command Centre. Siamo a Turriaco, Gorizia, è il 26 08 2016. Grazie Silvio per aver permesso questa intervista. Prima di cominciare, vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e infine essere liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi formato per mostra, attività di ricerca, istruzione, come risorsa online?
GSC: Sì, vi do il consenso, molto volentieri.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
GSC: Non ho nessuna contrarietà.
PC: È d’accordo di essere fotografato per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre?
GSC: Sì, anche se non vengo bene perché ho le rughe ma a ottantaquattro anni non posso pretendere di più. E vorrei, se possibile, che mi faccia una bella fotografia.
PC: Grazie Silvio, possiamo cominciare. Allora, Silvio, mi dica qual’è il suo più vecchio ricordo a riguardo dei bombardamenti aerei della Seconda Guerra Mondiale.
GSC: Eh, questo qua è veramente un fatto singolare perché la prima esperienza che ho avuto, adesso io ho letto in qua e in là so che il bombardamento è stato effettuato il 17 marzo o giù di lì insomma del 1944 tra, il primo. Io mi son trovato proprio al centro di questo fatto perché frequentavo la scuola Ceriani, l’avviamento Ceriani di Monfalcone e quando è cominciato il, i bombardamenti naturalmente veniva suonata la sirena d’allarme e noi scappavamo tutti quanti perché ogni mattina succedeva questo, che passavano gli aerei che andavano a bombardare e suonava la sirena e noi scappavamo via con tutti i mezzi che avevamo. E non conoscendo la città di Monfalcone io distrattamente ho, credevo di far bene scappare verso la chiesa, verso il cantiere, così.
PC: Chiesa di Sant’Ambrogio?
GSC: No. Oh, perbacco. Verso l’Hannibal per esempio. La chiesa che finisce…
PC: Marcelliana.
GSC: Marcelliana, che era una chiesa dove si andava a fare le rogazioni cioè andavamo in processione da Turriaco a piedi naturalmente per le stradine per ogni anno si faceva questo voto. Io con la mia bicicletta mi trovai proprio nel momento che bombardavano il cantiere. E, o lo spostamento d’aria o la mia volontà di sopravvivenza, sono caduto nel fosso che era attorno il cimitero di Monfalcone ormai dismesso adesso e addirittura quando hanno cominciato mi cascava qualche pezzo di terra, qualcosa e sono stato testimone, mio malgrado, dei primi morti che hanno portato lì alla Marcelliana. Che l’impressione mi è durata per tantissimi anni, a veder questa carneficina, questi operai che venivano a brandelli, insomma è stato una, credo sia stato il più tremendo dei bombardamenti che aveva subìto e vedere tutto questo sangue, tutto questo, questi pezzi di, mi ha fatto almeno per dieci, quindici anni, ho avuto sempre questa impressione. E io mi son trovato proprio in questo frangente. Fortunatamente mi sono limitato a darmi una spolverata però ho visto quello che un ragazzo di dodici anni non avrebbe mai dovuto assistere. Ecco questa qua è stata la mia prima esperienza dopodichè non mi ricordo quanti altre volte hanno bombardato il cantiere, ma insomma a me era sufficiente aver assistito la prima volta. Questo è quanto. Le interessava di sapere qualcosa altro?
PC: Riguardo ai bombardamenti, quando avvenivano lei andava in rifugio antiaereo? Aveva un luogo preciso dove andava a rifugiarsi?
GSC: Allora questo qua anche che qualche tempo fa ho cercato di andare sul posto dov’era l’entrata della galleria, cioè l’uscita nella galleria che partiva dalla Piazza della Repubblica o come si chiama di fianco alla farmacia. C’era questo buco, questo bucone che non ho mai saputo per quale motivo era stata costruita, se durante la prima guerra mondiale o per la seconda. So che dopo questo bombardamento noi, specialmente delle scuole, correvamo sempre a rifugiarci dentro con biciclette tutto quanto dentro a questo. E mi ricordo questo posto che le prime volte mi faceva impressione perche c’era una farmacia dentro o qualche pronto soccorso poi c’era qualcosa che per dissetare quelli che avevano, no, niente di speciale. Ma adesso che rivivo in pratica questi momenti avrei piacere di visitarla a fondo perché mi è stato promesso. Quando ho fatto la mostra lì alla mutuo soccorso, c’era un responsabile, tra l’altro sarà anche suo amico perche s’interessava anche di reperti raccolti nella galleria, no, e mi aveva promesso che quando sarà mi inviterà a vedere e mi farebbe molto, molto piacere. Comunque eh quello che mi viene in mente quando mi prendevo questi appunti, potrei dare un suggerimento, se fosse necessario, a sollecitare chi di dovere cioè le autorità. Perché non valorizzare questo reperto storico per creare una galleria vera e propria. Potrebbe essere una galleria d’arte, si potrebbe trasformare in altre attività perché il posto anche sicuramente, anche se non è tanto accogliente però si può fare. Io, nel mio libro se posso parlare di questo, addirittura sfrutto le gallerie del Klondike, dell’Alaska e Siberia per, perché stanno realizzando un progetto della costruzione di una città che puo’ ospitare novecentomila, un milione di persone per sopravvivere alla futura e prossima fine del mondo. E se lo fanno loro e lo spiego anche perché usufruendo di qualche condotto che proviene del nucleo della Terra che ha seimila metri, un ingegnere italiano ha scoperto la maniera di usufruire di questa energia per creare l’acqua, l’aria e tutto ciò che occorre per fare, per dare la sopravvivenza a questo popolo. È un progetto futuribile naturalmente e naturalmente come tutte le novità, come tutte le cose anormali, sarà messo in forte discussione, sarà contraddetto magari, che non si può così non si può colà. Io nel, in questo libro spiego tutte queste cose e può darsi che mi diano anche del pazzo.
PC: Una domanda mi veniva in mente. Lei praticamente era un ragazzino esposto a questa esperienza drammatica dei bombardamenti aerei. Nel tunnel, visto che mi raccontava che c’andavate con tutti gli altri ragazzini della scuola, cosa facevate mentre eravate lì dentro?
GSC: Eh, sicuramente quella volta non si diceva casino, perché era una parola troppo grossa, però cagnara sì. Facevamo cagnara perché per noi dato che… Forse sono stato l’unico a avere un’esperienza diretta del primo bombardamento, li altri ridevano, la raccontavano, spintoni. Noi, specialmente i bisiacchi, che provenivano dai paesi della Bisiacaria, Turriaco, Pieris, San Canzian, non eravamo ben accolti dai monfalconesi, che erano, i monfalconesi erano sempre ben vestiti, fighetti, e quando che arrivava i bisiacchi, noi eravamo [background noise] o le papuze o i socui se posso dirlo e come vivavamo a casa così portavamo avanti il dialetto che avevamo imparato dai nostri anziani, dai nonni. E quando arrivavamo in classe, ‘oh, xe rivà, ga dit, ga ciot, ga fat,’ come che parlavasi quella volta. E c’era questo contrasto e i ne cioleva un pochetin pel fioco proprio perché parlavisi il bisiacco. Adesso magari tutti quanti vorrebbero essere bisiacchi, tutti quanti vogliono avere la radice bisiacca come fosse un marchio di fabbrica. E invece io sono testimone del contrario, che invece c’era un certo disprezzo come una razza inferiore ecco i bisiacchi. Non parlo di più perche’ ho tantissimi amici di Monfalcone, eh, con cui ho avuto e ho rapporti amichevoli e così, non voglio tradire questa mia amicizia, questa ammirazione che ho per loro.
PC: Dunque lei mi parla della gente di Monfalcone. Le persone di Monfalcone invece? Voi eravate ragazzini ma gli abitanti civili, le donne, gli uomini che erano rifugiati lì dentro invece cosa facevano nelle ore di attesa?
GSC: Diciamo che tutti quanti erano preoccupati, contrariamente a come si comportavano i ragazzi. Perché avevano della gente forse esposta, paura dei bombardamenti, specialmente quelli che lavoravano, era il 90% che lavorava in cantiere e naturalmente i genitori, i vecchi genitori erano preoccupati di altri bombardamenti, altre cose, perché anche la via romana, mi sembra è stato bombardato e mi ricordo la salita, della salita per andare alla stazione, sempre mi ricordo di un palazzo che è stato bombardato e c’erano stati anche dei morti. Eh, si volevo aggiungere una cosa, mi son dimenticato prima che noi ragazzi per frequentare la scuola dovevamo, se c’erano i bombardamenti o le, scappavamo via quando erano le sirene d’allarme dovevamo frequentare per recuperare le ore che perdevamo alla mattina, dovevamo tornare e il pomeriggio. Allora in questi casi qua dovevamo preparare il vasetto della pasta, della minestra da casa, e dove si fa sulla strada, no. Allora attraversavamo la galleria, andavamo su per il colle della Rocca, su due tre pietre facevamo un po’ di fuoco e mettevamo il vasetto della minestra per scaldare e approfittando di quella oretta che ci rimaneva al riparo delle pietre, di qualche pietra, di qualche coso, si ripassava le lezioni. Faccio per non è per un vanto però per far sapere ai nostri ragazzi che si lamentano sempre, e perche la, e la corriera e l’autobus e tutte queste cose qua, invece noi dovevamo adattarci a questo, a questo genere di cose per la sopravvivenza naturalmente e la scuola ne soffriva perché quello che io ho imparato è forse zero rispetto a quello che ho imparato dopo da solo con la mia volontà, leggere e frequentare corsi e tutto quanto, beh per recuperare quello che non avevo imparato a scuola. Naturalmente erano i tempi che erano. Perché quando ci portavamo a Monfalcone con il carro bestiame, coi operai andavamo fino al cantiere, dal cantiere a piedi fino a scuola. E dopo si finiva a mezzogiorno e dovevamo tornare a casa nei vari paesi a piedi e dov’era eh lungo la ferrovia, lungo la ferrovia e per venire a casa da Monfalcone ci volevano due ore almeno. E figurarsi in strada noi giocavamo anche perché i ragazzi malgrado tutte le condizioni avverse, rimangono sempre ragazzi con voglia di divertirsi e di scherzare.
PC: Quindi lei mi diceva, ma mi faccia capire bene, com’era effettivamente viaggiare con il pericolo di, che ci possa essere sempre un attacco aereo, lo spostarsi in quegli anni lì? C’era tensione, c’era paura? C’erano degli ovvi disagi?
GSC: Il disagio era proprio costituito dal fatto che bisognava tornare a casa a piedi e non era sempre tanto piacevole, specialmente d’inverno o con la pioggia, con tutti i tempi. Una cosa che invece era faticoso perché anche viaggiare sa, anche un treno anche se era merci ma in dieci minuti, un quarto d’ora arrivavamo a Monfalcone e non erano grandi viaggi, dove che, sì, poteva, poteva esserci questi fatti di bombardamenti. Ci si sbrigava subito. Quello che era invece più faticoso era andare con la bicicletta che siccome che mancavano le gomme, i copertoni delle biciclette, avevamo delle, dei tubi del vino, le canne da vino a mo’ di copertoni. Per cui era come le biciclette di Enrico Toti, non so se ha idea di, e la fatica era tantissima, specialmente in febbraio quando c’era il vento che durava un mese anche e noi andavamo sul crocevia di Begliano a aspettare la fila degli operai che si recavano al cantiere, e per attaccarsi alla coda perché davanti c’era sempre il più muscoloso che portava avanti la fila, come si vede adesso anche nelle gare ciclistiche c’è sempre uno che si alterna, che tira la coda. Noi facevamo lo stesso là però tutto ciò la fatica era enorme perché per ragazzi di undici, dodici anni, sa, maneggiare queste biciclette era un po’ difficile. Ma pericoli, pericoli, no, però s’incontravano delle scene naturalmente crude, nel senso che una volta proprio sul crocevia di Begliano c’era un rallentamento anche nella fila degli operai perché sulla strada erano quattro morti, quattro partigiani morti, che li avevano uccisi a mitraglia, a mitragliate, i repubblichini e li avevano lasciati lì. Mi ricordo tutti questi cadaveri, tutto l’asfalto pieno di sangue e anche quello è stato un fatto doloroso. Questi qua erano partigiani che li avevano imprigionati prima alle prigioni di Pieris e poi durante la notte li hanno liberati però c’era qualcuno che li aspettava per fucilarli. Questo qua è stato forse la cosa più brutta che mi è successo. E poi si vedevano delle camionette bruciate perché i partigiani quella volta erano molto attivi e non è che attaccavano le caserme però facevano azione di disturbo, come mettere qualche, far saltare obiettivi che erano importanti per i tedeschi e infatti sono delle cose che succedevano molto di frequente fino alla grande battaglia di Gorizia che è stato così, se posso raccontare?
PC: Mammamia!
GSC: L’8 settembre del ’43 mio padre che era in cantiere è stato avvertito insieme a altri compagni, sono riusciti a scappare dal retro del cantiere perché li hanno avvertiti che fuori c’erano dei camion che caricavano tutti gli operai che uscivano dal cantiere per portarli in Germania, così com’erano, in tuta o con abiti da lavoro e mio padre con altri sette, otto, sono riusciti a scappare e sono arrivati fino a Selz con la bicicletta e poi sono andati su in montagna, sono andati verso i paesi della Slovenia, della Yugoslavia quella volta, però Opacchiasella, mi raccontava questi particolari mio padre. Sai, tutti quei paesini lì e lì hanno combattuto ma non battaglie di grosse perché loro facevano azione di disturbo, nelle stazioni disturbavano i telefoni e le linee, azione più che altro di disturbo. E quando si preannunciava la grande offensiva dei tedeschi, tutta la gente dei nostri paesi era preoccupata perché si sentivano i rumori dei carri armati, di tutte le armi, cannoni, tutti quanti, si sentiva per tutta la notte che andavano sù. Risultato che seimila tedeschi armati fino ai denti si portavano verso le montagne per scatenare l’offensiva contro questi partigiani, che non erano tanti ma però davano disturbo. E c’è stato un fatto che mi ha addolorato e cioè mia madre che piangeva tutto il giorno perché si rendeva conto della gravità della situazione. Fortunatamente i capi dei partigiani, quella volta di buon senso, hanno avvertito tutti i capi famiglia, gli uomini che avevano famiglie e figli, li mandavano a casa, e difatti una sera e cioè la vigilia proprio della grande battaglia mio padre è venuto a casa e starei qua delle ore per raccontare quello che era successo ma naturalmente si può immaginare in che stato si trovava quest’uomo, in quali condizioni, magro, con la barba lunga, pieno di pidocchi, vestiti alla meglio come si poteva, con scarpe piene di paglia per poterli indossare. E dopo naturalmente viveva in, da clandestino e a casa mia avevano trovato saltuariamente un posto dove riunire il gruppo di partigiani cioè quelli che operavano per reperire viveri, armi e tutto quanto per mandare su. Per cui erano cinque o sei persone che si riunivano a volte in una casa una volta in un’altra e la mia casa che si trovava su questa strada, la via principale, e mi mandavano a stare dentro e avvertire se venivano, se passavano camion di tedeschi perché quasi ogni giorno c’era il rastrellamento, arrivavano due o tre camion in piazza, saltavano giù i tedeschi e i repubblichini coi mitra spianati e facevano ognuno una via e prendevano sempre qualcuno perché qua erano quasi tutti i ragazzi partigiani. E io facevo da vendetta. Non sapevo l’importanza però oggi mi rendo conto che anch’io ho contribuito in qualche maniera perché mi davano dei bigliettini da portare a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, che erano partigiani che facenti parte del Comitato di Liberazione e mi rendo conto che anch’io ho portato il mio granellino sul mucchio della libertà e sono fiero di aver partecipato. Quello che si fa è naturalmente a fin di bene.
PC: Volevo farle ancora una domanda per ritornare alla guerra aerea. Lei mi ha raccontato di questa esperienza terribile di vedere queste scene dei, gli operai del cantiere smembrati, portati. Cosa pensa, adesso dopo tutti questi anni, dei bombardamenti aerei? Cosa le è rimasto? Prova un senso di rabbia o di, per chi li provocava o magari ha capito quello che poteva essere lo scopo di quegli atti anche così violenti e brutali come potevano essere i bombardamenti aerei?
GSC: [sigh] Naturalmente la guerra è una cosa che non porta sicuramente dei benefici. Cioè forse sbaglio. I benefici ce li hanno chi costruisce le bombe, chi costruisce le armi, è un business, e quando le guerre non ci sono, le inventano, perché proprio è un business. In fatto di paura naturalmente nel nostro paese qua esistevano, esistono ancora ma sono inglobate nelle case che sono state costruite dopo, delle trincee, delle grandi trincee che erano state costruite durante la guerra del ’15-’18 e avevano degli stanzoni grandi dove qualcuno s’era [pause] aveva creduto opportuno per salvare i bambini dai bombardamenti, di farli dormire in queste trincee e noi avevamo qua vicino al campo sportivo una trincea che si prestava benissimo per cui stavano 25, 30 bambini, in qualche maniera, e noi bambini e i vecchi andavamo ogni sera lì a dormire in questa, in questi stanzoni. Proprio la preoccupazione era di Pippo si chiamava, noi l’avevamo battezzato Pippo, che era un aereo da bombardamento che passava su tutti i paesi, ma girava proprio tutta la notte e dove vedeva delle luci buttava giù i spezzoni, naturalmente qua a Begliano nelle casette avevano buttato e era morta una ragazza di diciotto anni e quello ci ha fatto tanta impressione. Proprio da lì era scaturita questa idea di farci dormire nelle trincee, perché anche durante la notte era pericolo, gli operai che andavano o che venivano a casa avevano i fanali coperti da un pezzo di carta di giornale con un buchino giusto che passava un lumicino di luce per poter, e anche queste qua, questi fatti naturalmente comportava dei pericoli, perché io non so come riuscivano a individuare delle piccole luci da mille metri non so appunto, viaggiava questo apparecchio, questo Pippo. E però faceva paura, guai aprire la finestra, guai aprire la porta, guai fuori perché c’era sempre questo star sul chi va là delle bombe. Altri fatti, non so, da menzionare, così come, non so, l’uccisione per esempio, ma quello forse è un’altra cosa. Avevano ucciso per vendette perché non lo voglio dire perché potrebbe essere interpretato nella maniera sbagliata, però succedeva anche nei paesi. Per esempio, questo lo posso dire, un certo Walter, che era una spia dei nazisti, dei repubblichini che erano quelli dell’esercito del duce dopo l’8 settembre. Quello è stato ucciso in ospedale, cioè gli hanno sparato in ospedale e visto che non era ancora morto l’hanno ucciso, sono andati là i partigiani e l’hanno ucciso e mi sembra di ricordare che hanno ucciso anche sua madre che lo assisteva. Walter, Walter si chiamava. È una cosa che ti faceva non piacere ma era come un senso di giustizia dato che questo Walter, questo famigerato Walter era uno spione e tutti quanti applaudirono a questo fatto perché era come Zorro che difendeva i più deboli e per noi era stato un fatto molto grave.
PC: D’accordo. Silvio, la ringrazio infinitamente, se ha qualche altro.
GSC: Forse ho chiacchierato più del.
PC: No, ma va molto bene. Io la ringrazio della, dell’intervista e grazie di nuovo, anche a nome della Lincoln.
GSC: Non è facile naturalmente, parlare, descrivere con, perché se uno legge qualcosa di preparato è difficile io ritengo.
PC: Andava benissimo.
GSP: Ritengo.
PC: Andava benissimo.
GSC: Io ho questo, ma forse non interessa. Io ho cominciato avere i ricordi della mia vita quando avevo due anni e mezzo. Qua ho cominciato con i primi ricordi, e sono andato avanti descrivendo un po’ quello che succedeva nei paesi, quello che succedeva nella mia famiglia, sono anche storie personali, ma posso tranquillamente vantarmi perché non c’è qualcosa di offensivo per nessuno. Sono arrivato fino al, non è la conclusione perché qua ho messo continua però sono arrivato fino al ’45, concludendo che la guerra aveva provocato 40 milioni di morti. Se lei ha.
PC: Con molto piacere, con molto piacere.
GSC: Un quarto d’ora, venti minuti.
PC: Sicuramente.
GSC: Da leggere.
PC: La ringrazio infinitamente.
GSC: Puo darsi che trovi qualche spunto per continuare il suo lavoro.
PC: Grazie mille.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo recalls attending the Ceriani vocational school in Monfalcone, at this time the air raid siren went off every day and the children would run to the nearest shelter. Describes the 7 March 1944 bombing and the gruesome sight of dead shipyard workers, an event which scared him for years to come. Remembers the sense of oppression when he first went to a public shelter. Contrasted the behaviour of boys laughing out loudly and messing around, and the composure of adults who looked worried and thoughtful. Recalls the rivalries among boys from different towns and neighbourhoods and describes the blackout precautions of the dockyard workers. Recounts memories of his dad and friends who evaded roundup and managed to escape to Slovenia and later took part in the Battle of Gorizia, a series of actions between Germans and partisans. Recounted acting as a lookout when partisans used his home as a meeting place.
Creator
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Pietro Commisso
Date
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2016-08-26
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:34:54 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ACosoloGS160826
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Temporal Coverage
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1944-03-07
1943-09-08
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/60/528/PDellEraG1701.2.jpg
256939ba01c61bf2c5e2007b8c645f83
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/60/528/ADell EraG170225.2.mp3
94a9f104f1910111032202d949bf8b81
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EP: Ok. L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatrice è Erica Picco. L’intervistato è il Signor Guido Dell’Era. Nella stanza è presente Sara Troglio. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted] a Milano e oggi è il 25 febbraio e sono le undici del mattino. Possiamo cominciare. La prima domanda che le faccio, come si è detto, partiamo da prima della guerra.
GD: Si’
E le chiedo, cosa faceva lei prima della guerra? Studiava? Quanti anni aveva? Come organizzava la sua quotidianità? Quali erano le sue impressioni riguardo a quel periodo?
GD: Prima della guerra, io ero studente. Sono stato studente fino a diciott’anni. Diciott’anni fino quando ho preso il diploma di geometra conseguito presso l’istituto, dunque, Carlo Cattaneo di Piazza Vetra a Milano. Per raggiungere l’istituto dovevo prendere il tram su Viale Monza, la linea Milano-Monza, scendevo a Porta Venezia, da lì prendevo un altro tram per portarmi verso il centro di Milano. Questo è il percorso che facevo, e l’ho fatto per parecchi anni, finché avevo finito la scuola. Il periodo significativo, cioè che ricordo bene è stato il 25 aprile del 1943, quando è stato defenestrato Mussolini e anche lì bisognava vedere le reazioni del popolo. Ricordo la stazione centrale, c’erano due fasci enormi di bronzo, sono stati proprio abbattuti [emphasis] completamente, e si sentiva proprio l’odio verso Mussolini perché indubbiamente, tutti quanti nel giugno del ’40 sembrava che fossero osannanti Mussolini, ah meno male perché, ci sembrava che fosse un motivo logico perché i tedeschi stavano invadendo tutta l’Europa, ‘come mai Mussolini non entra? ah deve entrare’. Sapevamo tutti quanti, lo sapevamo noi che eravamo giovani, che parecchie armi erano finte. C’erano i carri armati di legno per scrivere agli atti. Quando Mussolini ha invitato Hitler in Italia e ha fatto vedere che erano carri carmati di legno, i cannoni di legno, cosa incredibile. Siamo, per cui siamo entrati in guerra nel modo peggiore, tutto perché c’è questa fretta di voler agganciare, agganciarsi ai tedeschi perché, se per caso i tedeschi avessero vinto, noi saremmo rimasti fuori, invece partecipando è stata poi la nostra rovina. E adesso, diceva, scusi?
EP: Le chiedevo appunto, prima della guerra.
GD: Ah, prima della guerra, sì, sì.
EP: Prima proprio dello scoppio.
GD: Appunto, facevo questo dopo scuola. Poi c’è stata l’interruzione nel giugno del ’44 quando mi avevano chiamato per andare a fare lavori agricoli leggeri in Germania. Per cui sono rimasto da quel momento senza tessera, senza niente, ero un isolato, un disertore praticamente perché non mi ero presentato alle armi. E c’era il pericolo effettivamente che se per caso avessero beccato un qualche volantino contro il Fascismo c’era la galera, tant’è vero che un mio compagno di scuola, delle elementari questo di Sesto San Giovanni, Renzo Del Riccio è stato fucilato nell’agosto del 1943, fucilato in Piazzale Loreto, perché Loreto è diventato così famoso in seguito prima di questo omicidio, di questo fatto eh [pause]. Dunque della Svizzera ho già raccontato mi sembra, no.
EP: Ci racconti ancora, ci racconti meglio.
GD: Ho tentato di entrare, ah sì, ero entrato già in Svizzera attraverso il valico ferrovie dello stato sceso a Bienzone un paesino che c’è in Valtellina ho valicato questo pezzo di non dico di Alpi, di montagne, sono arrivato nel, in Svizzera e mi ha colpito molto avendo qui abituati agli oscuramenti a vedere questa vallata tutta illuminata proprio mi ha colpito in un modo terribile perché di la non c’era la guerra di conseguenza bisognava tutto. Dopo due giorni ci hanno rimandato indietro perché non potevamo. Comunque con noi c’era una famiglia, una piccola famiglia costituita da padre, madre e questo bimbetto, si sono fatti cura gli svizzeri di telefonare a Zurigo dove viveva questa nonna, l’hann chiamata e hanno preso il bambino praticamente è rimasta la bambina. Di cinque persone, beh tre sono rimaste, due prigionieri russi che erano con noi, il bambino e noi due invece, noi tre siamo venuti indietro. Io ho potuto riprendere la scuola, mi ero rivolto al presidente, al preside della scuola, ho detto, guardi che io sono nato a febbraio però se lei mi fa un documento come risulta dalla carta da me falsificata, è stato molto gentile tra l’altro, è stato molto comprensivo, e ho potuto finire la scuola. In quel periodo mi ricordo che erano venuti anche a fare propaganda, addirittura c’era uno, me lo ricordo come se fosse ieri, piccoletto, grassoccio con i baffettini, che faceva propaganda per le SS italiane, pensate un po’ che roba. Perché purtroppo in Italia in quel momento lì c’erano quelli che andavano alle SS, quelli che andavano alla Muti, quelli che andavano alla Resiga, insomma [pause] e in questo frangente mi ricordo che.
Unknown person: Scusi, io vado signor Guido, ci vediamo dopo. La chiave è lì al solito posto.
GD: Va bene, grazie ciao. Scusate che mi fermo ogni tanto perché devo fare un po’ mente locale.
EP: Ci mancherebbe altro.
GD: Sono passati troppi anni. E poi, dunque, un momentino, quando ho detto che ho lavorato per due o tre anni in un impresa di costruzioni a Sesto San Giovanni poi mi sono fatto la domanda all’ENI. Combinazione stavano facendo un pezzo di gasdotto e io ho spostato dei materiali di che [unclear] da parte voi ma esistono su alla SNAM, la SNAM non si sapeva cos’era di preciso e allora cosa ho fatto ho presentato domanda in Corso Venezia 16 e mi hanno assunto. Andavano a vedere però se una persona era a posto, se era idee politiche o altro, questo lo guardavano eh, il servizio del personale della SNAM. Poi, non so, l’ho già detto, sono stato all’AGIP mineraria in via Gabba, poi via Gabba siamo, tornati, andati tutti a San Donato Milanese quando San Donato Milanese è diventato grosso quartiere non solamente residenziale ma anche di uffici, hanno fatto il primo palazzo uffici, secondo palazzo uffici, vabbè insomma sono arrivato là. Io sono andato in pensione nel milenovecento, cento, sai che non lo ricordo, beh trentacinque anni dopo, dal ’50 all’86.
EP: Vorrei riportarla al periodo appunto dello scoppio della guerra.
GD: Sì.
EP: Innanzitutto volevo capire meglio la sua famiglia, se era figlio unico, se ha altri fratelli.
GD: Sì, figlio unico.
EP: E in famiglia, l’avvento della guerra com’è stato vissuto, ne avete parlato a casa, come, come è stato vissuto?
GD: Mah, cosa vuole, allora non si poteva parlarne a casa, perché eravamo un po’ inquadrati tutti quanti, no. Beh, io sono stato Balilla, sono stato Avanguardista, tutte queste, marinaretto anche a Milano va bene comunque [laughs] e abbiamo seguito questo però Mussolini era un grande uomo finché è venuto fuori tutte le magagne che sono venute fuori. No, io ricordo per esempio che il primo, nel giugno, non so esattamente se il trenta quando, il primo allarme d’aereo ecco, il primo allarme è stato una cosa scioccante mi ricordo dormivo e c’era mia mamma che veniva a scrollarmi ero in sonno profondo, ero giovane e dice ‘Guido guarda che c’è il bombardamento, c’era l’allarme allora abbiamo incominciato ad assuefarci agli allarmi aerei c’era la prima sirena, la seconda sirena, il pericolo grave, il pericolo non grave, c’era tutto un sistema. Milano, ecco questo, era circondata da batterie di contraerea. Erano cannoni che ci hanno forniti i tedeschi perché anche noi [unclear] andavamo a prendere le inferriate delle case, come a casa mia per fonderli e fare l’acciaio, figurati un po’ che l’autarchia . E quando venivano gli aerei entravano in funzione le batterie e sparavano, sparavano non si sa. Sembrerà che ci fossero anche i tedeschi a aiutarci a usare le batterie. Ho saputo poi che gli aerei, i cannoni arrivavano fino a ottomila metri d’altezza e gli aerei cosa facevano, stavano su una quota superiore per cui non si prendevano mai. Infatti in tutto il periodo di guerra mi sembra che Milano abbia abbattuto tre aerei, tre aerei, pensate un po’. Quando, quando è arrivato, quando sono arrivati dal, sempre dal sud arrivavano, a bombardare Precotto, eh quello me lo ricordo bene, i bombardamenti di Precotto, eravamo io e mio padre sul terrazzo di casa, un po’ incoscienti vediamo cosa c’è, abbiamo visto in cielo un gruppo di aerei ma erano parecchi eh sembrava che, da sotto sparavano ma, mah, dico chissà cosa sono poi abbiamo sentito come il sibilo delle bombe che scendevano e le esplosioni perché per la prima bomba che noi abbiamo scoperto qui da noi era a chilometri di distanza davanti alla chiesa di Precotto era scoppiata la prima bomba. Eh niente c’era un tram, mi ricordo, un convoglio tramviario che era stato bloccato perché c’era l’allarme ma non solo ma perché era stata bombardata la strada. Allora cosa ho fatto io, come mia madre era andata non so per quale motivi in comune, allora io parto alla ricerca di mia madre, speriamo che non sia su questo tram che è stato colpito. E sono arrivato fino a Porta Venezia. A Porta Venezia c’erano ancora le, i baracconi delle fiere lì, tiro a segno, altre giostre, ed era lì che c’erano tutti, guardate cosa è successo, a due chilometri di distanza è stato un bombardamento orca miseria lo sapevo io portavano adesso con i telefonini si sa tutto quanto ma allora e dico guardate che è successo sta roba ma no e dico purtroppo è così allora a piedi torno poi mia madre era riuscita a venire a casa da sola, siamo venuti con dei miei amici siamo venuti a piedi. Ecco un’altra cosa per esempio quando c’era l’allarme a scuola maggior parte cercava di fuggire, di non andare nei rifugi [unclear] per venire a casa, perche’ insomma e facevamo a piedi dal Carlo Cattaneo, Piazza Vetra fino qui a casa. Quando si arrivava a casa arrivava, finiva l’allarme e arrivava il tram, questo è un particolare. Serviva a noi per fare un po’ di ginnastica. Ecco. Vabbè
PD: Permesso, buongiorno
EP: Buongiorno.
GD: Patrizia, Ciao, Patrizia. Mia figlia.
PD: Buongiorno.
EP: Piacere. Possiamo riprendere?
GD: Sì, se volete possiamo parlare anche semplicemente di fatti politici. Perché prima abbiamo parlato, no del momento la caduta di Mussolini è stata il 25 aprile del ’43 e anche lì sfogo della gente perché insomma. E mi ricordo a Porta Venezia c’era ancora uno con i fascetti lì [laughs] ma scusi ma cosa sta facendo lei e gli dico guardi che non c’è più Mussolini dovrebbe averli al contrario [laughs] quello si è preso, è scappato via di volata, vabbè. Ecco invece nel bombardamento di Precotto cosa visto una cosa gravissima, sembra che sia stato un errore logistico cioè anziché prendere le ferrovie dello stato hanno preso il Viale Monza e purtroppo ci sono stati duecento e rotti morti al Gorla. A Precotto invece è stata colpita anche lì la scuola di Precotto infatti c’è ancora la foto, l’ho fatta fare io quella targa ‘scuola bombardata il 20 ottobre del 1944’. I bambini che mi dispiace perché avrei detto a un mio amico se vuoi venire lì per l’intervista era un bambino d’allora [unclear] però insomma fatto sta che grazie alla partecipazione di questo Don Carlo Porro si chiama questo, è intervenuto e altri cittadini che erano li, avevano aiutato hanno passato l’inferriata della cantina e hanno fatto uscire tutti i bambini. Come sono usciti i bambini, è crollato il rifugio antiaereo, che poi momento rifugio antiaereo per modo di dire perché cos’erano delle travi di legno con dei puntelli sotto, no, non c’era niente di particolare. E tant’è vero che Don Carlo Porro è stato insignito della medaglia d’oro al valore civile. Ecco poi andando avanti nel, in questo percorso che facevamo, mi ha colpito una ragazza giovane stesa sul marciapiede. Come pure anche un cavallo, pensate un po’ che roba, quel cavallo ce lo siamo ripresi, ripresi io e un altro mio amico che combinazione era di guardia alla stazione di Greco e dice ma ti ricordi eh? Mi ricordo quel cavallo, poveretto, era squarciato, tant’è vero che l’hanno accoppato subito, per non farlo soffrire [pause]. Ecco, il Viale Monza era, era come, vediamo, può girare la pagina c’era in fondo, ecco Viale Monza era così, ecco linea tramviaria, il percorso andata e ritorno e gli alberi. Era uno spettacolo, in estate sembrava di entrare quasi in una cosa, nell’aria condizionata perché questi rami che si riunivano in cima perché erano alberi molto alti quelli che poi fra l’altro gli alberi sono stati rubati [emphasis] in tempo di guerra perché non c’era niente. Non c’era carbone, non c’era niente. Ogni tanto si prendevano la fune, sotto con l’accetta, rompevano e facevano cadere l’albero e poi saltavano addosso come tanti topi a rosicchiare [laughs]. Insomma allora non c’era proprio più niente.
EP: Mi racconti un po’ meglio com’era il quartiere, com’era organizzato, come conducevate la vostra vita di ragazzi a quell’epoca.
GD: Allora questa zona qui di Milano, da Precotto arrivava fino a Sesto, era tutti terreni agricoli. I terreni agricoli venivano coltivati da dei contadini che risiedevano a Precotto [unclear] perché c’erano delle famiglie intere che venivano qui al mattino, i cascinotti , venivano a lasciare gli animali, facevano i loro lavori e poi alla sera ripartivano questo su con il cavallo, con le cariole perché c’è sempre un chilometro di percorso eh da qui a Precotto. I terreni erano coltivati dunque innanzitutto c’erano i bachi da seta perché ciascuna famiglia aveva un po’ il reparto apposta per i bachi da seta che rendevano qualche cosa, li portavano a Monza dove c’era il, come si chiama lì, il ricupero dei bachi da seta perché il baco da seta era un insetto un po’ schifosetto ma però eh era produttivo eh difatti in Cina per esempio la seta che ha uno sviluppo mica da ridere. Poi l’altra parte dei terreni erano coltivati a verdure. Infatti mi ricordo che c’erano gli asparagi, addirittura, insalate varie e il venerdì sera venivano raccolte questa frutta nei cesti, venivano lavati nei fossi che erano abbastanza fornito bene perché era l’acqua del Villoresi, sai, il Villoresi che usciva da Sesto e veniva qui da noi, si dischiudeva fino a Precotto. Venivano lavate le verdure e venivano portati il sabato mattina al mercato di via Benedetto Marcello, Via Benedetto Marcelo è abbastanza vicino a noi, e allora col carro portavano e vendevano i loro ortaggi e poi rientravano la sera, era una giornata abbastanza. Poi, momentino, poi molta gente invece lavorava negli stabilimenti che sono qua nei dintorni, tant’è vero che la fermata che c’era qui da noi in fondo alla nostra via la chiamavano l’agraria perche la Breda faceva macchine agricole ai tempi, poi si è messa a fare i cannoni, le macchine per, immagina l’agraria. Per cui tra le varie fermate c’era Sesto San Giovanni, agraria, Villanuova, che era a metà strada, e Precotto. Poi nel, quando hanno cominciato i lavori della metropolitana, ecco questo è un altro particolare, quando hanno iniziato i lavori della metropolitana, che qui in fondo c’era la rimessa della metropolitana, hanno scoperto ancora un paio di bombe che erano inesplose e c’era un maresciallo Bizzarri che si chiamava del genio militare, che era comandato qui a Milano, io l’ho visto personalmente proprio, veniva con una sua camionetta di carabinieri, scendeva con la sua chiave inglese, col petrolio perché lubrificava la parte filacciata, si metteva a cavallo e con la chiave inglese girava, un lavoro pericolosissimo. Non so quante bombe ha disinnescato, probabilmente lo troverete da qualche parte questo maresciallo Bizzarri perché è un personaggio troppo importante. E finiva il suo lavoro e senza prendere nessuna precauzione. Noi eravamo ragazzotti ancora e quella volta lì che era venuto eravamo tutti in giro a vedere. Imprudenza, eh, perchè successivamente i lavori che hanno fatto successivamente di disinnesco, adesso chilometri e chilometri li lasciavano completamente liberi eh. Era pericolo.
EP: E il gruppo di voi ragazzi, eravate compagni di scuola dell’istituto geometri e ragionieri?
GD: Beh qualcuno sì. Sì ma erano gli operai figli di contadini no. A parte che noi eravamo in quattro gatti erano pochi bambini qua, a Percotto c’erano, qui da noi. Le palazzine erano state costruite nel ’28, ’29, ’30 per cui non c’erano grandi famiglie. Ecco stavo dicendo che hanno sviluppato, dai terreni agricoli sono diventati, io ho una cartolina tanto che tu lo scriva, hanno lottizzato e fatto dei terreni fabbricabili tant’è vero che su una cartolina c’è scritto ‘acqua, luce, gas e il tram ogni mezz’ora’. [laughs] Questa, la pubblicità di questa cartolina probabilmente c’è anche sul. Ecco, non, altro non. Ah momento, ecco si’.I ragazzi cosa facevano, andavano al naviglio a fare il bagno ecco, il naviglio era diventato una piscina . Oppure peggio ancora e pericoloso le cave, la cava di Precotto, la cava di Crescenzago venivano utilizzate dai ragazzi, da me in particolare, a fare il bagno ed era pericolo perché l’acqua fredda poteva anche creare qualche malessere, ah. Oppure si andava al Villoresi, ma il Villoresi era molto pericoloso perché aveva una velocità d’acqua abbastanza veloce, il Villoresi. Vediamo se c’è ancora qualcos’altro che, ah ecco. Più che i bombardamenti erano i mitragliamenti. Quasi tutti i giorni dalla fine del ’44 all’inizio del ’45 arrivavano due o tre cacciabombardieri da sud, io li vedevo da casa mia, viravano all’altezza dei campi qui di Precotto e si dirigevano verso le Ferrovie dello Stato e mitragliavano, probabilmente su segnalazione del controspionaggio che c’era. E si direbbe i due piloti, guardi era una cosa incredibile, li vedevi che scendevano d’altra parte non c’era più contraerea, quelli venivano giù tranquillamente e mitragliavano ed ogni tanto si sentivano sbuffare il vapore perche’ le caldaie perforate fatti per dire [unclear], ma guarda un po’, tant’è vero che poi sono stati, della resistenza sono stati fucilati tre ferrovieri che facevano parte dei comitati antifascisti.
EP: E durante i mitragliamenti, voi ragazzi cercavate di stare a guardare o vi mettevate al riparo?
GD: No, ma io e mio padre eravamo un po’ incoscienti restavamo sul terrazzo del, perché li vedevamo [unclear] e poi giravano, perché era un percorso fisso non c’era ecco un momentino il Viale Monza tra l’altro era sbarrato, era chiuso da due muraglioni, uno sulla destra, uno sulla sinistra in modo che i metri che dovevano fare, a parte che c’erano pochi metri, dovevano fare questa esse, questo percorso forzato e lì era di sentinella, c’erano dei militari prevalentemente fascisti erano questi e mi ricordo che una volta mi sembra che su quel, su questo qui c’è scritto, era il due o tre gennaio del ’45, credo, si son messi hann visto che arrivavano questi aerei così bassi, si sono messi di sotto a sparargli sopra quelli cosa hanno fatto? Hanno virato ancora e hanno cominciato a mitragliare Viale Monza, la guerra italiana, ah povero. E il 25 aprile poi è stato l’esplosione finale che è la caccia. Ma io ricordo per esempio che i tedeschi avevano tentato, non si sono arresi ai partigiani e hanno tentato di sfondare verso la Svizzera e infatti su Viale Monza vedevo [unclear] un sacco di mezzi dei tedeschi che andavano poi a un certo momentino hanno fatto marcia indietro e son tornati e sono andati in Piazzale Fiume dove c’era la sede principale della Wehrmacht. Ecco un altro particolare per esempio. In tempo di guerra tutte le filovie di Milano erano sparite, erano state depositate al parco di Monza su dei mattoni, su dei supporti perché le gomme le hanno portate via i tedeschi. Pensate un po’ la guerra cosa faceva. Andavamo a rubare, andavano a rubare le ruote delle filovie di Milano per usarle su. Ah rubavano anche le biciclette i tedeschi, eh, intendiamoci. Ultimamente erano abbastanza accaniti contro di noi. Forse avevano anche ragione perché noi li abbiamo traditi eh, i Tedeschi, proprio uguale..
EP: Io vorrei tornare un momento alla, a quando eravate a scuola. Prima accennava al fatto che arrivavano a fare propaganda a scuola.
GD: Sì, sì sì.
EP:Con che modalità cercavano di, insomma ?
GD: Ma io mi ricordo nell’atrio dove ci sono la tromba delle scale no, e c’era lì questo tizio qui vestito da SS. ‘Eh ma dovete se volete partecipare, ah no, volontari vi trattiamo bene’ ci lusingavano un po’ sul mangiare perché c’era poco da mangiare allora e mi ricordo che a un certo momentino nel pieno di questa propaganda qualcuno dall’ultimo piano ha buttato giù volantini antifascisti oh [laughs] lo spaghetto, lo spavento generale e quello si è trovato completamente spiazzato eh, stava facendo propaganda per andare eh, e hanno buttato giù i manifesti. C’è stato indubbiamente qualche testa calda perché il capo era pericoloso eh. Ah poi gli americani dicevano ‘noi bombardiamo perché voi italiani vi dovete ribellare ai tedeschi’ ma come si faceva a ribellare. Chi si faceva. Non avevamo nessuna arma. Mah! E poi quando c’è stato il 25 aprile c’erano, andavano a cercare di prendere beh hanno fermato anche i grossi gerarchi sul ponte di Orla adesso non mi ricordo i nomi quali erano che poi la maggior parte sono stati poi fucilati, eh. Beh, sul Lago Maggiore per esempio, la, credo che sia la famiglia Petacci mi sembra che li abbiano fucilati si buttavano nel lago e venivano presi di mira. E insomma, cose tremende. Eh, insomma. Comunque per carità la guerra.
EP: Quando è scoppiata la guerra, qual’è stato il più grande cambiamento che lei ha potuto vedere, cioè dal momento in cui appunto si discuteva di intervento, non intervento, cosa fare, c’era dibattito all’interno, tra di voi ragazzi magari?
GD: No, non c’era nessun dibattito il 10 giugno del ’40. Non c’era, eravamo tutti inquadrati. Successivamente, allora, sentivamo Radio Londra, sentivamo la Svizzera, quelli si sentiva. Io avevo una piccolo radio a galena che allora e sentivo appunto questi giornali radio che arrivavano dall’estero. Faceva anche piacere sentirli, perché speriamo che finisca [pause]. Mah!
EP: E nel ’44, quando c’è stata appunto la chiamata che c’accennava prima,
GD: Sì.
EP: cosa è successo alla classe, ai compagni di classe?
GD: Eh non lo so perché io poi ho ripreso andare a scuola nel, alla fine di ottobre, ho saltato qualche mese o due mesi. Quando sono andato dal preside che mi sono presentato il quale così così poi mi ha lasciato questa carta bollata e sono riuscito ad entrare. E niente, ci siamo visti, eh allora come va. Come quando per esempio adesso non ricordo esattamente l’anno, c’è stata la campagna contro gli ebrei, ecco. Diceva, ‘allora quest’anno, guardate che il compagno Finzi, il compagno Coen’, nomi tutti ebrei, ‘non saranno più in classe con voi perche sono stati dirottati verso la scuola’. Era una scuola verso il centro di Milano e sapevamo che erano stati invece portati, non portati via ma comunque ma facevano parte di questo gruppo di persone che erano malviste dal fascismo. Anche lì. [pause] Ecco quello che mi ricordo che qualche anno dopo, magari una decina d’anni, sono andato a vedere i miei compagni di scuola quali proprio avevo perso di vista e ho visto che la maggior parte, laureati tra l’altro eh, professor Coen, la Finzi, erano diventate delle personalità perché indubbiamente la cultura di quei ragazzi lì era molto superiore alla nostra, noi eravamo più bambocci.
EP: E sulle leggi razziali, appunto, si diceva qualcosa tra compagni, vi chiedevate che cosa stesse succedendo?
GD: Appunto non sapevamo per casa, non sapevamo che Finzi era ebreo, che Coen era ebreo, non lo sapevamo. Poi dai registri segnati si sapeva che, ma indubbiamente influiva negativamente su di noi ma per quale motivo, se c’era un motivo, uno non si rendeva conto per quale motivo veniva ritirato dalla scuola e portato da un’altra parte. Non è che ti dicessero ‘guardate, li portiamo là perché adesso sono ebrei, sono di religione contraria dalla nostra’. Tant’è vero che bisognava essere, non mi ricordo, si, ariani credo, no, infatti sui nostri documenti ti scrivevano addirittura ‘razza ariana’ [pause]. Che brutte cose.
EP: Riguardo ai rifugi antiaerei
GD [laughs]
EP: [laughs] lei ha avuto esperienza di immagino?
GD: Io ho avuto l’esperienza di Precotto, quando è stata bombardata la scuola. Il rifugio era fatti di puntelli di legno, poi al massimo c’erano delle travi che venivano con dei cunei, rinforzati. Però si direttamente com era successo a Gorla, non servono a niente. C’era qualche rifugio in fondo Via Brera poi lo stavano costruendo, ma è finito la guerra e il rifugio è rimasto ancora lì. Tant’è vero che è stato riutilizzato il ricovero da un mio amico architetto, il quale anzi l’ha comprato e li vendevano gratis e quasi perchè a lungo andare un blocco di cemento non so, due, tre metri di spessore, allora cosa ha fatto quello ha costruito sopra, così maggiore sicurezza [laughs]. Tant’è vero che c’è stata dopo un esplosione in quella casa perché c’era un tizio che caricava gli accendini nel sottoscala, è stata un esplosione, e la casa è rimasta su, fortunatamente. Per esempio anche, al centro di Milano, in Piazza, rifugio di Piazza del Duomo di Milano è stato costruito dalle imprese Morganti, le imprese che ci sono qua dietro, ma probabilmente non è neanche riuscito ad entrare in funzione, credo, bisogna andare a verificare le date. Perché siamo entrati impreparati, inutile fare tante storie. Lo stabilimento c’è la fatto c’è un rifugio anche quello qua dietro in Via Adriano esiste una specie di siluro che scende dove è stata fatta la Esselunga, ecco quello lì è un rifugio antiaereo. Allora devo dire adesso, figuriamoci. Ah sì, il proprietario lì è morto qualche anno fa mi sembra, l’ha tenuto come emblema della sua vita. Per cui non eravamo assolutamente preparati. [pause] Poi la pericolosità dei rifugi antiaerei perché se non c’era lo sbarramento, lo spostamento d’aria fanno crepare tutti quanti che sono dentro, eh. I muri molto sostenuti erano quelli della stazione centrale, perche lì indubbiamente ci sono i muri che sono. [pause] Insomma.
EP: E dentro i rifugi cosa facevate?
GD: Ah niente, c’è chi pregava, chi stava seduto, si portava le candele perché il giorno che manca l’energia elettrica o come frequentemente succedeva [pause]. Non so se c’è qualche altro episodio da raccontare, mah.
EP: Avevate paura?
GD: Eh beh certo ah.
EP: Come facevate per cercare di scongiurare la paura?
GD: Ma io ricordo per esempio che c’erano tutti i campi, come ho detto prima. Gli stessi operai della Marelli quando succedeva l’allarme correvano tutti nei campi si rifugiavano dentro i fossi che asciutti, no. C’era proprio la. Insomma siamo entrati in guerra impreparati [emphasis]. Sì però non vuol dire niente, anche se fossimo stati preparati la guerra è sempre una cosa che [pause] Ha annotato qualcos’altro?
EP: Volevo chiederle se la sua famiglia è stata coinvolta in qualche modo nella guerra. Se ha avuto dei parenti che sono partiti per il fronte.
GD: Beh, Qualcuno sì.
EP: Com’era vissuto in famiglia questo distacco?
GD: Non era qui, perche io sono, mio madre e mio padre, mio padre era di Milano, mia mamma di Agnadello, un paesino vicino appena fuori ,già in provincia di Cremona comunque, dove tra l’altro era la nostra cappella quando saremo morti andremo tutti li. Ma lì avevo avuto, mia mamma aveva avuto innanzitutto un fratello a ventun’anni è morto il giorno dopo la fine della Prima Guerra Mondiale, pensate un po’ che roba. È morto all’ospedale di Chioggia, per ferite riportate. Poi c’era un altro parente che in Russia è sparito, un altro in Libia, anche lì avuto, tra dispersi e morti ce ne sono un po’ da tutte le parti. E poi ci sono quelli che sono morti in Germania, i deportati in Germania. Io avevo una signora, non so se la conosce, la signora Murri, l’avete conosciuta, perché questa signora racconta molto volentieri per quanto perché ha avuto il papà che è stato deportato in Germania ed è morto, è morto là. Deve sentire raccontare quando hanno, sono riusciti ad individuare il treno, i vagoni, perché i vagoni erano piombati, li inseguivano con questi vagoni non so fino a dove sono arrivati, e parlavano attraverso le pareti chiuse di questa gente. Questa è una cosa molto molto interessante. Tra l’altro lo racconta molto volentieri alle scuole, il suo passato molto molto duro. Abita qui vicino tra l’altro.
EP: E riguardo appunto la fine della guerra.
GD: Sì.
EP: Lei si ricorda quando è stato dato l’annuncio che la guerra stava finendo, era finita, che cosa aveva fatto voi?
GD: Eh, beh certo.
EP: Cosa avete fatto voi? Quali emozioni c’erano? Che tipo di reazione c’è stata?
GD: È stata un emozione generale perché la prima volta quando sembrava che l’8 settembre del ’43 fosse finita la guerra perché lì, si era sentito il marescaglio Badoglio, ‘le nostre truppe reagiranno da qualsiasi parte provenga’, ma cosa vuol dire, tu invece di, ti metti li a sparare ai tedeschi, a parte che un è atto non giusto tra l’altro e tutta la gente in mezzo alla strada è finita la guerra, ah bene l’abbiam preso con un sollievo enorme perché. La stessa impressione che ho avuto io quando sono andato in Svizzera a vedere i viali illuminati e qui invece invece l’oscuramento. C’era addirittura un aereo che lo chiamavano Pippo che di notte veniva a mitragliare o a lanciare le bombette le case che erano illuminate, pensate un po’ che roba. Ma non abbiamo mai saputo se erano italiani oppure no, probabilmente erano italiani. Pippo l’avete sentito nominare anche voi? [laughs] E c’erano i fabbricati, i capi fabbricato, ogni zona aveva il proprio capo fabbricato, il quale veniva a dire se il rifugio era a posto, cosa veniva, i rifugi a posto. Sì i puntelli, vabbè. Certo che se la bomba ti arriva lì dentro non c’era niente da fare, non c’era niente.
EP: E cosa pensavate voi ragazzi di chi stava bombardando, all’epoca?
GD: Quello che si pensava. Se eravamo a scuola, cercavamo di uscire senza andare nel rifugio della scuola e incamminarci a piedi per arrivare a casa. Si sentiva proprio il desiderio di raggiungere la propria casa. Perché la casa sembrava che, raggiungendo la casa, basta siamo a posto. Il senso della casa era incredibile [pause].
EP: E ripensare oggi a quegli eventi, ripensare a chi bombardava, alle, diciamo, vicessitudini politiche della guerra, che opinione ne ha adesso, a distanza di tempo?
GD: Sui delitti politici, dice?
EP: Sulla situazione che proprio era del periodo di guerra, di chi bombardava, che opinione le è rimasta?
GD: Ah, beh, certo ricordo per esempio tutte le case che venivano bombardate, c’era scritto no, ‘casa distrutta dagli anglo-assassini’, anglo-assassini proprio, ma a caratteri cubitali. E però siamo noi che li abbiamo provocati, eh. [pause] Poi le informazioni non è che giravano come adesso, adesso l’informazione se succede un fatto, , non so, Porta Ticinese, si sa subito, allora si sapeva, mah sembra che abbia fatto, aveva bombardato, non so, una certa zona di Milano. Comunque abbiamo fatto cinque anni infiniti, noi abbiamo passato la nostra gioventù in tempo di guerra. Tra l’altro bisognava stare attenti a chi uscire di sera, non si poteva, c’era il coprifuoco. Ci si muoveva tutto così di nascosto, io avevo un amico qui al confine con Sesto e uscivamo di sera di nascosto, cercando di non farsi vedere da nessuno perché c’era sempre il pericolo di trovarsi o arrestato o pigliare qualche pallottata, qualche pallottola di arma da fuoco. [pause] Qualche, io ho sentito qualche, avevamo un inquilino che era reduce dalla Russia, anche lì è stata una cosa tremenda, a piedi, non so quanti chilometri, facevano tra i tutti, tutti quanti cercavano di arrivare in Italia. Un’altra sensazione quando sono arrivati i prigionieri dalla Germania per esempio. Sono arrivati i prigionieri, [pause] la gente che non si sapeva, allora c’era la corrsispondenza erano distribuiti ai militari dicevano ‘oh è arrivata posta oggi’, tutto, la, cartoline no. E io mi ricordo la corrispondenza con mio cugino che era in Iugoslavia, ecco anche lì, che poi ti sparavano, anche di là ti sparavano, mo’ [pause]
EP: Va bene, Signor Dell’Era, io la ringrazio moltissimo del contributo.
GD: Se c’è ancora qualcos’altro ma non, penso proprio di no. [pause] Certo che a pensare la guerra è la cosa peggiore che possa mettere al mondo un uomo, un politico, oh, per carità, lasciamo stare. Ma il fascismo si era comportato bene fino alla fine della guerra. Noi eravamo inquadrati, facevamo i Balilla, facevamo gli Avanguardisti, facevamo, c’era disciplina, ordine, c’era amor di patria , tutto quanto, in apparenza almeno. [pause] Nella nostra zona abitava, ha abitato, oh madonna come si chiama quello lì, Bertinotti, abitava nella via vicino a noi, come si chiama. Poi c’è stato fino alla guerra, c’era Vanoni che era venuto qui a fare una visita a Precotto, non so per quale motivo e giocava, e ha giocato a carte, a carte che non si poteva neanche, in una osteria di Precotto, e lì è stato, non so forse l’ha preso Scala nel suo, ci deve essere, non avevo Vanoni, che gioca a carte, che non si poteva. Invece, Io invece ero a scuola invece con Cossutta, ecco anche lì la [unclear] della gente. Cossutta era un fascistello eh. Quando andava a scuola allo Zucchi di Monza, teneva concerto, teneva il filo lui, ah che, aveva gli stivaletti scuri, perché faceva parte dei piccoli gerarchi fascisti. Poi cos’ha fatto, ribaltato, è diventato il più grande comunista d’italia, anche lì. E’ morto poco tempo fa. La metamorfosi della gente. I politici fanno presto a cambiare idea, eh, e’ difficile che siano coerenti tra di loro.
Allora di questo libro qui posso darglielo, va bene? Questo è importante. Qui c’è tutto eh, c’è scritto tutto di equipaggi, tipo di aereo, la formazione, la provenienza, per cui.
EP: Grazie mille.
GD: Niente.
EP: Grazie dei preziosi materiali e della sua testimonianza.
GD: Eh no, se posso essere utile, qualcosa.
EP: Lo sa. Grazie.
GD: Niente, di niente.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Dell’Era
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Dell’Era recollects daily life in wartime Milan, stressing inadequate war preparation. Describes a disciplined, regimented society which later turned to disillusionment. Recollects the declaration of war, the fall of the fascist regime and the end of the conflict. Contrasts with the situation in Switzerland, emphasising the lack of wartime black-out precautions there. Describes the 20 October 1944 bombing, its effects on the Gorla and Precotto primary schools, and his own role in the subsequent memorialisation of the event. Stresses the ineffectiveness of anti-aircraft fire, the different shelters and what life was like inside them. Mentions the impact of racial laws on his schoolmates. Recalls memories of Italian military internees in Germany. Describes wartime life: execution of partisans, pastimes of children, strafing of marshalling yards, antifascist propaganda, SS recruitment, graffiti on bombed buildings, bomb disposal units, Pippo, and curfew. Mentions fascists who changed camp after the war ended and became active public figures in other political parties. Describes briefly his post-war life working for oil and mining companies.
Creator
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Erica Picco
Date
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2017-02-25
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:50:44 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Switzerland--Zurich
Italy
Switzerland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-10
1943-09-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADell'EraG170225
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
animal
anti-aircraft fire
anti-Semitism
bomb disposal
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Pippo
propaganda
strafing
Waffen-SS
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/438/7769/PToccacieliG1701.1.jpg
a9e9d5366fe91066a0b8f49b8d4cc729
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/438/7769/AToccacieliG171210.2.mp3
b6c7a5b2341b0666d2685dd1cd5e607b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toccacieli, Guido
Guido Toccacieli
G Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Guido Toccacieli who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toccacieli, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare il signor Giulio Toccaceri per l’International Bomber Commande Centre Digital Archive. Siamo a Milano, il giorno 10 dicembre 2012. Grazie signor Guido per aver acconsentito a questa intervista. Come prima domanda,
GT: Dica.
AP: Vorrei chiederle, qual’è il ricordo più antico?
GT: Più antico?
AP: Potrebbe essere qualcosa, un ricordo famigliare. Chi erano i suoi genitori? I suoi fratelli? Dove viveva prima della guerra?
GT: Ah. Vabbè, io sono nato a Bergamo perché mio padre in quel tempo lavorava a un campo d’aviazione di Ponte San Pietro che era il campo della Caproni. Lui era specialista in altimetri e volava con gli Sva, [laughs] ancora, era aerei di molto prima della seconda guerra mondiale, della prima guerra mondiale. Erano gli aerei della prima guerra mondiale. Quindi io sono, fino allora sono stato a Bergamo, fino all’età di cinque anni e qualcosa. Poi arrivato a Milano a sei anni, quindi era il 1935. Io dal ’35 sono, abito a Milano. E fino al trenta, dunque la mia vita cos’è stata? Ragazzino che andavo a scuola fino al fatidico 1940 quando è scoppiata la guerra. Dunque avevo undici anni esatti e facevo la quinta elementare.
AP: Che cosa ricorda di quel giorno?
GT: Della mia vita scolastica?
AP: No, di quando è stata dichiarata la guerra.
GT: Ah, ehm,
AP: Si ricorda dov’era?
GT: Anche sì, ero a Milano, esattamente in Via Ingegnoli che è una zona di, ora dicono Città Studi, era allora una zona vicino a Lambrate, alla stazione di Lambrate e lì è cominciata la, diciamo la vita da, in guerra. Il problema della guerra in quella zona era quello che inizialmente, dunque noi abbiamo subito il primo bombardamento, se a lei questo può interessare, nel ’42. Il primo bombardamento nel ’42, dove, se posso aggiungere, poi [laughs]. La mia nuova moglie che, nuova moglie, moglie da sempre, abitava in una località vicino a me a Piazza Bacone e perse la casa anche lei ma questo io l’ho saputo dopo [laughs] quando ho conosciuto lei da fidanzata. Comunque hanno cominciato lì, il primo bombardamento nel 1942. Ma non penso che fossero, non so se, potevano essere francesi o inglesi in quel momento che c’hanno bombardato, questo non me lo ricordo nel ’42. Se erano già, erano già inglesi che sono arrivati, penso che siano, sì, sì, dovevano essere inglesi e quindi lì abbiamo cominciato ad avere dei morti, no? Nella zona di Milano, nella zona che avevano bombardato, anche perché la nostra zona era particolare. Aveva vicino uno scalo ferroviario, quindi alcune fabbriche abbastanza importanti tra queste l’Innocenti che produceva poi armi per la guerra. E quindi da lì abbiamo incominciato a soffrire e fare la vita di quelli che tutti i momenti, in caso di allarme, si finiva nei rifugi [laughs] che organizzavano naturalmente nelle case allora, erano ponteggi nelle cantine proprio per evitare che questi crolli venissero a discapito nostro, ecco. E questo era la, quello che io conosco, il momento della guerra, dello scoppio della guerra adesso, quindi avevo undici anni però eh, quando è scoppiata la guerra quindi. Quello, il nostro problema maggiore era quello e poi è cominciato il problema, vabbè, della alimentazione, mancanza di cose è stato quello che, è stato il mio inizio, la mia, diciamo, la prima giovinezza diciamo, undici anni, un adolescente che si è trovato così però personalmente non tanto. In seguito poi naturalmente cos’è stato le cose meno, i familiari meno importanti, cioè più complicate furono che mio fratello dovette andare militare. E da quel momento, vabbè era una cosa, non ha fatto la, non è andato in guerra, mio fratello è del 1921 quindi nel ’40 aveva diciannove anni, è andato a fare il servizio militare fino. Dunque nel ’40 quando è successo che il primo armistizio che c’è stato? Nel ’42 mi pare, no, ’44, ‘44. ’43, ecco nel ’43. Sì, nel ’43, dunque, avvenne che mio fratello tornò a casa. Tornato a casa e c’è stato pochissimo tempo perché e lì è cominciata subito la Repubblica Sociale Italiana. Mussolini che era stato poi catturato e liberato da Skorzeny, il famoso tedesco che nel Nido d’Aquila sulla, dov’era? Sul Gran Sasso, ha presente che fosse sul Gran Sasso allora. E da quello è incominciato il problema diciamo del fratello che è scappato, si è richiuso in casa ed era considerato renitente allora. Perché poi la Repubblica Sociale richiamò tutti i militari che avevano lasciato. E un bel giorno, tornando da scuola, ero giovanissimo, facevo le medie allora, tornando da scuola trovai la casa circondata dalle cosidette Brigate Nere che erano state create dal fascismo proprio che era, chiamiamola la polizia politica dei, del momento del regime fascista. Riuscirono a scoprirlo perché c’era stata una, come si dice, una spiata ecco. L’avevano saputo. Io sono arrivato a casa, ho trovato tutta questa cosa, mi hanno fermato ehm, e ho visto mio fratello prendere, caricare su una camionetta e portarlo via. S’immagina il dramma in quel momento nella casa. Quindi siamo arrivati al ’44, ’43. Poi mio fratello fu mandato, ricordo benissimo il tempo di guerra, fu mandato a Carcare. Carcare, Savona, sui colli di Cadibona, sì. Fino a un bel momento quello che era successo fino allora, bombardamenti non ne avevamo poi tanti avuti ehm, fino al ’43. E nel ’43, esatto, cominciarono i bombardamenti, quelli pesanti a Milano fatti dagli americani, penso, o forse dalle forze alleate. E lì subimmo dei bombardamenti molto pesanti. Agosto del ’43 è stato un macello, 15 agosto, 16 agosto a Milano è stato un disastro. Milano è sparita in parte, il centro di Milano in qualche via che non esiste ancora più adesso perché [unclear], è scomparsa e da allora, ecco cosa è successo. Da allora mio fratello riuscì a scappare lo stesso da Carcare e fu nascosto dai miei zii in questo periodo e lì andò bene perché poi non successe più niente. Mentre noi eravamo sfollati in un paesino vicino a Milano in una scuola elementare ed eravamo io, mio, mia sorella, sì, mio padre, mia madre. Mio padre faceva avanti indietro perché lavorava ancora a Milano papà e quindi siamo rimasti là fino a che la guerra è terminata. Ecco, altri episodi che diciamo riguardino me personalmente non ne ho, non ho subito cose. L’unica cosa che posso raccontare è stato bruttissima. Finita la guerra sono arrivati gli americani a Milano e io poi, come tutte le altre persone, siamo andati a vedere quella brutta faccenda di Mussolini impiccato, cioè impiccato, era già ucciso in Piazzale Loreto.
AP: Continui.
GT: Dunque, quella è stata una cosa che ci ha colpito non tanto per, ragazzo cosa avevo, ormai avevo quindici, dunque, ’45, sai [unclear] gli americani a liberarci, ecco quello è stata la causa più, a liberarci, sì, ormai avevano liberato tutta l’Italia, i tedeschi erano scappati. Ah, le cose, il brutto che succedeva allora erano le retate che facevano le Brigate Nere, questi della X Mas mi ricordo che c’era il famoso Osvaldo Valenti che era un attore, allora era molto in voga, e coso. Poi, Ah, ho assistito a, dopo la liberazione, a diverse fucilazioni di cosidetti fascisti di allora, io non potevo conoscere tutte queste cose, ero un po’ fuori dal, di questi fascisti che avevano, non so, li avevano fucilati proprio in mezzo alla strada così cioè. Ragazze rapate, pitturate di rosso sulla testa che camminavano in mezzo a discredito di tutti [laughs] che, ecco, queste cose che la guerra mi ha lasciato dentro. I bombardamenti sì, è la cosa più paurosa anche perché un, devo dire un ragazzo non è che si spaventasse per questo. No, questo no, non ho subito terrore per i bombardamenti, no, non ho provato paura. Ecco questo è quanto posso dire del mio periodo diciamo dal ’40 al ’45, quando è stata la liberazione, insomma.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima di un rifugio.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole descrivermelo?
GT: Ah.
AP: Come era fatto?
GT: Il rifugio dove, di casa mia?
AP: Esatto.
GT: Cantina. Cantina, paletti di supporto di legno, basta. Tutto lì. Non c’erano cose particolari. Niente assolutamente. Si andava in cantina sperando che reggesse [laughs]. La casa non era grande d’accordo però e dentro, con le donne che magari pregavano [laughs] come in queste cose e i bombardamenti che arrivavano perché l’allarme arrivava molto spesso. Ah, poi nell’ultimo periodo, prima che finisse la cosa, arrivava un certo Pippo. Era chiamato un aereo che non so di che provenienza fosse, se inglese, francese, americano. Arrivava su Milano, sganciava una bomba e basta, e andava e questo è stato per un po’ di volte. Infatti lo chiamavamo Pippo. ‘Arriva Pippo, arriva Pippo’. Ecco [laughs] questo è un ricordo di quella, del bombardamento.
AP: Si ricorda come la gente viveva
GT: Ah poi, il bombardamento, sì, d’accordo posso aggiungere adesso mano a mano che mi ricordo, l’ultimo quello terribile è stato fatto nella zona di Gorla dove è caduto su una scuola. Sono cadute le bombe su una scuola, hanno fatto molti molti morti per i bambini, questo tra i bambini di scuola proprio. Quelle sono state le cose che hanno colpito di più diciamo il fatto che si bombardasse un po’ così e non certo. Gorla è sempre vicino alla stazione centrale, si può immaginare che magari ci fossero però eravamo già verso la fine della guerra. Non so se è stato il colpo finale che volevano darci per, dare a noi, dare allo stato italiano, a Mussolini soprattutto perché allora eravamo isolati dall’Italia noi eh, siamo stati. I tedeschi avevano preso il potere anche su Milano quindi, c’è la guerra, si era formato il Vallo lì in Toscana, Lazio, cos’era, come si chiamava?
AP: La Linea Gotica?
GT: La Linea Gotica forse sì. No, non era la Linea Gotica, forse eh? Dunque, dunque, era la Linea Gotica, possibile. Montecassino, c’era la Gotica, sì, Gotica [laughs]. Gotica, sì.
AP: Questo mi dà l’opportunità di una domanda.
GT: Sì.
AP: Qual’era la vostra percezione? Lei ha parlato di essere, di sentirsi isolato. Avevate la sensazione che le bombe erano dirette a voi? Allo stato italiano? Ai tedeschi? Come vedevate la cosa allora?
GT: Beh, ma, dunque, no, no, [unclear] lo stato italiano senz’altro. Senz’altro. Eravamo alleati dei tedeschi quindi, sì, sì, vabbè. No, avevamo la sensazione che si creasse proprio il panico, proprio di creare qualcosa tra, che, non so, probabilmente che i civili si ribellassero magari a tutto questo stato di cose. Perché ci bombardavano? Perchè venivano a bombardare le popolazioni? Poi abbiamo saputo pian pianino di cose ancora peggiori perché se pensiamo poi cosa è successo a Dresda [laughs], capisci? Quindi era proprio creare questo stato di, forse di sollevazione contro la guerra, certo, non eravamo certo un alleato comodo nè forte per i tedeschi, e quindi presero in mano il potere loro. Insomma praticamente certamente bombardavano anche noi, ma forse per eliminare, più qualche cosa, togliere diciamo una forza, farci smettere per togliere una forza ai tedeschi.
AP: Vorrei riportarla a quegli anni.
GT: Sì.
AP: Sempre tenendo presente quello che mi ha raccontato adesso.
GT: Sì.
AP: Lei si ricorda conversazioni di adulti a proposito dell’essere bombardati eccetera? Che cosa diceva la gente, ad esempio, in negozio, per strada?
GT: [sighs] Praticamente, no, la gente cominciava ad essere un po’ stufa della guerra, cioè stufa della guerra, non si mangiava eh, questo era il problema, quindi. Ma per un certo momento intendiamoci all’inizio li abbiamo odiati questi bombardamenti perché ci bombardavano. Sì, siamo in guerra, d’accordo però. Quello che ritenevamo forse noi della guerra era farla direttamente sì, ma non, non inserendo le persone, le popolazioni civili in questo coso, forse non era il caso. E l’avevamo chiamato questa era la cosa del terrore, proprio creare un terrore in modo tale che qualcuno si, qualcuno che contava si risvegliasse, somma sai [unclear] è stato, forse è stato quello che poi è successo ma [unclear]. Per cui poi il regime fascista è caduto perché qualcuno si era mosso in quel senso lì o forse perché, forse non aveva visto l’interesse particolare di fare una guerra assieme alla Germania non so, [unclear]. Poi io, sai, io sono sempre vissuto in una famiglia che diciamo. Papà ha avuto sempre delle, delle idee socialiste e quindi eravamo un po’ contro questo, poi accettando tante cose perché devo dire noi siamo stati, all’inizio siamo stati anche abbastanza bene. Ai ragazzi non dispiaceva anche andare a fare le adunate, si divertivano, cioè questo era quello che aveva lasciato un pochettino il regime fascista sulla mentalità delle persone. C’erano, alcune cose insomma, c’erano, erano fatte bene insomma perché difendevano i lavoratori, posto di lavoro, cioè tante cose che avevano, bè, questo era un po’, diciamo il fondo fascista di Mussolini, socialista di Mussolini che poi certamente non è, non è proliferato in quelle cose però è quello. Lo stato però, non eravamo con, all’inizio non eravamo proprio tanto convinti che fosse brutto, è scoppiata, sì la guerra è sempre brutta però, mah, poteva anche starci insomma ecco.
AP: E suo padre.
GT: Io non capivo proprio molto bene quella, non c’era quella comunicazione che c’è adesso, quindi era tutto. Dopo ci siamo accorti che era tutta propaganda quindi abbiamo subito un po’, continuato a subire quello che era, diciamo l’inseminazione data da vari anni di fascismo, dal 1922, e vabbè che non era mica tanto, ’29 sono nato io quindi [laughs].
AP: Suo padre come le ha spiegato la guerra, se gliel’ha spiegata?
GT: [sighs] Mio papà, dunque, la guerra lui non l’ha fatta. Lui era specializzato quindi la prima guerra mondiale papà non l’ha fatta, la ’15-’18 quindi. Lui come specialista ha sempre lavorato nelle aziende che fornivano materiale per la guerra. Quindi la guerra direttamente lui l’ha vissuta attraverso il lavoro che faceva, non è che. Ma all’inizio non, posso dirle che non è che fosse contrario, forse aveva, qualche cosa era rimasto di una educazione socialista quindi non era propenso, però neanche proprio completamente alieno devo dire, questo che un ricordo che possa avere io di papà.
AP: La cosa è cambiata quando sono cadute le prime bombe sui civili?
GT: Eh certo, eh certo, eh certo.
AP: Mi racconti questo passaggio.
GT: Eh, le bombe sui civili proprio hanno cambiato un po’ la mentalità delle persone insomma. Si sono proprio un po’ rivoltate dentro, no, in quello che si sentiva dire, ‘ma questi ci bombardano’. Sì, eh, un certo astio per forza, ci bombardavano loro, non potevamo avere però la colpa, la colpa di che cosa? Nostra che abbiamo fatto la guerra. Nostra che ci siamo, ci siamo messi in questa situazione, eh, questi erano i discorsi che facevano loro. Poi è stato anche poi il dramma che non eravamo, sapevamo di non essere, anche noi ragazzi, di non essere all’altezza. Prima di tutto perché ci si misurava con la capacità, diciamo, di fare la guerra dei tedeschi. Noi non l’avevamo questa capacità. Ehm, visto poi quello che era successo e che avevano riportato dei reduci dalla Grecia disastri, cose, l’organizzazione proprio italiana non fatta proprio, assolutamente una cosa così. E quindi, ma abbiamo cominciato a dire che avevamo sbagliato insomma noi italiani a fare la guerra, ad accettare questa, questa guerra così. La punizione, vabbè forse era troppo forte, i bombardarci e morire, eravamo in guerra, vabbè. Abbiamo detto: ‘E’ così, cosa vuoi, non potevano fare niente’. Dovevamo subire e abbiamo subito.
AP: Provi se, se non le dispiace, a ricordare questo senso di impotenza, l’idea di ricevere bombe dal cielo e non poter fare nulla. Provi a ricordare cosa provava quando era bambino.
GT: Eh, difficile. [pauses] Niente. Per me capitava come una, come una, qualche cosa, una disgrazia che doveva venire, qualche cosa. Un qualcosa che non me la, contro il quale non potevo fare niente dentro di me, non potevo fare niente, non potevo. Ma neanche, però neanche il desiderio di mettermi lì, da ragazzo, con un cannone a sparare agli aerei che scendevano, no, no, no. Però un po’ effettivamente bisogna dire una cosa, siccome questi bombardamenti all’inizio quegli inglesi noi li odiavamo un po’ questi inglesi, eh, pensavamo che fossero un pochettino. Non sapevamo cosa poi succedeva quindi questo poi, questo è un paragone che si, non si può fare perché dopo l’abbiamo visto e quindi dopo ci hanno aperto le cose. Non sapevamo cosa subivano gli inglesi, gli inglesi a Londra con le bombe che, Hitler mandava le V2. Eh, potevamo dire, però è una rivalsa contro quello che, ma non c’era, non c’era, non c’era una volontà politica che, aiutasse a pensare una cosa piuttosto che l’altra, eravamo un po’ allo sbando insomma, non eravamo vabbè, subivamo un po’ questo, del partito, queste cose che ti tenevano un pochettino proprio al di fuori di tutte queste cose. Odiavano questo, quello, bisogna odiarli, sì, famoso manifesto, il nemico ti ascolta [laughs], famoso manifesto, grandioso che faceva. Ridevamo perché dicevamo, la lana Churchill si ritira, dicevamo, la lana Churchill perché si ritira, taci il nemico ti ascolta, avevamo dentro tutte queste cose che venivano dalla preparazione che aveva fatto il partito fascista sul popolo italiano. Quindi abbiamo un po’ fatto fatica proprio a uscire fuori dalla cosa. La guerra all’inizio sì, vabbè c’è la guerra, è inevitabile, dicevano. A un ragazzo però, sapere cos’era la guerra, era stata un po’, era un po’ una cosa, non facile da, sì, da accettare sì forse, forse un gioco più grande di noi o forse volevamo partecipare [laughs], da ragazzi, sa, non è semplice, non eravamo adulti capaci di interpretare tutte queste cose che poi sono successe. Molto difficile.
AP: A proposito dell’interpretazione.
GT: Sì.
AP: Mi ha accennato ai bombardamenti dell’agosto 1943.
GT: ‘43, 15 e 16 agosto.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualche cosa di più?
GT: Vediamo.
AP: Provi a tornare a quegli anni, a quei mesi.
GT: ’43, sì fino allora non avevamo subito delle grandi cose a Milano, onestamente. Bombardamento che ci ricordavamo di più era quello di, era dell’inizio della guerra nel ’42. Ppi bombardamenti veri e propri non ne abbiamo avuti a raffica come sono venuti lì con questi enormi aerei che arrivavano a onde [makes a droning noise] e forse no. Sono stati i primi che hanno proprio creato proprio un panico assoluto nella gente che c’era. Proprio è stato, sono stati quelli del ’43. Milano ricorda solo, sì del ’43.
AP: Si ricorda le sue emozioni? Che cosa provava lei?
GT: Gliel’ho detto,
AP: Estate, estate del ’43.
GT: Non paura, chissà perché, personalmente come, non ho provato paura.
AP: Le altre persone attorno a lei, della sua famiglia?
GT: Certo, evidentemente, sì, certo. Vabbè, c’erano, [laughs], erano prese, erano preoccupate per i figli tant’è vero che c’è stata il famoso esodo da Milano, tutti cercavano di andarsene via. Ma sì, un paio di notti siamo andati a dormire nei prati perché bombardavano, sapevamo ehm. No paura non ne ho provato, paura vedendo gli altri che avevano paura, a me sembrava che avessero troppa paura. Però non ho provato nè paura nè, neanche senso di odio, sì, bombardavano e vabbè, è la guerra. Ecco, c’era una certa fatalità nel pensare quelle cose lì, una certa fatalità, infatti non ho riportato nessun trauma del fatto di aver fatto, il trauma che si poteva riportare. Ricordare la fame, ma sì, la ricordo ma non è neanche diciamo una causa di queste cose, non è neanche una cosa. Io personalmente non ho portato dei traumi per queste cose.
AP: Mi ha parlato di Gorla prima. Gorla.
GT: Gorla, sì, sì.
AP: La bomba sulla scuola.
GT: Questo ci ha fatto male, sì.
AP: Si ricorda qualcosa all’epoca? Come è stata annunciata?
GT: Niente, dunque, era stata annunciata che, niente, un bombardamento è avvenuto, hanno buttato giù, no, una solita cosa, hanno fatto un raid, no, come si chiama, aereo ha colpito Gorla. Presumo che dovessero colpire la stazione centrale, ecco, questo lo dico io .Abbiamo tutti pensato che la zona, essendo la stazione centrale un certo posto di smistamento per truppe cose, penso non sia stato un bombardamento però tipo, come si dice, come ho detto, annunciato prima tipo terroristico [emphasises] ecco, no, eravamo già un po’ più verso la fine di questo [unclear]. Io la ritengo, non so, un errore proprio grave di, o forse un ultimo rigurgito. Eh beh ma una bomba poteva capitare, poteva spostarsi di cinquecento metri. Non penso che fosse stato un obiettivo ecco, è caduta ma però Gorla come dico era stata la stazione centrale ecco [laughs] perciò c’era un obiettivo. Come le bombe che sono cadute nella mia zona l’obiettivo c’era, c’era lo smistamento di Lambrate quindi era un nodo ferroviario.
AP: Mi ha parlato prima della Innocenti.
GT: Sì, c’era la Innocenti lì eh. Quindi, lo smistamento, venivano fuori le armi dall’Innocenti e subito partivano con lo smistamento ferroviario.
AP: Quindi.
GT: Ecco, una cosa che non abbiamo, che ho dimenticato, ecco questo. Qualche, c’è stato un momento, adesso l’anno però eravamo già un po’ più avanti, dal 40, i mitragliamenti ai treni.
AP: Me ne parli.
GT: Ecco, questa è stata [unclear] quindi proprio c’era una perché i treni erano, in quel momento non c’erano, non treni militari, erano treni civili e questi caccia che arrivavano, non so se fossero americani, inglesi, non, mitragliavano i treni. Questo è stato proprio brutto perché queste cose le ho riviste magari in tanti film dove si vede che mitragliano proprio i treni e la gente scappa fuori. Questo è stata una cosa, ecco, quello lì. Ecco, c’erano questi contrasti che, non capivo quelle cose lì proprio per creare terrore soprattutto, eh, guardi, che hanno mitragliavano i treni. Non erano convogli militari quelli che ho conosciuto, quelli ho saputo io quindi.
AP: Se dovesse spiegarmi la differenza tra mitragliare un treno e bombardare, come la spiegherebbe?
GT: Dunque, la spiegazione che posso dare oggi. Bombardare, bombardare, mitragliare un treno dipende: è un obiettivo militare o mitragliare un treno così solo per mitragliare un treno, pensando che. Bombardare obiettivi militari o una città per fare terrore? Milano è stata bombardata per fare terrore. Non è stata bombardata per, perché c’erano cose particolari, non era. Differenza, vorrei capirla io, come viene, queste pattuglie che vanno su due caccia [unclear] che vanno lì, mitragliano un treno scoprendo che c’è, magari non sapendo che è un treno civile si bombarda, si mitraglia un treno. A Milano, nella zona intorno a Milano, ma che obiettivo è? Per me è per fare terrore, per far cessare, proprio per fare rimuovere la gente, ‘basta adesso, noi non ne possiamo più’, per me. Però strategicamente, non sono uno stratega.
AP: E Pippo come c’entra in tutto questo?
GT: Come?
AP: Pippo. Lei ha ricordato Pippo. L’aereo.
GT: Ah Pippo anche questo qui, che signi, ecco, il significato. Terrore. Può arrivare un bombardamento, crea panico, perché una bombettina non ha mai fatto, ma non credo che sia mai successo un morto per Pippo. Com’era? Come mai arriva questo aereo? Ma sempre per tenere in allarme, cioè, per provocare questa ansia nella gente che si muova, che faccia qualche cosa, che da dentro, si muova da dentro per far finire queste cose. Eh, solo quello, solo quello. Quella è una strategia che. Altro [unclear]
AP: A distanza di settant’anni, è cambiato la sua opinione verso chi la bombardava o chi la mitragliava? Lei pensa che ci sia una differenza tra quello che pensava da bambino e quello che pensa lei adesso?
GT: No, penso che sia stato proprio una cosa per creare proprio il terrore. Per creare terrore e far smettere la gente di, cioè provocare questa, dall’interno questa, questa rivolta, no, contro, contro chi dei nostri faceva la guerra, farla smettere, insomma, farla cessare, farla cessare.
AP: Lei mi ha accennato a sua moglie che ha perso la casa.
GT: Sì.
AP: Questa cosa vi ha unito in qualche maniera? Avete passato le stesse esperienze? Vi siete sentiti uniti? Ne avete parlato?
GT: No, no, no, in questo no perché, beh ma lì è stata un’altra tragedia, lei era una bambina, aveva nove anni, otto anni, nove anni. Hanno perso la casa perché è caduta a Milano in Piazza Bacone e la sua casa è crollata e lei si è salvata perché era in rifugio con i parenti [laughs], con e basta. Da lì è stata un po’ una tragedia per lei dopo, quello che ha subito lei ma era piccola.
AP: Si ricorda cosa era successo?
GT: Sì, dopo lei ha dovuto, eh, hanno perso tutto la casa, hanno dovuto andare presso dei parenti, insomma c’è stata tutta una concomitanza di cose negative per lei, per la sua infanzia voglio dire eccetera eccetera. Questo sì però è lei che, quello che poi ha provato lei io non lo so [laughs].
AP: Prima mi ha parlato di Mussolini e di altri a Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Vuole raccontarmi qualcosa di più?
GT: Beh, noi ci siamo trovati, dunque, a Piazzale Loreto perché ad un certo momento, è abbastanza vicino alla zona dove abito quindi [unclear] scesi in strada [unclear], siamo corsi tutti a Piazzale Loreto e abbiamo visto quello spettacolo abnorme, spettacolo orribile. Da ragazzo non l’ho subito però mi ha dato fastidio subito quindi Mussolini, Petacci, Bombacci, c’era un, beh, c’erano questi gerarchi fascisti che io adesso non ricordo mentalmente chi è che era appeso. La cosa più brutta che ho provato. Dunque poi a un certo momento è arrivato un camion, dopo le spiego perché è arrivato il camion, è arrivato un camion e hanno staccato, hanno incominciato a staccare. Quando sono arrivato io la Petacci era ancora con le gonne giù, cioè al contrario e quindi era praticamente nuda o seminuda. Dunque il camion. Su c’era un deposito di benzina, li avevano attaccati tutti sul deposito di benzina alla base di questo striscione di metallo che c’era su e hanno incominciato a tagliare la corda e li hanno calati a uno a uno. Quando sono arrivati a Mussolini, hanno tagliato la corda di netto, non li hanno presi, l’hanno, l’hanno fatto cadere sul camion apposta. E’ stato una roba, è stato una roba pazzesca, la gente che andava a sputare addosso, a calci, urlando cose inenarrabili, basta, dopo [unclear] questa era, una corrida, con tutti i matador [laughs]. Glielo dico visto adesso, con tutti i matador che sputavano, urlavano, imprecavano ancora contro un’ammasso lì poverino, una cosa, poverino dico perché in quel momento poteva fare, ma non mi ha fatto pena in quel momento. E’ stato troppo la ribellione [unclear] perché lì non è più una ribellione perché tu sei nero io sono rosso, tu sei verde, no, no, è una ribellione contro qualcuno che in fondo la guerra aveva fatto morire i figli, mariti eccetera e quindi una guerra che non, che forse l’italiano non ha sentito insomma, l’ha sentito attraverso la, esclusivamente la politica, la forza del fascismo nel fare propaganda, però questo da ragazzo io l’ho capito dopo eh. Il momento io ho vissuto delle cose basta poi il giudizio allora io non potevo darlo, guardavo e basta. Ora.
AP: Resti per favore
GT: Sì.
AP: Con le emozioni di quel momento
GT: Sì.
AP: A Piazzale Loreto.
GT: Sì.
AP: Si ricorda le grida? Si ricorda che cosa dicevano?
GT: Le devo ripetere?
AP: Se se la sente.
GT: Non credo che siano, ‘Porco! Sei un porco! Hann fatto bene! Bastardo!’ E cose del genere. Ne hanno dette di tutti i colori, adesso degli epiteti che non potevano [unclear]. ‘Ti sputo addosso, in faccia, hai fatto morire mio figlio!’ e tutte cose del genere. ‘Porco te e quella puttana della, della tua Petacci!’. [sighs] Poi un’altra cosa che mi ricordo, beh ma quello non [unclear], ho visto catturare Starace, no, che poi l’hann fucilato lì vicino. Dunque sì, in quel momento è sempre Piazzale Loreto, nella zona e a un certo momento proprio, sì, l’avevano catturato, era Achille Starace, segretario del Partito Fascista Italiano. Achille Starace a un certo momento, non so, lo avevano scoperto non so dove l’avessero preso, questo non lo so, lo portarono lì, lo fecero passare davanti a tutto questo spettacolo, lo portarono lì di fronte e [unclear] gli spararono, lo fucilarono lì, poco distante da dove era, il suo capo era appeso. Quello sì. [unclear] ma sono tutte cose che non si sono, diciamo, proprio susseguite in un modo così da una cosa all’altra, che poi ho visto anche lì come le ho detto prima ho visto uccidere dei, in Piazzale Aspromonte ho visto uccidere un certo, allora. Lo chiamavano Pasqualone, era il ras della zona del partito fascista di, di Lambrate, era proprio segretario del Partito Fascista lui, era un, omone, poi andava sempre con la pistola infilata per fare vedere, sempre camicia nera e lì l’ho visto fucilare anche lui poverino in Piazza Aspromonte, portato lì. E’ sempre brutto, è brutto, sono cose che, uno è difficile credere che sia o non sia, hann messo lì e [unclear] niente. Niente, sono cose che mi ricordo della guerra dal ’40 al ’45 poi sono arrivati gli americani. Ah, poi ho fatto un viaggio su un carro armato che arrivava da Via Padova. Arrivava da Via Padova che è una zona [laughs] est di Milano e a un certo momento mi, questi bei americani che salutavano [unclear], ero lì con diverse persone, un ragazzo, [unclear] un americano mi ha tirato su un carro armato, sono arrivato, avrò fatto trecento o quattrocento metri sul carro armato [laughs], ecco. Allora erano cose che poi non so, sì, in questo caso si ricordano perché giustamente come avete voi [unclear] elencato, si ricordano poco poco, è difficile proprio però perché [unclear] risalendo magari ce ne saranno state anche, non eclatanti no perché quelle me le ricordo di più. Insomma, la cattura di mio fratello è stata eclatante, l’uccisione di Mussolini eclatante nel senso della visione di un ragazzo. Quindici anni, salire su un carro armato americano ecco [laughs]
AP: Mi ha parlato di Osvaldo Valenti.
GT: Sì, Osvaldo Valenti, era della X Mas lui, sì, sì, sì. Ah beh sì, Osvaldo Valenti, quello lo conoscevamo come attore, no? Perché anzi, allora non c’era la televisione [laughs]. Lui e la Luisa Ferida che era la sua amante diciamo o sua moglie, non so cosa fosse. E c’era la famosa Villa Triste a San Siro e lì torturavano i partigiani però, ecco, quello sì, quello me lo ricordo. Poi c’erano le Brigate Nere in Via Rovello. Le Brigate Nere c’erano, sì. Ah, una volta, ecco, in tempo di guerra, verso l’ultimo periodo di guerra, mio fratello era tornato da militare e quando era poi scappato la seconda volta, tornato da militare, no, la prima volta, sì, no, la seconda volta perché poi è andato a fare il militare con i repubblichini e poi è scappato e ha portato a casa il fucile. Un giorno mio padre che se adesso fosse qui forse poverino, ha rischiato con noi, perché? Dunque, amico di un, in quel momento già c’erano i partigiani che aleggiavano ancora in città, no? Qualcuno che era dei partiti. Mio padre conosceva queste persone da vecchio povero socialista e un giorno mi dice: ‘Ma qui abbiamo un fucile in casa. Non preoccupatevi, lo diamo, do io, so io a chi darlo’. ‘E vabbè, ma come facciamo? Chi esce con un fucile?’. Di sera non si poteva, coprifuoco [laughs]. Allora ha inventato una cosa. Ha preso il tappeto che avevamo nella camera e ha messo dentro il fucile. Ha avvolto il tappeto e ha detto a mia sorella e a me di portarlo in un certo posto. Cosa che abbiamo fatto. Pensa il rischio che abbiamo corso due ragazzi con il tappeto con dentro un’arma di guerra, con i partigiani che c’erano in giro e i fascisti che cercavano queste cose. Quello me lo ricordo ma non l’ho mica digerita bene con mio padre che c’ha mandato a fare questo lavoro [laughs], per portare un’arma di guerra, fucile poi praticamente figuriamoci. Ecco questa è una cosa che mi sono ricordato di quelle cose lì poi. Periodo di partigiani non tanto perché, cioè sapevo che ce n’erano, che li prendevano, li catturavano e poi naturalmente li hanno fucilati diversi nella mia zona, li hanno fucilati al Campo Giuriati. E lì è stato una brutta cosa e abitavano lì, c’è ancora la targa adesso di questi partigiani insomma, fucilati al Campo Giuriati. Della guerra, del dopoguerra posso raccontare di più [laughs]. Allora incominciamo dalle bande.
AP: Si ricorda.
GT: Della nera.
AP: Si ricorda la sirena?
GT: La sirena, oh, mamma mia! [mimics the high-pitched prolonged sound of the alarm] eccola e poi quando era finite invece suonava [mimics a different alarm sound] continuava a suonare a lungo, questa suonava a [unclear] e l’altra invece dava un segnale di fine allarme. Perché c’era il preallarme, l’allarme e il fine allarme. Sì, questo sì e anche quello, quello era. Ah, bombardamenti, ‘arrivano, arrivano, arrivano!’, poi magari falso allarme. Che poi di contraerea a Milano non ce n’era, non sparavano neanche un colpo, qualcuno così poi, quindi, sì, le sirene, l’allarme, però dopo. Evidentemente ci siamo abituati anche a quello eh. L’allarme c’è però pazienza [laughs], speriamo che non bombardino qui ecco eh. Dopo un certo momento penso che tutti poi in guerra si rassegnino eh, come una cosa inevitabile ma ormai dopo è venuta, è la guerra, l’hanno fatta, ci hanno obbligato.
AP: E’ stato una bellissima intervista.
GT: Ma, non credo [laughs]
AP: Siamo molto contenti, io e i miei colleghi di aver fatto questa bellissima chiacchierata.
GT: La ringrazio.
AP: E’ stato un piacere parlare con lei. Se non ricorda nient’altro, non vuole aggiungere nient’altro, io concluderei.
GT: Cerco, cerco poi. Uno non è mai preparato a queste cose e poi, ma guardi che. No, non è perché ma uno magari soffre non vuole parlarne, no, no, no, gliel’ho detto, non ho. Non credo di aver subito degli shock perché ho subito la guerra da civile ho subito, da civile, da ragazzzo ho subito la guerra, non credo. Ho sofferto solo un po’ la fame, quello mi dava fastidio, non c’era niente da mangiare, a Milano poi assolutamente, i bollini, andare a prendere il pane con i bollini, con, quelle cose, razionato. E’ così dai [laughs].
AP: Va bene, signor Giulio.
GT: Ma io ringrazio lei.
AP: E’ stata una bellissima esperienza.
GT: Anche per me.
AP: E concludo.
GT: C’era una caserma. Quando io prima ho detto che arrivando a casa avevo visto la casa circondata dalle Brigate Nere e mio fratello fu portato, perché era renitente, era scappato nel ’43, mi pare, no? ’43 è venuto Badoglio.
AP: Sì.
GT: Quando venne Badoglio, ecco, e lo portarono nella caserma di Corso Italia. Corso Italia c’era la caserma dove mettevano dentro tutti quelli che avevano recuperato, scoperto che erano renitenti e li avevano portati lì. E lì li avevano fatto firmare poi l’adesione alla RSI. ‘O ti mandiamo in campo di concentramento in Germani o vieni’. E lui Firmò per la RSI perché e l’unica persona che ha potuto andarlo a visitare è stata mia sorella che è andata a visitare appunto mio fratello prima che lo arruolassero nella Repubblica Sociale Italiana e questo è stato uno dei, diciamo delle cose che mi ha colpito di più come ragazzo diciamo come ragazzo [unclear].
UI: Quanti anni aveva il suo parente?
GT: Eh?
UI: Quanti anni aveva sua sorella?
GT: Mia sorella è dunque del ’24, aveva cinque anni più di me. Quindi io avevo
UI: [unclear]
GT: Nel ’43. Aveva cinque anni più di me. Era, sì, sì, quello è. Quella è una cosa che non ti inventi adesso perché, no, no, non ho nominato la persona a chi abbiamo portato il fucile perché era partigiano [unclear]
AP: Va bene.
GT: No assolutamente, nomi diciamo di persone che
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Toccacieli
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Toccaceri remembers his wartime experiences as a schoolboy in Milan: the day war broke out, food shortages, his father working at an airfield near Bergamo, train strafing, basements used as makeshift shelters, being evacuated outside Milan with his family, fascist militia round-ups, tortures at ‘Villa Triste’, and disposing his brother’s rifle wrapped in a carpet. Remembers the 1942 and 1943 bombings, describes the Gorla bombing and elaborates on his legitimacy. Gives a first-hand account of Mussolini’s corpse being desecrated at Piazzale Loreto and the capture of a prominent fascist leader. Tells of his brother, a draft-dodger, captured by fascist militiamen. Describes a summary of executions of fascists, and female collaborators head-shaven and paraded in shame at the end of the war. Mentions a sense of helplessness, resignation towards the regime, which changed after the bombing escalated, and describes the attacks as the just retribution for starting the war and siding with Hitler.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-10
Format
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00:50:49 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AToccacieliG171210
PToccacieliG1701
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1943-08
1944-10-20
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
bombing of Milan (20 October 1944)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/457/8025/ABendzkoHW180328.2.mp3
3f34e0663e156576dbd332ffeca3a9b0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bendzko, Hans-Walter
H-W Bendzko
Hans-Walter Bendzko
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Hans-Walter Bendzko who recollects his wartime experiences in Berlin.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bendzko, HW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: Con l’intervista? Vado? Also, bevor wir anfangen, bitte ich Sie folgende Fragen zu beantworten, damit wir sicher sind, dass dieses Interview nach Ihren Wünschen sowie den Bedingungen unserer Sponsoren gemäß registriert wird. Sind Sie damit einverstanden, dass dieses Interview als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt wird, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann? Ja oder nein?
HB: Ja.
PS: Danke. Dass dieses Interview unter einer nichtkommerziellen Creative Commons Attributionslizenz, die mit den Buchstaben CC-BY-NC, das heisst, dass sie nicht für kommerzielle zwecke benutzt werden darf, also dass dieses Interview öffentlich zugänglich gemacht wird? Ja oder nein?
HB: Ja.
PS: Danke. Dass Sie als Author des Interview identifiziert werden? Ja oder nein?
HB: Det habe ich nicht verstanden.
PS: Dass Sie der Urheber des Interviews, der Author des Interviews.
HB: Ach so, ja. Ja.
PS: Ja oder nein? Ja?
HB: Ja.
PS: Danke. Sind Sie bereit, der Universität das Copyright Ihres Beitrags zur Verfügung zu stellen, damit es zu jedem Zweck verwendet wird.
HB: Copyright?
PS: Ja, warten Sie. Damit es zu jedem Zweck verwendet werden kann, aber sind Sie auch dessen bewußt, dass es nicht Ihren moralischen Anspruch beeinträchtigen wird, als Author des Interviews identifiziert zu werden, dem Copyright, Design und Patentsgesetz 1988 gemäss? Ja oder nein?
HB: Bisschen kompliziert aber ich sag mal ja.
PS: Danke. Ehm, ich bitte Sie jetzt um fünf Sekunden Schweigen,
HB: Ja?
PS: Weil es der Techniker verlangt.
HB: Ja. [coughs]
PS: Also, dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Digital Archive geführt. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der Befragte ist Herr Hans-Walter Bendzko. Heute ist der 28 März 2018. Wir danken Herrn Bendzko für dieses Interview. Dieses Interview wird Teil des International Bomber Command Digital Archive, das an der Universität Lincoln angesiedelt und vom Heritage Lottery Fund finanziert wird. Also, Herr Bendzko, konnen Sie mir ertsmal etwas von Ihrer Jugend erzählen und von Ihrem früheren Leben, wo Sie geboren und aufgewachsen sind, Ihre Familie, Ihr Elternhaus.
HB: Ja, bin 1930 in Groß-Berlin geboren. War erst bei meinen Eltern. Als sie sich haben schieden lassen bin in ein Kinderheim gekommen bis 1945 und dann war ich bei meinen Grosseltern und habe Autoschlosser gelernt.
PS: Können Sie mir ein bisschen mehr von Ihren Eltern erzählen, welchen Beruf sie hatten, und so, in welcher Umgebung Sie eben geboren und aufgewachsen sind?
HB: Soweit ich mich erinnere, war mein Vater Buchhalter bei Rheinmetall-Borsig und meine Mutter war Hausfrau.
PS: Wenn Ihnen etwas einfällt, können Sie ruhig frei mir was erzählen.
HB: Ja, müssten mir mal ein Ziel sagen.
PS: Ja, wie war, wie war die, sagen wir die Stimmung so zu Hause während der Nazi-Zeit? Was haben Sie so mitbekommen als Kind?
HB: Tja, was hat man mitgekriegt? Eigentlich ein normales Leben. Mit zehn Jahren bin ich ins Jungvolk gekommen und, wiegesagt, dann war ich im Kinderheim Wannsee. Dann waren wir evakuiert wegen der Bombenangriffe und sind dann so im März glaub ich zurückgekommen nach Berlin. Dann bin ich zu meinen Grosseltern gekommen und habe da meine Lehre angefangen.
PS: Wie war die Zeit im Kinderheim?
HB: Die war eigentlich ganz gut da [unclear], man hat sich gut um uns gekümmert. Und wiegesagt da wir evakuiert waren beim Dorf da bei Spremberg hatten wir hier diese Angriffe, die Bombenangriffe nicht so miterlebt. Hab lediglich einmal, aber det waren Amerikanische Flugzeuge so am Tage fliegen sehen und habe mich gewundert, dass von der Deutschen Luftabwehr nischt passierte, weder Flak noch Jäger und hab dann so bei, sag mal 67 Bomben aufgehört zu zählen.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich noch an etwas über die Bombenangriffe und wie Sie das so erlebt haben?
HB: Also da draussen, bei Spremberg, bei der Evakuierung haben wir weiter nichts erlebt. Und als wir dann nach Berlin zurückkamen, [unclear], da war eigentlich mehr der Angriff der Roten Armee auf Berlin in der Erinnerung. [laughs]
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an Ihre Zeit als Kind, was Sie gespielt haben, und an andere Kinder oder so? Haben Sie irgendwelche Erinnerungen an Ihre Kind, Zeit als Kind?
HB: Nee, eigentlich wüsst ich [unclear], im Kinderheim haben wir immer zusammen gespielt, aber wat det nun noch war, das ist alles gelöscht. Ich gehe nun auf die 88 zu und da ist det eigentlich alles gelöscht.
PS: Haben Sie auch Zeit in, haben Sie auch Zeit in Luftschutzkeller verbracht oder?
HB: Luftschutzkeller, ja, zum Kriegsende, sind wir immer in Keller gegangen, weil ja die Rote Arme immer dichter kam.
PS: Wo waren diese Luftschutzkeller?
HB: Na, wir haben gewohnt in Zehlendorf, Onkel Toms‘ Hütte, Eschershauser Weg.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich ein bisschen an die Umgebung und die Stimmung die damals herrschte, auch unter Kindern?
HB: Wir Kinder haben alles als normal hingenommen, so lange wie die [unclear] funktionierten, ja? Hat sich jeder nach Hause auf’n Weg gemacht und ist in Keller gegangen, mit Eltern, oder Grosseltern oder wo eben grade wohnte.
PS: Und wie waren diese Keller?
HB: Normale Keller, so wie sie heute auch sind, bloss dass sie zum Teil, aber da bin ich mir so unsicher weil ich da viel drüber gelesen hab, die dann so mit Balken abgestützt waren.
PS: Für wie viele Leute war da Platz, also?
HB: Wartense mal, im Keller sassen immer auf zwei [unclear], waren vier, acht Wohnungen, also sagen wir mal so um zwanzig Menschen sassen da immer in einem Keller.
PS: Waren da mehr ältere Menschen, jüngere, Frauen, Kinder?
HB: Na ja, genau, die älteren, die anderen waren ja zur Wehrmacht eingezogen und dann die Frauen und Kinder.
PS: Haben Sie noch Erinnerungen an das Kinderheim, in dem Sie waren?
HB: Ja, das war in Wannsee, Alsenstrasse 12, so eine kleine Villa. Wir waren ungefähr 25 Kinder, hatten eine Köchin, und drei oder vier Tanten und eine Heimleiterin.
PS: Wenn Ihnen noch etwas einfällt, können Sie ruhig frei weitersprechen.
HB: Und in welcher Richtung jetzt noch [unclear]?
PS: Ja noch, etwas anderes eben über das Kinderheim, Erinnerungen oder alles was Ihnen so jetzt einfällt.
HB: Wie gesagt, wir waren ja [clears throat] zwei Jahre evakuiert bei Spremberg und wurden dann nachts von dem Autobus abgeholt und nach Wannsee gebracht. Und sind da denn die letzten Tage zur Schule gegangen.
PS: Können Sie mir noch den Namen wiederholen, wo Sie evakuiert waren?
HB: Der Ort hiess [unclear] bei Spremberg.
PS: Ich habe jetzt den letzten Namen nicht so richtig mitbekommen.
HB: Spremberg?
PS: Ja.
HB: S, p, r, e, m, berg, Spremberg.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich, wie Sie die Zeit verbrachten im Kinderheim?
HB: Wie bitte?
PS: Wie verbrachten Sie Ihre Zeit im Kinderheim? Haben Sie irgendwelche besondere Ereignisse, die Ihnen jetzt einfallen?
HB: Nö, normaler Tagesablauf. Aufstehen, waschen, Zähneputzen, anziehen, frühstücken, dann haben wir so viel wat gespielt. Dann wieder Mittagessen, Mittagsruhe, dann wieder Freizeit, und abends schnell ins Bett gegangen.
PS: Wie war das Kinderheim organisiert, also, wie waren die Zimmer, die Säle?
HB: Dat war ein städisches Kinderheim und wir waren vier Jungs in einem Vierbettzimmer, im ersten Stock.
PS: Bekammt Ihr, habt Ihr irgendetwas mitbekommen vom dem, was zu der Zeit passierte?
HB: Was passierte? Na ja ausser, als Besonderheiten die Fliegeralarme wo man in den Keller musste, war normales Leben, für Kinder im Kinderheim.
PS: Redeten die Erwachsenen im Kinderheim über den Krieg oder?
HB: Nee, wüsste ich, wüsste ich eigentlich nichts. Zumindest kann ich mich nicht erinnern. Vielleicht dass hier irgendwie, als Stalingrad war, det grosse Ding, dass sie da, darüber gesprochen haben, unsere Erzieherin, aber ich glaube wir Kinder haben noch nicht mal Zeitungen gelesen.
PS: Und welche Erinnungen haben Sie an die Bombenangriffe?
HB: Na ja, dass wir im Trainingsanzug zu liegen hatten da in der Nähe vom Bett und sowie dann die Sirenen kamen, Trainingsanzug an und runter in den Keller.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich noch an den?
HB: Wobei, jetzt fällt mir noch ein, 1940 muss es gewesen sein, als die ersten Englischen Nachtangriffe anfingen, da ist eine Stabbrandbombe in ein Zimmer gefallen und die hatte hinten eine Hülse, die wurde abgerissen wennse durch die Dachziegel schlug und fing dann an zu brennen und die ist in ein Kinderbett gefallen und hat da gebrannt. Und auf‘m Nebengrundstück war so eine SHD, die Sicherheits und Hilfsdiensttruppe, die kamen denn und haben dann da gelöscht.
PS: Und das war im Kinderheim.
HB: Das war im Kinderheim, Alsenstrasse 12, in Berlin-Wannsee.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich noch an den Laut der Sirenen, and das Heulen der Sirenen?
HB: Ja, ja, öfter wenn man so Filme sieht, original.
PS: Haben Sie noch andere Eindrücke an die, Erinnerungen an die Englischen Nachtangriffe?
HB: Nee, eigentlich nicht, wir waren ja im Keller. Raus durfte man nicht und gucken. Heim wurde auch weiter nicht getroffen. Viel mehr könnte ich nicht sagen.
PS: Als Sie zurückkamen nach Berlin, was haben Sie vorgefunden? Haben Sie irgendwelche Eindrücke an die Zeit?
HB: Da warte mal, bin dann zu meinen Grosseltern gekommen, in Onkel Toms Hütte und dann in die Lehre gegangen [unclear] musste ich ja eine halbe Stunde laufen, bis dann die Rote Armee kam.
PS: Können Sie mir das noch ein bisschen besser beschreiben?
HB: Den Endkampf, ja?
PS: Ja, die Zeit des Ende des Krieges.
HB: Ja. Ja, die kamen immer dichter und soweit ich mich erinnere, war dann auf einmal Schluss, da hat wohl der Ort Zehlendorf kapituliert und dann zog gegenüber von unseren Wohnblock dieser Eschershauser Weghäuser waren da immer drei Blöcke auf jeder Strassenseite. Da wurde denn gegenüber der Block geräumt, da zogen dann die Sowjetischen Soldaten ein, stellten ihre Fahrzeuge schön ordentlich auf die Rasenfläche und wir Kinder haben dann natürlich mit den Soldaten Kontakt aufgenommen. Da gab’s ja keine Wasserleitung und keine Elektro, kein Gas mehr und dann haben wir gegenüber, da war die Offiziersküche, haben wir dann für den Koch immer Wasser geholt von der Pumpe. Und von den dann haben wir immer, [unclear] mit dem Essen fertig waren, haben wir dann immer so ein Liter Eimer voll Essen gekriegt. [unclear] mit nach Hause genommen haben zu meinen Grosseltern, die waren ursprünglich aus Ostpreussen und haben sich gar nicht rausgetraut.
PS: Haben Sie noch andere Erinnerungen, von denen Sie mir erzählen möchten?
HB: Tja, [unclear], so im Moment weiter nicht, dass wir ausserdem gut mit den ausgekommen sind bis die abgezogen sind, nö, wüsst ich nicht weiter.
PS: Wo wohnten Ihre Grosseltern?
HB: Bitte?
PS: Wo wohnten Ihre Grosseltern?
HB: In Zehlendorf, Onkel Toms Hütte, Eschershauser Weg 27.
PS: Sie erzählten mir vorher von einer Brandbombe, die ins Kinderheim, also eingebrochen ist, eingefallen.
HB: Ja, ja.
PS: Es ist nur einmal passiert?
HB: Ja, ja, gleich am Anfang, 1940. Die Engländer hatten die irgendwie so warscheinlich aus Bündeln rausgeworfen. Dann brannte überall, das waren so Waldgrundstücke, da lagen die überall und da sah man dann so die Flammen von den Phosphor [unclear].
PS: Also es waren Phosphorbomben.
HB: Ja, soweit ich als Laie sagen kann, Termit war nicht, Termit war wohl greller.
PS: Hat es damals, damals hat es keine Opfer gegeben, oder?
HB: Tote oder Verwundete nicht, nee, waren ja alle im Keller.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich ob Sie damals, bei dieser Brandbombe, Gedanken gemacht haben, wer die Bomben abgeworfen hat?
HB: [laughs] War ja klar, nachts kamen die Engländer und am Tag die Amerikaner.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich welche Gefühle Sie damals gegenüber diesen, welche Gefühle Sie damals hatten?
HB: Da war Krieg und jeder hoffte, wir auch, [unclear] dass wir den Krieg gewinnen.
PS: Und haben Sie auch mit den anderen Kinder irgendwie ein bisschen darüber gesprochen? Ich weiss, dass Sie sehr klein waren immerhin.
HB: Nee, nee, nee, nee.
PS: Wieviele Bombenangriffe haben Sie dann miterlebt?
HB: Oh, das kann ich nicht zählen. Ob dann nun jede Nacht oder so, nee, da bin ich überfragt, beim besten Willen, das wüsste ich nicht mehr.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an den Tag, an dem der Krieg zu Ende war?
HB: Im Berlin, war Kapitulation am zweiten Mai. Die Russen, die Soldaten, die haben dann da gefeiert und für uns war natürlich auch beruhigend, dass nun zu Ende war mit Bombenangriffen und so.
PS: Sie sagten, Sie sind auch im Jungvolk gewesen. Wie erinnern Sie sich an die Zeit?
HB: Ja. Ja, das war da immer in Wannsee, da war ich im Kinderheim, das war denn Sonnabend oder Sonntag, [unclear] unseren Dienst hatten.
PS: Fällt Ihnen noch etwas ein zu dieser Zeit?
HB: Jetzt hier Jungvolkdienst oder was?
PS: Ja.
HB: Na ja, das war diese übliche Form militärischer Ausbildung, würde ich heute sagen, antreten, rechts rum, links rum, marschieren, diesen ganzen Quatsch.
PS: Und wie fanden Sie das als Kind?
HB: Das war interessant, war eine Abwechslung, ja? Jeder wollte ja Soldat werden.
PS: Hatten Sie dann auch Unterricht zu der Zeit?
HB: Ja, wie einen Schulunterricht, ja klar, volles Programm.
PS: Würden Sie gerne noch etwas hinzufügen zu Ihren Erfahrungen mit den Bombenangriffen?
HB: Nee, wüsste ich nicht mehr.
PS: Können Sie mir etwas noch zu der ersten Nachkriegszeit, also zu der Nachkriegszeit erzählen?
HB: Die erste Nachkriegszeit, mit der Ernährung war [unclear] Arbeiterkarte hatte, meine Grosseltern hatten ja nur die Hungerkarte, [unclear] meine Lehrwerkstadt wo ich gelernt hab. Dann haben wir dann erst mit den Kraftfahrern, die Sowjetischen, also [unclear] Autos repariert, kriegten wir da auch Verpfelgung von Russen, bis denn die Amerikaner einzogen.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an irgendetwas, an die Zeit, als die Amerikaner eingezogen sind?
HB: Die haben erst mal da deutsche Häuser beschlagnahmt und die Leute da rausgesetzt, mussten dann woanders untergebracht werden bis sie denn für die Amerikaner eigene Siedlungen gebaut haben.
PS: Es gab wenig zu essen zu der Zeit.
HB: Ja, ja, war eine ziemlich hungrige Sache da.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich was Sie noch so zu Essen hatten?
HB: Na ja, was so auf Karten zugeteilt wurde. Brot, Margarine, irgendwelche Wurstsorten, Kartoffeln.
PS: Ich wollte Sie dann noch fragen, was denken Sie heute von den Bombenangriffen von damals? Wie sehen Sie das heute?
HB: Tja, war Krieg, mussteste so hinnehmen. Wir haben bombardiert, die anderen haben bombardiert, jeder wollte den Krieg gewinnen.
PS: Fällt Ihnen noch irgendetwas ein, dass Sie mir vielleicht erzählen möchten, entweder zu der Zeit der Evakuierung oder als Sie wieder in Berlin waren? Irgendwelche Kindheitserinnerungen?
HB: Mehr wüsste ich wirklich nicht.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an irgendwelche, irgendeinen Geruch oder an einen Laut oder etwas, dass Ihnen so geblieben ist von der Zeit?
HB: Neine, keine Erinnerungen mehr.
PS: Gut, ich würde dann jetzt aufhören.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Hans-Walter Bendzko
Description
An account of the resource
Hans-Walter Bendzko reminisces about his wartime experiences as a young boy in Berlin, before being evacuated. Describes his time at Wannsee, being properly looked after while surviving one of the Berlin bombings. Mentions incendiaries falling into a room without hurting anyone. Stresses how children saw war as part of everyday life. Recollects wartime episodes: his time in the Deutsches Jungvolk (described as a departure from daily routine), food shortages, working class ration cards, and the first British night operations in 1940. Mentions the sight of aircraft and wonders why they weren’t fired on by anti-aircraft fire or fighters. Describes the last days of war: seeking refuge from the advancing Red Army in a shelter, the fall of Berlin, contacts with the Russian soldiers, bartering water for food.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Schulze
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-28
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:30:30 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABendzkoHW180328
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
shelter
Sicherheits- und Hilfsdienst
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/PMercerH1701.1.jpg
ca1e16ce2e7f535857111b45957c7c12
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/AMercerH170519.2.mp3
550b969b4cd74761e6a94a8e44b23fde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mercer, Harold
H Mercer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Harold Mercer (1922 - 2020). He served as a driver before remustering as an air gunner. He flew operations as an air gunner with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-19
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Mercer, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harold Mercer at his home on the 19th of May 2017. Get going. Alright, I’ll just make sure that’s working. So, just start, if I could just ask you, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HM: I was working for North Shields corporated society as a milk man, driving horse and cart round the streets, delivering milk
DK: So, what years would that be?
HM: That was 1942
DK: 1942. So, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was that your decision or?
HM: Well, it was, yes, it was my decision, I had volunteered at the beginning of the year 1942, and I have gone up to Edinburgh for an interview, I wanted to be in aircrew then but over to you I wasn’t contemplated for at the time and they sent me on the reserve list so I was called up in April 1942
DK: 1942, yeah
HM: On call up, I suppose you want me to continue,
DK: Yes, please, yeah
HM: On call up, I was posted to Weston-super-Mare for what was generally called square-bashing, so I did two months in Weston-super-Mare, while I was there, I did the usual things, marching up and down the promenade, learning how to the march, how to do the drills and everything
DK: How did you feel about all that, was that something you liked or?
HM: To be quite honest, I quite enjoyed it for one reason, I had a little corporal [unclear] who was determined to be a Sir, so I had to call him sir anyway, but being sort of raw recruits and not used to Air Force or Army life or anything really like that, we just generally called him Sir, behind his back I think he was called other things, but that was the Air Force lads, but we got on very well together, there was, the squadron was about thirty, I would imagine? I’ve got a photograph there actually, about thirty of us in a squad and while I was there, I did the usual square-bashing and the odd sentry duty and only one wood march I ever did anyway, the reason for that was I was a musician and I played the euphonium in a brass band, so once the corporal got to know that, he said, oh, I got a job for you, I went to see the sergeant in charge of the band at the time and he said, welcome, he says, it’s just what we need, so I joined the band. Doing that meant that we didn’t do so many parades or anything other than practice in the Weston-super-Mare pavilion there, so we did a lot of practice and of course the drill sergeant said, you know, he was quite upset because we were missing a lot of parades but on the other hand, we had to give concerts every night in the pavilion, so we did a lot of rehearsals during the day so we couldn’t be drilling and rehearsing as musicians, the musicians apparently had the first choice of our time, so I spent two months [unclear] at Weston-super-Mare and we were billeting in private houses in those days, about three to, three to a room, you know, use your little beds that you have, but I quite enjoyed the time there and then when it came to leaving super-Mare, I was destined to be a [unclear], transport driver, so I eventually arrived up, lasted up in the Blackpool School of Motoring, learning all about the cars and lorries, buses, the whole works and
DK: Had you actually driven before then
HM. Yes, I
DK: Or did they teach you to drive?
HM: I happened, actually I happened to be a driver because my brother had a car
DK: Right
HM: And he taught me to drive and I’ve driven ever since I was seventeen. But anyway, I still had to go through the usual school, learning about the combustion engines, and touring around Blackpool area, learning how to drive these cars, busses, lorries, whatever the corporal wanted that day
DK: So you were taught not only how to drive these vehicles, also how to maintain them, and the engines, and
HM: Yeah, we had to be, I rather was, were mechanics, we had to learn all about the combustion engine and be able to trace faults on the car, on the motor, on the whatever, the transport was the intention, so we had to learn all about that, I think that, I’m not sure if [unclear] but, yes, we had to learn both sides, both driving and positive the engine world, you know, so, I say I was there about two months, as actually there was the British School of Motoring that we were under and I had a lady instructor and she says, oh, you are fine enough, no problem with you, but when it came to passing the test, I couldn’t pass the test first time, you know, and I said to this lady, I’ll never pass the test because I’m far too nervous when it comes to anybody sitting beside me, but I know I can drive perfectly and I won’t hurt anybody, so anyway, after the second test, this lady instructor told the examiner exactly what I was done, he says, this airman is perfectly capable of driving anything you care to put on any he’ll drive properly, so the examiner took notice of this, so I passed.
DK: Right
HM: And that was the end of my time in Blackpool, we had off duty time so we passed most of our time at the YM I think, at the YMCA, playing billiards or whatever, snooker, well, you know anything that was coming up. One thing I do remember, going back to Weston-super-Mare, is every Sunday the Air Force had to attend morning service at the church and of course the job of the band was to lead them to the church so they led us to the church, we led them to the church, but the church wouldn’t let us in with our instruments so the corporal says, come back in an hour’s time, I want you here back in an hour’s time, so what we did, popped down the end of the road, went in a café, had a cup of tea so we missed the church service, so that was, I suppose, that’s one of the advantages of being in the brass, being a musician and then we just marched them back to the quarters again and dismissed for the day, had a day off, you know, that was just a little thing [unclear]
DK: Have you been in the band then?
HM: It was, yeah, if you were a musician, it was pretty good because you, various times you were called away to do a concert for somebody and we did, we did concerts, I would say every night, somewhere in the area, so,
DK: Was it something that you stuck to afterwards? Is it something that you’ve done all your life? Continued to play?
HM: Oh yes, I’d been a musician from eight years old I was taught, all my family are salvationers and I was naturally, we were all brought up to be salvationists of as I moved up in airs I was transferred from a junior band to the senior band and then from there I went to the Air Force, so I had a good solid grounding for playing in the band
DK: So just going back to when you passed your test for the motor transport
HM: Yeah
DK: What could you drive after passing that test? Was it the big trucks or?
HM: Yes, thirty hundred weight trucks
DK: You could drive thirty hundred weight trucks
HM: Yeah
DK: And coaches or anything like that?
HM: Yes, we had coaches as well, you had to be able to drive practically anything really, [unclear], yes, you had to be able to drive any vehicle that was to hand and what job was wanted to be done, so it was very interesting and [unclear] if I would say those two months I had
DK: So after those two months, were you posted to a squadron then or to an airfield?
HM: No, from there I went to Bridgnorth for general training, that was like building all of the Air Force discipline and duties and ranks and you know, the whole works of the Air Force you had to go through the, through a whole book as well as doing various drills, nothing like Weston-super-Mare, just ordinary drills, learning how to behave in public, behave at a table, sort of, was like officer training, you had to be able to do, holding a knife and fork and all the various equipment, depending what meal you were at, so it started from breakfast right away through to being at a dinner, black tie and everything sort of thing
DK: And how did you find all of that, was it interesting or?
HM: Well, it was very, I think, I mean, I wasn’t used to that sort of life, for the low station time was hard before that so I was used to very hard life, bringing up my mother had to go to work at four o’clock in the morning, to make enough money to feed us, perhaps people these days don’t understand what the Twenties and Thirties were like, you see, I’m going back a long way and then of course I was brought up by very disciplined parents, very loving but you did nothing on a Sunday except having your food, you couldn’t read anything, you couldn’t buy anything, you know, days were hard in those, today people haven’t got any idea what those days were like, the Thirties especially were, men were short of money, in fact it was the war that made a big change, a very big change in life, in my life anyway, I got sort of out into the world, I’d never been away from home, till I joined the Air Force, you know, I travelled up to Edinburgh, well, Edinburgh as far as I was concerned was Australia, could’ve been, because of us [unclear] altogether, I was born up in North Shields and I lived there, never went out at all, you know people cannot believe, these days they accept travelling all over the world,
DK: It’s normal, isn’t it, all just popping up all over Europe
HM: Oh, I’m gonna have a holiday, oh, where are we going this year? Oh, we’re going to Spain, we’re going all over, well, at my time you were lucky if you got as far as your own town really, that was as far as you got, anyway, back to Blackpool, and had a load of work [unclear] there, we’re billeted again in private houses, about, usually about three in a room depending from the size of the building and off duty we were going to [unclear] and just to, you know, spare time and of course we went to the Tower Ballroom I’ll come to that part later on but we went to the Tower Ballroom but we couldn’t dance just for the music and get together with the boys, get a little bit chatty, I thoroughly enjoyed learning all about motors and that came in handy in life later on as I advanced over the Air Force actually so from actually I think it was about two months approximately I haven’t got the exact date, well, I have the exact date somewhere, but I would say about two months and then we were posted again now I went to Bridgnorth which I was telling I was saying learning all about the Air Force discipline and ranks and how to behave in public and how to dine out and all this sort of thing as well as, pigeon, clay pigeon shooting,
DK: Oh right.
HM: We did a bit of clay pigeon shooting at Bridgnorth so there again, I think was, I think we were there three months, were quite a long time training at Bridgnorth, from Bridgnorth I was posted to Kidbrooke in London and a balloon barrage squadron where I was
DK: Whereabouts in London, sorry? Kilbourn?
HM: It was Kidbrooke
DK: Kidbrooke, right, Kidbrooke.
HM: Kidbrooke, 901 Squadron
DK: Right
HM: It was Kidbrooke, I was posted there as qualified motor driver and from Kidbrooke, Kidbrooke was the headquarters of the London Balloon Command
DK: Right, ok.
HM: And I was posted to Plumstead, which was a satellite of that squadron and from that site we supplied
DK: So the balloons, this is the barrage balloons,
HM: The big barrage balloons
DK: Yeah, right.
HM: The barrage balloons, with oxygen, you know, hydrogen, and from Plumstead we supplied the balloon sites with food every day and with any equipment we were transported over to they were only on WAAF sites, mostly WAAF sites, around my area anyway, I think I had three sites to go to every day, keep them topped up and most of the sites were WAAF, under the WAAF command, so I was there quite a long time then, while I was there off-duty times, I was stationed at the headquarters at Plumstead, when we were off-duty we used to pop out to Eltham Palace dancing, we couldn’t dance, I couldn’t dance, that’s for sure, we weren’t allowed to do things like that, anyway, funnily enough, we happened to have a corporal instructor, he said, I can dance in Civvy Street, I’ve danced in Civvy Street, I teach dancing, so we said, well, come on, you’ll have to show us what to do, you know, to go to the girls, when were nights off, so he taught us all about dancing,
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HM: You can imagine, twenty airmen in a barrack room learning how to dance, was a bit of a laugh, but we learned the basics anyway, and then when we went out with the WAAFs, we’d get the tram out to Eltham and go to Eltham Palace to dance and when we were dancing, well, you could call it dancing [laughs], because the WAAFs, you know, and the locals would pick the WAAFs up, and I didn’t, I couldn’t get away with dancing, but never mind, the WAAFs used to come up, he said, Harry, if I don’t like the man I am dancing with, we just buzz him off, cause in those days we had what we called the excuse me dances, the chap and told him he had to move on, so that was my job when I went to the dances with the girls, they was coming on and you know, the girls winked as they went past so I would just get up and tap them on the shoulder away would go and so I had a good job dancing with the WAAFs, I went round once stopped and sat and it would happen again, you know, but it was like entertainment as far as we were concerned, and it got you again from the hard fact that there was the war [unclear] all the time I mean, many a time would have an air raid but would have shut down and such, you know [unclear] we could get but we got plenty of time off there, the only thing that they didn’t have was any place where we could get a shower or a bath or whatever you needed, so we had tickets to go into Woolwich and took the baths in Woolwich, we’d go and have a bath there and we’re taken in and then from there we would go to the pictures and put the night in, so that’s how we did a lot of entertainment down in London apart from the air raid traffic [unclear]. Mind you, the air raids, the weather on London and [unclear] was very foggy, smog
DK: Smog
HM: Absolutely thick, you could hardly see your hand in front of you, and in fact one day I was driving a just this light weight van and I got lost, I couldn’t see where I was going, I ended up on a greens somewhere and had to go in the van, just walk where I though the edge might be, I found the edge and then sort of well [unclear] somewhere I know but I no idea
DK: But the headlights were covered up as well, weren’t they?
HM: The headlights were, yeah, the headlights, you might as well not have them on, because they were shaded with little slots in the front and the light they gave off was minimal, no good enough, and you had, it was all in your head, you knew the route, so
DK: I imagine there must have been a few accidents
HM: Oh, there was a few accidents, but you couldn’t avoid it because you couldn’t see where you were going, cause so thick, mind you, we never moved any heavy equipment through the night
DK: Right
HM: Such as the hydrogen bottles, you know, they had, what you called, Scammells, American things, huge motors, but the length of the [unclear] really, and you had all your bottles on the back and then a trailer behind that, so, you know, you got a good length
DK: Did you drive any of those, the Scammells?
HM: I drove the Scammells, excuse me
DK: I’ll just pause that.
HM: So
DK: So, you actually drove the Scammells, then, did you?
HM: I drove, yeah, I drove the Scammells and with the trailer to the WAAF site
DK: And what would be your loads then, what normally were your loads then that you were carrying?
HM: Well, that I remember, that’d probably be about, about fifteen to twenty hydrogen bottles on the Scammell itself, with the same number on the trailer, and you took those to the site, drop them off as you are going round, I can’t exactly remember how many we dropped off at the time, anyway we would obviously drop them off for the [unclear] and pick up others to take back
DK: The empty ones you’d take back
HM: The empty ones we’d take back and then they would be collected by the foreman who provided them in the first place
DK: And refilled
HM: Refilled and then we would do that every day, really, that was something that we did every day and besides the odd little jobs around the site and we had one motorcyclist at place, like a sort of dispatch, dispatch right I would say, and of course there was
DK: So, did he escort you sometimes then?
HM: Yes, he would try and sort of lead the way but you know, you had to use a lot of your own instinct as well, you know, to keep on top of things, we had one or two WAAF drivers, not so many, had one or two of them, it was mostly men at that time,
DK: And were the women driving the big trucks as well?
HM: They never drove the big trucks, no, that was left to the men, the big trucks and busses, that was for the men there, so anyway I finished my time in Bridgnorth, at Plumstead, I went to Bridgnorth, I told you about Bridgnorth, and from Bridgnorth I was posted to Blackpool
DK: Right, yeah.
HM: I went to Blackpool, and I was only there about a fortnight and I was moved up to Northern Ireland, from there I went to Northern Ireland, to Eglinton
DK: Eglinton
HM: In Northern Ireland, well, actually the headquarters, I was at the headquarters first, actually to be honest, I worked from headquarters all the time, which was 5019 Squadron
DK: 5019
HM: 5019
DK: Alright
HM: Funnily enough, I can’t find it in the books anywhere, but I’ve got a photograph with the, of the group, you know
DK: Oh, right, ok.
HM: With the, with the whole squadron
DK: Right
HM: And we were the ones with peaky cups. You know, everybody else had foddered caps, we had a proper peaky cap. Fortunately when I was at Belfast, I got the one job that was going as driver to the officer in charge of the engineering and electrical works all over Ireland, so my job was to drive him to whatever airfield or maintenance area that needed his attention
DK: And what sort of vehicle were you driving him in then?
HM: A Hillman car
DK: Right
HM: One was one in a Hillman car to wherever was necessary, if so, to be honest I’ve been all over Northern Ireland,
DK: So, was he an officer then?
HM: Flight lieutenant
DK: Flight lieutenant, right
HM: Yes, he was Flight Lieutenant and he was in charge of electrical and mechanical vehicles and sites all over Northern Ireland
DK: Right
HM: So I have been nearly in every town in Northern Ireland you can think of, I spent some time in Ballykelly, the thing was, when I was with him, going around all these places, we’d call it aerodrome and he would say, I’m gonna be here three days, driver, just please yourself of what you do, I’m here and if anybody stops you, just refer them to me,
DK: Right
HM: So, every time I went anywhere, I was just on me own, wandering about, going for a coffee or whatever, for a cup of tea, you know
DK: So you got to know Northern Ireland quite well, then
HM: I got to know Northern Ireland upside down, yeah, went to Belfast, way along the top, Ballykelly was a big aerodrome and further along was Coleraine River Valley and Eglinton, which was also a naval station, they didn’t have any planes of course, it was just the station, but he had to look after the maintenance of the works on every station, you see, so, Eglinton came under his edict [unclear] as well, and I went into Londonderry quite a bit when I was off duty, and we used to go to a Roman Catholic tearoom which they had, you know, for Air Force, well, for forces members, so I often went there and had a cup of tea and a wad as they called it and the made us very welcome, at night [unclear] went to the cinema which was only a tin hut, so you can imagine what it was like when I rained, you couldn’t hear anything on because of the thundering and the rain but it was light entertainment I quite enjoyed it because I was more or less free-lance for nine months in Northern Ireland, the one thing that comes to mind, one night the chef put something on whatever it was, I think it was, I don’t know if it was [unclear] or whatever it was, anyway it was quite hot, and through the night, oh, everybody was ill, everybody on the camp was ill, you just had to go outside, you know, there was nothing else to do for it, you know, everybody was in the same boat, so, but it was a really desperate situation, I can tell you, caused many a laughing once we got over the problem, you know, the whole site, the whole camp, upside down, you know, with people dashing outside,
DK: Did the chef get into trouble over that?
HM: [laughs] I would imagine he did, I’ve never heard the end of the story of that but I imagine he would get a severe tipping off from the officer in charge [laughs], of the camp, you know, but it was just one of those things that all, it’s all in life, isn’t it? You know, so, that was it, Northern Ireland, anyway while I was at Northern Ireland after about nine months, a memo came round to anyone resting becoming an air gunner, you know, so I thought, oh damn, I’d done nine months here, I said, we’d be doing nothing really, you know, I always part of the war, and haven’t had me done, somebody had to do it, so anyway, I volunteered and I was accepted for aircrew
DK: Can you remember which year this would have been or
HM: That would have been 194
DK: 3?
HM: No, no, it was much later than that, was it ’43? That would be ’43, end of ‘43
DK: So, end of ’43, ‘44
HM: Yeah, [unclear] the end of ’43 or begin of ’44, was round that period, yes, we’re in 1944
DK: Right
HM: 1944, I definitely went and as you went on to London in those days and in Lord’s Cricket Ground was the
DK: The aircrew
HM: The aircrew selection so I went to the selection there, passed that, no [unclear] I was accepted to become an air gunner, of course you had a severe medical to become an aircrew, you had to be perfect, you know, eyesight, hearing, you know, there was no, if you had the slightest thing wrong with you, you didn’t pass, so anyway I passed all the tests, then we got about seven jabs for various things in case we were sent abroad, all at once you know [unclear] and the lads were going bang! Bang! [mimics a banging noise] so the tallest fellows it seemed to affect them more than us little fellows, you know, and they, they were going down, flat all with all these jabs, I mean, obviously they came round after a few minutes but they knocked them all out [unclear] so they took them a day so for everybody to get settled in so when I went there we just did the usual sports activities and training you know, what you call it? Physics, physical fitness
DK: Yep, yeah, [unclear]
HM: We did a lot of that, so we were perfectly fit when we left there, funnily enough I was just, I was there three months and I can’t remember, I can’t imagine where, how I was there three months, took my time I suppose
DK: And this was at Lord’s
HM: And this was at Lord’s Cricket Ground
DK: Yeah
HM: At the Long Room, so I can always say I’ve been at Lord’s Cricket Ground and the Long Room as well. Of course, I know it’s this sort of side effect, but you met a lot of ladies or young girls and you had a good time with them, I mean, I reckon all the airmen would tell you that,
DK: Yeah
HM: We’ve all had flings with somebody, you know, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know if this is [unclear], I had a, I met a lovely young lady, and she wanted me, I found out that she was a Jewess, you know, well, I did, that part didn’t bother me at all, you know, I said, I’m only here for a couple of months I said whatever, we’ll have a nice time, take her to the pictures, dances, and what that, which I did and [unclear], me mom and dad would like to see ye, oh no, no, I’m not, no, I’m not, so I said, yeah, well, it’s very kind of them but I’d rather think I’m not ready for that yet, so that passed, that was a little bit of history, some of my family don’t know that, but she was a lovely girl and we got on well together, you know, was just
DK: Well, it wasn’t the time to get serious then, was it?
HM: It wasn’t the time to get serious anyway with anybody, I mean, you could’ve been here one day and [unclear] the next, but it’s not fair to anybody [unclear], anyway that’s fine so I passed all the examinations and then I went to training school, to train as air gunner, but this, sorry, I’ve got mixed up, I put Bridgnorth before, it should be after
DK: Right, ok
HM: Right?
DK: Right, ok
HM: [unclear] by Bridgnorth, kind of when we learned about air gunnery
DK: Right, that was at Bridgnorth
HM: That was at Bridgnorth
Dk: Right, ok
HM: We learned all about Bridgnorth, we didn’t do route marches there, was all air gunnery training
DK: So, what, at Bridgnorth then, what sort of training as a gunner did you do then, was it all on the ground or?
HM: Yes, just to refresh me memory, I went to Pembury for air gunnery training,
DK: Right
HM: First
DK: Right
HM: I’m trying to get where this is in, I should have me book out, then I go to Bridgnorth first, or did I go to Pembrey first?
DK: That doesn’t matter, I mean, you obviously went to both, so,
HM: I went, yes, I went to Pembrey, yes, I think that, I think Pembrey was the first thing
DK: Right
HM: Before that
DK: So, it’s Pembrey then Bridgnorth
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: Eh.
DK: So what was
HM: This, when he came flying Bridgnorth, Pembrey could’ve been after Bridgnorth, that’s right, ah, that’s right, I learned all about air gunnery, on the ground
DK: On the ground, so what did the training involve then? Did you have to get to know the wetland and [unclear]
HM: You had to learn all about the Browning 303 guns and you didn’t have to bother about rifles but we did do rifling on a course, firing at targets, you know, our legs spread out and
DK: Lying down
HM: Lying down, yeah, everybody lying down and instructors behind you telling you what to do, so, that was part of the training, firing rifles, we also did clay pigeon
DK: Right
HM: Clay pigeon shooting as well
DK: Is it something you took to? Were you quite?
HM: Yeah, quite happy with, I quite enjoyed clay pigeon shooting but because I mostly hit them, I must have been ok for that, yeah, I quite enjoyed that training
DK: So, was it deflection shooting then?
HM: Yes, deflection, oh no, deflection came at Pembrey
DK: Ah, right, ok.
HM: So, Bridgnorth comes before Pembrey
DK: Yeah
HM: We went to Pembrey, that’s the thing
DK: And that’s where you learned pigeon shooting
HM: That’s where I learned all the, that’s where we were up in Ansons and that’s where we did our air gunnery training, and hit a towing target, you know, a plane would drag a tow and we would have to fire at the tow, which had sunny camera as well, as well as live shooting we did
DK: So you had a trip in the Avro Anson then, would that’d been the first time you’ve flown?
DK: That was the first I’d ever been in the air
HM: Yes, this is the Anson one, this is, that’s, oh no, that’s Lossiemouth, that’s further on now, anyway, I did the, I did Pembrey training on Ansons, and that’s the first time I’ve been flying,
DK: So, was the turret in the Anson
HM: No, I can’t remember, there must have been a turret,
DK: Right
HM: There must have been a turret because we had been to fly, we had to fire at the drove
DK: Right
HM: And according to that, I had four percent so, that’s supposed to be good,
DK: Four percent?
HM: Supposed to be good,
DK: Right
HM: Out of a hundred rounds, yes, [unclear]
DK: A hundred rounds, four hit and that was quite good
HM: Yeah, pretty good, must have been, I passed. So, I did me Anson training down there and air gunnery and learning all about deflection
DK: Yeah
HM: Find the speed of your aircraft, find the speed of their aircraft, you find the width, the length and the distance between and fire a head of it, so many yards ahead so that the bullet was collided at the same time with the aircraft, hopefully, anyway I must admit when I hit, well, I did hit it a few times, so that’s gone down there so, so I passed out as an air gunner down in Anson, down in Pembrey on Ansons. From there I went to Lossiemouth
DK: Right, so [unclear] the logbook
HM: That’s where the logbook comes in
DK: Can I have a look?
HM: Yeah, have a look at there first.
DK: So, it’s, I’ve got here, just for this, it’s number 1 AGS, is that
HM: Yeah, 1 AGS
DK: It’s that Air Gunnery School?
HM: That’s Air Gunnery School
DK: And that’s at Pembrey
HM: Yeah, at Pembrey at that time
DK: So, that’s on the Avro Ansons
HM: Yeah. That’s on the Ansons.
DK: That tells you here how many rounds you fired. Say, three hundred rounds?
HM: Yeah
DK: So, three hundred rounds score, for example thirty-one?
HM: Thirty-one, yeah
DK: Three hundred rounds splashed, so you were [unclear] into the sea
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: We had tiny cameras as well
DK: The steady cameras, yeah. Oh I see, it actually says sindy cameras, isn’t it?
HM: It says sindy camera, yeah
DK: So, total flying then was twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes
HM: Of training
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: Training at Pembrey, so,
HM: At Pembrey
DK: So, the flights itself weren’t very long, were they?
HM: Oh no
DK: About thirty minutes, thirty, forty minutes
HM: Yeah. No, the flights themselves weren’t very long, you were up
DK: Can you remember how many of you were in the Anson?
HM: There’d be about five of us, ex air gunners
DK: And you’d all take it in turns
HM: We’d all take it in turns
DK: To shoot
HM: Yeah
DK: So, then it tells you how many rounds you fired
HM: It tells how many rounds you fired there and if you were
DK: How many hits?
HM: There is one thing about all this training. If you failed on one subject, you were out
DK: You were out, yeah
HM: You didn’t get a second chance you know
DK: So, it says here beam
HM: Beams
DK: Beam, 7.83 percent. And then Beam RS
HM: Don’t remember what RS stands for
DK: That’s 5.66 percent hits. And then quarter
HM: Oh, that’s, ah, that’s if you draw [unclear], yeah, beam is stale across
DK: Beam across, yeah and quarter is 3.24 percent
HM: Yeah, it would be probably diving, and you’d have to follow it down
DK: So the quarter then, total was four thousand eight hundred rounds so you [unclear] corner
HM: In total
DK: In total, in total
HM: Oh yes, you done a lot of firing altogether but
DK: And they were all with the Browning 303s
HM: All with 303s
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: So, after Pembrey then, you’ve gone to Lossiemouth
HM: I went to Lossiemouth
DK: And that’s with 20 OTU, 20 Operational Training Unit
HM: Yeah, Operational Training Unit
DK: So, I’m just reading your logbook here, it’s just for the benefit of the recording,
HM: Yeah
DK: So, you went to Lossiemouth in September 1944
HM: Yeah
DK: And you were training on Wellingtons
HM: Wellingtons, yeah, lovely aircraft
DK: So, what do you, you liked the Wellingtons
HM: Lovely aircraft
DK: Yeah
HM: Yes, I liked the Wellington, was a really good, it seemed to be, what shall we say
DK: Stable?
HM: Very stable and, you know, it seemed you could do anything with it, and it would answer the call, whatever you wanted to do with it. You know, if you would tell the skipper to corkscrew, you know,
DK: Yeah. So, they were very agile
HM: Yeah, very agile aircraft, very manoeuvrable
DK: Very manoeuvrable.
HM: Manoeuvrable
DK: So, when you were training on the Wellingtons then, did you go? You were training in the turrets,
HM: Oh yes, we in the turrets, yeah
DK: So, you were in the rear turret
HM: Rear turret
DK: The front turret? Or the rear turret?
HM: I was never in the mid upper gunner
DK: Right
HM: I was always in the rear turret and I followed, you’re sort of on your own at the back, yeah, everybody else is in the front, and you are the full length of the aircraft at the other end, you felt on your own but you didn’t feel lonely, shall I say, you felt on your own but not lonely
DK: So, by the time you got to 20 OTU, have you met up with your crew now then or kind of [unclear]?
HM: That’s where you meet your crew
DK: Right
HM: All except the engineer
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah
DK: And how did your crew come together then?
HM: Well, you’re all sort of, shall I say, in a big room, and air gunners, you know, you’re only a little groups of navigators, air gunners and what, and then you sort of just wander about and you find this, well, you usually find the skipper and then sort of go round with him, having a chat with everybody and then see who liked to join us and you know, was, it wasn’t sort of you go there and you go there, you know, you had one and talked to everybody
DK: Did you think that was a good idea that you kind of found your own crews, you weren’t ordered to?
HM: Well, I think so because you thought, well, I could get on with that chap, and you know, if he’s willing to join us, well, what do you say? Well, they told their friend, so what do you think?
DK: Cause it’s quite
HM: [unclear] quite like him
DK: It’s quite unusual, isn’t it, because normally in the military, in the RAF, you’re told where to go and do this, do this
HM: [unclear]
DK: But the crewing up was very much
HM: Very much a disorganised organised
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, organised disorder, so they say
DK: And can you remember the name of the pilot that you ended up with?
HM: Oh yes, W. B. Holmes
DK: W. B. Holmes
HM: Yeah. Don’t ask me the names, I can tell you the, probably tell you the first name, the, he was called, W. B. Holmes, Basil, we called him Basil, anyway and we had a navigator who was called Jock, he was the bomb aimer, he was a Scot, he came from Scotland. Navigator, we had, he was from London, Ken, Ken, had another air gunner called, the mid upper gunner was called Colman, I forgot his name there, what was his name again? Oh! It’s gone, it’s gone over the head, he was one, he was the grandson of the mustard people, you know, Colman’s mustard
DK: Oh, right, oh right, yeah
HM: Was the grandson of the custard, people, the navigator was called Ken, he came from London. I’ve already given you the bomb aimer. Well, the flight
DK: Flight engineer
HM: Flight engineer, I don’t know if his name’s in the book
DK: We’ll have a look in a minute
HM: It might be
DK: So you were always the rear gunner then
HM: I was always the rear gunner, I operated in that position all the time, all the time I was at Lossiemouth
DK: Cause I noticed towards the end of the time at Lossiemouth, your pilot all the time was Holmes,
HM: Yeah, yeah
DK: So, you’ve crewed up by this point.
HM: Yeah, he’s
DK: So, you had another, other pilots then by
HM: We had another pilots but he was still with us on the pilot, the pilot was still with us every time,
DK: Oh, ok.
HM: The instructor would be with him
DK: Oh, ok, so, you’ve crewed up and where it mentions another pilot, your pilot’s there but he is the instructor,
HM: Yeah
DK: Yes, I’ve [unclear] with you
HM: He’s the instructor as well, you see. It was a nice aircraft, the Wellington, mine was very cold, and we had, fortunately we had heat suits, you know, but once I climbed from the rear turret into the middle over the spire and of course I didn’t have me, me heat on then, I mean, me feet were absolutely frozen, I couldn’t feel them, couldn’t move them, so the lads had to drag us over the top and to plug in to bring the circulus back and
DK: So, did you have a heated suit then?
HM: Oh yeah, I had a heated suit which just [unclear] various points of the aircraft because at fifteen thousand feet, you know, it’s very cold and you could feel it, I mean, as you know, we had silk, wool and silk underwear, as well as ordinary suit, the flying suit on top of that, we had plenty of [unclear], plenty of [unclear], as far as the heat was concerned, the temperature at fifteen is pretty low and I lost the use of my legs cause so cold, as soon as I plugged in warm,
DK: Warmed up again
HM: So, ok, no problem at all. So that was Lossiemouth, I spent quite, I think I told you
DK: Yeah, you, it says here you were at Lossiemouth until the end of November 1944
HM: Yeah, about three months I think there
DK: Yeah. And then, going on for the benefit of the recording here, you then gone to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Heavy Conversion Unit, Rufforth
DK: Rufforth
HM: Just outside York
DK: Right. So then, that’s March 1945,
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s in Halifax IIIs?
HM: Halifax IIIs. Yeah, that was a different one to that one there, that’s the two,
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah, Halifax Mark IIIs.
DK: So, what did you think of the Halifaxes then?
HM: Well, I find them fine, they seemed to me to be a solid aircraft, you know, was heavily, was, apparently it was, the engine was underpowered, should’ve had stronger engines, they had the Merlins, Merlin engines but apparently was underpowered, the Halifaxes but also workhorse of the Air Force, no doubt about it
DK: Cause the Halifax III had the Bristol Her, Bristol engines, didn’t they?
HM: The
DK: Bristol [unclear]
HM: They had, they changed to Bristol engines, but the first ones, the Merlins were underpowered,
DK: Underpowered, yeah
HM: But I found it, the skipper seemed to like it, he, there is one thing about him he would let us have a go at flying it as well
DK: Oh, right
HM: Of course, I mean, he was here all the time, so he said, well, if anything happens to me, at least somebody will do, sort of take over and manage to get home sort of thing
DK: So, how often did you take control then?
HM: More or less every time we were up, just for a five minutes maybe, just get a go at it and feel
DK: Really?
HM: Feel it, you know, but nearly every time up, without the instructor
DK: Yeah, without the instructor looking [laughs]
HM: He wouldn’t let, but the skipper did, especially if we were on a long flight,
DK: Yeah. Do you
HM: Three hours up, three hours up to five I was
DK: Do you think that might have given your pilot a bit of confidence, knowing that if something happened to him, somebody would step in?
HM: Yeah. Well, I think that’s what he wanted us to do, I think that it gave him, as he was saying, probably gave him confidence if anything happened to him we could, at least one of us could probably manage to get us home sort of thing. But that’s where I finished, that’s where I finished me time, Rufforth. [unclear] I got to a squadron first, I got to a squadron after that but you [unclear] any about the squadron
DK: Alright, ok, so at the Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s where the flight engineer would have joined you, wouldn’t
HM: That’s where he joined, at [unclear], that’s the first time we’d met him
DK: So you are now a crew of seven at that point
HM: We’re a crew of seven at that point
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: Right, so that’s it for the logbook then
HM: That’s it for the logbook, yeah. The reason for that was the war ended
DK: Alright
HM: We just got into Full Sutton, 77 Squadron, got booked in and had a chat there, got me leader, met everybody we had to meet and of course the war finished
DK: Yeah
HM: So, I never got on operations
DK: Never got on operations
HM: So, and then
DK: So, after all that training
HM: [laughs] after years training,
DK: Yeah
HM: You know,
DK: So it says here, the last flight here is 4th of May 1945
HM: That’s it
DK: As a rear gunner
HM: And I trained, I started
DK: Holmes’s again the pilot
HM: Yeah
DK: In the Halifax III
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s just before you went to 77 Squadron at Full Sutton
HM: Yeah, went to Full Sutton and they had Halifaxes of course, booked in and did everything we had to do, we stayed about a month I think,
DK: Yeah, so
HM: And then I got
DK: The war’s ended
HM: The war ended, so there was no use for air gunners
DK: Yeah
HM: So, then I got posted down to RAF Beaulieu. From Beaulieu, cause if you knew you moved through the rank of sergeant by then
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, when I was sergeant at Rufforth, well, I was sergeant at Lossiemouth. Then I transferred from there down to Beaulieu, A-F-E-E Squadron, which was Air Force Experimental Establishment, so they were expecting on, they were practicing jeeps, and dropping jeeps
DK: Oh, right, ok, from
HM: Parachuting jeeps
DK: From Halifaxes again
HM: No, no, from, what aircraft did they get there? I can’t remember what aircraft we had, was it the Dakota? Could’ve been a Dakota.
DK: Yeah
HM: But I, you see, I wasn’t flying then
DK: Alright
HM: I’ve been moved back to my MT, I was NCO in charge of the MT at Beaulieu, cause I was gone up the rank again, I was Flight Sergeant by then,
DK: Looking back now, how do you feel that, after all that training, you didn’t do any operations? Do you feel that’s a good thing or?
HM: Well
DK: Relieved?
HM: Oh, I didn’t, to be honest, I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel anything
DK: No
HM: I just felt I’d done all that work for nothing. I mean, of course they didn’t know when the war was going to end,
DK: No
HM: You know, they got no idea so I could well have been in operations
DK: Was there any suggestion about you going to the Far East?
HM: Never any [unclear], just, no, I was never at any time moved out of the UK, the only time I went was Northern Ireland, it’s as far as I got across the water, but, no, I never, they didn’t, I don’t know, it just didn’t seem to bother me at the time, I mean, you’re young, you know, you’re twenty years old so, and you don’t sort of care what happens, you just get on with life as it comes,
DK: So how did you, after all these years, how do you look back at your time in the RAF then? Was it?
HM: I enjoyed my time in the RAF
DK: Yeah
HM: In fact so much so I wanted to stay on
DK: Right, so
HM: I wanted it to become a career
DK: Right
HM: But
DK: So you left in ’47.
HM: So I left in ’47. I did five full years in the RAF, I went in April and I think I came out in April approximately anyway
DK: And what was your career after that?
HM: Well, I had to go back to civvy life and I mean, already most of the jobs had been taken up because I’d been out for two years, most of them had been out for forty five, you know, out of forty five alot, I still [unclear] went after that but for two years the jobs were getting filled up
DK: Yeah
HM: So
DK: So, there’s few opportunities for you by now
HM: There was fewer opportunities really, there was very little to pick on, so I had to go sort of, I did, I joined, a [unclear] worked as a [unclear] so he got me a job at the, [unclear] shop, was a big concern, [unclear] called it, he had about six shops spread over here and there and I used to drive the van there delivering the goods round the shop for customers you know and then from there, I didn’t like that job at all, well, I had, it was just to get money, really, you had to have something to live on, so from there I went to insurance, I did two years in insurance and then a job came up at Hoover Limited were applying for a man so I applied there and I got a job there and that was the best thing that I’ve done in my life, working for Hoover
DK: So you were there a number of years then
HM: I was there for, oh, ten years, something like that
DK: You say you wanted to stay on in the Air Force. Did, was there a reason why?
HM: The reason was why, my wife
DK: Ah, ok [laughs]
HM: She wanted a home
DK: Right, ok
HM: Cause I said, you know, I’m, I’d like to stay on but she said, well, I’m not very happy about that, so I said, well, fair right enough, fair enough, I’ll, I could have made a lovely career cause I’d been put forward to become an officer, you know and the squadron leader, I can see him now, engineering officer, I wonder whether actually he’d come and think of it because I was in the charge of the MT section and I had WAAFs as well and the young, the young WAAFs were devils, they’re always late in turning up for work, you know, [unclear] started at eight o’clock, there’s one in particular, [unclear], nice girl, always a half an hour late, you know, and I used to warn her, [unclear] if you keep going on like this, so I did fancy but I got kind of fed up, so I said, look, I’m going to show my authority in here instead of being nice to you all, I’m gonna be a sergeant, so I put her on a fizzer and I’ll tell you another one, I went, [unclear], report order and all so I saw the WAAF, Flight Lieutenant she was, had a word with her, you know, she was a nice girl, I said, you know, a WAAF, you see, putting on a WAAF in charge is different than putting a man in charge, when you want a man in charge, you stand beside him,
DK: Right
HM: If you put a WAAF on charge, you stand beside the officer,
DK: Right
HM: And she asks the other questions, you know, and the reason why I brought her [unclear] and of course there’s a WAAF sergeant with the girl so anyway she got seven days [unclear], I said, there you are, that’ll have to keep you, she said, well, I wasn’t going to go out anyway [laughs], oh well, that’s a good excuse, but I wasn’t that type of NCO, you know, I was very lenient with them, as long as they did their job I was quite happy, there’s only I got tired of them, not turn up with the others, which was like school, and that was another [unclear], the squadron leader and engineering officer who M T [unclear], he, I put one of the lads on a fizzer, he’d been abroad and he only had shoes, well he [unclear] so he had to wear boots you know, well, aircrew always wore shoes but ordinary airmen wore boots
DK: Yeah
HM: And he was an ordinary airman and he just had shoes on this day, officer happened to come along, Squadron Leader [unclear], can picture him, and he says, he came into the office and he says, Mercer, says, I saw an airman over there and he’s got shoes on, he’s not allowed to wear shoes, so I said, well, I’m sorry sir but that airman has just come from abroad and he hasn’t been issued with shoes, boots, never mind that, you’ve got to put him on a charge, so I put him on a charge, and then a flight lieutenant took the [unclear] that day to say I got this lad, this airman, what you’re here for, you know, oh, you’ve been wearing shoes, you’re not allowed to wear shoes. So he said he hadn’t any boots, he said, I haven’t any boots, he says, well, the [unclear] chaps in charge of the distribution of clothing
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: The quartermaster
HM: Well, sort of a quartermaster, yeah, airman in the forces
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Clothing whatever, anyway, he hadn’t boots to fit in so well, he said, that’s tough, he says, you should be wearing boots, he said, I had them before now, so I said, I’m sorry sir, you can’t charge him because this airman has just come from abroad and there’s no way if the stores, the main stores haven’t got boots in, there’s some over there the equipment, I’ll talk to the equipment officers
DK: The equipment officer, yeah
HM: So, he was just a flight lieutenant, so he said, righto, I’ll take you [unclear], discharged, so obviously phoned squadron leader [unclear] here, is Mercer there? oh yes, speaking sir, I want to see you, ok, so I went to see him, he said, you did the wrong thing, you know, I said, why, sir? He said, well, you got this airman off his charge, I said, well, I believe in equality as well and I’m right, right decisions to be made, sir, well, I says, this airman had no chance to get shoes, the boots, I said, all he could bare were shoes, at least he turned up properly
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Did his duties properly. Oh right, well, I’ll let you off this time, I says, ok, sir. Anyway, the next [unclear] rings me up again, I want a word with you, so I said, yeah, that’s fine. He said, let’s forget about that situation, he said, would you not like to join full time, and be make of your career, I said, to be quite honest, sir, I would love to, but you’d have to have two words with my wife if you wanted to get me here. So, you know, there’s a camaraderie in the Air Force as well, you can talk, at one I suppose I can talk [unclear] me, but I think the discipline is not quite so strict as the other forces, there’s a little bit of leniency, in my opinion, because it was the same on nearly every camp I went to, I used to get on well with all the officers and all the fellows around about, [unclear] a different atmosphere amongst the
DK: Is it something you missed then over the years?
HM: Yeah, I miss, I do, I miss the camaraderie as I would call it, the get togetherness, you know
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crew at all?
HM: No, unfortunately we only had one get together, down in London in the Cumberland Hotel, and I never couldn’t get in touch with anybody anymore after that, nobody seemed to bother, you know, but we’d be together quite long to nearly a year nearly from the think of it, when you think of it
DK: There’s a lot of training you went through together, wasn’t it?
HM: A lot of training we went through together, many good nights we had together, and that, the last one the squadron leader I was talking about, the last engineering officer, one night I was finishing the last week actually and it was a terrific storm that night, he says, come on, we’ll have to go out and check all the aircraft, so I went round with him and all the time he says, [unclear] you could make a lovely career, he says, there’s good things ahead for you if you want to stay in, he says, I’ll speak for you, so, but he tried all that, all that night and it was a really horrible night, wind howling and we just checked the aircraft and then that was it but he was, he’d been in the Air Force a long time, he was engineer, squadron leader and he was engineering officer, and I got on very well with him and wanted him just things going through my head sometimes, we had to lift a huge pile about the height of this room round, out of a Nissen hut, you know, was the height of the Nissen hut, I think it was the dining section so it might have been a bigger hut, anyway it had to be lifted this boiler had to be lifted out
DK: So it was a boiler you were lifting out
HM: It was a boiler I was lifting out, one of these huge things and so I said, one of the drivers, he says, look, will you take the trawls crane, to lift this boiler up, for we want to get to disposal, oh, I can’t, I can’t do that, I say, yes, pushed an empty [unclear], yeah but, he said, but I have never lifted a boiler and I have never driven a trawls crane, says, some driver you are, so anyway, I couldn’t get any of them, anyone, I said, it’s slightly the worst thing, do it yourself if you want to do it, if you want don’t, do it yourself, so I had to, I had never drove a [unclear] crane to be quite truthful, so anyway I had a run, just did what I had to do and give it a few works to see how it lifted and dropped and I lifted it up, put it up, and the lad said, gave us a clap [laughs] after at first, I said, you lot should have been doing this, not me
DK: So, can I just go back to something, I just noticed on here, 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Yeah
DK: It says, you did twenty-eight hours twenty-four minutes daily and seven hours five minutes flying at night, so that was all training
HM: That’s all training, yeah
DK: So, what was the night-time flying like, was that hazardous or?
HM: Well, it was hazardous in a way, because although the war had finished, you never knew if there was gonna be a stray around so you had to still keep on your guard, you know, I’d rather think you were so tensed really but you had to still keep your way as you were flying and we were flying right down to the coast, you know, the full length of England and just to the coast and back and [unclear] and the skipper says, we better turn back or they think we are going to drop a bomb on them and we were going over Bristol Channel, just around about that area, he says, the rear gunner, you can have test your guns here if you wish, I said, ok, so I prepared everything and had a few bursts, he said, I think, I think that’s enough, they might think we are firing at them and they will be firing back at us, yeah, these are just little things that, you know, people think, well you wouldn’t do, but you do
DK: Cause some of these training flights they are quite long, are they? There is one here is three hours and three minutes
HM: Three hours, yeah
DK: And others are quite short, aren’t they? About forty minutes, fifteen minutes
HM: Yeah, you’ll find the one, three hours and I think there’s one a bit longer than that
DK: I got three twenty-five and three fifteen
HM: Yeah
DK: It looks like that
HM: That’s when we went down the coast, right to the bottom and back
DK: Ok then, I’ll probably stop you there, I think, that’s marvellous that is
HM: Yeah
DK: Thanks very much for your time
HM: Yeah, well
DK: I’ll stop that now
HM: We did our work and I never used it
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, we put a lot of time and thought into it, sort of thing
DK: So, you put a lot of time and effort into the training and then never did any operations
HM: No, we never did the finishing work, but I enjoyed me time in the Air Force anyway, you know, the five years that I had, I’ve got, you know, some nice memories
DK: Memories, yeah
HM: Memories of it
DK: Yeah
HM: And that’s as you say, the only thing that I didn’t do an operation [unclear] after training, you know, but
DK: [unclear]
HM: That’s a luck of the draw,
DK: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Mercer
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMercerH170519, PMercerH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:14:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Mercer served in the RAF initially as a transport driver and then trained to become an air gunner. He worked as a milkman before being called up in April 1942. Was sent to Weston-super-Mare, where he played in the military band. Was then sent to Blackpool to train as a transport driver. From there he was sent to RAF Bridgnorth for general training. Was then posted to 901 Squadron on barrage balloons at RAF Kidbrooke, London, where as a transport driver he supplied balloon sites with food and equipment. Was then posted to Eglinton, Northern Ireland at 5019 Squadron, where he drove a flight lieutenant to various airfields and maintenance sites. Was then sent to train as an air gunner. He flew on Ansons at RAF Pembrey and on Wellingtons at RAF Lossiemouth. Was then posted to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Rufforth on Halifax Mark IIIs and from there to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton. By that time, war had ended and so he never got on operations. Was then posted to RAF Beaulieu to the Air Force Experimental Establishment.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Northern Ireland
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1945
1663 HCU
20 OTU
77 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
entertainment
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Pembrey
RAF Rufforth
RAF Weston-super-Mare
service vehicle
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/PAlgarH1701.1.jpg
fc6613bb2e0382203476e2c25fd2b6dd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/667/9220/AAlgarH170520.1.mp3
971b79860cc48492ea1f6c034d96276b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Algar, Harry
Harold Keith Mael Algar
H K M Algar
Description
An account of the resource
Thirteen items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Algar (1924 - 2022, 1801102 Royal Air Force) and his log books and documents.
He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 463 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Greg Algar and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-05-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Algar, H
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DK: [unclear] So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harry Algar at the Dambuster’s Inn on the 20th of May, is it the 20th today?
HA: [unclear] we’ve been discussing that this morning, what the date is [laughs]
US: I think it is, yes.
DK: Ok, [unclear], I can always amend it later. If I keep looking down at this, I’m just making sure that it’s still working cause I sometimes get beaten by the technology and the battery runs out or something
HA: Yeah
DK: So if I look down that’s all I’m doing. So, just leave that there. So, what I wanted to ask you Harry was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HA: Well, at that time I was working in London right next to London Bridge, working for Hay’s Wharf and I used to go up there every day, because in those days I went there on Saturdays as well as the other days of the week and I was what they called an office boy in those days, I don’t suppose they have them these days, but I worked in the engineer’s department of Hay’s Wharf [unclear] on the river front right from London Bridge down to Tower Bridge and part of my job was to walk from there to there and put in the time cards for the various [unclear] cranes and all the equipment they had on the wharf and then we’d take them out at the end of the week, work out their wages, that was my job then
DK: Right, so, what made you then want to join the Air Force, is there anything in particular?
HA: Well, yeah, in those days, it’s any different now but I did realise that there was gonna be trouble with Germany again and so I thought if I joined the RAF now at least I’m in the Air Force, not in the navy or the army
DK: So, the navy and army didn’t appeal to you?
HA: Not really, no, and so I joined the, what was it called? The
DK: ATC
HA: ATC, yes, I was one of the first to join the ATC, I joined the Woolwich Squadron, cause I lived comparatively near to Woolwich
DK: So how old would you have been about then?
HA: Sixteen,
DK: Sixteen
HA: Sixteen, seventeen
DK: Yeah
HA: Yes, I actually joined the Air Force when I was seventeen and I got called up when I was eighteen
DK: Yeah, right. So what did you feel when you were called up into the Air Force, what were you?
HA: I was expecting it, you know, it’s no great surprise
DK: No. And what were you hoping to do once you joined?
HA: Well, when I was in the ATC, I took the [unclear] leave for navigators, pilots and bomb aimers and that was sufficient actually to get me into aircrew
DK: Right. So you were tested then to see what your best sort of role
HA: Yes, well, when I actually joined the RAF the first thing I did was to go to the Elementary Flying Training School on, what the heck they called them?
DK: Is it the biplanes, the Tiger Moths?
HA: Yeah, Tiger Moths, on Tiger Moths, yeah. So, I was on Tiger Moths but I wasn’t specially able to, I didn’t progress quickly enough and so I came out of that particular scheme and got sent to Canada to do an air bomber scheme.
DK: So, when you were trying to fly the Tiger Moths, did they tell you quite early on, no, this isn’t
HA: I did about ten or twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths and after that they said, we think you’re more likely to kill us than kill Germans [laughs] so I was taken off the scheme.
DK: So, you then went off to Canada.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
HA: Well yes, at the time, Roosevelt was in charge of the scheme and Churchill was going out to Canada to meet him and to discuss the state of the war and so Churchill was on the Queen Mary and I was on the Queen Mary as well.
DK: Oh right, Churchill was on the ship at the same time.
HA: Yes.
DK: Oh, right.
HA: Cause in those days, but most people don’t realise it that you couldn’t fly to Canada, not directly, you could only go by in small hops you know, so he went on the Queen Mary and I went on the Queen Mary
DK: Did you see him?
HA: Yes, I was outside his suite supposed to be guarding him, unfortunately I was rather sick [laughs] I could only go out and say [unclear]
DK: Were you a bit seasick then?
HA: Oh yes.
DK: So you were supposed to be actually guarding Churchill.
HA: Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Did he speak to you?
HA: No, I never saw him.
DK: You never saw him, oh, right.
HA: No. And of course when we went because we had him on board we had a squadron of Spitfires with us going down the Irish Sea and then we got down to the Irish, through the Irish Sea into the Channel, then it would be full steam ahead and then go down south into the South Pacific, South Atlantic so that you would avoid the submarines and then come up the coast of
DK: So, you weren’t actually in a convoy then, you [unclear]
HA: No, just a single ship
DK: Just the Queen Mary
HA: Yeah. It could outrun submarines
DK: Alright, so [unclear]
HA: And of course the submarine could, if it was very lucky, happen to be [unclear] our position to torpedo it but [unclear]
DK: Yeah, so are going at quite a speed then on the
HA: Yes, it could do thirty knots, twenty eight to thirty knots something like that but they were quite a quick [unclear] away but because of the length of the trip going down into the South Atlantic it took us best part of a week, I think
DK: And whereabouts in Canada did you dock, you remember?
HA: Well, we docked at New York
DK: Alright.
HA: We docked at New York and
DK: Was this, would this have been the first time you’d been over to another country in overseas?
HA: No, in, before I left school, I went on a school trip to Holland and Belgium and France
DK: Alright. Obviously the first time to America then
HA: First time to America, yeah, and then from New York we went up to Moncton in Canada which was via Boston and Providence and then we waited in Halifax until there was this place in a school for me to go to and then I was sent to Picton in
DK: In Picton
HA: Picton, yeah, in Ontario and did a bomb aimers course there and then after that I did a short navigation course
DK: So, what did the bomb aiming course involve then? What did you have to do?
HA: Well, it involved a whole of the theory of bombing, also all the things to do with the bombs and the components, so that you knew exactly what the bombs would do and what sort of fusing they had on them and pyrotechnics as well, so a lot of it was more or less, more armament than anything else and I’d be responsible for the bombload on the, on whatever aircraft I was flying at the time
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft were training there?
HA: Yeah, yeah, Ansons
DK: Ansons, yeah
HA: And then we had Blenheim IVs,
DK: Right.
HA: Blenheim IVs we used as towing targets and also we were going to the turret of another one and fire at a drove that
DK: [unclear] being towed, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did
HA: They were towed by Lysanders
DK: Lysanders. So, what did you think of Canada then, was it?
HA: Oh, it was fine, I mean, it was [unclear] really I suppose because when we went there it was still more or less summertime I think, I can’t quite remember when I went but
Dk: [unclear] people were training in winter [unclear] it was very cold
HA: Well we, when I’d finished training I went back to Halifax to wait for a boat, to take a ship to bring me back to England and that was in the winter and we had several feet of snow and I took the opportunity to go to Montreal and Quebec and also I took a couple of trips down to New York because we had a fair amount of time spare you know, it wasn’t something you [unclear] [mimics a bombing sound] that’s how you’re going to work, it was done over a period of time cause you never knew exactly when you were going anywhere
DK: No. So, what did the training actually involve? What are you also dropping dummy bombs as well or?
HA: Yes, yes, that’s in
DK: Is in one of the logbooks
HA: One of them, yeah, first of them
DK: That one, that’s, is that the first one?
HA: Right at the beginning
DK: So, I’ll read this out just for the benefit of the recording here, so you were with 31 Bombing and Gunnery School
HA: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, so, Picton
DK: Picton, Ontario, Canada,
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you’re going, you’re flying on Lysanders, no, you’re not flying, sorry, you’re flying on Ansons
HA: Yeah. Doing the bombing
DK: Yeah, flying on Ansons and the [unclear] which is the Blenheim.
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got example here is six bombs, there’s quite a number of flights on the Ansons then
HA: Yeah
DK: And the [unclear], yeah, and the Anson again
HA: And I went to the navigation school
DK: Alright, that’s
HA: At Mount, Mount Hope, Mount Hope is still in use in Canada as a major
DK: Funny enough I’m going there next month
HA: Oh yeah?
DK: Hamilton and Mount Hope, so this is, so then you went onto number 33 ANS
HA: Yes
DK: So that’s the Air Navigation
HA: Air Navigation
DK: Air Navigation School, yeah. And that was at Mount Hope,
HA: Yeah
DK: Hamilton, Ontario.
HA: Yeah
DK: So then you’re back on Ansons again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was purely navigation training
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So it’s got where you had to fly from and to then
HA: Yeah, various cross-country trips
DK: Yeah. And then, so you’ve come back to the UK then
Ha: Yeah, then we went to Penrhos
DK: Penrhos, so that was number 9 AFU
HA: Yes, Advanced Flying School
DK: Number 9 Advanced Flying School
HA: And that was really to get you into, you know, into with the sort of weather that you would have in England which was obviously quite different to Canada, so that was an introduction to English weather
DK: So that was all air bombing training again
HA: Yeah
DK: Rather than navigation and that’s all on Ansons. What did you think of the Anson as an aircraft?
HA: [laughs] Well of course it was, well the first Anson I flew in you didn’t, you, to get the undercarriage up you had to
DK: Wind it up
HA: Wind it up [laughs], so you had the pilot sitting there, I was sitting here and I’d be winding up the undercarriage [laughs]
DK: So, how many of you would go on, roughly on one of these training? Was it you and a couple of other
HA: Yeah, just, yeah, yeah.
DK: So you also used the gun turret as well.
HA: Yes, yeah
DK: So you’re trained in air bombing, gunnery and navigation
HA: Yes
DK: Yeah. [unclear] the training there so then you’ve gone to number 29 Operational Training Unit at Bruntingthorpe
HA: Yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: That’s 29 OTU Bruntingthorpe
HA: Bruntingthorpe
DK: There you’re on the Wellingtons
HA: Yeah, this was crewing up with the idea of eventually going onto a squadron.
DK: So, how did you meet your crew then, was it at the OTU?
HA: Yeah, yeah. All that happened was that they would have enough people from the various trades to make up about eight or ten crews, something like that and you’d all be put into one room and told to mingle and sort yourself out in your crews.
DK: And through that you found your pilot and
HA: Yeah
DK: Navigator. How did you think that worked, cause it’s a bit unusual. Because normally
HA: It worked very well actually because I never knew anybody who was dissatisfied with the people that I picked up to fly with.
DK: Because it’s quite unusual really, it’s not normally how the military worked
HA: Yes
DK: You’re [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah.
DK: But you think that worked well then
HA: It did, yeah, I was crewed up with, where I found my pilot, he was an Australian, that’s how I got on the Australian squadron
DK: Can you remember his name?
HA: Yes, Hyland, Frank Hyland, H-Y-L-A-N-D
DK: Frank Hyland.
HA: Yeah. His name’s in there
DK: Yes, his name’s in there, yes, so he’s Flight Sergeant Hyland
HA: Yeah
DK: H-Y-L-A-N-D
HA: Yeah. Then later on when we were going, I’m not sure whether it was when we were there but he got commissioned
DK: Right, ok.
HA: And we weren’t very keen on that because in those days the, well, do you know the, if you were commissioned, you were a bit [unclear] from the people who weren’t commissioned and it tend to break up the crew so we weren’t keen on that
DK: Would he have been the only officer on the crew then?
HA: Yeah, he was
DK: So, once he was commissioned then, did that mean you didn’t socialise at all?
HA: That’s right. Well, that’s not true because we did, it was against the law, but you know, you’re not supposed to socialise with your lower ranks but we used to meet up in pubs, we already did you know, because at that time was when things were beginning to break down when it came to the, you know, the iron fist in the services, you know, became easier to meet with
DK: But on the station itself you’d be living separate
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: You’d be in the officer’s mess
HA: That’s it, that was why we didn’t like very much, I mean you couldn’t talk as much as you would like to about what you’d done or what you expected to do
DK: Which I would imagine would’ve been good for you, your job if you got to know each other better
HA: Well, it is, yes, it is, yes
DK: So, at 29 OTU then you were flying Wellingtons?
HA: Yes.
DK: And what did you think of the Wellington?
HA: They were marvellous aircraft really, they were geodetic construction which means they were as you probably know, teaching the conversion [laughs] but you know it’s like [unclear] with the canvas outside but they were remarkably strong and no, I thought they were great aircraft
DK: Right, so, so after 29 OTU then, gone on
HA: Then we started getting onto the Heavies
DK: Right, so
HA: And you didn’t go onto Lancasters straight away because all the Lancasters at that time were being used by frontline squadrons
DK: Alright. Ok, so then, just read your logbook again, you went to 1660
HA: Heavy Conversion Unit
DK: Heavy Conversion Unit and that was
HA: That was on Stirlings
DK: Right, so that’s at Swinderby
HA: Yeah
DK: [unclear] 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit, Swinderby and you’re flying Stirlings
HA: Stirlings, yeah
DK: What did you think of the Stirling?
HA: Not a lot [laughs], they were heavy, cumbersome things and they were all like, I think they got their design and that from people who worked on ships
DK: Right.
HA: I mean they were, they came from Ireland, Belfast and they’d been more used to work on ships than on aircraft
DK: And what was it like as an air bomber then? Because you’re at the front, are they quite high up?
HA: Oh yes,
DK: [unclear]
HA: Oh well, you don’t sit on the front for take-off
DK: Right, ok
HA: You come back and then you go down the front when you’re airborne
DK: I noticed you’re not having your coffee. [unclear]
US: [unclear] forgot it. He hasn’t brought it, has he?
DK: Right, ok, so, you’re
HA: I just done
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit
HA: That’s right, yes. And now next thing is the Lanc Finishing School which means that you go on to Lancasters and get tuned up on what’s happening before you go on the squadron.
DK: So that was, just for the benefit of the recording, making sure it’s working, is number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston
HA: Mhm.
DK: So you, so the idea is then you’ve gone from the Heavy Conversion Unit to then [unclear]
HA: To the aircraft you’re gonna fly on Bomber Command. And you know, you get used to it before you actually get sent to a squadron cause obviously when you get to the squadron you’re expected to be [unclear] with what’s going on
Dk: Alright. So what did you think of the Lancaster then when you?
HA: A marvellous aircraft [unclear], very strong and quite fast and a good altitude, the defence wasn’t so hot, it was on any aircraft
DK: No. You say the defence, was that a problem with the machine guns or?
HA: Well, they were too light, you know, they were 303s and people were firing at you with rockets and whatever, well not rockets but heavier, heavier
DK: Calibres
HA: Calibre
DK: Yeah. So, as the air bomber then, on Lancaster, was not too short [unclear], were you responsible for both dropping the bombs and the front gun turret?
HA: Yeah, I was responsible for all the armament really on the aircraft and we would go up before a raid and we used to harmonise the guns on the turrets, they would be harmonised the four guns in the rear turret, harmonised at about four hundred yards, in other when I say harmonised all four came to
DK: Came together
HA: Yeah, at that point and in the front you just had two guns and you harmonise those for probably about a hundred yards something like that
DK: And also, so did you have any other roles as the air bomber besides that, so you’re looking after the guns, dropping the bombs and
HA: Well, as soon as you went out to the aircraft, I was in charge of the bombs and so I would have to go round and inspect all the bombs and remove every safety devices that weren’t used once we were airborne so the rest of the armament would be made live once you got airborne and once the aircraft got to target and started to drop the bombs as the bombs came out of their holding and the last safety devices would be removed and the bomb would be live
DK: So how could you remove the last safety device when you’re in the air?
HA: Well, they would [unclear] electrically
DK: Ah, right
HA: You had the, how can I put it? You had something that was locked in and when you switched on the electrics the [unclear] would work and clamp onto that thing and hold it in position till the bomb had gone
DK: Right, and you could control that from
HA: Yeah
DK: Something in the, the bomb aimers area
HA: Yeah
DK: So you had a control panel who did that
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: Alright.
HA: And you could, if you got into trouble, you could drop all the bombs at once [unclear] panel showed that you could drop a salvo of bombs all at once so if you put it on that you could get rid of the whole immediately so if you were in trouble, you could lighten the aircraft by several thousand pounds you know
DK: Very quickly
HA: Yeah [phone rings]
DK: Ok. So, after the Lancaster Finishing School then, you’ve gone to number 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: Based at Waddington
HA: Yeah
DK: So we [unclear] that for the benefit of that and that was in first, so, November 1944 [unclear]
HA: That’s right, yeah
DK: What did you think of Waddington when you got there?
HA: Well, we were very lucky really cause it’s a pre-war aerodrome with buildings, got accommodation as I said in my book there, some people were in Nissen huts you know in winter it was terribly cold and in summer they were really hot so they were quite uncomfortable, but we had permanent buildings to live in, we had a decent mess, we were really lucky
DK: And you mentioned you went to this particular squadron because your pilot was Australian?
HA: Yeah, we had an Australian wireless operator as well
DK: Right
HA: So we had two Australians on our, on our crew
DK: Can you still name the crew?
HA: Yes, Frank Hyland was the captain and the skipper
DK: Yeah
HA: I was the bomb aimer
DK: Yeah
HA: Navigator was Keith, what was his name?
DK: Listed in here?
HA: Yes, it is. Cause I was his best man
DK: Right.
US: [unclear]
DK: Frank Hyland, wasn’t that?
HA: Frank Hyland, yeah
DK: So, that’s your crew there
HA: Yeah
DK: So, you got Bob Stewart
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric
US: No.
HA: No, Eric is the only one that I, we couldn’t keep in contact with
DK: Alright
HA: After the war he just sort of disappeared and I found unfortunately, I’ve also forgotten his name as well
DK: Yeah, right. And then Ken Richardson?
HA: Yeah. He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner. Keith Jenkins?
HA: Yeah, he was the navigator.
DK: Navigator.
HA: Yeah
DK: Frank Hyland
HA: He was the pilot
DK: Pilot. And then you got Max ?
HA: Yeah [unclear] I don’t remember his name, he was the other Aussie.
DK: So, he was the wireless operator [unclear]
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Yeah
HA: He was a great sportsman actually, he played for Australia after the war, rugby
DK: Alright. So I’ll, just for the benefit of the recording again, I’ll read this out again, so, from left to right you got, [unclear], Bob Stewart, he was the
HA: He was engineer
DK: Flight engineer
HA: Yeah
DK: Eric somebody, who was
HA: The mid upper gunner
DK: Mid upper gunner, Ken Richardson
HA: He was the rear gunner
DK: Rear gunner, Keith Jenkins,
HA: He was the navigator
DK: Navigator. Frank Hyland, pilot
HA: Was the pilot
DK: And the Max somebody
HA: Wireless operator
DK: Wireless operator and he was the Australian
HA: Yeah
DK: So, was 463 a good squadron, do you think?
HA: Yes, well, the thing was that you were only on the squadron for about six months really, in general you know, you don’t, you’re not gonna be on it for years and at that time you don’t get to know people all that well but because you’re, not really with the other squadron, the other crews, your, it’s your crew you were interested in
DK: Yes, yeah. So, you didn’t mix too much?
HA: Not all that much, no, we, as a crew we always stuck together and when went out socializing we always stuck together, we all had bikes you know, we just cycled down the pub, the Horse and Jockey at
US: Coningsby?
HA: No, The Horse and Jockey at, quite close to Waddington, Bracebridge Heath
DK: Bracebridge Heath. Yeah.
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it still there?
HA: Yeah
DK: Oh, right, I’ll have to go along to it at some point
HA: Yeah [laughs]
DK: See if they remember you [laughs]. So, looking at your logbook again then you got your first operation to Heilbronn?
HA: Heilbronn, yes
DK: Heilbronn, just for the benefit of the recording, H-E-I-L-B-R-O-N-N
HA: Yeah
DK: So, your bombs then are thirteen thousand pounds
HA: Yeah
DK: So, one
HA: One four thousand pounder
DK: Six
HA: Six one thousand pounders
DK: And six five hundred pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: So how did you feel after you’re done, after all this training and done your first operation?
HA: Oh, relieved I suppose, I managed to do one without getting shot down [laughs]. I mean the thing is lots of people joined the Air Force, they never managed to do very much because they got shot down on the first trip, you know, but to survive one tour [unclear] was very fortunate but Dinah’s father, he also was a navigator
DK: Alright.
HA: And he did eighty-three operations, oh, eighty-eight operations, he got, he was ordered a DFC and bar.
DK: What was his name?
US: Mayson
DK: Mayson, alright.
HA: M-A-Y-S-O-N.
DK: M-A-Y-S-O-N, I’ll make a note of that. Alright, so and he flew how many operations?
HA: Eighty-eight, I think it was.
US: I think it’s eighty-six, for all he said.
HA: Oh yeah, it’ll be eighty-six. Yeah, eighty-six.
DK: Can you recall which squadron he was in?
HA: Yes, [unclear] somewhere
US: I am not as old as Harry, so
HA: Not many are [laughs]
US: During the war, we stayed at home, he went and I didn’t really know an awful lot about it
HA: So, he was on Pathfinders as well, he flew on Lancasters, he flew on Mosquitoes,
DK: And so he was a pilot or?
HA: No, a navigator
DK: Navigator, sorry, navigator, yeah
HA: Actually I think he had the same sort of introduction to the RAF as I did, I think he used to wear an O badge, observer, observer was the same sort of thing as bomb and navigation which I did so I think we both did the same sort of course initially and then he went back onto navigation before I did
DK: Alright, and did eighty-three ops
HA: Yes, eighty-three ops. I think he did about thirty on Berlin
DK: Wow!
HA: [laughs]
DK: Ok, just for the benefit of the tape again, just going back to your logbook, so your second operation then, 6th of
HA: Giessen
DK: February 1944 to Giessen
HA: Yeah
DK: And there you got elven thousand pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was twelve one thousand pounders
HA: Yeah
DK: An interesting one next so, the 8th of December, operations to the Urft Dam
HA: Yes
DK: U-R-F-T Dam
HA: Well, that’s in green, it’s daylight
DK: Daylight
HA: But it was clouded over, we didn’t
DK: Cause you got, it says here, eight thousand five hundred pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah
DK: And that was because it was
HA: Weather,
DK: Weather
HA: Couldn’t see the target
DK: No. Would that be normal then, if you couldn’t see the target you’d bring the bombs back?
HA: I don’t know if it would be normal, but we probably got recalled and it was probably said in the brief [unclear] did not jettison or something like that
DK: Oh, ok. And what was it like flying at night compared to day? Did you prefer one to the other?
HA: Oh yes, night flying was always a bit hairy because we went, you take off say from Waddington and it’s probably dark when you take off, you may well have seen the odd aircraft crash you know and you knew that it could be a bit dodgy taking off at night time with all that load of armament on board
DK: Yeah, and the petrol as well
HA: Yeah. Yeah
DK: Ok, so just going through this again then so you had another operation recalled here, so that’s the 10th of December 1944, operation recalled and then,
HA: Where was that to?
DK: It doesn’t actually, it just says, operation recalled
HA: How many hours did it do?
DK: Two hours forty-five
HA: They got started
DK: And then on the 11th of December 1944 it’s the Urft Dam again
HA: Yeah
DK: U-R-F-T,
HA: Again
DK: Ten thousand pounds, no bombs dropped
HA: Again [unclear]
DK: Ten tenth cloud. Ah, and then 18th of December 1944, operations to Gdynia. That was
DK: It’s in Poland, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah, bombing the German fleet which had taken position in Gdynia and we’re bombing them
DF: And that says thirteen thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: And it does actually say in pencil here, Poland bombing German fleet
HA: Yes, right.
DF: And it says landing FIDO
HA: Oh yeah, FIDO, that was, yeah, when we came back it was
DG: Fog
HA: Fog everywhere and we didn’t really know where we were too well and we were told to fly on dead reckoning and wondering whether we would be able to find anywhere to land because you couldn’t get in contact with people without the aerodromes like you could today, there was no VHF or UHF, it was HF, HF was short range communication and so, you know, it was sometimes very difficult to get in touch with people that could help you, so we were just flying along wondering what was going to happen whether we’d have to bail out or [unclear] because we couldn’t find anywhere to land when in the distance we saw a glow in the sky and we flew towards it and then when we got there we realized it was FIDO which is a method of dispersing the fog and we were able to get down and land
DK: That was petrol set like each side of the runway
HA: Yes, petrol, clean burning petrol which dispersed the fog
DK: I bet that was an impressive sight
HA: Oh, it was
DK: [unclear] [laughs]
HA: This was at Carnaby
DK: Carnaby, right, ok.
HA: And the
DK: Was it a bit of a relief to see that then?
HA: Oh, it was, yeah, and there were lots of other aircraft already managed to land on it, the whole aerodrome was covered in aircraft that had managed to get in
DK: So then, next operation then, 12th of December 1944, operations to Politz
HA: Politz, that’s an oil refinery, a big oil refinery
DK: And that was twenty thousand two hundred and fifty pounds of bombs
HA: Yeah
DF: So, one four thousand pounds and six one thousand pound bombs. So, then we’re into 1945 here, so 13th, I think that’s just 13th of January ‘45
HA: Yeah
DK: So, Politz again
HA: Yeah
DK: One four thousand pound bomb and fourteen five hundred pounds of bombs. And then 14th of January 1945, Wurzburg
HA: There’s an oil refinery
DK: Oil refinery again and then 1st of February ’45, Siegen
HA: Siegen, yeah
DK: S-I-E-G-E-N
HA: I don’t remember much about that
DK: And then 2nd of February ’45 operations to Karlsruhe
HA: Where? Karlsruhe? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
DK: And then 13th of February 1945 operations to Dresden.
HA: Yeah
DK: So that was, it says here supporters,
HA: It means that we went around twice
DK: Right
HA: Because what it means is that you go in, drop your bombs and then to give support to those who were still coming in after you go round again, so that [unclear] far ahead [laughs]
DK: Alright. So that’s saying thirteen thousand seven hundred bombs, one four thousand pounder and elven, can’t quite read what that says,
HA: I’ll have a look
DK: Yeah. Is that incendiaries?
HA: Eleven cans, be eleven cans of incendiaries
DK: Eleven cans of incendiaries, right. Do you remember much about the Dresden raid?
HA: Well, yes, I suppose, I remember more than the rest because I suppose I probably brought it to mind because people keep talking about it [laughs]. As far as I was concerned, Dresden was just another town. I mean, I left school when I was fourteen, so I wasn’t all that well educated and Dresden, you know, was just another town
DK: Yeah, just another operation
HA: Yeah, another operation. I remember it because it did burn, I mean without a doubt it was a hell of a burn but
DK: So then 3rd of March 1945 operations to the Dortmund-Ems Canal
HA: Yeah
DK: So then, 5th of March ’45, operations to Bohlen
HA: Bohlen?
DK: B-O-H-L-E-N.
HA: Bohlen.
DK: Bohlen. And then 7th of March Harburg, 12th of March Dortmund, 14th of March Lutzkendorf
HA: Lutzkendorf, that’s another oil refinery
DK: And then it’s got, I notice you landed back at Alconbury
HA: Oh yes, yes
DK: Which was
HA: Oh, is an American base again was being in the fog or something like that we were being diverted there. I remember that because we were eating in the, I remember the soup in there was full of pepper [laughs] couldn’t possibly eat it and I said to this chap, why did you put that much pepper in this? He said, because I like it [laughs].
DK: Making taste, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: And then 20th of March ’45 Bohlen again, B-O-H-L-E-N. Then 22nd of March Bremen and then 27th of March Farge, F-A-R-G-E.
HA: Farge
DK: Farge, F-A-R-G-E. The war’s ended, are we? So, 4th of April Nordhausen.
HA: Nordhausen.
DK: Yes, 7th of
HA: Nordhausen was where they were firing the rockets from on London
DK: Oh, right. Would you, would you tell, can you recall if you were actually told about that, at the briefing
HA: Oh yes.
DK: What the target was?
HA: Oh yes. We were told what we were looking for, because these rockets that they were firing at London, they were coming out of woods and that sort of thing so they were extremely difficult to find, what we were looking for but they weren’t anywhere else you know and London was really getting a pasting with bombs and rockets
DK: The V2s
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HA: Yeah.
DK: So, 7th of April, the operation seems to be recalled and then I can’t quite, it’s something 8th of April I think it is, operations to Lutzkendorf again
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s a supporters as well
HA: Yeah
DK: So would that mean you’ve gone round
HA: Yeah
DK: Twice again
HA: Yeah
DK: Then there was fifteen thousand two hundred and fifty pounds bombs, one four thousand pounder and fourteen five hundred pounds. And then 23rd of April Flensburg, and it says no bombs dropped
HA: Yeah, well, the war was very nearly closed then, very near to close and I think that was probably the last, one of the last targets that were nominated for
DK: And then I see the next few flights then was Operation Exodus
HA: Yeah, that was
DK: After that
HA: Yeah, that was picking up prisoners of war, British prisoners of war and bringing them back to England.
DK: That must have been quite [unclear]
HA: Oh yes, yeah
DK: Yeah. What sort of shape were the POWs in?
HA: Oh, very poor shape, yeah. And then of course, I didn’t actually do any, but they were also dropping food to Holland at that time.
DK: So, you didn’t do any Operation Manna flights?
HA: No, no.
DK: And then you’ve got Cook’s Tour.
HA: Well, that was just a sort of swan around Germany to see what damage [unclear] you caused [laughs].
DK: And presumably that would’ve been the first time you’d seen the damage then, was that
HA: Well, you could see it in daylight, if you did the odd daylight trip, as we did, you would see [unclear]
DK: And did the Cook’s Tour event involve taking the people on the aircraft?
HA: Yeah
DK: The ground staff
HA: Yeah, yeah
DK: So you had a circular flight there
HA: Yeah
DK: Munster, Dusseldorf, Essen, Cologne, Munich, Glad, sorry, Monchen Gladbach, then back to base. So the war has come to an end then
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you do at that point then?
HA: I went to India
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HA: In India they were going to demilitarize the Air Force there and most of the aircrew were [unclear] obviously they were the war [unclear] at a close but on the other hand there was, the fight was still going on with the Japanese so to some extent they wanted to have aircrew out in the Far East to take over bombing of Japan if
DK: Right
HA: If it became necessary. And we went to India with that intention but in fact what we did was to demilitarize the Air Force and we had to, the way we did it was to get the [unclear] in groups and take their uniforms and that sort of thing from them, pay them and organize transport for them to get back to home
DK: Alright. So it’s quite a different
HA: Oh, quite different altogether, yeah
DF: So, you weren’t considered to be flying out operations against Japan then?
HA: No
DF: No
HA: No. The only aircraft that we had that could possibly have done that was a Lincoln at that time
DF: Right
HA: But the Lincoln hasn’t actually been put on the squadrons at the end of the war, they never flew during the war on operations in England or in Europe rather.
DF: So, the war is ended, so it’s 1948 now and you’re
HA: I’m back from India
DF: India and then you’re going to number 2 ANS
HA: Yeah
DF: At Middleton Ste George. Was it, did you make a decision then to stay in the Air Force?
HA: Oh yes, yes, I applied to join before, I forget what years it was but eventually I was signed on till I was fifty-five. I didn’t serve until I was fifty-five because there was a Labor government in and they decided that they wanted to reduce the number of people into services and so there was a redundancy scheme offered and because we had three boys, we didn’t really want the family split up which would’ve been if I had carried on the Air Force, they’d had to go to school, [unclear] live in the school somewhere and I’d have to [unclear] somewhere
DK: And can you remember what year it was you left then?
HA: Yeah, I left in, what year was that?
DF: [unclear], ’49, ‘53,
HA: What year I left the Air Force? Oh, ‘69.
DK: ’69, right, yeah.
HA: Yeah, ’69.
DK: So, you’ve now trained as a navigator then
HA: Yeah, at Middleton St George
DK: Yeah. Let’s go through this, so, number 201 AFS
HA: And I was back then on Lancasters
DK: And Wellingtons by the looks of it
HA: Yeah was, yeah that was to crew up again
DK: Yeah
HA: Cause I’d been on a different crew
DK: And then 1949 Lancasters again with 149 Squadron
HA: Yeah
DK: At Mildenhall. And by this time, you are a fully-fledged navigator
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. So these, some of the last Lancasters built, aren’t they?
HA: [unclear] what?
DK: Some of the Lancaster here, they’d be quite old by this time
HA: Oh yes, they would, yeah
DK: [unclear] crew here now, 1949 so Lancasters
HA: And
DK: So you’re with 149 Squadron for quite a while then.
HA: Yeah
DK: ’49. Then to the Central Gunnery School
HA: Yeah
DK: Lancasters again
HA: That was to get a qualification as an instructor on [unclear]
DK: So 1950 then you’re now on the Avro Lincoln
HA: Yeah
DK: What did you think of the Lincoln compared to the Lancaster, was it?
HA: It was bigger, better armed, cannons on the front, machine guns, but I don’t think, they were just a bigger version, that’s all [unclear] Lancaster I suppose
DK: So, then it was number 44 Rhodesia squadron at Whitten
HA: Yeah
DK: That’s Lincolns again
HA: Yeah [unclear]
DK: And then the 149 Squadron, the Washington conversion unit
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s August 1950
HA: Yeah
DK: And that’s at Marham
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what did you think of the Washington then?
HA: Oh, they were marvelous really cause they were, you fly unpressurised in them and they had a tube which ran from the front down to the back and you could actually bomb using radar equipment that was at the rear and you could actually guide the aircraft from the back
DK: Alright
HA: Using the radar target that you could see
DK: And that controlled the aircraft
HA: Yeah
DK: Is it true that B-29s had ashtrays?
HA: We didn’t [laughs]
DK: The Americans put ashtrays in the [unclear]
HA: I remember, we did use to smoke in there
DK: They had ashtrays. Were you impressed by the Washington then?
HA: Yes, yes, it was a big aircraft and carried a big load
DK: So, 149 Squadron again with Washingtons, right into 1951, so it’s mostly all training then
HA: Yeah, you could do the sort of flight you could do in a B-29 would last about sixteen hours
DK: Alright.
HA: When, there’s one in there, I think, sixteen hours we went there onto Africa and back non-stop
DK: You flew on the Washingtons for quite some time, didn’t you?
HA: Yeah.
DK: And this was all from the UK
HA: Yeah
DK: And then I see, so it’s 203 Squadron Coastal Command, then 236 OCU at Kinloss on the Neptunes
HA: Yeah
DK: So, what was the Neptunes like?
HA: It was good aircraft too, it was only two engines but it had [unclear] endurance, it did one time hold the record for endurance flying, the aircraft was called the reluctant turtle [laughs]
DK: That’s up to 1954 then when you
HA: Ah yes, I got commissioned in ‘54
DK: Ok, that’s, just one final question, just looking back at your time specifically with RAF Bomber Command in the war, how do you look back on that period now?
HA: I don’t think it ever, I mean, never, I don’t know, it never bothered me, you know, I read of some people getting bothered [unclear] about what you did and that sort of thing, it never bothered me, I mean, I was, I went through the Blitz in London, I was in the, we used to do fire watching and I remember London burning and when I was at, as a boy, you know, doing this office job as it were, we used to do at least one night a week fire watching and I can remember bomb was falling and terrific fires and we were putting these fires out, you know, and I remember one particular incident where sticker bombs fell into the water about a hundred yards away from us I think, but because they fell in the water there was no damage was done, you know, we didn’t get hurt but I mean, I had to [unclear] quite a lot from the Germans so I didn’t feel I was doing anything I shouldn’t do as far as I was concerned, I was defending my life and the life of my family.
DK: Ok, that’s great, we’ll stop there
HA: Ok.
DK: You’re absolutely marvelous. No, thank you very much for your time. It’s been wonderful, I think we covered everything.
HA: Ok [laughs].
DK: Just for the benefit, thanks very much for that.
HA: Do you
DK: There’s a notice here in the book. I thought you left the service at the time of the Neptunes but you went on, did you go onto the Shackletons after that?
HA: Yes.
DK: So you went to Guyana?
HA: Went to Guyana, yeah.
DK: And that’s cause it burnt down.
HA: Sorry?
DK: You said it was burnt down.
HA: Well the [unclear] Georgetown in Guyana was set on fire, yeah but the government decided, the British government decided they’d have to send troops out there
DK: Alright
HA: And so we carried the troops out there that meant these chaps we were taken out, had a very horrible journey because they had been taken from Ireland where we were based to [unclear], [unclear] down to Bermuda, Bermuda then out to Jamaica
DK: Right
HA: And then Jamaica to Guyana, all they had was a hard floor to lie on
DK: And that was on the Shackletons
HA: Yeah, you know, they didn’t have anything decent to lie on
DK: So what was the Shackletons like as aircraft [unclear]
HA: Well, they were really good aircraft, they did the job
DK: Yeah
HA: But I mean this was, they weren’t made for that sort of thing
DK: Yeah
HA: Carrying troops
DK: So, what was your normal role in Shackletons then?
HA: Again, I was first navigator on most of these trips.
DK: Alright. And that’s through the Cold War, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah
DK: You’re keeping an eye on the Russians.
HA: That’s right, yeah. And our sort of flying was, flying training was locating submarines and practice bombing them, that sort of thing
DK: Oh, right. Did you actually identify Russian submarines?
HA: Oh yes. Yes, you’d pick up a contact on radar and then you’d home into the contact and if you were lucky you’d probably find the submarine at the end, probably just diving, you know, realisng that it’d been found
DK: And would you make a dummy attack on it?
HA: Yeah
DK: Trying to go down
HA: There’s one trip we did in southern UK we came across about, well, I think there must have been about twenty Russian ships, a whole fleet in the Atlantic
DK: They didn’t ever fire on you then, did they?
HA: No, but they always turned their guns on us
DK: Alright.
HA: They were always pointing their guns at us.
DK: And you could see that [unclear]
HA: Yeah. We would never actually overfly them knowingly, just, we would just [unclear] round them
DK: So you went out to Rhodesia, was it Rhodesia then, wasn’t it?
HA: Yeah, we went down to South Africa
DK: Yeah
HA: And then I did quite a lot of flying from the Middle East when the [unclear] on
DK: Oman
HA: No, I’m sorry, my mind isn’t quite as quick as it should be. Cyprus
DK: Cyprus, yes, yeah.
HA: And then, there was some other in, where was that? Anyway, if you, it’s in that book
DK: Yes, it mentioned Oman here, yeah
HA: Yeah
DK: Yeah. And then later the government came along and [unclear] the redundancy
HA: Yeah, I joined Barclay’s bank then [laughs]
DK: So, you did almost twenty-seven years in the Royal Air Force
HA: Yeah
DK: And then ten years in Barclay’s?
HA: Twenty years
DK: Twenty years in Barclay’s. Oh right, ok. Good bank Barclay’s. [unclear] Ok, that’s great, I’ll [unclear], but thanks again for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Algar
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAlgarH170520, PAlgarH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:55:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Algar worked as an office boy at Hay’s Wharf in London before the war. He entered the Air Training Corps before joining the RAF when he was seventeen. Started his training on Tiger Moths but was then sent to Canada to remuster as a bomb aimer. Remembers travelling on the Queen Mary, where he was assigned to escort Winston Churchill, and his training in Canada on Ansons and Blenheims IV. After completing his training, he was posted to 463 Squadron (RAAF) at RAF Waddington. Describes his role and his duties as a bomb aimer. Remembers some of his operations: coming back from an operation to Poland targeting the German fleet, they encountered heavy fog and managed to land safely at Carnaby airfield thanks to the fog dispersal system; taking part at the Dresden operation on the 13th of February 1945; operation to Nordhausen on the 4th of April 1945 to disrupt V2 rocket launches on London. He took part in Operation Exodus. At the end of the war, was posted to India. After the war, he trained as a navigator and flew on Neptunes, B-29s and Shackletons. Remembers fire-watching as a little boy during the Blitz in London and tells of a bomb dropping a few hundred yards away from him, leaving him unscathed.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
149 Squadron
1660 HCU
29 OTU
463 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
FIDO
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Carnaby
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
Shackleton
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/888/11127/AHughesWH151021.1.mp3
33613f53da69484a983e122f2ed1e463
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hughes, Harry
William Henry Hughes
W H Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM (- 2023, 159079 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron and then with a Mosquito Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hughes, WH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: It’s all in the book, I think, mainly, isn’t it?
AS: Most of it is, but we need to get it on tape. I think. This is an interview with Harry Hughes, flight lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM, a navigator in wartime Bomber Command on 102 Squadron and then later on Mosquitos. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Harry’s home in St Ives. Harry, thank you ever so much for agreeing to this interview. Perhaps we can start by going over a little your early days. I believe, you were born in Dorset.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. Did you have brothers and sisters?
HH: A sister, yeah. But I went to school in Sherborne, the Grammar School in Sherborne not the big school, not the public school. And, it was a good school but there we are, I think it was a good school anyway but they’ve, in their wisdom they’ve closed it down now and they amalgamated with the Lord Digby school, ‘cause the Lord Digby school is gonna cost too much to repair or something and I think some builder wanted to get hold of their building anyway and make flats out of it. You know, usual thing.
AS: Yeah. How did you get on at school? What were your subjects? What did you do well at in school?
HH: Mainly in maths. I got a distinction in Maths and a distinction in Physics and Chemistry. Otherwise I got all passes except English language in which I got, I didn’t fail, I got a pass, just got a pass so I didn’t get my ‘tric. Did so⸻
AS: Sorry.
HH: Anyway that’s beside the point. Anyway I left there in 1940 and my very first job was a night watchman for some lady at Lewisham Manor near Sherborne, who lost all her staff and she wanted somebody to be in the house at night and to patrol the grounds. While I went round the grounds once, no, never again, it was too bloody scary [laughs].
AS: Things that go bump in the night.
HH: Yeah, there was hooting and things [laughs]. Anyway that’s beside the point.
AS: But this was 1940. Was this, was the Battle of Britain going on over your head or had that finished?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: What, was that what pushed you towards the air force or?
HH: No. Well, I think. Well, what pushed me towards the air force was the fact that I went, my father wanted me to join the navy and I, I went down to Portsmouth to sit an exam to be a writer or a supply probationer [unclear] his own clerk, and I didn’t fancy that, but anyway they gave you twelve blocks of pounds, shillings and pence to add up that way and then you had to add up that way and then you had to add them all up across and then the figure you got down here and the figure you got down here should have been the same. Mine was nowhere near. Anyway.
AS: But your maths were good so, you threw it really, didn’t you?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Did you deliberately mess up, because your maths were good.
HH: Yeah. Yes, I know, but not the accountancy type [laughs]. Anyway, we then, coming back on the train, I was pretty certain I’d failed, so, coming back on the train, I had to change at Salisbury and I had about an hour to waste, wait at Salisbury so I went in the town and I saw an RAF recruiting office. So I went in there and saw a sergeant there and I signed on for aircrew.
AS: Just like that?
HH: Yeah. And they took me on as a pilot or navigator and then I had to go to Oxford for attestation and I went there and with all the gunners from South Wales and what have you became gunners rather, from the mines, you know, and so that’s how I came to be in the air force.
AS: Okay. Did you go through the aircrew recruiting centres in London at Lord’s and?
HH: Yes, I was the first one there.
AS: Really?
HH: Very first one to go there, I think. In July ‘41, I suppose, yeah.
AS: That’s pretty early. What, what happened then? They’ve taken you into the air force at that stage, I suppose, you didn’t know what you were going to do.
HH: Well, we went to ITW and⸻
AS: Where was that?
HH: Down Torquay, which is very nice and, I’ve got my bloody reading glasses on, no wonder I can’t see, and then I was sent down to America to train.
AS: Okay.
HH: In the United States Air Force.
AS: Straight from Initial Training Wing.
HH: Yes. Straight from ITW. We didn’t get a chance. Later on they used to, they did a little course on Tiger Moths up on somewhere in the world, somewhere up that way.
AS: So, you hadn’t actually flown in an aircraft when you went to.
HH: No.
AS: How did you, obviously they wouldn’t fly you over, but how did you get across the Atlantic, in a convoy or?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. What was that called?
HH: I went out on a ship called the Highland Princess, which I ended up selling. I sold the Highland Princess, the Highland Brigade and the Highland Monarch.
AS: Presumably not during the war when you got there.
HH: No. Four of them, I sold them in about ’51, or ’52, something like that
AS: Okay. So, you’re going across the Atlantic in convoy. Was the ship crowded? What was the conditions like?
HH: Well, we were in hammocks, you know, on meat hooks in the, you hung your hammock on meat hooks in the lower hold, you know?
AS: Gosh.
HH: And we are right up on the stern of the ship because every time the, I think she was twin screwer if I remember rightly, because every time the ship rolled the prop shoot [mimics a sound] [laughs].
AS: Is that the prop coming out of the water?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh! Gosh, and so, there must have been hundreds of men on the ship with you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: All [unclear]
HH: The one thing you found out, you had to hang on to your four and a half hat because one went missing, what did he do? Go and pinch another one. So, it went all round the ship [laughs]. [unclear]
AS: Like measles, isn’t it? Yes, yeah, absolutely.
HH: Yeah, I remember that so, I hid mine, anyway.
AS: So, you went across in uniform with
HH: Yeah.
AS: Hundreds of other people.
HH: No, when we got to, we were being issued with, at Wilmslow I think it was in Cheshire, we’d been issued with a grey flannel suit to wear in America, ‘cause we all had to go down grey worsted suits, you know.
AS: Ah, ‘cause America wasn’t in the war then.
HH: ‘Cause they weren’t in the war then, yeah.
AS: Right.
HH: So, and so we went down to Maxwell Field in Alabama first of all for acclimatization.
AS: Wait, where did the ship come in?
HH: Halifax.
AS: Oh, so you landed in Canada.
HH: Went to Canada first, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: And then, I think, yes I think we were there, we were trained down to Toronto, I think, and then we went from Toronto down to Alabama, to Maxwell Field, to Montgomery, Alabama.
AS: Okay. Was the whole journey really well organised⸻
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: Or was is the usual service mess up?
HH: No.
AS: No. It was good?
HH: It was good, yeah, everything seemed to go to plan I think, pretty well.
AS: How were you received at Montgomery, at Maxwell Air Force base?
HH: Oh, pretty well. In fact, the very first Sunday we were there, first weekend we were there, the American officer came round and, when we were having lunch, and he said, there’s a fair in town at the moment and they’ve heard that you boys are here, so we’d like you, they’d like you to come along and be their guest. So we thought we were going there but no, it was a scam, we were all scammed out of our money. Yeah, so we woke up in the morning, everybody had lost all their money, it was a real American type scam you know and I saw a coach loading up with American service people all in uniform. So I said, ‘Where is this coach going?’ ‘Oh’, he said, one of them said, ‘We are going to a little village called Prattville just outside of Montgomery and we’re going to church and if we’re lucky we will get invited out for lunch afterwards.’ So, I said, ‘Can we come along?’ Then the three of us got on board anyway. And we went in and sang all the hymns [laughs] and, real gospel stuff too it was, yeah.
AS: Deep South, isn’t it?
HH: You know, happy happy-clappy type of fellows, kind of stuff, you know, and anyway afterwards all the American were all invited out to lunch and we were there, standing there, wondering what the hell to do, because it was a long walk back to Maxwell from Prattville ‘bout twelve miles I should think and then suddenly this lovely blonde comes up, she says, ‘You all from Maxwell?’ I said, ‘Yeah, as a matter of fact, we are.’ ‘Oh’, she says, ‘Matter of fact what sort of language is that?’ she says. ‘Well’, I says, ‘Well, you probably wouldn’t understand but we are English’ [laughs]. ‘Oh’, she says, ‘English, you are English?’ And she rushed around and she got all the Americans to cancel so that we were all invited to and she was a daughter of a, she collared me anyway and the other two were taken off somewhere else, I don’t know where. And then, we had lunch and her father was the local judge and he said afterwards, after we had lunch, he said, ‘I guess you would like to take my daughter out for a drive, would you? We gotta a nice Buick in the back. Buick with a steering column for your change’ and I didn’t even have a licence [unclear] never mind [laughs]. Never mind, and I got in anyway and I drove her out, bit of snogging and came back. And that was that and I never saw her again, she, I heard later she married an American navy pilot, who got killed in the Pacific. Yeah. So I could have followed it up if I wanted to but I didn’t but by that time I was back in Canada anyway.
AS: So when did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Well, when I go to, we went down to, we were posted from Maxwell Field down to Albany in Georgia to an aerodrome called Darr Aero Tech, that was the owner of the aerodrome, I think, Darr Aero Tech. And it’s still there, I was there not long ago. And so, I suddenly had to do a flight commander’s check and he decided, he decided to wash me out so I went back up to Canada and trained as a navigator.
AS: On the flying piece, how much flying did you do? Do you think it was fair that you got washed out?
HH: No.
AS: How did that come about?
HH: Well, they wanted, they, the Air Ministry wanted as many people washed out as possible who could train as navigators, bomb aimers and gunners and what have you. They weren’t too short of gunners but they.
AS: I believe you had an instructor with a German sounding name.
HH: Oh yeah. Schmidt.
AS: Schmidt.
HH: Yeah, that was a joke really. That was in the book, wasn’t it? Yeah.
AS: So maybe he sabotaged your flying career, your piloting career. So, I presume that a lot of people were washed out at this stage.
HH: They were, but [unclear] was never washed out.
AS: Wow.
HH: Over eighty percent. I know it was a whole lot of us came back. And on Pearl Harbour, the day of Pearl Harbour we were giving an exhibition rugby match in the town. And suddenly over the tannoy came an announcement that Pearl Harbour had been attacked by the Japanese and so everybody went home, they all packed up and went home. So we went home as well. And that night, I had a place I used to get under the wire and go into town at night, you know [laughs] and when I came back to get under the wire there was a man there with a gun [laughs]. And he was trying to shoot me because he thought I was a Japanese. He said, look mate, I don’t like your look, you look like a bloody Japanese [laughs].
AS: Did you go out of through the gate after that?
HH: No. Well, I didn’t bother after that.
AS: So.
HH: I went back, well, the following day we were on the train to go back up to Canada.
AS: Is that quick?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Flight commander’s test and then pack your kit and off you go.
HH: About for, about a week later I suppose I was back, I was on the train going back up to Canada. And it’s quite an experience travelling by train out in America, isn’t it? In those days with the dining cars and everything, and the bars and but we had to change, we were on what was called the Chattanooga Choo Choo, but going the wrong way [laughs]. We were going there, were going north but the Chattanooga Choo Choo goes, comes south, doesn’t it? But we were on that line anyway. And I remember we stopped off in Boston and we had a bit of a wait there so we decided to go into town, we never did see Boston because we got on the way into town, we got attacked by these Irish Americans.
AS: For being British?
HH: We had taken them into the war.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s our fault but [laughs]. And they were at war now. And they’d be getting called up and be killed. And then anyway we got away with that alright.
AS: You were physically attacked?
HH: Yeah, yeah. They had knives and God knows what. They weren’t very nice people. Anyway, I say Irish American but I imagine they were Irish Americans, being in Boston, wouldn’t you?
AS: Big population there, isn’t it?
HH: So, then I went to Trenton where I was interviewed by a group captain and he was Raymond Mass‘s brother.
AS: God lord, Raymond Mass of the Agfa?
HH: Yeah. It was his brother. He looked just like him too. Yeah. And.
AS: Was that a sympathetic interview?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: You wanted to be a pilot and then suddenly that stopped. Was the system generally sympathetic to you?
HH: Oh yes. So they were quite keen to take me on as a navigator. And so then I went from there to Quebec City, L’Ancienne-Lorette. And from there up to Rivers in Manitoba. Which was a dry town, that was, Prohibition there.
AS: Oh dear. Good lord.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Were you in uniform by this time? RAF uniform?
HH: Yeah. Wearing a Canadian uniform in fact [laughs]. They issued us with a Canadian uniform, which were quite smart actually. And they were very similar to ours but the cloth is a little kinder, shall we say?
AS: So, you’re in Prohibition and you went out, presumably looking for a drink, do you?
HH: Well, we knew that Mont-Joli was dry but there was a little, there was a port just down the river called Rimouski, which was a timber port mainly. I remember when I took my Institute of Chartered Shipbrokers exams, one of the questions was, could you explain what were the, how many and what sort of cargo was exported from Rimouski, well everybody else thought it was in Russia, didn’t’ they? [laughs]
AS: But you had a clear mental picture.
HH: Yeah, I’ve seen it. Anyway, we were trying to, we were drinking some, we went to a bar and we were drinking this clear liquid, we had asked for whiskey but they served us up with this clear whiskey, clear liquid and when we were coming back in a taxi we were, we’d had about two each of these, we were all very sick we had to stop the taxi we were really sick and we saw afterwards that [unclear] don’t drink anything that is given to you because there is a stuff called alcool which is made from wood alcohol and it’s can make you blind.
AS: It’s like drinking anti-freeze, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh, lucky escape!
HH: And so that was that. So then from Mont-Joli we went to the staff end course at Rivers in Manitoba which was astronavigation, advanced navigations course it was.
AS: What was the basic navigation course? What was your basic navigation training like? Was it mostly classroom or?
HH: A lot of in the air.
AS: What were you flying in?
HH: Ansons. Yeah. Mark 1 Ansons you had to wind up the undercarriage, you remember?
AS: Yeah. Did you take to it easily, to the navigation, because of your maths proficiency or?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: And you found it easy to be an accurate navigator?
HH: Yes, I mean, you’re training all the time of course and right the way through when I came home from Rivers, came home over on the Union-Castle ship, called the Cape Town Castle, which I didn’t sell. And, what’s the time?
AS: Now.
HH: [alarm clock rings] The taxi, yeah.
AS: Okay. We’ll pause at there, shall we? [recording paused]
HH: Yeah. Astronavigation course A and it was mainly a flying by using star shots yeah. But when I got on the squadron, I mean you had to carry about three sets of books, you know, and a naval almanac as well. Had to work out your star shots. But when I got to the squadron they had a marvellous bit of equipment, a little projector over the navigator’s tail [unclear], which about that high off the table and you had to measure it up with a special stick to make certain it was in focus and on this astrograph there was three stars you could use and, two stars rather, two stars plus Polaris you use to get a three star fix, and you worked out a datum point for the time before you, before you got airborne and drew it on your chart and then you lay your chart down on the table and lined it up with the astrograph and then this projected the position lines of these stars onto your chart. So all, so, the bomb aimer, all the bomb aimer had to do was to take the star charts, he was, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator anyway and I think he’s still alive, I’m not sure, and.
AS: So it was very much team work.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Between you and the bomb aimer but actually on astros. So, you, we jumped straight on to being on the squadron. Did you know, as soon as you started navigator training, that you would be going to Bomber Command?
HH: Well, it’s pretty obvious I would be. Yeah.
AS; Okay. And, so, you finished your training in Canada, came back to the UK by ship, and what happened next before you got on to the squadron?
HH: I went to [unclear], is it Cumberland?
AS: I think Scotland.
HH: Up near Carlisle, north of Carlisle then, between Carlisle and Keswick I suppose. And a little aerodrome there and we learned to fly in wartime conditions, you know, where the balloon barrages were et cetera. Where to avoid them.
AS: And is this when you stepped up from Ansons to bombers?
HH: No, no, this is still on Ansons. And then from there we went down to Hampstead Norris still on Ansons and then we went to Harwell, Hampstead Norris was a satellite of Harwell at the time and then we crewed up with our pilot and wireless operator, I think we already had a wireless operator and we crewed up with bomb aimer and engineer, no, no, we didn’t have an engineer at that time, this is on Wellingtons and.
AS: What were they like the training Wellingtons, were they in good nick, were they ropey old kites or?
HH: No, no, pretty ropey, they were draughty as hell, oh God they were draughty. The wind used to whistle through that fabric, you know. [unclear] construction, wasn’t it?
AS: What was, was there a step up in gear going on to heavier airplanes and operational tactics?
HH: Oh yeah, yeah.
AS: You are moving much more quickly in your calculations and navigation than perhaps when you were training?
HH: We did quite a lot of cross countries and Bullseyes we did in OTU.
AS: What’s Bullseye?
HH: Bullseyes we did down, we’d go down to, say the Channel Islands and experience a little bit of flak there and then we’d come back up again and fly across to Portsmouth or somewhere and fly across the coast there or else we’d fly, out to the North Sea towards Denmark and come back into Hull.
AS: So this was almost a simulated bombing mission, was that?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Training, for training. Okay.
HH: They were called Bullseyes anyway in cooperation with the army, I suppose, with the the ack-ack.
AS: So, when you’re at OTU, you’re on Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Then we went up to a place called Riccall in Yorkshire, near Selby, and we had to, we trained, we converted onto Halifaxes.
AS: What, can you remember what year, what month this would be when you?
HH: Well, that would be about Christmas of, just around Christmas in ’42, I suppose.
AS: Wow, so what type of Halifax would this be? The Merlin one or the?
HH: The Merlin one, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yes, so the Hali, Hali 1, what’s his name? Not Gibson, what the hell was his name?
AS: Cheshire?
HH: No. Gus Walker.
AS: Gus, oh yeah, yeah.
HH: He was a lovely man, Gus was, and he’d taken out, all the mid upper turret and the front nose cone as well, there is a very big heavy turret in the front nose and like the Lanc was, you know. And then, it’s pretty useless that front turret was but anyway. Then, eventually we got the Hali II.1 A which had a four gun [unclear] turret on the top, yes, same as on the Hali 3.
AS: So your mid upper then got his job back.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, Gus Walker he took these turrets out to save weight, to carry more bombs?
HH: To save weight, yeah. Just to save weight, to make it improve performance a bit. And get a better height. I better ring up my taxi.
AS: So, by taking the turrets off, Gus Water was giving his aircrews more of a chance really, wasn’t he?
HH: Yeah, but then later on they improved the, we still had the Merlin 22s, same as the Lanc had, you know. Merlin 22s, but the Mark II.1 A was a much better aircraft, you could get up to, you know, eighteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two thousand.
AS: Loaded?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Which is, you were at the same height as the Lancs. And the Lancs had the habit of dropping their bombs on you. Which happened on our very first trip. We went to, we were waiting to have a nice easy trip but no, we got Essen. And then, when we were over the, when we were over the target on our bombing run but a whole lot of bombs dropped on us, a whole lot of incendiaries dropped on us and the engineer and myself had to go back and kick them out the door [laughs] and which is good practice actually, because it happened to us again over Wuppertal.
AS: Really?
HH: But that time there was a, I think it was a two thousand pounder or a thousand pounder, I don’t know, and it came and took our port rudder right off, and the port tail and the port tail blade yeah.
AS: And what sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Mh?
AS: What sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Well, we found, she was, it was still flying alright but I found that we were crabbing a bit. And I remember seeing a light below and I said, take a drift on that, would you? And anyway we found that we were crabbing quite about ten degrees to port, I think, yeah.
AS: So you do all your sums again and take that out by adjusting the.
HH: No, I just took ten degrees off every course [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: That must have been quite a hairy landing I would think.
HH: No, [unclear], yeah. I can’t remember it being anything but normal.
AS: Wow.
HH: And when we got back, the little corporal in charge of our ground crew, he came out, what the bloody hell have you done to my aircraft! [laughs] as if it was our fault, you know.
AS: Did you fly your own regular aircraft that you got attached to?
HH: Yes, yeah. D, we always flew in D, until one time we let, we were on leave and I think it was an Australian pilot took it and he was very conscious of saving fuel. So he throttled right back coming back and the result was that the, when we went to run the engine up the following day, the engine started to shake, port engine started to shake and suddenly the prop came off and went right through where I’d be normally sitting and sliced my table in half, but I was in the rest position now for take-off you know.
AS: Wow. So that was one of your nine lives gone?
HH: Yeah. I tell that story I say, as you can see I’m still here [laughs]. I wasn’t sitting there at the time.
AS: So, did they repair the aeroplane or was that the demise of D-Dog?
HH: But that was it finished, D-Dog was finished then and we got the Mark 2.1 A then.
AS: Still as D-Dog or was there a superstition about that?
HH: No. We were still with D, yeah. But, Jackie Miles, he was our mid upper gunner, he was really pleased to get that. We got four guns, he was really happy [laughs]. But it was much safer to have somebody in a blister looking down underneath.
AS: Is that what he used to do before he got the target?
HH: Yeah. Yes, and he used to put it in his log book, duty, rear gunner’s me [laughs].
AS: Yeah. On, when you were on ops, had the idea of the bomber stream come in by then?
HH: Oh yes. Yes, we were on the very first time they dropped, the Pathfinders used Oboe on the Essen raids. I think it was first used on the 5th of March, wasn’t it?
AS: I don’t know, 1943. This was.
HH: Yeah, ’43, ’43 by this time, yeah.
AS: So, it was quite early on in the idea of the Pathfinders.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, you went on ops just as the stream and the concentration were starting to take place. I know you were deep in the bowels of the aeroplane at your navigation table. Did you, did the crew see other aircraft around them, feel the other aircraft around them?
HH: No, you are in the slipstream the whole time. Especially when you got near the target, when you’re on your final run, you sort of you feel the slipstream and you have got to remember that five percent of our losses were due to collisions, it has been estimated.
AS: That’s a high percentage.
HH: I think we were told that at the time to be extra vigiliant, you know.
AS: Against the dangers of collision. What about enemy aircraft on your first tour? Did you have any encounters with the German night fighters?
HH: Oh yeah. [unclear], he shot down two, he shot down a Ju 88 and an Me 110 I think it was, yeah.
AS: And this, this was your rear gunner.
HH: And he had a problem as well. A lot of Battle of Britain pilots would have given their eye tooth for a score like that. Probably would have gotten a DSO and a DFC.
AS: [laughs] there are a lot of unsung deeds in Bomber Command.
HH: Anyway then we finished up in October ’43 and I got sent up to 6 Group, it was a Canadian crew.
AS: With the Canadians. How did you?
HH: And they wanted everybody to be Canadians, you know. They didn’t want an English instructor so I got, I quickly got posted down to 3 Group. And
AS: Somewhere along the way you, you picked up the DFM. Was that during your first tour?
HH: Yes, was the first tour.
AS: And what was the story behind your DFM?
HH: I don’t know really. It’s not in the book even, not even in the, my citation is not there, there’s a book of DFMs in the RAF, book of DFCs and DFMs. And I think there was an Australian, called Cameron, he found this book of DFMs but I don’t know, I think Gus Walker probably. You see, I’d broken my left foot, I’d broken a bone in my left foot and what with having leave, we were due for leave I went on leave on with my foot in plaster, came back and had the plaster taken off and then I fell off my bicycle [laughs]. Didn’t help. So, the doc said, ‘Right, I’m going to keep you in hospital until your foot’s cured. I don’t want any arguments.’ And the following day Sam came in, he said, we are on tonight, [unclear] and they want me to take a spare navigator and I said, ‘No way, Sam, let’s go and see the doc.’ The doc was in a good mood ‘cause he was going on leave. So, have you read all this before?
AS: No.
HH: So, [pause] he said, ‘Alright you, you can go this time, but’, he says, ‘Provided you come back into hospital as soon as you get back. If you get back’, he said, ‘If you get back.’ So, he then went on leave. Anyway, I duly arrived at main briefing, done my navigation briefing, I think we came at main briefing and Gus Walker was on the door. And Gus said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m on crutches you see. I’m going on ops.’ And he said, ‘Why?’ ‘I don’t where my crew is going, I don’t want them to go without me.’ ‘Well, oh alright then.’ So I went in and we went to Berlin that night. And when I got back, Gus was still on the station. ‘Cause he was in charge of three squadrons, wasn’t he? Up there. And he said, ‘Right, young Hughes,’ he says, ‘I’ve been hearing all about you, he says, ‘It’s alright, I’ll take you back to the hospital myself.’ And then I got in his car and he tore me off a bit of a mild strip for being irresponsible and some of that and then as I got out, he said, ‘Bloody good show anyway, Hughes.’ And I think it was he who recommended me for a DFM, I don’t know, probably.
AS: Excellent. It’s a wonderful, wonderful story. What happened, you said, you tried the book in the RAF club to find your citation. Have you explored anywhere else, to try and find the DFM citation?
HH: I did write to some time ago, I don’t know, I think they did, you get from RAF records I think.
AS: Okay.
HH: Because I wrote to them the other day and asked them if, ‘cause I had a letter from them to say that I could retain the rank, substantive rank of flight lieutenant when I finished in the reserve and use the courtesy rank of squadron leader. But I’ve never used it. So I thought it would be a nice thing to have on my tombstone, so I wrote and asked them if that still pertained, shall we say.
AS: And you are still waiting for a reply.
HH: Well, they wrote back to me and said that I’d have to give them some more proof of who I was, you know, passports, et cetera so I sent them up a copy of my, one of my utility bills and my council tax demand.
AS: Well, hopefully that’s good enough.
HH: It only went off last week, so we will have to wait and see.
AS: You mentioned briefings. I know the targets were different and the weather was different, but could you give me some idea of an average preparation for a mission from waking up in the morning to taking off. Is that possible, that sort of things that?
HH: Yeah, because you went down to the, you went down to the flights and you stood in the apron outside the squadron offices and at ten to ten on the dot, if you were on that night, the phone would ring. You knew you were on that night then and then, but if you waited and waited until ten past ten the phone would ring again to say the squadron’s stood down by which time we had all disappeared ‘cause we’d all. Didn’t want to go to on a bloody route march or something [unclear].
AS: So it was all incredibly secret but the routine gave it away.
HH: Yeah [laughs].
AS: So if the phone call came at ten to ten, you knew you were on ops that night, what would happen then?
HH: Well I did, we’d go down to our aircraft and check all the equipment in it and then if necessary you take it up on an air test and then you were back on the ground again by, about eleven, eleven thirty, and then you’d either come back and go to lunch and or else you’d and then after you’d had lunch you’d go on for navigation briefing at about two o’clock.
AS: So the navigator was the first person in the crew to know where you were going, what timing was.
HH: Yes, we knew where we were going, yeah.
AS: Was that a very full briefing, with weather? Is this when you drew up your courses, you got your turning points and what not?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Was this a very full briefing?
HH: Oh yeah, well, the navigation briefing, yes, you got your various tracks you had to go on to and hopefully they’re taking you around the defended areas you know.
AS: The flak and the searchlights, yeah. Was there a lot of work involved for you to prepare your charts?
HH: Yes, it took quite a time. You were mainly with your bomb aimer to help you, you know. Harry Hoover, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator, he trained in South Africa I think.
AS: So, you two were the only ones that knew at the navigation briefing the target. Was it difficult to keep it secret from your skipper and your crew?
HH: Oh no, you didn’t have to keep it secret but you just told the rest of the crew where we’re going so all this business about being a gasp when they, when the curtains were pulled across from the map.
AS: Probably you already knew.
HH: We all knew where we were going by that time, at least my crew did.
AS: So, you’ve done your navigation briefing and what happened then? Just sit around waiting for the main crew briefing or did you have duties to do?
HH: No, we just, by the time you finished doing the nav, it’s about time for the main briefing and then having done the main briefing you then went for an ops breakfast. The ops breakfast, which was bacon and eggs, baked beans, all the things you shouldn’t eat.
AS: Baked beans?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’re flying at twenty thousand feet.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Oh, that could have been interesting. What was the atmosphere like? Was there a lot of tension? Was there a lot of horseplay? Was there a lot of fear? What was the atmosphere like?
HH: I don’t know, I can’t remember now, there was a feeling of are we gonna make it or not, you know.
AS: Was that a personal thing or something that you talked about with the crew?
HH: I would never, never, never, never, my mid upper gunner, he, one day, we were in our room, I shared a room with him and he packed up all his biscuits on his bed and folded up all the blankets and sheets. What are you doing that for? And he said, ‘I don’t think we are gonna come back. So I’m putting the things in order now.’ And he got all his paperwork out and everything, letters and everything to his wife and things.
AS: What did that do to your morale?
HH: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t very happy about it but it was a scrub that night anyway. Then he said, afterwards he said, ‘God, good job we didn’t go to [unclear] because we weren’t going to come back.’ He knew.
AS: But after that on future trips he was fine.
HH: Well, I said, ‘Don’t you ever do that again, Jackie, I said, ‘You never do a thing like that again.’
AS: Tempting fate. What about off duty, what sort of things did you, you guys get up to that you can talk about?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Off duty, did you get much time off to yourself? Or to yourselves as a crew?
HH: Yeah. We, I used to go out with, mainly with another crew ‘cause all our crew, our skipper was commissioned, so we were all and the rest of them, Jackie Miles he lived in Leeds so when he had an evening off, he went back to Leeds and the rear gunner was the same, he was somewhere just outside Leeds. Sam was from Leeds as well, the pilot, so it was only the engineer and myself.
AS: So you latched onto another crew for the,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The social element.
HH: Yes, [unclear] crew, yeah. I was pretty friendly with his navigator but he got killed.
AS: And did the rest of the crew come back?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And brought him back?
HH: They brought him back, yeah.
AS: Your, we were talking about your navigation training and astro, during your time, your first tour on ops, did you start to get Gee in the aeroplane or any other navigational aids that you used?
HH: We had Gee.
AS: You had Gee.
HH: Right from the start, yeah. We had the Mark 1 Gee which was, used to have to tune it, the narrow knobs on the side and you had to tune it to get a signal and it’s like tuning one of those. Televisions, you know.
AS: Keep wandering off. Did you, was it as a big revolution in navigation as people say?
HH: The Gee was, yeah.
AS: The Gee was, it really did make a difference.
HH: Yeah, well, it did make a difference because, but you didn’t get it beyond the Dutch coast, it wouldn’t work beyond the Dutch coast but you had we, well, you had LORAN later, in Mosquitos we had Gee and LORAN. In fact, it really annoys me now to hear the met men talking about the jet stream because we found the very first jet stream. I found a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots at thirty thousand feet.
AS: Tailwind.
HH: Hundred and ninety five knots and when we got back, I told the met man, I said, ‘I got a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots and you were forecasting forty five to fifty knots.’ He said, ‘I don’t believe it, I don’t believe it!’ So he went to Group headquarters and the Group headquarters said we don’t believe it. They went to Command headquarters and the met people up there said they didn’t believe it either. But then everybody else came back with these winds and they suddenly realised what was called jet streams but now they talk about jet streams all the time. And what they mean is where the warm front, the warm tropical front meets the polar maritime front and all the way along that you get depressions form and then, and with it you get this so-called jet stream would form as well. Ah, so which comes first? The frontal systems or the jet stream?
AS: Must be the fronts, must be the fronts. So, when you are doing your tour, you’d had the nasty experience of being bombed twice by your own people, probably 5 Group above you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Was that the limit of the difficulties you had? Was the aeroplane mechanically reliable or did you suffer?
HH: Oh, we, came back on three engines more times than we came back on four.
AS: Really?
HH: Yeah. I think we came back on three engines eleven times out of our tour.
AS: And what did your ground crew chief say to that?
HH: Well, it wasn’t their fault, necessarily, well, he didn’t think it was anyway.
AS: It’s just overstraining them, is it, full fuel, full bombload climb to heights. Coming back from the raids, what was your pilot like? Was he one of those that, wanted to pour on the coal and get home early or did he stick to heights and courses as briefed or?
HH: Well, he couldn’t do much else with a Halifax. But when I was on Mosquitos, with our New Zealand pilot, we were always first back [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: Becomes a matter of pride. On your first tour still perhaps we can talk a bit more about that. As you got towards the end, did the, you knew presumably you were going to stop on, what, thirty trips?
HH: Well, I did twenty six in fact.
AS: Okay.
HH: Which we were screened two trips early. I would have done twenty eight for my first tour, ‘cause the pilot had already done two second Dickey trips to start with. [door bell rings] That’s my taxi now.
AS: Okay.
HH: So I’ll just pause this. [recording paused] We were just talking about your tour length. The question I was going to ask is did you feel a real rising tension as you got towards the end of your tour?
HH: But we didn’t know we were towards the end, we thought we had another two trips to do.
AS: Okay.
HH: But, I remember Sam coming in and he says, ‘I have some good news for you, we’re screens and you’re off on leave from tomorrow. You are all going on leave tomorrow.’
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Mh?
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Ah, it was good feeling but I forget what happened now. When I was on Mosquitos I think when I was doing my last trip on Mosquitos ‘cause you had to do fifty on Mosquitos you see for a tour.
AS: So, you finished on 102 Squadron and were there many crews that went all the way through like yours did?
HH: No, not a great deal, I wish I had the [unclear] I’ve got it somewhere, might be in that case there, book of all the losses, you know. 102 Squadron losses.
AS: Oh, perhaps we can look at that tomorrow or now if you like.
HH: Well I, it might be in that case, I’m not sure.
AS: Let’s pause this and we’ll go and have a look. [recording paused]
AS: Harry, good morning, it’s day two of our interview sessions. It’s very good of you to agree to this interview. Can we start by going back to your first tour of operations during the Battle of the Ruhr on Halifaxes. Were you conscious at the time that this was a major battle or was it just one job after another?
HH: We were trying to hit Germany where it hurt, ‘cause we didn’t only go to the Ruhr and we went to places like Pilsen, and then we did Nuremberg and Munich and.
AS: Were you briefed on specific targets in these cities and told what you were going after?
HH: Oh, we knew that Essen was the Krupp works, yeah, and we were given a good, pretty good briefing by the intelligence officer what we were gonna hit because one time we went, we were going to. There was almost a mutiny one day because they were sending to some place I forget, Gelsenkirchen or somewhere, I forget where it was now, and [pause]
AS: What happened then? What was the mutiny all about?
HH: Well, the intelligence officer said that he didn’t know why we were going there, there was nothing there, there was just a spa town that we were going to hit but what we didn’t know, of course, it was a leave centre for the Gestapo and the place was full of the Gestapo officers and but you know initially we said, no, why are we going there, you know? And there was almost not exactly a mutiny but it was a fear of you know, why are we bombing this place, we probably would just hit a lot of women and children.
AS: So, this was 1943. So even at that stage.
HH: This is ’45. ‘43 rather.
AS: So, even at that stage there were some concerns amongst the crews about what you were doing and where you were going.
HH: Yeah, we didn’t, the Hamburg raids for example. That’s the first time there was a real firestorm and we went on three or four of those raids, I forget now, it’s in the book, Hamburg in July ’43. That book is falling to bits, isn’t it?
AS: Well, it happens to all of us, doesn’t it? As we get older. Here we go, 24th of July ’43 and the 27th of July ‘43. Ops Hamburg, yeah. And then the 2nd of August.
HH: Yeah, the 2nd of August when we, we’d already realised that the firestorms, you know, in then, we were dropping our incendiaries first and setting fire to places and then dropping four thousand pounders, two and four thousand pounders on top of the fires which, that’s why it’s called the firestorm, the blast from the comparatively thin-cased two thousand pounders and what have you, would suck in the air and the oxygen, you know, and cause these firestorms.
AS: So, the thin-cased bombs would blow the roofs off and then the incendiaries would go inside and.
HH: Well, you know, in that, wish I could find that, you could sit and watch that, the CD I’ve got somewhere in there of.
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Yes, the first or second of the Hamburg raids which caused the firestorm. And I remember watching this from over the bomb aimer’s shoulder and watching these fires spreading and I remember saying, I felt very sorry for the people down there.
AS: At that time.
HH: At that time, yeah. In fact I said a little prayer for them.
AS: Is this something you discussed with the crew or any of your friends?
HH: Not really, no. I just said a prayer to myself, yeah.
AS: And was that really specific to Hamburg or to?
HH: Just to Hamburg, yeah. ‘Cause that was where the firestorms first started. Well, it was worst then Dresden actually.
AS: I believe so in the numbers lost. So, your first tour was absolutely in the thick of what we call the Battle of the Ruhr and extremely, extremely difficult and dangerous missions.
HH: The people who came after me, they’d done Hamburg and the Battle of the Ruhr, and then they had to follow on doing the Battle of Berlin. You can find my very last trip was to Berlin I think, no, it was Hanover. It was one of my last trips was to Berlin, that’s when I went on crutches, yeah.
AS: Home on three engines, that one?
HH: Was that Berlin?
AS: Yes, 23rd of August. And then you did a Munich and a Hanover. What was Berlin like? Was it special, was it the
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was Berlin perhaps the best defended target? What was Berlin like?
HH: It was the length of the trip really. You know, on heavies, on Lancs and heavies it took us eight and a half hours there and back. What’s it say there? [paper rustling]
AS: Seven hours fifteen, that’s still an incredible time. People talk about eight hour days, and that was a full day’s work at night.
HH: Was a full day’s work was being shot at too.
AS: And, I mean, was Berlin the best defended target, do you think or was that the Ruhr, perhaps?
HH: No, I think, I don’t think it was as bad as the Ruhr but it was, there was plenty of activity there but mainly a lot of fighter activity there over the target, over Berlin.
AS: And you, you could see the enemy?
HH: Oh yeah. They were coned and searchlights one time I was on Mosquitos, there was two Mosquitos, an Fw 190, and an Me 109, all on the same cone.
AS: Wow!
HH: And there is a painting of that somewhere. I described it, you know. And there is a painting somewhere that is called Berlin Express. And [unclear] have got the original.
AS: Okay, I’ll look for that.
HH: [unclear] then.
AS: Okay. Some trips to France as well. Le Creusot. You weren’t after a saucepan factory there were you, what was, can you remember what that trip was about?
HH: Oh yes, that was, they were manufacturing parts for tanks and things, I think.
AS: Gosh, here, after Le Creusot, Muhlheim, home on two engines.
HH: Yeah [laughs]
AS: What’s the story behind that? Did they just pack up or was it flak or?
HH: Yeah, they just packed up on us yeah, these Merlins were you know they were way overstressed on the Halifax and we came back on two on that occasion, yeah.
AS: After a lot of, after the Hamburgs that we talked about and Berlin, Munich. Now, can you remember that trip? September ’43 to Munich.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First off, first back, in your log book, eight hours, fifty five minutes. Did the stream hold together, the bomber stream hold together over these long distances?
HH: Yeah, you we were all given certain times, you know, you had to be at certain times on all the way along the track, at the various turning points, you know. And I think it did help, you know, no doubt about it and then with the advent of Window of course, it just threw their ground tracking, we had a little device, did I tell you, a little device called Boozer in Mosquitos.
AS: No, you didn’t, no.
HH: We had a little device which, when they were tracking you from the ground, a little yellow light used to glow. But when they were tracking from the air, a red light used to glow. And one night, we were coming back, and somewhere around about the Hamburg, sorry the Bremen Hanover gap, and this red light came on very bright and we knew the red light meant we were being tracked from the air you see. And then suddenly over the top of us, about the height of this building, just came two, I think they were Me 263s,
AS: The jets?
HH: The jets, yeah. Right over the top of us. And they didn’t see us. I got a photograph of a Mosquito somewhere I don’t know what she’s done with it now. I meant to ask her that when she was in last night.
AS: No worries, maybe today. So, this, the 262s had the speed, they were the only ones with the speed to catch you, really.
HH: Yes. They were doing about a hundred knots faster than us. Fifty to a hundred knots faster than us. And they just sailed over the top of us and disappeared in the distance. There were four jets, two of them.
AS: So they had radar airborne in the jets.
HH: Yes.
AS: That is a pretty dangerous development, isn’t it? That was another one of your nine lives gone, really, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Your slices of luck. Back to your first tour, you, when did you come off ops?
HH: I went to a conversion unit, at a place called Wombleton.
AS: Okay, was that Stirlings?
HH: No, it was Halifaxes actually but.
AS: Okay.
HH: Canadian group, they are mainly on Halifaxes.
AS: In 6 Group, how did you get on with the Canadians?
HH: Not very well.
AS: Really?
HH: No. They are very, they didn’t want to know us, you know, they just wanted to get rid of us as quickly as they could.
AS: I’ve heard this that they were running,
HH: They wanted to run their own show.
AS: [unclear] as part of the Canadian.
HH: I remember getting one crew and I said, I wanted to send them back for further training because the navigator was absolutely hopeless. He really was, he couldn’t, it was like putting, I don’t know, he was thick as two planks, he couldn’t. So, I said if you’re sending this crew with this navigator they don’t stand a chance of getting through, not a chance at all. They’ll be shot down on, within their first five operations, they’ll be shot down.
AS: And do you know whether that came to pass?
HH: No. They didn’t like this, you know, the fact that I’d criticised one of their Canadian crews and I was posted down to 3 Group and, which suited me, and the crew got to squadron, got to a squadron and they did one trip and got hopelessly lost and I heard it afterwards that the CO of the, I think it was Lane, what was his name? Lane. He said, what the hell are you doing sending us crews that are, they should have been send back for further training. And I had recommended that.
AS: Had you been commissioned by this point?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: I was commissioned at the end of my first tour, I think.
AS: What sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: Pardon?
AS: How did, what sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: I just had an interview, I don’t know, who I had an interview with now, I can’t remember. And I mean after the interview I was then a pilot officer but I was a flight sergeant before and my pay was sixteen shillings a day as a flight sergeant but as a pilot officer I was only going to get fourteen and four pence a day. So they said, oh, we can’t have that so they gave me a six pence rise, six pence a day rise so I was getting fourteen and six a day as a pilot officer. And then eventually when I was a flight lieutenant after a couple of years, I was out in India by that time, and I got, well I was on Indian rates of pay anyway so, it didn’t factor.
AS: Back to the instructing. You finished an operational tour, had some leave and presumably your crew dispersed.
HH: Yeah. Pilot went to Rufforth converting many French Canadians and to go to Elvington, French, I mean French crews rather, French crews to go to Elvington, to 77 Squadron.
AS: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew members after?
HH: I came up to York a couple of times and met Sam, Jackie Miles I used to see and my gunner and Harry [unclear] the, the last time I’ve heard from him, he was up at near Shrewsbury.
AS: You all went to instructors jobs, do you?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did they teach how to be an instructor or did they just send you off?
HH: No, I just went in and just talked to them and told them where they were going wrong, you know, and how to waste time and things like that.
AS: In the air this is.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, did you do any formal classroom training of these chaps or was it just, what, supervising in the air and on the ground?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Supervising?
HH: Yeah, just going through their logs and charts individually with them and showing them where they’d gone wrong.
AS: And I believe the same sort of thing used to happen on ops, that when you came back your nav leader would go through your charts, is that right?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: They’d assess your, that’s the assessment on each one there.
AS: That we saw before.
HH: The little design on his wall, Charlie had, he had sort of a little square beside each one of you and you had two dots for very good, one dot for reasonably good, no dots at all for
AS: Average.
HH: Just average. Yeah.
AS: That’s his way of keeping track. So, on 3 Group, is this when you went to Stirlings? When you were training?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When you left the Canadians and went to 3 Group, that was, what was that, Stirlings, was that the Conversion Unit there?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yeah, it’s down at Chedburgh.
AS: Okay.
HH: And, yeah, Chedburgh, near Bury St Edmunds. There was a beer drought down at that time and we used to cycle miles to find a pub with beer [laughs]. Then we’d keep very quiet about it [laughs].
AS: It’s not too bad.
HH: Me and a Canadian called Connors and we wanted to, we’d heard about that 8 Group wanted Mosquito pilots and navigators, so, we both applied to go, we both applied to go back on ops together. So, our first application, we were turned down because, being in 3 Group on Stirlings, you know, they were rather short of crews, and so we were turned down anyway. So we waited a couple of weeks and we applied again and we got turned down again. So that night, I got a tin of black paint from the stores and I wrote a message, a letter on the ceiling of the mess to the group captain, quite a polite letter, would you kindly pull your finger out and get us posted back on ops. We’re fed up with this instructing so could we please get back in so and so and signed it Connor and Hughes. The following day we were up in front of the old man and he said, ‘Right, you’re both going back, no way you’re going on the same crew or on the same squadron. In fact, you go back first, Hughes. Connor will follow you in about two- or three-weeks’ time.’ And this is what happened.
AS: It’s amazing. So you weren’t actually instructing for very long, were you?
HH: No, from October until July, so I suppose six months.
AS: Okay.
HH: And you’re supposed to have six months, at least six months rest, you know? From operations. Between tours.
AS: Okay. And then, in July having arranged your own posting really, you arrive at 1655 MCU. What’s MCU?
HH: Mosquito conversion unit.
AS: Okay.
HH: At Warboys, yeah, and Weston [?].
AS: I imagine this must have been a completely different sort of navigating. Was it?
HH: Oh, just very quick, but you, you wouldn’t think it now but I was very, very neat and tidy in what I did. I knew exactly, I used to keep my pencils in my flying boots, my dividers as well, [unclear] my Douglas protractor I kept in my hat with my dividers, which was behind me and my Dalton and, and then we used to take as your [unclear] fix, as soon as you got airborne, you got to operational high I’d take fix, fix, fix, every three minutes, then work out a tracking ground speed wind velocity and then another three minutes later another fix, a nine minute tracking ground velocity plus the sixth, the latest sixth one and another one, further on, six, and I can tell you exactly which way the wind was going, how far out the met was on their winds.
AS: And these fixes would be visual fixes or Gee fixes or both?
HH: Gee fixes.
AS: Gee fixes.
HH: So I’d take fix, fix, fix, you worked really hard to get the timing, you know, of the.
AS: Whereabouts was the Gee screen in the aeroplane? You were sitting on the right in the [unclear]
HH: I was sitting on the right and the Gee was behind me and LORAN as well.
AS: Okay. So.
HH: Gee and LORAN which was behind me.
AS: So, could you operate the equipment with your harnesses done up?
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: ‘Cause you just turned your head and⸻
HH: I just turned my head. It was just like there, behind me, there, but I could turn easier then and it was there, you know, just behind about there, about that angle to me.
AS: And it is just, as you say, second nature, three minutes, three minutes.
HH: It didn’t take long to take the fix but it took a long time but we, we had charts with the letters, lines of the Gee chart superimposed on top of it. So, this really worked very well.
AS: So, what came up on the Gee screen? What allowed you to compare the screen to the map?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the presentation on the Gee screen? What actually came up? Was it numbers or?
HH: Yeah. Well, you just, you could, you worked out, you knew what, you strobed the whichever signal you wanted to take, you know, and then you, you strobed the two of them and then fix and then you just read it off.
AS: I guess it’s, so you gotta an alphanumerical printout did you virtually.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Wow. So that could be done quickly.
HH: It’s quite, it’s very quick to work it all out, yeah, to work it out to get, to actually calculate the winds on your Dalton.
AS: How did you operate at night, because I imagine you had no lights in the cockpit?
HH: Well, we had enough.
AS: Okay.
HH: We had a red light and then, what’s his name? Anderson, our group navigation officer, he found that red, you couldn’t see the red markings on your chart. So, that was all orange and green.
AS: Which was easier to see.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. So, when you’d done your Mosquito conversion unit or at the Mosquito conversion unit, you must have crewed up with a pilot, how did that go?
HH: Well, I had already wanted to fly with this Australian so, when this New Zealander came along, I thought, he’ll do, I crewed up with him.
AS: As simple as that. And did you do, did the aeroplane Mosquito take some getting used to it, so different from a heavy bomber, with different performance and.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: What was she like to fly in?
HH: It was nice and reasonably fast. And I don’t think you really noticed it until you were doing some low flying.
AS: Shall we take a pause there? Okay. [recording paused]
HH: The Mosquito was, it was terribly difficult for a navigator to get out of.
AS: Why was that?
HH: Well, you had to, first of all you had to get hold of your chute and you kept that on, then you had to jettison two hatches to get out,
AS: Underneath.
HH: Underneath, yeah. Slightly forward towards the nose, yeah. And but by which time your pilot probably gone out of the top and you were spiralling down and the chance of you getting out was pretty slim.
AS: This hatch underneath must have been very close to the starboard propeller.
HH: Yes, we, yeah. Yes, it was quite close, yeah.
AS: Did you practice this on the ground a lot?
HH: No. I don’t think they thought you were, it was worth the risk. But the, a friend of mine used to fly with a man called Gill and he went down, got killed, Ronnie Knaith went down with his aircraft, and Gill got out and came home and he went to see Ronnie’s parents and they just slammed the door in his face, they wouldn’t talk to him. ‘Cause they had thought that he’d should have stayed onto the controls until Ronnie got out. Which is really what one was supposed to do.
AS: I hadn’t realised that the drill for the pilot was to go out of the top.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Because there’s a tailfin behind.
HH: Yeah, you jettison, you jettison the hood I think, the whole hood went. And theoretically the navigator could’ve gone out after him, I suppose, but.
AS: I think overall the losses were less on the Mosquito.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: I think you were safer flying in a Mozzie than in a Halifax.
HH: Yes, I mean, there’s somewhere I got the losses in Hamish’s book, in Hamish Mahaddie’s book, all the losses in 8 Group and you will see that 692 do feature quite regularly, you know.
AS: Yeah, so you were posted to 692 Squadron after the conversion unit. You’d had, I suppose, eight months away from ops by then, ten months, had things changed a lot in that time?
HH: I don’t think they’d changed all that much for the heavies, no. And we operated separately and we used to do Window opening for the heavies, we used to do, we used to fly out with the heavies and used to meet up with them at Reading, they’d all congregated there, what’s that? There is something squeaking, did you hear?
AS: I don’t know, let’s pause the tape.[recording paused] Well, Harry, we discovered what the squeak was, it was the smoke alarm. We were talking about Window opening and you meeting the heavies over Reading.
HH: Yeah. We used to fly down with the and meet up with the heavies and then we’d weave in and out of them, stream, you know, and you could see the strength of the stream then because, you know, there was just a whole block of them all over the horizon.
AS: And these are daylights.
HH: Yeah, in daylight, yeah, it would be. And then somebody in one of the heavies would be signalling to us, you lucky bastards or words to that effect. So I was sent back, been there, done that [laughs].
AS: Fair do’s. Because you could fly a lot faster and a lot higher than they could.
HH: Well, we used to be, weave in and out of them, you see. And then, then when you got to the coast, you climbed very rapidly above and you got to your operational height. If we were going to say, if we were Window opening say for Stuttgart, we’d probably do a, you go to Cologne first and drop a few bundles of Window there making them, making them think that was the target, you see. And then we’d go along to wherever, Stuttgart, and where the main force were going, and we’d, we’d do Window opening for the first wave of Pathfinders going in.
AS: Okay. This was the, was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Yeah, well, we were the light night striking force, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: But our main role was to bomb Berlin every night.
AS: Oh, you were involved in this Berlin shuttle?
HH: Yes. So, we used to drop our cookie, we used to drop Window for the heavies and then we’d go along to Berlin and drop our four thousand pounders, keep them awake.
AS: Ah, so, did you have those special Mosquitos then?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Those with the pregnant bomb bay?
HH: That one there, isn’t it?
AS: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, who got to drop the bomb? Was it you or the driver?
HH: Me.
AS: You.
HH: Yeah. Unless we were doing low level. And even then it was me up on the front, up in the nose.
AS: How did you, how did you drop Window from a tiny little aeroplane like Mosquito?
HH: We had a chute, little wooden chute which used to go through the two doors and we just dropped bundles of Window through that. Remember to grab the string as it went down, otherwise you’d just drop bundles [laughs].
AS: You don’t want them falling on someone’s head and hurting them, do you?
HH: No [laughs]. So, it’s a nice day now, isn’t it?
AS: It’s wonderful out there. It’s great. So, sometimes you were operating with the main bomber stream and sometimes as 8 Group by yourself or squadron by yourself?
HH: Individually, yeah.
AS: Individually too?
HH: We used to fly, we used to sing, I made up, there was a song going round at that time sung by Hildegard, I walk alone, to tell you the truth I’ll be lonely, I don’t mind being lonely, when my heart tells me you are lonely too. So, I made up the words for our squadron, we fly alone, when all the heavies are grounded and dining, 692 will be climbing, we still press on, it’s every night, though they never will give us a French route, for the honour of 8 Group, we’ll still press on.
AS: That’s fantastic.
HH: It’s always a [unclear] no matter how far, one bomb is slung beneath, it’s twelve degrees east, one engine at least [laughs]. It’s a pretty horrible little song.
AS: it’s brilliant. It sums up what you felt.
HH: Not as good as some of the songs, you see, erks used to make up in India and down in Burma, you know. One they used to sing, rotting in the jungle, on a [unclear] marshy shores, dysentery, malaria and bags of jungle sores, living around in a bloody great heap, our beds are damp, we cannot sleep, we’re going round the corner, we’re going round the bend, two trips to Meiktila, maybe three or four, AOL’s a keen type, he thinks we’re doing more. When we get back as you can guess, we’ll put this effing kite US [laughs] and we’re going round the, and there’s about two more verses to that, I can’t remember, that’s when the mail arrives, and there’s two for you and f.a. for me you know [laughs].
AS: I think we will have to try and get you a recording contract. This could be an excellent CD on the wireless.
HH: I don’t think they’d allow it to be broadcast.
AS: Probably not, probably not. But see, you, it sounds as you had very high morale on the squadron.
HH: Oh yeah. But, yes, this was when I was on ferrying.
AS: And on 692, as you say, opening with Window and then lots and lots of trips to
HH: Berlin.
AS: To Berlin. Did you ever get involved in a double trip, I believe some people, some crews did two trips to Berlin in one night.
HH: Yeah, we did, on one occasion we did. I think we did Duisburg in the morning and Berlin that night. Came back, and refuelled and bombed up again and we were away again.
AS: There must have been, I would expect, a cumulative tiredness at that level of operations. I’ve seen your ops on your second tour are very close together.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First of October, third, fourth, fifth, two on the fifth, very, very very close together and then Berlin followed the next night by Cologne. Did you, were you conscious of getting tired?
HH: Well, no, because when you’re off, you went into town and into Cambridge and I met up with my girlfriend and she was lovely, my girlfriend, I must have a picture of her, I did have a picture. She was beautiful, she was lovely red hair and creamy skin, you know, and green eyes, oh, she was beautiful. I used to walk down the street with her and everybody would stop and stare, at her, not at me [laughs].
AS: I was going to ask that. And you met her when you joined the squadron?
HH: When I joined 692, yeah. Yeah, we were walking, you remember, do you remember the Red Lion in Cambridge?
AS: I don’t know Cambridge well. I know where the airfield is.
HH: There used to be a passage where you could go through, you’d start off in the Baron of Beef, down by the river there and, and then you go from there to the Bun Shop and to get to the Bun Shop you have to walk through the Red Lion right, right the way through there, the foyer, there is a bar, two bars there and when I walked through there one night, there was Red sitting there with two of her friends and as I walked through, I said, ‘Cor’ to who I was with and I caught red hair and no drawers, and I said, ‘I’m in’ [laughs]. And she followed me through to the Bun Shop and that’s how I met up with her [laughs].
AS: Excellent. Probably best not pursue that story too much further, I think. So, you’ve got here on a trip to Berlin, landed Woodbridge. Now⸻
HH: Yeah.
AS: I know that Woodbridge is one of the emergency landing grounds.
HH: Yeah, well we, very often we had to land, when we took S-Sugar, which is a bloody awful aircraft with a terrible fuel consumption, if we took that to Berlin, we would end up, always end up landing short of fuel at Woodbridge. In fact, one night, when Harris was on this station, we were the only squadron operating that night, so he came to our briefing. [phone ringing]
AS: I’ll pause there. So, after the phone call, we were talking about S-Sugar and its ability to drink fuel.
HH: Yeah, on this night Harris was at the and [unclear] Northrop, our CO was reading out the battle order, you know, and he said, came to, flying officer Mormo, S-Sugar, ‘S-Sugar?’ said Roy, ‘What’s wrong with our Robert?’ ‘Well, that’s got a mark drop on the starboard engine, you’re going to have to take the spare.’ ‘But S f for Sugar, sir, that bloody kite flies like a brick shithouse!’ [laughs] and old Harris was standing there, and he was trying his best not to laugh, you know, his moustache had a twitch and [laughs] you could he’s gonna laugh every minute, you know. But he didn’t, he held it in [laughs]
AS: What was Woodbridge like? Is an emergency landing ground very different from a normal airfield?
HH: Oh yeah, you, huts with the roof off, you know, half off and snow would come in, on a snowy night, yeah.
AS: Not finished?
HH: No, they had just blown off. That’s a nuisance that thing, isn’t it?
AS: Your smoke alarm, yeah. As we got to this time or you got to this time in the war, this was late 1944.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Had the scene changed in terms of aids to navigation, things like Sandra lights and Darky and ground organisation, was there a lot to help you?
HH: [unclear] Much on the ground I think, mainly H2S, Oboe, things like that, you know. And G8, wasn’t it? G8.
AS: G-H, yeah. I didn’t, I don’t know how that worked, I never had that but we were quite content with LORAN. In fact, I got a wind over, going down to, I forget where I was going, Berlin I suppose, but yeah, we were going over to Berlin I think and I got a wind just north of the Ruhr, a hundred and ninety five knots.
AS: Wow!
HH: And what we’d done, we hit a jet stream, you see, and but when I came back, I said to the met man, I got a wind of a hundred, impossible, impossible, impossible, and it went to Group and Group said impossible as well, went to Command and Command said impossible well then when everybody started to get them, they suddenly realised there was something in this jet stream. Now they talk about nothing else but the bloody jet stream and it annoys me that because they ignored their existence during the war, the met people did and we kept telling them, look there is something up there and it didn’t last very long, you see, you were in it and then you were out of it, you know. So you couldn’t use it as a general wind to carry on to Berlin, shall we say for example, and nor could you use it when you were coming back. You might hit it again but it’d be in a different place slightly and.
AS: It must have meant that you had to be on your toes with your fixes all the time.
HH: Yeah. Anyway we,
AS: In your logbook, it suddenly goes from duty as nav to duty nav b. What was the significance of?
HH: Well, I stood in as bomb aimer as well.
AS: Ah, okay, that’s what it was. Tremendous number of operations over the winter of ’44-’45.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So I presume you must have flown in most weather with the nav aids that you had.
HH: Oh yeah, I remember one night, I don’t know if I should say this because it’s a bit derogatory to somebody who’s now dead, and that’s to Don Bennett. He was in the control tower on this particular night and we were getting hoarfrost all along the wings of our, as we taxied out we were getting hoarfrost develop all along the wings, so Roy got onto control and he says, ‘Could we have the de-icing bowsers out, please?’ And Bennett said, ‘Never mind about the de-icing bowser, just get off the deck.’ Well, we didn’t go, we said, ‘No, no. It’s too dangerous.’ Anyway, another aircraft came after us and they ploughed into the end of the runway and they were both killed of course when their bomb blew up. And Bennett never said a word to us afterwards, he was, we came back for briefing that night and he’d left the station. We came back and got the de-icing bowser and got cleared of the hoarfrost. He literally left, you see. And then we went to Berlin that night, I think.
AS: I should think, with fuel and a four thousand pounder you must have needed all the runway to get off.
HH: Yeah, well, there is another tale attached to that, the, you see, we started off with four thousand pounders, I think we were the first squadron to have four thousand pounders, and then they put fifty gallon drop tanks on each wing which were increased eventually to seventy five and then a hundred and then, and then we ran out of four thousand pounders and we had to borrow four thousand pounders from the Americans, which were four and a half thousand pounds. So another five hundred pounds to get off the deck. But the old Mozzie just used to take it all in its stride. No bother.
AS: You had no concerns.
HH: No, and I remember one day when I’d finished tour. I was sitting in the crew room minding my own business and the CO, a Canadian called Bob Grant came in and he said, ‘You doing anything Hughes?’ I said, no. He said, ‘Grab yourself a ‘chute would you and I’ll see you out at the aircraft.’ I said, ‘What do you⸻’ ‘Just bring a local Gee chart and local maps, would you?’ So when I got out to the bay, they were loading a four thousand pounder and I said, ‘Well, what fuel have we got?’ ‘You’ve a got full load of fuel and two hundred gallon drop tanks.’ And there’s a wind blowing right the way down the 330 runway which was fourteen hundred feet or something compared with two thousand feet on the main runway. I said, ‘What are we gonna do then?’ He said, ‘We’re gonna see if we can get off with this wind, the scale blowing, see if we can get off on this, on the fifteen hundred runway.’ So, we got to the end of the runway, and he waited until there was a gust of wind blowing, until the airspeed indicator was indicating about fifty or sixty knots. And we went. And I dropped the cookie on the live bomb target in the Wash and then we came back. And he got a report and said it wasn’t possible. I said, ‘Well, thanks for telling me.’ [laughs] it wasn’t possible. And he said, ‘No, no, no,’ he said, ‘I don’t think the crew, you could expect the whole crew to wait’, the whole squadron rather to wait until there was a lull, that’s turned till there was a gust of wind which would get them off the deck.
AS: It’s a good example of leading from the front though, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Doing the test himself.
HH: It was old Bob Grant, he’s dead now, he married a Yorkshire, he was CO of 105 Squadron, amongst other things and he was, when he got back to Canada, of course he was made up to brigadier, I think. He was a group captain here, so he was a brigadier. That was equivalent to air commodore, wasn’t it?
AS: I think so, yeah, yeah.
HH: I don’t know.
AS: And, ah, there it is Group Captain Grant, 19th of March 1945, bombload take off fourteen hundred yards. That was pretty much the end of your operational flying, I think, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: On the Mosquito. Last trip, February, February ’45.
HH: Hanover, wasn’t it? Or Hamburg, Hanover.
AS: Frankfurt, I think, Frankfurt in your log. And did you know that that would be your last trip or you’re just told you’re screened?
HH: Yeah. You knew you had to do fifty on Mosquitos. So.
AS: And what did happened after that? Did you go back instructing or?
HH: No, no, we were sent on leave and when we came back, we’d been posted, several crews had been posted down to Pershore to ferry Canadian built Mosquitos across the Atlantic. And I crewed up with a different, Lloyd had gone back to New Zealand and he used to fly with Air New Zealand after the war. And thanks to me, because someone had put a bottle through his hand and all the tendons had gone. And so he couldn’t, when we were taking off at Whiten once doing a cross country, we got airborne and suddenly the throttle went back and he grabbed hold of them and held it with his hand and because you had to keep the throttle up so loose ‘cause of this weakness in his left hand. So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what we’ll do, Roy, from now on I’ll tighten the throttle knot for you when you’re ready. As soon as you want, you just say, throttle knob and I will reach through and grab the throttle knob and turn it and tighten it for you.’ And we did that every trip. And but I, ‘cause I had to reach over, I couldn’t strap in, so I did all my trips without strapping in [laughs]. I never strapped in again, not with Roy flying. So he’d of never, I mean, he was flying with Air New Zealand afterwards he’d never have passed their medical if he’d of disclosed it, you know.
AS: But eventually, not in a Mosquito, but he’d be flying with throttles on the other hand, wouldn’t he? So the problem,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The problem would go away. So you’d had some leave, you were posted to fly to Pershore to fly Mosquitos.
H: Yeah. And we were sent on indefinite leave, Pershore sent us on indefinite leave. And I thought, oh God, I’ll be grounded for sure. So, I got on a train and went up to Air Ministry and saw a wing commander there and I said, look, there is a war going in in the Far East [unclear] aircraft ferried out there, coming back for maintenance and what have you. And he said, what a good idea, you know, come back in the morning, will you? And I got the whole lot posted out to the Far East. Fifteen or eighteen, I think I told you this before, didn’t I?
AS: I think so but we didn’t get in on the tape, I don’t think, no.
HH: No.
AS: I bet you were popular.
HH: Fifteen, oh God, when I got down to Lyneham they were moaning, ‘I’m just due for demob for God’s sake, why the heck do I have to, due for demob any day now.’
AS: I bet you kept quiet.
HH: And here I am, so I kept very quiet. And so, I mean I wasn’t due for demob for some time.
AS: So here we are, Lyneham in July ’45. A huge trip as a passenger on a deck. Thirty two hours flying.
HH: Yeah, back to Karachi, yeah.
AS: So by going, going East, you, did you, before you went, did you see, did you go on any of these trips over, over Germany to see all the destruction?
HH: No, no.
AS: Okay.
HH: I missed all that.
AS: You’d said earlier that you said a prayer for the people of Hamburg. What, at the end of the war, did you reflect at all on the, or during that, on the bombing? And what were your feelings about being involved in it in the war?
HH: Well, I’ve spoken to our vicar about it, you know, and said, do you think Saint Peter’s gonna let me through the gates? Or not. So she sat and he said a prayer for me. Lady vicar of course. Anyway, but I was invited out to Hanover as a guest of the mayor and the local newspaper to commemorate the 60th anniversary of when we bombed them.
AS: And you went?
HH: So I went over, yeah, well, I was asked to volunteer and I remember, at the Bomber Command meeting they said, did anybody go to Hanover, I said, well, I did. When I got home, I found out I’d been to Hanover about eleven times and [laughs] so I was well qualified.
AS: And are you pleased you went, did it turn out well?
HH: Yes, they were very, very, very nice, I like German people.
AS: So do I.
HH: I got two of them coming over now. Here any day now. I think. They stay up at [unclear] castle, ‘cause he’s paraplegic, he can’t get down my steps.
AS: Yeah.
HH: He’s, he had polio when he was a youngster. But they come over by air this time so he couldn’t bring his invalid scooter with him so I don’t know whether he’s gonna hire one when they’re here or not, I don’t know what they’re gonna do to get around.
AS: That should be possible, I think.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And these are friends you made when you went to Hanover?
HH: Yeah. Well, they were both reporters with the Hamburger Allgemeine. And anyway I was, the last day I was there in Hanover I was there for about three or four days, I had to attend a meeting of all the survivors from the raids and all the students from university there and the colleges and what have you and a little girl gets up and question time you see and she gets up and says, can I please explain what was the duty of the navigator? Well if you ask me a stupid question like that, I’m gonna give you a stupid answer, for sure. So I said, ‘Well, the reason why we carried a navigator, because we had to have someone on board who could read and write’ [laughs] and their mouths fell open, he went like this, everybody, so I said to my interpreter, I said, ‘Tell them, it was a joke, will you?’ ‘Ah, a joke, yeah, we got no sense of humour, we Germans, we’ve got no sense of humour at all.’ [unclear] So then, later on somebody, one of the survivors said, ‘Why did you bomb the city?’ So I said, ‘To be perfectly honest, we couldn’t hit anything smaller but just remember this,’ I said, ‘Right in the centre, almost within half a mile from the centre of Hanover there was the biggest rubber factory in Germany, so it made Hanover a very legitimate target.’ ‘Yes’, this man says, ‘But you didn’t hit it, did you? ‘Cause it’s still there!’ [laughs]. I said, ‘Well, and you tried to tell me that the Germans got no sense of humour?’ [laughs] And then I was on their side from then on.
AS: I’ve lived there for eleven years. I’m with you. I’ve lived there for eleven years.
HH: Have you?
AS: Yeah. They’re great people, great people. I think.
HH: In which part were you?
AS: I was in Munich for five years.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And then in Bonn and Cologne, in the Rhineland for about six altogether. Some of the places you visited by air, in fact. That’s the feelings of the Germans. How, there’s been a lot of controversy about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Have you got any views on that?
HH: Well, I think, first of all, we should never, never have bombed Dresden, I think that was the biggest mistake we made. And Portal should have stood up and said, no! But he didn’t have the guts to do it, he didn’t have the guts to stand up to Churchill and it was Churchill who, on his way to Yalta, he stopped off at Malta, And they’d agreed to bomb five cities within reach of the Russian lines, you know, and I think Dresden was one and what’s that? And Leipzig and one other I think. Anyway he sent back this signal to Portal saying, from Malta saying, where is my spectacular, get on with it. So, Portal looked at the charts and he consulted the Met people and the only target available that night was Dresden. I didn’t go to Dresden, I went to Magdeburg, Magdeburg that night, you can see it on there, in that book there.
AS: You believe it was, that Dresden was the turning point and that?
HH: Mh?
AS: You believe that Dresden was some sort of turning point?
HH: Yeah.
AS: How Bomber Command were treated?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you, do you feel now that it’s changed with the memorials and the clasp?
HH: Yeah, I think so. I think, there was a time just after the war, when the people who were against us were the people who were in the Air Force or in one of the forces and they felt that we were, they didn’t want us to have any publicity, you know.
AS: After the war.
HH: Yeah. And then, and then since then, they’ve suddenly realised that you know, we had the highest losses of any unit in the, our forces, fifty five thousand killed, which is quite a lot, wasn’t it?
AS: Yeah. Fifty five thousand, five hundred and seventy three.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’ve seen a, well, or you see a change in attitudes now.
HH: Yes, I think, younger people are much more inclined to want to hear about it and talk about it and understand why we did it and there is no good saying, well, we were under orders to do it, because that’s what the Germans excuses were, you know, for their treatment of the in the concentration camps. We were under orders.
AS: And you did it because it was right?
HH: Well, we did it because we thought we were, ‘cause we were shortening the war and therefore less people would be killed.
AS: Is it, I agree, you say, that now people want to hear about it, is it good for you and other veterans to be able to talk about it after all this time?
HH: It’s getting more and more difficult, there’s so many books have been written on there, now.
AS: And you are actually in one of the books.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Steve Darlow’s book. How did all that come about? Did you get involved with him?
HH: I don’t know. He wanted, I think I was recommended by probably Bomber Command, you know, Dougie Radcliffe.
AS: Oh, the Bomber Command Association.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Have you always played a big part in that?
HH: No, no, I was mainly in the Pathfinders Association.
AS: Oh, okay.
HH: We were separate from, we were separate from the Bomber Command Association, but I’d already joined the Bomber Command Association when we disbanded. I’d already been a member for several years.
AS: And do you belong to your squadron or 102 Squadron association as well?
HH: Yeah. Yes, it’s, I’ve written a letter to, when I went to the VJ-Day celebrations⸻
AS: Yes.
HH: We had to fill out a form travelling expenses and I got three hundred pounds from the Lottery Fund.
AS: Excellent.
HH: And my son Jeremy, who’d driven me up there and then he got three hundred pounds as well. And I don’t, I hope he hasn’t. So I wrote a letter to the Big Lottery and said, thanking them for their, I said, so, twice a year I’ve got to go to, up to Pocklington in Yorkshire, which is rather expensive for me now ‘cause you got to go up Virgin cross country you know, right the way up to York and it’s a long journey that. It’s an interesting journey but there’s no, there was a little old lady pushing the tray along, pushing the trolley along, you know, that’s all that you get to eat with some coffee and a fruitcake or something.
AS: It’s not the same as a full dining car.
HH: I like the dining cars on, I’m going up on the 22nd of October I think, coming back on the 23rd, I always travel back down on the dining car which, on a train with a dining car which leaves at seven o’clock in the evening.
AS: Do you still have wartime comrades that you’ll meet in Pocklington?
HH: Oh yes, yeah. Most of them are dead now but.
AS: So, a lot of reminiscing and’
HH: Yeah. There’s a friend of mine, who was a previous chairman, Tom Wingate, who, he wrote a book called Halifax Down, ‘cause he was shot down on his second tour, and I used to have a copy but I can’t find it now. I don’t know what I have done with it, I lose things all the time now.
AS: I have a copy at home, I can send you one.
HH: Pardon?
AS: I have a copy, I can send you one.
HH: You got a copy of that?
AS: Yeah, I have.
HH: Halifax Down, yes, it’s not a bad book, actually. Except that he joined the squadron the same time as I did, his crew did. And he’s quoted in his book, as if he was there three or four months before me. He’s quoted various trips and he’s got these out of those old war diaries, wish I could find that. I wonder where I put it?
AS: Well, you’ll have to take your logbook the next time you meet him.
HH: Oh no, he’s dead now.
AS: Okay.
HH: That’s why I’ve taken over as chairman.
AS: After you came off ops, you did this trip out to the Far East, did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: In what?
AS: Did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s quite a lot really. My very first trip was down to Akyab, on the Arakan coast. I think I told you, didn’t I?
AS: Yes, but not into the tape. So, what happened on that trip?
HH: I don’t think that particular trip’s in there, actually, I looked for it the other day and I can’t find it. I must have left it out for some reason.
AS: This was the trip with the Japanese.
HH: Yes, all the way around us were Zeros, you know. We could hear them yacketing away and then this Indian crew comes on with their Hurricanes and the Japanese just disappeared.
AS: What was the radio conversation about with these Indian squadrons, red flight?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the radio conversation story about the?
HH: Oh, well, the Indian crews? ‘Yes, red leader to yellow leader, how do you read me, over? Yellow leader to green, you are not red, you are green, you know? Red leader to yellow leader, I am not green, I am red. And this Aussie voice comes up by the blue, you are black, you bastard’ [laughs].
AS: So, it’s still a combat area that you’re flying replacement aircraft I suppose in to the squadrons?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you get involved in flying damaged aircraft for repair?
HH: Oh, I used to fly back from say Kamila or with two Pratt & Whitney’s engines in the back and a load of ENSA girls as well amongst them [laughs], sitting where they could and trying not to get greasy, ‘cause these, and yeah.
AS: Yeah. Shall we, pause there I think?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And wind it up. Thank you that, It’s been absolutely wonderful to hear.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Hughes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWH151021
Format
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02:28:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hughes volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1940 and trained in America, where he was washed out as a pilot and then retrained as a navigator in Canada, flying Ansons and Wellingtons. In 1942 he converted to Halifaxes and flew operations with 102 Squadron over Germany, being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal for flying an operation to Berlin whilst on crutches. He recounts the routines of preparing to go on operations and his use of navigation aids including Gee, LORAN and later, Boozer in Mosquitos. He was bombstruck twice during operations. He completed 26 operations including the bombing of Hamburg which he describes as a firestorm and recalls saying a private prayer for the people of Hamburg below. After his tour finished, he then instructed before applying to go back on operations with 8 Group, flying Mosquitos with 692 Squadron and dropping Window for Pathfinder forces in 1944/45. In 2004 he visited Hanover and discussed the raids with survivors of the war. He was a member of a number of post war service associations and kept in contact with his crewmates.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Southeast Asia
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
1945
102 Squadron
3 Group
6 Group
692 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Anson
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
faith
Fw 190
Gee
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
incendiary device
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 262
medical officer
meteorological officer
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
promotion
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Harwell
RAF Riccall
RAF Wombleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/896/11136/AInkpenH160712.2.mp3
769d6de8ba72622ffed198bb128df8ce
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Inkpen, Harry
H Inkpen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Harry Inkpen. He flew 33 operations as a pilot with 162 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Inkpen, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anne Brodie, the interviewee is Harry Inkpen. The interview is taking place at Mr. Inkpen’s home in [redacted] Ryde, Isle of Wight, on the 12th of July 2016.
HI: Thank you. Right.
AB: If you’d like just to tell us a bit about your service in the RAF?
HI: Now I talk now? What do I do, talk now?
AB: Yes, you can talk in there, and then it’s hearing there.
HI: It’ll pick it up?
AB: Yeah. It’s picking it up. I can see.
HI: Ah yes. I joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and that was one of the headquarters with number 8 group based in Huntington, Cambridgeshire and the commanding officer was Group Captain Don Bennett, subsequently he was an air vice marshal but he was a remarkable man, not only was he an ace pilot but he was a remarkable navigator in his own right. We started to, the operations with my navigator for our first tour together. The tour was supposed to be thirty five attacks on Germany. In the end, we only did thirty three, because the war ended in April and we were two short of the target, not that that mattered, but we joined 162 Squadron, a Mosquito squadron for markers for Pathfinders and we operated from Bourne in Lincolnshire, that was the aerodrome, and we shared the aerodrome with 105 Squadron, another Mosquito squadron who were master, master markers, they marked the target before we went in. The, when we were first into the Mosquito, as a pilot I fell in love with the aircraft because I’d never seen such a beautiful thing in my life. It had two Rolls Royce engines and the body was all wood and it was called the wooden wonder because it was a real wonder. I think the top speed, straight level, was four hundred and fifty miles an hour. In that day, that was very fast and this was how we had no defence against enemy fighters because we relied entirely on our speed and nothing could catch us. The German Air Marshall Goering was our main enemy, he was, they were very, the Luftwaffe were very, very good but our, really our very worst enemy was General Winter and that was the weather. Because from 1944 to over into ‘45 the weather was atrocious, on our operations, the thirty three trips we did we never lost, personally we weren’t even harmed on those trips but we had terrible troubles with the weather. And our number 162 Squadron, if I remember rightly, never lost an aircraft over Germany, but we lost twelve aircraft on take-off and landing because of ice, snow, fog, et cetera and that was our real enemy. The, can I pause there?
[recording paused]
AB: Okay [unclear].
HI: Of the thirty three raids that we did, Joe and I, seventeen of them were onto Berlin and Berlin, we never talked about Berlin, it was called, it was called the Big City, we used to say, we are going to the Big City and it was seventeen times we went there. It was very well defended because as the war was drawing to a close, it was in the last six months and Germany was being forced back towards Berlin, all of their anti-aircraft guns, all their searchlights, most of their defences were concentrated on Berlin, so when we were told it was a Berlin night, we knew we were in for some fight. They were very clever, the Germans, they had, they could pick us up on radar and on our instrument panel there were three little lights, if one of them, there was two red lights and a white light, if the red light first came on, it means the radar was actually picking us up, if the red light came on, it means the actual guns were firing and within a few seconds there will be a burst and if the white light came on there was a fighter on your tail, which was very, very helpful, now I only had once, when the red light came on, and the immediate action to do was to turn away smartly and drop down and just above you would be the bursts of the anti-aircraft fire, very clever and I only once had the white light came on which was when a fighter was on your tail and the only fighter that could catch us was the new Messerschmitt 262 which was a jet aircraft, now he could, he could catch us easily, he actually had to throttle back so that he could stay on our tail, now he got on the tail, the white light came on and the tracer went over the top, ‘cause immediately I dropped down and the tracer went over the top so that was really the only problem we had with the defences but the, so if you got caught with the searchlight it was rather remarkable, they had four blue searchlights around Berlin, North, South, East and West and the blue searchlight was radar controlled, if it came on, you could look on the end of it and there was an aircraft, it picked it up straight away and then all the other searchlights were white and they were called the slaves, that was the master searchlight and the white lights were the slaves and they then came right onto the plane, now once only we happened not, we weren’t personally caught but one of the slaves caught us in the light, it was a remarkable experience because one moment you’re in total darkness and the next moment you’re in blinding light and it is blinding light and the only way out of that is to go down straight down the searchlight so when it, when we were in this terrible light, I went straight down it to about five hundred miles an hour and then pulled up and lost it but quite an unusual experience and the other amazing experience was coming back from Berlin when we had dropped our bombs and we got as far as Hanau, H-A-N-A-U, which was a fairly big German city and they had some, a few good defences but we were roundabout thirty thousand feet, that’s nearly six miles high and quite unknown to us, both of the engines stopped, now if you can imagine, nearly six miles high an engine stopping, that is something very unusual, now not only did the engine stop, but the aircraft flipped over and it dropped from thirty thousand feet to eighteen thousand and not because of me but my hand was on the throttle and actually hoping to God the aircraft would come back again the engines and suddenly they came on and the relief was unbelievable and the power of the engines shot us forward, my navigator had disappeared down at the bomb bay and he came up rather shocked and I said, ‘I can’t believe it, Tom, we’re flying’ and the aircraft righted itself and flew on and we stayed at eighteen thousand feet and came home. Now, how that happened we checked afterwards to think what could possibly have stopped two Merlin engines and the current thought was that there’d been a burst of enemy anti-aircraft fire, a big burst and it had left a vacuum in the air and we had flown into the vacuum and because the engine could not get oxygen, the engine stopped and that was, that was the technical reason, the explanation but I was only too happy to say we were alive and home. And that was another remarkable explanation. Now the other, I’m telling you the highlights not the general, just run of the mill but the other experience we had, we got as far across the North Sea on another occasion and as we’d been two and a half hours away, by the time we got to the English coast, the North Sea fog had slowly crept in and the whole of the east coast, all the aerodromes were blotted out with ground fog which came up to a thousand feet, we went down to a thousand feet and we were completely blotted out in fog, we got through on the radio and from Bourne and they told us we must go to a nearby aerodrome thirty miles away which was not clear but it had FIDO on the aerodrome, F-I-D-O, and that’s Fog Instant Dispersal Operation and it’s, there’s two lines of metal strips running down the airfield perforated with flames coming out and it burned the fog away and it was quite remarkable, they gave us a course to this aerodrome and as we were going through the fog, which was grey and white, grey and white colour, as we got nearer to the point where we knew the airport should be, it started to turn yellow and then it turned bright yellow and then we realised we must be right over the aerodrome but we couldn’t see it, but what I did, I did a four minute time course on instruments to go round the airport and coming in on my last leg, I lowered down to five hundred feet and at five hundred feet suddenly the fog stopped just like, as if somebody had lifted a cloud and right in front of you was the airport with these two strips of flames, now these flames were six feet high each side and we landed, you could feel the heat, and there was a few gaps down the side where you get off and Joe said, ‘For God’s sake, don’t swerve’ because we should be roasted because we’d have gone into the flames so we found a gap and got off and the first time my navigator really any showed any great emotion, he just put his arm on my shoulder, he said, ‘Thank God we’re down’, I said, ‘Joe, I couldn’t agree with you more.’ And after that, we went in and saved the night and forgot all about it. Can I stop there for a bit?
[recording paused]
AB: Right.
HI: Aircrew are very suspicious, superstitious people, they’d all have some little gimmick that they carry with them, hoping it might give them some luck, in my case, on my right hand, I always wore my father’s gold ring, and on my left hand, I wore a silver ring which I had made from a silver dollar in America where I was learnt to fly in 1941 I gave an Indian, Navaho Indian a silver dollar and said, would you make me a silver ring?
US: [unclear]
HI: And that and he did and that flew with me and my father’s ring all through the war, all through the operations against Germany and I think it did me very, very well. In the case of my navigator, he was a bit of a lad on the ground was my navigator but in the air he was a remarkable man and quite so capable that I had fully reliance on him and what he did I saw he had something round his neck when he was flying and when I looked at it I said, ‘What’s the scarf you’ve got on then?’ No, no, no,’ he said, ‘That’s a petticoat.’ I said, ‘Oh yeah?’ ‘Yes, a silk petticoat, it’s a blue silk petticoat, and it’s from my current girlfriend’, and he said, ‘I always fly with that.’ I said, ‘I’m so pleased you got something to hold onto even if it’s only a petticoat’, well, halfway through the tour, I then noticed it wasn’t a blue petticoat, but it was a yellow petticoat, and I said, ‘You know, what’s the change of colour?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘We had a little bit of a tiff, and I’ve moved on.’ So that was why, that was a little bit of unusual thing,
US: [unclear]
HI: About superstitious [recording paused]
HI: When I think that there was, in Bomber Command, those terrible losses, all of those fellows on average would have been carrying something and all those little gifts and [unclear] had gone forever and never been recorded but in my case they did me a favour,
[recording paused]
HI: As far as I can remember, because security was so great in the war, nobody said anything about anything but as far as I know 162 Squadron was, the Mosquito squadron that I was on was the only one that never actually suffered a loss through the enemy, we suffered a twelve, a loss of twelve crews through bad weather, fog, ice, snow and crashes, particularly running short of fuel and going into the North Sea and but we only lost through, purely through weather, bad weather and the weather was so bad, up to nowadays people wouldn’t be flying in it, they wouldn’t be allowed to fly in it but in the war, you didn’t question it, if you flew, you went and that was it, that was, that’s and therefore I can’t remember hearing of any other Mosquito, Pathfinder Squadron who actually lost a plane over Germany, they all lost through bad weather.
[recording paused]
HI: Okay, we are now talking about the last leg into the target, which had to be very accurately flown because the bombsight in the nose of the aircraft was pre-set before the actual aircraft took off, so in the, on the bombsight, if it was Berlin, let’s say it was set at thirty thousand feet and the speed had to be four hundred and fifty miles an hour, the wind had to be, already been calculated, that was put into the bombsight and heading for the last leg, say had to be three hundred and sixty degrees, now all that was actually put into the bombsight before we took off but on the last leg into the target, when the navigator went down to drop the four bombs, which were incidentally were four five hundred pound bombs, he had to know bomb is watch, exactly the time when he pressed the button and said, bomb’s gone, because it was dictated by the bombsight, we were, what we were doing exactly what the bombsight told us to do and that was most important, we actually dropped four five hundred pound bombs, three of them were instantaneous and the fourth was had a twenty four hour delay on it, which was a hope to confuse the enemy when they were trying to clear up that another bomb went off but when they were released and you lost a thousand pounds worth of bombs, the aircraft would jump quite visibly and it was a very pleasing sight.
[recording paused]
HI: To qualify for Mosquitos, certainly for Bomber Command, you had to, a pilot had to have a minimum of a thousand hours flying experience and also had a very high instrument rating because as everything was at night you’d require, you relied entirely on instruments, you you must have an absolute trust in instruments to qualify for this and that’s why it was very difficult to get on to a Mosquito squadron but I was very, very happy that I did because it was an experience I’ll never forget and those qualifications came in very useful in the end, also my lucky rings were a bit of a charm,
[recording paused]
HI: In the Air Force were really going back to school because you were always in class, always learning navigation, mathematics were very high on that and aircraft recognition, firing guns, all all ground work and studies took quite a year on the ground and then suddenly you were selected for, to be a pilot, which was the what you were trying to get to and been aiming all the time, when you, when you became selected to be a pilot, you, they put a white flash in your helmet to designate that you were a pilot and not anybody else and then of course we were sent over to Canada and we went from Gourock on the Clyde out into a troop ship, which was SS Louis Pasteur, which was commandeered from the French, we pinched one of their liners, and we ‘propated it into a troop ship, we went up by via Greenland to try and avoid the submarines and then ended up in Halifax near Brunswick
US: Nova Scotia.
HI: As a gathering point and from then on we moved into New Brunswick to Moncton, New Brunswick which was for pilots only, selected for pilots only and the destination from there could only be Florida, South Africa or America. Now, everybody wanted America because, number one, America hadn’t actually entered the war, we were still at war with Germany but, they had never declared war on America so we were sent down by train right down the Saint Lawrence to Toronto, then on to the East Coast line, the West Coast line to Texas, through Texas to Arizona to the little town of Mesa, Arizona, which is an offshoot of Phoenix and Mesa was where the aerodrome was. And of course, we were, there was only fifty of us, fifty English boys, all in civilian clothes because we weren’t allowed to wear a uniform, we were we were entered as visitors and treated as visitors so to get us a training at that time they wanted fighter pilots because it was 1941 and we were seconded to the American Army Air Force as a fighter pilot under training and that was only for a few days and in December, the 8th my birthday, Pearl Harbour happened, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and America, and then Germany declared war on America, and at that point we were allowed to have uniforms flown down from Canada and suddenly we became air force people and not civilians and then we went to the English British Flying Training School at Mesa, Falcon Field and we were trained there as fighter, to be fighter pilots and my instructor was a civilian, American civilian, he’d been a crop-duster, he’d been an aerobatic pilot in air shows and he’d signed on with the Americans to train pilots and my fortune was that he trained me and he was old enough to be my father and to me, I respected him as my father, and that man taught me to fly and he did me the biggest favour anybody can ever do, and he got me solo in six hours, which was almost a record, but he’s taught me always, because I taught thousands of people to fly after that, and he always taught me to tell them, when you step into an aircraft, you become part of the aircraft, you are not an alien, you are part of it, do exactly what you do with it and from then on I used to tell everybody the same story, and that man taught me to fly, now when I eventually went solo at six hours, we passed on to advanced training to really high quality Harvards and then that was the end and we were told we had our wings, we were made sergeants and we, they pinned the wings on our chest and we were on our way to go home to England. And of course I went back to Canada and this time still to Halifax and this time we got on the troop ship called the Duchess of Atholl, and she was nicknamed the Drunken Duchess because she was a pretty bad ride, she was a luxury liner commandeered as a troop ship but she was pretty rough and we had a very rough passage going over, we went as far as we could up to Greenland and back to Europe but on the way back, we sunk the, had four destroyers as escorts personally for our boat and they left us and went off to laying minefield, depth charges in a circle, and I witnessed the most amazing thing because all these depth charges exploded and suddenly a submarine appeared in the middle, they’d actually got him and when he, when the submarine appeared, every gun from every ship fired at this because they were so delighted and they sank the submarine and after that, we went on quite peacefully to Gourock and from then on we went to Bournemouth, you know that was another point, and there we were sorted out into groups, they’d suddenly realised in 1942, they didn’t want fighter pilots, so we’d been trained as fighter pilots, so here we go, what are we gonna do? So they selected, were you good at instrument flying? Yes, okay. So then, I then went on a course on twin engines because they wanted bomber pilots, so when I did the course on twin engined Oxfords they realised, I did a lot of night flying, and they realised I was fairly good on instruments and also they thought, I could well teach people to to actually fly at night so then I went to Upavon on Salisbury Plain which was the Central Flying School of the RAF and that dated back to the First World War and the mess there had a big fire in it, in the fireplace and over it was a vast propeller and it was from a Zeppelin [unclear] shot down at the First World War, so that was the Central Flying School of the RAF and I had to pass through that to become a flying instructor. When I became a flying instructor, I was sent to Flying Training Command which was at South Cerney in Oxfordshire and South Cerney was the base but they had many satellite aerodromes which were all training aircraft for Oxfords, twin engine aircraft and from then on I trained people on twin engine Oxfords at night flying so I gathered a hell of a lot of night flying hours and hence a lot of night night instrument flying and in that time I was quite a few years with Flying Training Command doing just that, I had one slight respite when I was taken away to train people to fly Horsa gliders, for God’s sake, and they were army officers or army sergeants drafted from the army to just learn to land an aircraft, that’s all, you had to take them up, show them how to take off, but they wanted to know when you cut the engine, how to glide because they were going to be glider pilots and for about two months I trained people to fly that, just fly the Tiger Moth and glide till they knew the angle and from then on I moved on from there back to Flying Training Command and then to twin engines but for me in that little period they took me to Brize Norton and let me actually get in a glider, a Horsa glider so I had the experience of being co-pilot in a Horsa glider with thirty five men in the fully armed back and a landing jeep and a machine gun at the back of me and I remember being towed up by a Lancaster and then at the point of return everything suddenly went silent, the nose dipped and the aircraft took a very steep dive, I reached about a hundred miles an hour and all I could think of was thirty five men in a jeep and a gun in my back and are we gonna land alright and he made a perfect landing and that’s the first time I’d ever been in a glider but I had the experience, I think that was it. So, you see, it’s varied.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Inkpen
Creator
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Anne Brodie
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AInkpenH160712
Format
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00:31:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Inkpen joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and flew 33 operations on Mosquitoes as a pilot on 162 Squadron. Tells of how, in his view, his squadron had more losses because of bad weather conditions than because of encounters with the enemy. He flew 17 operations to Berlin and talks about the German defences and searchlight organisation. Recounts a harrowing experience of the aircraft’s engines suddenly stopping while returning from Berlin. Tells of aircrew superstitions: he wore his father’s ring as a lucky charm; his navigator carried a silk petticoat. Remembers being caught in fog returning from an operation and managing to land thanks to FIDO. Recounts travelling to Canada and America, where was trained as a pilot. Mentions the sinking of a U-boat on the way back from Canada. Remembers training army officers to fly Horsa gliders.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
162 Squadron
4 BFTS
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
British Flying Training School Program
FIDO
Horsa
Mosquito
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Bourn
RAF South Cerney
searchlight
submarine
superstition
training
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dirks, Heino
H Dirks
Heinrich Dirks
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Heino Dirks (b.1922), a German firefighter at Jever airbase.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-26
Identifier
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Dirks, H
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Heino Dirks
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Airplanes, Military--Accidents
Fire fighters
Germany. Luftwaffe
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Schulze
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-26
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:03:27 audio recording
Language
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deu
Identifier
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ADirksH160626
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany--Jever
Germany--Hamburg
France
Belgium
Germany
Russia (Federation)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln. For more information please visit https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items-not-available-online
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Heino Dirks recounts his younger life in Jever, his experience as a decorator's apprentice in Wilhelmshaven and his service as a firefighter at Jever Airbase. He recollects the crash of a 37 Squadron Wellington R3263 when on duty and his efforts to extinguish the fire. He chronicles his military life in the Luftwaffe, serving in Belgium, France and Germany until being taken prisoner by the Russians. He recollects his escape from a Russian camp together with a friend and his adventurous journey back home. He reminisces about the bombing of Hamburg, when he went to visit his sister. Herr Dirks recounts the hardships in pre and post-war Germany.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-06-06
1940-06-07
bombing
crash
firefighting
prisoner of war
Wellington