3
25
149
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/70/717/AAn00974-170413.1.mp3
7b601175f7d1834f67ccdfb1c3feb0ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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An00974
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare le signore [omitted]. Siamo a Vellezzo Bellini è il 13 aprile 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. La sua intervista, le vostre interviste registrate diventeranno parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarvi e tutelarvi secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora [omitted], vuole,
Interviewee: Eccomi.
FA: vuole raccontarci cosa si ricorda del tempo di guerra, in particolare dei bombardamenti avvenuti nella sua zona, dove abitava?
I: Eh, mi ricordo sì, che da quel particolare lì che noi abitavamo in una cascina che era in direzione del Ponte d’Olio, era il ponte più, un punto più preciso per i bombardamenti, venivano proprio di sopra della cascina e tiravano, e bombardava sempre il Ponte dell’Olio perché lì era, non so cosa c’era, che per loro era un punto più di riferimento. Poi va bene, prima di arrivare al ponte c’era un paese che si chiamava Orzinuovi, era un paese di molti partigiani, fascisti e via discorrendo. Mi ricordo bene quel periodo lì, ecco. Poi mi ricordo quando sono venuti alla cascina per cercare un partigiano che hanno fatto la rivoluzione per tutta la cascina quale che lui, benissimo, era scappato, era scappato fuori in una campagna dove c’era la, diciamo la produzione del tabacco. Lì c’è stato un po’ di trambusto, un po’ di difficoltà di tutti, anche con la famiglia perché venivano in casa e buttavano per aria tutto per vedere se delle volte erano o nel letto o nel mucchio del granoturco, vedere se era sotto, non so perché, come faeva a capì, e invece casa non c’era niente. Poi per proteggere, anche per vedere se ghe c’era qualcheduno che diceva la verità, portavano i ragazzi, i ragazzini come me d’otto anni dietro, perché dicevano che se non si diceva la verità mi avrebbero picchiato. E allora noi non è che potevamo dire la verità perché non era in casa nostra, era il figlio d‘un nostro principale che, lui benissimo era a casa ma noi non è che possiamo dire lui era a casa. Nel frattempo lui ha fatto in tempo a scappare. È scappato fuori, loro sono andati in casa, non hanno trovato niente e la roba è stata finita lì. Poi, sì, lì al paese ci sono state tante cose, tanti bombardamenti. C’era sto signora lì che l’hanno perfino pelata, perché era una partigiana, le dava fastidio non lo so, era perché era ricca, non lo so, lì l’hanno pelata tutta.
FA: Si ricorda qualche bombardamento in particolare?
I: Bombardamenti particolare no, perché diciamo lì alla nostra cascina non è mai successo niente, vedevamo solo a passare che buttavano le schegge, dicevano le schegge, i nostri genitori dicevano le schegge, magari erano bombette, non lo so. Diciamo proprio bombardamenti lì no. Sono stati al paese e sul Ponte dell’Olio. Noi, essendo vicini, si vedeva ma non che abbiamo visto proprio.
FA: Vi arrivavano i rumori, insomma.
I: Sì, sì.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
I: Lo spostamento d’aria e così via. Però vedendo proprio da buttare giù. Poi quando c’è stato finito la guerra sono passati tutti con i carri armati i tedeschi e na davan de mangià.
I: Americani.
I: Erano gli americani na devana, passavan con i carri armati, eh quanti, e li davano giù quel pane che sembravano gallette.
I: Gallette le chiamavano.
I: ecco, il pane che si chiamano gallette e lì è stato quando la guerra è stata finita. L’abbiam finita nel ’45, ecco.
FA: Ok, va bene. Eh, signora [omitted], lei invece abitava alla cascina Brunoria.
I: E infatti, lì vicino a Pavia, proprio. E quando hanno bombardato, cosa lo chiamavano, il Ponte dell’Impero, quello lì lo chiamavano? O no?
FA: Quello di cemento?
I: Quando hanno bombardato Pavia, cos’era il Ponte dell’Impero, lo chiamavano?
FA: Sì, dell’Impero, sì. Di là c’era quello della ferrovia.
I: Che e poi mi ricordo che erano i primi di settembre no, noi eravamo, io, mia sorella e mio fratello eravamo nei campi a spigolare le patate.
I: Ah sì.
P: E niente, mia mamma è venuta a cercarci, no, perché in linea d’aria eravamo lì ad un paio di chilometri eh dal ponte, o forse neanche. Adesso non mi ricordo più però.
FA: Mi pare di sì.
I: Ecco. E niente, mi ricordo il fatto che una scheggia no, ha proprio preso mia mamma qui sulla spalla. Non c’era il sangue però c’era via la pelle, si vedeva proprio la carne rossa. Quel fatto lì la vedo ancora adesso, però c’è l’ho davanti agli occhi ancora ecco.
FA: Quindi si ricorda dove eravate più o meno. Quindi eravate lì nel.
I: Eravamo lì vicino alla cascina, fuori, fuori appena dalla cascina ecco.
FA: Quindi è arrivata fino, fino a lì.
I: Sì, sì, sì, eh, le schegge delle bombe, sì, sono arrivate fino a lì, ecco. L’altro, proprio dei bombardamenti no, non mi ricordo, ecco.
FA: Perché comunque c’era una certa distanza, ecco.
I: Sì. Anche. Ma quello lì c’è stato anche quello più che mi ricordo più grande, come bombardamento, no, che hanno buttato giu il ponte lì.
FA: E poi è andata, ma è andata in ospedale o?
I: No, no, eh sì, non c’era neanche, non c’era neanche la bicicletta per andare in ospedale. Niente. No perché difatti non è che era grave, era via solo un po’ di pelle che si vedeva, la carne rossa, eh.
FA: Graffiata insomma.
I: Sì, ecco, così. D’altri fatti, ecco proprio di bombardamenti proprio no, non mi ricordo neanche, magari me l’hanno raccontato anche i genitori, ecco.
FA: Lei invece, signora [omitted], dove abitava?
I: Io abitavo a Samperone, vicino alla Certosa. Lì hanno lanciato una bomba però non c’è stato nessun morto, praticamente, perché è caduto in campagna. Però io, di fronte a me, alla distanza di cento metri, avevo l’accampamento dei tedeschi e in casa mia mio papà era in guerra, però mia mamma aveva in casa il papà e un fratello che doveva essere militare. Quindi eravamo molto, molto, molto osservati. [phone rings] Quindi eravamo un po’ sotto pressione perché avevamo in casa questo zio.
FA: Esatto.
I: E dall’accampamento, la nostra porta dava proprio sull’accampamento dei tedeschi. Quindi loro ci vedevano in casa. Infatti un mattino mio zio è sceso dalla camera, si è messo lì per mettere le scarpe e l’han visto. Quindi hanno fatto irruzione in casa, cercavano il marito, a mia mamma dicevano il marito. Lei li faceva vedere le lettere e via, dicendo che il marito era, loro hanno visto e mio papà perché aveva in casa anche il papà,
FA: Ah già.
I: Ma loro han capito che poteva. Quindi sono andati su in camera, hanno con le baionette trafitto tutti i letti,
FA: Insomma hanno fatto un disastro.
I: un macello, non l’han trovato. Non l’han trovato poi hanno fatto, c’erano i camion che portavano via quelli che c’erano a casa non trovando per loro un uomo c’era, hanno portato via mio nonno. Però essendo vecchio il giorno dopo l’han fatto venire a casa. Ricordo dei bombardamenti per noi era come se fossero lì, erano quelli di Milano, quando bombardarono Milano, che eravamo fuori nei rifugi, sembrava proprio però non eravamo proprio lì.
FA: Dove, dove vi rifugiavate?
I: Eh, c’era un campo che avevano fatto un rifugio sottoterra, sì. Andavamo tutti lì fuori in campagna, avevano fatto un rifugio, c’era un campo. Per dire, uno era qui, poi c’era come una collinetta, l’altro era più là, lì sotto avevano scavato, fatto i rifugi e noi, quando suonava l’allarme, scappavamo tutti lì.
FA: E si ricorda come era costruito il rifugio, cioè, avevan scavato e han fatto un
I: Sì, sì, proprio scavato e noi andavamo tutti lì.
FA: E han messo le travi in legno.
I: No, no, una buca.
I: Una buca.
FA: Era giusto un buco.
I: Un buco. Era sostenuto perché era un campo alto e uno basso.
FA: Ah, ok.
I: Cioè, essendo quello lì più alto, fatto la buca e noi riuscivamo.
FA: Un terrapieno.
I: Ecco, dentro e uscire fuori.
FA: Ho capito. E l’allarme, si ricorda dov’è che era l’allarme, era in paese, a Samperone?
I: L’allarme, suonava l’allarme, dire da dove suonava non lo so. E c’è stato un bombardamento sulla statale, da Samperone alla statale, lì da Pavia c’è un chilometro e mezzo. Hanno bombardato un camion, però io non mi ricordo. C’è stato un bombardamento col camion.
FA: Ehm, un’ultima domanda. Cosa vi ricordate di Pippo?
I: Pippo era tremendo.
I: Pippo, posso dire, noi tre bambini, con l’accampamento fuori, ci faceva fare la pìpì in casa, per terra sul pavimento. Perché quand’era sera, bisognava che ci fosse tutto buio, noi avevamo l’accampamento lì, non potevamo aprire la porta, andare fuori a fare la pìpì, dovevamo farla in casa sul pavimento. I bagni in casa non c’erano, si andava fuori. E l’accampamento è come, ecco, questo è la porta, e lì dove c’è la mura, c’era l’accampamento.
I: Non c’era la luce però. Io non avevo la luce.
I: No, la candela. E magari la spegni.
I: No, no, io mi ricordo che avevamo la luce, sì, sì.
I: Una piccola lampadina.
I: Io mi ricordo che c’avevamo la lampadina. La lucerna non mi ricordo.
F: No, no, no, io la lucerna che mettiamo sul tubo e sotto c’era il petrolio, no.
FA: Esatto
I: Quando si sentiva Pippo, mia mamma [backgroud noise] la ciapava un strass nero , no la n’andava in gireva insima[unclear]
FA: e lo copriva.
I: E lo copriva. Lui andava.
I: Ma noi, noi la luce l’ho mai vista da [background voice]
I: Ricordo io, la luce l’avevamo, per quel che mi ricordo.
F: Noi facevamo con la lucerna. Con la lucerna, disevan la lucerna, c’era il petrolio. Poi avevo un tubo di sopra perché c’era fumo no. E niente, eran quello lì. Mio papà gaveva mis du caden se no comel fai. El leva tacà su li, era una lucerna.
I: Io dei tre ero la più piccola
F: non ho mai visto.
I: di tre figli ero la più piccola.
FA: Va bene allora. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per.
I: Niente. Bene. Poi se va bene.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
The informants remember wartime hardships endured near Pavia and Piacenza. Several stories recalled: a farmhouse being thoroughly searched for partisans, children questioned, people injured by shell splinters, a makeshift dugout used as shelter, improvised lighting at home, strafing, Germans looking for deserters and American troops giving away crackers to the children. They tell how the menacing presence of 'Pippo' forced them to relieve themselves inside on the floor. Mentions the bombings of Milan as seen from the countryside where they were.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:13:33 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn00974-170413
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Piacenza
Italy--Pavia
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/71/718/AMagnaniT170303.2.mp3
79ada1c6e318efb07ff780ad71942b47
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Magnani, Tullio
Tullio Magnani
T Magnani
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Tullio Magnani who reminisces his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Magnani, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il Signor Tullio Magnani. Siamo a Pavia, è il 3 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo il Signor Magnani per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Magnani, vuole ricordarci i suoi anni durante?
TM: Dunque, sì, gli anni trascorsi dalla guerra in avanti.
FA: Esatto.
TM: Allora, prima di tutto, vengo da una famiglia di lavoratori. Naturalmente ho annusato il sapore dell’antiregime di cui si viveva allora. I miei genitori erano nettamente contrari al fascismo ma naturalmente non ho avuto neanche problemi a scuola. Sapevano chi era il papà, che è stato considerato un sovversivo comunista, ma per la verità nel periodo scolastico fatto durante il fascismo non ho avuto noie. Nel 1944, il 4 di settembre le superfortezze volanti americane e inglesi, alleate insomma, hanno prodotto un grosso bombardamento a Pavia e noi che abitavamo in Via Milazzi [Milazzo], della parte destra del fiume Ticino, siamo rimasti senza casa. Ci siamo salvati perché eravamo scappati nei boschi vicini. Naturalmente io e la mia famiglia ci siamo ritrovati nel territorio di Travacò a pochi chilometri da Pavia e da lì è cominciata la mia permanenza, gli ultimi mesi di guerra fino al 1945 a Mezzano Siccomario una casa che ci ha ospitato perché eravamo senza niente, eravamo ridotti proprio, io addirittura ero a piedi nudi quel giorno là. Però nel frattempo i miei genitori mi avevano mandati a casa di una famiglia, Lorenzo Alberti, che era un noto esponente dell’antifascismo pavese e che verrà arrestato nel 1944 con tutto il comitato del CLN provinciale e spedito in Germania. Ritornerà vivo e vegeto nel 1900, nel lontano 1945 dalla Germania. E naturalmente ero andato lì come garzone di bottega perché lui vendeva le macchine per scrivere e naturalmente faceva la, curava tutto l’andamento delle macchine che aveva nei vari uffici durante il regime fascista e la presenza del comando tedesco. E accompagnando l’operaio che doveva fare manodopera alle macchine da scrivere, io portavo una borsa vuota, leggerissima all’ingresso, pesante quando uscivo. Naturalmente controllato era l’operaio, io che avevo quattordici anni sia i fascisti che i tedeschi non mi perseguivano, non mi, non facevano i controlli. Poi abbiamo saputo che in quella borsa lì uscivano i bollini per l’approvigionamento degli alimenti. Perché in quel periodo dovete sapere che c’era contingentato i generi alimentari. Naturalmente questi bollini per il tesseramento andavano alla resistenza ecco. Quello era la cosa che io ho scoperto dopo la liberazione. Naturalmente di questo, di questi ricordi che ho avuto lì e anche nel comune di Travacò li ho messi giù, insomma i ricordi c’ho un fascicolo che consegno anche all’intervistatore. Ci sono alcuni particolari. Particolare è che un bel giorno, una mattina, l’operaio di questa ditta, Alberti, mi dice di andare presso l’istituto di anatomia umana dell’Università di Pavia a ritirare qualcosa. Io arrivo all’istituto di anatomia umana e a questo custode chiedo il nome e questo uomo già un po’ avanti con l’età, mi consegna una busta gialla con scritto ’Regia Università di Pavia’. Questa busta la riporto in negozio al mattino. Nel pomeriggio sempre l’operaio mi dice che doveva farmi fare una commissione fuori Pavia, e ha preso quella busta che avevo consegnato al mattino, l’ha messo dentro a una cartella, tipo quella di scuola, di cartone e m’ha detto: ‘Vai a Travacò a portare questa busta, devi andare all’inizio di Travacò alla frazione Frua e cercare la signora Brusca’ che poi ho capito si chiamava Bruschi, la chiamavano Brusca, io dico: ’sì sì sono pratico di quei posti lì perché ero, sono sfollato lì, in quei posti lì’, infatti non ho fatto fatica a trovarla una donna anziana con un cappellaccio di paglia in testa. E io dico: ’io devo consegnare questa a un signore che c’è qui’. E lui m’ha, lei m’ha detto: ‘È quel signore seduto su una cariola.’ Era un omino un po’, non troppo alto con un grosso paletò, che poi ho riconosciuto come segretario del Partito Comunista provinciale in, clandestino, l’ho ritrovato nell’immediato dopoguerra. Era Carlo Zucchella.
FA: Ah.
TM: E quella busta, ‘io devo consegnare questa roba a questo signore, sì, sì, io l’aspetto. Gliel’ho data. Era un’altra missione che mi han fatto fare. E questo mi è, mi è ancora caro ricordare quel territorio lì del Travacò adesso. L’intervistatore venne mandato dall’ex sindaco Boiocchi che abbiamo una forte amicizia e ricordo sempre quel territorio anche perché sono legato a tutta la gente che ho trovato lì, che purtroppo non ci sono più tanti. Poi ci sono anche altri episodi sempre fatti attraverso la bottega di Lorenzo Alberti. Mi dicono di andare in piazzetta, vicino alle scuole Mazzini a Pavia e io gli ho detto: ’Sì, sì’. Erano le mie scuole elementari, le conosco. Bene, proprio di fronte alla scuola vai su all’ultimo piano e devi portare questo era anche lì, una busta, una busta più pesante di quelle che ho portato prima. E in quella casa c’era un tavolo da disegno, che usano i disegnatori. E c’era un uomo che era là che m’aspettava. E c’era, a disegnare c’era uno che poi m’han detto che era un sordomuto. Era il disegnatore. Anche qui vengo a sapere, dopo la guerra, che questo signore era Cino del Duca, un grande editore di giornali e di riviste. Era anche lui membro della resistenza. E i ricordi sono tanti, gli episodi sono tanti. Sono ancora vivo anche per miracolo anche perché durante queste azioni, che io nulla sapevo l’importanza di quello che facevo, se venivo beccato non ero qui a raccontarlo.
FA: Certo.
TM: E è arrivata la liberazione e io con i miei quindici anni mi sono divertito come gli altri. Sono arrivati le truppe inglesi, la prima camionetta americana giù nel Ponte Vecchio di Pavia e ho ripreso a vivere come dovevamo vivere, a noi ragazzi alla nostra età ci è mancato cinque anni di vita.
[telophone rings]
FA: Allora, prima della pausa stavamo dicendo della liberazione.
TM: La liberazione...
FA: È tornato a vivere in borgo?
TM: No, non eravamo più in borgo perché la casa non ce l’avevamo più. Mio nonno era un pescatore, aveva le barche, tutto, è andato tutto in fumo, tutto, distrutto tutto, non avevamo più niente. Mia mamma e mio papà han trovato un appartamento vicino Piazzale Ponte Ticino ma in città. E lì è arrivata la prima camionetta americana, mi ricordo sempre, questo giovane americano, noi naturalmente ragazzi ci siamo andati tutto intorno avevamo fame e loro distribuivano cioccolato e questo qua si chiamava Dino perché era figlio di italiani, no, e aveva un sacco enorme. M’ha detto se trovavo una donna che gli avesse lavato la biancheria. Io subito gli ho detto: ‘c’è mia mamma’. E lì vicino abitavamo e ho detto, ho chiamato mia mamma, c’è questo soldato americano e ha detto che se gli lavava la biancheria c’era una cassa di sapone. Quando lui ha fatto vedere la cassa di sapone, mia mamma è saltata dalla gioia. Per dire i momenti e, ricordo ancora e ricordo anche questo fatto di questo americano che si chiamava, poi c’ha dato tanta roba da mangiare. E naturalmente lui poi è andato via. E’ stato lì due o tre giorni, ha ritirato la biancheria pulita e stirata e con grande dispiacere di mia mamma non l’abbiamo visto più. Io voglio raccontare, questo racconto dovrebbero sentirlo anche milioni di giovani perché la guerra c’ha tolto cinque anni di vita a noi ragazzi. È scoppiata che avevo dieci anni, è finita che ne avevo quindici. La fame totale, lo studio non c’ho più pensato, era talmente la gioia della liberazione che molti ragazzi miei amici non andavano più a scuola. Poi pian piano abbiamo ripreso ma poi m’ha preso un’altra cosa, la politica. E questa politica mi ha preso talmente che non ho proseguito gli studi e medie, liceo e avanti, questo. Però ho sempre chiesto e ottenuto di sapere, di volere, di sapere le cose, ho fatto uno sforzo io coi libri e anche. Il partito voleva dire tante rinunce, tante sacrifici ma il partito mi ha dato molto nel senso che nell’istruzione poi sono andato a fare dei corsi prima brevi poi brevi, poi abbastanza lunghi per cui ho fatto il mio percorso di apprendimento scolastico. Mi sono sposato, tre figli, quattro nipoti, avevamo un, abbiamo rilevato un negozio che era di mio papà ma non andavamo bene, sono entrato [clears throat], sono stato assunto dopo tante peripezie in Comune, perché voglio dire anche questo: ho partecipato a un concorso per agenti daziari e quando sono arrivato agli esami orali per essere ammesso, dopo aver presentato lo scritto, mi è stato detto che non avrei, non sarei mai stato assunto perché, essendo un corpo armato, non potevo accedere a quel posto lì per via di una vecchia legge fascista che impediva di entrare in questo corpo armato agli iscritti al partito comunista, o anche ai figli dei comunisti. Per cui però ho fatto un po’ di lavoro saltuario nelle scuole a sostituire alcuni bidelli ammalati e così via, insomma il comune mi ha sempre tenuto da conto finché poi è venuto il momento, sono entrato nel corpo vigili urbani come tesoriere e ho fatto per ventidue anni il cassiere al comando vigili di Pavia. Ma prima sono stato anche un dirigente della Gioventù Comunista e ho sempre mantenuto queste idee. Purtroppo adesso non c’è più niente, ma ho cercato di educare la mia famiglia a questi ideali e sono stato anche premiato perché sono contento dei miei figli, dei miei nipoti.
FA: Va bene.
TM: E adesso ho davanti un giovane che mi intervista e sono felice di poter rispondere a questo giovane che tra l’altro si è laureato con un personaggio che a me molto caro che è il professor Lombardi e il professor Guderzo.
FA: Tornando un attimo indietro nel, diciamo nel tempo del suo racconto, potrebbe provare a ricordare, a raccontarci quella giornata del 4 settembre?
TM: La giornata del 4 settembre ha dei precedenti. Intanto la guerra è scoppiata nel ‘40 e non so adesso con precisione ma noi da Pavia vedevamo i lampi dei bombardamenti di Milano di notte, Milano è a un tiro di schioppo da qui in linea d’aria, si vedevano i lampi, bombardavano Milano e poi venivamo a sapere che verso il ’42-’43 bombardavano anche i ponti del Po che collegavano Pavia. E noi stavamo su anche, poi per noi era un, cioè era anche bello di notte, stavamo su tra noi gli uomini pochi perché erano tutti alle armi, e allora venivamo a sapere i problemi delle famiglie questa qui, quella là, quello lì, quello là, insomma vedevamo... poi arrivano i cacciabombardieri americani, bombardano la parte nord di Pavia, ma così dei raid, di, due, tre aerei che hanno sganciato alcune bombe e han fatto qualche morto nella zona di Porta Stoppa di Pavia, la parte nord di Pavia. Quindi prima del 4 di settembre Pavia era stata
FA: Già.
TM: Aggredita dai, ma poi noi vedevamo che sull’argine del Ticino la milizia fascista aveva fatto delle postazioni con delle mitragliatrici antiaeree, che poi si sono rivelate in niente, insufficiente, erano giocattoli rispetto al momento, insomma c’erano già delle armi migliori, cioè le avevano i tedeschi, ma queste qui, e noi le vedevamo, noi capivamo che erano mitragliatrici per contrastare gli aerei. E il 4 di settembre c’è un precedente nel senso che due giorni prima a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti cariche di bombe passavano su Pavia verso il nord, cioè andavano verso Milano, dicevano che andavano in Germania perché Milano non la bombardavano in quel periodo lì.
Interviewee’s wife: Buongiorno.
TM: La mattina di, del 4, mia moglie, ah questo ragazzo pensa Antonia.
AM: Piacere, Antonia.
FA: Filippo, piacere.
TM: C’è acceso. La mattina del 4 di settembre del ’44 mio papà si trovava al di là del fiume perché lavorava in fabbrica. Mia mamma stava cucinando qualcosa. Noi ragazzi quando passavano quegli aerei lì andavamo nel bosco adiacente lungo l’argine del Borgo Ticino per cui dopo che sono passate a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti è arrivato il bombardamento. È stato un disastro, sembrava la fine del mondo non ci, l’atmosfera era rossa dai mattoni, picchiavamo contro le piante per scappare, insomma. Poi dopo è venuto anche il mitragliamento che è stato micidiale perché ha mitragliato verso la parte est di Pavia. Io come un automa come altri nostri amici ci siamo dispersi e siamo fuggiti verso Travacò, lungo l’argine verso Travacò e io sanguinavo, non me ne accorgevo. Nel pomeriggio ho ritrovato i miei genitori che io non pensavo più. Mio papà si era salvato perché era al di là del fiume. Mia mamma è stata salvata dal crollo, la casa non era completamente crollata, e per cui ci siamo ritrovati alla frazione Battella di Travacò Siccomario io, i miei genitori e tanti altri. Poi naturalmente i nostri genitori, tutti quelli, i borghigiani, cittadini che hanno perso la casa, molti sono arrivati nel comune di Travacò e hanno organizzato qualcosa per, insomma. [background noise] Abbiamo fatto due notti in un fienile, poi dopo siamo arrivati a Travacò e a Mezzano. Il podestà di allora, un certo Bruschi che, pur essendo fascista ci ha molto aiutati, siamo andati nelle scuole di Mezzano e i nostri genitori e tutti gli altri adulti hanno organizzato una mensa, son arrivati i generi alimentari, c’è stato un enorme, una cucina per cuocere i cibi. Dopo una settimana che eravamo lì, un giorno pioveva a dirotto, sono arrivati la Feldgendarmeria tedesca, che sarebbe la polizia militare tedesca, con un sidecar, questi due uomini mettevano paura, grandi, grossi, con questo soprabito di cuoio nero, ci hanno imposto di lasciare immediatamente le scuole e ci siam trovati in mezzo alla strada che pioveva. Eravamo un centinaio, figli, genitori, ma subito è arrivata la solidarietà del paese e ci hanno ricoverato un po’ di qui un po’ di là. Insomma la cosa è andata bene insomma, non c’è stato altro e devo dire che io da ragazzo mi ricordo ho vissuto lì fino, da settembre a due mesi prima della guerra, un paese dove, tenuto conto che mio papà era un segnalato come sovversivo, problemi non ne abbiamo mai avuti, quindi la cosa. Poi la liberazione è giunta che abitavamo già a Pavia.
FA: Ha parlato di generi alimentari.
TM: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda da dove, chi era, non so c’era un ente?
TM: I generi alimentari ce li portava il comune di Pavia.
FA: Ah, il comune di Pavia.
TM: Sì. Però dicevano, io ho saputo, che dovevamo procurarci un mezzo per arrivare da Travacò a Pavia a prender la roba, farina, riso, pasta, no. E questo podestà fascista Bruschi Pierino ha messo a disposizione un carro col cavallo e uno di noi mi ricordo ancora chi era andava a Pavia a prelevare la roba. E sono arrivate anche le brande. Il comune di Pavia ha messo a disposizione le brande e i generi alimentari. Devo dirlo con schiettezza. Cioè, pur nel disastro, il comune di Pavia è stato attento a queste cose.
FA: A queste esigenze. Prima ha detto che lungo gli argini vi erano delle, diciamo delle postazioni antiaeree, delle mitragliatrici.
TM: Sì, sì.
FA: Erano, vi erano soldati italiani o tedeschi?TM: Italiani. Erano quelli della milizia fascista.
FA: Ah, le milizie.
TM: Io, noi li conoscevamo anche perché alcuni abitavano lì vicino. La milizia fascista eran della gente che, la miseria era tanta, l’occupazione era, andavano nella milizia, alcuni andavano per sopravvivere.
FA: Per sopravvivere.
TM: Perché poi portavano a casa il rancio che gli davano in caserma. Io avevo due amici di figli, erano figli di due fascisti che erano nella milizia. E han fatto delle piazzole che adesso nell’argine non si vedono più e hanno piazzato queste mitragliatrici. Noi andavamo là a vederle eh. Erano rivolte verso là.
FA: Verso là.
TM: Però ci hanno detto gli esperti che erano stati a fare il militare che queste mitragliatrici agli aerei americani non gli facevano nulla. Soltanto però qui in questo, più più a nord di questo rione c’era una postazione di antiaerea tedesca, quella lì sì era..
FA: Vicina al cimitero forse.
TM: No, dopo.
FA: Ah, più in là?
TM: Più in alto. Addirittura c’è, lì c’è stato un, c’è uno stele che ricorda un antifascista che è andato a parlamentare con i tedeschi il giorno della liberazione per evitare che, perché loro minacciavano di bombardare tutto, è andato lì a parlamentare con i tedeschi, l’hanno ucciso. C’è ancora lo stele lì, in Piazza, Piazza Fratelli Cervi.
FA: Ah.
TM: Sì. Beh volevo dire che sì, quello che m’ha chiesto lei sulle piazzole erano nell’argine che dal Borgo va al Canarazzo, che va a Carbonara al Ticino, c’erano le piazzole della [laughs]
FA: Ah.
TM: E poi dopo il bombardamento del Ponte della Libertà che chiamavano dell’Impero una arcata è stata centrata dagli aerei americani e han fatto, i tedeschi han fatto il traghetto, traghetto con dei barconi, traghettavano e traghettavano dopo il ponte della ferrovia che era crollato anche lui. E noi andavamo a vedere tutte queste robe qui. Eravamo ragazzi. Il giorno della liberazione eravamo lì. Vedevamo i vigili urbani con la fascia tricolore il 25 di aprile in bicicletta. La città oramai era praticamente in mano agli insorti. I tedeschi si riunivano nel Castello Visconteo d’accordo con le forze partigiane. I fascisti erano scappati, c’era ancora qualcuno che per esempio dalla centrale dell’università un fascista ha sparato, poi è stato preso. E noi abbiam vissuto anche quello, da ragazzi eravamo lì rischiando anche perché c’erano dei proiettili vaganti. Fino al 26 aprile quando sono arrivate le, proprio le formazioni partigiane dell’Oltrepò Pavese dirette. Che poi il professor Lombardi ha fatto un bel libro dove parlavano di queste cose, della missione che i partigiani dell’Oltrepò Pavese hanno fatto, a Dongo hanno, quando hanno catturato Benito Mussolini.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Io le ho vissute con l’entusiasmo dei quindic’anni e non ho mollato più.
FA: Eh sì, quindi eh, poi lei dopo quel il primo bombardamento diciamo che ha subito vi siete spostati a Travacò. Avete continuato ad avere notizie, a vedere i seguenti bombardamenti sul borgo?
TM: No, noi, mia mamma e mio papà venivano, io rimanevo a Travacò venivo naturalmente a vedere di recuperare le cose che c’erano sotto i bombardamenti. Devo tenere conto che mio nonno aveva una bella attività di lavoro. Intanto erano lavandai, lavava la, erano lavandai il nonno e la nonna, avevano i clienti che portavano la biancheria da lavare. E mio nonno aveva un torchio, lo chiamavamo un torchio, era una centrifuga per strizzare i, che poi è venuta la lavatrice, ma era questo enorme cilindro che girava per strizzare i panni delle lavandaie. Anche lì l’abbiamo perso, abbiamo perso cinque barche, abbiamo perso molte reti da pescatori, insomma siamo stati molto danneggiati, siamo rimasti. Poi mio papà si è dato da fare per, come tutti, ricostruirsi una vita, cominciato a fare il commerciante di frutta e verdura e così.
FA: Ha detto che suo papà lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino.
TM: Lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino che era la ditta Cercil. Era una ditta specializzata che i tedeschi non la trasferivano in Germania. L’hanno fatto lavorare in Italia. Mio papà era preoccupato perché molti operai specializzati venivano trasferiti in Germania a lavorare per l’industria bellica tedesca. Per fortuna quella fabbrica lì non è stata smontata e ha continuato a lavorare fino agli ultimi giorni di guerra lì. E per io papà era un bel rifugio oltre che posto di lavoro per vivere era, cioè tenuto conto che lui era considerato un sovversivo, come li chiamavano stato mandato al confino sei mesi perché cantavano il primo maggio all’osteria e per lui era una salvezza eh avere un posto di lavoro così. Aveva una tessera per poter fare i turni di notte perché c’era il coprifuoco. Dopo le nove e mezza di sera non si poteva più girare. Se ti prendevano senza documenti venivi fucilato. Io ho vissuto tutte queste robe qui. Andavamo al cinema alle sette di sera perché era l’ultimo spettacolo. Andavamo tutti al cinema per scaldarci perché non avevamo più niente da bruciare in casa. Mancava la legna, mancava tutto.
FA: E la fabbrica di suo papà non è mai stata toccata da nessun bombardamento, nessun danno?
TM: La fabbrica, no, la fabbrica di mio papà si trova vicinissimo il viale lungo il Ticino e si trovava in Via Della Rocchetta. Che adesso han fatto, in quel cortile lì, han fatto abitazioni civili ma era la fabbrica Cerliani che l’altra è più avanti è stata fatta qui al Chiozzo c’è una fabbrica Cerliani.
FA: E producevano?
TM: E producevano filiere, meccanica, meccanica fine, roba non so. Io non sono pratico, non sono mai entrato in una fabbrica. Era proprio. Parlava, papà parlava di ‘ho l’esonero’ cioè non sono esonerato a non andare in Germania con gli operai
FA: Certo.
TM: E perché smantellavano le fabbriche i tedeschi e trascinavano gente in Germania a lavorare. Molti non rientravano più. Beh, da quel punto di vista lì ci è andata bene.
FA: Voglio farle un’altra domanda. Nella zona intorno a casa sua e del borgo, c’erano dei rifugi antiaerei, c’erano?
TM: No, in borgo non c’erano rifugi antiaerei. Noi scappavamo, i boschi dietro a via Milazzo, ancora adesso, c’erano i boschi. C’è il bosco fino a verso Travacò e noi ci [unclear], intanto sì rispetto ai bombardamenti l’abbiam fatta franca però se mitragliavano il bosco non era tanto, ti prendevano. No, a Pavia c’erano delle case, dei palazzi con, io ci sono stato perché andavamo a scuola, con i rifugi antiaerei che con le bombe americane erano, pff! E perché hanno centrato il borgo? Il borgo l’hanno centrato per via del Ponte Vecchio. Perché, se guardiamo bene la mappa di Pavia, i primi due ponti a saltare per aria nettamente sono stati quello delle ferrovie e quello cosiddetto dell’Impero che è Viale della, che è quello della Libertà
FA: Libertà.
TM: Mentre invece il Ponte Vecchio proprio per essere coperto, dalle fotografie inglesi che hanno fatto non veniva fuori netto il ponte, per cui ecco perché la parte di Borgo Ticino ha avuto dei danni con le bombe. Che loro volevano centrare il Ponte Vecchio, l’hanno centrato ma non l’hanno fatto saltare in aria. Ponte Vecchio, quello preromano, quello romano pre spagnolo, non è mai andato giù nettamente come non gli altri ponti. Per cui, no, non c’erano rifugi antiaerei come li ho visti io, in città, nei palazzi, dove si andava in cantina e queste cantine erano sostenute da pali, da travi, sacchetti di sabbia, no, in borgo non c’era niente.
FA: Insomma, ci si doveva arrangiare.
TM: E’ stata una carneficina perché i morti sono stati tanti. Poi è saltata per aria, il bombardamento successivo, la parte della città dove, viale lungo il Ticino, cioè la Via Rezia, che è stata colpita a metà. Lì avevo la nonna e la zia che abitavano lì hanno perso la casa anche loro. Però essendo sui posti di lavoro in un’altra parte si son salvate.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, lei ha parlato prima del suo rapporto, del rapporto della sua famiglia con quel soldato americano ecco. Nonostante, diciamo il fatto che foste stati bombardati, questo vi ha?
TM: Ah per noi, gli abbiamo accolti con perché poi c’era questa atmosfera, caro giovane. Un po’ i fascisti ironicamente li chiamavano liberatori, tra virgolette, no, ma erano per noi, pur nella disgrazia. La guerra intanto non l’abbiamo, non c’entran niente gli americani, la guerra l’ha voluto il fascismo, per cui, vabbè, la mia famiglia, ma come in tutte le famiglie di gente povera, eravamo ridotti talmente male che aspettavamo gli americani. E devo aggiungere per inciso che noi, in Via Strada Nuova c’è ancora una farmacia che si chiama Farmacia Tonello. Un bel giorno sono arrivati i poliziotti in borghese, sono andati dentro da questo farmacista anziano, adesso vanno avanti i nipoti, e l’hanno arrestato, lo abbiamo saputo dopo, perché ascoltava Radio Londra. Radio Londra, io l’ho sentita, perché mio papà si sintonizzava alla sera c’era questo colonello Stevens che diceva [hums the beginning of Beethoven’s 5th Symphony] ‘Qui è Londra che parla’. Parlava in perfetto italiano e ci, ci aggiornavano. Parlavano anche dell’Armata Rossa che stava avvicinandosi alla Germania e parlavano anche che loro ormai erano arrivati anche in Italia, erano sbarcato giù, sapevamo tutto. E hanno arrestato il farmacista Tonello perché l’hanno colto in flagrante mentre ascoltava Radio Londra.
FA: Radio Londra.
TM: Naturalmente dopo due o tre giorni l’hanno rilasciato, era un uomo vecchio. Anche questo episodio ho sentito. E sì, Radio Londra trasmette. E noi, quel giorno che è arrivato, come detto, questa jeep americana, si è fermata nel piazzale pieno di macerie, eh noi ragazzi eravamo tutti attorno, per noi gli americani, intanto per la prima volta vedevamo gli americani, vedevamo gli inglesi, no. Gli Inglesi avevano nel loro esercito, avevano anche gli indiani col turbante e gli americani, questo americano si chiamava Dino, mi ricordo, non mi va via più dalla mente e per noi, lui, io avevo quindic’anni, questo soldato americano avrà avuto ventidue, ventitre anni, era un ragazzo come noi quasi insomma. Ci ha riempiti di cioccolato. Non potete, voi adesso non potete immaginare la contentezza che aveva il popolo italiano pur nelle macerie, pur, molti morivano di fame eh, perché ho saputo dopo, gli ospedali si sono riempiti perché la gente non mangiava. Io ero considerato uno scheletro. Io mi sono sposato con la mia compagna qui che ero sotto peso. Era il 1957. Ne portavo ancora le conseguenze, del mangiare che non abbiamo fatto. Per cui, loro ci hanno buttato giù la casa ma per noi ci hanno liberato.
FA: OK. Dopo.
TM: Viva gli alleati!
FA: Dopo il bombardamento del 4, è, ehm è tornato su in borgo o?
TM: Certo [emphasises], ci vado quasi tutti i giorni. Ho ancora qualche amico ma il più è il posto e naturalmente il territorio di Travacò. [pause] Ogni martedì, con i due o tre amici che ho ancora, andiamo in un’osteria di Travacò, non tanto per mangiare, possiamo mangiare anche a casa no, ma tanto per trovarci.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, può descriverci le devastazioni diciamo che ha subìto, le devastazioni che ha subìto il borgo?
TM: Dunque, prima di tutto io ho saputo, dopo, dopo quella mattina del quattro di settembre del ’44, siamo fuggiti, siamo fuggiti, siamo scappati, un po’ di qui, un po’ di là, come ho ricordato prima, a Travacò, ma i bombardamenti si sono susseguiti. C’è stato una carneficina perché poi la gente si spostava verso San Martino. Presente Via Dei Mille? E sono andati in un tunnel che attraversava la strada e questo tunnel è dalle parti di, via sempre di Via Dei Mille, all’altezza di Strada Persa. C’era questo tunnel e la gente, per loro era diventato un tunnel antiaereo. Molta gente è andato dentro in questo tunnel. Alcune bombe sono arrivate anche lì, ma non perché hanno saltato, hanno bucato la strada, una bomba è esplosa ai lati del tunnel, c’è stata una carneficina nel Borgo.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
TM: Sì, il piazzale attuale del borgo è stato tutto distrutto, chi lo vede adesso vede le case recentissime, solo la parte sinistra andando in là dove c’era la farmacia erano rimaste le vecchie case, per il resto son tutte nuove. Abbiamo perso degli amici lì, molti amici, ci giocavamo assieme. Nel mio cortile ci son stati dodici morti di anziani e gente appena arrivata. Ma la parte centrale [emphasises] del Borgo Ticino, cioè all’imboccatura del ponte vecchio, che c’è il piazzale che si chiama Ferruccio Ghinaglia, lì ho perso quattro o cinque ragazzi della mia età, non ci sono più, son rimasti lì. Per cui il borgo è, c’è un monumento lungo il Ticino voluto da un mio carissimo amico che adesso non c’è più, Calvi Agostino, che continuiamo a raccontare un po’ di cose sul calendario della AVIS tutti gli anni raccontiamo qualcosa del borgo, tutto lì. Naturalmente la Via Milazzo è stata salvata, salvo [emphasis] il mio cortile. Il mio cortile è stato l’ultimo a essere colpito da quella parte lì. Tutta la parte che va giù verso il Ticino si è salvata. Purtroppo noi siamo scappati, io non ho fatto più ritorno fin quando i miei genitori han trovato casa in città e anche lì un po’ ho stretto amicizia con i giovani del paese e mi ricordo, mia mamma aspettava mia sorella, che è molto più giovane di me e andavamo naturalmente siccome vivevamo in una stanza unica, meno male, era una stanza sia per dormire che per mangiare per cui, mentre mio papà era al lavoro, io e mia mamma andavamo in un’osteria a prenderci il cibo già pronto che ci cucinava per noi. Era bello insomma, vivevamo tranquilli in quel paese lì, trovavamo più da mangiare che non prima perché la campagna, insomma se ti dai da fare insomma, se hai i mezzi eh, perché se non hai i mezzi non c’è niente.
FA: Lei l’ha visto Pippo?
TM: Pippo, Pippo bombardava di notte. Bastava accendere un fiammifero che magari ti colpiva. Proprio davanti al mio cortile, se posso darti del tu no? Il mio intervistatore, come ti chiami di nome?
FA: Filippo.
TM: Filippo, ecco, caro Filippo, vai a fare un giro dopo. All’inizio di Via Milazzo, c’è il numero 9, è il mio cortile.
FA: Ah.
TM: Che ancora qualche fuori [muro] perimetrale, ancora la vecchia casa ristrutturate, dentro è tutto nuovo, perché è saltato per aria. Lì era il posto dove con le barche partivano di notte per andare a pescare. Caricavano le reti, erano sempre sei barche eh. Perché non era come il mare. Gettavano le reti nel fiume ma tiravano stando a terra gli,
FA: Ah.
TM: Per cui avevano bisogno di tanta manodopera, no. E avevano una lanterna, una lanterna a petrolio. È arrivato Pippo, ha lanciato uno spezzone, ha ucciso un uomo che, con un papà di un mio amico. Pippo ha colpito anche l’imbarcadero che adesso c’è dove c’è il ristorante Bardelli?
Fa: Sì.
TM: Lì c’era l’imbarcadero Negri. Pippo ha colpito anche lì. E devo dire che in una giornata bellissima come quella di ieri, a Travacò ero, ritornavamo da Pavia, io, mia mamma e mio papà che eravamo stati in prefettura a prendere qualcosa, ci davano un po’ di sostentamento, tutto a piedi eh. C’era un ricognitore inglese, un bimotore, che era talmente basso che si vedevano le figure degli uomini che c’erano dentro nella carlinga. E a volo radente eh. Noi ci siamo, ah beh la paura era tanta perché mitragliavano. A Cava Manara hanno mitragliato un corteo funebre, hanno mitragliato proprio il carro funebre. E non so, erano convinti che era una manifestazione di fascisti [laughs] o di tedeschi, vabbè e noi, si aveva paura anche di questi aerei che poi risultava un ricognitore. Sono quelli che facevano le fotografie, sempre inglesi erano. E quel ricognitore me lo ricordo sempre, una bestia sopra di noi, abbiam visto le figure degli uomini perché il bimotore aveva la carlinga senza motore, i due motori erano, sì, mi ricordo anche questo.
FA: Li avete visti quindi distintamente.
TM: Sì, li abbiamo visti benissimo e ci siamo scansati, ci siamo buttati giù a lato, io, mia mamma e mio papà. Eh sì, poi io ho sempre avuto paura di, sono rimasto scioccato. Andavo a nascondermi nei fossi asciutti del Travacò, uscivo sempre, io avevo il terrore di stare in casa fino a quando poi mi è passato ed è finita la guerra [laughs].
FA: Ho capito. Senta le faccio una domanda che...
TM: Sono qua.
FA: C’entra diciamo relativamente meno con il discorso che stavamo facendo. Lei nel ’48 era già all’interno del Partito Comunista?
TM: Ero già all’interno, devo dire che nel Partito Comunista il giorno della liberazione erano il 40, 25-26, i partigiani sono arrivati il 26-27, naturalmente si ballava si, c’era una grande confusione anche, il, ho visto, han portato un carico di fascisti che hanno fucilato in Piazza d’Italia, era la mattina del primo maggio o due maggio. E io, come ragazzo, ho aiutato, ho detto: ’ cià, vedete in Corso Mazzini, venite, venite aiutarci’, c’era un carretto dallo studio dell’avvocato Sinforiani che poi è stato eletto senatore della Repubblica trasferito un sacco di roba, cartacea no, dentro nelle casse con questo carretto del fruttivendolo li abbiam portati in Broletto. Il Broletto, bel palazzo eh, è stato occupato sia dai comunisti che dai socialisti, primo piano i comunisti, secondo piano i socialisti. Io naturalmente sono andato lì e ho partecipato a questo trasloco di documenti da Corso Mazzini e da allora sono entrato al Broletto aiutando questi partigiani che portavano la roba lì, si è instaurata la federazione comunista. Da allora ho frequentato, perché mio papà è diventato ambulante con un banco fisso di frutta e verdura in piazza, proprio di fronte al Broletto per cui vivevo lì e non ho mollato più. E allora non era ancora rinata la Federazione Giovanile Comunista perché è rinata nel ’49, io ho partecipato alla costituzione perché ero lì. Nel partito comunista se non avevi sedici anni non ti prendevano
FA: Ah!
ed eri considerato membro candidato, io ho ancora i documenti, e dovevi essere presentato da tre persone adulte perché allora la maggiore età si aveva a ventuno anni. Ma nel partito ti prendevano a sedici anni come membro candidato e ti davano la tessera ma eri oggetto di indagini, da dove venivi, chi eri e. Questo è importante. E sì, l’ho avuta, ma nel ’46, nel ’45 no, ero lì senza tessera. Ma avevamo il Fronte della Gioventù, che era un’organizzazione nata nella resistenza fatta di giovani liberali cattolici, comunisti, socialisti, era il Fronte della Gioventù. E abbiamo occupato i locali della ex-GIL, che adesso c’è il comando vigili di Pavia,
FA: Ah, sì.
TM: Là dalla curva. Sì siamo andati lì, abbiamo organizzato anche la balera, facevamo ballare, dappertutto si faceva ballare allora. Poi naturalmente noi eravamo comunisti. E nel ’48 ho partecipato al, alla battaglia elettorale che, la battaglia elettorale era una roba, bisognerebbe parlarne bene di queste robe, era una battaglia con i manifesti che la Democrazia Cristiana ci batteva tutti. Andavano ad attaccare i manifesti anche sotto le grondaie per via che loro avevano le scale delle chiese, è importante!
FA: Quindi belle lunghe.
TM: Lunghissime, che noi non avevamo. Noi potevamo al limite arrivare a tre metri. E poi loro avevano più mezzi.
FA: Bene.
TM: Ho partecipato a questa battaglia. Mi ricordo che il primo, abbiamo fatto una roba che, una roba da giovani. Il partito comunista ha fatto un bellissimo manifesto ‘Quo Vadis, dove vai, o Signore?’ e l’abbiamo messo sotto il portone del vescovado nottetempo. Però siamo stati individuati ma non siamo stati presi in flagrante e poi dopo ce l’han fatta pagare per il lancio dei volantini nei cinema. Si andava in guardina una notte, a lanciare i volantini nei cinema non autorizzati [emphasises] ti beccavano, andavi in guardina fin domani mattina.
[Doorbell rings]
TM: Tonia, guarda un po’. E, bisogna ricordarle queste cose, ai manifesti,
Unknown speaker: Chi è?
TM: il partito mi mandava in questura a portare i manifesti, bisognava metter la marca da bollo e venivano listati.
TM: Chi è?Ormai ci pensa lei, eh.
Unknown speaker: La signora Casella
TM: Venivano listati, bisognava andare in questura, allora c’erano le marche da bollo. Poi il partito mi mandava senza essere funzionario andavo con la corriera che si chiamava la Lombarda a .Milano con i soldi nella borsa a prendere le tessere. Era dove c’è la Mediobanca a Milano c’era l’Alto Commissariato Altitalia che per tutta l’Italia settentrionale c’erano le tessere e i bollini del partito e bisognava andare là con i contanti e prendere, a fare i prelevamenti, mandavano me che avevo diciotto anni, diciannove anni. Poi sono diventato funzionario del partito. Poi ho smesso quando non ne potevo più. Non si mangiava perché il partito, sì esisteva la cifra dello stipendio ma che non vedevamo mai e fin quando ero solo tiravo ma poi dovevo sposarmi e ho dovuto, non uscire dal partito ma non fare più il funzionario, lavorare con mio papà a vendere la frutta e la verdura per poi andare in Comune a lavorare.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Altro, io sono sempre a disposizione.
FA: Va bene allora la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
TM: Che cognome hai?
FA: Andi.
TM: Anni?
FA: Andi.
TM: Andi. E Filippo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tullio Magnani
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Tullio Magnani remembers his wartime years in the Pavia province. Although his father was blacklisted as a subversive communist he did not have any trouble at school. He recounted his role as a young resistance helper smuggling food rationing coupons, while working as a shop boy for a well-known antifascist. Remembers being an eye-witness to the bombing of Milan from Pavia. Retells of a machine gun being set up by fascists on the Ticino river bank, which proved ineffective against allied aircraft. Mentions the strafing of a funeral procession at the Cava Manara municipality carried out by what was thought to be a spotter aircraft. Remembers 'Pippo' bombing at night and targeting the fishermens wharf. Stressing how, during the intense bombing and strafing of Pavia on 4 September when they lost everything, the local fascist authority of Travacò municipality was very helpful in providing them with cots, food and lodgings in a school. Mentions wartime episodes: people seeking refuge in a tunnel used as a makeshift shelter and the carnage that ensued from the bombing, a chemist being arrested for being caught red-handed listening to Radio London, how some driven by poverty and hunger, joined the fascist guards and resorted to going to the cinema before the curfew to find a warm place to stay. Explains how Pavia’s old bridge, unlike the other two which were hit, was not hit by the bombers because it was not clearly visible in the reconnaissance photographs taken from aircraft. Describes the celebrations at the end of the war and reflects on the duality of bombers / liberators. Remembers seeing for the first time an American soldier called Dino, who gave them a soap crate as a gift for washing his laundry. Mentions post war acts of revenge, his role in the local branch of the communist party, the 1948 general election, and how he did not get a job as a tax collector because of his political persuasion.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:52:11 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMagnaniT170303
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-04
1948
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/74/736/ABisioG-MascherpaT170308.1.mp3
337d6cd7833eb21a9f2125039c266f3c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bisio, Gabriella and Mascherpa, Teresa
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
G Bisio and T Mascherpa
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of a dual oral history interview with Gabriella Bisio and and Teresa Mascherpa who recollect their wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mascherpa, T; Bisio, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare la signora Gabriella Bisio e la signora Teresa Mascherpa. Siamo a Pavia, è l’8 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. È inoltre presente all’intervista il signor Maggi. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla, [background noise] l’Università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora Gabriella, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza del periodo di guerra, insomma?
GB: Le racconto che all’età di sette, otto anni, nove, quelle che l’è, partivo da sola dalla casa perché ero terrorizzata dai bombardamenti e andavo in una cascina nei dintorni all’Acquanegra.
AM: Sì, infatti.
GB: la cascina dei grandi, partivo il mattino, tornavo la sera. Nessun sbuieva no in ca’ mia perché non si andava da nessuna parte. Niente, la fame perché ho mangiato anche il latte con le patate perché non c’era il pane, la fila per poter avere magari il pacchettino di sale perché e poi tutto quello che si vedeva perché ad esempio mio papà lavorava in una cartiera Burgo, non ha mai voluto prendere la tessera.
AM: Del fascio.
GB: dei fascisti così e combinazione vuole, doveva essere portato via, dove li portavano a. Il giorno che doveva essere portato via è stato il giorno che è finito tutto il trambusto della guerra. Spariti anche di lì. Poi mi ricordo che c’erano i tedeschi nel piazzale del borgo, Piazzale Ghinaglia e si stavano arrendendo perché oramai erano e uno della compagnia tedesca si è portato avanti con le mani alzate, è stato ucciso dai compagni dietro. Tutti ricordi non belli. Poi, non lo so, la vita [unclear] ah, non è finita lì. Ehm, cos’erano i fascisti, tedeschi, chi l’è cl’è can mis tut al rob li dentar?
TM: Quello lì era un momento.
GB: Delle guerre.
TM: Alla fine guerre quando si ritiravano i tedeschi. La mitragliatrice [unclear].
GB: Giù c’è una paninoteca, qui, qui, sempre stato e han portato tutti.
TM: Mitragliatrici qui davanti all’entrata perché passavano da là per la statale.
GB: Sì, e han messo tutti armi e bagaj per sparare se arrivavano i.
TM: Davanti a una casa.
GB: il mio suocero insomma si è fatto risenti ma niente fare, spaventi anche li. Voi dov’è che andavate a prendere il pane?
TM: A Robecco.
GB: Robecco.
TM: C’era il pane, c’era.
GB: Perché loro.
TM: In bicicletta.
GB: Erano in una situazione diversa un po’ dalla mia. [unclear] Tra le disgrazie, ma varda quas chi, ciapa da li, scapa da là. Ciumbia abbiam fatto la fame.
AM: Invece Zina cioè andava.
TM: No num ndavam [unclear].
AM: No andava da Robecco in bicicletta.
TM: In bicicletta. Per prendere il pane per una settimana. I micconi. Il pane non c’era.
GB: Poi ha nascosto anche gente, gh’era chi nascost Muzzo, tla cunüsat, tlè conosü.
AM: Nascondevano anche gente come, come quelli che la dicevano che andavano nella cascina e là loro si nascondevano.
I: [unclear]
AM: Perché allora non c’erano tutte queste case.
TM: No, no.
AM: Allora c’erano, erano in fondo al borgo c’erano.
GB: Al tempo dei partigiani.
AM: Ma quand i bumbardavan vialtar scapavat o no?
GB: [unclear] Antonio, io no. Io ero sempre in quella cascina lì. Ah no, ti dirò un’altra cosa. Che poi avevamo preso l’abitudine, quando suonava l’allarme, si andava in quel rifugio che c’è, prendeva giù dall’Acquanegra. Quel rifugio lì. Quel giorno là c’era l’esumazione di qualche parente nostro. E allora con mia mamma, Gigi e Giovanni siamo andati al cimitero. Han bombardato, proprio preso quel punto.
AM: Quella volta, che ti diceva Piero quando hanno preso la tomba che ha fatto 90 morti.
TM: Tomba [unclear]
GB: Han proprio preso quel punto lì.
TM: I bombardamenti più brutti sono stati per il ponte vecchio perché.
GB: Che sbagliavano.
TM: Il ponte della ferrovia [unclear] Due volte sono andati giù. Ma questi qui tutte le volte
AM: Sì, in più quello che diceva.
TM: E han bombardato [unclear].
GB: Sbagliavano le posizioni. E anche quella volta lì, allora c’era già la passerella. Gh’era giamò un quaicos ca’ quadreva no. Fatto sta che ricordo ancora la scena. Perché naturalmente mio papà era al lavoro. Sentendo tutto e sapendo, memore che magari si andava lì, guarda. Noi tornavamo.
TM: Quel bombardamento lì l’ha centrà e l’è ndai giù anca mes Burg.
GB: Noi tornavamo dal cimitero, ci siamo visti sul ponte, lui tornava dal borgo. Non so dirti la scena quando ci ha visti perché il pensiero da ved pü una famiglia, vedasla davanti Tu ti ricordi che.
FA: Quindi si ricorda quando hanno bombardato?
GB: Eh questo no. Quand’è che l’è stat fiöi?
TM: Hanno bombardato.
AM: No le date, cioè un mese.
GB: Sì, sì, sì. No, no, no, no. Eh, noi eravamo dalla parte opposta del cimitero.
AM: Eran dall’altra parte del Ticino.
GB: Lì è stato un disastro, che roba. Vedere portavano via i morti, i feriti, la maniera ch’ieran, con la barelle di legno. Bisognava. Scene strazianti addirittura. No, no, è stato.
AM: E vialtar quand i bumbardevan, vialtar, erano qua a duecento metri da [unclear].
GB: Sì, sì, sì.
TM: [unclear ]A guardà in alt par ved, perché per, qui c’erano i, si fermavano i pullman che con l’allarme si sono fermati qui. I bombardamenti sono andati tutti nel rifugio lì. E sono rimasti sotto.
GB: E sono rimasti sotto tutti.
AM: Comunque tu pensa che a distanza di tempo, adesso te lo dico, c’era lì della Carminuti no, che han trovato un cadavere che praticamente era stato sbalzato in aria, era caduto sopra il tetto, aveva sfondato il tetto e non se n’era accorto nessuno, dalla puzza han rinvenuto il cadavere.
GB: Un po’ dappertutto anche quei che era stai bumbardà ] non c’erano più integri, erano tutti
AM: A pezzi.
GB: Immagini. Che robe ch’è stat li.
FA: Quindi hanno bombardato un rifugio vicino al ponte?
AM: No, qua, qua avanti.
GB: A metà abbondante.
AM: Quattro, trecento metri indietro da qua, che era distante dal ponte perché avevano sbagliato.
FA: Perché avevano sbagliato, sì.
GB: A metà borgata.
TB: Siccome forse era, c’era una curva li, fasivan fatiga.
AM: Non tenevano conto del Ticino.
TM: Facevano fatica a centrarlo il ponte vecchio e l’hanno bombardato due o tre volte.
GB: E poi c’era Pippo. C’era Pippo che rompeva le scatole tutte le notti. Non so no un mo’ ades, qual’era la sua funzione, so no un mo’ ades. Tutte le notti girava.
TM: Però un paio di volte ha bombardato la cascina Lignazza li, perché ieran andai int i camp , le bombe.
AM: Lui se vedeva magari qualche movimento, qualche cosa così, lasciava una bomba.
GB: L’unica cosa è che quando si andava fuori per non essere proprio sotto le case, andavamo quei prati li sempre giù dl’Aquanegra e mia mamma, e mia mamma si portava dietro il paiolo per fare la polenta. Oh Madonna, da mettere in testa, così se magari succedeva che bombardavano, mitragliavano, almeno la testa era salva. Di quelle cose che adesso ci ride magari a raccontarle ma allora no.
FA: Quindi c’era grande, c’era forte paura insomma.
TM: Altrochè.
GB: Forte paura, altroché. Forte paura e poi c’era il terrore di tutto. Perché anche per i giovani. Perché poi io avevo due zii, fratelli di mio papà, che erano fascisti fascistoni [emphasis] proprio. Gente che facevano del bene eh. Infatti quando è finita la guerra, nessuno li ha insultati, nessuno, Perché allora loro vivevano dentro la caserma, sul viale, e davano da mangiare a tutti quelli che andavano a cercarlo. Poi avevo uno zio, fratello di mia mamma, contro completamente, Angelo. E quindi avevamo anche un po’ di.
AM: Ma Tunon l’era, Tunon.
GB: Eh.
AM: L’era parente de tu ziu.
GB: Tunon chi l’è? [unclear].
AM: Al papà ad.
GB: Manuela?
AM: No. Bosi.
GB: Quel Bosi l’era me ziu.
AM: Quel che lui l’è partì, lui è partito, era appena sposato.
GB: Sì.
AM: E sua moglie era incinta, l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, no. Poi è andato a finire in Egitto, prigioniero in Egitto, è tornato nel ’46, che suo figlio quanti anni che aveva? Aveva sei o sette anni. Non aveva mai visto suo papà no?.
GB: No, ah, l’è, ti te dre parlà del Mino?
AM: Del Mino, sì.
GB: Ah, Tunon disevi Angelo [unclear]?
AM: No, perché al ciamevan Tunon so papà.
Gb: No è il papà del Mino.
AM: Sì, il papà del Mino se ciama.
GB: È suo sio Piero.
AM: Suo sio Piero.
GB: Tornato che era più lui, perché sentire quello che racconntava, lo mettevano su una scala ripide e po’ ag devan un punton e al la fevan borlà giù , lo faseva andar giù. Delle cose.
AM: Gli inglesi l’avevan catturato perché lui era partito addirittura prima della guerra.
GB: Sì, sì.
AM: Per la guerra d’Albania, no.
Gb: Sì, sì, è stato in Albania.
AM: E l’han fatto prigioniero in Albania. L’han fatto prigioniero in Albania, lui non è più, era il ’46, cioè non il, era il ’38, ’39, robe del genere. Lui non è più tornato, s’era perso, quando è partito era, s’era sposato da poco, no.
GB: Sì. Era partito che non era più lui. Lü giamò al la ciamevan Tunon.
AM: [unclear], perché sì.
GB. Povero.
GB: Ritorno, e poi mi ricordo un’altra scena che non so se può essere importante o no. Che un giorno hanno schierato Angelo, non ricordo il nome degli altri tre, davanti alla caserma dei carabinieri. E i fascisti dall’altra parte pronti ad ucciderli. E varda s’eri una fiületina propi giuina ca vadivi tut chi rob li. Poi non so come mai le cose son cambiate e insomma si son salvati.
FA: D’accordo.
AM: Che poi qua, diseva Piero, che chi g’era un pustament ad contraerea giù all’Acquanegra.
GB: Si altroché.
TM: Sì.
GB: Ma n’era dappertutto, Antonio. Dappertutto n’era.
AM: E sparavano ogni tant quai li?
GB: Si sentiva il botto dappertutto. Quand han trai giù, che han bombardà il ponte.
TM: Si qual li l’è stat, bombardamenti più... spaventoso.
AM: Però non sono mai sfollati perché abitavano già in fondo il borgo. Cioè scappavano nelle campagne e nelle cascine basta [unclear].
GB: Fuori che almeno le case non cadevano in testa, ecco.
FA: Eravate un po’ più lontani insomma.
GB: Ma si pensava a un fatto del genere invece. Eh lì c’è gente che han perso figli e non figli, in particolare in quel rifugio lì. Era l’unic ca’ gh’era chi in Burg in borgo.
AM: Grosso.
TM: Chi I pensavan ac l’era al püsè sicur.
Fa: E lei invece era da questa parte di qua del borgo, quando?
TM: Anche quello lì da questa parte ma è più in là, più vicino al ponte diciamo.
AM: Sì, no, le Gina quand i bumbardevan l’era da chi.
GB: Non si è mai mossa [laughs].
TM: No, ma anca li me cas fa ndevi in tla stra da la giu li nei campi.
FA: E l’ha visto? Che cosa si ricorda di quelle giornate, di quella giornata lì insomma?
GB: Eh, un trambusto che non finiva più.
TM: Mah, forse niente. Una visione che non si può descrivere.
GB: No, non si può descrivere.
TM: Perché non riesci ad abbassare la testa, guardat sempar in su , con la testa in giù guardi anca li [unclear].
GB: Vabbè che c’è gente che ha perso proprio tutta la famiglia, eh.
AM: Sì, ma le la diseva, vialtar guardevav I bomb ca’ nieva giù? .
GB: [unclear] Si s’eram propi chi, at ia vedevat a grapul chi nievan giù, proprio che scendevano [mimics sound].
TM: Mia mamma la scappava magari in casa. La gneva no föra la steva in ca’ e mi s’eri li a guardà, ne mur ne nient e specie quas chi il Ponte dell’Impero è andato giù.
AM: Ma quel che ha bombardà la tombina, vialtar iv vust la nivula, av ricurdè subit o no?
GB: Io non le ho viste perché non ero in borgo.
TM: No guardevi propi püsè in la dal pont proprio che sei in là adesso.
AM: Quindi anche loro non se ne sono resi conto subito.
[background noise]
GB: Aveva dei lati comici magari anche.
FA: Quindi insomma una grande confusione. Non si riesce a descrivere.
TM: A descrivere non riesco.
GB: No. Io l’unica cosa che mi ricordo è che tornando dal cimitero tutte sti barelle, sul coso che li portavano non si sa dove, morti, non morti.
FA: Quindi è arrivata insomma dopo che era successo, ecco.
AM: E anche lei che era qua non si è resa conto subito, vedeva venire giù le bombe.
TM: Polvere, fumo, perché po anca frequenti le bombe, una da dre a l’altra.
Gb: Un grappolo, un altro grappolo, venivan giù, me delle.
TM: Più brutto è stato questo qui, il ponte vecchio. L’altro.
GB: Ma hanno sbagliato un paio di volte a prenderlo.
TM: Oh, quas chi si.
GB: Eh! Il ponte dell’impero era più vivo, era più.
TM: Ponte delle ferrovie, il primo bombardamento.
AM: È andato giù.
TM: Quello dell’impero, due volte son venuti per.
GB: Ma chi più sè?
TM: E chi ien gni tre o quattre volte. L’ultima volta, un disastro.
GB: Disastro generale.
TM: Perché forse gh’evam un età che capivam un po’.
AM: Si capiva propi no un mo’ ben.
TM: In che manera l’era.
Gb: Ti dico che mi a vundes ann l’era finì la guerra. Unidici anni.
GB: Anche se po’ ghe gent che as ie fai i danè.
AM: [unclear]
GB: Eh?
AM: Lo diseva anche Piero [laughs].
GB: Poi c’è gente che.
TM: Quando è finita la guerra han fat i Carneval.
GB: Sì.
TM: Andà in gir con una gabbia con dentar i.
GB: La storia [clears throat] a quan ievan impost da met, i due palloni in alto.
TM: Qual li l’è prima l’è il Duce, quando l’è passà il Duce, ha fatto l’inaugurazione dela Lupa .
GB: Ah d’la casa dla Lupa . E hanno imposto a mio suocero di abbellire un po’ la casa perché passava di qua. E l’abbellimento l’è stato. Ma.
TM: C’era, era metà che sembrava un gabinetto, un servizio. Allora l’hanno dovuto allungarlo, fare una specie di terrazzo con i palloncini di sopra perché passava il Duce . Ma è prima della guerra. [pause]
GB: Avete voi qualche domanda da fare? Dai, iutes.
FA: Vabbe’ quindi allora quello è stato il primo bombardamento. Invece dei bombardamenti che sono venuti dopo? Ne avete visto qualcuno?
AM: No. Noi.
GB: Quello lì.
AM: Ma loro hanno visto quelli del ponte, scappavano poi dopo.
TM: Sì, sì, del ponte là e basta. Am ricordi nanca se ien gnu a bumbardà.
AM: No, ma quelli ien quei del ponte, po g’era Pippo, gli altri.
TM: Gh’era Pippo cl’era sempar in gir.
GB: All’inisi dal Burg a bas l’è ndai giù anca lü.
AM: Sì, sì, sì, là del teatro Bordoni, la cooperativa.
GB: Andà giù tut.
AM: Eh ma il burg, fino a quasi alla chiesa l’èra andà giù tutti, Indè ca gh’era Gavassi al gh’eva al deposit di strass che è bruciato, è andato a bruciare avanti non so per quanti giorni perché lì c’era il deposito degli stracci, c’era uno che faceva proprio la raccolta degli stracci.
GB: Inde ca gl’aviva?
AM: Li atacà ai scol
TM: Ma li l’è indè ca stava , ma lu l’era chi da Sfross.
GB: Dopu atacà.
TM: chi nde gh’era l’edicula.
Gb: Ma lè ndai subit li?
AM: No li gh’è ndai dopu, Sì perché lu andava lì dove se i scole.
TM: Ah li ghe ndai dopu la guera?
AM: I la che stava lu con la ca’ Che lì l’è andai avanti a brusa non so per quanto tempo perché alcune bombe, cioè, non è che le bombe han colpito la chiesa, sono arrivate vicino alla chiesa, perché era caduto anche un pezzo di navata della chiesa.
TM: E sempre nel bombardamento per il ponte.
AM: Sempre per il ponte. C’era, sempre una di quelle volte che hanno sbagliato a bombardare perché non hanno sbagliato, cioè hanno sbagliato diverse volte. Cioè, il massimo è stato quando hanno sbagliato che hanno preso la Tombina che proprio erano fuori però altre volte, sempre per il discorso della curva, loro sbagliavano e beccavano il borgo, le case del borgo. Una volta hanno beccato anche le case appena fuori dal ponte città vecchia. Han beccato anche lì, dove adesso c’è la cremeria e così, no. Una volta hanno sbagliato perché probabilmente sono stati più di là e hanno buttato giù le case anche di là, dove adesso hanno costruito tutte quelle case nuove.
GB: si perché il ponte lo han rifatto.
GB: Ma non come prima [unclear], Prima era più curvo e adesso.
AM: Sì, l’hanno fatto un po’ più in giù.
TM: L’han spustà, l’han spustà.
GB: Perché lì nel piazzale c’erano gli alberghi, di Ferrari, gh’era tut.
TM: Al ciclista atacà al pont.
GB: Andàt giu tut.
TM: Antonio, l’ha vüst no nanca lü [unclear].
AM: No abbiamo visto in fotografie e senti quei c’am cuntan ialtar.
GB: Antonio l’è giuin eh dai.
AM: Che me contava mio ziu, me contava mio papà.
GB: Antonio da chi a dü dì al cumpisa no ottantaquattr’anni. [laughs]
AM: [laughs]
GB: [laughs] Te capì?
AM: Sì, sì, sì.
FA: Va bene.
GB: Basta così?
FA: Va bene.
GB: Mi dispiace che forse anche un po’ l’età che non siamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe.
TM: Non ci ricordiamo più.
FA: Ci mancherebbe. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per questa intervista.
GB: Facciamo il caffé?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa recollect the bombing of Pavia and give a vivid description of its immediate aftermath. They describe food shortages, resorting to eating potatoes with milk and queuing up for a portion of salt. Gabriella emphasises how her father refused to join the fascist party and how the war ended the day he was about to be deported. They recount various wartime episodes: a German soldier in the act of surrendering being shot in the back by his comrades, harrowing scenes of bodies carried away on wooden stretchers, and acts of kindness by fascist relatives, 'Pippo' bombing at night, anti-aircraft batteries positioned in the city and the accidental bombing of a church and houses near the old bridge which was the actual target.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
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00:18:48 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABisioG-MascherpaT170308
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gabriella Bisio and Teresa Mascherpa
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/112/1171/APaganoA170712.2.mp3
c3afcb5991340adf8033f267c007bc55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pagano, Andreino
Andreino Pagano
A Pagano
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Andreino Pagano who recollects his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound. Oral history
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pagano, A
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il signor Andreino Pagano. Siamo a Casei Gerola, è il 12 luglio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Pagano per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Pagano, vuole raccontarci i suoi ricordi, le sue esperienze nei bombardamenti di Voghera?
AP: Voghera, sì, e dintorni,
FA: E dintorni.
AP: Perché io essendo un po’ distaccato da Voghera, come tu vedi, sono a quattro chilometri da Voghera, verso Casei Gerola, ho vissuto questi eventi un po’ fuori, pur essendone al corrente. Cosa ricordo io? Già dico che ricordo queste cose perché io sono della classe 1934 e a quell’epoca avevo otto, nove anni, perché siamo nel 1943, ‘44, quegli anni lì, eh. Cosa ricordo? Prima parto da Casei Girola e poi mi avvicino a Voghera. Io mi ricordo che, quando bombardavano qui nella zona io mi ricordo che mi sono rifugiato nella chiesa parrocchiale di Casei Girola perché già a quel tempo avevo capito che i muri della chiesa, spessi quasi un metro, mi difendevano da eventuali bombe o da mitragliamenti, ecco. L’altra cosa venendo in avanti che ricordo è: un giorno c’è stato in mitragliamento sulla strada provinciale Novara-Voghera, un mitragliamento ad un camion pieno di biscotti e in quell’occasione volavano scatole di biscotti dappertutto, nei campi, nei miei campi, e figuriamoci noi che, a quell’epoca avevamo fame, andare a raccogliere i biscotti da mangiare per i campi era una delizia.
FA: È certo.
AP: Boh. Altra cosa di ricordi che è un po’ più pesante è questa. Quando c’è stato il bombardamento nell’, all’officina ferroviaria di Voghera, dove lì riparavano e costruivano le vetture e i treni. Quando hanno, c’è stato quel bombardamento, io mi trovavo nelle vicinanze di Voghera, su una strada detta Capalla, che poi è quella lì che ho segnato lì, e andavo alla messa con mia nonna in bicicletta. Visti questi aerei che sganciavano bombe, che mi passavano sopra la testa, mi sono rifugiato in un casotto da vigna di campagna e mi sono infilato dentro un camino. Finito il tutto, finiti i bombardamenti, ne sono uscito, ho trovato mia nonna che era con me lì, ed ero nero e mi hanno preso per uno spazzacamino, tanto ero sporco e nero perché mi sono, intanto mi sono riparato sotto il camino. Ecco questo è un po’ il ricordo degli eventi dei bombardamenti. Altri fatti collegati a questi che ricordo sono l’occupazione della cascina mia questa da parte prima dei tedeschi e poi degli americani con i mongoli. Sono, hanno alloggiato qui con le loro truppe, cavalli, eccetera eccetera, ma di lì hanno occupato anche le nostre camere eh! Dormivano nelle nostre stanze. Niente di particolare, poi insomma. Un ricordo che mi viene e che ho ancora il segno adesso in un dito è che questi americani soldati avevano delle lattine, scatole di cioccolato, di roba, di dolciumi e io mi sono abbassato per raccogliere una scatola di questi, per mangiare i cioccolati, e mi sono tagliato un dito e ho ancora la cicatrice adesso, a distanza di 75 anni, pensa. Ricordo che mi hanno disinfettato subito e mi hanno messo su la, già la Penicillina, allora loro avevano già la penicillina, la polverina bianca, e m’hanno disinfettato, pensa, [unclear] e qui eravamo nel 1944, ecco. Ricordo un altro particolare dell’occupazione della guerra. Mi avevano, i tedeschi avevano requisito, requisivano gli animali e mi hanno requisito l’unico cavallo che c’era in cascina, che faceva i lavori agricoli, pensare il disagio, l’unico cavallo te lo portano via. Poi, per un caso di fortuna, me l’hanno rilasciato subito perché aveva la coda mozza, il mio, stava male, e allora me l’hanno
FA: L’hanno lasciato.
AP: Rilasciato. Ehm, ancora, ti posso dire, ricordare, che in quei tempi a fine la guerra o in quell’epoca lì, c’è stato, lo chiamavano un po’ il mercato nero. Venivano giù i genovesi col treno, portavano le lattine d’olio e noi gli davamo invece sacchetti di farina, lardo e salumi. Dove li avevamo noi i salumi, nascosti per non farceli rubare dai tedeschi e o, da mericani no, perché ne avevano da mangiare? Avevamo delle otri, che io ne ho ancora una lì fuori, te la faccio vedere, delle otri antiche, si mettevano dentro lardo e salumi, si facevano una buca nell’orto, si sotterrava, stava al fresco e si conservava e nessuno te la rubava. Altra cosa è questa: come si conservava le derrate alimentari. Avevamo il pozzo, profondo venti metri e calevamo con la cordicella il cestino nel pozzo con dentro il burro e altre sostanze alimentari, altre derrate, così stavano fresche. Ed era il frigorifero d’epoca, ecco, e abbastanza valido. Da ultimo, di queste cose, di questi ricordi, i quali mi meraviglio di saperli ricordare dopo tanto tempo, ghe passà settantacinc’anni, da queste cose. Che, due famiglie di operai delle officine ferroviarie di Voghera, che abitavano nei pressi di queste officine che sono state bombardate, avevano paura di dormire lì la notte. Venivano qui a dormire da noi. Abbiamo ospitato due famiglie. E dove dormivano? Nel fienile, ma erano sicuri,
FA: E certo.
AP: Almeno dai bombardamenti, e così è stato. Sono stati contenti e poi li ritrovati ancora, finita la guerra, insomma, li ho trovati, siamo sempre stati amici. Io non ricordo altro se non queste cose, o belle o brutte. Dimmi tu.
FA: Posso farle una domanda?
AP: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda mica di Pippo?
AP: Pippo, oh, sì, Pippo, oh, mi ricordo. Il lucino azzurro che girava di notte, sentivamo il rumore che , ma non faceva tanto
UI: Pippo si chiamava Pippo.
AP: Senti! Eh, questo. Questo era
UI: Ha sete?
FA: No, no grazie.
AP: Non disturbare, eh! Questo era la spia, un aereo spia americana non dei tedeschi, americana ecco. Io ricordo quell’aereo, sì.
FA: Eh girava tutte le notti.
AP: Girava tutte le notti. E la gente cosa faceva? Per non far, perché quello individuava dove c’erano delle luci. Tutti avevano fatto l’oscuramento ai vetri, le carte blu sui vetri per non fare vedere le luci.
UI: Non sparavano. Vado, vado.
AP: [unclear] Ecco poi, va’ avanti tu che sei stato disturbato adesso.
FA: Sì, beh, a parte Pippo, venivano spesso invece su Voghera? Voi da qua vedevate?
AP: Venivano spesso su Voghera e facevano il giro qui perché qui da Voghera è vicino, faceva il giro di notte ma lo si vedeva eh l’aereo, lo vedevamo. L’ho visto io, ricordo.
FA: Bombardavano di più di notte o di giorno?
AP: Di notte i bombardamenti e di giorno i mitragliamenti.
FA: Ah.
AP: Vedi, Il mitragliamento al camion dei biscotti sulla strada in pieno giorno. I bombardamenti all’officina ferroviaria di notte. Il ponte sullo Staffora a Voghera e altri che di cui ne parla anche il dottor Salerno, tutto di notte, che faceva più danno.
FA: Ho capito, va bene.
AP: Dimmi pure tu.
FA: E quindi lei da qui insomma vedeva quando bombardavano tutti i campi.
AP: Eh sì, si vedevano i, ma, non solo da qui vicino, di qui vedevamo quando sono stati fatti dei bombardamenti a Genova.
FA: Ah certo.
AP: Dei bagliori, mi ricordo io, si vedevamo da qui.
FA: E insomma, eravate preoccupati.
AP: Eh sì eh, sai, non si sa mai, se sono là, oggi sono là domani vengono qui, eravamo preoccupati. E poi, per fortuna, un bel momento, è finita.
FA: Meno male.
AP: È un po’ vedi che da quell’età lì è un po’ incosciente. Non, magari non avevo certi, certe paure. Adesso mi fai venire in mente una cosa. Quando c’erano i mitragliamenti, dove scappavamo noi qui? Qui nel confine della mia proprietà c’è un fosso, si chiama fosso di Bagnolino come, noi correvamo a rifugiarci in quel fosso lì, coricati, non un fosso, eravamo in una trincea,
FA: Certo.
AP: E io mi ricordo di aver visto le trincee fatte a zig-zag. Proprio per entrare la gente e ripararsi dalle, più dai mitragliamenti che dalle bombe.
FA: E questo a Voghera, le trincee a zig-zag.
AP: Nei, nelle periferie perché era dove c’è il terreno che hanno fatto questo, nelle periferie di Voghera, sì.
FA: Ah.
AP: Li chiamavano. Poi c’è, a Voghera c’erano dei rifugi ma quelli io non li ho mai visti perché non ci sono mai stato. Li sentivo nominare, i rifugi e suonavano gli allarmi quando arrivavano gli aerei in prossimità.
FA: E quindi voi sentivate gli allarmi di Voghera.
AP: Gli allarmi, stanno bombardando su Voghera e allora noi per precauzione ci rifugiavamo nel nostro fosso.
FA: Nel fosso.
AP: Nel fosso.
FA: Quindi era un po’ il vostro rifugio ecco.
AP: Sì, il rifugio locale era quello lì.
FA: Ho capito. Va bene. La ringrazio.
AP: Vuoi sapere d’altro? Dimmi tu, io, quello che ricordo e sono queste cose qui ecco. Ah, devo dirti anche che io ho lì un ricordo. Tu vuoi anche fotografarlo? Ti faccio vedere. E io ho un rimorchio agricolo che ha sotto quattro ruote dei Dodge americani, dei camion da guerra.
FA: Ah sì sì. Ah erano? Ah, ho capito.
AP: Ce li ho lì, e sono ancora in funzione, pensa, i gà cent’anni le robe lì.
FA: Eh sì.
AP: E sono, e li tengo perché, e li usiamo quei rimorchi lì. Eh sì, rispettandoli un po’ senza, però sono gomme da, i Dodge, famoso, e camion americani, o tedeschi, no americani
FA: Americani, americani. Va bene.
AP: Tu li vuoi fotografare? Te li faccio fotografare.
FA: No dopo, sì, dopo li, diamo un occhio.
AP: Va bene, direi che, l’intervista va benissimo.
AP: Ti piace così, ti va bene così? Se vuoi sapere qualcos’altro domandi tu.
FA: Va bene. No, direi che siamo a posto, i punti sono stati toccati. Va bene, allora.
AP: Ti posso anche far fotografare uno o due bossoli da mitraglie, da mitragliatrice antiaerea. Ne ho due io.
FA: Ah, li ha raccolti.
AP: Li ho raccolti, e c’erano anche quelli piccoli, ma quelli lì sono spariti, i bossoli così, quelli da mitragliatrice. Invece quelli da antiaerea, i bossoli sono questi, così.
FA: No ecco, adesso allora, visto che parliamo di antiaerea, lei ha visto qualche postazione di contraerea qua a Voghera?
AP: A Voghera, viste no, ne avevo sentito che c’era qualche postazione che difendevano ma facevano poco.
FA: Provavano a difendere.
AP: Provavano, sì ma ci voleva altro che delle cosine così contro quelli, i bombardieri quando. Io ricordo ancora adesso il rumore dei bombardieri, che erano terrificanti perché non era il rumore di un aereo solo, erano sette, otto, dieci bombardieri insieme, tutti insieme.
FA: Uno stormo.
AP: E ricordo anche il sibilo delle bombe, quando uscivano dall’aereo che venivano giù, fischiavano, te capì?
FA: Ho capito. Contraerea americana, ehm americana, tedesca o italiana?
AP: Dunque, la contraerea, questi che ci bombardavano noi, chi erano? Tedeschi? Adesso non mi ricordo più perché poi non, quelli là ci hanno liberati, gli americani sono venuti a liberarci e c’erano sotto i tedeschi e sì, sì, eh.
FA: Quindi italiana insomma.
AP: Sì.
Fa: Ho capito. Va bene, la ringrazio per questa intervista.
AP: Prego.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andreino Pagano
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:58 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APaganoA170712
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Pavia
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Andreino Pagano (b. 1934) remembers his wartime experiences in the Pavia province. He explains how a parish church provided a good shelter owing to its thick walls. Recalls various stories: resorting to the black market, the bombing of the Voghera railway works, daytime strafing of a lorry delivering biscuit boxes, scattering them all over the place, the driver seeking shelter inside a vineyard cottage fireplace and afterwards being mistaken for a chimney sweep as he was covered in soot; Germans seizing his only workhorse which was later returned, being 'bobtailed'. Describes how his farmhouse was first occupied by German and then American soldiers, the latter coming with so-called ‘Mongols’. Remembers the first use of Penicillin and food being stored in a well like a larder. Mentioning 'Pippo' flying and recollecting blacked-out windows covered with blue paper. He remembers the droning noise made by the bombers and the bombs as they were falling.
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/437/7768/ABoiocchiS170225.1.mp3
a2fbdcaf2567650a931cc3eb4557f924
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boiocchi, Sandro
Sandro Boiocchi
S Boiocchi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Sandro Boiocchi who recollects his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boiocchi, S
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FA: Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare il signor Sandro Boiocchi. Siamo a Travacò Siccomario in provincia di Pavia, è il 25 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Boiocchi per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Boiocchi, vuole ricordarci la sua esperienza, i suoi anni, qui a Travacò?
SB: Sì. Io sono nato nel 1941, ero bambino ma ricordo, ricordo perfettamente, ehm, i periodi che abbiamo attraversato durante la guerra e ricordo esattamente, [clears throat] esattamente come, ad esempio quella volta che, ehm, con mio padre, che mi teneva per mano. Ehm, dunque intanto noi qua siamo nel territorio di Travacò, che è il triangolo di confluenza fra il Pò e il Ticino. Nelle immediate confiniamo con il Borgo Ticino nella parte più bassa del Borgo che è il Borgo, cosiddetto Borgo Basso e con, e quindi con gli abitanti del Ticino che, ehm, per dire come sono le cose, i borghigiani si sentivano un po’ come, come un grosso paese cioè, ehm, è Pavia però il fiume ha definito la città dall’altra parte e questi erano legati alle nostre campagne, alle nostre amicizie eccetera eccetera. Quindi scoppia la guerra [coughs] e ci sono stati furiosi bombardamenti sul ponte del, sul vecchio ponte coperto e anche sull’altro ponte perché i ponti erano vie di comunicazione che, ehm, sicuramente per questioni strategiche dei vari, dei vari paesi in conflitto dovevano essere eliminiati e quindi rendere più difficile, ehm, lo svolgersi della vita normale o i passaggi di truppe, i passaggi di elementi eccetera. Ehm, quindi i borghigiani e molti si son visti crollare addosso le case, ci sono state tante vittime eccetera perché non è mica che le bombe a quel tempo fossero intelligenti come quelle di oggi, anche se di bombe intelligenti non ce ne sono perché lì è ignoranza e basta, non è intelligenza e chi distrugge non fa mai cose buone. Ehm, e quindi la popolazione del Borgo e praticamente scappava e si rifugiava nei paesi attorno e noi siamo stati il primo paese che ha avuto ma anche questa ricchezza, io la chiamo di tutta questa gente che scappava e tutte le nostre famiglie ospitavano questi sfollati che non sapevano neanche, ehm, dove andare. Ehm, quindi tanti facevano parte del gruppo partigiani di Travacò perché qua si era costituito un gruppo di resistenza al regime che era molto consistente, molto attivo. Ehm, e quindi, e quindi, vorrei dire anche che quel, nell’occasione, va beh lasciamo stare, andiamo con ordine. E quindi tantissimi ospitati da noi, ehm, si sono allontanati diciamo dai pericoli più gravi che avrebbero vissuto. Ehm, e poi riprenderò ancora questo problema, questo aspetto del, diciamo, di questi sfollati perché ci sono stati dei, cose che hanno determinato poi anche fatti importanti. Intanto, ehm, io ricordo perfettamente quando mio padre, ehm, mi ha portato con lui nella zona della confluenza, oggi è la zona dove, dove abbiamo costituito la grande foresta. Ehm, e ricordo anche il punto pressappoco dove è caduto un aereo, sembra che fosse un aereo tedesco, colpito dalla nostra contraerea perché al Vul, nell’Area Vul c’era la contraerea che cercava di colpire gli aerei che cercavano di bombardare il ponte e bombardare Pavia. E ricordo perfettamente perché ci siamo avvicinati a quell’aereo, e quell’aereo che era messo tutto sgangherato ormai e c’era sopra un pilota morto con la testa chinata e mio padre mi ha allontanato e così ecco questo è uno dei ricordi. Ricordo perfettamente quando hanno fatto saltare la, era l’inverno del ’43, quello è una roba che non posso dimenticare perché è scoppiata la polveriera, la santabarbara che c’era oltre il Ticino nel territorio di Pavia qua da noi
FA: Albaredo Arnaboldi se non sbaglio
SB: Scarpone
FA: Sì, ecco, esatto, sì, sì, sì.
SB: Nella zona di Scarpone, allora nonostante questa distanza io ricordo che la nostra casa allora io abitavo a frazione Boschi, là,
FA: Sì.
SB: A cinquanta metri dalla Marzia, dove c’è la trattoria. Ehm, siamo rimasti senza vetri, porte, son cadute anche le porte, le finestre, ehm, e quindi ricordo i miei nonni, ricordo mio padre eccetera che hanno dovuto tamponare con delle cose di emergenza perché c’era freddo, eravamo in casa e c’era anche forse ghiaccio, neve, roba del genere, ehm e quindi sono stati brutti momenti.
FA: Per lo spostamento d’aria?
SB: Per lo spostamento d’aria, per lo spostamento d’aria ma un boato esagerato eh, un boato esagerato. Cosa ha combinato dall’altra parte non lo so nelle zone più vicine, noi a questa distanza abbiamo notato questo. Ma ho vissuto anche gli ultimi momenti dei rastrellamenti che si facevano periodicamente perché noi, io ricordo, bambino con questi, ehm, tedeschi in divisa, allora io non sapevo chi erano, ma in divisa i tedeschi poi la divisa l’ho, più tardi ho potuto capire che li qualificava come tedeschi, accompagnati dai gerarchi fascisti del posto entravano nelle case e cercavano. Allora di mangiare non ce n’era, la farina non c’era, il riso non c’era, si viveva di espedienti, funzionava mi è stato detto poi un mercato nero di chi aveva possibilità però ma la gente comune non aveva niente, viveva delle risorse che c’erano,
FA: Del territorio.
SB: Che c’erano qua sul territorio, erano le verdure, erano la frutta, erano un po’ tutte queste cose. Ehm, e quindi questi rastrellamenti e ricordo perfettamente che sono entrati un gruppetto formati da tre tedeschi accompagnati da un paio di borghesi che questi erano sicuramente quelli, i nostri che collaboravano con gli occupanti tedeschi, ehm. E hanno fatto aprire tutti gli armadi, gli armadi, la madia del tavolo che una volta c’erano i tavoli
FA: Sì, sì, c’era [unclear]
SB: E c’era la tavola che si alzava e dentro lì si metteva il pane eccetera. Ehm, mia madre [pauses and starts crying], scusami, [pauses] ha avuto il coraggio di affrontarli anche [pauses] cacciandoli fuori perché [clears throat] in quella casa c’erano [pauses] bambini, io e i miei fratelli che avevamo niente da mangiare quindi cosa cercavano in questo nostre case? Non c’era niente, si viveva e basta ecco. Ehm, quelli ricordo che hanno abbassato la testa perché mia mamma gli ha detto: ‘Ma vergognatevi, cosa venite a fare qua? Ma non vedete in che condizioni siamo? Non vedete come viviamo? Non abbiamo niente! Quindi andate fuori, andate fuori dalle scatole!’ Ecco, una cosa così insomma. Beh questo lo ricordo perfettamente. E ricordo perfettamente che c’era in quel periodo un aereo che tutti noi lo chiamavamo Pippo, questo aereo che, come vedeva una luce, come vedeva, non so di notte anche eh, perché di notte quando noi lo sentivamo in lontananza quando arrivava e, e allora tutti a nascondersi. Qua noi, i rifugi soprattutto per noi erano le stalle che c’erano anche perché di riscaldamenti non ce n’erano, ehm, la vita anche fuori era pericolosa e quindi il fatto di raccogliere legna oppure erano momenti in cui arrivavano bombe da tutte le parti e quindi le stalle servivano anche per scaldarci perché ricordo che da bambini con i, con quelli più anziani, andavamo, ci trovavamo un po’ nelle stalle, un po’ di qua, un po’ di là perché con, con il bestiame c’era un clima, un clima che era tiepido insomma,
FA: Certo.
SB: E quindi ci sembrava anche. Ehm, e comunque gli ordini che c’erano tassativi anche da parte dei nostri genitori, dei nonni perché allora erano famiglie patriarcali eccetera: prima di tutto, quando veniva buio non bisognava accendere la luce; se c’era una necessità di accendere la luce solo per quel momento, tappando bene tutte le finestre eccetera perché altrimenti le luci erano visti dall’alto e lì c’era il rischio di avere bombardamenti. Ehm, dicevo prima che, poverini, quelli del borgo che sono sfollati da noi ma da noi sono arrivate bombe ad esempio, sono arrivate bombe che, che so, bombe impazzite, non lo so, non, oppure lasciate da un aereo che era stato colpito che sono cadute anche qua nel nostro territorio quindi, che però non sono esplose. Ce n’è una ad esempio, ehm, nella zona dell’agriturismo della Valbona che era caduta ed è scomparsa, sarà entrata in falda e non, anche le ricerche dopo non sono mai state, non hanno mai dato un frutto positivo. Ecco, quindi era una vita, una vita tremenda, sono stati momenti di paure e poi tutti hanno avuto un lutto in un senso o nell’altro, ad esempio, ehm, gente che si era nascosta, ehm, in, dove noi abbiamo i fossi sotto la strada ci sono le tubature e lì sono, sono scoppiate bombe vicine e abbiamo almeno un caso di due fratelli che si erano nascosti lì sotto e sono esplosi assieme alle bombe perché lo spostamento d’aria li ha disintegrati lì sotto il ponte. Ehm, quindi eh, quindi era una vita, una vita estremamente, noi non ci rendevamo conto perché i più piccini cosa facevano? Piangevano perché avevano fame. Piangevano perché sentivano sparare da tutte le parti, scendevano le bombe eccetera eccetera. Ecco noi abbiamo in quei momenti solidarizzato molto con i, gli sfollati che di fatto da qualche anno, ehm, prima del ’45, fino al ’45 perché poi con la liberazione abbiamo, abbiamo, tutto si è sistemato eccetera. Ehm, ma per anni hanno partecipato alla nostra vita, noi abbiamo avuto tantissimi, erano sfollati nell’oratorio di Travacò, nell’oratorio di Travacò c’era un borghigiano, Schiappini, che poi noi abbiamo un suo scritto, ce lo ricordava lui questa roba. Avevamo un vecchio prete, Don Morone all’epoca, che era veramente un prete e viveva per gli altri, e siccome aveva, aveva le scarpe rotte e d’inverno girava con le dita dei piedi fuori dalle scarpe questi borghigiani hanno fatto una colletta e hanno dati i soldi a questo prete che era venuto a Pavia per comprarsi le scarpe. E se lo son visto poi ritornare ancora nonostante questo con i piedi fuori dalle scarpe e gli hanno chiesto: ‘Ma, prevosto, come mai? Gli abbiamo dato i soldi per comprare le scarpe?’ E lui fa: ‘Guarda, [crying] ho incontrato uno che stava peggio di me [crying] e quindi le ho comprate per quello, non l’ho fatto’. Questo per dire i momenti che erano e la gente che c’era in quel momento.
FA: Certo.
SB: Noi , di questi borghigiani c’era la famiglia Maggi che era la madre, no che era la, era nella famiglia di Borgo Basso, di Via Milazzo, di Borgo Ticino ed erano scappati qua, erano scappati qua per fuggire appunto dai bombardamenti ed erano presso una famiglia, una famiglia guida che a trenta metri da casa mia. Con i bombardamenti questa donna era, stava per partorire e con questi bombardamenti poi ha partorito ma ha perso il latte, ha perso il latte. Mia madre aveva avuto mio fratello proprio in quel momento e allora la famiglia che lo ospitava erano venuti da mia madre, da mia madre per vedere, siccome era una donna un po’ rigogliosa diciamo, un po’ formosa, e diciamo e aveva un seno molto abbondante, ehm, gli hanno chiesto se avesse allattato anche quell’altro bambino. Mia madre l’ha fatto, ha detto: ‘ Io ne allatto uno e allatto anche l’altro se mi viene il latte’, infatti così è stato. Quel bambino oggi è il reverendo Don Maggi del, parroco del duomo di Pavia, è stato rettore del collegio Borromeo eccetera, Ernestino Maggi con il quale siamo ancora in ottimi rapporti e che lui, e che lui, beh lui, ehm, aveva due anni meno di me, ricorda poco. Ehm, quindi quando cinquant’anni dopo abbiamo fatto, adesso ritorno un attimo a quello che dicevo prima, quando abbiamo fatto quella rimpatriata concordando con il presidente del comitato di quartiere Borgo che è il Vittorio Chierico che tra l’altro è uno storico appassionato e che quindi, ehm, ha raccolto tante memorie e anche fatto diversi testi su queste cose, ehm, abbiamo fatto una rimpatriata qua a Travacò. C’era anche monsignore Bordoni che è stato, era parroco di Pavia ed era il direttore del giornale il Ticino della diocesi di Pavia e che lui, ehm, ha vissuto in mezzo ai bombardmenti, in mezzo, dentro le macerie perché fra l’altro, ehm, ha ricordato anche lui a tutti noi il suo lavoro di parroco nel soccorrere i feriti eccetera eccetera. C’era don, la famiglia di don Ernestino, c’erano tutti i borghigiani e in quell’occasione lì c’erano anche, ehm, tutti i famigliari che ricordavano queste cose. È stata una bellissima giornata, noi l’abbiamo passata assieme a, per ricordare tutte le nostre vicende comuni e guarda caso comunque dicevo prima qualche borghigiano tipo Abbà, Amleto Abbà, che non c’è più neanche lui, era partigiano qua da noi, ce n’erano anche altri e, ehm ecco, e lì abbiamo intervistato, noi come amministrazione comunale, tramite anche l’assessore alla cultura eccetera, ehm, i partigiani presenti anche il gruppo di Travacò ehm e abbiamo, e abbiamo messo queste interviste in un opuscoletto edito dalla nostra biblioteca. Ecco, vorrei dire che comunque il primo sindaco dopo la Liberazione di fatto è stato Luigi Fregnani, uno dei partigiani borghigiani che era di Travacò quindi è stato il primo sindaco nominato dal CLN e poi con le prime elezioni che ci sono state successivamente dopo la Liberazione ehm. È importante aver ricordato questo perché poi c’è stato un seguito di fatto. Il seguito è stato che il, queste interviste che noi abbiamo fatto ma anche per avere dei ricordi pensando che le cose finissero lì insomma ecco ehm e pensando che questi ricordi potevano servire in futuro qualche cosa. Succede che questa intervista, cioè che questo opuscolo finisce in mano a un graduato dei carabinieri che stava lavorando attorno alla storia dei carabinieri a Pavia, nella zona eccetera. E ehm, e questo qua a un certo punto, ma sto parlando di un paio di anni fa, neanche, un anno e mezzo fa, ormai eravamo, siamo diventati amici per altre cose, eravamo già amici, mi chiama e mi dice: ‘Ma senti, ma voi avete fatto quell’opuscolo lì, avete, ma vi rendete conto che, sotto, io sto trovando cose che hanno tutti riferimenti a Travacò’. Allora, ehm, abbiamo di fatto, ehm, visto un po’ tutta la nostra storia, e abbiamo fatto ancora altre ricerche e stiamo per pubblicare un libro sulle cose che abbiamo scoperto. Allora, intanto abbiamo scoperto che Travacò era strategicamente importante per la lotta di liberazione per i, i movimenti e i passaggi sia di armi sia di partigiani da Milano verso l’Oltrepò, arrivavano a Pavia, traghettavano il Ticino, erano a Travacò ma erano anche pronti ad attraversare il Pò ed essere un collegamento con i partigiani dell’Oltrepò delle colline eccetera. Noi qua avevamo il maresciallo Corippo che era il maresciallo all’epoca di Borgo Ticino che e avevamo il maggiore Olinto Chiaffarelli che era il comandante della caserma dei carabinieri di Pavia che in quell’epoca, e questo è quello che abbiamo scoperto dopo, in quell’epoca erano, si sono messi in aspettativa perché quando il Mussolini ha creato la Repubblica di Salò, voleva anche che tutti i carabinieri e tutte le organizzazioni militari eccetera aderissero alla Repubblica di Salò. Questi carabinieri, quindi il nostro maresciallo e Olinto Chiaffarelli, allora era, mi pare che fosse colonello o maggiore, adesso non ricordo bene, che comandava la caserma di Pavia, si sono messi in aspettativa, hanno detto: ‘Noi non aderiamo alla, ehm, alla Repubblica di Salò perché abbiamo fatto un giuramento. Noi abbiamo giurato al re’, perché in quel momento il re si era separato dal Duce, dal governo, e lì è scoppiato il finimondo perché tutti erano allo sbando, erano allo sbando le nostre caserme, erano allo sbando tutti i carabinieri, polizia eccetera perché chi aderiva da una parte, chi aderiva dall’altra eccetera eccetera, loro hanno detto: ‘Noi abbiamo giurato al re, non aderiamo a quella parte e ci mettiamo in aspettativa e quindi ci togliamo’. Ecco, questi due, quindi il maresciallo Corippo e il comandante Chiaffarelli con le loro famiglie erano a Travacò. Allora noi abbiamo avuto, ecco l’intersecazione della storia nostra con i carabinieri, erano a Travacò il comandante Chiaffarelli con la famiglia era alla Cascina Orologio, cinquanta metri distanti dalla Marzia, lì c’è una grossa cascina verso l’argine e erano alloggiati lì con la famiglia e la, il Chiaffarelli alla Cascina Carnevala, è quella cascina se lei torna indietro per Pavia dalla zona della Battella,
FA: Sì?
SB: Che esce in borgo, vede una bella cascina dove c’è la curva a gomito,
FA: Sì?
SB: Ecco, quella è la cascina Carnevala e lì c’era ed era una cascina [laughs] del podestà fascista che c’era all’epoca. Però c’era la famiglia di Chiaffarelli lì. Noi tutte queste cose adesso poi le produciamo nel nostro libro che facciamo. Ehm, poi avevamo un altro carabiniere di Travacò che era Colombi e avevamo e c’era un altro carabiniere, che era Vittorio Caraffa, che era a Mezzano, era sfollato qua in un’altra famiglia. Allora, questi carabinieri di fatto, allora il comandante di Pavia Chiaffarelli era il comandante addirittura di tutta l’area Nord, verso Milano eccetera, della Resistenza. Il comandante Corippo era, era quello che aveva anche lui compiti direttivi, ehm, e, ed era in contatto con i nostri capi partigiani del luogo. Tant’è vero che i capi dei partigiani qua erano di fatto Corippo e Crepaldi e Crepaldi ehm, che era, ehm, un milanese che aveva fatto il militare a Pavia in quell’epoca, poi si era fatto la morosa a Travacò, poi si è sposato anche lui con una di Travacò eccetera. Ehm, quindi c’è tutta una storia allora noi abbiamo scoperto attraverso queste indagini poi con l’estensione dei carabinieri intanto il gruppo di, dei carabinieri di Travacò comandati da Corippo il giorno 26 aprile, ehm, il giorno 26 aprile stavano aspettando l’ordine per contrastare i tedeschi che comunque erano già in ritirata. C’era una colonna di tedeschi nella zona del vallone e bisognava, e bisognava che questi fossero accerchiati e accompagnati per la ritirata verso, verso il Brennero, non so da che parte, perché stavano lasciando comunque l’Italia però attenzione, stavano lasciando l’Italia ma con la rabbia dentro e quindi dove incontravano, incontravano qualcuno, sparavano eh quindi uccidevano ancora, anche durante la ritirata. È arrivato l’ordine di, ehm, e Corippo aveva dato l’ordine a, di tenersi pronti perché il 24 o il 25, no, o il 25 o il 26, ehm, avrebbero dovuto attraversare il Ticino e quindi contrastare questi tedeschi che erano in ritirata. Noi abbiamo avuto un morto lì perché il nostro gruppo ha partecipato a quella, c’è stato uno scontro con, con i tedeschi ed è morto il carabiniere Colombi di Travacò. Quindo Travacò ha dato anche lui un contributo di vite umane e anche per la liberazione. Ehm, ecco queste sono le cose che poi abbiamo scoperto dopo ma c’è ancora una cosa: allora, stranamente, stranamente, questo l’ho sempre sentito anche dagli stessi partigiani, i tedeschi che hanno occupato questo territorio erano, erano ehm, solidarizzavano con le nostre famiglie cioè non hanno mai, a parte un fatto che è succeso che poi lo dirò, ehm, non, ehm, c’era stato un ordine - questo l’abbiamo scoperto dopo - un ordine dall’alto, parlo per la lotta di liberazione naturalmente, che Travacò e il suo gruppo partigiani di Travacò non doveva disturbare i tedeschi, non doveva scontrarsi con i tedeschi, non dovevano creare condizioni di contrasto. Il perché non l’ha mai saputo nessuno, l’abbiamo scoperto noi. E l’ho scoperto dopo perché noi abbiamo scoperto che Travacò era il luogo dove c’era la maggiore quantità di armi per la lotta di liberazione perché nei boschi di Travacò, ehm, lasciarono giù con gli aerei le munizioni che il comandante Chiaffarelli tutte armi che catturavano ai tedeschi eccetera eccetera venivano calate qua e poi distribuite, distribuite nelle case, nelle stalle, nelle botole, ad esempio sotto il tavolo del comandante Corippo, sotto il tavolo, c’era una botola. Corippo aveva due bambine piccole, il maresciallo aveva due bambine piccole e in quella botola lì c’erano armi, c’erano una quantità di armi non indifferenti. La moglie di Corippo ha avuto il coraggio e la prontezza di sedere le bimbe sopra il tavolo, di mascherare un po’ perché se avessero visto quella botola lì si fucilavano subito le persone e quindi, ci sono stati rastrellamenti e anche sparatorie con le mitraglie dove c’è il fieno nelle cascine eccetera perché pensavano che diversi partigiani si nascondessero nelle cascine e questa è la verità. Noi avevamo ad esempio anche quattro inglesi qua, che venivano ospitati clandestinamente nelle famiglie, erano ricercati dai tedeschi e, ehm, e le famiglie facevano a turno a, di giorno nei boschi a portare, a portare il cibo a questi qua, di notte dormivano nelle case che le ospitavano. Allora questo ordine di strategia l’abbiamo poi capito il perché. Perché qua non, doveva succedere nessun conflitto perché questo luogo era sacro ai fini della resistenza e ai fini dei passaggi da qua all’Oltrepò, dall’Oltrepò. Il Luigi Fregnani che poi, il borghigiano che poi è diventato sindaco ci ha confermato che lui aveva il compito di traghettare da Pavia o di collaborare con i traghettatori che da Pavia venivano a Travacò e che da Travacò andavano nell’Oltrepò e viceversa, e viceversa. Quindi abbiamo potuto poi ricostruire le cose che, ehm, che abbiamo avuto il piacere di conoscere, compreso il fatto che due partigiani, molto vicini di casa, non sapevano uno con l’altro che tutte e due avevano armi perché allora, se fosse trapelata una notizia o qualcuno che si fosse sbilanciato, sbilanciato, avrebbe rischiato la vita, non solo sua ma anche di tutta la famiglia. Quindi lì c’era l’intelligenza militare dei carabinieri, che, ehm, avevano creato dei compartimenti stagni in modo più assoluto, uno non sapeva cosa faceva l’altro, arrivava un ordine e ognuno doveva muoversi secondo gli ordini che arrivavano. Quindi per dire che, ehm, questa roba ha funzionato e noi siamo riusciti a scoprire dopo che almeno una quindicina di siti, almeno una quindicina di siti appunto c’erano nascoste armi, qualcuno nella mangiatoia, qualcuno nella stalla, qualcuno nella botola nell’orto, qualcuno nel cascinale, qualcuno, eccetera eccetera e quindi Travacò era comunque una, sarebbe stato una polveriera ma, ehm, per rifornire gli altri in battaglia e non tanto, ehm, perché qua di battaglie non ne dovevano accadere da quello che abbiamo capito. Quindi, ehm, ecco queste sono state le, ehm, la vita vissuta da noi e dalla gente di quei momenti e ehm, e anche, ehm, e anche dai nostri, dai nostri compaesani e dai nostri borghigiani che hanno partecipato con noi a questa vita, non dico. Ah noi abbiamo avuto delle persone che addirittura, noi abbiamo avuto il medico condotto, il dottor Ruozzi tanto per citarne uno, che, ehm, che ha, ehm, che curava a rischio perché era anche stato portato via accusato di curare i partigiani eccetera e quello ha avuto il coraggio di dire ai tedeschi: ‘Io sono un medico e io faccio il medico, non chiedo, ehm, una fede politica per curare uno o l’altro, curo tutti quelli che vengono da me’. E quindi il dottor Ruozzi è stato anche lui uno, ehm, un eroe, così come è stato eroe il partigiano Lavina che, [laughs] quello faceva parte del nostro gruppo partigiani che appena c’è stato sentore che era imminente la liberazione, lui aveva lavorato un po’ di anni in Germania, sapeva parlare il tedesco, il tedeschi lo usavano un po’ anche come interprete però era un partigiano di quelli anche abbastanza tosti e con una mitraglia, una mitraglia che un essere umano non riusciva a portare, con la forza della disperazione, dicendo parole in tedesco ha fatto uscire tutto il comando tedesco che c’era qua da noi con le mani in alto, perché lui ha fatto credere, parlando in tedesco che c’era, ehm, che il comando era accerchiato, che dovevano arrendersi. Qunado hanno visto che, invece, era una persona sola e che poi sono arrivati anche gli altri partigiani, ormai era tardi, e quindi sono stati beffati anche loro in questo modo, non ci sono state sparatorie perché quelli si sono arresi e, ehm, e tutto è finito lì. Ecco, io altro non saprei cosa dire ma ci sono anche tanti altri episodi ma la roba verrebbe un po’ troppo lunga.
FA: Vorrei farle una domanda, un paio di domande. Voi da qua, dal vostro punto di vista, dei suoi ricordi, vedevate quello che succedeva giù al borgo quando, quando bombardavano?
SB: No, no, no. Noi, ehm, diciamo perché, la vita era praticamente bloccata. Uno non si azzardava ad andare in Borgo se non per necessità perché ad esempio in Borgo c’era il farmacista Ricotti, la farmacia Ricotti del Borgo era un po’, ehm, era la nostra farmacia, allora per le necessità sì però, ehm, e quindi ci venivi, no, e quindi toccavamo con mano che la gente che è venuta qua non aveva neanche più la casa in Borgo perché il Borgo, ehm, più vicino al Ponte, tutto attorno al Ponte, era tutto giù.
FA: Certo.
SB: E quindi, e quindi, non ci siamo resi conto, dopo ci siamo resi conto, quando c’è stata la Liberazione, allora abbiamo visto. Ci siamo trovati con, con una tristezza esagerata, con tutto da ricostruire, con tutto da fare, con tutto da organizzare e lì ci sono voluti anche gli anni ma però la vita ha ripreso il suo corso e, e tutto ha cominciato a funzionare, e, funzionare.
FA: Certo. Un’ultima cosa. Ehm, gli sfollati che arrivavano a Travacò, ehm, erano organizzati diciamo secondo un sistema assistenziale condotto da qualcuno oppure erano un flusso autonomo, diciamo casuale?
SB: No, no, no. Allora nelle nostre zone di sistemi assistenziali non ne esistevano perché tutta la popolazione aveva bisogno di essere assistita si può dire. Qua non c’era niente per nessuno, tutti erano in miseria, tutti avevano, eccetto qualcuno naturalmente, no? Ehm, quindi era un po’ un’assistenza fai da te, di solidarietà, erano, uno aiutava l’altro. Se un vicino di casa non, aveva un bisogno c’era, c’era sicuramente la famiglia che lo aiutava quindi era un’assistenza che funzionava così. Solo dopo con la ripresa, dopo la Liberazione, allora le prime amministrazioni si sono dovute occupare anche dei problemi di assistenza,
FA: Questo problema.
SB: Perché anche questo era uno degli aspetti principali insomma perché se no, non si sopravviveva eh.
FA: Sì, quindi non era, per dire, il comune di Pavia o l’esercito, i carabinieri che li mandavano. Si spostavano secondo la loro esigenza.
SB: No, no, no, no. E poi ricordo che hanno costituito il patronato e noi bambini a scuola avevamo il contributo del comune per acquistare i libri, i quaderni eccetera, c’erano. Ecco, si sono organizzati, sono state organizzate dopo le varie assistenze, le varie organizzazioni che poi si occupavano di seguire queste miserie perché in effetti era una miseria generale insomma.
FA: Va bene. La ringraziamo allora per questa intervista.
SB: Per quel che può servire, grazie a voi, anche se m’avete fatto un po’ ritornare nella mente cose che avevamo già cancellato.
FA: La ringraziamo.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Sandro Boiocchi
Description
An account of the resource
Sandro Boiocchi remembers wartime memories at Travacò, in the Pavia area. Mentions various episodes: food shortages, the black market, fascist and German roundups, Pippo flying at night, bombing of bridges, giving shelter to evacuees. Tells how stables provided warm shelter but were also used as hidden storage for weapons. Mentions seeing an aircraft taken down in the woods, with a dead pilot still inside the cockpit. Remembers the blowing up of an ammunition dump and the following blast wave, which shattered their windows and doors. Describes the strict instructions issued by parents and relatives to black out the windows extremely well in order not to serve as a target for bombings at night. Tells of when his mother stood up against a group of Germans and fascists intending to search their house for food and how she told them off. Recounts episodes of selfless generosity and moral integrity . Explains how, following a direct order from the partisan leaders, actions against the German troops were forbidden in the Travacò area, of strategic importance for the resistance and where huge amounts of weapons were stacked. Tells of Carabinieri opposing the Fascist regime, having pledged allegiance to the king. Tells how, in absence of authority, the population resorted to informal mutual assistance networks.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-02-25
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Peter Schulze
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00:43:10 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
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ABoiocchiS170225
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/444/7890/AAn01183-170724.2.mp3
271a5ea25e85262493c6a3a7bf23639b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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A survivor of the Voghera bombings (informant B)
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with an informant who remembers his wartime experiences in Voghera.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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An01183
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Transcription
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Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare [omitted]. Siamo a Voghera, è il 29 agosto 2017. Ringraziamo il signor [omitted] per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Marchese, vuole raccontarci i suoi ricordi, le sue esperienze durante gli anni di guerra, sotto le bombe a Voghera?
GM: Dunque, io all’epoca, all’inizio della guerra avevo undici anni, undici anni però ero già sveglio insomma eh. E la dichiarazione di guerra non è, ce, ce l’aspettavamo insomma, c’era, era attesa. Però i primi diciamo due anni, la leggevi sui giornali e basta la guerra, la leggevi, perché la cittadina come Voghera non è che fosse informata o, guarda poi leggevi i giornali (?). Dal ’43, dal 1943 invece è diventata un po’ pesante nel senso che Voghera, io avevo un diario avevo che non ho più ritrovato purtroppo nei traslocchi che ho fatto a Voghera c’erano state circa ottanta incursioni durante il periodo dal ’43 al ’45, ci sono state circa ottanta incursioni fra bombardieri grossi e cacciabombardieri, cacciabombardieri c’erano tutti i giorni, mitragliavano, qualunqua cosa si muovesse mitragliavano e i bombardieri bombardavano i ponti della ferrovia, pero’ di danni alla popolazione sono stati abbastanza relativi. Fino a che siamo arrivati a quel bombardamento che tutti dicono fosse stato terroristico del ’44. Nel mese di agosto del ’44, che effettivamente è stato pesante perché, a parte il fatto che diverse correnti di pensiero dicono che i morti siano arrivati a cinquecento addirittura e io, sono un po’ sopravvissuto a quello lì perché come ripeto un quarto d’ora prima ho fatto proprio il percorso dove sono cadute tutte le bombe e mi trovavo diretto a casa, erano le sette di sera, però era già tutto il giorno che ricognitori giravano in alto [unclear] tutto sopra la città e la gente diceva, ma come mai continuano a girare sti aerei qui sopra? Uno, si davano il cambio fino verso sera. Una giornata bellissima di agosto, un sole bello, e la gente, però la gente, sì, ci faceva caso ma faceva gli affari suoi faceva. Poi verso le, ecco io verso le sette io sono uscito dal lavoro, ho fatto il centro di Voghera, ho imboccato il Corso XXVII Marzo e come sono arrivato a metà Corso XXVII Marzo, a due passi da casa, è scoppiato il finimondo. Tutta la strada che avevo fatto dietro era bombe, bombe, crateri e bombe perché, dalla chiesa, dalla Via Emilia, Piazza Meardi dove hanno distrutto il Bar Ligure, è tutta una scena, tante case lì dove c’era la casa di riposo tra l’altro, c’era la casa di riposo, la casa per i poveri dove il comune distribuì i pasti e tutta la zona dietro, dove ci sono, adesso c’è il palazzo della SIP, su quello quadrato lì era raso al suolo proprio, Piazza Meardi tutta rasa al suolo, dove c’era il Bar, dove c’è adesso il Cafè Cervinia e compagnia bella. È durato una bella oretta la caserma dei, un pezzo della caserma, un pezzo di Corso Genova e io alla prima bomba che ho sentito scoppiare, sarà stata a cinquanta metri d’aria da me, perché è scoppiata in Via Pietro Giuria allora mi sono messo coricato per terra vicino e poi, e poi addio, il finimondo, bombe, bombe, bombe, bombe, finchè poi non si vedeva più niente, un odore acre di esplosivo che non riuscivi a respirare e un, che non si vedeva una persona a un metro di distanza dalla polvere, dalla e lì era di corsa sono arrivato in casa a cercare i miei cercare, effettivamente era ancora, era in casa mia mamma, mia sorella e mio papà che era a letto con, ammalato era, ammalato. Allora [ho detto?, unclear], ragazzi eran lì che ci siamo abbracciati e lo spostamento d’aria ci faceva girare da una parete all’altra ci faceva, lo spostamento d’aria delle bombe che cadevano. Poi, poi bum, è finita su, era la prima ondata perché poi è venuta una seconda ondata di bombardieri, B-12, hanno fatto posto, hanno sbagliato, fortunatamente la seconda andata hanno scaricato le bombe tutte oltre di là alla ferrovia, nei campi. Questi qui hanno, i primi dodici hanno, quelli lì, la seconda ondata o l’hanno fatta apposta o si sono sbagliati, non lo so, hanno sbagliato penso. Al di là della stazione, della ferrovia c’erano i campi c’erano e sono cadute tutte là perché altrimenti se cadevano anche quelle in citta’ era, era il finimondo. Ecco e lì abbiamo cominciato veramente ad avere paura insomma lì e allora lì e sai gira, esci, vai in casa, passata, cercare di vedere, di dare una mano a qualcuno ma era un problema perché c’era, non si poteva passare da nessuna parte, macerie dappertutto, macerie. La Croce Rossa che, la Croce Rossa [unclear] portati via a piedi no, con la barella con le ruote delle biciclette dopo [unclear] per cercare di dare una mano e compagnia bella ma come ripeto il disastro più grosso è stato lì Piazza Meardi che fece [unclear] i morti e lì si è andata avanti tutta la notte a scavare, scavare, scavare.
FA: A lavorare.
GM: E noi a casa, a riparare un po’ i danni perché, anche a casa nostra, i spostamenti e compagnia bella era, c’era di tutto in casa c’era perche’ poi tra l’altro due bombe mi sono cadute proprio in cortile,
FA: Ah!
GM: In cortile, dove la casa era in cortile c’era la cucina e il resto dell’appartamento era verso la strada, due bombe sono cadute proprio davanti alla cucina, la cucina era sparita, c’era di tutto in casa, ecco, e lì ci siamo tirati su le maniche e via, e siamo partiti, e siamo ripartiti.
FA: Eh certo.
GM: Pero’ poi è stato veramente un segnale che come sentivi poi un aereo, come sentivi, perché le sirene non suonavano neanche più perché arrivavano prima gli aerei delle sirene d’allarme. Come sentiva un aereo la gente terrorizzata scappava nelle cantine, nelle, dove poteva insomma, ecco.
FA: Dove trovava. Quindi lei durante quell’incursione lì dalla strada poi è rimasto in casa [unclear].
GM: Poi sono rimasto in caso finché è finita perche’ c’erano i miei e abitavamo al pianterreno e ci siamo abbracciati no, e lo spostamento ti faceva andare da una parete all’altra [unclear] poi figura quando sono cadute le due proprio davanti a, dietro, noi eravamo verso la strada, dietro lì al, dove c’è la cucina, figuriamoci
FA: Eh sì..
GM: Ci siamo ritrovati lunghi distesi per terra, immersi dal fumo, facevamo fatica a vederci, talmente era fumo, un odore che non si poteva neanche respirare [unclear] e beh, passato poi cominciato a dire [unclear] a vedere il disastro che è successo, io sono riuscito ad andare fuori ancora, a fare il pezzo di strada a vedere come, ho scusa ho toccato, a vedere c’erano già i soccorsi, a scavare nelle macerie, a scavare, a tirar fuori i cadaveri, tirar fuori gente ferita che si lamentava, siamo andati avanti tutta la notte ecco, tutta la notte.
FA: Lei ha aiutato?
GM: Eh, Un po’ ho aiutato, un po’, ero giovane, avevo quattordici anni oramai, quattodici, quindici anni [unclear] anche insieme a dei miei amici eh, insieme a amici che anche loro fuori andavano, davano una mano. Mi ricordo che lì verso Piazza Meardi adesso c’è una villa nuova che era stata ricostruita perché ci era caduta proprio una bomba, l’aveva distrutta e c’era il mio amico che era arrivato là per primo [unclear] mandato i soccorritori, aveva un due anni piu’ di me a scavare là che si sentivano lamenti lì sotto. E mi è rimasta impresso una cosa: che sono riusciti a tirare fuori quella persona lì e quella persona lì ha messo una mano nella schiena di quel mio amico lì che aveva una camicia bianca, ci è rimasta la mano sporca di sangue, è rimasta. Allora, poi lei lo mette insieme bene, eh?
FA: Prima della pausa stavamo dicendo appunto di quel ragazzo, suo amico che
GM: Ecco, la sera stessa che è stato lì a scavare, scavare in quella, quella via lì, ha tirato fuori una persona viva ma sa, capirà, e gli ha messo una mano qui per tirarlo fuori sulla schiena, gli è rimasta la mano sulla camicia sporca di sangue insomma perché era ferito e compagnia bella e quella è rimasta impressa nella mente perché non sono cose mica da ridere.
FA: Eh certo!
GM: Poi posso raccontarle un fatto mio personale perché un mio carissimo amico, che tra l’altro aveva la mia età, perché noi al mattino si usciva sempre presto? Per andare a cercare da mangiare, ecco, eravamo nel ’44, era inverno, penso ottobre, novembre, era tanta di quella neve, c’era tanta di quella neve per terra però un sole bellissimo e noi, eravamo usciti, abitavamo vicini, siamo usciti nel Corso XXVII Marzo e venivamo su. Sono arrivati i cacciabombardieri, cacciabombardieri che prendevano in filata il Corso XXVII Marzo e sparavano, e sparavano, e poi sparavano fino al ponte della ferrovia che va a Medassino, no?
FA: Sì.
GM: Ecco. Che poi c’era quello della [unclear] sul treno fermo, c’era col, un vagone cisterna pieno di vino,
FA: Ah!
GM: Eh! Comunque quello lì ecco, lì eravamo insieme, eravamo all’altezza, a metà Corso XXVII Marzo, dove c’è il Bar Bon Bon adesso, circa, che allora non c’era e noi eravamo rasente il muro, neve, bel sole limpido, insomma ci sono sti cacciabombardieri, allora, corri i caccia per terra, vicino al muro perché [unclear] e sparavano tutto lungo la strada. Quel mio amico lì si è spaventato. Di fronte c’era una portina aperta del condominio di quel palazzo lì e lui diceva: ‘andiamo di là, che c’è la portina, andiamo dentro, siamo riparati’, no, non muoverti, non vedi, non senti che arrivano, arrivano, arrivano?’ Non mi ha ascoltato, è partito in mezzo alla strada, l’han centrato in pieno, centrato in pieno, è rimasto là, è rimasto secco. Io non mi sono più mosso di lì, coricato per terra, ecco quello lì è il fatto che mi è rimasto più impresso di tutti, ecco.
FA: Certo.
GM: Perché? Perché oramai ci avevi fatto l’abitudine. I bombardieri c’erano tutti i giorni, lì sparavano dappertutto sparavano e noi? Il problema era quello di cercare di schivarli e loro, lì la superavi la paura perche’ avevi talmente tante cose da fare, corri, andare a cercare da mangiare, andare a cercare da scaldarti, andare a cercare, ecco il problema era quello lì.
FA: Ci si era abituati insomma.
GM: Oramai da cinque anni. Cinque anni è stata lunga, e poi quello che ha fatto più impressione è (vedere o vivere?) cinque anni al buio senza una luce fuori, all’ultimo giorno quando si sono riaccesi i lampioni e allora tutto, dopo cinque anni vedere accese le strade illuminate [unclear] e poi una cosa che rimane impressa perché appunto un giovane ci facevi anche l’abitudine eravamo anche un po’ incoscienti quando venivano i bombardieri che bombardavano i ponti, andavamo, scappavamo nei prati lì vicino perché era, e coricati per terra a guardare quando si aprivano quei portelloni, vedere le bombe scendere, ecco quello lì è stato uno spettacolo indimenticabile. Non te lo dimentichi più perché vedere sti portelli, perché erano abbastanza bassi e tutte ste bombe che cadevano, che cadevano ecco, allora lì [laughs].
FA: Sì.
GM: Ecco, sono impressioni che ti sono rimaste, ecco [unclear].
FA: Certo.
GM: Ecco. Adesso se ha qualche domanda, io non,
FA: Sì, certo.
GM: Non saprei più cosa dirle.
FA: Lei in casa avevate un rifugio antiaereo?
GM: No, le cantine.
FA: Le cantine.
GM: Le cantine. Cantine rimesse un po’ in ordine, no, dal comune, anzi, avevano, le cantine non erano più singole, avevano buttato giù le pareti e avevano fatto un corridoio lungo. Un corridoio lungo, poi l’hanno verniciato di bianco, compagnia bella, e quando suonava l’allarme, tutta la gente scendeva ma era diventato un corridoio lungo, sarà stato lungo come il palazzo ecco. Prima, anziché tante piccole cantine, un corridoio lungo,
FA: E certo.
GM: E diventava un, era diventato un rifugio era diventato, ecco.
FA: Per tutto il palazzo.
GM: Per tutto il palazzo.
FA: Certo. Si ricorda se c’era qualche rifugio pubblico, magari in centro?
GM: Rifugio pubblico, dunque, c’erano del, mi ricordo che, nei prati, e nei dintorni e in Piazza Meardi, sia dalla parte di qui che dalla parte di là della caserma, avevano scavato delle trincee a zig zag, delle trincee a zig zag dove la gente si rifugiava dentro, abbastanza profonde. Ti potevi rifugiare li dentro perché non erano diritte, che potevano essere prese in filata ma a zig zag che quanto meno ti riparava dalle schegge o
FA: Certo.
GM: Ecco, quelle me le ricordo bene. E ne avevano costruite abbastanza, in periferia ce ne erano tante, in periferia [unclear] e la gente scappava e si infilava lì dentro. Perché poi sai, erano tutte case vecchie, la cantina teneva per varie cantine, li mettevi una bomba sopra e allora tanta gente preferiva e come sentivano gli aeroplani, partivano o in bicicletta o a piedi e andare fuori,
FA: Andare fuori,
GM: Un po’ fuori che non era grosso così, c’erano i campi, i prati ecco, e si andava lì e si
FA: E si scappava [unclear]
GM: E si scappava e si stava fuori finché si poteva ecco.
FA: Ho capito. Una domanda un po’, diciamo un po’ personale. Secondo lei, e secondo quello che vedeva nella popolazione, insomma,
GM: Sì, sì, sì.
FA: Che sentimenti provavate nei confronti di chi vi bombardava?
GM: Mah, eh, dunque guardi [pauses] noi avevamo, il sentimento più brutto ce l’avevamo coi nostri governanti, di quell’epoca, che ci avevano portato in quella situazione lì. Che tu avevi fame, non c’era da mangiare, rischiavi la pelle tutti i giorni e il sentimento maggiore di rivalsa era quello. Tu pensavi che quelli facevano i loro mestieri. Però sul bombardamento sulla città pensavamo fossero dei criminali, eh, perché non era il caso, ecco, non era il caso. Se loro ti dicevano, pensavano o la propaganda ti diceva che si erano sbagliati, diceva, vabbe, questi non sono errori che si possono fare, ma bombardare proprio indiscriminatamente una città che faceva trenta, trentacinquemila abitanti, non c’era niente, non c’era, è stato un bombardamento terroristico che anche la gente si era abbastanza risentita.
FA: Risentita.
GM: Era abbastanza. Poi però ha prevalso il sentimento che eravamo a fine ’44, ancora qualche mese e poi la guerra era, finiva, noi sapevamo la notizia già dai partigiani e compagnia bella, che ah beh allora, vengano, se dobbiamo finirla vengano ancora anche, lo facciano ancora per un’altra volta che almeno basta.
FA: Sì.
GM: I liberatori, li chiamavamo i liberatori.
FA: Sì insomma, alla fine, diciamo, c’era più la voglia di,
GM: Bravo.
FA: Di essere liberati, che finisse la guerra
GM: Bravo, ecco, di farla finita, di farla finita perché oramai. Poi la propaganda sa, Radio Londra si sentiva tutto, Radio Londra era un appuntamento fisso, e sentivi insomma, ti raccontavano le cose, [unclear] bene o male, speriamo che arrivino in fretta, speriamo e difatti insomma poi cominciato i movimenti partigiani e compagnia bella. E allora anche per i fascisti, per i tedeschi non è che siano state rose e fiori, insomma.
FA: Era molto attiva qua su Voghera la Resistenza?
GM: [unclear] Tutto qui Oltrepò, era, ce n’era veramente perché, è stato, l’Oltrepò Pavese è stato il primo ad avere le bande partigiane, sono state nel ’43, e poi sai volevano, li conoscevi quei ragazzi che c’era la leva obbligatoria, la leva obbligatoria del maresciallo Graziani, da tredici anni a trentasette anni, eh. Chi non si presentava veniva fucilato. Sai, allora, nascosti sempre nascosti.
FA: Quindi o si era, o ci si presentava oppure si [unclear] andava in clandestinità
GM: Eh, non ti presentavi, è quello. La maggior parte non si erano presentati, tanti amici che avevano qualche anno in più, sono scappati subito su verso le montagne e poi sono stati su fino alla fine della guerra,
FA: Guerra.
GM: Che sono arrivati i soldati, sono arrivati gli americani, gli inglesi. I primi ad arrivare a Voghera mi sembra sono stati i brasiliani, brasiliani, sono stati i brasiliani, sono stati, dico bene?
FA: Sì.
GM: [unclear] Questo qui, è [unclear] stato un mio carissimo amico, aspetta, [unclear] dove è andato a finire che le vostre ricerche, sarà qui, eccolo qui, questo qui è il soldato brasiliano, uno dei primi che è arrivato a Voghera, questo qui. Mi ha dato l’indirizzo, mi ha persino scritto l’indirizzo dove abitava in Brasile, guardi. Ivan, Ivan. Mi portava a spasso poi con la jeep. E ci dava le sigarette da mangiare. Ci davano da mangiare,
FA: Eh, sì.
GM: Parlamoci chiaro, ci davano da mangiare.
FA: Quindi, poi c’e’ stato insomma un rapporto di, di amicizia.
GM: Perché, perché loro, sì, perché loro avevano i magazzini che noi siamo rimasti impressionati perché e guardavamo lì, figuriamoci. Vedere mangiare da loro, fare dei pentoloni di cioccolata che noi la cioccolata non avevamo mai sentito, figuriamoci, era [unclear] per quello che avanzavano, cioè ne distribuivano che ne avevano nei pentoloni, ne facevano di più apposta, c’eravamo noi in fila coi pentoloni a ritirare e portare a casa, ecco.
FA: Eh certo.
GM: Questo. Ecco questo è un particolare che [unclear] nella politica e nella politica ne abbiamo avuti perché i miei erano contrari, insomma io avevo un zio, beh un fratello di mia mamma, che era nel Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale a Tortona, perché mia mamma era [unclear] di Tortona, lei [unclear], e allora, le notizie le sapevamo tutte le notizie dei movimenti partigiani e compagnia bella.
FA: Certo.
GM: E poi, io sono stato, guardi questa, guardi bene questa cartolina e le date.
FA: 39.
GM: Ultimo avviso, perché si doveva essere tutti in divisa e io avevo finito, io, se non mi presentavo, perché non c’andavo mai, e mi han mandato l’ultimo avviso e se non mi presentavo non potevo più iscrivermi a scuola.
FA: A scuola.
GM: Non potevo più andare a scuola, capisce?
FA: Quindi lei non partecipava, diciamo, alle attivita’ dell’ [unclear]
GM: Eh no, perché mio padre era socialista quindi mio zio che era, figuriamoci, eravamo un pò, poi però abbiamo un vicino di casa che era un maggiore della milizia, un maggiore della milizia come vicino di casa che ci conosceva e allora sa, lo sapeva che non la pensavamo come lui, ma insomma
FA: Però non.
GM: No, no, no, ecco.
FA: E i bombardamenti dei ponti avvenivano di giorno?
GM: Di giorno, tutti di giorno. Tranne di notte che c’era il famoso Pippo. Pippo, quello tutte le notti era una cambiale, c’era sempre, fino al 25 aprile, l’ultimo giorno ha sganciato in Via San Francesco d’Assisi, che aveva visto qualcosa, aveva visto, degli spezzoni, e ha ammazzato una persona il 25 aprile proprio. C’era rimasta una persona che era [unclear]. Quasi tutte le sere girava tutta la notte. Se vedeva una luce, bombardava. E non c’era
FA: Quindi anche lui era ormai una presenza abituale.
GM: Quasi quasi era, oramai era della famiglia, [laughs] perché c’era sempre, c’era. Ecco, ecco se ha altre cose che, io non saprei cosa dire dell’altro adesso, perché son tanti gli aerei,
FA: Eh beh, certo.
GM: cose che la sera, quando si dove andare a, non so, a cercare con i ragazzi, amici, no, con dei carrettini, rischiando il coprifuoco, rischiando, perché c’era il coprifuoco, non si poteva andare. Io avevo uno zio che faceva il ferroviere e abitavamo vicino alla ferrovia no, [unclear] la ferrovia dietro, e lui guidava, faceva il macchinista e guidava sempre il treno Voghera-Genova coi tedeschi, ci fascisti e avevano i vagoni dove loro requisivano tutto, grano requisivano e quando era di servizio lui se lo diceva, lui, si, noi ci preparavamo vicino la scarpata della ferrovia rischiando la pelle perché e lui apriva un vagone, ci buttava giù un sacco, due sacchi di grano, quello che c’era sopra insomma e allora noi piano piano si raccoglieva, si portava a casa poi si divideva fra le famiglie,
FA: Certo.
GM: Se era grano poi ci mettevamo a pestare e farci la farina per farci il pane ecco queste così ma rischiavi la pelle oppure andare al di là, sotto il passaggio al di là della ferrovia a far legna da bruciare per scaldarti.
FA: Eh certo.
GM: E allora tutte le piante che c’erano, [laughs] tutte le notti ne partivano qualcuno. Queste sono, ecco, queste cose qui e tutto era per mangiare perché altrimenti [unclear] andare nei campi dove raccoglievano le patate, no, dopo quelle raccolte andare là, ne lasciavano sempre qualcuna indietro, eh.
FA: Eh certo.
GM: O spigolare come dicevano, no.
FA: Il granoturco.
GM: Il grano, il granoturco. Tutto quello che si trovava, si portava a casa.
FA: Sì, insomma, era
GM: Perché cinque anni sembrano pochi ma sono lunghi da passare. Ai primi, uno, due anni, poi c’avevi le tessere coi bollini, ragazzi. Una volta la settimana ti dicevano, per andare con il bollino numero, puoi ritirare un po’ di zucchero, un’altra settimana un po’ di sale, un’altra [unclear]
FA: Quello che c’era
GM: Quello che c’era insomma. Però è passato e siamo qui ancora adesso.
FA: Quindi insomma una vita così, un po’, con le bombe a fare da contorno ecco.
GM: Ma, contorno bombe e spaventi tanti.
FA: Eh certo.
GM: Perché spaventi tanti perché parliamoci chiaro, non solo le bombe, i rastrellamenti, i tedeschi, i tempi di guerra si sa come sono. Non sai mai come,
FA: Cosa succede.
GM: Tu vai fuori la mattina non sai mai se vai a casa la sera, non sai mai eh, perché lì i rastrellamenti o compagnia bella, o i bombardamenti perché come ripeto, i caccia c’erano tutti i giorni. I cacciabombadieri anche loro c’erano tutti i giorni. I bombardieri grossi no, quelli tre, quattro, dieci volte tranne, quella lì poi è stato il 23 agosto ma le altre volte andavano sui ponti e basta, andavano sui ponti e se ne andavano. E allora c’avevi quasi fatto l’abitudine, c’hai fatto l’abitudine.
FA: E il ponte, sono riusciti a buttarlo giù?
GM: Sì, sì, buttavano sempre giù, c’era, li rimettevano su di fortuna, li ribombardavano ma lì era ma tante volte ecco. Li han sempre buttati. Solo quei tre ponti che c’era la linea, Milano-Genova e Milano, Voghera-Genova, no, Voghera-Milano e Voghera-Piacenza, sono due linee diverse e dopo, poi c’era il ponte della linea Voghera-Varzi e poi il ponte stradale. E quel ponte lì
FA: Sempre.
GM: Un giorno sì, un giorno no. Era, ecco lì, Voghera bombardavano sempre solo quello. Tranne quella volta lì. Oppure i cacciabombardieri, vabbe’ che loro vedevano un carretto, sparavano, scendevano, mitragliavano, se ne andavano, ecco.
FA: Ho capito.
GM: Ecco, la guerra, per noi qui a Voghera, è stata quella, logico, perché se poi andiamo nella Resistenza e compagnia bella ne abbiamo conosciuti tanti compresi (?) tanti amici che purtroppo non ci sono più. Ma insomma lì è un altro discorso, lì andiamo nella politica, allora lasciamo stare la politica, lasciamo stare. Va bene?
FA: Certo. Va bene. Grazie mille, la ringraziamo molto per questa intervista, per la sua testimonianza.
GM: Ci mancherebbe altro, guarda io, li ho detto, di balle non ne ho raccontate, le ho detto, se poi lei legge questo qui che avevo detto , lì [unclear] a Salerno, sono più o meno le stesse cose che le ho detto, ma sono, sono cose che non ti vanno più via dalla mente, ti segnano, non ti vanno più via dalla mente. Però arrivi adesso, ne parli con amici molto più giovani e non, cioè non si rendono conto di
FA: Della gravità
GM: Del, dei momenti che hai passato così, diciamo, beh, che uno che si alza al mattino, e noi eravamo una famiglia, due, padre, madre e quattro fratelli, due sorelle e due fratelli, poi mio fratello era nei partigiani perché lui era più vecchio di me. Primo pensiero, ragazzi, per andare a cercare per mangiare a mezzogiorno, eh. Passare cinque anni così non è facile, eh.
FA: Eh no.
GM: E allora sta idea(?), sono esperienze che ti formano, ti formano la vita.
FA: Certo. Va bene, grazie mille.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with a survivor of the Voghera bombings (informant B)
Description
An account of the resource
The informant recollects his wartime memories in Voghera. Emphasises how bombings, strafing, and Pippo flying at night became part of everyday life and how the population tried to cope. Gives a vivid and detailed account of the August 1944 bombing, which was labelled “terrorist” by many. Narrates how he barely managed to survive it and recollects the unreal contrast between the sunny weather and widespread devastation. Mentions various episodes: helping extricating dead and wounded people from the rubble; draft dodgers; inter-connected cellars and dug-out trenches used as makeshift shelters. Stresses the feeling of resentment and anger harboured towards the dictatorship; enduring the bombings while waiting for the end of the war and the arrival of the Allies. Remembers the first time the street lights were turned on after five years of wartime blackout. Tells of his uncle, a railwayman, pilfering grain. Mentions Brasilian soldiers handing out chocolate at end of the war.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-08-29
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:29:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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An01183
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Voghera
Temporal Coverage
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1944-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/445/7901/AChiesaC170210.2.mp3
e65b06014ee7ba5dbd6e6aee948769cf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Chiesa, Celestino
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Celestino Chiesa who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Chiesa, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare Celestino Chiesa. Siamo a Pavia, è il 10 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Celestino per aver permesso questa intervista. È inoltre presente la moglie. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Celestino, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza a Pavia in quegli anni?
CC: A Pavia sono arrivato nel ’38, prima sono nato in collina e poi purtroppo è morta la mamma, eravamo quattro fratellini piccoli, è venuta una zia, è stata là un po’ poi ci ha portato a Pavia tutti assieme. Poi nel ’39 purtroppo il primo fratello è annegato in Ticino, andato a prendere il bagno, è andato sotto, l’han trovato quattro giorni dopo in Po. E l’hanno, è stato fatto il funerale, e io m’han messo negli Artigianelli. Ero con mio fratello, mio fratello messo nei Colombini diciamo perché non lo so perché non, c’hann divisi, io sono stato entrato nel ’39. Il ’39 ho incominciato a fare la vita, in Istituto c’era tutto, c’erano le officine, c’era lo studio, c’era il divertimento, le gite, tutto! Si viveva indipendentemente dal mondo. Il mondo era tutto lì. Certo, c’era la fame perché era incominciata la guerra, mangiare non ce n’era, dar da mangiare a cento bambini una cosa difficilissima. Eh, riuscivano ma facendo un po’ di fatica si mangiava poco, pazienza. Abbiamo sopportato per cinque anni tutta la guerra. Sono uscito nel ’45, al 28 aprile compivo i diciotto anni, a diciotto anni si usciva dall’Istituto. L’esperienza è stata per me positiva, veramente perché ho imparato il mestiere metalmeccanico, fresatore ma un po’ di tutto, fresatore, tornitore, specificamente il fresatore. Ho lavorato alla Necchi, ho lavorato in altre officine. Sempre con, diciamo, molto ben gradito, mi venivano a cercare a casa perché valevamo molto. Ci dicevano: ‘Ma non ha altri artigianelli da mandare qui a lavorare? Perché sono tutti bravi ragazzi prima e poi bravi operai’. E io ho portato un ragazzo che ha fatto una bella figura perché era bravissimo, il Bonini, e lui, il Carluccio lo conosci, e lì, io sono diventato anche il capo officina lì, lì alla BCD poi ho smesso perché non si riusciva a fare carriera, eravamo una famiglia un po’ pesante. E allora abbiamo preso un bar con la moglie, abbiamo gestito il Bar Castello di Pavia, in Piazza Emanuele Filiberto. Eh ci siamo stati sette anni mi pare. Poi, causa malattia tutti e due, abbiamo smesso. Insomma io sono andato in pensione, ormai avevo raggiunto l’età delle pensioni perché ho lavorato ventitre anni nell’industria, ho fatto più di vent’anni nei bar e così, e sono arrivato circa a quarantaquattro anni di lavoro consecutivo, cambiando spesso, fatto un’officina per mio conto, una piccola officina che si lavorava ma non sono riuscito a sfondare e allora sono andato ancora a lavorare ma non facevo fatica a trovare lavoro. Mai. E sono riuscito, non dico a far carriera però stavo bene. Comunque col bar abbiamo continuato l’attività e siamo arrivati alla fine che io sono andato in pensione e la vita, la mia vita consiste un pochino. Da giovane ho giocato tanti anni a pallacanestro, a basket tanti anni e con risultati molto, sono andato anche nel Pavia di serie A. Ho fatto una partita sola però ho avuto la soddisfazione di provare la serie A e poi abbiamo fatto il Palio dell’Oca e sono riuscito come capo del rione Centro a vincere due volte il palio, è una soddisfazione anche quella, e poi la vita ha continuato. Adesso dopo finita la pensione sono andato in un centro anziani e ho fatto, man messo segretario, e siamo andati avanti per circa vent’anni poi purtroppo l’età avanza, adesso sto per compiere i novant’anni. Ho smesso anche a quello lì ah, beh! Adesso mi riposo.
FA: Giusto così.
CC: Non so. Se serve qualcos’altro non lo so.
FA: No, se vuole, può raccontarci gli anni di guerra, durante il periodo degli Artigianelli.
CC: Sì, gli anni di guerra nel ’44 più che altro perché prima no, prima abbiamo, non c’era né bombardamenti, c’erano gli aerei ma non è che bombardavano Pavia. Milano sì, stando a scuola si sentiva, o dicevano, Milano hanno bombardato completamente dal ’43 poi è venuto l’8 settembre, è finito, è caduto il fascismo, e allora cadendo il fascismo hanno incominciato gli aerei a bombardare. Bombardavano tutti i ponti, tutte le strade principali, tutti i movimenti che vedevano, venivano giù, mitragliavano. Io ho preso quelle mitragliate lì. Ero, stavamo andando a vedere una partita di calcio, Pavia-Novara. Nel Novara giocava Piola, il grande Piola, e siamo andati volentieri ma siamo arrivati a Porta Milano ma abbiamo visto due aerei che arrivavano da circa Milano, zona diciamo Nord, e arrivare verso Pavia, a allora se bombardano, bombardano lo scalo merci perché ci sono dentro i treni tedeschi e difatti hanno lanciato due bombe nello scalo merci. E noi abbiamo visto gli aerei, siamo fuggiti un po’ da tutte le parti, un centinaio di bambini, di ragazzi, si figuri. Siamo andati un po’ da tutte le parti. Io che avevo un terrore degli areoplani, veramente avevo una paura matta, son corso verso il Naviglio, verso, da Porta Milano dove c’era il consorzio allora verso il Naviglio ma sono arrivati prima loro. Mi sono trovato per terra, la mitragliata m’ha preso a circa un metro ma s’è persa dal tetto, preso uno spavento che non finiva più, poi mi è passato, pazienza. Siamo andati avanti ma il terrore degli aereoplani l’ho sempre avuto. Non ho mai volato neanche adesso.
FS: Non hai ancora imparato a andare.
CC: È stato tremendo.
FA: Le è rimasto impresso.
CC: [laughs] Eh, i bombardamenti lì a Pavia, il ponte per una settimana per distruggere il ponte coperto non riuscivano a centrarlo. Colpivano da una parte o dall’altra, han preso una parte della città, la parte del borgo, dopo il ponte, han distrutto, ci sono stati parecchi morti, però il ponte non riuscivano a colpirlo o lo colpivano, frantumi, diciamo, pezzo di qui, pezzo di là, fin quando sono riusciti poi dopo una settimana sempre a mezzogiorno. Stavamo andando a mangiare quel poco che c’era, bombardamento, allora in cantina, come rifugio, andavamo in cantina così, era rifugio antiaereo, pensi che in qui, nel rifugio c’era tutta la segatura perché scaldava segatura quelle stufe grosse. Si metteva la segatura, riempiva e si scaldava con quello lì, e c’era tutta la segatura in cantina, noi eravamo sopra la segatura ma se s’incendia bruciavamo tutti, chi ci pensava? Beh comunque vada, è passata, passata e i bombardamenti, non, sì, si sentivano da lontano perché dal ponte a noi, gli Artigianelli c’era una distanza che, non, qualche scheggia è volata fino in cortile, le bombe erano talmente forti, eh. C’era un, uno, un nostro fratello lì, Borghesi, che stava scopando il cortile erano tutte delle schegge ma non l’han preso lui, no, è rimasto sano. È durata per otto giorni, una settimana intera, tutti bombardamenti, sempre a mezzogiorno e ci siamo salvati diciamo.
FS: [unclear] che venivano gli inglesi da noi a Pavia, chi erano? Gli aerei, gli aerei erano americani?
CC: Americani, americani.
FS: Americani.
CC: Americani, non lo so se, comunque se, mi dicevano che erano americani. A Pavia poi di notte c’era il Pippo, cosiddetto Pippo che lanciava giù una bomba dove c’erano le luci. ‘Spegnete tutte le luci!’ urlavano, perché se vedevano una luce lanciavano giù le bombe, le bombette piccole. Tant’è vero che mia zia che abitava in Piazza Petrarca ha preso quella bomba proprio la facciata del, adesso c’è il cosiddetto, l’Annunziata, la sala dell’Annunziata e ha preso una facciata, hanno mostrato il buco. Mia zia che abitava lì di fronte in Piazza Petrarca dallo scoppio è caduta dal letto [laughs]. Si è spaventata a morte anche lei, zia carissima perché era tanto brava quando avevo fame, andavo a trovare qualcosa da lei, c’era poco da mangiare. Io per fortuna ero ben voluto e alle volte mi mandavano col furgoncino a portare i panni a lavare in un posto lì vicino, San Paolo perché c’è il, come si chiama quel fiume lì, la Vernavola e lì c’era uno, no, a San Paolo che faceva da lavanderia, lavava tutti i panni e io lo portavo col furgoncino però avevo qualche soldino, fermavo tutti i panettieri e cercavo da mangiare. La fame era troppa. Ho pianto due o tre volte per la fame, senza farmi vedere, ma la fame era troppa. In tempo di guerra, la tessera su tutto, si staccava il tagliandino per andare a fare la spesa, la tessera con tutti i bollini. Tutto il mese, bollino e dopo, da mangiare c’era pochissimo. Poi lì fuori negli Artigianelli abbiamo, ho, mettevo, trovano subito il lavoro loro, man trovato in posto, ho incominciato ad andare a lavorare, e per divertirci, quel che girava non c’era niente, allora cosa ho fatto? Abbiamo fatto una compagnia del teatro, messo in piedi una compagnia, andavamo in giro negli oratori, nelle parrocchie a fare le recite e ho conosciuto mia moglie. Venuto lì, conoscete le, eravamo là [unclear] a far la e passano loro in tre, tre ragazze, e dico, ma guardano ‘Ma perché non entrate? ‘Non abbiamo i soldi per entrare’, perché facevamo pagare il biglietto. Beh, venite dentro, ci sono ancora tre posti, ve li offro io. E sono entrati. Era bello, recitavamo bene e lei lì da cosa nasce cosa, ci siamo incontrati e dopo sessantasei anni sono ancora qui, assieme alla moglie [laughs]. Insomma, se posso.
FA: No, una domanda, quando venivano, ha detto che venivano?
CC: I bombardamenti.
FA: Verso mezzogiorno ha detto
CC: Verso mezzogiorno.
FA: Ma suonava la sirena?
CC: Sì, suonava, la sirena suonava sempre quando c’erano gli aerei in giro. Poi facevano il primo segnale come per avvertire che stavano arrivando gli aerei poi alla fine un altro colpo di sirena per annunciare che non c’era più pericolo, andavano via. Suonava sempre la sirena, per l’allarme.
FA: Si, si.
CC: Anche lì naturalmente prima di venire, un’oretta prima circa, suonava l’allarme. C’era la sirena che c’è lì in piazza, dove c’è la, cos’è il palazzo del governo, cosiddetto qui a Pavia, lì c’era la sirena, su in alto e suonava forte, si sentiva tutta Pavia.
FA: A Palazzo Mezzabarba?
FS: No.
CC: No.
FS: Piazza Italia.
CC: Lì, dove c’è
FS: Piazza Italia.
CC: Piazza Italia.
FA: Ah, la provincia.
CC: Lì c’è quel palazzone lì.
FA: Ah. Ho capito.
CC: Ecco, là sopra c’era la sirena. Suonava fortissimo. Si sentiva in tutta la città.
FA: Ah, per tutta la città.
CC: Sì, sì.
FS: Anche io a quindici chilometri sentivo.
CC: E allora quando stavano arrivando suonava per avvertire che andate in rifugio non lo so, mettetevi in salvo perchè stanno arrivando. Non si sa se bombardano o no, nessuno lo sa, cosa fanno quelli lì, che arrivano gli aerei? Eh beh, lì, suonava sempre la sirena, anche quando sono venuti per il ponte. Avvertivano sempre. Poi bombardavano, disastro ma. Poi alla fine
FS: Hanno bombardato.
CC: Ma durava una mezz’ora, circa una mezz’ora di bombardamenti. Poi dopo, alla fine suonavano le sirene per dire che è tutto finito, potete, potete uscire, mettervi [unclear]
FS: Anche la scuola qui hanno bombardato.
CC: Sì, questa qui la Pascoli.
FS: Coi bambini.
CC: Sono, ma non, no, lì c’era un aereo che stava precipitando perché era in avaria e aveva tutte le bombe su. Per scaricarsi, è venuto, cercava di andar fuori città.
FS: In mezzo alla campagna.
CC: Non in mezzo, è arrivato qui vicino alle scuole ha lanciato giù le bombe. Le scuole qui del Pascoli, Via Colesino, siamo noi, han distrutto metà scuola, però non c’erano i bambini erano appena usciti. Per fortuna non c’è stato
FS: Però le case popolari,
CC: C’erano le case popolari sono state settantotto morti mi pare, lì nelle case popolari perché ha scaricato le bombe quasi, poi è precipitato m’han detto verso Calebona. Un’altra volta c’era abbiamo visto, eravamo in cortile, abbiamo visto un aereo che arrivava da est e volava, aveva una fiammella e girava, man mano che andava la fiammella diventava grande. È arrivato su, verso sud, verso Genova e si sono visti tutti i paracaduti, insomma si sono buttati tutti poi l’aereo è scoppiato, abbiamo visto da lontano, scoppiati i paracaduti. Si sono, sono scesi e tutti gli aviatori lì
FS: è sempre [unclear]
CC: Gli aerei, un aereo americano e si sono persi per i campi, li hanno aiutati a salvarsi, a nascondersi, e l’aereo è precipitato lì. Mi ricordo bene perché io stavo per correre già in rifugio perché avevo una paura, e allora stavo per correre in rifugio quando ho visto quella scena lì, mi sono fermato a guardare anch’io, tutti gli ombrellini, i paracaduti che [unclear], scendevano. Poi dopo un momento è scoppiato l’aereo, andato in frantumi, si capisce che era, stava incendiandosi, si sono buttati, si sono salvati, uno solo che è morto perché non aveva il paracadute, è precipitato a San Martino, Martino Siccomario, è morto quello lì. Gli altri si sono salvati perché li hanno aiutati tutti i contadini lì, cercato di metterli in salvo, di farli andare anche nell’Oltrepò, sono riusciti a salvarli. Non ne hanno preso uno.
FA: Lei è andato a vedere poi dove è caduto?
CC: Siamo andati a vedere tutti i resti, abbiamo trovato tante di quelle pallottole, rotoli di pallottole, pezzi di aereo, uno ha trovato una cuffia addirittura da mettere su. E s’è frantumato, è andato tutto a pezzi. E siamo andati, quello era di giovedì, la domenica siamo andati a fare la passeggiata, abbiamo visto tutto il disastro che c’era. L’è una roba da far paura, cose che succedono purtroppo.
FA: Dove siete andati a fare questa passeggiata? Dov’è che avete visto?
CC: A San Martino.
FA: Ah, di là.
CC: Oltre San Martino verso il Po. Siamo andati, perché l’aereo è caduto quasi vicino al Po, più avanti di San Martino, ma dalla parte interna però non sulla strada.
FA: Ho capito.
CC: E abbiamo trovato tanti resti. Uomini non ce n’erano perché si sono salvati, li hanno fatti fuggire tutti, cercato di salvarli. Allora c’era già la psicosi degli alleati, così i fascisti sono corsi ma non hanno trovato, non hanno fatto in tempo a trovare nessuno. È stato un attimo.
FA: E invece ha visto in che condizioni diciamo era il Borgo Ticino?
CC: Eh, Borgo Ticino, non solo, prima qui a Calcinara han preso perché bombardando il ponte han preso una parte di Calcinara prima, una parte di Porta Nuova, lì c’era la batteria di colombi (?) sul Naviglio l’han distrutto e perché non riuscivano a colpire bene. Dicono che il Ticino fa un curva venendo in città dalla, dalla.
FS: Ponte dell’Impero.
CC: Sì, più ancora, Ponte della Ferrovia. Il Ponte della Ferrovia in un primo bombardamento l’hanno distrutto in un attimo, subito in pieno, sono rimasti i piloni e basta. Poi, invece questo qui
FS: Ponte Vecchio.
CC: Il Ponte del, cosiddetto dell’Impero, perché l’han fatto far su Mussolini, la prima arcata verso il borgo l’hanno centrato in pieno, è caduta e basta. Ponte interrotto, non venivano più. Però venivano col Ponte Coperto, non riuscivano a buttarlo giù. Dopo la settimana finalmente [unclear] a continuare a bombardare, han preso il Borgo anche lì, la parte del borgo dopo il ponte, han distrutto anche lì, ci sono stati morti anche lì. Un giorno sono andati anche più avanti del Borgo Ticino, verso
FS: Verso il Po.
CC: Canarazzo (?), no prima, e lì un aereo ha lanciato giù una bomba perché lì c’erano tutta la gente andava a nascondersi sotto un tunnel di un ponte. La bomba ha proprio centrato quel tunnel lì e c’erano dentro un quaranta, cinquanta persone, tutte frantumate, oltre tutto c’era dentro un professore che veniva a insegnare nella nostra scuola degli Artigianelli, noi abbiamo fatto le medie agli Artigianelli poi abbiamo dato l’esame fuori come privatisti, io ho fatto quello, la terza media l’ho fatta dando fuori i [unclear], lì abbiamo fatto l’esame sono passato, ho preso la terza media. Altro non ho potuto andare avanti perché ci si fermava alla terza media, era fin troppo a quei tempi là, nel ’50, ’45.
FS: ’45.
CC: Nel ’43, nel ’42 ho il diploma di terza media, nel ’42.
FA: Ho capito. Si ricorda il suono della sirena?
CC: Il?
FA: Il suono della sirena.
CC: Fortissimo, non saprei come dirla, proprio come un urlo.
FS: Una tromba prolungata.
CC: Sembrava un urlo, [mimics the sound of the siren] che calava, proprio sembrava una cosa che calava, ma fortissimo e durava.
FS: Mi veniva la pelle d’oca.
CC: Trenta metri, trenta secondi il preallarme, poi
FS: L’allarme di più.
CC: L’allarme, e poi alla fine quando avevano finito risuonava ancora per dare il segnale che era tutto finito. Ricordo perfettamente quel, ma un rumore che assordava le orecchie perché faceva [mimics the sound of the siren]! Ma fortissimo.
FA: Molto fastidioso insomma.
CC: Fastidioso, molto. Però avvertivano di mettersi al riparo. Possibilmente. Il riparo, a Pavia rifugi non ce n’erano, le cantine, andavi in cantina era il rifugio. Mettevano dei pali per rinforzare un pochino ma se colpiva la bomba andava giù tutto [laughs].
FS: Però non ha fatto tanti danni a
CC: Eh no, Calcinara, ha distrutto Calcinara e ce n’erano di gente lì. Proprio completamente rasa. Poi il Borgo Ticino lo stesso dopo il Ponte ha distrutto completamente un bel po’
FS: Il Carducci
CC: Fino a metà borgo
FS: Nino, racconta del Carducci, che c’erano tutti i soldati esteri.
CC: Ah? No, ah sì, ah sì perché noi essendo in Istituto eravamo in collegio, si viveva solo lì, la nostra vita era dentro lì sempre. Ci si alzava presto, si andava in chiesa a dire, sentire la messa, poi s’incominciava, si andava a fare colazione, poi si andava subito in officina a lavorare, subito. Poi, fino a mezzogiorno, si mangiava poi si andava ancora al lavoro, si faceva la ricreazione un’oretta poi si andava al lavoro. Fino alle quattro, alle quattro si andava sopra e a studiare c’era la scuola, prima un po’ di studio poi venivano i professori da fuori a insegnare per fare la terza media e arrivammo lì. Lì in Istituto c’era la Via Fratelli Cremona che confina con la scuola Carducci e a un certo punto, nel ’44, circa, hanno messo dentro, i tedeschi hanno messo dentro i mongoli, prigionieri russi, chi lo sa da dove venivano, prigionieri che hanno fatto in Russia. Li hanno messi lì e hanno messo tutto il filo spinato in mezzo alla via, tutta la via, tutto intorno al Carducci, per non farli fuggire. Poi li mandavano su, a fare i rastrellamenti nelle colline.
FS: Nelle colline.
CC: Quella gente lì. Gente di poca fede perché erano, hanno lottato per il nazismo ma non erano se andavano indietro poi li fucilavano, li fucilavano tutti. [Eh, se li. Noi eravamo dentro, loro avevano le pagnotte e noi eravamo là, ‘Ma dammi una pagnotta, abbiamo fame!’. Cercavano di tirargli ma non si poteva [laughs].
FS: Perché loro avevano.
CC: Perché noi abbiamo tutti i finestroni, abbiamo tutti i finestroni che davano sulla Via Fratelli Carboni, stando su in alto, la scuola diciamo, scuola e dormitori. e vedere quella gente lì con le pagnotte, avevamo fame, facevamo i segni ma per noi era gente brava, non era cattiva. Mongoli non lo so, dicevano mongoli.
FA: Ma quindi li avete visti proprio bene loro, in faccia?
CC: Sì, sì, sì, eh, si parlava, cioè si cercava di dire qualcosa, non si capiva niente però.
FA: Erano scuri o erano, come carnagione?
CC: No, giallastri.
FA: Olivastri.
FS: Avevano tutti
CC: Olivastri.
FS: Avevano tutti una coda.
CC: No, no.
FS: No?
CC: Quelli no, quelli erano, quelli che erano giù a, con i mitraglieri per difendersi dagli aerei ma mai ciapà un aereoplano.
FA: Si ricorda dove erano le, queste difese antiaeree?
CC: Le, giù al Ticino, appena giù dal ponte c’erano le postazioni delle mitragliere. Per gli aerei, ma non, ma.
FA: E chi c’era dentro, italiani o tedeschi?
CC: No, no, no, non tedeschi, mandavano indiani più che altro.
FS: Ecco.
CC: Cioè gente che era con i tedeschi. Ma perché erano loro che prima siamo stati lì fino alla fine della guerra perché nel ’45 quando è finita la guerra, ’45 era 25 aprile. Sono arrivati i partigiani a Pavia con diversi prigionieri tra i quali un nostro amico che era negli Artigianelli, è scappato, è andato nelle fiamme bianche, che chiamavano, sono paramilitari tedeschi, ragazzi, è andato su a fare i rastrellamenti. Poi l’han preso alla fine della guerra, l’han fucilato anche lui. Un certo Scolari, mi ricordo il nome. Un altro [unclear] l’hanno messo in castello prigioniero poi, era di Voghera, poi l’hanno mandato a casa sua. Non c’han fatto niente ma questo qui l’han preso a Stradella, vicino al cimitero li han messi là, sette, otto partigiani, li hanno fucilati. E c’era dentro quel nostro amico. Aveva diciassette, sedici, diciassette anni, poverino, mi ricordo, ricordo sempre, Scolari si chiamava.
FA: Scolari.
CC: [sighs] purtroppo.
FS: No, la guerra, speriamo che non avvenga più. Tremendo.
CC: Eh, la guerra, la guerra, è tremenda la guerra. [unclear] è venuta la liberazione, la festa. Tutti gli aerei [unclear], tutti gli aerei, sopra il 25 aprile quando hanno arrestato Mussolini, l’hanno ammazzato proprio il giorno che io compio gli anni. Il 28 aprile l’hanno fucilato a Dongo. Poi l’hanno portato a Milano, l’hanno appeso. Figura orrenda, da non dire perché è stata una bestialità quella, per mio conto. Non posso vedere quelle cose da nessuna parte.
FA: Certo.
CC: Io sono per il quieto vivere, per andar d’accordo con tutti, per avere l’armonia con tutti. Non l’odio, cosa vuol dire l’odio? Non vuol dire niente l’odio, assolutamente no. Vivere in pace con tutti. Come adesso, quello che succede. No, son cose da non dire.
FA: Certo. Avrei ancora una domanda.
CC: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda nel, quando andavate in rifugio, suonava la sirena, andavate in rifugio, come si confrontava con i suoi compagni?
CC: Ma no, eravamo, si giocava. Eravamo, andavamo giù quando suonava l’allarme, bisognava andare in rifugio. E tutti assieme in mezzo alla segatura, si giocava, sì, sì, si scherzava, si giocava, non avevamo paura, no, no, giù da basso non avevamo paura, ci sentivamo tranquilli, non lo so, niente.
FA: Niente.
CC: Mi ricordo una volta sola che siamo andati, meno male che siamo andati quando è suonata l’allarme perché? Perché c’era l’invasione delle cimici. Eravamo in camerata, le cimici si arrampicavano, venivano su, a metà si lanciavano giù addosso al letto quelle cimici rosse.
FS: [laughs] Poveri ragazzi.
CC: Eravamo molestati in un modo tremendo. Meno male che tu dici ‘Suona l’allarme, andiamo in rifugio, queste bestie almeno non ci sono’. Poi cos’hanno fatto? Hanno chiuso e hanno mandato dentro il disinfettante, l’hanno chiuso, sigillato, messo dentro il gas per farli morire. Ma ce n’era un invasione, ma enorme, di una quantità, tutte le cimici. Ma si arrampicavano, s’arrampicavano sul muro, arrivavano su, a metà sul tetto e blump! Si lanciavano giù. Una roba incredibile, una roba da , davano fastidio perché mordevano, eh sì. Ma nel rifugio noi non avevamo niente, stavamo bene, si giocava, non avevamo neanche per la mente.
FA: Anche gli adulti erano tranquilli diciamo o loro più?
CC: Sì, ma gli adulti, no, no, tutti tranquilli, ma gli adulti al massimo eravamo noi, io avevo diciassette anni già, nel ’44, che hanno bombardato nel ’44 a settembre, sempre tutta una settimana di bombardamenti per il ponte, ma va
FA: Ma i padri, i preti venivano sotto anche loro?
CC: Sì, sì, tutti, tutti, i nostri assistenti insieme a noi perché dovevano curarli sti bambini. Perché noi avevamo in camerata, avevamo un assistente in ogni camerata. Camerate erano di circa venti alunni, penso una camerata, forse c’è sul libro, una camerata di venti ragazzi e c’era l’assistente che curava tutti i ragazzi. Perché lì si andava a dormire alle nove, nove e mezza, e poi al mattino si alzava alle sei e mezza, andavamo a lavarci, pulirci, fare la, e poi si faceva il letto, e dovevamo fare il letto, per forza di cose. Poi fatto tutto andavamo giù in chiesa, a dire la coroncina, poi c’era la messa. Poi si andava a fare colazione, la giornata era così, a far colazione, via colazione, si andava al lavoro nelle officine. La sera alle quattro c’era lo studio, si andava a mangiare, poi si giocava, un po’ di ricreazione. Ricreazione in cosa consisteva? Non si poteva giocare a pallone, a calcio, no, solo pallacanestro, pallavolo, c’era un coso per la pallavolo, o altri giochi, la palla avvelenata, che era tremenda, un gioco tremendo, pallina, ci si lanciava uno contro l’altro perché ci si stava negli angoli, poi magari correvo per evitare, tac! Una [unclear] oh ma faceva male. In principio avevo una paura tremenda poi ho imparato, ero il più svelto di tutti.
FS: Svelto.
CC: Poi un altro gioco i battenti, mettevano, si giocava una specie di staffetta coi battenti, bastoncini piatti e si mettevano un po’ qui
FS: [laughs]
perché si picchiava sul sedere
FS: [laughs]
e allora coi battenti te lo riparavi. [laughs]. Giaco, sempre addosso ai nostri assistenti, i più grandi, batti. Eh, che bello. E insomma.
FS: Questa è la sua gioventù.
Poi lì a, negli Artigianelli si stampava il Ticino, c’era la tipografia che era la più bella di Pavia, stampava il Ticino e noi piccolini, prima quando sono entrato
FS: [unclear]
s’andava, c’era una camerata e si piegava il Ticino, si piegava in quattro parti perché poi si faceva il pacco, si legava e veniva spedito alle parrocchie, tutta la diocesi, si preparava tutti i pacchi.
FA: Era il giornale della diocesi? Era il giornale della diocesi?
CC: Sì, c’è ancora adesso, c’è ancora adesso il Ticino. Lo vendono in edicola.
FS: E anche nelle parrocchie.
CC: Sì, anche nelle parrocchie. E lo consegnano ancora.
FS: Parrocchie e
CC: Ma adesso non lo so dove lo fanno. Forse, no lo fanno al Pinne, il Pinne fa questi libri, un nostro amico, qusto qui che ha fatto questi libri è Pisati
FA: L’ho conosciuto sì il Pisati.
FS: Pisati, l’ha conosciuto?
FA: Sì.
CC: Ha conosciuto il Pisati?
FA: Sì.
CC: È bravissimo. Pisati è un mio carissimo amico.
FA: Più giovane però. È più giovane.
CC: Sì, più giovane. Lui ha ancora la ditta, sono due o tre soci mi pare. Ma è bravo Pisati e io ho avuto bisogno tante volte dopo. Eravamo al bar e facevo stampare tutti i manifesti, tutto quello che avevo bisogno.
FA: Va bene.
CC: Questo qui, noi si fa il giornalino e l‘lntrepido lo stampa.
FA: Sì, sì, sì.
CC: E il giornalino a gratis sempre. Le spese di una stretta di man. Bravissimo Pisati, ragazzo d’oro.
FA: Va bene. Allora la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Celestino Chiesa
Description
An account of the resource
Celestino Chiesa remembers his wartime memories as a schoolboy in Pavia, while he was attending the Artigianelli boarding school: food shortages; rationing; Pippo bombing at night; machine-gun nests along the Ticino river; a friend joining the Fascist militia; the bombing of Ponte Vecchio and Borgo Ticino. Stresses how the bombing of Pavia started after the 8 September 1943 armistice. Talks of when he was caught in strafing, and how the memory of the event still unsettles him. Retells of an aircraft jettisoning its bomb load before crashing and how he visited the wreckage site later on. Remembers the constant high-pitched sound of the siren. Describes the time spent in the basement, sitting on a sawdust pile, playing with his friends stressing how they weren’t afraid at all. Mentions his mixed feelings about the public display of Mussolini’s body.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-02-10
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:36:23 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AChiesaC170210
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
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1943-09
1943-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
Pippo
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/PDelCortoD170926.1.jpg
8ebbe28b1ccd6245bf9526739b4de7d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/ADelCortoD170926.2.mp3
2a47a8d095d94f320118ecb51c25c2d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Del Corto, Delia
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Delia Del Corto who recollects her wartime experiences in Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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DelCorto, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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FC: Allora, questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Delia Del Corto. L’intervistatrice è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Viareggio, è il 26 Settembre 2017. Assiste all’intervista Elena Lencioni. Ok, grazie, grazie per quest’intervista, possiamo cominciare, no. Allora, come le stavo accennando prima, mi piacerebbe partire da tipo, quando è nata, dove è nata, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, prima della guerra, prima di iniziare a parlare della guerra. Se aveva fratelli, sorelle, tutto quanto.
DDC: Allora, io sono nata l’1.11.32.
FC: OK.
DDC: Allora, la famiglia era una famiglia grande perchè eravamo sei figli, il papà e la mamma, il nonno e la nonna, dieci persone. Avevamo la nostra casa, grazie a Dio, avevamo il nostro terreno, avevamo insomma, ecco. Il papà e il nonno erano falegnami, avevano una falegnameria. Poi c’avevo un fratello che faceva il verniciatore, poi ce n’avevo un altro [laughs], un altro invece che, come si può dire, era con lo zio Aldo quando era a lavorare ne, io non lo so come ci si chiamava insomma
EL: Ma, era un operaio.
DDC: Ma lavorava in, no, in un, come un ristorante o roba del genere. Ora non me lo ricordo bene,
EL: Sì, ah ok.
DDC: Non me lo ricordo bene però tra un altro e l’altro voglio dire, poi c’era lo zio Luigi che invece lui faceva il, era, avevano tutti qualcosa, lo zio Aldo faceva, ehm, come si dice
EL: Lavorava in un albergo.
DDC: Lavorava in un albergo però poteva fare anche l’imbianchino, poteva fare tante cose, fra l’altro, sono tante, infatti voglio dire, se mi concedeva di farmi un, così una panoramica e poi mi diceva magari ora facciamo sì ma insomma potevo. Dimmi qualcosa.
FC: Va benissimo così, va benissimo, noi, qualsiasi cosa si ricorda va bene. Non c’è problema.
EL: Ma dove, dove stavate voi?
FC: Esatto.
DDC: Si stava a Montemagno,
FC: OK.
DDC: Comune di Camaiore, il paesino Montemagno, lo sa no dov’è? Si abitava un pochino sopra così sopra il paese ma di poco, in cinque minuti s’arrivava e avevamo del terreno giù in paese, e avevamo tanto del terreno, c’era uliveto, c’era bosco, c’erano le vigne, c’era un popò di tutto ecco. Adesso ora io non so che posso di raccontarvi ecco. E in
FC: Sì, no, no, vada avanti pure.
DDC: Vuole sapere in tempo di guerra quello che
FC: Sì, sì. Va bene. Quello che si ricorda.
DDC: Eh, ma io non so quello che era tempo
FC: Lei si ricorda quando è iniziata la guerra?
DDC: Ero ragazzina, ora non so dire proprio il giorno preciso ma insomma che era scoppiata questa guerra e tutto quanto, anche nel paese voglio dire se ne parlava, poi ci fu da uscire di lì, andare, si portarono, c’avevamo le pecore, allora avevamo tutto il bestiame, c’erano le mucche perché nel paese così c’era, avevamo un pochino di tutto ecco, i nostri. E si portarono le pecore sopra Gombitelli, a, spetta come si chiama, al Ferrandino. Al Ferrandino, era proprio al tempo della guerra quella lì eh. Io ero ragazzina e lassù c’era andata la mia sorella più grande, insieme c’aveva portato il mi papà perché? Perché gli uomini, guai, erano sempre cercati lì, cosa [unclear], i tedeschi e allora andavano a dormire nel bosco lì per lì, per non farsi trovare e tutto quanto. Poi era una vita troppo difficoltosa. Ci si fece a attraversare la strada maestra perché lassù da dove si abita noi per andare a Gombitelli c’è da, c’è da scendere dalla casa dove abitiamo, c’è da scendere in paese e giù c’è la strada che fa Camaiore, che fa Valpromaro, che va a Lucca che va, ecco c’è la strada. Abbiamo attraversato la strada lì, siamo saliti su per il bosco, siamo andati, quando, no a Gombitelli, più su del Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, c’abbiamo portato le pecore perché? Perché in quel momento lì i tedeschi prendevino le mucche, prendevino le pecore, facevino d’ogni ben di dio, quel che gli veniva in mente. Allora per evitare, noi le nostre bestine, le nostre cose, insomma, abbiamo, le abbiamo portate lassù. Lassù ce le hann date alla zia Liliana, c’aveva portato il nonno Alberto, e io non ricordo più dello zio Virgilio perché se era andato lassù anche lui, se c’era andato non lo ricordo a dir la verità, a dir la verità. E io avevo diec’anni, avevo diec’anni e la nonna Ancilla era in stato interessante della zia Raffaella. Allora si partiva una volta per settimana, si faceva il pane in casa, casalingo perché lassù al nostro paese c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo tutto, si faceva il pane. E poi, dopo con quelle borse grandi, lunghe così si portava tutto, il pane alla sua, alla zia Liliana insomma, si portava lassù sopra Gombitelli. E io cercavo di aiutarli come meglio potevo ma ero una ragazzina, voglio dire, un po’ più mingherlina, insomma vabbè facevo del mio meglio. E ora che
EL: C’erano anche partigiani.
DDC: E c’erano anche partigiani, sì. E una volta, allora, la posso raccontare, quel discorso del partigiano che ci fu un incontro tra cosi e il partigiano fu ferito?
EL: Certo.
FC: Certo.
DDC: Eh, non so quel che vuole sapere [unclear].
FC: Queste cose qua.
DDC: Ecco. Allora in quel momento lì c’erino partigiani e c’erano i tedeschi, ora non ricordo la precisione dove erano questi tedeschi. Ci fu un incontro e s’incominciarono a tirare col cannone le cose con le mitragliatrici insomma e ci fu anche, ferirono un partigiano. Ferirono un partigiano, era lassù sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino anche lui, questo ragazzo. Allora non si sapeva come, non si sapeva, io ero ragazzina ma lo ricordo il discorso lì. E mi si diede, noi un lenzuolo fatto sul telaio, di quella tela grossa, la inchiodarono su du cosi, du
EL: Due assi. Assi.
DDC: Du assi inchiodarono questo coso, ci misero dentro questo coso ferito, questo ragazzo ferito e poi quattro donne di lassù, perché le stanghe del coso d’avertici nel mezzo l’ammalato erano due. Allora una donna di qui una donna di là, una di qui, una di là, quattro ragazze di lassù dal Ferrandino hanno portato questo povero ragazzo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Per la strada, siccome c’era dei posti di blocco, no? Allora questi tedeschi fermavano, ‘te, dove andare?’, facevano questo discorso qui, no. Allora questi ragazzi mi dicevino che non lo potevano scoprire perché questo ragazzo che era lì sulla portantina aveva un male che s’attaccava, sì, un male, come si chiama?
EL: La peste.
DDC: Come?
EL: La peste.
DDC: No, ma non era.
FC: Contagioso.
DDC: Contagioso, era un male contagioso. Digli così, loro avevino paura. E insomma, fu così che queste ragazze ce la fecero a portare questo ferito all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora però io di lì non so più nulla nel senso perché ero ragazzina, voglio dire, anche se se ne è parlato non lo ricordo. Insomma ce la fecero queste ragazze a portare questo giovanotto all’ospedale. E non c’era portantine, non c’era nulla, allora la mia sorella più grande gli diede un lenzuolo fatto da noi sul telaio che è bello robusto, lo inchiodarono su due aste lì di coso, ci misero questo ferito e quattro ragazze prese di lassù portarono questo. E per la strada c’erano i posti di blocco e mi dicevano: ‘te, dove andare?’, visto come fanno, facevano così i tedeschi e questo era coperto e mi dicevino: ‘io lo scopro però’ che aveva, non so che malattia dicevino che si raccattava, una malattia.
FC: Il tifo.
DDC: Tipo il tifo, un affare del genere. Loro avevino una paura, no, no, allora, come dì, andate via. Fatto sta che ce la fecero a portarlo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora lì cosa successe poi io non lo so perché poi, voglio dire, non si potevino sapè tutte le cose, a quell’ora lì insomma.
FC: Quindi in questo paesino c’era tanta gente che era scappata su sui monti al
DDC: Al Ferrandino?
FC: Eh.
DDC: Ora, lì dove eravamo, noi avevamo trovato, ma più che una, insomma era una casetta, na stanzina, du stanzine piccoline che accanto c’avevino perfino il bestiame. S’era trovato questo piccolo coso così, come si dice, quando si va, si cerca na casina di sfollati, quel che si può trovà, si può trovà, così.
EL: Gli altri dormivano nel bosco, no?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Altri dormivano nel bosco.
DDC: Altri dormivano nel bosco ma nel bosco io lassù, quando siamo andati lassù, non, quello non lo sapevo perché più in là c’erano partigiani insomma era, era una cosa così lassù. Allora, nel bosco io lo so bene che ci dormivano quando si abitava qui a casa nostra. A casa nostra anche il nonno Alberto ha dormito nel bosco come lo zio Virgilio e io gli andavo a portare da mangiare. Allora, ti ha sentì, gli facevo, perché lassù la casa dove abbiamo la casa noi, per andare nel bosco praticamente s’attraversa tutta la strada ma così boschiva, eh. Allora io che facevo? Avevo dieci anni no, m’ero, la mamma m’aveva fatto, la mamma era sarta, m’ero fatta fare una gonna tutta increspata, sotto la gonna io c’avevo messo i sacchettini, non so se l’ha presente il sacchetto che ci s’andava a coglier olive?
FC: No, non ce l’ho presente.
DDC: Di stoffa, eh, tipo un grembiule ma però c’ha una bocca così, fatta così, fatto così il grembiule, il sacchetto, no? Ecco. Allora sotto la gonna il sacchetto, il sacchetto col da mangiare per il papà e per il fratello, ecco. E poi sopra un altro affare che facevo visto che andà nel bosco a raccoglier pini, un cesto al braccio, insomma così e cosà. E quaggiù c’avevo la roba da portare a mi papà e mi fratello eh e allora incontravo tedeschi, ‘te dove andare?’ e io gli dicevo che era, insomma facevo capire così che raccoglievo pini perché c’avevo la cesta al braccio con pini dentro, insomma tutto quanto. Però ero una ragazzina piccina, non pensavino di, e invece andavo a portà, se m’avessero scoperto [laughs].
FC: Eh, meno male. Ma quindi il suo papà e i fratelli erano nascosti lì perché avevano paura che
DDC: Eh sì, c’erano rastrellamenti perché, faccia conto che ogni volta per settimana e anche due facevano rastrellamenti. Quelli che erino giù in paese, i tedeschi, allora venivano su e venivino a fare rastrellamenti anche dove, noi si stava sopra il paese, popoino sopra il paese così, e noi ragazzi s’andava in cima così, ora io non so come spiegarglielo perché da lassù dalla casa dove abitiamo noi si vede giù il paese, s’affacciamo così si vede il paese, e c’erano queste macchine di tedeschi, queste cose vicine alla chiesa così e noi se n’accorgieva, ci s’accorgieva quando loro partivano per fare questi rastrellamenti. Allora, che si faceva? Te va a chiamar tu papà, te va a chiamà, a bussà a la porta, andate via perché vengino i tedeschi a fare rastrellamenti. Allora si finivinu di vestì per
FC: Per strada [laughs].
DDC: Per la strada e una volta lì accanto a me e perfino un nostro parente Elia, quando, ecco, non ce la fece a scappare questo giovanotto, non ce la fece a scappare, niente i tedeschi in casa. Allora c’aveva na sorella, che aveva na bimbetta piccolina, che era nata da poco e insomma e questa sorella stava lì con loro perché il marito era militare. E lei era in camera con questa figliola, allora, si pigiavano [makes a knocking noise] ecco i tedeschi, ecco i tedeschi, via. Allora lei che fece? Lu era su in questa camera che dormiva, non ce la fece ad andar via, si mise tra una materassa e l’altra, sdraiato su, tra una materassa e l’altra, la su, le coperte che coprivano questo coso, la sorella a sedere che dava la poppata alla figliola. Entrino i tedeschi in camera e, c’era la bimba, c’era la donna che dava la poppata alla figliola e insomma, hai visto come fai, facevano loro insomma, però come dire, non c’è nessuno ve’. Il fratello l’aveva messo tra una materassa e l’altra e le c’era a sedè così che dava, come dì, questa è lì, io mi metto a sedere sopra di lui e do da poppà alla figliola. Queste son cose successe davvero.
FC: Eh no, ci credo, lo so, lo so. Quindi non erano partigiani però i suoi famigliari.
DDC: No, no, proprio partigiani di dire sono stati ne partigiani no, non erano certi per i tedeschi però neanche [laughs]
FC: Anche perché se scappavano insomma.
DDC: Ma poi mio fratello, era, voglio dire, giovanetto, mio papà aveva già una certa età, non era per esempio, ragazzi da andare anche.
EL: Ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
DDC: Sì, il papà, il nonno ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, vero, mi papà.
FC: Eh, va bene.
DDC: E quando ammazzarono là nella selva quei sette, n’ammazzarono sette. Una mattina si sente camminare così [stamps her feet] perché c’abbiamo proprio la casa lassù dove abbiamo la casa paterna, qui c’è la porta e lì c’è la strada che passa proprio lì davanti la strada e si sentiva [stamps her feet] camminare così. C’affacciamo sulla porta, io ero una ragazzina perché avevo paura e la mi mamma invece, lei non aveva paura di nulla, lei c’aveva sempre di vedè, da cosa no, di vedere se poteva aiutà qualcuno, era così, lei era così. S’affacciamo sulla porta e c’era sette giovanotti così camminavino uno dietro l’altro, prima un tedesco [unclear] e c’eran due tedeschi così. E signora, quando videro la mi mamma che s’affaccia sulla porta così, perché la porta è proprio sulla strada, la soglia così come lì ci fosse la strada, un sogliettina così. E la mi mamma quando li vide questi qui, allora che succede, che succede? o signora, ma loro non si poteva mica fermà a chiacchierare, la mamma n’andava dietro, o signora, ci portano ad ammazzare a Stiava. Ci portano, perché allora li fucilavano da tutte le parti, era così, e la mi mamma n’andava dietro perché loro camminavino e parlavino, ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava. Me lo dice a la mi mamma che c’ha visto? Ma e che vi posso dire, io non so chi sia la tua mamma e c’era a quell’ora degli sfollati che erano venuti via, viareggini erano venuti lassù perché facevino bombardamenti le, le cose no, e c’erino allora, tanti andavino nel paese così per, non istavino nelle città perché era più pericoloso. Ma come fa, eh signora ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava e guarda lì. E ma camminà non si poteva, non me ha fermà e la mamma dietro. Ma lei pensi, eh, la mi mamma non aveva paura di nulla. Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma? Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma che ci portino? Ma io non la conosco la mamma, tesoro, ma come faccio a dire a la tu mamma? Mi disse anche come si chiamava la su mamma ma io ora quello non me lo ricordo perché ero ragazzina, insomma. E dopo a un certo punto un pochino l’andò di dietro a questi, erano tutti in fila così, i tedeschi con quel coso puntato. Ad un certo punto la mamma si rigirò ma dopo un, sarà passato un dieci minuti, infatti furono fucilati lì vicino alla casa nostra, voglio dire. Ci siam [unclear] questa cosa le [mimics machine gun noise] queste scariche, no. Oddio, disse la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, a me piglia il freddo, erano [unclear] perché cose passate proprio da lassù, oddio oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati. Dopo così un pochino ma non so il tempo che sarà passato ritornino indietro questi tedeschi con quei fucili, però quegli altri ragazzi non c’erino più. L’hanno ammazzati, diceva la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati. Io bisogna che vadi a vedere se qualcuno avessino bisogno di noi. Queste cose le ho viste, eh!
FC: Sì, sì.
DDC: Allora, la mi mamma si parte, si fece allontanare questi tedeschi perché stavino dal Bellotti ora te lo sai voglio dì, insomma quando si furono allontanati la mia mamma disse io ciò d’andà a vedè sti ragazzi com’è il discorso. Si parte ma per non mandarcela sola sta povera donna e io vado sempre dietro alla mamma. Quando si cammina poco distante dalla casa questi ragazzi tutti sternacchiati nella strada morti. Queste cose non si possino scordà!
FC: Eh immagino.
DDC: Non si possino scordare queste cose qui.
FC: E questi tedeschi non dicevano niente?
DDC: I, no, no, c’hanno anche, non li si poteva dir nulla perché guai, voglio dire. Non ci venivino mica a raccontà le cose a noi. Guai che, e poi, non avendo mai trovati gli uomini lì nelle nostre case perché eravamo in sette famiglie. Gli uomini non ce li avevino mai trovati perché chi dormiva nel bosco, chi dopo, noi siam dopo sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino erano cioè erano andati vai perché lì nel paese lì vicino a Ricetro c’era il terreno, tedeschi anche lì c’erino proprio a dove c’è la villa lì a Ricetro, c’erino, l’avevimo da tutte le parti.
EL: Avevano messo anche un cartello, no, i tedeschi, con scritto che eravate partigiani.
DDC: Sì, qui tutti partigiani, tutti partigiani. Di stare attenti, qui c’era, no, ma ne avevino messo quattro, cinque di questi cosi, che erimo partigiani e c’era da stà, come si faceva? E’ così.
EL: E quello che venne in casa a chiedere il pane invece?
DDC: Allora, si faceva il pane, la mamma faceva il pane in casa, fatto così da noi no. C’abbiamo il forno.
FC: Che pane era?
DDC: Il pane bono, il pane casalingo.
FC: Bianco o nero?
DDC: No, bianco, no, non si faceva nero, si faceva normale voglio dire. Perché poi c’avevamo, si seminava il grano da noi voglio dire e poi a quell’ora c’era un, c’era la tessera, a quell’ora e davano un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno, a tessera alle persone, un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno. Invece c’era la possibilità, chi voleva la farina, si poteva prendere la farina. Allora a te la farina invece ne davino un pochino di, insomma a quell’ora là. Allora la mi mamma preferiva prendere la farina e poi il pane farlo da noi perché lassù alla casa paterna, accanto c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo il forno. E poi c’aveva, ci s’aveva insomma sai terreno e si seminava il grano anche da noi e un po’ il grano ce l’avevamo anche da noi. E allora si prendeva un po’ dell’uno e un po’ dell’altro e si cercava di tirare avanti e fà questo pane. Allora, il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], quel pane casalingo, lungo, grosso, no, così. Avevamo levato il pane e la mamma per farlo ghiacciare si metteva la tavola che ci si metteva poi il pane sopra quando si portava il pane al forno perché il pane, il forno, come qui c’abbiamo la casa, il forno era come lì in fondo, si camminava pochi passi, c’avevamo il forno. E niente, questa sedia, due sedie così, ci metteva la tavola e metteva il pane così e ritto come fosse, questo è il pane così e per farlo ghiacciare, prima di metterlo nell’armadio non ci si poteva mettere. A un certo punto, e noi eravamo, questi bamboretti perché c’erano altri du fratelli, c’era Franco, che ora è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è Franco che è prete voglio dì, erimo tutti in terra, io ero la più grandina, a sedè seduto su una cosa. E c’avevimo, aveva levato il pane, era là, così questo pane a ghiacciare. Entra un tedesco in casa poi si sentiva proprio quel profumo di pane casalingo, no, così, pane, pane, pane, perché, a un certo punto hann sofferto tanto anche loro eh, poverini, io quelli prima non lo so ma quelli quando li abbiamo avuti vicini lo so, poi loro c’avevino un pane nero come minimo così, brutto e cattivo, che se lo infilavi nel muro [laughs] si spaccava il muro ma il pane no. Allora, aveva fatto, aveva levato questo pane e noi eravamo, bamboretti così, eravamo io, che ero la più grandina poi altri du fratelli e poi c’era quello che ora è, Franco che è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è prete sì. Eravamo lì tutti in terra, c’era steso un panno e eravamo lì tutti in terra così a sedere e si chiacchierava così tra una cosa e l’altra, visto che si fa bamboretti insieme, anch’io voglio dire ero bamboretta perché avevo dieci anni ecco. Entra un tedesco, pane, pane, perché si sentiva il bel profumo di pane [unclear] così, pane, pane, pane. Entra e noi, questi bamboretti si fece certi occhi così e si vide entrà, e va là questo coso e piglia un pane così nella tavola come faccio io ora e dopo parte questo tedesco. Un vuole che il discorso nel frattempo che lui ci va fuori, entra la mi mamma: ‘E te, ndu vai?’. Mi disse, io, pane e pane. Parte di corsa. E lì, siccome, nel mentre che l’entrava questo andava via col pane in mano, mi chiappa il pane mi mà, e lo riporta là. [background laughing] E lu, andè via ma però poverino [unclear], ecco e lei s’affaccia sulla porta e lo guardava e dopo anche noi ragazzi sai e lu poverino andava via con la testa, un po’ son dolori perché aveva capito, come dì, ho preso il pane perché siccome lo sapevino anche loro che c’era la fame per il mondo a quell’ora, no, e allora, e a lei, come dì, povera donna hann levato il pane per i suoi figlioli, hai capito? E lu andava via così. E la mamma, no, la mamma la, nel mentre entrava la mamma, mi sono scordata un discorso. Nel mentre che la mamma entrava, e lui usciva fori col pane e lei glielo prese, tu ,come dì, m’hai preso il pane che per i miei figlioli, vedi quanti ce ne ho! Perché non erimo neanche tutti noi, c’era Franco, c’eran tutti
EL: Sì, sì, c’eran tutti.
DDC: Glielo prese e lo rimise là. E lu andè via, lo capì forse nella sua cosa capì che questo discorso come dì, hai preso il pane che c’erano i miei figlioli lì poverini miei che morino da fame. Quando lei lo rimise là e poi, e lu andè via ma popo’ così pover’omo, e dopo lei s’affacciò e lo guardò e lu era andato via un poco macilento così a lei ne seppe male, prese il pane, poi s’affaccia sulla porta: ‘Camerata! Camerata! Camerata!’ ‘Sì?’ e lu si gira e lei n’andò incontro e gli dette il pane. Povera donna. Lu, io v’avrei fatto vedè questo ragazzo abbracciato a nonna, v’avrei fatto vedè. Tutti i giorni che lu passava de lì c’aveva da salutar la nonna. Camerata! Poverini, han sofferto anche loro perché [unclear] quelli lì c’era quello che era più buono, c’era insomma, poverini. Non te le puoi scordà queste cose che. E lì vicino alla nostra casa t’ho detto, cioè ammazzarono questi ragazzi.
EL: Però era a Pioppetti, no? Il tuo vicino di casa, lì.
DDC: A Pioppetti, a Pioppetti trentadue.
EL: Ma il tuo vicino di casa come l’ammazzarono a Pioppetti, che l’andarono a prendere al bar?
DDC: Ah, ma quello, Corrado.
EL: Sì.
DDC: Corrado, quello sì che stava in
EL: Come mai c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti?
DDC: Allora, c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti perché se tu, ora io non so se lei è pratico come. Te vieni da coso, dal Pitoro, vieni dal Pitoro e quando arrivi a un certo punto c’è la strada che continua e va a Valpromaro, c’è la strada che va giù che va a Montemagno, e po’ Camaiore, un po’ dalle parti lì, no? Allora, c’è questo incrocio e lì, allora c’è anche quella marginetta?
FC: Sì.
DDC: Allora, dove c’è quella marginetta lì c’avevino ammazzato un capitano tedesco che l’avevino accusato e c’è stata non so quanto ferma la su jeep che avevino insomma quelle macchine lì che avevino soldati.
FC: Sì.
DDC: Perché c’erino partigiani lassù, dove siamo stati anche noi lassù al Ferrandino. Erino scesi di notte che avevino fatto? Avevino trovato, avevino visto che questa macchina veniva e loro appostati hanno sparato a questi partigiani, eh a questi tedeschi e avevino ammazzato questo capitano dei tedeschi, non so, capitano, generale, non lo so com’era. E lì c’era la su macchina ferma c’era stata tanto e lì ammazzavino un tedesco? Normale, dieci dei nostri fucilati. E invece un tedesco, un graduato, è logico che lì quanti ne passò. Eppoi, faccia, fa conto che trentadue li impiccarono, a ogni platano c’era uno impiccato. Trentadue. E poi se ne ammazzarono dei altri ora non me lo ricordo ma quelli io li ho visti.
EL: Il papà di Rino?
DDC: Eh, il papà di Rino, quello lo ammazzarono ma non senza portarlo laggiù. Vennero in sù, quando arrivarono lì a Leccio sono entrati perché c’è sempre stato ci vendevano insomma i cosi.
EL: L’alimentare.
DDC: L’alimentare insomma era un popo’ di tutto il sale, quella roba lì ci si andava a comprare allora il pane, un popo’ di minestra, insomma, quel che si poteva, ecco, e lui, si fermarono lì, lo trovarono lì, e lo presero. Ammazzarono. Ora, se l’ammazzarono lì laggiù ce l’hanno portato morto, se no, ce l’hanno portato, non so com’era o non me lo ricordo ora, quella cosa lì on me la ricordo bene.
EL: Ma sapeva una cosa della forchetta?
DDC: Ah, ma della forchetta che la, sì, ma quella, allora, allora, perché l’han trovato, eccovedi, ora me l’hai messo in mente, lo trovarono a mangiare e lu pover’omo mangiava la forchetta, e l’ammazzarono e la forchetta gliel’avevino infilata, pover’omo, sì. Erino, erino cose brutte a quell’ora lì, sì.
EL: Invece il camion?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Il camion mitragliato?
DDC: E il camion mitragliato, ma più che quelle cose però, più che un camion grosso era na macchina sempre da soldato si vedeva, era lì davanti dove c’è quella marginetta.
EL: No, no, ma dico, quello mitragliato dagli aerei.
DDC: Ora quello non me lo ricordo come
FC: In generale si ricorda per esempio degli aerei che mitragliavano, dei bombardamenti?
DDC: Ma quello, allora un camion che mitragliarono, la prima cosa che si fece che erimo io e lo zio Luigi, eravamo alle pecore, avemmo portato le pecore quaggiù nella selva che là c’è la dove si scende il monte di, per andare a Camaiore la. Noi si chiamava la Girata del Giannini perché lì c’era la cosa, la Signori Giannini, che a quell’ora c’era la villa di questi signori. E questa selva noi dove si mandava le pecore era vicina che come dì là c’è la villa, come fosse là, è la villa e qui, noi c’eravamo con le pecore e lì c’era la strada che passava e saliva sul monte di Montemagno. Allora quando un camion passava, eravamo vicini da questa curva e a parte che c’erano castagne, c’erino gli alberi e tutto quanto però la curva la rimaneva visente che voglio dire e noi, quando si vede questi. Nel frattempo arrivano questi aerei, arrivano questi aerei e là c’era questo camion, proprio a questa curva lì e il camion quando sentì gli aerei si fermò, si fermò lì, eh, oh, non c’era modo e lì era tutto scoperto. Questi cami fecero la picchiata, incominciarono a mitragliare questo camion, noi io e il fratello più piccolino c’avevamo le pecore allora, non so se ne ha raccontato a te, queste pecore, perché cami, e gli aerei quando fanno le picchiate poi, venivino bassi, venivino bassi chequasi quasi pareva che ti vedessero perché lì per, per cosa questo camion, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] pecore spariti no. Oddio, si chiamava Luigi il mio fratello lì, che eravamo insieme, era più piccolino di me, le pecore sparite, non si sapeva dove erino andate a finì. Oh Luigi, ma noi si va a, andiamo a casa, andiamo a casa e si parte. Piglio mio fratello che era più piccolino di me per la mano e su attraverso per la vigne, per le cose, si arriva a, sì ma si andava per venì a casa, come si fa a dì alla mamma che le pecore non c’è più? E ndov’è queste pecore, ndov’è queste pecore, come si fa a dirglielo. Quando s’arriva a casa, prima d’andare a casa, si passa dall’ovile dove avevamo le pecore, no. Le pecore erano già tutte là suddentro! Si pigiavano l’una con l’altro, si pigiati, io ve ‘vrei fatto vedè, si erano ricosate tutte insieme, avevino avuto paura anche loro perché quando questi aerei facevino, un po’ bassi così, voglio dì, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] per cosà quel camion. No, io quelle pecore ve l’avrei fatto vedè. Eppure presero la, erimo lontani, perché ora lei non lo sa ma di laggiù dalla curva del Giannini arrivà alle capanne, un è lì, come si fa, si diceva lo zio Luigi, oh Luigi, ma come si fa a dire alla mamma che un si sà dove sono andate le pecore? Come si fa? Io ero più grandina, come si fa andargliela a dì? E lo so, diceva mio fratello tutto calmo così eh, oh, c’è da dirglielo [laughs], c’è da dirglielo. Lo so che c’è da dirglielo, ma come si fa? E invece, quando s’arrivò a casa, lei pensi no, le pecore erano tutte dentro, una pigiata col culo nell’altro, sì n’avrei fatto vedè, pareva un gomitolo dallo spavento che avevino avuto anche loro. Perché questi aerei per fà la picchiata su quel, venivino proprio, ci sarebbe insomma lo potevi toccare, potevi prendere, una cosa così non si può scordà.
FC: E si ricorda degli altri episodi dove c’erano gli aerei? Degli altri momenti?
DDC: No, degli aerei.
FC: Così, che mitragliavano?
DDC: No, succedeva che, ad esempio quando hanno anche, mi pare anche che abbiano bombardato anche Viareggio qualche volta ecco, però noi stando lassù si poteva vedere questi aerei che facevino, si diceva delle volte, vedi stanno facendo la picchiata, si diceva tra noi ragazzi, perché [mimics noise of diving plane] e così o tiravino le bombe, ecco, quello sì. Però più vicini no [coughs] da noi.
FC: Ho capito, ho capito.
DCC: Quello era [laughs].
FC: E invece, ma lei lo sapeva chi erano questi aerei? Cioè chi è che li guidava? Chi è che faceva queste cose?
DCC: No, no, quello io non lo sapevo, allora prima di tutto
FC: Nessuno gliel’aveva spiegato?
DCC: No, che c’erano sopra come dì, dei soldati che guidavano l’aereo, quello sì, però non sapevo altro ecco.
FC: OK.
DCC: Perché le dico anche un discorso. Allora, ora in tutte le case ci sono le televisioni c’è, però voglio dire noi non ci sapevano, non si sapevano le cose ecco.
FC: E lei andava a scuola, in quel periodo lì?
DDC: E io in tempo, dunque la guerra c’è stata nel? ’40-’45, nel ’45 son passati di lassù. Ecco io però allora nel quarant, che ad esempio le dirò una cosa. Io ho fatto soltanto la terza elementare. Perché lì al paese facevano solo, vedi dopo, dopo no, dopo fecero, hanno fatto anche fino alla quinta però lì ci facevano fino alla terza elementare. Che succedeva? Chi voleva continuare per fare fino alla quinta, c’era da andare o a Valpromaro o alla Tirelici. Allora chi c’aveva la bicicletta, chi ci poteva che è, va bene, se no, si accontentavino della terza elementare. E infatti, io ho fatto solo la terza elementare.
FC: Prima della guerra quindi.
DDC: Sì, sì, prima della guerra.
EL: Prima della resistenza, perché sì, sì perché, prima della guerra.
DDC: Eh oh.
EL: Eh sì, perché sei del ’32.
DDC: Io sono del ’32 e la guerra nel ’40-’44 voglio dire, la peggio qui tra noi è passata nel ’44.
EL: Sì, sì, sì.
DDC: E allora chi voleva continuare, chi poteva continuare, c’era da andare a fare la quarta e quinta a Valpromaro o alla Tivaelici. Allora per quel che riguarda i nostri fratelli che si, coso l’han fatta alla cosa, Vergilio, l’han fatta alla Tivaelici. Invece dopo, hanno fatto, la quarta e la quinta la facevano anche lì alla scuola a Montemagno, infatti Luigi, lo zio Luigi e Aldo l’hanno fatta lì la quarta e la quinta che mi ricordo, per fare la quarta e la quinta a Luigi c’era una maestra tedesca a insegnarli. Che era cattiva da morire, che li picchiava, che una volta con una cosa, che poi lo zio Luigi era, boh non ce n’era, non ce n’era davvero, e n’aveva con, con una stecca di legno n’aveva picchiato su una cosa, aveva fatto male a un unghia, ora non mi ricordo, guarda, era insomma così. Quando venne a casa, che era buono lo zio Luigi, lo zio Aldo era un pochino più vivace, ma lo zio Luigi era un ragazzo che non ce n’era davvero, eh mio fratello. Allora, ma lei era cattiva, siccome poi parlava più tedesco che italiano, non la intedevino bene, lei voleva essere capita, voleva, non aveva quella cosa di dire, ma io parlo con dei bimbetti, voglio dire, che pretendo, no? No, no. Lei picchiava, c’aveva una stecca di legno, ma tipo un bastone no così e li picchiava e n’aveva picchiato su un unghia lo zio Luigi e quest’unghia mi sembra, era andata tutta, no. Lo zio Vergilio, quando vide che questo, a questo figliolo n’aveva accusato mezzo un unghia ma poi li s’era diventato tutto nero perché le unghie son delicate, con la stecca, che poi lo zio Luigi era buono, era un ragazzo, no, non ce n’era, Aldo no, lo zio Aldo era più vivace ma lo zio Luigi era un santo davvero. San Luigi Gonzaga delle volte si diceva, era così davvero eh. Allora, quando venne a casa che vide questo dito sfatto, lo zio Vergilio va laggù, trappò la chiappa per il collo, che sia la prima e ultima volta perché te insegno, mi fa, e poi non so chi salvò sennò la guantava per il collo sta maestra insomma che poi ti rovinavi perché voglio dì. Ma insomma, siamo così.
FC: E poi, lei prima a un certo punto ha detto che dopo un po’ sono arrivati dei tedeschi vicino, no, alla casa dove stava lei? Non ho capito se era lo stesso di quello che cercava il pane oppure se erano degli altri?
DDC: No, no, ora però che n’ho raccontato che facevano i rastrellamenti, in quel punto lì?
FC: No, in generale, se c’erano dei, se lei ha avuto a che fare altre volte con dei tedeschi? Se.
DCC: Eh ,tedeschi passavino mille volte davanti a casa, così e cosà, eh, voglio dire, di che, che l’avevino ammazzati il coso l’ho detto quel discorso lì ecco. E poi c’era una villa vicina come dì, come ti ho detto io, quella è come fosse da casa mia e là c’erino proprio tedeschi, ha capito? Eh, oh, che facevano a venir qua e andà? Camminavino tante volte su e giu però insomma ecco un c’è più stato delle cose così.
FC: Ho capito.
DDC: Da quella volta lì che ammazzarono quelli lì dopo voglio dire non c’è più stato. E dopo poverini venivino la gente a vedere perché sapevino per esempio, c’è, n’avevino ammazzato che era gente di, uomini di Stiava che l’avevino presi, l’avevino ammazzati là e quell’altro era da n’altra parte perché lì facevino i rastrellamenti e poi li chiappavino perché venivan in mente. Dicevino loro qui si va [unclear]. Erano tutti partigiani secondo loro anche se non erino perché quella gente lì poverino non erino partigiani.
FC: E invece di fascisti?
DDC: Ma fascisti nel paese, nel paese?
FC: Fascisti nel senso italiani, sì, fascisti che, non i tedeschi, i fascisti se venivano a, non so.
DDC: No, fascisti anche nei paesi allora c’era un discorso c’era sempre per dire il capo dei fascisti, quelli che contavino logico che, che poi facevano come ti potrei dire ad esempio il quattro novembre che facevino la, che uscivano fuori, facevino, andavano giù per la strada un bel terzo e poi si rigiravino insomma quando facevino quelle dimostrazioni lì, se ad esempio, tutti non c’andavano, guai, ma quelli non, ecco, erano proprio quelli del paese che ce l’avevino con te perché magari non la pensavi come lui, hai capito? Allora, così, così. Allora, ma proprio un tempo proprio de coso, prendevano un tempo proprio de famoso del fascismo, riprendevino chi non era andato, c’era de, il quattro novembre, faccio per dire, ora un discorso del genere e chi non c’andava, allora andavino a prender a casa e poi gli n’davino l’olio di ricino lì, ecco, tutte quelle cose lì. E nei paesi più che nelle città. Perché c’era sempre quello che ce l’aveva con quello là perché, hai capito, così. Così.
FC: Capito. E lei si ricorda quando è finita la guerra?
DDC: Ora quello, io non lo ricordo.
FC: Cioè, cosa, se è cambiato qualcosa, non proprio il giorno, magari non proprio il giorno preciso preciso. Però se c’è stato un momento in cui lei aveva capito che la guerra era finita?
DDC: Allora, allora, quando insomma era finita la guerra, questo me lo ricordo. Allora, dice, ma lo sai che vengono, oggi, dice, vengono gli Americani a Stiava, faccio per dì. Allora noi si scese il bosco, salgo a Stiava, infatti nel frattempo erano arrivati questi Americani, questi cosi, ci fu, la gente l’acclamava tutti insomma, quel discorso lì sì me lo ricordo però così come, comunque ci s’andò.
FC: E c’era andata.
DDC: Sì, ci sono andata, sì ci s’andò. Eh certo.
FC: E poi cos’è successo, cos’è successo dopo qunado è finita la guerra? Come sono cambiate le cose?
DDC: Eh, dopo allora abbiamo cominciato voglio dire, meno male questo, meno male quell’altro, voglio dire non c’era più il coso di rimpiattarsi, era tutta un’altra cosa. Eh, dopo quando ci furono.
FC: E’ tornata nella casa?
DDC: Sì, allora, il papà che eravamo andati tipo uno perché i tedeschi li prendevino, li fucilavino, li cosavino e erino andati lassù come detto sopra Gombitelli. Allora, quando furono, quando ci furono, voglio dire che siamo stati salvati allora ognuno è ritornato nelle sue case e abbiamo ricominciato quello che si faceva prima, voglio dire, ha capito la gente così e ha ripreso il suo modo di fare voglio dire.
FC: Quindi non si ricorda tipo questi famosi tedeschi che stavano nella villa quando sono andati via?
DDC:Eh no, allora,
FC: No, così, chiedo.
DDC: Quello non lo ricordo ma quando fu quell’affare lì, che cominciarono e che sono andati via, insomma hanno liberato queste case che avevino occupato loro, insomma così. Quello non ricordo altro, ecco.
FC: E la vita quindi, non so, è ritornato tutto come era prima?
DDC: Eh insomma, piano piano, voglio dire.
FC: Cosa, si ricorda qualcosa in particolare?
DDC: Eh c’erano, c’era anche lì vicino alla casa nostra c’era venuti degli sfollati di Viareggio che poverini insomma cioè poi un po’ nelle città bombardavano ma insomma e dopo sono ritornati ognuno a casa sua voglio dire, piano piano insomma. Ora quanti giorni c’avranno messo non lo so ma insomma [laughs], il discorso così. E lì, questi lì che avevano ammazzato lì vicini poi allora li vennero a bruciare questi, questi sette che ammazzarono lì vicino a casa mia. Ci son venuti, io chi era non lo so, senz’altro gente che voglio dire, gente apposta per, son venuti e l’hanno perché piano piano s’erano, ecco così.
FC: Nessuno li aveva sepolti?
DDC: Sono stati bruciati. E poi quello che c’era successo poi [unclear], quello non me lo ricordo comunque. Ma quelli lì poverini.
EL: Nessuno, ti ha chiesto se li avevano sepolti. No.
FC: Non li avevano sepolti?
DDC: No, no, no, erano là, erano rimasti, no, perché lì, vennero presi perché non è che per esempio erano stati ste cose lì e poi il giorno dopo sono andati via. Allora sono venuti a prenderli e li han portarli via ma gente non so, del comune, chi c’è venuto quello non lo ricordo. E parte erino già un poco posati se l’han bruciati, quello non ricordo. Non lo ricordo bene, direi delle bugie. Non me lo ricordo a modo quella cosa lì.
FC: E lei, lei dopo la guerra le è capitato spesso di ripensare alla guerra?
DDC: Eh, viene spesso da ripensare! Voglio dire allora, ora no, ora sono passati già qualche anno no, ma sul primo così se ne riparlava tante volte. Se ne riparlava, oddio ma ti ricordi quello ma quell’altro ma come è successo, ecco. Quella cosa lì sì, quello me lo ricordo bene quel discorso lì che ne è stato riparlato parecchie volte e insomma, eh allora.
FC: Si parlava anche degli americani, degli inglesi, dei, dei?
DDC: Sì, ma quando son venuti loro che voglio dire hanno occupato il paese insomma anche loro ma era già tutto differente. Non era un’affare come lì al tempo dei tedeschi insomma no.
EL: E che vi hanno dato gli americani? Vi avevano portato delle cose, no. Che sono, delle coperte, le calze.
DDC: Le coperte c’erino, piu che altro le coperte.
EL: Sì, sì. Ma non anche le calze di nylon?
DDC: Ora io quelle non me le ricordo e ci stà che
EL: Che la nonna te le tirò via.
DDC: No, ma quelle lì un l’avevino portate loro.
EL: Ah.
DDC: No, no, no, quelle lì, le calze fine?
EL: Sì.
DDC: No, no, quelle lì è un passaggio della nonna, che ero già giovanetta a quell’ora sì. Ero pronta, andava alla messa, prima lei andava alla prima messa, perché c’era la prima la mattina presto e dopo noi invece ci si andava più tardi. Che succedeva? Succedeva che noi si stava a casa, c’era la mia sorella più grande e la su nonna, che lei era la più grande di tutti e c’avevimo le bestie, c’era la mucca, c’eran le pecore, c’era il maialino, avevimo di tutto e non ci mancava nulla, non ci mancava nulla [laughs]. E le persone più anziane andavano alla prima messa e noi invece ci piaceva di più andare all’ultima messa, che c’eran le undici. Allora, quando loro andavino via noi si facevi te fa quella cosa, te fà quell’altra, la nonna faceva le cose più pesanti e io invece quelle più, ma insomma, via te fà questo te fa quel. Era l’ora della messa, era l’ora della messa e ero sù in camera che, allora avevo le calze, le calze fine, no? Le calze fine e le avevo lasciate così sulla seggiola, come si fà così, di un salotto, scendo le scale, scendo le scale ma avevo il sottabito. Ma lei pensi che il sottabito, quei sottabiti di una volta, che poi la mia nonna era sarta, e le facevino, ma no quelle, quei, quello spallino fino così, piccino, sì quelle cosine grandi così, un pochettino scollate ma non troppo, così, quelli erino sottabiti che poi la mamma era, la nonna Ancilla era sarta e si faceva, se li faceva da sè insomma. Allora, io ero a prepararmi e avevo lasciato le calze, era sul primo che mi mettevo le calze fini e l’avevo lasciate in salotto così attraverso alla seggiola. Scendo le scale, ma ero in sottabito. Lei era giù in cucina. Io chiudo l’occhio e la vedo. Scendo le scale e lei in fondo alle scale. Te dove andresti in questa maniera qui? Sono andà a prendermi le cose, vedilo là, vedi, vedete perché si dava del voi, vedete mamma, è là sulla seggiola là in salotto. Vai, te le porto io le calze. Dio bono, ma son già qui, e che mi ci vuole ad andà a prender le calze là? Cammina! Va in camera, vergognosa! Ma santo cielo, ma che ho fatto di male? Va in camera, ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello! Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello con la, con i sottabiti fatti da lei perché era sarta la mi mamma, ma i sottabiti di una volta non se li scordi, eh. Avevino come minimo le spalle grandi così, qui quando era tanto era scollato qui, eh. Se mi vedeva mi fratello in sottabito. No, io chiudo l’occhi e vedo la mi mamma, vai, te le porto io le calze, dio bono, ma sono già qui, era in mezzo a scala che ci vol a piglià le, no! Ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello. Ci sarà stato, ragazzi, ora a parte tutto, ma allora nelle famiglie era così eh. Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello.
EL: Insomma le calze te le ha portate?
DDC: Sì, le calze me le portò però mi fece rimontare le scale e a un certo punto se no poteva venirmi. No ma seria perché te.
EL: Però le calze, però non bruciò le calze di nylon?
DDC: Le calze, quando, no, non le bruciò, le strappò, le strappò. E queste sarebbino le calze? Perché calze fini allora, avevimo le calze fini perché sennò si dovevino portà fine ma già più grossine c’erano quelle no fine fine come c’eran ora voglio dì perché ero già giovanetta mica avevimo quelle lì già un po’ più, capito? E l’avevo su questa seggiola in salotto ma quando lei le prese in mano le strappò, e queste sarebbino le calze? Era così, era così. E in sottabito mi poteva vedè mio fratello.
FC: E quanti anni aveva quando è successo questo?
DDC: Ora io con esattezza io non lo ricordo insommma con esattezza ma ero e po’, ma avevo incominciato a portare le calze fini. Avrò avuto senz’altro, non so, una quindicina d’anni, voglio dì, così. Mi poteva vedè mio fratello. Ora, dice, poteva, al limite poteva ma se mi vedeva mio fratello in sottabito. Allora era così. E allora nelle famiglie c’era questo rispetto qui. C’era, era così guarda e non potevi mica camminare e allora ma le calze fine. Ma scherzi davvero. M’ero permessa di comprarmi le calze fini [laughs].
FC: Quindi lei lavorava già all’epoca?
DDC: Eh?
FC: Lavorava?
DDC: Ma allora non si faceva, ora voglio dire non, lavoravo ma in casa ero sempre voglio dire, si faceva di tutto perché si faceva, anch’io ho cominciato presto anche a cucire perché anche la mamma era sarta. La mamma era sarta però insomma io dopo mi sono cosata sempre di più voglio dire. Ma tante cose si sapevino già fare da lei, perché per esempio e fai via, io faccio [unclear] un po’ m’è sempre garbato a cucire voglio dire. Ero, voglio dire, non ero, la nonna, la tu nonna era più robusta di me, io invece sono sempre stata più magra, invece ora sì sono più grassa, ma allora sono sempre stata più magrina. E la mi mamma mi diceva che le persone bionde, più delicate di quell’altre, te no, te sta tranquilla, te fà così, te fà così. Me diceva così.
FC: Non era d’accordo.
DDC: No! Era vero che io non avevo la forza perché la su nonna, quel che faceva la mi sorella, è una cosa, ma davvero eh.! Ma non è che non lo comandasse nessuno, lo faceva proprio spontaneamente da sè. Per esempio, i nostri, sia mi papà sia mi fratello sia il nonno avevino la falegnameria e non ci lavorava nessuno sul terreno. E noi il terreno che s’aveva si chiamava allopre si diceva allora, si chiamava vello per vangà, cosa per fà il solco per fà, per seminare per, perché oh tanto terreno si faceva di tutto, voglio dire, era così. Lei, la mi sorella, le la sapeva fà tutto. Quando era fatto la cosa più grossa di vangar anche la terra, lei faceva solchi, seminava La cosa, faceva tutto, tutto, la nonna faceva tutto. Ma io ero magrina, ero così che [laughs] un avevo la forza della mi sorella. Mi davo da fà perché volevo fà quel che faceva lei [laughs] sì perché quando siamo ragazzi e le impastava il pane, le faceva il pane, le, io non ho mai fatto il pane in casa mia.
FC: No?
DDC: Mai, non ho mai impastato il pane.
FC: E come mai?
DDC: Eeeh, non avevo la forza perché, eh, diceva la mamma, te sei troppo mingherlina, non puoi perché quando faceva il pane si faceva,
FC: Come facevano?
DDC: Lei faccia conto che si faceva una decina o dodici pani ma quelli lunghi così casalinghi eh. E ciavevimo , c’è sempre lassù alla casa paterna e si cosava questo, faceva questo pane la mi sorella che lei è na forza e io,
FC: A mano?
DDC: Sì, sì, sì, sì.
FC: O usavate qualche strumento?
DDC: No, no, no, no, tutto a mano eh, tutto a mano. Lei faceva, sapeva fà tutto la mi sorella. A fà tutto, davvero, e allora [unclear] e allora ma io siccome volevo fare quello che faceva lei perché visto quando siamo bimbette ma perché io non lo devo fà? E allora diceva la mi mamma, ma te non puoi, non hai la forza che ha lei. Perché la nonna era brava per fà quelle cose lì, era più robusta invece e mi diceva: ‘le persone bionde un han na forza così’. Ma che vuol dì na forza? Dicevo io, [laughs] dicevo che vuo dì. Io volevo fà quel che faceva mi sorella ma niente da fà, non lo potevo fà. Ma vedi te, sei più mingherlina, sei mingherlina, mi diceva e io ero arrabbiata, non volevo che mi dicesse così [laughs]. E siccome sia mio papà sia mio fratello sia voglio dire facevano i falegnami e anche per lavorare la terra perché c’è l’abbiamo ma, ce n’avevimo tanta, si chiamava le persone apposta per fare queste cose. Allora quando era a lavorare invece per fà il solco che la terra è bella sciolta e viene lavorata, ma lei, la mi sorella ci faceva il solco, seminava veloce e lo volevo fà anch’io. Io non ho mai impastato il pane, eh oh. Ma te, siccome sei più bionda, sei più mingherlina, vedi le gente bionde o n’han la forza che hanno quelle more, ma perché uno deve avè la forza [laughs], no me faceva. Hai visto quando siamo bimbette che vogliamo fà quel che fà quell’altro, lo vogliamo fà anche noi. È così.
FC: Va bene. Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro? Qualche altra cosa che le viene in mente sulla guerra?
DDC: Ma io non mi ricordo, non so. Le ho raccontato quel discorso lì che si dovette partire, andare lassù sopra Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, ci si portò, ci s’aveva le pecore, ci s’aveva quella roba eh, c’andò mi papà, voglio dire, ci si portò anche quelle lì, c’andò lei lassù sempre la mi sorella più grande che era insomma col mi papà lassù voglio dire. Quando erano qui erano a fare, che ve sò dì, avevamo fatto anche, avevamo, io no perché. L’ho detto, ero una bimbetta avevino fatto anche un coso, un rifugio nel campo lì sotto che si, entravino da una parte che c’era un poggetto alto così e qua c’era il campo. E di lì c’avevino fatto il coso entravino lì sotto però come facevino a stà continuamente?
FC: Com’era fatto questo rifugio, proprio?
DDC: Questo rifugio era fatto dentro come tipo una stanza e poi era tutto cosato con le cose di, con le tavole, con le tavole di legno. E lì dentro era come una stanza ma certo.
FC: Era scavata?
DDC: Eh certo! Era scavato sì.
FC: E quante persone ci stavano?
DDC: Eh ma quattro cinque persone perché era un bell’affare grande così eh. Non sempre ci potevino dormì perché insomma anche dormì così sottoterra in quella maniera lì. Fu così che poi era una cosa insomma e andarono a finire sopra Gombitelli dopo il mi papà insomma gente lì via.
FC: Ah, era per nascondersi?
DDC: Nascondersi perché facevano
FC: Gli uomini?
DDC: Eh certo!
FC: Quindi lei non c’è andata, non c’andava dentro?
DDC: No, no, no, noi no, solo gli uomini. Prima dormivano nel bosco perché c’abbiamo boschi vicini ma con le coperte dormire nel bosco insomma, e io la mattina quando m’hanno detto andava a portà, andava a portare da mangiare il caffè, voglio dire, oppure a mezzogiorno la minestra tutto quanto, che mi mettevo il sacchetto sotto la gonnella per portargli e loro dormivino nel bosco. Ma han fatto una vita. Eh. E tutti quelli lì vicini, voglio dire, di lì, lassù dove si stava lassù c’eravamo, e sette famiglie mi pare. E ogni famiglia c’era, c’avevino la persona maschio voglio dire e partivino, chi andava di lì, chi andava di là, e sul primo che facevino i rastrellamenti che noi ragazzi s’andava lassù in cima e si vedevino quando le macchine partivino per i rastrellamenti, via! Scappate! Scappate! Magari andavino via mezzi nudi, si vestivino per il mondo, davvero, e dopo cinque minuti arrivavino i tedeschi a fare cosa. E noi erimo sempre.
FC: Cosa dicevate, ai tedeschi?
DDC: Nulla noi, noi erimo bimbetti.
FC: E non vi chiedevano dove erano gli uomini?
DDC: No, voglio dire a noi bimbetti no, erimo, voglio dire.
FC: Non si ricorda?
DDC: Voglio dire ai grandi, magari alle donne, magari l’avran detto ma e mi dicevino quando, a delle volte mi dicevino, come dì, che erino andati alla guerra, che non c’erino a casa, così. Erino andati alla guerra, eh, oh! A quello lì che t’ho detto che nun ce la fece ad andar via che la su sorella entrò tra una materassa e l’altra, la su sorella a sedere e faceva a vista lì a dò la poppa alla bimba. A sedere, entrino i tedeschi [unclear] al mondo e lui era tra. Eppure ragazzi a raccontarlo non ci si crede, ci si scriverebbe davvero un libro. È vero, è vero!
FC: E quindi adesso, quello che pensa lei della guerra, è cambiato rispetto all’epoca? Cosa pensa adesso della guerra?
DDC: Ma ora io, a dir la verità, insomma io penso che ora son tanti, son passati tanti anni voglio dire,
FC: Le dico le emozioni.
DDC: Certamente quando ne parlo, voglio dire, per me è come rivivere quel momento eh, eh, oh! Ma io delle volte penso, mi viene pensato come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra con le pecore per andare a Gombitelli. Perché lì lassù dove si abita noi, alle capanne ci chiamino eccetera, scendi giù in paese, e poi s’attraversa la strada e si prende la strada che va sù, lì accanto alla scuola c’è una strada grande che va a finire a Gombitelli ma poi quando siamo a Gombitelli per andare al Ferrandino dove si portò noi le bestie, ce n’era, c’era da camminare un altro bel pezzo eh, da Gombitelli al Ferrandino. Eppure. E delle volte dico io, ma come, io non ricordo, ecco quella lì quante volte me lo sono domandato che non sono mai riuscita a capire come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra per andare lassù. Perché da lì, da dove si abita noi c’è da scendere giù dove c’è la chiesa lì al paese, a Montemagno e poi c’è da prendere la strada per andare a Gombitelli. Come si fece, come è stata fatta quella cosa lì, me lo sono domandato tante volte, non l’ho mai capita.
FC: Perché non se lo ricorda?
DDC: Non me lo ricordo. Non lo ricordo perché lì da tutte le parti c’erano i tedeschi [unclear] a Montemagno era pieno così di tedeschi eh. C’era lì davanti alla chiesa c’erano i, nel coso del piazzale davanti alla chiesa c’erino proprio le cose dei tedeschi. Lì dove c’era la, che ora c’è la, come si chiama la cosa lì che c’ha Oriano?
EL: Bottega.
DDC: La bottega là che ci vanno a mangià la gente là.
EL: Sì, sì.
DDC: Più che bottega.
EL: Sì, sì, Le Meraviglie.
DDC: Le Meraviglie. Lì c’era, anche lì c’erino tedeschi da tutte le parti. Allora non c’era, c’era questo coso vuoto che i padroni erano in America e lì occuparono tutto questi tedeschi. Avevino, ti ho detto, [unclear] tutte le carte che erino lì. E loro sapevino, come trovavi una casa vuota, sta tranquilla, non chiedevino il permesso a nessuno. E poi ammazzavino le bestie [laughs], trovavino da mangià. Eh beh, ce n’erano tanti di tedeschi a Montemagno, non so come mai.
EL: Perché era la via che andava a Lucca forse.
DDC: E poi, partigiani, partigiani, come avevino paura dei partigiani però.
FC: I tedeschi.
DDC: I tedeschi avevino paura, anche quando venivino in casa, che noi erimo bimbetti no, e ‘te partigiani, no? Partigiani! Partigiani!’ E noi si diceva: ‘No! No!’. Quello si sapeva anche se eravamo bimbetti di dì di no. Di dir di no dei partigiani.
FC: E aveva paura dei tedeschi?
DDC: Avevimo paura davvero dei tedeschi. Insomma anche lì da noi averci fatto delle cose lì, aver ammazzato quella gente lì voglio dire, anche lì li ho visti tutti eh insomma. E quando eravamo là, perché si doveva, avevano attaccato fogli anche a questa villa, avevino attaccato fogli alle porte che noi si doveva sfollare. Si doveva sfollare perché lì tiravino all’aria tutto, no. Che di lì si andò alla casa là al Meschino. S’andò alla casa la, lo sai no dov’è questa casa al Meschino? Ecco, la casa al Meschino che poi anche lì vennero i tedeschi allora come come ci trovarono là non si sa perché questa casa qui che dico io è la nel mezzo a vigneto e al bosco, ma lontano di lì dalla casa dove si stava noi. Eravamo sfollati tutti perché avevano attaccato fogli che avrebbero ammazzato tutti, di sfollare, di sfollare. Allora non si sapeva dove andare e si parte, si va tutti là a questa casa là nel bosco, ma è na casa grande e era su, era du piani, na casa sotto e sopra insomma e s’andò là. Ci portammo le cose più necessarie e s’andò là. La nonna invece non volle mai venire, è sempre stata a casa lì. Invece quando vennero là i tedeschi, che si misero tutti in fila, che si dovevino fucilare tutti, perché c’avevino scoperto che noi eravamo là e dicevino che eravamo partigiani. ‘Tutti partigiani! Partigiani! Partigiani!’ Ma poi c’erimo bimbetti, c’era lo zio Luigi che era più piccolino di me. Allora ci misero tutti lì in piazza davanti alla casa, non so se eravamo una trentina, sì, una trentina eravamo sì, allora io abbracciai mio fratello e lì tutti i tedeschi intorno col fucile puntato. Abbracciai lo zio Luigi e girai le spalle al tedesco perché secondo me, secondo me, ammazzavino me e ma, con le spalle, ma io Luigi lo salvavo, te pensa. E invece che successe? Successe, eravamo lì tutti pronti che loro pronti, che si sapeva che quella gente non perdonavino. Nel frattempo scende di lassù, perché noi eravamo così giù che c’era questa casa e poi c’era un vigneto su che andava un popolino su così. Da questo vigneto che c’era nel mezzo una bella cosa, stradina che veniva giù, vennero, incominciarono a venì tre o quattro uomini, di lassù ma vestiti normali, no tedeschi. Allora noi si dice, questi ragazzi, ‘Oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani’, e quei tedeschi che erano lì ebbero, meno male! Ebbero paura, invece di venire insù vicino perché il coso, c’era la strada che veniva giù così, questi tedeschi incominciarono a saltà poggio e piano giù per il bosco. E noi [laughs] e meno male, se no c’avevino messo tutti in fila, si dovevino essere fucilati.
FC: Come mai vi avevano messo in fila?
DDC: E perché noi erimo partigiani o c’erimo figlioli dei partigiani, perché erimo là a questa casa nel mezzo a un vigneto nel mezzo così, non eravamo lì più alle case nostre.
FC: Quindi erano bambini, donne?
DDC: Bambini e donne, bambini e donne. E persone anziane messe giù che su una sdraia che poverini un camminavino.
FC: E questi uomini qua che scendevano dal monte, chi erano?
DDC: E quie, no, io non ho mai capito chi erano questi uomini ma questi uomini quando furono così che scendevino giù questo, perché erano, noi erimo qui ma poi c’era questo, questa salita che non era lì vicina, era un bel pezzo di lassù venivan giù e si vedevino sti omini scendere giù vestiti popo’, e lì si incomincià a dì: ‘Oddio partigiani! Se dio vuole partigiani!’. Questi tedeschi saltà poggi e piano e andà per ingiù per il bosco, non s’è più visti dove andati a finì perché avevino paura anche loro dei partigiani [unclear]. E meno male, meno male, ci fu quell’affare lì sennò, erimo già belli e pronti lì. E io avevo abbracciato lo zio Luigi e m’ero, avevo girato le spalle io verso i tedeschi che avevino il fucile puntato e io, secondo me, lo salvavo il mio fratello più piccolino di me. Dissi, me m’ammazzino ma mio fratello no. E invece meno male, ma c’erimo in tanti lì eh [laughs] e insomma. Erino momenti brutti. Erano momenti brutti davvero.
FC: Va bene. Direi che, io la ringrazio perché c’ha raccontato delle cose bellissime e interessanti.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs] insomma.
FC: Sì, bellissime, insomma.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs], bellissime era meglio se non [unclear], era meglio se io n’avevo raccontà, oh, era meglio se n’avevo raccontato na barzelletta [laughs].
FC: Bellissime, nella prospettiva. Ci ha raccontato delle cose interessanti e molto utili, ecco, mettiamola così.
DDC: Sì e insomma così, poverina, quel che v’ho detto la verità perché è successo, voglio dì.
FC: No, no, certo, certo.
DDC: Ero bimbetta e è successo qualche anno fa, eh. È passato qualche giorno, insomma [laughs]. Però insomma grosso modo le cose quelle lì. Ora non mi posso essere ricordate le virgole, per l’amor di dio, però insomma. Così.
FC: Va bene. Grazie.
DDC: E così, eh. E questo era il paese lì a quell’ora.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Delia Del Corto
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Delia del Corto (b. 1932) remembers daily life in wartime Tuscany, living in a family of ten. Provides details on rural life, especially home bread making, and stresses the difficult coexistence with feared German troops. Mentions many anecdotes in the context of the Italian civil war: actions of the resistance, locals being strafed, round-ups, and the killing of 32 civilians as reprisal for the death of a German officer. Recollects the day she found herself under aircraft fire while she took sheep to pastures with her little brother. Describes the construction of a makeshift dug out in a field in which her father hid and recollects how she got caught in crossfire.
Creator
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Francesca Campani
Date
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2017-09-26
Format
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01:09:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Identifier
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ADelCortoD170926
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Coverage
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Civilian
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/77/743/ABianchiM170912.2.mp3
940260dfe1038700f8c517f3d4264697
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bianchi, Marisa
Marisa Bianchi
M Bianchi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marisa Bianchi who recollects her wartime experiences in Sesso and in the Reggio Emilia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-12
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bianchi, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FC: Questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Marisa Bianchi. L’intervistatore è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Sesso, provincia di Reggio Emilia, è il 12 settembre 2017. Possiamo cominciare. Allora, la prima domanda che ti faccio è cosa ti ricordi di quando eri piccola, cioè.
MB: Avevo otto anni allora, ero piccola davvero.
FC: Cosa faceva la tua famiglia? Dove vivevi? Avevi fratelli?
MB: Vivevamo sempre a Sesso, fratelli non ne ho perché c’ho una sorella.
FC: Ecco.
MB: Eravamo, stavamo vendemmiando, arriva Pippo e noi giù, tutti nel fosso, gaemo un fosso. Ha cominciato a mitragliare, ha tagliato tutte le gambe degli scaletti. Per fortuna che c’era la bonifica che ha riparato le schegge. Se non morivam tutti quanti, da bom. Eh ohi. E poi abbiamo avuto anche che na volta han preso, ste Pippo, la bonifica, sai c’eravamo la bonifica in fondo ai nostri campi, l’avevamo presa per la stazione, per la ferrovia che era dietro la casa dell’altro contadino. Han mollè na bomba, guarda, non ti dico, ah, è successo la malora, tutti i vetri crollati.
FC: Della vostra casa.
MB: Tutti, anche quelli dell’altro contadino, davvero c’era venuto un buco che l’era enorme.
FC: E voi dove vi eravate nascosti?
MB: Noi eravamo nascosti in casa, dove che possiamo nascosti? Non c’avevamo mica il rifugio o cose del genere.
FC: Non ce n’erano lì?
MB: No, in campagna cosa vuoi che sia. Mamma mia, Gesù, e poi noi abbiamo avuto i tedeschi in, sai che, tu a Sesso non ci sei mai stata. E’ dove abitavamo prima, adesso è un casino che non si capisce più niente, ma avevamo un bosco.
FC: Ah.
MB: E la sera erano tutti messi coi carri armati, le camionette, tutti sotto lì. E avevamo i comandanti che allora vivevano nella villa e i soldati vivevano su nel fienile. [unclear] sta mattina doveva fare il pane. Davano la roba a loro, eh. La farina, portavano tutto facevano presto loro! Andavano a casa dei contadini, prendevano quello che volevano. E star matene e sai come fa il pane che c’era la, daghe l’amleri in poche parole. E io che, ero già, avevo già la lingua lunga allora, volete il pane? Giù alla mattina alle cinque a gramolare, [unclear] pan. [unclear] E il [unclear] c’aiutavo io ma loro s’arrangiavano sai. No eh guarda, noi li abbiamo avuti per quaranta giorni però son stati perfetti eh, a posto. Solo un giorno che due hanno cominciato a litigare e a sparè in elta e il comandante le [unclear] li ha spediti tutt via, li ha spediti in guerra, al fron in poche parole.
FC: Ah.
MB: Se no guarda, è solo che dopo, quando sono partie il 24 di aprile che sono poi morti tutti al Po, perché loro credendo di essere al Po, di essere già fuori ma è mort tutt al Po, eh. Marino ha preso via la scala del fienile, guai a chi va su. Sono venuti i carabinieri, hann raccolto due ceste così di bombe a mano, proiettili, sai, loro dormivano su nel fienile.
FC: E non c’erano più però. Erano scappati.
MB: No, no, erano già andati.
FC: Il 24.
MB: Il, loro sono andati via il 24. Pensando che, di arrivare al Po e di essere già fuori. Invece i mort nel Po. Han detto, eh, perché ovviamente, al Po non ci sono stata comunque l’han detto. Fat na brutta fine. Però erano maledetti. Nel senso che loro andavano nel confronto degli altri. E serviva la carne, andavano a prendere dal contadino un vitello senza pagarlo. Lo uccidevano nel nostro prato, ed era pena quel giorno, ma guarda un po’ che roba. Noi non abbiamo mai fatto la fame perché c’hann sempre dato tutto. Io ho fatto la cresima che quelle fotografie lì le deve avere ancora tua madre, che una volta la rileghi e ci porto vi l’album perché mi ha promesso che me le stampava e non me le ha ancora stampate.
FC: Va bene.
MB: Fatto la cresima. Sai quante scatole di cioccolata? Loro avevano la cioccolata in scatola i tedeschi.
FC: Eh. E te le hanno date?
MB: Orche!
FC: Perché sapevano che avevi fatto la cresima.
MB: Che ho fatto la cresima, la cresima.
FC: E quindi loro.
MB: No, no, guarda, son stati buoni, buoni, mai successo niente. Solo un giorno sti due cretini han litigato, uno ha sparato in alto.
FC: E ce n’erano di partigiani lì intorno? Ti ricordi qualcosa?
MB: Ma io ho ott’ann, cosa vuoi che mi ricordi?
FC: Ah non lo so, magari.
MB: Mi ricordo che dicevano che si erano nascosti nei campi e me sai, a otto anni che cavolo vuoi che sapessi. Io mi ricordo quelli lì i tedeschi perché avevo sempre avu per ca’ per quaranta giorni. Se no i partigiani sapevo che c’erano però a Sess non so mia se n’era, se c’erano a Sesso proprio, mah non lo so, quello non lo so.
FC: Ma, ehm, ti chiedo questa cosa qua. Ti ricordi quando è iniziata la guerra proprio? Cioè prima non c’era la guerra e dopo è iniziata.
MB: E dopo c’era la guerra.
FC: Ti ricordi quel momento lì? Cosa facevi? Andavi a scuola?
MB: Andavo a scuola, sì, sì.
FC: Dove andavi a scuola?
MB: Allora, avevano occupato la scuola. Allora mio padre e degli altri papà han preso su in soffitta in casa di un contadino, ci si portava la mattina con due pezzi di legno per uno per scaldarsi. E così che noi non abbiamo perso l’anno, hai capito? E quelli che non sono venuti hanno perso l’anno. Nella scuola con due pezzi di legno per uno, poi c’erano una di quelle stufette sai la Becchi come si chiamavano sì, la Becchi e noi li avevamo in casa la Becchi. C’erano nelle camere ve’. Era la villa padronale, c’era una nella camera della nonna, una, meno che nella mia e di tua madre. Alla mattina, se ti alzavi la notte a far la pipì, era ghiacciata, ve’. Era, perché noi avevamo proprio la camera a nord. Di andare a dormire col prete poi tiravi via, andavi sotto. Invece nella camera della nonna e quella della Iona c’era la Necchi, la Becchi, quelle stufette sai a piani.
FC: E a scuola parlavate della guerra?
MB: Oh, chi si ricorda.
FC: Non ti ricordi?
MB: Non mi ricordo.
FC: E se, non so.
MB: Mi ricordo solo che mi portava il papà con la bicicletta in canna, e che c’era sta borsa con due pezzi di legno da portare per scaldarci lassù perché eravamo su in soffitta. Però la guerra chi se la ricorda più. Sai, a parte che ero piccola, perché è finita la guerra che nel ’40?, ‘45, mi sono del ‘36, fa un po’ te i cunt, avevo nove anni.
Fc: Eh beh, però mi stai raccontando delle cose.
MB: Sì, ho capito, però certe cose non te le ricordi. Per esempio nella notte, la notte del 23-24, c’hann detto i tedeschi: ‘andate via, in mezzo alla campagna!’. Siamo andati a casa di un contadino, noi e tutta la famiglia intorno. Alla mattina il nonno voleva andare a vedere perché sai c’era le mucche da mungere così. Invece Nino, il figlio della Wilma, ha detto ci vado io perché vado più svelto a correre. L’hanno ucciso poco distante da casa.
FC: Chi l’ha ucciso?
MB: I tedeschi e i fascisti di Sesso.
Fc: Ah ecco.
MB: Sì, è il 24 aprile. E Il 25 ghe stè la liberazion, e lui avev disdott ann. Diciotto anni aveva. A fam, no zio ci vado io che corro corro più veloce, faccio prima ad andare a vedere cosa c’è. Loro erano già partiti, tutti quanti, le rivè a un poc distan da ca non so quanto. La casa più vicino l’hanno visto quando l’hanno ucciso. L’hann fatto mettere in ginocchio e [mimics shooting noise], gli hann sparè. E pensa che c’era uno di Sesso, che sua figlia abita sopra tua mamma, nell’attico. E una volta ha trovato la mamma di quella ragazza lì, lei è già morta perché aveva un tumore al seno, e ora ci siamo trovati lì giù, io c’ho chiesto delle sue figlie perché andavamo a scuola assieme con una cosa. La disi: ‘cosa vuoi che ti dica?’, la disi: ’è proprio vero’, la dis che le malefatte dei vecchi si sono rivoltate contro i figli. C’era morto già la figlia lì, morto il figlio con un tumore,
FC: Mamma mia.
MB: Sì, proprio mamma mia.
FC: Ehm, volevo provare a richiederti ancora se ti ricordi altre volte che è venuto Pippo, cioè cosa si diceva di Pippo?
MB: Quando arrivava Pippo tutti sparivano, sparivano tutti quanti.
FC: Veniva tutti i giorni?
MB: Tutti i giorni passeva su ma tanta [unclear] ciapè Pippo, ti dico. Sì, sì, guarda che una volta, non so della via, ha buttato delle bombe dove, e a noi ci sono crollati tutti i vetri un’altra volta. C’era la Lidia, la figlia della Ione, la sorella della Mirella, aveva avuto la difterite ed era già in convalescenza, lo spavento, la paura, l’è morta sul colpo. Aveva cinque anni, sì. Sai che solo la Mirella, ce n’erano già morti due, e tre con la Lidia ne g’avu quattre. Perché una era nata quando sono nata io, io sono nata la mattina e lei era nata al pomeriggio di sette mesi solo che in quei tempi lì! E sì, Pippo l’era maledetto eh. Non ti so dire se era inglese o se era americano, ste Pippo.
FC: E tu lo sapevi perché faceva così?
MB: Ma cosa pe de che, faceva, passava e mitragliava.
FC: Cosa pensavi di Pippo?
MB: Ciapa tante [unclear], ho pase tante di quelle paure a noi, sai c’avevamo il portico prima della stalla e c’eran le arcate. Le avevamo riempite tutte di paglia, le balle sai. L’ha fat na mitraglieta, per fortuna che non hanno preso fuoco. Aveva riempito le balle di proiettili. E quand [unclear] sai Marino le apriva poi dopo, poi si usavano, no, saltavano fora come i cosi.
FC: I proiettili.
MB: Sì. Che lur sa chissà cosa si credeva che fossero, c’era, sai nelle arcate tutte ste balle di paglia. Bel Pippo!
FC: E quindi cosa, cosa facevate quando arrivava Pippo?
MB: Eh, ci si nascondeva dove si poteva.
FC: E ti avevano spiegato cosa fare?
MB: Si andava in cantina, si scendeva nei posti più chiusi. Non c’era un rifugio, non c’era niente e non. E infatti i tedeschi avevano messo tutte le balle di, di paglia contro le finestre dentro per paura che Pippo passasse e mitragliasse. E la mess tutte le balle di paglia.
FC: E passava di giorno o di notte Pippo?
MB: Passava a qualunque orario, non c’era preoccuparsi, mattina, pomeriggio, notte.
FC: Tutti i momenti.
MB: E la notte, caro mio, si metteva la luce si metteva sopra perchè sta su un po’ unita perché le vedeva lui quelle luci accese di notte. C’era così, la vita là di quei tempi lì.
FC: E quando stavate nascosti, no?
Mb: Eh.
FC: Cosa facevate? Come passavate il tempo?
MB: A parlare.
FC: Parlare. Anche te.
MB: Sì eh.
FC: E c’erano altri bimbi?
MB: Sì, c’era altri bimbi, quelli di quella signora che abitava nel nostro cortile, ma sì ma si univa tutti eh. Mamma mia.
FC: E facevate dei giochi per distrarvi?
MB: No, no, no, stavem tut là, a tremare dalla paura perché.
FC: Avevate paura?
MB: Ah Madonna, se avevamo paura. Perché aveva fatto, buttato ste bombe nel prato di quell’altra famiglia che aveva preso la ferrovia per la bonifica. [unclear] un buso enorme. E sai, se ti buttano una così sulla casa, [makes a whistling sound]. Ma quella volta lì, quella mitragliata degli scaletti, tut dentro al foss.
FC: Eravate tutti a vendemmiare.
MB: Tutti a vendemmiare eravamo.
FC: E come avete fatto a capire che era.
MB: Allora, sintu arriver e allora giù, tutti nel fosso.
FC: Tutti nel fosso.
MB: E lui ha cominciato a mitragliare, a tagliare tutte le gambe degli scaletti. E per fortuna che poi dopo le schegge si sono fermate contro il coso della bonifica perché noi eravamo più bassi e la bonifica era più alta. Si fermedi tutti là, se no. E per fortuna che nel fosso non c’era acqua, perché sai era uno di quei fossi che si riempivano d’acqua, eravamo in settembre. L’acqua non c’era più, ma che usavano a annaffiare tutti i campi, tutti i cosi. Guarda che l’altro giorno venivo da casa da Reggio con Rico e [unclear], Rico, ti ricordi te, ma le e fa Rico, hai ancora in mente? Oh, se l’ho ancora in mente, porca miseria, altroché. La paura!
FC: Quella storia qua.
MB: Sì, quella storia lì della vendemmia e degli scaletti. E dopo [unclear] fer tutti i gambe nuve di scalette eh. Quelle cose lì, se, adesso non lo so ma se le ricordava anche tua mamma, tua nonna, la Laura.
FC: E tu te lo ricordi cosa faceva la Laura? Cosa, te la ricordi la Laura a quei tempi lì?
MB: La Laura aveva dodici anni più di me sicché lei aveva già più di vent’anni.
FC: E anche lei si nascondeva dove andavi tu?
MB: Anche lei. Sì, no, quando arrivava Pippo erano tutti unì, nelle cantine, nei posti, chissà, forse si pensava che fossero più sicuri, mah. Meno che nelle stalle perché le stalle sai eh, sono tutte esterne e ci si andava nelle cantine perché erano in mezzo alla casa, insomma, erano più. Beh sì, i tedeschi hanno proprio così.
FC: E i fascisti invece, cioè, ce ne giravano un po’? Li hai conosciuti,
MB: I fascisti erano schifosi.
FC: Te li ricordi?
MB: Sì che me li ricordo. Noi avevamo il cortile che guardava dritto alla cooperativa di Sesso. Noi sentivamo gli urli di quelli che torturavano, i fascisti.
FC: E cosa facevate, niente?
MB: Te fa [unclear]? Te scoltè o ti tappavi le orecchie. C’è uno che c’hann levato proprio tutte le unghie, tutti gli urli e poi l’hann stirato.
FC: Col ferro.
MB: Sì, col ferro. In cooperativa a Sesso.
FC: Tu sapevi, ti, tu cosa pensavi quando eri piccola di queste cose qua? Cioè, cosa.
MB: Che erano schifose.
FC: Sapevi che era, capivi perché c’era questa guerra, come funzionava la guerra?
MB: Capivi, capivi che c’era la guerra e basta.
FC: Nessuno ti aveva spiegato?
MB: No, neanche a scuola.
FC: Neanche a scuola. Non se ne parlava.
MBV: Eh, sì, sì! Noi sì, sentivamo urlare, gli urli, sai te tira via le unghie. Poi l’hann stirato bene poverino. Poi dopo sono andati nel prato, di quelli che ghe hann buttea la bomba. Ne hanno ucciso diciotto.
FC: Nello stesso posto dove era caduta la bomba?
MB: Sì, pochino più spostati ma i hann mazzè tutt.
FC: Perché?
MB: Erano partigiani proprio.
FC: Erano partigiani.
Mb: Tutti Manfredi, Miselli, tutti.
FC: E questo aereo che ha sganciato questa bomba, no?
MB: Era Pippo.
FC: Era Pippo, ma ne ha sganciate delle altre di bombe?
MB: Ne ha sganciate, non so dove, più in un altro posto ma sa sgancià solo quella lè.
FC: Solo una.
MB: Solo una. Mitragliet, quante mitragliet non so quante ne ha fatte, però una bomba l’ha butta sol quella lè. Finì la guerra dopo sono andati a riempire il buco, sai, tutti i contadini si sono uniti con cariole, con badili per riempire ste bus chel so mia quant temp e g’hann mess. Sì, n’è bella storia l’è quella li va’. Davvero eh. Noi al 25 aprile eravamo tutti nella curva di Sesso, sai, quando c’è la curva lì e g’era la co, la come si chiama, la bilancia quel che ci davano i carri a pesare, e riveva i american, venivano tutti da Cadelbosco. Insomma per noi venivano da Cadelbosco, poi non so da dove venissero. Comunque, mamma mia.
FC: E cosa successe il 25 Aprile?
MB: Niente, tutti a batterci le mani, contenti, perché eran sparì i tedeschi e ghe iera i americani.
FC: E gli americani cosa facevano?
MB: Niente, andavano, sono andati tutti a Reggio.
FC: Ah, sono solo passati.
MB: Sono solo passati.
FC: Non si sono fermati?
MB: No, no, no, no. Sono solo passati. Gli americani sono solo passati poi si sono fermati a Reggio. Si sono fermati a Reggio ma un giorno o due, poi sono proseguiti per Modena, Bologna, tutt.
FC: E quindi dopo che sono andati via i tedeschi dalla casa,
MB: Sì, sì.
FC: Voi siete rimasti lì?
MB: Sì, sì, noi siamo rimasti lì.
Fc: E cosa, come è funzionato il dopo? Cioè.
Mb: Eh, dopo ha ripreso la vita di prima di, che scoppiasse la guerra. Noi siamo rimasti nella villa perché eravamo nella casa vecchia. La padrona, lei è andà da stè a res, e noi avevamo preso la villa. C’era quattro camere da letto. Eran me, tua mamma e la Mirella, che dormivamo nella camera più fredda. E poi c’era la nonna e Marino in un’altra e l’altra l’aveva affittata a due sposini che erano poi i figli di quelli poi che erano venuti ad abitare nella casa vecchia. Poi anche lì si è ripreso la vita di prima.
FC: Tu hai ripreso ad andare a scuola?
MB: Eh sì, dopo a scuole s’è liberede. Allora ti voglio chiedere se sei fidanzata?
FC: No. [laughs] No, vedi che non è qua.
MB: Ah non, ah avevo sbagliato dito.
FC: Sì, sì, sì. Bene, allora, c’è qualcos’altro che ti viene in mente della guerra, qualcosa che mi vuoi raccontare?
MB: No, non mi
FC: Qualche emozione? Qualche, non so, qualche episodio legato, non so, a degli amici?
MB: No, sai com’è, eravamo.
FC: A cosa trovavate da mangiare?
MB: Ah noi, noi non abbiamo mai fatto la fame, no. Sai, i contadini non hanno mai fatto la fame. I contadini c’avevano tutto, i polli, conigli, c’avevamo tutte le uova. Fatto la fame erano quelli che. Guarda che hanno ucciso un ragazzo, ecco, quello, un ragazzo che andava a lavorare alla Reggiane allora. Era un fratello di una mia amica. Aveva sotto il braccio, aveva una mela e un cono, un pezzo di pane, era il suo pranzo. L’han sparè perché [unclear] gli una bomba sotto la braccio.
FC: E dove gli hanno sparato?
MB: A Sesso.
FC: Chi?
MB: I tedeschi.
FC: Così?
MB: Era il suo, il suo pranzo era, una mela e un pezzo di pane.
FC: Andava verso le Reggiane.
MB: Andava verso le Reggiane.
FC: Prima che le bombardassero quindi.
MB: [unclear]
FC: Quindi tu i bombardamenti che ci sono stati a Reggio di grossi non te li ricordi?
MB: No, non me li ricordo quelli lì, no.
FC: Non ne hai neanche sentito parlare, all’epoca?
MB: No, proprio no.
FC: Era proprio distante.
MB: Noi abitavamo a Sesso, sapevi quello che succedeva a Sesso. Fuori.
FC: Ah, beh, sì.
MB: So che hanno bombardato Reggio però non. Insomma, noi eravamo troppo lontani da Reggio. Hanno ucciso altre persone sull’argine del Crostolo, che andavano a lavorare anche loro a Reggio e facevano l’argine del Crostolo perché eran fuori nella via principale che [unclear] e li han ammassè sull’argine del Crostolo.
FC: Sempre i tedeschi.
MB: Sì. I fascisti hanno ucciso quegli altri quattro lungo la nostra strada. Facevi la curva e li hanno uccisi lì [unclear] la mateina.
FC: C’era la nonna che mi ricordo che mi diceva che a un certo punto c’era un morto. Avevano trovato un morto. Tu non te la ricordi questa cosa qua? Che in un fosso, in un angolo, da qualche parte, a Sesso hanno trovato sto morto, questa cosa non te la ricordi.
MB: Non me lo ricordo. Mi ricordo Nino, figlio della Wilma, il fratello di Enrico, che l’hann trovato in un fosso, in mezzo alla campagna, che l’hann massè lì. Disdott ann.
FC: Sarà quello lì.
Mb: Però altri non mi ricordo. Sai poi sono passati tanti anni che poi le cose.
FC: No, no, ma va bene. A noi, a me interessa sapere cosa ti ricordi. Cioè, non.
MB: Sì, no, ho capito ma certe cose poi dopo ti passano dalla mente, non te le ricordi più.
FC: Sì, sì, lo so.
MB: E’ passè per la miseria, sessantacinq’ann, ottant’ann, eh.
FC: Eh!
MB: Ti ricordi quello che hai vissuto in casa tua, avevi vissuto intorno, hai capito?
FC: Eh, quello, quello, quello a me interessa. Sì.
MB: Mamma mia.
FC: E tua mamma? Non ne hai parlato di lei? Come,
MB: Chi?
FC: La mamma.
MB: Ah, mia mamma? Ah, mia mamma era addetta al forno lei. Faceva.
FC: Era addetta al forno.
MB: Al forno, [unclear] pan per i tedeschi.
FC: E anche prima quindi lei faceva il pane spesso.
MB: Sì, noi l’abbiamo sempre fatto in casa il pane. Mi e me sorell [unclear] la mattena, una [unclear] gramler, eh sai,
Fc: Cosa vuol dire esattamente gramlere?
MB: Allora, c’è un’affare lungo così. C’è un’asta che lì ci va, ci va, perché alla sera lo mettono nella malia, poi lo mettono con il coso, mamma mia come si chiama, aiutami te,
FC: Il lievito.
MB: Il lievito. La farina, lo impastano, poi lo lasciano lì tutta la notte, poi la mattina lo prendono, poi lo mettono sotto a ste aste. Poi ce n’era, andava su poi giù veniva un bastone c’erano due maniglie e lì lo gramolavi. Ciameva gramlera.
Fc: Lo schiacciavi.
MB: Schiacciavi e mia madre era lì che lo girava, lo rigirava.
FC: Ah, lo rimpastava e dopo.
MB: Sì, sì, lo rimpastava tutto.
FC: Ah.
MB: Poi dopo c’era da fare il pane. Poi dopo che aveva finito di fare, di aver cotto il pane, facevamo il gnocco.
FC: Ah.
MB: Col bastone, bei [unclear] di rame.
FC: Ah. Col lardo?
MB: Col lardo, eh. E veniva buono, eh.
FC: [laughs]
MB: Quello me lo ricordo.
FC: Quello sì, eh.
MB: Sì.
FC: Eh. Ma non c’era, visto che voi stavate bene, insomma, che avevate da mangiare, non c’era gente che veniva lì e vi chiedeva da mangiare? Non c’era qualche sfollato?
MB: Ma noi. Eh, ce li avevamo gli sfollati.
FC: Ah, raccontami un po’ degli sfollati.
MB: Eh, gli sfollati non hanno mai patì fame perché casa dei Bianchi, non era problema. Avevamo la.
FC: Da dove venivano questi sfollati?
MB: Da Reggio.
FC: Da Reggio. E cosa dicevano loro?
MB: Che cosa vuoi che dicessero?
FC: Come erano? Chi erano? Grandi? Vecchi? Piccoli?
MB: No, no, non avevano, no, non erano vecchi perché c’era un signore che aveva un bambino piccolo, quel ga avu du, tre anni. Era coi parenti, ve’! Non eran, parenti della nonna. Stavano, dormivano nel garage.
FC: Dormivano nel garage. Quindi erano solo due?
MB: Marito e moglie con due bambini.
FC: Ah. E quanto tempo sono stati lì?
MB: Ah, fino alla fine della guerra.
Fc: Da quando, te lo ricordi?
MB: Ah, non me lo ricordo. Sono venuti a chiedere se c’era ospitalità, allora li hann messi lì.
FC: E quindi il bimbo piccolo più o meno aveva la tua età, o era più piccolo?
MB: No, era più piccolo di me.
FC: Era piccolino, piccolino. Ah, ok, ok.
MB: Sì, aveva due o tre anni, era piccolino. Invece la figlia, la figlia era più grande, forse la figlia avrà avuto qualche anno in meno di me. Comunque, ste [unclear] fin la fin de la guerra.
FC: Non ti ricordi se facevate dei giochi insieme, quali tipi di giochi facevi?
MB: Facevano la settimana, nascondino, tutte quelle cose lì. Perché poi sai non c’era tanto da giocare ve’, perché abbiamo avuto tanto tempo i tedeschi in cortile.
FC: I tedeschi non vi facevano giocare?
MB: Noi ci stavamo alla larga intanto. Perché per quanto non fossero gentili e carini, ie fem paura. E poi, ghe sempre Pippo sopra la testa.
FC: E quindi andavate a nascondervi.
MB: [unclear], mamma mia Pippo! Se avesse preso metà deigli accidenti [unclear]. Ma non so se era inglese o se era americano quel Pippo lì!
FC: Però sapevi che era uno buono o era uno cattivo? Cioè,
MB: Chi? Pippo?
FC: Pippo.
MB: L’era cattiv!
FC: Era cattivo.
MB: Perché dove si trovava buttava giù, mitragliava, la malora!
FC: Eh, però lo sai che gli inglesi e gli americani in teoria erano quelli buoni.
MB: In teoria non te lo so dire.
FC: No?
MB: Non te lo so dire.
FC: Erano i tedeschi quelli cattivi.
MB: Non so dire se era tedesco o se era inglese o americano. So che’l mitraglieva, butteva le bombe. Quando è crollato i vetri, che è morto pure la Lidia non so se è stato verso Verona, o più in qua di Verona, crolle, e ha bombardato proprio. [unclear] buttà zò una bomba un bel po’. E’ crollà tutti i vetri, lei dalla paura che ha avuto è ndeda. Era già in convalescenza. E ha avuto la difterite. [unclear] adesso eh. Aspetta che vado ad aprire un po’ il coso anche perché c’abbiamo ste zanzariere. E non passa l’aria.
FC: Va bene, io, intanto guarda, finiamo l’intervista perché secondo me se non ti, ormai non ti ricordi più niente.
MB: Ormai non ricordo più niente. No va bene, sai, caro mio.
FC: Va bene così.
MB: Ero piccola io.
FC: Hai detto delle cose interessanti comunque. Va bene. Va bene. Grazie mille allora.
MB: Niente. Grazie di che cosa? Sono cose di quelle cose che a rivangarli ti vengono in mente ancora, capisci?
FC: E certo, è per quello infatti che, funziona così l’intervista. Quindi questa cosa, ti ricordi ancora quelle sensazioni lì?
MB: Sì.
FC. Te li ricordi come se.
MB: Sì, sì, come se fosse successo oggi, o ieri. Mi ricordo poi quelle degli scaletti. Ti dico che l’altro giorno venivo a casa da Reggio con Rico. Allora gli dico, Rico ti ricordi quando eravamo a vendemmiare a dis, fa lo te lo ricordi ancora? La miseria, se me lo ricordo ancora. Sì, sì altro ché se me lo ricordo. E l’episodio che mi è rimasto più in mente capisci, che e quello lì di avere i tedeschi per quaranta giorni nel cortile. E nonostante che non fossero gentili, guarda che venivano, uccidevano il bestiame, ci portavano sempre la carne in casa, ve’. E che pena. Si guarda che un contadino lavora tutto l’anno poi van là e prendon su vitelli, prendon su una mucca, per mangiare loro non chiedevano il permesso, sai! E gnanca pagheve il [unclear].
FC: Però ne davano un po’ anche a voi.
MB: Sì, sì, sempre.
FC: E sai perché?
MB: Non so, si vede siamo loro ospiti e insomma. C’era poi, avevano il calzolaio, il sarto. Il calzolaio soleva scarpi a tutt, anche a noi.
FC: Tra i tedeschi? C’erano il calzolaio, il sarto.
MB: Il sarto, sì, sì.
FC: E faceva.
MB: Eh sì, ci solava le scarpe a tutti [laughs], sì, sì.
FC: Ah. Vedi. E c’erano altre figure tipo quelle.
MB: No, non mi ricordo, c’era, faceva da mangiare
FC: Eh, c’era un cuoco?
MB: C’era un cuoco.
FC: Quindi cucinavano loro per, loro?
MB: Sì, sì, cucinavano loro.
FC: Voi facevate solo il pane.
MB: Noi facevamo solo il pane. La prima, mi ricordo sempre che la prima volta che abbiam tirato fuori il pane, sai, il pane caldo, il profumo, venivano davanti ai vetri, mammi, mammi, chiamavano mammi. E allora dopo loro l’han chiesto, i capi l’han chiesto e me go det: ‘sì, ma vi alzate voi alla mattina a venire a gramler’, perché [unclear] assieme, lui si faceva il pane ogni otto giorni.
FC: Avevate il lievito, quello che.
MB: Ah, non te lo so dire che lievito che c’era.
FC: Quello che si teneva lì e poi lo rimescolavi con la farina e poi lo tenevi da parte.
MB: Sì, sì, sì, da parte, prendevi una madia , se c’era una madia che dentro era vuota, c’era quello che si faceva il pane, si impastava il pane.
FC: Ma che pane era? Era bianco o era scuro?
MB: No, era bianco, era buono. Altro che il pane d’adesso. E avevamo imparato anche a fare il pane, ve’. Con le manine. Adesso non sarei neanche più capace perché ciò questo e questo che sono dita a scatto.
FC: Ah, eh vabbè.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marisa Bianchi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Marisa Bianchi remembers her wartime years at Sesso, a rural hamlet in the Reggio Emilia province. Stresses the abundance of locally farmed food and emphasises how billeted German troops were friendly and supportive, even if she and her family had to work for them. Recalls "Pippo" coming over every day at the same time. Curses it for the fear it caused and describes two episodes connected with its menacing presence: being machine-gunned while working and the sight of her house under attack, an incident in which a relative died as the consequence of emotional shock. Explains her revulsion of Fascists, feared for their brutality and recollects the killing of her cousin on the last day of war. Describes wartime episodes: Fascists executing four partisans and torturing suspects; Germans shooting people on the Crostolo bank; a young worker being shot by mistake for carrying a bundle mistaken for a bomb. Recalls providing accommodation to evacuees from Reggio Emilia and the widespread enthusiasm at the end of the war.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-12
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Francesca Campani
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABianchiM170912
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Reggio Emilia
Format
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00:33:09 audio recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1175/11744/ATyrellLR150929.1.mp3
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Title
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Tyrell, Leonard Ralph
L R Tyrell
Description
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An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Leonard Ralph Tyrell (1602785, 163718 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 207 and 44 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-09-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Tyrell, LR
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Transcription
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GC: Good afternoon, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Gemma Clapton. Interviewee is Flight Lieutenant Leonard Ralph Tyrell on the 29th of September 2015 at Great Baddow in Essex. Tell me a little bit about how you joined the RAF please.
LRT: Well, as a young boy, I was always keen on aircraft and aircraft books. So when the air training corps was first formed in ‘41, I decided that that would be for me. So I joined the air cadets as a springboard to ultimately volunteering for aircrew duties in the Royal Air Force. So, after basic training, it was in December ’41 when I had my RAF medical and I was given the all clear on that one and about a month later I had three days at RAF Oxford for attestation. This was intelligent tests, education tests and another stiff medical including blowing up a tube of mercury for at least sixty seconds. Then when the three days were over, the sergeant said to us: “Well gentlemen, I got good news and bad news. Good news, you’ve all passed, the bad news, we don’t want you yet. So we are gonna place you on deferred service.” So, it was about six months later, on the, my mother came into where I was working in the town and said, here you are, here’s your travel warrant, you’re going to join the Royal Air Force next week and that was in July ‘42. So after some basic training at St John’s Wood and then the toughening up course in RAF Ludlow, which was a tented camp with latrines and field kitchens, but it did get us feeling very fit and healthy and in of course the next course was Initial Training Wing at Stratford-Upon-Avon. That was a three months course, when you passed out, you became a leading aircraftsman, I was quite pleased with that, I used to walk down the town showing me propeller on me sleeve and I kept that rank until later on, when I found myself going by an ocean-going liner to Canada under the PNB scheme. We landed at Halifax after being escorted by Canadian corvettes about a hundred miles out because we flew, we sailed across the Atlantic unescorted but we zigzagged all the way to avoid the U-boats. To cut a long story short, after a period of time at Moncton which was a personnel depot, I found myself at number 31 bombing and gunnery school at Picton, not far from Toronto. That was a three months course, in which case we’d done bombing from an Anson aircraft, and air gunnery from a Bolingbroke, which was a Canadian version of the Bristol Blenheim. So we passed that test and then we went on for a long journey to Portage La Prairie, which is the number 7 air observer school. This was basically a navigation course, but the thing is when we were flying Anson aircraft and if you sat next to the pilot, it was your job to wind up the undercarriage and lower the undercarriage and believe you me, it was a hundred and forty seven turns to get a green light and a hundred and forty seven turns to get a red light. So we tried to avoid sitting next to the pilot but I used to get Joe for that [laughs]. Anyway, the course went through very well, we were said that on this course of nineteen cadets, the top six would get automatically commissioned, I thought, well, I will have a go at that. So, when the course was over, there I was in the top six, and I had become, from a leading aircraftsman to a pilot officer, the lowest rank in the commissioned rank of the Royal Air Force and said goodbyes to everybody in Canada. Canada and its people were very hospitable and it’s one of the best years of my life. [unclear] I’ll never forget it, the Canadian people were brilliant. I did manage to get to Niagara Falls on a hitchhike, so I’ve been to Niagara and there’s a rainbow bridge across the river there and there’s a white line right in the middle and one line on one side is the United States and on the other side is Canada. So I’ve got a picture of myself with one foot in one country and the other foot in Canada, so that’s there for all records [laughs]. But, so we sailed back to England and landing at Southampton again unescorted but this time it was on the Royal Mail ship Andes, a very fast boat but I was glad to see land again because the winter weather in the Atlantic is quite breezy to say the least. But after that we were sent to Harrogate for kitting out and the next port of call was advanced flying unit near Halfpenny Green near Wolverhampton. Passed that one okay. And then we went to number 17 OTU at Silverstone, which is today the home of the British Grand Prix. And this was a aerodrome full of Wellington Bombers and on one occasion we were told to assemble in the rather large hangar, the door was shut, they said, right, now you sort yourselves out into crews of six, cause the Wellington carried six, we managed to sort ourselves out. I remember the pilot come over to me, a blonde chap with an Errol Flynn moustache and a firm handshake, he said, would you like to fly with me? My reply, was, why not? And that was the beginning of a long and faithful friendship. We then bumped into a navigator who looked lost and I said, come and join us and then there was two gunners and a wireless operator on their own, we grabbed those three and we became what was called then the Howard crew, six of us, we met as strangers but ultimately we would be flying as brothers. So we’d done the OTU course, which included navigation, bombing, fighter affiliation and so on and so forth. And the next step was to go to number 1660 a heavy conversion unit, transferring from twin engine planes to four engined Stirling aircraft and this is where we picked up the seventh member of the crew, a flight engineer, because the pilot couldn’t cope with doing all the operations in the cockpit on his own and in any case the engineer was responsible for transferring fuel from one tank to another during the aircraft’s flight. So we joined up forces there and then after passing out the course, we got commanded on our bombing so much so that they gave us a forty eight hour pass for aircrew bombing and rather dire conditions. So, I was quite a popular member of the crew for occasion. Next step was to got to RAF Syerston near Nottingham for Lanc Finishing School, number 5 Lanc Finishing School, got to know the Lancaster very well inside and out, and once that was all over, we were then posted to number 207 Squadron in Lincolnshire, which as people know, is Bomber Command country. And there the life started to change quite dramatically inasmuch that war was only a few hours flying away. So our first operation was the Dortmund-Ems canal, it happened to be a daylight raid, and I could see the Pathfinder’s flares down below and that was successful and then it was a question of adapting to squadron life, flying and sleeping and having an odd pint now and then and but always with the crew. We were a mixed crew, three were officers and four NCOs but that didn’t make any difference, we were all called by our Christian names at any rate. So but, in spite of the casualties, that didn’t deter us from carrying out our duties and I look back with pride at what the crew achieved and we managed to come through it all. I have to tell you that when we entered the aircraft as seven young men, average age is about twenty one, there it was eighth member of the crew walking with us unseen and unsung and his name was fear. Cause there is always a fear that you might get shot down or wounded or burnt or taken prisoner or even that ultimate sacrifice, but I believed in God and before I took off, I used to go up to the front of the aircraft and say a little prayer: “Dear God, please take care of us, during the coming perils of the night.” And I think he did. And so that’s why I’m able to speak to you today of the experiences I’ve had and after that the war in Europe came to an end, thank goodness, and we had survived many a hectic night and day for that better and the occasions that I looked back on with a certain amount of pride and sadness because squadron life was quite hectic but crews came and go because of the unfortunate casualty rate, but I look back on my experience with a certain amount of pride and, that I’ve done my duty for my king and country. The war in Europe was over then and we went once or twice to drop food parcels over Holland and after that there was still the war in the Far East to be won and we were then transferred from 207 to 44 Squadron and we went from 5 Group into 3 Group and we were stationed at RAF Mildenhall. We trained for Tiger Force, learning all about the Japan country, cities, its peoples, its navies, air force, but fortunately the Japanese capitulated so we didn’t go. But during that period of no hostilities, we were on Operation Dodge. We shall fly to Italy either Bari on the Adriatic coast or Pomigliano near Naples to pick up twenty five British army troops who’d been out at the Middle East but a long, long time and we used to go off one day and come back the next. The travelling time was seven hours one way and seven and a half hours the other way [unclear] prevailing wind. We used to treat the soldiers with great respect and tell them what was going on and if they wanted to come up to the front and have a look they would take it in turns so we supervised that and we used to land them safely, I think altogether I’ve done about half a dozen trips called Operation Dodge. By this time it was getting near the end of ’45 and then a bloke came, we had to take our Lancaster to a field in Gloucestershire and leave it there and we were made redundant and we said goodbye to each other, promising to keep in touch, which we did. In fact the navigator came to my wedding and I went to his wedding and that was all very, very nice. But in any case, I wasn’t demobbed yet, my British crew hadn’t been promulgated, it was number 47 and I waited for that with some expectancy but I had to learn to be patient, in the meantime I said, right, you’re going out on a ground job out in India, so I went to RAF Lyneham and we flew out in an Avro York making two or three stops before landing at Karachi in India where I started my ground duties. Unfortunately, I didn’t like the water or the water didn’t like me because I finished up with a tummy upset and that kept me a little bit weak for the next two or three weeks. But anyway that was all sorted out and eventually I found myself doing service in Delhi and Calcutta. Calcutta the flight sergeant said, come on sir, I’ll teach you to drive. So I learned to drive in a jeep in Calcutta. I think if you can drive in Calcutta, you can drive anywhere else in the world [laughs]. Eventually the time when I was posted to the North-West Frontier of India, between India and Pakistan. This is before the separation of the Indian state. Today it’s called Pakistan but I was up there, near the borders of Afghanistan and I was up there for about four or five months, I suppose. In the meantime, my release group had been promulgated and I never heard nothing from movements at RAF Delhi so I rang up the wing commander and told him who I was and my release group was promulgated and his reply was sorry Tyrell, we seemed to have forgotten all about you, so could you remind me, my module might still be there. Anyway, they said, well, we’ll fly you back, I said, no, I don’t do no more flying, I want to go back by boat. And so I got on a train from Bashir down to Bombay, today it’s called Mumbai, but Bombay was the town, a city rather and I waited for the boat to come in, which was called SS Orontes and it took three weeks to sail from Bombay to Southampton. And after that, it was going up to Hednesford, RAF Hednesford for medical checks and pick up my civilian clothing and given leave and that’s my service life with the Royal Air Force, over. I’ve done my bit. And it was back to civilian life, job was still safe cause I was in the printing trade and the boss welcomed me with open arms and that’s another story. But at the end of the war I decided to offer my services to the air cadets which I joined previously in ’41 and I stayed with the air cadets from 1947 to 19, 2013, sorry, 2013, I’ve done a total of seventy three years’ service with the air cadets as a cadet, as an instructor, as a commanding officer, as a chairman and as its president. And I was in 1993, I had a letter from the Prime Minister saying that he had it in mind to recommend me for an award and in 1993 I went with my wife and son and grandson in uniform, my grandson was an air cadet too and we went to Buckingham Palace where the Queen awarded me the MBE. She wanted to know how long a service I had done, I said, fifty years Ma’am, she said, that’s a long time, well done, and then puts her head out and that’s the time to bow and leave. So, in my time with the air cadets and the RAF association has been a life of volunteering for the cause that I believed in and when I retired from the Royal Airforce Association after twenty five years as a president, they gave me a surprise painting of a Lancaster EMQ, which is the plane I flew in at RAF Spilsby and today that adorns my hallway for anybody to come and see it. And that’s my life story. Unfortunately this last year my wife has been taken away from me, she’s in a nursing home after a medical mix-up and I’ve just come out of hospital but I’m still pressing on, just like we did in the old days. Thank you.
GC: Wow. Can you tell us a bit about the camaraderie, the unit that flew in the planes.
LRT: Camaraderie, you’ve done everything together, you know, it’s, if we weren’t flying, we said come on, we go to Skegness, we called it Skeggy and the rituals then to, everybody had to buy a round, so whether you liked it or not, you had to have seven pints a beer or seven half a beer whatever but they were lovely days, I mean, on one occasion, George the rear gunner was sounding all very stupid in a way and the skipper said to me, Ralph go down and see what’s happened. So I trowed down in a pitch black, but knowing the Lancaster inside out, especially climbing over the main spar I found that his oxygen tube had become disengaged, so I plugged it in and pepped him on the back and he was fine, so when we got out of the aircraft, I said, George, you owe me two pints. But he never did buy them [laughs]. But that’s the sort of spirit we had, togetherness, I can’t describe it, it’s a closeness of spirit and a closeness of your personalities but we didn’t believe it a hundred percent, we believe in a hundred and ten percent, to make sure we got from A to B and come home safely and nothing more intrigued me than seeing the green lights and the funnel says we landed at night time and the skipper always said if I make a bumpy landing I’ll buy you a drink but he was a good skipper and his landings were perfect. But what a relief to get back on Terraferma! Should never forget it. I think that experience made a bit of a man out of me and I learned to understand other people’s points of view and give and take and that was part of my marriage, we were married to, my wife would wanna go out with the aircrew and we married together and we had some sixty five happy years together, got a son and daughter and five grandchildren. So, that’s it.
GC: You said you trained in Canada. Was it a different way of life out in Canada in the war because?
LRT: No, the food was slightly different, I mean, you had some sort of food that was slightly different but on the other hand we simply enjoyed the food because there was no rationing and there was white bread there and I used to love apple pie and ice cream and they served maple syrup with their bacon. So I got used to that as well but by and large, we used, I used to go to church every Sunday I could, I used to get invited to people’s houses for perhaps a meal, lunch or dinner, but now I kept up my Christian belief bringing up by my parents who were very Christian people and I followed their course and I think that helped. Yes, I think so.
GC: What can you remember about life during the war? I know you was on base, but can you remember what life was like?
LRT: Oh life was, we used to get leave every six weeks, because the pressure, if you want to put it that way, so used to get leave every six weeks, so it was a question of getting on the train, coming down to London and going into Essex and my parents and sister were glad to see me but they knew that I was just for the week, but we should look forward to leaves and go down and see all the people there in the office where I used to work. Cause it was a local newspaper I worked on, printed words, because I worked with my grandfather for a period of time before he retired and I more or less took over him so I love print so it’s planes and print for me and people. And so eventually I after the war the manager made me in charge of production and when I retired I got a big factory to run, plenty of work and [unclear] for the local paper point of view but we were printing for other people as well so I think we were printing about thirty five titles a month, so the workforce was very busily engaged day and night and it was a nice experience, I loved print and nothing is better than seeing a printing press in full flow. So that’s my job as a printer. Fortunately I managed to work the workforce as a team, learning what team spirit meant, and team effort meant as a crew in Bomber Command, that put me in good stead on how to handle men and ladies in the printing industry. I never look back.
GC: Wow. You’ve served towards the end of the war, what was, could you give us a description perhaps of an op?
LRT: Oh, the op, well, I mean, first it was pitch black, a bit cold, the only noise you could hear was the four Merlin engines flying. Occasionally you would hear the click of an intercom switch, perhaps the navigator would ask the pilot to steer a slightly different course, then I would sit with the navigator because I would be reading the radar fixes, transferring them to his plotting map and then, about half hour from the target I would go into the bomb aimer’s position, switch on normally the gear and make sure the bomb site was already and I used to listen in to the BHF for the Pathfinders instructions and perhaps we could see ahead a lot of searchlights and flak swimming up. And in those days we carried Window and this was silver paper which had adverse effect on the enemy’s radar and consequently the flak didn’t come quite so high as us because they were, take a measurement of the silver paper that was dropping slowly towards the earth but then we were told by the master bomber to bomb the red TIs or the green TIs or bomb north of them or whatever. But so I used to take over the aircraft and take the pilot in on the bombing run which would be as short as possible and once I was happy with the situation, I used to say to the pilot the bomb’s going, bomb’s gone, shut the bomb doors, and I used to flash up an aldis lamp to make sure all the bombs are gone and then it was home James. But nothing was a greater pleasure than seeing the white cliffs of Dover at about six o’clock in the morning. And I shall always remember that with some [unclear] of pride, and I think our landfall nine times out of ten was Beachy Head.
GC: You’ve thrown me now. Can you tell me a bit more about, my brain’s gone, my brain’s gone.
LRT: That’s alright [laughs]
GC: It’s just it’s so much I want to ask. Describe the Lancaster.
LRT: Well, it’s a bit of an aircraft, I think it was [unclear], but here I pay great tribute to the ground crew. All the time we were on the squadron we never ever had a malfunction, the ground crew worked like Trojans because they thought it was their aircraft as much as what we did with our point of view and they were the last to see us out and the first to see us back. And I know many a ground crew who were disappointed when air crew didn’t turn back, turn up but we turned up like a bad penny and the first thing, well the ground crews do, put a pint and stuck another bomb on the fuselage. And so the ground crew were excellent. And I do happen to, I remember going to the inaugural of the Bomber Command memorial being unveiled by Her Majesty, The Queen, I shook hands with Prince Charles and he said, did you ever fly on one engine? I said, yes, sir, we flew, but not very long. We couldn’t stay up airborne with one engine but it was in practice that we tried it out but I said, what I want to do is thank the ground crew for the wonderful efforts, he says, quite right too so that was that. And I managed to collect when the Lancaster come over and dropped all those poppies, the fifty five thousand air crew who lost their lives, I managed to get two or three and I’ve got those in my logbook now.
GC: Oh wow!
LRT: And that was quite an occasion.
GC: Yes, that was, that was quite something.
LRT: It’s a beautiful memorial. Beautiful memorial.
GC: Yes, it is.
LRT: The sculpture there has got the expressions dead on, you know, the relief on their faces, are coming back, perhaps after eight, nine, ten hours, you got to see it to believe it. But marvellous sculpture.
GC: It is, it is. Is there one enduring memory from your time?
LRT: The enduring memory I have is dark nights, flashing lights, fighters whizzing around you, diving and ducking, and eggs and bacon at the end of the trip [laughs].
GC: You said you signed up in ’41. Did you feel it was your patriotic duty to do it, did you?
LRT: I was just very keen to fly. My mother was just trying to dissuade me but I was determined, I wanted to fly in the Royal Air Force. And I was, my first flight as an air cadet was in a Miles Magister at RAF Denton, which was a famous Battle of Britain station and I was taken out by a pilot in a Miles Magister and I thought that was great so, but looking back, I suppose I’m speaking on behalf of probably thousands of others who had similar experiences as myself so I’m no exception, I’m just an orderly guy who served king and country and I managed to benefit from the experience.
GC: You said after you’d served in Europe, could you tell us a bit more, you said you did Operation Dodge, please?
LRT: Oh, Operation Dodge, that was, bringing the troops back from Italy, I mean, some I think the Eighth Army were out there for a long time and so they used to, I think we used to pick up about twenty five troops and sit them down and give them blankets cause they were quite cold but we couldn’t go too high because of oxygen but I think the average height was about six to eight thousand feet, that was alright and then we used to pass notes through to them, saying the white cliffs of Dover are just coming up and if you any of you want to go and have a look, come up and have a look. But most of them decided to stay where they were, they had little ration boxes for the flight and we landed at Gaydon I think it was near Peterborough where the customs and excise people wanted to see them make off the aircraft but in the meantime we had managed to get over some cherry brandy and peach brandy and put them sort of radar seats so got away with murder on that one [laughs] but the, it’s interesting because we went over to see Italy and when we landed at Pomigliano, I said to the skipper, before we land, skipper, let’s fly over Vensuvius [sic] and so we done a fairly sharp bank looking right down the hole in the volcano, which was Vensuvius [sic]. And while we were there, on one occasion we managed to go to Pompeii to see all the ruins so, well I have seen the ruins of Pompeii which quite a thing to say, but on those occasions you can have a typical look around but we used to stay in the hotel and we were served by German prisoners of war, a bit ironic but, yeah, of course Italy at that day was a very poor country, wasn’t a lot of food about but we were in and out in a day and I kind enjoyed that. On one occasion the navigator was having a liquid lunch and he was late nearly for take-off and he’d forgotten his maps and I said, good job I’ve got mine then. Ron, what, he said, I’ve got news for you Ralph, you’re left to map read. On one occasion I map read all the way from Mildenhall to Italy and back again but I enjoyed that. It was a question of plotting your route on the topographical map and pick out your pinpoints, tell the skipper what to do. On one occasion, I said, turn left, he said, I don’t turn left give me a compass point, I said, alright [laughs] laugh. Whichever, a good giggle sometimes when we got off so but that was all part and parcel of flying together with six other young men.
GC: I mean, you’ve said you was technically a part time navigator. How did you, did you choose or did they allocate you?
LRT: They allocated me.
CG: As bomb aimer.
LRT: Yeah, because it all depended on that particular time when they were short of pilots, navigators or bomb aimers but it’s a PNBs course, pilot navigator bomber’s course I was on, yeah, but if push comes to shove, I mean, I had sat in the pilot’s seat of a Lancaster more than once, especially when the pilot, he won’t spend a penny, and he’s gotta go right down to the bottom of the aircraft to the chemical toilet and, oh yes, I’d sat alongside the pilot on many occasions. He said, tell the engineer go in the front, in the bomb aimer’s [unclear] I sat with the pilot but were a very happy crew, I can’t think of one occasion where we had a falling out, I think a crew’s spirit and no dissention was the, probably the key to success and survival.
GC: What was it like, for want of a better word, lying down in the front of the Lancaster watching the world go underneath you?
LRT: Well, it’s a little bit frightening because you could see all the stuff that was carried up, I mean, the flak was, you could see the flak coming up towards you, you thought, it’s gonna hit me in a minute, then it exploded below because probably of the effect of the Window, silver paper droppings, but there were occasions where I was at least say a bit apprehensive but all I wanted to do is make sure I bombed the target, got rid of the bombs and, once the plane had got rid of its bombs, it was much lighter and more flyable and the skipper was able to put a few more knots on the airspeed and get out of the target area. And then after it was quietness, the engines were still running, which is the main thing, and on one occasion I do remember the flight engineer saying to the skipper that he didn’t think we’ve got enough fuel to get back and the pilot said to him, well, Burt, do your sums again, check your sums, you never could do your sums properly [laughs], so we laughed about that but in fact the engineer was quite right, we made an emergency landing at RAF Manston and the time we landed on this emergency landing ground, the time we got to the end of the runway, all the engines had stopped and we found out there was a, a lump of flak had hit one of the main tanks and we had lost a lot of fuel but we managed to get near by the skin of our teeth in a way. And anyway they repaired the aircraft, fuelled us up and we reported back to Spilsby that we were on our way back and all was over, all was done. That’s about the only experience we had of flak hitting the aircraft. Never felt a thing.
GC: So you said that was the only time that, did you have any sort of real close calls, was there any incident [unclear]
LRT: No, no, I’d, we saw night fighters but the trouble is if you saw a night fighter coming towards you and you are going toward him, the speed we were both going would probably get up to about four or five hundred miles an hour so we [makes a whooshing sound] you’re gone, you gotta be good eyesight for that but I mean all the aircrew had to have good night vision for that very purpose and the only plane I ever saw, was a German fighter near Sweden and he missed us and I said to the pilot, I’ve just seen a night fighter, get into the nearest cloud and which we did and but that was on the way back from Dresden. That was the longest trip of the war, nine hours fifty five minutes, most of that was over water but a very long trip but again the engines never failed us and mighty glad to get back on the ground again [laughs].
GC: I mean, you obviously required some variety of ops, was the danger different between a day op and a night op?
LRT: Well, at daylight you could see a lot more activity, you could see all the planes from Bomber Command all around you, or especially some above you, with all the bomb doors open [laughs], and though I think probably in daylights were just as hectic if not, also because you knew what was above you, and all depends what you are flying, bombing height was, cause I mean, bombing height varied from about twenty thousand down to about fourteen I suppose, you’re in layers and we all had TOT, Time on Target and they are very strict regarding timing and navigator slopes and they were all taken in and checked by the bomb navigation leader and if your navigation was out, you was having a day off you had to go on perhaps a cross country exercise to make you more efficient. But that was part of the course, part of the course.
GC: I know it’s a slightly personal question, but as a crew on as the job you were doing, how did you feel about what you were doing, knowing that what you was bombing, I know there was a variety of targets?
LRT: I don’t’ think that never came into as, I don’t think our conscience pricked us, alright, in wartime, civilian casualties were high, both to this country and across Europe, unfortunately people do get killed, but I have no regrets, no regrets, I, we were given a task by Bomber Harris and we carried out the duties he allotted to us, that’s all I gotta say.
GC: Let’s change tack. After Europe, you went to India. Tell me a little bit about India.
LRT: Well, That was an admin job really, mostly of some security cause at that time the Indians wanted the British out of India, so you had to be a little bit careful but I thoroughly enjoyed my time out in India because it’s such a vast country and I got on well with the Indian people, although while I was out there I never had a curry, it wasn’t until after the war I enjoyed a curry in this country, but I never had curry in the country, but while you were over there you had your own bearer and you had to pay him so much a week and I remember when my time come to say goodbye to Johnny, I said: “well, I‘m going now, Johnny, thank you very much for looking after me.” He was used to bringing tea and sandwiches first thing in the morning, prepare a bath for me, do my washing and ironing, I mean, I changed shirts about twice or three times a day, but in [unclear] I said, you can have all my loose change, and I think he thought he was a rich man [laughs], cause he had a wife and family to look after but that was the going rate to pay the bearer so much a day but I mean a rupee wasn’t much in those days but he could have [unclear] money but at any rate I was to sorry to say goodbye to him and going through the Suez canal. The roughest part of the sea journey there was going through the Bay of Biscay, with a little bit of up and down to say the least.
GC: That must be a bit different from
LRT: From flying
GC: From flying [laughs]
LRT: Oh yeah, very much so. But fortunately for us on our table, we got allocated a table and the captain of the ship, that was his table, we got to know him quite well, a right old sea dog but in the end he mellowed a little bit and invited us up to the, where he used to command the ship and we could see all the equipment that was there and, yeah, very, very entertaining, otherwise it was a question of playing the same game of solo, all through three weeks going through the various waterways [laughs].
GC: After service, after war or peace was declared, how did you feel when you found out that it was all over?
LRT: Well, it took a little bit of time to resettle because my mother said, you can’t settle down yet, you know, it’s a bit odd, up and down, up and down, always on the go, and but I didn’t even see it at the time coming, I settle down, and I thought, well, I’m not gonna give up the Air Force completely and that’s when I volunteered to offer my services with the air cadets and once a year I used to go back to the Royal Air Force taking air cadets to camp, which was rather nice and of course they knew I’d been in the Royal Air Force cause you got your wing and you got your medals, ribbons up and I said, well, what can we do to give you a better week? I said, oh, nothing, I said, well, what I would like is for the best cadet to have a flight perhaps in a jet if that can be arranged, oh yeah, we can do that for you, sometimes I would say, well, I’ve got a problem, I’ve got three cadets, I can’t differentiate between the three, oh, go on then, we can build a rise, so I said, I thought, well, you gotta be a good scrounger to be in the Air Force and he said, what else do you want, I said, I want some, take some topographical maps and plotting maps back to the squadron, so and teach the cadets navigation and so I used to come back with a few maps and a few bits and bobs and yes, we found very good the RAF officers who were then permanent commission officers, they were very kind to us, very thoughtful and knew what we were doing because we were training up air cadets who ultimately would become officers in the Royal Air Force and quite a few cadets I trained, I bumped into from time to time. I had to go down to Lyneham on a visit once and who should I meet in the control tower? Hastings aircraft was one of my cadets and he was a squadron leader. And he said, thank you sir for looking after me, for what you’ve done, here I am in charge of Hastings aircraft and I said, well, that makes it all worthwhile, you know, the time you’ve given up, hundreds and hundreds of hours, but the fact is that cadets may degrade and they become a better boy or girl, that’s worth it. That’s my philosophy.
GC: It must have been nice for them to have someone who served of your calibre [unclear] who gave them some
LRT: Yes, well, at that time, there were talks about 1946 time, a lot of aircrew officers had gone back to the air training corps and injected a little bit of wartime spirit and with their experiences they could relay perhaps a way of getting to learn a certain point in their training and unfortunately they [unclear] came 1955 the Air Force said, out you go, but they, I think, after they got rid of that, they filled a vacuum and there was left quite shortage of officers then but that the rules of MOD and that was it. But anyway I carried on as chairman for a bit longer and then eventually became president but you know it’s only just recently I’ve given that up because my wife is still in a nursing home so I gotta try and visit her at least two or three times a week. Because that’s, last year’s been hectic from one point of view to another.
GC: And then you get me asking you questions.
LRT: Hey?
GC: I said, and then you get me asking you questions.
LRT: Oh, that’s.
GC: You said you was really lucky when you flew on the Lancaster, you didn’t have any close calls, did you have a superstition or a ritual before you got in the plane?
LRT: No, the only thing I carried with me, cause you couldn’t carry the necktie, shirt and tie because, collar and tie because in case you came down in the water, I had an old neckerchief and it was a maroon one with little scotty dogs on and I flew with it every time. And it’s still upstairs and I haven’t washed it, it’s still got the smell of Lancaster on I think [laughs].
GC: Oh, what does the Lancaster smell like?
LRT: Well, a mixture of petrol fumes and metallic colour smells but grand old lady, grand old lady, I know, and whenever I see the or hear Merlin engines I know what it is. And about two years ago the RAF Association tried to assemble a wartime Lancaster bomber crew. And they managed to find about eight of us and we were taken up to Thurrock in Essex where many then took us all the way to Coningsby, at the Battle of Britain station and the, they made us so welcome there, the Lancaster was outside and I said, well after a comfort break and a cup of coffee all the national press are outside and they want to interview you separately and blah blah blah. And we were there for about four or five hours, you know, they took pictures and I got a beautiful picture of us outside the Lancaster, some poor old boys with sticks, one into an armchair, wheelchair rather [laughs] but they did treat us royally, they said, well, we gotta, we gonna fly a Spitfire for us so you can hear the Merlin engine and the pilot came down after he’d done a few low swoops and he said, what is that boys? Well, I said, we flew in a Lancaster [laughs], he laughs, he said, you on a Dam buster, I said, no. And I said, we used to fly over the British trawlers in the North Sea sometimes so let’s beat them up and we should get down to about fifty feet and waggle our tail at them and they used to wave back and but I said, that was that and [unclear], before you go, I’ll show you that picture.
GC: That would be nice. I have heard that Lancaster crews had the habit of flying very low.
LRT: Oh yeah.
GC: It was a, one of those things
LRT: My skipper used to like fly with one wing in the cloud and one wing out and you caught a [unclear] speed like that, you know.
GC: Considering it was a big plane then, with four engines, she sounds like she was quite agile?
LRT: Oh, very much so, very, the pilot loved the aircraft because he was a good pilot but very responsive, very flexible, I mean, he could always bank at about like that, and even if he was dropping bombs and it wasn’t quite straight level it didn’t matter because the Mark 14 bombsight compensated for when using a slight bank or dive or climb, it didn’t make any difference, cause you’re [unclear] controlled.
GC: I was talking to someone recently and he was a pilot of a Lancaster and he went to Coningsby and the BBMF guide was there and they had quite a long conversation and he was really jealous. He said, cause I only get to fly at flats and he asked him what it was like to go into a corkscrew and the BBMF it was like been told that Santa Claus existed.
LRT: Yes, we did the fivescrew, 5 Group corkscrew was, up port, up starboard, down port, down starboard, gawd dear oh dear your stomach used to come up to here, you know, and the roaring engines, God, I thought, surely the wings are gonna come off in a minute but, no, they made the aircraft well and as I said, the ground crew looked after us well, so.
GC: I had heard again, people say that the plane didn’t belong to you, it was
LRT: Belonged to everybody, belonged to the ground crew, is that my crew photograph over there,
GC: I’d like to get a picture of that. So it was a real team, everybody was
LRT: One hundred percent, well, a hundred and ten percent I would say.
GC: Wonderful, I’m gonna put on pause.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Leonard Ralph Tyrell
Creator
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Gemma Clapton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATyrellLR150929
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:56:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Leonard Ralph Tyrell mentions always being keen on aircraft since he was a boy. He was sent to RAF Syerston near Nottingham for Lancaster Finishing School, and then an advanced flying unit near Wolverhampton, before heading to number 17 OTU at RAF Silverstone. He also describes his training in Canada, from where he returned with the rank of pilot officer. Lenard also recalls his first operation to the Dortmund-Ems Canal; the only time when his aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire; his involvement in Operation Dodge, picking up army troops in Italy. He flew with 207 and 44 Squadron during the war. Emphasises the sense of comradeship and brotherhood among crew members and praises the ground crew’s efforts and dedication to the aircraft and the aircrew. Mentions being awarded an MBE by the Queen and being trained for Tiger Force. Remembers being sent to India while waiting to be demobbed. After the war, remembers staying with the air cadets for over seventy years, covering roles from instructor to president.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Germany
Italy
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1660 HCU
17 OTU
207 Squadron
44 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
faith
fear
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
memorial
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Silverstone
RAF Spilsby
RAF Syerston
Stirling
superstition
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/971/10025/MMolloyS[Ser -DoB]-160212-01.pdf
31dff3d389965a32008336afe506ab34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Molloy, Shae
S Molloy
Description
An account of the resource
One Luftwaffe intelligence file on Allied aircraft.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Shae Molloy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Molloy, S
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[Partial transcription]
Frontnachrichtenblatt der Luftwaffe
Nicht zum Feindflug mitnehmen!
Der Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe
Führungsstab I C
Sonderausgabe:
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Teil I: Britishe Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA-Lieferungen)
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Leistungen und Bilder
Stand: 1. September 1942
INHALT
Vorbemerkungen Anlagen 1 und 2
Teil I: Britische Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen)
Hoheitsabzeichen der britischen Kriegsflugzeuge Anlage 3
Leistungstabellen Grossbritannien (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen) Anlagen 4a-4c
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten britischen Kriegsflugzeuge Anlagen 5a-5e
Westland “Lysander” Anlagen 6a-6c
Hawker “Hurricane I” Anlagen 7a, 7b
Hawker “Hurricane II C” Anlagen 8a-8c
Supermarine “Spitfire I” Anlagen 9a, 9b
Supermarine “Spitfire V” Anlagen 10a, 10b
Supermarine “Spitfire” (Aufkl.) Anlage 10c
Westland “Whirlwind” Anlagen 11a-11c
Boulton & Paul “Defiant” Anlagen 12a, 12b
Bristol “Beaufighter I” Anlagen 13a, 13b
Bristol “Blenheim-Fighter” Anlagen 14a, 14b
Bell “Airacobra” (P-39) Anlagen 15a-15c
Brewster “Buffalo” (F2A-2) Anlagen 16a-16c
Lockheed “Lightning” (P-38) Anlagen 17a-17c
Grumman “Martlet” (F4F-3 “Wildcat”) Anlagen 18a-18c
North American “Mustang” (P-51)Anlagen 19a-19c
Curtiss “Tomahawk” (P-40B) Anlagen 20a, 20c, 20d
Curtiss “Kittyhawk” (P-40E) Anlagen 20b, 20d
Curtiss “Warhawk” (P-40F) Anlagen 20d
Bristol “Beaufort” Anlagen 21a-21c
Bristol “Blenheim I” Anlage 22
Bristol “Blenheim IV” (“Long-nosed”) Anlagen 23a, 23b
Bristol “Blenheim VIII“ Anlage 23c
Handley-Page “Halifax I” Anlagen 24a-24c
Handley-Page “Halifax II” Anlage 24d
Handley-Page “Hampden” Anlagen 25a-25c
Handley-Page “Hereford” Anlage 25d
Avro “Lancaster” Anlagen 26a-26c
Avro “Manchester” Anlagen 27a-27c
De Havilland D. H. 98 “Mosquito” Anlage 28
Short “Stirling” Anlagen 29a-29c
Vickers “Wellington I” Anlage 30b
Vickers “Wellington II” Anlage 30c
Vickers “Wellington III” Anlagen 30a, 30c
Armstrong-Whitworth “Whitley V” Anlagen 31a-31c
Martin “Baltimore” Anlagen 32a, 32b
Martin “Maryland” Anlagen 33a-33c
Lockheed “Hudson” (A-29) Anlagen 34a-34c
Lockheed “Ventura” Anlage 35
Douglas “Boston” (A-20A) Anlagen 36a-36c
Boeing “Fortress I” (B-17 C, D) Anlagen 37a-37c
Boeing “Fortress II” (B-17 E)Anlagen 38a, 38b
Consolidated “Liberator” (B-24) Anlagen 39a-39c
Brewster “Bermuda” (SB2A-1 “Bucaneer”) Anlagen 40a-40c
Vought-Sikorsky “Chesapeake” (SB2U-3 “Vindicator”) Anlagen 41a-41c
Curtiss “Cleveland” (SBC-3) Anlagen 42a-42c
Fairey “Seafox” Anlage 43
Supermarine “Walrus” Anlage 44
Saro “Lerwick” Anlagen 45a-45c
Short “Sunderland” Anlagen 46a-46c
Consolidated “Catalina” (PBY-5 “Catalina”) Anlagen 47a-47c
Consolidated “Coronado” (PB2Y-3 “Coronado”) Anlagen 48a, 48b
Martin “Mariner” (PBM-2 “Mariner”) Anlagen 49a, 49b
Fairey “Fulmar” Anlagen 50a, 50b
Blackburn “Roc” Anlagen 51a-51c
Fairey “Albacore” Anlagen 52a-52c
Fairey “Swordfish” Anlagen 53a, 53b
Blackburn “Skua” Anlagen 54a-54c
Northrop N-3PB Anlage 55
Bristol “Bombay” Anlage 56
De Havilland “Flamingo”, “Hertfordshire”Anlage 57
General Aircraft “Hotspur II” Anlagen 58a, 58b
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Hoheitsabzeichen Anlage 59
Allgemeines Anlage 60
Leistungstabellen USA Anlagen 61a, 61b
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten USA.-Kriegsflugzeuge Anlagen 62a, 62b
North American O-47Anlage 63
Curtiss O-52 Anlage 64
Republic P-43 “Lancer” Anlage 65
Republic P-47 “Thunderbolt” Anlage 66
Douglas A-24 Anlage 67
North American B-25B Anlage 68b
North American B-25C “Mitchell” Anlagen 68a, 68c
Martin B-26 “Marauder”Anlagen 69a, 69b
Douglas SBD-3 “Dauntless” Anlage 70
Curtiss SB2C-1 “Helldiver” Anlagen 71a, 71b
Vultee V-72 “Vengeance” Anlagen 72a, 72b
Vought-Sikorsky SO2U “Kingfisher” Anlage 73
Curtiss SO3C-1 “Seagull” Anlage 74
Boeing PBB-1 “Sea Ranger” Anlage 75
Consolidated 31 Anlage 75
Vought-Sikorsky F4U-1 “Corsair” Anlage 76
Douglas TBD “Devastator” Anlage 77
Grumman TBF “Avenger” Anlage 78
Transportflugzeuge Anlagen 79, 80
Lastensegler Anlage 81
Kleinluftschiff (sog. “Blimp”) Anlage 81
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Hoheitsabzeichen Anlage 82
Allgemeines Anlagen 83a, 83b
Leistungstabellen Sowjet-Union Anlage 84
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union....Anlagen 85a-85c
R-5 Anlage 86
R-10 Anlagen 87a, 87b
I-15 bis Anlage 88
I-153 Anlagen 89a, 89b
I-16 Anlagen 90a, 90b
JAK-1 Anlagen 91a, 91b
MIG-1, -3 Anlagen 92a, 92b
LAGG-3 Anlagen 93a, 93b
SB (bisher SB-2) Anlage 94
SB (bisher SB-3) Anlagen 95a, 95b
AR-2 Anlagen 96a, 96b
DB-3 Anlagen 97a, 97b
DB-3F Anlagen 98a, 98b
JAK-4 Anlage 99
PE-2 Anlagen 100a, 100b
SU-2 Anlagen 101a, 101b
IL-2 Anlagen 102a, 102b
ER-2 Anlage 103
TB-7 Anlage 104
KOR-1 Anlage 105
MBR-2 Anlagen 106a, 106b
MDR-6 Anlage 107
GST Anlage 108
TB-3 Anlage 109a, 109c
PS-84 Anlagen 109b, 109c
U-2 Anlage 110
UT-1 Anlage 111
UT-2 Anlage 111
JAK-7 Anlage 112
Teil I: Britische Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen)
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkungen!
In den Leistungstabellen sind die Flugzeuge der USA.-Herkunft durch entsprechende Überschrift kenntlich gemacht und die militärische und Werksbezeichnung in USA. in der Spalte “Bemerkungen” angeführt.
Bei den Schattenrissen im Maßstab 1:1000 tragen die Anlagen links oben die Überschrift:
“Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien (einschl. USA.-Lieferungen)
Diejenigen Flugzeugmuster, die bei der britischen und bei der USA.-Fliegertruppe eingesetzt sind, tragen in Klammern unter der britischen militärischen Bezeichnung auch die militärische Bezeichnung in USA.
Bei den Bildtafeln und Bewaffnungsskizzen wird unterschieden a) zwischen den Mustern britischer Herkunft, b) den Mustern amerikanischer Herkunft, die nur bei der britischen Luftwaffe eingesetzt werden und c) den Mustern, die bei der britischen und USA.-Fliegertruppe Verwendung finden.
Die unter c) angeführten Muster werden in Teil II “Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.” nicht mehr angeführt.
Die Anlagen tragen deshalb in Teil I links oben folgende unterschiedliche Bezeichnungen:
Zu a) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien
Zu b) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien (Herkunft USA.)
Zu c) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien und USA.
Im Fall b) werden die USA.-Werksbezeichnungen in “Fußnoten” gebracht.
Im Fall c) werden die militärischen USA.-Bezeichnungen in Klammern hinter der britischen Benennung, die USA.-Werksbezeichnungen in Fußnoten gebracht.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Anlage 1
Vorbemerkungen:
1. Die Steigzeiten werden auf 0,5 min, die Dienstgipfelhöhe auf 0,5 km, die Geschwindigkieten auf 5 km/st abgerundet.
2. Bei den Motorenleistungen sind die Höchstleistungen und dahinter die Höhe angegeben, in der die Höchstleistung des betreffenden Motorenmusters erzielt wird.
3. In der Rubrik bew. MG.-Stände/ MG. in den Tabellen (Anlagen 4a – 4c, 61 a, 61 b und 84) bedeutet die obere Zahl die Anzahl der Mg.-Stände, die untere Zahl die Gesamtzahl der MG. Die Anordnung der einzelnen MG. siehe Bewaffnungsskizze des betr. Musters.
4. Flugdauer und Gesamtflugstrecke sind naturgemäß abhängig vom Grad der Drosselung. Die Flugdauer kann sich schätzungsweise rund in den Grenzen 1:3 bewegen, die Gesamtflugstrecke in den Grenzen 1:2. Die angegebene Flugdauer und Gesamtflugstrecke bezieht sich zumeist auf eine mittlere Drosselung von etwa 66% oder auf die angeführte Marschgeschwindigkeit.
5. Unter normaler Flugstrecke und normaler Eindringtiefe sind die Werte bei größter Bombenlast angegeben.
6. Die Leistungen und näheren Angaben der Flugzeuge für mehrere Verwendungszwecke werden nur in der Tabelle der Hauptverwendung angeführt.
7. Bei Unterschieden zu den Angaben der früher herausgegebenen Leistungstabellen sind die Angaben in den Zusammenstellungen dieses Heftes maßgebend.
8. Bei der Betrachtung der Bilder ist zu berücksichtigen, daß die Tarnbemalung entsprechend den verschiedenen Kriegsschauplätzen verschieden ist.
Alle Angaben sind nach dem Stande vom 1. September 1942 neu bearbeitet.
Die in den bisherigen Frontnachrichtenblättern erschienenen Bilder und Zeichnungen der wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeuge sind, soweit brauchbar, wiederholt und ergänzt, die Leistungsangaben berichtigt worden.
Vorliegendes Sonderheft zum Aushang bringen und zum Unterricht benutzen!
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Anlage 2
Anordnung der Bewaffnung, der Kraftstoffbehälter und der Panzerung bei den wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeugen der Feindmächte
In den Zeichnungen sind die Bewaffnung, die Kraftstoffbehälter und die Panzerung nach nachstehendem Schema eingezeichnet:
- Kraftstoffbehälter geschützt
- Kraftstoffbehälter ungeschützt
- Panzerung
- MG
- MG. in Bola [Bola= short for “Bodenlafette”, a ventral gun carriage or gondola]
- Kanone
Die Skizzen sind ohne bestimmten Maßstab. Die Eintragungen wurden auf Grund der zur Zeit vorhandenen Unterlagen – soweit möglich unter Auswertung der Beuteflugzeuge – durchgeführt.
Es ist anzunehmen, daß alle Flugzeuge mindestens mit einem Rückenpanzer für den Flugzeugführer behelfsmäßig ausgestattet sind. Bei den Flugzeugmustern, bei denen an Hand von Beuteflugzeugen eine Panzerung festgestellt wurde, ist diese in den Skizzen eingezeichnet.
Bei den neusten Flugzeugen finden sich nunmehr auch geschützte Kraftstoffbehälter.
Bei den Angaben über die Bewaffnung ist zu berücksichtigen, daß ein und dasselbe Flugzeugmuster verschiedene Bewaffnung aufweisen kann, z. B. Doppel-MG. statt Einfach-MG., Kanonen statt starre MG. usw. Alle bisher bekanntgewordenen Bewaffnungsarten sind bei den jeweiligen Mustern in der Beschreibung auf der Skizze vermerkt.
Die Skizzen von Feindflugzeugen mit Eintragung der Bewaffnung, der Kraftstoffbehälter und der Panzerung werden entsprechend eingehender neuer Unterlagen laufend berichtigt und für neu eingesetzte Flugzeugmuster laufend ergänzt werden!
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Großbritannien (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen) – Anlage 3
Hoheitsabzeichen der britischen Kriegsflugzeuge
Flügeloberseite
Flügelunterseite
Neuerdings sind der gelbe Ring um die Kokarde, desgleichen der weiße Ring in der Kokarde und der weiße Streifen an der Seitenflosse wesentlich schmäler gehalten. Bisher waren alle Ringe der Kokarde und alle Streifen an der Seitenflosse gleich breit.
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkung!
In diesem Teil sind die Muster nicht mehr aufgeführt, die auch in der britischen Luftwaffe eingesetzt sind. Diese Muster sind im Teil I “Britische Kriegsflugzeuge” (einschl. der USA.-Lieferungen) in den Anlagen 15a-15c, 16a-16c, 17a-17c, 18a-18c, 19a-19c, 20a-20d, 34a-34c, 36a-36c, 37a-37c, 38a, 38b, 39a-39c, 40a-40c, 41a-41c, 42a-42c, 47a-47c, 48a, 48b, 49a und 49b gebracht. Diese Anlagen sind dadurch besonders kenntlich gemacht, daß sie links oben folgende Bezeichnung tragen:
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Großbritannien und USA.
Die meisten Bilder tragen noch di bisherigen Hoheitsabzeichen.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – USA. - Anlage 59
Hoheitsabzeichen der USA.-Kriegsflugzeuge
Hoheitsabzeichen auf Flügelober- und –unterseite. Neuerdings häufig nur auf einer Flügelseite (linker Oberseite und rechter Unterseite). Die Flügelunterseiten der Heeresflugzeuge tragen außerdem häufig die Aufschrift: US-Army.
Hoheitsabzeichen auf beiden Seiten des Rumpfes.
Sowohl bei Heeres- als auch bei Marineflugzeugen nicht regelmäßig vorhanden.
Hoheitsabzeichen auf beiden Seiten des Rumpfes, nur bei Marineflugzeugen. Nicht regelmäßig vorhanden.
Hoheitsabzeichen: fünfzackiger weißer oder hellgrauer Stern in kreisförmigem blauen Feld. Nach einer unbestätigten Pressemeldung ist das Hoheitsabzeichen von gelbem Ring umschlossen (warscheinlich am Rumpf). Weiß, gelb, blau
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – USA. - Anlage 60
Allgemeines
Bedeutung der Bezeichnung der Flugzeugmuster der amerikanischen Heeresfliegertruppe
Die einzelnen Flugzeugmuster werden durch Buchstaben und eine Zahl gekennzeichnet. Die Buchstaben vor der Zahl bedeuten die Kategorie, die Zahl gibt an, um das wievielte Muster in der betreffenden Kategorie es sich handelt. Die Bezifferung ist hierbei laufend, ohne Rücksicht auf die Herstellerfirma und ohne Rücksicht darauf, ob das Muster nur als Versuchsmuster oder in Serie gebaut wurde. Ein weiterer Buchstabe nach der Zahl gibt die verschiedenen Serien (Ausführungen) des betreffenden Musters an. Die Kategorien werden durch folgende Buchstaben bezeichnet:
O (Observation) = Aufklärer
B (Bombing) = Kampfflugzeug
A (Attack) = Tiefangriffsflugzeug
P (Pursuit) = Jäger
FM (Multiseater Fighter) = mehrsitziger Jäger (Zerstörer)
C (Cargo) = Transportflugzeug
OA (Observation Amphibium) = Aufklärer-Amphibienflugzeug
Ein X (Experimental) vor der Bezeichnung bedeutet, daß es sich um ein Versuchsmuster handelt, ein Y, daß es sich um ein Flugzeugmuster im Truppenversuch handelt. Zum Beispiel:
B-18 = das 18. Kampfflugzeugmuster
B-18A = die 2. Serie (1. Abwandlung des 18. Kampfflugzeugmusters)
YFM-2 = das 2. Zerstörermuster, im Truppenversuch sich befindend
P-40D = die 5. Ausführung des 40. Jägermusters
Bedeutung der Bezeichnung der Flugzeugmuster der amerikanischen Marinefliegertruppe
Die Fluzeugmuster werden durch eine Gruppe von Buchstaben und Zahlen bezeichnet, die durch einen Bindestrich getrennt sind. Durch die Gruppe vor dem Bindestrich wird die Art der Verwendung, die Herstellerfirma und die Musterzahl gekennzeichnet, während die Zahl hinter dem Bindestrich die betreffende Serie angibt. Der letzte Buchstabe vor dem Bindestrich ist das Kennzeichen für die Herstellerfirma, wobei die einzelnen Firmen wie folgt bezeichnet sind:
A = Brewster
B = Boeing (auch Beech Aircraft)
C = Curtiss
D = Douglas
F = Grumman
H = Hall
J = North American
L = Bell
M = Martin
N = Naval Aircraft Factory
O = Lockheed
P = Spartan
R = Ryan
S = Stearman
T = Northrop
U = Vought-Sikorsky
Y = Consolidated.
Die vorangehende Zahl gibt an, um das wievielte Flugzeug dieser Kategorie der betreffenden Firma es sich handelt, wobei jedoch das erste Flugzeug nicht speziell durch eine Zahl angeführt wird. Die Zahl 1 wird daher weggelassen. Vor dieser Zahl wird der Verwendungszweck des Musters durch 1 bis 2 Buchstaben ausgedrückt. Der erste Buchstabe bedeutet hierbei den Hauptverwendungszweck, der zweite die zusätzliche Verwendungsart. Es werden folgende Buchstaben verwendet:
P = Fernaufklärer (Flugboote)
O = Aufklärer (Artilleriebeobachter)
S = Nahaufklärer
B = Kampfflugzeuge (Stuka)
F = Jagdflugzeuge
J = Arbeitsflugzeuge (Amphibien)
N = Schulflugzeuge
R = Reiseflugzeuge
T = Torpedoflugzeuge
PB = Fernaufklärer-Kampfflugzeuge
OS = Artilleriebeobachter und Nahaufklärer
SB = Aufklärer-Stuka
TB = Torpedo-Kampfflugzeuge
SN = Aufklärer-Schulflugzeuge
JR = Arbeits-Reiseflugzeuge
Ein X (Experimental) vor diesen Buchstaben bedeutet, daß es sich um eine Versuchsauführung handelt. Die Zahl hinter dem Bindestrich bezeichnet, um die wievielte Serie des betreffenden Musters es sich handelt, wobei die einzelnen Serien verschiedene Motorenmuster oder sonstige Änderungen aufweisen.
Zum Beispiel:
S U-4
S: Kategorie “Aufklärer”
U: Fa. Vought (Da keine Zahl voraussteht, bedeutet es das 1. Muster dieser Kategorie)
4: 4. Serie
S B 2 U-3
S B: Kategorie “Aufklärer-Stuka”
2: 2. Muster dieser Kategorie (der Fa. Vought)
U: Fa. Vought-Sikorsky
3: 3. Serie
X T B F -1
X: Versuchsmuster
T B: Kategorie Torpedobomber
F: Fa. Grumman (1. Muster der Kategorie)
1: 1. Serie
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkung!
Um die Feststellung von erbeuteten Flugzeugen zu erleichtern, sind die Muster auch mit den russischen Buchstaben bezeichnet, z. B. I-16 = И-16.
Bei den seit 1940 engeführten neuen Flugzeugmustern erfolgte ab 1941 eine Änderung der Bezeichnung: die Neubezeichnung führt nicht mehr die Kategorie der Flugzeuge an, sondern ist aus den Namen der Konstrukteure gebildet. Diese neuen militärischen Bezeichnungen werden in der vorliegenden Zusammenstellung in der ersten Überschriftzeile in der deutschen und der russischen Schreibweise angegeben, die bisherigen Bezeichnungen in Klammern darunter (nur in der deutschen Schreibweise). Bei den schon früher eingeführten Mustern ist die alte Bezeichnungsart beibehalten worden.
In diesem Teil werden nur die Kriegsflugzeuge gebracht, die in der Sowjet-Union selbst hergestellt werden.
Die Muster britischer und amerikanischer Lieferungen sind in Teil I (Britische Kriegsflugzeuge einschl. der USA.-Leiferungen) und Teil II (Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.) zu finden.
Zur Zeit (September 1942) sind folgende fremde Muster bei der Luftwaffe der Sowjet-Union festgestellt worden:
Jagdeinsitzer Hawker “Hurricane” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 7a, 7b, 8a-8c)
Jagdeinsitzer Bell “Airacobra” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 15a-15c)
Jagdeinsitzer Curtiss “Tomahawk” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 20a, 20c, 20d)
Kampfflugzeug Douglas “Boston II” und “Boston III” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 36a-36c)
Kampfflugzeug North American B-25 (s. Teil II, Anlagen 68a-68c)
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 82
Hoheitsabzeichen nach sowjetischer Vorschrift von 1941
Seitenansicht
Ansicht von oben
Ansicht von unten
Die Vorschrift wird nicht in allen Fällen genau durchgeführt. Es wurde festgestellt, daß der Sowjetstern auf dem Seitenruder gelegentlich fehlt oder daß die Flügeloberseite das Hoheitsabzeichen trägt.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 83a
Allgemeines
Die militärische Bezeichnung der älteren Muster erfolgt nach der Kategorie des betreffenden Musters mit einem oder zwei Buchstaben und einer darauffolgenden Zahl.
Es bedeutet hierbei:
I (Istrebitelj) = Jagdeinsitzer
DI (Dwuchmestnyi Istrebitelj) = Jagdzweisitzer
B (Bombardirowschtschik) = Bomber
SB (Skorostnoj Bombardirowschtschik) = Schneller Bomber
DB (Daljnyj Bombardirowschtschik) = Fern-Bomber
BB (Blishnij Bombardirowschtschik) = Nah-Bomber
TB (Tjashjolyj Bombardirowschtschik) = Schwerer Bomber
PB (Pikirujuschtschi Bombardirowschtschik) = Stuka
BSch (Bronirowany Schturmowik) = Gepanzertes Schlachtflugzeug
R (Raswedtschik) = Aufklärer
SchR (Schturmowik Raswedtschik) = Teifangriffsflugzeug – Aufklärer
U (Utschebnyj Samoljot) = Schulflugzeug
UT (Utschebnyj Trenirowatschnyj) = Schul-Übungsflugzeug.
In der darauffolgenden Zahlenbezeichnung ist kein System zu erkennen. Die Zahlen sind weder aufeinanderfolgend, noch nach Werk, Konstrukteur oder Motor durchgeführt. Weiterentwicklungen werden manchmal durch eine nachfolgende Zahl, z. B. I-15 ………. I-153, manchmal durch einen nachfolgenden Buchstanden, z. B. DB-3……………Db-3F, bezeichnet.
Bei den neu eingeführten Flugzeugmustern erfolgt die Bezeichnung seit 1941 nicht mehr nach der Kategorie des Musters, sondern nach den Namen der Konstrukteure (vgl. Vorbemerkung).
Die Werktypenbezeichnung erfolgt durch eine Nummer.
Neue Bezeichnung:
JAK-1
JAK-2, -4
JAK-7
MIG-1, -3
LAGG-3
AR-2
PE-2
ER-2
SU-2
IL-2
Ursprüngliche Bezeichnung:
I-26
BB-22
UTI-26 (I-26 als 2sitziges Übungsflugzeug)
I-200 (Werksbezeichnung I-61)
I-301
SB-RK
Bei den neuen Mustern wurde oft eine Verschiedenheit in der Konstruktion oder in der Bewaffnung vorgefunden, was darauf schließen läßt, daß die serienmäßige Entwicklung noch nicht abgeschlossen ist.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 83b
Bei Meldungen über abgeschlossene oder zerstörte Flugzeuge ist künftig die neue Musterbezeichnung anzuführen!
Hinweise für den Flugmeldedienst:
Die Unterschiede zwischen einigen Flugzeugmustern sind derart gering, daß ihr einwandfreies Erkennen im Luftraum schwierig ist. Für den Flugmeldedienst werden daher zweckmäßig sich sehr ähnlich sehende Muster (die auch immer gleichen Verwendungszweck haben) unter nur einer Bezeichnung zusammengefaßt.
1. I-15bis und I-153 werden nur als I-153 angesprochen. I-153 ist nur eine Weiterentwickung des Musters I-15 und hat wesentlichstes Merkmal ein einziehbares Fahrwerk. Außerdem sind beim Muster I-153 der obere und untere Flügel geknickt.
2. Die drei neuen Jagdeinsitzermuster LAGG-3, MIG-1, -3 und JAK-1 (“Spitzmaus”-Muster) werden nur “Lagg” angesprochen.
Am Boden ist die Unterscheidung wegen der verschiedenen Bauweisen ohne weiteres möglich.
Das Muster LAGG-3 ist in Ganzholzbauweise ausgeführt,
Das Muster JAK-1 hat einen Holzflügel (durchlaufend) und einen Rumpf aus Stahlrohr geschweißt, mit Stoff bespannt,
Das Muster MIG-1, -3 hat die Außenflügel und den rückwärtigen Teil des Rumpfes ab Führersitz in Holzbau, den Rumpfvorderteil und das Flügelmittelstück in Metallbau.
Diese drei neuen Jagdeinsitzermuster haben flüssigkeitsgekühlte V-Motoren, die beiden älteren Muster haben luftgekühlte Sternmotoren.
3. Alle SB-Muster (SB-2, -3) und das Muster AR-2 (SB-RK) werden unter der Sammelbezeichnung “SB” angesprochen.
Hauptunterscheidung am Boden:
Alle drei Muster haben flüssigkeitsgekühlte V-Motoren, aber verschiedene Kühleranordnung: SB-2 Stirnkühler, SB-3 Bauchkühler, AR-2 (SB-RK) Flügelkühler.
SB-2 und SB-3 haben einen Bugstand mit Schwenklafette, wobei jedes MG. sich in einem Längsschlitz in der Bugnase bewegt, das Muster AR-2 hat einen geschlossenen Bugstand mit einem MG. in Kugellafette.
Das Muster AR-2 hat Sturzflugbremsen, ähnlich wie die Ju-88, die beiden SB-Muster haben keine Sturzflugbremsen.
4. Die beiden Muster DB-3 und DB-3 F werden unter der Bezeichnung “DB-3” zusammengefaßt (zum Unterschied vom Muster TB-3 = “TB-3” Ansprache zweckmäßig “Dora B-3” und “Toni B-3”).
Beide Muster haben luftgekühlte Sternmotoren und unterscheiden sich nur durch die Art der Bugkanzel. Das Muster DB-3 hat eine stumpfe Kanzel mit einem MG.-Drehturm im Bug, das Muster DB-3 F hat eine langgestreckte Kanzel mit einem MG. in Kugellafette.
Alle anderen Muster sind mit ihrer Bezeichnung anzusprechen. Ähnlich sind sich noch die Muster SU-2 und R-10 sowie die beiden Muster PE-2 und JAK-4. Ein sicheres Unterscheiden dieser Muster wird nur bei einigen Fluglagen möglich sein. Ein gutes Unterscheidungsmerkmal bei den Mustern SU-2 und R-10 is die Lage des Führersitzes, der beim Muster R-10 ganz vorn, unmittelbar hinter dem Motor angeordnet ist, während er beim Muster SU-2 weiter zurücklegt. Bei der Ansicht von unten weist das Muster R-10 eine gerade Flügelhinterkante (Keilflügel) auf, während das Muster SU-2 einen Doppeltrapezflügel hat. Als Unterscheidungsmerkmal am Boden dient auch das Motorenmuster: R-10 mit einfachen Sternmotor, SU-2 mit Doppelsternmotor.
Die Muster PE-2 und JAK-4 sind in der Luft schwer zu unterscheiden, am Boden aber infolge der verschiedenen Bauweisen leicht zu erkennen. Das Muster PE-2 ist in Ganzmetallbauweise ausgeführt, das Muster JAK-4 in Gemischt-, der Flügel in Holzbauweise.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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223 printed sheets. The following pages are missing: 25b, 25d, 43, 61a, 73, 75, 76, 79, 80, 81.
Language
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deu
Type
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Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
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MMolloyS[Ser#-DoB]-160212-01
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Conforms To
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Pending review
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Description
An account of the resource
Contains photographs, silhouettes and drawings of British, American and Russian aircraft, showing dimensions, armament, armour plate or glass, and position of fuel tanks. Tables set out aircraft capabilities, including range and bomb loads.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Creator
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Germany. Wehrmacht Luftwaffe
B-17
B-24
B-25
Beaufighter
Blenheim
Boston
Catalina
Defiant
fuelling
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Hampden
Hudson
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lysander
Manchester
Mosquito
P-38
P-40
P-51
Spitfire
Stirling
Sunderland
Swordfish
Ventura
Walrus
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/PBirelliG1701.1.jpg
9c75ae32c45c0ae26726392ca6e85d6c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/118/1196/ABirelliG171223.2.mp3
09f10c8588a2ca32dff84c4370287a0a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Birelli, Giuliana
Giuliana Birelli
G Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giuliana Birelli who recollects her wartime experiences in rural Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Birelli, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GF: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Greta Fedele. L’intervistato è Birelli Giuliana. L’intervista ha luogo in [omitted], presso la casa della signora Giuliana il 23 dicembre 2017.
GB: Allora.
GF: Grazie mille per aver accettato di parlare con noi. Volevo chiederle, così per iniziare, prima che iniziasse la guerra, quanti anni aveva, dove viveva, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, quello che vuole.
GB: Allora io avevo sei anni. Già parte?
GF: Sì, sì.
GB: Sei anni e vivevo a Lisciano Niccone Perugia, Perugia, per cui ero una bambina piccola mi ricordo appena appena. Mio papà e la mia mamma, c’avevano, facevano il contadino e a noi bimbi che eravamo otto, otto bimbi, ci ha portato tutto in mezzo ai boschi, ci ha fatto tutto come un rifugio in mezzo ai boschi e siamo stati lì giorno e notte perché i tedeschi venivano casa per casa. A un certo punto quando sono arrivati, non so se erano i partigiani che bombardavano, hanno bombardato un ponte da Lisciano Niccone per andare a Mercatale, quel ponte lì l’hanno spianato. Mercatale di Cortona, Arezzo. Era un’altra provincia, non era Perugia. Comunque a noi c’hanno spazzato la casa, portavano via vino, portavano via prosciutti, se trovavano le ragazze, le molestavano anche, le facevano del male, e in più, eh niente, i uomini li prendevano, li portavano via. E la mia mamma, che era una donna che aveva otto figli, per andare a trovare un figlio all’ospedale sono stati rapinati dai tedeschi. E loro, posso andà avanti?
GF: Certo, certo.
GB: E loro, eh, cioè, briachi come erano, l’avevano portati al loro rifugio. Erano due signore, la mamma, la mia mamma, e un’amica che andavano a trovare na figlia che era operata in ospedale a Perugia, cosa hanno fatto? Quei tedeschi lì si erano addormentati che erano talmente briachi, loro piano piano piano sono scappati, sono andati da na famiglia e sono riusciti a scappare, se no, non so cosa gli capitava. Poi eh, io che posso dire?
GF: Ma si ricorda il giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra?
GB: eh, [unclear]
GF: Cosa stava facendo? Se era a scuola, era a casa? Come gliel’hanno detto i suoi genitori?
GB: E [unclear], quando è scoppiata la guerra io non ti so dire.
GF: Ok.
GB: Quando è finita praticamente, finita di, a giugno mi sembra, no? Che dopo c’erano, erano arrivati i tedeschi, erano arrivati i americani per liberare l’Italia, no? E dopo è finita quella maniera lì. Io non mi ricordo più di niente eh perché ci vogliono i vecchi eh che si ricordano ste cose [laughs], non una bambina così.
GB: E quando andava a scuola durante la guerra, si ricorda se le maestre le, vi spiegavano cosa stava succedendo? Come vi dovevate comportare?
GB: Era già finita la guerra quando io sono andata a scuola, perché allora si andava da sette anni. Io non avevo sette in anni in quel momento lì. Allora no, con le maestre se ne parlava dopo di guerre che avevano distrutto proprio il paese ma no, quel momento della guerra io a scuola non andavo. E niente, così. E portato via tutti i prosciutti, tutti de, i maiali, le bestie perché prendevano anche le bestie grandi, le mucche, i vitelli, portavano tutti i tedeschi eh.
GF: E sono venuti proprio nella vostra casa?
GB: Casa, sì, sì, sì, sì, noi si dormiva al bosco c’aveva fatto il rifugio il papà, no? Aveva fatto il rifugio a noi, [unclear] stava giorno e notte su, lu camminava, li curava dove andavano, perché andavano a gruppi loro, no? Fare kaput dicevano, hai capito? Allora li curava, andava giù, prendeva la roba per darci da mangiare. Portava anco le bestie, aveva fatto il rifugio anco per le bestie perché spazzavano via tutto eh.
GF: E avevate paura?
GF: Cavoli, molta paura, molta paura perché si sentivano, arrivavano i caccia, arrivavano i caccia proprio e, Perugia è montagne e pianura, no? Venivano fuori dalla montagna, sembrava ti cadessero addosso, sì, sì, questo me lo ricordo bene eh. Che ancora quando li vedi hai quel punto di paura, sì.
GF: Perché li vedeva vicino questi aerei.
GB: Vicino, cioè sbucavano dalla montagna, s’abbassavano proprio, è na cosa che è rimasta proprio da noialtri bambini, mhm mhm mhm. E niente, dopo io non so cosa ti devo dire.
GF: E suonavano gli alarmi quando si avvicinavano questi aerei per avvisarvi?
GB: No, no, no, niente allarmi da quelle parti lì, niente allarmi, niente, niente, no, no, nessuno ti avvisava che scoppiava una mina, che arrivavano magari dalla montagna a fianco buttavano la mina dall’altra parte, niente, arrivava il boom della mina e basta, hai capito? Io mi ricordo che finita cioè era giugno che si falciavano il grano e na mina mi è caduta proprio dove falciavano il grano, aveva fatto una buca che sembrava che chissà cos’era caduta. Di morti no, però lo spavento tanti, tanti, tanto spavento. Loro che erano con tutti sti bambini piccoli figurati, ero la penultima, eh.
GF: Quindi aveva dei fratelli più grandi.
GB: Erano tutti più grandi,
GF: Tutti più grandi.
GB: Quegli altri, tutti ragazzini erano capisci. Sposata era una sola e il fratello, quello che è morto adesso, se no le altre erano tutte piccole, quelle più grandi di me ce n’erano tre femmine, tre ragazze. Dopo.
GF: E I suoi fratelli maschi? Qualcuno era soldato all’epoca o erano troppo piccoli?
GB: No, no, erano troppi piccoli per andare soldati. No, no, loro non, cioè, noi dalla nostra parte militari nessuno, no. E il papà non l’ha fatto, non l’hanno preso perché aveva tutti figli hai capito? Aveva questi otto figli, non poteva, e poi andare a fare il militare perché c’aveva anco il papà e la mamma vecchi, nonni. Eh, hai capito? La casa non era sbarcata, non avevano toccato la casa solo che noi l’avevamo abbandonata dalla paura. Mhm mhm mhm.
GF: Ehm, e quindi mi diceva che spesso questi aerei volavano vicino a voi.
GB: Sì, vicino, sì, sì, uscivano dalla montagna, della montagna di Passignano sul Trasimeno, sempre Perugia e lì, eh, Lisciano Niccone su una vallata piana. E uscivano da quella montagna, sembrava che toccavano i rami delle piante poi si abbassavano, [makes a lowpitched droning noise] e partivano tutte, sì, si.
GF: E sganciavano delle bombe?
GB: E dalle parti sì eh, dalle parti delle montagne le lanciavano, no sulla pianura.
GF: E voi lo vedevate?
GB: E sì eh, le si hann viste, io due bombe ho visto a scoppiare, dalla campagna dove mietevano il grano, dove falciavano il grano e dalla vallata proprio dove a fianco di noi della nostra casa. Eh sì!
GF: E si ricorda che sentimenti ha provato in quel momento?
GB: Brivido di paura, brivido di paura che adesso è la fine, se per caso invece di prendere la montagna di là prendevano dove, perché tutti i contadini avevano fatto il rifugio dalle montagne, dal bosco, no? Ma se per caso ti prende di qua che non c’è nessuno prendevano lì, spianavano le famiglie intere, sì. Eh, paura, molta paura, piccola però ti ricordi ancora quel brivido lì. Mhm mhm.
GF: E suo papà le raccontava cosa stava succedendo?
GB: Eh, veniva su, aveva paura, ‘stete dentro, stete dentro’, sai noi ragazzine, eh si giocava, noi, zitti zitti, si doveva sempre stare zitti, sempre a silenzio. E io ero quasi la più piccola, però quelle altre che erano ragazzine più grande, c’è sempre tre anni, una tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, quell’altra tre anni, c’erano anche ce avevano quasi vent’anni eh, più anche. Eh no, comunque è stata una cosa, che io la so raccontare male perché ero piccolina ma i vecchi se c’era qualche vecchio la raccontava meglio di me, sicuro, sicuro. E niente così.
GF: Quindi stavate in questo rifugio in mezzo ai boschi che aveva costruito suo papà.
GB: In mezzo al bosco, in mezzo al bosco, tutti coperti, tutte, tutte, aveva fatto sto rifugio sotto e l’aveva tutto coperto di rami che loro anco se scendevano dalla montagna i caccia non vedevano eh. Alla sera era sempre buio eh, alla sera mica accendevi luci eh.
GF: Tutto spento.
GB: Tutto spento, tutti zitti, tutti spenti. Era così.
GF: E come passivate il tempo in quei momenti?
GB: Come passivate? Noi ragazze, noi, io ero bambina ma le ragazze più grandi avevano voglia di giocare, di fare. Eh ma sai, c’era la paura dovevi stare zitte, con la paura stavi zitti, o morire, o stare zitti eh.
GF: E sapevate chi era che vi stava bombardando?
GB: Erano, erano tedeschi quelli, i tedeschi. Tedeschi che venivano, no? Perché sapevano che c’erano lì per, persone, tedeschi. E dopo sono arrivati i partigiani, no? I partigiani. Era il tedesco che colpiva il partigiano. Come anche in Lombardia, no? Scendevano dalle montagne quando era finita la guerra, tutti sti partigiani, tutti sti belli ragazzi. Questo me l’ho sentita raccontare perché io qui avevo un cognato, il fratello de Benito che era qui, e ha sposato una lombarda e lui si era innamorato di sta ragazza, tempo di guerra ma non potevano stare assieme. Cosa ha fatto? Lui è andato partigiano, è andato partigiano ai monti è andato, ma tanti l’hanno uccisi de sti partigiani. Dopo quando è venuto a casa che è tornato dai monti, l’ha sposata. Hai capito? Sì, sì, anche sta storia perché io del sessanta dopo sono venuta, sono sposata, sono venuta su in Lombardia, questi la. Io raccontavo la guerra di quella laggiù e loro questa. Loro più partigiani in Lombardia. Laggiù, giù da noi partigiani un po’ meno. Tanti tedeschi, tedeschi hanno fatto spazza pulita se non arrivavano gli americani, eh.
GF: E lei si ricorda quando sono arrivati gli americani?
GB: E quando sono arrivati i americani quando hanno detto, io non me la ricordo cosa avranno detto però che è finita la guerra tutti, tutti, un urlo de gioia, capito?
GF: Avete festeggiato?
GB: Eh, tutti contenti, contadini se sono radunati, hanno buttato via le bare, le baracche che avevano fatto [laughs], tutti no, perché qui c’è il contadino, qui c’è un altro, qui c’è un altro, eravamo tutta una zona di contadini, sì. E comunque c’è stato perché dopo noi avevamo su, l’altro paesino che sarà stato un chilometro e mezzo che non si poteva andare perché avevano bombardato il ponte e che non passavi per andare all’altro paese ch’avevamo la farmacia, avevamo tutto di là perché c’è poco. Loro facevano un’altra provincia noi un’altra però come, loro, il comune era di Cortona, noi eravamo di Lisciano Niccone, noi era il paese più piccolo però aveva il comune, ha il comune. Pensi che quello è un paese più grosso e non ha il comune, deve fare chilometri per andare al comune. E allora per quanto non si poteva andare né in farmacia, niente, non dovevano. Sai, era il ponte grande, c’era l’acqua per attraversare se non c’è il ponte dove traversi? Loro avevano messo qualcosa tra i due comuni quando è finita la guerra per podè passare da un paese all’altra. E niente, così.
GF: Quindi lei si ricorda questo ponte distrutto.
GB: Sì, sì, sì, distrutto, che non sapevano dove andare, per andare in farmacia, per andare tante cose di là c’erano, c’erano le banche che noi non avevamo le banche di qua perché le banche sono dalla parte de sto paesino qua, ancora oggi, per esempio mio fratello, eh, mio fratello che è morto, ha tutti i soldi da quelle banche lì e noi non riusciamo a prendere niente perché quella de Monte Paschi di Siena è lì, hai capito? E’ tutta, tutta na storia, na catena che noi non avevamo la banca di qua. Perché, per andare a Perugia la regione proprio, la, dovevi andare a quaranta chilmetri per andare a Perugia, Perugia, eravamo più dalla parte di Arezzo, eh, hai capito? Così.
GF: Quindi suo padre faceva fatica.
GB: E quand’è stata sì, il momento di guerra che ha durato un po’, no? Io adesso de preciso non te so dì quanto ha durato però ha durato un po’ per, c’aveva i anziani, nonni, c’aveva i genitori lui, noi nonni, che avevano bisogno delle medicine, hai capito? Un certo momento la nonna si è ammalata e non passavano, non podevano andare con le macchine perché allora non c’erano strade, le portavano con la, con li carrelli così, eh, era una vita proprio de medio evo, no? Sì, sì. Ecco, e così.
GF: Ma quando stavate nel rifugio lei si sentiva sicura?
GB: Nel rifugio sì perché era,
GF: Si sentiva sicura.
GB: Loro avevano scavato sti uomini e poi l’avevano tutta coperta de sta roba qui, eh sei sicura, solo se dovevano venire le mine come, n’ann buttate due, eh, che mi ricordo io, era difficile che le buttavano però due l’hann buttate proprio dalla fine della guerra, quelle due l’hann buttate e dopo quando hanno bombardato il ponte di là è stata, è stata, gli aerei da una parte l’altra l’hann buttate giù a più non posso eh quel ponte lì, sì. E niente comunque hanno spezzato, hanno spezzato i due comuni, eh, eh. E che te voglio dire?
GF: E avevate dei parenti che vivevano nell’altro comune, delle persone che conoscevate?
GB: Eh sì, certo che avevamo delle persone si [unclear], capirai, un chilometro te conosci tutte, le banche, la farmacia, se volevi andare a tagliare i capelli dovevi andare dalla parte di là che di qua non c’è, eh certo che conoscevi, eh, hai capito?
GF: Quindi è stato complicato.
GB: Molto, molto, molto, Io me la ricordo la paura ecco, quella grande paura che dovevi proprio stare zitta e stare più rifugiata che potevi perché quando vedevano che camminava una donna con bambino erano guai eh, erano guai. Noi non ci faceva scendere più da sta collinetta ci ha fatto sta capanna con terrata giù per terra perché ha scavato poi tutta chiusa, tanto per noi famigliari che per le bestie che poteva salvare perché aveva i vitelli, aveva maiali, aveva le, tutte ste bestie qui loro le caricavano eh. Avevano i cani (?), caricavano tutto loro eh. Tedeschi caricavano tutto. Quando avevano, vedevano una cantinina, no? Come per esempio giù, na finestrina che buttavano giù, entravano dentro perché sapevano che c’erano i prosciutti, c’erano i salami hai capito? Erano delinquenti proprio i tedeschi, eh.
GF: E cosa pensava di chi vi stava bombardando? Cosa pensavate?
GB: No, lo parlava il papà che erano tedeschi, eh. Tedeschi, sono tedeschi poi si, dialetto che avevano, fare kaputte, fare kaputte, dice: ‘State attenti ragazze se loro dicono fare kaputte, fare kaputte, v’ammazzano, eh, state zitti, qua ammazzano, eh’. E avevano, sì, si sapeva che erano tedeschi, certo. E papà lo diceva.
GF: E dopo la liberazione quindi avete festeggiato, siete potuti tornare a casa vostra.
GB: Sì, dopo, tutti contadini, tutti sono beh, dopo è venuta la trebbiatura del grano, con le macchine hanno fatto grande festa a tutti, eh sì. Sono arrivati americani che hann salvato tutto eh. Sì.
GF: E i rifugi quindi li avete abbandonati.
GB: E il rifugio, niente, è rimasto lì, abbandonato perché che vuoi ie fai tutto de legno, tutto de coto, il bosco era del nostro, eh è rimasto lì, e dopo a poco a poco si è ripreso la legna [laughs] hai capito?
GF: E quindi dopo che è finita la guerra lei ha incominciato ad andare a scuola.
GB: A scuola, sì, dopo si parlava, le maestre, io non me la ricordo cosa avrebbero detto però la guerra è stata parlata per parecchio tempo, eh. Che se ringraziavano americani come avrè visto il padre eterno,come nasce il bambino adesso perché se no non so. [phone rings] Adesso risponderà lui eh. Hai capito?
GF: E quindi il sentimento più grande che provavate era la paura. Tantissima paura.
GB: La paura, la paura di morire, la paura che buttassero qualche mina, qualche bomba che ci, la paura di morire, e noi si doveva stare sempre zitti. Si giocava a carte zitti zitti, eh, quelle robe lì facevi perché [unclear] come cadeva la sera era buio. E che? Più di dormire non facevi, che potevi fare? Da bambini.
GF: E si ricorda se pregavate per caso?
GB: Anche pregare sì, molto. Eh, la mia mamma ci faceva pregare, che finisse presto sta brutalità, lei poverina aveva avuto anche quella brutta avventura di essere, oè, se loro non erano addormentati non so cosa gli facevano eh. Venivano violentate, venivano. Perché quel momento lì non c’erano pullman, non c’erano niente. Lei aveva una parente che era all’ospedale, quaranta chilometri, loro andavano a piedi sti quaranta chilometri per andare a trovare sta parente che era operata dall’ulcera, dall’appendice, e, e niente, l’hann prese, camminavano sulla strada, l’hann prese, l’hann caricate intal camion, caricate tal camion, l’hanno portate dal loro rifugio perché loro avevano i rifugi, eh, i tedeschi, capito? Avevano preso le case proprio e loro dalla piena notte che dormivano, che erano briachi, perché loro s’ambriacavano eh, bevevano da matti, dove andavano che trovavano il vino erano briachi. Allora loro pian pian piano sono riusciti a uscire, hanno visto il lumino, na casettina c’era il lumino, sono andati a bussare da sta casetta, son venuti fuori due vecchietti, l’hann fatte entrare, poi dopo la mattina, l’hann raccontato così, alla mattina hann preso e son tornate a casa. Sì, non sono andate più neanche a trovare quella là in ospedale. E’ na cosa che lei l’ha vissuta sulla sua pelle, eh? Eh, lo diceva sempre: ‘State zitti, state zitti, che vi ammazzano’ eh, tutte ste parole.
GF: E voi non vi eravate accorti che erano state rapite?
GB: Eh no, perché erano partite per l’ospedale, dormivano da qualche parte là in ospedale e no, dopo quando è tornata, che è tornata il giorno dopo, ha detto che neanche era andata. Io, ricordato da lei eh sempre perché quel momento lì io on me la ricordo proprio. Ricorda lei che è stata una esperienza proprio bruttissima, sì, sì. [pauses] Eh, loro s’ambriacavano, portavano, briachi com’erano non gli hanno fatto niente dopo quando si svegliavano era il guaio ma loro pian pian piano sono uscite, sono riuscite a scappare che non avevano chiuso, hann visto sto lumino di notte, insomma, e bella che erano ancora al rifugio de loro, hai capito? Gli è andata bene, gli è andata benone, ha raccontato, diceva, io posso ringraziare proprio, signore perché m’è andata bene, mhm mhm mhm.
GF: E adesso che sono passati tanti anni, cosa pensa delle persone che vi bombardavano?
GB: Eh, un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, quando si parla della Germania, chi è che ha sofferto così non è tanta bella, eh, no. No, no. Un po’ di odio per quella gente lì, perché l’Italia l’hanno spacciata fuori quel momento lì eh, non so perché la volevano tanta con l’Italia. I vecchi lo sanno però, eh, i vecchi vecchi lo sanno perché c’era sta grande cosa per il Duce per che cosa, eh? Eh, per forza. Ma io non ti posso raccontare perché non la so questa la storia perché ce la volevano tante l’italiani, non la so. Hai capito? Così.
GB: E si ricorda se sono arrivati dei partigiani lì dove abitavate voi, si ricorda di averli visti?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, i partigiani sì, i partigiani erano dalla nostra parte eh, cavoli! Loro difendevano gli italiani, ste matti, i partigiani sì, eh. Ma pochi, pochi partigiani, più loro, più i tedeschi, e americani, dopo quando sono arrivati americani hanno pulito l’Italia proprio, mhm mhm.
GF: E lei li ha visti gli americani o non se la ricorda?
GB: Io non me lo ricordo sai, non me la ricordo, i tedeschi me la ricordo bene. I tedeschi me la ricordo bene perché passavano da quelle, loro avevano giù le taverne, le cantine, no, quelle robe, loro li facevano vedere, io non c’ho niente, non c’ho niente, ma loro da fuori vedevano io ti sparo, apri per andare giù perché [unclear] mio papà quante volte gliel’hann puntato il fucile, io ti sparo, giù cosa c’hai? Quello che [unclear] gli portavano via tutto, eh.
GF: Volevano il cibo.
GB: Eh il cibo volevano, prosciutto, vino, salami, polli se avevi polli, tutto, tutto, vitelli, maiali, tutto caricavano perché c’erano quelli che andavano per le case e c’era quello coi cani, no? Caricavano tutto, tutto caricavano.
GF: E voi avevate degli animali anche?
GB: E anche gli animali perché lui, maiali, tutte delle robe più, anche i vitelli giovani che allora costavano. Gli aveva fatto la capanna al bosco eh, perché gli caricano un vitello, gli caricano tutta la loro interesse de un anno eh, hai capito? E così, comunque l’hanno vissuta male sti vecchietti poeretti, mhm mhm.
GF: Facevate fatica a trovare da mangiare in quel periodo?
GB: E da c’era anche la tessera, davano la tessera, capisci? C’era la tessera e coi tanti figli c’era [unclear] io adesso non ti so spiegare questo, c’era la tessera, tanta roba, anche il sale era con la tessera e il latte avevano le capre tutto il più se mangiava ste bestie che erano in casa, le custodiva, ammazzavano anche i maiali eh? Perché che mangiavi? [laughs] In mancanza de altro mazzavano quello che avevano lì. Al posto de farlo portar via dai tedeschi. Eh sì.
GF: E, prima parlavamo del ponte. Il ponte poi dopo la guerra l’hanno ricostruito?
GB: Sì, sì, sì, sì. Sì, io l’ho visto costruito bene, sì, sì, sì. Sì, i due, i due comuni si sono messi d’accordo, l’hann fatto il ponte, sì. No, no, hann fatto tutto come era prima, sì.
GF: E la sua famiglia dopo la guerra ha ricominciato a fare i contadini.
GB: Fare i contadini, a fare il tabacco, che allora facevano il tabacco, facevano il grano, allora fare i contadini e mio fratello fino a che poteva ha giù na campagna che noi se riuscisse, perché lui non ha figli, è tutta in mano nostra. Si deve pagare l’ICI, si deve pagare per la terra, ha là na campagna che vale, vale soldi, molti soldi vale, e lui l’ha lavorata tanta, c’ha preso miliardi col tabacco che allora facevano il tabacco, funzionava l’agricoltura del tabacco, poi il grano, granturco, tutto il frumentone no? Eh, hanno fatto soldi, hanno una casa che è una villa lui, na villa, de tre piani, na villa, con tutta, tutta fatta grande, tutta recintata, e l’ha chiusa, pensa, e l’ha chiusa. Non sappiamo da chi darla, non sappiamo perché di case ce ne son tante abbandonate perché dopo è venuta la crisi, eh, come è stato, come non è stato, il nonno è corso dove c’era il lavoro, no? E allora, ste case sono abbandonate si può dire.
GF: E oltre ai tedeschi, si ricorda anche se vedevate dei fascisti?
GB: Io non me la ricordo questi, no, no, non me la ricordo. Da quei paesini lì non me la ricordo ma può darsi a Roma, e quelle robe lì c’erano sì i fascisti, c’erano sì, c’erano sì. Ma io non me la ricordo che parlavano di fascisti.
GF: Bene. Io la ringrazio tantissimo per la sua testimonianza bellissima.
GB: Ma che me ringrazi? Che t’ho detto quello che ho potuto.
GF: Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro?
GB: Che devo andà aggiungere? Che io sò, aggiungere, che io son partita da Lisciano Niccone il 31 gennaio del , no del duemila, 1960.
GF: E si è trasferita?
GB: E sono venuta in Lombardia. E mi sono formata la mia famiglia in Lombardia, con un figlio medico e tre nipoti [laughs]. Adesso questo l’ha registrato [laughs]?
GF: Grazie mille.
GB: [laughs] Ecco basta.
GF: Adesso stoppo.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Giuliana Birelli
Description
An account of the resource
Giuliana Birelli remembers growing up in a family of farmers in Tuscany, at a juncture in which German soldiers raided houses searching for food and harassing women. She tells various episodes: partisans actions, time spent in a makeshift shelter her father had built in a nearby wood, the fear of being hit, bombs dropped in a field during the harvest and the arrival of American soldiers. Recalls how her mother and a friend were captured by drunken German soldiers and how they managed to escape. She recollects farmers cheering at the end of the war.
Creator
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Greta Fedele
Date
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2017-12-23
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:28:17 audio recording
Language
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ita
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ABirelliG171223
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Arezzo
Italy--Perugia
Italy
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/153/1614/AKohlerH170303.2.mp3
d2f0f472887d968b2df90cc90be0d7ad
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Köhler, Helmut
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview with Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) who recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer and the breaching of the Eder dam. His recollections cover life in German bombing cities.
The collection was cataloged by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HZ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Harry Ziegler. The interviewee is Helmut Köhler. The interviewee, the interview is taking place at Mr Köhler’s home in [omitted] Kassel on the 3 of March 2017. Also Herr Köhler, dann fangen wir mal an.
HK: Ja, also geboren wurde ich am ersten August 1928 und zwar hier in Kassel, im Rotenkreuz Krankenhaus und zwar in der Hansteinstrasse 17 haben wir gewohnt, das ist im Stadteil Wehlheiden, also nicht hier, sondern im Stadteil Wehlheiden. Und da bin ich, hab ich vier, drei Schwestern gehabt, ältere Schwestern, ich bin also nur unter Frauen gross geworden und leider ist mein Vater schon gestorben als ich knapp drei Jahre war, also 1991 ist, 1891 [?] ist schon der Vater gestorben und da war die Mutter mit vier Kindern alleine und der Vater war im Studienrat weil er einen Knieschaden hatte, desshalb ist er im Ersten Weltkrieg kein Soldat geworden, er hat also im Krieg warscheinlich einen Meniskusschaden durch Fussball haben sie gespielt und heute wär das operiert worden, aber damals konnten sie das nicht und desshalb ist er kein Soldat geworden. Und da hatt er hier in Kassel im Realgymnasium eins sein Studium, sein Abitur gemacht und hatt dann auch studiert in Marburg und zwar Geschichte als Hauptfach und hat da auch promoviert. Und a, und, er stammt also aus Gudensberg und die Vorfahren, also seine Eltern und seine Grosseltern und ich weiss nicht wie viele Generationen zurück, die hatten das Baugeschäft in Gudensberg, ein Bauunternehmen und meine Mutter, die stammt aus Rellingen bei Pinneberg in Schleswig-Holstein und die haben sich kennengelernt auf einer Hochzeit [laughs] die ein Gudensberger Freund von meinem Vater und einer Pinneberger Freundin von meiner Mutter, da waren sie beide eingeladen, haben sich kennengelernt neh und so. Na ja gut und so bin ich groß geworden praktisch ohne Vater und musste natürlich dann auch zum Gymnasium, Realgymnasium eins, das hieß damals Paul-von-Hindenburg-Schule. Und bin dann eben wie gesagt vier, fünf Jahre ganz normal zur Schule gegangen und am ersten September im ’39, Ostern bin ich dahingekommen, und im ersten September ’39 began der Krieg und da waren mit einem Schlag in einer Woche die ganzen jungen Lehrer weg und da kriegten wir die alten pensionerten Lehrer und dann waren aber zum Teil Lehrer, die mit meinem Vater zusammen an der Schule gelehrt haben [laughs], das war natürlich sehr interessant, ‚ach hier das ist der kleine Heinrich‘, neh, das war ich dann, neh. So und so sind wir dann, haben wir dann Schule gemacht war ganz normal, aber dann eben wiegesagt bis ’43 und dann wurde der Luftkrieg härter, da waren schon mehr mal Angriffe hier und dann kamen wir, als Schüler mussten wir dann Luftschutzwache machen nachts in der Schule, so fünf, sechs mit einem Lehrer zusammen, kriechten wir oben im Dachgeschoss so‘n kleines Zimmerchen mit‘em Feldbett und so haben wir den Krieg kennengelernt und in der Zeit ging dann auch in ’44, neh ’43, ging dann die Edertalsperre kaput, und das haben wir sehr gut beobachtet wie die Riesenwelle Wasser kam neh, na ja gut. [sighs] Jedenfalls, dann die Sommerferien waren rum und dann wurden wir zur Erntehilfe abkommandiert, vier Wochen mussten wir den Bauern helfen, Ernte zu machen und dann kamen wir kurz in die Schule und dann war am 22 Oktober 1943 der grosse Angriff hier. Und den habe ich in der Hansteinstrasse mitgemacht, wo ich geboren wurde. Und das war wirklich grauenhaft, also was ich da in den Keller so erlebt habe, auch die einzelnen Menschen, die da alle sassen, viel ältere Frauen und auch ein Paar Männer, ein hoher Offizier, der hier beim Generalkommando beschäftigt war der hat da immer ein bisschen beruhigt und so, also, es war schon grauenhaft, die eine Frau, die hat nur dauernd gesungen, vor lauter Anstrengung, und die andere die hat nur gebetet und so, und meine Mutter hat ganz still gesessen da, Hände gefaltet und dann gingen durch die detonierten Bomben dann gingen, flogen dann die Kellerfenster rein und dann, also er war grauenhaft. Na ja, und dann ist unser Haus nicht abgebrannt da sondern auch ein Paar Nebenhaüser und da hab ich mitgelöscht so und dann. Ja und dann waren die Schulen in Kassel alle kaputt, so und da haben wir drei Wochen, haben wir uns gefreut, hurrah die Schule brennt, uns gefreut alle, und so nach drei, vier Wochen dann haben wir dann doch bisschen im Zweifel geguckt und sind wir mal zu unser alten Schule gegangen, da war die ein riesen Trümmerhaufen aber die Kellergewölbe die waren noch da und da hatte die Schulsekretärin ihr Büro eingerichtet im Keller und da hatt‘se dann gesagt: ‘Jungs, also, Schule wird’s nicht mehr geben in Kassel’ und so war’s dann auch. Da wurden nach dem grossen Angriff, da sind ja etwa zehntausend Menschen umgekommen, und die ganze Altstadt, alles ein Trümmerhaufen, also es war grauenhaft neh und da sind die ganzen jungen Mütter mit ihren Kindern in einer Woche alle aus Kassel weggeschickt worden, die kamen alle in irgendwelche Lager, die Organisation die war damals schon wirklich klasse neh. So, und wir kamen in ein verlassenes Arbeitsdienstlager nach Bracht, bei Marburg liegt das, das war so alles ein Arbeitsdienstlager mit Baracken und da kamen wir alle rein.
HZ: Ist es Bracht mit B?
HK: Bracht mit B, R, A.
HZ: Ja.
HK: So etwa neh. Ich bin nachher nie wieder da gewesen. So und dann schliefen wir in den Hut, in den grossen Baracken da, zwanzig Leute gingen da glaub ich rein, dann immer zwei Lehrer dabei, die schliefen auf Strohsäcken dann und so und dann am Tag hatten wir da ein bisschen Schule und dann kriegten wir irgendwie die Nachricht das wir zur, als Luftwaffenhelfer eingezogen wurden und wir konnten dann nach Hause also im Dezember 1944, konnten wir, die wir bald eingezogen wurden, schon nach Hause. Und dann am fünften Januar mussten wir antreten Schule [unclear] Schule mit einem Papkarton und da stand da genau drinn was man da alles mitbringen durften, zwei Unterhosen, und ein Paar Socken, alles so was [laughs]. Und dann wurden wir auf’n LKW geladen und da stand da drauf:’Eltern durften nicht da mit’ oder so änlich wurde das da bezeichnet und von meinem Freund Erich, der mit mir grossgeworden ist, die Mutter die war klever, die ist dann hinter uns her gegangen wo wir zum, und wo wir auf der einen Seite von dem LKW standen dann ist sie auf der anderen Seite durch so’n Buschwerk und hat den Fahrer geholt und hat gesagt:’Hören Sie mal, wo fahren Sie den hin, mein Sohn ist hier bei’. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Nach Heiligenrode’ und da wusste, wusste meine Mutter, hatte gleich Bescheid, wussten die zumindest wo wir Jungen hinkamen. Und da sind wir furchtbar ausgebildet worden, also furchtbar, jeden Tag acht Stunden und das im Januar bei Wind und Wetter und da wurden wir auch fast alle krank und erkältet und alles sowas. Und dann so nach’m viertel Jahr wurden wir eingesetzt und auf, ach so und dann fragte dann der Hauptmann, der Kommandeur, der war im Zivilberuf war der Studienrat und zwar in Matte, Mathematik [laughs] und der fragte dann:’was wollen Sie werden?’ Wir waren ja alle per Sie plötzlich mit fuffzehn Jahren und was wollen sie werden, was wollen Sie [unclear] , und da habe ich gesagt:‘Baumeister, Herr Hauptmann, Baumeister’. ‚Umwertung‘, das war also wo die Zielwege aufgezeichnet wurden, das wurde viel mit Zeichnung das war natürlich was neh. Und ein anderer Klassenkamerad der sagte: ‚ich will Elektroingenieur werden‘, der kam zum Funkmessgerät, das war der Vorgänger vom Radargerät, und so hatten manche schon Vorstellung und die die gar nix wussten die kamen zur Kannonen [laughs] na ja und so wurden wir dann ausgebildet. Und ja und so ging das weiter bis zum, also Januar bis etwa Juni und da wurden wir verlegt von der Flakstellung Heiligenrode zu der Flakstellung Niederkaufungen, da war nämlich ein grosses Heeresdepot und zum Schutz von diesem Depot wurde oben auf dem Berg, das ist heute noch hier, Papierfabrik heisst das, Richtung Kaufungen wenn se da mal [unclear], da waren wir zum Schutz da, so und dann war immer Fliegeralarm aber es passierte nix und da haben wir von der Umwertung, wir mussten auch Sperrfeuer schiessen und das wurde von der Umwertung aus gemacht, das war das Flug-Malsigerät, das war so’n, [unclear] und manchmal wurde Sperrfeuer geschossen, den das Vermessen der Entfernung war sehr schwierig damals neh, am Tag ging das durch die vier-meter Basis, aber am nachts war das schwierig. Und das war in der ganzen, in dem ganzen halben Jahr vorher nicht einmal passiert. Und da bin ich mit’m Paar die den Zielweg nicht aufzeichnen brauchten [unclear] Malsigerät wir haben oben zugeguckt wie da die Flak geschossen hat und da ist wohl das Stichwort gekommen Sperrfeuer und unsere Batterie hat das nicht gemacht weil ich net da war und meine Kumpels. Und da simma nächsten Tag wurde eine zbV Batterie aufgebraut und dann kam der Hauptmann schon auf mich zu und ’Sie wissen ja warum sie jetzt versetzt werden’. Da kam ich zur zbV Batterie mit vierleutenarme [?] und da wurden wir dann umgeschult, sollten wir eigentlich nach Breslau, [clears throat] und da haben wir schon das [unclear] gepackt und alles neh und da kamen kurz davor in der Doppelbaracke da war die andere Seite, da war der Oberleutnant, der Batteriechef und der telefonierte plötzlich, da haben wir alle gehorcht und da hatt er gesagt:’Wunderbar! Ist ja wunderbar! Herrlich! Toll!’ und so und da kam er gleich zu uns rüber: ‘Wir fahren nicht nach Breslau, das ist eingenommen worden von Russen’. Und dann kamen wir zur 12,8-Batterie, wurden wir umgeschult, nach Maronhüls [?], da in diesen ehemaligen,
HZ: Wie heisst das?
HK: [unclear] hiess das Nest, das Dorf, [unclear] ist eine grosse Stadt in das [unclear] gebiet da am Rand und da war eine V2-Herstellungs, so ‘ne Fabrik, die das herstellten oder auch schossen oder wie das war. Und die wurden da immer, wenn Flieger kamen, Feinde, da wurde das eingenebelt neh. Und dann wurden wir ausgebildet an den Kannonen und eines Tages da flogen mehrere Kannonen in die Luft durch Rohrkrepierung, das war also Sabotage von Munitionsfabriken, haben irgendwelche Fehler eingebaut.
HZ: Haben dann bei Ihnen waren da auch Russische Hiwis oder waren da auch andere in den Flak?
HK: Ja, waren da [unclear] dabei, Russische weniger, aber italiener, diese Badoglio-Truppen,
HZ: Ja.
HK: Diese von dem abgesprungenen General Badoglio neh, oder Serben glaub ich und so was, die wurden dann da beschäftigt. Und irgend einer hat da warscheinlich so was erfunden dass das und da krepierten in ganz Deutschland bei der 12,8 die Granaten und da hatten sie keine Kanonen mehr. Da kamen wir wieder nach Kassel, hier oben in Welhheiden da haben wir in so einer Baracke gewohnt vierzehn Tage oder was und dann kriegten wir den Einsatzbefehl zur Vierlingsflak Umschulung am Edersee auf der Talsperre. Die war wieder hergestellt, die war ja kaputt, wissen Sie das durch die Ballbombe,
HZ: Ja, die rolling bombs.
HK: Die da rotierte neh, das war ne ganz, technisch ne ganz tolle Sache neh, da muss ich wirklich sagen also war schon klasse aber als wir hinkamen war die schon wieder zugemauert, also das war für mich als Baumensch ein riesige Leistung innerhalb vom Jahr, oder halbes Jahr was die das alles fertigmachen, so sieht’s heute noch aus, ist da nachgemacht worden.
HZ: Wir sind da mal da gewesen, ja.
HK: Also das ist also eine riesige Leistung gewesen, wie die das alle gemacht haben, das weiss ich net, jedenfalls dann wurden wir auf der Vierling, da hatten wir oben auf der Mauer da war so’n holz, Holztürmchen aufgebaut da standen vier, drei Vierlingsflak [laughs] und da soll’n wir nun, wurden wir ausgebildet. So und dann am zwanzigsten, so und dann weil wir vier Kasselaner waren dann wurden wir immer weggeschickt zum Kurierdienst weil man der, Autos gab’s ja nicht, sie mussten also die Kurierpost, die musste zur Heeresgruppe, zur Luftwaffengruppe, des war hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke hier in Kassel und da konnten sie an einem Tage nicht mit der Bahn hinfahren und wieder zurückkommen und da haben sie uns vier Kasseler immer eingeteilt, da konnten wir zuhause schlafen. Und da hatten wir das natürlich wunderbar. Und [unclear] ich mal wieder wegblicken, Anfang Februar oder irgend, Mitte Februar war das, da sagte mir der Schreibstubenbulle da, sagte:’Hör mal, wenn du jetzt nach hause gehst bring dir mal ein Paar Zivilklammotten mit’. Ich sag:’warum dann das?’. Das habe ich dann gemacht und dann zwei Tage später bei der Befehlsausgabe, da sagte der Hauptmann: ‘Wer hat Zivilsachen mit?’ Ich, Herr Hauptmann’, ‘morgen Abmarsch’ und da war die Entlassung hier neh. 20 Februar 1944 wurde ich von der Flak entlassen, ich war der erste [laughs], werde ich nie vergessen. Na ja, und dann war ich ein Paar Tage zuhause und da kriegte ich die Einberufung da, die hatte ich ja schon und dann hatten wir den Angriff hier etwa, ich weiss des Datum leider net mehr, am zweiten März oder irgendsowas, muss jetzt, grade jetzt auf die Zeit [unclear] muss das gewesen sein,
HZ: Ich hab mir.
HK: Da ist das Haus getroffen worden und ich war da zu Hause und da war ich mit ein Paar Freunden in einem Bunker.
HZ: Ja?
HK: Das erste Mal in meinem Leben in einen Bunker gewesen, weil da einer Musik machte, da war immer so’n bisschen was los. Und da kam ein Junge rein der sagte: ‘Helmut, stell dir mal vor, bei euch da in der Strasse brennt’s wie verrückt’. Und da bin ich raus, der Luftschutzwache wollte mich net raus lassen, da hab ich ihn weggeschoben, das war mich ganz egal [unclear] und da kam ich hin polterte die treppe hoch so, kurz vor mir ist die Holztreppe eingekracht, desshalb würde ich heute als Baumensch nie eine Holztreppe bauen, immer ne Betontreppe [laughs]. So und da stand ich unten und sah wie aus unserem Wohnzimmer, unserem Herrenzimmer die Flammen [unclear] schlugen und ich konnte nix machen. Da guckte ich so an mir runter da hatte ich Hose an und Schuhe an, keinen Kamm, keine Zahnbürste, da kam ich mir vor wie der ärmste Mensch den’s gibt auf der Welt, wirklich dieses Gefühl, das habe ich schon meinen Kindern erzählt, das war furchtbar, da stand ich da ach Gott, mein Wintermantel der hängt da an der Gardrobe, alles so und kam ich da gar net dran, das war eine furchtbare Nacht. Da bin ich mit meinen Freund, der war auch zufällig da, und da sind wir in den Keller, haben das bisschen was Mutter so’n Paar Koffer und so was, haben wir dann raus auf die Strasse gestellt, na ja und das haben wir dann, haben wir später mit einem Pferdefuhrwerk geholt und alles nach Gudensberg geschafft zu Verwandten.
HZ: Ja, die Geschichte wo Sie da noch zur Stadtkommandantur gegangen sind [unclear] mir erzählt haben.
HK: Ja, das ist da passiert.
HZ: Ja, die könnense noch amal für das Band erzählen.
HK: Ja, gut und da hatte ich ja di Einberufung und dann, so die hatte ich ja vorher schon deshalb bin ich ja bei der Flak entlassen worden, und dann einberufen sollte ich werden, das glaub ich am 6 März oder irgendwas sollte ich da antanzen und am zweiten oder so dann passierte der Bombenangriff und da hat der Onkel gesagt, neh, richtig, der Onkel hat gesagt:’Neh, das geht net, da kannste net weg’, ich sage:’Was mache ich den jetzt?’ ‚Ja dann, geh doch mal zur Ostkommandantur’, und da bin ich dann nach Kassel, ich glaub sogar gelaufen, [unclear] viele Stunden, und dann war die Geschichte ja mit der Ostkommandantur, wo ich draussen stand der Posten und da sagte ich, ‘Luftwaffenoberhelfer Koeler hier der will zum Ostkommandanten sprechen’, [laughs] das ich überhaupt den Mut hatte da staune ich heute noch, und wo er dann, wo ich dann sagte: ‘Ich bitte da um ein Paar Tage Urlaub, meine Mutter ist alleine und wir haben ein Paar Sachen rausgeholt aus’m Keller, die stehen da alle noch und ich muss, meine schwangere Schwester kann auch net helfen und so neh, und dann hat er dann gesagt also, na ja, mich mitleidig angeguckt und da hat er gesagt: ‘Na ja, melden sich in acht Tagen wieder’. ‘Jawohl!’ Und dann bin ich dann los und dann hat der Onkel gefragt: ‘Hat er überhaupt gefragt wo du wohnst?’, da hab ich gesagt: ‘neh’, ‚das ist gut, da gehst du nicht mehr hin‘. Und dann haben wir den englischen Rundfunk gehört abends, ‘Hier ist England, Hier ist England’. Und dann habe ich dann nun, haben wir dann nun bald erfahren wo die Amerikanischen Truppen, die sind dann in Remagen über’m Rhein weg, und dann waren sie schon über Frankfurt weg, und dann sagte der Onkel: ‘Das dauert keine zwei Wochen dann sind die hier’, und es stimmte auch. Am ersten April waren die ersten Amis in Gudensberg. Und so bin ich davongekommen. Und vorher hatte ich noch, da hatte mich mit so’n Mädchen da getroffen, standen wir so im Hauseingang, Ich konnte ja nur abends weggehen, am Tage lies mich der Onkel net raus, da kam einer plötzlich [makes a noise] stand einer neben mir, guckte mich an, sagte: ‘Bist Du den verrückt?’, der dachte ich wäre so’n Desertierter, er war nämlich auch einer. ‚du stellst dich hier hin, eben haben’se drei da oben erschossen‘, die haben’se erwischt neh, und da wurde es mir natürlich unheimlich, da bin ich auch abends weggegangen. Ja und bis die Amerikaner kamen. Das war ein Karfreitag, erster April 1945 [laughs], Karfreitag war das. Und die Tante hatte vorher schon ein bisschen Kuchen gebacken und dann sassen wir dann am Küchentisch und haben Kuchen gegessen. Auf einmal klopft es an der Haustür. Da kamen die ersten Amerikanischen Soldaten. Vor jedem Haus hielt ein, wie nannten die sich diese drei-achsler?, LKWs, na ja gut, weiss jetzt nimmer, und da sassen immer zehn Mann drauf, Amerikaner und im jedem Haus kam da Einquartierung und da mussten die Zivilleute alle raus. Und da kam der Unteroffizier oder was er da war, weiss ich net, der kam als erste sah mich an: ‘Raus!’, so ‘Raus!’. Da sag ich: ‘Moment muss ich Schuhe anziehen‘, zieh am ende Schuhe, dann kam ich die Treppe da runter und da standen zwei mit der MP und haben sie mich abgeführt zum Ostkommandanten. Und da war so’n netter kleiner Dolmetscher und der fragte: ‘Warum sind sie kein Soldat?’ Sag ich: ‘Ich war bei, als Luftwaffenhelfer’. Konnte er nix mit anfagen. [unclear] Und diesen Luftwaffenhelferausweis den hatte ich in der Tasche und dann wollte ich ihn zeigen und da fiel er vor lauter Aufregung fiel mir da hin, da war der schneller da und, ‘Ach!’ sagte ‘jetzt weiss ich was sie waren’. Da ist er zu seinem Boss hingegangen, zu dem Kolonel oder, neh Kolonel war er net, also der Offizier neh, und da kam der raus und dann guckte der mich an. This fellow is [unclear], ab und da bin ich auch schnell nach hause und so bin ich davongekommen. Draussen standen dann da, die haben sie alle aufgesammelt, die verwundet waren, Verwundetenurlaub und so und die sind dann alle nach Frankreich abgeschoben worden. Mussten ein Jahr im Bergwerk arbeiten und so. Ich bin da davongekommen. Das war meine Zeit in Gudensberg und da war ich eben fünf Jahre in Gudensberg, Fussball gespielt und so, das war eine schöne Zeit, aber in Kassel gab’s keine Schulen, des erste halbe Jahr gab’s nix. Und mein Freund hier, der Erich, der ist in Kassel weiter geblieben und der hat mich immer mal besucht in Gudensberg und der sagte eines Tages: ‘Helmut, im Herbst geht die Schule wieder los‘, die Albert-Schweitzer Schule, hier in der Kölnischen Strasse, die hiess damals Adolf Hitler Schule während des Krieges [laughs], und der sagte der Rektor da das ist der Ale Witschi [?], der mal zu uns in der Flakstellung kam und mit dem habe ich jetzt mal gesprochen über dich und der hatte gesagt ich sollte mal kommen, sollte mal gucken, der hätte einen Plan für mich. Da bin ich dann hingegangen, habe einen Ausbildungschef gefragt, hier ‚n Meister, darf ich da mal dahingehen? Ja selbstverständlich. Und da hat er gesagt: ‘Gut, zwei Tage Schule haben wir in der Woche. Und in den zwei Tagen kannste zur Schule gehen und die anderen vier Tage, weil ja Sonnabend auch ein Arbeitstag war, da gehste in die Lehre. Frag mal deinen Lehrmeister ob er das macht.
HZ: Und was haben sie da für eine Lehre gemacht?
HK: Maurerlehrer.
HZ: Maurerlehrer.
HK: So ich war im Baugeschäft, und meine Mutter stammte auch aus dem Baugeschäft, also für mich gab’s gar nichts anderes, ich war, begeistert bin ich heute noch. Ich wollte Baumeister werden, was das damals war weiss ich net, aber das wollte ich ja einfach werden und da musste ich, ja Schule gab’s nicht mehr und da hab ich gesagt, jeden Tag beim Onkel Stall misten wollte ich auch net, ich will Lehre machen und so. So ist das gekommen. Und die Tochter von dem Bauunternehmer hier in Kassel, die war eine Freundin von meiner ältesten Schwester. Also wir kannten die, die Familie kannte sich persönlich sowieso. Nun dann bin ich zum Vitrokin [?], das war der Rektor, der Kommissarische Rektor von der Schule und der hat mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel den der kam in unser Flakschirm das hat man auch Unterricht gekriegt [unclear] Flakschirm weil wir Schüler waren neh und dann hatt er manchmal gesagt [unclear]:’Ach Jungs, habt ihr noch mal, nimmt mal eine Tasse Kaffee für mich’ Und dann kam so, alles zu Fuss, [unclear] und der war wie’n Kumpel für uns, das war der Lehrer, und dann hat er mich begrüsst wie ein alter Kumpel da neh, sagte mach dein Lehrmeister einen Vorschlag und da machste bis Ostern das und dann kriegste das Zeugnis der Mittleren Reife, das hatte ich auch net, hatte ich nix, Schule kaputt, und so haben wir das gemacht. Dann bin ich zwei Tage zu Schule gegangen, richtig noch Latein und Matte und alles sowas neh und dann habe ich so ein Einheitszeugnis, so gross, stand ‘Alles befriedigt’ [laughs]. Na ja gut, und das ist meine Schulausbildung gewesen, kein Abitur gemacht, gar nix. Na ja, und dann habe ich dann studiert, habe ich dann meine Maurerlehre gemacht, an der staatlichen Ingenieurschule beworben, und das war ja auch so tragisch. Da musste zwei Tage Aufnahmeprufung sein neh, mit dem bisschen Wissen was ich da aus der Schule hatte und dann waren, dreisig haben, wolltense aufnehmen, und driehundertsechsig Bewerber kamen da in die Schule am Königstor als Offiziere und hatten noch ihre Offiziersmäntel an und so weil wir nix kaufen konnten [unclear]. Und da bin ich natürlich mit Glanz und Gloria auch durchgefallen. Und da habe ich mich auf die Hose gesetzt. Mit einem Freund aus Gudensberg zusammen, den Roman [unclear], der stammte aus Litauen, der war da Flüchtling, und da haben wir da richtig gepauckt. Hier neben uns da wohnte der Doktor Enders, Mathematik, Studienrat, war’n Kollege, Freund von meinem Vater, genau hier in der Parallelwohnung in der [unclear] und der hat uns dann Mathe beigebracht. Plötzlich viel es mir wie Schuppen von den Augen, plözlich konnte ich ne Gleichung mit zwei Unbekannten, das war gar kein Problem mehr. Und so bin ich dann zur zweiten Prüfung ein halbes Jahr später und da hab ich’s bestanden und so hab ich meine Paar Semester, fünf, sechs Semester glaub ich, [unclear] Ausbildung
HZ: Gemacht.
HK: So ist das geworden. Und dann fanden wir keine Arbeit und so. Und dann bin ich da mit einem Kollegen hier rumgelaufen ob als Maurer ein bisschen Geld verdienen konnten, als Maurer kriegten’se [unclear] Arbeit das war ’52.
HZ: Das war [unclear].
HK: Das war ganz ganz schlimm neh. Und dann hatte ich durch einen Onkel, der war in Bielefeld Stadtrat und der hat mir vermittelt beim Bielefelder Tiefbeamt eine Aushilfstelle für einviertel Jahr und habe auch bei denen gewohnt, es waren so Industrielle die haben da heute noch so Fabriken und so was Graustoffwerk und da hatten sie aber keine Planstelle und mittlerweile habe ich mich beworben bei einer Hamburger Firma die ein Onkel von mir kannte weil der Besitzer, der Vater von dem jetzigen Besitzer er war, war ein Studienkollege von meinem Ober, so hat sich das ergeben. Und die bauten Helgoland wieder auf, weil Helgoland ja ein Abwurfgebiet von der Britischen Armee war nach’m Kriege, da haben sie X Bomben ausprobiert, die ganze Insel Helgoland die war praktisch unbewohnbar, Blindgänger und die mussten wir, wurde praktisch umgepflügt die ganze Insel, drei meter da weggetragen und dahingepackt und da gingen natürlich immer die Blindgänger und die Bomben hoch. Die Bagger die hatten solche Stahlplatten davor, das der Fahrer net verletzt wurde. Und kurz davor kriegt ich ein Telegramm, das habe ich übrigens noch, nächste Woche nicht, Telefon gab’s ja gar net, nicht nach Helgoland sondern Mönchengladbach. So, Telefonummer aufgeschrieben, da bin ich nach Mönchengladbach gefahren da kriegte, hatte die Firma einen grossen Auftrag gekriegt, das englische Hauptquartier, das Hauptverwaltungsgebaüde, das steht übrigens heute noch, da habe ich auch jetzt ein Bild gefunden noch davon und das hatte ja zweitausendzweihundert und so und soviele Zimmer, Britische Rheinarmee. Und das habe ich, da war ich Bauführer nannte sich damals. Waren wir drei Mann und hatten teilweise bis vierhundert Leute beschäftigt. Britische Rheinarmee hiess das glaub ich. Und da habe ich auch die Einweihung mitgemacht, da haben wir noch, vorne in den Haupteingang, in dem Pfeiler, da haben wir noch eine Kassette eingemauert die muss heute noch [unclear] sein, sind noch warscheinlich noch Namen die ich noch merkte, ich weiss es nimmer so genau, mit ne silbernen Kelle haben wir da [unclear]. Und das war meine Grösse und auch eine, da habe ich viel gelernt [unclear]. Ganze drei Jahre war ich da. Das war sehr interessant und da habe ich mit einem Englischen Pionieroffizier viel zu tun gehabt neh, das waren die die eher kein Deutsch konnten. Und ein Ziviloffizier der war mittlerweile dann, er war früher auch bei den Pionieren gewesen und der war dann entlassen worden wegen Alter, der war dann schon Ende fuffzig oder irgendwas, und der wollte noch als Zivilingenieur und der schlief auch in einer Barakke von uns und dem haben wir auch Skatspielen beigebracht.
HZ: [laughs]
HK: Und dann haben wir auch mit dem die Weltmeisterschaften damals wo Deutschland Weltmeister 1954, da hatten wir noch kein Fernsehen und alles so was. Da hat er mit uns geguckt, da haben wir auf’n Stuhlen gestanden und [laughs], na ja und das war der mister Webster und der hat mich so ein bisschen aufgeklärt, der sagte, hören sie mal Herr Koehler, der sprach ganz gut Deutsch, weil er eine Deutsche Frau hatte aus Aachen und der sagte: ‚Die können bestimmt auch Deutsch‘, und da habe ich mal irgendwie was falsch verstanden und da hat er mich zur Rede gestellt. Mister Buru, was er für einen [unclear] hatte weiss ich nicht, Major, Major Buru, und da habe ich gesagt: ‚so Major Buru‘, habe ich in Deutsch dann gesagt, ab jetzt kann ich kein Englisch mehr‘ und da hat er gelacht und da kam der mister Webster dazu und da haben die ein bisschen gequatscht und seit dem haben wir nur noch Deutsch gesprochen und mit den anderen Kollegen genauso [laughs]. Das war nun meine Zeit mit den Engländern und ich wollte immer nochmal nach’m Kriege hin, nach der Zeit hin, aber ich bin nie wieder dahingekommen. Es muss heute noch da und wenn sie mal da in der Nähe sind, Mönchengladbach, Ortsteil Hardter Wald, das ist ja’n Riesenbezirk, das sind ja, das ist hier wie ‚ne Stadt, da lebten fast zwanzigtausend Menschen, da gab’s Schulen und für die Offiziere, und Offizierskasino und Kino und Theater und da haben wir mehrere Baustellen gehabt, das war meine schönste Zeit so mit
HZ: Aus [unclear]
HK: Und von da aus sollte ich dann nach Berlin da kriegtense in Berlin ‚n Auftrag, und weil wir nun damals für das Englische Hauptquartier bauten, da waren wir für die DDR Feinde. Das war der Karl Eduard von Schnitzler hiess der, Sudel-Ede hiess der, der brachte so politische Kommentare jeden Tag, das war so’n Richter. Ich weiss nicht ob sie den Namen schon
HZ: Den Namen kenn ich noch ja.
HK: Eduard von Schnitzler, der Sudel-Ede hiess er bei uns, und der hat da mal gesagt: ‘Es gibt sogar Deutsche die für die feindlichen Truppen heute noch bauen’ und da haben wir sogar, wurden die Namen genannt, unsere drei Namen. Und ich hab’s selber net gehört, das haben sie von Hauptbüro aus Hamburg habense uns das gesagt, also hütet euch, die Verbindungsstrasse zu fahren zwischen Helmstedt und Berlin, [unclear] vielleicht festgenommen. Und dann sollte ich nach Berlin, da hätten wir nun fliegen können von Hannover aus und da hab ich dann hier alles mögliche mobil gemacht hier in Kassel neh. Durch so‘n befreundeten Architekten, dann kriegte ich dann ‚ne Stelle bei einem Architekten hier und von da aus, na ja, das interessiert sie jetzt [unclear]. Und so bin ich nachher bei der Stadt gelandet, bei der Stadt Kassel und hab für die die Kläranlage, das war der erste grosse Massnahme, die Kläranlage baute, seit dem haben sie mich übernommen und da war ich naher auch in zwanzig Jahren Sachgebietsleiter vom Brucken und [unclear] Bau. Wenn sie jetzt über eine Brücke fahren ist alles so [laughs]
HZ: [laughs] kann ich sagen.
HK: Na ja gut das ist mein Lebenslauf.
HZ: Ehm, so, weil sie schon mal angefangen, angesprochen haben mit dem Bombenangriff auf Kassel, was denken sie eigentlich wären so prägende Erlebnisse gewesen die sie vielleicht auch heute noch beschäftigen?
HK: Ja, die mich heute noch beschäftigen, ich seh’s jetzt erstmal vom baulichen Standpunkt her. Die ganze Altstadt, die aus‘m Mittelalter noch stammt, die ist mit einem Schlag innerhalb zwei Stunden war alles kaputt und zehntausend Menschen in den Kellern, so, und die haben einen schönen Tod gehabt. Die sind an Sauerstoffmangel eingeschlafen. Den Keller hat wir ja früher net met waagerechten Decken gemacht sondern es waren nur Gewölbe, sonst ging aus staatlichen Gründen net anders neh. Und da sind die eingeschlafen, die sind regelrecht gebacken worden, oben bis auf diesen brennenden Schutt rauf und dieses Gewölbe war wie Backofen beim Bäcker. Da sind die zusammengeschrumpft so wie wir, wir wären plötzlich so gross gewesen, dieses ganze Wasser wäre verdampft neh. Die haben eigentlich einen sehr schönen Tod gehabt. Entschuldige wenn ich das so sage heute, das will ja keiner hören. Die sind eingeschlafen, Sauerstoffmangel, eingeschlafen und nie wieder aufgewacht. Und sind gebacken worden. Denn Ich habe die ja nachher gesehen wo sie aus den Kellergewölben rausgeholt wurden, von Gefangenen her, die ehemaligen Nazis und die mussten die da rausholen. Nach’m Kriege und so neh.
HZ: Sind da eigentlich beim raümen weil sie da auch dabei waren, sind da auch Zwangsarbeiter und Kriegs, wie heiss’ns, Kriegsgefangene eingesetzt worden?
HK: Ja diese, Kriegsgefangene, waren da auch. Das will ich noch mal kurz sagen. Die Flakstellung wo wir waren bei der Flak. Ich war nun bei der Umwertung, und der, war mein Schulfreund hier und der Elektrofritze da, wir hatten zuhause, der Mann, der Ober der war schon ein grosser Elektroindustrielle und so, Funkmessgerät und so. Und wennse zur, an’s Geschutz kamen, da war, drei Kannoniere waren Luftwaffenhelfer, die stellten diese Messgeräte an, wir konnten das ja viel besser als die Soldaten die vorher da waren, weil wir schneller und pfiffiger waren neh, das waren drei Luftwaffenhelfer an jeder eine Kannone, die die Breitengrade, Höhengrade und die Entfernung eingestellt haben und der Ladekannonier das war ein Deutscher und die Zureichen die Munition, das waren meistens Russische Kriegsgefangene. Müssen sich das vorstellen, die saßen, oder Französische, die saßen mit uns in dem kleinen Wald da neh und haben gebibbert. Dann habe ich dann auch von denen die, zum Teil Deutsch, hattense immer Hunger und dann kriegten sie von uns immer eine Scheibe Brot neh und alles so was. Wir hatten ein gutes Verhältnis mit denen, das war das mit den Kriegsgefangenen und die waren natürlich auch viele in der Industrie hier in Kassel, in Kassel hatten wir die Junkerswerke und so,
HZ: Da hätten [unclear] der Fieseler.
HK: Fieseler und so. Und auch die Munition herstellten [unclear] war früher neh und so und deshalb war ja auch die Flak hier rings rum und so. Ja und so haben wir viel mit den Kriegsgefangenen, wie viel da nun tot gegangen sind hier in der Stadt, die wohnten ja net hier in so, die wohnten immer ausserhalb in so Lagern, desshalb sind net allzu viele da umgekommen von den Kriegsgefangenen.
HZ: Nöh, ich hab bloß, ob die dann auch eingesetzt, ob die dann auch eingesetzt wurden beim raümen. Ich hatte da, ich hatte da von dem, da hatt schon mal einer Überlebensberichte veröffentlicht ‚93, die habe ich mir mal angeguckt und da sind auch zumindestens zwei Holländer und ein Franzose dabei. Aber, weil halt dann die Zeitungen hier, die Regionalzeitungen, die fragen ja dann schon nach Zuschriften, aber weil das ja dann immer bloß regional gemacht wird, da kriegt man ja dann immer bloß die Deutschen Stimmen,
HK: Richtig. Richtig, genau. Richtig.
HZ: Die von dem anderen, da hört man ja nix und das wär natürlich auch mal interessant.
HK: Nein also Holländer waren viele, Kriegsgefangene Holländer waren viele hier in Kassel. Und hier eine kleine Episode wo wir aus dem Keller mit meinen Freunden, aus dem, irgendwo brannte es, aus dem Keller haben wir dann die Paar Sachen rausgeholt, die lagen tagelang, vier, fünf Tage auf der Strasse, da hat keiner was geklaut oder irgendwas neh. Und dann wo wir dann mit dem Pferdewagen hier nach Kassel kamen und haben das dann abgeholt wollen, da war mitten in der Strasse, also die Hansteinstrasse, die Uferstrasse ist, genau in der mitte der Strasse war ein Riesenbombentrichter. Wir konnten also mit dem Wagen garnet zu unserm Haus finden.
HZ: Ja.
HK: Es war nur so’n schmaler Streifen an dem Vorgarten links und da hätten wir die ganzen Sachen da vorne an die Hauptstrasse bringen müssen, wo der Wagen stand, und da bin ich unten in die Hauptstrasse rein und da kam mal zwei Männer und da sag ich:, kommt mal her, wollt ihr mir da ein bisschen helfen?‘, das waren Holländer und die haben mir geholfen diese Sachen dahin und da habense so’ne Flasche Wein also von meinem Vater her, der hatte noch so‘n Weinschrank und da waren noch ein Paar Flaschen Wein drin und da hab ich ihnen eine gegeben und eine habense mir noch geklaut, das hab ich aber erst später gemerkt aber das hab ich ja eingesehen, das war schon richtig neh und so und das waren Holländer. Die haben mir dann geholfen. Also die liefen dann hier rum, so Freizeit, haben net dauernd gearbeitet, aber wie das war weiss ich net. Also über diese Verhaltnisse weiss ich eigentlich wenig Bescheid, die waren nur da, aber was se sonst so gemacht haben weiss ich net.
HZ: Da hat’s, ’95, die haben mal eine Wiedervereinigung hier gemacht, da haben sich welche hier in Kassel sogar wieder, wieder getroffen. Aber wie gesagt, die, man hört halt die Stimmen, man hört halt immer bloß die, also die Deutsch waren und auch hier im Gebiet geblieben sind, weil ich glaube das da einer in Bad Nauheim zum Beispiel die Hannoversche Allgemeine liesst, die werden, da gib’s halt dann keine Zuschrifften, desswegen habe ich da bloß immer so, so gefragt.
HK: Also es gab ja viele persönliche Schicksale auch neh, das auch sich Freundschaften gebildet haben. Zum Beispiel hier hatte mein Onkel in Gudensberg, der kriegte einen Polnischen Kriegsgefangenen, so als Hilfe, und das war ein Polnischer Student, war ein hochintelligenter Kerl, Jurek hiess er, und der hatte vorher noch nie was mit Landwirtschaft zu tun gehabt, der musste da milken lernen und so, der hatte es sehr gut beim Onkel, der durfte nur net am Tisch sitzen, sondern der musste am Küchentisch, da wurde so’ne Platte rausgeschoben, da sass der. Und mit dem bin ich dann zusammen auf’n Acker und hab gehackt und so und da hab ich ihm die Deutsche Grammatik beigebracht, das wollte er gerne wissen und ich hab da auch die Polnische Grammatik mitgekriegt, also das war aüsserst interessant. Und die Geschichte, er interessierte sich für alles, also war schon interessant neh. Hatten ne richtige Freundschaft geschlossen neh, der war nur zehn Jahre älter oder was, aber trotzdem. Und der ist auf einem Polnischen Zerstörer Soldat gewesen und da kamen die Stukas gleich am ersten oder zweiten Tag und haben den versenkt in der Ostsee und da haben sich ganze drei Mann retten können und er konnte gut schwimmen und hatt dann, durch’s schwimmen hatt er dann sich’s Leben gerettet. Und dadurch das er nun gut Deutsch konnte und sehr intelligent war, ist er in dem Polnischen Reisebüro Orbis nachher angestellt gewesen, in Danzig, neh in Posen glaub ich war das, neh Danzig, Stettin, entschuldigung, es ist, so ist das heute mit dem alten Kopf, Stettin. Und der hat mich hier mehrmals besucht. Der war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier in Deutschland sich bewegen durfte und der hat die Deutschen Reisegruppen, die wurden an der Grenze abgefangen und dann, die mussten ja alles ohne Aufsicht neh und wenn ne Deutsche Reisegruppe war, dann haben sie ihn eingeteilt weil er auch Deutsch konnte und wenn hier eine Reisegruppe aus Kassel kam, dann hatt er gesagt: ‚Sie kommen aus Kassel?‘, ‚Ja‘ ,Kennen sie Helmut Koehler?‘ ‚Nöh‘. Dann hatt er ihn die Telephonnummer gegeben, ja da hatte ich schon Telephon richtig, Anfang der 60er Jahre oder wann das war, ändert doch, ja so ungefähr, was soll denn, und da hatt er gesagt: ‚Rufen sie an wenn sie jetzt zuhause sind‘. Und da kriegt ich da X Telephongespräche hier von allen möglichen Leuten, ich soll sie grussen vom Yurek, [laughs] war schon interessant. Und dann kam er dann wirklich mal an und hat, er war der erste Polnische Reisende der hier nach Deutschland kommen konnte. Und dann kam er hier an, hatte vorher angerufen, war meine Frau da, die kannte den Jurek ja net und dann sagt’se, rief sie mich an im Büro, sagt‘se:‘Der Jurek hat angerufen‘. Jurek, ja dein Polnischer Freund, ja ja. Und dann haben wir am Fenster gestanden, um fünf oder was wollte er kommen und hatt sich dann, savott, [unclear] sieht genauso aus. Und der war jahrelang gleich nach’m Kriegsende hier in einer Kaserne auf der Hasenhecke da kamen die ganzen Polnischen und Russischen Kriegsgefangenen wurden da erstmal einquartiert und da war er Chef der Lagerpolizei. Da hat er mich eingeladen zu seiner Hochzeit, da hat er geheiratet und da hat meine Mutter gesagt: ‚Du kannst da net hinfahren, erstmal komste da gar net hin‘, erstmal von Gudensberg aus nach Kassel fuhr gar kein Zug richtig, und dann von hier aus laufen bis zur Hasenhecke das war in Waldau ganz, ich weiss net ob sie das genau so kennense.
HZ: Wir sind heute oben gewesen.
HK: Waldau, das ist so ganz unten an der Fulda da neh. Das ist noch mal mindestens zwei Stunden Fussweg neh, wie willste denn dahin kommen und da bin ich da net hin. Und da hat er mich am Bahnhof abgepasst, ich hab ja da schon gearbeitet, da hat er gesagt:‘So, du bist auf meiner Hochzeit nicht gewesen‘, da hat er mich ein ganzes Jahr lang net angeguckt, da kam er [unclear]. Und der, ich hab noch Post von ihm heute, da hatt er mir, ach, x-mal geschrieben und da kam er hier und dann hatt er mir von der Polnischen Politik berichtet, hier bei mir durfte er das jetzt sagen. Also das waren Zustände, wissense [unclear], soundosoviel Quadratmeter eine Person, durfte glaub ich nur zehn Quadratmeter Wohnfläche haben für eine Person sonst musseste zahlen, also unmögliche Zustände. Na ja gut, das war mit den Polen.
HZ: Und noch, noch irgendwas von der, noch irgendwas aus ihrer Zeit von der, bei der Flak?
HK: Von der Flak, neh. Ja gut also, wie gesagt, hier wo wir am Edersee waren, alle, zweimal in der Woche musste ich nach Kassel fahren, ich hatt’s natürlich gut, da brauchte ich keinen Dienst mehr zu machen. Und so habe ich auch viele Angriffe mitgemacht, die letzten Angriffe neh. Und da war ja meine Mutter und meine [unclear] schwangere Schwester die waren dann schon in Gudensberg, aber die Wohnung war immernoch da, die ist erst ganz, ja, letzter Angriff oder vorletzter Angriff auf Kassel. Und da war die Nachbarin die hat ja gesagt: ‚Helmut, kannst ruhig hier schlafen, wenn Fliegeralarm kommt da mach ich dich schon wach‘. Weil ich das [unclear] gehört habe, als junger Bursche [laughs] und so war das neh. Ja also da gibt’s eigentlich und dann die Angriffe hier. Dann eines Tages hatten wir einen Blindgänger im Haus, das war in der Silvesternacht, vom ‚44 auf ‚45, da war ich am Edersee und Neujahr musste ich Kurierdienst machen und da war ein Zettel an der Haustür: ‚Vorsicht, Blindgänger‘. Alle Leute [unclear] raus, die mussten alle weg. Da ist durch die Decken, durch die Bäder, wir hatten sogar schon Bäder damals, ist die Bombe durch die ganzen Bäder durch und über der Luftschutzkellerdecke ist die Bombe hängen geblieben, wenn die explodierte waren sie alle tot. Und meine Mutter, wir wohnten im dritten Stock, die ist als erstes raufgegangen, die wäre fast da reingefallen in das Loch, die hat das erst gar nicht gesehen weil ja kein Licht da, kein Strom und nix. Und dann hat sie geschrien und dann die Leute alle: ‚Ach Gott!‘ durch die Badewanne durch, war plötzlich ein Loch [laughs]. Na ja, und das haben’se dann wieder irgendwie geflickt, bis es dann ganz kaputt ging. Ja und als Luftwaffenhelfer das was insofern ‚ne interessante Zeit weil das für uns eben, ja, wie soll ich das sagen, wir waren aufgeweckte Gymnasiasten und wir hatten plötzlich eine Zeit vor uns die, die wir net richtig begreifen konnten, habe ich ja eben schon gesagt was is wenn der Krieg jetzt zu Ende ist, was passiert denn mit uns? Diese Gespräche hatten wir schon.
HZ: Das könnten sie auch für das Band nochamal dazu sagen, weil das haben sie mir ja schon vorher mal erzählt. Die Gespräche dann das die vielleicht, das da vielleicht die Flakhelfer so einen Sieg des Dritten Reiches gar net so entgegengesehn haben.
HK: Ja, das war zum Beispeil nach dem Angriff, nach dem Attentat auf‘m Hitler, das war der 20 Juni, Juli, glaub’ich, Juni.
HZ: Juni.
HK: 20 Juni 1944.
HZ: ‚44.
HK: Und dann, wie gesagt, dann in der Kabine, von der Funk, ach wie heisst der, wo die Nachrichten kamen, da wurde dann immer so die Lage da mitgeteilt, Hitler ist davongekommen undsoweiter, aes wurde da immer mitgeteilt. Und da kam der Hauptmann, Leutnant [unclear] und konnte dann [unclear] hören. So und da haben wir abends im Bett gelegen und haben dann gesagt: ‚Hier, das was wohl jetzt wird hier‘ undsoweiter und der Hitler ist davongekommen und da hat der einer gesagt.‘So’ne Scheisse!‘ [laughs], das werde ich also nie vergessen. Und da haben wir schon drüber unterhalten. Was wäre gewesen wenn und da haben wir aber auch debatiert drüber was des auch der Stauffenberg neh, was der auch für Fehler gemacht hat. Wenn er schon sowas macht, das Attentat auf’n Hitler, dann hätte er das auch richtig machen müssen. Er hätte warten müssen bis der tot ist, net vorher schon weglaufen. Er ist ja weggelaufen wo es da explodiert ist, er hätte sich erkundigen müssen, ist er nun wirklich tot oder so, und dadurch ist [unclear] das alles entstanden, wäre er danach stehngeblieben und hätte anschliessend erschossen, dann wäre er zwar auch erschossen worden aber so ist er auch umgekommen. Also das haben wir damals diskutiert, also der Stauffenberg hat da Fehler gemacht. Also so sachliche Gespräche haben wir als junge Leute gemacht, das ist mir noch gut [unclear] aber sonst mussten wir immer das machen was befohlen wurde, eigene Initiative konnten wir net haben.
HZ: Die, ehm, da werden verschiedene Zahlen angegeben, wie viel Flakhelfer einen Luftwaffensoldaten ersätzt hätten, ‚43, da heisst es, die einen sagen das wären, ein Flakhelfer für einen Soldaten gewesen, andere sagen das seien drei Flakhelfer für zwei Soldaten gewesen. Wissen sie da irgendwas?
HK: Hab ich ihnen ja eben gesagt, also diese Posten die wir hatten an der Kannone, die wären sonst von Soldaten gemacht worden
HZ: Also eins zu eins.
HK: Also jede Kannone wurden drei Soldaten gespart. Und wenn’s so’ne Grosskampfbatterie, die hatten acht Kannonen, acht ortsfeste Kannonen, also drei mal achzehn, vierundzwanzig Soldaten wurden schon alleine Kannonen gespart. Und dann kam dazu noch Kommandogerät, da hatten wir auch pfiffige Schüler von uns, die waren am Kommandogerät, da waren auch mindestens dreie, ich weiss es heute nicht mehr so genau, jeden [unclear] und Funkmessgerät. Und dann hier die Umwertung, wo wir nur Luftwaffenhelfer waren, da waren ja früher Soldaten. Also ich hatte alleine, ich war mal eine Zeitlang [unclear] Unteroffizier der, des Befehlsgewalt hatte über die Umwertung, der musste zum Lehrgang, da muss ja einer Stellvertreter sein und da hatt der Hauptmann bestimmt das war ich. Und in der Zeit ist das passiert mit dem Sperrfeuer und da musste ich natürlich bestraft werden, da kam ich zur zbV Batterie [laughs] das ist so kleine Erinnerung, da wurde ich bestraft. Na ja aber schon, das sind dann schon also vierundzwanzig, ich möchte mal sagen schon fast dreissig Soldaten wurden da schon gespart an einer Flakstellung, und wir waren ja ungefähr dreissig Luftwaffenhelfer.
HZ: Sind da auch welche von denen die sie gekannt haben, sind da auch welche gefallen?
HK: Neh.
HZ: Neh.
HK: Also wir haben zwar einen Bombenangriff mitgemacht und zwar in Kaufungen, da wo des grosse Lager von Panzern und LKWs war von der Deutschen Industrie, da ist genau zwischen der Flak, zwischen der Geschützstellung und zwischen der Befehlsstelle, da waren ungefähr, hundert, hundertfuffzig meter dazwischen und genau da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich runter [unclear], genau dazwischen, und da hatt einer noch hier, am Fuss hier, irgendwie‘n Stein oder was da, kam ins Lazzaret hatte eine Verse kaputt. Das war das einzige was ich erlebt habe. Aber hier vorne, in der [unclear] hier, wenn sie hier ein Stückchen runtergehen, zum Auestadion, da ist, geht’s links die Ludwig-Mond-Strasse hoch und das war früher alles freies Feld und da stand eine Flakstellung, die haben viele Tote gehabt da. Da ist mal ein ganzer Bombenteppich über die Flakstellung weg, aber wie viel das wurde damals nicht bekannt gegeben. Da waren also mehrere Schüler die sind dann umgekommen aber zahlmässig waren es verhältnissmässig wenig, dass muss ich schon sagen. Die haben schon ein Bisschen auf uns jungen, junge Burschen so’n bisschen Mitleid gehabt oder so. Auch die Offiziere, das waren alles Familienväter und so. Unser Batterieschef der war von Beruf Mattestudienrat und der sah nun die armen Jungen da und hatte vielleicht selber auch Kinder zuhause und so. Also die haben uns schon so’n bisschen [unclear], das haben wir damals nicht so gemerkt, das haben wir nur dann später so erzählt wenn wir mal zusammen waren, na ja.
HZ: Gut.
HK: Weiss nicht ob ich ihnen viel dienen konnte mit dem, also, eh.
HZ: Des ist, des is ok, da bedanke ich mich. Weil das geht ja um ihre Erinnerungen, das geht ja net da drum.
HK: Ja, sicher, ich meine, Politik wurde damals ja ausgeschlossen, Politik gab’s die ganze Woche Politik, das kannten wir ja net gar net, also wenn da einer was von Politik erzählte wusste da einer gar nix mehr da anzufangen. Was Hitler sagte das war Evangelium. Und ich kann mich erinnern, das war wo wir am Edersee waren, sind, Weihnachten, ja hatten wir keinen Ausgang, mussten wir da bleiben Weihnachten, Weihnachten ‚44, ah da gab’s da ein Festessen, da gab’s net nur Sauerkraut und Pellkartoffeln, das gab’s fünf mal in der Woche, da gab’s dann zu Weihnachten ein Stückchen Fleisch ob das nun vom Hund war oder vom das wusste kein Mensch. Und da sassen wir in der Kantine und da sagte dann der Hautpmann: ‚Na, nun wollen wir mal ein Weihnachtslied singen‘. Da waren wir alle so traurig, wir Jungen, kriegte keiner einen Ton raus und einer nach‘m anderen ging dann raus und ich musste dann auch raus weil Tränen kamen und dann standen im Saal und heulten aber wie, ein Geschluchze und so. Also man merkte dann doch diese innere Ergriffenheit unter uns Schülern, wir waren net alle so, und dann mussten wir dann die Reden von Goebbels glaub ich oder wer das war, mussten wir dann anhören. Also es war schon manchmal schwierig, das kann ich ihnen sagen. Genau wie ich mal als Pimpf, wie war denn das, ich war hier auch, Hitlerjunge net zuerst waren es Pimpfe neh, also Jungvolk hiess das, mit zehn Jahren und so, da kriegtense die Uniform da waren wir ganz stolz drauf. Und dann war, wie war denn das eigentlich, jetzt weiss ich nicht zu welchem Anlass, denn da musste ich in der Stadthalle auf der Bühne an der Fahne stehen und vor uns dann, war das nach dem ersten Angriff auf Kassel glaub ich, das war ‚42, was, so war das, da kam der Joseph Goebbels und hat’ne Rede gehalten, da [unclear] so fünf, sechs Meter hinter’m Joseph gestanden, mit der Fahne neh, da konnte sie ja nix ändern dran, sie wurden einfach bestimmt, konnte sie sich net wehren oder so, das weiss ich immer noch so und da hat unsere Herzen werden starker und was er da alles gebrüllt hat, das ist zu erinnern. Genau wie einmal, das war glaub ich zum Reichskriegertag, ‚39, da war ich grade so‘m Pimpf, da war der Hitler hier in Kassel, zum Reichskriegertag, das mus ‚39, nah sie konn’s ja besser recherchieren, ich weiss nicht mehr wann das war, und da waren wir an der schönen Aussicht und da sollten wir absperren und, aber die Leute haben uns kleinen Jungen ja weggedrängt. Da bin ich hinten auf die Mauer die ja heute noch da ist und hab von oben geguckt und ich sag immer heute noch zu den Jungen, da hat mich der Hitler begrüsst, da guckte er nämlich grade dahin, machte immer so net, und grade da in dem Moment wo er zu mir guckt, da winkte er, da sag ich er hat mir zugeguckt [laughs] [unclear] das wissen meine Enkel sogar [laughs] [unclear]. Ja, Hitler, das ist so, für meinen Begriff, war das schon ein grosser Stratege und ein unheimlich schlauer Mensch, ganz egal was er nun gemacht hat, das Ergebniss war ja schlecht, aber wie er das gemacht hat, es gibt in der ganzen Geschichte, sie kennen die Geschichte besser, so Napoleon oder, ganzen Kriegen so, wie der Cäsar und so, das waren Strategen neh, oder hier, Dschingis Khan und so, wenn man sich vorstellt, in der Zeit, die kommen von der Mongolei mit Pferden und was weiss ich alle hierher, und beherschen ganze Riesenreiche hier. Also das ist schon eine gewaltige Sache und in diese Kategorie gehört meiner Meinung auch der Hitler wenn auch jetzt negativ seine Taten waren, aber er war Stratege, er hat bestimmt was jetzt gemacht wurde und die ganzen Generäle, die Feldmarschälle mussten das machen was er wollte. Das ist gar nicht so einfach sich das vorzustellen. Ich will den net in Schutz nehmen, net dasse denken ich wär ein alter Nazi oder so neh [laughs]. Aber er war wirklich und mein Vater der war jawohl, gut ich wusste nur, er hat jetzt eine Doktorarbeit gemacht über den Alten Fritze da und den Schlesigen Kriege da, und was er verehrt hat, das weiss ich von meiner Mutter her, Napoleon. Das war für ihn ein Riesenstratege wohl. Da hing sogar im Flur ein Riesengemälde von Napoleon, da kann ich mich als Kind da noch erinnern. Also es gab in der Welt mal so bestimmte Typen die übernormal strategisch begabt waren, das wissen sie besser, [unclear] sowas hier dazu erzählen [laughs] aber das ist meine Empfindung hier, meine Empfindung.
HZ: Gut, dann bedanke ich mich jetzt auch [unclear] mal.
HK: Ja, ich hoffe das.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Helmut Köhler
Description
An account of the resource
Helmut Köhler (b. 1928) recalls his wartime experience as Luftwaffenhelfer. He provides a first-hand account of two attacks on Kassel, the first on the 22 October 1943 and the second in March 1944. He describes his time spent inside the air-raid shelter; how he helped extinguish fires; the destruction of schools and the entire old town being razed to the ground. He also discusses everyday life in an anti-aircraft unit, the process of matching skills to roles, training, and anti-aircraft fire. He mentions being posted to a special deployment unit as a punishment for noncompliance, following which he was re-trained on quadruplet anti-aircraft guns at the Eder dam. He briefly talks about the breaching of the Eder dam and the ensuing flood wave. Helmut Köhler recalls Russian and French prisoners of war manning flak batteries. He describes an unexploded bomb in his house on new year’s eve 1944. He stresses that Luftwaffenhelfer freed up soldiers for combat roles and highlights how the replacement ratio was almost 1:1. He mentions his first encounter with American troops in Gudensberg at the end of the war.
Creator
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Harry Ziegler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:59:29 audio recording
Language
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deu
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKohlerH170303
Spatial Coverage
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Germany--Kassel
Germany--Eder Dam
Germany--Gudensberg
Germany
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Civilian
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Temporal Coverage
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1943-10-22
1944-03
1944-12
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
firefighting
Luftwaffenhelfer
prisoner of war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/PLeedhamA1601.1.jpg
a1fcd561dc38bb5f13c7c11bb63b26d3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/ALeedhamA160514.2.mp3
fcfd2bdafa3b86d6a03bfa38ab6d6a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Leedham, Alma
Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham
A L M Leedham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Leedham, A
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham (1922 - 2020, 455833 Royal Air Force), memoirs of herself and her husband Warrant Officer Terence Leedham an armourer who also served on a number of bomber command stations. She served as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force stationed at RAF Scampton and East Kirkby.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alma Leedham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-14
2017-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HH: Ok, it’s Saturday the fourteenth of May 2016 and I am Heather Hughes and I am conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre with Alma Leedham and also present at the interview are Alma’s son, Richard and daughter in law, Jane. Thank you, Alma, very much for agreeing to talk to us today. We are in Richard and Jane’s home in Holbury, Southampton. Alma, I wonder if we could start off this interview with you talking a little bit about your very early life and where you were born and grew up and went to school.
AL: I [unclear], well, I was born in Fulham, which is just outside London, actually South Wessex, and of course I stayed there, I was more or less still there when the war started and when I joined up all I wanted to do was drive. I loved driving and I still do. But I was sent up to Blackpool and we had civilian teachers which turned out to be a bit of a mistake because three or four of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid one night [laughs], well, we didn’t know anything about it, us girls that were lonely we were being put up in local houses up there and that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet on at the theatre up there and a couple of lads took me to see it, so that was the first time, but I’m digressing now, but
HH: Not at all.
AL: You know, being there and thinking about it now, it’s way back in my past really see, so if I jump about you’ll have to excuse me.
HH: Not a problem.
AL: So, the thing is, I did have a boyfriend who was in the RAF and when he disappeared I joined up so I’m trying to remember how old I was then, I was think of I was probably eighteen, possibly nineteen but I think it was more like eighteen, and they send me up to Blackpool and that’s where the drivers were, learning to drive. I had a father who was mad about motor and always had been, he’s always been in the business so he told me how to double declutch, which some people these days have never heard of, but in those days we did, anyway, now where have I got to? This is it, my memory’s sort of, it collapses from time to time and I go from one bit to another. The thing is when the war was starting I was already working for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane. So, I was already slightly involved with the war but when, I’m just thinking, when I decided to join up, they sent me up to Blackpool to learn to drive properly and that was absolutely beautiful because it was the springtime and we were doing most of our training in the upper areas of North Wales and it was really wonderful up there, Rhododendrons all the way, you know, because it was sort of, really, this time of the year, May, and then of course we had a bit of collapse because the trainers, the drivers that we had, who were civilians, several of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid, so the whole thing started to collapse and then, there’s a famous comedian who was a sergeant and he used to take us in the basement.
US: Max Wall.
AL: Max Wall, that was him and he was our sergeant at the time and he wasn’t always funny, I’ll tell you that, but you see, the thing is there were breaks and us girls when we had a break, we used to pop into Woolworth and buy music and sit at the back we’d all [unclear], you know, going like this [unclear], not listening to him at all, but, anyway, that’s beside the point and so eventually of course we all got posted off to different places because there was a break when they decided that because of the disruptive learner, teacher drivers that we had, we would have to start again so we all gone, there were more than fifty of us and we went south somewhere and I can’t quite remember but it was sort of somewhere, sort of [unclear] with northern Wales that we went and they put us through psychology test, so we were sort of listening for noises and we had pieces of paper in front of us with a pencil on one hand and a pen in the other one and so, you had to do all the movements that you were doing if you were driving, so for instance if you were, if the instructor at the front sitting on the [unclear] left hand turn, because he was facing you, it was a right-hand turn for you, so [laughs], so we had pieces, it must have taken about three or four days when we were going through this business of the paperwork and to test what you, how good your sight was and how good your hearing was cause you had to listen for a horn and well, things like that and if he suddenly put his hand out, you put a right hand turn because he was doing a left hand turn, but it was alright for us. It was quite interesting but we were only there four days and then we got sent off again and so I went to, where did I go to? I went to Blackpool. We were, yeah, that was, I think I got a bit mixed up somewhere there but anyway when we finished our training I was sent with three, four other ladies, we were all new to the RAF and we went up to somewhere on the east coast of Scotland where we were collecting new lorries, there were new lorries who were just going into use so when we got up there, the first thing we had to do was to clean the lorries cause you couldn’t see through the windows or anything so we had to clean them up and when all these lorries were ready, they were about, I think they were about six, seven or maybe even eight and we had the business of keeping the right distance outside town from each other and the right distance, when you, you could close up when you, and I can’t remember what the distances were, so you could close up when you were in town but all this time we were normally driving just lorries, small lorries, what you call a thirty-hundred-weight, and then of course the news eventually came through that the postings were coming, when everything went wrong, they were going to send us down to London but before we could go, they stopped us and said, we are sending you to somewhere else and I can’t remember where that is now, but when we finished our training there and they decided we were ok, that’s when I got sent to Scampton but there were only two of us went to Scampton and I can’t even remember the other girls name and of course it was when I got there 83 Squadron were in the process of moving south cause they’d been at Scampton and they were with 39 Squadron. 39 Squadron were flying Manchesters which only had the two engines, they weren’t as good as the Lancasters, so they went out of action fairly soon and I never really had anything to do with those but when we were posted to Scampton there were the empty, that’s the motor place where the, all the girls and the men who were drivers went down there and you would only do half a day because you’d be, you’d have two, at least two other drivers, learners, same as yourself, and we’d have one teacher each, they were civilians and we had one teacher each and you, he decided when you got out and come, somebody got out the backseat and came in and did the driving, so he decided all that sort of stuff and because at that time we were living in what you would call holiday houses, you know, the people went to stay on a holiday at Blackpool and there’s all these land ladies with all their open doors and of course the RAF and the army, they just overtook all the places over and I remember the first time we went, we were right up in the loft area so when I woke up in the morning, I’m trying to stand, trying to sit up, and I hit my head on the [unclear] ceiling but I mean there were seven of us in that attic and so we did get a big post. And then there was the night when we got, I can’t remember her name, one of the other girls, at night we had to be in by ten, but there was a fish and chip shop down the road and we could get lemonade there as well, so we used to get the stuff and take it back but the lady who was in charge of the house, it was her house, she had very, very strict rules about being back by ten and we were only about one minute past ten and she wouldn’t let us in, so the girls who were in the top floor so [unclear] stream down we passed fish and chips and bottles of lemonade up to them but we couldn’t get in ourselves and there was a corporal who was supposed to be in charge of us and she was very weak, she, when they, the owner of the house sort of told her, you can do this and you can do that and can do the other but not this, you know, and so she laid the law down and of course we got to this point where we couldn’t get in one night cause we arrived back one minute after eleven so we had to go three streets away to one of the houses where we had a WAAF office there with officers and sergeants and all that sort of thing, tell them what had happened to us and so they said, well, we will get that sorted out so, they sent for a lorry, it was an RAF lorry to come and pick us up and take us back [unclear] that they let us in [laughs] and that’s what they did, they did [unclear] but as I say, that was just the early days and then once we got posted, we all went different ways so, some of the girls that I knew then I never ever met again. So, you just sort of accepted what came, there was nothing else you could do anyway but I think when you are young, that doesn’t matter, does it? And you know, we more or less behaved ourselves and as I say, that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet in Blackpool on at the theatre and two of the lads decided to take me and I don’t remember much about it, it was Swan Lake, that’s all I know but from then on you know, you saw, you just waited to see what was gonna happen and when I got sent to Scampton the first thing I had to do was not driving a car anymore, you’re driving a tractor, so that’s when I started taking the bombs out to the Lancasters, so.
HH: And you used a tractor for that?
AL: Yeah. So, I’d have, the maximum number of trailers on the back was six, you weren’t allowed to have more, with six could do you two bombloads, see so when you went up to the bomb dump my mate she worked in, Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where we were going, we weren’t told, we were just told which aircraft to take the loads to and you could pick up two loads on six trolleys, so you had a four thousand pound bomb on the trailer behind you and the other two trailers would have incendiary bombs on them, crossways on the trolleys. And so you took out six and you delivered them to the two aircraft that they told you to do and then you went back again, collected another lot and that sort of thing. But I suppose really if you jumped far ahead there was a night when we, you know, we had a fog, and we blew up one of our Lancasters, it was fully bombed from the night before [laughs].
HH: What happened?
AL: Well nobody was hurt or anything, in fact it was rather funny because when this aircraft, you see the aircraft had been lined up on the sort of semicircle ready to take off the night before and of course the rule was that if the Germans got [unclear] that we were coming, it would be cancelled. At this particular night it was cancelled and when we went out the next morning, fog everywhere, you couldn’t see a hand in front of your face. And so there were people doing [unclear] and what we didn’t know at the time, we found out about later was that one of the lads and armourer, he got into the aircraft because when the aircraft was taking off and it was fully loaded, it also had a flash, now the flash came from a chute near the back end of the aircraft and when, I don’t know about the timing and all that sort of thing but that flash, when it went, gave them the light to take a photograph of what they had hit, so it was all very complicated really, but anyway that’s who I was. Oh dear, I’m running out of breath I think. It’s, you know I’m trying to go back to those days cause it’s a long time ago.
HH: It is a long time ago.
AL: And now I’m trying to remember.
HH: So, how, were you just at Scampton or did you serve at any other base? You were just at Scampton?
AL: I was just at Scampton because
HH: So you got to know it very well.
AL: I did. That was, we used to have a dance, it was generally on a Sunday night, this was the non-officers, they had their own particular areas, the same as they had their own officer’s mess, we wouldn’t expect to go up to any of those places, and so we sort of all bumped in together and it seemed to work out quite well. It was.
HH: What were your living quarters like in Scampton?
AL: Oh wait a minute, what was that like? I’m just trying to think where I slept in, oh, yes, it was nearly two miles down the road off Scampton, coming out of Lincoln it would be on the right, I’ve forgotten the name of the village but a lot of us slept down there in sort of Nissen huts and that was a bit awkward because if you wanted to go to the loo you’ll had to, put your shoes on of course, you had to get out of the Nissen hut that you were in, you had to walk across a ditch which had a white plank on it, so you walked across the ditch [unclear] on and though that was sort of loosely put up, you know, for the first to use and that sort of thing, so no problems there expect the girl in the bed next to me had [unclear], I mean, she was a fat girl and she came from Bradford, and I remember she used to call it Bratford, I said it’s not Bratford it’s Bradford, there’s a d in there, anyway she had a [unclear] and they cartered her off but I never knew what happened there but you see, she was a tubby girl and most of us and so most of us didn’t even realise she was expecting, things like that do happen, you know.
HH: And what was the food like?
AL: Mh?
HH: What was the food like?
AL: As far as I remember, it was acceptable. We had a sort of, there was a general, in the main building there was a cooking, really, not cooking, ah, what’s the word?
HH: Canteen.
AL: Yes, they turned it into a canteen up there, so that we could use it and of course in the evening it was used as a theatre, so we had a big screen put up in one corner and my friend Vivian, the one who did the bomb dump, I remember one night, she was sitting there, she was sat on the window sill and there was this cowboy thing on, there was this white horse and somebody was shouting something about the horse and Vivian stood there and she said, come on [unclear]! [unclear] this white horse. And so everybody started laughing so, they said, do you want us to start again? We said, no, carry on from where you are [laughs].
HH: And how much, how much did you have to do with the ground crew and the air crew?
AL: The only relationship, oh, we can’t call it a relationship, but the only people I really knew were, I didn’t know any of the air crew but we all thought that was a good idea because they didn’t always come back but the ground crew, we got to know those that especially the armourers that worked on the stuff because we used to take the bombs out on the trolleys and but you should hear their language if you hadn’t got the trolleys straight when you had to load them out, right under the bomb bay, see, so you took the tractor right the way round and you came in from the side towards the front end cause you couldn’t get out the back way anyway. And so that was my [unclear].
HH: And you said that you’d met your husband as a result of being in Bomber Command.
AL: Oh yes, now, I did know him because he was a flight sergeant and he had sixty men working for him and he was in the armoury department, you see, because I was on the bombs and that sort of thing so I didn’t get to know him and it was so sad one morning, we were, the girls were in the hangar, some waiting to go out on different jobs and he came in and there were tears, I said, what’s the matter? Cause I didn’t even know that he was, that his name was Terry then, I called him the same as everybody else cause he, he was this big lad, he was six foot two, and I sad, what on earth’s the matter? He said, I have just been round to one of the planes that was out last night, he said, the rear gunner was shot up, he said, and I went round the back and there’s just bits of him. He said, I couldn’t bear to look at it and there were tears and he was a flight sergeant but there you are [unclear] sort of thing but over the years, you know, we sort of got to know each other, especially if I was on night duty and he was on night duty too. So, out on the airfield there were three huts, hut number one, two and three, and you could always go to one of these huts because they had these stoves and the stoves there were on the top and I used to go down the cook house and get some bread and we made toast up there, you see, so we were never short of something [unclear] and they used to say when I got, when I used to get down the cook house, you didn’t come for more bread? I said, yes [laughs]. And I don’t remember whether we ever managed to get any marge to go with it, certainly wasn’t any butter. [unclear] got some marge sometimes. But, you know, it’s, I’ve gone off my track again, haven’t I?
HH: You were talking about getting to know your husband.
AL: Oh yes, he, well, mainly I suppose it was because he was working on the, he was, you see, there were four hangars but it was hangar number three and hangar number four were where the armourers worked, he was a flight sergeant at the time and so the only time he ever had to bring his lads in, he would sit in the front with me, in the front, that’s the lorry I was driving and [laughs], one night he came back with the lorry and while I had been out on the airfield, they’d taken one of the Lancasters and they towed it by the tail, put it in the hangar and the doors, the hangar gates or doors, which were, they were normally open when I left, when I came back they were like this and I got, I got probably about twelve armourers in the back of the lorry with all their gear, you know, the winding and bits, so I got them and when I had got round to the hangar and the hangar which had been wide open there was a [unclear] one so I didn’t realise that what they’d done was to tow a Lancaster in there by the tail, so when I drove in [unclear] my lads that were in the back of the lorry got the propeller piece that was in the downward bit, it went over the roof and where I was driving but the covered bit where the lads were [laughs], it went back and it bent all the way [unclear] shouting at me [unclear] [laughs]. But things like that happened.
HH: I’m sure. Well, things were not as well-lit in those days apart from everything else, weren’t they?
AL: Most of the time you couldn’t see where you were going.
HH: Exactly.
US: You were going to tell the story of flash?
AL: Flash? Oh yeah.
US: Who [unclear]
AL: When we the, when we blew him up?
US: Yeah. When you blew the Lancaster up.
AL: Oh, well, this, on this particular night there was going to be a raid on Germany and the aircraft, we got them all loaded up and everything and whether the news, cause sometimes the news of what we were doing would get through to the Germans and if they found out, I mean, we never knew any details or anything but if that happened, the whole thing was off and everything like that, so on this one particular night, everything was ready but there was a very thick fog the next morning and when we got to work, there was, it was a bit difficult, we had to go out onto the aircraft, we had armourers and I mean, I didn’t even know about it at the time but in the aircraff where the bombs are, they are in sort of the middle of the aircraft but behind that towards the tail, inside there’s a chute and the chute had, I suppose you could call it a bomb, it’s like a small one
US: It’s a flash [unclear]
AL: But it was the flash really and it went, it went into a chute so that what happened, when the aircraft were in the air and they got the place that they were gonna bomb land, this flash, I mean I don’t know any of the details, but the flash was what gave them the light to take a photograph of what they’d hit.
HH: That’s it.
AL: So, as I say, I don’t know any of the details there.
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Eh?
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Well, this was the problem, the whole thing was cancelled the night before, when we got to work the next morning, Cookie, who was the warrant officer in charge of the armourers and the, what we called the downstairs people [laughs], in charge of me as well, he had got very drunk the night before, which wasn’t unusual [laughs] and he sent, which he should never have done, he sent some blokes out to defuse the flashes, see, so, there was a case, they, so they had to get into the aircraft and the flash was, long thing about that, and it was about that wide and it went, and that was what took a photograph of what they hit and what he did, Cookie sent one of the blokes out to defuse one of these things or more than one but he ignored the fact that no one below the rank of corporal was allowed to do that and this bloke, he was just a leading aircraftsman, he was no rank at all and he put the switch the wrong way and he fired it so we had, he shouted as soon as he’d done it, now we had at that time because it was the next morning there was fog everywhere and there were the lads who had all the instruments and stuff and they were, had trolleys and when I was driving the lorry, I was seeing somebody running across the ground towards the hangar, two blokes and they hadn’t got the sense to leave the trolley and go [laughs], they were still pushing the trolley along [laughs], running across the grass towards the hangar with this trolley, I thought that was really funny [laughs]. But I’ve lost myself again.
US: The flash went off at the Lancaster, set it on fire.
AL: Oh yes, this was when
HH: Set the aircraft on fire.
AL: The switch, this switch that was supposed to switch the flash off, he turned it the wrong way apparently. But he knew what he’d done as soon as it happened because the flash dropped out of the bottom of the aircraft, it was at the tail end, and you shouted, jump everybody, the flash is gone! You see, we had the instrument people working up in the, where the pilot and the navigator, where those people would be, and the mid upper gunner, he would be up there and there was another one, there was the front gunner, he would be up there and these men were up there, you see, and the aircraft was on fire down the bottom with this thing, see, so, they jumped out where they were and people got away from the aircraft and of course in no time at all, not only was this Lancaster on fire but because overall wing to wing, the Lancs on either side were on fire.
HH: And were they are still fully bombed up?
AL: Oh yeah. And but you see, the thing was, because we couldn’t see properly because the fog was so thick and the airfield at Scampton is like this so that if you are on the far side, you can’t even see the hangars. So, it was more than a little difficult but when people realised what was happening, they sent a message out to the pilots to come and move their aircraft, so we did get most of them moved but the middle five, the three of them didn’t belong to us, they belonged to 120 Squadron [laughs], which is a bit of a laugh to start with if it did belong to us and you know, so it was sort of case of blowing up and all this sort of thing and of course in those days Perspex in the [unclear] windows was absolutely marvellous stuff and the lads used to make all sorts of things [unclear], cigarette lighters and stuff like that, and cigarette cases, they used to use this stuff like as I saw any, you know, there was a smash, they pick up the bits and take them home and use them. So, I mean, not everything went to waste, but they were exciting days.
HH: So there a lot of aircraft, lot of aircraft got lost in that incident.
AL: Oh yes,
US: Three, wasn’t it?
AL: Mh?
US: You lost three.
AL: Yeah, we did, we lost three, because, you see, the thing is when the first thing went down the chute and the bloke said, bombs away, clear it everybody, everybody was jumping and running but we were in thick fog and so because the aircraft from wingtip to wingtip, once the centre one which didn’t belong to us, was on fire, the ones on either side were in no time at all were on fire as well and what we had to do, we had to send for the pilots, to come and take the aircraft on the edges away, so we were left with, I wonder if three or five, I think it was five aircraft there, they wouldn’t, they couldn’t get on the, sort of the end of the [unclear] because they were too near the ones that were burning, so I had taken the four thousand pound bombs out the night before and what happened, we had the three centre ones blew up but the ones that were burning on the outside, we’d got the fire hoses putting them out and Vivian, she was out there with me on her tractor and we were waiting for the bombs to cool down so we could take them back to the bomb dump afterwards.
HH: Quite a dangerous job.
AL: We didn’t think so at the time [laughs].
HH: What was it like, Alma, on operation’s nights, when there was an operation?
AL: Well, was no different to any other night, really.
HH: Did you tend to be more tense, to wait for planes to come back?
AL: No. No, the thing is, we had to get used to the way things were, that was it, uhm, I mean, most of the girls like me, we had an unwritten law, you don’t get involved with the pilots or the navigators, people like that, cause they may not come back and a lot of them didn’t. And you see, as I say, there was this one night when Terry or morning when Terry turned up and there was only bits of this bloke because the Germans had got, you know, a really good bomb and, but you see, the aircraft itself was so near landing that it managed to land but of course the back end of it was in bits and so was this bloke. So we never got involved with the aircrew, safest not to, the same as when, you see, you had different jobs, sometimes I’ll be driving the tractor and taking the bombs out, sometimes I’ll be driving a lorry and taking the men out or bring them back. I just did what I was told.
HH: And you said that you also did the post run between Lincoln and Waddington.
AL: Oh that was, yes, I did, there was, I’ve got some idea that Scampton was a sort of, not exactly a headquarters but it was a bit sort of more up than some of the others so a lot of the secret mail that used to come in it would, I don’t know how it came, whether it was a bloke on a motorbike or something but this mail that came in could not go through the normal post and it had to be taken, see, so, there were occasions when it was my job to take the stuff over to Waddington and sort of drive through Lincoln to do it and then all the way back with fish and chips and they were all waiting in the empty room when we got back [laughs], all waiting for their fish and chips [laughs].
HH: What was, what rank did you obtain, Alma, what was your rank?
AL: [unclear], leading aircraftswoman, that was all. I never even got to corporal.
HH: And your, can you remember your service number?
AL: 455833 [laughs].
HH: Everyone can do that, it’s quite extraordinary. Yeah, it’s wonderful. And how much, what did you do when you had leave duty?
AL: Uhm, leave, I’m just trying to think, I don’t really remember doing anything.
US: Did you go and visit your mum?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you go home
US: Did you go [unclear] and visit your mum?
AL: Oh I did go home, there was an uncle, actually he was an uncle and aunt of my mum, they lived in Lincoln and I used to go down and have a meal with them sometimes and because of where he was he got some placards which advertised the local theatre in Lincoln, sometimes he would say to me, would you like a couple of tickets? And I’d take on of the girls with me, we’d go down and see a show down there.
HH: It’s lovely.
AL: So that happened several times and do you know, I can’t even remember his name, nor his wife’s name or what they looked like. It’s a long time ago.
HH: Long time ago.
AL: I can’t. No, I don’t.
US: Your great uncle.
AL: Eh?
Us: That would have been your great uncle.
AL: Yes, yeah. But, they were my mum’s uncle and aunt and because when she heard where I was, she sent me out their address and so I went round to see them so when I was going out in the evening going into Lincoln to get fish and chips, oh, actually, I wasn’t going for the fish and chips, I was going to Waddington to deliver their mail and there was a fish and chips on the way back, but you see, all the girls in the empty, they all used to give me a list of what they wanted, now I used to come back with loads of fish and chips [laughs].
HH: Now, you stayed in Scampton till the end of the war, did you?
US: No.
AL: No, no, I didn’t. Cause I got married and had my first baby, in 1944.
HH: Ok, so you got married in, so you, when, after you were married you left Scampton, is that right?
AL: Uhm,
US: No, no, hang on, [unclear] If you want to get things in chronological order
AL: What?
US: If you want to get things in chronological order, you were sort of telling us that, although you’d worked with dad, he was very shy and you didn’t really sort of make that much contact with him although you’d been out, you know the WAAFs and the lads used to go to Lincoln together
AL: Yeah, we did.
US: But you’d always been a bit shy and you never really approached him and then one night there was that incident with the, [unclear] where the undercarriage collapsed and you had to go out, the night with the torch, that story.
AL: I don’t remember an awful lot about it. He was, he and another bloke, were digging underneath
US: The Lancaster, the undercarriage collapsed from take off
AL: The Lancaster, collapsed, the wheels had collapsed and there was, there were loaded bombs in there and so he and a couple of lads, I remember I was driving a lorry that night because somebody was shouting for a torch and there was an officer sitting with me and I said, there’s a torch there and I drove to and he, do you know, this officer got out of the lorry, round the front of it and disappeared and these blokes were down there so I got out of the lorry, picked up the torch and went over to the lads that were working there trying to dig the, you know, the bottom of the aircraft where the bombs were and they did do it, they defused the four thousand pound, but you see, the others
US: They were on time [unclear] the [unclear] had gone off even though
AL: See so, he did that but you see the incendiaries that were all around, I mean, the, [unclear], eleven, eleven boxes of incendiaries right round the main bomb, and of course they weren’t timed or anything, it was just a big bang on the earth that opened them up and that was it. Long time ago.
HH: Indeed.
US: That was the first you really had any real sort of contact with that, wasn’t it? And after that, you got talking or something.
AL: Yeah. And then I discovered he was jealous. And when we went to, we had a dance in the corporal’s mess and one of the blokes that I knew on a flight came across and asked me for a dance, so I went to dance with him, when I came back there was no sign of Terry. And I thought, that’s funny. And I said to one of the blokes, where did Terry go? Don’t know, he said. So I said, oh, never mind. And he turned up about twenty minutes later and I said to him, where have you been? He said, I couldn’t bear to see you with him, he said, I’ve been for a walk. That was it. He was very jealous. So, that was it. But he was lovely.
HH: Good.
AL: yeah.
HH: And you got married in ’43?
AL: Yeah. Twelfth of September.
HH: And where were you after that?
AL: Do you know, you’ve asked me, I don’t really know. I mean, as soon as I started to expect Leslie I had to leave anyway. But
HH: And where did you live when you left the WAAFs?
AL: I must have gone back to Kingston, to mum’s.
US: You did eventually, but after, you talked about living in Nissen huts of the base, at one stage you moved into married quarters at Scampton, didn’t you?
AL: Oh yes,
US: Was it number 18?
AL: Number 18, yes,
HH: So you stayed in married quarters at Scampton for a while
AL: [unclear]
US: And you were back in the same house that you
AL: Yeah, they gave me same house after the war.
HH: Gosh!
US: Oh yeah, that was after the war, that was the same house where you’ve been billeted with all your mates. Yeah, so Leslie was born
AL: Yeah, Leslie was born in a hospital in Birmingham,
US: Oh, ok.
AL: And it was dreadful. They were awful people.
US: So after you were married then, before Leslie was born you then moved to East Kirkby, didn’t you?
AL: The name is familiar, I can’t put a, I can’t remember what it looked like. East Kirkby, the name is very familiar. Was it round the back of the aerodrome?
US: No. No, it’s South Lincolnshire.
AL: South
HH: It’s near Spilsby.
AL: Yeah, I know.
US: Woodhall Spa.
HH: And Woodhall Spa.
AL: I just can’t remember that bit
US: After Scampton, I can’t remember whether you were married at Scampton or not.
AL: No, we were married at my mum’s place.
US: Alright, ok.
AL: [unclear].
US: Yeah, but I can’t remember whether you were still living at Scampton at the time when you were married or not. But at some stage, 57 Squadron transferred from Scampton to East Kirkby.
AL: Ah yes.
US: And you would, If you would remember you were driving the lead lorry that was coming [unclear]
AL: We had no road signs in those days.
HH: They’d all been taken down.
AL: [unclear] didn’t know where you were going and I was driving the lead lorry, I think there was anything up to fifty vehicles and we’d go down all these country lanes with no road names or anything and every so often I’d stop and there’d be a lot of shouting going on behind and they’d say, let us know when you want to turn because we can’t oversee you when you slip off or something and was something about it and I can’t remember that. But
HH: You got there safely, did you?
AL: Yes, yeah. I don’t even remember, I know I was driving lorries then not, I wasn’t driving in fact the only time I ever drove the CO’s car was to turn it round in the CT garage [laughs]. Yeah, I turned it round that’s all. But I did take two officers down to, they had to go to a meeting somewhere and it was south of Lincoln and I remember there was a river nearby but there was a, where you came round there’s a very steep road and then you turned in and I had to stay there, they gave me the money to go to the pictures, and I don’t know where they went for the afternoon and when I got back to the car, they were both waiting for me so I just took them back to camp. Just one of those odd things that happened.
HH: Yeah.
US: When you got to East Kirkby, you were living off the base there, weren’t you? You remember you were living at that pub called The Vanguard?
HH: The Vanguard pub?
US: Across the far side of the airfield.
AL: Yeah. I don’t remember too much about that.
HH: And then after the war, where were you, where did you?
AL: Went home.
HH: Also to London.
AL: Yeah. Or more or less Kingston-on-Thames.
HH: Kingston-on-Thames. Is that where you were living?
AL: Yeah.
HH: Ok.
AL: Yeah, my mum and dad were there, you see, they moved from Fulham up to Kingston.
US: Well, mum had to leave when sort of, I don’t know whether she declared or whether it became apparent that she was expecting, so she had to leave the WAAFs.
HH: Yeah. And then you had a family after the war. And did you stay in Kingston?
AL: Don’t know [unclear]
US: I don’t know what you did, I think you moved back up to Scampton after the war.
AL: Oh probably we did go back to Scampton.
US: Because wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton?
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton or in Lincoln?
HH: Did your husband stay in the armed forces after the war?
AL: Well, he was a permanent man, he joined, he joined when he was sixteen.
HH: So, he stayed on, ok.
AL: Oh yeah. So, wherever he went, I went, so I’ve been to Iraq and
HH: My goodness. Interesting life.
AL: And Singapore, we’ve lived in Singapore and Iraq. And several different places. [unclear] we just moved from one place to another. And if the people who just moved out didn’t wash the pottery and everything properly, you sat [unclear] and did it yourself.
HH: Amazing, yeah.
US: I think, after going back to Scampton, I think your next move was to Iraq in about 1950.
HH: Gosh!
AL: Yes, sounds about right.
US: To a Place called Habbaniya.
HH: Habbaniya. Ok.
US: Which is just outside, which is actually Bagdad. It’s now Bagdad international airport for two years I think.
HH: And did you have your family with you? You took your children with you to Iraq?
AL: Yeah.
US: The girls. I wasn’t born then.
AL: The girls. I had Leslie and Valerie, and Valerie was a little devil. Used to tell her off for swearing. And she would drop something deliberately and then she would look at me and she would say, shit! [makes a spitting sound] [laughs]
HH: [laughs] So you would, a couple of years in Iraq, so you would seen the world, have you?
AL: Yeah, and Singapore, we lived in Singapore for a couple of years.
HH: And then mostly back in this country.
AL: Yeah, but. I’ve had a good time really.
HH: You’ve had such an interesting life.
AL: Yeah.
HH: Well thank you very much, shall we stop the interview now and we thank you, you worked very hard, I’m sorry that you worked so very hard but thank you for all your wonderful stories.
AL: Well, the thing is, I mean it’s, there were probably others that, you know, if I was nudged I would probably remember them.
HH: Well, if you do we can talk some more. Thank you so much. Thank you.
AL: But, such a long time ago, I remember [file missing]
HH: So you dared to walk on the wing of a Lancaster.
AL: Yeah.
HH: And?
AL: Not while it was flying [laughs]
HH: And did you?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you?
AL: Yeah. I walked out to I suppose within about two foot of the end of the wing.
HH: Quite a long way out.
AL: I was young and daring then. They said to me, you won’t do it, I said, oh yes, I will [laughs].
US2: Did you tell them about the night when the planes flew off to bomb the dams?
AL: The what?
US2: Did you tell Heather about the night when the planes went off on their mission to bomb the dams?
AL: Oh when they did the Dam busters, yeah [laughs]
US2: [unclear] your friend Vivian.
AL: No, when you say my friend Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where aircraft were going. We never did. We would just, we just took the tractor and we would pick up the trailers and Vivian would say, well, you take this to F for Freddy, or G for George or whatever, and you took it to that aircraft and just left, left it there and after they had bombed up the aircraft after the, the lads that did the, oh, the armourers. After the armourers had finished doing their bit, I forgot what I was going to say now,
HH: This is about the Dam busters and your friend Vivian.
AL: Yeah.
HH: The dams raid.
AL: Yeah, because I said to Vivian, when the Dam busters went off that night, there were nineteen of them and only eleven came back and I can remember, I got a photograph of, I don’t know where it is of Vivian stood there, somebody took a photograph, wasn’t me cause I didn’t have the camera, yeah, she, cause I said to her, she was out there the next morning and when we heard that nine hadn’t come back and I remember saying to Vivian, you didn’t tell me it was the real thing! She said, well, I wasn’t supposed to. That was it. I’m sorry really that I’ve didn’t keep up with her cause I’d like to, you know, I’ve liked to keep in touch after the war but we didn’t, we just went our own separate ways, very well. But, very well.
HH: Can you remember what was Vivian’s surname in those days?
AL: Winsome. Yeah. She’s very tall, she’s much taller than me. And she was the one who found out what bit of the tractor engine you had to tie a string on if you wanted to go faster than five miles an hour. And so she [unclear] my mind up, so that I could do it but you, you could only get up to, it was only two or three miles faster than we could normally do. And
HH: I also asked you what your maiden name was and what were you known as in the WAAF.
AL: Turner.
HH: Because some people had then, you know, were known by nicknames, weren’t they?
AL: Yes, they were. I don’t think I was.
US: Well, Dad had a nickname, didn’t he?
AL: Ey?
US: Dad had a nickname, he was Lofty, wasn’t he?
AL: Yeah, dad was Lofty, because he was so tall.
HH: Because of his height, yeah, yeah.
AL: But I don’t think I had that. Oh, you got some of the pictures in there?
US: Remind you of something, these aren’t in order.
AL: Well, that’s me when I was young [laughs].
US: It’s true, just about the right time.
AL: That’s me when I was fifteen. And that’s me with Gladys. She was our lodger, she came from somewhere on the east coast and that’s Terry.
US: That was the wedding. Yeah.
HH: 1943.
AL: Oh yeah, there’s Terry and there’s me. And that’s his brother, who now unfortunately has died. That was Leslie as well and that’s my dad and that was my friend Norma. And that was next door’s little girl. There’s my dad and my mum and that was Auntie Madge and Uncle Tom, Auntie Eva, don’t know her name, that was me. That, I think that was Terry’s dad.
US: Looks like him.
AL: Yeah, I think that one was Terry’s dad, because that one is Terry’s brother, that’s Terry. Auntie somebody but she wasn’t a real auntie and there is Graham, my brother.
US: [unclear] So, what was, say a little bit about that.
AL: [laughs] we had a [unclear] and we were in the concert
HH: This is in Scampton.
US: I think so.
AL: I think it was, yeah. But I don’t remember the other two girl’s names. There’s [unclear] was, I did remember it the other day, but it’s gone again and it wasn’t spring is in the air but it was something like that, no. No, we put on a concert.
US: I remember you still had that jumper years later.
AL: I did [laughs]. Yeah, that’s when Leslie was born.
US: Scampton, was it?
AL: No, was Auntie Eva’s place.
US: Ok.
AL: Auntie Eva’s place that was.
US: And then there is a reference here to RAF Cardington.
HH: Gosh!
US: Were you there?
AL: No, I wasn’t there, Terry got posted there.
US: Maybe you were in London.
AL: No, I don’t think, that was 1945. So it was two years after we got married. He probably, he was probably posted.
US: Looked like you were in Scampton in ’47, with your dog.
AL: That’s N*****, not allowed to call them N***** now, are you? That was our N*****, he was lovely. And that’s Leslie, that’s Leslie with N***** when he was, we really got the dog for Leslie because I was shopping down in Lincoln and I went into the butcher’s and I was, you know, just getting something, was it the butcher’s? No, it wasn’t the butcher’s, it was another shop because Leslie was sat in the front seat and I had her, that’s right, and this fellow came out and he said something about a dog, he said, we found a dog in a field, that was it, it wasn’t very far away from Lincoln, his son was in the army and they bought him this puppy and his son was in the army, went to Germany and was killed and they couldn’t bear to look at the dog. So I said, I’ll take him home and so I did, so I had N***** for, how many years?
US: You must have had him from, well, I don’t know when you first got him but you probably had him to about 1950, ’51, ’52?
AL: He was quite young when I got him.
US: What happened to N***** when you were in Iraq?
AL: Mum looked after him.
US: So he was, he was still there when you got back?
AL: Yes.
US: Was he?
AL: And he went mad when he saw Terry. He suddenly realised it was Terry at the bottom of the garden.
US: And did you have him at Winterbourne Gunner as well?
AL: Yes, yeah, we did.
US: Ok. You must have had him at least ten years then.
AL: We did, he was, I think he was about ten or eleven when he died. It was a shame really, cause he was a gorgeous dog.
US: What else we got here.
AL: We got some more pictures. Do you know, I was looking at that and I was thinking, oh, I ought to know.
US: Ok.
AL: I don’t know him but I should know her.
US: Ok. [unclear] written on the back, what we got here, oh, we got Newark there.
HH: Oh yeah.
AL: Oh yeah. It’s me and Terry with Leslie, our first baby.
HH: Lovely.
AL: That’s me and that’s Terry. And that was our first one. And this is N***** as well with Leslie.
US: Scampton in ’46.
AL: Yes, Scampton 1946. It was an awful cold winter then, it really was. That’s a nice photograph of Terry.
US: Still 1948.
AL: Yeah. We were there quite a long time, weren’t we?
US: Mh.
AL: Oh, that’s when the [unclear] was in London.
US: 1951 then.
AL: We took the kids down.
US: Might go back, these are not in chronological order. Just family photographs.
AL: That’s N*****. He’s gorgeous.
HH: Lovely dog.
US: That must have been when we were at Winterbourne Gunner, old Sarum.
AL: Winterbourne Gunner.
US: Well, it must have been
AL: Ruins, Old Sarum, yes, it is.
US: Oh, tell them about the caravan.
HH: You’ve got a caravan story, have you?
AL: Well, the thing is, we went back to Winterbourne Gunner, when we were stationed there and there were no married quarters available so we bought this caravan [laughs]. And we lived in the caravan on the hill, about half way up from where the, what was the name of the unit where we were staying then?
US: Well, Boscombe Down.
AL: Boscombe Down. And she remembers more than I do.
HH: So what was it like living in a caravan?
AL: Oh, it’s quite ok.
US: See the size of it.
AL: We watched the big, when they were electing the mayor, not mayors, the
HH: General election?
AL: MH?
HH: General election?
AL: Yes. We went to a general election while we were there because we sat up at night with the television on and everything you know. And that’s when we went down to Cheddar Gorge. Weren’t you with us then?
US: No. Wasn’t born then.
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t born then.
AL: Oh, it must have been a later time. That’s Winterbourne, Janet, Janet and Susan they were [unclear] children not mine, who’s with Janet?
US: That’s your niece. Graham’s daughter.
AL: Who?
US: Graham’s daughter.
AL: Oh, is it?
US: yeah.
AL: Well, I’ve forgotten. That’s Cheddar Gorge. 1952, that’s the girls, Leslie and Valerie and that’s them again with the dogs.
HH: I want to take a picture [unclear].
AL: I think that’s it, is it?
US: That’s it for that album.
HH: I’m just going to take a nice picture. I’m going to say thank you again and turn this. So tell me about flying in a Lancaster.
AL: [unclear] after the war, wasn’t it?
US: No, it wasn’t. I don’t think so.
US2: Your mum’s [unclear] taxi right now. Rich is thinking about the time
US: The time when, do you remember the one about the pilot who had to do his retaining because he had a problem with landings?
AL: Oh, yes [laughs]
US: There you are, in your own words.
AL: That’s right, uhm, now, we were on night duty and what had happened? This particular pilot was having problems landing at the right place at the right time. And when the aircraft came back from the raid that night, the officer that was in charge of that group, he said, you need some more basic training, he says, so it’s ok of [unclear]
HH: Circuits and bumps.
AL: Circuits and bumps, I was trying to think of, was a case of circuits and bumps for him and of course I was on night duty then and, O for Orange he drove, he was in O for Orange because the funny thing was when he came down, my friend Vivian, she was running the flight path from her tractor, some sort of car tow, thing that was out on the aerodrome, and she was working on that, I was down, I was down the front, oh dear, a very difficult time for me, he came, that’s right, the night before there’d been a bomb raid on and when he came back, he made a bad landing and I remember that the rear gunner, he was so worried about it that as the plane hit the ground, he spun it round and jumped out. He did
US: Spun the turret round
AL: And, yeah, he spun it round, he jumped out [laughs]. Mind you that the aircraft was practically at the standstill by then so he didn’t come to any harm but he said I’m not going with that [unclear] any more [laughs].
US: So you were gonna say what the CO did to him? He made him do circuits and bumps and how did you end up being in the aeroplane?
AL: [unclear], yeah, I was just on duty that night, I can’t remember, I think I was driving a lorry. Trying to think what his name was but I can’t remember it. No, it’s gone, I can’t remember it.
US2: I think you and your girls were off at a ride, weren’t you?
AL: Mh?
US2: You and some of the other girls were off at a ride.
US: Yeah, how did you come to be off at the
AL: What?
US: How did you come to off at the chance to go up in the Lancaster when you were [unclear]?
AL: Well, that actually was a deliberate thing, the CO was very good, several of the girls asked could they go up on one of the Lancasters and on this particular occasion he said, yes, six of you can go. And six of us went, and we didn’t realise until after we took off that it was the bloke who was not doing his landings very well the night before [laughs], the first time he came down, we bounced nine times [laughs], and we were all in there and one of the girls was sick, I know, I was sat in the wireless operator’s seat and when we hit the ground the first time I left the seat [unclear], my head was practically on the ceiling [laughs], but you know we all had a good laugh out of it [laughs]. That is the sort of things that happened.
US: And do you remember anything else about the flight in the Lancaster?
AL: Which one?
US: How many times did you go round and land?
HH: Did you have to do lots of circuits and bumps with him?
AL: Yeah, I think we went round four or five times. But, you know, we were more or less prepared [coughs]. I know I stayed by the bomb aimer’s table [laughs] but I think two of the girls were sick [laughs] when we hit the ground but
HH: Dear, dear.
AL: It’s a long time ago.
HH: I’m gonna take another pickie. That’s a nice picture of you in your uniform.
AL: Oh yeah.
HH: I’ll send you these in an email. No.
AL: I mean, I’m gonna be ninety four next month.
HH: Which is wonderful, yeah.
US2: I’m not sure if I heard you say at the beginning about when you were having your driver training.
AL: Mh?
US2: I’m not sure whether I heard you say at the beginning when you were having your driver training, that you used to have, you were telling me the other day about the lectures that you were going to and you and your friends used to get [unclear] music [unclear]
AL: That was when Max
US2: Wall
AL: Max Wall, he was our sergeant in those days, and because we, half way through, I mean, he was really keeping us occupied cause he didn’t know what else to do with us, because some of our group were, who said they were willing to do desk work, they got send down to London so the group got a bit smaller, I’m trying to think what happened to the rest of us. I know the group did get smaller, we had to go, we had to go on this test to see where, it was a weird test, we had, there was a woman there and she had a, she had [unclear] in each hand and we had sheets of paper in front of us with a pen in one hand and a pencil in the other and every time she went sort of like that, we’d do a sort of a round and we had to listen for a horn so if the horn went, there was a little circle in the middle and you had to squiggle in there so and then well afterwards they would check all these pieces of paper to see how close to the truth you were, we were.
HH: So that sounds like today the equivalent of today’s theory test.
AL: Would it?
HH: I don’t know.
AL: I don’t know.
US2: [unclear] wasn’t it, called [unclear]?
AL: [unclear] was lovely, uhm, because that’s sort of round the curve and they were just round the, we were round the top a bit round the curve and at tea time [coughs] we saw the, [unclear] the fish, they’re not fish, the well-known, well, I suppose they are fish really.
HH: Dolphins.
AL: Yes, and it was beautiful sort of spring evening with low sunshine and they used to come around [coughs].
HH: Lovely.
AL: Some of the girls took photographs, I didn’t have a camera. And, a long time ago now.
HH: It is. Thank you Alma. [file missing] Ok, tell us the story of how you got bullets in your tractor.
AL: Well, what had actually happened was I had the tractor out in the daytime, doing the usual jobs, you know, [unclear] bombs about and that sort of stuff and that, was it that evening? I put the tractor away, when I got back down the next morning, I discovered that the armoury, what’s it, I’m trying to think of his rank, I can’t think of it anyway, eh?
US2: The rifle sergeant or something?
AL: No. No, he wasn’t as high up as that, [laughs], no, what happened, he, I don’t know why he had my tractor but he did, now, earlier on we had a raid over Germany, and I mean, at this time of night, I was either in the pub or gone to bed. So, it was quite late. And apparently what happened was that our blokes went over to Germany, did their bombing and everything but while they were there a German fighter plane tapped on the back end of them when they were coming home and it was when they got back to the airfield, the corporal who had borrowed my tractor for whatever reason I don’t know, cause I wasn’t even on duty then, but he borrowed my tractor and started off to get it back to the, you know, sort of empty headquarters but he didn’t have enough sense to turn the lights off, you see, so the German aircraft came down and started firing at him and he just got off the tractor [laughs], he just ran away but the tractor was there with the lights on, see so, the fellow who was bombing the tractor, there was only a tractor, see so he didn’t bomb and he finally disappeared. That was it. It was hardly worth mentioning really [laughs].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alma Leedham
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-14
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeedhamA160514
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Alma Leedham grew up in London and worked for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane at the start of the war . She later trained as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served at RAF Scampton driving tractors taking bombs to the aircraft. Mentions various episodes of her service life: a flash accidentally blowing up a fully bombed Lancaster and setting fire to other nearby aircraft; delivering post from Scampton to Waddington; meeting her husband, a flight sergeant; her tractor being targeted by a German fighter plane. Describes the relationships between the WAAFs and the ground and aircrews at the base. Remembers the night the Dam Busters went on their operation. Tells of her family life after the war.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Format
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01:24:34 audio recording
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bomb trolley
bombing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
hangar
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
tractor
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1065/11521/AParkerPTW160106.2.mp3
9c07b5575ef7a9115eb64d3d990957cc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parker, Peter
Peter T W Parker
P T W Parker
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Parker (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Parker, PTW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Alright. So it’s Wednesday the 6th of January 2016 and I am sitting with Mr —
PP: You know I’m a bit —
HH: With Mr Peter Parker —
PP: Yes.
HH: In his home in [deleted] Gainsborough.
PP: Yes.
HH: And we’re going to talk about his life and his time in Bomber Command during World War Two. Peter, thank you very much for agreeing —
PP: Yes.
HH: To be interviewed.
PP: Yes.
HH: I wonder if we could start by asking you a little bit about where and when you were born and where you grew up and went to school.
PP: I was, oh yes I could do that now. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was born in Gillingham, Kent. And my father was an Admiralty Inspector. He, and [pause] I’m stuttering now. My father was an Admiralty Inspector in Chatham Shipyard and during World War One. And in World War Two he worked, he was allocated to Marshalls in Gainsborough as an Admiralty Inspector on big guns. My, my, when I was ten my parents separated. And my father, we went up to live in Newcastle. And when I was ten my parents separated and I came down to Gainsborough.
HH: And have you been here ever since?
PP: I’ve been here ever since. Yes. Yes. Yes, I’ve been ever since. Yes. Yes. I came down at the time of the eleven plus and I wasn’t allowed to. I didn’t take the eleven plus at all. The headmaster gave, gave me special education in his office. There was two of us. Two lads. And of course as soon as war broke out, oh and then of course I got a job as a, in a local builder’s merchants and I bought my first car. And then when I first came out the RAF I bought a Triumph Speed Twin motorbike. Six fifty motorbike. And — no, I bought a — can you deduct all the bits you don’t want? No?
HH: You carry on because these are all interesting.
PP: Yeah. It has taken me by surprise. This has really.
HH: And where did you go to school in Gainsborough then?
PP: I went to school in Gainsborough too. I was the first pupils in Benjamin Adlard School on Sandsfield Lane.
HH: Gosh.
PP: Yes. With Hillier the headmaster. And he was very good. Very good indeed. And —
HH: So when war broke out how old were you?
PP: When the war broke out I was nineteen.
HH: And what made you volunteer for Bomber Command?
PP: Oh, I didn’t volunteer for Bomber Command. I wanted to be a pilot.
HH: You just wanted to be a pilot.
PP: Didn’t mind what I wanted to be.
HH: Ok.
PP: Yes. So, and all that happened was that they agreed that I could be a wireless operator/air gunner. So when I came back, my parents separated and, and I lived in Gainsborough. My mother went down to London. She got a job down in London and I was brought up by grandma, my grandfather. And grandad, he was the manager of the local Co-op branch in Gainsborough. Do you know Gainsborough?
HH: Yes.
PP: Well where the number 1 is, where the Yarborough Pub used to be, at the side of it there was a Number 1 Branch. And in those days it was the most effective branch of the, when the Co-op first started in Gainsborough. And so I, I lived there and I joined the Rowing Club and I used to row on the River Trent. And what happened after that? Oh then of course the war broke out and they, he signed me up and I was going to be a wireless operator/air gunner. But they didn’t want me straight away. It might be six months before I was called up. So I was called up and went to Blackpool and these are all the photographs of —
HH: Now, was that where you were, where you did your training?
PP: Well, I was, I was nineteen when I was first called up and got trained. Training at, all these photographs of when I was, when I was at Blackpool you see.
HH: So you were called up.
PP: Pardon?
HH: You were called up.
PP: Oh no. I volunteered.
HH: So you volunteered. Ok.
PP: They signed me up when I first tried to be a pilot you see.
HH: Ok.
PP: But I couldn’t.
HH: So were, did you go to an Operational Training Unit in Blackpool then?
PP: Oh no. No. We went to Blackpool to learn Morse. I was completely, didn’t know one thing from another. So when I came back — I used to breed budgerigars and I used to breed budgerigars in, in my grandma’s shed. And when I came back after being signed on as it were, well I was signed. I was signed on as Volunteer Reserve at that point. And when I came, when I came back I bought a Morse buzzer and I bought a Morse key and I bought the batteries and I wired it up so I could send Morse. And I asked, every time when I finished work at 6 o’clock at half past six I had, I had an hour in my garden shed with the chattering budgerigars and the Morse key and the buzzer and I was sending Morse. That happened for about six months. I’m getting in line now. That happened about six months. And one night there was a knock on the door. Quite a rather impatient knock at the door. And I went to the door and I opened the door and there were two policemen outside and a sergeant and a constable. And they’d been, they’d been warned of hearing Morse signals above the budgie chatter every night sending, somebody sending Morse [laughs]. You see. And of course I had to show them my papers and I told them what I was doing. And he said, ‘Oh good for you lad. You’re very good.’ And so that’s alright. And that, that was that it. Then about three months later I was called up to Blackpool.
HH: And how long were you in Blackpool?
PP: In Blackpool about six to eight months. They took us up to Morse. It’s all in here. They took us up to up to Morse, up to twelve thirteen words a minute Morse you see. And six, and half a day Morse and half a day square bashing. So we had a rare old time [laughs] in Blackpool for that, that time. Yes. And then when I, when we, when we qualified to get up to that we were posted to Yatesbury and then we did our first flying which was the first.
HH: Did, were you in Yatesbury for the duration of the war more or less then?
PP: Pardon?
HH: After that were you at Yatesbury more or less for the rest of the war?
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. These are all the flights I did you see.
HH: Do you — how many? Do you know off hand how many?
PP: Well, in that time I’d done, I’d done —
HH: Six hundred.
PP: I didn’t do it but the Gainsborough News, over six hundred. Over six hundred. But that was only half of them because he counted them. I’ve been in the Gainsborough News several times. And I’m on, I’m on, on the computer. I’m on what the hell do you call you on the computer? If you read up Peter Parker, RAF, Gainsborough in the —
HH: I’ll find you will I?
PP: But it’s all, oh yes, but it’s all in here.
HH: Ok. I’ll have a look.
Other: It’s at the Gainsborough Heritage Centre. He’s had an exhibition in the Gainsborough Heritage Centre with all his photographs and things.
HH: Fantastic.
Other: When they did a Bomber Command Exhibition about a couple of years ago.
PP: So that’s —
Other: At the Gainsborough Heritage Centre.
PP: There was one of the lads, you see that I was with staying at Blackpool and that [pause] where am I? I’m here. I’m there. And —
Other: There’s loads of stuff here to see.
PP: As I say they were all killed. Fifty of us went under the Empire Air Training Scheme and they trained pilots, navigators in Canada and America. In South Africa. But I was —
HH: Did you ever visit any of those places?
PP: Did I?
HH: Did you visit any of those places?
PP: No. Oh no. I wasn’t put there. No. I’d been here all the time.
HH: You were, you were at Yatesbury.
PP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh I’ve been, I was up at Elsham Wolds. That was a Lancaster squadron.
HH: It was.
PP: And I’ve, it’s in my flying logbook. I I was on Training Command you see. And they were so busy that night they didn’t want, they hadn’t time to bother with me much. They said, ‘Bugger off home. And if anybody asks you what you’re doing tell them you’re on day off.’ And he said, ‘I’ll have you a flight organized by next Thursday.’ And I came back on the Thursday and he stuck me in with a crew and they, they’re job was to go up and they’d got photographers as well. Photographers training, ‘Well this is your briefing. You’re going up to Newcastle. You’re going to bomb, photograph one of the bridges. Then you’re going to bomb it. And then you’re going up to the, to the Shetland Islands and you’re going to bomb a place at the Shetland Islands. But before you bomb it, the bomb aimer presses his button you, you’ve, we want you we’ve got to photograph it.’ So we go in and photograph it for the photographers.
Other: That was, that’s —
PP: And then, and then, and that was it.
Other: That’s my dad look there. That was a Dominie and that’s the wireless instructors so.
HH: This is great thank you.
PP: Where’s that — ?
HH: I’ll have a look at that.
PP: Where’s that other book there?
Other: That’s it.
PP: There.
Other: Pardon?
PP: The other. This one look. Pass me that one Jane. This one.
Other: Oh that was the opening of the Spire that one. That’s at the opening of the Spire.
PP: Where is it? No. Where’s the other one like this? Is it around the corner there?
Other: I don’t know dad.
PP: That’s in Switzerland. You’re not interested in that are you?
HH: Is that, is that after the war?
PP: Yeah.
HH: We can look at that after when we’ve talked some more.
Other: That’s up there. They just want —
PP: Have a look at it.
Other: No. She doesn’t want that.
HH: Wonderful.
PP: You can —
HH: Yes. I think that’s that one isn’t it?
PP: Eh?
HH: That’s, that’s a bigger version.
PP: That’s all there.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s all there.
HH: So what did — did you train air gunners, wireless operators for various different kinds of aircraft?
PP: Oh yes. In the air. When I was first an instructor I was, I was on Blenheims. Oh dear dear dear. Blenheims.
HH: Halifaxes.
PP: The early. The early, early bombers. There was Blenheims.
HH: Manchester.
PP: No. No, that’s no that’s the —
Other: Halifaxes.
HH: Halifaxes.
PP: No. They’re the four bombers.
HH: Stirlings.
PP: Stirlings, yes. And — well they’re all in —
Other: Lancasters.
HH: And then Lancasters a bit later were —
PP: That’s, that’s another. That’s [pause] that’s me there you see. See what it tells you [pause] Six hundred and twelve flights, in. That was in 1943 but at, shortly after that I did, oh I can’t tell you the full. I’ve done more than that anyway. If you read that —
HH: That’s a lot.
PP: If you read that that’ll tell you all about it. And that’s, you would be at this would you, this? Yes.
HH: Yeah. I was there.
PP: That’s, that’s that one. That’s that one that’s up there.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Yeah.
HH: These are wonderful. This is a great story.
PP: Pardon?
HH: We’ll, we’ll make a copy of the story for the Archive as well.
PP: That’s here look.
HH: And that was you at the opening of the —
PP: Yes.
HH: At the unveiling of the Spire.
PP: But this fella mustn’t be touched at all.
Other: Benjamin. We don’t want any pictures of Benjamin because Benjamin, because he’s —
HH: No. No. We won’t.
Other: No. Because with him being in the RAF and his job.
HH: Yeah. No, that’s absolutely fine.
Other: I get told off. Well, I get told off.
PP: That’s all, these are all Claire’s pupils.
HH: That’s right.
PP: Has she shown you them? Oh you’ve seen all these then.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s, I was second one here somewhere. I think that’s my bald head there.
HH: Did you enjoy that day?
PP: Eh? Lovely.
HH: Did you enjoy the day?
PP: Oh yes. It was a grand day. Every aircraft. Look. It tells you here look. Due to overflight.
HH: That’s right. Blenheim.
PP: Every, every aircraft that flew. Yes. The Lancaster.
HH: And the Lancaster was supposed to fly but didn’t.
PP: Yes. Yes.
HH: And then the Vulcan last.
PP: The Vulcan. That’s right. Yes.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: And they came around and just swept past. Well, you’d have seen all that.
HH: Yeah. It was very, very moving.
Other: It’s a pity I couldn’t have gone really but I had to look after mum so — yeah.
PP: And presumably, presumably some of these, these girls had relations that were on that.
HH: Yeah.
PP: But don’t —
HH: No.
PP: No.
HH: Understood.
PP: That’s him there. You see.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s Claire’s, that’s Claire’s —
HH: Fantastic day.
PP: She probably told you about that.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: Has she?
HH: Yeah.
PP: But this is my, this is —
[pause]
HH: That’s a very lovingly made scrapbook. I can tell.
Other: Yeah.
PP: This is right from the beginning, you see. This [pause] that’s giving all —
HH: These are all copies of your qualifications.
PP: That’s Guy Gibson.
HH: Have you, did you know Guy Gibson?
PP: Oh no. I’d nothing to do with him. No.
HH: No.
PP: That’s just cuttings that I found in newspapers.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: That’s an instructor with his five cadets you see.
HH: So that’s very similar to the job you did.
PP: Pardon?
HH: That’s very similar to the, to the role you played.
PP: Yes.
HH: As an instructor.
HH: Yes that’s — yes.
[pause]
PP: No known survivors. I didn’t know. Not know. Didn’t know.
HH: So sad. I mean the attrition rate was so high in Bomber Command wasn’t it?
Other: Yeah. It was. Yeah.
PP: You can take this and sort this out if you want to. Do you want to take this?
HH: That would be lovely but what we’ll do is we, what we do is with with collections like this is that we, we will photograph it as if it is a scrapbook.
Other: Ok.
HH: So it comes out just like the scrapbook.
Other: Yes.
HH: Rather than individual pictures or anything.
Other: Oh brilliant.
HH: We will keep it as a scrapbook.
Other: Yeah.
HH: So that’s how it will be presented.
Other: Oh lovely.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Have you come across that? Look. Take an example. A hundred airmen. Fifty one were killed.
HH: On operations.
PP: And nine killed on active service. Three seriously injured. Twelve taken prisoner of war. One shot down. One survived.
HH: One survivor.
PP: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Of a hundred. Yeah.
PP: So that’s in there. You can take, oh and I have got some photographs at at [pause] what’s that at? At the airfield.
HH: East Kirkby.
PP: Eh?
HH: East Kirkby.
PP: East Kirkby. That’s right. I’ve got some photographs in there.
HH: We’ll go and have a look.
PP: That’s the big, we used to get up on the Big Ben’s roof. Opposite Big Ben. On the roof. Jerry watching.
HH: So you were in London then were you?
PP: And these look. There’s one thing that’s quite interesting. I challenged them, challenged these people, this newspaper, Sunday paper was a whole lot of bullshit. You know. It didn’t happen.
HH: Well good. We need people to do that.
PP: I could prove it so, so you could take all that.
HH: Great. Thank you.
PP: Night fighters fed on carrots [laughs] Do you want to take this?
HH: Thank you. That would be great. Well we, everything we’ll take I will give you a receipt for and I will return it.
Other: Ok.
HH: Soon.
Other: Yeah.
PP: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Ok. But you were going to tell me some of your, your stories.
PP: Eh?
HH: You were going to tell me some of your stories.
PP: Yes. Well yeah. Yeah.
HH: And I want to tell me the one about training those coloured aircrew. The wireless operators who were sick.
PP: Yes. Yes. Yes.
HH: Now, where were they from? Those.
PP: They were from Algeria.
HH: From Algeria.
PP: They were French. French. I’m sure they were Algerian. Algerians.
HH: And they were being, you were training, you were instructing them for what purpose?
PP: Well, they wanted to set up a bomber squadron you see.
HH: The Free French.
PP: That was de Gaulle. He was in charge of the Free French. And he wanted —
HH: And they were sent to you.
PP: He wanted to set up a squadron.
HH: And they were —
PP: And they did.
HH: And they were sent to you for training.
PP: They agreed with that but we had the job of training the wireless operators.
HH: And what was it like?
PP: Eh?
HH: What was it like?
PP: Oh. Oh, well apart from them being sick you know, the [laughs] you had to give them, you get them to a certain standard you see and then sign out what they’d done on this standard you see. Yes. Oh yes. We had the whole thing. I’m just thinking there was something else. Oh yes. Aye. Yes. One day, you know how, how they, you know the warrant officer runs the station. You know they look after the complete job and the parade ground is the, is the, the pet thing of his. He does all of his square bashing on this parade ground and one day we were back late. Oh no. Before I start on that one was that there was a difficulty with accommodation and I was, when I was given this job they’d no accommodation. And they gave me accommodation in the radar section. You know at Yatesbury they used to deliver. They’d the four wings. One wing was radar and three wings were wireless operators, air, wireless operators. Morse. Oh dear. Oh yes and in this, in this case we were late down. We were the last in. So I gets on my bike and I used to have to cycle in to, to this four wing, to this radio section in needles. So we were down late and I got my bike and off I, and I had to break in the camp the back way because it was a bit shorter. And I came in the back way and to get to the, to get to the cookhouse, the cookhouse was here and I had to come in and I came in down there from across the road and I had to get across here. So I took, got my bike and got halfway across the parade ground and there was, there was [laughs] a, ‘What the bloody hell are you doing out there airman? Come this way airman.’ And of course I came back and it was the duty officer with the duty sergeant. The warrant officer with the duty sergeant. And he asked, I had to tell him, I said, ‘Well I have been on this, on your wing for now about six weeks. I just sleep here. Sleep with you and feed with you and I come and get my meals every day.’ And then he, then he said —
HH: He let you go?
PP: He changed his tune then. ‘I didn’t know I had a flying man on my wing.’ He was quite, you know. And so I, that was that was alright. And after that he ate out my hand, you know if I wanted a pass doing. So many people knew. Oh. He thought I was a wonderful lad.
HH: Good.
PP: Oh dear. I can’t remember all these things.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: I had a good time. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
HH: Did you?
PP: And I got into some queer, queer spots some times. We had, in the early days we had to get a bath in six inches of water you know. Hot water. Then of course the thing is you’d got to make sure the duty sergeant didn’t find he was with a bath half full.
HH: Too much.
PP: Oh dear. So that, oh yes we had some real good stories.
HH: And how long did you stay at Yatesbury?
PP: Yatesbury. Oh I was at Yatesbury all the time. Until the war, until the war was finished. And when it was finished there was no, no requirements for instructors you see. We were all stopped. And I was then posted. Posted to Madley in Herefordshire. They were training wireless operators as well. And when I got there, when I got there was going to be a special classroom made. We were in real trouble you know. They were sinking, the submarines were sinking ships, and they delegated five squadrons from up near York. You know, in Yorkshire. Yorkshire was all Halifaxes. They were shipped down to, to [pause] yes they were stripped down to Coastal Command. They were sub hunting you see. They give them more staff. I can’t remember it all but instead of having two wireless operators they had two radar operators and two wireless operators and they were hunting submarines. Oh dear. I can’t.
HH: Yeah.
PP: I’ve got to piece all these things together.
HH: Well, yes. It happened quite a long time ago.
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. It was. Yes. Yes. Aye.
HH: So, I saw in one of the documents that you showed me a moment ago that you must have trained over three thousand wireless operators/air gunners.
PP: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Oh yes. That was what they, that was what the [unclear] told. The news correspondent from the start. He asked me the same question. I said I don’t know. That’s the flying there. And all that. If you’d like to count all those flights up [laughs] all these flights up. And that. He —
HH: A lot.
PP: He came up with that figure you see. So. Oh I’d more than that. Yes.
HH: So you must have trained people from almost every part of the world.
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. Well, see what it says here look. It’s all in here.
HH: Is that your logbook?
PP: United Nations pilots flown with. Polish.
HH: Polish.
PP: Canadian, Irish, South African, Czech, Belgian, New Zealand. Oh and Australia.
HH: Not bad.
PP: And those are the aircraft I flew in.
HH: And you can add Algeria as well.
PP: Pardon?
HH: And Algeria from the story you told earlier.
PP: Oh they came to our school you see.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Yes. Yeah.
HH: So yeah.
PP: And I never thought that, I was the youngest you see. There was two of us. Two youngsters. All the rest of the instructors were living out and they were regulars. But if you go through that it’s quite, quite interesting really.
HH: I’m sure. This dropped out.
PP: Oh yes. That can come out. You can take that if you like [pause] Do you want to take that then?
HH: Thank you very much and —
PP: And how long will it be before I get this back?
HH: We will try to do it within a week.
PP: Oh. Oh, I don’t mean as quick as that but I promised the girl at the news office to give her some dough but I didn’t want to — I’d so much on I hadn’t time to sort all these things out.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Oh, these here. Did I go through this?
HH: Yes.
PP: Yes. There’s everything here.
HH: So when did you leave the RAF? Did you continue? Did you continue in the RAF after the war?
PP: Oh no. Oh no.
HH: So what did you do after the war?
PP: No. Good. Well I worked for a builder’s and plumber’s merchant. You know Jackson Shipley?
HH: Oh Jackson’s, yes.
PP: Do you know them do you? Do you know Eric Jackson?
HH: No. And did you work for them all the time?
PP: Yes. Yes.
HH: Since the war.
PP: Yes. I was with Shipley’s and I was corresponding with Eric, Eric Jackson. I knew him, I knew him when he was, when the two lads were down here and he set his first station up. First thing up. Where is it here? Surprised [pause] If I can find the right file.
HH: Gosh.
PP: I’ve just got letters that I had from him. I can show you. I can show you those another time. I’ve got letters from Eric Jackson when he was starting his first, first shop at the corner of Tentercroft Street.
HH: I know where that is. Yeah.
PP: He started his first shop then.
HH: Gosh.
PP: Yeah. And then, then he wanted me to go to work. I could have had a job from him in 1947. He wanted to give me a job. I said. ‘Well, I’ve already been told by our governor at Gainsborough that they’re going to open a showroom and I’m going to be the manager.’ So I was manager of plumbing and heating when I came out. Yeah. Right ‘til the, you know, right to the, well to leaving. I didn’t want to go. He wanted me to manage the other branch outside so but I was quite happy at Gainsborough.
HH: In Gainsborough.
PP: Yeah.
HH: So when did you, when did you retire from that?
PP: In ’85. I think that was it. Are you recording all this? It isn’t worth recording is it? [laughs]
HH: It’s interesting to —
PP: About a job.
HH: It’s interesting to know what people have done since the war.
PP: Yeah.
HH: Have you been active in any of the squadron associations or the air base associations at all?
PP: No. No. No. Oh I was a Civil Defence Instructor. Yes. I’ve got some, I’ve got all my — where are we?
HH: And was that in Gainsborough?
PP: Yes. I was Civil Defence Instructor for lecturing on nuclear weapons.
HH: Goodness me.
PP: For oh about four years. I used to go around all the schools. I’ve got them. I’ve got all my letters here somewhere. Oh dear.
HH: You’ve got quite a record of your own. You’ve got your own archive here.
PP: Where did I put them?
HH: Careful.
PP: It’s my legs that are the trouble now.
[pause]
HH: That looks like an interesting bag.
[pause]
PP: Those were all my lessons.
HH: Goodness me. Gosh. You’ve kept all of your lecturer’s notes. So would that would have been in the 1950s or 60s?
PP: That was it. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And that was to school. You went around schools did you?
PP: Pardon?
HH: You went around schools did you?
PP: Well, the schools were used you see. Not the school. For the members to set up. To set up a — excuse me.
HH: That’s ok.
PP: I don’t know whether I’m coming or going. That’s quite an interesting one. Read what it says there. I’ve a cousin that’s an international clothing manufacturer. And he has businesses in Japan and he and he’s dealing with all places in Europe and he’s got places in in America and Canada.
HH: So he’s in to clothing. He and he is also a veteran of the RAF it says. Yeah. Very stylish.
PP: Oh. Oh dear. You’re going to have a job sorting that out.
HH: No. It’s absolutely fine.
PP: What else have I —
HH: In fact, what I’m going to do is perhaps we can —
PP: What else have I got?
HH: Are there any other stories you’d like to tell?
PP: Eh?
HH: Are there any other stories of your time at Yatesbury that you’d like to tell?
PP: That I’d —
HH: Any other stories from your time at Yatesbury?
PP: Well, well apart from coming the back way at two and 3 o’clock in the morning. Oh yes. We had, oh yes, we used to get up to some tricks one way and another. Yeah. As I say the one where they had to wipe all the aircraft up because all the, all the pages of the exercise books were all stuck where they’d tried to throw it out the window. What was the other one? There was another one. Oh, the other one. I can think of a few more I think one way and another. But let’s have a look. See what else I’ve got. Oh. My knees are not very good.
[pause]
HH: Is that another of your scrapbooks?
PP: That’s the one I was talking to you about. Eric Jackson.
HH: Oh yes.
PP: That’s from Eric Jackson look. You can read that if you want to.
HH: This is a letter from Eric Jackson in 1971.
PP: Yeah. But I wouldn’t, I don’t think that ought to be actually —
HH: No.
PP: I don’t think that ought to be —
HH: That’s an interesting letter. No. Of course not.
PP: I was on heating. I was in charge of heating you see. Heating and bathroom equipment and plumbing. And this is what it says here look, “Will you please convey my personal thanks and thanks of our two representatives to Mr Peter Parker who assisted us in manning the stand. I am quite certain that without his expert knowledge of potential customers we would not have enjoyed such a good return.” And a pat on the back.
HH: That’s a nice letter to get. That’s 1977.
PP: I have been advised not to pass notes at all from this year’s stripper. They used to have a stripper [laughs] Oh dear.
HH: Talking about heating.
PP: Eh?
HH: Talking about heating reminds me of something that I read about being in a Lancaster. That the wireless operator was, his was the warmest place in the plane.
PP: Oh yes it was.
HH: Was that right?
PP: Oh yes. It was. Yes. Yes. Yes.
HH: And was that an attraction of the job?
PP: Yes. Yes. Well, I don’t know it meant much about the job, you know. But it was in quite a warm spot but you couldn’t see what was going on you see. But the biggest job of the wireless operator was, was getting them home. You imagine the thousand bombers bombing a target. Then they’ve got to come back and find England. Then when they found England they’ve got to find out where —
HH: They’ve got to land.
PP: So the wireless operator will contact two or three spots and when it crossed, like the points crosses that’s where you are. You could tell the pilot where he was. And it was up to him to steer from that point to get to England. Some did overfly England [laughs] Yeah. Yes. You wouldn’t believe it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s me when I was fifteen or sixteen.
HH: Where was that taken?
PP: Newcastle.
HH: In Newcastle.
PP: Yes.
HH: Whereabouts in Newcastle?
PP: Condercum Road. Why? Do you know Newcastle?
HH: My granny was born in Blaydon.
PP: Blaydon. You could hear the Blaydon Races. Good heavens above. Yes. Aye. Oh yes. Yes. And Cabourn. If you look at Cabourn. Cabourn in the, on your computer he’s got, he’s got two businesses in Japan and he’s known all in New Zealand. Not New Zealand. All over Europe anyway. And also in Canada. And also in America.
HH: I will. What I’m going to do is just to say thank you very much for this interview and also to your daughter Jane —
PP: Yes.
HH: Because she was here for some of it and I’m now going to turn the tape recorder off.
PP: Yes ok.
[recording paused]
PP: I was aircrew and I had a eye test when I was posted to a gunnery school. In five weeks I would have been a sergeant. And they were, the situation was that they found that I had a slightly defective right eye and the optician said, ‘He’ll never fly again.’ It’s all, all in here. And, and then two years later I had a, I was annoyed and I got, I went and demanded to see the CO and I told him the whole history talking to you. He were a grand fellow. He ran the whole caboodle. And the old warrant officer, the bullshit warrant officer, you know, he was in it, he was [unclear] something. He said, ‘Well, I’m going now.’ And he said, ‘Just a minute Parker. Come here a minute. What do you think about working at Yatesbury? Sending Morse?’ Well, to tell you the truth I’d not thought about it. I wanted to fly. But on the other hand I had heard that there’s boatloads of wireless operators being sent out to the desert and sent and sent to Burma. ‘Yes. If you’ll give me a job I’ll have it.’ ‘You’ve got a bike haven’t you?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Alright. Monday morning take your bike and go across the flying school. You know where the flying school is. Where the big hangar is. And go and sign there. And you’ll, you’ll work in a receiving station.’ And there was ten of us all working an aircraft each. Going through the various exercises. What, what happened then? Oh and that was a lovely job, piece of cake. We used to watch rabbits. We used to watch rabbits on a rabbit warren. And we had a medical orderly, Corporal medical orderly, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’ve got some ferrets at home. I’ll bring a ferret next time I come. Next time I go on leave.’ And true to his word he brought, brought a ferret and we had a ferret in the hut. And then we used to go to this rabbit warren and put the, put the, put the ferret down and the rabbits used to come out and we used to have rabbits. Rabbit stew in the hut. We used to have two, two stoves. You see this wasn’t the RAF. It belonged to the Bristol Aircraft Company you see. And we had two stoves and we used to strip rabbits and have rabbit stew on the brew.
HH: Very nice.
PP: And then one, and then another time it was probably three or four months later we put the old ferret down, and he got down. He seemed a long time and then we happened to look up. Looked around. And there was cattle all around. You know they’re very inquisitive, cows are. And we were lying down on the floor, and these rabbit holes and it had brought the cows were all slowly meandered up and they were all around us you see. And then that never came. That was it. The ferret never came, the what do they call it? The one I put down the hole.
HH: The ferret.
PP: The ferret. Yes.
HH: Never came back.
PP: Never came back. No. So that was the end of that.
HH: What a pity.
PP: Oh we had some, oh we had some raw times yes. And nobody bothered us you see. We weren’t, all we would do was fed. We just got fed and fly. And flew you see. So I did four flights a day. You’ll see it in that book there.
HH: Four flights a day.
PP: Four flights a day. Yes. From Monday to, Monday, Monday to Friday. Not Saturday.
HH: And how long was each flight?
PP: Each flight was oh about an hour, an hour and a quarter. We used to fly all over the place. Except when, when you know the landings came. When they were training. Oh we came across towing gliders. You know. Ready for the place too far. Stage too far. You know. That one. I used to know, I used to know a pal that was, we used to go out and have meals together each week. He was a wing commander and he used to tell me all his stories. Oh dear. He’s died now though. He died three or four weeks ago. I still keep in touch with his wife. And he was, he was [pause] he was a Cambridge. This is a good story really. He was a Cambridge man. When he passed out from Cambridge they sent him to the RAF as a pilot and he was a Spitfire pilot and got trained as a Spitfire pilot. And then he was posted and they sent a, they sent along a [pause], they sent along [pause] Oh it’s gone. Anyway, it was, it was an old aircraft and no good at all. You know if Jerry had seen it he could have knocked him down straight away and they’d sent him to France with another, another four or five pilots and he’d just, out of training school. They landed in France on a grass field site. And they landed in France in a tented camp. And when they went there, when they landed there there was a row of ten brand new Spitfires straight from the works and they had a wizard, they had a wizard time flying these Spitfires around until Jerry broke through. Jerry broke through you know and overran France and they had to, had to go and he was the last one off. And he was taking this Spitfire down the drive and he happened to look and he saw there was one bloke going around. So he went around again and watched him. And he was going in to vehicles. So he went around again and landed. And it was the warrant officer in charge of the, in charge of this camp and all he was doing it was setting all the machines. All the traffic. They’d escaped to the coast you see to make the raid back home. They’d gone to the coast and all the vehicles that were left, he’d started all the engines, put them on full blast so it, so they ruined them. It ruined them. And then he told him, and he told him, ‘Get in the back here. I’ll take you off home.’ He said, ‘I’m not, I’m not. You’re not allowed to you take you in your aircraft.’ ‘That’s an order. You get back there and we’re going home. I’m going home and you’re coming with me.’ And he took him home and when he got, when he got, when he got home, when he got to the base they put him on a charge for putting an aircraft at risk with putting more people into it. And of course he explained it all. And then in the end he got the French Croix, Croix de Guerre. He’d a row of medals. He got a French Croix de Guerre for, for doing what he did.
HH: Gosh.
PP: In fact, he was then, he was then then [pause] he was then given the job of with the Resistance in France and he used to fly Lysanders in to France doing all, all the various things. In the end he was made paymaster and he used to used to, used to go out in a, in a, in a Lysander. Lysander. That was what it was. And in the end he used to go out with a, in a Lysander and pay the Resistance men. Aye.
HH: Fantastic.
PP: That was, that was a good story. That was one story he told me.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Parker
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AParkerPTW160106
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:46:16 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Parker grew up in Gainsborough. He had hoped to be a pilot but was unsuccessful, however as he had taught himself Morse code in his shed at home he trained as a wireless operator and became an instructor. He was posted to RAF Yatesbury and trained hundreds of wireless operators during his posting. After the war he returned to work in Gainsborough for Jackson Shipley, a builder’s merchants company, while also being a Civil Defence Instructor.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Peter Schulze
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Training Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
aircrew
civil defence
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Madley
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1074/11532/APickwellBW170317.2.mp3
40826da8f9379e7b40076305fb265bb1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pickwell, Beryl
Beryl W Pickwell
B W Pickwell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Beryl Pickwell. She grew up in Lincoln during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pickwell, BW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HD: This is Helen Durham conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive on Friday, the 17th of March 2017, commencing at 11.25. I’m here to interview Mrs. Beryl Pickwell. Hello Beryl. Thank you ever so much for allowing us to come and interview. What I want to talk about first of all is your childhood and life before the Second World War.
BP: Oh yes. Well, there’s a lot of story with that. Uhm, my mother had, when she, she got married uhm, because she became pregnant by meeting up at Gainsborough with one of the footballers at Gainsborough as she was working on the pub at Gainsborough and that’s how they met. Mum, who knew nothing at that time about sex or anything else, became pregnant so she got knocked away from her own home and had to go and stay with her husband eventually, it was her husband, they got married and uhm she had her first child and when the little life was being born, she was so naïve that she said to her husband’s mother, when do they cut me to get the baby out? And the mother-in-law said, they won’t cut you, it will come out, and my mother said, you can’t possibly do that! And then, when it was, she, the boy was born, she said, oh my Lord, I didn’t think that would happen. And actually my mum had five children in, one after the other, she had three boys first and then two girls and by the time I came on the front, they were all teenagers, yes, the one that was nearest to me was my sister Vera who was fifteen, so mum had had all these other five [laughs] before I came. Now, suddenly out of the blue, mother thinks, oh my God she’s pregnant again, how could that have happened? And it’s been a total joke in our family ever since that mum and dad had been on a friend’s party and it was one of those nights when they got drunk and apparently they stopped in a passage on the way home, had a little bit of the humpy dumpy and that became me. So, I’d got five grown up children living there, three brothers, two sisters, and me as a little baby, running up and down on the settee at night when I was waiting for them to come in from the pub or wherever they’d been and I won’t go to bed without them taking me to bed, so they used to take me to bed and I used to say, I’m not going to bed when I [unclear] and used to shout downstairs at the lads, come and fetch her, she’s waking us up [laughs] and I used to say, I want to listen to the big crossings and the little crossings [laughs], it’s hilarious really and so,
HD: Did you live in Lincoln?
BP: Yes, Clifton Street, in Lincoln, which was very, very near the railway line, the one that is still there and also very, very near the big common, which was there and in fact you could see the big common from out of our bedroom window but as usual they messed it up when they pulled down all the houses around there to make places for a place like Tesco and stuff like that. But, yeah, I was a naughty little girl I think, but spoiled to death by my sisters and brothers. Yeah [laughs].
HD: So, a very happy family.
BP: Yes.
HD: Yes.
BP: Yes.
HD: And then, the war was declared in 1939.
BP: That’s right.
HD: Do you remember that?
BP: I do remember it very well because before we actually got the actual declaration, I realised that my dad and my, two of my brothers who were working within factories building war material, there was something very strange going on and I was only about nine, eight or nine o’clock then, not eight or nine o’clock,
HD: Yes.
BP: That age, and my dad came home from work in all his working clothes cause he wanted to hear what was gonna be announced on the radio, as we had the radio in those days. And he came round and I was sitting on the table with mum washing me legs as I said before, when we got the message over the radio and my dad said, oh my God, what’s gonna happen now? So my Dad and two of my brothers were immediately put on, you’re permanently working on your factory, you were not gonna be in the army, you see, because they needed to make the works, so
HD: Which factory did they work in?
BP: Uhm, Clarke’s Crank works, my mum, my dad rather, and Ruston and Hornsby me brothers. Yeah, and my dad’s was working in, possible [unclear] street actually nearly it was, it was a massive big thing that he was making, it was huge, and it was something to do with, uhm, some ship or something and it used to make a terrible noise and it was huge and I used to take round to my dad, go in there with all the noise rattling to take a little jarful, a tea potful which I still got the teapot of, little plastic teapot, to take me dad a drink and let him have that and he did alternate shifts with Les, my oldest brother, so mum, me dad did the day, and Les did the night and they were at it all the time and then Ron, the other one, he was at Ruston and Hornsby and he was working there and then Vera, the sister who became the next one to me, she got into one of the works there and she was making like little, you would call them to be allowed sandbank things in the past, but they weren’t, they were used to make like a hole in the ground and they used to put sand and then sort of something in, they were making some chemical of some sort,
HD: Right.
BP: And she worked there for a long time. They used to pull her leg, she met her boyfriend there who she eventually married.
HD: Very good.
BP: So,
HD: So, it was a busy household.
BP: It was a busy household, yeah, and my mother was always wanting to work, she liked working, she was very hard working, she would’ve done with all those children, I think I was the bit of a trouble, you know [laughs].
HD: So, you were nine when you were [unclear]
BP: I was nine and Mum knew that there was going to be an announcement made, Dad knew there was, I mean, he came in from work, to listen, put, I was sitting on the table having me legs washed and what not, and listened to it, heard it all, we are at war with Germany, and I didn’t know what was going on but of course they did and they were so upset about it and oh my God, you know, now what’s it gonna be like and off we went from there.
HD: And did any of your brothers, were they ever called up? Or your sisters?
BP: No, because they were working in the factories, so they,
HD: So they never
BP: No, they were on jobs that they’d got to do so they didn’t get called up, no, and the same with me sister, she chose to go and work in the factory,
HD: Yeah,
BP: And the younger one, she worked in an office somewhere I think but nothing that needed anything and I was just sort of left from that, eight years old, wasn’t I then? Eight years old, you know, sort of wondering what was going on all the time. And the first time I ever saw, for example, the gas masks, I thought, my God, what’s this sort of strange thing that we’ve got? And we all had gas masks. Now, by this time, I realised there was something going on and it was something really important that my dad was always talking about and what was happening but I didn’t really know what was going on but I did know we were at war with Germany but between being eight and ten I sort of grown up a little bit, and I got, I don’t know, a test at St Andrews School in Lincoln and when they picked out people that they thought would be better going up to a better school, I got a place at South Park High School for girls which in those days was very, very posh [laughs] and I was ten when I went up there and of course it was wartime but my mum was so determined to get me the exact school uniform so that I had to look beautiful, you know, and most of them up there came from very rich families cause they paid to go to that one, which is a bit like LST, LSD now, and I loved every minute of that then. Well, of course we had these gas masks given to us which were horrible things and we used to have to carry these to school with us in a bag, you always had to carry your gas mask up to the school cause it was wartime of course and occasionally while we were up there the sirens would go, the war sirens [mimics the sound of the siren] like that sort of thing, and when that happened, we used to have to run like mad into the top field in the school where they’d made some air raid wardens, little air raid wardens, we’d all have to go in there,
HD: Were they the Anderson shelters?
BP: Similar thing to that, yeah, covered in soil though to make them
HD: Camouflaged.
BP: Yeah, that’s right. And we used to have to rush into that and get in that until we could all come out again, you know, and all that sort of thing, so,
HD: What was your experience, when you all had to go in?
BP: Well, we realised it was war, but we were hoping we weren’t gonna be bombs dropping on us and one thing or the other, but one terrible thing did happen, one of the lovely girls who was at school with us, she unfortunately, was actually killed by a bomber, it was on a Sunday afternoon, it was in one of the streets off Skellingthorpe Road, just coming up to the top where it becomes, where the chemist is, that sort of thing, and the bomb dropped right on their house and killed her and the family and we found out about it at school the next day and we had a special prayer at school and everyone was, were in tears that she’d been killed and she was only about my age, at that time, so that was a very near one, you know, for us but it was terrible that one.
HD: Did you have many bombs, dropped on Lincoln?
BP: Not a lot, we had, the one I remember was the, they bombed one of the film places in Lincoln, that was the one that was nearly opposite St, now what is it? Still there, the church that’s still in High Street, oh dear, what’s the name?
HD: St Mary’s?
BP: No, it’s not St Mary’s, uhm, now what’s it called? It’s still there, the church is still there, as you go up Broadgate, it’s on the left-hand side, as you go up Broadgate,
HD: Right, oh, uhm,
BP: Now, what’s it called? St, my husband was a boy singer in it and I can’t remember the name of it.
HD: It’s St Hugh’s, the Catholic church?
BP: No, no,
HD: No,
BP: It’s before you get to the Catholic church, on the other side of the road,
HD: Oh, St Swithin’s.
BP: St Swithin’s, that was it, yeah, that’s the one and yeah, what can I tell you about that?
HD: Yes, there was, was there a bomb there or?
BP: No, what, at St Swithin’s church?
HD: At St Swithin’s.
BP: No, no, there was no bomb there, that they, they had a big boys choir and they had lots of stuff there but it wasn’t bombed there, no, no
HD: No. Can you remember any of the other places in Lincoln [unclear]?
BP: I’m just trying to think, yeah, one of them was, it was a cinema in Lincoln and it was eventually became after the war, it became a place for, uhm, offices and that kind of thing, but this particular show, which I can’t remember the name of, was smashed to bits, yeah, that was bombed to bits, that one, you’d have to find out what the names of
HD: Yes, is that where the ABC used to be?
BP: No,
HD: No, not that one
BP: No, the ABC was near the river, that was the one that was there for donkey’s years.
HD: Yes.
BP: It was further in the land than that one, it was, not that far from where I’ve just told you about
HD: St Swithin’s, yes
BP: The church, it was somewhere near there and that was bombed and destroyed completely, that one was. But we didn’t get a lot of bombs actually dropping on us because they were trying to get onto the factories and particularly they were trying to get on Ruston and Hornsby’s but they never got it because they used to get it up, mixed up with the railway line which was next to it so the bombing was coming over, they were thinking they were hitting the railway line but they weren’t, you know, they weren’t getting into the works and that was the good thing, none of that got, got done at all, it always stood intact but the railway, the railway line they got a few times. In Lincoln itself, the only ones I can remember was when the young girl was killed in just off Skellingthorpe Road and the one that was smashed down, the theatre
HD: Yeah.
BP: [unclear], in this square which I can’t remember
HD: Saltergate.
BP: It might have been Saltergate, yeah
HD: Yes, so
BP: Yeah, definitely, that was that.
HD: Going back to the air raid shelters,
BP: Yeah
HD: That you used to go to,
BP: Yeah
HD: When you were at school
BP: Yeah
HD: When you went in, how long were you there and what did you do whilst you were there?
BP: We used to run up as fast as we could get there, we used to run up with the gas masks with us, not necessarily on unless they told us to put them on, we got the sign you see originally, the noise that was going [mimics air raid siren sound], that was the quite one, that was the one that they coming but they not rise home ahead cause they were two completely different sirens, completely different. If you got the first one, we knew they were about, if you got the second one, they were above you and you’re gonna be in real trouble so we knew that, we rushed up there and got into there, waited in there till the all clear went and then we came back to school again.
HD: And were you in there a long time?
BP: Yeah, well, we used to be in there for about an hour or three quarters of an hour, something like that, until it was all clear, you see, you couldn’t go until you got the all clear sound.
HD: And what did you all do when you were
BP: Well, just talk to each other and hope it wasn’t going to drop on us and you know, and
HD: You didn’t carry on your lessons there?
BP: No, you couldn’t very well do the lessons in an Anderson shelter. No, there were about three or four of them on that top field and we just used to have to run up there as quick as we could and then when it was all clear, we all ran back to our proper classes and what not, you know, all in our nice posh uniform [laughs].
HD: So life changed dramatically then when war started.
BP: Oh yes, yes, yes.
HD: Did it change in your family?
BP: Uhm, well, it did because, I told you that two of my brothers, three, [unclear], yeah, two of my brothers were working in, one working in Ruston and Hornsby, and the other brother working with my dad at Clarke’s Crank works, now they took it in turn, me dad doing the day and me brother at night and they had these massive things going round and round and round and God knows what they were for but they were very, very important and my brother that worked at Ruston and Hornsby’s, he was making stuff as well and then the sister Vera, she went to work at the same place and she was making these model things out to what they heck they were for but she did and the only one sister of mine that didn’t have to do anything during the war cause she was younger, she worked at one of the, film places in High Street and she used to go round with the biscuits and that sort of stuff, you know,
HD: Yes.
BP: But me personally, in my case it was a question of getting ready, getting off to school and see what’s happened. The trouble came most to my mother, really, because when I was five years old, on my very first day to school, at the Baby St Andrew’s School, it was a real icy day, real cold, I went out onto the playroom and slipped and fell and fractured me thigh and of course in those days they didn’t know much about doing anything but anyway, they rushed me up to the hospital as fast as they could, stripped me of clothes off me, and my left leg was cut from the top to the bottom there twice because they couldn’t it right and I was in fact in the hospital for getting on for two years. So, it happened when I was five and I didn’t come to school till I was seven.
HD: Really? [unclear]
BP: Yeah, and I, I was in plaster of Paris all the time, my dad used to push me up, [unclear] up, [unclear] up to the hospital in a big thing, they wouldn’t let the children into the children’s wards to look at you at all, they used to bring a [unclear] round at night, and they used to bring warm milk which I can’t stand but I had to tell the nurse that I don’t like that and so then she used to bring me cold milk cause my mum had a go at her. But I had three operations, but they were never allowed to come in to actually see me, they used to sort of wave to you through a window.
HD: So, you didn’t see them for two years?
BP: No. And the only person that used to come up was the headmistress from the infant school and she came up with some little books, you know, a for apple and b for, for me to learn to read myself, which I did, and I had this fascination for little teddy bears as well and so I got tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of these teddy bears and the nurses used to laugh at these teddy bears and when I was actually sent back home again, in plasters and I think starmer legs and I got photographs of that and I was in trouble for ages before I could take these casts off and stuff, but that brings my mum into the war there and uhm, I was at home but then, when I was about seven-ish, I actually started to being able to go, get to school but walking [unclear] things on me for ages. Now, what happened was, where this involved my mother, all the other brothers and sisters were all at work, I was still at home and I was about, seven and a half, eight years old then, when knocking on the door one day, comes the man from the school checking, why isn’t your daughter at school at the moment? She’s old enough to be at school, she should not be here at home. We’re going to, you know, she’s got to go. So my mother, being telling you what she thought, she said, bugger you, she said, lot, she says, are you gonna take all her things down during the day? Are you going to take her knickers down to go for a pickle and put them back up again? She says, bugger you lot! She’s not going till she’s able to do from the hospital, she said, go away, go away! So, they said, well, it’s still not stopping you from going to work, to my mother, so she had to take work. So I got looked after by the younger sister, who was backwards and forwards working to the, one of the office, uhm, film places, yeah, where I told ye, uhm, I can’t remember what they were called cause I forget now but I shall remember eventually.
HD: [unclear]
BP: Yes, that’s it,
HD: Yes.
BG: Going round with the chocolates and stuff, that’s it. So, she used to look after me at home and Mum had to go to work. She got sent to work at Fisons fertilizers, which was right near where the horseracing used to take place in Lincoln and when she was there, she was the manageress of the canteen, so she used to do the food and what not. While she was there, there was a group of foreigners, German and Italian mainly, in the care of two English soldiers that used to be brought into the café, well, canteen it was in those days, into the canteen for them to get a drink and there used to be coming with them, with a slice of bread with a bit of something on it, I don’t know what, a bit of not butter or anything like that on it and these foreigners used to have to sit in a separate part while they got a drink and ate this sandwich and then my mother was so sorry for them, and she said, oh, the poor devils, she says, so the man who was looking after them, the sergeant that was looking after them said, we’re at war with them, so my mum said, we might be, we, no need to starve them and she used to go and give them a bit of meat on the plate. And they all called her Mama, oh Mama, and you should have seen the most wonderful things they made for her, the Italian people made gorgeous things and gave them to her like, you know, ships in a bottle and stuff like that and she had them for ages.
HD: Right.
BP: Yeah.
HD: Do you know anything about these foreigners? Where did they, why were they there and?
BP: Well, I mean, where they’d actually come from I don’t know. They didn’t tell us anything, we weren’t told anything like that, you see. You did, they just were brought in and that was it, and what they were actually doing somewhere was something like, seemed farming, they were doing some farming or something or other under the help of the people that watching them, yeah. They were doing the farming. And Mum was there ages until after the end of the war. Yeah, there we go. I remember going in there when I was at school and it was school holidays and I went down to have my lunch there and all these Italians came in, you know, and [unclear] you’re that bad and [unclear].
HD: Oh, and they went in everyday, did they?
BP: They used to come in, yeah, they used to be brought in during the day, in the morning, just to have the sort of little drink of whatever and then a little bit of hard bread with next to nothing on it which my mother was really sorry for and added bits to it all the time, which they appreciated and gave her all the bits and bobs and called her Mama, yeah.
HD: Oh. Did she ever keep in touch with any [unclear]?
BP: No, because they all went back to where they came from, you see, yeah, so she didn’t keep in touch with any of them, no.
HD: Did your father ever meet any foreigners?
BP: Well, yeah, the foreigners that, well, no, he did, no, he didn’t meet the foreigners, no, because he was working all the time, you see. He was either, he was home in bed, catching up on his sleep or working, so he didn’t meet people, they didn’t take him into the factories cause they didn’t want him to know what was going in the factories, did they?
HD: No.
BP: So,
HD: And did you uhm during the war, did you see the planes going over or hear them?
BP: Oh yes, could you hear the planes going over, that was the thing. When the first alarm used to go off, you know, I can’t remember exactly [unclear], sort of a wailing thing like [mimics a wailing sound] you could actually get it if you [unclear], and then we’d say, oh heck, they’re here again and then if they were right over head it was [mimics a deep droning sound] like that, you know, big noise, really big noise, and of course there used to be people walking round all the time, to make sure that all the windows had been blocked up, we’d have all the windows blocked up with wood, completely, and there was always people walking round the streets, keeping their eye that there were nobody with the light on. And if anybody had got a light on, the, these people that were working that way, [unclear] put that bloody light out! Because of course you could see from above that where we were, so we had every window blocked off with wood, like wood things over the tops of the windows in every room and if you needed to go to the toilet which was outside, we used to have to just creep through till we could actually get there and funnily enough talking about toilets, on one Sunday, there was a daytime attack, and we were really worried cause we were right opposite Clarke’s Crank Works and they were trying to get to these places you see but I was in the toilet which was outside when the alarm went off, and it was the strong alarm and I flung myself down to the toilet floor [laughs],
HD: They were right above you.
BP: Because I couldn’t get in the house to get into the shelter, now all of us outside the houses had the shelters built, we all had shelters built in all the roads you know.
HD: Right, ok.
BP: Yeah.
HD: Was that in the garden or?
BP: No, no,
HD: Just in the road.
BP: In the roads by the council, they were all big brick, uhm, things that we went in where there was room for to sleep or whatever if you needed to,
HD: And so all the families went in, too?
BP: Oh yeah, yeah, they were in, all the streets, they had the big thing, especially when they were near somewhere where they knew there was likely to be danger, but we tried not to use the, them too much because we didn’t like them, yeah.
HD: What was it like in there?
BP: Well, it was fusty and it was, there was some room to sit and some room to lie down and some room to go for a wee and that sort of stuff but we tried not to go into it. The place we used to go into when the alarms went off was under the stairs, always under the stairs, in the cupboard under the stairs, that
HD: And you’d all fit in?
BP: We used to get in there, yeah. And the funny thing once, it was coming up to a Christmas and a friend of mums was getting a chicken ready for cooking and Mum and I were there when this alarm went off and they made you [mimics a droning sound] and we all had to dive into her cupboard under the stairs with the poor old chicken sitting on the table while it all cleared up and we could get through to get it sorted out, it was terrible, I remember that [unclear], been hid under that, yeah. And my dad and mum used to go and stand outside the garden and do, well, it was a backyard actually, to see when they could see the planes going over, and my dad always used to know whether they were right over Ruston’s or on the line and they never got there, you know, they never got to Ruston’s, because they got muddled up with the railway line.
HD: Yeah.
BP: But there was lots and lots of bombing, and there was one incident in particular which infuriated me. I was, I say, about elven at the time, cause I was up at South Park High School for girls at that time, and my sister Jess, who’d been at home when she’d got one little girl called Pat, that was my, one of my sisters a little girl, and her husband had gone to Grantham to work on some foundries at Grantham, so she came to stay with us. Well, there used to be an extra-large bum thing, it was an awful thing, there was a name to it and people would remember but I can’t remember the name of it but it used to come over with a terrible noise, really loud noise and it was, frightened people to death because if you could hear that above your head, you knew trouble was happening and what annoys me that particular day, my sister was sleeping in bed with me and her little girl and me dad ran up the stairs and took me sister’s little girl, left me upstairs to come down on me own so I was a bit annoyed about that. But as it went on this damn thing was going [makes a humming noise] over your head and as soon as it stopped, it had blown up and it had blown me dad’s garden up, right at the top of Canwick Hill, where all the thing is, right at the top,
HD: Yes
BP: Blew up there,
HD: And that was a German
BP: A huge, big, special, can’t remember what it was called but somebody will, but it was massive, it wasn’t a plane, it was been sort of brought in by no pilot, if you know what I mean,
HD: Right.
BP: Yeah, it was a bombing thing that I found out about and it used to come in and as long as it as making a noise, we knew we could here it, but if it stopped, oh my God, it’s gonna drop on us, you know, but fortunately it didn’t.
HD: Oh. So, there was a bomber up there at Canwick?
BP: Lots, lots of bombs, yeah. Going that way. They used to go all over the place but mostly they were trying, the ones with pilots in were trying to get the ones down here. The other ones, they didn’t care where they dropped them, they dropped it to frighten us, I think, more than anything.
HD: Yes, yes. How did you feel, as a child, growing up during this time?
BP: Well, uhm, how did I feel? Well, I used to listen to my dad and my mum talking about it a lot, you know, on the paper or on the radio as it was in those days. And they used to talk about places that had been bombed and this, that and I remember them talking about Coventry and when Coventry was completely destroyed and I do remember that and I do remember, I’ve been twice back to Coventry, since then, since I’ve been, you know, grown up, to see the actual alterations they’d done to it, but I said to my grandchildren when we went, don’t go into the actual cathedral, look at the old stuff that was left there originally and the, uhm, cross is there amongst the old stuff and I said, if you go and say a prayer, say it there, not inside, say it there, because it was totally destroyed. So, we knew from the newspapers what was happening and actually we were really very lucky cause we were, you know, having all these things being built but they never actually got to us, you see, they kept missing us and apparently when the airmen were going out and coming in from all the bombers around here, dozens of them, weren’t they and all over the place, uhm, they always used to look for the cathedral, as this is the place where we coming from and that is the place where we coming from. And then the thing that hurt me most of all of course was Bill, when Mum asking them round for the Sunday lunches you see, Mum and Dad used to go into the uhm, the pub on a Saturday night, it was, how the hell was it called? I talked to you a few minutes and I’ve forgotten it now, it was, what the hell the pub was called, it was next to the crossings, across Canwick Road, which then led up to the Broadgate [unclear] and I used to get taken there but shoved in the kitchen with a glass of lemonade, which I detested, sitting there with no television in those days, no radio, rats or cats and stuff running about while my mum and dad were in the actual pub itself sopping and drinking and going to and they fetched me in when the time had stopped for this closing so I used to get to actually see one or two people and this is where Mum and Dad had got to know Bill and the other lad, uhm, he was the other lad who came from, uhm, I told you, didn’t I? Where did I tell you he came from? He was a black lad, he came from, not Trinidad, I can’t remember, it’s in my book anyway.
HD: Jamaica?
BP: Jamaica. Jamaica, that was it, yeah. And Mum used to say, you poor lads, where are you stationed at? Now, they weren’t supposed to tell you where they were stationed at, you know? No, no, you, can’t tell you, and it was very convenient for him to come in on a Saturday night because in those days the bus stop was dead opposite the pub which, if you went further up, you’d get the railway, do you know where I mean, don’t you? And this pub was there and they used to go in there and Mum asked them if they’d like to come for Sunday lunch and twice they came for Sunday lunch. It was Bill, Bill Owen, the one that was the love of my life at that time, and the other lad who came in, was the fellow from Jamaica, Louie I think he was called, and they used to come and have Sunday lunch and they always went out the front door and I, not the back door, the front door, and I always used to go to the door to see them out, and this Bill, William George was his name, I found all that out later, William George Owen and he came from just outside London and I used to go out to the front door to say cheerio to him and I was thirteen by then gazing at him and he was eighteen and he used to say, when I’m back, I’ll come back and marry you, you know that? Which of course he never did and you got the poem, do you? And I can remember vividly the thing that really struck me most I think, anything I can ever think about, I knew about bombs and I knew about planes and I knew about being killed but somebody that I really cared about, you know, as much as that, at thirteen you see this gorgeous young man who we had no idea was at Skellingthorpe aerodrome, that’s where they were, and we didn’t know that they’d be going that night on a bombing thing you see and the Jamaican lad didn’t go because he’d got an kidney infection so he was lucky not to go off on that trip, somebody else went, Bill was the navigator and the one that actually got away, got dropped out, was the bomb aimer, he actually managed to get out, before the whole thing was blown up, and he was kept prisoner of war for the rest of the war. Now, I did have but I searched high and low and can’t find it, but my daughter thinks I took it up there when I went up there the first time, which was a letter from the one who did escape, telling them that he’d been a prisoner of war and where he’d been and what he’d been doing. Now, I thought,
HD: Can you remember his name?
BP: Uhm, no, I can’t.
HD: Because he was the bomb aimer.
BP: He was, he was the bomb aimer and he got out the front of it, yeah. But I can’t remember his name, no, you’d have to go back to find the Owens and that sort of thing to find who they were but they were at Skellingthorpe aerodrome and when I found out that what had happened and what not and as I grew older, and I got a boyfriend, and I always remember Bill to this day, I went and had a little plaque made for him which is in, still in Skellingthorpe, just inside Skellingthorpe, a little plaque in memory of him and I used to go and take flowers down there, uhm, even after I was married, you know, my husband realised that, you know, it was just what I was teenage [unclear] and so, that was, that was very, very sad, very sad. And there used to be a lot of famous songs in those days like Vera Lynn, you know, I’ll be seeing you, but you know I [unclear] this famous song that I used to love, it was, now let me think, I’m gonna tell you the name of it [unclear] because I’ve asked some friends of mine who live opposite who have got all the wartimes music cause he used to do it. I said, just lend me them sometimes, I can listen to them all again but I do listen to them now I get the opportunity and there was this particular song, I’ll be seeing you, it was called, I’ll be seeing you in all the old familiar places [singing] and that sort, I’ll be looking at the moon and I’ll be seeing you [singing], you know, one of those sort of things, and I used to be singing that all the time, you know, I mean, you know, the small café, park across the way, and I was virtually singing to Bill, you know, all the time. I went out to be fortune told, when I was much older, much older, and married and we went to see some old lady I can’t remember where it was and she was doing my reading, [unclear] laughing, thinking it was a joke, and she says to the, out of the blue, she said, by the way, I’m telling you, she said, I don’t know whether you know anything about this but, she said, there’s a young man in Air Force blue standing at the side of you. I said, oh my God! And I would be twenty odd then, I thought, my God, who’s that? She says, he’s there, he’s at the side of you. I found strange. Yeah,
HD: Yes.
BP: Very, very strange. So, anyway, that was that, so then, what happened then? We went on, oh, the day the war was over, that was a fantastic day.
HD: Yes, tell me about that.
BP: A fantastic day that was. When we realised the war was over, you know I told you we had all the shelters, the brick shelters, well, the young lads were teenage boys by now and me a teenage girl by then, I was fourteen by then, and that would be right, would it? What was the year the finished?
HD: 1945.
BP: 1945.
HD: Yes.
BP: I was born in ’31, yeah, I was thirteen,
HD: Yes, yeah.
BP: Yeah, so I was fourteen and I used to go round there and the lads used to grab the girls and take them in the shelters and kiss the girls and all that sort of thing and in Cooling Street, which was there but is no longer there, there used to be a place at the bottom where a fellow did a potato business and we often during the war, used to go into his potato sheds if the thing was going as well and I can’t remember the name of the man, I know he was a well-known bloke, but when they found out about it, everybody went mad, and all the windows in Cooling Street had got the windows right open and music coming out and people were dancing and all this you know and it was really exciting that was that we realised that it was over,
HD: [unclear]
BP: Yeah, it really was, you know, it was one of those really interesting times there, yeah
HD: So,
BP: My husband by the way, the war was still on while he was in the army, he was, uhm, part, no, he was not called up until quite late because he worked as a post office engineer and he was doing piles, you know, big things, and
HD: [unclear]
BP: [unclear] there and digging, so he got time, not called up straight away, but towards the end of the war, they did call him up then, and he had to go up and he was taken up to, because he was doing that kind of work, they wanted that kind of work, and he was taken to one of the most famous places where [laughs] they were all, they were all the soldiers, which I can’t remember the bloody name of, but there’s loads of them but he went to one, up North Yorkshire, and he was there a long time and he was in the Royal Signals, he became a member of the Royal Signals, and he was very lucky because they were deciding on this particular day that got rows of them out and the group next to him was sent abroad but my husband’s group were kept here and they were doing all sorts of stuff with listening to things coming in and messages and all sorts of stuff, and he was actually taken ill while he was there with some infection or other he’d got and he was taken down to the hospital down south, somewhere right down towards or really near the coast and he was in a hospital there for about five weeks. I’ve got a box full of letters that he’d sent to me all the time he was in the army.
HD: Really?
BP: Yeah.
HD: So, where did you meet your husband?
BP: I met him at the Drill Hall.
HD: Oh, the Drill Hall.
BP: Yeah, oh, this was interest as well, the Drill Hall in those days was the place where everybody went to and it was absolutely packed out and we had a fantastic band and it used to be full people that were, the soldiers if there were, it was the night off, and then off course the Americans came. So, of course all things changed when the Americans came and I do wish I could find this, I’ve been looking for this all over but I think my daughter’s got it, which I’m really mad about cause I’ve looked [unclear] churned it out but anyway I’ll tell you about it instead, so the Americans arrived and all the young girls decided they’d put Max Factor on and big lipsticks and all that kind of stuff, but I didn’t, I wasn’t that sort of person, I just didn’t bother, and I couldn’t mum let me wear earrings evening, no, if she knew I had any earrings I had to get a clout, no, you’re not having that, you can’t do that and don’t let me find you coming out of that Drill Hall with any of those Yanks and all this that, she used to play hell she did. So, anyway, we were at the Drill Hall, and that’s where I met my husband, I’ll tell you about [unclear] first, then I’ll tell you about the Americans. So, was up at the Drill Hall, with a crowd of friends, and there was a crowd of lads that I knew and they were a bit rough and tumble lads, they were too young to be called up, sixteen, seventeen ages, and we stopped, I stopped talking to him, I’m wearing a green dress I can remember that vividly, and I was talking to him a bit and he said, oh, hi, you got to talk to us for a bit, this four or five lads, I said, I’m not talking to you, rough lot, I said, I have come here to dance not talk to you lot. So this young lad called Benny, who now lives in Canada, and wanted my husband to go with him, that, now that’s another thing I’ll tell you in a minute about that, [unclear] tell you about the Drill Hall first, and I said, I’m not stopping with you lot, you can’t dance, I’m [unclear], so, this lad said, Benny said, [unclear] can dance, so, I looked at this young lad, seventeen year old lad, in a lovely black suit, dressed up, lovely black hair, that sort of lot to do and I said, what, can you dance? He said, well, do you want to go round then? Those were his words [laughs] excited, wasn’t it, charming. Do you want to go round though? [laughs], oh well, come on then. So, that’s when I started dancing, that’s when I first met him, you see, at the Drill Hall. And then, it was Christmas Eve, and I was fifteen, so, whichever year it was, you work that out, he was seventeen and we arranged to meet up the next day and which was Christmas Day and I lied to me mother and told me mother that the war was [unclear] of course that I was just gonna meet a friend from school, but I meant to meet him in the Arboretum in Lincoln for about an hour chatting at the Arboretum [laughs] and my mum never knew but anyway that was that and he didn’t say I’ll meet you again so therefore I thought, well, I’m not very interested in him and he’s not very interested in me but funnily enough the following night which was the night after we’d been on the Christmas now, we were at this group of lads house again, because the lady that used to come round delivering the milk, was a black lady, I don’t know where she was from but my mum really loved her, she was called Doris, and my mum used to ask her to come in every morning for a cup of tea when she was delivering the milk and she said to my mum, why don’t you let your Beryl come and see our lads? She wanted to get me with one of her boys you see. [unclear] I said, I’m not going there, and she says, oh, we are having a party on, she said, at Christmas, why don’t you come? I said, I’m not going, I’m [unclear] a bit too shy, I’m not going to be there, so she said, this was the night after I’ve met Set for the first time, so I went down to her house and she was the milkwoman and I knocked at the door, really shy, [unclear] and she says, oh, I’m ever so pleased you’ve come, Beryl, anyway I walked in and who’s sitting in there? There is these group of lads and this bloke that I’d met the night before and been in the Arboretum with and he was kissing a girl when I walked in so I was a bit, I’m not very happy about this [laughs], but that was where it sort of all started from, you know, from that. So, anyway, that was that and so, let me think of what else what we did. Course food was,
HD: I was going to say, the rations.
BP: Ah, now that, I can tell you a lot about rations,
HD: Yes, rationing.
BP: Now, clothes rationing, now, that was, if you got clothes, wanted to get some clothes, you were to sell your clothes rations, give it to those people who couldn’t afford to buy clothes, so my Mum, was a devil, she was, and she, Vera, my sister was married by then and the people who lived next door to her, they were really hard up, and my Mum used to go round there and buy from them all their clothes coupons and so we could get clothes because I was wanting clothes and South Park uniform and all that so mum did that, she used to do that regularly, and it used to go into the shops in those days, when you went in with your thing, they used to say to you, [unclear] to the counter [whispering] so they did that a lot as well, you see, they’d have a bit of [unclear] if you went there regularly and I remember when the first bananas came in, at the end of the war there, and we went round the market and I used to go on a Saturday morning, I was working for the civil service at that time, and it was a Saturday morning for me to go and get the shopping for me mum, and we went down to the market and the butchers and they used to say, do you want a banana [whispering], these was people behind the counter, you see, and if you’d been a [unclear], you got some bananas, which was, [unclear] used to give you some, you see, so we got bananas before most people did.
HD: Yeah. Did you ever go hungry? Did you ever feel hungry?
BP: No, we didn’t, because a) because my Dad had his garden, and he kept chickens, he, every type of vegetal that he could find, potatoes, the whole lot, you know, all that sort of stuff, meat I suppose was the thing which we were short of, it was always the thing that we were short of, and eggs used to be quite short of as well, and we had limited amount for, tickets for it but when my mum [unclear] working at the canteen, she used to be very naughty and come home at night with a plate full of stuff, you see, that hadn’t been eaten up during the day, so we, we didn’t go hungry at all.
HD: No.
BP: We were very lucky. Neither would we, did we go unclothed because she got, she got coupons, she used to buy the coupons and the woman that she bought the coupons from, because my mum was working, that particular woman, come and cleaned the house for me mum while I was at school and she was at the [unclear] at work and when me dad was at work fulltime which he was, it was daytime, cause he did shifts with me brother and I was off school if it’s a school holidays, and stuff like that, I used to do me dad’s dinner for him and that sort of stuff [laughs],
HD: Oh.
BP: You know, we used to have such fun and laugh about that, I loved my dad. And I remember that, you know, we all went to this big [unclear] as I’ve said to you at the end of the war, you know, I left, [unclear] much to talk about it, me dad to talk about it, I went to talk about it with all the girls and boys, you know, we were fifteen then and those were the days sort of thing. Fourteen and fifteen anyway, coming August, wasn’t it? When it was
HD: Oh yes
BP: When it came up so it was, not quite fifteen, I was fourteen, fifteen in October, yeah,
HD: Yeah, yeah.
BP: So, that was all interesting.
HD: Yeah.
BP: Yeah, was all interesting. Lovely music in those days like Vera Lynn and really sad music. Now, this is an idea for you, when they actually get this thing all organised, I think a real essential thing, this has come to my mind, while the people are looking round there and there’s gonna be a café and God knows what up there, for Heaven’s sake, we want wartime war Two, World War Two music, not anything of todays, we want World War Two, I think that’s essential, because if people didn’t know it, they’ll soon learn it and the songs were so wonderful in those days, I mean, I’ve got a great list as long as my arm, probably on the table there and on a bit of paper, but that’s what needs to be there, definitely, I think that’s absolutely essential, to be there.
HD: You were telling me about the Drill Hall and then you were telling me about the Americans.
BP: Oh God, yes, don’t cut cut, I forgot to tell you this.
HD: Yeah.
BP: This was, you don’t [unclear], not have anything to do with the Americans, I do wish I got this, I’ve looked all over for it, now I realise that [unclear] at my daughter’s house, I’m really peed off with that, so anyway, we were there, I was with Ses but I’ve fallen out with him, we used to fall out like hell actually but we did get back together, at the time we weren’t going out together and then we were going out together and then we weren’t. And his friend actually, Benny, wanted him to move to Canada with him, to go to Canada and Ses said, I don’t think I want to, and he stayed at home in England and Benny went to Canada and apparently they did a decision between them and this must have been just about coming up to the end of the war or whatever, it was a decision, was it gonna be Beryl or Canada and to my husband Ses it was Beryl, so I stayed here and he went to Canada and he still rings me from there, from Canada, when my husband died, he rang up, nearly [unclear] did die, and he got to know already from people in Lincoln. Anyway, talking about the Drill Hall, so the girls were all done up and done up and they came, all the Americans came in in their fantastic uniforms, and there were a few Polish people, soldiers there as well and we liked the Polish soldiers very much for staying on our side, weren’t they? And they were there and they had fairly rough uniforms but the Americans, [unclear], and big, big band and all that kind of thing and the jiving and of course before they came, the Americans, we were all doing swaltzes and what not, as soon as they came, it was the jiving you see, and the people who were sort of going round and seeing if everything was alright, stop that you two, you’re here to be dancing, not here to be jiving, stop that, but we all did and we took no notice of them. And there was an old chap who came every single week to the Drill Hall in his wheelchair just to watch us dancing and he really enjoyed it, he was a wonderful chap that chap, and anyway, on this particular night, I’d had a fall out with Ses for some reason, although that was quite regular, all our life I think [laughs], but anyway, uhm, this chap came up to talk to me, and he was just an ordinary chap in ordinary clothes, and he said, I don’t know why you picked me, to tell you the truth, but I still don’t know, but I know what I wore, I was in a red, bright red and white striped dress which was a very full one at the bottom and really posh at the top which suited me a lot because it fitted me, you know, my face and that, was quite good looking actually, and still am actually, I tell you [laughs], you wouldn’t think I said that would you? So, no, that’s what I keep telling them, but I am, anyway so, anyway, this chap came up and said, I’m doing [unclear] a bit of interest but [unclear] sending back to the States, I said, oh yeah? I said, what’s all that then? He said, well, he said, I want to let the people in the States know what’s happening with the Americans over here, you know, and he said, do you know much about them? I said, no, I don’t know much about them at all, I said, my mother won’t let me have anything to do with them at all, I said, I don’t like. So he said, uhm, oh, he says, well friends, I said, yeah, but I don’t know anything about them but I said, I can tell you one thing, he said, what? I said, five of my girlfriends have all got dates with them. These were the girls who were made up to the and five of them did marry them, did actually marry, moved off and married to them. And one of them, called Yvonne, who was really quiet, she got married and had five children in America, when she got over there, yes. We didn’t see any black Americans though at the Drill Hall, they were all white or probably a little bit but not much, I thought they were really good looking if they were black. As I was uptown once with me mother, going into a shop and this tall, handsome black bloke, I used to look at [unclear], good looking man, I thought, oh, he’s a real good looking man, sharp, he’s black and he’s American [unclear] so I had a look at him, shut up. Anyway, carrying back to the Drill Hall, so this chap was asking me about the Drill Hall and what we knew about the Americans and our with the Americans sitting in and this, that and the other and bits of information about the girls and that, I said, where’s this for, this for? I said, cause I’m not supposed to be here, I said, my mother don’t let me to the Americans, where the Americans are, so I said, I’m not supposed to be here, so he said, well, he’s not going to be here if they put this into the States, so I said, are you sure? He said, yeah, so he says, I wonder if you should do something for me, I said, what? He said, I want you to dance with that American young lad in that pretty frock you’ve got on, that red bright strap frock, so I said, are you sure he’s not going to America? I’m absolutely sure. So, anyway, this sergeant, American sergeant came, and there we are, dancing like hell, you know, going to and all the girls [unclear] had to pick her to do it, anyway [laughs], so that was that, so I thought, me mum won’t know anything about that, [unclear] I shan’t be in any trouble. So, the following weekend, after having been said it will not be published in England, I’ve got this, [unclear] trying to find it to show you cause it would be fantastic and anyway I thought nobody will know, so Mum went into the paper shop on a Saturday the following week, to pick up the papers, and [unclear] and I knew, someone had told me, oh my god, your picture’s in! I said, oh no, no, no, surely not, oh I’ll be killed, I’ll be killed, don’t, there it is, it is, I said, you’re telling it now, so it goes, my mum goes in the shop, not with me, thank God, he opens his mouth, he said, by God it’s a good picture your Beryl dancing with that Yank, in’t it? And my mother said, what the hell are you talking about? And [laughs], and there on the double page in this magazine is Beryl dancing [laughs].
HD: Were you in trouble?
BP: Yes [laughs], except I told her that they just asked me to do it for America, to send to America. So I said, oh, I nearly dropped dead when that chap told me it was in the, oh, I thought, my God, I’m gonna get kicked in the backside forevermore, but then she quite laughed at it, really, cause it was such a good photograph of me.
HD: So, forgave you.
BP: Yeah, she forgave me but she said, shouldn’t be doing that! You shouldn’t be, I told you not to, to keep away from them! And then one night the young man once, one of the Americans once asked if he could walk me home, so I thought, oh, this is going to be trouble as well, cause, you know, that’s no good, so I said, oh, I don’t think so really, cause I was always a bit worried, you know, about people, other than I got that feeling that the Americans were a bit forward sort of thing, but this lad was a nice lad, and I can’t remember his name, he was an American from Texas, I remember that, very well, from Texas, in fact that place where the fellow got shot, the American
HD: President,
BP: What was his name?
HD: John Kennedy.
BP: That’s it, yes, he was from the same town. Texas, somewhere there. Anyway, he said, can I walk you home? I said, yes but not all the way, don’t go right down in case my mother sees you [unclear]. So, I said, oh dear, don’t she like us? I said, not really. So, I said, he said, can I meet you tomorrow night then? Tomorrow during the day, to go to the cinema, I said, yes, alright, that’s alright. Anyway, when the day came, I must tell you about the bomb as well, I’m telling you forever, you will be here forever. Anyway when the day came, the, now what was she, my sister’s daughter, my niece, she used to be there all the time, I told you [unclear] her husband was working at Grantham, and I saw this American standing where he was supposed to meet me and I chickened out after that, I’m not going, [unclear] me mother knew that, so I said to Pat, this was the daughter, I said, can you go and tell that American that I’m not too well and I can’t come today? [laughs] So she did. Poor lad. And then, so that was another one with the Americans when I was, I daren’t have anything to do with the [unclear], anyway, I thought, I was stuck up, and cocks up, and you know, better uniform and who the hell are you kind of thing. And most of the girls that were done up to the eyebrows couldn’t get there quick enough, you know. but I’m telling you about, have you heard about those things that came and they just buzzed and as long as it was buzzing, it was alright and if it stopped buzzing, you were in real trouble. You know about that?
HD: Oh, right, ok then.
BP. There was this huge big thing and I don’t remember what it was called, somebody will know, and it was awful sound, it was [mimics and intermittent humming] and it made this terrible noise and it was a real killer that one was, and this is where me sister Jes and Pat, the one I’ve just been talking about, were sleeping in my bed cause her husband was working at Grantham doing thing and this was going over their head, our head and dad said, oh my God, it’s one of those, get, let’s get downstairs quick. So, he runs to get us downstairs quick but he did, he got me last, he picked me granddaughter and he left me last, I’ve told him that hundred of times when he was, you didn’t damn well take me. Anyway, when it cut off, it cut off exactly where that bomber place gonna be now, right at the top of Canwick Hill, that’s where it exploded, right on me Dad’s garden, and what not, right at the top, and he could hear it coming over. So it just missed us because we lived not very far from there, near Coltham Street, Cooling Street was only at the bottom of the hill really,
HD: Yes.
BP: So we had a bit of a lucky escape there.
HD: Yeah.
BP: But.
HD: So, we talked about when the war finished.
BP: Yeah.
HD: What happened after the war then? Did you all just get back to normal routine, as it was before or,
BP: Well,
HD: Were there many changes?
BP: I think it [coughs] depended. Depended whether they were injured or not, of course, that was one of the things, but they came, if they came back in one piece, most of them easily got jobs because women had bene doing all the work. You see, the women were working in all the factories and come back absolutely filthy, that sister of mine who met her husband in the factory there and so most of them got jobs but now, what year was it when the war ended?
HD: It was ’45.
BP: ’45, so I would have been sixteen then. I was working at that time at the post office, I was working for the telephone manager’s office [unclear] actually, that’s what I was doing, and I worked there a long time at the telephone manager’s office, and then I went into the office, the civil service I was doing, had to do an exam for that, which I did, and the school exams as well and I did the civil service exam and got into the civil service and as I worked in the telephone numbers, how much it cost people at Ruston’s and so to and then I had got moved into one that was for wages and stuff like that, which was much more interesting, and my husband who’d been in the army and had always been with the post office, he came back to the post office, but he worked with the, putting up new lamps and all that sort of stuff, and trying to get telephones in, there was desperately need for telephones in those days, and you couldn’t get one for love of the money and you had to put your name down for can you get me a phone or all that, I was dealing with a lot of that as well. We, and my husband at the same time was working for the post office, and this bit’s really funny actually, he was digging down somewhere near one of the poles and by per chance and by the fact that Ses has been able to do it for it, my mother had got a telephone and nobody anywhere near us had a telephone but she got one and a crafty you see, from somebody who worked there, and everybody used to come to our house to see if they could make use of the phone but Ses was working this particular night and doing something down there and he picked her phone call up on the line,
HD: [unclear]
BP: Part by accident, but then he was dafted off, the silly devil, to tell my mum that he’d heard her talking to a chap on the phone cause my dad was dead by then and I was furious she was going to report it or God knows what [laughs].
HD: So when did your father die?
BP: My dad, oh, my dad died, oh, let me think, he was only young actually, he was sixty two, so if I was born, if I was born in 1931, and he was, he was knocking on, won’t he? He was when my mother had me I would be thirty odd, so he must have been sixty, about sixty two I think, and what happened there was, it was very sad actually that I knew there was something wrong with me dad and the people at work in the foundries knew it was, something was wrong, he didn’t seem to look well and he was all sitting down and he was always, you know, wanting a drink and stuff. And I used to go up to the garden with him and he came in from work [unclear], he looked awful and I was married by then but I was and I had a house near me mum and I’d come up to see her and no children by then, we didn’t have any children for a long time after we’d got married but I came what’s wrong with me Dad? So she, I said, he’s got to go to the doctors, so he went to the doctors, for the first time, he should’ve been going for donkeys years, and he’d been diagnosed with sugar diabetes, and he looked awful that night, when he came back on the Friday in the chair and he was sitting there and my mum said, I’m gonna give you a couple of scones with a bit of sugar, I said, you’re not, Mum, no, no, you’re not. Where have you been? I said, he’s got sugar diabetes. You are not giving him that, I said, that’s no good to him. Anyway, the next day, they fetched him up, took him up to the hospital, no, on a Sunday they took him up to the hospital, on a Saturday, as I lived in the same street, I went up to look after him and he was in bed, oh God, he was ill. He couldn’t even get out of bed to pee, so my mother won’t have anything to do with it. She was a bully woman, my mother, bloody awkward woman really but knew what she was doing when she was awkward, and my dad wanted to pee and she won’t, oh I’m not, I said, keep out of the way, so I went in, I said to me dad, stay where you are Dad, I’ll get the pot, get your bits in here, I said, I’ll look after you. And I said, to me mum when I came down, and I said, this is serious, me dad needs to be at the hospital. So we got him up to the hospital on the Saturday. The next morning, we got a message from the hospital, can you come up, he is very ill. And I was still living in the same street as them, with me husband, and I rushed up to tell me mum told me with her phone, the only one we’ve got that somebody had sent a message that can you come down, you’re needed up to go up to the hospital. So I went down to me mother’s and I said, just going to have a quick look in the Bible, Mum, and she said, look in there, look in there, and this is Goodness truth, and I opened it and the first things that went between the eye, it said, and they buried him. And I said to me mother, there’s no point in going, me dad’s dying and she said, don’t be ridiculous, she made me go up there with him but by the time we got there he was dead. Just like that. And the Bible told me. Yeah, we have buried him. I can remember that to this day that was awful, yeah, terrible. I could shed a tear there, surprised I don’t shed a lot more actually, me poor old dad, yeah. My mother, she was a funny old bugger, she would, she liked all the fellows and she had lots of fellows after me dad died but I didn’t, I didn’t want anything more to do with them. But, yeah. So,
HD: You’ve had a lot of experiences
BP: Oh my God, I could [unclear], yeah. Was at hospital from being first at five at school, and not coming out till I was seven, with callipers on all the time and I’ve got loads of photographs of those upstairs and tonnes of photographs of the whole family I’ve got, that I found the family history actually, yeah, on that table there and my book are [unclear] there as well and lot of interesting stuff in that as well as a matter of fact but some of it has been sort of cut back a little bit but a lot of it is interesting and you know, it was, yeah, it was very hard going really and before when I was a child, as I grew old, as I got caught in and me mother used to be standing at the end of the passageway, come on, who are you with [unclear], it was always the same bloke, it was always the same that I came home with, and he played table tennis, he was a table tennis fanatic, and so I used to, during the week nights, he was always playing table tennis at this club and I used to meet him afterwards, when he left there, and funnily enough, when he died, which was about eighteen months ago now, when we had him in his coffin, I said, I want him to look good, cause he had cancer and we knew he’s got cancer and we knew it was coming and we got him in for the last four days, had his life here, but on a ward bed and all that, and I was singing songs to him, I can remember that as well, [unclear] bit of another tear now, anyway this particular night, I was on the stairs, this has nothing to do with the war really but it’s life, isn’t it? But I was at the stairs and the Marie Curie people were here and she shouted, I think you’d better come down. Anyway, I came downstairs and as I came down on the last breath, that [unclear] it up but I was telling about putting him in his clothes in his coffin, they said, do you want to [unclear] him? I said, yes. What’s he gonna wear? I said, I’ll sort that out. And my daughter wouldn’t have anything to do with it, she was terrified and she was terrible when her dad died, I think it always is when your dad goes. Anyway, so I said, he’s wearing his table tennis shirt, his table tennis jacket, his shorts, his plimsoles, I said and here he’s having his bat and ball so she said to me, at the [unclear], shall I remove that bat and ball before he goes? I said, no, he’s gonna play up there when he gets up there cause my young son [unclear], he was in that road accident when he was sixteen and died when he was eighteen, so he was up there, I said, Matthew was up there waiting for, to come for a game of tennis [laughs]. Yeah, oh dear. What a life.
HD: Oh. Well, thank you so much for sharing all these memories.
BP: Oh, I can tell you hundreds.
HD: Very, very kind of you and it’s fascinating.
BP: I’ve got loads more poems, you know.
HD: Oh, have you?
BP: Yeah, I could show you one or two? Do you want a look?
HD: That would be lovely. I’m just going to terminate the interview now.
BP: Yes, no problem.
HD: At 12.45. Thank you Beryl, thank you very, very much.
BP: That’s ok.
HD: Thank you.
BP: I, don’t forget I want the music of the war
HD: Yes.
BP: If anyone puts the other on, I’ll play it [unclear].
HD: Yeah [laughs].
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Beryl Pickwell
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Helen Durham
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-03-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APickwellBW170317
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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01:19:10 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Beryl Pickwell lived in Lincoln during the war. The youngest in a family with three brothers and two sisters, she remembers the day war was declared. Her father and two brothers worked in war factories, Clarke’s Crank and Ruston and Hornsby. She fractured her thigh when she was five, on the first day of school and spent two years in hospital. Remembers the first time she saw a gas mask, which she had carry along with her to school. Vividly describes the sound of the siren and Anderson air raid shelters at schools. Tells of a schoolgirl being killed during an air raid, when a bomb dropped on her house and hearing the terrible news when he was at school the following day. She explains how the air raids were targeting the railway lines but hit the factories instead. Remembers when a cinema, near St Swithin’s church, was hit by bombs. Tells of clothes bartering and food rationing, although she did never fall too short of food. She enjoyed spending her time at the Drill Hall, unbeknown to her mother, and she ended up dancing with American soldiers and a picture of her was taken and appeared in a magazine. Tells of when her parents used to bring servicemen home from the pub for the Sunday lunch and how she fell madly in love with one of them. Her mother used to work at the canteen of Fisons fertiliser company and gave some food to German and Italian prisoners of war. Tells of a huge, unknown aircraft making a lot of noise and exploding on top of Canwick Hill.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
shelter
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Title
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Hanks, John
J Hanks
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Hanks (b.1922, 1453357 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer and was posted to the Shetlands.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hanks, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive. The interviewer is Ian Boole and the interviewee is Mr John Hanks. Thank you for telling your story today John. Also present is Rita May, Mr Hanks’ daughter. And the interview is taking place at Mr. Hanks’s home in Potterhanworth in Lincoln on the 22nd of June 2016, at approximately 2.20 pm. Over to you, John.
JH: Yeah. Well, I can also answer any questions you like to ask me. Be the best way. Or do you want me to go through the whole?
IB: If you’d like to start with you preservice and your early days.
JH: Yeah, what before this.
IB: before the war.
JH: Well just, yeah, my father, biological father is not here now, he served in the First World War in India. I was born in 1922, poor family obviously and grew up in Battersea, London, left school at fourteen, ordinary elementary school, went to work, 1936 I started work, I was fourteen then and time presses on, 1937 comes round, ‘38 and the signs of war, Mr, what’s his name, went across with a piece of paper?
IB: Chamberlain.
JH: Chamberlain, Mr Chamberlain comes up with a bit of paper, peace in our time, [unclear] when you think about it, we weren’t ready, so 1938 passes, breathe a sigh of relief, thank God for that, no war but 1939, what happens? It happens, Hitler walks into Czechoslovakia we start war, so [unclear] onwards I’m still living in Battersea, London, my mates join the LDV, which became the Home Guard, we guarded bridges, Battersea bridges, things like that and then we had the Blitz start, but I lived through the whole of the Blitz, from beginning to the very end, night after night after night, it’s unbelievable, youngsters said, I can’t imagine what it would be like to live and try to sleep under noise of aircraft, guns and bombs coming down, unbelievable, I can hardly believe it myself today now but we survived. 1941 I decide I’ve got to go up, I’m gonna be called up anyway and I want to go into the Royal Air Force, I like mechanical, I liked things like that so I joined the Royal Air Force, go down to Croydon, there are offices there to join up, asked a few questions, no, I‘m not very good at maths, and when the officer asked me how often, add a half and a third together, I just [unclear] together [unclear] so he said to me, well, he said, I’ll put you down for ACAGD but I didn’t know what it was, aircraft and general duty so that’s it and waited to get called up, sent to [unclear], sent down to Penrhos in South Wales, got down there, kitted out, you know, [unclear] then sent over to Weston-super-Mare and that’s where we started the basic training, marching up and down, sleuthing to the front and the right and all this, anyway, put on guard at the, you know, new pier down there, given a rifle, no ammunition, no, might have hurt somebody [laughs] but we got a rifle anyway and we put down there we were told, you know [unclear] anybody, it goes there and that you know, anyway and from there passed out the end of the training, sent up to Edinburgh, which was [unclear] at the time, I forget what squadron was there, I think it was, I’m not sure, a fighter squadrons up there because the Germans were coming in sometimes up the, you know, the, I forget the river now, what’s the river, where Edinburgh runs, I forget the river now, anyway, they would come up there and attack, you know, go back and I’m put on, looking after the air crew, cause some of the air crew, French pilots learning to take off and landing on aircraft carriers, you know, and on air the best [unclear] in case is a crash and the pilots burning so it [unclear] and it worries me and I’ll tell this I was and I don’t think I gotta tell you and [unclear] and so he says, oh, so [unclear] to get me posted so I get posted up to Shetland islands where I am up at Sullom Voe on PBY Catalinas which is American aircraft and that’s where we, you know, doing their work from there, and I get interested in armoury so I’m put in the armoury section, helping armourers doing fiddly jobs and interesting, so I decide I’ll remuster, see if I can remuster to armourer I [unclear] for, you know, remustering, I’m accepted and I sit down to create a new letter for on an armourer’s course and there I was down there knowing all about every armour under the sun, weapons, all kind of weapons, hydraulics, turrets, the lot, I passed out as AC1 so I’ve covered AC2 now to AC1, that’s not bad, and I was posted to Swinderby in Lincoln here with 1660, HBCU which is heavy Bomber Command unit, so I’m posted there, what we’re doing there, we are training crews in [unclear] to work in Lancasters or Halifaxes so if we got Halifaxes there and we got, so when I get there we got Halifaxes, we only got the Lancasters so on there armourer I’m shown me jobs, another armourer tells me what I have to do each day so I learn that, so every day I will have to go out in the morning to make aircraft dedicated to me and I will have to check every armour, that’s the ammunition, the 303 Brownings, the turret system, the hydraulics, the power technics, everything, any can [unclear], the carrier, the bomb carriers, the lot, so I have to do that every day and then I’d have to sign form seven hundred, I will sign a form seven hundred in my trade, all the other trades are, you know, you will be a mechanic, you would have to sign, electrician they also signed it, the last one to sign would be the captain the aircraft, he is satisfied, he signed it, now that aircraft is fit to fly, that’s the last what I would do and that would be, and that would have left us there to the next job, next aircraft or in between flights inspection just to check everything is going ok and that’s what I would have to do as an armourer and then of course, I think, after being there for a while, they sent me down to Waddington here and I got a feeling, they at the beginning of the war, they were trying to, they were using armourers as air gunners because you had no better gunner than an armourer who knew all about, if a [unclear] dropped a gun, you knew how to clear it, an ordinary gunner who wasn’t an armourer might be, what I do now? So I think it was trying to do the same with me, when we went to Waddington, they would put us on a, into a sort of an imitation turret where you would fire at imitation aircraft flying but that’s all that and there and it came up when I was sent to East Kirkby, where I was attached to 57 and 630 Squadron and there we were bombing up, you know, proper because Swinderby, the only bombing I have done at Swinderby was putting practice bombs up, dynamite bombing would be a bomb which would just be smoked when it came up, if you were bombing at night, it would be a flash bomb, a flash grenade and eight pounders it was all putting up but when we went to, when I went to East Kirkby, we was bombing up for real, we was bombing up on the cookies, that’s the four thousand pounder, o might be an eight thousand pounder and I haven’t put up a twelve thousand pounder, I think I put up an eight thousand pounder but I most certainly put up plenty of four thousand pounders, they called them cookie, and of course you put a cookie up and you put rows of five hundred or two fifty pound bombs except at one day we was putting up a cookie and canisters of incendiaries [unclear] and the incendiaries is a big can, inside the can is about, I think about fourteen incendiaries, they all fit in place, they are octagonal put together but each one keeps the [unclear] out, you in and then there’s a cross by that comes across now when they drop them, the bomb aimer selects the drop bars, the drop bars fall away and all the incendiaries come out, when they go out, they’re alive and I’m up in front position and I, we put these canisters up and I’m up at the very top so I’ve got to come all down to the bomb armourer below, ok, is on? Wind it up, very slowly up cause the can of incendiaries to top position, now it’s clear so I released but the thing was the cable wasn’t in and all canisters went straight away down, right across the bomb trolley and bent it all up but not one drop bar fell out so luckily saved the situation [laughs] but I sweat a bit [laughs] but that’s about the only incident I can ever remember that happened to me. It’s, we use to have a bit of a fun when we used to have to, when we bombed up it seemed to be, the bombs would come up, fill up with petrol or whatever, the bomb, we would come out, bomber, I guarantee you every time we finished, change loads, change loads and he comes down, petrol [unclear] comes up, for several reasons I can understand is the enemy couldn’t work out the distance when we were going or the amount of fuel it was carrying, if the, you know, found out, he was put in so many gallons of fuel in, it would give some idea of where that plane, they would gonna go. And I think that was the idea, why they changed loads the last minute to, you know, and that’s what we but coming back to Swinderby we were there, they were training, training crew, they were trained in take-off and landing so circuits and bumps we called them, diversions, now the diversions as far as I know, HBCU, 166 HBCU would form up with other HBCU [unclear], 54 and they would form up in a big [unclear] of aircraft and they would take-off and away, the point was the enemy would get the guess, they’re gonna make a raid over there but they won’t, they might as well go over there, so we were diverted, it was diversion so once again, the enemy was getting [unclear] and that’s part of the job of 1660, so that’s about all as much I can tell you of 1660 anyway [laughs] but is there anything else, you know, can I tell you?
IB: How was your relationship with the aircrew, you come in contact with them [unclear]?
JH: Yeah, very, well, sometimes I’d have to go out there and I want, I can’t check the turrets cause hydraulic system, I can’t check the turrets without the engines running, the engines are gonna work to get the pumps pushing the fuel for you through, you know, so the hydraulics worked, then once I run the engines, certain engines for the front or rear or mid upper, run the engines up and get in, and check them, make sure the guns were elevate and depressed and the turret would go around cause we are using a Frazer-Nash turret, it was the best turret I’ve ever come across, two grips like this, you go like that and when you are on the turret, [unclear] you know, it was a very good turret, but all oil, oil you know, and that was the best, the other turret I worked on was the in the Halifax, I forget the name of it but it had a central control like this and it wasn’t very good, you know, wasn’t so good as, you know, it was so easy and but yes alright, I get the aircrew to run the engine, they were all good lads, we were all lads together, you know, there was no quibbling, I mean, I’ve been down in Lincoln and one of the officers sitting in the bus, pat me on the back, oh God, he said, now the drink we get in town, it was just like that, you know, and I’m a young lad, he’s an officer and he’s talking to me, I’m so [unclear] [laughs] but yeah, the comradeship, that was [unclear] about the services and the army the same I suppose, but in the Royal Air Force the comradeship was unbelievable, I mean, I went down to Metheringham in, I think it was number 9 Squadron, used to be down, I’m not sure now and al goes in it and the curator in this museum he’s in it and he says, you know, this be about, he showed this bit about a DVD about armourer, you know, yeah, I’m talking to him so, you know, as I said, you know, what rank were you? Oh yeah, I thought, he would say, you know, I was sergeant, flight sergeant, oh, he says, I was group captain, I said, you know what? I said, it’s the first time in my life without standing attention to salute you, of course, he says, sir [laughs] I said, I was in the [unclear], he said, you do a good job, he said, it was stranger when he said that, you know, and he said, group captain, [unclear] [laughs], you know yourself, ay? Group captain, oh dear, oh dear, that’s what I liked about the Christmas time, during New Years’ time down at Swinderby, in the Christmas time all yerks, we all sit down and the officers are coming round, I suppose you know it, and they serve you and you know, and he’s great, you can chat but you know it’s still officers and I remember on New Year’s Eve, be [unclear] on the naffy, we were all in there and the CO comes in as well and the adjutant and all you know, all the big nobs, they are all joining hands, you know, the Auld Lang Syne, is good fun, yeah, is all, great it was, anyway so we all go back to the bed that night, yeah, so we are getting in bed and while we are in bed, we are asleep, and the signal starts, action stations parachute, action stations parachute, bloody hell, out of bed! We had to get out of bed quick, dressed, downstairs, grab a rifle, get outside, on parade, get in the truck, taken out to the airfield, they take us out the airfield, good God, got standing, gotta guard the aircraft I’m standing there, get captured by the army, it’s a trial, the army come in they captured us [laughs] but it was just to show you right if it was, you know, but the army took part in it and it was good though but at the time you didn’t know when you heard this tannoy system going action stations parachute, oh dear, oh dear, [unclear] but oh yeah, lovely, we’ll [unclear]
IB: When you arming the aircraft, what sort of conditions were you working under, as regards thinks the weather conditions and the time that you had to turn round [unclear] to get [unclear] and back?
JH: Well, you see, I spent a lot of time at Swinderby, which was a training centre really for aircrew, so, it wasn’t as operational, so we, we weren’t supposed tied down so much, I mean, if the gunner ops is got to be, they happened really time, no doubt, [unclear] go out every morning doing a DI and every tradesman go and do their part of the job, it sometimes it was a job to get the aircrew to run the engines for you, it was just one of those things but if the weather is bad, course you still had to do it, I mean, I had to go in aircraft and it’s really freezing cold and snowing and you had to get onto the tail end of the aircraft because the RSJ on the rear turret has got a leak, I had to go out and check it, of course that’s not my job so I report it to the fitters, you know, so the fitters come and do their job but you know, you still have to go out and do your job not matter what the weather was like, you know, even [unclear], you know, it just had to be done, clear, might have to go out and clear the [unclear], clear the snow off them another thing, get snowed up you gotta clear the snow off cause, I mean, even flying at night just the same, you were still training at night, day or night, flying, I mean, some of the nights I will be awake all night flying duties, I‘ll have to go out at six and go out there, wait there, wait till the aircraft took off, then I could lay down fall and get some sleep till they come back or come back for a leak or something, you know, which we had to go out and check and let’s see, I all day, the aircrew, luckily night flying duties I’d go to the mess and get a good supper you know normally you wouldn’t laugh but I mean when we had an ordinary and supper at the mess I mean you wouldn’t get eggs and things like that but if it is a night flying duty the crew, they would get eggs, we get them as well, yeah, luckily. Weren’t supposed to be, go them, anyway. What else got there then?
IB: We talked a little bit earlier of how your thoughts and feelings about the fact that you were loading bombs onto an airplane so that it could potentially go and kill people
JH: Yeah.
IB: What were your thoughts and feelings about that at the time?
JH: At the time, I thought it was a good thing, I thought, well, we are doing a good job here, you know, East Kirkby, we are putting the bombs up, they are gonna go out, get killed, thousands of Germans, good, [unclear] dead Germans, good, I can’t feel that way now, I just can’t, if I people that see Germany now, same age as me, in the war just the same, [unclear] and we are all good friends, you know, and that’s how it should have been, how it should be, as I said, I went to the museum for the Holocaust, yeah, I’ve been to Norwich, Norfolk, no sorry it’s, Nottinghamshire, I went there talking to the chap who was lecturing that, I said, people don’t seem to remember that we were fighting the Nazis, not fighting the German people, we weren’t fighting the German people although that’s what he was, it was getting over to so when I was young during the war I we are fighting the German people but we weren’t, we were fighting the Nazi regime not the people and that’s, that is what I feel now but then it was good, I think, we’re killing them, let’s kill some more, kill them all, is nothing bad like the dead Germans yeah, so, you know, to look at life like that, but I was nineteen, twenty then but I’m ninety four now, I can’t feel that way, you know, as I say, you to think that I put a bomb up to think now that bomb I put up there young children, babies maybe, completely innocent, I’ve helped to kill them, I’ve helped, not killed, I’ve helped to do it, the aircrew not their fault, not even the aircrew, they were ordered to do it, they’ve got to do it, they’ve got no choice about it, I’ve got no choice about it, it’s the war, I’ve been told I’ve got to do it this thing, you see, during the war years when you was in the service, I was in the Royal Air Force, yeah, and the army, navy, your life is not yours anymore, it belongs to the, the country that you live in, it’s your life belongs to them now, not you, you’re just a tool, you’re absolute tool, someone pulling the strings, [unclear] I’m told, that’s terrible, four years terrible, God, go ley, [unclear] I don’t know,
IB: At the end of your time in the RAF, were you demobbed at the end of the war, you stayed [unclear]?
JH: No, no, I didn’t want to stay, no, I actually I was sent to Birmingham after I was, you know, that’s it, don’t want armourers no more so I sent down to [unclear] in London they sent me back up to Birmingham, when I get there I’m told, go to the police and I, [unclear] and I went to the police so I went to the police, can you see, yeah, ok.
US: He’s coming.
JH: Yeah, I went to the police and of course
[tape stopped]
JH: My demobbed number was number 42 and I was up at Birmingham at the time and as a recruiting officer, I wasn’t officer but that’s why they called a recruiting officer, you know, the people want to come in and join the Royal Air Force I would interview them, ask them questions, if they failed, turned down the army, and you picked the best Royal Air Force you sent them in to see the officer and why, my number’s coming up next, I’ll be out, when the DROs come up next month be deferred, put back and I was dying to get out and I went in the office and I told him, I feel like deserting, he said, get me victory House in London, get me, he did mention a name at [unclear], I said I wasn’t quite sure of that so I had to ring up Victory House, you got to find Victory House, they called me back in the office, get your kit packed tonight, he said, I got you posted down to [unclear] so I got posted to Hall line Acton where I was, you know, recruiting now, it was great, was [unclear] every night lovely so it was like being home but I finally got demobbed from there but then, can I go to bed Rita? But it was there, when I was at Swinderby and used to come down to Lincoln, we got into the castle, look at the old Victorian prison they opened, we would go in there, so me and my mate goes in there, there’s two girls in there, we chat [unclear] very young men, naturally, talked to them and this girl spoke to them, her name is Rita so I went [unclear] took me to her so can I see you again? She says, yeah, so we arranged to see her again and what I should do when I was back in camp, I’ll bring her up cause she can I speak to Ms. Rita Chapman, please? Yeah, so she put me through, she come on phone and I am off duty, can I come down and see you? Yeah, come then, so go down there and we used to come down and we had a good friendship, it was platonic, it was a true, honest friendship, nothing more and nothing less and we used to go out cycling in the country [unclear] we enjoyed that companionship and eventually I got posted away so back down to [unclear] from there I got demobbed and when I was, I [unclear] uniform so I took it out, put this photo in a letter, wrote on it to this girl Rita Chapman, put the letter, this is my photograph and I want you to look after it for me, so I posted it to her, war’s over, I’m out. Fifty seven years later, I might be, my daughter’s mother died, Gladys she died, and we used to go out and [unclear] and I come up once for me and I went down to the Brayford Pool in a pub, William the Fourth, and talked to the lady who was chef here, she was clearing when I was outside, I said, you’re wasted, you’re alright, I said, used to be with the Royal Air Force during and told about this young girl I met Rita Chapman, she said, what a lovely story, she said, why not tell it to the Lincolnshire Echo and read it, she said, promise you, I promise so I went over there, I saw this report apparently he is well known, [unclear] and I forget his name now, his real name, name Pete something, and I went to see him, I said, I don’t know why and that’s it so that weekend I go back home and on a Monday on that weekend when I get back home, the phone rings, I picked the phone up, so a voice said, is that Mr. Hanks? I said, yes, speaking. So she said, this is Rita and I know it wasn’t my daughter Rita, is there any other Rita I knew? And it was this Rita Chapman and we met then after that, I came up here and we were married in 2010, won’t we? We got married. And I’ve been here ever since but I lost her unfortunately in ’13, bloody cancer again, but we had ten, eleven years, wonderful, and you see, my daughter’s name when I got back home we had a son, my son was born in 1947 and he was named Raymond, his photo’s up there now, he’s dead now, anyway and we had a girl, and my wife said, what shall we name her, baby girl? So I thought, I said, name her Rita and I say, let’s call her Rita, don’t ask me why and I said the reason I gave her the name is I didn’t know of anybody else so honest and true and trustworthy as this girl Rita Chapman because there nothing ever went wrong between us, nothing, she was a good companion and I must admit she was a good companion to me cause when you’re living with blokes all the time it’s nice to speak to a female and that’s how I named my daughter Rita, that’s how she got her name when she rang up she says it’s Rita [unclear] and that’s the part, you know, great but you know I thought she did listen and she said, cause everywhere we went, Rita would tell everybody, I think Rita in fact she was on the TV, they took us down to the studio, I forget where it is now, it was on the news, and they interviewed us down on the TV so Lincoln, all Lincoln knows about, I think so, must do, she tells, everybody she met, she would tell her this story about how we met no matter who it was she’d tell, now I’m telling you, she would have told you right [laughs].
IB: Tells us a little bit about your life after demob, and how they treated you and how you [unclear] about it?
JH: I was demobbed, at the time I was pleased to get out, I was pleased to get out, naturally. I went back to work in me old job, I was a metal polisher, and I was polishing for chrome plating, you know anything to do with chrome plating, if it was a bumper bar for a car or car handles, anything that was chrome plated, we were polishing the metal ready for plating and I for quite a number of years dropped and changed but in them days I could pack up me job and say to the manager, I’m going at twelve o’clock, it’s elven o’clock, hour, one hour, [unclear] walked down the road, go and get another job, not like it’s today, I mean, I ‘ve been in and out jobs, packing up here, go down the road, go in there, go somewhere else, all the time, all the time, [unclear] I mean, once I was working away, I just come back and it was the worst ever, you come back, you gotta go to work, and this chap, [unclear] at me, he said, oh, you’ll have to work till half past seven tonight, so I’m not, said, you’re after, I’m not, so I’m packing up, that was it, so I packed up, I wouldn’t gonna work, I was, I must admit, I wasn’t workaholic, I worked till six o’clock, that’s it, I finished, I’d do no more, enough, so anybody says me you work, you know, I’m not, you don’t tell me how I’m gonna work, I tell you when I’m gonna work, so that’s it, I worked till six o’clock and I finished, go home then, that’s alright, I’ve always been, and of course later on in the years, me and my mate we joined together, we made a little company of our own, we were self-employed and we were known as T&H metal polishers in London and we’d done quite well, we done good work and we done very well, earning good money, no problem at all, never had any problems, until time came to retire I said, I’ve had enough so I pack and I gave it up, I could have gone on big business, but I wasn’t workaholic, I’m afraid not, our life is more important than money, you know, you got to have money to live earn enough but that’s it, then enjoy yourself, enjoy life, not there forever, but I think life treated me pretty well, actually I mean, I’ve been quite satisfied by my life, I mean, I did have cancer in the bowels, bowel cancer once but it was in the colon so I was did chop it out and that was it but I mean , I was lucky [unclear] I’ve met, I felt I’ve been lucky all me life, I can’t think of any bad luck, only, sometimes things are going wrong, then they go right, no stay wrong, gone right, I fell as if I’ve been very, very, very lucky, I went through the whole war and never even cut me finger, so I mean, look at some of the things that some people have to go through, illnesses, you know, or [unclear] or trouble galore. But never, I can’t grable, satisfies with me life, don’t ask for any more, health, happiness, nothing more, nothing less.
IB: What do you feel is now about your service days and?
JH: Looking back over the years of me service days, I enjoyed me service days not the reason for me service days, the war, not that but being in service, I, the service days were enjoyable, comradeship, friendship, you know, you couldn’t ask for more, you live in a barrack room full of fellows, you don’t argue, you know, you talk to each other, you know, you grab in the naffy your cup of tea, buy a beer or go out with them and, you know, you just, that was a part, that was a good part about, I enjoyed that part very much, that was the sad part when you had to leave it behind, really, it was only after I got out, that I began to feel sorry, I was dying to get out but then when the time came, I came out [unclear] I could have gone, could have stayed on obviously but I didn’t want to stay on, they were offering it to you, you could stay on to give you so much money, I forget what it was now, but I didn’t want to stay on but then after I got back, you know, got back into reality, you are working for a living, and you had to work hard, all my life as a polisher, I’ve always been, you got a price for a job, you got a job, you gotta polish it, you get payed for the price that job, you gotta use, you know, your brain, you gotta find the quickest way to do the job, and do it the right way, quality, it’s quality first, obviously, but you gotta give them the quality and you gotta give it to them as quick as you possibly can, the quicker you do it, the more money you can earn. So that was peaceful, I’ve done it all my life peaceful and that was tight, sometimes you get a job for polishing and it was tricky, very tricky and some of the jobs could have been dangerous, trying to polish it where you could get caught up in the tool and you cut your fingers off or God knows what, you know, that sometimes could be a bit dodgy, sometimes you get a job really easy when I first went back to it after the war, I went down, back to me old job, and we was doing [unclear] lighters at the time, and we was in them days when I was gonna back to work and I’d [unclear] the RAF and said to the people in the recruiting centre, I earned eight pound a week, eight pound, they laughed at me, eight pound a week cause in them days I a lot of money, I did a lot of money, but when I started work back on Ronson lighters twenty one pound a week for a while but then of course Ronson decided, you know, I’m not gonna pay this much money so my governors said, we not gonna pay that money to get the [unclear] down and so me and me mates said, right that’s it, we’re gonna go on strike, so we did, we didn’t go to work, what happened? We got sacked [laughs]. Got sacked, but there you are, there it goes, I mean, we should have said, well, yeah, I mean, if a good wage was eight pounds a week, to earn twenty one is a bad [laughs] yeah I excepted it but we didn’t wanna except that so he said, right, you’re out, that was it, out, and then, in them days they could do that, you know, they wanted to sack you, they could sack you, they can’t now, can’t they? Isn’t it? Some good jobs. [file missing]
IB: Ok.
JH: When do we start off again?
IB: Any thoughts about the things that you saw, any experience that has left? Lasting impression?
JH: Yes, Swinderby, I forget how many crashes I saw there actually but there was one I remember that came down just off the airfield in front of a cottage and I had to go out there after the rest of the had cleared the stuff away to get and check on the armour equipment that need to come out and inside the aircraft, what were the remains of the aircraft, there seemed to be the scalp of the pilot hanging on the control column, you know, his scalp and shoes on the ground that had come off the aircrew’s feet obviously so they must have taken the bodies away and left the bits and pieces, I checked things out that you know and [unclear] alright to do except I had to go to the burial of at least one of the crew, I’m not sure, but I had to go to a burial at a church at and, I forget where it is now, just outside of Swinderby, Bassingham or Disney, I’m not sure, there’s a church there, and I’ve the escort, part of the escort the coffin in for burial in the ground, it’s still up there and very often I go up there and I do walk up and down and pay my respects, you know, read and make sure that the there’s some there that occurred after I’d gone or before I arrived but there are some there that when I was there so will be the crew that I probably escorted into the burial ground and I do often go up there and pay my respects, you know, I think it’s best, you know nice to do, I think it’s nice, it takes you back in the years and you can relive the old times and you think about the old times and the comradeship, that’s the point the comradeship, you see, and it was, actually is a photo up there, up the top there, on the left is, one of the, can you see it? Is one up there which the guard room and next is [unclear] down the tab and the one on the right hand side is the SHQ headquarters at Swinderby, they’re not there now, they’ve taken away, it’s all gone now but that’s, but it’s nice, to, I often drive up there, just for the sake of reliving memories, go up there and I told you about and I stood there, I parked the car, sitting there and in the park on the runway and I the airfield would be the dispersal and this is where I’m sitting in the car and I remember bringing the aircrew, the aircraft through here, cross this road [alarm goes off]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Hanks
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Ian Boole
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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AHanksJ160622, PHanksJ1602
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Pending review
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Format
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00:42:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Shetland
Description
An account of the resource
John Hanks joined the RAF and served as an armourer. Describes his role and his duties. Tells of his posting at Swinderby and East Kirkby. Gives a graphic and vivid account of an aircraft crash at RAF Swinderby. Describes comradeship between ground crew and aircrew. Expresses personal views regarding the bombing campaign.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
1660 HCU
bombing up
Catalina
crash
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1086/11544/ARaceR160204.2.mp3
54299c4c9b145c587092bdeea028a995
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Race, Raymond
Raymond Gordon Race
R G Race
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Raymond Race (288870 Royal Air Force).
He served as a corporal in a communication Squadron at RAF Hendon. His eldest brother Sergeant George Albert Race flew operations as an air gunner in 103 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds and 156 Squadron Pathfinders at RAF Warbouys; he was killed in action 30/31 January 1944. His other brother flew as a gunner with Coastal Command.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Race, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IL: It’s the fourth of February 2016. I’m interviewing Mr. Raymond Race. We are mainly talking about his older brother who was in Bomber Command and we are doing this at his home in Sutton in Hull. So, if you, just tell us about your early life, Raymond, yours and your brother’s early life.
RR: Right, yes. Well, so first of all, I told you, we’re a Wakefield family, my, it’s really, it’s the story of the industrial revolution [unclear] to put it that way because my family originated in Helmsley, they were all agricultural workers and gradually over the years they moved down from Helmsley to North Yorkshire, to West Yorkshire, Buckley and into Wakefield and they all worked in the textile industry so my father who was a [unclear] man in a woollen mill I think it was, no, I know it was, three uncles, four aunts and my mother all worked in the same mill, so we all lived basically within a half mile radius of the village so that’s the background to the family all we have is my father, as I showed you, was actually in the RFA, which is the Royal Field Artillery and we’re a family of six children [unclear] who is the brother, the eldest brother who was with Bomber Command as I say it was the oldest brother, my next to oldest brother actually he is still alive, was an air gunner with Coastal Command and I ended up just after the war, and basically I think it was the first of January ’46 I was conscripted as it were and I was on ground staff with, after the initial training with the what was then known as the metropolitan communications squadron in Hendon, which was, as the name implied, it was just a communication squadron flying the Proctors and aircraft like that for the some of the headquarters staff it was used to fly about during the business. Now I was a corporal in the squadron office, so that’s basically the background of the family, apart from the fact that my youngest brother when he was called up, he was a traitor, he went into the RAMC [laughs]
IL: What made three brothers all join the RAF?
RR: Don’t know.
IL: There was no, you didn’t have any
RR: No, nobody, I don’t know why [unclear] joined, he was my oldest brother, he was a [unclear] actually and initially when he joined for the first, he joined in May 1940 and he, it was in 19 and he was on maintenance work at various establishments, ground maintenance work not aircraft maintenance and he remustered as a, to become an air gunner in, I think it was, oh yes, it was December 1942 and then from that point of course he went through the training the acceptance [unclear], what do they call it, the aircraft, the, I think they call it the, anyway it was the process by they were accepted to become flying officers as it were and then they were trained at, he was trained obviously as an air gunner and then they moved on to training with the squadrons and he ended up with 103 Squadron which was in Elsham Wolds in, I think that was July 1943 was that, so that’s [unclear] I think there was another one somewhere
IL: So that’s a picture of his crew from Elsham Wolds, so when, how
RR: That’s the [unclear] the crew there, yeah.
IL: Yeah. So, how old was he when he first joined up?
RR: He was born in 1921 and he joined up in May ’40, so
IL: So he’d be nineteen.
RR: He’d be nineteen. I think initially it would be, I think he’d had gone exempt from service because he was in a building trade for some reason but eventually he just said, I am going to join up and did so, that’s the crew [unclear] was that, that’s in fact is quite unusual because if you read the back 103 squadron Peenemunde.
IL: Right.
RR: Now that is one of the famous air raids of the war. Peenemunde, it was the German rocket research establishment on the Baltic coast and the RAF raided the place, it was delayed the production of rockets actually, was after that raid they moved the establishment, the research establishment somewhere in Austria after the raid which just delayed the production of V1s and V2s otherwise we [unclear] enough to win war in the end. On that raid there is one of the various books on it and the air gunner, one of the air gunners shot down, actually shot down a Messerschmitt.
IL: On your brother’s plane?
RR: On my brother’s plane, yes [laughs]
IL: Gosh! Gosh! And so, is this, did your brother talk about it, did your brother talk about anything?
RR: Never.
IL: Ok. So this is stuff you found out subsequently
RR: Yes, yes. From various books. There’s a bit written about the war and the aircrew and thing
IL: Did you ever meet any other people in his crew?
RR: Never. No. He was very reluctant to talk about it at all because by the time after many years he just disappeared no one didn’t, no one actually was gone. I in fact, if you go a little bit further from that point about that was August 1943 I think it was somewhere about October ’43 the crew as a whole were transferred to the Pathfinder group
IL: Right.
RR: And that’s was when they moved over to RAF Warboys in that group, in number 8 Group it was at Bomber Command and strangely enough when the attack was made on Peenemunde the squadron they moved to 156 Squadron was in fact one of the leading squadrons [laughs] and so, as I say, the moved, they did several, from what I can gather, they did several flights from there until the 30th of January 1944, when they were shot down coming back from a raid over Berlin.
IL: Right.
RR: So he is in fact buried in a village called Vollenhove which
IL: Is it presumably in Holland?
RR: Holland, yes. The aircraft landed in what was then part of a polder, which is where the Dutch,
IL: Yeah.
RR: Yeah. And although they were in the nearest village, which is the village, as I say, Vollenhove
IL: Right.
RR: But the new village, where they actually crashed became, of course became land after the war by the Dutch and they created a village and the village is there in fact created a memorial to the, I think there was another aircraft had crashed nearby and they called it Marknesse and that’s a memorial the Dutch village themselves, the villagers themselves created that memorial to those two aircraft so they payed for those two aircraft.
IL: So, this is presumably a Commonwealth war grave that he’s now buried now.
RR: It is in fact.
IL: Was he reburied or was that a?
RR: [unclear] Commonwealth war graves commission.
IL: So what effect did that have on you and your family?
RR: My mother was distraught of course, she, was her eldest son, and she was even more distraught when, where is he? That was him, when my cousin eldest brother Donald, when he joined up and he followed a similar pattern because he, when he joined the air force he was in the RAF regiment which was [unclear] airfield and then again he volunteered to become an air gunner but he went to Coastal Command as an air gunner and he flew Liberators, is an American aircraft, so, but he did all, most of his training in, I think it was the Bahamas actually [laughs]
IL: Nice if you can get it.
RR: Apart from the fact that he had to go by ship from here to Canada and travel from Canada down through [unclear] and America to the Bahamas by train [laughs]
IL: That would be, that would be the difficult bit, wouldn’t it? [unclear] on the ship.
RR: Oh, there he is.
IL: So was your other brother, was your other brother actually in the RAF when your eldest brother died?
RR: No.
IL: Right. But it didn’t put him off?
RR: No. He was just about becoming of that age to join up but I think it was just having a bit of impetus [unclear] to join up, not to deter him, now that’s him, I think [unclear]
IL: Yes.
RR: [unclear]
IL: So your elder brother, how many missions did he fly?
RR: As far as I know he, when he flew from Elsham Wolds when he joined that aircraft which is a W registration number it was, I think he did with that crew, with that particular squadron, I think flew, ten I think it was, and then they were transferred to Warboys and the Pathfinder group. From what I can gather, from the information I was able to get I think he did about eight with that before they were shot down.
IL: Right.
RR: Yeah. Strangely enough there is a record that the aircraft, that of course they didn’t take the aircraft with them, they just, as a crew, the aircraft was still flying of course from Elsham Wolds as far as I can gather that particular aircraft was shot down in December 1943.
IL: Gosh! Ok.
RR: I forgot the number. There is a specific number on that, they are all numbered of course these aircraft, [unclear] interesting, sad actually [unclear] when they were shot down on the night of the 31st of January, in fact two of the crew survived and parachuted down.
IL: Right.
RR: And they were not immediately captured actually I believe, they were taken by the Dutch underground but eventually they were captured after about, I think about two months, they were captured and put into a, I think it was Stalag Luft something they called,
IL: Yeah.
RR: A prison camp it was, yeah, and they, one of them was, [unclear] somewhere, I can’t remember his name, Coin, that was it, Pat Coin, he was the radio operator, he in fact went to live in Canada. And there was another one, I forget his name now, I put it somewhere, but anyway the other one was a navigator who was not part of the regular crew because someone had been ill and he survived and he lived in Blackpool that gentleman.
IL: Right. So did you or your family ever see and meet these people?
RR: No. I wrote, I was in correspondence with the, Coin, Pat Coin his name was quite a long time actually and in fact he send some of the information through from the bits and pieces [unclear] and
IL: So did he, was he able to say how they were shot down?
RR: No, but there is a, a narrative in one of the books about these particular raids. Now apparently they were damaged over Berlin and as they were coming back, they were shot down by a German fighter.
IL: Right.
RR: As I say, two of them actually managed to parachute out but the rest of the crew were killed. Actually there is some, oh no, that’s, no, no, that’s another one, that’s another one of the same crew, that is in fact the church where they’re buried, local church [laughs].
IL: Gosh!
RR: [unclear] Oh, that’s the, that’s what I was looking for. That is our crew, but that is the war grave for an aircraft apparently they were shot down in 1942 is that one which is not, I don’t know where they came from, but that’s ours [unclear] the five.
IL: So was he buried immediately?
RR: As far as I know, yes.
IL: Yes. And then obviously [unclear] yeah.
RR: And then, they came in later.
IL: Have you ever managed to visit?
RR: Yes.
IL: Good.
RR: My parents, I believe again it was a bit easy as this but I believe they were taken on an escorted visit just after the war to see the graves, when they Commonwealth graves actually on the transfer and my wife and I went to, oh, I forget now [laughs], must be twenty years ago now, we actually went to on one of the weekends from [unclear] with a ferry and we went by train up Rotterdam to a place called Zwolle it was and which was the nearest rail end and then by bus from there to look at the grave, yeah.
IL: I can imagine that was quite emotional.
RR: Yeah. My mother and my older sister in fact they went, they were able to go to the opening ceremony for that memorial that the Dutch village had created for them. Do you need anything else? [unclear] Those are up there actually.
IL: Oh, those are his medals. Oh, the family. Your brother’s and your father’s.
RR: That’s, all much yes, those my father’s, yeah, and that’s his Lapel badge, ubique is the name of that logo [unclear] these days which is [unclear], that’s the Bomber Command clasp [unclear].
IL: Yeah. Is that the one that was only released fairly recently, yes.
RR: A couple of years ago, yeah.
IL: Yeah. How did that make you feel, that it took so long?
RR: Very annoyed, I think lots of people were very annoyed about it, yes, all down to Churchill of course, I shouldn’t have said that [laughs]
IL: You can say what, honestly, you can say what you like, Raymond [laughs].
RR: Oh dear [laughs].
IL: Yes, it was a sort of expediency, wasn’t it?
RR: It was political.
IL: Absolutely.
RR: Very political [unclear]
IL: So how long were you in the RAF for?
RR: I was in for two years and three months.
IL: Right.
RR: Cause I, [clears throat] another one of these quirks, I was still there [unclear] the wartime regulations
IL: Right.
RR: First of January ’46. Because after that of course we had, now what do they call it? National service but that didn’t start until the first of January, I think it was the first of January ’47. So they did exactly two years after that but I was a bit longer because the old wartime regulations [unclear]
IL: Oh, careful!
RR: [unclear] Oh there, that’s where [unclear] I think, oh yes, I am, that’s initial training [laughs], that’s me.
IL: Right. So what was your actual role?
RR: My particular role?
IL: Yeah.
RR: I was in the squadron office.
IL: Right.
RR: The corporal in the squadron, I’m dealing with the [unclear] of the squadron.
IL: So what did you do as a later career?
RR: Well I just carried on for what I had done before, I was, started up, you probably know, you remember the public assistance? I can’t think that far back [laughs]. 1939.
IL: No, not quite, not quite.
RR: Well, you know, you’ve heard of [unclear], you’ve heard of workhouses and things like that?
IL: Yeah.
RR: Well, under the old public assistance system, because the local authorities dealt with care of the elderly, the decrepit, provided hospitals and all sorts of things but then of course when the, I think it was the Beveridge report was made
IL: Yes. Well, I don’t remember it but I was, I am aware of it [laughs]
RR: I worked through it you see [laughs]
IL: Yeah, of course.
RR: And then of course the things split up, there was the national health service and there was the welfare service and the national assistance service which put a lot of the services started providing the residential accommodation and things like that and the welfare of the elderly, the national assistance provided cash, help and you did all national health service [unclear] and after five reorganisations I finally retired in [laughs] the 60s, no, I worked in the initially with the [unclear] county council as a duly authorised officer, do you know what that is?
IL: No.
RR: Well, sorry. [laughs]
IL: It’s alright, it’s lovely to hear you explain.
RR: Yes, well, [unclear] act I think was in 1989, 1890 I think it was, and the mental health act of 1930, I think it was, to commit a person to a lunatic asylum as it used to be called, on a public basis there had to be two medical opinions, one a GP and one a specialist. But the person who actually did the admin part of getting them there was a duly authorised officer of the local authority, that was me.
IL: Alright.
RR: You could also, under the mental health act, the duly authorised officer on the advice of a GP could arrange for the admission on a temporary basis I think it was for three days to a mental institution so in that sense I was the visitor [unclear] as it were.
IL: Gosh!
RR: And then eventually I moved from the West Riding I was an assistant divisional officer there to become the deputy director of welfare services in Holme city.
IL: Right.
RR: And then after another four, was it four? Four reorganisations, I eventually retired as an assistant director for [unclear] county council [laughs]
IL: Gosh! So, is there anything else you would like to tell me about Bomber Command, Raymond? We will take some, if it’s ok with you, I will take some photographs of [unclear] the fresh you got.
RR: [unclear] oh, it’s Marknesse [unclear] those are still there, oh, that’s the, those are the war graves there and the memorial there, that in fact is the memorial window in Warboys parish church.
IL: Alright.
RR: To the squadron. We light the way, is the 15, 456 Squadron motto.
IL: It’s lovely.
RR: Yeah. But there’s all sort of bits and pieces. I mean, there are, of course, well, you probably know that, various records in, I think there is certainly one in role of honour in Ely cathedral because that must be, I think people around the Cambridge area who were killed. [unclear] The 103 Squadron, I think their motto was, let me get [unclear], the official badge of 103 squadron was black swan.
IL: Right.
RR: Now, let me see if I got the pronunciation right. Noli mi tangere. Which I understand is ancient French and it means touch me not [laughs]. I know if you’ve seen that.
IL: I don’t think I have.
RR: [unclear] Canadian [unclear]
IL: Gosh! [unclear]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Raymond Race
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Locker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ARaceR160204
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:29:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Raymond Race was born in a family working in the textile industry and joined the RAF in 1943, serving on the metropolitan communications squadron. Tells about his family’s military service: his father joined the Royal Field Artillery; his eldest brother who served on 103 Squadron in Bomber Command, flew an operation on Peenemunde and got shot down over Holland; another brother served as an air gunner in Coastal Command. Describes his elder brother’s military service and his burial place and the memorial built in Holland on the crash site. Tells of his life after the war, working as a civil servant.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Peenemünde
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1942
1943
1944-01-30
103 Squadron
156 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
final resting place
killed in action
memorial
Pathfinders
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Warboys
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1143/11699/ASterryBS-PearsonC180725.1.mp3
7d819e973c0d686b5885d326242cf20c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sterry, Bernard and Pearson, Cecilia
Bernard Sydney Sterry
B S Sterry
Cecilia Pearson
C Pearson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bernard Sterry and Cecilia Pearson. They remember the bombing of Hull.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Sterry, BS-Pearson, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IL: Uh Ian locker uh interviewing Bernard Sterry and Cecilia Pearson at Cecilia’s home in Walkington near Beverley, East Yorkshire. Bernard, I understand you're starting. Tell us about your early life then with your father in Hull.
BS: Well, we lived next door to a school, so I went to that school, but we moved from there when I was about seven, I think eight
IL: [unclear]
BS. We moved a bit further out of town uh, up Beverley Road and we got some bombs there and we had to move out of that
IL: Right. Some bombs!
BS: Yeah
IL: When, so when was that?
BS: Oh, when the war started, yeah
IL: Right. So how old were you when the war started?
BS: Ten
CP: Ten
IL: Right
BS: So uh, we uh, we moved to Adderbury Grove after we got bombed out of uh Epworth street and we stayed there until that, well I stayed there until I got married and you probably did and uh
CP: Well other then being evacuated
BS: Right yes, was evacuated. War, I heard the war being declared on the radio or wireless as it was then on the Sunday the third of September. On the fourth of September the three of us, because we had another sister, they went to an aunt of my mothers, who brought her up and I went to a cousin of my mothers in a place called Winterton, over in Lincolnshire
IL: Right okay
BS: You probably it
IL: Yes, I do
BS: Yeah and I went round about four different places before I finally got settled with a family at Roxby which is about another couple of miles further out, nearer to Scunthorpe. I went to school there for a little while until what, when I was 11 I think and I went to Winterton School and uh when I was 14 uh, my mother saw the headmaster and convinced him that I had to stay on another year because she was in the ambulance service and she was working 24 hours a day and then 24 hours off and then so she [unclear] couldn't do with me at home, she couldn't look after me so I was there until uh the august in 1944, that would be, I think yes and then I came home and I got a job as an apprentice electrician so I stayed there
BS: Who’s that lot?
CP: You!
BS: Me?
IL: Found a newspaper cutting of Bernard being commonly fed at Winterton School
BS: That’ll be me there with the glasses on, on that side
IL: So you were away, so you were evacuated from Hull for the whole war?
CP: Yeah
BS: No, until
CP: No, [unclear]
BS: September ‘44
IL: Right
BS: When I came home, I was 15 to that time and I came home and got a job as an apprentice electrician
IL: Right. So, did you see any, did, could you look across the water and see any of the bombing of Hull?
BS: Oh yeah, it was light up like a Christmas tree and you see the bombers in the searchlights as they're coming over there's a bit of a direct line it was known [unclear] about eighteen, twenty miles I think but we, I used to stand outside watching. You could see the searchlights pick up on the aircraft and [mimics anti-aircraft fire] you could hear the guns going but uh I don't know, what else
IL: No. Was Scunthorpe bombed?
BS: Oh, they managed to, they managed to get a [unclear] down near Lysaght Steel Works and they killed a donkey in a field and that was it
IL: Right
BS: So, they should know where Scunthorpe was because they built the steel works [unclear]
IL: Right [laughs]. So what about you Cecilia, where you?
CP: I was born in Blundell Street, the same as Bernard next door to the school and Epworth Street, Adderbury Grove but I, I can remember that night that we were all outside because dad had picked me up when the war was announced we were outside in Epworth Street, weren't we? Yeah
IL: Right
CP: And then from there I was six, just six and then I went to Winterton as Bernard said and I was moved about nine times in about six years
IL: So were you moved around members of the family or were these
CP: No
IL: Was this, just strangers?
CP: Yes, strangers. The first one was mum's aunt and then we moved to various strangers in Winterton, various places and then Stella and I were split up [unclear], wouldn’t she?
BS: She [unclear]
CP: And I went to Elsham there and I was there a couple of years I think and then from Elsham I went to Horkstow and was at school in Saxby,
IL: Right
CP: Yes, Saxby, but we could see Hull burning from the school windows. Uhm when dad got killed, the lady I was living with in Horkstow, uhm I was outside, and she just came outside and said your father's been killed and walked back in
BS: She was a bit cold, wasn't she?
CP: [unclear]
IL: So, how old were you then, how old were you then?
CP: When dad got killed, I was ten
IL: Right
CP: But I lived [unclear] in there at Winterton and there's a gentleman there and had a big store, didn't he? Mr Wilfred
BS: Yes
CP: Had the store and they, they were [unclear], he even walked from Winterton to Horkstow to bring me a present at Christmas. He was a bachelor wasn't he [unclear], he had a housekeeper
BS: He had two sisters, I believe
CP: Yeah, housekeeper and then I was 12, wasn’t I, when I came home
BS: Could be
CP: Yeah. I didn't go to dad's funeral I wasn't allowed to go said I was too young
BS: Well I was at home
CP: You got the telegram, didn't you?
BS: When I found the telegram on the uh floor when they opened the front door, telegram was on the floor I picked it up and that’s it, I was the first to know. I took it up to mother uh, she was at an ambulance station and she promptly fainted and then we went and told my dad's mum and father and they were absolutely shocked we would imagine that uh my grandfather didn't last too long after that it seemed to go downhill really shockingly because I don't think he was in too much health to start with so that was it more or less
CP: I can remember dad coming home on leave 48 hour passes and being home and they dropped a bomb in Melbot Grove digging this crater because dad, we were in the shelter and dad went out to help didn't he?
IL: So how, did you, did you keep it, did how did you keep in touch or did you see each other when you were
CP: He used to come to see me
BS: Yeah, I was going on a bike and go to see her
IL: Right. So when did you see your mom?
CP: Occasionally
BS: Very infrequently
IL. Right
CP: Occasionally, I think maybe three times
IL: During the entire time you were evacuated?
CP: Yeah
BS: Your father and I came across [unclear] at one time to see us
CP: Yes I was in the playing field and we were all lined up ready to come in and I saw dad and I ran out, I ran to him and he said oh go back, go back you'll get into trouble and the teacher said no, no that's fine and then it went home, you know, went off
IL: So, when he came home on leave, did you usually see him?
BS: Sometimes
CP: I think he was going about three to three or four times that's all then, so we've seen them about four times
IL: So, did he come to see you or did you come back to home?
CP: We came to Hull
IL: Right
CP: Came on the ferry
BS: Well I was at home on Easter, er when his last visit, when he came home on leave, it was in the Easter of 1944 and that was the last time I spoke
IL: So obviously we're mainly talking about from the bomber command perspective your father, what did your father do before the war?
BS: Well, he served his time as a cooper
IL: Right!
BS: With the parent company
CP: Johnsons
BS: And when he was 21 he got the push [unclear] apprentices [unclear]
IL: Yeah
BS: And [coughs] excuse me, he went uh with the Hull cooperation transport as a conductor and he was on trams for a little while and then uh, he got transferred onto buses
IL. Alright
CP: He [unclear]
BS: He was a bus conductor until the war broke out when he volunteered [unclear]
IL. When did he volunteer?
CP: 1940
BS: Would be yeah
IL: Thanks
CP: 1940
IL: And did he have any, so did he volunteer straight away for the RAF or was he?
BS: Well he wanted the RAF
CP: Yeah, yeah
IL: Alright
CP: Went straight into
BS: Did he have any uhm, did he have any connection to the RAF?
CP: No
IL: Right
CP: No, whatsoever his brother wouldn't go in, would he? He was, his brother was a conscientious objector, wasn’t he?
IL: Right
CP: He wanted to know everything about it and dad wasn't prepared to tell him
BS: Dad was killed on uh just after a training exercise had been on and they were landing at their own airfield and a German aircraft followed them in and shot them down as they were landing. The way I understood it, they bounced off a couple of aircraft and banged into a hangar and that was it.
IL: Right. So what was he flying in when he was?
BS: Stirling
CP: Stirling
BS: Stirling bomber
CP: He didn’t like then, did he? He hated them
BS: He was a flight engineer
IL: Right. So what sort of things was he doing, sorry, let's, if we just take a step back then. So, when he joined the RAF what, can you tell us what you know about his service in the RAF?
BS: Well, he did his square bashing at Blackpool
IL: Right
BS: And they were actually stationed at some of the hotels in Blackpool obviously because of shortages at camps, I suppose who had been so busy and when he finished that he went off to St Athans
IL: Right
BS: To train as a uh engine uh fitter
IL: Right
BS: And it was it's quite a long course actually and then he was on ground crew for a while and he volunteered for the aircrew
CP: But his commander didn't want him to fly, did he?
BS: No
CP: He wanted him to stay ground staff
IL: Who, sorry, who didn't?
CP: His commander
IL: Right
CP: He wanted to stay ground staff but he wouldn’t, he wanted, maybe because he was quite a bit older than the others they were like in the 20s weren't they?
IL: Well, I was going to say how old was your father?
CP: Dad was 37 when he was killed
IL: Right. So he was, so that
CP: Like 32
IL: So he'd be about 32 when he when he joined, when he joined up
CP: So the others were just boys weren't they?
IL: Right
BS: They used to call him puff
CP: Yeah
BS: The aircrew
CP: So he was, he wanted to keep up with him I suppose didn't he? Wanted to do his bit not because he was older
IL: So, as ground crew, do you know where he where he was stationed when he was ground crew?
BS: Don't really remember
IL: Right. You don't have any, no, you don't know particularly what aircraft he was working, he worked so?
BS: No, not as an engine fitter, no
CP: No, either
IL: Right. So when did he when did he volunteer for aircrew?
BS: I don’t know, he was ground crew for a while.
CP: 1941
BS: ’44, no, it would be late ’43 when he volunteered I rarely 40 but he volunteered for aircrew because he was still on the training when he got killed
IL: Right, okay, so he was, so he was training to be a flight engineer
BS: Yes
IL: Right
CP: But the last fortnight that he was alive, they'd been flying day and night
BS: OH yeah
CP: And they were tired out and sick and fed up a bit, he'd written to his mother
IL: Right
CP: That he was
IL: But these,
CP: So [unclear] tired
IL: These were just training, he was just training missions
CP: Yeah [unclear] fighter, cause he came out of the sky and shot them down
BS: As far as we know, he was on training, but training flights often uh used to cover what they called gardening, dropping mines off the coast, Dutch coast
CP: But they've been getting ready for D-day, haven't they? I think that's why they've been flying day and night
BS: Well that was a week after
CP: Yeah
BS: It was exactly a week before, it was on a wet Sunday 1944 when he was killed Sunday no, Sunday night, Monday morning, half past two on the Monday morning, when he was killed
CP: 31st, was it 29th or 30th?
BS: 29th
CP: 29th
BS: And he, uh you interrupted my train of thought there
CP: Sorry?
BS: You interrupted my train of thought
IL: You were talking, you were talking about some of these training flights being mine laying
BS: That's right yeah, they did. It wasn't officially [unclear] but that's what they did, it's part of the training but actually they were a bit of a dodgy [unclear] laying mines because the Germans would often be waiting for they but they certainly followed him but I
CP: He had orders to land, didn’t he? He just had orders to land
BS: [unclear] I went to the Lancaster at, what they call it? East Kirkby
IL: Right
BS: You know it, yeah. I went there on my 65th birthday I think it was not, maybe not, maybe later uh it was a treat for me from the family apparently and I went into that Lancaster when we went out about when it came back and I, there was a German uh fellow on the aircraft he'd come across and he was there like and he was talking to me and I told him what had happened and he said, oh, he said I’ll find out about that. So he wrote to me and told me exactly what had happened and there was two of them on the aircraft, it was a twin-engine aircraft and they gave me the names and ranks
IL: Right
CP: What, the one that shot him down?
BS: They were shot down by a Mosquito. Apparently, it was the only aircraft over England that day
IL: Right. So they would, so the aircraft that shot your father down was also, was then late it was was shot down by mosquitoes that night
BS: It was shot into North Sea, yeah
IL: Gosh!
BS: So there was two of them on that, that they got killed as well
CP: Was it blue two planes that had been hammered into? Dumped right into the hangar [unclear]?
BS: They hit two aircraft and bounced into the hangar
CP: Yeah
BS: And they wasn’t actually going [unclear]
CP: No, certainly he was shot down, he bounced in and took two others with him
BS: They hit the hangar
IL: So, did you ever have any contact with any of the other people from, where was he stationed when he was killed, sorry?
CP: Bury St Edmunds
BS: No, he wasn't. When he was killed, he was at Spring, Spring Cottage I think it was, it was a satellite ground for uh Stradishall
IL: Right
BS: Which is now HMP prison
IL: Right
BS: But uh that's where he was when he was killed
IL: Okay. Did you ever have any contact with any, you know, station commander or?
CP: No
BS: There was a, an officer came from the camp uh to refuel them
IL: Right
BS: But uh that was the only contact we had
IL: So, presumably his funeral was in Hull?
BS: Oh yeah he's in Chanterlands Avenue.
IL: Right
CP: Your mum got five pounds to order it, didn't she?
BS: Sorry?
CP: Mum got five pounds to order his funeral from the [unclear], to bring him home
BS: Uhm they paid for the, all commissions paid for the stone and they maintain it because I wanted to print the names on to make it stand out and I was told by uh Gary, the funeral undertaker that uh I couldn't do it, I wouldn't be allowed
CP: I know, bless you, to [unclear] proper dues
BS: So, I didn’t do it, but they do clean them up now and again
CP: I cleaned it up last time I went
BS: And they recut the letters on it names you don't know that but that's infrequently. I don’t know, what else I can tell you about it? You’ll have to tell me what you want to know.
IL: Well, whatever, it's your story you know uhm, anything you, if you want any details you want to tell me about your dad or about his service, um?
BS: Well we don't know much about that really except that he did serve time at St Athan as I said training as what we call it? Not as a flight engineer, he was on ground staff and he was a mechanic but uh, he was classed as a fitter, that was it, a fitter 2e that's what he was and it was an LAC there by that time and he only became a sergeant when he went to the, into aircrew
CP: On that last letter I think it said, from the last letter I think it was 1943.
IL: Did he?
CP: That last letter was five months before he got killed
IL: Did he talk about what he was doing when he came home more?
BS: No, not really, no
CP: He did to his parents I think but not
IL: Right
CP: Not in front of me he didn’t. Don’t know if he said anything to you
BS: No, what I think we were a bit too young really
CP: Yeah. Those kids were kids then, weren’t they? You know what I mean
BS: And you were reminded fairly frequently
CP: Pardon?
BS: You were reminded fairly frequently that you were kids
CP: Should be seen and not heard
BS: Something like that, yes
CP: [unclear] should be seen and not heard, pity the [unclear] now [laughs]. And I belong then corporation [unclear], didn't he when before the war
BS: Yeah before the war
CP: Yeah
BS: Yeah, he got a few prizes for that
CP: You said it'd come out of the [unclear] in the recession wouldn't he, in the 30s
BS: Yeah
CP: And he went into corporation
BS: He, he was taken out of the paint industry when he served his time at 21. Nearly all apprentices, whatever trade you were, when you reached 21, out through the door
CP: And he got married then
BS: Well the father would, his father wouldn't allow him to get married before then
CP: No
BS: Because our eldest sister, Stella, she was born before that
CP: Yeah, about eight months before they got married, wasn’t she?
BS: Yeah
IL: Right
BS: He wouldn't allow him to get back until he was 21 which was the norm in those days, oh well
IL: What happened to your mum then after the war?
CP: My mum was in the ambulance service during the war
IL: Right
CP: She joined that and um wouldn't she? Driving ambulances and then she was at various jobs, didn't she?
BS: Yeah
CP: And then in 1955 she remarried
IL: Right
BS: Yeah, he was chief engineer on a trawler
CP: Yeah and then he died didn't he? And then she was a widow after that until she died what 80, 88 [unclear] wasn’t she?
BS: No idea
IL: Right is there anything else you feel you need to, you'd like to tell me about?
CP: Well, we'll remember afterwards then [laughs]
BS: I saw a bomber taking off from Elsham, cause where I was, we were below the Lincolnshire Wolds and Elsham was on the top and you could see him taking off. He'd be flying north to take off and it got not far off the runway apparently when it blew up, so it left to be cold and stopped the other aircraft flying off from the red. So I understood from someone I was talking to some years after that there was everybody on the camp, including the group captain uh commander, he was out there with a shovel and anybody else who couldn't [unclear] filling it in and within just over half an hour or so they've been flying again, taking up on it and carrying on
CP: Mother got a machine gun in the corner of Beverley Road didn't she?
IL: Sorry?
CP: Mother and my friend got machine guns at the corner of Beverley Road
BS: No, they didn't
CP: Well that's what I was told
BS: Well you had more than I did right um
IL. Right. From a German plane?
CP: Yeah, [unclear] at the corner of Beverley Road and King Edward Street
BS: I saw
IL: When was that?
CP: I don't know what year it was, but I remember her saying that they had to get into a shop doorway to get out of the way
IL: It was that when they were on duties ambulance?
CP: No, no they were walking in Hull
IL: Right
CP: They were off-duty
BS: Well, I saw the last German aircraft over Hull and it shot up a cinema, two cinemas on Holderness Road, people were leaving, cause all the lights were on as they went out through the doors and they machine gunned them on the way out. I want them coming down the red himself because I was walking down King Edward Street that was nearly opposite Thornton valleys when it went over and I can see all the markers quite clearly on it and quite low down
IL: So when was that?
BS: That would be 1945, early 45.
IL: So it's fairly early
BS: Yeah
IL: Right okay
BS: That would be one of the last raids. I understood it was the last one
IL: I think it's the last actually, yes because I, I know that and I’m not 100 percent sure but I, I think that those were the last civilian deaths in the UK from enemy aircraft action
BS: Yeah
IL: The cinema queueing, the cinema [unclear] in Hull so if you saw that that's actually, that's really interesting
BS: Well, I saw it go over, I heard it
IL: So, is it a single engine or was it a two-engine fighter or?
Bs: No, it wasn't a fighter, it was a bomber I think
IL: All right
BS: But, uh or a fighter bomber, uh I heard the machine gunning so I was walking along, along King Edward Street that would be when they were [unclear] and the people leaving the cinema
IL: Right
BS: And that, I was on the side where he came across me sort of thing so he wouldn't see me because I was in the dark, uh couldn't see me on that side running a bit of moonlight probably I don't remember that much but uh
CP: People coming out with cinema they'd be littered
BS: But I was, I was in the dark it was all dark down there never had any streetlights of course in those days
IL: Just one just, maybe one last thing, uhm did you ever have, did you, were you ever conscious after the war of the sort of the lack of recognition of Bomber Command?
BS: Not really, not until
CP: [unclear], no,
BS: Not until
CP: [unclear]
BS: Some years ago, [unclear] years ago [unclear] aware of it
CP: Cause it’s always been Spitfires, hasn’t it? Never Bomber Command, they [unclear]
IL: There was no, there was no, there was no, there was no sort of, you've never had occasion where you've maybe been talking about your father or his wartime service and people have been oh well you know Bomber Command and they were all, they didn't do a very good job, well they did a great job but you know that they were sort of, murdered lots of German civilians and
CP: I did meet a Luftwaffe pilot on holiday
IL: Right
BS: You did what?
CP: Met a Luftwaffe pilot on holiday
BS: Oh, do you?
CP: Yeah cause I was with these Germans, because for some reason people mistake me for German when you're on holiday, for some reason I don't know why um
IL: Is it because you keep taking the taking the sun lounges? [laughs]
CP: Maybe, yeah, could be
BS: You'll have to excuse for a moment
IL. No problem at all
CP: Was in this cafeteria at night time with these people and he came in and then you know we enjoyed the evening when, when he, when it was time to go he got up and kissed me and they all roared with laughing cause they never, they said, they never ever thought they'd see him kiss an Englander [laughs]
IL: Right. I’m going to I’m going to stop this now if we, if we'll just chat.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bernard Sterry and Cecilia Pearson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Locker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASterryBS-PearsonC180725
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:31:19 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Hull
Wales--Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Bernard Sterry and Cecilia Pearson, both born in Hull, talk about their lives as evacuees during the war. Bernard, who was 10 years old when war broke out, was evacuated from Hull to North Lincolnshire until September 1944, when he came back home at the age of 15 and got a job as an apprentice electrician. Cecilia was six when war was declared. She was also evacuated to North Lincolnshire, to Winterton and other places; she remembers the day her father was killed. Bernard and Cecilia both remember seeing Hull burning from the distance. Bernard tells of his dad, a bus conductor, who volunteered for the RAF in 1940; after doing his initial training at Blackpool, he was sent to RAF St Athan to become an engine fitter; he was then shot down by a German aircraft after a training exercise on a Stirling. Bernard later found out that the aircraft that had shot down his father, was in turn shot down shortly afterwards by a Mosquito over the North Sea. Among the various episodes, Bernard witnessed in early 1945, the bombing of a cinema in Hull and the people killed were the last civilian casualties of World War Two in Britain to be caused by enemy aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1945
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
home front
killed in action
RAF St Athan
shelter
shot down
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/PPennLE1701.1.jpg
824abb2c2b7f455b204aa46be93d7f9a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/APennL170622.1.mp3
0620d580b7438a89e75829dd538816b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Penn, Lawrence
L Penn
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Lawrence Penn (b. 1922, 413929 Royal Australian Air Force) his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron part of the Second Tactical Air Force.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lawrence Penn and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-05
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Penn, L
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MaCartney, the interviewee is Lawrence or Lorrie Penn. The interview is taking place at Mr Penn’s home in Mosman, New South Wales, on the 22nd of June 2017. Also present is Mister Penn’s wife June. Ok, Lorrie, I’ve look at some details on your background and I see you were born in Cremorne.
LP: Yes, I do.
JM: And indeed as we were having a little chat to start with before we started the interview, you mentioned you were born in Cremorne,
LP: Cremorne, yes.
JM: In Murdock Street,
LP; In Murdock Street.
JM: In what street, yes, so that was obviously at home
LP: It was a proper hospital in those days but not now of course
JM: A proper hospital back then, was it? Right. No, ok, and that was in December 1922?
LP: That’s right. 27th, two days after Christmas, it was a dreadful time to be born.
JM: Indeed, indeed. And, did the family live round here so that you then went to school around here?
LP: Yes, I did at Cremorne initially then we, after about six years of age we went to Adelaide and then we went up to Cairns and then down to Coffs Harbour so I had, it was after I came back from Coffs Harbour that I had a couple of years at Trinity College and then went to Shore for three or four years,
JM: Right.
LP: And finished my education there.
JM: Finished at Shore, ok. In moving around, quite a bit of the countryside there in just what you’ve said, how did you find different parts of Australia? Do you have any particular memories that stand out for you in your early years of going around the countryside at all?
LP: Oh, I enjoyed it all, perhaps that’s where I gave them my interest in overseas, finding out what was going on overseas.
JM: And did you keep any friends at all down the track from those early years or?
LP: No, probably, as a country down from the other states but from Shore School lifelong.
JM: Right, yes.
LP: Just about, I outlasted them all I was [unclear]
JM: Yes, I guess that would be getting almost to the case now and so you did your intermediate at Shore.
LP: Yes, I did.
JM: And then
LP: And then left Shore and went into a bank as a bank clerk there until the war began.
JM: Right. Did you do leaving certificate as well?
LP: No, no.
JM: Just intermediate.
LP: Just intermediate.
JM: Intermediate, right, ok. And so you left, well before we go into your banking role, were you involved in sports or?
LP: Usual things.
JM: School.
LP: Yeah. Football and cricket. The main, think I did a bit of tennis.
JM: Bit of tennis, yeah. And around where were you living with you going to Shore were you sort of in this area or?
LP: Yeah, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: Still Cremorne, Southern Street. Cremorne.
JM: Cremorne, ok. And so, did you then go to scouts or Air League or anything?
LP: In the school cadets, school cadets and after I left school I didn’t join, I just did tennis club after school.
JM: Tennis club, right, ok. And then into, let me think, so then you would have been probably started work being then in the Depression years.
LP: It’s been about 1938, ’37, ’38 when I left school and went straight into getting a job with the bank.
JM: Ah, yes, that’s true, that’s true, yes, so you were still at school in the Depression years potentially.
LP: I was in Coffs Harbour I think during [unclear].
JM: Coffs Harbour, right. Ok.
LP: My father was a theatre manager.
JM: Oh, ok, so.
LP: That’s why we went from state to state virtually and then when he retired, he finished up writing The picture show man, his experience because his father was also started off producing, not producing films, but showing films all around the rural areas up the North Coast there.
JM: Right, right.
LP: And my dad wrote a résumé of what happened to his youth and so forth and they made a movie out of it, they called The Picture Show Man.
JM: That’s right, that’s right, indeed. Uhm, so that would have been, picture shows would have been very much a discretionary expenditure so with the Depression that would have been quite a tough going for your father.
LP: It was tough going, yes. He was educated mainly in Tamworth there, in Tamworth, lovely town up the North Coast.
JM: Indeed. So, then when you, the family, your father retired, then is that when you came back to Sydney?
LP: Yes, well, Dad entered the army when the war started out, entered the army as a private and finished up as a Major, going through Lieutenant Colonel when he was finally discharged and Dad had a bit of trouble, just trouble and he had, he was medically discharged then.
JM: Ok. And, so then you went into the bank when you left school?
LP: Yes.
JM: And which bank was that?
LP: It was called the English Scottish and Australian Bank then,
JM: Yes.
LP: But it’s the ANZ now.
JM: ANZ, yes, the Esanda, wasn’t it its original name, the Esanda?
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, that’s right. Ok, so, you were, whereabouts were you based in the bank? Were you in the city or just?
LP: The first job was at the Spit Junction.
JM: Spit Junction?
LP: Yes [laughs] Very handy.
JM: Oh, ok, very handy, very handy.
LP: And then I went to the hill office after a year and a bit, to King George Street in the city of Sydney and did a little bit of relieving going to different banks when they were on holiday, the South was on holidays. I wasn’t very high up in the bank at all.
JM: Oh, you were only fairly young at this stage, I mean, Goodness gracious!
LP: [laughs] But, no, it is a dreadful thing to say but it was a fortunate thing for me was that the war started really because it made such a, I wouldn’t have met June.
JP: No. [laughs]
JM: Well, I think there are a lot of
LP: Because I met June in New York in, June was a child evacuee from England and she was only seventeen when I met her and I was nineteen and I just got my wings in Canada and we went to New York on leave
JM: On leave, yes.
LP: And met her there. Well, she met me really, because she picked me out a crowd of
JP: I was having lunch in this Hotel Edison and they asked me, the management, who would I like from that group of airmen over there, who could just come and have lunch with us. And I looked at all the faces and I picked Lorrie.
JM: Oh my Goodness gracious!
JP: He was invited over to have lunch with us
JM: Oh my goodness!
JP: We were both [unclear] management.
LP: We had only about a week to leave in New York. Then I went over across to England on the Queen Elizabeth then and of course won the war [?] over there but of course we didn’t have any correspondence between us for two years. It was just by accident that I met June when they, [unclear] girls were brought back to England after being evacuated.
JM: Right. We will come to a bit more detail about that shortly let’s just, you’ve got a little bit of to, we’ve got to go from your, when you were with the bank and then the war started and so then you enlisted, in September ’41, I see,
LP: That’s right.
JM: So, where, at Bradfield Park, I can see this, so that’s the normal enlisting place for most people there?
LP: Yes.
JM: So, and you did nearly three months at Bradfield Park.
LP: That’s right.
JM: But perhaps before I go a bit further, what made, was there any particular factor that caused you to actually go into the, choose the Air Force to enlist into or?
LP: I was always interested in flying. I remember Dad showed me a free joyride trip to an aircraft that was doing some pleasure flights around Manly and we went up there and that
JM: Sparked your interest.
LP: Sparked my interest.
JM: So that would have been what, do you remember how old you were when that was? Fifteen or so? Maybe earlier?
LP: It would have been earlier than that.
JM: Earlier than that?
LP: It would be about ten, I would say.
JM: Oh my goodness! So that didn’t prompt you to join the Air League at all?
LP: No, because I was still in Shore, at the Shore Grammar School and in the cadets, the cadets were mainly interested in the uniforms and these rifles, they would take their rifles home and all that sort of thing.
JM: And did you do any sort of like officer training in the cadets or?
LP: Yes, but I didn’t advance [unclear], no.
JM: You didn’t advance. Ok. And so, you had, so when came time to join up, then obviously Air Force was going to be the one that you were going to.
LP: Yes, I was going, definitely wanted to join the Air Force.
JM: Right, ok. And so, off to Bradfield Park and then off to
LP: Narromine.
JM: Narromine for your Elementary Flying Training.
LP: That’s right. Went solo there.
JM: Yes.
LP: Twenty courses and there were fifty of us on twenty course and there was only two of us left.
JM: My goodness me, yes.
LP: And this, do you know Tony Vine at all?
JM: No, I don’t know Tony.
LP: Anyhow, he is an ex naval submarine commander actually and he does a lot of commentating on Anzac Day for the ABC over the year and he took an interest in me and he rounded up and got all the stories of the whole twenty, I will show you the book afterwards that he’s written, released that only a couple of months ago.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Down in Canberra.
JM: Right, very interesting, I’ll have a look at it afterwards, yeah. So, Narromine, then back to Bradfield Park for
LP: The Japanese just came in then.
JM: Ah, about 40, yes
LP: We were all ready to hop on the ship and go to San Francisco, the war came in, they didn’t know what to do with us at the time so we went back to Narromine.
JM: Narromine.
LP: Where we refreshed the course. Things got straight and out what was going to happen and we went back and joined the ship and went to San Francisco, as First Class passengers, wonderful [laughs].
JM: Yes. And you were actually in Sydney then when the Japanese came into the harbour?
LP: I think I was still in Narromine.
JM: Still in Narromine, right, ok.
LP: Yes, still in Narromine waiting the war, so.
JM: Right.
LP: With the Japanese.
JM: But when the submarines came into the harbour at [unclear], you weren’t in Sydney.
LP: I wasn’t here, still in Narromine, pretty sure, yes.
JM: Ok, so off you went to, uhm, to San Francisco and.
LP: Yes, and we went by train up to Vancouver, a lovely, quite an eye-opener how lovely it was that trip and then from Vancouver to Edmonton.
JM: Yes.
LP: And we were held there for oh, four to five weeks I think in Edmonton, Canada.
JM: Ah yes, about four weeks looking at the dates here in your logbook, here at the record of service, yes, it was 9th of May until the 6th of June.
LP: That’ll be right, yes, that’ll be right.
JM: So, so what were you doing, any training there in?
LP: No, no, we were just being held there to. We had the medical, the Canadians were very keen to get the medical condition of whatever arriving there so we had dental and all sort of things, x-rays and things like that. Sports.
JM: Yes, a bit of sports to keep you active, I suppose.
LP: Keep us fit, yes. Waiting on a posting to a service training school.
JM: Right.
LP: Which was Dauphin, Manitoba.
JM: Whereabouts?
LP: Dauphin was just north, northwest of Winnipeg.
JM: Right. And how, was that another train trip?
LP: Yes, it was. Over the Rockies and a wonderful trip.
JM: And that would have been quite an experience then to see some of that scenery.
LP: Oh, it was. It was then.
JM: Yeah.
LP: Jasper and up very, many thousand of feet we had to go through the Rockies to and then down on the plains, from then on east of there of course it was flatter than a pancake until you got to the East Coast of Canada pretty well.
JM: Yes, yes, and what training did you do at Dauphin?
LP: At Dauphin? That was a service training school, and that’s where I got my wings, we had to, we were there for [unclear] several months and it was quite hot in Canada in summer.
JM: Yes, that’s right, June through to almost the end of September, so, you’ve got peak summer conditions, so, I guess therefore it was not dissimilar to Australia in that regard.
LP: Yes, in that regard it was.
JM: And how, how did the training go over there, was there?
LP: Oh yes, It went very well,
JM: And there were Canadian instructors presumably [unclear]
LP: Yes, I had Canadian instructors, we were training on the [unclear] aircraft, twin-engine aircraft and very nice aircraft.
JM: Right, and so, you did, you were flying with the instructor and then finally I presume you did your solo flight to get your wings?
LP: Yes. That’s right.
JM: Yeah. And how was that experience? What was your?
LP: Ah, it was wonderful, it went very well, went very well.
JM: Good. And that completely confirmed for you then that you were doing what you wanted to do.
LP: Oh, just, they wanted to because I topped the flying amongst our group. Then they wanted to send me to Prince Edward Island to go onto Sunderland flying boats and I, cause I wanted to get onto Spitfires and I went and saw the CO and set my foot and he more or less agreed that, alright, we’ll take away the Prince Edward Island job and commission went with that too but when I went to the other, when I went to the other service training school, the commission didn’t go with that posting [unclear] but we were posted to the Saint John, to a near field, Pennfield Ridge it was called and that was near Saint John, near the East Coast of Canada onto Venturas.
JM: Right.
LP: Now, these Venturas were twin-engine, like a big Hudson aircraft.
JM: Right.
LP: And, they were a bit heavy handed [laughs], heavy to handle but did alright but in the meantime they were, can I go on to what happened to Venturas?
JM: Yes, you can.
LP: Because they started off on, in England they were sent across, on operations and the first sortie over the English Channel into France that was then [unclear] two boxes of six and one Ventura came back out of the tour. Now, what really happened was normally was daylight bombing and normally bombing between ten and fifteen thousand feet because we were after the V1 sites mainly then [unclear] hours but normally we had a fighter escort Spitfires and Hurricanes which would be up about twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet looking after us but they, the escort didn’t turn up, so the German fighters had a pretty good
JM: Picnic.
LP: Pretty good go at the Venturas.
JM: Venturas
LP: And that’s why after we got to England we did a conversion onto Mitchells, B-25s,
JM: Right. Ok, so.
LP: We’re getting ahead of.
JM: We just try, I find it easier if we can sort of keep it in sequence in that way, bearing in mind sort of when other people are listening, you know, at other times, it makes it a little bit simpler for them. But that’s not say that if you suddenly think of something we can’t accommodate that because it’s better to get it all. But, so, the Venturas, so you were training on these Venturas and at Pennfield Ridge, and then, as well as that, you followed that on with some about a month and a bit at Yarmouth.
LP: That’s right, at Yarmouth, in, we had to cross the Bay of Fundy to go down to, Yarmouth was still in Canada. There is a Yarmouth in England too.
JM: Yes, that’s why
LP: That’s why my parents thought that’s we’re gone to.
JM: Yes, that’s why a bit, wanting to just clarify what that, yeah, so, there’s Yarmouth in Canada and so, what did you do down in Yarmouth, more Ventura training or?
LP: Yes, more Ventura training.
JM: Ventura training. So, did you actually crew up at this point?
LP: Yes, when we got to Pennfield Ridge we crewed up.
JM: You crewed up there. So, how many because I’m totally unfamiliar with the Ventura, how many were on your crew on a Ventura?
LP: I had to choose a pilot and an observer who was not a pilot, a navigator and bomb aimer. And wireless air gunner and straight gunner.
JM: So, in terms of a Ventura, is it like, did they have, was it like a mid-upper gunner or rear gunner or?
LP: Mid-upper gunner.
JM: A mid-upper gunner. Right, ok. And
LP: Oh, sorry, it was only the straight air gunner was on the Mitchell and he was on one of those gun positions [unclear] down below
JM: Oh, like, down below
LP: Down below and underneath
JM: A lower, right
LP: The Ventura didn’t, it only had the top turret.
JM: Top turret, right. So what did wireless operator run that as well as the radio?
LP: As a gunner
JM: As a gunner
LP: As a gunner, and
JM: Wireless
LP: Wireless man, too.
JM: Wireless, right, ok. So, you had one, two, three, four, five crew on your Ventura.
LP: Ehm, one, two, three, four, actually, three, four because we didn’t have the straight air gunner.
JM: So you had a pilot, observer, navigator
LP: Who was all, observer, navigator was all, all one
JM: All the one, ok. So, pilot, navigator, observer, bomb aimer and wireless air gunner.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes. Ok. And so, how did you go about your selection of your crew? Did
LP: They were all brought into the hall and we’d just say, would you like to come with me and you’d pick somebody if they were agreeable and that was it.
JM: And were they all, what nationalities were they?
LP: My observer, who was also the
JM: Navigator
LP: Navigator, was a New Zealander.
JM: Right.
LP: There’s with him and the straight air gunner, no, not the straight air gunner, the wireless air gunner
JM: Wireless.
LP: Was a Canadian
JM: Right. And bomb aimer?
LP: That was the observer’s job also. The observer was a navigator and bomb aimer.
JM: And what was he? Ah, he was New Zealander.
LP: He was a New Zealander and the wireless air gunner was a Canadian.
JM: And, so, that was your crew, you went then as a crew to Yarmouth.
LP: To Yarmouth.
JM: And did your additional training
LP: Yes.
JM: In Yarmouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: So then you got after that, any particular memories that, any particular experiences any of these training flights that stand out, any near misses or any interesting visit, interesting side trips as a result of [laughs]?
LP: Not really. I was lucky, the Venturas had the most powerful engine going at the time in the Air Force at two thousand horse power, a radial engine, and had a habit of catching on fire. Luckily I didn’t have that experience myself but we did a lot of formation flying at Yarmouth too, and we’d go out, ehm, select one doing the [unclear] for about half an hour and then change over so. The [unclear] Grant-Suttie was the captain of the leading aircraft I was formating on him and he had an engine failure and we were on a steep turn at the time and I, because he reduced speed because of the engine failure, I pulled off, I suppose I could so but our, my left wingtip hit his tail plane and my left wingtip came up like that, bent right up
JM: Bent right up
LP: Bent right up and of course when I landed and they asked about the other aircraft, the other aircraft, alright, I said, as far as I know, yes, Captain, I’m [unclear], he’s still ok, and I saw him land then and never got into any trouble, I don’t know whether he got into any trouble enough but
JM: But still the engine failed, I mean.
LP: The engine failed and it was down that they weren’t very good engines.
JM: Gosh, well that was an experience to
LP: Yeah, that was an experience.
JM: And again sort of required your resources to manage your way out of it, so.
LP: When you’re in a [unclear] like that and he wants to bank further because the engine fails
JM: So, probably more than forty-five degrees you’re talking about, judging by the position of your hands there, yes.
LP: Is very, I couldn’t do anything except try and sort of get my speed behind his, and we were very lucky that all this more or less still kept together and my wingtip hit his tail plane and, well, it squeezed up against, you say, because there wasn’t any big collision, we were so close anyhow.
JM: Close anyhow.
LP: So.
JM: Gosh! So, that was that experience and that was probably about the only one that you had.
LP: That’s the only one I had.
JP: Bird strike. The bird strike.
LP: Oh no. That’s way.
JM: That’s further down the track, is it? Ok.
LP: Way down the track. This is in the Air Force, I’m still training in the Air Force [laughs]
JM: We’re still, we’re back in Canada here. But whereabouts to sort of go to Halifax and uhm, I presume that’s probably but some of your experiences that’s at Yarmouth and then. So you moved both to Halifax and [unclear] and that was
LP: That was like a holding.
JM: Holding.
LP: Holding spot there and then we actually went by train down to New York
JM: Yes.
LP: To get on board the Queen Elizabeth. Right next door was the French one that was caught on fire.
JM: Fire.
LP: What was the name?
JP: Oh, that French ship. Yes, I remember that.
LP: About the same size as the Queen Elizabeth. Huge French.
JP: It wasn’t the Normandy?
LP: Normandy. That’s it! Good one! Is the Normandy, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: It spend quite a long time in the New York wharf area.
JM: But when you went down to New York is when you had a week’s leave and when you.
LP: We had the weeks’ leave from Dauphin. That was where I did the [unclear]
JM: Oh, from Dauphin, ok, so whilst you were in Dauphin that had you the week’s leave, right.
LP: That’s right, isn’t it?
JP: Yes.
LP: From Dauphin.
JM: Dauphin, so
LP: [unclear] I got my wings, it wasn’t [unclear], no, because we didn’t have leave and we came before we went on board the Queen Elisabeth. Some memory?
JP: I can’t remember.
LP: You can’t remember, I can’t remember.
JM: No, that’s alright, well that’s
LP: Got in touch with you when I went to New York. No.
JM: No, so was probably around August or something that you had your leave in ’42, went down from Dauphin down to New York so
LP: I don’t think we were allowed so when we were embarking or anything like that.
JM: Right, ok, so that and how did you find your week in New York?
LP: Well, initially.
JM: Yes, that initial.
LP: With June.
JM: Yes, with June.
LP: Oh, we had a lovely time. We saw
JM: So, you met June at the beginning of the leave as opposed to
LP: Yes
JM: So, you had the whole week together basically
JP: I was just having lunch and he was the guest of management and I was guest of management.
JM: Guest of management, yes, no, but it was basically towards the, more as at the start of his leave so you then had a week, more or less a week together. Oh, that was wonderful.
LP: No, not all the time. But I went down to this hotel called [unclear] and the other one, he got his wings too, and we both went to this hotel Edison in New York because we could have two meals for the price of one [laughs]. And, oh, we were looking forward to it, we weren’t flush then.
JM: Oh, that’s right. Exactly, you were payed.
LP: And that’s when June sorted a group of airmen and said, oh, I’ll pick him.
JP: Pick him [laughs].
LP: So it’s all her fault.
JM: It’s all her fault, that’s right. And so, I guess, how long had you been in New York at that stage? June, you had some idea?
JP: Oh, I’d only been in New York probably about a year.
JM: A Year. But still at least you had some knowledge, say you were able to take
LP: You were fifteen, didn’t you?
JP: Fifteen, going, closer to sixteen.
LP: Ah, were you?
JP: Much closer to sixteen. Yes.
LP: June was about the, she was more of us in charge of the other girls going over
JP: That’s right.
LP: And she did three years, they been and she’s been living in New York about a year.
JM: A levels, you did your A levels.
JP: I did the leaving that took everybody four years, I did it in fifteen months.
JM: My Goodness me!
JP: And how I did it was that, where I was as a like a primary school but we had, the older ones, we had a separate cottage and this cottage, these lovely ladies would come and
LP: The Gool [?] Foundation
JP: The Gool [?] Foundation and they’d come and you know they talked me up when I wanted to do my homework for night now where was I? Uhm, what was I about to tell you?
JM: Well, we were just saying that you had, you’d been there about twelve months so that you had some idea about, you know, where to take Lorrie and
JP: Where to take Lorrie and everything and they just sort of got somehow round that we got in touch with each other
LP: When? After.
JP: I don’t know how we did it, whether it’s through my mother.
LP: No, no, no, I happened to be, this is after a two year period after I got to England.
JM: England.
LP: When we first left each other, I think I wrote one letter saying how lovely
JM: [unclear]
LP: I got one letter back, nothing for two years, I happened to be on leave in London and [unclear] officer by then and reading the paper and there was a little part in the paper that said, a lot of these girls were returning as they had been evacuated and gave the address of the headquarters there and I thought, oh, I might go, see if June [unclear] maybe and maybe I might pop in and see and she happened to be there at the headquarters when I popped in.
JM: At that particular time that you went and visited. How a coincidence.
JP: I was getting my papers to get on entertaining the troops had to join ENSO, which was Entertainments National Service Association.
LP: Join the straight, part of a straight play.
JP: Part of a straight play. And, you know I just had this, getting all this information and when Lorrie walked into the building and here you go.
JM: Well, there you go!
JP: Meant to be.
JM: Meant to be, that’s right. And so you became part of the entertainment, troop entertainment.
JP: Yes, I was always in, so, I went to a theatre school as a child through [unclear] and then we went to New York and then I had a very good, I had the best drama teacher in the world at that time called Frances Robinson-Duff and she gave me a free scholarship to attend her school and from there, well, I went back to England, the best way for me to use what I knew in theatre was to join the Entertainment National Service Association, which was a group that entertained troops in straight plays and things like that all over England and Scotland.
LP: You went up to the Orkneys at that time.
JM: Gosh! Yeah, so you, well.
JP: Unfortunately everybody would have been in the newspaper and I would have been in the [unclear] but Noel Coward who was like in charge of us, he was very conscious of keeping our privacy, he didn’t want that for us so he stopped that otherwise I would have had, you know, newspapers galore on what I was doing. It’s a shame.
LP: If June had stayed on , Noel Coward would have made sure that she had a good part.
JM: Gosh!
JP: No, he was like a father to me. Was fabulous.
JM: Amazing, yeah. Ok, we’ll come back to that because that obviously fits in with the story a bit further down the track, uhm, at the moment we just got you into England [laughs]
LP: Queen Elisabeth [unclear], because no escort at all
JM: You had no escort for [unclear], no.
LP: And one night, the Queen did a very quick, one hundred and eighty, three hundred and sixty degree turn because they knew there was a submarine, they were told there was a submarine after them, so I’m glad they had plenty of speed.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So you just did a massive turn around, you didn’t go by, there was one, I must check that, yes, there was one trip that actually went via Greenland. But because again a submarine concerns so did you either on this, on the Elisabeth did you meet, some of the chaps did watchers, did you do any, bridge watches or?
LP: Not on the Queen Elisabeth. But going from Australia to San Francisco, they loaded up guns and [unclear] as well because the war, looked like the Japanese could have come down from there on our way.
JM: But you didn’t do any bridge watch, some of the chaps did bridge watchers from the bridge. But no, so you just did some gunnery work, gunnery preparations on that over to San Fran, right, ok. So you ended up, from Halifax you ended Myles Standish, Bournemouth.
LP: Myles Standish, wasn’t that?
JM: That’s the departure before you went to
LP: Boston, wasn’t it?
JM: That be Boston, yeah, when you got onto the Elisabeth.
LP: Boston, we were held there for a few days and then went to New York onto the Queen Elisabeth.
JM: Yes, just, and so then into Bournemouth.
LP: Yes, held there for quite a while.
JM: About nearly two months basically in Bournemouth, so what sort of things were you doing in Bournemouth?
LP: Mainly parade and get a sport but we were bombed here.
JM: Really?
LP: We were bombed from the low level Focke Wulf, they got under the radar, they just fly over the water and it was a Sunday. If it hadn’t been a Sunday, half of us wouldn’t have been here because the parade ground was bombed. [unclear] my friend there, he got, [unclear] damaged, one thing or another, quite a few killed, civilians were killed at Bournemouth. Sunday the hotel was bombed, they couldn’t, they didn’t rescue anybody out there for a couple of days or two but they were having a great old time down the cellars [laughs].
JM: Down the cellars, well, at least they were safe, I suppose. And so, did your crew that you had been with, your New Zealander, your Canadian, they were all, they came across with you together on the plane, on the boat to Europe? And you’re at Bournemouth together?
LP: Yes, yes, no, I may have, my memory, I’m not too sure now whether it was just my observer and myself together and the wireless air gunner and the straight air gunner, we might have got together after the conversion onto Mitchells, I can’t quite remember that now.
JM: That’s alright, that’s ok. And.
LP: So, after we went after to Bicester.
JM: Towards had, no had two western first?
LP: Sorry?
JM: Tour western? Two western?
LP: Yeah, that’s right.
JM: Two western?
LP: Close to Bicester.
JM: Yeah well, in your entry you had two western then Bicester.
LP: Conversion onto the Mitchells [unclear].
JM: Mitchells.
LP: Two Western.
JM: And how did you find the difference between the Mitchell and the Ventura?
LP: Ah, beautiful aircraft, compared to the Ventura there’s no, hard to compare, the Mitchell was a beautiful aircraft.
JM: It was.
LP: I got a good one too, no, the aircraft varied but mine
JM: There were still two engine, weren’t they?
LP: Still two engines, yes.
JM: Yes. And what, you say they were beautiful aircraft, in what way?
LP: Well, we did a lot of formation flying again there and they were very responsive, very steady, fully aerobatic, not that we did any aerobatics with a bomber but they were capable of doing it. And Liberator, do you know the Liberator at all?
JM: No, not really, no.
LP: That’s a four engine.
JM: Four engine. Had another American one.
LP: The same that made the Liberator
JM: That made the Liberator
LP: Made the Mitchell
JM: Mitchell.
LP: And they are very similar, very similar. Matter of fact, those that went on to Liberators first went on to Mitchells to get the feel. Must show you, there probably a bit out of order but.
JM: Well how about we come back to that later on.
LP: Yeah, we’ll getting a bit thirsty
JM: Oh, ok, we will have a little bit of a.
LP: I mean, you, you must.
JM: No, no, I’m fine but we will just pause while you. We shall just continue on now with Lorrie has just shown me the book that Tony Vine has written on the history of the group of
LP: Group 20
JM: 20 course at Narromine.
LP: There were 50 of us.
JM: 50, so I’ll come, so I’ve seen the chapter on Lorrie which I will come back to afterwards. So, you were at
LP: [unclear]
JM: At Bournemouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: Sorry, then you went to Two Western and you were onto your Mitchell training here now.
LP: Yes, conversion onto.
JM: Yes, so, do you remember your crew there?
LP: Same.
JM: Same. Did you pick up an extra chap now?
LP: That’s where I think where I got the straight gunner, which was Starkey, he was another Canadian.
JM: Another Canadian.
LP: So I finished up with a New Zealander and two Canadians.
JM: Yeah, right, ok, and so from there, any particular experiences that come to mind when you were doing your conversion to your Mitchells?
LP: No, I think they, just the instructors started climbing up to twenty thousand feet and he wanted to demonstrate without our oxygen masks on and most of the chaps sort of passed out but I was very whizzy but I didn’t actually pass out. But, that’s one of, just off the top of my head, [laughs] not worth mentioning really.
JM: Right. Still showed you what would happen if you
LP: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask.
JM: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask, that’s right. So from there, uhm, off to Fulsome
LP: Swanton Morley?
JM: No, Folsom, briefly to start only three days, so, it was just a transit by the looks of the dates and from there Swanton Morley, so, Swanton Morley was you first posting, that was your when you were posted to 226 Squadron.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yeah, so this was.
LP: Which is an RAF Squadron.
JM: An RAF Squadron, yes, that’s right. And so from, so you arrived at 226 in August ’43.
LP: That’d be right.
JM: August ’43, August ’43, ok and that’s when you started your operational activities?
LP: Yes, from Swanton Morley.
JM: Yes, ok and so, uhm, so mostly your ops were over Northern France, sort of?
LP: Yes, northern France, Holland and, mainly on the V1 sites, we didn’t know, they didn’t tell us what we were actually bombing, cause a big secret at the time. It just what they called a V1 bombing and nothing else, other things too but because these launching sites were right on the coast, crossing over, the flak was very heavy, just hop in and hop out as quickly as you could, drop your bombs.
JM: And so here you had, how many, need to go back to your, we go to the
LP: Operations?
JM: Operations, here, what sort of missions, ops?
LP: Well, as I was saying, they were mainly V1 we were
JM: V1.
LP: We were doing daylight bombings.
JM: Daylight bombings, yes, good, ok, so, any, how many times, do you have?
LP: Thirty ops was a tour.
JM: A tour, yes, that’s alright.
LP: A tour and at the end of the thirty ops I was asked to, would I do another ten ops, which I volunteered to do.
JM: Yes. So, that’s your assessments there, September, yes, so your first ops, your first ops started on the 19th of September basically by the looks of that and through there, lots of flights in between time affiliation flying and then November you really started doing, you really started into the ops, that’s 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, yep, 40th operation cooling [?]. So, what’s, any particular ops stand out in terms of, uhm, where, you know, little bit of flak here, we see in January, cloud over target did not bomb, so, French coast, cloud, what sort of, what sort of memories do you have of those ops there?
LP: There, only the amount of flak that was put up to just like the black cloud [unclear]
JM: Black cloud.
LP: And I got hit quite, my observer got shrapnel in his knee from the flak and my straight air gunner, he was up in the top turret and he, quite a big thing hit him behind but luckily it was the flat end that hit him, if it would have been the sharp end the side of, he probably would have been
JM: He probably would have been into trouble.
LP: Yes. Luckily the captain’s seat had armoured plating about that thick [unclear] at the back
JM: Right, so you were reasonably protected from.
LP: Yes, and we always wore a normal helmet, not helmet, see, metal hat, you know, we called it, we didn’t wear a cap so
JM: No, no.
LP: But, the ordinary ground soldiers a metal thing because of the flak, it might help us if a bit of metal came in.
JM: That’s right, and the injuries of those two chaps sustained, were they?
LP: They were in hospital
JM: They were in hospital, I say, it didn’t cause them to miss any ops or one or two ops that you had a substitute crew for or?
LP: No. [unclear]
JM: No, they didn’t miss
LP: We kept the same crew all the way through.
JM: All the way through, right, ok. And, did you have escorts? You said there was lots of flak, so did you still have escorts to provide you a bit of protection or?
LP: Well, as I said, the escorts were [unclear] fighters up to twenty thousand feet, we were bombing between ten thousand and fifteen thousand feet. Daylight bombing and so the escorts could see us from, but that be about ten or fifteen thousand feet
JM: Between you
LP: Between us and if any German fighters showed up they, with the height advantage,
JM: They would be able to come in down over the top of them and try to pick them off
LP: Yes. Keep them. They were herding us along quite nicely. But unlucky with that first Venturas when they didn’t show up and they eleven out of twelve were shot down.
JM: That’s right. So, how bigger Squadron was 226?
LP: It was quite a big squadron and there were about three or four at different stations, airfields, and for instance this called Halliday, was when I met June at the hotel, he was at another airfield, I can’t remember the name of it now, about three or four, there was even a Polish squadron, they made part of our wing, what they called our wing, and they were dreadful in that, they didn’t believe in, they flew straight in and low [laughs] all the time, because, you know, we were told, and it’s pretty true, that if you kept on a straight level flight for ten seconds or a little bit more than ten seconds, without changing your course or your height, you‘re bound to be knocked down. So we did a lot of course changing and height changing.
JM: That’s right. And whilst you were at the base there, uhm, what, at Swanton Morley, you would have some leave, what sort of things did you do whilst you were on leave at Swanton Morley?
LP: We were lucky that there was an organisation that, I’m trying to think of the organisation there that offered to take you into different homes in different parts of England and myself and a good friend of mine, Jack Barrel [?], who is another pilot, we both decided on going up to the Lake District and we loved it, we met a magnificent family up there, he was a soldier from World War I and he at the Battle of the Somme he had a leg shot off and his wife was a lovely Hewardson missy, Hewardson.
JP: They were lovely people.
LP: And that’s where we went up for our honeymoon, up to Kendal, Lake District, and we went and visited them, we just stayed at that hotel at Kendal in Lake District.
JM: Right. Gosh! And did you get back to them a couple of times?
LP: Yes, yes.
JM: So whilst you were at Swanton Morley, so having made the contact with this family, the Hewardsons, did you say it was?
LP: Hewardsons.
JM: Hewardsons, yes. And they, so you then went back.
LP: Very much [unclear] like part of the family up there. Made us very welcome, looked after us magnificently.
JM: Yes, yes, it’s interesting how these bonds did form and how much someone else has commented to me that you know how what an unknown contribution those families really made because of the support and the care that they gave, the service chaps was.
JP: It was amazing.
LP: Of course, something like Miss Macdonald and something about [unclear] and somewhere on the [unclear], was quite nice people, didn’t know them at all but that’s what the organisation was called.
JM: Right, so then you continued to
LP: We left Swanton Morley and went down to Camberley in tents. We were just about to go, D-Day was just about to come up.
JM: Yes, that’s what I’m going to say. What about D-Day, yes?
LP: Well, actually I just finished my tour, they called it, there’s a tour and a half but they called two tours tour because it went on to the extra ten ones, so I was on leave on D-Day.
JM: Right.
LP: In London I think.
JM: Right.
LP: But I then went on to the second [unclear] communication Squadron from there.
JM: Right. Right. So, so you finished your tour at, in beginning of June, before June basically, wasn’t it? It’s the tour the eleventh, that’s May 23, was basically the last op you did there? That when you and then you had your, you’ve been given your assessment on the 11th of June, which of course is after D-Day, so that’s why you were on leave for, well, on D-Day, so, yeah. So, you went, where did you have your leave? Were you down in London or were you up, up north?
LP: London, London on D-Day.
JM: Right, right. And were you in London at that point, June, or?
JP: I think so.
LP: Must have been.
JP: I must have been, yeah. Yes, I must have been, yes. We must have been together.
LP: I don’t know whether you had come back from America at that stage, do you remember what month it was that you came back? It wasn’t, I think it was after June that we met up again.
JP: We had a patch of two years so we didn’t see each other.
LP: Yes.
JM: Right, right, ok. So, could have been as part of that time there. Yes.
LP: Because I know what I mean, we got married on January the 4th, I remember that.
JP: 1945.
JM: Right.
LP: 1945.
JM: January 4th 1945 we were married.
LP: And we weren’t, it took a while before I [unclear] enough courage to ask her to marry me [laughs].
JP: Yes. And we were [unclear] together like three months before that. And before that I was in, I must have been in America.
JM: Yes, yes, yes.
LP: And I was at, based at Northolt.
JM: Yes. Because you, in June you switched to Ansons so did you do a conversion course to the Ansons or was it similar to, from the?
LP: No, hardly necessary. Just another [unclear], the two on the Ansons, the Anson was twin engine, but is only used as a communication aircraft really.
JM: Right, ok, so this was the start of your other Squadron posting, was it?
LP: Yes.
JM: And what was that Squadron called?
LP: 2nd TAF communications squadron.
JM: Right, and so that was Northolt.
LP: They had [unclear]
JM: Yeah, ok. So, that was. So actually you were at 226 moved to Hartford Bridge from Swanton Morley.
LP: Yes, that’s right, yes, that’s right.
JM: So, you’re still flying there, you’re still flying ops at that stage.
LP: Yeah.
JM: It’s just that you change bases there.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yeah, ok. So, with the TAF on communication, what was that involving?
LP: Mainly, flying quite higher people from on aerodrome to the other. Ten days after D-Day I was flying across the Channel with generals and
JM: You were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters.
LP: Yeah, but [unclear] you’re getting too far ahead, June.
JP: Am I? Ah, but that’s what you were doing.
LP: But we were doing a lot of work based in Northolt, flying to different airfields in England, mainly carrying VIPs from one place to the other, carrying some mail from one place to the other, but I think I ran about the tenth, ten days after D-Day which would be, what, 16th? I was flying across the Channel with VIPs.
JM: Right.
LP: And then shortly after the whole communication squadron went across [unclear] and we were based in the beachhead, close to the beachhead, beachhead.
JM: Right. So, that was, yeah, so you were in France and then Belgium. So, from, in August, you had one month in France.
LP: Yeah.
JM: And then three months in Belgium.
LP: That’s right. Yeah. And during that three months, a part of, got three or four weeks, myself and two other pilots were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters and do take his majors up to frontline and get information back and bring that back too.
JM: Right, so. That, August, yes, so, looking at your logbook again, yes it doesn’t quite give us the details it, just tells that you went like in August you went to a whole pile of interesting, Elson [?], Chartres and in another flight you had Reims, Saint Mo [?] and return, so you were obviously visiting forward posts in there to pick up information and then drop staff and that sort of thing there, so, yes, how was that as an experience compared to your fighting operation shall we call?
LP: It is virtually called a rest period, rest period really but we were open to enemy attack at any time.
JM: Did you have any escorts at that time? How many of you were, you just a single plane?
LP: A single plane.
JM: A single plane, so didn’t have any escort or anything like that. You and your rescue were on your own resources in terms of keeping watch for anything.
LP: Yes, well, I didn’t have a crew then.
JM: Oh, ok, you were only.
LP: When I left the squadron, finished the operations, that was the end of the crew.
JM: Right, ok.
LP: So, it was just you.
LP: And other pilots, they were all.
JM: Just a mix of second pilots, just like a two, two men crew running.
LP: Well, wasn’t even a two men crew. We were flying lighter aircraft and it was the one crew flying the passengers virtually.
JM: Oh, ok, so you didn’t actually even have like a second pilot or anything, was just you as the pilot and the passengers that you were ferrying.
LP: Even the Anson which was twin engine thing, you just flew that by yourself. I even accepted that the time I had Prince Bernard [?] in Canada he, we were in Brussels at the time, and he wanted to go to Eindhoven and I was chosen to fly him there in the Anson and he and his couple of aids there and general, a couple of generals there and they sat down in the back and he wanted to sit up alongside of me and Prince Bernard [?] and took off and the old Anson in those days, you had to wind the undercarriage up and it took off and he said, oh, I’ll do that and he wound the undercarriage up for me [laughs]. Very nice chap.
JM: And did you ever meet Montgomery?
LP: I can’t say that I actually met him. No, it’s a wonder I didn’t because as I say there were three of us with these light aircraft attached to his headquarters and one Sunday morning, it must have been a Sunday morning and the English Townsend, Johnny Townsend, were having a bit of a rivalry amongst us and we went up, and we had a bit of a dogfight, you know, [unclear] treetop level and we were doing [unclear] and having a real good older, I won by the way because I and he admitted that I was coming inside him on the turns [unclear], we landed and very shortly after there was a VIP attached to Montgomery that came up and said: ‘What have [unclear] I had a lot of trouble, you’re in a lot of trouble because there was, Montgomery was very religious type of chap and he was carrying out the church parade and of course we were flying [laughs].
JM: The church creating a racket.
LP: And disturbed his church service and we weren’t very popular then [laughs].
JM: Oh dear, oh dear.
LP: So, that’s one incident that happened.
JM: And so, it was quite a different experience than for you to be doing.
LP: We [unclear] as a rest period, weren’t nearly in so much danger really, except we often had to keep our eyes open all the time because we were as far as the aircraft went, we were very much on top of the Germans, from D-Day on the German Air Force didn’t trouble us very much.
JM: So, what, you had quite a number of flights in that capacity. So you went through until December ’44 was the end of Belgium and then from there you were down to Brighton and obviously you had some leave at that point because if you then went and got married in January, beginning of January ’45, your time in Brighton was December ’44 to February ’45 so you had some leave and you got married. Where were you married, in London?
LP: Yes. West Hampstead, wasn’t it?
JP: West Hampstead.
JM: Right. Right. Very good.
LP: And then we had the honeymoon up in Kendal, in the Lake District [laughs].
JM: Back with the Hewardsons again.
JP: Yes.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes, so that [unclear] marvellous and so, then you came back on the Rangitiki.
LP: Rangitiki, New Zealand ship.
JM: And did you come, you wouldn’t have come as well?
JP: [unclear] travelled.
JM: Travelled together.
JP: It was terrible because English [unclear] was good. But not the Australians. It was terrible.
JM: No.
LP; A well, I can tell you something about that. The Australians they couldn’t take their wireless back with them, but the New Zealanders did and when we got on board, and the New Zealanders were there [unclear] I was very hurt about that. Yes, would have made a big difference.
JP: [unclear] went first, it was several months before I was pregnant which he didn’t know about.
LP: I didn’t know about [unclear].
JP: Until I saw him again and it was terrible for me cause I had to wait in England for months.
LP: And June was very lucky to be allowed to travel being pregnant.
JM: Yes, well, there was a cut-off time before they.
JP: I got
LP: June had the influence of her grandfather.
JP: My grandfather he was head of the [unclear] shipping company.
JM: Oh, ok.
JP: And only through him did a get a birth I mean cause they’d never allow somebody expecting a baby on the ship anyway during the war.
JP: There were a couple of others that I know of that came through as pregnant, when they were pregnant but yes.
LP: But June was, Richard was born in October.
JP: Several months when I came.
LP: By the time we landed in Sydney, you were what? Seven months pregnant?
JP: Yes, seven months pregnant.
JM: Yes, seven months. And so then you were finally discharged, so you came through on the Rangitiki and then you were discharged
LP: October.
JM: October ’45. Yes. Just saying a bit of note here that is going to sort of jump out of sequence here which but when you were in 226, so you finished up in June, June ’44 we said, wasn’t it? That was your last op, yes, that was last op ’44, so were you, which plane were you on one plane only when you were in 226 or did you fly two or three different planes?
LP: No, only Mitchells, I only flew the Mitchells there and I had my own aircraft.
JM: You had your own aircraft, yes. No, it’s just that I noticed when I was looking up 226 to try and find out a little bit about 226 because I’d never come across 226 previously and one of the notes there said that there was a P for Peter, was a distinguished plane in 226 because it was the only Mitchell that completed one hundred ops. And I didn’t know whether you had ever flown on P for Peter or whether you would, if you’d happen to remember any one who might have flown on P for Peter.
LP: I can’t quite remember either. Does it tell you the aircraft?
JM: It probably does if I actually go back and have a look.
LP: When I was on leave towards the end in my tour, while you are on leave somebody else couldn’t fly your aircraft.
JM: Yes.
LP: And somebody did and the undercarriage didn’t come down when it went in to land, so he landed without a nose wheel, because Mitchells had nose wheels, he did a, he got his crew to go down the back and he finished his landing alone and he kept the nose off the ground all the time, got the ground crew to come out to pull the nose wheel struck down and they did but they didn’t [unclear] and when they were towing it away it came down
JM: Collapsed.
LP: It crashed. Oh, I was so annoyed. I did get another aircraft, a newer aircraft with newer engines, but it wasn’t nearly as nice to fly as the, H for Harry, I’ll bet you’ll find those.
JM: Well actually no, you, all you got is numbers so, I haven’t got any letters unfortunately.
LP: I’m sure there’s H for Harry anyhow.
JM: H for Harry, was it, there you go, no, there’s no letters, there’s just numbers, so. But anyway that’s alright.
LP: H, I’m sure there’s H, wasn’t Peter.
JM: Wasn’t Peter, right. So, back in, you were discharged as we said in December.
LP: October.
JM: October ’45, sorry, and because you arrived, which is a long time after you arrived back, cause you arrived back in March ’45 so.
LP: Yes, we refreshed the course [unclear]
JM: Oh, did you?
LP: Yes, on Oxford and then we went down to East Sale to do a pre endorsement on Beauforts.
JM: Right, because I suppose at that stage they were concerned about, you might have been going off to Asia, were you? For
JP: Yes.
LP: Yes, but before that I was going to go from the Beauforts on to Mosquitos at Williamtown.
JM: Right.
LP: And then the war ended.
JM: Ended.
LP: I wanted to get on to Mosquitos to [laughs]
JP: Yes. That was his love.
JM: Right.
LP: Yes, well I, yes, initially it was Spitfires but at the end, towards the end Mosquitos were lovely aircraft.
JM: Right, right. So did you actually fly?
LP: Mosquitos?
JM: No.
LP: I didn’t even get the posting to Williamtown.
JM: No, no.
LP: East Sale, you know where East Sale is?
JM: Yes, down Victoria.
LP: Victoria. That’s where the beau fighters were.
JM: Beau fighters were.
LP: No, not beau fighters, Beauforts, Beauforts.
JM: Beauforts, Beauforts. Right.
LP: And I did finish the course there and as I say the war ended then. [phone ringing] Thanks June.
JM: So, yes, so, well, that’s interesting that you had all that extra training [unclear]
LP: Excuse me, I gotta, he’s gonna call me back.
JM: Go back, so, then having done all these extra bits of training it never came to anything as such and the war ended so you were finally discharged in October ’45.
LP: Yes.
JM: And by which time June had arrived I assume, yes, yes.
LP: Yes, produced our son.
JM: Yes, your son.
JP: I had him at October 9th 1945.
JM: Right, right, so that was just before you were discharged, ok, uhm, and you were in Sydney here at that point.
JP: Yes.
LP: No, no, you were up at Burrell.
JP: Up at Burrell? Oh, sorry, I, when you said Sydney I meant Australia. Yes, I was up at Burrell.
LP: No, my parents were retired in a place up at Burrell, near [unclear], Gloucester Way.
JM: Ok, right, so there.
JP: So basically I was when I had the baby.
JM: Right, right, ok, so, that would have been a bit of a shock to the system and the whole country town there.
LP: It was, no telephone,
JP: I got on the phone and said to people in England and New York, I said, well look I’m up here, there’s no phone, no electricity, no toilet inside [unclear] [laughs].
JM: Dunny is down the back.
LP: Was a bit of a shock.
JP: [unclear]
LP: But I had told her what to expect.
JP: Oh yes, I wasn’t, you know, [unclear], I did it with fun.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: Was lovely, June settled in there beautifully.
JP: Oh yes, no, they were lovely to me. When I first arrived, of course being a little English girl, I was all white,
JM: White, that’s right.
JP: And just, they went, ah, [laughs], who’s this? Where does she come from? [laughs]
LP: And June could make up beautifully and she looked lovely anyhow but all the local girls [unclear]
JP: Who’s this? [laughs] Where did she come from?
JM: That’s right, yes.
JP: What planet? [laughs]
JM: Yes, exactly. And so, when did you start your chartered business? You showed
LP: The air taxi.
JM: Air taxi out of Bankstown.
LP: Yes.
JM: Was that the first thing you did after the war?
LP: The first job that I went into, organized setting up the air taxi. I met a chap, a country chap that he and his wife looking for something of interest, they were pretty well off and we got on very well together and we went down to Canberra and saw Dragford [?], who is a politician and he managed to get two light aircraft from the RAAF at Richmond. So we got hold of [unclear], picked one up, all [unclear] up nicely and start to operate from then.
JM: So did you, whereabouts in Sydney were you living at this point? Were you out near Bankstown or were you travelling out there?
LP: Yes, yes, there was another airport chap that I got to know, at Dauphin quite well, and his parents were living at Bankstown at the time
JM: Right.
LP: And they put us up there until their daughter was born and then
JM: Yeah, right.
JP: [unclear] was born.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Yes, very kind of them.
JM: Yes, yes. So, and you, I think you said three or four years did you have your charter business for?
LP: Ah, about a year and a half.
JM: Year and a half was it? Right.
LP: It was all, because before we went broke.
JM: Right.
JP: Did the guard man threaten to put out some cost, which would put us out of business?
LP: Yes, I said we’re gonna charge [unclear] in air mile
JP: And then they were gonna put it up. And that would have put us out of business. So we had to give it away.
LP: I interviewed [unclear] and Mr Butler, whose Butler Airlines at that stage, he thought we could combine quite well but as [unclear] couldn’t carry on. I even took a couple just to keep this going in, even took a couple of jobs with [unclear] I think it was and the other place, in George Street down the hill.
JM: Down the hill?
LP: Down the hill from George Street near central.
JM: Oh, Mark Foyes?
LP: No, in George Street.
JM: Oh, George Street.
LP: George Street, was a well known
JM: Hordens?
JP: Hordens? Anthony Hordens?
JM: Anthony Hordens?
LP: Anthony Hordens? Yes, I was in, I didn’t smoke, so I got a job in the smoking factory.
JM: Oh, in the tobacco section.
LP: Selling cigarettes and so. Because they always had their battered up tins of cigarettes, fifty, used to be the old fifty tins in those days. And any ones that got battered, they virtually sold them and at this stage I was keen to get into Qantas so I used to do, every week go down to the recruitment place in Qantas and with my tins, battered tins of cigarettes and the recruitment officer, he was a smoker and he bought these battered tins from me every week which is quite [unclear]
JM: Had a little bit of a discount.
LP: Yes, a big discount. So, I think that helped me get into Qantas.
JM: Nothing like a little bit of encouragement.
LP: Exactly, exactly.
JM: For favourable, to view your credentials favourably.
LP: Yes.
JM: Well I mean, you did have the right credentials, let’s face it, so, I mean, that, yes.
LP: There were so many ex Air Force men who wanted to get in
JM: Yes, but they had the pick of the whole field, really.
LP: They did, they did.
JM: So, yes, yes. So, you joined up into Qantas in?
LP: Yes, 28th of March I think it was, 1948.
JM: Right, ok. So, then you started, you were doing domestic or international?
LP: No, international. At the same I was applying to TAA at the same time and they both came and said, come and see us. But the idea of just flying up Sydney, Melbourne, Sydney, Melbourne didn’t really appeal to me.
JM: Taxi run.
LP: And Qantas sounded a lot nicer to me. Don’t say good for June I suppose. Because overseas
JM: Because overseas, periods of absence, yes.
LP: We got two, sometimes three up to Japan because the Korean War had started then. And we took on the Skymaster DC4 we used to fly up to there and the troops landed there and their air force up there, [unclear], and you’d be up to three weeks away, probably because you had to wait for [unclear] ex-service people.
JM: Right. And so how long were you with Qantas for?
LP: Thirty years.
JM: Thirty years. Gosh!
LP: Yes. Thirty years with Qantas.
JM: So, you would have seen quite a number of changes in that time. Obviously, with different planes and
LP: Start off on the DC3 and then went on to the Skymaster DC4, the Superconny, Super Constellation, wasn’t very long and then went on to the 707, Boeing 707 and then the last five years I was on the Jumbo 747.
JM: 747, yes. And have you flown on the A380s at all?
LP: Yes. I have, as passenger.
JM: As passenger. Yes, yes, well that would have been a change again. From the 747.
LP: Like going to [unclear] on the [unclear]. Amazing.
JM: That’s right. And so, once you retired from Qantas in ’78, anything, did you do anything in particular after?
LP: Oh yes, I bought a farm. [laughs]
JM: Bought a farm, right.
LP: Yes, that’s why we just sold, that’s why everything in the dining room down there is chock-a-block. My son also owns another property out in the country and he’s had a big shed that with nothing in there and that’s chock-a-block.
JP: That’s chock-a-block. We’ve got stuff out there that [unclear] what we’re gonna do.
LP: And my son also has a place at [unclear] that’s painting off
JP: That’s his [unclear]
JM: Oh, it’s beautiful.
LP: Two people there during the night.
JM: Oh my goodness!
LP: Great grandchildren.
JP: The artist just did that for us.
JM: Lovely!
JP: That’s the back of the house.
LP: We’ve got the others to go down there and paint it.
JM: Paint it, gosh!
LP: Oh, he’s got a beautiful place!
JP: Oh, it’s beautiful.
JM: And whereabouts is your farm?
LP: At Burrell, near [unclear].
JM: Oh, back in, family, back in where your parents were, so, right.
LP: What happened was in about 1977 [unclear], no ’74, was that Dad came, he said, why don’t you buy the land around us, it was off the sale but 160 acers all together and buy that and when we go, it looks like they were going to go fairly soon, we will leave you the little house and leave you, make a nice little property for you when we go. So that’s what we did. I’m just about to buy a lovely home at Lake Macquarie.
JM: Oh, ok.
LP: Wangi Wangi.
JM: Wangi Wangi, yes, yes.
LP: It’s a waterfront [unclear] a little pathway.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: People like to use the pathway on the other side of this bay and Dad came up with this offer and I can see we could help them at the same time and we changed over.
JM: Lovely. Oh, that’s a beautiful area up there I mean.
LP: It is.
JP: Magnificent.
LP: My mother came from this little township called Burrell, [unclear] Newcastle.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So, you had a very varied and interesting life.
LP: Very much so.
JM: And during, from your wartime experiences would you say there’s any one sequence of events that stays with you perhaps more than others or? One event or?
LP: Can’t say, can’t say. No, can’t say anything. I, we, the CO just before at the end of the tour recommended me for a DFC and then when he left the new CO came in, he called me and he said: ‘Oh, look, here’s this recommendation for a DFC, he said, well, I don’t know anything about you, but can you tell me what you did so we can write up a citation with, I said, I couldn’t think of anything, really [laughs]. And he said: ‘You write what you think might be the best thing in [unclear] the DFC, I said, oh, I thought is not a war to go on yet and I said, just leave it. And he wrote in and I got mentioned a special [unclear] left at then. But an AFC, an Air Force Cross I could have written down something and then because, you know, in formation with head boxers and six, I don’t know if you had, one leading aircraft had one formation on this side and then another one over there and then another one down here with two chaps, you’d have six aircraft all in one box of six, you’d re following me there?
JM: Yes, I am.
LP: And if you went up through cloud then, the idea was everybody to alter course 30 degrees for [unclear] and then climb up through the cloud and break through the clouds up and open it all the aircraft all over the place there and form one again [?]. Well, we had one chap, a fairly high air force official came to our squadron, he said, you know, the fighters, they four made up the fighters coming a lot closer and they form up and they go through the cloud in formation so the CO heard about that and he got a flight Lieutenant and said, give it a try and I’d hear about this and so the next time this went up through the cloud and I stuck in and kept formation all the way up through there and the other chap, that, this flight Lieutenant, he couldn’t do at the end the breakaway so I came up, oh, I was the only one that kept in formation. Well, [unclear] I could have written up something about that, an AFC. That’s the only other experience I can pass on to you.
JM: And what about down the years, did you manage to stay in touch with your New Zealand and Canadian crew chaps or?
LP: Not the Canadians, the, we went to a holiday, a bit of a holiday over in New Zealand and I met up with my observer then. Oh, by the way that business of flying through the clouds, after they found out that it could be done, after that all the operations, that they went up through cloud, we all formed up and went through in formation.
JM: You stayed in formation.
LP: After [unclear]
JM: So you brought about a change of procedure so to speak.
LP: Yes.
JM: And so the chap, Dennis, Dennis
LP: Lez Witham.
JM: Lez Witham.
LP: Lez Witham was my observer.
JM: Right.
LP: He was at Duneaton [?].
JM: And so you managed to keep in contact with him a little bit.
LP: A little bit.
JM: Post war.
LP: He became a, bonds, he was a
JM: Stock broker.
LP: Stock broker, yes, he became a stock broker.
JM: Right. Interesting.
LP: [unclear] when you get old, you can’t remember names [unclear].
JM: We’re talking about so long ago and so many thing have happened in the years [unclear] that’s quite, But the fact is that, you know, those experiences, the nitty gritties of the experiences stay with you and while some of the finer details may not necessarily be there, the whole overall experience is very much still part and parcel of you.
LP: But names of people [unclear] I mean you can’t and June is even worse than I am, terribly [unclear]. I told you about five times I don’t take milk in tea and I like milk in my coffee and but she asks me every time [unclear]
JM: Ah well, she is always planning for a change of taste, that’s what it is. [unclear] And did you keep in touch with any of, like training type people that you were trained with or did you make up, come because of being in Qantas you would have met up with a lot of service personnel, did?
LP: Not Air Force,
JM: Not Air Force.
LP: But of course, except my wireless air gunner, he married and we had a few [unclear] from her and sometime years ago now and she used to correspond a bit [unclear] and as I say, the observer, New Zealand observer we but the straight air gunner, no, he didn’t, didn’t hear anything from him. He was a character, he was only a short stocky Canadian, he was a real toughy [unclear], he was a good air gunner, [unclear] I liked the chap, I liked him.
JM: Well, that’s what you want, you want someone who is good at, everyone had to be good at their own jobs. That was part and parcel of the survival of the crew, I think, wasn’t it?
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, so, and that you may not necessarily be best of buddies but you were able to work together and have that cohesion that was required to be a good team, to survive.
LP: I never had any trouble with my crew at all so very good, very good.
JM: I know it’s hard work so I do appreciate you were sharing some memory, many memories with me.
LP: It’s hard work trying to remember [unclear] no, I enjoyed it because it brings to day sort of [unclear] quite a few [unclear].
JP: Lovely memories.
LP: I wish I had this Mitchell, we had the whole squadron in front of a Mitchell and where that photo is.
JM: It’s in one of your boxes. You’ll find it one day, it will turn.
LP: Tony Vine has got, he took a lot of photos
JM: Photos
JP: We’ve got a lot of boxes in there.
LP: Yes, but he took a lot of photos to
JM: To put into the book.
LP: Yes, to put into the book.
JM: Well, if nothing else, we might wrap up then if there is anything else, unless there’s anything else that you can think of, that you want to mention.
LP: Can you think of anything else, June?
JP: No, no.
JM: So, we’ll wrap it up as I say and I.
LP: June wants to bring up the bird strike business with the Qantas of course but.
JP: Oh, not really. We’ll leave it.
LP: Ok. You brought it up, you brought it up.
JP: I know, but, definitely yes.
LP: We had a bird strike on a Jumbo Jet taking off from Sydney and it looked like we lost two engines on one side, during take-off. Luckily, number 4 engine came good again, otherwise it looked we were going to ditch in Botany Bay.
JM: Interesting.
LP: We came good [unclear] jettison, we were going to Singapore at the time, with about 300 passengers on board. So, we dumped our fuel and while we were dumping our fuel, of course that takes some time, [unclear] on the ground and engineering and they prepared another aircraft while we were dumping to go on to London eventually and Philip, Prince Philip, he’s been a night.
JM: Have you been sick?
JP: Yes, he’s been in hospital. For two days.
LP: And actually in 1963 we had a basing with Qantas, a four year basing in London to fly from London to New York and in 1963 the Commonwealth Games were on and he opened them, but I flew from London to New York.
JM: Oh good!
LP: And there’s a photograph over there that he gave to me heading up on the flight deck landing into New York.
JM: Into New York, he was like that,
LP: Yes.
JM: Even though he was a naval man. But he, I think he was very interested in
LP: He had a helicopter, so I [unclear] fly a helicopter, I asked him, when I first saw him, was I asked him, how as it like to fly a helicopter, he said it was like rubbing your head in [unclear] or vice versa. He was very down to earth, very down to earth, Prince Philip.
JM: That’s interesting, yeah, so, obviously you landed successfully back in Sydney and by which time the plane, the new, the replacement plane was ready so you just walked off and did you then crew that, fly or did they say that you’d done enough hours, that you had exceeded your hours by the time?
LP: I’d flown him from, you’re right, I’d run out of flight time. Actually we’d flown from London to New York and then [unclear] arrival on the minute and they reported right back to the CO to London, couldn’t imagine, can’t imagine how I came from London to New York and arriving on schedule to the very minute.
JM: A feather in your cap then for managing to do that, yes, that was wonderful.
LP: So there’s one of the things that come to mind.
JM: Mind, yes, so, four years in London would have been an interesting experience, so you
JP: Ah, it was wonderful. It was really possibly one of the best times of our life, with young children [unclear] growing up.
LP: We had a lovely double story home in [unclear] Water,
JP: [unclear] Water.
LP: Near the park.
JP: Pardon?
LP: Near the park.
JP: Yes.
LP: What’s the name? Buckingham, not Buckingham.
JM: St James?
LP: Windsor Park.
JM: Windsor Park. Right.
JP: Near Windsor Park. Ah, it was absolutely beautiful. We had the most wonderful four year posting, and the kids were the right age, weren’t they?
LP: Yes.
JP: Just entering their teens.
LP: And we would take them on holiday, over to, over to Europe.
JM: Over to the continent. And around and they gave you a chance to see your family again, I presume.
JP: Oh yes. No, it was absolutely fantastic. Couldn’t have asked for a better posting than that. No, we loved that.
JM: Would have been a lovely time for four years.
LP: I could have extended that posting for another two years except that our son and daughter, our son was eighteen and our daughter was
JP: Sixteen or something.
LP: Sixteen or seventeen. I thought that if we stayed another two years, they’ve never gone back to Australia.
JP: Back to Australia. You know, they would have got [unclear]
JM: Yes.
LP: So we came back and of course my parents weren’t very well.
JM: Very well by that stage, so [unclear]
JP: We did the right thing because it was for your parents mainly. Yes, no, it was the right thing to do.
LP: Yes, so, all. No, could we offer you a bit of afternoon tea now?
JM: Thank you, we will just wrap up here though, and just formally say once again thank you Lorrie very much and June for your contributions, it’s been so thank you indeed.
LP: It’s lovely talking to somebody that’s interested.
Dublin Core
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APennL170622
Title
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Interview with Lawrence Penn
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:48:11 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
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2017-06-22
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Penn grew up in Australia and worked as a bank clerk before he volunteered for the Air Force. He flew 40 operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron. After the war he had his own air taxi company and also flew for Qantas.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Norfolk
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
226 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
bombing
crewing up
love and romance
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Hartford Bridge
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Turweston
rivalry
Second Tactical Air Force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Ventura
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1206/11779/PWilsonJS1601.2.jpg
747bd879cd48f91749b7814008d33422
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1206/11779/AWilsonJS160630.1.mp3
7e2477216099e63b9b0e50063ace01f3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wilson, James Stanley
J S Wilson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Wilson (1924, 1821217 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 626 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wilson, JS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JF: Hey there, I’m John Fisher and I’m talking with Mr. Stanley Wilson, who is ninety one and a half he tells me, and he lives in Wolverhampton. He’s originally Scottish as you’ll soon find out and he was in 626 Squadron having volunteered for the RAF when he was eighteen in around November 1942. Stanley, you had a rather rough initiation, didn’t you, with your first operation? What happened?
JSW: Yes, that’s quite correct. The first operation of course was unfortunately on Berlin and as we flew over the enemy territory, we were engaged by Fw 190. Information from the gunner, the rear gunner, pilot went to do a corkscrew and at that particular time we were hit by some shells. One came through my windscreen and through my seat, fortunately I wasn’t there at the time, having gone into a dive, of course I left my seat and finished up on the roof of the cockpit. After various corkscrews and assistance from the pilot, we evaded the, eventually evaded the fighters although severely damaged although no damage was done to the [unclear], elevator or anything so we pursued, carried on to the target. No more attacks were made that night. We arrived safely.
JF: What were your feelings when you, here you are, you’re a flight engineer, having just done three months in a flight engineer’s course, this is your first operation, what did you feel about that? As soon as you got over Berlin, there you are, being attacked?
JSW: It was frightening, because we had no idea what happens on an operation and all these things like fairy lights and flares, flashing round about, you wouldn’t realise these were anti-aircraft shells exploding.
JF: You were [unclear] green, they didn’t tell you too much.
JSW: They told us nothing, despite the fact that the pilot had been on a Second Dickey trip, he couldn’t explain much because the trip he was on was fairly quiet. So what we did see over the target was really frightening. Unbelievable you wonder how you can fly through all these flak, the anti-aircraft shells exploding and suchlike, but you can hear the shrapnel hitting the aircraft and bits and pieces where it explodes. What do you do? You carry on and hope for the best.
JF: So, how did you get back to base then?
JSW: Oh, no problem get back to base, fortunately there was no damage done to the aircraft as far as flying was concerned so we did do the ride back, safely, shaken and wondered what, is this what we are in for the future?
JF: So, you really thought, is this every night?
JSW: Yeah, this was expected, this was our initiation, do you get this every night?
JF: Oh dear, how old were you then? You weren’t very old, were you?
JSW: I’d just turned nineteen.
JF: God!
JSW: And my birthday was the first of January, first of November and that flight was somewhere in December, so, I can’t remember, I think it was the 24th, Christmas Eve.
JF: Oh dear! And base then was?
JSW: We were based at Wickenby at that particular time.
JF: Yeah. And of course this is in 626 Squadron.
JSW: This was 626 Squadron.
JF: Yeah.
JSW: Wickenby of course is something like ten miles outside Lincoln.
JF: On your second night, what happened? Stanley is consulting his logbook [laughs]. It’s a long time ago, it’s difficult to remember, isn’t it?
JSW: It is at all. [laughs] The second operation again was Berlin and quite a trip that time, entirely different to the first one even over the target, it was well lit up by searchlights and flares dropped from above, to enable the fighters to operate that night instead of anti-aircraft fire so although we could see the fighters flying about, we didn’t have any attacks and made a fairly safe journey back home. Did ever hope that at the end of that, all the other trips would be the same.
JF: Did you know why the fighters didn’t attack anybody or?
JSW: Oh, we could see the fighters attacking, yes, we could see them, we could see also see aircraft being shot down, we could also see the odd parachute coming out of the aircraft. And you could also see all the aircraft blowing up.
JF: Had you any experience of parachuting?
JSW: Never, never even taught how to parachute out.
JF: So you wouldn’t even know.
JSW: Well, we knew what to do, get out quickly and pull the cord.
JF: [laughs] So, you really no idea what that experience is?
JSW: [unclear] no idea at all what it’s like to parachute.
JF: So, did you very quickly become experienced of operations?
JSW: You soon get into the way of it, but up most in your mind. Is this my time tonight? Well I’ll be going back home tonight, there is always that thought in your mind, when you take off, by saying cheerio, so the thought is always there because at that particular time, roughly five weeks was the expected time on a Squadron. Well, when somebody tells you that the losses are fairly heavy that particular time, you begin to worry, you say, when will it happen?
JF: What about your parents, did they?
JSW: Unfortunately my parents didn’t know I was flying until they read it in the paper about the first operation and then of course then it was extreme worry all the time. Unfortunately I think that was one of the reasons that they both died before I was demobbed.
JF: Just worry.
JSW: Worry, yeah.
JF: So, do you remind the identification on your plane at all? What that was?
JSW: I can remember the number, only because it’s in my logbook.
JF: [laughs] and what is it?
JSW: This was a DV 171 K2. That was on that particular occasion. But of course, because of the damage to some of the aircraft, we never knew [unclear] was going and as being a new crew to the station you took all the old summer past sell-by date, the older ones until you were there for and did a few operations, that was when you were allocated, you know, one of the newer aircraft.
JF: Ah, and did you get one of those?
JSW: Oh yes, we did eventually, oh, yes, yes.
JF: So, how many operations did you do?
JSW: I did, we did thirty.
JF: You did thirty.
JSW: Yeah.
JF: Yeah, that’s good. And have you ever kept in touch with any of the rest of the crew?
JSW: Oh yes, the pilot and the navigator were Scottish and we used to meet once a year when I went back from Scotland we spent a day out, wives and the husbands, we spent just reminiscing.
JF: And what were their names?
JSW: The pilot was Jimmy Stewart
JF: As it would be [laughs]
JSW: And the navigator was Bill Meir. Jimmy Stewart came from Elgin and Bill Meir came from Motherall. I came from Coatbridge so we were all
JF: Yes, you’re not far away from each other.
JSW: Yes, we were not far away from each other. The rear gunner had a farm down in Taunton, Somerset, we did meet him very, very occasionally, kept in touch the mid upper gunner, Lane Smith, until he died on the Isle of Man a few years ago. I can’t say anymore of the rest because the bomb aimer lived in London and I think, emigrated to South Africa. The wireless operator, because we had problems with our original wireless operator, we finished up with spare [unclear] so we didn’t get to know them very well. And two of them were Australians, so they went back to Australia, so really it was the mid upper rear gunner, navigator, pilot and myself that kept in touch.
JF: Now, you were at the sort of, at the front end of the D-Day operations, weren’t you?
JSW: Yes.
JF: Tell us a bit about what you did and where you went.
JSW: Well, at that particular time, D-Day, we were on this special duty squadron, which was formed by number 1 Group and the purpose then was to mark the targets visually on moonlight nights only along the coast to disrupt the transport of troops, equipment etcetera. [unclear] camp, camps where the tanks were all spread out, offices where the senior officers were, so this was our contribution then to disrupt the transport of all the goods about along the coast, which stretched from the North of the Channel, from Calais right down to the Normandy beaches.
JF: They were totally different to bombing over Berlin I take it?
JSW: Oh, that was entirely different because we were only, at that particular time, this special duty squadron that was formed, we did nothing but drop flares. We went in at low level, visually mark the targets and then contacted the main Pathfinder force to mark the targets. We marked them with a certain coloured flares and informed the master bomber then to mark the target that we had already marked.
JF: And were there any really, really major targets that you were able to identify?
JSW: One in particular which is a book written about [unclear] Marne, which we marked properly but unfortunately there was a lack of communication between the master bomber and the rest of the Pathfinder force, there was a mix up there so that was one in particular.
JF: And what was you were marking, what was, tell us a bit about what it was?
JSW: Sorry?
JF: What was it you were marking?
JSW: Well, it could be if we take, let’s get this, Lyon. We marked motor works, was ammunition dumps, Reims ammunition dumps, Coburg gun positions
JF: This was fairly important.
JSW: These, yeah, these were all selected of course. Maintenon ammunition dumps, railway [unclear]
JF: Were you getting any resistance when you [unclear] cause you had to do low flying, did you?
JSW: Resistance, we had ground fire, quite a lot of ground fire and of course severe damage too. On many occasions we suffered. Can you stop that for a bit, I just.
JF: Stanley has some photographs here which is showing the bomb doors and the damage done to the bomb doors and also to the fuselage. How did that happen?
JSW: Well, we were struck by obviously ground fire which exploded the ammunition and blew out all the gunner’s ammunition and set the flares on fire. The aircraft went on fire, we were only at two thousand feet.
JF: How did you feel there cause although you were up in the
JSW: Well, we were smoked by, we were covered in smoke and suchlike and the instruction was, the pilot instructed the wireless operator and the mid upper gunner to, the pilot to make sure, and he said he would climb and enable us to bail out if it were necessary because at two thousand feet we couldn’t, so he got up to eight thousand feet and went into a dive, bomb doors open, the flames were put out by not just for the fire extinguisher by, also by the diving.
JF: So that was another lucky escape.
JSW: That was a lucky escape, so, that was it, we take home, come home.
JF: Yes, cause there was nothing you could do at that point.
JSW: We had already marked the target, that was no more because all our flares had gone and fired at an aircraft and that was it so we come home. But the target was successfully marked. Then we made our way home and had our cup of coffee [laughs]
JF: That was a relief.
JSW: Yes.
JF: Mainly because how did you get coffee [laughs]?
JSW: Ah, well, you see, this is it, when you go through your debriefing, the WAAFs are there with their coffee and the [unclear] is there with the rum, which you distilled with an eye dropper [laughs] and then we always had a debriefing after each raid. No matter where you went, you were always debriefed, very carefully and suchlike. But then we went back here and had your flying meal.
JF: And what did you do between tours, you know? You went on a pub occasionally on your weekends off when you got?
JSW: There was no such thing as weekends off, there were no such things as days off unless the weather was such that there was no flying. There was always something to do if there were ops, if you were free of ops on a particular night you may get the time off which if you are at Wickenby you are going to Lincoln and when we were at [unclear] we were into Grimsby. What do you do when you are going there? You look for the nearest pub you look for and also at some [unclear] where you can get something to eat and enjoy yourself, make the most of it because you never know when you will be back again.
JF: No, there’s no point. And what about comradeship on [unclear]?
JSW: Well, of course, six of us, we had problems with the wireless operator, the first wireless operator after the third operation disappeared from the squadron.
JF: Do you know why that was?
JSW: Yes, he lost his nerve, LMF. We then had a second operator, he lasted one raid, he [unclear] LMF. Then we had spare operators after that, we were very good. John [unclear] was an early man but he was an excellent wireless operator and another one was an Australian, he finished his tour with us, he’d only a few operations to do, he finished his tour with us and we had an Australian, [unclear], who was very good and he finished his operations with us. And then with the third one, and for the life [unclear] I can’t remember his second name was Johnny, he finished his tour with us. And then that was it.
JF: Was it something you said? [laughs]
JSW: [laughs] And, but the rest of us, the six of us stuck together, we went everywhere together. We didn’t know many other people, we were so close, even when we travelled, we travelled north and the train, Jimmy, Bill and I, obviously went to Edinburgh and then separated when we got there. But despite the fact that these two were officers first class, I travelled first class with them [unclear] then CO.
JF: That was quite a privilege.
JSW: Well, I’ll tell you. Yeah, that was it. So, we were very, very close together right until the day we parted. Because you aline each other, you’re dependent when you’re flying you’re so dependent on each other and we trusted each other, that was the most important thing, the trust. Jimmy was a good pilot, but we were all good.
JF: Was there a lot of banter?
JSW: No banter while we were flying,
JF: No.
JSW: It was silence. No, no, that was one thing, it was installed on us, there was no talk, unless it was necessary. Jimmy and I sitting next to each other, we did a lot of signs, if there was any problems we didn’t want to disrupt the [unclear] we knew what was wrong and we could.
JF: As flight engineer, what were your duties there on the plane?
JSW: Everything except fly the plane [laughs]. Well, what would you say, start up, everything that the pilot didn’t do, what the second pilot used to do, you could say anything except fly the plane although I was taught, Jimmy taught me how to fly the plane and did fly it on many occasions but not on operations. That was just as a safeguard if anything happened to him. At least we made people to fly home, not to land but to fly home and bail out. Things like that.
JF: So you never actually had to bail out at all.
JSW: Oh no, we were very fortunate, we always got back, well, yeah, we always got back home eventually.
JF: And did you, were you able to contact your parents then to say, hey, we’re home or?
JSW: Oh no, no, there was no, there was no telephone.
JF: Tell us, you could, telegrams
JSW: Well, first of all, in those days, my parents hadn’t their telephone, not many people had, but how do you contact them and send them a telegram? I didn’t want to do that because if the telegram boy comes to the door, they’re thinking of something else, they could hear on the radio, forty aircraft missing last night, they think, well, you know.
JF: Yeah, how did you feel then when you heard that sort of things because?
JSW: I’m afraid you get used to it and really, if you see the, so and so hasn’t come back from the squadron, you just say, oh dear, bad luck or else. That’s it, I’m afraid that’s the feeling you get. You know, you accept death as a normality. Terrible.
JF: Yeah, and when you are up in the air, over Berlin or somewhere, are you slightly sort of numbed or?
JSW: Oh no, no, no, because you’re concentrating on.
JF: Yeah.
JSW: Everybody’s watching.
JF: Yeah.
JSW: You’re on the lookout for everything, you’re watching for fighters.
JF: You’re detached from it really.
JSW: [unclear]
JF: Yeah.
JSW: You’re so busy, you’re watching for the enemy, you’re also watching your instruments, watching that everything’s alright. You have no time to think of anything about danger here.
JF: So, as the war ended, what were you doing then?
JSW: Oh, when I finished my tour, you’re sent on a, you’re given six months what they called screening but at the time I finished which was back in, I think it was August, September ’44, they had enough aircrew so they decided that those who had finished their tour may have to go to Japan but if necessary, and if necessary they would be trained as such but then we were sent to, most of the air crew was sent up to our receiving centre in Scotland and assessed, tried to give you another job, a ground job, because I was a flight engineer they thought they’d sent me on a mechanics course
JF: [unclear]
JSW: Which I finished up at Cosford. Well, that was eventually, but I didn’t know where I was going, I went home on leave and fortunately they forgot all about me and I was home on leave for two months and I got a telegram telling me to report to Digby, which is outside Lincoln. And for some time I worked in an engineer’s office sending reports into Bomber Command about the aircraft that were fit for flying etcetera etcetera. Then months later they decided I should go on a mechanics course, which I went to Cosford and spent doing my mechanics course I knew more about the aircraft than the engines that worked some of the [unclear] [laughs] and then I was posted to Suffolk, Graveley where there was a Lancaster squadron and I was in the office until I was demobbed.
JF: And what year was that?
JSW: I was demobbed in January ’47.
JF: And did you go back to your old job then or what did you do?
JSW: Oh yes, I returned to, because I was [unclear] my friend as an engineer and I volunteered, when I volunteered, part of the deal was they would take me back and I went back to my old company from the Air Force, that was in 1947, I became a foreman in 1948 and I decided I didn’t want cause I [unclear] my hands and stuff like that and I went on to the management.
JF: Just remind us what this company is.
JSW: It was Murray and Paterson, who were an engineering company. Manufacturing all, again steel works plant equipment.
JF: Yeah. And where was that based?
JSW: That was based in Coatbridge, my hometown. So, and I remained with them until 1952 and then I joined Harvard and Wolfs. And that was the engineering department in Wolfs, which slightly different, ship building. I started there as an inspector and but then in two years I was a foreman and then I became a superintendent in the engineering division. [unclear] three or four years after I joined them. And then I was headhunted to a company in Sheffield in 1961, I joined a company in Sheffield as [unclear] manager and remained with them until I, with the company until I retired in 1988, finishing off as an engineering technical director.
JF: Do you ever go back to the war and what happened and do you talk to people about it?
JSW: Yes, my daughter is connected with the education of children. I’ve been asked to go back and speak about the war time, living in the war and war service, I’ve done on several occasions at one or two of the schools.
JF: And the children, what sort of questions do they ask?
JSW: They are mostly interested in, of course children today you got to explain the difference in aircraft, some of them [unclear] and they think it’s police shells flying in the aircraft and you got to explain it to them, it’s very difficult to get them to understand that. Then you try to tell them about blackout and you explain it to them, it’s just like being in your bedroom and no lights on, and they can’t understand how you can walk about like that. It’s very difficult to get the children to understand. The older ones those I have spoken to those who were on [unclear] and they asked more questions about how does one feel about the killing of people and that type of, they’re more interested in killing of people.
JF: And what do you tell them?
JSW: Well, it’s, all I could say to them was we had to do that because if we hadn’t done what we did do, I wouldn’t be able to stand here speaking to them in a free manner. We would have been very restricted in our [unclear] and they accept that.
JF: Cause it is very difficult for children to understand that, doesn’t it? When I was a youngster nobody talked about the war. We didn’t hear anything about til years later.
JSW: Well that’s quite correct, because I can tell you this that when you research the subject my two daughters were, well the youngest one is twenty five, and the oldest one, the other one was thirty one, didn’t know I had been flying, until they were at that age. I’ve never spoken about it.
JF: I can understand it, my mother never spoke.
JSW: Never, never raised it and the people I worked with didn’t know. In fact, when I retired when I was 64, I said, some of the directors there didn’t even know I’d been in the Air Force. I’d never spoken about it then.
JF: Why didn’t you talk about it?
JSW: Well, it’s difficult to see, you feel
JF: Do you shut it out of your mind or?
JSW: You try to shut it out of your mind because for years afterwards I couldn’t sleep. I had nightmares, the thoughts and the things that happened and the more you think about it, the worse it becomes and then you start thinking about the killing of people, was it worth it? And of course, the feeling from the public after the war because of Churchill, the way he treated Bomber Harris and never referred to the bombing etcetera, despite the fact that he was the one who instructed us what to do, people were anti and that’s why one of the reasons why I never spoke about it because you would just create rouse and suchlike and that’s why at this moment of time I’ve been asked to speak at one or two of the Churchill’s things, whether the women ventureship, I refused to do it because I know some of them are anti bomber, they become involved in any discussion.
JF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose they can’t comprehend what the alternative would have been.
JSW: No, that’s the difficulty. Yeah.
JF: Yeah. How do you feel today? Should youngsters be told about all this thing, I know you [unclear]?
JSW: Yes, I do, I think youngsters should be told all about it but not the blood and guts of the thing, the reasons for it, I, this is something I hate to see on television, they won’t concentrate and show you dead bodies and sorts like, I said I think that’s totally unnecessary. Bu they should realise why we had these things, why we had to fight them,
JF: Would you do it again?
JSW: Yes, I would. Because, when you ask people would you do it again, well, you got to put the situation, if the situation was exactly the same, I would do it again.
JF: Stanley, thank you very much for your thoughts.
JSW: Pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Stanley Wilson
Creator
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John Fisher
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWilsonJS160630, PWilsonJS1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:30:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James Stanley Wilson remembers serving as a flight engineer on 626 Squadron during the war. Tells of his baptism of fire on his first operation to Berlin, when his aircraft was targeted by enemy fighters. Mentions marking targets on D-Day. Talks about comradeship among the crew members.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
France--Lyon
France--Reims
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1 Group
626 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
coping mechanism
fear
flight engineer
Fw 190
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF Wickenby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/674/10078/AArmstrongGR170720.2.mp3
55817c13ad0fb13379065a9f931fa4e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Armstrong, George Rex
G R Armstrong
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Rex Armstrong (1925 - 2019, 3225057). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 195 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Armstrong, GR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JW: Right, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is John Wells, the interviewee is Rex Armstrong. The interview is taking place at Mr Armstrong’s home at [redacted], Donaghadee. Also present are Mrs Elisabeth Armstrong and Mrs Helen Wells. The date is Thursday, the 20th of July 2017 and the time is 2, 14.20. Right, Rex, can I ask you to, well, thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed first of all, can I ask you tell me a little bit about your early life, where you were born and what you did before you?
RA: I was born in Belfast [unclear] fire station.
JW: Well, when were you born and what was your date of birth?
RA: We moved from Belfast to Donaghadee whenever I was four year old. Went to school in Donaghadee, the school was right on the seafront in Donaghadee there and when I got old enough, I wanted to get out to work and I went then to one of the early [unclear] in Belfast and I served my time in it and also whenever I got my time done, I went and worked in County Down Railway for a while and went then in to [unclear] worked my way [unclear] computer factory, making computers and I worked my way up into, to manager, a manager in it there with three factories and I was put in charge, well, eventually was put in charge of one of them, and I worked there until the place closed up eventually and I went and I worked in another place and making drums, tent [unclear], things like that.
JW: Was that before, at what stage, was that before the war or was that after you left the RAF?
RA: No, I went into the, I think the [unclear] the RAF, my brother I think, you know, I looked up to him, ‘cause he was doing the second tour of operations and I was only starting my first
JW: What was your brother’s name?
RA: Ted, Edward.
JW: So, Edward.
RA: Edward Armstrong.
JW: Edward Armstrong. Right.
RA: He was called after my father ‘cause he was older than me and he did two tours of operations.
JW: And your father, what did your father do?
RA: My father worked selling [unclear] cars, Vauxhall cars.
EA: He was in the RAF too. He was in the RAF.
JW: And--
RA: Then, when they were bombing Belfast, I was in the fire service and soon as the raid had finished, I was up in the fire service, Belfast told them to put the fires out.
EA: He was sixteen.
JW: And your father was a fireman?
RA: Father was a fire [unclear], I was a fireman too, I joined fire station, my grandfather was in charge of the station, that was just before the war.
EA: Joined up.
JW: So, can you tell me a little about how you came to join the RAF?
RA: Yeah. My brother was joined in the RAF and he did one tour of operation and I’d thought that I liked what he was doing so the day that I was eighteen, I went up to Belfast to join up and I joined up in the RAF and I was called up just about a month after, less than a month and I was called up and I went to England to London and started training there [unclear] and went from there to Wales that was where I did my training and I did a course and passed out and that and then was, went to another place in Lincolnshire and it was, it was mustering the crews and what you want? You’re in, in the aerodrome and you’re all lined up and marched in and whenever they said halt where you were, the pilot was just right at your right arm and he came down and he was from [unclear], he was from Bradford I think it was he was from and he said, hi, how are you, would you like to join the RAF? And [unclear] part of my aircrew? And he said, I said, yes, I’d like to join, and he said, where do you live? And I said, you wouldn’t know, wee village [unclear] Northern Ireland called Donaghadee, and he says, Donaghadee? And I said, yes, and he put his hand in his pocket and brought out this photograph and a photograph of Donaghadee and he would have been policeman and he was sent over to Northern Ireland on a course and he had this photograph down the harbour in Donaghadee and then so I, I liked him and joined up in his crew and we did the tour of operations at twenty raids and then you get a rest.
JW: Can you tell me a little about the process, you know, what was involved in a raid?
RA: [unclear] What was involved?
JW: Can you talk, have you any one that sticks out in your mind?
RA: I, can honestly and [unclear] did say I enjoyed it.
JW: Yeah.
RA: I think that being only eighteen years of age, you were still a wee boy there really but I did enjoy it.
JW: What was your, I mean, you were in a different aircraft, you weren’t always with the same aircrafts.
RA: I was always with Lancaster bombers.
JW: Lancaster. But not the same aircraft every time.
RA: Not the same aircraft, but that was what I was on. Lancasters, I did all me ops on Lancasters.
JW: Where did you operate from? What was your base?
RA: My base was, first base was Lincolnshire, the second place I think it was [unclear] place, [unclear] Midlands.
JW: Was Wratting Common, I believe.
RA: Wratting Common.
JW: In Essex.
RA: Yeah, that’s where I was at Wratting Common.
JW: How long were you there for?
RA: Pardon?
JW: How long were you there for?
RA: I was there for, I suppose doing a tour of operations, I was there for about nine months and whenever you do, when you do the twenty raids you’re rested and come home on leave for, I think it was, a fortnight and back again.
JW: I believe that you, what squadron were you on?
RA: Sorry?
JW: What squadron number were you on?
RA: 195.
JW: 195, yeah. Do you remember the names of your crew?
RA: Yes. [unclear] name was George, I [unclear]
EA: Just the names, he wants the names, Rex, whenever the time comes.
RA: George.
EA: Scooley, is that the only one you can remember?
RA: I’ve forgotten.
EA: Aye.
JW: He was the skipper.
EA: Mh?
JW: He was the skipper.
RA: George Scooley, his name, he was a policeman. Whenever I joined up as a crew, George Scooley was the captain and the pilot and whenever I joined up, you marched into the, you marched into the hangar and whenever you were called halt, guy who you’d be standing aside, that was gonna be your captain or crew man and he picked me and he asked me where I came from and I told him, I come from Northern Ireland, he said, whereabouts from Northern Ireland do you come from? And I said, I come from, I said, you wouldn’t know, a wee place called Donaghadee, he put his hand on his breast pocket uniform and pulled a photograph out, he says, you know, that was a photograph of Donaghadee, he had been over here on some course or other for the police.
JW: I believe you may, you were involved in the raid on Dresden, is that correct?
RA: [unclear]
EA: He didn’t hear you.
JW: Were you involved in the raids on Dresden?
EA: Dresden. He can’t hear you.
RA: That was, the raid on Dresden, that was, I think that was the worst raid that I’ve done and I’d done twenty altogether but Dresden was probably the worst.
JW: How, what was your, when were you told that you were going to raid Dresden?
RA: [unclear] sorry?
EA: He can’t hear you. Repeat.
JW: Yeah. Can you tell me more about the raid on Dresden?
RA: It was the worst raid that, there was an awful lot of bombs dropped and we dropped a lot of bombs too and-
EA: [unclear]
JW: What was it like looking down, could you see Dresden as you approached?
RA: Yes, you could. To me, it was two runs, [unclear] two runs ‘cause the full bomb load, and went in and dropped half the load and then once you flew over the line of where you bombed, turned round, come back in and dropped the other half. Dresden was probably one of the worst raids.
JW: Yeah. Were you, would, the briefing before Dresden, do you remember that?
RA: Vaguely, [unclear], forgotten all about but that was a big raid.
EA: [unclear]
JW: Yeah. Do you remember Operation Manna, in Holland, when you were dropping supplies to the Dutch?
RA: Yeah.
JW: Can you tell me anything about that?
RA: Yeah, that was quite enjoyable flying over Holland and dropping, dropping food to the Holland people ‘cause they were starving and we dropped food to them and that was it, we were flying over, and we were so low that the skipper said to me, what time is it? And I [unclear] gonna look at my watch, and he said, not there, there and we were looking level at the town clock and you don’t [unclear] look up or look down, just look out and there is the time, that was [unclear] enjoyable but.
JW: Do you have any stories from when you were dropping for Operation Manna, dropping cigarettes? I believe you had a story about black marketeers?
RA: Somebody had written out on the ground and written down [?] drop your cigarettes here.
JW: How many days did that last for? Did you do more than one sortie?
RA: [unclear] I think we did it for a week.
EA: [unclear]
JW: And I believe there was also another operation which was Operation Exodus which was
RA: Bringing prisoners, bringing people home from the war, yeah, I can remember that.
JW: That would be a happy one.
RA: Bringing prisoners of war back.
JW: Where did you go to pick yours up?
RA: Mh?
JW: Where did you pick your prisoners of war up from?
RA: I picked them up, I forget where it was, it was in France but we picked them up if I remember right [unclear] in Germany, bringing, I know when the war was over we, our own soldiers and [unclear] women we took them on a Cook’s Tour over Germany and to let them see what the place looked like.
JW: That was your own groundcrew.
RA: Mh-mh. Yeah, they were the first ones.
JW: And when were you demobbed then after, was this long after that?
RA: Demobbed, I suppose six months.
EA: Yes, I suppose six.
JW: A flight engineer’s position on a Lancaster, could you see out or were you in the dark most of the time?
RA: Yeah, I could see, no problem.
EA: [unclear]
JW: But you, could you see out, see where you were passing?
RA: Yeah, could see ahead.
JW: Yeah.
RA: Looking in front of you.
JW: And after the war, you, would you like to tell me what you did after the war?
RA: After the war [unclear] I went back, I was serving my time in County Down Railway when I joined the RAF and.
JW: So, did you go back to them to finish your apprenticeship?
RA: Mh-mh. [clock chimes] Yes, but I had to go back to finish my apprenticeship.
JW: And then, did you work for the Ulster Railway then or did you go, did you move onto another job?
RA: I went, I finished my time there on the County Down Railway.
EA: And then you went to [unclear]
RA: And I went to [unclear] firm that was computers and I worked with them for I don’t know years and I worked my way up in the factory [unclear] was three factories, they had Belfast and one of them, I worked my way up to the manager of the factory so where assembled the machine, computer machines, tested them.
JW: Can you tell me a little bit about your brother Edward?
RA: Ted?
JW: Ted, yeah.
RA: Yeah.
JW: He was, what did he do in the RAF?
RA: He was a flight engineer, same as I was, and he did two tours of operations and had forty trips.
JW: Did he take part in any particular raids that you can remember?
RA: He bombed Berlin two or three times and [unclear]
JW: Yeah. What squadron was he?
RA: I forget.
EA: 61.
JW: Can you tell me which squadron he was in?
RA: I forget the number it was.
EA: Six.
RA: 61?
EA: 617.
JW: So, can you tell me which squadron your brother was in?
RA: 61. 617.
JW: 617, yes, which was I think, the Dambusters squadron.
RA: Mh-mh.
JW: But he didn’t take part in the raid.
RA: No.
JW: And he, he survived the war?
RA: He survived the war.
JW: Right. Well, Rex, thank you very much for sharing with me your memories and what we’ll do is they will send a copy of transcript of the interview and also a copy of this CD once they’ve downloaded it into the database.
RA: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Rex Armstrong
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Wells
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AArmstrongGR170720
Format
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00:33:13 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Rex Armstrong served in the RAF as a flight engineer. He was born in Belfast and grew up in Donaghadee. Decided to join the RAF because he wanted to follow his brother Ted, who flew forty operations with 617 Squadron. Mentions being in the fire service as a young boy during the bombing of Belfast. After completing his training, he was posted to 195 Squadron at RAF Wratting Common. From there he flew a tour of twenty operations on Lancasters. He was involved in Operation Manna and Operation Exodus. Remembers his worst operation, which was to Dresden.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Northern Ireland--Belfast
Northern Ireland--Donaghadee
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
195 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Wratting Common
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/794/10776/ADawsonR171107.2.mp3
8ad9cef294f74f5a98b99c14641317ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dawson, Ron
R Dawson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Ron Dawson (1684989 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dawson, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the international Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Ron Dawson, flight sergeant, later warrant officer. The interview is taking place at Ron’s house in Stafford on the 7th of November 2017. Ron, would you start us off by telling us a little bit about your family background please?
RD: Yes. Well, I was the, there was four of us in the family and I was the, my brother was four years older than me and then I had two sisters, four years and five years older than, younger than me. And we lived in a terraced, small terraced house and from there I, when I was sixteen and a half, when I was sixteen I joined the Air Training Corps and then the Air Training Corps I trained to be air gunner and strange as it may seem, my schoolfriend, who we went training on bomber pilot, he changed, he became and we were training as air gunners together. And we trained, and you did your air gunnery course which was an exciting course because you did flying on different aircraft, we did Anson aircraft which had a turret behind the pilot and of course being a gunner, that was ideal and they used to, an aircraft coming along, towing a windsock and we used to fire the guns at the windsock and then my pal joined up and we got in this air gunnery course together and then we went to, when it was all finished, we went to an airfield in Leicester, there was hundreds of different people, pilots, bomb aimers, navigators, and the pilot was trying to get a crew together and he was walking along and talking and with me, he said, he came over, he said, tell me, who are you? I said I told him my age, who I was and he said, what do you want to be? I said, a rear gunner. Oh, he said, I am looking for a rear gunner for my crew and I said, wonder of wonders, my pal, who gave up Bomber Command, gave up pilot and navigator course and we are on the course together and we did a gunnery course, flying an Anson aircraft with a turret, and then in a Boulton Paul Defiant, which was a fighter aircraft, and it was, it had a turret, and it was exciting. And then we all met in this very large room at the airport of Leicester and this man came to me and he said, can you tell me who are you? Well, I said, Ron Dawson, and he said, what did you train? I said, I’ve been trained as an air gunner, oh, he said, I’m a pilot, and he was Australian. And he said, I’m a pilot, I’m looking for a gunner, I said, well a rear gunner, he said, that’s fine and I said, my pal who managed to get the same course, we did the gunnery course together, and I said, I joined up with the pilot, the navigator and other people and we flew. In the early days, we flew in the, the old aircraft called the Whitley, it’s nickname was the flying coffin, because it was square shaped like a coffin and it flew nose down and I did a couple of operations over Europe in that dropping, one was dropping leaflets and the other one was dropping bombs. And then I got together and we were, we were recruited to, as a crew, doing raids on different parts of Germany, Leipzig, Magdeburg, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin and I said it’s, it was exciting going to these different places and I said it was exciting to see the aircraft fighting in the sky, the Germans firing at us and I said twice, on, once on a trip we were attacked by the German aircraft and he fired his guns at us but he never hit us and another time we were there they came and he, the aircraft attacked us and he shot us up, shot the backend of the plane and we had trouble with the mechanics to control the aircraft and we had to land at a [unclear] in Norfolk which was controlled by the Americans and we landed there because there was some difficulty with the mechanics of the aircraft and in controlling it and they had a runway over a mile long which enabled us to control our aircraft and stop and then another time we were shot up and we had to land and we landed at an American Air Force base and I remember the American coming to me and saying, are you RAF? I said, yes, I am, I’m an air gunner, rear gunner, oh, he said, and where [unclear], I said, this is my aircraft, my God, he said, it’s all bullet holes, I said, yes, fortunately none of them have hit us and I said, and another time, we got shot up and then I said, I was flying coming back from Germany on a raid, and we got attacked and we got, we had to bail out, I said, we were over twenty thousand feet and I said it was almost laughable when I was, I said, I went forward the aircraft, you, normally I would drop out the, out the rear turret, backwards, with me parachute on, but if we could we all went out the front so the pilot could count the crew had got out and I said, I bailed out of there the front and I said, we were twenty thousand feet and I said, it was, it was unique, I said and, I said I was, we carried a whistle so that if you ever come down in the sea, you don’t have to shout, you blow the whistle and attract attention and I said, I was blowing my whistle and I was shouting hello! This is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, is calling everybody, hello! And I said I was [unclear] down some twenty thousand feet and I said, I landed and I, immediately I could see my aircraft which had crashed and was burning and I turned my back on it and started to run away and I got, I was hiding up and I was hiding in these bushes, I had no idea where I was, except I thought I was in Germany and I said I, it was coming daylight and I got into these bushes and I looked out cause I heard a dog barking and I thought, they’ve got the dogs on me tail and then I looked up, it was getting late, and I could see these crossroads and the crossroads had signposts there, the Germans never took the sign posts down, so there was a little farmhouse nearby and I saw this farm and this dog was really [unclear] barking and when he disappeared I went out to look at the crossroads to see where I was. And the first words that stuck out in me mind was Luxembourg and I thought, oh, I’ll just go back and hide, now I know where I am and, but the dog started barking again, I thought if I go back and hide in the bushes, the farmer will, I don’t know whether he’s good, bad or indifferent, but I said, I walked into the village, and I said, it’s a mystery of mysteries, about eight to ten children came from nowhere, told them to call [unclear] through the village and no sooner we’d done about twenty yards, then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I turned the first corner and it ended into a little wood and I said, I got my maps out cause I’ve read the signpost and I found where I was and I thought, good, and I was told in, when I was in training, if you get shot down and you come near Switzerland, that’s a neutral country, it’s a good country to get to if you can but the Germans smothered the border to stop anybody trying to escape so I said, I made me mind up, I was in Luxembourg and I’d walk across France and across Spain because Spain wasn’t exactly [unclear] friendly with Germany and into Portugal and I said, I don’t know how many hundred miles it was and I said, I set off walking, but again I got disturbed and this little man stopped me when I was sitting in this little wood and he said in French, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute, you RAF, fall with the parachute and I said, I’ve never been more pleased about learning French at school than I did then, cause the words came easy. And I said yes and I was picked up by them and they hid me away and it was a case of hiding from the Germans and I knew where I was, Luxembourg and then I got out of there and I set off for Spain and I, over France and Spain and Portugal but I got picked up and I was, joined the RAF from there, almost flying in different aircraft, finishing me air training course, and when I did in 1944, I was on me fortieth op and I got shot down and I couldn’t fly again and I was, I got picked up by the underground and taken care of.
JM: Now, I believe Ron that you were, you were, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite a long time.
RD: Yeah, yeah.
JM: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
RD: About?
JM: About the time you spent in hiding in Luxembourg.
RD: Oh yes. When I, when I was hiding from the Germans, I didn’t know where I was, and then I was hiding in the bushes, and then I heard a dog barking, and I thought, oh, the Germans have got a police dog on me tail, and I looked out and it was a farmhouse with crossroads, and there was a farmer and his big dog were standing by a little farmhouse, he went in and there were signposts at the crossroads, the Germans never took signposts down, so I said, ah, that’s where I’ll know where I am, and when I went down, I saw the words, [unclear], Luxembourg, and I was just a few kilometres from Luxembourg and I thought, great, and then the underground picked me up, and I was hiding and training with them and it was really exciting coming down after being shot down at twenty thousand feet in the air and blowing the whistle and shouting, this is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, and I landed and then I saw the Luxembourg, I saw the crossroad signs, saw that I was in Luxembourg, and I was going back into hiding, and then the farmer saw me, so I went into the village, and I walked in the village and about eight to ten children joined me and then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I went into the wood, and I looked at me, I got me maps out cause you would given when you would training, you were given an escape package, with foreign money in, French, Belgian, German, and the little maps to tell you where you were and I said, I decided that I would, that’s what I would do, but I got picked up by this little man and he came, he said, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute and he took me on board and I was glad to know it was Luxembourg.
JM: I believe for some time you were living in a house that was only two doors from the Gestapo.
RD: What?
JM: I believe for, you were living in a house that was only two doors down from the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Two what?
JM: Two doors, two houses, close by the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Oh yes, yes, and it was exciting and it was frightening in some words, not exactly frightening, but I went training and I was flying and as I say, I got shot down, then I got picked up by the underground cause I was in these different houses and they, I found out, [unclear] I read me maps and everything where I was and I thought, I’ll set off walking from, to Portugal because you couldn’t, the Swiss border was so heavily protected and so I got picked up by the underground who took me on board and took me in a house and hid me and I was hiding away when I was, this man came and took me and he took me to his house and it was in Luxembourg and it was a nice house that I learned much later it was only four, five doors from the senior German police officer and I was hiding in this house and it, they looked up to me, and then they picked up and put me in the underground and it was, it was living, when I was flying, I did about, I did over forty operations and I got shot down, and I wasn’t hurt but when we had to land at this airport, which is a big airport, the Americans were there and when the Americans came and saw the aircraft, and said, are you part of the crew? I said, yes, he said, what are you? I said, the rear gunner, my God, he said, look at that! He said, I said, all the Perspex of the rear turret was shot away, there’s bullet holes all over, how I’ve never been hit I don’t know, but I said it was, I was picked up by those people and I was learned to, trying to fly.
JM: Ron, can I just take you, can I just take you back to your time in Luxembourg?
RD: Time?
JM: When you were living in Luxembourg.
RD: Yeah.
JM: Does the main
RD: I was living in Luxembourg, I was picked up and this, this family picked me up and I was, I’d seen the sign posts and I looked, I got in the wood and looked at me maps and I saw where I was, I was delighted and then this little man came and asked me if I was RAF and I joined up with him.
JM: Does the name Ferdie Schulz mean anything to you? The name Ferdie Schulz?
RD: Yes, and the man, the man that looked after me, was a man, he, I was picked up and taken into the village. And there’s a lady there and she was talking to me in French and it was, she was talking very fast and difficult to understand and I said, the door opened and I said, this man came in, tall, heavily built, short cropped iron grey hair, I said, this man’s Gestapo, he’s German, but he said to me in German, sprechen sie Deutsch? I said, nein. I said, I speak English. Parlez vouz francais? I said, en peu, just a little I speak, but I am English, and from that moment on he hid me away and he took me to his house in the middle of Luxembourg. His wife was a Spanish lady who was neutral of course and she was scared stiff because she was not anti-German but not pro German. And she was scared stiff because only a few doors away was a very senior German police officer and if she’d been caught, she could have been hurt, she could’ve been. Anyhow, I got out of there
JM: How long, how long were you living with them?
RD: Ey?
JM: How long were you living with them?
RD: I lived with Ferdie Schulz from the March to the 8th of June.
JM: Right.
RD: Because the invasion came on the 6th of June.
JM: Yes.
RD: All the names and dates blend in.
JM: Yes.
RD: And then I, I was in training and
JM: When you left their house, when you left their house
RD: Yes
JM: I believe
RD: When I lived Ferdie Schulz’s house.
JM: You went to the Ardennes
RD: I went to live in Belgium and then in Belgium I went into the Ardennes forest
JM: Yes
RD: And I lived in the Ardennes forest and I joined up with a [unclear] groups of people and they were all European, French, German, Italian and we were all in this camp and I was sitting when the invasion had started and we could hear the invasion, the, the Allies had landed in Europe and were coming forward, and we were in this camp as I say, nearly all European nationalities, and we were debating what to do, should we come out in the open and meet the Allies or wait and I said, I went outside in to have a pee and I said over the top of the bushes, I saw these round helmets, my God, Germans have found us and I said, run, the Germans are here! And it turned out to be the Americans.
JM: So, you were liberated by the Americans.
RD: Yeah, and then the Americans picked us up, looked after us, took us into the, into the Ardennes forest and I was living in the Ardennes forest with a group of other people and then I was moved into Belgium and it
JM: Now, I believe that the Americans actually arrested you in the forest.
RD: Well, what happened was, when I went outside for a pee, I saw the round helmets, I thought, run, it’s the Germans, and then [unclear] with the Americans and the Americans came and they talked to us and they, he said, we have to arrest you because we have to interview to find you who you really are and we are going to put you in this school house with some other people and outside in the yard was full of German soldiers and I was looked after and interviewed and hidden away, well, I say hidden away, got to know everybody, and it was, it was, living in the with Ferdie Schulz, just a few doors from the senior police officer, then things got a bit scary, they had a maid and she found out I was there, and they moved me on, into a village called Troisvierges, three virgins, in Northern Belgium, and I lived with a doctor, Doctor Isha, and his wife and he had a wife there and he was old and he had a daughter called Guedette and he had a maid, she was seventy odd, and we lived there for a while. And then they moved me on from there into a hiding place in the forest in north, in south Belgium and then I got out when the Germans came, well, when the Americans came, I got out and they interviewed me and I eventually got back to England and was transferred, it was funny, when I was picked up I was more or less left to go on my own devices and I said, I was guided up to the north of, to the north of Europe and then taken over into Europe and in Europe I met Ferdie Schulz who looked after me, he looked after me for several weeks, and then, after a few weeks, the Germans, the Allies came forward and he took me along and we met the Allies.
JM: I understand that after the war, you met up with the Schulz family again through their daughter.
RD: That’s right.
JM: Will you tell us about that, please?
RD: That’s right. I went back, I went back to see them, Ferdie Schulz, in Europe and it was, it was exciting and frightening to think that I’d lived so close with them to the senior German police officer and that they risked their lives.
JM: And he was involved with Radio Luxembourg.
RD: That was Luxembourg.
JM: And he was involved
RD: And from Luxembourg I went to the Ardennes forest in Belgium
JM: You did, but Ferdie Schulz was involved with Radio Luxembourg I believe.
RD: Radio?
JM: Radio Luxembourg.
RD: Radio Luxembourg.
JM: He was involved with that?
RD: Oh yes, well, Radio Luxembourg came and interviewed me.
JM: Right.
RD: And it was, they were so interested into the story
JM: Right.
RD: And from there on I went, the Americans came forward and the Americans looked after us and then I went
JM: You went to Paris I believe.
RD: Went to Paris, yes, was nice Paris, nice in Paris, and it was a strange world in Paris but it was such a big city, it was a lonely place but I was taken up to the, to live with Ferdinand Schulz in his house and as I say, he had a Spanish lady who was in neutral
JM: Yeah.
RD: And she was frightened because in case the Germans
JM: How did you get back from Paris to England?
RD: Well, I was living in a camp among a lot of other people, Europeans, German, Italians, French, Belgian and I went outside for a pee, saw these round helmets and I thought, oh, the Germans have come, and I shout, the Germans have come, and this voice said, [unclear] and it was the Americans and I said, the Americans then got us all together and they said, well, you have to be interviewed to see if you are really who you are, to see if you are an ally and so you’ll be arrested by us and I was arrested and I was put on the back of an American lorry and taken up to South Belgium and I was taken out there and put into a school and I was told I would have to be there till I was interviewed and I said anyhow, I went in the school and the Germans interviewed me and then I, I was, they believed who I was
JM: I think you mean the Americans interviewed you.
RD: Well, the Americans I meant, the Americans and they left me on me own to get back to England and I got back to England and got picked up and got helped and it was all exciting, it was coming back to a new world, after being shot down, you know, it was, and how frightening it was, to live so near a senior German police officer and it was, I wasn’t caught.
JM: You successful evaded for so many weeks
RD: And the Americans came and took me, put me in a school, then took me to the North of Belgium and left me and I mean, I made me own way back to England and I, I must tell you, I had no money and I was walking in Paris cause I’d the freedom of the Americans and I saw this notice, it was a notice on the wall that said, something about a British regiment, I said, I went inside, and I said, there was a captain there and he said, yes, who are you? I said, well, I’m English, he said, how do I know you’re English? I said, well, I tell you the story I’ve been shot down and I said, really what I’ve come for is to see if I can get some money. You’ve got nothing here, it’s not a charity, and the door opened and this fellow is a captain and a major walked in and he said, what’s going on? And when he heard the story, he said to the captain, give him the money, I’ll take the responsibility, we’ve got his name, his rank and his number and we’ll get it back from him later. And I said, so they gave me the money, and I said it’s, then the Americans took me into Northern Belgium that’s more or less left me.
JM: But when you got the money in Paris, you were able to get home.
RD: Right, yeah, yeah, they took me to the North of Belgium and left me and then I got on a plane, made me home with it and I was picked up at the, Germans, the Americans picked me up and they took care of me and I was hiding away and I got free.
JM: When you got home, your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: When I got home?
JM: Your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: Well, I remember that I’d no money and I just wanted money to let my family know I was alright and the British officer gave me the money and I got a message sent to England to tell them folks that I was alright. And the Americans dumped me in the North of Belgium and let me to find me own way back and then I went back and I found my way to the railway station and I got a ticket and I phoned up and told them where I was and the family met me, my dad and two sisters met me at the Stafford railway station and they looked after me.
US: [file missing] You want to tell that story?
RD: Yeah.
US: And then you can tell that story and then Julian asked and then, when you got back to the UK, how did you get a message to your dad and where did they meet you, not at Stafford, it was at Durham or Newcastle.
RD: Yeah, yeah, well,
US: Tell.
RD: What happened was that when I got the money, we had a good drink, and then the Americans took us forward to the North of Belgium and left us on our own but I had money to get across
US: You had no money, they left you in Belgium, you made your own way to Paris, and it was the English major in Paris
RD: OH yes
US: Who gave you some money.
RD: Yes, the English and army unit, English army unit gave me the money and I managed, they left me in the North of Belgium and I managed to get over there.
US: No doubt.
JM: Yeah, ok.
RD: [file missing] and I spoke to them, they said, we’ll come and meet you, anyhow they came and they met me and I was with them and it was, it was nice meeting up with the family again and it was exciting story to tell and
JM: And I believe after the war, you were a policer officer.
RD: Ey?
JM: I believe after the war, you were a police officer.
RD: OH yes, yes, I joined the police force and it was the thirty years of the policemen, well, twenty odd years, and then I was in a special unit, and it was, they took me in this special unit and the British army looked after me and then I, from there on I, it was the case of meeting different people and getting home and
JM: Ron, could I, answer up and just take you back a little bit?
RD: Is what?
JM: Could I take you back a little bit because there are one or two questions that I want to ask, just to clarify it for the recording. What squadron were you in?
RD: What?
JM: What squadron were you with, when you were shot down? Was it 4?
RD: 429 Squadron.
JM: 429, and where was this based please?
RD: 6 Group Bomber Command Canadian.
JM: Right.
RD: So, I was with a Canadian group and it was they, they looked after me.
JM: Yes. So, you were in a Canadian squadron, but you had an Australian pilot and you were English.
RD: An Australian pilot, an Irish engineer, a Scottish navigator and the foreigner was me.
JM: [laughs] and the operation on which you were shot down was one of the most important and famous operations of the war.
RD: Yeah, well, it was, I was shot down on the major, the biggest loss of Allied bombers which was in ’44 and there was 97 British bombers shot down.
JM: And where were you attacking?
RD: And that was the heaviest loss of bombers at any time.
JM: Yeah. Where were you attacking Ron? What was the target? What was the target?
RD: Pilot?
JM: The target.
RD: Target, Nuremberg.
JM: So, it was the Nuremberg raid.
RD: Yeah, it was on the way back from Nuremberg, this twin engine aircraft shot us up
JM: And you, you
RD: I bailed out by parachute
JM: Yeah.
RD: And there were twenty thousand feet and I was shouting and whistling
JM: And the other crew members, they bailed out too, did they?
RD: Ey?
JM: The other crew members all bailed out?
RD: Yeah, they, I found out later they were, they bailed out and were arrested
JM: They were all captured
RD: Yeah
JM: So, you were the only evader
RD: And I was the only escapee.
JM: Right.
RD: And but I didn’t know that, but it was all now exciting and to think that they, American, the British gave me some money and I was able to go into Paris and
JM: Ron, Ron, can
RD: I remember I got, [unclear] two or three other people and we got drunk with champagne and the champagne was, it was cheap [coughs] and the more we drunk, the more they charged us until we got angry and said, no, you’re robbing us and then everything came fine and they looked after us and I got back to England and mom and, dad and two sisters met me at the railway station and mom was, couldn’t stop crying cause they got a telegram and I’ve got a copy of the telegram that said, regret to report that your son was, is missing, reported as missing in action and I said they made enquiries for several weeks and months and they couldn’t find and mom came to conclusion I was dead. And then out of the blue this wonderful news for mom came and they were delighted, delighted and the family looked after me, the Americans looked after me and it was living at home, making the best you could, and I had a bit of money as I said, from the British army and I was, everybody drank champagne [laughs].
JM: And your squadron, 429,
RD: Ey?
JM: 429 Squadron
RD: 429 Squadron, 6 Group
JM: Yes
RD: Bomber Command
JM: Yes, and was that the Lancaster Squadron?
RD: Canadian Squadron
JM: Yeah
RD: And they were Halifax bombers
JM: They were Halifax bombers
RD: Yes.
JM: How did you feel about flying the Halifax? Did you like it?
RD: Everybody used to say the Lancaster was the pride of the joy of the Bomber Command, no way, I would put all my faith in this Halifax, it could, it got, I mean, I was actually part and parcel of the truth of the matter, got badly shot up and the aircraft stood all the battering we’d got, from being shot up and I got shot down and purely because one of the [unclear] had been damaged and I couldn’t manoeuvre the aircraft, we had to bail out. And it was bailed out and it was, I thought I was dead. I bailed out and with the flames were shooting across the aircraft, and I thought, if I, when I bail out, if I pull the ripcord, the burning petrol may go into the parachute, and it’ll burn and I’ll die, so I said, I’ll count to ten when I bail out, and I started to count and I got to six and I, I didn’t panic, I just said, bugger it, I’m pulling the ripcord, and I said, I got out and pulled the ripcord, and I said, it was a delight really but I said, it was frightening because I was sure I was dead, because when I opened my eyes, I could see me feet, where me head should be, and I thought, it can’t be, your feet should be at the ground, I’m going to Heaven, and then I realised that the harness of the parachute, me leg was trapped in the harness and I was upside down, I was upside down in me parachute, and I was delighted, blowing me whistle, shouting me name, and then I got out, the Americans picked us up, put me in this school house and the American, I got, money from the British and the Americans took me to Northern Belgium and left me.
JM: Ron, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve told us so much about [unclear]
RD: Is that alright?
JM: I’m gonna leave it there for tonight because I can see it’s tiring you so I’ll leave it there thanks on behalf of IBCC.
RD: Any time you want to come back.
JM: Thank you
RD: Because there must be a thousand stories about flying and that sort of thing and me family now know the story living in [unclear] Nuremberg and
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Dawson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADawsonR171107
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:43:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Luxembourg
Germany--Nuremberg
France--Ardennes
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Dawson flew over 40 operations with 429 Squadron as air gunner. He joined the Air Training Corps at the age of sixteen. He trained on Ansons and Boulton Paul Defiants and remembers flying in the Whitley. He crewed up at Leicester airport. Tells of being attacked by enemy fighters twice. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when he was shot down on the way back from Nuremberg. They all bailed out but while the rest of the crew was arrested, he found his way to the Luxembourg border and was taken up by the Resistance. He was then taken to the house of a man called Ferdie Schulz and he stayed there from May 1944 to the 7th of June 1944. From Luxembourg he went to Belgium, where he hid in the Ardennes forest with other people from different countries, until the invasion started and they were then liberated by the Americans, who after questioning them regarding their identity, let him go to fend off on his own. After the war, Ron became a police officer.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1944-04-30
1944-04-31
1944-05
1944-06-07
1945
429 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Defiant
evading
Halifax
Resistance
shot down
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1116/11606/AScottSO150904.1.mp3
889a5cbb3b2747eacf089d7212052a69
Dublin Core
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Title
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Scott, Seymour Owen
S O Scott
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Owen Scott (1922 - 2018).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Scott, SO
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the benefit of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Mr Owen Scott. The interview is taking place at Mr Scott’s home in Stratford-upon-Avon on Friday the 4th of September 2014, sorry 2015. Owen, I wonder if I could just ask you just to tell me a little bit about your early life, where you were born and your family background.
OS: Yes, well, I can do that, it’ll take a long time though [laughs] [clears throat] first of all I was born [pauses], I don’t know whether you want to know this but I was born in London in 1922, my family then moved to Broadstairs in Kent and at the age of ten I attended school in Broadstairs, Kent. I’m having to stop and just think about it because I’m not sure whether I’m, I don’t want to give you the wrong impression and I’ve got to remember what I did in those early days, I went to Chatham House grammar school in Ramsgate, Kent for about two years, when I eventually left the school, my uncle’s suggestion who was very keen for me to get into commercial life and start making a living, he did in fact find a job for me in Harris Lebus, the furniture manufacturer in Tottenham London where I was for about a year and then I returned home and I worked for a local builder as a clerk and typist and after that whoopsie-daisy the war came up and I was always very keen on aircraft and my school pal and I used to go the local RAF aerodrome and watch the aircraft and so I got the bug from that and was always very interested in flying and thought that I’d love to be a pilot. Now, it so happened that I worked, rather a lot happened around that time but anyway I, yeah, I volunteered to the RAF to become a fighter pilot, that’s what, what really urged me on and I just, I thought I’d love to be a fighter pilot flying Spitfires. Now, things got rather hastened at that stage and anyway I was accepted as an aircrew potential and joined the RAF and I was enlisted in London and started serving my time in the RAF. I was eventually posted to, oh dear, what’s the name of the place? Oh dear, on the east coast, damn it, forgotten that, anyway, I then flew for the first time in a Tiger Moth with an instructor of course and it was rather frightening because we took off in snow and I could not believe that the first time I left the earth and it was snowing like hell and subsequently we lost two aircraft over the river, near the Wash, just near the Wash it was and eventually we did our land drills and things like that in Scarborough and was eventually told to stand by but because five o’clock the following morning we were going to Liverpool and no, I didn’t solo at all, I only did about an hour’s flying and that was all, it’s all in my logbook and we were posted to Liverpool and to our astonishment we were put on board the SS Orbita ship and we took seven days to travel to Canada, we were under the impression that we were going to serve with the Canadian Airforce but the actual fact we were on standby for two months in Moncton, New Brunswick, that’s Canada and eventually we were put on a train and to our astonishment we went down to [unclear] just outside I can’t remember but anyway to [unclear] and it was at [unclear], that was an island, I flew solo for the first time. And it was a very exciting time and I remember the instructor saying to me, for goodness sake, don’t hit the tyre as you go off ‘cause the wind’s in the wrong direction and anyway they put the sandbag in the aircraft, this is an American twin-winged aeroplane but anyway I took off and made jolly sure anyway I did the circuit came in and landed safely and hurrah, hurrah, I’ve gone solo. Now then very shortly after that we were told to stand by five o’clock in the morning which always seemed to be the operational time and we got on a train and believe it or not, it took us six days on this train to go down to Pensacola in Florida where we transferred to the American navy. And the idea was to become acquainted with get our wings and to fly American Catalinas flying boats. Now I have recorded on various occasions some of the things that happened when we were in America, I was in America for just under a year learning to fly flying boats and had some rather exciting times which I have since recorded for posterity I hope. But some of the American instructors were very nice chaps but there was an element amongst them where they didn’t like, these goddamn limeys as they used to call us, and then eventually I got my wings and I passed out to be a full captain of a Catalina flying boat with the idea of returning to this country and serving in Coastal Command in America, in Scotland, so here I am with a, oh and also I dropped off at, in Canada, I’ve forgotten the name of the islands now but I did an advanced navigation course there before finishing off, thinking I’m jolly good, I’m gonna fly flying boats out of Scotland. Now when I got back to the UK, to my astonishment, we were told that we were going to go on a conversion course to landplanes and that we should fly with Bomber Command as Bomber Command pilots. Now this was startling news because here we are, I got my wings, I got my special ticket I got from the Americans to fly flying boats and we had to come back to UK to be told that you are going on Bomber Command was very disheartening and in actual fact I made a special request to meet a high ranking officer in Liverpool to, with a view to persuading him that I should go back onto flying boats. He told me to ‘Effing well get back to my squadron’ and was very rude for me indeed and he said, ‘If you don’t do as I effing tell you I’ll put you on a court martial,’ which was very, very frightening for me at that time, now, this seems to be a very long story.
JM: Please continue, it’s wonderful.
OS: But I’m trying to remember, I can remember very well all of this period today, what’s the date of today?
JM: Fourth of September.
OS: The fourth of September 2015 I’m making this recording in front of my charming chap.
JM: Julian.
OS: Julian. To continue with it.
JM: May I ask what year this was that you were joining Bomber Command?
OS: This would be 1944.
JM: ’44.
OS: Am I giving you enough information?
JM: You are. I was going to ask, did you go straight on to a squadron or did you have to do a conversion, did you go to a heavy conversion unit?
OS: Yes, I did.
JM: Tell us about that, please.
OS: Well, yes I flew, oh dear, anyway I lost my train of thought [unclear]
JM: Sorry.
OS: Yeah so much happened around that time is that I want to be as accurate as I can for this purpose and it was a very exciting time but at the same time it was a very frightening time because the thought of going on to Bomber Command wasn’t really what we were looking forward to at all so we were forced into it [clears throat]. I flew Halifaxes, first of all a four-engine bomber which were lousy aircraft and I had a very frightening experience with a New Zealand instructor who I would like to say was checking my crew out and he wanted to fly the aircraft and test my crew and I decided to fly in the rear turret for the experience so he was at the controls with my flight engineer, now we took off and suddenly he shouted, ‘Undo that, undo that, stop that, pull this up, pull that up, pull that out’, just as we took off and it turned out that he had forgotten to unlock the aileron controls and here we were off the ground, climbing and he had no control whatsoever over the aircraft. It frightened me to death ‘cause I was in the rear turret, didn’t know what to do and he kept shouting ‘Undo this, undo that, pull that lever, pull that lever’, and eventually the securing lugs that held the ailerons and rudders and flaps and everything else came into power and eventually they landed safely. I took the man to task and he threatened me and said, ‘If you report me then I will make sure that you are court-martialled’, so I had no option but to forget about the whole thing but it was a very, very frightening experience and it could have killed all of us. Now, around this time, I’m doing this off the top of my head of course, do you think I could just stop a minute and--
JM: Of course.
OS: And just think about
JM: Of course.
OS: Now here I am continuing my yarns about my lifestyle [laughs] and my experiences in the RAF. Now we flew the Halifax bomber as a, not as an operational aircraft but as an introduction to four-engine bombers. I did not like it at all and it was common feeling that it was a lousy aircraft to fly, put it that way, fortunately I did very few hours but as I said before like an introduction to going onto frontline Lancasters four-engine. Now I just stop there for a second if I may. I’m just going to think about that period because it was rather a lot happening particularly when I’m going to talk about, which I have recorded by the way, about picking up my flight engineer. Now both, Halifax, no, I’m not sure but anyway the Lancaster, you had to have a, you couldn’t fly a Lanc without a flight engineer, this is what we call a Lancaster finishing school which was also prior to going onto a squadron but of course now I’m in a situation where I’m going to pick up a crew and I think that’s where I better start.
JM: Please.
OS: Switch on.
JM: Go, it’s on, go. Yeah.
OS: Right. The method of gaining a crew and there were six other members to fly in the aircraft, two gunners, navigator, bomb aimer and flight engineer, oh and wireless operator. Seven of us altogether in every Lancaster. Now so what happened was that chaps got together, we weren’t commissioned at that time, we were flight sergeants and someone said, this chap over here is a nice fellow and I understand he is a good shot, this is a good navigator, they got together, came to me and said, ‘We think these guys will serve you well because we’ve lived with them for a few weeks and I think we’d like to introduce you to them.’ Right, now the next thing is that I met these crew apart from the flight engineer and this story I’ve already recorded because it is a full story and I’m gonna tell it now because I think it will be viewed with a lot of interest. The way they did it was that the crews and the skipper went on parade in lines and the fully qualified flight engineers used to march round the circle and as they passed each crew would fall out and attach themselves to that squadron. I don’t want to go into it any deeper than that but that was a simple as that. Now when the guy comes past me and stopped and then said, ‘Hello skip, my name is—' whatever it was and I looked at this chap and I could not believe to, now we were all around the age of twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four years of age, this guy looked to me as though he was thirty one, anyway I and also he was a very heavy chap, and he looked to me he was about fifteen stone and I could not believe that I got landed with this sort of chap although he seemed a very nice fellow. Eventually my crew came to me and said skip, of course he would, by that time I was commissioned by the way, so I wasn’t living with my crew who were all flight sergeants, he came to me and said ’We found out that so-and-so the flight engineer is thirty one, he’s not thirty one, he’s thirty one’ and he’s, but he said, ‘We’ve now found out that he’s forty one.’ I could not believe it, anyway there was no appeal, you had to take what they gave you and then when I started having him on the crew I found out that he was an ex Manchester policeman and he was in fact forty one. He was not, he found it difficult to get inside the aircraft and get up beside me on the cockpit, he was very slow on the uptake, on various things, and when it came to being qualified in how do we switch tanks, what pressures and temperatures, the engines would fly at, he was very slow and worried me to death and when I asked him to identify for example lights at night, he would say ‘Did you say, which one did you say, skipper? Which one is that, is it the one on the left or the one on the right?’ And I said, ‘It’s the green one, well, can you see it?’ ‘No’, he said, ‘I can’t see green’ and it frightened me to death. Anyway I’m gonna stop there for a second to get my breath back. Now I’ve already indicated some of the difficulties I had with this flight engineer. I’m now going to recall something I will never forget, one of the things I will never forget and it was that we were on this particular, I forget which one it was, it was a German, German raid at night and lousy night, bad weather, flying in cloud and anyway I’ll skip the bit about the bombing run and the attack but on the, soon as we left the target, my rear gunner called me up and said, ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you but the starboard inner is on fire.’ I couldn’t see it from where I was sitting but I got out of my seat and to my amazement the damn engine was on fire and flames was shooting from out of the engine and I knew I got, so I did all sorts of manoeuvres like trying to blow the fire out, by diving in corkscrews and all that sort of thing, the fire wouldn’t go out and I knew it meant trouble because the flames were getting bigger coming from the engine. So what I had to do was to tell my flight engineer to fire the fire extinguisher on that engine, the crew I must say were very quiet and a little concerned, so I said to the flight engineer ‘Now stand by to press the fire extinguisher on the engine that’s on fire, that’s the starboard inner.’ He said, ‘Okay skip, don’t worry, you tell me when you want to hit the button.’ So I said, ‘Well stand by.’ So having dived and climbed for several times at very high speed, at very low speed to get rid of the flames that wouldn’t go out, so I said, ‘Well, on the count of three, I want you to press the fire extinguisher button on the starboard inner.’ ‘Okay skip,’ he said, ‘I’m waiting.’ So, I levelled the aircraft, and I said ‘One, two, three, now!’ The engine, the aircraft immediately yawed or to use a [unclear], anyway the aircraft swung round to the left, I could not believe it, he had pressed the wrong button and killed my point inner so now with two, only two engines left and there was a long way to go home over the North Sea, we got another four or five hours flying home. I, the aircraft, as I said, yawed again and I, once you fired the fire extinguisher you couldn’t fire it again. And anyway to this day I cannot remember how I got that port inner engine to fire and to be serviceable, I have never remembered how I did it but it was an absolute miracle and fortunately I got that engine started and we returned home on three engines. Now when we got back to base, as far as I remember it was about five o’clock in the morning, still dark and I landed and my flight engineer disappeared, we gotta go now for a debriefing, so he didn’t come to the debriefing and my crew and I reported what had happened on the debrief and we went and had our bacon and eggs and went to bed. Now it was still dark and my batman woke me up and said, ‘Skip, your flight engineer wants to see you desperately.’ So I get out of bed and he came in and he said, ‘Skip, I,’ he said ‘I’ve come to tell you what happened and why.’ He was in tears, he said, ‘Skip, my father is stone deaf, my mother is stone deaf, my sister is stone deaf,’ he said, ‘And I’m going deaf,’ he says, ‘And I couldn’t hear you.’ And I said, ‘You realise, do you, that what’ he said, ‘I could have killed us all’. I said, ‘You could, you stupid boy, why on earth did you go through with it like that, knowing that you were going deaf? How important it was to fly alongside of me in the cockpit?’ The following day he was posted from the squadron and I, when Nan and I, my wife and I were on honeymoon, I had a letter from him to say that he had taken on a pub in Manchester, we looked in and said hello, he was very happy to see me of course, so I said, ‘You’re still alive then?’ That’s all I could say. With a sarcastic tone and my wife and I carried on to the Lake District for our honeymoon. That’s the end of the story. There are two things that our eldest daughter Toni has suggested that I should record.[pause] I’m gonna tell you, don’t record, I’ll tell you afterwards but I just want you to see what I was gonna say, now just before I, no, don’t record it, ‘cause I will do.
JM: Yeah.
OS: I’m just trying to [unclear], I want to get into the rhythm of it and I want to get it right, having left the Lancaster Finishing School, we were eventually posted to a squadron. I can’t remember the name, the number of the squadron actually, but it was some fair way from Hemswell where we had the Lanc finishing school. It was about ten o’clock in the morning and we arrived at this squadron and I was greeted by the wing commander who said ‘Come in the office, nice to meet you, you can see what I’m doing here can’t you?’ And I said, ‘Well’, I said, ‘well, I’m not sure.’ He said, ‘I lost ten crews last night’ and I was horrified, he lost ten crews out of ten, wiped out the squadron, and he was going on the blackboard down with a duster wiping them all off. He said, ‘Well don’t worry about it’, he said, ‘You and I will be on a new squadron together and you’re gonna be my second in command.’ You see, so, I thought, oh, oh, alright, here we are, welcoming handshake so to speak, but crews started to come in and we started to build up the squadron with other crews, and after about a couple of weeks he called me in the office one morning and he said, ‘I’ve got something to show you’, and I said, ‘Oh yes’, took me in his back room and there was a container, about ten inches in diameter and about three feet high, it was a food carrier and alongside it there was a packed parachute, I was a little unsure what was going on and he said, ‘I’m just about to fly to Paris and I want you to cover me.’ And I was mystified, I said, ‘I’m not sure what you mean’. ‘Well’, he said, ‘my wife is still living in Paris’ and he said, ‘I’m going to take her a food container and I’m gonna drop the parachute over Paris and I want you to cover for me.’ I was so bewildered I suppose is the word, about this I didn’t tell my crew, but eventually crews started to come in and eventually we started operations against Germany. But he didn’t put me on to fly on ops so I went into his office this morning and I said, ‘Sir, I’m begging your pardon but why aren’t you putting me on ops?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘you don’t want to go one of these piddling, stupid things on the north coast of France’, he said. ‘Rubbish’, he said, ‘we will wait till we get a big one then you and I are will fly together’. I said, ‘Fly what?’ He said, ‘Well, we’ll go on a big raid.’ Again, I was mystified. And he didn’t put me on. And now, I could not, for the life of me, bear the thought of me flying over France, over Paris, while he dropped some food to his wife, and I thought, I’m not gonna jeopardize my crew and myself here, I’m not gonna do it but I don’t know how I’m gonna get out of it ‘cause he’s a very powerful man. And anyway eventually, believe it or not, a posting came through for me and my crew to form another squadron. I was so relieved, my crew didn’t really, ‘cause I never let on I didn’t want to upset them but I did tell them a later time. But eventually, yes, we were posted to Hemswell to form 170 Squadron. And that leads me to another story. Now, the story goes like this, in the officers, by this time I was commissioned and my crew of course were all flight sergeants, eventually one or two of them did become commissioned but my crew and I were set now to go on an operational bombing squadron at 170 Hemswell. Now we had a little bit of a knees-up so to speak in the mess, in the officer’s mess, one. very shortly after this, one night, and to meet our new wing commander and during the course of the evening his wife came across to me and asked me if I’d go outside with her ‘cause she wanted to speak to me privately. I was rather surprised at this but we went into another room and she says, ‘Owen’, she said I, ‘You don’t mind me calling you by your Christian name, do you?’ I wondered what on earth was coming and she said, ‘But I’d like you to help me if you can.’ And I said, ‘Well, I will if I can but what is the problem?’ She said, ‘The problem is that my husband’ wing commander, forgot his name, ‘He’s not gonna be capable of carrying the post that he’s got’ and she said, ‘And I wanted you to if you would, try and help him all you can so that he doesn’t make any mistakes.’ But of course I, it was an unbelievable thing to happen on a night of frollity, put it that way, that’s the wrong word but, a pleasant evening and I did say to her, ‘Well, I’ll do whatever I can.’ Now then, we started operating hot trot trips over Germany and the wing commander was very weak at the briefings that we had to go on these raids didn’t put himself on at all but it was expected that the wing commander would fly operationally with the crews, he didn’t do that, and it was very difficult to approach him and I thought of what his wife had asked me but I didn’t have the opportunity and I could see that it was going to be inevitable that the man would not last in the post, it so happened that he was posted, we never saw him again and we eventually had a new wing commander. I never heard from his wife but I think that was a story that was a little unusual and for me at the time to find myself involved with the wing commander’s wife, well I can laugh about it now but it was very serious at the time. End of story.[pause] On one occasion on 170 Squadron Hemswell Bomber Command, I think it was on the raid to Duisburg, not, I can refer to it, it’s in my logbook anyway but it was a big target and there were over a thousand Lancasters on it at night and situation over the target was absolutely petrifying, there were fighters above, searchlights and you had to be careful of searchlights ‘cause once they got you in the searchlight they predicted anti-aircraft fire and you’re a goner. And I remember too many times being caught while I got caught twice on searchlights and but how I got out of it I’ll never know, I’m the luckiest guy, the luckiest crew. But coming back to this particular, I think it was Duisburg, but anyway what happened was this, we went on the raid and at night of course, and the job of the bomb aimer was to check through a peeping hole in the bomb bay just to make sure that all the bombs had left, had been jettisoned. The word was that ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you’ but that we got the cookie, that’s a two thousand pound bomb, it was fused and could not be defused. Once it was fused and it had to go. And there were five other five hundred pound bombs in as well. Nearly all night I flew up and down the North Sea trying to get rid of these bombs, they would not go and I think there was a malfunction in the bombing mechanism but no matter what I did I could not shake these bombs off. So I returned close to the squadron and called up control and said ‘I got a problem, can you advise me?’ And the guy said, ‘Oh yes, I’ll call you in five minutes.’ Very casual and some of these controllers in the control tower really used to irritate me because they were so damn cocky about things and I said to one of them on one occasion, ‘It’s alright for you sitting there smoking your cigarette but here I am in trouble and all you got to do is say goodnight.’ But anyway they said after five minutes, ‘You can either put the aircraft on automatic, head it out to sea and parachute over the sea or you can put it on automatic and bail out over the land but make sure that the aircraft sets itself and blows itself up in the sea. Or you can land with it and just be gentle how you land it,’ so I called him back and said, ‘I’m thinking about it’, so I said to the crew, ‘I don’t want to persuade you but I’d rather than bail out either over the sea or over the land, I’d rather put it down.’ And the crew were marvellous, they said, ‘Skip you can do it, you can do it, boy, we all vote for you, we are going with you.’ I was very honoured, sorry, upsets me even today. I don’t know what to think about it, but this is what happened, now it’s dark, pitch black and it was raining a bit anyway I called funnels that was the to let the control know where I was and I came up on the, they didn’t, they wouldn’t light the airstrip, the landing field for me because you weren’t allowed to light up at night oh dear in case there were fighters about but anyway I’ve got very few lights, it was pitch black, raining slightly and I didn’t say anything to the crew but I thought to myself, come on scotty boy you gotta put this one down right. And anyway I came in and I landed it on three wheels and my rear gunner called me up and he said, ‘Skip, that’s the finest landing you have ever made, that’s the finest landing you’ve ever made’ and I was still rolling up the runway. And I’ve got to put the brakes on and then he said, ‘Skip, and furthermore you’ll never in your life make another landing like that. It was fantastic’, now I’m now rolling up the runway and I’m doing about a hundred and thirty knots and I gotta put the brakes down and I’ve got these damn bombs stuck up in the bomb bay. So I, and I warned the crew, I said, ‘When we get to the end of the runway, I want you to open up all the doors and the hatches, jump out and run with me like bloody hell.’ Because I knew that if that bomb fell off, it would blow the squadron to smithereens, because you could not defuse it. I turned off very, very gently into the lay-by and [sighs] It upsets me to think about it, but we were the luckiest crew that ever lived because when, I didn’t open the bomb doors, normally after you’d been on a raid you opened the bomb doors when you finished doing the survey and so we ran away and went and had our bacon and eggs and then had a debriefing. Now, later on, that morning I decided to go to my aircraft to see what the situation was. They’d already got inflatable bags under the bomb bay and under the wings and the idea was that because this bomb was still there, they had to lower it very, very gently otherwise it would blow up. Now an actual fact, I recorded this matter, on ITV about a year ago and a full description I gave of it and it went like I’ve said and now here we were now. The frightening thing was that when I landed the actual bomb, the big one, the cookie, the two thousand pounder, which you couldn’t defuse, was resting on the bomb doors. And if I had done the usual practice of opening the bomb doors it would have fallen out and blown up the squadron. But how lucky can you get? We got away with it. End of story. The, it was never disclosed why that bomb had hung up and the five hundred pounders you see there was a mechanism that the bomb aimer used to drop the bombs and looking back on it, it was never really looked, into, we were all so pleased that the war is over, hallelujah and let’s have a good time, get back and let’s live again but I think there was a malfunction in the mechanism of the bomb aimer because he was a lovely guy and he actually became our good, our best man at our wedding, good old George, am I recording?
JM: Yes.
OS: Yeah, so, I’ll stop there a minute. Our executive officer on the squadron, lovely guy, he used to look after, bringing the bad news to parents and wives and so on, all our losses, lovely guy, called me into the office and he said, ‘Scotty I’ve got some good news for you, you’ve been appointed, you’ve been awarded the DFC’, and I couldn’t believe it, he said, ‘Yes you have’, he said, ‘And furthermore I want you to take the Croix de Guerre.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, there is a Croix de Guerre for you as well.’ He said, ‘I want you to take it.’ And I said, ‘No, I’m not’, I couldn’t do that. You see, it was the end of the war, celebrations and never again gonna fly a Lancaster, never gonna bomb anything and I said, no, I couldn’t do that. Now, there’s a sequel to this but I anyway, I met him in the mess that night and he says, ‘Scotty, I really wish you would take it’, and I said, no, I couldn’t do it, now I tell you a bit more to that and it went like this, we were briefed and told that this was the last raid the RAF Bomber Command would do, it was the end of the war, then this is going to be the briefing for the last one which was to bomb the submarine pens in Holland. I think it was Holland, I can’t quite remember, but it’s in my logbook. And I was put on with the rest of the crews and now I am hesitating for a second because this was a very, very hairy situation so it was at the briefing it was for a daylight raid on the submarine pens as I say in northern Italy, Holland. And so it’s gonna be daylight, there were a thousand Lancasters on it and it was the last raid of the war. Okay, now then, we get the briefing, take off, I get to within fifty yards of the end of the runway and I lose an engine. It just went dead on me and I don’t forget a Lancaster when it’s fully loaded is thirty eight, repeat, thirty eight tonnes and you got to be very careful, I don’t care what anyone says, I’ve done it, when you fly in a Lancaster you have to be absolutely red hot about everything. Now I’m getting just a little bit emotional about this but it’s something that I can never forget in my lifetime, and I’m telling this true story, now I got off the end of the runway, how I got off the runway with eight tonnes on board of bombs, I’ll never know and I gradually went up into the circuit ready to go to the submarine pens. In view of the fact that it was gonna be the last and it was declared, this is the last raid of the war, in daylight, I said to the crew well I was entitled to go out to sea and discharge my bombload and return to base but like the stupid fool I was in those days, aged twenty two and I thought, for various reasons we’ll go I put it to the crew, they said, ‘Yes, come on skip, you can do it, we’ll do it, it’s the last one of the raids, last one of the war, it’s a daylight, it’s a cinch, it’s a walkover, come on, we’ll do it’, so I went on three engines, it was a stupid thing to do but I’m trying to build the story as to why I should do it but anyway we got near to the target, beautiful sunny day and a Lancaster flew very close to me, just under my port side, and don’t forget I’m flying now with three engines and he waved to me and put his thumbs up and he drifted across and went below me and we are now on the bombing run and my bomb aimer is saying, ‘Left, left, steady, steady, steady, ready, you know, stand by, I’m gonna fire it’ and we are all, ‘Good old skip, here we go, on the last one, we’re gonna drop this one on and stop these bloody submarines from coming out and damaging our ships.’ But to my utter amazement I saw this guy that waved to me go down and a parachute fell out, followed by another one and six parachutes came out and my, one of my gunners said it was a Messerschmitt 109 shot him down, and I was mortified so he hit, they were going down in parachutes, six parachutes opened but the seventh parachute didn’t but I presumed it was the skipper who couldn’t get out and I got my radio opposite, radio operator to phone base straight away and say they’d gone down in the sea and we never heard again what happened but this damn Messerschmitt 109 got him. We dropped our load and we got back safely. Now when it came to the debrief, my crew were very anxious to tell the female intelligence officer who debriefed us what happened, that we lost an engine and I went on three engines, she just marked it down as ‘he returned on three engines’. I was so disappointed because although it was a stupid thing for me to do, it was a celebration but to think that that guy lost his crew because of a 109. End of story. Well, one of the things that happened during the raid was when my - raid over Germany of course - was that my navigator rang me and says, ‘Skip, I’m sorry for Jerry, but we are six minutes early, we’ve gotta lose six minutes because the master bombers have got it wrong somewhere.’ Well, the frightening thing was how on earth am I gonna lose six minutes? so what I had to do was form a three hundred and sixty degree turn in amongst all the other Lancs going in and the perspiration was running off me because I thought, any minute I’m gonna get smashed up with another Lanc, but fortunately and I’m a lucky guy and weren’t we a lucky crew, we got away with it and we continued onto the target but the raids were petrifying, well the raids were terrifying because you know, a Lancaster’s a big aircraft, it was the biggest aircraft in the world at that stage and as I’ve said before, with a full load, you got thirty eight tonnes hurtling through the sky at two hundred and forty five knots and with the searchlights that used to be [unclear], I only went to Berlin once and when you got within striking distance, you’d have thirty searchlights all come on together and light the sky up, and then you see all these aircraft and I can remember on one occasion my bomb aimer saying, ‘Watch out for the sky, on your right, skip, he’s very close’ and he was and the bomber, and the rear gunner couldn’t have told his skipper I was within literally twenty five feet of him and I ducked underneath him and came up on the other side and it was like that and you knew there was fighters flying around but when the searchlights went up, you saw all these things happening and when the master bomber used to call you up and say, ‘This is master bomber one calling the main stream, good evening gentlemen, we are ready to mark the target and we will drop the first flares on the target in four minutes’ and then you see the green lights lighting up on the ground or red and you knew that the target markers were flying at literally at two thousand feet over the target and being shot at and we had the greatest admiration for those guys that used to fly Lancs and four engine oh dear, I’ve forgotten what they’re called, fast aircraft.
JM: Mosquitos?
OS: Say?
JM: Mosquitos?
OS: Mosquitos, yeah. Used to fly and then you get a message that says, ‘This is the master bomber calling you, this is master bomber two’, and you knew that number one had been shot down, it was always very scary but we had the greatest admirations for these guys, you know those who’ve all got VCs because there is so many of the guys that marked the target and never came back. But to, well, we’ll never forgotten any of them.
JM: I believe you were on the Dresden raid, Owen.
OS: Which one?
JM: The Dresden raid of February 1945, the one that attracted all the publicity post-war.
OS: Oh yeah, I was on that one, yes.
JM: How did you feel about that?
OS: What, when we bombed the?
JM: Dresden.
OS: Dresden, yes. Well, I was on the second raid, and they told us this is not, this is a very, very important target and every effort must be made to help make a success of this raid because it’s where we’ve got the Russians coming in from the East, there’s a lot of transportation of German equipment there and it’s gotta be blotted out, it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be a hot raid. Now I was on the second raid there were five hundred and fifty nine on my things and when we got, it was a hell of a way to go as well, it took us I think six hours to fly down there at night and we had a few fighters knocking about on the way down. When I get to telling this story, my American accent starts to come out so forgive me if I talk like an American occasionally. But my wonderful navigator Derrick, who was the best on the squadron said to me, ‘No [unclear] skip, I never want to look out of the window’. On this particular night I said, ‘Derrick you come out here and look at this, you will never ever see anything like this at all in your life’. I made him come out and he said, ‘My God, what on earth is going on?’ There was tremendous fires all over the area and there were so many Lancasters knocking about, you had to be careful as well and the crew, particularly the gunners, I said, ‘Keep your eyes peeled fellows you, we’re not gonna know what’s happening here, we’ve gotta get on with this job and we’ve gotta get back’. Now here we go and Derrick, my navigator, he said, ‘I’m so glad you called me out from under the canopy, weve never seen anything like this.’ We did our job but there was a long way to get home and that night we flew for ten hours eighteen minutes on that target. End of story.
JM: Could I ask you Owen, what did you, what do you feel about the way in which Bomber Command was treated by the politicians after the war?
OS: Disgraceful. Disgraceful.
JM: It must have been very difficult as, you probably looked up to Winston Churchill
OS: Oh yeah.
JM: And there he is forgetting to say anything about Bomber Command. That must have hurt.
OS: Oh, it did. We were waiting for it. Didn’t come. And Bomber Harris, well, tell you a story about him, he came up behind us one day, are we on air? We are on the air?
JM: Yes, yes.
OS: Well, I was taking another squadron, taking another crew in a transport this particular day and damn me if Bomber Harris didn’t come up with his flag on his car behind us, was waiting to get past us. When the two crews all gave him the V fingers and called him, you know, Butch Harris, we called him, and was shouting at him, ‘Butch Harris, you’re a butcher, you’re a butcher!’ and I thought, I said, Shut up chaps, you’re gonna get ourselves in a load of a trouble here’, here comes my American accent, I can feel it, and the guy came up alongside us, they were all giving him the V fingers and I knew he was gonna pull us over, but he didn’t, he drove on. And that was an experience.
JM: So you’re saying that Harris was not popular with the aircrews?
OS: Oh yeah, that’s what we used to call him, Butch Harris, Butch Harris. And end of story.
JM: Okay.
OS: I was just going to say that a pal of mine on the squadron, lovely guy but I couldn’t believe that he was married with two children. I never mentioned it to him because I thought it would undermine his confidence but to think of him with, married with two children, he lived in Hull apparently, but he was a good pal of mine on the squadron, we used to play snooker together, we used to go out together, he had some frightening experiences like I did, had a lot in common, and on one particular occasion [laughs], just springs to my mind but, he and I were on leave at the same time and we arrived at three o’clock in the morning in Gainsborough and met by chance and we normally stayed in the local pub overnight waiting for a taxi to take us back to the squadron which was about nine miles away and on this particular night [laughs], it was a freezing cold night, we couldn’t get put up at the pub so believe it or not, but we sat in a telephone box, all night, sitting on our luggage, freezing cold and waiting for the dawn as it were so we’d get a taxi so we get back on squadron and he tapped me on the knee and he says, ‘Scotty’, he said, ‘you are awake, aren’t you?’ And I said, ‘I’m freezing’, he says, ‘So am I’, said, ‘But’ he said ‘ I want you to know’, he said, ‘You know I love you, don’t you?’ [laughs] and he made me laugh so much but he was that sort of guy and I missed him dearly because I came back on from another leave in the transport that brought me back, they told me the bad news that he never came back and he was a lovely guy. And I’ve never forgotten him. End of story.
JM: How did you feel as the end of your tour approached, were you and the crew nervous about whether you would complete or did you just take it a day at a time?
OS: Well, when we finished you mean?
JM: As you were approaching the end of your tour.
OS: Approaching the end of the tour?
JM: Mh.
OS: I got my logbook there with it all in. We are not on air, are we?
JM: Yes.
OS: We are on air?
JM: Yes.
OS: Ask me the question again.
JM: How did you feel as you approached thirty completed operations? Were you confident that you would finish your tour?
OS: No. I was scared to death ‘cause we got away with it for so long and we only got, shall we say I remember when we got to twenty eight, the crew never mentioned it though we were very tight-lipped about it, scared to death really, oh my God, we got this far, we’re gonna get knocked off tonight and on one occasion we were briefed for a bash, as we used to call it, and this officer came past me and he was in tears, he was absolutely throwing, he was absolutely drenched in tears, looking dead ahead he never saw me. I knew the guy, he was a fellow officer, he never came back that night. It was like that. And so the last two were very scary, very scary indeed and it was still intense activity full volume, you know, when you get a thousand Lancasters all going to the same target, it was absolutely terrifying but you had to keep your gut, you had to keep yourself in tight and you had to not think about it too much and the you used to dread going in the briefing room to see what was the, see what the target was and you know when it came up, you knew the bad ones and, oh my God, we’ve gotta go there tonight and I remember on one occasion, my batman woke me up, he says, ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you but you’ve missed the briefing you’re on. They forgot to tell you.’ They forgot to tell me that there was a raid on. And I climbed out of bed and put my flying boots on and eventually my batman took me out to the aircraft, the engines were running and my flight engineer had started the engines, and in the briefing when they called my name, they called my name, ‘Yes, I was available, I was there’ but I wasn’t and I got in the aircraft, the engines were running and I taxied out and took off and I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, someone tell me where we are bloody well going!’ And they said, ‘We are going to—' oh dear, hot target, I’ve forgotten the name of it for the minute, because I was going down the runway and I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, someone tell me where I am going!’ And when they told me, my God, it was some, something, I’m getting a bit worked up talking about it but never forgot it that night and that was somewhat typical of how life was on the squadron.
JM: You were all brave men but did you have any experience of any men for whom it was too much?
OS: Yes.
JM: And they refused to fly? Could you tell us what happened?
OS: Well, I had one good chap that I knew very well, he came to my room one night and said, ‘Scotty, can I talk to you?’ I said, ‘Of course you can.’ Lovely guy. He says, ‘Scotty, I have decided that I can’t go on, I can’t do it.’ And I said, ‘If you have decided that you know what you gotta do.’ He said, yes. I hate the thought of it, Lack of Moral Fibre, as soon as you said you couldn’t go, you were marked straight away, LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, and it was a disgrace and he eventually, well, you see, if you did that, they posted you from the squadron straight away and they sent you peeling potatoes or something and it was marked on your logbook, Lack of Moral Fibre, couldn’t go through with it. This guy went through with it, I didn’t see him after that, a lovely guy but you see, there weren’t many that had the courage because they hated the idea of the expression Lack of Moral Fibre and that’s why it was put that way to prevent them from doing it and in other words so many thought about and nearly did it and didn’t and carried on and got killed. But that’s how life was on squadron.
JM: When the war was over, did you think about staying with the Royal Air Force or were you very anxious to go back to your civilian life?
OS: I was anxious to go to civilian life and what I did was you could apply to have an extension of six months on your term of office so what I wanted to do really was become a commercial pilot and bearing in mind that I was very fond of the sea because you know I was in the merchant navy as a young boy, fifteen, and with my experience in flying boats, my hopes were that I could get myself a commercial position flying flying boats. So I asked for an extension of six months, I was then transferred to another squadron and there are stories I could tell you about that. So for six months I had time to think about civilian life, I got married et cetera et cetera and I applied to British BOAC British Overseas Airways and then I sent an application form but I wasn’t successful, that’s how it was, but during that time, when I was with, I went to another squadron because my own squadron was disbanded and there’s lots of stories I can tell you about that, but for the moment I think I’ll shut down.
JM: Owen Scott, thank you very much for sharing your wartime experiences with me for this recording, it’s been a privilege to listen to you. Thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Seymour Owen Scott
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Julian Maslin
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AScottSO150904
Format
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01:15:21 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Seymour Owen Scott (usually refered to as Owen) served as a Lancaster pilot during the war. Mentions always having a passion for flying since he was little boy. Remembers training in Canada and the United States to become a flying boat pilot in Coastal Command and then surprisingly being assigned to Bomber Command. Mentions various service life episodes: converting onto heavy bombers in England; a flight engineer being posted from the squadron for concealing his hearing loss; losing an engine on the last operation on the submarine pens in Holland. Gives a detailed account of a harrowing emergency landing with a hung up bomb. Remembers a frightening experience with a New Zealand instructor while training on Halifaxes. Gives a vivid description of the dangers the Lancaster crews faced during an operation. Mentions a brief encounter with Arthur Harris and a case of Lack of Moral Fibre.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
170 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Catalina
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Hemswell
searchlight
training
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cothliff, Ken
Ken Cothliff
K Cothliff
Description
An account of the resource
486 items in 12 sub-collections. The collection concerns Ken Cothliff's research on 6 Group Bomber Command and contains an interview with Adolf Galland, documents and photographs. Sub-collections include information on 427 Squadron, 429 Squadrons, Gerry Philbin, Jim Moffat, Reg Lane, Robert Mitchell, Steve Puskas and logs from RAF Tholthorpe.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ken Cothliff and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Cothliff, K
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Adolph Galland
Description
An account of the resource
General Adolph Galland remembers his early life and subsequent career as a Luftwaffe pilot. Recounts various episodes: flying gliders as a young boy; changes in Luftwaffe fighting tactics during the Spanish civil war; the Luftwaffe refraining from engaging Fighter Command as to bomb London; arguments he had with Herman Göring and other high-ranking officers over the conduct of war. Explains how the Allies day and night operation strategy forced the Luftwaffe to build up a night-fighter force, previously non-existing. Tells of his brothers and their military careers. Remembers his encounter with Group Captain Douglas Bader. Compares technical performance of German and British aircraft, particularly Fw 190, Me 262 and Spitfire. Discusses the downsides of the planned 162 aircraft. Remembers the struggles to turf wars to rebuild the Luftwaffe at the end of both World Wars.
This item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
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Peter Schulze
Format
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Transcription of 01:55:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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VGallandAJF[Date]
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
France
Spain
Norway
Malta
Russia (Federation)
Germany--Hamburg
Rights
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This content is a transcription of a video interview taped by a third party. It is available here as derivative work under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Ken Cothliff
David Tappin
Conforms To
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Pending review
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Interviewer: General Galland, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum, may I thank you for granting us this interview. It is greatly appreciated.
AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
Unknown interviewer: General Galland, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum, may I thank you for granting us this interview. It is greatly appreciated.
AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
I: I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]
bombing
Fw 190
Goebbels, Joseph (1897-1945)
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 163
Me 262
perception of bombing war
Spitfire