Chris Johnson]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Chris Johnson]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Hampshire]]> Wales--Milford Haven]]> Mike Connock]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Canada]]> Great Britain]]> Indonesia]]> Singapore]]> Japan]]> Indonesia--Java]]> Japan--Nagasaki-shi]]> 1941]]> 1942]]> Bruce Blanche]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Royal Air Force. Coastal Command]]> Belgium]]> Great Britain]]> Germany]]> Belgium--Brussels]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> 1941-02]]> 1944]]> 1945-01-18]]> Chris Brockbank]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Algeria]]> Great Britain]]> North Africa]]> Tunisia]]> Algeria--Algiers]]> England--Dorset]]> England--Nottinghamshire]]> England--Yorkshire]]> 1940]]> 1941]]> 1942]]> 1945]]> Sue Johnstone]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Sue Smith]]> Peter Schulze]]> Carolyn Emery]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> Germany]]> 1944]]> 1945]]> John Wells]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Carolyn Emery]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> England--Cambridgeshire]]> Northern Ireland--Belfast]]> Northern Ireland--Donaghadee]]> Great Britain]]> 1945]]> Germany. Wehrmacht Luftwaffe]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> deu]]> Text]]> Text. Service material]]> Royal Air Force]]> United States Army Air Force]]> Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe]]> 1942]]>
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.]]>
Peter Schulze]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> ID: Die ersten Erinnerungen, als Baby kann ich natürlich nicht, darüber kann ich nichts sagen. Die richtigen Erinnerungen beziehen sich auf einen Urlaub an der Ostsee den mein Vater organisiert hatte und ich dort versucht habe das Schwimmen zu erlernen. In Berlin ist es ganz schlimm gewesen dass meine Mutter plötzlich an Diabetes 1 erkrankte und [unclear], die musste morgens, mittags und abends spritzen auch der, ehm, Ernährungsplan wurde vollkommen umgestaltet, es gab so viel Gemüse so gut es ging, bis in die Kriegszeiten hinein ging das alles ganz gut. Meine Mutter hatte, is gut [unclear] worden in dem Krankenhaus Lazarus in Berlin. Ich selbst bin mit sechs Jahren eingeschult worden in Pankow und habe dort vier Schuljahre erlebt und bin dann in die Mittelschule im selben Ort überwiesen worde. Dort, das ist dann nachher in meiner Erinnerung was die Schulzeit angeht nicht so schön, die erste Stunde [unclear] immer ausgefallen ist und dabei, bei Hitler angeordnet worden ist dass immer mehr Sport betrieben werden musste. Ich war eine verhältnismäßig gute Schülerin mir hat es nichts, es ist mir nicht schwer jefallen. Mit acht Jahren bin ich sehr schwer an Nierenwassersucht erkrankt und war zehn Wochen im Krankenhaus. Dort musste ich hungern aber ich habe alles überstanden. Ich bin sehr zufrieden dass meine Lehrerin mich nicht hat sitzenlassen sondern mich sehr gefördert hat und ich weiter den Schulunterricht so weiter folgen konnte. [pauses] Der Einschnitt, was mein früheres Leben betrifft, ist ja die Anmeldung zu den Jungmädeln. Mein Vater war Beamter und ihm wurde nahegelegt, zu einer Nationalsozialistischen Organisation mich anzumelden. Dort wurden Heimabende durchgeführt aber schnell fand man heraus dass ich gar nicht für die Heimabende so wichtig bin sondern ich spielte Flöte und wurde der Jugend Musikschule zugeteilt dass ich immer nach Berlin fahren würde, ich kriegte sogar das Fahrgeld für eine Tour, dass ich da Volksmusik durchjeführt habe. Weiterhin, was die Jungmädelzeit angeht, [pauses] ist ein Einschnitt dass ich mich stark gewährt habe dem BDM überführt zu werden. Das ging nur dass ich mich bereit erklärt habe, einen Gesundheitskurs durchzuführen. Das habe ich gemacht und blieb dann bei den Jungmädeln auch auf Fahrten immer, ehm, die ich begleiten musste, das war nicht schlimm, es waren keine Grossen Unfälle dabei. Was, die heutliche Umgebung in Pankow war so dass ich von meinen Eltern angehalten wurde, Sonntags immer zum Kindergottesdienst zu gehen. Ich bin Evangelisch und mit vierzehn Jahren konfirmiert worden. Das, ein Unterschied gab es zwischen der Beteiligung in der Kirche und zur selben Zeit war denn Appell auf dem Marktplatz in Pankow. Ehm, von den Jungmädeln ist noch zu sagen dass ich die Fahrten eigentlich nicht mal mitmachen konnte weil mein Vater ja das viele Geld brauchte um Mutter vom Krankenhaus, in dem Krankenhaus Aufenthalt zu bezahlen denn nur von der Krankenkasse ist die Mutter ausgesteuert worden, des gib’s heute nicht mehr, aber alles andere wurde bezahlt, Plaster und Zahnsachen, alles wurde bezahlt, nur alles was Diabetiker angehen, wurde ausgesteuert. Die Zeit vergeht und ehm, [pauses] ab ersten September sind wir auf dem Schulweg angehalten worden zuhause su gehen weil der Krieg ausgebrochen ist. Am ersten September war keine Schule und die Verordnung mit der Verdunkelung wurde einjeführt, es ist noch lustig in meiner Erinnerung dass die Straßenbahnfenster zujemalt wurden sind, ein kleiner Schlitz gab etwas ganz spärlich Licht in die Straßenbahn. [sighs] Meine Schulzeit ist dann beendet worden in Berlin und ich kam auf die Lehrerinnenbildungsanstalt nach [unclear. [unclear] war ein Polnisches Dorf das die Deutschen ja im Wartheland besetzt hatten. Die Lehrerinnen waren verschieden bis und Allgemeinbildung sehr bemüht. Wir haben viel gelernt, ich bin sehr zufreiden über die erste Zeit bis dann ein SA-Mann die Leitung übernehmen sollte und wir Fahnenappelle hatten. [pauses] Auch Gedenkstunden wurden abgehalten. [pauses] Was ist, jetzt weiss ich nicht, was Sie interessiert. In den Ferien bin ich ja nach Berlin jekommen und diese Zeit waren dann manchmal Bombenangriffe. Die, [pauses] in Pankow wo ich groß geworden bin ist nicht viel passiert zunächst. Nur in den späteren Kriegsjahren denn wurde aufgerufen das wenn Brandbomben auf der Strasse lagen die entsorgt werden mussten. Da habe ich auch Handschuhe anjezogen und wie angedacht war, die Bomben in die Vorgärten geworfen. Ich weiß es nicht, aber ich bilde mir ein, noch heute, sie liegen dort, im tiefen Sand die Brandbomben aus der Kriegszeit. Ich legte dann im April ‚44 die erste Lehrerprüfung ab. Dass bedeutete dass wir als ausgebildete Lehrkräfte unser Praktikum in ländlichen Gebieten ausführen sollten. Inzwischen war die Evakuierung durchgeführt von den Berliner Kindern und ich kam nach Ostpreußen, nach Siegfriedswalde, einem kleinen Ort in Ostpreußen. Heute heißt es anders. Das ist meine erste Schule. Ich bin später mit Leuten dorthin jekommen und habe die Schule auch später noch besucht. Der Lehrer ja war ja, Hauptlehrer war einjezogen und ich hatte die Klasse 3 und 4 und die ganz kleinen Anfänger. [pauses] Es ist in ein Interview vielleicht interessant, dass ich mit den Goten [?] Sport machte und die gerne Brennball spielten. Und ich hab es noch heute in Erinnerung, wenn um zwölf die Kirchenglocken läuteten, legten die die [unclear] nieder, den Ball nieder, sie hockten und knieten und beteten erstmal ein Weilchen bis die Glocken zu Ende waren und spielten dann wie als wäre nichts gewesen war ihr Spiel weiter und hatten dann Sport. Ich wurde, es gab wohl eine Verordnung die ich nicht genau kenne, dass ich als so junge Lehrerin nicht in, alleine auf’n Dorf unterrichten sollte sondern in einer Stadt, Heilsberg, in einer Katholischen Knabenvolksschule von einem Rektor pädagogisch betreut werden sollte. Das hat auch so dann, ist auch so gekommen dass ich nach Heilsberg in die Katholische Knabenvolksschule kam. Da ist auch eine Erinnerung, dass mich der Direktor der Klasse vorgestellt hatte und dann gegangen ist und ich nun weiter für die Schulklasse verantwortlich war. Die Schüler beteten und es ist ein furchtbares, ein Schock gewesen, dass sie jetzt jesagt haben: ‘Erlöse uns von den Bösen, oder Übel, Heil Hitler, Jesus Christus, gestern und heute‘. Dass dazwischen Heil Hitler jerufen wurde, dass hat mich so schockiert, ich wusste gar nicht wie ich mich benehmen sollte. Jedenfalls habe ich denn dies zur Kenntnis jenommen, die Kinder waren daran jewöhnt, fanden gar nichts dabei, ich war so schockiert, ich weiß gar nicht was ich im ersten Moment da jemacht habe. Die Evakuierungszeit ging zu Ende [pauses] und wir kamen weiter wieder nach Berlin zurück, wie war, jetzt weiß ich nicht mehr.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an das Jahr?
ID: In Berlin bin ich bis 1944 jewesen und wurde dann erneut evakuiert ins Erzgebirge. Weil dort auch angeblich Berliner Kinder evakuiert waren. Aber ich wurde vom Schulrat einjeteilt in die Volksschule nach Reichstädt, Kreis Dippoldiswalde. Und dort habe ich dann diese auch wieder, und da [unclear] das war ein langes Dorf, sieben Kilometer lang, im Oberdorf hatte ich die größeren Schüler und im Niederdorf habe ich die kleineren Schüler gehabt. Das ging ziemlich planmäßig bis die Russen kamen. 1945 kamen die Russen und eine, die Leute haben, die Bauern haben denn die Fahnen, die weißen Fahnen rausgehängt dass sie sich ergeben. Der, das [unclear] war aber auf‘n Feld und hat nicht die Fahne rausjehängt und der wurde dann gleich von den Russen erschossen. Die Russen zogen ab und dann kamen die Polen, die haben viel geräubert und zwischendurch war wieder Russische Besetzung. Wir, ehm, etwas für Fremde Lustiges, möchte ich hier einfügen, die Kinder waren ja gewöhnt, mit Heil Hitler zu grüßen und den Arm zu heben, und da hab ich den Kinder gesagt, sie sollen ihre Milchkannen immer in die rechte Hand nehmen, damit die gar nicht erst in Versuchung kommen, [laughs] den Arm zu heben. Das haben die gerne gemacht und auch sich daran gewöhnt. Die, ach, ich hab ja vergessen zwischendurch, den großen Luftangriff zu erwähnen. Ich hatte ein kleines Gerät, mit dem ich Rundfunk, wenn man einen Draht an die Heizung machte, dann ist der Kontakt, mit dem man konnte Radio hören. Und da konnte ich immer hören, Bomber über Hannover, Braunschweig, Berlin undsoweiter. Und eines Abends war kein Kontakt da und meine, und wir waren um den [unclear] zu erhalten, guten Empfang zu erhalten im Dachgeschoss des Hauses und, uhm, ich guckte raus aus’m Fenster und sag, ach Frau Kriche, Frau Kriche, der Wald brennt! Frau Kriche guckte auch, da war ja alles, alles hell, wie Tannenbäume, und das war aber kein Wald sondern zweiundzwanzig Kilometer entfernt war die, waren die Tannenbäume die die Engländer auf Dresden jeschüttet haben und dort war dann der wirkliche, der Brand am 13 Februar 1945 war des, ganz, ganz schlimm. In den nächsten Tagen kamen denn schon die Nacht die Leute auf Leiterwagen, in Decken gehüllt, die ausjebombt waren in Dresden und nun auch in den Bauernhöfen verteilt wurden. Ich wohne in einer, ehm, nicht im Betrieb [unclear] Bäckerei. Die Frau, die Bäckerfrau die hat zwei Leute aus Dresden auch aufjenommen, nee, müssen. Und ich war, die Ausjebombten wurden auch in den Schulen verteilt. Die Schule war jeschlossen und ich war dabei, entweder zur Betreuunung die vielen Leute die in der Schule oder irgendwo untergebracht wurde, dass sie eher irgendwie betreut wurden. Und denn habe ich Listen geschrieben, wer woher kommt, dass die weitergeleitet wurden, dass die Leute denn auch richtig betreut würden. Ich komme wieder zu nach vorne, was mich angeht, dass ich versucht habe, mich zu schützen in den, mit den anderen Frauen nachts in den Scheunen, dass die Russen kamen. Aber die Russen haben Heugabeln genommen und dann haben die Kinder aber geschrien und so wussten die Russen jenau wo wir Frauen versteckt waren. Da habe ich mich versucht abzu, ganz ist mir auch jelungen abzuhauen von den Frauen und [pauses] ich weiß gar nicht mehr ganz genau wie ich das jeschafft habe, der Mann der bei mir, uns im Hause, der Ausjebombte aus Dresden, der hat mir ‚ne Zeltbahn und ‚ne Decke mitgegeben, dass ich mich in einer fast Baum oder Felsenhöhle unter verkrochen habe. Der Mann brachte mir einmal am Tag was zu essen und als es wieder ruhiger wurde und ich wieder im Hause denn jewohnt habe, da habe ich mich bemüht, was zu schaffen, dass die Leute, die Leuten hatten ja erst keine Lebensmittelkarten, nur was die Bauern hatten wurde verteilt und die Leute, die keinen Bauernhof hatten, die waren nett, die haben alle verteilt und vergeben [?]. Ich bemühte mit zu arbeiten mit den anderen jungen Frauen, es war ja Mai Heuernte und denn, die, ich war ja nicht so flink, die Bauernmädchen haben mir sehr geholfen dass ich immer in der Reihe mitgehen konnte und dann habe ich für den Mann der bei uns wohnte Sauerapfel in die, [pause] ehm, Tasche getan, sagt man denn in die Schürzentasche getan, der wollte die zum rauchen, der hat sie des aufgehängt und hat daraus da Tabak gemacht und auch jeraucht. Ich bin eines Abends hat mich ein Russe verfolgt und dann hab ich, hab ich jehauen und bin weggerannt un die Leute haben nachher ja jeschimpft dass ich bei ihnen Unterschlupf gefunden habe. Dass der mir nichts anjetan hat, dass ich verschohnt geworden bin von dem starken Russen. Ich, ich bin kein guter Läufer, aber ich hab des jeschafft dass ich irgendwo mich verkrochen habe im Keller, ich weiß nicht mehr alles genau, wie des nachher weiter gegangen ist, jedenfalls hat der Russe von mir gelassen [cries] Dass man rumjehorcht hatte, es gehen wieder Züge, die Leute auf Güterwagen, wie die Russen so alles arrangiert haben dass die Züge wieder weiter fuhren. Da habe ich mich bemüht, einen Passierschein zu kriegen dass ich wieder in meiner Heimat kam nach Berlin [gasps]. Dresden Neustadt war im Abteil ein Deutscher, der auch nach Berlin wollte und mir mit meinem Koffer ein bisschen jeholfen hat und wir mussten in Riesa alle nachts raus, der hat mir geholfen mit Quartier in Riesa und bis zum anderen Tag wieder weiter. Da hab ich es mit anderen Leuten jeschafft, wie es damals üblig war, auf das Dach des Güterwagens zu kommen. Hier waren glaub ich fünf oder sechs Leute, ich weiß nicht mehr, die auf dem Dach jelegen haben und Richtung Berlin weitergefahren sind. Und mit einmal schreit, schreit es und der Zug bremmst. Ich hab es nicht jesehen aber jehört dass ein Mann da an einer Brücke den Kopf gegen gestoßen ist und der Kopf weg war. Die Leute haben des alles erzählt, wenn ich es jetzt sage, es war, ich habe es nicht gesehen aber es war furchtbar, der Gedanke dass ein Mann ‚n Kopf verliert weil der Zug da unter der Brücke jefahren ist. Das sind die furchtbaren Erlebnisse unterwegs. [gasps] Ich, langsam langsam merk ich dass der Zug, kenn’se, so auf der Landkarte sehen’se Lichterfelde, mussten wir alle aussteigen und zu Fuß, das ist ja dann schon Groß-Berlin und in, wie ich dahinjekommen bin, dass ich an eine U-Bahn jekommen bin, dass weiß ich gar nicht mehr. Jedenfalls bin ich mit U-Bahn bis Pankow Vinetastraße gefahren und Vinetastraße waren die Strassen, waren Leitung alle kaputt, alles war runter, das war der 9 August 1945. Da traf ich eine Tante, wie der Zufall es will, die hatte den selben Tag Jeburtstag aber ich hab des gar nicht beachtet nur ich hab sie gefragt, steht denn das Haus noch? Ich wusste ja nicht jenau ob meine elterliche Wohnung noch ist, ich wollte ja in die Gegend nach Hause und das stimmte, das war nicht, hatte nur einen Artillerietreffer. [gasps] Ich schreite zurück, die Bombenzeit war und meine Verwandten waren in Berlin ausgebombt und wohnten bei ihrer Schwester in einer zurechtgemachten doch wiederbewohnbaren Wohnung in Berlin Ramlerstraße. Aber meine Tante [pauses] wohnte auch dort, die hat aber richtig kalkuliert, die Wohnung in Pankow wird besetzt, Vater ist bei der Feldpost in Frankreich, Mutter ist verstorben, die Tochter die da wohnte ist evakuiert, die Wohnung war leer, und da hat meine Tante richtig gehandelt, sie ist mit der Oma [unclear] nach Pankow in die Wohnung gezogen. Und wie ich jetzt erzählt habe dass ich, nach’m, als der Krieg zu Ende war, dort auch untergekommen bin ist schwierig jewesen, ich sollte ja keinen Zuzug nach Berlin geben aber meine Großmutter ist mit mir bei der Polizei jewesen und hat durchjedrückt, dass wir drei zusammen wohnen oder dass jemand anders beeinträchtigt wurde. Und da kriegte ich zuerst keine Lebensmittelkarten, weil ich keine Arbeit hatte, kriegte ich keine Lebenskarte, [unclear], und weil keine richtige Wohnung nicht angegeben war, wurde ich auch auf dem Arbeitsamt erstmal nicht registriert und dann kriegte ich, und auf dem Arbeitsamt haben sie mir, ich kriegte einen Ausweis und mit dem bin ich denn zum Schulrat nach Pankow jegangen. Und versuchte als Schulhelfer wie es damals war dass man erste Lehrerprüfung hatte und als Schulhelfer einjesetzt wurde denn die Nazionalsozialistischen Lehrer waren ja alle entlassen und man suchte Lehrer. Der Schulrat war irgendwie nett, ‚Aber ich hab schon so viele aber in Ihren Unterlagen steht doch Sie haben doch in Reinickendorf Ihre Ausbildung weiterjemacht. In Reinickendorf, versuchense mal dort‘. Un das habe ich jemacht. Da bin ich in Reinickendorf eines Morgens ganz früh und habe mir die Adresse ausjesucht und der Schulrat der dort war der sagte: ‚Ich schreibe Sie ein, aber der ganze, wer weiß ob Sie anjenommen werden, Sie waren auf der Lehrerbildungsanstalt, das ist ja ein, konzentriert gewesen nationalsozialistisch ausgerichtet‘. Ich sage: ‚Wir hatten ja normalen Unterricht, ich habe ja, des Abitur, ehm, nicht mit Latein sondern für das Fach war Pädagogik und, na ja, die Ausbildung‘. Jedenfalls hat der Magistrat mir eine Stelle zugewiesen im Bezirk Reinickendorf, Auguste-Viktoria-Allee bin ich eingewiesen worden. Da bin ich den ersten Morgen am 13 September 1945 bin ich von Pankow ganz früh los gelaufen, dass ich da vor der Schule jestanden hab, dass der Hausmeister aufjemacht hat und ich mich da vorjestellt hab. Da wurde ich eingewiesen für die dritte, vierte Klasse, da sollte ich rechnen, rechnen geben, heute sagt man Mathematik aber damals sagte man rechnen. Und ich habe aber [pauses] vorher [gasps] in der Nacht in der Evakuierungszeit [pauses] wo ich evakuiert wurde, musste ich die Wohnungen aussuchen wo die Kinder gemeldet waren die zu der Schule gehörten, ob die evakuiert waren. Wenn die nicht evakuiert waren, dann mussten sie sich immer alle zwei Tage in der Schule Schulaufgaben abholen und da war ich ja auch. Und denn, da habe ich einen Lehrer kennengelernt der dann in der Nachkriegszeit, wie ich des wusste, kann ich nicht mehr sagen, jedenfalls Herr Stock war inzwischen Rektor an der Hausotter-Schule in Reinickendorf und wohnte im Grindelbergweg [sic] und dort habe ich ihn aufjerufen. Und der, der erzählte mir, er kann mich doch jebrauchen, und der hat erreicht, dass ich nicht nach Auguste-Viktoria-Allee den weiten Weg nach entfernt fast in Wittenau machen musste sondern dass, sie haben da keine Vorstellung, ist Pankow und Reinickendorf det nebenander die Bezirke und ich wohnte hier und hier war die Schule [unclear] wo der Rektor war. Da hab ich des von da, brauchte ich nur vierzig Minuten dass ich da die Schule und da habe ich eine gute Zeit erlebt mit dem Rektor der sich große Mühe gegeben hat dass ich auch für die Prüfungen undsoweiter, ehm, weiterjebildet werde und ich hatte eine erste Klasse, laut zweihunderfünfzig kleine Mädchen. Wenn Sie alte Schulgebäude kennen, das waren immer Bänke, zwei Plätze und unter einem langen Balken waren die mit einander verbunden. So, nun hatte ich aber nicht so viele Plätze, musste ja, habe ich eingeteilt dass die Mädchen zwischendurch auf der Mittelbank, dies Verbindungslinie gesessen haben und so schlau war ich ja, die können nicht zwei Stunden da sitzen, des habe ich denn nach meiner Erinnerung so ungefähr, nach ‚ner halben Stunde, dreiviertel Stunde haben wir ein Lied gesungen und dann wechselte, die letzte Reihe kam dahin, alle ein Platz weiter dass die sich immer da in Bewegung fanden. [sighs] Ich hab ja gesagt dass ich, wir denn in Pankow wo ich wohnte, nicht ausgebombt waren und ich hab im Schreibtisch vom Papa altes Papier jefunden, ich hab noch heute so’ne Idee, immer Papier, die Blöcke aufzuheben. Jedenfalls hab ich die kleingeschnitten dass die Mädchen von zu Hause irgend’n Stiff oder irgendwas mitbrachten dass wir anjefangen haben, [unclear] zu schreiben, damals noch Deutsche Schrift. [pauses] Eine Episode, erste Klasse sogenannte Schreibschrift wurde damals eingeführt für die Kinder und ich habe an der Tafel, ich hatte ja Kreide [unclear] ausgebombt war, wir hatten ja Kreide in Pankow, habe ich versucht einen Elefanten an die Tafel zu malen und den Rüssel so einzuschwingen dass es E war und die Kinder mussten alle sich bewegen, und det E nachmachen undsoweiter. Die setzen sich wieder hin und in dem geht die Tür auf und der Rektor kommt rein und sagt: ‚Frau Denull, Sie sind hier im Parterre, Sie sind die erste die Glass kriegen‘. Es war ja alles kaputt, wir hatten ja Pappe und im Sommer war ja etwas frei dass Licht reinkam aber der hatte ‚n Glaser, das ist viel zu weit, brauch’s ja nicht zu erzählen, jedenfalls dreht der sich um, guckt an die Tafel und mach ein komisches Gesicht, ‚Frau Denull, Sie kommen in der großen Pause zu mir ins Amtszimmer‘. Ich denk, die Kinder die waren so anständig, die sind aufgestanden gleich als er da reinkam, guten Morgen und so. Die Kinder haben mir ja angenommen dass ich wat jemalt habe aber der [unclear] der wusste nicht wat an der Tafel war. Da können Sie sehen wie ich zeichnen kann, ich kann nicht zeichnen. Die Zeit vergeht regelleer, [pauses] ich bin ja mit der Klasse weiterjegangen, hatte eine sehr nette Kollegin die hatte die Parallelklasse erste Klasse. Wir haben gemeinsam Lehrspaziergänge jemacht aber 1947 war hier in Berlin im Herbst eine Epidämie mit Spinaler Kinderlähmung. Es, ich war erkältet aber es fehlten schon andere Lehrer und ich habe mich doch zur Schule geschleppt und der Rektor der hat mich nach Hause jeschickt und ich legte mich im Bett und meine Grossmutter, die ist dann zum Arzt jegangen und als er denn kam, da sagte er: ‘Bewegense mal den rechten Arm’. Ich konnte nicht, ich hab im Bett jelegen und konnte nichts bewegen, weder Beine noch Arme. Dann hat er des hochgehoben und hat wat ausgefüllt, dass ich ins Krankenhaus kam. Und ich muss meinem lieben Gott danken, der Herr war katholisch, der hat mich ins Berliner [unclear] Krankenhaus überwiesen. Das war auch ein Schock, es war ein schöner Tag, ich konnte ja nun nimmer sehen und so aber bewegen konnte ich mich nicht aber hören konnte ich ja und musste Haupthaus und wo die Krankenstation sind, ist über’m Hof, da wurde ich abgestellt auf’n Hof mit’ner Bahre und wurde gesagt, ja, die Frau die kommt nach Zimmer eins, im Parterre aber da muß es desinfiziert werden, da war Ruhr, da war’n Ruhrkranke, [unclear] es dauert Moment dass Sie, [unclear], Kontrolle dass sie keine Keime hat, und da wurde ich eingeliefert und gleich den nächsten Morgen wurde ich punktiert da haben sie mich umjedreht und aus’m Rückenmark das [unclear], da musste ich, habe Ich ja auch gemacht, ganz vierundzwanzig Stunden ganz steif liegen und ich habe denn was in Mund gekriegt, ich weiß nicht mehr jedenfalls ist es wieder zurückgegangen. Ich kann, die Muskeln die haben, dei Schwestern, waren ja Nonnen, die haben irgendwas gemacht, ich weiß, des weiß ich alles nicht mehr ganz jenau, jedenfalls konnte ich mich allmählich wieder bewegen. Auch nun was Lustiges, ich habe immer gerne jesungen, und ob det Wanderlieder waren oder die neusten Schlager oder Kirchenlieder, jedenfalls habe ich immer jesungen und da war ich für die Nonnen die evangelische Nachtigal. Ich wurde dann verlegt im ersten Stock im Krankenhaus, Dreibettzimmer, eine Frau war Richtung Fenster und in der Nische war’n Bett und ich war so [unclear]. Dann kam in des Bett der Nische habe ich drei mal erlebt dass die gestorben sind. Die haben des nicht überlebt. Aber ich war ja schon in Bewegung und lebte auf Infektionsstation, wenn Besuch war, denn konnte man sich verständigen undosweiter. Ich bin ja eigentlich Nichtraucher aber die Frau, die hat durch irgendwelches Sachen doch Zigaretten jehabt und Streichhölzer. Jedenfalls hat die mich jebeten ich möchte die Zigarette eher anstecken und ihr in den Mund stecken. Die war ja, auch fast gelähmt, ganz wenig konnte die sich bewegen aber ich wusste ja nicht wo ich mit dem rest hin sollte [laughs]. Das sind so Episoden. [pauses] Ich weiß nicht was ich Ihnen jetz noch sagen soll.
PS: Kann ich jetzt?
ID: Ich bin ja wieder jesund jeworden. Und wieder, ja. Was ich von dem Rektor jesagt hab, das man so Probestunden abhalten musste, da kriegt ich immer sehr gute Beurteilungen, [unclear] Bombenlehre, da hab ich auch sehr viel praktisch gemacht, mit den Kindern zur Post jegangen und was eben Praktisches nicht nur eben in der Schule aber [unclear] als ich vom Krankenhaus raus kam, als ich die Spinale vorbei hatte, da waren ja auch wieder Lektionen zu halten und da war ich immer schlecht, nichts habe ich richtig gemacht, ob nun eine Rechenstunde war oder Deutsch oder irgendwas, und da ist mein Schock gekommen dass ich die zweite Lehrerprüfung nicht bestanden habe. Ein, mein frührer Lehrer in Pankow ist in der Nachkriegszeit Dozent für die Junglehrer die in der Nachkriegszeit weitergebildet werden würden in Reinickendorf und der hat bewirkt dass ich nach Reinickendorf versetzt werde von, nach Berlin Wedding versetzt werde von Reinickendorf nach Wedding wo der der Schulrat kannte und der Schulrat der befürwortet hatte dass ich dahin kam. Und dort habe ich denn meine zweite Lehrerprüfung gemacht. [laughs] Das war ja immer noch, ich wohnte ja noch in Pankow und war ja Grenzgänger, den kennse den Ausdruck? [laughs] [pauses] Inzwischen habe ich ja mir ein Rad besorgt und bin den mit’m Rad zur Schule jefahren. Wollankstraße war Pankow die Grenze und denn war Wedding, hinter der Brücke, da fährt die U-Bahn Wollankstraße lang und hinter der Brücke währe ich doch vom Westdeutschen Zoll anjehalten, dass ich da Kaffee, den Schweden, aus Schweden kriege als bedürfte er in Osten, nein im Westen verkaufen will. Ich sag: ‘Können Sie mal nachgucken’. Das [unclear] jetzt so erlebt dass man nicht, dass der Ostpolizei dauernd kontrollierte, des war aber [unclear], das wollte ich ooch noch erzählen. Ich bin immerhin mit dem Rad gefahren, ich bin ja, als die S-Bahn ging dann auch bin ich mit der S-Bahn gefahren. Ich mußte von Pankow [unclear] in Bornholmerstraße umsteigen um nach Reinickendorf zur Schule zu kommen damals. Und hab in der Aktentasche so meine Sachen, wurde meistens nicht kontrolliert und eines Morgens werde ich kontrolliert. Bin in so’n Häuschen da rein, so’n Volkspolizist, packen Sie bitte alles aus, so ich, meine Bücher, des können Sie wieder einpacken, [pauses] und was ist das? Sie haben hier eine Waffe! Herr Kollege kommen Sie, wir müssen ein Protokoll anfertigen, hier ist die Frau, die hat eine Waffe! Ja, Waffe, was soll, soll ich Ihnen vormachen? Nee, nicht schiessen, nicht schiessen, werfense des nicht weg!. Und da hab ich ihm vorgemacht wie man eben den Ton kriegt dass er dat hier und der Kollege kam, dann sagte: ‘Sch, reiß den Protokoll kaputt, das ist ne Stimmgabel!’ Hat der, jedenfalls war der Protokoll war wieder weg. Ich konnte meinen Weg fortsetzen. Die Volkspolizei. Denn habe ich, die Mundpropaganda war, ein Antrag gestellt auf Übersiedlung nach Westberlin, als Herr Chruschtschow in Amerika war, das war Mundpropaganda, die sind nicht so streng bei der Volkspolizei und das habe ich dann jemacht mit Erfolg, dass ich denn am 28 November 1959 von Ostberlin nach Westberlin übersiedelt bin, mit [sighs] Klavier, Nähmaschine, vier Bücher, ne [unclear] Stehlampe, Oberbett, Unterbett, etwas Wäsche, des war was ich rüberbrachte. Ich hatte mich bemüht, bei einer, als Untermieter bei einer Zahnärztin, die hat einen Raum, wohnt aber woanders, da wollte ich unterkommen. Nun komm ich von West, von Ostberlin nach Westberlin mit den Möbelwagen, da war noch zwei anderen die nach Zehlendorf von Ostberlin gekommen sind auch dann, ja, aber die, weil die Zahärztin die hat sich [unclear] überlegt, die können Sie nicht aufnehmen, also, wie mir zumute war können Sie sich denken. Ich mit meinem wenigem Klimbim wo sollte ich nur auf der Straße, da hab ich angerufen beim wo ich in der Schule war in Wedding beim Rektor der möchte dem Hausmeister Bescheid sagen, das hat auch telefonisch jeklappt, so viele hatten ja war ja nicht Telefon so dass der Hausmeister den Filmraum aufmachen sollte, der den einzigen Sicherheitsschloss hat, die anderen Schulklassen hatten ja jewönliche Schlüssel und der Raum, da haben die Männer denn, des ist viel zu lang, das hat dann geklappt dass mein Klimbim da untergebracht war. Ja, nun, wo sollte ich denn nun hin? Da habe ich mich aufs Geratewohl in die Bahn, Bus jesetzt, Bus fuhr, nee, Bahn fuhr erst noch, ist egal, jedenfalls bei dem früheren Kollegen meines Vaters der ein Häuschen hatte in Lübars und die Leute die haben mich denn da aufjenommen. Bis ich bald einen Antrag stellte beim Berzirksamt Wedding [pause] nach einer eigenen Wohnung. Jetzt komm ich durcheinander, die Wohnung, [pauses] ich wohn, Moment mal, ach so, der Papierkrieg ist ja, der Bürokratische [unclear] wichtig, wo mann sich denn nur angemeldet, als Untermieter in der Schule. Ich wohnte ja so bei denen, wie war das denn? Denn habe ich durch Bekannte ‘ne Untermiete in Charlottenburg gekriegt, wa sich nicht den [unclear] und dort richtig gemeldet war. Und hier in Charlottenburg habe ich denn den Antrag jestellt nochmal auf, ehm, ne eigenen Wohnung. Und bei der Untermieterin, die war in Charlottenburg hier in der Kantstraße ne große Wohnung, die hatte noch zwei andere Untermieter. Wir waren einig wann wir kochten und wann nicht undsoweiter. Und det die Post war im Flur auf der Gardrobe und ich war ja nun zwischendurch bemüht, wenn ich was rumgehorcht hatte, wo ich überall mir selbst ne Wohnung suchen konnte, und am 31 Januar 1960 war Herr Lübcke der Bundespresident das erste Mal zu Besuch hier in Berlin und da hatten wir Schulfrei und da bin ich in Berlin, in Reinickendorf und Wedding, überall wo Reklame stand, Wohnungen, Wohnungen, Wohnungen, kleine Wohnungen und da hab ich mich auch bemüht an mehreren Stellen, war so üblich dass man mehrere versucht hat, mehrere Stellen zu nehmen, ich komme ziemlich spät nach Hause und finde einen blauen Brief auf der Garderobe und fasse ihn so an, das ist aber komisch, hat doch die Wirtin den Brief vorher vorsichtig aufgemacht und wieder zujeklebt. Die wusste vor mir dass mir eine Wohnung angeboten wurde vom Bezirksamt Charlottenburg, die wollte mich ja gerne behalten. Junge Beamtin, regelmäßig Miete, aber ich hab des denn sehr schnell gemacht dass ich mit Freundschaft [pauses] so viel Geld hatte, das hat’n Ausdruck, man musste Geld hinterlegen, dass ich diese Wohnung hier gekriegt habe, des war noch im Bau als ich mir das angeguckt habe, Entschuldigen Sie ich muß mal ganz schnell auf die Toilette. Und ich hab mich, jetzt hatte ich nur eine Couch hier, einen Tisch und mein Vater war inzwischen pensioniert in Hamburg, der war Postbeamter und kam wenn ich Ferien hatte nach Berlin. Und ich hatte, als ich hierher gezogen bin, mich anjemeldet bei der Fahrschule und [unclear] telefoniert ist bei der Verwandtschaft hab ich erzählt dass ich da hinging und mein Vater hat die ganze Verwandtschaft hinzugeredet die ist viel zu nervös, die kann nicht autofahren, dass ich bloß nicht ‘n Auto kaufe. Weihnachtsferien kommen, [pauses] und es war üblich daß ich mein Vater mit den Bus, der Busbahnhof war Stuttgarter Platz früher, heute ist er groß ausjebaut worden, damals war das Stuttgarter Platz. Ich hab dort geparkt und hol’ meinen Vater vom Stuttgarter Platz wie üblich, ja kurz, mein Vater [unclear] Straße, krumme Straße, kurzen Weg, da sag, nein, heute gehen wir bis zur Ecke, und dann mal richtig vorschriftsmäßig und da ist mein Vater, da wo ich mein Auto habe stehe, nun bleib mal bitte stehen, ich mache auf, du kannst dich hier hinsetzen. Ist es schon bezahlt? War die erste Frage von meinem Vater [laughs], der hat sich dran jewöhnt, und hat hinterher zwölf Mal die Sommerferien mit mir in Frankreich verbracht. Der hatte immer ausjearbeitet, die Franzosen haben auch Ferien, dass wir ausweichen können und immer schöne Straßen haben, der hat sich dran jewöhnt. Wat muß ich noch erzählen? Ja, es kommt, noch was wichtiges kommt noch.
PS: I will Sie, ich wollte Sie gerne eigentlich ein bisschen zurückbringen auf die, die Kriegszeit. Zum Beispiel, können Sie mir ein bisschen mehr von den Luftangriffen erinnern und
ID: Luft?
PS: Wie Sie die Luftangriffe erlebt haben.
ID: Wenn, es war sojenannte Vorwarnung [mimics the sound of the pre-raid warning], überall waren Sirenen auf’n Dach, dass die Leute sich fertig machten in Luftschutzkellern zu gehen. Ich hab es meistens bei nacht erlebt. Meine Angehörigen haben jesagt dass es auch viele Tagesangriffe waren. Dann [laughs] es war üblich dass man sich alles Mögliche übereinander zog, das war Zwiebelkleidung. Und im, im Luftschutzkeller [pauses] da war ein besonderes Erlebnis dass ich immer erzähl in Berlin war und meine Mutter in Koma war, dass sie ohnmächtig wurde war üblich dass ich ihr Zucker im Mund schob und dann kam sie wieder zu sich und einmal war schon Entwarnung, det Entwarnungslied, aber die blieb im Koma. Die Leute die bei uns im Haus wohnten, die sind alle schon in ihre Wohnungen gegangen nur die bei uns in der Etage wohnten, die Frau Kergel ist bei mir jeblieben, wir wussten ja nicht erstmal was wir machen sollten. Sie lag nur da, fast leblos und da sagt die Frau Kergel: ‘Ich geh rüber zu Luthers die den Garten da hatten’. Wo wir wohnten war ein zweistöckiges Haus aber so’n hoch [unclear] und hier waren, ehm, andere Häuser mit Gärten. [unclear], ich weiß wo die die Schubkarre haben, der, wo die Garage ist, da ist die Tür offen da hol ich die Schubkarre. Da haben wir meine Mutter in die Schubkarre jelegt, ick hatte noch’n Kissen [unclear] und dann sind wir, des ist, wen wir zu Fuß gehen, vielleicht sieben, acht Minuten, aber mit der Schubkarre war natürlich länger bis zum Pankower Krankenhaus, Galenusstraße und da haben wir die reingeschoben und da kam die Schwester und ein junger Arzt und die haben sie denn weitergenommen: ‘Wir kümmern uns um die Frau Denull’. Und wir warteten und musste ziemlich schnell wieder aufgewacht sein und die haben versucht, ihr, dass sie gehen kann. Und ich hab dann meine Mutter unter’n Arm genommen und Frau Kergel hat die Schubkarre genommen und nach Hause, dass wir nach Hause jelaufen sind. Da war ja, ja, das war denn nachher nochmal, in der selben Nacht war nochmal Alarm aber, das hat nicht lange jedauert, da ist nichts weiter passiert.
PS: Wo war das, ehm, in welchen Jahr war das?
ID: 1941 oder ’42.
PS: Sie erzählten mir dass Sie als Mädchen die Brandbomben entfernen mussten.
ID: Die? Die waren ungefähr so lang. [unclear] zwei geteilt, die waren ja, die lagen auf der Strasse so wie hier Bürgersteig ist, und wo wir wohnten war so’n Vorgarten, da hatten die Leute anjefangen Tomaten und sowas, Salat zu [unclear] und zwischen wo der Sand war, da hab ich das hingeschmissen, die anderen Leute, Stück weiter auch.
PS: Ehm, in welchen Jahr war das? Wie alt waren Sie?
ID: Na siebzehn, ja, klar, ’42 unjefähr muss det gewesen sein.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich, was Sie von denen dachten, die die Bomben abwarfen? Damals, als Sie ein kleines Mädchen waren. Haben Sie sich je Gedanken darüber gemacht?
ID: Nein, eigentlich wenig. Mann war so in seinen Kreis, Lebensmittelkarten, wo gib’s was, wo [unclear] an, was, [unclear]. [pauses] Brot vor allen Dinger, auch Fleischmarken, das war denn, nee, das in der Nachkriegszeit, doppelte Ration Tunfisch für Fleisch. Solange Krieg war, war die Versorgung für die Bevölkerung sicherjestellt, der, Hunger und sowas kam erst und ins besondere Knappheit erst in der Nachkriegszeit, hier in Berlin. Aber trotzdem versuchte man in der Nachkriegszeit hamstern zu gehen. Oder Wald roden. Aber det, nee, fragense mal jenauer noch vom Krieg, was wollense noch wissen?
PS: Also Sie stellten sich nicht zu viele Fragen wer das war der, der Sie bombardierte und, ehm, warum sie das machten?
ID: Deutschland Wirtschafts zu ruinieren, so viel hat man, na ja, so wurde propagiert.
PS; Sie hatten mir etwas von den Flüchtlingen aus Dresden erzählt.
ID: Ja.
PS: Wann war das? War das als Sie evakuiert waren?
ID: Nein, nein, die Bombennacht 13 Februar 1945. War die Bombennacht und danach sind die Dresdner Ausgebombten verteilt worden in der, es war ja eine große Stadt und da sind ja sehr viele Breslauer, Schlesier umgekommen, die von dort geflüchtet waren und in Dresden war ja eigentlich trotzdem in Deutschland, Köln, München, Berlin, Hannover, Hamburg vor allen Dingen, schon überall verbombt war, Dresden war so wie ausjenommen. Die Schlesier sind nach Dresden geflüchtet, unter denen auch sehr, da sind sehr viele auch umgekommen [unclear] in Bahnhofsnähe. Die von den, wo es so brannte, wo die flüchten konnten, die sind nach Draußen, auf die Dörfer.
PS: Aber das war damals als Sie in
ID: Als ich in, während ich in Reichstädt war.
PS: Reichstädt. Das war der erste Ort, wo Sie evakuiert waren.
ID: Das Dorf. Der zweite Ort.
PS: Der zweite Ort.
ID: Ostpreußen war der erste.
PS: Ostpreußen war der erste.
ID: Astpreißen. Astpreißen. [pauses] Meine schönste, ich war vierzig Jahre Lehrer. Das eine Jahr, Ostpreußen, ist das schönste Lehrerjahr in meinem Leben. Ostpreußen war schön, man hatte keine Disziplinschwierigkeiten, viel später mit Türken und so. Fragense mal genauer.
PS: Ehm, beschreiben Sie mir ein bisschen Ihre Rückkehr nach Berlin am Ende des Krieges.
ID: Das war wo, wo ich mit dem, erst mit dem Zug bis Riesa und von Riesa auf’m Dach mit dem Zug gefahren bin, das ist 1945, Anfang August jewesen.
PS: Aber wie haben Sie die Stadt aufgefunden? Also
ID: Wie, hier war alles kaputt. Es lag teilweise auch noch der Schutt von den Ruinen auf den Bürgersteigen. Man ging eher auf’n, auf’n Fahrdamm aber nicht überall. In Pankow weniger, in der Stadt hier, hier, Krumme Straße, überall, da lag das alles noch auf’m Bürgersteig. Auch hier, die Suhr Allee, wo in der Mitte denn nachher die Straßenbahn fuhr. Alles kaputt.
PS: Haben Sie sich damals gefragt, wie das alles, was das zu alles gebracht hat, ich meine, die Zerstörung Berlins und
ID: Ja, mein Umkreis war immer noch eng mit den Angehörigen, mit den Nachbarn. Man hat sich nicht so viel um so politische Ereignisse so gekümmert.
PS: Können Sie mir etwas von ihrem Vater erzählen. Sie hatten mir angedeutet, Ihr Vater war Gefangener in Frankreich.
ID: Nee.
PS: Nein?
ID: Nicht jefangen. Mein Vater konnte sehr gut französisch, der hat beim Ersten Weltkrieg dreiundreißig Monate in französischer Gefangenschaft und hat sehr gut, hat sich dafür interessiert, der konnte französisch, es hat kein, wenn wir verreist waren hat niemand gemerkt dass er kein Franzose ist, der sprach hervorragend französisch. 1936 im Frühjahr hat die Post geworben französischsprechende Beamte für das Olympiastadion zur Verfügung zu stellen die dort als Dolmetscher so tätig waren, und das hat mein Vater auch gemacht und am sonsten ist er Bahnpost gefahren, als ich klein, nach Hamburg in der Hauptsache. Und als es nun Krieg war, da hat mein Vater gesehen dass er noch in dem Alter war dass er eventuell als Soldat eingezogen werde könnte. Da hat er sich bemüht bei der Feldpost nach Frankreich zu kommen und das ist ihm gelungen. Mein Vater hat ein, ich hab ein schönes Bild davon, dass er das Feldpostamt, das Hauptfeldpostamt in Hamburg, in Paris aufjebaut hat, mit sehr sehr vielen französischen Frauen die zum Teil eben etwas Deutsch konnten und sonst eben des weiterleiten, die Post die kam in der Zentrale über Flugzeug nach Paris und wurde zu den anderen Soldaten weitergeschickt. Eine Episode, eine von den Damen haben, als mein Vater später mit mir in Paris spazieren gegangen sind, und ich eine, ehm, Ansichtskarte suchte, ich hinter mir hörte, Monsieur Denull, Monsieur Denull, Monsieur Denull! Mh, wer ist denn das? Eine von den Arbeiterinnen oder Telefonistinnen vom Feldpostamt Paris. Mein Vater war nur in Paris zunächst sehr sehr zufrieden, französischsprechender Deutscher in Zivil. Der hat sehr viel auch seinen Kollegen geholfen, die irgendwat ausjefressen hatten beim [unclear] dann wat zu erledigen und so. Aber es kam dann ein Befehl dass er ‘ne Uniform geschenkt bekommt. Nun war er in Paris als, hat aber immer noch sein Kontakt aufrecht erhalten wo er was besorgen konnte. Er hat dann ganz wenig versucht für meine Mutter Insulin zu besorgen konnte, Depotinsulin, aber das hat nicht viel, war ganz wenig aber er hatt, is dabei gekriegt worden dass er in Frankreich Wurst gekauft hat und nach Berlin jeschickt hat. Und wurde von Paris nach Nantes an ein anderes Feldpostamt versetzt. Und dort der Krieg ging weiter und da hatte, ja, und da hat die Deutsche Behörde ihre Postbeamten zurückbeordert zu, wie nennt man denn, Arbeitsurlaub in Berlin. Da ist mein Vater wenige Monate, ich weiß nicht wie viel, hier nochmal Bahnpost gefahren, überwiegend Hamburg. Und dann ist er aber wieder, von der Feldpost einjezogen, weil man in Nordeuropa neue Feldpostämter einrichten wollte und er war, schon ein beschriebenes Blatt, der konnte det, der machte det, wurde er nach Oulu und Rovaniemi versetzt, nach Finland. Und dort hat des, des [unclear], da ist er ja Sommer und Winter gewesen. Feldpostämter einrichten, das war seine Hauptgabe [?] und von, und als die Russen aber Finland okkupierten, ist er denn nach Böhmen versetzt worden zur Feldpost. Und im damaligen Tschechoslowakei bei Budweis ist er in Amerikanischer Gefangenschaft gekommen und war nicht lange.
PS: Und er ist dann zurückgekommen.
ID: Nach Berlin wollte er nicht. Berlin war Russisch besetzt. Da, die Männer, die kommen alle nach Sibirien. Dat hat er sich bemüht, bei einen, ist auch mit Erfolg, ist es gekrönt worden, ein Postbeamter der Gast, der eine kleine Landwirtschaft hat. Der, der hatt da den Postverkehr erst gemacht und die Briefe zu den Bauern jebracht und sowas alles gemacht. In dieser Zeit da hat es wieder anjefangen das etwas normaler wurde mit Schriftverkehr, da gab es ein Ministerialblatt, hat er mir erzählt, in dem stand, dass in Hamburg ein Postsparkassenamt eröffnet werden sollte im damaligen, das Deutsche Reich bestand aus Alten Reich und Österreich. Es gab vorher nur in Wien ein Postsparkassenamt. Als der Krieg zu Ende war, haben die Allierten Behörden und die Deutschen Behörden verabredet dass in Hamburg und in München je ein Postsparkassenamt eröffnet werden sollte, die [unclear] unjefähr die Mitte, was nach München gehört und was nach Hamburg gehört. Und da hat mein Vater das ergriffen dass er sich bemüht hat nach Hamburg das Postsparkassenamt mitzueröffnen. Dass es, als es dann fertig, am Gänsemarkt war das irgend eine Ruine die aufgebaut worden ist für des [unclear], da waren tausend Frauen und vier Männer [laughs]. Das ist dann, da ist mein Vater dann geblieben, das, das hat er mir immer gerne erzählt. Er war nur alleine, die ersten Jahre war keine Möglichkeit nach Berlin oder so zu Besuch zu kommen oder [unclear] wir hatten Verwandten im Westen, er hätte ja kommen können aber hat er nicht jemacht, dass er Weihnachten immer Schalterdienst gemacht hatte für die Postbeamten die Familie hatten. Dann war er bei der Auskunft Sportsparkassenamt [?].
PS: In Hamburg.
ID: In Hamburg. Und da ist er dann auch pensioniert worden.
PS: Sie hatten mir ganz kürzlich von den Verdunkelungs Maßnahmen erzählt, ganz am Anfang.
ID: Ja. Als der Krieg ausjebrochen war. Die, ehm, die Bevölkerung wurde aufgefordert überall wo Schulen mit Licht waren, Verdunkelungs zu machen. Viele haben sich einfach Vorhänge gemacht und Decken. Mein Vater hat denn, als er bei, doch, doch, da war er ja auch zuhause, Stangen genommen und Pappe. Meine Mutter musste dann so ein Rouleau machen, so. Aber, und als denn des mit dem [unclear] war, da, da haben wir ja alle Pappe jehabt, da habense Pappe vor die Fenster jemacht. Aber viele Leute haben [unclear] so wie Papa jemacht, da haben die Männer ein bisschen handwerklich geschickt waren, die haben [unclear] und wenn dann war ja immer so eingeteilt für mehrere Häuser war ein Luftschutzwart, der ging dann während Alarm war und guckte dass niemand irgendwo Licht hatte [laughs] denn wer da gekriegt worde, ist der dann bestraft worden.
PS: Und Sie suchten meistens Schutz vor den Luftangriffen in Luftschutzkellern?
ID: Ja, ich, davon müsste jemand mehr erzählen, der irgendwo in der Gegend wohnte, wo die Leute keinen Luftschutzkeller hatten, sondern inso’n Bunker gegangen sind. Es gab mehrere Bunker, der berühmteste ist hier am Jesundbrunnen wo da jetzt Ausstellungen sind und. Ich war auch mal in einem Bunker. Ich wollte verreisen, ja nach Reichstädt da [unclear] wollte ich, und da bin, ist Alarm jewesen und da mussten wir alle von der Straße weg in einen Bunker in Friederichshain, den hab ich kennejelernt.
PS: War da sehr viel Platz für sehr viele Leute, oder wie funktionierte das?
ID: Die, es war manchmal so voll dass diese nicht reingelassen haben, dass die auf der Straße kambiert [?] haben. Ganz schlimm muß das jewesen sein. Aber wenn, wenn Sie mich fragen, ich war nur nicht in der Gegend.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich als Hitler an die Macht kam?
ID: Da war ich im Krankenhaus, da hab ich im Krankehaus jelegen. Davon kann ich nichts sagen.
PS: Sie erinnern sich nicht and die Stimmung von damals? Also wie die Leute das so erlebt haben?
ID: Kann ich nichts von sagen, ich war acht Jahre lang, alt, kann ich nicht sagen.
PS: Sie haben das nicht so mitbekommen?
ID: Nein. Aber allgemein kann ich doch so berichten, wenn später so große Aufmärsche waren und ich meine Freundin so abgeholt habe. Da wo wir hingegangen sind. Die Eltern, ich kenne keinen von den Bekannten von meinen Schulfreunden und die Eltern, niemand war für Hitler, niemand. Man redete und man versuchte nichts anzu [unclear] öffentlich zu machen aber untereinander war keiner für Hitler. Wirklich, als ich so zehn, twölf, dreizehn Jahre war, die Leute sprachen alle gegen Hitler aber nur in der Wohnung. Offentlich ging man hin und war, grüßte mit Heil Hitler.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich an den Tag, an dem der Krieg zu Ende war? Also, der Tag der Kapitulation?
ID: Da war ich ja in Reichstädt, ja im [unclear] wo wir da gewohnt haben, mit den Leuten, Gott sei dank ist der Bombenkrieg in Berlin zu Ende. Wenn man von den eigenen Leuten gesprochen hat dass in Köln überall ooch zu Ende war [gasps] redete man nicht so. Von den eigenen, wer da getroffen war, keine Bomben mehr vielen und so. Und dass im Schloss die Leute, die Leute die da in Reichstädt im Schloss wohnten die sind, dass die nach dem Westen getürmt sind. [pauses] Der Lehrer der ja noch, als ich da in Reichstädt in der Schule war, die anderen Fächer da unterrichtete, der wurde entlassen, der wurde dann als Waldarbeiter den [unclear] worden von Russen.
PS: Noch eine Frage zu Ihrer Familie. Aus wie vielen Mitgliedern bestand Ihre Familie?
ID: Vater, Mutter, Kind. [laughs]
PS: Haben Sie noch Erinnerungen an Ihre Onklen, Tanten, ehm?
ID: Och ja.
PS: Großeltern?
ID: Besonderns wie wir zusammen gewohnt haben in Pankow mit der Großmutter und der anderen Tante die da ooch abgemeldet ist. Mama’s Schwester [gasps] Es gibt auch Sachen die ich gar nicht richtig begriffen habe damals. Meine Mutter wurde von, als meine Tante auch evakuiert war, von der Firma nach Kattowitz, die war alleine und da war jemand von der Partei da und hat jefragt ob die viele Kinder hatte. Ja, sie hatte zwölf Kinder. Ja, dann kriegen Sie ja das Grosse Mutter Kreuz. Also, die hat sich nichts dabei jedacht dass sie dat gesagt hat aber als meine Tante nach Hause kam und Oma nun erzählte wie sie, um Gottes willen, dass sie bei Hitler Großmutter, da hast du ja dem richtiges erzählt. Dass die Oma des jemacht hat, die hat sie dabei nichts jedacht als sie jefragt worden ist. Aber drei sind noch jeleben, meine Mutter [unclear], Bruno, ist der andere Sohn von Oma, also der Bruder von [unclear] und Hertha die mit ihr jewohnt hat und die denn noch viel jesorgt hat dass je da zusammen jelebt haben und wir zusammen auch jelebt haben. Eine sehr gutmütige, eine gutmütige Tante. Ich war frech manchmal zu ihr [laughs]. Das ist die nährere Verwandtschaft. Die Generation von meiner Mutter, dieser Teil ihrer Schwester Hertha, die hatten viele Kusinen. Mein Großvater, der schon ’35 jestorben ist, mütterlicherseits, ehm, der hatte viele Jeschwister und die hatten die vielen Kinder und vor allen Dingen die Mädchen unter einander, die trafen sich öfter und die haben dann erzählt dass mich, als ich Baby war, sich drum jerissen hatten, mich spazieren zu fahren ,weil meine Mutter ja schon so krank war. Na ja.
PS: Ich wollte Sie ein Moment fragen, Sie hatten mir etwas von den Bund Deutscher Mädel erzählt.
ID: Ja, BDM.
PS: Ja.
ID: Die, ab vierzehn Jahre waren die Mädchen organisiert im Bund Deutscher Mädchen und die jüngeren waren Jung Mädel.
PS: Und Sie sind aber nicht zum BDM gekommen.
ID: Ich wohl, habe mich durchgesetzt, da wollte ich nicht hin. Die haben so viel Parteiabende jehabt und Schulungsabende für Hitler und Jenossen.
PS: Also waren Ihre Eltern sehr dagegen?
ID: Ja, sehr. Papa war bei der, ich war bei der, ich weiß nicht wie weit die über Deutschland ganz Bescheid wissen, die Bekennende Kirche, das ist auch so’ne Sache. Das bezahlte man eben die Kirchensteuer ging vom Gehalt ab und Bekennende Kirche wurde dann jeschickt, da gehste rein, das ist in Pankow jewesen die Filiale wo Bekennende Kirche war, und nebenan war ein Kino und da gehste rein und du gehst hinten raus wo der Kinoausgang ist, da gehste raus. Das ist, das ist eine Sache was ich jelernt habe, rein gehen und woanders rausgehen, nicht bei Juden kaufen. Meine Mutter hat mir, hat viel jenäht, meine, na ja, ist viel zu weit, und Druckknöpfe und Gummiband das konnte man eben, kaufte meine Mutter früher immer beim Juden und ich wurde dann, als ich größer war, in die Schönhauser Allee geschickt, da gehste rein und kaufst drei Päckchen Gummiband, ich brauch des für und aber sag der Frau die soll dich woanders raus lassen. Ich bin nicht den Laden beim Juden rausgegangen sondern durch den Hauseingang.
PS: Kommen Ihnen irgendnoch andere Erinnerungen and die, ehm, an die Bombardierungen? Ist Ihnen etwas eingefallen das Sie mir vielleicht noch erzählen möchten über die Zeit der Bombardierungen?
ID: Na ja, dass durch die Bombardierungen sind auch die Bahnlinien, ehm, getroffen gewesen und die Züge fuhren ja nicht denn so, des war ja bombardiert.
PS: Und, wenn Sie jetzt zurückdenken an die Zeit, wie sehen Sie die, welche Erinnerungen haben Sie von den Bombardierungen von damals?
ID: Ich [unclear] auch wenn ich bei Bekannten bin, dass bloß nicht wieder sowas vorkommt, dass die Menschen immer versuchen anders zu leben, warum ist es wieder, da war, als der Krieg zu Ende war, der erste September Weltfriedenstag, aber ich weiß nicht wie lange. Es ist ja immer wieder Krieg gewesen, irgendwo auf der Welt ist immer wieder Krieg, furchtbar. Wenn die mich fragen, was war, das es sowas nie wieder vorkommt hier. Ich habe im Bekanntenkreis hier wohl Leute, [unclear] die hab ich als junge Leute kennengelernt aber die fragen mich immer wieder auch was früher war. Gibt andere wenn ich irgendwo höre, davon wollen wir nicht wissen.
PS: Aber haben Sie irgendeine Meinung über, von denen die Sie, die die Bomben?
ID: Die betroffen waren?
PS: Ja. Nein, die die Bomben abgelöst haben, also die
ID: [unclear]
PS: Die Engländer und die Amerikaner, also.
ID: Die Deutschen haben auch in England abgeworfen! In Canterbury zum Beispiel, in Pankow in der Kirche, in der Nachkriegszeit oder wann hatte det anjefangen? Also im Eingang, Sie kennen ja Kirchen, ehe es im richtigen Kirchenraum geht, da ist, was früher war weiß ich nicht und jefähr zweimal so groß wie [unclear] war ein Holzbrett und da wurden immer Nägel [unclear], eine Spende für Canterbury.
PS: Canterbury?
ID: Ja, in Pankow von der Kirchenjemeinde wurden Spenden jesammelt für Canterbury. Und immer wer was gespendet hatte, der sollte da einen Nagel reinmachen.
PS: Nicht Coventry?
ID: Coventry, mann, mann! [laughs]
PS: So, ich würde jetzt aufhören, das war alles sehr interssant was Sie mir erzählt haben.
ID: Ja, aber ich glaube, das wichtigste fehlt Ihnen aber ich kann nur von meinem Standpunkt, nicht weiter was weg in Brandenburg oder Potsdam war. Ja, meine Studienkameradin ist in Potsdam umjekommen bei einem Luftangriff, ja.
PS: Ah. Hat man sie, können Sie mir etwas ein bisschen mehr darüber erzählen? Also, es war eine Klassenkameradin von Ihnen?
ID: Ja, von der Lehrerbildungsanstalt.
PS: Ah.
ID: Die ist eine der ersten die gestorben ist und zwar in Potsdam.
PS: Erinnern Sie sich wann das passiert ist?
ID: April ’45. Ganz zum Schluss, wie man nur sagt, der Krieg hat ’39 anjefangen und ’45 war er zu Ende.
Ps: Erinnern Sie sich an die Umstände? Also, Sie haben das nur so erfahren?
ID: Die ist, die Bomben ist im Keller, da wo sie eigentlich Schutz gesucht haben, dort ist die Bombe reinjekommen. Wo meine Großmutter ausgebombt ist, in der Treskowstraße im Prenzlauer Berg. [sighs] Wie die Alten, ja so noch weiter [unclear], hier in der Straße sind denn waren ja auch wo Oma ausgebombt ist. Und im Keller war ein Durchbruch zum Nebenkeller. Bei ihrem Keller konnten sie nicht mehr raus, das war alles schon verschüttet, kaputt und brandte aber durch den Nebenkeller haben sie sich jerettet und meine Großmutter hatte nur ein Bein. Die anderen habe ihr jeholfen durch den Keller da durchzukommen mit einem kleinen Köfferchen wo Papiere drin waren. Des ist was ich da jesagt hab das se den für ihrer Schwester da jekommen ist, die nicht ausjebombt war. Anjebombt wurde das Haus war wohl kaputt aber die konnten wieder des bisschen renovieren dasse leben konnten.
PS: So, ich würde jetzt wirklich Schluss machen. Alles das was Sie mir erzählt haben.
ID: Ich hoffe, dass Sie nicht zu unzufrieden sind.
PS: Nein, nein, ganz und gar nicht. Ganz und gar nicht, wirklich.
ID: Kann ich Ihnen jetzt was anbieten?
PS: [laughs] Einfach ein Glass Wasser. Aber erstmal möchte
ID: Saft?
PS: Danke, aber ich möchte mich erstmal sehr recht herzlich bei Ihnen bedanken auch im Namen des Archivs und ich würde sagen ich mache jetzt.
ID: Wenn ich etwas nützen kann, gerne. Aber ich glaube es ist immer nicht, die Hauptsachen dass die fehlen, dass ich des nicht kann, auch das Wesentliche wie Sie’s gerade haben möchten zu kommen.
PS: Sie haben mir sehr viele interessante Sachen erzählt. Ich bin Ihnen recht herzlich dankbar dafür. Ja, und jetzt glaub ich, kann ich Schluss machen. Noch vielen Dank.
ID: Ich danke auch.
PS: Danke. ]]>
deu]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Germany]]> Germany--Dresden]]> Germany--Berlin]]> 1945-02-13]]> 1945-02-14]]> 1945-02-15]]>
Chris Brockbank]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Great Britain]]> England--Buckinghamshire]]> 1944-03-15]]> David Kavanagh]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Germany]]> Great Britain]]> England--Nottinghamshire]]> Germany--Hörstel]]> Germany--Leipzig]]> 1944-11-06]]> 1945-04-10]]> David Kavanagh]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Royal Australian Air Force]]> Germany]]> Canada]]> Great Britain]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> England--Yorkshire]]> Germany--Dresden]]> 1944]]> 1945]]> Peter Schulze]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> deu]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Germany]]> Germany--Berlin]]> 1945]]> Heather Hughes]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending revision of OH transcription]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Great Britain]]> England--Lincolnshire]]> 1943]]> Peter Schulze]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> deu]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Germany]]> Germany--Berlin]]> 1940]]>
This item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.]]>
Ken Cothliff]]> David Tappin]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
Unknown interviewer: General Galland, on behalf of everyone at the Yorkshire Air Museum, may I thank you for granting us this interview. It is greatly appreciated.
AG: Ok. It is my pleasure.
I: I may start with the first question. Is there a military tradition in your family?
AG: Not at all. My, we came, my family came from France, we were Huguenots. And one of this Frenchmen who came over, one Galland was, was a French captain, the chivalry, it was the only [unclear] we have as military.
I: Right. When did you first fly in an airplane?
AG: Oh, I did fly my first time when I was sixteen. I flew in gliders, not very far from my home there were some, an area in which gliding course was done. And I started there in ’20, ’28, I was sixteen years old.
I: I understand you set a record in your gilder.
AG: Ja, that’s right, that’s right. A record in endurance. This area did not have very high mountains, there were only hills and I did for more than two hours, two hours twenty minutes, something like this. This was an area record.
I: Ok.
AG: With my own plane. I got a plane when I finished, [unclear]Schule, I finished
UI2: Like University.
AG: Ja.
I: When did you decide to become a professional pilot and how did you achieve this?
AG: I did it all during my schooltime. Before I left school, I decided to be a commercial pilot and I told this one Sunday, walking with my father outside and he asked me: ‘What do you want to be later on?’. And I said: ‘I want to be a commercial pilot in an airline’. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘don’t you want to study?’. I said, ‘No, I want to make my exam as a professional pilot’. And he said. ‘You can do this, but I have not learned that this is a profession. You can teach me, do you expect a regular fee or do you fly for tips?’
[UI laughs]
AG: You can see how the times have changed. Now the airlines, they don’t like this joke. But they are making a lot of money also. And it is a fine profession. Also today, I think so.
I: So you then go from the airline directly into the Luftwaffe?
AG: No. The first year, at the end of the first year we were told that this was a commercial pilot school. The students were offered to become military pilots. We were told, commercial pilot doesn’t have good aspects for the future, but we will soon have military pilots and you can decide to switch over to the military career. I didn’t like this very much but there was no other questions. This was a strong invitation.
I: [laughs] There must have been many applications to become a professional pilot in those days.
AG: For the commercial side or the military?
I: For the military.
AG: For the military. No, we didn’t have any military organisation at that time at all, everything was, inexistent, was private, commercially or private or it was camouflaged, military.
I: The black Luftwaffe.
AG: The black Luftwaffe did start already in these days.
I: Yes.
AG: But most of the pilots were trained in Russia as you know, Lipezk, a Russian base, we had an agreement with Russia and we trained our people there.
I: Were you there?
AG: No, I have not been there. When Göring came in power, he cancelled this agreement with Russia and he started with Italy an agreement on a similar base. So, I was in the first group which was sent to Italy to be trained there, militarywise. We did not learn too much there in Italy. This agreement was not based on a good understanding between Göring and Balbo, maybe they had language problems, so the Italians did believe we were beginners and we knew already to fly. I remember one day, a French acrobatic pilot that had set up a record [unclear] inverted, invertedly and for two hours or so and we at this time did make acrobatics also there. So I decided when I was, when it was my turn to fly, I went up and go this way, I moved around the airfield all the time invertedly. To make a joke then they sent another airplane up, dropped down [laughs].
I: [laughs] Did you break the record?
AG: No [laughs]. I didn’t have fuel for this. I flew for ten minutes or so, but I showed.
UI2: What type of aircraft were you flying at that time, sir?
AG: Italian aircraft.
UI2: Italian aircraft. Macchi and [unclear].
I: When the Luftwaffe was formed officially in 1935, what was your first unit and what aircraft did you fly?
AG: When I had finished the training, I was ordered to go to the first fighter group which was built close to Berlin, in Döbritz. This was the first group of the fighter wing Richthofen, of the new fighter wing Richthofen. So, I came to this wing as, I was lieutenant, but I was released as Leutenant and we were installed again as Kettenführer.
I: Flight Commander.
AG: Ja, something like this. But, very soon later die Tarnung, the camouflage was taken away and we were made Lieutenants again.
I: I see. You would fly the Heinkel 51?
AG: No, at this time we had the Arado 65. And then we had the Arado 68 and then came the 51.
I: Heinkel 51.
AG: The second group later was set up in Jüterbog, south of Berlin, as the second group that have the 51s already.
I: Did you have any flying accidents in the early days?
AG: [laughs] I had many accidents and many damages. Sometimes they called me the millionaire of the new Luftwaffe, it was for the value of the airplanes I had damaged or destroyed.
[All laugh]
AG: But this was overdoned a little bit. I had one terrible accident, with a Stieglitz, with a biplane by doing acrobatics. I was very good in acrobatics and I had to train for flight demonstrations, which were set up in different towns and I had to show there acrobatics in the Stieglitz. And in this case I had modified the horizontal stabilizer in order to get better flight conditions in inverted flights, but this resulted that the aircraft did have a complete [unclear] conditions in spin. And I couldn’t recover, I could not recover the plane from spin earlier enough so I hit the ground in this position about 45°, this was a terrible accident.
I: I understand that after that [unclear] you are very good at passing eyetests.
AG: [laughs], ja, it is true. In this case I had, the plane had an open cockpit and I had glasses and I destroyed one eye with a splinter from [unclear] glasses and I had a damage on the eye and this resulted in a shorter sight of this eye. And I knew I had to pass a new physical and so to be sure I learnt the numbers and the, was ist Buchstaben?
I: Letters.
AG: The letters. I learned the letters from the table and I knew them by memorising them and I passed my exam very fine. [laughs]
I: The doctors they were bewildered.
AG: Yes [laughs]
I: [laughs]. Yes Can you tell us something about the airfighting in Spain with the Condor legion and just how much influence did Mölders have on evolving tactics for the Luftwaffe?
AG: [clears throat] Mölders became my successor as squadron leader and he, my squadron was equipped with 51s and we did ground attacks. And we were very successful in, we were helping the army, the Spanish army in their advances. Mölders arranged to change the missions to real fighter missions and so his, my other squadron was equipped then with 109s and Mölders started then to find a new tactic. He really invented the open flying formation, finger-four formation and he also had set up a, set up the methods to train the pilots in this way. So we flew in a very open formation, two planes at the same altitude, about onehundred, onehundredfifty meters apart
I: Apart.
AG: From the other and we moved all the time this way in the air in a very open formation. And this had the advantage that the number two could see also, could observe the airspace. In a close formation, number two and number three are seeing nothing, nothing but the guide only. So the next two they are flying from here to there also in this open formation. And this was really invented and explored by Mölders, this is his merit, is no question. By the way, was later on also a very good formation leader. We have pilots, and another example is Hartmann, Hartmann was not a leader at all, he could only fly by his own, and many pilots, Udet was also such a pilot, couldn’t lead a formation, I was told. Mölders once told me: ‘I will tell you one thing, you can become a Richthofen, you can become a new Richthofen, I wanted to be a Boelcke’, this means he wanted to fly with his head, so he was convinced that he was taktisch. And he was [unclear].
I: Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No, I was there when these people were doing [screams] this, the Olympic heroes there but I could not, I could not be pleased by looking at the athletics. So I decided to sell my ticket, sold it. I went up to Warnemünde or in the North, on the East Sea and I did chase Swedish girls, was more pleasant.
I: We have heard of your reputation. [laughs] Is another Galland legend. Did you ever fly the Heinkel 112?
AG: No.
I: Would it have been a better fighter than the Messerschmitt 109?
AG: Ja, ja, it’s no question, would have been a much better fighter than the other plane but the plane was more expensive to be built. The wing profile was changing all the time. The wing of the 109 was much more, much easier to build and for much less money to build. And this was one of the reasons why it has been decided in favour of the 109. Especially the undercarriage of the 109 was very narrow and the plane did have a terrible tendency to loop, to break out in taking off and landing, specially with crosswind. The aircraft lost an unbelievable number of planes by, of 109s by accidents during the war.
I: Would the extra range of the Heinkell had been an advantage to you in the battle of Britain?
AG: Of course, it would have been, would have been an advantage, but it wouldn’t have been decisive. The outcome of the battle would have been more or less the same because the Luftwaffe was not build and was not equipped for a battle like battle of Britain, was not build for strategic airwar. The Luftwaffe was for defense, for air defense and also for helping the army.
I: Tactical support.
AG: Ja, tactical support.
I: After Dunkirk, and the fall of France, did you think that the Luftwaffe could win the battle of Britain?
AG: No, we did not believe this, we did hope it but we learned very soon that this was not possible. Lord Dowding was a very, very cleaver man in guiding his fighters the right way and he did not use the fighters so much as Göring did. He was a much better tactician than Göring. There’s no question.
I: And yet he was sacked, he was discharged shortly after the battle of Britain by the High Command.
AG: Yes. Dowding?
I: Downing.
AG: But he came back.
I: Yes. Well, he was never honoured as he should have been for his part in the battle of Britain. Because mainly of Leigh-Mallory.
AG: Ah ja. This are [unclear] conditions and we learned during the battle that Dowding was a very, very cleaver man and Göring had the intention, first to bring the English Fighter Command down and then to bomb England and bomb London by using this medium bombers we had, the Heinkel 111 mostly [unclear] we had the Junkers 88. But the [clears throat] the Stukas had to withdrawn from the battle very soon because they detect high losses, they could not be escorted [unclear]. So the next decision in favour of the Stukas was a mistake. Another mistake was the set up of the 110 formations, what we called Zerstörer, destroyer. It was supposed to be an escort fighter, but a twin-engine fighter aircraft cannot be compared with a single engine fighter. Is always less maneuvrable and has not the acceleration, he has better armament but in fact the 110 as an escort fighter had to be escorted by single engine fighters and we had to withdraw first the Stukas, Junkers 87, and then the 110 from the battle they could not stand the too high losses.
I: Did this come as a major shock to the crews of the 110s?
AG: Ja, it was a shock, but we knew that it would come. We knew this from exercises. Before the war. We could learn in this maneuvers that the Stuka and the 110 would not, would not be used for long time to [unclear] because the performance were not. Performance were compared to single engine fighters were too low.
I: Your famous comment about the, to Göring about the Spitfires, giving you a squadron of Spitfires, you feel that perhaps would not have made the difference either?
AG: Göring came during the battle of Britain with this special train in the Pas-de-Calais and he ordered Mölders and myself to come. And he blamed us for half an hour for not performing the escort. Our bombers wanted to have the fighters sitting on their wing, on their wing tips but by doing this with the 109 we could not stay, we could not fight, we needed speed and this, our speed was not higher than the bomber formation speed, with outside bomb, so the bombs were hanging there. We had to cross over the and below the formation, but was a higher speed and the bombers did not like it. And Göring blamed us, we should sit on their wing tip, we should not leave this position, we should defend the bombers, and I told him we can only defend the bombers by being aggressive, by being offensive, we have to attack the enemy fighters. And this we can only do when we have a higher speed. And Göring said: ‘Don’t talk such a bla bla, you have the best fighter of the world, the Messerschmitt 109 and everybody knows it, this world war I fighter aircraft’. And finally after half an hour he finished this blaming and he asked Mölders: ‘What can I do to improve the fighting capacity of your wing commanders at this time?’. And Mölders said he wanted to have the Messerschmitt 109 with the more powerfull Daimler-Benz 605 M engines, that was an engine with a higher capation [unclear] and this octane 100 fuel. And Göring said to his aide: ‘Take a note, Mölders will get the first engines’. And then he said: ‘What can I do for your wing?’. And I said: ‘Please Reichsmarschall equip my wings with Spitfires’. [laughs] I do not know, what gave me the courage. [all laugh] Göring was standing there, he was unable to say anything. He looked at me, he turned around and [unclear], trying to restrain.
I: That is legend, sir, it is legend now.
AG: But, I never did get the Spitfire. Mölders did get the engines, but I never got. But I was not punished, [unclear], I was not punished, I expected.
I: You were respected for us. In your opinion, if Leigh-Mallory had controlled 11 Group with his big wing tactics and Keith Park had controlled 12 Group in the battle of Britain, the two group commanders, do you think the outcome would have been the same?
AG: Ja, this is, as I said, true English question. I know this and I believe it would have been good to have a bigger formation than only one wing, only one squadron. But not the only group in one wing. So wings with forty, more or less, forty aircraft or twenty to forty, that would be the best in my opinion.
I: Why were Messerschitt 109s not fitted with dropable fuel tanks during the battle of Britain?
AG: That was a real mistake, absolutely was forgotten or they were not available, we have used in Spain already as I told you, but for the 109 we did not, we did not [unclear]
I: And yet it would have helped your range.
AG: It would have helped but we would have, had to drop the tanks already when we came over England.
I: Yes.
AG: Because the dogfight, fighter against fighter, with drop tanks ist not very [unclear]. So later on when we got them, Göring extended an order not to drop the tanks, only when we were attacked.
I: One of the major factors was that the Luftwaffe didn’t concentrate its attack on the communications network and particularly the radar stations. Why was that so?
AG: A mistake.
I: Again a mistake.
AG: Absolutely a big mistake.
I: You knew about them.
AG: Ja, we knew of them, we had photos and it was a mistake. It was a mistake to finish the attack against Fighter Command was a mistake also, we should have continued. Ensure the british fighters did not come up when we came only by fighter. We had to use some bombers to go with us, to drop some bombs, to force the british fighters to come up. But to switch over from the battle against Fighter Command to the attacks on London was a terrible mistake.
I: How would you compare the Messerschmitt 109e with the Mark I Spitfire and Hurricane? I believe yours actually had Mickey Mouse on its, why did you have Mickey Mouse as your logo?
AG: When I was in Spain, Mickey Mouse had just come up everywhere and one of the pilots already in operations had the Mickey Mouse. And I did like this, I said, I will take the Mickey Mouse also, modified it a little bit and then I was told I should not use the Mickey Mouse because it was an American.
I: Yes, quite.
AG: Toy and this did make me decide to have it at all, to keep it and I kept it all the time.
I: Yes, indeed.
AG: I still today in my car [laughs].
I: And how do you think the 109 compared to the Spitfire then? The 109e?
AG: The e was not the best, the g was later better, g4. The Messerschmitt was, besides bad conditions in taking off and landing, based on this narrow undercarriage. The Me 109 had only one advantage, that was the fuel injection of the engine. We could easily use, manoeuvre was negative g, [unclear]
I: Yes.
AG: And the engine would drive perfectly, would not stop. We knew it was the carburator immediately when you get negative g and it stops. So, we could, when we were fired, we dropped only the nose down, and always more down and we could escape. This was a advantage. In other flying conditions both types, the Spitfire and the 109 were more or less equal. Acceleration. Manouvreability was better in the Spitfire, the Spitfire had a lower wingload, had a lower wingload and was better in manoeuvre, but acceleration were more or less the same.
I: Yes. I understand, Sir, that you had three brothers who were also fighter pilots with the Luftwaffe. Did they see service throughout the war with you?
AG: Ja, Ja. First came my younger brother to my wing. He started as a anti-aircraft and he was unhappy there, I took him out and he got a special training and then he came to my wing. And he became very soon a very capable, very good fighter pilot, very good. He had in his time 57 victories between b7, four-engine B-17s, was a high number. And he got the Ritterkreuz, this decoration we had. And my younger brother, the youngest brother, he had some difficulties, he came also from the anti-aircraft and had also a special training. I took him in my wing and in the beginning he had very high difficulties and he asked me to help him. So, I went with him to his 109 and he was sitting in the aircraft, immediately I saw he was sitting in the wrong way in the cockpit. When you had not the right position, then, the, what is when you are shooting?
I: Gunsight.
AG: Gunsight. Gunsight. He was sitting wrong behind the gunsight and this resulted in a mistake of his balance, of his shooting.
I: Yes.
AG: So, I corrected this [unclear] he got in the aircraft and from one day to the other he shot up.
I: Really?
AG: He was so happy. I also. He was a very young fellow, he died with twentythree years, he had 17 victories. And the elder one, he was, was a bad fighter. He was really a bad fighter, he wasn’t able to do anything, he was hopeless, so I managed to get him to the air reconnaissance 109. He flew there but he was not successful [unclear].
I: Did the two other brothers today survive the war with you?
AG: Only the elder, only the elder one but in the mean time he died also. Ten years ago.
I: Alright. I understand that at one time your crew chief was actually given a rocket for saving your life. What’s the story behind that?
AG: He one time did install an additional
I: Armour plate
AG: Plate,
I: Armour?
AG: Armour, armour plate behind me. And this armour blade went over my head and he didn’t tell me when I crossed the cockpit and were taking off, I shut the roof and I hit my head terribly and I blamed him: ‘You did not tell me you installed this’. ‘Wait, when I’m back I will tell you something’. And during this mission, I was shot down and I got an impact on this plate, exactly on this plate. [everybody laughs] So I didn’t blame him, I gave him zweihundert Marks and a special leave.
I: Yes. There is one well-known photograph of your Messerschmitt with a modification of a gunsight. It’s a well-known photograph.
AG: Was a mistake.
I: Was it?
AG: Was absolute a mistake. I thought I could use it for shooting on a longer distance but I learned immediately it is good for nothing, it wasn’t even good to identify the planes. When you have a plane in front, sometimes it is difficult to decide is it 109, or is it Spitfire. So, I thought when I looked through this, I can make it out [unclear] you cannot get it concentrated in anything so I decided to get [unclear]. But this aircraft, many times it has been photographed and many times on many photos it appears with the gunsight. We had not, we had a simple gunsight I have to [unclear] this was a fixed gunsight but what we had needed was a gunsight which was directed by
I: Gyro,
AG: BY gyro,
I: By gyroscope.
AG: By gyro. This we have needed terribly. We got it finally late in ’44 but it didn’t work properly. So this was an advantage on the british you had this gyroscopic gunsight, which made shooting in terms much easier.
I: Without Operation Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, would the American 8th Air Force and Bomber Command, in your opinion, have been able to sustain the bomber offensive?
AG: No, no. We were already so much beaten at this time, we would have more fighters available for the air defense and the losses would have been higher on the other side but we could, would not have been able to stop the air offensive. The western allies, the English, the British, they did a very clever thing, to split up the air offensive in day and night offensive and the british concentrated completely on the night. This was very clever, very clever. So, we had to build up a nightfighter airforce, nightfighter force, which did not exist at the beginning of the war. Göring said: ‘Nightfighters? We don’t need them. It will never be a night bombing’. So, when he made the decision, it was a decision, it was [unclear] this. He did not accept anything what was critical or negative of the airforce, everything was first class what he did.
I: Were you ever in charge of the night fighters?
AG: Ja, I was in charge and this after the catastrophe of Hamburg. In this case, Kammhuber, general Kammhuber was responsible for the night fighters and he was a very stupid man, he didn’t fly himself and he gave orders which the night fighters didn’t accept anymore. He was using one night fighter against the incoming bombers and he could only guide one fighter. And at this time, when the Bomber Command switched over to the bomber stream, all the night fighters wanted to follow the stream, they could see it by night, depending from the visibility but with lighting from the ground and with the fire over the towns, our night fighters could see the bomber stream and by the bombers they shoot their fire, they could follow this stream but Kammhuber did not allow our night fighters to go with the stream, to follow. So, they came, the night fighters came to me and they said: ‘You must help us. Our commander, Kammhuber, he bind us on one radar, in the range of one radar, in a circle of 120 km, he bind us and we want to follow’. We used Window the first time in Hamburg and this did lead to a complete catastrophe of Kammhuber’s tactic. So I had to tell this Göring and Kammhuber was released of the [unclear] and he went over to fleet commander, airfleet commander North, 5th airfleet.
I: In Norway.
AG: Norway. And he blamed this on me, Kammhuber, they said. He didn’t say to me but he was convinced I had originated this trouble. And I had, so we had not a very good relationship [unclear]. And after the war Blank was the first man who did set up the beginning of the air force and Blank wanted to have me as the first commander of the air force. And he invited me to come and talk to me and he said: ‘I did not want to have high ranking officers of World War I in the new air force, they are too old. So, everybody has voted for you, you should be the first commander of the air force, when you accept it’. And I said: ‘I am coming from Argentina, I have no idea what is going on here, I must be, first get a complete information what is done, what is planned and so on’. And then finally this was done and I decided to go up to do it, that [unclear] did say this to Blank. Then came a stop on the rebuilding of our new air force because the French blocked, they blocked this, was the European Defense Committee, Community and [unclear] came up this time. And the French did stop the European Defense Committee. So, and this was one time delayed and then this time Kammhuber came as the first commander of the air force because Blank did change against Strauss, Strauss being Bavarian he brought Kammhuber with him, who was also Bavarian and he was [unclear] over. Kammhuber did build up the air force. Was a nice story. When Kammhuber was in charge of the night fighters, I had to see him in order to use his night organisation also during daytime. Kammhuber did denie this completely, he said: ‘No, I have set up for the night fighters and you are day fighter, and they will set up your organisation, radar and everything’. And I said: ‘No, that is not true, we are not so rich that we can do this. This is a hotel with a hotel organisation, we have a night porter and a day porter, you are the night porter, I am the day porter’. We blamed for hours, we could not convince, and then he said: ‘ [unclear] I will show a complete new radar installation I have just set up’. And we went in his car, a big Mercedes, open Mercedes, his big flag as commanding general on front and there was a soldier of the infantry [unclear] He blocked us and said: ‘Your passport’. Kammhuber said: ‘Don’t you know me?’ ‘No. Passport’. [unclear] said: ‘Do you know this flag? I am your commanding officer’. He said: ‘This can be said by everybody. Passport.’ Kammhuber made a head like this and finally he said: ‘Do you know him?’. He looked at me and said: ‘Ah, I believe I have seen him on a [unclear], on a newspaper, in front of a newspaper, a big photo. I think that this is Major Mölders, then you can go’. [unclear] He was [unclear] also, Major Mölders.
I: I’ve been asked by some of the veterans who flew from the Yorkshire fields, where we are from, from 5 Group and 6 Group veterans, what were your feelings towards the night bomber crews, when you were general of night fighters?
AG: I didn’t understand too much about night fighting, I must say this, I’m a complete day fighter, and [coughs] we had a saying as dayfighters: the night is not good for fighter pilots, the night is good for bitches, but not for fighters. But really this was a good organisation and also the guiding systems we had in the night fighters they were very fine, very very fine. And the night fighters did have a better fighter, leading fighter, guiding organisation than any fighters had but they did not need it.
I: This was Wild Boar and Tame Boar.
AG: Ja.
I: After the raid on Schweinfurt-Regensburg, did you think the 8th Air Force could be stopped by the Luftwaffe?
AG: No, I did not believe this, there were too many mistakes done and too many things were not performed. When Hamburg occurred, everybody, Göring did call a big meeting and all important men were present at this meeting. There was a unique opinion, we have now to change the priority and we have to give the air defense first priority. And we have to stop everything else but we have to concentrate all our power on air defense. Göring was convinced and he decided to bring this up to Hitler immediately. This meeting was in Hitler’s headquarters, Wolfsschanze in East Prussia. So Göring went to Hitler. He came back after one hour, he was completely destroyed, he broke down in his quarter and finally he ordered [unclear] and myself to come and he said: ‘Hitler has not accepted our plan. Hitler has decided to build up a new attack air force, a new bomber air force to bomb England. Bombing can only be stopped by bombing, not by air defense’. And he had explained this to me and Hitler has right. He fall down completely, he is right as he is always right. The way through air defense is too far away and we were stopped, we were blocked from continue bombing aim. So Peltz, general Peltz, a young fellow was made the attack guidance, the attack commander in England. This was immediately after Hamburg.
I: 1943.
AG: Ja. Unbelievable, unbelievable.
I: Was this the beginning of what they call the Bedeker Raids?
AG: Ja.
I: Where they used the Bedeker Atlas to bomb.
AG: Ja.
I: May I ask you general?
AG: Göring was not stupid, he was a clever man. He knew this was wrong, but he has never resisted Hitler. When Hitler gave an order, he immediately was of the same opinion, because Göring was not a man for combat, was not a man for fight, was not a man for war. Göring wanted to continue his life as the most richest man in Europe, he wanted to be brilliant and he didn’t like the war at all.
I: Without a western front to defend, could Operation Barbarossa have succeded?
AG: Could?
I: If Germany had not been fighting on two fronts, could you have succeeded with the attack on the Soviet Union?
AG: With the attack on the Soviet Union. It is difficult to decide but we were close to win the battle, but we have been blocked again by beginning the offensive against Russia by the Italians. When you have the Italians as your allies, you have 50% of the war already lost, you we can be sure. [UI and UI2 laugh] Really. The Italians have started the war in Africa, so this did force us to go to Africa. Then, Germany wanted to take over Malta. Mussolini said: ‘No, Malta, we will take over. You can take Greece’. And we took Greece with much losses and it was not good for nothing, I know. And the Russian campaign has been delayed by the Italians again, this time by the war in the Balcans, by attacking Albania. And we had to go to the Balcans. This [unclear] a delay of half a year. Again our allies deterred us. So I still am going to say, if we could have won the war, I think we could have broken the power of Russia, we could have. We were close to Moskow and if we would have started half a year earlier, everything would have been much more in favour.
I: A huge country of course.
AG: Ja.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst
AG: I knew the war was lost, was probably or was not to be won, there is a difference, already in 19, in the second war Russian campaign, this was
I: 1942. 1942.
AG: 1942. In this year I remember conversations I had with the chief of staff of the Air force, Jeschonnek, who told me: ‘You can believe me the war cannot be won anymore’. I said: ‘I agree competely’. But we were not allowed to talk about this, to tell this anybody. And we, ourselves, we fighters, young people, we knew the war could not be won anymore but we hoped, did heartly hope, that the war could be brought to an better end. This means, the unconditional surrender condition, this was something we are fighting against up to the last man.
I: You were a pallbearer at the funeral of Ernst Udet. When did you realise that he had committed suicide and what are your memories of Udet?
AG: When we at the funeral of Udet, we were told by Göring, Göring could difficultly close his mouth if he wanted to talk. So, he did tell us what has happened and some weeks, three weeks before, I was with Udet one night in the special train of Göring in East Prussia. And Udet was completely broken, completely broken, he was blamed to be responsible for the armament which were not going up and [unclear] and this was true. Udet was responsible for the development, for test, and for armament, for building, for the industry, and this he could not do, he was not able to do this at all, he could not organise the industry and he did not have the help to do this correctly. And therefore, he missed completely, lost completely this order to build up the industry. But this was not the responsibility of Udet, this was the responsibility of Göring to make him responsible for this. There were other people, Milch is an example, was absolutely more capable to do this and the production went up when Milch took over the post of Udet. So, is this the answer?
I: What are your memories of him as a person?
AG: Oh, he was a wonderful man. He was a wonderful, charming man, he was an artist. He was joking, he was very much liked by everybody. He was a great flier, pilot and you could have a lot of joke with him. And we did have.
UI. Yes.
AG: He did like the whiskeys.
I: And the ladies?
AG: Also.
I: [laughs] I understand that Douglas Bader was a guest of Geschwader 26 for a while.
AG: Ja. I have the date here when he was shot up, that was in 1943. There was an incoming English Royal Air Force attack, Blenheims with escort of Spitfires, and we had a big fight over the Pas de Calais. This was my wing and the wing Richthofen, but in this case only my wing 26 was involved, we did shot down I think 6 Spitfires and 2 or 3 Blenheims, I shot a Blenheim down. And I shot, I combat also with Spitfires but I think [unclear] off 3 Blenheims and 6 Spitfires downed. And in the afternoon one of my group commanders phoned me and said: ‘We have shot down one incredible man, an English wing commander, by the name Bader, he said, Bader said wanted only to be called Bader. He has two wooden legs and you must invite him to come immediately, bring him my invitation. And Bader had to bail out and he left one of his wooden legs in the Spit and the Spit landed with out him and my mechanics could repair this wooden leg a little bit. So, I was called some days later, Bader can come now and visit you. And I did send him my biggest car and a good looking, first Lieutenant. Bader came on. I had informed myself a little bit about him and it was absolutely a great impression, from the first moment, this stepped on his two wooden legs. And Bader said to me: ‘Can you send a message to our side that I am safe in your hands and I wanted to have a second set of my legs, which I have in my [unclear] and a good pipe and tobacco’. I said:’ Yes, I will try it’. So, then I phoned Göring in the evening and said: ‘We have Wing Commander Bader here, a man with two wooden legs, unbelievable man, sympathic and [unclear] the rules [unclear] immediately’. And I said: ‘We wanted, or he, he wanted that we communicate to the other side, to the English side, he is in our hands and he wants to have a spare legs’. And Göring said: ‘You can do this, we have done this in world war one, many times, you can do this, I like this, I like this’, the meaning was [unclear]. So, we put it on the way of the international sea rescue. It was confirmed from the other side, I communicate this to Göring and he said: ‘How do you want to do this?’ I said: ‘We are waiting now that the English [unclear] and then we make a proposal, we make an open space with an airfield and we guarantee a safe landing and coming to our side and of course we will make some photos’. [laughs]
I: Doctor Goebbels [laughs]
AG: This, our message was confirmed through the other side and nothing happened two, three days and then came in the same way, in the same way, the same frequency, a message: in this present attack we are doing, we drop not only bombs, we drop also a case with the spare legs from Bader. They dropped our airfield [unclear], no, not [unclear], Saint-Omer, dropped a case with a parachute, I have photos of this, there were the spare legs, that was not very nice, we were disappointed. So Bader many time has visited me, for tea and then I showed him the aircraft from my wing and showed especially mine, my 109 and he wanted to step out, he mounted the cockpit immediately with his wooden legs, this is unbelievable. And as he was sitting in the aircraft, Heidi, you must being the photos, and he said, I showed him everything, explained [unclear] please can you start the engine [all laugh] all around the place, only around the place. I said, no wing commander, let’s stop this nonsense because I have two 109s for my own personal use and if you take off I would have to follow you. And I would have to shot at you again and I do not want to do this. He was laughing. Of course he has never expected that we would start it. Then he was brought back to the hospital and he made an escape from the hospital, on the sheets from the prisoners, he did borrow the sheets and came down from the second floor to the ground and the last sheet did broke and he did fall down and he hurt one leg again and he had to go the hospital. So, he was immediately captured again. When I heard this, that he had escaped again, I was [unclear] because I had shown him to much [unclear]. I would have had [unclear] perhaps but he came back and he did make another escape. This man was unbelievable.
I: On that engagement when Bader was shot down by your Geschwader, there was another pilot and our research indicates that you shot him down and he lives in Sheffield, which is quite near to the Yorkshire museum. He is still alive today and he sends his best wishes to you.
AG: Oh, thank you. That was on this occasion?
I: Yes. Buck Kassen was his name and he was shot down and made prisoner of war the same time as Douglas Bader. And we interview him as part of this tape.
AG: What is the name of this Spitfire pilot shot down in?
I: [unclear]
AG: My victory 56. He calls himself your victory 56.
I: [unclear]
FS: I’ll take some.
I: May I ask you why did most of the Luftwaffe’s very high scoring aces, such as Hartmann, Barckhorn, Rall, why did they fly the Messerschmitt 109 rather than the Focke Wulff 190?
AG: In the beginning, the 190 was not available, the 190 was only available for wings from April ‘43, so up to this date they could only use the 109. The 190 came later, it was not, was not ready for being used by the operational units.
I: But even later, even later many of the aces still preferred the 109.
AG: Maybe. I personally flew the 190 the last months of the war and my latest was the 262 of course.
I: Yes.
AG: But the 190 was much better for attacks on bombers. The 109 was absolutely better for fighting fights against fighters. Danke. The 190 had a lot of protection against the bomber fighter, the Spit [unclear] engine gave you a feeling of safety.
I: Why did the death of one man, general Wever, bring about the scrapping of the german strategic bomber program and what were Göring’s and Jeschonnek’s views after the battle of Britain?
AG: Wever was an army general but as an army general he had a great understanding for air war and Wever was also a follower of Douhet, this Italian general, the inventor of the strategic air war. And Wever did promote the four-engine big bomber, he did promote this. Unfortunately, he killed himself in a flying accident. He started a Heinkel 70 with the rollers blocked in Dresden, came down immediately. If he would have lived perhaps we would have had a four bomber air force also. I believe this. But then Udet went to the States and he was convinced by the American navy air force, which were, they were using these dive bombers, and Udet was convinced by them that was the way for people which have not big reserves on raw material, like Germany, to get the same result by picking up pinpoint targets. And really Udet did influence the air force, the top air force men, including Göring, that this was the way for Germany to have the Stukas instead of the four-engine bomber. [unclear] we can get the same result if we had the power station of a big plant or we destroyed your plant. This is the same result. So, at this time, an order was given that all the German aircraft, even the twin-engine Junkers 88, could have been used, should have been used in dive attacks. Also the Heinkel 177, which was the German four-engine bomber, in which two engines were blocked, bound together, they should also go in dive-bombing, which was a mistake, of course.
I: When you were promoted to general in charge of fighters, sir, how old were you? You were a very young man, I believe. And how do you feel about succeeding Mölders?
AG: 29, 29 years and I was practically the immediate successor of Mölders.
I: How did you feel about that, sir?
AG: I was not happy, I was absolutely unhappy in these days because I wanted to continue as wing commander. I was very unhappy in this position. I wanted to fight, only to fly. I already upset with, myself with Göring when I was made wing commander, because I did believe I so much paperwork to do that I could not fly anymore. My intention was to fight.
I: Hitler awarded you the Germany’s highest award for bravery, the diamonds to your knight’s cross following your 94th victory. But I understand there was more to it than just the diamonds. You had quite a collection of diamonds in the end.
AG: Ja. The first diamond I got was the Spanish cross with diamonds. That was a german award very nice with diamonds in the middle. This was awarded, I think, nine times.
I: [unclear]
AG: And next I got the diamonds to the oak leaves to the knight’s cross. And when I got this, Göring did had not seen it before and I was sitting in Göring’s train [unclear] and Göring looked at me and said: ‘Are these the diamonds the Führer gave you as highest german award?’. I said ja. ‘It cannot be’, he said, ‘take it off’. I took it off and gave them to him [unclear]. ‘Terrible, terrible, The Führer knows everything, knows every carrier of the [unclear], of the german army, the german, he knows the complete trajectory, every gun, but diamonds, he has no idea, not enough. I tell you, these are splinters. Little splinters, these are not diamonds. Give it to me, I will, I have a jewelier in Berlin, who will make you another set. You will see what diamonds are looking like’. So I took it off and gave it to him. Some weeks later, I was ordered to come to his house in Carinhall. ‘Galland, look at here, this are the splinters of Hitler, these are the diamonds of Göring, who knows about diamonds?’. So, he gave me both sets back, I had now twice. Then, he must have told this to Hitler because some weeks later I was asked to see Hitler and Hitler said: ‘My dear Galland, finally I’m in a position to award you with the final edition of [unclear] decoration. Look at this’. He gave me this case. ‘Take a look, [unclear]’. I did not know for what is this order to come, I had the diamonds from Göring, the big ones. And he said: ‘Can you see the difference? These are splinters’. ‘This is obsolete’. ‘No, you can wear this every day. They are expensive, the big ones here. When you are flying daily, take the other ones. The splinters’. I was about to explode. He gave me both sets back, I did three times now. And then came a time, I was so upset with Göring, I had so big fights with him. And he had in one big meeting in Munich Schleissheim, there were about forty officers in this meeting and he blamed the fighters in a terrible way. He said we were not anymore brave, we were scapegoats and good for nothing, we were decorated highly at the beginning of the war and we did not pay for it. And most of the pilots had with lies made their high decorations over England. When he said this, I took my decoration off, I was sitting opposite to him and hit it on the table. Göring finished this meeting and he tried to calm me down, but I said: ‘No, you should refuse this [unclear]’. I said: ‘Göring, I cannot do it, I cannot do it, [unclear] I cannot take my decoration on anymore’. And I did hang this number three [unclear] in my office in Berlin and this Olympic game installation and hang it on the neck of the wooden [unclear]and It was hanging there, I didn’t take my decoration for, I think, five months. And then Hitler one day saw a photo of mine on a newspaper, Berliner Illustrierte, and said:’Why is Galland not showing his decoration?’. And Hitler was told the Royal Air Force was bombing Berlin. And Hitler said: ‘You should [unclear] immediately and get a new [unclear]. I had to see Hitler without. And Hitler said finally: ‘Bad luck, but you have a new set’. But this is was number four. [laughs] And by the end of this war I was wearing this number four and I took this as prisoner of war with me, until we were asked to take it away. But I could keep this with me and [unclear] till today. That is the only set. The other sets, one was burned, two sets, [unclear] was liberated at the end of the war by the americans,
I: They might be somewhere in America still, probably.
AG: I talked to one man who has one set.
I: Really? Amazing story. You were responsible for the fighter screen when the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen made the famous Channel dash. How was this success achieved under the eyes of the RAF?
AG: I was made responsible for this fighter escort, is true and I was in a meeting with Hitler and Hitler at the end of the meeting he took me away and said: ‘Do you believe this operation can be performed?’ And I told him: ‘It is possible, but the first condition, first and most important condition is complete, this operation is completely secret. And the English should not know about the operation, should not know when is going on and so on, completely secret and Hitler said: ‘Yes, I agree 100%’. ‘But’, I said, ‘there is a lot of risk in war’. Hitler said: ‘In all my operations, the last years, the biggest risk was the [unclear], it was true, he always was playing with this risk, in an incredible [unclear]. Hitler agreed and when the operation were prepared very much in detail and seriously, very seriously. And I invented the callname, the codename for this operation.
I: Really?
AG: I invented Donnerkeil. This was not accepted by the navy. The navy called it, what was it?
I: Cerberus.
AG: Cerberus, Cerberus, they called it Cerberus. And this was good and in so far as the British secret service knew about this was [unclear], not in detail but they knew, we were preparing it. They did believe this were two different operations, they did not bring the two operations together, so this was an advantage. And then our highest chief of the communication, Martini, he did use for the first time a big system of disturbing the English radar and this disturbation gave the English the impression we were coming in with big [unclear], with big offensive formations and this did help a lot. And the weather did help a lot, it was a miserable weather and on the English side, not in France, nothing, this did help us also. So, we had finally the success based on a lot of luck, lot of luck and our fighters were brave, fighting very very brave. I remember I had my two brothers in this operation and they told me.
I: And a very british Victoria cross was ordered in that operation too. What are your memories of the ace Hans-Joachim Marseille? And how did you regard him as a fighter ace, in comparison to Hartmann?
AG: In my book, the virtuoso, [unclear] but he was a single fighter, also was not a [unclear], nobody could follow him, he did fly like Richthofen, more than Richthofen
I: As a loner, as we would say.
AG: He was not able to guide four fighters there. And he got so impacts I think in his last [unclear] and he did make a mistake by escaping from the aircraft. He didn’t make a [unclear] but he did in the beginning. And was pulling out and he hit the tail. Later, I personally did escape twice by our new method took the nose up, engine down, nose up and then we pushed the bottom very strongly unclear], the aircraft did make this motion and in this situation the pilot was ejected really, the pilot was flying up ten meters, thirty feet and this was this [unclear] method risky.
AG: Ja, we’re finished now.
I: We could move to the end of the war. So, Germany’s experience with jet fighters where of course the Messerschmitt 262 was the first operational combat jet fighter in the world. Do you feel that that aircraft, if it had been available in sufficient numbers in 1943, could have altered the bombing offensive? And what was it like to fly? What was it as an aeroplane?1
AG: I’ve known this airplane I think in June ‘43 the first time and I have made a report on this, I have a copy of this. On Saturday the 22 of May ’43. I’ve flown this aircraft in Ausgburg, taking off in Ausgburg, is a Messerschmitt plant and this a report about this first flight addressed to Feldmarschal Milch. He was responsible man for armament and for development. And I am saying, this aircraft [unclear] us complete new tactical possibilities, this is a revolution and I recommend therefore to stop the messerschnitt 262 development completely and to take this out of the plan. Concentrate only on the Focke Wulff 190 D development and all capacity and concentrate from now on to the 262. This will give us greatest chances supposed that the allies, the Americans and the English [unclear] continuing their operation on piston, only on piston driven fighter base and bombers. WE knew that they were also developing the Meteor and did not know when they were ready. But the 262 would have given us the biggest chance if we would have the time. The development of this project was stopped and delayed, later delayed by order of Hitler, because he was of the opinion that the war was shortly before to be won and developments would take more than one year to be finished, would come too late [unclear]. That was his argument. And without this [unclear] development, which was done by Messerschmitt and by Henkel, was done without being known by Hitler, was done in secret [unclear] of Hitler. Only in the last months of the war, when the aircraft was there, when the RAF made this first light tests, and this report, then he decided to use it only, only as [unclear] against the invasion. This is the aircraft, with which I will fight the forthcoming invasion, he said in my presence, this is the aircraft. I order this aircraft to not be used in any other form and should not be imagined in another operation as [unclear].
I: What was your opinion, sir, of the two other jet fighters that did see operational service or limited, the 162, the Heinkel 162 and of course the incredible Messerschmitt 163 Komet, the jet, rocket jet fighter?
AG: The 163, the rocket fighter was already under development and I knew about this and this would have been a compliment for the anti-aircraft, only for the defense of certain objects, like the derrick oil plants. I was of the opinion that this plane could be used for this object protection with a certain success. It would have been that a lower flight plane target with flight time, with power was only 6 or 8 minutes but the aircraft was then so high up that it could make one or two attacks and then go down. This was only an additional aircraft for the air defense but the 162, this was a political development. It was supposed to set the Hitler
I: Hitler Youth.
AG: Hitler Youth on these planes then only with the training of gliders, which was completely wrong, completely wrong, I was against this development because I said youngsters cannot fly this plane with success, this is absolutely impossible. Secondly, the engine BMW 003 is not so practical, [unclear] that it can be used only one engine on one aircraft, we need two engines. And certainly the 163 with this engine behind the pilots and without the exit seat, this would result, every pilot who tried to bail out would land in the engine. So, I have fought against this plane because the concept was only based on a political wrong thinking, absolutely wrong thinking. And this should have been performed and executed by a, the youngsters and responsible for this was the fieldmarshal or the general, colonel general Keller.
I: From the first world war.
AG: Ja, from the first world war. And I took Keller with me to Nowotny on the day in which there was a , was shot down, hit the ground. In order, my intention was to show him what a jet operation does mean, more complicated than this and at the end of the war, when I was leading my JW 44 in Munich Ried, two or three handful of this 162 came to me and said we want to fly with you. They didn’t have any success at all. So this was, the 162 was a complete wrong concept from the beginning. A political development.
UI. We’re getting near the end, sir, but can you very briefly tell us about JV 44? Is it correct that all the pilots have the night’s cross?
AG: No, no, this is not correct. We had several pilots with the knights cross and most their officers and at the end of the war, pilots who were in hospitals or were in, wie heisst das [unclear]? the recovery stations, they came to me and said:’We want to be, we want to fly under you’, they all said: ‘we want to fight the end of the days with you’. And I have accepted this. So, in the last week or two last weeks, I only accepted such pilots who wanted to continue to fly. Pilots who said, [unclear] for family reasons or something like this and I do not want to fly anymore, he could do this, he would not be punished at all. This were only Freiwillige, free will pilots, [unclear]
I: Volunteers.
AG: Volunteers, volunteers. And Steinhoff had this terrible accident, he was the man who was responsible for operations in my group 44, strong and he believes he had hit a [unclear]. I believe he pushed the wrong button, Steinhoff was used to take off with flaps in and only when he reached, came close to the take off speed, then he dropped the flaps, this [unclear] a little bit [unclear] the take off. But in the Messerschmitt are two buttons, one is for undercarriage, one is for flaps and they are close together, you can see on old cockpits. I think, yes, he pushed the undercarriage. Then he tried to take off, he made a jump, restored its speed, came down with too early engines about 2000 feet after he came lifted from the ground, came down, he hit the ground and burned out.
I: Did you see the crash?
AG: Ja. I was number one, he was number four in my wing. This was the last, my last mission. Finnegan believes he should, this American guy, he came, I shot down two more others in this mission and I didn’t know if the second one was already finished so I made a turn, looked at this [unclear] and [unclear] gave me some shots [unclear].
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions.
AG: Finnegan or when the Americans say, you were shot down by Finnegan, that is not true, I could manage to get home, one engine was hit, ja, that is correct but I could manage to come down and manage a perfect landing with one engine on my base on which I had taken off, is not a victory.
I: Not at all, an American-type victory.
UI2: Unconfirmed probably.
[All laugh]
I: Five more questions, if I may. You are now 82 years of age?
AG: Ja, unfortunately.
I: How do you feel about the events of 55 years ago, during the battle of Britain, when you were fighting for your life, all this time, all this long distance from battle, how do you feel?
AG: At this time when this had happened, we did never believe we would survive. Even in the last days of the war, when I flew the 262, I didn’t believe I would survive the war. I was real ready with my life, had a good life and [unclear] success, [unclear] success in my life and I always wanted to be better than others and I got the feeling to be better than others [unclear]. So, I am thankful for my life and I think it was an extraordinary class of life which I performed. And I thank God for being with you now and have survived all situations. And I have the experience of what I say. I have had so much responsibility during my military life and when I saw the terrible destructions of the allied airwar in Germany and I saw the people who did suffer in such terrible form, I had only the wish and the intention to fight up to the last minute in order to compensate, not to win the war.
I: General Adolf Galland, this has been a real pleasure, sir, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Marvellous sir.
I: Thank you sir. You are part of aviation history.
AG: [unclear]
I: Yes, yes, we do, we have some presentations for you.
I: On the way here, sir, I had to pinch myself to make sure that it is real, that I am meeting Adolf Galland. A small gift, sir, on behalf of the Yorshire air Museum.
AG: Thank you.
I: Our air museum plan.
AG: I’ve got quite a collection already.
I: I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]I’m quite sure you must have.
AG: Thank you.
I: The history of our county town of York. You to have a look at.
AG: Oh ja.
I: We have to sign it.
AG: You know there is a collection of signatures there.
I: Yes. We are going to sign these as well.
I: These are other people at the museum.
AG: Oh ja.
I: Would you be so kind as to sign some bits for ourselves, sir?
AG: Ja.
I: [unclear]]]>
eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Royal Air Force. Fighter Command]]> Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe]]> Great Britain]]> Germany]]> France]]> Spain]]> Norway]]> Malta]]> Russia (Federation)]]> Germany--Hamburg]]>
Marco Dalla Bona]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Cordenons]]> 1943-09-08]]> Filippo Andi]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Po River Valley]]> Italy--Pavia]]> 1943-09]]> 1943-09-08]]> Filippo Andi]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Po River Valley]]> Italy--Voghera]]> 1944-08]]> Alessandro Pesaro]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Po River Valley]]> Italy--Milan]]> 1942]]> 1943]]> 1943-08]]> 1944-10-20]]> Filippo Andi]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Po River Valley]]> Italy--Pavia]]> 1945-04-26]]> Peter Schulze]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> deu]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Germany]]> Germany--Pforzheim]]> 1945-02-23]]> 1944-04-01]]> Zeno Gaiaschi]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Milan]]> Italy--Brescia]]> 1942-10-04]]> 1944-09-10]]> 1943-09-08]]> Zeno Gaiaschi]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo]]> Peter Schulze]]> ita]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Italy]]> Italy--Milan]]> Italy--Santa Margherita Ligure]]> Italy--Po River Valley]]> 1940]]> 1944-02-27]]> 1943-09-08]]> Peter Schulze]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> deu]]> Sound]]> Civilian]]> Germany]]> Germany--Dresden]]> 1945-02-13]]> Adam Purcell]]> IBCC Digital Archive]]> Peter Schulze]]> Pending review]]> Pending OH summary]]> eng]]> Sound]]> Royal Air Force]]> Royal Air Force. Bomber Command]]> Royal Australian Air Force]]> Australia]]> Canada]]> Great Britain]]> Germany]]> Alberta--Edmonton]]> Germany--Dresden]]> Northern Territory--Darwin]]> United States]]> Northern Territory]]> Alberta]]> 1940]]> 1941]]> 1942]]> 1943]]> 1944]]> 1945]]>